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WEDNESDAY_ 11 NOVEMBER 2009 Powered By Docstoc
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                       WEDNESDAY, 11 NOVEMBER 2009




The House met at 16:12.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe

a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.


                            NOTICES OF MOTION

Ms S P KOPANE: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on

the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

  That the House –

  (1)   debates the need for a coherent food security policy as a

        matter of urgency, considering that scientists predict that

        40% to 50% of undernourished people are expected to be living

        in sub-Saharan Africa by 2080, and the agricultural yields

        may decrease by as much as 50% by 2020.
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Ms H LAMOELA: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the

next sitting day of the House I shall move:

  That the House-

  (1)     debates the impact of wasteful expenditure in various

          government departments and the serious impacts it has on

          service delivery.

                              NELSON MANDELA DAY

                              (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move without


  That the House–

  (1) notes with great appreciation the approval by the United

        Nations of naming 18 July Nelson Mandela International Day;

  (2) further notes that Nelson Mandela Day has already been

        declared an annual community work day for the cultivation of

        ubuntu values and principles that our icon, Nelson Mandela,

        worked for and lived by;
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  (3) believes that Mandela’s dedication to progressive values of

      human and social solidarity without regard to race, class and

      gender will continue to guide us in our efforts to create a

      nonracial, nonsexist, united, democratic and prosperous

      society in which the value of all citizens is measured by our

      common humanity;

  (4) recognises that President Mandela’s commitment to progressive

      values is encapsulated in the words of Lord Khem, an African

      sage, who says “... the Light that is God resides in each and

      every one of us ... ” and further says to us, “Thou art the

      Light that shine upon others ... ”;

  (5) further recognises that our icon, Nelson Mandela, has been the

      light that shines upon others; and

  (6) supports and joins President Jacob Zuma in welcoming the

      recognition by the UN of Nelson Mandela Day and encourages the

      peoples and nations of the world to recognise the power within

      themselves to do something to improve the quality of life of

      others in celebration of Nelson Mandela’s International Day.

Agreed to.

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                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move

without notice:

  That the House–

  (1) notes that today, at the 11th hour on the 11th day of the 11th

      month, marked the 91st anniversary of the signing of the

      Armistice on 11 November 1918, to signal the end of World War


  (2) further notes that at 11:00 on 11 November 1918 the guns of

      the Western Front fell silent after more than four years of

      continuous warfare;

  (3) commemorates not only all those men and women who were killed

      during the war, but all those who have fallen in the many

      tragic and often devastating conflicts that have occurred

      throughout the world since then; and

  (4) honours those who sacrificed themselves in these conflicts by

      wearing artificial poppies in remembrance of their sacrifices.

Agreed to.
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                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move without


  That the House–

 (1) notes with admiration and excitement the news that President

     Jacob Zuma has been chosen as Africa’s finest leader and has

     had the prestigious African President of the Year Award 2009

     bestowed on him on Tuesday, 10 November 2009, at the African

     Consciousness Media Leadership Awards ceremony in


 (2) further notes that the award, founded by the African

     Consciousness Media and the Kenneth Kaunda Foundation,

     recognises achievement and serves to honour African leaders;

 (3) believes that the award is one of the instruments used on our

     continent to promote good governance and to foster economic

     integration and development;

 (4) further believes that this award will help remind African

     leaders of their responsibilities to the people, as true
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     leaders are guided by the needs and the collective wisdom of

     the people, and this award should, therefore, not be about

     status or prestige, but service and sacrifice; and

 (5) congratulates President Zuma for winning the award for his

     outstanding leadership, humility, dedication and commitment to

     serve and listen to the people of South Africa and Africa, and

     his efforts for a better life for all.

Agreed to.


                           AGAINST WOMEN

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move

without notice:

  That the House-

  (1) notes that on 25 November 2009 the international community

      will celebrate the International Day for the Elimination of

      Violence Against Women as adopted at the 54th session of the

      United Nations General Assembly in December 1999;
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  (2) further notes that the origin of the date 25 November goes

      back to 1960, when three Mirabal sisters from the Dominican

      Republic, also known as the Unforgettable Butterflies, were

      violently assassinated for their political activism;

  (3) recognises that violence against women and girls is a problem

      of pandemic proportions and that the legal systems and

      community attitudes add to the trauma violated women and girls

      go through on a daily basis;

  (4) further recognises that this pandemic is not only physical and

      mental violence against women and children, but includes human

      and child trafficking and sexual exploitation;

  (5) acknowledges that, although every effort is being made to

      eliminate violence against women and girls, statistics show

      that more women and children are being violated on a daily

      basis; and

  (6) commits itself to ensure that we will continue our efforts     to

      ensure that violence against women and children is eliminated,

      and that women and children who have been violated are given

      the support they require.

Agreed to.
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                           (Draft Resolution)

Mr A M MPONTSHANE:    Madam Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:

  That the House –

  (1) notes that 14 November marks the celebration of World Diabetes

      Day which is led by the International Diabetes Federation;

  (2) further notes that there are currently approximately

      6,5 million South Africans living with diabetes;

  (3) further notes that diabetes can be managed and people who are

      well informed about the illness are able to adapt their eating

      habits to the demands of diabetes; and

  (4) calls upon all South Africans to observe World Diabetes Day

      and play an active role in promoting healthier lifestyles.

Agreed to.

                          MOTION OF CONDOLENCE

                     (The late Comrade Ronnie Press)
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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move

without notice:

  That the House –

  (1) notes with profound sadness the passing away of Comrade Ronnie

      Press on 28 October 2009, in Bristol, England;

  (2) recalls that Comrade Ronnie joined the Congress of Democrats

      in 1953, played an active role in Cosatu, the ANC, Umkhonto we

      Sizwe and the SACP, and also served as Secretary of the

      Textile Workers’ Industrial Union;

  (3) remembers that comrade Ronnie, alongside Nelson Mandela and

      others, was amongst those comrades charged with high treason

      in the famous 1956 treason trial and after the trial, went

      into exile in the United Kingdom where he continued to assist

      in operations against the apartheid state and was instrumental

      in the development of the Bristol Anti-Apartheid Movement;

  (4) further remembers that Comrade Ronnie was a trained chemical

      engineer and has contributed immensely to the struggle by

      providing much – needed technical expertise and helped to

      smuggle equipment and weapons into South Africa and was

      involved in the movement’s technical committee which created a
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      variety of devices that were used in operations against the

      apartheid state; and

  (5) conveys its condolences to the Press family and friends, the

      ANC, the SACP and Cosatu.

Agreed to.



There was no debate.

The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved:

  That the Report be adopted.

Motion agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted.



There was no debate.
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The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved:

  That the Report be adopted.

Motion agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted.


Mr T A MUFAMADI: Deputy Speaker, hon members and Ministers present

will recall that on 27 October 2009, the Minister of Finance

complied with section 28 of the Public Finance Management Act, which

obligates him and his department to present to the House a multiyear

budget projection. The purpose of this projection is to give

certainty and predictability to the country’s finances and indicate

its sustainability, particularly in terms of revenue and expenditure

patterns and, most importantly, in terms of the macroeconomic

outlook that seeks to locate our country’s place and space in the

world economy.

The relevant committees responsible for finances in this House were

assigned to process the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement and

recommend and report back to this House. On behalf of the Standing

Committee on Finance, allow me to say that it is an honour for us in

the committee to be part of a team from this Parliament, entrusted
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with the task of overseeing the processes and management of our

economy and its finances.

I am therefore pleased and privileged to present the committee’s

report and recommendations, which I will deal with later in my


We need to submit, upfront, that the committee had to perform its

duties within a very short space of time, given the busy schedule of

our parliamentary work. Nonetheless, the committee managed to

receive substantive comments and very useful inputs from businesses,

organised labour and respectable economists affiliated to reputable


In processing its work, the committee reflected on the following

important topics: the state of the economy; the economic policy

outlook; fiscal and monetary policies; spending priorities; and

budget deficits.

The 2009 main Budget, like many budgets over the whole world, was

formulated under very severe economic conditions and in an

environment that could be described as being hostile towards the

poor and emerging economies, through no fault of their own.

It is not my intention to dwell much on the historical deficiencies

of our macroeconomic challenges. However, it must be said that the
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Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement and its recommendations are

being debated under slightly improved economic conditions compared

to six months ago. There are signs of cautious hope of an economic

recovery, which means the country’s national framework response to

the global crisis is beginning to yield positive results. However,

we must warn that it is not yet time to celebrate. The projected

economic growth, that would suggest the roll-overs of yesteryear, is

not yet in sight.

Our work as parliamentarians is clearly defined under these current

economic challenges. We are called upon, through our various

standing and portfolio committees, to monitor vigorously expenditure

patterns in government departments and parastatals, and support

Operation Clean Audit – the courageous effort by the Minister of

Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs to improve service

delivery and accountability at local government level.

In terms of our economic recovery, this can only be realised if

proper and sound economic policies, with better co-ordination

between all spheres of government, are implemented, monitored and

evaluated within the context of a coherent and sustainable plan co-

ordinated from a central point - in this instance, the Presidency.

We have noted that government has provided support to several key

sectors of the economy through development and finance institutions,

while simultaneously enabling economic adjustment. Development
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Finance Institutions, DFIs, have assisted in boosting public sector

infrastructure and investments, without which the much celebrated

2010 Fifa World Cup activities and 2010 legacy projects would have

been impossible.

Before I submit the committee’s recommendation it is critical that

we explain how we see the steps that South Africa is taking to

support its recovery plan through the Medium-Term Budget Policy

Statement proposals in the current global crisis.

Firstly, we need to commend the Minister and his team for protecting

the key priority areas outlined in the state of the nation address.

These are: creation of decent jobs and protection of existing jobs;

investment in public and economic infrastructure; education; a

sustainable rural development strategy; stepping up the fight

against crime and corruption; and prioritising the fight against the

HIV/Aids pandemic.

The Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement also indicates a strong

intention to maintain expansionary fiscal and monetary policies into

the outer years of the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework. One of the

key lessons that corporate South Africa and corporations the world

over should learn from the current economic crisis is that heedless,

selfish, amoral economic interests, particularly in terms of

business practices, leads to bad economic outcomes with unintended

consequences that affects mostly the poor and the working people.
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Financial institutions designed to carry out functions of the bank

should do so within the designed regulatory framework. If they

desire to deliberately avoid and evade regulations, they wreak havoc

on the very same economy and markets that they are supposed to

support and sustain.

Secondly, the creation of subprime lending to the unbankable in

order to support profitability and award huge bonuses to executives

in the banking or financial institutions, is not sustainable.

The third lesson that we should learn from this economic crisis is

that overvalued corporate assets and stock market shares also lead

to distortion of the economy and undermine the same economy that

seeks to be promoted and sustained.

The sad part of everything is that all these mistakes hurt the poor

and working class people the most. As we proceed into the future in

terms of our economic recovery, it will be important that we

deliberately seek state intervention in the economy to reduce and

eliminate inequalities in society and also seek to equalise incomes

between the poor and the rich.

As far as our recommendations are concerned, I would like to focus

mainly on three or more things that the committee has looked at. In

order for Parliament to engage substantially and more intelligently

with the budget before it, there is a need to expedite the setting
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up of a Parliamentary Budget Office in the near future in order to

support the work of the Select Committee on Finance and

Appropriations, especially during the value-for-money oversight and

accountability exercise. It will therefore be ideal for the Director

of the Parliamentary Budget Office to be appointed as soon as

possible. This should be done no later than March next year.


The committee also believes that it is important to provide

sufficient administrative content and research support capacity to

Parliament in order for it to fulfil its legislative obligations and

oversight functions over the work of the executive. It is also

critical that Parliamentary programmes allow time for Parliamentary

committees to engage with the Medium-Term Policy Statement and

Budget matters, otherwise we pay lip service to public


In conclusion, I would like to thank the committee members for their

participation and for their dedication in making sure that the

committee executes its responsibilities. We therefore recommend that

this House consider and accept our recommendations as proposed in

our report. Thank you. [Time expired.]

Mr D T GEORGE: Madam Deputy Speaker, the Medium-Term Budget Policy

Statement confirms what the average South African household already

knows: The job market has declined sharply; disposable income has
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fallen; indebtedness remains high; and government excess has been


There is no doubt that the global financial crisis has hit home and

has had a far worse impact on our fiscal framework than anticipated

only a few months ago. Conditions have deteriorated very quickly.

The steady progress made over the past 15 years to develop a robust

economy capable of withstanding constantly changing globally

integrated markets, has been reversed. The Budget deficit, at 7,6%

of Gross Domestic Product, GDP, or R184 billion, will need to be

financed by the people.

Government plans to expand its debt from a current 29% of GDP to 41%

in 2012-13, mostly sourced on the domestic credit market. This will

impact on the availability and price of credit for other

participants in the economy. This 12 percentage point increase is a

significant expansion in rand terms, given that the GDP is expected

to grow from next year. The room left to manoeuvre is getting

tighter, especially given that assumptions underlining the fiscal

framework may well prove to be optimistic. If our economy does not

grow as expected, we are heading for debt servicing expenditure that

will slow down service delivery even further.

Given the service delivery protests that have erupted recently, it

is clear that the people are growing restless over the absence of

delivery caused by government’s failure and inability to efficiently
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spend the money that is available. Matters will be far worse when

money is not available.

Although the tax revenue shortfall amounts to R70,3 billion, a

further R10,8 billion shortfall arises from sources in the

provinces, social security funds and state-owned enterprises. This

reduces government revenue to 27,3% of GDP. Government expenditure,

however, increased nearly 5 percentage points from last year, to 35%

of GDP. The numbers point to the emergence of a dysfunctional

developmental state. The size of government participation in the

economy is increasing, but government functionality and service

delivery output is not.

The DA supports the counter-cyclical fiscal stance adopted by

government. This does mean that government will be spending more at

a time when its revenue is shrinking and the result will be a

deficit and an increase in borrowing. The crucial issue, however, is

that an increase in government spending during a recession should

benefit the economy in the longer term and yield maximum post-

recession benefits. Increased spending to fund government

inefficiency and luxury lifestyles for the government élite is not

acceptable and defeats the purpose.

The preliminary report by the Government Task Team to Effect Savings

makes bold and welcome statements. We also welcome the Minister’s

firm commitment to not tolerate corruption; act forcibly against
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wastage; insist on value for money; and act against those who feed

selfishly off the state.

Increases in government spending do not demonstrate this commitment.

The R589 million set aside for new government departments and the

appointment of additional Ministers and Deputy Ministers appears to

be little more than a political exercise to appease the various

factions within the government alliance with the perks and

privileges of executive office. Ten thousand RDP houses could have

been built instead. That would have represented a real and tangible

impact on the lives of ordinary South Africans.

The R1 billion recapitalisation of the Land Bank would not be

necessary if government had taken steps to prevent deployed cadres

from infecting the institution with a culture of kleptocracy that is

extremely difficult to eradicate, given that it is widen-spread

across the state-owned enterprises. These entities are funded with

taxpayers’ money intended to improve the lives of the poor. We

expect the Minister to do as he says he will do and ensure that the

parasites who steal the people’s money are identified and


The R12 billion increase in the state payroll – not provided for in

the main Budget – demonstrates that government does not manage its

human capital effectively. There are too many public servants in

unproductive jobs within a bloated bureaucracy, and too few in
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critical service delivery areas. The state payroll is steadily

increasing, without tangible benefits to taxpayers and service

recipients. This is not value for money.

Not long ago in a place not far away, a government forgot that it

exists to serve its people. It adopted unworkable policies that

brought a once-thriving economy to collapse; it violated property

rights; it ignored its Constitution; it spent more than it received;

it used the people’s money to fund luxury lifestyles for some; it

printed money to fund its debts and rendered it currency worthless.

And now, Zimbabwe awaits financial rescue. We must prevent this from

happening to us.

Now that Minister Manuel has vacated his position as Minister of

Finance, the public will no longer have an opportunity to offer

their “Tips for Trevor” in the lead up to the annual Budget. It

therefore seems likely that this would be replaced by “pointers” for

the present Minister. The DA would like to offer the first one to

the Minister: The social contract between government and taxpayers

is already strained because taxpayers must fund inefficient

government spending and luxury lifestyles for some while they

struggle daily to put food in their children’s stomachs and a roof

over their heads. Tax increases will not be necessary if government

spends the people’s money wisely. Thank you. [Applause.]
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Mr N J J VAN R KOORNHOF: Madam Deputy Speaker, we are all aware that

this policy statement by the hon Minister of Finance was made

against the backdrop of a very uncertain economic time, compounded

by a behind-the-scenes ideological debate regarding the direction of

economic policy.

The hon Minister has passed this hurdle looking like the boss we

expect a Finance Minister to be. His consistent approach, in not

diverting from previous policies, has won him Cope’s support.

It was 20 years ago that the world was reborn when the Berlin Wall

collapsed and the face of the world changed forever. The current

debate, fuelled by Cosatu and the SACP on who should be the boss on

economic policy, is ironic. Cosatu must realise that the real

opposition in South Africa’s economy is not us or them, but the

financial markets.

Cosatu must be wary not to overplay their hand with the new

government and need to pick their battles with government with

greater care. Battles should never be personal. Cosatu and the SACP

should stop this debate now, support the Treasury under the guidance

of the hon Minister and get on with the job to address our serious

economic challenges. We do have serious challenges.

Firstly, South Africa will have a hesitant economic recovery. We are

going to lag behind the world’s economic recovery and some downward
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risks remain in our economy. Therefore, our growth forecast should

be conservative.

Secondly, the uncertain effect of rising energy prices over the next

12 months affects inflation forecasts and creates uncertainty. Until

we have sorted out Eskom’s capital requirements, the market will

remain volatile.

Thirdly, the question remains as to whether our fiscal stimulus

package is correct and not too late. So far, this government has

relied extensively on public spending increases and not on any tax

cuts. This programme is too silent on private sector involvement.

A large portion of this expenditure increase is the growing salary

bill, approaching like a swarm of locust throwing a dark cloud over

our economy. Government has acknowledged that the increase in the

salary bill is not sustainable. Let’s now see action to curb it.

Economists have warned that our fiscal deficit increase is one of

the highest. It is comparable to that of the United States. Because

of that, our public debt will increase dramatically, shifting the

burden of this debt to future generations.

Cope would like to see a clear plan, even if it needs to take a

longer view, to ensure that we shall be out of this debt. Only a

conservative and consistent approach by government to cut the salary
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bill and to grow the economy will spare our future generations from


Failure to improve efficiency in government spending will delay our

recovery and prolong further borrowing.

We need specific investments. We need to speed up access to the

internet. Government does not have the fiscal space to create jobs

alone. We need the private sector. We need low inflation targets,

high productivity and competitiveness. We need to ensure that the

small and medium-sized enterprises, SMEs, become the main engine of

job growth by getting the banks to fund them, cut the red tape and

make the internet more affordable. It is vital that we focus on

expenditure programmes that will improve competitiveness.

It will be the hon Minister’s duty to control our soaring debts so

as to avoid serious discomfort for our economy. We wish him all the

best and Cope will support him in these efforts. [Applause.]

Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: Madam Deputy Speaker, the IFP would today

like to present two dissenting views on the Medium-Term Budget

Policy Statement, MTBPS.

First, the IFP cannot associate itself with the Medium-Term Budget

Policy Statement’s total reliance on the economy turning around this
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fourth quarter and thereafter maintaining a high rate of sustained

economic growth for the next three years.

This too optimistic a scenario is pegged on selected positive signs,

on the uncorroborated belief in a sudden increase in consumer

spending and on the assumption that the South African economy will

be raised by the raising of the US economy.

It underplays signs which suggest that the depression will continue

next year, such as the projected decline in construction and the

recessionary effect of the completion of the 2010 Fifa World Cup

infrastructural and commercial preparation.

It is risky to boost consumer confidence with the untested promise

that the hard days are over, rather than with real interest rate

cuts and measures countering the credit crunch. Instead of trying to

serve the national interest by expecting the best while preparing

for the worst, the MTBPS is ignoring the worst while relying on the


Secondly, realising, as one should, that even though the global

depression started as a financial crisis, it has now become an

industrial crisis, the IFP criticises the Medium-Term Budget Policy

Statement’s failure to make the required structural adjustments to

create a new and globally competitive industrial basis and to cut on

chronic government-created industrial problems.
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The depression should have given the impetus to abolish the entire

system of exchange controls – which serves no purpose at this

country’s stage of development; to introduce the flexibility of the

labour market which government has been talking about since 1998;

and to reform the underperforming parastatal sectors.

The MTBPS speaks of necessary relief for our economy, such as the

devaluation of the Rand and cuts in interest rates, but none have

yet been effected in any relevant manner, as if there were time for

it. The MTBPS should bring tax reliefs and a new package of long-

term incentives for the creation of new viable economic sectors,

such as assistance in Research and Development, but it contains none

of them specifically. Thank you.

Mr L W GREYLING: Speaker, in an interview shortly after the hon

Minister delivered his speech, I was told by one journalist that the

worst nightmare for opposition parties would be if the Budget

signalled a shift to the left. He then asked me if my worst

nightmare had come true.

I immediately thought about the fact that, with a projected deficit

of 7,6%, by any account, this is indeed a left budget statement. It

sends a very strong signal that social spending will not be cut

during this recessionary period. It makes financial provision for

the extension of the Child Support Grant to all children under the
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age of 18 and provides an extra R900 million for antiretroviral

treatment for HIV patients.

In addition, it gives our cash-strapped local government sphere an

extra R12,6 billion and ensures that our infrastructure built

programme will act as an economic stimulus during this recessionary


If this is supposed to be my worst nightmare – I thought to myself –

then I would like to state for the record that I believe there is a

very fine line between nightmares and dreams.

The fact is that the terms “left” and “right” do not apply in their

traditional sense anymore. Proof of this lies in the fact that, on

that same day, I heard the economist Brian Kantor – not a leftist by

any means – state that he was against rigid inflation targeting, the

supposed holy cow of the right.

It is clear therefore that we need an economic policy that does not

preserve the status quo of half our people living in poverty, 40%

unemployment and rising inequalities.

The ID supports the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement and the

Minister’s commitment to reign in wasteful expenditure while

expanding provisions to the poor. Perhaps now the hon Minister can

start the difficult task of getting the message across to his
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Cabinet colleagues that it is not the car that maketh the Minister,

but their solidarity with the poor. I thank you.

Mr S Z NTAPANE: Deputy Speaker, hon members, the UDM is concerned

about the effects of the recession on the average South African.

People are struggling to make ends meet. Therefore we condemn

wasteful and extravagant expenditure by government.

The economic situation is dire, as reflected by the shortfall of

billions of Rand in tax revenues, which proves that government

simply cannot afford to waste precious funding. The UDM is concerned

about the growing Budget deficit. It is not healthy to incur such a

long-term debt, which future generations will inevitably inherit.

The UDM is also concerned that the Minister will face an uphill

battle against the left wing of the ruling alliance, which seems to

be launching an all out attack on the idea of a free market. Now

more than ever the UDM believes that a responsible and caring

government should also be a government that allows the

entrepreneurial drive of the man in the street to flourish. Now is

the time to encourage people to create new wealth and prosperity.

The UDM support this Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement. I thank


Adv D A ALBERTS: Adjunkspeaker, Minister Pravin Gordhan se

mediumtermynbegrotingsbeleid getuig van ’n ewewigtige benadering tot
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 28 of 185

ekonomiese beleid en daarmee kan die VF Plus hom geluk wens. Daar

flikker egter ’n paar gevaartekens op die horison.

Indien die Minister wil hê dat die belastingbetaler waarde vir sy

geld moet kry – soos hy onderneem – moet hy nie net korrupsie bekamp

nie, maar die onsinnige besteding op irrelevante items, soos oorsese

reise in alle staatsdepartemente, vasvat.

’n Verdere voorbeeld: Om R200 miljoen vir die SAUK te gee as gevolg

van wanbestuur, is nie waarde vir geld nie.

Daar sal ook indringend gekyk moet word na die sfeer van plaaslike

regering, waar stadsrade miljoene rande spandeer op luukse

partytjies en konferensies terwyl gewone mense nie kos het om te eet


Daarom is dit net billik dat, as daar verwag word van die

belastingbetaler om sy gordel in te trek, die staatsdepartemente dit

ook sal doen.

Verder sal die Minister ook indringend daarna moet kyk om die

belastingbasis uit te brei, aangesien 7 miljoen mense nie aanhoudend

kan betaal vir 50 miljoen mense nie.

Die Minister se vooruitskatting van ’n groeikoers van 3,2% oor drie

jaar is ’n realistiese benadering. Wat wel kommerwekkend is, is dat
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 29 of 185

die leningsbedrag oor drie jaar vanaf 23% van die bruto binnelandse

produk, BBP, na 41% sal groei. Geld wat geleen word moet terugbetaal

word met rente, en dit sal die belastingbetaler wees wat daarvoor

moet opdok. Soos dit is, kan die belastingbetaler nie die huidige

belastinglas hanteer nie, en dit is sonder die beplande Eskom

verhogings. Daarom sal die regering baie meer kreatief moet wees ten

opsigte van die aangaan en terugbetaling van skuld. Indien die

belastingbetaler, insluitend besighede, verder swaar belas word, sal

die skepping van 4,5 miljoen werksgeleenthede oor die volgende vyf

jaar bloot ’n hersenskim kan bly. Ons hoop dit is nie die geval nie.

Ons bid jou wysheid toe, Minister Gordhan. Dankie. (Translation of

Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Adv D A ALBERTS: Deputy Speaker, Minister Pravin Gordhan’s Medium-

Term Budget Policy Statement bears testimony to a balanced approach

to economic policy and with this the FF Plus would like to

congratulate him. However, several danger signals are flashing on

the horizon.

If the Minister wants the taxpayer to get value for his money- as he

is undertaking- he would not only have to combat corruption, but he

will also have to clamp down on the senseless spending on irrelevant

items, such as overseas travelling, in all of the government

11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 30 of 185

Another illustration of this: To give R200 million to the SABC owing

to mismanagement, is not value for money.

There should also be a thorough investigation of the local sphere of

government, where city councils are spending millions of rand on

lavish parties and conferences, while ordinary people do not have

food to eat.

It is, therefore, only fair that, if it is expected of the taxpayer

to tighten his belt, the government departments should also be doing


In addition, the Minister should also have a thorough investigation

with regard to expanding the tax base, in view of the fact that 7

million people cannot continue paying for 50 million people.

The Minister’s forecast of a growth rate of 3,2% is a realistic

approximation. What is alarming, however, is that over three years

the loan amount will increase from 23% of the Gross Domestic

Product, GDP, to 41%. Money that is borrowed has to be paid back

with interests, and it will be the taxpayer who will have to cough

up for this. As it is, the taxpayer is not able to cope with the

current tax burden, and this is without the planned increases by

Eskom. Therefore, Government will have to be a lot more creative

with regard to incurring and the repayment of debt. If the taxpayer,

including business, continues to be heavily taxed, the creation of
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                    PAGE: 31 of 185

4,5 million job opportunities over the next five years will have to

continue to be merely a pipe-dream. We hope that this is not the

case. We pray that you will be bestowed with wisdom, Minister

Gordhan. Thank you.]

Ms Z S DUBAZANA: Deputy Speaker, the executives and hon members,

“Sanibonani.” [Good afternoon.] Internationally, there is a growing

consensus that good governance can promote pro-poor distributive

outcomes and also reduce corruption. Budgets are particularly

powerful instruments in socioeconomic transformation, redirecting

public resources to benefit the poor and other vulnerable groups,

particularly in the provision of public services.

The 52nd ANC conference in Polokwane made it clear that the bulk

infrastructure tender processes did not take care of the emerging

contractors. It also indicated the dying need for the centralisation

planning. The latter has been achieved, much as the DA does not see

the need for R500 million to be spent on the new divisions.

In the apartheid era, budgeting and budget processes were

characterised by secrecy and lack of transparency, with negligible

participation by Parliament or civil society. Thank you to the ANC

who brought back our dignity and respect. This is indicated by the

innovations included, the introduction of the Medium-Term

Expenditure Framework, MTEF, and also the establishment of the
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 32 of 185

Minister’s Committee on Budgets so as to enhance political oversight

and the allocation of resources.

The committees on finance had an opportunity to listen to different

public hearings on the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS.

Some presentations were quite informative, while others were neither

here nor there.

Let me share one of the perceptions that were raised by one of the

presenters. This presenter said, “the patient is in the operation

theatre, and the operation went well, but the patient died.”

The ANC is aware that the country is experiencing an economic

downturn, but that doesn’t mean that the patient is going to die,

rather, the patient is in the recovery room. This means that we are

recovering, but recuperation will depend on the commitment and the

determination from all of us in this Chamber.

The ANC believes that an individual contribution will contribute

towards the survival of the whole, which are our communities. The

ANC’s programme document, called The Freedom Charter, indicated very

well that poverty and inequality must be eradicated. Indeed, the

ANC-led government, within the 15 years, has tried to combat the

problem, but there is still a lot to be done.

Let me share some achievements. The Expanded Public Works Programme,

EPWP, is targeted at creating 1 million job opportunities in 5
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 33 of 185

years, to be implemented across the 4 sectors. If you listen and

compare the network opportunities created in the financial year

2008-09, the total is 568 224, and the cumulative total comes to,

within the 5 years, 1,6 million. Indeed, the ANC does not make a

wish list when it sets up its programmes or its objectives.

The ANC also promised during its 52nd conference in Polokwane that

it would halve poverty between 2004 and 2014. The real annual mean

per capita analysis shows an improvement in the incomes of the

poorest, rising from R783 to R1 141 in 2008.

The ANC has also acknowledged that the gap between the rich and the

poor is increasingly growing. This is a sign that the deep

structural nature of poverty and inequality in South Africa has a

racial underpinning. It seems also that the lowest rate of

improvement that I’m talking about is in the middle-income range.

The ANC-led government has provided appropriate social assistance

support to all eligible beneficiaries. As of March 2009, just over

13 million people received social grants, which takes about 5,5% of

our Gross Domestic Product, GDP. The ANC supports this, much as the

members on my left hand side strongly believe that the ANC shall

create a social welfare state.

In 2007, a community survey estimated that people with disability

constitute 4% of South Africa’s population, and while opportunities
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 34 of 185

have increased, there are still insufficient services and

opportunities for people with disabilities to participate equally in

economic transformation or development. The Constitution envisages a

role for the legislature both in influencing the Budget and

exercising oversight to ensure the effectiveness and the efficiency

of the economy service delivery.

The ANC supports the Medium-Term Policy Statement. God bless you.

[Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms C DUDLEY: Deputy Speaker, the ACDP broadly supports the three-

year plan which has had to factor in a massive shortfall in tax

revenues. We agree that, while borrowing now does seem to be the

right thing to do, it is unsustainable in the long run.

We recognise, however, that fiscal expansion and, in particular,

infrastructure spending have contributed to long-term capacity and

short-term job creation. We welcome the additional R70 billion over

3 years to improve education, health services, the fight against

crime, job creation, social services, infrastructure, etc.

Reducing unemployment and addressing poverty must remain our single

biggest priority. The ACDP shares the Minister’s concerns that the

output and outcomes are lagging given the massive investments we are

making. We support government’s commitment to reducing wastage and

achieving greater savings in departments.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 35 of 185

The ACDP will support the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement which

is presented against the backdrop of shrinking economic growth, a

ballooning Budget deficit, and a mounting pressure on the new

government. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms M N MATLADI: Deputy Speaker, it is ironic that, according to the

speech of the Minister of Finance on the Medium-Term Budget Policy

Statement, 500 000 people have lost jobs while on 3 June 2009, the

President promised that, “between now and December 2009, we plan to

create about 500 000 job opportunities.” Instead people are left

with economic devastation and the human tragedy of job losses.

The Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement for 2009 spells out several

issues of concern; the decline of income tax at R21 billion, VAT at

R31 billion, and Customs and Excise Duties at R9 billion lower than

estimated in February. This leads to the country’s borrowing

requirement of R285 billion against the R89 billion of the previous

financial year.

The procurement system has to be reformed to avoid fraudulent

activities in the departments, including R615 million paid to

employees doing business with departments. The government is losing

billions of Rand on consultants who are not hired temporarily for

specific expertise, but are hired to perform the duties of the

employed officials – which is a double expenditure.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                  PAGE: 36 of 185

Finally, there is a concern with regard to the exorbitant salaries

of municipal managers, their expensive vehicles and their highly-

paid bodyguards. These have to be monitored during these hard times.

I thank you. [Time expired.]

Mr R B BHOOLA: Deputy Speaker, the MF strongly believes that the

deficit will have tremendous implications for and a negative impact

on service delivery. The austerity measures such as saving schemes

and reprioritisation of departmental programmes, non-core versus

core functions, as a way and means of instilling financial

management and discipline are welcome.

The MF feels that the austerity measures are not adequately

addressed in all the areas of government, including the executive,

like going on insignificant international trips, etc. However, the

MF believes that this is a good initiative, but it should start from

the executive level where more funds are spent.

KwaZulu-Natal is heading towards an overdraft of R4 billion as a

result of poor financial planning. This has a detrimental impact on

the money that is budgeted for service delivery. This means that

less money is spent on service delivery and more on the executive,

whereas, in actual fact, it is suppose to be the other way around.

This will assist government if it is serious about transforming the

economy and restructuring the public service and economic recovery.

The MF will support the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                    PAGE: 37 of 185

Mr E M SOGONI: Deputy Speaker and hon Members of Parliament, the

world has experienced the worst financial and economic contraction,

some say since 1930, others would say 1992 or 1993. Although the

medium-term growth is low, South Africa’s good economic choices over

the past decade have allowed it room for the bold response that was

presented in the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, by the

hon Minister of Finance, hon Pravin Gordhan.

The Minister has tabled a series of policy measures that should

contribute towards pushing back the frontiers of poverty. The

Minister of Finance, in his foreword on the MTBPS, quoted the

constitutional vision that enjoins us:

  ... to improve the quality of life of all citizens and free the

  potential of each person as we build a nation based on democratic

  values, social justice and human rights.

This is in line with the ANC’s vision of creating a better life for

all, understanding the challenges of confronting decades of

subjugation, unemployment and the widening gap of inequalities

between the rich and the poor. The Gini coefficient has now moved

beyond 0,5 signalling the worsening inequalities.

In the past few months, an estimated 500 000 jobs have been lost,

adding to the already high unemployment rate. This only serves to

increase the challenges that face South Africa as a developmental
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 38 of 185

state. That is why the ANC at the 52nd National Conference resolved

to capacitate and build a developmental state that today has set

bold policy measures to enable South Africa to respond to the

changed economic environment and construct a more robust platform

for growth as the world economy recovers.

In fact, the International Monetary Fund, IMF, believes that the

world economy is beginning to turn the corner. This MTBPS enjoins

the government to ensure that limited resources are utilised to

produce maximum outputs without compromising the quality of services


An additional Budget of R78 billion over the Medium-Term Expenditure

Framework, MTEF, is certainly most welcome. As the ANC, we

congratulate the Minister for not revising down the Budget

estimates, but boldly keeping them intact and ensuring that the

priorities of the government are advanced to ensure that rural

development, amongst others, is firmly placed on the agenda of

service delivery.

The challenge facing the ones robbed of their land is the absence of

a budget for land restitution and the creation of new farmers.

Obviously, rural development cannot be relegated to one department

as all departments have a role to play, including the Department of

Economic Development, so that those who want to remain in the rural

areas are allowed to do so. Many beneficiaries of land restitution
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 39 of 185

have to wait for years before they can be compensated because of

lack of budget. This is unacceptable.

We invited the Human Sciences Research Council, HSRC, who shared

their warm appreciation for the vision and MTBPS, although they

raised certain reservations. One of the reservations, amongst

others, is funding for health.

The ANC acknowledges the MTBPS for taking into account the

importance of local governments by ensuring that the Municipal

Infrastructure Grant, MIG, grows over the MTEF period. It may not be

enough, but it will go a long way in ensuring that, one day, there

will not be much difference in infrastructure development between

rural and urban areas.

The commitment of this government in creating sustainable and

descent jobs is very clear in the MTBPS, if you look at the

budgetary commitment for infrastructure.

The strategy and tactics document states:

  The central task in the current period is the eradication of the

  socioeconomic legacy of apartheid; and this will remain so for

  many years to come. However, the establishment of a government

  based on the will of the people, progress in the transformation of

  the state, the codification of rights and implementation of
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                    PAGE: 40 of 185

  progressive socioeconomic programmes represent a major change in

  the sociopolitical environment.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank members of the

Standing Committee on Appropriations, across political parties, and

staff for their support in ensuring that the MTBPS report was

produced timeously and adopted unanimously by the committee members.

I also thank my secretary for going the extra mile to ensure that

everything ran smoothly. The ANC support the MTBPS. I thank you.


Mr P J RABIE: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon Ministers and hon Members of

Parliament, South Africa, like a number of other emerging economies,

finds itself in a recession. Our tax revenue declined form R740,4

billion to R657,5 billion, while expenditure decreased from R843,3

billion to R841 billion. Budget deficit increased from an estimated

3,8% to 7,6% of Gross Domestic Product, GDP.

The DA agrees with the hon Minister of Finance that the increase in

the Public Sector Wage Bill, which is higher than the official

inflation rate, may lead to higher inflation pressure. Another

inhibiting factor is the possible escalation in the price of

electricity of 45%, which will adversely affect the entire economy.

In a nutshell, further job losses are inevitable.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                   PAGE: 41 of 185

We compete in a global market where a competitive advantage of

manufactured goods is influenced by the cost of energy. For

instance, it’s estimated that the cost of producing one ounce of

gold will increase by 30% if the price of electricity increases by

45% in three years. At the current gold price production it will no

longer be viable, leading to mine closures and job losses.

The greatest threat to the present South African economy, however,

is unemployment. Estimates of job losses vary from 20% to 40%.

Chronic unemployment has become a fact of life to millions of South

Africans. It was estimated that in June 2004, 4,1 million workers

were without jobs. What we need is an economic policy that makes

South Africa independent from, and not dependent upon social grants.

More than ever before, we need a broad, holistic and strategic

economic policy and leadership, and not irresponsible populist

verbal attacks on our current fiscal and monetary policies. It

appears that the Congress of South African Trade Unions, Cosatu, and

the African National Congress Youth League, ANCYL, are determined to

question the credibility of a senior member of Cabinet whose

portfolio relates to planning, rather than to provide solutions to

alleviate poverty, improve service delivery, curb the breakdown in

law and order, and retain the independence of the judiciary - key

components for sustained future economic growth.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 42 of 185

The DA is in a position to provide a viable alternative economic

policy. We acknowledge that apartheid was wrong. It used race to

discriminate, embitter and drive millions of South Africans apart.

Let us not repeat the mistakes of the past. Let us create an open

society with equal opportunities where choice and merit are used,

and not race quotas and cronyism, to provide an economic environment

with positive growth and employment.

Incessant government intervention inhibits economic growth. The core

function of the government is to co-ordinate and regulate. We need

an effective and efficient public sector, free of corruption, which

endeavours to develop our human capital, not to enrich a small close

- knit élite with political ties to the ruling party. I thank you.


Mr D D VAN ROOYEN: Hon Deputy Speaker, Ministers and Deputy

Ministers, fellow colleagues, central to our developmental agenda as

the ANC, the leading party in government, is the mammoth task of

ensuring that all South Africans are provided with an opportunity to

pursue economic growth, development and redistribution so as to

realise a better life for all.

Our government’s fiscal policy is the axis around which this

developmental mandate orbits. It enables us to deliver on this

mandate by providing resources in a manner that is sustainable and

that complements the much-needed stability of the economy. As the
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 43 of 185

ruling party, our beloved organisation the ANC has, since coming

into power, striven for the realisation of a strategic perspective

of contributing to a stable economy, which we understand to be

crucial for creating an environment in which job creation can

accelerate, entrepreneurial activities can flourish, and companies

and households can invest with confidence.

The current global economic contraction has placed all governments’

revenues under severe pressure at a time when economies require

fiscal support the most, and at a time when liquidity is very

scarce. As a result of our sound countercyclical fiscal policy,

unlike many other countries in the world where budget deficits have

increased, our healthy public finances enabled us to support growth

and spending on infrastructure and social services.

In fact, our fiscal response to the economic recession is regarded

as one of the largest in the world. The fact that our fiscal and

monetary policy cushioned the impact of the budget deficit, which we

are all aware moved from 1% of our GDP in the 2008-09 financial year

to a projected deficit of 7,6% this financial year, is a much-

welcomed reaction and confirms the correctness of the fiscal path we

have opted for as the ruling party. We regard this development as a

positive step forward towards the realisation of our massive

programme to build economic and social infrastructure.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 44 of 185

As the ANC we concur that the current expenditure trend will widen

government borrowing requirements in order for the government to

continue with its noble agenda of bettering the lives of our people.

The fact that we entered the economic downturn with a budget surplus

is a big plus for us as it creates space for us to continue with our

long-term investment plans without having to worry too much about

the recession’s impact on such plans. It is in the same context

that, as the ANC, we support the projected consolidated borrowing

requirement of R285 billion.

The ability of government to finance its expenditure programme in a

sustainable way is a very central principle of any fiscal policy. A

key indicator of sustainability are debt-service costs. Hon Speaker

and respectable House, if these costs are left to rise as a

percentage of GDP over the long term, we will find it difficult to

stick to our expenditure programme. To avoid the possibility of such

an occurrence, we urge the Ministry to ensure that related spending

is driven by real physical investment projects that will assist us

to create jobs that will lead to growth in household expenditure,

that will lead to injections to the tax revenue and that will make a

positive contribution to the much-deserved economic growth.

It is our belief that such an approach will enable us to treat

borrowing as a temporary solution that cannot be allowed to burden

generations and inhibit future growth and service delivery. We agree

that sustaining higher borrowing will lead to our having spiralling
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                  PAGE: 45 of 185

debt costs and eventually to a costly adjustment through lower

spending on service delivery or, the most unfortunate situation, to

increasing tax rates. This might have a very serious adverse effect

on economic stability and growth.

Central to our attempt to curb a budget deficit will be the

oversight capacity of both the National Assembly and the National

Council of Provinces. As cited in the report of the Standing

Committee on Finance, it is our submission as the ANC that, inter

alia, the proposed measures be adhered to. The intended expansion of

public sector capital expenditure is seen as a good enabler for

economic productivity capacity, which will empower the state to

continue providing required services and goods.

The expansion in public infrastructure expenditure is also welcomed

as an initiative that will enhance the government agenda of economic

growth and transformation of the economy in order to create decent

work and sustainable livelihoods. We are convinced as the ANC that

the newly introduced Ministries of the National Planning Commission

and of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation will assist us in

dealing with the problem of integrated implementation of all

earmarked infrastructure programmes.

Indeed, our economic and social development is about our collective

commitment as government, the private sector and civil society to

realising the cited priorities of our government. It will be of the
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                    PAGE: 46 of 185

utmost importance to work together. Working together we can do.

“Eendrag maak mag.” [There is strength in unity.]

Hence, it is necessary for all of us to pay tax. Tax revenue has

emerged as the key contributor to national income. Therefore it is

extremely important for all taxpaying South Africans and companies

to prioritise the payment of tax. In order to cater for current

development needs and narrowing the worrisome budget deficit we

really need to double our efforts and do things differently to boost

tax revenue. We therefore welcome the tireless efforts in the form

of penalties that are to be introduced by our hard-working, South

African Revenue Service, Sars team. As commanded by the holy book,

let’s make sure that we owe no man anything and continue to shower

the downtrodden with our love by abiding by the law by paying tax.

Taking our cue from the high-growth strategy studies conducted on 13

economies, we must use the five established growth reasons to

further harness the economic moment we are currently in. These are:

shifting resources to labour-intensive sectors; having fiscal and

monetary policies that promote balanced, sustainable growth;

increasing competitiveness, raising productivity, lowering costs;

having trade and industrial policies that lower costs and create

jobs; and improving public-sector performance and service delivery.

As the ANC we support the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, the

MTBPS, and remain convinced that it is a budgetary and fiscal
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 47 of 185

declaration of intent that has the full potential of ensuring that

collectively we deliver on our mandate as assigned by the South

African majority. Indeed, this MTBPS is an appropriate foundation

for an economically sound Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF.

Kea leboga, Mmusa-kgotla. [Thank you, Deputy Speaker.] [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Deputy Speaker, hon members, allow me

firstly to thank all of the speakers for their very valuable

contributions and for their support of the Medium-Term Budget Policy

Statement, MTBPS. I must say, we could have saved a lot of time if

they had only said, “we support”, but I understand that this is a

debating chamber, and so we have to debate!

Allow me also to thank the heads of the various committees: Mr

Mufamadi, Mr Sogoni and Mr De Beer from the NCOP for their

contribution towards implementing the new role that Parliament has

and for their thoughtful approach to what we have before us.

Today is actually the day on which we – this executive that sits on

my right – have been in office for six months. You can see that, in

a very short six months, we have had a crisis, we have had a

response to that crisis, and we have had some very insightful

contributions from the ruling party and others on how best to manage

that crisis so that South Africans, whether they be rich or poor,

can actually cope with it much better.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 48 of 185

In essence, I think what we would like to say to South Africa today

as we debate the MTBPS, is that we reiterate the fact that we will

deliver on our priorities as government. These priorities are:

better health care; better education; more work opportunities –

notwithstanding the current loss of jobs; our focus on rural

development; and our determination to eliminate the crime and

corruption that so bedevils South Africa.

We are saying that we will spend the R78 billion allocated over the

next three years in a prudent way and take into account all of the

many factors that have been raised by all the parties that have

spoken here today.

We are also assuring South Africans and this House that the

prudence, which has marked our previous management of finances, will

continue to characterise the way in which we approach our

responsibilities. We want to assure you that South Africa’s fiscus

is in good hands – that being the hands of Cabinet as a whole – and

that we are very mindful of the tough situation we find ourselves

in, and of the responsibilities that we carry.

Notwithstanding the difficulties that we have, we are also mindful

of the fact that we have to take South Africa back on to a growth

path. As the MTBPS said itself, President Zuma is quite determined

that we don’t just go back to the old norm, but that all of us, as

South Africans, contribute to finding a new way of growing our
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 49 of 185

economy to create many more jobs for many generations of South

Africans who have been excluded from this possibility.

We are also committed – and we welcome the commitment of all of the

parties in Parliament – to stopping waste and corruption, getting

value for money, and to ensuring that the 1,5 million civil servants

that work in government will join us in this particular campaign.

Above all, I think we need to send a message to South Africa that we

will look after people who have lost their jobs and help them to

either get retrained or to benefit from the UIF or from other

measures that are available from the state.

We also want to send a message to the poor that their social grants

will not be cut as far as we can help it, certainly not for the

foreseeable future, and in fact we want to protect their income so

that they can continue to have the benefit of state support.

We also want to send a message to our small, medium and large

businesses, and the entrepreneurs who manage them, that they need to

become a lot more innovative and bold – notwithstanding the climate

we find ourselves in – and create jobs which will ensure that South

Africans can have the dignity of a job, rather than just being

dependent on welfare.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                   PAGE: 50 of 185

Let me also then give you some context. There was a G20 meeting over

the weekend in St Andrews. Those of you who are golfers will know

that St Andrews is supposed to be the home of golf. All I could do

was stand at a distance and watch the golf course. I am sure that

there are people in this Chamber who would have enjoyed being on the

green grass.

Arising from that G20 meeting, a set of messages begin to emerge.

The first is that the stimulus has certainly helped the world to

cope with this recession better than what it would have. Our own

efforts at a stimulus package – if you want to call it that – have

helped South Africa as well.

The second message is that there is a recovery on the way, but it is

a very cautious recovery. All of the graphs around the world are

ticking upwards. But that ticking is a very gradual one; it’s a very

small one and no one can say for certain that it will amount to the

“V” that everybody would like to see.

The third message is that there is agreement that the exit strategy

that we all speak of and that some are beginning to venture towards,

is not at our doorstep just yet. There needs to be continuous co-

ordination within the G20 and around the G20 to ensure that we don’t

have the “W” that Mr Rubini and others spoke of.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 51 of 185

It is of particular concern for us in South Africa and other

developing countries if developed countries randomly exit from their

stimulus strategies, as that could actually have a devastating

effect on developing countries.

The fourth message is that there is a discussion going on now in the

G20 and in other quarters which says that we need a new growth path,

not just for South Africa but, indeed, for the world as a whole.

There needs to be greater inclusivity, more balance in a multiple

sense and the necessity to look for new what I call sources of


We also talked about climate financing, but only to decide not to

talk about it too much. There is still a huge debate going on about

who bears responsibility for the climate challenges that we face,

who should support the developing countries and how, in respect of

both adaptation financing and mitigation financing, this support

should be rendered.

Finally, there was a lot of discussion around regulation of the

global financial system, around bonuses and some of the issues that

hon members have actually raised here.

More specifically, I think we need to agree with members that we

need to be cautious; we need to stabilise our economy; we need to

ensure that we lay a new basis for the way in which South Africa
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 52 of 185

grows. But laying that new basis is not going to come from one side

of the House or from one social partner; it has to come from all of

us, and that is what I hope this House will begin to focus its mind

on and ensure that we get the debate that we require.

The new growth path that we speak of provides an opportunity for all

sides of the House to co-create this new growth path. We have

several parties who have said, “we have ideas”. Well, let us try to

create a forum where those ideas can be shared and let us tap into

the creativity of all South Africans so that all of us can actually


We all agree with Mr Koornhof and others that our economy needs to

be more competitive and that our small and medium-sized enterprises,

SMEs, need to be supported more. We also agree with Mr Oriani-

Ambrosini that we actually need a balance between spending, saving

and debt management at the household. But there is no one answer to

all of these things. There is a new balance that is required. There

are times when we need to spend more and there are times when we

need to save more. As the Christmas season comes up, that’s the

balance that we actually require.

We agree with Mr Rabie that the 45% electricity tariff increase is

not the ideal for South Africa. The assurance that we, as Treasury

and other departments, can give is that there is a collective in

government that is working very hard under Ministers Hogan and
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 53 of 185

Peters to ensure that we minimise the impact and tariff increase

itself. We can also assure you that that work will actually carry


Let me assure you that the deficit is going to be managed. Debt is

going to be managed very carefully. While we are also concerned

about imposing upon future generations, these are, unfortunately,

necessary things that we have to do to make sure that government can

meet its commitments and the expectations of our people as well.

I want to agree with those colleagues who talked about service

delivery and the need for improvement. The ruling party does not

tolerate nepotism. It will not tolerate cronyism and wants to fight

corruption as eagerly as anybody else.

I think what we need to focus on is, not who is better than the

other, but rather on generating a collective commitment in this

House, signed by all 400 members, in which we undertake to do

everything each of us can do – regardless of the political party –

to create a new culture in this country. That’s what we need. Not

competition about who has the better idea. [Applause.]

So, let me throw out an offer to all of us: let us find a way – and

perhaps the whips of the parties need to meet to discuss this – to

create the basis for a collective agreement on how we could fight

corruption in this country in all its manifestations. Remember – and
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 54 of 185

I repeat this – it is not just public servants who are corrupt;

corruption comes from all forms and sides of our economy. It

requires a total cultural change in terms of the way we approach

business in South Africa and particularly, business with government.

So, let me invite all political parties to join us in this campaign.


We also don’t want a bloated bureaucracy that does not deliver and

that is low in its productivity. Let us also, together with Minister

Baloyi, share ideas about how we move from where we are. We want

more people to be employed in the frontline of service delivery, as

teachers, as nurses, as doctors and as people delivering services

rather than sitting behind desks. I’m sure he is going to come back

to Parliament and give us more feedback in terms of what we are

going to do concretely.

Finally, I want to agree that we urgently need to help Parliament

set up the Parliamentary Budget Office. The budget allocations have

been made to Parliament to enable this to happen. We would like to

play whatever supportive role we can play, because this is the only

way in which Parliament can hold not only the executive, but also

various departments, to account and understand what is involved in

budgets and ask people the right kinds of questions.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                     PAGE: 55 of 185

Oversight by Parliament takes another step through this current

process with the Money Bills Amendment legislation allowing

Parliament, through the appropriation committee – as we will discuss

in a moment – to look into whether and what kind of role Parliament

can play in amending budget allocations.

So, Parliament has an important responsibility. We welcome that

responsibility and, over the next few years, we hope to work with

you to ensure that there is greater accountability.

Once again, my thanks to all of the people who have contributed to

the MTBPS and the debate on it. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.


                       (First Reading debate)

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I would like to raise a point, hon members,

while hon Sogoni is making his way here. The level of noise is

unbearable. Please, I am not saying that you shouldn’t talk, but we

must be able to hear the speaker.

Mr E M SOGONI: Deputy Speaker, colleagues, again the tabling of the

Adjustments Appropriation Bill affords Parliament and the people of
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 56 of 185

South Africa the opportunity to reflect and build on the progress

that has been made to change the lives of ordinary people,

specifically the poorest of the poor. The Bill is tabled in the

context of a devastating recession that led to a declining budget,

when a number of firms had to close shop and thousands of workers

lost their jobs.

The economic situation has resulted in the slowing down of economic

growth and obviously reduced fiscal space. However, we take solace

from the fact that the ANC-led government voluntarily maintained

sound financial management and prudent fiscal financial choices that

should caution us against the worst effects of the recession.

The national Adjustment Budget is tabled in line with section 12 of

the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act, Act 9

of 2009, and section 13 of the Public Finance Management Act, Act 1

of 1999. The Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act

enjoins the Minister to present the Medium-Term Budget Policy

Statement, MTBPS, and the Adjustment Appropriation Bill to a joint

sitting of the finance committees of Parliament, which was done. I

will not go into the rest of the procedures of the Act. It is safe

to say that the committees held hearings with a few departments.

The first department to be worked with... in fact, I will just go

through a few departments. My colleagues will cover the other

departments. The Department of Public Works received, amongst
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 57 of 185

others, R353 million, intended for the implementation of the

devolution of the Local Government: Municipal Property Rates Act.

The monies will be passed on to the provinces which will, in turn,

allocate it to municipalities to evaluate all properties in their

jurisdiction, so that they can finally charge levies or give

exemption for certain properties that do not qualify. Members need

to support this process in their constituencies, because communities

resist, because they receive notices that do not explain the purpose

of those notices.

The first challenge the department faces is the roll-out of the Re

Kgabisa Tshwane project, which is supposed to be extended to other

cities. The roll-over requested has been accepted by the committee,

but the department needs to spend this money, as this roll-over is

being approved for the second time. We propose that the Portfolio

Committee on Public Works engages the department on their clear

plans of spending these funds. Their second challenge is to address

the capacity challenges in the department, to deliver on the

expectations of their client departments, as their client

departments seriously underspend in capital projects. We discovered

that there are no service level agreements between the departments.

Many departments underspend on capital expenditure, because the

department lacks the necessary capacity.

The other department that was visited was the Department for

Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs, which has also been
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 58 of 185

allocated over R500 million to assist with provisional free basic

services for the poor households. Despite major achievements since

1994, many communities and households still remain trapped in

poverty. This should go a long way towards achieving a better life

for all.

The department also applied, that is the Department for Cooperative

Governance and Traditional Affairs, for a roll-over of R287 million

of the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, MIG. We were informed that 33

municipalities underspent. However, the department wants to

reallocate this money to 50 other municipalities that have capacity

to spend. This is in contradiction with the Public Finance

Management Act, Act 1 of 1999. Section 43(4)(a) of that Act says it

“does not authorise the utilisation of a saving in (a) an amount

specifically and exclusively appropriated for a purpose mentioned

under a main vote”. Clause 6.1.4(a) of the Treasury Regulations on

roll-overs states that unspent funds on payments for capital assets

may only be rolled over to finalise projects or assets acquisitions

still in progress.

So, the objective of the MIG is to address backlogs with regard to

infrastructure. In fact, we were informed by the official of the

department that they want to redirect this money, as indicated, to

these 50 municipalities. But the objective of MIG is to address

backlogs with regard to infrastructure. Now, if you take this money

away, it means that the poor communities of those municipalities
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                    PAGE: 59 of 185

will remain deprived of the necessary infrastructure development. In

many cases, those officials do not understand the situation in

different municipalities. At the end of the year, people get bonuses

for not having delivered. Section 154(1) of the Constitution states

– no, I am just... it is all parties – and I quote, “The national

and provincial governments, by legislative and other measures, must

support and strengthen the capacity of municipalities to manage

their own affairs, to exercise their powers and to perform their

functions”. Section 34(1) of the Local Government: Municipal Finance

Management Act, Act 56 of 2003, states that, “the national and

provincial governments must by agreement assist municipalities for

efficient, effective and transparent financial management”. So, the

Department for Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs must

co-ordinate provincial and local departments and Treasury, to

establish support committees for municipalities. The 50 well-

spending municipalities should actually be assisted to access the

Extended Public Works Programme incentive scheme.

We also met with the Department of Rural Development and Land

Reform, which informed us that they are unable to accelerate land

restitution, as they have run out of funds. At the end of the second

quarter, they were at 91%. I think the Minister indicated that in

the House one day. Treasury has not made any adjustments towards

land restitution. It is difficult to understand why. The biggest

challenge of this department is the price they have to pay for land,

which is three times the market value. So, clearly, the willing
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                   PAGE: 60 of 185

buyer and willing seller approach does not work. In fact, the

department refers to this willing buyer and willing seller approach

as a willing buyer and unwilling seller approach. So, the

alternative for government is the legal expropriation route. The

ANC’s Polokwane resolution says, amongst others, “where necessary,

expropriate property in the public interest or for public purpose in

accordance with the Constitution to achieve equity, redress, social

justice and sustainable development. All legislation pertaining to

expropriation must be aligned with the Constitution”. So, we are not

talking about wholesale expropriation. We are talking about

expropriation in line with the Constitution. [Interjections.] Yes!


Also, the request by the Department of Home Affairs for a roll-over

of R150 million, to acquire the advanced passenger processing

system, and also the “Who am I Online” project, should be granted,

as these programmes are necessary for both the 2010 Fifa Soccer

World Cup and the smartcard identity documents. However, the

Department of Home Affairs need to move fast in resolving the tender

issues associated with these projects. During the hearings of the

first quarterly reports, the department indicated to the committee

that they would like to take over the responsibility of this tender

from the State Information Technology Agency, Sita. The committee

agreed with that. The process needs to be fast-tracked as the 2010

Fifa Soccer World Cup is just around the corner.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 61 of 185

I would like to take this opportunity to again thank the members of

the committee and the staff, for the long hours they spent in

compiling their reports. So, the African National Congress supports

the Adjustments Appropriation Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M SWART: Deputy Speaker, the worldwide recession affected South

Africa much more than we expected. Economic recovery will be slow

and uneven, and the recession has resulted in job losses, business

closures, reduced consumer spending and, therefore, much reduced

income for the state. The expected revenue shortfall of some R70

billion plus will have a serious impact on the spending ability of

government and discipline is required in this regard.

I would like to ask the hon Dubazana to listen to this, and when

looking at the appropriations, one finds considerable spending by

government on social security, which the DA welcomes, hon Dubazana.

It remains a matter of concern, however, that provision is made once

more to bail out poor performing and poorly managed state-owned

enterprises such as the SABC and the Land Bank. How long will

government persist in using taxpayers’ money to hide poor

management, ascribable mainly to affirmative action and cadre


Considering the expected shortfall in revenue, the Minister had to

do a fine balancing act when compiling the appropriations. Thought

had to be given to ways of financing the shortfall. The decision to
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 62 of 185

initially do so by way of loans is acceptable, but it will be

necessary to bring expenditure into line with revenue as soon as

possible. The main options open to the Minister are to either cut

spending or raise taxes or both. If government manages taxpayer

money wisely, however, tax increases can be avoided. Major financial

losses occur by way of corruption, as presented to us by the Public

Service Commission.

In this regard, they said that 868 cases of financial misconduct by

public servants were reported to them in the 2007-08 financial year.

The total cost reported emanates from unauthorised, irregular,

fruitless and wasteful expenditure, as well as losses resulting from

criminal conduct amounting to R21,77 million in that year. Employees

were found guilty in 709 of the 868 finalised cases of financial

misconduct. However, only 163, which is 22,75%, of the employees

found guilty were dismissed and an amount of just R8,8 million could

be recouped. Criminal proceedings were instituted against only 210

of the employees found guilty.

During that same financial year, 249 senior managers in the Public

Service failed to submit financial disclosures to the Public Service

Commission. This leads one to believe that they might have something

to hide and that we may have seen only the tip of the corruption

iceberg in the Public Service. The Auditor-General’s finding then

is, therefore, not surprising, that as many as 2 300 public servants

benefited from contracts valued at R615 million. Mr Minister, we
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 63 of 185

know that you, personally, are serious about rooting out corruption.

You have stressed that, as Members of Parliament, we should all

assist in the fight against and disclosing of any form of

corruption, irrespective of political affiliation. We agree with you

on this, Mr Minister, and we will disclose corruption wherever


You have also asked, just now, that corruption be depoliticised.

Once again, we agree with the principle, as corruption affects

everybody, especially the poor. Corruption, after all, is stealing

money from those who need it most. As parliamentarians, however, it

is difficult to claim the moral high ground, when we sit here with

colleagues guilty of corruption in Travelgate and in all likelihood

many other shady deals. [Interjections.] It becomes even more

difficult when we learn of taxpayers’ money being wasted on the

protection of political officials outside of government, such as

Julius Malema. [Interjections.]

Little or no action has been taken on these issues, other than

protecting comrades in the ANC. The question then is whether we, as

parliamentarians, are setting the right example. The answer is

clearly no. Politics will, therefore, unfortunately remain the name

of the game until such time as we have cleaned up our own act right

here in Parliament. I thank you. [Applause.]
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 64 of 185

Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Deputy Speaker, let me just say, on behalf of

Cope, that we will take up the challenge, together with the

Minister, to fight corruption. We won’t be found wanting. We will

join that campaign to fight corruption. Whenever corruption is

unveiled, it is me talking. Whenever we see and unravel that, we

believe that the Ministers will take action on it. So, we take that

call very seriously, and we will bring it to your attention.

Deputy Speaker, dealing with the Appropriation Budget is basically

to deal with the Budget and also address departments on unforeseen

expenditure which departments have to budget for and the shifting of

programmes. But what we have seen in this Adjustments Appropriation

Bill is basically a new trend, on a scale that has not been seen

before, of departments using the words “unforeseen expenditure” and

“unavoidable expenditure” when talking about huge amounts of money.

This, actually, isn’t necessarily due to “unforeseen expenditure”,

but bad planning.

The second thing that we are worried about is a trend that we have

seen in this department of a shift towards and building up of top-

heavy Ministries. We wonder whether this is not the necessary

management of political divergence and the management of various

political interests in the party. Actually, we are worried about the

bloating and top-heavy structures. We are worried about the fact

that some of these shifts are creating top-heavy structures - the

shift of money from functions.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 65 of 185

The last thing that we want to say, Minister, is that it is not

everything about the shift and the creation of the new departments

or the unbundling thereof is wrong. For example, one can look at

education. It is good that in education the issue of post-school

skills is going to be transferred. The 23 Sector Education and

Training Authorities, Setas, are going to be transferred from the

Department of Labour to the Department of Higher Education and

Training. That’s good. We need to support that, because it is about

addressing the challenges that we have.

Then, the period ahead of us is going to be bumpy, because we are

going to make sure that there is accountability. In heeding the call

of the Minister, there will be oversight to ensure that the

department actually sticks to its plans, sticks to its programmes

and that Ministers be held accountable, by appearing before the

committees when they are called and not hide behind the Public

Finance Management Act. The Public Finance Management Act afforded

us the presence of department officials or accounting officers, not

Ministers. Accountability means you appear; you take political

responsibility, because the buck stops with the Minister.

Therefore, as Cope, we want to say we are going to stand up and rise

to those particular challenges, Minister. We want to come to your

committee. I am sure you are going to listen to that. Thank you.

11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 66 of 185

Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: Madam Deputy Speaker, the IFP carries in

the Adjustments Appropriation Bill its misgivings about the Medium-

Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, as this Bill reflects the

Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement’s missed opportunities and lack

of urgency.

The Bill should have been the tool to begin bringing about the

required structural adjustments which we feel are necessary. This

would have been the time to begin merging the many senior government

institutions, providing essentially the same services to Small,

Medium and Micro Enterprises, SMMEs, thereby avoiding committing

R1,7 billion in the future for the Khula Direct when, effectively,

the National Empowerment Fund can provide the same services, and all

their agencies can be assembled in a matter of weeks or, perhaps,

months, as commercial entities do when merged into a single entity.

This would be the time to shut down the commercially nonviable aero-

manufacturing division of Denel, to avoid recapitalising something

that continues to lose money. It would be the time to privatise

South African Airways, SAA, SAA entities and older State-Owned

Enterprises, SOEs, as an alternative to rising public debt, wherever

it is possible.

It would be the time to transform the Land Bank into a specialised

division of the Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, rather than

recapitalising it with R1 billion, to perpetrate its 20 year
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                   PAGE: 67 of 185

management crises and corruption track record. It is really a

matter, at this point, of putting good money after bad money, rather

than providing it with the management it needs.

This would be the time to relook government-assisted economical

sectors, which are not viable in the global market place, rather

than increasing their subsidies, and focus it, as it had to be, on

social services. Since 1994, South Africa has not undertaken a

structural transformation of its parastatals and of government’s

industrial policies, with the end result that the pre-1994 mould is

being kept alive, in fear that anything replacing it may be worse.

More suggestions, as the Minister asked, will be coming by letters.

Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms B T NGCOBO: Deputy Speaker and members, the Medium-Term Budget

Policy Statement, MTBPS, which we are debating here today is a

statement of courage and hope in the most turbulent time in recent

economic history. We must look beyond this crisis and encourage the

expansion of public services, especially in the areas of education

and health. It is in this spirit that we welcome the MTBPS within

the current difficulties we face.

In this regard, the ANC has set up a programme to improve education

by: progressively expanding the nutrition programme to include high

school learners in poorer communities; improving the national norms

and standards in teaching and learning including providing learner-
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 68 of 185

support material and adequate education infrastructure; reviewing

our curriculum to best suit the needs of the developmental state;

reviewing Adult Basic Education and Training to ensure that it

better responds to the skills demands of the country; establishing a

National Education Evaluation and Development Unit for purposes of

monitoring, evaluation and support; expanding the number of no-fee

schools and progressively introducing free education for the poor up

to undergraduate level; improving the conditions of service of

teachers; fast-tracking early childhood development to ensure

universal access to Grade R by 2010 and doubling the number of

facilities available for 0 to 4-year-old children by 2014; and to

enhance the quality of education and skills development focusing on

improving the foundation phase literacy and numeracy and on

increasing the number of learners that pass Grade 12, particularly

in mathematics and science.

We welcome the additional adjustment of R524 million allocated for

workloads on literacy and numeracy for Grade 1 to 6 in Quintile 1-3

schools, and the total adjustment of R561,6 million. An adjustment

of R12 billion for salaries to provinces has been given, however,

this is not specifically for education.

One of the critical areas of spending that will require more

resources over the medium-term is our health care system. We

therefore welcome the department’s ten-point plan and hope that this

will lay the foundation for the universal access to free quality
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                    PAGE: 69 of 185

health care supported by the National Health System, and

revitalisation of hospitals.

We recommend that our spending on health care over the medium-term

must focus on developing a reliable single health information

system; intervention to reduce the high cost of health provision;

developing recruitment and human resource development strategy for

health professionals and preventing the exodus of health

professionals to other countries; accelerating the roll-out of the

comprehensive health care programme, such as provision of

antiretroviral treatment which will be dispensed at all health

facilities; and accelerating the programme for hospital

recapitalisation and revitalisation including innovative solutions

that will accommodate private public partnership.

The adjusted estimates reflect that the total increase for the

department amounts to R1,3 billion, which includes 17% roll-over

funds from 2008-09.

One of the biggest challenges facing our health care system and

which poses a significant threat to our future is HIV and Aids. The

current death rate from HIV and Aids-related deaths is becoming

higher than that of the birth rate. We must urgently address this

matter with a focus on prevention and treatment.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 70 of 185

Adjusted estimates include R900 million for antiretroviral treatment

and Comprehensive HIV and Aids Care Management and Treatment; R160

million for H1N1 influenza; R20 million for countrywide measles and

polio mass immunisation campaign; R30 million for 2010 Fifa Soccer

World Cup Health preparation strategy grant; general salary

adjustments for the national Department of Health is R11 million;

and for the public entities National Health Laboratory Service and

Medical Research Council, R7,3 and R5,8 million respectively.

We support the adjusted appropriation of R18 billion for health

care. We welcome the MTBPS and wish to congratulate the Minister of

Finance on achieving his tasks under these difficult conditions. We

further welcome the reallocation of resources towards our five key

priorities and look forward to a government that spends more

effectively without cutting back on service delivery. The ANC

supports the MTBPS. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms M N MATLADI: Chairperson, the UCDP accepts the adjustments made

in the Adjustments Appropriation Bill. We, however, would like to

highlight the following: Very few departments do get a clean bill on

audit opinion, which means that most of the units in financial

managements are still wanting. I could give an example of the

Department of Science and Technology, which has received a clean

audit opinion for the previous financial year. Well done! However,

eleven departments still received a qualified audit opinion.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 71 of 185

Of serious concern is the Department of Defence, which received a

qualified audit opinion for seven consecutive years followed by the

Department of Labour, which has four years of qualified audit

opinion and the Department of Public Works had an irregular

expenditure of R5,4 billion.

Underspending by departments is another concern which has resulted

into roll-overs of R1,5 billion for infrastructure and building

projects, and it spells out that work has not been done.

There are major strides taken to improve the Department of Home

Affairs which still has to pay attention to the following: Its

revenue collections - about R356 million revenue couldn’t be

supported by documents in this department; there was an irregular

expenditure of R198,2 million; and corruption is still the main

challenge in the Department of Home Affairs. With these remarks, we

support the Adjustments Appropriation Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

Dr P J RABIE: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon Members of

Parliament, the brief of the appropriations committee is that of

parliamentary oversight. Allow me to mention that the committee had

a number of public hearings with all government departments, the

Human Science Research Council, the Financial and Fiscal Commission

and a number of independent economists.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 72 of 185

Before I discuss appropriations within a number of departments,

allow me to mention the following - and it has been mentioned before

- the tax revenue has declined and what we need is a leaner and more

efficient Public Service. The downturn in the economy has adversely

affected millions of South Africans and is estimated that by 2009-10

9,7 million, almost 10 million, South Africans, will depend upon

social grants.

I agree with the hon Minister of Finance that our present social

welfare system places a heavy burden upon a relatively narrow tax

base. Hon members, be assured that the DA is very much in favour of

our present welfare system. The question, however, is, will we be

able to afford this in future? I think, therefore, that it is

extremely important that we encourage sustained future economic

growth if we want to alleviate the plight of the poor. What we need

is a holistic growth strategy which will represent the public and

the private sectors, and will have to take proactive decisions to

address irregularities regarding corruption, fraud, factors which

inhibit service delivery and growth. This came to the fore during

the public hearings.

In an excellent submission to the Portfolio Committee on

Appropriations, the Human Science Research Council reported that 50%

of all households in rural areas experience hunger on a daily basis

and that 50% to 80% could not afford minimum nutrition prices. It

was also reported that rural households spend 9% to 15% more than
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 73 of 185

urban ones for the same basket of food. What was extremely worrying

is that 51% of all severely hungry rural households qualified for

grants, but they did not receive them according to Human Science

Research Councils. The DA concurs with the committee that rural

development, household food production and food security need

serious re-examination seen in the light of the steep rise in the

price of basic food.

I represent a rural constituency. Rural economic development must

become a key priority over the next three years. To illustrate the

plight of the rural areas, the Human Science Research Council

submitted that of the 18 Land Redistribution for Agricultural

Development projects, only two are still in place. All the others

have collapsed. Now, the question is why? Somebody must account for

that. I think it is of utmost importance that we address this.

Forty per cent of all South Africans live in rural areas, but less

than 10% are economically active. This untenable state of affairs

cannot be allowed to continue.

Education and higher education will have to address the fact that

more than 50% of the youth leaving school today are unemployed. The

Human Science Research Council suggested in this regard that we must

discuss the possibility of a youth transitional job scheme and

rethink the present school curriculum.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 74 of 185

A number of issues regarding the Department of Health are the

alarming exodus of doctors, dentists, nurses, pharmacists and

emergency personnel. It’s always also mentioned to us that the

campaign against HIV is important and it is expected that more than

900 000 people will receive antiretroviral treatment by the year


It is also indicated that for the past eight years there has been an

underfunding of the public health sector, which has led to

deterioration in the Public Health Service. The proposed new health

insurance will have to be properly costed in the forthcoming

financial year ... [Time expired.] Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr J P GELDERBLOM: Chairperson, hon Ministers and members of the

House, we are indeed living in exciting times with a lot of change

and renewal taking place, also in our government and society at

large. I share the sentiments of all who are grateful for the hard

work that went into the preparation of the Adjustments Appropriation

Bill. This was done in a difficult time where we have to cut, save

and shave in order to tighten our belts.

Many of the so-called adjustments we saw in the Bill - I will

mention but three - provided for the shifting of money to the new

departments to continue uninterruptedly with their functions. This

was, in particular, the case for the Department of Agriculture,

Forestry and Fisheries that replaced the old Department of
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 75 of 185

Agriculture, which will cease to exist due to the reorganisation,

and a total of almost R2,8 billion had to be shifted from Vote 23 to

Vote 35. A further R487,6 million is shifted to this new department

from the old Department of Water Affairs and Forestry for the same

reason as the funding follows the function.

The new Department of Water and Environmental Affairs under Vote 43

get R7,4 million from the old department’s Vote 34. For the same

reason, due to function shift, R2,3 million shifted from the

Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs - the

old Provincial and Local Government department - to the new

Department of Rural Development and Land Reform. The whole of the

former Department of Land Affairs is part of the dowry of its


We welcome the changeover to the new model where essential services

are clumped together under agriculture, where water had to shed

forestry to agriculture, and land took over the new function. Most

will continue their tasks without problems.

Under the strains of the current economic climate, we, together with

our officials, have to work smarter with the money allocated in

order to derive the maximum benefit for our people.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 76 of 185

As Parliament and the relevant committees, we will have to keep an

eye on developments and make sure targets are adhered to when we get

to the quarterly reports.

On the roll-overs, an amount of R227 million for the construction of

the De Hoop Dam was necessary. This is to be welcomed as water is

such a precious commodity and we have to provide for future use

under increasingly challenging conditions.

Water and the availability of high quality drinking water stay a

priority and we should not run into any problems in future.

Therefore, it is prudent for us to invest now in water

infrastructure, not only to stimulate economic development, but to

also supply those that still do not have sufficient clean running

water and to prevent our country from running into any tight

corners. We all know of the changes our climate undergoes. We also

know how much we are dependent on this precious resource to sustain

life and future growth. There are also vast sums of money rolled

over to keep the agricultural sector healthy. This is vital for food

security and sustainability.

A major point of focus for the future of our country is rural

development. Agriculture and water will play a very important role

in this. We are happy as the ANC that vast amounts of money had been

contributed to the reform of agriculture. Let me remind this House
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 77 of 185

that in the state of the nation address, the hon President Zuma


  People in the rural areas also have a right to electricity and

  water, flush toilets, roads, entertainment and sport centres as

  well as better shopping centres like those in the cities. They,

  too, have a right to be helped in farming so that they can grow

  vegetables and other things; and raise livestock so that they can

  feed themselves.

We have developed strategic thinking around rural development, but

we also have to consider many practical directions and new thinking

of how we will take on this challenge against the complex background

of land reform and transformation. It has to address the injustices

of the past, foster reconciliation and stability, stimulate economic

growth and alleviate poverty by improving household welfare.

We need all South Africans to revise their approach to rural reform.

We need innovative thinking as to how we go about acquiring land,

settling people with a view to succeed and be sustainable, but most

important, it is vital to do it in such a way that we arrive at

harmonious and sustainable solutions.

We do not need people who employ resistance tactics, but progressive

ways of solving problems. In this regard there is enough expertise

available to assist in negotiations and concluding the many
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 78 of 185

outstanding matters. We have to work together to improve our output

in this regard. This is where we should employ the innovative

thinking I mentioned earlier.

From our side of the House, that is now the ANC side, we will stay

on course to the goals set out in our founding documents that also

followed its historic course through Polokwane into a modern and

exciting state, gearing for the future that we all long for. A joint

future that brings hope and a better life for all who live in South

Africa. As South Africans, we are a people full of optimism and

working together we can do more to stay relevant in the global

village through discipline, dedication and hard work. We support the

Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, we need to, firstly, remind

ourselves that the Adjustment Budget merely allows for unavoidable

and unforeseeable expenditure to be taken account of.

Let me, firstly, give an assurance to those members who raised

concerns about whether this provision has been applied correctly. I

want to say that it has, that we have been very careful, and that,

in fact, a number of requisitions for funds to be allocated through

this mechanism were turned down, because the Treasury committee, not

any individual, was unconvinced that it amounted to unforeseen and

unavoidable expenditure. There were also a large number of

applications for roll-overs. Not all of them were approved. Only
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 79 of 185

those that had legitimate reasons given, which is largely about

long-term commitments to projects, were actually allowed.

Secondly, let us also give credit where it is due. Many years ago,

underspending was a serious problem in many areas, at provincial and

at national level. Today, underspending in the old form is no longer

a problem. Now the question is the quality of spending and the

quality of outcomes, and whether we are getting the value for money

that we would actually require.

Some colleagues have raised issues about the Municipal

Infrastructure Grant, MIG, during the course of these hearings and

the speeches made today. We are in agreement that this is something

that we need to look at more carefully, given that we want better

and more effective delivery at a local government sphere level. My

colleagues from the Department for Cooperative Governance and

Traditional Affairs will be engaging with us in further discussions

on that.

Land restitution, rural development and agricultural development

have been mentioned by several hon members as well. Minister Nkwinti

and we are very mindful of the necessity for more money to be

allocated to land restitution. Let us be frank. We have reached a

point in this process where it is totally unaffordable to carry on

on the old basis. Some new basis has been found, and I am going to

leave it to Minister Nkwinti to address those issues when he
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                   PAGE: 80 of 185

interacts with Parliament again. Let us be assured that the focus of

government, as a whole, on agricultural development and rural

development is a very profound one, and, as we move on, we will see

a lot more reserves coming from these two areas. Many of the

thoughts that have been expressed at the podium today will see

fruition I am sure, as we find our feet in these areas. So, there is

a very profound commitment to ensuring that we do create better work

opportunities for our people in the rural areas.

Several colleagues have addressed the issue of bail-outs. Again,

let’s be quite emphatic: Bail-outs are not going to be an endless

mechanism of funding for foolishness, mismanagement, poor judgment,

poor strategic leadership or no leadership at all. We are absolutely

clear about that. So, all of the colleagues on this side of the

House to whom I have responsibilities for State-Owned Enterprises,

SOEs, it is quite clear that over the next period and, already, for

the last few months, we have imposed very tough terms on SOEs that

require state assistance. Those terms mean that this assistance is

not an endless process. It has a very finite purpose. We expect

finite things to be done. We expect the right things to happen

within SOEs. Otherwise, the SOEs, themselves, must actually review

the purpose for their existence.

Cabinet has also decided that there will be a review process for all

of the SOEs, together with the relevant Cabinet colleagues, to

decide whether they still have a purpose, whether they operate as
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 81 of 185

effectively as they can do, whether they duplicate some of their

functions, and whether there can be greater efficiency in the way

they operate. Minister Hogan and I, amongst others, are responsible

for initiating this process.

We also agree with colleagues that greater productivity is required

from the Public Service. Here again, we have to emphasise that we

have to do more with less. Once again, some of our colleagues have

come back to the question of corruption, and are equivocating.

Corruption cannot be qualified. I think we must be quite unequivocal

and quite unqualified about the necessity to root it out. Now, there

are all sorts of ifs and buts that all of us can put forward. The

one message we need to be absolutely categorical and unequivocal

about is that it is not going to be tolerated in any form, anywhere,

by anybody, on any side of this House. [Applause.] That is the

message that we need to get through.

We agree with Dr Rabie, for example, that we want to get the right

balance between welfare and work, between those who are supported by

social grants and the tax base that they actually depend upon. That

is why, over the next while, we are going to have a lot more

emphasis on enterprise creation, entrepreneurship and job creation,

so that we can actually widen our tax base and have, not just for

the purposes of supplying more grants to people but rather to ensure

that people have the dignity of their own income and the ability to

make decisions about their own welfare, on the basis of what they
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                     PAGE: 82 of 185

get. A wider tax base will also enable us, as government and as

society, to take on many more challenges that we have, in respect of

both our legacy and our future challenges.

So, let me thank everyone concerned for their contributions and for

their positive support of the Adjustments Appropriation Bill. Thank

you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill read a first time.


               (Consideration of Votes and Schedule)

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): The proceedings will

initially take the form of a question and answer session. I shall

put each Vote in respect of which adjustments have been made in

turn, whereupon members will have the opportunity to ask questions

to the relevant Ministers, in respect of these adjustments. Each

party has been allocated a global time for all Votes. Once a party’s

time has expired, they will not be allowed to put further questions.

Members must please press the request to speak button, if they wish

to ask a question. Hon members will please wait until I recognise

them before putting their questions.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 83 of 185

Vote No 1 – Presidency - put.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, the DA wishes to raise

concern over the extra R7,6 million that has been allocated for the

establishment of the hotline that was originally planned to be

established for R4 million, especially around the fact that the

operational functionality of this hotline is seriously questioned.

However, our greatest concern is the additional R12 million

allocated for outstanding legal fees. Our efforts to determine what

these fees are for have yielded nothing to date. In the absence of

this information, the DA cannot support this adjustment for this

unavoidable and unforeseeable legal expense.


Chairperson, in respect of the hotline, I think that the hon Trollip

would be aware of the fact that there were teething problems in the

early period, but now it is entirely transparent. There is a flow of

information and the responses are there. So, if the grounds that he

opposes it on are the teething problems before the actual launch in

the pilot period, I want to submit that the grounds are pretty


In respect of the legal fees, there are two aspects to this. The one

is that it is very hard to budget for legal fees, partly because

fees are generated, and you can’t, in the middle of the year, say

this particular litigation now has to end. In the course of an
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 84 of 185

institution like The Presidency, anywhere, where there is extensive

litigation, not just in the volume of litigation but also in the

fees, it is something entirely outside of the control of any arm of

government. For this reason, the request was put. The Treasury

committee applied its mind to it, and I am pretty sure that this

will be money well spent.

Mr L S NGONYAMA: Chairperson and hon Minister, the view of the

Congress of the People is that in the current economic and service

delivery challenges facing our country, we definitely would have

preferred that priority is given to funding service delivery

programmes directly, rather than the expansion of the Cabinet, which

cost an estimate of R170 million. Was there no alternative that

could have been found to deal with the challenges facing the



Ngonyama, I am not quite sure where that view is from, because it

might be way down there. In the context of the number of Ministries,

I think that those who were around in 1994 will know that we moved

straight in. All of the offices were there. But in the course of the

past 15 years, a detailed evaluation was done, led by a team, which

my colleague, Minister Chabane, actually led, that looked at every

Ministry and its performance. It even went through the questions

that I asked here in Parliament about them. Then the team arrived at

a very strong motivation for the expansion of each of these.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 85 of 185

In the position that I am in presently, in the Planning Commission,

I think it is something that we will debate on at some length

tomorrow, but I think that the one issue that is not in dispute is

that we need a planning capacity that hasn’t been there. I think,

similarly, if you explore all of the other Ministries, it is

necessary to understand that we need to strengthen those who take

policy decisions and those who will be accountable for those

decisions, which is why the Cabinet was expanded in the way it was.

Thank you.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, this is just a follow-up.

We remain concerned, hon Minister, that the cost of establishment

was estimated to be R4 million. We are now allocating double that

again to the hotline. The concern around the legal fees, and I

accept that in the Presidency legal fees are very difficult to

budget for, but we would like to know whether these legal fees have

got anything to do with a legal case that the President was involved

in, personally?


Again, I think that in the context of the conventions, if people are

entitled to legal representation within the rules, all of these are

aggregated and the decisions on the particular allocations are

entirely fungible within the administration. You cannot say that

there was a case running, arising from the point when his

Excellency, Jacob Zuma, was Deputy President, and now he becomes
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 86 of 185

President and you cut this thing off. I think that in the convention

these things flow together, and it is necessary that we accept that

as a norm.

What you can’t escape from is that government runs in relation to

opposition on the basis of trust as well. I want to look the hon

Trollip in the eye and say that President Zuma, on a number of

occasions, has taken unprecedented steps to work with the

opposition, to afford them opportunities to ask their questions, to

build trust, and it is very important that that be the platform that

we take forward. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Order! I see hon L

Ramatlakane, hon D Carter, and hon H Ndude from Cope. Is it on the

same question? Not on the same question? I am guided by the screen,

because I only put Vote 1 so far, and now you have all pressed. Are

you coming?

Ms H N NDUDE: Chair, I am covered. My question was on the legal


Mr P F SMITH: Chair, with regard to the adjustment, it is R170

million, of which R96 million is for unforeseeable and unavoidable

expenditure, pertaining largely to the setting up of the new

department, I understand, the new Ministries. My question, Minister,

would be when is it expected that the two Ministries will be fully
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 87 of 185

up and running, the departments fully up and running, as well as the

third department? Are we going to be in a position next year, for

example, where we are also having unexpected, unavoidable

expenditure in respect of departments, which are still in the

process of being established, or will this exercise be completed by

the time of the main Budget next year?


Chair, the numbers for the three departments are quite different.

The Ministry that deals with performance monitoring and evaluation

already has infrastructure in place, because there was always a

Ministry in the Presidency. In the adjustments estimate, there is

provision for the expansion of that unit, so that should move


The Ministry of Women, Children and People with Disabilities will

actually exit from the Presidency and establish its own

infrastructure. That should be dealt with by the time of the Budget

in February. Similarly, depending on what transpires in this House

tomorrow on the Green Paper and the debate in the NCOP next week, we

should, by the time of the Budget in February, have a fixed number.

I think that the relationship that the Treasury would lead

government into with Parliament is to try and provide maximum

certainty, so that the provision for unforeseen and unavoidable

expenditures is used sparingly. That would be the case now; it’s
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 88 of 185

been the tradition, and I would imagine that it would be a

convention carried forward. Thank you.

Vote No 2 – Parliament – put.

Ms J D KILIAN: Chairperson, can I just quickly ask you? One of our

members, member Carter still wanted to ask a question on Vote No 1.

She was mentioned.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Well, I did ask whether there

were any, and then hon Ndude gave up, but we can go back to it then.

Let’s just get you, hon Carter.

No, no, it is their time that they are eating into. Just leave it

that way. It is the rules.

Ms D CARTER: Chairperson, thank you. Cope’s concern is why has an

additional R13 million been allocated for travelling expenses, etc.

However, only R4 million has been allocated towards the Ministry of

Women, Children and People with Disabilities.



notice that a number of new Ministries have been allocated money to

start setting up their administration, as you know most of them are

new. That amount is basically for that purpose, and, as we go into
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 89 of 185

the new financial year, when the systems and the administration have

been put up by the various departments, including this one, whether

a new budget is going to be allocated in accordance with the

functions and the programmes, which will be in those departments.

Basically, that is what accounts for the difference. Thank you.

Vote No 3 – International Relations and Cooperation – put.

Vote No 4 – Home Affairs – put.

Mr M MNQASELA: Chair, in light of the fact that R213 million has

been allocated to the Department of Home Affairs, to a department

that lacks proper financial management, lacks financial leadership

and, of course, displays a consistent trend of qualified audits, I

would like to ask the Minister: How will you ensure that we prevent

this poor financial management in the future? For this reason we are

opposing this increase.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chair, before I even answer the

question, the hon member has decided he is going to oppose. But

anyway, I will answer the question.

First of all, until about two months ago the Department of Home

Affairs had an acting chief financial officer, who had been seconded

from somewhere. Now we have a permanent chief financial officer who

is going to look after the finances of the department.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 90 of 185

Secondly, it is very clear that the major problem in terms of the

qualification comes from the revenue. The revenue is collected, but

it is not reconciled. So we are training our people in the offices

that they must work almost like a bank, that every day they must

say, this is the service that was requested, this is the amount that

goes with this service, and reconcile every day. If they do that, we

will be on our way to improving the financial management.

The second area of qualification was around asset management. The

assets had been recorded, but the problem came when assets were

moved. The problem was partly that the asset management was

centralised. You cannot sit in Pretoria and be responsible for

assets that are sitting in Pietermaritzburg. In every office there

must be somebody in charge of assets, who will account for the

assets in every office. But if you centralise it, it is very

difficult to maintain good management of those assets. So we are

doing that, but I think hon members must understand that we are

training people to do this. It is not going to be an overnight

thing. We are hoping that it won’t be long before we also have a

clean audit, but it is going to take a few months to do that.

I am just being honest with you, because I believe that I have to

answer questions honestly and give the House an honest perspective.

But it is regrettable that the hon member didn’t even want to hear

the answer before making up his mind. Thank you. [Applause.]
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 91 of 185

Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: Mr Chairman, we heard today from the

Minister of Finance that the allocation to the immigration function

of the Department of Home Affairs is tied to the development of the

card component of the Hanis Project. If I understood that correctly,

the question is in developing the Hanis Project. How much of this

money has already been tied into the decision to implement the smart

card with its microchip component? If that has been implemented, how

much consideration was given to the findings of the Buthelezi

administration of the Department of Home Affairs that the microchip

was a waste of money and the findings of the Prof Haysom Commission

on the matter?

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Ngicela angiphindele Sihlalo,

angizwanga kahle ukuthi uthini. [Could he please repeat himself

Chairperson? I could not properly understand what he was saying.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): The Minister is asking you to

repeat the question so that she can understand the question


Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: With pleasure, Chairperson. The Minister of

Finance drew a connection to the smart card. The options on the

smart card are to have a microchip or no microchip. During the

Buthelezi administration of the Department of Home Affairs ...

11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 92 of 185

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Order, hon members!

Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: ... a commission was established, led by

Prof Nicholas Haysom, which looked into the issue and decided that

it was a waste of money, and that there were cheaper options. So the

question is: How much of this allocation is already tied to a

microchip smart card to complete the Hanis Project?

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, on a point of order: The request

came from the hon Minister for the hon member to repeat his

question. Will that not eat into our time?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): No, it will not eat into your


Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Thank you.

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZASEKHAYA: Sihlalo, ungibuza ngento eyenzeka

mhlawumbe ngangisase Mnyangweni Wezempilo, mhlawumbe ngangise

Mnyangweni Wobudlelwane Namazwe Omhlaba, angazi. Kunguye umluleki

wayo yonke lento eyayenzeka. Kodwa impendulo yami ithi: ...

(Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, he is asking me about

something that happened when I might have either been at the

Department of Health or at the Department of International Relations
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 93 of 185

and Cooperation; I do not remember. And he was the consultant for

everything that was happening then. But my answer is: ...]

Regarding the smart card, we have decided, as was decided by my

predecessor, that the smart card is essential for the Department of

Home Affairs, and we continue with that decision. Obviously, when we

start putting together the smart card, we will decide whether it has

a microchip or not. I think it would be necessary to have a

microchip, but we are not there yet. Thank you. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Thank you, Minister. I want

to really caution members that when you ask questions, they must be

related to the subject matter, which is the Adjustments

Appropriation Bill. You should not go all over, around those

particular issues.

Mr P F SMITH: Chairperson, on a point of order: On the matter of

adjustments, is it possible for anybody to adjust the air

conditioning in here?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): They will attend to it. Thank

you for that.

Mr B A D MARTINS: Chairperson, the Minister of Home Affairs, in her

Budget Speech to Parliament, was frank on the challenges faced by

the Department of Home Affairs, and we gave an undertaking, as the
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 94 of 185

portfolio committee, to work hand in hand with the department. As a

result of that process, we have visited all major ports of entry to

South Africa, and we have compiled a report on our visits and the

challenges faced by the Department of Home Affairs.

When we started at the beginning of this year, there was a

turnaround strategy in place to deal with a multiplicity of

challenges, but there have also been successes. I am sure that the

Minister would be able to brief the House on progress that has been

made in regard to challenges found at the border posts and also the

offices of the Department of Home Affairs. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, hon Chair, and thank you to

the chairperson of the portfolio committee. Yes, members would

remember that my predecessor put together the turnaround strategy.

Amongst other things, it would look at how to make sure that an

Identity Document, ID, instead of taking 120 days or more, takes

less time. Processes were put in place, and indeed a process was

also put in place called “Track and Trace”, which allows the

applicant to track and trace where his or her application is. But

the department also uses that “Track and Trace” process to inform

members. Any member here who has applied for an ID recently will

tell you that when they apply, they receive SMSs saying, “we have

received your application”, “now it is being printed”, “now it is

being dispatched”, “now it is in the office where you can collect

11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 95 of 185

The turnaround strategy for the ID has resulted in an improvement of

about 50% on the 120 days it used to take ...

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, on a point of order: You have just asked

members to make sure that the questions are related to the

Adjustments Appropriation Bill. What we are dealing with now, is way

beyond that, Sir. I am asking you to instigate your ruling that in

actual fact we focus on the issue at hand, which is the Adjustments

Appropriation Bill.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): I just said that members must

be cautious, so I am hoping that they will be cautious. Let us just

proceed and see the improvement.

Mr M J ELLIS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, it is not just a question of being


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon Ellis, I did make that

ruling. I said caution should be taken.

Mr M J ELLIS: I am asking you, Sir, to implement the Rules as they

should be. This has to do with the Adjustments Appropriation Bill,

and questions should be related to it, and answers should be related

to it. There is no need for any long discussions on other matters.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 96 of 185

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Correct, hon Ellis. I said

cautionary measures should be taken by members when they ask

questions. Can we allow that then to begin to improve in the House.

Hon members, I think I will make that appeal. However, Minister, you

are on the floor – continue.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Sihlalo, into embi ukuthi laba bantu

bafuna ukuthi kuphendulwe imibuzo yabo kuphela, eyabanye

ingaphendulwa. [Chairperson, the sad thing is that these people want

me to respond only to their questions, and not to other people’s


When it is their questions, relevant or irrelevant, they never stand

up and say, “that question is irrelevant”. When an hon member from

this side has asked the question and I am trying to answer ...

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon Minister is

standing up now and accusing us of things that we actually don’t do.

We are saying that we are asking questions on the Adjustments

Appropriation Bill, and the Minister has no right to stand up and

say that we don’t.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): I get your point. But she

never referred to anybody; she was just generalising. So can we just

allow the Minister to finish? [Interjections.]
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 97 of 185

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Should I continue? How much time do I


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Ministers have unlimited

time, in terms of the Rules. [Interjections.] So can we just leave

it? The more you interject, the more you give them time yourselves.

So just leave the Minister to proceed. These are your Rules.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, hon Chair. Maybe the hon

members must understand what our mandate is. If we talk about

improvement, everything I have talked about is within the mandate of

the Department of Home Affairs, and is within the turnaround

strategy. I have not moved away from the question.

Secondly, I would like to say, since the hon Oriani-Ambrosini was

talking about the microchip, we now have state-of-the-art passports,

which you get in a very short time. I don’t know whether any of you

have applied for a passport recently. The state-of-the-art passport

has a microchip, hon Oriani-Ambrosini, and it has been turned

around. Also, if you have lost your ID, you can get a temporary ID

on the spot. We can scan your finger, and we can verify that you are

on our population register, and we can give you an ID.

Hon members, let me also take this opportunity to say that we have

started, and are going to accelerate, the registration of children

at birth. I hope hon members, during the recess, that you will take
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                  PAGE: 98 of 185

the opportunity to encourage their constituents to register their

children. We also want everybody who doesn’t have a birth

certificate to have it within a year. So in your constituencies, hon

members, make sure there is no single person who doesn’t have a

birth registration certificate. [Interjections.] At the end of one

year, we are going to do away with late registration. So they must

do it now.

Also, all people in your constituency must have an ID, because, as

politicians here, we are going to do away with the ID campaign

during elections ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon members, you are being

out of order. That is not parliamentary. You cannot disrupt the

House by clapping your hands, and you know that is completely out of

order. The Minister is responding to a question that was raised, so

can we just allow her to complete the response.

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, again on a point of order: Sir, it is the

same point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Mr Ellis, I think you

misunderstood me. I did not say “do not”; I said “caution should be

exercised”. And “do not” and “caution should be exercised” are two

different things. I just said that “caution should be exercised”

that we are discussing adjustments. [Interjections.]
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 99 of 185

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, I want to question your ruling.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): So on the cautioning, I

appealed to members, but I did not say to members “do not”. I said

“caution should be exercised” that we are dealing with the

adjustments. So the IFP did engage on an issue, and I allowed it.

The ANC has engaged on the issue, and I am allowing them, so I am

being balanced in the probabilities.

Mr M J ELLIS: On a point of order, Mr Chairman: I am questioning

your ruling. I am saying, Sir, that I believe that you are wrong.

You should not allow those questions that are not related to the

Adjustments Appropriation Bill to be put, and neither should

Ministers be allowed to respond to them. I am saying, Sir, that you

should be directing this meeting according to the Adjustments

Appropriation Bill, and nothing else.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Thank you, hon Ellis. Hon

Ellis, I didn’t say people “should not”, and I am repeating that. I

said “caution should be taken” that we don’t go all out. As much as

possible, we should confine ourselves to the matter where possible.

And members will use their judgment. Hon Minister?

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: In conclusion, hon Chair ...

11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 100 of 185

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Order, hon members!

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: In conclusion, I want to caution all

of us here: There will be no ID campaign in 2011 during elections.

It will not happen. The ID campaign is now. In 2011 nobody is going

to put Home Affairs in a pressure cooker for an ID campaign. Thank

you. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon members, can we really

proceed with that caution that I have requested, to ask questions

that are more relevant to the adjustments? Secondly, I know that

this is not the first time that we are dealing with questions to the

Ministers, but I know that in the past the ANC has not participated.

Now I think the ANC has decided to participate. Let us just allow

that procedure to take place and really respect the running of the

House and the Chair. I think the issue of slow-clapping was really

out of order.

Mr M MNQASELA: Chairperson, in light of the explanation by the

Minister, I wonder what a bank does when a teller says, “I fail to

reconcile my account?” Does the bank keep the teller or fire the

teller? What do they do?

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Baqalile ke, uma sengibaphendula

bazosokola. [Here they go again, and they will cry foul when I

11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 101 of 185

Hon members, obviously when somebody doesn’t do their job, there are

procedures. You give them a first warning, and if they don’t

perform, eventually, you fire them. That is standard procedure. I am

sure in the DA, if people don’t perform and you don’t win elections,

they must fire the person who is supposed to do the work. But, yes,

clearly, we are going to fire people who don’t do the work, but we

train them. As I said in my first response, we are training them.

Because it doesn’t help to just fire somebody when you have not

trained them. Give them an opportunity, train them, and if, after

training, they don’t perform, it means they are not willing to do

so. It is not because they do not know. So the first step is

training. Then after that, we make sure that they perform. Thank


Mnu B W DHLAMINI: Sihlalo, Ngqongqoshe ukhuluma into enkulu uma uthi

abantwana abazelwe ababhaliselwe izitifiketi zokuzalwa, kuthi abantu

abangenabo omazisi bababhalise manje.

La ngakhulela khona eBonjini eSoweto, lapho abantu abazalelwa khona

kungekho ngisho umtholampilo noma isibhedlela - umuntu angabi

nasicucu nje esithi wazalelwa lapho.

Ngabe uMnyango kaNgqongqoshe uzokwenza kubelula yini ukuthi abantu

bakwazi ukuthola usizo, kuthi nongakaze asonte kungashiwo ukuthi aye

kumfundisi ngoba akamazi umfundisi? Ngabe uMnyango wakho uzokwazi

yini ukwenza kube lula ukuthi abantu bakwazi ukubhalisa basizakale,
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 102 of 185

njengokuthi amaLungu ePhalamende, amakhosi, noma amakhansela, akwazi

ukusiza abantu ngokuthi babhaliseke? Ngoba inkinga ukuthi kunabantu

abazalelwe ezindaweni ezisemakhaya ezingenayo imitholampilo noma

izibhedlela. Ngalokho-ke kungabibikho sicucu sokuthi wazalwa, kodwa

bube bukhona ubufakazi bokuzalwa, ukuthi ubani uzalwa umabani

nobani. Ngiyathokoza. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr B W DHLAMINI: Chairperson and hon Minister, what you told us

here is very good when you said that newborns should receive birth

certificates and that people who do not have IDs should register now

to receive them.

In some places like Bonjini, Soweto, a place where I grew up, people

give birth to children without the necessary facilities like clinics

or hospitals, and people do not have any form of identification as

proof of being born in those places.

Could your department make it easy for people to receive assistance,

and that even someone who has never belonged to any church should

not be referred to a minister of religion of some church as they do

not have any? Could your department make it easy for people to be

registered and can Members of Parliament, Amakhosi, or councillors

assist in getting them registered? I am saying this because there

are people who were born in places where there are no clinics or

hospitals. Therefore, they have no proof of existence whilst there
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 103 of 185

is testimony of being born, that so and so was borne to Mrs and Mr

so and so. Thank you.]

I will cautiously make a follow-up, Chair.

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZASEKHAYA: Ngiyabonga Lungu eliHloniphekileyo. Yebo,

empeleni sesiqalile ukukwenza lokho. Senze amahhovisi angomahamba

nendlwana. Siqale eSisonke naseLusikisiki. Uma ngabe umuntu efika

engenasicucu simthumela emakomidini esiwakhile esisebenza nawo

kulaba bomahamba nendlwana, ukuzama ukusheshisa. Lawa makomidi

akhiwe ngabantu abahloniphekile abakhona emphakathini. Ngizokwenzela

isibonelo nje, elinye ikomidi linabantu ababengothishanhloko

asebethatha umhlalaphansi, abafundisi, kanye nabanye abantu

abanesikhathi asebathatha umhlalaphansi, ngoba sifuna ukuthi lo

mkhankaso usheshe.

Uma siphuma ngalaba omahamba nendlwana, nekomidi liba khona.

Esikhundleni sokuthi uma ubhalisa kuthiwe hamba uyolanda lokhu,

nalokhuya, uyaye uhlolwe ubuzwe imibuzo khona lapho, kuze kuthathwe

isinqumo khona lapho ngoba abantu bomphakathi bayabazi abantu

bakhona. Bayakwazi nokusheshe bambone nomuntu othi engowakaSithole

kodwa uma bethi kuye: o! unjani Jobe, kodwa yena athi: hhayi! Jobe

mina-Sithole. [Uhleko.] Bayaye basheshe bakwazi ukuthi hhayi lona

nokho...Ngaleyo ndlela, yinto vele ebesesiyiqalile. Sizoyiqhuba kuzo

zonke izindawo, kodwa besisazama ukuthi sibone ukuthi yiziphi
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 104 of 185

izinkinga esizohlangabezana nazo uma siyenza kanje. Kodwa sizokwenza

kube lula. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you hon member. Yes, as a

matter of fact, we have started doing that. We have come up with the

idea of setting up mobile offices. We have launched such offices in

Sisonke and Lusikisiki.

When an individual comes without a piece of identification, we refer

him or her to the committees that we have established to work

together with these mobile offices. These committees are made up of

respectable members of communities. Let me make an example: One

committee is made up of retired principals, retired ministers of

religion and other available retired people, because we want to

expedite this campaign.

When we go on site with these mobile offices, committees come with

us. When registering, instead of being sent from pillar to post, you

are usually assessed by being asked questions on the spot, and a

decision is also taken on the spot, because members of the

communities know people from their own areas. They are also able to

quickly see an individual who happens to be a Sithole, but when

greeted by his clan name, by saying: oh! Jobe, how are you? He or

she responds in broken isiZulu by saying: No! I am not Jobe, but

Sithole. [Laughter.] They are quick to know that no, this one ...

This is what we have already started. And we are going to take this
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 105 of 185

to other areas as we were just putting this on trial to see what

kind of problems we were going to encounter if we did it this way.

But we are going to make it easy. Thank you.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Thank you, hon Minister.

Vote No 5 – Public Works – put.

Mr F T MASANGO: Chairperson, your department hon Minister has been

allocated R150 million for buying houses and offices for the

additional new Ministers and Deputy Ministers. Can the Minister tell

us how many houses and offices he is going to buy and what price

range is that the Minister is looking at, especially the houses?

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, when you go home at

night, hon Masango, you go home to a beautifully renovated house in

Acacia Park, nice and comfortable, fully refurbished, public works

spend hundreds of millions of rand on Acacia Park. Some of the

people on this side of the House don’t have a house to go to tonight

and they have to go to a hotel.

So, let’s get our priorities right. The mandate of the public works

is to do exactly that ... [Interjections.] ... to provide official

residences for Ministers and Deputy Ministers, like it does for

Members of Parliament, so I don’t see what the big fuss is. Nobody

asked us how much we spent when our houses were renovated in Acacia
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 106 of 185

Park. Maybe that would be the question we should ask against the

hundreds of millions we spent on the three parks, so that we don’t

distort this issue.

Now, to get back to your question, we are in line with the

requirements of the extended Cabinet and we will provide the

necessary residences and offices. And we will be accountable to

Parliament in the usual manner. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr P B MNGUNI: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, R150 million is

allocated for offices and residences for the new Ministers. Does

this also allow for spending on luxuries, decorations and expensive

hotel accommodation for Ministers? In the same vein, Minister, I

wanted to comment on the R114,5 million allocated to the Community

Works Programme, whilst the Ministers are getting R150 million.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, the answer to the first

part of the hon member’s question is no, the R114,5 million is funds

that have been transferred to the Independent Development Trust,

IDT, the Community Works Programme and the nonwage portion of the

Expanded Public Works Programme.

These figures are available, hon Mnguni, and you know that these

presentations were made yesterday in the committee. This is what was

announced by the Minister of Finance in the Budget and the

Adjustments Estimates actually make it happen. So, if you had
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 107 of 185

listened carefully to the Budget and gone back to read the Minister

of Finance’s Budget Speech, you would have seen that these figures

were there. This is the mechanism to bring the money where it

belongs. I thank you.

Agreed to.

Vote No 6 - Government Communications and Information System – put.

Vote No 7 – National Treasury – put.

Vote No 8 – Public Administration Leadership and Management Academy

– put and agreed to.

Vote No 9 – Public Service and Administration – put.

Vote No 10 – Public Service Commission – put.

Vote No 11 – Statistics South Africa – put.

Vote No 12 – Arts and Culture – put.

Vote No 13 – Education – put.

Ms J C KLOPPERS-LOURENS: Chairperson, for the realisation of quality

education in our schools we need to recommit ourselves to quality
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 108 of 185

teaching in our classrooms. Mr Minister, how does the high salary

increases translate to improvement in education delivery and, more

specifically, in the productivity of teachers in their classrooms?

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, thank you hon member.

I fully agree with you that to get quality education indeed we are

reliant on good teachers. For us it is very important to make sure

that our teachers are rewarded accordingly, their contributions are

recognised, and their conditions of services, which include their

salaries, are in order.

The truth of the matter is that, if one looks at the teacher’s

salaries, including the increment one can see that up to now it is

still not where it should be. In terms of the wellbeing of our

teachers, we are currently in a bad situation where our teachers

cannot even afford a decent house. So, it is important for us that

on an ongoing basis we make sure that teachers are given decent

salaries so that their living conditions could reflect that of the

important profession they fulfil.

We agreed, and I think you also agree with me, that we have to

endeavour at all costs to make sure that we keep on improving their

salaries as decent professionals as they are very critical in our

11 NOVEMBER 2009                                   PAGE: 109 of 185

Ms F I CHOHAN: Chairperson, with this adjustment government is

really and truly putting its money where its mouth is in the sense

that education has been the priority. And improving literacy and

numeracy is clearly a major priority in this regard.

Five hundred and twenty-four million rand will be going towards

purchasing workbooks for primary school students. This will

basically be dealing a death blow to two of the major challenges

that we have as far as our education system is concerned.

The first is task on time: learning and teaching happening in the

class. The second, of course, is addressing the major challenge

regarding some deficiencies amongst our teachers in terms of

teaching abilities, and so on. With this in mind, Minister, can you

assure the House that workbooks will be on every primary school desk

by the beginning of the year in 2010?

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, just directly to the

question, yes, we are doing all we can to make sure that come the

beginning of the year we will have workbooks given to our children.

More importantly, one of the key contributory factors in education

to improve quality is access to a good textbook.

If you have a good textbook, properly facilitated, you can even

afford to have the poorly qualified teachers that we sometimes have.

So, a resource book is very crucial and critical to education, and
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 110 of 185

because of its critical nature, we are doing all we can, with my

colleagues there, to make sure that come the beginning of the year

2010, the first month, we have books in front of all the learners.

We are hoping that with the money given to us we will even be able

to go beyond the numbers that we thought we could reach. Because our

budgets were based on sending money to provinces, but now that we

are going to procure centrally, with printing centrally and

distributing centrally, we have a sense that we would be able to

give it to all the learners. Unlike what we had committed to before,

that we would only give books to 60% of the learners, with the

centralised procurement we might be able to cover all the learners

in the system, including kids in Quintile 5.

Mr L S NGONYAMA: Chairperson, the Minister last week reported to the

House that outcomes-based education, OBE, will be fazed out. Now, we

have this R524 adjustment on workbooks, does that include Outcomes-

Based Education, OBE, as well, or is that fazed out already?

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, I think that is a very

useful question, because I think we need to clarify things once and

for all around where we are going, so that we don’t have comebacks.

Hon members, what informs a curriculum? Let us talk about the

curriculum of the country and not even use labels because this OBE

has become a red herring. Each time we want to talk about curriculum

people raise OBE.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 111 of 185

We are saying that a curriculum is informed by principles. The

principles and values which are in your Constitution and as a

country we had framed these as outcomes, these are the principles of

nonracialism, nonsexism, and peace. These are the principles which

were even in your initial curriculum statement that you called OBE.

You can’t throw away those principles as they continue to inform our


What I said last week was that we are within that framework of

outcomes or principles that we had termed as outcomes. What we are

improving on is resources, reduction of work, and changing the

assessment systems. It is important for us that at all times we just

talk about the curriculum and not give it labels, because it is when

we label that we create confusion as to whether we still have OBE or


What we are saying is that we are improving your assessments and

resources, so that it could inform the principle. We said we are

rewriting the syllabi and therefore providing textbooks has nothing

to do with principles. The textbook is going to support your syllabi

or the contents of your curriculum. I think it is quite useful for

us to have a common understanding of what we are talking about,

because we keep on having people asking us if this is OBE or not. It

is neither here nor there.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 112 of 185

We are talking about a new curriculum for the country and these

workbooks are meant to support that curriculum. When I spoke about

the review, I said some of the weaknesses that were picked up by

that review committee were poor resources in support of the

curriculum. These textbooks are meant to address that problem of

resources in support of the curriculum. I never said we will not

teach children the history of this country. It remains there as it

was always there in the old curriculum and it is going to continue

to be there so that we teach our children the history of this


In the past, we never stopped teaching kids how to multiply. We did

it in the old curriculum and we are introducing resources to empower

that exercise. The knowledge does not change – we are giving

resources to the knowledge part of the curriculum. [Applause.]

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, may I ask a question?

[Interjections.] Chairperson, because you have allowed the debate to

move further away from the estimates, the Minister is now raising

very interesting questions to which we must respond and ask further

questions. Are you going to allow more time because we now have ...


I am addressing the Chairperson and not the hon members ...

11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 113 of 185

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Just continue, hon member.

But, hon Mpontshane, as you are addressing me, we are not sure

whether you are already asking your question or not, because this is

going to eat into your time. [Interjections.]

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, seriously, I am asking you, are you

going to allow us more time because ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): No! There was not going to be

any allowance of any time.

Vote No 14 – Health – put.

Mr N SINGH: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, many hospitals in our

country are in a dismal state and the reason that they are not being

refurbished is because there is no money. Could you give reasons why

there was a need for a R183 million roll-over for the hospital

revitalisation grant not spent in the Western Cape and Mpumalanga?

Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: We have noted amongst other things

that the capacity to absorb the money has delayed our ability to

transfer to the provinces. The Minister met the MECs recently and

together we decided that we shall appoint people with the requested

skills so that they are able to receive the money and engaged with
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 114 of 185

the service providers so that the clearance of the funds can proceed

without delay.

Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, in the National

Assembly on 21 October 2009 the Minister stated that eight of the

nine provinces are likely to run out of antiretrovirals, ARVs,

before the end of the financial year. The allocation of R900 million

towards the Antiretroviral, ARV, Programme is highly welcomed. We

certainly do not want to repeat what happened in the Free State when

health services were cut in a moratorium when the new ARV initiation

was imposed. Many people on the programme did not receive their ARVs

for nearly a month; causing treatment interruptions, possible drug

resistance, and increased opportunistic infections.

During this period it is estimated that an additional 30 people died

per day in the Free State and that the waiting list trebled to

15 000 people. Will the Minister give this House an assurance that

the R900 million allocated, which is R300 million less than what was

requested, is sufficient for all provinces to provide ARVs to all

those that are currently on the programme and those on the waiting

list? I thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, we requested

R1,2 billion and we are grateful for the R900 million that we

received. We have secured a balance of R300 million from donor

funding and, therefore, the whole R2,2 billion, which was based on
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 115 of 185

the careful measurement of the needs in the provinces, will be

available and used to clear all backlogs and enrol all needy


We estimate that this will take our coverage to 1 025 million

persons, which is more than the 700 000 people that we currently

have. We want to give assurance that there shall be no repeat of the

problems and tragedies that we saw in the past. Thank you very much.

Mr D A KGANARE: Chairperson, the R1 billion allocated under

programme two to strategic health and the additional R30 million for

emergency services for the 2010 World Cup does not qualify as

unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure. These were supposed to

have been accommodated in the main Budget. Can the Deputy Minister

explain why these were not accommodated in the main Budget or does

he agree that this is simply poor planning?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, I thought the Adjustment

Budget is not only about unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure.

Sometimes one does so much work that extra money is needed to do

even more work. So, I want to make a plea that the hon member should

read the Adjustment Budget in that context.

Mr E M SULLIMAN: Chairperson, the bulk of the R900 million allocated

for the management of the HIV goes towards antiretroviral drugs, I

would like to know from the Deputy Minister whether they have any
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 116 of 185

plans to try and procure these antiretroviral drugs at a lower price

through, for example, parallel importation. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, the hon Minister

Motsoaledi has repeatedly said, in and out of the House, that the

challenge that we have now is to cover as many people needing

treatment and to have sustainable supplies. He has advised that we

look for the most affordable medicines and other possible supplies,

meaning locally and internationally. We have not ruled out the

possibility of parallel importation; we shall do so with great

sensitivity to local economies and the security of jobs. Our

priority is to get as much of the treatment as possible at the most

affordable price so that we can sustain treatment over as long a

period as possible. Thank you very much.

Vote No 15 – Labour – put.

Vote No 16 – Social Development – put.

Vote No 17 – Sports and Recreation South Africa – put.

Vote No 18 – Correctional Services – put.

Vote No 19 – Defence and Military Veterans – put.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                  PAGE: 117 of 185

Mr D J MAYNIER: Chairperson, we have made some very good progress in

the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans, but four

combat readiness briefings have been cancelled by the Ministry of

Defence. Will the Minister now commit to give the defence force the

green light to brief Parliament on the combat readiness of the SA

National Defence Force; because it will only then judge the effect

of the Budget on Defence and Military Veterans?


to share with the House a bit of intelligence that I got via the

grapevine. Apparently, there was a party for the DA yesterday, and

awards were given to members of the DA. There was an award for “the

most robust Member of Parliament”, “the one who sleeps the most on

benches”, etc. Then, there was one for “guess who will not get a

present from the Minister this year?”. And you know who got the

award? David Maynier. [Laughter.] Congratulations, hon David


I would just like to say to the hon Maynier that upon the production

by the chairperson of a resolution from the portfolio committee

requesting that this briefing be given, with the conditions as laid

out in our laws, I will certainly oblige. I have not received any

request from the portfolio committee based on any resolution taken

by the portfolio committee; so I have no idea what hon David Maynier

is talking about. Thank you.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 118 of 185

Vote No 20 – Independent Complaints Directorate - put.

Vote No 21 – Justice and Constitutional Development - put.

Vote No 22 – Police – put.

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, I am extremely disappointed in the

current governing party, that neither the Minister of Police nor his

Deputy has seen fit to be here this evening. Perhaps ...


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): The Minister of State

Security will answer the question.

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Is he going to answer on behalf of the Minister

of Police? That’s alright. The head of the Directorate for Priority

Crime Investigation, DPCI, was appointed on the 21 May 2009. Today,

nearly six months later, we have seen that they have transferred the

money from the Scorpions to the Hawks.

Could whichever Minister, explain if this is merely officialising

the agreed transfer and that the money has already been utilised in

establishing the Hawks or not? Either way, could he explain to this

House why it seems as if many of the ex-Scorpion members who have

moved to the Hawks have suffered large pay cuts against all labour

legislation and have in many instances stayed for six months with no
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 119 of 185

computers, emails or printers and have been taken off the 639 cases

they worked on while in the Scorpions and have instead been

scattered around the country to the three existing South African

Police Service, SAPS, units: organised crime, commercial crime and

crime intelligence? If those units already existed, what exactly is

the Hawks, except a name?

The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY (on behalf of the Minister of

Police): Chairperson, the funny part of it is that while the hon

member was sitting here in the House, she has just released a press

statement, where she claimed that she had some sources within the

police. Our duty is to answer the member’s question on whether the

Directorate for Priority Crime Investigations, DPCI, is functioning.

Yes, it has been established and it is functioning. But some of the

facts that you have just mentioned now, are not correct. Firstly,

there were no salary reductions for any members who came from

Scorpions, as this would constitute a breach of our labour laws.

This is a correct statement. In this regard, your sources were

incorrect. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Secondly, you have indicated that some of the former members of the

Directorate of Special Operations, DSO, did not have computers. That

is not true anymore. However, it is true that there have been some

challenges in the beginning of the integration process. It was not

caused by any level of inefficiency. Part of the main problem was
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                   PAGE: 120 of 185

that the lease for some of the computers coming from the DSO had

expired. But the police, particularly the Hawks, moved with speed to

ensure that all the members who needed to do their work had the

necessary equipment. They hired the computers and we are in the

process of ensuring that we are purchasing them with these

adjustments. That is a fact, and I am sorry for saying that it will

be more appropriate that we engage the Ministry rather than going

through these uninformed information peddlers. I thank you.


Mnu V B NDLOVU: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. Kunemali esuswe kumnyango owenza

uphenyo yahanjiswa kwingqalasizinda, ingabe leyo mali izokwenzani?

Angizwa! (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you Chairperson. What will the money that was

moved from the Special Investigation Unit, SIU, to the

infrastructure be used for? I can’t hear you!]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon members, I would like to

hear the question. Qhubeka baba [Continue, Sir.]

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Kunemali esuswe ngapha ngasekuphenyeni yahanjiswa

kwingqalasizinda, manje ngibuza ukuthi laphaya lapho iye khona

kwingqalasizinda iyokwenzani ngoba uphenyo yiwona msebenzi

wamaphoyisa nje?
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                  PAGE: 121 of 185


Wezamaphoyisa): Kuyiqiniso ukuthi kukhona izimali ezazikhona kulaba

ababephethe ezophenyo abangazange bakwazi ukuzisebenzisa ngonyaka

odlule. Ingxenye yalezo zimali ithathiwe yafakwa lapha

kwingqalasizinda. Ingxenye yaleyo mali ilinganiselwa kwizigidi

ezingama-R93 zamarandi. Ilungu elihloniphekile lizokhumbula ukuthi

... (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Mr V B NDLOVU: My question is, for what will the money that was

transferred from the Special Investigation Unit, SIU, to the

infrastructure be used for because investigation is the core

function of the police?

The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: (on behalf of The Minister of

Police): It is true that there were some monies that were allocated

to those who are in charge of the Special Investigation Unit, which

they were unable to spend last year. Part of that money has been

transferred to the infrastructure. That money amounted to

approximately R93 million. The hon member will remember that ...]

... the Minister has announced that the cluster agreed to move, in

order to implement the criminal justice review process. Most of that

money will go to the improvement of our systems, particularly,

fingerprinting, which is used by the police. The R93 million will be

moved for a good cause. If the session has not spent the money and

we have new priorities, which we as government have agreed upon, and
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 122 of 185

have been put and accepted by the portfolio committee, it will be

appropriate to move the money to this type of infrastructure. It is

currently needed in order to ensure that we increase our capacity to

deal with crime. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M E GEORGE: Hon Minister, how can protection and security

services get an additional R80,7 million when the amount for crime

intelligence went down, just before the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup?

Secondly, how can detective services be reduced by more than R62

million, notwithstanding the fact that the Hawks will now be

incorporated into Programme 3? I thank you.

The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY (on behalf of the Minister of

Police): Chairperson and the hon George, I have just indicated that

in as far as some of the these monies which are being moved are

concerned, the only money that has been injected into the department

is a small amount of about R1 billion, which is dealing with salary

increases. The other money is a shift of unspent funds. Those

unspent funds are not being moved to reduce the capacity within the


In all those units from which the money had been moved, we have

ensured that there is continued capacity to do their work. The money

unspent is moved to the priority areas which I have identified; as

you have indicated, the establishment of the Hawks. We want to

ensure that we have these systems, which you said must link with the
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 123 of 185

rest of the criminal justice cluster in order to ensure a coherent

approach to fighting crime. I thank you.

Vote No 23 – Agriculture – put.

Vote No 24 – Communications – put.

Mr N J VAN DEN BERG: Chairperson, the SABC is a public and not a

state broadcaster. The DA supports Vote No 24 on Communications. The

SABC is a public broadcaster with more than 24 million listeners and

viewers everyday. The people’s broadcaster is the only way to be

connected to the world. We have agreed that the R200 million should

be paid to the SABC to keep its doors open. However, this is not

nearly enough to resolve the financial crisis at the SABC. How will

the balance of the shortfall be funded to ensure that the SABC

remains financially viable? I thank you.

The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Hon Chairperson and hon member, we

also agree that the SABC is a public broadcaster that needs to be

supported. Hence the adjustment of R200 million in order to fund its

liquidity, which will be controlled by the Department of

Communications on its monthly management accounts. On a monthly

basis we will check that it spends the money that has been allocated

to it.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 124 of 185

No new contracts will be allowed without the Minister’s sanction,

which are worth more than R1 million. We are appointing a new CEO

who has 25 years’ experience and an acting CEO. Currently there is

no CEO. We are working with the interim board, the task team and

Treasury to ensure that the money that SABC got through the

adjustment is well spent. On the shortfall, the SABC is currently

engaging with Treasury, trying to get a government guarantee.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Minister, just ignore the


The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: The negotiations are going on in

order to fund the total shortfall that the SABC is currently

experiencing. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms J D KILIAN: Chairperson, I have a question for the Minister. On

the one hand we are giving a R200 million bail-out to the SABC to

help them overcome the serious financial problems that they are

facing. On the other hand, provision is made in the adjustment

appropriation for a R4,4 million restraint of trade for the former

group CEO. Can the Minister really and morally justify that? I thank


The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chairperson and hon member, firstly,

let me start by indicating that the negotiations between the former
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 125 of 185

CEO and the board were done without the Minister’s involvement, but

with his support. When the interim SABC board came into office, we

specifically requested that it should begin the stabilisation of the

SABC by, among other things, beginning to address the question of a

CEO, who has been in office there, and who was in dispute with the

old board, but being a defector without him doing any work.

The board had the blessing of the Department of Communications to

ensure that they should settle with the group CEO as soon as

possible. Justification for that was the fact that the SABC had been

in limbo for months. Even now, if the interim board had not

undertaken these steps and had not settled in the way it did, that

situation would still exist.

We think that the board should be commended for taking the steps

that it took in order to, in the first place, consider the stability

of the SABC. Everybody here has praise for the steps that the SABC’s

interim committee has generally undertaken, ever since its

establishment, not long ago. I think it has done well. I thank you.

Vote No 25 – Environmental Affairs and Tourism – put.

Vote No 26 – Human Settlements – put.

Vote No 27 – Rural Development and Land Reform – put.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 126 of 185

Mr M M SWATHE: Chairperson, as the Minister is aware, the Department

of Rural Development and Land Reform had spent 100% of its current

budget. Given that the adjustment is R292 million, mainly for

salaries, and that the department has commitments of R3,4 billion in

signed contracts with landowners, how will the department finance or

honour these commitments under Programme 4: Restitution?


the hon member is saying is not correct. We have spent 100% of the

Restitution Budget for this financial year, but not everything.

Secondly ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Order, hon members!


Chair, we have requested an amount of R220 million. We have

reprioritised and discussed this with Treasury. We have agreed that

we can reprioritise and make some money available for clearing the

signed contracts. So that is what we are going to do. It is

therefore not entirely correct to say that we have spent 100% of our

Budget. Thank you.

Ms P DE LILLE: Chairperson, I am very happy to hear that there will

be money made available for the land claims. I just want to ask the

Minister: How long will it take to implement this new system? The

hon chairperson of the portfolio committee can confirm that we have
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 127 of 185

received quite a lot of enquiries about outstanding land claims.

Will you settle all the old ones before you go over to the new

system? Thank you.


not sure about the new system. Maybe the hon member could explain

that and then I can respond. I would like to be pointed in my


Ms P DE LILLE: Yes, hon Chairperson. The hon Minister of Finance

said earlier on that we cannot continue with this old system of

willing buyer, willing seller, in terms of which government needs to

pay three times the market value, and we have to look at a new



Chairperson, now I understand. Hon Chair, the willing buyer, willing

seller model is government policy, as we speak. It is under review.

We are going to present to this House, next year, a Green Paper for

discussion. We have already developed the framework, and we are busy

developing that ourselves. We want to present to government a

proposal as to how we go about changing that.

Secondly, because it involves a lot of people, we are also

consulting with the people who are affected by this. People have

been working on the policy, and they have been planning according to
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 128 of 185

that. So we can’t say today that on date x this is what we are going

to do, but certainly, I can imagine that hon members will

participate in this Green Paper and we expect that they will assist

us in finding a much fairer solution than the willing buyer, willing

seller model that we have today.

Mr T BOTHA: Chair, hon Minister, given the failure to urgently

address the issue of land redistribution and restitution, which is a

potential time bomb, and given the sensitivity and importance of

land redistribution in this country for the stability of the

country, can the hon Minister explain the decrease in the allocation

of funds to land reform grants under Programme 5, and the impact

thereof on land restitution goals?


Chair. I imagine that the hon member is referring to Subprogramme

5.05. We are faced with a challenge in rural development. The

challenge that hon members keep raising, as the hon Swathe and the

hon De Lille have done now, is indeed a challenge. Now, we have had

to reprioritise. I think that is really what I have been referring

to. We have had to reprioritise, in order for us to be able to clear

the desk.

The challenge is this: Once you have signed the settlement

agreement, what will happen is, if you don’t pay, the costs will

escalate, because you will have to pay interest. A complicating
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                  PAGE: 129 of 185

factor is that some people have gone to court. The department has

been taken to court. As we speak, there are cases that are before

the court. There are two types of cases. In one the matter might be

settled in court today and we might be called on to pay today –

those cases amount to R377 million, as we speak. We don’t have that

money. The other type of case that is before the court are those

where the court might say, you have agreed, settle. In other words,

it is a performance issue – and these cases amount to R202 million.

Now, once the court takes a decision, we have to comply with that.

We have had to position ourselves in order to be able to meet that

challenge when it comes about. It is not something that we like, but

it is something that we have to do, given the constraints that we

are faced with right now. Thank you, hon Chair.

Mr P S SIZANI: Chair, seeing that R250 million in the Additional

Appropriation has been earmarked for the new Comprehensive Rural

Development Programme of the new department, can the Minister tell

us whether this money will target poverty and unemployment in the

rural areas, and in what way will the Ministry be able to deal with

the poverty that we are experiencing in those areas?


hon Swathe has referred to this amount of money, and has said that

it would mainly go to salaries. Actually, we got R289 million, I

think. Of that R289 million, R250 million will go to service
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 130 of 185

delivery. That is what the hon chair of the portfolio committee is

asking. I am happy that he has asked this question, so that I can

explain the points further.

Now, of the R250 million that he has referred to here, R90 million

will go to fencing, for ploughing and grazing land, across the

country, or rather, in the nine provinces. So that is service

delivery, in our view, and, in agreement with the provinces, that

money will be used to create jobs. But there will also be an element

of quality control, for which we have an agreement with the Ministry

of Public Works, so that we can make use of the Independent

Development Trust. Of course, in Mpumalanga we are using their

trust. There is a trading trust in Mpumalanga, where we have already

provided, between August and now, 260km of fence. In KwaZulu-Natal

we are using Ithala. So we are creating jobs through that. In the

Eastern Cape we are negotiating to use Asgisa EC to ensure that the

quality of the fence that we are erecting is good. So this is what

is going to happen all over the place in terms of that.

With regard to the remaining R160 million, we are working with Fort

Hare University, which is helping us in doing other things. Amongst

these other things, we want to develop an agripark, particularly in

Mpumalanga, because there is plenty of water in Mpumalanga. We have

discussed the possibility of getting land there with the Premier a

couple of weeks ago. We will get land, actually, to create an

irrigation facility, and then we can start producing vegetables
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 131 of 185

there. But we also want to encourage, with that same money, food

gardens, so that people can sell there. We want to create a market

through the agripark, as well as a processing plant, so that we can

process vegetables into vegetable soup. So we are going to create

social infrastructure.

We are also intervening in health facilities. If we get to a rural

area where there are no clinics, or the mobile clinics come once a

week or so, or don’t come as often as they should, this relates to

the problem of the roads infrastructure. We are intervening there.

So that money is going to go to food gardens, to roads, to fencing

gardens - because this we must do - and to water.

The hon Minister for Agriculture has really done government a lot of

good. Consider, for example, the refining of water in places such as

Masha, where you have water constraints, not just because water is

scarce, but because of the quality of the water. So the Minister has

come in, but the Minister of Communications also has come in, in

relation to the e-centres to follow. The Minister of Energy is

coming in for electrification in all these places. So we are not

working in terms of creating this infrastructure ourselves. We

create opportunities for other departments to come in and do the

work themselves.

The R160 million will certainly be spread a little wider than the

one place, that is Masha, but across the provinces. Also, we will
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 132 of 185

initiate, and the other departments will come in and complete the

job, whether it concerns health facilities, or schools, or other

things. We will do that in Mpumalanga, because the Department of

Education may not be ready yet, but we are ready to assist there in

Mpumalanga. There is one school where children from seven grades

have to study in one room, and we have to intervene there.

So the money is not going to go to salaries. It is not correct to

say so. Thank you. [Applause.]

Vote No 28 – Minerals and Energy – put.

Vote No 29 – Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs – put.

Mr P F SMITH: Chairperson, Minister with regard to this nice

booklet, here, the Treasury Regulation System specifies that

unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure excludes the following two

things: Firstly, spending increase due to tariff adjustments and

price increases. Secondly, spending to extend existing services

beyond the unforeseeable; unforeseen. Now, in your budget, there is

an amount of R509 million under unforeseeable and unavoidable

expenditure allocated for increase costs or to provide free basic

electricity. Presumably, that’s impossible because of tariff

increases; and the other explanation would be, presumably, the roll-

out, which is beyond expectations. It’s hard to believe, since there

is a service delivery crisis, which makes it difficult to believe
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 133 of 185

that there has been such a heavy success. What is the R 109 million

for, if it’s not for those two issues? And how are our

municipalities compensated for tariff increases by Eskom? Thank you.


Chairperson, it’s quite interesting to hear member Smith trying to

describe the situation in municipalities, as if it’s a crisis. In

relation to the issues that are there, for all intents and purposes,

he’s misinterpreting it. There is no doubt that there are

challenges, but these are not crises. This is a misrepresentation of

the facts; in fact, that statement is bordering on misleading the


Responding on the issue of what will happen to the money and how to

ensure that we compensate for the increases; I think hon Smith has

answered his own question, that the amount of over R500 million is

aimed at ensuring that it assists the poor in relation to the

forthcoming tariff increases. Therefore, it is a matter that has

been taken care of.

The second matter is an issue around the increase of R900 million

which is dealing with supporting the poor in relation to tariff

increases. The situation, Mr Smith, in municipalities is that they

are undergoing a turn-around process; there is no crisis. Don’t

describe it the way you do. Those are challenges that are within our

power to be addressed.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 134 of 185

Mr P F SMITH: I have a follow-up ...

Mr W P DOMAN: Chairperson, hon Minister, you are asking us to vote

for R288 million of roll-over funds for the infrastructure frant

programme; my question is, how are you and you department going to

ensure that this money is spent, not on running costs by

municipalities, but on infrastructure and when, if this illegal

practice, which we heard of from the Minister of Finance, occurs,

will you take steps?


Chairperson, there are lot of things to consider when talking about

the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, MIG; it is not an accurate

answer. One of the issues is that most of these municipalities with

these challenges do not have the capacity to deliver. As the

department, both provincially and nationally, we are intervening to

ensure that the money is well spent.

We are also exploring other measures, because in the past the

department had a Municipal Infrastructure Investment Unit which was

a structure aimed at ensuring that infrastructure is rolled out in

municipalities as expected by the national department. The unit was

abolished, but we are looking for other possibilities of reviving

it. We have realised that MIG cannot be in a position to deal with

the challenges prevailing in municipalities; we are therefore
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 135 of 185

looking at the possibility of a special purpose vehicle which will

be able to roll-out infrastructure.

We have quantified everything across the country and these issues

will be taken up. As an interim measure, the department is ready to

ensure that it assists municipalities with this issue and see to it

that they never occur again. Thank you very much.

Vote No 30 – Public Enterprises – put.

Vote No 31 – Science and Technology – put.

Vote No 32 – Trade and Industry – put.

Vote No 33 – Transport – put.

Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Hon Minister, with regard to the additional

R116 million payment for the transport disaster management grant for

the rehabilitation of infrastructure destroyed by flooding in the

Western Cape in 2008, considering that this was a natural disaster

and was declared so, should this amount not be paid from the

disaster fund?

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, yes the money for this

disaster does come from Transport, unless there is other contingency

funding elsewhere. Once there is a disaster, everybody looks at
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 136 of 185

Transport. For instance, if a road is damaged or a bridge is broken

during a disaster, we can reclaim whatever money is available

elsewhere. As Transport, we only move in as an emergency measure. I

thank you.

Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Hon Minister with regard to Programme 6 for an

additional R144 million allocated as a transfer payment for the

Gautrain Rapid Rail Link grant for inflation and foreign exchange

adjustments, why were these costs not factored in to the initial

contracts under condition of contract price adjustments?

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: In terms of the contract, if the amount

was factored in or there was escalation in terms of inflation, we

are liable for paying. That is what we are doing.

Mr M S F DE FREITAS: I am sorry, Chairperson. This is the last one.

My question is with regard to the departmental revenue of R198

million from transaction fees for vehicle registrations that will be

used for the maintenance of the electronic National Traffic

Information System, commonly known as eNatis. Originally, this fee

was paid to Treasury to offset their extra cost for the system. Why

was this amount not paid to the Department of Transport instead? I

thank you.

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: As the member is aware, we have

introduced the Road Traffic Management Corporation, RTMC. In order
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 137 of 185

for it to function, this amount had to be allocated so that we can

be able to implement our RTMC and be able to go out on the road

safety campaign properly, particularly the demerit system that we

will be introducing next year. All that will depend on the proper

functioning of the RTMC. [Applause.]

Vote No 34 – Water Affairs and Forestry – put.

Vote No 35 – Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries – put.

Mr L L BOSMAN: Chairperson, hon Minster, under Programme No 3,

Agricultural Support Services, a provision was made for an

agricultural disaster management grant of R156,9 million to provide

for disaster management in all nine provinces. In the Government

Gazette of 8 September 2009, a declaration of the provincial state

of drought disaster in the Eastern Cape province, six district

municipalities were declared as disaster areas. The assessment

report estimated a damage of R1,184 billion.

This is only one of a number of drought disaster areas with a

possible total damage, much higher than this figure. How does the

Minister plan to assist communities who suffered losses or are in

need of water with financial support, in the view of the limited

budget provided in this programme, and at what timeframes? I thank

11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 138 of 185


hon member, the state cannot be an insurance policy broker for

farmers. The state cannot substitute insurances for farmers. Our

first prerogative is to get farmers to take out insurance policies

so that they cannot be totally dependent on the state disaster


Where disaster does occur, it is not incumbent on the state to

recoup farmers’ losses. Ours is not to balance out the losses. In

any business you will have losses and you must ensure that you

actually make provision for them. As in the past, you cannot be

totally dependent on the state to pay for all your losses,

particularly when it comes to disasters.

With disaster management, we only refund farmers on production costs

and infrastructure costs on farm settlement disaster management.

When it comes to all farm disaster management, for example, roads

and other infrastructure projects, we are dependent on the other

line function departments, like the Department of Transport and the

Department of Human Settlements to assist in other areas should

there there be disasters.

Our intention is not for agriculture to cover the entire disaster,

but only some areas. I thank you. [Applause.]
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                 PAGE: 139 of 185

Mr L L BOSMAN: Hon Minister, yes I agree with you that there should

be schemes available that must also be assisted by government. But I

just want to point out that I specifically asked this question in

the Eastern Cape, because it was not only farmers who were involved

in the disaster areas, but even the community and poor people, who

don’t have water or resources to recuperate their lands and so on.

I think this is the list that government can do something about, to

look after these people, because they are poor and resource poor. I

thank you.


Chairperson, in my response I did not refer to any particular group.

To me farmers are emerging, smaller, older, medium or commercial

farmers. They are all treated equally when it comes to disaster


In the Eastern Cape, yes, there were six districts declared disaster

areas. Agriculture does not fund anything like roads and housing.

Those areas where affected in more areas than only agriculture. We

only support agriculture-related projects. In the Eastern Cape, we

disaggregated the expense and are convinced that what we are going

to refund to those communities, which are agriculture-related, will

be within our budget. I thank you. [Applause.]
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                PAGE: 140 of 185

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon M N Magazi. I thought

maybe you had pressed the button. Please don’t play with the buttons

then. Stay away from them. I thank you. [Interjections.] It is on

the screen, so I am not just accusing you.

Vote No 43 – Water Affairs – put.

Discussion on Votes and Schedule concluded.

Vote No 1 – Presidency – agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Congress

of the People dissenting).

Vote No 2 – Parliament – agreed to.

Vote No 3 – International Relations and Co-operation – agreed to.

Vote No 4 – Home Affairs – agreed to (Democratic Alliance


Vote No 5 – Public Works – agreed to.

Vote No 6 – Government Communications and Information System –

agreed to.

Vote No 7 – National Treasury – agreed to.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                  PAGE: 141 of 185

Vote No 8 – Public Administration Leadership and Management Academy

– agreed to.

Vote No 9 – Public Service and Administration – agreed to.

Vote No 10 – Public Service Commission – agreed to.

Vote No 11 – Statistics South Africa – agreed to.

Vote No 12 – Arts and Culture – agreed to.

Vote No 13 – Education – agreed to.

Vote No 14 – Health – agreed to (Congress of the People dissenting).

Vote No 15 – Labour – agreed to.

Vote No 16 – Social Development – agreed to.

Vote No 17 – Sport and Recreation South Africa – agreed to.

Vote No 18 – Correctional Services – agreed to.

Vote No 19 – Defence and Military Veterans – agreed to (Democratic

Alliance dissenting).
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                   PAGE: 142 of 185

Vote No 20 – Independent Complaints Directorate – agreed to.

Vote No 21 – Justice and Constitutional Development – agreed to.

Vote No 22 – Police – agreed to (Congress of the People dissenting).

Vote No 23 – Agriculture – agreed to.

Vote No 24 – Communications – agreed to.

Vote No 25 – Environmental Affairs and Tourism – agreed to.

Vote No 26 – Human Settlement – agreed to.

Vote No 27 – Rural Development and Land Reform – agreed to (Congress

of the People dissenting).

Vote No 28 – Minerals and Energy – agreed to.

Vote No 29 – Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs – agreed


Vote No 30 – Public Enterprises – agreed to.

Vote No 31 – Science and Technology – agreed to.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                   PAGE: 143 of 185

Vote No 32 – Trade and Industry – agreed to.

Vote No 33 – Transport – agreed to.

Vote No 34 – Water Affairs and Forestry – agreed to.

Vote No 35 – Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries – agreed to.

Vote No 43 – Water Affairs – agreed to.

Schedule agreed to.


                         (Second Reading debate)

There was no debate.

Bill read a second time.

The House adjourned at 20:17.


11 NOVEMBER 2009                                                                PAGE: 144 of 185


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1.     Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)

          (1)     The JTM in terms of Joint Rule 160(6) classified the following Bill as a section 75 Bill:

                  (a)   Repeal of the Black Administration Act and Amendment of Certain Laws

                        Amendment Bill [B 15 – 2009] (National Assembly – sec 75).

National Assembly

The Speaker

     1.         Membership of Committees

     (1)        The following members have been appointed to the Ad Hoc Committee to conduct co-

                ordinated oversight on service delivery under the theme, “ Working Together to Ensure the

                Delivery of Quality Service to Communities”:


                Borman, Mrs G M

                Boshigo, Ms F D

                Botha, Ms Y
11 NOVEMBER 2009              PAGE: 145 of 185

      Kenye, Mrs T E

      Luthuli, Dr A N

      Matshoba, Mr J M

      Maake, Mr JJ

      Makhubele, Mr Z S

      Mandela, Nkosi Z M D

      Manganye, Ms J

      Mathebe, Mr P M

      Mavunda, Mr D W (Alt)

      Mdaka, Ms N M

      Mdakane, Mr M R

      Mushwana, Mrs F F

      Nchabeleng, Mr M E

      Nelson, Ms W

      Ngwenya-Mabila, Ms PC

      Nhlengethwa, Ms D G

      November, Mrs N T

      Selau, Mr G J

      Segale-Diswai, Ms M J

      Sizani, Mr P S

      Tsenoli, Mr S L

      Williams, Mr A J

11 NOVEMBER 2009              PAGE: 146 of 185

      Doman, Mr W P

      Kopane, Mrs S P

      Motau, Mr S C

      Steyn, Mr A C

      Swathe, Mr M M

      Waters, Mr M

      Wenger, Ms M


      Botha, Mr T

      Kganare, Mr D A

      Mda, Ms A

      Ndude, Ms H N

      Dandala, Dr M H (Alt)


      Cebekhulu, Mr R N

      Dhlamini, Mr B W

      Msimang, Mr C T (Alt)

      Smith, Mr P F


      Gaehler, Mr L B
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                                         PAGE: 147 of 185

           Ntapane, Mr SZ


           Bhoola, Mr R B


           McGluwa, Mr J J (Alt)


           Ditshetelo, Mr I C (Alt)

           FF PLUS

           Groenewald, Mr P

     (2)   Mr S L Tsenoli has been elected Chairperson of the Ad Hoc Committee to conduct co-

           ordinated oversight on service delivery, with effect from 11 November 2009.


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1.    The Speaker and the Chairperson
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                                          PAGE: 148 of 185

     (a) A copy of the recommendations of the Independent Commission for the Remuneration of

           Public Office-Bearers in respect of salaries, allowances and benefits of public office-bearers

           for 2009/2010 was submitted to Parliament on 11 November 2009 in accordance with section

           8(5) of the Independent Commission for the Remuneration of Public Office-Bearers Act,

           1997 (No 92 of 1997).

2.   The Minister of Social Development

     (a) Report of the Central Drug Authority (CDA) for 2008-2009 [RP 252-2009].

National Assembly

1.   The Speaker

     (a)      Policy Imperatives: Parliament 2009 - 2014.

     (b)      Letter from the Minister of Social Development dated 05 November 2009, to the Speaker

              of the National Assembly explaining the delay in the submission of the Annual Report of

              the Central Drug Authority for 2008-2009.


11 NOVEMBER 2009                                                     PAGE: 149 of 185

        In terms of Section 2 (11) (a) (b) of the Prevention and Treatment of Drug Dependency

        Amendment Act (Act, 20 of 1992), the Executive must table the Central Drug Authority

        (CDA) report in the National Assembly.

        In addition hereto, the Public Finance Management Act, Act No. 1 of 1999, as amended,

        requires in terms of section 65 (2) a written explanation by the Executive to be tabled in

        Parliament with reasons for non compliance.

        There was a delay in the finalisation of the CDA Annul Report 2008/09 CDA due to late

        receipts of reports from various national government departments, represented on the

        CDA. The report‟s design and layout took long to be completed by the relevant units of

        the National Department of Social Development (DSD).

        Enclosed herewith is a copy of the 2008/2009 Annual Report for official tabling.

        Accordingly, I humbly appeal to Parliament to accept the CDA Annual Report for

        2008/2009 for tabling in the 4th Parliament and consider an integrated oversight review

        and referral process on this matter.

        Kind regards


        MRS B E E MOLEWA, MP

11 NOVEMBER 2009                                                            PAGE: 150 of 185


National Assembly

1.      Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the

provisional suspension from office of Magistrate CM Dumani, dated 11 November 2009:

The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the report on

provisional suspension of Magistrate C M Dumani, a Magistrate at Graaf Reinet, pending the outcome

of an investigation into his fitness to hold office as a magistrate, as required in terms of section 13(3)

(a) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act no 90 of 1993), reports as follows:

1.      The Committee notes from the report tabled by the Minister for Justice and Constitutional

        Development that the Magistrates Commission resolved on 30 July to recommend that Mr CM

        Dumani be provisionally suspended from office in terms of section 13(3)(a) of the Magistrates

        Act, 1993:

Mr Dumani is alleged on four different occasions to have conducted himself in an unbecoming and

embarrassing manner by stroking the cheek of a cleaner and security officer; tickling the back of the

neck of a cleaner; and sticking his hand between the breasts of the clerk of court. Mr Dumani denies

the allegations.

On 5 March 2009, the Commission resolved to charge Mr Dumani with four counts of misconduct.

The inquiry was set down for 15 May 2009, but did not occur. It was then set down for 5 and 6 August

11 NOVEMBER 2009                                                         PAGE: 151 of 185

On 6 March 2009, the Commission asked Mr Dumani to give reasons why he should not be

provisionally suspended. Mr Dumani‟s legal representative indicated that Mr Dumani did not wish to

make representations regarding his provisional suspension.

2.     In terms of section 13(3)(c) of the Magistrates Act, 1993, Parliament must, as soon as is

       reasonably possible, pass a resolution as to whether or not the provisional suspension of a

       magistrate is confirmed.

3.     Having considered the Commission‟s report on the provisional suspension, the Committee

       recommends that the National Assembly confirm the provisional suspension of Magistrate C M

       Dumani, pending the outcome of an investigation into his fitness to hold office as required in

       terms of section 13(3)(b) of the Magistrates Act, 1993.

Report to be considered.

2.          Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the

provisional suspension from office of Magistrate NE Ndamase, dated 11 November 2009:

The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the report on

the provisional suspension of Magistrate NE Ndamase, a Magistrate at Pretoria, pending the outcome

of an investigation into her fitness to hold office as a magistrate, as required in terms of section

13(3)(a) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act no 90 of 1993), reports as follows:

1.     The Committee notes from the report tabled by the Minister for Justice and Constitutional

       Development that the Magistrates Commission resolved on 29 and 30 July to recommend that
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                                       PAGE: 152 of 185

     Ms NE Ndamase be provisionally suspended from office in terms of section 13(3)(a) of the

     Magistrates Act, 1993:

2.   On 10 November 2009, the Magistrates Commission briefed the Committee on the contents of

     the report: The Commission decided to charge Ms Ndamase with misconduct in terms of

     Regulation 26(1) of the Regulations for Judicial Officers in Lower Courts, 1994. It is of the

     opinion that there is enough prima facie evidence to support the charge(s). There is an ongoing

     process to obtain further evidence. On 29 and 30 July 2009, the Commission resolved to

     recommend that Ms Ndamase be provisionally suspended, pending the outcome of the

     misconduct inquiry. The report and supporting documents give reasons for this


3.   In terms of section 13(3)(c) of the Magistrates Act, 1993, Parliament must, as soon as is

     reasonably possible, pass a resolution as to whether or not the provisional suspension of a

     magistrate is confirmed.

4.   The Committee is of the view that the issues raised by this matter are complex, pointing to

     problems of transformation within the judicial system. It is not helpful to look solely at an

     individual‟s conduct, while ignoring the broader context. Of particular concern to the

     Committee is the „gatekeeping‟ role that language proficiency plays within the justice system,

     and the frustration this engenders. The Committee is aware that there are no „quickfix‟

     solutions but believes that much needs to be done, and urgently, to address this problem.
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                                         PAGE: 153 of 185

5.     As part of its oversight function, the Committee intends to embark on regular visits to our

       courts to gain insight of the problems they grapple with daily. In the first quarter of 2010 the

       Committee will arrange to visit the Pretoria Magistrates Court.

6.     The Committee also intends to engage more closely with the Magistrates Commission to better

       understand its role, as well as the systemic challenges facing our judicial system and possible

       solutions to these. It would be particularly interested in the Commission‟s views on whether it

       has a mediatory or conciliatory role in matters such as these. It urges the Commission to

       explore this possibility in this particular matter.


7.     Having considered the Commission‟s report on the provisional suspension, the Committee

       recommends that the National Assembly does not confirm the provisional suspension of

       Magistrate NE Ndamase.

Report to be considered.

3.         Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the

removal from office of Magistrate TC Oliphant, dated 10 November 2009:

The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the report on

the removal from office of Magistrate TC Oliphant, tabled by the Minister for Justice and
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Constitutional Development in terms of section 13(4)(a) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act 90 of

1993), reports as follows:

1.     The Magistrates Commission resolved on 4 March 2009 to recommend that Ms Oliphant be

       removed from office on the ground of misconduct.

2.     In terms of Regulation 34(1) of the Regulations of Judicial Officers in the Lower Courts, 1994,

       if a Magistrate is absent from office without leave or a valid reason for more than 30 days, he

       or she is deemed to have absconded and is guilty of misconduct.

3.     In terms of section 13(4)(a) the Minister must suspend a Magistrate if the Magistrates

       Commission recommends his or her removal on the ground of misconduct. On 10 March 2009,

       the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development tabled a report on Ms Oliphant‟s

       suspension from Office. A report on the withholding of remuneration of Ms Oliphant was

       tabled on 24 March 2009 in terms of section 13(4A)(b) of the Magistrates Act, 1993.

4.     In terms of section 13(4)(c) of the Magistrates Act, 1993, Parliament must, as soon as is

       reasonably possible, resolve whether to recommend that a Magistrate, who is so suspended, be

       restored to office or not.


5.     Ms Oliphant was alleged to have been absent from office without leave (1) from 25 April 2008

       to 10 November 2008; and (2) from 17 November 2008 to date.
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6.        First period of absence (25 April 2008 – 10 November 2008)

a.        A preliminary investigation was conducted into Ms Oliphant‟s absenteeism and her alleged

          conduct on 7 February 2008 towards Mr Nyembezi, a prosecutor at the court over which she


b.        On 25 September 2008, the Ethics Committee for the Magistrates Commission considered the

          preliminary investigation report. It resolved that Ms Oliphant not be charged with misconduct,

          but that she be asked to appear before it.

c.        At the meeting of the Ethics Committee on 6 November 2008, Ms Oliphant indicated that she

          would resume her duties at Wynberg on Monday 10 November 2008:

     i.      She told the Committee that she had been suffering from major depressive disorder and that

             she had been admitted to a Psychiatric Clinic from 2 to 24 April 2008. She produced a

             medical certificate for this period (2 - 24 April 2008) but did not apply for leave or produce

             medical certificates supporting her absenteeism from office for the period 25 April to 5

             November 2008.

  ii.        Ms Oliphant also informed the Committee that she felt that she was fit to resume the

             functions of a magistrate. The Committee asked that she obtain a written report from her

             medical practitioner confirming that she had recuperated to such an extent that she was able

             to resume her duties as a magistrate.

 iii.        A meeting was scheduled with the relevant Judicial Head, Ms Tongeni, at Wynberg on 20

             November 2008. Ms Oliphant undertook to provide Ms Tongeni with a written report from
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                                         PAGE: 156 of 185

          her medical practitioner, as well submit the outstanding leave forms and medical


 iv.      Ms Oliphant failed to attend the meeting and failed/refused to submit the outstanding leave

          forms. She did not communicate with her Judicial Head of Office in this regard at all and

          attempts to contact her were not successful.

7. Second period of absence from office (17 November 2008 to date)

a.     On 4 December 2008, the Ethics Committee was informed that Ms Oliphant had resumed

       duties at Wynberg on 10 November 2008. She remained present until 14 November 2008, but

       from 17 November 2008 was once more absent from office.

b.     On 5 December 2008, Ms Oliphant was informed in writing that her conduct amounted to

       serious misconduct. She was advised that should she fail to report for duty and or fail to inform

       her Judicial Head of Office of her whereabouts by 17 December 2008, she would be deemed to

       have absconded and that she would have made herself guilty of misconduct. She was also

       advised that this might lead to the Commission recommending to Parliament that she be

       removed from office in terms of section 13(4)(a)(i) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act 90 of


c.     An attempt was made to serve the letter on her personally, but she was not present. The letter

       was left on a chair in the living room through an open window.

d.     On 14 January 2009, two Judicial Quality Assurance Officers, both Magistrates from the

       Pretoria Office, made a final effort to trace Ms Oliphant. They visited her place of residence in
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      Mitchells Plain. The windows were closed and the curtains drawn. They came back later in the

      day, where they found Ms Oliphant and a friend at home. During a 20 minute conversation

      with her, she was asked 3 times why she was not at the office. She did not give any

      explanation. She was also urged to contact her Judicial Head, the Chief Magistrate, Wynberg,

      and to report for duty without delay. To date, she has failed to do so.

Committee’s response

8.    On 26 August 2009, the Magistrate‟s Commission briefed the Portfolio Committee on the

      events that caused it to recommend that Ms Oliphant be removed from office.

9.    At the meeting, the Committee requested that the Commission give Ms Oliphant one more

      opportunity to submit her medical records. The Committee asked the Commission to try once

      more to contact Ms Oliphant, specifically asking her if she wishes to submit any written

      representations regarding her medical situation since April 2008, and to submit any medical

      reports that might substantiate why she had been prevented from resuming her official duties. It

      asked that Ms Oliphant be given 2 weeks to respond, and that the Commission inform the

      Committee of her response, if any.

10.   A letter was sent to Ms Oliphant on 27 August 2009 (she acknowledged receiving the letter),

      but no response has been forthcoming.

11.   Recommendation
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a.      The Portfolio Committee recommends that the National Assembly resolve to recommend that

        Ms Oliphant not be restored to office as a Magistrate in terms of section 13(4)(c) of the

        Magistrates Act, 1993.

Report to be considered.

4.          Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the

upliftment of the provisional suspension from office of Magistrate A Bacharam, dated 10 November


The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the report on

the upliftment of provisional suspension from office of Magistrate A Bacharam, tabled by the Minister

for Justice and Constitutional Development in terms of section 13(3)(b) of the Magistrates Act, 1993

(Act no 90 of 1993) on 17 September 2009, reports as follows:

1.      The Committee notes from the report tabled by the Minister for Justice and Constitutional

        Development that the Magistrates Commission resolved on 7 March 2008 to recommend that

        Ms Bacharam be provisionally suspended from office in terms of section 13(3)(a) of the

        Magistrates Act, 1993. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development provisionally

        suspended Ms Bacharam from office on 16 March 2008.

2.      Ms Bacharam was criminally charged for defeating or obstructing the Administration of

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3.   The Magistrates Commission set down a misconduct inquiry for 30 May 2008. Ms Bacharam‟s

     representative requested that the inquiry be postponed pending the finalisation of the criminal

     case against her.

4.   In terms of section 13(3)(c) of the Magistrates Act, 1993, Parliament must, as soon as is

     reasonably possible, pass a resolution as to whether or not the provisional suspension of a

     magistrate is confirmed: On 20 November 2008 and 27 November 2008, the National

     Assembly and National Council of Provinces respectively resolved to confirm Ms Bacharam‟s

     provisional suspension from the office of Magistrate.

5.   In terms of section 13(3)(f) of the Magistrates Act, 1993, the Magistrate‟s Commission is

     required to report to Parliament on its progress in respect of its inquiry every three months. The

     Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development tabled the necessary progress reports on 10

     March 2009 and on 7 August 2009.

6.   On 13 February 2009, Ms Bacharam was acquitted by the Regional Magistrate‟s Court in Port


7.   After studying a transcription of the court record, the Magistrates Commission believed that it

     would not be able to successfully prove, on a balance of probabilities, misconduct on the part

     of Ms Bacharam. The Commission decided, on 25 August 2009, not to proceed with the

     disciplinary inquiry. On the Commission‟s recommendation, the Minister uplifted the

     provisional suspension on 16 September 2009.
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8.     The Committee, after considering the report before it, and meeting with representatives of the

       Magistrates Commission, agrees with the Minister‟s decision to uplift the suspension.

Report to be considered.

5.     Report of the Portfolio Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs

on the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Amendment Bill [B 57D - 2008] (National

Assembly- sec 76), dated 11 November 2009:

The Portfolio Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, having

considered the subject of the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Amendment Bill

[B 57D- 2008] (National Assembly-sec 76), amended by the National Council of Provinces and

referred to the committee, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

6.     Report of the Portfolio Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs

on the National House of Traditional Leaders Bill [B 56D - 2008] (National Assembly- sec 76), dated

11 November 2009:

The Portfolio Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, having

considered the subject of the National House of Traditional Leaders Bill [B 56D- 2008] (National

Assembly-sec 76), amended by the National Council of Provinces and referred to the committee,

reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

7.          Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the
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Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the

Hong Kong special Administrative Region of the People’s Republic of China Concerning

Surrender of Fugitive Offenders, dated 11 November 2009:

The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the request

for approval by Parliament of the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa

and the Government of the Hong Kong special Administrative Region of the People‟s Republic of

China Concerning Surrender of Fugitive Offenders, recommends that the National Assembly approves

the Agreement.

Report to be considered.

8.     Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the

Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the

Hong Kong special Administrative Region of the People’s Republic of China Concerning Mutual

Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters, dated 11 November 2009:

The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the request

for approval by Parliament of the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa

and the Government of the Hong Kong special Administrative Region of the People‟s Republic of

China Concerning Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters, recommends that the National

Assembly approves the Agreement.

Report to be considered.
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1.     Introduction

Any discussion on national planning starts with South Africa‟s national ideal: the need to create a truly

non-racial, non-sexist, prosperous and democratic society. Towards this end South Africans pursue

equitably shared economic growth, decent jobs and sustainable livelihoods, quality education and

skills, action against poverty and inequality, rural development, improved healthcare, safety and social

cohesion. For National Planning to achieve these goals, a new culture and style of governance would

have to be cultivated.

The South African Government has developed policies and frameworks for poverty alleviation, growth

and development of South Africa for the past fifteen years. It was realised that planning, coordination

across the three spheres of government, implementation, monitoring and evaluation of such policies

remain a challenge. There is no overall long-term vision for the country.

South Africa has medium-term objectives that are specified in the five-year Medium Term Strategic

Framework. Various sectors and departments and spheres of Government do have long term objectives

set out in white papers, strategies, policy frameworks and other frameworks and instruments.

Coordination and joint planning is meant to be facilitated by legislation such as the Development

Facilitation Act, 1995 (Act 67 of 1995), the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Act, 2005 (Act

13 of 2005), the Land-Use Management Bill, guidelines on spatial planning, and ultimately the

Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996 (Act 108 of 1996).
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However, Government lacks an integrated long-term plan, which outlines in specific terms, the kind of

society and economy that is aimed for in 15 years or more. It was established that there has not been

enough systemic effort to ensure that the visions and strategies of Departments, sectors and spheres of

Government cohere with one another. Since the Reconstruction and Development Programme, which

galvanised large parts of our society, there has not been a mobilising vision that is clearly understood

by all sectors of society with a commitment to contribute to its realisation. Efforts to reduce poverty

and roll back extreme inequalities of apartheid had not produced results as expected.

The following include some of the deficiencies in the current planning system:

       There is no agreed vision about the country‟s long-term direction, its ideal objective or the end

        state. No monitoring and evaluation body is established to monitor the progress towards

        achieving an agreed vision, reaching the ideal objective or the „end state‟.

       There is a tendency towards „short-termism‟ and voluntarism that characterised activities of

        government, state institutions and entities, business communities and civil society.

       Government still faces serious challenges in intergovernmental coordination, despite

        significant advances over the past decade.

       An agency is needed that will authoritatively drive planning, monitoring and evaluation and

        institutional improvements. This mechanism should have the ability to make decisions, where

        limited resources and policies are contested.

Policy imperatives, such as growth and development, strengthening institutions, nation-building and

the establishment of a developmental state are long term projects. A single term of government is too

short a time to complete building a prosperous, non-racial, non-sexist and democratic South Africa,

where all citizens can share in the fruits of opportunity. This has given rise to the need for government
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                                            PAGE: 164 of 185

to establish a more long term integrated planning mechanism and develop systems for monitoring and

evaluation of the implementation of policies.

There has been no agency to drive planning and overall monitoring and evaluation from the centre of

government. Programmes are not articulated within a coherent spatial frame of reference. This is in

marked contrast to those developing countries that have grown rapidly in the past three decades.

Long term planning has been the mainstay for the success of several countries in the international

system. Comparative studies from Malaysia, South Korea, Brazil, India, Botswana, Tunisia and

Nigeria, amongst others, indicate that these countries faced similar conditions as South Africa, and

have succeeded in improving the lives of their citizens by developing long-term plans, within a context

of global uncertainty.

Most of these countries took a conscious decision to undertake and implement long-term strategic

planning in order to set a coherent vision, backed by clear and measurable programmes and targets.

The emphasis on long-term planning did not mean that medium-term and short-term planning were

less important. The aim was to situate the short-term and medium-term plans within a longer term

horizon, of approximately 10 – 30 years.

Critical lessons from the international experience include the following:

      Strategic planning and better management of development processes require quality institutions

       that give leadership, including resolving problems that are barriers to inclusive growth and

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      The systems, institutions and processes of strategic planning vary considerably from country to

       country. They are informed by the history, socio-economic conditions and culture of each


      Success in ensuring sustained growth and development depends largely on mobilising the

       public service and all of society behind a long term vision.

      The quality of strategic plans and success in their implementation depend on the quality of

       policies and the strategic choices made.

      There should be a recognised institutional centre (at the apex of government) for nationwide

       planning which advanced strategic, political, organisational and technical capabilities for

       successful implementation.

      Administrative and technical support to planning can be located within the apex of government

       or in semi-autonomous development institutions.

A generic lesson from studies undertaken is that planning is not a panacea, and does not by itself

guarantee good outcomes. In some countries, planning had resulted in adverse outcomes. South Africa,

while being cognisant of these international lessons, must institute its national Planning within the

unique conditions that prevail in South Africa.

Good development planning outcomes require solid institutions, a highly capable state, strong

relationships between the major social forces, and a clear focus on the strategic objective across the

board. It is critical that the institutions and the systems that support long term planning should take into

consideration the country‟s historical, political, social and economic context. Long term planning will

then ensure that society‟s expectations of better service delivery from the state, an effective

government and a better life for all are realised.
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2.       Parliament’s constitutional responsibility to consider the Green Paper

Since Parliament is constitutionally mandated as a forum for public participation on matters of national

interest; the Green Paper: National Strategic Planning (Green Paper), as a discussion document was

considered in a manner that accommodated public interest and allowed for national consultation. It is

recognised that Parliament is not the author of the Green Paper, and thus cannot dictate to the

Executive the terms of reference. Parliament, in this instance, is a representative of the people, from

whom consultation has been sought.

2.1      Powers of the Ad Hoc Committee

The Ad hoc Committee on the Green Paper was established by resolution of the National Assembly to

consider and report on the Green Paper.

Ad hoc committees are established by resolution of the Assembly to perform a specific task. The

resolution establishing the committee must specify the task assigned to the committee, and set time

frames for any steps in performing the task, and the completion of the task (National Assembly rule

214 – 216).

National Assembly Committees have the following general powers, subject to the Constitution,

Legislation, National Assembly Rule 138 and House resolutions:

      1. to summon any person to appear before it to give evidence on oath or affirmation, or to produce


      2. to receive petitions, representations or submissions from interested persons or institutions.

      3. to conduct public hearings.
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      4. to permit oral evidence on petitions, representations, submissions and any other matter before

          the committee.

      5. to determine their own procedure.

      6. to meet at a venue determined by them, which may be beyond the seat of Parliament.

      7. to meet on any day and at any time.

      8. to confer with other parliamentary committees.

The Ad hoc Committee ceases to exist when it has completed its task and reported to the Assembly.

2.2       Objectives of the Ad Hoc Committee’s interaction on the Green Paper

The Green Paper is a draft policy document that the Presidency is consulting stakeholders on. The

objectives of the Ad hoc Committee is to:

         Provide a platform for institutional debate on the Green Paper.

         Allow public comment and broad consideration of the Green Paper.

         Evaluate the matters of convergence and divergence, raised by stakeholders.

         Report on matters raised that would require clarity and refinement in the Green Paper.

         Make a recommendation to the National Assembly whether it should support the Green paper

          on National Strategic Planning or not.

         Propose recommendations to the Executive to refine the Green Paper on National Strategic


2.3       Procedure followed by the Ad Hoc Committee
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The Minister in the Presidency for the National Planning Commission tabled the Green Paper in

Parliament on 4 September 2009, as a means to consult with Parliament on the establishment of a

National Planning Commission. The Ad Hoc Committee on the Green Paper on National Strategic

Planning was established on 8 September 2009. The Green Paper was referred to the Ad Hoc

Committee for consideration and report.

The Committee met on a regular basis in order to meet its reporting directives. The Committee invited

the Minister in the Presidency for National Planning Commission to brief it on the Green Paper. As a

result of far-reaching proposals made in the Green Paper, the Committee invited submissions from the


The Committee received 27 written submissions and requested that the 29 submissions received by the

Presidency be forwarded to it. In total, the Committee processed 56 written submissions. The

Committee then grouped the submissions according to the sectors they represented, in order to allow

for a diverse yet balanced input from various stakeholders.

The Committee then invited stakeholders from the various sectors to make an oral submission on the

Green Paper. The stakeholders that were invited to make oral submissions were from the following

sectors: Labour, Business, Mining, Law, Disability, Environment and Rural Development. The

stakeholders invited to make an oral submission were:

         Dr. Christo Becker

         Prof. Harald Winkler

         Aids Law Project

         Law Society
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                                           PAGE: 169 of 185

      Business Unity South Africa (BUSA)

      Chamber Of Mines

      Johannesburg Disability Forum

      Congress of South African Trade Unions (COSATU)

The Law Society was unable to make an oral submission due to time constraints and prior

commitments. The Minister in the Presidency: National Planning Commission was afforded an

opportunity to respond to the submissions the Committee received. The Committee then consolidated

its position on the Green Paper, in preparation for its report to the National Assembly.

3. Overview of the Green Paper: National Strategic Planning

The Green Paper identifies a need to develop a vision for South Africa, from which a long term plan

will be formulated. It also motivates for the establishment of a National Planning Commission and a

Ministerial Committee on Planning.

The Green Paper sets out a draft proposal for the establishment of several bodies that will work

together to formulate long-term plans. These bodies will also play a role in coordinating government

departments, state institutions and bodies, civil society, business, labour, experts and other

stakeholders. They will also be responsible for formulating measurable indicators for monitoring the

implementation of a long-term plan and allow for public participation in the planning process.

The Minister in the Presidency: National Planning Commission will be responsible for coordinating

the planning process and will be politically accountable for delivering certain outputs. The Ministry in

the Presidency (the Planning Ministry) will contain the secretariat to the National Planning
11 NOVEMBER 2009                                                          PAGE: 170 of 185

Commission (the Commission), which will support the Commission‟s work and do background work

the Commission needs to fulfil its objectives. The Planning Ministry will also be responsible for

ensuring that the plan is factored into the planning of departments, spheres of government and relevant

state agencies. The Green Paper is premised on the understanding that long term planning exists within

state departments, spheres of government and entities.

The Planning Ministry will be tasked with focusing government towards the achievement of clear

goals and ensuring synergy across sectors and spheres. The Planning Ministry will undertake its

mandate in collaboration with the Ministry in the Presidency for Performance Monitoring and


The Green Paper identified six key functions/requirements of the Planning Ministry. They are:

      The Minister should lead government‟s interaction with the Commission and social partners in

       developing a common national strategic vision, and outline the emanating targets and processes

       that relevant stakeholders will undertake to reach the targets formulated.

      The Planning Ministry will be the centre of coordinating government‟s planning efforts across

       the spheres of government and relevant state agencies.

      It should coordinate national government‟s interaction on matters of strategic planning with

       other structures of government:

           o In integrating the input of other spheres into the national plan.

           o In the iteration that will be necessary in the development of „sub-national‟ strategic


           o In the adoption and operationalisation of the national plan.

           o In strengthening and enhancing government‟s capacity to do long-term planning.
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        The Planning Commission would require administrative and technical capacity, by a secretariat

         in the Presidency. The secretariat will conduct and coordinate research and align planning

         capacities across government. It will liaise with its administrative and technical counterparts in

         the departments, provinces, municipalities and state agencies.

        It should develop networks of knowledge and expertise in quasi-state research centres,

         academic institutions, civil society and private sector agencies.

        It should also have systems for interaction with the budgeting process, state-owned enterprises

         and development finance institutions to ensure the plans developed are in line with national

         strategies and that resources are optimally employed for national long-term development.

The Green Paper also proposes alternative planning entities that could be considered for establishment.

However, a National Planning Commission located in the Presidency is motivated for, given the

current skills levels in the country, existing research institutions and bodies; and anticipated costs of

establishing alternative planning entities.

The Green Paper also outlines the function of Cabinet in the planning and implementation process, the

responsibility of other spheres of government in intergovernmental planning, the role of Parliament

and the link of monitoring and evaluation function in the Presidency. The Green Paper also states that

spatial planning will be undertaken in order to correct imbalances of the past.

4.       Issues highlighted from submissions received by the Committee through its public

         participation process

4.1.     Convergence on Principles
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In all submissions and oral evidence presented to the Committee, there was an absolute convergence

on the Constitutional imperative for co-ordination, inter-relatedness and co-operation, as stated in

Section 41 (1)(h) of the Constitution, which states that all spheres of government and organs of state

within each sphere must “co-operate with one another in mutual trust and good faith by-

       (i) fostering friendly relations;

       (ii) assisting and supporting one another;

       (iii) informing one another of, and consulting one another on, matters of common interest;

       (iv) co-ordinating their actions and legislation with one another”

There is unanimity on the need for long term sustainable planning with a clear framework against

which to measure the performance of the State, and around which to co-ordinate the myriad of plans,

programmes and projects by spheres of government, state departments, state-owned enterprises, and

even society in general.

There was agreement that, even though government has successfully established sound and democratic

institutions in the last 15 years, which have created a stable economic platform to effectively respond

to challenges of transformation of the society, there are still more challenges that require better

planning and coordination of policies and programmes that address unacceptably high levels of

unemployment and retrenchments; high levels of inequality in the society and skewed economic

opportunities, with devastating poverty. Therefore, there is a need for a coherent and sustainable long-

term plan to guide short-term interventions. It was found that all submissions concurred on the need to

establish a national planning body.
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In terms of collective responsibility there was no dispute that Cabinet remained ultimately responsible

for national planning; and no mechanism for national planning could override the responsibility of


These areas of convergence indicate a fundamental agreement on principles in pursuit of our national

ideal for a non-racial, non-sexist prosperous and democratic society. This agreement is further

underpinned by broad agreement on a National Planning Commission which should produce a

programme and plan around which all South Africans should unify.

4.2.   Areas requiring Clarification

4.2.1 Titles for Minister

Two titles for the Minister in the Presidency: National Planning Commission are used interchangeably

in the Green Paper. They are „Minister for National Planning in the Presidency‟ and „Minister in the

Presidency responsible for National Planning Commission‟. The usage of the titles for the same

Minister does create confusion on whether a separate ministry will be created or whether the Minister

will remain within the Presidency, and be responsible for national planning in a specific capacity, in

relation to other Ministers.

4.2.2 Name of the Commission

The National Planning Commission is a confusing name for the Ministry in the Presidency that will be

responsible for formulating the national long-term planning. The term „commission‟ usually is used for
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a body that is not part of government, an independent body or a body that is established for a specific

purpose/task. After the task is complete, the Commission will dissolve.

If the Ministry is based in the Presidency, its name should make reference to the Presidency, as the

Ministry in the Presidency for Performance Monitoring and Evaluation does. This should clear up

confusion about its placement within government, and the legitimacy of the office.

4.2.3 Appointment of Commissioners

The Green Paper also made some indications that there will be appointments of National

Commissioners, but the process which will be followed to appoint Commissioners has not been

outlined clearly. It was an observation of the Committee that most of the submissions have suggested

the involvement of certain individuals from various sectors which will bring more experience and

inputs rather than only inputs and experience from academics and intellectuals.         It is therefore

important for the Green Paper to take into account these factors moving forward.

The Green Paper is silent about a number of matters regarding Commissioners and their appointment.

These include:

      some description of the range of skills commissioners would represent;

      the role commissioners would play in the Commission;

      how many commissioners would be required, and how many commissioners would be full-time

       or part-time employed in the National Planning Commission;

      how long would the term of commissioners be; and

      what their powers and status would be.
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4.2.4. Role of Parliament

Parliament‟s role in the Green Paper is envisioned to be consistent with its current constitutional role

of oversight of the Executive. Parliament also provides, through the National Assembly, a national

platform for matters of national interest to be considered. Parliament may create a portfolio or joint

committee which would conduct oversight, consider and interrogate long term plans formulated and

the achievement of measurable outcomes of the plan. However, the placement of the National Planning

Commission within the Presidency, or in Cabinet, or independent of the Executive will have

implications for the type of parliamentary entity that would be established to conduct oversight of the


Apart from Parliament‟s oversight and legislative role, it should be noted that Parliament plays a role

in appointment of commissioners to several statutory bodies and boards. Parliament has received

nominations and applications; evaluated and interviewed short-listed candidates; and made

recommendations for the President‟s consideration.

4.2.5. Need for a White Paper

The title of the Green Paper creates confusion of whether a white paper process will result. When

Government was reconstituted after the national elections of 2009, several new government

departments were created, without a green paper or white paper process. Some confusion exists as to

why the National Planning Commission requires a green paper process, and whether a white paper

process and legislative establishment of the National Planning Commission will take place.
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The Minister in the Presidency: National Planning Commission has indicated that the green paper

process was undertaken in order to receive submissions on the need for national planning. The Green

Paper is a tool for consultation on the establishment of a body that should be formed to undertake

national planning. It seems reasonable that given the wide, robust debate enjoyed by the Green Paper,

the purpose of consultation has been achieved.

5.     Structural questions to be answered

5.1    Status of the National Planning Commission

The Green Paper is not clear about the establishment of the National Planning Commission (NPC) as

an advisory body or as part of Government. The shape the planning body will take will have

implications for its success, powers and efficacy. Whether it will be established as a statutory body, an

advisory body, a ministry within the Presidency, a ministry in the Executive, or a constitutionally

established body will bear implications for its powers, legitimacy, responsibilities and accountability.

From the Committee‟s interactions it emerged that the NPC is proposed as a new entity in the array of

government institutions. It is neither a constitutionally-established independent institution, nor a

government department. Its establishment is meant to assist government in providing overall

integration of planning; but also to galvanise and unite the nation behind a single vision and long-term

plan. In this respect, Parliament could provide a national platform for public participation in the

formation and support of a national vision and objectives, in-line with its constitutional responsibility.

The Green Paper states that:
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      “Guided by a strategic vision and plan, society will more effectively unite in action. The

      proposed planning system, processes and structures are meant to help achieve such united

      action. Attached to strategic planning, it is argued, should be principles to guide

      coordination and integration of government‟s work and indeed the efforts of society at


With the interplay of these roles, the NPC is at best advisory to the Executive and consists of the best

expertise and experience from society. The NPC should also create capacity for the state to plan, but

will be free of the day-to-day details and imperatives of the state and political parties. There has been

convergence around the conception that there is need for a National Planning Commission.

5.2       Role of the Ministry

To ensure a coherent set of products from the NPC, a Minister or Ministry in the Presidency, with the

President as the ultimate custodian of policy, must play a role in guiding the NPC, since the President

is the conveyor of the Executive mandate, and would be responsible for communication between the

Executive and the NPC. All of these are at the service of the core activity of producing a national

vision and to drive National Planning.

The core role of the Presidency‟s planning function is the preparation of the three key products of the

planning cycle:

         The long term product (National Strategic Vision)

         The medium term product (Medium Term Strategic Framework) and the short term product

          (Programme of Action)
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Another core activity will be to initiate focussed reflection by the executive and/or society at large on

major areas of government work. Specific areas of policy research would be identified – mainly the

kinds of issues that are key drivers to the nation‟s development trajectory, that have major macro-

social implications and that are therefore critical for long-term planning. The Presidency will ensure

monitoring of trends in these areas as well as coordination and leadership in their management.

5.3    Relationship: Planning and Monitoring and Evaluation

The issue of monitoring and evaluation as a separate process from planning remains a concern for the

Committee. The Green Paper was tabled separately from the monitoring and evaluation policy

document. Separate public participation was undertaken on the Green Paper, which excluded the

Monitoring and Evaluation policy, yet the two documents complement each other.

All the deliberations of the Ad Hoc Committee speak not only to the complementarity of the Planning

function and the functions of performance monitoring and evaluation, but also to the inseparability of

the two sets of functions. The implementations of the NPC, and the brief given to it, must ensure that

the development of a national vision and plan is subject to the imperative of measurability, in order to

facilitate structured interaction between the two Ministers in the Presidency. Performance monitoring

and evaluation must be able to turn vision and plan into milestones and indicators so that South

Africans can experience a better life, as envisaged in the policy imperatives of government.

5.4    Relationship: Planning and line-function departments

The Green Paper should ensure that the roles and responsibilities of the National Planning Commission

in relation to line departments are well defined. The essence of several submissions received was that
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the National Planning Commission would encroach into other line departments‟ mandates. Although

its mandate is to ensure the formulation of a plan, coordination and communication amongst

government departments on the national strategic plan; the implementation of the plans would still be

done by line departments, and they will still be expected to conduct their own planning in line with the

national planning body and its products after acceptance by Cabinet.

5.5    Relationship: NPC, NEDLAC and other established bodies

NEDLAC has been regarded as a body that provides a platform for Business, Labour and Government

to discuss and negotiate micro and macro issues. Clarity was required on the issue of how NEDLAC

and other major stakeholders were to play a role. The establishment of the NPC should not encroach

on the responsibilities of these bodies, but would seek support and consensus on matters related to long

term planning, while bodies like NEDLAC continue their given role.

5.6    Public Consultation

Planning will require various inputs from various sectors and any perceived exclusion may imply that

various stakeholders, in whose name planning is done, will be excluded from the process. The views of

Labour, Business and other planners should be taken into account to ensure the balance between all

market forces and government planning.

The Green Paper suggests the “buy-in” from the public but should be more explicit about how it will

solicit the views of civil society. Parliament could play its role in providing a platform for society to

shape matters of a vision for South Africa and a long-term plan.
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5.7    Other Spheres of Government

The Green Paper explicitly states that it would not undertake micro-planning. The issue of

implementation of strategic plans remained a challenge in government, and should be taken into

account in ensuring the effective and well co-ordinated implementation of national planning.

The Green Paper begins to address the problems of duplication and inefficient services in government.

National government departments will still be expected to conduct their own planning, in line with the

national planning body. Other spheres of government will also be required to fulfil their constitutional

role of ascribing to the national plan that will be formulated; in a way that allows unity and coherence

across the three spheres of government, as envisioned in chapter three of the Constitution, 1996.

The challenge of capacity in local government and at provincial levels was raised and the need to

empower local and provincial government in order to achieve the goals and objectives was

emphasised. The concern was also raised with regard to the Green Paper being silent about the role of

the Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs and Municipal Integrated

Development Plans (IDPs) which would need to be addressed.

6.     Content areas to be considered

The Committee received substantial inputs on a variety of content matters, which supported the need

for national planning. These areas included planning for Climate Change to be factored into the work

of all government departments to anticipate the impact on energy, water, agriculture, the environment,

and other aspects of life in South Africa. Development was also proposed to take place within a spatial

framework, and the needs of people with disabilities were raised for consideration in the formulation
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of a national plan. The recognition of rural development was also put forward for consideration in

broader economic development and planning.

Other inputs of content reflected the devastating impact of current global economic challenges on the

South Africa economy, the livelihoods of people and the deepening of poverty and inequality.

It was not the primary task of the Ad Hoc Committee to pronounce on matters of content. However, as

the Committee‟s public hearings revealed, the need for planning, integration and co-ordination should

take into consideration the allocation of scarce resources, frugal exercise of choices, and steadfast

implementation of programmes.

All of the submissions received strengthened the Green Paper‟s central thrust, that South Africa needs

a National Planning Commission.

7.     Developing conceptual clarity

In the submissions and presentations to the Ad Hoc Committee, there were some fears that an absence

of conceptual agreement on key concepts that relate to the planning process – policy, plan, co-

ordination, implementation, strategic objectives, operational work, etc. could lead to undue inter-

changeability of such concepts, and in turn, lead to duplication, usurpation or neglect of tasks and

responsibilities. The Ad Hoc Committee, having examined the usage of these concepts, believe that the

Green Paper can be more consistent in the use of these concepts and believe that Section 5 of the

Green Paper lays the basis for this, and would eliminate undue fears and suspicions.

The following paragraph from the Green Paper is particularly useful:
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      “The distinction between plans and policies varies in different contexts. In some contexts, a

      plan is a detailed account of how to implement a policy – the latter deriving from electoral

      mandates and ensuing choices of the Executive and/or Legislatures. In this context, planning

      means translating policies into long-, medium-, and short- term objectives, prioritizing the

      objectives, and sequencing implementation”.

This, in the main, should guide the critical relationships between various concepts.

In addition, the Green Paper uses of the following metaphor to describe the planning process and to

guide the critical inter-relationships that will make it succeed: “… Governance consists of a continuum

of related activities which feed into one another:

    policy development

    strategic and operational planning

    resource allocation

    implementation

    performance monitoring and evaluation”

If this governance continuum is understood and creatively applied, then matters which may give rise

either to fears, suspicion or confusion should be left to the Executive for resolution. These include the

relationship between General Planning and Economic Planning, areas of possible duplication and

overlap of functions and roles, the final management of trade-offs, the ultimate influence of experts

and the assertion of government‟s mandate.

It is in the exercise of the role of the Executive that the primacy of Cabinet will be expressed.
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8.     Evaluation of areas of convergence and debate

Consensus was reached by all parties that there is a need for long-term planning. The Green Paper

advocates for the establishment of an entity that would undertake long-term planning. The Green Paper

is also a consultative document, in that it asks for comment on what it proposes.

The Committee gave due consideration to the input provided by the Minister in the Presidency:

National Planning Commission, all submissions received on the Green Paper and the Green Paper

itself. There were matters that required further clarity in the Green Paper, and conceptual areas that

required clarity. Structural questions that will require further engagements and fundamental issues

should be clarified in order to give all stakeholders the same understanding of the national strategic


The Committee was pleased with the complete convergence in principle: the need for national

planning through the National Planning Commission would present South Africans with a vision

around which to unite and a plan around which all South Africans must work.

The Committee was further pleased with the robust debate of the matters contained in the Green Paper.

The Committee saw its role as being a platform to reconcile differences, and seek clarity about the

strategic objectives set out in the Green Paper. Where necessary, the Committee also raised areas that

the Executive should address in the implementation of the process outlined in the Green Paper.

9.     Conclusion
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The Committee undertook its constitutional responsibility to provide a national platform for public

participation on the Green Paper, by inviting written and oral submissions and hosted public hearings.

It became clear that there is a general consensus on the need to establish a unifying planning body

which would coordinate and advance policy direction and priorities of government in the long term.

The concerns raised by the public, organisations and stakeholders have been taken into consideration

during the Committee‟s deliberations on the Green Paper. Some of these matters raised required


Although the paper on Monitoring and Evaluation was tabled separately from the Green Paper on

National Strategic Planning, the two processes proposed could not be expected to function independent

from each other.

A trade-off existed between meeting short-term requirements for establishing a Commission and

addressing long-term intergenerational and infrastructure challenges.

The President maintains the prerogative to select the Executive, and create government departments

and structures to support the policy imperatives. The Committee appreciated the consultation that was

sought from Parliament on the Green Paper. Given the time constraints the Committee had not been

able to exhaust all concerns raised in its public participation process.

10.     Recommendations

Based on the report, the Ad Hoc Committee on the Green Paper for National Strategic Planning

recommends that:
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      Parliament should support the Green Paper: National Strategic Planning and the National

       Planning Commission. The primacy of Cabinet should also be supported.

Additionally, the following recommendations are made to the Executive:

      A consultation process should be embarked on to clarify matters such as the appointment and

       role of Commissioners. Clarity should be provided on the role and responsibility of Cabinet

       Ministers, in relation to the National Planning Commission.

      The Minister in the Presidency: National Planning Commission should clarify the process to be

       undertaken in the appointment of Commissioners, as envisaged in the Green Paper: National

       Strategic Planning.

      A pronouncement should be made on whether a white paper process will ensue.

      Consistency and a common understanding should be ensured in the usage of concepts such as

       Policy, Planning, Co-ordination, and Implementation; in order to prevent inter-changeability

       that results in undue confusion.

      To structure the relationship between the National Planning Commission and the Performance

       Monitoring and Evaluation functions so as to ensure complementarity, and the implementations

       and measurement of the same objectives across government.

      Consideration should be made on the role of Parliament to provide a national platform for

       public participation

      Consideration should be made on a proposed role for Parliament to recommend nominations

       for the appointment of Commissioners to the National Planning Commission.

Report to be considered.

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