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WEDNESDAY, 11 NOVEMBER 2009
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
The House met at 16:12.
The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe
a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Ms S P KOPANE: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on
the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House –
(1) debates the need for a coherent food security policy as a
matter of urgency, considering that scientists predict that
40% to 50% of undernourished people are expected to be living
in sub-Saharan Africa by 2080, and the agricultural yields
may decrease by as much as 50% by 2020.
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Ms H LAMOELA: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the
next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House-
(1) debates the impact of wasteful expenditure in various
government departments and the serious impacts it has on
NELSON MANDELA DAY
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move without
That the House–
(1) notes with great appreciation the approval by the United
Nations of naming 18 July Nelson Mandela International Day;
(2) further notes that Nelson Mandela Day has already been
declared an annual community work day for the cultivation of
ubuntu values and principles that our icon, Nelson Mandela,
worked for and lived by;
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(3) believes that Mandela’s dedication to progressive values of
human and social solidarity without regard to race, class and
gender will continue to guide us in our efforts to create a
nonracial, nonsexist, united, democratic and prosperous
society in which the value of all citizens is measured by our
(4) recognises that President Mandela’s commitment to progressive
values is encapsulated in the words of Lord Khem, an African
sage, who says “... the Light that is God resides in each and
every one of us ... ” and further says to us, “Thou art the
Light that shine upon others ... ”;
(5) further recognises that our icon, Nelson Mandela, has been the
light that shines upon others; and
(6) supports and joins President Jacob Zuma in welcoming the
recognition by the UN of Nelson Mandela Day and encourages the
peoples and nations of the world to recognise the power within
themselves to do something to improve the quality of life of
others in celebration of Nelson Mandela’s International Day.
ANNIVERSARY OF THE SIGNING OF THE ARMISTICE
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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move
That the House–
(1) notes that today, at the 11th hour on the 11th day of the 11th
month, marked the 91st anniversary of the signing of the
Armistice on 11 November 1918, to signal the end of World War
(2) further notes that at 11:00 on 11 November 1918 the guns of
the Western Front fell silent after more than four years of
(3) commemorates not only all those men and women who were killed
during the war, but all those who have fallen in the many
tragic and often devastating conflicts that have occurred
throughout the world since then; and
(4) honours those who sacrificed themselves in these conflicts by
wearing artificial poppies in remembrance of their sacrifices.
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AFRICAN PRESIDENT OF THE YEAR AWARD 2009
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move without
That the House–
(1) notes with admiration and excitement the news that President
Jacob Zuma has been chosen as Africa’s finest leader and has
had the prestigious African President of the Year Award 2009
bestowed on him on Tuesday, 10 November 2009, at the African
Consciousness Media Leadership Awards ceremony in
(2) further notes that the award, founded by the African
Consciousness Media and the Kenneth Kaunda Foundation,
recognises achievement and serves to honour African leaders;
(3) believes that the award is one of the instruments used on our
continent to promote good governance and to foster economic
integration and development;
(4) further believes that this award will help remind African
leaders of their responsibilities to the people, as true
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leaders are guided by the needs and the collective wisdom of
the people, and this award should, therefore, not be about
status or prestige, but service and sacrifice; and
(5) congratulates President Zuma for winning the award for his
outstanding leadership, humility, dedication and commitment to
serve and listen to the people of South Africa and Africa, and
his efforts for a better life for all.
CELEBRATION OF INTERNATIONAL DAY FOR THE ELIMINATION OF VIOLENCE
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move
That the House-
(1) notes that on 25 November 2009 the international community
will celebrate the International Day for the Elimination of
Violence Against Women as adopted at the 54th session of the
United Nations General Assembly in December 1999;
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(2) further notes that the origin of the date 25 November goes
back to 1960, when three Mirabal sisters from the Dominican
Republic, also known as the Unforgettable Butterflies, were
violently assassinated for their political activism;
(3) recognises that violence against women and girls is a problem
of pandemic proportions and that the legal systems and
community attitudes add to the trauma violated women and girls
go through on a daily basis;
(4) further recognises that this pandemic is not only physical and
mental violence against women and children, but includes human
and child trafficking and sexual exploitation;
(5) acknowledges that, although every effort is being made to
eliminate violence against women and girls, statistics show
that more women and children are being violated on a daily
(6) commits itself to ensure that we will continue our efforts to
ensure that violence against women and children is eliminated,
and that women and children who have been violated are given
the support they require.
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CELEBRATION OF WORLD DIABETES DAY
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House –
(1) notes that 14 November marks the celebration of World Diabetes
Day which is led by the International Diabetes Federation;
(2) further notes that there are currently approximately
6,5 million South Africans living with diabetes;
(3) further notes that diabetes can be managed and people who are
well informed about the illness are able to adapt their eating
habits to the demands of diabetes; and
(4) calls upon all South Africans to observe World Diabetes Day
and play an active role in promoting healthier lifestyles.
MOTION OF CONDOLENCE
(The late Comrade Ronnie Press)
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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move
That the House –
(1) notes with profound sadness the passing away of Comrade Ronnie
Press on 28 October 2009, in Bristol, England;
(2) recalls that Comrade Ronnie joined the Congress of Democrats
in 1953, played an active role in Cosatu, the ANC, Umkhonto we
Sizwe and the SACP, and also served as Secretary of the
Textile Workers’ Industrial Union;
(3) remembers that comrade Ronnie, alongside Nelson Mandela and
others, was amongst those comrades charged with high treason
in the famous 1956 treason trial and after the trial, went
into exile in the United Kingdom where he continued to assist
in operations against the apartheid state and was instrumental
in the development of the Bristol Anti-Apartheid Movement;
(4) further remembers that Comrade Ronnie was a trained chemical
engineer and has contributed immensely to the struggle by
providing much – needed technical expertise and helped to
smuggle equipment and weapons into South Africa and was
involved in the movement’s technical committee which created a
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variety of devices that were used in operations against the
apartheid state; and
(5) conveys its condolences to the Press family and friends, the
ANC, the SACP and Cosatu.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE
ON MEDIUM-TERM BUDGET POLICY STATEMENT
There was no debate.
The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved:
That the Report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS
ON MEDIUM-TERM BUDGET POLICY STATEMENT
There was no debate.
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The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved:
That the Report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
DEBATE ON MEDIUM-TERM BUDGET POLICY STATEMENT
Mr T A MUFAMADI: Deputy Speaker, hon members and Ministers present
will recall that on 27 October 2009, the Minister of Finance
complied with section 28 of the Public Finance Management Act, which
obligates him and his department to present to the House a multiyear
budget projection. The purpose of this projection is to give
certainty and predictability to the country’s finances and indicate
its sustainability, particularly in terms of revenue and expenditure
patterns and, most importantly, in terms of the macroeconomic
outlook that seeks to locate our country’s place and space in the
The relevant committees responsible for finances in this House were
assigned to process the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement and
recommend and report back to this House. On behalf of the Standing
Committee on Finance, allow me to say that it is an honour for us in
the committee to be part of a team from this Parliament, entrusted
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with the task of overseeing the processes and management of our
economy and its finances.
I am therefore pleased and privileged to present the committee’s
report and recommendations, which I will deal with later in my
We need to submit, upfront, that the committee had to perform its
duties within a very short space of time, given the busy schedule of
our parliamentary work. Nonetheless, the committee managed to
receive substantive comments and very useful inputs from businesses,
organised labour and respectable economists affiliated to reputable
In processing its work, the committee reflected on the following
important topics: the state of the economy; the economic policy
outlook; fiscal and monetary policies; spending priorities; and
The 2009 main Budget, like many budgets over the whole world, was
formulated under very severe economic conditions and in an
environment that could be described as being hostile towards the
poor and emerging economies, through no fault of their own.
It is not my intention to dwell much on the historical deficiencies
of our macroeconomic challenges. However, it must be said that the
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Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement and its recommendations are
being debated under slightly improved economic conditions compared
to six months ago. There are signs of cautious hope of an economic
recovery, which means the country’s national framework response to
the global crisis is beginning to yield positive results. However,
we must warn that it is not yet time to celebrate. The projected
economic growth, that would suggest the roll-overs of yesteryear, is
not yet in sight.
Our work as parliamentarians is clearly defined under these current
economic challenges. We are called upon, through our various
standing and portfolio committees, to monitor vigorously expenditure
patterns in government departments and parastatals, and support
Operation Clean Audit – the courageous effort by the Minister of
Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs to improve service
delivery and accountability at local government level.
In terms of our economic recovery, this can only be realised if
proper and sound economic policies, with better co-ordination
between all spheres of government, are implemented, monitored and
evaluated within the context of a coherent and sustainable plan co-
ordinated from a central point - in this instance, the Presidency.
We have noted that government has provided support to several key
sectors of the economy through development and finance institutions,
while simultaneously enabling economic adjustment. Development
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Finance Institutions, DFIs, have assisted in boosting public sector
infrastructure and investments, without which the much celebrated
2010 Fifa World Cup activities and 2010 legacy projects would have
Before I submit the committee’s recommendation it is critical that
we explain how we see the steps that South Africa is taking to
support its recovery plan through the Medium-Term Budget Policy
Statement proposals in the current global crisis.
Firstly, we need to commend the Minister and his team for protecting
the key priority areas outlined in the state of the nation address.
These are: creation of decent jobs and protection of existing jobs;
investment in public and economic infrastructure; education; a
sustainable rural development strategy; stepping up the fight
against crime and corruption; and prioritising the fight against the
The Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement also indicates a strong
intention to maintain expansionary fiscal and monetary policies into
the outer years of the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework. One of the
key lessons that corporate South Africa and corporations the world
over should learn from the current economic crisis is that heedless,
selfish, amoral economic interests, particularly in terms of
business practices, leads to bad economic outcomes with unintended
consequences that affects mostly the poor and the working people.
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Financial institutions designed to carry out functions of the bank
should do so within the designed regulatory framework. If they
desire to deliberately avoid and evade regulations, they wreak havoc
on the very same economy and markets that they are supposed to
support and sustain.
Secondly, the creation of subprime lending to the unbankable in
order to support profitability and award huge bonuses to executives
in the banking or financial institutions, is not sustainable.
The third lesson that we should learn from this economic crisis is
that overvalued corporate assets and stock market shares also lead
to distortion of the economy and undermine the same economy that
seeks to be promoted and sustained.
The sad part of everything is that all these mistakes hurt the poor
and working class people the most. As we proceed into the future in
terms of our economic recovery, it will be important that we
deliberately seek state intervention in the economy to reduce and
eliminate inequalities in society and also seek to equalise incomes
between the poor and the rich.
As far as our recommendations are concerned, I would like to focus
mainly on three or more things that the committee has looked at. In
order for Parliament to engage substantially and more intelligently
with the budget before it, there is a need to expedite the setting
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up of a Parliamentary Budget Office in the near future in order to
support the work of the Select Committee on Finance and
Appropriations, especially during the value-for-money oversight and
accountability exercise. It will therefore be ideal for the Director
of the Parliamentary Budget Office to be appointed as soon as
possible. This should be done no later than March next year.
The committee also believes that it is important to provide
sufficient administrative content and research support capacity to
Parliament in order for it to fulfil its legislative obligations and
oversight functions over the work of the executive. It is also
critical that Parliamentary programmes allow time for Parliamentary
committees to engage with the Medium-Term Policy Statement and
Budget matters, otherwise we pay lip service to public
In conclusion, I would like to thank the committee members for their
participation and for their dedication in making sure that the
committee executes its responsibilities. We therefore recommend that
this House consider and accept our recommendations as proposed in
our report. Thank you. [Time expired.]
Mr D T GEORGE: Madam Deputy Speaker, the Medium-Term Budget Policy
Statement confirms what the average South African household already
knows: The job market has declined sharply; disposable income has
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fallen; indebtedness remains high; and government excess has been
There is no doubt that the global financial crisis has hit home and
has had a far worse impact on our fiscal framework than anticipated
only a few months ago. Conditions have deteriorated very quickly.
The steady progress made over the past 15 years to develop a robust
economy capable of withstanding constantly changing globally
integrated markets, has been reversed. The Budget deficit, at 7,6%
of Gross Domestic Product, GDP, or R184 billion, will need to be
financed by the people.
Government plans to expand its debt from a current 29% of GDP to 41%
in 2012-13, mostly sourced on the domestic credit market. This will
impact on the availability and price of credit for other
participants in the economy. This 12 percentage point increase is a
significant expansion in rand terms, given that the GDP is expected
to grow from next year. The room left to manoeuvre is getting
tighter, especially given that assumptions underlining the fiscal
framework may well prove to be optimistic. If our economy does not
grow as expected, we are heading for debt servicing expenditure that
will slow down service delivery even further.
Given the service delivery protests that have erupted recently, it
is clear that the people are growing restless over the absence of
delivery caused by government’s failure and inability to efficiently
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spend the money that is available. Matters will be far worse when
money is not available.
Although the tax revenue shortfall amounts to R70,3 billion, a
further R10,8 billion shortfall arises from sources in the
provinces, social security funds and state-owned enterprises. This
reduces government revenue to 27,3% of GDP. Government expenditure,
however, increased nearly 5 percentage points from last year, to 35%
of GDP. The numbers point to the emergence of a dysfunctional
developmental state. The size of government participation in the
economy is increasing, but government functionality and service
delivery output is not.
The DA supports the counter-cyclical fiscal stance adopted by
government. This does mean that government will be spending more at
a time when its revenue is shrinking and the result will be a
deficit and an increase in borrowing. The crucial issue, however, is
that an increase in government spending during a recession should
benefit the economy in the longer term and yield maximum post-
recession benefits. Increased spending to fund government
inefficiency and luxury lifestyles for the government élite is not
acceptable and defeats the purpose.
The preliminary report by the Government Task Team to Effect Savings
makes bold and welcome statements. We also welcome the Minister’s
firm commitment to not tolerate corruption; act forcibly against
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wastage; insist on value for money; and act against those who feed
selfishly off the state.
Increases in government spending do not demonstrate this commitment.
The R589 million set aside for new government departments and the
appointment of additional Ministers and Deputy Ministers appears to
be little more than a political exercise to appease the various
factions within the government alliance with the perks and
privileges of executive office. Ten thousand RDP houses could have
been built instead. That would have represented a real and tangible
impact on the lives of ordinary South Africans.
The R1 billion recapitalisation of the Land Bank would not be
necessary if government had taken steps to prevent deployed cadres
from infecting the institution with a culture of kleptocracy that is
extremely difficult to eradicate, given that it is widen-spread
across the state-owned enterprises. These entities are funded with
taxpayers’ money intended to improve the lives of the poor. We
expect the Minister to do as he says he will do and ensure that the
parasites who steal the people’s money are identified and
The R12 billion increase in the state payroll – not provided for in
the main Budget – demonstrates that government does not manage its
human capital effectively. There are too many public servants in
unproductive jobs within a bloated bureaucracy, and too few in
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critical service delivery areas. The state payroll is steadily
increasing, without tangible benefits to taxpayers and service
recipients. This is not value for money.
Not long ago in a place not far away, a government forgot that it
exists to serve its people. It adopted unworkable policies that
brought a once-thriving economy to collapse; it violated property
rights; it ignored its Constitution; it spent more than it received;
it used the people’s money to fund luxury lifestyles for some; it
printed money to fund its debts and rendered it currency worthless.
And now, Zimbabwe awaits financial rescue. We must prevent this from
happening to us.
Now that Minister Manuel has vacated his position as Minister of
Finance, the public will no longer have an opportunity to offer
their “Tips for Trevor” in the lead up to the annual Budget. It
therefore seems likely that this would be replaced by “pointers” for
the present Minister. The DA would like to offer the first one to
the Minister: The social contract between government and taxpayers
is already strained because taxpayers must fund inefficient
government spending and luxury lifestyles for some while they
struggle daily to put food in their children’s stomachs and a roof
over their heads. Tax increases will not be necessary if government
spends the people’s money wisely. Thank you. [Applause.]
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Mr N J J VAN R KOORNHOF: Madam Deputy Speaker, we are all aware that
this policy statement by the hon Minister of Finance was made
against the backdrop of a very uncertain economic time, compounded
by a behind-the-scenes ideological debate regarding the direction of
The hon Minister has passed this hurdle looking like the boss we
expect a Finance Minister to be. His consistent approach, in not
diverting from previous policies, has won him Cope’s support.
It was 20 years ago that the world was reborn when the Berlin Wall
collapsed and the face of the world changed forever. The current
debate, fuelled by Cosatu and the SACP on who should be the boss on
economic policy, is ironic. Cosatu must realise that the real
opposition in South Africa’s economy is not us or them, but the
Cosatu must be wary not to overplay their hand with the new
government and need to pick their battles with government with
greater care. Battles should never be personal. Cosatu and the SACP
should stop this debate now, support the Treasury under the guidance
of the hon Minister and get on with the job to address our serious
economic challenges. We do have serious challenges.
Firstly, South Africa will have a hesitant economic recovery. We are
going to lag behind the world’s economic recovery and some downward
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risks remain in our economy. Therefore, our growth forecast should
Secondly, the uncertain effect of rising energy prices over the next
12 months affects inflation forecasts and creates uncertainty. Until
we have sorted out Eskom’s capital requirements, the market will
Thirdly, the question remains as to whether our fiscal stimulus
package is correct and not too late. So far, this government has
relied extensively on public spending increases and not on any tax
cuts. This programme is too silent on private sector involvement.
A large portion of this expenditure increase is the growing salary
bill, approaching like a swarm of locust throwing a dark cloud over
our economy. Government has acknowledged that the increase in the
salary bill is not sustainable. Let’s now see action to curb it.
Economists have warned that our fiscal deficit increase is one of
the highest. It is comparable to that of the United States. Because
of that, our public debt will increase dramatically, shifting the
burden of this debt to future generations.
Cope would like to see a clear plan, even if it needs to take a
longer view, to ensure that we shall be out of this debt. Only a
conservative and consistent approach by government to cut the salary
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bill and to grow the economy will spare our future generations from
Failure to improve efficiency in government spending will delay our
recovery and prolong further borrowing.
We need specific investments. We need to speed up access to the
internet. Government does not have the fiscal space to create jobs
alone. We need the private sector. We need low inflation targets,
high productivity and competitiveness. We need to ensure that the
small and medium-sized enterprises, SMEs, become the main engine of
job growth by getting the banks to fund them, cut the red tape and
make the internet more affordable. It is vital that we focus on
expenditure programmes that will improve competitiveness.
It will be the hon Minister’s duty to control our soaring debts so
as to avoid serious discomfort for our economy. We wish him all the
best and Cope will support him in these efforts. [Applause.]
Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: Madam Deputy Speaker, the IFP would today
like to present two dissenting views on the Medium-Term Budget
Policy Statement, MTBPS.
First, the IFP cannot associate itself with the Medium-Term Budget
Policy Statement’s total reliance on the economy turning around this
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fourth quarter and thereafter maintaining a high rate of sustained
economic growth for the next three years.
This too optimistic a scenario is pegged on selected positive signs,
on the uncorroborated belief in a sudden increase in consumer
spending and on the assumption that the South African economy will
be raised by the raising of the US economy.
It underplays signs which suggest that the depression will continue
next year, such as the projected decline in construction and the
recessionary effect of the completion of the 2010 Fifa World Cup
infrastructural and commercial preparation.
It is risky to boost consumer confidence with the untested promise
that the hard days are over, rather than with real interest rate
cuts and measures countering the credit crunch. Instead of trying to
serve the national interest by expecting the best while preparing
for the worst, the MTBPS is ignoring the worst while relying on the
Secondly, realising, as one should, that even though the global
depression started as a financial crisis, it has now become an
industrial crisis, the IFP criticises the Medium-Term Budget Policy
Statement’s failure to make the required structural adjustments to
create a new and globally competitive industrial basis and to cut on
chronic government-created industrial problems.
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The depression should have given the impetus to abolish the entire
system of exchange controls – which serves no purpose at this
country’s stage of development; to introduce the flexibility of the
labour market which government has been talking about since 1998;
and to reform the underperforming parastatal sectors.
The MTBPS speaks of necessary relief for our economy, such as the
devaluation of the Rand and cuts in interest rates, but none have
yet been effected in any relevant manner, as if there were time for
it. The MTBPS should bring tax reliefs and a new package of long-
term incentives for the creation of new viable economic sectors,
such as assistance in Research and Development, but it contains none
of them specifically. Thank you.
Mr L W GREYLING: Speaker, in an interview shortly after the hon
Minister delivered his speech, I was told by one journalist that the
worst nightmare for opposition parties would be if the Budget
signalled a shift to the left. He then asked me if my worst
nightmare had come true.
I immediately thought about the fact that, with a projected deficit
of 7,6%, by any account, this is indeed a left budget statement. It
sends a very strong signal that social spending will not be cut
during this recessionary period. It makes financial provision for
the extension of the Child Support Grant to all children under the
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age of 18 and provides an extra R900 million for antiretroviral
treatment for HIV patients.
In addition, it gives our cash-strapped local government sphere an
extra R12,6 billion and ensures that our infrastructure built
programme will act as an economic stimulus during this recessionary
If this is supposed to be my worst nightmare – I thought to myself –
then I would like to state for the record that I believe there is a
very fine line between nightmares and dreams.
The fact is that the terms “left” and “right” do not apply in their
traditional sense anymore. Proof of this lies in the fact that, on
that same day, I heard the economist Brian Kantor – not a leftist by
any means – state that he was against rigid inflation targeting, the
supposed holy cow of the right.
It is clear therefore that we need an economic policy that does not
preserve the status quo of half our people living in poverty, 40%
unemployment and rising inequalities.
The ID supports the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement and the
Minister’s commitment to reign in wasteful expenditure while
expanding provisions to the poor. Perhaps now the hon Minister can
start the difficult task of getting the message across to his
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Cabinet colleagues that it is not the car that maketh the Minister,
but their solidarity with the poor. I thank you.
Mr S Z NTAPANE: Deputy Speaker, hon members, the UDM is concerned
about the effects of the recession on the average South African.
People are struggling to make ends meet. Therefore we condemn
wasteful and extravagant expenditure by government.
The economic situation is dire, as reflected by the shortfall of
billions of Rand in tax revenues, which proves that government
simply cannot afford to waste precious funding. The UDM is concerned
about the growing Budget deficit. It is not healthy to incur such a
long-term debt, which future generations will inevitably inherit.
The UDM is also concerned that the Minister will face an uphill
battle against the left wing of the ruling alliance, which seems to
be launching an all out attack on the idea of a free market. Now
more than ever the UDM believes that a responsible and caring
government should also be a government that allows the
entrepreneurial drive of the man in the street to flourish. Now is
the time to encourage people to create new wealth and prosperity.
The UDM support this Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement. I thank
Adv D A ALBERTS: Adjunkspeaker, Minister Pravin Gordhan se
mediumtermynbegrotingsbeleid getuig van ’n ewewigtige benadering tot
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ekonomiese beleid en daarmee kan die VF Plus hom geluk wens. Daar
flikker egter ’n paar gevaartekens op die horison.
Indien die Minister wil hê dat die belastingbetaler waarde vir sy
geld moet kry – soos hy onderneem – moet hy nie net korrupsie bekamp
nie, maar die onsinnige besteding op irrelevante items, soos oorsese
reise in alle staatsdepartemente, vasvat.
’n Verdere voorbeeld: Om R200 miljoen vir die SAUK te gee as gevolg
van wanbestuur, is nie waarde vir geld nie.
Daar sal ook indringend gekyk moet word na die sfeer van plaaslike
regering, waar stadsrade miljoene rande spandeer op luukse
partytjies en konferensies terwyl gewone mense nie kos het om te eet
Daarom is dit net billik dat, as daar verwag word van die
belastingbetaler om sy gordel in te trek, die staatsdepartemente dit
ook sal doen.
Verder sal die Minister ook indringend daarna moet kyk om die
belastingbasis uit te brei, aangesien 7 miljoen mense nie aanhoudend
kan betaal vir 50 miljoen mense nie.
Die Minister se vooruitskatting van ’n groeikoers van 3,2% oor drie
jaar is ’n realistiese benadering. Wat wel kommerwekkend is, is dat
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die leningsbedrag oor drie jaar vanaf 23% van die bruto binnelandse
produk, BBP, na 41% sal groei. Geld wat geleen word moet terugbetaal
word met rente, en dit sal die belastingbetaler wees wat daarvoor
moet opdok. Soos dit is, kan die belastingbetaler nie die huidige
belastinglas hanteer nie, en dit is sonder die beplande Eskom
verhogings. Daarom sal die regering baie meer kreatief moet wees ten
opsigte van die aangaan en terugbetaling van skuld. Indien die
belastingbetaler, insluitend besighede, verder swaar belas word, sal
die skepping van 4,5 miljoen werksgeleenthede oor die volgende vyf
jaar bloot ’n hersenskim kan bly. Ons hoop dit is nie die geval nie.
Ons bid jou wysheid toe, Minister Gordhan. Dankie. (Translation of
Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Adv D A ALBERTS: Deputy Speaker, Minister Pravin Gordhan’s Medium-
Term Budget Policy Statement bears testimony to a balanced approach
to economic policy and with this the FF Plus would like to
congratulate him. However, several danger signals are flashing on
If the Minister wants the taxpayer to get value for his money- as he
is undertaking- he would not only have to combat corruption, but he
will also have to clamp down on the senseless spending on irrelevant
items, such as overseas travelling, in all of the government
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 30 of 185
Another illustration of this: To give R200 million to the SABC owing
to mismanagement, is not value for money.
There should also be a thorough investigation of the local sphere of
government, where city councils are spending millions of rand on
lavish parties and conferences, while ordinary people do not have
food to eat.
It is, therefore, only fair that, if it is expected of the taxpayer
to tighten his belt, the government departments should also be doing
In addition, the Minister should also have a thorough investigation
with regard to expanding the tax base, in view of the fact that 7
million people cannot continue paying for 50 million people.
The Minister’s forecast of a growth rate of 3,2% is a realistic
approximation. What is alarming, however, is that over three years
the loan amount will increase from 23% of the Gross Domestic
Product, GDP, to 41%. Money that is borrowed has to be paid back
with interests, and it will be the taxpayer who will have to cough
up for this. As it is, the taxpayer is not able to cope with the
current tax burden, and this is without the planned increases by
Eskom. Therefore, Government will have to be a lot more creative
with regard to incurring and the repayment of debt. If the taxpayer,
including business, continues to be heavily taxed, the creation of
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4,5 million job opportunities over the next five years will have to
continue to be merely a pipe-dream. We hope that this is not the
case. We pray that you will be bestowed with wisdom, Minister
Gordhan. Thank you.]
Ms Z S DUBAZANA: Deputy Speaker, the executives and hon members,
“Sanibonani.” [Good afternoon.] Internationally, there is a growing
consensus that good governance can promote pro-poor distributive
outcomes and also reduce corruption. Budgets are particularly
powerful instruments in socioeconomic transformation, redirecting
public resources to benefit the poor and other vulnerable groups,
particularly in the provision of public services.
The 52nd ANC conference in Polokwane made it clear that the bulk
infrastructure tender processes did not take care of the emerging
contractors. It also indicated the dying need for the centralisation
planning. The latter has been achieved, much as the DA does not see
the need for R500 million to be spent on the new divisions.
In the apartheid era, budgeting and budget processes were
characterised by secrecy and lack of transparency, with negligible
participation by Parliament or civil society. Thank you to the ANC
who brought back our dignity and respect. This is indicated by the
innovations included, the introduction of the Medium-Term
Expenditure Framework, MTEF, and also the establishment of the
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Minister’s Committee on Budgets so as to enhance political oversight
and the allocation of resources.
The committees on finance had an opportunity to listen to different
public hearings on the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS.
Some presentations were quite informative, while others were neither
here nor there.
Let me share one of the perceptions that were raised by one of the
presenters. This presenter said, “the patient is in the operation
theatre, and the operation went well, but the patient died.”
The ANC is aware that the country is experiencing an economic
downturn, but that doesn’t mean that the patient is going to die,
rather, the patient is in the recovery room. This means that we are
recovering, but recuperation will depend on the commitment and the
determination from all of us in this Chamber.
The ANC believes that an individual contribution will contribute
towards the survival of the whole, which are our communities. The
ANC’s programme document, called The Freedom Charter, indicated very
well that poverty and inequality must be eradicated. Indeed, the
ANC-led government, within the 15 years, has tried to combat the
problem, but there is still a lot to be done.
Let me share some achievements. The Expanded Public Works Programme,
EPWP, is targeted at creating 1 million job opportunities in 5
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years, to be implemented across the 4 sectors. If you listen and
compare the network opportunities created in the financial year
2008-09, the total is 568 224, and the cumulative total comes to,
within the 5 years, 1,6 million. Indeed, the ANC does not make a
wish list when it sets up its programmes or its objectives.
The ANC also promised during its 52nd conference in Polokwane that
it would halve poverty between 2004 and 2014. The real annual mean
per capita analysis shows an improvement in the incomes of the
poorest, rising from R783 to R1 141 in 2008.
The ANC has also acknowledged that the gap between the rich and the
poor is increasingly growing. This is a sign that the deep
structural nature of poverty and inequality in South Africa has a
racial underpinning. It seems also that the lowest rate of
improvement that I’m talking about is in the middle-income range.
The ANC-led government has provided appropriate social assistance
support to all eligible beneficiaries. As of March 2009, just over
13 million people received social grants, which takes about 5,5% of
our Gross Domestic Product, GDP. The ANC supports this, much as the
members on my left hand side strongly believe that the ANC shall
create a social welfare state.
In 2007, a community survey estimated that people with disability
constitute 4% of South Africa’s population, and while opportunities
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have increased, there are still insufficient services and
opportunities for people with disabilities to participate equally in
economic transformation or development. The Constitution envisages a
role for the legislature both in influencing the Budget and
exercising oversight to ensure the effectiveness and the efficiency
of the economy service delivery.
The ANC supports the Medium-Term Policy Statement. God bless you.
[Time expired.] [Applause.]
Ms C DUDLEY: Deputy Speaker, the ACDP broadly supports the three-
year plan which has had to factor in a massive shortfall in tax
revenues. We agree that, while borrowing now does seem to be the
right thing to do, it is unsustainable in the long run.
We recognise, however, that fiscal expansion and, in particular,
infrastructure spending have contributed to long-term capacity and
short-term job creation. We welcome the additional R70 billion over
3 years to improve education, health services, the fight against
crime, job creation, social services, infrastructure, etc.
Reducing unemployment and addressing poverty must remain our single
biggest priority. The ACDP shares the Minister’s concerns that the
output and outcomes are lagging given the massive investments we are
making. We support government’s commitment to reducing wastage and
achieving greater savings in departments.
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 35 of 185
The ACDP will support the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement which
is presented against the backdrop of shrinking economic growth, a
ballooning Budget deficit, and a mounting pressure on the new
government. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms M N MATLADI: Deputy Speaker, it is ironic that, according to the
speech of the Minister of Finance on the Medium-Term Budget Policy
Statement, 500 000 people have lost jobs while on 3 June 2009, the
President promised that, “between now and December 2009, we plan to
create about 500 000 job opportunities.” Instead people are left
with economic devastation and the human tragedy of job losses.
The Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement for 2009 spells out several
issues of concern; the decline of income tax at R21 billion, VAT at
R31 billion, and Customs and Excise Duties at R9 billion lower than
estimated in February. This leads to the country’s borrowing
requirement of R285 billion against the R89 billion of the previous
The procurement system has to be reformed to avoid fraudulent
activities in the departments, including R615 million paid to
employees doing business with departments. The government is losing
billions of Rand on consultants who are not hired temporarily for
specific expertise, but are hired to perform the duties of the
employed officials – which is a double expenditure.
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 36 of 185
Finally, there is a concern with regard to the exorbitant salaries
of municipal managers, their expensive vehicles and their highly-
paid bodyguards. These have to be monitored during these hard times.
I thank you. [Time expired.]
Mr R B BHOOLA: Deputy Speaker, the MF strongly believes that the
deficit will have tremendous implications for and a negative impact
on service delivery. The austerity measures such as saving schemes
and reprioritisation of departmental programmes, non-core versus
core functions, as a way and means of instilling financial
management and discipline are welcome.
The MF feels that the austerity measures are not adequately
addressed in all the areas of government, including the executive,
like going on insignificant international trips, etc. However, the
MF believes that this is a good initiative, but it should start from
the executive level where more funds are spent.
KwaZulu-Natal is heading towards an overdraft of R4 billion as a
result of poor financial planning. This has a detrimental impact on
the money that is budgeted for service delivery. This means that
less money is spent on service delivery and more on the executive,
whereas, in actual fact, it is suppose to be the other way around.
This will assist government if it is serious about transforming the
economy and restructuring the public service and economic recovery.
The MF will support the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement.
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 37 of 185
Mr E M SOGONI: Deputy Speaker and hon Members of Parliament, the
world has experienced the worst financial and economic contraction,
some say since 1930, others would say 1992 or 1993. Although the
medium-term growth is low, South Africa’s good economic choices over
the past decade have allowed it room for the bold response that was
presented in the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, by the
hon Minister of Finance, hon Pravin Gordhan.
The Minister has tabled a series of policy measures that should
contribute towards pushing back the frontiers of poverty. The
Minister of Finance, in his foreword on the MTBPS, quoted the
constitutional vision that enjoins us:
... to improve the quality of life of all citizens and free the
potential of each person as we build a nation based on democratic
values, social justice and human rights.
This is in line with the ANC’s vision of creating a better life for
all, understanding the challenges of confronting decades of
subjugation, unemployment and the widening gap of inequalities
between the rich and the poor. The Gini coefficient has now moved
beyond 0,5 signalling the worsening inequalities.
In the past few months, an estimated 500 000 jobs have been lost,
adding to the already high unemployment rate. This only serves to
increase the challenges that face South Africa as a developmental
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state. That is why the ANC at the 52nd National Conference resolved
to capacitate and build a developmental state that today has set
bold policy measures to enable South Africa to respond to the
changed economic environment and construct a more robust platform
for growth as the world economy recovers.
In fact, the International Monetary Fund, IMF, believes that the
world economy is beginning to turn the corner. This MTBPS enjoins
the government to ensure that limited resources are utilised to
produce maximum outputs without compromising the quality of services
An additional Budget of R78 billion over the Medium-Term Expenditure
Framework, MTEF, is certainly most welcome. As the ANC, we
congratulate the Minister for not revising down the Budget
estimates, but boldly keeping them intact and ensuring that the
priorities of the government are advanced to ensure that rural
development, amongst others, is firmly placed on the agenda of
The challenge facing the ones robbed of their land is the absence of
a budget for land restitution and the creation of new farmers.
Obviously, rural development cannot be relegated to one department
as all departments have a role to play, including the Department of
Economic Development, so that those who want to remain in the rural
areas are allowed to do so. Many beneficiaries of land restitution
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have to wait for years before they can be compensated because of
lack of budget. This is unacceptable.
We invited the Human Sciences Research Council, HSRC, who shared
their warm appreciation for the vision and MTBPS, although they
raised certain reservations. One of the reservations, amongst
others, is funding for health.
The ANC acknowledges the MTBPS for taking into account the
importance of local governments by ensuring that the Municipal
Infrastructure Grant, MIG, grows over the MTEF period. It may not be
enough, but it will go a long way in ensuring that, one day, there
will not be much difference in infrastructure development between
rural and urban areas.
The commitment of this government in creating sustainable and
descent jobs is very clear in the MTBPS, if you look at the
budgetary commitment for infrastructure.
The strategy and tactics document states:
The central task in the current period is the eradication of the
socioeconomic legacy of apartheid; and this will remain so for
many years to come. However, the establishment of a government
based on the will of the people, progress in the transformation of
the state, the codification of rights and implementation of
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progressive socioeconomic programmes represent a major change in
the sociopolitical environment.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank members of the
Standing Committee on Appropriations, across political parties, and
staff for their support in ensuring that the MTBPS report was
produced timeously and adopted unanimously by the committee members.
I also thank my secretary for going the extra mile to ensure that
everything ran smoothly. The ANC support the MTBPS. I thank you.
Mr P J RABIE: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon Ministers and hon Members of
Parliament, South Africa, like a number of other emerging economies,
finds itself in a recession. Our tax revenue declined form R740,4
billion to R657,5 billion, while expenditure decreased from R843,3
billion to R841 billion. Budget deficit increased from an estimated
3,8% to 7,6% of Gross Domestic Product, GDP.
The DA agrees with the hon Minister of Finance that the increase in
the Public Sector Wage Bill, which is higher than the official
inflation rate, may lead to higher inflation pressure. Another
inhibiting factor is the possible escalation in the price of
electricity of 45%, which will adversely affect the entire economy.
In a nutshell, further job losses are inevitable.
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 41 of 185
We compete in a global market where a competitive advantage of
manufactured goods is influenced by the cost of energy. For
instance, it’s estimated that the cost of producing one ounce of
gold will increase by 30% if the price of electricity increases by
45% in three years. At the current gold price production it will no
longer be viable, leading to mine closures and job losses.
The greatest threat to the present South African economy, however,
is unemployment. Estimates of job losses vary from 20% to 40%.
Chronic unemployment has become a fact of life to millions of South
Africans. It was estimated that in June 2004, 4,1 million workers
were without jobs. What we need is an economic policy that makes
South Africa independent from, and not dependent upon social grants.
More than ever before, we need a broad, holistic and strategic
economic policy and leadership, and not irresponsible populist
verbal attacks on our current fiscal and monetary policies. It
appears that the Congress of South African Trade Unions, Cosatu, and
the African National Congress Youth League, ANCYL, are determined to
question the credibility of a senior member of Cabinet whose
portfolio relates to planning, rather than to provide solutions to
alleviate poverty, improve service delivery, curb the breakdown in
law and order, and retain the independence of the judiciary - key
components for sustained future economic growth.
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The DA is in a position to provide a viable alternative economic
policy. We acknowledge that apartheid was wrong. It used race to
discriminate, embitter and drive millions of South Africans apart.
Let us not repeat the mistakes of the past. Let us create an open
society with equal opportunities where choice and merit are used,
and not race quotas and cronyism, to provide an economic environment
with positive growth and employment.
Incessant government intervention inhibits economic growth. The core
function of the government is to co-ordinate and regulate. We need
an effective and efficient public sector, free of corruption, which
endeavours to develop our human capital, not to enrich a small close
- knit élite with political ties to the ruling party. I thank you.
Mr D D VAN ROOYEN: Hon Deputy Speaker, Ministers and Deputy
Ministers, fellow colleagues, central to our developmental agenda as
the ANC, the leading party in government, is the mammoth task of
ensuring that all South Africans are provided with an opportunity to
pursue economic growth, development and redistribution so as to
realise a better life for all.
Our government’s fiscal policy is the axis around which this
developmental mandate orbits. It enables us to deliver on this
mandate by providing resources in a manner that is sustainable and
that complements the much-needed stability of the economy. As the
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ruling party, our beloved organisation the ANC has, since coming
into power, striven for the realisation of a strategic perspective
of contributing to a stable economy, which we understand to be
crucial for creating an environment in which job creation can
accelerate, entrepreneurial activities can flourish, and companies
and households can invest with confidence.
The current global economic contraction has placed all governments’
revenues under severe pressure at a time when economies require
fiscal support the most, and at a time when liquidity is very
scarce. As a result of our sound countercyclical fiscal policy,
unlike many other countries in the world where budget deficits have
increased, our healthy public finances enabled us to support growth
and spending on infrastructure and social services.
In fact, our fiscal response to the economic recession is regarded
as one of the largest in the world. The fact that our fiscal and
monetary policy cushioned the impact of the budget deficit, which we
are all aware moved from 1% of our GDP in the 2008-09 financial year
to a projected deficit of 7,6% this financial year, is a much-
welcomed reaction and confirms the correctness of the fiscal path we
have opted for as the ruling party. We regard this development as a
positive step forward towards the realisation of our massive
programme to build economic and social infrastructure.
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As the ANC we concur that the current expenditure trend will widen
government borrowing requirements in order for the government to
continue with its noble agenda of bettering the lives of our people.
The fact that we entered the economic downturn with a budget surplus
is a big plus for us as it creates space for us to continue with our
long-term investment plans without having to worry too much about
the recession’s impact on such plans. It is in the same context
that, as the ANC, we support the projected consolidated borrowing
requirement of R285 billion.
The ability of government to finance its expenditure programme in a
sustainable way is a very central principle of any fiscal policy. A
key indicator of sustainability are debt-service costs. Hon Speaker
and respectable House, if these costs are left to rise as a
percentage of GDP over the long term, we will find it difficult to
stick to our expenditure programme. To avoid the possibility of such
an occurrence, we urge the Ministry to ensure that related spending
is driven by real physical investment projects that will assist us
to create jobs that will lead to growth in household expenditure,
that will lead to injections to the tax revenue and that will make a
positive contribution to the much-deserved economic growth.
It is our belief that such an approach will enable us to treat
borrowing as a temporary solution that cannot be allowed to burden
generations and inhibit future growth and service delivery. We agree
that sustaining higher borrowing will lead to our having spiralling
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debt costs and eventually to a costly adjustment through lower
spending on service delivery or, the most unfortunate situation, to
increasing tax rates. This might have a very serious adverse effect
on economic stability and growth.
Central to our attempt to curb a budget deficit will be the
oversight capacity of both the National Assembly and the National
Council of Provinces. As cited in the report of the Standing
Committee on Finance, it is our submission as the ANC that, inter
alia, the proposed measures be adhered to. The intended expansion of
public sector capital expenditure is seen as a good enabler for
economic productivity capacity, which will empower the state to
continue providing required services and goods.
The expansion in public infrastructure expenditure is also welcomed
as an initiative that will enhance the government agenda of economic
growth and transformation of the economy in order to create decent
work and sustainable livelihoods. We are convinced as the ANC that
the newly introduced Ministries of the National Planning Commission
and of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation will assist us in
dealing with the problem of integrated implementation of all
earmarked infrastructure programmes.
Indeed, our economic and social development is about our collective
commitment as government, the private sector and civil society to
realising the cited priorities of our government. It will be of the
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utmost importance to work together. Working together we can do.
“Eendrag maak mag.” [There is strength in unity.]
Hence, it is necessary for all of us to pay tax. Tax revenue has
emerged as the key contributor to national income. Therefore it is
extremely important for all taxpaying South Africans and companies
to prioritise the payment of tax. In order to cater for current
development needs and narrowing the worrisome budget deficit we
really need to double our efforts and do things differently to boost
tax revenue. We therefore welcome the tireless efforts in the form
of penalties that are to be introduced by our hard-working, South
African Revenue Service, Sars team. As commanded by the holy book,
let’s make sure that we owe no man anything and continue to shower
the downtrodden with our love by abiding by the law by paying tax.
Taking our cue from the high-growth strategy studies conducted on 13
economies, we must use the five established growth reasons to
further harness the economic moment we are currently in. These are:
shifting resources to labour-intensive sectors; having fiscal and
monetary policies that promote balanced, sustainable growth;
increasing competitiveness, raising productivity, lowering costs;
having trade and industrial policies that lower costs and create
jobs; and improving public-sector performance and service delivery.
As the ANC we support the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, the
MTBPS, and remain convinced that it is a budgetary and fiscal
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declaration of intent that has the full potential of ensuring that
collectively we deliver on our mandate as assigned by the South
African majority. Indeed, this MTBPS is an appropriate foundation
for an economically sound Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF.
Kea leboga, Mmusa-kgotla. [Thank you, Deputy Speaker.] [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Deputy Speaker, hon members, allow me
firstly to thank all of the speakers for their very valuable
contributions and for their support of the Medium-Term Budget Policy
Statement, MTBPS. I must say, we could have saved a lot of time if
they had only said, “we support”, but I understand that this is a
debating chamber, and so we have to debate!
Allow me also to thank the heads of the various committees: Mr
Mufamadi, Mr Sogoni and Mr De Beer from the NCOP for their
contribution towards implementing the new role that Parliament has
and for their thoughtful approach to what we have before us.
Today is actually the day on which we – this executive that sits on
my right – have been in office for six months. You can see that, in
a very short six months, we have had a crisis, we have had a
response to that crisis, and we have had some very insightful
contributions from the ruling party and others on how best to manage
that crisis so that South Africans, whether they be rich or poor,
can actually cope with it much better.
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In essence, I think what we would like to say to South Africa today
as we debate the MTBPS, is that we reiterate the fact that we will
deliver on our priorities as government. These priorities are:
better health care; better education; more work opportunities –
notwithstanding the current loss of jobs; our focus on rural
development; and our determination to eliminate the crime and
corruption that so bedevils South Africa.
We are saying that we will spend the R78 billion allocated over the
next three years in a prudent way and take into account all of the
many factors that have been raised by all the parties that have
spoken here today.
We are also assuring South Africans and this House that the
prudence, which has marked our previous management of finances, will
continue to characterise the way in which we approach our
responsibilities. We want to assure you that South Africa’s fiscus
is in good hands – that being the hands of Cabinet as a whole – and
that we are very mindful of the tough situation we find ourselves
in, and of the responsibilities that we carry.
Notwithstanding the difficulties that we have, we are also mindful
of the fact that we have to take South Africa back on to a growth
path. As the MTBPS said itself, President Zuma is quite determined
that we don’t just go back to the old norm, but that all of us, as
South Africans, contribute to finding a new way of growing our
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economy to create many more jobs for many generations of South
Africans who have been excluded from this possibility.
We are also committed – and we welcome the commitment of all of the
parties in Parliament – to stopping waste and corruption, getting
value for money, and to ensuring that the 1,5 million civil servants
that work in government will join us in this particular campaign.
Above all, I think we need to send a message to South Africa that we
will look after people who have lost their jobs and help them to
either get retrained or to benefit from the UIF or from other
measures that are available from the state.
We also want to send a message to the poor that their social grants
will not be cut as far as we can help it, certainly not for the
foreseeable future, and in fact we want to protect their income so
that they can continue to have the benefit of state support.
We also want to send a message to our small, medium and large
businesses, and the entrepreneurs who manage them, that they need to
become a lot more innovative and bold – notwithstanding the climate
we find ourselves in – and create jobs which will ensure that South
Africans can have the dignity of a job, rather than just being
dependent on welfare.
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Let me also then give you some context. There was a G20 meeting over
the weekend in St Andrews. Those of you who are golfers will know
that St Andrews is supposed to be the home of golf. All I could do
was stand at a distance and watch the golf course. I am sure that
there are people in this Chamber who would have enjoyed being on the
Arising from that G20 meeting, a set of messages begin to emerge.
The first is that the stimulus has certainly helped the world to
cope with this recession better than what it would have. Our own
efforts at a stimulus package – if you want to call it that – have
helped South Africa as well.
The second message is that there is a recovery on the way, but it is
a very cautious recovery. All of the graphs around the world are
ticking upwards. But that ticking is a very gradual one; it’s a very
small one and no one can say for certain that it will amount to the
“V” that everybody would like to see.
The third message is that there is agreement that the exit strategy
that we all speak of and that some are beginning to venture towards,
is not at our doorstep just yet. There needs to be continuous co-
ordination within the G20 and around the G20 to ensure that we don’t
have the “W” that Mr Rubini and others spoke of.
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It is of particular concern for us in South Africa and other
developing countries if developed countries randomly exit from their
stimulus strategies, as that could actually have a devastating
effect on developing countries.
The fourth message is that there is a discussion going on now in the
G20 and in other quarters which says that we need a new growth path,
not just for South Africa but, indeed, for the world as a whole.
There needs to be greater inclusivity, more balance in a multiple
sense and the necessity to look for new what I call sources of
We also talked about climate financing, but only to decide not to
talk about it too much. There is still a huge debate going on about
who bears responsibility for the climate challenges that we face,
who should support the developing countries and how, in respect of
both adaptation financing and mitigation financing, this support
should be rendered.
Finally, there was a lot of discussion around regulation of the
global financial system, around bonuses and some of the issues that
hon members have actually raised here.
More specifically, I think we need to agree with members that we
need to be cautious; we need to stabilise our economy; we need to
ensure that we lay a new basis for the way in which South Africa
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grows. But laying that new basis is not going to come from one side
of the House or from one social partner; it has to come from all of
us, and that is what I hope this House will begin to focus its mind
on and ensure that we get the debate that we require.
The new growth path that we speak of provides an opportunity for all
sides of the House to co-create this new growth path. We have
several parties who have said, “we have ideas”. Well, let us try to
create a forum where those ideas can be shared and let us tap into
the creativity of all South Africans so that all of us can actually
We all agree with Mr Koornhof and others that our economy needs to
be more competitive and that our small and medium-sized enterprises,
SMEs, need to be supported more. We also agree with Mr Oriani-
Ambrosini that we actually need a balance between spending, saving
and debt management at the household. But there is no one answer to
all of these things. There is a new balance that is required. There
are times when we need to spend more and there are times when we
need to save more. As the Christmas season comes up, that’s the
balance that we actually require.
We agree with Mr Rabie that the 45% electricity tariff increase is
not the ideal for South Africa. The assurance that we, as Treasury
and other departments, can give is that there is a collective in
government that is working very hard under Ministers Hogan and
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Peters to ensure that we minimise the impact and tariff increase
itself. We can also assure you that that work will actually carry
Let me assure you that the deficit is going to be managed. Debt is
going to be managed very carefully. While we are also concerned
about imposing upon future generations, these are, unfortunately,
necessary things that we have to do to make sure that government can
meet its commitments and the expectations of our people as well.
I want to agree with those colleagues who talked about service
delivery and the need for improvement. The ruling party does not
tolerate nepotism. It will not tolerate cronyism and wants to fight
corruption as eagerly as anybody else.
I think what we need to focus on is, not who is better than the
other, but rather on generating a collective commitment in this
House, signed by all 400 members, in which we undertake to do
everything each of us can do – regardless of the political party –
to create a new culture in this country. That’s what we need. Not
competition about who has the better idea. [Applause.]
So, let me throw out an offer to all of us: let us find a way – and
perhaps the whips of the parties need to meet to discuss this – to
create the basis for a collective agreement on how we could fight
corruption in this country in all its manifestations. Remember – and
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I repeat this – it is not just public servants who are corrupt;
corruption comes from all forms and sides of our economy. It
requires a total cultural change in terms of the way we approach
business in South Africa and particularly, business with government.
So, let me invite all political parties to join us in this campaign.
We also don’t want a bloated bureaucracy that does not deliver and
that is low in its productivity. Let us also, together with Minister
Baloyi, share ideas about how we move from where we are. We want
more people to be employed in the frontline of service delivery, as
teachers, as nurses, as doctors and as people delivering services
rather than sitting behind desks. I’m sure he is going to come back
to Parliament and give us more feedback in terms of what we are
going to do concretely.
Finally, I want to agree that we urgently need to help Parliament
set up the Parliamentary Budget Office. The budget allocations have
been made to Parliament to enable this to happen. We would like to
play whatever supportive role we can play, because this is the only
way in which Parliament can hold not only the executive, but also
various departments, to account and understand what is involved in
budgets and ask people the right kinds of questions.
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Oversight by Parliament takes another step through this current
process with the Money Bills Amendment legislation allowing
Parliament, through the appropriation committee – as we will discuss
in a moment – to look into whether and what kind of role Parliament
can play in amending budget allocations.
So, Parliament has an important responsibility. We welcome that
responsibility and, over the next few years, we hope to work with
you to ensure that there is greater accountability.
Once again, my thanks to all of the people who have contributed to
the MTBPS and the debate on it. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION BILL
(First Reading debate)
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I would like to raise a point, hon members,
while hon Sogoni is making his way here. The level of noise is
unbearable. Please, I am not saying that you shouldn’t talk, but we
must be able to hear the speaker.
Mr E M SOGONI: Deputy Speaker, colleagues, again the tabling of the
Adjustments Appropriation Bill affords Parliament and the people of
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South Africa the opportunity to reflect and build on the progress
that has been made to change the lives of ordinary people,
specifically the poorest of the poor. The Bill is tabled in the
context of a devastating recession that led to a declining budget,
when a number of firms had to close shop and thousands of workers
lost their jobs.
The economic situation has resulted in the slowing down of economic
growth and obviously reduced fiscal space. However, we take solace
from the fact that the ANC-led government voluntarily maintained
sound financial management and prudent fiscal financial choices that
should caution us against the worst effects of the recession.
The national Adjustment Budget is tabled in line with section 12 of
the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act, Act 9
of 2009, and section 13 of the Public Finance Management Act, Act 1
of 1999. The Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act
enjoins the Minister to present the Medium-Term Budget Policy
Statement, MTBPS, and the Adjustment Appropriation Bill to a joint
sitting of the finance committees of Parliament, which was done. I
will not go into the rest of the procedures of the Act. It is safe
to say that the committees held hearings with a few departments.
The first department to be worked with... in fact, I will just go
through a few departments. My colleagues will cover the other
departments. The Department of Public Works received, amongst
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others, R353 million, intended for the implementation of the
devolution of the Local Government: Municipal Property Rates Act.
The monies will be passed on to the provinces which will, in turn,
allocate it to municipalities to evaluate all properties in their
jurisdiction, so that they can finally charge levies or give
exemption for certain properties that do not qualify. Members need
to support this process in their constituencies, because communities
resist, because they receive notices that do not explain the purpose
of those notices.
The first challenge the department faces is the roll-out of the Re
Kgabisa Tshwane project, which is supposed to be extended to other
cities. The roll-over requested has been accepted by the committee,
but the department needs to spend this money, as this roll-over is
being approved for the second time. We propose that the Portfolio
Committee on Public Works engages the department on their clear
plans of spending these funds. Their second challenge is to address
the capacity challenges in the department, to deliver on the
expectations of their client departments, as their client
departments seriously underspend in capital projects. We discovered
that there are no service level agreements between the departments.
Many departments underspend on capital expenditure, because the
department lacks the necessary capacity.
The other department that was visited was the Department for
Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs, which has also been
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allocated over R500 million to assist with provisional free basic
services for the poor households. Despite major achievements since
1994, many communities and households still remain trapped in
poverty. This should go a long way towards achieving a better life
The department also applied, that is the Department for Cooperative
Governance and Traditional Affairs, for a roll-over of R287 million
of the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, MIG. We were informed that 33
municipalities underspent. However, the department wants to
reallocate this money to 50 other municipalities that have capacity
to spend. This is in contradiction with the Public Finance
Management Act, Act 1 of 1999. Section 43(4)(a) of that Act says it
“does not authorise the utilisation of a saving in (a) an amount
specifically and exclusively appropriated for a purpose mentioned
under a main vote”. Clause 6.1.4(a) of the Treasury Regulations on
roll-overs states that unspent funds on payments for capital assets
may only be rolled over to finalise projects or assets acquisitions
still in progress.
So, the objective of the MIG is to address backlogs with regard to
infrastructure. In fact, we were informed by the official of the
department that they want to redirect this money, as indicated, to
these 50 municipalities. But the objective of MIG is to address
backlogs with regard to infrastructure. Now, if you take this money
away, it means that the poor communities of those municipalities
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will remain deprived of the necessary infrastructure development. In
many cases, those officials do not understand the situation in
different municipalities. At the end of the year, people get bonuses
for not having delivered. Section 154(1) of the Constitution states
– no, I am just... it is all parties – and I quote, “The national
and provincial governments, by legislative and other measures, must
support and strengthen the capacity of municipalities to manage
their own affairs, to exercise their powers and to perform their
functions”. Section 34(1) of the Local Government: Municipal Finance
Management Act, Act 56 of 2003, states that, “the national and
provincial governments must by agreement assist municipalities for
efficient, effective and transparent financial management”. So, the
Department for Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs must
co-ordinate provincial and local departments and Treasury, to
establish support committees for municipalities. The 50 well-
spending municipalities should actually be assisted to access the
Extended Public Works Programme incentive scheme.
We also met with the Department of Rural Development and Land
Reform, which informed us that they are unable to accelerate land
restitution, as they have run out of funds. At the end of the second
quarter, they were at 91%. I think the Minister indicated that in
the House one day. Treasury has not made any adjustments towards
land restitution. It is difficult to understand why. The biggest
challenge of this department is the price they have to pay for land,
which is three times the market value. So, clearly, the willing
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buyer and willing seller approach does not work. In fact, the
department refers to this willing buyer and willing seller approach
as a willing buyer and unwilling seller approach. So, the
alternative for government is the legal expropriation route. The
ANC’s Polokwane resolution says, amongst others, “where necessary,
expropriate property in the public interest or for public purpose in
accordance with the Constitution to achieve equity, redress, social
justice and sustainable development. All legislation pertaining to
expropriation must be aligned with the Constitution”. So, we are not
talking about wholesale expropriation. We are talking about
expropriation in line with the Constitution. [Interjections.] Yes!
Also, the request by the Department of Home Affairs for a roll-over
of R150 million, to acquire the advanced passenger processing
system, and also the “Who am I Online” project, should be granted,
as these programmes are necessary for both the 2010 Fifa Soccer
World Cup and the smartcard identity documents. However, the
Department of Home Affairs need to move fast in resolving the tender
issues associated with these projects. During the hearings of the
first quarterly reports, the department indicated to the committee
that they would like to take over the responsibility of this tender
from the State Information Technology Agency, Sita. The committee
agreed with that. The process needs to be fast-tracked as the 2010
Fifa Soccer World Cup is just around the corner.
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I would like to take this opportunity to again thank the members of
the committee and the staff, for the long hours they spent in
compiling their reports. So, the African National Congress supports
the Adjustments Appropriation Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M SWART: Deputy Speaker, the worldwide recession affected South
Africa much more than we expected. Economic recovery will be slow
and uneven, and the recession has resulted in job losses, business
closures, reduced consumer spending and, therefore, much reduced
income for the state. The expected revenue shortfall of some R70
billion plus will have a serious impact on the spending ability of
government and discipline is required in this regard.
I would like to ask the hon Dubazana to listen to this, and when
looking at the appropriations, one finds considerable spending by
government on social security, which the DA welcomes, hon Dubazana.
It remains a matter of concern, however, that provision is made once
more to bail out poor performing and poorly managed state-owned
enterprises such as the SABC and the Land Bank. How long will
government persist in using taxpayers’ money to hide poor
management, ascribable mainly to affirmative action and cadre
Considering the expected shortfall in revenue, the Minister had to
do a fine balancing act when compiling the appropriations. Thought
had to be given to ways of financing the shortfall. The decision to
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initially do so by way of loans is acceptable, but it will be
necessary to bring expenditure into line with revenue as soon as
possible. The main options open to the Minister are to either cut
spending or raise taxes or both. If government manages taxpayer
money wisely, however, tax increases can be avoided. Major financial
losses occur by way of corruption, as presented to us by the Public
In this regard, they said that 868 cases of financial misconduct by
public servants were reported to them in the 2007-08 financial year.
The total cost reported emanates from unauthorised, irregular,
fruitless and wasteful expenditure, as well as losses resulting from
criminal conduct amounting to R21,77 million in that year. Employees
were found guilty in 709 of the 868 finalised cases of financial
misconduct. However, only 163, which is 22,75%, of the employees
found guilty were dismissed and an amount of just R8,8 million could
be recouped. Criminal proceedings were instituted against only 210
of the employees found guilty.
During that same financial year, 249 senior managers in the Public
Service failed to submit financial disclosures to the Public Service
Commission. This leads one to believe that they might have something
to hide and that we may have seen only the tip of the corruption
iceberg in the Public Service. The Auditor-General’s finding then
is, therefore, not surprising, that as many as 2 300 public servants
benefited from contracts valued at R615 million. Mr Minister, we
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know that you, personally, are serious about rooting out corruption.
You have stressed that, as Members of Parliament, we should all
assist in the fight against and disclosing of any form of
corruption, irrespective of political affiliation. We agree with you
on this, Mr Minister, and we will disclose corruption wherever
You have also asked, just now, that corruption be depoliticised.
Once again, we agree with the principle, as corruption affects
everybody, especially the poor. Corruption, after all, is stealing
money from those who need it most. As parliamentarians, however, it
is difficult to claim the moral high ground, when we sit here with
colleagues guilty of corruption in Travelgate and in all likelihood
many other shady deals. [Interjections.] It becomes even more
difficult when we learn of taxpayers’ money being wasted on the
protection of political officials outside of government, such as
Julius Malema. [Interjections.]
Little or no action has been taken on these issues, other than
protecting comrades in the ANC. The question then is whether we, as
parliamentarians, are setting the right example. The answer is
clearly no. Politics will, therefore, unfortunately remain the name
of the game until such time as we have cleaned up our own act right
here in Parliament. I thank you. [Applause.]
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Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Deputy Speaker, let me just say, on behalf of
Cope, that we will take up the challenge, together with the
Minister, to fight corruption. We won’t be found wanting. We will
join that campaign to fight corruption. Whenever corruption is
unveiled, it is me talking. Whenever we see and unravel that, we
believe that the Ministers will take action on it. So, we take that
call very seriously, and we will bring it to your attention.
Deputy Speaker, dealing with the Appropriation Budget is basically
to deal with the Budget and also address departments on unforeseen
expenditure which departments have to budget for and the shifting of
programmes. But what we have seen in this Adjustments Appropriation
Bill is basically a new trend, on a scale that has not been seen
before, of departments using the words “unforeseen expenditure” and
“unavoidable expenditure” when talking about huge amounts of money.
This, actually, isn’t necessarily due to “unforeseen expenditure”,
but bad planning.
The second thing that we are worried about is a trend that we have
seen in this department of a shift towards and building up of top-
heavy Ministries. We wonder whether this is not the necessary
management of political divergence and the management of various
political interests in the party. Actually, we are worried about the
bloating and top-heavy structures. We are worried about the fact
that some of these shifts are creating top-heavy structures - the
shift of money from functions.
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The last thing that we want to say, Minister, is that it is not
everything about the shift and the creation of the new departments
or the unbundling thereof is wrong. For example, one can look at
education. It is good that in education the issue of post-school
skills is going to be transferred. The 23 Sector Education and
Training Authorities, Setas, are going to be transferred from the
Department of Labour to the Department of Higher Education and
Training. That’s good. We need to support that, because it is about
addressing the challenges that we have.
Then, the period ahead of us is going to be bumpy, because we are
going to make sure that there is accountability. In heeding the call
of the Minister, there will be oversight to ensure that the
department actually sticks to its plans, sticks to its programmes
and that Ministers be held accountable, by appearing before the
committees when they are called and not hide behind the Public
Finance Management Act. The Public Finance Management Act afforded
us the presence of department officials or accounting officers, not
Ministers. Accountability means you appear; you take political
responsibility, because the buck stops with the Minister.
Therefore, as Cope, we want to say we are going to stand up and rise
to those particular challenges, Minister. We want to come to your
committee. I am sure you are going to listen to that. Thank you.
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Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: Madam Deputy Speaker, the IFP carries in
the Adjustments Appropriation Bill its misgivings about the Medium-
Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, as this Bill reflects the
Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement’s missed opportunities and lack
The Bill should have been the tool to begin bringing about the
required structural adjustments which we feel are necessary. This
would have been the time to begin merging the many senior government
institutions, providing essentially the same services to Small,
Medium and Micro Enterprises, SMMEs, thereby avoiding committing
R1,7 billion in the future for the Khula Direct when, effectively,
the National Empowerment Fund can provide the same services, and all
their agencies can be assembled in a matter of weeks or, perhaps,
months, as commercial entities do when merged into a single entity.
This would be the time to shut down the commercially nonviable aero-
manufacturing division of Denel, to avoid recapitalising something
that continues to lose money. It would be the time to privatise
South African Airways, SAA, SAA entities and older State-Owned
Enterprises, SOEs, as an alternative to rising public debt, wherever
it is possible.
It would be the time to transform the Land Bank into a specialised
division of the Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, rather than
recapitalising it with R1 billion, to perpetrate its 20 year
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management crises and corruption track record. It is really a
matter, at this point, of putting good money after bad money, rather
than providing it with the management it needs.
This would be the time to relook government-assisted economical
sectors, which are not viable in the global market place, rather
than increasing their subsidies, and focus it, as it had to be, on
social services. Since 1994, South Africa has not undertaken a
structural transformation of its parastatals and of government’s
industrial policies, with the end result that the pre-1994 mould is
being kept alive, in fear that anything replacing it may be worse.
More suggestions, as the Minister asked, will be coming by letters.
Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Ms B T NGCOBO: Deputy Speaker and members, the Medium-Term Budget
Policy Statement, MTBPS, which we are debating here today is a
statement of courage and hope in the most turbulent time in recent
economic history. We must look beyond this crisis and encourage the
expansion of public services, especially in the areas of education
and health. It is in this spirit that we welcome the MTBPS within
the current difficulties we face.
In this regard, the ANC has set up a programme to improve education
by: progressively expanding the nutrition programme to include high
school learners in poorer communities; improving the national norms
and standards in teaching and learning including providing learner-
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support material and adequate education infrastructure; reviewing
our curriculum to best suit the needs of the developmental state;
reviewing Adult Basic Education and Training to ensure that it
better responds to the skills demands of the country; establishing a
National Education Evaluation and Development Unit for purposes of
monitoring, evaluation and support; expanding the number of no-fee
schools and progressively introducing free education for the poor up
to undergraduate level; improving the conditions of service of
teachers; fast-tracking early childhood development to ensure
universal access to Grade R by 2010 and doubling the number of
facilities available for 0 to 4-year-old children by 2014; and to
enhance the quality of education and skills development focusing on
improving the foundation phase literacy and numeracy and on
increasing the number of learners that pass Grade 12, particularly
in mathematics and science.
We welcome the additional adjustment of R524 million allocated for
workloads on literacy and numeracy for Grade 1 to 6 in Quintile 1-3
schools, and the total adjustment of R561,6 million. An adjustment
of R12 billion for salaries to provinces has been given, however,
this is not specifically for education.
One of the critical areas of spending that will require more
resources over the medium-term is our health care system. We
therefore welcome the department’s ten-point plan and hope that this
will lay the foundation for the universal access to free quality
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health care supported by the National Health System, and
revitalisation of hospitals.
We recommend that our spending on health care over the medium-term
must focus on developing a reliable single health information
system; intervention to reduce the high cost of health provision;
developing recruitment and human resource development strategy for
health professionals and preventing the exodus of health
professionals to other countries; accelerating the roll-out of the
comprehensive health care programme, such as provision of
antiretroviral treatment which will be dispensed at all health
facilities; and accelerating the programme for hospital
recapitalisation and revitalisation including innovative solutions
that will accommodate private public partnership.
The adjusted estimates reflect that the total increase for the
department amounts to R1,3 billion, which includes 17% roll-over
funds from 2008-09.
One of the biggest challenges facing our health care system and
which poses a significant threat to our future is HIV and Aids. The
current death rate from HIV and Aids-related deaths is becoming
higher than that of the birth rate. We must urgently address this
matter with a focus on prevention and treatment.
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Adjusted estimates include R900 million for antiretroviral treatment
and Comprehensive HIV and Aids Care Management and Treatment; R160
million for H1N1 influenza; R20 million for countrywide measles and
polio mass immunisation campaign; R30 million for 2010 Fifa Soccer
World Cup Health preparation strategy grant; general salary
adjustments for the national Department of Health is R11 million;
and for the public entities National Health Laboratory Service and
Medical Research Council, R7,3 and R5,8 million respectively.
We support the adjusted appropriation of R18 billion for health
care. We welcome the MTBPS and wish to congratulate the Minister of
Finance on achieving his tasks under these difficult conditions. We
further welcome the reallocation of resources towards our five key
priorities and look forward to a government that spends more
effectively without cutting back on service delivery. The ANC
supports the MTBPS. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms M N MATLADI: Chairperson, the UCDP accepts the adjustments made
in the Adjustments Appropriation Bill. We, however, would like to
highlight the following: Very few departments do get a clean bill on
audit opinion, which means that most of the units in financial
managements are still wanting. I could give an example of the
Department of Science and Technology, which has received a clean
audit opinion for the previous financial year. Well done! However,
eleven departments still received a qualified audit opinion.
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Of serious concern is the Department of Defence, which received a
qualified audit opinion for seven consecutive years followed by the
Department of Labour, which has four years of qualified audit
opinion and the Department of Public Works had an irregular
expenditure of R5,4 billion.
Underspending by departments is another concern which has resulted
into roll-overs of R1,5 billion for infrastructure and building
projects, and it spells out that work has not been done.
There are major strides taken to improve the Department of Home
Affairs which still has to pay attention to the following: Its
revenue collections - about R356 million revenue couldn’t be
supported by documents in this department; there was an irregular
expenditure of R198,2 million; and corruption is still the main
challenge in the Department of Home Affairs. With these remarks, we
support the Adjustments Appropriation Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]
Dr P J RABIE: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon Members of
Parliament, the brief of the appropriations committee is that of
parliamentary oversight. Allow me to mention that the committee had
a number of public hearings with all government departments, the
Human Science Research Council, the Financial and Fiscal Commission
and a number of independent economists.
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Before I discuss appropriations within a number of departments,
allow me to mention the following - and it has been mentioned before
- the tax revenue has declined and what we need is a leaner and more
efficient Public Service. The downturn in the economy has adversely
affected millions of South Africans and is estimated that by 2009-10
9,7 million, almost 10 million, South Africans, will depend upon
I agree with the hon Minister of Finance that our present social
welfare system places a heavy burden upon a relatively narrow tax
base. Hon members, be assured that the DA is very much in favour of
our present welfare system. The question, however, is, will we be
able to afford this in future? I think, therefore, that it is
extremely important that we encourage sustained future economic
growth if we want to alleviate the plight of the poor. What we need
is a holistic growth strategy which will represent the public and
the private sectors, and will have to take proactive decisions to
address irregularities regarding corruption, fraud, factors which
inhibit service delivery and growth. This came to the fore during
the public hearings.
In an excellent submission to the Portfolio Committee on
Appropriations, the Human Science Research Council reported that 50%
of all households in rural areas experience hunger on a daily basis
and that 50% to 80% could not afford minimum nutrition prices. It
was also reported that rural households spend 9% to 15% more than
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urban ones for the same basket of food. What was extremely worrying
is that 51% of all severely hungry rural households qualified for
grants, but they did not receive them according to Human Science
Research Councils. The DA concurs with the committee that rural
development, household food production and food security need
serious re-examination seen in the light of the steep rise in the
price of basic food.
I represent a rural constituency. Rural economic development must
become a key priority over the next three years. To illustrate the
plight of the rural areas, the Human Science Research Council
submitted that of the 18 Land Redistribution for Agricultural
Development projects, only two are still in place. All the others
have collapsed. Now, the question is why? Somebody must account for
that. I think it is of utmost importance that we address this.
Forty per cent of all South Africans live in rural areas, but less
than 10% are economically active. This untenable state of affairs
cannot be allowed to continue.
Education and higher education will have to address the fact that
more than 50% of the youth leaving school today are unemployed. The
Human Science Research Council suggested in this regard that we must
discuss the possibility of a youth transitional job scheme and
rethink the present school curriculum.
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A number of issues regarding the Department of Health are the
alarming exodus of doctors, dentists, nurses, pharmacists and
emergency personnel. It’s always also mentioned to us that the
campaign against HIV is important and it is expected that more than
900 000 people will receive antiretroviral treatment by the year
It is also indicated that for the past eight years there has been an
underfunding of the public health sector, which has led to
deterioration in the Public Health Service. The proposed new health
insurance will have to be properly costed in the forthcoming
financial year ... [Time expired.] Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr J P GELDERBLOM: Chairperson, hon Ministers and members of the
House, we are indeed living in exciting times with a lot of change
and renewal taking place, also in our government and society at
large. I share the sentiments of all who are grateful for the hard
work that went into the preparation of the Adjustments Appropriation
Bill. This was done in a difficult time where we have to cut, save
and shave in order to tighten our belts.
Many of the so-called adjustments we saw in the Bill - I will
mention but three - provided for the shifting of money to the new
departments to continue uninterruptedly with their functions. This
was, in particular, the case for the Department of Agriculture,
Forestry and Fisheries that replaced the old Department of
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Agriculture, which will cease to exist due to the reorganisation,
and a total of almost R2,8 billion had to be shifted from Vote 23 to
Vote 35. A further R487,6 million is shifted to this new department
from the old Department of Water Affairs and Forestry for the same
reason as the funding follows the function.
The new Department of Water and Environmental Affairs under Vote 43
get R7,4 million from the old department’s Vote 34. For the same
reason, due to function shift, R2,3 million shifted from the
Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs - the
old Provincial and Local Government department - to the new
Department of Rural Development and Land Reform. The whole of the
former Department of Land Affairs is part of the dowry of its
We welcome the changeover to the new model where essential services
are clumped together under agriculture, where water had to shed
forestry to agriculture, and land took over the new function. Most
will continue their tasks without problems.
Under the strains of the current economic climate, we, together with
our officials, have to work smarter with the money allocated in
order to derive the maximum benefit for our people.
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As Parliament and the relevant committees, we will have to keep an
eye on developments and make sure targets are adhered to when we get
to the quarterly reports.
On the roll-overs, an amount of R227 million for the construction of
the De Hoop Dam was necessary. This is to be welcomed as water is
such a precious commodity and we have to provide for future use
under increasingly challenging conditions.
Water and the availability of high quality drinking water stay a
priority and we should not run into any problems in future.
Therefore, it is prudent for us to invest now in water
infrastructure, not only to stimulate economic development, but to
also supply those that still do not have sufficient clean running
water and to prevent our country from running into any tight
corners. We all know of the changes our climate undergoes. We also
know how much we are dependent on this precious resource to sustain
life and future growth. There are also vast sums of money rolled
over to keep the agricultural sector healthy. This is vital for food
security and sustainability.
A major point of focus for the future of our country is rural
development. Agriculture and water will play a very important role
in this. We are happy as the ANC that vast amounts of money had been
contributed to the reform of agriculture. Let me remind this House
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that in the state of the nation address, the hon President Zuma
People in the rural areas also have a right to electricity and
water, flush toilets, roads, entertainment and sport centres as
well as better shopping centres like those in the cities. They,
too, have a right to be helped in farming so that they can grow
vegetables and other things; and raise livestock so that they can
We have developed strategic thinking around rural development, but
we also have to consider many practical directions and new thinking
of how we will take on this challenge against the complex background
of land reform and transformation. It has to address the injustices
of the past, foster reconciliation and stability, stimulate economic
growth and alleviate poverty by improving household welfare.
We need all South Africans to revise their approach to rural reform.
We need innovative thinking as to how we go about acquiring land,
settling people with a view to succeed and be sustainable, but most
important, it is vital to do it in such a way that we arrive at
harmonious and sustainable solutions.
We do not need people who employ resistance tactics, but progressive
ways of solving problems. In this regard there is enough expertise
available to assist in negotiations and concluding the many
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 78 of 185
outstanding matters. We have to work together to improve our output
in this regard. This is where we should employ the innovative
thinking I mentioned earlier.
From our side of the House, that is now the ANC side, we will stay
on course to the goals set out in our founding documents that also
followed its historic course through Polokwane into a modern and
exciting state, gearing for the future that we all long for. A joint
future that brings hope and a better life for all who live in South
Africa. As South Africans, we are a people full of optimism and
working together we can do more to stay relevant in the global
village through discipline, dedication and hard work. We support the
Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, we need to, firstly, remind
ourselves that the Adjustment Budget merely allows for unavoidable
and unforeseeable expenditure to be taken account of.
Let me, firstly, give an assurance to those members who raised
concerns about whether this provision has been applied correctly. I
want to say that it has, that we have been very careful, and that,
in fact, a number of requisitions for funds to be allocated through
this mechanism were turned down, because the Treasury committee, not
any individual, was unconvinced that it amounted to unforeseen and
unavoidable expenditure. There were also a large number of
applications for roll-overs. Not all of them were approved. Only
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 79 of 185
those that had legitimate reasons given, which is largely about
long-term commitments to projects, were actually allowed.
Secondly, let us also give credit where it is due. Many years ago,
underspending was a serious problem in many areas, at provincial and
at national level. Today, underspending in the old form is no longer
a problem. Now the question is the quality of spending and the
quality of outcomes, and whether we are getting the value for money
that we would actually require.
Some colleagues have raised issues about the Municipal
Infrastructure Grant, MIG, during the course of these hearings and
the speeches made today. We are in agreement that this is something
that we need to look at more carefully, given that we want better
and more effective delivery at a local government sphere level. My
colleagues from the Department for Cooperative Governance and
Traditional Affairs will be engaging with us in further discussions
Land restitution, rural development and agricultural development
have been mentioned by several hon members as well. Minister Nkwinti
and we are very mindful of the necessity for more money to be
allocated to land restitution. Let us be frank. We have reached a
point in this process where it is totally unaffordable to carry on
on the old basis. Some new basis has been found, and I am going to
leave it to Minister Nkwinti to address those issues when he
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 80 of 185
interacts with Parliament again. Let us be assured that the focus of
government, as a whole, on agricultural development and rural
development is a very profound one, and, as we move on, we will see
a lot more reserves coming from these two areas. Many of the
thoughts that have been expressed at the podium today will see
fruition I am sure, as we find our feet in these areas. So, there is
a very profound commitment to ensuring that we do create better work
opportunities for our people in the rural areas.
Several colleagues have addressed the issue of bail-outs. Again,
let’s be quite emphatic: Bail-outs are not going to be an endless
mechanism of funding for foolishness, mismanagement, poor judgment,
poor strategic leadership or no leadership at all. We are absolutely
clear about that. So, all of the colleagues on this side of the
House to whom I have responsibilities for State-Owned Enterprises,
SOEs, it is quite clear that over the next period and, already, for
the last few months, we have imposed very tough terms on SOEs that
require state assistance. Those terms mean that this assistance is
not an endless process. It has a very finite purpose. We expect
finite things to be done. We expect the right things to happen
within SOEs. Otherwise, the SOEs, themselves, must actually review
the purpose for their existence.
Cabinet has also decided that there will be a review process for all
of the SOEs, together with the relevant Cabinet colleagues, to
decide whether they still have a purpose, whether they operate as
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 81 of 185
effectively as they can do, whether they duplicate some of their
functions, and whether there can be greater efficiency in the way
they operate. Minister Hogan and I, amongst others, are responsible
for initiating this process.
We also agree with colleagues that greater productivity is required
from the Public Service. Here again, we have to emphasise that we
have to do more with less. Once again, some of our colleagues have
come back to the question of corruption, and are equivocating.
Corruption cannot be qualified. I think we must be quite unequivocal
and quite unqualified about the necessity to root it out. Now, there
are all sorts of ifs and buts that all of us can put forward. The
one message we need to be absolutely categorical and unequivocal
about is that it is not going to be tolerated in any form, anywhere,
by anybody, on any side of this House. [Applause.] That is the
message that we need to get through.
We agree with Dr Rabie, for example, that we want to get the right
balance between welfare and work, between those who are supported by
social grants and the tax base that they actually depend upon. That
is why, over the next while, we are going to have a lot more
emphasis on enterprise creation, entrepreneurship and job creation,
so that we can actually widen our tax base and have, not just for
the purposes of supplying more grants to people but rather to ensure
that people have the dignity of their own income and the ability to
make decisions about their own welfare, on the basis of what they
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 82 of 185
get. A wider tax base will also enable us, as government and as
society, to take on many more challenges that we have, in respect of
both our legacy and our future challenges.
So, let me thank everyone concerned for their contributions and for
their positive support of the Adjustments Appropriation Bill. Thank
Bill read a first time.
ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION BILL
(Consideration of Votes and Schedule)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): The proceedings will
initially take the form of a question and answer session. I shall
put each Vote in respect of which adjustments have been made in
turn, whereupon members will have the opportunity to ask questions
to the relevant Ministers, in respect of these adjustments. Each
party has been allocated a global time for all Votes. Once a party’s
time has expired, they will not be allowed to put further questions.
Members must please press the request to speak button, if they wish
to ask a question. Hon members will please wait until I recognise
them before putting their questions.
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 83 of 185
Vote No 1 – Presidency - put.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, the DA wishes to raise
concern over the extra R7,6 million that has been allocated for the
establishment of the hotline that was originally planned to be
established for R4 million, especially around the fact that the
operational functionality of this hotline is seriously questioned.
However, our greatest concern is the additional R12 million
allocated for outstanding legal fees. Our efforts to determine what
these fees are for have yielded nothing to date. In the absence of
this information, the DA cannot support this adjustment for this
unavoidable and unforeseeable legal expense.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY – NATIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION:
Chairperson, in respect of the hotline, I think that the hon Trollip
would be aware of the fact that there were teething problems in the
early period, but now it is entirely transparent. There is a flow of
information and the responses are there. So, if the grounds that he
opposes it on are the teething problems before the actual launch in
the pilot period, I want to submit that the grounds are pretty
In respect of the legal fees, there are two aspects to this. The one
is that it is very hard to budget for legal fees, partly because
fees are generated, and you can’t, in the middle of the year, say
this particular litigation now has to end. In the course of an
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 84 of 185
institution like The Presidency, anywhere, where there is extensive
litigation, not just in the volume of litigation but also in the
fees, it is something entirely outside of the control of any arm of
government. For this reason, the request was put. The Treasury
committee applied its mind to it, and I am pretty sure that this
will be money well spent.
Mr L S NGONYAMA: Chairperson and hon Minister, the view of the
Congress of the People is that in the current economic and service
delivery challenges facing our country, we definitely would have
preferred that priority is given to funding service delivery
programmes directly, rather than the expansion of the Cabinet, which
cost an estimate of R170 million. Was there no alternative that
could have been found to deal with the challenges facing the
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY – NATIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION: Hon
Ngonyama, I am not quite sure where that view is from, because it
might be way down there. In the context of the number of Ministries,
I think that those who were around in 1994 will know that we moved
straight in. All of the offices were there. But in the course of the
past 15 years, a detailed evaluation was done, led by a team, which
my colleague, Minister Chabane, actually led, that looked at every
Ministry and its performance. It even went through the questions
that I asked here in Parliament about them. Then the team arrived at
a very strong motivation for the expansion of each of these.
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 85 of 185
In the position that I am in presently, in the Planning Commission,
I think it is something that we will debate on at some length
tomorrow, but I think that the one issue that is not in dispute is
that we need a planning capacity that hasn’t been there. I think,
similarly, if you explore all of the other Ministries, it is
necessary to understand that we need to strengthen those who take
policy decisions and those who will be accountable for those
decisions, which is why the Cabinet was expanded in the way it was.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, this is just a follow-up.
We remain concerned, hon Minister, that the cost of establishment
was estimated to be R4 million. We are now allocating double that
again to the hotline. The concern around the legal fees, and I
accept that in the Presidency legal fees are very difficult to
budget for, but we would like to know whether these legal fees have
got anything to do with a legal case that the President was involved
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY – NATIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION:
Again, I think that in the context of the conventions, if people are
entitled to legal representation within the rules, all of these are
aggregated and the decisions on the particular allocations are
entirely fungible within the administration. You cannot say that
there was a case running, arising from the point when his
Excellency, Jacob Zuma, was Deputy President, and now he becomes
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 86 of 185
President and you cut this thing off. I think that in the convention
these things flow together, and it is necessary that we accept that
as a norm.
What you can’t escape from is that government runs in relation to
opposition on the basis of trust as well. I want to look the hon
Trollip in the eye and say that President Zuma, on a number of
occasions, has taken unprecedented steps to work with the
opposition, to afford them opportunities to ask their questions, to
build trust, and it is very important that that be the platform that
we take forward. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Order! I see hon L
Ramatlakane, hon D Carter, and hon H Ndude from Cope. Is it on the
same question? Not on the same question? I am guided by the screen,
because I only put Vote 1 so far, and now you have all pressed. Are
Ms H N NDUDE: Chair, I am covered. My question was on the legal
Mr P F SMITH: Chair, with regard to the adjustment, it is R170
million, of which R96 million is for unforeseeable and unavoidable
expenditure, pertaining largely to the setting up of the new
department, I understand, the new Ministries. My question, Minister,
would be when is it expected that the two Ministries will be fully
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 87 of 185
up and running, the departments fully up and running, as well as the
third department? Are we going to be in a position next year, for
example, where we are also having unexpected, unavoidable
expenditure in respect of departments, which are still in the
process of being established, or will this exercise be completed by
the time of the main Budget next year?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY – NATIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION:
Chair, the numbers for the three departments are quite different.
The Ministry that deals with performance monitoring and evaluation
already has infrastructure in place, because there was always a
Ministry in the Presidency. In the adjustments estimate, there is
provision for the expansion of that unit, so that should move
The Ministry of Women, Children and People with Disabilities will
actually exit from the Presidency and establish its own
infrastructure. That should be dealt with by the time of the Budget
in February. Similarly, depending on what transpires in this House
tomorrow on the Green Paper and the debate in the NCOP next week, we
should, by the time of the Budget in February, have a fixed number.
I think that the relationship that the Treasury would lead
government into with Parliament is to try and provide maximum
certainty, so that the provision for unforeseen and unavoidable
expenditures is used sparingly. That would be the case now; it’s
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 88 of 185
been the tradition, and I would imagine that it would be a
convention carried forward. Thank you.
Vote No 2 – Parliament – put.
Ms J D KILIAN: Chairperson, can I just quickly ask you? One of our
members, member Carter still wanted to ask a question on Vote No 1.
She was mentioned.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Well, I did ask whether there
were any, and then hon Ndude gave up, but we can go back to it then.
Let’s just get you, hon Carter.
No, no, it is their time that they are eating into. Just leave it
that way. It is the rules.
Ms D CARTER: Chairperson, thank you. Cope’s concern is why has an
additional R13 million been allocated for travelling expenses, etc.
However, only R4 million has been allocated towards the Ministry of
Women, Children and People with Disabilities.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY – PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND
EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: You will
notice that a number of new Ministries have been allocated money to
start setting up their administration, as you know most of them are
new. That amount is basically for that purpose, and, as we go into
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 89 of 185
the new financial year, when the systems and the administration have
been put up by the various departments, including this one, whether
a new budget is going to be allocated in accordance with the
functions and the programmes, which will be in those departments.
Basically, that is what accounts for the difference. Thank you.
Vote No 3 – International Relations and Cooperation – put.
Vote No 4 – Home Affairs – put.
Mr M MNQASELA: Chair, in light of the fact that R213 million has
been allocated to the Department of Home Affairs, to a department
that lacks proper financial management, lacks financial leadership
and, of course, displays a consistent trend of qualified audits, I
would like to ask the Minister: How will you ensure that we prevent
this poor financial management in the future? For this reason we are
opposing this increase.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chair, before I even answer the
question, the hon member has decided he is going to oppose. But
anyway, I will answer the question.
First of all, until about two months ago the Department of Home
Affairs had an acting chief financial officer, who had been seconded
from somewhere. Now we have a permanent chief financial officer who
is going to look after the finances of the department.
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 90 of 185
Secondly, it is very clear that the major problem in terms of the
qualification comes from the revenue. The revenue is collected, but
it is not reconciled. So we are training our people in the offices
that they must work almost like a bank, that every day they must
say, this is the service that was requested, this is the amount that
goes with this service, and reconcile every day. If they do that, we
will be on our way to improving the financial management.
The second area of qualification was around asset management. The
assets had been recorded, but the problem came when assets were
moved. The problem was partly that the asset management was
centralised. You cannot sit in Pretoria and be responsible for
assets that are sitting in Pietermaritzburg. In every office there
must be somebody in charge of assets, who will account for the
assets in every office. But if you centralise it, it is very
difficult to maintain good management of those assets. So we are
doing that, but I think hon members must understand that we are
training people to do this. It is not going to be an overnight
thing. We are hoping that it won’t be long before we also have a
clean audit, but it is going to take a few months to do that.
I am just being honest with you, because I believe that I have to
answer questions honestly and give the House an honest perspective.
But it is regrettable that the hon member didn’t even want to hear
the answer before making up his mind. Thank you. [Applause.]
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 91 of 185
Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: Mr Chairman, we heard today from the
Minister of Finance that the allocation to the immigration function
of the Department of Home Affairs is tied to the development of the
card component of the Hanis Project. If I understood that correctly,
the question is in developing the Hanis Project. How much of this
money has already been tied into the decision to implement the smart
card with its microchip component? If that has been implemented, how
much consideration was given to the findings of the Buthelezi
administration of the Department of Home Affairs that the microchip
was a waste of money and the findings of the Prof Haysom Commission
on the matter?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Ngicela angiphindele Sihlalo,
angizwanga kahle ukuthi uthini. [Could he please repeat himself
Chairperson? I could not properly understand what he was saying.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): The Minister is asking you to
repeat the question so that she can understand the question
Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: With pleasure, Chairperson. The Minister of
Finance drew a connection to the smart card. The options on the
smart card are to have a microchip or no microchip. During the
Buthelezi administration of the Department of Home Affairs ...
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 92 of 185
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Order, hon members!
Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: ... a commission was established, led by
Prof Nicholas Haysom, which looked into the issue and decided that
it was a waste of money, and that there were cheaper options. So the
question is: How much of this allocation is already tied to a
microchip smart card to complete the Hanis Project?
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, on a point of order: The request
came from the hon Minister for the hon member to repeat his
question. Will that not eat into our time?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): No, it will not eat into your
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Thank you.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZASEKHAYA: Sihlalo, ungibuza ngento eyenzeka
mhlawumbe ngangisase Mnyangweni Wezempilo, mhlawumbe ngangise
Mnyangweni Wobudlelwane Namazwe Omhlaba, angazi. Kunguye umluleki
wayo yonke lento eyayenzeka. Kodwa impendulo yami ithi: ...
(Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, he is asking me about
something that happened when I might have either been at the
Department of Health or at the Department of International Relations
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 93 of 185
and Cooperation; I do not remember. And he was the consultant for
everything that was happening then. But my answer is: ...]
Regarding the smart card, we have decided, as was decided by my
predecessor, that the smart card is essential for the Department of
Home Affairs, and we continue with that decision. Obviously, when we
start putting together the smart card, we will decide whether it has
a microchip or not. I think it would be necessary to have a
microchip, but we are not there yet. Thank you. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Thank you, Minister. I want
to really caution members that when you ask questions, they must be
related to the subject matter, which is the Adjustments
Appropriation Bill. You should not go all over, around those
Mr P F SMITH: Chairperson, on a point of order: On the matter of
adjustments, is it possible for anybody to adjust the air
conditioning in here?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): They will attend to it. Thank
you for that.
Mr B A D MARTINS: Chairperson, the Minister of Home Affairs, in her
Budget Speech to Parliament, was frank on the challenges faced by
the Department of Home Affairs, and we gave an undertaking, as the
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 94 of 185
portfolio committee, to work hand in hand with the department. As a
result of that process, we have visited all major ports of entry to
South Africa, and we have compiled a report on our visits and the
challenges faced by the Department of Home Affairs.
When we started at the beginning of this year, there was a
turnaround strategy in place to deal with a multiplicity of
challenges, but there have also been successes. I am sure that the
Minister would be able to brief the House on progress that has been
made in regard to challenges found at the border posts and also the
offices of the Department of Home Affairs. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, hon Chair, and thank you to
the chairperson of the portfolio committee. Yes, members would
remember that my predecessor put together the turnaround strategy.
Amongst other things, it would look at how to make sure that an
Identity Document, ID, instead of taking 120 days or more, takes
less time. Processes were put in place, and indeed a process was
also put in place called “Track and Trace”, which allows the
applicant to track and trace where his or her application is. But
the department also uses that “Track and Trace” process to inform
members. Any member here who has applied for an ID recently will
tell you that when they apply, they receive SMSs saying, “we have
received your application”, “now it is being printed”, “now it is
being dispatched”, “now it is in the office where you can collect
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 95 of 185
The turnaround strategy for the ID has resulted in an improvement of
about 50% on the 120 days it used to take ...
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, on a point of order: You have just asked
members to make sure that the questions are related to the
Adjustments Appropriation Bill. What we are dealing with now, is way
beyond that, Sir. I am asking you to instigate your ruling that in
actual fact we focus on the issue at hand, which is the Adjustments
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): I just said that members must
be cautious, so I am hoping that they will be cautious. Let us just
proceed and see the improvement.
Mr M J ELLIS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, it is not just a question of being
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon Ellis, I did make that
ruling. I said caution should be taken.
Mr M J ELLIS: I am asking you, Sir, to implement the Rules as they
should be. This has to do with the Adjustments Appropriation Bill,
and questions should be related to it, and answers should be related
to it. There is no need for any long discussions on other matters.
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 96 of 185
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Correct, hon Ellis. I said
cautionary measures should be taken by members when they ask
questions. Can we allow that then to begin to improve in the House.
Hon members, I think I will make that appeal. However, Minister, you
are on the floor – continue.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Sihlalo, into embi ukuthi laba bantu
bafuna ukuthi kuphendulwe imibuzo yabo kuphela, eyabanye
ingaphendulwa. [Chairperson, the sad thing is that these people want
me to respond only to their questions, and not to other people’s
When it is their questions, relevant or irrelevant, they never stand
up and say, “that question is irrelevant”. When an hon member from
this side has asked the question and I am trying to answer ...
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon Minister is
standing up now and accusing us of things that we actually don’t do.
We are saying that we are asking questions on the Adjustments
Appropriation Bill, and the Minister has no right to stand up and
say that we don’t.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): I get your point. But she
never referred to anybody; she was just generalising. So can we just
allow the Minister to finish? [Interjections.]
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 97 of 185
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Should I continue? How much time do I
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Ministers have unlimited
time, in terms of the Rules. [Interjections.] So can we just leave
it? The more you interject, the more you give them time yourselves.
So just leave the Minister to proceed. These are your Rules.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, hon Chair. Maybe the hon
members must understand what our mandate is. If we talk about
improvement, everything I have talked about is within the mandate of
the Department of Home Affairs, and is within the turnaround
strategy. I have not moved away from the question.
Secondly, I would like to say, since the hon Oriani-Ambrosini was
talking about the microchip, we now have state-of-the-art passports,
which you get in a very short time. I don’t know whether any of you
have applied for a passport recently. The state-of-the-art passport
has a microchip, hon Oriani-Ambrosini, and it has been turned
around. Also, if you have lost your ID, you can get a temporary ID
on the spot. We can scan your finger, and we can verify that you are
on our population register, and we can give you an ID.
Hon members, let me also take this opportunity to say that we have
started, and are going to accelerate, the registration of children
at birth. I hope hon members, during the recess, that you will take
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 98 of 185
the opportunity to encourage their constituents to register their
children. We also want everybody who doesn’t have a birth
certificate to have it within a year. So in your constituencies, hon
members, make sure there is no single person who doesn’t have a
birth registration certificate. [Interjections.] At the end of one
year, we are going to do away with late registration. So they must
do it now.
Also, all people in your constituency must have an ID, because, as
politicians here, we are going to do away with the ID campaign
during elections ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon members, you are being
out of order. That is not parliamentary. You cannot disrupt the
House by clapping your hands, and you know that is completely out of
order. The Minister is responding to a question that was raised, so
can we just allow her to complete the response.
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, again on a point of order: Sir, it is the
same point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Mr Ellis, I think you
misunderstood me. I did not say “do not”; I said “caution should be
exercised”. And “do not” and “caution should be exercised” are two
different things. I just said that “caution should be exercised”
that we are discussing adjustments. [Interjections.]
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 99 of 185
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, I want to question your ruling.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): So on the cautioning, I
appealed to members, but I did not say to members “do not”. I said
“caution should be exercised” that we are dealing with the
adjustments. So the IFP did engage on an issue, and I allowed it.
The ANC has engaged on the issue, and I am allowing them, so I am
being balanced in the probabilities.
Mr M J ELLIS: On a point of order, Mr Chairman: I am questioning
your ruling. I am saying, Sir, that I believe that you are wrong.
You should not allow those questions that are not related to the
Adjustments Appropriation Bill to be put, and neither should
Ministers be allowed to respond to them. I am saying, Sir, that you
should be directing this meeting according to the Adjustments
Appropriation Bill, and nothing else.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Thank you, hon Ellis. Hon
Ellis, I didn’t say people “should not”, and I am repeating that. I
said “caution should be taken” that we don’t go all out. As much as
possible, we should confine ourselves to the matter where possible.
And members will use their judgment. Hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: In conclusion, hon Chair ...
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 100 of 185
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Order, hon members!
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: In conclusion, I want to caution all
of us here: There will be no ID campaign in 2011 during elections.
It will not happen. The ID campaign is now. In 2011 nobody is going
to put Home Affairs in a pressure cooker for an ID campaign. Thank
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon members, can we really
proceed with that caution that I have requested, to ask questions
that are more relevant to the adjustments? Secondly, I know that
this is not the first time that we are dealing with questions to the
Ministers, but I know that in the past the ANC has not participated.
Now I think the ANC has decided to participate. Let us just allow
that procedure to take place and really respect the running of the
House and the Chair. I think the issue of slow-clapping was really
out of order.
Mr M MNQASELA: Chairperson, in light of the explanation by the
Minister, I wonder what a bank does when a teller says, “I fail to
reconcile my account?” Does the bank keep the teller or fire the
teller? What do they do?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Baqalile ke, uma sengibaphendula
bazosokola. [Here they go again, and they will cry foul when I
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 101 of 185
Hon members, obviously when somebody doesn’t do their job, there are
procedures. You give them a first warning, and if they don’t
perform, eventually, you fire them. That is standard procedure. I am
sure in the DA, if people don’t perform and you don’t win elections,
they must fire the person who is supposed to do the work. But, yes,
clearly, we are going to fire people who don’t do the work, but we
train them. As I said in my first response, we are training them.
Because it doesn’t help to just fire somebody when you have not
trained them. Give them an opportunity, train them, and if, after
training, they don’t perform, it means they are not willing to do
so. It is not because they do not know. So the first step is
training. Then after that, we make sure that they perform. Thank
Mnu B W DHLAMINI: Sihlalo, Ngqongqoshe ukhuluma into enkulu uma uthi
abantwana abazelwe ababhaliselwe izitifiketi zokuzalwa, kuthi abantu
abangenabo omazisi bababhalise manje.
La ngakhulela khona eBonjini eSoweto, lapho abantu abazalelwa khona
kungekho ngisho umtholampilo noma isibhedlela - umuntu angabi
nasicucu nje esithi wazalelwa lapho.
Ngabe uMnyango kaNgqongqoshe uzokwenza kubelula yini ukuthi abantu
bakwazi ukuthola usizo, kuthi nongakaze asonte kungashiwo ukuthi aye
kumfundisi ngoba akamazi umfundisi? Ngabe uMnyango wakho uzokwazi
yini ukwenza kube lula ukuthi abantu bakwazi ukubhalisa basizakale,
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 102 of 185
njengokuthi amaLungu ePhalamende, amakhosi, noma amakhansela, akwazi
ukusiza abantu ngokuthi babhaliseke? Ngoba inkinga ukuthi kunabantu
abazalelwe ezindaweni ezisemakhaya ezingenayo imitholampilo noma
izibhedlela. Ngalokho-ke kungabibikho sicucu sokuthi wazalwa, kodwa
bube bukhona ubufakazi bokuzalwa, ukuthi ubani uzalwa umabani
nobani. Ngiyathokoza. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr B W DHLAMINI: Chairperson and hon Minister, what you told us
here is very good when you said that newborns should receive birth
certificates and that people who do not have IDs should register now
to receive them.
In some places like Bonjini, Soweto, a place where I grew up, people
give birth to children without the necessary facilities like clinics
or hospitals, and people do not have any form of identification as
proof of being born in those places.
Could your department make it easy for people to receive assistance,
and that even someone who has never belonged to any church should
not be referred to a minister of religion of some church as they do
not have any? Could your department make it easy for people to be
registered and can Members of Parliament, Amakhosi, or councillors
assist in getting them registered? I am saying this because there
are people who were born in places where there are no clinics or
hospitals. Therefore, they have no proof of existence whilst there
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 103 of 185
is testimony of being born, that so and so was borne to Mrs and Mr
so and so. Thank you.]
I will cautiously make a follow-up, Chair.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZASEKHAYA: Ngiyabonga Lungu eliHloniphekileyo. Yebo,
empeleni sesiqalile ukukwenza lokho. Senze amahhovisi angomahamba
nendlwana. Siqale eSisonke naseLusikisiki. Uma ngabe umuntu efika
engenasicucu simthumela emakomidini esiwakhile esisebenza nawo
kulaba bomahamba nendlwana, ukuzama ukusheshisa. Lawa makomidi
akhiwe ngabantu abahloniphekile abakhona emphakathini. Ngizokwenzela
isibonelo nje, elinye ikomidi linabantu ababengothishanhloko
asebethatha umhlalaphansi, abafundisi, kanye nabanye abantu
abanesikhathi asebathatha umhlalaphansi, ngoba sifuna ukuthi lo
Uma siphuma ngalaba omahamba nendlwana, nekomidi liba khona.
Esikhundleni sokuthi uma ubhalisa kuthiwe hamba uyolanda lokhu,
nalokhuya, uyaye uhlolwe ubuzwe imibuzo khona lapho, kuze kuthathwe
isinqumo khona lapho ngoba abantu bomphakathi bayabazi abantu
bakhona. Bayakwazi nokusheshe bambone nomuntu othi engowakaSithole
kodwa uma bethi kuye: o! unjani Jobe, kodwa yena athi: hhayi! Jobe
mina-Sithole. [Uhleko.] Bayaye basheshe bakwazi ukuthi hhayi lona
nokho...Ngaleyo ndlela, yinto vele ebesesiyiqalile. Sizoyiqhuba kuzo
zonke izindawo, kodwa besisazama ukuthi sibone ukuthi yiziphi
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 104 of 185
izinkinga esizohlangabezana nazo uma siyenza kanje. Kodwa sizokwenza
kube lula. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you hon member. Yes, as a
matter of fact, we have started doing that. We have come up with the
idea of setting up mobile offices. We have launched such offices in
Sisonke and Lusikisiki.
When an individual comes without a piece of identification, we refer
him or her to the committees that we have established to work
together with these mobile offices. These committees are made up of
respectable members of communities. Let me make an example: One
committee is made up of retired principals, retired ministers of
religion and other available retired people, because we want to
expedite this campaign.
When we go on site with these mobile offices, committees come with
us. When registering, instead of being sent from pillar to post, you
are usually assessed by being asked questions on the spot, and a
decision is also taken on the spot, because members of the
communities know people from their own areas. They are also able to
quickly see an individual who happens to be a Sithole, but when
greeted by his clan name, by saying: oh! Jobe, how are you? He or
she responds in broken isiZulu by saying: No! I am not Jobe, but
Sithole. [Laughter.] They are quick to know that no, this one ...
This is what we have already started. And we are going to take this
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 105 of 185
to other areas as we were just putting this on trial to see what
kind of problems we were going to encounter if we did it this way.
But we are going to make it easy. Thank you.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Thank you, hon Minister.
Vote No 5 – Public Works – put.
Mr F T MASANGO: Chairperson, your department hon Minister has been
allocated R150 million for buying houses and offices for the
additional new Ministers and Deputy Ministers. Can the Minister tell
us how many houses and offices he is going to buy and what price
range is that the Minister is looking at, especially the houses?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, when you go home at
night, hon Masango, you go home to a beautifully renovated house in
Acacia Park, nice and comfortable, fully refurbished, public works
spend hundreds of millions of rand on Acacia Park. Some of the
people on this side of the House don’t have a house to go to tonight
and they have to go to a hotel.
So, let’s get our priorities right. The mandate of the public works
is to do exactly that ... [Interjections.] ... to provide official
residences for Ministers and Deputy Ministers, like it does for
Members of Parliament, so I don’t see what the big fuss is. Nobody
asked us how much we spent when our houses were renovated in Acacia
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 106 of 185
Park. Maybe that would be the question we should ask against the
hundreds of millions we spent on the three parks, so that we don’t
distort this issue.
Now, to get back to your question, we are in line with the
requirements of the extended Cabinet and we will provide the
necessary residences and offices. And we will be accountable to
Parliament in the usual manner. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr P B MNGUNI: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, R150 million is
allocated for offices and residences for the new Ministers. Does
this also allow for spending on luxuries, decorations and expensive
hotel accommodation for Ministers? In the same vein, Minister, I
wanted to comment on the R114,5 million allocated to the Community
Works Programme, whilst the Ministers are getting R150 million.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, the answer to the first
part of the hon member’s question is no, the R114,5 million is funds
that have been transferred to the Independent Development Trust,
IDT, the Community Works Programme and the nonwage portion of the
Expanded Public Works Programme.
These figures are available, hon Mnguni, and you know that these
presentations were made yesterday in the committee. This is what was
announced by the Minister of Finance in the Budget and the
Adjustments Estimates actually make it happen. So, if you had
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 107 of 185
listened carefully to the Budget and gone back to read the Minister
of Finance’s Budget Speech, you would have seen that these figures
were there. This is the mechanism to bring the money where it
belongs. I thank you.
Vote No 6 - Government Communications and Information System – put.
Vote No 7 – National Treasury – put.
Vote No 8 – Public Administration Leadership and Management Academy
– put and agreed to.
Vote No 9 – Public Service and Administration – put.
Vote No 10 – Public Service Commission – put.
Vote No 11 – Statistics South Africa – put.
Vote No 12 – Arts and Culture – put.
Vote No 13 – Education – put.
Ms J C KLOPPERS-LOURENS: Chairperson, for the realisation of quality
education in our schools we need to recommit ourselves to quality
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 108 of 185
teaching in our classrooms. Mr Minister, how does the high salary
increases translate to improvement in education delivery and, more
specifically, in the productivity of teachers in their classrooms?
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, thank you hon member.
I fully agree with you that to get quality education indeed we are
reliant on good teachers. For us it is very important to make sure
that our teachers are rewarded accordingly, their contributions are
recognised, and their conditions of services, which include their
salaries, are in order.
The truth of the matter is that, if one looks at the teacher’s
salaries, including the increment one can see that up to now it is
still not where it should be. In terms of the wellbeing of our
teachers, we are currently in a bad situation where our teachers
cannot even afford a decent house. So, it is important for us that
on an ongoing basis we make sure that teachers are given decent
salaries so that their living conditions could reflect that of the
important profession they fulfil.
We agreed, and I think you also agree with me, that we have to
endeavour at all costs to make sure that we keep on improving their
salaries as decent professionals as they are very critical in our
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 109 of 185
Ms F I CHOHAN: Chairperson, with this adjustment government is
really and truly putting its money where its mouth is in the sense
that education has been the priority. And improving literacy and
numeracy is clearly a major priority in this regard.
Five hundred and twenty-four million rand will be going towards
purchasing workbooks for primary school students. This will
basically be dealing a death blow to two of the major challenges
that we have as far as our education system is concerned.
The first is task on time: learning and teaching happening in the
class. The second, of course, is addressing the major challenge
regarding some deficiencies amongst our teachers in terms of
teaching abilities, and so on. With this in mind, Minister, can you
assure the House that workbooks will be on every primary school desk
by the beginning of the year in 2010?
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, just directly to the
question, yes, we are doing all we can to make sure that come the
beginning of the year we will have workbooks given to our children.
More importantly, one of the key contributory factors in education
to improve quality is access to a good textbook.
If you have a good textbook, properly facilitated, you can even
afford to have the poorly qualified teachers that we sometimes have.
So, a resource book is very crucial and critical to education, and
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 110 of 185
because of its critical nature, we are doing all we can, with my
colleagues there, to make sure that come the beginning of the year
2010, the first month, we have books in front of all the learners.
We are hoping that with the money given to us we will even be able
to go beyond the numbers that we thought we could reach. Because our
budgets were based on sending money to provinces, but now that we
are going to procure centrally, with printing centrally and
distributing centrally, we have a sense that we would be able to
give it to all the learners. Unlike what we had committed to before,
that we would only give books to 60% of the learners, with the
centralised procurement we might be able to cover all the learners
in the system, including kids in Quintile 5.
Mr L S NGONYAMA: Chairperson, the Minister last week reported to the
House that outcomes-based education, OBE, will be fazed out. Now, we
have this R524 adjustment on workbooks, does that include Outcomes-
Based Education, OBE, as well, or is that fazed out already?
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, I think that is a very
useful question, because I think we need to clarify things once and
for all around where we are going, so that we don’t have comebacks.
Hon members, what informs a curriculum? Let us talk about the
curriculum of the country and not even use labels because this OBE
has become a red herring. Each time we want to talk about curriculum
people raise OBE.
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 111 of 185
We are saying that a curriculum is informed by principles. The
principles and values which are in your Constitution and as a
country we had framed these as outcomes, these are the principles of
nonracialism, nonsexism, and peace. These are the principles which
were even in your initial curriculum statement that you called OBE.
You can’t throw away those principles as they continue to inform our
What I said last week was that we are within that framework of
outcomes or principles that we had termed as outcomes. What we are
improving on is resources, reduction of work, and changing the
assessment systems. It is important for us that at all times we just
talk about the curriculum and not give it labels, because it is when
we label that we create confusion as to whether we still have OBE or
What we are saying is that we are improving your assessments and
resources, so that it could inform the principle. We said we are
rewriting the syllabi and therefore providing textbooks has nothing
to do with principles. The textbook is going to support your syllabi
or the contents of your curriculum. I think it is quite useful for
us to have a common understanding of what we are talking about,
because we keep on having people asking us if this is OBE or not. It
is neither here nor there.
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 112 of 185
We are talking about a new curriculum for the country and these
workbooks are meant to support that curriculum. When I spoke about
the review, I said some of the weaknesses that were picked up by
that review committee were poor resources in support of the
curriculum. These textbooks are meant to address that problem of
resources in support of the curriculum. I never said we will not
teach children the history of this country. It remains there as it
was always there in the old curriculum and it is going to continue
to be there so that we teach our children the history of this
In the past, we never stopped teaching kids how to multiply. We did
it in the old curriculum and we are introducing resources to empower
that exercise. The knowledge does not change – we are giving
resources to the knowledge part of the curriculum. [Applause.]
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, may I ask a question?
[Interjections.] Chairperson, because you have allowed the debate to
move further away from the estimates, the Minister is now raising
very interesting questions to which we must respond and ask further
questions. Are you going to allow more time because we now have ...
I am addressing the Chairperson and not the hon members ...
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 113 of 185
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Just continue, hon member.
But, hon Mpontshane, as you are addressing me, we are not sure
whether you are already asking your question or not, because this is
going to eat into your time. [Interjections.]
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, seriously, I am asking you, are you
going to allow us more time because ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): No! There was not going to be
any allowance of any time.
Vote No 14 – Health – put.
Mr N SINGH: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, many hospitals in our
country are in a dismal state and the reason that they are not being
refurbished is because there is no money. Could you give reasons why
there was a need for a R183 million roll-over for the hospital
revitalisation grant not spent in the Western Cape and Mpumalanga?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: We have noted amongst other things
that the capacity to absorb the money has delayed our ability to
transfer to the provinces. The Minister met the MECs recently and
together we decided that we shall appoint people with the requested
skills so that they are able to receive the money and engaged with
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 114 of 185
the service providers so that the clearance of the funds can proceed
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, in the National
Assembly on 21 October 2009 the Minister stated that eight of the
nine provinces are likely to run out of antiretrovirals, ARVs,
before the end of the financial year. The allocation of R900 million
towards the Antiretroviral, ARV, Programme is highly welcomed. We
certainly do not want to repeat what happened in the Free State when
health services were cut in a moratorium when the new ARV initiation
was imposed. Many people on the programme did not receive their ARVs
for nearly a month; causing treatment interruptions, possible drug
resistance, and increased opportunistic infections.
During this period it is estimated that an additional 30 people died
per day in the Free State and that the waiting list trebled to
15 000 people. Will the Minister give this House an assurance that
the R900 million allocated, which is R300 million less than what was
requested, is sufficient for all provinces to provide ARVs to all
those that are currently on the programme and those on the waiting
list? I thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, we requested
R1,2 billion and we are grateful for the R900 million that we
received. We have secured a balance of R300 million from donor
funding and, therefore, the whole R2,2 billion, which was based on
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 115 of 185
the careful measurement of the needs in the provinces, will be
available and used to clear all backlogs and enrol all needy
We estimate that this will take our coverage to 1 025 million
persons, which is more than the 700 000 people that we currently
have. We want to give assurance that there shall be no repeat of the
problems and tragedies that we saw in the past. Thank you very much.
Mr D A KGANARE: Chairperson, the R1 billion allocated under
programme two to strategic health and the additional R30 million for
emergency services for the 2010 World Cup does not qualify as
unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure. These were supposed to
have been accommodated in the main Budget. Can the Deputy Minister
explain why these were not accommodated in the main Budget or does
he agree that this is simply poor planning?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, I thought the Adjustment
Budget is not only about unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure.
Sometimes one does so much work that extra money is needed to do
even more work. So, I want to make a plea that the hon member should
read the Adjustment Budget in that context.
Mr E M SULLIMAN: Chairperson, the bulk of the R900 million allocated
for the management of the HIV goes towards antiretroviral drugs, I
would like to know from the Deputy Minister whether they have any
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 116 of 185
plans to try and procure these antiretroviral drugs at a lower price
through, for example, parallel importation. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, the hon Minister
Motsoaledi has repeatedly said, in and out of the House, that the
challenge that we have now is to cover as many people needing
treatment and to have sustainable supplies. He has advised that we
look for the most affordable medicines and other possible supplies,
meaning locally and internationally. We have not ruled out the
possibility of parallel importation; we shall do so with great
sensitivity to local economies and the security of jobs. Our
priority is to get as much of the treatment as possible at the most
affordable price so that we can sustain treatment over as long a
period as possible. Thank you very much.
Vote No 15 – Labour – put.
Vote No 16 – Social Development – put.
Vote No 17 – Sports and Recreation South Africa – put.
Vote No 18 – Correctional Services – put.
Vote No 19 – Defence and Military Veterans – put.
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 117 of 185
Mr D J MAYNIER: Chairperson, we have made some very good progress in
the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans, but four
combat readiness briefings have been cancelled by the Ministry of
Defence. Will the Minister now commit to give the defence force the
green light to brief Parliament on the combat readiness of the SA
National Defence Force; because it will only then judge the effect
of the Budget on Defence and Military Veterans?
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chairperson, I want
to share with the House a bit of intelligence that I got via the
grapevine. Apparently, there was a party for the DA yesterday, and
awards were given to members of the DA. There was an award for “the
most robust Member of Parliament”, “the one who sleeps the most on
benches”, etc. Then, there was one for “guess who will not get a
present from the Minister this year?”. And you know who got the
award? David Maynier. [Laughter.] Congratulations, hon David
I would just like to say to the hon Maynier that upon the production
by the chairperson of a resolution from the portfolio committee
requesting that this briefing be given, with the conditions as laid
out in our laws, I will certainly oblige. I have not received any
request from the portfolio committee based on any resolution taken
by the portfolio committee; so I have no idea what hon David Maynier
is talking about. Thank you.
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 118 of 185
Vote No 20 – Independent Complaints Directorate - put.
Vote No 21 – Justice and Constitutional Development - put.
Vote No 22 – Police – put.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, I am extremely disappointed in the
current governing party, that neither the Minister of Police nor his
Deputy has seen fit to be here this evening. Perhaps ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): The Minister of State
Security will answer the question.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Is he going to answer on behalf of the Minister
of Police? That’s alright. The head of the Directorate for Priority
Crime Investigation, DPCI, was appointed on the 21 May 2009. Today,
nearly six months later, we have seen that they have transferred the
money from the Scorpions to the Hawks.
Could whichever Minister, explain if this is merely officialising
the agreed transfer and that the money has already been utilised in
establishing the Hawks or not? Either way, could he explain to this
House why it seems as if many of the ex-Scorpion members who have
moved to the Hawks have suffered large pay cuts against all labour
legislation and have in many instances stayed for six months with no
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 119 of 185
computers, emails or printers and have been taken off the 639 cases
they worked on while in the Scorpions and have instead been
scattered around the country to the three existing South African
Police Service, SAPS, units: organised crime, commercial crime and
crime intelligence? If those units already existed, what exactly is
the Hawks, except a name?
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY (on behalf of the Minister of
Police): Chairperson, the funny part of it is that while the hon
member was sitting here in the House, she has just released a press
statement, where she claimed that she had some sources within the
police. Our duty is to answer the member’s question on whether the
Directorate for Priority Crime Investigations, DPCI, is functioning.
Yes, it has been established and it is functioning. But some of the
facts that you have just mentioned now, are not correct. Firstly,
there were no salary reductions for any members who came from
Scorpions, as this would constitute a breach of our labour laws.
This is a correct statement. In this regard, your sources were
incorrect. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Secondly, you have indicated that some of the former members of the
Directorate of Special Operations, DSO, did not have computers. That
is not true anymore. However, it is true that there have been some
challenges in the beginning of the integration process. It was not
caused by any level of inefficiency. Part of the main problem was
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 120 of 185
that the lease for some of the computers coming from the DSO had
expired. But the police, particularly the Hawks, moved with speed to
ensure that all the members who needed to do their work had the
necessary equipment. They hired the computers and we are in the
process of ensuring that we are purchasing them with these
adjustments. That is a fact, and I am sorry for saying that it will
be more appropriate that we engage the Ministry rather than going
through these uninformed information peddlers. I thank you.
Mnu V B NDLOVU: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. Kunemali esuswe kumnyango owenza
uphenyo yahanjiswa kwingqalasizinda, ingabe leyo mali izokwenzani?
Angizwa! (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you Chairperson. What will the money that was
moved from the Special Investigation Unit, SIU, to the
infrastructure be used for? I can’t hear you!]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon members, I would like to
hear the question. Qhubeka baba [Continue, Sir.]
Mnu V B NDLOVU: Kunemali esuswe ngapha ngasekuphenyeni yahanjiswa
kwingqalasizinda, manje ngibuza ukuthi laphaya lapho iye khona
kwingqalasizinda iyokwenzani ngoba uphenyo yiwona msebenzi
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 121 of 185
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUVIKELWA KWEZWE (Egameni likaNgqongqoshe
Wezamaphoyisa): Kuyiqiniso ukuthi kukhona izimali ezazikhona kulaba
ababephethe ezophenyo abangazange bakwazi ukuzisebenzisa ngonyaka
odlule. Ingxenye yalezo zimali ithathiwe yafakwa lapha
kwingqalasizinda. Ingxenye yaleyo mali ilinganiselwa kwizigidi
ezingama-R93 zamarandi. Ilungu elihloniphekile lizokhumbula ukuthi
... (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: My question is, for what will the money that was
transferred from the Special Investigation Unit, SIU, to the
infrastructure be used for because investigation is the core
function of the police?
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: (on behalf of The Minister of
Police): It is true that there were some monies that were allocated
to those who are in charge of the Special Investigation Unit, which
they were unable to spend last year. Part of that money has been
transferred to the infrastructure. That money amounted to
approximately R93 million. The hon member will remember that ...]
... the Minister has announced that the cluster agreed to move, in
order to implement the criminal justice review process. Most of that
money will go to the improvement of our systems, particularly,
fingerprinting, which is used by the police. The R93 million will be
moved for a good cause. If the session has not spent the money and
we have new priorities, which we as government have agreed upon, and
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 122 of 185
have been put and accepted by the portfolio committee, it will be
appropriate to move the money to this type of infrastructure. It is
currently needed in order to ensure that we increase our capacity to
deal with crime. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M E GEORGE: Hon Minister, how can protection and security
services get an additional R80,7 million when the amount for crime
intelligence went down, just before the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup?
Secondly, how can detective services be reduced by more than R62
million, notwithstanding the fact that the Hawks will now be
incorporated into Programme 3? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY (on behalf of the Minister of
Police): Chairperson and the hon George, I have just indicated that
in as far as some of the these monies which are being moved are
concerned, the only money that has been injected into the department
is a small amount of about R1 billion, which is dealing with salary
increases. The other money is a shift of unspent funds. Those
unspent funds are not being moved to reduce the capacity within the
In all those units from which the money had been moved, we have
ensured that there is continued capacity to do their work. The money
unspent is moved to the priority areas which I have identified; as
you have indicated, the establishment of the Hawks. We want to
ensure that we have these systems, which you said must link with the
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 123 of 185
rest of the criminal justice cluster in order to ensure a coherent
approach to fighting crime. I thank you.
Vote No 23 – Agriculture – put.
Vote No 24 – Communications – put.
Mr N J VAN DEN BERG: Chairperson, the SABC is a public and not a
state broadcaster. The DA supports Vote No 24 on Communications. The
SABC is a public broadcaster with more than 24 million listeners and
viewers everyday. The people’s broadcaster is the only way to be
connected to the world. We have agreed that the R200 million should
be paid to the SABC to keep its doors open. However, this is not
nearly enough to resolve the financial crisis at the SABC. How will
the balance of the shortfall be funded to ensure that the SABC
remains financially viable? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Hon Chairperson and hon member, we
also agree that the SABC is a public broadcaster that needs to be
supported. Hence the adjustment of R200 million in order to fund its
liquidity, which will be controlled by the Department of
Communications on its monthly management accounts. On a monthly
basis we will check that it spends the money that has been allocated
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No new contracts will be allowed without the Minister’s sanction,
which are worth more than R1 million. We are appointing a new CEO
who has 25 years’ experience and an acting CEO. Currently there is
no CEO. We are working with the interim board, the task team and
Treasury to ensure that the money that SABC got through the
adjustment is well spent. On the shortfall, the SABC is currently
engaging with Treasury, trying to get a government guarantee.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Minister, just ignore the
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: The negotiations are going on in
order to fund the total shortfall that the SABC is currently
experiencing. I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms J D KILIAN: Chairperson, I have a question for the Minister. On
the one hand we are giving a R200 million bail-out to the SABC to
help them overcome the serious financial problems that they are
facing. On the other hand, provision is made in the adjustment
appropriation for a R4,4 million restraint of trade for the former
group CEO. Can the Minister really and morally justify that? I thank
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chairperson and hon member, firstly,
let me start by indicating that the negotiations between the former
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CEO and the board were done without the Minister’s involvement, but
with his support. When the interim SABC board came into office, we
specifically requested that it should begin the stabilisation of the
SABC by, among other things, beginning to address the question of a
CEO, who has been in office there, and who was in dispute with the
old board, but being a defector without him doing any work.
The board had the blessing of the Department of Communications to
ensure that they should settle with the group CEO as soon as
possible. Justification for that was the fact that the SABC had been
in limbo for months. Even now, if the interim board had not
undertaken these steps and had not settled in the way it did, that
situation would still exist.
We think that the board should be commended for taking the steps
that it took in order to, in the first place, consider the stability
of the SABC. Everybody here has praise for the steps that the SABC’s
interim committee has generally undertaken, ever since its
establishment, not long ago. I think it has done well. I thank you.
Vote No 25 – Environmental Affairs and Tourism – put.
Vote No 26 – Human Settlements – put.
Vote No 27 – Rural Development and Land Reform – put.
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 126 of 185
Mr M M SWATHE: Chairperson, as the Minister is aware, the Department
of Rural Development and Land Reform had spent 100% of its current
budget. Given that the adjustment is R292 million, mainly for
salaries, and that the department has commitments of R3,4 billion in
signed contracts with landowners, how will the department finance or
honour these commitments under Programme 4: Restitution?
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Chair, what
the hon member is saying is not correct. We have spent 100% of the
Restitution Budget for this financial year, but not everything.
Secondly ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Order, hon members!
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Secondly, hon
Chair, we have requested an amount of R220 million. We have
reprioritised and discussed this with Treasury. We have agreed that
we can reprioritise and make some money available for clearing the
signed contracts. So that is what we are going to do. It is
therefore not entirely correct to say that we have spent 100% of our
Budget. Thank you.
Ms P DE LILLE: Chairperson, I am very happy to hear that there will
be money made available for the land claims. I just want to ask the
Minister: How long will it take to implement this new system? The
hon chairperson of the portfolio committee can confirm that we have
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received quite a lot of enquiries about outstanding land claims.
Will you settle all the old ones before you go over to the new
system? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Chair, I am
not sure about the new system. Maybe the hon member could explain
that and then I can respond. I would like to be pointed in my
Ms P DE LILLE: Yes, hon Chairperson. The hon Minister of Finance
said earlier on that we cannot continue with this old system of
willing buyer, willing seller, in terms of which government needs to
pay three times the market value, and we have to look at a new
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Fine,
Chairperson, now I understand. Hon Chair, the willing buyer, willing
seller model is government policy, as we speak. It is under review.
We are going to present to this House, next year, a Green Paper for
discussion. We have already developed the framework, and we are busy
developing that ourselves. We want to present to government a
proposal as to how we go about changing that.
Secondly, because it involves a lot of people, we are also
consulting with the people who are affected by this. People have
been working on the policy, and they have been planning according to
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that. So we can’t say today that on date x this is what we are going
to do, but certainly, I can imagine that hon members will
participate in this Green Paper and we expect that they will assist
us in finding a much fairer solution than the willing buyer, willing
seller model that we have today.
Mr T BOTHA: Chair, hon Minister, given the failure to urgently
address the issue of land redistribution and restitution, which is a
potential time bomb, and given the sensitivity and importance of
land redistribution in this country for the stability of the
country, can the hon Minister explain the decrease in the allocation
of funds to land reform grants under Programme 5, and the impact
thereof on land restitution goals?
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Thank you, hon
Chair. I imagine that the hon member is referring to Subprogramme
5.05. We are faced with a challenge in rural development. The
challenge that hon members keep raising, as the hon Swathe and the
hon De Lille have done now, is indeed a challenge. Now, we have had
to reprioritise. I think that is really what I have been referring
to. We have had to reprioritise, in order for us to be able to clear
The challenge is this: Once you have signed the settlement
agreement, what will happen is, if you don’t pay, the costs will
escalate, because you will have to pay interest. A complicating
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factor is that some people have gone to court. The department has
been taken to court. As we speak, there are cases that are before
the court. There are two types of cases. In one the matter might be
settled in court today and we might be called on to pay today –
those cases amount to R377 million, as we speak. We don’t have that
money. The other type of case that is before the court are those
where the court might say, you have agreed, settle. In other words,
it is a performance issue – and these cases amount to R202 million.
Now, once the court takes a decision, we have to comply with that.
We have had to position ourselves in order to be able to meet that
challenge when it comes about. It is not something that we like, but
it is something that we have to do, given the constraints that we
are faced with right now. Thank you, hon Chair.
Mr P S SIZANI: Chair, seeing that R250 million in the Additional
Appropriation has been earmarked for the new Comprehensive Rural
Development Programme of the new department, can the Minister tell
us whether this money will target poverty and unemployment in the
rural areas, and in what way will the Ministry be able to deal with
the poverty that we are experiencing in those areas?
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Chair, the
hon Swathe has referred to this amount of money, and has said that
it would mainly go to salaries. Actually, we got R289 million, I
think. Of that R289 million, R250 million will go to service
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delivery. That is what the hon chair of the portfolio committee is
asking. I am happy that he has asked this question, so that I can
explain the points further.
Now, of the R250 million that he has referred to here, R90 million
will go to fencing, for ploughing and grazing land, across the
country, or rather, in the nine provinces. So that is service
delivery, in our view, and, in agreement with the provinces, that
money will be used to create jobs. But there will also be an element
of quality control, for which we have an agreement with the Ministry
of Public Works, so that we can make use of the Independent
Development Trust. Of course, in Mpumalanga we are using their
trust. There is a trading trust in Mpumalanga, where we have already
provided, between August and now, 260km of fence. In KwaZulu-Natal
we are using Ithala. So we are creating jobs through that. In the
Eastern Cape we are negotiating to use Asgisa EC to ensure that the
quality of the fence that we are erecting is good. So this is what
is going to happen all over the place in terms of that.
With regard to the remaining R160 million, we are working with Fort
Hare University, which is helping us in doing other things. Amongst
these other things, we want to develop an agripark, particularly in
Mpumalanga, because there is plenty of water in Mpumalanga. We have
discussed the possibility of getting land there with the Premier a
couple of weeks ago. We will get land, actually, to create an
irrigation facility, and then we can start producing vegetables
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there. But we also want to encourage, with that same money, food
gardens, so that people can sell there. We want to create a market
through the agripark, as well as a processing plant, so that we can
process vegetables into vegetable soup. So we are going to create
We are also intervening in health facilities. If we get to a rural
area where there are no clinics, or the mobile clinics come once a
week or so, or don’t come as often as they should, this relates to
the problem of the roads infrastructure. We are intervening there.
So that money is going to go to food gardens, to roads, to fencing
gardens - because this we must do - and to water.
The hon Minister for Agriculture has really done government a lot of
good. Consider, for example, the refining of water in places such as
Masha, where you have water constraints, not just because water is
scarce, but because of the quality of the water. So the Minister has
come in, but the Minister of Communications also has come in, in
relation to the e-centres to follow. The Minister of Energy is
coming in for electrification in all these places. So we are not
working in terms of creating this infrastructure ourselves. We
create opportunities for other departments to come in and do the
The R160 million will certainly be spread a little wider than the
one place, that is Masha, but across the provinces. Also, we will
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initiate, and the other departments will come in and complete the
job, whether it concerns health facilities, or schools, or other
things. We will do that in Mpumalanga, because the Department of
Education may not be ready yet, but we are ready to assist there in
Mpumalanga. There is one school where children from seven grades
have to study in one room, and we have to intervene there.
So the money is not going to go to salaries. It is not correct to
say so. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote No 28 – Minerals and Energy – put.
Vote No 29 – Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs – put.
Mr P F SMITH: Chairperson, Minister with regard to this nice
booklet, here, the Treasury Regulation System specifies that
unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure excludes the following two
things: Firstly, spending increase due to tariff adjustments and
price increases. Secondly, spending to extend existing services
beyond the unforeseeable; unforeseen. Now, in your budget, there is
an amount of R509 million under unforeseeable and unavoidable
expenditure allocated for increase costs or to provide free basic
electricity. Presumably, that’s impossible because of tariff
increases; and the other explanation would be, presumably, the roll-
out, which is beyond expectations. It’s hard to believe, since there
is a service delivery crisis, which makes it difficult to believe
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 133 of 185
that there has been such a heavy success. What is the R 109 million
for, if it’s not for those two issues? And how are our
municipalities compensated for tariff increases by Eskom? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Chairperson, it’s quite interesting to hear member Smith trying to
describe the situation in municipalities, as if it’s a crisis. In
relation to the issues that are there, for all intents and purposes,
he’s misinterpreting it. There is no doubt that there are
challenges, but these are not crises. This is a misrepresentation of
the facts; in fact, that statement is bordering on misleading the
Responding on the issue of what will happen to the money and how to
ensure that we compensate for the increases; I think hon Smith has
answered his own question, that the amount of over R500 million is
aimed at ensuring that it assists the poor in relation to the
forthcoming tariff increases. Therefore, it is a matter that has
been taken care of.
The second matter is an issue around the increase of R900 million
which is dealing with supporting the poor in relation to tariff
increases. The situation, Mr Smith, in municipalities is that they
are undergoing a turn-around process; there is no crisis. Don’t
describe it the way you do. Those are challenges that are within our
power to be addressed.
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 134 of 185
Mr P F SMITH: I have a follow-up ...
Mr W P DOMAN: Chairperson, hon Minister, you are asking us to vote
for R288 million of roll-over funds for the infrastructure frant
programme; my question is, how are you and you department going to
ensure that this money is spent, not on running costs by
municipalities, but on infrastructure and when, if this illegal
practice, which we heard of from the Minister of Finance, occurs,
will you take steps?
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Chairperson, there are lot of things to consider when talking about
the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, MIG; it is not an accurate
answer. One of the issues is that most of these municipalities with
these challenges do not have the capacity to deliver. As the
department, both provincially and nationally, we are intervening to
ensure that the money is well spent.
We are also exploring other measures, because in the past the
department had a Municipal Infrastructure Investment Unit which was
a structure aimed at ensuring that infrastructure is rolled out in
municipalities as expected by the national department. The unit was
abolished, but we are looking for other possibilities of reviving
it. We have realised that MIG cannot be in a position to deal with
the challenges prevailing in municipalities; we are therefore
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looking at the possibility of a special purpose vehicle which will
be able to roll-out infrastructure.
We have quantified everything across the country and these issues
will be taken up. As an interim measure, the department is ready to
ensure that it assists municipalities with this issue and see to it
that they never occur again. Thank you very much.
Vote No 30 – Public Enterprises – put.
Vote No 31 – Science and Technology – put.
Vote No 32 – Trade and Industry – put.
Vote No 33 – Transport – put.
Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Hon Minister, with regard to the additional
R116 million payment for the transport disaster management grant for
the rehabilitation of infrastructure destroyed by flooding in the
Western Cape in 2008, considering that this was a natural disaster
and was declared so, should this amount not be paid from the
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, yes the money for this
disaster does come from Transport, unless there is other contingency
funding elsewhere. Once there is a disaster, everybody looks at
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 136 of 185
Transport. For instance, if a road is damaged or a bridge is broken
during a disaster, we can reclaim whatever money is available
elsewhere. As Transport, we only move in as an emergency measure. I
Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Hon Minister with regard to Programme 6 for an
additional R144 million allocated as a transfer payment for the
Gautrain Rapid Rail Link grant for inflation and foreign exchange
adjustments, why were these costs not factored in to the initial
contracts under condition of contract price adjustments?
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: In terms of the contract, if the amount
was factored in or there was escalation in terms of inflation, we
are liable for paying. That is what we are doing.
Mr M S F DE FREITAS: I am sorry, Chairperson. This is the last one.
My question is with regard to the departmental revenue of R198
million from transaction fees for vehicle registrations that will be
used for the maintenance of the electronic National Traffic
Information System, commonly known as eNatis. Originally, this fee
was paid to Treasury to offset their extra cost for the system. Why
was this amount not paid to the Department of Transport instead? I
The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: As the member is aware, we have
introduced the Road Traffic Management Corporation, RTMC. In order
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for it to function, this amount had to be allocated so that we can
be able to implement our RTMC and be able to go out on the road
safety campaign properly, particularly the demerit system that we
will be introducing next year. All that will depend on the proper
functioning of the RTMC. [Applause.]
Vote No 34 – Water Affairs and Forestry – put.
Vote No 35 – Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries – put.
Mr L L BOSMAN: Chairperson, hon Minster, under Programme No 3,
Agricultural Support Services, a provision was made for an
agricultural disaster management grant of R156,9 million to provide
for disaster management in all nine provinces. In the Government
Gazette of 8 September 2009, a declaration of the provincial state
of drought disaster in the Eastern Cape province, six district
municipalities were declared as disaster areas. The assessment
report estimated a damage of R1,184 billion.
This is only one of a number of drought disaster areas with a
possible total damage, much higher than this figure. How does the
Minister plan to assist communities who suffered losses or are in
need of water with financial support, in the view of the limited
budget provided in this programme, and at what timeframes? I thank
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 138 of 185
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson and
hon member, the state cannot be an insurance policy broker for
farmers. The state cannot substitute insurances for farmers. Our
first prerogative is to get farmers to take out insurance policies
so that they cannot be totally dependent on the state disaster
Where disaster does occur, it is not incumbent on the state to
recoup farmers’ losses. Ours is not to balance out the losses. In
any business you will have losses and you must ensure that you
actually make provision for them. As in the past, you cannot be
totally dependent on the state to pay for all your losses,
particularly when it comes to disasters.
With disaster management, we only refund farmers on production costs
and infrastructure costs on farm settlement disaster management.
When it comes to all farm disaster management, for example, roads
and other infrastructure projects, we are dependent on the other
line function departments, like the Department of Transport and the
Department of Human Settlements to assist in other areas should
there there be disasters.
Our intention is not for agriculture to cover the entire disaster,
but only some areas. I thank you. [Applause.]
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 139 of 185
Mr L L BOSMAN: Hon Minister, yes I agree with you that there should
be schemes available that must also be assisted by government. But I
just want to point out that I specifically asked this question in
the Eastern Cape, because it was not only farmers who were involved
in the disaster areas, but even the community and poor people, who
don’t have water or resources to recuperate their lands and so on.
I think this is the list that government can do something about, to
look after these people, because they are poor and resource poor. I
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Hon
Chairperson, in my response I did not refer to any particular group.
To me farmers are emerging, smaller, older, medium or commercial
farmers. They are all treated equally when it comes to disaster
In the Eastern Cape, yes, there were six districts declared disaster
areas. Agriculture does not fund anything like roads and housing.
Those areas where affected in more areas than only agriculture. We
only support agriculture-related projects. In the Eastern Cape, we
disaggregated the expense and are convinced that what we are going
to refund to those communities, which are agriculture-related, will
be within our budget. I thank you. [Applause.]
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 140 of 185
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon M N Magazi. I thought
maybe you had pressed the button. Please don’t play with the buttons
then. Stay away from them. I thank you. [Interjections.] It is on
the screen, so I am not just accusing you.
Vote No 43 – Water Affairs – put.
Discussion on Votes and Schedule concluded.
Vote No 1 – Presidency – agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Congress
of the People dissenting).
Vote No 2 – Parliament – agreed to.
Vote No 3 – International Relations and Co-operation – agreed to.
Vote No 4 – Home Affairs – agreed to (Democratic Alliance
Vote No 5 – Public Works – agreed to.
Vote No 6 – Government Communications and Information System –
Vote No 7 – National Treasury – agreed to.
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 141 of 185
Vote No 8 – Public Administration Leadership and Management Academy
– agreed to.
Vote No 9 – Public Service and Administration – agreed to.
Vote No 10 – Public Service Commission – agreed to.
Vote No 11 – Statistics South Africa – agreed to.
Vote No 12 – Arts and Culture – agreed to.
Vote No 13 – Education – agreed to.
Vote No 14 – Health – agreed to (Congress of the People dissenting).
Vote No 15 – Labour – agreed to.
Vote No 16 – Social Development – agreed to.
Vote No 17 – Sport and Recreation South Africa – agreed to.
Vote No 18 – Correctional Services – agreed to.
Vote No 19 – Defence and Military Veterans – agreed to (Democratic
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 142 of 185
Vote No 20 – Independent Complaints Directorate – agreed to.
Vote No 21 – Justice and Constitutional Development – agreed to.
Vote No 22 – Police – agreed to (Congress of the People dissenting).
Vote No 23 – Agriculture – agreed to.
Vote No 24 – Communications – agreed to.
Vote No 25 – Environmental Affairs and Tourism – agreed to.
Vote No 26 – Human Settlement – agreed to.
Vote No 27 – Rural Development and Land Reform – agreed to (Congress
of the People dissenting).
Vote No 28 – Minerals and Energy – agreed to.
Vote No 29 – Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs – agreed
Vote No 30 – Public Enterprises – agreed to.
Vote No 31 – Science and Technology – agreed to.
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 143 of 185
Vote No 32 – Trade and Industry – agreed to.
Vote No 33 – Transport – agreed to.
Vote No 34 – Water Affairs and Forestry – agreed to.
Vote No 35 – Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries – agreed to.
Vote No 43 – Water Affairs – agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.
ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION BILL
(Second Reading debate)
There was no debate.
Bill read a second time.
The House adjourned at 20:17.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 144 of 185
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
1. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
(1) The JTM in terms of Joint Rule 160(6) classified the following Bill as a section 75 Bill:
(a) Repeal of the Black Administration Act and Amendment of Certain Laws
Amendment Bill [B 15 – 2009] (National Assembly – sec 75).
1. Membership of Committees
(1) The following members have been appointed to the Ad Hoc Committee to conduct co-
ordinated oversight on service delivery under the theme, “ Working Together to Ensure the
Delivery of Quality Service to Communities”:
Borman, Mrs G M
Boshigo, Ms F D
Botha, Ms Y
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 145 of 185
Kenye, Mrs T E
Luthuli, Dr A N
Matshoba, Mr J M
Maake, Mr JJ
Makhubele, Mr Z S
Mandela, Nkosi Z M D
Manganye, Ms J
Mathebe, Mr P M
Mavunda, Mr D W (Alt)
Mdaka, Ms N M
Mdakane, Mr M R
Mushwana, Mrs F F
Nchabeleng, Mr M E
Nelson, Ms W
Ngwenya-Mabila, Ms PC
Nhlengethwa, Ms D G
November, Mrs N T
Selau, Mr G J
Segale-Diswai, Ms M J
Sizani, Mr P S
Tsenoli, Mr S L
Williams, Mr A J
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 146 of 185
Doman, Mr W P
Kopane, Mrs S P
Motau, Mr S C
Steyn, Mr A C
Swathe, Mr M M
Waters, Mr M
Wenger, Ms M
Botha, Mr T
Kganare, Mr D A
Mda, Ms A
Ndude, Ms H N
Dandala, Dr M H (Alt)
Cebekhulu, Mr R N
Dhlamini, Mr B W
Msimang, Mr C T (Alt)
Smith, Mr P F
Gaehler, Mr L B
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 147 of 185
Ntapane, Mr SZ
Bhoola, Mr R B
McGluwa, Mr J J (Alt)
Ditshetelo, Mr I C (Alt)
Groenewald, Mr P
(2) Mr S L Tsenoli has been elected Chairperson of the Ad Hoc Committee to conduct co-
ordinated oversight on service delivery, with effect from 11 November 2009.
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1. The Speaker and the Chairperson
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 148 of 185
(a) A copy of the recommendations of the Independent Commission for the Remuneration of
Public Office-Bearers in respect of salaries, allowances and benefits of public office-bearers
for 2009/2010 was submitted to Parliament on 11 November 2009 in accordance with section
8(5) of the Independent Commission for the Remuneration of Public Office-Bearers Act,
1997 (No 92 of 1997).
2. The Minister of Social Development
(a) Report of the Central Drug Authority (CDA) for 2008-2009 [RP 252-2009].
1. The Speaker
(a) Policy Imperatives: Parliament 2009 - 2014.
(b) Letter from the Minister of Social Development dated 05 November 2009, to the Speaker
of the National Assembly explaining the delay in the submission of the Annual Report of
the Central Drug Authority for 2008-2009.
TABLING OF THE CENTRL DRUG AUTHORITY 2008/2009 ANNUAL
REPORT IN PARLIAMENT
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 149 of 185
In terms of Section 2 (11) (a) (b) of the Prevention and Treatment of Drug Dependency
Amendment Act (Act, 20 of 1992), the Executive must table the Central Drug Authority
(CDA) report in the National Assembly.
In addition hereto, the Public Finance Management Act, Act No. 1 of 1999, as amended,
requires in terms of section 65 (2) a written explanation by the Executive to be tabled in
Parliament with reasons for non compliance.
There was a delay in the finalisation of the CDA Annul Report 2008/09 CDA due to late
receipts of reports from various national government departments, represented on the
CDA. The report‟s design and layout took long to be completed by the relevant units of
the National Department of Social Development (DSD).
Enclosed herewith is a copy of the 2008/2009 Annual Report for official tabling.
Accordingly, I humbly appeal to Parliament to accept the CDA Annual Report for
2008/2009 for tabling in the 4th Parliament and consider an integrated oversight review
and referral process on this matter.
MRS B E E MOLEWA, MP
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 150 of 185
1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the
provisional suspension from office of Magistrate CM Dumani, dated 11 November 2009:
The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the report on
provisional suspension of Magistrate C M Dumani, a Magistrate at Graaf Reinet, pending the outcome
of an investigation into his fitness to hold office as a magistrate, as required in terms of section 13(3)
(a) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act no 90 of 1993), reports as follows:
1. The Committee notes from the report tabled by the Minister for Justice and Constitutional
Development that the Magistrates Commission resolved on 30 July to recommend that Mr CM
Dumani be provisionally suspended from office in terms of section 13(3)(a) of the Magistrates
Mr Dumani is alleged on four different occasions to have conducted himself in an unbecoming and
embarrassing manner by stroking the cheek of a cleaner and security officer; tickling the back of the
neck of a cleaner; and sticking his hand between the breasts of the clerk of court. Mr Dumani denies
On 5 March 2009, the Commission resolved to charge Mr Dumani with four counts of misconduct.
The inquiry was set down for 15 May 2009, but did not occur. It was then set down for 5 and 6 August
11 NOVEMBER 2009 PAGE: 151 of 185
On 6 March 2009, the Commission asked Mr Dumani to give reasons why he should not be
provisionally suspended. Mr Dumani‟s legal representative indicated that Mr Dumani did not wish to
make representations regarding his provisional suspension.
2. In terms of section 13(3)(c) of the Magistrates Act, 1993, Parliament must, as soon as is
reasonably possible, pass a resolution as to whether or not the provisional suspension of a
magistrate is confirmed.
3. Having considered the Commission‟s report on the provisional suspension, the Committee
recommends that the National Assembly confirm the provisional suspension of Magistrate C M
Dumani, pending the outcome of an investigation into his fitness to hold office as required in
terms of section 13(3)(b) of the Magistrates Act, 1993.
Report to be considered.
2. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the
provisional suspension from office of Magistrate NE Ndamase, dated 11 November 2009:
The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the report on
the provisional suspension of Magistrate NE Ndamase, a Magistrate at Pretoria, pending the outcome
of an investigation into her fitness to hold office as a magistrate, as required in terms of section
13(3)(a) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act no 90 of 1993), reports as follows:
1. The Committee notes from the report tabled by the Minister for Justice and Constitutional
Development that the Magistrates Commission resolved on 29 and 30 July to recommend that
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Ms NE Ndamase be provisionally suspended from office in terms of section 13(3)(a) of the
Magistrates Act, 1993:
2. On 10 November 2009, the Magistrates Commission briefed the Committee on the contents of
the report: The Commission decided to charge Ms Ndamase with misconduct in terms of
Regulation 26(1) of the Regulations for Judicial Officers in Lower Courts, 1994. It is of the
opinion that there is enough prima facie evidence to support the charge(s). There is an ongoing
process to obtain further evidence. On 29 and 30 July 2009, the Commission resolved to
recommend that Ms Ndamase be provisionally suspended, pending the outcome of the
misconduct inquiry. The report and supporting documents give reasons for this
3. In terms of section 13(3)(c) of the Magistrates Act, 1993, Parliament must, as soon as is
reasonably possible, pass a resolution as to whether or not the provisional suspension of a
magistrate is confirmed.
4. The Committee is of the view that the issues raised by this matter are complex, pointing to
problems of transformation within the judicial system. It is not helpful to look solely at an
individual‟s conduct, while ignoring the broader context. Of particular concern to the
Committee is the „gatekeeping‟ role that language proficiency plays within the justice system,
and the frustration this engenders. The Committee is aware that there are no „quickfix‟
solutions but believes that much needs to be done, and urgently, to address this problem.
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5. As part of its oversight function, the Committee intends to embark on regular visits to our
courts to gain insight of the problems they grapple with daily. In the first quarter of 2010 the
Committee will arrange to visit the Pretoria Magistrates Court.
6. The Committee also intends to engage more closely with the Magistrates Commission to better
understand its role, as well as the systemic challenges facing our judicial system and possible
solutions to these. It would be particularly interested in the Commission‟s views on whether it
has a mediatory or conciliatory role in matters such as these. It urges the Commission to
explore this possibility in this particular matter.
7. Having considered the Commission‟s report on the provisional suspension, the Committee
recommends that the National Assembly does not confirm the provisional suspension of
Magistrate NE Ndamase.
Report to be considered.
3. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the
removal from office of Magistrate TC Oliphant, dated 10 November 2009:
The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the report on
the removal from office of Magistrate TC Oliphant, tabled by the Minister for Justice and
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Constitutional Development in terms of section 13(4)(a) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act 90 of
1993), reports as follows:
1. The Magistrates Commission resolved on 4 March 2009 to recommend that Ms Oliphant be
removed from office on the ground of misconduct.
2. In terms of Regulation 34(1) of the Regulations of Judicial Officers in the Lower Courts, 1994,
if a Magistrate is absent from office without leave or a valid reason for more than 30 days, he
or she is deemed to have absconded and is guilty of misconduct.
3. In terms of section 13(4)(a) the Minister must suspend a Magistrate if the Magistrates
Commission recommends his or her removal on the ground of misconduct. On 10 March 2009,
the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development tabled a report on Ms Oliphant‟s
suspension from Office. A report on the withholding of remuneration of Ms Oliphant was
tabled on 24 March 2009 in terms of section 13(4A)(b) of the Magistrates Act, 1993.
4. In terms of section 13(4)(c) of the Magistrates Act, 1993, Parliament must, as soon as is
reasonably possible, resolve whether to recommend that a Magistrate, who is so suspended, be
restored to office or not.
5. Ms Oliphant was alleged to have been absent from office without leave (1) from 25 April 2008
to 10 November 2008; and (2) from 17 November 2008 to date.
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6. First period of absence (25 April 2008 – 10 November 2008)
a. A preliminary investigation was conducted into Ms Oliphant‟s absenteeism and her alleged
conduct on 7 February 2008 towards Mr Nyembezi, a prosecutor at the court over which she
b. On 25 September 2008, the Ethics Committee for the Magistrates Commission considered the
preliminary investigation report. It resolved that Ms Oliphant not be charged with misconduct,
but that she be asked to appear before it.
c. At the meeting of the Ethics Committee on 6 November 2008, Ms Oliphant indicated that she
would resume her duties at Wynberg on Monday 10 November 2008:
i. She told the Committee that she had been suffering from major depressive disorder and that
she had been admitted to a Psychiatric Clinic from 2 to 24 April 2008. She produced a
medical certificate for this period (2 - 24 April 2008) but did not apply for leave or produce
medical certificates supporting her absenteeism from office for the period 25 April to 5
ii. Ms Oliphant also informed the Committee that she felt that she was fit to resume the
functions of a magistrate. The Committee asked that she obtain a written report from her
medical practitioner confirming that she had recuperated to such an extent that she was able
to resume her duties as a magistrate.
iii. A meeting was scheduled with the relevant Judicial Head, Ms Tongeni, at Wynberg on 20
November 2008. Ms Oliphant undertook to provide Ms Tongeni with a written report from
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her medical practitioner, as well submit the outstanding leave forms and medical
iv. Ms Oliphant failed to attend the meeting and failed/refused to submit the outstanding leave
forms. She did not communicate with her Judicial Head of Office in this regard at all and
attempts to contact her were not successful.
7. Second period of absence from office (17 November 2008 to date)
a. On 4 December 2008, the Ethics Committee was informed that Ms Oliphant had resumed
duties at Wynberg on 10 November 2008. She remained present until 14 November 2008, but
from 17 November 2008 was once more absent from office.
b. On 5 December 2008, Ms Oliphant was informed in writing that her conduct amounted to
serious misconduct. She was advised that should she fail to report for duty and or fail to inform
her Judicial Head of Office of her whereabouts by 17 December 2008, she would be deemed to
have absconded and that she would have made herself guilty of misconduct. She was also
advised that this might lead to the Commission recommending to Parliament that she be
removed from office in terms of section 13(4)(a)(i) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act 90 of
c. An attempt was made to serve the letter on her personally, but she was not present. The letter
was left on a chair in the living room through an open window.
d. On 14 January 2009, two Judicial Quality Assurance Officers, both Magistrates from the
Pretoria Office, made a final effort to trace Ms Oliphant. They visited her place of residence in
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Mitchells Plain. The windows were closed and the curtains drawn. They came back later in the
day, where they found Ms Oliphant and a friend at home. During a 20 minute conversation
with her, she was asked 3 times why she was not at the office. She did not give any
explanation. She was also urged to contact her Judicial Head, the Chief Magistrate, Wynberg,
and to report for duty without delay. To date, she has failed to do so.
8. On 26 August 2009, the Magistrate‟s Commission briefed the Portfolio Committee on the
events that caused it to recommend that Ms Oliphant be removed from office.
9. At the meeting, the Committee requested that the Commission give Ms Oliphant one more
opportunity to submit her medical records. The Committee asked the Commission to try once
more to contact Ms Oliphant, specifically asking her if she wishes to submit any written
representations regarding her medical situation since April 2008, and to submit any medical
reports that might substantiate why she had been prevented from resuming her official duties. It
asked that Ms Oliphant be given 2 weeks to respond, and that the Commission inform the
Committee of her response, if any.
10. A letter was sent to Ms Oliphant on 27 August 2009 (she acknowledged receiving the letter),
but no response has been forthcoming.
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a. The Portfolio Committee recommends that the National Assembly resolve to recommend that
Ms Oliphant not be restored to office as a Magistrate in terms of section 13(4)(c) of the
Magistrates Act, 1993.
Report to be considered.
4. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the
upliftment of the provisional suspension from office of Magistrate A Bacharam, dated 10 November
The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the report on
the upliftment of provisional suspension from office of Magistrate A Bacharam, tabled by the Minister
for Justice and Constitutional Development in terms of section 13(3)(b) of the Magistrates Act, 1993
(Act no 90 of 1993) on 17 September 2009, reports as follows:
1. The Committee notes from the report tabled by the Minister for Justice and Constitutional
Development that the Magistrates Commission resolved on 7 March 2008 to recommend that
Ms Bacharam be provisionally suspended from office in terms of section 13(3)(a) of the
Magistrates Act, 1993. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development provisionally
suspended Ms Bacharam from office on 16 March 2008.
2. Ms Bacharam was criminally charged for defeating or obstructing the Administration of
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3. The Magistrates Commission set down a misconduct inquiry for 30 May 2008. Ms Bacharam‟s
representative requested that the inquiry be postponed pending the finalisation of the criminal
case against her.
4. In terms of section 13(3)(c) of the Magistrates Act, 1993, Parliament must, as soon as is
reasonably possible, pass a resolution as to whether or not the provisional suspension of a
magistrate is confirmed: On 20 November 2008 and 27 November 2008, the National
Assembly and National Council of Provinces respectively resolved to confirm Ms Bacharam‟s
provisional suspension from the office of Magistrate.
5. In terms of section 13(3)(f) of the Magistrates Act, 1993, the Magistrate‟s Commission is
required to report to Parliament on its progress in respect of its inquiry every three months. The
Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development tabled the necessary progress reports on 10
March 2009 and on 7 August 2009.
6. On 13 February 2009, Ms Bacharam was acquitted by the Regional Magistrate‟s Court in Port
7. After studying a transcription of the court record, the Magistrates Commission believed that it
would not be able to successfully prove, on a balance of probabilities, misconduct on the part
of Ms Bacharam. The Commission decided, on 25 August 2009, not to proceed with the
disciplinary inquiry. On the Commission‟s recommendation, the Minister uplifted the
provisional suspension on 16 September 2009.
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8. The Committee, after considering the report before it, and meeting with representatives of the
Magistrates Commission, agrees with the Minister‟s decision to uplift the suspension.
Report to be considered.
5. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs
on the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Amendment Bill [B 57D - 2008] (National
Assembly- sec 76), dated 11 November 2009:
The Portfolio Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, having
considered the subject of the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Amendment Bill
[B 57D- 2008] (National Assembly-sec 76), amended by the National Council of Provinces and
referred to the committee, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.
6. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs
on the National House of Traditional Leaders Bill [B 56D - 2008] (National Assembly- sec 76), dated
11 November 2009:
The Portfolio Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, having
considered the subject of the National House of Traditional Leaders Bill [B 56D- 2008] (National
Assembly-sec 76), amended by the National Council of Provinces and referred to the committee,
reports that it has agreed to the Bill.
7. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the
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Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the
Hong Kong special Administrative Region of the People’s Republic of China Concerning
Surrender of Fugitive Offenders, dated 11 November 2009:
The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the request
for approval by Parliament of the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
and the Government of the Hong Kong special Administrative Region of the People‟s Republic of
China Concerning Surrender of Fugitive Offenders, recommends that the National Assembly approves
Report to be considered.
8. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the
Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the
Hong Kong special Administrative Region of the People’s Republic of China Concerning Mutual
Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters, dated 11 November 2009:
The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the request
for approval by Parliament of the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
and the Government of the Hong Kong special Administrative Region of the People‟s Republic of
China Concerning Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters, recommends that the National
Assembly approves the Agreement.
Report to be considered.
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9. REPORT OF THE AD HOC COMMITTEE ON THE GREEN PAPER: NATIONAL
STRATEGIC PLANNING, DATED 10 NOVEMBER 2009
Any discussion on national planning starts with South Africa‟s national ideal: the need to create a truly
non-racial, non-sexist, prosperous and democratic society. Towards this end South Africans pursue
equitably shared economic growth, decent jobs and sustainable livelihoods, quality education and
skills, action against poverty and inequality, rural development, improved healthcare, safety and social
cohesion. For National Planning to achieve these goals, a new culture and style of governance would
have to be cultivated.
The South African Government has developed policies and frameworks for poverty alleviation, growth
and development of South Africa for the past fifteen years. It was realised that planning, coordination
across the three spheres of government, implementation, monitoring and evaluation of such policies
remain a challenge. There is no overall long-term vision for the country.
South Africa has medium-term objectives that are specified in the five-year Medium Term Strategic
Framework. Various sectors and departments and spheres of Government do have long term objectives
set out in white papers, strategies, policy frameworks and other frameworks and instruments.
Coordination and joint planning is meant to be facilitated by legislation such as the Development
Facilitation Act, 1995 (Act 67 of 1995), the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Act, 2005 (Act
13 of 2005), the Land-Use Management Bill, guidelines on spatial planning, and ultimately the
Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996 (Act 108 of 1996).
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However, Government lacks an integrated long-term plan, which outlines in specific terms, the kind of
society and economy that is aimed for in 15 years or more. It was established that there has not been
enough systemic effort to ensure that the visions and strategies of Departments, sectors and spheres of
Government cohere with one another. Since the Reconstruction and Development Programme, which
galvanised large parts of our society, there has not been a mobilising vision that is clearly understood
by all sectors of society with a commitment to contribute to its realisation. Efforts to reduce poverty
and roll back extreme inequalities of apartheid had not produced results as expected.
The following include some of the deficiencies in the current planning system:
There is no agreed vision about the country‟s long-term direction, its ideal objective or the end
state. No monitoring and evaluation body is established to monitor the progress towards
achieving an agreed vision, reaching the ideal objective or the „end state‟.
There is a tendency towards „short-termism‟ and voluntarism that characterised activities of
government, state institutions and entities, business communities and civil society.
Government still faces serious challenges in intergovernmental coordination, despite
significant advances over the past decade.
An agency is needed that will authoritatively drive planning, monitoring and evaluation and
institutional improvements. This mechanism should have the ability to make decisions, where
limited resources and policies are contested.
Policy imperatives, such as growth and development, strengthening institutions, nation-building and
the establishment of a developmental state are long term projects. A single term of government is too
short a time to complete building a prosperous, non-racial, non-sexist and democratic South Africa,
where all citizens can share in the fruits of opportunity. This has given rise to the need for government
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to establish a more long term integrated planning mechanism and develop systems for monitoring and
evaluation of the implementation of policies.
There has been no agency to drive planning and overall monitoring and evaluation from the centre of
government. Programmes are not articulated within a coherent spatial frame of reference. This is in
marked contrast to those developing countries that have grown rapidly in the past three decades.
Long term planning has been the mainstay for the success of several countries in the international
system. Comparative studies from Malaysia, South Korea, Brazil, India, Botswana, Tunisia and
Nigeria, amongst others, indicate that these countries faced similar conditions as South Africa, and
have succeeded in improving the lives of their citizens by developing long-term plans, within a context
of global uncertainty.
Most of these countries took a conscious decision to undertake and implement long-term strategic
planning in order to set a coherent vision, backed by clear and measurable programmes and targets.
The emphasis on long-term planning did not mean that medium-term and short-term planning were
less important. The aim was to situate the short-term and medium-term plans within a longer term
horizon, of approximately 10 – 30 years.
Critical lessons from the international experience include the following:
Strategic planning and better management of development processes require quality institutions
that give leadership, including resolving problems that are barriers to inclusive growth and
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The systems, institutions and processes of strategic planning vary considerably from country to
country. They are informed by the history, socio-economic conditions and culture of each
Success in ensuring sustained growth and development depends largely on mobilising the
public service and all of society behind a long term vision.
The quality of strategic plans and success in their implementation depend on the quality of
policies and the strategic choices made.
There should be a recognised institutional centre (at the apex of government) for nationwide
planning which advanced strategic, political, organisational and technical capabilities for
Administrative and technical support to planning can be located within the apex of government
or in semi-autonomous development institutions.
A generic lesson from studies undertaken is that planning is not a panacea, and does not by itself
guarantee good outcomes. In some countries, planning had resulted in adverse outcomes. South Africa,
while being cognisant of these international lessons, must institute its national Planning within the
unique conditions that prevail in South Africa.
Good development planning outcomes require solid institutions, a highly capable state, strong
relationships between the major social forces, and a clear focus on the strategic objective across the
board. It is critical that the institutions and the systems that support long term planning should take into
consideration the country‟s historical, political, social and economic context. Long term planning will
then ensure that society‟s expectations of better service delivery from the state, an effective
government and a better life for all are realised.
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2. Parliament’s constitutional responsibility to consider the Green Paper
Since Parliament is constitutionally mandated as a forum for public participation on matters of national
interest; the Green Paper: National Strategic Planning (Green Paper), as a discussion document was
considered in a manner that accommodated public interest and allowed for national consultation. It is
recognised that Parliament is not the author of the Green Paper, and thus cannot dictate to the
Executive the terms of reference. Parliament, in this instance, is a representative of the people, from
whom consultation has been sought.
2.1 Powers of the Ad Hoc Committee
The Ad hoc Committee on the Green Paper was established by resolution of the National Assembly to
consider and report on the Green Paper.
Ad hoc committees are established by resolution of the Assembly to perform a specific task. The
resolution establishing the committee must specify the task assigned to the committee, and set time
frames for any steps in performing the task, and the completion of the task (National Assembly rule
214 – 216).
National Assembly Committees have the following general powers, subject to the Constitution,
Legislation, National Assembly Rule 138 and House resolutions:
1. to summon any person to appear before it to give evidence on oath or affirmation, or to produce
2. to receive petitions, representations or submissions from interested persons or institutions.
3. to conduct public hearings.
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4. to permit oral evidence on petitions, representations, submissions and any other matter before
5. to determine their own procedure.
6. to meet at a venue determined by them, which may be beyond the seat of Parliament.
7. to meet on any day and at any time.
8. to confer with other parliamentary committees.
The Ad hoc Committee ceases to exist when it has completed its task and reported to the Assembly.
2.2 Objectives of the Ad Hoc Committee’s interaction on the Green Paper
The Green Paper is a draft policy document that the Presidency is consulting stakeholders on. The
objectives of the Ad hoc Committee is to:
Provide a platform for institutional debate on the Green Paper.
Allow public comment and broad consideration of the Green Paper.
Evaluate the matters of convergence and divergence, raised by stakeholders.
Report on matters raised that would require clarity and refinement in the Green Paper.
Make a recommendation to the National Assembly whether it should support the Green paper
on National Strategic Planning or not.
Propose recommendations to the Executive to refine the Green Paper on National Strategic
2.3 Procedure followed by the Ad Hoc Committee
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The Minister in the Presidency for the National Planning Commission tabled the Green Paper in
Parliament on 4 September 2009, as a means to consult with Parliament on the establishment of a
National Planning Commission. The Ad Hoc Committee on the Green Paper on National Strategic
Planning was established on 8 September 2009. The Green Paper was referred to the Ad Hoc
Committee for consideration and report.
The Committee met on a regular basis in order to meet its reporting directives. The Committee invited
the Minister in the Presidency for National Planning Commission to brief it on the Green Paper. As a
result of far-reaching proposals made in the Green Paper, the Committee invited submissions from the
The Committee received 27 written submissions and requested that the 29 submissions received by the
Presidency be forwarded to it. In total, the Committee processed 56 written submissions. The
Committee then grouped the submissions according to the sectors they represented, in order to allow
for a diverse yet balanced input from various stakeholders.
The Committee then invited stakeholders from the various sectors to make an oral submission on the
Green Paper. The stakeholders that were invited to make oral submissions were from the following
sectors: Labour, Business, Mining, Law, Disability, Environment and Rural Development. The
stakeholders invited to make an oral submission were:
Dr. Christo Becker
Prof. Harald Winkler
Aids Law Project
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Business Unity South Africa (BUSA)
Chamber Of Mines
Johannesburg Disability Forum
Congress of South African Trade Unions (COSATU)
The Law Society was unable to make an oral submission due to time constraints and prior
commitments. The Minister in the Presidency: National Planning Commission was afforded an
opportunity to respond to the submissions the Committee received. The Committee then consolidated
its position on the Green Paper, in preparation for its report to the National Assembly.
3. Overview of the Green Paper: National Strategic Planning
The Green Paper identifies a need to develop a vision for South Africa, from which a long term plan
will be formulated. It also motivates for the establishment of a National Planning Commission and a
Ministerial Committee on Planning.
The Green Paper sets out a draft proposal for the establishment of several bodies that will work
together to formulate long-term plans. These bodies will also play a role in coordinating government
departments, state institutions and bodies, civil society, business, labour, experts and other
stakeholders. They will also be responsible for formulating measurable indicators for monitoring the
implementation of a long-term plan and allow for public participation in the planning process.
The Minister in the Presidency: National Planning Commission will be responsible for coordinating
the planning process and will be politically accountable for delivering certain outputs. The Ministry in
the Presidency (the Planning Ministry) will contain the secretariat to the National Planning
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Commission (the Commission), which will support the Commission‟s work and do background work
the Commission needs to fulfil its objectives. The Planning Ministry will also be responsible for
ensuring that the plan is factored into the planning of departments, spheres of government and relevant
state agencies. The Green Paper is premised on the understanding that long term planning exists within
state departments, spheres of government and entities.
The Planning Ministry will be tasked with focusing government towards the achievement of clear
goals and ensuring synergy across sectors and spheres. The Planning Ministry will undertake its
mandate in collaboration with the Ministry in the Presidency for Performance Monitoring and
The Green Paper identified six key functions/requirements of the Planning Ministry. They are:
The Minister should lead government‟s interaction with the Commission and social partners in
developing a common national strategic vision, and outline the emanating targets and processes
that relevant stakeholders will undertake to reach the targets formulated.
The Planning Ministry will be the centre of coordinating government‟s planning efforts across
the spheres of government and relevant state agencies.
It should coordinate national government‟s interaction on matters of strategic planning with
other structures of government:
o In integrating the input of other spheres into the national plan.
o In the iteration that will be necessary in the development of „sub-national‟ strategic
o In the adoption and operationalisation of the national plan.
o In strengthening and enhancing government‟s capacity to do long-term planning.
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The Planning Commission would require administrative and technical capacity, by a secretariat
in the Presidency. The secretariat will conduct and coordinate research and align planning
capacities across government. It will liaise with its administrative and technical counterparts in
the departments, provinces, municipalities and state agencies.
It should develop networks of knowledge and expertise in quasi-state research centres,
academic institutions, civil society and private sector agencies.
It should also have systems for interaction with the budgeting process, state-owned enterprises
and development finance institutions to ensure the plans developed are in line with national
strategies and that resources are optimally employed for national long-term development.
The Green Paper also proposes alternative planning entities that could be considered for establishment.
However, a National Planning Commission located in the Presidency is motivated for, given the
current skills levels in the country, existing research institutions and bodies; and anticipated costs of
establishing alternative planning entities.
The Green Paper also outlines the function of Cabinet in the planning and implementation process, the
responsibility of other spheres of government in intergovernmental planning, the role of Parliament
and the link of monitoring and evaluation function in the Presidency. The Green Paper also states that
spatial planning will be undertaken in order to correct imbalances of the past.
4. Issues highlighted from submissions received by the Committee through its public
4.1. Convergence on Principles
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In all submissions and oral evidence presented to the Committee, there was an absolute convergence
on the Constitutional imperative for co-ordination, inter-relatedness and co-operation, as stated in
Section 41 (1)(h) of the Constitution, which states that all spheres of government and organs of state
within each sphere must “co-operate with one another in mutual trust and good faith by-
(i) fostering friendly relations;
(ii) assisting and supporting one another;
(iii) informing one another of, and consulting one another on, matters of common interest;
(iv) co-ordinating their actions and legislation with one another”
There is unanimity on the need for long term sustainable planning with a clear framework against
which to measure the performance of the State, and around which to co-ordinate the myriad of plans,
programmes and projects by spheres of government, state departments, state-owned enterprises, and
even society in general.
There was agreement that, even though government has successfully established sound and democratic
institutions in the last 15 years, which have created a stable economic platform to effectively respond
to challenges of transformation of the society, there are still more challenges that require better
planning and coordination of policies and programmes that address unacceptably high levels of
unemployment and retrenchments; high levels of inequality in the society and skewed economic
opportunities, with devastating poverty. Therefore, there is a need for a coherent and sustainable long-
term plan to guide short-term interventions. It was found that all submissions concurred on the need to
establish a national planning body.
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In terms of collective responsibility there was no dispute that Cabinet remained ultimately responsible
for national planning; and no mechanism for national planning could override the responsibility of
These areas of convergence indicate a fundamental agreement on principles in pursuit of our national
ideal for a non-racial, non-sexist prosperous and democratic society. This agreement is further
underpinned by broad agreement on a National Planning Commission which should produce a
programme and plan around which all South Africans should unify.
4.2. Areas requiring Clarification
4.2.1 Titles for Minister
Two titles for the Minister in the Presidency: National Planning Commission are used interchangeably
in the Green Paper. They are „Minister for National Planning in the Presidency‟ and „Minister in the
Presidency responsible for National Planning Commission‟. The usage of the titles for the same
Minister does create confusion on whether a separate ministry will be created or whether the Minister
will remain within the Presidency, and be responsible for national planning in a specific capacity, in
relation to other Ministers.
4.2.2 Name of the Commission
The National Planning Commission is a confusing name for the Ministry in the Presidency that will be
responsible for formulating the national long-term planning. The term „commission‟ usually is used for
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a body that is not part of government, an independent body or a body that is established for a specific
purpose/task. After the task is complete, the Commission will dissolve.
If the Ministry is based in the Presidency, its name should make reference to the Presidency, as the
Ministry in the Presidency for Performance Monitoring and Evaluation does. This should clear up
confusion about its placement within government, and the legitimacy of the office.
4.2.3 Appointment of Commissioners
The Green Paper also made some indications that there will be appointments of National
Commissioners, but the process which will be followed to appoint Commissioners has not been
outlined clearly. It was an observation of the Committee that most of the submissions have suggested
the involvement of certain individuals from various sectors which will bring more experience and
inputs rather than only inputs and experience from academics and intellectuals. It is therefore
important for the Green Paper to take into account these factors moving forward.
The Green Paper is silent about a number of matters regarding Commissioners and their appointment.
some description of the range of skills commissioners would represent;
the role commissioners would play in the Commission;
how many commissioners would be required, and how many commissioners would be full-time
or part-time employed in the National Planning Commission;
how long would the term of commissioners be; and
what their powers and status would be.
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4.2.4. Role of Parliament
Parliament‟s role in the Green Paper is envisioned to be consistent with its current constitutional role
of oversight of the Executive. Parliament also provides, through the National Assembly, a national
platform for matters of national interest to be considered. Parliament may create a portfolio or joint
committee which would conduct oversight, consider and interrogate long term plans formulated and
the achievement of measurable outcomes of the plan. However, the placement of the National Planning
Commission within the Presidency, or in Cabinet, or independent of the Executive will have
implications for the type of parliamentary entity that would be established to conduct oversight of the
Apart from Parliament‟s oversight and legislative role, it should be noted that Parliament plays a role
in appointment of commissioners to several statutory bodies and boards. Parliament has received
nominations and applications; evaluated and interviewed short-listed candidates; and made
recommendations for the President‟s consideration.
4.2.5. Need for a White Paper
The title of the Green Paper creates confusion of whether a white paper process will result. When
Government was reconstituted after the national elections of 2009, several new government
departments were created, without a green paper or white paper process. Some confusion exists as to
why the National Planning Commission requires a green paper process, and whether a white paper
process and legislative establishment of the National Planning Commission will take place.
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The Minister in the Presidency: National Planning Commission has indicated that the green paper
process was undertaken in order to receive submissions on the need for national planning. The Green
Paper is a tool for consultation on the establishment of a body that should be formed to undertake
national planning. It seems reasonable that given the wide, robust debate enjoyed by the Green Paper,
the purpose of consultation has been achieved.
5. Structural questions to be answered
5.1 Status of the National Planning Commission
The Green Paper is not clear about the establishment of the National Planning Commission (NPC) as
an advisory body or as part of Government. The shape the planning body will take will have
implications for its success, powers and efficacy. Whether it will be established as a statutory body, an
advisory body, a ministry within the Presidency, a ministry in the Executive, or a constitutionally
established body will bear implications for its powers, legitimacy, responsibilities and accountability.
From the Committee‟s interactions it emerged that the NPC is proposed as a new entity in the array of
government institutions. It is neither a constitutionally-established independent institution, nor a
government department. Its establishment is meant to assist government in providing overall
integration of planning; but also to galvanise and unite the nation behind a single vision and long-term
plan. In this respect, Parliament could provide a national platform for public participation in the
formation and support of a national vision and objectives, in-line with its constitutional responsibility.
The Green Paper states that:
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“Guided by a strategic vision and plan, society will more effectively unite in action. The
proposed planning system, processes and structures are meant to help achieve such united
action. Attached to strategic planning, it is argued, should be principles to guide
coordination and integration of government‟s work and indeed the efforts of society at
With the interplay of these roles, the NPC is at best advisory to the Executive and consists of the best
expertise and experience from society. The NPC should also create capacity for the state to plan, but
will be free of the day-to-day details and imperatives of the state and political parties. There has been
convergence around the conception that there is need for a National Planning Commission.
5.2 Role of the Ministry
To ensure a coherent set of products from the NPC, a Minister or Ministry in the Presidency, with the
President as the ultimate custodian of policy, must play a role in guiding the NPC, since the President
is the conveyor of the Executive mandate, and would be responsible for communication between the
Executive and the NPC. All of these are at the service of the core activity of producing a national
vision and to drive National Planning.
The core role of the Presidency‟s planning function is the preparation of the three key products of the
The long term product (National Strategic Vision)
The medium term product (Medium Term Strategic Framework) and the short term product
(Programme of Action)
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Another core activity will be to initiate focussed reflection by the executive and/or society at large on
major areas of government work. Specific areas of policy research would be identified – mainly the
kinds of issues that are key drivers to the nation‟s development trajectory, that have major macro-
social implications and that are therefore critical for long-term planning. The Presidency will ensure
monitoring of trends in these areas as well as coordination and leadership in their management.
5.3 Relationship: Planning and Monitoring and Evaluation
The issue of monitoring and evaluation as a separate process from planning remains a concern for the
Committee. The Green Paper was tabled separately from the monitoring and evaluation policy
document. Separate public participation was undertaken on the Green Paper, which excluded the
Monitoring and Evaluation policy, yet the two documents complement each other.
All the deliberations of the Ad Hoc Committee speak not only to the complementarity of the Planning
function and the functions of performance monitoring and evaluation, but also to the inseparability of
the two sets of functions. The implementations of the NPC, and the brief given to it, must ensure that
the development of a national vision and plan is subject to the imperative of measurability, in order to
facilitate structured interaction between the two Ministers in the Presidency. Performance monitoring
and evaluation must be able to turn vision and plan into milestones and indicators so that South
Africans can experience a better life, as envisaged in the policy imperatives of government.
5.4 Relationship: Planning and line-function departments
The Green Paper should ensure that the roles and responsibilities of the National Planning Commission
in relation to line departments are well defined. The essence of several submissions received was that
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the National Planning Commission would encroach into other line departments‟ mandates. Although
its mandate is to ensure the formulation of a plan, coordination and communication amongst
government departments on the national strategic plan; the implementation of the plans would still be
done by line departments, and they will still be expected to conduct their own planning in line with the
national planning body and its products after acceptance by Cabinet.
5.5 Relationship: NPC, NEDLAC and other established bodies
NEDLAC has been regarded as a body that provides a platform for Business, Labour and Government
to discuss and negotiate micro and macro issues. Clarity was required on the issue of how NEDLAC
and other major stakeholders were to play a role. The establishment of the NPC should not encroach
on the responsibilities of these bodies, but would seek support and consensus on matters related to long
term planning, while bodies like NEDLAC continue their given role.
5.6 Public Consultation
Planning will require various inputs from various sectors and any perceived exclusion may imply that
various stakeholders, in whose name planning is done, will be excluded from the process. The views of
Labour, Business and other planners should be taken into account to ensure the balance between all
market forces and government planning.
The Green Paper suggests the “buy-in” from the public but should be more explicit about how it will
solicit the views of civil society. Parliament could play its role in providing a platform for society to
shape matters of a vision for South Africa and a long-term plan.
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5.7 Other Spheres of Government
The Green Paper explicitly states that it would not undertake micro-planning. The issue of
implementation of strategic plans remained a challenge in government, and should be taken into
account in ensuring the effective and well co-ordinated implementation of national planning.
The Green Paper begins to address the problems of duplication and inefficient services in government.
National government departments will still be expected to conduct their own planning, in line with the
national planning body. Other spheres of government will also be required to fulfil their constitutional
role of ascribing to the national plan that will be formulated; in a way that allows unity and coherence
across the three spheres of government, as envisioned in chapter three of the Constitution, 1996.
The challenge of capacity in local government and at provincial levels was raised and the need to
empower local and provincial government in order to achieve the goals and objectives was
emphasised. The concern was also raised with regard to the Green Paper being silent about the role of
the Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs and Municipal Integrated
Development Plans (IDPs) which would need to be addressed.
6. Content areas to be considered
The Committee received substantial inputs on a variety of content matters, which supported the need
for national planning. These areas included planning for Climate Change to be factored into the work
of all government departments to anticipate the impact on energy, water, agriculture, the environment,
and other aspects of life in South Africa. Development was also proposed to take place within a spatial
framework, and the needs of people with disabilities were raised for consideration in the formulation
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of a national plan. The recognition of rural development was also put forward for consideration in
broader economic development and planning.
Other inputs of content reflected the devastating impact of current global economic challenges on the
South Africa economy, the livelihoods of people and the deepening of poverty and inequality.
It was not the primary task of the Ad Hoc Committee to pronounce on matters of content. However, as
the Committee‟s public hearings revealed, the need for planning, integration and co-ordination should
take into consideration the allocation of scarce resources, frugal exercise of choices, and steadfast
implementation of programmes.
All of the submissions received strengthened the Green Paper‟s central thrust, that South Africa needs
a National Planning Commission.
7. Developing conceptual clarity
In the submissions and presentations to the Ad Hoc Committee, there were some fears that an absence
of conceptual agreement on key concepts that relate to the planning process – policy, plan, co-
ordination, implementation, strategic objectives, operational work, etc. could lead to undue inter-
changeability of such concepts, and in turn, lead to duplication, usurpation or neglect of tasks and
responsibilities. The Ad Hoc Committee, having examined the usage of these concepts, believe that the
Green Paper can be more consistent in the use of these concepts and believe that Section 5 of the
Green Paper lays the basis for this, and would eliminate undue fears and suspicions.
The following paragraph from the Green Paper is particularly useful:
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“The distinction between plans and policies varies in different contexts. In some contexts, a
plan is a detailed account of how to implement a policy – the latter deriving from electoral
mandates and ensuing choices of the Executive and/or Legislatures. In this context, planning
means translating policies into long-, medium-, and short- term objectives, prioritizing the
objectives, and sequencing implementation”.
This, in the main, should guide the critical relationships between various concepts.
In addition, the Green Paper uses of the following metaphor to describe the planning process and to
guide the critical inter-relationships that will make it succeed: “… Governance consists of a continuum
of related activities which feed into one another:
strategic and operational planning
performance monitoring and evaluation”
If this governance continuum is understood and creatively applied, then matters which may give rise
either to fears, suspicion or confusion should be left to the Executive for resolution. These include the
relationship between General Planning and Economic Planning, areas of possible duplication and
overlap of functions and roles, the final management of trade-offs, the ultimate influence of experts
and the assertion of government‟s mandate.
It is in the exercise of the role of the Executive that the primacy of Cabinet will be expressed.
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8. Evaluation of areas of convergence and debate
Consensus was reached by all parties that there is a need for long-term planning. The Green Paper
advocates for the establishment of an entity that would undertake long-term planning. The Green Paper
is also a consultative document, in that it asks for comment on what it proposes.
The Committee gave due consideration to the input provided by the Minister in the Presidency:
National Planning Commission, all submissions received on the Green Paper and the Green Paper
itself. There were matters that required further clarity in the Green Paper, and conceptual areas that
required clarity. Structural questions that will require further engagements and fundamental issues
should be clarified in order to give all stakeholders the same understanding of the national strategic
The Committee was pleased with the complete convergence in principle: the need for national
planning through the National Planning Commission would present South Africans with a vision
around which to unite and a plan around which all South Africans must work.
The Committee was further pleased with the robust debate of the matters contained in the Green Paper.
The Committee saw its role as being a platform to reconcile differences, and seek clarity about the
strategic objectives set out in the Green Paper. Where necessary, the Committee also raised areas that
the Executive should address in the implementation of the process outlined in the Green Paper.
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The Committee undertook its constitutional responsibility to provide a national platform for public
participation on the Green Paper, by inviting written and oral submissions and hosted public hearings.
It became clear that there is a general consensus on the need to establish a unifying planning body
which would coordinate and advance policy direction and priorities of government in the long term.
The concerns raised by the public, organisations and stakeholders have been taken into consideration
during the Committee‟s deliberations on the Green Paper. Some of these matters raised required
Although the paper on Monitoring and Evaluation was tabled separately from the Green Paper on
National Strategic Planning, the two processes proposed could not be expected to function independent
from each other.
A trade-off existed between meeting short-term requirements for establishing a Commission and
addressing long-term intergenerational and infrastructure challenges.
The President maintains the prerogative to select the Executive, and create government departments
and structures to support the policy imperatives. The Committee appreciated the consultation that was
sought from Parliament on the Green Paper. Given the time constraints the Committee had not been
able to exhaust all concerns raised in its public participation process.
Based on the report, the Ad Hoc Committee on the Green Paper for National Strategic Planning
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Parliament should support the Green Paper: National Strategic Planning and the National
Planning Commission. The primacy of Cabinet should also be supported.
Additionally, the following recommendations are made to the Executive:
A consultation process should be embarked on to clarify matters such as the appointment and
role of Commissioners. Clarity should be provided on the role and responsibility of Cabinet
Ministers, in relation to the National Planning Commission.
The Minister in the Presidency: National Planning Commission should clarify the process to be
undertaken in the appointment of Commissioners, as envisaged in the Green Paper: National
A pronouncement should be made on whether a white paper process will ensue.
Consistency and a common understanding should be ensured in the usage of concepts such as
Policy, Planning, Co-ordination, and Implementation; in order to prevent inter-changeability
that results in undue confusion.
To structure the relationship between the National Planning Commission and the Performance
Monitoring and Evaluation functions so as to ensure complementarity, and the implementations
and measurement of the same objectives across government.
Consideration should be made on the role of Parliament to provide a national platform for
Consideration should be made on a proposed role for Parliament to recommend nominations
for the appointment of Commissioners to the National Planning Commission.
Report to be considered.