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					24 May 2002                                       Page 1 of 176

                     FRIDAY, 24 MAY, 2002

                             ____



           PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

                             ____



The House met at 09:01.



The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members

to observe a moment of silence for prayers or

meditation.



ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col

000.



                      NOTICES OF MOTION



Mr J H NASH: Madam Speaker, on the next sitting day of

the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:



  That the House -



  (1).notes that thousands of pupils from Langa, Cape

       Town, marched demanding safety in schools and
24 May 2002                                    Page 2 of 176


     raised their plight on school vandalism prevalent

     in the area;



  (2).further notes that this march was organised by the

     Langa Safer School Cluster and supported by the

     Congress of South African Students and the South

     African Democratic Teachers' Union;



  (3).echoes the calls by the pupils to make places of

     learning safe; and



  (4).calls on the community of Langa to work with

     police to ensure that learning materials and

     schools are safe.

[Applause.]



Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice on

behalf of the DP that I shall move on the next sitting

day of the House:



  That the House -



  (1).condemns the scavenger politics being indulged in

     by representatives of the ANC and the New NP;
24 May 2002                                      Page 3 of 176


  (2).places on record that it accepts the word of Tony

     Leon above the word of someone like Jurgen

     Harksen, and notes that unlike President Mbeki's

     evasions when it comes to his dealings with Mr

     Vito Palazzolo, Mr Leon has nothing to hide in

     respect of Mr Harksen or anyone else; and



  (3).regrets that the Premier of the Western Cape is

     being permitted to use taxpayers' money to pay off

     old political scores in the most disreputable

     fashion.



[Interjections.] [Applause.]



Mr B W DHLAMINI: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice

that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move

on behalf of the IFP:



  That the House -



  (1).regrets the treatment meted out by the principal

     and the school governing body to the teacher of

     Simon Primary School, KwaZulu-Natal, Miss
24 May 2002                                     Page 4 of 176


     Sibongile Mkhize, who faces dismissal because she

     revealed her HIV status;



  (2).further regrets that the action of the governing

     body and the principal flies in the face of human

     rights as nobody should be discriminated against

     because of his or her health status;



  (3).applauds this woman for coming out in order to

     destigmatise the disease even as she has

     stigmatised herself now; and



  (4).hopes that the Human Rights Commission, to which

     she has appealed, will rule in her favour and thus

     grant her emotional and psychological reprieve and

     dispel the perception that HIV/Aids renders a

     person a social pariah.

[Applause.]



Ms M M RAMAKABA-LESIEA: Madam Speaker, I give notice

that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move

on behalf of the ANC:



  That the House -
24 May 2002                                      Page 5 of 176


  (1).notes that the Cape High Court sentenced a 42-

     year-old man to an effective 23 years for

     murdering and indecently assaulting an 11-year-old

     girl;



  (2).commends members of the SAPS investigation team

     for bringing this perpetrator to book; and



  (3).welcomes the sentences meted out against this

     criminal.

[Applause.]



Dr W A ODENDAAL: Madam Speaker, on behalf of the New NP

I hereby give notice that I shall move at the next

sitting:



  That the House notes -



  (1).the outrageous and vicious statement by the Chief

     Whip of the DP, the hon Gibson, calling the Desai

     Commission a kangaroo court that is not impartial

     or competent and stating that Judge Desai is

     ``acting more like an ANC branch chairman than

     like an independent investigator'';
24 May 2002                                      Page 6 of 176


  (2).that the DP has always been the party condemning

     other parties and individuals who dare to

     criticise judicial commissions of judges;



  (3).that this unprecedented attack on a judge and

     judicial commission is a clear sign that the DP/DA

     has abandoned yet another core principle of

     liberalism, namely the respect for the judiciary,

     in favour of political expediency; and



  (4).that this slanderous personal attack on the judge

     diminishes the hon Gibson and his party, and

     serves as confirmation of the DP/DA's morally and

     politically corrupt modus operandi.

[Applause.]



Mr S ABRAM: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the

next sitting day of the House I shall move:



  That the House -



  (1).notes -
24 May 2002                                     Page 7 of 176


     (a).the furore caused by the reported use of

         offensive and derogatory words in reference to

         South Africans of Asian descent in a song

         composed by well-known musician Mbongeni

         Ngema;



     (b).that with the advent of our democratic

         Constitution we have progressed immensely on

         the road to nation-building; and



     (c).that the reported unfortunate use of such

         words is divisive and negates the cause of

         nation-building;



  (2).condemns the use of the reported words;



  (3).calls on South Africans to reject all divisive

     forces and to relentlessly pursue the cause of

     patriotism and nation-building; and



  (4).calls on musician Ngema to withdraw the reported

     offensive song and to apologise to South Africans.

     Phansi ngoNgema! [Down with Ngema!]

[Applause.]
24 May 2002                                    Page 8 of 176


Mr J P CRONIN: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the

next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of

the ANC:



  That the House -



  (1).notes the unprecedented attack on Judge Siraj

     Desai by the Chief Whip of the DP, Mr Douglas

     Gibson, in which he attacked the integrity of a

     member of the judiciary, likening the Desai

     Commission to a kangaroo court;



  (2).believes that such an attack is inappropriate,

     unseemly and slanderous, and tarnishes the image

     of his party and this House; and



  (3).calls on the DP to respect the integrity of the

     judiciary, and for Mr Gibson to cease using such

     tactics to divert the attention of the electorate

     from some highly suspect activities of his party

     and its leadership.

[Applause.]
24 May 2002                                      Page 9 of 176


Dr C P MULDER: Mev die Speaker, ek gee hiermee kennis

dat ek by die volgende sitting van die Huis namens die

FF gaan voorstel:



  Dat die Huis -



  (1).daarvan kennis neem dat 'n oorweldigende

     meerderheid, naamlik 90,8%, van die huidige

     studente aan die PU vir CHO hulle ten gunste van

     die behoud van die woord ``Christelik'' in die

     universiteit se naam uitgespreek het in 'n

     referendum wat pas gehou is;



  (2).die universiteit gelukwens met die proses wat

     gevolg is, waar studente in die saak geken is en

     hulle duidelik uitspraak gegee het; en



  (3).die hoop uitspreek dat die universiteit sal besef

     dat die groter gemeenskap van die universiteit,

     naamlik die studente, oud-studente en ouers, geken

     sal moet word in besluitnemingsprosesse wat die

     karakter van die universiteit raak en dat hy nie

     op sy eie hieroor kan besluit nie.

(Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)
24 May 2002                                     Page 10 of 176


[Dr C P MULDER: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the

next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the FF:



  That the House -



  (1).takes note that an overwhelming majority, namely

     90,8%, of the present students at the

     Potchefstroom University for Christian Higher

     Education have expressed that they are in favour

     of retaining the word "Christian" in the name of

     the University at a referendum held recently;



  (2).congratulates the university with the process

     followed, where students were consulted on the

     matter and they could clearly give their opinion;

     and



  (3).expresses the hope that the university will

     realise that the larger community of the

     university, namely the students, ex-students and

     parents will have to be consulted with regards to

     the decision-making process which affects the

     character of the university and that the

     university cannot make autonomous decisions.]
24 May 2002                                   Page 11 of 176


Dr A I VAN NIEKERK: Madam Speaker, I give notice that at

the next sitting I shall move on behalf of the FA:



  That the House -



  (1).takes note that -



     (a).the President has pardoned some farm murderers

         who claimed that the crimes were committed as

         part of the political struggle;



     (b).the agricultural community was lead to believe

         by numerous investigations that farm murders

         were not politically motivated but were rather

         crime-related and done by common criminals;



     (c).due to this contradiction, the implication

         exists that political parties in this House

         were directly or indirectly involved in the

         murders of farmers, their wives and farm

         workers; and



     (d).the pardon of so-called farm murderers on

         political grounds implies that murdering
24 May 2002                                   Page 12 of 176


         people on farms was part of the political

         struggle by political parties present in this

         House; and



  (2).calls on political parties who support the pardon

     to clearly state where they were involved in

     murdering farmers and farm workers as part of the

     political struggle or not.

[Applause.]



Mr P A C HENDRICKSE: Madam Speaker, I give notice that

on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on

behalf of the ANC:



  That the House -



  (1).notes that -



     (a).the Western Cape government has increased its

         housing budget by about R130 million a year

         for the next three years; and
24 May 2002                                   Page 13 of 176


      (b).the province will have R1,2 billion at its

          disposal over this period to help reduce the

          housing shortage;



  (2).believes that this demonstrates the commitment of

      the ANC/New NP-led Government to build a better

      life for all in the Western Cape through the

      provision of affordable housing; and



  (3).welcomes the budgetary allocations for housing in

      the Western Cape, as this will contribute

      positively in addressing the legacy of apartheid

      in the province.

[Applause.]



Mr W J SEREMANE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice

that at the next sitting I shall move on behalf of the

DP:



  That the House -



  (1).recalls how the Munnik Commission of Inquiry was

      used by P W Botha as a witch-hunt to expose the

      financing of ANC activities;
24 May 2002                                     Page 14 of 176


  (2).notes the uncanny similarities between that

     exercise and the Desai Commission; and



  (3).therefore resolves to request the Chief Justice of

     South Africa to consider whether judges should

     continue accepting appointments as chairpersons of

     commissions of inquiry which are clearly

     politically motivated and which could be used for

     the purpose of paying off political scores, the

     result of which is to drag judges into political

     controversy and expose them to public criticism.

[Applause.]



Dr U ROOPNARAIN: Madam Speaker, I give notice that at

the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of

the IFP:



  That the House -



  (1).notes that -



     (a).a recent study in the United States found that

           ``having women in the top management teams
24 May 2002                                   Page 15 of 176


         resulted in higher earnings and greater

         shareholder wealth''; and



     (b).a study by the World Bank concluded that women

         contribute to good governance and that ``where

         the influence of women in public life is

         higher, the level of corruption is lower; and



  (2).should therefore strive to be gender sensitive and

     gender balanced, as the personal quality and

     integrity of woman leaders will make a difference

     in the lives of the citizenry.

[Applause.]



Mr M E GEORGE: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the

next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the ANC:



  That the House -



  (1).notes that Thabang Khumalo, who escaped from

     prison and killed a station commander in Soweto,

     was rearrested by police last night;
24 May 2002                                      Page 16 of 176


  (2).commends the investigating officers, the SAPS and

     all those who made it possible for this criminal

     to be rearrested;



  (3).calls on the justice system to impose an

     appropriate sentence on this cold-blooded killer;

     and



  (4).warns those who follow Thabang Khumalo that the

     law will deal with them harshly should they engage

     in these criminal actions.

[Applause.]



Mr J DURAND: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I

shall move at the next sitting:



  That the House -



  (1).notes that -



     (a).the hon Mr Leon has decided to avoid the media

           and the public with regard to the Harksen

           revelations, indicating that he was part and

           parcel of the funding scandal;
24 May 2002                                   Page 17 of 176


     (b).instead of facing the media and the public to

         clarify his actions, he decided to send in

         more junior colleagues to try to explain the

         unexplainable; and



     (c).the hon Mr Leon is still in hiding and

         avoiding contact with the press and the public

         and therefore has not shed some light on his

         involvement and actions; and



  (2).calls on the DA to -



     (a).instruct their leader to face the media and

         the public; and



     (b).put the hon Mr Leon on leave until all the

         revelations have been fully investigated.

[Applause.]



Ms ANNELIZÉ VAN WYK: Madam Speaker, I shall move on

behalf of the UDM at the next sitting of the House:



  That the House -
24 May 2002                                   Page 18 of 176


  (1).notes the contradictory statements by the Eastern

     Cape Health Department's permanent secretary and

     the Eastern Cape Health MEC, which creates

     confusion regarding whether or not the province's

     eight cash-strapped SA National Tuberculosis,

     Santa,   hospitals have received their subsidies;



  (2).further notes the importance of these hospitals,

     especially in a province that has experienced a TB

     crisis since the 1950s, and duly notes that these

     hospitals run at one-eighth of the cost to the

     state when compared to provincial hospitals;



  (3).expresses concern at the bureaucratic bungling by

     state officials, especially in the light of the

     fact that TB is the province's biggest killer; and



  (4).calls on the Minister of Health to intervene

     urgently and address this issue adequately,

     failing which the Health MEC should resign, as

     many people's lives depend on efficiency and such

     incompetence is unacceptable.
24 May 2002                                   Page 19 of 176


Ms M P COETZEE-KASPER: Madam Speaker, I give notice that

on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on

behalf of the ANC:



  That the House -



  (1).notes that six men escaped unhurt when their 30m

     boat ran aground six sea miles off Kommetjie when

     the engine of their boat failed yesterday;



  (2).further notes that the National Sea Rescue

     Institute (NSRI) rescued the six men and brought

     them to safety; and



  (3).commends the volunteers of the NSRI for saving the

     lives of these six men.

[Applause.]



Ms F HAJAIG: Madam Speaker, I give notice that at the

next sitting I shall move on behalf of the ANC:



  That the House -
24 May 2002                                    Page 20 of 176


  (1).notes that the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs,

     the hon Aziz Pahad, arrived with a South African

     Government delegation in Japan on Tuesday to

     establish a formal framework for discussion set to

     begin soon between the two countries;



  (2).further notes that the delegation includes senior

     officials from the Departments of Foreign Affairs,

     Health, Trade and Industry and of Arts, Culture,

     Science and Technology;



  (3).believes that formal trade relations, cultural and

     social exchange programmes between the two

     countries will enhance people-to-people

     relationships; and



  (4).wishes the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, the

     hon Aziz Pahad, and his delegation good luck in

     their mission.

[Applause.]



Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Madam Speaker, on a point of

order: I have been requested by the backbenchers of the

IFP to raise the fact that because of the hot air coming
24 May 2002                                   Page 21 of 176


from both sides, they are getting cooked back there.

[Laughter.]



                     LESOTHO ELECTIONS



                     (Draft resolution)



Mr F BHENGU: Madam Speaker, I move without notice on

behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party:



  That the House -



  (1).notes that -



     (a).the people of Lesotho will go to the polls on

         Saturday, 25 May 2002; and



     (b).the South African Government will send an

         elections observer team to Lesotho to observe

         the elections;



  (2).calls on the people of Lesotho to -



     (a).go to the polls; and
24 May 2002                                        Page 22 of 176


     (b).work towards ensuring that the results of

          these elections are a credible expression of

          the will of the people of Lesotho.



Agreed to.



             BAFANA BAFANA'S VICTORY OVER TURKEY



                     (Draft Resolution)



Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, I hereby move without

notice:



  That the House -



  (1).celebrates with Bafana Bafana on their 2-0 win

     over Turkey to clinch the Reunification Cup;



  (2).congratulates the South African team on their

     inspirational performance; and



  (3).assures them that the whole of South Africa is

     behind them as they begin their World Cup

     campaign.
24 May 2002                                   Page 23 of 176


Agreed to.



                     AFRICA UNITY DAY



                     (Draft Resolution)



Mr F BHENGU: Madam Speaker, I move without notice on

behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party:



  That the House -



  (1).notes that tomorrow, 25 May, is Africa Unity Day;



  (2).believes that the unity of Africa is a critical

     foundation stone for the development of our

     country and region, and for Africa to take its

     rightful place in the international community; and



  (3).pledges to work for the unity, peace, prosperity

     and development of the African continent.



Agreed to.
24 May 2002                                     Page 24 of 176


Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, there is certainly no

objection. We have no problem with the motion at all.

But, the general convention of the House is that if one

proposes a motion without notice, it is on behalf of the

House and not on behalf of a political party.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Yes, hon member, it is on

behalf of the House. What the hon member is saying is

that he is standing in for the Chief Whip of the

Majority Party to move the motion on behalf of the

House. [Interjections.]



 EXTENSION OF DATE FOR FILLING OF VACANCY IN COMMISSION

                   FOR GENDER EQUALITY



                   (Draft Resolution)



Mr F BHENGU: Madam Speaker, on behalf of the Chief Whip

of the Majority Party, I move the draft resolution

printed in his name on the Order Paper, as follows:



That, notwithstanding the resolution adopted on 20 March

2002, the date by which the Ad Hoc Committee on Filling

of Vacancy in Commission for Gender Equality must
24 May 2002                                      Page 25 of 176


complete its task be extended from 24 May 2002 to 24

June 2002.



Agreed to.



                   APPROPRIATION BILL



Debate on Vote No 14 - Arts, Culture, Science and

Technology:



The MINISTER OF ARTS, CULTURE, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY:

Madam Speaker, my colleagues in this House, visitors who

have come to participate as this important Vote is

debated, the young people of our country whom I see up

there in the galleries - I am very happy that they are

here this morning - all the ladies and gentlemen present

who work for the Government, the press and the

administrative staff of our Parliament, I consider this

an excellent time to introduce the Budget Vote for my

Ministry. The month of May has been memorable indeed for

culture and science. It has been a month of homecomings,

a gathering to the hearth.
24 May 2002                                      Page 26 of 176


We have welcomed back two travellers in space and time -

travellers whose rather different experiences capture

our diversity, travellers who, in many ways, embody our

national motto: !Ke E: /Xarra //Ke   [Unity in

diversity]. But more than this links these travellers.

Their respective journeys speak to both science and

culture, and, beyond this, to ethics and values.



The first traveller is known as Sarah Baartman, a name

given to this slave woman by her owners, certainly not

the name by which her own people knew her. Sarah

Baartman is home at last. Her long walk to dignity is

nearly over. Sarah Baartman's life and death epitomise

the wrongs of the particular colonialism that our part

of the globe was subjected to. Identified as an object

of curiosity by an English surgeon, Sarah was lured to

Europe, there to be paraded as a supposed freak and used

as an object of sexual pleasure. She died impoverished

in Paris at the beginning of the century that saw the

emergence of the eugenics movement, which spewed forth

theories of race and superiority, and in which the

genesis of Nazi ideology and our own apartheid system

was laid.
24 May 2002                                     Page 27 of 176


After complex negotiations with the French government -

negotiations, that required the passage of a special law

in their National Assembly - Sarah Baartman was welcomed

back to the land of her forebears. We express our thanks

to the Presidency and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs

for their work in this regard. Particular recognition is

due to my colleague Mrs Brigitte Mabandla for

spearheading this initiative and to Prof Tobias for his

assistance, freely provided over many years, and in

particular for his leadership in negotiations with Prof

Henry de Lumley of the Musee de L'Homme in Paris. Our

appreciation is also extended to the people of France

for upholding their national credo.



The fuelling of racial divisiveness is something that we

shall always resist, and the vigour with which we have

pursued the rights of Ms Baartman is testimony to that.

It is our intention, finally, to inter Sarah Baartman

with honour and dignity next Women's Day, 9 August 2002.

[Applause.] We respect our human and cultural diversity.

We would ask and expect others to do the same. Sarah has

travelled home through time.
24 May 2002                                      Page 28 of 176


The other traveller who came home safely is our start-up

innovator, Mark Shuttleworth, the space traveller. His

journey was different. Mark was not abducted; he paid

his way. It is a tribute to his personal energy and the

education system that nurtured him that he also earned

the respect of the space professionals with whom he

worked. I would like to welcome Mark Shuttleworth home.

He has served as an inspiration with his own special

brand of audacity.



In our context, I would prefer to think of it in terms

of accountability. Cabinet has declared its commitment

towards research and technology development as an

important component of economic growth. My department is

now finalising the national strategy for research and

development that is based on a number of new technology

missions. Alongside support for existing research

portfolios in health, minerals and agriculture, we wish

to launch specific thrusts in biotechnology and

information technology, and see a concerted drive to

harness a range of technologies toward poverty

reduction. The strategy will be informed by the

identification of objective indicators that will allow

careful monitoring and assessment of performance.
24 May 2002                                      Page 29 of 176


Since 1994 we have nurtured and safeguarded the African

continent's remarkable science, engineering and

technology capability, which resides mainly in South

Africa. The period of transition marked the removal of

the technology missions that dominated research and

development in the 1970s and 1980s. Military dominance,

energy self-sufficiency and an aggressive nuclear

programme were the critical missions. South Africa has

now beaten its Redistribution and Development swords

into plough shears, focusing on health, household foods,

food security, advanced manufacturing and human resource

development. These are practical outcomes of public

science in support of a better quality of life for all

and a robust, competitive and thriving economy.



As I have reported in earlier years, the science system

has been extensively reviewed and many parts are now

world class. In the millennial year 2000, President

Mbeki received the output of the research and technology

foresight, which covered the future technology

challenges in sectors of critical importance to the

economy and our society.
24 May 2002                                   Page 30 of 176


At the Cabinet lekgotla in January this year, we were

requested to produce a national research and development

strategy to address critical issues for the future of

the country. The science and technology system of South

Africa, as robust as it sometimes appears, was designed

for five million people rather than the true figure of

40 million.



With the removal of the apartheid technology missions

between 1990 and 1994, Government R&D spending decreased

significantly. This Government has maintained investment

in real terms, but new missions and new resources are

critical to the future of South Africa. Both Government

and the private sector need to do more. It would be

premature to elaborate on the full scope of the strategy

that we will present to Government during the next

quarter, but the strategic analysis is clear: knowledge

economies need sustained high levels of Government R&D

and require innovation partnerships with the private

sector to stimulate and sustain wealth creation.



As we reflect on the challenge of serving all our

people, we celebrate the leadership of institutions like

the iThemba Laboratories - iThemba Labs, as it is
24 May 2002                                      Page 31 of 176


called. Many of the members might remember it as the

National Accelerator Centre based in Faure in the

Western Cape. The commitment and energy of this national

facility in working across universities and technikons

to produce students, mentor learners and continue to

strengthen science and health programmes is a credit to

the highest values of the scientific enterprise and

community. [Applause.]



Our science councils and national facilities should not

just be encouraged to follow this path, but should be

specifically mandated to educate and train more

scientists and engineers in the years to come within the

more flexible and responsive tertiary education system

we intend to build.



The strategy we intend to present to Cabinet will

achieve significant growth rates in the number of new

young scientists for South Africa. Where practical, we

intend to draw back to the country those researchers and

engineers who left our shores because they believed they

had reached the ceiling of their personal development.

For those who remain abroad, we have developed

initiatives such as the SA Skills Network Abroad,
24 May 2002                                   Page 32 of 176


commonly know as Sansa, hosted by the National Research

Foundation. Sansa is developing a committed diaspora

that retains positive intellectual and emotional links

to South Africa.



We are going to give special attention to technikons to

strengthen their technology support for SMMEs. We are

expanding the Tsumisano Technology Stations Programme,

partly funded by European money, and the Godisa

innovation and incubator programme, which is one of our

partnerships with the Department of Trade and Industry

and the European Union. The EU is providing support and

proving to be a valuable partner in these projects.



As Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology, I

was very honoured to launch, during March, in Cape Town,

the report on 10 years of research co-operation between

the EU and the SADC community, together with the new

ambassador to South Africa, the hon Michael Lake. Adding

to the significance of the occasion was the presence of

the African, Caribbean and the Pacific nations'

Secretary-General, the hon Mr Kulungani.
24 May 2002                                     Page 33 of 176


The critical role of science, technology and innovation

to achieve our objectives in Nepad and in the World

Summit on Sustainable Development must not be

underestimated. Our purposeful efforts to address

poverty and the burden of disease will be strengthened

if we avoid being passive recipients of the technologies

and knowledge of others, and become full partners in

achieving a knowledge-based economy. This will require

the consistent focus of the athlete achieving the goal,

winning the race.



The success of our science, engineering and technology

week this year convinces me that we are raising the

level of awareness and interest in scientific careers

among our young people. We need to support their dreams

by providing challenging and effective innovation

missions to reduce poverty and, hence, the use of ICT in

our lives, commerce, better use of our natural resources

and build on the increased strengths of our export

industry. The coelacanth, the Southern skies and oceans,

Antarctica, the cradle of humankind and the Cape

floristic kingdom are part of our heritage, but also of

our future.
24 May 2002                                    Page 34 of 176


A new generation of young scientists need to be inspired

by the endless frontiers of scientific endeavour. My

department also focuses on out-of-school educational

initiatives to complement the curriculum in classroom-

based activities of the Department of Education. This is

proving to be a valuable partnership, but we remain

seriously concerned that less than 5% of matriculants

receive university exemptions in maths and science.



I salute the dedicated science and maths teachers and

volunteers who commit to out-of-school programmes in

maths and science to inspire the future Mark

Shuttleworths of our nation. These programmes and the

NGOs who have developed them need increased support. We

need additional creative initiatives to make these

subjects not simply accessible, but exciting and

vibrant. The dedicated efforts of these teachers and

NGOs have paid dividends with hundreds of passes. We now

need them in thousands. [Applause.]



During the past financial year we allocated and tracked

the expenditure of all the poverty relief money

allocated to our department. We are going to ensure that

these programmes move people out of poverty and create
24 May 2002                                   Page 35 of 176


new entrepreneurs and SMMEs. The DACST poverty relief

initiatives spur on craft industries and technology-

based small enterprises, and embrace the use of

resources such as natural fibres for paper-making and

textiles. The intention is that the enterprises becomes

sustainable and continue to create expanding employment

through training and adoption of effective technologies,

as well as effective market development strategies.



If we were asked how we are doing in this regard, the

answer would somewhat have to be circumscribed. Our

spending, which is currently estimated to be 0,7% of

GDP, is low and has been steady at this level for the

past few years. In the early 90s the previous government

wound up major strategic missions in military technology

and energy sufficiency. Accordingly, R&D spending fell.



Today the financial pressures facing higher education,

the brain drain and the absence of a strong R&D driver

are contributing to a dangerous greying of the R&D

workforce. Our capacity as a leading science and

technology player among the emerging economies is being

put at risk, unless we bring our investments in research

and development in line with those of emerging countries
24 May 2002                                   Page 36 of 176


such as Finland, Chile and Korea, which have embraced

their knowledge in terms of the future.



In our globalising economy, where our own multinationals

are shifting their headquarters abroad, we need to

ensure that the quality of life and the research and

business environment are attractive to our researchers

and entrepreneurs from abroad, who will want to come

home and give substance to our national system of

innovation. This is one of the reasons that Government

is pushing the development of a university dedicated to

excellence in the information and communications

technologies. We want to participate in world-class

development and be an attractive place to study and

work. What we do not want is to be subjected to the

mining of our intellectual capital.



Currently significant effort is being put into gaining a

better understanding of three key features of our

national system of innovation. The Human Sciences

Research Council together with the National Advisory

Council on Innovation will by the end of the year have

provided us with hard data on the inputs that go into

our research and development system, the factors
24 May 2002                                      Page 37 of 176


affecting the movement of R & D personnel and the impact

of publicly funded research.



This information will allow for a much better

understanding of what is going into the R & D system and

will form the basis for careful consideration of the

extent to which state funding might increase and where

that increase might be targeted.



The capacity to deploy that funding in accordance with

our goals for national development in part depends on

the quality of leadership in place in the science

councils. I wish to use this opportunity to congratulate

Dr Khotso Mokhele, president of the National Research

Foundation, for the rare feat of acquiring three

honorary doctorates in as many weeks, and also recognise

the new energy that the appointment of Dr Sibusiso

Sibisi as president of the CSIR brings to this

organisation. [Applause.]



Science is one part of our cultural entitlement. I wish

now to turn to the other cultures. My Ministry has been

criticised for apparently spending too little on the

performing arts, for allowing orchestras to go to the
24 May 2002                                   Page 38 of 176


wall and for neglecting the classics. Our policies in

this regard have stood the test of time. We have worked

from the basis that our highly diverse and economically

stratified communities have many interests and varying

abilities to pay for artistic and cultural experience.

Strange, then, is the fact that the number of orchestras

has been rising in the last few years and strange too

that the playhouses are now performing to packed houses,

night after night. Patrons, it seems, are prepared to

pay top rand for what they enjoy.



We have also worked from the basis that an agenda of

redress is appropriate in order to correct bias and

imbalance and to promote nation-building. It is a

pleasure, therefore, to note that the culture Vote is

set to rise by an average of 25% per year over the next

three years.



Our progress in convincing Cabinet collegues of the

dynamic possibilities for the cultural industries has

resulted in these significant budget increases. A total

of R102 million has been allocated over and above our

Medium-Term Expenditure Framework allocation for arts

and culture for the 2002-03 financial year. An amount of
24 May 2002                                     Page 39 of 176


R17 million has been allocated to the transformation of

heritage institutions, R20 million for cultural

industries, R50 million for Freedom Park and R15 million

for a new harbour wall on Robben Island so that the

visitors are not endangered.



It is an even greater pleasure to note the way that the

private sector has worked with Government to give

substance to the vision of the Robben Island Gateway

project and the Robben Island Museum itself. These

facilities are designed to world standards, are well

patronised and serve as a living tribute to the freedom

struggle.



The project that will have the widest impact given its

physical location, is the Freedom Park that is now

taking shape under the guidance of the previous

chairperson of our portfolio committee, the poet and

writer Mongane Wally Serote. Freedom Park will be a

monument to our collective struggle for dignity and

human rights.



Cabinet in 1998 approved this project, which will lead

to the design and construction of a number of
24 May 2002                                   Page 40 of 176


commemorative structures at Salvokop in the capital

city. These structures will celebrate the rich tapestry

of our lives from the earliest times as the cradle of

humankind, through the stone and iron ages and the

agrarian era to the ages of conflict and colonisation.

The struggle for democracy and the present will also be

typified. A sum of R350 million has been allocated to

these works over the MTEF period.



I would like to refer to the language mandate that is

given to us by Cabinet and by the people of this

country. We are in the process of finalising a national

language policy that was carefully developed and tested

with all stakeholders.



However, more importantly, we are busy with a range of

practical interventions in the area of language. I want

to mention a number of projects that are underway to

ensure that language supports personal development and

economic participation.



Members will recall that on 15 March we launched the

Telephone Interpreting Service for South Africa. The

Telephone Interpreting Service for South Africa was
24 May 2002                                   Page 41 of 176


developed in collaboration with PanSALB and the

University of the Free State. Of course, I should say

``dankie mense'' [Thank you, everyone]. [Applause.]



We have also established a film fund, which is located

in the National Film and Video Foundation, and the

allocation for this is R35 million. I do hope that

within a few years we shall have some exceptional

blockbuster feature films coming out of our history,

heritage and experience as a people. [Applause.]



Mrs M A A NJOBE: Madam Speaker, hon Minister of Arts,

Culture, Science and Technology, hon Deputy Minister and

colleagues, allow me to indulge the House on the

experience my family once had at the peak of the

apartheid era.



We had been to Cape Town on a visit and were on our way

back to the Eastern Cape, driving along the N2 highway.

Having learnt about the Cango Caves at school and

suddenly realising how close we were to this famous

South African heritage site, we decided to branch off at

Mossel Bay and drive towards Oudtshoorn.
24 May 2002                                   Page 42 of 176


On arrival at the Cango Caves, and from where we parked

our car, we could visibly see the entrance to the caves.

We were excited at this achievement and at the thought

of what we were about to witness. But, alas! Right there

in front of us was a huge information board on which was

listed the days of the week on which the different

races, ie whites, Indians, Coloureds and Africans, could

visit the caves.



To our disappointment and disgust the day we had chosen

to visit the site was not for visiting by Africans.

Unbelievable! It so happened that the visiting day for

Africans was the following day. There stood a beautiful

hotel nearby and we enquired if we could spend the night

there. No, it was for whites only, we were told.



From the parking ground we could see with envy white

people going in and out of the caves. Could we go as far

as the entrance, at least, we asked. Of course not, we

were reminded. Angry and disgusted at the thought that

it was our colour that prevented us from visiting the

natural heritage site, we drove away.
24 May 2002                                   Page 43 of 176


With the creation of a new Department of Arts, Culture,

Science and Technology since the democratic Government

came into power, South Africa is gradually, step by

step, moving away from her painful past - a past in

which even natural heritage sites could detect racial

differences.



Through the creation of the department, heritage

resources and facilities are not only preserved but are

popularised, democratised and open to all South

Africans, regardless of race, colour or status. The ANC-

led Government created the department because it

recognised that through arts, culture and language

promotion, a sense of national identity and pride would

be cultivated.



Arts and culture are thus a potentially unifying force

in a country that was divided along ethnic and cultural

lines by the apartheid system. Recognising that it is a

foundation for the community and tradition, and that it

can be a powerful vehicle for the transformation of

society, the department aims, amongst other things, to

stimulate, nurture and protect the arts, culture and

heritage of our country.
24 May 2002                                   Page 44 of 176


The activities of the department cover a very wide

range, much wider than many of us imagine, including the

MPs themselves. These activities range from overseeing

and financially supporting community arts centres on the

ground; supporting and developing the music, film and

video industry; establishing cultural industries;

ensuring the preservation of national archives, museums,

libraries and heritage sites; and supporting the work of

the science councils, research, etc.



Comparing the budget allocation to this plethora of

responsibilities and litany of programmes undertaken by

the department, we can safely conclude that the funds

cannot be said to be adequate. The Government does need

to devise a strategy to allocate additional funds if

these noble tasks are to be carried out as expected and

as required. This observation is backed by the fact that

in almost all the presentations on the annual report by

stakeholders to the portfolio committee, the common

complaint was that policies could be better implemented

if more funds were available.



However, it is encouraging to note that despite these

limitations the budget allocation for arts, culture,
24 May 2002                                   Page 45 of 176


science and technology has been revised upwards by

R145,2 million in the current financial year, and R315,5

million in the next financial year. Notable also is the

fact that arts, culture, science and technology spending

dominates the department's budget. One of the new

projects that will benefit from this spending is the

Freedom Park project at Salvokop in Pretoria, which was

mentioned by the Minister. It is an important project

with significant themes, touching on the struggle for

liberation, democracy and nation-building. It is a

project aimed at reflecting the precolonial, colonial,

apartheid and postapartheid eras, phases of

democratisation and the development of the South African

nation. It is gratifying, therefore, to note that this

museum will include the women's struggles as well.

[Applause.]



It is a project that promises to involve the whole

nation in its entirety. Thus the appointment of Comrade

Dr Wally Serote, the chairperson of the portfolio

committee since 1994 up to April this year, to oversee

the development of a national project of this magnitude,

could not have come at a better moment. On behalf of the

portfolio committee, I wish to congratulate Dr Serote on
24 May 2002                                      Page 46 of 176


his appointment and wish him success in this new

challenging deployment. We do not doubt his ability to

face up to this challenge. We trust that the allocation

that has been given to the project over the medium term

will see the project started.



We acknowledge the additional funding to the cultural

industries. Given enough financial clout, this

directorate can go a long way in creating jobs,

alleviating poverty and consequently reducing crime.

Much work has been done in promoting South African

crafts, including exhibitions abroad. The department has

a list of these cultural industries and their locations

in the provinces. It would therefore be helpful if the

MPs could visit those located in their constituencies to

find out how they are progressing.



The department plans to establish craft and music expert

councils. This will not only stimulate the creation of

more jobs for our artists, but will also promote South

Africa's cultural image internationally, and so will the

participation of the department in the World Summit for

Sustainable Development, the WSSD imbizo, in August and
24 May 2002                                   Page 47 of 176


September this year. We hope that artists and crafters

from rural areas will not be left out.



With regard to the preservation of archives and museums,

I believe drastic transformation needs to take place, in

particular in terms of the content of these

institutions. These are still dominated by information

and artefacts from the old order. There is a need to

broaden the content to reflect today's South African

society.



In addition there is a need for more clarity on the

governance of archives. The role of the provinces and

local government needs to be clearly defined and

supported financially. There is also a dire need for

capacity-building in this sector.



The Bureau of Heraldry, though, is to be congratulated

on its success in creating a distinct South African

idiom, depicting the diversity of South African society

as seen in the production of the new coat of arms,

emblems such as the flag, medals and so on. With the

PanSALB legislation in place and an increasing budget
24 May 2002                                    Page 48 of 176


allocation over the medium term, the linguistic

diversity of the country should develop progressively.



We wish to congratulate the department on the strategic

plan it has set up to guide its programmes over the next

few years. We acknowledge the developments in science

and technology in our country and the work done under

very challenging circumstances, from the erection of the

South African Large Telescope, or Salt, in Sutherland to

the work currently being done by the science councils at

the World Summit on Sustainable Development.



It is important that South African science is showcased

also within Africa through participation in Nepad.

Developing our role in Africa is certainly of paramount

importance. We note the increased focus on Africa's

indigenous knowledge systems and their link to global

science and technology systems. We are aware of the

responsibilities these choices carry with them, but

there is a need to address key indicators in the medium

term such as the number of researchers as a percentage

of the total workforce, the development of human capital

in the indigenous knowledge system and the critical area

of public understanding of science, engineering and
24 May 2002                                    Page 49 of 176


technology in order to close the ever widening gap

between the rich and the poor.



In his state of the nation address, President Mbeki

stressed the centrality of mathematics and science as

part of the human resources development strategy.

Currently, the number of learners who pass mathematics

and science in Grade 12 is very low. The Minister has

also alluded to this fact.



The key challenge of the department, however, is to

manage such a diverse integrated portfolio with all its

potential and challenges.



In conclusion, may we congratulate the Minister, the

Deputy Minister and the department on having

successfully negotiated and effected the return to South

Africa, of the remains of Ms Saartjie Baartman, thus

ending centuries of humiliation of black people by

previous colonial powers. [Applause.] To us, Saartjie

remains our national heritage and should be treated as

such.
24 May 2002                                     Page 50 of 176


May I also thank the director-general and his staff for

the co-operation given me thus far as the new

chairperson of the portfolio committee and also my

colleagues, the members of the committee, for their co-

operation and understanding. Please let us not forget

what the Minister has informed us about, namely Africa

Freedom Day tomorrow. [Applause.]



Mnr S E OPPERMAN: Mev die Speaker, ek weet nou nie waar

die agb Marthinus van Schalkwyk gaan wegkruip het nie

... [Tussenwerpsels] ... maar ek wou vir hom gesê het:

As Harksen soveel geld gegee het, en as Leon geweet het,

en as Bester geweet het, en as Morkel geweet het, dan

vind ek dit baie vreemd dat Marthinus van Schalkwyk niks

geweet het, en dit terwyl hy destyds die adjunkleier van

die DA was. [Tussenwerpsels.] Hy was ook

hooffondsinsamelaar en 'n top man in die Nuwe NP.

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)



[Mr S E OPPERMAN: Madam Speker, I don't know where the

honourable Marthinus van Schalkwyk is hiding ...

[Interjections] ... but I wanted to tell him: If Harksen

gave so much money, and if Leon had known, and if Bester

had known, and if Morkel had known, then I find it very
24 May 2002                                   Page 51 of 176


strange that Marthinus van Schalkwyk did not know

anything, and this while he was still deputy leader of

the DA. [Interjections.] He was also the main funds

collector and a top man in the New NP.]



Mr A C NEL: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order.

This, I believe, is a debate on Arts, Culture, Science

and Technology, unless the speaker is versing us in

forensic science. [Interjections.] I do not see the

relevance of his comments.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Well, let us give the hon

member a chance. He might just make the connection.

[Laughter.]



Mr S E OPPERMAN: Madam Speaker, it is part of the drama.



Ek het groot waardering vir die waardes wat die

Departement van Kuns, Kultuur, Wetenskap en Tegnologie

hom ten doel gestel het, naamlik professionalisme,

bekwaamheid, verantwoordbaarheid en deursigtigheid. Dit

is die tipe waardes wat pas by almal wat ernstig is om

op 'n inklusiewe wyse uitdrukking te gee aan die

skeppende potensiaal wat in ons almal is. Hierdie
24 May 2002                                      Page 52 of 176


waardes is onverhandelbaar. As ons die kuns en kultuur

van al die komponente van ons reënboognasie aan almal

blootstel, behoort dit 'n belangrike instrument te wees

om binne ons nuwe demokrasie nasiebou te bevorder.

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)



[I have great appreciation for the values which the

Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology has

as object, namely professionalism, competence,

responsibility and lucidity. These are the kinds of

values befitting everyone serious about giving

expression in an inclusive way to the creative potential

in all of us. These values are non-negotiable. If we

expose the art and culture of all the components of our

rainbow nation to everyone, it should be an important

instrument to promote nation-building in our new

democracy.]



Although the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and

Technology's budget has more than doubled from 1995 to

2002, there was a downward trend in the arts and culture

programme since 1995-96, reaching its lowest percentage

point in 2000-01. The overall budget for Arts and

Culture increases from R362 million in 2001-02, to R495
24 May 2002                                      Page 53 of 176


million this year - an increase of 36,5%. This is by far

the largest increase this programme has seen since 1994,

but we must remember it was from a lower base.



In spite of this increase, most of our heritage

organisations, with their professional and export

employees, are still underfunded. Some institutions have

not had their budgets increased by a cent in eight

years. Others have had an increase not even remotely

close to keeping in touch with inflation, while others

have had their budgets slashed dramatically, reducing

their capacity to provide sound, professional services.



There was also a significant decline in infrastructure,

companies, capacity and jobs over the last number of

years in the area of performing arts - top singers,

choreographers, dancers, musicians and actors are

leaving the industry.



Are we really serious about our mission to stimulate, to

nurture and to protect arts and culture when there is an

annual increase in the number of jobs in DACST, with

substantial improvement in remuneration, while jobs are
24 May 2002                                      Page 54 of 176


shed in the arts and culture institutions, which are

doing the cultural work?



The ongoing drama around the State Theatre is not

enhancing our vision for transparency and

accountability. After five years of investigation by

various investigating agencies no money has been

recovered and no one has been held accountable. Meredy

Wixley and Arlette Franks, who lost their jobs because

they blew the whistle on irregularities, are still out

in the cold. There may be many reasons for the delay,

but five years is a very long time and speculations are

rife about the reasons for the delay. The time has now

arrived to settle this matter once and for all so that

some people can get on with their lives.



We appreciate all the initiatives for economic

development and poverty reduction. But I believe there

is still a lot to be done to realise our full potential.

[Applause.]



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS, CULTURE, SCIENCE AND

TECHNOLOGY: Madam Speaker, the hon the Minister, and
24 May 2002                                      Page 55 of 176


colleagues, I wish to start my speech with a poem.

Kindly indulge me.



  I've come to take you home -

  home, remember the veld?

  the lush green grass beneath the big oak trees

  the air is cool there and the sun doesn't burn.



  I have made your bed at the foot of the hill,

  your blankets are covered in buchu and mint,

  the proteas stand in yellow and white

  and the water in the stream chuckles sing-songs

  as it hobbles along over the little stones.



  I have come to wrench you away

  away from the poking eyes

  of the man-made monster

  who lives in the dark

  with his clutches of imperialism

  who dissects your body bit by bit

  who likens your soul to that of Satan

  and declares himself the ultimate god!



  I have come to take you home
24 May 2002                                      Page 56 of 176


  where I will sing for you

  for you have brought me peace.



This is an extract from a poem written in celebration of

Sarah Baartman by Diana Ferrus, a wonderful and

compassionate woman I am privileged to have met.

[Applause.] Regrettably, Diana Ferrus is not able to be

with us today as she is attending a funeral in

Worcester. The poem stands as a record in French

legislative history, since the translated verses are

part of the enabling law that released Sarah Baartman

from her two centuries of captive humiliation.



There are others whose role in this homecoming must be

recognised. In France, I would like to mention Anne

Sophie Parisot, personal assistant to Senator Nicholas

About, who first saw this poem on a local website, and

brought it to the notice of the senator; Senator

Nicholas About, who sponsored the necessary Bill, and

the Minister of Research, Minister Roger-Gerard

Schwartzenberg, who made a very moving speech at the

handing-over ceremony, affirming the right to human

dignity.
24 May 2002                                   Page 57 of 176


On the South African side, we recognise both the former

and present ambassadors to France, that is, Madam

Barbara Masekela and the present ambassador to France,

who is Ms Skweyiya, who, in fact, alerted us to the

debate earlier this year; Professor Tobias for his

effort and persistence, and to the National Khoisan

Consultative Conference for its guidance in this matter.



We are now preparing for the interment of Sarah

Baartman's remains. I am pleased to inform the House

that the consultation with key stakeholders such as the

National Khoisan Consultative Conference is proceeding

well. I am confident that the interment of Sarah

Baartman will be successful.



The return of Sarah Baartman is about affirming our

commitment to human rights. Similarly, the change of the

old symbols and orders to new ones affirms our history

and helps us build an inclusive nation in recognition of

all our human rights.



To this end, in the area of heraldry, we have made

significant progress in the past seven years in defining

who we are and what we stand for as a nation. As we all
24 May 2002                                      Page 58 of 176


know, on Freedom Day this year, the new national orders

were inaugurated: The Order of Mapungubwe, the Order of

the Baobab and the Order of the Companions of O R Tambo.

I wish to take this opportunity to thank the Presidency

for its guidance. I wish, also, to reiterate the

commendation made by the President to Gold Mametja in

creating the design for the new national orders.



Let me now turn to the challenges the department is

addressing in the area of cultural industry. As the

Minister pointed out, a skills development training

strategy has been developed for the craft, film, design

and music sectors together with the Department of

Labour. What I really need to say now is to urge all

interested parties to help us make this a success.



In the area of music, the Legal Aid Board is in

discussions with us, and we are looking at the

possibility of the Wits Law Clinic being used to launch

Help for Musicians.



During the last financial year, the department has

actively promoted the use of new knowledge in support of

communities and groups that wish to develop craft and
24 May 2002                                      Page 59 of 176


technology-based businesses. Jobs have been created in

the area of paper-making, as the Minister has indicated,

as well as soap production and craft industries, to

mention but a few.



These industries are based on the use of renewable

resources on a sustainable basis. They are intended to

assist the participants to become more independent

entrepreneurs. Design is as important in the

technological process as it is in craft development. In

this regard I am pleased to note the excellent

collaboration that has emerged across Government

departments that are working together. These are the

Departments of Education, Water Affairs and Forestry,

and Minerals and Energy, as well as the SABS and CSIR.



The importance of design is now recognised through the

annual South African Design Week. The department is

underwriting all these collaborative initiatives. In the

area of technology, we have established technology

stations. T[s]homisano, meaning partnership or co-

operation, has been chosen as a brand name for this

programme. It provides support to South African

enterprises by facilitating access to the expertise and
24 May 2002                                     Page 60 of 176


capacity of technikons via the intermediary services of

technology stations. It will strengthen and accelerate

the interaction between technikons, as the Minister has

indicated, and small and medium enterprises.



In the first round initiated in 1999, our department

selected four technikons for the establishment of

technology stations, and these are Technikon Pretoria in

the field of electronics and electrical engineering,

Technikon Free State, in Bloemfontein, in metal value

adding, Technikon North West, Garankuwa in chemicals and

the Mangosuthu Technikon Durban in chemicals.



In the second round, the department selected three more

technikons in February, and these are Vaal Triangle in

the field of composites, Port Elizabeth Technikon in the

field of automotive components and Peninsula Technikon

in the field of textiles and clothing. We have also

initiated another technology programme. The Minister

referred to this one. This is called Godisa. We began

funding this programme in the year 2001. Currently,

there are eight programmes - four of these are fully

functional and the other four are new centres which have
24 May 2002                                   Page 61 of 176


just received their funds. All centres are at various

stages of development.



To give an example of the impact of these programmes in

South Africa and in our communities, we will use the

Zenzele Technology Demonstration Centre, TDC, which is

based at Mintek. The purpose of TDC is to provide

technical and research support to small-scale mining

enterprises resulting in accelerated business growth,

skills development and job creation.



The centre helps enterprises to compete successfully in

their market. In the approximately six months that the

centre has been in operation, 35 initiatives have

already been undertaken in Gauteng, Northern Cape,

Mpumalanga, Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal provinces.

These initiatives involved approximately 537 individual

miners, 96% to 97% of which are black and 20% women. I

must say that this project is, politically, being led by

the Minister of Minerals and Energy.



During the course of the current financial year, the

department will allocate R50 million to the first phase

of the national biotechnology strategy. This strategy is
24 May 2002                                    Page 62 of 176


not intended to serve a narrow set of interests for a

favoured few. South Africa's biotechnology strategy has

been strengthened with a public consultation process

that has endorsed our own view. Biotechnology has great

potential to serve the needs of all South Africans.



A study tour of Cuba in January and consideration of the

strategies of countries such as Brazil, Malaysia and

Nigeria reinforced this assessment. Of all recent

technological development, biotechnology directly

connects with the rich indigenous knowledge and

extensive biological resources of our subcontinent. This

creates opportunities to reduce the burden of disease,

improve food security and establish industries that will

generate a new wealth.



I wish to say that there is concern that there has been

very little proper assessment of the current

contribution and future potential of women in science

and technology in our country. However, investigations

of the authorship of scientific publications by South

African women shows little progress over the past ten

years. Women who are leaders in their fields are

positive and effective role models, but some domains
24 May 2002                                   Page 63 of 176


remain dominantly male. In others, there has, it seems,

been some progress, or so we are told. This domain needs

positive attention, proper investigation and proactive

planning.



We have therefore initiated the establishment of a

reference group of leading women in science and

technology to give positive impetus to initiatives to

redress the persistent gender imbalances within our

national system of innovation, which all too easily

becomes the accepted norm.



In the context of global and regional issues affecting

women in science and technology, we will work to ensure

strengthened contributions by women within the national

system of innovation, and address the levels of

participation in maths and science by girls in our

schools.



Let me take this opportunity to congratulate Dr Serote

on his appointment at Freedom Park and also MaNjobe on

her appointment as chairperson of the portfolio

committee, and to say to all of us ``Happy Africa Day!''

- I am not sure if we say that. Let us reflect on our
24 May 2002                                      Page 64 of 176


commitment as a nation to helping to rebuild the

socioeconomic infrastructure of our continent.

[Applause.]



Mr M F CASSIM: Chairperson, let me begin by first of all

congratulating Dr Mokhehle, Dr Sibisi, Dr Wally Serote,

Mark Shuttleworth and MaNjobe on their various

achievements. Secondly, I wish to ditto everything that

the Minister, Deputy Minister and MaNjobe had to say.



As far as Mr Opperman is concerned, I think, in respect

of the State Theatre, he should know very well that in

the dying days of the apartheid regime, the State

Theatre made itself into a section 21 company, precisely

because it did not want the new state to oversee its

affairs. No wonder it was overtaken by financial

disasters of its own making, for which the department

could not, in any way, be blamed.   As far as we now

concerned, it has become part of the national arts

institutes and therefore control will be reasserted.



This is the eighth time that I have had the privilege,

on behalf of the IFP, to address the House on this Vote.

Over these eight years, the department has made enormous
24 May 2002                                      Page 65 of 176


progress with a limited budget. Even today that budget

stands at just three quarters of a billion rand.



Their great achievement is especially true in the area

of science and technology. The use of strategic

investments in science, therefore, is the only big

option that is open to us and the department is using

that option. Thanks to our being an open democracy, we

have as a country established links and bilateral

relations with many highly industrialised friendly

countries. This compensates somewhat for the limited

investments that we ourselves as a Government are making

in science and technology.



In other areas like the arts, the department operates at

arm's length so that the state may never again impose a

new hegemony on our diverse people with our diverse

languages, beliefs and cultures. We have no way around

that. At the same time, the department has to realise

the full potential of both arts and science in the

social and economic development that has to be

undertaken. For this reason, the promotion of job

creation in the cultural industries has become an area
24 May 2002                                     Page 66 of 176


of central focus, and must remain an area of central

focus for many years.



This focus is also supported by the medium-term

allocations in the budget for cultural industries. There

is no doubt, none whatsoever, that this is the way to

go.



Our oversight and monitoring functions must therefore

ensure that all who are entrusted with the

responsibility of promoting job creation, through the

cultural industries, are given substantial autonomy and

even financial incentives in terms of the PFMA to

deliver. We cannot countenance minimal outputs here.

After all, the Cultural Industries Growth Strategy was

initiated in 1997 and, after five years, we should as a

country be capitalising on the truly vast economic

potential of the craft, music, film and publishing

industries.



Let me underscore the enormous emphasis we as

parliamentarians are placing on the cultural industries,

as the Ministry does, to answer the cries of the

jobless. The department, through public-private
24 May 2002                                   Page 67 of 176


partnerships, the Music Industry Task Team and the Print

Industry Cluster Council, has the necessary avenues for

job creation and urban regeneration.



Our collective mandate is to deliver adequately on the

promise of a better life for all. We therefore need to

look deeply at what is happening in our cities, towns,

villages and rural areas. Eight years have passed. The

number of beneficiaries from our programme should be

rising incrementally and significantly. The councils and

the agencies that derive funds from the department

should begin to show quantitatively and qualitatively

what is being done to bring about a better life for all.



The fundamentals in our country and our economy are

sound, but jobs still continue to be shed. Four out of

ten of employable people, according to analysts, are

consistently out of jobs. My own eyes reveal the same

truth.



I accept that the half a billion rand the department has

for arts and culture is inadequate for what needs to be

done. There is no argument about that. The question,

though, is whether the best strategies are being
24 May 2002                                     Page 68 of 176


employed and whether the councils are performing the

near miracles which we expect them to perform. Now we in

South Africa are a unique partnership and together, as

Team South Africa we can scale the tallest mountains.

President Thabo Mbeki has issued a clarion call for the

African Renaissance, Nepad and Vukuzenzele. We should

rally by going beyond the call of duty.



But are we rallying? As consumers, in this nation, do we

support our home-grown products. I believe that we

should follow the example of the way in which the French

support their culture and French cinema. South Africa

must indeed take a leaf from France's book, and in a

hurry. Our portfolio committee is ready and willing to

support the Ministry in whichever way we can.



We need to dramatically increase the output of our

films, videos and documentaries through joint ventures

and other strategies. We have the technical base. We

also have the great stories, as the Minister has

indicated, of singular success in avoiding catastrophic

wars and of engaging in the greater social experiment in

the history of the world. These stories must be told.

Burkina Faso, Australia, India and other countries are
24 May 2002                                   Page 69 of 176


performing miracles, and we should do the same. Members

of this House and all those who are in politics will

need to mobilise our cinemagoers to spread their rands

so that our own home-grown products begin to enjoy

success.



Now let me turn my attention to music. In music, also,

we have an enormous depth of talent, a depth that is

equal to the platinum mines of South Africa. Some of our

underutilised universities could be used as performing

schools and recording studios. The phenomenal success of

the new opera Princess Magogo kaDinuzulu indicates the

wonderful potential that still has to be realised in

South Africa. Let us look at the experience of India in

developing the talents of its people, both in the film

and music industries, and let us see what we can do to

catch up.



Another area that still remains to be developed is the

archeological sites. While the Cradle of Humankind is

being developed, we need to give consideration to the

other significant sites that we have. The R6 billion-odd

of investments that we have in our museums also need to

be utilised more economically in order that that R6
24 May 2002                                      Page 70 of 176


billion could bring investments into the museums. I wish

to suggest, once again, that we should have a floating

exhibition of some of our artefacts in co-operation and

in conjunction with the navy.



I would now like to turn to the major chain outlets of

our country like Pick 'n Pay, Woolworths, Spar and so

on. I believe that these retailers should be encouraged,

out of patriotism, to set aside about 1% to 2% of their

total floor space for South African artefacts and

products. If we look at the glassware and many

ornamental products that are sold in these stores, we

find that they are all sourced from outside. We need to

give our own small SMMEs an opportunity. I believe that

through engaging these major outlets in discussion, we

would be able to ensure that there is greater economic

growth in our country.



Let us also briefly look at what we spend on the

criminal justice system. Correctional Services in South

Africa uses up R7 billion, Safety and Security uses over

R19 billion and Justice takes R4 billion. If one adds on

top of that what many of our business people and private

residents pay for private security, then the amount
24 May 2002                                   Page 71 of 176


exceeds the R30 billion that the Government is already

spending. What do we spend on arts and science against

the R30 billion that is spent on the criminal justice

system? We spend a mere R1,36 billion. It does not make

good economic sense to be merely spending on that end

and not bolstering our sciences, arts and economics.



I also wish to appeal to the Minister to explore the

possibility of a South Africa shop like the Australia

shop. In London, New York and Paris the South African

flag is already well branded. The Minister and his

colleagues in Cabinet could discuss the viability of

such a move. The other areas for development are the new

African cultural villages along the arterial routes;

central markets in the cities which focus on cultural

products, like those found in Malaysia; restaurants that

also offer major cultural events eg Marrakech in

Morocco. Finally, I would like to repeat the call for a

South African experience along the lines of the Maltese

experience in Malta.



The budget document before us recognises the need to

strengthen the crucial links between strategic planning,

budgeting, monitoring and, most significantly, reporting
24 May 2002                                   Page 72 of 176


on service delivery. These are indeed the crucial links.

We have made it compulsory for many of the councils to

report to Parliament and to make sure that they are

delivering. If service delivery takes place at a speedy

and optimal level, we shall have the endorsement of the

voters, and the valid argument for substantially

increasing the budget of this department and of the very

councils that we are talking about. If not, the voters

are going to regard us as failures and the Minister of

Finance will remain as close-fisted as he has been. We,

in the portfolio committee, promise not to fail.



The IFP supports the Vote. We support the programmes and

the targets. We are quite unhappy though that the

Government investment in R & D is declining. This,

surely, is a mistake that must be taken up in Cabinet

and elsewhere. We support a steady and incremental

growth in R & D in order that we can remain competitive

in global terms. I would like to say to colleagues here

that, on this thing, we cannot fail the country. We

request the public sector managers, in terms of the

Public Finance Management Act, to use the greater

autonomy and flexibility now given to them to deliver as
24 May 2002                                      Page 73 of 176


effectively as possible. They know that we will play

ball with them. That is what we have done.



We also remain very anxious about mathematics and

science in our schools, and the Minister pointed this

out. The number of postgraduate and doctoral students

taking up mathematics and science at university is

absolutely unacceptable.



Universities that want to retain their autonomy have

failed themselves in not attracting an adequate number

of postgraduate and doctoral students for these

subjects. As country, we have to make sure that these

things are put right.



When it comes to language, we also need to ensure that

we develop vocabulary along all the languages, in order

that South Africa can become a multilingual society in

which language becomes a strength and not a weakness.

The inability of South Africa to look at vocabulary

development is impeding that progress.



Finally, in all of the laboratories, theatres,

observatories, museums, archives, councils, departments,
24 May 2002                                   Page 74 of 176


Parliament, etc, this is an area via which we can ensure

that South Africa becomes a significant player in Africa

and the world, so that Nepad can be a great success.

[Applause.]



Mrs N D MBOMBO: Chairperson, hon Minister and fellow

members, a long time ago when they were in power, the

previous government built toilets in the veld which were

never used by anybody. Let us not make our centres like

that.



The department's predicament is that arts centres fall

under provincial governments, but through Minmec there

should be a co-ordination so they should not blame each

other for failure to implement policy as well as the

wishes of the representatives of the people, as

expressed through the portfolio committee.



Our committee provided a memorandum in which we

highlighted various programmes that should be promoted

through such centres. We suggested the following.

Adjoining community art centres should be craft markets,

restaurants and work centres; in some, there should be a
24 May 2002                                     Page 75 of 176


library, information technology, a computer centre and

an Abet centre.



In our view, the community art centres should be a hub

around which a whole range of activities should take

place. We pointed out in our memo that if the Government

were to add these and other features, both the local and

overseas visitors would be attracted, thereby

contributing to job creation and other opportunities for

people who are unemployed, as well as make a positive

contribution to the alleviation of poverty.



In countries such as the island of Malta, lace-making

and glass ornaments are a major tourist attraction. In

Malaysia batik is equally attractive to all visitors,

and the spinning of cloth in India has been going on for

centuries. Thus, as a developing country we should use

our art and culture as a catalyst to economic

development. Pottery, paper-making, meshing and a whole

host of local industries could be nurtured and expanded.

As an example of a working model of a community centre,

village crafts are to be found in Ouagadougou, in

Burkina Faso, where whole families are engaged in

manufacturing, finishing and selling products ranging
24 May 2002                                      Page 76 of 176


from ceramics, metal items, woodwork and leather.

Therefore, we plead with the department, once again, to

intensify its efforts by 5000% to make community art

centres hubs of local and cultural activities.



It is not plain sailing or a bed of roses for the

community art centres in our country. Some had to close

down because of a lack of basic operational financial

provisions. Some are not fully utilised because of a

lack of focus per se and administrative direction. Some

are working well and are a pleasure to visit.



Therefore, a plea is made to all of us to imbue in the

people in our constituencies the spirit as enshrined in

the statement made on 8 January which, inter alia,

provides:



  We must translate into reality, our vision of people-

  driven processes of change, as well as the fundamental

  principle that they are their own liberators.



By this, I mean for those centres to take off as

expected and required by our people. Our people should

be encouraged to volunteer their services in them, until
24 May 2002                                   Page 77 of 176


they become financially viable. Let us now turn to

another painful issue in our community, namely that of

the rural women. In rural communities we believe that

IKS sorghum and indigenous traditional brewing, dance,

music, etc should be supported on a preferential basis.



The Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism is

promoting a village type of accommodation, in order that

those who wish to experience the real Africa can do so

by watching the stars, listening to the tu-whitting of

the owls, dogs barking at the moon and stories about the

births and deaths of our kings, and waking up in the

morning to the crow of the cock.



Kukurukukuuu. Ndikhumbul' eMbhasheee. Eeembo. Moolo

mhlob' am. Ndlelantle saana. Undibulisele kwezo weyi.

Uthi kubhuti Nyawuza ndiza kumbhalela. [Kwaqhwatywa.]

The cock crows. I miss Mbhashe! Hello, my friend! Go

well, baby! Pass my regards to them there! Please tell

brother Nyawuza that I will write to him! [Applause.]



These are all opportunities begging to be taken up and

used wisely and economically, as well as recorded

properly in our history books for the next generation.
24 May 2002                                   Page 78 of 176


Our country has a lot of diversity, but we are one South

Africa with many cultures. This is the way of life we

want experienced by people in the country and used to

attract international visitors to this country.

Therefore we would like to see the community arts

centres as a microcosm of this big vision of our way of

life.



Simthembile uMphathiswa kunye nesekela lakhe, uNkskz

Mabandla. Siyacela kooMbomvu ukuba bawuphakamele lo

mcimbi, basenze sibe ngabantu abanegugu neqhayiya

ngemveli namasiko abo, njengoko sebenzile.

[Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)



[We trust both the hon Minister and his deputy, Mrs

Mabandla. We ask that Mbomvu and his colleagues should

take this matter up and make us proud of our origin,

culture and customs, as they have already done.

[Applause.]]



The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, can

we appeal to you to lower the noise level in the House.

There are a number of side meetings going on and these
24 May 2002                                   Page 79 of 176


do not allow the member at the podium the opportunity to

be heard.



Mev ANNA VAN WYK: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek wil 'n beroep

op die hoofswepe doen om hierdie debat in die toekoms op

'n Dinsdagmiddag as eerste item op die Ordelys te plaas,

en agb lede het nou net gehoor hoekom.



Hierdie begrotingspos het te make met die siel van die

nasie, en as sodanig verdien dit veel meer prominensie.

Die portefeuljekomitee is moeg daarvan om alewig soos

Aspoestertjie by die koue as van die week se verrigtings

te moet staan, en die koue pampoen wat my arme kollega

dan ook nog aan ons wil opdis, is iets wat ons nie wil

eet nie, want almal weet mos dat die DP/DA ons doelbewus

in die duister gehou het oor hulle doen en late.

[Tussenwerpsels.]



Die siel van die nasie is al belangrik genoeg, maar dit

het ook te doen met die hart en verstand, sowel as die

produk van die nasie. Nou moet ek dadelik sê, sedert die

boekjaar 1995-96 het die begroting vir die pos meer as

verdubbel, iets waarvoor ek graag krediet wil gee. Oor

hoe die departementele toediening gemaak word, kan 'n
24 May 2002                                   Page 80 of 176


mens redeneer, en ek wil voorstel dat daar deeglik gekyk

word na wat prioriteite behoort te wees.



Is dit byvoorbeeld regverdigbaar dat daar aan 'n

eenmalige byeenkoms R5 miljoen uitgegee word terwyl 'n

belangrike nasionale instelling soos die William

Humphreys-kunsgalery 'n jaar lank met R1,7 moet

klaarkom? By die Nasionale Museum in Bloemfontein, waar

daar uitsonderlike navorsing, byvoorbeeld op die gebied

van die Karoo-paleontologie gedoen word, is 45 poste nie

gevul nie.



Terwyl kunsteburokrate goeie salarisse, byvoordele,

pensioene en mediese fondse ontvang, ontvang gerekende

uitvoerende kunstenaars geen vaste inkomste, geen

bystand met gesondheidsorg en geen voorsiening vir hul

oudag nie. Dit is ongelukkig 'n feit.



'n Mens sou ook kon vra waarom die depotbiblioteek in

Grahamstad verlede jaar leeggestaan het en waarom

biblioteke landwyd in krisis verkeer. 'n Mens hoor ook

dat rare seëls van die Nasionale Argief by handelaars

beland en skilderye voete kry. (Translation of Afrikaans

paragraphs follows.)
24 May 2002                                      Page 81 of 176


[Mrs ANNA VAN WYK: Mr Chairperson, I want to make an

appeal to the chief whips that this debate in future be

placed on the Order Paper as the first item on a Tuesday

afternoon and hon members have just heard the reason for

this.



This Budget Vote deals with the soul of the nation and

as such it deserves much more prominence. Like

Cinderella, the portfolio committee is tired of always

having to stand at the cold cinders of the week's

proceedings and the cold pumpkin which my poor colleague

then wants to serve to us is something we do not want to

eat, because everyone knows that the DP/DA has

deliberately kept us in the dark about their activities.

[Interjections.]



The soul of the nation is important enough, but it also

deals with the heart and the mind as well as the product

of the nation. Now I have to add immediately, since the

1995-96 financial year the budget for this post more

than doubled, something I would like to give credit to.

One can argue about how the departmental allocation is

made, and I want to propose that we take a thorough look

at what ought to be priorities.
24 May 2002                                      Page 82 of 176


Is it for example justifiable that for a one-time

gathering R5 million should be spent while an important

national institution such as the William Humphreys Art

Gallery should get by with R1,7 million for an entire

year? At the National Museum in Bloemfontein where

exceptional research, for example in the area of the

Karoo paleontology, is being done, 45 posts have not

been filled.



While art bureaucrats receive good salaries, fringe

benefits, pensions and medical funds, esteemed

performing artists receive no fixed income, no support

with health care and no provision for their old age.

Unfortunately this is a fact.



One could also ask why the depot library in Grahamstown

stood empty last year and why libraries nationwide are

in crisis. One also hears that rare stamps of the

National Archives end up in the hands of dealers and

that paintings disappear.]



I know the Minister wants to educate, inform, delight

and uplift South Africans, and I want to congratulate

him, his department and the Deputy Minister of the very
24 May 2002                                   Page 83 of 176


good initiatives and the very many great successes they

have achieved. But there is a perception that the

Government on the whole lacks an informed vision.



I would like to ask the Minister to take up with

Government the matter of a thorough assessment of the

assets of the country. Whereas there are some asset

registers such as the one found, for example, in the

Department of Public Works, nationally - and at least in

the Western Cape provincially - many departments in all

spheres of government share the custodianship of a great

variety of assets. Until this cataloguing is done, it

will be difficult for Government to gain a comprehensive

overview of the extent and condition of its inheritance.



Admittedly, this will be a vast task. The number of

libraries, museums, galleries, sites of scientific or

historic importance, scientific and technological

institutes and installations, monuments, botanical

gardens, zoos, herbariums and archives, as well as the

contents of the aforementioned, is breathtaking. And I

would like to take Mrs Njobe to show her what there is

of Africa that she could be proud of.
24 May 2002                                      Page 84 of 176


Add to this the intangible heritage such as languages,

customs, skills and knowledge and the mind boggles.

Doubtless, much of these are under utilised, therefore

it does not seem sensible to proceed otherwise than with

caution on burdening the state with more material

assets. Sustainable use of existing assets is the crux.

The same portion needs to apply in our approach to our

human resources at every front. We simply cannot afford

to lose more scarce skills. I think that Sansa is a very

laudable initiative and I wish the Minister great

success with it.



Next, we need to arrive at key principles to Government

policy after following due process. We should start with

home-grown expertise in relevant fields, then we can

start the process of reformulating policy with the

people working in these disciplines, participating

fruitfully and taking joint ownership of the product.

Some of the present policies and consequential

legislation do not enjoy unquestionable credibility -

and in some cases even legitimacy - to meet the

requirements of successful administration and service

delivery.
24 May 2002                                      Page 85 of 176


Hierna kan ons begin met die praktiese aspekte:

herbeplanning, herbegroting en uitvoering, want die

ministerie se verpligtinge teenoor die nasie strek veel

wyer as net sy eie lynfunksie. In noue samewerking met

ander departemente, en veral provinsiale- en plaaslike

beplanningsdepartemente, behoort beleidsrigtinge van die

hele Regering te verseker dat Suid-Afrikaanse kultuur

nie verder geërodeer word deur vlak en gewelddadige

elektroniese vermaak nie, die kuslyn van Suid-Afrika nie

verder ontsier word deur ongebreidelde uitbreiding van

styllose en onvolhoubare vakansiedorpontwikkeling nie en

dat snelgroeiende behuisingsareas die kragtige

streeksontwerpe inheems aan Suid-Afrika reflekteer.



Suid-Afrika het probleme, maar ons het die talent en die

bates wat ons visioenêr kan aanwend. Dit is juis hierdie

portefeulje wat die Afrika Renaissance en Nepad kan laat

werk. Hiermee wil die Nuwe NP die Minister graag

bystaan. Ons glo aan Suid-Afrika eerste, en ons wil van

hom 'n suksesland maak.



Ons steun hierdie begrotingspas. [Applous.] (Translation

of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
24 May 2002                                   Page 86 of 176


[After this we can start with the practical aspects:

replanning, rebudgeting and export, because the

Ministry's obligations towards the nation stretches much

wider than merely its own line function. In close co-

operation with other departments, and especially

provincial and local planning departments, policy trends

of the entire Government ought to ensure that South

African cultures are no longer eroded by superficial and

violent electronic recreation, that the coastline of

South Africa is no longer defaced by the uncontrolled

extension of unsustainable holiday town development

which is without style, and that fast-growing housing

areas reflect the powerful indigenous regional designs

of South Africa.



South Africa has problems, but we have the talent and

the assets which we could apply in a visionary way. It

is precisely this portfolio which can make the African

Renaissance and Nepad work. The New NP would like to

assist the Minister in this. We believe in South Africa

first and we want to make it a winning country.



We support this budget. [Applause.]]
24 May 2002                                     Page 87 of 176


Prof I J MOHAMED: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy

Minister and hon members, it is a pleasure for me to

support, on behalf of the ANC, the Budget Vote of the

Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology. I

congratulate Mama Njobe on her appointment as

chairperson of our portfolio committee. I want to say to

the hon Deputy Minister Brigitte Mabandla that I very

much appreciate the poem that she has read here about

Saartjie Baartman. It is deeply moving.



The department's activities are divided into five

programmes: Administration, Arts and Culture, the

National Archives of South Africa, the National Language

Service and Science, Technology and Meta-information.

The latter programme creates the framework and strategy

for the development of science and technology. The

department Budget Vote increased by 12,8% to

approximately R1,364 billion from the year 2001-02 to

the year 2002-03.



I shall confine my comments to the Science, Technology

and Meta-information programme, which I shall abbreviate

to Science and Technology and its various subprogrammes.

The share of this programme in the Budget Vote is 55,4%.
24 May 2002                                   Page 88 of 176


This is down from 60,3% from the previous year, largely

due to increases in spending on Arts and Culture and

National Language Service programmes. There are no

grounds for complaint about a bigger share for the Arts

and Culture or National Language Service programme,

particularly as the Science and Technology allocation

grows by an average of nearly 10% per year over the

medium term. But, as I explained, the role of science

and technology, as hon members see, I believe, is very

extensive and crucial, and so this Budget Vote should be

increased substantially.



The allocation to science and technology is

approximately R755,9 million, an increase of 9,7% on the

previous year. This allocation is projected to increase

by 16,1% in 2003-04. Minister Ngubane and his department

and the director-general, of course, as well as the

Deputy Minister, Ms Brigitte Mabandla, must have

convinced Government of the important role science and

technology play as driver of economic development and

making our country a credible competitor in the global

market. I congratulate them.
24 May 2002                                      Page 89 of 176


The driving force of DACST's development and the

programmes they have implemented rest on the National

System of Innovation. The department has established a

National Advisory Council on Innovation, NACI, to

oversee the innovation process and advise the Minister

on various aspects of policy. Before I get to the

details of policy and the Budget Vote, I want to ask, as

required by the Public Finance Management Act, the PFMA,

how the budget of DACST responds to key Government

policy issues. I can discuss just one such issue.



The major problem confronting our country and Government

is to bring the poor and marginalised into the

mainstream of the economy and society. To resolve this

problem requires rapid economic growth and hence the

creation of jobs. This problem was researched by Naci

and I will summarise its report because it has a direct

bearing on our oversight function regarding the Budget

Vote. Members are urged to read the report for the

details.



To give the poor access to this requires training and

education, otherwise they will not have skills to fill

the jobs and skilled labour will have to be imported,
24 May 2002                                   Page 90 of 176


which will not solve the problem I stated. To develop

the economy we need competitive industries and products

to create niche markets, and this requires innovation.

There has been a decline of real per capita gross

domestic product since 1970 and more rapidly since 1991.

To change this situation there is a need for major

technological progress, given the technological state of

the global economy.



But what is the picture of this in our country? The Naci

report shows that technical progress to output growth in

West Germany is 87%, in France and the UK 78%, in Japan

59% and in the USA 50%, while in Africa it is 0% and in

the East Asia 28%. In South Africa in the 1970's it

declined by 0,49%. In the 1980's it was 0,34% and in the

1990's it was 1,07%.



Clearly there is a massive need for investment in human

capital and particularly in mathematics and science as

drivers of technology, the report shows, but there is a

decline in the number of students who opt for these

subjects on the higher grade and so the technological

fields are closed to them.
24 May 2002                                      Page 91 of 176


To meet this problem we need to address it at schools.

There will have to be serious upgrading programmes for

teachers, so that they are qualified to train students

in these fields. If this is not done, science and

mathematics higher grade teaching will continue to

decline, and we shall fail to meet the opening point

that I have mentioned on the task of Government to bring

the poor and the marginalised into the mainstream. These

comments come, basically, from the NACI report. So, let

us see how the DACST budget tries to address this

problem, while we know that very much depends on

education. As an aside, I leave it to the members to

decide if the restructuring of the schools and

universities address this problem.



The science and technology programme is divided into

four subprogrammes. I shall briefly say something about

each of the subprogrammes, its tasks and achievements.

The first subprogramme is called "Science, Technology

and Knowledge System Development and Maintenance." It is

allocated R246 million this year. In broad terms this

subprogramme supports science and technology policy

formulation, creates working systems and instruments for

development.
24 May 2002                                      Page 92 of 176


It transfers technology and knowledge to various

institutions. For example, the creation of computer-

controlled instruments that create vehicle components

and assemble these in the motor vehicle industry, as

well as train the workforce to operate such equipment.



Clearly, there must be human resource development and

upgrading of staff. Of course, jobs are lost at the

lower levels and this must be addressed, but the NACI

report indicated what must be done. This subprogramme

funds the Innovation Fund with an allocation of R136,7

million this year; the poverty relief programme with an

allocation of R30 million last year, but only R18

million this year; and the financial assistance projects

with an allocation of R74,5 million this year.



The Innovation Fund was created to focus on large-scale

projects with a significant research and development

programme. The aim is to enhance the efficiency of

scientific and technology institutions, improve the

quality and quantity of science and technology skills,

and produce advanced production systems and products.

For example, biologists, organic chemists and gold

mining engineers were brought together by Mintek to
24 May 2002                                   Page 93 of 176


develop bioleaching. This recovers gold from gold-

bearing ore by biochemical means rather than purely

nonorganic chemical means, which uses dangerous

chemicals.



Bioleaching is similar to the process whereby microbes

take nitrogen from the air and fix it to the roots of

plants to enable the plant to grow, rather than taking

the nitrogen from chemical fertilisers. This knowledge

would then also be brought to small-scale miners who use

extensively dangerous chemicals like mercury and

cyanide. When the mercury is heated, which the miners

do, the vapours cause irreversible brain damage. Perhaps

members have also seen iron and steel produced in

computer-controlled furnaces and the conveyance of

molten metals in large computer-controlled bins.



Similarly, members may have seen straight steel rods

being rolled out between rollers shaped like power

stations on cooling towers, of course, on a smaller

scale. These designs come from a mathematical programme.

These examples are meant to show members the importance

of science and mathematics.
24 May 2002                                     Page 94 of 176


This subprogramme also has a target to establish a

bioinformatics resource centre in 2002 to 2003. Another

target is to establish the first biotechnology centre of

excellence. One of the lead programmes of the department

is in the area of biotechnology under which food

production, nutrition, medicines and health care,

environmental applications and industrial applications

were studied.



This programme in particular has an important role to

play in the Nepad project. Subprogramme 2 is called

"Support for Institutions active in Science, Technology

and Information Service Activities." The allocation for

this subprogramme is R457,7 million. This subprogramme

funds the Human Science Research Council, the HSRC,

which receives R65,1 million in the present year. The

HSRC does sociological research - the Minister has

already alluded to this - for example school needs, the

impact on communities who live in very densely populated

areas or survival strategies of the unemployed and the

poor. This subprogramme also funds the national library

for the blind and literature for the visually

handicapped.
24 May 2002                                      Page 95 of 176


This also funds the National Research Foundation, NRF,

which was allocated R222,3 million this year. The NRF

funds university bursaries as well as research and our

national facilities. The national facilities are top-

rate research institutions and include the Astronomical

Observatory, the Hartebeesthoek Radio Astronomical

Observatory, the SA Large Telescope and the iThemba

Laboratory for Accelerator-Based Sciences. The latter

produce radiopotes for medical diagnostic purposes and

treats cancer with its nuclear particle beam that cannot

be treated with the conventional cobalt system. This

treatment is also given to people from outside our

borders and is, therefore, another support for Nepad.



The SA Large Telescope, SALT, along with other

observatories, will obtain information about our galaxy,

ie the Milky Way, and thus make a contribution to

international science. Remember that our galaxy is a

spiral galaxy which extends over a distance which takes

a ray of light 100 000 years to travel from one end of

the diameter of a galaxy to the other. Remember the

excitement and inspiration your children and my

grandchildren will have when they visit these sites and

experience the marvels of the universe, and of science
24 May 2002                                   Page 96 of 176


and technology. Some day we will run out of industrial

minerals we now mine. We will then have to use the

knowledge we have gained from these observations to

bring these materials from other planets into our solar

system.



Subprogrammes 3 is called "Science and Society." We are

basically trying to increase the interest of the

community in science and technology, to try and get

students to study mathematics and science. I will not

extend more on that because of time, but the Deputy

Minister has already expounded on that.



Subprogramme 4 is ``Technology Development.'' It

identifies key technologies and hence gives direction to

the sectors information technology, biotechnology and

advanced materials.



I just want to remind hon members that physicists have

discovered and advanced material, a very high conductor

of heat. If research can bring the cost of that material

down it will resolve the problem of solar energy in the

rural areas. This, too, is in support of Nepad. I pay

tribute to Dr Stobie of the Astronomical Observatory for
24 May 2002                                     Page 97 of 176


the work he has done, particularly on SALT, and I

express my condolences to his family on his recent

death.



Finally, I which to tell DACST that it is doing well. It

has reported, as required by the PFMA, but should please

give us some more measurable outputs. It should also not

spread its information so that we must hunt for it. I

hope Minister Ngubane, his department and the director-

general will manage to convince Government that their

work deserves more than what they are allocated. I wish

them well. [Applause.]



Dr C P MULDER: Mnr die Voorsitter, agb Minister Ngubane

en agb adjunkminister Mabandla, Europa was nie altyd so

welvarend en op die voorpunt van tegnologiese

ontwikkeling soos vandag nie. Baie eeue lank tydens die

donker Middeleeue was Europa in 'n intellektuele

duisternis gehul.



Die vraag is: Waarom het Europa ná die Renaissance so

vooruitgegaan en ontwikkel? Baie redes kan aangevoer

word, maar historici stel dit dat een van die

belangrikste redes die feit is dat die opvoeding in
24 May 2002                                   Page 98 of 176


Europa na die Renaissance in die mense se spreektale

plaasgevind en nie meer in die hoë statustaal van

daardie tyd, naamlik Latyn nie. Nou praat pres Mbeki van

'n Afirka Renaissance en Nepad waarmee Afrika opgebou

moet word. Die VF steun sy Nepakinisiatief, maar glo 'n

belangrike voorwaarde is dat die Afrikaspreektale meer

na vore moet kom in die plek van die koloniale tale soos

Frans en Engels.



Die Minister van Kuns, Kultuur, Wetenskap en Tegnologie

is onder andere belas met die belangrike taak om die

Grondwet se artikel oor taal te help uitvoer. Artikel

6(2) van die Grondwet stel dit dat die staat praktiese

en daadwerklike maatreëls moet tref om die status van

dié tale te verhoog en hul gebruik te bevorder. Sou ons

nie die status van die inheemse tale verhef het deur ook

byvoorbeeld Zoeloe- of Sothonaamborde by die Parlement

aan te bring nie? Dit lyk of die ANC-regering skaam is

vir hierdie tale en daarom net Engels op al die

naamborde gebruik.



Tot op hede is die saak nog nie reggestel nie en die

Minister en sy departement moet daarmee help, aangesien

dit ook hulle taak is om na die tale van Suid-Afrika te
24 May 2002                                    Page 99 of 176


kyk. Die VF het 'n klagte by PanSAT   daaroor gelê en

vertrou dat hulle die onreg teenoor ander Suid-

Afrikaanse tale by die Parlement sal insien. PanSAT sit

egter met meer as 200 agterstallige sake. Dit is in

hierdie Minister se vermoë om PanSAT sterker te maak,

nie net ten opsigte van sy begroting en personeel nie,

maar ook om daaraan werklike wetlike tande te gee.

Staatsdepartemente soos die Departement van Openbare

Werke is deur PanSAT skuldig bevind dat hulle die

Grondwet skend ten opsigte van sy taalbeleid. Tog

ignoreer die betrokke departement die skuldigbevinding.

As die beoogde taalwetgewing van die Minister al

deurgevoer was, sou ons die meeste van die probleme in

die departemente en die Parlement kon voorkom het.

Waarom is die taalwet nog steeds nie deurgevoer nie? Is

dit nog 'n IVP-Minister wat deur die ANC gesaboteer word

en dan moet hierdie Raad die probleme namens die ANC

hanteer?



Prof Albert Weideman van die Eenheid vir die

Ontwikkeling van Taalvaardigheid aan die UP het onlangs

bevind dat daar 'n sterk afname in taalvaardigheid onder

Suid-Afrikaanse studente is. Die keuse van Suid-

Afrikaanse ouers is om hulle kinders in 'n hoëstatustaal
24 May 2002                                  Page 100 of 176


soos Engels op te voed en dit is besig om tot 'n

tragiese afname in taalgeletterdheid en taalvaardigheid

te lei. Dit geld nie net vir swart sprekers vir wie

Engels 'n tweede of 'n derde taal is nie, maar ook ander

sprekers vir wie Engels ook 'n tweede of 'n derde taal

is.



Hierdie Minister en sy departement het 'n belangrike

taak om te help dat Nepad en die Afrika Renaissance

slaag deur Afrikamense hul trots op hul tale terug te

gee. Die VF help hom graag daarmee. Ons steun die

departement se werk. [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of

Afrikaans speech follows.)



[Dr C P MULDER: Mr Chairman, hon Minister Ngubane and

hon Deputy Minister Mabandla, Europe was not always as

prosperous and at the forefront of technological

development as is the case today. For many centuries

during the dark Middle Ages Europe was wrapped in

intellectual darkness.



The question is: Why did Europe prosper and develop so

much after the Renaissance? Many reasons can be given,

but historians give as one of the most important reasons
24 May 2002                                  Page 101 of 176


the fact that education in Europe following the

Renaissance took place in the people's spoken languages

and no longer in the high-status language of that time,

namely Latin. Now President Mbeki is talking about an

African Renaissance and Nepad, by way of which Africa

must be built up. The FF supports his Nepad initiative,

but believes an important condition is that the spoken

African languages should come to the fore more strongly

in the place of colonial languages like French and

English.



The Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology

is, inter alia, tasked with the important task to help

execute the Constitution's section on language. Section

6(2) of the Constitution states that the state must take

practical and positive measures to elevate the status

and advance the use of these languages. Would we not

have elevated the status of the indigenous languages by

also, for example, adding Zulu or Sotho signposts at

Parliament? It looks as though the ANC Government is

ashamed of these languages and therefore only uses

English on all the signposts.
24 May 2002                                  Page 102 of 176


To date the matter has still not been rectified and the

Minister and his department must help in this regard, as

it is also their task to see to the languages of South

Africa. The FF laid a complaint with PanSALB about the

matter and trusts that they will recognise the injustice

towards other South African languages at Parliament.

However, PanSALB is more than 200 cases in arrears. It

is within this Minister's power to strengthen PanSALB,

not only with regard to its budget and staff, but also

to give it real statutory teeth. Government departments

like the Department of Public Works have been found

guilty by PanSALB of violating the Constitution with

regard to their language policy. And yet the relevant

department ignores the conviction. If the Minister's

envisaged language legislation had already been passed,

we would have been able to prevent most of the problems

in the departments and at Parliament. Why has the

language Act still not been passed? Is it that another

IFP Minister has been sabotaged by the ANC and then this

House must deal with the problems on behalf of the ANC?



Prof Albert Weideman from the Unit for Language Skills

Development at the University of Pretoria recently found

that there has been a sharp decline in language skills
24 May 2002                                  Page 103 of 176


among South African students. The choice of South

African parents is to educate their children in a high-

status language like English and this is leading to a

tragic decline in language literacy and language skills.

This applies not only to black speakers for whom English

is a second or third language, but also among other

speakers for whom English is also a second or third

language.



This Minister and his department have an important task

to help Nepad and the Africa Renaissance succeed by

returning to African people their pride in their

languages. The FF would be glad to help him with that.

We support the department's work. [Time expired.]]



Moh M A SEECO: Modulasetilo, ka lefapha leno la

mafaratlhatlha, e bong la Bokgabo, Setso, Saense le

Thekenoloji, Aforika Borwa e netefatsa fa e diragatsa

Tekanyetsokabo go badiragatsi e bile e itshupa ka go

tsaya karolo ka ditshwantsho, tota le kwa moseja. Mafelo

a bommabana a, a thusiwe ka matlole go rotloetsa morafe

wa ka moso. Ke bua ka dikopelo tsa setso le botaki go

romelwa kwa mafelong a a kwa ntle. Botaki ke sengwe le
24 May 2002                                   Page 104 of 176


sengwe jaaka puo, mokwalo, mokgwa wa go apara, go betla

ka lejwe kgotsa legong, go bopa le go loga.



Lefapha leno le tlhabolola kitso e batho ba rona ba nang

nayo gore ba bone botshelo. UCDP e amogela

Tekanyetsokabo eno. (Translation of Tswana paragraphs

follows.)



[Ms M A SEECO: Chairperson, with this department of

infrastructure, that is, the Department of Arts,

Culture, Science and Technology, South Africa confirms

that it uses this Budget towards the performers and it

also proves itself by taking part in the film industry,

even abroad. Cultural centres should be assisted with

funds to encourage our future generation. I am talking

about cultural songs and art that should be sent abroad.

Art entails things such as speech, writing, style of

clothing, sculpting with stone or wood, sculpting with

clay and knitting.



This department improves the knowledge that our people

have to earn a living. The UCDP accepts this Budget.]
24 May 2002                                  Page 105 of 176


The UCDP considers the budget of this department as

realising the potential of the arts, culture, science

and technology in social and economic development. The

ongoing transformation of the department into an

organisation that promotes lifelong learning for all

South Africans is a prerequisite for fulfilling key

Government objectives.



Congratulations to Dr Ben Ngubane, who is the chairman

of the Commonwealth Science Council for the triennium

2000-2003. South Africa will host the 21st meeting of

the Commonwealth Science Council in 2003.



The bulk of the spending on administration goes towards

the personnel expenditure at approximately 66%.



We appreciate the process and initiatives that have been

undertaken by the department over the past two years,

namely the South African Music Week; exporting craft

work to Burkina Faso and celebrating South Africa in

London. The music industry task team process, which lays

the foundation for the development of an export council

in the cultural industry ... [Time expired.] [Applause.]
24 May 2002                                  Page 106 of 176


Dr A I VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, hon Minister, the

Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology

distributes the funds allocated for research to the

different research councils. The funds made available to

the Agricultural Research Council amount to R265

million. This amount, in real terms, is equivalent to

only 55% of what the ARC received in 1992.



During the last couple of years the funds allocated to

the Agricultural Research Council were decreased year by

year, from an amount of R337 million in 1997-98 to R262

million in the year 2001-02. This had catastrophic

effects on the ARC because the projected amount for the

year 2002 was in the vicinity R600 million. This decline

is leading to the downfall of the ARC, which is the

cornerstone of agriculture and agricultural development

in southern Africa.



The agricultural research ship is sinking. Many

promising research projects are abandoned. A total of 62

key researchers left the ARC this year for jobs outside

this company and in the private sector. More than 93

critical posts remain vacant. Many institutes, the

Onderstepoort Veterinary Institute, for instance, are in
24 May 2002                                   Page 107 of 176


crisis owing to the lack of funds and resignation of

personnel. I can go on, and on and on.



While the funds of the ARC decline each year, those of

the Medical Research Council and other research councils

have increased by 30%, and those of the Bureau of

Standards by 61%. This indicates to the agricultural

sector that the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and

Technology does not consider agricultural research as

very important and gives it a low priority.



I would say that reconsideration of this stance is

absolutely necessary. And if funds are not made

available and we do not look at this important

infrastructure, which we cannot do without, I can

forecast now that in the next two to three years

agricultural research will disappear and food will,

eventually, have to be imported into South Africa.



The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I call upon the

hon L L L Chiwayo, who is going to make his maiden

speech, to address the House.



Hon MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! [Applause.]
24 May 2002                                   Page 108 of 176


Mr L L L CHIWAYO: Chairperson, lend me your ear, lend me

your ear. I am told that this is a popular phrase that

is contained in most of Shakespeare's books, but I was

advised that if I was to employ its usage I should

exercise extreme care and caution that there are not the

likes of Mike Tyson in the audience, who might give a

literal meaning to that phrase. [Laughter.]



I had an exciting experience about two days ago. I met a

young man from the North West. His name is Given and his

surname I have forgotten. He is twenty years old. He is

in his second year of study at one of the colleges in

Cape Town. He approached me and told me that he was

quite proud that there are those who are young-looking,

like ourselves, who are part of this House. [Laughter.]

Somebody has just added ``good looking'', and I am sure

there are many other judges who might confirm that.

[Laughter.]



He went on and said that he wished to be part of this

House one day and that he wanted to serve his people and

follow in the example of many leaders, current and

former leaders, such as our former president Nelson

Mandela. For me it was quite exciting that young people
24 May 2002                                  Page 109 of 176


could have that sense of commitment and see the

significance of this House, especially in relation to

impacting on the lives of our people out there.



I sat back that evening and reflected on that matter. I

could not help but be preoccupied with our own

experiences and other things might have brought about

the experience of coming to this House. I thought about

the fact that he was 22 years old, and not particularly

active in student activities. By the way, one piece of

advice that I gave him was that he should start engaging

in activities that would show his peers that he does

indeed care about our people, and primarily to focus on

issues that affect not only his sector but those around

him.



I was interpreting the implications of that on his

career and any possibility of him serving in such a

House. I could not help but think that he would have to

gain 10 years, of experience before he could make it to

this House. In other words, he might, depending on how

he fared, find himself in this House within the next 10

years when he would be only 32.
24 May 2002                                  Page 110 of 176


That makes one realise just how one is humbled and

honoured to find oneself serving in this House, and on

that basis, I want to take this opportunity to thank the

ANC for having shortened that period, because some of us

had the honour and the humbling experience of serving in

the legislative assemblies, especially in the Senate, at

the age of 25. [Applause.]



I want to thank our people and their struggle, because

that made us what we are. That struggle made us

comprehend the harsh realities of the situations that we

were faced with at an early age, to the extent that we

realised that those harsh conditions were not created by

God, but were man-made and, since they were man-made, it

would take human effort to change those conditions, and

not prayer only.



Having related that experience, which was a very

disappointing one, I want to mention a phone-in

programme that was hosted by DJ Khabzela on Y-FM. One of

the young people said - I want to repeat what he said -

that:
24 May 2002                                  Page 111 of 176


  We are tired of these exiles. We are tired of the

  former prisoners. We are tired of the politicians. We

  want to be led by somebody we can relate to.



It was rather disappointing that a young person, who I

thought was between the ages of 15 and 22, had such a

short memory, a memory that displayed the ignorance that

might be creeping into the minds of many young people

like him out there, who might not be able to interpret

and relate the exciting experiences of the

transformation process that is unfolding in our country

to the sacrifices and struggles that were waged by our

people, including by the very politicians he was talking

about, and the exiles and prisoners.



I felt terribly disappointed, not because I also happen

to be a former Robben Island prisoner and therefore,

that if indeed many of them think in that manner, then

chances of any exile making it to any serious leadership

position in government would be limited. That was not

particularly my worry. My worry was the fact that we do

not seem to have a memory bank which young people could

tap into to come to terms with the realities of our

history, to come to terms with, most importantly, those
24 May 2002                                  Page 112 of 176


things that are critical in making us the winning nation

that we are.



Many people would ask: Why these stories and what

relevance do they have to the debate at hand? The latter

example of the disappointing youngster inevitably means

that if one confronts each one of them and asks them who

their role models are, they are likely to identify

instant millionaires who, in a split second, rob a bank

and make themselves important members of society because

they have accumulated riches. I also think that some of

the role models that they might identify are those who

continuously spin cars in the townships. They might also

see them as people they could look up to.



I do think, with a sigh of relief, that, if confronted

again, that person is also likely to identify artists.

He is likely to talk about Mandoza, Arthur Mafokate and

Hugh Masikela. That person is likely to talk about the

many actors that we have seen on TV because, at least,

those are some of the things that are quite important in

occupying this vacuum of a lack of role models that we

can promote in society and that young people can look up

to. I think that this invariably indicates the
24 May 2002                                  Page 113 of 176


significance of the arts as a terrain of not only

raising a profile of individuals among societies, but

also, most importantly, as a possible platform that can

clearly develop role models that we can always look up

to.



Regarding the issue I raised of a young person who is

completely ignorant, I think the important question that

we must ask ourselves as members - I am sure all of us

would be disappointed if the memories of this exciting

experiences were to be forgotten in a short space of

time - is: what can we do to change the situation?



One of my responses would be that we have to be

determined to free the arts, culture and heritage from

the intensive care unit in which they have historically

languished and continue to languish today. I am

deliberately raising this point, and I hope the hon

members I spoke to about this will not feel embarrassed.



When I decided to serve on the Portfolio Committee on

Arts, Culture, Science and Technology, many of my

colleagues asked me why I was wasting my time there,

when there were more important committees I could serve
24 May 2002                                  Page 114 of 176


on, for example communications, finance and a whole

range of others. ``That is the committee of people who

really do not want to have their energies engaged'', one

of the views went. Unfortunately, it is exactly this

perception, in my view, that might be dictating the very

figures that we normally see when talking about arts,

culture, science and technology, because in a way it is

a function that finds itself relegated to the periphery

of social development, because people think that it is

something that is not important.



Historically, it has found itself as a function moving

between functions. It was part of education, treated

like a step-daughter or step-child. It found itself in

some provinces, for instance, as part of welfare. The

only relationship I can think of among sports,

recreation, arts, culture and welfare is that if one is

a member of the Health and Racquet Club, it attends to

one's welfare or lifestyle. I cannot see any other

relationship whatsoever.



The point I am trying to make is that unless we

recognise the significance of this function, especially

in a manner that speaks to the figures, ie the budgetary
24 May 2002                                  Page 115 of 176


issues that we are talking about today, we will not

impact on the perceptions of young people out there.

Arts, culture and heritage are not about playing and

sweating, it is serious business. It is a serious

business because any nation that wants its existence to

be known primarily relies on this very important area of

life to communicate any important message about its

existence.



It is not an accident that the aesthetic value that we

as South Africans attach to music would tilt more in

favour of American music as opposed to our own, because

of the significant attention which those musicians are

given in their own countries. A Michael Jackson would be

as important as a Bill Gates in America, unlike an

artist who will die and be buried a pauper in South

Africa. So those are some of the things that one wishes

to raise as means of drawing a parallel.



As a nation of information, there are important issues

that we always have to confront, such as issues of

identity, which are about a sense of national unity, as

well as issues of common belonging, unity, solidarity

and patriotism.
24 May 2002                                  Page 116 of 176


This brings us to a very important question: What can we

do to ensure that, indeed, South Africa becomes a common

nation and a winning nation? There are a number of

important debates that we have been engaged in,

including the one about attempts to define what makes a

nation. There are different perspectives in regard to

characteristics that might make a nation, but there is

common understanding around issues such as common

national boundaries, a common economy, a shared culture,

and so forth.



I think that alone indicates the significance of culture

as something that can help in building a nation. When

talking about culture, there are both tangible and

intangible aspects that we can talk about. For instance,

there are issues of norms and values. What distinguishes

members of the animal kingdom, ie us as human beings

from dogs, is the fact that we have norms and values

that we subscribe to or norms and values that guide our

conduct and behavioural standards, as opposed to dogs,

which can engage in all manner of practices that we

would refer to as antisocial behaviour.
24 May 2002                                  Page 117 of 176


Arts and culture can play an important role in fostering

a sense of community spirit, of solidarity. The fact

that people are up in arms, for instance, over a TV

programme that shows somebody who deals in human parts

is because people are concerned and have the sense of

patriotism that we are supposed to have towards the next

human being. Most importantly, this ensures that

antisocial activity is completely gotten rid of in

society. That is where arts and culture can play a role

- in issues of solidarity, as I said, and patriotism.



However, arts and culture can also play an important

role in fostering a sense of tolerance. It is sometimes

shocking to those of us who have had ... [Time

expired.][Applause.]



Mnr C AUCAMP: Mnr die Voorsitter, die belangrikste

instrumente tot die bewaring van 'n kulturele erfenis,

wat ons Minister se verantwoordelikheid is, is nie dooie

standbeelde en museums nie, maar lewende monumente, die

name van ons dorpe en stede, berge en riviere. Oor die

kwessie van plekname in Suid-Afrika oefen hierdie

Minister sy bevoegdheid uit kragtens wet 118 van 1998 en

met behulp van 'n statutêre liggaam, die Suid-Afrikaanse
24 May 2002                                     Page 118 of 176


Pleknaamraad. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph

follows.)



[Mr C AUCAMP: Mr Chairman, the most important

instruments in the conservation of a cultural heritage,

which is our Minister's responsibility, are not dead

statues and museums, but living monuments, the names of

our towns and cities, mountains and rivers. The Minister

exercises his competence on the issue of place names in

South Africa in terms of Act 118 of 1998, assisted by a

statutory body, the South African Geographical Names

Council.]



According to this Act, this council has certain duties,

inter alia, to facilitate the establishment of

provincial geographical names committees; to set

guidelines for these committees and for local and

provincial authorities; to liaise with cultural,

historic and linguistic organisations, to identify names

in need of revision, in consultation with provincial

governments.



In die Minister se toespraak by die opening van die

Pleknaamraad op 8 Desember 1999 het hy getoon dat hy
24 May 2002                                     Page 119 of 176


begrip het vir die kompleksiteit van hierdie probleem en

vir die kulturele sensitiwiteit daarvan. Die Minister

het hom soos volg uitgelaat: (Translation of Afrikaans

paragraph follows.)



[In the Minister's speech at the inauguration of the

Geographical Names Council on 8 December 1999 he

displayed his understanding of the complexity of this

problem and its cultural sensitivity. The Minister

expressed himself as follows:]



  We all know too well how naming can be used to divide

  and segregate a country ... I hope that the

  establishment of this council will pave the way for

  the constructive use of names, to show our diversity,

  our vibrant multicultural history and experiences of

  our many people.



The Minister then stressed the need for place-name

contexts to be representative of the country's many

peoples, languages and cultures.



Mooi woorde - en ons stem saam met die Minister, maar

wat gebeur egter? In een enkele Nag van die Lang Messe
24 May 2002                                     Page 120 of 176


word feitlik elke dorpsnaam in die Noordelike Provinsie,

van Warmbad tot Messina, van Ellisras tot Duiwelskloof,

verander. [Fine words - and we agree with the Minister,

but what has happened? On a single Night of the Long

Knives the names of practically every town in the

Northern Province, from Warmbaths to Messina, from

Ellisras to Duiwelskloof, have been changed.]



... an action that makes a mockery of the famous words

of the Freedom Charter that ``South Africa belongs to

all its people''.



'n Gebeurtenis wat soos min ander ooit simbolies vir

veral Afrikaners sê: Dis nie julle plek hierdie nie. Die

gevolg hiervan is vervreemding, verwydering en verset.



Ek wil die Minister enkele vrae vra wat ek hoop hy

vandag kan antwoord. Is daar 'n provinsiale

pleknaamkomitee in die Noordelike Provinsie ingestel? Is

daar vooraf met alle gemeenskappe gekonsulteer? Is daar

riglyne neergelê vir die provinsiale owerheid? Is die

rits dorpname wat meteens verander is wel na

oorlegpleging met die Suid-Afrikaanse Pleknaamraad
24 May 2002                                    Page 121 of 176


geïdentifiseer en verander, soos deur die wet vereis?

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)



[An event which, like few others before, has

symbolically told the Afrikaner in particular: This

place is not yours. This has brought about estrangement,

separation and resistance.



I want to ask the Minister a few questions which I hope

he can answer today. Was a provincial geographical names

committee appointed in the Northern Province? Were all

communities consulted beforehand? Were guidelines

established for the provincial authority? Was the whole

series of names of towns that were summarily changed

actually identified and changed after consultation with

the SA Geographical Names Council, as required by law?]



Furthermore, is the Minister of the opinion that this

conduct in the Northern Province will pave the way for

the constructive use of names, as the Minister promised

in his speech? Does the Minister think that the end

result of this bulldozing exercise in the Northern

Province will show our diversity and our multicultural

history? Will the names in this province and eventually
24 May 2002                                   Page 122 of 176


in South Africa be representative of the country's many

peoples, as the Minister promised? Is the Minister of

the opinion that the statement of the chairperson of the

SA Geographical Names Council, Prof Mathenjwa, in the

only published annual report of 31 March 2001, is in

accordance with the objectives of the law, when he said:

``South Africa should move fast, like its neighbouring

countries that moved fast to remove anything that

reminded them of the colonial and oppressive years''?

Anything! A clean sweep! A total onslaught.



Die finale beslissing is in die hande van die Minister.

Hy sal eersdaags sy stempel moet plaas op hierdie daad

van kulturele imperialisme. Gaan hy dit doen? Of gaan hy

hom laat lei deur die riglyne wat hy self gestel het in

daardie goeie toespraak wat hy gemaak het? Die AEB doen

'n beroep op die Minister, aangesien in talle opsigte

afgewyk is van die neergelegde beleid, selfs in die

norme van die wet. Die proses is gekenmerk deur 'n

gebrek aan konsultasie van gemeenskappe. Ons wil vir die

Minister sê: Stop die bus! (Translation of Afrikaans

paragraph follows.)
24 May 2002                                  Page 123 of 176


[The final decision is in the hands of the Minister.

Before long he will have to put his stamp on this deed

of cultural imperialism. Will he do it? Or will he be

led by the guidelines that he himself established in

that great speech of his? The AEB is making an appeal to

the Minister, because the established policy has been

contravened in many respects, even in the norms of the

law. The process has been characterised by a lack of

consultation with communities. We want to tell the

Minister: Stop the bus!]



He must get the communities together; let all the

interests be put on the table; let South Africans in

their diversity deliberate together and work towards a

solution together. There must be a way in which we can

solve this problem together. The present alternative is

one of alienation, to the detriment of loyalty,

patriotism and harmony, and, finally, to the detriment

of all the peoples in South Africa.



Ons wag in spanning om te sien wat die agb Minister oor

hierdie saak gaan doen. [We are waiting in suspense to

see what the hon the Minister is going to do about this

matter.]
24 May 2002                                  Page 124 of 176


Mr V C GORE: Chairperson, the DA listened to and laments

with the hon Njobe over her humiliating and degrading

experience at the Cango Caves. However, I would like to

take this opportunity to remind the hon Njobe and the

ANC that the reason for her distress was none other than

her new political bedfellow, the New NP.



When Mark Shuttleworth launched into space and travelled

to the International Space Station during April 2002, he

not only became the first ``Afronaught'', but, more

importantly, he ignited the imagination of thousands of

South Africans. It is now groovy to be a geek, trendy to

be a nerd and downright cool to be smart. Science and

technology are no longer in the domain of the supernerd,

as it is now hip to be square.



Due to time constraints, it is extremely difficult to

highlight the achievements of this department, and there

are many. The DA congratulates the Minister on these. I

would, however, like to concentrate on a few key issues.



Perhaps the Minister would like to respond to the

embarrassing situation his department finds itself in.

On the one side of the House, the hon President in his
24 May 2002                                  Page 125 of 176


opening-of-Parliament address announced that Microsoft

would be donating software to 32 000 schools. On the

other side of the House, we have the National Advisory

Council on Innovation, established in terms of

legislation to advise the Minister and Cabinet on

scientific matters, advocating the adoption of open-

source software, such as Linux, as the most appropriate

manner for addressing the digital divide. This is in

direct opposition to the President's actions to make use

of proprietary software such as that of Microsoft. Is

this conflict a result of miscommunication or does it

highlight the growing political divide between the IFP

and the ANC?



African and South African problems are unique, and

therefore require unique solutions. We need South

Africans to find ways to pump water to the top of the

Maluti Mountains, to electrify Eshowe and to supply

telephones to Toekomsrus.



It is therefore distressing to note the continued R&D

spending as a percentage of GDP remaining at an

unacceptably low level compared to that of other

countries. If we as South Africans are going to find
24 May 2002                                  Page 126 of 176


solutions to the myriad of problems that face this

country, more money has to be spent on research and

development. I encourage the Minister to address this

serious situation.



In addition, if one takes a walk through the labs and

research facilities of our country, one of the first

things one will notice is the shortage of young people

doing research. Research, by its very nature, requires

fresh and supple minds to come up with innovative

answers. An alarm bell is ringing; either the hon

Minister reverse the flow of our top young minds

overseas and encourage them to stay, or South Africa

faces the real risk that we will not be able to do any

meaningful research in a few years' time.



When we look at Mark Shuttleworth and his billions, we

generally see the exception rather than the rule. This

fairy tale needs to become the rule, rather than the

exception. All South Africans have to embrace the

entrepreneurial flair of Shuttleworth - with high risk

comes high reward.
24 May 2002                                  Page 127 of 176


The DA fully supports the initiatives of the department

in its promotion of the entrepreneur through SMME

development, particularly through projects such as the

MAC centres, Brain and Godisa. However, the DA would

like to see a few things go a bit further.



First of all, there must be easier access to start-up

funding; the cost of business must be reduced; must be

encouraged; more industry research institution cross-

pollination and, finally, there must be tax incentives

for technology-based research.



If South Africa continues to promote science and

technology and accelerates support in innovation, then

we will see thousands of Shuttleworths blasting off on a

daily basis in search of brave new worlds. [Applause.]



Ms S D MOTUBATSE: Chairperson, hon Minister and hon

members, the ANC supports this budget allocation for

2002-03. The reason for that is that we heard our people

in 1955 when they spoke in Kliptown. All of us heard our

people saying: The doors of learning and culture shall

be opened. They said this in many languages: ``Minango

ya pfunzo na mvelele i do vulwa''; ``Amathuba okufunda
24 May 2002                                    Page 128 of 176


namasiko ayovulelwa wonke umuntu''; ``Die deure van

geleerdheid en kultuur sal oopgemaak word''.



Re le ba ANC re thekga ditekanyetšo tše ka gore re ile

ra itlema gore re tla šomela setšhaba. Lefapha le la tša

Botaki le lona le itlemile go ya ka dingwalwa tšeo re di

lebeletšego gore le tla diriša tšhelete ye go šomela

setšhaba. Tše dingwe tša dilo tšeo ba itlemilego ka

tšona ke gore ba tla kgonthišiša gore maikemišetšo a

ditšhelete a šomišwa gore setšhaba se tšwetšwe pele, se

thekgiwe, gomme se kgone go ntšha bokgoni bja sona ka

tsela yeo e feletšego.



Gape re lemogile gore lefapha le na le tokelo ya gore le

thekge bao ba nago le bokgoni, gomme le diriše tšhelete

ye gore batho ba gabo rena le bona ba nke ba tlogele

bošuana. Batho ba gabo rena ba thekgwe ke mmušo woo ba o

kgethilego gore go tle go be le tšwelopele mo nageng.



Naga ye ya rena e humile. Lehumo la rena ga se lehumo

leo le swanago le la dinaga tša kua kgakala, eupša ke

lehumo leo le akaretšago tsebo, setšo le bokgoni. Ke ka

fao re rego lefapha a le thekge batho ba rena, gomme
24 May 2002                                  Page 129 of 176


bokgoni bjo le bohwa bja rena di tsebjwe lefase ka

bophara.



Ge re etla mo go tša dipolelo, rena re le ba ANC gammogo

le lefapha, re kgonthišitše gore go be le bhoto yeo e

agiwago, e lego Pan-South African Language Board. Bhoto

ye e na le mošomo o mogologolo, o e bilego e le sephara.

E swanetše go kgonthišiša gore maleme a rena ka moka a

tšwela pele. Lefapha le le swanetše go kgonthišiša gore

maleme a batho ba gabo rena a išwa godimo go swana le

maleme ka moka, go se ke gwa be le leleme leo le

tšeelwago fase. Le na le mošomo wa go kgonthišiša gore

maleme ka moka a thekgwa, e bile a a hlokomelwa. Le gona

ka mo ntlong ye, re swanetše go kgonthišiša gore maleme

a a hlomphiwa. [Legoswi.]



Maleme a rena ke a mantši, eupsa ga go na leleme leo le

lego godimo ga le lengwe. Ntlo ye e swanetše go

kgonthišiša gore dingwalwa le tšohle tšeo di dirwago ka

mo ntlong ye di a fetolelwa, gape le gore dipolelo tša

rena di a agiwa.



Ge re etla mo go ngwalweng, polelo ya rena e swanetše go

hlweka gore e tle e kgone go amogelega mo setšhabeng. Ke
24 May 2002                                  Page 130 of 176


leboga Tona ka gore ke lemogile gore le mo peakanyong ya

lefapha o lekile gore a bee šeleng ka thoko gore ge

kabinete e fetša go amogela ditšhišinyo tša gagwe, a se

ke a ba le letlakajana, eupša a e thekge ka šeleng gore

e kgone go tšwela pele. Se ke tsela yeo re swanetšego

gore re šome ka yona.



Modulasetulo, go nyaka gore gape re hlokomele tsela yeo

re šomišanago le setšhaba sa rena ka gona. Mokgwa woo e

lego gore ge re šoma, re le mo re le baetapele, menyako

ka moka e phetha tseo re ilego ra ikana gore di tla

dirwa. Ke ra ka gore re a tseba gore metse-setoropong

yeo re dulago go yona lehono go na le maleme a mantši.

Ka moka re nyaka gore maleme a a hlomphiwe. Eupša ge

tšhelete e sa thekge mešomo yeo, re tla no fela re

hwetša re šalela morago.



Re a tseba gore ka setšo sa gabo rena re kgona go

hlaloša tšeo di sa re swarego gabotse, tšeo di re

kwišago bohloko, le tšeo re di thabelago. Ke nyaka go

dira mohlala ka dibini tše pedi tšeo ke di hlomphago

kudu. Ke bolela ka yoo a šetšego a re šiile, e lego yena

Mpharanyane. Mpharanyane e be e le monna wa go tšwa ka

mo Foreisetata, a kgona go opela kudu. Go la Natala go
24 May 2002                                  Page 131 of 176


na le monna o mongwe yoo a bitšwago Vusi ... Ge o

theeleditše mmino wa gagwe o kgona go kwišiša gore kua

dinagamagaeng, go swana le KwaZulu-Natal, go direga eng

ge re etla mo go jeng nama, ka gore monna yo o bolela ka

mokgwa wo a kunanago ka gona le ka mokgwa wo yena a

ratago tša batho ba bangwe. O tloga a itlhalosa gore le

ge a gobetše, ge nama e le mo kgauswi a ka se e tlogele

yona. Le sepetlele a ka se ye. [Lesego.] Tše ke dilo

tšeo re tsebago gore di a direga, gomme ke ka lebaka la

setšo ge re kgona go laodiša ka dilo tše - maemo ao re

ikhwetšago go ona.



Mpharanyana yo ke rego ke a mo rata, ke gopola ka ngwaga

wa 1975. Re ile ra tsena lebenkeleng la Edgars leo

lehono batho ba baso ba rekago go lona ka bontši. Le be

le sa bulele batho ba baso diakhanto ka nako yeo. O be o

re ge o tsena, o swanetše gore o ntshe ka potleng o itie

tafola. Go ile ge go thoma nako ya go dumelela bathobaso

go bula diakhanto, ka gore e be e le selo seo se bego se

re tšhošitše e bile se re tlabile rena batho ba baso

gore o ka šomiša molato bjang? O ka thabela go šomiša

dilo tša batho bjang? Mpharanyana a hlama koša ya gore

``ke yo Puleng, o di ragela pele le morago'', ka gore o

kgahlile ke lesogana a le bona le apere gabotse, a re ke
24 May 2002                                     Page 132 of 176


raditšhelete, kganthe motho yo o kolota mabenkele le

setšhaba ka moka. [Legoswi.] [Lesego.]



Se ke mokgwa woo batho ba rena ba bego ba hlatholla

mathata ao ba bego ba hlakana le ona mo bophelong. Ka

lebaka leo ke ra gore Tona ga a tšwele pele go thekga

batho ba gabo rena ba naga ye gore re ntshe bokgoni bja

rena ka botlalo.



Ke nyaka go fetola gannyane polelo yeo re e kwelego e

tšwa go Morena Opperman. Ke a kgolwa gore ka moka ga

rena re a tseba gore go na le setšo seo se tlilego le

bao ba bego ba re kholonaesitše. Tona o tla ntshwarela,

ka gore nna ke le Motubatse ga ke kgone go kwešiša gore

naa opera ballet e swanetše go tšeelwa godimo go feta

dilo tše dingwe mo nageng ya rena? Ke a tseba gore ba

gona batho bao ba theeletšego mmino wo, e fela ke ba ba

kae gore šeleng ka moka e ka lahlelwa ka moo?



Ke a kgolwa gore ge re ka lebelela dibini tšeo re nago

natso, re ka kgona go tšwela pele kudu. Ke nyaka go

direla tona mohlala pele ke dula fase. Ge o eya ka thoko

ya Mashishing, go na le toropo ka Mpumalanga yeo e

bitšwago Mashishi a magolo, ge re e reta. Go na le
24 May 2002                                   Page 133 of 176


mehlare yeo e bjetšwego moo ka bontši. Ge motho a

lebelela mehlare ye, e mengwe ya yona ke e mebotse ge o

le kgole, e fela ge o batamela o lemoga gore ga go na le

bjang le bjo bonnyane ka fase ga mohlare, eupša mohlare

o go kgahlile. Ge o lebeledišiša gabotse ka fase ga

mohlare wo, o hwetša e le gore mohlare wo o nwa meetse

kudukudu, ga o dumele gore go be le sebjalo seo se

melago ka tlase ga wona. Le ge go le bjalo, motho o

kgona go hwetša mehlare yeo e lego ya naga ye, yeo le

dinonyana di ipshinago ka go bea dihlaga tša tšona mo go

yona.



Mmino le ona o ka tsela yeo. Go na le mebino yeo re e

tšeago kgole, gomme ya se age setšhaba sa rena. Go na le

mmino woo o rego ge o lahletše seleng ka go ona,

setšhaba sa tšwela pele, le bana ba rena ba tseba setšo

sa gabo rena, ba tloga le mo mekgobeng, ra fetša bošaedi

bjoo bo dirwago ke bana ba rena. [Legoswi.]



Ge ke ruma, ke tla boela lelemeng le la sejakane, ka

gore ke nyaka gore Tona a nkwišiše gabotse. (Translation

of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)
24 May 2002                                  Page 134 of 176


[As the ANC we support this Budget Vote because we have

promised to work for the people. We hope that the

Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology will

use this money for the good of the people. One of the

things that they promised they would do was to ensure

that the budget was used for the development of

communities, so that they could show their skills,

abilities and capabilities.



We have realised that the department has a duty to

support those who have skills in arts and culture, so

that they may be helped out of the poverty in which they

are submerged. Our Government must support these people,

for they voted us into power.



Our country is very rich. Its wealth is different from

other countries' because it includes knowledge, culture

and skills. That is why we are saying that the

department should support our people so that this

heritage and these skills may be known worldwide.



When we come to the issue of languages, as the ANC and

as the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and

Technology, we ensured that the Pan-South African
24 May 2002                                  Page 135 of 176


Language Board was established. It has a huge task. It

has to ensure that our languages are developed. This

department, too, has to ensure that our languages are

elevated to the same level as other languages. There

should not be any single language which is looked down

upon. The board has to ensure that all languages are

supported and promoted. Even in this House we must make

sure that languages are respected. [Applause.]



We have many languages, but there is no one language

which is above others. This House must ensure that all

speeches and documents in Parliament are translated into

other languages, and that these languages are further

developed.



When we come to the issue of writing, our languages must

be superb, so that they are accepted by the communities.

I would like to thank the Minister because I have

realised that, in an effort to transform the department,

he put aside enough money so that after Cabinet had

accepted his proposition, he would have the money to

carry out those ideas. This is the way in which we have

to work.
24 May 2002                                  Page 136 of 176


Chairperson, we also have to revisit the way in which we

work with our communities. As leaders, we have to do the

things that we have promised we will do. I would like to

make an example by citing two musicians that I respect

very much. They are the late Mpharanyana and Vusi.

Mpharanyana came from the Free State and he could sing

marvelously. In KwaZulu-Natal there is Vusi. If one

listens to his music, one is able to know what happens

in rural areas, like much of KwaZulu-Natal, with regard

to issues such as eating meat, because this man talks

about how greedy he is and, amazingly, how he likes to

be bailed out by other people. He even says that no

matter how bad his health might be, if there were meat,

he would go out and eat. He says he would not even go to

hospital. [Laughter.] These are the things which we know

are happening - circumstances that we find ourselves in.

It is because of our culture that we get to know about

them.



I remember that in 1975 Mpharanyana, whom I have said I

liked, sang a certain song. So, one day in 1975 we went

to Edgars stores. It is amazing how many black people

are purchasing things from this store. Back then it was

not their policy for black people to open an account
24 May 2002                                     Page 137 of 176


with them. Black people were forced to buy for cash.

When things started to become better in the country and

black people were allowed to open accounts, we were

shocked, because we could not contemplate how we could

be allowed to take things from a shop without parting

with our money. How could one be happy using other

people's things without paying for them? Then

Mpharanyana composed a song titled `` Ke yo Puleng, o di

ragela pele le morago [Here is Puleng, he is at sixes

and sevens]. He sang about a lady who saw Puleng and

liked him because of the beautiful clothes he wore, not

knowing that he owed all these shops and a number of

people. [Applause.] [Laughter.]



This is how our people could tell about their

circumstances and problems in life. Therefore, I would

like to urge the Minister to continue supporting our

people so that skills such as the ones I talked about

could come to the fore.



I would like to deviate a bit and turn to the hon

Opperman. I am quite sure that all of us know that we

have a culture brought about by those who colonised us.

The hon the Minister will bear with me, because I cannot
24 May 2002                                  Page 138 of 176


understand how opera and ballet could be held in high

esteem compared to other things in our own country. I

know that there are people who listen to this kind of

music, but how many are they to warrant that money

should be thrown in their direction?



I am quite sure that if we could look after our

musicians, then we would go forward as a nation. I just

want to cite one example for the hon the Minister before

I sit down. There is a town around Mashishing, in

Mpumalanga, called the great Mashishing, that is when we

praise the town. There are a number of trees planted in

that area. Some of these trees are very beautiful if one

looks at them from afar, but when one comes nearer, one

finds they are not as beautiful as they were when one

was far away, and that there is no grass under these

trees. When one looks closely at these trees, one

realises that they absorb quite a substantial volume of

water and, as a result, do not allow any plants

whatsoever to grow under them. However, these are wild

trees which are very beautiful, and birds like to build

their nests in them.
24 May 2002                                  Page 139 of 176


Music is exactly the same. There are some types of music

that we import from the outside world, and they do not

build our nation. Yet there is one that, if we could put

our money into it, would help develop our people, and

also help our children to know their cultures so they

could be kept off the streets. [Applause.]



In conclusion, I would like to turn to English, because

I want the hon the Minister to understand me.]



There is so much that the department is doing. I think

the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology

is one of the best departments. [Applause.] That is in

spite of the huge tasks confronting the Minister and the

Deputy Minister. To monitor 48 state institutions is not

child's play, but I want to ask a question. I do not

know what the Minister and the Deputy Minister have done

to the gentlemen and ladies of the press, because we do

not see this work being captured by the media. We do not

hear much said about all these good things that are

happening. Maybe the hon the Minister could respond to

that?
24 May 2002                                  Page 140 of 176


Lastly, as a committee, we do not want to see a roll-

over in this department because we believe that the

community centres that are out there in the townships

and the villages can absorb the department's budget and

definitely ensure that our people find meaning in their

lives and can remember where they come from and shape

their destiny. [Applause.]



The MINISTER OF ARTS, CULTURE, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY:

Chairperson, I would like to thank the last hon member

to speak here for recognising the wonderful work that my

colleague Mrs Mabandla and I are trying to do, in

partnership with the director-general, Dr Rob Adam, who

heads the department.



Well, quite clearly, the press write stories to sell

their newspapers, not to sing the praises of the

Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology and

the Deputy Minister. So we will hope to impress the

wonderful work that we are doing upon the press and make

them turn it into stories that excite the country to be

more creative and original and therefore to work very

hard to attain excellence, because one cannot be a great

scientist, researcher or dancer unless one works very,
24 May 2002                                    Page 141 of 176


very hard to sharpen one's skills and attain excellence.

[Applause.]



There are issues that have been raised here. I would

just like to briefly say that because of the

transformation of the performing arts councils into

playhouses that we have carried out, we have managed to

save a lot of money to give directly to performing arts

companies of national significance. Through the

restructuring of the State Theatre, we were able to save

R10 million, which was allocated to performing arts

companies of national significance. We see the evidence

of this. Cats at the State Theatre is playing to packed

audiences week after week. We have seen it at Artscape

and at the Civic. New performances are coming through

because the arts companies are getting money directly

from us, not as before, when they had to depend on the

boards of performing arts councils. We have actually

rescued the situation rather than made it worse.



We are also attending this year to more companies,

covering as many genres as possible. We want to cover

everything from traditional operas, as we saw with

Princess Magogo KaDinizulu in Durban, to very, very
24 May 2002                                   Page 142 of 176


classical ballet, such as Swan Lake, because these are

part of our heritage. Our children must be able to

perform any of these. That is why we have established a

music and dance troupe, so that we can capture all the

dances. Whether Volkspele or Khoisan dance, we will

capture it in a group that is capable of presenting this

rich heritage, not just for us, but right across the

world. Those things are happening and we are increasing

the money that we are giving directly to arts companies

to R20 million and not channelling it via the playhouses

as before. [Applause.]



We are also very much involved with issues other than

classical music. We are looking at the classical values

that make this nation survive and be great.



We know that religion and family values teach children

respect for the law and parents teach them life skills

so that they can survive pressures from their peers,

particularly when it comes to sexual activity. We are

attending to all these things. We organised and launched

the moral regeneration conference this year. We are

carrying on, working with groups such as Focus on the

Family in Durban to create documentation and training
24 May 2002                                  Page 143 of 176


programmes to be supplied to students, so that they can

be able to stand up, protect themselves and take their

own well thought-out decisions.



Another issue that was raised which is of concern to us

is the naming of places. The hon Aucamp is quite

correct; we cannot just be legalistic and mechanistic in

the allocation of new names or name changes. We have to

go deeper than that. We have to look at the process by

which a new name is adopted, but we must also look at

the issue of equity, of justice and of balance. We do

not want to create polarised societies in this country.

We are interested in the culture of the nation. We must

be the ones who build the type of value system that

makes for accommodation, tolerance and understanding.



As far as agriculture is concerned I would like to

correct the hon Van Niekerk. We are very concerned about

the state of affairs at the Agricultural Research

Council. The problems came in 1994 when huge areas of

transformation were made by the previous government,

where they hived off people into different research

institutes for agriculture without accompanying

financial transfers. We sit in the ARC with huge unpaid
24 May 2002                                     Page 144 of 176


leave entitlements that make that institution

unattractive to top scientists and researchers. We are,

however, dealing with this issue with the Minster of

Agriculture.



As far as PanSALB is concerned, ie the one-sidedness of

the language service, we are attending to this. We are

finalising the issue of the Bill with Cabinet. We are

dealing with education, which is now the only area that

is unresolved, with the Minister. But we are working

with the Minister so that we can get the language Bill

before this Parliament. We are obviously going to have

to look at some options that will be acceptable to my

Cabinet colleagues. What we came with after the language

plan task team concluded their recommendation was very

comprehensive. However, some people have thought there

should be additional changes and modifications. We are

looking at this to provide sufficient options that will

still carry out the injunction of the Constitution to be

equitable in language, but at the same time addressing

the realities that we face.



As far as Mr Gore is concerned, ie on the issue of

Microsoft, we are very grateful to Mr Bill Gates for
24 May 2002                                  Page 145 of 176


making this donation. We are absolutely appreciative.

However, as we plan to create an advanced institute for

ICTs in the country, we need to create a platform over

and above what the universities and technikons provide,

so that we have an institute like Caltek and many other

institutes in different countries that specialise in

expertise, research and development which is above that

which is normally seen in university teaching and

research.



So for this reason we will need to develop open-source

software, because we have to develop our industries

through the Internet or through the open-source

networks. No country can do this through proprietary

technology because it has licence conditions that limit

what one can do. It was in this spirit that the National

Advisory Council on Innovation proposed that Cabinet

adopt an approach that includes open-source software as

a strategic issue in our research and development

strategy.



On the whole I want to say that the debate has been very

encouraging. We are very grateful that hon members see

the inadequacy of the funding. To be funded at 0,7% of
24 May 2002                                       Page 146 of 176


GDP when we have this huge inheritance of excellent R&D

infrastructure and personnel in the country, is to

devalue that inheritance. So Cabinet understands this

and I am quite certain that we will be increasing the

budget that goes to research and development, to science

and technology and to the cultural industries of our

country.



I wish to thank my colleagues very much and invite them

to join us for lunch at the Marks Building. [Applause.]



Debate concluded.



              PROBATION SERVICES AMENDMENT BILL



                    (Second Reading debate)



The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Mr Chairperson,

thank you for the opportunity to address the National

Assembly on the occasion of the second reading debate on

the Probation Services Amendment Bill.



The Bill is another significant milestone of the

Government and indeed this nation's effort to transform
24 May 2002                                  Page 147 of 176


and further strengthen the country's criminal justice

system. This is underpinned by our request and our quest

to protect our society from all forms of criminality,

while at the same time upholding the rights of children

as enshrined in the Constitution. In this regard the

introduction of this amendment to the Probation Services

Act, No 116 of 1991, will go a long way in ensuring the

achievements of that objective and the fostering of an

integrated justice system.



The objectives of these amendments are the following:

Inserting the definition relevant to the child and youth

care system; inserting the definition of a family

finder; introducing assessment, support, referral and

mediation services in respect of victims of crime;

introducing crime prevention strategies through the

provision of early intervention programmes, including

diversion services and family group conference; and

providing for the establishment of restorative justice

programmes and services as part of appropriate

sentencing and diversion options.



Further, the objectives are to provide for the

reception, assessment and referral of an accused person
24 May 2002                                  Page 148 of 176


and the rendering of early intervention services and

programmes; the investigation of the circumstances of an

accused person and the provision of a pre-trial report

on the desirability or otherwise of prosecution, and the

investigation of the circumstances of convicted persons;

providing for the duties of assistant probation

officers; and lastly, providing for the mandatory

assessment of every arrested child within 48 hours of

his/her arrest.



Our Constitution requires that every arrested person

must be brought before court within 48 hours of being

arrested. It provides that a child can only be detained

as a measure of last resort. This provision echoes

article 40 of the UN convention on the Rights of

Children, which South Africa has ratified.



In line with our Constitution, the department's 10-point

programme and plan prioritises addressing the problem of

children who are in conflict with the law. The problem

of children who are in conflict with the law is a

serious challenge which is facing the country at this

moment. It requires urgent attention and involvement of

all sectors of our society, including the Free State.
24 May 2002                                  Page 149 of 176


There are currently about 2 322 children under the age

of 18 awaiting trial in prisons, and 1 767 of these

children are awaiting trial in social development

facilities, ie secure places of safety and care. The

introduction of this Bill seeks to provide a legislative

framework that will strengthen Government's initiative

relating to probation services that are already

undertaken through pilot projects, in order to improve

services and service delivery.



My department, with the assistance of donor funding, has

studied establishment, assessment and referral centres

for children in conflict with the law, as well as the

one-stop justice centre in Port Elizabeth. This centre

was established in partnership with the Departments of

Correctional Services, Safety and Security, and Justice

and Constitutional Development. Furthermore, other

pilots were introduced through the appointment of

assistant probation officers in the Western Cape,

Limpopo and Mpumalanga.



At present we have only 60 assistant probation officers

in the country and there are plans to appoint more.

These assistant probation officers are involved in
24 May 2002                                  Page 150 of 176


monitoring persons placed under house arrest and

assessed by probation officers. Between September 1998

and February 2002, 379 children were placed under the

care of their parents and under the supervision of

probation officers. The progress of these children was

monitored by assistant probation officers.



The appointment of these assistant probration officers

will go a long way in providing a quality service to

children in conflict with the law. The placement of

children under the care of their parents and under the

supervision of officers has cost benefits for the state.

On the one hand it costs on average of R94,60 per day

for a child awaiting trial in prison, while on the other

hand when under house arrest it costs only R2,69 per

day.



The added benefit of this programme is that children

awaiting trial under the care of their parents and under

the supervision of probation officers are provided with

a family environment which will enhance the wellbeing of

those children. It should be noted that out of those 379

children, 188 had their cases eventually withdrawn in

court. This means that 188 children could have been in
24 May 2002                                  Page 151 of 176


prison awaiting trail for a year or longer and could

have had their lives totally disrupted and their

schooling interrupted only to have the charges

ultimately withdrawn.



My department has plans to replicate this programme

throughout the country, especially in rural areas where

these services are inadequate.



The decision to place a child under family care must

obviously be carefully weighed against the concerns of

safety and security of the community, and the process of

assessment is essential in this regard.



This process will require that we work in partnership

with families, law enforcement agencies, courts and

indeed society as a whole. The passing of the Probation

Services Amendment Bill will pave the way for the Child

Justice Bill, which was approved by Cabinet in November

last year and is due to be introduced in Parliament in

the very near future.



The Probation Services Amendment Bill will provide legal

certainty to innovative practices and practitioners who
24 May 2002                                     Page 152 of 176


have been doing their best to provide a progressive and

effective service. It will help to ensure equality of

service provision so that all children in South Africa,

as well as adults requiring assistance, may be provided

with services of high quality. We must work together to

ensure that South Africa's children come first.

[Applause.]



Mr J SELFE: Chairperson, I would like at the outset to

apologise for the fact that my colleague the hon Sandy

Kalyan is unable to be here today. She asked me to speak

on her behalf and it is indeed a privilege to

participate in this debate on such an important topic.



Everybody who lives in South Africa is aware of the

abnormally high levels of criminality in our society.

Many criminals, particularly here in the Western Cape,

become involved in gangs and crime at a very early age,

sometimes as early as 10 years of age. By their late

teens thse people are hardened criminals, like Renaldo

Miller, who, at the age of 17, raped and murdered six-

year-old Samantha Isaacs in Lavender Hill.
24 May 2002                                  Page 153 of 176


This sort of thing happens every single day in all our

communities across South Africa. The Minister has

referred to this as a serious problem. It is not only a

serious problem; it is a tragic problem that really

undermines the whole social fabric of our society.



Renaldo Miller has appropriately been sentenced to two

terms of life imprisonment. The question is whether, in

different circumstances and with early intervention, the

tragic murder of Samantha Isaacs could have been

avoided.



The Constitution and other legislation guarantee the

rights of children, and one of these rights is only to

be imprisoned or detained as a measure of last resort.

One of the major reasons for this is to prevent the

contamination of first-time offenders by other, more

hardened, criminals. As the Minister has said, many of

these first-time offenders have their cases withdrawn in

any event.



This is one of the things that this Bill seeks to

achieve: early intervention and assessment of juvenile

criminals with a view to breaking the cycle of
24 May 2002                                  Page 154 of 176


criminality. For these reasons, we welcome the

amendments. However, we have some misgivings about the

practicality of giving effect in particular to the

provisions of the new section 4B.



The department of social services assured the committee

that at least 80 assistant probation officers will

shortly be appointed countrywide, and that where there

are no probation officers, social workers can assess

children. The reality is - and I think we all need to

accept it - that 80 assistant probation officers for the

entire country is probably too few.



We are worried that staff shortages will mean that

assessments will take longer than 48 hours, and that

will mean that either a child is released without an

assessment, or the child will be detained for a longer

period, exposing them to precisely the criminal gang

elements this Bill seeks to avoid.



We, therefore, support the amendment, but would like to

see the appointment of probation officers as quickly as

possible, and hopefully the appointment of more of them.

We would also like to see a firm commitment to the 48
24 May 2002                                  Page 155 of 176


hour rule, so as to ensure that children who do not

constitute a danger to society are kept out of the

criminal justice system. [Applause.]



Dr O S B BALOYI: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, hon

members, today we are debating amendments to the

Probation Services Act, No 116 of 1991, the objects of

which are to provide interim measures to facilitate the

transformation of the child and youth care system and

the proposed Child Justice Bill.



This Bill introduces crime prevention strategies through

the provision of early intervention programmes like

family group conferencing. It also provides for the

establishment of programmes aimed at the prevention and

combating of crime, and rendering assistance to the

treatment of certain persons involved in crime.



The powers and duties of probation officers are extended

in this Bill. A probation advisory committee is also

established to advise the Minister on matters regarding

the probation services.
24 May 2002                                  Page 156 of 176


The Bill makes provision for the creation of assistant

probation officers in the respective provinces whose

duties will include the monitoring of persons placed

under house arrest, family finding and assisting a

probation officer in their duty.



Another useful amendment in this Bill is the provision

of mandatory assessment of every arrested child within

48 hours of his or her arrest. The challenge, however,

is whether the department will have the capacity to

carry out these assessments within the 48 hours. Indeed,

during the committee stage of the Bill opinions were

offered that maybe this provision should be omitted

until such time as the question of enough resources has

been addressed by the department.



It is our opinion that there are enough social workers

out there who may act as probation officers, if only

they can change what they are doing currently. We are

mindful that the provision will force the Department of

Social Development to appoint more probation officers to

address the issue. We call on the department to do

exactly that.
24 May 2002                                    Page 157 of 176


The department could interface with tertiary

institutions in order to collectively find ways of

increasing the numbers of qualified social workers in

the service. Alternatively, we call on a paradigm shift

whereby there will be a reduction in the numbers of

social workers doing case work, which is not proactive

and instead increases promotive and preventive services.



There has been adequate consultation and interface with

relevant role-players and we are satisfied with that.

The IFP supports the Probation Services Amendment Bill

and trusts that these amendments will facilitate - in

the interim, while waiting for the Child Justice Bill -

the transformation of the child and youth care system.

[Applause.]



Mr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD: Chairperson, on 18 April the

Deputy President launched the Moral Regeneration

Movement in an effort to stop the moral decay in the

country. The New NP believes that a major part of this

decay can be contributed to the breakdown in the family

system, partly because parents simply fail to fulfil

their parental duties and because the influence of the

day is conducive to the creation of a generation of
24 May 2002                                  Page 158 of 176


youth who are of the opinion that it is acceptable to

commit certain levels of crime in order to survive.



This country has a responsibility to protect its

children against the dark future of crime and the

resultant imprisonment which could be the start of a

vicious cycle which some people never escape from and

could ultimately end in death. I believe that we all

agree that the transformation of the child and youth

care system is long overdue. Although the Bill before us

today only seeks to act as an interim measure to

facilitate this transformation process, any steps to

address the problem of child and youth care should be

welcomed.



We believe that the 48-hour mandatory restriction for

assessment of every arrested child should go a long way

in speeding up the process of either getting the child

back with his family or setting the assessment and

referral process in operation. The Bill makes provision

for the speedy investigation of the circumstances of the

accused and the provision of a pretrial report. The

identifying of a family finder, whose main function

would be to trace the parents or guardian of the child
24 May 2002                                     Page 159 of 176


who is being prosecuted, is strengthening the whole

process.



In die finale opsomming verwelkom die Nuwe NP die

instelling van 'n advieskomitee oor proefdienste wat die

Minister kan adviseer oor proefdienste in die land.

Hierdie liggaam sal hopelik daartoe bydra dat die proses

voortdurend aangepas sal word by die jongste behoeftes

wat mag ontstaan sodat daar op die bes moontlike wyse

met kinders gehandel kan word. As gevolg van hierdie

paar punte wat ek uitgelig het, het die Nuwe NP geen

beswaar om hierdie wetsontwerp te steun nie.

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)



[In the final analysis, the New NP welcomes the

establishment of an advisory committee on probationary

periods, which can advise the Minister about times of

probation in the country. Hopefully this body will

contribute to the continual adjustment of the process

according to the latest needs that may arise in order to

deal with youths in the best possible manner. Because of

these few points that I have highlighted, the new NP has

no objection to supporting this Bill.]
24 May 2002                                  Page 160 of 176


Prof L M MBADI: Chairperson, Aa, Rhecizulu! The UDM

supports the Probation Services Amendment Bill. As South

Africa is faced with a sharp increase in crime, it has

become necessary to review the current probation

practices in order to reduce recommitting of an offence

and the high prison population. The number of children

incarcerated and institutionalised can only drop if

effective programmes are put in place to prevent crime.

The country has few probation officers to render

services with regard to crime prevention, divergent

programmes, family group conferencing and effective

supervision services.



To overcome the crisis of the shortage of probation

officers, an occupational class called assistant

probation officers was created. In order to include this

occupational class, ``assistant probation officer'', in

the existing Probation Services Act, clause 1(1),

``authorised assistant officer'' has been added to the

definition of ``authorised probation officer''. A

probation officer is a person who complies with the

prescribed requirements and who has been appointed under

clause 2, and includes an assistant probation officer.
24 May 2002                                     Page 161 of 176


The assistant probation officer is appointed under

clause 2 and works under the supervision of a probation

officer. In order to accommodate the assistant probation

officers in the amendments, section 4 (2) (a) and (b) of

Act 116 of 1991 have been left intact. Their duties are

spelt out as follows: The monitoring of persons placed

in house arrest; family finding and assisting a

probation officer with his or her duties.



In terms of insertion 4b, the probation officer has to

carry out a mandatory assessment of arrested children

alleged to have committed an offence as soon as

possible, but not later than 48 hours after his or her

arrest.



The UDM appreciates the timeframes set and hopes that

this will be met even in areas where the road

infrastructure militates against accessibility. All this

is done in the interest of the child. [Time expired.]

[Applause.]



Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Chairperson, the state that our

prisons are in today simply cannot provide an

environment in which to rehabilitate young offenders.
24 May 2002                                  Page 162 of 176


The Bill provides a few improvements which I will now

highlight. It focuses on crime prevention with the

emphasis on early intervention strategies. This is very

important. The nature of these programmes is built upon

the restorative justice approach, with an emphasis on

diversion away from the formal criminal justice system.

However, public safety must be considered when diversion

is applied.



The ACDP has always advocated victim-offender mediation

and the restorative justice approach. The Bill supports

this approach in providing powers and duties to the

probation officer that are referenced against the

assessment and appropriate support needs of the arrested

child.



The ACDP is especially pleased, in terms of the

definition of ``assessment'' in the Bill, that it takes

into account the impact of the offence on the victim.



We therefore support the Bill where it aims to assist

young offenders through intervention programmes to

adjust their behaviour according to programmes that will

guide them to live more responsible lives.
24 May 2002                                  Page 163 of 176


Mr E SALOOJEE: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members,

the amending Bill before the House today seeks to

improve the legal framework within which to expand our

existing system of probation services. The hon the

Minister has already pointed out a number of significant

elements of this Bill. Because of the size of the Bill,

it may seem to some members that it is an insignificant

piece of legislation, but, in fact, it forms an

important step in the transformation of the child and

youth justice system. Although we want to make this

debate a short one, that should not suggest in any way

that this Bill is not of great importance.



The amendments to the Probation Services Act of 1991

provide for the appointment of assistant probation

officers and for the introduction of measures aimed at

fighting crime through early intervention in the area of

child justice. To this effect, it defines certain

concepts that are integral to the system, like, as has

been mentioned, family finding, family conferencing and,

of course, diversion programmes. I do not want to

mention all the other things that have already been

referred to.
24 May 2002                                    Page 164 of 176


We know that some of these practices and services are

already in operation in some areas, but we must

acknowledge that they are essentially part of a new

paradigm in the way Government and ultimately society

deals with young persons in trouble with the law.



The amendments form part of a historic and fundamental

shift towards restorative justice, which is an approach

to crime prevention and management that is aimed at

holding offenders directly accountable to the people

they have violated and at restoring the losses and harm

suffered by the victims.



It is internationally accepted that the framework of

restorative justice provides an opportunity for the

offender, through a process that could involve victims,

families and members of the community, to be

reintegrated into the community. This is critical in

view of research findings internationally that have

suggested that the earlier an intervention of the

restorative kind takes place, the greater the chance

that the young offender will not become a hardened

criminal.
24 May 2002                                   Page 165 of 176


Elements in the Bill that speak specifically to the idea

of restorative justice are those practices that will

enable both officials in the Department of Social

Development and officials in the criminal justice system

to make decisions about whether a child offender should

be dealt with through the formal court system or whether

the child and his or her community stand to benefit more

if the child is diverted from the court system and

ultimately prison.



The Bill empowers the Minister to establish further

services and programmes aimed at early intervention and

diversion for children in respect of whom an assessment

has indicated that they are suitable candidates for such

a programme.



It also gives the Minister the discretion to establish a

probation advisory committee to advise him on issues

around the services. Our committee hopes that the hon

Minister will set up such a committee, and that through

this committee courts could be sensitised to the needs

and rights of children in the court system.
24 May 2002                                  Page 166 of 176


A very important aspect of the Bill that elicited

lengthy discussions in the portfolio committee is the

insertion of 4B, which states that:



  Every child who is alleged to have committed an

  offence shall as soon as possible, but not later than

  48 hours after his or her arrest, be assessed by a

  probation officer.]



The aim of this procedure is that a probation officer

will do an assessment of every detained child to

establish whether the child should be diverted out of

the formal court system and, therefore, forms a crucial

link in the effectiveness of the diversion programme.

This is where we had this long discussion.



From all the evidence that I have secured, and some very

recently, a significant number of additional probation

officers has been appointed. In fact, this whole concept

of assistant probation officers would assist. We must be

mindful of the fact that there are literally thousands

of registered social workers who could also be deployed

into this aspect of the work until such time as we are
24 May 2002                                  Page 167 of 176


able to ensure that there are sufficient probation

officers to deal with this problem effectively.



We must point out that this section is consistent with

the constitutional provision that every detained person

must appear in court within 48 hours after his or her

arrest, provided that the expiry of the 48 hours

coincides with a normal court day. Therefore, this is an

important step towards ensuring that we realise those

rights enshrined in our Constitution.



However, members expressed real concern that in view of

resource constraints, the Department of Social

Development might not be in a position to ensure that

this procedure takes place within the timeframe

mentioned. We are, in fact, currently faced with a

situation that hundreds of children remain in prison

precisely because of a lack of capacity and resources on

the side of Social Development.



With regard to social services, there is a lot to be

attended to by a probation officer. But this is

precisely the point that we make, that there has been a

dramatic improvement, as I pointed out previously, and
24 May 2002                                  Page 168 of 176


that we could deal with these problems substantially and

within the very near future be able to provide a

complete and adequate service.



We are also faced with the reality that there is a huge

disparity between the availability of probation officers

in urban centres and rural areas. These questions have

been part of the history of this amending Bill, which

was already under discussion and review in 1990, and is

being dealt with by the department. There is sufficient

evidence in documents. We do not have the time to go

into that, but from what I have read I am absolutely

convinced that we are rapidly building capacity.



Despite current shortcomings in allocation, we must

establish the principle in law that constitutional

imperatives place an obligation on Government to make

services and resources available that will see, at

least, the phased realisation of constitutional rights.

We have been given a clear understanding that the

department has developed the system of probation

officers to such an extent that the services set out in

this Bill are now feasible.
24 May 2002                                  Page 169 of 176


From the side of the committee we want to signal that we

will be monitoring the implementation of this Bill very

carefully to ensure that where gaps continue to exist,

the Government is urged to make sufficient resources

available so that those gaps can be filled. And here I

say this should not just be the responsibility of

members of Parliament who are members of the Social

Development committee. I think it should be the

responsibility of all parliamentarians when they do

their constituency work.



Finally, I want to return to the historic significance

of this Bill. Not only will it serve to strengthen the

functioning of the probation service system, but it

forms part of a broader review of a whole range of

legislative measures, including the child care

legislation aimed at providing for and protecting the

best interests of the child. The real historic

development is that for the first time in the history of

our country, we will soon be tabling a Bill in this

Assembly which will be a comprehensive child care Act.

Such an Act has never been part of our system.
24 May 2002                                  Page 170 of 176


All these reforms that are being effected in legislation

affecting children suggest, in a very substantial way,

the utter and complete dedication of this Government to

ensuring that the children of our country find their

proper place under the sun, and are able to live

healthy, developing lives. That will be the contribution

in the future towards a good, functioning and healthy

South African society.



The principles set out in this Bill are consistent. I

will not go through all of them. We want to believe that

it will contribute to the development of not only young

people, but also to the overall development of our

communities, and enable them to take full responsibility

for their actions and carry this responsibility by

playing a constructive rather than a destructive role in

community life. [Applause.]



The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Mr Chairperson, I

would like to take this opportunity to thank all members

and all parties for supporting this Bill and the

amendment.
24 May 2002                                  Page 171 of 176


I also share the concerns that have been voiced,

specifically around section 4B, on the possibility that

we might not necessarily have the capacity to fulfil

this. We are in a position where we are under pressure

to change it, but I fear that if we do so and remove

that 48-hour stipulation, we might run into problems in

that it might not happen in the manner that we would

want it to. As long as that is there, I think it will,

one way or the other, force the department and the

justice system in this country to do something about

those children.



But that will need, necessarily, the support of almost

everybody here, the monitoring of children under

detention and the working together, both of Government

and the whole of civil society, including the religious

sector, to ensure that what is in the Constitution

becomes a reality not only for the elderly, but more

importantly, for the children, and that we put children

first.



Once again, I would like to thank the House. [Applause.]



Debate concluded.
24 May 2002                                      Page 172 of 176


Bill read a second time.



The House adjourned at 12:18.

                        __________



       ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS



                    FRIDAY, 24 MAY 2002



ANNOUNCEMENTS:



National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:



1.   The Speaker and the Chairperson:



     (1).Ms N N Mapisa-Nqakula has, in terms of section

         93(1)(a) of the Constitution, been appointed as

         Deputy Minister of Home Affairs by the President

         of the Republic with effect from 7 May 2002.



     (2).Mr C Nqakula has, in terms of section 91(2) of

         the Constitution, been appointed as Minister of

         Safety and Security by the President of the

         Republic with effect from 7 May 2002.
24 May 2002                                    Page 173 of 176


   (3).The following Bill was introduced by the

       Minister for the Public Service and

       Administration in the National Assembly on 24

       May 2002 and referred to the Joint Tagging

       Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of

       Joint Rule 160:



       (i).State Information Technology Agency

              Amendment Bill [B 24 - 2002] (National

              Assembly - sec 75) [explanatory summary of

              Bill and prior notice of its introduction

              published in Government Gazette No 23337 of

              26 April 2002.]



       The Bill has been referred to the Portfolio

       Committee on Public Service and Administration

       of the National Assembly.



       In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the

       classification of the Bill may be submitted to

       the JTM within three parliamentary working days.



National Assembly:
24 May 2002                                   Page 174 of 176


1.   The Speaker:



     The following members have been appointed to serve on

     the Committee mentioned, viz:



     African National Congress:



     Chikane, M M

     Coetzee-Kasper, M P

     Dlamini, B O

     Lobe, M C

     Mahlawe, N

     Mnandi, P N

     Mutsila, I

     Nair, B

     Nel, A C

     Ngwenya-Kompe, M L

     Nhleko, N P

     Njobe, M A A

     Ntuli, S B

     Zitha, L



     Democratic Party:
24 May 2002                              Page 175 of 176


   Semple, J A

   Sono, B N



   Inkatha Freedom Party:



   Ngubane, H

   Roopnarain, U (Alt)



   New National Party:



   Camerer, S M



   United Democratic Movement:



   Mndende, O N



   African Christian Democratic Party:



   Southgate, R M



   Freedom Front:



   Groenewald, P J
24 May 2002                             Page 176 of 176

   United Christian Democratic Party:



   Seeco, M A



   Federal Alliance:



   Blanché, J P I



   Minority Front:



   Rajbally, S



   Afrikaner Eenheidsbeweging:



   Aucamp, C



   AZAPO:



   Nefolovhodwe, P J

				
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