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					12 NOVEMBER 2004                                          PAGE: 1

                         FRIDAY, 12 NOVEMBER 2004

                                   ____



                   PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

                                   ____



The House met at 09:02.



The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a

moment of silence for prayers or meditation.



ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – See col 000.



                             NOTICE OF MOTION



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I give

notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move:



  That the House resolves that-



    (1)   in terms of section 2(1) of the Remuneration of Public

          Office Bearers Act, 1998 (ACT No 20 of 1998), and having

          due regard to the criteria listed in that subsection, the

          salary and allowances payable to the President of the

          Republic of South Africa be determined at seven hundred

          and ninety-two thousand three hundred and thirty-nine
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 2


          rand, eighty-one cents (R792 339,81) and two hundred and

          sixty-four thousand one hundred and thirteen rand,

          nineteen cents (R264 113,19) per annum, respectively, with

          effect from 1 April 2004; and



    (2)   in terms of section 2(2) of the said Act, the amount of

          forty thousand rand (R40 000) per annum be determined as

          that portion of the remuneration of the President to which

          section 8(1)of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of

          1962), shall apply.




  Agreed to.



                          MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS



                     THE DEATH OF DR NEIL WHITE



                        (Member‟s Statement)



Ms Z A KOTA (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, the ANC notes with great

sadness the passing away of Dr Neil White, who was an associate

professor at the UCT medical school. Comrade Neil has contributed in

the struggle to bring about democracy in our country. He was one of

the dedicated and committed comrades during the dark days of
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 3


apartheid. He attended to many combatants, including Comrade Oscar

Mpheta.



Many will remember Comrade Neil for his fight against asbestos and

assisting mineworkers who were affected by those working conditions.

This gallant fighter departed having seen the fruits of his hard

work. The ANC sends its deepest sympathy to his wife, Comrade

Justine, an activist who was one of the delegates at the Codesa

gender advisory committee, and their two sons. We commit ourselves

to picking up his fallen spear.



            SALE OF THINTANA SHARES TO ELITE CONSORTIUM



                        (Member‟s Statement)



Dr E NKEM-ABONTA (DA): Thank you. The DA considers the sale of

Thintana‟s remaining 15,1% in Telkom to an elite government-aligned

consortium an opportunity lost for broad-based empowerment; an

unusually unfortunate example of crony capitalism. The transfer of

equity to a well-connected few at the expense of ordinary South

Africans has become the empowerment pattern, under this government‟s

BEE policy. [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, please.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 4


Dr E NKEM-ABONTA (DA): It is crony capitalism. Here crony capitalism

has been taken to new levels. The deal includes Smuts Ngonyama, who

is an active official of the ruling party, and Andile Ngcaba, who

has only recently vacated a director-generalship of the Department

of Communications.



The consortium will be entitled to appoint two members of the Telkom

board. It is not as if an alternative, without the burden of the ANC

heavyweights, was not on the table. The DA proposed a people‟s

consortium, which could have included beneficiaries numbering in the

millions through stokvels and burial societies. [Interjections.]



The Minister should reject crony capitalistic deals, and go for

real, broad-based empowerment. [Applause.]



                      MATHS AND SCIENCE SURVEY



                        (Member‟s Statement)



Prince N E ZULU (IFP): Madam Deputy Speaker, according to an

independent study conducted by a policy research and advocacy

programme there are 50 000 high school pupils around South Africa at

any given time who could pass maths and science, but their schools

discourage them from taking these subjects, fearing a low pass rate.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 5


What is even more discouraging is that according to the survey 3 700

of the 50 000 pupils could have passed the subjects on higher grade.

Also revealed in the survey was that although enrolment in senior

certificate maths for grade 10 to 12 nearly doubled, the enrolment

in higher grade maths decreased significantly. Very worrying is the

fact that only 14,7% of educators teaching maths and science have

been found to have the minimum prescribed qualifications. Maths and

science are subjects that are required to obtain entry to tertiary

institutions for a number of courses. It is therefore essential that

the department takes note of the findings of the study, as well as

its recommendations, and tries to find ways of increasing the number

of pupils who take maths and science. Pupils should be encouraged to

take these subjects, and not discouraged from doing so. I thank you,

ma‟am. [Applause.]



               INTERNATIONAL DAY OF DISABLED PERSONS



                        (Member‟s Statement)



Mrs W S NEWHOUDT-DRUCHEN (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, on 3 December

South Africa will be joining the family of nations in celebrating

the International Day of Disabled Persons. The world programme of

action concerning disabled persons was adopted by the UN General

Assembly on 3 December 1982. This programme of action jolted the

international community into action to give full recognition to
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 6


rights of persons with disabilities to equal opportunities and full

participation in the economic and social life of their communities.

The ANC supports multilateral institutions and initiatives aimed at

promoting a world based on human rights values, including the UN

Standard Rules on the Equalisation of Opportunities for Persons with

Disabilities, to further promote the rights of persons with

disabilities among member states.



The ANC commitment to the advancement of the rights of persons with

disabilities, even before it came into power in 1994, has led to the

many achievements that we have realised in the first ten years of

democracy. Among these achievements is a notable increase in the

number of members of Parliament with disabilities, especially from

the ANC, as well as the establishment of the OSDP at national,

provincial and local levels. May I invite this House and all South

Africans to join all people with disabilities in celebration of the

International Day of Disabled Persons on 3 December. I thank you.

[Applause.]



                       HIV AND AIDS AWARENESS



                        (Member‟s Statement)



Ms S N SIGCAU (UDM): The UDM would like to make use of this

opportunity as the last sitting of this House before Aids Day on 1

December to raise again the matter of HIV and Aids. In the past few
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                        PAGE: 7


days we have witnessed a number of painful reminders of the presence

of HIV/Aids in our country. On Sunday we lost an artistic giant when

Gibson Kente passed away. We salute his courage and campaigning for

greater HIV/Aids awareness.



On Tuesday the SABC reported that the Department of Health has

announced that 37,5% of the population of KwaZulu-Natal are HIV-

positive. This is a staggering number of people in need of urgent

assistance. We urge all South Africans to conduct safe sex, remain

faithful to their partners, and make responsible sexual choices. I

thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]



             COOLING-OFF PERIOD FOR SENIOR PUBLIC SERVANTS



                         (Member‟s Statement)



Mr A HARDING (ID): Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The ID supports

a call for a cooling-off period for senior public servants when they

leave office, as well as for public representatives. This is needed

in order to prevent conflict of interest and the use of undue

influence via their political connections to further their business

interests.



The Telkom case provides but one example of how bureaucrats used

office and development of policies to their own benefit. This

reflects on the broader picture of crony capitalism occurring in
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                        PAGE: 8


most of these deal-making activities. This type of activity,

especially in the Telkom case, artificially inflates the share price

which means more debt to service loan payoffs, etc, and does not

reflect and underlie the value of core businesses.



The ID reinforces the call for broad-based BEE incorporating,

amongst other things, employee share options. I thank you.

[Applause.]



              STIFLING OF DEBATES ON IMPORTANT ISSUES



                        (Member‟s Statement)



Mrs C DUDLEY (ACDP): Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The ACDP is

extremely concerned that Parliament is deteriorating into a farce,

where every word the opposition speaks has to be vetted by the ANC

with constant censoring under the pretext that statements are

unparliamentary. [Applause.]



It would be a joke; only it is no longer funny. First we are

censored by time and now we are told what we can and can‟t say. It

is extremely disturbing when the governing party tries to stifle

debate on important issues, like the choice of termination of

pregnancy, as was witnessed in the House yesterday.
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Also, the triumphalism and celebration that followed the chairman of

the health committee‟s declaration that 280 000 children had been

terminated since the Act was first passed – actually that figure is

way less than the real figure – was frankly nothing less than

nauseating.



The public are totally disrespected as their representatives are

strangled by procedure. Attempts to pretend that the CTOP Bill is

not about abortion amount to treacherous deception: Whether a baby

is terminated or aborted it dies, and it dies a violent death.

The Deputy Minister of Health‟s claims recently during question time

amounted to the perception that a vote for the ANC was a vote for

abortion, and MPs vigorously applauded her. Yet, contrary to the

ANC‟s claims that SA women want abortion, the HSRC survey show that

70% believe aborting babies, because you can‟t afford them is always

wrong. In fact, the number rises to 74% for black South Africans.

Thank you. [Time expired.][Applause.]



                   SA CONSTITUTION AND HUMAN RIGHTS



                         (Member‟s Statement)



Ms M P MENTOR (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, 10 December is

International Human Rights Day. It is also the day on which the

first president of the democratic state, the former President

Mandela, assented to the Constitution in 1996.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 10




The Constitution of South Africa, which is internationally

acclaimed, is the supreme law of our country and is founded on human

rights and the rule of law. As the Preamble of the Constitution

proclaims, South Africa should continue to recognise the injustices

of our past, to honour those who suffered for justice in our land,

and to respect those who have worked to build and develop our

country.



The ANC calls on Parliament and the people of South Africa, based on

the Constitution, to work towards the following: healing the

divisions of the past; establishing a society based on democratic

values, social justice, and fundamental human rights; improving the

quality of life of all South Africans; laying the foundation of an

open society in which government is based on the will of the people;

and building a united, democratic South Africa that is able to take

its rightful place as a sovereign state in the family of nations.

Amandla ngawethu! [Power is ours!] [Applause.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I know that this is the last day

that we have a plenary. There are too many meetings going on, which

I would encourage to continue, but outside the Chamber so that we

continue business and are able to hear one another.



I really respect that people have those meetings so that they take

one another‟s details and continue communicating outside the House,
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                         PAGE: 11


but I am sure the business can be taken elsewhere, and it will be

much better outside where no-one will call you to order.

I am just trying to say that we should respect the people

participating this morning.



              PLIGHT OF THE CAREGIVERS OF THE DISABLED



                         (Member‟s Statement)



Ms H WEBER (DA): Madam Deputy Speaker, December is recognised as a

month for the disabled, when we should be addressing their plight.

It should be a month of giving and goodwill when we give an extra

thought for those less advantaged than we are.



To care for the disabled takes great dedication. Fortunately, we are

blessed with many such people, but unfortunately their time is taken

up by fundraising to keep the doors of such institutions open. Many

institutions place their hope on the Lotto for a donation to

survive.



I urge the Minister to take cognisance of the many institutions that

are run by NGOs and are in danger of closing their doors. It is

common knowledge that funding by government to NGOs has almost dried

up. I would urge government to speed up the criteria for funding

these valuable institutions, which government is unable to provide.

Thank you. [Applause.]
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                        PAGE: 12




                     EVICTIONS IN PROTEA GLEN, SOWETO



                           (Member‟s Statement)



Dr S E M PHEKO (PAC): Deputy Speaker, the PAC is disturbed that

within a short space of two months the residents of Protea Glen in

Soweto are again being evicted and are losing their property to

sheriffs, who have always pounced on them like vultures upon

helpless chickens.



The situation occurs with regular monotony despite the fact that

these Protea Glen residents were assured that there would be

intervention with the bank regarding sheriffs. A number of residents

are unable to pay their bonds because of the high rate of

unemployment. Many have lost their jobs through retrenchments.



The PAC appeals to those who wield power to wield it in favour of

the poor and the powerless. The PAC has long advocated a moratorium

on land evictions. It is a shame that those who were dispossessed of

their land continue to be victims of land evictions, rain or no

rain, cold or no cold. Land evictions are often executed in the name

of development; development must develop people, not destroy them

for the rich and the powerful. Land repossession; not land

evictions.   [Applause.]
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                        PAGE: 13




                   DA MEMBER IMPLICATED IN CORRUPTION



                          (Member‟s Statement)



Mr B M SOLO (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, yesterday in this House the

hon Chief Whip of the DA read a statement informing us about some

member of the DA who is implicated in corruption. We hope that the

hon Gibson, Spinnekop, [Spider] and the DA will learn what we have

been telling them all the time.



We have said, time and again, corruption knows no colour or party

affiliation. It is a social problem that arises out of our complete

historical reality, characterised by the centuries of...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon member!



Mr W J SEREMANE: On a point of order. This is getting very serious

and out of hand.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is the point of order, sir?



Mr W J SEREMANE: Is it parliamentary to refer to an hon member with

epithets such as “spinnekop” [spider]? [Laughter.]
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                          PAGE: 14


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, did you refer to any hon member as

“spinnekop”?



Mr B M SOLO: No, I can‟t remember. [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: He didn‟t.



Mr B M SOLO: Whether the DA likes to hear this or not is another

matter. We note the DA‟s failure to deal with their latest

corruption scandal.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon member!



Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Madam Deputy Speaker, would you give a ruling on

what the question was over here.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I asked the hon member, and if an hon member

says that he did not say that, I have to take his word.

[Interjections.] Hon member, continue.



Mr B M SOLO:   Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.



Mr W J SEREMANE: Madam Deputy Speaker, I heard it clearly. He did

say that.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 15


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We will check the record, but for now we take

his word. If indeed he did utter the word “spinnekop”, we‟ll come

back to the House. [Interjections.]



Mr B M SOLO: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. We hope the hon Gibson

and the DA will learn what we have been telling them all the time.

We have said time and again that corruption knows no colour. It

knows no party affiliation. It is a social problem that arises out

of our concrete historical reality, characterised by centuries of

illegitimate colonial and racist rule.



Whether the DA likes to hear this or not, is another matter. We note

that because of the DA‟s failure to deal with their latest

corruption scandal, the DA now tries to draw the names of other

parties into the matter. Again, we must tell the DA that this

approach to handling corruption of DA members is not going to work.

They must stop trying to appease certain sections of our communities

and start contributing to the national effort to rid our country of

corruption. I thank you.



        DRAFT PREFERENTIAL PROCUREMENT EXCLUDES WHITE WOMEN



                           (Member‟s Statement)



Mrs S M CAMERER (DA): Madam Deputy Speaker, the new draft

preferential procurement regulations were published for comment on 4
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October and exclude white women and white disabled people from

receiving preference. Should they replace the current regulations,

it may be an embarrassment when South Africa next has to report to

the United Nations committee on the Convention on the Elimination of

All Forms of Discrimination Against Women.



Article 3 of that convention states:



     State Parties shall take in all fields, in particular in the

 political, social, economic and cultural fields, all appropriate

 measures, including legislation, to ensure the full development

 and advancement of women, for the purpose of guaranteeing them the

 exercise and enjoyment of human rights and fundamental freedoms on

 the basis of equality with men.



The convention deals with all women and not only women of a certain

race. South Africa ratified the UN Convention on the Elimination of

All Forms of Discrimination Against Women without reservation and is

legally bound to put its provisions into practice.



In the new draft regulations the prescribed balanced scorecard now

applies only to black people, meaning Africans, coloureds and

Indians. This means that white women and white disabled people who

currently receive preference points when they tender for contracts

will in future be excluded and will probably, in many instances,

fall out of the race for government contracts altogether. So the DA
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appeals to the ANC government to reconsider these regulations. Thank

you, Chair. [Applause.]



        INCLUSIVE EDUCATION FOR LEARNERS WITH SPECIAL NEEDS



                          (Member‟s Statement)



Mr T E VEZI (IFP): Madam Deputy Speaker, discrimination in any form

is totally unacceptable and does not have any place in society. It

is therefore very unfortunate and sad when disabled people or people

with special needs are discriminated against. It is inexcusable for

people to be excluded from or to lose their place in society simply

because they are disabled or have special needs. Poor people and

people in rural areas are particularly affected by this.



We are therefore greatly encouraged by the Department of Education‟s

efforts to implement inclusive education in terms of which learners

with special needs will be included. We are particularly interested

in the Minister‟s plans to implement inclusive education in rural

areas, as these learners have for far too long been excluded because

of their special needs and disabilities.



Inclusive education has the potential to make a positive difference

to the lives of many people. We therefore hope that plans to

implement it are at an advanced stage. I thank you.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 18

          EMPANGENI POLICE COMMENDED FOR POSITIVE ATTITUDE



                        (Member‟s Statement)



Mr M R SIKAKANE (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, I rise to pronounce my

appreciation for the attitude of the police of Empangeni and for the

service they are rendering to the community.



The communities around Empangeni police station are proud that they

never leave the police station unattended and that they get prompt

attention. Surely the Batho Pele spirit is working in this police

station. We urge the communities to reciprocate by showing the

police respect and to co-operate with them. We hope that all police

stations in the country will emulate the Empangeni police. I thank

you.



                        MINISTERS’RESPONSES



PROBLEMS REGARDING BOND REPAYMENTS, ILLEGAL EVICTIONS AND PROTECTION

                         OF PROPERTY RIGHTS



                       (Minister‟s Response)



The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Thank you very much,

Deputy Speaker. In response to the statement made by the hon Pheko,

I would like to respond as follows.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 19




If one looks at the mechanisms that have been put in place by the

Ministry and the Department of Housing to assist those communities

or members who have difficulties with regards to the payment of

their bonds, one would recall that an entity known as Safcon was put

in place, whose task it was to assist members who may not have been

able to pay their bonds and find them alternative accommodation.



However, part of the challenge is that many people in our

communities are either not aware of this or sometimes find it

difficult, because such alternative accommodation may mean a place

that is smaller than what they are used to. This is a matter, in my

view, in which members of Parliament themselves can assist so that

we can indeed ensure that those people who have difficulty paying

their bonds are not left on the street.



I quite agree with the hon member when he says that land evictions

are not acceptable. However, we need to appreciate that this House

has put two pieces of legislation in place to ensure that no illegal

evictions take place. The Extension of the Security of Tenure Act is

one such piece of legislation. The Prevention of Illegal Squatting

Act is another piece of legislation that balances interests - as

some people may actually invade land unlawfully - to ensure that

people do not affect the property rights of others. However, it does

stipulate that the landowner also has a responsibility to report and

take action as soon as such invasion takes place.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 20




I think these safeguards were put in place to ensure that you

protect, on the one hand, the citizen‟s property rights, while, on

the other hand, that you are conscious of vulnerability in terms of

landowners who illegally evict individuals willy-nilly. I trust that

these mechanisms, coupled with other programmes of government such

as land reform and the housing programme, are intended to secure the

security of tenure of all South Africans. Thank you very much,

Chair.



          CONCERNS REGARDING MATHS, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY



                       (Minister‟s Response)



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Deputy Speaker, I just want

to draw your attention to the fact that two issues were raised by

two members and to take this into account in terms of my response.



Regarding the concern that was raised in relation to mathematics,

science and technology, we raised this concern prior to the release

of the report, and we do agree that this is a matter that we do have

to be attentive to.



In 1991 we started a mathematics, science and technology initiative

in terms of which we established 102 Dinaledi schools. These schools

were dedicated schools for mathematics and science. The 102 schools
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 21


constituted 1,5% of the Grades 10, 11 and 12 cohort of learners in

the country.



Over the years these schools have contributed more than 30% of

students at university doing mathematics and science. We, however,

recognised certain things already a few months ago, and when we

discussed the matter with the portfolio committee we identified

certain issues that had to be taken note of.



The first was the psychological barrier that was created when

children or learners were told that mathematics was difficult. We

believe this is the first step that has to be taken is to break down

the barriers in terms of mathematics and science.



In terms of our engagement with the portfolio committee and the

review of the strategy, we also recognised that it was important

that we ensured that there was sufficient capacity amongst teachers

in order to be able to teach the subjects. A teacher who has the

ability to motivate, and who is aware of the content of mathematics

and science, would obviously contribute meaningfully or enhance the

results in mathematics and science.



We also raised the concern that it was not sufficient or adequate

that we provide quantitatively more learners doing mathematics and

science, but with too few learners doing so in higher grade. It was

therefore important that we raised the bar in terms of the
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 22


registration of learners doing mathematics and science in higher

grade. It was also important to take into account that ICT had a

particular role to play in the development of mathematics, science

and technology and, therefore, we would ensure that we did so in a

creative and innovative way.



What was also important was to recognise the roles of universities

and universities of technology in terms of ensuring that they assist

and support the initiatives of government regarding its national

strategy. We have already engaged with certain institutions, and

they are looking very carefully at how they can accelerate

development in these areas.



So, the concerns that have been reflected in the report are concerns

that we share, which we were aware of long before the release of the

report and, certainly, we will be attentive to those

recommendations.



With regard to the issue raised by the hon member in so far as

inclusive education is concerned, I would like to thank him for his

sentiments. Indeed, the Department of Education has a policy in

terms of inclusive education. The policy is based on the fact that

education for children with special disabilities was predominantly

provided to members of the white race. The facilities by and large

in the past, were also located in Pietermaritzburg, Cape Town or

Johannesburg. We thought that we had to turn that around and make
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 23


sure that these institutions were accessible to the entire

population.



The approach of the Department of Education and the Ministry has

been that one does not look at disability or inclusive education on

the basis of an individual deficit but, rather, in a very systemic

way. For this reason, we have set about initiating elaborate pilot

projects to ensure that we can, in a very systematic way, determine

what the most useful approach is. The framework within which we

intend working is a period of 10 to 15 years. Obviously, you will

understand, hon member, that it will require enormous resources.



As a first phase we have recommended that provinces convert at least

15 schools into resource centres in each province. Where they cannot

convert the schools, they might well establish new schools. These

schools would be feeder schools to other institutions where children

have disabilities. There would be resource centres that would be

able to provide capacity in terms of teaching, in terms of the

development of content, etc.



This initiative has already taken place, and it will be expanded

progressively and incrementally. Thank you very much, hon Deputy

Speaker. [Time expired.]



                    ABORTION AND INFORMED CHOICE
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                         PAGE: 24


                       (Minister‟s Response)



IPHINI LIKANGQONGOSHE WEZEMPILO: Phini likaSomlomo, ngisukumela

ukuphendula inkosazana, umhlonishwa uDudley, ngesitatimende asenzile

khona maduze nje. Isitatimende sakhe, ngeshwa, sigcwele okuningi

okungesilo iqiniso. Ngesintu-ke sithi: ngamanga nje aluhlaza cwe.

Izolo besiphasisa uMthetho ... [Inhlokomo.]    (Translation of Zulu

paragraph follows)



[The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Speaker, I stand up to

respond to the hon Ms Dudley with regard to the statement she has

made. It is unfortunate that her statement contains many things that

are untrue. In my language we say “blatant lies”. Yesterday we

passed the Act ... [Interjections.]]



Mr L M GREEN: Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: The Deputy

Minister indicated in her response that our member told blatant

lies. I think that is unparliamentary and I would like you to ask

the Deputy Minister to please withdraw that. [Interjections.]




The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think it‟s a problem of language. I will tell

you, Mr Green, how I understood it. What the Deputy Minister said

was, “ukhulume izinto ezingelona iqiniso” [she spoke about things

that are not true] and she actually went on to say that, in her

language, that would be referred to as blatant lies.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                          PAGE: 25




Mr L M GREEN: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I just heard the

interpretation, “lies”.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There was a context to that. Deputy Minister,

will you please continue.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Deputy Speaker, may I ask

you on a point of order: If I were to say, in my language, that

something is blatant lies, would that be parliamentary?

[Interjections.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Deputy Minister, much as I speak and

understand isiZulu very well, we have a problem that we must

address, especially now when members leave, and that is the

interpreting service. Regarding what comes through in most cases,

people have complained that it is not actually what a member said.

The impression that is created is that, I‟m told, in fact, you were

referring to blatant lies, “amanga aluhlaza”.



I think you have made your point by saying that the hon member gave

the House an untrue statement. If you are comfortable with it, I

would ask you just to withdraw the part of your; language...

[Interjections.] What is wrong with hon members; why do you get so

excited? It‟s not fair. We have been dealing with this thing of
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 26


disrespect for the Chair and it continues. Hon members, I think we

should rise to the occasion and be hon members.



In terms of isiZulu, there is nothing wrong in what the hon member

has said. She is not responsible for the poor interpretation

service. We are just requesting her, for the purpose of this

sitting, to withdraw if she is comfortable with that because she has

not said anything wrong in terms of her language. IsiZulu is one of

the 11 official languages. It is our problem, as Parliament, to make

sure that we have people who will give the right interpretation

service.



In the middle of a ruling – as happened yesterday – I have this

intervention. I think it is wrong and does not actually augur well

for some of us that you are so disrespectful. Any time when a person

interjects you are already intervening as if we here just don‟t even

have brains. I think that is disrespectful and I take this thing

very seriously. Hon members, I‟m getting annoyed, I must say. I

really take exception to this kind of behaviour, Mr Douglas, that

continuously as I try to make a ruling I will always be assisted

when I have actually said that when I seek assistance I will do so.

Thank you. Qhubeka-ke mama. [Continue, hon member.]



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank very much, Deputy Speaker, for

your ruling. But, before I withdraw, what I want to say is that the

languages we speak in South Africa are rich in idioms, proverbs and
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 27


expressions that may seem colourful to others who don‟t understand

these languages. So I would urge them to actually try and learn our

languages...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Much as I respect what you are saying, Deputy

Minister, I am going to take this as part of your allocated time.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you. I was responding to a

statement and I was interrupted on a point of order by a member

whose party says the ANC is stifling debate.



The issue that we were discussing yesterday on which we passed an

amendment is an issue that has been debated very widely in this

country. When we passed the law there was a very positive response

to it, not only from the members of this House, but also from a

large majority of women outside who were disadvantaged and

discriminated against in that they were not given the same right

that had been given for many, many years to white women in this

country.



The hon member said she wants a debate. I‟m saying that we‟ve had

the debate. We have passed the law and it is supported by a large

majority of South Africans.



However, having said that, I just want to say that, in terms of the

law that we passed and in terms of the policy of the ANC, clearly,
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 28


the ANC would not like to see a situation where children are

aborted. What we have said is that there are circumstances and

conditions under which women need to make an informed choice. This

is what this law is about. It says: Give them the information, give

them power and let them decide on what happens to their bodies.

We‟ve had this debate. The hon member comes with statistics from the

HSRC... [Time Expired.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Deputy Minister, the time has expired

now. There is time left for you to withdraw.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: What I would like though, Madam

Deputy Speaker, is to give the hon member an opportunity to come and

discuss issues that seem to continue to bother her. You know, we

can‟t impose our religious beliefs on this House or on the people of

South Africa.



Mr L M GREEN: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: There is a ruling

and the Minister must respond to it.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have given the ruling and I‟ll make sure that

before the Deputy Minister takes her seat she does exactly that. I

also want to advise Mrs Dudley and the Deputy Minister that I think

there is lot of talking that has to go on between the two of you

because the Minister is inviting you for a discussion. I think you

should take that opportunity.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 29




Now, Deputy Minister, will you please withdraw the phrase, “amanga

aluhlaza” [blatant lies].



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Deputy Speaker, I started

there...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I don‟t want a speech.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: I did withdraw it, it but I said.

...[Interjections.] I did. Anyway, what I said, and I repeat, is

that the richness of our African languages is that they are full of

idioms and proverbs. [Interjections.] But, for the sake of this

debate, I will withdraw what I said.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: The fact is that the member has

misled this House. I will make a statement if she wants me to make a

statement that will explain what I did say to this House, which she

is continuously misquoting, and she has misquoted it here as well.



Mrs C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: That retraction

was qualified and the Deputy Minister again said that I was

misleading the House, just as she misled the House about the

debate...
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                        PAGE: 30




The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There‟s nothing wrong with the phrase,

“misleading the House,” as long as people can substantiate what they

mean by saying that. The only thing that I wanted the Deputy

Minister to do was to withdraw the words, “amanga aluhlaza” [blatant

lies].



Mrs C DUDLEY: But she qualified her withdrawal. It needs to be an

unqualified withdrawal.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Deputy Minister, will you please withdraw those

words unconditionally, without qualifying your words.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Well, I withdraw them.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thanks.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: But I would still like to have an

opportunity ... [Interjections.] This is a different subject – I‟m

saying that I would still like an opportunity ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Deputy Minister, will you please respect the

Chair and the Chair‟s ruling.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Speaker, I said I withdraw it

unconditionally.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                          PAGE: 31




The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you. Before I was interrupted,

I was just explaining to the hon member that it is not right ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Deputy Minister, I thought I had ruled regarding

time. I did say your time had expired but I gave you time to respond

to the point of order that was raised, and you have done so. Thank

you very much.



                 NATIONAL SMALL BUSINESS AMENDMENT BILL



                        (Second Reading debate)



The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Madam Deputy Speaker and hon

members, in 1996 the National Small Business Act was promulgated for

the purpose of creating an institutional framework to implement the

government support strategy for small businesses. The Act allowed

for the establishment of Ntsika Enterprise Promotion Agency as a

national small business development agency, as well as the National

Small Business Council as an advocacy body for small businesses. The

principal Act was amended for the first time in 2003 to remove the

provisions of the National Small Business Council, which was

liquidated in 1999.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 32


In the last 10 years various reviews of the strategy for

implementation of small enterprise development support services were

conducted. The strategy reviewed and highlighted challenges that

arose during that period. These included the need to streamline the

institutional framework for small enterprise development so as to

eliminate or reduce duplication; achieve optimal use of existing

resources through an integrated service delivery network; maximise

the outreach and the impact of small enterprise development

programmes; achieve a coherent and comprehensive response to the

needs, capacities, opportunities of the small enterprise sector; and

to ensure that the roles of all stakeholders are well defined.



Against this background the Department of Trade and Industry

believes that the establishment of a new legal entity responsible

for implementing the government‟s 2004–14 small, medium and micro

enterprise strategy is in the public interest and will significantly

advance the all important and critical objectives of small and

medium enterprise development.



In the process of conceptualising the small enterprise development

agency, the department had consultations with a wide range of

stakeholders including the National Treasury, the Department of

Provincial and Local Government, MECs and provincial governments,

the boards of Ntsika and Namak, all general managers of provincial

manufacturing advisory centres as well as a range of small

enterprises and service providers in the different provinces.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 33




Proposals made at the hearings were also taken into consideration.

The primary objective of the establishment of the new entity is to

increase the capacity of government to deliver support services to

small enterprises in a manner that will improve programme outreach,

achieve our desired impact on small enterprises, provide a single

access point for small enterprise support, be inclusive of all

relevant stakeholders, leverage resources and service delivery, and

align it with government strategy of integrated service delivery.



The Bill is intended to amend the National Small Business Act so as

to repeal all provisions pertaining to Ntsika Enterprise Promotion

Agency; to provide for the establishment of the Small Enterprise

Development Agency, or Seda, as a juristic person; to make provision

for the incorporation of Ntsika Enterprise Promotion Agency, the

national manufacturing advise centres and any designated institution

into the agency to be established; and also to provide for the

necessary transitional arrangements to this effect.



The Seda will be established with the purpose of implementing

government policy for small enterprise development. It will

therefore be responsible for designing and implementing enterprise

development support programmes of a nonfinancial nature, develop a

service delivery network that will increase the contribution of

small enterprises to the South African economy, oversee the

functioning of the institution and ensure that it remains aligned
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 34


with national priorities. A board of directors, consisting of not

less than seven members and not more than 15 members, will be

appointed by the Minister of Trade and Industry. The board will

serve for a period of three years after having obtained approval

from Cabinet.



The chief executive officer of Seda will be appointed by the

Minister of Trade and Industry on the boards recommendation. To

ensure that the new institution is adequately resourced so that it

is able to deliver on its mandate, its funds will consist of money

appropriated by Parliament, grants, donations, bequests and money

lawfully obtained from other sources. The CEO will be the accounting

officer and the Auditor-General will audit the accounts and the

balance sheet.



To ensure co-ordinated service delivery, the Bill provides for the

design and implementation of a standard and common national delivery

network that will be uniformly applied throughout the Republic in

respect of small enterprise development, integrating all

government-funded small enterprise support agencies across all

spheres of government. The agency will also establish provincial

structures to ensure the effective implementation of its functions

at provincial level.



It is important to ensure that the agency remains accountable to and

in touch with all its stakeholders and beneficiaries. To this effect
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                        PAGE: 35


the Bill requires the board to hold consultative meetings with

beneficiaries, provincial representatives and other relevant

stakeholders, at least once a year to discuss the functions and

performance of the agency.



I would like to thank the members of the portfolio committee for

their inputs and speedy consideration, processing and support for

this Bill. I thank you, Deputy Speaker.



Mr B A D MARTINS: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon members, in keeping with

the developmental agenda of the ANC government to broaden and

stimulate economic participation, and in accordance with His

Excellency the President‟s announcement in his state of the nation

address in May this year, the Bill before the House today provides

the legal framework to merge Ntsika and the National Manufacturing

Advisory Centre to create the new Small Enterprise Development

Agency.



Furthermore, in line with the ANC‟s   contract with the people to

fight unemployment and poverty and to create work, the government

seeks to promote sustainable, decent work for all through a range of

immediate interventions, which include small enterprise promotion

and development.



The main objective for the establishment of the Small Enterprise

Development Agency is to increase the capacity of the government to
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 36


deliver support services to small enterprises in a manner that will,

amongst other factors, eliminate the poor co-ordination of small

enterprises and improve programme outreach and service delivery;

secondly, provide single access points for small enterprise support;

thirdly, reduce the costs of service delivery; and fourthly,

eliminate the duplication in service delivery.



The Portfolio Committee, in keeping with its oversight mandate,

looks forward to seeing the Small Enterprise Development Agency

providing greater levels of business support to small enterprises,

and also playing an important role in improving the capabilities of

small enterprises, as it will be primarily responsible for

implementing the government‟s 2004–14, small, medium and micro

enterprises strategy.



Whilst it is a fact that unemployment and poverty remain major

challenges in South Africa, it is also important to note the

government‟s approach to these challenges. Two fundamental

strategies underpin the government‟s approach: firstly, the

government seeks to increase economic growth so that the number of

net new jobs being created will begin to exceed the number of new

entrants into the labour market; and secondly, to improve the

education system so that the workforce is able to take up the

largely skilled work opportunities economic growth will generate.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                        PAGE: 37


In pursuance of these critical objectives, the core function and

focus of the Department of Trade and Industry is to promote job

creation, economic growth and equality. It is in this context that

small enterprise promotion in general, and the development of black-

owned small enterprises in particular, remain crucial components of

job creation in the economy.



This will require a number of measures, including, amongst other

things, access to capital and ongoing entrepreneurial training. As

South Africa remains an integral part of the global competitive

economy, it is thus necessary for us as a developing nation to

ensure that our enterprises, both big and small, are able to compete

effectively. The ANC supports the passage of this Bill. I thank you.

[Applause.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, before we continue with the debate

I want the House to join me in congratulating Mr Ben Martins who has

added an LL M-qualification to the many degrees that he has.

[Applause.] I happened to be close to him when the University of

Cape Town confirmed that information yesterday.   [Applause.]



Dr E NKEM-ABONTA: Madam Deputy Speaker, the background section of

the Bill details a number of problems that the Small Enterprise

Development Agenda, Seda, will have to address. Among these are,

widespread regional and local differences in policy absorption and a

weak entrepreneurial culture in the country.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 38




It is thus clear that the Bill seeks to lay the basis for the

establishment of a single small business support agency and to co-

ordinate and integrate the myriad of small business support agencies

and programmes that exist in our country. The DA has repeatedly

called for this. Accordingly, it will welcome any initiative by

government to streamline, co-ordinate and integrate small business

support service delivery into a coherent and effectual strategy.

Thus, to the extent that the Bill does this, it has the support of

the DA.



Unfortunately, the Bill has too centralist a flavour containing

prescripts that could stifle local initiative and innovation.

Happily, the word “tier”, used in an earlier draft, has been

replaced by “sphere” at the DA‟s insistence, but that it featured at

all in a proposed piece of legislation fills my chest with angst. It

certainly was a sleight of hand, a Freudian slip and an irreverent

poke in the eye of our intergovernmental arrangement - a sleight of

hand because it sought to bring in the centralisation of power

through the back door; a Freudian slip because it revealed

unwittingly the national government‟s intention to foist a unitary

system on an unsuspecting citizenry; and an irreverence because it

was contemptuous of our Constitution.



My concern is, of course, more than semantic. It goes beyond what

some in this House might consider a non est. I am concerned that all
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 39


subnational spheres of government - provincial and local - will have

to toe the line. None can, not even with own resources or an

equitable share, implement programmes best suited to their local

conditions. Realpolitik and expediency might perhaps require

Parliament to divest the provincial sphere of its constitutional, if

residual, discretionary power over its own revenue and equitable

share.



The national government has already done this, and posterity will

judge whether expediency is a valid reason for tinkering with

legislation. The Bill poses the danger that it might emasculate and

lock the local sphere into a centralist straightjacket, which will

be manifestly unconscionable. For one thing, it will defeat the very

raison d’être of local government. In fact, our Constitution

envisions an entrepreneurial local government, and for this reason

it grants a much greater degree of autonomy than a provincial

administration.



It is true that the Constitution requires all three spheres of

government to co-operate, but there must be something suspicious

about co-operation if it results from legislation and not from free

will. For most of our municipalities much of local economic

development, Led, is about small business development. If the Bill

becomes law a mayor of a municipality, in so far as his or her Led

programme relates to small business development, will have to be

answerable to a bureaucrat in Pretoria, not his or her electorate. I
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 40


doubt that this was ever the intention of the framers of our world-

famous Constitution.



Moreover, the Bill does not address the challenge of widespread

regional and local differences in policy absorption, which, it

rightly points out, calls for a more bottom-up approach. The

centralisation not just of policy-making but also of implementation,

far from being a bottom-up approach, represents a top-bottom

approach par excellence; nor does the Bill signal a strong strategic

commitment to promoting an entrepreneurial culture. It does not even

assign Seda the promotion of an entrepreneurial culture as a

strategic objective. Job creation, equity and suchlike enjoy this

privilege. [Time expired.] [Applause.]



Ms E S CHANG: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon members, it is well known

that small businesses are a highway to wealth creation, asset

ownership and economic growth. In order for SMMEs to thrive and

succeed there is a need for risk capital, but coupled with financial

viability. There has to be social benefits, profitability and

sustainability of these SMMEs.



SMMEs cannot be subjected to a one-size-fits-all approach, as they

need to have measurable outcomes. I want to stress the fact that

enterprises must be owned by the community, especially by women and

the disabled. The IFP believes that it is critical that the vision
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 41


and objectives of the agency become real. In essence, we need to

ensure that these structures work for our people.



Let us not forget that the debate affects the whole economic debate

and the whole debate on poverty. Finance marketing, management

skills and technological skills are four vital elements that are

needed for any business to succeed.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, please take your seat. Hon

members, she has not completed her speech. I don‟t think that you

even heard what she was saying. Hon members, have those

conversations, but please be mindful that there is business before

the House because I can‟t even hear the hon member. Will you please

continue.



Ms E S CHANG: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I am trying to speak louder

so that I can cover their voices. We believe that the government is

on the right track and is making progress with regard to these four

elements and that this will assist in increasing productivity, as

well as reducing the costs that businesses incur. This will lead to

greater success for small businesses.



The recent actions of the Industrial Development Corporation, or

IDC, must be applauded for their positive approach to their

subsidiary, Forskor. Not only have they increased the loan to

Forskor from R99, 5 million to R544 million, but the IDC has also
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 42


converted this loan from a 14,6% interest-bearing loan to a zero-

interest loan. This is a positive move from the IDC in preventing

job losses. The government could perhaps take a leaf out of this

book.



If SMMEs are to survive and thrive costs have to be reduced. At the

moment SMMEs have to pay interest at 17% to 29% per annum on their

loans. This is a heavy burden for poor people who desperately need

our help.



Dear hon Minister, these SMMEs - particularly women, disabled people

and people from rural areas - are in need of some sort of incentive

scheme. Should they be exempt from paying the loan application and

yearly renewal fee? Should the interest rates be reduced, or could

they maybe be exempt for a period of at least three to five years?

This is the period in which small businesses are most vulnerable and

still finding their feet in our very competitive global market. With

positive government agency support SMMEs will be the future of our

country, the Republic of South Africa. The IFP supports the amending

Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]



Mr M STEPHENS: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon Minister and hon members, I

must say that I am surprised that the DA finds it necessary to heap

irrelevant vituperation on this Bill. It seems that if they fail to

find real points to criticise, they are forced to put up their own

dummies to shoot down.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 43




The establishment of the Small Enterprise Development Agency is an

important new initiative in the development of small enterprises in

the country. Neither Ntsika nor Namac realised anywhere near their

full potential for assisting the growth of small businesses. It is

trusted that the amalgamation of their functions and efforts in the

new agency will achieve what they did not.



The amendment of the name of the main Act to that of the National

Small Enterprise Act also signifies a welcome new approach to

economic activity in the country. The Bill moves away from the

narrow perception of economic activity as being essentially

business. It widens the horizons of the agency to include a much

greater array of economically valuable associations of people.



It is in many ways thus a precursor of legislation that is yet to

come. It foresees the co-operative movement, which will gain much

momentum during next year, and it recognises the valid and valuable

economic roles of NGOs and CBOs. The UDM supports the Bill as

amended by the committee. I thank you. [Applause.].



Ms N P KHUNOU: Chairperson, Deputy Speaker, Ministers, Deputy

Ministers and hon members of Parliament, the National Small Business

Amendment Bill, which is to amend the National Small Business Act of

1996, is an important piece of legislation. It incorporates Ntsika

Enterprises Promotion Agency and the National Manufacturing Advisory
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                        PAGE: 44


Centre, Namac, into a new agency called the Small Enterprise

Development Agency, Seda.



Ntsika‟s mission was to render nonfinancial support services to the

SMMEs. Some of its key functions were entrepreneurship, development,

marketing and business development services. Most SMMEs complained

about the inefficiency of this agency. Although it delivered it was

ineffective because most SMMEs were not developed. On the other

hand, Namac‟s role was to supply high quality advisory and

information services to new and existing SMMEs to ensure improvement

in their quality, competitiveness and productivity.



The merger of these two agencies into Seda will reduce costs and

eliminate duplication in service delivery, as this has always been

our concern in the committee. It will improve access points in local

communities, as Seda will be based in all nine provinces. It will

also improve the impact of service delivery networks and

accessibility, and I am passionate about this matter.



This initiative by the government is highly appreciated. That is why

we all need to support this Bill. The ANC is committed to reducing

poverty, encouraging growth and promoting equality. The President,

in his state of the nation address, said that Namac and Ntsika would

be merged into a single agency. He also said that we needed to

bridge the gap between the first and second economy. The ANC is
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 45


committed to its people‟s contract and halving unemployment and

poverty by 2014.



It has been proven by many countries in the world that SMMEs help to

create jobs and increase GDP. In South Africa small business absorb

more than half of the people formally employed in the private sector

and contribute about 42% of this country‟s GDP.

Presently, in Malaysia the small and medium industries account for

more than 80% of the total manufacturing establishment in that

country. In Singapore small and medium enterprises have played an

important role in that country‟s economic development. They employ

about half of the working population and contribute close to a third

of total value added. In Thailand the SMMEs create millions of jobs,

generate additional income that is significant to many poor and

disadvantaged families, and generate a high proportion of their

countries‟ wealth.



My colleague, Dr Nkem-Abonta of the DA, said he had never heard of

any businessperson opening a company to create jobs. This proves to

me that his party is always blindfolded and refuses to see growth

and development in this country. [Interjections.]



Enterprise development is key in this department. It shows the

commitment of the department regarding business and growth in the

South African economy and the creation of jobs. The Department of

Trade and Industry has certain sectors and youth internship
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 46


programmes in its information and communication technology

strategies. This was started in May 2002 and aims to reduce youth

unemployment and create ITC skills. We need to have more skills

development and the youth should take part.



The annual report of the Department of Trade and Industry 2002-03

lists 835 SMMEs, and 223 of these are black-owned. We need to see

more improvement. There are 180 women-owned businesses and two for

the disabled. That is very good. If you teach a child you invest in

the future, and if you educate a woman you educate a nation.



The committee has stringent measures relating to the operation of

the board because we don‟t want to see challenges anymore. We want

to see SMMEs developing. When the Minister appoints the board the

members must have business knowledge and experience in trade,

industry and finance. This is a non-negotiable issue. The board must

at least once a year hold consultative meetings with its

stakeholders, beneficiaries and provincial representatives to

discuss activities and the performance of the agency. We also had

public hearings, and the contributions of Cosatu were helpful. This

is our commitment to equality and job creation.



Fa ke feleletsa, ke ratile gore Tona ya Lefapha ke lona le le

tlhopang Boroto. Ka jalo o nale matla a go tlosa leloko la Boroto fa

le sa fitlhelele dintlha tsotlhe tse di umakilweng mo karolong

13(c). O tshwanetsi go dira se morago ga go buisana le Boroto.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 47


Redumellane re le ANC gore Boroto le Tona ke bona ba ba tshwanetsing

go kgeta CEO e e tla tshwarang marapo dingwaga tse tlhano. Molao o

fa pele ga rona, re o lebeletse ka matlho a bolegileng re le ANC.



Ke batla go feleletsa ka gore a pula ele nele lotlhe. Fa re boa

ongwageng o tlang, a re ne melomo ya bao ba ba sa kgoneng go

ipuelela. Ke a leboga. [Legofi.] (Translation of Tswana paragraphs

follows.)



[In conclusion, the Minister appoints the board. He has the power to

remove a member who does not abide by the rules as set out in

section 13 (c). He must do this after having consulted the board. We

agreed as the ANC that the board and the Minister are the ones who

are supposed to appoint the CEO, who will hold the position for five

years. The Bill before us will be looked at critically by the ANC.



I wish to end by wishing everyone well. When we return next year,

let us be the spokespersons for those who are unable to speak for

themselves. I thank you. [Applause.]]



Mr A HARDING: Mr Chair, the previous National Small Business Act

provided the impetus to incorporate small business activities into

the mainstream of the economy. Subsequent to this we have seen many

changes in SMME strategy because many entrepreneurs did not receive

adequate and relevant products and services delivered by the various
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                          PAGE: 48


DTI agencies. Part of the problem is that many of the initiatives

were supply-driven and not what the target market needed. As a

result we have seen poor performances by Ntsika and other agencies.



The amending Bill makes provision for the establishment of the Small

Enterprise Development Agency, which essentially is a merger of

Ntsika and Namac Trust. Through this agency‟s support measures it is

envisaged that small business will be competitive internationally

and that nonfinancial support services rendered through

intermediaries will be streamlined.



The agency, once operational, should immediately address problems of

fragmentation, duplication and resource scarcity linked to a defined

delivery mandate. The ID supports the amending Bill.



Mr K D S DURR: Chairman, Minister, when we deal with small business

we must keep it simple and get the basics right. We support the

legislation, but I think it is good that we should get back to

basics. The basics are social stability, honesty and reliability, a

free market and access to capital at relatively low interest rates,

which means low inflation - small business can‟t support micro-

lending rates, Minister – a fair legal system that recognises and

can enforce contracts and protect physical and intellectual rights,

and the teaching and fostering of entrepreneurship.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 49


Stimulating small business isn‟t rocket science. The techniques are

well understood. The principle is that if we cannot help people, we

must not hinder them. Our ability to help is limited. We need to

protect freedom and provide security everywhere.



Minister, the First World economy of this country didn‟t grow under

heavy regulation, it grew under deregulation. The old Transvaal was

cowboy country and almost anything went. So the same is true about

other economies. We can‟t now stifle the Second World at birth with

overregulation. [Time expired.]



Mr M T LIKOTSI: Chairperson, the African small businessmen selling

or producing mala-mohodu and tjontjobina farming were excited when

Ntsika Enterprise Promotion Agency was formed during the

promulgation of the National Small Business Act in 1996. They

thought things were going to change for the best. The changing of

names alone does not solve our root problems in small business.

Local business centres supported by both Ntsika and Khula did not

bring about a change of fortune to small business.



Four years ago a local business service centre in Botshabelo, Free

State, changed its name to Botshabelo Entrepreneurial Development

Centre. Both the Free State and Flemish government, including Shell

Petroleum, supported the project. Equipment for panel beating and

spray-painting, wheel alignment and balancing worth R1,5 million was

purchased. Today, it lies unused. The Central University of
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 50


Technology in the Free State was roped in later, but with no

success. [Time expired.] Otherwise, we support this Bill.



Mr S J MAJA: Chairperson and hon members, today we are introducing

the National Small Business Amendment Bill. The Minister of Trade

and Industry, the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Trade

and Industry, and the hon Khunou have already indicated the aims of

the Bill, that it is meant to try and improve the structures of

service delivery to our people, especially in the previously

disadvantaged areas.



We recognise the fact that Ntsika has not delivered to the maximum

requirements. The Bill therefore repeals the provision pertaining to

Ntsika Enterprise Promotion Agency, and provides for the

establishment of the Small Enterprise Development Agency. It also

makes provision for the incorporation of Ntsika and Namac.



Modulasetulo, ANC e re bophelo bjo bo kaone mo batho ba dulago gona.

Ntsika e be e sa kgone go fihlelela batho ba rena gabotse fase, ka

kudu makeišeneng a rena a bathobaso le dinagamagaeng. Go a tsebagala

gore mo go dulago batho ba ga bo rena, bophelo bjo bo kaone ga bo a

hlwa bo ba fihlelela gabotse, kage seemo sa gona se sa hlwa se re

kgotsofatša. Mmušo wa peleng wa kgatelelo, o hlokišitše mafelo a re

bolelago ka ona gore ditirelo di be gona, le gore bophelo bjo bo

kaone bo be gona. Meetse, mehlagase, thuto ye kaone, kabelo ya
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 51


mengwako, le tša boitšhidillo le tše dingwe tše re di tsebago, ga sa

hlwe di enela ka mokgwa wa tshwanelo.



Seo o bego o se tseba ka kudu, e be e le gore ba ikemišeditše fela

go ka šala bao ba rego bona ke balwela-tokologo morago. Ge re dutše

re kitimišana re ngangišana le bona, ba butše nthoba ka mo bosenyi

ke bjo bogolo. Ke bona ba re baketšego mathata, ke bona ba baketšego

mafelo a mathata, kage ba be ba sa a hlokomele.



Dikgwebopotlana tšeo di lego gona mo makeišeneng a go se hlokomelwe

le dinagamagae tšeo e lego gore ga ba ka ba di šetša, ge

rakgwebopotlana a nyaka go šomiša thekenolotši ya sejwalejwale, kage

mohlagase o se gona, o tlo šitwa. Dithekenolotši tša bjale dikolong

tša rena moo bana ba rena ba swanetšego ke go ka di šomiša, le gona

ba šitwa gore ba ka di šomiša.



Bao ba boletšego pele gaka magagešo ba laeditše gore maikemišetšo

magolo a go phetlolla Molawana wo le go o fetola, ke gore ditirelo

di kgone go fihla ga bonolo setšhabeng. Ntsika le Namec di tlile ka

rena, ra bona gore ga di fihlelele batho ka mokgwa woo re nyakago ka

gona, kege rena gape re bowa, re phetlolla gore di kopane di kgone

go direla batho tše ba di nyakago.



Kage ba tla be ba fihlelela metse ya magaeng ga bonolo, le mafelo ao

e lego kgale a gateletšwe, bao ba nyakago go dira dikgwebo ba tla

holega le kgwebo tšeo di bego di goga ka sefega, di tla holega. Ba
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 52


tla ruta batho ba gore naa kgwebo e dira bjang, e sepedišiwa bjang,

pele ba ka kgona go ba adima mašeleng a gore ba itirele dikgwebo.

Digole, baswa, basadi le ba bangwe, ba tla holega ka temana ye. Le

bawo ba rekišago ditseleng le mekgotheng, le ba bangwe gape bao ba

bapatšago mebele ba gwebago ka yona, le bona ba tla holega ba

tlogela go ka gweba ka mebele, ba hwetša tše bonolo tšeo e lego gore

ba tla itirela dikgwebo tša bona.



Mmušo wa ANC o išitše ditirelo tše dintši tše kgolo setšhabeng ka

mengwaga ye lesome, go feta ka mokgwa wo mmušo wo wa go feta o ileng

wa di iša ka gona makgolo a mararo a mengwaga, ba šita ke go phetha

ditirelo tše di kago go tlala seatla. Ge mmušo wa ANC o iša ditirelo

metseng, mekgatlo ya rena ya kganetšo yeo e lego ka letsogong le,

... [Nako e fedile.] Ke a leboga ANC e thekga Molawana wo.

(Translation of Pedi paragraphs follows.)



[Chairperson, the ANC wants a better life for our people where they

stay. Ntsika was unable to reach our people properly, especially in

the townships and rural areas. It is well known that where our

people reside, a better life has not yet reached them, as the

situation is not yet satisfactory. The previous oppressive

government denied a better life and services to people in these

places that we are talking about. Water, electricity, better

education, housing distribution, gymnastic equipment and other

things that we know, are not yet there.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 53


What the previous government knew well was to let those who were

freedom fighters suffer. While we are running after them and arguing

with them there is a big hole on the other side and crime is

worsening. They are the ones who caused problems for us; they are

the ones who caused problems for these places, as they were

careless.



Small businesses that are there in the townships and rural areas are

being ignored, and when the business owner wants to use modern

technology, he or she will fail, as there is no electricity. In our

schools, where our children are supposed to use this modern

technology, they are failing to use it as there is no electricity.



Those who spoke before me, my people, have shown that the main aim

of changing this Bill is for services to reach people easily. Ntsika

and Namec were formed by us, and we have realised they do not reach

the people as much as we want them to, and so we have come back

again and changed this so that they can come together, and so that

they can serve the people.



As they will be reaching rural areas easily, and other places that

have been oppressed for too long, those who want to do business will

benefit and the businesses that were struggling will benefit. They

will teach these people how to run a business before they lend them

money to start their own business. Disabled people, the youth, women

and other people will benefit through this. And street vendors and
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 54


others that are advertising their bodies, prostitutes, will benefit

and stop prostitution, and find easier things to start their own

businesses with.



The ANC-led government has brought a huge amount of services to the

nation in a decade, more than the previous government did in three

hundred years; they only fail to deliver just a few services. When

the ANC government brings services to communities, our opposition

parties, on the other hand ... [Time expired.] Thank you; the ANC

supports the Bill.]



The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Thank you very much, Chair. I

would like to thank all the members for participating in the debate,

and for their support of the Bill.



There are just a few issues that I think it is important to respond

to. The hon Nkem-Abonta, I do not know if he is still here, makes

the assertion that the Bill has a centralist flavour. I want to

remind him of an issue I raised in the NCOP earlier this year,

during the Budget Vote debate, where I said that we have seen the

proliferation of a lot of investment promotion agencies across the

three spheres of government.



I asked the question then: Where do investors who want to invest,

let us say in Coega, go? Do they go to the Department of Trade and

Industry, the Coega Development Corporation, or the Eastern Cape
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                          PAGE: 55


department of economic affairs? The point was raised that we need to

streamline the way in which we deliver those kinds of services.



This Bill also makes reference to the need for us to deliver

services in an integrated way. It speaks more to the way in which we

must function, rather than taking away the powers that are

constitutionally assigned to local authorities. It is important to

understand that distinction. This body, Seda, is a national board

that we are establishing, but it is going to be highly decentralised

in the way that it is going to function, because the idea is that we

must create access points for our people in a whole range of

localities.



This entity is going to function through a network of NGOs and other

service providers. So to create an impression that this is some

structure that will sit in Pretoria, and that people will have to go

to Pretoria in order to get information about and support for small

enterprises is really not what is intended in the Bill.



Debate concluded.



Bill read a second time.



 CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS –

              HEARINGS ON ADVERTISING AND MARKETING INDUSTRY
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 56


Ms M SMUTS: Chairperson, this exercise was started three years ago

by the previous chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on

Communications, because there was some evidence to show that

advertising spend was not reaching audiences with all of the right

income and other credentials, when those audiences were seen as

black. Media planners therefore simply did not know them and they

didn‟t receive the ad spend that they ought to have done. In other

words, the market mechanism on the face of it was not operating as

it should have.



A lot of work and time has gone into considering all the relevant

factors in the marketing and advertising value chain of industries.

There have been benefits from this process, interestingly especially

in respect of government‟s role as an advertiser. At the start of

this process government tended to use traditional media instead of

always reaching the right audiences. It has also been discovered

that the way that government departments handle advertising tenders

tends to impact negatively on small emerging black companies.



So, there have been benefits and we certainly do not object, as is

proposed in the report, if government reports annually to us on

transformative practices. But it is time to leave the private sector

industries alone, so that they can go and help grow the economy,

which is what they are there for and we are not really strictly here

to exercise oversight over them.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 57


I must say that there are signs of real transformation fatigue

setting in. The advertising industry has put a scorecard in place

and they say that it is quite frankly not the time to wait for yet

another broader scorecard. The marketers are the ones who are blamed

for not co-operating, but it is their money to advertise their

products that we are talking about for which they want to see

returns, and quite rightly so. And in addition they form part of

bigger organisations, which also have other obligations under the

finance charter and the ICT charter and so forth.



It seems to me there just isn‟t enough time and energy to go around

for all the transformation obligations as well as to make the

economy grow. There are also simultaneously signs that some

participants in this process are, in my view, beginning to think

that they can interfere in the free operation of the market

mechanism, which was not what we set out to do, to achieve their own

ends - social ends, economic ends, political ends - and that will

not do.



When I asked the GCIS CEO, Mr Joel Netshitendzhe, what he thought of

the Department of Communications‟ commissioned research that

measured ad spend against audience colour, I was very relieved when

he said that content determines target. Then your advertising is

efficacious and it reaches the target market. Let‟s all agree that

that is the way it should be and I suggest that we now leave the
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 58


industries to get on with their work and to help grow this economy.

Thank you. [Applause.]



Ms S C VOS: Chairperson and colleagues, the IFP is fully committed

to social and economic transformation throughout South Africa. The

IFP, along with all citizens who have a conscience and a sense of

social justice, supports policies and programmes that will

constructively address the imbalances and the socio-economic

distortions caused by apartheid.



The IFP also, as one of its founding principles, supports free

enterprise. We believe that it is only an enterprise-driven economy

that can fundamentally assist in helping us to achieve the

transformation we all seek.



So it is in this context that the IFP approaches the content and the

context of this report relating to the advertising and marketing

industries. The IFP is sensitive to the complexity of these

industries and we acknowledge and applaud the attempts made to date

to right the obvious wrongs and to attend to the training and

representation required within their ranks. And we applaud the

outstanding creative talent these industries reflect throughout what

is called their value chain.



We therefore can only hope that the very individual creativity which

drives these industries can be applied by its practitioners to
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 59


creatively ensure growth and development, while being sensitive to

the obvious transformation we all - industry members included - wish

to see emerging sooner rather than later. Thank you. [Applause.]



Mr V C GORE: Chairperson and hon members, the ID is a party that is

committed to transformation bridging the divides that were created

because of the legacy of apartheid and realising the full potential

of this country. As such we are fully in support of any initiative

that is geared towards realising these ideals, and in particular the

initiatives of the transformation of the marketing and advertising

industry.



The ID encourages organisations, institutions, and in this case,

sectors of our community to deal with the problem directly and

transform by themselves. Government has an active and monitoring

role to play in these processes. They should encourage through their

position of advantage of ability to spend large amounts of money on

ad placement.



In addition, where industry fails to self-regulate and transform,

government has a responsibility to become more actively involved,

but only after - and I stress only after - the industry has been

given a chance to change. One area of concern for the ID in this

current transformation process is the lack of attention and almost a

complete failure to deal with women and people with disabilities. I

thank you.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 60




Mr M K LEKGORO: Thank you, Chair. The people of South Africa have

ushered in a new political order. In 1994 they gave government a

resounding mandate that their lives in all spheres of endeavour must

change for the better. In accepting the mandate we had at the outset

acknowledged that through their popular vote we had only achieved

political freedom.



The dawn of that freedom marked the beginning of a long walk to

redoing the economic landscape of the country. Issues of equal

salary for equal work, black personnel in management, executive

positions and issues of ownership came to the fore. That is the

reason the transformation of all industries is a topical issue in

our society today.



In locating today‟s discussion within that ongoing mandate from our

people, the question before us is: Has the marketing and advertising

industry transformed in line with our national mandate? The

intention of the committee, in bringing this matter to the House, is

to put this industry in the public spotlight so that the electorate

can be our judges as we continue to seek transformation in this

industry.



This is an industry that goes to the core of the values of our

society. What they produce and put out to the public tells us who we

are. It tells us how we are socialised as a people. In short, it
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 61


depicts our norms and values. The world sees us through what this

industry depicts. So, connected to the transformation of this

industry is the desire that it must tell a true South African story,

as opposed to an American or a European story imposed as if it‟s our

own.



Our portfolio committee has since 2001, through a response to the

complaints about patterns of advertising spending, sought to

interact with the industry by urging it that, in light of the new

dispensation, it cannot be business as usual in our country. We did

so well aware that there are no statutory instruments at our

disposal to impose any change in this industry.



However, we honestly held the opinion that South Africans in all

their endeavours from across all racial lines would in all

probability embrace change. It was in that spirit that we have over

the years engaged with the industry.



We are comforted by the fact that at least on the theoretical level

members of the industry, through their representatives, express

their appreciation that in order to meet the expectations of

consumers in the modern-day South Africa, the industry has to

transform. What still remains to be seen is the actual act of the

industry transforming.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 62


Some amongst us have warned that we are being overoptimistic in

imagining that an industry rooted in the past and driven by profits

can willingly transform itself. We take that caution very seriously,

and hope that for the sake of us all we achieve the desired results.



We are able to report that the industry, since our interaction, has

put together a values statement embodying the values and goals of

transformation; that a monitoring and steering committee, with

representatives from the industry bodies across the advertising and

marketing value chain, including both the public and the private

sector, was established to lead the transformation process; and that

a process has been initiated towards the establishment of an

industry-wide broad-based black economic empowerment scorecard that

will provide a common framework for the whole of the value chain.



Further, there has been an improvement in the relation between the

pattern of expenditure and the composition of media audiences, more

so in the case of government advertising. The top 10 advertising

agencies have set remarkable benchmarks for black economic

empowerment, with some having upped the stakes to 51% and more.

Sadly, this impressive movement is lacking in the creative area and

media planning, for example.



As much as we can attest to movement from one form to the other, on

behalf of the committee we wish to submit that the industry could do

more and better. Coming from different political persuasions in this
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                          PAGE: 63


House, we might not agree on what transformation is, the pace at

which it should happen and how far we could stretch it.



Classical liberals, as they are known in contemporary politics - and

who, by the way, lest we forget, in the terminology of our movement

are referred to as reactionaries - will continue to say that we must

leave these processes to the market. We must simply treat their

concerns as immaterial. The material issue is that there are people,

and for that matter the majority of the people, who mandated us to

change their lives for the better.



Thus we wish to take this opportunity to urge the industry to do

everything in its power to forge ahead and take strides in this

transformation process. And finally we wish to serve notice that we

have no intention of burdening our next generations with the

inequalities of this industry. This transformation must happen and

be achieved in our lifetime. I thank you. [Applause.]



Debate concluded.



The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, we move

that the Report be adopted.



Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).



                    Report accordingly adopted.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 64




PROTECTION OF CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRACY AGAINST TERRORIST AND RELATED

                          ACTIVITIES BILL



           (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)



The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson and colleagues, the

hon members of this House, the short title of this Bill speaks about

the protection of our constitutional democracy. It is therefore no

surprise that the drafting processes, which led to the product that

is before the House for consideration, reflect exactly those values

as enshrined in the Constitution.



Even the consideration of the Bill last week by the NCOP in

Empangeni in KwaZulu-Natal, as part of the project to bring

Parliament to the people, was a most fitting step towards the

conclusion of the constitutional processes. I must say that it was

the most vibrant experience to address the House in KZN, with so

many people from the province itself in the gallery.



Today, therefore, we can truly say that with the consultation on and

drafting of the Bill, we let the people speak. But more than that,

we can truly say that government had listened to the people.



The nature and the topic of this Bill, viewed against the backdrop

of our country‟s history, was enough reason to be cautious and to
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 65


expect some form of vigilance from our people on what should be

contained in the Bill. How can we forget that our own struggle for

the liberation of our people was referred to as terrorism?



Clearly this Bill is expected to reflect in all respects the values

and principles in our nascent democracy, whilst at the same time to

provide the necessary tools for law enforcement to protect those

very democratic values and principles.



When we embarked on a process to draft counterterrorism legislation

for the Republic we knew that it would not be and easy process, in

view of the history of security legislation under the apartheid

regime that institutionalised third-degree interrogation, indefinite

detention without trial, the banning of organisations, restrictions

on the media, banning of persons and severe restrictions on

gatherings and demonstrations; and of course you will remember that

even funerals fell under that category.



That is therefore the reason that the Bill followed the elaborate

consultation processes through the South African Law Reform

Commission, elaborate public hearings and every other step in the

parliamentary process. The concerns raised regarding the Bill ranged

from objections against its name - as you remember it was initially

referred to as The Anti-Terrorism Bill - to some political and

religious concerns. The labour federation Cosatu was worried the

Bill might interfere with the exercising of their constitutional
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                        PAGE: 66


rights related to industrial action. There were also concerns from

the media that the Bill might suppress their freedom.



We have listened to each and every voice and every possible step was

taken to address every legitimate and reasonable concern. This was

our attitude, not only in the processes and Parliament. We also

engaged people outside of those processes to give as many as

possible role-players an opportunity to discuss whatever concerns

they had.



During the South African Law Reform Commission processes, the number

and variety of persons and institutions commenting on the discussion

paper and draft Bill reflected the wide interest on the matter.

Responses to the discussion paper of the Law Commission were

received from the judiciary, the magistracy, side-bar societies, the

National Prosecuting Authority, attorneys, advocates, human rights

organisations, government departments, religious organisations and

other organisations, and from no less than 62 individuals.



Not only respondents who were interested in doing so, but numerous

others were allowed - during the elaborate public hearings of the

Portfolio Committee for Safety and Security, assisted by the Joint

Standing Committee on Intelligence, the finance committee, the

foreign affairs committee and the justice and constitution affairs

committee - to air their views and concerns with the widest possible

media coverage. Some persons and institutions even had several bites
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                          PAGE: 67


at the cherry by appearing before the committee, wearing different

hats and representing different institutions or organisations.



Also in the NCOP the utmost leniency was evident during

deliberations, by again listening to practical concerns voiced even

at a very late stage. Let it be to our credit that we have done

everything humanly possible to meet all reasonable concerns

regarding the Bill.



I wish to thank members of this House again for the valuable role

they played in finalising the text of the Bill. I am convinced that

we have obtained the best possible version of the Bill, enabling the

Republic to comply with our international and national obligations

in respect of combating terrorism.



I also wish to thank the Office of the Leader of Government

Business, the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional

Affairs, the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security and this

House for ensuring that this Bill is being finalised during the

present session of Parliament.



I move that the House approves the report of the Portfolio Committee

on Safety and Security and adopt the Protection of Constitutional

Democracy against Terrorist and Related Activities Bill. Thank you.

[Applause.]
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                        PAGE: 68


There was no debate.



The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move

that the Bill, as amended by the Committee on Safety and Security,

be passed.



Motion agreed to.



Bill accordingly passed.




              DRAFT NOTICE FOR DECLARATION OF AMNESTY



              (Consideration of Request for Approval)



There was no debate.



Draft Notice for Declaration of Amnesty approved.



DRAFT NOTICE AND SCHEDULE DETERMINING THE RATE AT WHICH SALARIES ARE

  PAYABLE TO CONSTITUTIONAL COURT JUDGES AND JUDGES ANNUALLY, WITH

                       EFFECT FROM 1 APRIL 2004



               Consideration of Request for Approval)



There was no debate.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                        PAGE: 69




Draft notice and schedule determining the rate at which salaries are

payable to Constitutional Court judges and judges annually with

effect from 1 April 2004 approved.



DRAFT NOTICE AND SCHEDULE DETERMINING THE RATE AT WHICH SALARIES ARE

   PAYABLE TO MAGISTATES ANNUALLY, WITH EFFECT FROM 1 APRIL 2004



              (Consideration of Request for Approval)



There was no debate.



Draft notice and schedule determining the rate at which salaries are

payable to magistrates annually with effect from 1 April 2004

approved.




       ALLEGATIONS OF NONDISCLOSURE BY MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT



 (Consideration of Report of Joint Committee on Ethics and Members‟

                             Interests)



Mr L T LANDERS: Chairperson, the content of our report speaks for

itself. Therefore, I will not refer to it, except to allude to it in

the statement I am about to make. The Code of Conduct for members of

Parliament allows MPs to hold financial interests, but also requires
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                          PAGE: 70


that they disclose these interests. This allows members to pursue

their financial interests in an open and transparent manner.



The report before this House indicates that many of the

nondisclosures by members were as a result of misunderstanding the

Code of Conduct, particularly with regard to the disclosure of

dormant companies. We do want to stress that in none of the cases

dealt with by the committee was there any evidence or implication of

corruption or conflict of interests on the part of the members

concerned. Indeed, we reiterate what is contained in the conclusions

of our report, namely that no member withheld any information from

the committee or deliberately tried to mislead it.



The reprimands and sanctions meted out to members are in accordance

with the Joint Rules of Parliament. This allows Parliament to

enforce its own rules, and further it views the nondisclosure by

members in a serious light. Parliament will always ensure that when

there is a breach of the Code, it invokes the penalties laid down in

our Rules and applies them consistently without fear or favour.



However, there is a need continuously and effectively to raise

awareness amongst MPs about the requirements of the Code, the

importance of disclosure and the updating of the register, as well

as the serious consequences for failing to do so.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 71


Members of Parliament are elected public representatives, and cannot

be seen to be in violation of the Rules of Parliament. Therefore,

the committee must be seen to be acting to ensure compliance, and

has accordingly issued these sanctions to demonstrate its serious

intent to enforce our Code.



At this point, as we always do, we humbly request this House to

adopt our report, and we ask that the findings and recommendations

contained therein be implemented speedily. I thank you. [Applause.]



There was no debate.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, let me start by

questioning the procedure. I thought that the affected members would

be given an opportunity to say something - if you find it correct,

sir.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr N P Nhleko): They will be given an

opportunity after the adoption.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chair, I then move for the

adoption of the Report.



Question put: That the Report be adopted.



Declarations of vote:
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                         PAGE: 72




Adv H C SCHMIDT: Mr Chairperson, the DA agrees with the convictions

of the hon Mr M T Goniwe, Chief Whip of the ANC, the hon Mrs N B

Gxowa, Deputy Minister N E Hangana, Deputy Minister R L Padayachie,

Mr N A Ramathlodi and Deputy Minister L M Xingwana for failing to

declare their directorships in companies following reports in the

Mail and Guardian. Whilst agreeing with the conclusion reached by

the committee in clearing Deputy Minister D A Hanekom, the hon Adv S

P Holomisa and Deputy Minister S Shabangu of all charges, the DA

strongly disagrees with the decisions to exonerate Ms J L Kgoali,

Chairperson of the NCOP, Mrs M L Ngwenya and Ms M A A Njobe on

similar charges.



Ms Kgoali‟s failure to declare a directorship in respect of All Pay,

a separate company from Sediba sa Basadi, ought to have led to a

conviction for failing to declare a directorship in All Pay. She

declared a directorship in Sediba sa Basadi, an empowerment partner

of All Pay, but failed to do so in respect of All Pay.



The DA is of the view that her failure to have done so renders her

unfit to continue to occupy the important and prominent position of

Chairperson of the NCOP. [Interjections.] In the instance of Mr M

Goniwe, the Chief Whip of the ANC... Interjections.]



Mr M DIKO: Chairperson, on a point of order: The Mail and Guardian

apologised to Mr B Holomisa for the error that it made when it
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 73


published that article. The member mentioned him when he read the

list of names.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr N P Nhleko): Sir, that is not a point of

order. It‟s a response to a point. So, please proceed, sir.



Adv H C SCHMIDT: Chair, in the instance of Mr Goniwe, the Chief Whip

of the ANC, the fine of R1 000 each for two breaches of the Code of

Conduct for failing to declare his directorships in two dormant

companies is totally inadequate, considering his position. He should

set an example as Chief Whip, and a heavier sentence ought therefore

to have been imposed by the committee.



The imposition of a penalty of R2 000 for his failure to declare his

directorships in two companies is tantamount to condoning such

failure. The example set for other members who are tempted to

conceal their assets is appalling. They will know that the penalty

for failure, even a wilful failure, which is not relevant here, is

so slight that dishonesty pays.



The DA therefore calls upon Parliament to impose a heavier sentence

on the Chief Whip, Mr Goniwe, as well as overturning the finding of

not guilty relating to Ms Kgoali to one of having contravened the

Code of Conduct by failing to declare her directorship in All Pay.

Her immediate removal as Chairperson of the NCOP should then follow.

I thank you. [Applause.]
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 74




Mr M T LIKOTSI: Chairperson, the PAC of Azania carefully went

through the report. We approved the findings of the committee and

hope members will adhere strictly to Parliament‟s rule regarding

members‟ ethics and members‟ interests. The problem we are faced

with in our country is to merge African and Western attitudes of

dealing with issues.



In the African way most things are done by way of a gentlemen‟s

agreement, whilst in the Western way it is by way of written

contracts and binding rules. [Applause.] [Laughter.]



Mrs C DUDLEY: Chairperson, the ACDP acknowledges that in many

instances members have been unclear in terms of their duty to

disclose businesses that are defunct or not operational. In some

instances this is due to the fact that a note, which refers

specifically to dormant companies, is not found in the Code of

Conduct, but on a sheet of paper, which is separate to the Rules

booklet.



We do, however, believe that it is important to set an example

whereby members of Parliament are expected to uphold their own

Rules. Of course there is a difference between technical offences

and genuine dishonesty, corruption and undue influence being

exerted, and this distinction must be drawn.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 75


The ACDP supports efforts by the Ethics Committee to treat these

issues seriously and to apply penalties, which will help enforce a

culture of attention to detail when it comes to ethical conduct of

MPs. Thank you.



Mrs P DE LILLE: Chairperson, ignorance of the law or ignorance of a

rule is no excuse. Members must read instructions. Note 3 and its

explanatory note states that all directorships and partnerships must

be disclosed, including those in dormant companies.



Members are also advised personally to ensure that the information

held by the Registrar of Companies is correct. That places a

responsibility on members of Parliament. They must accept

responsibility for their business interests. They must also declare

such interests before the cut-off date. They should not wait for a

media report to raise a company, and only then run and declare the

company. The cut-off date sometimes gets extended for months to

allow members to comply.



For the committee to say that because a company is dormant,

therefore it is not a serious offence, really contradicts our own

Code, and we should be looking more seriously at this. Breach of the

Code of Conduct really means that you did not declare your dormant

company or business interests before the cut-off date. That is the

breach, because it is not in the register. We can‟t begin to qualify
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                        PAGE: 76


what is a breach, because then we are going to run into serious

problems.



Once again, the ID requests Parliament to come up with legislation

that can give effect to the Code of Conduct. Otherwise the way we

are dealing with the Code of Conduct now makes a mockery of the Code

of Ethics, and certainly the ID will not accept this report. Thank

you. [Interjections.]



Mr D GUMEDE: Chairperson, allow me to put this report into context.

We see dormant companies as companies that have never operated at

all. We do not mean that these companies have been temporarily

inactive, but they have never operated at all. They are just

registered and have listed directors.



So, when we talk about dormant companies, we are talking about these

cases. That is the first point. The second point is that we found no

conflict of interest between the positions the accused held and the

type of interests that it was alleged they possessed.



Thirdly, some organisations mentioned, like Malibongwe, are not for

profit. Instead, the accused members pay their own money to assist

them to operate. These interests are not financial, and the Code is

clear on this, namely that if the purpose of the organisation is to

assist communities to be members of a club and so forth, where the
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 77


member does not derive any financial interest, it is out of the

ambit of this Code.



Lastly, the Code of Conduct is written in formal English. The

Constitution acknowledges, and I think there is a reason for it, 11

official languages. This Code of Conduct is only in English.

Firstly, we would plead with Parliament to give the necessary

support to all the members in the line of clarifying and simplifying

the Code. Secondly, members should be assisted with access to the

Internet and be given information that is readily available on the

Internet. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Mr M T MASUTHA: Chairperson, on a point of order: During the course

of these deliberations hon Schmidt made a statement to the effect

that an official of this Parliament, Ms Kgoali, is unfit to hold the

office which she currently holds. I am of the opinion that this is

in violation of Rule 66, in terms of which statements such as those

cannot be made without a substantive motion. We would like him to

withdraw those comments.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, may I address you on

that point of order. The very matter that we are discussing and

considering at the moment is Ms Kgoali‟s conduct, and an expression

of opinion like that is perfectly in order. This House is being

asked to impose a penalty on Ms Kgoali, and on that basis to suggest
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 78


that you are not allowed to discuss the matter is just nonsense,

with respect.



THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr N P Nhleko): Gentlemen, could I ask you to

take your seats. Firstly, I think we need to correct this. The

matter under discussion is not the conduct of Ms Kgoali. We are

discussing a report from the committee. I think we have to be very

clear on that specific question.



The second one is that we would also need to be given an opportunity

from our end to study the record in terms of what exactly were the

utterances and expressions of the hon member Schmidt. Thereafter I

think we would be in a position to give a ruling to this House.



Question put: That the Report be adopted.



Division demanded.



The House divided:


AYES-202: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya,

S E; Baloyi, M R; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F;

Bhengu, M J; Bhengu, P; Bloem, D V; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Cachalia, I

M; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I;

Combrinck, J J; Cwele, S C; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L

N; Didiza, A T; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dlali, D M; Fubbs, J L;
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                            PAGE: 79


Gabela, L S; Gaum, A H; Gerber, P A; Gillwald, C E; Godi, N T;

Gogotya, N J; Gololo, C L; Goniwe, M T; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D

M; Gumede, M M; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P; Herandien, C B; Hogan, B

A; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Kalako,

M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kati, Z J; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P;

Komphela, B M; Kondlo, N C; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers,

L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Likotsi, M T; Lishivha, T E; Louw,

J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabe, L

L; Mabena, D C; Mabuyakhulu, D V; Madumise, M M; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N;

Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J;

Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Manana, M N S;

Manie, M S; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R;

Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Masithela, N H; Masutha, T M;

Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Maunye, M M; Mbete, B; Mbombo,

N D; Mentor, M P; Meruti, M V; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mlangeni, A;

Mnandi, P N; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M;

Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D;

Morobi, D M; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Motubatse-

Hounkpatin, S D; Mpaka, H M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B;

Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-

Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngema, M

V; Ngwenya, M L; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkuna, C;

Nogumla, R Z; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L

P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G

G; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A;

Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Ramphele, T D H;

Rasmeni, S M; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S;

September, C C; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Siboza, S; Sibuyana, M W;
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                            PAGE: 80

Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Smith, V G; Solo, B

M; Solomon, G; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thomson, B;

Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Turok, B;

Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Wyk, Annelizé; Vundisa, S S;

Xingwana, L M; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L L; Zikalala, C N Z; Zita, L; Zulu, B

Z; Zulu, N E.




NOES-43: Batyi, F; Blanché, J P I; Botha, C-S; Burgess, C V;

Camerer, S M; De Lille, P; Doman, W P; Dudley, C; Durr, K D S;

Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Green, L M; Greyling, L W;

Haasbroek, S F; Harding, A; Jankielsohn, R; King, R J; Lee, T D;

Masango, S J; Mfundisi, IS; Minnie, K J; Mnyandu, B J; Morgan, G R;

Morkel, C M; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P J;

Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Semple, J A; Smuts, M; Swart, M;

Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M;

Wang, Y; Waters, M; Weber, H; Zille, H.


ABSTAIN-7: Bici, J; Diko, M; Madikiza, G T; Mdaka, N M; Nkabinde, N

C; Sigcau, Sylvia N; Stephens, M.



Report accordingly adopted.



                      COMMENTS BY HON H C SCHMIDT



                                 (Ruling)
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 81


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr N P NHLEKO): Order! Hon members, during

the discussion of the report that we have just voted on and

accordingly adopted, a point of order was raised by hon Masutha with

regard to the comments made by the hon Schmidt.

I think we should be reminded that firstly, hon Kgoali is not a

member of this House; and secondly, that we have always been

governed and directed by a principle that says this House will not

reflect on the conduct of members in the other House. Therefore, any

references by any member, and in this specific case by the hon

Schmidt, are comments that are inappropriate. I therefore request

the hon Schmidt to withdraw his remark.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, may I address you on

this point of order?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr N P NHLEKO): Please proceed, hon member.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: The House was busy considering a

report of the Joint Committee on Ethics and Members‟ Interests. The

ethics committee had been charged with investigating charges against

members both of this House and of the other House, including Ms

Kgoali, who happens to be the Chairperson of the NCOP. She was not

being investigated in that capacity though. The committee then had

to decide whether her conduct contravened the code of ethics or not.

The majority of the members of the committee concluded that she had

not contravened the code. Those from this side of the House believe
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 82


that Ms Kgoali‟s has conduct had contravened the code and they think

that because of her seniority, it is a very serious matter. I submit

to you that it is perfectly appropriate, if one believes that, to

say that she should not continue as chairperson of that House.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr N P NHLEKO): Order! Hon members, I have

accordingly given a ruling, but nevertheless for purposes of clarity

on this matter, I think, Mr Gibson, we shouldn‟t confuse two things.

The structure referred to is a joint committee, and the House that

is considering this issue is the National Assembly, and not a joint

session. Therefore, the principle that says this House will not

reflect upon the conduct of other members serving in another House

is therefore appropriate, and that is the issue we are addressing. I

just thought that maybe I would want to clarify that very same

issue, but a ruling has been given in that regard: that it is not

appropriate for this National Assembly to reflect upon the conduct

of hon members who serve in the National Council of Provinces or the

other House.



An additional point that I am being reminded of as well is that in

any event this very same report is for consideration and

deliberation by the very same House. Therefore, they will also

accordingly look into it. Thank you. Therefore, hon Schmidt, I ask

you to withdraw your comment.

Adv H C SCHMIDT:   Mr Chairperson, I withdraw it.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                         PAGE: 83


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr N P NHLEKO): The report having been

adopted we will now afford an opportunity to the following affected

hon members, the Chief Whip of the Majority Party Mr Goniwe, Deputy

Minister Hanekom, Deputy Minister Xingwana and hon Mr Gumede to

address the House.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Mr House Chairperson, I want

to make three points very quickly. Firstly, notwithstanding some

reservations I may have about the procedures, I want to say that I

fully accept the judgement by the committee and equally so express

my full confidence in the chairperson and the collective that is

working in that committee and express my sincerest regret for this

oversight on my part. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Chairperson, I would

also like to thank the committee for its work and for a job well

done. I think that it‟s important for us just to reflect on one or

two points, if I may have the opportunity to do so.



Clearly, those members who were implicated in certain wrongdoings by

the Mail and Guardian article would feel pleased and relieved that

those who were exonerated by the committee feel pleased that their

names were cleared. But that isn‟t really the issue: the issue is

that the committee did its work well and with integrity.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 84


I think some of the lessons would be that, notwithstanding the

comment that people are innocent or rather that ignorance is no

excuse in the eyes of the law, we should recognise the fact that

most of the people that were brought in front of this committee were

people who did not derive any financial benefit and were in most

cases genuinely not aware of what the specific requirements were,

although the onus is on us to find out what exactly it is that we

have to do. These are genuine cases of not deliberately declining to

reveal what is required of us.



I think the other lesson from this is that notwithstanding the fact

that we have rules, people will err. I think as members of this

House the one thing we should never do is to take a gleeful attitude

when people err. Even if a member of the DA or of the ID is guilty

of wrongdoing, I should not say, well gee, this is a good

opportunity for me to knock that particular party because the

wrongdoing of one party reflects badly on everyone in this House.

So, I think we should all say that we don‟t take any delight when

people are guilty of making errors or of wrongdoing. We say we want

every member of this House to be members that we associate with with

pride.



I think some of the lessons we have leant are that rules are very

important as well as being clear guidelines. If we are going to

minimise wrongdoing and errors, systems need to be put in place that

are as much as possible easily understood, easily enforced and
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 85


easily monitored. So, I think that is one of the challenges to the

House.



My last point is that the media need to reflect very carefully. I

think the Mail and Guardian in this case was guilty of making

pronouncements and allegations without doing its homework properly.

I think it should reflect on that. It is easy for us to be public

representatives and to say we are in the spotlight. Yes, of course,

we are. But the media also have responsibility and should exercise

that responsibility much more carefully. I think the Mail and

Guardian should reflect very seriously on whether they did justice

to this country or not. Thank you very much. [Applause.]



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERALS AND ENERGY: Chairperson, I also want

to declare that I accept the principle of transparency and

accountability, but firstly, I want to thank the committee for

clearing me regarding the allegations against Malibongwe.



I want to agree with the previous member that some of our

journalists are completely unprofessional and unethical. I

personally responded to the Mail and Guardian. I informed them that

I had not been active in Malibongwe for the last four years and that

I had been a Deputy Minister for only four months when they made

this allegation. There was no way that I could have allocated a mine

to my so-called company, as I was not a Deputy Minister last year.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 86


I also want to declare that I am very proud to have been a member of

Malibongwe, a nonprofit organisation that serves women, particularly

rural and poor women. [Applause.] If I had the time I would have

gone back and worked for Malibongwe. I also want to say that I am

very proud to have worked with women veterans and leaders of the

calibre of Makhosazana Nnjobe, Mme Lydia and Adelaide Tambo, as well

as Nadine Gordimer, as directors of Malibongwe.



I want to stress that I responded to the Mail and Guardian, but

because some of our journalists are interested in only telling the

world that all MPs are corrupt and fraudulent I want to take this

matter up with my lawyers.



On the matter of City Cat or Lebone, I genuinely was not aware that

I was a director. Since its registration, I have never been invited

to a single meeting of this company. I don‟t know where they are

doing business, and if they are doing business what kind of

business. I‟ve never received any remuneration. I‟ve never received

any dividends; therefore I do accept what the committee said.



I just want to raise a concern, namely that there are no proper

procedures for appeal regarding this committee‟s decisions and I

think Parliament must take that into consideration. Thank you.

[Applause.]
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                         PAGE: 87

PROTOCOL TO THE AFRICAN CHARTER ON HUMAN AND PEOPLE’S RIGHTS ON THE

                        RIGHTS OF WOMEN IN AFRICA



   (Consideration of Report of Portfolio Committee on Justice and

  Constitutional Development and Request for Approval in terms of

                   Section 231(2) of the Constitution)



Ms F I CHOHAN-KHOTA: Chairperson and hon members, the protocol

before us is unusual in many respects. Firstly, it is a human rights

instrument that applies at public international law level. This

means that while it gives rights to citizens, particularly women, it

is only member states, by and large, who are able to enforce it

amongst each other.



Secondly, article 4(2)(j) of the protocol, while excluding the

practice of the death penalty against women who are pregnant and

women who are nursing, inadvertently allows the practice against

other categories of women, including minors. Clearly, our

Constitutional Court has ruled against the death penalty in our

country, so this article finds no application in our country.

However, the Constitutional Court has expressed that the right to

life is sacrosanct and an inalienable right without which any other

rights cannot find expression.



It has also broadened the application of the State‟s duty to

safeguard the rights of individuals beyond our borders. The
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                        PAGE: 88


existence of article 4(2)(j) of the protocol, therefore, may be

construed to be an inadvertent sanctioning of the practice of the

death penalty in other member states. This may conflict with section

2 of our Constitution, which upholds its own supremacy and

invalidates all law and conduct inconsistent with it.



For Parliament to approve the protocol under the circumstances would

have been potentially illegal and we, therefore, proposed that the

House approves the protocol, subject to the reservations, as they

are stated in the ATC, in order to ensure that no adverse legal

consequences can be visited against Parliament and the executive

pertaining to the ratification of the protocol.



This, in itself, gave rise to a whole host of legal questions and

debates about whether Parliament has the inherent right to invoke

such reservations. The legal opinions ranged from no to yes and

every hue inbetween. I particularly appreciated the view of the hon

Kader Asmal, who argued that Parliament doesn‟t have the inherent

right, but where there is executive concurrence the adoption by

Parliament is entirely in order.



I label that particular kind of opinion as being certainly very wise

and very strategic, but also typically South African, in the sense

that it‟s a ja-nee approach. However, I believe it is pragmatic, and

I do believe that sometimes we need to be pragmatic, particularly

because the reservations we proposed are essentially going to have
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 89


the effect of being a communiqué to the executive by Parliament to

affect reservations, failing which, of course, Parliament‟s

concurrence will not have been achieved.



Together with this reservation, the committee adopted the

reservations orally proposed by the South African negotiating teams

during the construction of the protocol. These relate essentially to

the customary marriages, where our country protects women whose

marriages are not reduced to written certificates. Secondly, our

negotiating teams endorsed a reservation against article 6(h) of the

protocol, which makes the inherent right to citizenship and

nationality of children subject to national security interests.



We have also proposed to the executives that two interpretive

declarations be made: firstly, against the definition of

discrimination against women which, in many respects, differs from

our own interpretation of the equality clause. Our courts have

developed the concept of unfair discrimination in order to promote

full societal equality, so that even previously disadvantaged

individuals are preferred in certain circumstances.



Secondly, because of our inherent system of limitations, another

interpretive declaration is made to the effect that the mere

existence of these limitations in our Constitution should not be

interpreted to be a less-favourable-rights regime. In fact, that is

precisely the unusual nature of this protocol. By affecting these
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 90


reservations, Parliament does not detract from the promotion of a

rights jurisprudence on our continent, but exactly the opposite is

true; we actually enhance such a development on our continent. We

point out that there is a mutually complimentary relationship that

exists between our jurisprudence and that which is beginning to

develop on our continent.



This document is not a trailblazer in our country, but its worth is

found in the fact that it exists, and that it exists in Africa; that

for the first time in some cultures completely opposed to the very

notion of the equality of genders, women are seen to be deserving of

special protection and special status.



We should, instead of decrying its legal shortcomings, praise this

initiative of African countries and encourage the progressive

realisation of more and more rights as we enter the twenty-first

century. I commend this protocol to the House and I thank you for

your time, hon members. [Applause.]



There was no debate.



The SPEAKER: Are there any objections to the adoption of the report

of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development

on the Protocol to the African Charter on Human and People‟s Rights

on the Rights of Women in Africa?
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 91


Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, we did not raise an objection, but we

have asked for an opportunity to declare our vote.



Declarations of vote:



Mr S N SWART: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The ACDP fully recognises

the crucial role women play in the preservation of our continent‟s

values based on the principles of equality, peace, freedom, dignity,

justice and democracy. We are also aware that despite the

ratification of the African Charter and other international human

rights instruments by the majority of African nations, women and

girls in Africa still continue to be victims of discrimination and

harmful practices.



Therefore, whilst the ACDP does not agree with all aspects of the

portfolio committee‟s report, we do support the request for approval

by Parliament of the protocol in view of these many positive

provisions contained therein. In this regard, we wish to

specifically record our reservation to article 14 thereof. Article

14, whilst containing laudable provisions relating to health,

authorises abortion, albeit in certain limited circumstance and not

on demand. [Interjections.] Our position on capital punishment is

well known and therefore we do not support the committee‟s comments

that are contrary to our party‟s position. Notwithstanding the

above, the ACDP is prepared to support the request for approval of

the protocol. I thank you.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 92




The SPEAKER: Are there any other declarations?



Mrs S M CAMERER: Madam Speaker, I apologise for not having had the

opportunity to prepare, because I was unaware that I would have the

opportunity to speak. I want to support what the Chair has said, but

also to note that this protocol is a very controversial measure in

many ways. We support the fact that the reservations had been

appealed for and should be noted, because I think it would be highly

improper for our Parliament to support the protocol without

reservations. Thank you.



Mr P D N MALOYI: Chair, I would like to give a piece of advice, and

the advice is that it is important for members of Parliament to

read. After reading, it is key for them to ask questions and, after

asking questions, it is very important for them to listen when they

are answered.



It is unethical for the ACDP to want to parachute the question of

abortion into this debate. Yesterday, when we spoke in this Chamber,

we were talking about the choice of termination. The ACDP as members

of the committee - we would have assumed as members of the ANC ...



Mr L M GREEN: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.



The SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 93




Mr L M GREEN: A ruling was made yesterday by the presiding officer

on exactly this matter. It was dealt with, and I think the member is

raising the same issue in terms of which our member was allowed to

use the words preferred by our member, and that was the ruling of

the Chair. This member is now going against that ruling.



The SPEAKER: I am not familiar with the point of order you are

talking about and the words you are referring to, but my

understanding is that this hon member is really relating his words

in respect of what you were saying.



Mr L M GREEM: Yes, but let me just bring to your attention that the

word “abortion” is in the protocol.



The SPEAKER: No, that‟s fine. I don‟t think the word was the issue.

I thought that what he was saying, the point he was raising, was

about bringing that particular debate into this discussion on this

report, and not so much the word “abortion” as such. I think, hon

member, proceed with your declaration of vote.



Mr P D N MALOYI: Chair, listening is a skill. It is now becoming an

art, so it is important for hon members to listen. What we are

saying is that, as the ANC, we support this protocol as outlined by

the chairperson. As I was saying earlier, let us not parachute other

issues into this particular protocol, because we spoke a lot
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 94


yesterday about the choice of termination of pregnancy, and let us

not open that particular debate.



So, as the ANC we support the protocol and we request all members of

Parliament, irrespective of their political affiliations, to read,

to ask questions and to listen. I thank you, Chair. [Applause.]



Report adopted.



Protocol to the African Charter on Human and People‟s Rights on the

Rights of Women in Africa approved with reservations contained in

the committee‟s report as adopted.



The SPEAKER: Now, hon members, that brings us to the last item on

the Order Paper, which is the Farewell Speeches, our favourite item

on any Order Paper in any year.



                         FAREWELL SPEECHES



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you, Speaker. It is my

privilege to say some words of thanks and farewell on behalf of the

DA.



Firstly, I express my grateful thanks to the parliamentary staff at

all levels for the service that we have received this year. There

are deficiencies and shortcomings, but most of the people with whom
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 95


I come into contact with are kind, pleasant and efficient. I want,

particularly, to thank the service officers, the security people and

the catering staff for their good service this year.



This year, 2004, has been a tumultuous and tough year for people in

and around Parliament. Those of us who are old politicians had a

torrid and lengthy election campaign before we got back. Those of us

who are here for the first time have had to learn a great deal and

adapt to many new ideas and experiences in a short time. I thank, in

particular, the members of the DA team for their positive

contribution at all times in this House to nation-building and to

strengthening democracy.



The miracle of this session is that the ANC has managed to get

through a whole session without having to change their Chief Whip. I

am working on the hon Mr Goniwe, because people are starting to

blame me for the fact that there is a rapid turnover and burnout

among ANC Chief Whips. [Laughter.] They have had six, and I am still

here, so I am going to keep him. I am going to keep him at least

until next year. I believe they were giving out trophies to the ex-

Chief Whips. They should have given me six at the same time as they

gave them, with what I‟ve had to put up with from them. [Laughter.]



Having said all of those nice things, I now want to be a bit more

serious, and say that the most serious aspect of Parliament this

year has been the whole Travelgate scandal, which has hung over both
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 96


Houses and all MPs. According to the Speaker the beginnings of the

travel voucher scandal came to light almost two years ago. Chief

Whips were told by the Speaker early in August that the Scorpions

were ready to arrest 23 MPs, but would hold off until 18 August,

pending interviews. Some ANC MPs refused to go and the exact status

of those interviews is no longer clear. What is clear is that three

months have gone by and not a single member of Parliament has been

arrested.



To many others and me it‟s not acceptable that the matter has

dragged on in this way. There is a cloud hanging over every MP,

those who are honest, as well as those who are alleged to have

committed criminal offences. I am not a crook and I do not enjoy

having members of the public assume that all MPs are thieves,

because they are not.



What concerns me even more than the 23 who have not been charged, is

the 70 others who are allegedly implicated in the Bathong Travel

affair. I do not understand why Bathong Travel has not been

liquidated. I want to state clearly that I have received information

to the effect that the liquidation will not proceed, because certain

people are determined that there will be no liquidation enquiry and

no interrogation of the guilty.



The SPEAKER: Order, hon member. Yes, hon member, what is your point

of order?
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 97




Mr M S MANIE: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The item is

quite clear in that we are having farewell speeches. The member is

raising substantive matters that are totally unrelated to this

issue. I wish you to bring him to order please. [Interjections.]



The SPEAKER: Hon Gibson, that is actually true. However, I will

allow you to finish your speech. I do want to respond to some

aspects of what you are saying.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you, Speaker. This means

that if no liquidation takes place, there will be no interrogation

of the guilty and it means that nobody is going to be able to

testify under oath and, unless we are very careful, nobody will pay

for their misdeeds.



It is also strongly rumoured that Parliament is trying to arrange

for a payment of R400 000 in full settlement of the Bathong debt and

that MPs will then merely have to refund Parliament.



There are allegations that the police are not co-operating with the

Scorpions. There are rumours that Parliament itself is not being

very co-operative. There are certain allegations that people have

been charged to handle the matter to minimise the embarrassment.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 98


However unpleasant it might be to raise words like this during a

farewell message, this is an important matter affecting Parliament

for the whole of South Africa, and I can‟t just pretend that it‟s

not here, and we mustn‟t pretend that it is not here. Anybody who

thinks that there is going to be a cover-up and that the Travelgate

scandal will go away, does so over my dead body.



The SPEAKER: Order, hon member! Yes, hon Green.



Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, on a point of order. I‟m sure that all

political parties here would like to respond to the substantive

issues raised by the hon Gibson. We are not being given that

opportunity because we have prepared ourselves for farewell

speeches. So, I think, Madam Speaker, you have to rule on this issue

in that we stick to the subject.



The SPEAKER: Yes, you are correct, hon Green. As I indicated earlier

on, I am simply allowing the hon Gibson to finish his speech out of

courtesy from the Chair. However, it is out of order. It really is,

hon Gibson, out of order for you to be consistently standing there,

abusing the opportunity to give a farewell speech in order to raise

a whole range of controversial rumours and supposed facts. You are

even misquoting me in the process. It is actually because of this

that I thought I would let you finish. But, really, I regret that

you have decided to use this opportunity of farewell speeches, which
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                         PAGE: 99


is usually a very cordial opportunity, to be so opposite to the

spirit of farewell speeches.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam, I regret that it‟s

necessary for me to use the opportunity. [Interjections.]



The SPEAKER: Hon members, allow the hon member to finish his speech.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Parliament belongs not just to

members of Parliament but to all of the people, and we need to stand

up for honesty and integrity in public life. We need less lip

service to the people and much more determined honest action.

Although Parliament is adjourning, quite a number of committees will

meet next week and there is still a great deal of work to be done in

the field and in the constituencies. I extend my very best wishes to

all friends and colleagues in the House, and I wish the Christians,

... [Interjections.]



The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: ... a blessed Christmas; the

Muslims; Eid Mubarak; the Hindus, a blessed Diwali ...

[Interjections.]



The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Allow the hon member to finish.

[Interjections.] Hon members, please allow the hon Gibson to finish.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                        PAGE: 100




The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: It‟s very easy to be popular, and

it‟s not so easy to be unpopular. I wish all the Christians a

blessed Christmas, the Muslims Eid Mubarak, the Hindus a blessed

Diwali and everyone else a happy holiday. [Applause.]



The SPEAKER: Order, Order! Hon Bloem, please take your seat. I

simply want to take this opportunity, firstly, to indicate that it

is inaccurate to say that the Speaker said, in addressing the Chief

Whips of all parties, that the Scorpions were ready to arrest 23

members. It is simply not true. I reported to the Chief Whips that

we had been handed 23 names of members with whom the Scorpions

wished to interact in pursuit of the work that they were doing in

the particular probe. To say that they were ready to arrest those

members is simply not telling the truth. That is the first thing.



Secondly, I want to appeal to every member who is going to stand at

the podium not to follow the unfortunate example set by hon Gibson.

They should proceed in the spirit of the usual farewell speeches so

that we can go home. We hope that hon Gibson, in the course of the

festive season, is going to change his attitude.



Mr A MLANGENI: May I address you on a point of order, Madam Speaker?



The SPEAKER: What is your point of order?
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 101


Mr A MLANGENI: Mr Gibson ...



The SPEAKER: Hon member, please don‟t go back to hon Gibson. Let‟s

let hon Gibson go home and ...



Mr A MLANGENI: No, no, no! I‟m going to ask him to apologise to you,

Madam Speaker. We want him to apologise for misquoting you. He is an

old politician and an old member of Parliament. For him to come and

make such a statement in Parliament, and say that the Speaker said

this and that, is incorrect. He should please apologise.



The SPEAKER: Hon member, please allow me to chair. Let‟s leave hon

Gibson alone and let me call upon hon Van der Merwe to address the

House.



Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Madam Speaker, I just want to deliver a

farewell speech today. At the end of this month I will have been a

member of Parliament for 27 consecutive years. I have, however,

discovered, to my own humiliation, that I have always spoken in

either Afrikaans or English. I never, in 20 years, tried to speak in

any one of the other indigenous languages. Today I want to put that

right. I‟m going to speak in Sesotho. [Applause.]



Mme Speaker le ditho tsa Palamente. Kajeno ke batla ho leka ho bua

Sesotho sa Borwa. Wa bona, ke holetse mane Freistata, moo ke

ithutileng Sesotho hanyane teng. Batho ba bang ba mpitsa Mojapere,
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 102


ha ba bang ba mpitsa Mojatransporoto.[Ditsheho.] Letona la

Tshireletso ke mojapere e moholo empa o bua puo ya Afrikaans hantle

haholo.



Afrika Borwa e na le dipuo tse leshome le motso o le mong tsa

semmuso. Ke nahana hore bohle re tshwanetse ho leka ho ithuta dipuo

tse ngata. Ke tsela eo re tla utlwisisanang hantle ka yona. Mme

Speaker ke dumellana le bao ba buileng pele ho nna, empa, o monna o

batla monate feela. [Ditlatse.][Ditsheho.]



Lebitsong la IFP, le nna ke rata ho leboha batho bohle ba thusitseng

ho tlisa katleho selemong sa 2004. Mothating ona re lokela ho hopola

hore le ha re dutse mekgatlong e fapaneng bohle re ntse re le batho

feela. Bohle re bopilwe ke Modimo, bohle re leka ho etsa dintho tse

ntle feela. Kajeno ha se letsatsi la ho ngangisana, ke nako ya ho

bua ka dintho tse ntle. Kahoo, lebitsong la Moporesidente wa IFP, le

ditho tsohle tsa rona tsa IFP, ke le lakaletsa leeto le bolokehileng

ho ya hae.



Re le lakaletsa phomolo e monate. Re lakaletsa thabo ho ba malapa le

metswalle ya lona. Re le lakaletsa Keresemese e monate, mmoho le

selemo se setjha sa katleho. Jwale re rapele hore Modimo a ke a

otlolle letsoho la hae hodima rona ho fihlela re kopana hape. Ke

lekile ka hohle. Tsamayang ka kgotso. [Ditlatse.] ( Translation of

Sotho paragraphs follows.)
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                          PAGE: 103


[Madam Speaker and members of Parliament. Today I shall make an

attempt to speak Southern Sotho. I grew up in the Free State where I

learnt to speak a little Sesotho. It is for that reason that some

people call me Mojapere, while others call me Mojatransporoto.

[Laughter.] The Minister of Defence is a great Mojapere, but he

speaks fluent Afrikaans.



South Africa has eleven official languages. I am of the opinion that

we should all try to learn as   many languages as possible. That will

improve our communication with one another. Madam Speaker, I

therefore concur with the previous speaker, but you are a man and

you are only interested in a nice time. [Applause.] [Laughter.]



On behalf of the IFP I would like to thank all the people who

participated in bringing success to our country in 2004. At this

juncture we should bear in mind that even though we are

representatives of different parties, we are still ordinary human

beings. We were all created by God, and we all try to do only good

things. Today is a day for debate and it is time to speak about good

things. Therefore, on behalf of the president of the IFP and all

members of the IFP, I wish you a safe journey home.



We wish you happy holidays. May your families and your friends be

forever happy. Merry Christmas and a successful new year. Let us

pray God that He may keep us until we meet again. Farewell.

[Applause.]]
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 104




Mr M DIKO: Madam Speaker, we have reached the end of the first year

of the third democratic Parliament of South Africa. It seems that we

had barely been sworn in when in the blink of an eye we discovered

that the end of the year has arrived. It has been a very busy year

for all members, starting with an intensive election campaign, and

having to deal with the parliamentary budget process some months

later than it would normally have been.



Since then we have passed numerous pieces of legislation and

conducted various public hearings. As has become the norm, the

Parliament of South Africa has been very productive. A productive

and vibrant Parliament is an asset to democracy. Without becoming

arrogant we can applaud our success. In so doing we must also pay

tribute to the parliamentary staff who assists us in keeping the

wheels of this great machine turning smoothly.



Allow me to thank all members of the House for their contribution

and participation in the proceedings of the institution. We may not

always agree ideologically, but we are all democrats seeking the

best possible solutions to the challenges facing the nation.



Somlomo, ndifun‟ ukuthi abanye igazi liseshushu, ngoko kufuneka
bahambe bakhe baye kuqubha mhlawumbi baya kubuya bepholile. [Uwele-
wele.] Ndinga ndingathi kumaKrestu, akwaba anganeKrisimesi emnandi.
Kwabenkolo yamaMuslim ndithi, “Eid Mubarak”. KumaHindu ndithi akwaba
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                        PAGE: 105

bangabhiyoza kamnandi bebhiyozela ukoyiswa kobumnyama kukukhanya.
(Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)


[Madam Speaker, I reckon that some members may need to cool down and

therefore this time would be welcome to them. [Interjections.] May

the Christians have a peaceful Christmas. To those that follow the

Muslim religion I say, “Eid Mubarak”, and best wishes to the Hindus

who will be celebrating the victory of light over darkness.] I wish

all members of Parliament, on behalf of the UDM, a happy holiday and

I hope that when we come back we‟ll be ready to work.



Mhlawumbi, Douglas, sobuya sonke siphethe iiglavu. Ngoku
besingaziphethanga kuba besisithi size konwabisana apha. Enkosi.
[Uwele-wele.] [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa paragraph
follows.)


[Hon Douglas, maybe when we come back we will all put our gloves on.
We did not find it necessary to put them on because we thought that
we had come to entertain ourselves here. Thank you. [Interjections.]
[Applause.]]


Mr A HARDING: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The past year has indeed

been very exciting and challenging for the Independent Democrats. To

have achieved what the ID did in less than 24 months meant that we

had to put in quite a bit of hard work. We will certainly be taking

a well-deserved rest.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 106


I must just say that although we have found very many staff members

and many of the people around Parliament helpful, as a new MP I have

found that the institution is fairly unfriendly and unco-operative.

Furthermore, the institution is, in certain critical areas, weak and

dysfunctional. We as the ID look forward to a more organised and

dynamic Parliament in the very near future.



In conclusion, we wish all MPs, members of the Cabinet and all the

other religious groupings a good holiday. As usual, the choir at the

back there has been singing loudly, but mostly falsely, and I think

that these holidays are just what their tired voices need. Thank

you.



Mr C H F GREYLING: Madam Speaker, at the end of the first session of

the third democratic Parliament it is my pleasure to say a few words

of thanks and to convey our season‟s greetings. Therefore, I want to

thank you, Madam Speaker, as well as Madam Deputy Speaker, for your

sometimes difficult role, not only in maintaining the dignity of the

House, but also in keeping order.



Waar ons nou drie Voorsitters van die Huis het, wil ek ook graag aan

hulle dank betuig vir die onderskeie rolle wat hul speel om die

Parlementêre prosesse vlot te laat verloop. Dit is ook gepas om ons

dank uit te spreek teenoor die Hoofsweep en die Adjunkhoofsweep van

die Meerderheidsparty vir hul doeltreffende hantering van die

Hoofswepeforum. Ook aan alle Swepe aan opposisiekant, dankie vir die
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                         PAGE: 107


samewerking in die forums waar ons besluite moet neem in die belang

van alle lede van die Parlement.



Waardering ook aan die nuwe Sekretaris van die Parlement, en u word

voorspoed toegewens met die moeilike taak wat vir u voorlê. Aan die

Adjunksekretaris, Sekretaris van die Nasionale Vergadering, alle

Tafelpersoneel, diensbeamptes, spysenieringspersoneel,

veiligheidsbeamptes – alhoewel hulle nog steeds ons kattebakke hard

toeslaan, en so ook ons enjinkappe – en alle ander personeel wat die

Parlement se wiele ge-olie moet hou, ons opregte dank en waardering.



Ook „n woord van dank aan die media wat die publiek ingelig hou oor

die werksaamhede van die Parlement en sy vele komitees. (Translation

of Afrikaans paragraphs follows)



[Now that we have three Chairpersons of the House, I would also like

to express my thanks to them for the various roles that they play in

streamlining the parliamentary processes. It is also fitting to

express our thanks to the Chief Whip and the Deputy Chief Whip of

the Majority Party for their efficient management of the Chief Whips

Forum. Also to all the Whips on the opposition side, thank you for

your co-operation in the forums where we have to take decisions in

the interests of all members of Parliament.



Appreciation also goes to the new Secretary to Parliament, and we

wish you success with the difficult task that lies ahead. To the
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 108


Deputy Secretary, the Secretary of the National Assembly, all Table

Staff, the service officers, the catering personnel, the security

officers - although they still persist in slamming our car boots, as

well as our bonnets – and all other personnel of Parliament

responsible for its smooth running, we wish to express our sincere

thanks and appreciation.



Furthermore, a word of thanks goes to the media, which keeps the

public informed about the business of Parliament and its many

committees.]



In conclusion, I want to wish everybody a very pleasant festive

season. May 2005 be a prosperous year filled with happiness! I trust

that all of you will enjoy a well-deserved holiday and that you will

return safely next year. I thank you. [Applause.]



Mor. K R J MESHOE: Mme Sebui ke eme fa ke emetse mokgatlo wa ACDP.

Gape ke leboga Modimo ka thuso ya gagwe a re neileng yona mo

selemong se se se felang. Gape ke leboge maloko otlhe a Palamente ka

tirisano mmogo e entle e re e boneng. Le ba thusi ba rona mo di

kantorong tsa rona ba dirile ka natla. Ke rata go tsaa tshono e go

le leboga ka Pesalome (Psalms). Morago ga moo ke leboge le go

rapelela maloko otlhe a Palamente. (Translation of Tswana paragraph

follows.)
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                        PAGE: 109


[Rev K R J   MESHOE: Madam Speaker, I am speaking on behalf of the

ACDP. I would again like to thank God for his help throughout this

year that is coming to an end. I would also like to thank all

members of Parliament for the co-operation we have had. Our office

assistants also worked very hard. I would like to take this

opportunity to use Psalms to thank them. Thereafter I would like to

thank and pray for all members of Parliament.]



I am going to read from Psalm 113, titled Praise the Lord:



    Praise, oh servants of the Lord.

    Praise the name of the Lord!

    Blessed be the name of the Lord

    from this time forth and forever.

    From the rising of the sun to its going down,

    the Lord‟s name is to be praised.

    The Lord is high above all nations,

    his glory above the heavens.



    Who is like the Lord our God,

    who dwells on high;

    who humbles himself to behold the things that are in the

    heavens and in the earth.

    He raises the poor out of the dust

    and lifts the needy out of the ash heap

    that he may sit him with princes,
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 110


    with princes of his people.

    He grants the barren women a home

    like a joyful mother of children.

    Praise the Lord!



I want to pray. I want to pray. I want to pray. Father, I want to

thank You for the time that we can come to You to say thank You. By

Your grace we had good working relationships in this place. You

helped us. As we come to the end of this session, after having said

thank you to so many people, I want to say to You: Thank You very

much.



And, as we will be going to our respective places and homes, may

Your grace abide with us and ensure us safety, protect us throughout

this festive season, I pray, and help us to come back for the

challenges of the coming year refreshed and healthy. I ask all this

in Jesus‟ name. Amen!



The SPEAKER: Hon Reverend, next time you should time your prayer so

that it fits into your two minutes. [Laughter.]



Mr I S MFUNDISI: Madam Speaker and hon members, a born Mfundisi has

come here now. The book of books puts it aptly that there is a time

to come and a time to go, a time to meet and a time to part ways, a

time to bid welcome and a time to bid goodbye. The time to bid one

another goodbye has come.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 111




In looking back to the beginning of the first session of this third

Parliament of the Republic of South Africa, one cannot but do so

with a feeling of fulfilment for the good work done in the short

period. We in the UCDP wish to thank the entire Parliamentary

family, the cleaners and the service officers who ensure that we

operate in wholesome surroundings.



Though the delivery of documents in Marks Building still has to

improve, we have to thank staff because of their helpfulness; the

Table staff for their alertness in parliamentary procedure; and

sound and television personnel who have since come to accept that

the UCDP members deserve to be covered as well. We thank the

Secretary to Parliament for keeping parties informed and involved in

the process of governance in this institute.



Colleagues in the ANC Whippery have to be applauded for the

consultative manner in which they run the affairs of Parliament. The

Chief Whip, hon Goniwe, takes the cake in this regard for insisting

that the representation in Parliamentary structures should not be

the monopoly of some parties or individuals to the exclusion or even

complete marginalisation of other parties and their members.



Siyabulela ngalomzekelo wobubhexeshi obubonisayo mhlekazi,

akunamathandabuzo okuthi nabo unabo bakufunda kuwe Nyawuza.

(Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                        PAGE: 112




[We thank you for the example you have set. Undoubtedly, those who

work with you will learn from you, Nyawuza.]



I shall be remiss if I do not thank the presiding officers for the

masterly manner in which they execute their difficult task of

directing the proceedings of this House. To the three House

Chairpersons: We wish you all the strength. To the Speaker and the

Deputy Speaker: We pray for you to have strength, to have the wisdom

of Solomon and the heart to cope with our frailties. To all

colleagues: Adieu! Adieu! Fare thee well! May the good Lord shower

his blessings upon you! Till we meet! I thank you. [Applause.]



Mr M T LIKOTSI: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My farewell speech is

dedicated to imprisoned Azanian People‟s Liberation Army, Apla,

fighters. We must always remember fellow freedom fighters who, after

10 years of democracy, are still rotting in our jails, now called

correctional services. They fought fearlessly for us and with us to

bring about the democracy we are enjoying and celebrating.



Ka Sesotho ho thwe mofata sediba ha se nwe. [The Basotho say that he

who does the work, does not reap the fruits thereof.]



Whilst we champion democracy in Africa, let us remember that charity

begins at home. We are the lawmakers of our country. At the stroke

of a pen - if we have the political will - we can release those
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 113


noble sons and daughters of Africa to join the rest of us in

developing our country and celebrate this Christmas of 10 years of

our democracy.



I wish to thank all Parliamentary support staff who on my election

to this Parliament, professionally kept consulting with me on

relevant logistics about my travel arrangements, and for their best

and speedy assistance in filling in the first documents of our

members on Parliamentary premises. I further wish to thank the

Parliamentary VIP protection unit which protected all of us,

including our families, on our first stay in Cape Town in the first

term. I thank the Department of Public Works for housing us at

Acacia Park. [Laughter.]



I further wish to thank all hon members, old and new, who gave the

PAC of Azania full corporation in their noble cause of stabilising

democracy in our country. To all of you wonderful hon members and

those whose names I have not mentioned I say: Farewell! Farewell!

And a big farewell to you all! Whatever you do, remember Africa. I

thank you. [Applause.]



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Thank you very much, Madam

Speaker. May I start by announcing that I request you to place on

record that the ANC will make a formal approach to your Office for

consideration to be given to an investigation into the substance of

the issues that Mr Gibson raised here.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                          PAGE: 114




We have come to the conclusion of the year 2004. Even though we have

said it so many times before, for its significance we must say it

again in this august House that the year 2004 concludes South

Africa‟s first decade of freedom. This is a period that has come

with a lot of change in South Africa‟s political and social reality

and experience. The profundity of this experience has impacted on

African as well as global reality.



As we stand at the apex of 2004, necessarily and naturally we tend

to cast our eyes towards the next year and decade, wondering as we

do so what the future shall bring. Of course, as South Africans we

have learnt that the future will be what we make of it.



This democratic Parliament of the people of South Africa captures

the great and the timely aspirations representative of the views of

our country. We should note, though, that valued as this institution

is, this has not discouraged others from trying to dent its

integrity. This institution and members of Parliament have their

integrity negatively impacted upon by the manner in which

investigations into the travel scam were conducted. The manner in

which those matters were reported by the media, in my view,

exacerbated the situation. We regret this and hope that it never

recurs in the future.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 115


We don‟t want any member of Parliament to be arrested. We don‟t want

any member, no matter from what party, to be humiliated. We want the

dignity of all public representatives to be restored in this House

and in the public; that is the starting point.



We should, as we conclude this year, appeal to all South Africans

who have the honour of serving our people at this level to be

exemplary in putting the national interest above everything else. We

are a people bound by a common destiny that even our partisan

affiliations cannot undo. This fact must at all times be borne in

mind and should inform the manner in which we carry ourselves and

conduct the business of this House.



So many times, including yesterday, the issue of resources has come

up in this House. As an institution Parliament needs to be better

resourced. It is difficult for members to perform work under the

current conditions. The situation is worse when it comes to the work

that has to be done in constituencies. We have spoken about this in

the past, namely the vastness of many of our constituencies, the

rural character of others and the challenges attendant thereto.



We have highlighted the problems brought about by the very

underdevelopment we are trying to address. And, therefore, as we

look towards 2005 and the next decade, we must say that these

problem areas that have already been identified should be addressed.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 116


The service that members receive from staff generally is another

sore area. It seems there is a creeping institutional inertia which,

if not promptly dealt with, could have disastrous consequences.



There are those of our staff who give everything they have to enable

this institution to function, amongst whom are the Secretary to

Parliament, his Deputy; the capable Table staff, so ably led by our

secretary to the NA, Mr Hahndiek; and many others who sacrifice to

make sure, behind the scenes - working very long hours - that this

House‟s business goes on smoothly. [Applause.]



During the course of the year members experienced numerous problems

at parliamentary villages. These ranged from accommodation, water

cuts, security, etc. We are glad to note that the Parks‟ management

is doing something to resolve those problems. Many remain and need

to be attended to.



We must thank the presiding officers for the manner in which they

have conducted the overall affairs of Parliament: the Speaker, hon

Mbete; the Deputy Speaker, hon Gwen Mahlangu-Nkabinde; our three

House Chairs, Comrades Doidge and Nkosinathi Nhleko, and last, but

not least, uMama uSandra Botha.



We must also thank the Leader of Government Business and his Office

for their support and guidance, as well as members of the executive,

from the President to the Ministers and Deputy Ministers for their
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 117


co-operation and understanding. We also thank the Chief Whips of all

the parties, all of them without exception, for their co-operation

and the comradely spirit in which we tend to do things. Yes, there

are other minor things that we still need to attend to, but on the

whole we have worked very well as a team. Thank you for that, my

colleagues. [Applause.]



We thank the Whippery of all the parties as a whole, particularly

the Whippery of the Majority Party, for its commitment, selflessness

and everything it has done to make this year what it has been.



Lastly, we must thank all the members of Parliament for their

commitment to the nonracial and nonsexist cause of our people.

Contrary to popular belief that members of Parliament are overpaid

fat cats and passengers on the gravy train, we know how hard members

work. We are fully aware of the toll of the work you do on your

health, families, friends, etc. We must commend you for your

resilience and commitment and urge you to soldier on for the sake of

your people. [Applause.]



We wish all of you a joyous and safe festive season, and hope to see

you in the new year recharged, bright and fresh, ready to make yet

another advance in the campaign to fight poverty and create jobs.

For that to happen I think we need to consider these powerful

messages that we have been sending out throughout: abstain or be

faithful, or condomise; don‟t fool yourself, speed kills; don‟t
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 118


drink and drive, unless you drink milk. Thank you very much.

[Laughter.] [Applause.]



The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon members, for those farewell

speeches. I also wish to take this opportunity to add to those

remarks by saying that we have come to the end of a very hectic

year.



We left Parliament earlier this year, went on campaigns preparing

for the elections and, without as much as a break, came back for a

very hectic session in which we had to process the Budget. And here

we are, at the end of the year, having covered quite a large portion

of business.



We have, hon members, engaged with the Minister of Finance and we

hope that we will be able to be given the resources we need in order

to improve on the support that members need in order for them to be

maximally productive in favour of the electorate and to fulfil the

promises made during the elections. So we are all keeping our

fingers crossed, hoping that we will get those resources. But all

the issues that members have been raising were indeed raised and

were accommodated in that Budget.



Hon members, I believe that despite all the challenges we faced in

the early days of this third Parliament and in this year - a very

difficult year – this is a very important year that will go down in
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                       PAGE: 119


the history books as not only the 10th year of democracy, but it will

also go down as the year when South Africa was favoured with hosting

the Pan-African Parliament and also won the bid to host the 2010

Soccer World Cup. So really, it has been a good year, albeit a very

hectic and difficult one.



However, I believe that we should take the challenges that came with

this year as the issues that prepare us for the road ahead. And,

hopefully, in doing that, especially those of us who will remain

here between now and when you come back, we will have incorporated

that into the preparations for next year so that, indeed, we improve

not only the operation of Parliament, but also the understanding of

the role of this institution in our society: that is what it is that

our people, when they voted us into Parliament, expected us to come

and achieve here.



So I believe that indeed, we‟ve got to congratulate ourselves that

we have survived and that we have attended to all the business that

we managed to attend to.



Thank you very much, hon members. And on behalf of the Deputy

Speaker and the House Chairpersons, I really wish you a restful

festive season, but also hope that you will come back more

energised. We will really hit the road in 2005.
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                          PAGE: 120


That concludes the business of the day and the sittings for this

year. [Applause.]



The House adjourned at 12:15.

                                __________



               ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS



                         FRIDAY, 12 NOVEMBER 2004

ANNOUNCEMENTS:



National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:



1.   Bills passed by Houses - to be submitted to President for

     assent:



     (1) Bill passed by National Assembly on 12 November 2004:



        (i) Protection of Constitutional Democracy against Terrorist

               and Related Activities Bill. [B 12F - 2003)](National

               Assembly - sec 75)



TABLINGS:



National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
12 NOVEMBER 2004                                        PAGE: 121


1.   The Minister of Housing:



     Report and Financial Statements of the South African Housing

     Fund for the period ended 31 March 2004, including the Reports

     of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003-

     2004, 2000-2003, 1998-2000 and 1994-1998 [RP 154-2004].

				
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