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					22 SEPTEMBER 2009                              PAGE 1 of 190

                     TUESDAY, 22 SEPTEMBER 2009

                                ____



                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

                                ____



The House met at 14:01.



The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment

of silence for prayers or meditation.



ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.



                          NOTICES OF MOTION



Mrs A STEYN: Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next

sitting day of the House I shall move the following motion on behalf

of the DA:



  That this House debates the adverse effect the land restitution

  programme is having on the socioeconomic situation of farm

  labourers across South Africa, and comes up with approaches to

  prevent this situation from deteriorating any further.



Mr G R MORGAN: Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next

sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                              PAGE 2 of 190


 That this House debates the effect that water theft is having on

 South Africa’s water supply, and the steps that the various

 spheres of government should be taking to reduce this theft.



Mr I M OLLIS: Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next

sitting day of the House I shall move the following motion on behalf

of the DA:



  That this House debates the importance of labour-brokering in

  South Africa, its potential to reduce South Africa’s unacceptably

  high unemployment rate and positively contribute to the economy by

  providing flexible labour solutions in a market bereft of ample

  skills, and comes up with possible solutions on how to improve the

  labour-brokering system to become more viable and sustainable in

  the long run, instead of banning the system in its entirety.



ESTABLISHMENT OF AD HOC COMMITTEE TO CONDUCT CO-ORDINATED OVERSIGHT

                        OF SERVICE DELIVERY



                         (Draft Resolution)



The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Speaker, I move:



  That the House –
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                PAGE 3 of 190


  (1) notes that the Oversight and Accountability Model adopted by

        the House on 17 February 2009 envisages a co-ordinated

        approach to oversight and legislative work, and encourages

        the establishment of clustered ad hoc committees for the

        purpose of considering transversal oversight issues;



  (2) further notes that during his speech on Parliament’s Budget

        Vote, the Speaker emphasised that service delivery should be

        a priority during this term;



  (3) recognises that the House Chairperson: Committees is

        responsible for the implementation and co-ordination of the

        Oversight and Accountability Model and must manage

        initiatives derived from the model;



  (4)   resolves to establish an ad hoc committee in terms of Rule

        214 to conduct a co-ordinated oversight of service delivery

        under the theme ―Working together to ensure service delivery

        of quality services to communities‖, the committee to –



        (a)   consist of the 14 members of the Portfolio Committee on

              Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, and

              representatives from the following Portfolio Committees:

              Human Settlements, Energy, Social Development, Health,

              Water and Environmental Affairs, Basic Education,

              Transport, and Rural Development and Land Reform, in
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                  PAGE 4 of 190


              accordance with the following proportions: ANC 17, DA 5,

              Cope 3, IFP 2 and other parties 2;



          (b) conduct co-ordinated visits in rural and urban areas,

              followed by public hearings at Parliament to enquire

              further into the findings, and to use among others the

              preliminary research report on service delivery and

              challenges, compiled by the Parliamentary Research Unit,

              as a source document;



          (c) exercise those powers in Rule 138 that may assist it in

             carrying out its task; and



          (d) table a report containing clear, achievable

             recommendations and a proposed implementation plan by no

             later than 13 November 2009.



Agreed to.



                       INTERNATIONAL DAY OF PEACE



                           (Draft Resolution)



The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Speaker, I move without

notice:
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                              PAGE 5 of 190


   That the House –



   (1) notes that yesterday, Monday, 21 September 2009, humanity

       worldwide observed the day as the International Day of Peace;



   (2) further notes that this day provides an opportunity for

      individuals, organisations and nations to embark on practical

      acts of peace;



   (3) recalls that Peace Day is devoted to commemorate and

      strengthen the ideals of peace both within and among all

      nations and that this day serves as a reminder to all people

      that the United Nations Organisation, with all its

      limitations, is a living instrument in the service of peace,

      and serves all of us, here within the organisation, as a

      constantly pealing bell reminding humanity that our permanent

      commitment, above all interests or differences of any kind, is

      to peace;



   (4) recognises that the new global situation has not resolved the

       contradictions within and among nations between poverty and

       opulence to the extent that ethnic, religious and other

       tensions continue to ravage certain parts of the globe;
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                               PAGE 6 of 190


   (5) believes that peace and friendship amongst all people must be

        secured by upholding equal rights, opportunities and status

        for all; and



   (6) reaffirms its commitment to and belief in the ideals of peace

        and alleviation of tensions and causes of conflict.



Agreed to.



   FIRST CLINICAL TRIAL OF AN HIV/AIDS VACCINE DEVELOPED IN SOUTH

                                  AFRICA



                          (Draft Resolution)



Mrs C DUDLEY: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:



   That the House –



  (1)   notes that the first clinical trial of an HIV/Aids vaccine

        designed and developed in South Africa to determine the

        immune response of HIV subtype C under way in this country

        and in the United States of America, has shown good results

        and will assist scientists in their goal of creating a

        vaccine to combat Aids;
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                PAGE 7 of 190


   (2) acknowledges accolades from the US National Institute of

       Allergy and Infectious Diseases, that South Africa has ―some

       of the finest scientists in the world‖;



   (3) further acknowledges that the vast majority of scientists

       referred to in this are women;



   (4) congratulates sister Professors Anna-Lise and Caroline

       Williamson, leaders of the vaccine development team, and all

       scientists involved in this work at the University of Cape

       Town; and



   (5) also congratulates Professor Glenda Gray and her clinical

       trials team in Johannesburg whose work will positively impact

       on the designing and manufacturing of vaccines against other

       infectious diseases such as new strains of HIV; A/H1N1, or

       swine flu, and H5N1 influenza, or avian flu, which are

       causing much suffering globally at this time.



Agreed to.



     INTERNATIONAL DAY FOR THE PRESERVATION OF THE OZONE LAYER



                         (Draft Resolution)
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                PAGE 8 of 190


The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Speaker, I move without

notice:



   That the House –



  (1)     notes that 16 September has been proclaimed as the

          International Day for the Preservation of the Ozone Layer, by

          the United Nations General Assembly in commemoration of the

          date in 1987 on which the Montreal Protocol on Substances

          that Deplete the Ozone Layer was signed;



  (2)     further notes that this day marks the anniversary of the

          signing of the Montreal Protocol in which the member states

          recognise their obligation to take appropriate measures to

          protect human health and the environment against adverse

          effects resulting or likely to result from human activities

          which modify or are likely to modify the ozone layer;



  (3)     recalls that almost 100 countries will gather in Copenhagen

          for another round of talks on climate change and that

          pressure is mounting for both the developed and developing

          nations to change their behaviour;



  (4)     believes that all of us have a responsibility in terms of

          combating the effect of climate change; and
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                 PAGE 9 of 190


  (5)   calls upon developed and developing countries to set targets

        for the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions as part of our

        responsibility to protect the environment and promote

        sustainable development.



Agreed to.



                         MOTION OF CONDOLENCE



                      (The late Mr F T Masango)



The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Speaker, I move that

the House –



  (1)   notes with a profound sense of loss that, on Friday, 18

        September 2009, the hon Frans Ting-Ting Masango passed away

        after a long battle with illness;



   (2) recognises that hon Masango was a student leader of the 1976

        generation that helped change the political landscape in our

        country forever and who devoted his youth and adult life in

        service to the struggle for liberation;



  (3) further notes that he started his freedom-fighting endeavours

        during the 1976 uprisings when he led as one of the student
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 10 of 190


      leaders and that after the June 16 uprising he was elected

      onto the student representative council;



   (4) recalls that Comrade Masango was amongst a group of activists

       who vociferously campaigned against the hanging of a

       prominent youth freedom fighter, Solomon Kalusha Mahlangu,

       before his hanging in 1979;



   (5) remembers that in 1985 as part of a specialised and

       disciplined MK unit he was sent back to the country by the

       commanders to carry out military operations;



   (6) further remembers that Ting-Ting, together with his comrades,

       later appeared at the Delmas Four Trial, also known as the

       ―silent trial‖, after which they spent 18 months on death

       row;



   (7) recalls that he made headlines in 1991 when he, together with

       fellow freedom fighters, staged a 38-day hunger strike and

       were subsequently granted amnesty and released in June of

       that year;



   (8) believes that he discharged his responsibilities with

       dedication, discipline, diligence and humility and that the

       life of this patriot epitomises heroism and commitment to the

       cause of the poor; and
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 11 of 190


   (9) conveys its condolences to the Masango family and the African

       National Congress.



Mr S J MASANGO: Somlomo, ngithokoze bengilotjhise namalunga

wePalamende woke. [Thank you, Mr Speaker, and greetings to all

Members of Parliament.]



Speaker, I was shocked to learn of the death of one of the freedom

fighters, Frans Ting-Ting Masango, after a very short spell in

Parliament.



The last time I spoke to the late Ting-Ting Masango was on 6 May

2009 during dinner at the hotel. We had a short discussion – I can

remember him asking me if we were the only two Masangos in

Parliament. I said to him that this is a 100% increase because last

time I was the only one! [Laughter.] We ended by saying that we

still have five years to talk.



Akekho-ke phakathi kwethu obekazi ukuthi kuhlekuhle sikhuluma

ngeenyanga ezimbalwa, hhayi iminyaka emihlanu njengokuba

besicabanga. (Translation of isiNdebele paragraph follows.)



[Neither of us knew that we were actually talking about a few months

and not five years, which we initially spoke about.]
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                PAGE 12 of 190


He started as a freedom fighter during the 1976 uprising when he led

from the forefront as one of the student leaders in Pretoria.



After the execution of Solomon Mahlangu, he left the country in 1979

and went into exile in Mozambique. He received military training in

various countries like Angola, East Germany and Russia. He was a

news reader in Angola for Radio Freedom.



In 1985, the late Ting-Ting and his comrade Jabu Masina, Neo Potsane

and Joseph Makhura were sent back to South Africa by their

commanders to carry out military operations. Unfortunately, after a

short time in the country, they were arrested by the apartheid

regime police on 13 September 1986.



They were well known as the Delmas Four. Their trial was also called

―the silent trial‖ because they did not participate in the trial for

the reason that they did not recognise the jurisdiction of the

court.



They were sentenced to death by a judge called Marius de Klerk and

spent 18 months on death row before being released in 1991. He was

given amnesty in 1999 by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission for

political offences committed during apartheid.



The late Ting-Ting Masango joined the SABC in April 1992 as a

bulletin compiler and a news reader for Ikwekwezi FM, formerly known
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 13 of 190


as Radio Ndebele. He resigned from SABC after this year’s general

election after being elected as a Member of Parliament.



Umswa wakwaMrhali nakuyindima uyilimile, kusele kithi bona sithathe

lapho atjhiye khona siragele phambili.



Somlomo ngithanda ukuswaphelisa ngokutjhiriya ihlangano yakhe ye-

ANC, ngithi anikalahlekelwa nodwa. ITshwane namaphethelo nayo

ilahlekelwe. Isitjhaba samaNdebele naso silahlekelwe. ISewula Afrika

nayo ihlahlekelwe. Ngithi dudu emndenini wakwaMasango, akwehlanga

olungehliko. Kumufi ngithi lala ngokuthula Mrhali, Mkungu, Dumako,

Phondwelibomvu, nanyana lingakahlabi lihlabile, silahlela somlilo

esaphuma kwaMabhoko, masunguban’ekosi! Ngiyathokoza. [Iwahlo.]

(Translation of isiNdebele paragraphs follows.)



[The man from the Mrhali clan has played his role and now it is upon

us to take over where he left off and carry on.



Mr Speaker, I would like to convey my condolences to the ANC and say

that you are not the only ones who have suffered a loss. The whole

of Tshwane and its surroundings have suffered a loss. The Ndebele

nation and the whole of South Africa have suffered a loss. I would

like to convey my condolences once more to the Masango family. To

the late member I say rest in peace, Mrhali, Mkungu, Dumako,

Phondwelibomvu, nanyana ngakahlabi lihlabile silahlela somlilo
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 14 of 190


esiphuma kwaMabhoko, masunguban’ ekosi! [Clan Praises.] Thank you.

[Applause.]]



Ms C M P KOTSI: Hon Speaker, we are deeply saddened by the untimely

passing away of the hon Frans Ting-Ting Masango. He was, as we can

all testify, brave where so many others trembled. He was resolute

where many others wavered. He fought in the streets and inside the

committee rooms. He campaigned against the hanging of Solomon

Mahlangu, who was on death row, and later was himself an occupant of

that same death row.



The hon Masango was prepared to pay any price, undergo any privation

and suffer any consequences so that all of us could be free. It is

sad today to observe how the struggle, amongst many of his former

comrades, is not to give all, as he did, but to take all, in

whichever way possible.



Today we are deeply mourning the passing away of this comrade who

actually fought for all of us in this country. The crass

materialism, the brazenness, the careerism and the soullessness of

corruption that we see so prevalent among many of those who once

identified with the struggle, go against all he stood and fought

for.



If this evil is not rooted out now, another oppressive regime will

begin to take root in our recently freed soil. It would be very sad
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 15 of 190


if we were just offering platitudes today, and then tomorrow we

forget what this brave, incomparable man did in his short existence.



He would want to be remembered in a good manner. Would any of us

perhaps remember him in that way? The way he led, is the way we

should lead. The way he saw things, is the way we should see things.



We too should show utmost bravery in what we do, and in particular

we should be brave in opposing those who are bent on reversing our

gains in terms of corruption and values that are actually not

needed. I appeal to all hon members to use this occasion to reflect

deeply, so that when we return to this honourable House again, we

should be honouring the hon Masango.



We commiserate with his family; their loss and our loss is

irreparable. He was a giant amongst us. Today is our chance to say

to his family that it was a privilege for him to serve. I thank you.

[Time expired.]



Mnu B W DHLAMINI: Angithokoze Somlomo, ngibingelele abahlonishwa

bonke eNdlini. I-IFP izithole ngokukhulu ukudumala nobuhlungu

benhliziyo izindaba zokudlula emhlabeni kwelungu elihloniphekile

leSishayamthetho, umfowethu uFrans Ting-Ting Masango.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                               PAGE 16 of 190


Sithi emndenini wakwaMasango, nakozakwabo kuKhongolose, kumalungu

aleNdlu akwehlanga olungehli. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs

follows.)



[Mr B W DHLAMINI: Thank you, Speaker, and greetings to all the hon

members in the House. The IFP received with great sadness the news

of the passing away of a member of our Parliament, our colleague

Frans Ting-Ting Masango.



We send our condolences to the Masango family, his colleagues in the

ANC and the members of this House.]



Ka Sesotho ba re ke ngwetsi ya malapa oohle. [In Sesotho it is said

that death can happen to anyone.]



Sicela niduduzeke. Okusiduduza kakhulu thina njenge-IFP ukuthi

njengoba sezishilo ezinye izikhulumi ngaphambi kwami ukuthi

wayeyisishoshovu somzabalazo olwela inkululeko njengoba

sesikhululekile. Okuhle nokusiduduzayo ukuthi ugcine ehambe

emhlabeni eyilungu lesiShayamthetho sona lesi esashaya imithetho

ayelwa nalo aze angene emajele. Umndeni siyawududuza ngalawo mazwi ,

akwehlanga olungehli, iqhawe leli elihambile.



Maningi amaqhawe aseNingizimu Afrika alwele inkululeko okutholakala

ukuthi umlando wawo awubhalekile kahle. Ngiphosa inselele

ikakhulukazi kuNgqongqoshe Wezobuciko Namasiko ukuthi aqinisekise
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 17 of 190


ukuthi umlando wabantu abalwela inkululeko ubhalwe ngendlela eyiyo

kungabi sengathi owabambalwa. Ngiyathokoza. [Ihlombe.] (Translation

of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)



[Please be comforted. What comforts us most as the IFP is that, just

as the other speakers before me have said, he was a freedom fighter,

who fought for freedom so that we can be free now. What is

comforting is that he passed away as a Member of Parliament, the one

that passed the legislation he fought against and ended up in prison

for. We comfort the family with these words: What has befallen you

is nothing unusual; the one who has passed on is a hero.



We have discovered that there are many South African heroes who

fought for freedom, whose history has been incorrectly captured. I

challenge especially the Minister of Arts and Culture, to have the

history of the freedom fighters rewritten and it should not appear

as if it is being done for a chosen few. Thank you. [Applause.]]



Mr N M KGANYAGO: Mr Speaker and hon members, on behalf of the UDM, I

would like to extend our condolences to the family and colleagues of

the late hon Frans Ting-Ting Masango. He played a leading role in

the 1976 student protest and was most famous for being one of the

four men who were sentenced to death in the notorious Delmas Trial.



In the year 1991, he and his three comrades were released. After a

life spent in service to his people, the hon Masango was recently
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 18 of 190


elected to Parliament, a democratic institution which, many would

argue, exists because of the efforts of people like him. We are

bidding farewell to him and hope that his family will find

consolation in the words spoken here today. May his soul rest in

peace!



Robala ka khutšo, monna wa banna; senatla sa dinatla. [Rest in

peace, man of men; hero of heroes.]



Mrs C DUDLEY: Hon Speaker, the ACDP is saddened by the passing of

hon Masango, who was one of the Delmas Four trialists. The ACDP

recognises hon Masango’s contribution to the liberation of this

country. We note the fondness and pride with which hon Masango’s

colleagues referred to him, and convey our deepest sympathy to

family and friends at this time. We pray that they will experience

the peace and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ. [Applause.]



Ms A DLODLO: Hon Speaker, we went to Vienna one day in 1982. Vienna

was a transit camp outside Luanda, where we slept over for a day or

maybe more before we were trucked off to our training camps in

Angola. I distinctly remember that it was on a Thursday, because all

cadres converged at the swimming pool for what we used to call the

jazz hour, to listen to the sounds of ―Ayeza amalori, siyohamba

noTambo‖ [The trucks are coming, we are going to go with Tambo], to

―Siyobashiya thina abazali bethu‖ [We are leaving our parents
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 19 of 190


behind.] – revolutionary songs that spoke to the selfless heroism of

the youth of the 70s and 80s.



Bells, as he was known, was not at the jazz hour, as I would later

learn and understand, where we were listening to morale-boosting

songs, to solemn pieces, depicting our resolve, resilience and love

for fellow South Africans. In the morning, during parade, there was

this comrade, distinct with his lazy eye, reading news and leading

discussions on the news of the world events and what was happening

back home.



Bells, Ting-Ting Masango’s combat name, was not at the jazz hour

because he was compiling a news bulletin for the camp for the

following morning. He spent a lot of his time radio-hopping the

whole day between Voice of America, Radio Deutsche Welle, Radio

South Africa, BBC World News, Radio Freedom and many other radio

stations, to ensure that he delivered an informative bulletin every

morning that would lead quality input on the form of analysis,

debate and discussions.



I only discovered how strenuous his job was when I assumed the same

position in 1985, when I was doing the news and youth feature

programme for Radio Freedom, broadcasting from Radio Nacional de

Angola. Short-lived as my stint was, it was hectic.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                               PAGE 20 of 190


Bells carried out his task with revolutionary zeal. He was a

commissar of note. With no newspapers, television or radios, Bells

brought the world to us every morning, having worked silently in his

tent every day. He never complained.



He was the same Bells, Monday through to Sunday. He never delivered

an inferior product. He would point you out in your section to share

with the camp what you had used from a particular item of news he

had just read to us. You had to be attentive and apply quick

analysis as he would point you out randomly.



There are comrades you just never forget, and the late hon member

Ting-Ting Masango was one of them. He was forever humble, exemplary

and intelligent. He was a product of the bushes of Angola, the

training facilities of the generous internationalists of the former

Eastern Bloc countries and the dusty streets of Mamelodi.



I stand here in this House to pay tribute to a revolutionary. I

remind you never to forget when he was admitted hospital, a fellow

fighter who was ready to give up his life, so that you, I and

generations to come could be free; a fighter who was a constant

inspiration to the other trialists among the Delmas Four; and a

child of Africa who refused to be reduced to being a criminal, but

fought to be recognised as a prisoner of war.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 21 of 190


In the statement of January 8, 1982, President O R Tambo gave a

directive to the commanders and commissars of the people’s army,

Umkhonto weSizwe, to attack, advance and give the enemy no quarter.

Bells did just that. He advanced from all flanks, attacked in a

frontal fashion and refused to be cowed by the military and judicial

might of the apartheid regime. He literally gave the enemy no

quarter.



He walked in the footsteps of Mary Mini, Comrade Caroline, Solomon

Mahlangu, Jerry Mosolodi, Bobby Tsotsobe, the G5, Butterfly Unit,

Special Ops and many other heroic individuals and units of Umkhonto

weSizwe. He delivered telling blows on the enemy until his arrest in

1986. When faced with the situation where he could have succumbed to

the gruesome torture that was visited on him, he refused to expose a

fellow unit member when he was brought to retrieve a pistol at a

hideout in Mamelodi.



I followed part of what was going on while doing training in Moscow.

They would later be dubbed the Delmas Four. Their conduct was

inspiring. What he wanted at that point was news of a daring

operation to spring them from the jaws of a beastly system.



If you have not grasped how special this patriot was, allow me to

illustrate more to you by reading an excerpt from Peter Harris's In

a Different Time. That was a story he told of the Delmas Four

trialists. These are Ting-Ting’s words:
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 22 of 190


 I know there is still a lot of work to be done, but we want you to

 be aware of our thinking. We want to ask a question: What is the

 consequence of us not giving evidence? We ask this because we have

 a problem in that we are not prepared to take the stand and deny

 that we have done the things we have done. I say this because the

 acts described in the charge sheet were committed by us as

 soldiers of Umkhonto weSizwe, and we will not distance ourselves

 from what we have done.



Ting-Ting continued:



 We have had long and hard discussions about all the options you

 have presented to us. We have taken each one, worked it through

 and in each case, we have rejected the possibility of using this

 type of defence. We cannot plead guilty. Firstly, because we will

 not allow them to place us on trial according to their rules for

 fighting to liberate this country, they have no right to do that;

 and secondly, we did the acts alleged, mostly on the instructions

 of the ANC and we will not back away from that.



He continued:



 At the same time, we could not plead guilty, although we are in

 fact guilty. Our acts cannot be seen in purely criminal terms,

 just as those who killed the enemy in the fight against fascism in

 the Second World War. The acts we committed were carried out
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 23 of 190


 against an enemy that made us victims in our own country and has

 taken any rights that we had away from us - our rights to land, to

 move freely, to work in a free manner, to be educated, and a range

 of others.



 This government is murdering our youth and has our leadership in

 prison. The people we killed were at the forefront of the

 apartheid regime’s attack on black people, and they deserved what

 happened to them. While we have killed, and each of us has to deal

 with that inside ourselves, we are not murderers, and are not

 normal criminals. Do you follow me? This is a war in which they

 hold most of the cards and we cannot simply play their game when

 we have no part in forming the rules.



Ting-Ting said:



 Look, let’s be honest here, we know that probably we cannot avoid

 the death sentence; we have to face the fact. We need to conduct

 our trial and go our way in a manner which does not compromise our

 beliefs and the reputation of the ANC. This is why we like the last

 option that you presented to us. It may be radical and not the norm

 in ANC trials, but it is the one we would like to follow. By doing

 so, we get the same conclusion as the other defence options, but in

 a way of our choosing and which also highlights what we are doing

 and the nature of the conflict we are involved in.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 24 of 190


This was a tribute to a brilliant patriot and freedom fighter; a

soldier of our former people’s army, uMkhonto weSizwe, a true

revolutionary and a son of the soil. Comrade Bells, hon Frans Ting-

Ting Masango, may your revolutionary songs rest in infinite peace.

Lala ngoxolo sotsha lomkhonto. [Rest in peace, MK soldier].



Debate concluded.



Motion agreed to, members standing.



                    RELEASE OF CRIME STATISTICS



                            (Statement)



The MINISTER OF POLICE: Speaker, Deputy Speaker, members of the

House, fellow South Africans, the government of the Republic remains

firmly committed to the realisation of the goal of a better life for

all. This includes the improvement of the quality of life of all the

people of our country in a manner that will ensure enhanced levels

of safety and security.



To a large measure, crime in our country has a uniquely random and

violent character. A greater proportion of murders, rapes and other

crimes take place among acquaintances, particularly in poor

communities where living conditions do not allow for decent family

and social life.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 25 of 190


In addition, cross-border criminal networks are involved in a

variety of crimes including vehicle hijacking, drug trafficking and

human trafficking.



All these factors speak to the continued relevance of a multipronged

approach in the fight against crime, combining aspects of crime

prevention, crime combating, the improvement of socioeconomic

conditions, the strengthening of the spirit of ubuntu and human

solidarity among citizens.



Government releases these statistics once a year to provide the

public with an indication of the crime situation in the country.

More importantly, crime statistics are used daily as a management

tool to guide operational plans for the SA Police Service.



The statistics before the House deal with the period 1 April 2008 to

31 March 2009. As government, we need to reiterate that the release

of statistics is not merely to quantify crime or to create a debate

in our society. We believe that this is a call to action for

government, business, NGOs and communities at large.



The various breakdowns of crime trends over the past fiscal year

reveal that there are areas where we are making progress. At the

same time, there are other areas where we are still lagging behind.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 26 of 190


Nevertheless, the ANC government remains unmoved in its commitment

to securing a better life for all, and the fight against crime is an

integral part of ensuring this better life.



Contact crime currently accounts for 32,7% of all crimes. It is this

form of crime with which violence is generally associated. We are

therefore encouraged by the decrease in five of the seven contact

crime types which occurred during the period 2008-09.



Conversely, there are certain types of crime that have increased

during the same period. These increases serve to dampen some of our

enthusiasm regarding the overall decrease in contact crimes.



In four key areas crime has increased. These areas are: robbery with

aggravated circumstances, sexual offences, stock theft and

commercial crime.



In assessing aggravated robberies, there are three areas which

account for the increase. These are business robberies, house

robberies and hijackings.



Of the three areas mentioned, the highest increase was recorded in

the area of business robberies. When we analyse these robbery

statistics, we find that, in the formal business sector, robberies

either declined or, where they did increase, the increase was

generally only between 3% and 4%. The area where the biggest
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 27 of 190


increase occurred was in the small and informal business area. This

area would include small general dealers and spaza shops.



Over the past few months we have been engaging the business

community to assess how we can better work together to reduce these

robberies. Arising from these meetings, a number of key areas have

been identified that could assist us in dealing more effectively

with this form of crime.



The first relates to the type of business being targeted and the

fact that almost 70% of all business robberies in fact occur at

small and informal businesses.



It is important to recognise that the police need to do more to

assist and protect these small businesses. However, we are aware

that certain factors make these businesses particularly vulnerable

to such robberies.



Issues like the availability of cash – which is often linked to the

difficulty these businesses face when it comes to accessing banking

services – and the unavailability of resources to implement crime

prevention measures, contribute to making these businesses

vulnerable. As government and Parliament we need to do more to

assist these businesses as they are an important source of job

creation and represent the entrepreneurial spirit of our nation.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                               PAGE 28 of 190


Over the next few months we will be engaging both large and smaller

businesses in an attempt to see how we can support each other to

reduce robberies at small business premises. Already, joint SAPS-

business initiatives are being piloted in Johannesburg Central and

Tembisa, and these focus specifically on robberies at small

businesses.



To address business robberies more generally, we are working towards

consolidating our partnership with business. A crucial activity in

this alignment process is greater information-sharing. We are

confident that, as we move forward with this partnership which

focuses on a government-directed and government -led strategy

supported by business, we will be able to assist in making South

Africa a safer place in which to do business.



Cash-in-transit robberies have declined by 2,3%. This, we agree, is

not much of a decrease. To address this, the department has, over

the last two months, focused considerable attention on the area of

cash-in-transit robberies. We have started consulting with

businesspeople regarding improvement of standards within the

industry. The SAPS has also had a number of successes in the arrest

and foiling of such robberies. There is no doubt that the improved

standards coupled with the proactive measures taken by the SAPS have

dealt a serious blow to cash-in-transit heist criminals. We believe

that the increase experienced since the end of the fiscal year is

likely to start declining.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                              PAGE 29 of 190


We are also concerned about the increase in house robberies which,

during the last financial year, increased by 27%. It is one of the

crimes that is the most intrusive and which personalises the crime

experience. We simply cannot tolerate a situation where people do

not feel safe in their homes. House robberies affect communities

from all walks of life and are not restricted to wealthy areas.



Again, we recognise that the SAPS needs to do more to address this

form of crime. To this effect, under the leadership of the National

Commissioner of Police, an audit has started which looks in earnest

at how we deploy our resources. This includes human and material

resources as well as the timing of our deployment.



Equally, we realise that we need greater engagement with affected

communities. Communities must ensure that those who represent them

on the community police forums are equal partners with the police in

establishing the programme of action to address their needs and to

monitor the implementation thereof. This engagement assists us in

refining our approach to deal with house robberies.



We have recently piloted an initiative in Honeydew involving the

SAPS and private security companies active in the area. This

initiative is aimed at reducing the risks associated with house

robberies. We are evaluating the lessons and successes. Based on

this evaluation and if the experience is worth rolling out, we will

develop a national approach to these crimes.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 30 of 190


The final form of aggravated robbery that has increased

significantly is that of hijacking. This statistic includes both

truck and car hijacking, with truck hijacking increasing by 15% and

car hijacking by 5%.



In tackling the illicit trade in vehicles we need to look at both

the local and regional markets. The Second-Hand Goods Act – which

will be fully implemented in January 2010 - will go some way in

curtailing the local market for illicit vehicles. We are also going

to make greater use of technology to assist us in tracking and

identifying such vehicles. Technology such as automated number plate

recognition has already been piloted within the SAPS.



In dealing with the illicit regional trade in vehicles we are

further enhancing our co-operation with other regional police

agencies to strengthen the implementation of regional protocols and

agreements. We anticipate that, with the election of our national

commissioner as the head of the Southern African Regional Police

Chiefs Co-operation Organisation, and the subsequent election of

South Africa to chair the SARPCCO Council of Ministers, we will be

able to use our positions to advance our tactics regarding cross-

border crime.



Over the last year we have implemented a number of policing

strategies to address house, business and vehicle robberies. Some of

these strategies have yielded considerable success. One such is the
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 31 of 190


introduction, in some provinces, of the war room concept. Through

this concept, suspects involved in violent organised crime have been

tracked, linked to crimes and arrested.



Going forward, we are now looking to the newly formed Directorate of

Priority Crime Investigation to consolidate these efforts. The DPCI

is still relatively new, but we are already witnessing successes.

The arrest of a number of cash-in-transit robbers, together with the

recovery of firearms used in these crimes are examples of some of

these successes.



Equally, the DPCI played an integral part in the successful drug

seizure here in Durban and in the United Kingdom when they arrested

a drug syndicate in Durban and seized drugs worth R500 million.



We are heartened by the slight decline in crimes against women and

children. Nevertheless, we are still not entirely satisfied.

Violence against women and children is still prevalent in our

society. This phenomenon militates against our national effort to

create a caring and humane society, underpinned by values of human

solidarity, justice, peace and development.



The closure of special units that have focused on some of these

crimes against women and children has led to significant debate. We

have listened to these debates on the reintroduction of these

specialised units, in particular the child protection and sexual
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 32 of 190


offences units. The SAPS are now implementing the reintroduction of

these particular units to improve their capacity.



The increase of 2,7% in stock theft also poses a serious challenge.

This form of crime negatively impacts on the lives of people living

in rural communities and requires our particular attention. Our

history is characterised, among others things, by deliberate neglect

of rural areas. The birth of democracy saw a shift in approach.

Government has now placed the issue of rural development high on the

agenda. Once again, the SAPS have begun the process of locating this

as a key focal area. Stock theft is another of the areas where we

are going to enhance the capacities of our units.



We have started this overview by focusing on the negatives because

it is important that we admit our challenges and seek to find

concrete means of addressing them. However, we also need to look at

some of our successes because these can assist us to identify what

has worked and help us to adapt some of our approaches to the

challenges we face.



There are four key areas where, we are happy to say, we have seen

decreases over the past year.



These areas include, firstly, murder and attempted murder. Both

these forms of crime have been steadily declining over the last

couple of years. We are pleased to say that they have continued to
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                PAGE 33 of 190


decline over the last fiscal year. During this period murder

declined by 3,4% and attempted murder by 4,3%.



Assault, both common and with grievous bodily harm, has also

declined over the last year. Common assault declined by 4,3% and

assault with GBH by 4,7%. As with murder, we are encouraged to see

that this decline is consistent with previous years.



The dramatic decline in bank robberies is extremely encouraging.

During the last financial year the number of bank robberies declined

by 29,2%. Some of the key factors contributing to our success in

this area include the partnership developed between business and

government, resulting in increased arrests of perpetrators; strict

bail for offenders; and measures introduced by the banks themselves.



What is equally encouraging is that ATM attacks – which are not

listed as a specific category in our crime statistics – also

declined by 10%. The picture between January and September of this

year would seem to indicate that this 10% decline has now risen to a

75% decrease. Once again, this decrease can be attributed to

improved police responses and approaches as well as enhanced co—

operation with the banking sector.



One of the largest categories of aggravated robberies is that of

street robberies. The decline in both street robberies and common

robberies is undoubtedly a positive trend. During this period,
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 34 of 190


street robberies declined by 7,4% and common robberies by 8,9%.

Despite this decline, the number of street robberies still remains

unacceptably high and we need to ensure that we do not become

complacent. We must ensure that we continue to give attention to

this form of crime.



In looking forward, there are a number of key areas of focus for the

SAPS which we believe will contribute to reducing crime levels in

the country.



Some of these measures include a more concerted focus on the role

that intelligence can play in supporting our approach to crime. We

have recognised that intelligence should act as a nerve centre and

has a crucial role to play in all aspects of policing.



We are currently revitalising our intelligence component. Part of

this revitalisation includes ensuring the integration of

intelligence into all aspects of policing, and this will be anchored

by the DPCI.



We have been working with the Ministry of Justice and Constitutional

Development on amendments to Section 49 of the Criminal Procedure

Act. We are at the stage of finalising these amendments, which will

go before Parliament during the fourth session of this year.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 35 of 190


These changes are being made in order to strengthen the hand of the

police in dealing with violent criminals. It is important to

mention, at this point, that trigger-happy members of the SAPS must

not think that this is a licence to kill. It is a measure aimed

specifically at dealing with serious violent crime and dangerous

criminals.



Alongside these changes, we have strengthened the Independent

Complaints Directorate. We see this strengthening of the ICD as an

important measure to ensure that changes to Section 49 are not

abused.



Government has focused attention on the revamping of the criminal

justice system. The basis for this is to ensure a far better

integration of the different departmental role players in the

criminal justice environment but also to start addressing the root

causes of crime.



It is apparent to all of us that the police alone cannot win the

fight against crime. Criminals do not live in isolation from

communities. Therefore we need to deepen our partnership with

communities. The Ministry has established a dedicated unit to focus

on deepening the interaction with communities, civil society,

business, faith-based organisations and the different spheres of

government. [Time expired.]
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 36 of 190


Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Speaker, there is something that the ANC has

missed in its 15 years of treating crime statistics as something to

be held hostage until the last possible moment and then released

with great fanfare after its spin doctors have worked overtime for a

month or so beforehand. And you’ve certainly done that this year.



Some 15 months after we last had a look at the crime statistics, and

after you reneged on your predecessor’s assurance that statistics

would be released twice a year, there has been a massive charm

offensive by the Ministry. Op-eds, TV-covered busts and reports were

given of what a marvellous job you’ve been doing shooting and

killing anyone you’ve determined is a criminal.



What you’ve missed is the fact that every murder, rape, beating, act

of torture, robbery or fraud, every one of the thousands upon

thousands of crimes coldly detailed in this annual report, that is 5

753 serious crimes daily, represents the damage - frequently

irreparable - done to another South African citizen.



These are not your statistics, Minister, nor are they the private

property of the ANC to be kept from us before an election for fear

that the sheer volume of them may cost you votes. These are the

statistics of the citizens of South Africa, the statistics that they

should be able to access freely at their local SAPS station, so that

their tiny neighbourhood watches stay on top of an always fluid
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 37 of 190


situation, and are aware when their neighbourhood is targeted by

criminals.



This morning our Chairperson had the unmitigated gall to exclude the

very people who report on what we do here in Parliament from

witnessing oversight in action. Madam Chair, you broke every rule in

the book by ordering this morning’s meeting to be held in camera.

While you were no doubt merely acting as the obedient ANC cadre, I

will ask that the Speaker himself run an investigation into your

actions.



Minister, the statistics are dismal and indeed might well have had

the ANC losing more than the 4% they did if released before the

election.



Business robberies are up by 41,2% and commercial crime is up by

16%. It is little wonder that the latest World Economic Forum’s

global competitiveness report ranked South Africa as the worst place

in which to do business because of crime. House robberies are up by

27,3%. Truck hijackings are up by 15,4% and car hijackings are up by

5%. We have also seen a significant rise in sexual offences. It is

up by 10%.



That is, of course, of deep concern to us and highlights just how

devastating the ANC’s decision to disband the family violence,

sexual offences and child protection units was. That decision was
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 38 of 190


taken for political purposes and has come at a high cost to ordinary

South Africans.



The DA is not impressed by your antics and manipulation of

Parliament today. We are also not impressed by those statistics

which by many accounts do not, in fact, reflect the true situation

in South Africa at all. Our police have been hiding away and even

burning dockets to ensure they receive a ministerial pat on the

head.



Even when they are caught red-handed by the Independent Complaints

Directorate investigators, as was the case at Mountain Rise in

KwaZulu-Natal, the SAPS doesn’t expel them and arrest them. No, they

tell the ICD to go to hell. My attempts to introduce private

member’s legislation to give the ICD teeth has been cancelled again

today for the second, or the third time, I think. There’s no will at

all to improve the situation.



The Auditor-General knows this is a problem that you won’t clean up

yourself. So in future, at my request, all crime statistics will be

audited. Of course no one will be able to pick up the unrecorded,

burned case files, but at least it’s a start to cleaning up a

service which has so many members dirtying the reputations of the

majority, who wouldn’t dream of committing such a crime.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                              PAGE 39 of 190


To the families of the 51 people who will be murdered in South

Africa today, there are some of us who tell it as it is, and not,

obviously, as the ANC would have us believe.



With the 2010 Soccer World Cup around the corner, the usual rhetoric

and empty promises will not cut it. We need more police and better

training. We need to deal with the backlog of 20 000 forensic

laboratory samples. We need the reconstitution of specialised units,

and an end to cadre deployment within our police service. Only by

dealing with the real problems, can we bring down the crime rate in

the future. Thank you. [Applause.]



Mr M E GEORGE: Hon Chairperson, Ministers, Deputy Ministers and

Members of Parliament, today the Minister released crime statistics

to Members of Parliament. This is one event that generates a lot of

responses and comments from all quarters. The truth of the matter is

that crime statistics are statistics. It means crime has been

committed.



The desire and wish of all of us is to see the levels of crime going

down in our beloved country. There are positive aspects in the

statistics, where attempted murder and murder have decreased. We

must commend the police for this.



The truth of the matter is that the levels of crime in our country

are unacceptably high. I was very happy when I heard the Minister
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 40 of 190


say this morning that even if it is 4%, it is crime and the police

must attend to it.



Cope welcomes the release of the crime statistics and commits itself

to supporting any endeavour to bring the levels of crime down in our

country.



We are concerned about the increasing commercial crime as these are

the resources that should be shared with everybody, especially the

poor. I thank you.



Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson, on behalf of the IFP, I honour the men

and women of the SAPS who risk their lives and endure endless

obstacles in the protection of their fellow South Africans. As we

consider the latest crime statistics, let us not lose sight of the

people behind the numbers.



The increase in crime against our most vulnerable segments of

society is deplorable. Owners of SMMEs and informal businesses do

not have the resources to install expensive CCTV cameras or hire

extra security guards. We must have more visible policing,

especially in communities, so that people can feel safe in their own

homes and safe when they conduct business. This will curb crime even

against foreigners, who are particularly targeted.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 41 of 190


We also call for better intelligence to prevent crime. In the case

of stock thefts, increased military intelligence must be coupled

with the involvement of the army. People living in rural areas

depend on livestock for survival and do not have the means to fight

back, particularly when stock is moved across our borders.



The poor and the vulnerable need a strong champion. That is what

crime statistics are telling us today. In the end, every statistic

in the document before us reflects a deeply affected life in a

deeply affected society.



South Africans are being driven further and further apart. They are

even afraid to look each other in the eye, because every headline

screams crime and every family has a story of tragedy and injustice.

[Time expired.]



Mr J J MCGLUWA: Hon Chairperson, the ID has mixed feelings about the

release of this year’s crime statistics because of the allegations

of police under-reporting at a number of stations across the

country.



Crime statistics are important for planning and budgeting, but it is

more important that our people feel safe in their homes, schools,

playgrounds and communities. The ID welcomes the 3,4% decrease in

murder and the overall decrease in five of the seven contact crime
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                               PAGE 42 of 190


categories measured, but we are still seeing a frightening increase

in other forms of violent crime.



The increase in sexual offences is most worrying and shows we have a

lot to do to create a society where our women and children feel

safe.



Concerning the increase in crime in the small business sector, we

need to promote entrepreneurship to grow and transform our economy.



The refusal to release statistics on a regular basis fuels public

speculation. It results in a negative perception about crime in our

country. Until we deal convincingly with the massive inequalities

and the crisis within the social fabric of our society, crime will

remain a huge problem in our country. I thank you. [Applause.]



Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, die VF Plus salueer daardie

manne en vroue in uniform wat selfs bereid is om hulle lewens op te

offer om vir my, u en die publiek te beskerm.



As ons kyk na die misdaadstatistiek, is die rooftogte wat by

woonhuise uitgevoer word, uiters kommerwekkend vir die VF Plus, want

daar was ’n toename van 27,3%. Dit is een van daardie aspekte wat

die afgelope drie jaar elke jaar toegeneem het en as jy die tydperk

oor die drie jaar vat, was daar ’n toename van 54,2%.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 43 of 190


As ons ook kyk na motorkapings wat ’n toename van 5% toon, sien ons

dit het ook oor die afgelope drie jaar ’n toename van 16,3% getoon.

Die VF Plus sê daar waar die publiek veronderstel is om veilig te

wees - by hul huise, waar hulle vrede moet hê of waar hulle op pad

na of terug van hulle werk is - word hulle lewens bedreig. ’n

Rooftog is niks anders as om iemand se lewe te bedreig nie. Dit maak

Suid-Afrika nog steeds onveilig wat misdaad betref.



Daar is ’n afname in terme van moord en poging tot moord, maar die

gemiddelde syfer per 100 000 is nog steeds 37,3. Dit is steeds agt

keer meer as die wêreldgemiddeld en ons sal moet kyk om dit korrek

aan te spreek. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)



[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, the FF Plus salutes those men and

women in uniform who are even prepared to sacrifice their lives in

order to protect me, you and the public.



Looking at the crime statistics, the robberies that are carried out

at residential homes are extremely alarming to the FF Plus, because

there has been an increase of 27,3%. This is one of those aspects

which have seen an annual increase for the past three years,

cumulating in an increase of 54,2% over this three-year period.



Looking at car hijackings as well, which reflect an increase of 5%,

we have also noticed that over the past three years there was an

increase of 16,3%. The FF Plus is saying that where the public is
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 44 of 190


supposed to be safe – in their homes, where they should have peace,

or when they are travelling to and from work – their lives are under

threat. A robbery is nothing less than a threat to take someone’s

life. This is what still renders South Africa unsafe as far as crime

is concerned.



There has been a decline in terms of murder and attempted murder,

but the average rate per 100 000 is still 37,3. This is eight times

more than the world average and we will have to look into addressing

this properly. I thank you.]



Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, while the ACDP welcomes the release

of crime statistics today, we believe they are long overdue. Our

people want to know whether government is successful in their fight

against crime or losing. Withholding this vital information from the

public leads to much speculation and the conclusion that government

is failing in its most fundamental responsibility of protecting its

citizens.



It is reported that countries that struggle with high crime rates,

such as Northern Ireland, publish six statistical reports a year,

and in the US, the New York Police Department releases weekly

statistics. We believe our crime statistics should initially be

released quarterly, then later on a monthly basis.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 45 of 190


The ACDP is unhappy about sexual offences that have increased by 10%

and household robberies that have increased by 27,3%. Many of these

robberies take place while people are at home and they are left

highly traumatised. That is why much effort has to go into reducing

them.



The ACDP commends the police for the areas where they have been

successful. I thank you.



Mr R B BHOOLA: Chairperson, the MF strongly believes that we have to

deal with crime in a broader sense. And it is not only the

responsibility of the Minister dealing with safety and security, but

that of all the relevant Ministers, including the Ministers of

Economic Development, housing, etc. Socioeconomic stability and the

removal of poverty must be given the highest priority.



The MF, indeed, welcomes the commitment and the initiatives of the

department to eradicate crime, but strongly believes that

professional criminals require the strong arm of the law. The MF is

pleased to note the reduction of crime in certain areas and hopes

that we all are responsible for committing ourselves to eradicating

crime, or should I rather say, it is everyone’s responsibility, who

breathes South African air and lives on South African soil, to fight

for a crime-free South Africa. [Applause.]
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 46 of 190


Mrs L S CHIKUNGA: Hon Chairperson, members of the executive, Members

of Parliament, in April this year we went to the electorate to renew

our mandate and to determine democratically what the will of the

people is on who should govern our country and its people.



Every single party represented in this House, through their

manifestos, made a commitment to fight crime. Today poses a

challenge to all of us on how we deal with the reality of the

situation. We are reflecting on what results our efforts have

brought us, but also need to look at what more we can do to ensure

that our country becomes the one we all aspire to, and our nation

becomes the proud and dignified nation it is supposed to be.



I would like to thank the Minister for his frank and open approach

in dealing with the release of the crime statistics. It is

encouraging to see that the Minister understands and acknowledges

the challenges that he and his department are facing, but also that

they have already started to address these challenges decisively.



The fact that the Minister briefed the committee and that we did not

read about the release in the media clearly illustrates Parliament’s

role as partner in the fight against crime. [Applause.]



Once more, let me extend our appreciation, as a portfolio committee,

to the Minister for the manner in which he dealt with these results

by taking the portfolio committee into his confidence before
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 47 of 190


releasing them. All parties, the ANC, IFP, ACDP, Cope and FF Plus,

expressed this view and an understanding of the need for a closed

meeting. [Applause.]



As the ANC, we agree that crime is a challenge for all of us. We

also agree that it affects all of us across racial lines. We are of

the strong view that a partnership in crime fighting is the answer.

We believe that we have the means to fight crime. Themba Khumalo,

the editor-in-chief of Daily Sun, on 7 September 2009 said:



 The time is already here when together we should be fighting back.

 It is the great battle between the forces of good and the forces

 of evil. It is time to pick a side, become a soldier and go to war

 again.



I think this view expressed by Themba Khumalo is correct, and I

think we need more of these messages and actions from many of us to

drive the point home.



The crime statistics released by the Minister of Police today

confirm again that crime in South Africa is violent. Robberies, hi-

jackings and sexual offences confirm the violent nature of crime.

They further reflect the type of society we are or have become.

Crime talks to the moral fibre of our community. It has become easy

for even people who regard themselves as law-abiding to turn to

violence.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 48 of 190


We have seen violence in our universities during student protests

and in communities protesting about service delivery. This proves

that more and more we are becoming a violent nation.



The everyday assaults of farm dwellers by some farmers and sometimes

the killing of farmers is proof of how we have opted to use violence

in our everyday life. The time has come, we have to stop this

violence, first amongst ourselves as forces of good so that we can

easily identify the forces of evil.



The released crime statistics is the systematic measure of various

factors. It reflects the levels and types of crimes that have

occurred in a specific period, in this case, between 1 April 2008

and 31 March 2009. In addition, these crime statistics will serve as

an indicator of crime that is likely to occur and, as such, the

measures to implement.



The increase in business robberies is indeed worrying. It is true

that two thirds of business robberies affected small businesses and,

in our townships, RDP houses, etc. The large amounts of cash that

are kept at these business premises could be an issue. I think,

together with our banks and our businesses, we urgently need to find

a solution to this problem.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 49 of 190


We have been informed that robberies affecting big businesses remain

stable, which we appreciate, but we think more can still be done to

reduce that further.



The increase in house robberies might be an indication of many

issues, including the seriousness in the investigation of these

crimes if there was no murder or rape committed. Criminals study how

we react to their evil deeds. We believe that strengthening police

patrols, community police forums, street committees and rural safety

committees, as well as arrests and convictions of perpetrators might

reduce this crime.



The gradual decline in murder and attempted murder is welcomed. The

fact that in 54% of cases a knife is the object that is used to

commit murder or attempted murder indicates that the victim will be

killed in close proximity to, or possibly by a known person. This is

indeed worrying.



Over the past 15 years this government and this Parliament voted a

huge slice of the available budget to the SAPS. Human and capital

resources have increased significantly. Our success in the fight

against crime did not always match our investment. We would closely

monitor the output of the SAPS so as to ensure that the people

receive the service that they require and deserve. We need to reap

the benefits from our investment.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 50 of 190


Looking at the areas of success as highlighted here today, it is

clear to the ANC that underlying those successes are strong

partnerships and very good intelligence. It therefore becomes

imperative that the department should strengthen its intelligence

capacity at all levels of the service.



Every single police officer must know that the work they do should

be informed by intelligence and that while they are conducting their

daily tasks, information should be treated as probable intelligence

in another case.



The SAPS cannot afford to work in silos. The work of one division

will and should inform the work of another, and police officers

should be aware of all aspects of policing.



We welcome the strengthening of the detective services through the

recruitment and training of detectives. We are also, however, aware

that many of the skills that a detective needs, he or she should

develop over the years while doing the job.



With regard to training, we should also urge the Minister to

seriously review and evaluate current approaches to training, and

training of SAPS officers. Too many reports are received on poor

service from the police and botched investigations that lead to

mistrust.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                PAGE 51 of 190


It is clear that partnerships form a great part in determining the

successes that are achieved in bringing the crime figures down. The

significant drop in ATM robberies is an example. It is to this

extent that we, as Members of Parliament, representing our various

constituencies, have an important and leading role to play.



We should encourage the establishment of strong, active community

police forums, or CPFs and street committees. We should explain the

advantage that comes with the involvement of a community in

determining its safety needs and plans. Our role should not just be

to criticise - that comes easily - our role should be to mobilise

and act.



As much as crime affects all of us, rich or poor, educated or not,

criminals are part of our communities. They are someone’s brother,

sister, father or friend. They live amongst us. If we judge the SAPS

on the crime statistics let us remember that society, which we are

part of, is judged by the nature of our crime.



In conclusion, I want to say that it is easy for a member, by being

too negative, to become a burden to even the party she or he belongs

to. I think hon Kohler-Barnard might be getting there. I thank you.

[Applause.]



Debate concluded.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 52 of 190

        ACHIEVING CLEAN AUDITS OF ALL MUNICIPALITIES BY 2014



                            (Statement)



The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:

Chairperson, I am ready for your call, as a cadre that is always

ready for combat. As a choir conductor, I am standing in front of

you today to give you a report regarding the harmony of the choir

across the length and breadth of this country. [Laughter.]



We have taken a bold and decisive step on the decision to embark on

a campaign called Operation Clean Audit 2014. This campaign is part

of a broader clean-up campaign, which is aimed at ensuring that we

are able to move forward as a country. It stands on four legs. The

first leg is Operation Clean Audit 2014.



The second leg is clean cities, towns, townships and villages. This

campaign is aimed at ensuring that we turn waste into wealth; that

we call waste a raw material and not waste.



The third leg is debt collection, which is aimed at ensuring that

this country will mobilise its people to be good citizens.

Municipalities, as we speak, are owed over R53 billion. Our people

are in the debt traps of loan sharks and that is why we are saying

that our people must be able to manage their debt and that

government is able to pay municipalities.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 53 of 190


The last leg is infrastructure backlogs and local economic

development. Every municipality in South Africa must be able to do

an audit around service delivery backlogs and they must also be able

to quantify these backlogs. That is what we call, overall, a clean-

up campaign standing on four legs.



Operation Clean Audit 2014 will certainly contribute to building a

clean government. This campaign pierces the heart of corruption,

fraud and mismanagement in terms of finances, and at the same time

it is able to free up financial resources for service delivery.



We are counting on you, as an important institution, to represent

our people. We will also ensure that, as we go forward, we report on

the road we have traversed and the programmes ahead.



We launched this campaign on 16 July 2009 in Boksburg, Ekurhuleni

Metro, in the Gauteng province. Among the people who attended this

campaign were members of this august House, members of the NCOP,

provincial legislatures, premiers, MECs, HoDs, individuals from the

private sector, government officials, some Cabinet colleagues,

auditors-general, accountants-general, etc.



The launch was the beginning of the end as far as disclaimers,

adverse opinions, and qualified audits in provinces and

municipalities are concerned. The goal that we have is that by 2011

there should be no disclaimers or audit opinions.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                PAGE 54 of 190


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, may I ask the

Minister a question?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Are you willing to take a

question, Minister?



The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:

Chairperson, I will. At the end of my speech I’ll be ready for you,

Mr Davidson.



By 2014 there should be no municipality or provincial government

department that has a qualified opinion. [Interjections.] That means

we must have a clean audit across the country. [Interjections.] This

pledge that I am talking about today is a pledge that has eluded us

for the past 15 years.



To this effect, we launched this campaign in the North West on 11

September. We will be launching it in Limpopo on 23 September and

also in Gauteng on 15 October. All other provinces must launch this

campaign before the end of November this year.



Let me tell you a story about the Western Cape, colleagues. The

Western Cape, as a province, launched our campaign in secret.

[Interjections.] [Laughter.] The Western Cape stole our idea and

implemented it without acknowledging or recognising its owner.

[Interjections.] What is it called when you take someone else’s idea
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 55 of 190


and make it your own without ensuring that you acknowledge the owner

of that idea? We have a patent right on this campaign and the idea

around it. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Order, hon members!



The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: We

want to tell you that the Western Cape itself says that it launched

Operation Clean Audit 2014. They are stealing our ideas without

acknowledging that they have taken our ideas. [Interjections.] What

is that called?



You are here to judge. In this campaign you can see that it has a

vision, a goal, a purpose and at the same time some milestones. We

are putting ourselves in front of you to say that you must judge us

on the clear objectives that we are setting up in front of you today

as South Africans.



The question that we must ask ourselves, when we talk about this

vision and this goal is: Where are we? Let me analyse the Auditor-

General’s reports of 2006-07 and 2007-08, which read thus in terms

of municipalities. There are 283 municipalities in South Africa. In

2006-07 disclaimers were at 105, which is 36%, and they decreased to

90, which is 31% in the 2007-08 financial year. Adverse audit

opinions decreased from 21, which is 7%, in 2006-07 to 10, which is

3%, in 2007-08; qualified audit opinions decreased from 82, which is
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 56 of 190


29%, in the 2006-07 financial year to 63, which is 22%, in the 2007-

08 financial year; financial unqualified audit opinions with matters

of emphasis increased from 79, which is 27%, to 122, which is 42%,

in the 2007-08 financial year.



Financial unqualified audit opinions with no maters of emphasis –

that means with a clean bill of health – increased from three, which

is 1%, in the 2006-07 financial year to six, which is 2%. That is a

100% increase in 2007-08.



The provincial departments and their entities have shown a steady

increase in terms of the management of their finances. The

statistics are as follows: disclaimers decreased from four, which is

3%, to three, which is 3%, in 2007-08; adverse audit opinions

decreased from three, which is 2%, in 2006-07 to two, which is 1% in

2007-08; qualified audit opinions decreased from 56, which is 47%,

in 2006-07 to 38, which is 32% in 2007-08; financial unqualified

audits increased from 50, which is 42%, to 69, which is 58%;

financial unqualified audit opinions with no matters of emphasis

have increased from six, which is 6%, to seven, which is also 6%.

That is the picture that we have and that is where we are as we

speak. And we have outlined a vision for where we want to be.



The question then is: What is your role as Members of Parliament?

What I am saying here today is that I am throwing down the gauntlet

and that, in your area of responsibility, you must be able to ...
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 57 of 190


Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, on a point of order: The hon Minister has

said that he is now going to tell us what our role as Members of

Parliament is. I wonder if he could just give us those statistics

again, so we will be clear as to what the problem is.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): You will get them in the

Hansard, hon member. Hon Minister, please continue.



The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:

What I am saying, Chairperson, is that, as Members of Parliament, it

is quite important that in our municipalities we ensure that the

structures are in place to ensure that the resources given are used

properly. At the same time we are saying that you must make sure

that in your areas the provinces are able to account for resources.

You can’t come here and be involved in howling without playing a

constructive role in ensuring that the country moves forward as one.

We are calling on you to rise above howling and rather contribute

positively. [Applause.]



No situation is just gloom and doom. There are a number of

provincial departments and municipalities that are doing very well.

There are best practices out there and we have used these

municipalities and provinces that have consistently achieved clean

audits to assist in other areas and share their experiences.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 58 of 190


You cannot have a situation where you have an island of good

practices or best practices, surrounded by a sea of wrongdoing as

you go forward. Therefore, we are saying in this situation that this

will be turned around and we are making this groundbreaking

announcement and saying that we should move forward together.



These municipalities are applicable across all parties, including

the DA municipalities. Even they are having serious problems, if you

care to know about it. Therefore, there are no angels.

[Interjections.] We can give you the statistics. There are no angels

in this case. [Interjections.]



By 28 September we will be part of the Annual Conference of Public

Accounts Committees, Apac, organised by this Parliament, when we

will be making further groundbreaking announcements. Equally, on 7

October, the parliamentary committees will be coming together and we

will be giving a report on the issues surrounding audit opinions,

because we believe they are important.



We will be visiting all provinces with my colleague, the Auditor-

General of the Department of Public Service and Administration from

30 September to 30 October and we will be going to those areas with

accountants-general. We are saying, ―Woza 2014!‖ [Come on, 2014] We

shall win this battle in the interests of our people. We are saying

victory is certain. I thank you.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 59 of 190


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Minister, don’t move!

Remember you said you will take a question from the hon Mr Davidson?



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, I can assure the

Minister that it is a very simple question and I’m sure he does know

the answer, because he had lots of undertakings and targets set.



The question is purely and simply this: What is the sanction that

will be applied if those targets are not met? [Interjections.]



The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:

Chairperson, sanctions against whom? What we will be doing with

people we have committed ourselves to is that we have agreed that

these issues are going to be part of the performance contracts in

terms of the accounting officers at municipal level. Therefore,

people who were supposed to do the work are going to have to ensure

that they do what is required. If they have not performed, they will

not get performance bonuses; and if they get bad audits or opinions

in consecutive years, they will be dealt with. [Interjections.]



In that respect, we are saying that from our side we are committed

to ensuring that the correct things are done. You are supposed to be

joining us in ensuring that we build the country together, because

even here in the municipalities of the DA, we are going to be

cracking the whip if things are not going satisfactorily. Thank you.

[Applause.]
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 60 of 190


Mr W P DOMAN: Chairperson, this is a good initiative by the Minister

and his department, and it is a good thing that he comes to

Parliament to announce it here where we can debate it. However, the

hon Minister was a bit out of tune regarding the Western Cape.



On 20 August he said here in Parliament that 86% of the DA-

controlled municipalities in the Western Cape did not hand in their

books to the Auditor-General, but it only had to be in at the end of

August. I believe, at that stage, 100% of the ANC municipalities

hadn’t handed in their books! [Applause.] I have checked and, as we

stand here today, only two DA-controlled municipalities in the

Western Cape haven’t complied.



I would to like to ask the Minister why this initiative is

necessary. It is actually an acknowledgement that the closed

patronage system of cadre deployment of the ANC is a failure.

[Applause.] It is easy to be ideological and implement a policy

whereby only comrades are employed, but policies are always tested

by reality, and reality will show which will endure and which are

flawed.



The Minister has to come up with this initiative to try and rescue a

desperate situation. He gave us the percentages here; 14% of

municipalities didn’t even submit their books for an audit. Only 33

municipalities were given a clean audit. At any given time more than

12% of chief financial officers’ positions are vacant, some for
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 61 of 190


months, because ANC-controlled municipalities can’t find a comrade

that is remotely suitable for the position and they don’t want to

appoint other suitable candidates - even if they are black - on

suspicion that they support another party like the DA or Cope.

[Applause.]



This initiative is going to fail, Minister, unless the ANC-

controlled municipalities start to appoint people on merit, which

requires that qualifications, experience and proven skills in

financial matters be the determinant in appointments. Since 2006 a

total of 1 283 professionals and experts have been deployed to

municipalities and still the situation is desperate - desperate,

because the ANC does not want to accept that municipal officials

should be independent and appointed on merit only.



Belastingbetalers regoor Suid-Afrika is vuisvoos geslaan deur die

verhogings wat hulle die afgelope jare in hul munisipale rekenings

moes verduur. Die verhoging van die koste van elektrisiteit deur

Eskom is maar een aspek daarvan. Die wanadministrasie; korrupsie,

veral met tenders; vermorsing op luukshede soos burgemeestersmotors

en oorsese reise; swak kredietbeheer; en die oorspandering op gratis

dienste by die meerderheid van munisipaliteite het ons na aan die

punt gebring dat getroue betalers dit net eenvoudig nie meer kan

bybring nie en ook weerstand opbou om hoegenaamd te betaal.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                PAGE 62 of 190


Belastingbetalers verwag waarde vir hul geld. Hulle verwag goeie

basiese dienste, maar hulle verwag ook skoon geouditeurde state as

’n aanduiding dat ’n munisipaliteit verantwoordelik met hulle geld

omgaan. Skoon oudits is een ding wat weer bietjie vertroue in

munisipale bestuur kan inbring, en daarom is die DA voluit vir

hierdie inisiatief wat u loods.



Finansiële wetgewing is in plek, dit is nie die probleem nie. Die

probleem is hoe om daaraan te voldoen. Volgehoue opleiding in

finansiële bestuur op alle vlakke kan nie genoeg beklemtoon word nie

en ’n mens bly ook bekommerd oor die wiskundige vaardighede van

leerders wat skole verlaat en op toetree-vlakke by munisipaliteite

begin werk, want almal speel ’n rol om ’n skoon oudit te lewer.



Die DA wens die Minister en sy departement sukses toe met hierdie

nuwe inisiatief, maar ek wil herhaal dat dit doodgebore is as die

ideologie van kaderontplooiing nie plekmaak vir meriete nie.

Finansiële werklikhede ontbloot politieke speletjies. [Applous.]

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)



[Ratepayers across South Africa are punch-drunk as a result of the

increases which they have had to endure over the past few years with

regard to their municipal accounts. The increase in the cost of

electricity by Eskom is just one aspect thereof. The

maladministration; corruption, especially with regard to tenders;

squandering on luxury items such as cars for mayors and overseas
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                PAGE 63 of 190


trips; poor credit control; and the overspending on free services by

the majority of the municipalities have brought us close to a stage

where faithful payers simply cannot afford it anymore and are also

building up a resistance to paying in any way whatsoever.



Ratepayers expect value for their money. They expect good basic

services, but they also expect clean audit reports as an indication

that a municipality is dealing responsibly with their money. Clean

audits are the one way in which trust in municipal management can

again be gained and, therefore, the DA fully supports this

initiative that you are launching.



Financial legislation is in place, this is not the problem. The

problem is how to comply with it. Continuous training in financial

management at all levels cannot be emphasised enough and one

continues to be concerned about the mathematical skills of learners

who leave school and start working at entry levels at

municipalities, because everyone has a part to play in the delivery

of a clean audit.



The DA wishes the Minister and his department well with this new

initiative, but I want to reiterate that it will be stillborn if the

ideology of cadre deployment does not make room for merit. Financial

realities expose political games. [Applause.]]
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 64 of 190


Mr T BOTHA: Chairperson, following the reality of so many previous

declarations and initiatives to get local government working, any

reasonable observer would view the Minister’s latest statement with

serious scepticism. It is not only too little too late, but just

another attempt to shift the goalposts further down the line to, in

fact, just beyond the 2011 municipal elections.



Once again, the ANC government is trying to hoodwink voters into

believing that all will be right if they just wait for another five

years. Yet, history has now overtaken the ruling party’s transparent

strategic interventions that lead nowhere.



People are not only disillusioned and angry about poor service

delivery, but also about the blatant looting of resources by

deployed cadres, who enrich themselves through exorbitant salaries,

generously supplemented with so-called performance bonuses; often

rewarding incompetence, rather than excellence, not to mention the

epidemic levels of nepotism and associated procurement manipulation.



The Auditor-General’s report on the Municipal Finance Management

Act, MFMA, outcomes for the 2007-08 financial year indicates that

67% of metros and 56% of related municipalities did not comply with

applicable legislation.



Material mistakes in financial reporting were uncovered by the

Auditor-General in 100% of the metros and 75% of related municipal
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 65 of 190


entities, due to errors, omissions and inconsistencies. Such errors

should have been detected by the metros and municipalities, but they

failed to do so, because they failed to implement and maintain due

internal audit processes, as prescribed by law. Thank you very much.

[Time expired.] [Applause.]



Mr N SINGH: Chairperson, unfortunately one minute is not enough time

for me to go into a dream and wake up from this dream that the

Minister has. Notwithstanding that, hon Minister, we want to support

this noble objective of ensuring that there are clean audits by

2014.



However, there are a couple of challenges. The first challenge is

capacity. We have heard about projects before; we have heard – some

in the House would have heard – about Project Consolidate, which was

intended to beef up the capacity of officials at a municipal

government level.



It didn’t work. Many chief financial officers in municipalities

don’t have even the wherewithal to prepare statements that the

Auditor-General can report on, and this is where, Minister, your

department has got to ensure capacity.



Secondly, with reference to the oversight mechanism, municipal

public account committees don’t exist. They are not compulsory; they

are mandatory at national level, they are mandatory at provincial
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 66 of 190


level, but it is still something that municipalities may adopt. We

need to ensure, as a House, that we adopt legislation that makes

municipal public accounts committees compulsory, so that in every

municipality there is an oversight mechanism that can ensure that

the audit reports are looked into and that measures are put in place

that will ensure clean audits. But we support this objective, and we

will be back here in 2011 to hear what you have to say about

progress. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]



Mr J J MCGLUWA: Chairperson, the ID is very concerned about a number

of municipalities that received qualified audit reports and yet are

still ignoring the Auditor-General’s recommendations. Some

municipalities even operate as if there is no Municipal Finance

Management Act.



In order to ensure good and sound governance in municipalities, the

ID’s first solution would be to get rid of fat-cat consultants, many

of whom are only interested in filling their pockets with money,

instead of providing decent service at a reasonable cost.



Voorsitter, ek wil dit beklemtoon. Minister, die OD beveel aan dat u

van alle vetkat-konsultante binne die munisipaliteite ontslae raak.

Hulle mors ons geld, en hul pryse is buitensporig. (Translation of

Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 67 of 190


[Chairperson, I want to emphasise this. Minister, the ID recommends

that you get rid of all the fat-cat consultants in the

municipalities. They waste our money and their costs are

exorbitant.]



The ID further suggests that the Minister should rather employ, or

deploy, internal audit units, which would be present throughout the

financial year, to look out for financial mismanagement and corrupt

activities. Although we support the holistic approach, we believe

that each municipality is unique. They need individual attention to

assist them in obtaining unqualified audits. I thank you.



Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, I want to say that the hon Minister

is worrying me. I am worried that you may think that you are

conducting a choir and that you will find out that you are only

conducting yourself. [Laughter.]



Voorsitter, die VF Plus verwelkom enige inisiatief op plaaslike

regeringsvlak. Ek wil eintlik vir die agb Minister sê dat ek nie

dink dit kan slegter gaan nie. Maar agb Minister ... (Translation of

Afrikaans paragraph follows.)



[Hon Chairperson, the FF Plus welcomes any initiative at local

government level. I actually would like to say to the hon Minister

that I do not think things can get worse. But hon Minister ...]
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                               PAGE 68 of 190


... I want to say that you will have to start with your own

department, and the targets are targets that sound very good, but

about two weeks ago, I asked you a question in this House about a

forensic report and the findings thereof that had been completed in

2007. It is two weeks now, and we haven’t heard anything.



Die probleem is as dit die departement so lank vat om net ’n

antwoord te gee, hoe lank gaan dit ander munisipaliteite neem? Ek

wil vandag, Minister, vir u sê dat indien u u doelwitte wil bereik,

gaan u ongeveer die helfte van u munisipale bestuurders moet

ontslaan en sorg dat u bevoegde munisipale bestuurders kry wat die

werk kan doen, anders leef u in ’n droom. Dankie. [Applous.]

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)



[The problem is that if it takes the department so long to simply

reply, how long will it take other municipalities to do so? Hon

Minister, today I would like to say to you that if you want to

achieve your goals, you will have to dismiss almost half of your

municipal managers and ensure that you appoint competent municipal

managers who can do the job, otherwise you are living in a dream-

world. Thank you. [Applause.]]



Mrs C DUDLEY: Chair and hon Minister, corruption in South Africa is

clearly constraining development of the national economy and

significantly inhibiting good governance, and local government is

not immune. It has been said that corruption kills the development
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 69 of 190


spirit. Nothing is as destructive to society as the rush to quick

and easy money, which makes fools of those who work honestly and

constructively.



In South Africa’s complex political economy, tensions have given

rise to several forms of corruption, including bribery, fraud,

nepotism and systemic corruption. If we are to prevent corruption

and to make it unacceptable, we will require long-term education and

awareness, as well as significant consequences.



It is vital that government accurately identifies the reasons for

the failures within municipalities. Some capacity failures may be a

lack of budget and some a lack of specific skills, but indications

are that, in most cases, it is a lack of leadership. It is obvious

to all that before anything else, government must deal with

political failures; in other words, put the right people in the

right posts. Then maybe Operation Clean Audit 2014 will succeed.

Thank you.



Mr R B BHOOLA: Chairperson, hon Minister, we all want to see clean

cities and towns and, indeed, we want to live in clean cities and

towns. However, I agree fully with your statement that you have to

crack the whip. You have to crack the whip!



If you look at local municipalities, and if you want to enhance and

raise the levels of service delivery, you need to deal with
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 70 of 190


incompetence, lack of skills and people who are just filling the

space.



Hon Minister, the Minority Front welcomes your noble intention and

is hopeful that we will come back to this very same podium and

address the challenges that you have achieved by then. We want to

point out that it is absolutely imperative, and important, that you

put in place a monitoring mechanism to deal with the accounting

officers who are dealing with municipalities’ financial matters and

don’t have the necessary skills and capabilities. Thank you.

[Applause.]



Mr S L TSENOLI: Chairperson, hon Dudley makes a very significant

observation about the complexity of the political economy of our

country. But not only that, she also points out to us, in addressing

the question of clean audits, that we must locate it within the

broader problem that we are seeking to address. In other words, the

absence of clean audits is in fact symptomatic of something bigger.



So, the Auditor-General indicates to us, as an example of good

practice, that one mayor of Cacadu proved very effective in bringing

about clean governance in the district, because he played a critical

oversight role and provided leadership in the area. This he did

after receiving feedback from the Auditor-General and others, and in

the process of managing the administration.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 71 of 190


The mayor told us as a committee, in our interaction with him, that

their chief financial officer, who was critical to this process, was

poached by a municipality with bigger financial muscle, namely the

metro. So, they were confronted with a problem that their staff was

poached, which created a gap with regard to their capabilities.



So, this reflects the fact that the problem of the differently

financed municipalities – the rich vs the poor in the areas that we

are operating in – has an effect on the ability of the poorer

municipalities, largely in rural areas, to attract and retain

effective professionals at a variety of levels, including the area

of running finances, etc. That is the broader picture we must

address.



In other words, the underdevelopment - the skewed nature of

development in our country - is partly to blame for this. We have to

look at the historical reasons.



Secondly, the rural-to-urban migration is an important factor. The

fact that professionals are leaving the poorer municipalities of the

rural areas to move to urban areas and so on, creates this gap.

Thirdly, migration from the public to the private sector is becoming

an important factor in looking at what is happening at these

municipalities. When we speak about the absence of clean audits, we

must look sufficiently into the reasons for the absence of skills

that people are talking about, including of leadership.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 72 of 190


Obviously, this is compounded by the fact that, like in any

institution, each municipality must create an environment in which

it is able to retain and keep the professionals and skilled people

that it does get from time to time. They must make sure that these

professionals stay in the area, and they must deal effectively with

these issues.



There’s no doubt that in the absence of such an environment, such

professionals become vulnerable to poaching not only by richer

municipalities, but also by provincial and national departments.

This denudes the municipalities of the capacity they need to handle

these issues.



The Auditor-General makes an important observation, that there is a

paucity of skills in the country generally, in national and

provincial departments, and more so at a local level. Some of the

ideas that we are debating and discussing regarding a single Public

Service, inducting and training all public servants into systems

that will enable them to migrate across the three spheres, will go

towards addressing this issue in the long term. That is an important

aspect of what we are debating and discussing today.



The Minister is correct, dealing with clean audits requires a

comprehensive overall approach. In other words, we should be able to

manage the issues of debt collection, for example - keeping the

resources you have and using them for service delivery. This is
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 73 of 190


going to make a big difference. In other words, clean audits will

only be effective as a vehicle for improving not only service

delivery, amongst other things, but also general good governance in

those municipalities.



The country must address the problem of capacity not only at

municipal level, but generally. We are dealing with backlogs of

human resource development in this country that have major

implications for our work across the board.



It is as a result of underinvestment not only in the past 15 years,

but also before that, that we do not have sufficient numbers of

professionals across the board. We’ve spoken about the poor quality

of performance, at tertiary level, of the people we need in various

areas of our work. This partly manifests itself in the poor and not-

so-clean audits that emerge from municipalities, so the initiative

is crucial to contributing to a national strategy for developing

human resources at municipal level.



Let me start with you, hon Tozamile Botha. When you were deployed as

a director-general in the Eastern Cape and a comrade from head

office requested you to come and account, you said to the comrade:

Nithe mandiphathe. Ndiphethe. Ndize kuphendula ntoni? [Kwahlekwa.]

Usayikhumbula loo nto, tata? [You said I must manage. I am managing.

What must I account for? [Applause.] Do you still remember that,

sir?]
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 74 of 190


That is what you said, as a deployed cadre. Today you stand here and

you object to us doing that. This is the most crucial part of the

work that we do. Every town and every city where the DA has won an

election, they have removed the people they found there, including

the people they claimed were appropriate for those jobs. This is

especially the case down here, where they assume that women do not

have the appropriate skills.



I don’t know how you refer to ―cadre development‖, but it is

referred to as such in politics everywhere else. The party that runs

the country chooses the people it considers the best, and in the

process of choosing such people there will be mistakes. So, those

will be dealt with.



Naturally, in working towards achieving the results that we desire,

some of the human resource decisions – not only in the public

sector, but also in the private sector – do not go the way we want

them to. The issue is the responsiveness with which we ought to

react when that happens. That is what this strategy does: It

announces an initiative that complements our intention to build a

very strong, national integrity system. This system emphasises to

our institution the necessity to run clean public sector

institutions, including municipalities, so that the citizens can

benefit from that.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 75 of 190


No doubt, I agree with those members who say that we need to be

responsive and to respond in time to issues that are raised. This is

what citizens on the ground want from municipalities, and this

initiative is intended to do that. What’s wrong with dreaming?



The importance of the announcement of the clean audits campaign is

that the announcement falls squarely into our overall job to

continue to learn from the past and, looking ahead, to build the

sort of institutions that we would like to be proud of.



There is no shifting of goals here. What is happening is that we

have to learn from the past and take new steps in the right

direction. In the past, those with experience used to say that when

we get lost, we should retrace our steps so that we can see where we

went wrong.



We agree with the Minister that in carrying out our oversight

responsibilities as Members of Parliament, we must interact with

those who work in these municipalities to ensure that a political

environment is created for the retention and continued attraction of

others to serve on the municipalities to help them carry out their

duties properly. Thank you, very much.



Mr D A KGANARE: Moholwane ke ne ke batla ho tseba hore na o ka nka

potso? [Hon member, I would like to find out whether you will take a

question.]
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 76 of 190


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Will you take a question? You

still have one minute left.



Mr S L TSENOLI: What is the question? Let me take the question.



Mong D A KGANARE: Ke ne ke batla ho tseba ntate hore ditoro tsena

tseo o ntseng o bua ka tsona, o re di tlo fihlelwa neng hobane le

wena o a bua hore ke ditoro? (Translation of Sesotho paragraph

follows.)



[Mr D A KGANARE: Hon member, when are these dreams that you are

referring to going to be realised, as you have indicated that they

are dreams?]



Mr S L TSENOLI: Hon Kganare, you were a member of a very important

trade union, and we believe that change is a process. We haven’t

changed from understanding that. You want us to commit to specific

dates? Change is a process.



Regarding the dates that have been announced by the Minister, you

want me to come up with mine as well? [Laughter.] You mean you, you

don’t understand?



Debate concluded.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 77 of 190

 CONSIDERATION OF RECOMMENDATION OF PERSONS FOR APPOINTMENT TO THE

               SOUTH AFRICAN HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION



Ms M SMUTS: Chairperson, a tribute to the outgoing human rights

commissioners is in order before our new commissioners are voted

into office.



Seven years ago Parliament voted 11 new commissioners into office.

The President, who must sign their appointment and who has no

discretion in the matter, however, appointed only five.



Despite their diminished number, Chairperson Jody Kollapen and

Commissioners Zonke Majodina, Leon Wessels, Karthy Govender and Tom

Manthatha have carved out the kind of place for the Human Rights

Commission that we envisaged, first in 1994, and then in the final

Constitution. They did so well that the Chapter 9 Review recommended

changing the law to prolong their terms of office, pending the

possible proposed creation of an umbrella rights commission.



Now, that amendment has not occurred, but, more seriously, nothing

else has been done to bring their law, passed in 1994 – the very

first statute passed here – in line with the final Constitution.

This neglect, in fact, played a role in the appointment of only five

commissioners seven years ago.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                PAGE 78 of 190


The newly constituted Justice committee intends to correct all of

this, and makes an early start today by recommending six persons to

hon members, which brings their number then to seven. Budgets

permitting, we want to appoint more.



This is a good beginning. Moreover, the new commissioners bring some

of the expertise we need. Dr Danny Titus, who holds an LLM and an

LLD from Leiden University, all but wrote the book on policing and

human rights, while Adv Malatji, as Head of Legal Services of the

SAPS in Limpopo, taught policemen not to shoot first and settle

damages claims later.



He is South Africa’s very first black blind advocate and he will

drive the rights of the disabled at the SAHRC, and government can

moreover learn a thing or two from him about job creation.



The DA acknowledges that it has been accommodated in the list

serving before hon members today. We have been accommodated. We

will, nevertheless, abstain in order to indicate our discomfort at

the inclusion of one candidate, in particular.



I do feel that I must place on record the fact that Adv Lawrence

Mushwana, the outgoing Public Protector, repeated the very

sentiments which gave rise to a dispute between the ad hoc Chapter 9

committee and himself a year or so ago. We advised him in the course

of that review that a Chapter 9 body, albeit an organ of state, is
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 79 of 190


not subject to the dictates of co-operative government. It stands to

reason. We cited the Constitutional Court’s judgment – that is, IEC

v Langeberg Municipality – that these institutions must ―manifestly

be seen to be outside government‖.



Imagine my disbelief, then, when Adv Mushwana said in his interview

that he continued to hold the view that the Chapter 9 institutions

could co-operate with government because they were institutions

―within government‖. When I challenged him to get this on record, he

said that they were not part of government, but that we had to ―look

at reality, the President appoints them‖.



The reality is that it is this body, the National Assembly, which

chooses them, that votes them into office, which holds them to

account, while simultaneously assisting and respecting them.



I will assist and I will respect from the moment the President signs

on the dotted line. That is why I put this on the record now - I

have now done it – why we will abstain from this vote. But we will

hold it to account in future. [Applause.]



Ms L H ADAMS: Chairperson, the appointment of commissioners for the

SA Human Rights Commission is a very important moment in the further

development of constitutional rights in South Africa and definitely

deserves the careful attention of the National Assembly.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 80 of 190


Cope supports the candidates as recommended by the Portfolio

Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development. However,

concerns are raised regarding one of the candidates, Adv Loyiso

Mpumlwana. Parliament must ensure the recommendation of individuals

who have the necessary commitment to the protection and advancement

of human rights and constitutionalism in South Africa, as well as

the qualities and track record to demonstrate their suitability for

such a significant position.



Although not specifically questioned about it, the impression

created from Adv Mpumlwana’s CV was that he was first appointed as a

senior legal adviser in the premier’s office in the Eastern Cape and

thereafter as the regional head investigator for the Truth and

Reconciliation Commission.



What the CV did not specify is the fact that he was employed in the

premier’s office at the same time that he was employed by the TRC.

From a statement issued by the TRC, he was found guilty of 8 out of

10 charges brought against him relating to fraudulent

misrepresentation.



Clearly, Adv Mpumlwana does not have the desirable attributes that

South Africa demands from a human rights commissioner or, at the

very least, have the attributes to be regarded as a fit and proper

person with high competence and integrity.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 81 of 190


The integrity and ethical standards of the SA Human Rights

Commission lie at the very heart of the fair and impartial

commission envisaged by the Constitution. With a candidate like

Adv Mpumlwana one can only hope that the SAHRC, like the TRC, will

not be embroiled again in controversy. Thank you.



Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: Chairperson, we are voting to give the

Human Rights Commission a not-so-good membership, which is worse

than it could have been, had the best candidates been chosen. Yet

the IFP is voting in favour if it, because it is much better than

what the ANC wanted it to be and in acknowledgement that substantial

given-and-take between the ANC and the non-ANC components of the

committee has indeed occurred. In this respect, we thank Chairman

Ramathlodi and the hon Holomisa, Jeffery and Ndabandaba for their

leadership.



Our vote in support is also justified on account of Chairman

Ramathlodi’s initiative, endorsed by the committee, to harness the

skill of all candidates shortlisted for the Human Rights Commission

into an advisory panel to the Justice committee, on which they will

serve on a voluntary basis and without any remuneration or cost to

Parliament.



Therefore, even though some of the best candidates cannot provide

their skills and leadership to the Human Rights Commission, they can
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 82 of 190


nonetheless contribute to the overall formula of governance through

our own committee.



Our vote of support is also based on the undertaking made during the

interviews by all nominees to turn over a new page. Until now, the

Human Rights Commission has been lame, weak and meek. In the past 15

years, much more has been achieved in the protection of human rights

by NGOs, which brought litigation against government in actual

redress of human rights violations in spite of their much smaller

budgets, which is more than could be said for the Human Rights

Commission. This must now change.



The Asmal report clearly indicated that Adv Mushwana misunderstood

his role under the Constitution when he was the Public Protector and

acted in a subservient and advisory capacity to government. This has

been pointed out to him during the interviews and his inclusion on

the commission is on the basis of him agreeing to change his ways.



The commission is not there to advise and counsel government or

exercise oversight over its department. Its primary role is that of

being a defender of freedom and liberty, and stepping up to the task

of challenging and redressing any human rights violations in an

uncompromising fashion whenever and however they occur. Thank you.

[Time expired.]
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 83 of 190


Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, the ACDP would firstly like to

acknowledge the sterling work done by the outgoing commissioners

under the leadership of Jody Kollapen. We should remember that the

commission is mandated with the very important task of monitoring

the progressive realisation by government of socioeconomic rights.



The ACDP also wishes to acknowledge the accommodating attitude

displayed by the ANC during the process. We led the questioning of

candidates on their understanding of their mandate and how they saw

its relationship with the executive in Parliament, and we are

grateful for that opportunity.



However, the ACDP shares reservations expressed by my colleagues

concerning Adv Mushwana. We also have reservations about

Adv Mpumlwana, who, in response to a question indicated that, if he

had his way, he would ban the private practice of law and medicine.

This is hardly the response expected from someone steeped in a human

rights tradition. Consequently, the ACDP will abstain on this vote.

Thank you.



Mr J H JEFFERY: Chairperson, there was quite an extensive process

undertaken by the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional

Development in deciding on names to fill the vacancies in the Human

Rights Commission. To recap: The terms of office of four of the five

existing full-time members of the Human Rights Commission will be
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                               PAGE 84 of 190


expiring. One member – that is Pregs Govender – will be left and the

one part-time member’s term is also expiring.



Adverts were placed in the media in April, with the closing date in

May. The committee and a number of nominations were received from

that. The committee decided to readvertise, as the advert didn’t

specify that we may want to appoint part-time commissioners. Further

adverts were therefore placed in the media closing on 4 September

2009. There were 217 nominations received. We shortlisted 32 and

then had interviews from 14 to 17 September. Two nominees withdrew

and three more were unavailable. In total we interviewed 27 people.



The quality of the people who were interviewed was very high and the

committee was very sorry that it couldn’t appoint more people. One

part of the committee report reflects the desire that more funding

could be found to engage more commissioners. We nevertheless

recommended four full-time and two part-time commissioners, whose

names are in the ATCs of Friday.



We also felt that it would be very useful if we could use the

expertise that we came across during the interviews, and try to

encourage a number of those people who were not successful to give

technical support on human rights to the Justice committee as we do

our work.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                PAGE 85 of 190


In total, after much deliberation, having to consider the whole

issue of representivity, the issue of area and distribution, these

are the names that the committee came up with.



In response to two of the previous speakers, on the issue around the

role of the Human Rights Commission, it is not an NGO; it is there

to protect human rights, but part of it is to engage government on

that. If you read the Human Rights Commission’s report, they have

received over 1 000 complaints, which were dealt with without having

to write formal reports and come up with findings. For example,

people who do not have ID books, people who weren’t able to get

pensions; and those were done through engagement with government.



Of the 13-odd reports that they have produced since 2002, about 100

have actually been findings against government, and that was during

Adv Mushwana’s term. I think it’s been unfortunate that some of the

issues were raised in the interviews, for example, Mr Swart referred

to Adv Mpumlwana’s comment about not having private lawyers. I think

it was misconstrued and misunderstood.



It was in the context of the fact that if you want equality, then

you don’t really have equality if a richer person can employ a

better skilled or better lawyer. It was in that context that he made

the comment. As for the comments by Ms Adams, unfortunately she

didn’t raise them in the hearing. It would have been useful to have
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 86 of 190


put those to Adv Mpumlwana and drawn them to the attention of the

committee, rather than making a display in front of the House.



Having said that, I would like to thank everybody who participated

in the process, the people who applied and the people who came to

the interviews and participated in them - I do so on behalf of the

chairperson, who is unable to be here, as he is at the Judicial

Service Commission hearings - the members of the committee who had

to wade through a lot of papers and a lot of CVs and sit through

endless hours of interviews. Therefore, as the ANC, we support the

names that have been put forward in the report before the House.

Thank you. [Applause.]



Debate concluded.



Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, I believe we have to go to a vote on this

anyway, so I’m not sure why you are calling for objections.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): That is the procedure, and I

am not sure why you are questioning it now.



Mr M J ELLIS: I think we should talk to the Table staff and get this

sorted out.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): No, no. Just sit down, hon

Ellis.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 87 of 190


Question put: That the nomination of Ms L Mokate, Adv B J Malatji,

Adv L M Mushwana and Adv L K B Mpumlwana for appointment as full-

time commissioners and of Ms J Love and Dr D Titus for appointment

as part-time commissioners on the South African Human Rights

Commission be approved.



Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, I don’t think it is as simple as that,

sir. The Constitution says there has to be a vote in Parliament on

this and there has got to be a simple majority.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon Ellis, I am coming to

that guide. You are ahead of us.



Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, the DA will be abstaining from this.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Thank you very much. We will

note that abstention. I will now proceed, hon Ellis. You are ahead

of me. These are the guidelines we follow every time we have to

decide on something.



AYES - 217: Abram, S; Adams, L H; Adams, P E; Ainslie, A R; Baloyi ,

M R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bhengu , N R; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Blaai, B

C; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, T;

Botha, Y R; Cebekhulu, R N; Chabane, O C; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T

D; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H;

De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlamini, B
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 88 of 190


O; Dlodlo, A; Dlulane , B N; Doidge, G Q M; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M

C; Dunjwa, M L; Farisani, T S; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C

T; Fubbs, J L; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P;

George, M E; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Gololo , C L; Goqwana, M B;

Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom , D A; Hangana, N E;

Jeffery, J H; Jordan, Z P; Kekane, C D; Kenye, T E; Kganare, D A;

Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Kilian, J D; Komphela, B

M; Koornhof, G W; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kotsi,

C M; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lebenya- Ntanzi, S P; Lekgetho , G;

Lishivha, T E; Luthuli, A N; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabaso, X;

Mabedla, N R; MacKenzie, G D; Madasa, Z L; Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M

V; Magagula, V V; Magau, K R; Magazi , M N; Magwanishe, G ; Makasi,

X C; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Malgas, H

H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D;

Mangena, M S; Martins, B A D; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Mashishi,

A C; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F;

Matlanyane, H F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Mbili, M

E; Mdaka, M N; Mdakane, M R; Mentor, M P; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L

N; Mkhize, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S

G; Mnguni, P B; Mnisi, N A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Morutoa,

M R; Moss, L N; Motshekga, M S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N;

Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabeni , S T;

Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A C; Nelson, W J; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T;

Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngonyama , L S; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C;

Nhanha, M A; Nhlengethwa , D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A;

Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntuli, Z C; Nxumalo, M D ; Nyalungu, R
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 89 of 190


E; Nyama, M M A; Nyanda, S; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, M N; Oosthuizen,

G C; Oriani-Ambrosini, M G; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M; Peters,

E D; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pillay, S M;

Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Ramatlakane, L; Ramodibe, D M; Rantsolase,

M A; Rwexana, S P; Saal, G; Scheemann, G D; Sefularo, M; Segale-

Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; Sexwale, T M G; Shabangu, S; Shiceka, S;

Shilowa, M S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhidla, N N ; SIngh, N; Sithole, S C

N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skosana, M B; Smith, V G; Snell, G T;

Sogoni, E M; Sosibo, J E; Suka , L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B;

Surty, M E; Thabethe, E ; Thobejane, S G; Tinto, B; Tlake, M F;

Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L;

Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B ; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; van

Rooyen, D D; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; van Wyk, A; Vukuza-Linda, N Y;

Williams, A J; Xaba, P P; Xasa, T; Yengeni, L E; Zondi, K M; Zulu, B

Z.



ABSTAIN - 62: Boinamo, G G; Bosman , L L; Coetzee, T W; Davidson, I

O; De Freitas, M S F; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Du Toit, N D; Dudley,

C; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Figlan, A M; George, D T;

James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D;

Kopane, S P; Krumbock, G R; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lorimer, J R B;

Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F;

Masango, S J; Maynier, D J; Mazibuko, L D; Michael, N W A; Mnqasela,

M; Mokgalapa, S; More, E; Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Ollis,

I M; Pretorius, P J C; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D;

Schafer, DA; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Smuts, M; Steele, M
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                              PAGE 90 of 190


H; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart , M; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M;

Terblanche, J F; Van Der Berg, N J; Van der Linde, J J; Van der

Walt, D; Van der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk , S M; Waters, M; Wenger,

M.



Question agreed to.



Nomination of Ms L Mokate, Adv B J Malatji, Adv L M Mushwana and Adv

L K B Mpumlwana for appointment as full-time commissioners and of Ms

J Love and Dr D Titus for appointment as part-time commissioners on

the South African Human Rights Commission accordingly agreed to, in

accordance with section 193(5)(b)(ii) of the Constitution.



     CONSIDERATION OF RECOMMENDATION OF A PERSON FOR APPOINTMENT AS

                            PUBLIC PROTECTOR



Mrs N W A MICHAEL: Hon Chairperson, the South African Constitution

in section 1, the Bill of Rights, makes provision for the protection

of human rights. The protection mechanisms are also called ―the

state institutions supporting constitutional democracy‖. Chapter 9

of the Constitution creates seven institutions for protecting

people’s rights and for making sure that the government does its

work properly.



One of the most important of these institutions is the Office of the

Public Protector. The Public Protector is, therefore, one of the
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 91 of 190


very cornerstones of our democracy. The Public Protector represents

citizens and watches over the activities of government officials to

stop them abusing their powers. The Public Protector is an

independent official and is accountable to the Constitution.



Public Protector officials must act in a transparent way and must

send a report of their activities and findings to Parliament at

least once a year. I have been asked many times what the actual

function of the Public Protector is.



Allow me now, in a nutshell, to give a brief breakdown of the

functions of this office. The Public Protector must investigate

complaints about any of the following: poor administration of

government, government officials who abuse their powers, improper

conduct of public officials, corruption of public funds by public

officials and any act or omission by public officials that results

in prejudice to a citizen. It must also resolve disputes and refer

matters to other agencies, for example the Attorney-General, to

prosecute the person who is found guilty of any misconduct.



I have also been asked who can approach the Public Protector. The

answer is simple: Any person can make a complaint to the Public

Protector. If you want to make a complaint, you must make an oral or

written statement stating the following: what the complaint is

about, why the Public Protector must investigate the complaint and

give other information that might be relevant to the case.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 92 of 190


The services of the Public Protector are free. One of the biggest

problems facing the Public Protector is the lack of public knowledge

of this important office. Most of us sitting here know exactly what

the Public Protector must do, but the general public have very

little information regarding this office. This particular point came

out very strongly during our recent interview sessions with all the

candidates and they all indicated that they would want to make this

office more accessible and better known.



I would now like to discuss the process that the ad hoc committee on

the appointment of the new Public Protector went through. Firstly,

allow me to thank the committee for ensuring that the process was

free, fair and transparent at all times. I would also like to thank

my colleagues on the committee for ensuring a professional yet

congenial atmosphere during the entire process.



What can be at times a very tedious and time-consuming process was

kept interesting and enjoyable by ensuring that questioning was both

vibrant and relevant. Much of the success of this committee is

thanks to the committee chairperson, the hon Mike Masutha, whom I

thanked in the committee but would once again like to thank in this

House.



I am thrilled that the recommended candidate’s name, Ms Thulisile

Madonsela, comes to this House for acceptance backed by the

unanimous support of the ad hoc committee. I can inform this House
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 93 of 190


that the atmosphere in the committee was quite festive when we

realised that, regardless of party affiliation, all parties

represented were in favour of the same candidate.



Allow me to express the contentment of the DA regarding the name of

the suggested appointee, Ms Thulisile Madonsela. She has displayed a

sense of fairness and justice, the ability to remain calm in a

difficult situation. She has shown outstanding knowledge of the law

and, most importantly, she is not affiliated to any political party.



We trust that she will be a breath of fresh air for this office,

bringing her expertise and strength of character to this office. We

trust that she will make the Office of the Public Protector an

office for all the people of South Africa by making it acceptable to

all the people of South Africa. A tough task lies ahead of our new

Public Protector as much will be expected from this new appointee.



The DA expects the following: complete transparency and

accountability, that the new appointee adhere strictly to the

separation of powers, total lack of influence from any political

party, strength of conviction to investigate any government official

against whom a complaint is brought, and that the new appointee act

only in the best interests of South Africa and the people of South

Africa.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 94 of 190


On behalf of the DA we wish the new Public Protector all the best

with the work that lies ahead. We trust that we will not be

disappointed by the appointee and we look forward to a free and fair

and transparent Public Protector who will assist with the

safeguarding of our Constitution. One nation, one future, one Public

Protector! I thank you. [Applause.]



Mr M E GEORGE: Chairperson, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, Members of

Parliament, Cope stands in support of the appointment of Thulisile

Nomkhosi Madonsela in the position of Public Protector. The Public

Protector is one of six Chapter 9 state institutions supporting

constitutional democracy.



It is therefore our view that the appointment of the Public

Protector be taken very seriously and more especially by the members

of Cope because we are the only party that stands here to defend

democracy and the Constitution. [Laughter.]



The person who is to be appointed Public Protector must be a person

of very good credentials, with integrity and high moral values. This

person must investigate any conduct in state affairs or in the

public administration that is in section 182(1)(a) of the

Constitution, therefore, independence, accessibility to all persons

and honesty are the critical ingredients. This ad hoc committee,

under the capable leadership of Adv Masutha, performed this task in

a manner which was credible, transparent and open.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                PAGE 95 of 190


All candidates were interviewed in a cordial and friendly

atmosphere. Even the discussions on deciding on the candidates were

frank and honest, though I must say there was not much discussion

because all parties agreed on one name. Even those who did not

succeed, were very good candidates. In fact, as a South African, I

felt proud to know that we have such high-calibre people in our

country. It is just that we wanted one person.



I wish to thank everyone we worked with and I can say with

confidence, Comrade Chairperson, that this appointment is an

appointment of Parliament not of the ruling party. Thank you. [Time

expired.] [Applause.]



Mr V B NDLOVU: Sihlalo, bengicela ungikhuzele labo ababanga umsindo.

[Chairperson, will you ask those who are making a noise to keep

quiet, please.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): It is said that you on the

left side of the House are making a noise.



Mnu V B NDLOVU: Sihlalo, neNdlu yakho ehloniphekile, ngize lapha

ukuzosekela igama Lomvikeli Womphakathi uNkosazana Thulisile

Nomkhosi Madonsela. Yigama leli elivunywe yiwo wonke amaqembu

ngokufanayo esingazange sibange nokubanga kukona.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 96 of 190


Kuyaqala ukuthi sibonge kuwena Sihlalo, njengoSihlalo waleli komiti

ukuthi uwenze kahle umsebenzi, futhi waziphatha kahle. Sengathi

ungakhula - ukhule uzukhokhobe. Kuthi nalabo abakusizayo...

[Ihlombe.] ... kahleni ukukhwahla kahleni ukukhwahla, nizongiqedela

isikhathi. Kuthi nalabo abakusizayo bakusize njalo ukuze ikusasa

lethu likwazi ukuqhakaza ngoba usemncane.



Ukuze nale Ndlu ikwazi ukuhlonipheka kusasa, sithi uma senza into

yezwe singaphikisani size siyolala khona kodwa sazi ukuthi

sisebenzela izwe sisheshe sivumelane entweni ehlakaniphile.

Ngiyathokoza kakhulu. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs

follows.)



[Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson, and this august House, I am here to

support the nomination of Ms Thulisile Nomkhosi Madonsela as the new

Public Protector. This nomination was supported by all the parties

without any objections.



Chairperson, it is the first time that we thank you as the

chairperson of this committee for doing your job well and for

behaving yourself. May you grow and live long. And to those who are

assisting you ... [Applause.] Do not applaud yet, for you will take

up my time. And to those who are assisting you, may they always do

it so that our future can be bright since you are still young.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 97 of 190


That would enable this House to be respected in future. When we

serve the country, we should not argue until the cows come home, but

we should know that we are serving our country and we need to agree

quickly on any sensible issue. Thank you very much. [Applause.]]



Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, the ACDP supports the recommendation that

Ms Madonsela be appointed as Public Protector. The Public Protector

is mandated to investigate any improper government conduct,

including maladministration, dishonest acts and unlawful enrichment.

Its independence and impartiality are guaranteed by the

Constitution.



Understandably, therefore, the office has an enormous workload, but

was beset by internal problems highlighted by an ad hoc

parliamentary committee into the issue in 2006. Its challenges were

further ventilated by an Ad Hoc Committee on Review of Chapter 9 and

Associated Institutions, such as the increased backlog of cases, a

problematic data system and a lack of co-operation from departments

following complaints.



In recommending a new Public Protector, we as Parliament will have

to take a far greater role in interacting with and addressing

shortcomings highlighted in the ad hoc committee. We cannot,

however, infringe on its independence.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 98 of 190


It is noteworthy that its budget allocations will have more than

doubled between the 2003-04 and 2009-10 financial years. We need to

ensure that the public is receiving value for its money. I thank

you.



Adv T M MASUTHA: Chairperson, colleagues, I would like to thank

colleagues, especially members of the adhoc committee, first of all

for expressing confidence in me by entrusting me with the

responsibility to lead this project and in particular for the

compliments that I have been showered with today. [Laughter.]



It is a bit unusual for the opposition to be unanimous in supporting

a ruling party chairperson. I can assure you that yes, the

opposition was unanimous in supporting this name but so was the ANC.

I can assure you that the ruling party was supportive of this

process throughout and was happy with the outcome, just as the

opposition is.



Chapter 9 of the Constitution provides for the establishment of the

governing principles for state institutions to strengthen

constitutional democracy in the Republic, commonly known as Chapter

9 institutions. Among these is the Public Protector, which is the

subject of this discussion.



The Constitution proceeds in section 181(2) to (5) to outline the

general principles governing these institutions as follows:
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                               PAGE 99 of 190


  (2)    These institutions are independent, and subject only to the

         Constitution and the law, and they must be impartial and

         must exercise their powers and perform their functions

         without fear, favour or prejudice.



  (3)    Other organs of state, through legislative and other

         measures, must assist and protect these institutions to

         ensure the independence, impartiality, dignity and

         effectiveness of these institutions.



  (4)    No person or organ of state may interfere with the

         functioning of these institutions.



  (5)    These institutions are accountable to the National Assembly,

         and must report on their activities and the performance of

         their functions to the Assembly at least once a year.



Now, section 182(1)(a) outlines the specific mandate of the Public

Protector as being -



  (a)    to investigate any conduct in state affairs, or in the

         public administration in any sphere of government, that is

         alleged or suspected to be improper or to result in any

         impropriety or prejudice;



   (b)   to report on that conduct; and
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                               PAGE 100 of 190


   (c)   to take appropriate remedial action.



Let me say that one of the critical aspects that we looked at when

interviewing the candidates was to evaluate their understanding,

especially of this mandate, because we believe that it is one of the

critical institutions in the public sector that is essential as a

tool to facilitate access to service delivery and to ensure

accountability of government institutions.



The institution of Public Protector, we were of the view as a

committee, is one of the pillars of our Constitution precisely

because it is there to facilitate interaction between ordinary

people and the state and to instil in ordinary people confidence in

the state.



In addition, the Constitution bars the Public Protector from

interfering with court judgments and, finally, requires the Public

Protector to be accessible to the public and for its reports to be

public unless special circumstances, prescribed by law, allow for

such reports to be issued in confidence.



Now, Parliament on 24 April this year issued an invitation to the

public in the national media with a deadline of 8 May this year, for

nominations for the filling of the vacancy of Public Protector,

which becomes due on 15 October this year.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 101 of 190


Subsequent to that, however, the committee was of the view that it

is necessary to extend these deadlines in view of the circumstances

when the initial invitation was issued, namely the fact that it was

soon after elections. We were concerned that given the large number

of candidates who did not meet the basic requirements of the Act it

may well have to do with the fact that most people were still

focused on elections and were not aware of this invitation coming

out.



The result of our second invitation was that an additional number of

approximately 18 candidates came forward and 15 of them, in our

view, qualified for possible appointment. And I must commend the

credentials of Ms Thuli Madonsela who, as my colleagues from the

opposition confirmed, was head and shoulders above the rest and was

an obvious appointment for the committee.



I wish her well in her new appointment in the event that the

President confirms the recommendation of this House for her

appointment. The ANC supports her appointment. I thank you.

[Applause.]



Debate concluded.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Order! I now put the

question. The question before the House is that the recommendation
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 102 of 190


for the appointment of Ms T N Madonsela as the Public Protector be

approved. Are there any objections to the nomination?



HON MEMBERS: No!



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Order! Hon members, in terms

of section 193 (5)(b)(i) of the Constitution, the person nominated

for appointment as Public Protector must be approved by at least 60%

of members of the Assembly. Although a division has not been

demanded members are required to record their support for the

motion.



AYES - 268: Abram, S; Adams, L H; Adams, P E; Ainslie, A R; Baloyi ,

M R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bhengu , N R; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Blaai, B

C; Boinamo, G G; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Bosman , L

L; Botha, T; Botha, Y R; Chabane, O C; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D;

Coetzee, T W; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N;

Davidson, I O; Davies, R H; De Freitas, M S F; De Lange, J H;

Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlamini, B O; Dlodlo, A;

Dlulane , B N; Doidge, G Q M; Dreyer, A M; Du Toit, N D; Dubazana, Z

S; Dube, M C; Dudley, C; Duncan, P C; Dunjwa, M L; Ellis, M J;

Farisani, T S; Farrow, S B; Figlan, A M; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L;

Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gelderblom, J P; George,

D T; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Gololo , C L; Goqwana, M B; Gumede, D

M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom , D A; Hangana, N E; Huang, S-B;

James, W G; Jeffery, J H; Jordan, Z P; Kalyan, S V; Kekane, C D;
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 103 of 190


Kenye, T E; Kganare, D A; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E;

Kilian, J D; Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Komphela, B

M; Koornhof, G W; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kopane, S P; Kota-Fredericks,

Z A; Kotsi, C M; Kubayi, M T; Lamoela, H; Landers, L T; Lebenya-

Ntanzi, S P; Lee, T D; Lekgetho , G; Lishivha, T E; Lorimer, J R B;

Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T; Luthuli, A N; Luyenge, Z; Maake,

J J; Mabaso, X; Mabedla, N R; MacKenzie, G D; Madasa, Z L; Madlala,

N M; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R; Magazi , M

N; Magwanishe, G ; Makasi, X C; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z

S; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manana, M C; Mandela,

Z M D; Mangena, M S; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Martins, B A D;

Masango, S J; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Mashishi, A C; Masutha, T

M; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F;

Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Maynier, D J; Mbili, M E;

Mdaka, M N; Mdakane, M R; Mentor, M P; Mfeketo, N C; Mgabadeli, H C;

Michael, N W A; Mjobo, L N; Mkhize, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E

M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnguni, P B; Mnisi, N A; Mokgalapa, S;

Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; More, E; Morgan, G R; Morutoa, M R;

Moss, L N; Motau, S C; Motshekga, M S; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M;

Mthethwa, E N; Mubu, K S; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng,

M E; Ndabeni , S T; Ndlovu, V B; Ndude, H N; Nel, A C; Nelson, W J;

Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngele, N J; Ngonyama , L S; Ngwenya-

Mabila, P C; Nhanha, M A; Nhlengethwa , D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe,

M A A; Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntuli, Z C; Nxumalo, M D ;

Nyalungu, R E; Nyama, M M A; Nyanda, M F; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, M

N; Oosthuizen, G C; Oriani-Ambrosini, M G; Padayachie, R L; Peters,
 22 SEPTEMBER 2009                              PAGE 104 of 190


 E D; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pillay, S M;

 Pretorius, P J C; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G

 S; Ramodibe, D M; Rantsolase, M A; Robinson, D; Rwexana, S P; Saal,

 G; Scheemann, G D; Sefularo, M; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J;

 Selfe, J; Sexwale, T M G; Shabangu, S; Shiceka, S; Shilowa, M S;

 Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhidla, N N ; SIngh, N; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P

 S; Skosana, M B; Smiles, D C; Smith, V G; Smuts, M; Snell, G T;

 Sogoni, E M; Sosibo, J E; Steele, M H; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Suka ,

 L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Swart , M; Swart, S N;

 Swathe, M M; Terblanche, J F; Thabethe, E ; Thobejane, S G; Thomson,

 B; Tinto, B; Tlake, M F; Tobias, T V; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K;

 Tsenoli, S L; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van

 Der Berg, N J; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Walt, D; Van der

 Westhuizen, A P; van Rooyen, D D; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Van Schalkwyk,

 M C J; van Wyk, A; Vukuza-Linda, N Y; Waters, M; Wenger, M;

 Williams, A J; Xaba, P P; Xasa, T; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z;

 Zondi, K M; Zulu, B Z.



Question agreed to.



Nomination of Ms T N Madonsela for appointment as Public Protector

accordingly agreed to, in accordance with section 193(5)(b)(i) of the

Constitution.



                          10TH CONGRESS OF COSATU
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                              PAGE 105 of 190


                        (Member’s Statement)



Mr E NYEKEMBA (ANC): Chairperson, the ANC takes this opportunity to

salute the workers of our country under the leadership of Cosatu,

who in the most challenging circumstances have sustained and kept

alive the spirit of militant democratic trade unionism, which is

embodied in the policy and programme of the South African Congress

of Trade Unions.



The Congress of South African Trade Unions is a movement of ordinary

working men and women that have joined together to fight for a

better life for the workers in the thousands of workplaces across

the country. They are gathered in Gauteng province for their 10th

congress.



The largest federation of our country has met since yesterday to

review the past three years. They are planning and strategising for

the future under the current global economic crisis. They are

meeting under the theme ―Consolidating working-class power in

defence of decent work and socialism‖.



The ANC acknowledges and appreciates the militancy and political

consciousness of this revolutionary class and the role it has played

in the past and in the transformation of our society. Trade unions

have made, and they will continue to make, a great contribution to
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                 PAGE 106 of 190


the whole liberation movement in our efforts to realise the goal of

a better life for all our people. I thank you. [Applause.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Order! Hon members, could

you please lower the volumed your conversations so that we can hear

what members are saying.



                RIGHTS OF PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES



                           (Member’s Statement)



Mrs D ROBINSON: Chairperson, 10 long years ago in his state of the

nation address President Thabo Mbeki said:



 This society must guarantee the dignity of every citizen on the

 basis of good quality of life for every woman, man or child

 without regard to race, colour or disability.



In terms of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with

Disabilities, however, South Africa falls far short of the legal

obligations to promote, protect and ensure the full and equal

enjoyment of all human rights and freedoms and promote respect for

the inherent dignity and rights of persons with disabilities to

participate fully in our society.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 107 of 190


Our buildings, open spaces and transport facilities are not yet

fully accessible and persons with disabilities suffer inconvenience

and lack of dignity as they struggle to gain access to courts,

police stations, libraries, stadiums and rail and bus stations; yet

full and effective participation and inclusion society is the

requirement of the convention.



The DA believes that all major railway stations, buses and trains

should be upgraded to provide easy access and seating for passengers

with disabilities while the dial-a-ride service should be expanded

in all of our main cities.



Adequate facilities, such as extra-wide parking bays, dropped kerbs,

ramps at the correct gradient and special lanes for wheelchair users

should be mandatory and should be provided countrywide. Ramps and

railings should be obligatory.



The number of pedestrian crossings catering for the blind needs to

be increased dramatically. South Africa has to be disability-ready

not only for the influx of 2010 visitors, but for all South Africans

whose ability is limited.



It is essential that all citizens can travel safely and quickly and

compete on equal terms for job opportunities. The opportunity to

work and live independently, providing for themselves and enhancing

their quality of life, is essential.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 108 of 190




All South Africans must be treated with care and dignity and be

given the opportunity to compete equally. Currently, government is

failing in this challenge and South Africans cannot wait another 10

years for equal rights for all. Delivery is needed now. [Applause.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon members, I have been

waiting for hon Ellis to come back. I do sympathise with hon Ellis

when he says we have been repeating these procedures for almost 15

years. However, hon Ellis should also derive solace from waiting.



I was told that a man was saying, ―Look, I have 15 years’ experience

in this. And he was told, ―Look, you have one year’s experience

repeated for 15 years.‖ So we have that one year’s experience and we

have been repeating this for 15 years! [Interjections.]



Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, may I simply ask you, sir: Does 15 years’

experience mean making the same mistake over and over again, or not?

[Laughter.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): You are making my point, hon

member. [Laughter.]



Mr M J ELLIS: I just wanted to check it, Mr Chairperson, I wasn’t

sure what you were saying, but thank you very much, Chair. I

appreciate it very much indeed.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                 PAGE 109 of 190




              PROMOTION AND RECOGNITION OF NATIONAL SYMBOLS



                           (Member’s Statement)



Mr L S NGONYAMA (Cope): Chairperson, after centuries of struggle our

generation has a huge responsibility and profound privilege to

concretise the concept of common national identity that will rise

above political contestations and differences of any form as a

legacy for those who will come after us. One of the most important

cornerstones of such a project is the promotion and recognition of

our national symbols as an important beacon of our common

nationhood.



The sporadic use of old symbols, the old South African flag, by

misguided individuals can no longer be tolerated. And it should be

unconditionally condemned by all of us who are striving towards the

united future of committed South Africans. Likewise, disdainful use

of our new national symbols should also be avoided and to that end

this institution should set a key example.



As a starting point, let us correct spelling errors as can be found

in the explanations posted in the exhibition of historic and current

maces of Parliament in the foyer of the Old Assembly Hall, that is,

the transformed symbols.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                              PAGE 110 of 190


While these may be bona fide administrative oversights, they sit

there in full view of all to see and should be rectified without

delay. It may be small and viewed by some as small, but it creates

the impression of carelessness and cannot be tolerated. If we do not

correct the small things the big ones will also go wrong soon.

It may also be viewed as a lack of a culture of excellence in this

House. Let us work together and cultivate the appropriate respect

... [Time expired.]



              ANC INTERACTION WITH RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY



                        (Member’s Statement)



Mr S G THOBEJANE (ANC): Chairperson, the primary task of the ANC

remains the mobilisation of all the classes and strata that

objectively stand to benefit from the causes of social changes.



To mobilise all South Africans to contribute to the ongoing

transformation of our country, and in the process fostering

responsibility for our common destiny among all citizens of South

Africa, black and white, leaders representing the commission for

religious affairs of the ANC and the South African Council of

Churches met at Chief Albert Luthuli House in Johannesburg on Friday

18 September 2009.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                PAGE 111 of 190


The meeting was part of a series of engagements between the ANC

Commission for Religious Affairs and other faith-based

organisations. The objective was to hammer out a formula for co-

operation among all religious sectors in the light of contemporary

challenges facing the South African Council of Churches, the ANC and

the country at large.



Nation-building and achieving social cohesion are two of the most

important responsibilities of the ANC. Central to the two tasks is

the need to reaffirm and recommit to the moral vision and the value

system of our nation as outlined in the various historical documents

... [Time expired.]



           FAILURE OF RESERVE BANK TO APPEAR BEFORE PARLIAMENT



                          (Member’s Statement)



Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI (IFP): Chairperson, we note with concern

that, for the third time in a row, the South African Reserve Bank

failed to appear last Friday in front of the Portfolio Committee on

Finance.



There are different reasons, versions and justifications for this

failure, but the fact remains that at this crucial time of our

economic crisis with recurring rumours of tumult within the Reserve

Bank and several reports about the steps which have been taken
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                              PAGE 112 of 190


within its internal procedures, it’s a very serious problem that

Parliament is not placed in the position of exercising its oversight

function.



The Reserve Bank exercises a power which to a certain extent is

greater than any law that this Parliament may enact. To date, the

decision on the interest rate and money supply determines whether or

not we can repay our house bonds, whether business can refinance its

capex and whether people are going to be employed or will need to be

retrenched.



It is a grave disservice to the call of oversight and the call of

democracy that the Reserve Bank is not yet in a position to meet

with Parliament and we urge that the state of affairs be brought

back to normality even if that requires the chairman of the Finance

committee to issue a subpoena.



                AFRICA AND WORLD TRADE ORGANISATION



                        (Member’s Statement)



Mr S J NJIKELANA (ANC): Chairperson, the Economic Justice Network of

the Fellowship of Christian Councils in Southern Africa, Foccisa, is

hosting a three-day meeting early next month on the World Trade

Organisation, WTO, in preparation for the WTO ministerial conference
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 113 of 190


which could either enhance Africa’s position in global trade or

undermine its developmental agenda, particularly Nepad.



Lest we forget, Europe is still subsidising its cars at US$2 per

day. The United States is still subsidising 25 000 cotton farmers at

$3 billion a year, thereby undermining foreign competition whilst

also depressing world market prices.



On the other hand, there is a fallacy that the timely conclusion of

the Doha Round will help reverse the current global economic crisis.

What is lamentable is the soft-pedalling of some of the key emerging

powers in the developing world with regard to this fallacy. Such

unfortunate conduct will only reinforce the intransigence of

developed economies.



The ANC has been steadfast about the intensification of economic

diplomacy that leads to changes in colonial patterns of economic

relations, an effort which in the end will create equitable and fair

global trade, thus generating employment and contributing to poverty

eradication.



Here is another noble endeavour by civil society to sensitise and

draw the attention once again of global leaders to the long-term

risks. The ANC therefore lauds this meeting. Thank you. [Applause.]



    ATHLETICS SOUTH AFRICA’S ROLE IN CASTER SEMENYA CONTROVERSY
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                              PAGE 114 of 190


                        (Member’s Statement)



Mrs C DUDLEY (ACDP): Chair, South Africa is in danger of pursuing

medals at any price. The recent brutal treatment of Caster Semenya

is a great tragedy. Yet, watching Leonard Chuene repeatedly say he

would make the same decision again is more chilling. There is

something wrong when our officials admit to gross deception as an

error of judgment.



The President of Athletics South Africa refused to apologise for

allowing Caster Semenya to run. His statement suggests it was worth

anything if South Africa could win a medal, even at the cost of

wrecking a young girl’s life and allowing South Africans to become

known internationally as liars and cheats.



Sport is becoming increasingly emotional and demanding. We demand

the highest standards of integrity from our athletes. In turn, they

deserve to be represented with integrity by officials. In the wake

of the Olympic disappointments, South Africa’s Sports Commission and

Olympic Committee has launched an operation excellence project where

their target of 12 medals in London is well within sight.



South Africa has recently won six well-deserved medals at three

world championships. We do not need to cheat in order to win. We

must not strive for medals at any cost. Thank you. [Applause.]
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                              PAGE 115 of 190

    STATEMENT BY WORLD HEALTH ORGANISATION ON SWINE FLU VACCINE



                        (Member’s Statement)



Mrs H S MSWELI (IFP): Hon Chairperson, the IFP has noted with relief

that according to the World Health Organisation, WHO, the swine flu

virus has not yet mutated into a more serious disease and the

development of vaccines is proceeding on track.



The IFP believes that South Africa should not derive any false

comfort from the WHO statement, as welcome as it is. Too often,

medical interventions are a reaction after the horse has bolted. It

would be good if the Minister of Health clarified the Department of

Health’s strategy.



The IFP, however, calls upon the Department of Health to clarify

which segments of the population were being targeted to receive the

vaccine, and how the vaccine would be distributed. We further note

that the Department’s budget is dangerously overstretched. The IFP

also calls upon the Minister of Health to clarify if global funding

has been requested or negotiated to assist South Africa with the

roll-out of the H1N1 vaccine. I thank you. [Applause.]



   SOUTH AFRICA’S ROLE IN STRENGTHENING AFRICAN UNION STRUCTURES



                        (Member’s Statement)
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 116 of 190


Mrs N B GXOWA (ANC): Chairperson and members, the ANC has a long

tradition of international engagements and solidarity. This arises

from the understanding that our fortunes as a nation are intimately

interconnected with the fortunes of our neighbours.



On our continent, indeed, it is therefore on the basis both of moral

responsibility and collective self-interest that we continue to be

actively engaged in the efforts to build a better Africa and a just

world.



The ANC-led government, working together with other governments on

the continent, will continue to work for the strengthening of the AU

organs, including the African Investment Bank, the African Central

Bank, the African Monetary Bank, as well as the African Court of

Justice and Human Rights. South Africa will continue to work with

the African Union Commission to transform the Pan-Africa-Parliament

from an advisory body to a legislative one.



The ANC-led government will work together with people of our

continent for cohesion, unity, peace, democracy and the prosperity

of the African people and to strengthen the capabilities of the AU

to respond to the challenges we face as a continent. Thank you.

[Applause.]



     ESTABLISHMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE FORCE SERVICE COMMISSION
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                              PAGE 117 of 190


                        (Member’s Statement)



Mr D J MAYNIER (DA): Speaker, the recent violent clash between the

police and military unions was a national disgrace and a symptom of

another national disgrace, which was the failure of the officer

corps to effectively deal with grievances within the chain of

command of the Defence Force.



We, therefore, welcome the establishment of the National Defence

Force Service Commission to investigate and make recommendations

regarding the remuneration and conditions of service of members of

the Defence Force. The commission faces an enormous challenge

because, to succeed, members of the commission will have to have an

honest conversation about the root causes of the problems in our

Defence Force.



The root cause of the problem in the Defence Force, as we all know,

is transformation. We are told transformation of the state entails

extending the power of the national liberation movement over all

levels of power, including the army, the police and the intelligence

structures.



The fact is that transformation is the very opposite of military

professionalism. The appointment of officers on the basis of party

loyalty, which is the essence of transformation, is the very
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                              PAGE 118 of 190


opposite of the appointment of military officers on the basis of

merit, which is the essence of military professionalism.



The appointment of the commission represents an opportunity to get

this right. We cannot afford to fail, but to succeed we need to

begin an honest conversation about the state of the SANDF. That is

going to take courage and we hope the commission is up to the task.

[Applause.]



       EXPENSIVE TRANSNET SETTLEMENT WITH MTHUNZI CONSORTIUM



                        (Member’s Statement)



Mr L RAMATLAKANE (Cope): Chairperson, in Cope we are as appalled as

this august House, the business community, the labour unions and

South Africans in general by the report in the City Press of a

massive settlement between R60 million and R70 million paid out to

the Mthunzi consortium by Transnet.



What is going on with Transnet, and is the Minister supportive of

all of this? All of us certainly would like to know more about the

suspension, calls for the reinstatement of persons to their posts,

contestation for power, legal battles, the cavalier disregard of

proper procedure and processes, and now a massive out-of-court cash

settlement running into millions.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                               PAGE 119 of 190


When Maria Ramos took over Transnet, she found that there was no

record of any sale agreement with the Mthunzi consortium for 5% of

MTN’s shareholding held by Transnet through the M-Cell Trust for the

capital benefit of the second defined benefit fund. If these shares

were sold, the board’s approval of the trust would have been

required for any disposal of these shares and any agreement of sale

would have created a paper trail.



Maria Ramos said that there was no agreement, so for what reason is

R60 million to R70 million being given over to the Mthunzi

consortium? Scopa and the Auditor-General should investigate this

matter at once and those who are at the centre of this whole sad,

sorry, despicable saga should be fully investigated and action taken

against the offenders. [Time expired.] [Applause.]



                    NATIONAL YOUTH SERVICE PROGRAMME



                         (Member’s Statement)



Mr D K MATABOGE (ANC): Chairperson, the ANC has always viewed young

people as the most important stratum in society. We will continue to

ensure that they are fully integrated into society as agents of

change, because we remain convinced that youth development has a

place in the broader framework of reconstruction and development in

our society.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                              PAGE 120 of 190


The newly established National Youth Development Agency, NYDA, which

was launched in June, has committed itself to recruiting one million

young people to participate in its National Youth Service Programme.

The agency has developed several strategies to ensure that the

target is met.



The programme will allow undergraduates and unemployed youth with

accredited skills an opportunity to get involved in various

activities to uplift communities. It will develop a database of

young people in each particular skill, which will be recorded and

would make it easy for selection. The ANC commends the NYDA for the

speed with which they have started to discharge their important

responsibility. [Applause.]



      RESIDENTS TAKE MUNICIPALITY TO COURT FOR BASIC SERVICES



                        (Member’s Statement)



Mrs M WENGER (DA): It is indeed a shocking state of affairs when

residents have to take the municipality to court in order to receive

basic services. The residents of Harry Gwala informal settlement

have been around since 1989 without basic services, and the

Ekurhuleni Metro is not interested in their plight. Asthma is

prevalent in the community and 50% of the children under the age of

five die of diarrhoea-related illnesses.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 121 of 190


Eight informal settlements were surveyed recently and Dr Mary Galvin

from The Water Dialogues is distressed about the situation and

stresses that a water crisis is imminent. The organisation is taking

the matter to the Constitutional Court with the backing of the

Landless People’s Movement.



Vusumuzi is another informal settlement of 7 500 residents who are

experiencing the same problem. Houses by 2005 had been promised, but

still no progress. Infrastructure is nonexistent and people live in

squalor. We, as the DA, have in our possession 3 000 signatures to

back this.



Thokoza follows the same trend. We visited the site and have

numerous photographs to prove this. This is due to a lack of credit

control. Ekurhuleni is fast depleting its R1,9 billion surplus as of

1 July 2009 and it’s down to the last R560 million, which will be

exhausted by the end of the month. Furthermore, Ekurhuleni is

applying for a loan of R850 million, but how are they going to

service this loan?



It is clear that the ANC-controlled Ekurhuleni Metropolitan Council

is incapable of managing their finances. Thank you. [Time expired.]

[Applause.]



                      FOOTBALL FRIDAY CAMPAIGN
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                              PAGE 122 of 190


                        (Member’s Statement)



Mrs G K TSEKE (ANC): Chairperson, the ANC believes that sport and

recreation facilitate the promotion of national unity through

developing a united, national pride transcending cultural,

linguistic and racial barriers as well as enhancing international

relations and friendship.



The ANC-led government has welcomed and endorsed the launch of the

Football Friday campaign, which aims to spread World Cup fever

amongst all South Africans. The campaign encourages South Africans

to wear a football jersey every Friday for the next 40 weeks leading

up to the World Cup. This is to raise awareness about the hosting of

the 2010 Fifa World Cup and to show support for the national team.



The ANC, together with our people, will work to ensure that this

world event contributes to creating decent work opportunities,

particularly for the youth, women and street traders and that it

will promote procurement of local goods, services and products.



Ke a leboga. [Thank you.]



       GOVERNMENT SHOULD ERADICATE ILLEGAL CROSS-BORDER TRADE



                        (Member’s Statement)
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 123 of 190


Mnr S J F MARAIS (DA): Voorsitter, daar bestaan ernstige kommer oor

die nakoming van wetlike vereistes rakende oorgrenshandel. Die

Departement van Handel en Nywerheid het verskeie maatreëls in plek

om tariewe, heffings en belasting op in- en uitvoere te hef via,

onder meer, die samewerking van Sars, Itac en grensbeheer deur die

Departement van Binnelandse Sake.



So word daar byvoorbeeld aksynsbelasting, BTW en ander tariewe gehef

op plaaslik geproduseerde en ingevoerde alkoholiese items. Hierdie

maatreëls het inkomste vir die fiskus, die voorkoming van onbillike

mededingingspraktyke uit die buiteland van soms gesubsidieerde

produkte en die beskerming van werkgeleenthede ten doel.



Voorsitter, ’n tendens het ontwikkel wat die gebrekkige kapasiteit

en oneffektiwiteit van die huidige regering benadruk. Onwettig

ingevoerde alkoholiese produkte word gereeld in Suid-Afrika

aangebied teen pryse wat selfs laer is as die aksynsbelasting op

soortgelyke wettig ingevoerde produkte en plaaslik geproduseerde

produkte. Na raming verloor die fiskus bykans R400 miljoen per jaar

aan inkomste vanweë hierdie praktyk.



Nodeloos om te sê, beteken dit ook dat ’n aansienlike aantal

werkgeleenthede in die proses verlore gaan. Dit is die

verantwoordelikheid van nie minder as vier Ministeries om te

verseker dat Suid-Afrikaanse produsente, wettige invoerders en die
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 124 of 190


fiskus hierteen beskerm word. Hierdie vier is die Ministeries van

Polisie, Binnelandse Sake, Handel en Nywerheid en Finansies.



Wanneer gaan die regering iets daadwerklik hieraan doen? Of is hulle

nie bewus van hierdie toedrag van sake nie? Die regering moet

dringend planne implementeer om alle onwettige oorgrenshandel in die

kiem te smoor. Ek dank u. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans

member’s statement follows.)



[Mr S J F MARAIS (DA): Chairperson, there are serious concerns

pertaining to compliance with legal requirements with regard to

cross-border trade. The Department of Trade and Industry has various

measures in place to impose tariffs, levies and taxes on imports and

exports by means of, amongst others, co-operation from Sars, Itac

and border control by the Department of Home Affairs.



In this way, for instance, excise tax, VAT and other tariffs are

imposed on liquor items that are produced locally and imported.

These measures are aimed at providing an income for the fiscus,

preventing unfair practices from competitors abroad often in respect

of subsidised products, and protecting job opportunities.



Chairperson, a trend has evolved that underlines the inadequate

capacity and inefficiency of the current government. In South

Africa, illegally imported liquor products are frequently offered at

prices that are even lower than the excise tax on similar products
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                              PAGE 125 of 190


that are legally imported or produced locally. It is estimated that

the fiscus loses approximately R400 million in income per year as a

result of this practice.



Needless to say, this also means that a considerable number of job

opportunities are lost in the process. It’s the responsibility of no

fewer than four Ministries to ensure that South African producers,

legal importers and the fiscus are protected from this. These four

Ministries are those of Police, Home Affairs, Trade and Industry,

and Finance.



When is the government going to take decisive action against this?

Or are they unaware of this state of affairs? The government needs

to implement plans urgently to nip all forms of illegal cross-border

trade in the bud. Thank you. [Applause.]]



                RIGHTS OF PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES



           PROMOTION AND RECOGNITION OF NATIONAL SYMBOLS



     ESTABLISHMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE FORCE SERVICE COMMISSION



                       (Minister’s Response)



The MINISTER OF TOURISM: Chairperson, I would like to respond to

three issues: The issue of access for people with disabilities, the
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 126 of 190


issue of national symbols and a common national identity, and the

issue that the DA raised on the Defence Force and so-called

independence.



On the issue of access for people with disabilities, I am quite sure

that the Minister of Public Works will respond, if not now then

later, with regard to government buildings and government

institutions.



With regard to the hospitality industry and one of the issues that

the hon member raised, we had a series of meetings with the

organisations and the associations representing that sector of our

society. I can report to the House that we are now considering, as

the grading council, including access for people with disabilities

as one of the requirements in the grading process. That should take

it, in my view, a huge step forward: not words only but real action

on the issue. I believe that it will make a difference.



On the issue of national symbols, we agree with the sentiments

expressed by the hon member from Cope. We also believe that those

people still using the old symbols are really a fringe element of

society; it is not a major threat. What we should rather ask

ourselves is how we cultivate loyalty to, and support and enthusiasm

for, our new national symbols. In the first years of our democracy,

it was very telling at rugby matches how suddenly, when we came to

the second part of the national anthem, it was sung aloud - and
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                              PAGE 127 of 190


probably quite the opposite at soccer matches - but that is

changing.



If one listens and looks closely nowadays, I see fewer and fewer

people who look at the words on a piece of paper; and people are

singing more from the heart. I think it’s because also in our

schools our children are starting to learn the national anthem.



The flag and the anthem are two of the success stories of our new

democracy. We are 15 years into it; let us make sure that all our

people can sing that national anthem properly. Let us make sure that

for 2010 our supporters on the pavilions don’t only have a vuvuzela,

but also have the South African flag.



The last issue on ... It has expired? Thank you. [Time expired.]

[Applause.]



      RESIDENTS TAKE MUNICIPALITY TO COURT FOR BASIC SERVICES



                       (Minister’s Response)



The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:

House Chairperson, my response is directed to the shadow deputy

minister of the DA, Madam Wenger, on the issue that she has raised

around the informal settlements in Ekurhuleni. Let’s put it in
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                              PAGE 128 of 190


context: Ekurhuleni has the highest number of informal settlements

in South Africa in a metro.



When we look at the issue that has been raised, she is talking about

these issues whilst, when she was the Mayor of the Vaal Local

Municipality in Midvaal, there is an informal settlement that is an

eyesore there that she did nothing about, that she never provided

services for. [Interjections.] In fact, they didn’t even want that

informal settlement. Now we are saying that she must stop throwing

stones when she lives in a glass house, because the track record of

the member is not assisting us.



To conclude, Chairperson, we are engaging with the metro of

Ekurhuleni because this matter is beyond them. We are talking with

them to look, as government, at a national and provincial level of

assisting. We will brief her on the outcome. Thank you. [Applause.]



                RIGHTS OF PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES

                      10TH CONGRESS OF COSATU



                       (Minister’s Response)



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, two matters: I just

want to develop the thing, and I fully support the member from the

DA, the hon member, who raised the issue of compliance with the
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 129 of 190


International Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities

and access.



I just want to say, from the transport side, we take this duty very

seriously, and one is pleased to say that the Rea Vaya Bus Rapid

Transit system is a wonderful example of beginning to move in this

direction. It is very difficult, obviously, to turn public transport

around in general and specifically also then to make our public

transport accessible to people, not just to the disabled but to

pregnant moms, to people with prams, and to young children and so

on. It’s a big challenge.



The Rea Vaya Bus Rapid Transit system in Johannesburg has ramps,

platforms that are level with the floors of these buses and large

doors so that people can get in and out very easily. We have

monitored the process over the last couple of weeks of its starter

service and are very pleased to notice that people in wheelchairs

are using the bus rapid transport system.



There are also special locking systems for at least two wheelchairs

in every bus, so this is a small beginning but moving in the right

direction.



Obviously, I also want to add my support to the statement from the

hon member from the ANC welcoming the Cosatu congress. I was pleased

to see that hon member Shilowa also added his applause to that
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                 PAGE 130 of 190


statement. [Laughter.] It is incredibly important that, in South

Africa, we have a well-organised trade union movement. It is a huge

asset, and I think particularly in times of global capitalist

crises, in a situation of deep recession, one of the wonderful

things about South Africa is that, unlike most other countries, our

response embodied in the Nedlac framework agreement is a response

that is not top-down just from government or just from government

consulting with the business sector.



Uniquely in South Africa we’ve got a framework approach to the

global crisis - which is affecting us obviously quite seriously in

South Africa - that is a joint effort between government, the trade

union movement, the community sector and business.



I think that is a testament to the strength of the working class.

Otherwise the working class, and poor people, always become the

brake pad for these kinds of crises, and I think we are lucky to

have a strong and effective Cosatu meeting. Thank you. [Time

expired.] [Applause.]



                    RIGHTS OF PERSONS WITH DISABILIIES



                          (Minister’s Response)



The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: House Chairperson, in response to the

member from the DA, in terms of accessibility of public buildings
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 131 of 190


and other facilities, this has been an area of concern for us in

Public Works.



We are taken aback by the miniscule budget that we have to make

government buildings accessible, and we have already taken a

decision in our Minmec that the Deputy Minister of Public Works will

drive this campaign and make sure that these budgets are spent.



In the past these budgets remained unspent or very small amounts of

these budgets were spent. But we are happy to report that in this

financial year, it is clear that we will overspend with regard to

making government buildings accessible, but we do require additional

resources.



I must also commend the ANC for its approach, policies and guidance

in this regard, in treating people with disabilities as equals in

society and, as we can see, the ANC has the largest number of

disabled members as MPs, MPLs, councillors and even a Deputy

Minister. Thank you, sir.



                AFRICA AND WORLD TRADE ORGANISATION

   SOUTH AFRICA’S ROLE IN STRENGTHENING AFRICAN UNION STRUCTURES

       GOVERNMENT SHOULD ERADICATE ILLEGAL CROSS-BORDER TRADE

                    NATIONAL YOUTH SERVICE PROGRAMME

     ESTABLISHMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE FORCE SERVICE COMMISSION
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                              PAGE 132 of 190


                       (Minister’s Response)



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Mrs T V Tobias):

Chairperson, I want to first start with the statement by hon

Njikelana. I can’t agree more with what he said, but one thing that

we need to note is that if the WTO can be true to its developmental

objectives that will finish the Doha Round.



Currently we are faced with the situation where people are not

honest about the discussions. There are still protectionist

approaches. The current debate in the Financial Times between China

and the United States is a typical example of tariffs imposed in

line with this approach. I think it is something that we need to be

bold and frank about, when we hold discussions and we are able to

resolve it.



Of course, I agree with him. This is colonisation of a special type,

in a way, because I don’t believe in the current conjuncture that

people are merchants in an equitable and fair manner. You will still

find trade being inequitable and unfair in such a way that people

want to benefit more from other countries and contribute less.



Africans continue to allow holes to be punched into Sacu, for

example. The economic partnership agreement, EPA, that is being

signed by Lesotho, Swaziland and other countries, actually

undermines the regional integration that we are trying to achieve to
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                              PAGE 133 of 190


build a regional economy and that speaks to the statement of Mrs

Bertha Gxowa on Africa having an African investment bank.



On the issue of taxes that has been raised by the DA member, let us

not pre-empt discussions of the Institute of Purchasing and Supply

SA, Ipsa, and other role-players. Some of the issues that we’ll be

discussing are tariffs and taxes.



We want taxes on our products to be reduced so that we can

effectively compete on the international markets. That is one of the

issues our Minister, when we go to the Ipsa meeting, will be

engaging with. Let’s not pre-empt it. It is one discussion that we

take seriously.



On the National Youth Development Agency, which is a concept of the

youth league of the ruling party, it has effectively integrated

youth institutions in the country, and we have seen responsibility

taken by that structure to put its programme forward. Minister

Chabane presented here in front of us the programme of that

institution. I believe all government departments need to support it

for it to be able to achieve its intentions.



Lastly, Chair, if you will allow me, I want to make a comment on the

continuous statements made by Mr Maynier. The Defence Review was

adopted by this Parliament, and the SA Army Strategy 2020. If you

look at that document, hon member, as you were not there at the time
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                PAGE 134 of 190


we were discussing it, where I had the opportunity of being a chair

of that committee at the time, the very same issues of rejuvenation

of transformation that you are raising, were raised.



We actually said that in the Defence Force there is an Irish coffee

situation where the majority at the middle management level are

white and there is no transformation. Therefore, what we are raising

here today is not new; it is what the Minister herself in a budget

debate has acknowledged and has put a programme ... Thank you. [Time

expired.] [Applause.]



                        FOOTBALL FRIDAY CAMPAIGN



                         (Minister’s Response)



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, in support

of the statement read here by the hon Tseke on Football Friday, we

would just like to put on record that we are all in agreement that

sport has a powerful message to unite the nation. In fact, we have

seen now, as a nation, how it fosters social cohesion, especially

when our teams are excelling and where they are winning and making

us all proud.



The chairperson just informed the House that, in the disability-

friendly building of the Department of Sport and Recreation, we will

be wearing, henceforth, on a Friday the Bafana Bafana football
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 135 of 190


jersey, popularising it, and we are calling on the public and

Members of Parliament to really come forward in support of our

national team, Bafana Bafana, the coach and the technical officials

in their quest to prepare for 2010.



Let me just say this, Chairperson: Bafana Bafana made us all very

proud in the Confederations Cup. We will all remember the great

match that they had at the Royal Bafokeng Stadium in Rustenburg

where Spain only succeeded in scoring the winning goal in the last

two minutes of extended time. I’m convinced that with the support of

the nation and of this august House Bafana Bafana will do us

extremely proud in 2010. Let’s unite behind them, and let’s make

this country great again. Thank you. [Applause.]




 CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT OF PROTOCOL OF

     AMENDMENTS TO THE INTERNATIONAL HYDROGRAPHIC ORGANISATION,

   IHO, CONVENTION IN TERMS OF SECTION 231(2) OF THE CONSTITUTION



Ms H C Mgabadeli, on behalf of the chairperson of the committee,

introduced the report.



There was no debate.



Protocol of Amendments to the International Hydrographic

Organisation, IHO, Convention approved.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 136 of 190

                    IMPROVING GOVERNMENT PERFORMANCE



                        (Subject for Discussion)



Mr E M SOGONI: Chairperson, comrades, friends and colleagues, thank

you.



 If the things we face are greater and more important than the

 things we refuse to face, then at least we have begun to re-

 evaluate our world. At least we have begun to learn to see and

 live again.



 But if we refuse to see any of our awkward and deepest truths,

 then sooner or later, we are going to have to become deaf or

 blind. And then, eventually, we will have to silence our dreams

 and those of others. In other words, we die. We die in life.



These words were said by Ben Okri, and they were quoted in this

House at the beginning of this year by Minister Manuel. May I, on

behalf of the ANC, reiterate them in support of this Green Paper.

Those who have never been in power may not appreciate the need to

reflect on the past 15 years which the ANC government has traversed.



A great deal has been achieved, given the enormity of the challenges

that have faced that democratic government since 1994. As the ANC,

we view this Green Paper in three stages: the developmental state,
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                              PAGE 137 of 190


which I will later deal with; the impact assessment; and the

integrated approach towards efficient service delivery.



The developmental state has an important role to play in defining a

common national agenda and mobilising all of society to take part in

its implementation. This requires effective systems of interaction

with all social partners to exercise leadership informed by the

popular mandate derived from the electorate.



Enhancing and developing the strategic management and leadership of

government should be seen in the context of building a premise on a

people-centred and people-driven change. In particular, the state

must have, as its primary mission, the desire and commitment to

improve the quality of life of all the people, especially the poor

who constitute the majority of this country.



We do not only require strategic management and technical capacity

to translate all broad policy objectives into real and concrete

programmes and projects, but we should also ensure implementation,

monitoring, evaluation and assessment of the outcomes. The ANC has

always embraced a Public Service that responds efficiently and

effectively to the needs of the people, as reflected in the RDP

documents.



The process of democratisation requires modernising the structures

and functioning of government in pursuit of the objectives of
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                               PAGE 138 of 190


efficient, effective, economic, responsive, transparent and

accountable government. We must develop the capacity of government

for strategic interventions in social and economic development. We

must increase the capacity of the public sector to deliver an

improved and extended public service to all the people of South

Africa.



The manifesto of the ANC further states that:



 The developmental state will play a central and strategic role in

 the economy. We will ensure a more effective government; improve

 the co-ordination and planning efforts of the developmental state

 by means of a planning entity to ensure faster change. A review of

 the structure of government will be undertaken, to ensure

 effective service delivery.



The reconfiguration of Ministries did not come as an accident, but

as a result of a realisation by the ANC of the need to improve

government performance by introducing a new paradigm shift in

traditional ways of doing things. Central to the success of these

noble ideals will be the real activist parliament as envisaged by

the President – a parliament that is geared to raise tough questions

on nonperformance and failure to deliver on agreed key performance

areas and outcomes.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                               PAGE 139 of 190


This requires that Members of Parliament should be provided with

sufficient tools of the trade. It means building capacity for

committees to be able to interrogate reports, carry out oversight

and ensure that Members of Parliament put into practice the

oversight and accountability model adopted by this Parliament. It

would mean that the constituency period does not become a holiday,

but an opportunity to interact with our people.



Parliament has, over the years, enacted sufficient laws and

regulations to ensure that public servants account for their work.

Among the tools for oversight and accountability, are laws such as

the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, Act 1 of 1999; the

Municipal Finance Management Act, MFMA, Act 56 of 2003; the newly

elected Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act, Act

9 of 2009; the reports of the Public Service Commission; the

Auditor-General’s report; and National Treasury regulations.



The Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act was

established in line with section 177 of the Constitution. This Act

revolutionises the work of Parliament because it spells out

procedures on how to amend budgets. Parliament needs to urgently

empower all members to understand this Act as it impacts, in a big

way, on their work and on society as a whole.



The South African electorate is not a passive recipient of services,

as shown by the recent demonstrations. However, effective complaints
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 140 of 190


channels must be created so that they can swiftly and effectively be

addressed.



The President has already established a hotline where people can

raise their complaints directly with the Presidency. The Gauteng

legislature has legislated for a public participation and petitions

procedure. National government and other legislators can emulate

this procedure and improve on it.



One hopes that the recession we find ourselves in comes as a window

of opportunity to work more economically and effectively, and to

achieve more with fewer resources. The Auditor-General’s reports are

very important indicators of measuring the strength of our financial

capacity in keeping books and financial documents.



The Auditor-General himself has raised reservations about the

failure of senior officials to make themselves available when his

office audits departments or public entities. If the officials are

defying that office, Parliament has a duty to protect it.



We would like to welcome the evolution of auditing in our country as

the Auditor-General intends embarking on auditing not only financial

information, but performance information as well - that is, what the

money has bought; the quality of spending; value for money; and the

impact thereof. In other words, they audit the outcomes.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                               PAGE 141 of 190


The financial information that has always been audited fell short on

reporting on matters of service delivery. The issue of clean audits,

as envisaged by the Minister for Co-operative Governance and

Traditional Affairs, is not the preserve of local government, but

all stakeholders who play an oversight role on matters of spending,

service delivery and the structures that we set up to support that.



The Constitution, and especially section 154 and section 34 of the

MFMA, are very clear with respect to the responsibility that

national and provincial governments should take towards supporting

local governments.



In conclusion, all Members of Parliament need to ensure that they

get their hands dirty so that our people’s lives are changed. The

resources are there to deliver services. Working together, we can

make the issue of monitoring and evaluation succeed. I thank you.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, the purpose of this

debate is to discuss and identify those things that can be done to

improve government’s performance. This is a brave undertaking, and

if it is a serious one, it is to be welcomed.



That said, the time allocated to this debate precludes a full and

proper interrogation of the subject. Instead, I wish to address a

particular aspect of government policy in practice which I believe

to be a fundamental one.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 142 of 190


Accountability is a key constitutional principle. It is a

cornerstone of our democratic state, a duty expected of our public

representatives, and an obligation to which the executive must

yield. Yet, despite the fact that accountability is a thread woven

intricately through the fabric of our democracy, it remains ill-

defined. Its meaning has been steadily denuded by the behaviour of

progressive ANC administrations to the point where it now rings

hollow – an empty reference to an ideal no longer respected by the

executive and, outside of the opposition, no longer evoked by the

legislature.



For those people who represent this government, it is argued that

accountability means nothing more than explaining one’s actions. It

is true that this is a critical part of accountability, but it is

only a part. There is a second component to this principle, one that

holds equal weight with the requirement that public representatives

should explain their actions. There is the necessity that, should

that explanation be inadequate, it must be met with consequences.

And here I would like the indulgence of Mr Shiceka in listening very

carefully.



If consequences are overlooked in favour of explanations, the

effects for accountability specifically and democracy generally are

damaging. If a public representative does not have to fear

consequences, irrespective of the nature of their explanation, there
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 143 of 190


is no longer any reason for them to properly explain their actions

in the first place.



Accountability is reduced to a farce, and those mechanisms intended

to enforce it are made redundant. This is the ANC’s legacy. Unless

it is addressed, its effect will be to render any new initiative,

again, redundant.



We are in the process of discussing the nature and form of a new

Ministry in the Presidency, one premised on the idea that this

government understands what accountability is. That is a mistake.

The ANC’s understanding of accountability is not the same as that

set out in our Constitution.



The greatest challenge facing this administration and the Presidency

is how to change that - how to install a new and proper

understanding of accountability and its essential purpose in

ensuring good governance and a sound Public Service.



The answer, of course, is that the Presidency must lead by example.

If members of the executive fail to meet their targets – and this is

the word that hon Shiceka couldn’t quite squeeze from his lips –

they must be fired.



HON MEMBERS: Viva!
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 144 of 190


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: If public representatives steal,

they must be fired.



HON MEMBERS: Viva!



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: If members of the Public Service

are incompetent or don’t perform, they must be fired.



HON MEMBERS: Viva!



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: The South African public has a

contract with these people. It has invested its faith in their

ability to deliver, not in the pretence that they are able to

explain their failures, but on the understanding that if they do not

meet their obligations, action will be taken to correct those

shortcomings.



The Minister of Finance seems to understand this. He stated last

week that there must be consequences for failure in the same way

that there are rewards for excellent performance. This is the

government’s ultimate test: whether it can restore accountability’s

meaning and place it at the centre of best democratic practice.



The DA supports any initiative that has this objective at its heart.

Time will tell whether commitment to this principle will be matched

with the appropriate behaviour. I thank you. [Applause.]
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 145 of 190


Mr M S SHILOWA: Chairperson and hon members, thank you very much.

Let me say to the Deputy Minister of Transport that one of the

reasons why we support the need for those workers to be out there is

because we have always believed that a trade union federation must

be a home for all workers regardless of political persuasion.



We hope that Cope members who are there will be welcomed as bona

fide members of Cosatu and that they will not leave, unless they are

asked to leave that federation, which many of them have built with

their soil and toil.



We are all agreed on the need to monitor and evaluate government’s

work for a number of reasons: to see the extent to which the

government is implementing its election promises; to see the extent

to which it implements its election mandate as articulated during

the inaugural state of the nation address; to determine the impact

of such programmes in improving the lives of South Africans - many

of whom have no water, sanitation, jobs and shelter, many of whom do

not know where their next meal is going to come from, and are

worried about the quality of the education and health of their

children; to see whether the resource allocations match the

rhetoric.



To ensure effective monitoring and evaluation, you need to set

appropriate goals; goals that match the election promise, that raise

the bar rather than merely complying with the injunction.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                               PAGE 146 of 190


For example, it is one thing to speak of the creation of half a

million job opportunities between June and December; it’s another to

have a plan for attaining it. It is even more important to ensure

that these jobs are not merely about digging and closing up the same

hole, but that they add to the improvement of infrastructure.



Furthermore, such monitoring needs to deal with how a job

opportunity is calculated. For instance, if I am employed for four

weeks and later replaced over the next 11 months by 11 other people,

we are calculated as 12 people with 12 job opportunities, yet all

that happened was the amelioration of my plight for a month. Surely

this is not how the half a million job opportunities by December are

supposed to be achieved; at least I hope not.



No wonder two months after the statement was made from this very

podium, government confirmed what we have always said; that this is

but a pipe dream.



This is owing, in part, to the absence of planning appropriately,

and being more concerned with scoring brownie points with the

electorate.



Another example is the promise to reach 80% of the people who need

antiretroviral treatment therapy by 2011. To come back within two

months and say that such a goal will not be realised shows, once

more, either poor planning or thumb-sucking of figures.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 147 of 190


Antiretroviral drugs are very important; but improving the quality

of health care, access and employing more health workers, especially

clinicians, is much more important.



Furthermore, one of the challenges in monitoring and evaluating is

not only in terms of those areas that we have spoken about,

Minister, it is about the one who is being evaluated. It is one

thing to try and focus on the public servants, but another to be

able to say that the contract that the President has is with the

Ministers and Deputy Ministers. Put crudely, his contract is with

the Cabinet. We must be able to say what the measure is to that

particular Cabinet.



We need to rather focus on the real, hard issues - halving poverty

and unemployment by 2014. To what extent does that become a reality?

We can then focus on the number of jobs that need to be created -

permanent jobs, decent jobs not as a slogan, but as a commitment,

because that is how you alleviate poverty and unemployment. I thank

you. [Applause.]



Mr N SINGH: Chairperson, at the outset I want to say that the IFP

welcomes the release of this Green Paper. We hope that the public is

allowed an opportunity to make an input. We do know that Parliament

has set up an ad hoc committee to deal with some of these issues,

but we were told that we probably have to deal only with the issue
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 148 of 190


that affects planning, and not monitoring and evaluation. We will

probably need some guidance on that.



We also hope that this Green Paper will pave the way for the

accelerated delivery of basic services to the poor, and that service

delivery protests will become a thing of the past. We are having too

many service delivery protests, and rightly so, because people and

the promises that were made are not tying up together.



However, we do not think that the establishment of the Ministry will

in itself be a panacea to a whole range of serious problems impeding

government performance. These impediments relate to a wide range of

issues such as corruption, unrealistic expectations, the top-down

approach, unfilled vacancies, as well as the quality of leadership,

to mention only a few.



This morning, we received a briefing from the office of the Auditor-

General on what is going on within the SABC. It really made our hair

stand on end. Everybody on that committee wondered if the SABC had

any management at all.



The tragedy of it is that it is a post facto report. What we need,

Minister, through your Ministry is to ensure that there is on-the-

job evaluation. Whilst we have the office of the Auditor-General

that focuses on performance of financial management, we need to

consider a Chapter 9 institution that will monitor performance on a
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 149 of 190


daily basis within departments. Alternatively, there is the Public

Service Commission, PSC. Their role may need to be beefed up.



Lastly, or maybe even better, as hon Sogoni has said, members of

Parliament need to play a more active role outside of Parliament

than within Parliament where we have structured visits to see

whether projects are really happening on the ground, or whether

people are saying that they are spending R10 million and yet there

is nothing happening.



We also need to ensure that key performance indicators of heads of

department are adhered to. At the moment, there is a self-appraisal.

We need as Parliament to appraise that.



Again, what we need to consider, hon Minister – and I know it’s been

on the table for some time – is creating a Public Service academy.

All public servants should be put through a rigorous 6-month course

where they know exactly how government functions, because the kind

of reporting that comes from some of these officials leaves a lot to

be desired. If they go through these kinds of schools, then they

will know exactly what to produce.



In conclusion, Chairperson and hon Minister, what you need to create

is a war room situation where, with a touch of a button in the

Presidency, you will know what is happening in Nkandla, in

Potgietersrus or wherever. Thank you! [Time expired.]
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 150 of 190


Mrs G M BORMAN: Chairperson, hon members, the Green Paper on

Improving Government Performance, states, in the context of the

global economic downturn, which is affecting all of us, that –



  ... the pursuit of value for money is imperative if government is

  to improve service delivery standards. We must do more with less.

  Wasteful and unproductive expenditure and corruption cannot be

  afforded.



In his speech to Parliament when tabling this Paper, Minister

Chabane said:



 I will ask Parliament to apply its mind in assisting the executive

 to make sure that we spend the public funds entrusted to us in

 ways that promote clear and directed outcomes we need to develop

 this country.



Service delivery is what this ANC government is committed to. Let us

not minimise the successes that this government has already achieved

since 1994. [Interjections.] From 1994 to 2008, nearly 19 million

people received access to running water. Since 1991, 3,6 million

houses have been electrified and almost 11 million people have

access to basic sanitation. In 1996, only 3 million people, a mere

handful, had access to social grants, but today 12,5 million receive

social grants. [Applause.] Only 34 000 children had access to social

grants then, but today 8 million children younger than 14 years
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 151 of 190


receive social grants; and 3,1 million subsidised houses have been

built, including 2,7 million free houses for the poor, giving

shelter to an additional 14 million people. No mean feat, I would

say!



Raymond Ackerman, addressing the Cape Times Breakfast Club towards

the end of last year said:



 It is only when one reflects on where we were in the darkest days

 of the last century and on the poverty, lack of opportunity and

 political and economic paralysis that characterised our society,

 that we are able to appreciate the overwhelming magnitude of the

 difficulties that have faced us in building a new society from the

 tragedies of the old and recreating ourselves as a normally

 functioning and thriving economy.



[Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Ms M N Oliphant): Order, hon member! Can the

member ask a question?



Mrs G M BORMAN: Chairperson, no, I won’t take a question.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Ms M N Oliphant): She says no. Take your

seat, hon member.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 152 of 190


Mrs G M BORMAN: Chairperson, yes, we are going through difficult

times, but we will weather the storm. Ackerman continues to say:



 ... we are well equipped to weather the storm. Every period of

 storm is followed by an era of revitalisation and reinvigorated

 energy in which our ability to rise to the challenges and remake

 the world is tested. Our country has time and time again

 demonstrated its capacity to respond with innovation and

 initiative to changing economic, political and social

 circumstances – and I have no doubt we shall continue to do so.



The Freedom Charter enjoins us to:



 ... pledge ourselves to strive together, sparing neither strength

 nor courage, until the democratic changes here set out have been

 won; and to fight for these freedoms, side by side, throughout our

 lives, until we have won our liberty.



The Green Paper on Improving Government Performance refers to non-

negotiables to guide improved government performance: provision of

principled leadership underpinned by making tough decisions;

strengthening co-operation across the three spheres of government;

building partnerships between government and civil society; complete

transparency; the resolve to do more with less despite limited

resources; and developing a skilled and motivated Public Service
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 153 of 190


that takes pride in what it does and is recognised for quality

service delivery.



In a book of the early 1980s entitled In Search of Excellence, by

Peters and Waterman, they say that to be successful you need a

champion. If you want to get something done, you need a champion.



Minister Chabane, to drive this initiative you will need to identify

champions, people with proven track records in their own fields who

will be committed to driving the process and getting the desired

results. Setting targets, monitoring progress and holding public

servants accountable will require strong leadership.



A good example is the Fifa World Cup. As soon as the announcement

was made, planning was done and the targets set to run a successful

event. All along the way there were deadlines that had to be

achieved, progress was closely monitored, obstacles had to be

overcome and problems worked through together with all the partners.

As we stand now it looks as if we are just about ready to deliver on

a very successful World Cup, and I encourage us to all wear those

Bafana jerseys on a Friday - an excellent idea! [Applause.]



By securing the right to host the World Cup, Danny Jordaan and his

team showed that he was a champion. It was right, therefore, that he

should go on to steer the ship for organising the tournament proper.

We need to appoint more champions like him in all fields.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 154 of 190


Having progressive policies and the interests of the poor and

underdeveloped at heart does not necessarily translate into improved

performance. The quality and standards of service have seen a

significant decline over the past years despite the massive budget

increases there have been. In fact, there has been much squandering

and mismanagement of our scarce resources, and we acknowledge that.

So, we welcome this Green Paper. [Interjections.]



In order to be more reflective, it is also important to identify

some of the reasons that have contributed to government not

delivering quality service. Again I refer to Minister Chabane’s

speech, in which he includes, amongst other –



 ... lack of political will, inadequate leadership management

 weaknesses ... The absence of a strong performance culture and

 effective rewards and sanctions has also played a part.



The Green Paper sets out a process which requires us to convert the

inputs we have into those important outputs we want to measure. This

part of the process is about improving our efficiency; it is about

reducing the unit cost of the service we provide. It assists us with

clarifying goals, quantities and time limits that are realistic so

that we have something to monitor instead of waiting for the

Auditor-General to pick up on poor, or worse still, a lack of

delivery.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 155 of 190


Unfortunately, the N2 Gateway Housing Project is a case in point.

What started out as an exciting Breaking New Ground project has

ended up with many unhappy beneficiaries.



Our commitment, as the ANC, is to ensure delivery to the people of

South Africa, particularly the poor people, but it will have to be

quality delivery. That is why this Paper indicates that the

President, Cabinet and the rest of government would agree on 25 to

30 outcomes, based on the Medium-Term Strategic Framework.



It further introduces the concept of measuring outcomes. This

involves identification of an outcome and definition of output

measures, description of key activities and listing inputs. It

should be noted that this process is outcomes-based and therefore

the first link in the chain is outcomes. Inputs are made with clear

outcomes in mind. This will increase the capacity of government to

perform optimally and maximise its ability to deliver quality

services to the people.



Parliament, in its oversight role, will need to be vigilant. If we

fail we all fail, but if we succeed we all succeed.



In the ANC manifesto President Jacob Zuma said:



 There is still much to do to reach our goals and new challenges

 have arisen. We have to ensure that we grow the economy to meet
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 156 of 190


 the needs of our people squarely. Lasting victory over poverty and

 hunger requires the creation of decent work opportunities and

 sustainable livelihoods. Education must be at the centre of our

 efforts to improve the potential of every citizen and enable each

 one of us to play a productive role in building our nation. The

 quality of services the government will provide must be improved.



[Interjections.]



We admit, as the ANC, that the people are crying out there and we

dare not fail them. The ANC welcomes this Green Paper initiative on

improving government performance. I think I need extra time with all

this heckling! Thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order, hon members! If hon

members say something that you don’t like, just listen to that

member, because I think at the end of the day there are other

speakers who can respond to those issues. I now call upon the hon

Leader of the Opposition. [Interjections.] Oh, sorry, the hon S N

Swart.



Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, thank you for the promotion, with due

respect. [Laughter.] Chairperson, the ACDP welcomes this initial

debate on the Green Paper on Improving Government Performance. In

the Green Paper, government correctly concedes that despite massive
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 157 of 190


increases in successive budgets service quality and standards have

deceased.



I actually said ―deceased‖, but I believe the word was ―decreased‖.

This has resulted in widespread service delivery protests, as we are

all aware, and there is consequently an urgent need to improve

government performance at all levels and to reverse the trend of

growing incapacity, corruption and lack of accountability.



The stacking of priorities will be the main challenge, as government

Ministers will have to agree on 25 to 30 key outcomes in the areas

of education, health, job creation, rural development and crime and

corruption.



Now the central aspect of the outcomes performance management system

relates to performance contracts of Cabinet Ministers and MECs to

achieve deliverable and measurable outputs. As they are appointed by

a political prerogative, they clearly can and should be held

accountable and, I agree with the hon Davidson, fired for lack of

performance, unlike in the past when Cabinet members were protected.



The previous performance management system for directors-general and

public servants in general has been weak and erratic, for Ministers

nonexistent. Whilst everyone in the Public Service is supposed to

have a performance contract, many are either not in place or not

monitored properly, this particularly at municipal level.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 158 of 190


Important matters have also been left out of such contracts, such as

achieving a clean audit. How can we have the situation of directors-

general and managers being awarded bonuses where there were

qualified audits?



The Green Paper describes the process of translating government’s

mandate into a set of measures against which it can hold itself and

be held accountable. We as the ACDP welcome the initiative and will

contribute and add to the framework to ensure it is effective. I

thank you.



The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Chair, Minister Chabane, we are

already on record as endorsing this initiative, and I’d like to

reinforce that. And I would like to respect the fact that the ANC

has acknowledged that government needs to improve their performance.

For this plan to yield the desired dividends, however, you will have

to ensure certain key imperatives are observed and implemented.



The three key aspects that the DA believes are essential when it

comes to improving government’s performance, and are therefore

directly linked to the success of the Presidency’s proposals, are as

follows: firstly, appointing the right people to the right

positions; in other words, people that are fit for purpose, people

who can make Minister Shiceka’s delusions a reality.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 159 of 190


Secondly, as already mentioned by hon Davidson, the DA believes in

demanding accountability at all times, and at all levels of

responsibility. Failure should mean termination of service, not

simply no bonus, hon Shiceka, and suspension without any action. It

should mean termination of service, because they are letting the

nation down.



Thirdly, we must insist upon increased decentralisation of power to

the other two spheres of government. Regrettably, the Green Paper

does not address any of these values. This proposal does not speak

about ensuring that the best people possible are appointed to top

government positions, including the executive, irrespective of which

faction within the ruling party they support or to whom they have

demonstrated their loyalty in the past.



It also says nothing about holding public representatives,

especially Cabinet Ministers ... [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon member, is that a point

of order?



Mr G S RADEBE: Yes, Chair, I just want to check whether the hon

member is aware that there is a faction within the ruling party.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon member, is that a

question or what?
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                             PAGE 160 of 190


Mr G S RADEBE: Yes, Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): But the member did not say

that he would take a question. Can you please continue, hon member.



The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you. I hope I will receive some

injury time from people who don’t know what this debate is actually

about.



Dr S M PILLAY: Chairperson, on a point of order: I understand

English. I would like to know, by appointing people, how can you

make a delusion a reality? [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon Pillay, can you please

take your seat? [Interjections.] Continue, hon member.



Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Chair, on a point of order: May I say that if

the governing party is going to start taking these kinds of stupid

points of order when our leader is speaking, we will do the same

when their leader is speaking.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon Ellis, take your seat.

Continue, hon member.



The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: It beggars belief that people say they

understand English and then ask questions about it.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 161 of 190


The Green Paper also says nothing about holding public

representatives, especially Cabinet Ministers, accountable when they

fail to fulfil their obligations. Minister Shiceka again missed a

beat when he was asked what would happen to him if his objective is

not met, and that is precisely where the stumbling block is in this

Green Paper.



In fact, Minister Chabane, in response to my follow-up question in

the House, you deviated from what was contained in your Ministry’s

proposal, less than a week after its launch. When I asked whether

your Ministry would require government departments to release

reports and indicators related to their performance on a more

regular basis, especially whether the Department of Police would be

required to release crime statistics on a more regular basis, you

responded, and I quote:



 We will, on issues that relate to us, be able to release

 information or reports related to the work that we are going to

 do. Obviously, with regard to reports that are compiled by other

 departments or other institutions, it is within the right of those

 institutions to determine how those reports are released and at

 what point.



I ask you, hon Minister, how does a system which allows departments

to obfuscate propose to hold them to account? Minister, both this

Green Paper and the Green Paper on National Planning appear to be
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 162 of 190


intent on entrenching the centralisation of power in the national

government and, more specifically, in the Presidency.



Among other things, the proposal that a delivery unit in the

Presidency can intervene in any municipality and province could

easily become a threat to constitutional democracy and the autonomy

of the three spheres of government. In addition, I would like to add

that it is quite clear that the Presidency ...



Mr M L FRANSMAN: Chair, will the hon member take a question?



The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: No, Madam Chair, I have no time.



In addition, I would like to add that it is quite clear that the

Presidency itself has some difficulty in applying the above-

mentioned imperatives. There was debate around the nomination letter

of the Chief Justice and the lack of action taken against those

staff who sent it, late and backdated, yet no action was taken

against those people - no accountability whatsoever.



Furthermore, the Presidency is certainly not appointing the best

people for the job. Instead, cadre deployment has defined the recent

appointments of Jessie Duarte, Vusi Mona, and Ayanda Ndlodlo.

The latest chaos in the establishment of the hotline and the fact

that R2,3 million is unaccounted for in the late establishment of

that hotline, is indicative of the fact that even the Presidency is
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 163 of 190


not prepared to hold people to account according to the very best

plans and intentions.



To redirect complaints from the public back to the sphere of

government where the complaint arises is oxymoronic, because it is

precisely those spheres of government where the people have been

frustrated. Minister, it is like telling a complainant who is laying

a charge of rape to go and complain to the rapist before they lay a

charge with the police. It is simply unacceptable.



In conclusion, I’d like to emphasise that the DA believes that

unless the aforementioned issues are seriously addressed, this plan

on improving government’s performance will remain just a plan.



Minister, I trust that you will monitor Minister Shiceka’s promises

that he made in the House today and evaluate them. If you don’t, I

hope Parliament will. If Parliament doesn’t, the DA will. [Time

expired.] [Applause.]



Prof B TUROK: I want to raise a point of order, Chairperson. The

Constitution says ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon member, the member has

left the podium.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 164 of 190


Prof B TUROK: I rose when he was still there. Can we ask him to come

back? [Interjections.] But I am going to ask you to rule, Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon member, can you please

take your seat?



Prof B TUROK: Chair, I would like to ask you to rule on a point of

order.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon member, I can’t rule on

the member when he is already sitting in his seat.



Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Chair, may I seriously address you on an issue?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon Mike Ellis, just take

your seat.



Mr M J ELLIS: But, Madam Chair, this is a very important matter.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon Mike Ellis, just take

your seat.



Mr M J ELLIS: Chair, may I ask you why you will not allow me to

address you, Madam?
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 165 of 190


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): You are addressing me on

what? The member who was speaking is now in his seat. So I have just

called the next hon member – he has not even started. Can you please

take your seat, hon Ellis? Hon Fransman.



Mr M L FRANSMAN: Hon Chairperson ... [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order, please!



Mr M L FRANSMAN: Chairperson, I would really like to paraphrase my

comments here today, and then I am going to leave my speech, because

I think I must deal with the last speaker.



I want to paraphrase my comments with reference to a case study by

the United Nations Development Programme, UNDP, called Money and

Mambas – Listening to the People.



Our efforts over the past 15 years of democracy have been devoted to

improving the lives of all our people. I cite the UNDP reference not

because of the technical detail of the monitoring and evaluation

process, but I think as I have seen in the Green Paper, Minister,

for the insight that your strategy – the plan of government – is

providing to deal with the realities of while we are doing

monitoring and evaluation also to look at how the people are being

engaged in that monitoring and evaluation, because that will be

critical.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 166 of 190


At the outset I therefore want to acknowledge the Minister’s role.

He is going to be a bold and courageous leadership champion in this

programme, because it is 15 years after our democracy and we have

identified that as a strategic intervention required, both at

Polokwane as well as in the state of the nation address.



But let me deal with the opposition speakers here. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order, please!



Mr M L FRANSMAN: We have heard about accountability. We have heard

about monitoring, we have heard about performance. We have listened

earlier to what the ANC speakers were saying. The ANC speakers were

in fact quite self-critical as to how we have moved as the state 15

years into our democracy. All we have heard here from the opposition

was raising issue with the ANC. Now let’s look at their track

record. [Interjections.]



It was, in fact, the ANC that introduced, via Parliament, the Public

Finance Management Act. It was, in fact, the ANC that introduced the

Constitution. It was the ANC that introduced the mechanisms for

delivery. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order, please! Order, hon

members! Continue, hon member.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 167 of 190


Mr M L FRANSMAN: But we are saying that we now need to look at the

further advancement of a national democratic revolution. But let me

deal with the individuals, the hon members who were so critical.

Let’s do an accountability test, Minister, on where they are

governing. Let’s do a performance analysis on where they are

governing. In fact, the DA has an executive government in the

Western Cape, and 7 out of the 11 are white. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order, please!



Mr M L FRANSMAN: We have just heard the hon Leader of the Opposition

speak about ―fit for purpose‖. Members, what is that? What do we

define as ―fit for purpose‖. [Interjections.] Let me tell you what

the DA defines it as. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order, hon members! Order,

please!



Mr M L FRANSMAN: ―Fit for purpose‖, hon Chairperson, is the fact

that in the education department in the Western Cape there was a

black male, a very competent male, and he was replaced not so long

ago by a white individual. ―Fit for purpose‖ – this is what you said

– in terms of the DA’s accountability, means replacing a black

female that was in fact also part of the disability sector, and

replacing her with a white male. [Interjections.]
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 168 of 190


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order, hon members!



Mr M L FRANSMAN: ―Fit for purpose‖ means replacing a black male, not

so long ago, in the last three months, in public works with a white

male. ―Fit for purpose‖ means replacing a black female director-

general with a white male director-general. That is what ―fit for

purpose‖ is. In fact, I also want to say … [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order, hon members! Hon

member, is that a point of order?



Mr R A P TROLLIP: On a point of order: The hon member is misleading

the House. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order, members!



Mr R A P TROLLIP: An hon member of the ANC stood here this afternoon

to tell this House that when another party comes to government, they

will get rid of those people and replace them with their appointees.

[Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon member, can you please

take your seat? Continue, hon member.



Mr M L FRANSMAN: Hon Chairperson, that is exactly the point. That is

what I am saying ―fit for purpose‖ means. With regard to their
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 169 of 190


accountability and their performance assessment, it is to get rid of

black people in the context of employment equity. [Interjections.]

That is what we have seen in the Western Cape where they are

governing. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order, hon member!

[Interjections.] Order, please!



Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Chair, I want to say, on a point of order, that

I am shocked that you have allowed this debate to take this racial

overtone that it has taken now … [Interjections.] ... and I urge you

to control the speaker at the podium and to prevent this from

happening. This is bad for Parliament. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order, hon member!

[Interjections.] Order, please! You may continue, hon member.



Mr M L FRANSMAN: Hon Chairperson, I have unpacked what ―fit for

purpose‖ means in the context of the DA, that is what I have done.

Can I also say service delivery in terms of performance assessment

means, and I want to say to the Minister for Co-operative Governance

and Traditional Affiars, the people’s water has been cut in the

Western Cape … [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order, hon member! Is that

a point of order?
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                               PAGE 170 of 190


Mr M MNQASELA: Yes, it is a point of order. The member seems to

forget that this is not the Western Cape legislature.

[Interjections.] This is the national legislature.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): What is your point of

order, hon member? [Interjections.]



Mr M MNQASELA: The hon member Fransman is deliberately misleading

this House. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order, hon members! Hon

member, can you please take your seat.



Mr M MNQASELA: He is doing it for the second time in less than two

weeks, Madam Chair.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon member, can you please

take your seat? Hon members, just take your seats, please. Hon

members, the hon member that is at the podium right now is giving

his own political view; therefore, we must allow that person to give

his own political view. You may continue, hon member.



Mr M L FRANSMAN: Hon Chairperson, it is, in fact, the analysis

around performance management in governance …
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 171 of 190


Mr C T FROLICK: Madam Chair, is it parliamentary for the member from

the other side of the House to say the member is deliberately

misleading the House? [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon member, please, let us

not disturb the member. Hon Fransman, can you please continue?



Mr M L FRANSMAN: Can I also say that the point that the Leader of

the Opposition made, just before he ended, about the constitutional

democracy, is an interesting point. We must analyse it. Is there a

strategy to say we do not want to be part of a national agenda in

terms of the various spheres of governance – national, provincial

and local – performance-managed?



In fact, it is interesting that we hear the premier speaking about

something else in the national Cabinet engagements, and then we are

seeing something different in the space here. And therefore, what is

taking place?



Also, I want to say to hon member Shilowa – who has just left –

speaking about accountability here, we do know that there is much to

be answered for when it comes to accountability and delivery in

Gauteng.



Let me go back, therefore, to say that as the ANC we are very

supportive of this debate, and we believe that the debate should be
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 172 of 190


dealing with the real issues. And the real issues for us currently

involve the bureaucracy.



As we are moving forward, hon Minister, as you roll out the

monitoring and evaluation in government, will the bureaucracy and

the state machinery align themselves into that space? That is

something that I believe needs a fundamental reskilling. So that is

one area.



Another area is in fact dealing with what we define as the activist

role of Parliament. As the government will be moving into

communities, as an activist Parliament, we will have to be able to

position ourselves also to make sure that the oversight role of

monitoring, the oversight role of performance and the oversight role

of implementation are being dealt with.



The second-last point: There is a notion that we are dealing a lot

with surveys. So we can easily say what the percentage of unemployed

people in this country is, we can talk about the percentage of poor

people in this country. But we don’t always know, Minister, who they

are, where they are staying, what levels of skills they have, what

delivery opportunities are there, and what I would suggest ...

[Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order, hon members!
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 173 of 190


Mr M L FRANSMAN: What I would suggest, therefore, in terms of some

of the critical engagement, is to include some of the ground data

analysis also in the national survey analysis that has been

conducted.



The final point, therefore, is: Let’s call on the public and let’s

call on the administration in government – national, provincial and

local – and let’s call on all the political parties to support this

process. Let’s not underplay the value of this process of planning,

monitoring and evaluation. Minister, with that, we support your

process. [Applause.]



Mr C T FROLICK: Hon Chairperson, may we respectfully request from

the side of the ANC that you do in fact make a ruling on the

accusation that the hon member who has just left the podium

deliberately misled the House?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon member, I was going to

deal with that. Hon members, there are rules and conventions of this

House. And I just want to appeal to all political parties to try and

teach their members about the language that is used in this House,

to teach them about the Rules of this House, including the

conventions of this House. One of the conventions of this House is

that a member cannot say that another member is deliberately

misleading the House. Therefore, I want to appeal to the hon member

to withdraw that.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                               PAGE 174 of 190


Mr M MNQASELA: Hon Chairperson, with all due respect, I will not do

so. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon member, I will repeat:

There are conventions and Rules in this House, and therefore, as the

person who is presiding, I want you to withdraw ―deliberately

misleading the House‖.



Mr M MNQASELA: Chairperson, I find it quite disturbing that a member

would stand here ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon member, I said, just

withdraw ―deliberately misleading the House‖.



Mr M MNQASELA: Well, in that case, Chair ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Not ―in that case‖. Don’t

withdraw based on reservations. I am saying that there are Rules and

conventions in this House. Therefore you must withdraw: the legotla

part.



Mr M MNQASELA: Chairperson, I withdraw it.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Thank you, hon member.

[Applause.] Order, hon members. I now call on the hon Minister in

the Presidency. Hon Minister. [Interjections.] Order, please!
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 175 of 190


The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY – PERFORMANCE MONITORING, EVALUATION

AND ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, hon Ministers,

Deputy Ministers and members, I would like to thank members for the

support they have shown to this debate and for the issues raised

related to the contents of the Green Paper. Members have raised very

important points and we take those points as contributions to the

process of strengthening what we are trying to do.



We would like to admit that we don’t have all the wisdom and

knowledge for the work we need to perform and we believe that our

strength lies in the multitude of brains and experience which is

available in the country as a whole. Therefore, the comments that

have been made by the Members of Parliament will make a great

contribution to improving both the contents of the paper and the

effectiveness of the work which we will perform. I would like to

allude to just a few issues that might have not been raised now but

were raised before.



Firstly, we have received a lot of comments from interested parties

– mostly in writing – which have been very valuable for us to

improve the content of the paper and also the work which we must do.



There is a question that has been asked in the past about how we

will relate to the audit between ourselves and the Auditor-General.

I would like to add the Public Protector because some of the issues
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 176 of 190


the Public Protector will deal with are complaints from the public

with regard to the services which we have to deliver.



I would like to announce that we have agreed with the Auditor-

General that there will be a quarterly meeting between our office

and the Auditor-General. We will look at the issues which arise from

the work they do with the various institutions and government. If

there are necessary interventions that we need to make, these will

be made even before the Auditor-General presents the report.



As I have said, it will include other institutions and the Public

Protector. We are here to have a discussion with the Standing

Committee on Public Accounts in Parliament and the legislatures, to

understand how we are going to interface and how our work is going

to enhance the accountability role which Parliament has to play and

vice versa.



Other comments which we have received, in terms of the contents of

the paper, include that we did not pay specific attention to the

international experiences and to the work which is being done by

various international organisations with regard to monitoring and

evaluation. We have also not paid attention to setting proper

benchmarks related to the international experience in order for our

work and that of the country also to be benchmarked within the

international experience. It is an area we need to strengthen, to

ensure that we at least accommodate that view.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 177 of 190


The other area which has been raised is how we are going to work

with the institutions. We have realised that, in the Green Paper, we

did not go into detail with regard to how we are going to work with

other institutions in the country. We have started discussions with

universities to see what role they can play and what expertise we

can tap from them as well as what amount of work and service they

can do to assist us to undertake our work. We are doing so and

consulting in that manner because we believe that the work we must

do will be very valuable, not only for the Presidency but for all

South Africans.



I understand the comments of the members of both the ruling party

and the opposition parties, that all of us are committed to seeing

an improvement in government performance. We all want to ensure that

the priorities and services are delivered and all of us as members

agreed that, together, we are going to strengthen those areas that

need to be delivered.



I know that as time goes on, however, there will be a disagreement,

particularly on one area of how we interpret accountability and

especially with regard to various people who are supposed to execute

other responsibilities. I hope that even in that area, all of us

will be united, to see the improvement of the work we are supposed

to do as government and to deliver a better service and quality of

service to the communities that we serve.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 178 of 190


An issue has been raised about whether we should not start in the

Western Cape. I would like to warn against using the institution of

performance and management, whether to settle political scores or to

make a political point. It is very important for us to be aware that

we have taken much care, from the beginning, to ensure that the work

we do is aimed at improving the performance of government

everywhere.



I can confirm that we had a number of discussions with various

politicians in the Western Cape, including the premier, with regard

to this work, both multilaterally and bilaterally. We have not seen

any hostility with regard to the work we must do. I would like to

confirm that at least for now, until we start to work, we should not

judge people by where they stand but by what is supposed to happen.



There is an issue that has been raised with regard to the extent to

which we want to provide information which will be available. We

have said at the beginning when we have started that the work which

we do is not underground, but open. Our performance targets are the

ones which will be public, the ones which will be agreed to and

which are supposed to be dealt with.



One member said that we should not set unrealistic targets. It is

not our intention to set unrealistic targets. We think we will set

targets jointly with the stakeholders who will be involved so that
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                            PAGE 179 of 190


all of us commit ourselves to deliver a better service to our

people.



A warning sign has been given with regard to what is called a

delivery unit. The Green Paper is very clear and deliberate that a

delivery unit is an intervention strategy for those who need

assistance with regard to several areas where they need additional

capacity, in order to deliver the type of service or to resolve a

particular problem which might arise. We have said, even in the

paper, it will be done in partnership and agreement.



Those who are involved in the line function and those spheres of

government that will be responsible for their function, must

understand that we are just providing support to ensure that a

particular service is delivered properly or that a particular

problem is resolved. It is not for us to take over the

responsibility to deal with those issues.



One of the issues that have been raised relates to our approach to

the hotline. We have said in the Green Paper that we are not a line

function department and where problems arise we are not going to

take over those functions. Our responsibility is to make sure that

things are being done properly and efficiently and as fast as

expected by the communities. Therefore, if issues are raised within

the context of the hotline or within the context of any mechanism or

any medium which will be used to interact with society, it is the
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                               PAGE 180 of 190


responsibility of those departments or institutions which have to

perform those functions.



That is why we have established a forum for ourselves and the

various departments and the provinces. We will then be able to check

and get people to follow up, to ensure that those things are

attended to and responses are provided to the society out there.



We are currently busy with discussions with the parastatals and

state-owned institutions. Sometimes it will probably help us to deal

with some of the questions which you have raised such as how people

will get bonuses, on the one hand, when the state institution is

losing money on the other. Hopefully, we will be able to address

those types of issues or find solutions which we believe will be

beneficial not only to government, but also to society in general.



Finally, I would like to thank members for their contributions and

would like to welcome those who have inputs in writing to bring them

to us so that we can incorporate them into our work, as we finalise

the work. We believe that we will continue to improve the mechanisms

we are putting in place. It is not the final bite. We will continue

to improve as we get experience and more information on how we need

to conduct our work. I thank you. [Applause.]



Debate concluded.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                                PAGE 181 of 190


The House adjourned at 18:40

                                           __________



                 ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS



                                    FRIDAY, 18 SEPTEMBER 2009



TABLINGS



National Assembly and National Council of Provinces



1.   The Minister of Arts and Culture



     (a)   Report and Financial Statements of the National Library of South Africa for 2008-2009,

           including the Report of the Auditor-General on the financial Statements and Performance

           Information for 2008-2009 [RP 215-2009].



COMMITTEE REPORTS


National Assembly


Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the appointment of

persons to the South African Human Rights Commission in terms of section 193(5) of the

Constitution, 1996, dated 17 September 2009
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                                  PAGE 182 of 190


The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development having considered the

appointment of persons to the South African Human Rights Commission reports as follows (the

African Christian Democratic Party (ACDP), Democratic Alliance (DA), and Congress of the People

(COPE) abstaining):



1.1.    The Committee has been tasked by the National Assembly with making recommendations on

        the names of persons to fill the vacancies that have arisen in the South African Human Rights

        Commission (SAHRC). The terms of office of five of the commissioners, one of whom is

        appointed part-time, will expire at the end of September 2009.



1.2.    Chapter 9 of the Constitution establishes the SAHRC as a State Institution Supporting

        Constitutional Democracy. It must promote respect for human rights and a culture of human

        rights; promote the protection, development and attainment of human rights; and monitor and

        assess the observance of human rights in South Africa.



1.3.    In accordance with section 193 of the Constitution, members of the SAHRC must be men and

        women who are:

       South African citizens;

       Fit and proper to hold the particular office; and

       Comply with any other requirements prescribed by national legislation.

1.4.    Advertisements calling for nominations were placed in both national and regional newspapers

        in May 2009. The closing date for these nominations was 8 May 2009. A number of

        nominations were received. The Committee then decided to reopen the nomination process.

        This is because the National Assembly may decide to nominate more than 5 Commissioners

        and may also decide to nominate part-time as well as full-time Commissioners. Further
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                                   PAGE 183 of 190


        advertisements were placed in national and regional newspapers, with 4 September 2009 as the

        closing date.



1.5.    A total of 217 nominations were received. The Committee deliberated and 32 nominees were

        shortlisted for interviews.



1.6.    The interviews were held at Parliament from 14 to 17 September 2009. Two nominees

        withdrew, and three more were unavailable during the period set aside for the interviews. In

        total, 27 nominees were interviewed.



1.7.    After deliberating, the Committee recommends that the National Assembly consider the

        following persons to fill the position of Commissioners on the SAHRC:



       Ms L Mokate (Full-time)

       Adv BJ Malatji (Full-time)

       Adv LM Mushwana (Full-time)

       Adv LKB Mpumlwana (Full-time)

       Ms J Love (Part-time)

       Dr D Titus (Part-time)



1.8.    The Committee was impressed with the calibre of those it interviewed. It would have liked to

        have recommended the appointment of more Commissioners but was unable to do so because

        of funding constraints on the part of the SAHRC. It intends to engage with Government for

        additional funds to appoint more Commissioners.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                                  PAGE 184 of 190


1.9.    The Committee would like to make greater use of the expertise that is available in the field of

        human rights. It agreed to establish a panel of human rights experts from those shortlisted to

        advise the Committee.

1.10. The Committee wishes to thank all those nominated and their nominees for putting their names

        forward. It is especially appreciative of those who made themselves available for the

        interviews.



Report to be considered



                                    MONDAY, 21 SEPTEMBER 2009



TABLINGS



National Assembly and National Council of Provinces



1.     The Minister in The Presidency: Performance Monitoring and Evaluation



       (a) Report and Financial Statements of the International Marketing Council (IMC) for 2008-

          2009, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and

          Performance Information for 2008-2009 [RP 134-2009].



2.     The Minister of Health
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                              PAGE 185 of 190


     (a) Report and Financial Statements of the Council for Medical Schemes for 2008-2009,

        including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance

        Information for 2008-2009 [RP 67-2009].



     (b) Report and Financial Statements of the National Health Laboratory Service for 2008-2009,

        including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and

        Performance Information for 2008-2009.

3.   The Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform



     (a) Report and Financial Statements of the Ingonyama Trust Board for 2008-2009, including the

        Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for

        2008-2009 [RP 172-2009].



4.   The Minister of Trade and Industry



     (a) Report and Financial Statements of the Technology and Human Resources for Industry

        Programme (THRIP) for 2008-2009, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the

        Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2008-2009.



5.   The Minister of Mining



     (a) Report and Financial Statements of the Council for Geoscience (CGS) for 2008-2009,

        including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance

        Information for 2008-2009 [RP 55-2009].
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                                 PAGE 186 of 190


6.   The Minister of Water and Environmental Affairs



     (a) Report and Financial Statements of the Trans-Caledon Tunnel Authority (TCTA) for 2008-

           2009, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and

           Performance Information for 2008-2009.



7.   The Minister of Sport and Recreation



     (a) Report and Financial Statements of the South African Drug-Free Sport for 2008-2009,

           including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2008-2009 [RP

           99-2008].



                                    TUESDAY, 22 SEPTEMBER 2009



ANNOUNCEMENTS



National Assembly



The Speaker



1.   Membership of Committees


     (1)      The following members have been appointed to the Subcommittee on Review of the

              National Assembly Rules in accordance with the composition agreed by the Rules

              Committee on 22 May 2009 and confirmed by the House on 26 May 2009:
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                               PAGE 187 of 190


         African National Congress

         Chohan, F I

         Jeffery, J H

         Landers, L T

         Martins, B A D

         Thabete, E

         Thomson, B

         Tshwete, P

         Democratic Alliance

         Ellis, M J

         Pretorius, P J C



         Congress of the People

         Mashiane, L M



         Inkatha Freedom Party

         Oriani-Ambrosini, M G

         Van der Merwe, J H (alternate)



         Smaller parties

         Mulder, C P (FF Plus)

         Vacant



   (2)   Adv M T Masutha (ANC) was appointed as chairperson of the Subcommittee on Review

         of the National Assembly Rules in terms of Rule 173.
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                               PAGE 188 of 190


TABLINGS



National Assembly and National Council of Provinces



1.   The Speaker and the Chairperson



     (a)   Report of the Auditor-General on an investigation at the South African Broadcasting

           Corporation [RP 237-2009].



2.   The Minister in The Presidency: Performance Monitoring and

     Evaluation



     (a)   Green Paper on Improving Government Performance: Our Approach [RP 223-2009].



           Please note: The above report is an amendment of the entry of item 1 under Tablings

           published on page 732 of the Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports of 8

           September 2009.



3.   The Minister of Police



     (a)   Report and Financial Statements of Vote 22 – Department of Safety and Security for 2008-

           2009, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and

           Performance Information of Vote 22 for 2008-2009 [RP 204-2009].



4.   The Minister of Science and Technology
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                               PAGE 189 of 190


     (a)   Report and Financial Statements of the South African National Energy Research Institute

           (Pty) Ltd for 2008-2009, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial

           Statements and Performance Information for 2008-2009.

     (b)   Report and Financial Statements of the South African Council for Natural Scientific

           Professions for 2008-2009, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the

           Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2008-2009.



     (c)   Report and Financial Statements of the Human Sciences Research Council (HSRC) for

           2008-2009, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and

           Performance Information for 2008-2009 [RP 184-2009].



     (d)   Report and Financial Statements of the Africa Institute of South Africa for 2008-2009,

           including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance

           Information for 2008-2009.



     (e)   Report and Financial Statements of the National Advisory Council on Innovation for 2008-

           2009.



5.   The Minister of Water and Environmental Affairs



     (a)   Report and Financial Statements of the Water Research Commission for 2008-2009,

           including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance

           Information for 2008-2009 [RP 130-2009].



6.   The Minister for Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs
22 SEPTEMBER 2009                                               PAGE 190 of 190


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Municipal Demarcation Board for 2008-2009,

             including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and

             Performance Information for 2008-2009 [RP 207-2009].



7.   The Minister of Finance



     (a)   Report and Financial Statements of the Corporation for Public Deposits for 2008-2009,

           including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and

           Performance Information for 2008-2009.



     (b)   Report and Financial Statements of the Financial Services Board for 2008-2009, including

           the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance

           Information for 2008-2009 [RP 201-2009].

				
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