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 1                      BEFORE THE WASHINGTON STATE

 2             UTILITIES AND TRANSPORTATION COMMISSION

 3     In the Matter of Determining  )
       the Proper Carrier            )     DOCKET NO. TV-061326
 4     Classification of             )
                                     )
 5     T&S TRANSPORTATION &          )     Volume I
       INSTALLATION, INC.            )     Pages 1 to 50
 6     ______________________________)

 7

 8                A hearing in the above matter was held on

 9     January 5, 2007, from 1:15 p.m to 2:50 p.m., at 800

10     Fifth Avenue, 20th Floor, Olympic Room, Seattle,

11     Washington, before Administrative Law Judge THEODORA

12     MACE.

13

14                The parties were present as follows:

15                THE COMMISSION, by JENNIFER
       CAMERON-RULKOWSKI, Assistant Attorney General, 1400
16     South Evergreen Park Drive Southwest, Post Office Box
       40128, Olympia, Washington 98504, Telephone (360)
17     664-1186, Fax (360) 586-5522, E-Mail
       jcameron@wutc.wa.gov.
18
                  T&S TRANSPORTATION, by RAY TANNER, President,
19     11527 Cyrus Way, Mukilteo, Washington 98275, Telephone
       (425) 349-3922, Fax (425) 349-3734, E-mail
20     ray@t&strans.net.

21

22

23

24     Joan E. Kinn, CCR, RPR

25     Court Reporter
0002

 1     --------------------------------------------------------

 2                       INDEX OF EXAMINATION

 3     --------------------------------------------------------

 4     WITNESS:                                          PAGE:

 5                BETTY YOUNG

 6     Direct Examination by Ms. Cameron-Rulkowski        7

 7     Cross-Examination by Mr. Tanner                   20

 8     Examination by Judge Mace                         23

 9                RAY TANNER

10     Direct Testimony of Mr. Tanner                    24

11     Examination by Judge Mace                         29

12     Cross-Examination by Ms. Cameron-Rulkowski        32

13     Examination by Judge Mace                         38

14     Cross-Examination by Ms. Cameron-Rulkowski        39

15     Examination by Judge Mace                         40

16     Redirect Testimony of Mr. Tanner                  41

17     Recross-Examination by Ms. Cameron-Rulkowski      44

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
0003

 1     --------------------------------------------------------

 2                         INDEX OF EXHIBITS

 3     --------------------------------------------------------

 4

 5     EXHIBIT:                      MARKED:          ADMITTED:

 6                BETTY YOUNG

 7        1                            6                 23

 8        2                            6                 23

 9        3                            6                 23

10        4                            6                 23

11        5                            6                 23

12        6                            6                 23

13        7                            6                 23

14        8                            6                 23

15        9                            6                 23

16       10                            6                 23

17       11                            6                 23

18       12                            7                 23

19       13                            7                 23

20                RAY TANNER

21       14                           28                 30

22       15                           28                 30

23       16                           28                 30

24

25
0004

 1                         P R O C E E D I N G S

 2                   JUDGE MACE:   Let's be on the record in the

 3     Matter of Determining the Proper Carrier Classification

 4     of T&S Transportation & Installation, Inc.        This is

 5     Docket TV-061326.     This is a hearing related to

 6     classification that is being held at 800 Fifth Avenue in

 7     downtown Seattle at the offices of the Attorney General

 8     of the State of Washington.      My name is Theodora Mace, I

 9     am the Administrative Law Judge who has been assigned to

10     this case.     We have here a representative from Staff and

11     from the Company, and I would like to have oral

12     appearances now, and I'm going to ask you each to give

13     your full name, who you represent, address, phone, fax,

14     and E-mail.

15                   MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:      Present on behalf of

16     Commission Staff is Jennifer Cameron-Rulkowski, the

17     address is 1400 South Evergreen Park Drive Southwest,

18     Olympia, Washington 98504-7250, telephone is (360)

19     664-1186, fax is (360) 586-5522, E-mail is

20     jcameron@wutc.wa.gov.

21                   JUDGE MACE:   Mr. Tanner.

22                   MR. TANNER:   I'm Ray Tanner, I'm the

23     President of T&S Transportation, our physical address is

24     11527 Cyrus, that's C-Y-R-U-S, Way, Mukilteo, Washington

25     98275, our phone number is (425) 349-3922, my E-mail is
0005

 1     ray@t&strans.net.

 2                 JUDGE MACE:   And do you have a fax number?

 3                 MR. TANNER:   Oh, yes, I'm sorry, fax is (425)

 4     349-3734.

 5                 JUDGE MACE:   All right, thank you.

 6                 Off the record prior to announcing the case I

 7     advised the parties what our general procedure will be

 8     today, and the first item that we will go ahead with is

 9     the presentation of Staff's case.    But before I do that,

10     is there anything of a preliminary nature that we need

11     to address before we go ahead?

12                 MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   Yes, Your Honor, I

13     would like to bring up that the burden of proof does

14     rest with the carrier under RCW 81.04.510.

15                 JUDGE MACE:   Are you objecting to going first

16     to present the case?

17                 MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   Not at all, Your

18     Honor.

19                 JUDGE MACE:   Okay.

20                 MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   Not at all.

21                 JUDGE MACE:   Then I will let you proceed if

22     there's nothing else.

23                 MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   Thank you, Your

24     Honor.

25                 I will be examining Ms. Betty Young, if you
0006

 1     would like to step over.

 2

 3                (The following exhibits were identified in

 4     conjunction with the testimony of BETTY YOUNG.)

 5

 6               Exhibit 1 - Staff Investigation Into the

 7     Business Practices of T&S Transportation & Installation,

 8     Inc., Docket No. TV-061326, dated October, 2006

 9     ("investigation report")

10               Exhibit 2 - Notice of impending insurance

11     cancellation ("cite letter")

12               Exhibit 3 - Suspension order

13               Exhibit 4 - Cancellation order

14               Exhibit 5 - Declaration of Tina Leipski

15               Exhibit 6 - Consumer affairs complaint file

16     for Siayngco

17               Exhibit 7 - Declaration of Ms. Jennifer

18     Go-Siayngco and Mr. Ariel Norman Siayngco

19               Exhibit 8 - Estimate and bill of lading

20     associated with Siayngco move

21               Exhibit 9 - Payment documentation associated

22     with Siayngco move

23               Exhibit 10 - Consumer affairs complaint file

24     for Joel James

25               Exhibit 11 - Printout of electronically
0007

 1     transmitted Declaration of Joel James

 2                  Exhibit 12 - Invoice associated with James

 3     move

 4                  Exhibit 13 - Declaration of Process Server

 5

 6     Whereupon,

 7                                BETTY YOUNG,

 8     having been first duly sworn, was called as a witness

 9     herein and was examined and testified as follows:

10

11                  D I R E C T      E X A M I N A T I O N

12     BY MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:

13            Q.     Good afternoon.

14            A.     Good afternoon.

15            Q.     Please state your name.

16            A.     My name is Betty, that's B-E-T-T-Y, last name

17     Young, Y-O-U-N-G.

18            Q.     Please state the name of your employer.

19            A.     It is the Washington Utilities and

20     Transportation Commission.

21            Q.     In what position are you employed with the

22     Commission?

23            A.     I am a compliance specialist with the

24     transportation safety division of the Commission.

25            Q.     Please briefly describe your responsibilities
0008

 1     as they pertain to this matter.

 2          A.      I conduct investigations into the business

 3     practices of regulated utility and transportation

 4     companies.     As part of those duties, I investigate

 5     companies that appear to be operating as transportation

 6     companies without the appropriate permit.

 7          Q.      Did you conduct such an investigation of T&S?

 8          A.      I did, and the investigation is documented in

 9     a report that I authored titled Staff Investigation into

10     the Business Practices of T&S Transportation &

11     Installation, Inc., dated October 2006.

12          Q.      Please turn to the first exhibit.   I'm going

13     to refer to this as Exhibit Number 1.     Is Exhibit Number

14     1 a true and correct copy of the investigation report?

15          A.      Yes.

16                  MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   At this time I would

17     like to move for the admission of Exhibit Number 1.

18                  JUDGE MACE:   I'm going to suggest that you go

19     through the exhibits and then move for their admission

20     at one time.

21                  MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   At the end?

22                  JUDGE MACE:   Yes.

23     BY MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI.

24          Q.      And what will your testimony cover this

25     morning?
0009

 1           A.      My testimony --

 2           Q.      I'm sorry, what will your testimony cover

 3     this afternoon?

 4           A.      My testimony will cover the Commission's

 5     cancellation of the authority of T&S Transportation &

 6     Installation to operate as a household goods carrier

 7     transporting household goods for compensation on the

 8     public highways of the state of Washington and the

 9     Company's continued operations without the required

10     permit.

11           Q.      Thank you.   And what statute or rule do you

12     understand to be at issue?

13           A.      It's my understanding that RCW 81.80.070,

14     which provides that no common carrier shall operate for

15     the transportation of property for compensation in this

16     state without first obtaining a Commission permit to do

17     so.

18           Q.      Thank you.

19                   And now let's discuss T&S Transportation's

20     lack of operating authority.      Does T&S currently hold

21     Commission authority to transport household goods in

22     Washington?

23           A.      No.

24           Q.      Did T&S ever have such authority?

25           A.      Yes.
0010

 1          Q.      When did T&S lose the authority to transport

 2     household goods in Washington?

 3          A.      T&S lost the authority to transport those

 4     goods when the Commission canceled the Company's permit

 5     on April 3rd, 2006, for failure to file proof of the

 6     required insurance.

 7          Q.      Please explain briefly what obligations

 8     household goods carriers have with regard to filing

 9     proof of insurance with the Commission.

10          A.      Household goods carriers must maintain proof

11     of liability and property damage insurance on file with

12     the Commission as required in RCW 81.80.190.     This is

13     known as the uniform motor carrier certificate of

14     insurance or Form E.    If the Commission receives

15     information from a company's insurance carrier

16     indicating that the insurance will be canceled, this is

17     called a Form K, the Company has 30 days in which to

18     provide the Commission with proof of a new insurance

19     coverage, or the Commission suspends the operating

20     authority.

21          Q.      How is the company informed of an insurance

22     cancellation and the need to file new proof of insurance

23     with the Commission?

24          A.      Once the Commission's licensing services

25     section receives a Form K or the notice of cancellation
0011

 1     from the carrier's insurance company, the licensing

 2     services staff mails a notice to the company, that is

 3     the household goods carrier, stating that the Commission

 4     received such notification of cancellation.   The notice

 5     advises the Company of the specific date by which the

 6     Commission must receive proof of insurance, and if the

 7     Commission does not receive such proof by then, it will

 8     suspend the company's operating authority.

 9          Q.    Did the Commission send such a notice to T&S?

10          A.    Yes, it did.

11          Q.    Please turn to Exhibit Number 2.   Is Exhibit

12     2 a true and correct copy of the notice concerning

13     impending insurance cancellation, also referred to as

14     the cite letter?

15          A.    Yes.

16          Q.    And the date that is listed there, March 4,

17     2006, is that the date the carrier's liability insurance

18     expired?

19          A.    Yes.

20          Q.    What additional information does the

21     Commission send to the company?

22          A.    10 days prior to the date when the proof of

23     insurance must be received, the Commission issues an

24     order suspending the permit.   If the proof of insurance

25     is not received by the required date, the Company's
0012

 1     permit is suspended for 30 days.

 2            Q.    Did the Commission issue a suspension order

 3     to T&S?

 4            A.    Yes, it did.   On March 14th, the Commission

 5     issued an order suspending permit number HG-61656

 6     regarding T&S Transportation in Docket TV-050186.

 7            Q.    Please turn to Exhibit Number 3, is this a

 8     true and accurate copy of the suspension order sent to

 9     T&S?

10            A.    Yes.

11            Q.    What is your understanding of the

12     Commission's authority to suspend a household goods

13     carrier permit?

14            A.    Under Washington Administrative Code or WAC

15     480-15-430, the Commission can suspend a household goods

16     carrier permit if the carrier has failed to maintain

17     evidence of the required cargo or liability insurance.

18            Q.    Did T&S provide proof of liability insurance

19     within 30 days of the suspension order?

20            A.    No.

21            Q.    What action did the Commission take then?

22            A.    On April 3rd, 2006, the Commission issued an

23     order canceling provisional operating authority and

24     dismissing application for T&S Transportation in Docket

25     TV-050186.    The order advised T&S that the Company was
0013

 1     no longer authorized to operate as a household goods

 2     carrier under the authority of permit HG-61656.

 3            Q.     Please turn to Exhibit Number 4, is this a

 4     true and accurate copy of the cancellation order sent to

 5     T&S?

 6            A.     Yes.

 7            Q.     What is your understanding of the

 8     Commission's authority to cancel a household goods

 9     carrier permit?

10            A.     Under Washington Administrative Code or WAC

11     480-15-450, the Commission may cancel a household goods

12     carrier permit for failure by the carrier to correct

13     within the time frame specified in the suspension order

14     all conditions that led to the suspension of the permit.

15            Q.     Let's briefly discuss the dates of these two

16     orders.     You may want to refer to both the suspension

17     and the cancellation orders.     The suspension order

18     issued March 14, 2006, ordering a 30 day suspension

19     period to begin March 24th.     Can you explain why the

20     cancellation order issued April 3rd, less than 30 days

21     from either date in the suspension order?

22            A.     It's my understanding this was due to an

23     error on the part of the licensing services staff.

24            Q.     Did you receive a declaration from licensing

25     services staff?
0014

 1          A.    Yes.

 2          Q.    Please turn to Exhibit Number 5, is this a

 3     true and accurate copy of that declaration?

 4          A.    Yes, it is.

 5          Q.    To your knowledge, has the Commission

 6     received any communication from T&S since the suspension

 7     order issued?

 8          A.    Except for returning my call this week to

 9     confirm the attendance at this hearing, no.

10          Q.    Does the Commission currently have proof of

11     insurance on file for T&S?

12          A.    No.

13          Q.    Now we're going to talk about T&S's alleged

14     operations after the cancellation.   After the

15     cancellation order was issued, did Staff receive

16     information regarding possible operations by T&S?

17          A.    Yes, on July 24th, 2006, a Ms. Jennifer, I

18     will spell the last name, G-O - S-I-A-Y-N-G-C-O

19     contacted the Commission's consumer affairs section to

20     file a complaint against T&S for a move apparently

21     conducted on July 17th, 2006.   And again on December

22     19th, 2006, a Mr. Joel, J-O-E-L, James contacted the

23     consumer affairs section to file a complaint against T&S

24     for a move conducted over several days.   Mr. James'

25     goods were picked up by T&S on November 9th, 2006.
0015

 1     Goods were delivered to storage on November 10th and

 2     delivered out of storage to Mr. James on November 13th.

 3          Q.    Let's talk about the Siayngco move first.

 4     Please turn to Exhibit Number 6.     Is this a true and

 5     accurate copy of the complaint file generated by

 6     consumer affairs staff in response to a complaint by

 7     Jennifer and Ariel Norman Siayngco?

 8          A.    Yes.

 9          Q.    Please take a moment to skim the file, and do

10     you see anywhere that the carrier ever responded to

11     consumer affairs staff?

12          A.    No, I don't, and it actually appears that

13     according to the first page in the results of the

14     complaint where it states, company did not reply to

15     complaint after repeated attempts by Staff.

16          Q.    Thank you.     Did you obtain a declaration from

17     Ms. Go-Siayngco and Mr. Siayngco about their move?

18          A.    I did.

19          Q.    Please turn to Exhibit Number 7.     Is this a

20     true and accurate copy of that declaration?

21          A.    Yes.

22          Q.    Did Ms. Go-Siayngco and Mr. Siayngco provide

23     you with their move documents?

24          A.    They provided me with the same information

25     that they provided to the complaint staff in consumer
0016

 1     affairs, so I got the identical documents that had been

 2     submitted to consumer affairs in the complaint and some

 3     additional documents as well.

 4          Q.      Please turn to Exhibit Number 8.   Does this

 5     exhibit consist of true and accurate copies of the

 6     estimate and bill of lading provided by Ms. Go-Siayngco

 7     and Mr. Siayngco to the Commission?

 8          A.      Yes, it does.

 9          Q.      According to the declaration of

10     Ms. Go-Siayngco and Mr. Siayngco and according to the

11     bill of lading from their move, when did their move take

12     place?

13          A.      The move took place on July 17th, 2006.

14          Q.      Did Ms. Go-Siayngco and Mr. Siayngco provide

15     you with documentation that they paid T&S for performing

16     this move?

17          A.      Yes, they sent me copies of their tech

18     duplicate made out to T&S in an amount that matches the

19     total listed on T&S's bill of lading, which I believe

20     was $1,120.77, and they sent a letter from their bank

21     confirming that the check had posted.

22          Q.      Please turn to Exhibit Number 9, is this a

23     true and accurate copy of the payment documentation you

24     just described?

25          A.      Yes.
0017

 1          Q.      Now let's discuss the James move.   Please

 2     turn to Exhibit Number 10, is this a true and accurate

 3     copy of the complaint file generated by consumer affairs

 4     staff in response to a complaint by Joel James?

 5          A.      Yes.

 6          Q.      Please refer to that first page that

 7     summarizes the complaint, and please read the first

 8     sentence in the results section.

 9          A.      The results section states:

10                  T&S has been nonresponsive by not

11                  providing the requested information or

12                  documentation or responding to my

13                  E-mails.

14          Q.      Did you obtain a declaration from Mr. James

15     detailing his complaint information?

16          A.      I did.

17          Q.      In what format did he provide that to you?

18          A.      Mr. James sent me the documents by electronic

19     mail and as a pdf file.

20          Q.      Thank you.

21                  And please turn to Exhibit Number 11, is this

22     a true and accurate copy of that declaration?

23          A.      Yes.

24          Q.      Did Mr. James provide you with any other

25     documents?
0018

 1          A.       This was the only document Mr. James supplied

 2     me directly with.     The other documents that I had

 3     available to me were part of the complaint record,

 4     including a copy of an invoice from T&S Transportation

 5     for the move.

 6          Q.       Would you please turn to Exhibit Number 12,

 7     is this a true and accurate copy of the invoice that you

 8     just referred to?

 9          A.       Yes.

10          Q.       And what is the amount shown on that invoice?

11          A.       The charges appear to total $5,610.87.

12          Q.       Thank you.

13                   Now I would like to talk about additional

14     enforcement.     Has the Commission pursued enforcement

15     action other than this proceeding in response to the

16     evidence of the Siayngco move?

17          A.       We have not, but I did make a recommendation

18     within the investigation report that the Commission

19     issue and assess a penalty of $1,500 to T&S for

20     operating without a permit.

21          Q.       Has the Commission pursued any other

22     enforcement action in response to the evidence of the

23     James move?

24          A.       No, I have not.   The Commission could,

25     however, assess an additional $1,500 penalty based on
0019

 1     the James move.

 2          Q.       Thank you.

 3                   Now I would briefly like to discuss service.

 4     When the order, subpoena, and notice of hearing issued

 5     in this case, how were the documents served?

 6          A.       It's my understanding they were issued, or

 7     excuse me, were served by ABC Legal Services on December

 8     7th, 2006.

 9          Q.       Please turn to Exhibit Number 13, is this a

10     true and accurate copy of ABC's declaration of service

11     on T&S?

12          A.       Yes.

13          Q.       Did you receive from T&S any of the records

14     that were requested pursuant to the subpoena duces

15     tecum?

16          A.       No.

17          Q.       What relief are you asking for in this

18     proceeding?

19          A.       Staff requests the Commission issue an order

20     requiring T&S Transportation to cease and desist

21     activities subject to regulation under Title 81 RCW.

22                   MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   Thank you.

23                   I have no further questions for Ms. Young.

24                   JUDGE MACE:   Okay.

25                   Mr. Tanner, you can ask Ms. Young some
0020

 1     questions now if you would like.

 2                  MR. TANNER:    Yeah, I just have a couple

 3     questions.

 4

 5                  C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N

 6     BY MR. TANNER:

 7            Q.    On the declaration from Siayngco, you

 8     mentioned that --

 9                  JUDGE MACE:    What tab number is that, is that

10     number 7?

11                  THE WITNESS:    7.

12     BY MR. TANNER:

13            Q.    You mentioned that you E-mailed us regarding

14     this matter, what E-mail address did you use?

15            A.    To clarify, that was not me that E-mailed

16     you.

17            Q.    Okay.

18            A.    That was our consumer affairs staff, which is

19     a separate section of our agency, so I don't believe I

20     can tell from the documents that we have from consumer

21     affairs which E-mail address was used.

22                  JUDGE MACE:    Excuse me for interrupting, but

23     on Exhibit 10, oh, that's the Joel James.

24            A.    Right, but I believe it would be the same.       I

25     mean subject to check, it would be the Company
0021

 1     information we have on file for T&S which T&S is

 2     required to maintain through us and keep accurate.     So

 3     what we currently have and what we have been submitted

 4     from T&S at some point is ray@t&strans.com, and that's

 5     what we currently have for you.

 6                THE WITNESS:    Is that not correct?

 7                MR. TANNER:    That is not correct, hasn't been

 8     for quite a long time.

 9                THE WITNESS:    It is your obligation to keep

10     that information current with us.

11                JUDGE MACE:    And your E-mail address is

12     ray@t&strans.net; is that correct?

13                MR. TANNER:    Net, correct.

14     BY MR. TANNER:

15          Q.    After the nonresponsiveness to this E-mail,

16     was there any other attempt to communicate with T&S

17     other than through the E-mail address that wasn't

18     functioning?

19          A.    Again, this is work that was done by a

20     separate section from me, so I can glance through the

21     documents here and try to determine that, but I can't

22     answer that firsthand, I don't have firsthand knowledge

23     of it.

24                It appears from the documents in the Siayngco

25     complaint that E-mail was the primary form of contact,
0022

 1     and I believe that is the standard form of contact for

 2     consumer affairs, but again that's not a section I work

 3     in, so I don't --

 4          Q.       Okay, so there was never anything mailed?

 5          A.       I can't say that for sure, I do not --

 6          Q.       That you know of?

 7          A.       I can't say that firsthand.

 8          Q.       That you know of, was there --

 9          A.       I can only refer to what's in the complaint

10     documents, and it looks to me as if this contact, I'm

11     looking now at the Joel complaint, and again these

12     appear -- there appear to be an E-mail contact.

13          Q.       So they weren't mailed to your knowledge?

14          A.       To my knowledge, no.

15          Q.       Was there a telephone call made to your

16     knowledge?

17          A.       To my knowledge, I can't -- I don't believe

18     so, I don't see one in the complaint text.     And again, I

19     believe if staff has what looks to be a current E-mail

20     address for you that the communication is generally done

21     electronically.

22          Q.       To your knowledge, was there any fax done of

23     the same --

24          A.       Again, the complaint documents don't show

25     that, but we would have to talk to the complaint staff
0023

 1     that worked these complaints directly to know for sure.

 2                MR. TANNER:   That was my only questions.

 3                JUDGE MACE:   Anything else, Ms. Rulkowski?

 4                MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   Yes, Your Honor, I

 5     would like to move for the admission of Exhibits Number

 6     1 through 13.

 7                JUDGE MACE:   Any objection to the admission

 8     of Exhibits 1 through 13?

 9                MR. TANNER:   No.

10                JUDGE MACE:   All right, I will admit them.

11

12                      E X A M I N A T I O N

13     BY JUDGE MACE:

14          Q.    I do have one more question though, and that

15     is part of the exhibits included orders suspending

16     permit, Exhibit 3 for example, Exhibit 4 is an order

17     canceling provisional operating authority, those

18     documents were mailed, were they not?

19          A.    Yes, and I believe, subject to check, I

20     believe those are actually sent certified mail.

21                JUDGE MACE:   All right, I don't have anything

22     further.

23                Thank you very much, you're excused.

24                Now, Mr. Tanner, you get your opportunity.

25                (Witness Ray Tanner was sworn.)
0024

 1                  JUDGE MACE:     Now, Mr. Tanner, you're the

 2     President of T&S, is that right?

 3                  MR. TANNER:     That's correct.

 4                  JUDGE MACE:     This is your opportunity to talk

 5     to us about your operation and to tell us about these

 6     two moves or complaints and anything else you have to

 7     say on your behalf.

 8

 9     Whereupon,

10                                RAY TANNER,

11     having been first duly sworn, was called as a witness

12     herein and was examined and testified as follows:

13

14                  D I R E C T       T E S T I M O N Y

15                  MR. TANNER:     First I would like to -- I was

16     ordered to bring or provide documents that was attested

17     that I had not provided.       My understanding was I was to

18     bring them here, and so I have and can present them at

19     this time.    What they consist of is the records of moves

20     that have been done since that period of time, since

21     April 3rd.    They also consist of the certificate of

22     liability insurance as required by the state that was

23     mailed on 3-2-06 to the WTC, and a copy of that is

24     provided.    As well as our equipment list, which is our

25     vehicles that we have for providing that service or all
0025

 1     the services that we do provide.     So I have those to

 2     present first off.

 3                  What I want to -- there's three areas I would

 4     like to cover that is addressed in the investigation.

 5     Number one and the primary one that we're here about as

 6     my understanding of it is regarding the operating

 7     authority.     T&S has operated completely within the

 8     intent, if not the letter, of all WTC rules and

 9     regulations.     All local moves that occurred after April

10     3rd were performed with the belief that the permit had

11     either not been canceled or had been reinstated, because

12     we had received a copy of what was sent to the WTC, and

13     that is what I provided here, the certificate of

14     insurance that was sent to the State.

15                  Three, that all local moves that occurred

16     after April 3rd were performed to the letter of the WTC

17     regulation and requirements as attested to by the

18     customer filing the complaint, the primary one that

19     initiated this.     In the reading of the complaint, the

20     customer details exactly what occurred on that move and

21     the process and how it was handled, and every part of

22     that process was exactly as the WTC prescribes in its

23     regulations.

24                  And lastly regarding the operating authority

25     is that the cancellation of the permit should not have
0026

 1     occurred, and upon occurring should have been reinstated

 2     when the certificate of liability insurance was provided

 3     to the WUTC on 3-2-06.     It's regarding the authority

 4     that I wanted to point out.

 5                   There's two other areas that are spoken of as

 6     violations.     One is the failure to respond.   We maintain

 7     and we believe it to be true that the consumer affairs

 8     staff, Diane Otto, did not contact myself or anyone else

 9     at T&S about the customer complaint that's at the core

10     of this investigation, that Diane Otto did not attempt

11     to contact us by any of four phone numbers that we have

12     nor our fax number nor any of our current, and I

13     underline current, E-mail addresses, nor either of our

14     two mailing addresses.

15                   And three, that the consumer affairs office

16     responsibility under WAC 480-15890 to make reasonable

17     attempt to contact T&S by more than an outdated and

18     inactive E-mail address, which is easily determined by

19     the nonresponsiveness or an attachment of a required

20     response, in other words the knowledge of an opening of

21     mail, which could not have been the case in that E-mail.

22     That it is likely, and as we're learning here anyway,

23     that Diane Otto's attempt to contact us was made

24     exclusively by the discontinued E-mail address.      It

25     would have been, you know, dealt with, you know, right
0027

 1     away had we even known anything other than we did.     And

 2     because we were not contacted, the question really is

 3     how can we be in violation of WAC 480-15-890, we

 4     couldn't be responsive to something we couldn't respond

 5     to.

 6                   Regarding the unlawful advertising, which is

 7     I guess a minor point in the overall thing, we are and

 8     maintain that we are a moving company and are agents for

 9     Global Van Lines as well as other van lines, and then we

10     handle interstate shipments for the public as well as

11     the Army, the Navy, the Coastguard, and the Air Force.

12     We maintain a Department of Defense approved warehouse

13     and receive and deliver out shipments related to this

14     activity.     That all phone book advertising, which

15     includes the web site provided by the phone company,

16     were placed when the WTC permit was active and therefore

17     not in violation in any part.     We are eminently

18     qualified with the experience and expertise in the

19     handling of household goods and do so on a daily basis.

20                   The intra aspect of our business which is

21     relative to the permit is a minor part of the business

22     as illustrated by the files that are providing for the

23     activities since that period of time.     They consist of

24     16 to 18 moves over the period of approximately 9

25     months.     But had we known the permit was in fact
0028

 1     discontinued, we could have easily and would have not

 2     continued that activity until we got that remedied, and

 3     we would be more than willing to.

 4                And that's basically all I have to say.

 5                JUDGE MACE:   I guess I would like to have, I

 6     don't know if you have extra copies of it, but you say

 7     that you sent a copy of the insurance authorization.

 8                MR. TANNER:   I'm providing a copy of what was

 9     sent by our insurance company, because a copy was sent

10     to us, and yes, that is provided here.    You can see on

11     the bottom of it is the -- top of it of course is who

12     it's coming from.

13                JUDGE MACE:   Just off the record for a

14     moment.

15                (Discussion off the record.)

16                JUDGE MACE:   Let the record reflect that I'm

17     going to mark as Exhibit 14 the certificate of liability

18     insurance, it looks like it's from Accordia.

19                MR. TANNER:   Correct.

20                JUDGE MACE:   And 15 will be the copy of

21     customer satisfaction levels by base, which Mr. Tanner

22     says is just an evidence of their activity for

23     deliveries between January 1st, 2006, and July 31st,

24     2007.

25                And then Exhibit 16 will be the equipment
0029

 1     list.

 2

 3                         E X A M I N A T I O N

 4     BY JUDGE MACE:

 5             Q.   So I take it you have interstate authority as

 6     well?

 7             A.   We operate as agents for the van lines and

 8     therefore are under the van lines authority in handling

 9     those goods, yes.

10                  JUDGE MACE:   Have you, Ms. Rulkowski, had an

11     opportunity to review these exhibits?

12                  MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   No, Your Honor, Staff

13     would appreciate an opportunity to take a look at those

14     documents.

15                  JUDGE MACE:   I would certainly offer you an

16     opportunity and some time to discuss this with the

17     respondent, well, I guess he's the respondent in this

18     case at least.    Well, I will give you the opportunity to

19     talk with him and to review the exhibits, let's be off

20     the record for five minutes or more if you need it.

21                  MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   Thank you.

22                  (Recess taken.)

23                  JUDGE MACE:   As I mentioned just now off the

24     record, we were right in the middle of hearing from you,

25     Mr. Tanner, and we had had you present to us three
0030

 1     exhibits, and do you move that those exhibits be

 2     admitted in evidence?

 3                  MR. TANNER:   Please.

 4                  JUDGE MACE:   All right, I will admit them.

 5     Is there anything else that you want to say on your

 6     behalf at this point?

 7                  MR. TANNER:   Not at this point.

 8                  JUDGE MACE:   Okay, I'm going to let

 9     Ms. Rulkowski cross-examine you right now, so if you

10     have questions.

11                  MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   Certainly, Your

12     Honor.   First matter is Staff objects to this exhibit,

13     it doesn't seem relevant.

14                  JUDGE MACE:   Oh, I just admitted it.   I think

15     I would say that I would admit it just as Mr. Tanner

16     mentioned of evidence of their activity, their scope of

17     operation.    And I recognize that my brief review of it,

18     it appears to talk about customer satisfaction, if it's

19     the one I'm thinking of.     And I'm not going to accord it

20     that way, just as what he mentioned, as it's evidence

21     that they have a certain scope of operations and do

22     conduct other moves.

23                  MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   If that's your

24     ruling, then I will accept that.

25                  JUDGE MACE:   Yeah, I already admitted it.
0031

 1                MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   And, Your Honor, we

 2     may need to get Ms. Tina Leipski on the phone to testify

 3     regarding insurance.

 4                JUDGE MACE:   I'm a little uncomfortable about

 5     that, because I typically don't take testimony over the

 6     phone.   I don't mind doing argument over the phone, but,

 7     well, do you have any objection to us trying to do that?

 8                MR. TANNER:   I would object.    You know, this

 9     has not been presented to me as part of what you will be

10     presenting and what you will be talking about, so in

11     that regard I would object.

12                MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   May I respond, Your

13     Honor?

14                JUDGE MACE:   Surely.

15                MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   We can go ahead and

16     get as far as we can without Ms. Leipski.     However, we

17     do have some issues with this particular binder, and I

18     don't even know if Mr. Tanner will be able to answer

19     them, and perhaps we could then raise that as we go

20     along and revisit that issue.

21                JUDGE MACE:   Okay, why don't you do that.

22     Let me just suggest that, I don't want to tell anyone

23     what to do, but based on the situation as I see it now,

24     it seems like it might be a good idea for the two

25     parties to sit down and talk about a way that this might
0032

 1     be resolved without going through the whole gamut of

 2     procedure that we have at the Commission.    Perhaps there

 3     is no way to do that, but I don't know if you have had a

 4     chance to talk with him, and maybe that would be a

 5     beneficial thing to do.

 6                MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:    We haven't, Your

 7     Honor, but I do have some questions, however, that I

 8     would like to ask Mr. Tanner.

 9                JUDGE MACE:    Fine, let's go ahead with the

10     cross-examination then.

11                MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:    Thank you, Your

12     Honor.

13

14                C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N

15     BY MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:

16          Q.    Just as a rather minor matter regarding the

17     E-mail address, was it always .net, or did it change at

18     a certain point?

19          A.    It did, it did change.

20          Q.    And when did it change?

21          A.    I don't know the date that it changed.      I

22     believe it was last May, April or May, but I don't know.

23     I don't know when it quit working.    That's how we found

24     out is we got telephone calls that said, you know, hey,

25     I have E-mailed you, and I haven't got a response.         So
0033

 1     then when we contacted our serving company, or server

 2     company, they said they didn't have any record of it

 3     existing in the first place.     And so we had already had

 4     in place t&strans.net as a web site provided by the

 5     phone book company.    And so since we knew we had that,

 6     we contacted them and said we need to activate an E-mail

 7     address, and so it remained the same address, it just

 8     changed to .net.

 9          Q.    And did you make any effort at that point to

10     send out notifications that your E-mail had changed?

11          A.    We did to everybody we thought of.

12          Q.    And do you know if you sent any sort of

13     notification to the Commission?

14          A.    I do not.     To be honest with you, I didn't

15     know about the requirement notifying them about an

16     E-mail, so unless we had had a recent communication, we

17     would have had no reason to do that without -- as we

18     would have some normal communications with customers.

19          Q.    I understand.     And you were aware that the

20     Commission had suspended the permit back in March of

21     2006; is that correct?

22          A.    I was aware that that was going to happen.

23     My understanding was that this would have stopped that

24     from occurring because it was done in a timely fashion.

25     I assumed, improperly so, that it had crossed in the
0034

 1     mail, if you will, not truly but effectively, and made

 2     the assumption that it would take care of itself,

 3     because the copy I received was mailed from the same

 4     source that went to the WTC.

 5          Q.       And we'll get there in just a moment.

 6          A.       Okay.   So I never checked it out further, I'm

 7     sorry.

 8          Q.       Thank you.   And you were also aware that the

 9     Commission had issued the cancellation order of the T&S

10     Transportation permit, correct?

11          A.       No, I was under the understanding -- I made

12     the assumption that because the only requirement that

13     the Commission was maintaining was that we needed to get

14     this insurance, liability of insurance filed --

15          Q.       Let me stop you for a moment.

16          A.       Yes.

17          Q.       My question is, do you deny that you received

18     the order of cancellation that was issued by the

19     Commission?

20          A.       I don't know whether I did receive it.   I

21     received knowledge, I did receive one of the two

22     notifications and said, hey, this is going to happen,

23     okay, if the insurance filing does not occur.

24          Q.       And you made absolutely no attempt to contact

25     the Commission to try to clarify this issue; is that
0035

 1     correct?

 2          A.      No, the issue was clear, I needed to provide

 3     the liability insurance certificate, that needed to

 4     occur, and that was clear that that's what the WTC

 5     wanted.    We contacted the insurance company, which they

 6     knew that anyway, and they had already done that or done

 7     that at that time on the day before our insurance would

 8     have been up.    Our insurance would have, on 3-3, would

 9     have ceased as from the other company, and the new

10     company took over on 3-2.

11          Q.      So you're testifying that you don't really

12     know what you received from the Commission when; is that

13     correct?

14          A.      I do not recollect.   I do recollect that I

15     had knowledge that that was going to occur if this did

16     not occur, that is the filing did not occur.

17          Q.      Did you consider the risk that you were

18     operating without authority?

19          A.      I didn't think I was at risk, because I had

20     in front of me what the insurance company, at least a

21     copy of what the insurance company mailed to the WTC.

22          Q.      And it didn't occur to you to call and double

23     check with the Commission?

24          A.      No, it did not.

25          Q.      And do you have any proof that the insurance
0036

 1     company sent this binder to the Commission?

 2          A.     No, because it's not sent certified or

 3     anything.

 4          Q.     And do you have any proof that the insurance

 5     -- that the certificate, the Form E, was ever sent to

 6     the Commission?

 7          A.     No, I do not.     Again, I wouldn't, that's not

 8     a certified type of communication.

 9          Q.     And do you know whether or not the insurance

10     company that is listed on this binder, Saint Paul

11     Surplus Lines Insurance Company, which is listed as the

12     insurer for the commercial general liability coverage,

13     is authorized to write insurance in Washington state?

14          A.     I assume that because Accordia has handled

15     our insurance for 16 years and has never had a problem

16     in that regard.   They're a very big company that we are

17     a very small customer of, so their practice and

18     knowledge in providing that insurance is I believe very

19     substantial, and I can't imagine it would be false.

20          Q.     I'm going to ask you to refer to a household

21     goods rule, and this is --

22                 MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:     And I'm happy to

23     provide this as an exhibit if we need it.

24                 JUDGE MACE:     Just tell me what it is.

25                 MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:     Certainly.
0037

 1     BY MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:

 2          Q.    It's WAC 480-15-520, excuse me, 480-15-530,

 3     public liability and property damage insurance, and I'm

 4     going to have you read Section 4, I don't need (a), I

 5     just need the main part of the section, if you would

 6     just read that paragraph out loud, I appreciate it.

 7          A.    Read paragraph 4?

 8          Q.    Correct.

 9          A.    (Reading.)

10                May I file an insurance binder?   We will

11                accept an insurance certificate or

12                binder for up to 60 days.   A certificate

13                or binder may be canceled by filing

14                written notice with us at least 10 days

15                before the cancellation effective date.

16                A certificate or binder must be replaced

17                by a Form E within 60 days of filing or

18                before the expiration date, whichever

19                occurs first.

20          Q.    Thank you.   And so I'm going to ask you, do

21     you know whether or not a Form E was filed within 60

22     days of the binder?

23          A.    I believe it had.   My belief is based upon

24     history only, not specific knowledge of this one itself.

25          Q.    But you have no proof of that, correct?
0038

 1          A.      I do not have proof of that.

 2          Q.      Thank you.

 3

 4                         E X A M I N A T I O N

 5     BY JUDGE MACE:

 6          Q.      Would the insurance company have typically

 7     sent the Form E, or --

 8          A.      Yes.

 9          Q.      -- would you have sent the Form E yourself?

10          A.      No, the insurance company does that, and I

11     believe they are the only ones that can do that to

12     authorize it as valid.      That's my understanding is

13     that's the insurance company's job to do, and that's

14     what we pay them for.

15                  MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:       I have a few other

16     questions.

17          A.      I believe it even says on the bottom of that

18     certificate, evidence of insurance pending receipt of

19     Form E filing, regarding the CC permit.        And I merely

20     want to point out that, you know, this is a copy of what

21     was mailed to the WTC that was copied to me.        This

22     wasn't something that I generated or sent in.

23                  JUDGE MACE:    And he's referring when he says

24     that to what's been marked as Exhibit 14.

25                  THE WITNESS:    I'm sorry.
0039

 1                   C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N

 2     BY MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI.

 3             Q.    A few more questions.   Do you recall

 4     receiving a copy of the investigation report?

 5             A.    I do.

 6             Q.    And did you contact the Commission at that

 7     point, did you make any contact with the Commission at

 8     that point?

 9             A.    No, I did not.   I understood it to be a

10     subpoena to be here and to make, you know, a list of

11     stuff available here, and that that was all there was to

12     it.

13             Q.    T&S Transportation did provide household

14     goods moving services within the state of Washington to

15     the Siayngcos on July 17, 2006, correct?

16             A.    Yes, we did.

17             Q.    And T&S Transportation also provided moving

18     services to Mr. Joel James in November as was set out in

19     the testimony of Ms. Young; is that correct?

20             A.    Yes, we did, as well as what we provided

21     here.

22             Q.    So it was those two moves plus what's

23     provided here, and you are testifying that that's the

24     extent of your in-state moving activities?

25             A.    Yes, we provided -- we pulled all files that
0040

 1     were of that nature.

 2                  MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:     Thank you.

 3

 4                        E X A M I N A T I O N

 5     BY JUDGE MACE:

 6          Q.      And you said that was about 16 to 18 other

 7     moves?

 8          A.      Correct.

 9                  JUDGE MACE:   Thank you.

10                  MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:     Your Honor,

11     Mr. Tanner, I believe that it would be helpful to have

12     Ms. Leipski, and let me describe what it is that I will

13     ask her, and perhaps we could discuss then the

14     appropriateness of her providing testimony over the

15     phone.    Would that be acceptable to make an offer of

16     proof?

17                  JUDGE MACE:   I'm not going to let her appear

18     over the phone.    If you want to talk with her with

19     Mr. Tanner, I would appreciate it if you would do that.

20     I continue to think there may be some way to resolve

21     this based on what I have heard today, but if you

22     continue to feel that you need to bring her testimony,

23     then I'm going to continue the hearing and have her come

24     in person.    I don't want to do it over the phone.    So I

25     don't know how you want to approach it, but are you done
0041

 1     with your cross-examination?

 2                MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:     I am, Your Honor, I

 3     have no further questions.

 4                JUDGE MACE:   All right.

 5                Did you have anything else that you wanted to

 6     add, Mr. Tanner?

 7

 8               R E D I R E C T      T E S T I M O N Y

 9                MR. TANNER:   Only that our intent has never

10     been to be outside of the regulation.     Our first

11     knowledge, our first true knowledge that we were not

12     permitted to be doing what we were doing was on December

13     7th when I received this, okay.     I had received no, not

14     a telephone call, not a letter, not anything that

15     suggested to us, and I know your smile is with

16     criticism, but that is the reality, that we did not know

17     until this arrived that we had a problem.

18                We have always been insured properly by the

19     WTC requirements, as is illustrated there and can be

20     attested to by the insurance company.     I mean we're not

21     talking about a document that's issued and then not

22     fulfilled from a cost standpoint or anything else.          We

23     have to maintain those insurances for not just the State

24     but for any of the van lines that we deal with.       You

25     know, they require it on a more stringent level at
0042

 1     higher amounts than even the State does.     So we have

 2     always operated with the intent of the WTC regulations.

 3                We have not -- we have made a point always of

 4     operating correctly in that regard, and even the letter

 5     of complaint attests to that.     We followed procedure

 6     exactly right.    We used the bill of lading that is

 7     prescribed by the WTC, it was reviewed as they attested

 8     to, you know, on move day.     In other words, every single

 9     procedure along was followed correctly.     Our equipment

10     is all licensed, is all insured, everything about our

11     operation is above board and has been.     What wasn't was

12     some communication.     Had we known on June or July or

13     something that we had a problem, we would have

14     immediately addressed it by either reapplying, if

15     necessary, for a new permit and ceasing that activity,

16     which as you can see is not substantial, until such time

17     as we had that.    And that would really be my only point

18     is that we stayed within the intent of the WTC

19     regulations.

20                But, you know, clearly if the WTC has not

21     received that or maintains that that has never been

22     received, then we would be in violation of not having

23     been received, but we weren't in violation of the intent

24     of the regulation, the intent of the regulation to

25     protect the consumer.     The consumer has been protected
0043

 1     in all aspects of all parts of our operation, and that

 2     would be the only thing I wanted to make clear.

 3                JUDGE MACE:     I'm wondering how can we resolve

 4     whether or not, this binder was sent, whether or not

 5     there was the form that was to have been sent.

 6                MR. TANNER:     The only thing I can do is I can

 7     request or you could request from the insurance agency,

 8     you know, their copies of them having provided it, you

 9     know, beyond the certificate.

10                JUDGE MACE:     I would like to have you contact

11     the insurance company and submit to both Staff and me

12     some evidence that they --

13                MR. TANNER:     I would be happy to.

14                JUDGE MACE:     -- filed it.

15                MR. TANNER:     I would be happy to.

16                JUDGE MACE:     All right.

17                Anything else?

18                MR. TANNER:     We will no longer do any intra

19     moving, I have no problem in not doing that until such

20     time as we're able to either get a new permit or have

21     this one reinstated.     If that's possible, I don't know,

22     you know, what the process is on that other than a new

23     application.   A new application I know takes 30 days.

24                JUDGE MACE:     Anything else, do you have

25     anything else of this witness?
0044

 1                   MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   May I ask one further

 2     question, Your Honor?

 3                   JUDGE MACE:   Surely.

 4

 5               R E C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N

 6     BY MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:

 7          Q.       Did the Siayngcos or Mr. James make a

 8     complaint with your company?

 9          A.       The Siayngcos did, and Mr. James didn't, yes.

10          Q.       And did they indicate to you that they had

11     filed a complaint also, that they had complained to the

12     Commission?

13          A.       Mr. James did, the Siayngcos did not.

14          Q.       And did you have any indication from

15     Mr. James that you were going to be contacted by the

16     Commission?

17          A.       No, he only, well, threatened that he was

18     going to do this and this and this, and I did receive

19     communication from the Better Business Bureau, I did not

20     receive any communication from any of the other places

21     he said he was going to contact and complain.     And I

22     responded to the Better Business Bureau, and I would

23     have responded to anybody else too.

24          Q.       So did you have any communications with

25     Mr. James after he filed his complaint with the
0045

 1     Commission?

 2          A.       I don't know when he did, so I don't believe

 3     so, no.

 4                   MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   Thank you.

 5                   JUDGE MACE:   Anything further?

 6                   MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   Thank you, Your

 7     Honor, no.

 8                   JUDGE MACE:   All right, thank you, you're

 9     excused.

10                   So do you want to spend some time with

11     Mr. Tanner at this point with Ms. Leipski on the phone,

12     or what's your suggested course of action?

13                   MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   We would like to

14     confer briefly among ourselves, and then we would be

15     happy to talk with Mr. Tanner.

16                   JUDGE MACE:   Okay.

17                   (Recess taken.)

18                   JUDGE MACE:   We're on the record.

19                   MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   Thank you.   Staff

20     asks that the hearing be continued.

21                   JUDGE MACE:   Okay.

22                   MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   And that is pending

23     the provision of the proof of insurance by Mr. Tanner.

24                   MR. TANNER:   Yes.

25                   MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   And Staff would also
0046

 1     ask that during the continuance period that T&S

 2     Transportation file its application if it intends to

 3     continue operating as an in-state household goods

 4     carrier.

 5                MR. TANNER:   Yes.

 6                MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:    And then along with

 7     that, Staff would expect to see proof of insurance that

 8     would correspond to the new application.

 9                MR. TANNER:   Okay.

10                JUDGE MACE:   How soon do you think you can

11     have something from the insurance company?

12                MR. TANNER:   I would think next week easily.

13                JUDGE MACE:   All right, I would like to have

14     you file that, send a copy to me and a copy to Staff,

15     and also file it with -- I don't know if you got the

16     information about where to file.    I guess if you send it

17     to Staff, you should send it to the records center, but

18     I don't think I have an address for the records center.

19     I guess you could, well, if you got the order

20     instituting this proceeding.

21                MR. TANNER:   Yes.

22                JUDGE MACE:   It shows the Commission's

23     address.

24                MR. TANNER:   Yes.

25                JUDGE MACE:   If you would make sure you put
0047

 1     the case number and the case caption on any cover

 2     documents and send it to the Commission.

 3                   MR. TANNER:   Okay.

 4                   JUDGE MACE:   I think that that would be

 5     sufficient so that they could have it in the records

 6     center, but you should also send a copy to Staff and a

 7     copy to me.

 8                   MR. TANNER:   Are you speaking of all of the

 9     above, the application and insurance and all of that?

10                   JUDGE MACE:   No, all I want for purposes of

11     this record right now is something from the Company

12     showing that they filed the Form E.

13                   MR. TANNER:   Okay.

14                   JUDGE MACE:   Or why they didn't or something

15     about it.

16                   MR. TANNER:   Okay.

17                   JUDGE MACE:   And that's all you have to send

18     to me.

19                   MR. TANNER:   Okay.

20                   JUDGE MACE:   As far as the application, you

21     would file that as you normally file the application,

22     and you might want to let Staff know that you're doing

23     that, but yeah.

24                   MR. TANNER:   Okay.

25                   JUDGE MACE:   Okay, is that --
0048

 1                  MR. TANNER:   I believe there's a fax

 2     application process.

 3                  VICKI ELLIOTT:   It can be mailed or faxed,

 4     either.

 5                  MR. TANNER:   Okay.

 6                  JUDGE MACE:   So we're clear then, so we're

 7     going to have a continuance, and let's, I'm going to

 8     need to consult the calendar, but I'm thinking actually

 9     based on my own schedule that this would have to be

10     either January 26th or mid February.     How would January

11     26th be if I can arrange that?

12                  VICKI ELLIOTT:   Is that a Friday?

13                  JUDGE MACE:   I think it is a Friday, is that

14     a problem?

15                  VICKI ELLIOTT:   Would you plan on having it

16     here or down --

17                  JUDGE MACE:   We can have it either place.

18     It's probably more convenient for you for it to be here,

19     it's more convenient for all of these witnesses for it

20     to be in Olympia.

21                  MR. TANNER:   Well, I could certainly be down

22     there.

23                  JUDGE MACE:   I mean possibly we don't even --

24     may not even -- well, I don't know that.

25                  All right, let's set it for January 26th at
0049

 1     Olympia.

 2                   MR. TANNER:   Would that be in the -- or what

 3     time would that be approximately?

 4                   JUDGE MACE:   I will send out a notice.

 5                   MR. TANNER:   I only ask from a transit

 6     standpoint.

 7                   JUDGE MACE:   Would you prefer it to be later

 8     in the day?

 9                   MR. TANNER:   Not necessarily later, but not

10     first thing, I mean not 8:00.

11                   JUDGE MACE:   Like for example 10:00?

12                   MR. TANNER:   10:00 or after would be fine.

13                   JUDGE MACE:   I have to check with the

14     scheduling person about my schedule for that day and

15     arrange it so that it works, but I will get a notice out

16     so that everybody knows what the date is and the time

17     and the place.

18                   Very well, is there anything else we need to

19     address at this point?      Everybody knows what they have

20     to do.

21                   MS. CAMERON-RULKOWSKI:   Your Honor, I would

22     just reiterate to make sure that it was clear that Staff

23     would want to see a copy of the application for the new

24     permit.

25                   JUDGE MACE:   Yes, he's going to --
0050

 1                MR. TANNER:   I can have that to you by

 2     Tuesday.

 3                JUDGE MACE:   Very well, then we are adjourned

 4     until January 26th.

 5                (Hearing adjourned at 2:50 p.m.)

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