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crashes

VIEWS: 9 PAGES: 47

  • pg 1
									                                     Appendix
                                   For the Term Paper
                                On Topic: People in Conflict




               Chat board conflict
          (The notes were recorded from September 11, 2001 until October 24, 2001)




Class:          51.306A Mediation                              Date: November 20, 2001
Author:         Emilia Caprndova                               Place: Carleton University
Student no.: 31 22 81




                                                                                            1
crashes.. (Fenris, Sep 11)                 (Swedish)

I'd just like to take a bit of my time to say how awfull I think what happend today in the states
today. And I cant imadgine how those who have family in the areas feel right now. I know how I
feel and I have a few friends in those areas. I now know that they are ok, but.. I hope everyone is
ok and that those who have friends or family there also are ok.. hard to know what to say more
then that..
Fenris

Re(13): crashes.. (Dracoon, Sep 11)                (US)

i have to agree but think of it like i do shit happen you cant do much about it so continue with
your life
dracoon who may seem cold

Re(14): crashes.. (Yance, Sep 11)                  (US)

did seem a bit cold

Re(14): crashes.. (Tessa, Sep 11)                  (US)

The only thing I can say is whoever did this is very sick to take so many lives of very innocent
people. And until you loose a loved one due to some unknown reason you could never imagine
how those families must feel.
Tessa who has lost 2 loved ones in the last week

Re(13): crashes.. (Karhedron, Sep 11)

My sympathies go out to everyone affected by this tragedy.
My heart bleeds. I don't know what else to say.
- Kar

Re(13): crashes.. (Mag, Sep 12)            (Slovak)

When I was told to watch the TV news immediately, I was curious what could have been so
serious... And when I found out... I felt miserable... how could this happen? Who was able to
commit something so horrible, so cruel, so unbelievable?
I was staring at the TV for at least an hour, imagining the situation, what the people out there had
to survive (if they were lucky enough)... I was looking at some photos of the tragedy put on the
inet...
I am very sad and feel very sorry for all plp out there, for their families, their friends... How could
the terrorists do something like this? so inhuman! they murdered so many people even without
having known them... ... I have not enough words to express how sad I feel about this ...
Maggie

Re(13): crashes.. (Ravird, Sep 12)                 (US)

Well, I will say, I consider myself a person that isn't easily affected by world events or tragic
things either.
I was driving in my car, listening to my CDs, when I had an urge to listen to the radio, I turned on
the radio


                                                                                                      2
and heard that two planes had been crashed into the world trade center on purpose and there was
several people killed. This really got to me and I was sad that someone could hijack an airplane
and could slam it into a build in order to kill many people. Then to learn that it happened in DC
and Penn, it didn't seem real, more like something that would happen in a movie. I wished I there
was something I could do and I couldn't stop thinking about it. Why? How? How could someone
hate enough to do this? I am aware that some cultures believe it is honorable and a good death to
go down killing many people.
Personally, it is evil, evil to murder a single person, let alone many people. I pray for those that
have wounded or killed friends or/and family and I pray for those that are wounded or were
killed.
The way things are looking, war is not far off. I will honestly say that I agree, it should be done,
the terrorist acts should be treated as an act of war.
Many people died today, lets hope this is the last time something like this happens, but sadly, I
am sure it isn't the last time...

justice shall be served (Phoebus, Sep 12)          (US)

this is the first time im writing a note, but i feel that this tragedy here in the usa deserves to be
addressed.
this attack is an direct attack on the united states and personally feel that our freedom has been
compromised my these groups of terrorist.
i being ex military devoted my life to safeguard this freedom and will do so again if have to, and
totally agree to a full retaliatory attack on whoever is responsible.
i pray for the loss of life and those who grieve.
semper fi *salutes*

Re(20): justice shall be served (Supaknight, Sep 12)                (US)

Right there with ya. Somethings gotta be done to show people that you can't attack innocent
civillians without some kinda swift and decisive punishment. I mean we should not allow
ourselves to be sitting ducks for any crazy terrorist out there who is bent on destruction. And we
must also send a message to countries or orgainizations that fund and also hide the terrorists from
the justice they so clearly deserve.
Remember this.....the longer you allow terrorism to grow without punishment or any kind of
penalty, the worse it gets. This time it was thousands, next time it could be millions.

policing the world (Pontif, Sep 12)                (US)

I don't necessarily agree with this, but here is some of the reasoning behind why US tries to police
the world a bit. The US is one of the most powerful nations in the world, militarily. We have
capabilities to help those that ask for it. I think we should use that.
For instance, Kuwait would not exist as a separate state if the US had not intervened.
Going farther back in history, if US had not attacked Germany in WWII we might be dealing with
a single state in Europe now (doubtful, but possible).
I guess basically I'm saying that the US has a lot of power. With that power comes responsibility
to help those who are powerless against aggressors. Also with that power comes the responsibility
to ensure that it is only used justly and not abused. The US is trying to do this, but we may not
always succeed. Anyway, that's a little of reasoning why US gets involved in politics, besides the
reason of defending our allies and their interests.
I want to say that personally I am scared by all the talk of Bin Laden and Afghanistan before any
details of the case are really known. Once we find who is responsible for this act I agree that we


                                                                                                        3
must not let it go unpunished. Once the perpetrator(s) of this deed are found they must be made
an example to show that terrorism is not an effective or allowable way to act.
Pontif, praying we don't come to war, but knowing that perpetrators of such acts must be brought
to justice.

Re(22): policing the world (Lancelot, Sep 12)             (Slovak)

We've discussed this on channel Pontif so I don't have to say much. Those of us, who are at least
a bit clever know what are the interests of US. And there's not usually playing a good guy,
protecting innocent (who are innocent? usually those who we protect...but the other side?)...
Everyone knows that joining a battle (even in irl) is because we don't want to protect
someone...but we're expecting something. Yeah there are people who help because they like it,
but I have some real doubts about politicians...
I wonder a bit how this will continue...and what steps will be done. I agree with Pontif that
capturing responsible is better, than killing another thousands of innocent people...
Lance.

a little joke to chill out (Ukyo, Sep 12)         (Mexican)

i heard today this on the radio, maybe it will be disgusting for some ppl
but i don't intend to offend any1.........
Mahoma Airlines, our pilots give their life to serve you.....

This whole situation (Danno, Sep 12)              (Canadian)

A few thoughts
1/ Why does everyone suspect Islamic Fundamentalists?? The teachings of Islam are dead against
doing anything like this. Their teachings on suicide and murder are incredibly more harsh than
anything the Christians, Muslims and Jews teach.
2/ After stating that he will "Make no distinction between the perpetrators and the nation that
harbors them" and with many Americans saying that they should bomb the nation responsible,
what will they do if it turns out like the OKC bombing and it was done by an American??
3/ Why does everyone think of this as an act of war?? For this to be an act of war the attackers
have to be supported by a national government. If these are indeed Terrorist acts, then they are
not committed by a country and therefore can not result in a war. If i were to launch an attack on
some nation that cost many lives, there is no concievable way that war could be brought to my
country, since i acted without their involvement or purview.
These are just a few of my thoughts, listen or discount as you will.
Danno the Gallant Swordsman (thinking)

revenge and such (Cruncher, Sep 12)               (Slovak)

I am not idealistic about the altruism of US involvement in world affairs; anyway, frankly, having
seen the scope of assault and having heard eyewitnesses, I'd gladly join in carpet-bombing half of
Middle East. On the other hand, will this make USA (or any civilized country) feel any safer?
Imho, you can't kill them all. Martyrs often inspire even more followers. Plus, politicians and
especially people around the globe have expressed solidarity with USA, even people who accuse
US of arrogance or dislike and/or fear America for whatever reason. There are flowers and
candles instead of cobblestones in front of US Embassy in Moscow. All (or big majority) of the
world will support just retaliation, however, hasty action without sufficient evidence might affect
the sentiments again.


                                                                                                    4
Jet's take (Jet, Sep 12)          (Russian, living in US)

a very dangerous situation is achieved when a person is pushed to the point of kamakazi-like
suicide. for this to happen a person has to be pushed to the limit, suicide is not easily achieved if,
and thats a big if, a middle eastern group was responsible for this catastrophe i would not be
surprised. Ever since the election of Varial Sharon (sp?) the terrorist activity against palestine has
mroe than doubled.
And i am not talking about random acts of violence; i mean gunships putting missles into
palestenian buildings. i mean armed soldiers walking into a mosque and starting to mow down
innocent muslims during prayer. In my opinion these people have been pushed to the limit and
rescently technology has made it so you can no longer force someone who is willing to die
anyway into your way of doing things. So now a palestenian pilot (theoretical) has the ability to
avenge his brother who was killed in prayer, by doing the 'terrorist' acts of sept 11 and why not
hit the nation, which is the main Israeli supporter the USA?
Seems to me that if you back someone to the wall you had better be ready for a reprieve the
events of sept 11 do not surprise me at all
my thoughts are with the families of the dead, it is time to have a compromise between Israel and
Palestine.
jet's take

Re(26): revenge and such (Ravird, Sep 12)                   (US)

Well, the reason why the government has made that choice is because Osama bin Laden(an
Islamic fundamentalist), a terrorist that has attacked the unitied states is being protected
Afghanistan. As straight off the CNN webpage, "a worldwide network blamed for both successful
and failed strikes on U.S. targets. These include the millennium bombing plot, last year's attack
on the USS Cole in Yemen and the nearly simultaneous bombings of the U.S. embassies in
Tanzania and Kenya."
There has been evidence found that links this attack to Osama bin Laden and he has been the
prime suspect by the FBI. The fact that Afghanistan won't give him up, means there would be
little choice but war. Osama bin Laden will continue the attacks upon the US and without taking
action, many more will die.

Re(22): policing the world (Johnny, Sep 12)                 (Dutch)

Just a small note Pontif: The US didn't declare war on Germany, the Germans declared war on the
US, after the Japanese bombeb Pearl Harbour.
Johnny, completely off topic.

My final words on the topic.... (Tessa, Sep 12)             (US)

To begain with I can not fathem anyone not caring about theirself or their country enough to keep
from doing foolish acts such as we have seen here.
On a nother note I personaly didnt vote for our President but he is President none the less and I
will only support him if he does the right thing in punishing who is responsiable wether it be a
single person or a whole contry, and only punishing once the person(s) are found guilty without
any doubt.
Next I would like to say that no matter what happens (war or no war) I truely believe that the
situation was indeed a test to see how strong the US really is due to the mockery that took place
of the last election. Whoever did this knew that this would indeed tell them just how strong the
US is, and I am talking the nation as a whole not just the government but also the people.


                                                                                                     5
I truely hope that my kids do not have to see a war or that any child has to go through it, but none
the less I am very supportive in our country and those who run it.
Tessa's Final thought: God Bless America, the Red White and Blue!

My perspective.... (Haralitha, Sep 13)             (US)

First off, I will remind anyone that cares that if we hadn’t gotten involved in WWII, a lot of you
would be calling Hitler "papa".
Now, for some, image is everything. In my opinion, if those over there want to spread propaganda
that we kill innocent women and children, fine by me. Let them think it is true, show them their
version of the truth of it and they will leave us the f**k alone. As far as martyrs go, there has to
be a follower left for something to be a martyr. When there isn’t, we call them "examples".
I have heard people say that these assholes are willing to die for their beliefs, guess what folks, so
do every single one of our men and women in the armed forces. They aren’t fanatics, they do not
WANT to die, but they enlist, knowing full well that that could be the outcome. My circlet is off
to each and every one of you for the trials and tribulations you may soon be facing.
Hara

Note on US and the rest of World (Blim, Sep 13)                     (US)

Lancelot, what you said about all of this, we don't do anything for the innocent? In the Persian
Gulf war i can agree, we needed the oil and we were sure the Iraq wouldn't have given it to us.
BUT on the other hand, when major earthquakes happen in South America etc. who sends aid to
those people? We didn't have to go over to Yugoslavia to save the Albanians, and we still don't
have to be there trying to disarm Albanians.
I agree that the US is not always true in its policies to protect the innocent, but for such a
powerful and wealthy country I'd say it has been doing a damn good job.
Blim

RE:Blim and Haralitha (Ravird, Sep 13)             (US)

I agree with you two 100%! I am glad to see that people that supports the US and is against
Terrorism!

Re(25): This whole situation (Hessef, Sep 13)              (US)

"Why does everyone suspect Islamic Fundamentalists?"
Maybe it's because extreme Islamic Fundamentalists call the USA "The Great Satan" and they
publicly wish for the destruction of the USA? There's quite a few people who don't like the USA
but few are even half as vocally antagonistic as extreme Islamic Fundamentalists.
And, yes, the US did suspect that the Oklahoma city bombing was done by Islamic
Fundamentalists but the government kept investigating until the proof led to Timoty McVeigh.
We know we don't have solid evidence proving who did the foul dead and that's the main reason
we haven't started sending out bomber jets yet.
"The teachings of Islam are dead against doing anything like this." Power corrupts. Religious
positions often bring power. History shows that, yes, religious positions can corrupt.
Also, corruption happens in any sufficiently large groups--it's quite possible to find corrupt
Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Pagans, Atheists, computer programmers, athletes, poker
players, animal breeders, etc., etc.
But, on the other hand, anyone who assumes that all Muslims want to bomb the US to bits is
extremely wrong (not to mention the fact that such prejudice is often a danger to domestic


                                                                                                    6
tranquility.)
"Why does everyone think of this as an act of war?"
Can you name another man-caused event in US history that had this many deaths of US citizens
that weren’t considered an act of war? One famous US landmark is now rubble and the head
office of the military is now a smoldering graveyard of at least 100 workers.
"If these are indeed Terrorist acts, then they are not committed by a country and therefore can not
result in a war."
Anything can start a war. World War I got started by a terrorist murdering an Austro-Hungarian
archduke. In South America, two countries started a war over a soccer match. All it takes to start
a war is just one leader that is willing to send out the troops--and, due to a NATO decision, there's
far more than one leader willing to do so.
"If i were to launch an attack on some nation that cost many lives, there is no concievable way
that war could be brought to my country, since i acted without their involvement or purview."
In American law, you can be held guilty in a murder case by assisting the murderer. If there's
proof that another nation is harbouring and protecting the terrorist leaders, war is likely.

Something someone shared with me... (Keli, Sep 13)                  (US)

I was sent this as an email. I thought I would share it with all that I could. I am not looking for a
reply. I just thought those Americans on here might like to read it. And maybe some of our
friends. I have been feeling very bad lately, like all those in Europe I called friend are now
attacking me b/c I am American....
TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES
> This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.
> America: The Good Neighbor.
> Widespread but only partial news coverage was given > recently to a remarkable editorial
broadcast from > Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television > Commentator. What
follows is the full text of his > trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional
> Record:
> "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and
possibly the > least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent,
Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of
dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the
interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in
1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and
 their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
> When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59
American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the
Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those
countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
> I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States
dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the
Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
 If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American
planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon?
You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy,
and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon -
not once, but several times - and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans
put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not
pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking
Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.


                                                                                                     7
> When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the
Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went
broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
> I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble.
Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't
think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
> Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them
get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they
are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope
Canada is not one of those."
> Stand proud, America! Wear it proudly!! This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read
regarding the United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that the rest of the
world would realize it. We are always blamed for everything, and never even get a thank you for
the things we do.

Re(13): crashes.. (Lilkinjita, Sep 13)

It was horrible Fernis, waking up in the morning and all of the sudden hearing about New York
and the Penitgon, then hearing about 2 planes still out there and just on and on and on, It shut
down my work, and security is insane around my area. I don't feel comfortable at all now, every
time I hear a large airplane flying around I keep looking up. I hope for this damn nightmare to
end soon and so every one can continue with our lives. I actually did a full day of work with what
little sleep i had and all of were talking about now there's a war and how all the cell phone calls
are being checked for those hours before the crashes.
I'm glad things are some what under control and people are out there helping out, i'm dontating
money to the cause and hope to donate blood soon too =)
LilKinjita not liking crashing planes Druid

Re(16): crashes.. (Lilkinjita, Sep 13)

Sorry to hear Tessa =(, I have to agree the attackers were very sick on doing this, but i figured
this has been a plan going on for year after reading all the latest news on the guy who did this. It's
just a sad sick twisted world we live in when people do that

Re(35): Something someone shared with me... (Kupe, Sep 13)                    (from New Zealand)

As nice as that is, and while it is true it is over 20 years old.

Re(26): revenge and such (Lancelot, Sep 13)                   (Slovak)

Today I've heard there some huge action is being prepared, that should take place in Afghanistan.
Bombing of buidlings should be followed by 10k soldiers, doing I don't know what...no comment.
lance.

Re(39): revenge and such (Elanor, Sep 13)                     (from Europe)

Emotions are high, of course nothing can justify the use of women and children as part of a
"human" bomb specifically aimed to cause maximum civilian casualties, regardless of how
"pushed to the limit" they feel they were. One thing i would say is that i have friends who are
islamic, and they are as disgusted and horrified as i am, they stress that Islam teaches peace and
tolerance. And that anyone who would be involved in this does NOT follow the true Islamic faith.


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Comparing this to bombing of military targets in Iraq, where human errors were made and
civilian targets hit is naive.. here civilians were specifically targeted, it strikes me that many of
the people who died could well have been Muslim in a state as diverse as New York.
I hope that the people who did this are found and brought to justice, but also that time is taken to
ensure that the correct people are found. Haralitha, saying if it wasn’t for the USA we would all
be calling Hitler Papa seems silly, for a while England stood pretty much alone. It was something
we came thru together.
My thoughts are very much with those who suffered as a result of this terrible act.
Elanor

Re(40): revenge and such (Lancelot, Sep 13)                (Slovak)

Wanted to write something similar too, but discussing with people without argument, that think
that US can save and will always save the world...
For those who are a bit interested, and for you too Hara...read something about Russian battles
and it's impact, and also England part in this war. I don't say that US didn't help, but it's pathetic
saying that they've saved Europe. Sooner or later it would come, with US help (and I’m thankful)
this was just faster.
Lance.

Re(31): My perspective.... (Petrus, Sep 13)                (Danish)

Wake up. Everything the U.S. does is not good by definition, as some seem to believe. Try
reading a few history books which are not written by Americans for Americans.
That being said, my sympathies are with everyone affected by this horrible tragedy.
/Pet

Re(32): Note on US and the rest of World (Calis, Sep 13)                     (Slovak)

You mean helping "poor" Albanians that your own CIA gave their weapons, paid their training,
their food, and organized their terrorist attacks. Now you too feel how it is to be attacked by
terrorists... And you are NO DIFFERENT from Milosovic. You too attack a country; you too
kill innocents, just because you suspect they support the terrorists. The situation is exactly the
same; you are just too blind to see it.

Re(41): revenge and such (Krotana, Sep 13)                 (Slovak)

The recent happenings are tragic and horrific, indeed. I was in work and we were all sitting in
front of the TV. I had the feeling of something unreal happening, like watching an action movie,
and somehow waiting for Bruce Willis to appear on the screen. He did not.
However, I witnessed the bombing of Belgrade by US, saw the ruins, and when the Chinese
Embassy, just some 400m away from our Slovak Embassy where we were, was blown into
oblivion - this thing, however smaller in scope and significance, touched me much deeper than
anything I've seen in TV. Emotions and logic are 2 different things.
USA certainly do, as the biggest, mightiest, most advanced, democratic and sophisticated country
in the world (as has been often written here), try to force, or spread if u please, the "democratic
way of life" throughout the world. They help and support certain countries, and they fight others.
But even when helping, USA follows their own interests. Every country does. That's human
nature. It's a bad world and paladins eventually always loose. And it's no surprise that there are
countries and people who do not like this politics of US. I can't say I like it, too. Though, I'd
rather eat Big Mac than kebab and watch Terminator 4:Ressurection than pray and bow with


                                                                                                     9
every sunrise (with all due respect, really).
I cannot but agree with Jet. It could have been expected. Who sows the wind, harvests storms.
Was it a war act? I think so. As was said, it became clear that the modern terror poses a dangerous
threat to all countries and it has to be fought against it. It's a war against unknown enemy. Should
there be retaliation? Certainly. But don't let the emotions and call for revenge overcome the logic
and common sense. War is a thing too serious for that. The speach of Bush Jr. resembles too
much the words that were spoken after the assassination of protector Heydrich in WW2. The
result was the extermination of one whole Czech town, Lidice, and murder of all the people. Just
because one of the assassinator's parents lived there. At the end, this was condemned as a war
crime of the worst kind. Shall this happen to Afganistan? Or any other country? And what
happens if the principal won't be found?
Well, at the end it always comes to the people. Don't forget that in every country there are people.
You can hate a nation, a country, political conviction, but when it comes to people, you can get
along with most of them pretty well. What happened is regardless of the background story
horrible and tragic event. Many people died. It is so big that it still seems unreal to me, in a way. I
just want to say that I do feel sorry, and offer my sympathies to everyone who's been affected by
it...
take care
Krocan

Re(44): revenge and such (Krotana, Sep 13)                  (Slovak)

Something just crossed my mind: USA in the world is like a bully on a playground full of other
children. If he beats and threatens other children, no wonder somebody throws a stink bomb into
his bag...
K.

Re(39): revenge and such (Calis, Sep 13)                    (Slovak)

Elanor, now really, do you THINK they wanted to cause maximum civilian casualties?
In my opinion, they struck pentagon because it is a symbol of us military power, and WTC
because it is a symbol of us economical power.
If they really wanted to do some real damage, they would hit some nuclear power plants, one of
the large ones... or they would strike the huge petroleum complexes, or the dams they have in the
states. That would have cost 100 times more civilian casualties, if that were the only purpose.

Re(46): revenge and such (Vigilante, Sep 13)

It is the lot of those with a high profile to reap all manner of opinion, good and bad, deserved and
undeserved. It happens to individual celebrities, and it happens to nations. The seemingly large
number of opinions that are negative regarding the United States in the wake of this incident
(which prompted Keli's post) I believe are not representative of general international sentiment.
There is a saying in retail sales that if a customer is satisfied, he will tell one friend, but if he is
dissatisfied, he will tell ten. I think this sums up the vociferous response from those asserting that
the country "had it coming".
The assertion that this action was not intended to inflict civilian casualties is so ludicrous as not to
warrant a response. I will simply point out that if an earthquake suddenly leveled their country,
the largest contributor to the relief effort would inevitably be the country they shake their fists at
on every opportunity.
It is incumbent on those with the means to alleviate suffering to do so, and do it without
expecting praise, thanks, or even a brief pause in the invectives hurled at them. When something


                                                                                                     10
ought to be done, it ought to be done for its inherent good, and not to garner praise or political
advantage. This of course is not how the work really works, but that does not mean it should not
be the goal. The U.S. has made blunders in its handling of any number of events, and beacuse of
its clout these actions and their consequences are magnified. But its citizens generally do want to
help, and the genuinely do want to do good where they can. I cannot condemn those who intend
to make the world better how and when they can, even if they fall short of the mark.
Vigilante

Re(47): revenge and such (Lews, Sep 13)

Well said Vigilante.... Well said...
Lews

A horrible spin (Yance, Sep 13)          (US)

All i want to say about this, at this time is this,
Having toured some of the Nuclear Power Plants from the US, i can say, having them as a target
isn't usually a good thing, since they are designed to have an airplane(fighter fully loaded, or
passenger) hit them and not breach the core. Not to say it couldn't happen, but a building is so
much easier to do.
Same thing with a dam, with the amount of concrete and thickness of it, most dams are build to
withstand airplanes as well. Bombs would work better on those 2.
As far as organization, and precision of where and when and how, i honestly can say that this is
some of the best organized and planned work it has ever been my HORROR to watch. I do regret
the terrific loss of life, both here and abroad, for what ever the circumstances.
I also hate the way some people only try to get thier point across by trying to top the last guy in
gruesomeness(is this a word?)
Having a disagreement with your neighbor and arguing is one thing, having a disagreement with
your neighbor and blowing up his barn with all his cows is something totally sick.
This can and has been debated back and forth, and some have said the US has had it coming, and
they are right, in the fact that we let so many have so much freedom here, that anyone can come
and do what they want, with in the frame work of our laws.
Is this a bad thing, well it used to not be.
Yance the Saddened American Monk, mourning the tradegy with most of the world.

US and "They had it coming" (Ravird, Sep 13)              (US)

Alright guys, lets look at it this way, The US has made mistakes in the past, that is agreed on by
all parties.
Does this mean, kill Americans though terrorist acts? I so no, most of all, since I myself am an
American. Lets move it to these views, look at the past of other countries. I am sure you can go
though to every country and find they are FAR from flawless, what does this mean? We should
go hijack a plane and smash it into buildings that will kill 10k+ people? Of course not, and I do
not support such actions.
Lets use this for an example:
Lets say, I am a person from... lets say, Scotland (Not ment to offend anyone from scotland). I am
pissed about how the English has treated my country in the past, so lets, say lets get a bomb, place
it in some main government building, prefereable one where I can kill the most English. Then,
shoot at the Prime Minister, after all this, I flee back to Scotland.
Then for story sake, lets say, The Scottish armies(not even sure if there is) and government say,
sorry, you can come in and get him, he is an honored guest. What do you think? You would say,


                                                                                                 11
England got what it is coming to them, they should just forget it, they killed Scottish people along
time ago. I bet you wouldn't. personally, I think on if the US deserved it or not is MAINLY based
on one's views of the US, if they just simply didn't like Americans, anything bad that happens to
them, their would be praise of it.
The question is, do these people hate American civils or American government? Or both? Why
do they hate them? It will be likely because of something that happened before their time.
As for a war, what I believe it is starting to become less and less likely, after all, the ENTIRE UN
AND RUSSIA(the country that has been reknown for not getting along with the US and in this
case, even offered military support), I highly doubt Afghanistan is stupid enough to try on them
other countries and will probley likely give up bin Laden, this is my thoughts only though.
So, who is the bullies now? Most of the world? If you are live in a country that is part of the UN,
think about it. This isn't about being a bully, this is about making the world for everyone to live
in. While there is people dieing because of civil wars, hunger, and natural disasters, the US and
many times the UN steps in and tries to stop the civil wars, works to feed those starving and aids
those victem of nature. Of course, when you do the right thing, you step on feet of people that
gain from their misfortures.

Re(46): revenge and such (Venture, Sep 13)

While I rather agree with Vigilante's assertion that intent to cause civilian casualties need not
even be argued, I just want to point out the facts. It was routine for the WTC buildings #1 and #2
to together accomodate upwards of 50 to a maximum of 100 thousand people (employees and
visitors) at any one time in a business day. These numbers do not take into account the number of
people in the adjacent structures (more than a few of which have either collapsed or are in danger
of collapsing). To me, its downright miraculous that the casualties thus far have not been much
higher. For any of you who work in multi-level buildings and who have ever take part in fire
drills (which are conducted without plane collisions destroying escape routes), you must know
how extraordinarily well this evac went if indeed the death toll is near the numbers that are
currently being projected.
As to which country or whose politics/religion/beliefs are right, wrong, good, evil.... All these
things presuppose that we're all working from the same value system, which we're obviously not.
Its my understanding that a great deal of Anti-Semitic feeling from middle-eastern Muslims stems
from the UN creation of a Hebrew state after WWII from lands that had had been under Arabic
control, and which contain places considered holy to their religion. While this religion also does
mandate that its practitioners avoid violence and suicide, it also mandates that they fight for their
beliefs and declare "holy war" on those who would oppose what they deem to be gods law.
Looking at things from there perspective, it makes sense to me. But looking at things from a
secular perspective, it makes sense to me that the USA should support UN decrees. Fast-forward
about 60 years, and what do we have? Two "sides" who both feel (and from their own
perspective, are) justified in kicking the hell out of each other. There is no right and wrong, only
one side or another.
What’s my point? I don't have one. I'm just a little depressed that, minus the details, this sort of
thing is the story of human history. It’s inevitable that the USA will strike back, and its inevitable
their strike will only deepen the hatred that caused those planes to go down. And so it goes...

Re(38): Something someone shared with me... (Keli, Sep 13)                  (US)

Kupe, I was not looking for a reply. And you know, it made me feel better. B/c if you didnt get
the first part, I have not, like many other Americans, been feeling very well. I feel like, and I
know this may not be the case, but I feel like all those I call friends in Europe are attacking
me.


                                                                                                    12
An Eloquent Commentary (Haralitha, Sep 14)                 (US)

The barbarians will learn what America's all about By Leonard Pitts Jr. Syndicated columnist
They pay me to tease shades of meaning from social and cultural issues, to provide words that
help make sense of that which troubles the American soul. But in this moment of airless shock
when hot tears sting disbelieving eyes, the only thing I can find to say, the only words that seem
to fit, must be addressed to the unknown author of this suffering.
You monster. You beast. You unspeakable bastard.
What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World Trade Center, our
Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn? Whatever it was, please know that you
failed.
Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your cause.
Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve.
Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together.
Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a family rent by racial,
cultural, political and class division, but a family nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of
expending tremendous emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae, a singer's revealing dress, a
ballteam's misfortune, a cartoon mouse.
We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the ready availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe
because of that, we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We are
fundamentally decent, though - peace-loving and compassionate. We struggle to know the right
thing and to do it. And we are, the overwhelming majority of us, people of faith, believers in a
just and loving God.
Some people - you, perhaps - think that any or all of this makes us weak. You're mistaken. We
are not weak. Indeed, we are strong in ways that cannot be measured by arsenals.
Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in shock. We're still grappling with the
unreality of the awful thing you did, still working to make ourselves understand that this isn't a
special effect from some Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot development from a Tom Clancy
novel.
Both in terms of the awful scope of its ambition and the probable final death toll, your attacks are
likely to go down as the worst acts of terrorism in the history of the United States and, indeed, the
history of the world. You've bloodied us as we have never been bloodied before.
But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and making us fall. This is the lesson
Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last time anyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone
brought us such abrupt and monumental pain. When roused, we are righteous in our outrage,
terrible in our force. When provoked by this level of barbarism, we will bear any suffering, pay
any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit of justice.
I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people, as you, I think, do not. What I
know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble with dread of the future.
In days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation, fingers pointing to determine whose
failure allowed this to happen and what can be done to prevent it from happening again. There
will be heightened security, misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms. We'll go forward from
this moment sobered, chastened, sad. But determined, too. Unimaginably determined.
You see, there is steel beneath this velvet. That aspect of our character is seldom understood by
people who don't know us well. On this day, the family's bickering is put on hold. As Americans
we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans, we will rise in defense of all that
we cherish.
Still, I keep wondering what it was you hoped to teach us. It occurs to me that maybe you just
wanted us to know the depths of your hatred.
If that's the case, consider the message received. And take this message in exchange: You don't


                                                                                                  13
know my people. You don't know what we're about. You don't know what you just started.
But you're about to learn.

Some replies (Haralitha, Sep 14)                   (US)

re:Note 124- Elanor, I did not say that the US faught the battle and won it alone. History shows
that a) it was not principly our battle until Japan nailed Pearl Harbor. Before that,the Allied forces
were losing.b) Churchhill asked for support and got it. Hitler had planned all along to let 3
nations rule the world, of which, America was one. We could have just taken him up on the
offer...(incidently, this fact was brought to my attention by a DUTCH guy, who was taught out of
DUTCH textbooks)
re: note 125- see above (for Lancelot)
re: note 126-(for Petrus) nowhere did i say that everything we do/did is good..you wake
up.imagine the world that you live in where an America never helped..it is not a pretty
sight.Frankly, I think we should quit helping ....care for are own, and when our assistance is
begged for, let you guys answer them.
re:note 127- (for Calis) Guess we will take your word for it, you are the resident terrorism expert
as you have demonstrated so many times in what you say on the mud. The fact that there will be
innocent people killed is of no consequence anymore. The last count I saw on the television
was that there were over 30000 bodybags taken from the WTC buildings..Not bad for one days
work for a terrorist...wonder what we will do in a few weeks of looking for the bastard
responsible..my guess is you wont come near that number.
re: note 128- (for Krotana) The example of the village being exterminated is probably a very
good analogy of what is to come. The opportunity to turn the bastard over has been
given.When asked if we may be barking up the wrong tree, Colin Powell replied, there are
alot of trees..I am paraphrasing, but the meaning was clear. All terrorists are now fair game.
They can turn on Bin Ladin, or they can be exterminated as well.It is pretty much fair to say that
they will not resort to blockades, economic sanctions and such for afghanistan. You all seem to
think that america brought this on ourselves, that being the case, who do you hold responsible for
the ultimate retribution? The U.S? Funny, the rest of the "civilized" world supports our actions.
Let's give credit where credit is due...any death, from this day forward is the FAULT of the
bastards that decided they knew how to fly Boeing aircraft, not the U.S. We are responding in
the way that they damn full well knew we would respond. Stop and consider that.

The bottom line. (Supaknight, Sep 14)              (US)

People have been saying things like 'the U.S. deserved it' well whether or not that is the case that
is not the point.
The bottom line is this, tens of thousands of innocent people died at the WTC who had nothing to
do with America's policies on the Middle East.
Their deaths must be avenged. We must not tolerate terrorism. Tolerating is allowing which is the
same thing as saying it is okay.
-Supaknight thinks a 0 tolerance policy belongs on terrorism.

Bounty. (Supaknight, Sep 14)              (US)

The FBI has place a 5 million dollar bounty on bin laden's head (however the name is spelled ;) ).
Anyone need some cash? I got a good hunting dog and will split 50/50;)
-Supaknight the bounty hunter.




                                                                                                   14
crashes wtc all the notes (Dracoon, Sep 14)                (US)

I’m sorry I do not want to sound cold but I’m sick of hearing about this yes I do agree it was bad
and we should get revenge and yes I do agree us is not perfect but I am sick of hearing about this
watched it on TV the first 2 days and listened on mb the rest and reading all these notes I beg you
to change the subject
dracoon who cares but is sick of hearing it over and over and over

Re(57): crashes wtc all the notes (Haralitha, Sep 14)              (US)

as someone once told me, if you dont like them, dont read them..they do have titles and
references.

Re(58): crashes wtc all the notes (Gaius, Sep 14)                  (Dutch)

I just cant imagine what can drive people to suicide, and kill thousands of people at the same
time.
Gaius, who isnt pointing a finger.

Re(59): crashes wtc all the notes (Celestial, Sep 14)              (Australian)

Gaius, 'what can drive people to suicide and kill...', I believe they been bought up with lower
value of american life and a higher value of their own. It's harder for us to understand because we
value all life. – Celes

Re(56): Bounty. (Elidur, Sep 14)

You will split 50/50 with a dog? im sure the dog will settle for less.

Re(31): My perspective.... (Jet, Sep 14)                   (Russian, living in US)

just another example of American propaganda.... please tell me if the US could have taken the
millions of casualties which the USSR did. it is so easy to speculate on what if and what if not
but the bottom line is that history happened the way it did and the death toll of Russian
soldiers/civilians in places like Stalingrad is more then the whole US army put together.
jet loves the cold winter in the motherland

Re(44): revenge and such (Lancelot, Sep 14)                (Slovak)

And paladins always win! I just have to agree with Krotana, just will add, that no 1 but 2 towns
were buried as a result of that assassination (I think...will check book).
Lance.

Re(46): revenge and such (Lancelot, Sep 14)                (Slovak)

Actually, the plane that hit Pentagon was heading for the White House, and there are rumors, that
there were 9 planes hijacked...and 1 of them heading for Camp David, place where nuclear plant
should be (correct me if I'm wrong). Other targets were Air Force 1...dunno the others. So only
god and head of terrorists know, what did they want...
Lance.



                                                                                                   15
Re(54): Some replies (Krotana, Sep 14)            (Slovak)

Hara, that's the cheapest way out of it. Saying "it's their fault, they knew what they were
doing and they asked for it" is the crudest alibism and a really stupid excuse. Of course, it
sounds good and prolly that's why it has been used oh-so-many time in the history. Read the
bible. What you said is a paraphrase of the Prelate's words, washing his hands over the death of
Jesus Christ. Stop and think about THAT. Whatever is the reason, it is always YOUR response,
YOUR action and YOUR responsibility. If you pull the trigger, it's you who killed the man.
Not that I don't understand it. What happened is a horrible thing. Terrorism poses a danger
threating all countries. And for sure we have to fight it. And bring those responsible to justice. I
just feel worried, when I hear how easily ppl say that SOMEONE must be killed for this,
whatever it takes.
As to that 'USA brought this upon them' story... I didn't mean it excatly that way, and neither did I
mean something like 'you deserved it'. Venture said it well. America, or 'we civilized world', are
not the good guys. And the 'other side' is not the bad guys. World is not black and white. World is
grey. That's what none of all the Americans I've ever talked to seem to realize. It is probably
the US virtual invincibility that makes them think they are always right. Well, from their point of
view they are. But form their point of view are the Palestinians right, too. We want to keep our
way of life. We want our democracy. 'They want the same, keep what they have. What would US
government do, if someone would try to force them to give up e.g. Florida, make them move all
the ppl out of there to make place for some Islamic nation's state? It's a conflict between two
cultures. It has been here for many years, growing. Now America, as a symbol of the 'democratic
side of the world' has been hit, obviously in the only way it actually could be hit. I was shocked,
sad, but not surprised.
Well, now as I read the newest messages, I see that Venture and Beren actually said it all. Just
one more thing: I don't want in any case to apologize what happened. There is no apology for
that. All that is said here misses one point: what happened is a terrible human tragedy, and there
are many people dead... :(
Krocan

terrorism (Immortal, Sep 14) (anti US)

The last nation on earth that should talk about terrorism is the US. Who supported bin laden with
weapons and money to fight the russians? Who did the same thing with sammad hussein? who
provided the albanians with guns to cause a mess in balkans?
Who has been bombing almost every year a different part of the world, just 'to keep the world's
peace'? God, the us have been on every single corner of the world, bombink, killing, causing
disaster! stop talking about terrorism, U are the greatest of all terrorists.
It's time to think about it, now that u know how it feels to be AFRAID The Serbs know it,
iraqians know it, Africa knows it, Japan knows it...Vietnam knows it...it seems to me everyone
knew how it feels xept the us.
*

Re(66): terrorism (Krotana, Sep 14)               (Slovak)

Ok, once more me: I know how u might feel. I lost 2 good friends when the Belgrade was
bombed...
K.




                                                                                                  16
My personal view (Ravird, Sep 14)                  (US)

Alright, those that have kept up with my notes, this might have some repeated things in it. First
off, I would like to address the "American Propaganda". I am sure every countries has at least a
little propaganda placed into their minds, and of course, part of it is not realizing it, perhaps those
claiming that Americans are suffering from it are suffering from it themselves. Personally, I don't
know how this got that far off the beginning subject of the tragic terrorist attempt.
Most of the time, I don't call myself an American, don't get me wrong, I am, but I view I am a
Christian over that. I do not always agree what my country does, yet god has a reason for
everything, even if you can't see it. Perhaps it doesn't seem clear but I am sure there is a reason.
As for Americans going to war, I doubt it will happen. As I stated before, what country would
appose the UN supported by Russia? Well, if you can name one, I would be willing to debate it.
'Next, as far as I know, the military didn't supply Osama bin Laden, why would they need too? He
is a millionare, he can buy anything he wants, he doesn't need it given to him. bin Laden inherited
that money from his rich father, he opposed the gulf war, which I don't know details, but he was
banished from Saudi Arabi and blamed the US. He declared war upon the US, or rather a "Holy
War"...
Next view which I didn't like to see, is all the country bashing, it is all just name calling in my
personal thoughts, so this is offically my last note regarding this tragic event. What I wanted to
say is said and continuing any further would just be senseless. Clearly people have set minds and
won't change, I admit, I try to keep an open mind, but it doesn't always work that way. Either
way, on last thing, clearly, since everyone seems to have their own view on things and claim it is
the only correct view, (which is seems to come mainly from the Europian countries), but I won't
go any further with that, after all, it will just lead to senseless things that won't change anyone's
minds about anything. Thanks for your time...

My Condolances (Ree, Sep 14)              (Canadian)

My deepest condolances to the Americain people for their terrible loss. My heart is sad for those
who have lost loved ones. I can hardly fathom the pain and suffering and bewilderment that they
are feeling.
The Prime Minister of Canada has declared today a national day of mourning. I joined many
Canadians accross the country who went to memorial services.
I do not want to sound religious, because I'm not I just want to let you know, that many people
are praying for you.
Ree, who hangs her head at the horrible things humanity is capable of.

replies (Cruncher, Sep 14)                (Slovak)

I very much agree with Krotana, generally agree with Petrus, Elanor and Beren, rather agree with
Hessef, Ravird, Vigilante and Supaboy. I agree with a fraction of Calis' opinions. I rather
disagree with Lancelot and Haralitha. NOTE: This doesn't mean I hate those of other opinion.
Historical excursion: WW2 and such.
In the beginning of 20th century USA pursued the policy of isolationism. It included striving for
autarchy (self-sufficiency, mainly economic) and avoiding of involvement into Old World affairs.
This policy was somewhat alleviated in later phases of WWI, to be restrengthened after 1929
Wall Street Crash and following Great Depression. The German-Soviet Ribbentrop-Molotov non-
aggression
treaty allowed WWII to start in September 1939. In June 1941 Germany invaded Soviet Union
(thus breaking the treaty - obviously no sane person would believe Hitler's division of world
among 3 powers after this example of treating allies). It was not until December 1941 (Pearl


                                                                                                    17
Harbor) when USA joined the war. US supplies of cash and equip to Great Britain started much
sooner. These supplies helped GB to survive and provided time for USA to rearm. After WWII
situation changed. Instead of isolationism USA pursued the policy of containment (restricting the
growth of communism). Europe was ravaged, leftist movements gaining support in the post-war
misery. European Recovery Program, often called the Marshall Plan, implemented in 1948,
provided massive support for western Europe and prevented spreading of communism. And my
point is: If USA did something (like funded GB, ignored Hitler's proposal
or reconstructed Europe), it helped both the world _and_ USA. It was not an act of mercy, it was
an act of logic. If USA chose to return the the policy of isolationism, it would have grave
consequences on both USA and the rest of the world. However, this is _very_ improbable, as
even USA needs allies and trading partners (and vice versa, of course).
My last concern: US public opinion pushes Bush to swift and devastating retribution. All the
stuff about the 'act of war' sounds like a preliminary excuse of further civilian casualties.

No comment. (Elvira, Sep 14)              (Slovak)

I leave this without comment...

The awesome cruelty of a doomed people (By Robert Fisk - Mid-East journalist)
=====================================================================
======
So it has come to this. America is at war and, unless I am grotesquely mistaken, many thousands
more are now scheduled to die in the Middle East, perhaps in America too. Someof us warned of
"the explosion to come". But we never dreamed this nightmare. And yes, Osama bin Laden
comes to mind, his money, his theology, his frightening dedication to destroy American power. I
have sat in front of bin Laden as he described how his men helped to destroy the Russian army in
Afghanistan and thus the Soviet Union. Their boundless confidence allowed them to declare war
on America. But this is not the war of democracy vs terror that the world will be asked to believe
in the coming hours and days. It is also about American missiles smashing into Palestinian homes
and US helicopters firing missiles into a Lebanese ambulance in 1996 and American shells
crashing into a village called Qana a few days later and about a Lebanese militia - paid and
uniformed by America's Israeli ally - hacking and raping and murdering their way through
refugee camps.
No, there is no doubting the utter, indescribable evil of what has happened in the United States.
That Palestinians could celebrate the massacre of 20,000, perhaps 35,000 innocent people is not
only a symbol of their despair but of their political immaturity, of their failure to grasp what they
had always been accusing their Israeli enemies of doing: acting disproportionately. But we were
warned. All the years of rhetoric, all the promises to strike at the heart of America, to cut off the
head of "the American snake" we took for empty threats. How could a backward, conservative,
undemocratic and corrupt group of regimes and small, violent organizations fulfil such
preposterous promises? Now we know.
And in the hours that followed yesterday's annihilation, I began to remember those other
extraordinary, unbelievable assaults upon the US and its allies, miniature now by comparison
with yesterdays' casualties. Did not the suicide bombers who killed 241 American servicemen
and almost 100 french paratroops in Beirut on 23 October 1983, time their attacks with
unthinkable precision?
It was just 7 seconds between the Marine bombing and the destruction of the French three miles
away. Then there were the attacks on US bases in Saudi Arabia, and last year's attempt - almost
successful it now turns out – to sink the USS Cole in Aiden. And then how easy was our failure to
recognize the new weapon of the Middle East which neither Americans or any other Westerners
could equal: the despair-driven, desperate suicide bomber.


                                                                                                  18
All America's power, wealth - and arrogance, the Arabs will be saying – could not defend the
greatest power the world has ever known from this destruction.
For journalists, even those who have literally walked through the blood of the Middle East, words
dry up here. Awesome, terrible, unspeakable, unforgivable; in the coming days, these words will
become water in the desert. And there will be, naturally and inevitably, and quite immorally, an
attempt to obscure the historical wrongs and the blood and the injustices that lie behind
yesterday's firestorms. We will be told about "mindless terrorism'', the "mindless" bit being
essential if we are not to realise how hated America has become in the land of the birth of three
great religions.
Ask an Arab how he responds to 20 or 30 thousand innocent deaths and he or she will respond as
good and decent people should, that it is an unspeakable crime. But they will ask why we did not
use such words about the sanctions that have destroyed the lives of perhaps half a million children
in Iraq, why we did not rage about the 17,500 civilians killed in Israel's 1982 invasion of
Lebanon, why we allowed one nation in the Middle East to ignore UN Security Council
resolutions but bombed and sanctioned all others who did. And those basic reasons why the
Middle East caught fire last September - the Israeli occupation of Arab land, the dispossession of
Palestinians, the bombardments and state sponsored executions, the Israeli tortures ... all these
must be obscured lest they provide the smallest fractional reason for yesterday's mass savagery.
No, Israel was not to blame - that we can be sure that Saddam Hussein and the other grotesque
dictators will claim so - but the malign influence of history and our share in its burden must
surely stand in the dark with the suicide bombers. Our broken promises, perhaps even our
destruction of the Ottoman Empire, led inevitably to this tragedy. America has bankrolled Israel's
wars for so many years that it believed this would be cost-free. No longer so. It would be an act of
extraordinary courage and wisdom if the United States was to pause for a moment and reflect
upon its role in the world, the indifference of its government to the suffering of Arabs, the
indolence of its current president.
But of course, the United States will want to strike back against "world terror'', who can blame
them? Indeed, who could ever point the finger at Americans now for using that pejorative and
sometimes racist word "terrorism''? There will be those swift to condemn any suggestion that we
should look for real historical reasons for an act of violence on this world-war scale. But unless
we do so, then we are facing a conflict the like of which we have not seen since Hitler's death and
the surrender of Japan. Korea, Vietnam, is beginning to fade away in comparison.
Eight years ago, I helped to make a television series that tried to explain why so many Muslims
had come to hate the West. Last night, I remembered some of those Muslims in that film, their
families burnt by American-made bombs and weapons. They talked about how no one would help
them but God.
Theology vs technology, the suicide bomber against the nuclear power. Now we have learnt what
this means.

Thank You (Haralitha, Sep 15)                      (US)

The last few days I have been somewhat torn over the thought of what our country may/may not,
but most likely, will do soon.
After reading the many "anti-American, you all deserved it" sentiments, (which I noticed come
mostly from the Slovakian contingency), you have helped me put it all in perspective. My regrets
now are much less than what they were on Wednesday.
I will no longer argue our "right" to revenge, or the lessons that must be taught, and learned from
the actions of terrorism. I will continue to read your opinions, as I feel that by the time you are all
through trashing America, I will be more than ok with the idea of military action.
For this, I thank you.
Hara


                                                                                                    19
WTC+more (An oppinion if ouy DARE) (Que, Sep 15)                  (from Europe)

Personally I think you are entitled to commit terror acts under ONE condition!!! That you have
'constitutional' right and have had that area under control for quite some time!
IMHO war should be fought at home ground(turf)
Still I can't see why the UK should support the US in this coming war-troops action Then why
haven't the US supported Ireland and the UK in their CONSTANT battle. That Irish battle is
ALMOST as old as the US (if not even OLDER)
There are far MORE people that have died in the 'battle' of North Ireland than in the one terror
deed against US... Still No One is talking about it ..
There are far MORE people that have died in the 'battle' of North Ireland than in the one terror
deed against US... Still No One is talking about it ..
Why doesn't US or someone do ANYTHING about it ?!?
I feel the tragedy at ALL three sides.
I've lately been to Ireland, and it will all solve quite 'peacefully'
Once the UK pull out. It's quite the same as the US and mid-east, This are merely a point of
view...
If anyone wants to discuss I've got an email address at my finger plan. I think that whom ever did
it should be MAN enough to admit IT !!! As IRA/UK always done so far, (or what ever part of
the Irish)
If you DO something you face it proudly and DON'T hide in the shadows!!! If you don't
BELIEVE in what and why doing it,
why are you doing it ?!?!? Take a stand for what you BELIEVE in !!! I’m an EU citizen, and
DEAD scared of some of the "mid-east" 'refuges'

Opinions... (Methos, Sep 15)             (Dutch, living in US)

I must honestly say that I have a somewhat different view on the situation than my wife has.
Understandably, as she is an American, and I am a Dutchman living in America. I am personally
torn after watching so closely the effect this has had on the American people, between wanting
the perpetrators punished harshly, whatever the cost, and my Dutch(?) common sense taking over
and saying, let's not punish more innocents for the crimes of others.
That said, I think people often forget that it is governments who create wars, it is governments
who use people toward their own ends, it is governments and their agencies who decide for the
rest of the people what the best course of action is, not the actual people themselves. As far as I
know, the American people have never cheered when their government killed, by accident,
innocents. They have never cheered, when their government's agencies manipulated others
worldwide. The very opposite even. The fact a lot of the americans protested against the US
government for waging the war in Vietnam is but an example, and those that did not, certainly did
not cheer it on. Which is why I have a hard time dealing with a lot of the notes here, that say that
Americans "had it coming", mostly said in a very hateful manner. The American people didn't do
anything to you, those 30000+ people that died in those attacks didn't do anything to you. Blame
the American government for accidental or non-accidental deaths of innocents, not the people.
I also notice that this is almost exclusively coming from the Slovakian player base. I don't know
why you do this, most likely because of the accidents in Serbia that you keep hammering about,
or perhaps because of the fact one of you is Milosevich's grandfather's brother's nephew's best
friend's grandson (my bet would be on Calis btw, I am absolutely apalled by the way you talk on
this board about this subject).
I think most reasonable people would say that going to war to get rid of Milosevich, who was
murdering innocents left and right, was a worthy cause, and I cannot but agree with Vigilante,
that even if they sometimes fall short of the mark, and make mistakes, for the main part, the US is


                                                                                                 20
trying to do the right thing for others that cannot do it themselves, and ends up getting scorned for
it. To get back to my main thread, I don't think the American people deserve the many "hah, you
had it coming" posts. Let me tell you what I have learned about the American peope in my 3+
years I have been here. For the most part they are independent and don't have the
habit of making other people's business their own, such as (yes) my Dutch countrymen. That
sometimes makes them seem the example of the stereo-typical cold capitalist American. Over the
whole, looking at the whole population, they are not as learned, educated percentage wise as
populations in Europe. A lot of them are people that live a very simple life, especially in the
South
where I live. (which is imo why Bush could win the elections by shouting that Gore was gonna
take their guns away) But that doesn't mean there are no smart Americans, on the contrary, or
America could not have reached the position of world leader it has in the world today.
One thing that stands out most however, is that Americans will always take care of their own.
That is something I think most people do not understand at this point. So far, I don't think there
has been a single war fought since WW2 that they were fully behind, until now.
Their own have been hurt, their own have been killed. I feel sorry for those that have committed
this act, because 450 million
Americans will hunt them down to the end of this planet.
I wish there could be a way that this could be done without spilling more innocent blood. I fear it
will not come. However, ask yourself this then, do you blame America for going out for justice
for its blood that was shed, or do you blame the people that harbor
the perpetrators and do not have the common sense to turn him over.
Another question you might ask yourself before being so judgmental, is: what would your
county's response be, if it had the power to pursue these people and bring them to justice. Would
you sit there and say: too bad about my killed brother, let's wait for the next time it happens.
I don't expect everyone to share my view. On the contrary. But I do hope that disgusting talk like
Americans had their death coming can be avoided. I fully understand my wife's strong response
to it.

Re(43): Note on US and the rest of World (Supaknight, Sep 15)                        (US)

Calis what the American government has done in the past is of no relevance. Thousands of
innocents died. There is no excuse or justification for what happened. Those people in the World
Trade Center were not the ones who had any control on the policies in the middle east.
-Supaknight cannot believe people are justifying what happened.

Re(75): Note on US and the rest of World (Gaius, Sep 15)                   (Dutch)

Supa, a nations population who elects their government is responsible for the actions of that very
goverment.
Gaius is tired of pointing fingers everywhere but to themselves.

Re(75): Note on US and the rest of World (Cruncher, Sep 15)                          (Slovak)

     What the American government has done in the past is of no relevance.
      Sure it is relevant, there has to be a reason why those bastards hit USA.
      > Thousands of innocents died.
      Yes, we all are sad about that.
      > There is no excuse or justification for what happened.
      No, it cannot be excused, whatever the reason was.
      > Those people in the World Trade Center were not the ones who had any


                                                                                                  21
        > control on the policies in the middle east.
        You are right. Civilian victims anywhere around the world have usu. no control.
        > people are justifying what happened.
        They aren't (I hope). People reject it.
        > "hah, you had it coming"
        Imho, it is more like "fuck, but you had it coming". Simply, there were certain
        US actions in the past that resulted in a being pictured as the Great Satan by
        some Islamic countries.
        > too bad about my killed brother
        So hey, let's slay some of their family members, too?! And possibly even the
        nephew's grandson of whoever was hiding them?
        > what would my country do?
        Hmm, good point. Of course what we would do is ask EU and USA for help. But if
        we had the power... I don't know.
        I would write some more but gotta run. Btw the adjective of Slovakia is Slovak.

end (Lancelot, Sep 15)           (Slovak)

This is perhaps my last note to this topic.
I must agree, that some of my previous notes were influenced by emotions a bit, but things that
happend, influenced all of us a bit. I know how US citizens feel now, and I would act/write the
same notes, as you were. I've come to this conclussion, as I was yesterday watching CNN's report
with 'Spirit of America' headline, and than Bush's speak in NY. People need to be calmed down,
and assured, that those responsible will be punished/brought to justice (i doubt this).
As last words I want to write how I see the nearest, or just the future. As we'll know there is 1.5
billion moslems around the world. 10M terrorists and, among them 5k proffesional pilots. I don't
know if US wants to meet another Vietnam, but if you want the war...
You were all celebrating as Russia withdrew it's forces from Afghanistan (where US was helping
with weapons and other things), but now you see the consequences. They were fighting moslems,
and now it was them who hit US.
Last thing. I don't see any solution how to end this. There will be retaliation...but in which way?
You can bomb the hell out of afghanistan, and thus piss even more moslem countries...what can
bring all US people around world in danger. You can close borders and start being more isolated,
what will cause the decrease of US wealth, and this is not what americans want...
Again, I'm sorry for what has happened, I'm not laughing, when watching TV, where all that
debris and missing people are being showed.
Lance.
P.S. Is it only me, or other people think too that evidences, like finding pilot manuals in arabic
language at seat, with Bin Laden photo is a bit strange? They hit the most secured country, they
are not stupid...I'm not terrorist, but I would hide/burn all weapons, manuals and things related to
this issue...

Re(72): Thank You (Elvira, Sep 15)                (Slovak)

No offense Hara but it's always painful to see someone whose emotions control his rationality. If
there will be a military action:
-It will be mid-east people who will die not us.
-It will be US people who will probably die from the more terroristic retaliation and in the
military operations, not us.
-Both results will only increase the already high hatred between US and Arabic world. Europe
will not care much. Officially we will, but otherwise... Not our problem, we'll just watch the


                                                                                                 22
news.
-True terrorists will most likely survive, they are seasoned soldiers not weak civilians. And the
rest of their blind-folded nation will only become to support them even more. It pains me that you
take it all so personally because I believe you are not the only one. However, such emotianility is
responsible for 90% of the greatest disasters in human history. Including the recent attack on
WTC.
Perhaps the fact all support US cause made those terrorists to write the exactly same note as you
did. Think about it.
El, just sad.

Re(78): end (Hessef, Sep 15)

<<< P.S. Is it only me, or other people think too that evidences, like finding pilot manuals in
arabic language at seat, with Bin Laden photo is a bit strange? >>>
Yeah, that sounds crazy to me, too.
On the other hand, there's one Afghan-American, Tamim Ansary, who has a theory that might
explain the easily discovered evidence. The article, at
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/14/afghanistan/index.html , advances the theory that
bin Laden is deliberatly trying to start an war between the the USA and Europe versus the Islamic
countries.
I don't know enough about bin Laden to make an educated judgement on Ansary's essay, but, at
least on a gut level, what Ansary has to say makes sense to me.
--Hessef thinks that holy wars are the last thing mankind needs

innocent people died (Supaknight, Sep 15)                 (US)

Anyone who triest to justify this with past US actions is trying to excuse the actions of a
terrorist.
Innocent people died. And btw Gaius check yiour facts, the CHILDREN that died in there did not
have a chance to vote the people into office. YOU MUST BE 18 TO VOTE.
-Supaknight is sickened by all the pro-terrorists.

It's all so sad (Lilly, Sep 15)

First of all, Everyone has a right to respond on this board. Whether you agree with them or not.
I have been reading this board silently hurting.
I can't be silent any longer. The fact is up to 5,000 people....not just Americans died in the WTC.
Innocent people dying is sad no matter what country it is in.
The problem we all have is our backgrounds all leave us with different perspectives. I have really
learned a lot from others perspectives here. (not that I agree with them all) I think discussion is
good. It makes it easier to see where others are coming from. Coming from an American point of
view and reading the views from other countries has been enlightening.
I would hope that this discussion would allow us to understand each other better, rather than
pointing fingers and saying "it was bound to happen" or "the US deserved it". No one
....absolutely NO one deserved what has happened now or in the past. (in reference to innocent
civilians dying)
I rarely post on the boards, but I have been staring at CNN and reading these notes and I have
such a heavy heart at the moment. I needed to say something.
You can agree or disagree with me. All I can think of are the families of those who died. This
incident may have killed 5,000 or so, but it has affected millions.
Lilly the very sad Wiz


                                                                                                 23
I have seen the trend... (Keli, Sep 15)            (US)

I have seen the trend here and it is breaking my heart. I do read the notes, I look at the who the
authors are.
I dont know which is more, my grief for those who have died or my grief to see the way my
'friends' are being.
Since this had happened, barely any of my Slovak friends have said a word to me. This breaks my
heart. Those I thought my friends, those I thought would ask me how I am b/c of this, I can think
of two I had expected such things from to be a concern from. All the others dont seem to care. I
have found that people I have barely talked to seem very concerned and for that I thank them,
they are true friends even if I dont talk to them every day... or even once a month. They are very
caring and special people. I would do anything I can for them, thank you. As for my other friends,
the ones in Slovakia, I was going to make a trip to see them. I was so excited to see them. I was
and have opened my home to them. All I do when I log on to here is read the notes and cry. I
think I have given up. As time goes on, I think I will be here less. I will just make other
arrangements to see others. For those who have cared, thank you so very much for your time and
friendship. Confused, hurt, and really kind of scared,
Keli

Re(74): Opinions... (Krotana, Sep 15)              (Slovak)

There have been many different messages written. The incredibly impulsive and aggressive note
from Haralitha, comments from other ppl, quite reasonable notes from Methos, Elvira,
Cruncher... the last two actually said most of what I had on my mind. I just want to add my last 2
cents.
Methos, it was really interesting to see it from your point of view. Though I don't agree with
everything you wrote, I do prefectly understand it. I think I already did write that 'nation' and
'people' are actually two different things. And as I know the people I know and understood the
rest of them, every comment about America was indeed meant in respect to the course the
goverment has choosen for its people. As I read the notes I didn't notice any hateful attacks on
American people (for the reasonable notes at least), merely words of sympathy for the tragic
event. I don't hate USA and I certainly don't hate Americans. If my notes felt like personal
attacks, well, they were not. I prolly used the wrong words to express my thoughts (English is
foreign language for me and I'm somehow loosing the grasp of it as I live in Germany now) or
was not sensible enough. And a small sidethought: when the goverment does things the people
don't agree with, than the famous democracy is obviously not working the way it should or we
thought it would... before someone bites on this, I don't say that
Slovak/German/English/European democracy works better. I don't know. It is pretty much
possible that the US system IS the best one.
Neither did I try, Supa, to find an excuse for those terrorists. Neither did I question your right for
revenge, Hara. All your notes just seem to be full of the same fanatism that moved those bastards
to do what they did. You speak so easily (and hatefully, when it comes to that, but that's just my
impression) about exterminating whole nations, anybody and all who has something to do with
this war and oppose America. For this is a silent war which started many years ago, was there all
the time, fed and growing. It just never came to USA and never in such a horrific scope. People
have been fighting and dying. Innocent people, too, for there is no such a thing like a clean
surgery war (and 'accidents' is no appology). But try to understand that there are people behind
governments on the whole world. People that have brothers who got killed, too. And people that
could have the same feelings that rule America these days. And when you decide to exterminate
them for some action their government took... well, we have seen how did you feel just about
uncomplimentary comments on US actions and politics. To use Methos' analogy: if a man


                                                                                                    24
murdered my brother, do u think I would take a gun and go kill him, shooting everybody who
tries to stop me? In our 'civilized democratic world' is it illegal and looked upon as a crime.
Sadly, this total extermination is exatly what might (and will?) happen. It's a devious endless
circle; at the beginning, someone got hurt. They got hurt, they hurt you. You got hurt, you hurt
them. And so on, unless one side is dead or someone is mature? sophisticated? evolved?
civilized? enough to break that circle. It seems like that won't happen. Emotions are too strong.
And UN, Europe, my government and me, too, will support America in that fight. Because it's not
a perfect world and obviously we can't all be brothers. Because every military action will cause
new wave of terror, unless the whole other side is wiped out. And because I want to elect my
government, have the freedom of speech and have more friends in America than in Afganistan.
Reminds me somehow of wild west, where justice was a matter of personal opinion. Somehow I
hoped we grew a bit further than that...
with best wishes and sympathies,
K.

Re(81): innocent people died (Mag, Sep 15)               (Slovak)

I wrote a note about crashes some time ago, where saying how sad i felt about the Tuesday’s
event in US. And I wrote there... "Who was able to commit something so horrible, so cruel, so
unbelievable?" For me, this tragedy would never be enough understandable... because I still
cannot imagine the hate that arose in those terrorists to kill so many people. That's why I could
not say that US deserved this. No one deserves this!!!
I know that American people want somebody to pay for this... want to revenge this cruel attack
against so many innocent people who died (however not only Americans died). It was the second
real attack on US when counting Pearl Harbor, but as this was an attack on the civilian target...
it's first of its kind. And American people, who have never seen this happen in their own country,
are scared. I'm trying to understand you... During my whole life, thanks God, my country or the
place I lived at, was never bombarded or attacked. But I know other people, who have had this
horrible experience and I know that they are fatalied by what happened.
And i don't wish anybody to have such an experience and even to Arabic countries!!!!! That's
why i want to repeat... US people did not deserve this. BUT No one deserves this!!!
But let me take this issue from a different point of view. America has made many enemies all
around the world. Especially in the arabic countries. And I think it's up to everybody to think
why... we have to ask about the roots of this conflict to understand why this horrible attack could
have happened. How is it possible that America has such enemies that they give their lives to kill
innocent civilians? Should we not maybe try to think, that there's maybe something not so great in
America's behaviour in foreign affairs... because it causes such a hate? I don't want to judge any
government, it of course cannot be judged like a "good" or "bad", but always something in the
middle... I know that sometimes it is very hard to decide what to do in a special circumstances.
But I still think that we should firstly try to find some peaceful means how to solve issues. The
terrorists deserve justice! And I think there's no one who doubt about this. But does the whole
Afghanistan, or Arabic world "deserve justice" cause of what happened on Tuesday? Do we have
to take another innocent lives of innocent civilians in Arabic (that would be surely affected too)?
That's why i want to repeat... US people did not deserve this cruel attack. BUT No one deserves
it!!!
Yesterday i was on a discussion about the latest events in US. And one of the ideas that was
placed here was, that during the "cold war" some people were earning great money on the
production and sale of weapons. And about 10 years ago, their income was strongly reduced.
Some "interested" people prolly want to begin this again... Just to increase their wealth, not
looking at other people dying... they prolly "invested some money" and helped and supported the
terrorist... and let me ensure you, that these people don't have to be only Arabic...


                                                                                                25
During the discussion I became persuaded, that most of the people there don't want to see another
war, they don't want to see another killing.
Although the killing which can come later will most probably not affect Canada or Europe... so
you can ask myself... Why do I care?
I care cause I don't want to see other people dying... I don't want to read in newspapers about
civilian casualties on the Arabic side and later as a revenge of Arabic’s .. on the American side. I
don't want to write emails every week to my friends in America (and other countries) asking them
whether they are okie, with fear that this time they maybe won't answer again...
I would like all people to see that with a military action as a revenge, cannot be solved anything,
but another revenge may be awaited. And the instability, hate and fear only increased.
To the end, let me repeat once again, that I am very sorry for what has happened. And I don't
think that US deserves this. BUT NO ONE DESERVES THIS!!!
And... it hurts me when I am reading the chat board notes realizing that something is between us,
something divides us and makes us angry or sad about the other people's opinions...
thank you for your attention,
maggie

Re(86): innocent people died (Krotana, Sep 15)            (Slovak)

Well said... I obviously tend to complicate things when they can be put down this clear and
simple...
peace
K.

hmm (Dracoon, Sep 16)                    (US)

i just want to say we will get over this we will live on
dracoon who wants to stop reading these notes and foget the incident but cant

response (Lore, Sep 16)          (US)

For one it saddens me to see people of other countries attack America for its attempts throughout
the world to try and make it better even if these attempts in right did not work they way they were
planned. No human being is perfect and there will always be repercussions of any action people
take for with every action people cheer for its results and people say that that action was not
necessary
I would like to say Americans do what they can more than any other country to help keep the
world at peace and yes this means helping people we sometimes would not help in a peace time
but to keep people from causing world problems it is what needs to be done.
Understanding of peoples bad remarks about US are easy for me to comprehend because of the
fact of my previous statement but if this happened in your country we Americans would not be
saying you deserved it but would be there in your aid to help you rebuild and find the responsible
party for the incident.
If not for our meddling as some people would say the world could be under rule of dictators or
possibly nuclear winter but our actions through our government have allowed the aversion of
such things and to the depletion of the possibility of events similar to them.
If by these actions you deem us deserving of the act, it saddens me to think about
PEACE and EQUALITY is what we Americans seek from the beginning of our country to help of
rebuilding countries to help them try to have a life as god as our own such as England and Japan
now enjoy through all of our help.
To see so many killed because we seek to help all who are deprived or forced into things they do


                                                                                                 26
not want makes me weep for those who can't live with themselves as who they are so they set out
to feel good by doing harm to others(terrorist bombing or flying planes into buildings or
whatever).
Not perfect but try do to what is right for the majority agreeing with vigi that we try our best and
sometimes fail but who doesn't at times
lore saddened by the occurrence in New York and Washington

Re(76): Note on US and the rest of World (Ravird, Sep 16)                  (US)

Gaius, I voted for Pat Bucannon(misspelling there, but that isn't the point), I had no part in
electing Bush. As I recall, the majority of the US population voted for gore, it was the collage
electorial system "loop hole" that Bush won. *recalls the mess election* So, personally, I think
your "theory" has little ground. Just wanted to point out your little flaw.

Justice and War (Ravird, Sep 16)                  (US)

Well, I said that I would discontinue from this discussion, but I find myself drawn back in. Am I
the only one that doesn't think their will be a war? Yes? No? I accept the the possiblity of it
happening, but I don't see the likely hood. Last I heard, Afghanistan was working out terms of
giving up information about Omasa bin Laden's where abouts.
I know one way or another, Omasa bin Laden will come to justice, we will just have to wait and
see, only time will tell for sure.

Ridiculous (Lynthell, Sep 16)              (US)

This is silly. What are you guys arguing about. First thing is that it shoudln't be going this way.
And second, America does very few things without the support of many other countries. America
is just the sword arm of the UN. Just because you all sit back and let America do the dirty work
them condemn us for doesn't mean that your countries are innocent. Yes, the middle East, yes
Vietnam, yes to most military conflicts. But besides that this should be a time for not old debates,
but new ideas. I live in New York City, and I think that it is sad that you all can't just pull
together, I mean New Yorkers did it.

rumour (Natalia, Sep 16)

i heard a terrible rumour today from my brother. I am sure it isn't true cuz i haven t found
anything on it. i heard that a nuclear power plant by me was going to be one of the terroists
targets... silly rumour my brother heard... couldn't be true at all. still it made me scared
i wish this all would stop...
sad,
natalia

reply (Gaius, Sep 16)            (Dutch)

My point was that the population as a whole is responsible for the leaders they chose.
Gaius

Re(81): innocent people died (Calis, Sep 16)              (Slovak)

Supaknight, you are right. But think about this:
If US ppl aren't responsible for what their government does, so aren't any other ppl in any other


                                                                                                    27
country, hit
by bombs either now, in the past or in the future.
That means your bombing attacking will only hit more innocents. Not to mention the single fact
that the terrorists will be already long gone on the other side of the world, watching the news the
way you do. Do you really think that if the Bin Laden dude is responsible, he is still waiting in
Afghanistan to watch the bombs falling at his head?

Read (Blim, Sep 16)              (US)

This is my only note on the subject, and it might be long but i ask that you read it since i will no
longer put my opinion of this subject on the board unless driven to do it ;)
Ok first of all, The American people did elect Bush, but you must look at it this way...it
DOESN'T matter to terrorists, Bush left the middle-east as it was with Clinton, he has taken no
major steps to either resolve the conflict or destroy the Palestinians (sp). So, whether Gore or
Bush, or if we had made a new law that let Clinton back in, were in presidency, we still would
have been attacked. The people responsible for this are those who hold religious grudges against
the US and seek to destroy the "Great Satan" (IMO of course).
Second, with or without retaliation the US or even the EU will be attacked again. You think that
just because the US was attacked this time, it cannot be the EU next time? We helped to liberate
Afghanistan (possibly a mistake) and they hate us for it. Maybe they will hate other countries
who try to stop the attacks from the US for fear that their cause will be demoralized and become
unmotivated.
And last, I can't understand why you would condemn the US calling us just as bad as Milosivic
(sp?), of course nothing would be the same in this world if the US had shut its doors and kept to
itself, forgetting every other nation except close allies and bordering nations, so who are you to
attack our people, gov., and culture? you or I could not be here if it weren't for the US and its
policies.
Blim
PS To any US military personal that may play this game, *salute*

calis (Blim, Sep 16)             (US)

The last part of my note was adressed to calis

Re(96): Read (Jillian, Sep 17)            (US)

I'm only going to post one time on here.
I am scared. I don't want my country to go to war. I have lots of family and friends in the military.
In fact Lazarus on here is in the Navy. He is 1 year younger than me (I'm 23) and I don't want him
to have to go to war. I am afraid that if we do go to war it will be worse than VietNam. Not only
will innocent people in other countries be killed but people from our country will be killed doing
what they are told to do. I have 2 friends that are in very dangerous positions right now. One is a
presidential guard. He was supposed to be getting out of the Marines and coming home on
Saturday Sept 15th and he isn't going to come home now. I don't want him to die either. I have
known him since I was 15 years old. He is one of my best friends. My other friend is a Airborn
Ranger and if we send in a small group of military for tactical defense he will be going. I don't
want to see him die either. I don't want to see anyone die. I have cried every day since this
happened. Not only for my friends that I may lose but for all the people that have already died.
The other thing I have been crying about is the hatred that is now going on in our country. I live
in DFW area of Texas and in my home town of Irving there was an attack at a Mosque. Someone
shot it up. There are little kids that go to school there and they could have been killed. Thank God


                                                                                                   28
no one was there yet. But it pains me to see ignorant racists attacking other people who came to
the US to try to escape some of the oppressive governments that we are supposed to be against. I
know these hate crimes will prolly just get worse within the next couple of weeks but I will not be
one to participate in that. I will stand up against my fellow American if I see them unjustly
attacking someone else.
Also, I am not going to say that America is perfect. I know we have made many mistakes in the
past and we will make more in the future. We are human beings just like everyone else.
This is all I have to say about the whole situation. One last thing, I just ask that if you do pray, to
whatever god you may pray to whatever his or her name is, just ask him/her to watch over the
whole world and protect everyone because the future is very uncertain now.
Jillian aka Hotohori aka Hoto-chan

thanx to all who care (Hollander, Sep 17)                   (US)

Hey there I know most of you know me and for the new ppl. Welcome to this wonderful mud. I
just want to say thanx to all of you who offer there support at such a difficult time we are facing.
Me as an American soldier stationed in Germany am in a very high level of stress. This is not a
time for every1 to be in a huge argument I believe it is time to come together that is why I fell the
need to write I usualy do not write on this board, but seeing the hundreds of notes posted I felt the
need to. I think that you all need to STOP assuming things when you really don't know what's
going to happen. I don't even know what is going to happen at this point in the investigations. I
am in the Military so how can you assume what is going to go on it's really getting on my nerves
all the speculations going on here..... You don't know what is going to happen so why do you
speculate??? Sorry if you think I am being rude, but I speak nothing, but the truth....
Love all of you eno matter you race, religion or even what country you are from...
Hollander the MIGHTY swordmage......

Conflict Resolution and Flaws in Argument (Cruncher, Sep 17)                         (Slovak)

Things to avoid in negotiation:
1. Generalizing + using past examples
- you come late to work -> you're always late
- USA made a mistake -> US actions are always wrong
- USA supports democracy -> USA is world's savior
- you hesitate about NATO's role in Serbia -> you support world terrorism
- you disagree with certain US actions -> you hate USA (you hate me)
2. Bringing up other situations
- you come late to work AND you spend whole day chattering
- USA terrorize the globe AND didn't even sign the Kyoto protocol
3. Counter-attacks, addressing people instead of issue
- you Americans! -> you Slovaks!
4. Escalation of commitment
- absolute dedication to defend your cause, no compromising, not listening to the opinions of the
opposing party

By 4 you are entrenched in your position. It is difficult (if not impossible) to arrive to any
reasonable solution. What usually follows:
A. lose/lose situation; conflict remains unresolved, both parties lose
B. win/lose situation; conflict decided by party with superior power (boss), the other party
remains bitter; lack of trust remains



                                                                                                    29
Conflict Resolution Strategies you 1. 4.
1. Contending (dominating) win
2. Yielding (accommodating) | 5.
3. Inaction (avoiding) |
4. Problem Solving (collaborating) | 3. 2.
5. Compromising +----------------------------them win
Note: 4. is a win/win situation, 3. is a lose/lose situation

Successful Negotiation
- understanding of the other party
- paying attention to similarities / differences
- focus on problem
- free flow of information (honesty & trust required)
- focus on objective solution

Crunch took a Conflict Resolution course last semester (most lessons with US lector from US
textbooks :)
PS I was told even the cranky Slovak nuclear plant is shielded and can take a direct hit of an
airplane fully loaded with conventional armament. I bet your plants are safer.

WTC demon (Divine, Sep 17)

By posting this, I definitely don't want to make fun of the WTC tragedy. Some of you might still
want to look at this. There are people there who probably believe it. The most eager zealots have
already found the real guilty party of the WTC tragedy:
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~miikap2/wtc666/
The site is in Finnish but the pictures probably speak for themselves. The text doesn't offend the
tragedy victims. I can provide translations if someone is interested.
Divine

Re(100): Conflict Resolution and Flaws in Argument (Krotana, Sep 17)                  (Slovak)

And I always thought management was about nothing and useless ;)
K.

Re(100): Conflict Resolution and Flaws in Argument (Eddy, Sep 17)                     (Dutch)

From what I see it was a good book
Eddy

Re(94): reply (Dominic, Sep 18)

You cannot hold individual people responsible for the leaders they choose as
a nation, gaius. The influence an individual has, is, within democratic boundaries, very limited.
On top of that, I believe (I'm not sure, maybe one of the people from the US can verify this) that
New York voted Gore in majority. My opinion on the elective system in the US is that it's flawed,
yes, but for me, that's no reason to be any less sad about this terrible disaster. Besides, I think that
making a direct connection between the election of Bush jr. and the bombing of the WTC is a bit
shortsighted.
I wish the US people every bit of luck and success in rebuilding these buildings and their sense of



                                                                                                     30
security.
Dominic

Re(104): reply (Yance, Sep 18)           (US)

You are correct in New York voting for Gore, virtually every major metropolitan area in the US
voted that way, with the rural areas and Texas voting for Jr.
Yance the remembering monk, remembering the 'fun' election, but thinking Bush Jr. is handling
things well at this time. We shall see what the future holds.

Rehashing a touchy subject (Stormtosser, Sep 20)                  (US)

Okay, the topic had died down, so I apologize for reopening the wound as it were, but I just
logged on and waded through that whole series of posts and I am so p*ssed that I feel I must
respond. My hope is that some of these previous posts were also attempts
to blow off steam and frustration about the recent events , regardless of what opinions you all
have. That said, the people I am really mad at here are the ones who can say, "U.S., welcome to
the pain faced by the rest of the world." Thousands who had no warning were slain in an instant,
with a likely plan to follow up with the second tower at a time when those who would be trying to
rescue survivors of the first attack would be in place and also vulnerable. I am apalled at the
callous responses to a loss of that magnitude. My thoughts turn to the families who lost fathers,
mothers, sons, and daughters in this tragedy.
The U.S. is not perfect, they have performed atrocities in the past. Grow up, there is not any of
you who can claim your country or people is free of that stigma. I somehow doubt any of you
would claim your civilians deserve a similar fate. For those who claim the U.S. should turn the
other cheek and not participate in the further killing of innocents, I am afraid I must disagree.
Because of our "morals", we will attempt to minimize the collateral damage. Be thankful we have
any "morals" because in today's world, there are
few nations with such compunctions. If countries which hide cowardly terrorists won't bring
forward these criminals to face a world judicial system, then I believe the U.S. will have little
choice left other than to eradicate the bases which house known terrorists and potentially attack
any country's military who gets in our way when we make this attempt.
Why? Because in the reality of our world, those who turn their cheek get slapped on the other
cheek. The forgiving part of me rebels
at such a statement, but the realistic part of me knows with dread that this is true. I don't argue
that we will likely get slapped again whichever path we take. I somehow can't justify sitting here
and getting slapped without some consequences for the slappers. The Israelis may be ruthless in
defense of a land that is not truly their own, but they and their way of life would be gone long
since if they were not. In a similar fashion, the U.S. freedoms are still around because we have
not been afraid to slap back when attacked. We have been attacked.
Because of who we are, we won't carpet bomb innocent civilians. (At least not now, we actually
did back in WWII) If peaceful means are not available to bring the guilty parties to justice, then
because of the reality of our world, I have no qualms if the U.S. decides to slap back. I have no
delusions that these statements will change any opinions, but since some of you have chosen not
to be sympathetic, I am venting my anger here in an open discussion forum with the hopes that
doing so will at least allow me to stomach
your callousness and continue playing on this mud.
Stormtosser, the p.o.'d Paladin
(and it takes alot to get me riled up)




                                                                                                31
Re(121): Rehashing a touchy subject (Dominic, Sep 20)            (not from US)

I sympathise with your anger, Stormtosser.
However, I strongly disagree with your opinion, that "there are few nations with such
compunctions" (where you are talking about morals. Granted, the atrocity that happened does let
one think that the world has fallen to barbarism, but please reconsider, as to my opinion, the
people (and countries) that support violence and terrorism are very few, if you view them over the
entire globe. Please, do not lose your faith in humanity and in a peaceful world order, for again,
the people that can do things like this are a small minority, although of course a highly visible
minority.
Again, my sympathies are with you.
Dominic

Re(121): Rehashing a touchy subject (Ree, Sep 20)                    (not from US)

I feel horrendous at wghat happened I think there are few here that are not appaled at what
happened
What I am getting increasingly appaled at, however Is the completely self-absorbed attitudes that
I'm feeling from some people who think the usa is perfect, and beyond reproach now, I know this
whole tsubject is touchy Just because some of us have thoughts and ideas on world history and
events does not meaqn that we believe that innocent people in the usa, or anywhere deserve to be
bobmbed now i know i should be speaking for myself only i'm just frustrated

Re(126): Rehashing a touchy subject (Centaurus, Sep 20)

*sigh* I guess I feel obligated to throw my two cents in after wading through this mess of notes..
Personally, I think our media has blown this way out of proportion... It has led to vigilantism
which some one mentioned already, and is most likely going to lead to war.. which I think is a
bad idea...
I agree, the guilty have to be punished, but we don't have any proof that Osama ben Laden is
behind this... Knowing him, he would have claimed responsibility for the attacks, minutes after it
happened..
Anyway I think it's Naive to assume that if we go in, we will eradicate all the terrorists bases... for
one thing, even if we do, all it will do is create more terrorists willing to die for their beliefs... I
mean what do they have to lose if their neighbor does something stupid, and they get punished for
it...
On another note, people keep saying that Afghanistan is protecting ben Laden and we have every
right to go in there...
Well, Afghanistan is willing to give up bin Laden, in exchange for legitimizing their
government... the US refused. It seems that the US has already decided who is responsible and
will make them pay...
For this I truly fear the consequences, for if a Jihad is declared in unity by all the Islamic factions,
then the western world will have some to be extremely frightened of... Even the eastern world...
Anyway, I'm just advocating for people to calm down, and think rationally, not emotionally, for
if we act without thought, then they have already won... and it will be a dark time for the world
over...
Phew.. that's a long post.. I guess I had a bunch to get off my chest...
Cent, the transplanted Californian nut..




                                                                                                     32
Arabs (Blim, Sep 21)              (US)

I will not respond to the last note even though I have some disagreements, I want to say this
I don't care what we do know, that is up to our gov. What i care about is the innocent arabs and
muslims who are being heckled on our streets. When they entered this country they were
guaranteed the freedom that every American gets. The shiite(sp) branch of islam is considerably
smaller than the other branches, and to drive cars into moschs (sp), not let Arabs on airplanes or
throw them off (as I have recently heard), and to shoot, make racial slurs, and in any way attack
someone of Arab decent is putrid and disgusting and i say it's not what our gov. does now but
how we the people of any country who has lost citizens respond to this and allow the same
freedom we are entitled to those others who have suffered from this same tragedy.
Blim

Re(122): Rehashing a touchy subject (Stormtosser, Sep 21)                   (US)

I am not saying that there are alot of terrorist countries in the world, I am saying that there are
few militaries in this world who give a rats *ss about avoiding civilian casualties. If it were
almost anyone else, they'd hardly give it half the attempt that the US always makes to keep from
hitting innocents.
Stormtosser
(The Paladin who thinks fighting with such restrictions is like trying to wield a salmon against a
knight on a horse)

Re(126): Rehashing a touchy subject (Stormtosser, Sep 21)                   (US)

If you will note from my message, I did not say the US was perfect, I agreed that they have
committed attrocities. What torques me is that people here seem to think their own countries are
above reproach. Like any other country would sit back and take the slap, waiting for another one
to come.
Stormtosser

Re(130): Rehashing a touchy subject (Stormtosser, Sep 21)                   (US)

As a matter of fact, most of them would probably ask for the US to assist them in their efforts for
justice, be it with political, economic, or military pressure.
Stormtosser

Re(130): Rehashing a touchy subject (Ree, Sep 21)

who said their country was perfect? i don't think i've heard anything like that in all these
discussions but, then again, i haven't heard all the discussion

Stormtosser (Danno, Sep 22)               (Canadian)

I was not attempting to speak for every one. I meant only that it seems society as a whole is
beggining to hear enough about this from every front and would maybe like at least one place
where they can get away from it. I speak from hearing my friends and family all speaking this
way, so i thought myself justified in making the appeal that i did. I'm sorry if you aren't done
venting frusterations Stormtosser, feel free to rant on as long as you wish
Danno



                                                                                                   33
a minute of silence (Ukyo, Oct 4)                (Mexican)

A minute of silence...
if you're still shocked for what happened on september 11, take your time to give a minute of
silence for the almost 10,000 americans, mostly civilians, cowardly murdered by terrorists still
not known
since you're in silence already, stay like that for another 13 minutes for the 130,000 civilian
iraquies killed by orders of george bush Sr. in 1991and remember how the americans cheered like
the palestinians on sept. 11 add to it, 20 minutes for the 200,000 iranies killed by american
weapons provided to saddam hussein by the americans, that lately iraq used it agains US Another
15 minutes for the for the 150,000 russians and afgans dead by the hand of the talibans, with
weapons and orders of the US who trained the talibans
another 10 minutes for the 100,000 japanese dead at hiroshima and nagazaki if you did it, you
have been in silence for an hour ( a minute for the americans, and 59 for all the victims of the
americans) if you feel surprised, stay another hour quiet, for the vietnam war, that is not too
comfy for the americans to talk about it...... anybody remembers the attack of USA to Bagdad?
where 18,000 people died, not 10,000 like at twin towers? anybody saw it on CNN? or another
channel at the world? i guess not...

Re(163): a minute of silence (Thaylok, Oct 4)             (US)

There is NO George Bush Sr..... Only the liberal media and other idiots call President Bush that
There is: President George Herbert Walker Bush, and his son President George Walker Bush.
EVERYONE deserves enough respect to be called by their proper name. IT is not.. President
John Adams, and John Adams Jr.... it is: President John Adams, and President John Quincy
Adams...
Hmm no one made that mistake... Goes to show how uneducated most are.

Re(164): a minute of silence (Hessef, Oct 4)

<<< There is:
President George Herbert Walker Bush, and his son President George Walker Bush. >>>
Um....let me check something.
12345678901234567890123456
George Herbert Walker Bush
When it takes twenty-six characters to identify a person properly, people are going to start
looking for short cuts, even if they aren't technically correct. That's one of the reasons that the
current president has gone by the nickname of Dubya.
<<< EVERYONE deserves enough respect to be called by their proper name. >>>
Well, if we're going to correct everyone about using George Herbert Walker Bush, we should
correct people regarding the pronouciation of Tokyo. After all, the word Tokyo does not have
three syllables and the abuse of the proper name of Japan's capitol should be stopped. Then we
can head over to Tokyo and straighten out the katakana system of writing. After all, if you you
write President Bill Clinton's name using Japanese symbols, the result is something that is
prounced something like Bee-ru Ku-rin-tun.
Can't have stuff like that.
Then there's Viet Nam. No, there are not two syllables in the word Viet. Who can complain about
a person's name being abused when an entire country is not being called by its proper name?
Even worse is the word "Spain". The word "Spain" is only somewhat close to word "España"--
only the three letters "spa" made it through intact.
The word "Germany", of course, is worse--just how does one get "Germany" out of the word


                                                                                                34
"Deutschland"? Don't the Deutsch have the right to be called Deutsch instead of Germans?
Or maybe we could all relax and simply state the technically correct name of the current
president's father without tossing around insults?
--Hessef likes to take things to their logical extremely-extremes.

Re(163): a minute of silence (Haralitha, Oct 6)                    (US)

or...Ukyo, you could just keep silent.
*Hara throws another bone to the border patrol dogs*

Ukyo (Blim, Oct 7)               (US)

actually, I am an American, but I agree wit ukyo.....i mean come on, after this attack happened i
am postiive many of you (Americans myself included) sat around the nice warm dinner in a nice
air-conditioned room, and cired for justice! right? and then you went to bed that night ina nice
warm bed, under a roof that no matter how small kept you warm and cool when you need it, and
you dreamt of justice! right?
How about all those people who we _will_ be bombing if we do take that course of action, the
people who will be affected are in a living hell and have no voice, cannot be heard, we will not be
hurting the terrorists by a full scale attack on Afghanistan, we will be igniting a holy war which
bush jr has already begun to fuel by using words like "this is good (usa) vs evil (meant to mean
terrorism but just as easily spread to these ignorant people as islam or moslem or arabs)
so who ever gave us the right to shout for retaliation? when we have never even lived in the
conditions these people lived in, have eaten more food in 10 years then they do in their lifetime,
and in the end, we will solve nothing....and thats what i have to say about that
blim

Re(176): Ukyo (Dracoon, Oct 7)                    (US)

so you saying let others hurt us by bombing or destroying our stuff and not do anything about it
nor im saying bombing afganistan is right but i dont think just cos they live poorer then us we
should not retaliate
dracoon

Re(177): Ukyo (Hessef, Oct 7)

Bin Laden != Afghanistan
Tailban != Afghanistan
There's quite a few people in Afghanistan that would like to get rid of the Tailban just as much, if
not more, than we do.
It's a complex world, and if we just start bombing random targets, we'll end up looking worse
than Bin Laden. That doesn't mean that we cannot avenge the deaths at the WTC, it just means
we have to be careful that we take out the Taliban and not those who are suffering because of the
Taliban.
--Hessef is glad that the US is taking the slow and sure approach to this situation

Re(176): Ukyo (Supaknight, Oct 7)                 (US)

Did I go to bed thinking of Justice that night? Yes, because I don't want to live in a world where
terrorism is condoned and goes unpunished.
Here are some facts:


                                                                                                 35
-Ben Ladin is a known terrorist. (whether or not he did this)
-Ben Ladin admitted he looks at military and civilians the same.
-The government of Afghanistan harbors and does not punish Ben Ladin.
So those are some facts, y'all come up with your own conclusions.
I would also like to add that in times like this, hard decisions must be made. Such as do we do
nothing and allow Ben Ladin to continue to kill people based on their faith (judaism and
christianity he hates the most) or nationality, or do we do something and risk killing people who
are not terrorists? Whatever the correct answer is, if there is one, I hope my country is smart,
couragous, and strong enough to do what is right, whatever that may be. But remember the
government knows things we don't, so their decision may be based on stuff we don't know about.
And one more thing: Ukyo was right that we should mourn the loses other countries losses.
-Supaknight

Re(179): Ukyo (Calis, Oct 7)              (Slovak)

For now, US has been unable to prove that bin laden was behind these attacks. All they say
is that
they have proof, but no one has seen it. If it was a 100% sure evidence, why wouldn't they
reveal it to the public? And, if it is just a construction to blame him (he has done it, now we have
to find the evidence ), it wouldn't be enough to persuade us...

Re(180): Ukyo (Gylvain, Oct 7)

Revealing the proof would entail revealing the source of the proof, which would mean revealing
US intelligence sources and agents. Which, as I understand it, probably isn't a very good idea for
the US and the agents who's lives would be at risk
->Gyl

Re(180): Ukyo (Supaknight, Oct 7)                 (US)

Calis, you and many others are missing the whole point. Ben Ladin is a known terrorist. The US
has tapes of him bragging about past terrorist actions he has commited, such as the USS Cole
bombings. Prove to me he is not, with more convincing evidence than Ben Ladin confessing to it
on video tape.
For this, Ben Ladin must be punished, and should have been punished as soon as the US had
those tapes. But not punished by bombing and soldiers, but by snipers. He must be killed silently.
His corpse should not be paraded around and show on CNN, becuase that would only make him a
martyr. We need to kill him and very few people need to know we did it, if any.
I think the US would make a huge mistake by bombing Afghanistan or sending soldiers in.
Becuase many Afghans do not like the Taliban, in fact there is currently a revolution to overthrow
the Taliban.

Re(179): Ukyo (Blim, Oct 7)               (US)

<<Here are some facts:-Ben Ladin is a known terrorist. (whether or not he did this)-Ben Ladin
admitted he looks at military and civilans the same.-The government of Afghanistan harbors and
does not punsih Ben Ladin. >>
Bin laden makes no disctinction (sp) betwen military and civilians, so then when we say we won't
either then we are just as low as he is.
I don't really care what we do, punishing bin laden will not stop terror attacks on our country,
sure, they will slow down, but there will be others and we cannot arrest every man in the mid-east


                                                                                                  36
that has the possibility of turning into a terrorist, hold on just lost my thought, ok sorry we cannot
arrest every man because we don't know what will happen with them and we have no right to go
in there and arrest every suspicious looking man.
Somebody explain to me how this war on terrorism is going to stop the attacks and get every
terrorist??
Blim

Re(183): Ukyo (Hessef, Oct 7)

<<< Somebody explain to me how this war on terrorism is going to stop the attacks and get every
terrorist?? >>> It won't. That's not a reason not to do it.
Hospitals fail to cure every sick patient--there are many who die while surgeons attempt risky
surgeries that might have saved their lives. Human imperfection, however, is not a reason to stop
all surgeries. We'll always have terrorists on this planet. However, having less terrorism is better
than doing nothing.
--Hessef

Patients (Blim, Oct 7)            (US)

That is a bad annalogy in some respect, because when a terrorist is arrested there is a good chance
of his family members joining the "crusade", when a patient is saved they do not turn against the
docotr, nor when he isn't saved. I think that there is no easy answer but that by attacking and
arresting terrorists it can only cause more support for them, how much or lessi don't know but that
is just what i think.
blim

Parallels with history. (Supaknight, Oct 7)                (US)

The recent events do have some parallels with history.
In the first half of the 20th century, a country came out of a war. Afghanistan came out of a war
with the USSR not too long ago.
This country was torn to pieces and the economy was ruined. Afhanistan is also torn to pieces
and has a bad economy. Then a man came to take advantage of the situation, of the people who
suffered hardships and were ready for change.
Bin Laden is taking advantage of the people's hardships, and getting them to do suicide
bombings. The man had a hatred for certain races, especially Jews. Bin Laden hates certain races,
especially Jews. This man was not in charge of the government at first, but he still had people to
do his biddings for him. Bin Laden is not in charge of the government but certainly has people to
do his biddings for him.
This man began to commit atrocities against the races he didn't like. Bin Laden commits atrocities
against races he does not like. Now here is where it starts getting different, and hopefully Bin
Laden will not follow this course: This man eventually got control of the government.
He conquered other countries, and Britain, France, and America sat back and did nothing, Britain
and France following appeasment policies, where America was an isolitionist. His power grew,
and he remained just as evil as ever.
Britain, France, and America eventually had to go to war, but they did so too late, and this man
and his army had too much power. The war lasted years, millions died, and the Allies almost lost.
When the war was over America claimed it would not be so stupid again, and not allow such a
man to have so much power.
How many lives would have been saved if this man would have been killed sooner? Not only
would the lives of British people, French people, and American people have been saved, but


                                                                                                   37
people of that man's own country.
It is also important to note that not all the people from his country supported his actions, and there
were many attempts to remove him from power. And the people who did follow him, had just
suffered starvation, disease, and poverty, and just wanted change, so they did not necessarily
agree with what he did, but went with him becuase he promised jobs, money, and a mighty army.
Maybe we can learn from that. Maybe if we send more aid to Afghanistand they will be less
likely to assist Ben Ladin. Maybe if we help out the Afghans they will not hate us as much.
Why won't people learn from history?
It took Hitler many years to gain power. The Allies said he could not. When he did they said he
would not do anything to them. It was almost too late when the Allies started to stop Hitler. Let's
not make the same mistake.
Will Bin Laden follow the same or similar path as Hitler?
I don't know, but I can tell you one thing, I do not want to find out when it is too late again.
People will say it is unlikely Bin Laden could do that.People said that Hitler couldn't and wouldn't
do it. And people will say that comparing Hitler to Bin Laden is a bit extreme. Well it isn't, Bin
Laden murders innocents based on their race, religion, and nationality. Just becuase the specifics
aren't the same, i.e. Hitler used camps, where Bin Laden uses bombs and planes, it doesnt mean it
isn't the same.
People will say Bin Laden has been provoked. Ben Ladin claims he is doing this becuase there
are US soldiers in Mecca. Well those soldiers are there becuase of Sadam Huisane (dunno how to
spell his name sorry;P )and his chemical weapons, if they left what would stop Sadam from using
the chemical weapons?
One more thing, imagine how much better Germany would have been if Hitler had been
assassinated earlier. They would not have to live with what happened to the Jewish people who
were slaughtered in such a horrible manner, and with the sons, daughters, parents, grandparents,
siblings, friends, and everyone else they lost in that horrible war.
I also admit Bin Laden may not be as bad as Hitler, yet, but remember the saying : "Those who
do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
Well personally I have no desire to repeat WW2.
P.S. I do not intend to offend anyone with this, I am just pointing out some parallels with history.
And if I do offend someone I am sorry.

And so it begins....... (Danno, Oct 7)             (Canadian)

Today, America launched it's first in a series of strikes against Al Qaeda
and the Taliban, in their attempt to destroy terrorism. They've destroyed the central command
area of Kandahar airport, and claim that they intend to attack nothing but Al Qaeda and Taliban
assets. The taliban ammasador in pakistan has denounced these attacks as being terrioist in nature
themselves, and large muslim centers in the Middle East have denounced the attacks as barbaric
and unwarranted. And to some extent I'm inclined to agree. I know that the attacks on New York
and Washington were tragic, and someone does have to pay for them. But as our parents have
been telling us for years, Two wrongs don't make a right. President Bush in his address to the
nation today said something to the effect of "your course is clear, your objectives are clear, and
your cause is just." Now is it just me, or does this sound suspiciously like something Osama Bin
Laden and Al Qaeda would say to their operatives? Nearly every terrorist and fanatic in the
history of terrorism has been sure of the fact that they fought for justice. The view that many
people have of these attacks are that, whether justified or not, the reason for the attacks on
Washington and New York were retrubution for the meddling foreign policy that the USA has
practiced for years. So on the scale of cause and effect, America acted first, then the terrorists got
even. By attacking back in retribution, we will simply provoke more attacks, which will provoke
more retributions. Now Supaknight was drawing parallels to history, and on that note, this seems


                                                                                                   38
awfully like how the Cold War got started. Cause-and-effect is something that I'm not sure
President Bush considered, considering that this is the same man who, during the Presidential
elections, said he thought the Taliban was a rock group.
Danno (who thinks that America is setting themselves up for some BAD stuff)

Re(187): And so it begins....... (Danno, Oct 7)            (Canadian)

And before all of the super-patriotic Americans who are gonna jump down my throat get on my
case, I just want to say that these are my opinions, and I respect yours, so you respect mine. There
have been several posts in the past few weeks that i very much did not agree with, and some that i
considered downright ignorant. And I did not say anything to that effect to anyone. So if you
view my opinion as unintelligent, stupid or any thing of that sort, please keep it to yourself, or
send me a mudmail to that effect. This should be a forum for opinions, not criticisms of out
opinions. I would love nothing more than to respond to any feedback you have on my opinions,
so feel free to mudmail me. But let's keep this board civilised if it's at all possible.
Danno

Re(186): Parallels with history. (Farseer, Oct 7)          (from Europe)

Geesh, I'm usually silent on recent political issues, and I am by no means a student in history. But
this was quite ridiculous.
Not only because of the way every point was twisted and bent in the effort to find a parallelism,
but also because of the underlying idea that history is led on its path by the whims, will and
madness of a few leaders.
Sure, if Hitler had been assassinated history would have been different. But who gave him his
power? Who led those jews into sealed train wagons, who pulled the triggers, who devised the
gas showers, who in the end did commit the shoah (sp)?
Millions did. Of their own free will.
Who wanted a strong leader, who wanted a revenge over those nations who had beaten Germany
and were still strangling its economy with absurd post-WWI sanctions?
Who wanted war, and approved of the 'search for vital space' policy? Millions did.
Today, we have been pointed at Bin Laden. He's a murderer, he's a monster. But
have you wondered what his power is and comes from? And have you wondered how
many ppl agree with him, and why?
/F

Re(189): Parallels with history. (Danno, Oct 7)            (Canadian)

that is very much the exact point i'm trying t make Farseer.
Danno (who thinks that Farseer lives up to name)

Re(189): Parallels with history. (Rathan, Oct 7)           (US)

Desperation and terror are motivations of their own. Hitler was in Germany at a time when their
economy was starting to fail, and the people needed something to hang on to, someone to blame -
who better than the moneychangers, which, being almost exclusively Jewish, got the blame
extended to the entire religion. People needed to find a reason for the failures, and Hitler provided
them with a target for blame and a solution... they chose to take it.
Religion is a great way to convince people you're right - when you have an all-powerful being as
your cause, you tend to feel justified.
On a similar note to Farseer's point that Bin Laden didn't just gain power for no reason, people


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had to give it to him, try reading some Milton, it has a similar story about another disliked
character of history (you might have heard of him).
I don't know how World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks
and stones - Einstein

Re(104): Parallels with history. (Rowan, Oct 8)          (US)

Sadly I write this note to say that the bombing has started.
Last night around 7pm finnish time/noon east coast of the US time.

Re(95): Ukyo (Calis, Oct 8)              (Slovak)

According to the laws of justice and democracy, a person doesn't have to prove he is not guilty.
The other side has to prove that the suspect is guilty, not the other way around...

fighting terrorism (Vigilante, Oct 8)

The actions being taken in Afghanistan now come about from the following line of reasoning:
1) Terrorist groups are, by nature, difficult to find, infiltrate, and/or erradicate.
2) Terrorist groups are decentralized and, even when well-funded, require a training ground or
terriotory in which to organize.
3) Every territory on earth has some kind of government body that claims responsibility for that
territory.
4) These government bodies, unlike terrorist groups, are easy to find, negotiate with, and strike
against.
Thus, to reduce terrorist groups' effectiveness, their safe havens can be pressured. This can be
done far more easily and effectively than trying to chase down the terror groups themselves, due
to lack of knowledge of the groups' movements and plans. The pressure can be of the diplomatic
kind, offering carrots (help us get those groups and we'll help you out) or sticks (shut those
groups down or we'll take
it out on you).
When these measures fail, there are only two choises left. One is to give up, accept the presence
of these groups and attempt to defend against their future moves. The other is to neutralize their
havens, reducing or destroying their ability to act in the future.
This is akin to the building of the Panama Canal. At the time, the canal faced a crisis: malaryia.
Mosquitos from the surrounding swamps infected the work force, and the planners had to make a
decision. They could give up on the canal, or drive off the insects. They chose to combat the
source of the disease, but because there was no effective way to swat all the mosquitoes, they
decided to drain the swamps in the surrounding
areas. With no more breeding grounds, the mosquitoes no longer were able to hamper the canal
workers.
The U.S. coalition has chosen to drain the swamp.
Vigilante

Re(109): fighting terrorism (Farseer, Oct 8)             (from Europe)

"The U.S. coalition has chosen to drain the swamp."
The trouble is that imo they're still trying to swat the mosquitos, really.
Bin Laden may be very dangerous, and stopping him will probably place a dent in the offensive
capacity of several terrorist groups. But still, draining the swamp would mean going to the
real roots of the problem:


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1) the israelo-palestinian conflict
2) the ingerence of US in the internal affairs of several arab countries, not last that saudi
arabia where Bin Laden comes from
/F

Re(107): Ukyo (Keli, Oct 8)                (US)

Actually, I think in Britain you are guilty until you prove you are innocent.. that could have
changed.. I don’t know.. but, I think that is why the US had done it the other way... you know, we
were rebelling against everything Britain did...

infinite justice? (Ukyo, Oct 8)            (Mexican)

well, this is what many of us didn't want to happen, war has arisen since Sunday, some ppl here
said, we can just send a couple of seal corps grab Bin Laden, and then judge him, first of all, it
was so unreal, that
i think you have seen too much TV lately, so made the US judges of the world?
who told them that they are fair and square, when they've abused many countries, including
mexico, failing to their own word on his deals, i think US must fix first it's streets, keep boys
away of drugs and weapons
and maybe then, try to teach the world their way, they called their plan 'infinite justice, now I can
only see infinite murder, and I really hope US loses this war, I hope Afghanis destroy every
plane that violates their territory, and kill every soldier that intends to invade, maybe then, US
will understand they're not invincible, neither the world judges, this really drives me mad, this is
an useless attack, since US is just
giving terrorists what they want, an excuse for more violence, an excuse to kill more americans,
and to destroy more, i wish that the day comes, when george W. Bush has to bow deep to osama
bin laden and
apologizes for killing innocents, and begging for his life

Re(112): infinite justice? (Blim, Oct 9)           (US)

All i have to say is that the US is no perfect country but how many Mexicans flee here ukyo? how
many people do you know that now live in America, we give everyone a chance for a better life,
they might not be the best conditions on the streets but opportunities are there in nearly every
scenario of a poor immigrant coming to our country. do not hammer our country and condemn
our actions and tell us to clean up OUR streeets when i'm pretty sure though not positive that
most of the drugs come from mexico, and i think you should reconsider who you are siding with
because we are defending YOUR freedom as well as most of the other countries in this world, the
attacks will not stop with the US, they hate catholics, christians, jews, buddhists, and hindus
alike, so cheer on bin Laden if our boys get shot down and i will ask you what you think when it
is latin americas turn to be the target of cowardly attacks, and i will tellyou to bow down to him,
and maybe you will regret your words and wished that we won.
PS the operation is no longer called infinate justice but Enduring freedom

afterthought (Blim, Oct 9)                 (US)

i realize christians and catholics fit into the same group, just thought of that but well whatever




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such hate (Thaylok, Oct 9)                  (US)

I wish you all would grow up...
1) as Americans.. we should realize.. that the whole world hates us as a whole.. not as
individuals.. they may stop to think about our actions.. and who we are on an individual level but
as a whole they hate us
This is a shame.. but it is the way it is
2) When you realize 1... you will maybe grow up enough to calm down and think rationally....
Most of us come to MS to get away from all of this hate

Please Don't (Danno, Oct 9)                 (Canadian)

We don't want to try and make you leave Keli. I don't know if you have been getting the
impression that we all hate Americans or something, because I don't think that's true at all. Some
people have simply expressed the thought that maybe the US is overreacting. I know that I do not
bear any ill will towards Americans as individuals or as a whole, and I think that a lot of us
international players think the same way. I'd hate to see someone leave because they don't feel
welcome in what should be a very welcoming friendly place. Just a thought.
Danno .oO(can't we all just get along)

um something else (Yance, Oct 9)                   (US)

Just wanted to say that yes we are dropping bombs, which are 'supposed' to hit Terrorist/Taliban
targets to hinder the taliban's ability to send jets and planes against the US forces. I don't know
why or the thoughts
behind our government, but have heard of the intents to overthrow the Taliban, since it harbors
known terrorist groups.
Now on another note, which i haven't seen here and needs to be brought to the forefront.
The people doing the bombing(not just the US people, but a group of nations) are also dropping
humanitarian packets of food over Afghanistan for the people that the bombings are near. So that
the civilians are getting some relief of food, since so many in the country are starving.
Are civilians gonna get bombed? probably but that is not the intention.
Is the US always the bad guy, i guess so, since we try to help, and don't always help the way that
everyone thinks should do. I have a question for all,
Are there any of you that have NEVER made anyone mad in thier entire life??
I can answer that for you, NOPE, we are all human, and as such, do make mistakes in the eyes of
others, even if we didn't think it was a mistake at the time.
Yance the American that thinks we all need to step back and chill.

Re(114): infinite justice? (Argon, Oct 9)                 (Mexican)

Just a couple of precisions Blim, most drugs in the US come from Asia and Sudamerica not
Mexico. And second most of Mexicans that go in the US don't have a better life than they have
here in Mexico, they living conditions are shameful, but I think you know the USD is a much
stronger currency than the Mexican peso, so their relatives can have in Mexico a better life,
finally most Mexicans just go temporary in the months they can get hired for agricultural labors
and then return for the rest of the year to Mexico, so they don't really immigrate.
Finally, i just say one thing about the military actions and the terrorism actions. I fell shame for
all of us as human kind, in thousands of years of existence, we still guide our actions by emotions
and instinct, we are so close in our minds that we judge everything in our own measures, we
always think in our interests and we don't care what we have to do to get what we want. I hope


                                                                                                 42
we can change for better.
Argon who is very disappointed of humankind right now

Freedom, Peace, and other thoughts (Ree, Oct 9)

All the freedom in the world that anyone can give me or protect for me isn't worth anything if I
can't say what I think even if what I think goes against what they think.
Peace. We make war so we can have peace. Do we really have peace?
It's just ugly, all of this but the world isn't going to end life is just going to go on and there is
beauty everywhere

Re(120): infinite justice? (Blim, Oct 9)            (US)

whoops sorry about the drugs thing, like i said i didn't know, sorry again

my view (Cruncher, Oct 9)                  (Slovak)

Uhm, I think USA has no reason to stay in sackcloth and ashes for acting against Taliban. Forget
about Calis, if you manage to slay Osama, the world would be a better place; and if you also
manage to overthrow Taliban, Afghans would only be better off. So far afraid you did nothing to
be ashamed of.
About hating USA, hmm, I wouldn't say that entire world would hate you.. I presume GB likes
you.. France might hate you for you mcdonalds and movies.. Germany.. no reason to hate you I
guess.. Central / Eastern Europe: some people probably still stick to Russia and might hate you..
others prolly adore ya... Arabs probably think world would be a better place without USA (but
some certainly like to trade with ya), Israel should like ya, SE Asia should like you as a trading
partner at least... don't know about others.. most ppl I'd say are just plain jealous
Btw, I don't really understand why Mexicans are so mad at US, I never studied that (or cared), I
am just curious now. All I know about us-mex stuff is NAFTA, maquiladora and that US
renegates are always safe once they cross the border to Mexico in the movies... Oh and I also saw
that X-Files part about la chupa cabra.. or something like that.. Isn't that related to Mexico, too?
Crunch, jealous a bit, too (significantly less jealous after Sept 11 :( )

My view on this (Ravird, Oct 10)                    (US)

Well, first off, I will start with Mexico. They hate the US? Didn't know that, I heard they were
one of the first countries willing to aid the US.

And lets us something everyone can understand this time, lets say, you poke a tiger with a stick,
how many times do you think you can poke it before it bites back? If you can do it once without
biting, then you are lucky. How many attacks did bin Laden arrange against the US? Or for that
matter, arrange against any country? Lets use this example for those that are against the US
hunting terrorists, say someone is pointing a gun at you, bang, shoots you in the shoulder. You
think, not entirely fatal, lets do nothing about it. Bang! Oh, well, my leg hurts now, but hey, if I
don't do anything, they will stop, I am sure of it! Bang! Bang! Bang!
Now, for Afganistan, as far as I know, they have been at civil war for some time now. Between
the Taliban and the Northern Alliance, and as far as I know again, more people favor the
Northern Alliance.
The US has been targeting AA positions and things for the sort, so that they can deploy ground
forces and drop supplies to the refugees. Even though all this happening, the worst hurt to the
Taliban forces is desertion, now think about that, they must not believe in what they are fighting


                                                                                                        43
for.
As for the Guilty/Not Guilty laws used in the US. Before one can have a trial, they need to be
arrested, and Police officers are permitted to use letal force if resorted too. The fact that
Afganistan is supporting bin Laden's efforts instead of condeming them, is what caused the
military action. If they would have jailed him a long time ago, do you think the US would be
doing bombing runs now?
So, I shall end up with saying, war is older than anyone can remember or date, wars of words, of
minds, of destruction. The facts are, when everyone starts thinking the same, I believe there will
be no more wars. And facts are, I will never see that in my life time and I am sure my great grand
childern won't see it either. War isn't best way, but sometimes it is the only way. All you that are
opposed the war against terrorism, will likely still be, but think for a second, every country, I am
sure has been at war one time or another and I am sure, not all of those wars were aiming for as a
good goal as ending terrorism.
Sure, it will be long and hard. You might ask why is the US doing it? Well, who else will? BTW,
I am not meaning to exclude the other countries aiding the US in the efforts, they are just over
looked when players here make verbal attacks about the US. Facts are, I am willing to go to war
for my country and I am willing to die. I believe in protecting the innocent and I might be wrong,
but I don't deem Terrorist as the innocents here...

Re(119): um something else (Rowan, Oct 10)                  (US)

The US is dropping humanitarian packets to 'fix' what they have done..
Opps! We accidentally bombed/hurt you.. here is a packet/band-aid to make it all better.

Re(124): My view on this (Lancelot, Oct 10)                 (Slovak)

Actually more people support Taliban, not Northern Aliance.
Lance.

Re(123): my view (Keli, Oct 10)                    (US)

Thanks, Cruncher. I needed to hear that. I will buy you a beer or 10 when I get to Sk in the spring.

northern alliance (Blim, Oct 11)                   (US)

well its no wonder more people support the taliban than the northern alliance, considering when
the alliance was in power they committed mass murders and rapes against their own people, but
the fact is the northern alliance, as far as i understand, is not what is to be put into power but the
exiled king (some king) of afghanistan will be.
also i think that dropping much needed supplies into the country is also a good idea considering
we are not dropping them into the armies we are dropping them to civilians who we are NOT
bombing, thought as far as i know some have been hurt, it is a lot less than could've been had we
not taken precautions to only strike military targets, when you are under oppression and famine
rowan you tell me you would not accept food and would not be grateful for it


Re(126): um something else (Dominic, Oct 12)

Actually I think the US is dropping food package as propaganda, not to right any wrongs. Of
course, I could be wrong here.
Dominic


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Re(134): um something else (Supaknight, Oct 12)                      (US)

That's an example of someone looking for bad things to say about America.
-Supaknight

Re(135): um something else (Nuriko, Oct 12)

It sure is looking for bad things to say about the US. The United Nations, of which your country
including the US are members, take care of dropping food help.

Re(134): um something else (Thaylok, Oct 12)                (US)

Agreed with the note after this one..... some folks look for reasons to dis the us....
that is all i was saying... and.. yes.. even the people of England dislike the US... now.. if you ever
care to listen to more detail I will be available.. but only to those who will LISTEN.. not just hear.

Moral Question. (Supaknight, Oct 12)               (US)

Imagine you're a journalist in the Middle East. There is a flood, and you see Osama Bin Laden
hanging on for his life. You could save him, or you could take an award-winning photograph of
Bin Laden drowning.
Big Question below:
Which lens and shutter speed would you use?

Re(134): um something else (Rowan, Oct 12)                  (US)

I wrote the note you all are talking about. And I am an American.
Just because I am an American doesn't mean I have to like what the US is doing or has
done.
Rowan.

Re(135): um something else (Dominic, Oct 12)

I resent you saying that I'd be as short sighted as that.
As a matter of fact, I'm not decided yet if the assault on Afghan territory is the right thing to do. I
think it very well could be, if maybe not for the reasons they are done now. Still the Taliban is a
dictatorial regime, the common people of Afghanistan are being repressed and they do harbour
known terrorists, which have taken many human lives even before the 11th of september.
However, I think I should have elaborated on the statement regarding the food droppings a bit
more. I was wrong, assuming that the statement alone would be enough. I can only claim
temporary insanity for that ;)
The reason why I think of the droppings of the food-packages as propaganda - or a publicity stunt
if you like that better - is that the amount of food dropped are relatively small, too small to make
any real impact in a country like Afghanistan. The droppings were initiated by US and UK, not
by the UN, which would allow for droppings with more impact. However, as I analyse it, in that
case the food packages wouldn't have 'USA' written on it (or UK for that matter).
A spokesman for the US armed forces said that there had been droppings of transistor radio's as
well, so that the people of Afghanistan would be able to listen to another version of the news than
it's told by the Taliban-controlled media. Another very fine example of trying to get people on
your hand.
The point of it all, I don think that dropping the food or the radio's is a bad thing. From the point


                                                                                                    45
of view of the people on the ground, it certainly beats dropping explosives. I think it's a very
smart thing to do, and could even mean a more peaceful resolution to this conflict. However, I
don't think these food droppings are made for purely humanitarian reasons, or they could have
been done since the end of the Cold War.
I will be happy to discuss any of this.
Thank you for taking the time to listen to my ranting :)
Dominic

Re(140): um something else (Nuriko, Oct 12)

I fully agree with the fact War is not a good solution.
However, i fail to see an alternative that would actually resolve the problem we have. The
problem that Al qaeda would continue murdering innocent civilians troughout te world.
I'm happy to see people take a critic look at this what is happening, though just ranting stop the
war its bad, without a constructive idea how to do it better i REALLY HATE!
/Nuri prefers not to get a bomb in his head with bin-laden's name.

Re(141): um something else (Yance, Oct 12)                 (US)

dropping food is propoganda, true, dropping radio's is the same thing, i agree. The thing they are
trying is to persuade the people of Afghanistan to oust thier Taliban government, to set one up for
themselves, that would rule the country better. Is this the Northern Alliance i don't know, is this
some other person, or group maybe. Hopefully if the government is overthrown, they will take
better care of the needs and rights of their people, than what the Taliban has seemed to do, again
this is from what we hear, and without being there ourselves, this is open to interpretation from
the people who are there.
Yance the wondering if we are heading to something worse, Monk.

Food vs. Propaganda? (Vian, Oct 12)

about the food and propaganda stuff...
I've read that before bombing started Afghanistan needed about 1000tons of food help everyday...
and about half of it they were getting from UN.
When the bombing started, the food flow from UN almost stopped and US/UK started to bring
food (somewhat less of course) but only to Northern Alliance area.
IMHO - It's LESS then before... so they _should_ increase the amount no offense meant to
US/UK/UN/anyone
Vian

Re(143): Food vs. Propaganda? (Haralitha, Oct 12)                  (US)

The conditions are obviously horrid; they were before the incident of september 11th. If I were in
that same place and food were being dropped (with the condition that I take a few minutes/hours
to listen to someone's arguments and reasons for being there), I would pull up a chair and grab a
fork. The person listening is still able to make decisions based on her/his life experiences. Only
now, they get to make them on a full stomach. You may say that the UN was dropping food and
had to stop when all this started. This may be true, and do you not think that the people knew that
the food was coming from elsewhere? not from our friendly neighborhood Taliban cantina?
Nuriko makes a very valid point. There are those of you who sit and criticize what is being done,
yet no one has any thought of a way to fix things. It is easy to be an armchair political activist



                                                                                                     46
when your words will have no effect anyway.
Hara

propaganda (Blim, Oct 13)                 (US)

ok propaganda is what the food is, well i don't know, but if it is i have no problem with it, there is
nothing wrong IMO with trying to win an oppressed people's support who you will desperatly
need to get around.....but, you say there is no way to fix things
disclaimer :i am an american and this is a THEORY.....maybe if after Desert Storm, we had done
something about Sadam Hussein like we _could have_ (could is the magic word), instead of
leaving troops there we wouldn't have this trouble.....you might say well would've iraq tries
something again
If we had taken out hussein when we had the chance, we wouldn't have to leave our troops in
saudi arabia, and personally i think the reason we did do it is because we wanted to have a
military foothold in either an attempt to regulate oil, make sure we weren't ripped off, and or by
indimiation we hoped to get somewhere, otherwise there would be no reason for troops in the
center of the muslim holy land
blim

Canadians (Danno, Oct 16)                 (Canadian)

Art Eggleton, my Canadian Minister of Defense, has pledged unlimited support to the Americans,
even if they decide to attack other countries. Since i'm old enough to be called up if things go
badly, if anyone here is from a neutral country and would like to offer me asylum, i have a few
skills to offer a new nation.
Danno (likes pacifism, since it doesn't get him killed)

Re(39): Ukyo (Stormtosser, Oct 24)                 (US)

Okay, responding to an old note, but...
<<I don't really care what we do, punishing bin laden will not stop...>>
You're right, punishing him won't stop the attacks, but you're also right that it will slow them
down. I support action against Bin Laden not because I think it will stop the attacks or eliminate
terrorism, but because if we at least hit the organized locations, the disorganized groups are a bit
easier to catch before something bad happens.
As far as why the U.S. might attack Taliban locations, fairly simple... The Taliban won't let us
simply waltz in and grab Bin Laden. If we take out the Taliban communications and keep the
Taliban disorganized, then we have a better chance of waltzing in and grabbing Bin Laden.
As far as the food dropped to the Afgan people, it may be a token currently, but the intent is
probably to win the support of the people in some fashion. If it feeds a few people in the process,
I'm all for that and more. I believe if we truly want to "win" this war, we need to change the
environment that breeds the terrorism. Food, education, and medical help would be at the top of
my wish list for changes.
Stormtosser (The ever soapboxish Paladin)




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