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					                     Interviews with T. Colin Campbell, Ph.D. (2005)

Table of Contents (A more detailed TOC                       sort of tumor model system, or cancer
is available toward the bottom of the page at                system, that we could describe and                    experiment with. I was specifically
Just click on the page number to go to it:                   interested in the question concerning the
Tape 1 (Interview 1a) .................................. 1   effect of animal protein, but more
Tape 2 (Interview 1b) ................................ 19    particularly just the effect of protein on
Tape 3 (Interview 2a) ................................ 36    tumor development. We discovered that
Tape 4 (Interview 2b) ................................ 54    children in the Philippines who were
Tape 5 (Interview 3a) ................................ 66    consuming a lesser total amount of protein
Tape 6 (Interview 3b) ................................ 80    had fewer incidences of a certain kind of
Tape 7 (Interview 4) .................................. 97   cancer, which is exactly the opposite of what
                                                             was previously believed. Then there was a
                                                             report in India using experimental animals
Tape 1 (Interview 1a)                                        that showed that the rats that got less
                                                             protein had fewer tumors, so I focused on
S.J.: We‘re speaking with T. Colin                           that question. These studies clearly showed
Campbell, Jacob Gould Schurman Professor                     the effect of protein on cancer development
Emeritus of Nutritional Biochemistry at                      in these experimental animals.
Cornell University. Dr. Campbell has
received several prestigious awards for his                  S.J.: What kind of protein did you use?
work relating diet, nutrition, and diseases                  T.C.C.: At first I didn‟t pay a lot of attention
including the 1998 lifetime achievement                      as to what kind of protein we used; I thought
award in cancer research from the American                   protein is protein is protein. After we saw
Institute for Cancer Research has authored                   what dramatic affects protein had on the
or co-authored over 350 scientific articles.                 tumor growth and development, I started
In the book the China Study: Startling                       paying attention to what kind of protein it
Implications for Diet, Weight Loss, and                      was. We used casein in our study, which of
Long-Term Health Dr. Campbell and his                        course represents about 85-90% of the total
son, Thomas M. Campbell II cite over 700                     protein of cow‟s milk. The results seemed to
peer reviewed published scientific studies                   be specific of casein because when we ran
which conclude that consuming an animal-                     trials using wheat protein and soy protein
based diet can aggravate many chronic                        fed at the same levels that had turned on the
degenerative diseases and even play a role in                cancer with the casein, those plant-based
causing them, and conversely, eating a                       proteins did not have that effect. There is a
plant-based diet can act as a preventative                   major distinction between animal-based
and even supports healing.                                   proteins, or more specifically in this case
                                                             casein, and wheat and soy protein, or plant-
S.J.: In your research, what switch did you                  based protein.
use to turn cancer on and off?
T.C.C.: Originally our research involved
experimental animals and a very specific
S.J.: Why are studies in rats particularly       T.C.C.: Well I can‘t say for goat‘s milk
relevant to human cancer studies?                because we used cow‘s milk.
T.C.C.: There are numerous instances
where studies done on one species do NOT
translate to the effects in other species, and   S.J.: Isn’t casein found in goat [milk]
we can site these differences that exist         products?
between species as a given. However, rats
are mammals as humans are and as far as          T.C.C.: Casein is found in virtually all milk
their basic biochemistry and physiology is       products including human milk too, but
concerned, we can say with a great deal of       there are other factors to be considered.
confidence that at least 95-99% of the           Casein percentages can differ somewhat
biochemical reactions that exist in a rat also   between species so its effects may not
exist in humans. So there is far more            necessarily be exactly the same. Casein
correspondence biochemically and                 actually can differ somewhat between
physiologically speaking between a rat and       breeds of cows which can lead to slightly
humans or between one animal species and         different responses. Differences and
another animal species than what we‟re           discrepancies certainly exist and
generally willing to admit. In addition, we      administering casein in one species will not
often want to know what is the dose              always create exactly the same degree of
relationship? That is to say, if we see a        response as it does in another species, but
reaction in one species with a certain dose,     compared to the extreme results from the
we might not see the reaction to the same        wheat and soy protein, casein is casein is
degree of response in another species at that    casein. If it‟s going to have any effect at all,
same dose. A different dosage may be             the casein is going to increase tumor
needed. Two things that must be taken into       development. It will never decrease tumor
consideration: first, the dose of the agent      development. A large amount information
that is being administered and second, the       regarding the casein/tumor incidence has
more qualitative characteristics of the          come out since we have finished our work,
response. Taking all that into consideration,    and is fully supportive.
rats and humans, in this case require about
the same amount of protein to sustain health
                                                 S.J.: Why were tumors in the liver studied?
and their rapid growth rates are almost
identical. This relevance between rats and
humans has been shown before in other            T.C.C.: Liver cancer is common in some
studies aside from our case.                     areas in the world in people and not so
                                                 common in other areas, such as more
                                                 Western countries. Often times the
S.J.: And again this was casein protein          difference between liver cancer from one
from dairy products, bovine or goat              country to the next, usually between a poor
products.                                        country and a rich country, really has to do
                                                 with another agent. Most commonly this is
                                                 exposure to a hepatitis virus, in this case,
                                                 Hepatitis B or Hepatitis C. If an individual
remains chronically infected with these            increased pancreatic cancer development
viruses, the risk for liver cancer will be         as well. Pancreas, breast, and liver were
significantly raised. Poorer countries have        the cancers that were chiefly studied at the
more virus contamination, more exposure,           time. I think our studies were probably more
and therefore you have a much higher               extensive and robust than the other studies
proportion of the population that is               but nonetheless when people did choose to
susceptible to liver cancer to begin with.         study the effect of protein on cancer
We know that for a cancer such as liver            development that is what they saw—an
cancer to grow in people who are                   increase in tumor formation. We now know
chronically infected, there is going to be a       that there are certain things that go on that
large influence from nutritional intake. In        are likely to affect cancers in all the organs
this case, we‟re talking about casein as the       as far as animal protein intake is concerned.
influencing factor. Liver cancer was a good
choice to study not only because that was
the cancer that I was observing in people,         S.J.: So in the lab were you recreating the
but it has become common in experimental           process by which precancerous legions
cancer research over the last three or four        accumulate in the body because of random
decades or longer to study to the effect of        mutations or from exposure to carcinogens
carcinogens on liver cancer as opposed to          like aflatoxin?
other kinds of cancers in experimental
animals because liver cancers tend to grow         T.C.C.: Aflatoxin is one of the most potent if
rather rapidly. We can study their                 not the most potent chemical carcinogen to
biochemistry more effectively. Because of          cause liver cancer in rats, which makes it a
this, there is a huge body of literature on the    good model to study. The initiation of
mechanics of tumor development in the liver        cancers can occur in various ways, virtually
as opposed to other tissues. There are all         all of which have to do with perturbation or
kinds of reasons, part of it‟s tradition, but      disruption of the genetic material in one
part of it‟s really, I think, rational thinking.   fashion or another. When chemical
                                                   carcinogens enter the body and get
                                                   metabolized, they bind to the DNA in
S.J.: Were the results applicable to other         specific spots. After becoming metabolized,
organs?                                            the carcinogens disrupt prominent, key
                                                   genes that might be involved with cancer
T.C.C.: Yes, studies that were being               development. Viruses like Hepatitis B virus
conducted by a friend of mine at the               and Hepatitis C virus do the same thing: a
University of Illinois Medical Center in           part of their DNA comes in and inserts itself
Chicago over some years about the time that        into the DNA of the rat, the host DNA. In
we were doing our studies on liver cancer          addition to chemical carcinogens, radiation
was able to show that higher intakes of            may give rise to what we call spontaneous
casein actually enhanced the development of        mutations from time to time and there are
mammary tumor development or breast                other agents as well that are cancer causing.
cancer development. There were other               That whole process is referred to in the
studies showing that higher protein intake         research community as cancer initiation.
There are various agents that can initiate a
normal cell to convert to an early cancer
cell. In fact, we have conversion of normal        S.J.: And what percentage of calories do
cells to cancer cells going on in our tissues      Americans get?
to some extent, for our whole lives. That is
probably true for most of us, if we‟re             T.C.C.: Approximately 90% or 95% of the
exposed to environmental issues, concerns,         Americans are consuming somewhere in the
and things. But that‟s a given, that is part of    range of about 11% to 24% of their calories
the whole process, partly natural, partly it       from protein daily. It‟s a little higher today
probably occurs more prominently in an             than it was when I first wrote the book, but
industrialized society, unfortunately. The         the average protein intake in the American
real question is what happens to those early       diet is about 18% right now and about 70-
cancer lesions that initiate that way? Do          75% of that protein is from animal sources.
those cells stay there? Do they get                In the case of these animal experiments, this
corrected? Well, a big percentage of the           is a situation that is really comparable to
cancerous cells get repaired and reabsorb          what a lot of humans are now actually
back, but some of them stay in the liver and       consuming.
they can remain latent. These cells don‟t
cause any problems as long as we‟re
keeping with the right kind of nutrition, and      S.J.: And yet that animal protein isn’t all
that‟s where the protein thing comes in.           milk protein?
Protein, animal protein in particular,
behaves like fertilizer, fertilizing these pre-    T.C.C.: Right, correct. I wish we had had
cancerous cells so that they grow. We can          the time and money to test all the other
have weed seeds in a garden and they never         animal proteins, but I don‟t think it would
grow to create weeds if we don‟t give them         really be necessary because when
water and fertilizer. It‟s the same idea here      comparing animal proteins and plant
with the cancerous cells and the animal            proteins there are other effects such as
protein.                                           changing blood cholesterol levels, and
                                                   varying degrees of calcium leakage. Animal
                                                   proteins all tend to behave similarly and we
S.J.: So in the lab all the rats were              know a lot about them now. I think if we
constantly challenged by the same                  were to test a whole bunch of other animal
aflatoxin dosage. You then gave some of            proteins like meat proteins, egg proteins,
the rats a higher amount of protein, in            and so forth I would bet anything that any
this case casein, and those rats got tumors        animal protein tested in this amount would
and the other rats did not. What was the           in fact turn on cancer, even though final
percentage on that?                                testing hasn‟t been done on all types of
                                                   animal protein. It‟s sort of like asking does
T.C.C.: That is correct. Initially, the level of   cigarette smoke really cause cancer or not.
protein that we were using was 20% of the          No one has really proven in a human study
total calories of the diet, which is generally     that cigarette smoke really causes cancer in
considered to be normal, traditional, regular.     humans.
                                                just by giving them this 20% and 5% casein
S.J.: It’s hard to prove anything in
biological terms.
                                                S.J.: What does that imply for supporting
T.C.C.: That‟s right. If we want that 100%      healing from challenging diseases, like
proof for all conditions we‟re not going to     cancer?
get it. One has to operate on the odds.
                                                T.C.C.: I‘m not sure what you mean by
                                                supporting healing.
S.J.: What‟s fascinating is that for the
rats that had tumors and were still under
aflatoxin challenge, you decreased the          S.J.: I don‟t want to say treatment, what
percentage of casein fed and what               is the proper word? Because reducing
happened?                                       animal products is not a treatment —that
                                                is why I am saying support the body‟s
T.C.C.: Those tumors grew no further and        healing.
from the evidence that we had it looked like
they reversed which is fascinating. The way     T.C.C.: Well it‘s an interesting word and
the casein was working was promoting the        concept. I‘m going to suggest that I think
development of growth in tumors, which is       you really are referring to treatment, because
actually the second phase of cancer             a lot of people would agree that diet
development- promotion. During the              certainly can prevent certain diseases, like
promotion stage of cancer development           cancer and heart disease. Most people agree
other studies have shown that it‘s largely      that consuming the right kind of diet will
reversible and the classic case is with         prevent diseases. It turns out that that same
cigarette smoking. Most of the cancer that      kind of diet that prevents the disease is now
occurs as a result of smoking cigarettes is     being shown to actually reverse advanced
occurring because of the promotion of the       disease, and that‘s the definition of
early tumor lesions. When people stop           treatment. In the case of heart disease for
smoking their risk of getting lung cancer       example, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr. took
goes down; it may take a few years but it       patients with advanced heart disease who
reverses. Being aware of that fact, I was not   were being told by their doctors to go home
surprised to see the results that we did.       and prepare their final papers and put them
When we changed the level of protein in         on a diet that reversed the heart disease—he
these rats from 20%, even after the tumors      showed it very clearly. Dr. Dean Ornish did
had already started to grow, we switched        something similar with Type II diabetes.
them to the 5% casein diets. The tumors         And there is some evidence for cancer too.
essentially stopped growing on the evidence     So I‘m going to go out on a limb on this one
that we had. This was very exciting. We         and say that if your word healing can mean
got to a point where we were demonstrating      treatment, I‘m going to suggest that it‘s
that we could turn on and off tumor growth,     treatment. We need more work in this area,
                                                but it‘s very clear from this evidence that we
can both restore health and prevent health       S.J.: And not plant protein?
from deteriorating with this kind of diet.
                                                 T.C.C.: Well, we were using animal protein
                                                 at the time and so everything that we were
S.J.: Is it bottom line that the body is         doing at that particular time was with
doing the healing and it‟s essentially           casein. We were simply asking questions as
healing itself?                                  to how it worked. Animal protein increased
                                                 the transport of the carcinogen into the cell,
T.C.C.: Yes, I think I would agree with that.    it increased the enzyme principally
If the body is given the right resources,        responsible for activating the carcinogen,
which means the right kind of food, the right    and it changed many other parameters, and
kind of air, and the right kind of water, and    all of this was acting in concert, which is
if other conditions are made right, the body I   really an amazing thought. We were not
guess you could say is healing itself, which     talking about any specific mechanism but
is a nice thought.                               really a cluster of highly integrated
                                                 mechanisms acting in symphony, in
                                                 harmony, to create the effect. And that was
S.J.: And it‟s not being challenged by
                                                 with just one phase of the cancer
cancer promoters in animal products?
                                                 development. When we turned our attention
                                                 to the promotion question, we then also
T.C.C.: Exactly.                                 learned that there are multiple mechanisms
                                                 there too. Since we stopped that research
                                                 and I have been watching the literature as to
S.J.: So plant proteins—like that from rice,
                                                 what other people are doing, there are still
wheat, or soy—do not cause this problem.
                                                 more mechanisms emerging. To answer your
How come only animal protein causes this?
                                                 question, cancer promotion works through a
                                                 whole family of mechanisms, biochemically
T.C.C.: Well, there appear to be multiple so-    speaking and physiologically speaking, and
called mechanisms or explanatory                 whether it‟s through hormones traveling
mechanisms, as we like to say in research.       around the body, it‟s an amazing effect. This
To get to the point of your question, we         observation probably excites me more than
actually did look for so-called mechanisms       any other single observation about the
as to how and why this happens. In the late      relationship between animal protein intake
70s, when we were still working on the           and of disease response like cancer. When
initiation stage and before we got involved      one actually begins to look at the
in the promotion stage, I was amazed that        mechanisms behind the fact that high
every time we looked for a mechanism,            protein gives more cancer, or high protein
biochemically speaking, we found one.            gives more blood cholesterol, or high
Higher protein diets increased cell              protein does this or that or something else
replication, that was very clear. We showed      and realizes that there is a symphony here at
this in 1972 and it corresponded with what       work, a symphony of reactions. I find it
some other research that people had done.        almost overwhelming that all of this stuff
seems to work together and everything goes        heavily laden with animal products, the
wrong.                                            rich affluent diet, as compared with low
                                                  cancer rates in countries that use more of a
                                                  plant-based diet.
S.J.: Just as when the body is working well
to support healing, normally the lesions get      T.C.C.: Right, that is certainly true, I mean,
reabsorbed by the body, in a whole                rich countries consume rich food, and that
symphony of immune responses, when the            so-called rich food is not the best food, it‟s
immune system is robust.                          not the healthiest food. It‟s high in animal
                                                  products which changes the intake of a
T.C.C.: Absolutely, right, exactly, and the       whole host of different kinds of nutrients, all
immune system as you know is made up of           of which tend to encourage disease
enormously complex list of components all         formation.
working together. And again, how ever you
want to look at this, it seems that all these
pieces of the puzzle all get together and         S.J.: Is the difference between such
decide how are they going to manage this          countries a factor of 10 in percentage
and they work together. The converse of this      rates of cancer among the population, just
is that if the body is healthy, healing itself    as a ball park?
perhaps or at least maintaining its health,
these reactions are going on simultaneously,      T.C.C.: Well, you kind of have to look at
that‟s a symphony to create health.               each cancer individually, rather than total
                                                  cancer. It‘s true for individual cancers you
                                                  can find differences in the rates of cancer in
S.J.: So when the promoters get removed,          different countries at least 10 fold if not in
the tumors can get reabsorbed by the              fact a 100 fold. It‘s huge differences, really
body and if the body doesn‟t have any             huge differences, as you look at the
challenges and we‟re in good health               individual cancers. The reason you have to
without any tumors, then it‟s actually            look at individual cancers, as opposed to just
quite difficult for cancer to get a foothold.     cancer generically is that in poor countries
                                                  they have less instance of cancer when a
T.C.C.: Exactly. Exactly, that is precisely it.   more plant-based diet is consumed.
If you create the right biochemical and           However, there are other factors that come
physiological environment, in other words         into play here, as we just mentioned before
take away the promoters, take away the            for liver cancer. In poorer countries, the
offending agents, and let the body do its         hygienic environment is not so good, and the
miracle in the way it wants, the chances of       exposure to viruses and bacteria is higher,
things going wrong are very, very remote.         and maybe people are saving foods in ways
                                                  that is not to their best interest. Essentially
                                                  what you get in these poor countries is that
S.J.: Which may be why cancer is so
                                                  they have a higher exposure to some kind of
prevalent in industrialized climates and
                                                  initiating agents, and so you have a higher
industrialized countries with the diets so
proportion of people susceptible to get           completely eliminate it. If we live in a
certain kinds of cancer. You will see in poor     toxic, poisonous environment for some
countries, for example, that incidences of        period of time, we all know we get
breast cancer, colon cancer, cancers like that    something that goes wrong eventually, even
may be much lower, but you will see higher        though we may adapt in the short run.
cancer rates for, let‘s say, liver cancer,
perhaps stomach cancer where they have no
refrigeration and esophageal cancer, cancer       S.J.: We get something eventually if we
of the throat. In each of those cases, if you     challenge ourselves with promoters of
look at those cancers individually, even the      diseases?
cancers that are fairly common in poor
countries, and you ask yourself which             T.C.C.: Yes.
cluster of factors is causing those cancers to
be high, you‘ll discover, of course, it‘s the
kind of agents you find in poor societies that    S.J.: If we don‟t, but we support robust
are operating. In respect to nutrition and        healing and prevention then we‟re ok?
animal foods, you can thank God they‘re not
consuming animal foods, because if they           T.C.C.: Yes, you are absolutely right,
were consuming animal foods…                      absolutely, absolutely.

S.J.: Under the challenges that they              S.J.: In The China Study, you and your
face…                                             son cite research showing that animal
                                                  based foods increase people‟s production
T.C.C.: Under the challenges that they face,      of insulin-like growth factor 1, which
exactly, they would have a disaster. It‘s         stimulates reproduction and growth of
interesting to see people coming from the         cancer cells and inhibits cancer cell death
poorer countries to the Unites States start       by apoptosis, or self-destruction of the
consuming our diet. While they‘re adapting        cell, especially in the ovaries, breast, and
to our diet, it‘s more offensive to them than     prostate. How does growth factor do
it is even to us. You‘ll see an explosion of      that?
diabetes or an explosion of obesity amongst
some of these people when they move into          T.C.C.: It‘s really not clear. These growth
this more industrialized society. Our body        factors are acting like hormones;
basically is always trying to create health,      intracellular hormones to a great extent. As
given its resources, even when we provide         they come into the cell, they bind to a
the wrong resources, like when we‘re living       receptor protein. That receptor protein, in a
in the wrong environment, the body will           sort of generic model, carries them from the
still, from the biochemical point of view, try    cell membrane into the nucleus where the
to do the best it can. Because it‘s a matter of   DNA is and delivers them to the nucleus.
survival we will adapt to bad conditions          These growth factors then act on the DNA
enough to at least reduce the bad effects that    and switch on the expression of certain
would otherwise occur. We never                   genes which actually stimulates a cluster of
things to go on to eventually lead to growth     T.C.C.: Exactly, so there is a period in our
of cells, or replication of cells. It does all   life when growth is important, it clearly is
these things, thus it‘s being called a growth    that is just part of the human cycle. But later
factor.                                          that kind of growth, unless we‘re repairing
                                                 certain wounds or something of that sort, is
                                                 not the kind of thing that we want to
S.J.: Why does extra growth factor               encourage.
increase the chance of getting tumors in
the reproductive system, in particular, by
more than 500%, according to The China           S.J.: Do animal products increase the risk
Study, your book?                                of fibroids?

T.C.C.: Well, I hadn‘t really thought of it      T.C.C.: Yes, it seems to, that is just sort of a
quite that way; that is an interesting           given, an understanding, but I can‘t think of
observation. The growth factors, at least the    specific research where that‘s been
growth factors that we‘re generally talking      demonstrated. Fibroids, in their classic case,
about here, will be increased by consuming       usually the fibroids you might see in the
milk. When we‘re infants, when we‘re             case of the uterus, uterine fibroids, tend to
consuming human milk, mother‘s milk,             either create an environment for or are part
we‘re at a point in time, our early              of the development of uterine cancer. When
development, where growth is important.          fibroids begin to occur in a woman and are
Milk is the food that we choose to consume       seen, it‘s generally acknowledged that they
in the very beginning, this is nature. It‘s      have a higher risk for uterine cancer and so
promoting growth, and it‘s particularly          over the years women have had
effective at doing this naturally. As we get     hysterectomies upon the discovery of
older, to promote growth doesn‘t make a lot      fibroids like that. Now we know that dairy
of sense.                                        is the one food that really has a strong
                                                 association with uterine cancer.

S.J.: Milk is better for babies.
                                                 S.J.: Okay, so the uterine cancer
T.C.C.: Human milk.                              association with dairy has been studied
                                                 more than fibroids?

S.J.: Human milk is better for human             T.C.C.: Yes.

T.C.C.: Exactly, cow‘s milk for cow babies,      S.J.: So people are just inferring from the
or calves.                                       tight correlation with respect to cancer
                                                 that milk products also promote fibroids.

S.J.: And goat‟s milk for goat babies.           T.C.C.: That‘s it.

S.J.: What about other animal products?           S.J.: Could you please describe the
Meat, fish, chicken, pork?                        Harvard Nurses‟ Health Study?

T.C.C.: Well, if we just talk about protein       T.C.C.: Yes, the Harvard Nurses‘ Health
what we find in the one example where this        Study, which is probably, arguably, the most
was done fairly thoroughly, was the effect of     prominent case control study that has been
various animal proteins‘ ability to increase      conducted over the years, had been ongoing
blood cholesterol levels and promote the          since the 1970s. And in the early 1980s it
formation of atherosclerotic plaques. This        was redesigned to collect dietary
was done in rabbits some years ago by the         information. And over the years they
late Ken Carroll at the University of             became particularly interested in looking at
Western Ontario. He compared a whole              the relationship between dietary factors and
bunch of animal proteins, a whole bunch of        disease outcomes. Initially, it was breast
plant proteins and found that as a group,         cancer that they were primarily interested in
plant proteins tended to be associated with       but then subsequent to that they have
lower cholesterol levels. He found that           worked in a lot of other diseases. And so in
animal proteins have something in common,         this cohort that they have been using, it now
higher blood cholesterol, which was quite         includes in excess of 100,000 nurses. They
distinctly different from plant proteins, even    have been following these nurses for quite a
though there were some differences between        long time now, since about the late 1970s
different animal proteins. So to go back to       and now they have the daughters of these
your question concerning fish and other           nurses too. The study has become very big
animal products to their effect, if we look at    and it has been extensively funded. The last
them in reference just to their protein           time I heard, over $125 million dollars had
content, and on the basis of the studies that     been spent on running that study, but at the
have been done with certain outcomes,             same time they have been very good about
animal foods in general are going to cause        producing a lot of reports of their
problems. But by the same token, this raises      observations in very good journals.
yet another issue, and that is when people               So all that having been said, most
consume more animal foods they consume            people judge the Harvard Nurses‘ Study as
less plant foods in general, and when they        having been quite informative and quite
consume less plant foods they‘re taking           useful; that is the way that the New York
away substances that otherwise would              Times described it, for example. However, I
prevent. So what you get, in a given diet, if     have a pretty serious criticism of the
you try to generalize the whole thing, it‘s the   Harvard Study and that is due to the fact that
relative proportions of animal and plant          virtually all of these nurses are still
based food is going to lead to good or bad        consuming a diet that is rich in animal
things down the road.                             protein. And it‘s true that some of those
                                                  nurses were able to decrease their fat intake
                                                  quite substantially, down to maybe 15-20%
                                                  of total calories compared to others who
                                                  were up to 55-60%. That is a big change.
        It turns out that when these nurses are   also most other case-controlled studies
decreasing their fat intake they‘re actually      that have been done, because most of the
increasing their already high intake of           case-controlled studies have been done on
animal protein. The reason that this happens      western subjects—sort of like comparing
is that they were advised over the years to       people who smoke four packs of cigarettes a
use lean cuts of meat to decrease fat intake,     day with somebody smoking three packs of
to use low fat milk products to decrease their    cigarettes a day. Sometimes, yeah, you drop
fat intake. Well, the lean cuts of meat and       smoking from four packs to three packs in
the dairy, skim milk included of course, are      general, overall, you might see a bit of
foods very high in animal protein and have        benefit, you might see it from time to time
become even higher as a concentration. So         but, overall you probably see a lot of
these nurses as they assume they‘re doing         confusing results; some studies won‘t show
good things—they decrease their fat intake,       any effect. We have just minimized the
but are swapping that so-called benefit, if       ability to detect the kinds of effects that
there is a benefit there, to something that       really are important.
could be even worse. They don‘t see any
change in breast cancer rates. In fact if
anything the rates tend to go up as the nurses
decrease their fat intake. One thing you will     S.J.: Is the natural growth hormone that
see when we study a group of subjects all of      is intended to help calves get big and
whom are doing in general the wrong               strong, the natural growth hormone in
thing—namely consuming a western diet—            milk products, still there in low fat
is that researchers will just tinker with one     products?
thing at a time, like changing the fat intake,
or changing this or changing that. This way       T.C.C.: Yes.
the ability to be able to study the diet in a
consistent comprehensive way is lost. In the
results that they get, just on the basis of       S.J.: So it‟s the type of molecule that gets
statistical probabilities, they might see small   retained along with the proteins in the
changes here or there that might otherwise        milk products.
be beneficial but it‘s hard to detect them in
that kind of milieu, which leads to a lot of      T.C.C.: Right and that is generally true, but
confusing results. In other words, the            a more important thing that you have to
Nurses‘ Health Study does not have the kind       think about that is that the amount of
of people that they really need: people who       hormone activity we have in the body is
are consuming a total plant based diet, low       often times not related to how much we‘re
in fat. Because of this, the researchers can‘t    actually consuming but rather it‘s related to
conjecture and conclude and make                  how much we‘re actually synthesizing in our
comments about what the diet does or              own body. If we consume a diet that
doesn‘t do with any degree of authority           continues to have high animal protein in it,
because they don‘t have the subjects in there     and theoretically, you move to a diet low in
that are likely to be the best responders. It‘s   fat, even a little higher in protein, let‘s
not just the Nurses‘ Health Study but it‘s        assume for the moment that there will be
less hormones being consumed. Well, that       mistake to make that argument, because
is a small amount and probably not terribly    not only does the data not support it, but
significant because the most important thing   when people make that kind of argument
is the quantity of hormones being              then the scientific community and the
synthesized in the body, so-called             regulatory community, in particular, can
endogenous hormone synthesis. Going to         quickly point to alternative studies that show
these low-fat-high-animal-protein-lean cuts    that and they say ‗we don‘t see all these bad
of meat kind of diet, if anything, will just   effects with this little increase in this,‘ and
continue to stimulate hormone production in    they can get away with it. It‘s an argument
the wrong direction.                           that unfortunately is a diversion from
                                               something that is more important. But
                                               having said all that I have to say that for this
S.J.: So the abundant growth factor in         and other reasons, I think that giving cows
milk products doesn‟t make them more           bovine growth hormone has nothing to do
problematic?                                   with health and has everything to do just
                                               stimulating milk production in those cows.
T.C.C.: Yes, on balance I think that we have   It‘s ridiculous to say it can be beneficial to
to agree that there is some possibility this   humans, and for the regulatory agencies to
could be a problem. I think you are            argue that there is no effect only because
probably talking about bovine growth           they don‘t see any obvious effect based on
hormone for example in cow‘s milk. That        assuming a relationship between the
has become commonly used in recent years.      amounts being consumed. If we enrich the
                                               conversation and look at all the effects that
                                               can occur, then you can take away from
S.J.: It doesn‟t have to be added; it‟s        some of the FDA‘s favorite arguments.
naturally there?

T.C.C.: Yes, as far as structures are          S.J.: So the protein stimulates our own
concerned, that kind of hormone is virtually   production of growth hormone?
chemically identical to the human growth
hormone, and as we know, this could be a       T.C.C.: Right, it does.
problem. We‘re absorbing it and, in turn,
the amount in our bodies could increase. If
you look at the proportion of the total        S.J.: And that‟s really at least as
growth hormone level that we have in our       important as the dietary growth hormone
body compared to the amount that we‘re         [intake?]
actually consuming, it‘s a relatively minor
contribution compared to the amount we         T.C.C.: Yes, much more important even. I
synthesize. It‘s an important question         think that saying bovine growth hormone-
because some people will argue that the        laced cow‘s milk is no particular problem is
bovine growth hormone in cow‘s milk is         a false conclusion, even if the data doesn‘t
chiefly responsible for the hormone-like       specifically exist to support the alternative
effects that milk produces. I think it‘s a     argument, it‘s only dealing with part of the
overall effect. I think that it‘s one way that   of passing on immunity into the young.
regulators get around the argument.              All farmers know that calves need to have
                                                 that colostrum for 2 or 3 days as a passive
                                                 immunity kind of phenomenon. Colostrum
S.J.: Steroid rings are very hard to break       is enriched in the protein based antibodies
down in a pasteurization process.                that the mothers produce. Whether the
                                                 colostrum has so much more protein and
T.C.C.: Exactly, and I don‘t think that that     growth hormone, I don‘t know.
kind of heat process is going to destroy the
steroid, that is my guess, but I don‘t know
the numbers.                                     S.J.: Would the antibodies do people any
                                                 good? The bovine antibodies?

S.J.: I have read that during                    T.C.C.: My first guess is no, I don‘t think
homogenization, macro-globules of fat are        so. Because the antibodies are so specific
produced and various substances can              it‘s possible in this particular case if they‘re
survive better protected in those macro-         created to resist certain kinds of organisms
globules of fat, maybe in pasteurization         and a human consumes it, we could also get
and in our digestive acids.                      some benefits, I suppose.

T.C.C.: Sure, I think that‘s entirely
reasonable.                                      S.J.: But it has to be recognized by the
                                                 human immune system as signaling, even
                                                 if they did attach to the antigen, and then
S.J.: Okay, seems plausible at any rate.         the immune system would have to act on
                                                 that signal, so the immune system would
T.C.C.: Yeah.                                    have to be quite analogous in detailed
                                                 molecular ways, to the bovine immune
                                                 system. So maybe it would be more of a
S.J.: Colostrum, the milk produced in the        coincidental effect, just the way bovine
first few days post-partum, contains much        growth hormone is coincidentally
more growth factor and protein than              identical to human growth hormone.
regular milk. We‟re saying that the              Probably not many people have studied
protein is at least as problematic as the        this issue anyway, but what I was getting
growth factor, growth hormone.                   at is a lot of people supplement colostrum,
According to the Physician’s Desk                to build muscle.
Reference there is no credible evidence to
support claims that bovine colostrum             T.C.C.: I didn‘t know they were doing that.
burns fat or builds muscle. Do you agree?        Are they doing that a lot now?

T.C.C.: Gosh, I don‘t know that. It has
always been argued that colostrum‘s real
value has been primarily from the standpoint
S.J.: Some people do. I said a lot of people     think it‘s very similar to growth hormone
but I really don‟t know how many.                in general, to the extent of my knowledge.
                                                 These hormones bind to receptor proteins
T.C.C.: Wow.                                     intracellularly, and are carried to the nucleus
                                                 and turn on all kinds of enzymes and other
                                                 kinds of things which are then, in turn, being
S.J.: People also started supplementing          synthesized by the genes.
whey protein.                                           I think the evidence that you are
                                                 probably referring to is the association
T.C.C.: I was going to say the same thing. I     between estrogen levels in women and risk
mean I have looked at the websites for           of breast cancer. The China Study was
companies that produce whey and boy, talk        really pretty informative on this point, which
about a snake oil salesman. Those people are     was very exciting. We compared using the
advertising whey as the greatest nutritional     same methodology, even the same analysts,
discovery of all time.                           the same laboratory, so we didn‘t have to
                                                 worry about methodology problems. We
                                                 compared rural Chinese women with British
S.J.: Is it possible that whey would have        women living on Guernsey Island, who were
the same effects in promoting diseases as        consuming typical western diets and who
casein?                                          had much higher breast cancer rates. And it
                                                 turns out that the level of estrogen in the
T.C.C.: Yes, definitely.                         British women, western women, was about
                                                 50% higher than that of the rural Chinese
                                                 women. We also found that the age of
S.J.: Any animal protein.                        menarche for western women is somewhere
                                                 around 11 or 12 years, and the age of
T.C.C.: Right, they‘re just really, really       menopause to be about 52 years. In contrast,
stretching the truth. Those claims are just      for the rural Chinese woman, age of
outrageous.                                      menarche on average was about 17 years
                                                 and age. The age of menopause was around
                                                 48 years. In effect, the western woman has
S.J.: By what mechanism does exposure            about 8 or 9 extra years of reproductive life.
to high levels of the hormone estrogen           This is a time in which the estrogen levels in
over long periods greatly increase rates of      the blood are about 50% higher. Do the
cancer in the reproductive system?               calculation; the area under the curve kind of
                                                 thing. You integrate concentration and time
T.C.C.: Well, in this case again, estrogen is    and it turns out the estrogen levels
acting rather like a growth hormone—it           [exposure?] in western women are about 4
comes to the cell, goes to the nucleus, turns    to 5 times higher than in a rural Chinese
on things. It does a whole host of things.       woman who is incidentally consuming a
And incidentally, there are dozens of            plant based diet. And that is just about the
different kinds of estrogens, but the one that   exact same difference you can see in
is most often studied is called estradiol. I     average risk of breast cancer. To take the
next step you can ask, well what relationship     much evidence all converging now, so
is there between breast cancer and estrogen       much evidence.
level? I think that was your original
question. There is a lot of evidence now
showing that having a high exposure to            S.J.: What tissues and glands produce
estrogen over a prolonged period of time, for     estrogen?
many years, in the case of western women
can perhaps have a very direct effect on          T.C.C.: Well fatty tissue does, of course, and
causing breast cancer; it‘s not a good idea.      adipose tissue does. Also, again as I said,
Most likely it‘s a combination of the             there are so many different kinds of
estrogen acting directly on latent cancer         estrogens. The adrenal glands are obviously
cells to cause them to grow faster as well as     a kind of factory for steroid-like material,
to do other more indirect kinds of things.        and I think some other tissues may as well,
While it was very interesting that we got this    although I just can‘t tell you exactly. I think
really tight coupling of estrogen levels over     liver synthesizes some estrogen, I‘m not
all with breast cancer rates in western           sure there either.
women, and the group that we were working
with at the time was headed up by a man by
the name of Malcolm Pike, professor               S.J.: So being composed of fatty tissues,
Malcolm Pike who was a professor of               the breast is particularly at risk?
medicine at the University of Oxford. Now
he‘s at the University of Southern                T.C.C.: And so overweight women have
California. He‘s really a brilliant fellow who    more adipose tissue and produce more
is acknowledged as probably the world‘s           estrogen. That could be the link between
leading expert on estrogen activity. It was       being overweight and breast cancer.
his lab that actually did the analysis for us,
along with a fellow who is now also
becoming very prominent by the name of            S.J.: What foods stimulate our production
Timothy Key at the University of Oxford.          of estrogen?
According to Malcolm Pike, this
relationship between estrogen and breast
cancer is, in his mind, confirmed. You see        T.C.C.: Cow‘s milk is probably the best
western women having much higher rates of         example. Animal foods do for sure.
breast cancer—they start their periods
earlier in life, they end up with higher
                                                  S.J.: Why would cow‟s protein, milk
estrogen levels. All this is occurring because
                                                  protein in general, stimulate estrogen
of the kinds of foods they‘re consuming.
                                                  production more than other types of
Animal protein will increase growth rate
                                                  animal products?
which in turn, turns on the menstrual cycle
earlier in life. The animal protein itself will
then increase estrogen synthesis, even            T.C.C.: Well, I don‘t know how much
during an adult woman‘s life. There is so         difference there is. But to go back to the
                                                  question we had before, milk is constructed,
and if we can think teleologically, it‘s          are antioxidant in nature and so forth. That
constructed as food early in life to create a     almost makes it in a sense a little bit like a
growth kind of environment, which includes        plant; at least it‘s taking a step in that
growth hormones, estrogens and so forth.          direction. Also, the protein of yogurt is
That was the purpose of this kind of food.        being broken down to a great extent, and
       Cow‘s milk is now being shown,             when you get a break down of protein, you
among its many adverse effects, as being          get a synthesis of new antioxidants. It‘s not
related to things like prostate cancer, uterine   surprising, maybe, that you can find yogurt
cancer, and breast cancer: all cancers of the     to be, on some occasions, certainly less
reproductive tract. This is not surprising        offensive than milk.
because cow‘s milk is a fluid that is part of
the reproductive cycle. In the cow, the milk
is a reproductive component. It‘s produced        S.J.: Do you know of any studies that
by a reproductive system, in the mother           have been done?
cow, and is used to support the very young
when they‘re first born. We, then, as a           TTC: No, not on yogurt, let‘s say, and breast
species consume the stuff for the rest of our     cancer.
                                                  S.J.: So of all the animal products, yogurt
S.J.: Would yogurt also be a problem?             might be one…

T.C.C.: I have often said that I don‘t think      T.C.C.: Yeah it‘s one that…
so. Or if there is a problem there it‘s
probably much less.
                                                  S.J.: Would you recommend it for
S.J.: … they do to the protein mainly,
rather than...                                    T.C.C.: No, I wouldn‘t go so far as to
                                                  recommend it, but I think I can say with
T.C.C.: Well, yogurt is interesting. It heard     some confidence that if there is an exception
once a presentation by a fairly noted guy, I      to all animal foods, I would list yogurt as a
think he did his science quite well, who          potential exception. I would also list cold-
reviewed the evidence on yogurt and               water fish as a possible exception, although
presented a lot of information to show that       you‘ve got lots of problems there to have to
yogurt has some real health benefits. At that     think about, the dioxin and the mercury that
time he wasn‘t taking note of some of the         gets in the fish.
adverse effects that we also know about, so
it was kind of hard to sort it out. I was
pretty convinced that yogurt is obviously a       S.J.: Dioxin?
different product from fresh cow‘s milk. It‘s
a fermented product and the fermentation          T.C.C.: Yeah.
process is producing a lot of metabolites that
S.J.: That is also hard to break down            tumor development. So it gets classified as
because of the rings?                            a carcinogen by the EPA for example.

T.C.C.: Exactly, it just doesn‘t…
                                                 S.J.: Wouldn‟t yogurt, I mean it‟s silly to
                                                 talk about yogurt so much, but people do
S.J.: It‟s a poison not a steroid.               eat it for the beneficial bacteria that work
                                                 in the intestines to improve digestion and
T.C.C.: Absolutely. It‘s a really noxious        stimulate even the blood vessel growth in
poison and it‘s persistent in the environment    the intestinal walls. So wouldn‟t yogurt
because nature hasn‘t learned how to deal        also have higher pesticides in it?
with it. It‘s a halogenated compound…
                                                 T.C.C.: It should.

S.J.: Made by people.                                   [Note from S.J.: As does any animal-
                                                 based food, even organic yogurt contains
T.C.C.: Made by people.                          more concentrated PCBs and dioxin than in
                                                 plants. For anyone with health challenges, a
                                                 precautionary approach would be to avoid
S.J.: So we have no defenses what so ever.       all animal-based foods, especially milk
                                                 products. For those without health
T.C.C.: Absolutely.                              challenges, the safest diet is still the strictly
                                                        BTW, the company Wildwood makes
S.J.: And it builds up in every animal.          superb organic unsweetened soy yogurt
                                                 (―Pleasantly Plain Soyogurt‖), advertised as
T.C.C.: Correct.                                 containing active probiotic beneficial
                                                 bacteria. I like it better than any yogurt I‘ve
                                                 ever tasted, including dairy in bygone years,
S.J.: So if we go eating products that           without any of dairy yogurt‘s bitter
include dioxin that has been filtered from       aftertaste. Soyogurt is thick, smooth, with an
the environment to a level that may be           agreeable mildly sour flavor, as a yogurt
thousands of times greater, many                 should have, due to the lactic acid produced
thousands of times greater than in               during effective fermentation by probiotics.
environment, and we store that poison            It works beautifully as sour ―cream‖. Since
then that could result in a problem. It          it contains active probiotics, it can take the
would be a challenge, like any other             place of dairy yogurt. As always with items
challenge to the body that we‟re also            I mention, I have no business association
promoting diseases by our diet.                  with the supplier, in this case Wildwood.]

T.C.C.: Right. I think it‘s a little bit weak,
but there is some experimental evidence to
suggest dioxin can act like a promoter of
S.J.: But the cold water fish with omega-3     depending on how safe you want to
fatty acids for example, would have some       make your diet.
compensatory benefits for the body.
                                               T.C.C.: Right
T.C.C.: Right, exactly.

                                               S.J.: Do phytoestrogens like those from
S.J.: Is that why you said maybe yogurt        soybeans cause problems?
would be one of the less problematic foods
because it has some compensatory effects       T.C.C.: I have been asked that question
and maybe the cold water fish also has         many times and I have been meaning to go
some benefits although a person could get      back and get up to date a little bit more on
omega-3 fatty acids by supplementing a         the literature. But from what I have seen so
DHA, which is one of those acids, sourced      far, the phytoestrogens and their effects are a
from algae.                                    function of dose, just like so many other
                                               things. Unfortunately the discussion of
T.C.C.: Sure.                                  phytoestrogens in the public literature is
                                               really very superficial; they don‘t take that
                                               into consideration. Because phytoestrogens
S.J.: Which would have much less poison        in soy beans at certain doses, the lower
in it because algae are just plants. [My       doses, can really act as anti-estrogens,
error re. plants: Algae belong to a            consuming them at the lower levels can
different kingdom from plants, evolved         actually block either the effects of the
earlier.]                                      estrogen we‘re otherwise producing or the
                                               estrogen we‘re consuming. In that sense
T.C.C.: Or flax seed and soy beans. They all   they‘re beneficial. There is a whole school
have some omega-3s.                            of thought based around the fact that the
                                               phytoestrogens are a good thing not a bad
                                               thing, but then there were some studies that
S.J.: Then the body has to make the long       came along that showed that phytoestrogens
chain omega-3s from the shorter chain          at high levels could have estrogen-like
omega 3s.                                      activity, which is why they‘re called
                                               estrogens. And it could lead to some
T.C.C.: Right                                  adverse reactions. But then that begs the
                                               question: what kind of levels are they
                                               talking about? Very high levels, so it‘s a
S.J.: But the advantage of DHA is that is      dose-response relationship that has to be
already a long chain omega-3. For people       taken into consideration to decide whether
who have decreased ability to make that,       the phytoestrogens are good or bad. It
it‟s good to take a supplement. That is        depends on how much we‘re actually
why a lot of people might need to either       consuming, I think. I sure wouldn‘t want to
eat fish or take a supplement. Whether         take phytoestrogens in pill form.
from fish oil or sourced from algae
                                                 S.J.: Again what foods are probably
                                                 causative with premature puberty? We
S.J.: Concentrated.                              have an epidemic of premature puberty in
                                                 the industrialized world.
T.C.C.: Yeah, concentrated pill form I don‘t
think that is wise. Also I don‘t think that is   T.C.C.: That is certainly true and dairy
wise to over consume soy products. In this       certainly is a major factor. And we‘re
country, we have so many soy products in so      consuming dairy in so many different ways
many different things these days. I can          these days. But we‘re also consuming in
imagine, although we don‘t have the data         this country a diet that is, on average, very
yet, that all that excess soy, especially soy    rich in animal foods. It‘s as rich in animals
protein, maybe somewhat problematic. So          as it has ever been, and it has gradually
my own position on this is, given first off      become richer, which is also a factor. There
my inadequate knowledge of the field, that I     are then other factors, like estrogen
don‘t have enough knowledge about the            disruptors, which seem to be spreading all
details of this. It‘s also, I think, based on    over the world. In this case we‘re talking
common sense. When we over consume               about dioxin and other related compounds
things we get into problems, that is sort of a   like that. There is some pretty good evidence
given. And as far as the amount of soy that      showing that exposure to these halogenated
some people are consuming these days, it‘s       chemicals in the environment and various
10 to 15 times higher than countries like        and sundry places do cause problems at least
China, where soy has been a native food for      in wildlife. They do, in the laboratory, cause
centuries. They didn‘t consume it that way.      pretty     serious    problems     with    the
So I don‘t know the answer to the question. I    reproductive system, so that you can see
think that consumed in reasonable amounts,       birth defects and sperm count in men
soy is a very good food. I think edamame         supposedly decreased by 50% world wide.
are very delicious, first off, and now we        The rate of decline world wide, according to
know about the omega-3s, they have got to        a book that I read not too long ago, would
be a good food, just like peas and beans and     suggest that in about another 30 to 50 years,
many other things. It‘s just that we mash it     men will have no function. So then what is
all up and make all these other products, and    the human race going to become?
eat it in about 50 different ways everyday,
with extra salt and fat added sometimes.
                                                 S.J.: I‟ll ask about impotence later.

S.J.: It‟s no longer health food.
                                                 Tape 2 (Interview 1b)
T.C.C.: Yeah, I think we‘re getting out of
the territory of health food when we‘re
doing that.                                      S.J.: What effect does premature puberty
                                                 have on physical growth to optimal

T.C.C.: It‘s associated with the attainment of   thing is when you take children who are
one‘s goal height at an earlier age. With        consuming a good vegan diet—lots of whole
early puberty, kids are growing faster. They     vegetables, whole fruits, whole grains,
reach adult height more or less early on,        exercise, sunshine and all that—those kinds
which is associated with increased risk of       of kids will grow to achieve the same height,
breast cancer and uterine cancer; there is no    they will just take longer to get there. The
question about that. They become bigger          growth spurts amongst the vegan children
earlier.                                         may occur on into 18, 19, 20, and 21 years
                                                 of age.

S.J.: But they don‟t get taller than they
might have gotten…                               S.J.: I‟m getting confused, were you
                                                 saying earlier that children who eat milk
T.C.C.: That‘s generally true, although milk     products get taller on average?
consuming populations seem to be bigger
people.                                          T.C.C.: They get taller sooner.

S.J.: A lot of people value that and want        S.J.: But they don‟t get taller then they
to have their children be bigger, taller.        would have otherwise?

T.C.C.: Right. Holland is a country that         T.C.C.: That is generally true. What I also
consumes the most dairy and has the highest      said though is that I am reminded of the fact
rate of breast cancer of any country in the      that if you go to populations that consume a
world. I gave a talk just on this to that        lot of dairy their overall stature seems to be
group, and got blasted in the Amsterdam          a little bit higher. I don‘t know, it‘s possible
Times newspaper, by the way.                     that people consuming a very rich animal
                                                 protein diet like with dairy, not only will
                                                 they get taller sooner but they actually are
S.J.: Having a great number of                   really pushing the limit as to how tall they
advertisers from the dairy industry.             can be. Incidentally, height is associated
                                                 with breast cancer. We know that overall
T.C.C.: Yes, Holland and the Netherlands         stature is another risk factor.
export a lot of diary products; it‘s very
important to their export business.
                                                 S.J.: For the reasons we have been
S.J.: So what would you say to parents
who want their children to grow taller?          T.C.C.: Yes, but to come back to that point,
                                                 I just want to say that vegan children, who
T.C.C.: I think that they‘re doing it at some    are always accustomed to consuming vegan
potential cost for the future of their           food and growing that way, will attain the
children‘s health. But the other interesting     height that their genetics allow very nicely.
We‘re watching some experiments in               creating information, I guess, is just to do
progress right now with our grandchildren,       the best I can to present the information for
who have not touched dairy or milk or            people to make wise choices.
anything like that from birth.

S.J.: Have formal studies been done on           S.J.: People may feel that if they had to
vegan children?                                  change everything in their lives, give up
                                                 all animal products in all foods and also
T.C.C.: Some, not that many.                     get rid of all animal products in their
                                                 household and from their clothing they‟d
                                                 feel, “Well gee, I can‟t do that so I am not
S.J.: There are not very many in the             going to do any of that. I‟m just going to
percentage of the population anyway.             continue as I am.” How do you feel about
                                                 that approach?
T.C.C.: Yeah, but there are also not that
many studies and researchers haven‘t             T.C.C.: Exactly. Personally, I mean I
followed them long enough. There is a            wouldn‘t do that. We only have so many
group down in Summertown, Tennessee that         opportunities for doing things in our lives.
have been followed for some time.                We can‘t overload ourselves with so much
                                                 concern, so many decisions we have to make
                                                 continuously. I don‘t think that approach is
S.J.: So let me just define vegan—the diet       very wise.
doesn‟t contain any eggs, milk products,
meat, poultry, or fish, would you add
anything to that definition?                     S.J.: It‟s not necessary to consider
                                                 extreme changes if one can do whatever
T.C.C.: No, except vegan people, of course,      one chooses to do to improve the diet, you
they don‘t wear any kind of leather, or          don‟t have to wear plastic shoes for
animal based products on their body.             example.

                                                 T.C.C.: Right, my point is if others want to
S.J.: How do you feel about that                 that it‘s fine.

T.C.C.: Out of personal choice, and if there     S.J.: But you don‟t want to put people off
is anything that I value more than somebody      by saying „plastic shoes are mandatory‟.
listening to me, it‘s their personal freedom
to make their choices. And if people want to     T.C.C.: Right, I wouldn‘t do that.
make choices to consume really bad food,
it‘s their choice. I am not the kind of person
that wants to proselytize and push people        S.J.: The immune system not only fights
very hard. I think my role in life, as another   off invading organisms but can also
human being, since I am in the business of       destroy and reabsorb cancer cells. In
what ways do animal based foods impact            S.J.: Well the intestines are designed, or
the immune system?                                have evolved to protect the body from
                                                  pernicious influences, so how do allergens
T.C.C.: Well, as we know the immune               get into the blood stream?
system is enormously complex and that is an
understatement. There are so many parts to        T.C.C.: Well, they seem to at least when the
the immune system and when we start               intestine is not healthy or the intestine is still
looking at the role of various nutrient           too immature. In the very early stages of the
intakes that are characterized by whether         infant‘s life, many tissues are just sort of
they‘re present in animal or plant-based          completing the process of becoming mature,
foods, we tend to see things from animal          and some infants‘ ability to block, let‘s say,
based foods that would compromise the             the absorption of these kinds of things is
immune system in various ways. Natural            somewhat compromised for whatever
killer cells, to give an example from our         reason. They have a so called leaky gut
own laboratory, are involved in basically         phenomenon, which can be a serious
scavenging supposed early cancer cells.           problem for some infants.
Having good natural killer cell activity is
important, but rats fed the higher casein
levels had lower natural killer cell activity,    S.J.: Meaning that the contents of the gut
and that is just one component. The               leak into the body.
literature, of course, has gone far, far beyond
that. Many things have been worked on             T.C.C.: Exactly. In other words, the contents
over the years in the last 10 years or so in      of the gut seem to kind of just passively leak
this rapidly developing field. And as I look      into body instead of going through the usual
at the literature myself, there are a whole       process of digestion and controlled
host of mechanisms by which protein can           absorption.
operate, not just on natural killer cell
activity, but also on the formation of
antibodies and things like that, that in turn     S.J.: And just imagine how much damage
can relate to autoimmune diseases as well as      that can do when you consider what is in
the typical allergic responses that we see.       the gut.
Along those lines, I just recently had the
occasion to see how much consensus there          T.C.C.: Exactly, so people with Crohn‘s
was in the literature regarding cow‘s milk        disease, I think, and other kinds of intestinal
and allergic responses, which is the immune       issues especially intestinal parasites for
phenomenon. I am finding that even among          example can have their immune system
those who tend to be defenders of cow‘s           seriously compromised. An important part
milk, people will admit that it‘s the single      of the immune system is actually in the gut.
most common food allergen we‘re
consuming. I think that is quite a striking

S.J.: So what role do foods play in the          of like taking the fiber out and using it as
etiology of Crohn‟s disease? Colitis,            supplement or to fortify food. God knows
enteritis?                                       what kind of crystalline characteristics that
                                                 fiber may have, so you end up with
T.C.C.: When I look at the literature for        something that is unnatural at a very
much of this stuff, there seems to be some       minimum. It‘s not surprising to see that it
serious disagreement as to how much of a         may have some problems.
role food really plays in the etiology of
Crohn‘s disease. Irritable bowel syndrome
comes in that cluster of diseases, obviously,    S.J.: Phytonutrients are found only in
and colon cancer as well. There are some         plant based foods. In what ways do
who believe it plays an important role, and      phytonutrients impact the immune
so they will say for example that cow‘s milk     system?
is a problem and a plant based diet is a good
thing to do; high fiber intake is necessary.     T.C.C.: Well phytonutrients, the word phyto
But then there are others, and this is more      meaning plants of course, in large measure
the traditional view, who believe that the       are antioxidant in nature. That is the first
high fiber diet is not good, people with         thought that occurs to me and of course
Crohn‘s should basically avoid it. So I see      having antioxidant properties, obviously, is
claims on both sides of the fence. I happen      very important. That is also very helpful in
to have met a professor at the University of     maintaining a healthy immune system. Now
Cambridge in England by the name of              again, you might ask how exactly does that
Hunter who was one of the prominent              work? I am sure that there are multiple
researchers on this, and he was getting some     different ways, and I don‘t know them all
good results by taking Crohn‘s patients and      and I am sure that science hasn‘t yet
putting them on a high fiber plant based diet,   discovered all the ways.
which is almost in the opposite direction
from many of his colleagues. And that was
                                                 S.J.: Not much money for research in that
at least 12-15 years ago when I met this
                                                 T.C.C.: No, but what we see so far is
S.J.: You‟re not talking about                   interesting. Antioxidants are largely found
concentrated fibers like a bran cereal that      among phytonutrients. I mean I have to say
might irritate—the sharp edges of the            the word phytonutrients is a useful term. It
bran might irritate the intestines—that‟s        was invented only in the last couple of
a problem, but you are talking about a lot       decades and it‘s almost like an obvious word
of softer fibers, soft fibers and whole          to invent, saying phytonutrients sounds
unrefined foods.                                 fancy, but, in reality, it‘s just the chemicals
                                                 in plants that do things.
T.C.C.: That‘s true. What you are also
saying when you talk about irritants, is sort

S.J.: There are thousands of them?               S.J.: But how can you be so certain?

T.C.C.: Yes        hundreds   of   thousands     T.C.C.: Well, one of the reasons I have
probably.                                        become so certain, I guess, reasonably
                                                 certain, is that when you do see the results
                                                 that are being published, there are bits of
S.J.: How does the color of a vegetable          information that just fit within this larger
indicate its content of phytonutrients?          framework. I don‘t see the opposite. I don‘t
                                                 see phytonutrients, unless they‘re really
T.C.C.: Well, colored vegetables, of course      given in strange doses or some thing,
you know this from your chemistry, are           coming along and actually having a negative
going to have all these pigmented chemicals      effect on immune responses. Maybe the
that, when you stick them in a                   classic case where that did occur was with
spectrophotometer, you can see the color         beta-carotene.
and you can read the UV spectrum and so
forth. You find that the characteristics of
these different color chemicals turn out to be   S.J.: As a supplement.
very similar to the chemical characteristic
that give them the ability to impede             T.C.C.: Yeah, but it was given to people for
oxidation, so they act as antioxidants.          8 years in one case and multiple years in two
Antioxidant activity and color tend to focus     other studies as a means of preventing lung
on much of the same chemical structure.          cancer.
Plants with color in them are good, and now
you are actually hearing people say make
sure you consume everyday foods of each of       S.J.: So to get the benefit you have got to
let‘s say 4, 5, or 6 different colors—green,     eat the whole veggie?
yellow, purple, red, blue.
                                                 T.C.C.: Exactly.

S.J.: So colorful veggies can support
immune function to improve health                S.J.: Not in one bite.
including the body‟s response to cancer?
                                                 T.C.C.: Right
T.C.C.: Yes, definitely.
                                                 S.J.: What do you think of the studies
S.J.: Although the detailed research as to       showing that a component of milk called
the mechanisms for that has not been             conjugated linoleic acid or CLA given as a
studied extensively?                             drug may reduce risk of cancer?

T.C.C.: Exactly.                                 T.C.C.: I don‟t think much of that research
                                                 at all. I know the history of that field quite
                                                 well from my own personal experiences and
it really arose because the dairy and meat       industry and Monsanto to start with, and it
industries were trying to find some way to       was reported on by people who were great
counter this concern that was arising about      defenders of the product.
consuming milk and meat. They came up
with this compound CLA or conjugated
linoleic acid that does occur in the rumen of    S.J.: Well, it‟s sold in supplement form.
cows being fed linoleic acid, commonly
found in corn and corn oil. Cows fed lots of     T.C.C.: I heard that.
linoleic acid are going to form more
conjugated linoleic acid and linoleic acid
conversion to conjugated linoleic acid is        S.J.: I saw it on the web.
occurring largely through the bacteria
microflora in the lumen. So if you add more      T.C.C.: You did?
linoleic acid you get more conjugated
linoleic acid that in turn gets into the blood
and in come rather narrowly focused and          S.J.: Who knows what that means, but
rather specious kinds of experiments done        that is where I got that info.
on experimental animals.
                                                 T.C.C.: Well I heard that it was going down
                                                 that path. I think that is really dangerous. I
S.J.: By specious you mean?                      was a severe critic of that work in the
                                                 beginning because I happened to know a
T.C.C.: By that I mean narrowly focused out      committee where that first was discussed, a
of context.                                      committee supported by the dairy and meat
                                                 industries, and one of their other main
                                                 activities was to try to name people in the
S.J.: And for that reason specious?              field who might be a threat to them. They
                                                 named 7 or 9 researchers around the United
T.C.C.: Yes, designed for other objectives.      States who potentially could be a threat and
But it was found that you can design             I had the dubious distinction of being named
experiments a certain way to show that           twice. And so then they assigned to these 7
conjugated linoleic acid blocked, for            members as individuals people who took the
example, the metabolism of chemical              responsibility of watching these dangerous
carcinogens that otherwise might cause           researchers. I knew they were watching over
cancer. You get the conjugated linoleic acid     me and the China Project because that was
first and then you get the carcinogen and        considered to be a dangerous project. And
you can reduce the amount of the tumors          that was even before the China Project was
that will form. And so, as a result it was       even talked about in the media.
called an anticarcinogen. Well that‘s very
exciting, my gosh! Give cows more corn oil
and they make more conjugated linoleic           S.J.: What was meant by dangerous in
acid; it gets into the milk and now milk can     this context?
be anticancer. It was all funded by the dairy
T.C.C.: That I was likely to get results         the name of the individual who did this I
which were going to be threatening to their      know him personally. He started the CLA
products.                                        work and I attended 3 of his presentations
                                                 when he first started reporting on that. He
                                                 didn‘t know what I knew about him. And I
S.J.: The sales of their products.               simply asked questions and pointed out how
                                                 ridiculous his work was from the floor when
T.C.C.: Yeah, and so the China Project was       Q&A time came. I could never get him to
one thing.                                       answer my questions, but I know I kind of
                                                 put him on the spot.
                                                        And in the other case, it had to do
S.J.: It‟s like having a black list.             with my help to organize and play a major
                                                 role actually in getting the American
T.C.C.: It was. It was a black list. And I was   Institute for Cancer Research going. In that
on the black list and I was listed twice. And    case, the guy was a guy I knew well, who
the person who was going to look after the       was on the panel that I chaired for giving out
China Project is the one who also started the    funds.
CLA work.

                                                 S.J.: What is it like trying to conduct
S.J.: So they regarded your studies as           scientific research with these kinds of
legitimate and objectively set up and            political clouds whirling around your
possibly or maybe even likely to bring up        head?
results that might be harmful to their
sales.                                           T.C.C.: It‘s bad. It‘s no fun.

T.C.C.: Exactly.
                                                 S.J.: Has it been a distraction for you?

S.J.: Which maybe you have.                      T.C.C.: Yes it has, it has been a distraction.
                                                 Sometimes I wish I hadn‘t spent as much
T.C.C.: Which I have. They were right. But       time as I did on that sort of nonsense.
they wanted to learn as much as they could
about this impending China Project at the
time, which was in the mid-80s, so that by       S.J.: You were on committees yourself.
the time it came out they would have a news
release for results of this kind ready to go,    T.C.C.: Yeah, I was on committees, but at
hot off the burner. It would be released at      the same time when people do things like
the time and raise serious questions either      send a letter around to 36 people in
about the investigation or about the funding     Washington—leading officials like the
or about something else. They would have         Commissioner of the FDA, and Senator
some time to think about it and how to do        Kennedy, and the head of NIH, and all
this. And it was all done secretly and I know    together 36 people—making the claim in
there that I had pocketed $20,000 of my          me because I had good answer, to say
NIH grant money for myself.                      your question is ridiculous, or something
                                                 like that. It really worked and I know in
                                                 cases in this country, I had gotten involved
S.J.: How did you clear your name?               like that maybe writing a letter or calling up,
                                                 picking up the phone and calling somebody
T.C.C.: In that case, I didn‘t bother that       and saying ‗you don‘t know what you are
much, I was working at the American              talking about, I‘m in science and will tell
Institute for Cancer Research and so they        you that you are absolutely wrong and if you
were coming under serious attack because I       continue, if you persist there are going to be
was associated with them. And the Justice        problems.‘ I did some of that kind of stuff,
Department in some cases, the Attorney           on behalf of the organization, but for myself,
General‘s Offices, the Post Office               personally, it was a distraction yes, it was a
Department in different states, were bringing    pretty serious distraction at times. I guess I
them under—really challenging them for           did all kinds of things but for the most part I
things—and Ann Landers sat on the Board          tried to ignore it.
of the American Cancer Society at the time.
She got involved every year in March when
the cancer month came along and she would        S.J.: Regarding the financial accusations
make some statement about the American           did you supply the income and loss?
Institute for Cancer Research being a
scurrilous organization just because it was      T.C.C.: I didn‘t go that far in one case, there
focused on diet. I wrote to her and just         was an investigation of me in Washington
basically told her lay off, she didn‘t know      organized by a couple of individuals in our
what she was talking about.                      professional society.
        And in some cases in Britain, the
same thing occurred there. When aid
organizations were getting going in London,      S.J.: Of nutritionists?
I had helped them a lot, and they had the
equivalent of 60 Minutes there, and that was     T.C.C.: Yeah, American Institute of
really going to do a number on the               Nutrition, that is the key professional
organization and destroy them once and for       society, and I was very active in that society,
all. So I was called over, when the television   in fact, I had just been nominated by the
crew interviewed the president, and I know       committee to be the president. Then this
her very well, and they were going to come       disgruntled group was angry and they made
in and attack her on a lot of frivolous stuff.   a petition to the board of directors to have
And so I was there, sitting at her side, so      me investigated. Sitting on the board of
when they asked her a question they didn‘t       directors was the head of nutrition for the
want me to sit there. But she insisted that I    FDA, Dr. Alan Forbes, and so I had to go to
had to be there. And so they were being a        Washington and in the basement of Dr.
little bit more cautious because she‘s not a     Forbes and go through this grilling nonsense
scientist, but every time they questioned her    and I just basically told him, ―all those
with something about science she turned to       charges are ridiculous, and if you persist and
go further on this I am just going to tell        S.J.: They backed off.
reporters what you are doing.‖
                                                  T.C.C.: I had a lot of these kinds of
                                                  experiences and it did cause me problems at
S.J.: What he was doing? What do you              times. I don‘t know how you fight these
mean by that?                                     things because that one time, there were four
                                                  of us who had been attacked and there was
T.C.C.: Well he was not the one sitting as a      going to be a class action suit against us,
judge, so to speak. But the ones who were         who were sort of touting this line. There
making the accusation, they wanted to have        was myself, there was a woman who was the
me thrown out of the society, make a big          Executive Director of the Food and
deal out of it. And in fact the petition did go   Nutrition Board—her husband was the US
before the board and there were 8 members         Ambassador to Hungary at the time, very
on that board, two of the members of the          prominent fellow himself—and then there
board were from Cornell, obviously knew           was a woman who was a professor at
me very well, and they recused themselves         Columbia University Teachers College, Joan
from the deliberations. But they knew me          Gussow—she had published, been an author
long enough to know that I was not doing          of a couple books—and the fourth one was
that nonsense. And I am sure privately they       the Director of the Diet and Cancer Program
must have said something. They didn‘t vote.       at the National Cancer Institute, Peter
But the vote on that board at that time was 6     Greenwald.
to nothing in my favor. And of course the                And the four of us had been on record
ones who were bringing the accusation left,       raising questions about the way we eat. I
disgruntled.                                      was I guess the most active of the bunch,
                                                  and they really went after us and started
                                                  saying public things. And so four of us got
S.J.: And they didn‟t ask you for your
                                                  together—largely as a result of this woman‘s
cash inflow/ out flow statements?
                                                  husband who was ambassador, Martin
                                                  Palmer, and he had some money in his
T.C.C.: They didn‘t because they knew that        background, he helped us out—so we all had
this was a false charge.                          dinner together at the Mayflower Hotel in
                                                  Washington to discuss this. We were
                                                  thinking about counter-suing and just
S.J.: They didn‟t even bother asking for
                                                  making a big issue out of it so the public
                                                  could get to know what these clowns were
                                                  up to. We talked about it, and I was ready to
T.C.C.: No. I had a pretty good reputation        go forward, but two of them, the head of the
for my integrity, and they just respected that    National Cancer Institute Diet and Cancer
and basically said [to the others] go away.       Program, Peter Greenwald, and also the
Get lost.                                         woman, this guys wife who was at the
                                                  National Academy of Science at the time,
                                                  those two had very important public
positions and if they joined me and the          which it works… The research money that
woman from Columbia in bringing this             is actually given out by the National
collective suit, they probably would have to     Institute of Health, for example, is public
step aside their government positions at that    money. The process by which people are
time until the case was resolved. And we         chosen—you know, put in an application,
thought it over and they decided they didn‘t     get the money—that I know very well
want to do that, so we didn‘t go through         because I have been a reviewer of that too
with it, but we came close.                      on some of these panels. The process is
       I kept a file, and it kept growing and    quite good, it‘s done as best as they can to
growing, I called it the garbage file, really    try to get a good through review of these
two big files, overstuffed manila folders,       applications and give the money to the
they got pretty thick, keeping letters and all   people most deserving. And the people
kinds of stuff, and I said someday I am          actually doing these reviews are also
going to write a book, I am going to say         honorable people. So you say well what‘s
something about this stuff.                      wrong, well what‘s wrong are the decisions
                                                 at a higher level. To say NIH is going to
                                                 focus on drugs, on drug development,
S.J.: And so you have, with the China            they‘re not going to put money into
Study book.                                      nutrition. So there are no grants to review
                                                 because there is no money there.
T.C.C.: I have but I‘ve told only just a small
part of some of the things I know. I don‘t
know, I am now unfortunately pretty cynical      S.J.: NIH has no facility dedicated to
about what I have seen. So I keep asking         nutrition, no department; it‟s spread
myself. Sometimes I think I don‘t want to        among all the departments of NIH. So
do anymore, I don‘t want to write anymore        there is no focus, it‟s like a shot gun blast
stuff, I don‘t want to do anything.              approach rather than a targeted, much
                                                 more effective approach, there is no
                                                 synergy between the different studies on
S.J.: You mean about the way the                 nutrition. And those studies only
government…                                      represent some 2 or 3 percent, some small
                                                 percentage of NIH budget.
T.C.C.: The way the industry has infected
the government process of organizing             T.C.C.: Exactly. So we don‘t get research
policy, something I have been very deeply        focus, the policy is disoriented, and
involved in. Or the way that the industry        disrupted, and distorted. And there is
works behind the scenes in influencing           another somewhat different kind of scenario
academic research institutions and Cornell       where the chairs of these committees these
cannot be excused. Cornell has had a very        days are consultants for the industry. They
serious conflict. And in the meanwhile the       get away with it and hide it. Recently, I was
public gets ripped off and most of the           part of a process where by the PCRM in
research that is done in this country is         Washington actually sued the Dietary
probably taxpayer money and the way in           Guidelines Committee just to get access to
the conflict of interest statements that are      mandate is to create more drugs. So I am
supposed to be readily available to the           not sure it‟s much of a gain.
public, had to go to court to get this
information. And I thought that probably
would fail because I was so cynical at the        S.J.: So from frying pan to the fire and vice
time, but it turned out the judge was a           versa.
reasonable fellow, and eight months later he
ordered those records to be released. But I       T.C.C.: The USDA is protecting the
know in one case, one of those records was        livestock and beef industry, NIH is one to
incomplete. But who is going to follow that       promote drugs, one of them is trying to make
up, these kind of things go on and the public     you sick the other is trying to make us well
doesn‘t have a clue. If I tell this story to an   through drugs. I think what needs to be done
audience, which I do from time to time, a lot     is something like a trust fund that LBJ,
of people say ―well, we know it‘s all a           Lyndon Johnson, actually one time
mess.‖ But I think it‘s a really serious          suggested. Have a trust fund, the money
problem. What do you do about it? What            comes in there, you get a big trust and it
would you do about this, I am just curious,       survives independently and the public then
in a case like this?                              gets access to information, people can
                                                  expect a little more reasonableness.

S.J.: Well for example, regarding the
school lunch program, I would reassign it.        S.J.: What is your opinion of the nutrition
                                                  guidelines, as they’re presently issued by
T.C.C.: Yes. That is one recommendation           the USDA?
that hasn‘t been made. Exactly.
                                                  T.C.C.: Well, in the most recent addition
                                                  they just added more confusion; it has
S.J.: With the health and nutrition               always been an instrument to create
guidelines, they’re currently issued by the       confusion in my view. If you look at the
United States Department of Agriculture,          previous editions of the food dietary
perhaps the responsibility for the                guidelines, they focus on the numbers of
guidelines should be transferred to the           servings of this, that, and everything else.
National Institutes of Health.                    They also will tell you what‟s the serving
                                                  size, and I would dare say that not one
T.C.C.: Of course, but keep in mind that has      percent of the people in this country know
been recommended from time to time.               the numbers of servings they should have for
                                                  anything really and they certainly don‟t
                                                  know the serving size and furthermore even
S.J.: It would be better than the USDA.           if they did, they don‟t adhere to it. But that
                                                  created a great sense of, in my view,
T.C.C.: Presumably, but the National              confusion. People would counter that
Institutes of Health is drug oriented. Their      argument by saying, „well schools and other
                                                  large institutions, they need to know
numbers of serving and sizes, it helps them
put together their big plans‟. But that
doesn‟t cut the ice with me; I think people      S.J.: So perhaps the School Lunch
have been confused. In the most recent           Program, should get reassigned from the
addition, they added one new layer of            USDA to either the Department of Human
confusion, and I think a lot of it‟s             Services or Department of Education?
intentional. Now, instead of having one
pyramid for everybody, now you can go on         T.C.C.: Yeah it might be better in the
the web and everybody can have their own         Department of Education. I am really
pyramid. You can plug in your weight, and        serious about this idea. It comes back to a
your size, and your age, and your gender,        purely fundamental question in my view—I
and you can create your own pyramid. So          tend to assume that health should be a right
now it‟s open game.                              not a privilege. I have thought this ever
                                                 since I was a kid, even before I got in
                                                 science. I think it should be a right not a
S.J.: What principles are followed by the        privilege. And by that I mean everybody
National School Lunch Program, that              should be provided the information, the best
feeds about 40 million of our children?          information possible, where by they can
                                                 make their own choices. Now having said
T.C.C.: I actually think now about 50 some       that you say „well, how does that work?‟
million have access to it but actually only      That is why I am serious about this idea of
20, about half, 27-28 million actually use it.   having a trust fund. And Lyndon Johnson
In any case, what is my view of the School       touched on that after he left office in a
Lunch Program? It‟s a disaster; it‟s just an     speech that he gave, not a well known
unmitigated disaster. It‟s nothing more than     speech, but I read it—a speech that he gave
a program to dispose of the subsidized food      to pharmaceutical company executives. And
products, like milk and meat. Farmers are        it was really interesting because he came
being subsidized by the government to            with some charts and he pointed out in there
produce things often in excess and so this       how the 500 largest pharmaceutical
material then, they have to do something         companies in the country, if they didn‟t pay
with it.                                         taxes for 3 years and they took that money
                                                 and put it in a trust fund, in three years time
                                                 we could have a trust fund large enough that
S.J.: When you say farmers, you’re mainly        it would sustain research and education
talking about agribusiness, huge                 information at a level of about 5.7 or 6 % of
companies not small family farms so              the GNP forever. And then in that case the
much?                                            organizers of this, the people who run this
                                                 would not be the industry, they would be
T.C.C.: Exactly, I still have great admiration   people like Greenspan at the Federal
for the small family farmer. There is a great    Reserve or the TBA Authority, you put
culture but unfortunately they have little to    people in for long appointments. They make
do with food production these days, it‟s the     sure the information is properly organized
big agribusiness moguls.                         and research is possibly funded the right
way. I just thought that that was a brilliant   make their own decision and if their
speech that Johnson made, but he also           decision is to go to the doctor and get advice
pointed out to these executives at that time,   from the doctor and the doctor says ‗you
he said „I know I am looking at you, you will   should do this‘, well it‘s up to that person to
never allow this to happen, because you         decide whether or not to listen. I simply say
control NIH‟ and he said „you know it and I     that we have some scientific evidence that
know it.‟ You know how LBJ talked, that is      indicates that there are alternative methods
what he said. And so many of these              for doing the same thing. And there are a
questions that we now think are so serious,     number of people who actually are doing
they‟re all interconnected. And I think we      that now and getting good results. So I
need some fundamental structural changes        don‘t say more than that, because I don‘t
in the way in which information is created,     want to go out and advocate that people not
the way in which we develop policy, the way     listen to their doctors. I don‘t think that is
in which research is funded. Because right      my position to really do that, but I would
now the whole system is structured to           urge individuals to get as much information
service the corporate sector, and they know     as they could, get second opinions. I get
it, everybody knows it.                         calls all the time, from people who have
                                                some serious problem. Right now one
                                                person unfortunately, a former student, has
S.J.: Can a vegan diet not only act as a        glaucoma. It‘s very serious, he doesn‘t have
preventative but also help the body             money, he wants to try this method.
shrink a tumor or beat back metastatic          Somebody else has got some other
cancer without chemo or radio therapy?          condition; I don‘t know why they keep
                                                calling me but people probably figure I‘ve
T.C.C.: I think so. And I am going to say I     got some contacts in something like this. I
think so. It‘s based on some fragmentary        just always say, ‗I‘m not a doctor. Just go
evidence so far produced, whether it‘s          get a second opinion.‘ That is always my
experimental animals or in the case of some     basic advice, get a second opinion.
human data it‘s very clear it looks like that
is so. I think it really would.
                                                S.J.: Could plant based foods help the body
                                                deal with any harmful effects of chemo and
S.J.: Should a person heed the advice of a      radio therapy, with some of the harmful
doctor who insists on chemo and radio           effects?
                                                T.C.C.: Well that is a good question and I
T.C.C.: I don‘t want to go on record to say     am not sure that it would. I am speaking
that they should not heed advice, because if    about chemotherapy agents, they‟re
I did I could actually be tried, found guilty   cytotoxic and quite active. And they become
of practicing medicine against the best         cytotoxic because of being metabolized by
interest of the medical community, because      the drug metabolism enzyme system.
people like me have been arrested for this.
But I have to say that everybody has to
S.J.: Cytotoxic means?                                case will help to dispose of these cytotoxic
                                                      agents and thereby in theory reduce the side
T.C.C.: Kills cells.                                  effects that otherwise would occur.

S.J.: Poisonous to cells.                             S.J.: Higher protein intake.

T.C.C.: Yeah and the metabolites are                  T.C.C.: Higher protein intake is beneficial
usually quite reactive, electrophilic in              in that case.
nature, perhaps and they bind to important
molecules and kill the cell. And so these
cytotoxic agents—which are known,                     S.J.: Well does it matter what kind of
incidentally, to have some carcinogenic               protein?
properties themselves, because people after
taking those drugs, then later if they survive        T.C.C.: Well at that time it was casein that
they‟re at higher risk for getting certain            we were using. In that case, the higher
cancers often times in a similar site. And the        casein intake would actually help in theory,
theoretical interest in using cytotoxic drugs         for people taking cytotoxic drugs. But that
is let it go in there let it attack the tumor         is a real paradox because on the one hand it
tissue itself if possible, all by itself, and let‟s   helps to dispose of the excess drug that you
eliminate all the side effects. And so they           don‟t want around, but on the other hand it
want cytotoxic drugs to be targeted, and              tends to also reduce the activation of that
there have been lots of efforts made to               drug when it‟s administered. So therefore
deliver those drugs to that site. There are           you are delivering a less effective dose to the
some pretty interesting ideas, we‟ve got              tumor tissue so on balance what do you get?
molecules that can deliver vectors, if you            It‟s a real paradox.
will, to deliver to the site, so it sounds pretty
good. And so they don‟t want any of those
                                                      S.J.: You‟re not talking about something
cytotoxic agents to spill over and cause all
                                                      that is going to help deal with the cancer
the side effects like cancer patients might
                                                      itself but only talking about something
get. Now one way you can stop that in
                                                      that is going to ameliorate the effects of
theory is make sure all the excess cytotoxic
                                                      the cytotoxic drugs.
agent gets metabolized and disposed of. It
turns out that the enzyme system responsible
for doing that is the same enzyme system              T.C.C.: Exactly. Exactly. In the literature,
that activates them to attack the cancer cell.        drug companies were very interested in my
And that enzyme system, the so-called drug            work in those days and had me write up a
metabolism enzyme system, that‟s where I              big review, it was published in 1975 and
spent 25 years working fairly intensively, in         invited me to some different things, with
the early part of my career. That enzyme              that view in mind. But they wanted to take
system is greatly influenced by nutrient              that idea and develop it into a big market
intake. And so high protein intake in that            opportunity.

S.J.: In fact as you’ve said, the casein           the problem with that is I can see a down
would cause cells to reproduce more                side to it. The cytotoxic drug goes in, hits
rapidly, cancer cells.                             the cancer cells, and if you don‟t get rid of
                                                   all of it, one of the things it does do, and this
T.C.C.: Yes, of course.                            is well known, those cytotoxic drugs,
                                                   chemotherapy agents, they really play havoc
                                                   with the immune system. And so cancer
S.J.: While mitigating the effects of a drug,      patients, their immune system goes to pot in
casein may increase the proliferation of           a hurry, with those kind of drugs. So now
cancer.                                            you let the drug come in, kill some cancer
                                                   cells, then it messes up the immune system,
T.C.C.: Right, it‟s one of the paradoxes that      then you come back and feed a plant-based
sometimes you run into when you are                diet to try to restore the immune system
thinking in a very reductionist way like that.     right, if you can. It‟s really tricky.
And so it was one of the things that kind of
stimulated me to think, how can we be
playing around with nature and always have         S.J.: What would you do if you were
to worry about these tradeoffs? I don‟t think      challenged by cancer?
nature is made for tradeoffs, there has to be
another natural order of things that would         T.C.C.: I would go do a water-only fast. No
be a better way to do it. I think it has some      hesitation. I would do a water-only fast. My
rational basis.                                    life style and diet‟s about as good as we can
                                                   get it, I think, it obviously can‟t be prefect
                                                   and maybe I have got some residual cancers
S.J.: Could people challenged by cancer            growing in me that I picked up years ago
take a complimentary approach and use              and maybe I slowed them down a whole lot
either chemo or radio therapy and change           and eventually they‟ll get me some day. So I
their diets to emphasis more plant based           also have learned quite a lot of information
foods, with the plant based foods helping to       about these water-only fasts, they‟re pretty
stimulate the immune system and in other           remarkable.
ways acting in a parallel fashion to help
the body deal with the cancer?
                                                   S.J.: Have you ever done any fasting?
T.C.C.: Yeah. It sounds sort of a reasonable
approach and maybe some research can be            T.C.C.: Yeah I have. I think you probably
done to test to see if in fact that way would      know I isolated that compound that later
work. But the idea is that you give the drug,      became known as dioxin. And I had some
this very cytotoxic drug, you give the drug        serious problems with that years later.
and let it do its job, do what it can do, then
right away come right behind it with the
kind of diet that gets rid of all the excess and   S.J.: Yourself?
hope you are accomplishing something. But

T.C.C.: Yeah I‟m one of the discoverers of        when I gradually improved my diet,
that.                                             coincidentally I think.

S.J.: I mean you’ve had problems with it          S.J.: Coincidentally?
                                                  T.C.C.: I was improving my diet during the
T.C.C.: Yeah I did. When I was isolating it       „80s let‟s say.
at MIT, I ended up with polyps in my sinuses
that had to be burned out and had bleeding
migraines, and then subsequent to that—I          S.J.: Or causatively? Your diet helped clear
didn‟t have a name for that compound at the       up the problem.
time, I published my work, it was a couple
years later when they discovered dioxin.          T.C.C.: The diet was helping to clear up the
                                                  problem, I‟m convinced but not entirely, at
                                                  least clearing up the problems with this
S.J.: Because of your work in the lab with        chloracne, these lesions and so forth. So
dioxin you got dosed very, very heavily.          they eventually went away but then after
                                                  they went away I could still feel this kind of
T.C.C.: Very heavy doses.                         tingling sensation in my face that kind of
                                                  lingered from time to time. And eventually in
                                                  the early 90s, just about the time the China
S.J.: Here we’re talking about a substance        Project information was being released, all
that the body doesn’t know how to handle.         of that crept into my neck and started
                                                  affecting the muscles in my neck and my
T.C.C.: Exactly. And so I ended up after that     speech and my eating. I had a very hard
experience, there was one other guy working       time to speak then I had a lot of pain I had
on it at the time, FDA in Washington and he       to hold my mouth, couldn‟t eat very well.
died. He had filed a complaint with the           Went to some doctors, went to the best I
labor department that he thought he was           could find—Cornell Med School, Columbia
being poisoned, and he wasn‟t being               Presbyterian, Sloane Memorial, all of the
appropriately protected, but he died before       best. They gave me the worst prognosis, they
action was taken. But in any case, I got          said I probably would not be speaking in
heavily dosed, I ended up with some               another year, they showed me how to use a
problems, that later evolved into some            pen knife to stick in my trachea so I
conditions with my face and my sinuses            wouldn‟t choke to death, all these kinds of
called chloracne. And that subsequently then      things.
was shown in fact dioxin causes, that is one             So I then had a chance to speak about
of the thing that people get working with this    the China Project to a convention in New
stuff. And I had a pretty serious case of that.   York City, I told them I couldn‟t do it. So
That went on for 8 or 10 years, I tried to        they said „well, what‟s wrong with you?‟
deal with it. Finally it gradually went away,     And I told this guy who had been from
                                                  Cornell, I told him I got a really serious
problem, I can‟t really talk. He said „Well,           So now coming back to your
why don‟t you come down here. There are a        question what would I do? I think fasting
lot of people in this audience, it‟s the         when you allow the body to go to rest and let
National Hygiene Society, lot of                 nature take its course.
chiropractors and naturopaths and some
MDs. They had more understanding of your
condition‟. I thought, well what the hell I      Tape 3 (Interview 2a)
can‟t lose. So I went down and struggled
through it, and they got together 10 of them
and sent me off to this fasting place in         S.J.: If all one’s siblings have gotten breast
California at their expense, it was very kind.   cancer for example, does that mean it’s in
They sent me there and meanwhile I had           the genes and one should play it safe by
tested myself for dioxin and I still had very    getting mastectomies as a preventative
high levels in my body, 25 years after I had     measure?
been away from it. So I did the fasting thing
in the hope that my body would get rid of it.    T.C.C.: Well, all the diseases as you know,
But when I went there I was very skeptical,      Sylvester, really begin with genes of one
but came to learn some things that I will        kind or another not just one gene usually but
never forget. I learned that water-only          a cluster of genes. So all of the normal and
fasting is a remarkable medical procedure        abnormal biological processes begin with
that is simply not understood by 99% of          genes and so breast cancer too has a genetic
doctors, I think.                                basis just like all the others. And there are a
                                                 certain small percentage of breast cancers
                                                 that are pretty strongly influenced by genes,
S.J.: Seems like people who want to try          namely genes called BRCA1 and BRCA2.
fasting need to do it with the supervision of    And those two genes they have what we refer
a health professional and not just at home       to as pretty strong penetrates, that is their
on their own.                                    influence is pretty strong and they can raise
                                                 the risk for this small group of women to
T.C.C.: Precisely.                               fairly high levels and can end up causing
                                                 breast cancer or at least being associated
                                                 with breast cancer. But that is about 5% or
S.J.: There are a lot of ways to trip up with    so of women who have that problem with
it, including loss of electrolytes.              those genes. And so we see a higher risk for
                                                 breast cancer among those women, of
T.C.C.: Absolutely. You are absolutely right.    course, but the interesting thing about this is
And now this clinic has done about 5,000         that diet, namely the diet we‟re talking
patients this way. And I saw things like         about, a plant-based diet, low fat, is
uterine fibromas shrink and all kinds of         obviously associated with lower risk of
conditions resolve themselves, hypertension      breast cancer. And we know a lot about how
almost uniformly reverse itself, and when        it works and it similarly works, as far as I
people get that behind them then they go on      can see in the literature, even for that small
to a plant-based diet.                           group of women who in fact are at high risk
because of those genes. So I sort of look at     genes, if we did things right, are involved
the genetic equation in a way in which, since    in nothing. It almost sounds like a paradox
all disease begin with genes, that is the        but it just shows in fact you know how
starting point essentially, corrupted genes      strong this nutritional effect is.
let‟s say, or genes that people were born                I am thinking of genes incidentally,
with. Since everything starts at that point,     too, that get corrupted during our lives that
that is not enough to conclude that therefore    then can lead to serious diseases, like the
they‟re going to get the disease, because diet   liver cancer case—that we worked on in our
and nutritional patterns that we‟re talking      laboratory fairly intensively for many
about can actually repress and actually          years—that cancer starts when a chemical
completely bar the expression of those genes     carcinogen comes in, in this case it was
that ultimately lead to disease, and that even   aflatoxin. When it comes in it gets
includes the people that have something like     metabolized to produce a metabolite that is
BRCA1 and BRCA2 which I call                     very reactive and it binds to the DNA and it
mischievous genes. We all have some genes        corrupts, therefore, a gene and we know
I think that raise our risk for one thing or     pretty much which gene it is. In one sense
another, but we don‟t really know what           we can say that is a chemical carcinogen
those genes are for the most part.               disease but really in reality that carcinogen,
                                                 like most carcinogens, are interacting with
                                                 genes so it‟s really a genetic beginning.
S.J.: So genes function only by being
activated or expressed and nutrition plays a
critical role in determining which genes         S.J.: The body has an amazing and very
good or bad get expressed.                       well researched and proven, as far as you
                                                 can prove in biological terms, set of
T.C.C.: Absolutely. Absolutely, it‟s not the     strategies to repair genes.
presence or absence of the genes that make
the difference it really is the expression of    T.C.C.: Yes, true, absolutely, and in fact we
these genes. And another way to look at this,    have genetic corruption or attack going on
that I have been thinking about that no one      all the time during our lifetime from various
ever really does I think, and that is if you     and sundry things and so genes are being
look at the relationship between dietary fat     damaged, if you will, but there are some
and breast cancer or animal foods and            estimates that somewhere in the
breast cancer or animal foods and colon          neighborhood of 99 to 99.9% of all those
cancer, or whatever, we know that the            genes are repaired. We have repair
dietary effect is strong, from various points    mechanisms in our cells that actually repair
of view. Now it turns out that all those         them, so fortunately almost all that stuff gets
diseases are starting with genes and that is a   repaired, but that tiny, tiny little bit, it only
demonstration right there that nutrition and     takes just one slipping through the cracks
diet are prominently operating; every            from time to time, when the gene is sitting
disease begins with genes so we can say          there and doesn‟t get repaired at the time
everything is genetic. Genes are involved        the cell divides, now that gene gets
with everything, yet we can also say that        incorporated into the daughter cells. So
now suddenly, in an extreme case, we have         S.J.: How about a different class of
one cell that has a corrupted DNA structure,      disease such as Parkinson’s, if both my
and that one cell can divide into two and so      parents got it’s my fate sealed?
forth and so on and eventually just grow out
to form what we call a clone of the mother        T.C.C.: No, I am saying that a little bit
cell. And eventually it can be the wrong kind     obviously without enough knowledge to
of clone andt can go towards cancer.              know the whole story on that one for sure,
                                                  but there is some evidence already that diet
                                                  can play a role in preventing Parkinson‟s
S.J.: So if repair mechanisms and immune          disease, and it‟s the same kind of diet again.
system have been made less robust by the          And I find this not surprising that that might
effects of animal based foods, then the           be true, because this diet has such a broad
cancers can begin to get a foothold.              effect. What troubles me about something
                                                  like Parkinson‟s especially, but also some
T.C.C.: Yeah. There are other ways too            others is the fact that we don‟t have an
incidentally; we just talked about the cell       interest in medical research to really go in
having the ability to repair itself, to repair    and look at a question like that. It would
this kind of damage. At the same time, the        seem to me if we had some evidence even
body has a mechanism, routine kind of             though it‟s not conclusive, that‟s exactly the
mechanism that tends to kill bad cells even       kind of question that we should be studying.
after they‟re formed, and are there, and          People should be putting money into „let‟s
start to grow. All of our tissues have the        have a closer look at this dietary effect‟, to
ability to wipeout and discard mischievous        see how, in fact Parkinson‟s disease doesn‟t
cells, and that‟s a phenomenon called             have to happen. And from what I can see—
apoptosis in the case of cancer. So it‟s a        obviously, I am an enthusiast for diet, but
good thing we have this apoptotic                 the fact that it has such a wide array of
mechanism that works and incidentally,            effects that—we‟ll discover someday that
nutrition again plays a role in affecting         Parkinson‟s can be largely prevented, by
apoptosis and it‟s the same kind of diet in       dietary means.
effect. And the evidence we have so far is
that this kind of diet, it does so many things,
it stops the metabolism of the carcinogen to      S.J.: So improving diet might well help
give the metabolite to bind to the DNA, it        even if a disease runs in the family, in the
affects DNA repair in the same sort of            genes, for a whole variety of diseases?
direction it also affects apoptosis. The
wrong kind of diet does everything in the         T.C.C.: Absolutely. This whole ‗running in
wrong way, that is what I find so fascinating     the family‘ is an interesting expression, as
about biology in this case, that when we‟re       you know. That tends to mean to most
doing the wrong thing everything goes             people that it‘s a genetic disorder and that
wrong, not everything, but there are a whole      kind of philosophy, that kind of assumption,
lot of things going wrong at the same time.       is really quite a fatalistic assumption.
                                                  Because if we sort of preclude that ‗oh it‘s

in my family‘, or ‗I know, it‘s a genetic         have seen, or the increase in acid. In terms
disease‘, ‗it‘s going to happen anyhow‘, then     of numbers it doesn‘t look like much, but
people are really disinclined to do the right     that change really quite major in terms of its
thing. They know it‘s going to come and           effect on various enzyme systems.
that is the way it‘s and I just cannot
subscribe to that kind of fatalism. It‘s just
not appropriate, and when you study it a          S.J.: How well do the people who consume
little more closely, of course, we find out       the most milk products do with
that nutrition has such a strong effect, that‘s   osteoporosis?
to me a great ray of hope. And in science
and in the funding of research, that I have       T.C.C.: You mean why do people consuming
been so involved in myself on both sides of       the most dairy products have more
the table, I am really troubled by the fact       osteoporosis?
that in our national health budget, health
research budget, we don‘t devote money to
try and understand the nutritional connection     S.J.: Yes.
well enough so we can really tell the public,
‗here‘s how it all works‘ kind of bit. They       T.C.C.: For one thing the dairy food, of
always look for the drug.                         course, is a good source of protein and in
                                                  many cases it can comprise a fairly large
                                                  fraction of the protein that a person is
S.J.: What is meant by the term acidosis          consuming, especially in dairy producing
and how can animal products increase the          countries. And that protein, animal protein,
possibility of experiencing it?                   like we just said, can lead to an acidic-like
                                                  condition. And also that same protein can
T.C.C.: Well, with acidosis usually, the          make some other biochemical changes too,
lower the pH the greater the acidity or           any one of which lead to the need by the
greater the concentration of acid. Acidosis,      body for reducing the amount of acid being
often times also called metabolic acidosis,       produced. And it does that most effectively
reflects acid being produced in excess            by drawing on the best buffer that‟s around
because of metabolism of one sort or              which happens to be the calcium in the
another. And it turns out that animal based       bones. And so consuming dairy creates a
proteins, when they‘re metabolized, first         little excess acid, that has to be neutralized
digested to their amino acids and then amino      and that neutralization is coming about
acids are further metabolized, have a little      because of the drawing of the calcium from
higher concentration of so-called sulfur          the bones—that is one mechanism by which
amino acids, which when metabolized can           that occurs.
produce the sulfate ion, it‘s an acidic ion,              There is another one not terribly well
and that‘s just one mechanism, there are          talked about, a couple of others actually, it
some other ways. It turns out that animal         has to do with the fact that the dairy
based proteins have been shown to actually        contains a lot of calcium, and so for a lot of
increase acid a bit and decrease, therefore       societies who are consuming lots of dairy,
the pH and the amount of pH decrease that I       they‟re getting a very high fraction of the
calcium from dairy. And when people              phenomena. Obviously, in our stomach,
become accustomed to a high calcium diet         the stomach contents are highly acidic, very
then the immediate cascade after they go off     acidic. If we were to take the gastric juice of
that, let‟s say, or they come to some other      the stomach and put it on paper it could burn
event in their life such as menopause—when       through the paper in fact, it‘s that strong.
estrogen is decreased—at the point they‟re       And so that‘s nature‘s way at having a first
accustomed to this very high calcium intake,     look at the food that is being consumed, well
suddenly the calcium intake might drop or        it‘s the second look in a sense salvia is the
certainly the estrogen will drop, that in turn   first look. But in any case, the food gets to
portages most of the calcium, at that            the stomach, the acid is there and begins to
particular point in time the body is not as      hydrolyze many of the constituents and in a
well adapted to a lower calcium intake and       sense prepares the food for further digestion;
therefore is at greater risk to osteoporosis     when it gets beyond the stomach into the
for various kinds of mechanisms.                 lower intestine and that is when the enzymes
        The dairy industry has argued and        can come into play. That acid is strong, and
lots of nutritionists have agreed that we        there are certain conditions—and
should be consuming these high levels of         incidentally given the fact that it‘s so strong
calcium for much of the earlier part of our      it also means that the stomach lining, the
life, especially women, as if that is a good     cells lining the stomach, the mucosa as we
thing. I disagree; I think we set ourselves up   call it, mucosa cells, they‘re of a special
by doing that. We set ourselves up for the       nature to protect the tissue from that acid.
body adapting to these very high levels of       It‘s fascinating: the biology! Sometimes
calcium that is going to then make us            though, that lining can be disrupted and
vulnerable to the effects of menopause and       destroyed and the acid can begin to eat into
its subsequent effects on osteoporosis. I        the underlying tissue in which case we can
could go on and on about this. There are         start getting ulcers and various kinds of
some other sorts of mechanisms too. We           conditions which create that too. But that is
gathered a lot of evidence now to show how       one pool of acid that should not be confused
dairy and fat, rather conclusively can show      with the kind of metabolic acidosis that I am
how dairy really causes osteoporosis it does     talking about, nor should it be confused with
not prevent osteoporosis. There is no            the kind of acid that we might see in certain
evidence that dairy prevents osteoporosis        foods, such as citrus fruits. And we have
and makes stronger bones as they have said       alkaline foods we have acid like foods. The
for so many years; it just doesn‟t work.         extra acid maybe in citrus fruits and some
                                                 other foods and that shouldn‘t be confused
                                                 with the acid in the stomach and it should
S.J.: Sometimes a point of confusion             not be confused with the metabolic acidosis
arises because the gastric fluids in the         in the stomach, acid is not the same for these
stomach are already highly acidic so             different pools, altogether different
people wonder why acid is a problem.             phenomenon.

T.C.C.: Well, of course, there are different
kinds of acid conditions these are separate
S.J.: And really other than in the stomach         S.J.: Speaking of concrete, that is a good
the body wants to keep itself pretty alkaline.     analogy because without reinforcing rods,
                                                   that mesh of steel that is wired in first
T.C.C.: Yes. Absolutely, and our tissues           before the concrete is poured, the concrete
beyond the stomach inside of the cells, it         would be very brittle and not robust at all to
tends to exist on the more alkaline side of        impacts and severe stresses, but with the
the acid base balance.                             reinforcing rods it has got that kind of
                                                   strength that will allow it to be robust to all
                                                   kinds of impacts. So bones when they have
S.J.: Some pharmaceuticals have the                got high mineral density but no reinforcing
result in bones of increasing the mineral          fine mesh then they’re like brittle chalk.
density but that doesn‟t necessarily mean
stronger bones more robust bones to                T.C.C.: Absolutely. It‘s an excellent
impulses and impacts.                              example. You put your finger right on it. I
                                                   couldn‘t have said it as well as that, that‘s
T.C.C.: Yes, bone density has often been           perfect.
equated with stronger bones, at least that is
the general assumption that has been used
for many, many years. There are some               S.J.: What’s meant by negative calcium
exceptions to that, exceptions in a sense that     balance and how do animal products cause
you don‘t need to consume a lot of calcium         it?
and therefore a lot of minerals to get
stronger bones, that sort of makes some            T.C.C.: Well, before we talk about negative
simplistic sense but that‘s not really             calcium balance, calcium balance in the old
necessarily true. Bone strength is related not     literature and still to some extent in the
only to the minerals present, the calcium, the     minds of some people today, is nothing more
magnesium, and some other minerals, it‘s           than a relationship between the total
not really related to the amount of                calcium being consumed compared to the
mineralization in the bones. It‘s also             calcium being excreted in the urine and the
strongly related to the structure of the bone      feces. Positive calcium balance means that
itself, the interstitial kinds of things made up   we‟re consuming more than we‟re excreting,
of protein, and collagen, and things like this,    perfect balance it‟s equal, negative calcium
it kind of holds things in order. I don‘t think    balance more is being excreted than being
we have paid enough attention to totality of       consumed. And the loss of calcium, as we
the bone structure. There is some evidence, I      just talked about before, is arising in large
shouldn‘t quite say that so glibly because         measure because when animal foods are
there are obviously some good researchers          being consumed creating a metabolic
who are in fact beginning to point this out—       acidosis, drawing calcium from the bone to
bones are more than a concrete slab that we        neutralize all of this, it eventually ends up
have dumped a bunch of minerals in and             out in the urine for the most part, we loose
watched them calcify.                              calcium from the body by that measure.
                                                   Incidentally there is another interesting

point about calcium balance studies, in the      research. It was done in Sweden by a guy
older days in fact when I was a young            studying for his Ph.D. over a period of about
graduate student, calcium balance studies        10 years, he did large numbers of human
were often considered to be the key              trials and Mark Hegsted of Harvard
measurement, the principle measurement of        University expanded on that and showed the
calcium health, you just determine how           same thing. So balance studies are kind of
much is going in, how much is going out and      silly, they have actually been abandoned to
always try to err on the side of more going      some extent by the more serious researchers
in than going out, that was very simplistic.     but still unfortunately to some extent people
In fact the first job that I had as a masters    still talk about them.
student at Cornell University was washing
the glassware of this researcher who was
simply doing nothing more than calcium           S.J.: Can milk products cause negative
balance studies, how much going in, how          calcium balance?
much going out. And we now know shortly
after that time in fact a very well known        T.C.C.: I would say yes, but actually I don‘t
professor at Harvard, I‟m a great admirer of     know.
his work, by the name of Mark Hegsted. He
did some really brilliant studies along with
some people in Sweden, showing that if we        S.J.: Even though they‟re loaded with
determine how much calcium we need               calcium?
according to balance studies, to keep things
balanced, if we do it that way we will find as   T.C.C.: That‘s right. I know there has been
was shown in these famous Swedish studies,       some dispute, argument about that, you
we will find that the amount of calcium that     know some will argue that milk because of
we need at some point in time is pretty much     all the extra calcium can overcome
a reflection of what we have become              essentially, they will argue this that the extra
accustomed to in the recent past. If we have     calcium in milk will overcome the negative
been accustomed to a fairly high calcium         effects of the extra protein. But I don‘t
diet, we do a balance study, we need pretty      believe that in a larger context, even though
high calcium intake; that is the way the body    in a short term experiment one might show
has adjusted to this condition. In contrast,     that from time to time and might be a well
you are taking people on a high calcium diet     done experiment, the problem is that people
and switch them to a low calcium diet for a      routinely consuming more dairy have more
while, in the neighborhood of two, three,        fractures, it doesn‘t make sense, it doesn‘t
four months according to what the data           compute. So even though there is a bit of
showed, if they come to a low calcium diet       confusion and controversy in the field
and you go back and do these calcium             involving whether dairy doesn‘t, at least
balance studies again, same people, you find     from my limited knowledge, I need to go
out that they need less calcium. So the body     back and actually look at that more
is always adjusting, always adjusting, that      carefully.
phenomena is exciting and it was really
clearly demonstrated in some famous
S.J.: Dispute regarding the calcium              S.J.: Some might say that getting
balance aspect but not dispute regarding         exercise puts stress on bones, so you should
the increase in hip fractures for example        get as little as possible.
with respect to increasing milk
consumption, or cheese, or whatever              T.C.C.: No, exercise has positive effects
product of milk.                                 across the board.

T.C.C.: Right.
                                                 S.J.: It sends an electrical stimulus along
                                                 the bone and that challenges the bone to
S.J.: How can people get their calcium if        grow cells instead of depleting them.
not from dairy?
T.C.C.: Well from a couple of sources of         T.C.C.: Perhaps. Exercise is a good thing
course I mean natural sources, leafy             and as far as bone strength is concerned
vegetables certainly have a good share of        weight bearing exercise is good, incidentally
calcium in them, and whole grains, all           that idea of weight bearing exercise making
whole grains are a good source because           stronger bones has been used in a rather
when we‟re consuming the whole grains the        strange way a couple times recently arguing
outer bran layer obviously has calcium and       that people who are overweight, it‟s one of
some other minerals too as well as the B         the advantages of being overweight, because
vitamins. It raises another interesting point,   when they walk around they‟re getting
we tend to take these grains and separate        weight bearing exercise and therefore
out the good from the bad and we give the        should have stronger bones, that is kind of a
good stuff to the animals and we keep the        silly argument.
bad stuff for ourselves.                                But exercise, coming back to your
                                                 original question, exercise is obviously
                                                 important, sunshine is also important
S.J.: So what is the key to bone health?         because we have got to maintain a good
                                                 source of vitamin D, and obviously eat the
T.C.C.: Well one of the important things to      right food—the combination of exercise,
good health is exercise, weight bearing          getting outdoors with adequate amount of
exercise.                                        sunshine and eating the right foods and also
                                                 a couple of other things by the way, salt.
                                                 Excessive salt intake has a negative effect on
S.J.: For bones.                                 bone health for some people, so not
                                                 overusing salt, consuming the right food,
T.C.C.: For bone yeah, staying active and of     getting some exercise, keeping the body
course weight bearing exercise…                  hydrated making sure there is enough
                                                 water—these are all factors that can give
                                                 good bone health.

S.J.: How much salt should a person              and then we‟re put on a taste panel and
consume?                                         given a choice of foods containing various
                                                 amounts of salt, we will choose the foods
T.C.C.: Oh I should know this number, I          that are most nearly like the foods that we
have forgotten.                                  have just been consuming in terms of salt
                                                 content. And so for a high salt diet, we
                                                 prefer high salt diets, very simply. In
S.J.: Isn‟t the allowance something like         contrast, let‟s say we‟re accustomed to a
2400mg of sodium?                                high salt diet and now for some reason
                                                 we‟re made to consume a low salt diet for
T.C.C.: Yeah 2400mg sounds right.                some period of time. It turns out that about 3
                                                 or 4 months maybe less, maybe more is
                                                 required and then we go back on this taste
S.J.: About a teaspoon of salt, but that         panel and now we‟re going to choose the
seems like a lot of salt to me, maybe I          low salt diet so our preference for salt is
don‟t use much salt, that‟s the reason my        very much influenced by what we have been
taste buds just aren‟t in need of it as          consuming in the recent past. And if
much since I don‟t use so much.                  preference for salt is mistakenly used as an
                                                 indicator of how much salt we need then that
T.C.C.: I should know these numbers, and         is a big error, that‟s wrong. The amount of
once knew them and have forgotten, but we        salt that we need is really as you indicated
on average consume really excess amounts         before, fairly low and it‟s much lower than
of salt. And something like if it‟s still true   what we actually are consuming.
today what I knew from some ten, fifteen
years ago data, we‟re consuming in the
neighborhood of 5 to 10 times as much salt       S.J.: Besides problems for bones what
or more than we actually need. And it‟s          other damage can a high salt diet do?
something like 80-85% of that salt is coming
from processed foods rather than the kind of     T.C.C.: Hypertension, blood pressure is the
salt that we add at the table. And so it‟s one   big thing. Blood pressure and all the
of the big arguments against processed           sequelae that arise from hypertension,
foods. So we‟re really over consuming salt       obviously hypertension is going to lead to
and for about 20% of the population who          increased risk for stroke and cardiovascular
are particularly vulnerable to high salt         diseases and things like that. Hypertension
intake in terms of high blood pressure,          is not a good thing and by consuming all
they‟re going to see high blood pressure         that excess salt and keeping these high
from all that excess salt too as well.           blood pressures is just a bad thing, it‟s not
        We‟re way over consuming salt. Salt      good.
is, interestingly, I don‟t know if you want to
go into this or not, but our taste for salt is
influenced by our recent past. If we‟re          S.J.: What about the chloride ions that get
accustomed to consuming a high salt diet         eaten in salt?

T.C.C.: I don‟t know about the chloride           involved in these panel discussions, so
ions, I just don‟t know that well enough. I       with that advisory, it‟s my understanding
know that the cation sodium actually              that the reason that the American Pediatric
compared to potassium, another monovalent         Association for example and other
cation, if you compare sodium and                 organizations like it made a decision to
potassium salts the potassium salt is better      recommend not consuming dairy food, cow‟s
and it appears that we clearly need in our        milk, and that was generally for two years
diet a certain ratio of sodium to potassium       rather than one year, babies should stay
ion intake. By consuming a plant based diet,      away from it for two years. That came about
it tends to put us in the right direction. And    not coincidentally just after some pretty
we know also that there is a balance              convincing data was coming forth that cow‟s
between sodium and potassium activities           milk consumed too early in a baby‟s life
throughout our bodies. In reference to what       could give rise for some individuals to the
is on the inside of the cell and what is on the   onset of type I diabetes. And that research
outside of the cell. So the shifting of those     had been done by some excellent research
two ions in particular does play an               groups mostly in Finland and to some extent
important role in maintaining so-called           in Canada. And it really created quit a howl
osmotic activity inside and outside the cells.    the thought that cow‟s milk might be related
                                                  to type I diabetes. The whole story really
                                                  started in the beginning from the
S.J.: Just as an example of how sensitive         observation that when babies are cut short
the body is to these salts even potassium in      on their weaning for example, those babies
excess can cause some misfiring of nerves         that were weaned early had a higher risk of
and when that comes to heart problems             type I diabetes of course being the really
that could prove critical.                        serious kind where they end up not being
                                                  able to produce insulin. And so that was the
T.C.C.: That is a good point, yeah that is an     original observation, just cutting short
excellent point, just because potassium is a      weaning. But then it was observed that when
little better than sodium obviously doesn‟t       the weaning period was decreased in
mean we should go out and consume a               contrast they were also going onto cow‟s
whole lot of potassium to solve our               milk earlier, and so then it became more a
problems, it just doesn‟t work that way.          function of the real relationship that was of
                                                  interest was the fact that the cow‟s milk
                                                  consumed early could give rise to this
S.J.: As you have said mother’s milk is the       autoimmune disease called type I diabetes.
healthiest food possible for babies to grow       It think that the pediatric associations were
and prosper. Why has the American                 obviously being really cautious in this case
Academy of Pediatrics recommended that            and passing out the word “don‟t feed cow‟s
infants under a year old not receive any          milk” for at least a couple years.
milk other than human?                                   But we also know from some of the
                                                  literature too that type I diabetes can be
T.C.C.: Well as far as I am aware and this is     initiated in a similar fashion beyond two
just from the literature and not having been
years, on up to 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 maybe even          acid peptide and it was specific for that
later.                                            peptide—and all those amino acids in that
                                                  peptide were in a very specific sequence—it
                                                  just so happens that a similar 17 amino acid
S.J.: What mechanism, how does the                fragment was found in the surface of the
peptide get into the blood stream?                pancreas cells that produce insulin, the
                                                  pancreatic islet cells. And so the antibody
T.C.C.: The peptide you are referring to is       now being produced to kick out the foreign
the incompletely digested cow‟s milk              cow‟s milk protein, or peptide in this case,
protein. All proteins in theory are digested      that antibody then essentially could also be
down into their individual amino acids but        used to attack the pancreatic islet cells that
that process is somewhat incomplete as we         produce the insulin and that was „Katy bar
know in many cases. And so rather than            the door‟, because when the antibodies start
getting complete digestion to the individual      attacking these infant pancreatic cells and
amino acids we can end up with a few amino        destroying their capability to produce
acids not completely separated one from           insulin, that was a very bad deal, because
another in which case then we get a little        then that meant that infant no longer could
chain of them, called peptides. If those          produce insulin, for the rest of it‟s life and
peptides are absorbed into the blood and          so obviously very, very serious.
they can be, especially in infants whose                 There has been a lot of discussion on
absorptive process in the intestines is not yet   that questioning the literature in the last 15
complete not yet mature, the body sees those      years, since that was first discovered, or so.
proteins as foreign, foreign proteins and         Some very extensive and in depth research
treats them as such. And anytime the body         has been done on the question. It turns out
sees a foreign protein, and those foreign         that whole process is more complex than
proteins are called antigens, at that point       what I have just described, so it involves
the body wants to get rid of them and it gets     some other components of the immune
rid of them by making antibodies or using         system as well, but what is shown and what
other components of the immune system to          one can conclude at this point is that cow‟s
deal with that. And so it makes antibodies to     milk protein given early can in fact initiate
the antigen and that is a very interesting        an antibody kind of response, however
reaction because the antibody itself being a      complex it may be, that then can in turn
protein creates it in such a way that it makes    affect these very important cells such as the
a prefect match to look at that specific          pancreatic islet cells and destroy their
protein that is coming in, so antibody            capability, it can have life-threatening, life-
antigen interaction is very, very, very           long certainly, consequences. And
specific. Antibodies are specific for specific    unfortunately in my view at least the
proteins. And in the case of type I diabetes,     pediatric associations and other health
it was discovered that there was a certain        research people, the medical community,
peptide of some 17 amino acids all hooked         haven‟t emphasized this enough. Sure they
together that kind of slipped into the            say „don‟t drink milk‟ but they don‟t go out
bloodstream. The evidence showed that an          and tell women, they don‟t speak this very
antibody was made against that 17 amino           loudly. In fact, when this first came out, one
of the major reports that came out in the       feed an infant something that can cause
beginning was in 1992 and an organization       a problem, such as really any kind of milk
in Washington was interesting in publicizing    other than human, then indeed the
this for the public and invited me and the      problem arises more readily with infants,
late Dr. Spock and another very famous          but at any age a person can develop leaky
pediatrician to come to New York to have a      gut syndrome due to some kind of an
news conference to publicize this fact. I       infection, as you mentioned, or perhaps
didn‟t agree to do it at the time because I     due to gastroenteritis of some kind and all
thought I had enough trouble before I saw       of a sudden be challenged with even adult
more information on the question, but it was    onset type I diabetes.
also very clear from that experience and
subsequent experience that everything has       T.C.C.: You‘re right.
been done to keep the public from knowing
this information. Only modest attempts have
been made to let the public know and I think    S.J.: In other words, death of the Islets of
the mere fact that it exists that cow‟s milk    Langerhorn and hello needles, hello
can have this kind of damaging effect early     insulin.
in life, for certain individuals—and
incidentally those certain individuals that I   T.C.C.: You are absolutely right, that is one
am speaking of are those who may have a         of the things that I said before that it‟s too
genetic predisposition for it, that is one      bad that they sort of narrowed this concern
thing that has been demonstrated and that       down to the first year or two of life, because
genetic predisposition might in turn might      in reality we know that this kind of
be related to some viral interaction such       phenomena can arise in later years. We
that they end up with a so-called leaky gut,    know for example that type I diabetes as you
the gut doesn‟t mature quickly enough and       just said, can arise in some people on into
so it slips in there.                           their teen years and even older maybe,
                                                they‟d loose their capacity to produce
                                                insulin altogether and it needs to be
S.J.: Well, leaky gut can develop for many      assumed that more or less the same thing is
reasons and at any age.                         going on, that has already been
                                                demonstrated in infants.
T.C.C.: Right, it can.

                                                S.J.: What can a baby be fed if the
S.J.: So with infants, researchers first        mother can‟t lactate enough?
became aware of the problem with infants
and pointed the finger at the problem           T.C.C.: Gosh, I‘m not a pediatrician, so I am
particularly in infants because their           not sure I can answer that question well
digestive tracts are trusting that they‟re      enough, but obviously good water is always
only going to be fed foods that are             important.
completely compatible with robust health,
for instance mother‟s milk. But when you
S.J.: I mean for nutrition.                      tilted back to drink and that provides a
                                                 perfect ambient for bacteria and other
T.C.C.: For nutrition, I going to beg off that   pathogens to grow.
one because I don‘t know enough about it,
you can start them in on purees of vegetable     T.C.C.: Oh really, that I didn‘t know,
matter. My wife and I had five children and      interesting. Do you know of some evidence
she used baby food like that, that was for the   that that has been demonstrated?
most part vegetable. Our grandchildren have
been fed that entirely as we have sort of
really gotten into this. I don‘t know, just      S.J.: That I can’t cite; it just seems very
regular food that we would otherwise be          plausible to me.
consuming, put in a physical form that they
can actually consume is about what the size      T.C.C.: Yeah. But it‟s clear, I think we
of it is. As far as liquid is concerned they     agree, that dairy, drinking cow‟s milk, is
can drink fruit juices too, my wife did that     certainly a major factor in causing ear
quite a bit.                                     problems for young children. One of our
                                                 grandsons had exactly that. The two
                                                 youngest they have been pure vegans from
S.J.: So many young children suffer from         the beginning, no milk at all, but in one case
severe earaches, do milk products have           our grandson‟s mother wanted to let him
anything to do with that?                        have some milk from time to time, or maybe
T.C.C.: Yes, they do. It‟s now acknowledged      some ice cream to join his kids, but every
even by the defenders of the dairy industry—     time that that was done he got ear problems,
I just happened to have seen this                and suddenly they just realized “no way”
information recently—it‟s being                  even the slightest bit of dairy could cause
acknowledged that cow‟s milk is the number       problems, it was just back and forth, back
one food allergen that we consume. It‟s also     and forth demonstrated so many times.
being acknowledged, even in the
conservative literature, that the effect of
cow‟s milk on creating allergies it can take     S.J.: What about acne?
many different forms, ranging all the way
from behavioral patterns, to skin eruptions,     T.C.C.: Acne was recently demonstrated in
to other kinds of issues and ear aches, the      some fairly good research, a good report out
excessive fluid accumulation and other kinds     of Harvard, showing that there is a strong
of responses like that is just one of those      link between teenage acne, usually
kinds of allergies. And we know that dairy is    occurring between the years of about 14 and
a strong effecter of these ear aches that are    18 I think, there is a strong link between
occurring in very young children.                teenage acne and dairy consumption. And
                                                 again it‟s another kind of allergic response.
                                                 And acne although it‟s not life threatening,
S.J.: Also just as a film forms at the back      it certainly is a difficult problem for a lot of
of the glass as it gets emptied, milk can        teenagers. And I just wish that they knew
enter the inner ear canal as the head is
because they certainly don‟t want to have       T.C.C.: Of course, I mean just cow‘s milk
that problem and they usually go to their       products: ice cream, cheese
dermatologist and try to get some creams
and this and that and everything else, when
in fact all they need to do is quit consuming   S.J.: Goat milk products, do you think?
dairy. That is not going to clear up all the
acne problems, but it‟s certainly going to      T.C.C.: I don‘t know about goat milk, there
according to the recent evidence address a      are people that say that goat milk is different
lot of the acne problems.                       and it doesn‘t create the same response and
                                                so forth.

S.J.: Because teenagers have burgeoning
hormones that cause a secretion of oils in      S.J.: Not as much lactose.
the pores and sometimes dry skin blocks
the oils and that causes an eruption. And if    T.C.C.: Perhaps, I just don‘t know enough,
you add more hormones that are naturally        again it‘s a question of I wish we could do
occurring in milk products then that just       the kind of research of comparing goat‘s
adds to the problem, does that make any         milk with cow‘s milk a one on one kind of
sense?                                          comparison with respect to these kind of
                                                responses. But I haven‘t seen that kind of
T.C.C.: That could be, sure it could be. Also   information, maybe it‘s been done, but I do
the issue of consuming all that milk and        hear from time to time that goat‘s milk is not
getting extra protein, actually will tend to    as problematic as cow‘s milk. But I might be
turn on the synthesis of our own hormones,      just be reflecting an impression rather than
so our so-called endogenous hormones, the       pertinent data.
ones that are produced in our bodies, can be
increased in their production, just simply
from consuming a dairy based diet.              S.J.: So far as other aspects, such as
                                                protein content and perhaps hormone
                                                content that would occur naturally goat’s
S.J.: What foods can cause headaches?           milk would cause problems?

T.C.C.: Dairy again is a big one, migraine      T.C.C.: Yeah it should. There should be
headaches are classic symptoms, and I have      some problems with goat‟s milk but you
heard it said by a number of people that        know the difference between goat‟s milk and
dairy is the principle cause of migraine        cow‟s milk these days in the modern sense is
headaches.                                      pretty significant because cow‟s milk is
                                                pretty loaded up with exposures at least to
                                                all kids of other agents, that goat‟s milk
S.J.: By dairy you don‟t mean eggs,             tends not to be exposed to—hormones, and
rather milk products.                           pesticides, and antibodies and so forth.

S.J.: What about animal products could             may very well be the cause of sperm count
contribute to impotence, including both            going down. I haven‟t heard the questions
erectile function and sperm count and              concerning dairy though on sperm count.
motility, the ability to have children?

T.C.C.: Well, one thing is that erectile           S.J.: How old do men have to be to
function is in fact an expression of vascular      experience problems with erectile function,
health and vessels throughout the body,            due to dietary effects?
obviously, are subject to atherosclerosis,
occlusion. And when one is consuming a             T.C.C.: How old do they have to be? Well,
high fat animal based diet this kind of            I‟m told it starts in late 40s early 50s, just
phenomena doesn‟t occur just in the heart, it      like atherosclerosis symptoms begin too.
obviously also occurs in the brain in which
case if it breaks it creates a stroke. With
                                                   S.J.: The symptoms, however, the reality of
erectile function, obviously, it‟s affecting the
                                                   atherosclerosis can begin at what age?
tissues in that area as well and blood is
what‟s required, a good flow of blood, and
when blood flow is impeded that is the             T.C.C.: Oh, much earlier, these days there is
problem.                                           now talk of plaques existing in children as
       Sperm count, I don‟t know about             young as 8 and 9 years of age.
sperm count. There is a fairly well known
book that was published recently with good
                                                   S.J.: Those studies might not have
information showing that sperm count‟s
                                                   considered if maybe erectile function
actually decreased quite substantially in the      could be problematic for younger people?
last few decades throughout the world. And
some estimates now that it may only be 50%
as high as it once was, that is pretty             T.C.C.: Yes, right. I am just not familiar
alarming. And there‟s a projection by this         with the literature and the numbers on that
author who wrote that book that if it              but that is certainly a very real possibility I
continues on this track pretty soon men are        would think.
going to have no need, there is no need for
men, or they‟re not going to be able to            S.J.: Due to plaque forming,
function, that is the end of the human race I      atherosclerosis, hardening of the arteries
suspect. But the thesis on the part of that        and not allowing blood flow. On a plant
author and others like it, they weren‟t            based diet could one possibly stay virile and
focused so much on the question concerning         avoid impotence much longer naturally
dairy. In that case they were talking about        even until quite elderly without spending a
these endocrine disruptors, the chemicals          fortune on pharmaceuticals and risking
like the chlorinated hydrocarbons, or the          their side effects?
chlorinated pesticides, and things like
dioxin, things like that that tend to be spread
                                                   T.C.C.: Yes. I can tell a little story about
around the world in the environment. And
                                                   that. Dr. Esselstyn, the famous doctor who
reversed heart disease, in his 18 patients,      menstruation was as high as 19 years.
one of whom we met for breakfast one             That is a big change and so what it sort of
morning. He was ecstatic about the fact that     suggests is that if people are consuming a
his heart disease was all better. He was         plant based diet, not pushing the growth of
actually a very wealthy man, by the way,         the children so hard, their reproductive
extremely wealthy, but he just told us, told     years start later. And it could solve the
my wife and I at breakfast that morning at a     teenage pregnancy problem according to an
conference that he had been brought to by        associate of mine who was in my high school
Dr. Esselstyn, that much to his surprise he      class by the name of Gloria Steinem in her
wakes up one morning and he didn‟t have          magazine, Ms. Magazine. That is where that
the erectile dysfunction problem. And he         idea first came from.
was amazed and so word has spread, it has
been noticed many other times, it can be
corrected if people get on the right diet just   S.J.: How about animal products and
like heart disease can be corrected, so it‟s a   constipation?
reversible process. I don‟t know if it‟s
always reversible, or if it‟s reversible after   T.C.C.: Constipation, of course, has been
some period of years, I don‟t know that, but     most directly attributed to how much fiber
yeah erectile dysfunction is nothing more        one is consuming. And so consuming low
than an expression just like coronary heart      fiber diets, obviously can give rise to
disease.                                         constipation. And the late Doctor Dennis
                                                 Burkitt, who traveled all the length of Africa
                                                 in some of his studies, made a lot of
S.J.: Well, so cleaning up one’s diet, helps     observations, amongst people living in the
one clean up one’s arteries, allowing extra      rural areas on plant based foods that their
blood flow or recovered blood flow and           stools are much looser then Western. He
more joy in many ways.                           gave some very comical seminars that I
                                                 attended on that question. But he pointed out
T.C.C.: Absolutely. Let‟s extend that just       as had some of his predecessors before him
one more step too, it‟s kind of interesting.     that constipation was pretty much a disease
You know menstruation is very much a             of the west, of western societies. It didn‟t
function of how fast the girl grows. And         exist in the societies that consumed a lot of
young girls and boys, of course, the rate at     plant based foods. And now we know it‟s
which they grow is a function of how rich        very clear that people consuming plant-
their diet is. If they‟re consuming a really     based diets don‟t have that problem, that
high protein diet, lots of animal foods and so   people who have that problem, people who
forth, they‟re going to grow faster and have     need the what do you call it the H formula
earlier age at menstruation. In our China        something like that, I forget?
Study age of menstruation on average was
17 years compared to about 11 and 12 in
this country. We recorded averages for           S.J.: Preparation H?
some 65 counties, I mean there were some
counties where the average age of
T.C.C.: Yeah, that whole thing is related to     therefore in behavioral problems, such as
the fact that people are consuming animal        with attention deficit disorder or attention
based foods.                                     deficit hyperactive disorder, ADD or
                                                 ADHD, a serious problem according to
                                                 many authorities. And the opiate like
S.J.: Hemorrhoids.                               compounds in dairy could be playing a role.

T.C.C.: Hemorrhoids and animal based
foods.                                           S.J.: In fact some of the peptides are called
                                                 casomorphines and act in the body a little
                                                 bit like morphine, unfortunately since
S.J.: Constipation                               they’re absorbed right in the intestines they
                                                 affect the intestinal muscles to slow
T.C.C.: Exactly.                                 peristalsis and slow the movement of the
                                                 bolus along the intestinal tract, worsening
                                                 risk of constipation.
S.J.: So hemorrhoids resulting from
constipation.                                    T.C.C.: Oh is that right, that is something I
                                                 didn‘t know, good.
T.C.C.: Yeah, hemorrhoids resulting from
constipation, absolutely. That‘s right
Preparation H was for hemorrhoids it wasn‘t      S.J.: Do animal products increase the risk
for constipation per se, but it was related to   of male pattern baldness?
the same complex of problems.
                                                 T.C.C.: Not that I am aware of, but you
                                                 know this whole question of animal versus
S.J.: How do the protein fragments called        plant–based food has such a broad array of
opioid peptides in dairy protein worsen          effects, I tell you any more these days I am
constipation?                                    not surprised to see anything.

T.C.C.: I don‘t know, I don‘t know the
answer. I know about the opiate–like             S.J.: The research has yet to be done.
substances in dairy food, certainly.
                                                 T.C.C.: The research has yet to be done.
                                                 Baldness is largely a genetic thing, it‘s a
S.J.: What is the effect of opiate like          very strongly genetic link we know that but
substances?                                      whether that in turn can be influenced by
                                                 diet I don‘t know. I can make an argument
T.C.C.: Well, there is some speculation,         that it could be, because the little hair
again I don‟t know the literature well           follicles that eventually begin to die, their
enough on this, but there is certainly some      livelihood, their life certainly can be
speculation about the role that they may         influenced by the biochemistry and
play in brain chemistry for example and
physiology of our bodies influenced in turn       atherosclerosis and heart disease, is it ok
by diet.                                          to have high cholesterol or not?

                                                  T.C.C.: You mean high dietary cholesterol?
S.J.: Which diseases is high cholesterol
associated with, only heart disease or with
other chronic degenerative diseases as            S.J.: Or high…
                                                  T.C.C.: High blood cholesterol? Yeah, of
T.C.C.: Well, it seems to correlate with,         course, the connection between dietary
associate with, if you use the word               cholesterol and blood cholesterol is not a
associate; it‟s associated with lots of things.   simple one to one relationship. And, in fact,
It‟s associated with increasing cancer rates,     the level of the cholesterol in our blood may
higher cholesterol levels. We saw that in         be influenced slightly by the amount of
China, we of course know that higher              cholesterol we actually consume, but it‟s
cholesterol levels are associated with heart      more influenced by the kinds of foods we‟re
disease, and with stroke, and often times         consuming that contain let‟s say animal-
with condition that relates to diabetes and       based protein or plant-based protein or how
obesity, if you call obesity a disease which I    much fiber they contain, how much this and
don‟t. But in any case in a whole host of         that; I mean it‟s more than just dietary
conditions like that, that are typically found    cholesterol intake. So your question is in
in Western societies are associated with          reference to the high cholesterol intake or
higher cholesterol levels. But I want to          the high cholesterol in the blood, because
emphasis that I am using the word associate       they‟re not necessarily the same?
here not meaning causality, I am just simply
saying association, And further more I
should point out that as far as cholesterol       S.J.: Well you were saying that cholesterol
levels are concerned we know now that a           may not be causative of disease.
better estimate of these associations is not
total cholesterol, but it‟s the ratio of total    T.C.C.: Right, you mean dietary cholesterol,
cholesterol to the good cholesterol HDL,          the cholesterol we consume?
which also relates to how much of the LDL
or bad cholesterol that we have. So it‟s the
LDL, HDL, total cholesterol complex that is       S.J.: Or the cholesterol in the blood. So if it
more important than the total cholesterol in      really is the animal fat and protein that are
itself.                                           causative is it alright to have high
                                                  cholesterol in the blood?

S.J.: If saturated fat and animal protein—        T.C.C.: One can argue that, that possibility
but not cholesterol per se, if cholesterol is     exists and we do know that people can have
just a marker for disease—if they                 high cholesterol and don‟t get heart disease.
contribute to many diseases, especially           And in the same fashion we can also see
                                                  people who have much lower levels of
cholesterol do have heart disease. So            when that covering becomes sort of
roughly speaking, the amount of cholesterol      thinned, something breaks that and then all
is related to heart disease risk for sure when   the stuff on the inside of the plaque is
you look at large populations, large groups      extruded into the blood. That can give rise
of people, right, but there are deviations for   to a very quick clot and cause a heart attack.
individuals that are quite substantial at        The rupturing of that plaque and the
times—high cholesterol no heart disease,         membrane over the plaque can in fact be
lower cholesterol heart disease. That            related to oxidation phenomena. If a lot of
paradox, so to speak, is resolved to some        oxidation‟s going on, it could be kind of
extent if we look at the ratio of total          rusting away the cover.
cholesterol to HDL that improves it a bit, so
you don‟t have as many of these exceptions.      Tape 4 (Interview 2b)
It‟s further improved by examining how
much of the bad cholesterol is actually
oxidized and that‟s pretty critical, because     S.J.: For those who are concerned about
that indication says that to the extent that     cholesterol, high cholesterol, does
cholesterol may become involved in some of       consuming animal products as well as
these diseases it could be related to the        saturated fats stimulate our production of
extent to which it‟s oxidized. And that makes    cholesterol?
altogether eminent sense. Relatively high
levels of oxidized cholesterol in the body       T.C.C: Yes it does. Yes, that is an
come from people consuming animal based          important point I think. We have always
foods instead of plant based foods, plant        been told for many many years now that if
based foods have a lot of antioxidants that      you want to reduce your cholesterol level
therefore tend to decrease the amount of         through dietary means, we should be
oxidized cholesterol. Now this oxidation         consuming less saturated fat and less
sort of phenomenon that is so important in       cholesterol. Nobody almost ever mentions
so many different disease processes, also it‟s   that we should stop consuming high animal
important in the development of plaque and       protein and the data shows and has shown
the subsequent rupture of the plaque. We         for many many years that the level of animal
know, for example, that plaques alone that       protein being consumed is probably a more
occlude the artery and blood flow are not        significant factor than either saturated fat or
sufficient in and of itself, unless it‟s         dietary cholesterol consumption. Probably
completely closed, it doesn‟t explain very       more than both of them put together. So,
much of the heart attacks that actually          this returns us to the more general statement
occur. That is the closing of the lumen of       or idea that just consuming animal based
the artery. Rather, we now know that these       foods gives us higher levels of cholesterol,
plaques to the extent that they do relate to     higher saturated fat, and most importantly,
heart attack or stroke, have to do with the      higher levels of animal protein. And we
rupture of the plaque and the plaques            could conclude that in consuming that kind
rupture when the covering over the plaque,       of diet we tend to have less antioxidants,
the kind of thin layer of pretty tough stuff     because you are not consuming a plant
that forms over these plaques normally,          based diet. That whole constellation of
factors is clearly all playing a role far more   fatty acids all the way to 22 to 24 to 26
important than just saturated fat or dietary     length. The ones that we have sort of
cholesterol itself.                              focused on, historically, for the most part in
                                                 terms of atherosclerosis are the ones that are
S.J:    How come plant protein and               about 16 carbon units in length or 16,18 or
saturated fat don‟t stimulate production         20 somewhere in that region. Then, further,
of cholesterol?                                  we tend to make the story look more
                                                 complicated by talking about the extent to
T.C.C.: Why plant protein and saturated fat      which they‘re saturated or unsaturated. So,
you said?                                        it‘s the 16-18 carbon chain length fatty acids
                                                 that have commanded most of our attention
S.J.:   Either or.                               over the years, but in more recent years, as
                                                 you indicated, the middle chain, the medium
T.C.C.: Plants‘ fat is more generally called     chain fatty acids 12-14 are now being
oils, and are usually less saturated.            recognized as being probably as significant,
Although we see some saturated fat in            if not more so, than the longer chain fatty
plants, we see much more polyunsaturated         acids. But, again, that is another wrinkle
fats in plant material. We have known for        that helps us to refine our estimates and in
many years that consuming diets that have a      the relationships, but there are so many of
higher ratio of polyunsaturated fats (usually    these kind of additional bits of information.
arising from consuming a plant based diet)       There is the question concerning the total
that a higher ratio of polyunsaturated fats to   amount of fat in the diet. I would just like to
saturated fat consumption lowers the             list these as it‘s kind of important. I mean,
cholesterol. So when there are more plants,      the effect of fat on disease production,
more polyunsaturates there is less               whether it‘s heart disease or perhaps other
cholesterol. So plants don‘t tend to have        disease, in so far as the fat alone is
very much saturated fat, but there are a         concerned, is related to the total amount of
couple of exceptions: coconut oil obviously      fat being consumed. Secondly, it‘s related
has quite a lot of saturated fat and a couple    to the degree of unsaturation, namely how
of others. You can find some saturated fat in    much saturated fat, how much
most plants quite frankly, and you can find      polyunsaturated fat and how much
unsaturated fats and polyunsaturated fats in     monounsaturated fat like you find in olive
some animal fats.                                oil. So the degree of saturation is important,
                                                 and also chain length, which we just talked
S.J.: Mostly there is a big difference           about. Chain length is yet another factor
between shorter chained saturated fats           that seems to be significant here, and then
and longer chained.                              there is the question concerning the
                                                 positioning of these unsaturated bonds in the
T.C.C.: Right. As you know, the chain            fatty acid which are usually characterized by
length of fatty acids is described by the        where the position is relative to the end of
number of carbon units along the chain           the fatty acid chain and we have referred to
going anywhere from let‘s say three or four      them as omega 3‘s, omega 6‘s and omega
carbon units from the simpler short chain        9‘s. So, the question concerning omega 3‘s
and omega 6‘s and the ratio thereof is still    Especially a diet involving whole plant
yet another factor. I just listed a whole       based foods, in which case the importance
bunch of different factors here along with      of these cholesterol lowering drugs is much
the fats, that all are known to play some       less. To answer your question, I suspect that
role.                                           there are people who can‘t change, refuse to
                                                change, or who can‘t get their cholesterol
S.J.: Can more information be found in          levels down even if they do change and they
your book, The China Study?                     still have these very high cholesterol levels.
                                                I can see a case being made for using
T.C.C.: Yes it can be, and it gets pretty       cholesterol lowering drugs to some extent.
complex. You know, looking at all these
details, and quite frankly, you know these      S.J.: Rarely?
details become less important when we           T.C.C.: I mean there are certain people who
consume a low fat diet because in a low fat     are genetically predisposed to having really
diet these relationships become almost          high cholesterol. We call them familial
unimportant. It‘s one of the arguments for      hypercholesterolemia: it runs in the family.
low fat diet. If we‘re going to be consuming    In those situations, sure, I suppose you can
a high fat diet, then we‘re supposed to be      use some artificial means to get it down if
picking and choosing things.                    you can‘t get it down by natural means, but I
                                                think getting cholesterol levels down to their
S.J.: Additional dietary cholesterol            appropriate levels by natural means is far,
beyond what we make is found only in            far more important.
animal foods, never in plants?
                                                S.J.: Could you describe the work of the
T.C.C.: Yes, cholesterol is never found in      medical doctor Caldwell Esselstyn that
plants, only in animal foods.                   you have touched on already.

S.J.: Is it necessary to take cholesterol       T.C.C.: Yes, Dr. Esselstyn is a very eminent
lowering drugs to clear arteries?               physician and surgeon who did virtually all
                                                of his practice at the Cleveland Clinic, the
T.C.C.:       For the most part, no. I am not   famous Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland often
a physician, and I think there is some          rated as #1 in the country for heart disease.
evidence that in people with traditionally      Dr. Esselstyn was loaded with awards and a
very high levels of cholesterol, we know that   very distinguished career. He did a lot of
they can take cholesterol lowering drugs and    operations, and finally, in the 1980‘s
we can see some decrease in the cholesterol     decided that all of his operations for heart
levels. There is no question about that.        surgery and other sorts of issues were not
Cholesterol lowering drugs do lower             likely to lead to less heart attacks and less
cholesterol in many instances, but the fact     heart problems, and so, he decided to
remains that we can also get a lowering of      organize a study of heart disease patients
cholesterol, a substantial lowering of          where he basically changed their diets to a
cholesterol, by switching our diet from an      low-fat plant based diet. He did it on the
animal based one to a plant based one.          basis of his knowledge at the time, and we
didn‘t know each other at that time, of           remarkable change and the arteries started
course. But in any event, he did this study       to open up. He did these kinds of
and started out with 18 patients with             angiograms using reasonably sophisticated
advanced heart disease, really seriously with     medical techniques to actually examine his
heart disease, who had collectively had 49        patients. Not only did they get the results
coronary events in the previous eight years.      that they desired in terms of how they felt,
They were very sick. He put them on this          but also with respect to the elimination of
low-fat, plant based diet. He started them        the angina pains that they often had. He not
out also on some cholesterol lowering drugs       only resolved those problems for them in a
just to make sure that the high cholesterol       practical sense, but then he went to much
got down and you could demonstrate that to        more sophisticated scientifically advanced
them. But in any case, he started out these       techniques to show that, in fact, these
people on that kind of diet, and they stayed      arteries were absolutely opening up. So, to
with it; mostly because he stayed with them.      see in these pictures it‘s very visible. You
He met with them frequently, every two            can see an opening of the arteries. There
weeks I think. He took their cholesterol          could be a huge increase in blood flow and
levels often and really stayed on top of it so    that can occur pretty fast. He has done this
he could be assured that they were                with some friends of mine. Not with respect
complying, and so, 20 years later, those 18       to the pictures, but he has taken friends of
patients middle to older age at the time they     mine who have had angina or other heart
started, have gone from 49 coronary events        problems and put them on this and really has
in the previous eight years to zero over the      had remarkable results.
next 20. Three people have died but not
from coronary disease. His results, I think,      S.J.: So, Dr. Esselstyn took patients who
are perhaps the most remarkable results of        were scheduled for bypass surgery and
this kind in the medical literature of the last   helped them change their diets with the
century.                                          result that they didn‟t need bypass
                                                  surgery any longer.
S.J.: I have here some images of
coronary angiograms of the distal left            T.C.C.: Right. Just recently, I obviously
anterior descending artery before and             can‘t use the name of the individual, but it‘s
after beginning a plant based diet and this       a friend of mine I sent to him who had had
is in one of his later patient‟s without any      bypass surgery about 10 years ago, and he‘s
cholesterol lowering medication. Could            an older man. He‘s 73 now, and as I said
you describe what they show?                      about 10 years ago he had bypass surgery
                                                  because he had heart pains, atherosclerosis
T.C.C.: This fellow he followed very              and so forth, and he has kind of lived with
closely, one of his colleagues actually at the    that over the last 10 years. He tried to
Cleveland Clinic who I think at the time was      change his diet a little bit, not a lot. I told
about in his middle 40s who developed             him about it but he only changed a little bit.
some difficulties. He just was able to show       Well, recently, it got worse. His angina
that, as you said, by simply getting him to       reappeared, and he went to the hospital, a
change his diet, he saw this rather               very famous hospital, and they told him they
could do an operation on him but they were      the first director of the forerunner
concerned that if they did he might not         organization to the Medicare Program and
survive. It was that advanced. So obviously,    was appointed by President Kennedy. His
he was alarmed. He called me up and I said,     wife‘s father was a very famous surgeon at
‗Look, you have to do see Dr. Esselstyn, it‘s   the Cleveland Clinic. He was largely given
time for you to go see him‘, and so he did. I   responsibility for bringing under control the
just happened to have visited this man a        radical mastectomy operations they were
week ago in his home, and his cholesterol       doing in those days. He kind of stepped
level has dropped down to 110 after             outside of the realm of his practice too and
changing his diet. His LDL level is down to     took that on. His wife‘s grandfather is the
something like 40. It‘s amazing. Of course,     founder of the Cleveland Clinic. Dr.
he‘s pleased. His angina for the most part      Esselstyn is so prominent that one could
now is gone, and here was a man really in       arguably say that he‘s Mr. Cleveland Clinic:
advanced stages. The doctors still wanted to    the #1 heart hospital in the world. He‘s
do bypass surgery on him. They urged him        president of his National Society, and he
to do that, and he didn‘t know if he wanted     recently had me to speak in grand rounds at
to do that, especially when they told him he    the Cleveland Clinic. So, when I was there
might not survive. That‘s when he called        on the campus, I gave the seminar in the
me, and so, I said you have an option, you      building that‘s beautiful, a big building; a
can go do this surgery or you can go see        real monument to someone. It‘s called the
Esselstyn. He went to see Esselstyn and he      Crile Building. It‘s named after Esselstyn‘s
has gotten these results. He‘s been a very      wife‘s grandfather who founded the
prominent man in this town by the way for       Cleveland Clinic. This man with such
many years, but I won‘t give his name.          prominence, such personal distinction and
                                                such, quite frankly, humility as well (some
S.J.: I believe you showed an image of          of his colleagues kind of poked fun at him as
the angiogram in your book as well as           Dr. Sprouts) just went outside of the realm
describing more of Dr. Esselstyn‟s work         of his field. He‘s a man of great courage.
in the book, The China Study.                   Most importantly, he‘s a man with a lot of
                                                compassion for his patients, and he got these
T.C.C.: Yes. I have heard Dr. Esselstyn         results. He‘s the doctor‘s doctor. He‘s the
speak on a number of occasions. We have         physician for the former president of the
spoken together at different conferences and    American Medical Association. He‘s the
other meetings and I just am so impressed,      physician for some associates of the Board
and others are too. Here is a very famous       of Trustees at the Cleveland Clinic. It‘s not
doctor who steps outside of his profession in   like they don‘t know him. They know him,
a sense and did something unusual.              and if they want to go to a real doctor, they
                                                go to him. But you know, I find it so
S.J.: Surgery?                                  troubling that somehow I give lectures and I
                                                ask how many people have heard of
T.C.C.: Yes. I also have to tell you            Esselstyn and it‘s almost no one. It‘s
something about Dr. Esselstyn. His father       shameful.
before him was a famous doctor. He was
S.J.: Have other medical doctors besides         believe, he was 19, and so, he had to come
Dr. Esselstyn stepped beyond the                 face to face with his own mortality. He got
conventional to recommend                        obviously very interested and eventually
complementary dietary changes to                 found that this kind of diet had remarkable
improve health?                                  effects and has spent most of his life out
                                                 there vigorously pursuing it and showing
T.C.C.: Yes. There are an increasing             remarkable results. Again, often, almost
number of people who are doing that these        always considered outside of his profession,
days. Probably, Dr. Dean Ornish is best          sadly, when he should be at the core of the
known. He did something similar to               profession. He should be leading all the
Esselstyn but he also used stress                others. There are still others: Dr. Terry
management exercise as part of his program,      Shintani, from Hawaii, a very
and he would have people come there and          compassionate, generous, M.D.; he has a
do it for a week or two to see what benefits     law degree, and M.D. and Doctors of Public
they got. He got some good results also. He      Health. He does this in Hawaii. He has had
published them after one year a fairly short     a clinic there and is doing something very
period of time. He certainly has published       similar. There are many others, like Dr.
his technique widely, and so the Ornish diet,    Michael Croft. One of the more interesting
in fact, Dean Ornish is known much more          ones that I have met in recent times is a
than Caldwell Esselstyn although                 young man, relatively young man in
Esselstyn‘s work is of longer standing, and I    Oklahoma by the name of Dr. Neal Nedley
think more dramatic. Then there are people       who finished up his M.D. when he was 23.
like Dr. John McDougall who has had              A very bright guy and married somewhere
thousands of patients. I think he most           along the lines a woman who was good at
recently told me he almost has had 8,000         physical therapy. That was her thing, and so
patients already run through his program at      together they have been in medicine, and he
his clinic where he treats people with this      ended up in a place in Ardmore, Oklahoma
kind of diet for all kind of conditions and      where he became quite well known for
gets remarkable results on things like           being just a really good general doctor and
rheumatoid arthritis, diabetes. These kinds      internist and now he has turned his attention
of things are resolved pretty cleanly for most   to using so called lifestyle medicine in his
people, to say nothing of heart disease and      practice where he basically has patients
reducing the risk of cancer.                     come to him with all kinds of problems. He
                                                 really gets serious about urging them to try
S. J.: Dr. McDougall is also a medical           the dietary approach instead of the drug
doctor?                                          approach, and he‘s getting remarkable
                                                 results. In fact, the results that he has been
T.C.C.: Yes. McDougall is an M.D., and he        getting with this kind of diet have had a
got his medical degree at one of the big ten     substantial effect on reducing signs of
schools and then went west and eventually        clinical depression. A lot of patients who
to Hawaii and he started there and he was        come to him with serious problems have real
practicing. At a fairly young age, he had a      clinical depression, and with this diet, he has
problem himself. He had a stroke when, I
had a substantial effect on reducing clinical       their diet, and that is the half that he
depression. So he has written a book on it.         worked with to see the results. There was
In any case, Dr. Nedley and his wife and            something like another quarter who tried
another woman who had a health food store           maybe halfheartedly or incompletely, and
in Ardmore have now built a new facility. A         then there‘s always a quarter of the people
beautiful facility, it‘s like a café, health food   who don‘t want to do it. But in any event, if
store, grocery store, and a beautiful place in      you get half the people to do it or maybe
the back for holding lectures and cooking           three quarters of the people to do it, listen
demonstrations and things like that. Dr.            carefully and do it and see the results, that is
Nedley has this practice, and he‘s actually         enough. He‘s going to get a lot of patients
getting referrals from other doctors to him         coming to him for that reason. There are
for what he has been able to achieve. So, he        other young people, some students in my
filled up his office with patients. So, now         class have gone on and are starting to do the
the last thing I have heard, he has three other     same thing. My own son is now going into
colleagues who have joined him, other               medicine, the one who wrote the book with
medical doctors. Now they‘re a group of             me, Tom. That is exactly what he wants to
four. They can‘t keep up with the patient           do. So I think there is a whole generation of
supply. I mean, it‘s really working. The            young people that are coming along now
results he‘s getting with this kind of diet are     and they now know that not only is this
absolutely brilliant. I see this sort of being      information reliable and useful, they‘re
the future of medicine in many ways.                young enough to start off their careers in this
                                                    area and make it work. I have to say that is
                                                    where the real hope is; getting these young
S.J.: It‟s becoming the case that now               people who are into medicine. There is
that the pathfinders have shown the way             another young woman who was in my class
in how beneficial this approach of                  some three years ago now is in Upstate
improving diet can be, people are                   Medical Center in Syracuse and she intends
building substantial practices by                   to do the same thing. It‘s going to spread
advocating dietary improvements.                    with these young people who know how to
                                                    do it.
T.C.C.: Good way to put it, and you know            S.J.: Milk is meant to grow calves from
that didn‘t happen a few short years ago, and       60 to 600 pounds or more in under a year.
I think to some extent a lot of credit needs to     What do you think of the study claiming
be given to Dr. Nedley because of his               that dairy milk products can be used to
personal charisma. He‘s a very pleasant             increase the loss of adipose or fat tissue.
fellow, and I am sure that a doctor of that
kind has a better chance of making this work        T.C.C.: That is a ridiculous claim and it‘s
than others maybe, but he‘s also a very             also now being challenged officially,
competent doctor, and he‘s getting results          legally, and in fact, one of the big dairy
regardless of his personality. He found that,       companies that was making that claim has
I think the figure that he was giving me was        withdrawn it. But it went through a period
something like half his patients took him           for a few months where we all had to hear
seriously and went home and really changed          about this relationship between dairy and
obesity. It was on all the TV shows and          S.J.: Well, that the dairy industry
radio shows, and the dairy industry spent        could basically pay for the advertising
huge amounts of money and they can put it        and has connections to get the
out there regardless of the evidence, and        appearances on shows an promote that
finally, the Physicians Committee for            thread, a very fragile thread of evidence,
Responsible Medicine. One particular             evidence in quotes, that really got later
person on that committee wrote a paper           disproved so that many people got the
summarizing all the evidence, a former           idea without hearing about the lawsuit.
student of mine who has been there as a
director of nutrition. She did an excellent      T.C.C.: Absolutely, that is my point.
job summarizing all of the evidence and it
turned out that only about two of those 17       S.J.: And withdrawal of the claim.
studies were relevant to this question in one
way or another; only two of them actually        T.C.C.: That doesn‘t get publicized very
showed an effect. It turned out that both of     likely.
those studies that showed a beneficial effect
of dairy and reduced obesity were done by
the same research group and were funded by       S.J.: What would be a sound strategy
the dairy industry, but even worse, the study    for weight loss?
was structured in such a way they did not, in
fact, even record baseline calorie intake        T.C.C.: Quite frankly, from many different
which is always a consideration. So, there       perspectives and on the basis of a variety of
was no way to make the conclusion that they      evidence, the best way to go is just a total
were making. How it got published, I don‘t       dietary and lifestyle change. I am talking
know, but it did, and it was on that basis of    about really lots of things working together.
extremely flimsy and quite frankly,              Consuming a low fat plant based diet for
unreliable evidence that the dairy industry      various biological reasons and biochemical
went out and spent millions of dollars to put    reasons can lead to a reduction in body
the story across the land. Of course, they       weight. It may not be the really rapid kind
have been challenged now in respect to a         that you get simply by all of a sudden
lawsuit, and one of the big dairy companies      consuming far less calories for a bit of time,
has already conceded, they‘re not going to       but it gradually decreases and decreases in a
say it anymore. Yet, that story is sad           very healthy manor so that the body begins
because, quite frankly, they were out there      to adapt and so eventually staying on that
long enough to now cause a lot of people in      one can keep their weight under control,
this country to think that dairy might just be   provided, of course that they also add to this
able to reduce obesity in children and dairy     some reasonable amount of exercise. That is
is good thing to now put in schools instead      the lifestyle component and at the same
of the cokes. That is what all this leads to,    time, if they have a stressful life, trying to
even though it‘s a false claim. This is a sad    keep that a little bit under control so that
commentary on our entire society as far as I     they‘re not in a sense driven to eat more
am concerned.                                    than they should be eating because of their

stress which is obviously a relationship. So,   T.C.C: One of the interesting things
it‘s a lifestyle thing but the low fat plant    about this diet and exercise thing, people
based diet is a very good starting place and    sometimes will ask this question, you know,
it probably is the central player in this       ‗how important is exercise?‘ Well, we can‘t
constellation of diet and lifestyle things.     really quantitate things quite that way, but
That will lead to a lower body weight that      the two working together is very interesting.
can be sustained. That is the most important    The two working together create a result that
part of it. It can be sustained, and in the     is greater than the sum of the parts, if you
process, not only do they lose weight, but      will, and there‘s some very interesting
they lower the risk for just an enormous        physiology and chemistry going on here. If
number of different diseases that tend to be    people eat right, a low fat type of diet and
associated with obesity for example.            taking into consideration calorie intake and
                                                so forth, and look at the blood chemistry,
                                                this actually leads to a distribution of energy
S.J.: Many years ago, I was 50 pounds           in the body in favor or a greater urge to have
heavier with adipose tissue, and I gave up      physical activity. We did this kind of study
milk products to lower saturated fat            in rats, and when switched to a low protein
intake and cholesterol intake. Well, that       diet, for example, they can actually consume
seemed to really be the key to allow me to      more calories and gain less weight: maintain
begin losing weight, and that was before I      lower body weight and they can gain excess
went vegan. Just giving up the milk             calories. What happens is that some of
products, and so, here‟s a before and           those extra calories they consume in a larger
after picture. It has been very gratifying      fraction actually go off as body heat instead
to feel lighter and to be able to get around    of body fat, and some of it goes off to
more readily.                                   stimulate them to exercise. So if you offer
                                                them a wheel to spin a wheel beside their
T.C.C.: That is interesting, I also today       cage, they actually exercise a lot more,
weigh 45 pounds less than I once did, and I     voluntarily exercise.
lost much of that, of course I am older and
one tends to lose some weight as you get
older obviously, but not always. I actually,    S.J.: So that is actually contrary to the
lost most of this as I really changed my diet   mythical belief that you need the animal
too.                                            protein to get exercise.

S.J.: Now as a vegan it‟s very easy to          T.C.C.: Absolutely.
maintain an ideal, for me, weight.

T.C.C.: Absolutely. And also, I suspect you     S.J.: To have high metabolic activity.
still remain physically active.
                                                T.C.C.: Absolutely. These are animal
S.J.: That‟s it.                                experiments, and that is what came about. If
                                                you start looking at humans to see how they
                                                correspond, we did things with the animals
incidentally to find out some interesting
things. The animals consuming less protein
are consuming more oxygen. This is very          S.J.: Or break it up, several brief walks
interesting. So they ended up having a           several times a day.
higher BMR and then of course, they
expended more of the calories in two ways.       T.C.C.: Exactly, and you can also add in
First, they had a little higher BMR, so          some components like being out in the
calories came off as body heat, and              sunshine and making sure you get enough
secondly, some of these calories were used       water and enough sleep and so forth and so
to stimulate exercise. So you start thinking     on. It‘s a great formula.
of this in the context of humans. You know,
the same thing is happening, but then on top
of it, let‘s say you tell the person the other   S.J.: Are there any diseases that
way around. Let‘s say they‘re way                changing diet wouldn‟t help?
overweight. ‗Why don‘t you go exercise?‘
So they go exercise, with difficulty usually,    T.C.C.: I am sure there are, but I am finding
but they‘re exercising: doing the best they      it harder and harder to find such diseases. I
can. As they lose their weight they get          mean some of these genetic disorders, you
stimulated to want to eat differently. Their     know rare genetic diseases obviously,
taste preferences begins to change too. So,      probably we can‘t do much about, maybe.
the exercise in a sense almost can lead to
dietary changes in the right direction, and
dietary changes in the right direction can       S.J.: For example?
lead to more appropriate exercise patterns.
                                                 T.C.C.: I can‘t even think of some of the
                                                 names of them. I think muscular dystrophy
S.J.: You don‟t have to exercise and start       for example might be difficult to control
off from 0 and go to an hour and a half a        through diet. I don‘t know that. In animals
day.                                             muscular dystrophic kind of condition can
                                                 be influenced by diet and maybe it can in
T.C.C.: No                                       humans too, I don‘t know.
                                                 S.J.: Well would a high animal product
S.J.: Just anything, 5 minutes.                  diet worsen symptoms, for example?

T.C.C.: Whatever.                                T.C.C.: It would be my guess yes. That
                                                 would be my guess.

S.J.:   20 minutes, 10 minutes.                  S.J.: So symptoms could be ameliorated
                                                 even if the disease could not be reversed
T.C.C.:          Whatever you can do             entirely?
reasonably comfortably but pushing it just a
little bit, staying with it. The two together,   T.C.C.: I think so.
it‘s truly remarkable.
S.J.: Possibly ameliorated.                        particularly in the context of history and
                                                   it‘s really quite remarkable.
T.C.C.: Right. After thinking about this,
you know, every disease you once thought
was pretty much family oriented or                 S.J.: So with plant based foods one
genetically oriented, and then with the            could possibly maintain a high level of
passing of time, I think these so called           mental acuity throughout most of life
diseases kind of fall by the wayside. You          even until quite elderly?
can no longer explain the causation of these
diseases that way, and we see more and             T.C.C.: Yes.
more evidence that even difficult diseases
may be ameliorated as you say or maybe             S.J.: We have spoken about maintaining
even reversed with appropriate diet, and that      mental acuity and virility. How about
is one of the remarkable things about this         other markers of aging?
diet, the diversity of response that is created.
A wide spectrum of conditions.                     T.C.C.: Like aches and pains maybe?

                                                   S.J.   Sure.
S.J.: How about Alzheimer‟s and other
forms of dementia?                                 T.C.C.: I just got reaffirmed in some of this
                                                   talking to a very well known physical fitness
T.C.C.: Same thing, Alzheimer‘s has been           guru who works with professional athletes a
associated with meat consumption. It has a         couple weeks ago as well as a book that I
very strong relationship.                          just recently read on hydration. Those two
                                                   experiences, reading the book about
S.J.: A tight correlation.                         hydration, written by an M.D. by the way,
                                                   and also meeting this fitness fellow, and at
T.C.C.: Pretty tight. I mean not so much           the time that I was talking to him a couple
correlation but was more so called case            weeks ago, he was actually working with a
control studies. Just asking people who had        Russian tennis star, #1 ranked tennis player
Alzheimer‘s or comparable people who did           in the world who was at the Wimbledon. At
not, same age, same sex and that kind of           that time, he was called in to see her because
thing, you could see a substantial increase in     she was competing at a very high level and
risk for those who consume more meat and           we were having some discussions, and it
animal based foods. Even with things like          turns out that on that basis as well as on a
cognitive dysfunction, a little bit of senility    personal basis, hydration is very important,
if you will that can lead to Alzheimer‘s and       good diet is very important. As far as aches
at least is associated with a higher risk of       and pains are concerned, as one gets older
Alzheimer‘s. That too is associated with the       everyone tends to incur a few more aches
ratio of animal to plant based foods being         and pains of the joints, muscles or whatever,
consumed. It wasn‘t until we actually did          probably not keeping in shape to be honest
the book that I had an opportunity to go           about it in a large measure. I have found for
back and look at some of the work of others,       myself, I do a lot of running and am very
active and once in a while I get an ache and      So called macular degeneration is the
pain. I don‘t know where it comes from but        chief cause of blindness among older
every time I stop and think about it, I           people. We know that has a close link to
haven‘t drunk enough water the previous           diet. Even cataracts, which are not a fatal
day, and so I can tell that by other sorts of     thing, not even necessarily a cause of
signs. If I drink enough water, it goes away.     blindness for the most part, but they‘re
I don‘t really slip off the wagon as far as my    common and troublesome. That has a
diet is concerned ever really, so I can‘t say     relationship with diet, same fashion. Animal
that. I think that for older age people, we       based diet increases the risk for cataracts.
know that rheumatoid arthritis which is an        Animal based diet increases risk for macular
affliction of older people, of course, more       degeneration and blindness.
than of younger people, that is greatly
attenuated by a proper diet. Dr. McDougall        S.J.: So, if a person is reducing the
has shown this with lots of people. I just ran    markers or signs of aging does that mean
into somebody last Tuesday night talking in       reducing the processes of aging or many
Rochester. A man came up to me at a book          of them?
signing with almost tears in his eyes and was
quite emotional about it. He had somehow          T.C.C.: Yes, what is age? Aging, obviously,
gotten a copy of the book somewhere along         to some extent is rusting away of our body
the line and his 16-year-old daughter had a       or deterioration of our tissues or loss of
serious case of rheumatoid arthritis and she      function. I mean that is part of life, and a lot
was really in a difficult way, and so she         of these problems do arise and up and focus
started this diet, and he just couldn‘t believe   in tissue here or there and end up being
the response that she was seeing. As I say,       called a disease of one kind or another. So a
he was really taken by this. Of course, I         lot of these diseases we‘re talking about are
pointed it out him. And she had quit dairy        age related. Obviously, they tend to occur in
by the way, and I thought that probably was       older people, and can you call these diseases
one of the main things. So, I just told him       a sign of aging or is aging naturally linked to
and he knew this: that Dr. John McDougall         these diseases? I don‘t know how one
had been doing this fairly routinely. So, I       would, I think to some extent this is sort of a
wasn‘t surprised to hear it but it was really     matter of semantics.
nice to hear that someone so young with that
serious of a problem came to the talk. I
didn‘t speak to her but you know something        S.J.: Maybe the animal based diet
like rheumatoid arthritis and other kinds of      increases the rapidity of aging and the
arthritic conditions are the sources of pains,    plant base slows it down.
very clearly, and it‘s more common in older
people, and I think it can largely be             T.C.C.: Right.
controlled on the basis of the evidence that
we now have. What else could we think of          S.J.: Or even reverses the signs, some of
with old age? We talked about impotence.          the signs of aging to some extent or to a
We talked about mental acuity, blindness;         large extent even in the case of impotence
even people get blind for different reasons.      from impotence to virility.
                                                  S.J.: The Irish medical doctor Denis
T.C.C.: The way I like to say it these days is    Burkitt came to some remarkable
this dietary effect, that is, the plant based     conclusions after serving for 10 years as a
diet, maintains health and prevents disease       Minister of Health in Uganda. He
simultaneously. Now, it‘s a little bit            encountered diseases such as heart
redundant to say it that way because if you       attacks and chronic intestinal diseases
are maintaining health you are obviously          mainly in people who had sojourned in
going to be preventing disease. If you are        the West and then returned to Uganda.
preventing disease, you are likely to             He came up with a striking quote, “Small
maintain health. I am going to throw              stools, large hospitals”. What did he
something else in here that has nothing to do     mean by that?
with prevention of disease; it has to do with
what we mentioned before: mental acuity,          T.C.C.: Well, I knew Denis Burkitt by the
physical activity. We know from studies of        way, and as a matter of fact, when he got a
lead athletes that there are lead athletes, and   rather prestigious award in this country for
there were Olympic-type athletes who have         his life‘s work, he invited me down to be his
found that their performance is enhanced          principle speaker at the ceremony. He
when they consume this kind of diet.              turned out to be a good friend.
                                                  Unfortunately, it was just two months before
S.J.: Especially endurance.                       he passed away, but Dennis Burkitt was a
                                                  very remarkable honest man. I had great
T.C.C.: Endurance, even strength. One of          respect for him. He traveled, I think,
the people who came to my class was a             something like 10,000 miles over really
world champion wrestler for four years, a         back country roads all over Africa trying to
vegan. He was a captain of the American           find out basically something about disease
Olympic team in 1992 and was the oldest           and how it compared with the West as you
person to win a medal in wrestling.               indicated, and he used to give these amusing
A vegan, he later became the executive            seminars with that quote after showing some
director of the Olympic boxing team, and          pictures of stools and things like that in the
had me out to speak to the team because he        West and the rural countryside. What he
was so enthused about this that he wanted         really meant by it was that when people are
the whole Olympic team, especially the            consuming the typical western diet, low in
boxing time which hadn‘t been doing very          fiber high in fat, they‘re much more likely to
well, to become vegans. You know, there is        get constipated, compacted. The way he
evidence in the literature going back a long      described it was very quite amusing but it
ways, all the way back to the ancient Greeks      was tragically true that the stress and strain
that elite athleticism as well as just overall    with that kind of diet translated into
physical performance can be enhanced with         hemorrhoids, translated into constipation,
this kind of diet.                                translated into other kinds of western disease
                                                  such as colon cancer, he thought at least, and
                                                  in which case you need big hospitals.
Tape 5 (Interview 3a)

In contrast, he told how the people in Africa   with more plant food consumption, so we
would step off into the bush and do their       saw a high correlation between blood
business and then back to work, and this was    cholesterol levels and the consumption of
certainly more frequent by considerable         animal based food such as meat, milk and
amount than what happens with people in         dairy, although they didn‘t consume much in
the west. In his view, that was the best of     the way of dairy, but there were two or three
medicine, that was the best of health and       areas that they did and hence the association.
you didn‘t need much in the way of              In contrast, the blood cholesterol levels were
hospitals to take care of that problem.         inversely associated with dietary fiber,
                                                different kinds of dietary fibers, legumes
S.J.: Did your research in China show a         and the like, and that was really a very
relationship of animal based foods to           powerful observation in my view because
degenerative diseases in addition to            the cholesterol levels in China were already
cancer?                                         very low, as we‘ve talked of before, going
                                                from somewhere around 80 or 90 mg a
T.C.C.: No, not really. What we had done        deciliter up to about 170 or so. It was within
was to look at all the disease rates we had,    that range as they move from 80 to 170 that
some of which are typical western kinds of      we found that as the cholesterol tends to go
disease, some of which are typical diseases     up it‘s highly significantly associated with
found in poor countries which tend to be the    the consumption of more animal food and
infectious kinds of diseases and the diseases   less plant food. I know that is kind of a long
that associate with poor public health          winded answer but it was an important
facilities understandably, and so, we           observation especially since the range of
basically learned that the western kind of      cholesterol that we were considering in this
diseases tended to aggregate together in the    case was already quite low.
same geographic areas and the so called
poor country disease aggregated in              S.J.: So did heart disease increase along
somewhat different areas. Of course, that       with cholesterol as a marker?
suggested to me that there would be some
common causes, and of course, our minds         T.C.C.: Well, heart disease overall in rural
can range far and wide as to what these         China was quite low, and quite frankly, we
common causes might be. They might be           didn‘t really see any significant heart disease
biological, they might be social, they might    when you get below let‘s say about 150-160.
be economic, they might be this, they might     So there was very little heart disease present
be that, but we had an opportunity to see, in   in China, and you tended to see it at the
fact, if the biological information we had      higher levels. So that is not enough data to
associated with this group of diseases would    really make too much of that within rural
amount to anything. It turned out that the      China, but when you compare this range of
western diseases were associated with blood     cholesterol with the extended range you see
cholesterol which in turn is associated with    in the West, of course, we know that blood
animal food, to get back to you question.       cholesterol levels are highly associated with
Cholesterol tends to go up with more animal     heart disease.
food consumption and it tends to go down
S.J.: So in China, the range just didn‟t
reach anything like the high levels of            S.J.: Okay, whatever correlates.
cholesterol that you see in the west.
                                                  T.C.C.: Yes.
T.C.C.: That‘s right.
                                                  S.J.: So in that regard, couldn‟t getting
S.J.: And that is why the study didn‟t            more exercise help to keep the Chinese
show an increase in heart disease with            healthier rather than diet?
cholesterol and didn‟t show a relationship
of animal based food to degenerative              T.C.C.: Yes, of course, exercise we know
diseases in addition to cancer?                   from many different studies, as you know,
                                                  Sylvester, it‘s obviously very good, and we
T.C.C.: Correct, you are absolutely right.        have lots of evidence to show it‘s going to
                                                  help to reduce the risk of these diseases. In
S.J.: Just because the range of eating            China, it was not something that we could
animal products didn‟t increase enough.           look at very carefully because virtually all
                                                  the Chinese were quite active. The Chinese
T.C.C.: That is exactly right.                    had a way of segregating people into
                                                  different groups for experimental purposes
S.J.: Or even when people ate some                in so far as their exercise is concerned
animal products, they were mainly eating          ranging from those that were involved in
plant based food.                                 very heavy exercise all the way down to
                                                  those that were let‘s say doing office type
T.C.C.: The range in China was kind of just       work who were presumed to be the people
beginning to penetrate the western range a        who were doing the least exercise, but even
little bit, but only on the low side, and you     in that case, the Chinese people who
don‘t see much heart disease there;               supposedly go into the office went to the
therefore, from an experimental point of          office on bicycles.
view, it‘s hard to see an association.
Interestingly, within that same range, I must
say, a number of different cancer rates also      S.J.: So there wasn‟t any group in the
went up. Others hadn‘t made much of that          study that really did no exercising. So
in the past, and I am not sure that it had ever   you really couldn‟t distinguish disease in
been reported.                                    relationship to exercise since everybody
                                                  was getting enough exercise to help the
                                                  immune system for example?
S.J.: So cancer might be more
susceptible to animal based foods and
animal fats.                                      T.C.C.: Exactly. Precisely. It just wasn‘t
                                                  possible to sort of tease out that relationship
T.C.C.: Perhaps, or you know whatever it is       and have a very careful look at it because
that people are doing when they start             everybody was exercising quite a bit.
consuming animal based foods.
S.J.: Well, how about the fact that people         S.J.: Even though you don‟t know
in third world countries don‟t live as long,       what else it might it might correlate with?
so they don‟t have time to develop
degenerative diseases, doesn‟t that                T.C.C.: That is true.
invalidate the conclusions?
                                                   S.J.: You talk about exercise, what
T.C.C.: No, actually, it turns out that the        about pollution or something like that? Is
accrued disease rates across different             there anything else that could correlate
countries are influenced by what proportion        that would invalidate the results?
of each population is living to be older.
Obviously, with population of a higher             T.C.C.: I mean those other factors from
proportion of older people, they‘re going to       some other different kinds of studies you
have more of these kinds of diseases. So in        know are proposed from time to time to
that case, you can‘t compare one population        relate to cancer especially the presence of
with another in that they may differ in age        environment chemicals that are mischievous
distribution. So what we do in determining         and bad, but we really didn‘t have a chance
statistics is to age adjust, as we say. In other   to measure that kind of thing really. So in
words, we weight each population according         exercise, of course, we were limited there
to a common base of age of distribution, and       too, but we could, of course, look at the
in that particular case, then we can compare.      relationship between diet and disease rates,
So in effect, for example in rural China           and in spite of what those other factors may
where the age distribution might be quite          or may not be doing, it‘s clear that diet does
different than here, what we‘re doing, I           have an effect. Incidentally, the effect that
think, to put it in the simplest possible          we see, again, as we have talked before, is a
words, we‘re comparing people within a             very broad based effect involving animal
fairly narrow range like all 50-55 year old        foods in general, and that, in turn compares
people in each society one with another.           favorably with more discriminating kinds of
Now that is fair you see, now we‘re just           studies that might be done on selected
comparing people of the same age bracket           groups of people in other types of studies.
and determining what is their risk of getting
disease. That is a very different kind of          S.J.: In India, a higher percentage of the
question. Under those circumstances, we            population consumes milk products than
can compare different populations by doing         in China. Do they get cancer more often
that, and incidentally, virtually all data are     than the Chinese, do you happen to
done that way these days. So in most               know?
studies, you will see that it has been done.
                                                   T.C.C.: No, I don‘t know that. I just don‘t
S.J.: So do the results of the China study         know what the comparison is between India
support the relationship of animal based           and China. I do know that in India they‘re
foods to cancer?                                   having a problem with heart disease these
                                                   days, higher than what otherwise would
T.C.C.: Yes.                                       have been expected I think, especially in
                                                   regard to the fact that India tends to
consume more plant based foods than in
China. They have a history and a culture        S.J.: More hip fractures?
that is rather friendly to consuming
vegetarian types of diets, and many Indians     T.C.C.: Exactly. But you know there is
are that way, but they‘re getting more heart    another factor in the whole dairy association
disease than what they want and a lot of this   that should be mentioned. That is, and this
is attributed to the fact that they‘re          is kind of interesting, dairy tends to be
consuming a lot of ghee, you know the dairy     consumed obviously in the temperate zones
fat. They really use a lot of that, and that    of the world rather than the tropical zones.
certainly is contributing to some of it.        It‘s much more commonly consumed in the
                                                temperate zones, and to the extent that dairy
S.J.: So if they‟re using ghee rather than      is consumed in the tropical zones, it tends to
the whole milk product, the protein part        be more fermented and much less is
of it, as much, then they would be more         consumed. It turns out cows grow better in
susceptible to heart disease than cancer.       colder climates. They don‘t accommodate
                                                so well in warm climates except for a couple
T.C.C.: Perhaps.                                of different breeds, and as you get to the
                                                northern climates where cow‘s milk is
S.J.: Because of their consumption of           consumed, that is also the region where
dairy.                                          sunlight exposure is less. Sunlight, of
                                                course, produces vitamin D in the skin, and
T.C.C.: Perhaps. There are some studies         we know now that vitamin D is important in
now going on in India trying to analyze that    helping to prevent cancer. So there is, at the
question more carefully, but I am just not      present time, quite a discussion in literature
familiar with the results enough to comment.    about the role of the lack of vitamin D being
                                                associated with these diseases which tends
S.J.: How about throughout the world,           to coincide with the simultaneous presence
do people in areas with higher                  of more dairy.
consumption of milk products also
experience higher cancer rates?
                                                S.J.: Vitamin D would be more
T.C.C.: Yes they do. If you plot dairy          associated with osteoporosis rather than
consumption, which incidentally is only         cancer?
consumed by a minority proportion of the
population of the world, but if you compare     T.C.C.: Actually, yes, it always has been
dairy consumption across different societies    discussed primarily in context of
and cancer rates, you see more cancer rates,    osteoporosis, but now we know too that
more heart disease, and more diabetes in        vitamin D is important in preventing cancer.
countries that consume more dairy.              Although that is a relationship that has to be
                                                considered very carefully because it‘s really
S.J.: And more osteoporosis?                    the vitamin D that is transported to the liver
                                                in which case it‘s metabolized to hydroxy
T.C.C.: More osteoporosis too.                  form and then subsequently is stored in the
liver also. Then it‘s transported again to the    foods it tends to repress the formation of
kidney where a very tiny, tiny fraction of it‘s   that very important last product of vitamin D
converted one step further to so called           which in turn raises the risk for cancer and
dihydroxy vitamin D, and it‘s that form, that     these other things: osteoporosis and the like.
latter form that is very, very important in a     So it‘s a really interesting network of
number of different events in the body, not       reactions that as far as the bottom line is
the least of which tends to prevent the           concerned goes back to the consumption of
conversion or the transformation of normal        animal protein based foods as being a single
cells to cancer cells. So, it‘s important to      factor. So, you go to the northern climates,
have adequate amounts of the dihydroxy            you get less sunlight, let‘s say, you see more
vitamin D. That raises a very fascinating         cancer and immediately people want to
question, how do you make sure you have           attribute that to the factor that they‘re not
enough of the so called highly active             getting enough sunlight, not enough D, but
dihydroxy vitamin D that is being produced        by the same token, they‘re consuming more
in the kidney? Well, the body is another          dairy which in turn is going to negatively
place where nature‘s really developed for         impact the vitamin D activity that is there
itself a rather wonderful scenario of             and is limited in the first place. It‘s really
reactions to make sure we always have             quite a fascinating story. Fascinating story
enough of this latter product if we have          of how, in this case, the food is interacting
enough vitamin D in the first place. We can       with an environmental condition to create
get enough vitamin D if we get adequate           together a compromised situation that can
exposure to sunshine. But in those                lead to cancer.
situations where people may be restricted;
they don‘t get enough sunshine, they‘re in        S.J.: So, actually, the biological science,
cities or whatever, they don‘t get enough         the biological plausibility is the
sunshine, they don‘t get enough of vitamin        relationship between D and milk products
D and therefore, they suffer not having           and the population studies varying. All of
enough, and that is what lead to the              these come together to show an even
movement several decades ago of                   stronger support for the hypothesis that
supplementing vitamin D in dairy products         dairy is correlated with cancer.
especially and now some other foods too.
The story gets kind of complicated, but one       T.C.C.: Absolutely, I think this is one of the
of the interesting things about dairy and         parts of science that I particularly like,
vitamin D that I find interesting is that that    looking for that context and to see if, in fact,
dairy obviously is a good source of protein       the observations we may make in a test tube
and as we talked before, the protein animal       or in a lab or in a single experiment, all of
in origin, of course, tends to create a           that correlates with other things and to see if
metabolic acidosis decreased in the pH a bit      it fits so to speak. As in what you just said,
and that metabolic acidosis actually impedes      especially in reference to dairy, sunlight,
the conversion of the hydroxy form of             vitamin D and cancer, it‘s all kind of coming
vitamin D in the liver to the kidney from the     together.
dihydroxy that is really needed. So, when
one is consuming animal protein based
S.J.: I‟m looking at a different kind of           disease. It takes a big study and it takes
study. Could you please describe the               time to see that kind of thing, but it certainly
Physician‟s Health Study and the Health            is a plausible hypothesis. There is no
Professional Study and the association             question about that.
those studies found from milk products
with prostate cancer.
                                                   S.J.: It‟s of interest that it has been
T.C.C.: They did some work obviously on            supported by a study that the virus
that question and found a relationship             crosses species and infects chimpanzees,
specifically in their study between dairy          an animal model of course, very close to
consumption and prostate cancer, but more          humans, and also that a majority of dairy
to the point, I think, really one of the most      herds are infected and that dairy farmers
eminent members of that group, Dr. Ed              experience a higher rate of leukemia.
Giovannucci. Actually, it covers some very
nice work not only in sort of formulating          T.C.C.: I have heard of some of those
hypotheses and explanations of how all this        studies. You know maybe more about than I
works but concluded after summarizing a            do in this case. That certainly sounds a little
number of different studies on the                 alarming, I wouldn‘t say necessarily
relationship between dairy and prostate            convincing but it certainly is indicative of a
cancer that concluded with his colleague,          real problem here.
Dr. June Chan, that when you look at all
these studies together, dairy is the most          S.J.: Whether people have Type 1 or
significant factor in so far as it‘s association   Type 2 diabetes, the excess sugar makes
with prostate cancer is concerned, and Dr.         the blood more like molasses than freer
Giovannucci, in fact, I think, gave a very         flowing normal blood so that the
nice description of possibly how that could        thickened, more viscous blood fluid
work. I liked it because it just made a lot of     damages fragile tissues and restricts
biological sense. I think he‘s correct.            nutrient and waste flows throughout the
                                                   body. How can changing diets help
S.J.: Does bovine leukemia virus pose a            diabetics?
threat to humans?
                                                   T.C.C.: There‘s really some very convincing
T.C.C.: It‘s said to by a number of different      work and it goes back many, many years,
people. I am just not familiar enough with         back to the 1920s at least, showing that in
the data, and I think the data is a bit sparse     diabetics, Type 2 diabetics in this case, adult
on this question, but there are some who will      onset insulin independent Diabetes is
argue with me and say no it‘s getting pretty       commonly found in adults. Those
strong these days, and they will cite certain      individuals when they‘re put on a high fiber
evidence to say it is. This is the kind of         diet, plant based, can really bring that
thing, talking about the transmission of an        disease largely under control, and that kind
infectious agent, if you will, from one            of information has been popping up from
species to another and then in turn relating       time to time for 60-70 years, and now we
that to the presence or the absence of             know from a number of clinics and other
studies that the effect is really quite           in these particular animals, and it turns out
remarkable and convincing.                        in that particular case, once again, it‘s the
                                                  vitamin D connection which in turn has the
S.J.: Besides Type 1 diabetes, even               connection to animal protein, in turn has the
multiple sclerosis and other autoimmune           connection with the dairy, that all supports
disease such as rheumatoid arthritis and          what we generally see on a population basis.
lupus are associated with animal                  So, it‘s too early to really put your finger on
products. Does any food stand out as              it and say ‗okay this is the food that causes
particularly risky?                               one of those diseases necessarily‘, but I
                                                  don‘t particularly like to do that anyhow
T.C.C.: This is, first off, looking at the        with any disease, any diet-disease
information on those autoimmune diseases, I       connection, but broadly speaking, the dairy
am intrigued by the fact that those diseases      connection is getting to be very convincing.
tend to occur in regions of the world where       In my view, it‘s not just the presence of
dairy is consumed. They also tend to occur        dairy but it‘s also perhaps the presence of
in areas, as we said before, of the world         other animal foods too, and the extent to
where there is less sunlight. So, I think, it‘s   which those kinds of foods work on one of
very possible, and it‘s looking at it very        those autoimmune diseases might, in fact,
broadly, that dairy has a support and             differ obviously under different
association with a number of these different      circumstances. It may be stronger for one
diseases and people have published on this.       disease than for another disease, but is quite
Some work in France, I know was published         clear that the biochemistry and also the
maybe about 15 years ago on that question         comparative population data that those two
and earlier about 20 years ago others have        groups of that kind of evidence when
published on it, and so, they see these           coupled together, say that dairy has the
general relationships which certainly raises      potential of a really serious problem here as
ones consciousness about the fact that the        far as those diseases are concerned. There is
association between dairy and the presence        one other factor in those diseases that we
of these autoimmune diseases is real. Then        have to take into consideration maybe more
in the last 10 years, 15 years perhaps at the     so than other diseases, and that is genetic
most, some very good biochemists have             background. It turns out that especially in
begun to tackle this question and have            Type 1 diabetes with children. The children
looked at the biochemical events going on in      who are likely to be susceptible to these
the formation of these kinds of diseases:         effects we‘re talking about, the dairy, etc.,
lupus, MS, we have a model in animals that        there is a subset of children who do appear
mimics the MS situation and mimics the            to have a rather different genetic makeup
lupus situation and also the rheumatoid           that can in fact be measured in these people,
arthritis situation. These are pretty good        and so it‘s sort of a genetically susceptible
models. It‘s an autoimmune disease that has       subgroup of the population that seem to be
been created in such a way that animals can       susceptible. That is very clear, but it‘s not
get that disease, and so now they‘re              clear how that genetic predisposition is
beginning to study some of the mechanisms         really translated into susceptibility but there
associated with the formation of that disease
is genetic component here, I think, that is      and if they don‘t have dairy then they‘re
probably pretty important.                       much lower risk maybe equivalent to those
                                                 who are not, in fact, genetically predisposed.
S.J.: Even without dairy proteins
triggering the autoimmune problems?
                                                 S.J.: It‟s a tragic price to pay for
T.C.C.: That is open to question. I don‘t        wearing a white mustache.
know that.
                                                 T.C.C.: Yes, it‘s especially for the African
S.J.: No research has been done in that          American race. I mean the African
area?                                            Americans we know as well as the Latin
                                                 Americans, and this is true for Asians too,
T.C.C.: There is some research that suggests     but in our continent, I think, the Latin
from what I have seen that genetically           Americans and Hispanics have been
susceptible babies, in this case, who don‘t      probably studied most. In any event, those
go on dairy, don‘t get the disease.              two ethnic groups have a very high lactose
                                                 intolerance, and we have known that for a
S.J.: So you have seen a study?                  long time. With blacks for example in the
                                                 United States, the percentage of people who
T.C.C.: Yes, we have seen this kind of thing.    are lactose intolerant is somewhere around
It seems to me, I think many would argue         75-85%, with Hispanics it‘s probably
we need to see more of this kind of              higher, and unfortunately, you find some
information to really become convinced of        black celebrities agreeing to put the
that, but of the evidence that I have seen,      mustache on their face, and surely, they
you see this. So, I think it leads to this       don‘t know. I don‘t believe that they‘re
notion that we talked about before that all of   obviously aware of this information, but
these biological events whether they‘re -        they have been co-opted into the system
pathological or physiological you know           with money, I‘m sure.
disease or health and these events really are
starting with DNA which is the main              S.J.: Particularly counter-productive.
component of genes. It starts that way and
we all have the presence of perhaps the          T.C.C.: It‘s very counter-productive and
wrong kind of genes on occasion either           obviously in their case they‘re not doing
because we‘re born with them or because          their own race any good, let alone other
they‘re acquired during our lifetime, and        races. The white mustache thing you could
those diseases even though we may have           say, I guess, is a great marketing tool but
them it turns out we can learn to control        that is really all it was, it had nothing to do
their expression, and this is one of the         with health. It was money.
instances I think where this is beginning to
play out. Children who have that genetic         S.J.: I hope the word gets out so that
predisposition and are exposed to dairy are      people don‟t make the mistake of
going to be at very much higher risk of          promoting it any longer.
getting Type 1 diabetes. That is quite clear,
T.C.C.: Right.                                  frankly, have just forgotten what the
                                                details of that galactose pathway is.
S.J.: Could you describe the work of the
medical doctor Joel Fuhrman?
                                                S.J.: Well, if people were to eliminate the
T.C.C.: Yes, Dr. Fuhrman is a productive,       source of the galactose…
interesting physician. He incidentally was a
world class ice skater and was in               T.C.C.: Yes, of course.
championships, and so, you can say he‘s an
elite athlete as well. Joel, who I know         S.J.: Mainly removing the lactose in
personally, has become very interested in a     dairy can…
couple things. He has become interested in
the plant based diet and in even for the most   T.C.C.: Resolve…
part raw food plant based diet kind of thing.
He also has become interested in the idea of    S.J.   Indeed, ameliorate the problem.
fasting, water-only fasting, and he has
published a book on each of those things.       T.C.C.: Yes, absolutely.
He has recently also published a book on
this kind of diet for youngsters in pediatric   S.J.: Many people develop partial
age groups. Joel is very much, I mean he        blindness due to degeneration of the
and I and Dr. McDougall and many others         macula, the tissue that receives light in
are in the same camp in general. I think Dr.    the eye. One of the main causes of
Fuhrman, if there is a difference between       macular degeneration is free radical
Dr. Fuhrman and myself, it‘s that he tends to   damage that can be prevented by
favor a little more of the nutrient             antioxidants. What roles to free radicals
supplements. He‘s a little quicker to use       and protective antioxidants play in other
those than I would, but he‘s a physician and    diseases?
I am not, so, I think it‘s something that we
have to continue look at, maybe he‘s right,     T.C.C.:        I think the free radical idea
but at the present time, I am not quite as      which was born under obviously
enthusiastic for the use of supplements as he   controversial conditions,
is.                                             (I was, in fact, involved in those early
                                                discussions myself) is fairly recent, but free
S.J.: When does undigested dairy                radical activity I think is really one of the
galactose form deposits in the lenses of        great areas to think about in terms of disease
the eyes forming cataracts?                     formation because free radicals are highly
                                                oxidative as you know well and highly
T.C.C.: I don‘t know. It has something to       oxidative reactions can amount to rusting
do with lactose metabolism or digestion         and so in a sense, if we have a lot of free
hydrolysis into its two components. Lactose     radicals in our body it‘s only exacerbating
being a disaccharidant to galactose and         the rusting of our body and aging of our
glucose, it‘s the galactose component that      body which is not good and plays a role in
seems to be involved in this, but I, quite      cancer, plays a role in heart disease, plays a
role in this, plays a role in that. I mean a lot   scar tissue and fibrotic tissue and things
of diseases are exacerbated by the presence        like that and that‘s what free radical activity
of free radicals and the formation of free         can do. If that kind of tissue has been
radicals is in part a natural process but in       formed, no, I don‘t know of any evidence
nature in our bodies the free radicals that can    that antioxidants can necessarily repair scar
be formed in some of these complex                 tissue, but it certainly can stop the whole
reactions tend to be controlled quite a lot,       situation right there. There is evidence
and so they don‘t cause mischief, and one          though, interestingly, that you can have scar
might even argue at low levels maybe               tissue, within the cell or between cells or at
they‘re doing something worthwhile to              the tissue level, that can be overgrown; let‘s
simulate our bodies to work in certain ways,       say you put it right and it can be overgrown
but obviously we tend to produce excess            by normal tissue which would tend to make
free radicals. Then you can ask the question       it look like it‘s disappearing. But as far as
‗well, how do you get excess free radicals         this specific chemical reaction is concerned
and that kind of damage?‘ Well, one way to         of actually repairing that, let‘s say
get excess free radicals not to consume            converting a fibrotic tissue back to a normal
enough of the antioxidants of plants. So, if       tissue, I am not aware of any evidence that
you don‘t consume enough plants, you don‘t         that can actually occur; but maybe that is a
get enough antioxidants in order to impede         moot academic point to some extent because
the activity of these pro-oxidants or free         if you are going down the wrong road and
radicals which is an imbalance of                  you have scar tissue and it‘s accumulating
antioxidants and pro-oxidants, and we have         and all of a sudden you change your diet,
some evidence too that animal foods, protein       and you say, ‗ok put the brakes on,‘ you stop
in particular, stimulate the performance of        it, and then subsequently, the normal tissue‘s
pro-oxidants or free radicals. So it‘s coming      encouraged to grow and gradually covers it
back to kind of balance between animal and         up.
plant foods, but as far as these specific
radicals are concerned or specific
antioxidants are concerned, we can‘t put our       S.J.: Let‟s say that the liver or the
finger just on one kind of free radical; there     kidney has gotten to a large extent
are many different kinds or one kind of            dysfunctional but not necrotic; can plant
antioxidant. It‘s a whole family of                antioxidants help the body repair that
antioxidants and free radicals that are            tissue?
competing with each other.
                                                   T.C.C.: I am going to say yes.

S.J.: Do plant antioxidants play a role in
tissue repair?                                     S.J.: In sense of increasing functionality
                                                   and getting themselves more vibrant.
T.C.C.: Well, they should certainly prevent        T.C.C.: I am going to say yes but I can‘t
further degradation. As far as repair is           give you any specific reaction that occurred
concerned, I think if you are talking about        to me straight off.
damage that already occurred that lead to
S.J.: Without supporting research, the              the richest sources of protein indicates the
instinct is yes.                                    seeds, the bean, the legumes, especially
                                                    legumes. There is a plant that is drawing
T.C.C.: My instinct says yes, but I have to         nitrogen from the air, able to convert the
put my critical scientific hat on in this case,     nitrogen in the air to organic nitrogen or
and I can‘t tell you specific reactions. I have     protein, and so it becomes quite rich. So
to think about that a little bit.                   things like soy, peas and peanuts and things
                                                    like that and other kind of beans are a good
S.J.: But switching diets to plant based            source of protein, lot of protein, plenty of
diet could help.                                    protein.

T.C.C.: Oh, yes.                                    S.J.: What do you mean when you write
                                                    „the whole is greater than the sum of its
S.J.: Just to eliminate the disease                 parts‟?
promoter would help?
                                                    T.C.C.: Well, it‘s one plus one equals four
T.C.C.: That is right.                              or five or six or ten instead of two. Things
                                                    work together. Statistically speaking, we
S.J.: And whatever good phytochemicals              talk about interactions. You know you can
that are in plants might also help?                 actually measure interactions at times with
                                                    this kind of synergy but we do it in a rather
T.C.C.: Sure.                                       simplistic sense, I would argue. In science,
                                                    we tend to look at A plus B and if you look
S.J.: So as far as plant antioxidants per           at them separately it gives you, whatever,
se, research is yet to be done. All plants          some number, but then it turns out the
contain protein. Does eating a variety of           interaction between A and B might add still
whole and refined plant based food                  more; it‘s not just an additive thing, it adds
provide plenty of the essential protein             still more. So we can dissect out that kind
building blocks so that we can make all             of relationship from a statistical point of
the proteins we need?                               view, and we can study it. We see it, and we
                                                    know it exists. The problem is what do you
T.C.C.: Absolutely. If we‘re consuming a            do when you have got not just A & B,
good plant based diet with lots of variety as       you‘ve got a few tens of thousands of A‘s
you have just indicated, meaning the whole          and tens of thousands of B‘s. and C‘s., and
foods, the bran layer of cereal grains has          D‘s, and E‘s, and F‘s and you know all those
protein and that is good, the flour on the          interactions are going on. Now talking
inside of the grain does not, not to any            about the whole is greater than the sum of its
significant extent; so we have to eat the           parts is, quite frankly, a very substantial
whole grains A. B, We should be eating the          statement. It really is. We can see from a
other portions of the plant, the leafy material     larger perspective and this is one of the
is rich in protein, so are the things like I call   reasons I get interested in the larger
the flowers and buds of cauliflower. They           perspective because just allowing for this
also have some protein. Of course, one of
effect of the whole is greater than the sum of    vitamin C-like response? No way, it turns
its parts to be expressed is fascinating.         out that often times that the vitamin C level
                                                  is only about maybe 1% of the vitamin C
                                                  that is there that actually ends up causing a
S.J.: Can taking vitamin supplements              vitamin C-like effect. That‘s the whole is
make up for not eating many veggies?              greater than the sum of its parts, and this guy
                                                  a professor at Cornell University, Rui Lu
T.C.C.: It has been a hotly debated topic for     who has been doing some of that work with
quite a number of decades now, essentially        apple skins and grape skins in showing that
two or three decades, much of which have          the effect that is actually produced, a
been during my career because vitamin             vitamin C-like effect for example, cannot be
supplements weren‘t much used before 20-          attributed to just the vitamin C in the fruit
30 years ago. So that argument has been           peel. It‘s quite interesting. I think the
playing out and debated quite widely. In          question you just asked is one of the more
fact, I was just talking to someone this          important questions, we all should think
morning about that very question. There is        about that to realize that the evidence is so
some evidence, and I have always tended to        far produced. It does really strongly, and I
say, ‗No, they can‘t, they just can‘t‘. These     mean strongly, reinforce the idea that eating
vitamin supplements cannot replace what is        the whole food is a lot better than trying to
in the whole food. But there are a little bit     take out a single vitamin and put it in a pill
of cracks here and there; maybe. You know         or something like that, but I have to say at
where, if a certain food, in theory, is missing   the same time, maybe there are occasions in
all of its water soluble antioxidants such as     the short run when you can take a vitamin
vitamin C and somehow it got destroyed or         supplement you can kind of fill in whatever
whatever happened, and then you dump              is missing for a short while but to rely on
some vitamin C back in; you might restore a       that is in my view not a risk, it‘s pretty much
little activity. But this is kind of an           nonsense. It has to be whole food. These
academic question, and in large context, in a     supplements are costly, anyhow. It costs us
practical setting, no. There is no point on       money and then we turn around and for the
relying on nutritional supplements when you       most part urinate them out anyhow.
can get the whole food. Just to mention, as I
said, I was just talking this morning to          S.J.: Dr. Michael Klaper‟s Vegan
someone and we were comparing some                Health Study has found by offering an
notes and where if you take the whole fruits      extensive range of blood tests that many
and vegetables and then look at, your sort of     vegans are deficient in DHA. Please
test it you study it, you look at its             comment on the recommendation that he
antioxidant activity in the whole and then        has made that vegans supplement DHA
let‘s say you are looking at the antioxidant      source from algae.
activity in terms of its ability to do vitamin
C-like work and you get a certain result.         T.C.C.: I just don‘t know enough about that
Then you look to see how much vitamin C is        information. I know Dr. Klaper quite well
really there. Can vitamin C account for all       and I know that he has been promoting that.
that work that was done to create that            DHA is sort of an omega 3 type of product.
                                                  the wagon. They may be people who are
J.S.: Long chain omega 3.                         somewhat resistant to change too. That is
                                                  always a possibility. But here is the
T.C.C.: Exactly. We know omega 3‘s have           interesting thing about these people and Dr.
a lot of good properties especially in the        Klaper‘s, and I really admire his work and
immune system and immune system                   attempt to try to find this out. We need to
function, and I know he has basically             do more of that kind of work, and that is
proposed and I think he has some clinical         something. These kinds of questions are
evidence to suggest that DHA is good and          here for us to think about, the sort of
that vegans aren‘t getting enough of that.        challenging questions that we don‘t know
The only problem now speaking in general          fully the answers to. You know, why a
about Dr. Klaper‘s work, he really is very        certain small fraction of vegans don‘t get all
conscientious and a really wonderful person       the benefits that others do. I would argue
and very conscientious about working with         that that is the kind of research that we need
vegans. He‘s doing more work with vegan-          to do much more so than trying to find a
type people than anybody I know of, and           new drug for a new disease.
he‘s, of course, an MD, a doctor, and he‘s
doing this kind of thing. He basically is         S.J.: Based on this kind of extensive
trying to understand why it is that a certain     range of blood tests to get an overall
small fraction of so called vegans don‘t          snapshot.
seem to behave the right way, as far as
disease is concerned. They still maintain         T.C.C.: Which he‘s doing.
fairly high cholesterol levels for example,
maybe 5% of them do or maybe more but             S.J.: The laboratory analysis that he‟s
they seem to be resistant to the kind of          doing. Also in this study, he has found
benefits that most vegans would get, and so       widespread deficiencies in vitamin B12.
he‘s trying to understand something about
those so called resistant vegans. Some of us      T.C.C.: Yes.
think, and I think he acknowledged this, that
those vegans who are not getting all the
benefit that they think they otherwise would      S.J.: But aren‟t many Americans
get may not be aware they‘re cheating a bit       whether consuming animal products or
in their diet. In other words, they might be      not deficient in B-12?
using foods that are less than whole, get into
the sugars and the flours and things like this.   T.C.C.: Yes, that seems to be the case. B-12
In which case, they‘re not getting enough of      seems to be somewhat low. But in a lot of
the right, the good kind of stuff. So it may      those cases, too, we have to keep in mind
be a plant based diet but it‘s not what they      deciding whether it‘s too low is based in
really should be eating, and some of us           large measure or comparing against the
believe that those 5% of the people haven‘t       reference standard. You know how much B-
quite taken that step yet, and quite frankly,     12 we think should be there, and based on
aren‘t even quite aware of it themselves.         other examples, sometimes we set these
You know that they‘re kind of slipping off        standards to reflect, in this case, a meat
eating population, in which case the B-12 is     do with what vitamin D is really doing
somewhat higher. We set the standard up          because it‟s the subsequent dihydroxy D that
here, now you go to the vegans, they don‘t       makes the difference, and the body has this
have as much and you say oh they‘re              marvelous way of being able to control how
deficient. Well maybe they‘re the ones who       much of the storage form is converted from
have the right amount, you see. That was         moment to moment as it needs it. Of course,
certainly true in the story on cholesterol. It   our body can work with a fairly low level of
used to be, even in my lifetime in my            storage as well as a high level of storage
younger years, 200-300 mg of cholesterol in      and still do it just about the same. So, we‟re
the blood was considered normal and we in        measuring the storage form of vitamin D
fact, even got to the point, where if people     and finding out that supposedly we‟re low
had levels as low as 150 to 160 they were        and then we get more vitamin D in order to
abnormal and they were at risk. So, through      fill up the storage form. That doesn‟t make
the last 30-40 years that range of 200-300       a lot of sense to me. It doesn‟t make a lot of
has been changing, and the reason 200-300        biological sense. What we need to do if
was considered normal was only because           we‟re going to measure vitamin D status is
that was the normal distribution for people      to measure the dihydroxy vitamin D in the
eating the western diet.                         blood. The really good stuff, which is only
                                                 present in about 1/1,000th of the level of the
Tape 6 (Interview 3b)                            storage form but it‟s also about 1,000 times
                                                 more active. That is really the business end
S.J.: The appendix of the China Study            of the story. Unfortunately, that hasn‟t been
provides a very useful explanation of the        measured. Now, in more recent studies that
metabolic pathways for biosynthesis of           I have seen, some studies have started to
vitamin D as you have already explicated,        measure that a little more effectively and
so deficiency can cause many disorders           that‟s good, but that in turn, the amount that
possibly even multiple sclerosis?                is actually produced, we can‟t administer
                                                 that end stage metabolite because it‟s very
T.C.C.: Right                                    active and in fact, it‟s toxic. If you tried to
                                                 inject that into people, it possibly could kill
S.J.: Many people test low in vitamin D.         them. The body is working with this very
Should D get supplemented during the             powerful vitamin D metabolite, this
winter or during days spent in doors             dihydroxy, but it‟s deciding on its own basis
without exposure to sunlight, or by the          when to make it and how much of it to make.
elderly every day?                               So, I think it‟s a great story of how nature
                                                 has framed this thing has developed this
T.C.C.: Unfortunately, the measurement of        whole thing to control how much of the final
vitamin D in our blood in many of the            metabolite is produced from time to time.
studies has depended on the measurement of       Over the long term, we should recognize
the storage form of vitamin D in our liver.      that things like animal protein, for example,
That is the first metabolite that is produced,   impede that formation. So, I didn‟t want to
called the hydroxyl vitamin D. Within            put that chart scheme at the end of the book
limits, the storage form doesn‟t have a lot to   just to illustrate a point, not so much that I
wanted to put all the emphasis on vitamin D,     whole calcium metabolism scheme, and so
but instead, simply to illustrate how            during the premenstrual period when
interconnected reactions are. This is only a     estrogen is going down this will allow more
very small snapshot of that kind of              calcium to be lost in the bones. One way to
interconnectedness that occurs throughout        stop that is to give some vitamin D, store it
our cells and throughout our body but it‟s       of course; you can give calcium too. It‘s
certainly something that shows how               rather a simple minded way of trying to
sunlight, in this case, interacts with food,     manage a complex system that is probably
interacts with hormones. The parathyroid         better managed by whole foods and eating
hormone interacts with very specific kind of     the right food in the first place.
disease responses and health responses. It‟s
all there.
                                                 S.J.: Then the estrogen swings might not
S.J.: And you have mentioned how                 become so extreme.
animal proteins can inhibit the
metabolism of vitamin D so that might be         T.C.C.:       Yes, that is right. Not so
why there is an epidemic of D deficiency         extreme and the total amount of estrogen in
even in milk drinkers, even though D gets        the blood during reproductive years is not
added to milk?                                   going to be so high if they eat the right food.

T.C.C.: Correct. You have said it well.          S.J.: In fact, I believe that binging can
                                                 result when the swings of estrogen level
                                                 are very extreme because of cravings that
                                                 arise during a low period.
S.J.: Why do vitamin D and calcium help
to alleviate some symptoms of                    T.C.C.:       I didn‘t know that.
premenstrual syndrome like anxiety and
irritability?                                    S.J.: So, it‟s another example of how it
                                                 all comes together when switching diet to
T.C.C.:        I don‘t know, I can only sit      plant based food.
here and speculate on that one.
Premenstrual syndrome is when the estrogen       T.C.C.:       Right
levels, the normally high estrogen levels that
are circulating during the reproduction          S.J.: Again, plenty of calcium can be
cycles begin to drop, and when the estrogen      obtained from such foods.
levels start going down, then it puts at some
risk calcium metabolism and some other           T.C.C.: Right.
kinds of changes and so this simplistic
pharmacologic answer to that, if you will, is    S.J.: Dr. Campbell, throughout your
to just give calcium supplements or give         career, you have conducted research that
more estrogen such as an HRT, hormone            puts animal products in a bad light.
replacement therapy, and vitamin D in that       What has been your motivation, are you
particular case is an important player in the
an animal rights activist or an                  advocate side, since close primate
environmentalist?                                relatives of humans, the chimpanzees and
                                                 bonobos eat rodents and insects, it‟s
T.C.C.: No, that is not what propelled me in     plausible that the progenitors of humans
the beginning, not at all. If I were an animal   ate small animals for millions of years?
rights activist, I guess I would not have used   Hasn‟t that consumption of animals over
experimental animals in the laboratory to        an evolutionary time scale led to
learn what I have learned. I mean that is        dependency on getting a very small
answer enough. So, I simply was not that. I      amount of animal products several times
don‘t want to discount it at the same time.      a week? For example, our low synthesis
Obviously, I don‘t want to discount it, it‘s     of L-taurine, the amino acid, compared to
very important, the arguments in favor of        herbivores and the existence in people of
animal rights. There are obviously very          intestinal receptors specifically for the
good arguments. We have to be conscious          absorption of heme iron since it‟s found
of this and sensitive too, and I am becoming     in significance amounts only in animal
more sensitive as time passes, to be honest      foods?
about it, but it was not my motivation. As
far as environmental concerns, I think I can     T.C.C.: I‘m not sure what your question is.
say more or less the same thing. I love the
outdoors, I love the environment. I think        S.J.: So, in short, since we‟ve
we‘re doing terrible things to our               consumed, our progenitors have
environment but that wasn‘t my motivation,       consumed animal products in very small
but I certainly appreciate the arguments that    amounts over a long period of time,
are made on that score, if we just eat right.    evolutionary time scale, and we have
                                                 made adaptations over that period such
S.J.: On an evolutionary time scale,             as absorption of heme iron does that
people have been consuming milk                  make a case that humans are not
products from other species for very a           herbivores but rather omnivores?
brief period, so milk products could be
called unnatural and least likely to be          T.C.C.: Well, perhaps. I don‘t know
tolerated by people. Many vegans argue           whether we‘re total herbivores. I‘m not an
that people evolved as plant eaters since        anthropologist or paleontologist so I can
the length of the intestinal tract, with         only rely on what others have said and
respect to body length, is so much greater       published. One of the people who actually
than that of carnivores making the rotting       has become quite popular in this field, at
of animal foods with our virulent                least whose view and my view are being
pathogens much more likely than in               distorted, is Lauren Cordain, a professor at
carnivores. Many other aspects of our            Colorado State University who wrote the
anatomy conform to that of herbivores,           Paleolithic Diet. I have heard him, I‘ve met
for example our incisor teeth are short          him. I have been on a panel with him, and
and stubby like those of cows not like long      unfortunately, his views are being used to
fangs of cats. However, looking at the           argue that we should be consuming a very
other side of the coin, to take the devil‟s      high animal foods diet, but in reality, he
actually argues that our nearest living             also today from the empirical data, we‘re
primate relatives, are only consuming 3-5%          just seeing things. We were basically a
at most animal based foods and that is              vegetarian type species. We may have
mostly insects. Now, he also is opposed, he         consumed some animal food, yes, we have.
says drinking milk makes no sense. It‘s not         I think that is probably true, but I don‘t buy
generally known about his work, I think, and        the argument that somehow that justifies
there are others in that field too who argue        eating this very large supply of animal food
that eating wild animals because of having          these days that, quite frankly, is so different.
different fatty acid composition are more           It‘s not even close to being the same as wild
favorable omega 3 to omega 6 to give a              animals. Feed lot operations and animals
specific example. Eating some wild animals          pumped up with all kinds of stuff these days
in small amounts may have been in our past,         to get them to grow twice as fast as they
and I can‘t dispute that. I think what they‘re      otherwise would. No, that is not in my
saying is perhaps correct, as part of our           book.
dietary history, and we may, in fact, have, as
a result of consuming a bit of that, adapted
to, lets say, absorbing taurine or may have         S.J.: If we were carnivores then we
adapted to some extent of having some               would be able to handle such a huge load
modest ability to handle that kind of food,         of animal products with a short digestive
but, if that is the truth, if that is what really   tract.
happened, to me in no way does that argue
that in a context of the modern world that          T.C.C.: Yes.
we‘re supposed to eat not 3-5% of our diet
in the form of animal food but 70% as we            S.J.: But ours is very long, indicating
do. The average American ranges                     that we‟re mainly herbivores to a greater
somewhere between about 50% of total                extent.
calories in the form of animal food to close
to 100%. In the case of protein, which is our       T.C.C.: Yes, I would even say in a much
most important signal indicator, about 75%          greater extent.
of our total protein is animal based on
average. So we‘re largely carnivorous.
That is no where near what maybe we did in          S.J.: And to such an extent that many
the past, not even close, and so, I believe not     people can thrive on a vegan diet.
only on those grounds but even probably
more importantly on biochemical grounds             T.C.C.: Of course. One of the interesting
just seeing how all the biochemistry relates        questions that is raised here, though, is that
in a favorable way to the chemicals                 some people have tried this and then gone
consumed in plants and in an unfavorable            off and said they need just a little bit of
way to the chemicals consumed in animals,           animal food. I don‘t know how to judge that
the nutrients if you will. That combination         kind of comment. If they were being really
of evidence from the biochemical level,             honest with themselves and they‘re not
from the archeological level,                       somebody being prejudice or biased…who
anthropological level, that combination and
knows? Maybe they do need a little extra         S.J.: He could very shortly
protein, I don‘t know, or something.             unfortunately. As we age and make fewer
                                                 growth factors, could the growth factors
S.J.: It may be that some small                  in milk give us more vim and vigor?
percentage has problems with absorption,
so that they fail to thrive because of that      T.C.C.: I don‘t think so. I think that, if
reason.                                          anything, they‘re likely to cause us to be a
                                                 little more hyperactive. Especially for young
T.C.C.: That‘s right, it could be.               children. It‘s acknowledged, incidentally
                                                 now, even by people who are likely to be
S.J.: So they eat a small amount? If that        defenders of dairy consumption, it‘s
is what is required to thrive. As long as        acknowledged in print, in official print
the rest of the diet is a whole unrefined        literature, that the single most important
plant based diet? Otherwise…                     food allergen we consume is dairy, and it‘s
                                                 also acknowledged that the kind of allergic
T.C.C.:        Yes, I think we totally agree.    responses that we get are highly variable,
It seems to me that is the kind of consensus     ranging from hyperactivity to acne to
opinion that should form and not the             intestinal disorders to all manner of
alternative, bipolar kinds of opinions. It has   problems so dairy is a problem there.
to be 100% vegan for every single person on
the face of the planet and we‘re supposed to
expect excellent health for everybody. This      S.J.: So then as you mentioned, rather
is just probably not a realistic assumption,     than giving us more vim and vigor, milk
and in contrast, I know somebody who eats        products, including cheese, contain
nothing but animal food. He‘s still pretty       components that make people feel less
young but I don‘t know what is going to          vigorous?
happen to him.
                                                 T.C.C.: In the long run, yes.
S.J.: Not even pizza with a crust?

T.C.C.: I don‘t think so. Not that I am          S.J.: What would you say to people who
aware of. He‘s a bit overweight already.         can‟t envision letting go of cheese?

S.J.: Oh, he‟s following a high protein          T.C.C.:       Well, I would be talking to
diet, so he‟s going to the extreme and           myself a little bit, because I happened to
testing that diet. Unfortunately, he might       have liked cheese a lot and was raised on a
end up with some kidney problems.                dairy farm, and that was the one food that I
                                                 had the most difficulty giving up, and I
T.C.C.: That is right. He‘s just not of the      don‘t know what I would say to them. I
age yet so he might not necessarily see the      guess I‘d say to them the same thing I say to
problems.                                        everybody, make the change, be persistent,
                                                 have patience and eventually

you will begin to discover there is a whole       S.J.: From the standpoint of human
new world of taste and you will begin to be       health, are milk products the first to let
adapted to those tastes and then you              go of while minimizing or eliminating
certainly won‘t have that addiction to the old    other animal products, in a transitional
foods, and you will actually begin to reject      state?
them. But I don‘t know whether that is ever
true with cheese for people who like cheese.      T.C.C.: I almost want to say yes. Primarily
                                                  because I think the evidence for dairy is
                                                  more incriminating.
S.J.: What is a safe amount of animal
based foods for those who choose to eat           S.J.: Ironically, many vegetarians gave
some? Is there a safe level?                      up the flesh products in favor of the milk
                                                  products. Unfortunately, and possibly
T.C.C.: It‘s going to vary between different      not to the benefit of their health.
individuals. Obviously, some people can
tolerate, as we talked before, smoking all        T.C.C.: Right, they may have made the
their lives and live to be quite old, a very      wrong choice.
small fraction of people of course, and I
think the same susceptibility to animal foods
is going to vary a lot between different          S.J.: But as a transitional phase, the first
individuals. For certain individuals,             would be to let go of milk and then ideally
especially those who are highly vulnerable        to migrate to almost an entirely or
to heart disease or already have heart            entirely a plant based diet.
disease, consuming even small amounts of
that kind of food could be really quite a         T.C.C.: Right.
problem. Others, probably, can tolerate a
little more, but it‘s a very hard thing to        S.J.: What problems can eggs present?
quantitate. With animal foods, when you
think of them in their totality and you ask       T.C.C.: I think there are at least a half a
yourself ‗are they likely to do harm or good      dozen studies that have shown an
on balance for any individual?‘, all the          association with egg consumption, because
evidence to me points that if it has any effect   their high sulfur content creates a condition
at all it‘s going to do harm.                     in the intestine that leads to certain kinds of
                                                  colon problems, possibly colon cancer. The
S.J.: In fact, it‟s hard to eat just a little     old story, of course, is that eggs have a lot of
of some food.                                     cholesterol and this is a very cholesterol rich
                                                  food and that was talked about a lot over the
T.C.C.: Yes, that is true. Because if you         years, but there are some studies showing
really like that food you get addicted to it,     that some people can consume quite a lot of
we all know you can‘t smoke one cigarette a       eggs and don‘t necessarily get a high
day if you are inclined to want to smoke. It      cholesterol level, but it varies across the
doesn‘t work that way.                            board again. I was just talking to someone
                                                  this morning, Dr. Esselstyn, my friend who
talks about that. They‘re doing the brachial
artery-tourniquet test. You put a thing on
your upper arm, stop the flow of blood, and      S.J.: Some digestion and absorption
then you eat an Egg McMuffin breakfast and       occurs very quickly.
the amount of pressure that is formed under
those circumstances happens very quickly         T.C.C.: Yes, it sure can.
after consuming that breakfast: the arteries
tighten up and get occluded and the pressure
builds up and you can test it by this test.      S.J.: Are we engaging in scare
That is my understanding about the way it        mongering sensationalism or is the
works.                                           problem that the effects of animal based
                                                 foods are just plain scary?

S.J.: That is astounding!                        T.C.C.: Well, I don‘t look it as scare
                                                 mongering, and certainly, I am not interested
T.C.C.:       And it happens within minutes.     and have no interest in scaring people. I
                                                 think that if we just state the facts as they
S.J.: An autoimmune reaction?                    exist, for some people that is going to
                                                 frighten them quite immediately. Other
T.C.C.: He‘s very interested in the effect of    people are going to pass it off, but we have
foods on the endothelium of the inner artery.    to have sort of a sensible sane approach to
He‘s interested in the role of the endothelial   this kind of information and just realize that
cells in not only healthy arteries but also in   you know that there is something better than
the process that leads to atherosclerosis.       consuming those kinds of foods.
                                                 So, if we‘re really interested in our health
S.J.: But how could it occur after a few         and decide to try it (plant–based foods),
minutes, I mean it takes a while to digest       most of us will learn we like it.
it?                                              I don‘t like to think of the scare tactic. I
                                                 have no interest in using that approach
T.C.C.:     Have you ever eaten asparagus        myself.
and seen how fast it comes through to your       I generally think people are reasonably
urine?                                           rational but obviously, unfortunately, I am
                                                 probably wrong and a lot of people are not
                                                 very rational.
S.J.: Yes.                                       S.J.: How come people lose weight and
                                                 control any tendency towards obesity by
T.C.C.: It‘s pretty fast.                        eating lots of complex carbohydrates?

                                                 T.C.C.:       A couple different reasons:
S.J.:     Okay.                                  When they‘re consuming lots of complex
                                                 carbohydrates, that means a very high plant
T.C.C.: It‘s really pretty fast. I don‘t know    based diet, and unless they add oil to it, it‘s
how it gets in there so fast.                    going to be low in total fat and oil. On that
account, they‘re consuming much lower             T.C.C.: A lot of it does, but the way I look
amounts of oil or fat, which has 9 calories       at it, I guess, is that industry is still in the
per gram compared to carbohydrates and            early stages and they gradually evolve to
they‘re less likely to over consume into          produce better products as time passes.
those high calorie dense foods if it has fat in   Some of their products are obviously very
it, calorie dense fat. There is another issue     good.
here though, too and that is when consuming
a high carbohydrate diet, the protein intake
tends to be somewhat lower which favors           S.J.: You are talking about processed
that combination of the low protein high          foods.
carbohydrate, complex carbohydrate I
should say, that favors more of the energy        T.C.C.: Yes, and that raises another
that is being consumed to be extended by          question, when I say very good, I mean
body heat or perhaps to stimulate physical        they‘re tasty. However, processed foods
activity. In which case then, it doesn‘t get      even though they may be vegan can be a
laid down as body fat. So there are a             problem.
number of things going on here and we
could talk a long time about that but I think     S.J.: So how can you avoid the
probably the most important thing is simply       cardboard image of the health based diet?
consuming a diet that favors the disposition
of calories in the form of body heat. It          T.C.C.:         I only speak from personal
increases a bit the metabolism and it doesn‘t     experience. In our own home where my
take much.                                        wife has been so good about creating
                                                  different kinds of dishes, it turns out that
                                                  there are many just wonderful dishes that
S.J.: In addition to using oil, a very high       you can consume and they look attractive on
calorie density food, the mistake                 top of it, if that is important to people. There
frequently made in following a high               are all these interesting tastes and people
carbohydrate diet is eating low nutrient          have become accustomed to them and they
highly refined processed carbohydrates            like those tastes. I have become addicted to
instead of the whole grains.                      having a salad. For somebody else that may
                                                  be cardboard and maybe it was for me to
T.C.C.: Right.                                    some extent in the beginning too.

S.J.: So to lose weight, one needs to eat         S.J.: Do you use an oil based dressing?
whole unrefined vegetables, fruits,
legumes and grains containing these               T.C.C.:       No, if there is any oil in the
complex carbohydrates plus a small                dressing that I use it‘s a very, very tiny bit.
amount of fatty foods such as avocado,
nuts and seeds. But doesn‟t eating health         S.J.: What kind of dressing do you use
food taste like cardboard?                        then?

T.C.C.:       Mostly vinegar or some kind      S.J.: Because if you want to fill
of vinegar derivative. I may use some          yourself up, you can fill up with that
ginger in it.                                  mainly and then go to the legumes and
                                               the grains.
S.J.: So, basically, a water based
dressing.                                      T.C.C.: Right.

T.C.C.: Primarily.
                                               S.J.: A friend once asked, „Doesn‟t
S.J.: Actually, considering the huge           eating lots of veggies poison you with
variety of plant foods, the choices are        pesticides?‟
much broader than the standard meat            asdf
and potatoes kind of plate that you get in     T.C.C.: There‘s been a tendency for people
the restaurant or at home.                     to think there are so much more pesticides
                                               on vegetables than in animal foods. As far as
T.C.C.: Absolutely, the variety is much        the concentration on some of these foods,
greater. Someone can play around with          yes, you can see more pesticides on the leaf
trying all different kinds of things more so   of a spinach if it‘s grown under those
than just throwing a slab of meat in the       conditions than you can see, lets say in a
frying pan and frying it.                      piece of meat, in theory, because it means
                                               you are not getting _______. That is only a
S.J.: And you can use lots of herbs if you     surface argument though. The important
want.                                          thing about this is that a lot of these
                                               pesticides, especially if they‘re fat soluble,
T.C.C.:      Right, exactly.                   bio accumulate. Animals spend their time
                                               eating grass and crops like that for several
S.J.: And make it totally delicious. But, I    years perhaps and these chemicals don‘t get
do still have to limit myself if I want to     metabolized, they don‘t get excreted, they
lose weight. I can‟t just eat all I want.      accumulate in the fat. So, things like dioxin,
                                               DDT, these kinds of pesticides and things
T.C.C.: I think that is generally true, but    like that which are fat soluble, it turns out
again, another thing you can do to control     they accumulate in the fat of the animal. So,
weight, of course, is to maintain a good       it‘s estimated that somewhere around 95%
exercise program.                              of our intake of those kinds of pesticides,
                                               etc., are coming from animal foods. They
S.J.: Or eat a lot of the green veggies        aren‘t coming from plant foods because
which are low calorie and in addition to       where there is a concentration in the overall
exercise.                                      animal food, especially when you consume
                                               the fat along with it, people do, that is where
T.C.C.:      That‘s right.                     we get our pesticide from. Not from the
                                               plant foods, even though the initial
                                               concentration on the plant food may be
                                               under some circumstances higher than
animal foods. But the animals have been         S.J.: Discounting the effects of
accumulating and storing, we‘re eating          concentrated poisons, how do animal
pesticide stores when we‘re consuming           products affect the nervous system,
animal food.                                    contributing to emotional problems such
                                                as depression, irritability or attention
S.J.: In regards to heavy metals, can           deficit hyperactivity disorder?
plant based foods help us control the
adverse effects by chelating, helping the       T.C.C.: I simply cannot speak to the
body to chelate the heavy metal and             mechanisms of that at all. I am not sure that
excrete it?                                     really anybody can very much, but the ADD
                                                or ADHD, as sometimes we call it, those are
T.C.C.: I have heard some reference to that,    disorders that seem to represent an allergic
but I don‘t know. I don‘t know especially       response in many cases, because we know,
with reference to the heavy metals because      if you take kids, for example, who have that
the heavy metals don‘t seem to be in very       problem and take them off of dairy, there is
much of the natural environment although        a lot of evidence, either with dairy or in
they can be. I mean you can find arsenic in     some cases other offending food allergens,
certain areas that are much higher than in      you take them away and their hyperactivity
other areas, and in Taiwan, I believe, it‘s     disappears. In one of these I suspect an
said that arsenic can be found in some of the   embryological response, but which of those
water supplies. There are some pretty           immune function components are really
classic studies showing arsenic poisoning       misbehaving and getting out of whack?
can occur even though those people for the      That, I don‘t know.
most part are consuming plant based foods.
Lead, mercury, there are some others, they      S.J.: Have you found that since switching
tend to get in food because of our industrial   your diet you have been able to more
world for the most part, the lead and the       patiently seek the emotional and spiritual
mercury. I don‘t know whether plant foods       centers?
can really attenuate those effects very much
or not.                                         T.C.C.: Yes, definitely.

S.J.: So far as chelation goes. That is
binding it and allowing it to be excreted.      S.J.: Without the barrage of irritants to
                                                the nervous system from animal products?
T.C.C.: Right.
                                                T.C.C.: Right. I don‟t know whether it‟s
S.J.: However, in other respects, it can        because of not being exposed to those things
help the body deal with harmful                 or whether it‟s something else I don‟t know,
substances.                                     but I know in my own life and here in many
                                                others as they sort of begin to take on this
T.C.C.: Yes, chelation is positively a factor   lifestyle and eat that kind of food, you
that could help.                                become more aware of things that you
                                                should have been aware of before and
weren‟t. I think it‟s likely to lead to a more     remarkable. You have to sort of wonder,
contented feeling, spiritual feeling, higher       especially in those settings because they
level of consciousness, especially on matters      were mostly African American or Hispanic,
concerning violence against other people. I        and those folks are very sensitive to dairy.
have become very much more sensitive to            They have a very high lactose intolerance
the fact that eating animal based foods has a      index which suggests they‟re probably going
lot of consequences and those consequences         to be sensitive to a lot of problems with
for the most part are having to do with the        dairy. Take them off of dairy, and we might
way some people mistreat other people and          empty half our prisons. Just stop and think
the way they mistreat animals, the way they        about it, all the consequences. When you
mistreat the environment. I call that just         start thinking about these kinds of things,
global violence. Why do we do that? Why            it‟s bound to increase one‟s awareness of
do we do the things that are often times not       what is going on, seems to me.
in our best interest and violate the rights of
others or abuse? Whether it‟s human                S.J.: Beyond our physical health, so
beings, or whether it‟s abuse in the               many problems and tragedies might well
environment, it‟s all the same. So I see           have been caused by our so called affluent
where just choosing the right kinds of foods,      diet.
we would be decreasing violence: end of
story, full stop. It‟s just the way it is.         T.C.C.: Right, we rape the earth, take the
                                                   resources at an unprecedented rate in order
S.J.: That actually has been found in              to eat the food to make us ill, and then we
prison studies.                                    make drugs that command still more costs.

T.C.C.: Yes, it has. It‟s very interesting, that   S.J.: An enriched lifestyle, and an
is right. Whether that increased awareness         impoverished humanity.
and consciousness, I‟m not sure. I guess
you get it from eating the right kind of food,     T.C.C.: Yes, this issue is a very important
but what is the reaction there? Is it because      issue, a very big issue. It has far reaching
we‟re then avoiding animal foods? You              consequences when we start thinking about
know, that may in fact cause those kinds of        what food can do for our very existence.
alleged responses that we don‟t want to            This is the kind of discussion I wish we
have. I mean the fight or flight syndrome          could have with young children. It can
maybe even. Yes, there are some very good          occur. Young children should know. They
studies showing that people tend to be more        seem to have more open minds and I have
contented and less violent when we do that.        often wondered along these lines. It‘s just
Dr. Antonia Demas was showing this in a            curious, in fact, why is it that we don‘t want
remarkable way in a couple of settings, one        children to ever go to a butchery, yet we‘re
in Miami, Florida, and the other in Oakland,       going to let him eat the products of a
California, where she was working with             butchery. Why do we do that? If you were
troubled youth who were incarcerated. She          to go into the public school system and say I
changed their diets and, wow, what kind of         would volunteer my services, I would like to
changes she was seeing. It was just                take your class over to the local slaughter
house. You would get no place. But yet          reality, we‟re setting them up for future
they‘re going to sit there and eat their        disease or maybe even present
hamburgers, and a lot of kids don‘t even        autoimmune response.
know where the hamburgers come from, but
you take those kids over to that slaughter      T.C.C.: That is right and why do they think
house, it would be a life changing              that? They think that because all they have
experience for them, a lot of them. They        to do is walk over to the walls of their
wouldn‘t eat it, and so just show them a film   classroom and if there is anything hanging
of the abuse of their pets.                     there that has something to do with health,
                                                it‘s what are they being told. They‘re being
S.J.: Or even not abuse but how it              told to drink that 3rd glass of milk instead of
actually works in the ideal way with the        2 glasses. They‘re being told to be sure and
animals stunned. It‟s a pretty brutal           get enough protein. You know, very simple
process.                                        message like that. Who is producing that?
                                                It‘s the industry producing it. They‘re
T.C.C.:      Yes, that would change things      cultivating in the children a new market for
around.                                         life. So their companies knew this very well
                                                when they were starting to market to the
                                                kids and increased the amount of nicotine in
S.J.: People don‟t like to think of their       the cigarette for example, get them addicted.
food being killed and skinned,
dismembered, intestines splattered
around.                                         S.J.: Children have been a target of the
                                                dairy industry for a long time, for
T.C.C.: I think, most children would find       decades.
that really abhorrent, and they don‘t need to
be told that it‘s abhorrent; they will decide   T.C.C.: Yes and that is a crime. That is
that on their own. You don‘t need to say        literally a serious crime and they should be
anything, just let them see and say that is     held accountable for it. Originally, we
where your hamburger comes from. This is        started the discussion talking about ‗Does it
where your breast of chicken comes from, a      increase our awareness of such‘, and I am
chicken that can‘t even turn around in a        saying things now that I wouldn‘t have said
cage. I mean, these kinds of things. That is    20 or 30 years ago. So why am I saying it
just human nature, and so we deny. We‘re        now? I criticize myself or critique myself I
denying young people their humanity by not      should say. Well, why did I do that, I just
telling them what is going on. We‘re really     have become aware. I don‘t know why I
denying them their humanity and I think it‘s    became aware. I should have always been
disgusting.                                     aware, but I am more aware now.

S.J.: All because we think that they have
to get the flesh and the white stuff into
them to lead an optimal life, whereas in
S.J.: Of the effects on human health as         little bit more equitable distribution of
well.                                           resources and wealth and opportunity. That
                                                is also possible. So that instead of them
T.C.C.: Yes.                                    having to depend on the food that has to be
                                                handed out to them, they could be learning
T.C.C.: I mean, I come from a background        how to do some of these things themselves.
of hunting, trapping and slaughtering           I know, my view on that is a little bit
animals, milking cows, I did all that. So, I    simplistic in an international setting because
know what that world is like.                   I have worked a lot in an international
                                                settings, and I know there are areas of the
S.J.: Well hopefully, the results of your       world where there are people living and they
research will become better known and           can‘t go out an make a garden in a rock pile
reduce the motivation to continue               as much as they might want. In a situation
promoting the animal industry.                  like that, you can study the question a little
                                                bit and maybe relocate them in areas where
T.C.C.: Right.                                  they can do that. There are ways. We just
                                                don‘t think along those lines. We just don‘t.
S.J.: Genetic engineering is being used         To give an illustration, when I was working
to increase the content of beta carotene in     in the Philippines with malnourished
rice, yet a possible unintended                 children, we had a Food for Peace Program
consequence is the creation of allergenic       which primarily accounted for sending in
proteins. Do you think genetic                  dried milk powder for these children
engineering should be used to increase the      because they needed dairy. But they didn‘t
functionality of foods?                         say the reason we‘re sending that because
                                                this is a byproduct of our subsidy program.
T.C.C.: No, not at all. I know that there are   And why do we have a subsidy program?
what appear to be some very powerful            Because it would make good politics. It
arguments for going down that route of          would produce all this extra milk. We dried
genetic engineering of foods and creating       it down and sent it abroad. We wanted to
foods that have higher nutrient content and     help feed the world, feed the kids, take care
particularly in the 3rd world, where            of them. Forget it, nonsense.
increasing the percentage yield of foods is
needed in order to feed more kids. That‘s a
pretty powerful argument. You know that is      S.J.: Seems like with the benefits of a
being used to support that, but there is        diet consisting of a large variety of whole
another way of doing that besides having        unrefined plant based foods and possibly
genetic engineering or genetically              supplements of vitamin B12, vitamin D,
engineered foods and running the real risk of   DHA, maybe minerals as called for, as
unintended consequences. All the                well as exercising, emotional and spiritual
alternative ideas really have to do with is     practices, we could be healthy and
just simply going into these societies and      vigorous well into old age and avoid or
asking questions about how you could get a      possibly heal the degenerative diseases
                                                such as cancer, diabetes, heart disease,
impotence, constipation and many others          science and the public, of course, they‘re
that Americans eventually suffer. Have I         led to believe that three glasses milk a day is
got that summary about right?                    better than two glasses, builds strong bones
                                                 and teeth. I mean I have heard that since I
T.C.C.:        Yes you do. The only              was a kid. Being raised on a dairy farm we
qualification, you named some outcomes           were doing great things. We were
that are obviously considered diseases and       producing health food you see because that
problems or at least we think they‘re            is what everybody believed, but I think, of
diseases and problems. In some cases, they       course, you are referring to the fact that
only became diseases because somebody            those recommendations to consume three
decided to call them diseases. The               instead of two are based on policy
pharmaceutical industry decided to call them     committees that have been corrupted by the
diseases and the medical committee went          industry itself. Those kinds of people get in
along with it and you would get a name for a     there and they develop these kinds of
disease, now you got a new disease.              recommendations.
Everybody becomes aware of it. Now there
is an epidemic, now we need drugs and the        S.J.: Although correlation does not show
natural order of things is that we don‘t have    causation, with the results of population
to. I‘m thinking like you said impotence.        studies and with biological plausibility
That was coined by a pharmaceutical              such as turning cancer on and off,
industry marketing group and then once you       increased levels of the hormone estrogen
opened up that market, you got a problem         as well as negative calcium balance with
and you‘ve got a market, instead of thinking     animal products, is all that research
it was the natural order of things. I don‘t      regarding the harmful effects as about as
think it‘s quite the natural order of things     close to proof in biology as is possible to
because people are eating the wrong food.        come short of knowledge of the detailed
We don‘t go down the road even asking            metabolic pathways, some of that is
‗What effect does this bad food have on          coming out now, and more of the formal
creating that problem?‘, if you will. We         clinical studies that have been done? Who
don‘t go down that road. Rather, we go           paid for the studies of the metabolic
down the road, ‗Let‘s call it a disease, let‘s   pathways and the clinical studies?
give it a name‘ and ‗Now let‘s find
something to give to people a billion dollar     T.C.C.: Well, the clinical studies certainly
drug‘. It‘s all messed up.                       were mostly paid for by the pharmaceutical
                                                 industry. The whole concept of doing
S.J.: Why do many nutritionists and              clinical trials which everybody thinks is the
doctors advise drinking milk? Do they            gold standard, which I do not accept, that
know about the problems with dairy and           concept was built around the idea that you
other animal products?                           have to test single things to see what they
                                                 do, keeping everything else under control.
T.C.C.: Mostly not. A lot of well meaning        Of course, it‘s never said that everything
good people in the practice of medicine and      that is being kept under control also includes

all the factors that are the more important          somewhat irrelevant, but formal clinical
factors.                                             studies of people consuming the whole
Not everything can be kept under control.            plant based diet.
So, you stick in one chemical and see what
you can do. That is a clinical trial usually         T.C.C.: Yes, the most famous are Dr.
used for the development of drugs of course          Esselstyn‘s in my view. Reversing
and things like this. Pharmaceutical industry        advanced heart disease. Obviously, Dr.
pays for most of that, pure and simple. The          Dean Ornish also did this too but his studies
government pays for some of that. National           were shorter. Esselstyn‘s now have gone on
Institute of Health will put up some funding         for more than 20 years and it‘s just
to help that get under way, but they in turn         remarkable. I don‘t know anything in the
are greatly influenced by the pharmaceutical         drug field.
industry as well. If you go back to your first
statement, if you look at all the biological
evidence that has to do with knowledgeable           S.J.: How about shrinking tumors?
plausibility, evidence having to do with
comparison over a broad range, the                   T.C.C.: That is a little more problematic
relationship between our diet and lifestyle,         because nobody wants to look at and quite
disease, and then you put all this together          frankly, there is really, really serious bias
and by that, in my view at least, the way I          against doing those kinds of studies. I had
sort of want to do that is I want to look at         an experience and I can tell you this: on one
some of the basic biochemistry and see if I          occasion when I was lecturing at the McGill
feel it‘s right, and then I want to see if that is   University Medical Center and at that time it
consistent with a bigger picture. I also want        was a university-wide lecture, essentially,
to ask questions too, ‗Is this consistent with,      and there were about 800 people in the
is it practical in a sense?‘, and maybe in           audience, and this is maybe at least ten
some cases ‗Is it economical, feasible?‘.            maybe more than that maybe 15 years ago,
You have a variety of different kinds of             when I was simply just offering the idea that
studies. You have studies that determine             diet was not only important in terms of
biological plausibility. You have studies            preventing cancer in my view but what
that look at just general associations. It‘s         about the possibility of using it in a broader
putting it all together to see if you have run       sense for maybe reversing advanced cancer
across a fundamental truth. So it‘s a much           and no one said anything until after the
more holistic approach.                              lecture was over. I went to dinner with the
                                                     head of surgery, head of chemotherapy and
                                                     the head of radiation therapy, those three
S.J.: How about reversal of even severe              gentlemen took me to dinner, and of course,
diseases, that is, using plant based foods           they brought the topic up. ‗What did you
to support the body‟s own healing                    mean by saying that?‘ Well, if you look at
processes for example to shrink tumors?              the biology, the theory of it, it seems to me
Has any formal clinical evidence been                to be a reasonable idea to test. I would like
found? We mentioned formal clinical                  to see it done, but nobody is doing this. If a
studies using only isolated cases as being
person gets cancer, put them on a dietary         osteoporosis among other degenerative
regimen for example, and the guy on my left       disorders?
who was the surgeon said, ‗You will not get
any of my patients. I know what I can do.         T.C.C.: True. What‘s proof? Proof is the
That‘s it. You just simply will not. I know       accumulation of evidence, weight of
what I can do. You can‘t just take patients       evidence. That is the way I like to look at it.
like that and try something really strange‘ or    If you look at all the evidence on animal
whatever word he used. He said something          food versus plant food just to look at that
that irritated the guy on the right who was       comparison. I find the weight of the
the chemotherapy guy. He said ‗I can do           evidence against animal foods far, far in
this, surgery can do this and this and this‘.     excess of the weight against plant food, from
The guy on the right suddenly heard him say       many, many different perspectives. You can
something he didn‘t really care for and said      call that proof or not. I don‘t know, but I
‗no, no you can‘t. I‘ll tell you right now this   think it really is more the weight of the
chemotherapy will work better than what           evidence. I would, in these days, at least,
you just said‘, and the two of them started       become, I think, a little more conscious of
arguing with each other and one of them           something else that I hadn‘t paid much
said something to annoy the guy sitting on        attention to before and that is processed
the opposite side, the one involved in            foods. Start thinking about processed foods.
radiation therapy. He jumped in and said          Process foods are something less than the
‗No, neither one of those work, it‘s radiation    whole plant foods. They might all be plant
therapy‘. The first thing, it was really          based, but if they‘re less than whole and
amusing. Those three guys are there arguing       they only contain white flour and sugar, oil
about what was the best treatment for a           stuff like that and some salt thrown in and
couple different cancers amongst those three      make a biscuit out of it, I am concerned
different ways, but they all agreed to one        about that. So, I am going to take a lot of
thing. Forget diet. That is not the way.          processed food and put them in the same
                                                  basket with animal foods and say we have a
                                                  mixture here of stuff that is not in our best
S.J.: Protecting their own turf. Not              interest. The health basket is the one with
considering a completely different playing        whole plant based foods.

T.C.C.: That‘s right and I have seen this         S.J.: Has there been any evidence
played out so many times.                         generated against that diet?

                                                  T.C.C.: No, not as far as I am concerned.
S.J.: And to your way of thinking, has it         Not any convincing evidence. There are
been proven as close as you can prove in          organizations that will argue this
biological terms or at least shown to your        vehemently that animal foods offer a lot.
complete satisfaction that animal based           Obviously, the dairy industry is looking out
foods play a major role in causing or             for the dairy, the meat industry looks out for
promoting cancer, heart disease,
themselves, the egg board looks out for           those circumstances but he didn‘t record
eggs, and there are other organizations that      anything on that point. He did give some
are strange and we don‘t know where they          evidence on caries. He did all this and so he
get the money from that would make that           was arguing that we should go back to the
argument such as an organization called the       indigenous diet. He said that fish was
Weston A. Price Foundation in Washington.         important and the fishing communities. In
They‘re quite vigorous. They have quite a         some cases, he inferred that animal foods
lot of money and those people are out there       might be important but he also
using Weston A. Price‘s work to argue in          acknowledged that these people, in a lot of
favor of consuming livestock. I have gotten       cases were living on plant based diets. This
to know Weston A. Price‘s work and they‘re        foundation in Washington that now exists
distorting it.                                    populated by nonscientists giving these
                                                  hostile reactions against things that I say or
                                                  that Dr. McDougall says or Dr. Esselstyn
S.J.: How are they distorting it?                 says, they‘re really going out there to do
                                                  everything they can to try to discredit us on
T.C.C.: Weston Price was a dentist, a dental      any grounds. They‘re extremely hostile,
surgeon who mostly was working in the             rude, and I know they get funding from the
10‘s, 20‘s and 30‘s and he was going around       agriculture industry, the livestock based
the world surveying indigenous peoples            agriculture industry. So that is the caveat of
when he could find them who had not yet           it, I‘d say. There are people. I mean they
been touched by commercialism. He found           really believe, I think, they act like they
about 14 such groups, one case living in the      believe that what we‘re saying is wrong.
Alps in Switzerland, another group in the         One of their people has written something to
Hebrides of Scotland, Polynesian islands,         say that we should consume as much
mountains of Peru, in Africa, like the            cholesterol as we can, and it turns out it he
Maasai. He was looking at all these               happens to be a 24-year-old young guy with
different people and what he measured was         no training in nutrition. He writes well, and
their dental caries, he was a dentist, and        he makes these outrageous statements like
what he found was that these groups had not       this.
yet been touched by the commercial western
world and they really had good teeth. That
is not surprising. He also talked about their     S.J.: Well, he‟s like a debater who is
dental arches. They had fuller faces, they        trained to argue one side or the other and
looked healthy, he was impressed with their       come up with as many points in favor of
health and as soon as they got access to a        one side and as many points against the
port or someplace where there was food            other side. It‟s just a debating…
being brought in, all of a sudden deficiencies
shot up. Then he was making this                  T.C.C.: Ploy.
generalization that that is bad health, and
probably I am sure it was, and he was sort
of, to some extent inferring a little bit about   S.J.: Exercise. An exercise like a tennis
other diseases also beginning to occur in         player practicing his tennis. The man is
just debating, practicing his debating           them where drug reps have been available,
expertise whether or not he believes in          showing their wares, for drug companies it‘s
what he‟s saying.                                a means of advertising their wares, and I just
                                                 take offense to that. I think the groups are
T.C.C.: Right, that is true. He has no           very good in terms of patients sharing their
training in the field. He never did any          feelings and comforting themselves. That is
research in the field, never has published a     obviously a very important activity, but
paper that was peer reviewed and yet, he         they‘re a vulnerable group. They‘re
somehow, he will put his things around on        extremely vulnerable, and so, I just find
the internet, or maybe distribute papers at      drug companies taking advantage of that,
meetings that I may at or presenting.            and I would rather that they also spend some
                                                 time trying to learn some of the information
                                                 that they tend not to hear.
S.J.: Unfortunately, he‟s not putting on a
high school debate, he has a nationwide          S.J.: It may be that such groups avoid
audience in a life-critical subject.             talk of means of prevention and
                                                 supporting healing since many victims
                                                 blame themselves. As difficult as it is to
                                                 look forward rather than back under
Tape 7 (Interview 4)                             such a grievous challenge, the people
                                                 could think of themselves not as victims
                                                 but as proactive self healers retaking
S.J.: Should local breast cancer alliances       control of their lives from disease by
and prostate cancer institutions be              improving diet to support healing.
discussing the possibility of providing
information to Americans everywhere on           T.C.C.: I think you have just said it very
how a plant based diet of whole unrefined        well, Sylvester. That is excellent. I couldn‘t
foods may help the body become more              say it really any better. I think that we often
effective against cancer?                        hear about, or at least I get criticized some
                                                 times for being a little bit too candid in some
T.C.C.: Definitely. I think these                of my views because they say, my critics
organizations are grassroots in nature and       say, it blames the victim, and I don‘t mean
are really reaching a lot of people, and I       to blame the victim. That is not my point
think they have a responsibility to share with   and I know it‘s a sensitive matter for those
the people as much as they can regarding         who already have the disease, but I also
this information. It has been my experience      think that it‘s probably more refreshing too
that when I have spoken to these groups, not     for everyone to be a little bit more honest,
many, but when I have spoken to them, I          where they have been and where they hope
find that they‘re very much in the medical       to go because only by knowing where they
mind set and drug companies like them,           are, perhaps what they have done, can they
drug companies often times will help these       more forward in a really honest way. Every
groups. I have spoken a couple of times at       time I think of that sort of different kind of
                                                 philosophy, I think of my mother, for
example, who obviously was a farm wife                 progress it forward. There are the foods
and we ate the food that she knew best at the          that will tend to inhibit it perhaps even
time. Well, that was the kind of food that             reverse it, and I think this is true all the way
we now know is not exactly the best. So,               along the line even after it‘s diagnosed, even
when I started talking to her about this a few         after the submission that really is staring to
years ago, at first, she felt a little bit guilty, I   occur. Now, it‘s true that if we expect to see
think, and I felt like maybe I shouldn‘t be            reversal at that point after diagnosis, I
telling her about all these things, but                suspect that we‘re going to have to be a little
eventually, she came around and with just a            more aggressive in what is going to be done
healthy attitude to be honest. We all operate          at that time and be really strict about diet,
in our own best interests with the best                for example and even maybe use some other
information that we have at the time and so,           lifestyle procedures to get things turned
I think the idea of feeling like victim is not         around. I am thinking of something that is
really quite fair. People shouldn‘t feel to be         really off the mark as far as traditional
the victim.                                            medicine is concerned and that is the water-
                                                       only fast. I have seen that personally work
S.J.: Some tumors may already be                       on people with cancer, and cancer-like
causing pain or blockages at the time of               conditions. It‘s very quite remarkable.
diagnosis, and so require prompt action                When we give the body a chance to rest, so
from a conventional medical standpoint.                to speak, either rest from the act of digestion
Could plant based diet or dietary means                and absorption and then return to a really
be used to complement such                             good plant based diet, really remarkable
interventions?                                         things happen. Not just with cancer but with
                                                       all kinds of diseases. So, I think it‘s
T.C.C.: I think so. I mean we do have                  important to at least consider the possibility
evidence now, not enough, but we do have               of using diet and lifestyle in an aggressive
evidence that a plant based diet, that the             way for those people who already have been
kind of plant based diet that tends to prevent         diagnosed; the same kind diet that what
disease from progression on is the same kind           would be used to keep them from getting
of diet that seems to be able to reverse               there in the first place.
disease at later stages. I mean this is most
dramatic in the case of heart disease and              S.J.: So enough evidence has been
diabetes, of course, but we also have some             gathered that the doctors should be
evidence in the case of cancer too. The                discussing a diet and lifestyle based
development of disease is a really kind of             approach complimentary to or possibly
interesting phenomenon, and I don‘t think is           even before conventional treatments?
fully understood. I mean, development of
these serious diseases like cancer and heart           T.C.C.: Yes, we have enough evidence.
disease and some of these so called chronic            Incidentally, I have thought a lot about this
degenerative diseases is a long process that           and the fact that just during the last couple
goes on for many, many years, and it goes              of weeks, two or three weeks, I have visited
on slowly perhaps most of the time and we              with some clinics where there is a consensus
know that there are foods that will tend to            amongst those of us who know the
information the way we do. There is a             try it. It only turns out to be a self serving
consensus amongst us that the only way that       prophecy. The doctor will say to the patient,
we believe that this information is really        oh, you ought to do this, you, ought to do
going to take a foot hold in our society is if    that, but if the doctor himself or herself are
it fits within the economic system. Namely,       not doing it themselves, they‘re not going to
I am talking about the fact that physicians       be a particularly good advocate for that kind
who are the primary care givers under the         of change. So that is a very simple notion.
present system and perhaps should be, of          These are not the people to talk to patients
course, under the future system, they have        about this. I mean, the doctors have got to:
got to be able to be paid adequately, and just    a) know the information, b) be convinced
simply telling people to eat their vegetables     that it‘s of value, and c) have got to be able
and fruit‘s not exactly going to do it. That is   to make some money when they‘re doing it.
very clear and so procedures have to be           That is the practical substance of what needs
developed where physicians can make a             to happen.
reasonable and even a substantial income by
doing this, and there is, in fact, now
emerging such procedures, such models. I          S.J.: The most successful doctors in
am thinking particularly of Dr. John              building substantial practices may be
McDougall of the west coast who is a very         those who do incorporate dietary and
clever guy. He has been in the business for       lifestyle improvements.
a long time and he has come up with a
model now that he‘s using and it can earn         T.C.C.: Yes, I am actually getting to know
for him plenty of money, a lot of money and       such people like that who are really doing
still at the same time practice what he knows     well. I met a very bright young doctor,
best to do. Patients get well. The physician      reasonably young doctor, in Kansas who
makes money. Patients go off of drugs,            started to practice so called lifestyle
quite frankly, in many cases. In other            medicine where he basically approaches his
words, the practice of medicine has to fit        patients when he first gets his patients, and
within the economic system to really make it      he was good internist with a good
work. Now, I think we‘re entering some            reputation. He basically informed them
ways by which that can be done.                   when they came to visit with them that he
                                                  wanted to send them out of the office
S.J.: In the past, such ideas were                without a prescription. He wanted them to
rejected out of hand because the feeling          try the diet lifestyle thing, and he was
was that the majority of Americans, the           convinced himself, that was 9/10 of the
vast majority, would not change their             battle. So, he was very persistent. He told
diets regardless of the health benefits to        them what they had to do and it turned out
be accomplished.                                  about half of them really did listen and
T.C.C.: Well, that goes to the question           another quarter at least tried. There was the
concerning who is giving the information to       quarter who didn‘t care and didn‘t want to
these people who refuse to make changes. If       do it that way. But in any case a half is a lot
the doctor doesn‘t really believe in this, he‘s   and maybe three fourths, and he had so
the last person to try to convince patients to    much success with this approach so far and
has actually seen recovery from these            insisting that things should be changed is
sometimes very serious illness that all of a     not the easiest thing to do. I know that from
sudden doctors elsewhere in the hospital in      some technologies that have been presented
that town were referring their patients to       to them by which they can actually reduce
him, and then he couldn‘t take care of all       cost and they‘re reluctant to do so because
those patients, and more recently he has         they figure that the cost of change is too
taken on three more physicians in his            much. But on the other hand, Dr. Dean
practice. Now, there are four physicians         Ornish has been successful in getting quite a
doing the same thing and they‘re just            number of insurance companies to buy into
absolutely overwhelmed with patient              his procedure and to pay for that procedure.
referrals. It works, and now he has written a
book about this. His name is Dr. Neal
Nedley. I think it‘s fair enough to give out     S.J.: Lower fat.
his name, and I think that model can be a
model for the future but in that particular      T.C.C.: Yes, if they will try that as a means
case, it was clear that Dr. Nedley believed in   of disease management, maybe reversal.
what he was doing and then in turn               Insurance companies are in fact paying for
demonstrated for the patient‘s what they         that kind of service to some extent and this
could achieve if they just listened to him.      seems to be growing, the idea seems to be
It‘s going to have to be the wave of the         growing. So it‘s possible, and I think
future. We‘re going to have to think in these    insurance companies can certainly take a
possibilities.                                   lead in this area. They‘re the ones standing
                                                 to gain financially in the long run.

S.J.: Since his approaches can help
ameliorate or reverse a vast range of            S.J.: A very small study could show
disorders, it‟s amazing that the insurance       substantial reductions in pain and
companies and HMOs haven‟t picked up             outflows if health challenges improved
more on it.                                      and be applicable very broadly for much
                                                 greater savings and a significant
T.C.C.: It‘s amazing. It‘s frustrating, quite    reduction in human misery. It would be
frankly, knowing that that doesn‘t work that     so doable for those companies to conduct
way. And from my limited experience in           such a small study.
that category of experience, I am learning
that big insurance companies are sort of         T.C.C.: Right.
locked in place with what they do. It‘s an
enormously large industry doing things the
way they have always done things and you         S.J.: And it wouldn‟t have to last so long
are also invested in the system to maintain      as a complete clinical trial of a drug for
the status quo because they‘re making a lot      example. Just long enough to
of money and have a ‗if it doesn‘t need          demonstrate cash savings.
fixing why fix‘ kind of attitude and
furthermore to really get in there and start
T.C.C.: Well, I know of two examples: One        companies took the approach that you
Dr. McDougall conducted with the Blue            have been talking about, a dietary
Cross Blue Shield company in one of the big      lifestyle approach to really promote
Midwestern states where over a six month         health improvements among employees,
period using this procedure, he was able to      that could help them become more
show us a 19% savings in medical care            competitive.
costs. That is a lot: a 19% savings with a
reasonably modest approach. In other             T.C.C.: Oh, absolutely. I mean it‘s clearer
words, it was highly significant. Then           now that companies when they‘re
another study done in North Carolina with        experiencing these escalating costs in
some of my own colleagues where they             medical care have to do something, and I
were in a 30 day period got a 14% medical        know of one case with a big company where
care savings by doing something like this,       they had to impose all of a sudden a $2,000
and something really quite modest                up front payment on the part of each
especially the second one. If it were done       employee at the beginning of the year. The
using some of the more interesting and           employee had to take on the first $2000 in
perhaps more aggressive procedures with          medical care costs. It caused an enormous
lifestyle change, the savings could even be      uproar between the employees and the
greater especially over longer periods of        company, and so, some of these companies,
time. It could be huge. I think of companies     when they‘re experiencing these kinds of
like General Motors which has a six billion      costs, and of course, they‘re interested in
dollar health care cost, bill, or Southwestern   protecting their bottom line obviously, so
Bell for example which has about three           what are they going to do? In some cases
billion dollar. I am familiar with the second    they may cut the number of jobs and then
one especially. They have about a three          they lay off people in order to accommodate
billion dollar medical care cost. The            this, or they send jobs overseas where often
company cannot afford to keep going along        times they don‘t pay any medical care costs
this tract because these costs are escalating    at all, and so all of a sudden, our country
faster than anything else going on in their      suddenly begins to suffer, and of course, the
business and so they‘re reaching a crisis        people working in these companies in these
stage, they need to do something. Some of        communities where this occurs they know
these companies are now beginning to             the price and much of this is due to the fact
understand this.                                 that medical care costs are going through the
                                                 roof of these companies, and even in the
                                                 public sector with municipal budgets, public
S.J.: In fact, it makes the U.S. less            school budgets things like that. Public
competitive because other countries do           schools are particularly vulnerable because
not have the kind of a health care system        they‘re having to pay the medical care costs
that we do that tends to be a bottomless         of all their existing staff as well as retired
pit for money for many reasons and               staff, as other companies do too, and those
therefore, the costs to overseas companies       costs are escalating rapidly. When schools
for health care are substantially lower          have to take on that burden and don‘t get
than U.S. companies. So if U.S.
compensation from the state or the federal       are so many examples of these kinds of
government to cover those increasing costs,      improvements in health that can be
they have to cut programs. Either that or        accomplished for all manners of diseases in
they have to raise local taxes, and this is      a fairly short period of time through the use
going on all over the country. School            of diet and at the same time that this
budgets seem to be escalating very rapidly,      improvement is going on and they‘re
largely because of medical care costs and so     making their dietary change, they‘re
their only choice is to raise taxes and that     dropping their meds. In other words, they‘re
doesn‘t set well with the public, so it‘s a      giving up their drugs in surprising amounts,
very serious problem. I think if anything is     and it happens fairly quickly. So, all of a
going to cause change as far as these ideas      sudden it translates into a cause. People
are concerned, it may come because of these      paying a few thousand dollars a year for
economic considerations, the financial           their drugs and more and then learning, in
constraints that are placed on agencies,         fact, that they don‘t have to take these drugs
institutions and companies simply because        anymore. This is for things like
they can‘t afford these costs. So what you       hypertension, diabetes.
suggested before, finding ways linking this
health information for employees is
important to think about. Companies can          S.J.: They don‟t have to suffer the side
organize these demo projects to enroll their     effects any longer.
employees in these programs so that the
individuals can see for themselves what kind     T.C.C.: They don‘t have to suffer the side
of benefit they can get, that would be a great   effects. Again, just in the last couple weeks,
thing. At the same time, the company             I had an opportunity to be at three of these
begins to learn how much savings and             different kinds of programs in places and
money they can make by seeing how well           talking to the people who were going
people can get and not consume all those         through the program and, of course,
dollars, and so, I think that linkage between    presenting to those programs myself what
a concern for the economic health of the         the information is. I wish the whole country
company and the personal health of the           could see what I have seen because it really
individual is an important linkage that needs    is truly amazing.
to be considered.
                                                 S.J.: What are the names of some of
S.J.: Again, the study doesn‟t have to be        programs again?
as long as a clinical trial for
pharmaceuticals, it can be very short just       T.C.C.: One of them is Dr. McDougall‘s
long enough to demonstrate cash savings.         program. It‘s called the McDougall
                                                 Program in Santa Rosa, California for the
T.C.C.: That is right. We‘re just talking        most part. It‘s a 10-day program. He brings
maybe a matter of a month or two or three        them in, they go through the program. It‘s
and we have already known from other             really a very active fun kind of a program in
kinds of studies that that kind of savings       a way. He offers food; he gives out
really is a reasonable thing to expect. There    demonstrations of how to prepare food. He
takes them shopping. He tells them all            T.C.C.:      Absolutely staggering. She
about the information. A second one is the        obviously got very enthused about our book,
one I just mentioned before, run by the           and she now promoting the book all over
Adventist‘s Church, The Coronary Health           Texas because she just couldn‘t believe she
Improvement Project. Dr. Hans Diehl is the        never heard of this before, and John
one who has headed that up and that has           McDougall does this routinely with
now been established in, it seems, if I know      rheumatoid arthritis patients with a
my numbers right, in something like 300           somewhat less aggressive approach just
towns and communities around the United           simply changing their diet and not doing the
States. The third one is really interesting;      fast. These things work, they really work.
it‘s the most aggressive one. It‘s one which
involves bringing people in with problems
for the most part and put them on a water         S.J.: Are you familiar with the
only fast for some period of time for             Hippocrates Health Institute in Florida?
upwards to maybe two, three, four weeks or
longer depending on how serious the               T.C.C.: Yes, I have spoken to them, in fact, I
condition is, and then bringing them back         was there recently with Dr. Brian Clement
gradually onto a plant based diet, and the        who has worked with Ann Wigmore in
results that they get there are staggering, but   Boston originally when it started but they
easily it‘s the one procedure that would be       have moved their main facility there. They
the hardest to sell. People are not wont to       tend to focus primarily on raw plant foods,
believe that. In fact, these people who come      and I think their sort of rule of thumb is to
there resolve their problems and go back to       make at least 85% of the diet with raw
their doctors and their doctors immediately       foods. They talk a lot about food combining
say oh every once in a while we see a             as well. So they have some wrinkles in their
remission but can‘t have anything to do with      program and it‘s somewhat different from
that fasting you were doing. That is just the     some of the others and they use cereal grass
typical reaction and it‘s something you just      juices, barley juice, water grass, wheat grass
have to live with. But people come in with        and things like this. They treat a lot of
really, really serious problems and just          people coming in there with cancer, and I
resolve them in no time. I saw one woman          don‘t know how much success they have
in that case. She came in. She could hardly       really had. They say they have had a lot of
walk in the door, a really wonderful lady         success, but I need to know their numbers
from Texas, and she had for some years            better, if I could know those, but I don‘t‘
been suffering more aggressive rheumatoid         know, so… They seem to get a lot of results
arthritis and it was really, really painful for   according to what they say.
her. Fourteen days later, she was just
moving about almost as if she could dance         S.J.: They have hundreds of anecdotal
with almost no pain.                              success stories.

                                                  T.C.C.: Yes, that is the thing. A lot of them
S.J.: Marvelous.                                  will tell you about anecdotal stories, and it‘s
                                                  fair enough, we can believe that, but it
would be nicer, a lot easier, to convey the         to digest foods and by breaking it all up
information to other people if we could just        like that releasing the sugars, especially in
sort of write it up so to speak and document        the case of fruits, it makes it more readily
all of this and get it into a proper article, and   available for absorption and not necessarily
that is what I have urged them to do as much        in the best interest so that arguments goes. I
as I can.                                           don‘t know whether there is any bearing in
                                                    that argument or not. I happen to think that
                                                    blending these foods up is probably a pretty
S.J.: I think they‟re working on that as            good idea.
                                                    S.J.: Blending green veggies. Now, this
T.C.C.: There is a whole question                   seems like a good idea doesn‟t it.
concerning follow up and documentation,
that is important.                                  T.C.C.: Yes, given those arguments that we
                                                    were just talking about, releasing everything
                                                    and making it easier to digest and may be
S.J.: Do you have any sense of what the             even to consume.
benefits of fresh or raw plant foods would
be?                                                 S.J.: However, juicing fruits so that you
                                                    have only the juice from the fruit, makes
T.C.C.: Well, one of the big things that is         for a very powerful sugar-laden drink,
claimed is that for one thing, they‘re more         and might impact the body too severely.
replete with nutrients with consideration to
the way foods are prepared these days,              T.C.C.: Yes, that is true, and that is just what
harvested and then processed, they lose             I said about releasing sugars and stuff as
nutritional content, so eating the fresh raw        primary food sucrose. At the same time,
food, of course, and that has been                  other than just juicing which is one concept,
demonstrated quite well, it‘s a better              juicing is straining away all the other stuff.
nutritional composition with the raw food           The better approach, as far as I‘m
than it is with the processed or cooked food.       concerned, is just blending the whole fruit
                                                    and taking the skin and peel and all the rest
S.J.: Especially if it‟s been blended in a          of it.
high power blender to release the finer
nutrients, some of which if it‟s not
blended don‟t get released unless you               S.J.: And, in fairness, Hippocrates does
cook them like in the case of tomatoes and          not emphasize fruit, more like the green
broccoli for example.                               veggies and sprouts.

T.C.C.: I have heard two views of that. Not         T.C.C.: Yes, absolutely. In fact, they tend to
everyone agrees with that. I would have             limit the intake of fruit except for a couple
said what you just said a little while ago but      times a week maybe. It‘s quite restrictive on
I found some people that I have quite a lot of      fruit that‘s true.
respect for who argue that a body was made
S.J.: The rationalization for that is that        do it at a differential rate over and above
the sugars feed the cancers that they‟re          the neighboring cells which may not be
trying to treat, so they limit the sugars.        neoplastic.

T.C.C.: Right, exactly.
                                                  S.J.: Well, they stand out by that glow
                                                  and that is how you tell where the tumor
S.J.: Do you have any sense of any of             is basically. They stand out from the
that theory?                                      other tissues so the other tissues do not
                                                  absorb the sugar as readily as the
T.C.C.: I mean that is what they say, and I       cancerous tissues.
lectured to the group there, the staff and the
patients who were there, and we exchanged         T.C.C.: That is pretty good support.
these ideas and they told me that too, and
who knows, their idea is as good as mine,         S.J.: That is how PET scans work.
I‘m sure and they have had some
experience. Again, from the scientific            T.C.C.: I hadn‘t been familiar with the
empirical point of view, it would be so nice      distinction with the way you just said it, it
if you could actually record some, get some       sounds entirely reasonable.
data on this. I know that some people say
‗what is the point?‘; we don‘t need to            S.J.: So avoid that Coca Cola if you
document everything. Well, yes and no. If         have cancer.
we‘re going to convince other people of
these kinds of approaches, it‘s better it in      T.C.C.:       Yes, but then there are all these
some kind of format, some kind of tabular         kinds of variations in a macrobiotic diet,
form.                                             another group, of course.

                                                  S.J.: Yes, how do you feel about the
S.J.: Certainly, as formal study would be         macrobiotic diet as promoted by the
very valuable.                                    Kushi Institute?

T.C.C.: Of course.                                T.C.C.:        Again, it‘s pretty much along
                                                  the lines that the rest of the folks in this
                                                  business are doing. It‘s plant based for the
S.J.: Positron emission tomography                most part. They do use some fish as you
works by tagging a sugar molecule with a          know. They also like to emphasize the
radioactive atom, then the cancer, the            consumption of fermented vegetables. Food
tumors absorb the sugar molecules                 combining, again, is an important
preferentially, it‟s the food they prefer         consideration from their point of view. I
apparently and start glowing. It seems            mean it‘s kind of a unique taste, their foods,
like that is supporting.                          especially because of the fermented foods.
                                                  You kind of have to get used to it I think but
T.C.C.: It seems like it suggests that but they   I was aware of some data that had been
collected by them at Kushi Institute many        for studies goes to pharmaceutical
years ago, especially in reference to its        studies, for medical trials for the FDA for
ability to retard the progression of cancer. I   pharmaceuticals, not to testing out
saw that information, it was impressive.         whether the macrobiotic diet can lead to
Never got published really, and so I am kind     reversal of disease.
of convinced that there is something there.
Whether the macrobiotic diet is a better way     T.C.C.: That is right. It goes right there.
to go, let‘s say, than the Hippocrates           There are sort of two levels to the public
Institute and whether that is better or worse    level or maybe two or three or four levels, I
than someone like McDougall or such. I           don‘t know, but one is the funding for
mean, they‘re all doing something. They‘re       research. Why don‘t we do more research
all doing something that is fairly major.        and make some comparisons? We need to
                                                 get serious about this that is one level that
                                                 the public gets cheated out of knowing
S.J.: It may be that simply removing the         something about this. The second level is,
insult of the standard diet, the insult to       unfortunately, the attempt by the authorities
the body, removing it allows the body to         of the major medical societies to discredit
heal.                                            those approaches, just simply discredit them
                                                 and not even consider the evidence, and they
T.C.C.: Could be.                                seem to have an agenda. Just simply
                                                 discredit on any grounds. So that is the
S.J.: And move on.                               second level where the public gets cheated
                                                 out of it, too, as well. They don‘t get to
T.C.C.: It could be. I think it‘s time for us    know this kind of information, and those are
in this country to begin to have a dialogue, a   very powerful forces when the professional
public dialogue on these various and sundry      societies take a stand against something they
diets that have been pushed aside by             know so little about.
traditional medicine and traditional science
as being worthless when, in fact, they‘re not.
I want to say that emphatically, they‘re not     S.J.: Tragically, many Americans may
worthless. I see a lot of evidence that these    follow a dairy rich diet or eat other
kinds of procedures have really shown some       animal products in part because they
impressive results, and when I compare           have been told it‟s very healthy for them
those results with, let‘s say the traditional    to eat larger quantities of such products.
way of taking drugs, hands down, in my
mind, it‘s all about food and preventing and     T.C.C.: Right, absolutely. There is an
curing diseases. It‘s not about drugs, and       aggressive industry out there that is going to
that is the stark contrast: that we need to      promote their wares and that is the way it‘s
keep our eye on them all.                        and they‘re going to keep on doing it.

                                                 S.J.: Since the government has long
S.J.: And part of the reason that studies
                                                 been disastrously constrained by industry
haven‟t been performed is that the money
from giving much play to the health              promoting a diet, whatever it may be,
challenges presented by animal based             that we begin to understand what food can
foods, for many years you were about the         do. Really understand it, how it works, and
only one doing the work of informing             I would like think as we have talked before
people about it, but now as we have              that food is comprised of these countless
discussed, many groups from a grassroots         chemicals, many of which we call nutrients
level are informing people the benefits of       that work together in marvelous ways and
really a more traditional diet different         it‘s in that fashion that these foods through
from the experimental conventional diet          their nutritional composition are able to
that we have now. It has really been an          effect health the way they do and to try to
experiment that has been going on for            sort of tease out the effects of this that or
more than a century that seems to have           some other chemical really defeats our
been pretty well proven a disastrous             purpose and causes a lot of confusion for the
experiment. A catastrophic experiment to         most part. So, I don‘t know, I think it‘s a
follow the industry processed foods diet         question of getting to understand this. We
that we have been playing with for so long       really need to get to understand it.
now, but the traditional old-time diet is
what we‟re now calling an alternative
diet.                                            S.J.: What further research would you
                                                 like to see conducted regarding any of the
T.C.C.: I am really beginning to dislike that    issues that we have discussed?
word alternative.
                                                 T.C.C.: Well, as far as research is
                                                 concerned, certainly increasing the funding
S.J.: Yes, it really is the traditional. What    of the National Institutes of Health budget to
would you call it?                               be commensurate with the interest of the
                                                 public and commensurate with what can be
T.C.C.: I don‘t know, the problem, I mean        done right now.
the word ‗alternative‘ in the beginning may
have been a reasonable word, that the
problem is that word ‗alternative‘,              S.J.: The budget for nutrition?
‗alternative‘ this, ‗alternative‘ that, in the
area of health suggests to most people           T.C.C.: For nutrition, exactly. Right now
something really strange, not quite              they admit to 2-4% of the budget for
mainstream, not yet proven, marginal at          nutrition projects, and quite frankly, most of
best, and so, it has taken on its own meaning    that, as we talked before, is really for the
in the recent years just because it‘s used so    testing of individual chemicals called
much to describe things that people don‘t        nutrients and it‘s basically turning nutrients
tend to believe in and so, coming up with a      into drugs if you will. I mean this is only
better word. If I could come up with a better    just a penny on every dollar probably that is
word, probably in another 5 or 10 years,         going into serious nutrition research of the
then I would want to reject that one. I think    kind we‘re talking about. It‘s not even
the main point about all this is rather than     noticeable. So, first put some money there
and let‘s start doing some studies. Now, as     they‘re getting funding. They‘re
to the kind of studies that should be done, I   growing. They‘re getting quite a reputation
think we should start looking at making the     for a serious organization and they can do it.
art of research an art of observation rather    But, nonetheless, no matter how much
than a practice of tinkering with things. In    progress they have made they‘re still kind of
science we always tend to want to tinker        small in a way and I think, in this case, the
with things. We want to look at one thing at    National Institutes of Health will never get
a time and see what it can do this way or       the American Cancer Society and American
that way and that is technology. Science to     Heart Association to take too much of this
me should be more a matter of sitting back      too seriously. They give us watered down
and observing to see what is doing what,        messages but the National Institutes of
seeing how they fare and then also taking an    Health is funded by American taxpayer
approach that‘s more holistic in nature         dollars and the American taxpayer needs to
looking at dietary patterns. Maybe doing the    understand what their tax dollars are going
kind of research that should be done in a       to do, and if they really knew that their
practical way with these groups that we just    money is being spent primarily on
talked about before who are achieving these     developing yet another toxic drug instead of
results. Go in there and organize some          looking at nutrition, if they really knew the
really serious research maybe on the part of    potential of what nutrition can do and what
multiple sites that are doing these things.     diet can do… I think the NIH has a public
Seeing what can be done and comparing           responsibility to put money into this kind of
them all. Who is succeeding and who is not      effort and really get serious about it, but we
and then trying to understand if there are      know that NIH, according the views of
differences, and why are there differences.     many and I am one of them, tends to be the
That is the kind of research that should be     laboratory for the pharmaceutical industry
done.                                           and they‘re getting on the public dole, and
                                                pharmaceutical industries use the taxpayer
S.J.: Would the Physicians Committee            money to do the research that they want to
for Responsible Medicine with its 5,000         see done.
medical doctors among its members,
among its 100,000 members, would that           S.J.: What does becoming vegan mean
group be capable of such studies?               to you personally?

T.C.C.: Sure, I think they have done a good     T.C.C.: Well, I don‘t use the word very
job in many ways over the recent years. Dr.     much. I don‘t really say I‘m vegan. People
Neal Barnard deserves a lot of credit           ask me and I say, well, we‘re very close to
actually for what he has been able to           it, just as close as about anyone but…
achieve, he and his people, and they
certainly are positioned to have the interest   S.J.: It‟s not about purity.
to go forward and sort of help to make that
go and now they‘re getting to be a fairly       T.C.C.: No it‘s not about purity, no,
substantial organization. I think they have     unfortunately, the word again, like the word
about 60 people working on their staff and      alternative has taken a negative meaning or
negative connotation for too many people.
So, I just like to talk about a plant based      T.C.C.: Yes, I run almost every day and in
diet, and actually, I was an advisor at NIH      the summer time I run between 4,6 or 7
reviewing grants in one of these so called       miles a day, wintertime just about the same.
study sections some years ago, and I know
in my own mind I am the one who came up          S.J.: What is your age?
with the word plant based diet as opposed to
using the V words and others have                T.C.C.: I‘ll be 72 in another three months.
acknowledged that, and I know at NIH the
people on these committees said that I was       S.J.: Fantastic. What is your method of
the one who first came up with that              avoiding knee injuries and shin splints
phraseology for whatever that is worth, but I    due to running?
think talking about things in a plant based
nature instead of a vegan nature to me           T.C.C.: I think that has been over
makes more sense. Then furthermore               emphasized, and it could be the people who
talking about, I am sure there are better        get the knee injuries and the shin splints,
words than a plant based diet maybe, but we      that these people may be getting those things
maybe can think about that, but the              because they‘re eating the wrong diet to start
important point is that we should talk about     with and their bodies are not able to
it in the context of it being really very good   withstand the pummeling that occurs when
nutrition, healthy. It should be healthy kind    you are doing this kind of thing. I know for
of concept.                                      myself, not only have I lost a lot of weight,
                                                 keeping weight down by running which
                                                 makes it easier on my joints, but at the same
S.J.: If you had gone into a different field     time occasionally when one starts to get
and continued the diet you grew up with,         older you always get a little sore here or
what do you speculate your health would          there or muscle or bone or something like
be like now?                                     that. I find that if I get a sore in my knee or
                                                 calf or whatever is hurting a bit, I just run
T.C.C.: I am not sure I would be here to talk    through it. That is the time for me to go out
to you about it for one thing. I have already    and really run. The interesting thing is that a
outlived my father and his brother. My wife      good friend of mine, Ruth Heidrick who has
has outlived her mother by about 14 years.       run, she‘s about the same age as I am. She
We have had cancer in my wife‘s family.          has run something like 70 marathons. She
Heart disease in my family especially my         still runs marathons. She‘s considered one
father‘s side and I just don‘t think that I      of the greatest women‘s athletes in the world
would be as healthy as I am now. I am quite      today. I have had her in my class, a very
sure of that, although I was at the farm and I   wonderful woman. I heard her, she said the
was always outdoors and got some benefit         same thing. Someone asked her what about
from continuing to do that kind of thing, no I   shin splints and what about this and that
don‘t think so.                                  bone injuries. She said I just run through it.
                                                 Well, I found the same thing. I mean that
S.J.: Do you get out running much?               can be carried to the extreme. If you are
really hurting, I think there are times when    the infection. I have been asked this
you shouldn‘t do that, maybe, but drinking      question about my weight, since I have
lots of water, keeping on the diet. Water is    very little fat on me I get asked that
really important. Stay hydrated and I don‘t     question by concerned relatives.
think we would see these knee problems. I
have been told that for the last 20 years.      T.C.C.: Do you have a lot of pneumonia in
‗Why are you running all the time? Aren‘t       your life?
you afraid you are going to get bad knees?‘
My knees are stronger today than they have      S.J.: No, zero. I hardly ever get sick.
ever been.
                                                T.C.C.:       Well that is probably the best
S.J.: The metabolites from a plant based        answer of all.
diet tend to be more alkaline than
metabolites from an animal based diet,
which tend to be more acidic. Does that         S.J.: Once in the last five years.
have something to do with the ability to
run out cramps and so on?                       T.C.C.:      You can say, well I don‘t tend
                                                to have to worry about pneumonia and
T.C.C.: Maybe, I hadn‘t thought of it quite     colds. I don‘t need the fat; I don‘t need to
that way but I think you have a point there,    worry about it.
an acidic kind of condition especially
resulting from the build up of lactic acid
through vigorous exercise.                      S.J.: I‟ll tell you that in this society, if
                                                people see people without much fat on
S.J.: Compounded by perhaps                     their bodies they get all worried about
metabolites that are acidic from the food.      them or think gosh that is an odd person.

T.C.C.:       That is right, compounded by      T.C.C.:        Well, for years and years and
that and also compounded by not being           years, mothers of little babies how common
hydrated enough. Put all that together. So, I   it was to always hear one woman tell
think, diet can play quite a role in allowing   another woman about their little baby about
us to remain physically active.                 how plump they are. It was a common
                                                expression. Maybe it still is. Everybody
                                                starts to see a really plump baby? Plumpness
S.J.: As a runner, does it help to keep         is not necessarily the best thing in the world.
yourself lean?                                  Surely they need some energy on their body
                                                to use but that is not our problem these days.
T.C.C.: I think so. It makes sense to me.

S.J.: But isn‟t it unhealthy to lose most       S.J.: How often do you get sick?
of ones fat? What if a person without
much fat got pneumonia? There                   T.C.C.: The last time that I really had a cold
wouldn‟t be enough reserves to fight off        was about 10 years ago and it was just
starting to run more seriously at that time,     generally acknowledged that a healthy
and for some reason picked up something          person doesn‘t get as much cold, flu, etc, but
and then that had been something like 10         then you don‘t go back and ask the
years or something. I have maybe had a bit       correlation to that question, ‗well why are
of a flu once in 20 years or 30 years.           they healthy?‘. Maybe they‘re healthy
                                                 because they‘re eating right for starters.
                                                 That linkage is hard to establish in science.
S.J.: I am experiencing the same effect,
and I have been experiencing it for years        S.J.: Well what about the idea that the
now, and I am just wondering how it is           immune system benefits both from the
that the plant based diet and lifestyle that     nutrients and from the oxygenation due
we have been talking about promotes              to exercise?
such fantastic health? We have spoken
about chronic disorders. How might               T.C.C.: Right, I know the immune system is
such an approach prevent or reverse              always in vogue as a really principle system
acute infectious illness such as colds, flu      to keep us healthy and it‘s fair enough to
or bacterial infections?                         talk about what the immune system can do
                                                 and to talk about how we maintain a healthy
T.C.C.: It‘s a good question. I have often       immune system. One of the things about the
wondered to what extent can we get               immune system, and it may be partly my
information on the effect of plant based diets   ignorance compared to some of the other
on lets say the more infectious kinds of         systems I know better, but it‘s an
diseases the communicable diseases, and I        extraordinarily complex system and things
think what you said just on the basis of our     do work together within that system, and I
own personal experiences and the like, it        don‘t know of another system in the body
seems like you are healthy because of the        that is as complex as the immune system
way you eat because of your exercise             involving the cells, involving the ability to
because of getting some outdoor exposure.        make different kinds of things and travel
                                                 around the body and fight this and that and
S.J.: And other lifestyle factors.               some other kind of infections, but it‘s clear
                                                 that the immune system, when it‘s healthy, it
T.C.C.: And other lifestyle factors.             stands to reason that it tends to keep away
                                                 those diseases whether they‘re chronic in
S.J.: Relaxing when needed, meditation.          nature or whether they‘re just occasional
                                                 communicable kinds of disease. Plant based
T.C.C.:         Yes, exactly, and we don‘t get   diets seem to do that. They seem to keep
these kind of infectious diseases. It‘s a        healthy immune systems.
common observation on the part of a lot of
people. Unfortunately, just looking at the       S.J.: Do you ever drink coffee or tea or
literature, I always have to put my scientific   eat vegan chocolate or should I say dairy
hat on every once in a while, unfortunately, I   free chocolate?
don‘t find a lot of information on that other
than the fact that people will say it. It‘s
T.C.C.: Yes, we have dairy free chocolate         T.C.C.: They just have to be persistent
on occasion, what is it called carob.             and it‘s a tough habit to break for some
                                                  people. It seems to be extraordinarily tough
S.J.: So rather than chocolate, you are           for some people who are addicted to that,
talking about carob. That is more                 caffeine in fact. I used to drink coffee, too,
naturally sweetened. Chocolate requires           but only a cup or two a day was enough for
some kind of a sweetener to be added.             me to make me a bit addicted, and so when I
                                                  quit I got a headache. I know what it‘s like
T.C.C.: My wife has put in our cookies            to sort of have to quit, and I can just well
occasionally just a little bit of the chocolate   imagine that those who drink much more
to keep that chocolate taste. I don‘t get too     and try to quit it‘s almost impossible without
excited about eating chocolate chip cookies       going through a lot of suffering but I think
myself. I would rather have raisin and            you just have to be persistent. Just quit and
oatmeal type of cookies.                          live with it for a few days and get past it. I
                                                  don‘t know what else to say about that.
S.J.: What kind of treats do you use
when you are feeling like a treat?                S.J.: I found many useful suggestions on
                                                  steps to take to eliminate or reduce
T.C.C.: Oh, a treat. I had some of my             addictive caffeine, chocolate and dairy
wife‘s cookies for one thing. She makes           products and the biochemical reasons for
cookies now with no fat and just a very           their addictive potential in the book
minimal amount of sugar and she puts in           “Breaking the Food Seduction” by Neal
fruits, dried fruits and things like that and     Barnard, MD.
                                                  T.C.C.: Yes, I have not read that book, but
S.J.: Ground nuts.                                Neal has produced some very nice books,
                                                  and I am sure that he has got something
T.C.C.: Yes.                                      really good to say. I must read that.

S.J.: So that takes the place of oil, for         S.J.: What struck you as one of the
example, using the whole food nut.                more comical events that have happened
                                                  related to your work?
T.C.C.: Exactly, I just find that I am adapted
to that taste now and that to me is a great       T.C.C.: I wish I could see more comedy and
treat. Just to get her to make some of those      not so much of the other kind. Gosh, I don‘t
cookies.                                          know. You have me stumped on that one. I
                                                  think the notion, I thought it was kind of
                                                  comical at the time, that people thought it
S.J.: What would you say to people who            was comical about all of a sudden
can‟t envision letting go of caffeine or          discovering that dogs which I always
chocolate in quantities?                          throught were carnivores pretty much and
                                                  had to have all that meat and stuff and to
                                                  discover that, in fact, people have dogs and
they‘re feeding them vegan dog food and           S.J.: Was he raised on a plant based
they have sleek coats. The dogs seem to be        diet?
doing really well. That is not comical but        T.C.C.: Yes, and I am very excited about it
it‘s unusual in the face of a lot of popular      because he knows that you have to come up
opinion.                                          with a model so that he can make money
                                                  and at the same time do what he wants to do,
                                                  and he has pretty well in mind what he
S.J.: Most of the subjects that we have           wants to do now, and his new wife is an
discussed are detailed in the book “The           official yoga instructor now, and so together
China Study” which cites hundreds of              Tom and Kim and others like them, some
peer reviewed articles. Many further              young people, Dr. McDougall‘s son is in
relevant articles can be found on your            first year medical school too. There are
website:                                          some young people coming along at the .                outset, going to medical school. I had some
                                                  of these kinds of students in my own class at
Thank you very much, Dr. Campbell for             Cornell and now just finishing up medical
your cogent remarks, for your life‟s work         school and still with it. They‘re committed
making an historic contribution to our            to go out and do it and I think that these
understanding of the improvement of               young people… that is one of the really
nutritional support of more robust health         most hopeful signs that I know of. That
and for writing with your son, Thomas,            they‘re going to go out and start their career
the best researched treatise on nutrition         this way, make it work. They‘re not going
ever published, The China Study.                  into the trade, just primed and ready to go
                                                  out and make a lot of money just pushing
T.C.C.: Your comments are very kind, and I        drugs. They‘re going out with a mission and
also want to thank you for your generosity in     I just think that is very exciting. So, thanks
making all this possible. I also might add        again.
another thing about my son Tom. He
graduated theater, of course, I think I
pointed this out before and now he‘s going
back to medical school, and during the
course of writing the book with me, he was,
in fact, a full co-author, I must emphasize
excellent, he learned a lot about the field and
had to go back and take some science
courses a bit. He recently ended up in the
97th percentile in the MCAT entrance exam,
so he now wants to be a doctor following
this path.