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					ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                            8 May 2006




                         WORKSHOP REPORT
   N.B. This Workshop Report provides details of the discussions that took place on Day 1 of the
ESPACE Workshop. All presentations and additional documents referred to in the text of this report
                    are available on the website

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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                         8 May 2006

                                                                                SESSION 1
Bryan Boult
Good morning and welcome to the 4th ESPACE Workshop.

There are some new faces around the table which I would like to introduce: Tania
Stadsbader from RLZZZ, Mark Elliott from WSCC, Elaine Tantram from SCC and
Mike Steel from the Environment Agency.

I would also like to welcome back Reinhard Schmidtke who is now a consultant with LFW.

Today is going to be run by the consultants we have appointed to help us with the end of
the project outputs. The work will take place in three phases, as set out in the project plan.
The first phase of work is the Analysis of Partner Actions. Acclimatise are the appointed
consultants and I would like to ask John and Richenda to introduce themselves before they
start their session.

Acclimatise are going to be working very closely with all of us over the next 14 months.
The reason for that is because we have now moved into the last phase of the project. It is
the most important phase of the project. Until now we have been focussing on the partner
actions such as case studies, models, tools, etc. . We are now focussing on the end of the
project outcomes.

What we have got to do now is to pull all the work we have been doing together to come
up with our results and our recommendations for what spatial planning in Europe is going to
have to do to adapt to climate change.

At the moment I know that inside each of us is a little idea of what that might be. The task
of John and Richenda is to get us to articulate that, to bring it out from inside ourselves and
to develop it together with us. It is not their job to come up with that end answer, because
they don‟t know what it is, but we do. Their job is to get us to do that work. It is very
important for the next 14 months that all of us around the table are really engaged in that
and we see that vision. At the end of the day our stakeholders and target audiences are not
going to be that interested in the individual case studies and individual pieces of work we
have done. What they are very interested in is coming along to the final event to hear about
is what we said we were going to do when we started off working on this project together.
That is what the whole of the rest of the project is about. So it is a very big step we have
taken in this workshop.

I will now hand over to Richenda Connell who will introduce Acclimatise.

 Richenda Connell
Good morning everybody. It is great to have met most of you last night, and I look forward
to working with the rest of you today and getting to know you all. I am going to start with a
short introductory presentation about what we are trying to achieve today.

Briefly, I am going to tell you about Acclimatise, who we are, our role in ESPACE and how
we see ourselves working with you. Then we will gradually work through the steps of the
workshop during the course of the day.

We call ourselves a specialist risk management company. We are focussed entirely on
helping organisations adapt to climate change. We work with the planning community,
people with infrastructure and large fixed assets, essentially people who need to be thinking
long term on the kinds of decisions where climate change impacts will start to be important.

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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                         8 May 2006

From working with those sectors we also work with the investment community, the
insurance community and, increasingly, with law firms who are beginning to see the
relevance of climate change to their business and the transactions that they carry out as

I will let John introduce himself.

John Firth
It is a great pleasure to be here today. Richenda and I set up this company up about 18
months ago. My background is 28 years in the water industry in the UK, most of that time
as a strategic planning manager responsible for all the long term assets and the investment
plans of the company. I was responsible for putting together something like £6 billion of
investment over a 10 year period.

As well as a background in water management I am actually a chartered town planner as
well. So I have a professional interest in this work as I came from both the water side and
the spatial planning side as well.

My expertise probably is more in thinking about the risk assessment and management
issues, obviously through my water industry background. As a result of that, I have got a lot
of experience in things like change planning, financial planning, to think about what are the
right sorts of targets and indicators of performance actually are. Most recently, over the last
18 months, we have been looking at what the investment and insurance communities are
looking for in terms of climate change.

Richenda Connell
I think that is maybe one of the things that we are quite interested in picking up. Not
necessarily today, I am sure a bit of it comes through today, but we are interested in picking
up some interactions between what your work is delivering and how you see that relating to
the private sector.

In terms of me and where I come from, I am, by training, an atmospheric chemist. I worked
as an air pollution consultant for a big environmental consultancy in the UK called ERM for
four years, and then about 6½ years ago I joined an organisation called the UK Climate
Impacts Programme which the UK partners will know about. UKCIP was set up by the
British Government to help the UK prepare for the impacts of climate change. For instance,
Mark Goldthorpe is from the South East Climate Change Partnership which is one of the
regional partnerships established under the UKCIP umbrella. My role in the UKCIP was to
help these partnerships to find a way to help their region to begin to adapt to climate
change. I was also overseeing the research programmes that UKCIP was making happen,
looking at climate impacts on different sectors.

I also have a very strong interest in risk management. When I was with UKCIP I developed,
with the Environment Agency, a framework for managing climate risk which in fact got used
in the EA‟s ESPACE Decision Testing Tool for the first risk management framework.

Our role in ESPACE is to work closely with all of you, essentially extract all this fantastic
information out of you, all these incredible things that you have achieved. Today, obviously,
we are making a start on reviewing the actions you have undertaken and to begin to pull
out some of the trans-national lessons and findings. Then, as the project progresses, we will
be working with you to develop a common trans-national strategy, the guidance and some of
the policy. So we will be with you now until the end of the project and we are looking
forward to the last year to 18 months of it.

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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                            8 May 2006

The aim of today‟s workshop is to discuss how your work contributes to the development
of the trans-national strategy and the guidance and policies. It is really for us, to help us gain
a deeper understanding of what you have achieved so far, and maybe for you to point us to
some really key outputs that you have produced. I will freely say to you that we haven‟t
read every single report on the ESPACE website before we came here today. We have read
some of them. We tried to pick up some key ones, but what we are hoping is that you will
say „you really need to read this‟. We would be interested in you saying that this is one to
focus on.

Then, we have got this notion of what we are calling „pieces of the jigsaw‟. Is the term jigsaw
familiar to everybody? Maybe I could show this next slide. This is pieces of a jigsaw. As
Brian said, we want great end of project outputs, the strategy and the guidance. At the
moment we don‟t know quite what it looks like, we may have some components of the
jigsaw, we think we know the colour of the piece of the jigsaw but it is all a bit disconnected
and we don‟t know quite what it adds up to.

We hope as we progress that we can start to see some more detail emerging, and we think
we may start to see a picture beginning to emerge. If we work in this direction we may
think our strategy is going to be this beautiful masterpiece, the Mona Lisa, but we are not
yet sure and we may discover, as we carry on working on it, that in fact it is a slightly
different picture that we are working towards. So we have to keep an open mind at this
stage but try to colour in these pieces as we go along to develop the picture. If it is as
beautiful as The Girl with the Pearl Earring at the end we will be very pleased.

That is it from me for our short opening presentation. I wanted to know if anyone has any
questions at this point about what we are aiming for today.

Hans Weber
Can you give some remarks about the number of staff in your company?

Richenda Connell
We are quire a small company at the moment; we have 4½ members of staff.
If there are no further questions we will go into the first session.

This is where we are going to discuss barriers and risks, whatever they may be, to the
delivery of a better adapted spatial planning system. Before we came here we received the
spreadsheets you completed quite recently where you were asked to say what your work
contributed to the spatial strategy and common guidance etc. We have had a good look
through these spreadsheets and we have developed from those a view of the barriers and
risks that we see coming out across the different spreadsheets. We have tried to identify
common barriers and risks that have come across from all of your work. We would like to
discuss this list with you and for you to refine it, clarify it, amend it slightly with us. Then we
are going to vote on where you think your work has made the greatest contribution to
overcoming these barriers and risks. Then, later in the workshop, we will ask what lessons
you have learned, and what that tells us about the common trans-national strategy.

One of the things we are going to do during the course of the day is we have got these
pieces of A5 card and these are the “pieces of the jigsaw”. If we think during the course of
the day we know what a piece of the jigsaw is – regulation, communication, whatever it may
be – then we are going to write it on here and we will stick them up on one of the flipcharts
and gather those during the course of the day, so we are trying to capture some of those as
we go along. Then, when we get to the end of the day, we will talk about those pieces of
the jigsaw in more detail and see how we can begin to fit them together.

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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                          8 May 2006

On the slides you can see there are two tables with the barriers and risks. We have two
slides and there are four of these barriers and risks on each one. We have, maybe, seven
minutes per barrier to discuss it and for you to tell us what your work has shown you about
this barrier. We have made some crude assumptions about things that belong together, or
maybe we have described something in a particular way and you think, actually that is not
the way I see this barrier; my work has actually shown it to be more complex than that, or
different from that.

So, as I said, we are going to spend around 7 minutes each talking about these different
barriers, and John is then going to try and capture in the second column your richer
description of what these barriers or risks need.

The first barrier that we have identified is lack of awareness, lack of a sense of urgency or
agency for change. This could be maybe with the decision makers, or it could be with the
general public. Does anyone have any comments on having those things together?

Doogie Black
Some of the climate change research we have carried out in Hampshire after the workshop
we had in February, talks about behaviour change principles and how we can bring about
behaviour change which looks at awareness as one ingredient in the process. The sense of
urgency is normally an awareness issue but there are processes that get people to act upon
that using different ingredients (awareness, agency, association, action, architecture). We
have quite a lot of information on that.

Richenda Connell
So you are saying, basically, that awareness is the first step in these four.

Doogie Black
No. Awareness is one of the ingredients in that. What we are saying is that with issues like
climate change it can be so overwhelming that a raised level of awareness without any
understanding of what to do with that awareness can be quite a negative thing. So it is
important to get in the right quantities and the right balance so that awareness can lead to

Richenda Connell
So too much awareness without any notion of what to do makes you give up.

Hans Weber
Why did you say that point 1 is level of awareness. I think the first thing is to have the
information or the lack of information, and it is a requisite for following awareness.

Richenda Connell
That is a very good point. My apologies, I should have said that we haven‟t listed these
things in a particular order. So they don‟t represent the order that you need information in.
But I appreciate what you are saying, that the first thing you need is information. In fact we
have a barrier which is on information, which we come onto next. It is the second barrier.
It wasn‟t meant to be an order that represented a sequence of events.

Did anyone else have any reflections on awareness and agency?

David Payne

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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                           8 May 2006

I think in terms of urgency it is the political climate as well. Politicians who approve plans
aren‟t going to take a lot of notice necessarily if there are difficult things to decide. They
have very short time scales of being in power so it is difficult for creating an agency of
change. I am talking about local politicians, not the national.

Richenda Connell
Is that more about short-termism?

David Payne
It is agency for change. It is also the urgency. I think people are aware nationally and
internationally awareness and urgency seems to have risen up the agenda, but when you get
to the local level it is not there.

Richenda Connell
We will bring this up again later on. One of the later barriers is about short-termism and
political timescales.

Tim Reeder
I think one of the areas where change is needed is leadership.

Richenda Connell
So it is lack of leadership?

Tim Reeder
It is one of the reasons for the lack of awareness or urgency. It is one also an explanation
for the attitude “we have got the information but we don‟t want to know about it”. We
need leadership to take decisions. I still think the war simile is not too bad a one, i.e. we
need to do something that is nasty and different where it is necessary and that needs

Jill Rankin
That also ties in to your champions work on behaviour change.

Mark Goldthorpe
I think that awareness must also be relevant to the issues that people are facing, the decision
makers. There is a strong national and international awareness of the ice caps melting, but
there isn‟t an awareness of how climate change impacts on the decisions you are taking here
and now. The politicians tell you something we think of as a long term issue actually affects
the plans that are being designed now. So awareness has to be quite open and quite specific
to the area of responsibility.

Richenda Connell
So the relevance issue comes in. Is it relevant to me? Because they can‟t always make that
link themselves. We certainly see that. If you say to people in the UK that it is going to be
2 degrees warmer they say that‟s all right. It is very hard to make that seem like a problem.

John Firth
Are you saying that it has to be relevant to the decisions being faced? Do you mean to
existing decisions they are facing?

Mark Goldthorpe
Essentially, yes. You have to put it into peoples back garden.

Tania Satdsbader

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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                            8 May 2006

I think that there is also a problem with the public in the street, that for those people the
information is too negative and too abstract. They can‟t get the picture – it is too big for
them. They have the impression that they can‟t do something individually. We have to give
them information to give them the feeling that even on their own they can undertake some

Richenda Connell
Thank you very much. We will come on to talk about your work with the public in Belgium
on that in the next session.

Chitra Nadarajah
I think one of the things that we discussed previously was also the lessons we have learned
through ESPACE about some of the barriers identified with the work With this particular
one especially, that Doogie is working on, behaviour change, I think when we started
ESPACE we put awareness, behaviour change and agency all in one box and actually they are
not in one box. What we have actually realised is awareness is something quite separate to
the other things up there on the list. There are two or three different barriers, not just
one. I don‟t think we knew that three years ago. That is potentially what we are trying to
uncover here as well as some of the lessons we have learned from ESPACE that now seem
fairly obvious. It is capturing all the things we have learned because that is the process we
had to go through. We need to capture where we started and where we are now. We
have come a long way from where we started. It is also worth thinking about the barriers in
that way, trying to remember back to where we started and the awareness of the lessons
we have learned and the process to get to where you are now, and trying to articulate those
lessons so that we can capture that and not lose that.

Richenda Connell
I don‟t think it would be useful to multiply this set up to, say, 24, but it sounds like you are
saying quite strongly that you think we should separate awareness.

Reinhard Schmidtke
I think we should talk about who should be aware of what because we are very different
groups. Information is quite different for all these groups. So we have to split up that. The
public decision makers, the fact people in the groups and the public need some general
information. It is quite different. In our case studies we have seen that we have to produce
different kinds of information for how we bring the information to the people. That is very
important. Awareness is one general topic but it should be split up according to who should
be aware of what.

Bryan Boult
I would like to build on something that Chitra has just said. I think it is something hat we all
need to think about. It is very very difficult for us, but if you go back to 2003/04, which is
when we started to put the concept of ESPACE together, we were dealing and working with
a situation where quite a lot of these issues were very real barriers. One that I would give
to you is at a national level politicians were aware of the political benefits to them of maybe
talking about reducing greenhouse gases, so the mitigation agenda, but there was very little
talk about adapting to climate change. In other words, accepting that it was going to happen
and that we therefore had to change the things we were doing.

Through, in part, the work that we have been doing as individuals in our own organisations,
in our own regions, in our own countries, that situation has changed. It is very easy to take
that for granted. To think that was always there. One of the things I think we have got to
do is to think back and think, if that was a barrier when we started and it is now less of a
barrier, what has made that difference? Has it been pure information? Has it been using the

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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                         8 May 2006

4 As that Doogie has used? Any one of those awareness agency association action issues.
Has it been something that has come from within ESPACE or has it been something that has
happened outside? If so, what was it? I think this is one of the key things that we need to
start thinking about because there are still a lot of barriers in the system to us. If we could
track how we have managed to change some of the ones that we know about, that might
give us a clue to how to set about some of the others that need to be changed.

I am thinking particularly, Hans (ten Hoeve), in the area you are. When you started your
ministry was very much on its own, and yet if you just go back a couple of months, you had a
national conference where you had three Ministers and the Prime Minister at the national
conference. Something has happened. Something might be what you have done. Something
might be what other people have done. We need to track that and try to understand that,
because what has happened in Holland is different from what has happened in other
countries and it is certainly different to what is happening in other countries outside North
West Europe. If we are going to come up with some recommendations that are meaningful
across Europe, those sort of lessons are, I think, the sort of things we need to track. But it
is very very hard. I think that is maybe something for you to think about as well.

Hans ten Hoeve
To give my reaction on that, I think the push was given by three disasters. Katrina, the
tsunami and the hot summer of 2003. It is hard to influence those disasters.

Richenda Connell
It is certainly the experience of flood management in the UK. That is has always been
reactionary response.

Tim Reeder
We had a presentation on this in Wurzburg and somebody said the best time to get
messages over is to take advantage of events.

Reinhard Schmidtke
Awareness in the last few years has been triggered by a lot of extreme natural events, like
floods, droughts, storms and so on. In our case studies we have made a survey. We asked
people about their awareness. It is extremely interesting how they know about this effect of
climate change. They ask for answers – what can they do? It is a process chain from
awareness and information. A change of behaviour options, appraisal of options and so on,
and to give advice on how they can cope with the problems. That is what we have to work
out today.

John Firth
Are we splitting this first one up, so we have an awareness barrier in its own right and the
second barrier is change of leadership, that sort of thing? Are you suggesting we split them
up at this stage?

Doogie Black
It is understanding how they work together. One of the things we haven‟t really singled out
much in the discussion this morning is getting the right people together. Reinhard is
absolutely right, people who want to raise their awareness actually know what they want to
raise their awareness about. The information comes in to help them do that. In your notes
there are the four As. We will go into more detail on what that actually means.

Richenda Connell
We will pick that up in the next session.

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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                          8 May 2006

Christine Seaward
One of the things that I am interested in is in Holland who were the 3 ministries that
responded to saying it was triggered by disaster awareness, who picked up on that? Was it
as a result of what their responsibilities were and who they were as individuals? Is there
something in there that we need to tease out? And, indeed, who didn‟t that you thought
might have done.

Hans ten Hoeve
Everybody came to the conference. Everybody was there. The key factor was the Member
of Parliament who translated questions to our Minister for spatial planning and asked where
is the long term view of investments in the western part of Holland, because we know the
sea rises and more than half of our economic activities are in the western part of Holland.
When the sea rises one metre in 100 years or 5-6 metres in 6-7 years what will we do?
What no regrets investments can be made this at this moment. That is where the real
exploration of this question was. He pointed to actions at this moment. No regret actions.
That was new. It had to do with options now. That was very important.

Richenda Connell
We will move on to the next barrier now. The next one is going to take a bit of time, I
think. Some of the later ones will be a bit faster.

Lack of information, scepticism and uncertainty about climate change scenarios, impacts and
what to do about it. So that is a big bundle. The kinds of things I have picked up here from
your spreadsheets were particularly uncertainty about extreme events, maybe some
countries have good information about some climate risks but not complete coverage of the
information. We also picked up things about how the research was produced and whether
some of the programmes have decision makers working very closely with researchers and in
others the researchers are more remote. Those are the sorts of issues that we picked up
here. Would anyone like to start us off on this as a barrier and what they have learned
about this as a barrier.

Tim Reeder
I think one of the things we have learned in our particular case with the Thames Estuary, is
that a lot of it is driven by sea level rise and you can, to a certain extent, divorce the
uncertainty from preparing because you can identify where you can have the thresholds in
terms of responses which will be appropriate to certain levels of sea level rise. You could
copy that approach to other issues. We are identifying our thresholds or our tipping points.
Uncertainty, in our particular case, to sea level rises is just a question of when you are going
to get them. We don‟t know how fast it is going to go up but it is pretty certain it is not
going to go down. The same could be said, perhaps, for temperature. Sea level rise is a
pretty one way street. This is, in some ways, not an uncertain problem. It is certain. We
just don‟t know when.

Richenda Connell
So identifying thresholds is the key thing in that.

Mike Steel
The biggest thing is when we don‟t know that direction, as Tim said, whether it will be up or
down. That is the harder situation.

Richenda Connell
Direction change then. That is certainly true for the precipitation changes as well. There is
much more uncertainty about the direction of those.

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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                            8 May 2006

Mark Elliot
I think there is also a bit of confusion about exactly what we understand about climate
change and what we don‟t, amongst the general public. The hockey stick graph. which I am
using more and more, not the predictive but the measured change, is one of the most
powerful tools, I think, that we have got to demonstrate that the climate is changing. I think
there is still a lot of uncertainty in the public about whether or not climate change has been
proved, and actually the other uncertainty is whether or not it is down to humans. I think
that is one of the things that the majority of the public haven‟t separated out. They haven‟t
grasped that we know the climate is changing fast. They are not separating whether or not
it is down to humans or not. For me, coming into it fairly new, that was one of the things
that I learnt fairly quickly and saw the gap in peoples perceptions.

Richenda Connell
Hans, earlier on you asked why information was not number one on my list. Does this
mean that in your view this is the biggest barrier we face?

Hans Weber
It is important to give complete information in the framework of spatial planning for the
decision makers and also for the affected people. My understanding is it is a limited device
for getting awareness. Qualitative information is interesting but not concrete.

Richenda Connell
So it is a lack of concrete details specific to it.

Hans Weber
It is my experience that if we give people information that the climate is changing, it is
interesting what are the effects of the input for me, or for our society.

Richenda Connell
That is great. So it is information that is relevant to the scale and the decision, at the spatial
scale, and enough richness to really be useful.

Reinhard Schmidtke
Again, it is a chain, a lot of processes. We start with the global climate change then we
break it down and we reach climate change scenarios. From there we go to the hydrology,
the water budget, a special area right here. Information. Explain the change. Hydraulic
impacts. The physical impact for the land users. We assess the impacts. Economic terms,
ecological terms, social, cultural. That way we talk about options. Again we do a cost-
benefit analysis. Then we have a set of information for decision making and adapting to
climate change. If you talk about information, on what level? And all this stuff, combined
with uncertainties. We have to learn to live with this uncertainty. The world is not
determined, it is a dynamic process. We are running very fast at the moment. We should
split this and say, okay, on which level do we need which information and for who?
Information needs are quite different. That is what is not done at the moment on this trans-
national level. A systematic approach of who needs what information on what level and so
on. It would be a good idea to try to figure it out.

Hans Weber
Another point of view is the difference between the UK and Germany, for example. If I
regard English institutions, according to the information I receive in ESPACE I think there
are many activities in the UK, but it is not the same in our country at the moment. It is
perhaps the difference between your point of view and our point of view. For us, as

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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                         8 May 2006

Reinhard pointed out, to give concrete information to the people, and perhaps in the UK
the information is only disseminated in the last year.

Richenda Connell
We haven‟t got all the information in the UK, by any means. We have got a lot of
partnerships and a lot of engagement, but we haven‟t got all the answers. But I appreciate
what you are saying, that maybe there are different scales of information.

Bryan Boult
I think the point that Hans has made is an interesting one, again something to reflect on.
This area of Germany is not the only area having to deal with these impacts. We know that
other areas of Germany are suffering from floods that are causing immense economic
damage and immense cultural damage. Those areas have water engineers that presumably
are as good as you – they have been trained to the same standard, they read the same
journals. So presumably they are aware of the same issues that you are. They are not
taking this approach that you are all taking of building climate change into your models and
into your work plans. That, I think, brings us back to the first thing we were looking at –
what are the barriers that you have overcome within your system, the politicians at your
Ministry or whoever, that enables you to take this issue seriously that your colleagues in
other parts of Germany have not been able to come to. What are those barriers?

Reinhard Schmidtke
You are right, Bryan, in Germany we have a sister programme called KLIWA Climate
Change and Work Management and two Ministers from Bavaria and one from Baden
Wattenberg agreed their co-operation. They did a lot of modelling in the programme, and it
is still running. Our strategy is action orientated and we asked „what can we do at the
moment?‟. Tomorrow at the site visit it will be explained that climate change is
incorporated into our flood protection planning now with precautionary factors and we
know all the uncertainties. After experiencing freak events we built new structures without
taking into account climate change. That is not best practice. I think we have to explain
that, that we have to implement these components in our structural planning.

David Payne
I think that is a key point. I was talking to John last night about the Water Framework
Directive and the fact that climate change isn‟t featuring in the characterisation and the work
we are doing with the Environment Agency on water resources. We are building into this
into that, hey are only scenarios. They are not specific, they are an assumption about what
might become worse in the future. It is making sure that whatever you do it is built in. It is
new, it is obvious to do it, but it has not been done. As John was saying, the Water
Framework Directive isn‟t building it in but it is going to be a major factor affecting river
quality, the quality of water. It is missing at the moment. What we have done is try to build
in climate change assumptions into the other scenario work we are doing.

Richenda Connell
That is why there is a direct link, as you were saying, between the research and the policy
making process.

David Payne
Yes. Sometimes it is a bit indirect. On flood defences it has been taken into account for a
long time but on water resources and water quality it hasn‟t. We say we haven‟t got flood
defence but when you actually look at the nitty gritty, building it into the scenarios is the
first thing we need to do.

Richenda Connell

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I would like to move on if I may. We are slightly behind time.

The third barrier that we have identified is legislation. For reducing greenhouse gas
emissions, there are many targets, training schemes and all the rest of it, but actually with
adaptation there is a lack of targets, a lack of standards, a lack of legislation and maybe even
a lack of fiscal measures- things that make you do this. Could you tell me how much of a
barrier you think that is. Which particular kind of things have really slowed the progress up
on this.

David Payne
The whole culture in Britain is targets. They give you the direction you want to move in,
which is the important thing. Not just in environment, but education, health and everything
else. We are a target driven society and sometimes it doesn‟t lead to the results that we
are targeting.

Fran Wallington
Targets don‟t always translate. One target doesn‟t fit all. You might have a target for
something that will work for one area in the south east but won‟t work on different areas.

Tim Reeder
I think the other point is, what I am trying to do is take us through different storylines into
the future and you have to get over this issue of being driven by current legislation when
you are doing 100 year planning. Because we seem to be, particularly in the UK, we are
finding it very difficult to avoid being driven by the current legislation which may be totally
inappropriate in 60 years time.

Richenda Connell
So it is not just lack of legislation, it is actually the wrong legislation

Tim Reeder
Or doing a sensitivity test, saying if we weren‟t driven by this but if were driven by
something more sensible what would we do?

Mark Elliot
Not necessarily being driven by legislation, but working within legislation. The Water
Framework Directive is a classic example. It doesn‟t allow us the flexibility to manage water
in a more sustainable way.

Tim Reeder
That is what I am saying. The existing targets and standards are not adapted.

Reinhard Schmidtke
Setting targets is a problem, and coping with uncertainty. Because we don‟t know what will
happen and if you could have some targets that are maybe too low or too high. The lack of
standards and regulations, how to find the best practice with optimum information available
now. For example, in Bavaria we have the regulations to take that into account. They say,
okay then we will optimise our protection measures, using economic factors like net present
value. I don‟t know if you know of this. Defra uses the same thing. But you have to include
climate change and then find the optimum design. For example, that is a way I think we can
cope with climate change in different areas of activities. Not setting targets. We need
regulations on how to proceed.

Richenda Connell
We want standards, not legislation.

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Fran Wallington
I think a difficulty is, if we are looking at adapting spatial planning, where spatial planning fits
in with the wider framework, such as the Water Framework Directive, the spatial planning
system is constrained whereas when we went to Belgium and spoke to you the planning
system came first (or was it the water, have I got it the right way round) but what comes
first? We have to fit everything we are doing in with these other blocks and that might stop
us having a better adapted spatial planning system.

John Firth
When I have been talking to businesses, and also I went to a major conference that the UK
Government organised last year about business and climate change, it had all the Chief
Executives and MPs there, it was very focussed on mitigation. The one thing every business
leader said was, we don‟t mind legislation and we don‟t mind targets, but we think you are
going to have to tell us what they are. If you tell us what the target is then everybody
knows what they have got to do. At the moment we don‟t know what to do. We know it
is an issue but we don‟t actually know what to do. If you set us a target we will go away and
do it. There is almost a different sort of feeling to target setting from business because as
long as everybody knew what they should be doing, there was no competitive disadvantage.

Jill Rankin
Can I put in a suggestion that the targets and standards that you are talking about shouldn‟t
be static, but instead should be allowed to be flexible with the changing climate as it
progresses and as we get better information on ways of adapting so we can build them into
the process.

Tim Reeder
If there was a directive saying that we all prepare national spatial plans against set European
scenarios going from small change to major change, maybe that would be a more sensible
directive than the Habitats Directive which is just trying to preserve the present.

Eric Kuindersma
To reflect on the flexible target my fear is that one should go in one direction which is
flexible but then in 2 or 3 years it should go in another direction. I think that is not good.

Richenda Connell
So flexible targets, you think, create uncertainty.

Eric Kuindersma
It could be. When you choose a direction or you think you have to go in a direction then
that is good to have flexible targets to make sure people can work on it. I think it is fairly
important, one way or another, when the direction is not clear that it is not easy to set
targets but you can have no regret decisions or measures that you take now.

Tim Reeder
Later on I am going to talk about some work we are doing on decision trees, which might be
worth mentioning now as it tries to allow for different future storylines depending on how
fast things are going, and identifying when you need to know about the thresholds you are
aware of now even though you may not put anything into practice until some time in the
future. I think that might be quite useful to keep in mind.

Hans Weber
I have a question for better understanding. What is the difference between targets and
written standards?

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Richenda Connell
Not a great deal. A target will be an ambition, let‟s say the British Government has set a
target that if you go into hospital you don‟t sit on a trolley in a corridor for more than 10
hours before a doctor sees you, so it is like an ambition and everyone tries to work towards
it. A standard is a bit harder but very similar.

John Firth
A standard is what you try to achieve as a minimum, a target is what you would like to

Mark Goldthorpe
The way I see it, a standard is a level of quality which is regarded to be desirable and target
is, for example, 95% of people to reach that level.

Richenda Connell
We will move on to the next barrier. This is a small one. I didn‟t pick this up from your
spreadsheets but I picked it up from one of the first pieces of work the LUC consultants did
for ESPACE where they talked about fiscal disincentives like subsidies that are working in the
wrong direction for adaptation. That was one of the things they picked up. Fiscal
disincentives. I hope that is clear. Has anyone had any experience of this as a barrier, or is
it just in the LUC report.

Bryan Boult
I think some of these are possibly European level. The old Life-Nature programme which
invested quite considerable sums of money in relative terms into management of nature
conservation was designed very much to fix nature conservation as it is, and not as it will be.
It was about fixing nature conservation systems and nature systems in places they are now.
A lot of money is going into that. The regional funds, structural funds, which are an
enormous European programme, none of those funds have any explicit mention of climate
change in them. As a result, there is subsidy from the European Union into large areas of
greenhouse gas producing activities and to mitigation. Also, because there is no explicit
connection to climate change, there is no promotion of change in infrastructure investment
to take account of climate change and therefore it is acting against efforts to adapt those
infrastructures to climate change.

Fran Wallington
Could this issue be turned around as well? You put „eg subsidies‟ but is there an incentive to
do that?

David Payne
The water industry for example. There is no incentive to be more efficient.

Fran Wallington
So at the moment it pays not to bother.

Mark Elliot
In the UK, because it is in the best interest of the water companies to have as many
customers as possible, potentially if they have got meters using as much water as possible
then that could be in the future a fiscal disincentive, because of privatised water companies.
That doesn‟t necessarily apply across Europe. If we have a large proportion of the
population with water meters, the water companies then make more money the more

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water people use. There is a direct fiscal incentive for them to promote water use. That is
already starting to become an issue and if we are promoting increased use of water meters.

Richenda Connell
It is interesting. I know that energy companies in the UK are having to make a very strong
statement about energy efficiency. You listen and you think, obviously they are having to do
themselves out of business. So whether there will be the same pressures on the water
industry I don‟t know. I appreciate what you are saying. The more you use the more
money they get.

David Payne
You can use as much as you want and you pay the same rate. Which be cannot an incentive
for water efficiency.

Jill Rankin
Were you talking about taxes as well? I remember at the last workshop somebody was
talking about his experience with taxes on fuels not related to climate change. That actually
wasn‟t working. No matter how much they put the price up people were prepared to pay
the extra.

Richenda Connell
So it has got to bite before people will react. It has got to be painful. We are seeing that in
America with fuel. People are starting to think about getting in their cars in a way that they
never used to.

Eric Kuindersma
On the other hand, if there is less use of electricity then the prices go up because all the
costs must be paid. So people are paying the same for less use.

Richenda Connell
So if you make a resource very expensive, the provider of that resource still has to give the
same service.

Eric Kuindersma
And it must be paid for.

David Payne
The regulation of the water industry is about basically keeping the costs down which is not
necessarily going to give an investment adapted to climate change and improving the

Doogie Black
This has direct links to behaviour change work again. The point raised there about the fuel in
the UK. There was a lot of protest as soon as they tried to raise the price of fuel. Fuel is a
lot cheaper now, in terms of income, than it ever was in the past (except the past decade or
so). People won‟t accept that level of change. It was forced upon them. We have to pay
close attention to fiscal changes being accepted socially.

Richenda Connell
Shall we move on to the next one? This next point is about the acceptability of adaptation
measures. Attitudes to adaptation measures. Some of the things we were picking up here
were, let‟s say, in Antwerp the Sigma plan is going to mean that agricultural land has to be
given up, and the acceptability of this to the farmers, their view of what is being forced upon
them. Maybe it is also about the cost of adaptation measures, the perceived costs or

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uncertainty about the costs - it all sounds very scary and we can‟t spend any more money.
Is this something you have heard coming up a lot?

Fran Wallington
Going back to what Eric was saying about uncertainty, if we are going to say these are the
adaptation measures we need to take, and then the information changes and you are going in
different directions, and people want to stick with one because it is a safe bet, a good
investment. If you are just going to do adaptation based on flexible scenarios, a very easy
one is – for farmers, you have got to change your crops, so they change their crops and four
years later it is an inappropriate crop so they have to change again.

Richenda Connell
So you are going to lose credibility with people, and they will get fed up with it

Jill Rankin
Also, it depends how long this change goes on, 10-20 years.

Tim Yair
This is something that has already been dealt with by all businesses. They all have to look at
their future markets. It is just using them over the existing business protocols, putting
climate change into it. Which is probably more certain than a lot of the business markets
are anyway. So it shouldn‟t be too difficult, theoretically.

Chitra Nadarajah
I am sure your point is something that everyone has noticed. For some reason, uncertainty
about climate change is a much bigger issue than uncertainty about anything else we deal
with. That is a major barrier. We don‟t have all the information, we don‟t have all the
answers, there might be changes. But that is the scenario with anything. Why is it that
climate change is so different to everything else?

Jill Rankin
A lot of companies are taking out weather derivatives, which is like an insurance policy
against changing weather for different seasons.

Reinhard Schmidtke
I have two points. One is on spatial planning. We have different programmes, like making
space for the rivers, our integrated riverbed management and so we look to science for
retention and to improve the corridor of the rivers, and we have an agricultural group and
they would like to use the land as they did before, so there are various conflicts to be
resolved. We have to analyse these conflicts and use conflict management. The next point
who pays for the measures and who benefits? Also, the distribution of the financial load.

Richenda Connell
Who are these freeloaders that you have, do you think?

Reinhard Schmidtke
Firstly, the affected groups in flood protection. They don‟t pay for all the public
infrastructure. The state. Or the provinces. The communities. But not the affected
people. We have to have a change. We need awareness. How they benefit from the
measures and who will have to pay for the measures.

Bryan Boult
Are you saying that people are protected from the results of their decisions? That they
decide to live in a flood area, or they decide to build a factory in a flood area, and because

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the state will always build a protection, that they are protected from that. Is that what you
are saying?

Reinhard Schmidtke

Bryan Boult
So you are saying that is a bad thing. Do you think that politicians and the public generally
could be persuaded to accept that people bear their own risks, which is I think what you are
leading to. Is that what you are saying?

Reinhard Schmidtke
Not the whole risk. Not to persuade but to convince people. It is a complicated process
we do at the moment to show what options are available, what are the costs, what are the
benefits, who benefits from different measures, regional measures, local measures. Then we
can discuss using the figures from the benefits and say, okay who pays what? At the moment
the affected people don‟t pay anything. That has another problem combined with it. They
have no awareness of their risk. The value in these flood endangered areas grows and
grows and grows and this effect may be stronger than climate change at the moment. I will
show you a graph tomorrow. We need to take another direction so that people don‟t build
up these areas in the way they do it now.

Mark Elliot
Taking that one step further, we then have to look at whether or not we want a
compensation scheme to help people adapt. So that rather than people taking risks in
building on or developing in a flood plain and expecting the state to at least defend them, if
the state then makes the decision that we want to allow the sea into an area, or the sea
takes a certain area back, there is no compensation scheme in the UK to allow that
adaptation. Whether or not that is the case across Europe I don‟t know. I think those two
points are completely dovetailed together.

Richenda Connell
It seems to me there has to be a distinction made between people who have been there for
ages and weren‟t aware that things have changed and the new people that come in.

Fran Wallington
The change has been going on forever hasn‟t it. Climate change is rapid and quick, but we
have always had change and live I a dynamic world. Maybe people hundreds of years ago
didn‟t, but they aren‟t here any more. We have got enough knowledge. People learned at
school 50 years ago about it. The south end of the district where I work is coastal and the
north end is inland. If you look at raising Council Tax because the Council have to bear the
cost of coastal protection then the people in the north end of the district are not willing to
pay for that cost whereas the people in the south end would pay a bit more Council Tax.
So its that fair sharing. But the people in the north of the district might not recognise the
economic protection that is being afforded by the coastal defence which is benefiting the
whole district. Its about making the linkages and goes back again to understanding.

Hans ten Hoeve
We were discussing the remark that people who are there for a long period are aware of
the effects of dynamic environment, and the new people aren‟t. That is the problem,
because they expect to be protected. We don‟t. We now have a directive stating that your
existence there is at your own risk.

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Fran Wallington
What about social housing for people on a lower income scale.

Eric Kuindersma
Flood plains there is no discussion – if you build a house there it is your problem. People
centuries ago were aware of all the problems and built houses on high ends. Because of all
new housing etc the Government said we will build dykes and protect you from flooding. So
people are protected, and now we are talking about the risk of flooding. It is something
different. I moved to an area where 15 years ago I didn‟t know the existence of the water
board and that the area couldn‟t be flooded and now, after 1995, they are aware. People
want the areas protected until a certain level. But that level hasn‟t existed yet so they rely
on that. Now they must be more aware of the problem, and if something is happening, who
is paying for that? Because we are told that we are going to live there, and we are paying
our taxes towards it and the National Government is paying for dykes too. If something
goes wrong who is going to pay for our damage? It is not possible to insure it. That is also a
kind of awareness, and adaptation.

Richenda Connell
Thank you. We will move on.

The next two we have separated because they seem to be different things, but in fact they
are both about institutional arrangements. One of them is general institutional
arrangements like joined up Government, maybe gaps between professions, gaps between
planners and water managers, whether a country has a spatial planning system at all. These
kinds of general features. Whether the planning systems are so complex that nobody
understands who is meant to be talking to who.

Then the second point we have is really about institutional arrangements specifically on
climate change, which we saw as being about the commitment within Governments to
actually do something about it, whether climate change is already built into institutional

We could treat these separately or we could just take them in one go and take general
comments. Shall I say, lets take them in one go and take up general points about it? I am
sure this is one of the biggest things that, on a daily basis, makes a difference to your lives in
terms of trying to deal with climate change, so I am hoping we will have some rich discussion
on this and what you see as barriers.

David Payne
In our area the Thames Gateway illustrates this where we do effectively have a national
spatial plan which says there is going to be a lot of development in the Thames Gateway,
which is a national decision. It affects the region. It affects the Thames Estuary. Not just
the gradual sea level rise, but the tidal surge effect. It is going to be most dramatic in an area
which is economically deprived and has been targeted for a lot of regeneration. So you have
got more conflict, potentially, of economic and social development in an area which is
probably the worst in the region, at the highest risk of increased flooding. That is a national
political decision that has to be implemented regionally and locally.

When the region is trying to tell the national level what they think about it, are they listened
to do you think?

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David Payne
Regionally there is an awareness of flood risk area but the environment agency are saying it
is manageable. It goes back to what Eric said. People are told they are protected, but they
are only protected to a certain standard. It is a very high standard, but if you get a tidal
surge and the barrier is not replaced on time, it is high risk actually.

Bryan Boult
That picks up the point that Reinhard was making, that that is possibly an acceptable balance
of risk and exposure at the moment, but if you are investing many billions of pounds into
new economic activity, new housing and everything else, the exposure to the risk has gone
up dramatically. So the risk has gone up and exposure has gone up as well. The system is
not clever at the moment at looking at both the increased risk and increased exposure.

Tim Reeder
We have inherited a national decision that is probably not the best strategically, but on the
other hand we have got London sitting slap bang in the middle of a flood plain. So the other
way of looking at it is that you need to do a lot to protect London so putting the Thames
Gateway there is putting all your eggs in one basket. Is it efficient in a way? Having said that
we have inherited that decision, our institutional arrangements are gradually getting their
heads around it now. Strategically it is still probably not the right thing to do in the long
term. But then parts of the whole UK coast and other low lying parts of Europe, and that is
a big issue which we need to get to grips with.

Mark Elliot
There is a culture in the UK of saying that these risks are manageable. The way that the
response on the South East Plan for the additional housing in the south east has been
reacted to, has been very much, we can build the necessary infrastructure to deliver the
necessary water. We are saying it is something that we can manage. Are those decisions
taking into account climate change? Is it something that the environment agency could say
to their lords and masters, no we don‟t think these are manageable.

Tim Reeder
The view politically at the moment is there is absolutely no way we can go against the
Thames Gateway. So what are we gong to do in the longer term because of sea level rise
trend? By that I mean longer than 100 years. The answer was that the mining villages in the
UK disappeared economically within about 5-6 years, in the future the Thames Gateway may
seem to be a temporary phenomenon. There is absolutely no way we can politically get
ourselves to say that at the moment. That is backed up by the fact that you have got
London there.

Fran Wallington
Does that mean the institutional attitudes to climate change are that it is an environmental
issue and in our past experience we have always fixed environmental problems with
technological solutions, so therefore we still have time to deal with it. They are not actually
accepting that climate change is a social and economical issue. Because it was the economic
issue that brought the Dutch round to climate change. It is still very much packaged in an
environmental box which we can fix with technological solutions.

John Firth
That is certainly something I say when we go round talking to people. We never ever say
climate change is an environment issue. There is nothing in this literature. I don‟t think we
even mention the word environment. We talk about being social, business and an economic

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issue. That is how it manifests itself. It might be an environmental issue in terms of it is the
environment changing but that is not how it impacts.

Richenda Connell
By being in that environmental box does it also mean that it is something that is nice to have
but not an essential. Do you think it has the gravitas and the weight?

Christine Seaward
I think that is a fundamental thing that has changed in the last few years for the people who
have been thinking about it, is the relationship between the environmental issues and the
economic issues. I am thinking particularly of the energy budget. We are thinking of all
these big technological infrastructure projects that we can do but they are actually reliant on
the healthy energy budget. I don‟t know whether any of the work that we are doing,
whether there is any other work that brings the issues together to look at the assumption
that underlines „we can do this‟ because there will be sufficient energy to support the
implementation of a big technological projects. It is an assumption that I don‟t think anyone
has looked at.

David Payne
If you are looking at water supply it is an issue. Desalination – we have an issue in London
where a desalination plant is actually going to use a fraction of the energy that a Middle East
desalination plant would use. But still the mayor is saying that‟s too much energy. Then the
reservoirs. The reservoirs are being designed using vast amounts of energy, they storage of
rainfall, which leads to adaptation. The water will be fed back into the river for the summer
to be extracted from the river. It is climate change adaptation. It is a good solution.

Mark Goldthorpe
Are the regulators joined up on that? Because it is part of the institutional arrangement, the
environment agency regulate one aspect and OFWAT another aspect.

John Firth
The classic example of that is the OFWAT service in the UK for England until this last year,
didn‟t have a sustainable duties so it could make decisions and that completely ignore the
concept of sustainability, which it did. Only now has it got that duty. You can see what
OFWAT has just produced. It is trying very hard to avoid the issue and push it to one side.
I think that is a major challenge. It is because of that we have ended up with some finance
decisions which are not really what we want.

Mike Steel
Talking to emergency planners, planning considering effects of climate change and increased
risks, if they worked more closely with the planners sometimes then the planners would see
how much extra work this is given.

Richenda Connell
Emergency planners and planners.

Reinhard Schmidtke
What we need is integrated approaches in spatial planning that works well on the strategic
level. We have national level plans, we have state plans. All the institutions agree with the
strategic ideas. Then we come down to the operative level. Then the problems start. We
have institutions which look at their objectives and their budgets. Different people, different
attitudes. What we need is a better co-operation between the task of having an integrated
planning system and split responsibilities. Who develops information for improving the
awareness of the affected people groups. We can prepare the information but we don‟t

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distribute it in a way that is very efficient. So we need this organisation, and the friction
starts. That is a very important point, because climate change is everywhere.

Richenda Connell
It needs to be in every institution, everyone.

Reinhard Schmidtke
Yes. One institution who manages this. Not to collect all the responsibilities in one

John Firth
Important to set targets across organisations not just going down the scale

Richenda Connell
The very final one we have then, is one that David covered quickly for us at the beginning,
the short-termism in thinking. People having a short term outlook, particularly politicians,
and therefore being prevented from thinking on the long term, or being unwilling to think in
the long term. Would anyone like to make a couple of points on that? Does it come across
as a big thing that is messing things up?

Doogie Black
What is coming across as an issue, taking different time dimensions into decision making
where you may look at the different points and make sure you are checking back and
reflecting what you are doing. Certainly, since the beginning of the project I have not heard
anybody stop mentioning short-termism as an issue.

Richenda Connell
Is it so simple that we don‟t even need to discuss it?

Reinhard Schmidtke
What we need is a long term view of sustainable development. Then we can implement our
short term activities in this view. What we have to do is develop strategies that look at the
long term sustainable development. It is not short term versus long term, it is the
combination, long term view – short term delivery.

Bryan Boult
We need to be clearer about what we mean when we talk about short term and long term.
Because those words have different meanings for different people. From my professional
background when I talk about long term, I am thinking something like 100 years. In my
professional background I am used to dealing with plans that go over 2 or 3 decades. That
to me is not that long a term. For someone who is in a different profession, long term is 10
years. So that is the first thing. We have to be very clear what we are saying when we say
short or long term.

The second thing is that, building on the comments that Hans and Tim were making, I want
to pick up on this politician who asked the question, let‟s just say that the answer to his
question was, actually you are right, in 100 years Rotterdam will not exist. Our long term
view is that we need to replace Rotterdam somewhere else because the economic health of
the Netherlands depends on keeping that level of activity in the Netherlands. We can‟t
afford to see that go somewhere else. That is our long term vision. What interests me is,
ok we might accept that, but how do you get from today to there? Because you need to
continue to invest in the short term. Maybe 25-50 years. Because there are so many people
living there. Because there are activities there. It is the same argument Tim is using – that

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London exists. You cannot just immediately say we will rebuild London in Scotland. You
cannot do that.

Those are extreme examples. London is an extreme example. Rotterdam is an extreme
example. But actually some of the case studies we are looking at on a smaller scale are
dealing with those very issues. At what stage do you say that we are working towards the
long term vision and at what stage do you say in the short term we keep on investing,
perhaps where people and jobs are. I don‟t think we have got the answers, but I think we
need to be aware that those are very good questions that we will need to address. They are
all bound up in those concepts of short, medium and long term.

Mark Elliot
The issue is that if you don‟t address those long term issues in the short term, then those
issues are addressed for you in a catastrophic event, and so really what we are trying to do,
if we are talking about somewhere like London (not that we are going to move London) is if
you are really saying that in the long term this city won‟t exist in this place, if you are not
physically going to move it in a phased way you are just going to have to wait until the big
storm hits and then you pick up the pieces and rebuild somewhere else. So there is a direct
conflict between the two approaches.

Hans ten Hoeve
There is a conflict. Because when you use the long term view that you have to move
Rotterdam, that is suicide. Nobody accepts that. It is impossible to think of and leads us to
adaptation in the Rotterdam situation. What can we do? What can we adapt to the change
in climate? That is on the political and social level, but on the other hand one of the
warnings we have got that something was happening is that the great investors already had
those scenarios for themselves. In a simple way, you cannot work with short term, mid
term and long term views, because it will not work in a complex situation.

Reinhard Schmidtke
Investors must know what is the long term view in spatial planning and the exposure to
risks. That is the information, and then they can decide, that is for the next 20 years and
then I move to the eastern part. That is a question they have to be aware of, future risks.
Then they can calculate the cost benefits and so on or I move. That is what we have to do.
That is an issue of spatial planning and climate change. To bring this information to the
decision makers, the private and public decision makers.

Hans ten Hoeve
We also have to know that in spatial planning 90% will still be the same in 200, 300, 400
years. Only a small amount changes. What is the material we have to adapt.

Richenda Connell
I am going to draw things to a close there. We have run over by about 12 minutes.

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                                                                                   SESSION 2

Richenda Connell
Thank you for coming back. We start this next session now, and we continue until 12.30
when we have lunch.

Another point before we start. We are not all first language English speakers so there are
two points. The first is, when people make comments if they can speak clearly. Second, if
other people are having problems understanding then please put your hand up and say
„clarify‟ „stop‟. So this is the way we should do it rather than everybody getting in a bit of a
jumble. If we can try and do that a bit better this time that would be great.

What we are going to do in this next session, and in some of the session immediately after
lunch, is discuss the barriers in this order that they got the votes in. Everybody put a dot
against the things they thought they had a contribution on.

The first thing everybody thought they had something to say about – acceptability of
adaptation measures. Then we had a group of things which all had the same number of
votes, which was about the Four As, as I have put it, which everybody understands. The
next point was availability of information about climate change leading up to adaptation. The
next point was institutional arrangements. What I have done is put together institutional
arrangements generally with institutional arrangement s on climate change. So we deal with
that in one go. Then we have short termism. Targets and standards. Nobody voted for
fiscal disincentives, so we won‟t discuss that further today.

We have six issues. We have about 20 minutes per issue for discussion so we need to be
focussed on making very good, clear, short points. That will be really helpful to keep things
moving along and give everybody a chance to contribute.

Really importantly, I am hoping some of you are going to be confident enough to say, this
point I am making is so important that it is a piece of the jigsaw. It is something I know we
must have in the strategy or guidance. Throughout this session I want us to pick these up.
After we discuss each issue, if nobody has offered any pieces of the jigsaw, then I will say,
what pieces of the jigsaw does this offer.

I think that is all I wanted to say at this point. The other thing I would say is that we have
been through your spreadsheets and we have tried to identify where we think your work
contributes to these things so we will be referring to our notes so hopefully we can
encourage some of these things to come out. We have got something like 100 points we
have identified from your work as contributing to this and I think if we pick up even half of
those we will have made a good achievement.

It is now 11.20 and for the next 20 minutes we would like to talk about acceptability of
adaptation measures.

Everybody knows we have recording equipment, so we are not going to write down every
single thing but we are going to capture some of the main points you make on the flipcharts.

What we want from you now then, is we have identified this barrier, we have discussed our
understanding of this barrier and now we want you to say, I have done this that helps to

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overcome that barrier. What work have I done that contributes. If we can start off. (I
have got my notes if anyone gets stuck.) I would like WSRL to start us off. Eric, I will give
you a prompt. In your spreadsheet you talked about your communication tool which
helped stakeholders discuss where water storage areas should be located. Was that talking
about what measures are acceptable?

Eric Kuindersma
It makes it more acceptable, because the Government says when we talk about water
storage we need some storage areas, there must be a place to store the water. In our
sessions, especially with the agricultural stakeholders, we discussed what the possibilities of
the storage could be. 5-6 years ago we would have decided where those areas were without
any communications. Now what we did in this case is that we decided this together. The
outcome was that it was a common statement from all parts so we could all live with that.
The farmers said „yes‟. They agreed. Not only the farmers but all people living in that area.
If you agree with that on paper it is ok for everybody but when we come in 5 or 6 years and
undertake the measures we agreed upon we don‟t know what is happening. That is
something we have to deal with then.

Richenda Connell
So now they don‟t quite believe you will absolutely do it.

Eric Kuindersma
I think they believe, but the impacts, in reality is clouded. It is something new so you can
only see it with your eyes if it is happening. The way we are working with the target groups
now is, I think, something new. We can discuss and agree upon certain things which in the
past were not possible.

Fran Wallington
Can I build on that? The acceptability of adaptation comes from engaging the people who
make the decisions about what adaptation is appropriate and relevant to the areas, and
making sure it is in the right place. So you gain acceptance. But by engaging the people in
that process of discussion you are also educating them about the problems and issues you
have. I say that because, basically, that is what my job has been doing in terms of engaging
communities and decision makers in the same room to look forward and make decisions
about adaptation.

Eric Kuindersma
On the other hand, what is happening, when you talk about adaptation strategies, when you
have things in strategic values etc, people say something must be done. But now it has
become more about themselves because they have become part of the decision making
process. That is very important.

Richenda Connell
So this process of developing the answer together is a much easier way for people to
swallow unacceptable measures than being told, we have made this decision.

Eric Kuindersma
It is not for people. As a citizen I think the same way. It is the municipality that has the
problem. It is not my problem. But they are part of the process.

Fran Wallington
It is sharing the responsibility between the actual communities and the bottom line of people
as individuals. Sharing that responsibility for making adaptation successful. I think its about
the engagement, again, it is not acceptable, they don‟t want it. By talking to them you are

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educating. They don‟t want things that they don‟t understand and don‟t know about. But it
is an educational process as well as a consultation.

Eric Kuindersma
They know that something must be done. In that area we search for water storage. That
area is 400 hectares big and we only need 10 hectares for example. Well, which 10 will you
choose? If you reduce the amount of hectares to 50 for those people who are in those 50
hectares for the search area it is not so nice – what is happening? But for the others, they
also know what is happening with their areas.

Is that the sort of thing you can imagine happening for all of these decisions, or is it very
time consuming and therefore difficult to implement in a very widespread way.

Eric Kuindersma
In my opinion, if you work as a governments, you have to deal with the interest of the
people who are living in your area. You can say, well this is the best for you, but then you
have to translate it for the people who are living in the area. If all the target groups want a
different direction then you have a problem in communication because you think, with all
your experts, that something has to be done but if it is not revealed in peoples minds. You
can say to the people you are thinking in the wrong way because you aren‟t thinking our
way. That can only work once I think, then you have to come back to the people because
they don‟t trust you any more. It is also a case of trust.

Mark Goldthorpe
I think as well as the actual measures, it is about acceptability of the framework in which
those measures are taken. For example, one of the things the South East Climate Change
Partnership was able to do in assisting the Regional Assembly in the South East was devising
a set of climate change principles which then informed the spatial strategy for the South East
Plan. A set of, I think, 10 principles for climate change application and mitigation for spatial
planning. They were adopted into the crosscutting policy that the assembly then adopted.
So that provides framework. The question of how acceptable the framework is to the
different communities in the south east is under discussion at the moment. But once the
framework is set then the discussion on what methods are adopted has a different starting

David Payne
We don‟t necessarily have all the information coming back to us.

Eric Kuindersma
Do we need all the information?

David Payne

Eric Kuindersma
It could be in the minds of the stakeholders. Don‟t think for them but make them part of
the thinking process. think in your minds, as an organisation, as a government, you have to
keep in mind the direction you want to go.

Bryan Boult
You have used „engaged‟, you have used „educate‟ both of you. An English word that has
come in is „empower‟ (another „e‟) to enable people to make decisions themselves. That

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was very much the concept, I think, that Reinhard was talking about with stakeholders. If
you give them the facts, especially those who are making investments, they can make the
decision on the basis of their analysis of risks and so forth. Presumably, as well, they can
make the decision about whether the measures that you are proposing are acceptable to
them in terms of their assessment of what that means for their risks. I think there is a link
there with what you were saying as well, which hasn‟t been made explicit in the case study,
but I think is there as we begin to look at it in these terms.

John Firth
Can I ask Doogie, we have talked about educate, engage and empower – do they have
similarities to your Four As.

Doogie Black
Yes, absolutely. The empowerment and trust that was mentioned as well. They come out
in association where people act together to come up with ideas. The information that
empowers them is an awareness level that is necessary. They get introduced at a pace that
becomes natural. People actually start asking for the information which means you can
identify who needs which information and put it in. Eric was talking about a visualisation tool
they have being developed. It all fits in to communication and working together.

John Firth
One thing I have got here, Eric was talking about taking people together, working with the
community, becoming part of decision making. When I was at Southern Trent Water we
looked at communications about big schemes like should we build a new reservoir and
what the public think. A traditional Southern Trent Water director attitude was, well tell
them we are going to do it and just do it. Lack of communication. And we coined a phrase
„DAD‟ - Decide, Announce, Defend. Previously, we decided what we were going to do, we
announced it, called that communications and just entrenched and defended ourselves. That
strikes me as not the way, and is exactly the opposite to what you are saying which is that’s
the wrong way. The right way is, perhaps, having a clear idea of what the principles are, and
then work with the community.

Eric Kuindersma
But in the end you need environmental planning, spatial planning. You have to point out the
location. You have to defend. That is the stage which is always coming with spatial planning.
I think that defending your ideas is easier if you do the other thing first. Because people are
aware of what is happening.

Reinhard Schmidtke
I think we have to distinguish two different situations for acceptance of measures. The first
is, the existing situation is not satisfactory. We have to do something without including
aspects of climate change. Then it is easy to include climate change aspects in such a
planning process. The other thing is that people are satisfied, because the decision makers
are satisfied with the exiting situation. Then you come with a separate issue. Isolate it.
Now we have to adapt the system to climate change. There is a risk that the people are not
experienced in their daily lives to that risk. It is an uncertainty for the future. Therefore we
have problems of acceptance. Because they think, let‟s wait and see what our measurement
and gauging stations and long time series. There is a special situation at the moment in
Austria. They said, let‟s see and wait. They improved the existing situation with a lot of
money at the moment, but they don‟t include the effect of climate change. Lack of risk
awareness. I find it is easy to implement it when we have planning without climate change.
That is the procedure now in my area. When we do the planning then we will include that.
But we don‟t do the planning in water resource management, only for climate change

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Richenda Connell
So you build it into the existing routine.

Reinhard Schmidtke
Yes that‟s right. Another point is the conflicts. Acceptance is always there when you benefit
from a measure and it is free of cost. The problems start with the conflict. You don‟t
benefit and you have to pay is the worst case. You benefit to a certain part and you have
also this cost. So it is a triangle. There are the options, the actors and the cost-sharing
system. These three are responsible for the possibilities and for real world solutions o the

Richenda Connell
There is something else I wanted to pick up from the LFW work, from the spreadsheets.
We have a point here that the second case study stopped because of concerns that adding
climate change would hamper an already difficult process of decision making. I wonder if
you could tell us a bit more about that.

Hans Weber
We wanted to realise two case studies, finally in the process it was to the end of the year
2004 our Ministry thought it is not a good case study for these problems, but there were
local political conflict situations and we were forced to stop this case study and we switched
to the other one and now our focal point is Fränkische Saale. We continue and we will see
how the problems will develop. Also, in this other case study, there is also the problem of
the impacts of climate change. We will, in any case, set our experience and our modelling
results for our colleagues which are about to realise them for the process.

Richenda Connell
So the problems that stopped it – it wouldn‟t be useful for us to discuss those? They won‟t
give us an understanding of the problems we face in real life in these political difficulties?

Reinhard Schmidtke
A general problem is a general problem in other countries too. We have fixed standards.
For example, a 100 year design flood. So the path includes a cost- benefit analysis to show
that such a project is economically sound. Then we come along with our model instruments
and we implement climate change and then maybe the result is, when we do some cost-
benefit analysis that we show that such a project, including the climate change effects, is not
economically sound. Then the Ministry has some problems. They will do the work but they
can‟t do it to that extent because of the budget restrictions. So we moved the case study to
the Fränkische Saale and we can bring in all the new instruments and so on. We are open in
that way. Lets do the project as it has been done for a long time. We have to be very
careful with setting standards. For the ideas to be flexible and to find the optimum for the
special situation in that area. We need special, optimised solutions for every part of the

Chitra Nadarajah
Does that mean the lack of acceptability was the additional cost?

Reinhard Schmidtke
Not the additional cost but the approval of the project. Using economical task. They didn‟t
do a cost benefit analysis before. We used 100 % of the 100 year standard design flood and
that is it. Now we cannot say okay we include climate change and we will see how the
damage potential increases and the additional cost. Then we come to a result and in the end
see if the cost outweighs the benefits.

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Hans Weber
Also on that aspect, for this case study there was a fear of delays. The problem to achieve
the case study in the time of the project of ESPACE.

John Firth
Are we okay if I capture that sort of thing by saying that the adaptation measures must be
appropriate – they must be very specific to the community. They must be optimised.
Whilst national standards have a role they can‟t meet the standards.

Reinhard Schmidtke
What we need is guidance on how to proceed. How to develop this decision making
process, but not setting standards. You have to have a regional climate change scenarios and
hydrology and hydraulics and physical impacts and cost benefit analysis, all these instruments
that have to be used. Then we will have a specific solution.

Richenda Connell
It sounds like a piece of the jigsaw to me. Guidance on how to develop the decision making

Reinhard Schmidtke
Yes. And which instrument you need to use and which information has to be developed. It
is a guidance.

Eric Kuindersma
But not the standard. You need some guidance.

Tim Reeder
I think we have gone a long way towards that decision testing framework. But, echoing what
Reinhard was saying, I think what is coming out of this is that we wanted to do more work,
but we haven‟t done that, on assessment of criteria, i.e. cost benefit analysis. What we are
finding in the Thames Estuary 2100 is you need multi-criteria analysis, you need cost-benefit
analysis and you need measures of how robust and resilient different options are to a
changing future. So we need much more flexible measures of success for major decisions.
We haven‟t got those yet. We wanted to do that but haven‟t got round to doing that.

Eric Kuindersma
It is not only money which must rule. When it is only a money cost-benefit it is counted
from now, benefits from now. We have to take into account the benefits for 100-200 years.
Then it is more political.

Tim Reeder
No, it has got to be multi-criteria analysis. There is an area for improvement. We need to
say, if you go down that path how resilient is that to a changing future? That decision won‟t
necessarily be based on money. We may say, because we are so uncertain we should go
that far, because that is a resilient „no regrets‟ measure. That should be part of the decision
making process. It shouldn‟t just be based on, we want to do it on 100 years on the best
cost benefit analysis, because something that big we won‟t get that answer. It is too

Eric Kuindersma

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In our area there the dykes were built for agricultural use and now we one million people.
So I think the benefit is slightly different. But when they built those dams they didn‟t know
they would be there for 100 years.

Fran Wallington
Who do we want to accept these adaptation measures? There are two levels of discussion
here. There is the level that Eric and I started off at – the farmers, communities, the people
affected by the decisions; and there is the level we have now got to which is very technical
and information orientated and evidence – based that politicians need to accept decision
making. So, do we want one set of guidance that would cover both elements of that

Tim Reeder
This needs to be integrated. You have got to do both.

Reinhard Schmidtke
The information needs are different for the different groups.

Fran Wallington
It is meant to be a parallel decision. The other thing that was captured was that we don‟t
talk to the local people about the appropriate decisions. It is how you dovetail two sets of
very informal scientific technical decisions with locally aware and appropriately relevant and
how they come together at the end to formulate the plans.

Tim Reeder
To me this highlights an issue that I don‟t think we have got to grips with. We were saying
we need to put climate change into existing processes, I think we will come to a point where
we are going to have to step outside of existing processes on strategic national and coastal
planning, which is what you are doing. Because we haven‟t faced this level of change before.
It won‟t be acceptable to the people of Manhood Peninsula to probably move somewhere
else which they might have to do eventually. So that is where I think we have not got the

John Firth
Do you see the present process of trying to integrate climate change into existing processes
as almost a transitional period. Just getting people to understand it is a risk but at some
point they will realise themselves that actually the risk demands, perhaps, a different process.

Mark Goldthorpe
But the existing processes are changing anyway.

Richenda Connell
All of these things blur into one another, so I am hoping that if you wanted to make a point
now and have not had the time, that you will remember it and bring it up somewhere else.
Under acceptability of adaptation measures, Tania I was interested to read about the work
you have been doing with the rural public, where you showed them some of these concrete
adaptation measures. There is a point you made in your spreadsheet where you said that
ways of saving money are very popular, and that you often found the costs were lower than
people expected. Was the cost issue one of the big things that came up for the public that
you were dealing with?

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Tania Stadsbader
I think it was my predecessor who completed the spreadsheets. But, yes, in our country it is
very important for the people – they always look at the costs and it makes it easier to
accept something that does not cost too much. I think it is also important to let them
understand what the benefit will be, not in terms of money but what the result will be for
them in a concrete way. So you have to make it clear what it means to them in their
everyday life.

Richenda Connell
One of the things on the spreadsheet talked about the financial support being made available
by the local authorities to help people, maybe buy a rainwater tank or something. So this is
the idea of fiscal incentives or subsidies, that will help people on the way. That is something I
definitely want to pick up. Has there been much coming out of ESPACE looking at subsidies.
Basically giving people money to make it easier for them to do the right thing. Has there
been very much coming through?

Fran Wallington
My experience on engaging the public on the ground is that they understand we need to
change but most of those people are looking at it on a very small scale, like „this is my
house‟, and when you think about flood protection and people are talking about raising their
electricity points to a metre high but they want support there is a demand for that to help
us do these changes. Help us do our damp proofing to two metres high. We can‟t just go
out and buy solar panels to reduce energy costs, we need help. So there is this sense of we
are not going to do it alone.

John Firth
The interesting thing is, there is an example, I think it is Norwich Union, where they are
actually paying, or giving some sort of monetary benefit, to households that actually do that
work. Otherwise they would not insure the property in the long term because they are not
going to keep paying out for flood damage all the time; they would just abandon the
business. So they have actually come up with a scheme, I think it is on the UKCIP
developing adaptation action case studies champion.

Chitra Nadarajah
In terms of the water boards compensating for guiding models, giving farmers, essentially,
money because their land will be flooded once every 9 or 10 years, we don‟t have that
system in the UK.

Eric Kuindersma
This is in discussion. We can give them money yearly or we can give them money if they
claim damages because of the water stored on their land. But you can also give them money
for one time only. That is the discussion we have to have now. You can do certain things
with this. What benefits do you have giving them money one time or every year as part of
their existence by having land in that area. That is what we are discussing now. The guiding
models was to create a discussion about how to deal with water storage in certain areas
with the spatial planners, because we are not a spatial planning agency.

Mark Elliot
We are just starting to get subsidies in the UK for farmers to adapt. There is a scheme for
the construction of water storage reservoirs which the farmers don‟t think is adequate, but
it is there. I think it pays something like 50% of capital costs. Farmers never think it is
adequate. There is also the environmental stewardship scheme which has just been
launched which does have things like salt marsh creation in it as an option, and so therefore
if you are talking about managed realignment projects or flood plain restoration projects

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then there is the scope for that. But again, there is no guarantee of long term money, it is
only an annual payment, guaranteed maybe for 10 years. That is a real risk for a lot of

Eric Kuindersma
What is happening is, when you pay not every year but one time and nothing happens in 20
years. Then maybe he builds a new farm in that area because it is not happening. There
must be a combination of the awareness of the people involved but also the spatial planning

John Firth
Maybe within that 10-15 years time horizon, understanding of the issue changes, it may be
the answer is something else. You have given yourself an adaptation response that takes you
through another 10-15 years, which allows you to then move on.

Eric Kuindersma
But as I already said, we need disasters or, better still, near disasters.

John Firth
It is a very good point. Acceptability needs disasters.

Mike Steel
You could say emergency planning is designing very high profile of events. Not actually
having a disaster but having a high profile event.

Richenda Connell
So, the sort of thing they have been doing for terrorism in London.

Mike Steel
Yes, where you evacuate thousands of people which would effectively close London for the

Fran Wallington
But surely prevention is better.

David Payne
We have been talking of a hosepipe ban in south east England, to give an example of forcing
people to change their behaviour and realise how valuable the water is.

Tim Yair
It has actually raised an awareness in peoples behaviour already.

David Payne
It doesn‟t mean water has run out but it makes people start thinking they should not waste

Tania Stadsbader
There is another aspect of expectation when you start from the very beginning with young
people, educating people. We see a big difference. People over 60 or 70 years really don‟t
want to hear anything about climate change. I see that my son is six years old. They discuss
a tsunami in his school. If he has a drink and he has to put his bottle away he knows exactly
what kind of box he has to put the bottle in. They are very conscious of things. You have

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to start from the very beginning because those little children are the decision makers of
tomorrow. We have to start there. It is an easier public to reach and to have long term
results, rather than starting with older people who really don‟t want to hear about it.

Jill Rankin
Do you think we need to integrate something into the curriculum then? Possibly that could
be one of the recommendations of ESPACE?

Richenda Connell
We will move on from that one. We are going to move on to the Four As. That is the first
one up there. Overcoming this barrier of the lack of awareness, „it‟s a big problem and I
don‟t know where to start‟.

My prime target, obviously, to start us off on this is going to be Hampshire and tell us about
the real miracles of your work on this.

Doogie Black
I think what I would start at, then, is to go right back to the beginning and our motivation of
why we did this work. There was a recognition among us that lots of information did not
necessarily lead to raised awareness, and that even with raised awareness, that did not
necessarily lead to any changes in behaviour. That is why we got onto commissioning some
research to look at what might actually end in action. The reason I have brought that up,
where we started, is because we have spent a lot of time today talking about information
and having the right information for the right people. That is very true. We do need to
have that, but we also need to have it in a timely way as people are asking for it. It is a much
more sophisticated approach where we are looking at having an end result that has positive
changes in lifestyle choice or organisation – whatever you are focussing on.

The reason it keeps getting labelled as the Four As is because we tried to come up with
something that was catchy for people to remember. You have to have different ingredients
to bring to that. The four As here ( although we were talking about a fifth A as well) for
ease of discussion at the moment, because we wouldn‟t fit it into 20 minutes, the first three
As – Association, Awareness and Agency, are all about the balance of understanding what to
do about the situation and feeding information at the right pace for awareness and having to
work together with the right people. Fran was talking about she had the whole community
and decision makers and there was a whole relationship built up. There is a whole
education process. Because we were actually working together we started getting
information and taking it on board as awareness.

Richenda Connell
Its about the right information at the right time.

Fran Wallington
Does that not feed straight back into that bit of the jigsaw on the decision making process.
You inform that development of the decision making process by having the right information
and the timeliness we were talking about.

Bryan Boult
The thing that strikes me about this is the results of the workshop in Winchester. When
we started this work it seemed as if it was in a box and not core to ESPACE. I think, for me,
the workshop in Winchester showed that actually that is completely wrong. The work that
Doogie has been leading actually runs right the way through the whole project. The
workshop in Winchester showed that, because when we broke up into groups and we
picked case studies, the case studies were very different, and yet every single group that

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looked at how to use those four As in the case study were able to use the four As, and not
only were able to use them but were able to see either how they could have done the case
study better if they had used the four As earlier, or how they were going to change what
they were going to do in that case study because they knew it would be better by using the
four As. To me the idea that I would put to you is that this is actually one of the key lessons
we are learning and at the moment there is nothing to say it could not be meaningful for the
other countries in Europe. That is the idea, and that gains importance because our
recommendations at the end are not just for North West Europe, our recommendations
are for Europe as a whole.

Richenda Connell
It is nice to find something that is strongly working across.

Mike Steel
Referring to what someone said earlier. The comment about the jigsaw piece about
educating tomorrow‟s decision makers – it is also educating tomorrow‟s public as well.

Richenda Connell
On VROM‟s the spreadsheets there is a point where you have said integrated approaches
raise awareness. Does that mean anything to you? We can come back to that.

Hans ten Hoeve
Again, the integrated approach is a way to raise awareness. Integrated approach in spatial
planning means just as spatial planning always has been, identifying different interests,
different opportunities and in this way incorporating climate change. It is a possibility to
raise awareness and raise the awareness to do something and to influence your decisions.
Your future situation in respect of the climate change.

John Firth
One of the things I picked up was a comment that two important characteristics for a
successful communication strategy, you mentioned one very strong signals which exceed the
normal information noise, makes it stand out. Secondly, communicating facts in a different
way and modifying forms to produce a stereo effect. I quite like the ideas of signals and
noise and stereo effect.

Reinhard Schmidtke
I think in communications for a risk like climate change you need a strong signal. The
strongest signal is an extreme event, like a drought or extreme flood. Then politicians and
the affected people are aware of what may happen. That is when you say „that is climate
change‟. The other thing is there are too many discussions about terrorism and so on, and
climate change comes in one ear and out the other so it is what we call a noise in
communication science. We need some strong signals. In Germany there is a discussion on
what can these signals be? For example, each year we have a meeting and draw in pictures
from other countries, what happened and so on. People are getting information on how
high the damage can be, what can happen to their house, to their inventory and so on. It is
the same as what we are doing for our youngsters on smoking where we show people who
have cancer and how they suffer, and say that will happen if you don‟t stop smoking. It is a
strong signal.

That is the first thing. We have to find how we can demonstrate the impacts. Another
stereo effect is what Hans said, integrated planning. We have to get from different points of
view the same information. One objective interacts with another objective and not only the
water engineers talk about it but also doctors and health professionals. So people get from

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different institutions information about the same climate change. That‟s what we call stereo

Jill Rankin
Just one more on the media item from the public. If you have been looking at how they
have been dealing with the information coming from climate change scientists it is very
skewed towards looking at the negative and not so much looking for solutions on what we
can do about it. What we need is a lateral approach of feeding information from lots of
different sources.

Tania Stadsbader
Maybe instead of always repeating the negative messages maybe they should give another
approach and promote to little positive actions.

Tim Yair
The trouble with it is that it doesn‟t sell papers for the mass media. That is one of the big
issues. Positive things don‟t sell as well as negatives.

Jill Rankin
Maybe the decision makers need to come up with a new creative way of selling it to the
media. At Green Week last year they discussed the responsibility of the media to
communicate climate change.
Bryan Boult
If the signals to climate change you are looking for are not happening in your area,
then the question is what do you do. One of the recommendations of ESPACE we
could make is that there should be some way of capturing and collecting these
impacts across Europe and then some mechanism that would allow that impact to be
translated into something meaningful for your area. The thing I have in mind that
shows that can be done is the French heat wave. What happened there was the
Departments of Health in each country looked the French heat wave and, using their
own models and methodologies, applied that to their own country. So you saw
within weeks of the total deaths being announced in France a period across Europe
of very similar stories, that if the same thing happened in the UK this would be 2-
4,000 deaths. Maybe what we need is somebody like the European Environment
Agency to capture these impacts, whether they are, in agreement with the member
states to come up with some common methodology that you could apply that to
that would give that standardised signal.

John Firth
The signals don‟t have to be in your country, they could be somewhere else. At a
business level I think the example to think of is the insurance industry which actually
is looking at the signals throughout the world. Swiss Union, the Association of
British Insurers, the European Insurance Association. They are doing lots of work
trying to think what those signals are because they can see that risk.

Richenda Connell
Bryan, do you feel confident enough to suggest that should be something possibly as
a piece of the jigsaw?

Bryan Boult
I am not sure.

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Mark Goldthorpe
I am just following on from that, wondering whether the creation of an EU climate
impacts programme is something the ESPACE project should be promoting as part
of the recommended jigsaw pieces.

What would that look like then?

Mark Goldthorpe
Would it just be about scenarios and guidance with the models or would it take on a
monitoring role recommending to the Environment Agency. Or perhaps it would
take on a more integrated community approach?

Reinhard Schmidtke
I think we have to be careful with recommendations when we don‟t know if other
institutions are working on the subject. I agree with you, but we have to have some
research on what are the other national institutions doing.

Fran Wallington
It seems to sit in conflict with everything we have already said about having
information that is local enough to be acceptable and meaningful. We talked about
having global warming at international standards and how we keep coming down and
actually the further down we go the better we are able to communicate, plan and
prepare. So how do we sit with recommending that? It needs to be very clear
about what it is doing.

Mark Goldthorpe
It is how you pick an example, such as the heat wave, and translate that into the
potential for other areas.

John Firth
We talked earlier about how we have got to get out of this mindset of thinking
climate change is an environmental issue. It actually manifests itself as a social and
economic issue. Perhaps when we start thinking about who else should be involved
it should be the Environment Directorate at Europe. At the moment people feel
that it is „not my problem‟.

Richenda Connell
We will put that up as something to consider.

John Firth
I think it ties in with this idea of integration as well and the stereo effect. If you are
just getting it from the environment side you switch off.

Richenda Connell
To give you a time check, we now have about 10 minutes to go until lunch. There
are still a bunch of other things I can see from my own notes. We haven‟t heard, for

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instance, so far from South East Climate Change Partnership about your
communication plan and you experience of the awareness raising issues. I would like
to pick yours up for a moment. Also West Sussex - your community engagement on
climate change and LDFs, and what came out of that. If we could have a couple of
points from you about that, that would be very helpful.

Mark Goldthorpe
I think the work on the Four As should become fundamentally important to the
South East Climate Change Partnership. In a way focussing on the communications
plan is focussing on the way we have done it up until now. Providing information,
getting the information out there, assuming that is going to make some difference
and therefore trying to provide a framework that allows us to do that. We have
sector groups which actually bring people together from different organisations,
whether that is local government, wildlife trusts, environment agency or regional
bodies. This involves building the association between them on a particular topic, as
a means of generating awareness in that group which then becomes useful for other
members of the partnership. To be quite honest, I think we are still trying to
grapple with that. We have not found the solution between the communications
plan and the way you came first conceptually before the sector groups got in. The
sector groups should be more of the solution, however they are proving quite
problematic to work with. I don‟t have any big solutions.

Richenda Connell
Thanks. Would Fran or anyone from West Sussex like to volunteer about the
climate change and LDFs?

Fran Wallington
The only thing I was thinking of was on the acceptability bit. We picked up on
education, participatory planning and the whole stakeholder engagement. It is the
Four Es that instantly reflect the Four As. So where you have got Awareness, you
have Education. Where you have got Association, you have got Engagement.
Where you have got Agency, you have got Empower. Where you have got Action,
you have got Enable.

The luxury I have had through the funding from ESPACE is that my engagement
process has been about climate change and how we look for spatial planning
solutions. When you are looking at how spatial planning needs to adapt to climate
change it is difficult. The difficulty lies in translating what I have done into a
framework that is available for spatial planners.

We need to be learning more from participatory planning approaches and how
climate change becomes part of the wider planning agenda.

Going back to the integration as well. We can‟t just plan for space. The thing about
spatial planning is it is starting to go towards integrated planning because it is looking
at the economic and water claims on the land etc. But there are lots of other plans
that fit around that. We need to be actually considering the whole planning agenda
in one.

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John Firth
Are you suggesting we have a central planning process for infrastructure? These
sound very 1950s strong socialist ideas.

Fran Wallington
The process is about engagement and acceptability. We may as well go back to what
acceptance are you looking at? Are you looking at public acceptance or are you
looking at decision makers?

John Firth
Is there a conflict? Most decisions are not taken by individuals but all sorts of
organisations, so is the planning process about trying to give a guide to framework,
rather than actually saying it ought to be done like this? I.e. - not imposing a very
rigid control on our central planners?

Fran Wallington
Those organisations who have different needs for different plans should come
together and deliver one process which they then put into their structures. It is
not a new idea but instead involves going back to the spatial idea of looking at the
landscape plan and scales of planning. For example, if someone is working on a
tourism strategy they need to be thinking about water availability, transport and
infrastructure. If you have got a package that can integrate the plan as a whole, this
cross-sectoral work is therefore all done there and they will then just take away
what they need from that process.

David Payne
It is also about positive change and accommodating growth. There is a natural
reaction from local politicians against change. What we are trying to do is build
growth but build climate change adaptation into it. It is a communications issue and
is not about stopping it from happening.

Richenda Connell
Do you think politicians don‟t like change?

David Payne
That is too sweeping. It is using it as an excuse against things. There are
assumptions made which are not backed up by fact.

Eric Kuindersma
If there are changes which are good for their political career then I think they like

Reinhard Schmidtke
Just a small point on our planning discussion. We have different levels of planning:
Spatial planning, regional planning and local planning, and then we have the operative
planning of the different public bodies. That is the system. The question is, which
information and which decision can be made for each level? It is impossible to bring
in all the information on the lowest level. It doesn‟t work.

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Sometimes I would say we shouldn‟t use information but communication.
Information is one way. I give you information, but when we talk we have to find
agreement. It is better to use communication instead of information. Informing the
public is not enough in many cases. What we found in our surveys was that people
want to communicate with the public bodies but not to get paper.

Hans ten Hoeve
And even better, not ever communication but interaction. Interaction in spatial

Richenda Connell
It is now lunch time. We have talked for longer about these two barriers than we
expected to, or than our timetable suggested we should have done, but it seemed
like the discussion was interesting and worthwhile. I think when we come back we
are going to have to make a decision about whether we want to discuss these
remaining four things all in quite a short period, or whether we want to focus on a
couple that we really want to spend some time on. I will leave you to think about
that over lunch and we can agree on it when we come back.

In terms of pieces of the jigsaw we have the idea of:

       A very rich set of issues about guidance on how to develop the decision
        making process with the public, the politicians and the decision makers, using
        the behaviour change principles. That has come through as a very strong
       A point relating to flexible measures of success and the concept of using
        multi-criteria analysis as the way to analyse these measures of success
        measures against them.

       Bryan‟s idea about developing some cross-European impact scenarios for
        countries to engage with and test, down to the local level.

       Financial compensation, subsidies and grants for adaptations.

       Education of tomorrow‟s decision makers and tomorrow‟s public.

       Recognition that natural disasters often seem to be the drivers for big
        change. It does say to us that if something happened we could be ready for

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                                                                             SESSION 3

Richenda Connell
We have been reflecting on what we found most valuable about this morning‟s
discussion and we think it has tended to be when somebody makes a point and
somebody else disagrees that we are getting the most fruitful material out of things.

We what we are going to try this afternoon, rather than going through our list and
asking you to tell us about what you have done, we are going to try to put to you a
couple of hypotheses that have come through from one or two of you pieces of
work, and maybe ask other people if they agree or disagree with this hypothesis and
try to have some of that cross-cutting discussion.

The first point we want to pick up is in the domain of information. Actually it is
disappointing that we have not got our two colleagues here because it is a point that
they make very strongly I think. I am going to put the point initially to somebody
who I believe will have a view on it, which is Tim.

Hypothesis: we need excellent quantified information to be able to make decisions about
adapting to climate change. In other words we need lots of really good solid information to
make decisions about how to adapt and quantify technical knowledge.

Tim Reeder
You can confuse people with the range of uncertainty if you are not careful. All the
work we have been doing on the decision testing tool is about assessing the different
outcomes against different climate change scenarios. What is important is to present
it in a fashion that is graspable. For example, you could use the threshold analysis,
which I think is something that has come out since we finished our information pilot.
FloodRanger is another example.

In our case storm surge is particularly uncertain and we are doing a lot of work with
the Hadley Centre to try and reduce the uncertainty of effects of climate change on
surge. We won‟t have that information until the end of the project. If that does
produce uncertainty (it might not) then at least we could get some probability
towards some of the scenarios that we are working on.

You do need some information to help you deal with the uncertainty and make a
decision but the uncertainty itself it is not an excuse for not doing anything.

Richenda Connell
Reinhard, I will just give you a really quick recap because we are discussing a point
which I think is something you would be interested in commenting on. We are
discussing the question of whether we need really excellent quantitative information
to make decisions about adaptation or not. Tim has been talking about the Thames

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Estuary 2100 work and has been explaining the approach there where they are
trying to develop a concept of thresholds and look at how scenarios relate to those
thresholds. How do you feel about decision making in the face of this gross

Tim Reeder
What we have done on the pilot is work through the decision testing framework
which we piloted through ESPACE, and then building on that we have incorporated
proper flood estimation tools and MDSF. As a third level we have demonstrate those
outcomes in a more accessible way, i.e. FloodRanger.

In summary, we have tried to build a machine that will help you make decisions in
the face of uncertainty.

John Firth
When the work has been completed and the Environment Agency or Defra go back
and say “the optimum solution is going to cost £x million – can we have the money
please?” – Do you genuinely believe the Minister is just going to sign it.

Tim Reeder
It comes back to the agency and awareness and the other A‟s. In our particular case
there won‟t be one solution. I was hoping to show you some of our latest
developments on the decision tree analysis, but essentially I think what we would be
selling is a recipe of how to cope with climate change through the next 100 years
with an investment path, a storyline, a decision analysis and timing based on events as
they turn out. We can give government an indication as to the probability of some
of these scenarios, but I don‟t think we are going to be able to say this is definitely
the best solution. We might, but given the uncertainties of the rate of climate
change, I think it would be wise to say “if it goes this way we will go down this
decision path, or if it goes that way we should go down that decision path. Because
we won‟t know which way it is going for another 20 years it would be advisable to
work out now the possible ways it could go. You can then make sure you have
considered all possibilities. For the Thames, we don‟t know at the moment which
way the climate system is going to change so there is no way we are going to be able
to, even if we wanted to, make a case about a barrier now. It is probably only
justifiable given a high level of climate change.

Richenda Connell
So how are you going to move that forward in terms of the high level scenarios,
proving that you might need to take account of those?

Tim Reeder
To do our early conceptual options work, we had around four scenarios ranging
from very low to very extreme, taking on board the latest ice melt science. We
haven‟t got any probabilities against those at the moment so we have tested various
options for their effectiveness both in time, ie level (time is effectively level) and
space, ie distance along the estuary, against a big range of possible outcomes. From
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that we have determined flood storage could be advantageous for some but not all
areas. We have presented this information back to ODPM, using Thamesmead (a
new development outside of London) as an example. The models show that
Thamesmead is one of the best bits of the estuary to use flood storage to reduce
flood extreme water levels. If you chose sections further down the estuary, the
reduction of extreme flood levels might be less effective. We predicted that their
response would be to say that it is all very interesting but that we have got 10,000
houses already there. Surprisingly they didn‟t say that and turned round and said, we
really need to know that because in 80 years time the life of that development may
be changing so it is not totally inconceivable that we could reserve that land.

Bringing this example back to the decision tree analysis, ODPM needed to know that
is a possibility now, not so they can decide about it but so they can start thinking
about it. You then set a target for the future when you are going to say, right are
we going to go for this (or not).

ODPM. So that is quite a win for risk analysis on climate change because during the
meeting Defra‟s thinking was probably not going as fast as ours so we ended up
arguing with ODPM against Defra, which was quite interesting.

I think we are getting there in terms of building an approach to cope with the
uncertainty. We will obviously have to cost out the options but whether we are
now going to need to move to the more extreme options we don‟t know yet.

I wrote a paper in 1998 on the whole subject of climate change and planning and I
said in that paper that we should think of the long terms as opposed to 2100.
Nobody every thinks about 2100 and onwards. That is long term to my mind.
Medium term is to 2100 and short term is 20 years.

David Payne
In reality what would happen is any new developments would not get planning
permission because of this long term risk and long term plan.

Tim Reeder
No, because if you are planning over 100 years it makes sense to develop the
Thames Gateway ……….. last 80 years. You might not get the return you want in
those 80 years but at least you would get the knowledge and the wisdom not to
defend the thing forever when you know that is the point.

Reinhard Schmidtke
We have to keep in mind that the planners are not the decision makers. What we
can do is take different scenarios for climate change and can see which are the best
options for this or that scenario. We can look at the pros and cons of different
options using different scenarios. We have a range of scenarios and we have a range
of options. It is the task of the decision makers to find the best solution. If you give
this decision to planners then you stop planning. We have to be very careful of
getting roles and responsibilities right.
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Richenda Connell
But do you not that the decision makers are coming to you and asking the likeliness
of that high end scenario?

Tim Reeder
The more you look into uncertainty on certain issues the more certain you are that
it is uncertain. You have to give them a decision tree where they chose the „least
regrets‟ decision. We say we are sorry but we can‟t tell you that we are definitely
going to get a particular climate situation. However we can tell them if you do this
then if that happens it is probably okay and if on the other hand that happens then
you can do this. I think that is the secret in a case like ours where we have got long
term planning and big sums of money. It is not necessarily the right solution for
every decision – you can‟t have that level of sophistication for one particular sea wall
for half a mile around one particular development.

Richenda Connell
But „least regrets‟ is the sort of criteria that you think is a good way of judging these

Tim Reeder
It goes back to what I am saying about judging the options. Judging the options has
to be based on cost benefit, multi-criteria analysis i.e- the resilience and robustness
of the measure. The robustness is precisely that – how good is that option given
varying scenarios. How well does it stand up, given different futures. I have had this
debate with our experts and they say you have to get that all tied down and decide
exactly how you are going to measure these options. I am saying you have to decide
the approach you have to take in terms of multi-criteria analysis ……… How you
make the decision depends on the decision makers‟ view of what they value more
important than others. If they value cost then they will make one decision, if they
value resilience then they will make another. That is not our job. It is our job to
paint them the picture but which lever they pull is up to them.

John Firth
One of the criticisms I have heard is that it is about time technical experts got off the
fence and told the decision makers what the answer is. That is not a criticism. The
classic example is in climatology, where we took a long time to say it is human
induced, rather than say „the signs are‟ or „it looks like‟. People want to hear that
and want certainty. Using our Thames Estuary case study as an example, you would
expect the politician on hearing the range of proposals, options and scenarios, to say
„look Tim, .what decision are you asking me to take?‟

Tim Reeder
It is our job to come up with the range of options. The mayor of London (Ken), for
example, has already made the decision from his point of view – he wants maximum
safety. He is therefore already saying we are going to build a new barrier but
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doesn‟t mention the Environment Agency. This is a political decision - to go for a big
solution to London‟s problems. Because he hasn‟t got the money and due to the
complications of the project and the situation we are in, we are going to have to go
over the range of options which make sense to different stakeholders. For example,
the outer barrier makes sense to Ken but it won‟t make sense to Gordon Brown –

Richenda Connell
Ken‟s successor may feel the opposite.

Tim Reeder
Or maybe the leader of the Port of London Authority. That is why I think we
cannot give one option. We can advise them on the best path given the
circumstances, but the decision is up to you. There is a £6 billion issue here in the
longer term and it is up to UKCIP to decide which one they want. We can„t decide.
We can just given them a recipe, if you like.

Richenda Connell
Is that approach something that all of you are experiencing? Is that the way you are
all approaching this issue?

Reinhard Schmidtke
We have to take into account decision making normally goes along with conflict
management. We cannot say what is the best option because of the acceptance of
the options by the different groups who make up the decision makers. With the
Thames Barrier there are so many conflicts. From the technical point of view there
is a best solution - a best economic solution and a best environmental solution. On
top of that you then have the bodies, groups and the general public who influence
the decision and what you end up doing is compromising.

So our role is to bring in information. This information has to be credible
information. From experience the components of a project demand more
information than the decision making part of the project. We therefore have to
work on a quantitative basis in our projects.

There is an issue surrounding the budget allocation for planning. Public bodies have a
low budget mentality in planning i.e. - they try not to spend much money in planning.
That is very counter-productive because you save most of the money at the
beginning of the planning process. I think the low budget mentality in planning is a
transnational issue and not just applicable in Germany.

Richenda Connell
So this means that you haven‟t got enough money for the research that you need?

Reinhard Schmidtke

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Yes, for the planning process. Afterwards we can spend million in establishing or
erecting the technical infrastructure, but there is far too little money allocated for
the planning process for the amount of information requested. We also lose a lot of
time in the planning approval process as they ask for information. We have to
prepare information for the planning process after the process has started - it takes
us sometimes years to prepare to come to a final plan approval. That is similar in all
countries, I think.

Richenda Connell
Is that something that others share? Not putting enough time in at the beginning
of the planning process?

Hans ten Hoeve
These aspects are transnational. I think that is it all about decision making. Do we
have real options at this time? Do we have enough focus on „no regret‟ investments?
Enough focus on reservations we need to make? Do we have enough support for
that? It is all to do with up scaling and getting all the interests together and getting
some incentives in the process, so that opponents join or are isolated? That is the
kind of process you want to achieve. In my opinion because of the uncertainty, we
should place a strong focus on „no regrets‟ investments. The other things are quite
structural, you need time and better information etc. That takes a lot of time. We
have to start with the full process.

Richenda Connell
What if you can‟t find any „no regrets‟ actions though? Do you think you always can?
Are they a Holy Grail?

Tim Reeder
We can use some non-structural measures, i.e. building the buildings in the most
resilient way and improving emergency planning etc. That is going to make sense in
the future and it is going to make sense now. We need to bang on about it now -
which we are.

Hans Weber
Can I ask Hans a question? What do you mean by no regret investments in the light
of uncertainties?

Hans ten Hoeve
Investment is robust for all scenarios. An example of a „no regrets „ investment is
when you have the opportunity to locate houses at site A or B and there is minimal
difference of cost. In that instance you can take into account climate change. We
make sure that the development is combined with other interests, eg- like space and
river where we have combined the development with the demands of communities
to expand. When they are close to a river we say, lets make a deal - your
development of housing or dwellings should be combined with the measurement of
the river and if that is done we put in a little more money. That works very well
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because it attracts all the people who then also invest a little bit more. That way you
get acceptance.

Richenda Connell
One of the issues that I picked up on the South East Plan process was that you
talked about the Environment Agency not having enough time to model the risks
associated with all of the different development house layouts. How did you get
over that in terms of the options of the South East Plan and doing modelling to
inform that?

Tim Reeder
What I meant was that we didn‟t have the full decision making framework in place to
test the South East Plan development.

David Payne
Also it doesn‟t go into that detail. It is setting a framework for where houses should
go, but it doesn‟t say exactly where they will go. Modelling the effect on flood risk is
difficult. One thing we might have to do now is a regional flood risk assessment. I
don‟t know how you do a regional flood risk development when you have to get all
that data together for a region the size of our region and then appraise non spatial
specific policies. I think Hans was saying it is an ongoing process. Other than
Reinhard saying we are not putting enough time and money in, I think we do put the
time and money in but we can‟t spend forever on the analysis. We have to get on.
It is going to be an ongoing process of more information coming forward and the
review of what is there as more information does come through. We are putting a
lot of money and time into planning. The expenditure goes to regional level and
local levels. A lot of time and money goes into the planning, and I think we are
lacking the information to inform on that at the beginning. I am not sure I agree that
if you threw more money at it we could do things differently necessarily. We have
Government deadlines to meet. The trouble with our planning system is that
deadlines are getting shorter and the amount of consultation you have to do is
getting much longer. It doesn‟t add up. It is going to be an ongoing process because
you are not going to get it right first time.

Tim Reeder
In our case we have got the luxury of being able to look a long way ahead and we
think we can justify some big solution possibly (possibly not). But I am not sure
whether when we move from one mode of planning to the next mode will we keep
putting it off until we are in the Katrina situation and we have to do it? Is that a
sensible way of doing things? I think getting out of this mode and into the next mode
is the thing that challenges me. Like the original idea behind the decision testing
tool, to show that the top of the South Downs gets dry and dusty and not covered
in nice grass species. Maybe in 100 years time they will think, why didn‟t they
develop up there? We are still not getting into even thinking like that. Also there is
no right answer. I am wondering whether we are challenging ourselves enough, or if
we ever will.

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Richenda Connell
We are too incremental maybe, do you think?

David Payne
There are other things to balance as well.

That is back to the hierarchy of spatial planning against these other nature
conservation objectives.

Tim Reeder
Exactly. We are driven by the current priorities.

John Firth
Can I just ask Tim a question? You said you thought one of the key ways to
overcome this uncertainty is by looking at options against the various scenarios, so
you end up almost with a matrix and try and plot a route through based on whatever
the political criteria for a sustainable decision is. I can see how that works for
something like the Thames situation, but it sucks in vast amount of resources,
technical ability, competence and knowledge and data collection and that sort of
thing. How can you apply that sort of approach to a decision to, say, building a new
hospital and what should you build it for? Should you be building a lot more hospital
wards that can cater for elderly people in 20 years time and even more bed space
for respiratory illnesses? How do you make that sort of process work on a smaller
project like that?

Tim Reeder
I think the current Defra guidance on flood defence is quite good in that way,
because it is fairly pragmatic. It just says consider 20% increase in flow for most
fluvial catchments in the UK. All sorts of architects would argue and say that is too
imprecise. If it is a big investment decision it probably is too imprecise, but at least it
is fairly easily graspable. It is probably still the worst case in the UK situation. It is
not going to get much worse than that.

Then the decision maker, it might be a small project – building a weir or whatever-
can say I will look at that 20% increase and I can say, going back to Reinhardt‟s point,
I can either afford it or I can‟t afford it. If I can then I can factor it in. If I don‟t then
at least I can say I have thought about it and we can‟t afford it in this situation. That
example makes the whole thing a bit simpler. Getting the worst case and getting
somebody to test the sensitivity analysis against that.

Bryan Boult
Is it the case that people who are intimately involved in an area or project require
less information before making a decision than people who are less involved? The

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people with more knowledge are more prepared to take a judgement – you don‟t
need to be convinced by information.

Fran Wallington
So you are saying the expert should make the decision?

Bryan Boult
No. If people tend to agree with that I am going to come on to your case study,
because I think in your case study what you have done is taken people who have no
idea whatsoever about it and you have brought them up to a level of competence
and understanding of information that is sufficient for them to make decisions. But
that information is nothing like the depth of technical information that you might say
would justify it and would give you a solid scientific base.

Fran Wallington
No. Some of the decisions we have made are “ we require more information”.

Bryan Boult
Yes, but other decisions people have been having to make have been at a lower level
of information. Because they have been involved with the process, they have
understood more of what is going on.

Fran Wallington
They have been given enough knowledge about climate change in the future, thinking
about the area and bringing out some kind of vision so they can make decisions.

Bryan Boult
In the case study they have not asked for exact scientific models with detailed
information for that particular location.

Fran Wallington
No we only used the generic model, UKCIP graphs and other things to get the
climate change message across and then talk about what it means. I guess it is more
of a theoretical process. We talked about scenarios and we carried out scenario
planning using sea level rise for parameters and coastal defences, but they were
official scenarios with no data sets attached to them.

Bryan Boult
I would like to come back to another point that was made this morning about the
information needs of different people at different levels. The hypothesis that
Richenda put forward, I think, was a blanket hypothesis which was that everybody
needs perfect knowledge about everything to make a decision. I think that certain
case studies we have got within ESPACE show that is not necessarily true. You need
the right sort of information and the right sort of engagement. That comes back to
what we were talking about with the Four As – that if you do it in the right way then
people feel that sense of agency which they are given by a lot less information than
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they would be if you were just getting them to accept a decision that you have taken.
They need much more justification than if they were involved in it.

Mark Goldthorpe
Also knowing that other people are involved i.e. – the „association‟ also helps.

Reinhard Schmidtke
Our experience is that people at different levels (decision makers, the public sector
and the private person), need the information to perceive the pros and cons. We
have to give them the information. The problem is that we have limited resources.
If you decide to spend for flood proofing several thousand pounds, then you will say,
okay – what are the benefits, how often does it occur, what is my risk, what is the
physical impact to my house? Ask all these questions before you make a decision to
spend £38,000 for flood proofing. Be very careful with case studies and pilot
projects – they are quite different. This example is not a case study, because a case
study is less than a pilot project. A pilot project is a real problem. A case study has
some limitations, you need some judgement at the end but you don‟t see the results.
So case studies are normally reduced in the supply of information.

Fran Wallington
The case study in the West Sussex case is a real problem.

Reinhard Schmidtke
Maybe that is the first time for a pilot project.

Fran Wallington
But they would still have to use the outcomes of what we have done. We have an
action plan, for example. One of the agreed actions in that plan is to try and agree
that there will be no building below 5 metres above sea level. But that is an agreed
action in that plan and we then need to use the process to make the right decision
and convince the people responsible for delivering that action. So there is still the
next phase of turning these actions they agreed to consensus to achieve vision. We
are now at the stage where we have all those actions, we know how to get there,
that is the way forward. But the final decision with implementation is the bridge we
are travelling now.

Chitra Nadarajah
Do you think the community have an easier time making decisions with less perfect
or detailed information because ultimately it really was not something they were
going to implement, so they didn‟t actually have the responsibility to deliver that

Fran Wallington
I think there are three levels of implementation. One is what research do we need
and what organisations do we want? There are some actions that we can just take
on and deliver but there is still work to be done eg - getting the changes in the
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development framework and the actual spatial planning involved in maintaining
relationships with the people involved in our process and transferring it into theirs.

Chitra Nadarajah
So the decisions that were made by the community– how much information do they
need before they are willing to make those decisions?

Fran Wallington
Most community level decisions were about individual action. They didn‟t need
much information because they didn‟t need any additional information beyond the
climate change awareness.

Richenda Connell
When reality bites and implementation really happens and somebody can‟t do
something that they had in mind, do you think then people will say „prove it, I am not
convinced by this yet‟.

Fran Wallington
We obviously had our fair share of sceptics. The main interesting part for me was
the way they travelled from the first session right through to the end of the
workshop process, which took about 7 months. The sceptics in the first session had
gone home with questions and in the last session they were the ones who shouted
down someone who was at his first session. I thought I wouldn‟t be able to shut him
up and it was members of the community who stood up. The association gave them
that knowledge.

Mark Elliot
It is still fairly early in the process. For the Thames Estuary, there is no published
plan yet for removal and changing of current flood defences. It is still fairly early in
the engagement process. We don‟t know how the community will react if and
when a more detailed proposal is made to actually allow the sea into certain areas.
That is really where we are going to find out how effective this initial process has

John firth
Can I perhaps move on from that, picking up on the point that its one thing putting
the plan together and another seeing how people react to it when it actually comes
to making decisions. Whilst looking at the South East implementation plan, it struck
me through my experience of thinking about how the water emission works in the
United Kingdom, particularly in the context of water companies and OFWAT – both
of those organisations couldn‟t care less about spatial planning. It has no relevance
to their 5 year planning process, their infrastructural rights. Is there a role for spatial
planning if those two key organisations, who actually deliver adaptation in theory,
one financing it and one building it, are not part of this process? Will spatial strategy
have any effect at all?

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I am going to ask Eric. There is clearly a different concept there in terms of thinking
about water and spatial planning. Have you got any thoughts on that Eric, as to why
it looks like it works in Holland but it clearly isn‟t working in the UK at the moment.
Why is it different?

Eric Kuindersma
It is because of different organisations. The water board takes no decision on spatial
planning. It has an advisory role. When a municipality or province decides to build
houses in a certain area the water board is involved and asked to deal with water
management in that area. If building in an area causes problems for the people who
are going to live there we don‟t say you can‟t build there. We say don‟t build in a
traditional way but that if you build in another way then there are no problems with
water management. So we are not taking the decisions. We are professionals in
water management and that is what we are bringing into the process. We offer
advice on how to deal with water management issues, but the decision is made by
the general government.

John Firth
So in Holland if the spatial planning authorities decide that what is required is, for
example, a new reservoir to manage water resources would that automatically
translate into action by the water companies to actually physically do something
about it?

Eric Kuindersma
There is some search area that we know we need storage for water. We don‟t
know exactly where but it is in our area. Then there are some nice principles
coming up, like the NIMBY effect. We have to deal with 28 principalities, but which
one is picked out? We try to make a new strategy and we call it PLIMBY – Please In
My Back Yard. Maybe that is working. When we were talking on the lower scale
the principality was making the decisions on spatial planning. Maybe that is working.
When we were talking about on the lower scale the principality was making the
decisions on spatial planning.

Hans ten Hoeve
All the decisions are made in the principality.

Eric Kuindersma
The water board as well as the regional or local authorities are is involved in the
decision making process. But this is as an advisor – not as a decision maker. We
keep that fairly clear, otherwise we are sitting in the chair of the municipality. That
is not our role.

Jo Anderson
Who decides where the money comes from to invest in flood defence or reservoirs?

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Eric Kuindersma
Two different things. Flood defence is flooding from the main river, and reservoirs is
a regional problem. On top of flood defence its partly by the water board in the
main part by the provinces and the national ministries. That is because there is some
main interest. People who are living there have to pay for the safety, but on the
other hand they are already living there and there is an economic interest. That is
why there is also contribution from provinces and the ministry.

When we talk about reservoirs – storage of water – this issue has been made that
there must be some reservoirs but the issue of money we are still discussing.

Hans ten Hoeve
I think we have got to use another perspective on this, because there are other
solutions to just water reservoirs. We start with different options and we start the
process consulting everybody and then turn to that package of solutions. In the
package you find finance. Sometimes it is the water board, sometimes it is the
agricultural sector, sometimes the water industry. But that is in the process of
finding solutions. We need to develop where it is going to be and who is going to
pay. That is the solution we want when we find the financing. It is a simple picture.

David Payne
I don‟t agree that they ignore spatial planning. Their decisions are informed by what
their future customer base is going to be. It is a two way process – we give
information to them and they give information to us. If we have got a policy that the
regional planners say in 20 years we are going to need a new reservoir if we didn‟t
have that policy there would be a lot more difficulty getting permission for it, we
might even have to convince OFWAT we need funding to prepare the planning case
for it. So it is not that we say we need a reservoir here, it is a two way dialogue
between the industry and the planners.

John Firth
But do you think there is a need to try and test whether a spatial planning strategy
on climate change actually work? Would it deliver adaptation, using the UK water
industry as an example. Every 5 years the UK water industry puts together a five
year investment plan and receives a wish list from the Environment Agency as to
what schemes ought to be in. It then takes on board what is in the regional assembly
and the guidance documents, puts all those forward and OFWAT says when you add
all this up that means 5% increase in prices for the customer.

How do we get to this position so that the spatial strategy concept actually delivers
adaptation? It is no good having a strategy that just says we ought to do this. It is
not worth the paper it is written on.

David Payne
Regionally there is a very fragmented water industry. We have never had a proper
regional overview. We have never asked the question of, if you build x number of
houses in this distribution and you build in an allowance for climate change which is a
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reduction of available water as well as other factors about sustainability reductions, is
there enough water or are we providing for water? We are getting that picture
together now, and that is forming spatial planning. It is getting an overview. It is not
just what Thames Water say about Thames Water area or what South East Water
say in the South East Water area. It is two way. We are getting this advice which
gives us messages, some of them quite strong and some of them counter-intuitive in
terms of whether there is enough water. That then informs the regional planning
policy, which will eventually drill down to certain reservoirs coming forward.

We are not pre-judging whether they are going to get planning permission but in our
view we have got every 20 year period to supply these houses and actually to adapt
to climate change. For example, we need to be looking at schemes that store water
in winter and release it back in the summer. I think it is important regionally.
Locally there is a lot of opposition, however there is a growing acceptance even if it
affects very few people.

Mark Elliot
There is also a role to be played with other documents, like the Catchment flood
management plans which are zoning areas of land for different adaptations. Other
examples are where we are talking about the other parts of river catchments,
encouraging land use changes which store water, for example. Or restoration of
flood plains in certain zones. Those plans also have quite an important adaptation
role to play as well. It is where all these plans interact with each other really, is the

John Firth
Is there a missing piece of this jigsaw where, even when we come up with all these
pieces in the jigsaw about what the spatial strategy looks like, we are still left with
the question of how to implement it? How does it get from this is exactly what we
ought to be doing, these are the standards, this is the guidance and the range of
options that ought to be thought about to actually somebody actually doing
something. How do you get people who have responsibility? Agencies are funded
under different regimes. How do you actually get them to do it?

David Payne
One of the missing pieces is finding the tools for implementation. The spatial
planning is the framework. There are only a few things in the spatial planning
framework which can be implemented through the town planning system. There are
all these other things, such as making space for water and influencing the landowners
to make the change which don‟t fit in spatial planning. It is not going to be planning.
Planning has got nothing to do with that really. It is going to be funding to encourage
the landowner to manage his land better. It might be the Environment Agency
buying the land and engineering it, or it might be a voluntary agreement every ten
years to flood the land. But it is not planning permission. It is not going to need a
planning application. But it should be in a spatial plan.

Richenda Connell
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I think we should leave that there and move onto a short presentation.

We would like some extra thoughts from you about things that we haven‟t yet
brought up that you think are relevant to the strategy or the guidance. So, if we can
reflect on what other cities are doing it might help us to jog our own memories a bit.

This project looked at practical policies, especially planning policies, that can help a
city adapt to climate risk. We were talking to cities about what are they doing now
to manage climate risks because a lot of them had not even begun to think about
climate change. We were looking at the ESPACE 2 issues – flooding and water
resources, but we also looked at high temperature effects as well. We looked at 18
different cities (some were not quite cities – they were border areas) but you will
see we picked up Antwerp and the Netherlands on Tim‟s recommendation that we
look to these for best practice. I haven‟t actually picked anything up on these two
for this presentation because I imagine it is well known to people here, so I am
picking up on some of the other cities. I am not going to talk through all of them,
but just a few key features on some of them.

This is from another job and actually it is not published yet so I am telling you about
it but I can‟t, unfortunately, give you handouts about it at the moment. It will be
published in June, actually, in due course, but I thought it was relevant to bring it up

First of all, I will tell you a bit about Seattle. In Seattle they have had a real problem
with urbanisation leading to increased stormwater run-off that has lead to a decline
in a species of trout which they value very much. So they realised they needed to do
something to manage their stormwater run-off much better. They have come up
with a system where they have drainage fees that they charge to commercial
customers, not to residential customers. This is based on the amount of impervious
area a person has. So if somebody manages all their water on site they have a really
cheap drainage fee. It goes up by order of magnitude if they have got a lot of hard
surfaces they are running off. This case study has very strong fiscal measures to
encourage people to manage their own risks on site .

They are also looking at a system of discounts for people who develop their own
private drainage systems.

They have also developed some very interesting pilot projects for natural drain age
systems. So we have a before and after photo here which is a typical residential area
with a big wide street for all those big American cars. In the second picture here
they narrow the street quite a lot and they start to use the land on the edge of the
street for natural drainage systems. They started this kind of project off just on a
block and now they have taken it up to the scale of thousands and thousands of
residential units. They have developed their experience as they have gone along
through these scales with these pilot projects and they have got a very strong system
of monitoring how those projects work. They are doing a lot of cost benefit analysis

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and really seeing what measures are worthwhile in the cost benefit sense. It seems
to be delivering some very good results.

So this is the approach in Seattle. Natural drainage systems and some very strong
fiscal incentives for managing storm water.

If we then move on to Tokyo, there is a nice little technical example, if you like.
Tokyo, again, is urbanisation leading to flooding problems in this river basin. They
have developed this very large temporary flood storage area. Most of the time most
of the land is parkland and recreational land but they do have the Yokahama Stadium
within this reservoir and the staging has been built on pillars so floodwaters can go in
beneath it. They have also made all the infrastructure. They have here a roadway
which goes out to the stadium, which is also elevated, which can be used so people
can safely go and watch a football game with this big flood developing around them.

That is quite a nice technical fix, if you like, finding a way of managing flood waters.

We then have something which is very popular in Germany, Austria and Switzerland
– green roofs. Particularly we are talking about Lintz in Austria and the green roofs
policy that they developed. This was driven by big industrialisation in the 1970s
which meant that they were losing a lot of green light. There was this kind of feeling
that they wanted more green space, the public were concerned about health and
wellbeing. So they made a decision. When we said to them, did you do a lot of
cost-benefit analysis and how did you decide whether or not green roofs were a
good idea, they actually didn‟t have a lot of evidence to draw upon. They said, we
feel really it is a wisdom in us that we know these things are a good idea and we
don‟t need to test it. Everybody knows it.

They introduced some legally binding policy. All new buildings with flat roofs have to
have green roofs and so do underground car parks and things like this. This is a
map from the Linzt development plan and the areas in red are the areas where they
found they had the least green space and so these are the areas that they targeted
on the green roofs.

Another interesting aspect of the policy they had here is that they were giving
people subsidies if they put green roofs in (something like 10, 20, 30 euros per metre
squared of green roof) it paid for a third to a half of the cost of the green roof.
What they found was a lot of people were taking that subsidy and not actually
maintaining the green roof – it was dying. So they have changed it now so that you
only get 50% of the subsidy, upon completion of the green roof, and they hold back
the remaining 50% until they can see over a period of years that the roof is well
maintained and is going to survive long term. This is something they have learned –
that the subsidy measure had to be backed up by some sort of incentive to maintain
this thing in the long term.

David Payne

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A technical question – don‟t you have to strengthen the building to hold up the
roof? There must be a lot of cost involved in strengthening the structure.

Richenda Connell
It does depend. Some of the extensive green roof systems have a very shallow
growing medium (15cm). Sometimes it does need structural work and sometimes it
doesn‟t. The intensive green roofs do tend to be very big and heavy.

We have talked about no regrets but no one has talked about win-win solutions so
far. Green roofs really come across as having multiple benefits. Storm water
retention, summer cooling, winter insulation. There really are a lot of fronts. That
is another way of making an option a popular one to go for – if you can find multiple
benefits associated with.

Moving on to water efficiency in Melbourne. Australia has had a big problem dealing
with water and it has a very long drought for the last decade or so. It is a big issue
for them. In Melbourne everybody seems massively obsessed with managing water
and preserving water – this is something you have a duty to do as a citizen. This is
achieved through public communications campaigns. Every day in the newspapers
there is input on how to reduce the amount of water you are using and how to save
water. All over the place, on television and on billboards. It is totally in everyone‟s
face all the time and it is something everybody understand the significance of to

They also have mechanisms they have developed to help them cope with particularly
severe droughts. They have drought response plans, so if the water level falls below
a particular level, say 40%, capacity, then they will stop people from even-numbered
houses from watering the garden on a Thursday and odd numbered houses on a
Friday. Then if the water level drops even further nobody can water. They have
staged restrictions they introduce. They also have permanent water savings rules
which are telling people (members of the public) that there are certain things they
should always be doing to save water. They have really stiff penalties – thousands
and thousands of dollars for a penalty if you water the garden when you are not
allowed to. They have a water system (like the Seattle system) where if you use a
very small amount of water then per litre the water is very cheap. If you use a high
amount of water then you are paying three or four times the amount for the water.
So it is directly rewarding beneficial behaviour and you really suffer if you start to be
wasteful. There is a very clear link between rewarding the behaviour you want with
money in your pocket.

The final thing is, they have a rebate scheme where if you buy a specially water
efficient shower then they give you a contribution towards the cost of that shower.

A really comprehensive package of measures, aimed very much at the general public
and getting them to do the right things with water.

Fran Wallington
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Is that public water?

Richenda Connell
Yes, it is public, so it is a different situation from ours.

In Belgium and Germany they are getting more and more of these systems where
you collect the rainwater off the roof of these big flat buildings and you put it to use
for things like washing trains.

In Flanders in Belgium I gather they have now made it obligatory that you have to
install these rainwater harvesting systems. I think it is only in new buildings over a
certain size and commercial properties. But, again, it comes across as the idea of not
wasting water. What used to be the case was that getting rid of this water was a
problem – the big flat roofs collected rain and when it rained suddenly they had a lot
of water to deal with. They turned that idea on its head and said you have got a
resource that you are wasting and you should be doing something with it – not
worrying how to get rid of it.

A couple of temperature related points. I am going to tell you about our heat health
warning systems. I don‟t know if you have heard of these. These are systems where
you have meteorological information that tells you that in two days time it is going
to be very high temperatures and people may die as a result. When this is known
the medical services start to develop some actions to respond. They will go and visit
elderly people to make sure they don‟t fry like the Parisian pensioners did in 2003.
They will be a heat line set up so people can phone in for advice. They will make
announcements in the media that it is especially hot and you should take water and
avoid walking in the sun too long. Those sort of practical measures aimed at the
general public.

In Philadelphia they have this great „buddy‟ system which was actually set up to help
people deal with crime. People would go and visit the elderly in the community to
ensure they were okay. They had a vision of a community that looked out for older
people in the community and they started to exploit that same buddy system for the
heat health warning system and they found everybody was happy to take care of a
few of the vulnerable old people in their own local community and would make sure
they would go and visit them.

They had a similar system in Lisbon. They did a survey recently in Lisbon to see how
many people had picked up the heat health warning system to see how effective they
had been. They found that a very high number of people had actually read or heard
the advice. They found a distinctively lower take up of the information by the elderly
and the lower educated. Certainly in the case of the elderly, the most vulnerable
group members, not picking up the information was disappointing. They found as
well that, certainly in summer 2003, the media lost interest with this issue by the end
of the summer. They had a lot of forest fires to deal with and the media said they
were not going to bother reporting this any more as there was more exciting news

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to report and this was happening every week. So there was an issue of „fatigue‟.
People getting bored of being told the same thing and they stopped taking it in.

Those are practical systems that are very much about community engagement and
involvement and use of the media to communicate messages. When I asked people
in these cities how do you know the system works /how many lives has it saved, they
would normally say they couldn‟t actually prove it that but they think it is a good
system because it predicts 1000 deaths and then 1000 deaths happen. So the system
is really perfect. Doesn‟t sound quite right to me! There is something a bit wrong

It does point to the importance of monitoring the effectiveness of what you are
doing. It is something we picked up earlier on, the idea of decision making criteria
and success and monitoring. Something that has come through again in our
discussions this afternoon.

John Firth
I think it also picks up on Tim‟s point about the threshold, the sticking point. If you
monitor you are more likely to understand when they are about to happen.

Richenda Connell
I have just drawn together what I think are the main messages that came through.
There are obviously another bunch of case studies I haven‟t told you about, but
these are the real success factors to managing climate risks in these places.
Communication, fiscal incentives and disincentives that directly reward the behaviour
you want to see, a good evidence base, monitoring and testing etc. Regulation in
some cases really was the thing that made the difference, made it happen. In Linsbon
they had a voluntary scheme for these green roofs and hardly anyone was doing it.
Then they made it regulation and suddenly everyone is doing it and nobody
complains any more.

The other thing that came through in a load of case studies was this concept of how
it is not all about traditional engineering solutions. It is about combining those
solutions with more natural „go with the flow‟ type of mechanisms. It is the
combination of innovative (they shouldn‟t be because they are old and natural!)
solutions with hard engineering seems to be some of the most well thought out
measures that people are taking.

I am going to leave that there.

When we come back from coffee we will reflect on these and ask if we think these
are things we have already discussed this morning, is it something new you haven‟t
thought of for ESPACE, and carry on from there.

John Firth
What we would like to do for the final closing session is try and go back to
something Richenda started earlier which is the concept of the jigsaw. Not knowing
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where all the pieces are, not knowing what the colours on the jigsaw are and not
really knowing what picture it gives us. What is a spatial strategy? What would it
look like?

What we would like you to do now is think more about some of the pieces we have
identified (we might want to go back and question some of those). Is this the sort of
thing you were expecting to come up with? Are there issues you think ought to be
part of the strategy we have not picked up on at all? Perhaps using some of the
comments Richenda made in her last presentation about the experience looking at
cities generally across the world. The conclusions to come to. Is there anything on
there? Is this what you thought some of the components of spatial strategy might
be? Is there anything fundamentally missing?

Reinhard Schmidtke
There are some pieces, so we have to structure them now. Then we will find the

John Firth
Is it starting to give you a picture yet at all? Do you think that you can‟t see what
the picture is yet but something is appearing out of it.

Fran Wallington
Can I go the other way and say we could just focus on the things that have not
appeared here but have appeared in what Richenda has presented. Which to me
seems like they were very much implementation issues. Going back to what David
said that if you have a spatial strategy delivering implementation, and the
implementation issues we focussed on there were very much based on fiscal
incentives and legislation, can we work with spatial strategies to deliver that? That
seemed to me the biggest gap. Is this a piece of the jigsaw? Maybe it is, but can
spatial strategies fill that gap?

David Payne
Also, what can be delivered in a city, an urban environment? It all seems to be
delivering in a rural environment but the organisations, the mechanisms may be
different, looking at your examples of the cities. I think the spatial bit of this is
maybe what is missing - the principles and site specific adaptations about the spatial

John Firth
I don‟t want to do too much on what each individual project has been doing. I will
just expand on what has ESPACE, in terms of its projects, what comments has it
made about what those spatial principles might be. Do you think there is anything
that comes out of the project so far?

Doogie Black

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Is where we are at the moment more guidance on how a spatial strategy might
evolve, rather than coming to the end point of the spatial strategy at the moment? It
is not the forming of spatial strategy, it is guidance on how to form the spatial strategy
that is happening. I have an idea of visualisation of what that spatial strategy might
be. Process driven. I wondered.

John Firth
Bryan, do you think that is a route we have got to follow and before we get to a
spatial strategy for Europe out of the lessons of ESPACE, if that is what we could
arrive at that actually reveals how to build a spatial strategy.

Bryan Boult
I don‟t think, in my mind, that ESPACE was ever going to come up with a spatial
strategy for Europe. What is was going to try and do was to recommend how
spatial planning systems could change to enable that to happen across Europe. I
think we are some of the way there in some of the things we were talking about this
morning. I think we have got some of the building blocks. So, using Richenda‟s
analogy, we know we have got jigsaw pieces now, we know we have got colours on
those jigsaw pieces. I think, as a result of something we did this morning, and maybe
some of the principles that are coming out in the debate this afternoon, we are
beginning to see how some of those jigsaw pieces actually join together. We have
said things about how the Four As actually don‟t sit out over here, actually they are
probably in the centre now of the things we are doing. We could probably say that
a Four A piece is quite a central piece to picture.

We are also saying that one of the things we thought was important was this idea
about the different scales of planning and different timescales and the relationship
between the two. Obviously, they link together but I don‟t think we have yet
worked out how they link together. So we have got some ideas out of context. But
there are things that we don‟t know. We are still exploring together the whole idea
about information. There are differences of opinion between us at the moment
about inflation. I am not sure whether there is one piece we have got, whether
there are two pieces or whether it is not a piece at all and actually it is not a part of
the picture. That is something that, collectively, we have got to really work at over
the next few months.

That is my answer to your question. I think we are getting somewhere. I can see
pieces of it now but there are still some others we have got to work at.

Hans ten Hoeve
Do you miss or do you not miss the spatial strategy? Spatial principles? Because you
started saying it was not about spatial principles or a spatial planning system.. Can
you give an account of spatial principles? Or an idea of spatial principles? Like space
for a river.

Bryan Boult
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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
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I asked the question, a spatial strategy for Europe. That is not the same as the
principles. I think a spatial planning system has to include certain principles if it is
going to be truly adapting to climate change. So there are principles that need to be
built into it. We have learned a lot about certain principles to do with water
management. I agree with you on that. But there are other principles to do with
other features of climate change that we are only beginning to touch on. We
touched on some of that in our discussion earlier on today, and particularly with
John‟s help, where he began to force us to start thinking about economic social
issues which each of us have picked up in our case studies, but we have not been
very explicit. We have not been very clear about them. I think there are some
things there that will develop over the next few months and will come together.
They are principles in the system. They are not what a strategy will look like. I can
give you a spatial strategy for Europe. If you looked ahead 100 years a spatial
strategy for Europe would be nobody lives south of Paris. Basically because we
couldn‟t afford to keep them there. But that is stupid. But that is not what we are
aiming for. What we are aiming for is a system that you could apply whether you
are in France, Greece or Norway that actually has the same chance of building in
climate change in a realistic way and helping the citizens of that country deal with the
climate change risks.

Hans ten Hoeve
With the outcome of the ESPACE project we need greater awareness and
techniques to change the planning system. We have to recognise which aspects and
in which direction the system has changed. We also have to deliver some
perspectives for spatial principles. Then we are complete. But not the trans-national

Reinhard Schmidtke
We have a lot of pieces. Do these pieces belong to the same jigsaw? What are we
looking for? The point is, what is the guiding idea to put these pieces together? We
need such a basic idea and we have to develop it now. Then we can fill in all our
information and develop the pieces.

My idea would be that we say, okay climate change intervenes here in the planning
processes, in spatial planning. It is an additional challenge. So we should be process
orientated. How can we incorporate climate change in our processes? That is the
first thing. Then we can say, to do that we need instruments. Like strategies,
guidelines and so on. Then to follow this process we need an additional set of
instruments. That would be one system how we could collect all our information
and bring it in to the proposals.

We could follow such an approach and have instruments to bring the different
process parts.

John Firth
You were talking about how we integrate it into existing systems in the first place. Is
that like we were talking about earlier with Tim, about integrating climate change
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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
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into decision making and transitional phases. We look at how we make decisions
now ,try and build climate change in, but at some point in time we may have to be a
bit more radical.

Tim Reeder
Maybe we need to think about Bryan‟s 100 year thing so we know where we might
end up. I am not saying that is what we should produce, but we work it out. I am
trying to get into the London plan that if we slow down climate change we put off
the point at which we have to move out of London. I haven‟t said we will be safe in
London because I don‟t think we will. In the long term are we going to have to
move out? That is your line „south of Paris‟ analogy. I think we have to have that

Going back to the Winchester workshop, we came up with one or two suggestions
such as nomadic planning response. I am not saying we should have that, but we
need to have a vision so that we can see. That is very much what we are doing in
Team 2100. We are trying to find out what the end point is, ie how much sea level
rise can we cope with, past that point we are going to have to go, do something, be
radical. We know the current point, which is here and now. It is mapping a route
between where we are going now and our future. I think if we don‟t think a bit
about that future we will come up with a tool that won‟t cope with the full range of
what we are going to do.

Hans ten Hoeve
I don‟t agree with that view, that Armageddon view. Because it will disturb the
political feeling at this moment. We will be isolated. When you start the practical
process if some of the effects are going to be dramatic, like London, we will discover
that in the process. It is far better than proclaiming it now, saying in interviews
there is a projection for the long term future. So I advise you not to use such an
instrument to project.

John Firth
There are some issues there coming up. One was Bryan and Tim talking about
perhaps we need to think about what that picture might look like and then try and
find the pieces; or there is the alternative view that we have no idea what the picture
might look like, let‟s collect some pieces we think might be appropriate and see what
we end up with.

Tim Reeder
I agree with Reinhard. What I am saying is we don‟t want to end up with a process
that can‟t cope eventually with what we are facing.

Reinhard Schmidtke
But I think we have to be careful. We are not the only group producing a project
and I have seen a lot of papers describing visions. Strategic aspects. We have the
position where we say we have the province in our country and we have to develop
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a good practice to implement climate change. That is what we do with the case
study here. So that is what our politicians look for. Not only this general discussion
about climate change strategies and visions and so on. But let us put these things in
the process and we need for developing a long term vision or strategy and then we
can bring it in and lets say how to cope with uncertainty in regional climate change

Then in England and Germany and Belgium and the Netherlands we can show the
state of the art and what we recommend. We have our work done up to now. It is
implemented in a final document. Then we can take what is transnational, what is
national and the specific aspects of a special area, and so on. I think that could be a
system that works.

Hans Weber
I think we had a very successful discussion this morning. Concrete measures have
increased. But it is a problem for me. Adaptation to climate change. Adaptation is
necessary in a lot of sectors and I think we have to focus on some points which we
will treat with more detail. In my opinion we can‟t cover the wide range of
adaptation measures in the different sectors. We have to constrain ourselves to
some points.

Chitra Nadarajah
That is very true, and I think part of what we are trying to do is use the detail of the
partner actions to draw transnational lessons that could then form part of this
jigsaw. So tt is both – it is having the evidence to say we have done this work at this
level and that has taught us these lessons which we think have some relevance
beyond just Netherlands, Belgium or Germany, and therefore those principles need
to be included in any spatial planning process.

Reinhard Schmidtke
We can bring all this information into our final document, because we can say in
each chapter what is general, what are different aspects, and then we can say special
aspects in flood protection, special aspects in other things that have to be done in
ESPACE. We can go from the general aspects to specific aspects which were
elaborated here in this partnership. So we can use all the work that has been done.
It is in the system. I think we have to discuss that and find a solution on how to
structure the final document.

Fran Wallington
Should we be looking for chapter headings. We have talked about what we have
done, our experiences. We are starting to talk about local process orientated
outcome. From what we have done we are starting to learn that this process might
take you through and then different partners develop these different tools to help
you implement that process.

John Firth

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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
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I am not disagreeing with you, but isn‟t the problem when you sit down and write a
book, write a story. You have usually got some thought in your mind of what the
ending is, what the start is and what the middle bit is. I think we have got chapters, if
you want to call them that, but I don‟t know what the book is.

Reinhard Schmidtke
The red line from the beginning to the end. In a book you have some side stories
and so on. We can bring those in.

John Firth
I think we have some things on the red line. I think we have Doogie‟s work on the
Four As. That is something. Whether we want to call it that the central piece or
what. There is something there. I think there has to be a process in this. It can‟t
just be a vision. It has to be step by step logic.

Mark Elliot
You talked in the break about, rather than it being a jigsaw maybe it being a diagram.
If we have got pieces building up like this and we have got certain elements that
overlap, like the four As, maybe that is where we want to be heading. It is actually
coming up with recommendations based on bits of the jigsaw that overlap, so we
have got a way forward which covers as many bases as possible. So we are planning
in the broadest possible way by focussing on the common factors throughout. So
that we are not taking people off in tangents but we are finding the broadest way

John Firth
I think all these things will be useful. I am not quite sure how they fit together but
let‟s keep it going and see where they take us. Over time we may see if there is a
gap there.

Reinhard Schmidtke
I think we have to tell a story that starts with the climate change impacts. What are
the climate change impacts? Then we go through and we end with implementation
of best practice strategies in differing activity which we will work out in the
partnership. That way we tell a story as we go through the process. So that is a red
line and everybody can follow it. I agree with the Four As. But the Four As are not
interlinked and not in a red line hierarchy. They are pieces but they are not inter-
related like in a story. I think it is difficult to use such headlines for chapters and
telling stories.

Christine Seaward
In reading books around the subject (talking about books and stories) my problem
with most of the books that I read is that they tell a story of the things I already
know. They don‟t actually advance to the chapter that I really want to read at the
end of the book, which is what do I do differently?

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We have collected a lot of information, it is very useful, we have learned things. So
what are we going to do differently? I think we have identified how we might do
something differently, with the behaviour change principles that we have identified. I
think my personal expectation is that we still need to find and articulate what. Even
if we decide to put so me limitations on that „what‟ , because we would like to
change but we haven‟t had the time, what are the most important things that feed
into the „what‟? Without it I think I would end up feeling quite unsatisfied about the
outcome of the project.

John Firth
I‟ll turn it back to you then. What has your work led you to think, and is there a
spatial strategy role?

Christine Seaward
I don‟t know. But I do know there are some things I won‟t do the way I have done
them before. So maybe that is halfway there.

John Firth
Knowing what you won’t do is important, because that means you won‟t repeat

Christine Seaward
One of the examples that I think might be useful is how decision making and
implementation relate to each other. If you are not confident about making a
decision then there is the temptation to continue to ask for further information until
you have that confidence. Fran‟s example illustrated how you can develop a trust
between people that means they don‟t need more information all the time. It is
something to do with information and trust.

Another big one for me is time. We talked about that in terms of timescales of
decision making. One of the things our organisation has got to change is the ability
to look short, medium or long term. I haven‟t got the answer to it but I know that it
is different.

I am absolutely certain from what you said this morning that there is something in
there about economics. I am wondering about the real drivers . We haven‟t put
that in. When you put the barriers order up this morning, nobody had this or this
incentive. We haven‟t done that work but it was triggered by something you were
talking about on social and economic drivers.

John Firth
It is interesting, that most of the incentive for doing something about New Orleans
and the insurance industry is the economics. It isn‟t the environmental issue that is
driving adaptation and climate change awareness in the US.

Fran Wallington

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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
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Do we need to set out some climate change principles for spatial planning. Do we
need to have an input into the argument of why spatial planning should be
incorporated into principles. Does that need to be an introduction to the output of

John Firth
I think nobody has done that. There are possibly integrated adaptation models
around the world that attempt to model in the economics but they are extremely
unclear trying to model the climate or the economies of the world and say what is
going to happen next in another matter. We have picked up on the UK
Government which has got the „Stern‟ enquiry which is trying to look at the
economics and the impacts of climate change.

Metroeconomica have done work on how to cost the impacts. But it is not being
modelled through how it will affect economies, how it will affect business decisions
which is really a big issue.

I don‟t think there is any intention that ESPACE will end up with every single jigsaw
piece‟. They should all come together and form the picture. However, I don‟t think
it is quite like that. It strikes me as perfectly okay to say there is a big important
piece missing here, and for ESPACE then to jump up and shout about it. It needs
some leadership to explain those pieces because other people often don‟t appreciate

Bryan Boult
It may indeed be something that we are asked to continue as a partnership to
explore it.

Hans ten Hoeve
We have to create confidence. We recognise climate change. Climate change has
spatial effects and spatial principles can help us. On the other hand institutional
factors are reacting and will influence our spatial development. When we don‟t
recognise that, when we don‟t interact with that it can cause economic and social

That is what we recognise, and I think ESPACE tries to have relevance to the spatial
planning system. That is what our contribution is. On different levels we have case
studies, pilots, starting new strategies at national levels. That is where we fill the gap.
So we construct this story and assumption according to the Four As. It is not an
overnight success. It is working hard. It is understanding the system. It is hitting
every day. Trying to focus what is today. I think that is the story. That is what we
have to fill in. We have to put our case studies to this structure.

Chitra Nadarajah
One of the issues we are dealing with in ESPACE is that we have got four different
countries with four different systems. Whatever we come up with has to speak to
all of those different systems. Which is why we are trying to make the pieces of the
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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
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jigsaw as transnational as possible, whereas some of the case studies and pilot
projects have come up with very specific solutions that perhaps will not apply across
the four countries. Maybe they do. We don‟t know that quite yet. That is another
level of complexity on top of everything else.

Hans ten Hoeve
I think it is transnational. The operational sides may be different.

Reinhard Schmidtke
I think there is a generic process and I think we can stretch the final document. We
should say whether it fits in better here or there, or it is a national speciality, or that
it is transnational. But we have to develop this structure and fill in our results of our
cases in that system. I think a tree because there is no red line. It is a tree – it looks
nice – but who gets the information from which study? We have to bring that
together and link it so we can have appendices with the case studies.

Hans ten Hoeve
The tree is really a metaphor. It is how far you have come. It has some strategy
element to it too. We construct an approach, we adjust our case study examples
and inspiration. Then we make the next steps and get onto the final story.

Reinhard Schmidtke
We have to have this final story with some bullet points for adapting climate change
on the first page.

Richenda Connell
Can I just pick up a point that a couple of people have made about case studies may
work in the country they are developed in but not across the board. I know that
some of the work has been looking at transferring guiding models to the UK and
seeing if it works. Are there many plans for that kind of, lets look at your case study
and try it here? Have you got that built into the last year in quite a big way? That
could reveal the transnational elements of these things, maybe.

David Payne
It is limited.

Mark Goldthorpe
But is that part of the guidance we should be developing on how to draw up a spatial
theme? How to interrogate examples which arise either in this project or from
other projects in other countries. How do you interrogate it and look for the
transnationality or the transferability? How we use the examples in a year‟s time.

Chitra Nadarajah
The ideal scenario for ESPACE would have been exactly that. But the reality is that
we can‟t. It is far more difficult. The incentives are really there for the Netherlands
to test the decision testing tool or for us to test the guiding models. We are

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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
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looking at what lessons came out of it and whether those lessons apply in other
countries. I think David has pulled some lessons from the guiding model in his work.

David Payne

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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
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The guidance from the Netherlands came out very early and has the Dutch national
plan principles in it as well as the water tests and things like that. So there are things
that have been drawn immediately into the project. I think we have used it and
charted it when we have been able to. The last 18 months is when we really need
to keep looking.

Richenda Connell
Do you have any view, having tried the guiding models, how big a job it is? Is it the
sort of thing you could do locked in a room together for a day getting a view?

David Payne
Yes. That is what we did. It is quite obvious sometimes. Out of the 10 guiding
models, some are radical, some aren‟t even theoretical (even in Holland). The
situation wouldn‟t necessarily be the same as the UK. Some are much clearer and
you can obviously use it because it is adapting our own systems eg- adapting
catchment management plans. There are others about developing greenhouses and
converting water. It sounds mad but there are market garden areas in the south east
and maybe that is transferable. So it is a mix. Things like water testing. We have got
sustainability appraisal. It is adapting your own procedures to reflect what others
are doing.

Bryan Boult
Isn‟t that the lesson that is going to come out from ESPACE? Because we can‟t be
sure that the things we are coming up with are applicable to every other country
across Europe, let alone the world as a whole. But what we can come up with is
the process and the sort of end result that David has just described. This shows that
you can, by doing these things, change your existing systems to give them more
capacity and more resilience.

The accumulative effect of that would be to change the spatial planning system. That
may be as far as we can get. We might be able to get even further by saying this is
definitely how you should do it.

Tim Reeder
One of the things we have produced is an attractive CD of the tools we have
developed. We have the guiding model and the German tool on the same thing.
They fly around and make comparisons.

Hans Weber
The key for progress is the case studies. I would propose that every partner
describes and tells a short story of its case study. Then this description can be
distributed among the partners. That would help us to have a common view of the
different case studies and actions realised in the last 2-3 years, and then with this
common information base we could continue this discussion and find out the
common elements of a new strategy. For the moment I think that the different
actions are not very high and very different.

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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
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Richenda Connell
So you are saying that you don‟t know enough about each other.
Fran Wallington
Is the information on the action analysis?

Hans Weber
The other point, every partner describing a short story means to explain the system,
the planning system in which he has worked and that would be helpful for us also for
comparing the different planning systems. If not, we are discussing different points of
planning, different levels, and it is difficult for us to find a common level.

Chitra Nadarajah
We have that information base from the first bit of work we did at ESPACE.

Reinhard Schmidtke
I agree with Hans. It would be very useful to get more detailed information on what
you have done and in which system, what the are the results and the special barriers.

Richenda Connell
Is this a shared view then? That you don‟t know enough about what each other is

Reinhard Schmidtke
In detail.

Eric Kuindersma
What we are talking about is a new European approach. In my opinion there is a
very big hole and I don‟t think we should have that. We are reacting on things
which we see and which we think are important for Europe. Europe needs to se our
vision and use it as a trigger for the rest of Europe to continue.

John Firth
Chitra, given the information in ESPACE, is it possible to develop a series of simple,
good overviews of the process maps for each of the projects we have already got? Is
it something we can actually do?

Chitra Nadarajah
I think you would have to ask the partners that question, because they would
actually do that. I think the actual analysis goes some way towards doing that.
Trying to identify the barriers, gaps, lessons learned, the way you shifted the actions.
It was, in a way, mapping.

Eric Kuindersma
It is our way of thinking as a group, and saying we have some pieces of the jigsaw
which are important for the total strategy based upon the ideas of some local and
regional authorities. We don‟t want to be overly ambitious yet, and that is why I use
the cliff-hanger. To say ESPACE will lead to a new approach – I think that is too big.
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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
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Bryan Boult
The thing I have heard from speaking to a number of people who are interested in
the subject across the whole of Europe is that what ESPACE is doing is way ahead of
anybody else. We are asking questions and coming up with answers that are of great
interest to many people across Europe and all different levels of government. So I
am quite confident that what ESPACE comes up with will actually be of interest to
people in Europe.

What I am not confident about is because ESPACE can only look at the experiences
of very specific water issues in the context of north east Europe, that means that we
have got enough evidence to say the spatial planning system approach that we would
recommend would cover all the aspects of climate change adaptation. I don‟t think
we can do that. But I think we can put down some fairly strong markers as to what
we think that bigger system should take account of. I think we have got a lot of it

I must admit I am a bit intrigued by the need to go back to looking at the case
studies in more detail because I think actually rather than the18 months that David
talked about, we have only actually got 12 months. Because if we are going to
actually have an event at the beginning of July that means we have got to have
written what we are having an event about before July and we are now mid-May so
we may as well say it is 12 months from now. So we have got 12 months, not 18. In
that 12 months we have got to pull together and put some substance on quite a lot
of the issues we have discussed today. Plus some others we have not yet discussed.
I think that is a very tight timetable.

I think what the partners have got to do over the next 12 months is actually a very
steep gradient to start with and then it evens off. So most of the work of the
partners has got to be done over the next six months.

We have really got to be certain about the issues that are the steps in Reinhard‟s
process, the chapters in Reinhard‟s book, the branches in Hans‟ tree. or whatever
analogy you want to use – it doesn‟t really matter. The pieces of the jigsaw. We
have got to be really certain about what they are and what the evidence is for us to
lead on that.

I think we have got that. We have actually now got to start pulling it out. That is a
job for us. It is not a job for Richenda and John. It is not just for Chitra and me. It
is for everyone at the table to pull it out and put it together in a package. What that
package might be I don‟t know. It might be a book. If it is a book I suspect most
people won‟t read it. It might be ten bullet points, which most people will. I don‟t
know what it will be. But we have got a lot of work to do in a very short time.

We have put a lot of work into the action analysis that we have done. That has
come up with a very large number of individual answers to the common barriers and
issues we identified. What we have got to try and do is to weave those together
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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                  8 May 2006
ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                   8 May 2006

into a consistent story. They are at different scales, dealing with slightly different
issues. We have got to try and pull that together. That is the bit that needs to be

I am sitting here listening to the debate thinking, people are making some good
points but the thing I am concerned about is how we move on from here in a very
short timescale to do something that is very meaningful. If we don‟t do that then we
are actually going to get to next May and we are not going to have the thing we
started out with the idea of doing four years ago.

Bryan, can I just ask you in total ignorance what mechanisms you have put in place
for people to make these contributions for pulling it together and what
opportunities are there for exploiting those?

Bryan Boult
The mechanism is we have appointed consultants. The first step was an analysis of
the partner actions in a more detailed and cross-cutting way, which is what we were
doing this morning, building on the partner analysis spreadsheets and coming up with
some clear, consistent and coherent issues out of that.

The second step is the ideal of what the transnational strategy should be. We are
going to be picking up on that, using some of the issues we have been talking about
here. So what that strategy might be in terms of a process, in terms of the stages in
that process, whether it has branches in it.

The third thing is developing what the final bit of ESPACE looks like. We need to
think about how to bring everything together using examples from other projects
that are going on through and beyond the extended partnership. I don‟t think we
should forget the work that is going on through the extended partnership. Trying to
bring that together into a coherent package.

That is three bits of work but it is one piece of work in terms of what we are doing.
We have got a conference in November which will be held in the Netherlands. We
are going to be discussing this on Wednesday. What is that conference going to do?
What are we going to talk about?

Richenda Connell
Again, in all ignorance, has everyone here got a number of days, not just at these
events but in between when they know they are going to be spending, say ten days,
worrying about this? Has everyone got allotted time for spending on this already
built into their programmes?

Bryan Boult

Richenda Connell
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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                    8 May 2006
ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                 8 May 2006

So there is a question of how we use that time between workshops, and how we get
people to contribute between workshops. Is that process ascribed to at the

Chitra Nadarajah
The most critical point of the actual analysis exercise was partly to draw the lesson
and partly to shift the focus in partners‟ minds from individual actions to these
overall outputs and to start before you have even finished your actions (because, as
David said, some of you are still delivering) to start thinking about how everything
you do is now contributing to these overall outputs.

I think we always knew that the last events would be led by this concept of how we
have come up with these outputs. It is just the fact that from here on (we said this
at the last workshop as well actually) it is part of your day job in terms of ESPACE.
It is not just delivering your actions any more. It is delivering your actions plus
looking at how they contribute to the overall outputs.

Bryan Boult
I would like to pick up one very important action that has started in planning but has
not yet been delivered. That is the national conference that VROM is organising.
They have started in the sense that the organising is going on, but it hasn‟t happened
yet. It is happening in February 2007. That is going to be very late on in our
process. But some of the outcomes from that conference are absolutely
fundamental to our package. What that conference will be looking at for member
state and member state spatial planning policy levels, is the issues that they think
they need to take into account to change their systems and make them more
adapted to climate change.

I don‟t know if you want to say anything about that, Hans?

Hans ten Hoeve
It is February 2007, because next half year we are developing our national strategy.

Bryan Boult
The other thing that is going on is that at the moment the European Commission is
in the process of preparing a Green Paper on climate change adaptation and that
Green Paper will be launched at a conference in November this year. So that is
another important piece of the package.

Chitra Nadarajah
I think that the point that one of your key actions in ESPACE is so late in the project
is quite a good example of how we are using the experience we have gained over the
last three years, looking at what we want to achieve and holding the event to try and
get what we want out of it now that we know what we might need. It is that sort of
thinking that we need to apply to everything. Looking ahead now rather than just
concentrating on here and now in what we are doing.
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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                  8 May 2006
ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                 8 May 2006

Hans ten Hoeve
In my opinion we can‟t wait for this conference and then put the pieces together.
That is not working. Two tracks, one is an out track – developing outcome,
comparing them in February with other states, state levels. That has an outcome,
agenda, issues, research for policy development. But I agree with your picture that
the next six months before our meeting in November we need to have our concept.
Because then we have to fill in and tune it and see the opportunities and gaps to fill
in. We have some mechanism to interact this experience.

Reinhard Schmidtke
What we need now is a principle decision on what is the end product which we
deliver. What is this document? My idea is to have a final document and we have
answers for each partner. Each partner has one final document of all his activities,
and the most interesting information from that goes into that common final

I think we have to decide it now. Then we can decide what are the chapters, what
is fed into the chapters from the partners, what is generic, what is specific in the
process and in the instruments used. I think we can‟t postpone that. Otherwise
we have our projects for the next 6 months and we have no idea how to put this
together. As a consultant, I say come to this decision and develop a timetable for
this process. A strict timetable otherwise you will run out of time. That is what I
would do in the position of the leading partner. Otherwise we will lose all this time.
You need this decision.

Mark Elliot
It sounds like we almost need, with all the expertise here in one place now, to start
putting together what we think those bullet points are going to be. If we think that
one of the outputs is going to be an executive summary with bullet points we should
work out what our key recommendations are, and need to be, and then we then
spend the rest of the next six months putting flesh on those bullet points. We are
almost at a point where we should know, really, what those key recommendations
should be.

Richenda Connell
Not quite yet. Some of them are recommendations. Are you talking more about
the form of the output?

Mark Elliot

Bryan Boult
I am going to say we don‟t have time to do that. Maybe if we knew that then we
could have done that in the session just before lunch, but that was when we were
trying to get those key pieces together. In that session before lunch we found it very
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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                  8 May 2006
ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                 8 May 2006

difficult to get the pieces together, so I don‟t think people have got those bullet
points in their heads. But, in case you have, I am going to say to you, tomorrow
morning before you come on the field trip, if you write down on a piece of paper the
ten bullet points in your head, on Wednesday we have a session to talk about in
project conference. Come to the meeting on Wednesday with those 10 bullet
points and we can discuss what they are.

I suspect that most of you sitting round the table, now your hearts have sunk
because you haven‟t got 10 bullet points in your head. But for those of you who
have, or if you have got one, do that now. We will catch that on Wednesday and
see how it comes together.

We are now at 4.30 and we have still got some things to do. We have now got to
wrap this up very quickly.

Richenda Connell
What we wanted to talk about is how we would carry on working with you on this
over the coming months. My feeling is that I don‟t feel in a position to do that
without your discussion on Wednesday. The biggest concern for me is people
doing work between the workshops. Not expecting to solve the problems of the
world on the day of the workshop. I think that the main issue is what mechanisms
have you got to work together? What is the work plan for people between the
workshops, and who is responsible for developing that work plan for everybody
here, or is it already defined in your proposal?

We need to be exploiting every opportunity we can to be understanding more from
you directly. I don‟t know whether there are any other meetings, or other
opportunities, for us to come to meetings and use some of those meetings for
strategies. I don‟t know what you have planned.

Jill Rankin
Can I suggest that we do have technology such as the discussion boards already
available for everyone to talk very openly on specific chapter headings. We have got
the extended partners discussion board and we have also got a partners only
discussion board which people use. So perhaps we could start building up a profile
on there.

Richenda Connell
I will maybe have to start using that. Is that something you have used before as a
way of working together between meetings?

Jill Rankin
We have tried.

Fran Wallington

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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                 8 May 2006
ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                     8 May 2006

Is there a way that we can post a message on the board that the partnership can
identify as a new message? Because then at least it encourages people to go on. It
could be an automatic link that there is a new discussion.

Jill Rankin
We could look into that.

Richenda Connell
We do need to be working with you and I am really pleased to hear everybody has
time allotted in their timetable between now and November to spend time with us
and to develop this view. It is obviously something we have to do jointly.

I think that the project management timetable work needs to be done in some detail.
Does everybody here come to Wednesday‟s meeting? Nearly everybody. The core

Chitra Nadarajah
I think there are two sides to this. All partners are continuing to deliver their
actions, but they also have to contribute to this. In some ways we also need to
make a decision as to how that is going to happen on behalf of the partners. To
expect it to happen is not ideal and it probably won‟t happen then, so it is going to
have to be very specific, at which point do we need to talk to partners and how do
you want to talk to partners – e-mail, telephone, face to face. What opportunities
do we have to talk to partners between now and the end of the project?

I think it is going to be quite difficult to decide that because every individual partner
will have a different idea of what that may be. I don‟t know the answer to that
question. I don‟t know if we will reach the answer to that question on Wednesday.

Richenda Connell
There are obviously only a certain number of days available.

Chitra Nadarajah
It is so variable. Some partners are full time ESPACE and some aren‟t. Some people
have got five days allocated per month and some people are full-time ESPACE.

Richenda Connell
So we are looking at trying to understand the level of commitment and the number
of days that people have got to engage wit us on this. How do we define that? Is
that something that is held centrally, or that individual partners know?

Richenda Connell
We need to understand the numbers of days that people have got available to work
with us on this. I don‟t know how we define that and how we understand that, but I
want you to tell us how we get that information. Obviously you can discuss it at the
meeting on Wednesday and then we need to sit down and work out a detailed

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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                     8 May 2006
ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                 8 May 2006

timetable for working with each of you. If there is a very generous travel budget,
then we can come over and see people or people can come over to the UK.

We expect to be seeing a lot more of you. I think we will be looking at quite a lot of
face to face meetings.

One thing we have started using is Skype. Has anybody used Skype? I would
recommend it to you. We can send you information about how to set it up. It is
free phone calls to each other. You just have to install a programme on your
computer and you can talk for free.

Chitra Nadarajah
Before we all run out of the door, just a few things. One, thank you very much to
Richenda and John. It has been quite a difficult day mentally, but hopefully we have
come some way and it will continue to go on. One of the things that Richenda was
talking about in the last few minutes was about how she is going to work with
partners, how we are all going to work together. I think that is a very key point that
we all need to take away. This is not just going to happen at workshops. We can‟t
just wait for a workshop to have these sort of discussions or think about these sorts
of issues. From now on it has got to be part of your everyday thinking, and it has to
be a continuous process. If it has to stop and start at every workshop, as Reinhardt
said, we are going to run out of time.

Thank you again for your contributions, the coach will leave from reception at 17:00.

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ESPACE 4th Joint International Workshop
Workshop on Action Analysis                                                 8 May 2006