Q&A
Distributed Energy Road Show Milwaukee, WI May 6, 2003 DE: National Perspective Q: A: Regarding your slide that demonstrates electricity losses – would it be interesting to compare this with DG examples? Maybe divide the efficiencies backwards? Great suggestion. That would be a good graphic and a good analysis for DOE to conduct.
Fuel Cells: Installation and Operation Q: A: Q: A: (From presenter) What codes do you use in Wisconsin? Uniform building code, with Wisconsin-specific modifications to it. What are the sizes and costs per kilowatt? This unit is 500 watts and costs $500. The tank of 40 cfm hydrogen costs about $10 per kilowatt-hour. For an application that requires extremely high reliability, the need for reliability outweighs the costs for power—in that case a fuel cell is worth the costs. Would it make sense to have a neighborhood running on a fuel cell? It would make sense to investigate it for a community, however diversification is key. Mixing the use of a fuel cell with photovoltaics and/or on site generators could help with price risk hedging. Fuel cells are a good component in diversified portfolios. You said the fuel cell uses oxygen and hydrogen--what is its oxygen consumption compared to human oxygen consumption? I don’t have that volumetric data, but my guess is that it’s very small. Did you say the life of the unit is 400 hours? Not really – what I meant is that GORE is currently getting 400 hours out of their units, however, they publicly state that they get 2000 hours. There is some concern about the integrated fuel cell stack. To get it under a hood of a car, the manufacturers will need to make it more powerful and smaller. What is your experience on the life of a PEM fuel cell?
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I haven’t run this unit more than 100-200 hours—but it hasn’t ever broken down. What about other units? How reliable are the membranes? Los Alamos and Argonne national laboratories can provide you with the data on lifetimes and reliability of different types of fuel cells.
Microturbines: Installation and Operation Q: A: Q: A: Regarding the use of biogas fuel, is the cost of installing the system more expensive than just processing the waste gas on site? That is sometimes the case, and there is certainly more learning needed – reciprocating engines are farther along in this area than microturbines What are the costs of microturbines? They cost about $1000/kW for the capital costs. Installation can cost from 50 to 100 percent of the capital costs. Reciprocating engines cost about the same, except the capital costs are a bit lower, but the installation costs a bit more than microturbines.
Photovoltaics: Installation and Operation (Speaker notes on items not included in electronic version of presentation) • • • • • • • • Q: A: Costs of payback vary – depends on efficiencies, prices per kWh in the area, etc. I’d like to see statewide certification so that installation is safer Wisconsin doesn’t really require any certification to install PV—but the state is currently working on this. The Department of Commerce has very little regulatory oversight—most of rules are related to insurance requirements. Grid-tied systems are much more efficient than battery-based systems— the battery is one more place where electrons have to go. Batteries also take up more space Inverters/power conditioners on the market today: Trace and Sunny Boy Utilities require homeowners insurance and disconnect devices. It would be nice to have more competition on inverter systems—right now there are not enough developers. Is inverter reliability an issue? Not so much with Sunny Boy – in my experience it has been extremely reliable—I’ve had great results with it and good efficiencies.
State-wide Perspective: DE & DG Interconnection
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What about the noise from wind turbines? There is a lot of opposition against proposed wind farms. Noise is an issue with any type of DG. We have to be sensitive to how it is sited and deployed. However, not all wind turbines are the same, and some are noisier than others – the noise level usually depends on how big the turbines are. Can wind turbines withstand extremely strong wind conditions? Yes—wind turbine blades adjust their pitch in order to handle high wind speeds.
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Local Perspective: We Energies Role in DE & DG Interconnection Q: A: Q: A: Regarding interconnection and power quality problems – how do you plan to prevent these issues in the future? In the folder I have included the technical requirements for COGS In the past, utilities discouraged DG—now more utilities are willing to collaborate. Are utilities now willing to encourage DG? We see ourselves in the business of supplying electricity, so it depends on how the world changes and how technology changes. We’ll do what we can to get customers hooked up. And we are doing what we can to facilitate DG interconnection.
Structured Discussion Comment: I feel like my day was very well spent. I’m concerned about increasing awareness about distributed energy, so this is a great step in the right direction. Q: A: You focused on emerging technologies—why did you choose these instead of common DG technologies? We chose these technology presentations based on what we hear from our customers. These are the technologies people have been talking about and what we have heard people are interested in right now.
Comment: This stuff is coming—its going to arrive in the common marketplace. DG is happening, and it’s beginning to make economic sense. I’m making more money on my PV installation than through my mutual funds. Q: A: Why are you tracking natural gas? (RE: DE: National Perspectives presentation) We began talking to the financial community about all the power generated by natural gas. Then we were seeing upcoming supply declines in Canada and the United States. When we connected the dots, we became concerned about the natural gas supplies in North America.
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That’s why energy portfolio diversity is very important, and why I am so excited about what Wisconsin is doing in the energy arena. Comment: Benefits in Wisconsin in the agriculture sector haven’t been addressed—especially regarding the dairy industry. We get mixed messages from the federal government—the Farm Bill, the costs of proposals, which are huge hurdles. There are not sufficient incentives to get people to submit proposals. Tax credits and other supportive drivers are needed. Q: A: (from facilitators) What other technologies and fuels would be of interest for future Road Shows? - Reciprocating engines and other current technologies - Business models to incorporate utilities with communities - More case studies - Downfalls and pitfalls we need to know about (pros & cons) before we start an installation, along with the economics that go with them - Incentives such as grants. How are projects paid for?
Comment: The cost of technologies isn’t the main issue – if renewable energy is compared to fossil energy on the same footing, we’d see much more progress. If energy is really measured with a common denominator, things would develop faster. Q: A: (from facilitator) For those of you who said you are thinking about DG – what else do you need to know? - We need more local information—specifics for our area - Objective sources rather than technology distributors - Cost comparisons
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