Memorandum by pengxiuhui


									               Innovative Learning Environments Expo 3
        Friday 15 October, 2010 at the Community Arts Centre, Seymour
                                        Keynote Presentation transcript

What makes a learning environment innovative?
Paul Meldrum

Speaker 1:   I work for Catholic Education in the Diocese of Parramatta. I used to work for
             Queensland State Education then I came down to work with a colleague back, I
             didn‟t know him back then and this was back in ‟97, which was Greg Whitby,
             whose about an inch taller than me, but probably about 50 kilos more too. So, he‟s
             a big fellow and so I came to work with him and I‟ve moved around a bit and then
             I‟m back at Parramatta. And so in 2006, we started a journey of innovation and
             through our Diocese covers about that area, probably about two hours from one
             end to the other, about 42,000 students and a few teachers … a few thousand
             teachers, etc. So, it‟s not big compared to State Education Departments and I
             suppose from our point of view, that‟s good because we‟re aiming for, you know,
             from a system point of view, how can we drive systemic change?

             So, just for this morning, I thought I‟d break the presentation up into three areas –
             the what; the how; and the connections. You know, what have we been doing in
             our shared understandings, language and expectations? Then our journey and
             then how does all that fit together in terms of pedagogy and the space. I‟ll make
             sure I leavethis presentation with someone here, so anything in it you‟re certainly
             most welcome to. Just five points I often think well, now when I‟m sitting in the
             audience, what are the things I really need to go away with? And quite often, I‟m
             sitting in the audience and I‟m still working it out at the end.

             So, these are the five key points that I think are fairly important and what I‟m trying
             to talk about this afternoon in the presentation, which is from „I think‟ to „we know‟.
             So, there‟s a lot of evidence around out there learning and teaching and what
             makes schools effective and how they can be better. And so we work on the
             notion that it‟s not about what I think is good, it‟s what does the evidence say?
             What makes good schools? What‟s high performing, high equity schools? How do
             we get there?

             Moving from what we term „managing schools‟ to „instructional leadership‟ and
             there‟s a big difference there and there‟s a lot of research coming out of New
             Zealand about that and it‟s moved from transformational leadership to instructional
             leadership and personalising the learning. Using the data. The assessment of
             learning; the assessment for learning, the assessment as learning data. How are
             we using that to inform what we‟re doing tomorrow with our children?
             Deprivatising teacher practice through an enquiry line and then finally, space
             aligned with your theory of action. And I would say those first four form our theory
             of action and I‟ve got a graphic later on to talk about that but the question is, in
             your school do you have a theory of action? Is it clearly laid out? Not complex but
             there are complexities around it.

             So, the first section then from schooling to learning, what does it look like and
             what‟s our understanding? We had to go on a journey starting back in 2006 and
             this is where we started and this is what we call our innovation. The innovation is
             the whole process, not just one part. The innovation starts with trying to
             understand and learn it. That‟s my little girl, she‟s two, just turning two and she,
             you know, quite proficiently uses the iPad and always has with technology. The
             other day, her mother was up at the Apple store actually just fixing … getting
             something fixed and she was happily playing on the equipment there. She knew
             how to navigate around. She picks up the phone and her understanding of calling
             someone is now through video, so she face dials her grandparents here in
             Queensland. Her grandparents are in their 70s mind you and they have an iPad
             and an iPod, sorry, an iPod Touch. I‟ve got two other kids, Louis who‟s five and
             Helen is six. Louis is at Kindy and certainly they have an audience now. Louis
             came home just the other day … just the other day and said … because he
             searches using YouTube. He doesn‟t search using Google because he loves
             playing the Nintendo DS and he looks at … and the Wii, PlayStation … so he
             looks at the videos about them but we make videos and we … he wants to post
             them onto YouTube and so does Helen. He came home the other day and said,
             “I‟ve got 500 hits, 500 views of my Hot Wheels video” and he did that at the
             beginning of Kindy. Another one is Helen, which is … this is a fantastic site for
             schools, A Story before Bed. She‟s in Year 1 and again, I wanted to capture data
             about her reading and I wanted to make it simple and easy. All I have to do is go
             to a website called A Story before Bed; choose the book, which presents to me
             graphically and with animations, and it automatically senses that I‟ve got a video
             camera on the computer and records her reading that book. She then just posts
             that or emails that to her grandparents or puts it on her Facebook, puts it up there
             and they can see her reading the book. I‟ve done this with schools and literacy
             kids in the literacy block and the effect was quite dramatic that the Principal came
             up to me afterwards and said there was a child there who was in Year 2 who
             hasn‟t read, won‟t pick up a book. He kept on coming up and wanting to read page
             after page because he can now have an audience because I said, “We‟re going to
             put it up on YouTube.”

             I might just get David to flick over to … which I can‟t do with the remote … just flick
             over to Sahara … just a second David? and the second tab tied up. That‟s it and
             just click within that the internet. Yeah? Double click here. I‟m just connected to
             my phone through internet. So, let‟s see how we go. Just press play and it will
             load in a couple of seconds and you just play again and this is how it presents and
             records. I similarly asked her grandparents to do a recording.

Speaker 2:   “Boomer was just settling down after his morning walk”.

Speaker 1:   So, she was just lying on the bed.

Student 1:   “When suddenly someone …”
Speaker 1:   She was just lying on the bed doing that reading and we‟ll do it again at the end of
             the year, so I‟ve got a capture of how her reading is progressing and I can talk
             about that with her teachers. Now, if you just click onto the one on the left David,
             which is the . No, that‟s okay and that‟s it. That‟s the book store. So, you have a
             book store and schools can actually subscribe to it. If you just click back to the
             presentation, thanks.

             So, certainly those are opportunities and that‟s the kids of today. So, when we talk
             about learning today, what does learning today look like? Well, we have the old
             narrative and we all know the old narrative, where school was at the centre. The
             classroom was at the centre, the teacher at the front and we‟re slowly, but
             progressively moving past that narrative and we‟re moving into the new narrative
             where no longer is the school at the centre but the child is at the centre and the
             child is connected. They now have the opportunity for a real audience, different
             stage and hence, a different purpose.

             And so if we compare these two narratives, you look at one being control, one
             being content and isolate - content driven and isolated to now be ubiquitous
             learning, where learning occurs in personalised collaborative and learner-focused.
             And so, when you start looking at learning, that way has a profound impact
             because then you have to start thinking how is it possible and is that possible
             within the spaces we have today? Those are the tools that certainly the kids use
             and our kids use at school and at home and the question there – well what are the
             skills? Probably at this stage, I mean these would be not unfamiliar to you. Similar
             conversations have been had for quite some time now, so we know about these
             skills. The question is how are we catering for them? And what I like about what
             you‟re doing in Victoria is, and I‟m not sure how much conversation there is
             around it but certainly E5. E5 is something that we‟re certainly looking at in our
             Parramatta diocese. E5 provides a very good framework of the verbs of learning
             and quite often we talk about the verbs versus the nouns. People quite often get
             confused or get focused on the nouns, the new laptop, the new space - it‟s not
             about that. What are the verbs and how do those verbs come to life? Then we
             can talk about the nouns.

             And this is reiterating about the National Curriculum and again, just the other week
             at the Australian College of Educational Leaders‟ Conference, which was up in
             Sydney, with Valerie Hannon also talking about the learning imperative. So, what
             do kids think about this? Well, this is a Year 10 student from St Marks, one of our
             secondary schools, and there are a couple of videos I‟m going to show you in a
             moment. Just to give you the context of it, we have lots of visitors to Parramatta
             diocese and at this particular school, we had some visitors and these kids gave a
             presentation to the visitors and led the conversation and afterwards, I said to
             them, “Well, how did you do that and what went on?” and this is one part of the
             conversation. As I said, you know, what were the skills you need, you believe
             employers need these days? There was no coaxing, this was just their response.
Student 2:   Well, obviously a lot of employers are looking for people to liaise or work with
             computers but they‟re also looking for people to not only work as individuals, the
             time has come that people no longer work just as one person. There‟s a lot more
             teamwork, not only in schools but in the workplace and people who are employing
             people in the workplace, they want people that can work as a team that can share
             their skills and that can help other people do the best job that they can and that
             they‟re not just working for themselves.

Speaker 1:   Now, that‟s her understanding of what employers require and she‟s pretty spot on.
             So, how are we facilitating … how are we facilitating the learning to support that,
             you know, those verbs?

             Now the next video again will show you how these kids developed their
             presentation for guests coming … adult guests coming into their school to talk
             about learning in their school.

Student 3:   Hello, my name is Julian and I‟m a senior College leader at St Mark‟s Catholic
             College, and so pretty much to prepare for the presentation this morning it started
             off at about 5 o‟clock on Facebook and I got a message through Facebook from
             Natasha to say that we really should get together online to start preparing to
             create a document through Google Docs to do this. So, from there I already knew
             that I had some things to prepare with other people. So, it was kind of one of the
             ways that we can do that, and all of the things that have happened through
             Facebook, for example, it‟s just like if there‟s trouble understanding, we can talk
             about what a teacher said in class. That can be [inaudible 00:12:52] Facebook
             [inaudible 00:12:54]. So we‟re starting to use social networking as an educational
             tool. So, the next thing that happened was that I got onto Skype, on the Skype
             with Natasha and she‟s going to talk about that.

Student 4:   Just to continue on from what Julian was saying, we got onto Skype and I started
             up a video call to him where I was talking to him about what we were going to
             write in our project, so we would have to write down, it‟s easier to say it, you know,
             in a voice conversation – that‟s what we were doing, which made it a lot easier for
             us but we also use Skype for other purposes also. For example, I had a maths test
             last week and my friends and I hook up together on Skype and we had a
             conference call and we were all talking to each other about the questions, what we
             didn‟t understand, how to work out the questions and then we went on video and
             so if she didn‟t know how to do something, I hold up my working out to show her.
             So, she‟d be able to see it and go through it and understand.

             Okay, so the process went from Facebook and then to Skype … and then it came
             to Google Docs, and Google Docs is how we associated our schoolwork,
             collaborating with each other. That really helped us to connect outside of school,
             like the school day didn‟t just end at 2:30pm. We were aiming to work together as
             a team outside of school using Google Docs and the best thing about it is it‟s
             instant, and it‟s in real time. So, we could see what each other was doing and we
             could help collaborate into one document, which is actually probably the best thing
             about it.

Speaker 1:   Now, the question for us then, as educators, is what is an innovative learning
             environment? That‟s how they learn. Not only that but that school would be the
             highest user of our learning management system. Not as good as L360 or what
             I‟ve seen of L360 but certainly one that‟s been around for a long time. They don‟t
             use it; the kids don‟t use it. The kids learn using other tools. The tools that they
             use for social collaboration, they also use for learning. So, what‟s that mean for
             our environment? So, when they come to our schools, do they still have access to
             those same tools they use for learning that they do outside of the school and the
             devices, the associated devices? One of the critical things is to understand how
             they‟re learning and when you listen to what they‟re doing, they‟re very much
             following an inquiry model or a project management model. It just depends on how
             you look at it but certainly they‟re following that model. It‟s inquiring, it‟s
             collaboration. Whether they‟ve got a problem to solve or they‟re trying to
             understand a discovery or something, they‟re using a collaborative model of

             The last thing I‟m going to show you, this is one of our Principals. He‟s well into
             his 70s, but there were problems at his school. He‟s turned the school around. He
             went on a learning journey. He became an instructional learner or an instructional
             leader and by instructional leader I mean his focus changed from managing the
             school to every minute of every day the discussion‟s about learning and he is
             leading that learning with this teachers. His class is his teachers but he also does
             teach a class as well.

Video:       When they come into a secondary school, certainly Year 7 particularly, they‟ve got
             that enthusiasm about being in a secondary school which starts to wane when
             they get into Year 9, and they started to realise some were saying, “Well, I‟m not
             really making it and I‟m not terribly interested in what‟s happening” and it doesn‟t
             appeal to them at all. Teachers said, “We have to do something.”

Video:       Before I went to Year 9, in Year 8, towards the end of Year 8, I honestly … I found
             school very boring and then came Year 9 and then came probably the biggest
             change in my academic school life. Because in came PBL and suddenly I wasn‟t
             the same person I was in Year 8 and my grades started … my grades started to
             improve. I had unbroken absences; I had a sudden … felt switched on and I
             wanted to do the work and I wanted to come to school every day and I didn‟t want
             to let my group work down.

Video:       It wasn‟t just the technology. That wasn‟t important at all. It was the way they were
             teaching, how they were teaching and what they were being taught that was the
             relevant part. In other words it was a real curriculum initiative. They wanted the
             school such that the students could actually work together; they were able to
             articulate; they were able to, in other words, explain their thinking; they had a solid
             idea of what the thinking skills are; they had the whole thing … the collaboration
             was … termed „being able to work with other people‟. And that, of course, would
             say new technology networks [inaudible 00:18:09]. Some schools like in
             Birmingham, for example, in the UK, have failed because they only took a little bit
             of it – they said “We might start with science”, and they found that they failed.

Speaker 1:   Now Brother Pat‟s been on a journey with his school for half a dozen years at
             least now but there were problems at that school. It‟s now one of the highest
             performing schools, secondary schools in our system and it is through his
             instructional leadership and what he‟s done with his staff, as them being his class,
his class of learners and he also works in the spaces too. It was at least two years
ago that he began podcasting his lessons and he podcasts them so the kids can
review what they‟re doing in their time and then he has that same high expectation
of his other staff.

What does learning look like today and how is our environment responding to
that? So, part of our journey was a lot of discussion about „what is learning?‟ What
does learning look like? When we walk into a classroom, what would we see?
Well, when we walk anywhere, what do we see the kids doing? Not necessarily in
the classroom but anywhere in their learning environment? What is the learning
environment? So, we spent a lot of time talking about the „what?‟ We spent two
years talking about the „what?‟ And we‟re still talking about the „what?‟. So, what
in this section of it … I‟ll just go through that journey with you, which will explore
our evidence-based design. We didn‟t just do this from „I think‟ but we went and
looked around the world and said “Where are the high performing education
systems and what are they doing? What are they doing that is rich? What are they
doing that works? What are they doing that doesn‟t work?”

So, as I was saying, we‟ve been on a bit of a journey. It started in 2006 in terms
of an innovation and 2006 was challenging the norm. We used to, as an
educational system develop courses, hundreds of courses and teachers would
turn up to them but were they effective? Certainly the research now says, “No,
that‟s not an effective strategy.” Does it work? Yes, it has an effect. Is it the best
bang for buck with your money? No, it‟s not and it‟s the same with teaching
strategies in the classroom. We now know, we‟ve got a pretty good idea what
works and what doesn‟t work. So, 2006 and 2007 was challenging the norms and
that was hard; that was very hard. 2008 and 2009 was certainly all the
conversation around leading learning. So, that was “What‟s the expectation of our
school leadership teams in leading learning?” And previously before 2006, we
used to just bring the Principals together. We know that‟s not the most effective
strategy. Now, when we‟re working with schools, if we‟re working in terms of
instructional leadership or in leading learning, we‟re working with the leadership
teams of schools and they‟re working with their leadership teams. Building

And then the last one there, 2010 is the level we‟re at now, which is diversity and
it‟s good to see there‟s an SMS there certainly about diversity and so we‟ve put in
… we‟ve been working on that in terms of diversity is the norm. Not something
different but it‟s the norm and it‟s about building the capacities of our teachers to
work with all of our kids. So, that journey started, as I said, in 2006 and we
certainly worked with … we started with Marco Torres, which you‟re probably
aware of or know of. A very good educator to talk, to show us what could learning
look like and work with our school. So, we had a book there, which was [Inaudible
22:39], which again was about challenging the norms. What will make a

In 2007, with the schools, we developed a strategic intent and we started working
with Michael Fulham in 2007 and he worked with our leadership teams. He is
coming back in two weeks‟ time and he‟s worked with us just about every year
since to work with our new, new emerging leaders. So, we‟ve got a good
relationship with those people that are making a difference or have made a
difference and certainly his book „Six Secrets of Change‟ have changed. So, we …
our strategic intent based on the evidence is certainly not new and would probably
align fairly closely with yours. It‟s about literacy and numeracy and it‟s about a
formation as we are a Catholic sector and certainly building leadership capacities
and capabilities and that‟s the same with our teachers.

In our leadership teams in 2007, we came together and they were our four
dimensions that we came up with. If we‟re going to provide quality Catholic
schooling, a quality schooling, then we know we have to hit those four areas. We
miss one of them, it‟s not going to be quality, there‟ll be something amiss and we
know that now through experience as well. We know where Leading the Learning
isn‟t at the equivalent stage of the other dimensions then something will go wrong
and we‟ve seen that occur. Similarly, with the learning environment, the learning
and teaching in the community, those four dimensions are crucial to us. We get
those right and we‟ll get the type of learning in the learning spaces or learning that
we were talking about.

One thing that Michael Fulham talks about is „behaviour changes before beliefs‟.
Quite often we go and get data; we look at data and we have all of this evidence
to change someone‟s belief. It doesn‟t work. It doesn‟t work by itself. By far, the
most we‟ve found too, the most effective method of challenging beliefs and
changing beliefs is first of all provide the opportunity to change the behaviour but
still look at those other things to challenge their beliefs. So, we engage and
certainly in visiting places where things are working well, I know you‟re engaged in
instructional rounds, which is certainly one of those too. So, again, looking at what
works and having the conversations. Allowing teachers and school leaders to talk
with each other and to explore what works and what doesn‟t work and then to give
your teachers a safe environment so to trial these things.

In 2008, as we were progressing there, certainly how people learn and that was
crucial for us too as a system to again, consolidate and say, “Well, what do we
believe about learning?” And so we now have a learning statement developed by
our system of leaders, which is all about school leadership teams and it sums it up
in terms of context, connection, metacognition and that drives everything we do –
our statement on learning. David Eddies, or David Eddy, „Making Learning
Visible‟, certainly not a crucial document but we use it. And Viviane Robinson‟s
work and this is where earlier on I talked about moving from transformational
leadership to instructional leadership. The research that has come out of Auckland
University through Viviane Robinson and her colleagues is very contemporary and
certainly very informative and what‟s crucial about those five areas of effective
leadership is certainly the one there, which is .84, which is „Promoting and
participating in teaching, learning and development‟. So, that‟s more than just
organising professional development. That‟s actually saying, “Well, who is my
class?” We use the language, “Who is my class?” all the time with our schools and
our schools use it internally as well. Who is my class? With our school leadership
teams, their class are their teachers. So, they have to understand what their
teacher needs are and actually then be able to monitor and say, “Well, what have
we done? Where are we at? How do we know we‟ve made a difference?” And it‟s
the same expectation with our teachers. The teacher‟s class are the students. The
Principal is not directly responsible for student learning outcomes. They are
responsible for teacher learning. The teacher is responsible for our student

So, in 2009 we started putting this together in terms of what we call our „theory of
action‟ and with all of these constructs there‟s a lot of thinking behind them and it‟s
like anything, as a teacher you know. As you are pulling things together as a
student, it becomes clearer, but again it requires reflection, modification, etc, but
the simpler you can present something, you can guarantee the more complex it is
behind it. So, certainly visible learning high-yield strategies and that‟s where we
started our Building Education Revolution, so the environment was going to match
the learning that we‟re talking about, and our theory of action and as we‟re
speaking, we‟ve started our school implementation plans again for 2010, which
will be a modification of 2009.

This was in your newspaper, I think it was just a couple of days ago. So, quite
often, you know, we wonder why we spend the money on some of the strategies
we do. Why do we spend so much money on reducing class sizes when that
money could be more effectively used in spending it on teachers having time to
plan and design together? If you ask a teacher and certainly from our teachers, if
we ask them “Do you want smaller class sizes or time to plan and design
together?”, I know what their answer is. And we also know now from the research
that smaller class sizes, while has an effect and mind you, so does having a
heartbeat, while it has an effect, it doesn‟t have an effect as great as some of the
other strategies. Reciprocal teaching; acceleration - these teaching strategies
have a greater effect on student achievement than smaller class sizes and so
Dave Eddy‟s work, Visible Learning, is an excellent text I can recommend. His
meta-analysis and his research has taken him about 10 years but that book is one
of your … one of what we call our educational canon.

So, this is our theory of action that we developed over those last four or five years
and if the one thing is for our schools if they can keep that construct in their mind,
along with the construct of „What does quality Catholic schooling look like?‟ And
there‟s one other construct, which we‟ll come to, but if they can keep that
construct and work with that construct then certainly we‟re in a very good position.
When people look at this, they might start at the bottom. That‟s not the place to
start. The place to start is at the top and this is evidenced-based design. What‟s
the thing that has the greatest effect size on student learning? And it‟s not class
size; it‟s not socio economic background - it‟s the teacher. It‟s not even the
learning environment – it‟s the teacher, and we know that. It‟s not rocket science
but the research is, there‟s a lot of research now that just affirms that. Now, the
research also says, coming from Helen Timperley, that what is the best strategy
for building teacher capability? The best strategy is the teacher as the learner.
Not going to courses all the time but the teacher as learner in situ, which
subsequently or consequently has a relationship with the school leadership team.
If the teacher is the learner then again who is the school leadership team‟s class?
It‟s the teachers - building the capabilities of the teachers to be better teachers.
So, they are talking and working and discussing about learning, using evidence to
have those conversations and measuring the effect of those things they are doing
in a safe environment. So, the crucial part there is the school leadership team
providing those opportunities and leading those as an instructional leader for
teacher learning, building teacher capacities and capabilities and then system
leadership and when we talk about system leadership, we don‟t talk about the
education office leadership. The system leadership is the combination of the
school leadership teams and the office leadership team. We are all part of the
system leadership team and what that means is then our class, as system
leaders, as schools of leaders, is our other schools. So, we have a responsibility
to work and collaborate with our colleagues because that‟s our class. And these
are the people, which you know, I‟m just going through that we work through from
the top, you know, understanding learning. Certainly, we‟ve done a lot of work
with Stephen Heppell and Marco, and certainly John Hattie, Helen Timperley,
Viviane Robinson, David Eddy and Michael Fulham.

So, the question would be “In your school or your system, what is your theory of
action? What are you working from? Is there a clear construct for moving

In 2010, the new normal - the new normal is that we are all learners – teacher as
learner; student as learner. High yield strategies; school implementation plans,
which we‟re now learning about – what are they? They‟re not school plans.
They‟re not school plans traditionally. The implementation plans being precise,
being measurable. And our principal master class. So, when we look at it, we do
have this educational canon which is made up of research. It‟s made up of
colleagues and reference material but it‟s certainly … everything we do, as I said,
it‟s going from „I think‟ to „we know‟. What do we know? What does the literature
say? And how are we measuring the evidence of the effectiveness of what we are
doing? And when we talk about our new normal and it is really moving onto
precision, it‟s the precision in which we use data and feedback. It‟s the precision
of … of concentrating our efforts on the big rocks, not the little pebbles. If any of
you have watched the Covey, there‟s a very good Covey video. If you just do a
Google search for „big rocks‟ and it talks about not being side-tracked by all the
other things that are going on in the school. What are your big rocks at your
school? I‟ve got it on my computer somewhere, which if we get time, I‟ll show you.
And our high-yield strategies, data and feedback; and what does data look like?

  So, when we‟re talking about going back to our theory of action, our construct -
student learning; teaching; teacher learning; school leadership; system leadership
– each of those five areas have different data sets, both quantitative and
qualitative. What are they? What do they look like and how … what are we going
to use to measure the effectiveness? How are we going to know how effective
teaching is? How effective teacher learning is? How effective school leadership
is? So, what are the data sets – quantitative and qualitative – and the feedback
that goes with them? So, when you sum it up and try and pull it all together, that‟s
essentially what we‟re talking about.
             On your right hand side, student performance, you know, what do our teachers
             know? What do they need to know? So, how do you gather that data? In terms
             of then school performance, yeah? What do our leaders know? What do they
             need to know? And then system performance – how do we measure that?

             One of the key bits of research for us is Helen Timperley‟s inquiry model, and
             that‟s how we do our learning. Our learning is inquiry- based. So, teacher as
             learning through inquiry. So, it is cyclic, you know – what are my students‟
             learning needs? And I don‟t know though if I don‟t have the data. And we are still
             gathering that data because we haven‟t had any in the past. We‟ve had a lot of
             data that‟s after the fact and kids turn up in Year 3 and they do a test and it says
             something‟s going wrong. They turn up in Year 7 and something‟s going wrong,
             well it‟s too late. So, we need to look at this data. What is the data we‟re
             gathering and how do we know it‟s going to make a difference? So, again, what
             are our student learning needs? That inquiry model is exactly the same for our
             teachers. So, if my school leader, working with my school leadership – if my class
             is my teachers, then what are their learning needs? How do I know their learning
             needs? How effective are the things that we are trialling? So, we‟ve gone from
             professional development now, using this model to teacher learning - teacher as

             I‟ve just got a couple of videos now - one‟s Michael Hopley. He‟s at a school of
             200. It‟s a one-stream primary school, 200 kids. It was a very old 1950s school,
             very old, with your standard traditional brick and fibro and small classrooms. We
             started knocking it down and we‟re going to do it in stages and so, we already had
             a plan and then the Building Education Revolution came along, so we actually
             then were able to knock it completely down. And it was on a postage stamp by
             the way, no grass, just bitumen. So, we certainly rebuilt that school and over that
             period of time, Michael‟s been working extensively with his staff – with his staff as
             „teachers as learners‟. That‟s what the new space looks like. As I said, 200 kids
             in one space. So, the space reflects the type of learning we want and there‟ll be
             more … I can show you more photos later but I want to get to the point about
             teacher as learner.

Video-Teacher 1: The way that the teachers are is very different now because they‟ve
            changed teaching in a way that happens in there almost on a weekly basis. It
            changes and it changes and it changes again and I really think that those changes
            reflect the whole notion of the teachers thinking about their planning, assessing
            children at where they‟re at and changing the teaching based on that assessment.
            It‟s the most powerful use of assessment in terms of informing your teaching.
            Those kind of changes didn‟t really happen that rapidly, but they do now, and one
            of the other strong pieces of evidence is the way our children are using
            technology. So, we have children who are really engaged in using interactive
            whiteboards and computers and film equipment, and we‟ve just started a radio
            station and, you know, beginning a radio station sounds like a sort of unusual
            thing in a school but it‟s essentially a very smooth kind of operation for our
            children, it‟s like, “Yes, that‟s a good idea. We‟ll get right into that” and they‟ve
            really organised it well.
Speaker 1:   At his school, just on the holidays, there was about 30 … he had about 30
             international visitors and it was actually during the holidays and a couple of
             teachers came in because Michael was actually on leave and they were the Kindy
             teachers and one of the questions from the audience was, “You know, how do you
             know? How do you know this is making a difference?” and the Kindy teacher had
             the evidence. [Inaudible 00:42:08]. It wasn‟t the qualitative evidence in terms of
             NAPLAN results because they just were not at that stage yet but she was saying
             that the Kindy students this year because of, you know, their teacher learning and
             building capacity, they are now starting the next stage outcomes, whereas
             previously they always took up the whole year. They are noticing a remarkable or
             a significant difference in the way kids are learning and what they can learn.

Video:       So ,there‟s data that we can measure and then data that we can‟t as yet.

Speaker 1:   We‟ll just go back in a minute. Just hang on before you go, Dave. This video here,
             we had a parent forum, we advertised for parents to come along because there‟s
             a lot of conversation out there about our new spaces because most of our primary
             schools, actually all of our primary schools, have spaces like that. Not new
             spaces but refurbished spaces where teachers are working with teachers. In
             some instances, we didn‟t get some of those circles around the … what we call
             „quality Catholic schooling‟. So, we didn‟t get the community dimension right, or
             we didn‟t get the learning environment right and a couple of times we nearly had
             riots. You know, the community were up in arms. Just at a couple of schools. So,
             what we did is we had a forum. We invited people along and we had about
             300-400 parents come along and we had it at a school, one of our schools that
             has been refurbished and we ran it like a Q&A session on ABC. So, we had
             questions from the audience, etc - video questions. Now, the teacher you‟re
             seeing is Tracy. Tracy is at one of our schools. She‟s a leading educator and
             these are her comments back to one of those questions.

Video - Tracy:       There‟s data that we can measure and there‟s data that we can‟t as yet.
             So, things that we can measure that you‟re familiar with is things like reading
             levels; our writing standards that we get from the children; the numeracy skills that
             they‟ve acquired every day. They‟re things that we can measure and we can
             constantly track where they started and what growth they‟ve made across the
             year. We can use the example at my school that since the last three years of the
             [inaudible 00:44:39] learning spaces have been implemented, we‟ve seen a
             significant growth in our reading levels. In kindergarten alone, we have an
             average of about … and I‟m going to use the examples because this is what is
             relevant to you guys but things that the children were reading at about a 10,
             whereas now we can get them up to about a 15. Why? We ask why. Why is
             there that growth? What‟s happened? I‟m still doing the same good practice in
             my classroom now as I did, you know, three years ago. Is it because I have my
             colleagues around me and is it because I‟m learning as a teacher and because I‟m
             doing those things the children are doing those things as well? So, that‟s a
             measureable growth that we can see but what can‟t be measured is things like the
             levels of independence that the children are coming out with. The fact that they‟re
             risk takers – they‟re a lot more of a risk taker than they were before. The fact that
             they know how and have the ability to work in teams and be collaborative …
             because that‟s what they‟re seeing us doing every day as well. And you‟re also
             seeing the growth in what the teachers are making and that‟s something that‟s
             also not measureable, but every day we‟re learning and if we‟re learning, the
             children are learning as well.

Speaker 1:   Just on that slide there also – is that the right slide, we‟ll come back to that
             conversation. I just want to point something out. That‟s Greg, he‟s the guy behind
             with the purple tie, my boss. All these videos, a lot of the videos, we actually
             paste up to Greg‟s YouTube channel. Okay, so you can actually access them and
             there are probably 50 odd … at least 50 odd videos up there. Very big videos of
             conversations, learning conversations and, you know, so certainly keep and use
             those as you want; download if you want. You can click We‟ve got no
             problem there but certainly you‟re welcome to those. So, just do a YouTube
             search for Greg Whitby. But those points Tracy were making, we find those time
             and time again at a lot of our schools. Those points have changed and is there
             any effect? Yes, there is. Do we need to get better at capturing that effect? Yes,
             we do, but certainly the early evidence is there is an effect and it‟s positive.

             What I might do, Dave, is just flick over to Safari and just see if anyone has any
             questions on … the third one there. That‟s it, there we go.

             Who went to the school [inaudible 00:47:24] Catherine McAuley? Catherine
             McAuley, a very traditional school. In actual fact, I was just … I‟m just in
             conversations with them in terms of re-designing, doing the learning design first.
             What does learning look like? Where do we want to go? And I‟ve got some plans
             here. We‟re just having that conversation now and at the moment, they are chalk
             and cheese those schools.
             YouTube or YouTube, Facebook Legal, they‟re conditions associated with the
             American terms of reference, you tick and whatnot. I understand it says 13 and
             above. I don‟t know how applicable that is to Australian Law. It‟s a terms and
             conditions, so I really … it‟s not a legal … it‟s not legally held in Australia but it is a
             terms and condition, so I couldn‟t answer that but like most people, I just click
             through. Is that good though?

             And as I said, our students with special needs certainly … I do have a video of
             teachers talking about that to our parent community and responding to that. If we
             get time, I can also flick that up. Are there any other questions there that haven‟t
             been … haven‟t been raised that you‟d like some conversation before we just
             move on.

Question:    What about student leaders?

Speaker 1:   Yeah, student voice. Most definitely, and those kids you saw earlier on are
             certainly school leaders. But student voice has a significantly high effect size in
             terms of improving … in terms of student achievement. Most definitely. Yep?

Question:    One issue that classroom teachers are facing is… for years we‟re preparing kids
             or testing maths, you know, traditional set-up where they‟re sitting down with a
             pen and paper and at the same time we‟re trying to get them ready for a digital
             world. So, there‟s no sort of … there‟s no data saying where [inaudible 00:49:55]?

Speaker 1:   That‟s a good … very good conversation. I‟m on the committee for the New South
             Wales Board of Studies, you know, they‟re just talking about using computers for
             assessment in some of the HSC stuff. They are so far behind and certainly, you
             know, handwriting per se … As a skill, very valuable, don‟t dismiss it but should it
             limit me expressing my learning and what I know? That‟s a good question and
             certainly being involved with those people who are setting external assessment,
             it‟s a good question.

Speaker 1:   Teaching to the test we‟ve known, we‟ve noticed and certainly Brother Pat could
             have attained that, that you know it was the school that taught to the test in some
             regard but now that these kids are now using project-based learning as their
             pedagogical approach, their HSC results have gone right through the roof.
             Okay, I‟ll just move on, just aware of the time too.

             Connecting pedagogy with space. This is where it actually, you know, gets some
             visible differences and you can see some things but it‟s the last point on the
             journey. The journey is first of all, what do we understand about the verbs of
             learning? What does it look like, both student learning and teacher learning? And
             hence, how do we provide the spaces to facilitate that? So, certainly our aim up
             there … you know, designing spaces that enhance students and teachers as
             learners, which is quite powerful, supported by the tools. So, there‟s no limitation
             on the tools teachers use or students can use in our system.

             Just some terminology as I‟m talking about this area. When I‟m talking about a
             learning space, I‟m talking about a series of connected learning settings. In a
             traditional classroom, which is usually about 60 square metres, well someone
             said, “You know, if you‟re sitting in a chair, you only need one and a half to two
             square metres of space. One and a half, give you one and a half and there was a
             bit of space up the front for the teacher. That‟s it. That‟s it; you‟ve got 60 square
             metres. Sixty square metres will not provide you with the space required to get
             really innovative in terms of learning settings. You‟re limited to the number of
             learning settings. I can certainly do a few learning settings but if I‟m just in that
             space, it‟s very limited and hence why we have used quite often libraries because
             libraries provided us the space, which were connected learning settings. In our
             designs, we‟re moving now so we get that opportunity back and we‟re bringing the
             books into the spaces. So, the kids have access to the books all the time. They
             don‟t have to check them in and out. They‟re there all the time for them to use
             and so are the settings. They can move around to the different settings. So, the
             whole conversation about libraries is then another conversation because libraries
             once upon a time provided physical opportunity that your current classrooms

             So, this is how we think about it and we‟re through thinking about it, which is really
             about, you know, a game reiterating what do we know about learning? What do
             we … where are we going? What are our principles? What does contemporary
             learning and teaching look like? And then the learning spaces, what should they
             look like? And so this is just a simple way of articulating that. So, principles –
             what we value; what we know - that should be what we know, not we believe;
             what we do and how we do it and then finally, where the learning gap is. And it‟s
             a cyclic process where once upon a time, there was understanding about learning,
             there was a design … well, I don‟t know if there was a design but certainly we‟ve
             got a space, or we walked into a space and that was it. There was no opportunity
             for that conversation. And when we don‟t have that opportunity, we get it wrong
             and I can tell you just from yesterday, we‟ve got it wrong again in one of our
             schools because we didn‟t have that opportunity. Can you just pull that back,

Video:       [inaudible 00:54:35]

Speaker 1:   So, just before it starts again, as I said, we‟ve done a lot of work with Stephen
             Heppell and this is a conversation we had with Steve.

Video:       One of the things all teachers learn is „Where do you get your ideas from?‟ Do you
             get them from colleagues, do you get them from other schools, do you get them
             from the moments when your experience touches others‟ experience? Learning
             with and talking to the students about what works for them? It doesn‟t mean that
             the student‟s going to lead you by the nose [inaudible 00:55:08]. We‟ve got
             schools all round the world that are looking at new models of learning and some
             pretty remarkable things from schools out there with the closing the staff rooms
             and the children sharing the space with…you know. We‟ve got schools that are
             doing month-long timetable blocks. You can do a whole subject in one month and
             move on. All these schools that are trialling things like this are all doing it for one
             reason – things got better. So, as a teacher, you know, faced with an agile space,
             which is a blank sheet of paper, you know, [inaudible 00:55:38] is actually a
             [inaudible 00:55:40] person who will talk to other people and use the spaces like it,
             and are a year or two years, or three years or four years down the path. Secondly,
             you have to do this as a team. You can‟t have three people turning up who will
             say “We‟ll teach the lesson that we used to teach” It isn‟t going to work, you know,
             any more than you take three people that learnt to ride a horse – you put them in a
             car and [inaudible 00:56:03]. So, it‟s a new world. It‟s a new thing, but dialogue is
             actually the key to all this. Hallelujah, we‟re not in a world anymore where
             teachers are told what to do, they‟re expected to … in a world where teachers are
             expected to use their professional judgment on doing it better and doing it better
             means not doing it differently but it means being asked, not being told and the key
             thing here is to discover what works and talk around it because you can‟t … the
             world actually is full of great ingredients of learning and all that means where
             people have tried [inaudible 00:56:39]. I‟ve stolen from Scandinavia kids taking
             their shoes off in schools. I love that, the kids taking their shoes off when they
             come in, [inaudible 00:56:44] and take their shoes off. Their testosterone is in
             their shoes, the boys, you know. They just behave differently with their shoes off;
             it works. So, reach out to other places, other colleagues, borrow their [inaudible
             00:56:56] and fill with [inaudible 00:56:57]. Your school is full of unique children,
             unique staff in unique circumstances in a unique context and a unique culture.
             You know, nothing out there will identically work for you, but chatting to [inaudible
             00:57:12] is your local recipe [inaudible 00:57:13]. All I‟m telling you is use the
             ingredients that are tested and try it in 21st Century schools and build yourself and
             you learn from it [inaudible 00:57:24].

Speaker 1:   So, just two points about that video. First of all, if you reflect back to Michael
             Fulham, behaviour before beliefs, that‟s the key. One of the main … you know, it
             has a huge effect. So, how are your teachers, your schools getting the
             opportunity to look at those different behaviours? And the second one there,
             which he didn‟t … really he touched on it, but it‟s certainly about, you know, we
             know kids. We know what happens and what excites them. We know when
             there‟s a musical or there‟s a performance that the kids stay late. They are there
             lunchtime, morning tea, after school, before school. What are we doing in those
             spaces in those settings? How are we working with the kids? What are the kids
             doing? What are their verbs of learning and why aren‟t we doing that in the
             classrooms or in the other spaces? And we wonder why they get bored. We
             know what works. We really do.

             So, we talked about some rules of what we do know. This is very good. There‟s a
             few of these conversations. This is, you know, we use this and certainly, you
             know, it‟s interesting talking to Stephen and we were talking about this and he said
             “Yes, he‟s got this Rule of 3” and I said, “Yeah, that‟s what we‟ve come up with,
             too”, which is really about never more than three walls and by the way, if there‟s
             only … and this comes to the second point, no fewer than three points of focus.
             We know where we haven‟t got three points of focus, it doesn‟t work and we have
             to go back and do something and that‟s what we‟ve been doing just recently in
             another school. We did a design that‟s nearly seven years old and it doesn‟t work.
             And always be able to accommodate at least three teachers and three classes.
             No more than three walls means they can work together. So, we can have the
             space so kids can, where we can personalise the learning and have different
             settings inside that space. Three points of focus for again the different settings
             and the three teachers, three classrooms. We want teachers to provide spaces
             for teacher as a learner. We want teachers to have the opportunity to design, plan
             and reflect together through an inquiry model. If we don‟t have that opportunity,
             then it becomes very difficult because at lunchtime, I‟m usually doing playground
             duty. It becomes very difficult for our teachers to work together because of the
             other things going on in the school. And this is what you really … this is one of the
             blockers and this is where we came unstuck a couple of times. It‟s where the
             school community or the leadership team of the school couldn‟t respond to the
             community‟s request. They didn‟t have it all together. They didn‟t have all the
             data, the evidence, etc together and so it‟s crucial that as school leaders, that we
             have that. We know what we‟re talking about. So, when we talk about connected
             learning settings, these are connected learning settings to personalise the
             learning, deprivatize the practice and finally, using today‟s tools. So, our learning
             settings are technology connected. They are have the wireless connectivities stuff
             and they can do what they want.

             Building Education Revolution came along and gave us a lot of money and Greg
             actually rang me up one day and said, “Paul, can you come up? I‟ve got a job for
             you.” [Inaudible 01:00:11] five minutes and he said, “No, I want you to project lead
             this. I want you to lead this.” I thought, “Oh, you know, when am I going to do
that?” and he said, “I‟ll take you off everything else and for the next 18 months
that‟s what I want you to do.” The issue was we had facilities teams and officers
working out of an old paradigm. Restricted by what they saw as requirements -
can‟t I have a stove; can‟t I have this? And I said, “Well, hang on a tick, no, no.
Let‟s look at what does learning look like? This is what we want learning to look
like. These are the settings.” So, we sit down. “How many kids? These are the
settings. This is what we understand about learning. This is what we want it to
look like. Now, go away, architect, and come back and give us the diagram to
make it work and then we‟ll have a look at it” and “Okay, sorry, but where you put
that practical area there doesn‟t work. You‟ve got the settings right but it doesn‟t
work. Can you have another crack at it?” And so, we worked very closely with our
architects, with our schools, so the school community … the school leadership
was involved, the whole community wasn‟t because it just wasn‟t the time and that
became sometimes an issue for us but certainly the school leadership were
involved and still are but when they‟re not, we ran into problems. When
something goes amiss.

So, as we all know, the very old classroom, so this was one of our schools, our
standard classrooms, designed for schooling as we say, pretty standard. Those
rooms were actually about 70 square metres actually and that whole corridor was
a space. That was half a classroom. So, we look at ways of how do we get new
space. How do we get new space? So, we talk about design for learning and so
in that case there, you can see the different focus areas. You can see that
certainly there are more than three teachers working together or the opportunity
for it. There‟s still a lot of work at the moment and it‟s personalised. So, these are
the opportunities and these are some of the plans, and as you can see there, one
of the things that‟s quite often missed in these spaces is break-out rooms,
acoustic break-out rooms. Acoustics are extremely important. Get that wrong and
it won‟t work. Alright, so it‟s very good acoustics and we want break-out rooms.
We want recording rooms. These are glass, audio acoustically treated rooms, so I
can as a teacher visually supervise from anywhere. I can connect with my kids
but I want the opportunity for the kids to go to these rooms to do some
brainstorming; to do some videoing; to do some audio recording. I want them to
be able to use the multimedia technologies that are available and to connect.
They need to connect and do a Skype conference, no problem. Go in there and
do it.

Now, what helped us immensely? I‟ve done a lot of research from around the
world when I was onto this and one of them was one of your documents, which is
your pedagogical space document and out of that there‟s a couple of pages … this
is one of them. When I was working with the schools and saying, “Well, what are
we talking about in terms of these settings?” This was one of them. Why?
Because not only did it very easily allow people to understand what I was talking
about but it also then let you then as you click through the book, tells you exactly
how much space that takes up, so I could give it to the architects. I gave this
document to the architects. I took them on a workshop and said, “This is what we
think about learning. This is how we know learning … we want learning to occur.
So, when you‟re designing, this is what you should be thinking about.” And this is
the supplementary document, which then goes into ... which is out of the same
Victorian document, which talks about the spaces. So, our schools had to
articulate learning first, what the settings looked like before anything else, before
the architect could do anything. How many students were accommodated for, etc.
What does the … what is that pedagogical activity and again, what does it look
like? It was a very helpful document and as I said, these are the things that we
ended up with, and I‟ll show you some real pictures in a moment but these were
the designs. As you can see there, this one here, two-strength school and
another catchphrase „studio stage audience‟. So, the rule of three and studio
stage audience. You know, where is my audience now? As a child, my audience
is both physical and virtual and so we want to make sure we have presentation
areas and in this case here, you‟ll see that the library is actually integrated on this
floor and another floor. The money [inaudible 01:06:11] and in some other
spaces, the BER money was spent on building halls, there‟s no research that says
building a hall will improve student achievement. So, while it could, we went with
… we had a strategy, our theory of action - better settings for the kids; to
personalise the learning; better opportunity for teachers to work with each other
and learn. As you can see that that activity there, that‟s one of the designs. On
the left hand side of that are the old classrooms. Small classrooms, just knock the
walls down, and the architects, I‟d say to them, “Can you just take that wall out
and …” I think I could say it easier than they could do it a lot of the time but so
there‟s quite a [inaudible 01:06:56].

This is a one-stream school and in there there‟d be 200 kids I think it is. And
what I asked the architects to do was I would need them to visualise these
settings for us. I needed them to visualise and not only that, our principals were
going out onto the playground areas and drawing spaces because it‟s hard to
understand what a space is but I can tell you from our experience that if I‟m
designing a space that used to be 60 square metres, it‟s now going to be 90
square metres and it‟s not going to be just one class, it‟ll be several of them
together. So, 30 kids, 90 square metres. And I get that through not having
corridors. So, as you can see those spaces. So, this is what it looked like. So,
this is St Monica‟s again.      Two hundred kids here, just happily working,
acoustically triggered. They hardly ever had the lights on because of the design,
which did cause an issue because we had to get some blinds because of the
presentation area, it was too bright, but the cupboards … even the cupboards … I
designed the cupboards so that they absorb the sound, I mean I said … I asked
them what I wanted but I knew what was going in them. I needed the laptop
trolleys to go into them. I didn‟t want them out ugly everywhere, so they had to
design … now, there‟s a series of cupboard designs now for our system. So, if
you‟re using the interactive whiteboard, you‟ve got somewhere to put your laptop.
If you‟ve got a bunch of Nintendo DSs and you‟re working on using them for
literacy or numeracy. Mind you, Scribble Noughts is excellent for that. If I‟m using
them for literacy and numeracy, I‟ve got to be able to store them somewhere. So,
we‟ve got cupboard designs that are like big Tupperware drawers, so you can fit
things in them. So, we worked with our teachers to say, “Well, do these designs
work? Now, let‟s look at the space and design these in.” Not only that, the budget
was designed for furniture. When I first had a look at what they were doing in
facilities, they gave them a 2% budget of whatever the total was for furniture,
which would certainly buy 30 tables and chairs and that‟s it. So, I said, “No, that‟s
not enough. We‟re upping that to 5%.” If I can‟t make this space work from day
one, there‟s a fair chance it won‟t work. Behaviour before beliefs.

That‟s just another angle and even those tubs there, so quite often people say,
“The kids don‟t have their own table and chair.” The kids have their own space.
Where do they go with their tote box? So, their tote box they can move wherever
they like. Very structured though; more structured than ever before. Teachers
work harder but those were designed by the Principal and the staff, and in fact the
low tables … what they‟re doing once is they had these … at one school they had
tables, you know, where you‟ve got the four quadrants and they used to put a
computer there and as the builders were coming in to put one of those in and it
was upside down on the floor and the legs weren‟t on it yet and the kids were
using it and so the Principal said, “Leave that and I want five more.” And so now,
we‟ve got a lot of those designs, so the kids can sit on the floor and they‟ve got a
solid top round, you can fit about eight or nine kids around it.

There‟s a very good design, which I took a picture just yesterday at the Virgin
terminal, which is a very good collaborative desk, nice and wide and it‟ll seat
10 people and I took pictures of it because people were using it for collaboration.
These spaces, as I said, are the media rooms, green rooms; so we did the green
walls, etc. I‟ve just got to hurry up because I‟m running right out of time.

These spaces again, here we have TVs that are connected to the internet, so they
could Skype straightaway. You can buy the TVs now that are internet connected,
so you don‟t need a computer. Different settings, different focus areas, radio
stations, very good literacy strategies, break-out rooms – this space has about
200. They didn‟t know about this, I said I want some paint for the wall. I want
white but I want a dual purpose thing, multiple purpose things. This is called
whiteboard paint. It‟s painted on the wall. It‟s not cheap, but it‟s not dear either
and I wanted whiteboard paint on the wall, so kids can use it at their height to do
concept mapping and planning and designing and then I can project onto it. Just
make sure you organise for someone to clean that wall every day otherwise it
becomes like any other board.

Secondary college … So, again, we see these spaces, connected spaces,
different sizes, but they all articulated why they wanted them. That one we just
passed of one of the plans connected [inaudible 01:11:59]. I just want to quickly
go through this because this is the plan that‟s in place. One of our spaces didn‟t
work – secondary because it was designed seven years ago and was just a barn,
really. And so, we had to go back and say that the school now … because they‟re
used to this process have gone through about what does learning look like and
then summarised it in this, to say this space up here is for 150-180 people and
we‟re going to design it so it‟s made up of about 10 learning settings and this is
what we want. And they went ahead without … they‟d done this without any
physical infrastructure, they just used the furniture but it‟s a trial because then we
might look at, well can we supplement that or make it better if this works? But you
can see how the depth they went to understanding the setting times and even
down to the furniture, so when you look through this, you‟ll see learning setting
number 7, which talks about the tubs, tub chairs for … they even know the size
now. 750ml tubs and this is what it‟ll look like. They did a simple plan-up. They
did this themselves because there was no money … and that‟s what they did
themselves. And what they‟ve done, they took the students and teachers up there
and said, “Well, how do you think learning‟s going to look like now?” „Behaviour
before beliefs‟ because before this, it was just a … it just didn‟t work. And in a
couple of cases we already had big spaces, so we had to build a hall but what we
did with the hall was I asked them to put these big … they‟re called red leader
doors, they‟re doors that are made of glass, like fire engine door, you know, the
fire doors at fire places and you just press a button and they all open up. The
whole door opens up. So, these are red leader doors and the glass door just
opens up and down. So, we get this extra space and connection to outside.
And I‟ve gone over time and look, there‟s a lot of resources that we have and I‟ll
make them available. I‟ll give them to someone here, so you can actually access

Thanks very much.

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