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					First Session, Forty-ninth Parliament, 2008-10

 Parliamentary Debates

       Tuesday, 27 July 2010
              (Week 49, Volume 665)

                 WELLINGTON, NEW ZEALAND
 Published under the authority of the House of Representatives—2010
                                          TUESDAY, 27 JULY 2010

                                           TABLE OF CONTENTS

  Question No. 12 to Minister, 22 July............................................................... 12655

  Questions to Ministers—
    Human Rights—United Nations Special Rapporteur’s Report................... 12655
    Costs and Prices—Effect of Government Policies ..................................... 12656
    Economic Growth—Challenges ................................................................. 12659
    Mining in Conservation Areas—GDP Growth Projections ........................12660
    Drink-driving—Initiatives to Address ........................................................ 12661
    Health Services—Cuts ................................................................................12663
    Resource Management Act Reforms—Role in Economic Recovery ......... 12664
    Employment—Workplace Access for Union Representatives ...................12665
    Public Transport, Auckland—Rail System ................................................. 12666
    Crime, Organised—Police Operations........................................................12668
    Foreshore and Seabed Act Review—Prime Minister’s Statements............ 12668
    Income Gap, Parity with Australia—Milestones ........................................ 12669

  In Committee—
     Vote Office of the Clerk..............................................................................12670
     Vote Parliamentary Service ........................................................................ 12670
     Vote Audit...................................................................................................12670
     Vote Ombudsmen ....................................................................................... 12670
     Vote Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment............................ 12670
     Vote Communications Security and Intelligence........................................12670
     Vote Ministerial Services............................................................................12670
     Vote Prime Minister and Cabinet................................................................12670
     Vote Security Intelligence...........................................................................12685
     Vote Tourism ..............................................................................................12685
     Vote Finance ...............................................................................................12688
     Vote Economic Development ..................................................................... 12697
     Vote Energy ................................................................................................12704
     Vote Commerce ..........................................................................................12707
     Vote Justice .................................................................................................12707
     Vote State-Owned Enterprises ....................................................................12711
     Vote Health ................................................................................................. 12714
     Vote State Services ..................................................................................... 12722
     Vote ACC....................................................................................................12722
     Vote Climate Change .................................................................................. 12722
     Vote Environment ....................................................................................... 12722
     Vote Corrections .........................................................................................12727
     Vote Police..................................................................................................12733
     Vote Serious Fraud Office ..........................................................................12735
     Vote Veterans’ Affairs—Defence Force..................................................... 12735
     Vote Veterans’ Affairs—Social Development ........................................... 12735
     Vote Education............................................................................................12735
27 Jul 2010              Amended Answers to Oral Questions                        12655

                              TUESDAY, 27 JULY 2010
  Mr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.
                         Question No. 12 to Minister, 22 July
   Hon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister of Transport): I seek leave under Standing Order
349 to make a personal explanation in relation to a reply I gave in the House last
Thursday, 22 July, in respect of the cost of subsidising passenger train services between
Hamilton and Auckland.
   Mr SPEAKER: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is no
   Hon STEVEN JOYCE: Last Thursday, 22 July, I stated in reply to a supplementary
question on possible passenger train services between Hamilton and Auckland: “I am
doing this from memory, but my understanding is that the cost of subsidising a
passenger on a train from Hamilton to Auckland is something like $15,000 or $16,000
per trip.” The answer should have been, in fact, per year, rather than per trip. But no
matter which way we look at it, it remains an extraordinary amount of money per
passenger. Thank you.
                        QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER
                             QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
             Human Rights—United Nations Special Rapporteur’s Report
   1. RAHUI KATENE (Māori Party—Te Tai Tonga) to the Prime Minister: How
will his commitment to addressing “the challenges of our shared future as New
Zealanders” in respect of Te Tiriti o Waitangi address the challenge left by the United
Nations special rapporteur on the situation of the human rights and fundamental
freedoms of indigenous peoples, of “the extreme disadvantage in the social and
economic conditions of the Māori people”?
   Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister): The Government is doing a lot to address the
issues that the member refers to. We have accelerated the Treaty settlement process
towards a goal of settling all claims by 2014. Since November 2008 we have reached 39
significant negotiation milestones, including seven deeds of settlement. That compares
with the previous Labour Government’s average of just 1.6 deeds of settlement per year.
I believe this is an area where New Zealand is a leader, and I note that the special
rapporteur himself acknowledged the significant benefits coming from the settlements
that have already been achieved. The Government has also launched Whānau Ora,
Cabinet has agreed to repeal the Foreshore and Seabed Act, and we have expressed our
support for the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. I could
go on, but I would like to note how much I value the National Party’s confidence and
supply partnership with the Māori Party, and I look forward to working with it to
achieve even more in the future.
   Rahui Katene: How will the Government address the observation of the special
rapporteur on indigenous rights that “the Treaty’s principles appear to be vulnerable to
political discretion, resulting in their perpetual insecurity and instability.”?
   Hon JOHN KEY: The member will be aware that the Government has agreed, as
part of the confidence and supply agreement with the Māori Party, to undertake a
constitutional review. That constitutional review will be a process where we engage
12656                           Questions for Oral Answer                       27 Jul 2010

with all New Zealanders, and, notwithstanding the view that it will be a long
conversation, we look forward to embarking upon that conversation.
   Rahui Katene: What is the intention of the Government in terms of addressing what
the special rapporteur described as the “continued and persistent high levels of
incarceration of Maori individuals.”?
   Hon JOHN KEY: The Government is working hard on that issue. We launched,
some time ago now, a review around the drivers of crime. The Associate Minister of
Corrections works alongside the Minister of Corrections with a special focus on how we
can ensure that fewer Māori go to prison. One of the key ways that we can do that, in
our view, is to work on issues like national standards. We know that if young New
Zealanders cannot read and write properly, they cannot have a future in the modern
economy. That could lead to them being incarcerated.
   Hon Parekura Horomia: Kei tāna kōrero, e pai ana te haere o te mahi umanga
ēngari, nā te pire iwa tekau ngā rā e pana tangata, kei te mahi taumaha me te pouri; e
tere atu te ngarongaro o te mahi mō tātou a ngāi Māori; kei te piki te nama, kei te itiiti te
utu. He aha tāna whakautu ki tenei?
   How can he claim to be addressing the economic conditions of Māori, when the
extension of the 90-day fire-at-will bill will make it harder for Māori to find and hold on
to a job, and when increasing prices are outstripping wage growth, making a bad
economic situation even worse; what is his response to this?
   Hon JOHN KEY: The member is misguided. In fact, the bill will help Māori to find
a job, because it is a policy aimed at opportunity, a policy aimed at giving people a
chance, and a policy aimed at helping in particular young Māori who are locked out of
the labour market, which is why unemployment rates for young Māori are so high. It is
a policy that that member should be embracing, and if he was thinking straight, he
would be doing that.
                      Costs and Prices—Effect of Government Policies
   2. Hon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader—Labour) to the Prime Minister:
What adverse impact on costs and prices, if any, have this Government’s policies had
on New Zealanders?
   Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister): On 28 April of this year the Government
increased the tobacco excise. This was strongly supported by Labour, which said: “This
is a huge step forward in health promotion for all New Zealanders.” From 1 July a
number of sectors, including liquid fossil fuels, came into the emissions trading scheme.
This is expected to have an impact on households of around $3 a week, which, I might
add, is about half the cost of the scheme proposed by Labour. The most important thing
to look at, however, is the overall change in consumer prices across the economy. The
CPI rose only 0.3 percent in the last quarter. Most of that rise was due to tobacco price
increases, leaving annual increases at only 1.8 percent. Members might like to know
that over the last 4 years of the previous Labour Government inflation was never as low
as that. In fact, it did not come to terms even anywhere near that.
   Hon Annette King: When he said at the start of June that “People will be better off,
they just don’t know it yet.”, had he factored in the following price increases that New
Zealanders are experiencing right now: power, petrol, rent, mortgages, accident
compensation levies, interest rates, car registration, dairy products, and even the price of
a pint; if not, why not?
   Hon JOHN KEY: I have only one question: where on earth was that member for the
9 years Labour was in office? Let us just run through a few—
   Hon Annette King: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You heard my question. It
was absolutely straightforward. To start off an answer by talking about the last 9 years
27 Jul 2010                     Questions for Oral Answer                             12657

of the previous Government shows either that the Prime Minister does not have an
   Mr SPEAKER: No, no—the member was doing fine up until that point. The
member will not use a point of order to make that kind of comment. I think it is helpful
when Ministers, including the Prime Minister, answering questions do not ask a
question in response. I am sure that the Prime Minister is perfectly capable of
rephrasing the start of that answer.
   Hon JOHN KEY: Let us just run through a few things for the education of the
Labour members. Electricity prices rose 2.9 percent in the year to May 2010; in the 9
years Labour was in office they rose 72 percent. Petrol is $1.75 a litre; back then, when
Labour was in office, it was $2.11 a litre. The emissions trading scheme added $3 to the
average household per week—
   Hon Annette King: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption]
   Mr SPEAKER: The member is perfectly at liberty to call a point of order, and it will
be heard in silence.
   Hon Annette King: This might be a very good general debate speech from the Prime
   Mr SPEAKER: I want to hear the point of order.
   Hon Annette King: —but it does not address the question I asked the Prime
Minister. He was answering in terms of what Labour did; I asked about what this
Government did.
   Hon Gerry Brownlee: The questioner stood up and read a list of various activities
across the economy, claiming that the costs had risen for New Zealand households. It
was only reasonable for the Prime Minister to then compare those costs to the costs
under the previous Government. The result is a shocking indictment on—
   Mr SPEAKER: Likewise, the honourable member had been fine up to that point.
We will not use points of order to introduce political debate. I have to say to the Hon
Annette King, in fairness, that if I recollect her question correctly she asked how the
Prime Minister either explained or justified saying that New Zealanders would be better
off given a list of price increases. The Prime Minister answered the question in a
relative fashion: he identified certain price increases but compared them with what had
happened previously. He therefore, I think, was arguing that relatively people are better
off. That was his answer; it is not my business to judge it. I think the member is
vulnerable to that kind of answer when she asks that kind of question.
   Hon Annette King: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You may not have noticed
that part of my question asked whether he had factored in price increases that New
Zealanders are experiencing now. That was my question, and that was the basis of my
   Mr SPEAKER: I think the way the member started her question was by saying
something about people being better off—or the Prime Minister making a comment that
people would be better off—and the Prime Minister, I think, was arguing that people are
relatively better off. It is his right to argue that in response to a question like that. The
honourable member, of course, has further supplementary questions.
   Hon Annette King: In light of that answer, what will be left of most New
Zealanders’ tax cuts when GST goes up by 20 percent on 1 October, which will further
push up the cost of rates, power, rent, food, petrol, school uniforms, building a house, a
block of cheese, and even the humble postage stamp? Has he asked New Zealanders the
question he liked to ask in 2008: “Do you feel better off?”
   Hon JOHN KEY: The answer to the question is that someone on the average wage
will be about $15 a week better off, and the average family will be about $25 a week
better off. But I can say that come 1 October 2010 New Zealanders will say: “Gosh, we
12658                           Questions for Oral Answer                      27 Jul 2010

must have a National Government, because we have had two rounds of tax cuts. We
waited 9 years and never got one under Labour.”
   Hon Annette King: Is he concerned about the continued cost his Government is
putting on to small businesses, which has led Cameron Brewer of the Newmarket
Business Association—a good old National supporter, I believe—to say: “The past 18
months have been really hard on retailers. The last thing they now want to do is increase
their prices to help out the Inland Revenue’s tax gathering.”, and “while confidence
remains flat, it paints a challenging environment for business,”?
   Hon JOHN KEY: I have not spoken to Cameron Brewer about the matter, but I can
say that this Government is delivering, on 1 October, a $4.3 billion personal tax cut,
funded in part by a $2 billion increase in GST. If that party wants to go and take $4
billion worth of tax cuts off New Zealanders, it should let us know.
   Hon Annette King: Does he agree with—
   Mr SPEAKER: We cannot hear the honourable member. I apologise for
interrupting, but I ask for a little respect, please, as we hear her supplementary question.
   Hon Annette King: Does he agree with budget advisers who are telling families to
grow their own vegetables and take in boarders in order to be able to make ends meet,
with the rising cost of food, power, petrol, phone rentals, car registration, and so on; and
what extra will families face after they have a GST increase on 1 October?
   Hon JOHN KEY: I do agree with budget advisers when they say that people should
do everything they can to make ends meet. That makes sense. I also agree with the point
that food prices fell by 2 percent, on the recent record, which is the biggest fall since
records began in 1960.
   Hon Annette King: What is his understanding of the current price of 2 litres of
standard milk, a 1 kilogram packet of Weet-Bix, and a loaf of white toast bread, and
how much cold hard cash will struggling families have to pay after these basic items are
increased in price after a rise in GST on 1 October?
   Hon JOHN KEY: My understanding is that they will be much more affordable
when the tax cuts come on 1 October.
   Dr Russel Norman: Does he agree that Cabinet’s decision not to lower the
allowable blood-alcohol content for driving for those aged 20 years and over will have
costs on New Zealanders in more accidents and lives lost; if so, will he support giving
his MPs a conscience vote on a Green amendment to his upcoming road safety
legislation to lower the allowable blood-alcohol content to 0.05 for all drivers aged 20
years and over?
   Mr SPEAKER: Although I appreciate that the member tried to align the question to
the impact on costs, I think that, in substance, the question was miles away from the
primary question. But I will hear Dr Russel Norman.
   Dr Russel Norman: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The issue is about costs on
New Zealanders, and the adverse impacts of costs on New Zealanders. If there are more
car accidents as a result of Government policy, which is the arguable point, there will be
more costs on New Zealanders.
   Hon Gerry Brownlee: Mr Speaker—
   Mr SPEAKER: Let me deal with this matter first, before I hear the honourable
Leader of the House. If we take the question very strictly, it talks about the past and
policies. It asks what effect, if any, this Government’s policies have had on New
Zealanders. There has been no change—the impact of no change in terms of blood
alcohol has certainly not impacted on New Zealanders as yet. So I think there is a range
of reasons why the question is wide of the mark. I do not want to take a question off the
member, though, and I am happy for the Greens to continue to have six questions so
that I am not being too unfair on them. If the member wishes to ask another question on
27 Jul 2010                    Questions for Oral Answer                           12659

this primary question, or on a question further down the Order Paper, I am happy to
accommodate that.
                             Economic Growth—Challenges
   3. CRAIG FOSS (National—Tukituki) to the Minister of Finance: What
challenges must New Zealand overcome to achieve balanced, sustainable economic
   Hon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance): One of our biggest challenges is that
our net external liabilities—that is, the amount of money we owe to the rest of the
world—increased by 60 percent in the 5 years ended March 2009. This was a product of
some reckless economic management, and the by-product of an economy that relied on
people spending too much and the Government spending too much. The situation is just
beginning to improve.
   Craig Foss: What role will foreign equity investment play in achieving balanced,
sustainable, sustained growth?
   Hon BILL ENGLISH: Equity investment, or the ownership of assets in New
Zealand by overseas people and of assets overseas by New Zealand people, is
surprisingly balanced. As at March 2010, New Zealanders owned about $55 billion
worth of equity investments offshore. This is lower than the $65 billion of equity that
foreigners have invested here in New Zealand. Provided that this two-way investment is
reasonably balanced and complies with investment rules both here and overseas, it can
benefit our economy and overseas economies.
   Craig Foss: What role will foreign debt investment play in achieving balanced,
sustained growth?
   Hon BILL ENGLISH: Although the position with assets is relatively balanced,
unfortunately the situation with debt is very different. New Zealand’s offshore debt is
more than three times what New Zealanders have lent abroad. In fact, the debt makes up
almost all of our net foreign liabilities of $167 billion. It costs the Government and New
Zealanders $10 billion per year just to service the $167 billion of debt we owe to the
rest of the world.
   Hon David Cunliffe: Kia ora. If the underlying imbalances in the economy are
driven by a lack of saving, growing offshore debt, and an over-reliance on foreign
capital, why did he slash KiwiSaver, defer pre-funding of New Zealand superannuation,
and begin to liberalise the Overseas Investment Office rules?
   Hon BILL ENGLISH: The Government has taken a series of decisions designed to
get on top of the reckless economic management of the last Government—
   Hon David Cunliffe: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You have previously ruled
that the Minister may refer to the actions of a previous Government if it is on point and
tangential to his main point. He has begun his response to this very specific question
about the policies of his Government by reference to the previous Government’s policy.
I contend that that is outside your previous ruling on this matter, Mr Speaker.
   Mr SPEAKER: I can understand why the member has raised a point of order. I
think we need to give the Minister a little opportunity to answer the question asked. If I
rule out any comment on the actions of a previous Government, it makes it just about
impossible. But the member will note that the Minister is not commenting on the
Opposition’s current policies; that would be where I would absolutely draw the line.
   Hon BILL ENGLISH: Those decisions were made because Government finances
were out of control when this Government came to power. They were out of control
because of the reckless management of the Labour Government, and there is no sign
that Labour has changed its attitude towards public money.
12660                          Questions for Oral Answer                      27 Jul 2010

    Craig Foss: What economic policy prescription is not consistent with achieving
balanced growth?
    Hon BILL ENGLISH: Government spending continuing to be out of control would
not help the balance of our economy, nor would any actions that encouraged another
housing boom, but, most important, New Zealanders are changing their habits. They are
spending less, they are being more careful about their debt, and they made the very
progressive move of voting the reckless Labour Government out of office.
    Hon David Cunliffe: If the imbalances in the New Zealand economy require strong
productivity growth for us to catch Australia by 2025, why did the Government cancel
the research and development tax credit, cut economic development budgets, backtrack
on mining, downgrade the cycleway, and drop the Job Summit, and why has it now
lurched to cutting working conditions through the 90-day fire-at-will bill?
    Hon BILL ENGLISH: We did drop a lot of policies that Labour had spent a large
amount of money on that simply did not work. The Government has got on with
investing in infrastructure, cutting red tape, reducing taxes, increasing taxes on
consumption and property, and making a real difference to the productivity—
    Hon David Cunliffe: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. In your previous ruling
you helpfully clarified that it would depend on whether the Minister was referring to the
policies of his Government or the previous Government, or to the Labour Party’s
current policy, as to whether his answer was in or out of order. In his opening part of his
reply he has referred to dropping a range of policies. Could we clarify, please, whether
he is referring to the policies of the Opposition or to the policies—
    Mr SPEAKER: I think we are starting to get into debating material. If the member
reflects back on his question, he will see that he asked initially about issues of
productivity—if productivity is important to the Government, why is the Government
doing this? The Minister, in answering, is elucidating a number of what I presume to be
the Government’s policies that he believes will have a positive impact on productivity.
So I think he is answering the member’s question about the significance of productivity.
    Dr Russel Norman: Does he stand by his comments that the family farm is a critical
part of New Zealand’s economic future; if so, how does he expect family farmers to
afford to buy rural land when they have to compete with overseas buyers with virtually
unlimited funds?
    Hon BILL ENGLISH: The situation for people who own family farms is no
different from what it has been for some time, with the exception that in the last 12
months there have been very few farm sales. Any people who own a farm in New
Zealand today are welcome and able to buy the next-door farm, if they can afford it and
if the bank will lend them the money. It turns out that they have not been willing to do
that. It is also the case that some foreign investors are interested in buying farmland
here, and that is always the case.
              Mining in Conservation Areas—GDP Growth Projections
   4. Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour—New Lynn) to the Minister of Finance:
Why will the cancellation of the Government’s plans to mine sensitive conservation
land have no effect on the GDP growth projections for the next 5 years?
   Hon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance): As the plans to extend mining were
not confirmed Government policy, they were not included in the Budget economic
   Hon David Cunliffe: Why, then, was mining schedule 4 conservation land part of
the Government’s economic step change agenda when he has been conspicuously
unable to give us any projections of the impact it was expected to have on GDP over the
next 5, 10, or 15 years?
27 Jul 2010                    Questions for Oral Answer                            12661

   Hon BILL ENGLISH: Mining and the use of other resources is part of the
Government’s agenda. Mining on schedule 4 land was only ever a small part of the
potential in this country, and the Government continues to encourage those who want to
turn that potential into real jobs and higher incomes for New Zealand families.
   Hon David Cunliffe: Are the Government’s proposed changes to employment law,
which will allow an employer to fire an employee without good reason, part of the step
change economic agenda; if so, will it have a measurable impact on GDP; if so, by how
   Hon BILL ENGLISH: The extension of the 90-day trial period is part of a package
of industrial measures that have pretty broad support in the community. We believe that
it will provide more opportunities for people who do not have jobs to get them and
provide more opportunities for the businesses in New Zealand that are a bit tentative
about the economic recovery to actually take someone on, thereby providing a new job
and a higher income for a New Zealand family.
   Hon David Cunliffe: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister has not
addressed the question. It was a straight question. It went to the GDP impact of the
proposed law change. There was no mention of the economic impact whatsoever.
   Mr SPEAKER: With respect, I think that the member had several pieces to the
question. To expect, in a supplementary question, the Minister to go through each of
those pieces is, I think, a bit beyond the requirements of the Standing Orders.
   Aaron Gilmore: What are the GDP projections for the next few years, and how do
they compare with the last 5 years?
   Hon BILL ENGLISH: Budget 2010 includes the forecasts for the next 4 years.
They show the economy growing at 3.1 percent per year, on average, but they also point
out the risks to that growth. The rate achieved over the past 4 years was a 0.5 percent
growth of GDP, including 3 years from 2005 when our per capita GDP growth actually
   Hon David Cunliffe: Given that the Budget’s projection was that his tax cut package
will add less than 1 percent growth to GDP over an entire 7 years, what policy or
policies does he plan that will actually close the gap with Australia?
   Hon BILL ENGLISH: We believe that the range of measures, including the tax
package, the infrastructure investment, the cutting of red tape, the raising of skills, and
the increase in innovation, will all add to growth. But the most important thing that New
Zealand has done to improve its growth prospects was to vote out the reckless Labour
                          Drink-driving—Initiatives to Address
   5. DAVID BENNETT (National—Hamilton East) to the Minister of Transport:
What is the focus of the Government’s road safety initiatives announced yesterday?
   Hon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister of Transport): Yesterday the Government
announced a package of road safety initiatives targeting drink-drivers—in particular,
repeat and young offenders. The package will include a zero drink-drive limit for
recidivist drink-drivers, a zero drink-drive limit for drivers under 20 years of age, much
tougher penalties for serious offences causing death and drink-driving causing death,
and the introduction of alcohol interlocks for repeat drink-drivers and serious first-time
offenders. These are big changes that will address two of the big issues on the road—the
high fatality rate of young drivers, and the menace of repeat drink-drivers.
   David Bennett: What decision did the Government make about the adult drink-
driving limit?
   Hon STEVEN JOYCE: The Government has noted that there is a gap in the New
Zealand statistics about the actual harm caused by adult drivers whose blood-alcohol
12662                          Questions for Oral Answer                      27 Jul 2010

level is between 0.05 and 0.08. Before making changes of this scale the public will want
to know the actual harm at that level, so the Government intends to change the
legislation in order to collect that data. People are also naturally concerned about having
a couple of drinks and suddenly being over the limit. It is important that the public
support these road safety initiatives, because road rules work only if they have a broad
level of public acceptance.
   Dr Russel Norman: I seek leave to table a document published by the Ministry of
Transport, obtained under the Official Information Act, that outlines 300 drink-driving
studies that demonstrate that driving abilities start to become impaired at 0.05, and by
0.08 a driver is significantly impaired.
   Mr SPEAKER: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection?
There is no objection.
   Document, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.
    Darien Fenton: When he told a conference in Auckland last year that it was
ridiculous that he could drink three-quarters of a bottle of wine in 90 minutes, yet still
be under the legal alcohol limit, was he aware that actually lowering the limit would be
a little too nanny State for his colleague Murray McCully?
    Hon STEVEN JOYCE: The question is strange in so many ways. Obviously in
reference to my slight frame, I am concerned at the thought of my drinking three-
quarters of a bottle of wine and then driving. That was the comment I made last year.
    David Bennett: How are the penalties for drivers who cause road fatalities
    Hon STEVEN JOYCE: The Government is strengthening the penalties for people
convicted of drink-driving or drug-driving causing death, dangerous or reckless driving
causing death, illegal street racing causing death, and failing to stop after a crash when
someone has been killed. The maximum prison term for all these dangerous offences
causing death will be doubled, to up to 10 years in prison. As the imprisonment
penalties for these offences were last reviewed in 1962, these changes are well overdue.
Tougher sanctions will bring these penalties in line with other similar serious offences
and with penalties in other jurisdictions.
    Hon Jim Anderton: How does the Minister reconcile his comments last year, that
the existing drink-driving limit was “ridiculous”, with his decision yesterday to spend 2
more years researching the “ridiculous” limit, so that we can measure just how
ridiculous the ridiculous limit is?
    Hon STEVEN JOYCE: I have to say I do struggle with criticism from that side of
the House on the drink-driving issue, or in fact on any road safety issues, because
Labour’s record on that was so abysmal in the 9 years it was in Government.
    Dr Russel Norman: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was
    Mr SPEAKER: A point of order has been called, and I am on my feet. Someone in
the back right-hand corner of the House is taking grave risks.
    Dr Russel Norman: The question asked about how to reconcile two statements. The
answer simply attacked the previous Labour Government. It had nothing to do with the
    Mr SPEAKER: Although the questioner did not make the question totally serious in
the language used, I think maybe some greater effort at the reconciliation might be
appropriate from the Minister.
    Hon STEVEN JOYCE: I noted in my answer to the previous supplementary
question that I was referring to my own ability to drink wine, rather than the wider limit
at the time. I said that it was ridiculous that I would drink that amount of wine and then
27 Jul 2010                    Questions for Oral Answer                            12663

drive. But, nevertheless, I still struggle with criticism from members on the other side of
the House, because they were so absent for 9 years on this subject.
   Hon Jim Anderton: Why does the Minister need more research to be done on this
“ridiculous” limit when 60 international reports favour reduction of the drink-driving
limit, and even his own ministry has estimated that reducing the level could save 33
lives, prevent up to 680 injuries, and save up to $238 million every year?
   Hon STEVEN JOYCE: I note that the Government has given itself 2 years to
collect that data. The previous Government took 9 years to not do anything, so if we do
make a change after 2 years, we will be 7 years ahead of the Opposition.
   Hon Jim Anderton: How can the Minister justify more research when reputable
researchers working in this area are not saying that they need more research, but urgent
   Hon STEVEN JOYCE: The member may not have been in the House at the time,
but the fact of the matter is that the previous Government signalled that it was a lack of
research that meant that it could not make a decision to lower the drink-drive limit back
in the early 2000s. The only problem is that the previous Government did not move to
collect the information. This Government will pass legislation to do exactly that.
                                  Health Services—Cuts
   6. Hon RUTH DYSON (Labour—Port Hills) to the Minister of Health: Is he
comfortable with the numerous announcements of health cuts in the last 20 months?
   Hon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health): Contrary to the member’s assertion, the
health budget in the last 20 months has in fact increased by over $1.3 billion. There
always have been, and always will be, changes to services, reflecting changing needs,
and this Government is improving front-line services despite coming out of the worst
economic recession since the 1930s.
   Hon Ruth Dyson: When he told New Zealand Doctor that cuts to community group
funding pale in significance compared with more people getting elective surgery, what
message was he sending to the 1,500 people with mental health and addiction issues
who receive support from Aspire, a Wellington-based community group that has had its
funding reduced by 10 percent this year?
   Hon TONY RYALL: I say to those people that this Government is investing an
extra $174 million in mental health over the next 4 years. Significant gains are being
made in improving mental health services for New Zealanders.
   Hon Ruth Dyson: What response has he given to the Hutt Valley judge who went
public with his concerns about an offender who has been waiting for 8 months for an
urgently needed bed in a mental health facility?
   Hon TONY RYALL: I do not have with me the details of that specific case, but I
can say that we have put another $174 million into mental health services. More people
are getting mental health services than they ever did under that failed party opposite.
   Hon Ruth Dyson: How will the Capital and Coast District Health Board be able to
better support people with mental health issues in the community or in a mental health
facility, given its confirmation in writing to me that its mental health budget in the
coming year will be almost $5 million less than in the previous year?
   Hon TONY RYALL: The Capital and Coast District Health Board’s district annual
plan has not been approved by the Government, so whatever it is telling that member is
not consistent with the facts as the Minister considers them.
   Nicky Wagner: Tēnā koe e ta Mana Whakawā. What reports has he received
recently on improving front-line services?
   Hon TONY RYALL: Besides receiving reports of considerable improvement in
mental health services around New Zealand, I can advise that there were a number of
12664                         Questions for Oral Answer                     27 Jul 2010

significant improvements over the last 20 months, such as a record rise of nearly 13,000
in the number of patients receiving elective surgery in the 2009 year, much shorter
waiting-times for cancer radiation treatment, many more 2-year-olds fully immunised,
and significant investment in the major public health programme to insulate New
Zealand homes.
   Hon Ruth Dyson: I seek leave to table a letter dated 15 July from Capital and Coast
District Health Board outlining the nearly $5 million reduction in its mental health
spend for the coming year.
   Mr SPEAKER: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection?
There is no objection.
  Document, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.
          Resource Management Act Reforms—Role in Economic Recovery
   7. CHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National—West Coast - Tasman) to the Minister for
the Environment: How are the Government’s resource management reforms assisting
the economic recovery with jobs and investments?
   Hon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for the Environment): The Resource
Management (Simplifying and Streamlining) Amendment Act 2009 is assisting by
reducing the delays for investors in getting resource consents for new developments. A
good example is the new Countdown supermarket north of Auckland, which was the
very first case under the new law of a direct referral to the Environment Court. The
application was lodged in the court in February and approved in June, a period of just 4
months. This $22 million development involves 3,500 square metres of retail space and
will employ 160 New Zealanders when it opens next year.
   Chris Auchinvole: How do the time frames for this new supermarket compare with
those of others north of Auckland previously, and what specific provisions made a
material difference to this consent being processed so quickly?
   Hon Dr NICK SMITH: I think all members of the House are aware of the Resource
Management Act circus that has occurred so often in the past with regard to such
supermarket developments. The worst case was the Wairau Park Pak ’N Save, which
took 12 years to resolve, from the application in April 1997 to final approval in
February 2009, through seven separate hearings and appeals. The key changes that have
enabled this tight process are enabling direct referral to the Environment Court so that
there is only one hearing, and specifically prohibiting objections from competitors. The
dividend of this policy and law change is this $22 million investment and 160 new jobs.
   Chris Auchinvole: Is there any evidence, given the concern from Opposition parties
that these streamlined processes would compromise the environment, that this new
development is of any lesser standard than those that have taken over a decade to get
   Hon Dr NICK SMITH: No. To the contrary, this development is widely supported
by the local community and the council. The Environment Court concluded that this
development would increase the vibrancy and vitality of the area generally, and would
have significant benefits for the surrounding area. This is a very good example of how
the Government’s policies are good for the environment, good for jobs, and good for
   Charles Chauvel: Tēnā koe, Mr Speaker. Tēnā koutou e the Whare. Is the
Government considering, for phase two of its Resource Management Act reforms,
restricting appeals to points of law only, rather than having them on the merits of the
decision or the policy, as was done in Part 3 of the legislation that abolished
Environment Canterbury?
27 Jul 2010                     Questions for Oral Answer                            12665

   Hon Dr NICK SMITH: There are 10 different work streams to phase two of our
Resource Management Act reforms. The particular work that focuses on the issue raised
by the member is that around infrastructure. This Government is determined to get
infrastructure built more quickly, as part of our growth plans for New Zealand. There
are also issues around urban design, where we do not believe that the Resource
Management Act has worked well in bringing together the good development of cities
like Auckland and of the infrastructure at the right time. We are awaiting those final
reports before we make decisions on the detail of the phase two reforms.
   Charles Chauvel: What is the likelihood of the Land and Water Forum reporting
back to the Government on 31 August, given reports that tempers are fraying between
environment groups and the dairy sector over key elements of the National Policy
Statement for Freshwater Management; and what effect will any delay have on the
introduction of any new legislation or policy?
   Hon Dr NICK SMITH: I think that everybody in this House would acknowledge
that there are real challenges around the intensification of agriculture and its impacts on
water quality. The previous Government struggled in this area. We have attempted to
bring the various parties together, with the Land and Water Forum. I remain optimistic
that that collaborative process will deliver a programme by which we can deliver on the
blue-green ideals of this Government to grow the economy and to maintain the high
standards that are so important to our country.
   Charles Chauvel: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I listened carefully to the
Minister’s answer. My question was specifically about whether there were likely to be
delays in the report that was the subject of the question, and, if there were delays,
whether that would have any effect on any reforms of law or policy. I am not sure
whether the Minister addressed that question.
   Mr SPEAKER: I will hear the Hon Dr Nick Smith on the point of order.
   Hon Dr NICK SMITH: The member, in his question, specifically referred to
tensions in the Land and Water Forum, which is due to report by the end of next month,
and I responded fairly to the point that the member had raised.
   Mr SPEAKER: I think there is merit in the Minister’s response to that point of
order. Had the member asked specifically whether the forum would report by a certain
date, then we could have pinned the Minister down. But, given the rest of the question, I
believe that it is not reasonable to ask me to pin the Minister down to any part of it.
             Employment—Workplace Access for Union Representatives
   8. Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) to the Minister of Labour:
What evidence, if any, led to her proposing to restrict the right of wage and salary
earners to meet with their union representatives at their workplace?
   Hon KATE WILKINSON (Minister of Labour): I have reports of union
representatives stopping customers from actually coming on to the workplace,
disrupting customers in the workplace, and tying up workers for hours of productive
time. That, inter alia, led us to the conclusion that it was timely to have a discussion and
clarify what is fair and reasonable to both employers and employees whilst, at the same
time, ensuring our international obligations regarding union access are not breached.
   Hon Trevor Mallard: Did she provide any additional evidence to the Prime
Minister after he gave his undertaking to the Council of Trade Unions not to proceed on
restricting union access without further consultation; if so, what was that evidence?
   Hon KATE WILKINSON: We have had several discussions regarding access;
regarding our election manifesto. Further consideration persuaded me that it is timely
now to have the discussion and clarify what is fair and reasonable to both employers
and employees.
12666                         Questions for Oral Answer                     27 Jul 2010

   Hon Trevor Mallard: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It was a very careful,
very specific question about additional evidence given to the Prime Minister after a
particular event and what it was. That answer did not address either of the legs of my
question. I can repeat the question, if you like.
   Mr SPEAKER: When the member asked his question, he referred to whether the
Minister had provided any further evidence to the Prime Minister, following the Prime
Minister making a certain statement. Now, I am not sure whether the Minister, in
answering that, would know when the Prime Minister made the statement the member
was referring to. Therefore, I think it is a bit unreasonable to expect an absolutely
precise answer. Normally the member’s questions are commendably to the point, but I
think that, given the information contained in the question, it would be hard for me to
pin the Minister down beyond that. She said she did have discussions, where
presumably she provided evidence to the Prime Minister.
   Hon Tau Henare: What reports has she seen about the approach of unions to
workplace relations?
   Hon KATE WILKINSON: I have seen a statement from the President of the
Council of Trade Unions noting: “You’ve got to remember that employers are not
people.” Well, actually they are, and the reality is our Government has approved a
package of sensible reforms to grow New Zealand’s economy and grow jobs for all
New Zealanders. Good businesses need both employees and employers to work
together, and we need laws that encourage this cooperation.
   Hon Trevor Mallard: Was she in the room with the Prime Minister when he gave
his undertaking to the Council of Trade Unions not to proceed on restricting union
access without further consultation; if so, what evidence did she provide to the Prime
Minister after that, which led to his change of mind?
   Hon KATE WILKINSON: I believe I was not in the room when discussions were
had between the Prime Minister and Helen Kelly, and I suggest that the member asks
the Prime Minister what discussions were had.
   Hon Trevor Mallard: Is she sure of her previous answer that she was not in the
room when the Prime Minister gave that undertaking?
   Hon KATE WILKINSON: I do not recall the Prime Minister giving such an
undertaking, or being in the room.
   Hon Trevor Mallard: Why did she, after her office indicated that she was free,
decide that she would not debate this issue with Helen Kelly on Q+A on Sunday?
   Hon KATE WILKINSON: Agreeing to or declining specific interview requests is
done on a case by case basis. In my view, that interview was not necessary.
                       Public Transport, Auckland—Rail System
   9. GARETH HUGHES (Green) to the Minister of Transport: Does he agree with
Auckland Mayor John Banks, in an opinion piece supporting the central business
district rail loop, that “rail is the most effective and efficient way of providing for
Auckland’s growth in travel demand”?
   Hon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister of Transport): I almost agree with his worship
the mayor. I would insert the words “one of”—that is, rail is one of the most effective
and efficient ways of providing for Auckland’s growth in travel demand. My strong
view is that the way we will solve Auckland’s transport problems as that city grows is
to have all the modes of transport—road, rail, and ferry, etc.—operating effectively and
   Gareth Hughes: When does the Minister expect the central business district rail loop
to be completed, given that rail patronage in Auckland has increased by close to 100
percent in the last 5 years and the Britomart transport centre is nearing capacity?
27 Jul 2010                     Questions for Oral Answer                             12667

    Hon STEVEN JOYCE: I am a bit old-fashioned in this regard, because I like to
know a number of things before embarking on billion-dollar projects. The first would be
a business case on the likely operation of that central business district rail link. At the
moment a business case is being prepared for all stakeholders. A study team is working
on rail-tunnel route alignment and station locations. The team is undertaking costing
work, assessing the phasing and timing of possible constructions, analysing the
traditional transport benefits and wider benefits, and analysing alternatives. Those are
all important things we do before embarking on such a project.
    Gareth Hughes: Can the Minister confirm that, according to New Zealand Transport
Agency figures, last year traffic volumes on State highways in the Auckland region,
including the harbour bridge, fell to 2004 levels, and is it not time to fast track the
central business district rail loop?
    Hon STEVEN JOYCE: I cannot confirm those numbers for the member today,
although they are at very high levels. I point out to the member that about 85 percent of
trips to and from work each day, according to the last census, are made by road, and
about 1 percent by rail. I am confident rail has grown since then, but I still think it has a
fair way to go before it will match the highway contribution.
    Gareth Hughes: Does the Minister deny that according to the Auckland Regional
Transport Authority nearly 60 percent of people currently travelling to the Auckland
central business district do so by public transport, and that that percentage is projected
to increase significantly over the next few decades?
    Hon STEVEN JOYCE: As I have said, I think all of the modes—public transport,
road, and rail—have a contribution to make, but it is important that we consider each
project carefully before we make decisions. The Government is currently investing $1.6
billion in Auckland’s commuter rail network.
    Keith Locke: Will the Minister prioritise the Auckland central business district rail
loop as least as highly as the Pūhoi to Wellsford motorway, given that it will move more
people for the same money, free up Auckland’s State highways, and dramatically
improve productivity in New Zealand’s largest city?
    Hon STEVEN JOYCE: I am not sure how the member makes those assertions if he
has no idea how much it will cost or how many people will travel on it. But, be that as it
may, I point out that the merits of bringing a three-lane highway to a screaming halt at
Pūhoi in a one-lane road, in a paddock somewhere just out of Pūhoi, is the sort of
transport policy that the previous Government came up with; not the current one.
    Hon Darren Hughes: Tēnā koe e te Rangatira. Further to Mr Locke’s question, how
many Aucklanders does he believe would use a central business district rail loop every
day, compared with the number of Aucklanders who would use his holiday highway
between Pūhoi and Wellsford?
    Hon STEVEN JOYCE: I can tell that member exactly how many people travel on
the road north of Pūhoi today. The conjecture as to who would use a central business
district rail loop is premature, because, again, the studies have not been completed. Not
only do we have to look at the projected revenues and the projected passenger numbers
but we also have to have an operating budget. All these were things that the previous
Government’s members did not trouble themselves with too much when they spent
taxpayers’ money.
    Gareth Hughes: Given that the project has been on the cards since the 1920s and
that previous studies have shown that the benefits significantly outweigh the costs,
when will the Minister commit to fast tracking the funding for the project as a project of
national significance and listen to the united voice of Auckland community leaders, who
say that it is the smartest way to deliver real transport progress in the economic engine
of the country?
12668                           Questions for Oral Answer                        27 Jul 2010

   Hon STEVEN JOYCE: My recent experience of the “united voice of community
leaders around Auckland” generally means that they expect the taxpayers to front up to
pay for something, to be fair. That seems to be the case in this instance, as well. It is
important that the central business district rail link study is completed, that all aspects of
the project are assessed, and that the costs and benefits are assessed. Frankly, we need a
proper operating budget for the rail network into the future, which the previous
Government did not bequeath to the current one. We need all of those things before we
make those decisions.
                          Crime, Organised—Police Operations
    10. SANDRA GOUDIE (National—Coromandel) to the Minister of Police: What
reports has she received on successful operations by the police against organised crime?
    Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Police): I congratulate the police on carrying
out a significant hit on organised crime over the past week or so. A year-long operation,
code-named Operation Acacia, netted large amounts of cash, methamphetamine, and
illegally acquired firearms. In addition, a multimillion-dollar alleged money-laundering
business and other assets have been restrained, with a view to confiscation. When our
Government toughened the laws relating to gangs and organised crime, this was exactly
the sort of result we were looking for. The message is clear from the police that they are
coming after illegal businesses and the profits of crime.
    Sandra Goudie: What information has she received about the amount of
methamphetamine being seized by the police and other Government agencies?
    Hon JUDITH COLLINS: I am very pleased to report that provisional data show
that methamphetamine seizures in the first 5 months of this year have already overtaken
the figure for the whole of last year. A total of 18.2 kilograms of methamphetamine,
with an estimated street value of $18 million, have been seized, compared with 17.9
kilograms for the entire 2009 year. This figure does not include the 5 kilograms seized
last week.
          Foreshore and Seabed Act Review—Prime Minister’s Statements
   11. DAVID GARRETT (ACT) to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his
statement regarding proposed changes to the Foreshore and Seabed Act that “I don’t
think people will notice a lot of change”?
   Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister): Yes.
   David Garrett: Does he think people would notice being charged for access to the
beach and the sea?
   Hon JOHN KEY: Yes, but I do not think that they will be.
   David Garrett: Will he commit to prohibiting Māori owners of sections of the
coastline from charging New Zealanders for access to the beach and the sea?
   Hon JOHN KEY: I have a couple points. One thing is that we have ensured that
access to the foreshore and seabed is absolute and is preserved for New Zealanders.
Secondly, the member seems to be asking a question in general about property rights, so
for the member’s education maybe I could quote this to him, because I find it to be quite
interesting. It comes from Richard Prebble, and it was said in this House. The former
ACT leader said: “This party is in favour of property rights, and we accept that there are
some parts of New Zealand—not many, but some—where Māori do have property
rights on the foreshore. The ACT party stands for that. We do not get upset about that,
because they have had them since 1840 and it has not caused any trouble up until now,
and we would not have panicked.” That was the principled ACT Party position.
   David Garrett: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was very simple
and carefully worded. The first few words—[Interruption]
27 Jul 2010                     Questions for Oral Answer                            12669

   Mr SPEAKER: I apologise to the honourable member. A point of order has been
called, and it will be heard in silence.
   David Garrett: The question invited a yes or no answer. I asked whether he would
commit to prohibiting, etc. I managed to scribble only the first few words of his answer,
which was that he has ensured that access is ensured, etc. That is not an answer to the
question of whether the Prime Minister will commit to prohibiting the charging of New
Zealanders for access to the beach and the sea.
   Mr SPEAKER: Members should not be interjecting when the Speaker is
considering a point of order. I cannot ask specifically for a yes or no answer from
Ministers. But I invite the Prime Minister, having heard the question repeated, to see
whether he can be just a little closer to the question. I appreciate that the Prime Minister
said access is assured, but the answer did not indicate whether it is assured at no cost.
   Hon JOHN KEY: I cannot for the life of me conceive of any reason why anyone
could be charging the average New Zealander to enjoy public access to the beach.
   Hon Jim Anderton: When the Prime Minister said: “I don’t think people will notice
a lot of change”, did he mean that nothing would really change; if so, why has he
bothered to make the change at all—or did he mean that people will not notice the
change until it is too late?
   Hon JOHN KEY: I meant that because the Government has guaranteed absolute
access to the foreshore and seabed, the average New Zealander will not notice a change.
The people who will notice a change will be Māori. They will have an opportunity to
test in the courts their customary title.
                    Income Gap, Parity with Australia—Milestones
   12. Hon DAVID PARKER (Labour) to the Minister for Economic Development:
Does he have targets or milestones to achieve income parity with Australia by 2025?
   Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Minister for Economic Development): Yes.
   Hon David Parker: What is the current average weekly gap in income between a
New Zealander and an Australian full-time worker?
   Hon GERRY BROWNLEE: It is certainly a lot less than it was when Labour was
in office. I am not familiar with exactly what the gap is.
   Hon David Parker: If the Minister does not know the exact amount, can he at least
give the House an approximation, given that National campaigned at the last election
on, and gave prominence to, its promise to close that very income gap?
   Hon GERRY BROWNLEE: I would be more than happy to answer that question if
the member would like to ask a written question, simply because it will take quite a bit
of time to work out exactly how much that gap has closed by virtue of the tax
concessions that New Zealanders will enjoy from 1 October.
   Hon Darren Hughes: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister in his reply
invited my colleague to put down a question about the issue he was asking about. The
question on notice asks about income parity with—
   Mr SPEAKER: I think had the member put down exactly that question—on the size
of the gap—I would have insisted on the Minister providing an answer. But given that
the issue was whether the Minister has any targets or milestones, I cannot actually insist
on his having at his fingertips that specific information. The public have heard the
answers, and the public can make their own judgments about them.
   Hon David Parker: Does the Minister stand by his answer to my first supplementary
question that the gap between the income of New Zealand workers and that of
Australian workers has decreased since his Government took office?
   Hon GERRY BROWNLEE: I believe that that is the case. I also say that the
Government has a number of economic objectives that we want to achieve. The first
12670                           Questions for Oral Answer                      27 Jul 2010

point I would make is that we are gradually removing the millstones that the Labour
Government put round the economy of this country. Ultimately, that will mean that this
country can afford the sorts of wages that New Zealanders want. I might also say that
under this Government the economy is moving forward, not back as it was when we
took office.
   Hon David Parker: Supplementary question, Mr Speaker.
   Mr SPEAKER: I believe that the Labour Party has utilised its full allocation of
supplementary questions. I apologise to the member.
                                 ESTIMATES DEBATE
                                       In Committee
   The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker): The Standing Orders provide for 8
hours of debate on the estimates. Each member may have no more than two speeches of
5 minutes on each vote. The estimates debate should be relevant to the Government’s
current spending plans, as contained in the Estimates of Appropriations. As each vote is
reached, the question will be put that the vote stand part. Should it be the wish of the
Committee, a question may be proposed on two or more related votes with the purpose
of debating them together.
   At the conclusion of 8 hours of debate, any remaining votes and remaining
provisions of the bill will be put as one question. The Government indicates which votes
are available for debate; I understand that all votes are available. Votes will be called in
order of seniority of Ministers, commencing with the Speaker’s votes. A compendium
of the reports of the select committees on the votes is available on the Table.
Vote Office of the Clerk agreed to.
Vote Parliamentary Service agreed to.
Vote Audit agreed to.
Vote Ombudsmen agreed to.
Vote Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment agreed to.
Vote Communications Security and Intelligence agreed to.
Vote Ministerial Services agreed to.
Vote Prime Minister and Cabinet
   Hon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader—Labour): We have one opportunity a
year to question the Prime Minister in the estimates debate. Today we will not have that
opportunity to question the Prime Minister because, as the Committee will notice, he is
not in the chair. All votes may be available to debate, as the Government has claimed,
but there is not the ability to question the Minister who is in control of this particular
vote, and I think that is wrong. Why would the Prime Minister not wish to sit in the
chair and hear what this Committee has to say on his estimates? What has he got to
hide? Why is he not in the chair today to debate his estimates? That is what this
Committee wants to know.
   Hon John Carter: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. The member, I know, is
being very clever in not referring to the absence of a member in the Chamber. But it is a
well-known rule that if the Minister in charge of the issue being debated is in the
Chamber, he or she has to sit in the chair that is currently occupied by the Deputy Prime
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                                 12671

Minister. Therefore, the fact that a member is absent from the Chamber is being referred
to, and that is against the Standing Orders.
    The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker): I make this observation: the member
has referred to a very little-known fact, and he has now made it public and in fact people
can draw the conclusion. But, on the interpretation, the member on her feet has not
referred to the absence of another. The member has made the point that someone is not
in a particular position in the Chamber, but that does not necessarily mean she has made
it clear that that person is absent. People would have to be pretty knowledgable about
the Standing Orders to be able to make that deduction, and I have to say that even some
members are not knowledgable enough about the Standing Orders to be able to make
the deduction for themselves. Probably about 60 people know what the true answer is,
and Mr Carter would be one of them. I invite the member to continue.
    Hon ANNETTE KING: If the Prime Minister were sitting in the seat he should
occupy today in this estimates debate, I would be asking him a question. I would have
liked to ask him whether the only advice he receives from his department when he has
to consider a very hard policy issue is to just “kick the tyres”. Is that the only policy
advice the Prime Minister has received from his department? It is the answer he gives to
almost every difficult issue he has faced as a Prime Minister. He says: “We’ll just give
the tyres a kick on that issue.”
    I have to say to the Prime Minister that it is time to stop kicking the tyres. How about
putting a bit of petrol in the engine and turning on the motor? What New Zealand wants
from that Government and from the leader of that party is a plan for New Zealand. You
see, as far as I know, Kiwis kick the tyres only when there is nothing else to do, or when
they are standing around having a beer at a barbeque, or when they are looking to buy a
new car. But our Prime Minister thinks the answer to every problem is to give the tyres
a good old kick. I ask the Prime Minister why he does not get on his feet and answer the
fact that there is no plan for this country from the leader of the National Government.
    I have never seen a Government so lacking in vision and so lacking in a plan. There
is no plan from that Government. All it has, as far as I can see, is a series of slogans.
“We are going to catch up with Australia”—that was going to be the big plan, but it has
turned out to be a big slogan. When we listen to Gerry Brownlee, the person who is
supposed to be implementing the plan, we find that he does not even know what the
wage gap is between Australia and New Zealand. How can we catch up with wages
when the person driving economic development does not know what they are? What
does he tell the Prime Minister when they have their meetings?
    Members opposite said the Government was going to have an unrelenting focus—an
unrelenting focus—in its quest to lift economic growth rates and raise wages. But, of
course, its unrelenting focus has been all over the place, because those members have no
plan. I ask the Prime Minister how we will catch up with Australia in wages, in
employment, in training, and in skills. How will we catch up with Australia in
investment, in research, and in development when there is no plan? There ought to be a
plan for this country.
    National went to the country telling New Zealanders not to worry because it could
fix everything, but there has been no plan. Then National had a whole series of things
that would give us a step change. Do members remember that? We were going to have a
step change. Well, the first thing out of the block was the Job Summit. It was going to
give a step change for New Zealand. But I am afraid to tell the Prime Minister that his
Job Summit did not give us a step change; it gave us a step back. There are more people
unemployed today than there were when Labour left Government.
    I say to the Prime Minister that when we look at the estimates we find that the
Government is planning to have higher unemployment in 5 years’ time than it had when
12672                               Estimates Debate                           27 Jul 2010

it became the Government. So the step change in terms of catching up with Australia
and the Job Summit has been a real failure indeed. The Government saved about 670
jobs with its 9-day fortnight. At a time when thousands of New Zealanders are
unemployed, the big idea, the step change, the big plan has saved about 670 jobs.
    Then, of course, there was going to be mining. “Mining here, mining there, mining
everywhere.”, said Gerry Brownlee to his Prime Minister. He said: “Don’t worry, Prime
Minister, I’ve got a plan for a step change. Get out the shovels, get out the
wheelbarrows, get out the diggers, we’ll just dig up our wealth and we’ll be on our way,
catching up with Australia.” What happened to that plan? What happened to the big step
change from mining? It fell flat on its face because the Government had not done its
homework. Government members did not know what they were talking about. They did
not have a plan at all—it was a light bulb that went off in Gerry Brownlee’s head. The
Prime Minister, who is wont to agree to everything the last person said to him, said:
“That’s a great idea. That’s our step change for New Zealand.”
    Then we had another great idea for a step change, and that was to have New Zealand
as the Asia-Pacific hub for financial services. Well, they are laughing themselves silly
in Australia. The Australians said: “Look, we looked at that. We couldn’t make it work.
How does New Zealand, with just over 4 million people, at the bottom of the world,
think that it can run a financial hub for the Asia-Pacific when countries like Singapore
can do it standing on their heads?”. What happened to that idea? I think it has also been
    Then there was the great New Zealand cycleway. We all think that a cycleway is a
great idea—no doubt about it—but what was the big step change for New Zealanders?
The Prime Minister said that 4,000 jobs would be created. I know that the Minister of
Finance fell about laughing when the Prime Minister said that. He said: “Prime
Minister, you’re dreaming, and I’m not going to give you the money.” When it came to
the crunch, he got the money and the Minister of Finance was proved right—there are
not 4,000 jobs to be had in building cycleways.
    What about the Prime Minister’s tourism portfolio? We now know that we have
moteliers in New Zealand with occupancy levels of around 15 percent. The occupancy
levels have dropped so low that we have tourist operators worried about whether they
will have a business next week. Now we have the Government’s next big step change,
which is to reduce the wages of New Zealanders. That is how the Government is going
to make this country hum; it will reduce the wages of all working New Zealanders with
its latest crazy ideas.
    This country is in desperate need of an economic plan that New Zealanders can see
will take them forward. New Zealanders know that Australia is motoring ahead. But
what do we have in New Zealand? We have a “gonna” Government. It is always
“gonna” do something. It is “gonna” do something on Monday, it is “gonna” do
something on Wednesday, it is “gonna” do something on Friday, but it has not actually
turned the motor on yet or put any petrol in the engine. We say: “Get a move on and
give New Zealand a plan.” I have to tell New Zealanders that this party has a plan for
economic development and recovery in this country and they will hear about it over the
next few days. Labour had a plan when it was in Government and we will have one
when we return to Government in 2011.
    This Government is so scared of being called PC that it will not tackle the hard
issues. Government members are very brave at bashing beneficiaries, but when it comes
to the real, hard issues they are too scared of being labelled PC. I say that it is not a PC
Government, it is more like a gutless Government—a Government that does not have
the internal fortitude to tackle the hard issues. That could not have been made clearer
than when the Prime Minister vetoed any changes to blood-alcohol levels for driving.
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                                 12673

That was an area where the Government could have shown some leadership, but it did
not have the internal fortitude to do it.
    This Government is two-faced. Its members will grin and wave at everybody they
talk to, led by the Prime Minister, but they will not make the hard decisions. I ask the
National-led Government to give us a plan. It must be agony for its coalition partners to
watch it wallow.
    Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour—New Lynn): It has been an interesting time in
New Zealand politics. We are 18 months through this Government’s term in office, and
New Zealanders are entitled to know what it is about. As Labour MPs have been going
out around the community lately, knocking on doors and visiting businesses, the
message they have been getting from one end of the country to the other has been
exactly the same: National has no plan for this economy. National has no plan to protect
Kiwi jobs, no plan to lift incomes, and no plan to make New Zealand a fairer or better
place. It is 18 months into its term and it has no plan, and that was after 9 long years in
Opposition, waiting for its chance.
    Do members know what Mr Key said in a 2008 speech? He promised there would be
a fresh start for New Zealanders. He was going to be unrelenting in his quest to lift our
economic growth rate and wages—how wonderful! New Zealanders, to be fair, thought
they would give him a chance. Labour had had three terms, so they thought they would
give the friendly Mr Key a chance to prove what he was made of, and they gave him a
chance. They gave this Government a chance, and from one end of New Zealand to the
other they are asking the same question. They are asking why they gave National a
chance, because they have nothing to show for it. New Zealand communities are
suffering. They suffered through the recession, they are yet to feel a recovery, and they
are asking what this Government’s idea is for lifting wages and protecting jobs.
    Here is the pattern: National kicks the tyres on a daft idea that suits its mates but is
not good for ordinary New Zealanders, and when Kiwis wake up to that, it back-pedals.
It is not just the cycleway that the Government back-pedalled on; it back-pedalled on
mining national parks. Now it is attacking workers’ rights, and if we wait a bit longer, it
will back-pedal on that, because working New Zealanders will rise up and say no, they
are not having that. The rolling maul of daft ideas has gone from bad to worse.
Government members have rolled over themselves. Here is the list, starting with the Job
    The Council of Trade Unions was more than fair to the Government. The Council of
Trade Unions went along in good faith to the Job Summit. The union movement fronted
up and said this Government had come in and said it wanted to help with jobs, so it took
the Government at its word. Not only was it the case that all that the Council of Trade
Unions got was a cycleway to nowhere—which the Minister of Finance had said he
would not fund this year, the next year, or the year after, but was forced to—which has
created only 70 jobs in the year since it received funding, but also this week the head of
the Council of Trade Unions wrote to the Prime Minister and said any dialogue was off,
because the Prime Minister had broken his word to protect jobs. The Council of Trade
Unions said the Prime Minister was attacking jobs, wage rates, and working conditions,
and his plan to fire at will for 90 days and to force low-income workers to sell off their
holidays is a giant step change backwards. The Council of Trade Unions, which has
been more than fair to this Government, said it has had enough.
    If we are to be fair to this Government, then it is fair to take the Minister of Finance
and the Prime Minister at their word. The Government says the New Zealand economy
needs to be rebalanced, it says there has been no growth in the tradables sector for a few
years, and it says we are too much in debt to foreign interests. OK, let us take it at its
word and ask the fair question that New Zealanders are asking: well, what would a real
12674                                Estimates Debate                           27 Jul 2010

plan to address those problems look like? We can ask what a coherent plan to address
those problems would look like. Well, if we are not exporting enough, we need to
export more. What do exporters say their problems are? Their No. 1 problem is the
exchange rate. How do we solve that? We solve it through monetary policy reform.
Who has had the real ideas? It is Labour. Where is the Government? It has its head in
the sand, pretending that it has “the best monetary policy in the whole world”. But the
rest of the world has moved away from the archaic framework that that Government still
defends. National members are the last of the new right—the last conservatives who are
still standing. The rest of the world learnt from the global financial crisis, but Bill
English did not.
    The second thing to ask, if we believe that our tradables sector is suffering and we
need to lift exports, is what we should do. Presumably, we should open the markets—
that is bipartisan—and then we should help New Zealand businesses to get into them.
The last thing we should do is to cut Vote Economic Development, and we will get on
to that matter in this debate. We should work in partnership with New Zealand business,
boosting our Kiwi expat programme, boosting our gateway programme, partnering with
Kiwi exporters, providing export credit finance, and getting into foreign markets. But
this Government is doing less and less of that, as the ideology of the new right for
shrinking the size of the Government prevails. Government members are turning less
and less into inventors, more and more away from ideas, and more and more towards a
failed ideology, which is all that they have to fall back on.
    We can take the Government’s second analysis of the problem, which is that we do
not have enough capital. It is right on that; we do not have enough capital. The effects
of that are apparent everywhere. In the weekend papers, Rod Oram was absolutely spot
on. The failure of nerve means that we cannot export. The New Zealand Herald had the
headline, “The deal drought”. Why is it that Kiwi companies cannot succeed? It is
because they cannot get capital. Banks are not lending to farmers. When Federated
Farmers beat a path to Labour’s door, we know that we have a problem. Federated
Farmers have come to us to complain about the Government, for goodness’ sake! They
complained that farmers cannot get capital from the banking system, because these guys
in the Government are so ideological that their only answer to the need to raise capital is
to sell off the remaining assets that we have.
    This Government thinks we should sell off our remaining assets. It does not matter
whether those assets are the Crafar farms, Synlait—a promising dairy company that is
now 51 percent owned by China—or NZ Farming Systems Uruguay. I wonder whether
any Ministers in this Government have just bought shares in that company that they
might not have disclosed. I wonder whether any Ministers have capitalised on the
difficulties that face NZ Farming Systems Uruguay and have just geared up their own
pocketbooks at the expense of an emerging New Zealand exporter, because I hear that
they have. Why are we are selling NZ Farming Systems Uruguay to a foreign
multinational? It is because we cannot fund it for ourselves.
    I ask how we will provide Kiwi jobs and a First World income when there is no plan
to provide the capital, the skills, and the technology that New Zealand businesses need
in order to thrive. It is not very complicated. It is not very complicated to get a real plan
for jobs that systematically attacks the constraints in our economy. Capital, skills, and
technology mean jobs, growth, and exports, and that is what this Government is not
providing leadership on. What do we have? We have a cycleway to nowhere, mining on
conservation land, and an attack on the rights of workers. That is no substitute for a real
plan for jobs and growth.
    Hon DAVID PARKER (Labour): The Prime Minister was elected following a
campaign where he promised that New Zealand would catch up with the fortunes of
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                                12675

Australia and that he would close the wage gap. So, at this time, it is appropriate to
consider what success, or otherwise, there has been on the part of the Prime Minister
through the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet and through the other
departments that that department oversees, in terms of that ambition.
    The Government promised us a step change in the New Zealand economy. That was
the other mantra the Government used. It was going to have a step change in the New
Zealand economy, and that would cause New Zealand to catch up with Australia. The
Government promised at the start that this would be achieved by 2025, but then, of
course, since promising that date the Government has refused to say what an
intermediate step towards that goal is. The year 2025 is 15 years away. By then, very
few of the people who are sitting in this Parliament will still be here. The National Party
will be long out of Government. Even in National’s wildest dreams it does not
realistically expect to be in office for five terms in a row. It has never happened
previously in New Zealand’s history, and, given the Government’s lamentable
performance on economic matters, it certainly will not last for five terms.
    How do we judge the Government as to its performance between now and then? It is
very difficult for the public to judge, because the Government will not set out an
intermediate goal. What has the Government done? What have its step changes been?
Bill English is the Minister in the chair, and he is the man who described John Key,
when he was talking at a National Party conference, as “hopping from cloud to cloud”.
He was right in that statement, because we can see what has happened since then. There
has been the cycleway, which was going to be part of the cure. We have had a 9-day
working fortnight, which was going to be important, but it came to nothing of
significance. We had the most recent plan of Chinese investment in broadband, but that
has not come to fruition and it does not look like it will. We have had the assertion that
New Zealand will somehow become a financial services hub in the world. That is a
good ambition, but that is not going to come pass. The Minister for Economic
Development has not even taken a paper to Cabinet in respect of that ambition. We
know that Australia, which has far deeper capital markets, has a far greater chance of
being a financial services hub than New Zealand. Of course Australia is competing for
that same space. So that plan is not going to come off, either.
    Then, of course, the Minister for Economic Development planned to give a shot in
the arm to the mining industry by mining our national parks. No one denies that there is
a role for mining in New Zealand; no one denies that. There is a role, outside of national
parks, and it is an important role. Indeed, the previous Government was doing a lot to
stimulate interest in the petroleum industry.
    Hon Darren Hughes: We dug a lot of holes.
    Hon DAVID PARKER: We did. That Government funded $20 million of data
acquisition because we needed gas and oil. If we are going to be using oil for the next
few decades we should be using our own, rather than importing it from Saudi Arabia.
That is not a step change, I say to Mr English, who is in the chair, because that was
happening already. What did we have next? The Government says that New Zealand
will be catching up with Australia, so we have been trying to ask the Government what
its intermediate targets are. What does it tell us? The Government does not have any.
The Government will not give us one target by which it can be held accountable.
    I thought I would go back to a more general level today, and ask the Minister for
Economic Development at question time what the income gap difference is. Given that
National campaigned on this very issue, I thought he might take a stab at it. He did not
know. It surprises me that we can have a Government elected on the mantra that it will
close the income gap with Australia, and its Minister for Economic Development is not
able to tell the House what the income gap currently is. I thought that, OK, he might not
12676                               Estimates Debate                          27 Jul 2010

know the specific figure. How about a rough idea? Can we have a rough idea of the
difference? What was the answer? No, we could not even have that, because the
Minister for Economic Development did not know. I forgive him for not knowing the
exact figure. I find it surprising that he did not know the estimated amount.
[Interruption] John Key is responsible for this. Then the Minister said that the gap is
getting smaller. Mr Brownlee can expect some questions on that issue tomorrow.
   Hon Darren Hughes: Heads up.
   Hon DAVID PARKER: Heads up! I encourage the Minister to do a bit of swotting,
because I am not sure he is right. How can that be so? In fact, I am sure the Minister is
wrong. Australia’s growth rate has been higher since this Government came into office.
The per capita GDP gap, which is one measure of income, has increased under the
National Government. The wage and salary gap has become bigger, because we know
that wages and salaries have been going up at a higher rate in Australia than in New
Zealand. In terms of salary and wages, the gap has got bigger, not smaller. If we take it
per available member of the labour force, it is even worse, because not only has
Australia had wage growth but it has had employment growth, while New Zealand has
had unemployment growth. Whichever way we cut it, I say to Mr English, who is in the
chair, or to Mr Brownlee, who, I see, is in the House, the wage gap between New
Zealand and Australia has not been going down, contrary to Mr Brownlee’s belief at
question time today. It is going in the opposite direction. I have to say that I am
surprised that Mr Brownlee did not know that. [Interruption] The Prime Minister will
know that, or should know that.
   Hon Annette King: I think he should.
   Hon DAVID PARKER: If the Prime Minister has not been advised of that, I would
say that we should not be voting the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet any
money, because the reality is that this was one of the Government’s promises. It was
going to close the gap, and it is going in the wrong direction.
   I turn to another area where policy is confused. The Prime Minister said yesterday at
the post-Cabinet press conference that the Government is going to slow down on its
review of overseas ownership rules. Just months ago Bill English said we needed to
make it easier for foreigners to buy assets in New Zealand, and indeed John Key said
proudly that he had already done a deal with the Australians to make it easier for them
to invest in assets. Now the Government is slowing down. That seems to me a little
inconsistent with what the Government was doing earlier.
   The Government does not know where to go on this issue. The Government knows,
from Federated Farmers’ criticisms, from the wider public opinion, and from things that
the Labour Party and the Greens have been saying, that increased rates of foreign
ownership in either infrastructure assets or land are problematic and should not be
agreed. Rather than making it easier to sell those assets overseas, the Minister should be
properly exercising his discretion and not allowing the wholesale sale of our farms to
overseas interests. The world has changed in the last couple of years. Credit is not easily
available. We ought not to be pricing those assets in a way that it is in an international
market, rather than in a local market. Amy Adams asked earlier why we are going to
stop those people selling those assets overseas, as if that was inherent in their property
right. It never has been, I say to the member. The New Zealand property right in rural
land has always been subject to restrictions in the national interest as to whether they
should be sold overseas.
   Amy Adams: He was talking about Synlait; he was talking about shares in Synlait,
which is not land.
   Hon DAVID PARKER: He was not. He was also talking about farmland.
   Amy Adams: If you’re going to criticise me, get it right.
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                                12677

   Hon DAVID PARKER: I ask Amy Adams whether you are now on record as
saying that you oppose the sale of farmland, of Crafar farms, to China. Unless you are,
that is hollow talk. The reality is that the world has changed.
   Hon Bill English: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. The Opposition speakers
are continually referring to “you”, which is not only rude but outside the Standing
   The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker): The Minister is right. Members should
not draw the Chair into the debate.
   Hon DAVID PARKER: That is the only contribution we have heard from the
Minister in the chair, and again it was about process. There is no substance at all from
this Government, because it does not have a plan.
   Do members know what the big gap is between New Zealand and Australia? It is
savings. What has the Government done? It has eroded the incentives for savings in
New Zealand. New Zealand is going in the wrong direction on savings incentives, at the
very time when Australia is improving its rate of savings. This Government is without a
coherent plan. Labour voted for some of the reforms to the Resource Management Act.
We thought they were quite sensible. But that will not cause an economic step change in
New Zealand. There was always exaggeration as to the part that the Resource
Management Act played in New Zealand’s economic growth, and that is evidenced by
the fact that we do not have some great surging growth or step change as a consequence
of the changes to the Resource Management Act.
   We have no plan from the Government. It is setting up a Productivity Commission.
Our concern is that the commission will be narrowly focused on deregulation, rather
than on wider issues. I am sure that the Productivity Commission in Australia, which
the Government says our Productivity Commission is modelled on, would have opposed
the abolition of the research and development tax credits and would have opposed the
cuts to KiwiSaver at the time when capital markets have been grown by increased
savings in Australia. I have not heard the Productivity Commission in Australia come
out and say that they should be flogging off their assets, like their rural land, to people
   The step change in the economy that the Government has promised has not come to
pass. The lack of a plan from the Minister for Economic Development, given the failure
of his plan to mine national parks, has shown up for people the absence of a coherent
plan to grow New Zealand incomes and to grow jobs. Instead, the Government is
resorting to making it easier for people overseas to buy our assets, rather than curing our
savings problem.
   Dr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader—Green): I also wish to address the approach
of the Prime Minister and the Government to overseas investment. One of the major
concerns around overseas investment, particularly in respect of land, is on the impact on
land prices, both rural land prices and urban land prices. Multiple factors have driven up
urban and rural land prices over the last decade; there is no question about that. But one
of those factors is overseas investment, and that factor is likely to increase in time, not
decrease in time.
   Urban and rural land prices really matter. In particular, rural land prices matter if we
care about the family farm. I endorse the statements that have been made, particularly
by the Minister of Finance, about the fact that the family farm is important. I totally
agree with the Hon Bill English about that. The question is how family farms can
continue to exist if we cannot afford to buy into them. If the next generation of family
farmers simply cannot afford the land because the price of the land has been driven up
by overseas investors with very deep pockets, I ask how the farmer’s daughter or son
can afford to become the next generation of family farmer. In fact, one of the great
12678                                Estimates Debate                           27 Jul 2010

dreams in New Zealand, particularly in the dairy sector, has been to go from being a
sharemilker to a dairy farmer. That has become very, very difficult when the price of
land is driven up by overseas investment. So one of the questions for the Department of
the Prime Minister and Cabinet is to ask what the Prime Minister will do and what the
Government’s policy will be towards protecting rural and urban land from being driven
up to being so expensive that family farmers cannot afford it.
    The other part in relation to family farms is that when the price of land is so high that
an enormous mortgage has to be taken out, whether the farmer is a corporate farmer or a
family farmer, then, in order to service the giant mortgage, the land and the soils need to
be driven incredibly hard. The bigger the mortgage that needs to be taken, the harder the
land needs to be driven. So one of the issues is that if we do not regulate to protect rural
land from overseas investors, we force up the price of rural land, which means that
family farmers cannot continue in New Zealand, because they cannot afford the land.
This means that those who farm the land are forced to thrash it and destroy the
environment because they are under such enormous financial pressures to meet their
mortgage payments. This is a major concern for New Zealand.
    One further impact, of course, is the inflationary pressure. We know that one of the
key drivers of inflation has been inflation coming through the value of land, and that the
Reserve Bank tries to deal with the inflationary pressures coming out of the housing
market, which is linked very closely to the price of land, by jacking up interest rates. So
any measure we can use to keep down the value of land and stop it escalating so quickly
is of tremendous value and importance to the New Zealand economy, to family farmers,
and to people trying to buy their first home in New Zealand.
    One of the tools that we have is to restrict the access of foreigners to buy up land in
New Zealand. We have heard quite a lot, and quite reasonably so, about the issue
around the level of savings in New Zealand. I totally agree that there is a real concern
about the level of savings in New Zealand, and we need to improve the level of savings
and have policy instruments to do that. But I say two things: in the first instance, we
cannot solve that problem immediately, but we face a real issue about foreign ownership
and foreign buying-up of land right now. We have the regulations and we can impose
them to prevent foreign ownership of land right now. I also say that even if we increase
the level of savings quite significantly, we will still have very large sovereign funds that
have identified that they want to buy up New Zealand land. We have seen it from South
Korea and the Chinese Communist Party Government, which both have a strategy of
buying up agricultural land, and they have been extremely explicit about it.
    The other issue in terms of foreign ownership of land is around undermining
Fonterra. If vertically integrated companies take dairy produce out of New Zealand and
sell it straight into China, that undermines Fonterra on price, and it means that the
profits travel overseas. It also threatens Brand New Zealand. Bright Dairy, which is the
company trying to buy Synlait, was caught up in the melamine disaster, and that
undermines Brand New Zealand. If a single packet of New Zealand - branded milk ends
up in China contaminated with melamine, then it will undermine Brand New Zealand.
For those reasons and many more, we need a policy to restrict foreign ownership of land
in New Zealand.
    Hon MARYAN STREET (Labour): The Prime Minister presides over a Cabinet
that thought it could dig up just shy of half a million hectares of conservation estate and
provide New Zealand with an economic step change. At least two Ministers, Kate
Wilkinson and Gerry Brownlee, thought that it would be feasible to put up a proposition
to Cabinet asking that 460,000-odd hectares of conservation estate be dug up to provide
New Zealand with an economic step change. So what happened? Well, the people got in
the way.
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                               12679

   Hon Gerry Brownlee: Stop being reckless with the truth.
   Hon MARYAN STREET: The people got in the way, I say to Mr Brownlee, and
they protested. There were 40,000 people in Queen St and 2,000 people in Nelson,
which is a big march for a little place like Nelson.
   What have we seen? We have seen a humiliating back-down on the Government’s
prize strategy for the economic plan. What has this back-down left in its place? It has
exposed a vacuum where an economic plan ought to be. There is no economic plan; this
king hit was going to improve the wealth and prosperity of this country.
   But, still, the Government keeps saying that it will continue prospecting. The
Minister for the Environment, the Hon Nick Smith, for goodness’ sake, said that the
Government will continue prospecting on Dun Mountain, just behind Nelson. But Dun
Mountain was one of those areas that were going to be part of the national cycleway—
part of the national cycleway. So I want to know whether the Prime Minister talks to the
Minister of Tourism. It should not be hard; they are the same person. That should not be
difficult. I ask whether anybody in one department talks to anybody in another
department. I ask whether the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet talks to the
Ministry of Tourism. Perhaps it takes its lead from the Prime Minister, because he does
not even consult himself between portfolios.
   Where is the plan? If we are going to continue prospecting in Dun Mountain, where
there is also a plan for a cycleway—which I welcome in the Nelson area—which will
win: mining or tourism? Which will prevail: mining or tourism? What is the plan? Is it
mining or tourism? Who knows? The Prime Minister clearly does not, nor does the
Minister of Tourism.
   In fact, I suggest that the Prime Minister cannot run even his own office properly. On
30 June in this House, Mr Key said that he had received a phone call the previous night
from Bill and Mary Smith of Auckland, who thanked him for their $40-something tax
cut. I wanted some evidence of that, so I presented the Prime Minister with some
written questions, asking when that happened, whether the call was logged, whether he
took the call himself or it was referred to him, because when he sat down after Phil Goff
had asked him a question about the veracity of that answer, I heard Mr Key say to Gerry
Brownlee: “I just made it up.” “I just made it up.”—that is like the economic plan; he
just made it up.
   The first answers he gave me on the written questions were that he could not answer
yet, but that he would answer soon. The second lot of answers that I got when he finally
could answer were that—I will paraphrase for the House—he picked up a staffer’s
phone that was ringing sometime after 5 p.m., but the call was not logged. The Prime
Minister was stumbling around a darkened office because everybody went home at 5
o’clock, so he picked up the staffer’s phone call. A response on a Tui billboard comes to
mind. But even if the answer is true—I cannot disprove it so I will give the Prime
Minister the benefit of the doubt and take him at his word—it means that the man
cannot run even his own office or get somebody capable to run his own office. So I ask
why anybody in this country should believe that he can run the country and can present
a coherent plan to the people to get us into an improved economic position.
   METIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader—Green): I too want to address Vote Prime
Minister and Cabinet, given that last week the Prime Minister and Cabinet made a
decision not to mine schedule 4 land. When we look at some of the other votes we will
be debating today, we see the vote on the management of the Crown mineral estate. I
must say it is a great relief that the Crown mineral estate will now not include the areas
that are protected from mining under schedule 4 of the Crown Minerals Act. Although it
is certainly true that we have many battles ahead to protect our conservation estate for
conservation purposes as opposed to exploitation and degradation by the decisions of
12680                               Estimates Debate                          27 Jul 2010

the Prime Minister and Cabinet, we must make the time to celebrate this victory for
common sense.
   We are a very small country and we are fully dependent on our environment for our
economic needs. The green movement, alongside hapū, is right at the forefront of
protecting the intrinsic value of our land and, therefore, our long-term economic
welfare. Just last week the voice of common sense won over short-term political
expediency. It was the only real choice, because when we love something the only
rational response is to stand up and protect it. The victory that is the schedule 4 mining
campaign has shown how the Green approach works, how Greens make change happen,
and how Greens will set the agenda.
   Last month I told our annual conference that together we would make the John Key
Government back down on its mining madness, and we have been very proud to lead
that campaign. Last August we challenged the claim that the plans to mine were just a
stocktake. In October we revealed that the stocktake included Mount Aspiring National
Park, among other national parks. In December we dismantled John Key’s and
Cabinet’s fallacious economic argument. The minuscule mining royalties are not worth
more than the damage to our economy and our environment. By February of this year
we had forced the Government to change its agenda and scale back on its mining
   The pressure from the public continued to mount. Tens of thousands of New
Zealanders marched through the streets of Auckland to tell John Key and his
Government that they said no. Thousands of New Zealanders made submissions to the
Government on its proposal to mine schedule 4 land, and nearly 50,000 New Zealanders
signed the Green Party petition against mining our most treasured places. I thank all
those people who signed, talked, and got out on the streets. I thank them for their
incredible work.
   We must also recognise and thank the iwi and hapū who have fought to protect our
whenua and our whānau in the 170 years since te Tiriti was signed. Too often the
struggles of mana whenua to protect their whenua go unnoticed. It is the marae and the
hapū who belong to the land and have been kaitiaki since mai rā anō who continue to
stand firm to protect these areas from degradation and the decisions of Governments.
The struggle for hapū is not over, of course, with plans from John Key’s Government
for deep-sea oil drilling under way and with further mining threats in Northland, the
West Coast, and Southland. But we are successful as a community because we stand
alongside each other and respect each other, and we work together to protect our land
and waters.
   I acknowledge and thank the environmental movement in Aotearoa. The “Too
precious to mine” coalition of groups have been leaders too on this campaign against
the Prime Minister and his Cabinet’s decisions. These groups, such as the Coromandel
Watchdog, the Environment and Conservation Organisations of New Zealand, the
Federated Mountain Clubs of New Zealand, the Royal Forest and Bird Protection
Society, Greenpeace, the Save Happy Valley Coalition, and the World Wild Fund for
Nature New Zealand are at the front line of New Zealand’s environmental safeguards.
   Without the commitment from the volunteers, their supporters, and the staff of these
environmental non-governmental organisations, New Zealand would not have the
protected areas and rich biodiversity that it has. The Coromandel Watchdog and other
environmental groups in the 1990s fought for 15 years before the schedule 4 protections
were put in place in 1997. It was Jeanette Fitzsimons who ensured then that the law
required public consultation before any land was removed from schedule 4. Jeanette
Fitzsimons helped to give ordinary Kiwis a voice so they could look after their land. Kia
27 Jul 2010                          Estimates Debate                                 12681

    Hon DARREN HUGHES (Labour): If this Government were a television show, it
would be entitled It’s All About Me, John Key. That is why the Labour Opposition is
making a big effort today to focus on Vote Prime Minister and Cabinet, because the
whole thing is about John Key. The whole point of the Department of the Prime
Minister and Cabinet is meant to be to put together the policies and the plans a
Government is meant to have to give effect to its manifesto, its Speech from the Throne
and the Prime Minister’s statement. It is all about John Key, and this Prime Minister is
failing to develop a plan for New Zealand that lasts the test of time—and that could be
just 12 months—and is failing in his ability to drive through real change for New
Zealand in order to give people the brighter future they were promised at the last
election. Hundreds of thousands of people voted for National, more than those who
voted for it in 2002 when it was led by the hapless Minister of Finance. Hundreds of
thousands of people shifted from 2002 to 2008 to support National because they
believed in the brighter future that was promised to them by John Key. It has turned out
that after one episode of The Late Show with David Letterman, all we are getting is one
tyre kicked after another. The tyres have been kicked to death. They are flat; they are
down to the rims on the road, and the only place National wants to go is to Tony’s Tyre
Service to try to get the Government back on track, but it cannot happen.
    I heard the Prime Minister on the radio this morning. He was asked about one of the
few genuine reforms the Government has driven through. I refer to Auckland
governance, where National took the royal commission set up by Labour and managed
to bring a reform through. Though controversial, at least it is one thing the Government
has done. John Key, the Prime Minister of New Zealand, who is serviced by the
Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, was asked about how powerful the
Mayor of Auckland would be. He was asked whether the Mayor of Auckland would be
the second-most powerful person in New Zealand. Our Prime Minister, who is serviced
by policy advice from the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet, said: “They might
be; but, on the other hand, they might not be.” This constituted the top-level leadership
from the Prime Minister in respect of the Mayor of Auckland.
    Moana Mackey: Decisive.
    Hon DARREN HUGHES: It was decisiveness writ large from a man who said he
would deliver a brighter future and who said he would turbocharge the New Zealand
economy. We were going to have a step change, and we are now finding out, 2 years
into this Government, that all of those slogans are just that—they are just words. There
is no plan to give effect to any of the words that the National Party spent 9 years in
Opposition carefully road-testing or getting Crosby/Textor to check out. Every single
word was focus-grouped. National checked to make sure it tested well with the market,
and it gets 10 out of 10 for the marketing and the research it did in order to give effect to
the policies it campaigned on. The problem is that National now has ministerial
warrants. National now has departments that it is being serviced by to try to turn those
slogans and that rhetoric into policies that will change New Zealand not just for a week
or a month but for a year and a decade. That is the failure for the Department of the
Prime Minister and Cabinet with its vote, in that this Prime Minister is not capable of
sticking to a plan. Whenever the pressure comes on, the Government always buckles
and it cannot keep going.
    Steven Joyce, who runs large swathes of the Government, is the man for whom the
Road Code has been designed, with the contents page having, on page 1, “U-turn”. The
most important piece of road safety that Steven Joyce knows is the same as his political
safety—the U-turn. That is the key thing he knows, which is on page 1 of the Road
Code. The slogans are getting harder and harder to turn into policy, and that is where
the Deputy Prime Minister actually has a point. We always wonder why he is quite as
12682                               Estimates Debate                           27 Jul 2010

angry as he is, but it must be so frustrating to have predicted things years before they
have happened and to be rubbished at the time, only to sit back and watch everything he
has said come true. I empathise with the Deputy Prime Minister because he rubbished
the cycleway, and he had Gerry Brownlee’s number years before anyone else worked
out that Gerry was a good fella but he was not so good on policy. Mr English had John
Key worked out with his case of bouncing from cloud to cloud. Mr English tried to tell
them all this, but no one would listen. Now he has to sit there and try to suppress the
laughter and the giggles, as Labour finally points out what all these things are about.
    Hon Bill English: I wish I was that smart.
    Hon DARREN HUGHES: Deep down, he knows he is that smart. There is no such
thing as self-doubt when it comes to Bill English. Mind you, in that respect he will
never be lonely in the National Party caucus, where there has never been a great
connection between talent, ability, and personal ambition.
    One of the aspects of the brighter future we were going to see from National was
where it was going to close the gap with Australia. So the Department of the Prime
Minister and Cabinet should be going through all the different organs of State to work
out how this gap with Australia can be closed. As was shown today by the Minister for
Economic Development, that was only ever a slogan. The National Government has no
idea what it wants to do to try to reduce the gap with Australia, and when Mr Parker
asked the Minister for Economic Development a simple question today about income
parity the Minister said he was blind-sided by the question. Let me read to the
Committee the question: “Hon David Parker to the Minister for Economic
Development: Does he have targets or milestones to achieve income parity with
Australia by 2025?”. That could not have been a clearer question for which we wanted
to know the answer from the Government; we wanted to know what it was doing to
achieve parity with Australia.
    The Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet is meant to be driving all the
policies across the votes to make sure that this can happen. But Mr Brownlee was
surprised that the issue was about wages and surprised that it was about income parity.
What on earth he was doing preparing for question time today, Lord only knows! I am
not sure what special is on at Copperfields; all I am saying is that I would have thought
that if I had that question arrive on a green sheet of paper in my bill box this morning, I
would think: “Gee, I’d better look up what people earn in Australia as against New
Zealand.” That shows me that the Government is not coordinated; there is no plan with
regard to how the Prime Minister leads his Government to make sure that parity with
Australia can happen.
    Gerry Brownlee did not know what the wage difference was. John Key did not know,
at question time, how much a 2-litre container of milk was. The deputy leader of the
Labour Party, Annette King, asked him about the price of milk and of Weet-Bix, and he
had no idea how much the price of bread was. They are out of touch, because they have
no plan other than how they got elected in 2008.
    I close by saying that National has previously had plans before that it has worked to,
and in preparing for today’s speech, I remembered that back in the Bolger National
Government it was ambitious for New Zealand. It did have a plan for New Zealand, and
it did believe in a brighter future for New Zealand. It used to call it a plan for a “decent
society”. That kind of went by the by. That was before Mr Henare joined them! I found,
from the Parliamentary Library, a document called Path to 2010: Securing a future for
New Zealanders to share. In that document the National Government in 1993 had a plan
for the country, and it was going to achieve 5 percent annual growth for the New
Zealand economy under that plan. It talked about preparing for an ageing population by
trying to help ensure that people could have savings. Well, of course, we know that this
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                                12683

Government has no plan for the savings of workers, because it cut the KiwiSaver
scheme. Superannuation savings for workers is one of the key advantages that
Australians have over New Zealanders, yet the Key Government cut it out. I know that
Lianne Dalziel will have something to say about that.
   This document, Path to 2010, talked about agriculture and the importance of making
sure that that industry remained critical to New Zealand through “better research and
development”. Well, of course, the previous Labour Government took up the challenge
to boost research and development for New Zealand’s critical primary industries, and
the Bill English - John Key Government came in and wiped that, despite the fact that in
Path to 2010—the last time National had a plan, 17 long, long years ago—that was all
going to be taken care of.
   The last aspect it covered was the “heavy indebtedness of New Zealand” at the time
that the plan was written. The Labour Government, led by Helen Clark and Michael
Cullen, paid down the debt of this country, when people like Gerry Brownlee, Bill
English, and John Key were saying not to worry about things like that but to give out
tax cuts. Can this country imagine how indebted we would be today if Labour had not
reduced debt before we went into the recession where we had to borrow money to keep
the country going? The position of the economy that this National Government
inherited was far and away better than what the previous National Government gave to
the country in 1999 when it left office.
   National used to have a plan; it used to believe in doing things for the country; it
used to have the courage of its convictions and the fortitude to follow through with
policies even though they were unpopular. What we are seeing from this Government
now is back-down after back-down when things get tough. It turns out that the slogans
have got nothing behind them. They are slogans, they are clichés, they are rhetoric;
there is nothing to them. When it comes to the really tough decisions, National does not
have the bottle to follow it through. There is a U-turn on mining, there is a U-turn on the
importance of the cycleway, there is a U-turn on doubling trade with China, there is a
U-turn on becoming an international financial hub for the world, and there is a U-turn
even on a simple matter like road safety where National could build bipartisan or even
multipartisan support across the House to move on issues like road safety or blood-
alcohol limits. National did not even have the intestinal fortitude to get on and do that.
What is the point of being the Government if one cannot lead? What is the point of
being the Government if one cannot campaign on manifesto policies and turn them into
proper plans when one becomes the Government? It’s All About Me, John Key. That is
why we are opposing Vote Prime Minister and Cabinet. That guy has no plan for New
Zealand that he can make happen.
   Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour—Christchurch East): I went collecting for
Women’s Refuge on Friday, and when I came out to my car I discovered that there was
a little plastic bag, with a message tucked inside it, under my windscreen wiper. I
thought that I would bring that message to Parliament. Actually, when I saw it there I
thought it was probably something awful about me, because I do have rather a large
picture of myself on my car. But anyway, I found that it had this message: “Tell the
powers that be”—and this is why it is appropriate to read it out in relation to Vote Prime
Minister and Cabinet—“that John Key’s glued on mask is merely a drastic attempt at
covering his feeling of INSECURITY when he loses the next election. I will have so
many fond memories of him, but won’t remember where I put them.”. It was signed
“GD”. I thank “GD”. He is a very good constituent, and I have done what he asked me
do to. He actually attached the message to a cartoon, which states: “What’s the good of
having something to look forward to, if I can’t remember what it was?”.
12684                               Estimates Debate                           27 Jul 2010

    I think the point that my constituent was trying to make there is exactly the point that
we are making in this debate. I want to know why the Government is no longer
ambitious for New Zealand. I thought we were promised a brighter future. I thought the
Prime Minister said he would be unrelenting in his quest to lift our economic growth
rate and to raise wage rates, so that we could catch up with Australia. Does anyone else
remember that? My constituent obviously cannot remember that, because he has
nothing to look forward to as far as this Government is concerned. That is because the
Government has spearheaded a move in the opposite direction to the one that it spelt out
in its election campaign. I wonder whether that was because Mr Key was overseas
working in the financial institutions that brought us the global financial crisis when the
wage gap was actually created by a former National Government. There was no wage
gap when National took office in 1990. It was created during the 1990s, and John Key
did not know that because he was not living in New Zealand at the time. National
managed to produce a huge wage gap, growing year after year, through its policies, and
it is doing that all over again. We have heard the Hon Darren Hughes spell out all of the
different things that the Government is failing to do. That failure means that we are not
able to address that gap at all.
    I will comment briefly on a couple of the matters regarding the workplace, and those
are the issues of union access to worksites and letting employers sack workers without
good cause and without a reason within the first 3 months on the job. I ask the Prime
Minister how that works for a young person. I wonder whether the Prime Minister is
aware that there are already probationary provisions in the Employment Relations Act
that enable employers to set expectations, to monitor performance, and to provide
feedback. Those provisions enable employers to terminate employment for cause, if an
individual is not up to scratch. What does sacking someone without telling the person
why he or she is being sacked do for the worker, in terms of his or her capacity to enter
the workforce and be a contributor to New Zealand’s economic future, and in terms of
the person’s own social and economic well-being?
    I recall a case that was brought to Labour’s attention when the Employment
Contracts Act went through the House. A young worker, in his first job, unfortunately at
the end of the first week became involved in some drinking, and he was smoking at the
workplace, as well. At the end of the shift, when the shop was closed and he had spilt
some ash on the carpet, the employer sacked him on the spot for the damage that he had
done to the shop. This young man carried on drinking. He actually bought a bottle of
spirits, went down to the river, and killed himself. I know that that is an extreme
example, but his mother brought it to our attention because she was very concerned that
vulnerable individuals were being left without proper support when they could be
terminated from their employment, and that it ended up with them having to cope with
    I think it is really important that young people know what is expected of them. How
on earth do we grow good workers in this country if we do not teach them how to do
well in the workforce? I think it is a disgraceful misrepresentation to the public to
pretend that the change is about a trial period, given that we already have those in the
law. It is an excuse to sack workers with no excuse, and that simply is inexcusable.
    I also ask the Prime Minister to tell us what evidence there was that unions were
abusing their right of entry. Not one example was given in the Chamber today.
    I seek leave to table the statement that I found on my windscreen.
    The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy): Leave is sought for that purpose. Is anyone
opposed to that course of action? It appears not. Leave is granted.
   Document, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                                12685

   Vote agreed to.
Vote Security Intelligence agreed to.
Vote Tourism
    KELVIN DAVIS (Labour): We have heard all the slogans about the rolling maul of
initiatives and the brighter future for New Zealand. We have heard how this
Government is ambitious for New Zealand and we have heard about the step change.
We have heard all the slogans, but we have not seen a plan to improve New Zealand.
The only thing we have heard in terms of tourism is about “kicking the tyres”. That is
what the Prime Minister says, but in terms of tourism, when we kick the tyres on a
cycleway, somebody is bound to fall off their bike.
    I tell members what is happening now in tourism: the numbers of domestic tourists—
New Zealanders who can afford to go off to have a holiday somewhere around New
Zealand—are falling. Domestic tourism has fallen by 10 percent in terms of guest nights
over the most recent time. In the North Island guest nights have fallen by 4 percent and
in the South Island they have fallen by 9 percent. People cannot not afford these days,
under this Government, to just go off to have a holiday, get a bit of rest, and get away.
That is because nothing this Government has done is putting more money in people’s
pockets. People cannot afford to go off on holiday, and that is before the 2.4 percent
increase in GST and before the emissions trading scheme bumps up the cost of petrol.
Even now, before all those things have really kicked in, people cannot afford to go on
holiday. For people in the domestic tourism market, it means that moteliers are
    Dr Rajen Prasad: No plan.
    KELVIN DAVIS: Because of the lack of plan from this Government, people in the
tourism industry such as moteliers do not have the numbers of people staying in their
motels to enable them to make a living. There is anecdotal evidence that in Hawke’s
Bay alone guest nights are down to 10 to 15 percent of capacity.
    The Government’s lack of a plan for New Zealand is having a detrimental effect on
the Prime Minister’s ministry—that is, the Ministry of Tourism. The big step change
has been to consume the Ministry of Tourism into the Ministry of Economic
Development. We now have a Minister who does not have a ministry because the whole
Ministry of Tourism is being consumed. It is being taken up by the Ministry of
Economic Development. I ask the Prime Minister where the unique issues of the
tourism sector will be heard, who will listen to them, and how they will be addressed if
the Ministry of Tourism is swallowed up and consumed by the Ministry of Economic
Development. It is a backwards step, not a step change, for the tourism industry in New
Zealand. We all know that tourism is right up there as one of New Zealand’s biggest
economic earners. It is our second-largest export earner. Quite frankly, the people in the
domestic tourism scene are struggling just to make ends meet.
    The other step change from the Prime Minister and this Government was mining. If
there is one thing that will really damage the New Zealand tourism sector, it is to start
mining the most pristine areas of our country. Why the Prime Minister, as the Minister
of Tourism, thought that mining and digging up underneath Mount Aspiring National
Park, Great Barrier Island, or the Coromandel would ever be an idea that would fly, I do
not know. The tourism sector itself has told the Prime Minister that it is not a good idea.
It is not “100% Pure New Zealand”; it is 100 percent stupid. Mining New Zealand and
our national parks was never ever going to fly. It harms our international reputation.
People will not leave their homes in England and Europe to come over here, creating a
huge carbon footprint through their travel, to a country that does not live up to its
12686                               Estimates Debate                          27 Jul 2010

“100% Pure New Zealand” image and reputation. We have reports from people who ask
why they would travel all the way to New Zealand when they could just go to Norway
to see lakes, rivers, and fiords.
    AMY ADAMS (National—Selwyn): I am very happy to take a call in respect of
Vote Tourism, as I come from the beautiful electorate of Selwyn where tourism is a
substantial part of the economy. Everyone in this Chamber could and should properly
recognise that the work this Government is doing with its economic growth agenda to
lift the wealth and prosperity of all New Zealanders is fundamental to the success of this
    Anybody who looks at the issue objectively knows that this Government has been
one of the most active, productive, and effective Governments this country has seen.
Thank heavens we have John Key and a National-led Government, because this
Government is leading economic growth in tourism, farming, and exporting—which are
the sectors that will see New Zealand come out of the global recession—and addressing
the horrific economic mismanagement of the previous Labour Government over the last
9 years.
    The tourism initiatives I see happening every day in Selwyn will lead to growth.
Treasury is predicting 170,000 new jobs for the economy as a result of this
Government’s economic management. National was elected to deliver greater prosperity
to New Zealand, and that is what we are delivering. Do members know what appals me?
What appals me is that the Labour Party is so financially incompetent that it cannot see
the effect of what we are doing. It cannot see the difference that the policies of this
Government is making to jobs and growth in this country. Labour has had its head in the
sand for so long that the only way it knows to create wealth is to spend taxpayers’
money—borrow and spend. This Government, on the contrary, understands that real
growth comes from the productive sector, and that is why—
    The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy): I am sorry to interrupt the member. I say to Dr
Prasad that interjections should be rare and reasonable.
    AMY ADAMS: That is why this Government is putting in place a number of
initiatives. That is why we are putting an extra $30 million into the tourism sector, for
example. That is why we have streamlined and simplified the Resource Management
Act—so that new tourism initiatives can get under way.
    We heard today in question time the Hon Dr Nick Smith talk about the fact that those
changes to the Resource Management Act have changed a consenting process that was
taking upwards of 6 years so that it now takes 4 months. So when some of the tourism
ventures in Selwyn want to build new infrastructure, new growth—and there are some
fantastic plans for the ski fields in my electorate—they know that the Resource
Management Act will not now be the absolute, concrete shoe that it was under the
previous Government. We will not see good growth initiatives and good tourism
initiatives strangled by the red tape and inefficiencies of the previous Labour
    This Government will ensure that sectors like tourism, agriculture, and exporting,
which were in recession for 5 years under the previous Labour Government—for 5
years while the world was in boom times—will now grow. They will grow, they will
prosper, and they will create real sustainable jobs for New Zealanders. There will be an
increase in average household incomes of more than $7,000 a year thanks to the policies
of this Government. For Labour members to now cry crocodile tears when over 9 years
they did nothing except borrow and spend other people’s money—[Interruption]
    The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy): Dr Prasad, if you are going to be disruptive, be
disruptive from your own seat. Please go to your own seat. [Interruption] Please go to
your own seat.
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                                12687

   AMY ADAMS: The economic policies of this Government are substantial and
effective, and they are making a difference for real New Zealanders. One of the best
pieces of news that this Government delivered in recent times was when the Minister of
Finance announced that for the first time we have seen growth in the productive sector
outstripping growth in the non-productive sector. That is a major milestone. It is exactly
the sort of economic growth, economic step change, that we are delivering.
   Labour members are so blind that they cannot see that—they cannot see it. For them
to now cry crocodile tears is pretty appalling. They managed the economy into the
ground during the best period of economic activity the world has seen, and the
productive sector continued to fail.
   CRAIG FOSS (National—Tukituki): I will speak on Vote Tourism. I congratulate
the Minister of Tourism on his vision, aspiration, plan, and action—not words; action.
He has put in place an economic base on which New Zealand can rebuild its tourism,
after 9 years of shambolic, misguided, tragic, disgraceful, and, quite frankly, defeatist
administration by the previous Government of not only the tourism sector but the entire
economy. The tourism sector rests upon a robust economy, which needs to have good
infrastructure, an educated workforce, and a business sector that wants to invest in the
future and is also ambitious. Yes, this Government is bullish and aspirational for New
Zealand, not like the defeatist rhetoric that we hear constantly from the other side of the
   I am saddened, particularly in this debate, to essentially hear confirmation that
Labour wants to rip up the cycleways once they are built. I am disgusted—and people in
Hawke’s Bay will be very disappointed—with the confirmation from earlier speakers,
in relation to one of the key announcements from our Minister of Tourism earlier last
year, that once the cycleways are put in place, Labour wants to dig them up. If I am
wrong about that, I look forward to other members standing up to say that Labour backs
the cycleways.
   Other members have talked about how to attract tourists to New Zealand. One of the
things that we need is to have a competitive exchange rate. Well, what happened to our
exchange rate in the previous 9 years or so? It got to nearly 80c against the United
States dollar under the previous regime. Interest rates reached double figures under the
previous regime. Those who worked and those businesses that wanted to invest in
themselves, in New Zealand, and in tourism had to fight the highest interest rates in the
OECD because of the spend-up—the unfocused spending, the unaccountable spending,
and the non-transparent spending and outcomes—of the previous regime. Not only did
it push up interest rates with its unfocused spending—I acknowledge the member—
which underpinned the high exchange rate and the inflation rate, as previous members
have said, but we have been in recession since about 2004 in the tradables sector, of
which Vote Tourism is a large part. We had an Export Year. Apparently, that was to
have fixed everything; it did not.
   Success in the tourism sector and the effectiveness of Vote Tourism will depend
on—and tourists to New Zealand can come and witness—what is probably the biggest
transformation in our taxation system in 25 years. They will witness that here. To make
their tourism experience much better, they will witness the provision of better, faster,
smarter public services and the use of public funds. I go back to the corporations and
companies that are investing in the tourism sector, whose tax rate will go down to 28c in
the dollar next April. They will also have a workforce that is starting to become better
educated, because of national standards. The focus of this Government is on front-line
services, on deliverables and outcomes, not on the endless plans and talk that we hear
from members on the other side of the Chamber. Actions speak much louder than
12688                               Estimates Debate                           27 Jul 2010

    Tourists will enjoy motorways and airports that have been improved with the boost
in infrastructure spending.
    Carmel Sepuloni: You haven’t done anything.
    CRAIG FOSS: The member wants infrastructure to be built over a couple of days.
Well, in fact, that takes years. Interestingly, for example, tourists can now shop at
another supermarket that took 4 months to get on to the board, because of the Resource
Management Act changes that this Government made, as opposed to one that took 12
long years to build under the previous Government, with its shambolic administration of
the Resource Management Act. Tourists will come here, and of course I am sure that
they will come to the Hawke’s Bay wine country. It is actually relatively cheap to do so.
I hope that tourists, when they come back again and again, will see a better economic
environment in New Zealand, and will see that we have moved up from No. 22 in the
OECD rankings, which we tragically slid so fast and so far down to under the previous
administration. One thing that tourists will also see is our more efficient public services.
In fact, about $2 billion of savings have been made in the Budget, to have a better
realisation of the investment of taxpayers in “New Zealand Inc.”, and particularly in the
tourism sector.
    Members on the other side of the Chamber have taken the mickey—shall we say—
out of our aspirations for a growth in trade with China, where we aim to cater for an
increase to $20 billion by 2020. I ask what is wrong with that. Why are the Opposition
members being so defeatist? We are an exporting nation; we need to export our way out
of the current situation.
   Vote agreed to.
Vote Finance
   Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour—New Lynn): So far in this debate, the
Committee has considered the impact of government by focus group. New Zealanders
are sick of that. New Zealanders are sick of a situation where real lives are at risk and
real families are under stress because this Government does not have a plan. This
Government advances ideas—it calls it “kicking the tyres”. That means the Government
puts a potentially unpopular decision out in public, and when the polling tells it that a
significant number of New Zealanders understand what is going on and do not like it, it
backtracks. In the short term that may be to tactical advantage because the Government
may be able to save itself a few votes. But if it keeps doing that time after time, we will
get what we have got, and that is a country with no sense of direction, a business sector
with confidence at some of the lowest levels on record, and consumer spending that is
subdued because New Zealanders have their wallets closed because they are afraid of
the future.
   The Minister of Finance talks about rebalancing, and he is partly right. In our earlier
debate, we noted the fact that the part of his analysis about the slow growth of the
tradables sector and the scarcity of capital facing New Zealand’s firms is on the money.
But that is where it stops, because there is no strategy to deal with the very problems the
Government has identified. If we are capital-scarce, we should obtain capital. If we do
not save enough, we should encourage savings. We should not cut KiwiSaver. We
should not forget to put money into the New Zealand Superannuation Fund. We should
not close the Government’s mind to the possibility that new, additional, different things
might have a substantial impact on savings—for example, beefing up Kiwibank rather
than forcing it to go overseas to borrow yet more international debt so that Kiwis can
recycle it into real estate.
   This Government pledged to correct the imbalances of the economy, but it only
tiptoed around building depreciation with the property sector, and even then it got it
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                                 12689

wrong, putting it on commercial property as well as residential property. A significant
tax advantage to real estate remains, and there is a huge avoidance problem. The
Finance and Expenditure Committee, in its report to this Committee, has pointed out
that some $2.5 billion is being avoided or evaded by means of loss attributing qualifying
companies and the misuse of portfolio investment entities. But the Government did not
have the bottle to follow its own rhetoric and address that problem at source.
   The Labour Party has been able to recite example after example—whether we call it
kicking the tyres, a rolling maul, or just a bloody shambles—of things that are no
alternative for a strategy. We have had the cycleway, the Job Summit, the mining step
change, and the attack on workers’ rights with the 90-day fire-at-will bill—all things
that are no alternative and no excuse for a strategy.
   I turn now to the contrast with Australia. The Government said that it wanted to
catch up with Australia. It appointed none less than former National leader and former
Governor of the Reserve Bank, Don Brash, to attempt to draw together the best threads
of National Party thinking. It was so good that Prime Minister John Key announced it
dead on arrival, before it was even published. He said it was too extreme. Government
by focus group got in the way of the underlying agenda, just in case Kiwis worked out
what they meant and decided they did not like it. It was the same thing Ruth Richardson
meant. It was the same thing Jenny Shipley meant. In fact, it was the same thing that
Margaret Thatcher meant, and the same thing Ronald Reagan meant: deregulate and
hope; take it off the back of working people, make the rich richer and the poor poorer,
and hope it all trickles down.
   But it is not all their fault. Actually, the left of politics, broadly speaking, needs to
stand up and be counted for some old principles of our own—like the fact that equality
is a good thing, and like the fact that equality of opportunity for every New Zealand
child matters. I was in my electorate of New Lynn on Friday, and I went to the local
high school in Kelston. I am ashamed to say that there are children going to school
without shoes and without breakfast, and some who live in caravans.
   How do members like this for the Government’s economic strategy? One family that
I was told about was a family of six children, mum, and dad. Dad was supporting that
family, living in a State house, with a reasonable labouring job, but his entire company
folded in the recession, and he is out of work. The family could not afford a State house,
even with Labour’s income-capped rents. So they had to move in with his brother, and
now there are eight children and four adults living in one three-bedroom home in
   Just down the road we are trying to help another family, who live in a caravan, and
another family of four children who live in a garage. I am ashamed that this is the
country we call home. If that is trickle-down economics, I say that it has not trickled
down to Kelston. It has not trickled down to my constituents.
   Let us contrast that with Australia. Australia is the country we were supposed to
catch up to, but there is no plan to do that. The Australian Government invested robustly
through the recession. It created jobs. Under Labour, we used to have lower
unemployment than Australia, but now it is higher. Gerry Brownlee thinks that New
Zealand incomes are rising faster than Australia’s, I say to Mr English. I am sure that
Mr English, at least, knows better. It will be interesting tomorrow when he is asked to
quantify that in the House in question time, because the truth will out. New Zealand
workers have gone backwards—backwards—because New Zealand’s Government has
no plan. The Australian Labor Government does. It may not be perfect, but it knew how
to grow an economy through recession, and not stand on the sidelines, fiddle and hope,
give up on New Zealanders’ future, and boil aspiration down to individual self-interest,
12690                               Estimates Debate                           27 Jul 2010

where the rich and the powerful climb on the backs of the poor, the homeless, and the
needy just like they have always done.
    Hon Steve Chadwick: It’s not funny.
    Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE: No, it is not funny, I say to Mr David Carter, who owns a
dozen companies and squillions of acres of farmland. If Mr Carter lived in Kelston and
his children had no shoes, he would not be laughing. If his colleague, who has just
bought a swag of New Zealand farming systems, was in the Chamber right now, I
would be asking him what is so funny about profiteering off a New Zealand company
that has been sold for scrap because the Government’s economic strategy has failed.
    The Government’s economic strategy is in tatters, and its public relations are in
tatters. All it is doing is governing by focus groups, and New Zealanders want better.
They want vision, they want values, they want coherent, good law, and they want
evidence-based policy. They want policy that will work and will raise living standards,
and they want more equality—they want more equality. It is very interesting, I say to
Mr Carter, that I had a farmer in my office who said: “You know, we like National, but
the Minister of Agriculture is a waste of space. We can’t wait for the reshuffle that gets
Carter out of that job.” I said: “His brother is pretty smart, so I do not know what
happened to the DNA. But I know what you mean.” So I say to the Minister of
Agriculture that I would not laugh if I were him, because it will not be long before
Federated Farmers have their way with him, and then the smile will be out of the other
side of his face.
    I turn back to the people of Kelston, who are struggling in this so-called recovery. It
has not hit them. It has not hit the high street businesses whose windows are boarded up
and whose shops are vacant, the taxi drivers who cannot get fares, or the workers who
have lost their overtime. We have not caught up with Australia. This issue is not just
about the lack of a plan; it is about real-life pain. It is about the real-life hardship of
children going to school hungry, children with no shoes and no books, and people
having to wait for medical care. It will get worse and worse, because it is not OK to
create a society of haves and have-nots. It is not the Kiwi way. Kiwis are decent people.
All right, they do not like to be told what to do, but they think everybody deserves a fair
go and equality of opportunity. A plan for jobs and a plan for growth is what they
expect of this Government. They are asking why they elected it, and how long it will be
before they can get a coherent alternative.
    Hon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance): There is no doubt that if Labour
wants vision, values, and evidence-based policy, it has found its man. There is no doubt
about that. I can just hear that speech about equality rolling off Mr Cunliffe’s lips at the
next Labour Party meetings up and down the country, where three Labour members get
in a phone box, and there is not quite enough room for the spokesman on finance.
    Hon David Carter: There won’t be enough for his head.
    Hon BILL ENGLISH: There will not be. I ask the member, if he really felt as
concerned as that about the families that he met in Kelston, why he did not fix it when
he was in the Government. After 9 years of growth, huge increases in the housing
budget, and endless rhetoric about caring about everybody, the end result of almost a
decade of Labour in power is that he has finally found the homeless families in his
electorate. After 9 years in power he has finally found those homeless families. The
member will be pleased to know that as part of these estimates the Government will do
something about those families. It has been told by the Housing New Zealand
Corporation that 30 percent of its stock is in the wrong place, is the wrong size, or is in
too poor a condition to put those families in. That is what is left after 9 years of vision,
values, and evidence-based policy. That is the result after 9 years.
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                                 12691

    There are a lot of stages an Opposition has to go through, but I will tell the
Committee that the one that is still well ahead of Labour—Labour has not got there
yet—is the stage when Labour accepts that the voters were right and that it was wrong.
When the Opposition members have been addressing these estimates, we have heard all
about the policies that were perfect, and that still would be. No doubt the Prime
Minister, who was perfect, and who still would be if she had been in this chair during
the estimates—
    Hon Gerry Brownlee: They want her back.
    Hon BILL ENGLISH: Of course they do. But they do not need her back, because
she is busy texting from New York to tell—
    Hon David Carter: No, they’ve got Mr Cunliffe instead.
    Hon BILL ENGLISH: Yes, that is right; they have found their man today. But those
members have to admit that the voters were right and they were wrong, and we do not
hear that. Today they have had an opportunity. There has been a lot of discussion about
the direction for New Zealand, but Labour members still cannot admit that they were
wrong and the voters were right. The voters were right to change the Government,
simply because they wanted a Government that understood where the economy was
going and what would actually lift incomes for New Zealanders.
    As has been discussed in a number of debates in this Chamber, the Government,
through the appropriations and these estimates, is addressing some pretty fundamental
difficulties that were left behind by the previous Government. Probably the one that I
find that New Zealanders most readily understand is that the enthusiasm for spending
vastly outran our interest in earning, so the non-tradables sector grew by 10 percentage
points of GDP from 2004, and the tradables sector actually shrank by 15 percent. If we
look back over decades, we can see that it has never been so far out of balance. We have
never become so blind to the need to earn a living from the world so that we can pay for
the children who do not have shoes or who are living in a garage.
    As they are finding out in other countries where debt has got out of control, and
where people have lost their interest in living within their means, the results will be
pretty harsh. If we were in the UK or the US, we would be seeing the complete
shutdown of public services and a major reform of welfare, all of which can be pretty
difficult for the most vulnerable. In fact, the lesson of what is happening in those
countries is that it is when times get tough and are badly managed that we get the
biggest impact on inequality and the worst impact on those at the bottom of the heap.
People on reasonable incomes can ride out a recession; people who lose their jobs find it
pretty difficult. So the Government’s plan to turn round this economy has now been
running for a couple of years, and what has been satisfying about it, I have to say, is that
the plan that was signed up to in 2008 by the Government has been able to be continued
for so long and so successfully.
    Dr KENNEDY GRAHAM (Green): I listened with interest to the Minister just
then, expounding—certainly at the end, at least—his Government’s policies pertaining
to the Appropriation (2010/11 Estimates) Bill. It strikes me that the single emphasis that
has come through in that bill, both in the presentation of the Budget and in the debate
ever since, has been simply on economic growth. That is not just one of a raft of
policies that the Government is promoting; it constitutes the central plank of this
Government’s raison d’être. Economic growth is the lodestar that this Government
pursues; it is the criterion by which this Government is prepared—in fact claims to
wish—to be judged by.
    It began, as the Minister more or less said, right from the very beginning with the
Speech from the Throne. If we go back to 9 December 2008, the Speech from the
Throne said that “The driving goal of the new Government will be to grow the New
12692                               Estimates Debate                          27 Jul 2010

Zealand economy in order to deliver greater prosperity, security and opportunities to all
New Zealanders. It will be going for growth because it believes in the power of
economic growth to deliver higher incomes, better living conditions and, ultimately, a
stronger society for New Zealanders.” The Minister reiterated that quite explicitly just
    Similarly, in presenting the Budget itself back in May, the Minister said that the
Government’s emphasis is now shifting towards getting the economy growing again,
and ensuring that this growth is higher and “more sustainable.” Members should note
the words “more sustainable”, which in a sense reflects the sheer inability of the
Government to understand the true meaning of sustainability. There is a sustainable
economy or there is an unsustainable economy; there is not a more or less sustainable
economy. So the growth is higher and more sustainable than New Zealand has seen in
recent years. “Growth matters”, because it creates jobs, increases incomes, and
improves the living standards of New Zealand families.
    To round it off, only last week the Minister for Economic Development, wearing his
energy hat, stated in the very beginning of the foreword to the Energy Strategy: “The
overarching goal of the Government is to grow the New Zealand economy to deliver
greater prosperity, security and opportunities for all New Zealanders. … The
Government’s goal is for the energy sector to maximise its contribution to economic
    This excessive focus on economic growth is, I seriously suggest, contestable. With a
global population that has shot up in half a century from 2 billion to 6.8 billion, and is
rising to 9.2 billion, and with the consumption per capita of people on the planet rising,
global economic growth on this planet by humanity has become in itself unsustainable,
not less sustainable.
    Hon Gerry Brownlee: Rubbish, utter rubbish.
    Dr KENNEDY GRAHAM: I assure the Minister that if he bothers to read the
literature pertaining to economic footprint, he will see—and I will help him out there—
that the figures are 1.8 hectares per person for the bio-productive capacity of land, and
2.1 hectares at the moment for an ecological footprint, which is an overshoot of 35
    Hon Gerry Brownlee: Left-wing garbage.
    Hon Gerry Brownlee: Left-wing rubbish.
    Dr KENNEDY GRAHAM: Left-wing rubbish?
    Hon Gerry Brownlee: That’s right.
    Dr KENNEDY GRAHAM: Yes—thank you for that stunningly insightful comment
on the global challenge we face. The fact is that the global economy is overheating at
the moment. Global economic growth has become uneconomic, and what has to be done
is to distinguish between the global north, which is overdeveloped, and the global south,
which is undeveloped but still has a right to develop in terms of material economic
growth. In the global north we are obliged now to maintain our prosperity without
material growth, while in the south, countries like Fiji, Vanuatu, Papua New Guinea,
and Indonesia are free to grow. The key concept linking that is sustainable development,
which has been on the international agenda since 1992. Thank you.
    Hon Sir ROGER DOUGLAS (ACT): To some extent the Opposition has put me
off my stride, in the sense of what I was going to say. But one point—
    Grant Robertson: Ha, ha.
    Hon Sir ROGER DOUGLAS: Yes, the honourable member for Wellington Central
    Grant Robertson: I haven’t even spoken yet.
27 Jul 2010                          Estimates Debate                                  12693

   Hon Sir ROGER DOUGLAS: No, I know, but the member raises an issue
constantly when he gets up, and I think his senior whip raised it today. It is an issue that
I would like to comment about, because I get rather sick of hearing about it all the time,
when what is said is basically so wrong. The claim is made, and it has been made today,
that had it not been for Labour paying off as much debt as it did during its period in
office, then New Zealand would be in great difficulty today, because we would have a
huge deficit. The story goes that had Labour taken National’s advice to lower taxes,
then obviously the deficit today would be much higher than it is and we would be in
huge difficulty. Of course, that is absolute rubbish. It is absolute nonsense.
   If we think about the period when Labour was in Government, we remember that
during that time Dr Cullen and his Labour colleagues increased tax in real terms—and I
emphasise “real terms”—by $5,500 per person a year, or $21,000 a year for a family of
four. In other words, Labour had an alternative: to increase expenditure in real terms by
$5,500 a year per person, or $21,000 a year for a family of four, which it did, or to
lower taxes. Had Labour lowered taxes during that period but refrained from increasing
Government expenditure, a lot of which was wasteful, then the deficit position would
have been precisely the same, but people would have had another $200 or $300 a week
in their pocket. How much better off New Zealanders would be today, had Labour not
wasted so much Government expenditure during its period in Government. So the idea
that Labour is promoting that it was prudent and that it paid off debt is absolute
nonsense. It could have paid off debt and still had major tax reductions, provided that it
did not have the wasteful expenditure that was equivalent to $5,000 a year, or $100 a
week, per person.
   The issue I want to raise with the Minister of Finance is in many ways an academic
one, but nevertheless it is an issue that I feel is important, because in many ways it goes
to the heart of New Zealand’s difficulty. It concerns the nature of our fiscal deficit.
Today and yesterday I did a bit of work on trying to reconcile the difference between
the core Crown operating balance and the net cash flows, or the Government’s
borrowing, of $13 billion. I do not think there is a table that enables one to do that. It is
incredibly difficult. There is a core Crown operating balance deficit of about $9 billion.
We can adjust that for Crown enterprise operating balances. So we can get one figure,
from which we have to, of course, deduct the non-financial instruments such as
depreciation, etc. Then we can add to that the cash flows from investment activities,
which amount to about $11.3 billion. That is when I got into difficulty, because I simply
could not find any table that demonstrated or showed me how the net purchases of
physical assets, which are shown as being worth $7.8 billion, were actually made up. I
could find capital expenditure in the departments of about $4.2 billion, but I was unable
to find the rest. It may be there somewhere, but it is certainly not in a convenient table,
and I would be interested to know what the Minister intends to do about that.
   But the point I raise, and it is why I was interested in this, is that I wanted to do a bit
of work on analysing the so-called capital expenditure to see whether it is really capital
expenditure. In other words, if it is not capital expenditure, then obviously the deficit is
greater than the Government says it is. When I look at some of the so-called capital
expenditure, I start to wonder whether it should be classified as being capital
expenditure. Expenditure on items like the National Library of New Zealand heritage
collection may be worthy expenditure, but is it really capital expenditure, or should it be
added to the deficit? The Ministry of Education’s quality reinvestment programme,
whatever that is, and the investment by the Ministry of Economic Development in the
external reporting of its Accounting Standards Review Board might be important items
of expenditure, but are they genuinely capital expenditure? There is also the issue of the
money—$300 or $400 million—that we are investing in KiwiRail. Is that really an item
12694                               Estimates Debate                           27 Jul 2010

of capital expenditure, when it will not add one dollar to the capital value of the
railways? How can those items and many others be regarded as capital expenditure,
when the Government is actually borrowing this money and it will never show a return?
In fact, it is not intended that it should earn an income.
   I think there is a real issue here as to whether some items of capital expenditure that
the Government incurs are really capital expenditure or should be classified more as
ordinary expenditure, and therefore shown above the deficit line rather than below the
line. This may appear to be a somewhat theoretical issue. But I think it is important,
because it seems to me that the way that the Government arrives at its fiscal deficit in
this country is somewhat different from the way that other Governments arrive at theirs.
I am fairly certain that if we did our accounting on the same basis as other countries do
theirs, then our deficit might be substantially higher than it is claimed to be.
   CRAIG FOSS (National—Tukituki): I will read a couple of very important points
on Vote Finance. This Government is about action, and a couple of points have been
missing from the discussion so far, but maybe other members will bring them up. As far
as action goes, on 1 October 2010 the tax rate for those people who earn under $14,000
will change from 12.5c in the dollar to 10.5c. That is action. For those whose income on
1 October 2010 is between $14,000 and $48,000, their tax rate will move down from 21
percent to 17.5 percent. More than two-thirds of New Zealanders will face a marginal
tax rate of no higher than 17.5c in the dollar. That is action and it puts paid to some of
the accusations from members opposite, who tend to go on endlessly.
   Those people on a taxable income of between $48,000 and $70,000 will no longer be
taxed at 33c in the dollar; their highest marginal tax rate will be 30c in the dollar. That
is outstanding action from a Government that has been in office for only 18 months.
This measure will come in on 1 October. For those on an income over $70,000, their tax
cut will be from 38c to 33c. So when we hear rhetoric from members opposite about
looking for action, from 1 October the after-tax incomes for New Zealanders will, first,
improve; second, be on the way to catching up with Australia; and, third, will mean that
we are well on the way to putting freedom, fairness, and equity back into the system.
   But, wait, there is more. Under this Government a married couple on superannuation
will be about $80 to $90 better off. This is due to indexation, the changes we have made
to after-tax incomes, and general increases in superannuation. Again, that is action, not
just the plans, general reports, and reviews that members opposite rave on about. And
wait, there is more under Vote Finance. From 1 April next year, corporate tax will move
from 30c to 28c in the dollar. We hear about catching up to Australia. Hold on, that rate
is lower than Australia’s! At the very best, it is going down to 29c in the dollar in
maybe 4 years or so. New Zealand is running ahead and is more ambitious for itself, if
you like, as far as business tax is concerned, with a tax rate of no more than 28c in the
   Hey, there is more. Yes, GST is being adjusted on 1 October as part of the tax
switch. Again, I always express my surprise that the Green Party does not vote for an
increase in consumption tax, because we hear Green members endlessly talking anti-
consumption. Well, there they go—there is a consumption tax, but they seem to vote
against it. I also note for the benefit of those listening that the Labour Opposition voted
against all these tax cuts and changes, and it continues to argue against them. But, to be
fair, it is par for the course for those members. They went for 9 years without cutting
taxes at all, other than for the cut in the corporate tax rate from 33c to 30c. I will give
them that one.
   We are using six planks to clean up our economic system. They are to clean up New
Zealand’s economy, to rebalance it, to refocus it, to put focus back in the front line, and,
most important, to put confidence back into New Zealanders, into their economy, and
27 Jul 2010                          Estimates Debate                                 12695

into the Government that manages their tax. We will be managing it prudently, as a
prudent manager of the economy. Part of those six planks, as I have just mentioned, is
tax reform. This country is seeing the biggest tax reform in 25 years. This Government
is getting out and backing New Zealand families and jobs. We will have better, smarter
public services. Thus far, up to $2 billion has been found through reprioritising money
within the public sector—up to $2 billion. The only contribution from members on the
other side of the Chamber was from the Hon Phil Goff, who spent his Christmas
thinking about something. He thought that he might cap the salaries of, I think, 50 or 60
or so public servants, having signed up a few years prior to giving them a 5 percent
annual increase for 5 years with those same players.
   Part of that is also national standards in education, which I alluded to earlier. It is
also boosting and investing in infrastructure, which is all about investing in the future of
New Zealand. We are unclogging the arteries and providing the infrastructure to allow
our exports to go to the ports and allow tourists to come in. We have an ambitious trade
agenda—$20 billion worth of aspirational targets with China.
   Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South): I want to ask the Minister in
the chair, the Hon David Carter, a question. What is the Government’s best estimate of
the additional cost flowing from the lack of credibility of the current Minister of
Finance, to the Government of borrowing? I want to know what the premium is on our
debt repayments from having a Minister of Finance who has no credibility in New
Zealand’s financial markets or internationally. I ask where in these estimates is the half
a million dollars that is to be repaid by the Minister of Finance, which is the money that
he, his family, or his trust has received as a result of declaring that he lives in Dipton. I
have been looking for it. I ask whether that money is sitting in these accounts, I ask
whether it is a credit against these expenditures, and, more important, I ask what the
cost to New Zealand is of having a Minister of Finance with the lack of credibility that
the current Minister of Finance has.
   I can go back a while. I was in this House with Sir Robert Muldoon—not while he
was the Minister of Finance and the Prime Minister, but in the period immediately
afterwards—and I cannot remember a time in all of those years when there has been a
Minister of Finance who was regarded as being suspect by the financial community,
someone who did not seem quite kosher, and someone whom we could not believe all
the time. Frankly, I ask who can blame those in the financial community, when they
know that they have a Minister of Finance who has declared that he lives in Dipton
when, in fact, everyone knows that he lives in Messines Road and that he has benefited
hugely, to the tune of at least half a million dollars, over the decade that that has
   If we were in some other country, there would be investigations. There would be
commissions. The person concerned would not be in the job, unless we were in a
corrupt country. If we were in a corrupt country, then the Prime Minister would accept
that sort of behaviour, but generally in New Zealand we have had much, much higher
standards of transparency than that. When the OECD has looked at us and at our
methods of ensuring that there is proper behaviour on the part of Ministers, it has had us
right up there, and we have been proud of that. We can work our way back.
   You know, I disagreed greatly, at different ends of the spectrum, with Sir Robert
Muldoon and Ruth Richardson, but one thing that one would never accuse either of
them of doing was making false declarations in order to personally benefit. There is a
possibility, I think, that if we go back to Keith Holyoake’s time, some of the actions of
that Government were slightly questionable, especially to do with the western access
road round Taupō and the personal benefit that the then Prime Minister gained from the
opening up of Kinloch. But I think it is fair to say that since that time, certainly in the
12696                               Estimates Debate                          27 Jul 2010

last 50 years of New Zealand politics, or pretty close, there has never been a question of
our interest rates being at a premium as a result of questions related to the credibility
and personal reputation of the Minister of Finance in the way that we have it today.
    I think it is particularly interesting that not a single member opposite is prepared to
defend Bill English in this matter. Clear reflections on his character are happening here,
and not one member opposite—
    Hon Gerry Brownlee: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I want to make it
clear that there is no response from members on this side of the Chamber, because we
simply consider Mr Mallard to be a complete—
    The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch): That is not a point of order.
    Hon TREVOR MALLARD: In the half-minute that I have left to me, I will
challenge members opposite to stand up and say in their next speech that they are
comfortable with the approach that has been taken by the Minister of Finance with
regard to the non-repayment of the half a million dollars that he has received. I want
those members to stand up and tell this Committee that they think that is the sort of
behaviour they want from their Minister of Finance.
    AMY ADAMS (National—Selwyn): It is a great pleasure to take a call in the
estimates debate on Vote Finance. I tell members right now that I will not waste any of
my contribution responding to the muck that the member Trevor Mallard continually
tries to throw at members on this side of the Chamber. It is clear that when a party like
Labour has nothing to offer people, its members resort to mud, muck, and baseless
allegations. New Zealand cares about getting this economy growing, getting New
Zealand moving, getting New Zealanders into jobs, raising incomes, and making this
country a place that New Zealanders want to live in and to be in. That is why I think we
can all be very proud of the work that our Minister of Finance and Prime Minister are
    The initiatives in this year’s Budget—and in Vote Finance, in particular—are central
to our economic growth strategy. This Government was elected overwhelmingly by the
people of New Zealand to lift the incomes of New Zealanders and to improve the
outlook for New Zealanders, and that is what we are doing. Let us be frank about this.
The polls are very clear: New Zealanders like what we are doing, and they are paying
no attention to that party over there, which is more interested in throwing mud and
laying baseless allegations before this House than it is in getting New Zealanders into
jobs and creating an economy that is sustainable, solid, and based on the productive
sector of the New Zealand economy.
    In my previous contribution to this estimates debate, I said that when Labour
members stand in this Chamber and talk about a lack of direction, it simply tells us one
thing. It simply tells us that they have no idea what an economic growth strategy looks
like. They would not recognise one if it came up and bit them. The work that this
Government is doing is working. Treasury is telling us that it will create 170,000 extra
jobs and extra household income of $7,000 per annum. Those are real, substantial, and
meaningful achievements. That is why this country is continuing to endorse the John
Key - led Government.
    Budget 2010 is focused on economic growth and on rebalancing the economy. A big
part of that is addressing the external liabilities that put our economy in great jeopardy.
The tax changes that my friend Mr Foss has already talked about are central to
addressing the concerning level of external liability that this country currently has.
    As well as the tax changes, the other part of that focus is the efforts that this
Government is making to control government expenditure. Those efforts are
meaningful. The Government is addressing the strong economy that we need, and
ensuring that our debt position is controlled—far more so than it would have been under
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                                12697

the previous Government, which just wanted to keep borrowing and ignoring the failing
of the productive sector. It also means that we are delivering better and smarter public
services. We are ensuring that the taxpayers’ money—money that hard-working New
Zealanders give us the privilege of spending—is spent on front-line services, not on
more bureaucrats, not on more red tape, and not on more bodies than endlessly study
and report on issues but do not deal with them, as we saw with the previous
Government. We are ensuring that the money is spent on real services for New
Zealanders, such as more doctors, more nurses, more midwives, and more police on our
streets, because that is what New Zealanders want.
    This Budget is about addressing the imbalances between our tradables and our non-
tradables sector, and making sure that jobs in this economy are real, that they are
sustainable, and that they support the parts of the economy that will see New Zealand
climb up the OECD rankings.
    This Budget is about productivity. It is about ensuring we have tight fiscal
management for the first time in a long time—about 9 years, I suggest; from about 1999
to 2008. We are seeing good fiscal discipline. We are seeing a Government that
understands the very simple lesson that every household learns: we have to earn money
before we can spend it. That is what the previous Government did: that Government
spent first, then earned later. This Government knows we have to earn the money first.
It is not rocket science, one would think. Most New Zealanders understand it. Heck, my
10-year-old daughter understands it. We have to earn the money first, then spend it. But
not Labour! Oh, no. Labour borrows and borrows.
    This Government understands that if we do not have the productive sector working
right, we are not earning any money and we cannot deliver the sorts of public services
we want for New Zealand. That is what this Budget is about. It is about better balance
sheet management, and ensuring that the $217 billion worth of assets that this
Government is responsible for are working for the people of New Zealand, who are the
owners of those assets. Thank you.
   Vote agreed to.
Vote Economic Development
    Hon DAVID PARKER (Labour): I rise to take call in respect of Vote Economic
    Jo Goodhew: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I seek clarification from you
as to whether each speaker is able to take two calls in each one of the votes, or just two
in the debate.
    The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch): It is two per vote.
    Hon Steve Chadwick: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Each time a member
seeks clarification, Labour is losing speaking time. I wonder whether the junior
Government whip could clarify things with the Leader of the House. [Interruption]
    The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch): The Minister knows he cannot interject
when he is the Minister in the chair. We will leave it at that point. Anyone is entitled to
raise a point of order. I hear what the member is saying, but anyone is entitled to raise a
point of order for clarification. I have ruled on this matter.
    Hon DAVID PARKER: The Government was elected on the promise that it would
close the wage gap with Australia by 2025. We have been trying to get clarity as to
some intermediate target, because of course by 2025 not many of us who are currently
in the House, if any, will be here. The current National-led Government will be long
gone. There has never been a 15-year Government for as long as I have been alive, and I
do not think this Government will be a 15-year Government. There is nothing in the
2025 target that enables the Opposition, or, indeed, members of the public, to hold the
12698                               Estimates Debate                          27 Jul 2010

Government to account. We want some intermediate targets, and we have not had any.
We have had an acknowledgment from the Minister for Economic Development that the
Government does not have any intermediate targets, and it is plain from the record that
there are not any.
   I want to reflect a little more on the difference with Australia. At the moment the
Nobel Laureate in economics, Joseph Stiglitz, is on a tour of Australia. It has been
reported that he has been complimentary of the Australian response to the recession. I
can understand why, because Australia has done so much better in the recession than the
National-led Government has done in New Zealand. Indeed, the contrast between
Australia and New Zealand is stark. Since the recession started, the Australian stimulus
package has been effective, and unemployment has gone down. In New Zealand, the
stimulus package from the New Zealand Government did not work as effectively, and
unemployment has risen. In New Zealand, wage growth has stalled. I think wage
growth for the first 3 months of this year was virtually nil; it was a very, very low rate,
anyway. In contrast, wage growth in Australia is still reasonable. The wage gap between
New Zealand and Australia, contrary to Mr Brownlee’s assertion at question time today,
has actually increased, not decreased. I am very, very surprised that the Minister has not
corrected that statement in the Hansard record as yet.
   I could forgive the Minister if there was some measure by which he could assert the
gap to be closing. There are three standard measures of the earnings gap between New
Zealand and Australia. The first and most relevant is what people actually earn—their
wages and salaries. That is what people understand when the Government says it will
close the wage gap with Australia. It means that the gap will get smaller, not bigger. If
somehow salaries could be separated out and we could find out that that gap has closed,
then maybe that assertion could be made. But neither the wage gap nor the salary gap
has closed. Of course, during the period since National has been in office wage and
salary growth in New Zealand has been lower than in Australia. On that measure, the
wage gap has not closed. That seems to me to be the end of it.
   We might ask about per capita GDP. If we measure that, we see that the gap has got
bigger, not smaller. Gross domestic product has been increasing at a higher rate, off a
higher base, in Australia than it has in New Zealand. On this measure, the gap has also
become wider. That is two out of two.
   What about if we take per person available to work? That is a wee bit different from
the average wages for someone who is in full-time employment, because it includes
people who would like to work but cannot because they are unemployed. On that
measure, too, the gap has become wider. Since National took office in New Zealand, the
unemployment rate has gone up in New Zealand and down in Australia. Again, I would
suggest that if we are assessing earnings per available worker, then we see that the gap
between New Zealand and Australia has grown larger.
   The Minister for Economic Development today in question time could not answer
the question of what the wage gap between New Zealand and Australia is. He would not
even give us a rough idea of the wage gap between New Zealand and Australia. I am
surprised by that, given that the central plank of National’s campaign at the last election
was that the gap was too big and that National was going to narrow it, and cause it to
disappear by 2025. I am surprised that the Minister did not know, even within a bull’s
roar, what the difference is. I am even more surprised that he thought the gap was
getting smaller.
   Hon Gerry Brownlee: No, better.
   Hon DAVID PARKER: No, smaller. You said at question time that the gap was
   Hon Gerry Brownlee: He never said a word.
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                               12699

    Hon DAVID PARKER: Mr Brownlee said that.
    The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch): Can I just remind the Minister and Leader
of the House that when one is the Minister sitting in the chair no interjections are
permitted, even though they may be humorous. This is not the place to interject from.
    Hon Gerry Brownlee: My sincere apologies. I was deeply provoked.
    The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch): And now the Minister is questioning me!
    Hon DAVID PARKER: It is not a matter of hilarity that the Minister for Economic
Development does not know what the wage gap is between New Zealand and Australia,
when it was such a central plank for National at the last election. We can be pretty clear
now that the Minister for Economic Development does not have a credible plan for
bridging the gap with Australia. He does not know what that gap is, and he does not
know that it is going in the wrong direction rather than the right direction.
    The central plank of his economic development platform was a step change in
mining in New Zealand. It was going to cause a step change in New Zealand’s
economic fortunes, but it has disappeared. It has evaporated. He was overruled by his
Cabinet colleagues, who, in the end, heard that what the Opposition was saying was
right all along. It is inappropriate to mine in national parks. He has been forced to
abandon mining in national parks and other schedule 4 lands, and there is nothing to
replace it. There is some good being done in respect of mineral exploration in other
parts of New Zealand, but that work was going on anyway. There has been no step
change in that. The Minister might get to his feet and say that the Government is
spending about $25 million on data acquisition in respect of gas and oil exploration.
Well, that is true. I ask what the previous Government spent on that. I think it was $22
million over a period of 4 or 5 years. From memory, it was a very similar amount. No
step change is coming from that.
    The reality is that Australia continues to march on ahead of New Zealand, and the
National Government is not taking any meaningful step towards bridging that gap.
Indeed, it is going in the wrong direction in respect of savings and investment, and that
is the big difference between the New Zealand and Australian economies. It is far more
significant than the difference in mining. The Government has no plan to increase New
Zealand’s savings or to increase the depth of our capital markets to catch up with
Australia’s capital markets in a way that would enable us to have improvements in
productivity, such as Australia has had in recent years. Australia has better savings and
more money to invest in its productive enterprises, and, therefore, it is marching ahead
of us at a time when National has been caught in the headlights. Joseph Stiglitz said that
Australia has a good plan to get out of the recession, or to avoid recession. However, we
have none.
    Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Minister for Economic Development): That last
comment from the Opposition spokesperson for economic development, the Hon David
Parker, in many ways typifies Labour’s problem. He quotes some chap who has done a
little bit of analysis in Australia.
    Hon Members: Ha, ha!
    Hon GERRY BROWNLEE: They laugh. Once again, they look for the silver bullet
all the time. They look for someone else to tell them what to do and how to do it. I think
it is extraordinary that Opposition members could come in here today and question the
Government about economic direction when, having just been, I suppose, booted out by
the New Zealand public after 9 years of exceptional mismanagement, they expect
everything to change overnight. Other than that, Labour members expect us to believe
that what they were doing was absolutely perfect. What they were doing was apparently
exactly right. Well, it should come as no surprise to anybody that during the 9 years of
the previous Labour Government, the New Zealand GDP rose by $10,700 per capita.
12700                              Estimates Debate                          27 Jul 2010

That sounds great, does it not? But if we look across the Tasman, Australia’s GDP
during that time rose by $19,700 per capita, which is almost twice the rate. Labour
members come in here all righteous about what they were doing, attacking the current
Government, and expecting that after 9 years of abject failure, everything should be put
right in 15 months. Well, that is utterly pathetic.
   Grant Robertson: How about something?
   Hon GERRY BROWNLEE: That member is still after the silver bullet, and it does
not exist. Fortunately, the Government does not pretend it exists. We have said that
New Zealand needs to lift its economic performance across all sectors of the economy.
That is what we are about. That has been our record over the last 15 months or so. I
remember the previous Labour Government coming in in 2000 and setting up the “jobs
machine”. What a huge and abject failure that was. Apparently, that was a milestone
that they could be measured against, and it was an utter failure. Having failed then, the
previous Labour Government brought in what it called “economic transformations”,
which was going to be a milestone that it could be measured on.
   Hon David Parker: It transformed to custard.
   Hon GERRY BROWNLEE: I have just explained that the New Zealand economy
went back for those 9 years, so that did not go too well. Then Labour came out with this
wonderful thing called Fast Forward New Zealand. The problem was that after 6 years,
Labour recognised that it was in some sort of replay, so it had to rename it to New
Zealand Fast Forward. Labour brought in Growing an Innovative New Zealand, the
growth and innovation framework. What happened to it? Where is it? What was the new
stuff that happened in New Zealand during those 9 disastrous years? It simply does not
exist. Then 2 years out from the election, Labour members said they had better do
something, so they brought in the economic transformation agenda. Well I ask them
where it is, what happened to it, and where it went.
   By comparison, the Government of New Zealand today has a much, much simpler
approach to things. Firstly, we want to recognise the parts of the economy that can
grow, and we have done that. We are talking to them and we are assisting them.
Secondly, we are getting out of their road. We have done that through changes to the
Resource Management Act, to the way in which we require all sorts of compliance, and
also through the tax system. We have rebalanced the tax system in favour of savings
and productive investment. We are in the process of reforming the electricity market.
Members should look at it. It is just one small sector, which saw a 72 percent price
increase in 9 years, compared with the much, much flatter rate that we have achieved in
such a very short period of time.
   Then, of course, there is the support that goes into business. One of the ironies I
discovered is that New Zealand Trade and Enterprise has been handing out these things
called market development grants. If people gave Jim Anderton, Pete Hodgson, Maryan
Street, or Trevor Mallard a photograph of their factory, they got a grant. Fill out the
boxes, provide the photograph, and they got a grant. What did that achieve? Absolutely
nothing. We were going backwards. Our exports were in decline.
   What is more, we have brought in a programme of productive infrastructure. Years
of neglect of our roading infrastructure is being put right by the current Government.
Not one person sitting in this House can mount an argument against that. Then there
were the years of talk from Pete Hodgson, Maryan Street, and Trevor Mallard about the
need to get our broadband network up and running. That was talk, talk, talk. Along
came David Cunliffe, and he brought the sword out and chopped the thing to bits. He
had no idea how to put it back together. Finally, we get a new Government that is
making the investments necessary to see New Zealand capable of performing at the
cutting edge in the decades to come. We have unashamedly begun to reform the labour
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                               12701

market, which means that more people get a go in the workforce. How could that be
    I heard this afternoon people attack the Prime Minister by saying he had broken his
word to the Council of Trade Unions. Well, I do not know what the Council of Trade
Unions thought he said to them, but I can tell members that it certainly was not that we
should drag New Zealanders back to the Stone Age, give them lower wages, and keep
them suppressed, because that is what the Council of Trade Unions is all about.
    We are improving education and skills. We are cutting red tape and regulation. Our
trade strategy is working to open up new markets. We have negotiations right now with
Gulf States, Korea, and India, and we are looking to open up those negotiations with
Russia. We are supporting business research, not some pie-in-the-sky, Mickey Mouse,
make-it-up-as-you-go tax credit. We are putting genuine cash, $234 million worth, on
the table for people who are doing legitimate research.
    We also want to get that link between the science and innovation system and the
business community by not only renaming but also reorganising the way in which the
Government contributes to science and innovation in New Zealand with the new
Ministry of Science and Innovation. In my own area, in New Zealand Trade and
Enterprise, we have refocused on growing those international markets. It is no good
providing opportunities for people to trade if they do not have the back up to get into
those markets. If businesses do not make sales, they cannot employ people to make the
goods, to process the goods, or to add the value to the goods. We have set up the
International Growth Fund with a very large amount of discretion as to how New
Zealand Trade and Enterprise can assist businesses to get into the international
marketplace. Some years ago Jim Anderton said that this country needed 100 new large-
scale enterprises if we were going to progress. I ask members, 9 years later, to name just
    Hon David Carter: Sovereign Yachts.
    Hon GERRY BROWNLEE: Well, it could be Sovereign Yachts. There is a classic
example. The previous Government poured millions of dollars into it. It had the then
Prime Minister up there with a photograph, and Jim Anderton up there getting a
photograph. They had everybody lauding all over the country the great success of
Sovereign Yachts. It was supposed to produce 300 jobs and $600 million through
revenue for the country inside 5 years. What did it produce? Absolutely nothing! Those
examples could be given to this Committee over and over again.
    In the areas of primary production, we have a great, great opportunity with the work
that David Carter is doing in making sure that that comes to the fore of where our
economic future will be most enhanced. It will be the backbone of the New Zealand
economy for years to come. Getting the best out of it is the total focus of Mr Carter and
his department. What my department, the Ministry of Economic Development, can do is
stand alongside those companies that are in international markets to try to make life a
bit easier for them. That is happening with the wine industry, the aquaculture industry,
and the meat industry. Those are industries that have enormous capacity for growth.
Labour sits over there and asks where it will all come from. It will come as no surprise
that the country with the fourth-largest sea space in the world had an aquaculture
industry that in the year 2000 produced less than $300 million in exports, and today it is
still the same because those guys neglected it. We will assist it to be a billion-dollar
industry in quick time. That is economic development, not all those slogans we heard
recounted before.
    GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour—Wellington Central): When we look at Vote
Economic Development, we are looking for a plan to grow the economy. For the benefit
of my National colleagues opposite, I will give them a definition of the word “plan”,
12702                               Estimates Debate                          27 Jul 2010

because it is quite clear that they do not have any understanding of it. The American
Heritage Dictionary of the English Language tells us that a plan is “A scheme,
programme, or method worked out beforehand for the accomplishment of an
    Let us look at National’s plan. We can see the objective. We know the objective is to
close the wage gap with Australia by 2025. It does not matter that the wage gap between
Australia and New Zealand increased in the 1990s from 18.9 percent to 28.4 percent,
and that it has basically stayed steady since then. Let us think about what happened in
the 1990s. It was the period of the Employment Contracts Act. We now see coming
from National an economic plan that is based on attacking workers’ rights and cutting
conditions in the workplace. That is the substance of the plan as we have heard it so far
from John Key and National, and, historically, in terms of economic development, that
attack is what caused the wage gap between Australia and New Zealand to grow.
    Part of National’s scheme or programme to try to reach that objective was the 2025
Taskforce. Half a million dollars was spent, and the report was trashed on the first day.
In fact, it was trashed before the first day. National Ministers were desperately spinning
against their former leader Don Brash saying that his ideas were not their ideas. Don
Brash overspent, spending the taskforce’s whole budget in the first year, but National
ignored that. He blew the budget, but National did not want to know about it.
    In terms of an actual plan for economic development, we have seen the Job Summit,
which gave us the cycleway. Cycleways are, in and of themselves, terrific, but in terms
of a step change for economic development, they are useless. Almost no jobs have come
from it, and it is certainly not a step change plan for the economy.
    We also heard about mining, which brings us to the essence of National’s economic
development plan. This was going to be the step change. It was going to be what gets us
there in the future. Instead, there was a screeching of tyres as Gerry Brownlee was
rolled by the rest of Cabinet. He has gone; there is no plan for mining and no plan for
jobs. It is kicking the tyres and it is trickle-down economics, when what New Zealand
needs is not a kicking of the tyres but some fuel put in the engine. And what puts fuel in
the engine of economic development more than anything else is skills and innovation.
    Skills and innovation have been abandoned in Vote Economic Development. There
is no Skills Strategy. The current Government likes to belittle the idea of a strategy. The
Skills Strategy was a combined effort by Business New Zealand, the New Zealand
Council of Trade Unions, and the Government to plan for having a skilled workforce in
New Zealand. Since National has been in Government, we have heard absolutely
nothing whatsoever about the Skills Strategy or about skills. The only contribution that
we hear from the National Government in terms of skills is about cutting money from
adult and community education, cutting money from intensive literacy and numeracy
funds, and cutting money from polytechnics. There will be $70 million coming out of
the polytechnic sector over the next couple of years. Those are the places where we get
skilled New Zealanders from. That area is the engine room of economic development,
and it is being completely abandoned by this Government—completely left alone.
    The Government is not prepared to plan for the long term; it is looking only for the
photo opportunities. There is no plan for economic development. If we want to look
across to Australia and look at the role of skills in developing that economy, we see that
Australia has a plan to increase the number of people with degrees to 40 percent of the
population. It is currently at 31 percent. Our percentage is in the 20s, and it is going
down. We have no plan to catch up to Australia and grow wages, because we have no
plan to do the things that will grow wages, like creating a skilled workforce and creating
a productive work environment. We have none of that coming from this Government.
We have no plan coming from this Government in the area of economic development.
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                                12703

   If all we can get is poll-driven U-turns on mining and a lack of vision for investing in
a new economy with new jobs and technology and making the best of our skill base and
our productive workforce, then we will go nowhere. Unfortunately, that is what we are
seeing from this Government.
   When it comes to the question of innovation, Mr Brownlee and others like to say that
they have renamed a few things and rebranded the odd idea. That is not enough. If we
want proper economic development in this country, we need a plan that harnesses skills
and productivity.
   Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Minister for Economic Development): I mentioned
in my earlier speech that dreadful company called Sovereign Yachts. It was the flagship
of the previous Labour Government’s economic development outreach. What has just
been made clear to me—
   Hon Trevor Mallard: What rubbish.
   Hon GERRY BROWNLEE: Mr Mallard was one of the strongest supporters of a
gentleman called Mr Bill Lloyd. Mr Mallard was a senior Minister in the previous
Government, and he was one of the biggest hand-shakers in that entire Government of
anybody who looked flash. One of the most extraordinary things that that Government
did, in the name of economic development, was to take an $11.6 million property on the
Auckland waterfront and give it to Mr Lloyd and Sovereign Yachts for a mere
$500,000. Apparently, that was about economic development because it was going to
deliver 350 jobs to New Zealanders. Did they ever eventuate? No, and what happened to
the business? Well, eventually, it went out of business. In this last year it was finally
wound up. When the creditors came along, they thought: “Thank goodness the stupid
Labour Government sold an $11.6 million property for $500,000 because at least there
will be enough asset to liquidate to ensure that New Zealanders—hard-working
businesses, hard-working sub-trades, and hard-working people who employ hundreds of
New Zealanders—will not be out of pocket.”, but they were extremely disappointed.
   On the one hand, they were excited to find out that the $500,000 property was now
worth $36 million and that there was a queue of buyers to get hold of it. But,
unfortunately, that friend of the Labour Government, that great mate of Trevor, Helen,
Michael, and, of course, their dear friend Jim, was able to shuffle that property out of
his business and into his own pocket, and he remains the owner of it today.
   We saw “economic development” Labour-style when the previous Government
crowed from the rooftops about how clever it was to get a company like Sovereign
Yachts into New Zealand. Effectively, it said to the company: “Here’s a massive pot of
cash”—although the country does not know how much Labour gave out in cash—“and
here’s a whopping great gift to Mr Lloyd in the form of a wonderful waterfront
property, valued at $11.6 million, but we’ll sell it to you for $500,000.” Labour
discounted that property out of the door like some sort of cheap sale. But some time
later Mr Lloyd gave the two-fingered sign and walked off, and kept that property, which
had a value of $36 million and rising.
   So that is “economic development” Labour-style. Yet Labour members came into the
Chamber today and wanted to know where the plan was and where the strategy was. I
am not surprised that they asked, because frankly they could not see a plan if it was put
in front of them, and they would not know a strategy if they fell over the top of it. New
Zealanders should be utterly outraged that Labour has learnt so little from the
humiliation of the last election that it continues to try to justify deals like that. It
continues to try to say that if only the Labour Government had been able to carry on in
that vein, then New Zealanders would be better off. Well, I tell members opposite one
thing: New Zealanders would be better off if each and every one of them got a deal that
allowed them to put up $500,000 to reap $36 million, about 10 short years later.
12704                                Estimates Debate                           27 Jul 2010

   The National Government is assiduously working through all sectors of the economy
but, more important, it is working with those sectors to see what their opportunities are;
to stand alongside them; where it is necessary, to get out of their road; to take out the
regulatory roadblocks that prevent them from growing; and to encourage them to go out
there and make the best of the opportunities that they have in front of them. That is what
economic development should be about. The problem with Labour is that it thinks that
if Cabinet does not prescribe it particularly, then it does not exist. It thinks that if
Cabinet does not come up and say: “This is what we’re going to do.”, then no one
should be doing it. Well, our view is that we trust the New Zealand business community
to respond to the policies that we are putting in place. I listed them at length earlier, and
that will see greater economic growth for New Zealanders.
   Vote agreed to.
Vote Energy
    Hon NANAIA MAHUTA (Labour—Hauraki-Waikato): The Minister in the
chair, the Hon Gerry Brownlee, may know, or think he knows, where the rubber hits the
road, but the problem is, figuratively speaking, that his tyres lack traction. He does not
have a plan in the energy portfolio for what “forward” looks like, and despite the fact
that when he took on the energy portfolio he gave an undertaking that he would review
the Energy Strategy, it has taken him 18 months to release the draft Energy Strategy for
consultation. On top of that, he has given only 6 weeks for consultation. The draft
strategy is light in detail. It reverses previous decisions made under Labour, in favour of
National’s preference—a greater reliance on fossil fuels and thermal generation. It is a
backward step. It is not a step change and it is not a comprehensive or coherent strategy
for the future.
    In fairness to the Minister, I note that he spoke previously about reforms that were
taken to ease economic development, and I would have thought that he would apply the
same argument to the mining sector. I am referring to the changes to the Resource
Management Act. Well, what did that do? Sure, it sped up consents for significant
projects, but also it constrained public input into decision making. I do not think that is
a step forward; it is a step backward. He continued to report a number of the gains made
by the National Government—or was it a gain to remove the ban on thermal generation,
to remove the 5 percent biofuel obligation, or to push out the intent of the 90 percent
renewable targets to 2025?
    The whole aim of what this Minister is trying to do in the energy portfolio needs to
be better positioned and discussed, because his strategy is light on detail. The Minister
chooses to ride the cart when the horse has already bolted. Kiwis want a responsible
approach to dealing with the real issues concerning them. They do not want an
irresponsible mining regime where proper protections and limitations are considered
fully, prior to consenting to deep-sea drilling. The Minister made the point at the select
committee that observers from his ministry are over in the Gulf of Mexico looking at
what had happened over there, taking the lessons forward, and considering that matter.
Well, why does the Minister not start to tell the New Zealand public, or even this
Parliament, about what those findings are and what he is doing to put greater protections
around deep-sea drilling in Aotearoa New Zealand? Those are the types of concerns that
Kiwis want to know about.
    It is just as well the Minister finally did a U-turn after a march in Queen Street
attracted a turn-out of about 40,000 against mining on schedule 4 protected lands. Well,
did it need public consultation? Did 40,000 people need to march when by virtue of the
creation of schedule 4 the Minister already knew that people feel very strongly about
those lands? How much was spent on that process? I know that the people in my
27 Jul 2010                           Estimates Debate                                   12705

electorate of Hauraki are very happy that the Minister listened to the common sense of
what was already known when the development of schedule 4 took place. People feel
very passionately about their natural heritage and their special and unique places in the
conservation estate.
   Iwi want better consultation and engagement on mining applications where they have
significant interests, such as those in the Reinga Basin in Te Tai Tokerau and
Raukūmara in the East Cape. Just today there is an article in the Gisborne Herald with
the headline: “Outrage at latest mining application”. It states that the Minister “has
ridden rough-shod over the mana of our people.” Another article has the headline: “ ‘No
obligation’ to tell the public of applications”. I tell the Minister that that is a travesty, as
the public do have a significant interest in his mining agenda.
   Equally important, household consumers want assurances on basic household
impacts like power prices. What is the Minister’s track record on listening to these
concerns? In December 2008 Genesis increased prices by up to 9 percent, and John Key
said he was disappointed. In February 2009 Meridian Energy increased power prices by
6.5 percent for 180,000 of its customers. The Minister said that this was very, very
   In February of this year Contact Energy increased electricity prices by 5 percent for
over 300,000 households. Gerry Brownlee advised customers to shop around. This
month Mercury Energy increased power prices by 3.3 percent for all its consumers, and
Contact Energy increased power prices by 3.2 percent for all its customers, and by over
10 percent for some customers in Dunedin. What are consumers told to do? They are
told to shop around. How do Kiwi households compensate for that?
   KEVIN HAGUE (Green): Tēnā koe, Mr Chair. Tēnā koe te Whare. Tēnā koutou e
hoa mā. The previous speaker mentioned the Government’s draft New Zealand Energy
Strategy, and I thought I might begin with that point also. Perhaps the strategy is
unkindly criticised by the New Zealand Herald, which talks about its lack of detail and
content. Probably the New Zealand Herald has not understood that the strategy is one of
those aspirational strategies that talk in a hand-wavy kind of way about goals, without
actually including any content about how we might achieve those goals.
   I want to talk about two of the gaps. This draft strategy says nothing about energy
planning. It says nothing about how much energy is needed, where we need it, and
when. The other gap I want to talk about is the fact that it says nothing about the
necessary, and now urgent, reform that we require in electricity generation, and, in
particular, in decision making about electricity generation. I think it was Shakespeare
who said: “There is a tide in the affairs of men”, and I think we would agree, probably
at least in our party—and I am sure that other parties around the Chamber would
agree—that perhaps the tide has now completely gone out on the idea that decisions
about essential infrastructure for New Zealand can be left to the free market. Yet in
electricity generation we still have the flotsam and jetsam of the free-market zeal of the
1980s and 1990s; it is actually still dominating this part of the energy sector.
   In my shadow portfolios I talk to a lot of communities around the country about
electricity issues, and I come across two things: communities with really great ideas
about electricity generation that they cannot get off the ground, and electricity
generation ideas from the big power companies that are steadfastly opposed by
communities. So there are two different problems there.
   Most people support the idea that we ought, in electricity generation, to make
decisions from the perspective of the public good. They think that if we know how
much electricity generation we need, we can identify all the options for generating
electricity and compare the advantages and disadvantages of each from the point of
view of the public good. They are astonished to learn that what we actually do bears no
12706                               Estimates Debate                          27 Jul 2010

resemblance at all to that. Instead we have no plan for how much energy is needed and
    Instead we have only those proposals from the big companies that get advanced into
the resource consent decision-making process, and there is a “first come, first served”
basis for that decision making. We have no ability to compare schemes. This is all
counter-intuitive; none of it is what we would do if we were approaching electricity
generation from the public-good perspective. It is a process that is virtually guaranteed
to produce suboptimal outcomes. It will never result in conservation schemes to match
supply and demand, and it will never result in the small-scale distributed generation that
is almost certainly the best option for New Zealand.
    By chance the public has the opportunity to compare two schemes on the West Coast
of the South Island. Either of these schemes would be sufficient to produce self-
sufficiency for the West Coast. There is a scheme promoted by Hydro Developments
that would take the acid-polluted water from the Stockton Plateau, drop it to sea level,
discharge it out to sea, and have a net positive environmental impact.
    The Hydro Developments scheme is being opposed in the Environment Court by two
State-owned enterprises, Meridian Energy and Solid Energy. Both of those companies
seem to have pretty spurious reasons for opposing the scheme, and I am inclined to
suspect that it may be to do with their interests in their own generation schemes. It is
both scandalous and unethical behaviour on the part of State-owned enterprises.
    Meridian Energy’s scheme, by way of contrast, would flood 300 hectares of pristine
public conservation land, the largest-ever inundation of conservation land in New
Zealand history. It exemplifies the set of values that we see again and again.
    Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Minister of Energy and Resources): I will respond
briefly to the concerns raised about the proposed New Zealand Energy Strategy before I
talk more broadly about the energy sector as a whole. The first point I make is that I
noted the editorial in the New Zealand Herald this morning, but I make it clear to the
Committee that I have long since given up any hope that the New Zealand Herald might
write anything positive about anything that I do. It seems to have a particular bent that I
can do very little about. But I think the editorial showed that the analysis was incredibly
trite. For a start, the strategy is a discussion document, and had there been a
comparison—which we might have reasonably expected the editor of the New Zealand
Herald to engage in—considering the proposed Energy Strategy against the existing
Energy Strategy, I am sure that he, she, or whoever that anonymous person was might
have been able to conclude that the new document is far more realistic for New
Zealand’s current circumstances.
    The other point I make is that although we produce those documents, they are merely
snapshots of thinking at a time. Inasmuch as the 2007 document became rapidly out of
date, that possibly will be the case with the new one as well. It is just the nature of the
way things happen. The salient points are that New Zealand in the last year produced 73
percent of all its consumed electricity from renewable sources, and I think that trend is
likely to continue in the years ahead.
    In preparing the document I was mindful that a very considerable number of consents
for new capacity are granted currently. New Zealand needs about 175 megawatts of new
capacity each year, and that is before we start looking at any savings we might make
through conservation or better use of the energy sources. As at April 2010 we have
5,390 megawatts of projects currently under construction or consented to. That indicates
to me that we are in a solid position as far as security of supply is concerned. Of those
projects, 287 megawatts are currently under construction, and Contact Energy is
building its new peaker project at Stratford, which will be a significant fillip not only
for the development of the geothermal resource but also for the wind resource as well.
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                                12707

    One thing that people need to understand is that apart from geothermal, which is
fairly consistent, the other forms of renewable energy can be subject to constraint at
various times, because the water can run out and the wind may not blow but demand
continues throughout that period. The proposed Energy Strategy attempts to balance the
requirements of the nation for its thermal back-up while promoting the concept of New
Zealand developing further its extraordinary renewable resources. It is a pity that the
New Zealand Herald did not bother to come and ask some questions about it, because
clearly its staff did not have time to read the entire thing before they wrote their shoddy
little editorial this morning. That will surprise nobody in this Chamber.
    We are also engaged in securing the quality of the transmission network in New
Zealand. Since coming into Government we have approved Transpower’s expenditure
of some $5 billion to strengthen that network over the coming years but, most
important, we have embarked on a review of the way in which electricity is marketed in
this country. That has led us to the new electricity bill that is currently before
Parliament, and I would expect to see the Electricity (Continuance of Supply)
Amendment Bill passed into law later this year. The early effects of the changes that are
incorporated in that bill are very, very encouraging. In the year from May 2009 to May
2010, the actual price increase for electricity to retail consumers was around 2.9
percent; contrast that with the 72 percent increase over the prior 9 years. It is almost
two-thirds smaller than the previous, very steep price path. That is an achievement that
the Government can be very, very pleased about. It is a trend that we want to see
continuing. I think we are in good shape as far as energy is concerned, and I think the
estimates show that.
   Vote agreed to.
Vote Commerce agreed to.
Vote Justice
   Hon SIMON POWER (Minister of Justice): I will have to take a call on this vote. I
cannot let the entire justice sector pass by without a comment being made by anybody
in the Chamber. I find it remarkable that nobody in the Committee rose to take a call on
the justice sector, as it is one of the most important components of the Government’s
work, and one that has received some legislative attention in recent times.
   I think it is worth starting by thanking the Justice and Electoral Committee for its
extremely hard work over the last short while, and, indeed, the work that it is about to
do as part of the result of the estimates hearing. In recent times the committee has had a
prodigious work rate. In fact, to this point 14 bills have been referred by me to the
committee, and it has handled them all extremely well. They have ranged from smaller
bills to very large bills.
                       Sitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.
    Hon SIMON POWER: I was surprised when we got to Vote Justice just before the
dinner break, because no one wanted to take a call. I decided that I had better stand up
and say something; otherwise the entire justice sector would have passed through a vote
in the Committee stage of the estimates debate without anybody from any other political
party making a comment. I am pleased to see that on the Committee resuming a number
of people with an interest in Vote Justice are here, and I look forward to hearing them
make a contribution.
    Before the dinner break, I was—
    Hon Darren Hughes: Which ones?
12708                               Estimates Debate                           27 Jul 2010

   Hon SIMON POWER: Well, specifically not Mr Hughes; it is not his strong point.
Before the dinner break I was thanking the select committee for its enormous work rate
over the last 18 months, and I was about to embark on a bit of insight into what the 18
months ahead may look like for that committee as part of the estimates process, which
of course is forward-looking as opposed to backward-looking. The common thread that
bound those initial reforms, the 14 bills that the committee dealt with during that 18
months, and that will continue to keep that committee busy is, frankly, the need to
protect the vulnerable. That will continue to run through justice policy in the year ahead.
We have an ongoing review of victims’ rights, which is currently having its submissions
looked through by the Ministry of Justice; the Government’s response to the Task Force
for Action on Sexual Violence; and further changes to sentencing for crimes against
children. I will talk in my remaining time a bit more about some of these reforms and
other priorities for the coming year.
   In addition to the way that we will look at Part 8 of the Crimes Act, “Crimes against
the person”, the year ahead will also see reform to some of the institutions through
which the justice system functions. Institutions often evolve, particularly in the justice
sector, through precedent, tradition, history, repeated practices, and the like. Those
institutions need to provide continuity and predictability for those who use the justice
system. But the danger is that such incrementalism can lose sight of the fact that
society’s expectations may have changed with regard to those institutions. The review
of legal aid by Dame Margaret Bazley in the last 18 months showed us that reform in
this area could not wait. The Government has largely accepted Dame Margaret Bazley’s
recommendations, and plans to implement the key recommendations over the next 2
years. Some of the changes will require legislative amendment, and I intend to introduce
that legislation very shortly.
   Simplification of the criminal justice system will also feature in the year ahead. One
of the historic points that is worth making in the Committee is that when I first became
the Minister of Justice everybody told me that in order to fix problems in the justice
system, all that the Government needed to do were two things: appoint more judges, and
build more courthouses. It struck me that that must have been the advice that all of my
predecessors had received over a long period of time, and nobody had sat down and
asked himself or herself what is was about the justice system that actually needed to be
   Hon Darren Hughes: He’s a watershed Minister!
   Hon SIMON POWER: Somebody has to do something around here, I say to Mr
Hughes. So members of the Committee—[Interruption]—now that I have started, I am
not going to stop. Now that this piece of work is well under way—and the first, discrete
part of that reform was dealt with in the audiovisual links legislation recently in the
House—more legislation in this area will be coming forward.
   Some of the other work that is likely to arrive in the House this year is work that
relates to the Law Commission’s report in respect of changes to the legislation dealing
with alcohol. Those changes, which are making their way through the system presently,
will probably be the largest piece of work that the select committee will deal with over
the next 12 to 18 months. The issue is not uncomplicated, and it will test the skills of the
very able chair of that committee and his able colleagues as they work their way
through it, trying to determine whether appropriate legislation can target the real harm
and the impact that alcohol has, particularly on the wider justice system.
   Also within the ambit of Vote Justice in the year ahead will be the confirmation of
work done on the interaction between the citizenry and the State by way of elections,
which means that we will work our way through the second reading, Committee stage,
and third reading of legislation asking the public whether they wish to have a binding
27 Jul 2010                          Estimates Debate                                  12709

referendum on MMP. If that legislation makes its way through all stages of the House,
then that will occur. The first two questions as part of that process will occur at the 2011
election. And of course all members of the House will be anxious to cast aside historic
grievances and deal in a sensible and forward-looking way with the matter of electoral
finance reform. I look forward to continuing discussions with colleagues on all sides of
the House about that historically rather controversial issue. But I have no doubt that it
will not contain the same level of vitriol and controversy that it did, as we move into the
future in a way that hopefully will see some of the issues that remain controversial for
some members on either side of the House ironed out in a way that will see electoral
finance law reform endure beyond just one election.
    These are exciting times for Vote Justice, and I ask all members of this Committee to
join me in this debate in advancing their own thoughts on how to improve the justice
system in the years ahead.
    DAVID GARRETT (ACT): I will begin not as my notes would have it but by
taking up the Minister of Justice’s invitation. He mentioned that the advice he has
received, which he suspects that all of his predecessors received, was to build more
courthouses and to appoint more judges. Well, I say to the Minister, how about getting
judges to work harder. In this country, judges seem to work from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m., 5
days a week. In other jurisdictions, such as Singapore and the USA, night courts and
weekend courts are a common feature, and for a very good reason. The old maxim, of
course, that “justice delayed is justice denied” is extremely important, and it goes back
as far as the Magna Carta. In our view, this Government should have a target of having
all cases heard and decided within 1 year of charges being laid.
    That is not an impossible task, at all. At the moment, courthouses lie idle from 4
o’clock or 4:30 until 9 or 10 o’clock the next morning. That can easily change. The
Minister will probably have some problems getting existing judges to work harder, but
there is no good reason with the queue of people wishing to be District Court judges,
that those who wish to be appointed could not be appointed on contracts that require
them to work the night shift from time to time, as the rest of society does. The delays
that we have seen are unfair to victims, and they are unfair to the accused. Victims have
the right to have the cases of which they are central—and in my view victims are
central, not the State—resolved quickly. Likewise, the accused have the right to their
presumption of innocence, and to have their trials brought as quickly as possible.
    There was one high-profile example just recently of how the system is not working. I
am not a sports fan, but I am told that the fellow Rene Ranger is a well-known rugby
player. He was arrested on two charges of injuring with intent, committed in August last
year. His case may be heard in November, 1 year after his arrest, but the officer in
charge of the case apparently says it is more likely to be further delayed until September
or October next year, which will be 2 years after his arrest. That is absurd. It is unjust; it
would be comical if it were not so serious.
    As I said at the beginning, other countries have night courts and weekend courts.
Singapore has had night courts in place since 1992 for the express purpose of dealing
with “the high volume of regulatory and traffic offences” that would otherwise block
their courts, thus delaying more serious cases being heard. That is exactly what is going
on here. Many US states use night courts to deal with such issues as landlord and tenant
disputes, small claims, and minor misdemeanours. People do not stop committing
crimes, of course, because it is the weekend.
    More recently, the Minister has introduced—with, I think, widespread support in the
House—on-the-spot protection orders. Persons subjected to those orders have the right
to have their cases heard, as well. Night and weekend courts can play a key role there,
as they do in Alaska, North Carolina, and other places.
12710                                Estimates Debate                           27 Jul 2010

   Bail hearings are another issue. I found myself in the unique position a couple of
weeks ago of agreeing with Mr Peter Williams QC that bail hearings are woefully slow
in this country. Although it is true that less than 5 percent of people remanded in
custody are found not guilty, it is unjust to have that 5 percent on remand for more than
a year awaiting trial. The sooner those arrested have bail hearings, the more justice is
not only done but seen to be done. I have witnessed firsthand, in American states, bail
hearings that are always done the morning after arrest. Officials get through several
hundred hearings in a couple of hours, and there is no reason why we cannot do that too.
If we adopt best practice from other countries—and, indeed, from the private sector, as
the Minister has touched on with the audiovisual link legislation, which again had
widespread support across the House—we can go a long way to unclogging our courts
and fulfilling our constitutional obligations to both victims and accused alike. Thank
   CHESTER BORROWS (National—Whanganui): It is a pleasure to rise and speak
in this estimates debate, and I am looking forward to the work that the Justice and
Electoral Committee will be travelling through in the next 12 months. Some of the
bigger chunks of work have already been outlined by the Minister of Justice. I am
pleased to note that the response of this Minister to questions that are raised in the
public has been to consider those comments and to review the legislation governing
those areas or situations, and then to make a response. It is interesting to note that where
that has happened, there has frequently been a positive response right across the House.
   Although some commentators have talked about some responses as being knee-jerk
or off the cuff, or in response to matters that have been traversed through the courts, I
do not think that one can fairly reflect that. Given, for instance, the Drivers of Crime
conference that was held last year, the response to it, and the way that upcoming
legislation has been responding to the matters that were thrown up, I think one would
have to go quite a long way to find a Minister of Justice who has responded in such a
pre-emptive way. The Search and Surveillance Bill, which is travelling through its
select committee consideration at the moment, is another indication. In response to
some concerns that have been raised through the sector and by the public, that bill has
been put on hold for some time while some investigations have been made in order to
work through some concerns. We will very soon be able to go back to submitters and
ask them to respond again in writing once they have seen the way the Government
wishes to respond to the matters that were raised.
   Of course, the Sale and Supply of Liquor and Liquor Enforcement Bill is currently
before the committee too. It has been put on hold while we have seen the response of
the Law Commission in its report, and then seen the public’s response to that report. We
await eagerly the Government’s response to the points that have been made.
   It is interesting to note that the public have relished the opportunity to have input into
this particular issue. There have been over 3,000 submissions to the Law Commission in
respect of its discussion paper. Members of the Justice and Electoral Committee have to
wonder whether those 3,000 people would not then go on and make submissions to the
select committee. That will be a lot of fun; we look forward to engaging with them.
   The Criminal Procedure (Simplification) Project will be quite unusual in terms of the
way New Zealand has dealt with matters that come before the court, procedural matters,
and the ability to speed up the court process. It will be interesting to see what response
the public has to that project, but, as I understand it, a number of people operating
within the sector consider that the indications that have been given so far are that it will
be quite well received.
   This is a great time for our committee to be working within the justice sector. It is
great to be able to look back over 18 months and look at what has progressed through
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                                12711

the committee—largely with quite a substantial amount of support from parties across
the House. I thank the committee members for their help. I thank the Minister for the
aspirations he has for the justice system within New Zealand in the future. I look
forward to the challenges of the year ahead. Thank you.
   Hon SIMON POWER (Minister of Justice): The Labour Party has kindly offered
me one of its calls to respond to a member, and I gladly accept it. In respect of Mr
Garrett’s queries about extended court hours I have some advice from the officials that
he may find of some interest. I hope he does not mind me referring to it, but it is quite
well put.
   Hon Darren Hughes: In his own hand.
   Hon SIMON POWER: Ha, ha! It is not, actually. The ministry has completed a
pilot on extended court hours last year, and it was a very successful pilot. The next
phase of the pilot is about to get under way in Auckland in 2 months. In reference to
waiting times in both the High Court and the District Court as a result of the new
committal process, the removal of depositions, which we were told would effectively
end the way the criminal justice system operated, full stop, has actually operated
extremely successfully and sped up, to quite a degree, the first part of the pipeline
through the committal process.
   Interestingly, in that legislation—which was introduced by the Chair, in a former
capacity—we inserted a clause to enable counsel to seek the leave of the judge to make
an oral deposition in the way that would have previously occurred. From the numbers I
have to hand, that has occurred in about 3 percent of cases, meaning that it has not
disrupted the way the early parts of those trials are conducted, to the detriment of any of
those who are party to those particular proceedings. The changes to that committal
process, together with the next phase of the extended court hours pilot, should show us
how effective targeted policies can be in speeding up and dealing with some of the
problems the member raised in his earlier contribution.
   Vote agreed to.
Vote State-Owned Enterprises
    MOANA MACKEY (Labour): Labour is taking a call on Vote State-Owned
Enterprises lest the Minister for State Owned Enterprises feel the need to stand up and
give us chapters 4 and 5 of his autobiography, which I am sure he may do anyway.
    It has to be said: I do not think there is any other area of this Government’s plan
where there have been more U-turns, more tyre-kicking, and more running of the flag
up and down the flagpole than in the area of State-owned enterprises.
    We would like to hear from this Minister whether asset sales are part of National’s
long-term plan for this country. Are they part of the long-term plan for this country?
The day after the Budget the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance, Bill
English, floated the idea of the privatisation of Kiwibank—the day after the Budget.
This is the man who wrote the Budget. This is the man who, we would assume, knows a
little bit about what is going on in terms of revenue for the Government’s future plans.
We are expected to believe that the day after the Budget the Minister of Finance
mistakenly floated the idea of the privatisation of Kiwibank. Well, I think New
Zealanders know differently, and they know differently from experience.
    The National Government would desperately love to privatise State-owned
enterprises, but it cannot do that because New Zealanders do not want it to sell our
silver to overseas interests. It has happened before, and we did not become any
wealthier because we had lost control of assets in New Zealand. In fact, the reality was
far from it. But National has had to swallow that dead rat, and as a TV3 poll said, 80
percent of New Zealanders are opposed to asset sales—80 percent. The Minister of
12712                               Estimates Debate                           27 Jul 2010

Energy and Resources based his entire mining policy on a TV3 poll—his entire mining
policy on a TV3 poll. So National knows that 80 percent of New Zealanders are
opposed to asset sales. Interestingly enough, 53 percent of New Zealanders do not
believe the Prime Minister when he says that he will never sell assets. They do not
believe him.
    Hon Darren Hughes: That’s just the back bench.
    MOANA MACKEY: And that is just the back bench of the National Party.
    Hon David Parker: And never in their first term.
    MOANA MACKEY: That is right, I tell Mr Parker, thank you. Fifty-three percent
do not believe that, because they know that National is fundamentally opposed to the
State owning assets. So we would like to hear from the Minister why National has now
backed away from the policy that it has always held, which is privatisation either wholly
or partially of those assets. Is the Minister for State Owned Enterprises admitting that
his party was wrong in the past? Is he now admitting that the privatisation of those
assets in the past did not work and was wrong? No? They rub their chins and do not say
    Hon Darren Hughes: David Carter sold Contact Energy.
    MOANA MACKEY: Well, David Carter did sell Contact Energy. I want to talk a
little bit about Kiwibank, because Kiwibank is an asset that New Zealanders are
extremely proud of. It is an asset that Jim Anderton and the Alliance Party had as a
policy in Labour’s first term in Government. Labour is very proud of the work that
Kiwibank has been doing. New Zealanders do not feel that the Australian-run banks
have been working in their best interests. They know that interest rate cuts have not
been passed on in the way that they have been in Australia. New Zealanders very much
value the work that Kiwibank does, and I believe they would like to see Kiwibank able
to do more in New Zealand and work for New Zealanders. But what did Bill English
say? The Minister of Finance advocated the sale of Kiwibank because, he said, that
would be good for mum and dad investors in New Zealand. Well, I have a newsflash for
Bill English: mums and dads in New Zealand already own Kiwibank—
    Hon Darren Hughes: All of them.
    MOANA MACKEY: —all of them. The sale of Kiwibank would be a prime
example of Tory charity: Tories take something people already own and sell it back to
them. But we know that it will not be sold back to them, because it will be lost overseas,
like so many other assets.
    I imagine there are a number of National Party donors out there who are already
lining themselves up to purchase these very profitable, very well-run State-owned
enterprises. They know that Bill English has got himself into trouble because he has
introduced unaffordable tax cuts and has to pay for them somehow. He does not care
about the long-term interests of the New Zealand economy; he has no plan for the long-
term interests of New Zealand’s economy. He just needs to get himself out of a hole,
because he has introduced tax cuts 25 percent of which have gone to the top-earning 5
percent of New Zealanders—$4 billion to the top-earning 5 percent of New
Zealanders—and he has to pay for those tax cuts. Hocking off New Zealand’s family
silver, in the form of State-owned enterprises, would be a very easy, short-term way of
doing that.
    Of course, long term it would do nothing for the New Zealand economy; long term it
would be detrimental. In the part of the country I live in we suffered enormously
because of the earlier loss of our rail line. We are desperately trying to keep it open, but
the National Government wants to turn it into a cycleway! Clearly, none of those
members have ever been to that part of the country and seen it, because it would
probably be the most treacherous cycleway—over the Mōhaka Viaduct—that there is
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                                 12713

anywhere. It would be true adventure tourism. We sincerely hope the Government will
keep that rail line open, because we fought long and hard to get it back.
   The previous Labour Government did that. It invested money into getting rail up to
speed. We want to see more traffic on that rail line and off our roads. We would not
have had to do that, of course, if it had not been hocked off at bargain basement prices
in the first place, but that was the position that we ended up in. We can look at the
example of Air New Zealand, and of many of our State-owned enterprises—the list
goes on and on.
   New Zealanders want to know, and the Opposition wants to know, what the
Government’s plan is for State-owned enterprises, and what role the Government sees
them playing over the next financial year and the years beyond that. Because so far, as I
said before, all we have seen are flip-flops and U-turns, and all we have heard are grand
statements and then hurried back-downs as the public has its say on how it feels about
the sale of State assets. The Prime Minister, John Key, is on record many, many times
saying that his Government will never ever sell State-owned enterprises or State
assets—never ever. To me, “never ever” means that at no point while John Key is leader
of the National Party will the sale of State assets ever be considered. But then he said
that it just meant that the National Government would not sell them in its first term.
That raises the question for the Minister for State Owned Enterprises of which one of
those two statements is right, because both of them cannot be correct. Will National
never ever sell State assets, or will it just not sell them in its first term? The Minister
and the Prime Minister like to say that they will go into an election campaign with a
mandate on this issue. Well, they did not go into an election campaign with a mandate
on raising GST.
   Chris Tremain: No, no, no. We will go into an election campaign asking voters to
vote on it, or not—
   MOANA MACKEY: Right. I ask Mr Tremain whether he—
   Chris Tremain: —to get a mandate from the electorate.
   MOANA MACKEY: OK. Then I ask Mr Tremain whether National told voters
about its plan to raise GST. Oh no! That is exactly right, and this is why the
Government cannot be trusted. It is all very well to talk about having a mandate and
putting it to voters at an election—in fact, that is what should happen—but this
Government does not have a record of doing that. It never went to the public about
mining in national parks—never—but it was talking to the mining companies about it. It
never went to the public about increasing GST, yet come 1 October we will have an
increase in GST.
   This Prime Minister said that National would make sure it told New Zealanders
during an election campaign if it was going to sell State assets, so that they would have
the opportunity to vote on that issue. If they feel strongly about it, they could vote
against National; if they did not feel strongly about it, they could vote on other issues.
But the Government has no credibility, because it has not done that on other key
policies that are of extreme importance to New Zealanders, such as the protection of our
environment, and how they pay their family bills every single week.
   I ask the Minister to stand up again and tell us which one of the Prime Minister’s
statements are correct—that National will never ever sell State assets, or that it just will
not do that in its first term. I ask him to give us a guarantee that if part of National’s
long-term plan for New Zealand is to sell State assets, it will admit to it during an
election campaign. I also ask that National tells us who has been donating to it in that
election campaign, and does not funnel donations through a trust so that New
Zealanders cannot see who is funding National. Those questions are important when it
comes to this debate on State-owned enterprises, because New Zealanders have been
12714                               Estimates Debate                           27 Jul 2010

here before, and it was a disaster. The Labour Government inherited an incredible
infrastructure deficit, which took us 9 years—
   Chris Tremain: And who sold the most State-owned enterprises? You guys did.
   MOANA MACKEY: Yes, me—right! I tell Mr Tremain I was at primary school
during the fourth Labour Government.
   Chris Tremain: The Labour Party—oh, don’t take any account of that.
   MOANA MACKEY: So Mr Tremain thinks that the 1990s National Government
did nothing to sell assets. Mr Tremain might want to go out and explain to his
constituents why their electricity costs so much.
   Chris Tremain: Who sold the BNZ? Oh, the Labour Party.
   MOANA MACKEY: Chris Tremain does not even know what he is talking about.
He just said that Labour sold BNZ. It was actually the National Government that sold
BNZ, I tell Mr Tremain. He might want to withdraw that statement, because it is not
correct. But the fact is that during the 9 years of the previous Labour Government we
had to address an enormous infrastructure deficit—an enormous infrastructure deficit. It
cost us billions of dollars—billions of dollars—but we did it because it was the right
thing to do for New Zealand’s economy.
   Vote agreed to.
Vote Health
   Hon RUTH DYSON (Labour—Port Hills): I am grateful for the opportunity to
speak on the Vote Health estimates this evening. We have heard from the Minister of
Health a lot of figures being bandied about, but now is the time for this Parliament and
the public to hear the true story about what the Budgets of last year and this year mean
for front-line health services in our country. The truth is that they mean just one thing,
and that is cuts to front-line health services.
   The Minister admitted today, having received the question, that he was not
comfortable with the numerous announcements of health cuts in the last 20 months, and
there have been numerous front-line health service cuts. That is in direct contradiction
to what the Minister, when he was in Opposition, and his colleagues said up and down
the country. They went to meeting after meeting and said: “We’ll put more money into
health. We’ll move services from the back room to the front line. There will be no cuts
to front-line health services.” Tony Ryall is a Tui billboard, because whenever the
Minister says there will be no cuts, just changes, to front-line health services, the whole
country, including his caucus colleagues, say “Yeah right!”. We know that because of
the Minister’s decisions and his budget cuts, front-line health services are being cut all
around the country. The truth is that the component of the Vote Health budget that gets
to district health boards is where the rubber meets the road. That is where the crunch
decisions are being made.
   If we look at last year’s health budget, and at health inflation, population growth, and
the forthcoming increase in GST, we see that we are left with a $300 million hole in the
health budget. That is how much the health budget is short of in order for it to stay still.
That is what the Minister has given the country of New Zealand. Front-line district
health board services will get a 3.5 percent increase, on average. If we look at those
factors—population growth, health, and inflation—and at other factors that we know are
coming down the track, such as wage increases and a GST increase that is not very far
away, we have to ask what it all means. Six percent inflation and a 3.5 percent increase
for district health boards means that there will be no alternative but to cut further health
services. There will be more health cuts as a result of the decisions that Tony Ryall and
his Cabinet colleagues made in the Budget.
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                                12715

    According to the Budget documents themselves, public health will be cut. This
Budget, delivered by Tony Ryall for health, means that spending on public health will
be cut by $68 million over 4 years, spending on mental health will be cut by $12 million
over 4 years, and the Primary Health Care Strategy money will be cut by $58 million
over 4 years.
    Sandra Goudie: They never do their homework.
    Hon RUTH DYSON: When the Minister in the chair, Tony Ryall, resorts to Sandra
Goudie as the cheerleader it is time to call for reinforcements. He has Dr Blue giving his
urgent messages to Michael Woodhouse. Mr Ryall says, via Dr Blue, his messenger:
“Make sure you talk about this, Mr Woodhouse.” Then he gets Sandra Goudie to be his
cheerleader—desperate times.
    Hon Darren Hughes: It used to be Jonathan Coleman.
    Hon RUTH DYSON: It was Jonathan Coleman, but the Minister has given up
asking him because he made such an absolute mess of things.
    We heard in the House today the response to my request, under the Official
Information Act, about mental health funding. We know that at Capital and Coast
District Health Board this year the Budget has cut mental health funding by $5 million.
The Minister describes that as low-value spending, when he is not brushing it aside as
being changes, not cuts.
    The older people in the electorate that Bill English apparently lives in, Southland—
    Hon Darren Hughes: Wellington Central?
    Hon RUTH DYSON: No, not Wellington Central. He apparently lives in Dipton.
    In Southland, and in Invercargill, where the Minister’s colleague Eric Roy currently
is the member, home support has been cut for thousands of older people. According to
the Minister it was low-value spending. It is not just the hours that individuals had been
getting that have been cut; a whole service has been exited. In Otago and Southland,
where older people used to get laundry, house cleaning, and meal preparation done, the
district health board in the area that is Michael Woodhouse’s hometown—and I imagine
he will take a call later in this debate, unless he has been told by the Minister not to do
so—has said to anyone who had their laundry done, their house cleaned, or meals
prepared that “We don’t do that any more.” The district health board has not just cut
their hours; it has exited the entire service. What can be more front line than cooking
someone’s meal and doing his or her laundry? That is the cut that has occurred in Otago
and Southland. It is not just a cut in hours; it is a complete exiting of the service.
    No amount of the Minister saying that those were changes, not cuts, will change the
fact that many people’s lives have been dramatically altered and many older people are
now living lonely and in fear, often without the tiny bit of support that enabled them to
live in their own home with a quality of life and dignity—
    Michael Woodhouse: Here comes a story.
    Hon David Carter: No story!
    Hon RUTH DYSON: Michael Woodhouse and David Carter can laugh, but it is not
funny when people in their 80s have no support funded by the health system.
    I will give the Committee of the whole House another example of what cuts in health
services have meant. I was very disappointed with the Minister last Thursday and again
today, because he is not on top of his portfolio enough to follow pleas for help that
come via family members, sometimes reported in the newspaper and sometimes directly
to the Minister himself. The Minister should go through the basic standard exercise of
checking the newspapers and his correspondence before he comes to the House. He
should check his phone records and see what family members have contacted his office
for help. He has given a commitment to help those families, but no help has eventuated.
12716                                 Estimates Debate                            27 Jul 2010

   There is one case that I want to repeat a plea for help with. My understanding is that
as of today—5 days since I raised it in the House—the Minister has not done a single
thing to help. I refer to the tragic incident of a 69-year-old man who has Parkinson’s
disease and mild dementia who has been put into Rimutaka Prison because he had
nowhere else to go. The lawyer for the man contacted me today and said that the
Minister assured the House last Thursday that something would be done, but as of today
when the lawyer contacted me, nothing had been done.
   Hon Tony Ryall: Read your mail.
   Hon RUTH DYSON: I hope that the Minister has done something. I hope that that
man is out of Rimutaka Prison and is in a secure and supported environment in the
community. If he is not in a secure, supported environment and faces a similar charge
again under the justice system, he unfortunately will be liable to the “three strikes”
legislation, which means that he would be indefinitely detained in prison for a very,
very long time.
   Hon Tony Ryall: I’ve written to you about this today. Don’t go there. You won’t say
this tomorrow.
   Hon RUTH DYSON: The Minister is burbling on, but not once during the entire
course of question time did he say that anything had been done for that man. He denied
knowledge of that situation in the same way that today he denied knowledge of another
situation where a person who deserves support to live safely in his or her own home and
community is being denied it. That is not a result of any failing of a doctor, a nurse, or
any other professional. It is not a failing of a district health board. It is the direct result
of the cuts in the health budget that we are debating in the estimates tonight. They are
cuts that the Minister calls changes; cuts that we know are direct cuts to front-line health
services—something that during the election campaign in 2008 the Minister said would
not happen.
   How does that make National members feel? They paraded up and down the country
repeating the mantra: “We will move resources from the back room to the front line.
There will be no cuts to front-line health services.”
   Nicky Wagner: This is the biggest health budget ever.
   Hon RUTH DYSON: How does Nicky Wagner feel when people from Christchurch
ring her up and say: “We have had all our home support cut.”? Those are cuts, not
   Hon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health): I have to say that so much progress is
being made in health that I am looking forward to the contribution being made.
   I will talk about the member who has just spoken, Ruth Dyson. One of the things I
can say about that member is that day after day she asks a question in the House and
never gets any coverage for it. That is because of this simple fact: the member distorts,
and never actually tells the full facts of, a story. For example, just now she said that on
Thursday I denied knowing something. Actually, on Thursday I was in Auckland
opening a new health centre with other people. I was not in Parliament.
   Hon Ruth Dyson: The Minister who answered was answering on your behalf.
   Hon TONY RYALL: Oh, it was the Minister in my place. You see, this is just
another little story. The member says one thing and means another.
   Let us just go through what Ruth Dyson says. What about this one? Do members
remember the press release headed “Starvation Imminent …”? I ask whether members
remember this question from a couple of weeks ago. “Starvation Imminent …” was the
headline of the press release. Ruth Dyson said that people in the Prime Minister’s
electorate were having their Meals on Wheels ripped from them and that they would
have imminent starvation. What were the facts? Seven people were moving from one
provider to the next. Starvation imminent!
27 Jul 2010                        Estimates Debate                               12717

    What about this one? I ask whether members remember this one. Apparently I was
going to shut down 1,000 rest home beds in Dunedin. Do members remember that?
There are only 1,200 beds in total, but I was going to cut 1,000! She did not cover that
    Hon Ruth Dyson: Bed nights—tell the truth.
    Hon TONY RYALL: We hear “tell the truth” from her!
    Hon Ruth Dyson: Bed nights.
    Hon TONY RYALL: It is bed nights now. Oh!
    Hon Ruth Dyson: That’s what the press release said.
    Hon TONY RYALL: So the press release said we are cutting 1,000 beds, and the
question in the House said we are cutting 1,000 beds, but it was bed nights. That is just
absolutely untrue.
    What about this one? What about the press statement from Ruth Dyson stating that
Waikato Hospital has a freeze on recruitment and on employing doctors and nurses?
Just as Waikato Hospital was sending out 46 job offers, Ruth Dyson said that there was
a freeze on recruitment there. I can tell members that there are more doctors—
    Hon Ruth Dyson: Waikato District Health Board said that.
    Hon TONY RYALL: It did not say that. It probably said that it had turned off the
light switches, and the member interpreted that to mean that it had turned off
recruitment. That is how she works.
    It has been interesting today that Ruth Dyson has finally announced what the Labour
Opposition’s one policy in health is.
    Hon Member: What is it?
    Hon TONY RYALL: It is another $300 million. She promised tonight that another
$300 million will fix everything. That is from the party that doubled the health budget
when it was in Government and gave people fewer operations. Labour doubled the
health budget and rheumatic fever has gone up. It doubled the health budget and
diabetes has gone up. It doubled the health budget and everything has gone wrong. It
doubled the health budget and fewer people are getting operations. It doubled the health
budget and there are fewer general practitioners. Now Labour says that the answer is
another $300 million. That is Labour’s promise. Its promise is another $300 million in
health. It did not work in the past, and it will not work again.
    This Government has put a significant investment into health. It is made hard by the
fact that under Labour’s watch, $17 million was defrauded from the Otago District
Health Board when one of Labour’s mates was the chairman of that board—$17 million
was defrauded. As a result of that, the previous Labour Government allowed the assets
of the Otago District Health Board to become so run down that it refused to put extra
money into the Otago District Health Board to fix its hospitals.
    What have I done about it? With the great lobbying and support of Michael
Woodhouse, we have another $25 million for a major capital upgrade at Dunedin
Hospital. We have put millions of dollars into a new mental health unit in Whangarei.
We have put tens of millions of dollars into a new emergency department and 50 extra
beds at North Shore Hospital, and another 25 were opened last week. That party in
Government and its flunky Mrs McKelvie—who was chair of the Waitematā District
Health Board at the time, and who is also a close personal friend of the previous Prime
Minister, Helen Clark, and Ruth Dyson—refused to deal with the emergency
department at North Shore.
    We have put millions of dollars into building extra buildings at Otago and Counties-
Manukau. We have put tens of millions of dollars into the new emergency department
and umpteen extra beds at Waikato. We are putting in a new wing, whose construction
is under way, at Tauranga Hospital.
12718                              Estimates Debate                          27 Jul 2010

   We are investing heavily in the public health service. Since we came into office, we
have put an extra $1.3 billion—
   Hon Darren Hughes: Why are old people losing services?
   Hon TONY RYALL: —into health. What is more, as at last year, more money was
put into home support for old people, and more money will be put in next year.
   Labour hates that it doubled the budget yet it lost the public’s confidence in the
health service. Do members remember when that party opposite said day after day that
there was no workforce crisis in health?
   Hon Darren Hughes: We never said that.
   Hon TONY RYALL: Oh, did members hear that? The member says that Labour
never said that there was no workforce crisis in health. What has National done about it?
We have 1,400 of our smartest doctors, nurses, and midwives on a voluntary bonding
scheme. We have said to them that if they stay in the country for between 3 and 5 years,
they can write off their student loan. We have 1,400 young people who have put up
their hand to do that, and we are having significant gains there.
   What is more, we have much faster cancer treatment in New Zealand now than we
had under the previous Government. Do members remember when Ruth Dyson used to
defend sending women to Australia because they had to wait 14 weeks for cancer
radiation treatment? She said that it was fine for people to wait 14 weeks for cancer
treatment. That is what that member’s Government—
   Hon Ruth Dyson: What a liar.
   Hon TONY RYALL: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. That member has
made unparliamentary comments.
   The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker): The member has said that
unparliamentary comments are being made. I have heard them, and they will stop.
   Hon TONY RYALL: Those comments are unparliamentary, especially when we
consider how that member misrepresents every day.
   We have put a huge amount of money—$1.3 billion—into health. As a result of that
money we now have faster cancer treatment. Cancer treatment waiting times are coming
down within 6 weeks. In January 2009 about 8 or 9 percent of New Zealand cancer
patients were waiting longer than 6 weeks for treatment. That figure is now down to 1
   When we came into office, the average increase in elective surgery was 2,000
operations a year, and most of that increase happened in the last year or so of the
previous Government. That figure is up by 13,000 in our first year. When we came into
office, 80 percent of the people coming into an emergency department might have been
treated and through the emergency department in 6 hours. We are now up to almost 90
percent of patients being treated through emergency departments in that time.
Significant investments are going into health.
   In mental health, $40 million is being invested in those services, and district health
boards will be allocating an extra $174 million for mental health over the next 4 years.
We will see $24 million of new spending on a 4-year pilot for the national bowel cancer
screening programme. We remember when Labour talked about it, announced it, and
did nothing for it. Those members talked about it, announced it, said that it would
happen by Christmas, and did nothing about it.
   We have also put a large amount of extra money into medical training. We will train
an extra 200 medical students over the next few years. We have funded an extra 80
medical student places; that is happening already. We have put a huge investment into
medicines. An extra $60 million is going into Pharmac, with huge numbers of New
Zealanders benefiting.
27 Jul 2010                          Estimates Debate                                 12719

    We have also dealt with the cardiac surgery waiting list. Do members remember that
when Ruth Dyson was in Cabinet there was a report that people had died on the
Wellington Hospital waiting list because of the way that the previous Government
operated the cardiac surgery waiting list? Well, we have put a huge amount of money
into dealing with the cardiac waiting list, and we have those waiting lists lower than
they have ever been before. We have made some very, very significant investments.
    Ruth Dyson focuses every day in the House on some small, little change affecting a
few people around the country, and misrepresents the facts. Do members remember the
heading, “Starvation imminent …”? Do members remember the press release and the
question in the House that referred to imminent starvation? What was it? Eight people
were moving from one Meals on Wheels provider to another, and that was imminent
starvation! Do members remember the 1,000 rest home beds being cut from the Otago
District Health Board?
    Chris Auchinvole: How many were there all together?
    Hon TONY RYALL: There are only 1,200 all together. Do members remember the
freeze on staff at Waikato Hospital as they were sending out 46 recruitment letters?
    Hon DARREN HUGHES (Labour): I seek leave to table a press release headed
“Starvation Imminent in Prime Minister’s Electorate”, which is actually a press release
from Grey Power, not from the Hon Ruth Dyson. Tony Ryall has just misled the
Committee by telling us it was a press release from that member. I seek leave to table
that statement so that people can be clear just how misleading the member was when
making those claims.
    The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker): The Speaker has ruled previously that
press releases that are generally available are not to be tabled.
    Hon DARREN HUGHES (Labour): I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
    The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker): When points of order are being taken,
the House will be in silence. That goes for both sides.
    Hon DARREN HUGHES: When things are not readily available to members, they
will often make mistakes and not refer to the correct document. Clearly, this
information is not readily available to the Minister because he has ascribed the
authorship of it to the completely wrong person. I am seeking leave to table a press
release from a non-governmental organisation, which is not tabled as part of the general
business of the House at the beginning of each sitting day, and to make it available so
that members are absolutely clear that the basis of the two contributions from the
Minister was a press release by a different person.
    The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker): We can waste some time on this. I will
put the question. But I say to the member to not raise it again; this is the last time. Leave
is sought to table the press release. Is there any objection? There is objection.
    NICKY WAGNER (National): This Government is committed to better, sooner,
and more convenient health care. That is why Vote Health 2010-11 is the second-largest
vote in the Budget, with appropriations sought totalling just over $13.574 billion. I say
that again—$13.574 billion. All district health boards are receiving an increase in
funding and front-line services have been boosted. Front-line services are improving
across the country. We are also getting better value for money. Under Labour, we saw
money being thrown at health problems, but with very poor results. The health budget
skyrocketed, but health outcomes went nowhere. Our Government believes that it is
possible to manage only what is measured. Therefore, based on public priority, the
Government has introduced six key health targets for district health boards. Just as
important, all district health boards are required to report to the public quarterly on these
health targets.
12720                               Estimates Debate                          27 Jul 2010

   There is nothing like transparency and accountability to make sure we get the best
possible results and good value for money. Members may have seen the quarterly
district health board reports in their local newspapers. They look like the one I am
holding up. There have been three quarterly reports so far, so the public can now assess
how their district health board is performing in the six key goals. Like everyone, I
always want to focus on my home town, which is Christchurch. Along with many
others, I have been following closely what the Canterbury District Health Board has
been doing. I can see its strengths, I can see where it is improving, and I can see its
weaknesses. But now I, and all other citizens of Christchurch and Canterbury, know
how our district health board is performing in comparison to others.
   I am particularly interested in immunisation because it can protect our children,
prevent a number of diseases, and is a very cost-effective health intervention.
Immunisation provides not only individual protection from some diseases but also
population-wide protection by reducing the incidence of diseases and preventing them
from spreading to vulnerable people. Some of these population-wide benefits arise only
with high immunisation rates, depending on the infectiousness of the disease and the
effectiveness of the vaccine. Under Labour, New Zealand’s immunisation rates were
low by international standards and were not sufficient to prevent or reduce the impact of
vaccine-preventable diseases, such as measles and pertussis, which is whooping cough.
This Government has made immunisation one of the six main health targets and is
committed to a 3-year improvement programme, with a national goal of 95 percent of
children fully immunised at 2 years of age. The target is staged, beginning with 85
percent of 2-year-olds being immunised by July 2010, 90 percent by July 2011, and 95
percent by July 2012.
   There has been good progress against these targets since they were introduced. We
have substantially beaten the 85 percent target, which was due at the end of last month.
Eighty-seven percent of 2-year-olds have been immunised. It is a vast improvement on
the mere 80 percent who were immunised 2 years ago. In fact, it is a fantastic result. It
is better for kids, better for families, and better for our health system. We expect, with
the added focus of collating statistics by district health boards every quarter, that there
will be a continued improvement and we will smash those targets. I can track these
results locally by following the Canterbury District Health Board report. At the end of
2009 Canterbury had immunised 84 percent of its 2-year-olds. By March it was 86
percent, which is already above the target, and at the end of June it was 89 percent. I
congratulate the Canterbury District Health Board on a very fine effort in surpassing the
target. This Government is committed to better, sooner, and more convenient health
care. We are investing heavily in the sector.
   Hon LUAMANUVAO WINNIE LABAN (Labour—Mana): Kia ora, Mr Assistant
Speaker. Kia ora mai anō tātou katoa. E taku whānau, e ngā iwi, e ngā rangatira, tēnā
koutou katoa. Kia ora te Rōpu Reipa. Aroha te Rōpū Reipa toa. He tangata, he tangata,
he tangata.
   [Greetings to you, Mr Assistant Speaker, and to all of us, as well. To my family,
people, and chiefs, greetings to you all. My greetings and sympathy to the warrior-like
Labour Party.]
   Talofa lava and warm Pacific greetings. I want to put substance to matters of
accountability, transparency, value for money, and value for people. Due to the 2010
Budget, district health boards will now no longer have enough funds to continue
services at their current level. Even front-line services, which have supposedly been
given a 3.5 percent increase, will be cut after the effects of inflation and wage increases
are taken into account. The evidence of this is clear, from right around the country.
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                                12721

Morale is low in the health sector, and people are expected to put a positive spin on
what is happening.
   As we have seen in the Budget, $186 million over 4 years has been cut from what the
Government calls lower priority spending. This includes public health, mental health,
and the Primary Health Care Strategy. The elderly are going without home support,
because the Government regards them as being a lower priority for spending. These
figures represent real people who are missing out on services. More than 80 front-line
services have been cut in the last 18 months in nearly every region of New Zealand.
Those services range from massive reductions in home-based support for the elderly,
plans to cut beds in community hospitals that have just been opened, through to a
decision to turn people away from emergency departments.
   Sadly, the effects of the cuts are already being felt very strongly, and particularly in
the area of aged care. I am hearing time and time again about problems relating to the
care of the elderly, aged care, right around the country. Most of the comments that I
hear are related to certain main themes: a lack of qualified staff, especially registered
nurses, and a shortage of overall staff. What staff there are are underpaid and
undertrained, especially health care assistants and other caregivers. This leads to
inadequate care, both in rest homes and within the home-based sector. Home help has
been cut after assessments made over the phone. I have heard many stories of elderly
people finding medical care to be very elusive, such as spending hours waiting for an
appointment at accident and emergency centres, only to be sent back to their general
   Horror stories about the state of aged care in our country abound in the media. There
is huge concern about the state of home care, in particular. We all hear hugely
concerning stories about cuts in this area. It means that a lot of our elderly are anxious
and worried, and they feel unwell. For instance, I heard the story of a lady who had only
half an hour of care support a week. The assessor declined her specific request to be
assessed in person, and she was told by the caregiver that she would no longer come
because of the distance to her house. Another elderly woman who suffers from a spinal
injury had 1 hour of home help per week. After assessment, she negotiated a drop to just
1 hour per fortnight, and since then her home help has been cut entirely. She cannot
manage her own cleaning and day-to-day tasks. Stories like those have led Grey Power
in Southland to lodge a case with the Human Rights Commission about cuts to home
help in Southland, as reported by the Southland Times today. It comes after a huge
number of stories about how the cuts are impacting on our elderly right around our
   It is hugely unfair to deprive the elderly of such basic care. But I also ask how cost-
effective it is. Without access to home support, many elderly will have to seek out
residential care, which costs far more and takes them out of their own homes, often
forcing them to move many miles away. I ask how much more front-line we can get
than home help for our elderly. This Government talks a lot about shifting resources to
front-line staff, yet a service that provides in-home help for our most vulnerable people,
our elders, is the first to be gutted. I ask how the Minister of Health can be comfortable,
when the results of the cuts he is imposing so obviously have such damaging effects on
our elderly.
   Vote agreed to.
12722                               Estimates Debate                           27 Jul 2010

Vote State Services agreed to.
Vote ACC agreed to.
Vote Climate Change agreed to.
Vote Environment
    CHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour): It seems that National has no problem with
acknowledging that the environment is an important economic issue when it is
presented with an opportunity to dig some of it up, send it offshore, and burn it. It is
odd, then, that when it is pointed out to National members that our carefully balanced
natural environment is the very thing on which our future economic success depends,
they are a lot less willing to agree. It is fair to assume that their reluctance to see this
simple truth explains many of the damaging cuts that have been made to Vote
Environment and Vote Conservation while this Government has held office. These cuts
and this Government’s neglect of the most important part of our economy are what I
want to address my remarks to this evening.
    If this Budget reveals one thing about this Government’s plan for the environment, it
is that there is none, except for the intention to intensify mining and dairying, which
will work to the detriment of our economy in the long run, rather than providing the
many benefits that would have been gained from investments in cleantech, for example,
which, so far, have been completely ignored. In respect of mining, I think it is very
important that we have this on record: this Government has no regard for the natural
environment or for the clean, green image that our country relies on. It has no respect
for the importance of preserving our national parks, and, given the chance, it will have
little regard for public opinion and for the fact that many New Zealanders absolutely
cherish our natural assets.
    Let us make it clear: the Government’s mining backdown was just like a dog running
away, with its tail between its legs. It was a late attempt to cover for having made itself
look bad. This backdown changes neither the Government’s true intention nor its
disregard for the land protected under schedule 4 of the Crown Minerals Act. At another
point in time, the Government’s move might have been different. Given the chance, it is
clear from the rhetoric we have heard over the past months that this Government will
mine our most precious conservation estate, and this is something New Zealanders
should, and will, remember at the next election.
    If National truly cared about the environment, it would have invested in it in this
Budget, but it did not. The Government has failed even to compensate for the degrading
cuts made in the first Budget of its term in office. There has been no attempt to correct
the slashing of funds to great programmes like Enviroschools. Thank goodness so many
schools have just got on with it and found the money in their existing budgets, even
though they have had to scrimp and save out of other areas in order to continue those
    There has been no attempt to remedy the fact that the Government cut all initiatives
to promote a carbon-neutral Public Service. Never mind that the public sector accounts
for a whole third of our economic activity. The Government knows that it is ignoring
the need to invest in sustainability, to the extent that it has tried to mislead people into
thinking that it has invested. For instance, it has tried to portray an extra $500 million
appropriated to the emissions trading scheme as an extra investment, when in reality it
just represents a change in the uptake in credits for forestry. Thank goodness there is
that uptake, but at the very least the Minister in the chair, the Minister for the
Environment, should represent it factually and honestly, not misleadingly, in the Budget
documents. It is this deliberate deception that is most worrying. It shows that National
27 Jul 2010                          Estimates Debate                                  12723

knows it should be investing in sustainability and in our future, but it chooses not to; it
just tries to fool people into thinking that it is.
    This Government does not seem to understand the urgency of building a sustainable
economy, as it is choosing inaction over action in so many areas. For example, we have
seen the Government stall in areas such as air quality and freshwater management,
under the guise of not rushing into decisions, but in reality it is just giving in to pressure
from its industry allies, who do not want to pay their fair share for the pollution they
cause. For example, industry has been given an extra 5 years to prepare for the new air
quality standards, the introduction of which the Minister has pushed back all the way to
2018. Similarly, the Government’s changes to the Resource Management Act will make
it a lot easier to move through the consents process, but they will fail to protect the
environment in any way—again just helping National’s allies abuse our environment
without having to pay for the abuse.
    But without question, the most damaging and most unfair thing this Government has
done in the area of the environment is its changes to the emissions trading scheme. It is
just like the areas that I mentioned before. This is a case of National helping out its
allies by subsidising their pollution, rather than doing what is right and fair and making
them pay for what they emit. As if this were not bad enough, the people who pay the
price for it are ordinary Kiwis, through increased power prices, along with other policies
like the rise in GST.
    Hon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for the Environment): It is a delight to be before
the Committee as part of a blue-green Government that is making such strong progress
on some of the key environmental issues facing the nation. Let us work through each of
the big environmental issues and talk about the progress that we are making.
    Let us start with climate change. For all of the 20 years that I have been in
Parliament, we have debated the difficult challenge of putting a price on carbon
emissions. Labour talked about it for 9 years, and what happened? We had the worst
increase in emissions of any country. We trebled the amount of electricity that we
produced from burning coal. We had the worst period of deforestation in any period
since the Great Depression. In every single one of those areas the National Government
has made progress.
    Hon Darren Hughes: Why was that?
    Hon Dr NICK SMITH: My challenge to Mr Hughes is simply this: Labour cannot
sing from two song sheets. In the House only today Annette King challenged the Prime
Minister about the cost of the emissions trading scheme to consumers, while Charles
Chauvel has just told the Committee that Labour wants to put up the price even more
for consumers and businesses. I say to Labour members that they cannot have their cake
and eat it too. They should be honest and upfront about their policy. The reality is that
this blue-green approach that the Government is taking to climate change and other
areas is the right approach for this country of ours.
    The really important second issue is water policy. This country has an enormous
challenge in this area. I am sure the members of the Government will remember the
2003 Water Programme of Action. I challenge Charles Chauvel over how many national
policy statements the previous Labour Government delivered on water in its 9 years.
Zip. How many national environment standards on water did it deliver in 9 years? Zip.
In fact, it was so embarrassing that my own politically neutral Chief Executive of the
Ministry for the Environment, when working for the previous Government, described it
as the programme of inaction.
    The actions we have seen from this Government to deal with those water challenges
include, firstly, that we will not manage water unless we measure it. My colleague
David Carter and I have brought in a very basic important measure of water, and that is
12724                               Estimates Debate                          27 Jul 2010

to require metering. We cannot manage what we do not measure. We will move from 35
percent of water being metered to 98 percent in a period of just 5 years. It is a very
important step for water management.
   Secondly, we have had the courage to make the difficult decision on the water
challenge in Canterbury. The truth is that the previous Government sat on its hands and
did nothing about the problems with Environment Canterbury. Those commissioners are
doing a sterling job of making real progress in the region of New Zealand where there
are big water challenges.
   Let us talk about money, because this is the estimates debate. I will give members
some figures. In the last 5 years of the previous Labour Government, how much did it
spend on water-quality initiatives? The answer is $14 million. In terms of the first 5
years of the National Government’s commitment on water quality, the Budget—and,
remember, we are dealing with the biggest downturn and the tightest budgetary process
New Zealand has faced—has provided not $14 million but $94 million. We are
spending $94 million on dealing with water-quality issues in the Waikato, Lake
Rotorua, Lake Rotoiti, and Lake Taupō. I tell members opposite to not stand up in this
Chamber and say that members of this Government do not value water quality, when in
the tightest economic period since the Great Depression we have increased fivefold the
amount we are spending on that important area of work.
   CHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour): It is rich to be lectured by that Minister on
issues like making progress on climate change. The Committee might like to remember
some of the salient history, in this regard. The Hon Dr Nick Smith, the Minister in the
chair, is the one who, earlier in the last term when Labour was in Government,
vigorously opposed the idea of putting any sort of economic instrument in place to price
carbon. He was totally against the carbon tax. Finally, when we got to a position where
we were going to introduce an emissions trading scheme as the economic instrument to
price carbon, what did that person do?
   Hon Dr Nick Smith: We voted for the first reading.
   CHARLES CHAUVEL: That is right; he voted for the first reading. Then he came
along to the select committee and behaved about as obstructively as anybody in his
position possibly could, and complained about the process ad infinitum. He was
responsible, as part of his wonderful blue-green agenda, for producing a waffly six-
point document that gave National the intellectual respectability—or so National
members thought—to vote against the emissions trading scheme at its second and third
readings, and then what happened? We lost a year while the Minister wasted time on the
select committee process and on consultation that was hardly conducted in good faith.
Negotiations were also clearly conducted in bad faith, because that Minister is just not
capable of any other action. That is his record on trying to progress climate change in a
bipartisan fashion. No one on this side of the Chamber will ever accept a lecture from
Dr Smith on the best way in which to achieve enduring public policy in this area.
   If Labour were in Government, we would be implementing an emissions trading
scheme that actually reduced emissions, rather than this Mickey Mouse fig leaf we have
in place at the moment, which all the experts say will simply lead to a rise in emissions.
Our international negotiators cannot say how New Zealand will get domestic emissions
down when they are put on the spot at international conferences, because there is no
plan. It is just a question of hoping that people will say: “Oh, New Zealand’s got an
emissions trading scheme.”, and that that will do the trick. But we know, because the
experts tell us, that that simply is not the case.
   Not only would Labour put in place an emissions trading scheme—an economic
instrument that would price carbon use at the margin—but we would make sure that
those households that were affected by the implementation of the scheme received some
27 Jul 2010                        Estimates Debate                               12725

decent transitional assistance. Those ordinary Kiwis who are affected by price changes
because of the implementation of the scheme would get a bit of a hand, because there
would be the auctioning of permits under our scheme. Through the auctioning of
permits revenue would be available, not only for transitional assistance but also to make
the change to a lower-pollution economy. We all know we need to do it. By delaying
the evil day on which we start to put in place proper, complementary measures to assist
the economy to make that measure, all that the Minister is doing is to load future prices
on future generations. That is just what the National Party does across multiple areas of
public policy, superannuation—you name it. It is putting it on the never-never so that
the next generation will have to pay the bill, and we get tax cuts now in an attempt to
buy an election in a year’s time. People will see through that.
   There is a need to invest heavily in energy efficiency now. Schemes like
Enviroschools should be restored. We should be developing our public transport rather
than just building more and more roads. It is a real shame that this Government has not
only implemented bad policy but has gone backwards on making the progress that
Labour made, like the emissions trading scheme, and like the meaningful strategy that
was in place to get 90 percent of our energy generation in the electricity sector coming
from renewable sources. There was a real plan of action behind that strategy.
   The Minister gestures from the chair, but he knows—and he should be ashamed of
himself—that he has put out misleading advertising to the public. He knows that fossil
fuel plants were built between 2000 and 2008 because of the effect of the Bradford
reforms. Decisions to build those sorts of assets are long-term ones. The Minister
laughs, but he has not sat on an energy company board. He does not know the sort of
planning that goes into them; I do. The fact is that we saw the hangover from those ill-
advised reforms all through that period of time. We are now seeing, and the Minister is
reaping the benefits of, the careful moves that Labour made to ensure that we did have
more sustainable generation.
   CHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National—West Coast - Tasman): In listening to the
speeches that are being made, I take comfort, as will the public, in reading the
recommendation of the Local Government and Environment Committee on the
estimates for Vote Environment. The committee’s report states: “The Local
Government and Environment Committee recommends that the appropriations for the
year ending 30 June 2011 for Vote Environment, administered by the Ministry for the
Environment as set out in Parliamentary Paper B.5, be accepted.” Therefore, what we
are hearing from the other side is well-intentioned rhetoric, and I think the public can
take confidence from the fact that the estimates are well-thought-out and have true
purpose that is generally supported widely by the whole Parliament.
   It is my pleasure to stand and talk on the 2010 Vote Environment estimates. The total
funding sought for Vote Environment this year is $138.893 million, which is
approximately $29 million more than the estimated actual expenditure of $109.76
million in the previous financial year.
   H V Ross Robertson: Who wrote this?
   CHRIS AUCHINVOLE: Perhaps I should break to reassure the member, if he has
difficulty with comprehension, that I am prepared to speak a little more slowly for him.
I am sure he will catch up in the long term.
   Baseline funding for the Ministry for the Environment’s departmental activities has
increased, and this is mainly due to an appropriation of $16.8 million for the proposed
new Environmental Protection Authority to process ministerial call-ins and applications
under the Resource Management Act 1991.
   The main area I wish to focus on in my speech concerns the vastly significant phase
two of the environmental reforms and two of the major aspects in relation to this: the
12726                               Estimates Debate                          27 Jul 2010

Environmental Protection Authority and improving freshwater management. At the end
of phase two we expect to see improved approval times for major infrastructure
projects, better performance from local authorities, enhanced Māori participation, and
an increase in confidence from the general public in the framework of the Resource
Management Act, as they see the benefits of these changes. During question time today,
I think, the Minister for the Environment, my colleague Dr Nick Smith, outlined for the
public some of the remarkable achievements that are already being experienced.
    Dr Smith has outlined to the select committee the Government’s priority of ensuring
that a stand-alone Environmental Protection Authority will become operative by the
beginning of July 2011. I am wholeheartedly behind this. It is imperative that we put
great emphasis on getting the structure of that authority right and on getting it up and
running as soon as it can sensibly be up and running.
    The Environmental Protection Authority will take a greater role in setting stronger
standards for water and for our other precious environmental resources. The intention of
improving freshwater management so that it contributes to economic growth and
environmental integrity is very, very important. Vote Environment includes non-
departmental appropriations of around $20 million for specific water management
initiatives and water-quality improvement initiatives for Lake Taupō, the Waikato
River, and the Rotorua Lakes.
    Work on water management will be a significant policy area for the Ministry for the
Environment, and one of the highest Government priorities. Last year we initiated a
nationwide, collaborative dialogue with farmers, iwi, conservationists, power
companies, irrigators, and recreational groups on water reform through the Land and
Water Forum. The Government is expecting to receive that report later this month.
    It is worth observing that to have success in the environment it is necessary to be in
step with the equal demands of the economy, the community, and corporate culture. All
must move at the same pace if success is going to be achieved in any single one of
them. There are many examples of this on the West Coast, particularly with mining.
    Of course, there is the other example of Environment Canterbury, which is a real
example of the demands of the environment, the economy, the community, and
corporate culture being completely out of step with one another and nothing being
aligned. The Government did step in, and it took action where others had not done so.
Regional councils have been replaced by appointed commissioners. The new temporary
structure allows the fast-track completion of a water storage and water-use plan for
    Recent legislative and regulatory changes will improve water management in New
Zealand. For example, fines for breaches of water-quality resource consent conditions
were increased through the Resource Management (Simplifying and Streamlining)
Amendment Act, and this appears to have led to an increase in prosecutions by regional
    I have enjoyed the discussions we had on Vote Environment at the Local
Government and Environment Committee. My views are consistent with National’s
blue-green approach to environmental governance, such as fostering sustainable
development, long-term consistency, reducing delay and costs, and the use of better
technical information. I could go on at length—
    Aaron Gilmore: And you can—you can go for another 3 or 4 minutes now.
    CHRIS AUCHINVOLE: Well, I think I should. What, for instance, did the previous
Government do that would equal what is being intended in this programme here? It did
very, very little. We could look at the waste minimisation programmes that this
Government is proposing. These appropriations are funded by levies that are payable
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                                 12727

under the Act, and the Minister has informed us that a statutory review of these levies
will take place in 2011. Waste is a singularly important feature of our lives.
   Hon Lianne Dalziel: Why are you wasting time, then?
   CHRIS AUCHINVOLE: Well, I do not know that we are wasting time on
environmental issues. I do not think we are wasting time, at all. Indeed, we are seeing a
huge increase in the amount of work that is being done on environmental issues.
   A particular concern is environmental reporting, because that has been proven to be
considerably wanting. So we have a proposal for environmental reporting to be
considerably improved. The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, who
appears before the select committee regularly, produced a report called How clean is
New Zealand? Measuring and reporting on the health of our environment. The report
notes that New Zealand is the only country in the OECD without a statutory
requirement for environmental reporting, and it proposes measures to improve the way
that data on the state of our environment is gathered and interpreted.
   This brings into question what has been happening in the last 9 years when we have
heard these constant claims of “100% Pure New Zealand”. How has it been measured?
Not very satisfactorily. The Minister has told us that he shares the commissioner’s
concern—probably the first Minister to do so in the last 10½ years—about the
inadequacy of New Zealand’s environmental reporting, and that a national environment
reporting Act is one of his highest legislative priorities. Policy questions to be
investigated include the allocation of responsibility for collecting, auditing, and
interpreting data, and for paying for these functions. This ain’t a simple matter but it is
an important one.
   Hon Darren Hughes: It is.
   CHRIS AUCHINVOLE: The member opposite, the chief Labour whip, thinks it is
a simple matter. But Labour did nothing while it was in Government. It has rendered
our environmental reports to be inept, and that member thinks it does not really matter.
Well, it does matters. It matters not just to New Zealanders; it matters on a comparative
basis with countries throughout the world.
   We have to have a system of environmental reporting that matches our environment
and also has a comparative feature. We need a system that is not a piecemeal product in
the way that information is collected in New Zealand, with different data sets being
managed by organisations such as regional councils, the Ministry for the Environment,
and the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research. Although these
organisations may continue to be responsible for collecting data, it is clear that effective
guidelines on the management and systematic use of this material are required. These
are some of the many steps forward that will be continued on during this period of
Government with this environmental control being executed. Thank you.
   Vote agreed to.
Vote Corrections
    DAVID GARRETT (ACT): We know that many who go to jail once are likely to
reoffend and return to jail. This carries a huge economic and social cost, as housing
prisoners is not cheap. The Minister of Finance said recently that on present trends the
Department of Corrections will be the biggest Government department in 2 or 3 years,
and that is an utter tragedy. Although the ACT Party has focused on ensuring that the
most violent offenders are put behind bars longer, and we make absolutely no apology
about that, we would much rather have no one committing a second-strike or third-
strike offence. To achieve that, it is important that we turn round our appallingly high
reoffending rate. The key to that, it seems, or at least part of it, is to ensure that
prisoners are reintegrated into society successfully. Halfway houses can go a long way
12728                                Estimates Debate                           27 Jul 2010

towards achieving that end. New Zealand already has some halfway houses run by the
Prisoners Aid and Rehabilitation Society and the Salvation Army, and they are doing a
great job in trying circumstances.
    However, the research I have done suggests that what we really need are places with
24-hour, on-site supervision of former prisoners. We have only three of these
currently—in Hamilton, New Plymouth, and Christchurch. Canada is often cited in the
House as a model to look up to, and I understand that Canada has had a very successful
experience with such models. In that country almost all long-term prisoners, after their
sentences, are placed in halfway houses with live-in supervisors. Here is the killer: their
reoffending rates are five or six times lower than here. In our view, that, more than
anything, explains the successes in Canada as opposed to here. Although the supervisors
in those institutions in Canada closely monitor the former prisoners, they do not clean
up after them. It is the former prisoners who do their own shopping, cooking, and
everything else that comes with being free.
    With such a high success rate, we must question why we do not invest more funding
in such projects here. A successfully rehabilitated prisoner costs the State far less than
having to remand him—it is usually a “he”—in custody for his next offence, put him on
trial, then house him again in prison. It is well known and often quoted that the cost of
doing that is $90,000 or so a year. In our view, hand in hand with a tough policy for
those who do not wish to be rehabilitated or who are too dangerous to be in the
community, we must seriously consider funding more halfway houses here. The current
system is clearly not working when we have recidivism rates approaching 80 percent
after 5 years, and it seems that the Canadians have offered us a model in rehabilitation
just as the Americans have offered us a model for locking up the truly dangerous.
    If we do not do something to decrease those reoffending and recidivism rates, we
will continue to have a revolving door system with prisoners inevitably ending up back
where they started. We could forgive those in the corrections service for despairing and
wondering why they bother. If we do not look at rehabilitation programmes, the
Minister of Finance will sadly be proved correct in that most or a very large part of our
taxes will be spent on prisons. I urge the Minister of Corrections to consider using part
of Vote Corrections to establish the kind of houses that appear to be working in Canada,
and, thereby, assist to get our recidivism rates down. Thank you.
    SANDRA GOUDIE (National—Coromandel): I am pleased to speak on Vote
Corrections. It was an absolute godsend that National was voted into Government and
brought in a new and excellent Minister of Corrections, the Hon Judith Collins. I cite
one of the press releases she put out on coming into office as the new Minister, stating
that the pressure on prisons was “a shameful Labour legacy” and “Ongoing pressure on
capacity at New Zealand’s prisons is testament to failed corrections policies under the
former Labour government,”. The National Government had to contend with a raft of
failed policies right across the board, not least in the corrections system. Officials’
advice was being ignored, and the pressure on prison capacity and the probation service
was absolutely pitiful.
    I say to the Opposition that under the leadership of this excellent Minister everything
has completely turned round. For a kick-off, there has been a $1.4 billion increase in the
funding in the Budget. What did the corrections sector get under Labour? Sweet-all. I
tell members that the changes have been absolutely magnificent.
    I start by saying that in relation to the estimates, the public-private partnerships have
been a wonderful initiative, and been a big part of the Budget increase. The public-
private partnerships are a great new innovation in dealing with our prisons, and their
introduction by the new Minister is to be applauded. I refer to the implementation of the
Wiri Prison public-private partnership and the reintroduction of contract management of
27 Jul 2010                          Estimates Debate                                12729

Mount Eden Prison. The previous Labour Government did not see fit to progress that,
which was unfortunate because it was incredibly successful.
   One of the really exciting initiatives of the current Minister is the Prisoner Skills and
Employment Strategy, which is expanding the work-based training in prisons industries.
Several successful examples can be found in the facilities today. They are building
strong relationships with polytechs and institutes of technology, resulting in new,
practical training opportunities for prisoners. This strategy provides for those
relationships to be expanded and for new partnerships to be established. Literacy and
numeracy training is also a key focus, because we know that in our prisons the lack of
those skills is one of the biggest problems we have to contend with. It is being taken
very seriously by the current Minister, who is making great strides in that regard.
   Once again, it is all good news for corrections, and the staff are getting behind the
initiative. They are also getting behind the other initiative of the new awards that have
been established by the Minister to recognise and promote honour and excellence in
corrections. Corrections staff are very excited by the awards because they feel their
work is being valued and they are being backed, promoted, and supported by their
Minister. The people who received the inaugural awards were absolutely delighted. It
was a very big initiative for them.
   Hon Darren Hughes: Ha, ha!
   SANDRA GOUDIE: It was. Sean Francis and Miller Slade received the awards at
the graduation ceremony for corrections officers at Rimutaka Prison in Upper Hutt.
They were the first to receive those awards.
   The Minister established the awards to recognise newly graduated corrections
officers who have demonstrated outstanding achievement. That is just one way of
saying thank you to corrections officers, because they do such an outstanding job. It is a
tough job, and they are helping to restore the public’s faith in the corrections system in
terms of looking after the safety of our citizens. That is an eminently good way to be.
   I will also talk about the containers. We were in a crisis in terms of housing our
prisoners. Opening the container cell units averted that crisis. A reporter spent a night in
one of those containers and found it exceedingly comfortable. That reporter thought it
was a great initiative by the Minister of Corrections and applauded it. Those containers
are quite fantastic. Pictures of them were presented to the Law and Order Committee to
give us greater understanding, and we saw that they were absolutely excellent, and
everybody agreed on that, just not the Opposition.
   TE URUROA FLAVELL (Māori Party—Waiariki): Kia ora. Kia ora, Mr
Chairman, ka nui te mihi ki a koe. Ko tāku he kōrero i te reo Maori me te mihi rā ki te
Whare i tēnei rā, ka mutu, he whakanui i te āhuatanga o te Reo Māori, hei reo mō te
motu. I tēnei wā, i tērā wiki i whakarite a Ngāpuhi i a ia anō, ki te kōrero ki te tangata
nei a Ahorangi James Anaya, me kī, i te reo Pākehā the United Nations special
rapporteur on the situation of human rights and fundamental freedoms of indigenous
peoples. Koinei te wā ka hara mai tētahi mai i tāwahi, nō te Kaunihera Matua o te Ao, ki
   [Thank you, Mr Chairman. I greatly appreciate your giving me the call in that
manner. My address will be in Māori. I commend the House this evening for celebrating
Māori Language Week for the nation. This time last week the people of Ngāpuhi readied
themselves to meet with Professor James Anaya, the United Nations special rapporteur
on the situation of human rights and fundamental freedoms of indigenous peoples. This
was an opportunity for someone from overseas, from the United Nations Human Rights
Council, to come—]
   I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Me kōrero i te reo Māori. He īnoi noa ake
tāku ki te Whare kia ngāwari mai ai tā rātau kōrero ki a rātau anō, he āhua uaua te
12730                               Estimates Debate                           27 Jul 2010

whakaputa i tēnei kōrero i te wā e kōrero ana ētahi o te Whare, ka mutu, ko ētahi i runga
ake nei. Arā, kei runga ake nei, he īnoi tāku, kia ngāwari mai te kōrero ā tētahi ki tētahi.
   [I will speak in Māori. This is a simple request to the Committee that members
moderate and lower the tone of their conversations to each other, because it is very
difficult to address the Committee while some are speaking in the House and above in
the gallery as well. I make this plea to those conversing in the Chamber, and in the
gallery above, as well.]
   The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch): I thank the member for those comments. I
ask everybody—including those in the gallery, where people should have a passive role,
and those down here in the Chamber—to give respect to the member who is speaking.
The level of noise is extremely high. Kei a Te Ururoa Flavell te karanga.
   TE URUROA FLAVELL: Kia ora, Mr Chairman. Pēnei taku kōrero, koinei te wā
ka hara mai tētahi i tāwāhi ki te āta titiro, ki te noho ā-tāngata whenua nei, kaua ko tā te
Kāwanatanga titiro ki a ia anō i tōna kotahi engari, he mea whakaoho nei anō hoki i a
ngāi Māori i te iwi Māori. Anei tētahi kōrero o tana pūrongo:
   [Thank you, Mr Chairman. I was talking about someone from overseas coming to
assess the situation, not by just sitting alongside the Government, but also by raising
awareness among the Māori people, with Māori themselves. Here is an extract from his
   “I cannot help but note the extreme disadvantage in the social and economic
conditions of Māori people, which are dramatically manifested in the continued and
persistent high levels of incarceration of Māori individuals.”
   Nā, ehara i te mea me kōrero tātau i tēnei pō i tēnei pōti mō te āhuatanga o tēnei ao e
kitea ai, ko ngā Māori ē hia kē nei e mauheretia ana engari, e tika anō kia kōrero tātau
mō te hauora o te Māori i roto i ngā pakitara o ngā whare herehere. Hoi anō, i roto i ngā
whārangi ruarua nei mō ngā whare herehere, ko te take e kōrerohia ana, ko te ora o ngā
āpiha kaua, ko te hauora o ngā mauhere. Kare kau he kōrero mō ngā uauatanga o te
moenga rua, arā, mō te double-bunking, o te noho roa ā-here, te kore puta moata o te
rūma here ā-pouaka me te hinga toru, me kī, arā, ko te “three strikes”. Kāti, me hāngai
tonu taku kōrero me taku titiro ki tēnei mea mō te moenga rua, arā, mō te double-
   E hia kē ngā raruraru ka puta i tēnei momo noho, ki taku mōhio. Ehara nāku tēnei
kōrero engari, nā te tohunga nei nā Tākuta Greg Newbold. Hei tāna, mēnā ka whai atu
tātau i tērā huarahi, koinā te mutunga mai o te tari herehere i te motu. Hei tāna, ko tōna
hua mēnā he hua kei reira, he tūkino tētahi ki tētahi, ko te whawhai tētahi ki tētahi, ā, ko
te mahi pāwhera, ko te mahi whakaweti, ko te pakanga. E māharahara ana ahau, koinei
te huarahi ki tērā wāhi rongonui, me kī ki ētahi ki te D Block. I te pērā anō hoki te
Corrections Association. Kāre rātau i whakaae atu ki te moenga rua, arā, i heria tā rātau
take ki te Kōti Mahi i te Hakihea o te tau kua hipa ake.
   Ko te āwangawanga tino nui ki a au, ko te mea whakamataku i a au, ko te moenga-
rua, arā, ko tērā e pā ana ki ngā mate pekepeke nei, arā, infectious diseases,
communicable diseases, arā, ko ngā mate e ngau nei i te mauhere, ko ngā kaimahi tae
atu ki te hapori. Kei reira te raruraru, me kī ake au, me noho wātea te mauhere, ko te
kaimahi i ēnei momo māuiui. Nā, kua whakaarahia ake tēnei take nā taku ohorere, kāore
te komiti whāiti, arā, ko te komiti law and order i āta wānanga i tēnei take. Kāore tētahi
i whakaaro ake mō te hauroa o te hunga kai roto i ō tātau whare herehere. Hei tā te
pūrongo Health in Justice nā te komiti hauora o te motu, mā te Poari ā-Motu e tuku, e
whakahaere ngā āhuatanga i roto i ngā whare herehere. Ko tā te Pāti Māori, koinei te wā
pai ki te wānanga i tēnei take. Tēra pea kia riro mā tētahi kē atu i waho ake o te
Kāwanatanga, mā ngā rata rānei e whakahaere i te hauora ki ngā mauhere kia eke ki te
taumata pēnei i te hapori whānui tonu.
27 Jul 2010                          Estimates Debate                                 12731

   Hei kupu whakamutunga, me mihi ka tika ki te tari mō tōna hiahia ki te mahitahi me
te Māori, kaua mō te mauhere Māori. Me mihi hoki ki te Minita, me mihi hoki ki a
Tākuta Pita Sharples mō tana kaupapa Whare Oranga Ake, nāna tonu tērā i kōkiri. Nā
tēnei huarahi ka riro mā te kaupapa Māori ngā mauhere e āwhina kia hoki ki waenganui
i te hapori, ā, kō te tūmanako ka whai pūtea te kaupapa nei hei whakatinana i te
moemoeā. Mō te Whare Oranga Ake, me noho wātea te mauhere i ngā taru kino, i ngā
mahi tūkino hoki. Koinei tētahi o ngā huarahi pai hei whāinga. Kei reira tonu te raru. I
te noho here te mauhere i te tarutaru me tōna ao kino, ā, ka tangata whenua ia ki te
whare herehere.
   [It is not as though we should debate this vote tonight in respect of the
disproportionate number of Māori seen in prison, but most certainly in respect of the
safety of Māori within prison walls. However, in the few pages allocated to prisons in
Vote Corrections, the concept of safety refers only to the health of staff, and not at all to
prisoner health. There is no mention of difficulties relating to sleeping arrangements as
far as double-bunking is concerned, longer sentences, early release, container cells,
and “three strikes”. However, I will focus my address on the matter of double-bunking.
   From what I have found out, very many difficulties have emerged from this method of
sleeping arrangement. Comments about this are not mine, but are those by
criminologist Dr Greg Newbold. According to him, going down that track would be the
beginning of the decline of the Department of Corrections in this country. In his view,
the outcome of double-bunking, if there is any, would be outbreaks of abuse and
fighting amongst inmates, rape, bullying, and violence. My concern is that such acts
would lead only to that place of ill-fame widely known by some as D Block. Even the
Corrections Association was concerned. It also opposed double-bunking, and took the
case to the Employment Court last December.
   My greatest concern about double-bunking, and the one that scares me, relates to
infectious and communicable diseases—those that affect not only inmates and staff but
the wider community. That is where the problem is. I urge that inmates and staff must
be guarded against those types of ailments. I raised this issue because I was surprised
that the Law and Order Committee did not debate it in detail. The report Health in
Justice from the National Health Committee recommends that the National Health
Board deliver health services in prisons. The Māori Party thinks that this is the right
time to debate whether health service organisations or general practitioners outside of
the Government should provide such a service to inmates to the same level expected in
the broader community.
   In conclusion, I commend the department on its desire to work together with the
Māori people, and not just with Māori inmates. I acknowledge the Minister as well, the
Hon Dr Pita Sharples, for his Whare Oranga Ake initiative, which he engineered. A
Māori approach through this initiative helps prisoners reintegrate into society, and I
hope it receives the funding required to manifest the dream. In respect of Whare
Oranga Ake, inmates must remain drug-free, and violence-free as well. This is one of
the ideal pathways to pursue. However, the problem is still there. An inmate who
chooses to remain addicted to drugs and live in a world of evil will become a long-time
resident in prison.]
   Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Corrections): It is with pleasure that I rise
to speak to the estimates debate in relation to the Department of Corrections. First off, I
congratulate the department, because it has now received an extremely good response
from the public. Research New Zealand’s June 2010 quarterly survey showed that 61
percent of respondents had confidence in the Department of Corrections. That
percentage is up from its previous high of 40 percent when Phil Goff was the Minister
12732                               Estimates Debate                           27 Jul 2010

under a Labour Government. Goodness knows what it was before that under all the
other Ministers it had! So it is 61 percent as opposed to 40 percent.
    That indicates the amount of hard work that has gone on in the Department of
Corrections over the last 18 months and also, frankly, the amount of support that this
Government has given to the changes that needed to be made in the department. For
instance, we have had to increase the number of probation staff by another 303. That is
all about the fact that we have had a big increase over the years in community-based
sentences—45,000 community-based sentences are now being looked after by the
department. That required a large increase in staff, but also the need for the department
to look at the way in which it managed offenders, and to make sure that it was using its
discretion and training to make the very best decisions based on what its officers knew
and what their training taught them.
    We have also seen a big increase in the prisoners housed by the department over the
last decade. When I first came into this role I was told that we would run out of beds for
prisoners by February this year. The Department of Corrections had a plan for that,
which was to increase double bunking and to bring in container cells. When I
announced that we were going to bring in container cells, it was dismissed as a stunt.
We had Peter Williams QC saying that it would be a slum. Well, I invite him to come
out and have a look any time, because it is some of the best accommodation that we
have in the department, frankly. It is a vast improvement on almost anything else that I
have seen around the country. No longer should we see people with potties in their
rooms, as I saw at Waikeria Prison the other day. In container cells it is all mini-en
suites; it is warm and contained, and they are fantastic.
    Metiria Turei: It’s an open toilet in the bedroom.
    Hon JUDITH COLLINS: I know that the Green Party does not like them, but the
cells are recycled so they are very green. I am not quite sure what we have to do to
please the Greens.
    We know that the previous Government built four new prisons and started a rebuild
of Mount Eden Prison. We are looking to finish that rebuild of Mount Eden Prison and
build another prison. We are not looking to build another four; we are looking to build
another one and to complete the one that the previous Government did not finish.
    We are also looking, over the next year, to bring in more of the private sector to work
in the Department of Corrections. I am pleased that the Māori Party supports that. It is
not that we have any problems with the way that the department is doing things, but it is
very important to bring in a benchmark for the department, and also to offer
opportunities for iwi to get more involved in rehabilitation.
    We know that although Māori are 15 percent of the population, they represent 51
percent of the male prison population. The figure is even worse for the female prison
population. I know that the Labour Party does not like to admit it, but basically that tells
us that real social issues are driving that crime. People do not just commit crime; there
are all sorts of things that go on, from the time that an offender is born or probably even
before the offender is born, that lead to crime becoming a way of life. We know that if
we are to succeed in the corrections area, and if we are to succeed in the justice area, we
need to succeed for Māori. If we do not, then we will continue down the path that we
have for years and years of increasing prison populations.
    I think that most people would realise that I am pretty staunch when it comes to
people who commit violent crimes and to locking them away for a long time. Frankly,
there is no problem with that, as far as I am concerned. When more of those sorts of
people are locked away, there are fewer victims. Frankly, that is a good thing. But I
think it is very important to look at what happens when they come out. What amazes me
is that the previous Government, whose members like to make out that it is very kind
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                               12733

about rehabilitation, actually did very little at all. The National Government is doubling
the amount of rehabilitation available to prisoners. We are doubling the amount of drug
and alcohol rehabilitation now, and more than half of our prisoners are involved in any
day in work or educational training. We are doing all of the things that those members
talked about, and we are doing it well.
   Vote agreed to.
Vote Police
    JONATHAN YOUNG (National—New Plymouth): I am very pleased to stand and
speak regarding police. Our excellent Minister of Police, the Hon Judith Collins, has
said: “The purpose of police is to uphold the law fairly and firmly, to prevent crime, to
pursue and bring to justice those who break the law, to protect the community and to do
so with integrity, fairness and common sense.” I believe that the people of New Zealand
see that happening with this Government. We understand that crime is not just a
consequence but also a choice. I believe that although it is a consequence for many
people, to bring about the understanding that people can choose to live in different ways
is very, very important.
    Over the last 18 months the Government has given police additional resources, tools,
and legislative authority to tackle crime. We are seeing tremendous support in our
communities for those measures. The Government’s priorities for the 2010-11 year
reflect its commitment to reinforce the police’s visibility, accessibility, and
responsiveness to the needs of the community.
    We cannot afford to let up in our determination to win the battle against organised
crime, and everybody in this Committee, I am sure, would agree with that. Organised
crime continues to exert its destructive influence in our communities through the
manufacture and sale of methamphetamine, extortion, money-laundering, and violence.
We will continue to focus on deterring participation in criminal gangs, following the
money trails of organised crime, and seizing the proceeds of criminal activities.
    Earlier this year it was reported that $7.4 million worth of proceeds from criminal
activities was seized, taking away motivation and an incentive for those criminals. The
appropriation sought for Vote Police for 2010-11 totals $1.58 billion, which is an
increase of just over 4 percent. Most of this increase goes primarily to the extension of
the numbers of our police force in New Zealand. The target is to grow police numbers
in Counties-Manukau by 300 between November 2008 and December 2010. Police
have estimated that there will be approximately 220 additional police by the end of the
2009-10 year, leaving a balance of approximately 80 for the first 6 months of 2010-11.
Alongside this increase, we target an increase of 600 police nationally between 2008
and December 2011, inclusive of the 300 in Counties-Manukau.
    We also look to increase expenditure touching the investigations and police primary
response management appropriations relating to anti - money-laundering and countering
financing of terrorism, the enactment of the Criminal Investigations Amendment Bill
2009, and domestic violence and enhancing safety in the home.
    We aim to update the police land mobile radio network from analog to digital. The
digital network has already been implemented in Wellington and Auckland, and is due
to be rolled out in Christchurch by December 2010. We look forward to the full
implementation of a secure, encrypted, digital radio network.
    We are pleased to know that the attrition rate of police continues to be low. The
Commissioner of Police, Howard Broad, reported to the Law and Order Committee that
recruits continue to be of extremely high calibre. New Zealanders can be confident that
we have a high-quality police force. Indeed, in the strategic plan 2010 the commissioner
said: “We aim to be a world class Police service. We will accomplish this by developing
12734                                Estimates Debate                           27 Jul 2010

our people to be leaders in all that we do. The distinctive reality of Police is that when
things go wrong in our society, we must be there. We must sound the call for action,
inspire others to join the effort required to bring order to disorder and safety from
danger, and we must set an example of professionalism and integrity. We must be
respectful of our public and ourselves. We must be exemplary ‘guardians of the
    Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Police): As the Opposition is being quiet on
these issues, I think I will have to have a go. It is marvellous to be the Minister of Police
and be the Minister who is responsible for one of the most trusted organisations in New
Zealand. When I say to people that the New Zealand Police is the finest police force in
the world, occasionally they say that of course I would say that. I then ask them which
particular police force they would rather have than ours; I ask them to name one.
Frankly, nobody has yet been able to come up with any credible alternative. That is
because the New Zealand Police is actually the finest in the world. Our police are the
only ones that operate in a community policing role, and for that very reason they are
very highly regarded in situations such as those in Timor-Leste, Afghanistan, and the
Solomon Islands, bringing a form of policing never seen in those countries, and,
frankly, not seen elsewhere.
    The New Zealand Police is an organisation with around 12,000 people, both sworn
and non-sworn, who exemplify the very best attributes that we expect of New
Zealanders. It was great to hear Jonathan Young, who has just resumed his seat, talk
about the calibre of our new recruits. I say they are some of the nicest people that we
could get into the New Zealand Police, and I am really proud of them. I attend most of
the police graduations, and I find that the calibre of graduates is amazing. They are
people from all walks of life, many with professions and trades training, who have come
into the police after they have done other careers, or part-way through them, because
they want to make a positive difference to New Zealand. I am very pleased that we can
get them in here.
    In the last year the New Zealand Police resolved 212,000 offences, increasing its
resolution rate to the highest ever, at 47.9 percent. Yet no organisation can rest on its
achievements, and in the New Zealand Police we are seeing what is being trialled in
Counties-Manukau. I heard the Opposition members screaming out about statistics.
Well, if they go on the police website, they will find that every month the police put up
their statistics for crime, resolutions, and police activity all around the districts. That
was live as of the other week, and people should look at it and see just what the police
are doing. They are doing marvellous work. One of the things they are doing is
proactive policing, and that is incredibly important: having police being seen, being
visible, helping to keep the community safe, and also telling people to come on out, go
shopping, and be seen around the shopping centres, because the police are there and will
protect them. In Counties-Manukau, where this is being trialled, we are seeing an 80
percent drop in handbag snatches, which is pretty amazing in an area where that was
rife—an 80 percent drop.
    In the calendar year to date there have been three homicides in Counties-Manukau.
That is down from about 17 in the year before. It is unbelievable. This is all since we
have had the new recruits in and the new style of policing has been trialled there. We
have seen some remarkable results, not just in Counties-Manukau but in other parts of
the country, where various new ways of doing things have been trialled. It is great to
have a police service that is absolutely committed to doing the right things. When I go
all around the country visiting our police, I come across people who have spent their
whole working lives dedicated to New Zealanders.
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                                12735

   I can say that the worst thing about being the Minister of Police occurs when
something bad happens to one of the police officers.
   Sue Moroney: There’s never a car when they need one.
   Hon JUDITH COLLINS: It is absolutely awful. When anything happens to the
police, it really upsets me. The member over there, Sue Moroney, who clearly does not
respect the police, says there is never a car. Actually, I say to Miss Moroney that the
police travelled more kilometres last year than they did in the year before that, and that
was achieved with a far better use of their cars than previously. One of the reasons is
that the police, just like the rest of us, very much value the fact that taxpayers pay for
everything that they do. They really appreciate that.
   All around the country I know that people are very proud of the fact that we got in
nine new pieces of legislation last year to help the police to do their job. Most of them
came into effect from 1 December last year. We are seeing a massive increase in
methamphetamine seizures and a massive increase in the attacks on organised crime,
and we can start to see some dents being made in that area. I have no idea at all as to
why the previous Government spent 9 years in power without touching the issue of
methamphetamine, in terms of trying to deal with the causes of it. All that Labour ever
did was to talk about anything else. It failed to make any effort to address
methamphetamine; it never gave the police the backing that they needed. It always
bagged them, and it still does.
   Vote agreed to.
Vote Serious Fraud Office agreed to.
Vote Veterans’ Affairs—Defence Force agreed to.
Vote Veterans’ Affairs—Social Development agreed to.
Vote Education
   GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour—Wellington Central): Tēnā koe, Mr Chairman.
Before I go on to matters to do with tertiary education, I move, on behalf of my
colleague the Hon Trevor Mallard, his amendment that is on the Table. It amends
schedule 1 of the Appropriation (2010/11 Estimates) Bill by omitting the number
“1,364,193” after the words “School Property Portfolio Management” and replacing it
with the number “1,364,593”, and by omitting the number “17,610” after the words
“Schools Furniture and Equipment” and replacing it with the number “17,210”.
   This amendment relates to something that Mr Mallard previously put before the
House during the debate on the Education Amendment Bill. He also wrote to the
Minister of Education about it. The amendment enables King’s High School in
Dunedin—and I should declare an interest as a former pupil of that school—to use some
of its 5-year property funding agreement to reduce the balance on a loan that was taken
out to build the school’s performing arts centre. The amendment will resolve a
misunderstanding that arose several years ago that has led to the school using its
operational funding to pay for that loan. It is something that could be easily fixed with a
fiscally neutral transfer between appropriations, as noted by the amendment. I request
that the Minister of Education makes this exception in order to allow King’s High
School to spend its operational money on its operations rather than on paying off debt. I
know that Mr Peachey, Mr Douglas, and others have discussed this before at the
Education and Science Committee, and I hope the Minister will look at this amendment
and allow the school to get on with using its operational money for operational purposes
and its 5-year agreement money to pay off debt.
12736                               Estimates Debate                          27 Jul 2010

    I move now to the question of tertiary education. When I look at the education
estimates and at tertiary education I see that there was a chance for the Government to
finally create a plan for the economy. What could be more important to a plan for the
economy than tertiary education, than creating a skilled workforce, a knowledgable,
innovative population of people who can drive our economy forward? Investing in
tertiary education is the key to doing that.
    A lot has been made of the differences between New Zealand and Australia, but if
we look across the Tasman to Australia, what do we see it doing in the area of post-
secondary education? The Australian Government allocated an extra billion dollars in
the last two Budgets for post-secondary education, it lifted the enrolment cap to allow
enrolment by those affected by the recession, and it has a stated target of having 40
percent of the population with degrees. Currently in Australia around 31 percent of the
population has degrees; in New Zealand that percentage is in the 20s. The Australian
Government has ambitious targets and is using tertiary education as the engine room of
its economy. What are we seeing in New Zealand? The cutting of funding for the
tertiary sector, tens of millions of dollars being taken from polytechnics, and a complete
failure by the Government to respond to a fundamental change to entrance to university.
For the second semester of this year nearly 1,500 students are being denied entry to
Victoria University. Massey University shut its summer school enrolments with half an
hour’s notice. Next year thousands of students who have achieved university entrance
will not be able to enter university. New Zealand has seen huge funding cuts in adult
and community education, and cuts to literacy and numeracy programmes even though
we were told that literacy and numeracy were the priority for this Government.
    So, in short, in Australia we are seeing the Government and tertiary institutions
working out how to get people into education, but in New Zealand we are seeing
universities working out how to stop people from getting into education. How
completely crazy that is, at the very time we should be investing in tertiary education,
and at the very time we should be making sure that all New Zealanders can achieve their
potential. We should be making sure that all New Zealanders, whether they have been
affected by the recession, whether they are coming out of school, or whether they want
to retrain, can achieve their potential.
    As a small country, it is tertiary education, training, skills, and having a workforce
that is constantly innovating that will make the difference for us. We are not a huge
country with massive resources and massive reserves of capital, so we have to rely on
the people in our country. We have to invest in the people in our country. Vote
Education simply does not do that in this Budget. This Budget was an opportunity; there
were choices for this Government. But this Government chose tax cuts aimed at the
wealthy few, rather than investing in the future of New Zealand through funding tertiary
education properly, and through funding education generally properly. This is a
shameful Budget.
    CATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green): Ngā mihi ki te reo rangatira me Te Wiki o
te Reo Māori. Tēna koutou katoa. Educational estimates will always be fraught with
people calling for more money to be spent in the public system, and there is a good
reason for that. The greatest investment we can ever make is in a public education that
works for all our children. But this year was a huge disappointment over a number of
issues, and I will focus on just three.
    A couple of weeks ago, I spoke at the Napier regional kindergarten conference, and I
have to say that the room was seething with discontent—
    Paul Quinn: Seething?
    CATHERINE DELAHUNTY: —seething—because the Government cuts to early
childhood education funding had upset people considerably. We can try to spin it any
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                                 12737

way we like, but the facts remain that kindergartens, which previously had 100 percent
qualified staff and which were actively targeting hard-to-reach families through keeping
costs minimal, now have to find a way to either increase costs or employ cheaper, less-
qualified staff and cut quality in some form. Those people were furious. They just do
not accept that early childhood education is something to be undermined when times get
hard. The Greens agree with them that building motorways may keep the car and truck
lobby happy, but it does nothing for the most important and vulnerable people to enter
learning—or not—through early childhood centres. That is a big fail for the Budget and
for education estimates.
   Secondly, the public-private partnerships in school buildings will cost us. It is a bad
idea to assume that contractors who gain more control over State assets like school
buildings will save money and reduce stresses in schools. If people are trying to make a
profit they have to find a way to cut costs, and that will not be in the best interests of
school students. We know that this is the thin end of the wedge in terms of the
privatisation agenda.
   Finally we have the national standards debacle.
   Grant Robertson: Debacle!
   CATHERINE DELAHUNTY: Debacle! It is enough to make us barking. If we are
going to spend Government money restructuring the education system in primary
schools to improve literacy and numeracy, we might want to discuss the methodology
with practitioners in schools and academics first. Instead, we have the ridiculous
situation whereby the Principals Federation, teachers’ unions, and many parents are
asking for a trial and the Minister is refusing. Teachers who have been attending the
training on national standards say that it is incoherent and unhelpful, especially given
that assessment tools are already well developed.
   The Greens have put out a poster on national standards calling for a far more positive
approach. We believe in small classes, participatory education, properly paid support
staff, and clear reporting to parents, but we are now receiving complaints from parents
that school reports are abrupt and narrow, and show no real knowledge of the child as a
whole person. Ranking children in relation to arbitrary national standards has made at
least one teacher come to me in tears, and another one say that a competent 6-year-old
child now feels like a failure. This is a damaging waste of resources and of potential.
   There is no shame in a rethink of educational policy and a refocus of educational
resources. It is not too late to have a trial on national standards, and for the Minister to
rebuild the damaged relationships with the Principals Federation, teachers’ unions,
concerned parents, and educational academics. All those parties would welcome a trial
as a good use of resources, and would welcome the opportunity to explain to the
Minister the current assessment techniques they are trying to apply. So let us get real
now and stop the attack on the education sector in the name of ideologically redundant
forms of pupil management. League tables are for sports teams, and labels are for jam
   Of course, the Greens are concerned about the systems failing Māori and Pacific
nations, and I am sure the special rapporteur noted these issues, as he did in terms of
prisons. There is a horrible similarity between prisons and schools at the moment, with
the private-partnership model and the lack of proper resourcing in the right order. I
recognise that this issue is very important for Māori and Pacific nations children. We
support better resources and kaiako design standards for kura kaupapa, but 80 percent of
tangata whenua tamariki are in Pākehā schools and they need a great, culturally
appropriate education, too.
   The Government performance on education has achieved a remarkable hat trick in
alienating the early childhood sector, the compulsory sector, and the tertiary sector. I
12738                               Estimates Debate                          27 Jul 2010

have to agree with Grant Robertson on these issues and say that we are throwing away
so many opportunities, and abusing, by closing off, the lists for enrolment into the
tertiary education sector. But we are doing it at the other end, as well, at the expense of
the next generation.
   ALLAN PEACHEY (National—Tāmaki): What is it about the Labour Party and
the Green Party that they do not want New Zealand’s children to learn in school? What
is it about those two parties that means that time after time in this House, when
education is being debated, their members get to their feet and seek to defend the
indefensible? Why do those parties not want children to learn? Why are they so ready to
get to their feet to defend and advocate on behalf of a very narrow sector in education?
   I need to tell those parties that this Budget and this Government recognise that there
is more to education than a couple of teacher unions and a few selfish sector groups.
Education is much more about children and their parents than it is about the groups that
members opposite choose to advocate for. This Budget will spend $12 billion on
education this financial year—$12 billion. That is an increase over 4 years of $1.4
   I understand that it is galling for members opposite to sit there with the realisation
that over 9 years they had one Minister of Education who destroyed all that was good
about the system and two Ministers who then fiddled around with the portfolio with
absolutely no idea what it was all about. What this Budget does for the children of New
Zealand and their parents is to begin to redress that balance. This Budget will increase
the operational funding of schools by $155.9 million. I invite the next speaker from the
Opposition to tell this Committee the last time that a Government granted that sort of
increase to the operational funding of schools. When was the last time? There is $48.3
million provided for the extension of ultra-fast broadband into schools.
   There is new funding for early childhood education. We have heard all about early
childhood education tonight. It is time the Opposition parties stopped making up stories
and started to explain it the way it really is. I will tell them where they can start. They
can start by telling this Committee how, had they survived in Government—which was
never going to happen, anyway—they were going to pay for their promise of 100
percent fully trained staff. The money was not there, and it is wrong for those members
and their Green mates to stand up in this Chamber and claim otherwise. There is a $1.3
billion Government investment in early childhood education. That is an extra $107
million—$107 million. The figure is worth repeating so that members opposite get it
into their heads that this Government has a greater commitment to early childhood
education, as is demonstrated in its Budget, than that mob over there ever had.
   I suggest to certain members opposite that they stop trying to make their names by
claiming to advocate for early childhood education, and that they look at what the true
situation is. There is another member opposite who seems to be very, very keen to make
his name in the tertiary education sector. A $4.2 billion investment has been made by
this Government in tertiary education.
   SUE MORONEY (Labour): Nothing in the estimates shows how much this
Government has no plan for the future more than the savage cuts being made to early
childhood education. If anything would show that a Government understood what a
bright future might look like, it would be investing in our children. It would invest in
making sure that our children had the very best and the highest-quality early childhood
education. What has this Government done? It has cut the funding for high-quality early
childhood education.
   Allan Peachey: Didn’t you listen to what I just said?
   SUE MORONEY: I listened very carefully, I say to Mr Peachey, and I invite the
member to go and meet with the 2,000 early childhood education services that have had
27 Jul 2010                         Estimates Debate                                12739

funding cut. It has been cut to the tune of up to $320,000. One service that I have
spoken to has a funding shortfall of $320,000 per year because of what that Minister of
Education allowed to happen to her portfolio. That damage is being meted out to our
children and to the future.
   This Government promised this country a brighter future. That is what it promised,
and now we have found out exactly what that brighter future looks like. It looks like a
dimmer future. It is a dimmer future for the children, because they will have their
education dumbed down by having fewer qualified teaching staff in early childhood
   A lot of people in the sector have said to me that this move from a Government that
pretends it wants to lift educational achievement makes absolutely no sense. The
national standards are definitely not the way to do it because all that is doing is
measuring what we already know is out there. The Government pretends it wants to lift
educational achievement yet it has cut the funding for qualified staff in early childhood
education. So the Government does not understand that investment is necessary for
early childhood education and it clearly has no plan for the future. Those children are
our future, and it is definitely not the brighter future that this Government promised.
   Two thousand services are affected by the funding cut, but that is just the tip of the
iceberg. At least 93,000 children and their families are affected by this cut. I ask what
that will look like, because the Prime Minister, John Key, is quite fond of saying that he
does not believe that those huge funding cuts of $295 million will be passed on to
families. He said that he thinks that somehow the sector will absorb that shortfall. He
thinks that it will suck in the $295 million shortfall and that it will not be passed on to
families. But that is not what the officials told that Minister of Education. The Budget
papers reveal that the officials warned the Government that the cost would be passed on
to families. They estimated that a cost of between $20 and $45 per child per week
would be passed on to families. That is exactly the effect of the funding cuts. The tax
cuts for low and middle income families will be completely taken away by this funding
cut alone. If families want their children to have access to quality early childhood
education, then they will end up being out of pocket.
   My real concern is that this will lead to a three-tier early childhood education system
in this country. If a family lives in a very wealthy neighbourhood and the parents can
afford to pay the extra $20 to $45 per week per child, then 100 percent of the staff for
that neighbourhood’s children will be qualified, which is great. But a family in a
middle-income neighbourhood will probably have to make do with plan B, a second-
rate service only with up to 80 percent of the teachers of the young children qualified. If
a family lives in a poor neighbourhood, the Minister’s plan for their children is to go to
a playgroup. That is completely upside down.
   All the research and the evidence tells us that it is the children from the low-income
neighbourhoods who should have, and absolutely need, the highest-quality teaching for
their early childhood education years. That can make a real difference to them. They
need the teachers who are qualified, who understand how to make the best of those
children, and who know how to get them off to the best start. But that will not happen
under this Government.
   TE URUROA FLAVELL (Māori Party—Waiariki): Tēnā koe, Mr Chair. Ka nui
te mihi ki a koe e whakanui nei i tō tātau reo Māori. Mēnā ka āta titiro ki te āhuatanga o
ngā take mātauranga, arā noa atu ngā rangahau e mea ana kai raro te Ao Māori e putu
ana, ngā tamariki Māori kua noho ngoikore i roto i ngā kura. Āta titiro ki te hunga
nohinohi, kura tuatahi, kura tuarua tae rā nō ki ngā whare wānanga, koi rā te kōrero. Nō
reira, nei ahau e tangi nei ki a au anō, ki taku iwi, waku iwi, ki te iwi Māori whānui tonu
nā te āhuatanga o ēnei kaute, o ēnei rangahau. Ehara i te mea nō nāia tonu nei ēnei
12740                               Estimates Debate                           27 Jul 2010

āhuatanga, ē kāo. Nō ngā tau e heke nei kua hipa. Nā, kua tae mai ki tēnei wā, anei au e
pātai nei i te pātai, me titiro ki hea? Me anga whakamua ki hea? Kai hea te pae rangi e
wawatatia ana e tēnei whakatipuranga?
    I waenganui i ngā hararei ā-kura kua hipa, e rima ngā hui i tū ki roto i a au o Te
Arawa. Ko tētahi mō te uniana Post Primary Teachers Association. Ko tētahi mō te
uniana New Zealand Educational Institute, Māori tāku e kōrero nei. Ko tētahi mō te
Community Based Language Initiatives, ka mutu, ko tētahi mō ngā kaiako Māori kei
roto i ngā kura reo Māori nei me tana titiro ki te literacy, ā, me te hui whakamutunga i
tū ki roto i a au i Te Arawa, tērā mō te noho o ngā iwi ki te taha o te Kāwanatanga.
    He rawe ēnei hui i te mea i tīmata anō rā te Ao Māori ki te whakakorikori i a ia anō,
ki te titiro i tētahi huarahi hei whāinga. Engari, i tētahi ringa, arā anō ngā Māori e hui
ana, e kōrero ana mō ngā rongoā, mō te māuiui o te kore mātauranga. Kai tētahi ringa,
me kī, ko te tāhuhu o te mātauranga, ko te Kāwanatanga me ōna āpiha. Nā, he kupu
taupatupatu ki tērā momo noho, ko te pūrongo i puta i te Education and Science
Committee, me kī, he pepehā i puta, anei pea i te reo Pākehā, “positive behaviour for
learning; or “best evidence syntheses”. Ko te mate kē, kai te kōrero pea i ētahi wā ngā
komiti mātauranga i runga i te hiahia, kia hari koa, kia titiro ki ngā painga engari, o roto
i tōku ngākau, kai te rongo anō rā i te mamae o taku iwi e noho nei me ngā uauatanga o
te mātauranga. I roto i ngā whiriwhiringa i puta te kōrero o tētahi o ngā āpiha o te
tāhuhu o te mātauranga, ko tana kōrero mai ki ngā hui nei, otirā, ki ētahi hui.
    [Greetings to you, Mr Chair. I greatly appreciate the way you are celebrating this
Māori language of ours. If you take a careful look at educational issues, much of the
research states that Māori are at the bottom of the heap. Māori children in schools
continue to underperform: in early childhood, primary and secondary schools, and
universities, it is the same. So I mourn for myself, my people, and the Māori people at
large, at what these statistics and research show. It is not as if these circumstances are
of recent times. Not at all. It is something from years past. So here we are now, and
here I am asking questions: “Where do we look? Where is the way forward? Where is
the vision that this generation is yearning for?”.
    During the school holidays just past, five educational forums were held in my region
of Te Arawa: one for the Post Primary Teachers Association; one for the New Zealand
Educational Institute—Māori members, that is—one for the Community Based
Language Initiatives; one for Māori teachers from immersion education, focusing on
literacy; and the final one to do with iwi partnerships.
    These meetings were wonderful, because Māoridom began to galvanise itself to find
a path forward. On the one hand, the Māori people are there discussing remedies and
the frustrations due to a lack of educational opportunities; and on the other hand there
are the Ministry of Education, the Government and its officials. A statement that best
describes this conflicting situation is the report from the Education and Science
Committee, which states rather poetically in English: “positive behaviour for learning”
or “best evidence syntheses”. The problem is that the committee at times talks about
wanting us to be happy about positive behaviour for learning, but, in my heart, I feel the
cries of my people undermined by an education system that excludes them. In the
deliberations, a statement was made by an official of the Ministry of Education to these
and other forums.]
   Progress reported.
   Report adopted.
                           The House adjourned at 9.55 p.m.
                                           Index to
                       Tuesday 27 July 2010
                                 EXPLANATION OF ABBREVIATIONS

                                       1R—First Reading
                                      2R—Second Reading
                                       3R—Third Reading
                               CWH—Committee of the whole House
                                S.O.P.—Supplementary Order Paper


Legislation is listed under BILLS. The name of an originating bill that has been divided into separate
                        bills is shown in italics after the names of the new bills.

                                  QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

         Questions are listed under QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER by ministerial portfolio.


ADAMS, AMY—                                          CHAUVEL, CHARLES—
  Estimates Debate—                                    Estimates Debate—
     Year 2010/11, 12686, 12696                           Year 2010/11, 12722, 12724
AUCHINVOLE, CHRIS—                                   COLLINS, Hon JUDITH—
  Estimates Debate—                                    Estimates Debate—
     Year 2010/11, 12725                                  Year 2010/11, 12731, 12734
  Questions for Oral Answer—                         CUNLIFFE, Hon DAVID—
     Resource Management Act Reforms—                  Estimates Debate—
         Role in Economic Recovery, 12664                 Year 2010/11, 12673, 12688
BENNETT, DAVID—                                        Points of Order—
  Questions for Oral Answer—                              Questions for Oral Answer—
     Drink-driving—                                           Minister Required to Answer Only
         Initiatives to Address, 12661                           One Question, 12661
BILLS—                                                        Ministerial Responsibility for
  Appropriation (2010/11 Estimates) Bill,                        Previous Government Policy,
     CWH 12670                                                   12659
BORROWS, CHESTER—                                      Questions for Oral Answer—
  Estimates Debate—                                       Mining in Conservation Areas—
     Year 2010/11, 12710                                      GDP Growth Projections, 12660
BROWNLEE, Hon GERRY—                                 DALZIEL, Hon LIANNE—
  Estimates Debate—                                    Estimates Debate—
     Year 2010/11, 12699, 12703, 12706                    Year 2010/11, 12683
CARTER, Hon JOHN—                                      Tabling of Documents—
  Points of Order—                                        Key, Hon John—
     Absence of Members—                                      Note from member of public giving
         Reference to, 12670                                     his opinion of Hon John Key,
CHADWICK, Hon STEVE—                                             12684
  Points of Order—                                   DAVIS, KELVIN—
     Points of Order—                                  Estimates Debate—
         May be Used for Clarification, 12697             Year 2010/11, 12685
ii                                  TUESDAY 27 JULY 2010

DELAHUNTY, CATHERINE—                          ESTIMATES DEBATE—continued
  Estimates Debate—                              Appropriation (2010/11 Estimates) Bill,
     Year 2010/11, 12736                            CWH—continued
DOCUMENTS TABLED—                                       Votes—continued State-Owned
  see TABLING OF DOCUMENTS—                                Enterprises, 12711
DOUGLAS, Hon Sir ROGER—                                 Tourism, 12685
  Estimates Debate—                                     Veterans’ Affairs—Defence Force,
     Year 2010/11, 12692                                   12735
DYSON, Hon RUTH—                                        Veterans’ Affairs—Social
  Estimates Debate—                                        Development, 12735
     Year 2010/11, 12714                       FLAVELL, TE URUROA—
  Points of Order—                               Estimates Debate—
     Unparliamentary Language—                      Year 2010/11, 12729, 12739
         “what a liar”, 12718                    Māori Language / Te Reo, 12729, 12739
  Questions for Oral Answer—                     Points of Order—
     Health Services—                               Chamber, Lobbies, and Galleries—
         Cuts, 12663                                    Conduct in Public Gallery, 12729
  Tabling of Documents—                        FOSS, CRAIG—
     Health Services, Cuts—                      Estimates Debate—
         Letter from director, planning and         Year 2010/11, 12687, 12694
            funding, Capital and Coast           Questions for Oral Answer—
            District Health Board, to Leader        Economic Growth—
            of the Opposition’s office                  Challenges, 12659
            regarding mental health and        GARRETT, DAVID—
            addiction funding 2007-10, 15        Estimates Debate—
            July 2010, 12664                        Year 2010/11, 12709, 12727
ENGLISH, Hon BILL—                               Questions for Oral Answer—
  Estimates Debate—                                 Foreshore and Seabed Act Review—
     Year 2010/11, 12690                                Prime Minister’s Statements, 12668
ESTIMATES DEBATE—                              GOODHEW, JO—
  Appropriation (2010/11 Estimates) Bill,        Points of Order—
     CWH—                                           Points of Order—
     Votes—                                             May be Used for Clarification, 12697
         ACC, 12722                            GOUDIE, SANDRA—
         Audit, 12670                            Estimates Debate—
         Climate Change, 12722                      Year 2010/11, 12728
         Commerce, 12707                         Questions for Oral Answer—
         Communications Security and                Crime, Organised—
            Intelligence, 12670                         Police Operations, 12668
         Corrections, 12727                    GRAHAM, Dr KENNEDY—
         Economic Development, 12697             Estimates Debate—
         Education, 12735                           Year 2010/11, 12691
         Energy, 12704                         HAGUE, KEVIN—
         Environment, 12722                      Estimates Debate—
         Finance, 12688                             Year 2010/11, 12705
         Health, 12714                         HUGHES, Hon DARREN—
         Justice, 12707                          Estimates Debate—
         Ministerial Services, 12670                Year 2010/11, 12681
         Office of the Clerk, 12670            HUGHES, GARETH—
         Ombudsmen, 12670                        Questions for Oral Answer—
         Parliamentary Commissioner for the         Public Transport, Auckland—
            Environment, 12670                          Rail System, 12666
         Parliamentary Service, 12670          KATENE, RAHUI—
         Police, 12733                           Questions for Oral Answer—
         Prime Minister and Cabinet, 12670          Human Rights—
         Security Intelligence, 12685                   United Nations Special Rapporteur’s
         Serious Fraud Office, 12735                       Report, 12655
         State Services, 12722
                                                INDEX                                        iii

KING, Hon ANNETTE—                                 POINTS OF ORDER—continued
  Estimates Debate—                                  Questions for Oral Answer—
     Year 2010/11, 12670                                Minister Required to Answer Only One
  Points of Order—                                         Question, 12661
     Questions for Oral Answer—                         Ministerial Responsibility for Previous
         Tone of Reply, 12656                              Government Policy, 12659
  Questions for Oral Answer—                            Tone of Reply, 12656
     Costs and Prices—                               Unparliamentary Language—
         Effect of Government Policies,                 “what a liar”, 12718
            12656                                  POWER, Hon SIMON—
LABAN, Hon LUAMANUVAO WINNIE—                        Estimates Debate—
  Estimates Debate—                                     Year 2010/11, 12707, 12711
     Year 2010/11, 12720                           QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER—
  Māori Language / Te Reo, 12720                     Economic Development—
MACKEY, MOANA—                                          Income Gap, Parity with Australia—
  Estimates Debate—                                        Milestones, 12669
     Year 2010/11, 12711                             Environment—
MAHUTA, Hon NANAIA—                                     Resource Management Act Reforms—
  Estimates Debate—                                        Role in Economic Recovery, 12664
     Year 2010/11, 12704                             Finance—
MALLARD, Hon TREVOR—                                    Economic Growth—
  Estimates Debate—                                        Challenges, 12659
     Year 2010/11, 12695                                Mining in Conservation Areas—
  Questions for Oral Answer—                               GDP Growth Projections, 12660
     Employment—                                     Health—
         Workplace Access for Union                     Health Services—
            Representatives, 12665                         Cuts, 12663
MĀORI LANGUAGE / TE REO—                             Labour—
  Flavell, Te Ururoa, 12729, 12739                      Employment—
  Laban, Hon Luamanuvao Winnie, 12720                      Workplace Access for Union
MORONEY, SUE—                                                  Representatives, 12665
  Estimates Debate—                                  Police—
     Year 2010/11, 12738                                Crime, Organised—
NORMAN, Dr RUSSEL—                                         Police Operations, 12668
  Estimates Debate—                                  Prime Minister—
     Year 2010/11, 12677                                Costs and Prices—
  Tabling of Documents—                                    Effect of Government Policies,
     Drink-driving—                                            12656
         “Further Information on the Proposal           Foreshore and Seabed Act Review—
            to Lower the Adult Drink Drive                 Prime Minister’s Statements, 12668
            Limit to BAC 0.05”, Ministry of             Human Rights—
            Transport, March 2010, 12662                   United Nations Special Rapporteur’s
PARKER, Hon DAVID—                                             Report, 12655
  Estimates Debate—                                  Transport—
     Year 2010/11, 12674, 12697                         Drink-driving—
  Questions for Oral Answer—                               Initiatives to Address, 12661
     Income Gap, Parity with Australia—                 Public Transport, Auckland—
         Milestones, 12669                                 Rail System, 12666
PEACHEY, ALLAN—                                    ROBERTSON, GRANT—
  Estimates Debate—                                  Estimates Debate—
     Year 2010/11, 12738                                Year 2010/11, 12701, 12735
POINTS OF ORDER—                                   RYALL, Hon TONY—
  Absence of Members—                                Estimates Debate—
     Reference to, 12670                                Year 2010/11, 12716
  Chamber, Lobbies, and Galleries—                 SMITH, Hon Dr NICK—
     Conduct in Public Gallery, 12729                Estimates Debate—
  Points of Order—                                      Year 2010/11, 12723
     May be Used for Clarification, 12697
iv                                  TUESDAY 27 JULY 2010

STREET, Hon MARYAN—                            TABLING OF DOCUMENTS—continued
  Estimates Debate—                              Key, Hon John—
     Year 2010/11, 12678                            Note from member of public giving his
TABLING OF DOCUMENTS—                                  opinion of Hon John Key, 12684
  Drink-driving—                               TE REO—
     “Further Information on the Proposal to     see MĀORI LANGUAGE / TE REO—
        Lower the Adult Drink Drive Limit      TUREI, METIRIA—
        to BAC 0.05”, Ministry of Transport,     Estimates Debate—
        March 2010, 12662                           Year 2010/11, 12679
  Health Services, Cuts—                       WAGNER, NICKY—
     Letter from director, planning and          Estimates Debate—
        funding, Capital and Coast District         Year 2010/11, 12719
        Health Board, to Leader of the         YOUNG, JONATHAN—
        Opposition’s office regarding mental     Estimates Debate—
        health and addiction funding 2007-          Year 2010/11, 12733
        10, 15 July 2010, 12664

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