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					                         REPORT OF COMMITTEE ON INFRASTRUCTURE

                                           MAY 11, 2005

A meeting of the Committee on Infrastructure was held Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 7:08 p.m. in the
Aldermanic Chamber.

Chair Robert A. Dion presided.

Members of the Committee present: Alderman Marc W. Plamondon, Vice Chair
                                  Alderman-at-Large David W. Deane
                                  Alderman David D. Lozeau
                                  Alderman-at-Large Paula I. Johnson

Members not in Attendance:

Also in Attendance:                 Alderman Kathryn D. Vitale
                                    Lt. Fred Nichols, Nashua Police Department
                                    Susan Klasen, Traffic Engineer
                                    Brian Morrissey, Assistant Fire Chief of Operations, N.F.R.
                                    Paul Newman, Manager, Urban Programs Department




COMMUNICATIONS

From: Jon LeBrun, Deputy City Engineer
Re:   Petition for Street Discontinuance – Edinburgh Drive

MOTION BY ALDERMAN JOHNSON TO ACCEPT AND PLACE ON FILE
MOTION CARRIED

From: Robert A. Dion, Ward 6 Alderman
Re:   Streetlight at 30 Wilder Street

MOTION BY ALDERMAN JOHNSON TO ACCEPT, PLACE ON FILE AND APPROVE THE
INSTALLATION OF A SIX-FOOT BRACKET AND OVAL FIXTURE ON POLE 30/139 TO
SHINE ONTO THE STREET AND THAT THE CITY BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MONTHLY
FEE FOR SAID LIGHT
MOTION CARRIED

From: Stephen Williams, Executive Director, NRPC
Re:   Draft Regional Bicycle and Pedestrian Plan

MOTION BY ALDERMAN JOHNSON TO HOLD THE COMMUNICATION IN COMMITTEE
UNTIL THE MAY 25, 2005, INFRASTRUCTURE MEETING
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                               Page 2

ON THE QUESTION

Chairman Dion

I might add that Mr. Steve Williams, the Executive Director of the Regional Planning Commission
will be here on the 25th along with Matt Waitkins, the primary author of the draft Bike & Pedestrian
Plan. They will be here to review the plan and receive feedback and comments from the Board as
well as the public.
MOTION CARRIED

PETITIONS

Petition for Street Discontinuance – An Unmarked Way off of Edinburgh Drive

MOTION BY ALDERMAN DION TO ACCEPT, PLACE ON FILE AND GRANT THE PETITION
FOR STREET DISCONTINUANCE FOR AN UNMARKED WAY OFF OF EDINBURGH DRIVE

ON THE QUESTION

Chairman Dion

I might add this was also sent to the Planning Board, which issued a favorable recommendation
         th
on the 5 of May. Are there any questions on the motion?
MOTION CARRIED

UNFINISHED BUSINESS - None

ANTICIPATED REFERRAL FROM THE BOARD OF ALDERMEN MEETING OF MAY 10, 2005

O-05-89
    Endorsers: Alderman Robert A. Dion
               Alderman-at-Large David W. Deane
    CREATING NO PARKING ZONES BETWEEN 7 A.M. AND 10 A.M., MONDAY THROUGH
    FRIDAY WHILE SCHOOL IS IN SESSION, ON FAIRLANE AVENUE, FOREST PARK
    DRIVE, AND WILDWOOD LANE

Chairman Dion

I might add that we had a neighborhood meeting on this, and I want to publicly thank
Alderman-at-Large Deane for being at the meeting with me. This was on a Sunday evening and
was held at one of the neighbor‟s homes on Wildwood Lane. I want to thank Alderman Deane
and Mr. Wayne Husband for being there on a Sunday evening. I really appreciate it. I know the
neighbors appreciated it. This is an ordinance creating a no parking zone between 7:00 and
10:00 a.m. Monday through Friday while the school is in session on Fairlane Avenue, Forest Park
Drive, and Wildwood Lane.

I might add that I know some of the neighbors are here this evening. If they would like to speak on
it I will allow them to speak on it. I would just like to say that this has been an ongoing problem for
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                                Page 3

a couple of years. It has just been getting progressively worse and worse. It has come to the
point where a fire apparatus (ladder truck or even a regular fire truck) couldn‟t get through there
because of the students parking on both sides of these three streets. They have invaded the
neighborhood. I have tried everything possible with the officials at B.G. to try to straighten the
situation out to no avail.

The neighbors have had enough. They called a neighborhood meeting. There was about 40 of
them there. They voted unanimously to ban the parking on both sides between the hours of 7:00
and 10:00 a.m. on school days.

MOTION BY ALDERMAN JOHNSON TO RECOMMEND FINAL PASSAGE

ON THE QUESTION

Alderman Johnson

It sounds like the same situation that we had at the high school north, and that is why we also did
the banning from 7:00 to 10:00 a.m. It seems to be working because we haven‟t had any
complaints. I know there were some other issues down there at B.G. with a constituent that the
buses weren‟t going the bus loop and the parents were going in the bus loop to pick up their
children, and B.G. was telling people that they couldn‟t be on the street and had to move their
vehicles. I remember them telling Verizon they couldn‟t work on the poles. We have gotten that
straightened out. I will support this wholeheartedly because I think that although we allow
students to bring vehicles to school I feel that the schools need adequate parking to have these
vehicles for the students to drive. If not then I guess they will have to pay for the buses or I guess
the city pays for the buses because it is parochial school under federal law I believe it is. I think it
is wrong and I think students and parents need to respect the neighborhoods where these
schools are. It seems over the years we have lost total respect for neighborhoods. I am in
support of this.

Chairman Dion

Before we vote on the motion I would like to give an opportunity to some of the residents that are
here this evening to give their input. I know Mr. Foley is here and him and I had a discussion on
the phone. Mr. Foley would you join us please and give us your statement?

Henry Foley, 20 Fairlane Avenue

I have lived there for 29 years. Probably over the last 10 years the parking there has just gotten
worse and worse. When the Planning Board meeting took place about 5 years ago, and I might
be off by a year, about the construction, I was the only one that voiced some concerns about
parking. We were assured the parking problem would be resolved. Well I have to tell you it has
not been resolved. During construction it was an absolute disaster. During the winter one
vehicle, my own vehicle could not go through there. As Mr. Dion said there is no way a fire truck
today, yesterday could even get through there. The buses are not going through there now either
because there is no way they can go through. I live on Fairlane and Wildwood is where the buses
do the loop. It is a disaster. The school knows about it. I certainly appreciate Mr. Dion and David
Deane for coming to that meeting because everybody agreed this is a disaster, and we are just
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                              Page 4

waiting for a problem. We have young children; a lot of young children there and this is a
disgrace. I appreciate anything you folks can do. You are right it is just like the north high school.
Thank you.

Kevin Scully, 7 Wildwood Lane

The neighborhood meeting was held at my house. Thank you Aldermen Dion and Deane for
taking the time out of your own lives. I know how precious those few hours are. Thank you for
coming to my house and hearing our concerns. I have been living at 7 Wildwood Lane since
1985, and have I still consider B.G. to be a good neighbor, but there are some things over which
they have no control, and one of them is the actions of their students when they area off their
campus property. The representatives of B.G. were invited to our house, and they did attend. I
think that was an amicable meeting. They heard us, but they also made it quite clear that they
really cannot help us in this regard. There may be some long term solutions on their part, which
would be more parking construction, but certainly from the perspective of the neighbors who live
on these three streets we really do feel that something needs to be done quickly. Again Mr. Foley
I think expressed the issues of safety; we cannot get our emergency vehicles in there. We do
have young children. There are a number of retired people there as well who can‟t have people
come to their houses because there are no places for folks visiting them to actually park there.

We are asking for your help to basically control this problem, and from my perspective give us our
neighborhood back. We would very much appreciate it if you could help us in this regard.

Chairman Dion

Thank you Mr. Scully. Are there any questions from the committee?

Alderman Lozeau

The neighbors do realize that they will also not be allowed to park there in front of their own
houses from 7:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m. correct?

Kevin Scully

Yeah. It is unfortunate that we have to restrict ourselves in some regard, but we believe this is the
only solution to the problem.

Alderman Lozeau

I believe we did this at the high school in Ward 1 and we had some problems with that. If I could,
could I ask Alderman Vitale to refresh us on the reasons they took the signs down?
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                                Page 5

Chairman Dion

I might add that Alderman Vitale was not the Alderman at the time it was Alderman McAfee, but
maybe she can …

Alderman Lozeau

Yeah but I think she is the Alderman that had the signs removed.

Alderman Vitale

We have not removed all of the signs. We removed a few signs that were on the outskirts that the
residents in that area said they never had troubles with students parking on those streets. It was
done just before I took office, and I have received calls from it since then although probably not in
the 9 months. In the beginning I did – a few complaints that they wanted to have a party in the
morning and have everybody over for coffee and they couldn‟t park on the street, and they would
get a ticket. That was a concern and it is a restriction. It is one that is worth noting especially with
the people that live there now – it is fine everybody agrees, but your houses will eventually sell and
you will have new people within those houses.

Chairman Dion

I might add Alderman Lozeau that I brought that to their attention the night of the meeting, and
they are well aware of the fact that the Police Department knows that if any one of those
neighbors has someone working on their house and has to park their vehicle there between those
hours that if they notify the police department the police department will honor that I am sure. Is
that correct Lieutenant?

Fred Nichols

We can authorize parking in a no parking zone.

Alderman Lozeau

I would like to say that I wholeheartedly support the legislation although I do somewhat
sympathize with the B.G. problem, but it is B.G.‟s problem and it shouldn‟t be yours. Whenever a
neighborhood gets together and voices concern I think it is our duty as the Aldermen to listen to
you and to make your life as better and the quality of your life as best we can. I do wholeheartedly
support it. I apologize for not showing up at your house. I was invited by Alderman Dion and I just
couldn‟t pull it off. Thank you.

Chairman Dion

Thank you Mr. Foley and Mr. Scully for ….
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                            Page 6

Alderman Deane

I just had a question through you to Alderman Vitale. Do you have any more signs you want to
take down? Our memo from the Traffic Department states that we are going to use 6 recycled
signs from Ward 1 for this purpose, which is a cost saving measure. Thank you Traffic
Department for saving us money. We just need two more. Is there an area where you …

Alderman Vitale

I am sure I will get a call now.

Alderman Deane

We will gladly take them. Thank you.

Alderman Plamondon

Basically a statement – as you know Alderman Dion I have been out in this area with you driving
by I think twice now, and I have gone around a few times myself over the past couple of years. I
have to also concur that this is a problem. Although I support Bishop Guertin and as a graduate
– I share Alderman Lozeau‟s viewpoint. It is unfortunate, however, this is their problem it is not
the neighborhood‟s problem. Ultimately the cost is under $400. I do foresee the signs coming
down at some point in the future the same as we have experienced with Nashua High School
North, but I think this is a good exercise to at least get the word out and basically let them know
the neighborhood is fed up and the city is supporting it. I will support this recommendation for a
positive referral to the full Board.

Henry Foley

I would like to add one thing. Parking enforcement has been there all the time. They have done
a great job. I have to give a big compliment there because they are there – they are ticketing –
believe me there are a lot of tickets that go out there so the city does get some money there.

Chairman Dion

Blocking driveways and too close to the intersection …

Henry Foley

Yup. They are there all the time, which is great. We appreciate that.

Chairman Dion

The Police Department needs at attaboy now and then.
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                            Page 7

Henry Foley

They just got one.

Chairman Dion

Is there anyone else from the neighborhood that wants to make a statement before the committee
votes on this? Are there any questions on the motion?
MOTION CARRIED

Chairman Dion

For the people that appeared here this evening – this will now go back to the Board of Alderman
for final passage at the next meeting. Hopefully it will pass then and it will become a law, and the
signs will be installed.

MOTION BY ALDERMAN LOZEAU TO TAKE FROM THE TABLE O-05-84
MOTION CARRIED

O-05-84
    Endorser: Alderman Kathryn D. Vitale
    ESTABLISHING A 25 M.P.H. SPEED LIMIT ON BELFAST STREET, BOXWOOD COURT,
    BUTTERNUT DRIVE, CARDINAL CIRCLE, CATHEDRAL CIRCLE, CHRISTIAN DRIVE,
    CIDER LANE, FROST DRIVE, HAMPTON DRIVE, HEMLOCK COURT, POPE CIRCLE,
    RESURRECTION CIRCLE AND SUNSHINE COURT

Alderman Vitale

We are going to ask to have this amended this evening. There has been notice from the Legal
Department that if we change each of these roads to 25 mph we would have to have a sign on
each of these roads. Most of these are cul-de-sacs; there are only a couple of houses. What we
are going to ask is that someone would make an amendment to change the speed limit to 25 mph
…

Alderman Johnson

I will go make copies of the legislation.

Alderman Vitale

While we are waiting, I will go on to say that changing the speed limit to 25 mph has been ongoing
within the Infrastructure Committee and it has been questioned a number of times. The only thing
that we can do to address it is probably have it changed at the State level. What I am
understanding from Susan Klasen is that there is more streets that would have to be remarked at
25 mph than at 30 mph. If we could change the city to 25 mph and then just mark the streets at 30
mph would be the better way to go. The Legal Department has said that they will give me the
process to go through at the State level.
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                              Page 8

What seems to be taking place is that many neighborhoods are going to be changed to 25 mph
where we have already seen quite a few things go through. The better way to do it is to get it
changed at the State level and then have the streets marked at 30 mph as the flip side because it
would be more expensive to change everything to 25 mph than it would be to have it at 30 mph.

Chairman Dion

We would have an awful lot of 25 mph signs for sale.

Alderman Deane

We might be selling some of them, but we wouldn‟t be buying any more.

Chairman Dion

True.

Alderman Deane

This process maybe Sue can elaborate on it a little bit. We have asked and I know Alderman
Plamondon back when he was a teenager was asking about this – as Merrimack has done, what
is the process and how long do you think it would take to do?

Susan Klasen

The Legal Department hasn‟t explained the process to me in detail. I look forward to a letter or
explanation from them. When we went to Merrimack it states 30 mph unless otherwise posted.
They can do that because the State RSA is 30 mph. If they were to post at 25 mph unless
otherwise posted that would need to be changed at the State level is my understanding from Dave
Connell in the Legal Department. Hudson has a sign when you enter 30 mph unless otherwise
posted; Merrimack is 30 mph unless otherwise posted. I suppose the City of Nashua could do 30
mph unless otherwise posted without going through any legislation, but when we want to change
it to 25 mph unless otherwise posted I have an e-mail here from Corporation Counsel - the last
sentence in this e-mail “The best guidance for how many signs is appropriated is the manual on
Uniform Traffic Control Devices, but in any case the statute appears to call for a sign on each
street for which the speed limit is lowered.

Alderman Deane

Well you started doing a speed limit matrix of the entire city. I haven‟t had a chance to look at your
artwork. I remember there was a lot of different colors on there where you were going through
different neighborhoods and you could see where there was a lot of intensity with ordinances that
were filed especially in Ward 4 where Alderman Plamondon had pretty much covered almost the
entire Ward except for I believe West Hollis and Kinsley, but a lot of the side streets were all in
yellow I believe, and then you could see up in Ward 3 where some of the roads off of the right
hand side of Concord Street in the back, the 25 mph speed limit started coming in bunches here
and there. My question was the amount of streets that we are looking at for 25 mph speed limits
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                                 Page 9

compared to 30 mph, is there a significant difference in what currently exists from 30 mph to 25
mph?

Susan Klasen

Today and if you come to the office and look today what is the past legislation there are more
streets that are 30 mph than 25 mph. The direction that we are heading and looking at the
specific neighbor hoods, this neighborhood being one, where the streets should be at 25 mph,
and if we start to go neighborhood by neighborhood pretty soon we are going to pass that
threshold so there are more streets that are 25 mph than are 30 mph. At that point, it just isn‟t cost
effective to be purchasing signs for 25 mph streets when there are more of them than the 30 mph
streets, but today there are more 30 mph, but the way it is going and looking at specific
neighborhoods that I have been looking at down near Sunset Heights School and in the Parish Hill
area in particular, a lot of those streets should be 25 mph that currently are 30 mph.

Alderman Deane

I am not a Ward Alderman and I know my Ward Alderman, Alderman Gage, has introduced quite
a bit of legislation associated with reducing the speed limit down to 25 mph and I know now
Alderman Vitale is doing it – I don‟t know about the other Ward Aldermen. Alderman Dion has
done some. I just think the direction in which we are going in I think some how, some way it would
be nice to approach the legislators at the State level and deal with this. As Alderman Dion said we
have made significant purchases, and if you look at the standards that the signs have to be
installed – not only that, but then on the continued maintenance – once you put it up you are
maintaining it so now if it gets hit by a plow or a car or the kids bend it or it gets stolen or – as soon
as you put a sign up like that you have now incurred another maintenance cost. I would really like
to see something done at the State level. Maybe Alderman Johnson wearing her other hat could
help us in this area.

Chairman Dion

I have always felt the same way as Alderman Plamondon and you Alderman Deane. I feel as
though it should be 25 mph in the city – the entire city except for the arterial streets. It is bad
enough the way it is that we should put them at 25 mph. I have always felt that way. I know it has
to be done at the State level. I mentioned that to you months ago when you were talking about
doing exactly what we want to do. I told you then that I tried myself and I was told that it had to be
done at the State level if you remember correctly.

Alderman Deane

I do.
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                              Page 10

Chairman Dion

I am just giving you my opinion. I have always felt that way. I feel as though 25 mph is fast
enough to drive in the city. If you take Kinsley Street and West Hollis Street they are main arteries
at 30 mph, and even then you can‟t keep them at 30 mph. You go down Kinsley Street and you
show me a car going 30 mph. There isn‟t any. They are all going 40-45 mph.

Alderman Plamondon

First a little bit of a history lesson and then I have some questions and statements on the pending
legislation. Point was made about 30 mph and so on. That is State law whether it is signed,
posted or not. In affect what the surrounding towns have done is put up signs at the entrance of
their towns posting 30 mph unless otherwise posted, but it is a waste of money. Statewide if there
isn‟t a sign on the street it is automatically 30 mph. I think people forget that the day they get their
driver‟s license, however that is State law. Ten years ago I brought this legislation through and it
was a two-year battle to get the 25 mph legislation through the Board of Aldermen in the City of
Nashua.

Part of the reasons why it took two years are the same things that we have been discussing this
evening and prior evenings – it is the same fears. When the first legislation came through to go
forward with the 25 mph speed limit we looked at key areas; first was the Tree Streets – high
traffic volume, the densest populated area of the city, accidents, traffic counts, we had numbers
on speeding vehicles – a lot of data (and Tyler Street – shortcut Street, Sullivan Towers – self
explanatory). That was the first legislation that went through. The next legislation looked at Little
Florida. Part of the argument was not to spend an exorbitant amount on signs and so on so what
we did is we passed legislation for Intervale – for one street coming in – Intervale is 25 mph so it
is thought that when people go into that neighborhood they would think the whole neighborhood is
25 mph. That is why I have issue with this neighborhood, but I will get to that in a minute.

My questions if I might – could I has through you Mr. Chair either the Alderman who is bringing
this legislation forward or the police department – if smart trailers were put out there or the other
speeding device? Have we gotten any data collection on are vehicles speeding, how much are
they speeding by, and I would also like to know if the NRPC has done traffic counts – vehicle
volumes. I know I can‟t compare this to the Tree Streets, but I know looking at this neighborhood
not one of these streets is getting in excess of 1,000 cars a day like these inner city streets are.

I see they are curvy roads – to get a vehicle over 40 mph or a substantial amount of vehicles over
40 mph – I have a hard time believing it. I really really do. To the average citizen a car going down
the street at 30- mph looks like 40-45 mph, but without the data to prove that of 500 cars a day for
example on Hampton Street 75% of them are going 45 mph, I have a hard time putting forward
legislation because every neighborhood wants this. What I would support though is much like we
did for Little Florida and what we did on Intervale is made Intervale 25 mph. I look at this
neighborhood and I see basically three entrances; Hampton coming off of Coburn Ave., Frost,
and Parish Hill. There are only three ways in. That would really cost the money for three signs,
which if we can pull signs that we had up from the Nashua High School North that would save
money and it would send a message. I wanted to first ask if we have gotten any data collection as
far as do we know for a fact that vehicles are speeding and do we have traffic counts. Thank you.
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                                Page 11

Alderman Vitale

I was going to say that was going to be my motion is to change it to have just the four main roads
marked. That was what Corporation Counsel after we went through everything, suggested. As
far as traffic counts I know that we have had complaints regarding speeding in the area.

Chairman Dion

To the best of your knowledge Alderman Vitale and Lt. was the smart trailer put there at any time
to check the speeds or traffic counts or anything?

Fred Nichols

What we are getting right now is our biggest problem is the complaints on Coburn Ave. with the
kids coming and going from school. That is what it seems like our most problems are. Right now
we have extra patrols out there. The guy that works out there in that sector he has run radar
during those times when they are going to and coming from school because it is a cut through
over to Pine Hill Road. We have also had – we have a counter out there that monitors speeds. It
is not a smart trailer it is a discreet one that counts it and we monitor speeds that way. We have
also put our traffic guys out there. We are seeing our biggest problem on Coburn Ave. We have
to address that now by putting extra patrols up there and cutting the speeds down with the kids.

Chairman Dion

I think Alderman Plamondon‟s question was on these particular streets here – well Alderman
Vitale why don‟t you mention the four streets that you were talking about.

Alderman Vitale

The four streets that we would be looking at would be Cathedral Circle, Parish Hill, Hampton
Drive, and Cider Lane.

Chairman Dion

Alderman Plamondon I guess your answer is noted there have been no traffic counts taken.

Alderman Plamondon

I would entertain or move to reduce the streets on here. I don‟t understand Cider. I do
understand Hampton. I would even support Frost, and I would support Parish Hill, but my
intention – I would rather us focus on Coburn Ave. That is where we are having – that is the
shortcut street. That is the street that the vehicles are using. That is the street if you put a traffic
count out there that is the street that is going to carry the volumes of vehicles. It also has some
nasty corners on that road that are dangerous. I think it would make sense to reduce Coburn Ave.
to 25 mph. For discussion sake, but for further streets in these neighborhoods I would want to get
our discreet radar unit out because I know that can do traffic counts too, and get some numbers.
I am not trying to be hard on this it is just that those of us that sit on this committee year after year,
meeting after meeting – what we hear every single meeting, what we get on our phones –
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                              Page 12

speeding vehicles. Every single street in this city wants – they want the cars slowed down. They
think 25 mph will work. Nothing works without enforcement.

We would need a fleet of traffic enforcement of 90-100 vehicles to patrol over 300 miles of streets
in the city.

Chairman Dion

I got a phone call this evening Alderman Plamondon from a constituent on Baldwin Street, and I
will be talking about this later, but I know that there are people out there that are complaining
about this.

Alderman Plamondon

Baldwin is 25 mph. I have been out there and these little Japanese hot rod cars that are all
soaped up they line up on Baldwin and they gun it – they hit the wooden bridge to get air and then
they stop by the stop sign – there will be 3 or 4 of them and there will be parts hanging off the cars.

Chairman Dion

That is exactly what this gentleman was complaining about.

Alderman Plamondon

I saw it with my own eyes. My own eyes.

Chairman Dion

Right now we are getting off the subject.

Alderman Plamondon

Sorry – you brought me to Baldwin.

Chairman Dion

I know I said I was going to bring it up later. Coburn Ave. Alderman Vitale is that a 30 mph road?

Alderman Vitale

No Coburn Ave. was changed to 25 mph and I will mention that Coburn Avenue is considered one
of those main streets.

Chairman Dion

So Coburn is 25 mph right now?

Alderman Vitale
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                             Page 13


It is already 25 mph. Right now what I watch the kids do because I take my daughter to school
every so often because of practice, is that they will get to the top of the hill and if the traffic is
backed up they will cut through either this neighborhood or they will go through the neighborhood
of Chapel Hill. If you look at Cider it is a curbed road and at the top of Cider near Boxwood and
Butternut is the top of the hill. Even though it doesn‟t look like that much because it is a curbed
road and it is going down hill both ways they can pick up the speed to get down to those corners.
I have been there and watched them do it. I do get phone calls from there. I get phone calls over
off of Cathedral, and I get phone calls from Parish Hill Drive that there is speeding going on. It is
because of the curves and those blind spots – they do speed. I will say I don‟t remember counters
being there recently although some time in the past they had it at Parish Hill, but it has been a
while. It has been before I took office I believe – I remember seeing something on Parish Hill
Drive.

Chairman Dion

Then that answers your question Alderman Plamondon – Coburn Ave. is 25 mph.

Alderman Plamondon

It is not an arterial though, but it is a carrier street. I would ask – my closing statements before –
I know other Aldermen want to speak. I would ask that we get the discreet radar unit out there on
Cider or the NRPC. They can do traffic counts and those traffic counts also can monitor what the
speeds are so we get some numbers. I would like to know how many cars are doing it. If I had
some kind of numbers I would support some action, but right now I just don‟t have enough to go
by. I do believe that the kids are using this as a shortcut, but I would like to get some numbers.
Hopefully it is something we can do within the next 3-4 weeks.

Alderman Johnson

Ms. Klasen as September starts rolling around that is when I believe I can start introducing more
legislation. Then around August you and I can sit down and start working on anything that we
need to do up at the State House regarding the speed limits. My other concern is I keep hearing
us talk about 25 mph speed limit on the residential streets and the neighborhoods. Why aren‟t we
trying to drop it to 15 mph to really slow down the traffic?

Chairman Dion

You can‟t.

Alderman Johnson

Maybe that is another issue we should take a look at the State law. When you look at 25 mph and
30 mph that is still a good speed going through a neighborhood especially when kids are out there
playing in the streets. I would maybe make a note that we will take a look at 25 mph and 15 mph
in the neighborhoods. If you are going to slow the traffic down you want to slow them down to
below 25 mph so it becomes safer.
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                                Page 14

Chairman Dion

The lowest right now I believe is 20 mph and that is in a school zone.

Alderman Johnson

And people in a school zone go breezing by. I have never seen so much speeding in this city than
I have seen in the last few years. Deputy Chief Connolly – I spoke to him about the highway and
you see more State Troopers out there now pulling over especially on Sunday mornings. We are
getting a handle on that a little bit, but I would like to try to see it get down lower through these
neighborhoods. I truly believe 15 is still fast going through a neighborhood.

Alderman Lozeau

Thank you. I keep on hearing it is the kids, it is the kids – that is unfortunate, but I think if a kid on
his first driver‟s license and I would assume most of the kids in the high school are on their first
driver‟s license – if they get a speeding ticket don‟t they lose their license?

Fred Nichols

Within the first year yes.

Alderman Lozeau

I don‟t know maybe we can direct some kind of effort toward educating the kids at the schools. I
have the same problem on my side of the river. We have changed speed limits to 25 mph on cut
through zones and it is awful out there. We just seem to be spitting on the wrong side of the boat.

Chairman Dion

I have been saying the same thing for a long time.
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                             Page 15

Alderman Lozeau

Do you have any input Lieutenant? I don‟t know what to do.

Fred Nichols

What we are doing is we have our traffic guys out there and they are giving out tickets and all that.
The word should be out that we are out there.

Chairman Dion

I saw in the District Court this week there were 2-3 speeders that lost their license for 15-20 days
and one of them I believe was 90 days. They are doing something about it when they get them –
I am talking about young people.

Alderman Plamondon

I thought I might have had the RSA for 25 mph, but I can‟t find it, but if I might through you Mr.
Chair to I will address her as State Representative Johnson – if you could do something to look at
amending the legislation that currently states 25 mph being the minimum that would be great, but
while you are at it can we also look at the revenues on moving violations that the municipality gets
a percentage of the money.

Chairman Dion

Moving violations you are talking about?

Alderman Plamondon

Right now the burden is on in this case the City of Nashua – we pay for the officers out there, we
pay for the tickets for the radar units – we pay everything – we pay for officers having to go to
court, and we have to pay them a minimum – it reaches the point where we have this huge
problem of speeding vehicles and other moving violations, but it is not cost effective to enforce
these laws when we are dealing with bank robberies and murders and domestic violence and so
on. If we could get a piece of that pie back. I know indirectly we do through some training that
some revenues do filter down to the municipalities in the guides of training, but it is peanuts, it is
pennies on the dollar.

Chairman Dion

I keep hearing that the money derived by the State for moving violations is used for the court
system to run the court system in different communities where the cities and towns don‟t pay the
expenses it is paid by the State. They claim that money they get from moving violations pays for
that.
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                             Page 16

Alderman Plamondon

I have also heard that there is always excess revenues. Okay so reducing the speed, the fines,
and I am drawing a blank on the third thing that I wanted to ask to get out of Concord.

Alderman Johnson

Alderman Plamondon what I will say to you too come August why don‟t you and I sit down and we
will write up some legislation so I can submit it to their Legal Department and then they will word it
the way it has to be to go to the House.

Alderman Plamondon

The last thing – can we do something in the State House with people on cell phones and driving?

Chairman Dion

Oh my God I would endorse that 100%. I have been after Alderman Johnson to do this for …

Alderman Johnson

I was only elected and sworn in in December.

Alderman Plamondon

It is absolutely unbelievable.

Chairman Dion

Do you realize how many accidents are caused by cell phones being held by drivers that are never
reported because they don‟t know the cell phone goes 20 feet who knows that they were talking
on the phone.

Alderman Lozeau

I would like to highlight that there is legislation pending in Concord to actually take away paying
violations from the municipality and return it to the State. If you could stay on top of that. I did
read that there was legislation pending in Concord to take the traffic violation money away from …

Chairman Dion

There goes our traffic enforcement.
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                              Page 17

Alderman Lozeau

I did send off a few nasty e-mails to some people up there and the maker of that legislation. Since
the unified court system back I believe in the late „70s – the municipality used to get a piece of the
action as we call it and the unified court system when they established that took anything that is
prosecuted through the court system and kept that money themselves. I do have a question for
the Lieutenant if I may. If somebody sees someone speeding can they file a complaint or is that
kind of hard to prosecute?

Fred Nichols

They can file it. We get many calls about people speeding or reckless even with their operation.
What we will do is get the registration, run it down, and we will call them up or send someone to
talk to them, but without us seeing it and that person coming into court there is not much we will be
able to do for issuing violations. Speed because speed is so …

Chairman Dion

Word of mouth doesn‟t stand up is that it?

Fred Nichols

Correct.

Alderman Deane

I just wanted to ask – I have enjoyed the conversation that has been going on – are we still on
O-05-84?

Chairman Dion

Yes we are Alderman Deane, but we haven‟t heard from Sue Klasen yet.

Alderman Deane

Thank you.

Chairman Dion

Sue about the legislation – let‟s get back on track here – here we are we are talking about
amending this legislation. What is your input on that?

Susan Klasen

If I may just ask – you said Parish Hill Drive – that wasn‟t in the original ordinance so if you look at
the map that you probably all have that is highlighted, Parish Hill Drive is not highlighted.
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                           Page 18

Alderman Vitale

Parish Hill Drive was supposed to be on there.

Susan Klasen

Okay so Parish Hill Drive, Hampton Drive… what are the four?

Chairman Dion

I have Parish, Hampton, Cider, and Cathedral.

Alderman Johnson

Are we going to keep Cider on this?

Susan Klasen

The Traffic Department does support reducing the speed limit on these four streets. As stated in
the memorandum you had in the last meeting‟s packet dated April 22nd, we were questioning
whether 25 mph could even be attained on some of these streets. I was out there myself and
some of them were Cardinal Circle – it is sort of difficult to get to 25 mph as there are just a few
homes there. I think this is the appropriate approach to take, and hopefully working with
Alderman Johnson we can work at the State level and try to reduce the speed limit throughout the
city. In the long term it would save the city some money.

Chairman Dion

So the Traffic Department supports amending this to these four streets is that correct?

Susan Klasen

Yes we do.

Alderman Deane

I don‟t see Parish Hill Drive on the list. Through you Mr. Chairman to Alderman Vitale, would you
like Parish Hill Drive added to the legislation?

Alderman Vitale

Yes I definitely want that added. I must have been looking at it and thinking I was reading it every
time. I did not notice that was not on there.

MOTION BY ALDERMAN DEANE TO AMEND O-05-84 BY ADDING PARISH HILL DRIVE TO
THE LIST OF STREETS
MOTION CARRIED
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                            Page 19

MOTION BY ALDERMAN DEANE TO AMEND O-05-84 IN THE TITLE AND BODY TO READ
“ESTABLISHING A 25 M.P.H. SPEED LIMIT ON CATHEDRAL CIRCLE, CIDER LANE,
HAMPTON DRIVE, AND PARISH HILL DRIVE”
MOTION CARRIED

MOTION BY ALDERMAN DEANE TO RECOMMEND FINAL PASSAGE OF O-05-84 AS
AMENDED

ON THE QUESTION

Alderman Plamondon

I will not support recommending final passage nor will I support should that come through this
committee for a favorable recommendation at the full Board for final passage until I have traffic
counts and something showing that we do in fact have speeding vehicles. I will offer my own
radar gun that I went out and bought to use to get the numbers, but I have just been through this
way too many times throughout the years. I want some data to show that .. we are going through
this exercise and for all I know the vehicles are doing 30 mph.

Chairman Dion

Are there any other questions on the motion?

Alderman Deane

I will be supporting the motion. I think it is imperative that we start bringing these speed limits
down regardless of data or traffic counts or radar guns or anything else for that matter.

Chairman Dion

The motion is to recommend final passage as amended. Are there any other questions on the
motion?
MOTION CARRIED

MOTION BY ALDERMAN JOHNSON TO TAKE O-05-82 FROM THE TABLE
MOTION CARRIED

O-05-82
    Endorser: Alderman-at-Large Paula I. Johnson
    BROADENING BUS STOP VIOLATIONS AND INCREASING AND POSTING THE
    RELATED FINE

Chairman Dion

I notice Director Paul Newman is here with us. Paul why don‟t you join us? I am sure you
probably have some input on this legislation.

Alderman Johnson
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                             Page 20


The reason I wrote this new ordinance is because I think the increasing number of people that
think a bus stop especially at the malls is a place to park their cars. We are talking about fire lane
also at the bus stop area usually at the malls, but that is my next ordinance. I think people have to
understand that you can‟t park at a bus stop, you can‟t sit and idle at a bus stop, and you have to
leave that bus stop open for the buses to pick up passengers. That is why I have written this
ordinance to up the fines. I am hoping that we will get the police to ticket people when they are at
these bus stops because it is just out of control in this city. It is out of control. People are lazy,
they don‟t want to park where the designated parking is, and they just park anyplace now. That is
why I wrote this ordinance.

Chairman Dion

Alderman Johnson would you elaborate on your legislation as far as the fines are concerned from
where we are going to where we are?

Alderman Johnson

The fines are going to be any one violation of this provision shall be fined $150.00 from an original
– additional signs shall indicated that violators are subject to $150.00 – not paid within – it is
$150.00.

Chairman Dion

Where is it now?

Alderman Johnson

From $50.00 to $150.00. My biggest issue and when I wrote the handicapped legislation to up the
fine the biggest problem was nothing was posted on the signs. The only reason my legislation
passed because I was told by another Alderman if we make the merchants post the violation
amount of the fine then some Aldermen weren‟t going to vote for it. In order to get it passed I
amended it to eliminate that. We see many people parking there and they don‟t care because
they figure it is a $20 fine to park in handicap. I think my biggest issue is that I want everything
signed. People need to understand that if you park there what the penalty will be.

Chairman Dion

Paul Newman have you got any input on this legislation?

Paul Newman

Certainly appreciate the concern over passengers who ride the bus and their ability to gain access
to them safely. It seems like that is what this is intending to do. Indeed there are a number of
stops throughout the city where more frequent than others that cars are parked in the vicinity of
the bus stops. As Alderman Johnson notes it is often at the malls. Some of the other locations
where we have conflicts are in areas that are very congested in any event, which would be in
particular around the schools and in some cases we do have bus stops where there actually is
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                             Page 21

parking permitted so it is signed both ways, which can be a bit of a confusion. Nevertheless while
it is sometimes an inconvenience for the passengers I wouldn‟t say it is necessarily a particular
safety issue as long as the vehicles are actually parked and not idling and potentially moving.
Usually passengers will adapt and move between a parked stationary vehicle. The net effect is
that the bus ends up stopping in the travel lane so it is not so much a danger to the pedestrian or
the rider as to the traffic having to then maneuver around the bus itself. I would ask the Lieutenant
if he has any observations himself, but that is sort of the evident observations from our drivers and
observing it out in the field.

Nevertheless in talking to Susan Klasen it seems like we – I don‟t understand that we can
necessarily regulate it at the malls and/or ticket.

Chairman Dion

Private property.

Paul Newman

Yeah I guess that is the issue there, which may be what this was mostly targeted to. That is a
question I would ask before we carry this discussion further is whether it is enforceable.

Chairman Dion

I am glad you brought that up Paul. Let me ask Lieutenant Nichols how he feels about enforcing
this legislation if it is passed.

Fred Nichols

Well if it is passed we will do like we do every other ordinance – we will enforce it. We just have to
make sure that it is considered a public way and that it is on public property so that we can go
ahead and summons for that.

Alderman Johnson

So if this passes and it is at a shopping mall – can you ticket at a shopping mall/private property?

Fred Nichols

We can for fire lane violations.

Alderman Deane

It is a public way. They can be ticketed.

Alderman Johnson

Thank you.
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                              Page 22

Alderman Deane

My question to the officer – a public way is a public way. Say for instance like the Cumberland
Farms on the corner of Amherst Street and Broad – that whole parking lot would that be
considered a public way? If I parked a car there and I didn‟t have a driver‟s license and I went – I
never went on the street, but I moved the car from one section of that parking lot to the other could
I be arrested for driving without a license?

Fred Nichols

The statute reads it has to be on a – well actually it says public or private way so you could yes.

Alderman Deane

So it is illegal.

Fred Nichols

Right. I would have to look in the ordinance, but I believe it says public or private way now
because we used to have problems with people on private ways.

Alderman Deane

I think that is when that was changed, and now it is – the mall property may be private property,
but it is a public way so it is enforceable. You see people park in fire lanes like at Hannafords for
instance they line up and things of that nature. Thank you very much for your answers.

Alderman Plamondon

I like the idea of having a sign and stating what the fine is as deterrence, but some years ago I am
the one that brought the legislation through to bring it to $50. I don‟t even think there was a fine.
I think I brought in the original legislation. The next legislation for fire lanes I boosted that up to
$100. I am just not convinced that raising the fines to these levels is going to be the deterrence.
I think we get a bigger deterrence with a sign saying no parking $50 fine or in the next case, which
I am assuming will come up, is the fire lane - $100 fine fire lane … tape flipped … that increasing
the fines from $50 to $150 at bus stops is going to really resolve the problem. In other words I
think someone who gets slapped with a $50 ticket will learn the lesson almost as well as a person
with $150 ticket. I am open for debate on that, but that is kind of where I am trying to wrestle over
now. Thank you.
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                              Page 23

Alderman Johnson

I guess you can say a person who gets a $5 parking ticket are they going to change it if they get
a $10 or $20 parking ticket. The issue is yes it is enforcement, but you know you go to these malls
and you see the elderly or the handicapped or mother with children trying to get on these buses or
even in the street – why should people have to be inconvenienced getting off of a bus or the bus
has to stop in the middle of the road because somebody has to park at a bus stop especially in the
winter time when things get worse? It gets to be ridiculous in this city. We have parking spots for
people to park and they don‟t want to walk. Now we have spots for pregnant mothers and people
with children. I didn‟t have that luxury when my kids were young and I was pregnant. The issue is
we have to have people park where they are supposed to be parking. My next legislation comes
up for fire lanes that is even more important regarding it, but you know again you look at the south
end of town at Market Basket and people just park right in the middle between Papa Ginos,
WalGreens, and Market Basket and don‟t even care they park the car, shut it off, and they go into
the stores like that is a legal parking spot.

They will be the first ones that scream if there is a fire and their loved ones are in the store and the
firemen couldn‟t get in there to do what they had to do. This is called pure rudeness and
inconsideration for people in this city now. I for one am sick and tired of this. This is why if you
can‟t get them to move one way then I guess you have to go after their pocketbooks. Maybe if
they get a stiff enough fine they will understand that you park in a designated parking area. Thank
you.

Alderman Lozeau

I would ask that who would be responsible for posting these signs? I don‟t think unless we post a
sign that we can enforce the ordinance. Am I not correct?

Fred Nichols

As long as it is marked. You know how a lot of them will have marks in the roadways and
emergency fire lanes? We can enforce that. There doesn‟t have to be a sign for that.

Alderman Lozeau

Then my next question would be – I would feel a little bit more comfortable doubling if not tripling
the fine if I knew what other communities charged. I am wondering if you have any information
regarding what other communities charge for the same type of ordinance violation.

Chairman Dion

Alderman Johnson do you have an answer for that?

Alderman Johnson

No I don‟t know what they are charging, but you know a couple of years ago when I was down in
Florida, Florida I think is $250 in Miami – South Beach, for parking in a handicapped. I think it
probably just varies by community. I think we are one of the higher ones in New Hampshire as far
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                              Page 24

as the handicapped. Again, you know it is either we are going to get people to enforce this and hit
people‟s pocketbooks to understand you don‟t belong here – you need to park in a designated
area.

Alderman Lozeau

Alderman Johnson we will have to prevent you from leaving town.

Alderman Plamondon

I thank Alderman Lozeau for posing that question for me because I too share that concern. I just
want to know what other municipalities charge. Another reason why I really believe these fines
are excessive is keep in mind that the NROs another piece of legislation that was brought through
was once people are at a $200 in arrears they are subject to being towed with an additional $100
fine and incurring all of the towing fees. If we are looking – that is why I really wrestled with the
handicapped parking. I almost voted against it, but I think that has enough merit to go for, but I
just $150 for a bus stop and if they have say 2 overnight parkings or one overnight parking and
they are not paid because an additional $10, the $150 fine what does that have for a penalty for
over – there is no other additional penalty for after 7 days, but it is pretty easy to get it up to $200
and now we are towing it. Granted they shouldn‟t have been there – the whole mindset of
community policing is we want to educate people. We don‟t want to punish them all to a point
where they can‟t afford to buy groceries or whatever. The fine has to fit the violation. I just want
to remind everybody that we do have that $200 ceiling and towing because that is designed to
catch these individuals that continually take for granted our non-moving violations. Myself the
more I think about it I think the $150 is excessive. I might consider $100. That is my viewpoint.
Thank you Mr. Chair.

Alderman Deane

Thank you. I had a question through you to Alderman Johnson. Alderman Johnson I am looking
at the legislation here, and you have 13280 bus stops A and B. Under B it says school bus stops
and below that it says Bishop Guertin School, Almost Street east side adjacent to the school
entrance and then you have Manchester Street west side from Mt. Pleasant to French Street.
Those are designated school bus stops?

Alderman Johnson

Dory wrote the legislation. I would almost venture to say that they must be connecting with the
regular bus stops. May I ask Mr. Newman?

Paul Newman

I don‟t believe there are any bus stops that are signed.
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                              Page 25

Alderman Johnson

There is on Manchester Street.

Susan Klasen

There is no parking zones. There is I believe a two hour limit. There is a city bus stop on the other
side of Manchester Street opposite Mt. Pleasant School. I was also looking at that legislation and
just wondering the school bus and then the sub-section, the B.G. and Mt. Pleasant – does this
mean that every school bus stop would need to be signed or just these two and .. I didn‟t really
understand that actually the part B.

Alderman Johnson

No I am not signing the school bus stops. This is just for the city bus. I believe that the bus stops
– I know where one bus stop is on Manchester Street, which is across the street from Mt. Pleasant
School. I think there is one right across the street from B.G. also – that is why. I know the one
definitely on Mt. Pleasant Street because I had a conversation with a resident there about
enclosures on Manchester Street right by Mt. Pleasant Street School.

Alderman Deane

I really think we have to figure this out. I am not up on all of the bus stop areas throughout the city.
I know Mr. Newman would be – he pretty much knows the transit route. This legislation does
include school bus stops, which was added and your intention was to deal with public bus stops. I
would say that although I am not sure whether there is a public bus stop on Almont Street on the
east side adjacent to the school entrance or not, and I know there is one over on Manchester
Street as you had mentioned earlier – somehow/someway I would amend this by taking school
bus stops out, which is item B. The it says no stopping, idling, standing, or parking whatsoever at
bus stops with posted no stopping, idling, standing, or parking signs for a distance of 40 feet. It
does include school bus stops. Unless there is other language. When you go down Charlotte
Avenue I believe some of those buses there line up on that section of – those are school buses
now that line up on that section of Charlotte Avenue. If you are going to include school bus stops
there would have to be some sort of time designation. I know that Mt. Pleasant School for
instance does not have busing. They do have one or two small buses, but the majority of the
students are either walkers or their parents drive them to school or they walk themselves. I really
think you should – I am suggesting that maybe we should just talk to Dory – excuse me Attorney
Clarke, and have this looked at a little further so we can get this straightened out. I would
recommend holding O-05-82 in committee until we get further review from Corporation Counsel‟s
Office.

MOTION BY ALDERMAN DEANE TO HOLD O-05-82 IN COMMITTEE PENDING FURTHER
REVIEW FROM CORPORATION COUNSEL’S OFFICE
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                             Page 26

ON THE QUESTION

Alderman Lozeau

Thank you. I would ask for some clarification from the Lieutenant. If a fine isn‟t paid that violates
an ordinance is it prosecuted through the court system?

Fred Nichols

Yes.

Alderman Lozeau

If I may speak on that – when a fine is unreasonable or at least a Judge feels a fine is
unreasonable what they normally do is they put it on file and that pretty much – am I not correct
with that?

Fred Nichols

In fact, I believe that is happening with our parking violations. Those that do go to court they end
up putting the fine on file.

Alderman Lozeau

So therefore no fine is actually collected. I would like to be careful with this because I don‟t want
to burden the court for one, I don‟t want to burden the people for two, and I am telling you if this
goes before a Judge at $150 that Judge is going to think it is excessive and he is going to place
these things on file and they are not going to pay them.

Chairman Dion

The motion is to hold O-05-82. Are there any questions on the motion?

Susan Klasen

Can I ask for a clarification? The Traffic Department was wondering who would be responsible for
installing these signs.

Paul Newman

I just thought I would add for your further consideration is you could consider this much along the
same lines – there is around 290 bus stops in the city, city bus stops, and Sue provided an
estimate of about $20 per sign so it would be assuming we buy spares that would be about $6,000
and the man hours say if you spent ½ hour per sign – and I don‟t know if this is what the final intent
is, but just to give you a relative gauge, if you spent say ½ hour say a two man crew and a truck at
$50 an hour you are talking $13,000 or so to sign every bus stop. Comparatively there are 11 bus
stops at malls where there are fire lanes as well. If you have the fire lane where you can ticket do
you really need to have a bus stop sign as well? Just for your consideration.
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                            Page 27


Alderman Deane

We would have to hand out 86.66 repeated tickets that would have to be paid before we started
recapturing that $13,000 if they weren‟t placed on file as Alderman Lozeau had suggested if the
court felt the fine to be excessive.

Alderman Johnson

My intent was not to sign every bus stop. My intent was basically more to sign the malls. Let
people know that there are bus stops. Also see if we can work with the merchants because I am
hearing some stories from somebody yesterday about handicap at another mall. Security didn‟t
want to call the police to have somebody ticketed for parking in handicapped. This has got to be
a joint venture between everybody, but obviously I don‟t think it is a joint venture between anybody
in this city anymore. I am trying to get these areas workable again because when people can‟t get
on the bus – why should I take a bus if I can‟t get on the bus because there are cars parked there
and the bus can‟t stop? It is a double-edged sword. We could stay the way we are and yeah the
Judge can say that these are excessive fines we just raised it for today $5 more to file cases in
small claims court so we could have mediation – bring all the lawyers from Superior Court over to
the District Court to mediate..

Alderman Lozeau

Did that pass?

Alderman Johnson

Yes it did. So we can get cases moving through small claims court faster. I guess we have to
take a stand on what needs to be done. We could slap people‟s hands all the time and say bad
people don‟t do this again or you can rise to the occasion - $200 – well you know how many
parking tickets do they need downtown at $10 a pop now? Then they can‟t drive their car. We
just voted on that. We talked about people being at a meter all day long and pumping the meter
and we upped the fines there. What about people that park at bus stops and pose the people
can‟t get on the bus who have to depend on public transportation to get through the city – who
don‟t have a car. I will support holding it in committee until we get clarification on this. I will
consider maybe dropping it, but we have to make some decisions in this city. We talk about
speed limits, we talk about everything, but this is all part of it – getting people to understand you
can‟t speed; you can‟t park where you are not designated to park. Thank you.

Chairman Dion

The motion is to hold O-05-82. Are there any questions on the motion?
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                            Page 28

Alderman Plamondon

Very briefly – I will support to hold, but I would also ask that Lieutenant Nichols ask for special
attention to our bus stops and see if we can get some numbers on some violations and get some
$50 tickets out there and try to get the message out. I suspect the weekends are the worst so
maybe we can get someone out there. Thank you.

Alderman Lozeau

Thanks Alderman Johnson for holding this. If we are going to introduce legislation I just want it to
be legislation that works and makes sense. Sometimes that just takes a little bit of time. Thank
you for holding this legislation.
MOTION CARRIED

Chairman Dion

If I may with the indulgence of the committee there is a gentleman in the audience that asked me
before the meeting to speak. He is on crutches and I know he is probably getting uncomfortable.
If it is okay with the committee I would like to have him approach the microphone. He has a
complaint. The police department is here. It borders with the police department.

Give your name and address Leo. I know you brought some pictures with you, and you have been
trying on the phone to get results and haven‟t been successful. Why don‟t you pass the pictures
along to the Aldermen here, give your name and address, and give us your complaint.

Leo Dutrisac, 8/10 Van Buren Street

I seem to go home and I have these people blocking my driveways almost every other day if not
every day. I try to call down and have them ticketed and it seems like I have gone everywhere in
Nashua to try and get these people to stop blocking my driveways and they just won‟t stop.

Chairman Dion

Now you own the property at 8 and 10 Van Buren Street is that correct?

Leo Dutrisac

Yes I own.

Chairman Dion

You told me prior to the start of the meeting that you tried to get ahold of a couple of Aldermen and
you weren‟t successful.
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                          Page 29

Leo Dutrisac

Yes correct. I have their names right here on this sheet of paper right here – one on the top, this
one right here and this one right here.

Chairman Dion

This is Ward 7 right?

Leo Dutrisac

Yeah. I called two Aldermen. I have their names right here. I have been calling this top one here
since December. Everybody that I talked to – I went to the city to ask if they would put a no
parking sign up. I have called the Aldermen to see if I could have a no parking sign put across
from my driveways to stop these people from blocking my driveway. I don‟t have a sign, and
these people are constantly parking there all the time – day and night, morning, 24 hours a day on
the weekend. It is like this is just unreal.

Chairman Dion

You have called the police department.

Leo Dutrisac

Yes I have.

Chairman Dion

From what you told me you were accused of harassment?

Leo Dutrisac

Yes I was.

Chairman Dion

Would you tell the committee exactly what we are talking about here?

Leo Dutrisac

I was accused of stalking this person and I guess she has some kind of a sexual harassment case
on me, and I don‟t even talk or speak to this person if I can help myself. As far as I know I don‟t
even remember when the last time I had talked to this person at all. She is accusing me of
swearing at her…
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                               Page 30

Alderman Deane

Point of Order – I don‟t think that this conversation is appropriate for this committee to be listening
to. I think there is .. Mr. Chairman I understand his frustrations with the way people are parking
and I think that is an enforcement issue that has to be dealt with and I think the Ward Alderman
should be made aware of the issues that are going on over there, and perhaps we can help him
with some legislation, but the other matters that are being discussed …

Chairman Dion

No names were mentioned though Alderman Deane.

Alderman Deane

I just don‟t think it is appropriate for us to be having this conversation in this venue. I think this is
the Infrastructure Committee. Those are items that can be taken up with the Police Department
or his attorney or whatever, but I don‟t think it should be discussed here at this meeting. Thank
you.

Alderman Plamondon

I think we understand the point. I myself am very familiar with Van Buren. If I might ask the
resident from what I see from the pictures it looks like the problem is vehicles parked on the
opposite side of the road. Is that the case?

Leo Dutrisac

Yes. I can‟t get out of my driveway.

Alderman Plamondon

I understand, and I know city law. The other thing is I can‟t tell from the pictures does the
apartment building across the street do they have a driveway at all? That is just for conversation
sake it really has no bearings on the conversation, but do they have a driveway or not – so they
are forced to be on the street?

Leo Dutrisac

They have a driveway for one vehicle.

Alderman Plamondon

I am sure you looked it up – city law is 3 feet from the entrance of your driveway on the opposite
side of the road to impede entrance or exit so based on that you are correct. Van Buren is an
extremely narrow road – originally a carriage road. The pictures are pretty evident – I can see the
problem. I think maybe discussing with the Ward Alderman – the only thing I can think of would
be – what we have seen in inner city issues where I represent downtown – some solutions would
be maybe a 15 minute parking, maybe a no parking, but most times the solution that is most
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                           Page 31

amicable to the neighborhood – let‟s face it ultimately we all want to get along – would be
something along the lines of maybe a 20 or 30 minute parking over there. This would at least
allow them the opportunity to park, unload groceries, bring the kids in the house, and then move
the vehicle. That would be one suggestion, but I think we would need to discuss it with the Ward
Alderman. Thank you Mr. Chair.

Alderman Deane

I met with Alderman Cardin and the Traffic Department down on Van Buren Street, and we know
of the issues over there. We did get ahold of the gas company about trying to acquire a piece of
property down there that can help deal with this because the problems especially in the wintertime
when there is snow on the street and there are sidewalks and the houses are right on top of the
sidewalks. You walk out and you can see in these pictures you walk out and take that last step
down and you are on the sidewalk. When it is trash day the trash truck can‟t get down there to get
the trash. When people are parking on the streets or as the citizen has had problems with people
blocking his driveway you have to look back and look at these properties when they were built and
they weren‟t built for the most part as multi-family – that is what they are now. They don‟t have
adequate parking. That on street parking becomes a premium. It is unfortunate there are victims
to the problems with the parking associated with the buildings that are currently there. We did
look at maybe Sue can jog her memory a little bit – we did contact gas service about getting that
piece of property down in the back. They wouldn‟t budget on it. It is not like the problem hasn‟t
been looked at. It sounds to me like if he has an enforcement issue – this is more of an
enforcement issue. The road is that narrow and once we have snowfall it is even worse.

Chairman Dion

Just to bring this to a conclusion, I would suggest that the police Lieutenant get together with Mr.
Dutrisac, and see if he can come to some kind of an understanding of what you can do to help him
out.

Fred Nichols

Well my …

Chairman Dion

Away from these Chambers.

Fred Nichols

But this is going to be an ongoing problem that ain‟t going to be solved until something is done
with the parking there. That street is way too small for parking on either side. You go down that
and you can‟t turn around on the street. In the wintertime you can‟t get one vehicle. We have
responded down there for calls and we can‟t get down the street.

Chairman Dion

Leo you have a final statement before you go along – we have a lot of other business.
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                            Page 32


Leo Dutrisac

If anything I would appreciate a sign like this Alderman suggested of no parking. That would help
me out completely because this is what I have been asking for since December. I even have a
hard time myself personally for driving up and down the street also. Even during this past summer
when they parked all 4 of their vehicles across from my driveway and I didn‟t know that there was
an ordinance for them blocking my driveway because I was having a real tight time pulling my car
in. I had the front end of my car worked on. It would be making this weird sound in the front. I
would go have it worked on. A month of two later I would get this weird sound in my car and then
have to say – in the summer time I had a real hard time because these people were opening up
their car doors and standing out in the street trying to tell me to go around them. It was like I was
sitting there saying there is something that has to be done. I went down and found out that they
were blocking my driveway, and I went around to talk to everybody I possibly could to try and see
if I could have a sign put out there so that this neighbor of mine wouldn‟t be able to say that I am
talking to her, saying something to her, calling the police to my door, have friendly talks for no
reason. I wanted to make sure that none of this was going to be done, and since the no parking
sign wasn‟t put out, and I called to have her vehicle ticketed and she was told that she was
blocking before I started having the vehicles ticketed. The next thing I knew I had tremendously
officers tremendously knocking on my door because this person didn‟t like that her vehicles were
being ticketed in front of my driveway.

Chairman Dion

Leo here is what I suggest you do exactly what some of the Aldermen have already said – get
ahold of your Ward Alderman – if you can‟t get ahold of your Ward Alderman get ahold of an
Alderman-at-Large who can file the legislation and try to take care of your problem. That is all I
can suggest to you.

Leo Dutrisac

That would be real great for me.

Chairman Dion

I am sure the Lieutenant will pass the word along and see if we can take care of that problem over
there. When you have a problem and somebody is blocking your driveway don‟t hesitate to call
the police department is that correct Lieutenant?

Fred Nichols

Right. We have done that numerous times.
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                           Page 33

Alderman Plamondon

One final suggestion, maybe you would want to put legislation through not allowing any parking
on Van Buren because as the Lieutenant stated this is going to be an ongoing problem no matter
what. That alleyway is extremely narrow. There is no way to get any type of emergency
equipment down there – cruisers, especially a fire truck. In the event of an emergency Nashua
Fire Rescue would have to set up apparatus on Bridge Street and run the hoses down. It is that
narrow. That also would serve to be a major wakeup call to those in the neighborhood to get
along and park where you can park.

Chairman Dion

Okay Leo thank you very much.

Leo Dutrisac

Thank you. I appreciate you listening to me.

Chairman Dion

You are welcome. That is what we are here for.

Leo Dutrisac

If I have any more problems I will let you know.

MOTION BY ALDERMAN JOHNSON TO TAKE FROM THE TABLE O-05-83
MOTION CARRIED

O-05-83
    Endorser: Alderman-at-Large Paula I. Johnson
    BROADENING EMERGENCY LANE VIOLATIONS AND INCREASING AND POSTING
    THE RELATED FINE

Alderman Johnson

This is my next piece of legislation – broadening the emergency lane violations and increasing
and posting of the related fine. Again, I am asking for the fine to go up to $200 on this from $100
because again you go down to the mall and all you do is see everybody park in these fire lanes.
You won‟t be able to get emergency apparatus in the fire lanes if people – they park the car so
they can run in and do grocery shopping, they park their cars to run in and drop off a video, either
somebody is sitting in the vehicle or they are not sitting in the vehicle.

Chairman Dion

Deputy Chief Morrissey would you join us please?

Alderman Johnson
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                             Page 34


That is what my intent is – the fire lanes. Again you are talking about even condominiums, fire
lanes at schools where officials aren‟t supposed to park around the circle like at Elm Street and at
the High School. A fire lane is a fire lane. That is it. There shouldn‟t be anything to say on this
one.

Alderman Plamondon

As I stated earlier I sponsored legislation increasing it to $100 and it passed. I think $100 is a
substantial fine. I think it is a fine that would be enforced all the way through the judicial system.
Particularly where towing is involved at $200 and more I think a $200 fine is excessive, but what I
would in looking at the legislation again, what I would suggest is a good idea is if the fine is not
paid within 7 days it increases another $50. A $100 fine if we don‟t get the $100 within 7 days it is
now $150.00. I think that is a substantial punishment. There is a double wakeup call. That would
be my suggestion. I won‟t make any amendments now pending more debate and conversation.
Thank you.

Alderman Johnson

Around the 15th of March down at the south end of town at the laundry mat I remember that day by
Market Basket, there was a fire in the laundry mat, big fire in the laundry mat – flames coming out.
Two weeks later after my Mother passed away I had to go down and get boxes at the liquor store.
Everybody was parked in that fire lane. I was saying to myself if everybody was parked in that fire
lane that day not only would the laundry mat have gone probably the state liquor store that they
get revenue on that we need for the state, would have been gone also. They are parking there.
How far is it to walk across the street to where the designated parking is? It is not very far at all.
People just refuse to do that. You have to say if people were parked there that day there wouldn‟t
have been a laundry mat there. The firemen were able to get in there to put out the fire. If there
were people there I am sure their cars were told to leave very quickly. It is just again courtesy.
This is really a top priority. It is a fire lane. Again, the people who park there if their loved ones
were in the store and it caught fire they would be the first one to scream why couldn‟t you go in
there and help my family member out, but your car is there. You could say you want to drop it
down to $100 and then a $50 fine on top of it if they don‟t pay it in 7 days and then we talk again
about people who don‟t pay their fines. Well I think it is going to be the same people who don‟t pay
their fines no matter what price it is at. Again it is called common courtesy. Thank you.

Alderman Lozeau

I would like to have clarification again from the Lieutenant. Would you normally ticket somebody
parked in the fire lane if there is somebody inside the car behind the driver‟s seat?

Fred Nichols

No we ask them to move. However, if they refuse to move we have done it before with a ticket.

Alderman Lozeau

Absolutely. That is it. Thank you.
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                              Page 35


Chairman Dion

Deputy Chief Morrissey you are here this evening because of this legislation. I am sure you
probably have some input.

Brian Morrissey

Thank you Mr. Chairman. Emergency lanes are provided so that we have the necessary access
into the developments, small plazas, schools, commercial areas, residential complexes, and they
limit or eliminate unnecessary delays by emergency service personnel to get in there; fire, police,
ambulance. The access lanes are usually established by stipulation when the site is developed
and they tend to make a more effective operation for us in an emergency situation. Our friends at
the police department they are now settled with the enforcement end of it and they do a pretty
good job. Everybody can say around Christmas time or some certain times of the year it gets
pretty tight, but they do a pretty effective job at keeping those lanes clear. I am not an expert on
fine assessment, but I think that the price that is paid if those lanes are blocked at any point in time
and we can‟t get in there could be substantially higher than the $100 fine that is going to be levied
against the offender.

Alderman Plamondon

I really think that these fines – anything over $100 is a deterrent if people know about it. I think
where we are stumbling is people forget, they don‟t care. A few years ago through the City
Treasurer‟s Office I had created on city letterhead a one page common non-moving violations, on
the back page were some fines on moving violations and some other common city laws as far as
housing and such. That went out with everybody‟s registration. It was available in Spanish at the
registration office. For that year that we did it I heard nothing but compliments – people “I had no
idea it was $100 for a fire lane, I had no idea at that time it was $100 for handicapped.” I think that
education piece – I would like to see us spend some money in that area to notify and keep a
reminder in everybody‟s – in front of everybody on an annual basis. This also helps the police
department and it helps the Judges. If anybody challenges our city ordinances in court the
prosecuting attorney or officer can say did you register in Nashua, - yes – did you get city
letterhead, did you read it? That proves we have gone above and beyond not just in posting our
NROs, but in reminding people what some of these fines are.

I really do think that $100 with a $50 additional after 7 days – I think that serves the purpose. I
think $200 is too much I really do considering that at $200 they can be towed. Technically if this
were to pass they could get the $200 ticket and towed at the same time because they are in
arrears. There is no timeframe as to when they are late on this. At least if we put something in
there that says after 7 days it his an additional fine then they could be towed right away. I just
think we really do need to have more of an educational piece in reminding people.

The other thing I wanted to add in closing is I had called the Nashua Police many times, we all
have cell phones – you see someone in the fire lane, you call the P.D. and ask for parking
enforcement to come down there and enforce it or a handicap. I do it all the time because I know
that is why we created parking enforcement, and I know when these calls go in it is top priority for
them. It is not a top priority for our uniforms because they are dealing with everything else going
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                              Page 36

on in the city. I think that is another piece of the education that has to go out. That is the mindset
with crimewatch. We the citizens of this city are the eyes and ears for the police department. You
see individuals blocking access for fire lane or taking over handicapped spots call the P.D. Ask
for parking enforcement to come down there and address it, and it will be addressed. I guarantee
when they come out and they get that $100 or $150 ticket that is deterrence. Thank you.

Alderman Johnson

I don‟t want to belabor this point very much, but you know if people are where they shouldn‟t be
then they deserve to get their car towed.

Alderman Deane

I understand everybody‟s frustrations, but I think Alderman Plamondon brought it up – we have a
certain amount of labor associated with parking enforcement that does a fairly good job and they
focus on different areas. Unfortunately people park in fire lanes. They always have, they always
will. Most of them have somebody sitting in the car. A cruiser or whatever will pull up and the
people will move and then the cruiser leaves. I think quite frankly the uniformed officers have
better things to be doing with their time, and that is more of a traffic enforcement department
issue, but it is not going to change. You can raise the fine up to o$200 – they can bring the
cruisers through and clean the thing out and then they can get up to the end of the street and
more people will replace the ones that had just left. Whether it is right or not, and I know it is not
right – increasing the fine isn‟t going to prohibit people from sitting and idling in those fire lanes.
They are going to continue to do it. If the fine is $1,000 they are going to continue to do it. They
will get the one shot with the cruiser or parking enforcement and then the people will move on.
Unfortunately there is not enough time in the day and there is not enough manpower to enforce
every single ordinance that is on the books.

I do realize fire lanes are important and they should be left open and they are there for a reason,
but for the regular flow of police work or traffic enforcement work I think leaving it the way it is
suffices and if someone parks and get out of their car and go and do whatever they are doing –
they leave their car unattended in a fire lane even though it is not right to do – those are the people
that they are going to bag because the vehicles are going to be unoccupied. The ones with the
people in them they will see the police officer or traffic enforcement and they will move it and that
will be the end of it. I think it should be left at $100. Thank you.

Alderman Plamondon

To continue on all of the points that we are discussing, this is exactly why I and I believe Alderman
Lozeau, have been pushing for an additional parking enforcement particularly on first shift –
parking enforcement specialist. We have met resistance. I think it is because of
misunderstanding, but the intent was an additional parking enforcement specialist to supplement
what we currently have. Right now the two we have on days split the city; one north of the Nashua
and one south. In our conversations, correct me if I am wrong, in our debates on this, for example
the one south of the Nashua would typically hit the south end of the city like Pheasant Lane twice
in a shift. In my mind that is not enough. If we had another parking enforcement specialist that
would say be designated for downtown that would free up the other two to handle the other parts
of the city with greater frequency. That has been my argument all along. No matter what it all
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                           Page 37

comes down to enforcement. There are 350 miles of streets in this city, two parking enforcement
on first and one on second to blanket everywhere. Throw in problems with parking that we have
had at Nashua High North, B.G., and on and on and on .. we just don‟t have the manpower to
address all of these fire lanes, fire hydrants, blocking driveways.

For the life of me I don‟t understand the debate on not bringing in an additional parking
enforcement specialist. I think we should have two more; an initial one on first so three and two on
second, which is the busiest shift. It is self funding. It has a greater impact on enforcing the
existing non-moving violations that we have. I think additional PDs in conjunction with an
education program reminding people of our fines and that we are serious about it – I think that is
the greatest deterrence. Thank you.

Chairman Dion

We are still in discussion on 05-83.

MOTION BY ALDERMAN JOHNSON TO HOLD IN COMMITTEE
MOTION CARRIED

Chairman Dion

Is there anything else in held that anyone would like to take off the table?

HELD IN COMMITTEE

Petitions

Petition to Release and Discharge from all Public Servitude a Dedicated Way on Pope Circle

Petition for Street Acceptance: Federal Hill Road
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                         Page 38

Resolutions

R-05-205
    Endorsers: Alderman Robert A. Dion
               Alderman David D. Lozeau
               Alderman-at-Large Paula I. Johnson
               Alderman-at-Large David Rootovich
    DIRECTING THE MAYOR’S OFFICE AND THE PURCHASING MANAGER TO
    PREPARE DOCUMENTS AND MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE BOARD
    OF ALDERMEN WITH RESPECT TO COMPETITIVE PROPOSALS FOR THE
    PRIVATIZING OF SOLID WASTE COLLECTION AND DISPOSAL FOR THE
    SOLID WASTE FUNCTIONS

Ordinances

O-04-54
    Endorsers: Alderman Robert A. Dion
               Alderman David D. Lozeau
               Alderman-at-Large Paula I. Johnson
               Alderman-at-Large David Rootovich
    AMENDING THE REGULATION OF USE OF SKATEBOARDS, ROLLERBLADES
    AND OTHER SIMILAR DEVICES

O-05-71
    Endorsers: Alderman David D. Lozeau
               Alderman-at-Large David W. Deane
    CREATING A NO PARKING ZONE ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF FRENCH STREET

DISCUSSION

Alderman Deane

I would like to hear from Deputy Chief Morrissey. At our last meeting and at our Nashua Fire
Rescue Joint Fire Commissioner Joint one Alderman until a later date, construction team – did talk
to Chief Morrissey about the process in which I thought the renovation and/or improvement work
that had to be approved by the Infrastructure Committee was to proceed. Right now I believe he is
starting to develop some sort of policy under which they are going to operate. They are doing
renovation work. It is going to be brought to the Infrastructure Committee so that we understand
what they are doing. We will get an overview of their plans, and then when the RFPs go out for the
work and they get brought back to the Finance Committee for approval and then the payment has to
be authorized through this committee, we will understand what is going on. The process I thought
was a little bit backwards. The Chief is here to give us an update on something that they are
proposing to do. Thank you.
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                                Page 39

Brian Morrissey

Thank you Mr. Chairman. The process as it has gone as all of you are well aware for the past
several years is we develop an RFP so to speak and we go out seeking bids for improvements
around the fire stations whether it be roofs or HVAC items, general facility maintenance items.
Generally they have gone to Finance, they get approved, and then we come back to the
Infrastructure Committee to get the individual invoices approved through the committee. There was
some discussion at your April 27th meeting about maybe adjusting that process somewhat. I
thought tonight might be a good time to bring you up to speed on another project that we will be
going out to the street on to replace a couple of boilers that the fire station at Amherst Street and at
Conant Road. If you would like I can give you some information about those projects that are
currently pending.

As an informational item the Fire Commission and the Fire Chief are recommending the
replacement of the heating systems, the boilers, at both the Conant Road and the Amherst Street
stations. The heating system at Conant Road is original. It was installed at construction in 1971.
The proposal we are putting on the street is for replacement of the boiler below the circulators so the
rest of the heating system is fairly sound, but the boiler is about 35 years old and it is time to replace
it. The second system that we are looking to replace is at Amherst Street. It is a similar vintage
system installed around 1970. It has been slated for replacement as part of the multi-phase
renovations that have taken place at Amherst Street over the past several years. That project goes
a little more in depth where our proposal is to convert from oil to natural gas. We may require some
other system upgrades to the heating plant in that building other than just replacing the boiler. We
have some other recommendations that we will be looking at when we bring in some project
professionals to look at the scope of the project.

Alderman Deane

I think this is great. My one question – the oil tank for Amherst Street is that above ground or below
ground?

Brian Morrissey

There are two 275-gallon tanks in the basement.

Alderman Deane

Thank you.

Chairman Dion

Since we are in the discussion stage, I promised a gentleman who called me this evening with a
complaint that I would introduce it to the Police Department this evening. Lieutenant if you want to
make a note of this. This gentleman, I won‟t reveal his name, but he lives on Baldwin Street. He
is complaining about noisy mufflers, cars that have metal hanging down to the street level
creating a horrible sound, racing down Baldwin Street where the bridge is – up the street. They
reach the intersection of Amherst Street, they jump the traffic light – there was a serious accident
there according to what he told me on the phone just recently. It seems as though we have a
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                              Page 40

problem there. I was wondering if you could pass the word along and see if we could take care of
the situation.

Fred Nichols

I will. Any specific time that it is more of a problem than others?

Chairman Dion

No he didn‟t mention any time he just said it has been an ongoing problem for a while now and
that he has called a few people. He called me this evening and asked me if I would bring it to your
attention.

Fred Nichols

I will give it special attention in that area.

Chairman Dion

Thank you.

Alderman Plamondon

On that point, I know exactly who you are speaking about. I know the individual very well. It has
been an ongoing issue for years. I have made dozens and dozens of phone calls. I would say
probably 40+ phone calls on Baldwin Street in this issue and have looked over the years on a way
for the noise, speeding vehicles – currently I am waiting to hear back from either Chief Hefferan or
Chief Connolly. As I brought up at the last Infrastructure meeting we have received copies of
what Manchester is doing. Right now police administration is looking to see what we can do, and
come up with some kind of legislation. Right now the ball is in their court, and I am waiting to hear
back from the P.D. and Corporation Counsel to see if we can draft some legislation. This is an
ongoing issue, and I can tell you the hours – it is full rush hour. The morning hours 7-9:00 a.m.,
evening starting around 3:30 p.m. to about 6:30 p.m.

Chairman Dion

What ward is that?

Alderman Plamondon

That is Ward 4. I am very familiar with it. It is a nasty issue. That bridge just isn‟t safe. The other
issue too is that bridge. Posted weight limit is I think 5 tons maybe – it is very low. Dump trucks
going over it well in excess of the tonnage. If we could have periodic visibility out in that area and
just monitor the vehicles during those rush hours it would greatly help. We have had the smart
trailer out there in the past years and we have had I call it the covert radar unit. You called it
something else. I call it covert because you don‟t know it is there.

Fred Nichols
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                                  Page 41


I think it is the discreet radar.

Alderman Plamondon

Discreet – thank you. My other point while we are under discussion – I have been calls from
residents who live along the Nashua Heritage Rail Trail about increased issues with individuals
hanging out, drinking, drug use, and they are pushing for the bicycle patrols. I have told them that it
is patrolled by bicycles, but it is as money becomes available and trained officers. I don‟t know
where we are at and how many officers we have trained on bike, but if you could bring forward to the
P.D. as soon as possible if we could get bike patrols on the Nashua Heritage Rail Trail and Mine
Falls it would be greatly appreciated. The problems are already – I could talk to you in more detail.
We have some areas along the Nashua River where we have large groups of homeless and
partying going on and they are having campfires at night right in full public view on the Nashua River
on the bend right near the millyard. If you are going in the millyard you look left at that hill, that whole
top of the hill and all the way down to the canal it is loaded and it is worse than ever. They are back
with a vengeance.

Fred Nichols

We had somebody complain about it the other day.

Alderman Plamondon

 I have made some calls on it and I know we have some units watching it, but that is a dangerous
situation waiting to explode because what is going on there on a scale of 9-10 we have a solid 9
going on there. I won‟t belabor any more issues. I could go on, but those are some of the hot
button issues right now. Thank you.

Alderman Johnson

Thank you Mr. Chairman. I spoke to the same gentleman too. I think it usually goes on until the
later part of the evening past even supper. I think it is at least up to 11:00 p.m. at night with the
motorcycles going across and the cars on Baldwin Street. I know he has complained for many
years of the noise and we have all tried to help him. There was legislation in Concord. There are
so many piece of legislation that goes through in Concord. We also had legislation regarding
motorcycles and the exhaust and how loud it can be so we might want to double check and see if
that has gone through.

Fred Nichols

At least something has gone through because we have equipment to go ahead and check that
now.
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                            Page 42

Alderman Johnson

I know we have been putting things through in Concord. I spoke to him this evening too and I told
him I would bring it up in the committee.

Chairman Dion

I guess that makes two of us. He wanted to make sure he got his point across.

Alderman Plamondon

He is not calling me anymore. I am not feeling loved.

Alderman Johnson

Hey that is life.

Chairman Dion

Well you are just the Alderman then Marc.

Alderman Deane

We have had discussions in the past on the stop signs on Tolles and Girard Avenue. I spoke with
Mr. Burgess and he is here and we have – Sue has brought the findings of that intersection. I
would like to ask the committee if it is all right that Mr. Burgess come up for a moment so that we
can reveal to Mr. Burgess the findings that the Traffic Department has for him.

Chairman Dion

Yes. I was going to call on Mr. Burgess. Also there is a discussion I want the committee to have
to listen to Paul Newman pertaining to bus stations.

Bob Burgess, 32 Bates Drive

Listening to this meeting tonight – maybe we can get the Chief to address a few figures for us
here tonight. As a taxpayer I am deeply concerned now with all of this boiler replacement. I think
too many of these buildings in town all of a sudden it is money, money, money. What is it going to
cost to renovate these fire stations? We went through this on Library Hill where we found out now
the money going in there is over $1 million. I think it would enlighten the taxpayer to know just how
much money we are pouring into some of these buildings.

Brian Morrissey

We have not put the proposal out yet so we don‟t have any bids back on the replacement costs.

Bob Burgess
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                           Page 43

The taxpayers can figure on – we see all of these projects coming in..

Alderman Lozeau

Point of Order – this isn‟t the Budget Committee. He was brought to the table for discussion on a
specific subject, and I would like to get to that subject. Thank you.

Bob Burgess

We can get to the specific subjects, but I think most of these committees let the taxpayers come
up and voice their questions. This was really brought up in this committee tonight, but we will
avoid it. Okay let‟s get back to the original subject since we don‟t want to talk what you people
have been addressing tonight.

This started my French Hill these four way stop signs originated on 9-22-03. I have been waiting
for two years, eight months to find out the results of the study on this one stop sign. Mr. Chairman
I think it is terrible that we can‟t address things that were brought up at this committee by
members of this committee, and so be it, but we will just address this one here. I would appreciate
the results from the Traffic Department on this issue.

Susan Klasen

The Traffic Department recently did counts and reviewed the accident data from the Tolles and
Girard intersection. The counts were taken on last Tuesday from 7:00 – 9:00 during the a.m. and
p.m. – two hour time periods during the a.m. and two hours during the p.m. to determine the peak
hour. I do have the Warrant analysis here if anyone would like to review it. The all way stop is not
warranted at that location.

Chairman Dion

In other words – this is Girard Avenue?

Susan Klasen

Tolles and Girard yes.

Chairman Dion

So then your recommendation would be to remove the four way stop sign?

Susan Klasen

Well the Traffic Department we try to install signs as we talked in the past on Warrants and
specific guidelines, and we cannot support something that … tape ended …

Alderman Deane
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                           Page 44

It is a three way stop. I had spoken with Susan that perhaps leaving the stop sign at Girard
Avenue and removing the one on the neighborhood of Tolles is what should be done.

Chairman Dion

Bob how do you feel about that one?

Bob Burgess

I am really in favor of this, but my main concern from day one three years ago was these through
streets – I will have to be satisfied with this one, but you can take Courtland Street and Stark and
all of these other ones – I think if she ever took a study of those. I know she is pretty busy, that
they wouldn‟t meet the warrants. The amount of traffic going down Courtland Street and Tolles
Street far exceed these side streets and really and truly I think the ones on Courtland Street
should take a ride too, but I am happy that it took 2 years and 8 months, but we took care of one
sign in the city hopefully.

The other issues Chairman Dion I will bring up at the Aldermanic meeting. Apparently even
though you guys – you people, the girls too here, discussed them, we can‟t address these issues.
I will be sure to bring them up at the next Aldermanic meeting – realize that we can only speak so
much at some of these committees even though some of these things were addressed. I
appreciate all you did. Sue thanks a lot for taking that study. I know it was a hard thing. I hated
to be a pain in the rear end. Like I say the papers are that thick at home on these stop signs.
Thanks a lot.

Chairman Dion

The question in my mind is Alderman Deane are you the one that will sponsor the legislation on
this?

Alderman Deane

I am going to speak with the Ward 3 Alderman and then move forward.

Chairman Dion

I appreciate that.

Susan Klasen

If I may say something – I just completed this Warrant analysis this afternoon and I did want to
speak to Alderman Gage. He had asked that I speak with him and I didn‟t get a chance to call him
before tonight‟s meeting because I just finished this.

I have had three different residents from this area call me and I just wanted to bring that to your
attention. A few meetings ago when Mr. Burgess was here I wasn‟t here and he was talking about
removing these stop signs and some residents the next day I received the calls that they were
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                              Page 45

confused trying to figure out what was going on because this is a traffic calming neighborhood. I
told them that I would speak to Alderman Gage. I just wanted to let you know.

Alderman Deane

If Sue wants to dig in, and I drove into the web site as well as I believe Mr. Burgess has – it clearly
states on the web site that stop signs are not to be used as a form of traffic calming. I believe
probably some of the phone calls you got were from people not in the Tolles and Girard area, but
down by Wood Street and up in through that part of the …

Susan Klasen

I received one call from a resident that is on Tolles Street a few houses north of Girard and then
the two other residents were further up.

Alderman Plamondon

Just as a reminder, the Warrants are nationally recognized recommendations. They are not law.
It is the purview of this committee to do what is in the public safety and public interest. I just don‟t
want the public to get the misunderstanding – we do follow the Warrants. They are our guideline
and we do adhere to them, however, there will be exceptions. Those exceptions have to be – they
have to go through the gauntlet. This committee can be a formidable gauntlet. Thank you.

Alderman Lozeau

I like when we have the Chief here to hopefully get some time of a timetable on when East Hollis
Street is going to be repaired and those Jersey barriers that have been up there for what seems
like 30 years are going to be removed – if there is any way we can put a priority on that? Since he
has the Planning Board‟s approval now and I understand we are moving forward.

Brian Morrissey

The exact time schedule for the project has not been established, but we are going to be doing
some demo on the site in the next several weeks, and hopefully we will be actually starting
construction around the first full week in July.

Alderman Lozeau

Thank you.

Brian Morrissey

It should be about a 10-month project once it gets underway.

Alderman Lozeau

Can we get the Jersey barriers down by winter?
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                              Page 46

Brian Morrissey

I can check the schedule.

Alderman Lozeau

Thank you.

Alderman Deane

I wanted to bring up the fire station project as well. We have met everybody‟s schedule and we
have been meeting every other Wednesday at 3:30 p.m. Alderman Plamondon due to his work
commitments is unable to attend, and we tried – we went around the room and tried to see if we
could put the meetings at a different day or different time, and it is just – the timeframe that we had
seemed to work for the majority so …

The other problem I have is I would think that perhaps maybe Alderman Plamondon would want to
relinquish his part in this as a member, as part of the team, and perhaps pass it on to Alderman
Lozeau who had an interest or maybe yourself for that matter Alderman Dion so that we had two
representatives from the Board of Aldermen there because it is me and them. I think it would be
better if we had two members of the Board there. If Alderman Plamondon didn‟t have an issue
with it I think it would be beneficial to all.

Chairman Dion

Have you got an issue Alderman Plamondon?

Alderman Plamondon

No. In fact when I volunteered for it I stated unless someone else wanted to. When I volunteered
for it I did state it also depends on when they intended to meet. At that time they didn‟t know. At
3:30 p.m. I am working. That has priority.

Chairman Dion

Alderman Lozeau would you be willing to serve?

Alderman Lozeau

They serve the best coffee in Nashua at Lake Street Fire Station. Every opportunity that I have I
stop in there for that cup of coffee.

Chairman Dion

Consider it done.

Alderman Lozeau
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                           Page 47

Thank you sir.

Chairman Dion

I want to bring up a conversation that I had with Paul Newman today. I think it is for informational
purposes – I think the committee should be aware of what is going on. We all know that we are
cramped for room here at City Hall and we have been looking at a couple of pieces of property. I
will ask Paul to elaborate, but just to give you an overview; he did tell me that the Burke Street
property has been leased out – that is out of the picture now. He gave me an overview of what
could be done with the Riverside property – that his department was interested in it. Paul please
inform the committee of what you and I discussed.

Paul Newman

When you met as the Committee of the Whole back in March I believe it was you were given a
range of scenarios for dealing with city space needs. Two of those incorporated the space needs
for city bus transit. Of course as you know we rent a building and have for many years. It would
suit the city to have its own facility for a variety reasons. Both the Burke Street property and the
Riverside Street properties have potential to accommodate the transit operations as well as other
city needs. I am here tonight to tell you that now that Burke Street has passed that we would very
much like to pursue Riverside Street to its conclusion as to whether it might be in the interest of
the city to acquire and develop that. While it is just me here tonight this most obviously was
started I believe the police department who presented it as a capital improvement program – it
may have been the first year, I am not sure it was a first year to purchase this to alleviate their
future expansion needs because indeed otherwise they are landlocked.

Chairman Dion

The Police Department showed an interest in that property Paul from what I can gather for parking
purposes because they are pretty cramped right now for parking and also part of the building for
their record keeping. I guess there is so much space being used in the police department right
now they would like to get that stuff out of there to give them more room at the police station and
get their records and stuff inside the basement or whatever it may be in that building. Is that
correct Lieutenant?

Fred Nichols

I don‟t know if the – what I have seen for the records I think it is pretty much at max right now so
that would be yes.

Paul Newman

As I said this came to my attention through the capital improvement process. As I looked at it it is
a 4-acre parcel with an existing building that the principle need for the police at least in the
medium term was to alleviate parking and there might potentially be another municipal use of it.
Of course, I think transit – that is my hat. I approached Captain Hayes and ultimately he
discussed it with the Chief and they said yes we would certainly be glad to go into partnership with
transit because that way with the transit funding it is 80% federally and you could minimize the
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                             Page 48

amount of the city‟s investment to tie down for this piece of land for the city‟s resources and
alleviate them from having to split off operations or storage or whatever to different parts of the
city down the road. We have met a couple of times on that and continue to I think realize that this
could be a very good partnership and something that we definitely should present to you all for
your consideration.

In order to do that the next step would be for a plan of action would be to conduct a feasibility
study to have architectural engineering services to look at the existing building principally to
determine what sort of renovation needs exist, how it would accommodate our spaces and so
forth of which a small portion would be the police storage of records and their parking.

The building that exists now..

Chairman Dion

Did you mention Paul just to bud in for a second; didn‟t you mention that there was enough room
in that building for the Board of Public Works offices?

Paul Newman

There is a 25,000 sq. ft. footprint. Some of you have been through the building and also know
there is a mezzanine which has somewhat nominal negligible use. The police department would
like 5,000 sq. ft. for their storage needs. Transit needs would be about 7,000 sq. ft. within that
existing building so there is approximately ½ the building that might be diverted to other uses.

Certainly the intent would be to determine if there is some other useful city purpose that the rest of
that could be devoted to. I talked initially to Rick Seymour and he and I and part of the police
when we make the plan to visit we will again go through the building to see whether all three
needs could be accommodated within that. That would of course be for the space that is currently
rented at 165 Ledge Street for DPW administration and engineering. As I understand it that lease
is up in September.

Obviously none of this most likely would happen in that timeframe, but it could be something that
could happen not too long after that. So you have the combination of a substantial part of it being
paid for with 80% federal funds for the transit end of it, the police department‟s long term needs as
far as existing problem there being landlocked, and the additional possibility of accommodating
the offices of Public Works administration, which would also put them close to the Street
Department.

Chairman Dion

So we are talking here of a $25,000 savings the city would have as far as your parking garage
now – your parking facility because it is costing the City of Nashua $25,000.

Paul Newman

That plus the inefficient energy use of the building.
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                          Page 49

Chairman Dion

Plus if we put the division of the Public Works and engineering there we would save $65,000 -
$70,000 in the rent we are paying now at Ledge Street. Right then and there we are talking about
$100,000 in rent. Am I correct?

Paul Newman

I believe so.

Chairman Dion

Go ahead. Have you got some more to present? Are you waiting for questions?

Paul Newman

I don‟t know how well everybody knew that Burke Street and the prospect that is pretty much off
the table. This property is certainly for transit and I believe for Public Works as well as well
located geographically central to the city. I just happen to be here tonight because of that other
business on bus stops. I am sure that the other departments should be represented as well as
this moves along. If there is anything I could pass back to those of us who are working on this as
far as what you would like to understand about the proposal that would be helpful to us.

Alderman Johnson

The feasibility study – how is that going to be paid for?

Paul Newman

We do have funds available in our transit budget that were appropriated for the purpose of
developing a bus garage. About half of those funds still remain. It was originally $40,000. The
police department has indicated, well I asked them if they could participate in any way financially
and they said they could up to say $1,000. Public Works I only had a very initial discussion with
Rick Seymour about it and he said he would look to see whether they might be able to participate
financially. The estimated cost is under $10,000. The transit part of it would again be paid for
80% federal/20% city.

Alderman Johnson

Is that going to be tapping into your contingency money for the 80%?

Paul Newman

No actually it is a specific line item for the bus garage.

Alderman Johnson

The 20% that we need to pay do you know how we will pay for that – I guess through a bond?
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                              Page 50


Paul Newman

That would be for the Alderman development if it went to that. It was proposed as a bond issue for
the local share of the bus garage that is correct. There are some existing monies that are
appropriated in the Community Development Block Grant toward the bus garage as local share.
The State is also considering appropriating a little over $400,000 this year for capital facilities for
public transit. It might be possible to acquire some of those funds also as local share.

Alderman Johnson

I was going through the list tonight of uncompleted projects and I noticed there was money that
you haven‟t used yet. We have – I saw in the paper that the Burke Street property was sold, but
it is great to say that we are going to save money because we are going to be moving them out of
renting and I agree with that, but on the other hand can we afford to float another bond because
remember this year was supposed to be the worse year and next year was supposed to get
better. We have been told next year could be worse than this year. I think we better have every
estimate because we were talking the other night about Pennichuck, what is the cost of
Pennichuck and I have asked for estimates now for 2006 into 2007 and we have already been told
that they don‟t have enough money for 2005. There is more money that has to come out and be
spent than we are being told because every time we turn around the three of us here that are on
the Budget Committee – every time we turn around we haven‟t even gone into the budget and
there have been changes through the Mayor‟s office – they are adding more or subtracting, but
mostly changes. We better be very careful on how much money we actually need on this.

Maybe we can get back the monies for the Cotton Bridge out there and all of the other bonding
that we have put out therein this city. If this is top priority go back and look at what we bonded last
year even a TIF bond and the Cotton Bridge and some other bonds that were floated because we
had to have it. It wasn‟t a priority, it wasn‟t a necessity, it was a wish that we had to have. Thank
you.

Alderman Lozeau

I think the last time we ran the numbers in comparison to what we pay for rents and what bond
payments would be to buy a facility I think the numbers were very favorable. As a matter of fact I
think they were extremely favorable. I would like to get on top of this and get this thing moving
before Riverside Drive is a thing of the past. As you know I liked Burke Street. I thought that
showed great promise for the future and for the bucks that they wanted for that.

Chairman Dion

I was disappointed to hear Burke Street was gone.

Alderman Lozeau

I was too. I didn‟t know until tonight. Just so you know the School Department is also renting
space for approximately $100,000 for the alternative school, and they did show an interest in that
building and they thought it would be a great marriage with the police department and
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                               Page 51

transportation for their administration building. However, there would be quite a bit of fit up costs.
I think some of the intentions were to move the alternative school to the admin. building and then
the admin. building into the Riverside, but there is another alternative for us. I think we should
move on getting out of rented space. It only makes sense. I am disappointed we haven‟t had the
time to prioritize that in strategic planning – that the budget kind of took over that strategic
planning. Thank you.

Alderman Plamondon

Alderman Lozeau made a good point – several that I agree with wholeheartedly. I won‟t repeat
them all, but we definitely are in a serious space crunch that we need to address. I agree we have
to get – we have to do our utmost to get out of rented space. I too am extremely disheartened that
we missed the boat on Burke Street. I think that is going to come back to bite us. I wasn‟t all
warm and fuzzy about the Riverside address, but having missed the boat on Burke Street I think
we need to move forward if we can go with a feasibility study on Riverside. Right out of the gate
I think that will need a roof. Probably get rid of those skylights as they all leak. That mexamine
that half of it is useless - I think there is potential there to expand the second floor out and over the
work area so we can get some more square footage to also help alleviate our space need crunch.
I think we should move forward and let‟s see what the potential of the structure is and what kind of
money is going to be needed.

We have to do something for the bus garage and we‟re fortunate right now that we are looking at
an 80% match as far as that is concerned. I think we need to move forward and quickly. We
missed the boat on Burke Street. Thank you.

Alderman Deane

I am all set thank you.

Chairman Dion

I just wanted to bring up during our conversation Paul and I this morning, Paul you mentioned a
cost of $4 million to build that garage. Does that include buying the building also or is this just the
construction of the garage?

Paul Newman

Just a very preliminary ballpark figure that I put together just to get a relative magnitude. It was
about a $4 million total investment with buying the property, renovating the existing building,
expanding the parking on site, building about a 14,000 sq. ft. bus maintenance storage facility.
The city‟s share of that would be about $.25 on the dollar.

Chairman Dion

In other words if what you say is the right figure, $4 million, the federal government would pay $3
million and the city would pay $1 million?
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                            Page 52

Paul Newman

Right.

Chairman Dion

The city would own it, we would have a garage, we would have the building – we wouldn‟t have to
pay $100,000 a year in rent. A million dollars equates and I figured it out in my mind this morning
after we spoke – you borrow $1 million in 20 years we pay back $2 million and the criteria is 10%
- 10% of a million is $100,000 – so we save $100,000 – it would cost us $100,000 a year it would
be a wash.

Paul Newman

Were refining those figures as we go forward particularly if DPW is part of that whole package.

Alderman Deane

Although I agree with most of the idea we have to look back at the city‟s track record on numbers
that they bring in for projected costs – they always seem to go up steadily when more things are
discovered or added on.

Chairman Dion

I did mention that to Paul exactly what you just said Alderman Deane.

Alderman Deane

Is that a butler building the garage that you are looking at – a steel butler building that you are
looking to put up?

Paul Newman

Yes. It would be a pre-engineered type building.

Alderman Deane

You all them and tell them what you want and they will design it and …

Paul Newman

You put out a performance specification and the various companies that offer pre-engineered
buildings will bid on those performance specs.

Alderman Deane

So the idea of building anything down at the Four Hills Landfill is a thing of the past?
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                            Page 53

Paul Newman

That of course was a joint venture contemplating building a building directly with Solid Waste,
which at this point seemed less likely.

Alderman Deane

How much money have we spent on design and whatnot on that facility?

Paul Newman

I do know for the transit part of it, it was about $11,000 of which 20% was city funds. I could check
that, but I believe that was about the amount.

Alderman Deane

I am just wondering how much money we have tied up for that project that will never happen that
we can free up and use for other purposes.

Paul Newman

Actually not in terms of transit purposes, we do have a floor plan, a building envelope design, a
preliminary schematic, which could be applicable at this site as well. It is still of use.

Alderman Deane

Great. Thank you Chairman Dion.

Chairman Dion

Paul is there anything you would like to add because I think from what I have heard from our
discussion it sounds like a good deal to me. I always have an ear for a good deal. This sounds
like a good deal. Like Alderman Deane said we want to know in writing exactly what we are
talking about here – feasibility study is what we have to have before us.

Paul Newman

I understand. Of course I am a resident of this city for many years myself – I consider all of your
various deliberations on how to try to solve these needs and do it efficiently – we will help in any
way we can, and if this might solve some of those needs.

Chairman Dion

Can you guarantee you will have a wash pit to be able to wash your buses there properly?

Paul Newman

Indeed. That is one of the things we lack at this point.
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                           Page 54


Chairman Dion

Why don‟t you tell the committee what you have to do now to wash your buses?

Paul Newman

The buses are basically washed in the middle of the storage area and the water is squeegee into
a floor drain. It is not too cost efficient. Generally a bus operation has a track type washer where
you drive in, you can recycle the water, energy efficiency – additionally we are kind of in a
warehouse manufacturing type space of about 12,000 sq. ft. where the buses are stored. That
space is also used for the maintenance so you have to heat that entire building volume for the
comfort of the people who work in there whereas in a building designed for the purpose you will
have a bus storage area that you would heat to no more than 50 degrees and then a separate
work maintenance area much smaller volume. That is the energy savings.

Chairman Dion

How many buses do you have on the fleet?

Paul Newman

Nineteen.

Alderman Deane

I have done some work in that building. I have replaced some of the ceiling hung modeen
heaters. It is an art of parking those buses in that building. I don‟t know how the guy gets out of
the bus to bring the next bus in when they parallel park them all.

Chairman Dion

That bad huh?

Alderman Deane

Yeah it is pretty tight. You can barely walk between the buses. Thank you.

Alderman Johnson

Don‟t you have money that you didn‟t spend last year?

Paul Newman

To buy a bus?

Alderman Johnson
Infrastructure – 5/11/05                                                         Page 55

A heavy duty one?

Paul Newman

Yes absolutely. It is going to be delivered around May 12th. It has been on the production line.
We don‟t have to pay for any of it until we actually take delivery.

ADJOURNMENT

MOTION BY ALDERMAN PLAMONDON TO ADJOURN
MOTION CARRIED

The meeting of the Committee on Infrastructure was adjourned at 9:35 p.m. p.m.


                                                    Alderman-at-Large Paula I. Johnson, Clerk
                                                    Committee on Infrastructure

				
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