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					Dev Chat 03/31/2011

--- Log opened Thu Mar 31 00:00:47 2011
00:48 < linkslice> anyone know if a guest vmotions to another host if the
zenvmwaremodeler automagically detects that and models the environment
10:48 < cmek> away
11:59 < fragfutter> anyone an idea why i get a ZCatalog error "unsuccessfully
attempted to uncatalog an object with a uid of /zport/dmd/Devices/
Discovered/devices/" when i move a device with
12:00 < Simon4> I've had that before and it didn't seem to affect anything
12:01 < fragfutter> let's hope. i just moved 50 switches to their right class using
12:03 < Simon4> it could be worth a reindex() in zendmd
12:03 < fragfutter> i need to add more switches first. seems like a pingsweep
missed quite a few of them.
14:03 < Sam-I-Am> meh
14:03 < Sam-I-Am> i need to know why one of my collectors went braindead
14:03 < Sam-I-Am> it was running, but not collecting nor pinging
14:03 < Sam-I-Am> so something went down and it didnt notice
14:04 < Sam-I-Am> and this sort of thing just randomly happens
14:04 < Sam-I-Am> think my plan for completely restarting all zenoss stuff daily
is a good idea
14:25 < Gat0rvean> is there a wildcard under Device/Configuration Properties/
zInterfaceMapIgnoreNames to ignore everything?
14:25 < Gat0rvean> I'm getting debug errors on a DS3 device "Error reading
value for <Interface Name Here> on all of it's interfaces (it's an old, old, telesyn
networks device)
15:09 < Sam-I-Am> Gat0rvean: ^(.*)
15:09 < Sam-I-Am> its just a regex
15:10 < Sam-I-Am> the other option is just remove the interfacemap collector/
modeler plugin
16:43 < Sam-I-Am> quiet in here
16:44 < Simon4> <-- hunting wabbits

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16:48 < Sam-I-Am> sounds exciting
16:50 < Simon4> developers coming soon apparently, or so my email tells me
16:50 < St3v3o> morning folks
16:52 < Sam-I-Am> yo
16:52 < Sam-I-Am> Simon4: which email list is that?
16:52 < Simon4> Sam-I-Am: dunno, nick y sends emails out occasionally, I think
it's from the zenpack comp
16:52 < Sam-I-Am> ah
16:53  * Sam-I-Am feels unprivileged
16:54 <@nyeates> Howdy all!
16:55  * nyeates hears crickets...
16:56  * joshmoore appreciates the email
16:56  * Simon4 does also
16:56 <@nyeates> np josh
16:57 <@nyeates> Josh, how was stuff been? What are you working on zenoss
16:59 < joshmoore> Major todos: get email threading in alerts and then get
more output from SSH commands (we're having odd timeout issues)
17:00 -!- nyeates changed the topic of #zenoss to: "Developers meeting ongoing
- 3.1.0 is current stable version"
17:00 <@nyeates> email threading??
17:00 < Sam-I-Am> howdy folks
17:00 <@nyeates> Hi Sam
17:01 < joshmoore> there was a discussion yesterday about it, that the CLEAR
events (among others) could show up in the same email thread as the original
17:04 <@nyeates> same email thread as in, like when you view it in your email
app? im not getting
17:04 < joshmoore> Sorry, I've been bad and haven't created the ticket yet, but
you're right. So inboxes are nice and tidy with all the emails related to one event
tied together.
17:05 < themactech> I have filters set in my email app that will color code
incoming zenoss alerts by severity, makes it much simpler to sort the alerts/clear

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17:05 < joshmoore> The id was to use the event id as the SMTP Message-Id. I'm
going to try to add that to ZenEvents/ without changing the DB, but
I may need to add some tracking information, at which case I'm going to need
more hand holding.
17:06 < joshmoore> themactech: also nice, but if I can do something that
doesn't require configuring every client, that'd be a big win.
17:06 < themactech> Even better if you could put it in a zenpack
17:07 <@nyeates> joshmoore: yeah i guess yu will have to tweak the alerts
subject to have a set/standard piece of text whether it is down or clear events
17:07 < joshmoore> Hmmm.....Not sure there are hooks to allow that. If I added
a new alert altogether "ThreadedEmail", then I could put it in a zenpack. My hope
was to provide a patch that would do this generically.
17:07 <@nyeates> hi kgoedtel
17:08 < joshmoore> nyeates: That as tha alternative suggestion, to use
tranforms to make the subjects more matchable.
17:10 <@nyeates> yeah, transforms would work cleanly; though would take
processing power if they are applying to many or most events
17:11 <@kells> I think there would be some diffiiculty with having transforms do
that.  There are some transforms that look for specific text strings in the subject
in order to do their processing (IIRC, the file system threshold stuff)
17:12 <@nyeates> BTW all, We have a nice handful of developers in the room,
both Zenoss Inc and Community flavor. Please dont hesitate to jump in with
questions or issues you are having, development or not.
17:13 < joshmoore> If I wanted to add a site-wide "UseMessageIdThreading" (as
opposed to adding a zenpack), how would I go about doing that?
17:15 < Jane_Curry> Lets be contentious today.....
17:15 < Jane_Curry> Anyone else think there has been  a big swing by Zenoss to
focusing on Enterprise rather than Core over the last 6 months??
17:16 < ptmcg> <cricket> <cricket>
17:18 <@kells> joshmoore: I think that your initial idea of updating zenactions is
probably the most expedient method.
17:19 <@kells> Avalon will change things around quite a bit though, as the
event daemons get changed out.
17:19 < joshmoore> kells: I think so, too. (Not least of which since some work is
already done). I was just going to add in the configuration option, with the hope
of having the patch accepted quicker.

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17:21 <@kells> joshmoore: I missed some of the earlier conversation.  Are you
looking to get extra MIME headers etc added to the alerts?
17:22 < joshmoore> Yeah. Message-Id and In-Reply-To, specifically.
17:22 <@nyeates> Jane_Curry: Despite the lack of replies to that, I dont think
that you are alone in that thought. Its my job to keep the community strong, and
I will be sure to let those on the Zenoss Inc side know about your feelings.
17:23 < Jane_Curry> Thanks Nick - anyone else think us "Core folk" are
somewhat unloved at the moment??
17:24 < Jane_Curry> I attended the webinar on DataCenter Insight but that is
Enterprise only and big bucks even for them......
17:24 < Jane_Curry> Meanwhile nothing happens to improve reporting for Core
17:25 < themactech> Well, for my 0.02$, my company wanted to pay Zenoss to
train me and was refused because we use Core, that sends a clear message to
17:25 < JohnnyNoc> Jane_Curry what could Zenoss Inc. do to make you feel
17:25 < Sam-I-Am> Jane_Curry: enterprise customers are also a bit in the wind
with reporting
17:25 < Jane_Curry> Another area that I keep getting asked for is creating extra
Zenoss roles ....
17:25 <@kells> joshmoore: Yeah, that's a very cool idea.
17:26 < Jane_Curry> There's an Enterprise-only ZenPack for this and I have a
feeling that techniques I used way-back with 2.4 Core don't work any more...
17:26 < Sam-I-Am> do roles do something?
17:27 < JohnnyNoc> nyeates I know we spoke about this before, but please
please please let someone know there are people who WANT to be enterprise
customers but the cost is just too high
17:27 < Jane_Curry> You ought to be able to create different roles that constrict
what they can see / do
17:28 < Sam-I-Am> Jane_Curry: yeah, that'd be nice.
17:28 < St3v3o> Has there been any progress with IPv6 support (native) for
17:28 < Sam-I-Am> the acl support in enterprise is limited at best
17:28 < Jane_Curry> I spoke to someone yesterday who just laughed at the price
of Enterprise

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17:28 < JohnnyNoc> i dont know how the number $120/device was come to,
but when you're someone like us who have nearly 1000 devices, for the cost to
be an enterprise customer it makes a lot of business sense to just outsource the
monitoring elsewhere
17:28 < Sam-I-Am> which has been a problem here, especially with reports

17:28 < JohnnyNoc> Jane_Curry yea

17:28 < Sam-I-Am> JohnnyNoc: shhh dont tell rmatte
17:29 < Sam-I-Am> i think theres some discussion of per-incident support for
17:29 < Sam-I-Am> which would be a big deal
17:29 <@nyeates> I know that we have looked into per-incident support
recently, and we got a low quantity of replies back from the community in favor
of it
17:29 < St3v3o> support for dual stack environment would be a BIG win
17:29 < JohnnyNoc> yes, i voted in that poll
17:29 < Jane_Curry> So did I
17:29 < Sam-I-Am> St3v3o: yeah, tell me abour it
17:29 < JohnnyNoc> i understand some of the idfficulty in supporting Core by
Zenoss INC.  there's little control over the install base
17:29 < Sam-I-Am> i wouldnt be surprised if the majority of core folks dont even
know about polls, or irc, etc.
17:29 < Jane_Curry> Me too for IP V6 support!!!
17:30 < JohnnyNoc> and probably a lot of non-zenoss specific work that would
need to be done.  so in that respect, i understand soemwhat limiting support to
Enterprise customers
17:30 < Sam-I-Am> i talk to a lot of people who run zenoss and they're like "oh,
what... IRC?"
17:30 < St3v3o> I've been pondering if it would be possible to add a zProperty 
to at least statically add a v6 address to use
17:30 < JohnnyNoc> but then there's the issue of cost again
17:30 < Sam-I-Am> St3v3o: zenoss hasnt a clue about v6
17:30 < Sam-I-Am> it goes a bit deeper than that i think
17:30 < Sam-I-Am> theres ipv6 ping, ipv6 snmp polling, etc
17:30 < Sam-I-Am> ick

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17:31 < St3v3o> we've shoe horned some checks (static assignments) in ..but
its getting to be a big pain
17:31 < JohnnyNoc> nyeates as a core customer with nearly 1000 devices, i'd
love to see a an enterprise option for obviously less money per device with fewer
support options perhaps
17:31 < Sam-I-Am> right now i'm lucky i run dual-stack on everything so it hasnt
become a big deal

17:31 < St3v3o> yeah snmp polling is nice…except that its off by default
17:31 < JohnnyNoc> for example, we could deal with a 24 HR SLA, and fewer
phone incidents, etc.
17:31 < JohnnyNoc> we could do much of the maintenance ourselves regarding
patches, upgrades, etc.
17:32 <@kells> WRT IPv6, that's what we've been doing for about the last

17:32 <@kells>
17:32 < JohnnyNoc> Jane_Curry I see a business opportunity here as well
17:32 < Sam-I-Am> cool
17:32 <@kells> SSH, telnet, SNMP modeling are (crossing my fingers) working
17:32 < Sam-I-Am> JohnnyNoc: or create your own third-party zenoss support
for core
17:32 < themactech> I might be in a different spot, since most of our clients are
video-centric, I really don't need many of the enterprise features, and the ones I
do need I got working in Core.  I need better documentation/support options for
17:32 < JohnnyNoc> having worked for a company with a similar business model
as Zenoss INC, there's the possibility someone(s) could incorporate and provide a
lot of these servies themselevs
17:32 < JohnnyNoc> Sam-I-Am yea, well, I'm still a noob

17:32 < JohnnyNoc>
17:32 <@kells> Traps are tricky (v1 traps can't be sent to IPv6 addresses by
17:33 < JohnnyNoc> themactech I agree 1000%
17:33 < Sam-I-Am> i'm not sure whether most of the cost for enterprise goes to
the software or the support
17:33 < Sam-I-Am> kells: the "S" doesnt mean simple

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17:33 < Jane_Curry> themactech - If Zenoss won't train you, I would!  We can
offer remote training with cloud-based machines for exercises....
17:33 < Sam-I-Am> if the cost mostly goes to support, tiers would work well
17:33 < JohnnyNoc> for example, i was hoping i could find documentation about
core plugins but no luck.  i guess i could peek in the code

17:33 <@kells> Heh
17:34 < Sam-I-Am> similar to how a lot of vendors work
17:34 <@kells> I like the phrase "CIFS: three lies in one acronym" from the
Samba team
17:34 < Sam-I-Am> theres 8x5 support, 24x7 e-mail, 24x6 phone, etc
17:34 < Sam-I-Am> er, 24x7 phone
17:34 < Jane_Curry> The "S" means stupid!
17:34 <@nyeates> Sam-I-Am: We welcome and support any third party
supporters of Core. We likely could help advertise even

17:34 < Sam-I-Am> Jane_Curry: i have better words
17:35 < Sam-I-Am> nyeates: maybe i need to start a company lol
17:35 < Sam-I-Am> zenoss4lyfe
17:35 < JohnnyNoc> Sam-I-Am i was going to suggest it
17:35 < JohnnyNoc> $20/incident, k?

17:35 < JohnnyNoc>
17:35 < Sam-I-Am> lol
17:35 < Sam-I-Am> i'll just retire to portland
17:35 < Sam-I-Am> live off coffee shops
17:35 < themactech> I have an lab as well, hardware or network connectivity
is not an issue for training, finding folks who can get me the exact answer I am
looking for has been so far my problem
17:35 < JohnnyNoc> themactech amen
17:35 < St3v3o> nyeates: Any insight you can offer for IPv6 support and if this is
a near term goal at all ?
17:35 < Sam-I-Am> themactech: we need more folks in here
17:35 < Sam-I-Am> a lot of us "specialize" in only certain aspects of zenoss
17:36 < Jane_Curry> <nyeates> - so how would you help advertise third party
supporters of Core???  There's virtually no traffic on the partner forum groups

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17:36 < themactech> I was referred to a consultant by zenoss for training, I
contacted him and gave him my grocery list, he came back to me saying for
most of the stuff he would have to consult with Zenoss devs and they would not
give me the time of day because I am on Core, he then wished me luck
17:36 < Sam-I-Am> core just doesnt make zenoss money unless someone
17:36 < Sam-I-Am> theres a clear business issue there
17:36 < JohnnyNoc> yes
17:36 < Sam-I-Am> theres also only so many support folks
17:36 < Sam-I-Am> and a LOT of users
17:37 < Sam-I-Am> hell, i open tons of cases and i'm one guy
17:37 < JohnnyNoc> Sam-I-Am you're enterprise tho correct?
17:37 < Sam-I-Am> yep
17:37 < themactech> The migrate to Enterprise from Core is a chicken and egg
issue for me, they say go to Enterprise and you will get support, I respond Core
can do all I need
17:37 < Sam-I-Am> the forums and irc are more or less the support crew for core
17:37 < Sam-I-Am> themactech: thats also an issue... product differentiation. 
however, it is growing.
17:38 < Sam-I-Am> people have hacked all sorts of enterprise stuff into core
17:38 < Sam-I-Am> a la egor
17:38 <@kells> St3v3o: Coming in Avalon
17:38 < Sam-I-Am> the big one is collectors
17:38 < JohnnyNoc> jeez, let's hope bigegor doesn't get hit by a bus
17:38 < JohnnyNoc> then we'd be SOL for sure

17:38 < JohnnyNoc>
17:38 <@nyeates> Jane: Lets brainstorm afterward.

17:38 < Sam-I-Am> zenoss competes against itself
17:38 < St3v3o> kells: any wiki articles or anything to reference what will be
supported ?
17:39 < Jane_Curry> So if there were  more folks like me trying to make a
(modest) living out of Zenoss Core, how do I get business and how do customers
find me and get satisfaction???

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17:39 < JohnnyNoc> nyeates : another thing to consider regarding pay per
incident, how about something like an audit
17:39 < Sam-I-Am> i'd do support on a case-by-case basis as a consultant, but i
dont know everything about zenoss
17:39 < Jane_Curry> Most of my customers find me through google / Zenoss
users forum (not the service group)
17:39 < themactech> My company could purchase Enterprise for some of our
larger monitoring clients, but I was also told that for us to move to Enterprise, we
would have to move our entire client base to Enterprise at 50k a year, for that
money we could hire a python guru and have him write all our stuff
17:39 < Sam-I-Am> themactech: where do live that a coder would work for 50k?
17:40 <@kells> In Avalon, we will have support for SSH, Telnet and SNMP
modeling and monitoring.  That's about all we have time for right now -- the code
freeze is happening in about a week.
17:40 <@kells> Oh, and ping, too of course.

17:40 < Sam-I-Am> kells: and ping
17:40 < JohnnyNoc> Sam-I-Am let's be honest, you could find that a lot of
places.  though the dev would prob be young and inexperienced
17:40 < Jane_Curry> Yeh - that's the problem.  If you are a 1-girl band then you
can't offer traditional service contracts - I eat, sleep, go on holiday.....
17:40 < JohnnyNoc> but that's the point i try to make too.  for our 1000 devices
that's 120k/year
17:40 < JohnnyNoc> Jane_Curry hire and train some folk!
17:40 < St3v3o> kells:  when do you expect avalon to be released ?

17:40 < JohnnyNoc>
17:40 < Sam-I-Am> not sure you'd find a python guru to write an entire
application, but they could definitely modify core. look at rmatte.
17:41 < Sam-I-Am> hell, he works for a monitoring outsource company and
doesnt use enterprise
17:41 < themactech> We would pay him more than 50k, he would not code for
our Zenoss stuff full time, hell, I am monitoring 1000+ devices, and two years
ago I knew nothing or python or SNMP, and I can only spend about 20% of my
time on it
17:41 < Jane_Curry> .. that said, I am finding more work DOES find me  and
some organisation WILL take a best-efforts contract
17:41 < themactech> I build transcoding farms, deploy digital signage, etc...

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17:42 < Sam-I-Am> i often wonder if zenoss should "officially" support core
people willing to work for some peanuts on core support cases... although it
would probably need to be split up by issue type.  i'm pretty good with network
stuff in zenoss, but not so much things like WMI.
17:42 < themactech> SNMP is only one part of my task
17:42 <@kells> We're hoping for sometime in the next couple of months -- but
that's not a formal committment.
17:42 < St3v3o> sure sure
17:42 < Sam-I-Am> basically have a case submission system on the official
zenoss web site for core stuff
17:42 < Sam-I-Am> the issue gets sent to someone decent in that area
17:43 < Sam-I-Am> zenoss can trust those folks to bring bigger issues to
17:43 < themactech> Jane, we have a web ticketing system (I made it in
Filemaker Pro), some clients even pay for 1 hour response time, in which case it
will wake our asses up on our cell phones if such clients make tickets
17:43 < themactech> You need a second person and a dispatch system
17:43 < Sam-I-Am> and if its a big problem, transfer the case to official support
and do per-incident billing
17:43 < themactech> then you can increase your customer base 
17:44 < themactech> we make big money on SNMP monitoring, all our clients
are in 24/7 production
17:44 < Jane_Curry> yeh - then you have to pay the second person......
17:44 < ptmcg> I should think an enterprising person could peruse the public
Trac system for enhancement requests that have been prioritized low, then
approach the submitter to see if they want it done for hire
17:44 < Sam-I-Am> ptmcg: theres also that.  but is it more features than bugs?
or both
17:44 < themactech> First part would be to have bullet proof documentation,
this way the Core community could do things on their own better
17:45 <@nyeates> nice idea ptmcg
17:45 < Sam-I-Am> and trac doesnt necessarily have configuration issues
17:45 < Sam-I-Am> which... seems to rule the land in here
17:45 < themactech> Most of the headaches of Core development comes from
having to figure out most stuff from scratch
17:45  * Sam-I-Am waits for the zendmd tome

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17:45 < Jane_Curry> To be fair, the documentation has improved a lot over the
last 3 years - still lots of room for improvement on the deep stuff though
17:45  * joshmoore would read it to
17:46 < themactech> God I just tackled ZenDMD scripts 2 weeks ago, almost slit
my wrists
17:46 < themactech> eventually got it working

17:46 <@kells> Heh
17:46 < Sam-I-Am> themactech: then you heal and become stronger
17:46 < Simon4> heh
17:46  * Simon4 should do contract zendmd stuff
17:46  * Sam-I-Am looks at his scars
17:46 < Simon4> in all my spare time *cough*
17:46  * joshmoore waits for the tome
17:46 <@nyeates> themactech: the wiki and other parts on the community site
are rife for community members to go and make the community documentation
better. Let me know if I can look into access or removing other roadblocks
17:46 < themactech> My problem is I work on this sporadically, if it was all I did
then info retention would be better
17:46 < Sam-I-Am> spare time is an issue.  spare time while getting paid is
17:46 < Sam-I-Am> themactech: me too
17:47 < themactech> But I might not get to do more ZenDMD scripts for 6
months, and I will forget 50% of what I learned last 2 weeks
17:47 < themactech> I try to document all I do but you miss stuff all the time
17:47 < Jane_Curry> That's why I write papers to document what I have
17:48 < JohnnyNoc> ok
17:48 < Jane_Curry> ... but it does take significant time
17:48 < Sam-I-Am> Jane_Curry: is this all in your spare time?
17:48 < JohnnyNoc> Jane_Curry and thank you for that.  i never finished my
zenpack but your docs were helpful
17:48 < themactech> Also my problem is I am paid to work on this, if I post a
question in the forums and get no answers, and I figure it out by myself, then the
process becomes property of my employer and I can't post it in the forums

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17:48 < themactech> I can only post back stuff that I got active help from the
forums or devs
17:48 < Sam-I-Am> not sure i have that limitation
17:48 < Jane_Curry> As I am an independent contractor, what is "spare
17:49 < Sam-I-Am> Jane_Curry: haha, ok
17:49 <@nyeates> themactech: Can you try to explain to your employer that
you have used the output of others for your employer, why cant they allow you
to give the same back?
17:49 < JohnnyNoc> ok, so are you guys going to create this 3rd party support

17:49 < JohnnyNoc> Simon4, Sam-I-Am, Jane_Curry .... ? 
17:50 < Jane_Curry> Suppose we quit winging and talk about ZenPacks for V3 -
both updates and new ones - like what Nick wanted us to do????

17:50 < Jane_Curry> I have done

17:50 < JohnnyNoc> i would have to sit out of this convo.  i'm still 2.5.2.
17:50 <@nyeates> I didnt have an agenda for this meeting
17:50 < Jane_Curry> .. but you all seem to think it's not big enough!
17:51 < JohnnyNoc> nyeates thanks for your comment on my forum question
regarding the migration question
17:51 < JohnnyNoc> Jane_Curry hire and train some folk!
17:51 <@nyeates> np johnny
17:51 < themactech> The deal with my employer is this.  If i post "How do I get
this working...", and all I get is dead air, and I spend 2 weeks working on it to
figure it out, it does not go back to the forums.  I do not agree with his view, but I
understand it and I am bound by it.  I kinda enjoy having a job, shelter, food...
17:51 < themactech> Sadly, about 80% of the time I have to figure it out by
17:51 < JohnnyNoc> themactech thats kind of a shitty attitude because i'm
pretty confident there were things you did find by the community
17:52 < Jane_Curry> The latest client that I did a reasonable tranch of work for
agreed that the ZenPacks I have written can be made available to the community
17:52 < JohnnyNoc> but i understand it's not yours, but you should try to
convince your employer to allow you to give back to the community who have
undoubtedly helped in some manner

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17:52 < themactech> I try to contribute as much as I can, I answer as many
questions in the forums as I am able to
17:52 < Jane_Curry> provided they have their name in the ZenPack name but
my name as the maintainer
17:52 < Jane_Curry> This is kind-of a win-win, methinks
17:53 < themactech> I spend valuable time on this, but it is my experience that
the heavy stuff I need I get almost no feedback from the forums
17:53 < Sam-I-Am> JohnnyNoc: need funding to start a company
17:53 <@nyeates> understood themactech, best of luck balancing that
17:53 < Jane_Curry> and mebbe you want to do the interesting techie stuff
rather than run a company...
17:53 < themactech> For example, I wanted to craft the zenoss workflow so that
we could get all the info we needed from remote sites all over port 25 via SMTP, I
posted a bunch of questions and got no good answers.  I now have this working, I
can't post it
17:54 < JohnnyNoc> Sam-I-Am funding for what?  to quit your job?
17:54 < themactech> I can tell you that our competitors required VPN access
to sites on some bids to do SNMP monitoring, our ability to do it without any
inbound access to the client's network won it for us in such cases
17:55 <@nyeates> and i didnt mean that in a bad way...i meant, i think that you
are making a decent balance of helping here and retaining for your employer
17:55 < Jane_Curry> Anyone else have a "top-5" list of ZenPacks that they want
converted to V3????
17:55 < Jane_Curry> My first 2 are predictive thresholds and MIB Browser
17:56 <@nyeates> I really want to get time to understand the necessities for 3.x
zenpacks and get something out there...we'll see if i or others get that time
17:57 < Jane_Curry> On new V3 ZenPacks, I am wondering about trying to
expand roles
17:57 <@nyeates> already i have gone about some reorganizing of the developer
resources at place like:
17:57 <@nyeates> if it werent for the community members like jane and
phonegi, our docs ther would be lacking. thanks
17:58 < themactech> I am not happy when I have to hammer stuff all by myself
and then not be able to share, I would much prefer to get valuable input that
saves me time and for the result to be pushed up to the community.  I have very

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little time to work on Zenoss and I am under pressure to supply added feature
17:58 < Sam-I-Am> JohnnyNoc: funding to start a corp?
17:58 < Sam-I-Am> JohnnyNoc: so i can do it full time?
17:58 < Jane_Curry> <nyeates> Disappoitiningly, there have been no comments
to my updated ZenPacks doc
17:58 < themactech> Your updated zenpack doc is my bible
17:59 < Jane_Curry> Don't know if people haven't found it, haven't read it, or
just can't be bothered to comment
17:59 < themactech> I have to figure out how to customize stuff in zenpacks,
and the only thing out there close to a real world template is your documentation
17:59 < JohnnyNoc> Sam-I-Am starting the business can be inexpensive, but
yea, to be able to quit your job and do this 100% i understand
17:59 < Sam-I-Am> JohnnyNoc: that and i'd need more people... i dont know
everything about zenoss
17:59 <@nyeates> Jane, i have seen requests for HPUX suport on 3.x
18:01 < JohnnyNoc> Jane_Curry i'd like to see postgresql zenpack have 3.x
18:02 <@nyeates> i was just about to mention postgres too
18:02 < themactech> There are ways to add value to Zenoss if you can
really customize all of it, which I lack the know-how for right now.  Just an
example, Harris corporation sells their own tool to monitor their video broadcast
appliances, and they charge a fortune for it.  I had their gear in my lab for a week
and ran some SNMP queries to it, all of the functions of the Harris tool could be
replicated in Zenoss Core, and like I said,
18:02 < themactech> charge insane money for their tool
18:03 < JohnnyNoc> CISCO ASA VPN zenpack for 3.x would be cool too but
fortunately for us it looks like most zenpacks we use are supported
18:03 < Jane_Curry> Different topic..... anyone else getting quirky results from
modelers that set Manufacturer / OS Product / Hardware Product ?????
18:03 < JohnnyNoc> Jane_Curry yes
18:04 < JohnnyNoc> let me find an example, but some are reporting Microsoft
OS versions weird
18:04 < Sam-I-Am> the manuf/os/hardware has always been a bit weird imho
18:04 < Jane_Curry> Any devs out there know WHY we get quirky results from
this Manufacturer stuff?????

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18:04 < Sam-I-Am> i really wish it would support reading them from mibs
18:04 < Sam-I-Am> i have lots of mibs which include product info
18:05 <@jgartman> Jane_Curry: What kind of quircky results do you mean?
18:05 <@jgartman> Are you seeing errors, etc
18:05 < Jane_Curry> I sometimes find that a product maps to the Unknown
manufacturer, even though I could run the modeler again and it might get it right
second time
18:05 < JohnnyNoc> for example I see this: Microsoft¬´ Windows Server¬´ 2008
18:05 <@nyeates> i agree, manufacturer and os product and hardware has
always been quirky....stuff doesnt get set right, you change it manually and it
goes back to the wrong thing, sometimes you get nothing at all in there when
you should be, etc
18:06 < Jane_Curry> I had one really hokey example where I removed lines that
were already commented out and that seemed to change the behaviour
18:06 <@nyeates> weve tried to deal with it case by case, and there are so
many edge cases i think
18:06 < Jane_Curry> I have a feeling that it is to do with timing...
18:07 < themactech> Jane, did you look at my code for it?
18:07 < ptmcg> Jane_Curry: The WinModelerPlugins Zenpack logs into the
Windows machine to get that stuff, so the first time you add a Win machine, the
login creds are probably wrong/missing, so you get nothing; then when you add
login creds and remodel, you get the details
18:07 < ptmcg> (just one possible scenario for things not working then later
18:07 < Jane_Curry> <themactech> yup - could we take that one offline?  May
need to be tomorrow now....
18:08 < themactech> Yes, just email me with your feedback
18:08 < JohnnyNoc> and then i've got other devices with: Microsoft Windows
Server 2008, Standard Edition
18:08 < JohnnyNoc> not a big deal really, but it's noticable when creating
reports sometimes
18:08 < Jane_Curry> even when the comms are definitely in place, I get quirky
results - you track the modeler and see that it runs, apparently OK
18:09 < Jane_Curry> I think that it may be to do with when stuff actually gets
committed into the Manufacturer part of the Zope db

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18:09 < ptmcg> There was a bug in this where there were non-ASCII chars in the
string returned by Windows, I think there is a patch for this
18:09 < JohnnyNoc> ptmcg thanks for the info
18:10 < Jane_Curry> but I get different answers sometimes with the same
modeler against the same target
18:10 < themactech> I get that too
18:10 < themactech> I can run the modeler twice and get different results
without altering anything at all in my setup or device
18:13 < Jane_Curry> sorry guys (and any gals - if there are any???) - gotta run -
Many thanks
18:13 < JohnnyNoc> thank you Jane_Curry
18:13 < Sam-I-Am> Jane_Curry: thanks
18:14 < subbu> @Sam-I-Am:As disscussed in the previous day if u r free can u
please help me out in the RPN issue
18:14 < subbu> so that i will send the screen shot now
18:14 <@nyeates> Some comment that was made earlier about acls in any devs know if extended acls on not just objects, but also
functionality, could be done through the existing constructs of zope?
18:15 < JohnnyNoc> could someone explain to me what exactly they'd like to
see?  we don't use them, but i thought the "administered objects
18:15 < Jane_Curry> I think that's what used to work, Nick
18:15 < JohnnyNoc> er, i thought administered objects were used for this
18:16 < JohnnyNoc> i'm wondering exactly what functionality users/
administered objects lacks that leaves people wanting more/better ACLs
18:16 < Jane_Curry> In Zope, there are a whole bunch of permissions that you
can grant / deny which can affect menus you see
18:16 < JohnnyNoc> or am i just missing something?
18:16 < JohnnyNoc> Jane_Curry ah
18:16 <@nyeates> yeah but you cant curently say: "I want this group of users to
not be able to model"
18:17 < Jane_Curry> I want to hide lots of menus from some people
18:17 < JohnnyNoc> hrm ok
18:17 < themactech> That comes even more into play if you mod a device
status page to do interactive stuff with a device

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18:17 < Sam-I-Am> Jane_Curry: my particular acl item is reports
18:17 < Sam-I-Am> i can hide devices, but not reports which use them
18:17 < themactech> for example if a server has IPMI, you could have some
users be able to power cycle it and some other that can't
18:18 < Jane_Curry> sam-i-am - one of mine too
18:19 < JohnnyNoc> so could someone sum up what good the current users/
administered objects setup is good for?
18:19 < JohnnyNoc> or just tell me to rtfm
18:19 <@nyeates> more exs: I want this user to be able to delete devices, but I
dont want this user to have that. And I want this admin to be able to modify acls
levels for other users, but I want a sub-admin to be able to only modify certain
18:20 < Sam-I-Am> JohnnyNoc: those users/groups can see, not see, edit, not
edit etc... those devices, groups of devices, etc
18:20 < Sam-I-Am> JohnnyNoc: at least it works in enterprise
18:20 < JohnnyNoc> Sam-I-Am whaaaat it's broken in core?
18:21 <@nyeates> a lot of MSPs and cloud shops with many customers want
these fine grained acls and im wondering if we can do it with the current tools
zope gives, or if it needs a whole lot more
18:21 < JohnnyNoc> Sam-I-Am makes some more sense, guess i'd have to
actually start using them to really see the differences
18:21 <@jgartman> how fine grained?
18:21 < JohnnyNoc> but it makes a lot more sense now that i read zenoss gives
permissions to roles, not users
18:22 < themactech> You can assign roles to users if you bind to a directory
system correct?
18:22 < Sam-I-Am> JohnnyNoc: not sure to what extent acls work in core... its
mainly an enterprise feature
18:22 <@nyeates> jgartman: good question, right. But arent all functionalities in
python implemented as objects?
18:22 < Sam-I-Am> nyeates: i've pondered poking at zope permissions but uh...
18:22 < Sam-I-Am> i need a devel environment :/
18:23 <@nyeates> like you enact a change on an object, delete it, move it, mod
it....isnt that a url referencable call by python and also maybe by zope? im not

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18:24 <@nyeates> themactech: at least in enterprise, you can
18:24 < joshmoore> me too (for the alerts). Do the devs just use a separate
zenoss instance, or are there any tips for setting up a testing environment with
mocks, etc.?
18:24 <@jgartman> We just use separate zenoss instances.
18:24 < Sam-I-Am> i havent messed with roles in ldap yet
18:24 < Sam-I-Am> but its on my list
18:25 < Sam-I-Am> back to the dev environment problem :/
18:25 < themactech> I have ldap binding working in Core, but since I mostly
bind to Apple OD servers, I can't match groups to roles because Apple uses Posix
and the python-ldap does digest posix well, but I am sure I could do it if I bound
to a Microshaft OD server
18:25 < joshmoore> jgartman: k. is there a preferred way to test that a patch
hasn't made things go sproing?
18:25 < Sam-I-Am> themactech: you'd think python-ldap would support posix
18:25 < Sam-I-Am> its like... rudimentary ldap
18:25 < themactech> So for OS X server I just do user bindings
18:25 < linkslice> nyeates: not sure if my last message went out because my
client died.  I'm curious if the vmware modeler automatically knows when a
vmotion has happened and remodels?
18:25 -!- nyeates changed the topic of #zenoss to: "3.1.0 is current stable
version - Spring time is here!"
18:26 <@jgartman> joshmoore: Aside from applying the patch in a dev
environment and then testing it, I'm not sure what else you may be asking.
18:26 < themactech> Someone has a patch for LDAPUserfolder so it does posix
but I am too dumb to figure out how to apply it
18:26 < Sam-I-Am> osx ldap is... weird
18:26 < joshmoore> jgartman: unit tests, etc.
18:26 < Sam-I-Am> we're using it here too... for now
18:26 < Sam-I-Am> however, if i build a dev env its going to talk to openldap
18:26 < Sam-I-Am> apple seems to be getting out of the server world
18:27 < themactech> I do all my zenoss testing in VirtualBox with bridged NIC
18:27 < Sam-I-Am> nyeates: spring is here? what state do you live in :/
18:27 < Sam-I-Am> themactech: i dont have enough horsepower for what i need
to test

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18:27 <@jgartman> joshmoore: Oh sure, you can run runtests to run the test
suite after a patch
18:27 < JohnnyNoc> looks like he lives in maryland
18:27 < themactech> I am in Maryland, about an hour away from the Zenoss
18:28 < joshmoore> jgartman: /usr/local/zenoss/zenoss/bin/runtests noted.
18:28 < Sam-I-Am> themactech: go bust the door down!
18:28 <@nyeates> its a good topic for the weeks to come
18:28 <@nyeates> heh, i just wrong something...
18:28 <@nyeates> Yeah I am in Columbia, MD now and also work in Annapolis
18:28 <@nyeates> wrong = wrote
18:29 <@nyeates> interesting...what does runtests do? not familiar with it
18:29 < themactech> I even simulate pretty complex server/client workflows in
virtual box, nice to have a real fast laptop with mass RAM
18:30 <@nyeates> btw, i think everyone has surmized - dev meeting is
over....ussually tails on, feel free to stay or leave :-) Thanks all
18:31 < Sam-I-Am> yep
18:33 <@nyeates> Im out people, bye!
18:33 < JohnnyNoc> thanks nyeates
18:48 < JohnnyNoc> anyone have any idea roughly how many users are using
ZEnoss core?
18:52 < rmatte> JohnnyNoc: They broke a million downloads around 6 months
18:53 < rmatte> JohnnyNoc: safe bet that there are around 200,000+ users
18:53 < rmatte> but that's just a guesstimate
20:02 < JohnnyNoc> has the wiki essentially been abandoned in favor of the
21:08 < Gat0rvean> is there a way to make un-apply one of the default
monitoring templates (ethernetCsmacd, ethernetCsmacd_64, etc) from one of
my Device/Network/XXX groups?
21:08 < Gat0rvean> the only way I can see is by removing them completely
which would effect everything in /devices
21:09 < davetoo> Make a local copy and then make it "empty" by deleting the

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21:10 < Gat0rvean> davetoo:  make a local copy in the Device/network/XXX
area and then delete it's contents from there?
21:11 < davetoo> yes, in the new copy you made to that location.
21:11 < Gat0rvean> davetoo: gotcha, thanks
21:14 < davetoo> I need to get my little snmp temp/humidity monitor plugged in
here at home.  Forecast for 84F today.
21:16 < JohnnyNoc> so you could check the temp of your home while at work?

21:16 < JohnnyNoc>
21:17 < davetoo> No, just to have a record of what actually happens here
21:24 < Sam-I-Am> moo.
22:06 < JohnnyNoc> davetoo i guess it would be nice if you were trying to
monitor heating/AC
22:06 < JohnnyNoc> re-hi Sam-I-Am
22:11 < Sam-I-Am> yo?
22:25 < davetoo>
22:36 < Gat0rvean> davetoo:  When I created the copy of the Monitoring
Templates and placed it in my /Device/Network/XXX container, every single other
device now has a debug error "Error reading value for XXX" oid is bad, any ideas?
22:38 < davetoo> Devices in other parts of the device tree?
22:38 < davetoo> You sure you only modified the copy?
22:40 < Gat0rvean> yeah, if I go Advanced->Monitoring Templates->Group By
Device Class, I have the original ones at the bottom, and copy of them all under
Devices->Network->XXX with them blanked out
22:40 < Gat0rvean> and the originals are untouched
22:44 < davetoo> but devices outside of that device class are throwing errors?
22:44 < davetoo> I don't know how to explain that
22:45 < davetoo> unfortunately I have to go away for a while.

22:46 < davetoo> back out the change
--- Log closed Fri Apr 01 00:00:48 2011

Generated by Jive SBS on 2011-07-08-06:00

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