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0001 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE FIRST JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND

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0001
 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE FIRST JUDICIAL CIRCUIT
        IN AND FOR OKALOOSA COUNTY, FLORIDA
 2
 3 STATE OF FLORIDA,
 4          Plaintiff,
 5                       CASE NO. 2009-CF-1481
   vs.
 6
   JAMES DAVID YACKS,
 7
           Defendant.
 8 __________________________________/
 9
10
11         TRANSCRIPT OF DEPOSITION OF
12              MARK SCHNIEPP
13
14        Taken on behalf of the Defendant
15
16        DATE TAKEN: April 12, 2010
17        TIME:        11:45 a.m., CST.
18        PLACE:        Trawick Reporting & Video
                 Fort Walton Beach, Florida
19
20
21      Examination of the witness taken before:
22
23          TRAWICK REPORTING & VIDEO
           NINA E. TRAWICK, RPR, FPR
24            Post Office Box 1064
           Shalimar, Florida 32579
25       (850) 651-2555 FAX: (850) 651-9555
0002
 1              APPEARANCES
 2 FOR THE PLAINTIFF:
 3 OFFICE OF THE STATE ATTORNEY
   ATTORNEYS AT LAW
 4 190 Governmental Center
   Pensacola, Florida 32501
 5
   BY: Russ Edgar, Esquire

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 6
 7 FOR SANDRA NORRIS:
 8 J. CHRISTOPHER KLOTZ, PC
   ATTORNEY AT LAW
 9 1211 West Garden Street
   Pensacola, Florida 32591
10
11 FOR MICHAEL COUP:
12 JAMES MURRAY
   JULIA MURRAY
13 ATTORNEYS AT LAW
   420 E. Pine Avenue
14 Crestview, Florida 32536
15
   FOR THE DEFENDANT JAMES DAVID YACKS:
16
   CHESSER & BARR, P.A.
17 ATTORNEYS AT LAW
   1201 Eglin Parkway
18 Shalimar, Florida 32579
19 By: Nickolas G. Petersen, Esquire
20
21
22
23
24
25
0003
 1                INDEX
 2 WITNESS                           PAGE
 3     MARK SCHNIEPP
 4 DIRECT EXAMINATION (By Mr. Murray) - - - - - - 4
 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION (By Mr. Petersen) - - - - - - 99
 6 REDIRECT EXAMINATION (By Mr. Murray) - - - - -106
 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION (By Mr. Klotz) - - - - - -107
 8 CERTIFICATE OF OATH - - - - - - - - - - - - - -138
 9 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER - - - - - - - - - - - -139
10 CORRECTION & REVISION SHEET - - - - - - - - - -140
11
12                EXHIBITS
13 DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1 (FBI report) - - - - - - 9
14 DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 2 (Investigative report) -95
15

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16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
0004
 1               MARK SCHNIEPP
 2        The witness, having been asked to swear to
 3 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
 4 truth, was examined by counsel and testified as
 5 follows, to-wit:
 6             DIRECT EXAMINATION
 7 BY MR. MURRAY:
 8     Q Would you state your full name?
 9     A Mark Schniepp, S-C-H-N-I-E-P-P, as in Paul.
10     Q Your occupation, sir?
11     A Deputy sheriff, Okaloosa County Sheriff's
12 Office.
13     Q And you've had your deposition taken before?
14     A I have in the past. Not in this case.
15     Q You understand that you -- if you don't
16 understand one of my questions, you have the right to
17 stop and ask me to clarify?
18     A I do.
19     Q So that you know precisely it is what I'm
20 asking?
21     A Yes.
22     Q You also know that head nods and uh-huhs and
23 those kind of things are not things that make for a
24 clean record and cause the court reporter concern?
25     A That's correct.
0005
 1     Q You are also aware of the fact that you need
 2 to wait until I complete the question, even though you
 3 know the answer and you will probably be right most of
 4 the time, but you need to let me complete my question
 5 before you answer?
 6     A I will do that.

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 7    Q How long have you been in law enforcement?
 8    A In law enforcement, approximately 29 years.
 9    Q When did you first start?
10     A In the Air Force Security Forces, worked
11 Niceville PD for a year, and I'm going on my 24th year
12 at Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office.
13     Q The date that you were with the Air Force
14 Security Forces?
15     A 1981 to 1985.
16     Q Then Niceville PD?
17     A 1985, 1986.
18     Q And the Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office?
19     A 1986 to present.
20     Q And your current rank?
21     A Is major.
22     Q Did you come up through the ranks?
23     A Yes, I did.
24     Q Did you have the rank of corporal?
25     A No. Corporal didn't exist.
0006
 1    Q What about sergeant?
 2    A Yes.
 3    Q Do you recall when you -- what year you were
 4 promoted to sergeant?
 5    A January 1997.
 6    Q Under what administration was that?
 7    A Let me back up. Under the Gilbert
 8 administration, an investigator had the equivalent to
 9 a sergeant, and I was in charge of C Square. In 1997
10 I was transferred to problem-oriented policing and
11 when Charlie Morris took office, then I was made a
12 sergeant, title-wise.
13     Q And then were you later promoted to
14 lieutenant?
15     A Yes, I was.
16     Q What year?
17     A 1997.
18     Q Same year that Charlie Morris promoted you
19 to sergeant?
20     A Yes.
21     Q And promoted to captain?
22     A July 2002.
23     Q Then to major?

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24     A Major.
25     Q What year was that?
0007
 1    A 19 -- or 2005, I'm sorry, I think.
 2    Q Are you familiar with the term command
 3 staff?
 4    A Yes.
 5    Q What ranks are involved in command staff?
 6    A Captain and above.
 7    Q Okay.
 8    A You have to be kind of specific.
 9    Q I will get more specific.
10     A Okay.
11     Q What is your educational level?
12     A High school. Numerous hours, thousand plus
13 of supplemental training, some college.
14     Q What year did you graduate from high school?
15     A 1976.
16     Q How much college do you have?
17     A I'm trying to think. I don't know. Under
18 an Associate's Degree. It didn't quite meet the
19 requirements for an associate.
20     Q Somewhere between one and two years?
21     A Yes.
22     Q And where were those hours obtained from?
23     A Community College of the Air Force, Okaloosa
24 Walton college.
25     Q Okay. Did -- what we're here -- and this is
0008
 1 a consolidated discovery deposition. So there's
 2 actually three defendants present. I will limit
 3 mine -- I represent Michael Coup. I'm going to limit
 4 my questions to Mr. Coup. The other attorney,
 5 Mr. Petersen represents Mr. Yacks, and Mr. Klotz
 6 represents Sandy Norris.
 7    A Okay.
 8    Q Did you write any investigative reports
 9 concerning the incident out of which these criminal
10 charges arose?
11     A No.
12     Q Was there some reason why you did not?
13     A I wasn't the investigating officer.
14     Q Okay. Did you actually participate in the

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15 investigation conducted by the FBI?
16     A Yes.
17     Q And did you write any reports about your
18 participation?
19     A No.
20     Q Was there any reason why you did not?
21     A I wasn't asked to.
22     Q What about the investigation done by FDLE
23 and the State Attorney's Office?
24     A No.
25     Q Did you participate in it?
0009
 1    A No.
 2    Q And prior to getting on the record I noticed
 3 that you had in front of you some reports, and you
 4 have indicated that you reviewed those reports?
 5    A That's correct.
 6    Q That was in an effort to prepare you to give
 7 this deposition?
 8    A That's correct.
 9    Q Feel free to look at it. Now, just so we
10 make the record clear, and we'll mark this as an
11 exhibit, these -- none of these reports were
12 authorized by you, were they?
13     A No.
14     Q These are all reports by primarily federal
15 officers?
16     A That's correct.
17
18                (Defendant's Exhibit No. 1 was
19                marked for identification purposes
20                only.)
21
22     Q Who supplied you with these reports?
23     A Ms. Carrier (phonetic).
24     Q Give those back to you.
25            Now, after you were promoted to
0010
 1 captain -- strike the question. Let me back up.
 2           Are you familiar with what is
 3 euphemistically been called a daily breakfast staff
 4 meeting between the sheriff and certain members of his
 5 agency that occurred around 5:00 to 6:00 a.m. in the

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 6 morning?
 7    A The Breakfast Place, yes.
 8    Q And was that a staff meeting or was it a
 9 social event or how did you view it?
10     A I categorized it as a staff meeting because
11 I became -- I started going to the breakfast meetings
12 in July of 2002 upon my promotion to captain.
13     Q And was your attendance at those expected or
14 mandatory?
15     A I would categorize them as expected by
16 Charlie Morris, yes.
17     Q And where did these meetings normally occur
18 at, at breakfast?
19     A The Breakfast Place off of Beal Street,
20 sometimes other places, but predominately there.
21     Q Who would participate in these meetings?
22     A That depends. Consistently Charlie Morris,
23 the sheriff; Mike Coup, chief deputy; Larry Ashley,
24 Larry Donaldson and myself.
25     Q And then later after you became a major in
0011
 1 2005, were there any captains attending on a regular
 2 basis?
 3    A Well, there was a period of time there that
 4 there was no majors except for Mike Coup at that time
 5 because he was in transition. Phil Irish was chief
 6 deputy. When I was a captain in investigations and
 7 Joe Nelson was my lieutenant, he attended. Then when
 8 I got promoted to captain, Phil Irish retired, Mike
 9 Coup became chief deputy. We got promoted to majors.
10 But essentially it was us. It was Charlie Morris,
11 Mike Coup, Larry Donaldson, myself and Larry Ashley.
12     Q Do you recall who would arrive first as a
13 rule?
14     A Myself or Larry Donaldson -- well, Charlie
15 Morris, obviously. Charlie Morris would get there, I
16 don't know -- I would normally get there between 5:15
17 and 5:30. Charlie Morris would already be eating
18 breakfast.
19     Q Now, did you have these staff meetings when
20 the sheriff was out of town?
21     A He expected us to continue on, yes. He
22 would call us on the radio and check on us.

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23     Q And what was discussed at these staff
24 meetings?
25     A It can be a variety of topics. Events that
0012
 1 happened the night before, something we wanted to
 2 discuss regarding the agency. I mean, it was a
 3 variety of topics.
 4    Q Now, when you talk about things that
 5 happened the night before, are we talking about calls
 6 or calls for service that the sheriff's office had to
 7 respond to?
 8    A It would not be uncommon for Charlie Morris
 9 to quiz you on what happened the night before because
10 he had already talked to the night shift supervisor.
11     Q Was he fairly demanding about the majors
12 staying up to speed on what was going on at the
13 agency?
14     A Constantly.
15     Q Are you familiar with things called
16 integrity checks?
17     A Yes.
18     Q What does that mean to you, in terms of your
19 experience with the sheriff?
20     A My experience with the sheriff, that he
21 would tell me something and tell me not to tell Larry
22 Donaldson or Larry Ashley or Mike Coup. He would
23 follow up telling them the same thing, and he would
24 see whether or not we were talking to each other about
25 a private conversation that he gave us.
0013
 1    Q Okay. Now, you have got military
 2 experience?
 3    A Yes, I do.
 4    Q So I would be safe in assuming that you know
 5 what chain of command is?
 6    A I do.
 7    Q Was there a chain of command in the
 8 sheriff's office?
 9    A Yes.
10     Q Did the sheriff follow that chain of
11 command?
12     A No.
13     Q Would it be fair to say that if somebody

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14 worked for you, was in your chain of command, and one
15 of the other majors wanted to talk to one of your
16 subordinates, that you would expect to be notified or
17 at least be kept abreast of what that inquiry was
18 about?
19     A Yes, sir.
20     Q However, the sheriff did not do that, did
21 he?
22     A No, he did not.
23     Q Now, you told me that calls for service and
24 criminal incidents were discussed; is that a fair
25 statement, at the staff meetings?
0014
 1    A Correct.
 2    Q Issues that were pending of an
 3 administrative nature were discussed?
 4    A Correct.
 5    Q Potential hiring or termination --
 6    A Correct.
 7    Q -- proceedings would be discussed if they
 8 needed to be discussed?
 9    A Yes.
10     Q What about -- how did this group begin to
11 function? Did it begin to function as a close-knit
12 group? And by the group, I'm talking about those
13 other than the sheriff. I'm talking about majors and
14 chief deputy.
15     A Were we friends? What are you asking?
16     Q Well, let's start there. Were you friends
17 with each of these people?
18     A Sure.
19     Q Did you trust each of these people?
20     A Sure.
21     Q Did you confide in these people about
22 certain personal matters?
23     A On occasion.
24     Q And at these breakfast staff meetings, was
25 children and family discussed among the various
0015
 1 majors?
 2    A Yes.
 3    Q What about things concerning college and
 4 whose kid was in college and how they were doing?

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 5     A Yes, sure.
 6     Q Health issues on the part of any people that
 7 were there?
 8     A Yes.
 9     Q Home improvements?
10     A Yes.
11     Q Relationships with parents?
12     A I would guess, Jim, I don't know.
13     Q What I'm getting at is that you've already
14 told me that you trusted -- now, you correct me if I'm
15 wrong -- you trusted each of the other people that
16 were there at the table?
17     A Well, trust varies. There's professional
18 trust and personal trust.
19     Q Let's start with professional trust. Did
20 you trust everybody professionally?
21     A I did, yes.
22     Q Did you have any reason not to trust any of
23 the people, Donaldson, Ashley or Coup with personal
24 trust?
25     A No.
0016
 1     Q So did you trust them personally?
 2     A Yes.
 3     Q Now, one of the -- the primary issue or one
 4 of the primary issues that led to these arrests were a
 5 bonus scheme in which employees were asked to give
 6 money back by the sheriff?
 7     A That's correct.
 8     Q Now, that's where I'm going now with this
 9 next line of questions. A lot of employees at the
10 sheriff's office received bonuses. Is that an
11 accurate statement?
12     A That's correct.
13     Q And the sheriff can legally give a bonus if
14 he chooses to do so?
15     A That's correct.
16     Q Now, while you were at the sheriff's office,
17 did you receive bonuses?
18     A Yes, I did.
19     Q Do you know how many bonuses you received?
20     A No, I do not.
21     Q If I told you that my review of the audit

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22 reports and those types of things reflected that you
23 had received 11 bonuses, would you be in a position to
24 disagree with that?
25     A To disagree?
0017
 1     Q Yes, sir.
 2     A No. I have no reason to at this point.
 3     Q I mean, the records are what the records
 4 reflect, correct?
 5     A That's what the accounting firms say. I
 6 don't trust them either.
 7     Q Have you brought to their attention that you
 8 think they are in error?
 9     A No. But you have an accounting. Well, no,
10 I won't dispute that.
11     Q Now, of those bonuses -- of any of those
12 bonuses, were you asked to give money back to the
13 sheriff from the bonus?
14     A To him personally, no. He asked that of me,
15 yes.
16     Q Did he ask that of you personally, come to
17 you?
18     A Yes, he did.
19     Q And what, if anything, did he say to you or
20 what instructions did he give to you? Let's start
21 with what he said.
22     A Okay. He approached me on an early morning.
23 It was at the sheriff's office. He advised me that we
24 were supposed to get a $6,000 performance pay in lieu
25 of getting a raise. And he told me that he had added
0018
 1 $5,000 to it. He implied that he had paid the taxes
 2 on it so it would be exactly $5,000 more. That he was
 3 going to use this money for charities and directed me
 4 to -- asked me to withdraw it and provide it to Terry
 5 Adams. And go ahead, I'm sorry.
 6     Q If you got some more that you want to add,
 7 feel free. I don't want to interrupt you.
 8     A I asked him, do you want it -- you know,
 9 that it was for charity. And I was a little taken
10 back by it. I asked if he wanted it in cash or check.
11 He said, I want it in the form of cash.
12     Q Now, in backing up and what you just got

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13 through telling me, did the sheriff utilize
14 performance bonuses in lieu of pay raises for his
15 majors?
16     A Yes.
17     Q And do you know --
18     A Well, let me back up. At times. Because we
19 got pay raises, too. You know, you would have to ask
20 him because, honestly, it's confusing.
21     Q Did he ever tell you that this year on one
22 or more years, I'm going to give you a performance
23 bonus instead of a raise?
24     A That's correct.
25     Q Did he ever tell you why he wanted to do it
0019
 1 that way instead of just simply giving you a raise?
 2     A This particular time he said it was because
 3 of -- he didn't want the county commission to know
 4 that the command staff was given raises. I don't know
 5 what he had told me or something.
 6     Q Is this the first time that ever happened?
 7     A When he utilized that, yes.
 8     Q Had he --
 9     A He had given us Christmas performance
10 bonuses or whatever you want to call them, performance
11 pay.
12     Q Was that in lieu of pay raises also?
13     A No.
14     Q If you know?
15     A No, it was not.
16     Q Now, the cultural environment within the
17 sheriff's office, if you know, was it one in which
18 there was a lot of chartable giving going on?
19     A Yes.
20     Q And do you know of your own knowledge
21 whether or not the sheriff had been generous in
22 helping people that had financial need -- employees
23 I'm talking about -- that had financial need or
24 financial emergencies?
25     A Yes.
0020
 1     Q And how many times prior to you being asked
 2 to return $5,000 had that occurred?
 3     A You know, I can't give you a number. I can

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 4 just tell you that over a period of years I've seen
 5 him contribute in different ways to the CAC, through
 6 seized cars for auction. If somebody died or somebody
 7 came -- I know cases where somebody had a hardship in
 8 their family and they have come to him and asked to
 9 sell their leave back. That wouldn't be in your
10 normal circumstance. And he's allowed that. People
11 who have become victims of crimes, one case in
12 particular, an individual lost a three-wheeler, a
13 handicapped individual. He went out and bought one.
14 I don't know how he did it. I didn't ask. The
15 biggest case in reference, which we will get into, I'm
16 sure, was a boy in Shalimar was a victim of a home
17 invasion, him and his mother, where his Xbox 360 was
18 stolen, and that was replaced.
19     Q What about employees who had sustained storm
20 damage during hurricanes?
21     A He probably did. But I don't have any
22 personal knowledge. I heard about it, but I don't
23 have personal knowledge on it.
24     Q Now, did you receive a clothing allowance?
25     A One time -- I was captain. When I got
0021
 1 promoted to captain, they stopped. When I was a
 2 lieutenant in investigations, I got it. Once I was
 3 promoted to captain, I did not receive it. When I
 4 went back to investigations, he gave me one because I
 5 had lost some weight.
 6     Q What was your rank when you went back to
 7 investigations?
 8     A I can't remember.
 9     Q Was it captain or major?
10     A It could have been -- I have been back two
11 or three times. He rotated us.
12     Q If the records reflect you got a --
13     A It was $700, one. Whatever the date. If
14 you got those records.
15     Q August of '08?
16     A Could possibly have been.
17     Q Now, we mentioned -- let me touch on it
18 briefly. When you were at these breakfast meetings
19 and you would share matters of personal information
20 among the majors, Donaldson and Schniepp -- not

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21 Schniepp, obviously -- Donaldson and Coup -- I'm
22 trying to think. Am I missing anybody there?
23     A Ashley.
24     Q And Ashley, did you ever share matters of a
25 personal nature while the sheriff was at the meetings?
0022
 1     A Yes.
 2     Q And did you ever indicate to him or did any
 3 of the other majors indicate in your presence that
 4 they were having various difficulties, either, for
 5 example, problems with kids in college or problems
 6 with parents or things like that in the presence of
 7 the sheriff?
 8     A You mean -- describe problems.
 9     Q Issues. Personal issues that were going on?
10     A If they were having troubles?
11     Q Yes. Concerns.
12     A No more than what any parent would have. I
13 don't remember anything specific.
14     Q Did the sheriff say in front of the group,
15 in a group setting, don't worry about that, I will
16 take care of you?
17     A He very well could have. I don't --
18     Q Do you have any clear recollection of that?
19     A No. But that sounds like him. Sounds like
20 something he would say.
21     Q Okay. Now, during 2007, 2008, you had a
22 daughter, I think, that was in college; did you not?
23     A Correct.
24     Q And was she in nursing school at FSU?
25     A Yes.
0023
 1     Q And did you keep the majors in the group
 2 kind of updated on what her progress was?
 3     A Sure.
 4     Q What about the sheriff?
 5     A Sure.
 6     Q Now, are you aware of whether or not the
 7 sheriff ever assisted you with money to help out with
 8 the expenses associated with that college?
 9     A I'm sure that performance pay that I
10 received was probably part of that, sure.
11     Q Does that have something to do with how the

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12 sheriff would operate in terms of his generosity, that
13 when he saw or thought that there was a need, that he
14 would respond to it?
15     A He could have.
16     Q Did you ever go to the sheriff and say,
17 Sheriff, you know, I have got a lot of expenses with
18 my daughter right now, I could use some money? Did
19 you ever make a request?
20     A No, I have not.
21     Q But based on what you told me, it's your
22 belief that in terms of what went on at the staff
23 meetings, he may have saw a potential need there and
24 responded accordingly?
25     A He could have.
0024
 1    Q Obviously, you don't know what's going on
 2 inside the sheriff's head.
 3    A He confuses me to this day.
 4    Q Does your son -- and I don't want to get
 5 into what the issues are. Does he have some medical
 6 issues?
 7    A Yes, he does.
 8    Q Was any of that ever shared with the group?
 9    A Yes.
10     Q Was the sheriff present?
11     A Yes.
12     Q What about your wife, is there any medical
13 issues with her?
14     A Yes.
15     Q Was that shared with the group?
16     A Yes.
17     Q Now, at the time the sheriff came up to you,
18 and I'm talking about the bonus that you described to
19 me, where he had asked for the $5,000 back and gave
20 you instructions, were you aware at that time of any
21 other employees that had been asked to return money
22 from bonuses?
23     A No.
24     Q Do you know based on the discussions that
25 occurred at the table at these breakfast staff
0025
 1 meetings, whether or not any of the other majors knew
 2 about money being returned?

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 3    A No.
 4    Q Do you have any information that Mike Coup
 5 knew anything about money being returned by employees
 6 or giving bonuses?
 7    A No.
 8    Q Now, I think you told me that -- and we may
 9 not have gotten into it. Did you go and get $5,000 in
10 cash?
11     A Yes, I did.
12     Q And did you go and give that money to Terry
13 Adams?
14     A Yes, I did.
15     Q Were you by yourself or were you with
16 somebody else at the time you delivered the money?
17     A Let me back up, if I may, to give you a
18 better picture. Before I went to the bank -- this is
19 one of those integrity checks that Charlie Morris had
20 said -- obviously, he said, keep this to yourself. Do
21 not tell anybody.
22     Q Now, I hate to interrupt you. Did he say
23 that to you?
24     A Yes.
25     Q Do not tell anybody?
0026
 1    A Yes.
 2    Q Was that -- strike that. Continue on. I'm
 3 sorry. I interrupted you.
 4    A He, at that point -- being what he just said
 5 and what he asked me to do, maybe -- don't seem right
 6 in my mind that -- of course, I talked to others and I
 7 spoke to Larry Donaldson about it, or we connected
 8 somehow. I don't know if he approached me or I
 9 approached him --
10     Q When you say he, who are you referring to?
11     A Larry Donaldson. And asked if something
12 strange just happened. I said, yes. And so we
13 conversed. And we said, if we're going to do this,
14 we're going to do it together. We're going to witness
15 each other.
16     Q Now, did you serve at the pleasure of the
17 sheriff as a major?
18     A Absolutely.
19     Q And did Larry Donaldson serve at the

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20 pleasure of the sheriff?
21     A Absolutely.
22     Q What about Michael Coup?
23     A Absolutely.
24     Q Could the sheriff terminate you for --
25     A Without cause.
0027
 1    Q -- any reason or without cause?
 2    A I'm sorry. Yes.
 3    Q Were you concerned about your job status?
 4    A Yes.
 5    Q Now, you told me that you don't know whether
 6 or not you spoke to Larry Donaldson or Larry Donaldson
 7 spoke to you first. Did I quote you accurately?
 8    A You did.
 9    Q But at any rate, the two of you had a
10 discussion and you decided that you were going to
11 return -- to give the money to Terry Adams as a group?
12     A That's correct.
13     Q What about the integrity check thing?
14 Wouldn't it become immediately apparent or would not
15 be readily apparent to the sheriff that Donaldson knew
16 what you were doing and you knew what Donaldson was
17 doing if the two of you returned money together?
18     A It could have, but it didn't matter for
19 that.
20     Q Now, how long have you known Terry Adams?
21     A Ever since my employ.
22     Q More than 20 years?
23     A Yes.
24     Q And did you have confidence in her?
25     A Absolutely.
0028
 1    Q Was her reputation within the agency as
 2 somebody who kept the agency on the proper track
 3 insofar as the expenditure of funds is concerned?
 4    A That's correct.
 5    Q Are you aware of the period of time that she
 6 was in charge of finance or the money aspect of the
 7 sheriff's department, whether or not there had ever
 8 been a critical audit?
 9    A There could have been. I wouldn't have been
10 exposed to that.

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11      Q But you're not aware of any?
12      A No.
13      Q If you had an issue about money concerning
14 whether or not you could properly expend it or if it
15 was proper -- a proper expenditure of money, would you
16 go to Terry Adams and ask her the question?
17      A Absolutely.
18      Q Did you feel like you could rely upon what
19 she told you?
20      A Yes.
21      Q Did you have any reason to believe that she
22 could be involved in any type of illegal conduct?
23      A No.
24      Q Now, when you and Larry Donaldson went in to
25 see Terry Adams, tell me what occurred.
0029
 1     A We went in, shut the door, sat down, and
 2 presented her with the envelope. I looked at her, and
 3 I told her simply, Terry, look me in the eye and tell
 4 me we're not doing something wrong. And she looked at
 5 me, she said, no, you're not. I wouldn't do that to
 6 you.
 7     Q And based on her representations to you,
 8 were you confident?
 9     A I had never had any reason in this world to
10 distrust her.
11      Q And did you do the talking or did Donaldson
12 do the talking?
13      A We might have both did. She looked at us,
14 she seemed a little nervous to me, now looking back.
15 And I made a joke with her about, this sure seems like
16 money laundering to me. She made reference to the
17 case that I said awhile ago about the boy in Shalimar,
18 that even though this is unorthodox, this is the way
19 that the sheriff can figure out a way to do these
20 charitable things. That being said, I was convinced,
21 and even though it's unorthodox, that it was okay.
22      Q Now, prior to going in and seeing Terry
23 Adams, did you ever go to Mike Coup and tell him that
24 you had any concerns?
25      A No.
0030
 1     Q And is there a reason why you didn't do

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 2 that?
 3    A There would be things that I would tell --
 4 probably Larry and I are the closest, the ones I trust
 5 the most out of the group, between Larry and Mike.
 6    Q Larry is a closer friend than Mike Coup is?
 7    A Donaldson, yes.
 8    Q Now, after you returned the money and
 9 prior -- after you returned the money and up until you
10 began to cooperate with the FBI, and we will get into
11 that in just a second, did you ever go to Mike Coup
12 and say, Chief, by the way, you know, the sheriff
13 asked me to return some money?
14     A After Terry told me that it was okay and
15 above board, I never questioned it again.
16     Q Do you have any facts or information as you
17 sit here today that Mike Coup knew anything as of
18 January of 2009 that any employee, including yourself
19 and Larry Donaldson, had given money back to the
20 sheriff from a performance bonus?
21         MR. EDGAR: Objection to the question.
22     It's overlybroad and ambiguous.
23         MR. MURRAY: You can answer the
24     question.
25     A Not to my knowledge.
0031
 1    Q And I think you previously told me you had
 2 no conversations with him?
 3    A No.
 4    Q And there was no conversations at the
 5 breakfast group?
 6    A No.
 7    Q And I thinking, if I'm correct, the reason
 8 that there weren't any conversations was because of
 9 this integrity check culture that existed within the
10 sheriff's office?
11     A Yes. In saying that, it didn't happen every
12 day. But there were certain circumstances, sure.
13     Q Has anyone told you, as you sit here today
14 that Michael Coup knew what was going on at the time
15 that you returned money to Terry Adams?
16     A Has anybody told -- as far as --
17     Q Has any witness come forward and said, well,
18 you know, Major Schniepp, I knew what was going on or

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19 I knew that Michael Coup knew what was going on?
20     A No.
21     Q Who at the Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office
22 made the decision on who would receive bonuses?
23     A I can't answer that. That's a question for
24 Charlie Morris.
25     Q Did you ever participate in it?
0032
 1    A No.
 2    Q Do you know whether or not, of your own
 3 knowledge, whether any of the other majors had the
 4 ability to approve performance bonuses?
 5    A No.
 6    Q Is it your belief, as you sit here today,
 7 that was solely within the prerogative of Charlie
 8 Morris?
 9    A I would say so, yes.
10     Q Now, have you, since the sheriff was
11 arrested -- and when I say sheriff, I'm talking about
12 Sheriff Morris -- have you had any conversations with
13 other employees who have been given bonuses and asked
14 to return money back?
15     A Yes.
16     Q And did any of these employees tell you that
17 they had also been told not to discuss it with other
18 members of the agency?
19     A That's correct.
20     Q Did any of these employees ever tell you
21 that Michael Coup knew anything about those employees
22 returning money?
23     A No.
24     Q How many employees have you talked to that
25 received bonuses?
0033
 1    A To this day I don't know how many actually
 2 did, but I have talked to several, I'm sure.
 3    Q Have you seen the audit report that was
 4 done? There's actually two of them.
 5    A I glanced over it.
 6    Q There's a list of names in there?
 7    A Correct.
 8    Q Have you talked to the people that -- all
 9 the people or just some of the people?

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10     A Some of them.
11     Q Some of them. Were these -- the employees
12 you talked to, were they -- did they tell you that the
13 sheriff told them that it was for charitable purposes,
14 the return of the money?
15     A Yes. Returning -- charitable or a problem
16 employee.
17     Q Are you familiar with Donnie Amunds?
18     A Yes.
19     Q He's a county commissioner here in Okaloosa
20 County?
21     A Yes.
22     Q At one time he was associated with the
23 Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office?
24     A Yes.
25     Q In a full-time capacity?
0034
 1    A Yes.
 2    Q And then later on in a part-time capacity?
 3    A Yes.
 4    Q Do you know whether or not the sheriff
 5 assisted him financially with any storm damage?
 6    A I personally don't have that knowledge, no.
 7    Q Have you had any conversation with
 8 Commissioner Amunds about it?
 9    A No.
10     Q What about David Bridges; do you know who
11 that is?
12     A Let me back up. After the fact.
13     Q Let's back up. After the fact?
14     A He came in one time -- it might have been a
15 casual conversation. I don't even know to what
16 extent. But I don't converse with him normally. He
17 did bring something up, but I can't remember the
18 content of it.
19     Q Is that because the two --
20     A Well, it came out in the audit. I think he
21 was discussing what came out in the audit or
22 something.
23     Q Are you friends with Donnie Amunds?
24     A No.
25     Q Is there a history between the two of you?
0035

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 1    A No. We're just -- I don't socialize with
 2 him.
 3    Q Understand. David Bridges, do you know
 4 David Bridges?
 5    A He works in environmental.
 6    Q Do you know whether or not the sheriff ever
 7 assisted him?
 8    A I do not know.
 9    Q Don Fountain, do you know a person by that
10 name?
11     A Let me back up. I've got to back up because
12 I'm real -- what I know now and what I knew then.
13 Then, I did not know. Now I do.
14     Q What do you know now?
15     A What was reflected in the audit.
16     Q That David Bridges had received some type
17 of --
18     A Received some money. I think it was after
19 Ivan.
20     Q What about Don Fountain?
21     A I think that he got some money after his
22 father had passed away.
23     Q Do you know whether or not any of these
24 people would ask the sheriff for the money or whether
25 or not he just did it?
0036
 1    A I can't answer that. I don't know.
 2    Q You don't know?
 3    A I don't know.
 4    Q Paul Goldsmith?
 5    A No. I don't know anything about it.
 6    Q Do you know him?
 7    A Yes, I know Paul.
 8    Q Who was he associated with?
 9    A He was with civil process with the sheriff's
10 office.
11     Q Don Hess?
12     A I know Don Hess.
13     Q And was he with the sheriff's office?
14     A Yes, he was.
15     Q Do you know if the sheriff ever assisted
16 him?
17     A I do not know.

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18     Q Joe Maloney?
19     A I don't know. But he's a deputy.
20     Q Robin Stott (phonetic)?
21     A I do not know. But she was an employee.
22     Q Randy Joiner?
23     A I don't know. I could see why he would.
24     Q And when you say that, explain that.
25     A Because of their child. They've got a
0037
 1 handicapped child.
 2    Q It wouldn't surprise you if you found out
 3 that the sheriff had given him some type of bonus?
 4    A No, it wouldn't.
 5    Q Okay. Now, did you take -- when you heard
 6 that employees, to include yourself -- not to include
 7 yourself, but when you heard other employees, other
 8 than you and Major Donaldson, had received bonuses,
 9 was there any concern on your part that they were for
10 an improper purpose?
11     A No.
12     Q Did you ever discuss with any other
13 employees that you were concerned that bonuses were
14 either improper or that there were too many of them or
15 the amounts were not in proportion to the need?
16     A Not during that time, no.
17     Q At a later time?
18     A At a later time.
19     Q Was it before or after the arrest of Charlie
20 Morris?
21     A After.
22     Q Before the arrest of Charlie Morris when you
23 would have this breakfast meeting, was it ever
24 discussed among the majors, yourself and Donaldson and
25 Ashley and Coup, that part of your responsibilities as
0038
 1 command staff was to keep the sheriff out of trouble?
 2    A Sure.
 3    Q Did all of you work together to try to do
 4 that?
 5    A Constantly.
 6    Q And so would it be fair to say that in
 7 addition to operational requirements and needs at
 8 these breakfast meetings, there was also dealing with

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 9 issues that had potential political implications?
10     A That's what I mean.
11     Q Is that what you are making reference?
12     A Yes, the command staff is the political
13 ring.
14     Q Did you view it as part of your
15 responsibilities that you should work with the other
16 majors and the chief in an effort to try to keep
17 Charlie Morris from doing something that would have an
18 adverse political consequence?
19     A That's correct.
20     Q Now, I'm skipping to another topic, but I'm
21 still pre arrest. Do you know a person by the name of
22 Sabra Thornton?
23     A Yes.
24     Q Did Sabra Thornton at some point in time
25 come to work for the sheriff's office?
0039
 1    A Yes.
 2    Q How did you -- did you know her before she
 3 came to work at the sheriff's office?
 4    A Not personally.
 5    Q Did you know of her?
 6    A Yes.
 7    Q Did you know anything about her
 8 qualifications?
 9    A No.
10     Q When she came to work at the sheriff's
11 office, and I'm talking about at the beginning, what
12 was your understanding about what she was going to be
13 doing?
14     A The sheriff, the way he explained it to me
15 and to us, was that since he was going to become the
16 president of the sheriff's association, that that was
17 going to take up most of his time, that he needed Mike
18 Coup to be his representative in the county because he
19 was going to be on the road a lot, and that he was
20 bringing Sabra on to be that homeland security
21 coordinator. And I don't understand what all Mike
22 did, but I know that Mike was on -- I think the
23 sheriff was on the executive committee. Mike had --
24 Mike Coup had direct influence on spending or funding
25 or how the money was spent, and that Sabra was being

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0040
 1 brought on board to take over those duties so Mike
 2 would be more home based and could act in the absence
 3 of Charlie Morris.
 4     Q Was this discussed at one of these breakfast
 5 staff meetings?
 6     A I'm sure it was. I mean, I'm sure.
 7     Q On more than one occasion?
 8     A I mean, Charlie Morris told us what he was
 9 going to do.
10      Q And I take from your answer that a lot of
11 times he would just simply tell you what he was going
12 to do and would not necessarily ask for your input?
13      A Exactly.
14      Q From the majors or from the chief?
15      A From -- it could be from any of us.
16      Q Now, did he express concerns that Mike Coup
17 was spending -- having to spend too much time on the
18 road with the homeland security work as opposed to
19 being back in the sheriff's office performing as a
20 chief deputy?
21      A Yes.
22      Q And did he give to you as one of the reasons
23 he was bringing Sabra Thornton on was so that Mike
24 Coup could spend more time being a chief deputy as
25 opposed to a homeland security coordinator?
0041
 1     A Correct.
 2     Q Now, did you have concerns about Sabra
 3 Thornton coming to work, initially when she was hired?
 4     A I really didn't know her. The concerns
 5 was -- was bringing an outside person in at the rank
 6 of major, that it would disrupt the agency a little
 7 bit, yes, sure.
 8     Q And did you have concerns that it would
 9 cause some problems with the close-knit working
10 relationship that the majors presently had and
11 exercised at these daily staff meetings?
12      A Kind of -- what are you getting at?
13      Q Were you concerned that by bringing an
14 outsider in that it would interfere with the ability
15 of the majors to continue closely working with one
16 another as you had in the past?

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17     A No. Because I really didn't know her. My
18 feelings was, welcome to our world.
19     Q What do you mean by that?
20     A Is that when you work for Charlie Morris,
21 you work for him 24/7, literally.
22     Q Now, did there come a point in time where
23 you had concerns about Sabra Thornton after she was
24 hired?
25     A I didn't have concerns with her. There came
0042
 1 a point in time where Charlie Morris -- she was
 2 expected to be at the breakfast club because she was
 3 part of the command staff and she wasn't showing up.
 4    Q And what did Charlie Morris say, if
 5 anything, at that breakfast club or staff meeting?
 6    A He made comments -- asked Mike Coup where
 7 she was at, and he would say that she worked late or,
 8 you know, made up an excuse. He seemed displeased
 9 about it.
10     Q At some point in time did he take action on
11 his displeasure?
12     A He terminated her.
13     Q Do you know the mechanics or mechanism by
14 which he went about doing that?
15     A The only thing I know is that he sent Mike
16 Coup to talk to her. Their conversation or anything
17 like that, I don't know.
18     Q Do you know that -- do you know whether or
19 not he sent Mike Coup to tell her that she was
20 terminated?
21     A I believe he did. I mean, that's who did
22 it. I mean, so...
23     Q But the conversation, if it occurred, didn't
24 occur in your presence?
25     A No.
0043
 1    Q At some point in time you became aware of
 2 the fact that she was terminated?
 3    A Yes.
 4    Q Was that discussed among the majors and Mike
 5 Coup at one of the staff meetings?
 6    A I don't know if -- not one. What Charlie
 7 told us to do and what Mike told us to do is lay out a

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 8 cover story, is that she was having problems with her
 9 daughter in Tallahassee and the long distance commute
10 and working relationship was too difficult, and she
11 was returning to Tallahassee.
12     Q Who told you that? Was it the sheriff?
13     A I think that was Mike.
14     Q Coup told you that is what the sheriff said?
15     A That's what he wanted put out. So that --
16 obviously when she left, there would be questions, and
17 to -- instead of it being that the sheriff was
18 dissatisfied with her, that she is having family
19 issues and, therefore, moving back to Tallahassee.
20     Q Now, did there come a point in time when you
21 became aware that she was back working at the agency
22 or had been rehired or something along that line?
23     A Yes.
24     Q How long was it after she was terminated
25 that you became aware of the fact that she was either
0044
 1 going to be hired back or was hired back?
 2     A I don't know exactly when the time was.
 3 Because to be honest with you, I don't remember -- it
 4 might have been in October that she was terminated, if
 5 I remember correctly. After Christmas break, we had
 6 met at the breakfast club. We switched weeks off. I
 7 think me and Larry Donaldson was off first this time.
 8 So Mike Coup and Larry Ashley would have been off when
 9 we returned. Charlie Morris informed me that morning
10 that he was hiring Sabra back, that Mike Coup didn't
11 do what he wanted him to do and felt like it -- he
12 mistreated her.
13     Q Felt that Mike had mistreated her?
14     A The sheriff. First of all, he was upset
15 with Mike because he felt that he didn't communicate
16 with her the way that he wanted it done, and that he
17 basically felt sorry for her and he was bringing her
18 back to work.
19     Q Now, did he ask you for input about that
20 decision that he made?
21     A No.
22     Q Did you express to him any concerns about
23 her coming back?
24     A I expressed a little bit of surprise. The

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25 way that he said it was that she wouldn't be returning
0045
 1 to the agency until -- I think it was July or -- June
 2 or July, and that she would be remaining in
 3 Tallahassee.
 4     Q Okay. Was Mike Coup present at that staff
 5 meeting or was it his week off?
 6     A No. Mike would have been off that week.
 7     Q So it was you and Larry Donaldson that were
 8 having breakfast with the sheriff on that morning?
 9     A Correct.
10      Q Now, was there subsequent meetings at the --
11 morning staff meeting about Sabra Thornton and her
12 duties at which Mike Coup was present?
13      A I'm sure. I can't tell you what -- I mean,
14 homeland security issues to some training issues.
15      Q Okay. Now, have you ever gone over to
16 Tallahassee and worked the legislature over there with
17 the FSA lobbyists?
18      A No.
19      Q Do you know if the sheriff has ever sent
20 anybody over there to do that?
21      A Charlie Morris?
22      Q Charlie Morris.
23      A Not that I know of.
24      Q Did you ever participate in any legislative
25 functions?
0046
 1     A No.
 2     Q What about Florida Sheriff's Association
 3 functions?
 4     A Conferences, yes.
 5     Q You would participate and assist with that?
 6     A Yes.
 7     Q Do I understand you correctly that you're
 8 telling me you don't know whether or not employees
 9 from the sheriff's office went over to work the
10 legislature, or are you saying, no, it never happened?
11      A It has never happened that I know of.
12      Q That you know of?
13      A That I know of, correct.
14      Q Now, did there come a point in time in which
15 you were concerned about Sabra Thornton and a

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16 potential relationship that she may have with Charlie
17 Morris?
18     A Later on, yes.
19     Q Was that before the arrest of Charlie Morris
20 or after the arrest?
21     A Before.
22     Q When did that occur?
23     A It had to be in the first few weeks of
24 January. Well, let me back up. Mid January probably.
25 Latter part of January. Charlie Morris changed. I
0047
 1 say changed -- he was acting differently. He had a
 2 second Blackberry. Larry Ashley had suspicions about
 3 the relationship and stuff. I never seen anything --
 4 he had done some things when he -- I didn't see them.
 5 I know that he got in her car. The second Blackberry,
 6 I guess is what, in my mind, told me something -- I
 7 mean, why would you do that?
 8    Q When did Larry Ashley express to you some
 9 concerns about an inappropriate relationship or some
10 closeness between the sheriff and Sabra Thornton? And
11 I'm trying to pin that down in January, if that's when
12 it occurred, or whenever it occurred.
13     A It had to be in mid -- I would assume it
14 probably when he came back from his break, when he
15 found out that Sabra was coming back, that he probably
16 started thinking something. I don't know.
17     Q He being Larry Ashley?
18     A Yes. You would have to ask him. I can't
19 give you an exact date. I don't know.
20     Q But what I'm asking you is, what did he say
21 to you that appeared to give some basis for concern?
22     A He thought there was something that didn't
23 seem right. I didn't believe it at first, quite
24 frankly.
25     Q And why is it you didn't believe it?
0048
 1    A I just -- I didn't see Charlie that way.
 2    Q Was Charlie's reputation within the agency
 3 and your observation of him one that he would never be
 4 involved with a female employee or some variation of
 5 that?
 6    A I wouldn't have thought, no.

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 7    Q Have you ever seen him act inappropriately
 8 with a female employee?
 9    A No.
10     Q Have you been present in social situations
11 where he probably had the opportunity, if he chose to
12 exercise it, either at conferences or seminars?
13     A I have been with him. I have never seen
14 him, no.
15     Q Any inappropriate comments about a woman and
16 her physical characteristics and how good or bad she
17 looked, things like that, guy talk for lack of a
18 better word?
19     A Obviously guy talk, yes.
20     Q Did you ever see him engage in that kind of
21 conversation with you after making those kinds of
22 observations?
23     A Sure.
24     Q Did you ever have any concern that he might
25 actually begin to pursue something like that?
0049
 1    A Not at that time.
 2    Q Now, you began to be involved in an FBI
 3 investigation at what point in time?
 4    A Would have been on that Monday, whatever
 5 date it was. Let me back up. The way that this
 6 transpired, and it was either a Thursday or a Friday,
 7 and to be honest with you, I can't remember. It was
 8 during the afternoon. Obviously, Larry Ashley was
 9 upset. I could tell. We had just been around
10 together too long. I went in his office. We shut the
11 door. I asked him what was bothering him. And he
12 said -- he looked at me, suspiciously I might add. He
13 said, I don't know if I can trust you. I said, what
14 in the world are you talking about. What has
15 happened. He said that he had had a conversation with
16 George Wilson and that he -- George explained -- not
17 in great detail, but of George Wilson getting
18 performance pay and giving money back to Charlie
19 Morris.
20     Q Let me interrupt you for just a minute.
21 Let's see if we can pin that down to some time in
22 January. Was it before or during or after --
23     A I'm going to look at my calendar. Let me

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24 see. Well, I need to go back to January of '08.
25     Q Or '09?
0050
 1    A '09, I'm sorry. I don't know. It was a
 2 Thursday or Friday. I'm thinking it was a Friday.
 3    Q Was this after the FSA conference was over?
 4    A Yes. No, no, no. It was before the FSA
 5 conference. It was the first week early, maybe,
 6 January 8.
 7    Q Okay.
 8    A Does that sound right? I don't know. I
 9 mean, without a calendar I can't be exact. But it was
10 that first week or so in January. It was either a
11 Thursday or Friday.
12     Q I will get to that, but I will pass it here
13 in just a minute.
14         MR. EDGAR: Are we going to lunch? It's
15     12:30. We're overdue half an hour.
16         MR. MURRAY: If you need to break for
17     lunch, we can break for lunch.
18         MR. EDGAR: I'm hungry. I didn't bring
19     a lunch.
20         MR. MURRAY: Off the record.
21               (Off the record.)
22               (Lunch recess from 12:30 p.m. to
23               1:20 p.m.)
24 BY MR. MURRAY:
25     Q Do you consider yourself to still be under
0051
 1 oath?
 2    A Yes.
 3    Q Now, have you yourself traveled to Las
 4 Vegas?
 5    A Yes.
 6    Q And what was the purpose of -- how many
 7 times have you been to Las Vegas on behalf of the
 8 Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office?
 9    A Three.
10     Q And do you recall when you first went to Las
11 Vegas?
12     A You would have to pull a training -- my
13 training doc. The first time was for a national
14 methamphetamine conference. The second time it was

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15 National Institute In-Custody Death. The third time,
16 again, was Second Annual National Institute In-Custody
17 Death.
18     Q And can you give me some ballpark years that
19 you went?
20     A '08. I think the first time was -- might
21 have been '05. Might have been '07, '08, the last
22 one.
23     Q Okay. Now, the information that Mr. Edgar
24 has given to us in discovery reflects that you were
25 out in Las Vegas on or about November 21st of '07.
0052
 1     A That would be correct. Yes, it was right
 2 before Thanksgiving.
 3     Q And did you travel out there with anybody on
 4 that trip?
 5     A November of '07?
 6     Q Yes, sir.
 7     A Larry Donaldson.
 8     Q That was the in-custody death seminar or the
 9 methamphetamine seminar?
10     A In-custody death.
11     Q Did this follow any type of tragedy that
12 occurred within the Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office?
13     A That occasion, no.
14     Q On that one, no?
15     A Let me take that back. We had the Nelson
16 death in Destin at the Destin Commons. That was a
17 taser was deployed, subject subsequently died probably
18 excited delirium.
19     Q Did the department pay your expenses and
20 travel and whatnot on each of those trips?
21     A Yes.
22     Q On any of those trips, were you given
23 additional money for entertainment?
24     A He gave us $3,000 performance pay.
25     Q And what date -- on all of them or just one
0053
 1 of them?
 2     A On two of them.
 3     Q On two of them. And by he, you're talking
 4 about?
 5     A The sheriff.

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 6     Q Morris?
 7     A Sheriff Morris.
 8     Q And just for our purposes, unless I indicate
 9 Sheriff Spooner, if I say sheriff, I'm talking about
10 Charlie Morris. Do you feel comfortable with that?
11     A Yes.
12     Q Now, you went out there with Larry Donaldson
13 on two trips; am I correct?
14     A No, one.
15     Q One trip. Now, did you go out with anybody
16 else on the other two trips?
17     A Arnold Brown was the first trip. That was
18 the national methamphetamine conference. Larry
19 Donaldson was the second trip. Tony Wasden was the
20 third trip.
21     Q And was the trip with Tony Wasden in October
22 of 2008?
23     A Yes.
24     Q Did that follow a tragedy at the sheriff's
25 office?
0054
 1     A Yes.
 2     Q Where there was a line of duty death of one
 3 of the officers?
 4     A Yes.
 5     Q Now, do you know of whether or not -- of
 6 your own knowledge, whether or not Tony Wasden was
 7 given any money for entertainment?
 8     A I believe he was.
 9     Q Do you know how much?
10     A I do not know.
11     Q And do you recall which one of the other two
12 trips that you were given money for entertainment?
13     A 2007.
14     Q Now, what was the mechanism by which you
15 received $3,000 that you told me about? Was this
16 another thing where it was one-on-one with the sheriff
17 or how did that come about?
18     A It was one-on-one with the sheriff.
19     Q And did the sheriff give you any
20 instructions about whether or not you were at liberty
21 to discuss this with anybody?
22     A He never really said. He said, I'm going to

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23 give you performance pay. He said, I want you to have
24 a good time.
25     Q And that was on two occasions?
0055
 1     A Yes.
 2     Q Now, did you ever report -- strike that.
 3           Do you know whether or not Michael Coup
 4 knew about you getting $3,000 for entertainment?
 5     A I do not know.
 6     Q One way or the other?
 7     A Yes, one way or the other.
 8     Q Did you ever have any conversations with
 9 him?
10     A No.
11     Q Has anybody ever told you or have you talked
12 to anybody who told you that Michael Coup did, in
13 fact, know about those $3,000 entertainment bonuses?
14     A Not that I can remember.
15     Q And was this ever discussed at the breakfast
16 staff meetings? When I say, was this, I'm talking
17 about the additional money for you to have a good
18 time.
19     A Not that I can remember.
20     Q Did you and Tony Wasden have any discussions
21 about it?
22     A Not really.
23     Q Did you go to Terry Adams and do a check
24 with her about whether or not this was okay for him to
25 do that?
0056
 1     A No.
 2     Q Did you have any concerns about whether or
 3 not there may be some improprieties associated with
 4 that?
 5     A No. Because the way I took it, Charlie
 6 Morris would give you something. You did not accept
 7 (sic) anything that Charlie Morris didn't give you.
 8     Q You didn't have a choice?
 9     A You didn't have a choice. What he perceived
10 that money might have been for and what I did with it
11 were two different things.
12     Q Do you know -- when you say that, just for
13 the purpose of the record, and you correct me if I'm

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14 wrong, you said it with a pretty deep level of
15 sincerity that you didn't refuse a bonus from Charlie
16 Morris.
17     A No.
18     Q Okay. Do you know of anybody that ever did
19 and suffered adverse consequences?
20     A No. Because I didn't know who all he was
21 doing it with.
22     Q Fair comment. Do you know a person by the
23 name of Chris Lahr?
24     A Yes.
25     Q How long have you known Chris Lahr?
0057
 1    A Went to rookie school with him. 1985.
 2    Q So quite awhile?
 3    A Yes, sir.
 4    Q And Chris -- was Chris Lahr employed by the
 5 Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office?
 6    A Yes.
 7    Q And did there come a point in time in which
 8 Chris Lahr was terminated?
 9    A Yes.
10     Q Now, what was your relationship with Chris
11 Lahr up until the time he was terminated from the
12 Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office? What I'm getting
13 at, was he a friend, a close friend, good friend, dear
14 friend?
15     A He was a close friend.
16     Q Larry Ashley has described in deposition
17 that Chris Lahr was his best friend.
18     A Okay.
19     Q Do you take issue with that at all?
20     A No.
21     Q Was Chris Lahr your best friend?
22     A No.
23     Q Now, after he was terminated, what was the
24 nature of your relationship with Chris Lahr?
25     A I -- Larry Ashley called me the night that
0058
 1 he brought Chris in. I'm the one that relieved him of
 2 duty pending termination. I was pretty angry with
 3 Chris for a long time.
 4    Q Was this over a DUI related incident?

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 5    A Yes.
 6    Q Was that the last time you saw him?
 7    A No.
 8    Q I didn't mean to interrupt you. Go ahead.
 9    A No. I was angry with him a long time. Then
10 we reconnected.
11     Q I'm with you. Now, since you've reconnected
12 with him, what's the status of your relationship with
13 him?
14     A Friends.
15     Q Do you see him on a regular basis?
16     A No.
17     Q Does his family -- or strike that.
18           Do you and he socialize together?
19     A No, not really.
20     Q Did Chris Lahr provide you with any
21 information concerning the sheriff during 2008 and
22 2009?
23     A No.
24     Q Do you know if he supplied any information
25 to Larry Ashley?
0059
 1    A I don't know if he did or not, to be honest
 2 with you.
 3    Q One way or the other?
 4    A I don't know one way or the other.
 5    Q Larry Ashley didn't come to you and say that
 6 Chris Lahr was doing certain things for him in terms
 7 of Ashley making a determination on whether or not
 8 Morris was involved in misconduct?
 9    A After the fact I think Chris did do some
10 stuff for Larry, but I don't know in what context.
11     Q After what fact?
12     A After the arrest of Charlie Morris.
13     Q It's your belief that Chris Lahr did do some
14 work?
15     A I think he did, yes.
16     Q Do you know if it was in relationship to the
17 criminal investigation or to Ashley's candidacy for
18 sheriff or what?
19     A I don't think -- I don't think it was either
20 one. From what I -- I can't speak because I don't
21 have direct knowledge. What I believe is that Chris

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22 was looking at Randall. Now, I don't know why I'm
23 saying that, but that's the memory that I have.
24     Q Is it your belief that somebody in the
25 sheriff's office shared that with you or you overheard
0060
 1 something?
 2    A I overheard something. It could have very
 3 well been from Larry. I don't know.
 4    Q You think this occurred after the arrest of
 5 the sheriff?
 6    A That's when I became aware of it.
 7    Q Thank you for clarifying that.
 8            Now, after Chris Lahr left the
 9 sheriff's office, did he come back to work for the
10 sheriff's office for a week or so?
11     A For three pay cycles.
12     Q Three pay cycles?
13     A Well -- yes. Two or three.
14     Q And if you would for the record describe
15 what a pay cycle is.
16     A Civilian-wise it would be every two weeks.
17     Q What -- do you know why he came back to work
18 for the sheriff's office after being terminated?
19     A Yes. It was -- he had approached Terry
20 Adams and spoke with me about it and Terry had spoke
21 to the sheriff. He had 15 years in the retirement
22 system. He was wanting to convert FRS into the --
23 what do you convert it into? I forget when you take
24 it out and -- the second choice program.
25     Q Now, did you recommend that the sheriff do
0061
 1 that, or did you have a view or position on that?
 2    A I told him it was up to them. It did not
 3 bother me, no.
 4    Q Do you know what he did during those pay
 5 cycles?
 6    A He worked under the umbrella of criminal
 7 investigations, and I signed his time sheet.
 8    Q Who was his direct supervisor?
 9    A I was.
10     Q What did he do?
11     A He went out and gathered local intelligence
12 for us. He had nothing to do with Charlie Morris or

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13 Mike Coup or anything to do with the agency.
14     Q So when you say gathering local
15 intelligence, did it apply to a pending criminal
16 investigation?
17     A No.
18     Q Did he write any reports?
19     A No.
20     Q How would his work product then be
21 documented for pay purposes?
22     A It wouldn't.
23     Q Did you ever have any discussions with Mike
24 Coup about Chris Lahr coming back for three pay
25 cycles?
0062
 1     A You know, I may have. I don't know for
 2 sure, to be honest with you.
 3     Q Don't have a recollection right now one way
 4 or the other?
 5     A No, I don't.
 6     Q Do you know if Mike Coup was opposed to
 7 Chris Lahr coming back for three pay cycles?
 8     A If he was, he never voiced it to me.
 9     Q Did Michael Coup ever make a statement to
10 you that he knew what the sheriff -- and by that,
11 Morris -- was doing with the bonus money that he was
12 receiving back from any employees?
13     A You know, I would have to review the tape --
14 the conversation that we had.
15     Q Okay. Well, let's pin that down. Other
16 than that type -- we'll get to the tape. Other than
17 the tape where you recorded a conversation with Mike
18 Coup, was there any other conversations?
19     A Not that I remember.
20     Q That's a pretty important question, Mark.
21     A I understand.
22     Q Right now you're saying you don't recall
23 any?
24     A I don't recall any, no. I don't remember
25 any.
0063
 1     Q And were you just -- did you have a wire on
 2 or was it just a recorder?
 3     A The day of that?

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 4    Q Yes, sir.
 5    A It was a digital recorder, undercover
 6 recorder.
 7    Q And you had a conversation with Mike Coup on
 8 how many occasions using that digital recorder?
 9    A Intentionally, one occasion. Residual,
10 another, the next day.
11     Q The residual one, did it have anything at
12 all to do with any of the allegations that have been
13 lodged against Mike Coup?
14     A No. I walked -- I walked into Charlie
15 Morris' office to engage him in an undercover
16 conversation, walked out. Mike Coup came up to me,
17 spoke to me a few minutes and that's where the
18 residual conversation was.
19     Q Prior to your conversation with Larry Ashley
20 about, he told you, I don't know if I can trust you,
21 prior to that -- and I think you've looked at a
22 calendar. Have you been able to pin a date down for
23 us?
24     A It had to be January 8th or 9th. It was
25 either that Thursday or Friday. I believe it was that
0064
 1 Monday that I accompanied -- I went up and talked to
 2 Parker and Van Pelt with the FBI.
 3    Q By Monday, what are you talking about?
 4    A January 12th.
 5    Q We're talking about the year 2009?
 6    A That's correct.
 7    Q Prior to the conversation with Ashley where
 8 he asked you whether or not he could trust you, did --
 9 what was your relationship with Mike Coup? I mean,
10 was he a close friend?
11     A No.
12     Q Did you trust him? And I understand we are
13 going to divide this into two categories,
14 professionally and personally. Let's start with
15 professionally.
16     A Somewhat.
17     Q And when you say somewhat, what concerns, if
18 any, did you have?
19     A I guess professional disagreements on --
20 just like we normally would have on the direction of

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21 some things.
22     Q Operational issues?
23     A Yes.
24     Q Now, personally, did you have any concerns
25 about --
0065
 1    A I had a friendship with Mike, but not a
 2 trusting friendship, not on a personal level.
 3    Q Not like you do with Larry Donaldson?
 4    A I don't go to dinner with Coup. I never
 5 socialized with him, really.
 6    Q Other than what's on that tape, just so I'm
 7 clear, you don't recall any other conversations about
 8 bonus money, the sheriff receiving money back from
 9 bonuses with Michael Coup?
10     A No.
11     Q Who handled the budget planning during
12 Sheriff Morris' administrations?
13     A In the beginning -- well, when we got
14 promoted to -- and I say this because all three of us,
15 Larry -- Larry and myself were promoted to directors
16 or majors, is when he switched our jobs, we were
17 involved in the budget process. I want to say that
18 was '09, '08 -- maybe '07. And it was small -- it was
19 the beginning of what was supposed to be -- met
20 several times, February, March; myself, Coup, Mike
21 Hull, Larry Ashley, Larry Donaldson, Terry Adams, the
22 sheriff was not there to discuss issues. But that
23 being said, the sheriff and Terry did the budget and
24 then presented it the way that they wanted.
25     Q And what you just told me about, about those
0066
 1 meetings, was when you were a captain and before. Is
 2 that -- am I correct?
 3    A I think it was when we became majors, I
 4 believe. Before that, no.
 5    Q Then later in 2008, 2009 -- there wasn't
 6 much of 2009. But in 2008, did you participate in the
 7 2008 or 2007?
 8    A Preparation of budget?
 9    Q Yes, sir.
10     A Not that I can recall.
11     Q Would it be an accurate statement to say

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12 that was strictly between the sheriff and Terry Adams?
13     A You would have to ask the others. I had no
14 knowledge -- I mean, I didn't participate in it.
15     Q You didn't participate?
16     A No.
17     Q Who was responsible for setting salaries at
18 the sheriff's office?
19     A The sheriff.
20     Q Anybody else?
21     A No.
22     Q Who was responsible for setting command
23 staff salaries?
24     A The sheriff.
25     Q Now, did you ever go to Mike Coup -- that's
0067
 1 probably a poor question.
 2           Did you discuss concerns about the
 3 sheriff in 2008 at the breakfast staff meetings at
 4 which Mike Coup was present, concerns that you had
 5 about the sheriff and what he may or may not be doing?
 6    A That's a pretty broad question.
 7    Q Yeah.
 8    A Regarding?
 9    Q Let's start with operational issues.
10     A You know, I'm sure we did.
11     Q Does anything stand out in your mind?
12     A Operational and personnel-wise, one of the
13 things that upset me, quite frankly, was him going to
14 terminate Mark Young's position and Judy Sorb's.
15     Q And did Mike Coup think -- or express to you
16 that he thought terminating one or both of those
17 positions would be unfair to the employees involved?
18     A Did Mike Coup, no.
19     Q Did any of the other majors?
20     A Larry Ashley.
21     Q And what eventually happened?
22     A Mark Young was made a sergeant, transferred
23 to court security. He was demoted from the rank of
24 lieutenant. I absorbed Judy Sorb in investigations.
25     Q Obviously, that was with the agreement of
0068
 1 Sheriff Morris?
 2    A Yes.

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 3    Q Now, was there any concerns that were
 4 discussed in 2008 or 2009 among the command staff
 5 people about employees working at the sheriff's house?
 6    A Yes.
 7    Q And how many times did that occur? Let's
 8 start with the first instance that -- as best you can
 9 remember.
10     A I can't remember. I know that George and
11 Angel DeJesus have done some work there. I know that
12 they have done a lot of projects. I wish them well
13 because I knew how painstakingly it would be.
14     Q Do you know -- was this a topic of
15 conversation at the morning staff meetings?
16     A I mean, it very well could have been. I
17 remember them working at Mike Coup's house. It was
18 talked about.
19     Q Was there any concerns on your part about
20 George Wilson or Angel DeJesus doing work and that
21 somehow that was improper?
22     A I'm sure it was improper. But it was one of
23 those things that the sheriff's do that -- you choose
24 your battles.
25     Q Now, you --
0069
 1    A You know, I don't think what kind of
 2 arrangements Charlie Morris at that time had made with
 3 Angel or George -- I don't know if they were taking
 4 annual leave or -- at that time. I don't know what
 5 kind of financial arrangement they had made or
 6 gentleman's agreement or what. You know as I know
 7 that Charlie Morris was a high maintenance individual
 8 and that his wife, Barbara, was very high maintenance
 9 also. And when he was not happy at home, then he had
10 to get things done, and he would use whoever.
11     Q Did you choose -- consciously make a
12 decision not to challenge the sheriff on the use of
13 Wilson or Angel DeJesus for personal --
14     A I didn't challenge him, no.
15     Q Did you have any concerns that George Wilson
16 or Angel DeJesus was doing work at Mr. Coup's house on
17 company time, that is, say Okaloosa County Sheriff's
18 Office?
19     A I don't know if they did or not. I know

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20 they did some work there.
21     Q Were you concerned that it was improper in
22 some way?
23     A No.
24     Q Do employees of the Okaloosa County
25 Sheriff's Office do off-duty work?
0070
 1    A Yes.
 2    Q In fact, the majority of the deputy sheriffs
 3 do a lot of off-duty security work; do they not?
 4    A Yes.
 5    Q Is that a yes?
 6    A Yes.
 7    Q And George Wilson and Angel DeJesus are not
 8 sworn. They are non sworn?
 9    A That's correct.
10     Q And so would it strike you as unusual that
11 they would be doing work outside their business or
12 outside their duty time in order to supplement their
13 income?
14     A No, not at all.
15     Q When did you first find out or if you ever
16 did find out that annual leave had been restored to
17 either George Wilson or Angel DeJesus?
18     A That was after the audit -- or after the
19 arrest.
20     Q And do you have any information that Michael
21 Coup knew anything at all about annual leave being
22 restored?
23     A I didn't have any personal information, no.
24     Q Did anybody come up to you and say, well,
25 Michael Coup did know because I overheard this
0071
 1 conversation or I had a conversation with him?
 2    A No.
 3    Q Did -- was there any concern expressed at
 4 any of the staff meetings in 2008 about the improper
 5 use of inmates?
 6    A Probably not with Charlie Morris. Between
 7 us, yes.
 8    Q When you say probably between us, are you
 9 talking about, that would occur when the sheriff
10 wasn't present and it was just the majors and the

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11 chief?
12     A Yes.
13     Q And are you supposing that it may have
14 occurred or do you actually have a recollection?
15     A I know that conversations took place. I
16 can't remember the context of them or how many times
17 or when they were.
18     Q Did you ever see -- strike that.
19            Who was responsible for utilizing
20 inmates from the Okaloosa County detention center for
21 work around the sheriff's office?
22     A At that particular time either George or
23 Angel checks them out of the county jail. They are
24 supposed to be supervised by them. Well, I take that
25 back. I have not taken it back far enough. Since
0072
 1 George's employ, I believe, if I remember correctly,
 2 he would check them out and then Angel came along. He
 3 started checking them out and working them. And
 4 then -- that was before Randall left, and Randall
 5 would take the inmates and go to PAWS -- go get
 6 property and take it down to PAWS.
 7    Q Did -- now, is there any state statutes
 8 regulating how inmates can be used?
 9    A I have no idea, Jim.
10     Q You don't know one way or the other?
11     A No.
12     Q Are there any Okaloosa County Sheriff's
13 Office policies that dictate how inmates are to be
14 used when they are checked out from the detention
15 center?
16     A I don't know.
17     Q And the reason I'm asking you is that at
18 some point in time when you were a major, you were in
19 charge of the services section --
20     A That's correct.
21     Q -- and this would all come up under you. Is
22 that correct?
23     A That's correct.
24     Q Now, is there anything that statutorily
25 prevents inmates from being fed lunch, for example,
0073
 1 while they are working at the sheriff's office?

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 2    A No. Not that I know of.
 3    Q Is there any policy with the Okaloosa County
 4 Sheriff's Office?
 5    A If there is, I'm not aware of it right now.
 6    Q Would it be a fair statement to say that
 7 routinely that the people in services, along with the
 8 inmates, would actually barbecue around lunchtime out
 9 back behind the admin building for the purpose of
10 feeding the inmates and other employees?
11     A That wasn't done on a routine basis with
12 other employees. I know that they would go to the
13 grocery store, buy a week's worth of groceries.
14     Q When you say they, who are you talking
15 about?
16     A I'm assuming it was Angel or George. And
17 they would cook -- the inmates would cook it
18 themselves and feed themselves.
19     Q Did you have an occasion to have lunch with
20 them out there?
21     A No, I didn't eat with them, not that I know
22 of.
23     Q Do you know if other deputy sheriffs did?
24     A They very well could have.
25     Q Did you see other deputies out there eating
0074
 1 with them?
 2    A With the inmates, specifically?
 3    Q Or the product of the barbecuing activity
 4 that was going on.
 5    A They used inmates for a function and had
 6 them do the cooking and then probably for a reward of
 7 their works, they got to eat. But to go out and have
 8 lunch with inmates, no.
 9    Q And when you were in charge of that section,
10 was there any -- did any of that activity cause you
11 any concerns, either in a statutory basis or a policy
12 basis?
13        MR. EDGAR: Object to the form of the
14     question. It's overly broad.
15     Q You can answer the question.
16     A As long as they were fixing food for
17 themselves, it's cheaper than buying pizzas or
18 whatever and bringing them in. If it was me, I mean,

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19 that was something that the sheriff allowed, they
20 would eat their sack lunch they got from the jail.
21     Q But they, at least while you were in charge
22 of that division, they didn't always eat those sack
23 lunches, did they?
24     A No.
25     Q Do you know what -- who's responsible for
0075
 1 obtaining vehicles for the sheriff's office?
 2    A As far as --
 3    Q I'm talking about vehicles that would be
 4 used by command staff, by road deputies. Who's
 5 purview did that fall under?
 6    A That would be support services.
 7    Q And when -- my next question to you is:
 8 What role did Charlie Morris play in that process?
 9    A To be honest with you, I can't answer that
10 because, I mean, what I do know is that George would
11 talk to Charlie -- I mean, if they had a problem -- he
12 bought our vehicles.
13     Q Who was he?
14     A Charlie Morris. He would select command
15 staff vehicles. He would change them out. As far as
16 patrol goes, I mean, I'm assuming they went through
17 state contract and went through the normal route. But
18 he would be aware if there was a problem or something.
19     Q Do you know where your vehicles, command
20 staff vehicles were obtained from, what dealer?
21     A The Lee on 98.
22     Q And do you know if that dealership has any
23 relation by blood or marriage to Larry Ashley?
24     A By marriage, I guess he would be the uncle
25 of his wife.
0076
 1    Q What type of vehicle do you currently drive?
 2    A A GMC pickup truck.
 3    Q And do you know when that vehicle was
 4 obtained? How long have you had it?
 5    A February of 2009.
 6    Q This is after the sheriff's arrest?
 7    A Yes.
 8    Q Do you know where that vehicle came from?
 9    A At Lee.

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10     Q And did the other command staff members
11 receive vehicles in February of 2009?
12     A February or March.
13     Q What type of vehicle?
14     A I take that back. No. Theirs were there
15 before then. They were actually -- before that,
16 Charlie Morris got Larry Donaldson's truck and Larry
17 Ashley's truck.
18     Q Before his arrest?
19     A Yes.
20     Q And those were obtained from Lee also?
21     A Yes.
22     Q How many vehicles have been purchased from
23 Lee since Sheriff Spooner became the sheriff of
24 Okaloosa County, if you know?
25     A My vehicle actually wasn't purchased, traded
0077
 1 back in Charlie Morris' Arcadia, and it was an even
 2 trade.
 3    Q How many vehicles have been obtained?
 4    A I think two. I think.
 5    Q Your's and who else's?
 6    A Spooner's.
 7    Q When you were in charge of support
 8 services -- you're not currently in charge of support
 9 services, are you?
10     A No. Criminal investigations.
11     Q When was the last time you were in charge of
12 support services? I'm looking for a year.
13     A I know. 2005, I think. Support services,
14 then field services, and went back as criminal
15 investigations in September of '08.
16     Q Okay. Do you know a person by the name of
17 Louie Mullins?
18     A Yes.
19     Q And how long have you known Louie Mullins?
20     A Known of him for a period of years. I mean,
21 just by virtue of being in police work.
22     Q Would you view him as being a friend?
23     A Yes. Non-socializing, but friend. Yes.
24     Q Okay. Do you know how surplus or excess
25 vehicles were disposed of from 2005 to 2000 --
0078

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 1 beginning of 2009?
 2     A I don't know the inner workings of it. I
 3 know that he would pick some up.
 4     Q He being?
 5     A Louie or a representative of his business.
 6 And I don't know what kind of arrangements were made
 7 as far as if they were junk or wrecked or whatever.
 8 He may have given us credit for body work or
 9 something.
10     Q Was that body work to be done on patrol cars
11 that were damaged during the course of Okaloosa County
12 Sheriff's Office activities?
13     A As far as I know, yes.
14     Q Did you have any concern about that
15 arrangement?
16     A No.
17     Q Now, when you were contacted by Larry Ashley
18 in January of 2009 and he -- Mr. Ashley -- Major
19 Ashley asked you, I don't know if I can trust you, you
20 told us about that, did he then solicit you to
21 participate in an FBI investigation?
22     A Not at that time, no.
23     Q Tell me what the process was between you and
24 Larry Ashley from the time of the comment, I don't
25 know if I can trust you, if you would, lay out for me
0079
 1 what occurred over the next few days.
 2     A When he told me -- it was either that
 3 Thursday or Friday. I really can't remember which
 4 one. We were in shock. I mean, literally. I mean,
 5 because I just learned that Charlie Morris and Terry
 6 Adams had exposed me in something that was obviously
 7 wrong.
 8     Q Did it come as a surprise to you that
 9 somebody else other than you and Donaldson had been
10 solicited to return money?
11     A Absolutely.
12     Q Was that because of the trust you had in the
13 sheriff?
14     A Yes.
15     Q Do you know whether or not Mike Coup knew at
16 the time Larry Ashley told you, do you know if Mike
17 Coup knew about any of that?

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18     A I don't think he did, no. Obviously, he
19 didn't.
20          MR. EDGAR: Object to the form of the
21     question. It's vague and overbroad.
22     Q And so you said you were in shock. What
23 occurred next? Did Larry say, I'm going to do this,
24 or did he tell you what his plan was or did he have a
25 plan?
0080
 1     A I didn't really -- I'm sure we had bits and
 2 pieces of conversation maybe that day. I'm thinking
 3 it was a Friday. And if my memory serves me
 4 correctly, is I didn't have any contact through him
 5 with the weekend at all. At some point -- I read this
 6 report and the times on this, there's a couple of
 7 things that are inaccurate in there.
 8     Q When you're talking about the report, you're
 9 talking about --
10     A The FBI report.
11     Q Exhibit 1, right?
12     A Yes. As I was thinking it was in the
13 morning. The report reflects it's in the afternoon
14 that Larry, after the breakfast club, comes to my
15 office and -- it might have been the afternoon, I
16 don't know. He tells me that he had contacted Steve
17 Parker with the FBI and had made contact with him.
18 And that he had talked to George over the weekend and
19 he -- then he had gotten some advice and he went to
20 the FBI with it and wanted to know if I would come
21 with him and talk to him.
22     Q Who did he say he had gotten advice from?
23     A I believe it was his father-in-law, the
24 attorney.
25     Q And for the purpose of the record, who is
0081
 1 that, if you know?
 2     A I don't know his first name.
 3     Q His last name?
 4     A Is Lee.
 5     Q Is Lee. Attorney Lee?
 6     A Yes.
 7     Q Now, when he -- then he asked you to go to
 8 the FBI with him?

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 9    A Yes.
10     Q And did you agree to do that?
11     A Sure, yes.
12     Q Now, did -- why was Mike Coup, if you know,
13 excluded from going to the FBI?
14     A At that particular time it was a matter of
15 who you could trust and who you couldn't trust.
16     Q Did you have anything factually that gave
17 you cause for concern that you would not be able to
18 trust Mr. Coup?
19     A After being told what happened that Friday
20 or Thursday, whatever day it was, I didn't know what
21 to believe, to be honest with you.
22     Q Did any of that relate directly to Michael
23 Coup?
24     A At that time I don't know, because it's an
25 unknown. You're don't know where you're going.
0082
 1    Q But you didn't have any information that
 2 indicated that Michael Coup was involved?
 3    A But I didn't have any information that said
 4 that he wasn't, Jim.
 5    Q One way or the other. That's my question to
 6 you.
 7    A I understand that.
 8    Q Now, the 302s -- and by that we're talking
 9 about Exhibit 1 to this deposition -- you've had a
10 chance to go over that. You feel there's a couple of
11 inaccuracies in there?
12     A Well, I just don't know if the time is
13 right. The only other one is that -- it's probably
14 pretty trivial. I went home that evening after I
15 spoke with him, ran off a copy of my bank records, and
16 I had the stub that indicated the performance pay and
17 the tax information on it and gave it to him the next
18 day -- or give it to Larry Ashley to give to him the
19 next day.
20     Q Is that correct or incorrect?
21     A This?
22     Q What you just read.
23     A That's incorrect because I know what I did.
24     Q And for the purpose of the record, what did
25 you do?

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0083
 1    A I made copies of my bank statements that
 2 night at my house. The next morning, I got up and I
 3 kept a file on my pay stubs, which I keep, found that
 4 particular pay stub, provided those things in an
 5 envelope to Larry Ashley, who provided those to the
 6 FBI agents.
 7    Q Did you have any conversation with Larry
 8 Donaldson over the weekend?
 9    A I could have, but I don't remember if I did.
10     Q Do you know how Larry Donaldson was brought
11 in to the circle with you and Ashley?
12     A I told Larry Ashley that day when the
13 conversation first took place that Larry Donaldson --
14 had told him about us going to Terry and told him what
15 happened with me and Larry.
16     Q Was Donaldson brought into the conversation
17 at that point?
18     A No, not at that point, not with me. Now,
19 him and Larry, I'm sure, talked.
20     Q Do you know for a fact that they did talk?
21     A I don't know.
22     Q You're saying they could have?
23     A They could have. You need to ask them.
24     Q At some point did the three of you talk
25 before going to the FBI?
0084
 1    A No. Well, not about going to the FBI. We
 2 could have talked, Jim, I don't know. I don't really
 3 remember.
 4    Q Did you have some reluctance to
 5 participating in the FBI investigation?
 6    A Absolutely not.
 7    Q Were you concerned about your personal
 8 exposure?
 9    A Wasn't concerned about my personal exposure.
10 I mean, it is what it is. What I was concerned about
11 is -- and as reflected in this 302 -- is my first
12 conversations with Agent Parker and Agent Van Pelt is,
13 do you, in fact, know how powerful a Florida sheriff
14 is, because our careers are over. And then I asked
15 who the prosecuting attorney was going to be. They
16 told me Randy Hinsel, who I have a history with

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17 through cases. I asked to speak to him. I spoke with
18 him on the phone. Randy said that this investigation
19 has been approved by the United States attorney, and
20 he would be prosecuting the case. I told him that's
21 all I needed to hear.
22     Q Was there any representations made to you
23 about your cooperation would result in some benefit to
24 you?
25     A No.
0085
 1    Q How many times did you actually have some
 2 type of recording device where you attempted to
 3 intercept conversations?
 4    A Three. Well, I take that back. Two days --
 5 two days, three conversations.
 6    Q And you've already told me about the
 7 conversations relating to Mr. Coup?
 8    A Yes.
 9    Q You said there was one direct and one --
10     A One indirect, yes.
11     Q Did you have any concerns about you being
12 charged?
13     A No, not really, because I never had the
14 intent to commit a crime. Embarrassing, yes.
15     Q At the time that you went in to engage
16 Mr. Coup in a conversation about you returning money,
17 did you have any knowledge at that point that he was
18 in any way involved in Sheriff Morris' scheme to get
19 money back from bonuses?
20     A I didn't, no.
21     Q Did anybody at the FBI have any reason?
22     A I think it became a time -- I can't speak
23 for them. Obviously, it became a time to solicit
24 conversation, I guess, to find out.
25     Q Let me back up for just a little bit and ask
0086
 1 you this. I want to go back to that day, the Thursday
 2 or Friday that you told us about where Ashley was
 3 upset and said, I don't know if I can trust you. At
 4 that particular point in time, prior to that, had
 5 there been discussions with you by Larry Ashley
 6 concerning his running for sheriff at the end of
 7 Sheriff Morris' term -- current term.

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 8       MR. EDGAR: Object to the form of the
 9    question. It's vague.
10     A Larry Ashley always said he's going to run
11 for sheriff when Charlie Morris...
12     Q Prior to the I don't know if I can trust you
13 comment, when was the last time he had a conversation
14 with you about running for sheriff?
15     A I don't know.
16     Q Would it have been within the same day or
17 the previous week?
18     A No.
19     Q Do you know of your own knowledge either now
20 or based on what you found out that sheriff -- that
21 Ashley was told by Sheriff Morris that he was going to
22 run for yet another term?
23     A Yes.
24     Q And do you know when Larry Ashley became
25 aware of that?
0087
 1    A I don't know what day it was, breakfast club
 2 again. Charlie Morris said that due to personal
 3 financial things with his parents and everything, that
 4 he was going to run another term. He asked us our
 5 opinion and asked us what Larry would think about it.
 6 And I said, I don't know. You needed to ask him,
 7 probably upset. I don't know.
 8    Q Do you know if Larry Ashley was upset?
 9    A He had a conversation with him that morning.
10 The only thing that Larry told me was -- is that
11 Charlie Morris started crying like a child when he was
12 telling him he was going to run again and told Larry
13 that he was a good Christian man and that was it.
14     Q Did that conversation occur before or after
15 Larry Ashley's comment to you about I don't know if I
16 can trust you?
17     A I don't know. I really don't.
18     Q Is there anything that you can look at to
19 say if it occurred before that?
20     A It really wasn't -- on the importance level,
21 it wasn't that big a deal to me.
22     Q Was it in the same time frame?
23     A In close proximity, yes.
24     Q Close proximity. Now, have there been any

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25 internal investigations, IA investigations open on you
0088
 1 as a result of your returning money?
 2     A Not that I know of.
 3     Q You've not been placed on notice?
 4     A No.
 5     Q Do you know if any of the other employees,
 6 other than Coup or Norris or Yacks, have had any
 7 internal investigations opened up on them as a result
 8 of returning money from the bonuses?
 9     A Not that I'm aware of. Now, I could be
10 mistaken. I don't know.
11      Q Do you know why an internal affairs
12 investigation was not opened up concerning the
13 circumstances of you returning money?
14      A You would have to ask Sheriff Spooner.
15      Q That would be -- Sheriff Spooner had sole
16 control over that?
17      A I was over -- what he did was delineate some
18 responsibilities. The Office of Special Standards
19 came under my umbrella under criminal investigations.
20 I merely gave oversight.
21      Q Now, prior to Larry Ashley's comment to you
22 on that Friday, I don't know if I can trust you, prior
23 to that, had he expressed concerns to you about some
24 of the sheriff's decision making and behavior that he
25 thought was politically damaging?
0089
 1        MR. EDGAR: Object to the overbroad
 2     question.
 3     A He expressed concerns. I can't give you any
 4 specifics. I mean, just as when you were there, there
 5 was things we disagreed about and we talked about.
 6     Q Has either Angel DeJesus or George Wilson
 7 done work at your house?
 8     A Angel has.
 9     Q What type of work did he do?
10      A He helped me fix some damaged wood, repair,
11 off duty, 5:30 at night. I had taken off -- I had
12 some water damage on a window.
13      Q And what year was that in?
14      A '08. 2008.
15      Q 2008?

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16     A Yes.
17     Q Did he have anybody to help him do that?
18     A No.
19     Q Just the two of you?
20     A Yes.
21     Q How many days did it take to repair the
22 damage?
23     A About an hour.
24     Q Pretty small job?
25     A Yes.
0090
 1     Q And how did you compensate him for that?
 2     A I didn't.
 3     Q He just did it as a favor?
 4     A Yes.
 5     Q Now, have you had in 2008 or 2007, have you
 6 had some family emergencies that occurred out of
 7 state? And specifically I'm talking about Illinois or
 8 Indiana.
 9     A Yes. Death of my father-in-law.
10     Q Your father-in-law passed away, your wife's
11 father?
12     A That's correct.
13     Q And did you have to attend a funeral up
14 there?
15     A I went, yes.
16     Q And did you use an OCSO vehicle to go to
17 that funeral?
18     A Yes, I did.
19     Q Who knows about that other than you --
20 strike that. Let me back up.
21            Who approved that?
22     A The sheriff.
23     Q Do you know if anybody else knows about that
24 other than you and the sheriff?
25     A Obviously.
0091
 1     Q Other than my question. Of your --
 2     A I don't know. It wasn't a secret.
 3     Q Do you know if Michael Coup knew about that?
 4     A He very well could have.
 5     Q Do you have any facts where Michael actually
 6 talked to you about using an OCSO vehicle?

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 7    A No. I called the sheriff, told him of my
 8 father-in-law's death, asked him if I could use one of
 9 the sheriff's office cars because mine wasn't reliable
10 and told him I would pay for the gas. He said it
11 wouldn't be a problem.
12     Q Do you know if that's a violation of policy
13 to use an OCSO vehicle out of county?
14     A I don't believe it is, no.
15     Q Do you know one way or the other?
16     A Yes. I mean, our vehicles -- I don't know.
17 No, I don't know.
18     Q Do you know if there has been an IA
19 investigation as a result of your use of an OCSO
20 vehicle for family business?
21     A No, Jim, there hasn't been no internal
22 affairs investigation on use of a vehicle.
23     Q Now, have you ever used the vehicle to go
24 over to Mississippi, the OCSO vehicle?
25     A Yes.
0092
 1    Q How many times?
 2    A Probably two or three.
 3    Q Where did you go?
 4    A To Biloxi.
 5    Q And by that, do you mean the casino in
 6 Biloxi?
 7    A Yes.
 8    Q Did you take anybody with you?
 9    A My wife.
10     Q Did you get permission to use an OCSO
11 vehicle to go to Mississippi?
12     A It was implied.
13     Q That's what I'm trying to get at. It was
14 implied by the sheriff, said you could do it or the
15 policy allows you to do it?
16     A The sheriff has a very liberal vehicle
17 policy, and we could use it.
18     Q Could an investigator take his vehicle with
19 his family over to Biloxi to go in one of the casinos?
20     A Yes.
21     Q What about a marked patrol unit?
22     A I think he would have a problem with that.
23     Q Other than the fact that one's marked and

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24 one is unmarked, would you agree with me, there's no
25 real difference there?
0093
 1     A Correct.
 2     Q Now, was there a point in time in which you
 3 used a county vehicle -- and by that, I'm talking
 4 about OCSO vehicle -- to move your daughter to FSU in
 5 Tallahassee?
 6     A No.
 7     Q Did you use trucks or trailers or anything?
 8     A No. I borrowed Arnold Brown's trailer and
 9 used my Tahoe to tow it.
10      Q Your Tahoe, you mean personal Tahoe?
11      A Yes.
12      Q Was this the vehicle that was not reliable
13 enough for you to use for the family emergency that
14 you told me about?
15      A That vehicle was in use here -- yes, that's
16 correct.
17      Q But that was owned by you personally?
18      A Yes.
19      Q Not by the --
20      A Yes.
21      Q Now, have you currently transferred a
22 request out to the airport?
23      A Absolutely not. I don't know where you're
24 getting your information. I have been -- since I have
25 experience at the airport, they are doing a security
0094
 1 assessment and I'm assisting with it.
 2     Q Tell me in your role as head of
 3 investigations how you're assisting with the security
 4 assessment.
 5     A They have hired a private firm to do a
 6 test -- or an airport security assessment, which is
 7 still ongoing. It's assessed -- the security platform
 8 and plan for that airport that has to be approved by
 9 TSA to see if they are doing everything right or if
10 they need to do something different. I'm just part of
11 oversight on that for the Okaloosa -- for the sheriff.
12 Mark Young is the acting supervisor out there and is
13 actively involved in it.
14      Q Is there any memorandums or orders directing

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15 that you assume this responsibility?
16     A Yes, by the sheriff.
17     Q The sheriff issued a memorandum?
18     A Yes. Him and Greg Donovan spoke by E-mail,
19 and it was handled that way.
20     Q But did the sheriff tell you verbally or did
21 he follow it up in writing that you were to assist?
22     A He told me verbally and -- when they were
23 trying to work out dates on when these first kickoff
24 meetings were going to be, there were E-mail
25 exchanges.
0095
 1        MR. MURRAY: I think that's the only
 2    questions I've got. Who's next? Give me one
 3    second, whoever is next. One thing here.
 4    I've just got one thing.
 5    Q Have you responded or had an opportunity to
 6 review any of the FDLE reports?
 7    A No.
 8    Q Okay. I want to show you --
 9        MR. MURRAY: And we will mark this as
10     Exhibit 2. Russ, it's Serial Number 35,
11     FDLE.
12
13               (Defendant's Exhibit No. 2 was
14               marked for identification purposes
15               only.)
16
17     Q You're welcome to read the whole thing. I'm
18 just primarily interested in the last full sentence or
19 the last paragraph.
20     A Okay.
21     Q The concluding sentence here -- and it
22 actually pertains to Larry Ashley, but it says in
23 here: "When Chief Coup was presented with these
24 matters -- and they are talking about allegations
25 involving office personnel, county jail inmate labor
0096
 1 and Barbara Morris and those type of things. "When
 2 Chief Coup was presented with these matters, he
 3 responded he would take care of it. To Ashley's
 4 knowledge, he never did." Do you know anything at all
 5 about that?

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 6     A I'm sure we talked about it, but I don't --
 7 to be honest with you, I don't know what context it
 8 was in. I mean, we talked about these things.
 9 They're -- for Charlie Morris, it's politically
10 embarrassing. It could cost him an election if these
11 things were brought to light.
12     Q Well, were you present when Ashley discussed
13 these with Michael Coup?
14     A No. I don't believe I was.
15     Q You don't have any recollection of that?
16     A It's not in my retention part of my brain
17 right now, no.
18     Q I'm not asking you to take issue with it.
19 I'm just asking were you present when Ashley did what
20 he said he did?
21     A You know, I very well could have been, Jim.
22 It wouldn't be uncommon for it to be a group
23 discussion. But we had so many discussions, you know,
24 I very well could have been there. I don't know.
25     Q But you wouldn't have any way of knowing
0097
 1 whether or not Chief Coup had discussed these matters
 2 with Sheriff Morris?
 3     A I have no idea.
 4     Q And all of you had equal access -- and when
 5 I say all of you, all of command staff members had
 6 equal access to the sheriff to discuss whatever they
 7 wanted to. Is that a fair statement?
 8     A You could and you couldn't. No, that's not
 9 fair.
10     Q Well, let me tell you what I'm getting at,
11 and then you can explain it whatever way you're
12 comfortable with. You weren't required to go to Chief
13 Coup to get to Sheriff Morris, were you?
14     A No.
15     Q And so if you wanted to discuss something
16 with the sheriff, you could go directly to the sheriff
17 as a command staff member?
18     A Yes.
19     Q Without going through Chief Coup?
20     A Yes, you could.
21     Q Without any retribution for not having
22 discussed --

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23     A I'm not going to say that, but you had the
24 authority to do that.
25     Q Who are you talking about when you say --
0098
 1    A Either chief or -- I mean, Chief Coup or
 2 Mike or the sheriff.
 3    Q Did Michael Coup ever take any adverse
 4 action against you for you having gone to the sheriff
 5 before going to him?
 6    A No.
 7    Q Ever say anything to you that something bad
 8 or adverse would happen if you did do it?
 9    A Not to me directly, no.
10     Q Did he pass -- get the information to you
11 indirectly?
12     A Not to me directly, no. Not involving me.
13     Q Okay. To anybody else?
14     A To Larry Donaldson, yes.
15     Q What, if anything, did Michael Coup tell
16 Larry Donaldson in your presence?
17     A I can't remember. I mean, I can't even
18 remember what the situation was. It was basically, if
19 he didn't like it, pack your bags and go to the house.
20     Q Are you saying that's something that
21 Mr. Coup said to Larry Donaldson?
22     A Yes.
23     Q About a decision that had been made by Chief
24 Coup or the sheriff?
25     A It was probably a decision that was made by
0099
 1 the sheriff and Coup.
 2        MR. MURRAY: Thank you.
 3             CROSS-EXAMINATION
 4 BY MR. PETERSEN:
 5    Q Mr. Schniepp, my name is Nick Petersen. I
 6 represent David Yacks. Do you know of any private
 7 benefits Mr. Yacks received from public funds,
 8 anything about that?
 9    A No.
10     Q Did you write a report concerning Mr. Yacks
11 at all?
12     A No.
13     Q You testified earlier that you knew there

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14 were some employees that were getting bonuses and
15 giving cash back to Charlie Morris or Teresa Adams.
16 Did anyone ever tell you that Mr. Yacks knew about
17 anyone getting bonuses and giving cash back to Teresa
18 Adams or Charlie Morris?
19      A I didn't know anything about David Yacks
20 till after. What I knew -- what I knew then and what
21 I know now is different.
22      Q Well, has anyone told you that Yacks knew
23 about what was going on?
24      A No.
25      Q Did anyone ever tell you of any person who
0100
 1 knew about receiving bonuses by other employees?
 2     A I'm sorry?
 3     Q Did any employee tell you that they knew
 4 about other employees getting bonuses?
 5     A No.
 6     Q And I believe your testimony was that was
 7 something that Charles Morris required to be kept
 8 secret?
 9     A Well, I know that he gave performance pay.
10 To who he gave it to and how much they were, I did not
11 know.
12      Q Were there any type of bonuses that you are
13 now aware of that were not performance pay?
14      A I mean, that's the way he categorized all of
15 them.
16      Q Okay. Do you know what type of work Yacks
17 did for the sheriff's department?
18      A He worked in IT. I believe that he was
19 involved in the data share portion of it.
20      Q Did you have any direct involvement in the
21 work that he was doing?
22      A No.
23      Q Do you know if he was doing a good job with
24 his job and everything or not?
25      A He seemed to be. He seemed to be doing a
0101
 1 good job.
 2     Q Did anyone ever tell you he was not doing a
 3 good job?
 4     A I think the only issue that came up one time

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 5 on management personnel-wise was his attendance of the
 6 Florida games, becoming a little too much.
 7    Q He was a Gator, is he?
 8    A Yes, he is.
 9    Q Do you know of any -- did anyone ever tell
10 you that Mr. Yacks conspired with anyone to give
11 bonuses or cash back or anything like that?
12    A No.
13    Q Did all the employees who received bonuses
14 that you talked to, did they all tell you Sheriff
15 Morris told me not to tell anyone?
16    A I believe so, yes.
17    Q Any reason to believe that Sheriff Morris
18 did not tell David Yacks the same thing?
19    A That's an opinionated question, but based on
20 his past, I would expect that.
21    Q Okay. At the time frame that where you were
22 receiving some bonuses and you gave cash back -- you
23 gave cash back one time. Is that correct?
24    A Yes, sir.
25    Q Did you trust Charlie Morris?
0102
 1    A Yes.
 2    Q And Teresa Adams?
 3    A Yes.
 4    Q Would you have expected other employees to
 5 have the same trust --
 6    A Yes.
 7    Q -- in those two people?
 8    A Yes.
 9    Q If you had a question about the legality of
10 a money issue involved with the Okaloosa County
11 Sheriff's Department, would you, in fact, contact
12 Teresa Adams?
13    A Yes. She was the C.F.O.
14    Q That's the one to ask, isn't it?
15    A You would think.
16    Q Any evidence to suggest that David Yacks
17 knew of the performance bonuses given to you or Larry
18 Donaldson and Tony Wasden to have a good time in Las
19 Vegas?
20    A I have no idea. I don't know if he knew
21 anything or not. I don't know.

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22     Q When you received one of these performance
23 bonuses, was it directly deposited into your bank
24 account?
25     A Yes.
0103
 1    Q Which bank was that?
 2    A Eglin Federal Credit Union.
 3    Q And then when you got the $5,000 in cash,
 4 did you take it out of that bank?
 5    A Yes, I did.
 6    Q Did you ever have a recorded conversation
 7 with David Yacks?
 8    A No.
 9    Q Did you ever give a taped statement to the
10 State Attorneys' office?
11     A Yes.
12     Q Have you ever seen that statement?
13     A No.
14     Q Do you know when Mr. Yacks started working
15 for the sheriff's department?
16     A I think he's been with us for four years,
17 maybe.
18     Q Do you know what he was hired for?
19     A He worked IT issues. I knew that for
20 whatever reason he worked at Home Depot in
21 distribution on a national level and -- or something
22 like that.
23     Q Do you know if his immediate supervisor was
24 Mike Hull?
25     A Yes.
0104
 1    Q And did you ever ask Mr. Yacks for any
 2 assistance on anything you were working on?
 3    A We had interaction because of the job, but
 4 nothing specific. I mean, IT issues.
 5    Q And did he satisfactorily complete the task
 6 that he was involved in?
 7    A Yes.
 8    Q Do you know if this investigation or charges
 9 have anything to do with Mr. Yacks' job performance?
10     A Not that I know of, no.
11     Q Did you feel compelled to follow any order
12 Sheriff Morris gave you?

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13     A That's kind of a broad question.
14     Q If he told you to do something, would you do
15 it?
16     A If he told me to jump off a bridge, no, I
17 wouldn't do it. But for the most part, yes.
18     Q Do you feel that's the way any other
19 employees that you're aware of felt about Charlie
20 Morris?
21     A Yes.
22     Q He was very loyal to his people?
23     A He seemed to be, yes.
24     Q And the employees were loyal to him?
25     A Yes.
0105
 1    Q Is there any way that you know of that
 2 Mr. Yacks could have determined that a request or a
 3 direction of Charlie Morris was illegal?
 4    A I can't answer that because I don't know
 5 what he knew. I mean...
 6    Q If a civilian employee was asked to do
 7 something by Charlie Morris that was questionable,
 8 what would you expect that civilian employee to do?
 9    A To ask somebody sworn as a law enforcement
10 officer.
11     Q And you're a sworn --
12     A Or staff attorney.
13     Q And you're a sworn law enforcement officer?
14     A Yes, I am.
15     Q Do you feel that the bonuses that you
16 received was in any way different from the bonuses
17 Mr. Yacks received?
18     A I don't know, because I don't know exactly
19 what Mr. Yacks got. I don't know.
20     Q Most of these questions have already been
21 asked.
22           Did Mr. Yacks ever discuss with you his
23 reasons for going to Las Vegas?
24     A No.
25     Q Would you ever leave -- did you work 9:00 to
0106
 1 5:00?
 2    A Did I?
 3    Q Yes.

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 4    A Usually I worked from about 5:15 in the
 5 morning and went home about 4:00, 4:30 that afternoon,
 6 every day.
 7    Q Did Mr. Yacks work about the same hours as
 8 you did?
 9    A I'm not familiar -- he would work during the
10 day.
11     Q Did you ever leave and Yacks was still there
12 working?
13     A He very well could have been.
14        MR. PETERSEN: Those are my questions.
15            REDIRECT EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. MURRAY:
17     Q Just to clarify something. You indicated
18 that you gave a taped interview to the State
19 Attorney's Office.
20     A Randy Crowder.
21     Q Was it just you and Randy one-on-one?
22     A Yes.
23     Q Did you ever see a copy of any transcript or
24 had an opportunity to review the tape?
25     A No.
0107
 1    Q The recording, was it with a digital
 2 recording device of some sort?
 3    A Yes.
 4    Q And you knew you were being recorded?
 5    A Yes.
 6       THE WITNESS: Do you want me to call
 7    Spooner now?
 8       MR. KLOTZ: I'm guessing I'm going to be
 9    longer than 30 minutes.
10             CROSS-EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. KLOTZ:
12     Q I'm Chris Klotz. I'm Sandy Norris' lawyer.
13 And while it's fresh on my mind, let me just ask you:
14 Talking about the three -- you received a $3,000
15 performance bonus when you went to Las Vegas from
16 Sheriff Morris to -- for entertainment purposes. Did
17 I hear you correctly?
18     A Ask Charlie Morris what it was for. But
19 yes, he gave me $3,000 performance pay.
20     Q And I think I recall your testimony was that

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21 he said, because I want you to have a good time?
22     A That's correct.
23     Q You implied, though, you may not have used
24 that money out in Las Vegas to have a good time. What
25 did you end up using that money for?
0108
 1    A Personal bills.
 2    Q Did you -- go ahead.
 3    A I mean, I have a daughter that was in
 4 college, used it for personal expenses, family
 5 expenses.
 6    Q Was it your impression that Sheriff Morris
 7 had given you money for your trip to Las Vegas?
 8    A Yes.
 9    Q And you didn't have any -- did you ever ask
10 him if he minded if you used it for something else
11 than for your trip to Vegas?
12     A No.
13     Q Did he give you -- was there any other bonus
14 that came along with the $3,000 bonus, or was that
15 time just in proximity with your --
16     A It was time and proximity for that.
17     Q Did it come before or after your trip?
18     A Before.
19     Q How long before did it come to you?
20     A I don't know. You would have to look at the
21 records.
22     Q Was it months ahead or maybe a --
23     A Probably within that month. Whatever that
24 pay cycle was, wherever it fell.
25     Q And do you recall when the last time before
0109
 1 that $3,000 bonus was that you had received a bonus
 2 from Sheriff Morris?
 3    A We got the one in September. And you would
 4 have to look at the pay records.
 5    Q Okay. And do you remember when the trip to
 6 Vegas was? I'm sorry if you already answered that.
 7    A It was in October.
 8    Q So you had received maybe a bonus in
 9 September and then one in October, which was $3,000?
10     A Correct.
11     Q And do you remember approximately what the

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12 one was in September that you had received?
13      A No. That was for our pay raise.
14      Q And that was a total of $6,000?
15      A It was a total of $11-, $5- of it being
16 given back, and a total of $6-.
17      Q Had you ever received an $11,000 bonus
18 before --
19      A No.
20      Q -- from Sheriff Morris or at any other point
21 during your 24 years in law enforcement?
22      A No.
23      Q Was that an unusually high amount of a bonus
24 for you to receive?
25      A Yes.
0110
 1     Q And did you feel that maybe -- had you ever
 2 received a $6,000 bonus before?
 3     A No.
 4     Q Had you ever -- what was the highest bonus
 5 before the $11,000 bonus in September of 2008 that you
 6 received while you were working with the Okaloosa
 7 County Sheriff's Department?
 8     A Well, when you go to the records, I think it
 9 was all cataloged as performance pay.
10      Q And when I say that, I sometimes just use
11 that word interchangeably.
12      A I know. But I'm trying to think back.
13 Because when I made the rank of captain, they paid out
14 some annual leave and things. Then there was one that
15 he asked me if I wanted to get my raise up front first
16 instead of being spread out over a 12-month period,
17 which I said, sure. I think that might have been in
18 the amount of $6,000 or so. Then when I looked at my
19 FRS report at the end of the year, it showed a
20 decrease in my annual salary as far as retirement
21 goes, so I didn't do that again.
22      Q So --
23      A Make sense?
24      Q Yeah. So it worked out better for you
25 because you would have received credit against your
0111
 1 retirement and everything else if you had not taken it
 2 in a lump sum?

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 3     A Correct.
 4     Q I understand. So would that $6,000 bonus
 5 that you took as a lump sum at the time that you were
 6 promoted, was that the next largest bonus that you had
 7 ever received?
 8     A Yes, I think so.
 9     Q Besides that -- the $6,000 bonus that you
10 received for when you took it as a lump sum at your
11 promotion and the $6,000 -- or actually the $11,000
12 bonus that you had received in September of '08, are
13 there any other bonuses that approached the
14 neighborhood of $6,000 for you?
15     A Not that I'm aware of, no.
16     Q Did you feel that maybe some of the 6,000 --
17 going to the September of 2008, $11,000 bonus, did you
18 feel as if maybe some of that $6,000 bonus was in some
19 way tied to the $5,000 that you were supposed to give
20 back to the sheriff?
21     A I didn't know about the $5,000 till that
22 morning. And he told us about it before it was
23 already in our accounts. And the $6,000 was something
24 that he had told us about before, all the command
25 staff, this is what I'm doing in lieu of giving you a
0112
 1 raise. So it was me, Larry Ashley, I don't know
 2 what -- Mike Coup's probably would have been a little
 3 bit greater because he's chief deputy, Larry
 4 Donaldson. I'm assuming Mike Hull, Terry Adams. That
 5 would have been the whole directorship, I guess.
 6     Q So the way it actually played out was, you
 7 knew that you were going to get -- did you know the
 8 amount of the $6,000 bonus that you were going to be
 9 getting in lieu of a raise or did you just know there
10 was a bonus coming in lieu of a raise?
11     A No, I think he told us $6,000.
12     Q What I'm hearing you say -- and correct me
13 if I'm wrong -- you knew there was about a $6,000
14 bonus coming, and then the morning of, you found out
15 actually there was $11,000 in there, but the sheriff
16 wanted back 5,000?
17     A Yes, he told me that. Charlie Morris did.
18     Q You didn't know that until after the money
19 had already been transferred into your account?

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20      A That's correct.
21      Q So the money was already there --
22      A That's correct.
23      Q -- in your account?
24      A I'm assuming you got that pay stub. I don't
25 know.
0113
 1     Q To your knowledge, was the same thing true
 2 with Donaldson's money, that he knew that there might
 3 be a bonus coming in lieu of a pay raise, but when
 4 he -- come to find out, on the morning the money was
 5 actually transferred, there ended up being more in
 6 there and the sheriff asked him as well? Are you
 7 aware if it --
 8     A He would have been aware of that. I'm not
 9 going to speak for him because that morning me and him
10 got together and we discussed it. And that's when we
11 made the decision, we're going to go give this to
12 Terry together so we could witness each other. That's
13 when I questioned Terry about, you know, is this okay.
14 Are we doing something wrong here.
15      Q Were there any other steps that you took
16 besides talking with Terry to determine whether or not
17 the cash back to Sheriff Morris was appropriate?
18      A No. If you can't trust the sheriff and you
19 can't trust your chief financial officer for 20 years,
20 I don't know who you can trust.
21      Q If for some reason you had suspected that
22 the answers that you were getting from -- that Sheriff
23 Morris might be putting you in a compromising position
24 and Terry Adams was somehow in cahoots with him, who
25 do you think the next person that you would have gone
0114
 1 to would have been? Would you have gone to a state
 2 attorney or FDLE? Who do you feel like the next
 3 appropriate person to go to with that type of
 4 question?
 5     A You're asking me an opinion, and I'm just
 6 not going to give you one. I think the appropriate
 7 authorities were done. It's done. What it is, it is.
 8     Q So your answer if you had thought -- well,
 9 let's say -- let's just say hypothetically that --
10      A I'm not into hypothetics. Ask me the facts.

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11     Q Well, we'll see if Mr. Edgar has an
12 objection to the question. Listen to the question
13 first because you might not mind answering.
14            If the sheriff had asked you to go take
15 some money out of the evidence room and you had some
16 problem with that and you asked Terry Adams and you
17 asked the sheriff if that was okay, would you have any
18 lingering doubt as to whether or not that would have
19 been something that was appropriate to do or not?
20     A I couldn't check money out of the evidence
21 room without going through other protocols, to begin
22 with. And no, I would not do it.
23     Q If somebody had asked you to do something
24 like that in some way, who would you go to if it
25 wasn't to the sheriff or if it wasn't to Terry? Is
0115
 1 there anybody else in law enforcement that you might
 2 ask?
 3    A I wouldn't have needed to ask. I know not
 4 to do it.
 5    Q So that's a clear cut issue to you
 6 regarding --
 7    A Taking money out of the evidence room, sure.
 8    Q You would agree with me that it's not so
 9 clear cut of a money issue -- or so clear cut of an
10 issue as to whether giving money back to the sheriff
11 was illegal or not, is it?
12     A What I'm telling you is, when the sheriff
13 approaches you and asks you to do something, which
14 you're not going to say no to if it's already there,
15 and you take it to a separate person who's the chief
16 financial officer, who I have known for 20 years and
17 was the chief financial officer under Larry Gilbert,
18 who I have no reason to distrust at all, and question
19 that person whether or not what you are doing is
20 right, is there anything illegal about this, are we
21 laundering money here, and then that person looks you
22 directly in the eye and says no, I would not do that
23 to you, then I have no reason to distrust her. She's
24 never given me a reason to distrust her in the past.
25     Q What's the difference then between the money
0116
 1 that Sandy Norris gave back to Terry Adams and the

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 2 money that you gave back?
 3    A I don't know what Sandy done other than what
 4 the audits have done (sic). My relationship with
 5 Sandy Norris was very distant. I never had that much
 6 interaction with her or...
 7    Q Are you aware that she's charged with --
 8    A Oh, yes, I'm aware of that.
 9    Q Are you aware that she's charged with giving
10 money back to Sheriff Morris through Ms. Adams one
11 time?
12     A I don't know how many times.
13         MR. EDGAR: Object. I don't think
14     that's a correct statement in the law.
15     Q Are you aware --
16         MR. EDGAR: Excuse me. The charges.
17     Q Are you aware that Ms. Norris is charged
18 with receiving one bonus that she gave back to Terry
19 Adams?
20     A I can tell you -- I don't know except for
21 what the audit is. I wasn't part of either
22 investigation as far as the inner-workings of it or
23 the paperwork or that type of thing, so I can't answer
24 that. I really don't know.
25     Q So you don't have -- you don't have enough
0117
 1 facts to make a determination of what might have been
 2 different between Ms. Norris giving performance bonus
 3 money back and your giving performance money back?
 4    A I don't know what her involvement -- I don't
 5 know.
 6    Q Do you have any evidence that would suggest
 7 that Ms. Norris was anymore involved than you in the
 8 cash-back scheme?
 9    A I have no idea.
10     Q So you do not have any evidence?
11     A No, I don't, no.
12     Q Okay. Did you ever talk with Ms. Norris
13 about her involvement or alleged involvement in any
14 improprieties with regard to giving money back to the
15 sheriff?
16     A No. The only thing I -- I had spoken to
17 her -- mine and Sandy's relationship wasn't very
18 personal at all. I just stopped into her office after

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19 Charlie Morris was arrested and told her I basically
20 appreciated what she did. That was before any of this
21 other came out.
22     Q That was after?
23     A Uh-huh. Everybody was real stressful.
24 Obviously, it was a stressful time. I didn't know --
25 and I don't know to what extent her involvement was.
0118
 1 I just don't know. I wasn't part of that
 2 investigation.
 3     Q Well, you said that you -- at some point
 4 that you participated -- and just correct me if I had
 5 written this down wrong. But I think at the first
 6 part of your deposition you said that you had
 7 participated in some way with the FBI in the course of
 8 their investigation?
 9     A The part that I participated with the FBI on
10 was on that Monday, went up there and told them what
11 transpired on September 30th. I volunteered to them
12 that if they ever needed to put a voice to their
13 investigation and agreed to do some undercover work
14 for them.
15     Q Okay. You received -- you received your
16 bonus back on September 30th of 2008. Would it have
17 been the 31st that you had given the money back to
18 Terry? Was it that same day or the next day?
19     A It would have been whatever day that would
20 have -- it should be on the check.
21     Q What I'm saying is it was the same day.
22     A Whatever day it was electronically deposited
23 into that account, it would have been that day.
24 You've got my bank records; it will reflect that.
25     Q Was there ever another time where you had
0119
 1 received performance pay that you withdrew cash on the
 2 same day or within a couple of days of having received
 3 the performance bonus?
 4     A There may have been. I don't know. That's
 5 not the only bank account I got.
 6     Q Did you ever participate in any of the
 7 interviews of Sandy Norris?
 8     A No.
 9     Q Did she ever make any statements to you

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10 regarding any involved criminal activity that she may
11 have had?
12     A No.
13     Q Are you aware of any instance in which
14 Ms. Norris was not truthful with any of the
15 investigators during the course of the investigation?
16     A I have -- I can't comment on that. I don't
17 know.
18     Q You're not aware of any?
19     A Not that I'm aware of, but I don't know.
20     Q Mr. Murray had asked you about integrity
21 checks. I think you said that one of the times where
22 you kind of violated the integrity check was when you
23 talked with Major Donaldson about the bonus issue. Is
24 that correct?
25     A Yes.
0120
 1    Q Was there any other time that you might have
 2 questioned anybody else about the -- you might have
 3 gone outside the integrity check issue where you were
 4 asked not to talk about something, but you actually
 5 talked about it with another one of your
 6 contemporaries?
 7    A I'm sure.
 8    Q Are you able to give me an example of when
 9 you might have done that on some other issue?
10     A I'm sure that I've done it several times.
11 When you talk about integrity checks, it's not
12 sometimes big things that happen. It's a trust factor
13 that he's checking you on. I'm sure that he's done
14 that with your client.
15     Q Why would you have felt more comfortable
16 going to Major Donaldson than going to Major Coup
17 about the performance pay that you had received?
18     A I met Mike Coup -- not met him, knew of him,
19 began working with him in 1997. I have known Larry
20 Donaldson since 1981.
21     Q Was Major Donaldson one of your closest
22 friends in the department or is he?
23     A He's one of my closer friends, correct.
24     Q Is there anybody else that is as close of a
25 friend of yours?
0121

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 1     A I would say Larry. Larry Ashley is what I
 2 consider old school.
 3     Q When you got your bonus on September 30th,
 4 do you remember when it was that you told Larry Ashley
 5 that you had been asked to give money back to the
 6 sheriff?
 7     A It was either on January 8th or whatever day
 8 that was -- 8th or that Thursday or Friday when he
 9 told me -- that I noticed something was wrong. I
10 said, what's wrong with you. He said, I don't know if
11 I can trust you. Told me the conversation he had with
12 George Wilson and that's when I told him what happened
13 to me.
14      Q How was it that George Wilson had found
15 out --
16      A I have no idea.
17      Q Well, let me ask you: Did George Wilson
18 know that you had received a request to give money
19 back to the sheriff?
20      A I can't answer that.
21      Q What do you think it was that gave Larry
22 Ashley suspicion about you having given money back to
23 the sheriff?
24      A I think when you hear something like that,
25 you don't know exactly how to react to it. That's a
0122
 1 pretty big thing.
 2     Q After you met with Terry -- let me ask you,
 3 on the day -- so you got the bonus on September 30th.
 4 You go withdraw the cash. You give it back to Terry.
 5 Is that right?
 6     A Yes.
 7     Q And that was -- you gave the cash to Terry
 8 after you had your conversation with Major Donaldson.
 9 Is that correct? Or did you have your conversation
10 with Major Donaldson first?
11      A No. We had it before that because we went
12 in there together.
13      Q When was the next time you said anything to
14 anybody about the -- about the fact that you had given
15 some money back to the sheriff?
16      A Probably right after that. Me and Larry
17 looked at each other and said, we're not doing that

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18 again.
19     Q And then after that, when was the next time
20 you had any conversation with anybody?
21     A Larry Ashley that day when -- in January.
22     Q Do you remember what day that was in
23 January?
24         MR. EDGAR: Objection. Asked and
25     answered several times.
0123
 1    A I said it was either Thursday or that
 2 Friday. I just really don't know.
 3    Q Were you and Major Donaldson still talking
 4 about the fact that that had happened at that point
 5 when you had your conversation with Larry Ashley in
 6 January of 2009, or had you -- did you and Major
 7 Donaldson continue to talk about the fact that you had
 8 been asked to give cash back after you looked at each
 9 other and said, we're not going to do that again, was
10 it something that you had discussed in between the
11 time that you spoke with Ms. Adams and the time that
12 you had your conversation with Mr. Ashley?
13     A Talking about in between those times?
14     Q Yes, sir.
15     A Not that I remember. I will tell you quite
16 frankly, when Terry told me that, I was satisfied. It
17 was unorthodox, yes. Weird, yes. I never thought for
18 one minute that there was anything wrong with it until
19 Larry Ashley told me that day, what he had found out
20 about George and your worst nightmare just came true.
21     Q Had you heard -- between the time of
22 September of 2009 and the time in January that you
23 spoke with Larry Ashley, had you heard that anybody
24 else had been asked to give money back to the sheriff
25 directly or through Ms. Adams?
0124
 1    A No.
 2    Q Did you make any other inquiry to see if
 3 anybody else had been asked to do that same thing?
 4    A No.
 5    Q Was there anybody else that was -- it seems
 6 like there was a kind of an inner circle of people
 7 that the sheriff had around him, including yourself,
 8 Donaldson, Coup, Adams. Was there anybody else that

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 9 you considered to be kind of on his inner circle of
10 friends or advisers or confidants within the sheriff
11 department?
12     A I know that me and Larry and Larry and Coup
13 met for breakfast every morning. The sheriff had
14 independent relationships with different people. I
15 mean -- I guess that would be a question for him, to
16 be honest with you.
17     Q How long had you known Larry Ashley?
18     A Since he became employed with the sheriff's
19 office. You would have to look at the records.
20 Twenty years, I guess, probably.
21     Q Had you known him longer than you had known
22 Major Donaldson?
23     A Larry Donaldson, I've known the longest.
24     Q Would you say that the $3,000 bonus that you
25 got, that the sheriff gave to you with the instruction
0125
 1 to use it to have fun in Vegas, did you feel at the
 2 time that was something that had been given to you to
 3 reward your performance?
 4    A Yes. I will tell you that since July of
 5 2002, when I was promoted to captain, that my salary
 6 and benefits have been at the sole discretion of the
 7 sheriff, and at that time, I worked for that man 24
 8 hours a day, seven days a week. He was the most
 9 high-maintenance individual I've ever worked for.
10     Q Did he ask you to do things outside of
11 regular business hours?
12     A All the time.
13     Q Did he have a high expectation that he held
14 you to in the performance of your duties?
15     A Every day.
16     Q And so even though he told you, here's this
17 $3,000, go have fun in Vegas, you felt that your prior
18 performances for him throughout the course of your job
19 warranted that performance bonus?
20     A I'm telling you that that's under the sole
21 discretion of the sheriff. Ask him that question.
22     Q But you didn't feel as if you were being
23 paid money for something that you didn't actually do?
24     A I would tell you that if the sheriff does
25 something, you don't disagree with him.

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0126
 1     Q Would you have accepted money from the
 2 sheriff as a performance bonus if you felt as if you
 3 had not been working hard?
 4     A I never felt that way. It's an opinionated
 5 question.
 6     Q But if you didn't think that you were doing
 7 that great of a job and --
 8     A I think I do a great job. I think I
 9 continue to do a great job to this day.
10     Q I'll tell you why I'm asking, is because
11 Ms. Norris feels like she worked very hard, too. And
12 she feels as if some of the bonuses that she received
13 were because she worked very hard. And now she's been
14 charged with this. And what I'm trying to get at is,
15 do you think the fact that you feel as an employee
16 that you had done a good job throughout the tenure of
17 your employment justified the sheriff giving you
18 bonuses at his discretion?
19     A I think that's still a question for the
20 sheriff -- or Charlie Morris.
21     Q So what was really important in what you are
22 saying -- I think what I'm hearing you say is that the
23 reward of somebody's performance was a subjective
24 thing that was up to the sheriff?
25     A That's exactly -- I don't know exactly -- I
0127
 1 can't even tell you exactly what Sandy's job was. So
 2 I mean, I don't know what her day-to-day work schedule
 3 was or what her responsibilities were, with the
 4 exception that she worked for finance and under Terry.
 5     Q Were there any other times that you received
 6 performance bonuses that may have been contemporaneous
 7 to any family need or family emergencies that you
 8 might have had?
 9     A Not to my knowledge. Again, you really need
10 to sit down with Charlie Morris and have him go
11 through those as to why's and what for's and what his
12 rationale was.
13     Q But in just sitting here and listening to
14 your conversation with Mr. Murray and Mr. Petersen,
15 I'm getting the impression that sometimes the sheriff
16 might perceive that somebody had a need in their

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17 family and their personal life and that he would give
18 them a bonus to help them through that time. Am I
19 right?
20     A I don't think -- I mean, I don't know what
21 he did specifically. The one question that Mr. Murray
22 brought up was the case of Don Fountain, which I found
23 out he had some funeral arrangements or expenses or
24 something that the sheriff helped him out on. I can't
25 tell you how much it even was. I don't know. There's
0128
 1 been other cases where people have come in and sold
 2 back annual leave, which was out of the norm -- or out
 3 of the routine, that he allowed to do.
 4     Q I guess what I'm asking, are there any
 5 instances where you might have had a particular
 6 personal need where --
 7     A Are you talking about me?
 8     Q Yes, sir. Where you might have some
 9 particular personal need that you let the sheriff know
10 that you had a need and then you received a bonus
11 after that?
12     A No. I've never asked Charlie Morris for
13 anything with the exception of using the car to go to
14 Illinois.
15     Q Had Ms. Adams ever done anything that might
16 have subjected her to any type of question about her
17 integrity, that you were aware of?
18     A No.
19     Q In looking back now in hindsight, do you
20 believe that the giving back of monies to the sheriff
21 was actually illegal?
22     A That's a question for Mr. Edgar and the
23 State Attorneys' Office.
24     Q So as a law enforcement officer you don't
25 have an opinion on that?
0129
 1     A I think it became illegal when it was
 2 determined -- the other mechanism of it, not the --
 3 basically the people that -- they were the
 4 facilitators. The criminal act occurred in another
 5 place.
 6     Q I'm not following you. I'm sorry.
 7     A Charlie -- and I don't know what

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 8 the mechanics of the investigation are. I don't know.
 9 All I know is you've got a salesman and you've got a
10 mechanic and you need two of them to do something.
11 One conducted the investigation. I'm not privileged
12 to know, don't know if I really want to know.
13      Q Let me ask you: If someone were to give
14 you -- if Sheriff Spooner were to give a performance
15 bonus now and then ask for a portion of it back, would
16 you do that?
17      A Come on. How many times we got to go
18 through this. No. What I know now, no, I would not
19 do it.
20      Q Because you know it's illegal, right?
21      A I don't know if it is illegal or not. To
22 give somebody performance pay and the taxes are paid
23 on it and to give it back, no, I don't think it is
24 illegal. It is your money, you do with it what you
25 want. It's what that person does with it that may
0130
 1 make it illegal.
 2     Q When you say that person, are you talking
 3 about the person who --
 4     A It depends on the scheme. I don't know. I
 5 mean, I didn't investigate this case. I don't know
 6 the mechanics of it. And I can't tell you who turned
 7 what buttons or who authorized who or who knew what.
 8     Q So as we sit here today, you're not able to
 9 tell me whether or not you think as a law enforcement
10 officer of 24 years that giving cash back to a sheriff
11 or his financial administrator at their request would
12 be a legal or illegal act?
13      A I would tell you here today that that is a
14 question of the State Attorneys' Office or the FBI.
15      Q Well, if I was to be sitting here with a bag
16 of cocaine in my pocket --
17      A You're not sitting here with a bag of
18 cocaine in your pocket, are you?
19      Q But if I was, is that illegal?
20         MR. EDGAR: Objection. Hypothetical.
21      And the form of the question.
22      A I'm not going to answer that. It's getting
23 a little ridiculous.
24      Q Well, it's not ridiculous.

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25         MR. EDGAR: Objection. You're arguing
0131
 1     with the witness.
 2     Q I'm just returning the argument. I usually
 3 respond in kind.
 4            All I'm asking you is, you have a great
 5 deal of knowledge based on a very significant history
 6 of a law enforcement officer of things that are legal
 7 and things that are not legal, don't you?
 8     A I think the questions you're trying to
 9 solicit from me are what I don't have. And I don't
10 have the inner-workings or knowledge of this
11 investigation. I did not conduct it. Okay. You're
12 talking to the wrong person.
13     Q I'm just asking you whether or not you
14 have --
15     A You're asking me an opinion. It's not based
16 on facts. And without the facts, then I can't give
17 you an educated opinion on it. I'm not going to give
18 you hypotheticals or answer hypothetical questions.
19     Q Do you think that you engaged in any illegal
20 conduct?
21     A I do not.
22     Q Do you think that anybody else who did only
23 what you did has engaged in illegal conduct?
24     A I can't answer that because, again, I'm not
25 part of the investigation. I don't have that
0132
 1 intricate knowledge of it.
 2     Q So if somebody else did the exact same thing
 3 that you did, exactly?
 4     A I don't know the circumstances. Again,
 5 you're asking me a hypothetical question.
 6     Q Do you think that Major Donaldson engaged in
 7 illegal conduct?
 8     A If he did only the thing that I did, no.
 9     Q That's all I was asking. If he did only the
10 things that you did --
11     A Those are questions you can ask of Larry
12 Donaldson.
13     Q I understand. But you --
14         MR. EDGAR: I'm going to object to the
15     line of questioning. It's just

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16      argumentative. So what? So what if he
17      doesn't think it's legal or illegal? So
18      what? It's just arguing with this man. What
19      do you want us to do, arrest him and then ask
20      him if he thinks it's legal? What kind of
21      ridiculous question is that?
22          MR. KLOTZ: Well, I'm wondering why he
23      hasn't been arrested.
24          MR. EDGAR: Well, you know, you can
25      become a prosecutor and maybe you can ask
0133
 1     those questions. But it's not your business
 2     to ask him -- to argue with him about what's
 3     legal or illegal in this case. Just get the
 4     facts. I mean, we're wasting time, and we
 5     don't have a lot of time.
 6 BY MR. KLOTZ:
 7     Q The facts are, is that you gave money back
 8 to the sheriff?
 9     A Correct.
10      Q And you have not been arrested for it, have
11 you?
12      A No.
13      Q And Major Donaldson gave money back to the
14 sheriff from a performance bonus and he hasn't been
15 arrested for it, has he?
16      A That's correct.
17      Q And there is many other people in the
18 Okaloosa County Sheriff's Department that are still
19 employed there that gave money back to the sheriff
20 and/or Ms. Adams that haven't been arrested?
21      A That's correct.
22      Q And I'm just asking you, what, if you know,
23 distinguishes my client's conduct from any of the
24 conduct of you or any other people that have not been
25 arrested?
0134
 1     A Again, I can't answer that because I don't
 2 know all what she did. I really don't.
 3     Q Has Ms. Norris ever told you she conspired
 4 with anybody to further the cash-back scheme? And
 5 when I say cash-back scheme, you know what I'm talking
 6 about, right?

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 7     A I have not had those conversations with her,
 8 no.
 9     Q Have you consulted with a private attorney
10 about any exposure that you might have?
11     A No.
12     Q Has anybody told you that Sandy Norris had
13 any knowledge of other employees who were returning
14 money to Adams or Morris?
15     A Not to my knowledge, no.
16     Q Do you have any evidence or do you know of
17 any evidence that Sandy Norris conspired with
18 Ms. Adams or Sheriff Morris to further the cash-back
19 scheme?
20     A Again, I'm not part of the investigation, so
21 I don't know.
22     Q Do you have any knowledge of whether
23 Ms. Norris had any knowledge of whatever type of
24 illegal activity may have been going on between
25 Charlie Morris and Sabra Thornton?
0135
 1     A Again, I don't know.
 2     Q Besides -- I think you've described three
 3 undercover tapes, two of which were intentional and
 4 one kind of unintentionally captured some conversation
 5 with Coup. Were there any other undercover recordings
 6 which you may have made or participated in?
 7     A I made an undercover recording with Terry
 8 Adams, one with Charlie Morris and one with Mike Coup.
 9     Q And none with Ms. Norris?
10     A No.
11     Q Are you aware of anybody who may have made
12 any undercover recordings with Ms. Norris?
13     A I can't answer that. I don't know.
14     Q Would you say that -- you would say you were
15 only a small player in the investigation of this
16 particular case. Is that correct?
17     A I would tell you the only part of this
18 investigation that I had was my initial contact with
19 the FBI and my conversation with Randy Hinsel, the
20 29th and 30th when I conducted an undercover
21 conversation with Terry Adams, Charlie Morris and Mike
22 Coup, and then when I was interviewed by the State
23 Attorney's Office.

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24      Q Did anybody instruct you not to make any
25 reports about the efforts that you engaged in, in the
0136
 1 investigation?
 2     A It wasn't my investigation. We weren't the
 3 investigating agency.
 4     Q Are you involved in Mr. Ashley's campaign?
 5     A No.
 6     Q Do you have any evidence that Ms. Norris
 7 ever lied or was uncooperative throughout the course
 8 of the investigation?
 9     A I don't know.
10      Q When y'all met at the breakfast club, who
11 paid for that, who paid for the breakfast?
12      A We each did. On occasion we would buy each
13 other's.
14      Q I think I'm almost done. Bear with me a
15 second.
16            Has -- do you have any information that
17 Morris or Adams ever told anybody that they were using
18 anybody -- or that -- let me reask that.
19            Do you have any information that Adams
20 or Morris has ever said that somebody participated in
21 a conspiracy with them or that they acted by
22 themselves?
23      A I've never talked to either one of them.
24      Q To your knowledge, Larry Ashley was never
25 asked to give money back to Adams or Morris, was he?
0137
 1     A Not that I'm aware of.
 2     Q Do you have any idea why that would have
 3 been?
 4     A No. You would have to ask Charlie Morris
 5 that question.
 6        MR. KLOTZ: That's all I have. Thanks
 7     for your time.
 8        MR. EDGAR: No questions.
 9        THE WITNESS: Now you want me to call
10      Spooner?
11                (The deposition of MARK SCHNIEPP
12                was concluded at 3:20 p.m., CST.)
13
14

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15
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0138
 1            CERTIFICATE OF OATH
 2
 3
 4
 5 STATE OF FLORIDA )
                 :
 6 COUNTY OF OKALOOSA )
 7
 8
             I, the undersigned authority, certify
 9 that MARK SCHNIEPP personally appeared before me and
   was duly sworn.
10
             WITNESS my hand and official seal
11 this 12th day of April, 2010.
12
13
14                 ________________________________
                  NINA E. TRAWICK
15                 Notary Public, State of Florida
                  My Commission No.: #DD 962504
16                 Expires: March 26, 2014
17
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25

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0139
 1         REPORTER'S DEPOSITION CERTIFICATE
 2
 3
 4
 5
 6 STATE OF FLORIDA                )
                   :
 7 COUNTY OF OKALOOSA )
 8            I, Nina E. Trawick, Registered
   Professional Reporter, hereby certify that I was
 9 authorized to report the deposition of MARK SCHNIEPP
   by virtue of stenographic shorthand; that a review of
10 said transcript was not waived by the witness
   hereinabove named; that this will be read and signed
11 by the witness.
12             I further certify that I am not a
   relative, employee, attorney nor counsel of any
13 parties named herein; nor am I a relative or employee
   of any attorneys named herein having connection with
14 this action, nor am I financially interested in this
   action.
15
              Dated this day of April, 2010.
16
17                   _________________________________
                   NINA E. TRAWICK
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0140
 1             CHANGE/REVISION SHEET
 2            I, MARK SCHNIEPP, hereby affirm that I
   was present for my deposition in the case styled,
 3 STATE OF FLORIDA vs. JAMES DAVID YACKS, CASE NO:
   2009-CF-1481, on April 12, 2009, at 11:45 a.m., and
 4 have read the foregoing 137 pages. Any changes or
   corrections I desire to make to my testimony are

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18    SIGNED THIS _____ DAY OF __________________, 200__.
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20    _________________________________
     MARK SCHNIEPP
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