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WEDNESDAY_ 21 NOVEMBER 2007

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					21 NOVEMBER 2007                              PAGE: 1 of 154

                       WEDNESDAY, 21 NOVEMBER 2007

                                   ____



                   PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

                                   ____



The House met at 15:28.



The Speaker took the Chair.



ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.



QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY



                      SOCIAL SERVICES AND GOVERNANCE



                                Cluster 2



MINISTERS:



      Progress in implementing Investing in Culture Programme



443. Mrs N D Mbombo (ANC) asked the Minister of Arts and Culture:

     (a) What progress has his department made in implementing the

     Investing in Culture Programme since it was launched, (b) which
21 NOVEMBER 2007                           PAGE: 2 of 154


     projects are funded by his department and (c) which provinces

     are implementing the programme successfully?               NO2473E




The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Madam Speaker, the answer is quite

long but I will do my best. The programme has since been established

as a chief directorate with a staff complement of 15, which includes

nine provincial co-ordinators to support the strategic planning,

implementation and monitoring and evaluation of supported projects.



The Department of Arts and Culture, in conjunction with the Media,

Advertising, Publishing, Packaging and Printing Sector Education

Training Authority - MAPPP Seta - has entered into a training

partnership through a signed memorandum of agreement to ensure that

the supported projects receive accredited training whilst in the

short term they provide employment in compliance with the

government‟s Expanded Public Works Programme.



Accredited training in this sector has been achieved through this

partnership with MAPPP Seta on 14 learnerships and 16 skills

programmes. To ensure a scaled-up and smooth implementation of the

training programme, the provincial co-ordinators are already trained

and qualified as both assessors and moderators on craft production,

craft enterprise and craft operation management. Sixty project

managers have also qualified as assessors on craft production and 2

696 crafters have qualified on craft production.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                           PAGE: 3 of 154


In recognition of the existing skills and in increasing and

transforming the training provider base, a further 149 master

crafters were registered on the project central database. They are

qualified to render accredited training and thus can be exited.



The programme is currently funding 281 projects nationwide, with 88

located within the various Integrated Sustainable Rural Development

and Urban Renewal Programme nodal areas. The details of the

programme follow.



In Gauteng we have a total of nine projects in one nodal point,

which offer employment opportunities to 156 women and 254 youth, and

we participate in 32 EPWPs. The budget allocation is R14,6 million.



In Mpumalanga we have a total of 24 projects in three nodal areas,

which employ 395 women, 290 youth and 20 in the EPWP. The budget for

that is R13 million.



In the Western Cape there are a total of 13 projects in one nodal

point, which employ 102 women and 101 youth, and the budget for that

is R7,3 million.



In the Northern Cape we have a total of 23 projects in 12 nodal

points that employ 238 women, 312 youth and 14 in the EPWP. The

budget allocation is R11,7 million.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                                  PAGE: 4 of 154


In Limpopo we have a total of 43 projects in five nodal points

employing 847 women, 620 youth and 67 in EPWPs. The budget for that

is R32,4 million.



In the Free State we have a total of 16 projects in three nodal

points employing 126 women, 105 youth, and 11 in the Public Works

Department‟s projects, with a budget of R10,7        million.



In the Eastern Cape there are 68 projects in 39 nodal points

employing 683 women, 490 youth and 105 in the Public Works

Department‟s programmes, with a budget of R38,1 million.



In KwaZulu-Natal we have a total of 59 projects in 24 nodal points

employing 396 women, 351 youth ...



The SPEAKER: Order, hon Minister. I suggest that, perhaps, the rest

of the information can be given in writing.



The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Yes, I would like to table it if

possible but I think it gives a fairly good idea of what we are

doing. Thank you.



REPLY:



(a) The   programme   has   since   been   been   established   at   a   Chief

   Directorate level with a staff complement of 15, which includes
21 NOVEMBER 2007                                           PAGE: 5 of 154


   9 provincial co-ordinators to support the strategic planning,

   implementation, monitoring and evaluation of supported projects



TRAINING PARTNERSHIP WITH MAPPP SETA



The Department of Arts and Culture, in conjunction with the Media,

Advertising,    Publishing,      Packaging     and    Printing     Sector         Education

Training     Authority,    MAPPP    Seta,      has    entered     into        a    training

partnership through a signed memorandum of agreement to ensure that

the supported projects receive accredited training whilst in short

term   employment     in   compliance        with    the     Expanded    Public         Works

Programme of government.



Accredited training in the sector has been achieved through this

partnership    with    MAPPP     Seta   on    14    learnerships        and       16    skills

programmes. To ensure a scaled-up and smooth implementation of the

training programme, the provincial co-ordinators are already trained

and qualified as both assessors and moderators on Craft Production,

Craft Enterprise and Craft Operation Management (NQF 2, 4 and 5

respectively).



Sixty project managers have also qualified as assessors on Craft

Production    (NQF    2)   and   2696   crafters       have     qualified          on   Craft

Production (NQF 2).
        21 NOVEMBER 2007                                           PAGE: 6 of 154


        In recognition of existing skills and increasing and transforming

        the   training       provider    base,      a   further   149     master    crafters     were

        registered on the project central database. They are qualified to

        render accredited training and thus can be exited.



        (b)   The programme is currently funding two hundred and eighty-one

        (281) projects nationwide with eighty-eight (88) located within the

        various Integrated Sustainable Rural Development and Urban Renewal

        Programmes, (ISRDP & URP) nodal areas. The details of the programme

        are as follows:



Province      Project                   Employment opportunities                Finances ( R )

              numbers

              Total     Nodal Women            Youth      PWD     Total    Budget

                                                                           allocations Expenditure

Gauteng       9         1       156            254        32      361        14 644 000 13 065 000

Mpumalanga 24           3       395            290        20      495        13 050 000   6 900 000

Western Cape 13         1       102            101        0       198         7 325 000   4 968 750

Northern Cape 23        12      238            312        14      431        11 750 000   7 750 000

Limpopo       43        5       847            620        67      1091       32 475 400 24 699 900

Free State    16        3       126            105        11      286      10 750 000     8 250 000

Eastern Cape 68         39      683            490        105     1128       38 104 600 20 102 650

KwaZulu –     59        24      396            351        28      1295       34 999 000 28 811 750

Natal

North West    26        0       147            97         0       332        13 057 000   7 542 750
        21 NOVEMBER 2007                                             PAGE: 7 of 154


TOTAL         281    88      3090             2620     277        5597      176 155 000 117 732 300




        The list of supported projects is available on request.



        The   Investing     in    Culture        programme        focuses       on   the      economic

        opportunities      for   craft,      music,     heritage         and    cultural       tourism

        sectors. Through the meaningful partnerships established nationally

        and   internationally,         as   manifested       in   the    exhibitions       attended,

        products developed from several projects were able to enter the

        mainstream   markets.       Some    of   the   supported         projects      have   already

        generated    10%   of    the    allocated      project       costs,     both    in    revenue

        accrual and/or rand value of recognition of excellence. This is seen

        as a good lead towards sustainability beyond departmental funding.



        As the department, through Investing in Culture, is committed to

        providing market access to funded projects, the Rand Show, amongst

        other exhibitions, offers the projects a platform to trade in an

        experiential      environment       allowing     a    wide      range   of   consumers     to

        interact with the products. At the 2007 Rand Show, 56 projects were

        exhibited, with a revenue accrual amounting to R 152 443.00. Revenue

        accrued through sales amounts to approximately R2 million whilst

        infrastructure development allocated to specific projects by the EU

        R3 million, licensing from EMI R1 million and R50 000 came from the

        local municipality.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                                  PAGE: 8 of 154


(c)   Through   continuous   monitoring   and    evaluation,      as   well   as   a

thorough   orientation   programme,   more      than   90%   of    projects    are

successfully implemented with full co-operation from all provinces.



Nkskz N D MBOMBO: Ndiyabulela Mphathiswa ngenkcazelo yakho

evakalayo, kodwa ixhala lam lisekubeni le misebenzi ingaka iza

kugcineka njani ukuze iqhube ixesha elide, le nto kuthiwa yi-

sustainability ngesilungu, ngamanye amazwi ingabi yinto yanamhlanje

eza kuphela ngomso. Kwakhona, ndifuna ukwazi ukuba mangaphi amanye

amasebe ancedisa ukudala amathuba emisebenzi.



UMPHATHISWA WEZENKCUBEKO NEZITHETHE: Ndingenjenje ukuphendula lo

mbuzo, sifumana inkxaso enkulu kwiSebe lezemiSebenzi nanjengokuba

besele ndichazile ukuba kukho i-MAPPP seta enika abantu izatifiketi.

Ngoko ke siyancedisana ke kakhulu kwelo cala nela sebe. Eyona nto

ingamandla nebalulekileyo kukuba sifumane imali size siyifake kula

malinge ukuze abe ziinkqubo ezimileyo neziqinileyo.



Sifuna ukuba abantu bangapheleli okanye bangajongi kuwo wodwa la

malinge. Sifuna ukuba umntu athi akuba eqeqeshiwe akwazi ukuhamba,

azifunele umsebenzi ngaphandle ukuze akwazi ukuvulela abanye

izithuba. Ngalo ndlela ke sicinga ukuba la malinge angathatha ixesha

elide okanye agcineke. Ndiyabulela. (Translation of isiXhosa

paragraphs follows.)
21 NOVEMBER 2007                           PAGE: 9 of 154


[Mrs N D MBOMBO: Thank you, hon Minister, for the clarity you have

just given but what concerns me is how those jobs will be secured

and whether they will be sustainable. Those jobs should not be for a

short period. I would also like to know which other departments are

teaming up to create more job opportunities.



The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: What I would like to say at this

stage is what I said earlier on, namely that the Department of

Labour does assist a lot in that the MAPPP Seta issues certificates

and that collaboration is quite helpful to my department. What is of

paramount importance is to get adequate funding to ensure the

strengthening and sustainability of these initiatives.



Our aim is to encourage self-reliance among the people themselves in

that when they are trained in a specific field of work, they must go

and look for employment that fits the training they have received.

That will also pave the way for new entrants to also benefit from

these initiatives. In that way we are certain that these efforts

will last longer and be sustainable. I thank you.]



Mev D VAN DER WALT: Speaker, Minister, op bladsy 62 van die verslag

van die Ouditeur-Generaal vir 2006-07 is daar natuurlik ‟n hele lys

met die projekte wat op daardie datum beskikbaar was. U het nou nie

tyd gehad om die lys te voltooi nie, maar die Noordwes was nie op

daardie lys nie en ‟n mens wonder of hulle dan geen projekte gehad

het nie. U oorstemmende departement in die Limpopo Provinsie gaan al
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 10 of 154


geruime tyd gebuk onder geweldig ernstige klagtes van korrupsie en

ek sal graag daarvan wil weet.



Die program het ten doel om geleenthede te skep, juis in areas vir

mense waar hulle woon; om daar ook ‟n inkomste te verdien. Met die

probleme wat ek geskets het, wil ek graag van u, as nasionale

Minister, weet watter beheer of planne van aksie u in plek het om

hierdie projekte se volhoudbaarheid en implementering te verseker

regoor al hierdie nodale areas waarvan u praat. Dankie.



Die MINISTER VAN KUNS EN KULTUUR: In die vorige verslag is daar

miskien nie verslag gedoen oor die Noordwes nie, maar ek kan vandag

vir u vertel daar is 26 projekte in die Noordwes, waar ons 147

vrouens en 97 jeugdiges oplei. Die begroting daarvoor is R13

miljoen.



Oor die kwessie van korrupsie: as u kennis dra daaroor, sal ons baie

dankbaar wees as u dit vir ons kan blootlê sodat ons daardie

probleme kan ondersoek. Baie dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans

paragraphs follows.)



[Mrs D VAN DER WALT: Speaker, Minister, on page 62 of the report of

the Auditor-General for 2006-07, there is, of course, a whole list

of projects that were available on that date. You did not have the

time to complete the list, but the North West was not on that list

and one wonders if they had no projects. Your corresponding
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 11 of 154


department in Limpopo has had tremendously serious allegations of

corruption levelled against it for some time now and I would like to

know about that.



The programme is meant to create opportunities for people precisely

in those areas where they live; so that they can earn a living.

Regarding the problems I have indicated, I would like to know from

you, as national Minister, what control or plans of action you have

in place to ensure the sustainability and implementation of these

projects across all these nodal areas you have spoken of. Thank you.



The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: In the previous report there may

not have been any mention of the North West but I can tell you today

that there are 26 projects in the North West, where we are training

147 women and 97 youths. The budget for this is R13 million.



Regarding the issue of corruption: If you know anything about it, we

would be very grateful if you could supply us with that information

so that we can investigate these problems. Thank you.]



Mr S E OPPERMAN: Minister, Turakina is the name of a farm just

outside George. It is an ancient Quena name and if we listen

attentively, we can hear the ``tourism‟‟ in the word ``Turakina‟‟.

If we have a little understanding of ancient cosmologically

orientated religions, you will know that the ancient ``tourism‟‟ of

``Turakina‟‟ was of a special kind. It was related to pilgrimage.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 12 of 154


In the same way I can link the ancient Quena word, ``mullai’’, with

the present ``mouille’’ as in Mouille Point. In this case, some

understanding of etymology will help. Minister, is there any

possibility that your department can assist with the opening up of

this hidden knowledge which is linked to my Quena heritage and which

I believe can make an incredible contribution to cultural tourism? I

thank you.



The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: This is a very interesting

question and interesting information. There is one minor problem

that I would like to avoid and that is to get entangled in religious

matters. We all have our own belief systems and if you go through

the various belief systems, you will find that they all contradict

each other. Therefore, I like to avoid them. Much as one might say

that the belief system you are talking about is an important part of

South African heritage, so are many others, but I would rather steer

clear of those.



However, I am willing to listen, to receive information on the

matter and we can look into it. As far as I am concerned, it is far

better to steer clear of religion because it is potentially a very

explosive matter.



 Interventions to improve Mathematics and Science education, with a

 view to participation in 2011 Trends in International Mathematics

                         and Science Study
21 NOVEMBER 2007                           PAGE: 13 of 154


452. Mr G G Boinamo (DA) asked the Minister of Education:



     (1)   In light of a statement by an official of her department

           (name furnished) that South Africa would almost definitely

           participate in the 2011 Trends in International

           Mathematics and Science Study, Timss, after the

           department‟s interventions to improve Mathematics and

           Science education have had an impact, what are these

           interventions;



     (2)   whether her department has developed its own tests to

           evaluate the success of these interventions; if not, why

           not; if so, what are (a) the relevant details and (b)

           outcomes of the tests;



     (3) whether South Africa will participate in Timss in 2011; if

           not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
                                                              NO2899E




The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Speaker, may I say, firstly, that

in terms of the quotation ascribed to a staff member of my

department, I can‟t believe that a member of my department would use

a phrase such as “would almost definitely”, which, in Setswana,

means go eletsa, o lekile le o a netefatsa, because it sounds very

strange. However, the reply to the question is as follows.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 14 of 154


Firstly, the interventions that are targeted at improving Maths and

Science in schools include ensuring that disadvantaged schools have

adequate resources to enable them to lay a solid foundation in these

critical subjects, particularly in the earlier grades, through

compensatory post provisioning and school allocations.



Secondly, interventions include recruiting students with the

potential to take up teaching as a profession through the provision

of full-cost, service-linked bursaries and to supply those bursaries

for the studying of subjects in these critical skills domains for

South Africa.



Thirdly, they also involve strengthening ongoing development and

support to our serving teachers and managers of schools to make all

our school centres those of excellent teaching and learning.



We have developed our own testing systems with respect to part two

of the question as well as methods to evaluate the success of our

interventions.



Through the systemic evaluations that are conducted at Grades 3, 6

and 9, we have been able to establish important baseline information

that directs our interventions to specific areas that need

strengthening.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 15 of 154


We are already piloting standardised common tests at Grades 10 and

11 to ensure that the transition to the new senior certificate in

2008 is as smooth as possible.



We realise that there are serious needs and we are working on these

in order to have a system of external verification for all our

internal evaluations, not only of learner performance, but also with

regard to the quality assurance evaluations of the personnel and

systems that are currently utilised in the education system.



It is difficult, with respect to the last part of the question, for

me to respond to the “would almost definitely”, as ascribed to my

official. South Africa might or might not participate in Trends in

International Mathematics and Science Study in 2011. The decision to

participate will be taken by government and the Minister of

Education at that time.



We, of course, do also participate in other regional assessments and

international studies such as the South Eastern and Eastern African

Consortium for Measuring Educational Quality and Progress in

International Reading Literacy Study.



We value Timss, but we believe that the time has now come for us to

really look carefully at streamlining our participation in

international studies, many of which do not actually add value in

terms of our understanding of the key challenges that confront us in
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 16 of 154


the system of education and often replicate the nature of questions

and tests that are put before our children.



So, I believe that it is important that we avoid unnecessary

duplication of testing and focus on building a robust system that

responds to our national needs and unique challenges while attacking

the core problems that underlie the underperformance that we do see

in a great deal of our learning sector in South Africa.



Mr G G BOINAMO: Minister, thank you for your answer. However, the

improvement in the teaching of Maths and Science does not depend on

evaluation only, but also, and most importantly, on the

qualifications of teachers. Furthermore, learning and teaching

material must be in place.



My questions are as follows: Firstly, what programmes are in place

in order to intervene effectively and productively in terms of the

improvement of Mathematics and Science?



Secondly, how many Mathematics and Science educators are there and

what are their levels of qualification?



Thirdly, how many schools are equipped with Science laboratories?

Lastly, was the Minister, by withdrawing South Africa from

participating in Timss in 2007, admitting the fact that her

department has failed South African children? Thank you.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 17 of 154


The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Speaker, there seems to be a great

deal of licence with follow-up questions because I actually recorded

six. So I am not sure how to deal with this and I hope you will

allow me the time.



Firstly, and clearly, as I indicated, there is no way in which

evaluations can be seen as the sole means of driving improvements in

performance; they are apart of, and are often used for research

purposes. However, you also have to ensure that the form of

evaluation you utilise actually serves to assist you in informing

and developing your system.



While having a whole lot of international tests to participate in

might look very good, and while it may be nice for the opposition to

say South Africa did badly, as Minister of Education, I have to say

that I must put in place interventions that will improve the system;

that is my duty.



Therefore, the quality of teachers must be improved, hence my

current recruitment of any qualified teachers, willing and able to

teach in currently vacant Mathematics posts, be they South African

or non-South African. The advert is out there. If you know any

teachers who are qualified, we have the posts in which to place

them. So, clearly the issue of qualifications is being addressed.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 18 of 154


Secondly, we are addressing our teacher development programmes as

well because the research we have done indicates that the problem is

not just qualifications but also the understanding of the content.

You may have done Maths up to third-year level but if you can‟t

quite understand theorems, or your algebraic understanding is poor

and you are, therefore, unable to teach Grade 12 children, improving

content – teacher development – is, therefore, vitally important.



Regarding schools with Science laboratories, I ask you again, hon

member, to visit the website of the Education department and read

the report of Nims, the National Institute for Materials Science. It

has the full details as to the number of schools that do not have

laboratories. From the briefing made to the portfolio committee by

my officials, you are aware that the majority of schools,

particularly those in black communities, do not have laboratories

and libraries.



This is part of the indictment we must recognise and what we are

seeking to do, as government, is to respond and provide those

resources. So we do not get the reports done merely to have them sit

on our tables and make us look nice and informed; we are seeking to

attack the problem at its heart.



Finally, my department has also briefed the portfolio committee on

the Dinaledi schools programme – and I am aware that you were
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 19 of 154


present there – which is an expansion of an initiative begun in

2001.



And if you had followed that report, it would have indicated that we

have now got down to the detail of what we actually do to ensure,

one, that there are resources for teaching Mathematics and Science

in the schools; two, that we have a specific teacher development

programme for everyone of the teachers in the 468 Dinaledi schools;

and three, that we advance with my eventual strategy, which will, of

course, be concluded by that Minister in 2011, of ensuring that

every secondary school in South Africa offers Mathematics to a

child, whatever school he or she might be located in.



That is what South Africa must offer the children of the future. It

should not be our system that chooses whether a child does Maths or

not by preventing schools from having Maths teachers.



So, my own purpose is certainly to improve where we offer the

subjects now and also to ensure that we expand by giving every child

in our country, in secondary school, the opportunity to do quality

Mathematics. That is my response, hon member, to the several

questions you posed. I hope I have addressed them.



I urge you to read the reports that the officials have put before

the portfolio committee which contain the kind of detail that you
21 NOVEMBER 2007                           PAGE: 20 of 154


may be seeking. By withdrawing from Timss, I do not believe that it

was an admission that we are not ready for the programme.



I came here freely, when this question was asked, in fact, some

months ago, and said that I did not believe that our country has

done sufficiently well in the education system for me to be assured

that we would perform better or benefit greatly from participating

in Timss 2007.



I said, therefore, that we must work hard at the strategies we have

put in place to ensure that in four years‟ time we are better, more

confident that participating in Timss would actually be a sign that

we have made some improvement towards our country‟s children

performing better. I think it takes courage to say that we are not

quite ready yet. Let us prepare ourselves better and be sure that

when we do the test, we can show that we are capable. [Applause.]



   Progress in reviewing social security and welfare services for

                              children



479.   Mr T M Masutha (ANC) asked the Minister of Social Development:



       What is his department‟s progress in reviewing the basket of

       social security and welfare services for children between the

       ages of 14 and 18 years old?                            NO2928E
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 21 of 154


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, the

department has made the following progress since Cabinet directed

the Forum of South African Directors-General, Fosad, which is the

social sector cluster, to investigate measures to reduce

vulnerability amongst children over the age of 14 and to recommend a

definition of child vulnerability.



Interdepartmental discussions were held on both a bilateral and a

multilateral basis, focusing on identifying gaps in the existing

policies and legislation with a view to designing interventions to

respond to the needs of vulnerable children in an integrated and

comprehensive manner. A matrix was developed to facilitate the

identification of gaps pertaining to service delivery for children

between the ages of 14 and 18.



Furthermore, in May 2007, the Minister of Social Development hosted

an international symposium involving participants from various

social sector departments, social partners, as well as national and

international experts, to review existing child poverty reduction

strategies and interventions and to enhance existing plans towards

reducing child poverty.



In September 2007 the department prepared a Cabinet memorandum

defining child vulnerability, identifying key elements that

contribute to vulnerability in children aged 14 to 18 years and
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 22 of 154


recommending the development of an integrated strategy to address

their vulnerability.



On 5 September Cabinet indicated that further consultation was

required to refine the definition of child vulnerability and the

development of the proposed strategy. The department intends to

conduct such consultations and revise the initial Cabinet memo

before the end of December 2007. It is, in fact, work in progress.

Thank you.



Mr T M MASUTHA: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for that very

informative response. The Minister of Social Development is known to

have shifted the frontiers of poverty facing children. When he took

over in 1999, he found only 500 000 beneficiaries of the child

support grant, but today there are 8 000 000 on the system. Only

children under the age of six were receiving grants but now it is

also accessed by children under the age of 14 and, of course, the

foster care grant, which was only accessible to about 50 000

children, is now enjoyed by 400 000 children.



What other measures is the Ministry considering to continue to

expand these frontiers, to ensure that those children in this age

group continue to enjoy further protection whilst these policy gaps

are being explored? Thank you.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 23 of 154


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, as I‟ve

said, this is work in progress but I do need to point out that

poverty and income support are but a few of the gaps that have been

identified. The other gaps in the services for children between 14

and 18 include children in conflict with the law, child labour and

the lack of services or the fact that children are vulnerable to

child labour practices. Regarding child protection, such children

are easy targets for rape, sexual and commercial exploitation.



With regard to health, this age group is susceptible to substance

abuse, sexually transmitted infections, HIV/Aids and, with respect

to education, the highest school drop-out rate is amongst children

aged 14 and over. Alternative care and obtaining birth certificates

are other gaps.



All of these issues are being addressed – as I said it is work in

progress – in an integrated implementation plan; and as soon as the

Children‟s Amendment Bill is finalised, the implementation of the

Children‟s Act would address a number of these gaps. All of these

make up a basket of services beyond poverty and income support and

also includes the providing of nutrition in centres in the

afternoons and so on. These are all part of the basket of services

that is being looked at but the improved memorandum has to go back

to Cabinet. Thank you.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 24 of 154


Ms J A SEMPLE: Thank you, Madam Deputy Minister for your reply.

However, it was a little disappointing because you gave a lot of

intellectual responses and all kinds of strategies, and so forth,

but nothing really concrete. Children do not cease to be children

once they reach the age of 14. You talk about child labour and

children in conflict with the law but in fact it seems that many of

them don‟t have any other alternative because they do not have any

other kind of support. The only concrete proposal you made is the

mention of nutrition.



My concern is that this Children‟s Amendment Bill that is still

hanging around in the wings of Parliament talks about children of 16

heading child-headed households. Now, given the lack of social

workers that we have, how are those children and the children that

they are looking after going to be able to access those services?

Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, I think

that as a member of the portfolio committee, the member is aware

that all of these needs are being addressed in the Bill and that as

far as child-headed households are concerned, there are already

programmes running, not waiting for the passing of the Bill;

programmes in which home-based care workers go around to visit those

children and assist them to obtain the documentation as well as the

skills that they require with regard to the running of those

households and to get access to the child support grant for siblings
21 NOVEMBER 2007                             PAGE: 25 of 154


that might qualify for it. These services are already happening.

Thank you.



 Findings of SA Academy of Science’s report on nutrition, research

 into the impact of nutrition on HIV and TB, and regulation of the

      industry dealing with nutrition supplements and the like



451. Dr R Rabinowitz (IFP) asked the Minister of Health:



     (1)     Whether the findings of the SA Academy of Science‟s report

             on nutrition are satisfactory; if not, what is the

             position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant

             details;



     (2)     whether she will respond to the proposals for more

             extensive research into the impact of alternative health

             products and nutrition on HIV and TB; if not, why not; if

             so, what are the relevant details;



     (3) whether the regulation of the industry dealing with

             nutrition supplements, complementary medicines,

             traditional medicines and medical devices will be fast-

             tracked; if not, why not; if so, when?               NO2898E




The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the

opportunity to respond to the question by the hon member. I must
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 26 of 154


say, first of all, that it is important to state that the study was

based primarily on the review of available scientific literature,

much of which is known to the department. May I say to anybody who

is interested in matters of health that the outcomes of the

literature review, therefore, do not necessarily provide any new

information that was unknown to the Department of Health.



The findings of the literature review reaffirm the policy position

of the Department of Health. It confirms that in addition to the two

infectious diseases – TB and HIV and Aids – South Africa also faces

a challenge of micronutrient deficiencies: Overt hunger and

macronutrient deficiencies - hidden hunger. We will recall our food

fortification programme in this regard.



It also confirms that nutrition plays a critical role in promoting

good health. Proper nutrition plays a critical role in delaying the

onset of diseases and indeed there is progression – be that in

communicable or non-communicable diseases. In itself, nutrition ...

[Interjections.]



Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: I suspect that the

hon Minister is answering the wrong question because the reply she

is giving here has nothing to do with the question at all.



Dr R RABINOWITZ: It is Question 450 that the Minister is answering.

I wanted to let her speak on and then follow up on the question and
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 27 of 154


replace the order. I had noticed that she was not observing and you

were not observing ... [Interjections.]



The SPEAKER: Which question is she answering?



Dr R RABINOWITZ: She is answering Question 451, and the question

that is now up for answering is Question 450. I don‟t have a problem

if you want to change the order but correctly speaking we are now

dealing with Question 450.



The SPEAKER: Yes, we are supposed to be on Question 450.



Dr R RABINOWITZ: But the hon Minister is answering Question 451.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: With your permission, can I just complete

this question if it doesn‟t ... [Interjections.]



The SPEAKER: In other words we are now dealing with Question 451. It

is fine. For the purpose of saving time, let‟s just continue with

Question 451, which is what the Minister has been dealing with, and

then we will come to Question 450.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you very much for your consideration.

I must apologise for answering the wrong question. Nevertheless, I

am sure the answer that I am giving is indeed very comprehensive.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 28 of 154


Nutrition itself is never a substitute for medical treatment when

necessary. It serves as a solid foundation that enhances the

effectiveness of medical treatment.



On the second question of Question 451, the Department of Health

encourages research on the impact of alternative health products and

nutrition on HIV and Aids. We have a research unit within the

department which works in collaboration with other research agencies

such as the Medical Research Council. The department has also

allocated funds to conduct research on the key elements of

comprehensive care, management and treatment plan which include,

amongst others, nutrition.



Draft regulations related to the labelling, advertising and

composition of nutritional supplements, complementary medicines; and

medical devices, are being finalised and will soon be published in

the Gazette for public comment. Regulations related to African

traditional medicines are also being compiled but will take a little

longer than the above-mentioned categories. The finalisation is, of

course, also planned for the year 2008.



Dr R RABINOWITZ: Hon Minister, your interest in alternative medicine

as a support for HIV and Aids is well known and we commend you for

it. But the IFP is concerned that the development of the industry is

being done in a haphazard and nonindependent fashion. While the

country races ahead with the development of genetically modified
21 NOVEMBER 2007                            PAGE: 29 of 154


seeds which are developed, produced and sold by large multinationals

with a questionable long-term effect on health and resistance, the

development of our traditional knowledge receives very little

attention.



We feel that without an independent Medicines Control Council,

without independent ethical research, and without independent clear

mechanisms for securing intellectual property on traditional

medicines or benefit sharing for communities, our traditional

knowledge is going to be manipulated unscrupulously by companies

like Christine Qunta‟s, which makes Comforter‟s Healing Gift, and

claims that it heals HIV and the like by Dr Rath.



Why does the hon Minister not set up independent institutions to

develop traditional medicines? Why have we waited so long since the

dismissal of the South African Medicines and Medical Devices

Regulatory Authority Bill for these issues which you are responding

to today to be implemented? Why don‟t you implement better control

of genetically modified foods so that their long-term health effects

can be tracked as they emerge? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Madam Speaker, I don‟t know whether that is

a follow-up question or follow-up questions. But I will try my best

to respond to those that I think relate, in particular, to this

question.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 30 of 154


The SPEAKER: I think the Minister can respond to those that relate

to this question.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Yes. Thank you very much. I think I did

mention that we are indeed finalising the regulations in order to

ensure that the question of complementary medicine is addressed once

and for all. So, I don‟t understand what the question is because I

thought I had already given an answer that, indeed, the regulations

will be in place very soon.



The other question that would relate, in particular, to this

question – I am not going to talk about Genetically Modified

Organisms, GMOs, here – concerns African traditional medicine. The

member is a member of the portfolio committee, Madam Speaker. She

knows how long it has taken us to even agree on where to begin

around the issues of African traditional medicine. It is only in

this week, and I think tomorrow, that we are going to be able to

finalise one step in this whole process – that is the establishment

of the African Traditional Health Practitioners Council. This is

absolutely critical for us to do before anything else.



If I had moved in another direction, I would have been accused of

working outside the legislative framework. We now have a legislative

framework which I think will be approved tomorrow. Let us,

therefore, give ourselves space and time to do things properly so

that we don‟t begin pointing fingers at each other.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                             PAGE: 31 of 154


The issue of GMOs does not relate to this question. Thank you very

much.



Mr M WATERS: Madam Speaker and hon Minister, pre-March 1998, the

Medicines Control Council, MCC, made no differentiation or

distinction between various paradigms of medicines. Medicinal

substances of whatever paradigm were submitted for registration and

complementary medicines were controlled like any other medicines. I

can cite a few examples, St John‟s Wort, Senokot, and Fybogel. All

of these complementary medicines have been registered.



Since March 1998, the Department of Health has separated the

registration process of complementary medicines that have been free

for all, which are flooding the market. It was only in 2004, six

years later, that your department first issued draft regulations.

Another three years down the line, we are still waiting for the

final version of those regulations. You have mentioned in the reply

to the hon member that these regulations will be issued soon or

implemented soon. But, hon Minister, nine years down the line,

surely you can give this House and the nation a date by when they

will be issued and implemented. Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: The question that I am being asked is “by

when?” When they are ready they will be published. The hon member,

who is a member of the portfolio committee, will be the first one to

know. Thank you.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 32 of 154


Ms N F MATHIBELA: Hon Minister, is it not ironic that some amongst

us in this House do not seem to recognise our respect for the views

of entities that this Parliament funds, such as the Academy of

Science of South Africa? They, thus, present their views as contrary

to what is a subject of ongoing research in the field of biomedical

science. However, hon Minister, can you provide timeframes for the

completion of these regulations? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: The department informed me that by the end

of November the regulations will be in place. Hon member, you are

also a member of the portfolio committee. I think that this

information would have been communicated to the portfolio committee

by the officials. Thank you.



Dr R RABINOWITZ: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, may I address

the specific issue of the recommendation by the Academy of Science

of South Africa into further research into the use of traditional

and alternative medicines to treat TB and HIV?



Hon Minister, you appear to have been perfectly happy until now to

advocate the use of such medicines within the framework of

uncontrolled trials. I would specifically like you to answer the

question as to what measures you would take to do further research

in these areas but in a manner that is ethically controlled and well

managed, independently and scientifically managed? Thank you.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 33 of 154


The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Speaker, if we go through Hansard, I

am on record as saying to this House that with regard to African

traditional and alternative medicines, whatever, as a department we

will continue to do proper research in order to ensure the safety

and efficacy of the medicines that we use as a department. I am on

record in this regard. I don‟t know what else I must say except to

re-endorse the statements that I have always made in this House.

Thank you.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That then brings us to the question the Minister

should have dealt with earlier, Question 450.



Outcome of research on hoodia plant by SA Medical Research Council,

               and patent granted as a result thereof



450. Dr R Rabinowitz (IFP) asked the Minister of Health:



     (1) Whether the research on the hoodia plant conducted by the

         SA Medical Research Council, SAMRC, and Pfizer resulted in

         an active chemical being isolated for use in appetite

         suppression; if so,



     (2) whether a patent has been granted in respect of the

         chemical; if not, why not; if so, (a) in which countries,

         (b) which entity holds the patent, (c)(i) what benefit-

         sharing agreement was negotiated and (ii) with which
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 34 of 154


         community was it negotiated and (d) when will it (i) be

         implemented and (ii) become commercially available;



     (3) whether she will make a statement on the matter?       NO2897E




The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon member, thank you very much for your

understanding that I answered Question 451 instead of Question 450.



With regard to question one, the SA Medical Research Council reports

that they have never conducted any research on the hoodia plant.

That‟s what they told me. The SA Medical Research Council, with

regard to your question two, therefore, does not hold any patent on

this plant. Therefore, the answer to question three is ``no‟‟. This

is the information supplied to me by the SA Medical Research

Council. Thank you.



Dr R RABINOWITZ: Hon Minister, the answer you have given to this

question is completely amazing, because presentations have been

given to the Health committee by the Human Sciences Research Council

and the SA Medical Research Council indicating that research,

indeed, was being conducted on the hoodia plant. Also, that the

hoodia plant is widely available, making claims that it is a weight-

reducing plant.



This just indicates how poorly we are developing regulations and law

to develop our intellectual property on traditional medicines. It is
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 35 of 154


an industry that could be worth billions and billions of rands to

the people who have this traditional knowledge, yet nothing is being

done to develop it. It relates to the points I made before: Until we

have an independent ethics committee, independent research and a

clear will to develop these products, our traditional knowledge is

just going to be lost. [Time expired.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Your time has expired and there is no

supplementary question coming from what you said but, Minister, it

is up to you if you want to comment on that statement.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Well, I was just about to say I don‟t know

whether that‟s a supplementary question. It isn‟t, indeed.



I would just like to say that I am surprised that a Member of

Parliament would not know the efforts that this government is making

with regard to indigenous knowledge and that she does not know that

we have ethics committees at national level and at the different

institutions. I cannot believe that. But the question, of course, is

not a supplementary question. Thank you very much.



Mr M WATERS: Hon Minister, the hoodia plant is becoming quite a

valuable plant. It actually now costs $40 an ounce. It‟s almost

priced as a narcotic in the world. And if you go on to Google and

you google the word, you will see 40 million responses. So the world

seems to have caught on to the plant and what it can do.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                            PAGE: 36 of 154


In this country, it is promoted as a cutting-edge advanced appetite

suppressant, metabolism booster, fat burner and energy enhancer all

in one. In America, for example, the Federal Trade Commission has

just announced that they are to recover $25 million to settle

allegations of deceptive marketing tactics of this product.



You stated here that the Medicines Control Council have conducted no

trials, yet people are allowed to sell this product openly in the

market because the regulations which we‟ve been waiting for for nine

years are not forthcoming and you can‟t give us a date by when they

are coming. What are you going to do to protect the consumer in this

country against false advertising and false claims? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Speaker, my understanding is That is

the core business of Trade and Industry. Thank you.



Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Now that the Minister knows that the plant is a

South African plant and that there is a lot of financial value in

it, and she also knows, as a Member of Parliament, that the Human

Sciences Research Council can do research, and that the Department

of Science and Technology can assist her department to get it

patented, will she take it up and see to it that this becomes a

registered, patented South African plant?



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Speaker, I think the member also

knows the processes of applying to do research in this country. If
21 NOVEMBER 2007                           PAGE: 37 of 154


they don‟t want to listen to me, Deputy Speaker, I‟ll sit down. I

have no problem with sitting down if they don‟t want to listen, but

I will continue.



I was saying he knows the processes - what the MRC would do once

they think it is necessary. They put priorities to the department.

We look at the application, of course, after it has gone through the

ethics committees and so on. Finally, we agree as a department that

this is what needs to be done. This information which has been

provided might assist us in engaging the MRC and the HSRC as to what

to do next. I must thank the members for the valuable information

that they have just provided. Thank you.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Dr Rabinowitz, you are making things very

difficult for us. Why don‟t you ask questions from your seat? We

have to deal with records of the institution, and it keeps on saying

Mr Lucas, who is not in the House. Will you please go to your seat,

ma‟am, and ask your question from there?



Dr R RABINOWITZ: Hon Minister, to provide some information for you:

In the hearings that we have had as the Health committee, we have

been informed that the research was undertaken with Pfizer and

abandoned because no active chemical principle was found. So, that

begs the question why further research has not been undertaken, not

to look for an active chemical but to look for the overall effect of

the entire plant.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 38 of 154


Following up on the question that was asked by the DA, is it not

your responsibility as the person in charge of the SA Medical

Research Council and the Human Sciences Research Council‟s medical

division to see to it that this research is done in a responsible

fashion? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Speaker, before I come and answer

questions in Parliament, if the information I require emanates from

any other body, I ask that body to provide me with information. And,

therefore, the answer that I gave is in fact a report that I got

from the SAMRC, in a nutshell. I have also just said that the

information that I now have might assist me to go back and see what

we can do.



Yes, it is my responsibility as the Minister of Health to do those

things that promote indigenous knowledge in this country and to

ensure the safety of medicines in the country, be they alternative

or traditional medicines. The efficacy of medicines is indeed our

responsibility. I thought I had said ``Thank you‟‟, and I want once

more to say ``Thank you very much for the information‟‟, and I don‟t

know what further to say except to say ``Thank you‟‟, ``Thank you‟‟,

``Thank you‟‟!



  Measures against underspending of budgets by provincial housing

                            departments
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 39 of 154


485. Ms Z A Kota (ANC) asked the Minister of Housing:



     Whether her department intends taking any measures against the

     underspending of budgets by provincial housing departments; if

     not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?       NO2934E




The MINISTER OF HOUSING: Deputy Speaker, I have just sent you a note

and I would like to thank you for taking note of my concerns. Thank

you very much.



Over the past three years we have had a very good record of spending

– spending up to 96% of our allocation. We guard our successes very

jealously and we have developed steps to ensure that there are no

roll-overs in Housing. We have done this to an extent that it is

possible for us to avoid them.



Accordingly, at every Ministers and Members of the Executive

Council, Minmec, meeting, we take time to go over our expenditure

patterns and normally dispatch a team from our finance section to

assist where we perceive there is a problem. For the first time this

year we decided to take money away from provinces that show no

promise of using their allocation. A special Minmec meeting was,

therefore, called to discuss special circumstances we found

ourselves in. This year we resolved, at this Minmec meeting, that

the reallocation option would be used instead.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 40 of 154


Furthermore, we have ensured that provinces that have not performed

so well are assisted to ensure that they deal with the problems that

they are encountering. We also keep a very short leash on such

provinces to ensure that the money is spent. There is no way that we

can have a roll-over when we have such a shortage of housing. Thank

you.



Ms Z A KOTA: Thank you, Minister, for your comprehensive answer. You

spoke a number of times at the committee about delinking housing

subsidies from housing projects. Will this also assist provincial

departments with patterns of expenditure? Do you think it will also

improve or address the question of underspending?



The MINISTER OF HOUSING: Thank you very much, hon “Zo” Kota. The

issue of delinking subsidy from allocation is something that we have

been concerned with for some time now to ensure that our Housing

Subsidy Scheme – HSS - is in very good health. This is also

something that has been used by MECs to indicate some of the

problems that they have in delivery – something that they say is

slowing down delivery.



However, we have looked at the matter and discovered that it is only

a small portion of the problem that we have. We have taken this on

board and we are dealing with it. We think that the bigger problem

is nonalignment between what we do at local level and what we do at

provincial level.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 41 of 154


We are dealing, together with the Minister for Provincial and Local

Government, with the issue of the Municipal Infrastructure Grant,

MIG, allocation where we are required to pass on money to

municipalities who might not be ready for this kind of allocation.

When we have streamlined our allocation system to ensure that the

lowest level, which is the local level, is in a position to use this

money, I think we will then be over most of the problem with our

allocations. Thank you.



Mr S J MASANGO: Hon Minister, the criterion used to allocate funds

to provinces is an old one based on demands per province. For the

Minister to fairly punish provincial departments for nondelivery,

wouldn‟t the Minister consider another criterion like allocating

funds according to business plans and cause analysis, which will

force provinces to perform according to their business plans?



The MINISTER OF HOUSING: I would love to have that power. The

Ministers here who have the same problem as I do are just nodding

and saying they would love to have Members of Parliament suggesting

that we take over that power. That would be good for us.



Unfortunately, no. Allocation to provinces is determined in the

Division of Revenue Act allocations and we have a set formula which

we just carry through. But we would like to take what you are

suggesting into account – that we would need to get, from provinces,
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 42 of 154


some kind of business plan that will give us additional

responsibility and power to ensure that they do deliver.



However, hon Masango, perhaps you can make an amendment to the law.

You would get a lot of support from members from this side. Thank

you.



Mr A C STEYN: Minister, yes, the spending record for the last three

years has been good. However, this does not necessarily translate

into good delivery. With that aside, we are dealing with

underspending here. I want to put this to the Minister: Is the

redirection of funds to other provinces the only option? Shouldn‟t

one deal with the root cause of an underexpenditure, that is,

keeping officials and provincial departments responsible for the

underexpenditure? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HOUSING: Deputy Speaker, I would like to correct the

terminology that the hon member uses. The expenditure has not been

good; it has been very good. There is a big difference. We had a

very good record and I would have wanted you to actually acknowledge

that.



Yes, we had a problem where spending did not relate directly to

delivery. But the problem that we had was projects which we had to

block along the way and which we are now dealing with as block
21 NOVEMBER 2007                           PAGE: 43 of 154


projects. Once we have done this, hopefully what we put in will

result in the number of houses on the ground.



Yes, we would very much like to ensure that officials at provincial

level are held accountable for what they do. I do not know what else

I can do from where I sit. I could withhold their salaries – is that

what you are suggesting? I would love to do that. I would like to

have the power to do just that because ultimately I have to stand

here and answer to why we have any underexpenditure. Ultimately,

when people out there hear that there is underexpenditure in such a

critical area as Housing, we will then have a lot of problems.



Beyond what we have done, I am very grateful to you in the portfolio

committee for the support you have given. I think there is very

little that we can do. What we have at our disposal is to withhold

money. I think it is working very well because right now we are

getting ripples across the system. Thank you.



  Termination and or awarding of contracts with SA Post Office and

                       other service providers



469. Mr C M Lowe (DA) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:



     (1)   In light of her department having recently terminated the

           services of the SA Post Office, Sapo, as a distributor of

           its documents to post-box addresses and reviewing all its
21 NOVEMBER 2007                           PAGE: 44 of 154


           service-level agreements and its decision to choose one

           service provider to do everything, (a) what are the

           reasons for some of her department‟s contracts with Sapo

           not being cancelled and (b) what is the current status of

           the review;



     (2)   whether any other contracts with service providers have

           been terminated; if not, why not; if so, with which

           service providers;



     (3) whether a single service provider has been awarded a

           contract by her department; if not, why not; if so, which

           service provider?                                 NO2916E




The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, Deputy Speaker and hon

member. The department is currently finalising its new identity

document process mapping exercise as part of the turnaround project,

which includes the collection of IDs. This process will define the

most efficient way of distributing IDs to their owners. There are

currently a number of service providers that are responsible for

collecting applications and distributing IDs and this includes Sapo.



The work of these service providers was not managed in terms of any

real contract or service-level agreement and there is, therefore, a

termination of an arrangement rather than a contract. Thus the open-

ended nature of this working arrangement has affected efficiency and
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 45 of 154


resulted in documents being lost. And for purposes of improving

efficiency and accountability, the department has decided to

consolidate the work of collection and delivery in one service

provider. Given the fact that XPS is currently one of the service

providers and is wholly owned by Sapo as a state-owned enterprise,

we have started negotiations with them.



With regard to the third question, owing to a general problem with

contract management within the department, the turnaround project is

currently reviewing all major contracts and service-level agreements

with service providers, particularly the large ones that have a

direct impact on our ability to deliver an efficient service to our

clients.



At its conclusion this process will determine the nature of action

that is required with regard to each one of those contracts. Lastly,

no contract has been signed with XPS but discussions are under way

towards finalisation. Thank you.



Mr C M LOWE: Deputy Speaker, thank you very much indeed, and to you,

hon Minister, thank you very much once again for a very frank

response. It is not the first time that you have been frank about

the conditions of your department. I would like to thank you for

that frankness. I would also like to assure you of the support of

the DA in fixing the problems in Home Affairs.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 46 of 154


We all know what the problems are now. You and your director-general

have been more than candid with South Africa. I think together we

need to fix those problems for the people of South Africa.



On that basis I‟d just like to ask a number of questions around the

provision of these services because just as the refugees in South

Africa have human rights that they need to have taken care of – they

have certain rights that everybody writes and talks about – so the

citizens of this country too, who rely on the services of Home

Affairs, have the same rights to access those services which, as you

and I both know, hasn‟t been happening as it should be for some

time.



Around the provision of the service of providing documentation,

could I just ask – perhaps it is difficult to reply in the sense

that you are in negotiations – if you could give assurances that

those who are responsible for those negotiations will ensure that

the new provider of that service can actually deliver; that certain

safeguards are put into those contracts; that there will be penalty

clauses; that the documentation will be received on time; that there

will be standards set in the contracts, for example, how many days

before the document will be received. I think that‟s what South

Africa needs; just an assurance that it will happen. [Time expired.]



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Yes, hon member, the reason why we

have gone the route of reviewing all major contracts is precisely
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 47 of 154


because we have uncovered that one of the biggest challenges has

been a lack of penalties in our contracts in our service-level

agreements. But secondly, I can indicate to you, perhaps because I

know that there has been a lot of controversy around this Sapo

issue, that in the main it had to do with the fact that, much as we

call an ID a secure document, the manner in which these IDs were

being distributed was not of a secure nature.



So, we hope that with XPS and with the service-level agreement which

we are going to be signing with them, there will be those kinds of

penalties but also from the side of XPS that there will be an

appreciation of the fact that the kind of document we are dealing

with is in fact a secure document. Thank you.



Mr C M LOWE: Deputy Speaker, thank you very much indeed. Hon

Minister, once again, thank you for that response. Could I perhaps

just ask this: It appears from your answer to the question that

you‟re considering using XPS. Now my understanding is that XPS is

part of the SA Post Office but it is certainly a separate entity. My

concern is just that, to quote somebody very senior in your

department, your “department is just as dysfunctional as the SA Post

Office”.



I am concerned that the SA Post Office doesn‟t have a very good

track record in this. How confident are you that XPS is actually

going to deliver? Surely we should be thinking out of the box and
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 48 of 154


perhaps look at external service providers, perhaps somebody in the

private sector who will be more motivated by other reasons of

delivery rather than XPS.



I respect the fact that XPS has the right to be a contender but

surely we should look wider than that and, given the condition the

SA Post Office is in now and the fact that it hasn‟t delivered in

the past, we should be looking further than that. Perhaps you could

just make some comments on that. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: I don‟t think it has anything to do

with the inefficiency or inability of Sapo to render this kind of

service. I think that the major challenge, as I indicated earlier

on, has been in the nature of the relationship which we had, in

terms of which, firstly, there was no service-level agreement, so

there were no penalties. But, obviously, having learnt from the

mistakes committed in the past, much as XPS is an entity of Sapo, we

believe that if we have a good service-level agreement and proper

monitoring systems in place, but also penalties, XPS will be able to

discharge this function in a better manner.



But I also have to say that the biggest challenge we had with Sapo

was that, as you know, IDs would simply be distributed, so there was

no mailing which was secure which could guarantee that documents

would reach their owners. At times, as we talked, for instance, it
21 NOVEMBER 2007                           PAGE: 49 of 154


was even difficult to ascertain how many documents had been

distributed and how many had not been distributed.



But we believe that we‟ll do better with XPS, much as it is part of

Sapo, because we don‟t think the problem was in the main with Sapo;

we think that it was in the casual and informal manner in which we

were relating with Sapo. If we had had penalties from the beginning,

if we‟d had a service-level agreement properly drafted, if we‟d had

proper monitoring systems, I think that we could have avoided some

of the difficulties which we have encountered from them. Thank you.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr Lowe, it looks like you are the only person

interested in this. Would you like to have another slot? [Laughter.]



Mr C M LOWE: You are very kind, Deputy Speaker. Thank you ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It‟s not I. These are the Rules that say you can

have up to four supplementary questions.



Mr C M LOWE: If the hon Minister would indulge me, perhaps I can

just ask her to comment on the following: Obviously, any service

agreement, we hope, will hold the service provider to a maximum

number of days within which they will have to deliver documentation,

be it, normally, an ID document, but it could also be other

documents.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 50 of 154


Perhaps I could ask - I am stepping a little wide off the mark - if

she could comment whether within the department itself will start

setting targets on how many days we will take to produce those

documents because it‟s all very well delivering documents in three

days, for example, but if it is taking six months or even four

months to produce, it doesn‟t help us get very far. Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Mr Lowe, I thought you were aware of

the fact that the ID processing workstream is dealing with precisely

that issue of setting targets; one, for collection of applications,

two, for processing of IDs, but, three, also for the distribution of

those IDs. I think we have also indicated that if there is an

interest we can come and brief the portfolio committee in detail

about those targets and I think some of the targets referred to were

actually announced last week.



They look very ambitious but we believe that we will be able to do

it with proper planning and proper supervision of the officials

working in those particular areas. Thank you.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is an extra slot but I‟m not going to give

it to Mr Lowe because this is now becoming a portfolio committee on

Home Affairs and we are now also drifting away from the SA Post

Office to other areas in Home Affairs.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                             PAGE: 51 of 154

  Measures to ensure no negative impact by National Credit Act on

                   students from disadvantaged families



492. Ms P R Mashangoane (ANC) asked the Minister of Education:



     What measures are in place in ensuring that the National Credit

     Act, Act 34 of 2005, does not impact negatively on students

     from disadvantaged families?                          NO2942E




TONA YA LEFAPHA LA THUTO: Ke rata go leboga moemedi yo o tlotlegang,

mme Mashangoane. Karabo ya me ke gore batsadi ba ba duelang madi a

sekolo ba dira tuelo eo ka ditsela di le tharo. Tsela ya ntlha, ba

ka duela madi otlhe a ngwaga ka gangwe; ya bobedi, ba ka duela

kgwedi le kgwedi mme ya boraro ba ka duela gangwe ka kotara.



Go duela jaana ga go wele fa tlase ga Molao wa Sekoloto. Fa o le

motsadi mme o adima madi mo mothong yo mongwe, ke gona seo se

kaiwang jaaka Molao wa Sekoloto (Credit Act).



Ga se tsamaiso ya dikolo tsa rona go adimang batsadi madi gore ba a

dirise go duela dikolo. Ga ke itse sekolo se se letlelelang gore

motsadi a adime madi mo go sone gore a kgone go duela sekolo seo.

Dikolo tsa rona le tuelo ya madi a dikolo ga di wele fa tlase ga

Molao wa Sekoloto.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 52 of 154


Fa re bua ka National Student Financial Aid Scheme, re bua ka sekema

se se thusang bana ba diunibesithi le ba diunibesithi tsa

thekenoloji ka madi, se fa bana dibasari gape se ba adima madi mme

madi a kadimo a wela fa tlase ga Molao wa Bosetšhaba wa Sekoloto.



Karolwana ya Molao o, karolo 78 (2) (a), e e reng sekolo le ngwana

yo o adimang go tswa go National Student Financial Aid Scheme ga a

tshwanela go adima ka tsela e e tla mo reteletsang go duela madi a a

adimileng. Karolo 78 mo molaong o e thiba boatla.



Re le badiri ba National Student Financial Aid Scheme ka go adima

bana madi go ithuta mo diunibesithing, re leka go ba thusa gore fa

ba adima madi, ba adime madi a ba ka kgonang go a duela, e seng a a

tla ba retelelang go a duela.



Sengwe gape se re se dirang mo National Student Financial Aid Scheme

re dumelane gore fa ngwana a falola ditlhatlhobo tsotlhe tsa gagwe

sentle, 40% ya madi a ngwana o a adimileng a tlile go nna madi a

basari, 60% ya madi ao e tla nna madi a a adimilweng mme e tla nna

ona a busetswang kwa sekemeng; mme ka gore a adimilwe a tla wela go

Molao wa Bosetšhaba wa Sekoloto.



Pele ngwana a ka simolola go duela madi a National Student Financial

Aid Scheme, re mo leta gore a bone tiro. Fa ngwana a sena go bona

tiro, ga re dire gore a simolole go duela ka tsatsi la ntlha la
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 53 of 154


tiro, re ema gore a bone madi a a kana ka R58 000 pele a ka simolola

go duela National Student Financial Aid Scheme.



Se nka se buang ke gore dilo tse re di dirang mo molaong wa tsa

thuto ke go leka go thusa bana ba ba adimang madi mo go National

Student Financial Aid Scheme gore ba nne le bokgoni pele re ka re ba

duele madi ao. [Nako e fedile.] (Translation of Setswana paragraphs

follows.)



[The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I would like to thank the hon delegate,

Ms Mashangoane. My answer is: Parents who are paying school fees can

do it in three ways. The first way is to pay off the whole amount

for the year, the second way to pay is on a monthly basis and the

third way is to pay once per term.



Paying in this manner does not fall under the Credit Act. If you as

a parent borrow money from someone to pay the fees, then that will

fall under the National Credit Act.



It is not our school policy to lend parents money to pay school

fees. I do not know of any school that lends parents money to pay

school fees. Our schools and their payments do not fall under the

National Credit Act.



Speaking of the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, this is the

scheme that assists students at universities and universities of
21 NOVEMBER 2007                            PAGE: 54 of 154


technology with finance. It gives them bursaries and also loans, but

loans fall under the National Credit Act.



Section 78(2)(a) of this Act says that institutions and students

must not make a loan that they would not be able to pay back.

Section 78 of that Act is looking at that area.



As employees of the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, who

assist students with loans to further their studies at universities,

we try to lend them funds that they will be able to pay back.



Another thing that we are doing as regards the National Student

Financial Aid Scheme is, if a student performs well in the exams,

40% of the loan is converted to a bursary and 60% of the loan stays

as a loan and it is the one which falls under the National Credit

Act.



We wait until the student gets employment before he or she start

paying the National Student Financial Aid Scheme back. You do not

start paying on the first day of your employment but we wait until

you earn R58 000 per annum before you can start paying the National

Student Financial Aid Scheme back.



What I can say is that with the Education Act, we are trying to help

students who are getting loans from the National Student Financial
21 NOVEMBER 2007                            PAGE: 55 of 154


Aid Scheme to be up on their feet and only then can they start

paying back their loans. [Time expired.]]



Ms P R MASHANGOANE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, and thank you, hon

Minister, and thank you again for your detailed response. Minister,

can one really say the impact of the National Credit Act on students

will be minimal, given the fact that so many students have to apply

to banks and tertiary institutions for loans? Would the Minister

agree that the department should investigate further the impact of

the National Credit Act upon students? Thank you, Chairperson.



The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I do not think we would want to

investigate it unless we are made aware of a particular challenge or

problem. However, it is important to state that if students borrow

money from banks, those are registered as lending institutions under

the National Credit Act. The universities in our country which have

a loans granting system have to be registered as credit providers

under the National Credit Act.



However, as I have said with regard to the National Student

Financial Aid Scheme, we are excluded because the scheme excludes

students from the provisions of the Act and therefore the scheme,

given its operations within a statute, is not considered to be a

lending institution in the broad term of the recklessness that is

being guarded against by the National Credit Act.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 56 of 154


As I have said, the arrangement that we have made seeks to allow

young people to look for work and only begin repayment once they

earn a particular salary. This does serve as a means of assisting

young people to be able to meet the obligations. The fact that R341

million of money borrowed and paid back by graduates went back into

loans this year for other students indicates that graduates are able

to meet their obligations that arise from the National Student

Financial Aid Scheme.



Mr G G BOINAMO: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Minister, you know

as well as I do that there are highly performing learners who

unfortunately happen to come from indigent families and also live in

deep rural areas where information systems are totally out of reach.

What systems are in place to allow such learners to benefit from the

National Credit Act? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I am not sure if we would want to have

learners benefit from the National Credit Act except in so far that

the institutions they borrow money from should not be reckless in

lending money to people who clearly cannot meet their obligations as

borrowers.



Now, in terms of the National Student Financial Aid Scheme and

providing information to those students - if that is what the hon

member meant - what we are doing is ensuring that we spread this

information as widely as possible. We have begun a national outreach
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 57 of 154


campaign to senior secondary students, that is, those learners who

are in the FET phase - from Grade 10 - to inform them about FET

colleges throughout the country; how you apply for the bursaries

available for that; and the National Student Financial Aid Scheme

and its accessibility once you have succeeded in passing Grade 12.



This information is, of course, now being distributed. We have

pamphlets that we are providing to libraries in communities, to the

Thusong Centres, directly to schools, through the Umsobomvu Youth

Fund and through youth organisations so that we try as far as

possible to reach every young person wherever they may be located.

We also utilise some non-governmental organisations that have a very

strong rural outreach record as part of the organisations that

assist us in identifying deserving and talented young people who

should have access to bursaries and loans from the National Student

Financial Aid Scheme.



Mnu A M MPONTSHANE: Ngiyabonga Phini likaSomlomo. Ngeshwa,

mhlonishwa, angikuzwanga kahle kule mpendulo yokuqala ngoba

angiluzwisisi lolu limi obukhuluma ngalo. Ngizwa nje kancane kodwa

ngokukatolika uthi yena ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraph

follows.)



[Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Thank you, Madam Deputy Chairperson.

Unfortunately, hon member, I was not able to understand fully what

you said in your initial response. I do not quite understand the
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 58 of 154


language that you spoke. I understand just a little bit. The

interpreter says ...]



... When students apply for loans they are restricted on how much

they can repay. The question arises: If they are restricted on what

they can repay, what happens to the rest if they cannot afford to

top up what they have received already according to the

restrictions? That is one question.



Lo okade etolika uthi futhi ... [However, according to the

interpreter ...]



... the scheme will only ask the student to repay once he or she is

on their feet.



Angazi-ke ukuthi kusuke kunjani lapho. Sengigcina-ke mhlonishwa ..

[I do not know why that is the case. Finally, hon member ..] [Time

expired.]]



UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMFUNDO: Umuntu osisiza ngokutolika angimqondi

kahle.



Nami angizwa ukuthi ubethini kodwa uyazi ukuthi ingane efuna

ukuboleka imali evela esikhwameni sikazwelonke sokusiza abafundi

ukuqhuba izifundo, kwenziwa isu lokubheka ukuthi abazali banemali

engakanani. Imali-ke azoyithola esikhwameni sikazwelonke sezemfundo
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 59 of 154


ihlanganiswa nemali azoyithola enyuvesi, abanye bathola imifundaze

ngoba bephumelele umatikuletsheni kahle. Abanye bathola ezinye

izimali kanti amanye amanyuvesi anento ayibiza ngokuthi imali evela

kubazali babantwana. Ngakho-ke kuhlanganiswa zonke lezi zinto.



Ngaphandle uma kucaca kahle uma kwenziwa inqubo yokubheka ukuthi

akukho mali ekhaya engafundisa lo mntwana, ube-ke esethola ukuxhaswa

ngokuphelele yisikhwama semfundo sikazwelonke sokusiza imfundo.

Abanye bathola inani elincane lokuthenga incwadi bese abanye bethola

eyokuhlala ezakhiweni zesikhungo semfundo njalo njalo. Uma ekhuluma

ngokukhalinywa kwalemali angazi ukuthi ubani okhulume ngaleyonto na

ngoba angikhulumanga ngaleyonto.



Ake ngiphendule ngokubuyisa imali. Into engiyishoyo lapha ukuthi uma

ingane ithola umsebenzi mhlawumbe izokhokha izinkulungwane

ezingamashumi amathathu amaRandi, R30 000, ngonyaka – asazi. Kodwa

esikhwameni semfundo sikazwelonke umntwana kufanele athole imali ewu

-R62000 ngaphambi kokuthi akhokhele isikweletu sakhe, ngoba asifuni

ukuthi athole ukuthi iyamcindezela lento yokukhokhela isikweletu

semali abeyibolekwe isikhwama semfundo sikazwelonke. Ngiyethemba

ukuthi ke siyezwana. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)



[The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I also do not quite follow what the

person who is helping us with interpreting is saying.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 60 of 154


However, you know that when a student wants to borrow money from the

national bursary fund, it is first determined how much money the

parents have. The money that he or she will get from the national

bursary fund is augmented by the money that they will get from the

university. Some get a bursary based on their good performance in

their matriculation examinations, some get the money elsewhere,

while some universities have what is referred to as funding from the

parents of the students. Therefore, all these things are combined.



So, it is possible for a student to be subsidised fully through the

national bursary fund without first determining the financial status

of the parents. Some receive small amounts for buying books while

others are given money to pay accommodation fees at the residences

of the educational institutions, etc. When you mention the writing

off of this money, I do not know where you get that from because I

certainly did not talk about that.



Let me respond to the issue of refunding the money. What I am saying

here is that when a student gets employed, he or she is likely to

refund R30 000. However, the student must owe the national bursary

fund at least R62 000 before he or she starts paying back the money

because we do not want a situation in which he or she is being

pressurised to repay the national bursary fund. I hope we understand

each other.]
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 61 of 154


So you have to repay the loan because it survives on the basis that

the money circulates and that you repay the loan amount in order to

assist other young people. But, as I have said, 40% of that money is

converted to a bursary upon success. If you do not succeed, clearly

then you do have a burden because then all the money remains a loan.

However, for those students who complete their studies, as they

complete, a proportion of what they have borrowed becomes a bursary

and they remain with a portion which is a loan.



We have also found out that the salary levels in South Africa do

allow young people to pay the loans back. [Time expired.]



Rre G G BOINAMO: Ke a leboga Tona ya Lefapha la Thuto. Mo go adimeng

bana madi mme go twe ba adime madi a ba ka kgonang go a duela re sa

lebelele gore ditheo tsa thuto di tlhoka bokae mo ngwaneng gore a

tsene a bo a fetse; a se ga se ne se ketefaletsa bana go fetsa

dithuto tsa bona ka gonne madinyana a ba tla bong ba a adimile e le

a ba ka kgonang go a duela? Mo gongwe o ka fitlhela e le gore madi a

ga a kgone go ba thusa go fetsa dithuto tsa bone le fa e le gore

morago fa ba setse ba dira ba tla kgona go duela. Ke ne ke botsa

gore a bana ba ba ka se kgone go thusiwa gore ba kgone go adima madi

a a feletseng gore ba kgone go fetsa dithuto, go na le gore ba di

tlogele mo gare ka ntlha ya go tlhoka madi? Ke a leboga.

(Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 62 of 154


[Mr G G BOINAMO: Thank you, Minister of Education. When giving

students loans that they can afford to repay, can‟t we consider

first how much they are going to need for completion of their

studies in the institutions of higher learning? Is that not

disadvantaging them to complete their studies because the money they

have loaned is the amount that they can afford? In some instances

these loans are insufficient to pay off the whole amount of their

fees for the completion of their studies, even though they have to

repay it. I want to know whether they can‟t be assisted with loans

that can help them till the completion of their studies instead of

having to quit due to a shortage of funds? Thank you.]



The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Part of what we face as a country is that

when the scheme was introduced the view that was held generally by

the South African public and parties in the House was that all

persons who are in need of financial aid should receive support

wherever they are studying. And the costs, as you know, of

universities differ vastly - there are some that are very expensive

and some that do not charge as much as the norm.



So you do have difficulty with what is called the full cost of

studying. Hence in some institutions you find that because they are

going to divide the money amongst all the needy students and given

the differences in need – that some need R500 while others need R15

000 – the money can‟t satisfy all the needs and government is not

able to provide sufficient funding to assist all needy students.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 63 of 154


Hence the range of schemes that are in place, some with government

support, such as the recent Fundisa Scheme which was announced by

government, putting in R20 million to encourage parents, together

with the private sector‟s R14 million, to save funds through a

collective scheme created specifically for the purpose of assisting

and supporting South Africans to save for the education of their

children at higher education level.



What I am trying to say in replying to your question is that the

need is vast because we have many talented children and higher

education is expensive. What we are doing is to ensure that we

create a diverse range of mechanisms so that all the needs may be

met and also to encourage us as parents to play a role in supporting

the education of our children.



I think the National Student Financial Aid Scheme does an amazing

job in terms of contributing to the success of young people in our

country and clearly the private sector coming on board to support is

a very positive initiative but the need is huge.



   Establishment of community libraries in 2006-07 financial year



481. Mrs T J Tshivhase (ANC) asked the Minister of Arts and Culture:



     Whether any community libraries have been established in the

     2006-07 financial year, especially in rural areas and
21 NOVEMBER 2007                                        PAGE: 64 of 154


      townships; if not, (a) why not and (b) what are the challenges

      in this regard; if so, how many?                                               NO2930E




The   MINISTER     OF     ARTS   AND     CULTURE:     Madam       Deputy    Speaker,           The

following responses were received from the heads of the provincial

library     services:      Eastern      Cape,    no     community         libraries       were

established      during    2006-07.     The   reasons    for      this     were    that        the

infrastructure budget that was allocated was for the Butterworth

library and there was a limited budget for infrastructure.



In the Free State, two community libraries were opened in rural-

township     areas,       namely:       Fateng-tse-Ntsho in              Dihlabeng       Local

Municipality in Thabo Mofutsanyana District Municipality; Qalabotjha

Library     in   Mafube     Local      Municipality     in    Fezile        Dabi     District

Municipality; two libraries are under construction for opening in

the current financial year and they are Refengkgotso Library in

Metsimaholo Local Municipality in Fezile Dabi District Municipality;

and   the    Selosesha      Library     in    Thaba-Nchu      -     in     Mangaung      Local

Municipality in Motheo District Municipality.



In Gauteng, construction of 12 new libraries and the upgrading of

one library with funding from the municipalities was started in

2006-07: Johannesburg Metropolitan Municipality - Jabavu in Soweto,

River Park in Alexandra, Ivory Park North and Tshepisong in Soweto.

Ekurhuleni Metropolitan Municipality - Tembisa West Community

Library opened on 27 January 2007. Upgrading of the Olifantsfontein
21 NOVEMBER 2007                                        PAGE: 65 of 154


Library has been approved for 2006-07. New libraries for Vosloorus

and Langaville are also on the budget. In Tshwane Metropolitan

Municipality there are new libraries in Winterveld, Garankuwa,

Klipkruisfontein, and Nelmaphius in Mamelodi. In Mogale City there

will be a new library at Hekpoort.



In KwaZulu-Natal, seven new libraries were built. One in Nongoma,

Hlabisa,   Ixopo,      Ingwe,   Mtubatuba,      Eastwood,      and   in    Msunduzi.   In

Limpopo,   one      library     was     established       at   Mankweng,      Polokwane

Municipality     with    municipal     funds.     No   libraries     were    built   with

provincial funds. That was owing to financial constraints and there

was no budget. In Mpumalanga, no formal community libraries were

built.   Alternative      library      services    were    established       to   provide

access to information. A book-box was established in Sandriver and a

container library was established in Zwelisha. This was owing to

financial constraints, capacity and financial challenges.



In the Northern Cape, no community libraries were built, owing to

insufficient     funding      for     capital   projects.      In    the     North-West,

construction,     or     planning      of   construction,       of    five    community

libraries as started and mobile libraries were established in Taung,

Morokweng, Ikageng, Manamele, and there is also a relocation of the

Tlhabane Library. There is also a community library in Rustenburg

and a mobile one for each of these districts.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                                   PAGE: 66 of 154


In the Western Cape, six new libraries were built – both from the

public   and   community.   There   is   another   one   in   Nelspoort   in   the

Beaufort West Local Municipality; and in Buffeljagsrivier in the

Swellendam Local Municipality. There are library depots as extended

rural service delivery points in Klipdale, Vleiplaas, Slanghoek, and

Nieuwedrift. I thank you.



Muf T J TSHIVHASE: Mufarisa Mulangadzulo, Muthomphei Vho Minisita, u


fhenda manwalo zwi a talifhisa. Arali ra lavhelesa vhuponi ha

mahayani – mahayani kule kule, ri wana uri a hu na dzilaiburari

nahone hu na thodea khulwane vhukuma. Ndi zwifhio zwinwe zwo imelaho

dzilaiburari vhuponi ha mahayani, hune ha tou vha mahayani a

vhukuma? Izwi zwi tshi khou itelwa uri vhathu vha vhe na dzema la u

vhala dzibugu kana u nwala ngauri ndi yone thodea khulwane vhukuma

kha vhathu vhashu. Ndi a livhuwa. (Translation of Tshivenda

paragraph follows.)



[Mrs T J TSHIVHASE: Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, reading makes one

clever. If we look at the rural areas far away, we find that there

are no libraries for which there is a serious need. Which other

things are replacing the libraries in rural areas – I mean, in a

very rural place? This will be to promote a tendency for reading

books. Our people are seriously in need of libraries.]
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 67 of 154


What about the remotest rural areas? Why are there no libraries

there so that people could also engage in reading?



The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: I think the hon member should

appreciate that we disburse the funds to the provinces, who in turn

disburse them to the municipalities. As I have already explained, in

some provinces, they haven‟t built any. Not because we haven‟t

disbursed the money to them but due to the way they have distributed

it and found that they are under certain constraints.



We don‟t determine where the provinces will establish libraries nor

do we determine which municipalities they should disburse the money

to. We can only initiate a programme, make the money available, and

it is the provinces that make the final decision about how the money

is spent.



Mev D VAN DER WALT: Dankie agb Adjunk-Speaker. Minister, biblioteke

is inderdaad „n provinsiale aangeleentheid, maar ek dink die

antwoord wat u so pas aan die voorsitter van die komitee gegee het,

is baie duidelik. Ek dink die geld moet onvoorwaardelik na hulle toe

gaan. Dan sal ons dit sien. U is bekend daarvoor dat u absoluut „n

kultuur van lees wil bevorder en ek ondersteun u daarmee baie

ernstig sedert ek in die Parlement gekom het.



Dit is inderdaad so dat u beheer sal moet kan neem oor hierdie geld

van die department wat na die provinsies toe gaan, want ons mense
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 68 of 154


wat ongeletterd is en wat in die verre platteland bly, het nie

geleenthede om na biblioteke in die dorpe te gaan nie. Wat word van

hulle? Dis baie duidelik. U het nou weer gesê Limpopo het al weer

nie „n biblioteek gebou nie. Daar is „n groot krisis daar en ek kan

nie sien dat die nasionale department aanhoudend geld kan verskaf,

maar die geld verdwyn of word nie benut vir dit waarvoor die

intensie daar is nie. Ons gaan nooit by die mense uitkom nie, en ek

wil weet of u dit gaan ondersoek. (Translation of Afrikaans

paragraphs follows.)



[Mrs D VAN DER WALT: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. Minister,

libraries are indeed a provincial matter, but I think the answer you

have just given to the chairperson of the committee is very clear. I

think the money should go to them unconditionally. Then we will see

it. You are known for absolutely wanting to promote a culture of

reading and I have supported you very seriously with that since I

arrived in Parliament.



It is indeed true that you should be able to take over control of

this money of the department which goes to the provinces because our

people who are illiterate and who live in outlying rural areas do

not have the opportunity to go to libraries in the towns. What

becomes of them? It is very clear. You have just said that Limpopo

has once again not built a library. There is a huge crisis there and

I cannot see how the national department can continually supply

money, but that the money disappears or is not utilised for the
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 69 of 154


purpose for which it was intended. We are never going to reach the

people, and I would like to know if you are going to investigate

this.]



The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Deputy Speaker, I want to thank

the hon member for her suggestion, but unfortunately, unless we are

going to amend the Constitution, I won‟t have those sorts of powers.

However, what one tries to do is to enter into a dialogue with the

provincial governments so that there is some sort of making up of

minds about these matters. I think it is much too radical a step to

take - to amend the Constitution, just to enable me to build

libraries where I see the need.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Van der Walt, there is an extra slot. Rather

than shouting, take a slot and ask another question.



Mrs D VAN DER WALT: Baie dankie, agb Adjunk-Speaker. [Thank you, hon

Deputy Speaker.]



We have seen conditional grants in the budget that you had. I am not

saying that you must amend the Constitution. Just make the money

conditional. That will help. I don‟t know whether you are prepared

to do that and go into negotiations with the provinces. I thank you.



The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Deputy Speaker, I think the hon

member is absolutely right. Yes of course, if we give you the money
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 70 of 154


to do a, b, c, and d, that is conditional, but if we just disburse

money to you and say, as a province, here is money for community

libraries and you may choose, there are no conditions. If there is

an instance where we have identified very obvious needs and the

province doesn‟t come through, then of course we will be within our

rights to withhold that money until they come through, but we

haven‟t done that.



Mnr S E OPPERMAN: Dankie Minister. Ons is baie bly vir die groot

bedrae geld wat u spandeer aan die bou van biblioteke, maar een van

die fundamentele vereistes vir die effektiewe gebruik van „n

biblioteek is die vermoë van ons leerlinge om te kan lees. Ons tel

groot probleme op in die verslae wat ons kry. Daar is probleme op

skoolvlak rondom die vermoë om te lees. As u met my saamstem sal ek

dit waardeer as u miskien die Minister van Onderwys kan uitneem vir

„n ete en „n vriendelike kollegiale gesprek. Dankie Minister.

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)



[Mr S E OPPERMAN: Thank you, Minister. We are very glad about the

large sums of money you are spending on the building of libraries,

but one of the fundamental requirements for the effective use of a

library, is the ability of our learners to read. We have identified

major problems from the reports we received. There are problems at

school level concerning the ability to read. If you agree with me, I

would appreciate it if you could, perhaps, take the Minister of
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 71 of 154


Education out to lunch or dinner and have a friendly, collegial

discussion. Thank you, Minister.]



The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: So af en toe het ek by die

Minister van Onderwys ... [Every now and then the Minister of

Education and I ...] [Laughter.]



I don‟t think there is any need for anyone to suggest that I take

her out to dinner. No, no, that is not the problem. [Laughter.] Our

difficulty in terms of a culture of reading in South Africa is that

we are, in fact, not a reading nation. That is our primary

difficulty. When we did a survey on this matter, we found that in

something like 50% of households in South Africa, there are no books

at all. Very few parents read to their children. Those are the

difficulties. Hopefully the libraries will assist us in breaking the

culture of non-reading.



The other difficulty which we face, and are trying to address as the

department, is that in many instances, before people can have access

to books, they have to leap over a hurdle in that there are very few

books published in the languages that they use at home. This is why

we have been driving this process of trying to get more and more

books published in the indigenous African languages so that you can

read a book in the language you use at home and get accustomed to

reading that way rather than having to learn a new language before

you can read.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                            PAGE: 72 of 154




These are the efforts we are trying to make to break through on that

particular front. I thank you.



  Effects of transfer of funds from Eastern Cape housing budget to

                          other provinces



454. Mr A C Steyn (DA) asked the Minister of Housing:



     (1) Whether, with regard to her announcement that R500 million

         is to be transferred from the Eastern Cape‟s housing budget

         to other “performing” provinces, the transfer of “budgeted”

         funds by the Eastern Cape will have any effect on any

         existing projects that have already started; if not; why

         not; if so, what effects;



     (2) (a) on what basis were the recipient provinces, Gauteng,

         KwaZulu-Natal, Northern Cape and the Western Cape

         identified and (b) what (i) steps have been put in place or

         are envisaged to ensure that the additional funds will be

         spent efficiently within the current financial year and

         (ii) effect will the transfer from the Eastern Cape have on

         their portion of future funds over the medium-term budget

         period;
21 NOVEMBER 2007                            PAGE: 73 of 154


     (3) whether her department has taken any steps to assist

         provinces who fail to spend their allocated budgets; if

         not, why not; if so, what steps?                     NO2901E




The MINISTER OF HOUSING: Madam Deputy Speaker, the hon member wants

to know whether our transfer of R500 million from the Eastern Cape

has had any effect on that province; if not why not?



The reply is as follows: No, it did not have any effect on the

Eastern Cape, precisely because the money that we have taken from

them is the money they would not have used anyway. It is the money

that they had not already committed in their allocation. As early as

23 August 2007, we engaged with the province and indicated to them

that unless their expenditure improved, we would have to take away

that money. So by the time we took that money away in October, they

had already made the necessary preparations, I think,

psychologically, that the money would be taken away.



So I don‟t think that any of the money that has been removed would

have affected them adversely. I think that the projects that they

are running right now have been sufficiently budgeted for and this

money would not have been used anyway.



The hon member also wants to know on what basis we have chosen

KwaZulu-Natal, Gauteng, Northern Cape and Western Cape as recipients

of the money that was withdrawn from the Eastern Cape. We had a
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 74 of 154


number of criteria and chief amongst them was that we had decided

that most of the money would be used for emergency housing,

especially as we go into this particular period of the year.



Therefore, what we would have wanted to ensure was that these are

provinces that would have a high priority need for emergency

housing. These are provinces that would already have spent well up

to the particular time that the money was allocated to them. Also,

these are provinces that would have had business plans submitted

previously for unfunded projects which in terms of the allocation

that we had we were unable to fund and, therefore, these are plans

that we could very easily dust off and use.



The hon member also wants to find out what we are doing to ensure

that these provinces that receive our money are able to use the

funds. We are working together with these provinces. We have

dispatched and intend to continue dispatching teams to ensure that

that which we have allocated to them is used by the end of the year.



The hon member also wants to know, finally, whether we have taken

any steps to assist those provinces that have failed to spend their

allocations. Yes, we haven‟t taken the ultimate step. We didn‟t want

to throttle some officials. What we have done is that we have

written to the Premiers to urge them to consider directing the

necessary expertise and capacity to those departments that might be

very much in need of their support, and we are restructuring the
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 75 of 154


department to ensure that we can send personnel to assist those

provinces that have had problems.



I need to say at this particular point that the province that did

have the most severe problem was the Eastern Cape. As the member

well knows, the Eastern Cape is one of those provinces that have

responded to our request to separate the responsibilities of housing

from those of local government and, therefore, they were in the

process of restructuring and were unable to utilise the entirety of

the money which was allocated to them, which is R1,052 billion for

this financial year.



Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon Chief Whip and your cellular phone,

would you please leave us?



Mr A C STEYN: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Hon Minister, I think

the fact that funds can be taken away at such a late stage in the

financial year underscores your earlier answer that it is not

aligned to budgets. However, I would have thought that the same

argument can be used about the recipient provinces, that they also

don‟t have the aligned projects for the budget.



What comes to mind, for example, is that in last weekend‟s Sunday

paper, in the Scopa hearing, Gauteng was rapped over the knuckles
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 76 of 154


for under-expenditure of R34 million. But I think what was more

important was the R195 million that was used for an audit to

determine who lives in the previously built RDP houses.



It is, therefore, my concern that by transferring these large sums

of money to provinces at this late stage, it is either going to lead

to dumping or it is going to lead to inefficient spending. I think

there is nobody in this Chamber – individual or department – who

would not love to get a Christmas present like that, where you give

him R200 million.



Now I would like to ask you, hon Minister, are you going to be able

to ring-fence the outcomes of the additional funds very

particularly? Should you perhaps have bitten the bullet and rather

than get the very good record of expenditure, return some of that

money to Treasury?



The MINISTER OF HOUSING: No, no. There is no way I could have

returned this money to Treasury. We have a great need for housing,

hon member. We have indicated that the money that we have taken away

from the Eastern Cape is being utilised primarily for emergency

housing – which means that this money will be used for people who

are living under very stressful conditions, people who are living

below flood lines and people who are constantly plagued by fires at

this particular time of the year.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 77 of 154


There is no way that you can budget or plan for emergencies. So this

is not particularly in any of the plans that they would have had. We

are using it to ensure that, should we have the unfortunate

situation where we have shack fires or floods, we would have the

necessary infrastructure to deal very quickly with those people if

we have not already removed them.



So we are working together with these provinces and we will be able

to use this money. It is not called ``dumping‟‟ in my language. I

know we speak two different languages. In my language it is said to

be a clever re-allocation of funds to ensure that we have maximum

utilisation of money that is allocated to us for a very vital

responsibility that we have.



Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.



Mr S J MASANGO: Madam Deputy Speaker. Hon Minister, I just want to

know, you are saying the money will be used for flooding or

emergency, but should there be no emergency, what are you going to

do with it?



The MINISTER OF HOUSING: Madam Deputy Speaker, I did not say the

money will be used for flooding. Why would you use money to flood

people? [Laughter.] He was not listening when I said that we would

use that money for emergency purposes because at this time of the
21 NOVEMBER 2007                            PAGE: 78 of 154


year, with the inclement weather that we have, there are people who

live in areas that are prone to flooding.



Therefore, what we are going to do with this money in those

provinces that have these problems is to ensure that we can build

temporary housing or more solid housing in the short term to protect

those people from the hazards of this particular type of weather

that we have at this particular time of the year. But we would not

use any money to flood people.



Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.



Mkszn S N SIGCAU: Sekela Somlomo ndiyabulela, kwaye ndikwacela uxolo

Mphathiswa obekekileyo, ndicela ukubuza ukuba ingaba iphondo leMpuma

Koloni belinikwe imali engaphezulu kweemfuno zalo kusini na.



UMPHATHISWA WEZEZINDLU: Mandithi kobekekileyo uSigcawo hayi, iMpuma

Koloni inikwe imali ebesiyabele yona. Indlela esiyisebenzisayo

kuhlahlo-lwabiwo mali kukubala inani labantu abahlala kwelo phondo,

siphinde sibale iqondo lobuhlwempu kwelo phondo okanye i-poverty

index gabula makhumsha.



Ngoko ke imali ebesiyinike iphondo leMpuma Koloni besicinga ukuba

biza kusetyenziswa nyaka, kodwa njengokuba bendisitsho, abakwazanga

ukuyisebenzisa kwade kwafika le mini sibone ngayo ukuba siyisuse le

mali kubo size siyinikezele kwamanye amaphondo, ngoba saye sabacela
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 79 of 154


ukuba bahlukanise uxanduva lwezeZindlu kweliya looRhulumente

baseKhaya.



Bathe xa beyilungisa loo nto, bekwalungelanisa nephondo labo

abakwazi ukuyisebenzisa le mali ngale ndlela ibilindelekele ngayo.

Siyithathile ke le mali kodwa sikuthi siyibuyise xa begqibile

ukulungelanisa, ngoba ndiyaqonda ukuba wena lungu elihloniphekileyo,

ukuba eyona nto uyikhalelayo yile mali yakowenu. Sisayigcinile ke

siyakuphinda siyibuyise xa sele sibona ukuba nizakukwazi

ukuyisebenzisa le mali. Enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs

follows.)



[Ms S N SIGCAU: Thank you, hon Speaker, and in the same vein, I

would like to apologise for this question. Did the Eastern Cape

province receive a budget allocation exceeding their provincial

needs?



The MINISTER OF HOUSING: Let me say to the hon Sigcau: No, the

Eastern Cape province got their correct budget allocation.   When we

allocate money, we first look at the population size, and poverty

levels through the checking of the poverty index in that province.



We were convinced that the money we had allocated for the Eastern

Cape would be expended during the same financial year, only to

realise when the end of the financial year got nearer that that

money would have to be rolled back in order for us to re-allocate it
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 80 of 154


to other provinces that need it most, and we went further to

encourage them to separate Housing from Local Government.



Therefore, they cannot use that money until they sort out the

problems in and around their province. We have since rolled back

that money and will only re-allocate it after they have resolved

their problems. As we are all aware, the hon member is more worried

about the money that belongs to her province. As I have already

said, that money will be made available once you have sorted out

your problems. I thank you.]



Mr A C STEYN: Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to finish my earlier

question. What I wanted to ask the hon Minister is: Should we not,

rather than taking the risk of having the money used inefficiently -

I think my colleague wanted to know what if there is no emergency

then the money will not be used - consider returning it to Treasury

for another purpose? What comes to mind is what was said in this

Chamber this afternoon – investment in our students for bursaries. I

was going to suggest building libraries in the Eastern Cape but it

appears they can‟t do that either.



The MINISTER OF HOUSING: Madam Deputy Speaker, I wish I had the

power to recommend to the Chief Whips of their parties which member

to remove from the portfolio committee because quite clearly, the

member is more committed to education than he is to housing.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                            PAGE: 81 of 154


[Laughter.] He knows very well the dire need we have for funding in

housing.



The fact that this money has been not used right now does not mean

that other provinces do not need the money. We, unfortunately had to

follow a particular process outlined by the law - the Dora process -

and that is the money that was allocated to the Eastern Cape.

Unfortunately, because they were restructuring, they could not use

it this year. But it does not mean that we cannot use it.



We might not have an emergency in this country but there are people

who are living under very stressful situations. Would it not,

therefore, be better that we remove them from those stressful

situations in the unlikely event that there might be a hazard?



If there are no floods then we will be very happy. But if the floods

do occur we will then have the necessary means to remove them and

put them in conditions that are the kind of conditions we would like

our people to live in. But, touch wood, we will not have floods. Why

not plan for them in case they do happen? Thank you, Madam Deputy

Speaker.



    Investigation, initiatives and savings in relation to social

                           security fraud



480. Mr T M Masutha (ANC) asked the Minister of Social Development:
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 82 of 154


     What (a) has been the outcome of the investigation into social

     security fraud, (b) initiatives are being taken to deal with

     social security fraud and (c) has been the total amount in

     savings resulting from such initiatives with regard to social

     security fraud?                                           NO2929E




The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Speaker, the reply

is that the Department of Social Development entered into an

agreement with the Special Investigating Unit to conduct fraud

investigations and prosecute grant frauds. A total of 5 656 people

were taken through the courts as at the end of September 2007 and

4 515 were convicted.



The reply to the (b) part of the question is: The South African

Social Security Agency, Sassa, is implementing a number of

initiatives which range from improving the grant administration

process to fraud detection and prevention mechanisms to address

social security fraud. The initiatives include, among other things,

the use of biometrics, which allow for single user access to the

Social Security Sopen system.



This allows Sassa to accurately know who accessed the system, where

and when, and do regular data matching between Sopen and various

sources of data, for example the Persal and UIF systems. The

exercise is conducted regularly to identify exceptions which are

investigated for validity and eligibility. Sassa is also
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 83 of 154


strengthening its human resource and vetting processes to ensure

that dishonest people are not appointed or are identified and dealt

with accordingly.



The reply to the (c) part of the question is: 12 591

acknowledgements of debt valued at R69 million were signed as at

October 2007. A further preventative saving estimated at R690

million, which relates to grants that would have been paid should

the grant not have been terminated, was realised. Thank you.



Mr T M MASUTHA: Madam Deputy Speaker, thank you, Deputy Minister for

that reply. In fact we had, as the portfolio committee, an

interaction this morning with Sassa and we had our guns blazing

because of the negative report from the Auditor-General relating to

an amount of R40 million but we were pleased to note that out of

that R40 million only R600 000 could be related to fraud and the

balance of the money was actually utilised for the legitimate

functions of Sassa. I am satisfied with the further response from

the Deputy Minister so I will not ask a follow-up question. Thank

you.



Ms H WEBER: Chairperson, thank you very much. Hon Deputy Minister,

could you perhaps tell me if any of the people who have been accused

of fraud were actually employed at the Social Security Agency and

whether any of them were previously employed by social development

before the Social Security Agency was formed? Thank you.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 84 of 154


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: I am afraid that I don‟t

have the data that is being asked for in front of me but in terms of

grade 3 offenders in Gauteng there were eight people from the

Department of Social Development; in Mpumalanga there were three

people from social services; there was one in the Western Cape from

social services and from all the other departments there are people

who are offenders. Whether they were employed by Sassa,

subsequently, I am sorry that is a new question. Thank you, Deputy

Speaker.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I was also just about to say that Ministers are

not compelled to answer questions that are not related to the

initial question and that are not based on the question that had

been asked and this is one such a question.



Ms J A SEMPLE: Chairperson, I would like to ask a follow-up question

regarding the reasons for the discrepancy between the number of

public servants who were found guilty of receiving grants

fraudulently and those who have actually signed the acknowledgement

of debt. Just to help the hon Deputy Minister, this was Question

465, which we‟re not going to get to today, so I am sure you have

the answer there. Thank you.



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Are we asking Question

465 now as a follow-up question, Deputy Speaker?
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 85 of 154


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We are not asking Question 465. We are still on

Question 480 and I just made a ruling earlier on that the Ministers

are not compelled to answer anything that is not related to the

initial question. If the hon member still wants, and I think the hon

member should get a response to Question 465, given the fact that

this is our last question time this year with this cluster, it can

go to the member as a written response. Agreed? Thanks.



It looks like there is no other question related to Question 480. I

would just like to make mention of the fact that the two hours

allocated for normal question time have expired. We will now proceed

to take questions outstanding from 24 October 2007 for an hour,

which, if you remember, we promised the House that we would make

sure that we did before we adjourn this year.



      QUESTIONS STANDING OVER FROM WEDNESDAY, 24 OCTOBER 2007

                             Cluster 2



          Proposals for improvement of teachers’ salaries



356. Mr R P Z Van den Heever (ANC) asked the Minister of Education:



     Whether her department has formulated any proposals for the

     improvement of teachers‟ salaries following the recent public

     sector strike; if not, why not; if so, what proposals?   NO2490E
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 86 of 154


The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Deputy Speaker, the reply to this

question is as follows: Yes, the department has formulated proposals

for improved remuneration of educators. The proposals are available

on the website of the Department of Education in far greater detail

than I would be allowed by Madam Deputy Speaker to refer to in this

particular sitting. So I would ask the hon members to look at the

website.



We have put forward a revised proposal just this week to the

Education Labour Relations Council, given the objections to the

original proposal from two of the unions represented in the Chamber

and that set of proposals will also be placed on the website

shortly.



Mr R P Z VAN DEN HEEVER: Thank you, Minister. Some of the queries

that have been raised, and this may be covered by the revised

response that you have talked about, is that in terms of higher

salaries on the basis of higher qualifications, it would take

teachers very long to reach their maximum. In fact, it was said that

it would take teachers up to 18 years to move to the maximum of the

salaries if they go on the basis of a higher salary for higher

qualifications.



One of the concerns that has also been mentioned is that, as far as

the occupation-specific dispensation is concerned, these are based

on learner performance and teachers who are at poorly performing
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 87 of 154


schools, which are the historically disadvantaged schools, will

suffer, and teachers at better performing schools will flourish.

Given the explanation which the Minister has given that there are

revised proposals in the pipeline, I wonder if the Minister would

want to venture a comment on that?



The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Firstly, Madam Deputy Speaker, the

complaint had been that it would take 54 years to reach the end of

the notches on the upper end of the salaries that have been

proposed. Now we have replied that the calculation is wrong; it

would have taken 18 years.



However, Madam Deputy Speaker, I have to add that given that end

scale for that level of teacher is R364 000, as proposed currently,

by the end of next year that R364 000 will have changed, given

annual increments that are paid anyway so that in 18 years the R364

000 could very well be R1 000 000 given the additions one has to

work on. So the notion that you will get to R360 000 in 18 years is

actually quite mistaken and I wish we could do better calculations.



I believe the proposal that has been put forward is a fair one with

respect to the link to performance. In any system where you

remunerate on a basis where you have performance awards which we

have in our system with respect to the evaluation of teachers where

you get a percentage addition each year as an extra added on to your

annual payment, depending on performance through the evaluation,
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 88 of 154


ensuring that you also look at the performance of learners is

vitally important because you are in school as a child in order for

you to do well through the teaching. And if we have children who are

failing in the system and we continue to reward teachers, I do not

think that would be a good policy. So I think having learner

performance as one of the criteria, not the only one that you would

look at, is something that we should not really give up.



Mr G G BOINAMO: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. On the basis of the

confusion, frustration and anger she has caused by making a false

announcement on increases in teachers‟ salaries, will the Minister

accept the SA Democratic Teachers Union‟s proposal for an immediate

4,5% general salary increase, if not, why not and if so what are the

relevant details and does she expect to produce good results across

all grades when she makes the best teachers, who produce excellent

results, wait for 19 and 28 years respectively before they earn a

monthly salary of R22 000?



The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Again, with respect to the last part of

the member‟s question, I just ask you to do the calculations. Hon

Boinamo, you began in this Parliament earning a particular salary.

If you looked at how you will get to the last set of notches in the

parliamentary salary, you might have said it will take me so many

years to get to R640 000, whatever it is – I don‟t know what it is -

you cannot, if you get increases of 7%, 5%, 6% each year, have those
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 89 of 154


salaries remain static in terms of your understanding of what will

occur in 10 years‟ time.



I don‟t know what more to say. It‟s actually quite worrying that

those who are teaching our children can‟t work out that salary

levels – the top or the bottom - change every year because we have

increments every year. So I am a bit puzzled by this notion that it

takes 18 years to get to the current salary offer that we have put

forward.



With respect to the first remark, I take offence at the implication

that I have misled teachers. I certainly have not!



With respect to the matter of whether we will do something to

respond by offering an increment of 4,5% across the board, my answer

to you is the one I have given to the unions when we met, which is

that there is no agreement in the resolutions signed by the majority

of unions when the agreement was reached that there would be an

across-the-board percentage increase over and above the 7,5% that

was the settlement this year.



The agreement that was signed indicates that various departments

that employ professionals in the Public Service should work out an

occupational specific dispensation. That is what I have done. I have

acted on the basis of the agreement. The offer that I have put out
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 90 of 154


there adheres to the principles enunciated in the agreement and I

believe that it is a fair one.



There are aspects of the issues that have been raised about the

levels and the large number of steps within a notch and so on. That,

I think, is reasonable to look at and some of that we are prepared

to adjust. But as to an across-the-board increase, hon member, the

direct answer is no, there will not be such increase.



Mnu A M MPONTSHANE: Phini likaSomlomo, ngicela usheshe ungikhuze uma

mhlawumbe lokhu engizokubuza kungasahambelani nemibuzo ebuziwe.

Bengicela ukubuza kumhlonishwa ukuthi ngabe isimo sesikuphi, uma

kwenzekile ukuthi usuyitholile imibiko eqhamuka ezifundazweni,

mayelana nezikhalo zothisha ezihambisana nesiteleka samaholo ekade

sikhona. Abanye othisha bakhala ngokuthi bathathelwa izimali zabo

kodwa bengayanga esitelekeni. Sesinjani isimo manje ezifundazweni

uma uNgqongqoshe eseyitholile imibiko? (Translation of isiZulu

paragraph follows.)



[Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Deputy Speaker, I would like you to correct me

if what I‟m going to ask does not correspond with the questions that

have been asked. I would like to ask the hon Minister about the

situation now with regard to the teachers‟ salary strike that took

place recently, if she has already received any reports from

provinces. Some teachers are complaining that there were deductions

from their salaries even though they did not participate in the
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 91 of 154


strike. How is the situation now in each province if the Minister

has received the reports?]



The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Deputy Speaker, we are in constant

liaison with my colleagues in the provinces to assist them where we

can with ensuring that no teacher has deductions made from their

salary unfairly. We had a fairly significant number of teachers

writing to us with respect to KwaZulu-Natal and I believe that

matter has been resolved. We had deliberations with the head of

education as well as the MECs. We do intervene where we can.



The problem, however, arises from the fact that the steps we had

agreed to were not followed at all schools. Registers were not kept;

people would not sign in when they were at work, and so on. Also,

some of the systems of the provinces, I think, have failed us, but

we are striving hard to ensure that no teacher is disadvantaged by

virtue of the implementation of the no-work-no-pay rule.



Mr A M MPONTSHANE: [Inaudible.]



The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I beg your pardon? Well, I don‟t think

you are allowed to do what you are doing. [Laughter.]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Minister. The hon member is

definitely out of order.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 92 of 154


Hon Boinamo, there are no more slots for follow-up questions. Not

even that one.



Question 350 to stand over.



 Plans with regard to desegregation of residences at the University

                         of the Free State



353. Mr B G Mosala (ANC) asked the Minister of Education:



     (1) Whether the Council of the University of the Free State has

         informed her department of its plans to desegregate

         residences in 2008; if so, what are the relevant details;



     (2) whether her department plans to assist the university to

         implement this decision; if not, why not; if so, what are

         the relevant details?                                 NO2487E




The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Deputy Speaker, I wonder if someone

could give me the Question Paper with all these questions. I‟m a bit

disadvantaged in the sense of not having them, but ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We could just ask him to repeat the question.



The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: No, I‟ve got the question in front of me

and I can reply, but I‟m saying if there are any more for me I‟d ...
21 NOVEMBER 2007                            PAGE: 93 of 154


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: This is the last one.



The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: All right, well ...



Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, it would be a pleasure for us to

give her a copy of the Question Paper.



The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: No, thank you, not from you!



Mr M J ELLIS: Are you sure?



The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes, absolutely.



Mr M J ELLIS: Awww!



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Ellis, you are out of order! Sit down!



Hon Minister, please address us.



The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: He‟s very disorderly, but he‟s being

helpful today!



In reply to paragraph 1, yes, I have been informed by the university

of their plans to desegregate residences from January 2008. However,

the council, on writing to me, did not provide me with a copy of the

revised policy.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 94 of 154


With regard to whether we plan to assist with the implementation,

all I can say, hon member, in reply is that I‟m pleased that the

council of the university has taken the very progressive decision to

desegregate residences in 2008. I think it‟s shocking in our country

that we still have segregated residences at any university after 13

years of democracy, and I‟m looking forward to the successful

implementation of the decision of the council.



Given the challenges associated with this very important policy

development, I have asked my department to be ready to assist the

university if and when necessary.



Mr B G MOSALA: Thank you very much for this kind of response,

Minister. We are very grateful that your department has taken up

this matter with the university. Hopefully a copy of the revised

hostel placement policy will be forwarded to your office soon. We

are also hoping that the university council will be fully co-

operative and positive, especially in view of their commitment to

increase diversity in their university residences. Thank you very

much, Minister, I do not have a follow-up question.



Mev D VAN DER WALT: Agb Adjunkspeaker, dankie vir die geleentheid.

Minister, ek kan nie anders nie as om my te verstout deur te sê die

VF Plus het hierdie ding by die universiteit gedryf en nou is hulle

glad nie hier nie en hulle het selfs hulle hofsaak teruggetrek. Kyk
21 NOVEMBER 2007                                          PAGE: 95 of 154


nou maar net! [Tussenwerpsels.] Ek noem hulle nou die “VF Minus”!

[Applous.]



Ek dink natuurlik daar is baie studente wat hulle studies wil maak

werk, omdat hulle wil klaar afstudeer en natuurlik omdat dit vandag

baie duur is om te studeer. Gegewe die konflik in 1997 op hierdie

universiteit se kampus as gevolg van sogenoemde gedwonge integrasie,

kan ek u vra of u enige maatreëls in plek het ingeval daar vroeg

volgende jaar weer sulke konflik deur die ekstremiste geskep gaan

word? Baie dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)



[Mrs    D   VAN    DER    WALT:   Hon    Deputy    Speaker,       thank    you   for    the

opportunity. Minister, I cannot but make bold to say that the FF

Plus has driven this matter at the university, and now they are not

even present here today, and they have even withdrawn their court

case. Imagine that! [Interjections.] I shall now call them the “FF

Minus”! [Applause.]



Of course, I believe there are many students who will want to ensure

success     in    their    studies,     because    they    want    to     complete     their

studies     and,    of    course,     since   it   is     very    expensive      to    study

nowadays. Given the conflict on the campus of this university in

1997 which resulted from so-called forced integration, may I ask you

whether you have any measures in place in case similar conflict is

again    instigated       by   extremists     early   next   year?      Thank    you    very

much.]
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 96 of 154




The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: As I‟ve indicated, we are in touch with

the council, with Prof Fourie, the vice-chancellor, with the various

stakeholders in the institution and being aware that there are

elements that are resistant and racist, we have of course alerted my

department to also speak to departments such as Safety and Security

so that, if necessary, we would provide support.



Could I ask that we don‟t use the term “forced desegregation”,

because our Constitution, which we all support, says we should not

be segregated in the way that the institution has had its

residences. Therefore, I think all of us as political parties need

to loudly acclaim the decision taken by the council and support them

in executing the decision.



I‟m not surprised that the FF Plus is not here because the resolve

of the people of South Africa is that we would be a nonracial

society and the FF Plus is not supported in its resolve that it

cannot work with that kind of principle and objective. But those of

us gathered here, will do so and ensure that we support our

universities to reflect the ethos elaborated in our Constitution.



Mr G G BOINAMO: Thank you, Madam.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 97 of 154


O ntseetse mafoko, Tona. Legale ke tla tswelela ka potso ya me.

[Minister, you said what I intended to say. Nonetheless, I will

still ask the question.]

The segregated students‟ residences at the University of the Free

State are clearly in conflict with the creation of a nonracial

society which is enshrined in the Constitution of the country. Is

the Minister intending to hold the council of the University of the

Free State to account for having allowed this unacceptable situation

to exist for such a long time? If not, why not? If so, what are the

relevant details? Thanks.



The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: There is no provision which allows me to

hold the council to account. What would perhaps have been an action

taken within the institution or by parents would have been a class

action against the practice of segregation. I think it has been

young people who have fought against the segregation very vigorously

and have been supported by various members of the executive and

academic staff of the university who had the resolve that that

situation had to change.



It is sad that there continue to be elements in our country that are

supportive of such segregation on racial terms and fail to realise

that the young people of our country have to be the root of the

future South Africa which is united and nonracial, and I think this

important step is a contribution to ensuring that young people in
21 NOVEMBER 2007                           PAGE: 98 of 154


South Africa do become that root that gives life to a strong branch

of a united, nonracial and nonsexist South Africa.



I urge all of us to support the university and to object in

newspapers that seem to allow debate that is anti such a step to

rage in their papers. With us the progressives are tending to be

very silent on these matters. So I think, let us speak out loudly in

support of ensuring that all our institutions respect the Bill of

Rights in our Constitution and that they contribute to building a

nonracial South Africa.



Position regarding the nomination of a certain person for a position

                          on the SABC Board



360. Ms M Smuts (DA) asked the Minister in the Presidency:



     (1)   whether his Chief Director for Ministerial Services (name

           furnished) asked a certain person (name furnished) for her

           permission and her curriculum vitae on nominating her for

           a position on the SA Broadcasting Corporation (SABC)

           Board; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so,



     (2)   whether his Chief Director advised the said person that he

           is working for the Minister in the Presidency; if not, why

           not?                                               NO2496E
21 NOVEMBER 2007                          PAGE: 99 of 154


The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Deputy Speaker, the reply is as

follows: The Chief Director in the Presidency contacted the office

of the said person and requested a curriculum vitae and a letter of

acceptance for the purpose of making a nomination to the SABC Board.

With regard to question No 2, the answer is no.



Ms M SMUTS: Deputy Speaker, does the hon Minister in the Presidency

not mislead us by omission by not answering the last part of my

question to him? The second part of the question to the Minister was

whether his Chief Director had advised Ms Serobe that he was working

for the Ministry in the Presidency, to which he answered “no”.



The last part was: If not, why not? I am looking for an answer there

because we have in the interim, since the Minister was missing from

the House - and may I say how much better it is when he is with us

and for the whole afternoon – received this remarkable letter from

Ms Serobe to the Speaker in which she says: “I was contacted

telephonically by Mr Louis du Plooy of the Office of the Presidency

asking whether I would agree to a nomination. Had the chairman of

our committee asked me if I know Mr Louis du Plooy of the Office of

the Presidency, I would have confirmed “yes”, as I had no need to

conceal the fact.”



For all I know, the answer to the question whether he had advised Ms

Serobe that he was working for the Office of the Presidency, may be

no because she already knows him. However, you have not, sir,
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 100 of 154


answered the question “if not, why not?” Until we hear a

satisfactory explanation, I would like to suggest, with respect,

that that is misleading by omission.



The second thing I would like to ask, Mr Chair ...



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order, hon member! The time

for your first opportunity to ask a follow-up question has expired.



Ms M SMUTS: Thank you. I think that‟s a sufficiently serious one.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): You might have an

opportunity to ask a further supplementary question.



The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, if she wants to know,

“if not, why not?”, I do not know. He didn‟t tell her. What do you

want to know? You stand here and make accusations about misleading

by omission. What is misleading? You asked the question and I have

answered the question. If you think I am misleading you, you must go

and take whatever action you think you must take. The answer is no!

The answer to the question “if not, why not?” remains “no”, because

he did not think - and I don‟t know why - that he should inform her

who he was. What else do you want?



Mr R D PIETERSE: Chairperson, hon Minister, the Act allows any

person or any South African to nominate any suitable person to be
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 101 of 154


considered for the SABC Board. Does the Minister know of any person

that might be prohibited from doing so, or should we ignore the last

part of Ms Smut‟s question as just pure politicking?



The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much because that has

anticipated what I think she wanted to add. Let me say this: Every

South African who is an adult has a right to nominate anybody to

serve on the board. That South African need not necessarily get the

permission of his or her employer.



So, even you, Ms Smuts, if you want to nominate somebody, have the

right to do so without asking your employer, that is the DA. So, Mr

Pieterse, yes, I agree with you that an individual has the right to

nominate somebody and that an individual has nominated a person to

the board and he did not hide the fact that it was he who was doing

the nominating.



Ms S C VOS: Sorry, Chair, I don‟t know where Mr Biyela is, so I will

ask my question.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Please go ahead, Ms Vos.



Ms S C VOS: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, in fact, the person

said openly in letters that she was advised by the Chief Director

that he was working for the Ministry. But be that as it may, I

concede that, as you say, every citizen has rights and can nominate
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 102 of 154


whomsoever he or she wishes to nominate, by right, to various

statutory bodies, and that there is a constitutional separation of

powers, clearly, between the executive and the legislature.



Are you now saying that it is the view of The Presidency that it is

appropriate for senior employees to nominate prospective candidates

to statutory bodies who, thereafter, are approved by The Presidency

– the employer - either by stealth or openly? Thank you.



The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Really, Ms Vos, you know what? I

really expected something better from you. First of all, the

question is “Whether the Chief Director advised the said person that

he was working for the Ministry in the Presidency?” The answer is

“no”. The follow-up was: “If not, why not?” I said that I do not

know, but the answer is no, he did not advise her of that but he did

ask for a CV. That is the question. [Interjections.]



No, no, I can understand you. But you see, if you don‟t understand

that in a democratic society any individual has a right to nominate

- but maybe not in your party; maybe not in this independent kingdom

of Zululand that your party might want, but at least, in the

democratic South Africa ... [Interjections.]



Sit down! You„ve been talking too much today. So, Ms Vos, with

respect to this particular question, that is the answer. Whether or

not Ms Serobe may or may not have made a statement in the press,
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 103 of 154


that is not what I am answering today. So if you want to ask Ms

Serobe, you go and ask her. I‟m not here to answer on behalf of Ms

Serobe; I‟m here to answer for myself.



Furthermore, I must emphasise again and again and again, that

anybody employed in the Public Service has a right to nominate any

person to the board without having to seek the permission of the

employer. It would be ridiculous if an employee in the Public

Service had to request the permission of that employer to nominate

somebody to the board. So the answer to that question is that that

person has a right to nominate, and I‟m answering the question

according to the way it was asked.



Ms M SMUTS: Chairperson, the hon Minister in the Presidency cannot

come here and say to me that he does not know. You may not, sir,

because you are the Minister and the political head. We work here

under the doctrine of ministerial responsibility. We don‟t call in

public servants. You are the political head. That is the system

under which we function. You are accountable to us. You may not come

here and tell me that you don‟t know, in reply to the said part of

the question.



You have, by the way - on record now - the flatly conflicting

accounts of yourself on behalf of Mr Du Plooy and Ms Serobe. That is

the problem in itself. I would like you to answer this because this

is a dangerous tendency. Do you accept ... [Interjections.]
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 104 of 154




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order! Order! Order, hon Ms

Smuts! Minister, could you take your seat, please? Hon Smuts, you

are running out of time. Could you ask the question?

Ms M SMUTS: Under the doctrine we follow, what your public servants

do, you do. What Mr Du Plooy has done, you have done. That is your

department; you have to account for them. And in this case, it is

the very Presidency which is the appointing body that has intervened

in the nomination. It is unacceptable. [Time expired.]



The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: You know, Chairperson, this is just

getting ridiculous. With regard to the part of the question that

goes: “If not, why not?”, I said that I cannot answer why Mr Du

Plooy, who happens to be the Chief Director in my office, nominated

somebody and didn‟t do something about it. I can‟t reply on his

behalf, nor am I going to take lessons ... [Interjections.]



Ms H WEBER: Chairperson, on a point of order: These questions went

out prior to the answering session today. The Minister should then

have asked that employee why before he came to answer.



The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, that is precisely the

point I‟m making: I don‟t think we must ever get into a situation in

this country in which a Minister would think that if an employee in

his or her employ has nominated somebody to the board, that employee

must then be accountable to him or her. I think that is wrong and
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 105 of 154


antidemocratic. I‟m very surprised that the DA would have to take a

position that smacks of antidemocratic tendencies.



Further, I do not want to be taught a lesson by Ms Smuts about the

separation of powers, nor do I want to be taught a lesson by her

about my responsibilities to this House. My responsibility to the

House is to answer this question, which I believe I have answered

well enough.



Out of respect for her, I actually even gave her a written answer

before I came here because I was unable to come to the House

earlier, and she knows that. She had a written answer that I had

submitted, which I‟m repeating. This is the answer I am giving to

the House, an answer to the question she had posed. If she is not

satisfied with the answer, there is nothing I can do about it. I can

only answer the question in the best way I think possible. If she is

dissatisfied, hard luck!



Tools being used in Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Forestry

         Charter to ensure benefits for women and the youth



379. Ms T E Lishivha (ANC) asked the Minister of Water Affairs and

     Forestry:



     What tools are being used in the Broad-Based Black Economic

     Empowerment Forestry Charter to ensure that women and the youth
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 106 of 154


     obtain benefits for meaningful and sustainable entry into

     forestry?                                                  NO2517E




The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Thank you, hon

Chairperson, and hon member for the question. The reply is as

follows: The Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Charter for the

forestry sector that was launched earlier this year, aims to ensure

that we continue to grow the forestry sector and that it remains a

globally competitive industry whilst we ensure that there is broad-

based BEE and transformation of the sector.



The vision presented in the charter is that of an inclusive and

equitable forestry sector in which black women and men fully

participate; a forestry sector that is characterised by sustainable

use of resources, sustainable growth, international competitiveness

and profitability for all its participants; a forestry sector that

contributes meaningfully to poverty eradication, job creation, rural

development and economic value-adding activities.



To develop the Forestry Sector Charter, the steering committee

comprising of representatives from all sections of the industry was

established. This committee, in their deliberations and

consultations, recognised that if the charter were to be truly

broad-based, then women would need specific measures to facilitate

participation in the sector.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 107 of 154


If you look at the charter itself, the seven indicators of the

charter scorecard have taken this need into consideration, and

women‟s participation is included in all the elements of the

scorecard, the implication of which is that women should form part

of the empowerment deals, benefit from skills development,

management opportunities and employment equity as well as

procurement and enterprise development. Both government and

industry, therefore, have a responsibility to ensure the

participation and benefit of women in all aspects of the charter.



In fact, if you look at the sector targets themselves, the sector

has committed itself to attaining greater gender parity in ownership

of forestry enterprises and targeted 10% of ownership by black women

in existing enterprises. For medium and large enterprises, a bonus

point incentive has been included to further increase this target to

15%. Special attention will also be given by industry and government

to enterprise development support, as I‟ve said, for women in the

forestry sector.



My department, over and above this, has taken a number of

initiatives to build the capacity of women in the sector, including

training of women on forestry legislation, compliance and

participatory forestry management. We have also been providing

support on some of the non-forestry areas like training women and

have supported them in beekeeping activities and development and

management of nurseries for trees. They‟ve also been trained in
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 108 of 154


greening, pole processing and charcoal making, which are economic

opportunities associated with the forestry sector. Over and above

that, eight female students have also been allocated bursaries by my

department this year – 2007 - while pursuing their forestry academic

qualifications. [Interjections.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order! Hon Minister, your

first allocation of time has expired.



Ms P BHENGU: Thank you, Chairperson and hon Minister, for the

informative response. Hon Minister, I would like to ask whether the

Minister has considered that the women and youth should start co-

operatives as a way of involving themselves in this broad-based BEE

so as to benefit and have sustainable jobs? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Yes, we have actually

considered that. Let me say that the process to finalise a charter

has been completed and the report has to be published in the

Gazette. If you look at the charter implementation plan, one of the

agreements is for the department to establish an implementation unit

that will assist with driving certain aspects of the charter, one of

which is what the hon member is asking about, enterprise

development, supporting the small and medium enterprises that will

develop out of this, as well as support to co-operatives or

community trusts. The form of the enterprise to be supported will

obviously be dependent on the needs of the community.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 109 of 154




As far as the youth is concerned, the department has identified

existing youth projects in forestry and these will be used to

provide baseline information with regard to the skills needs of the

youth. And we‟ve done a few other things just to work with the youth

at schools and the public broadcaster, and we have started the

process to establish a Youth in Forestry Award.



Mr M M SWATHE: Thank you, Chairperson and Minister. Can the Minister

tell us whether her department has prepared a viable working capital

and trained more women and youth to take up challenging tasks and

positions in the mainstream forestry industry to create more jobs

for the poor unemployed?



The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Thank you, hon member,

for the question. One of the major challenges that has been

identified by the charter is skills shortages, especially within our

black communities. In response to this, my department together with

the Forest Industries Education and Training Authority – FIEATA -

will be hosting skills workshops in November and December this year.

In these workshops, skills needs and gaps are being identified in

relation to how women and youth as well as the disabled can be

skilled to benefit from the charter.



We are also working with the industry to ensure that training and

skills development are aligned with the sector requirements and thus
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 110 of 154


placing people in a position to compete for tenders and other job

opportunities in the sector. Funds have been set aside by FIEATA to

ensure that training can commence immediately.



In addition to skills development and training, the charter

encourages the industry to support small business enterprises

through preferential procurement and enterprise development and the

indicators that are on the scorecard.



During the implementation phase, the charter council will monitor

the industry‟s performance regarding the support of small forestry

enterprises by means of mentorship, coaching and provisioning of

opportunities to ensure their sustainability.



Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Hon Minister, having listened to your response and

having outlined your consideration with regard to the different

parts in the value chain - as forestry is now considered as quite a

key sector in government‟s industrial policy - does the department

consider that, maybe, we should target specific areas in the value

chain that would ensure that women will remain in the sector or, in

particular, in the economy? Will they consider part of the value

chain area such as beneficiation for women? Thank you.



The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Thank you, hon member.

The hon member is correct that forestry makes a significant

contribution to the economy and it has been identified as one of
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 111 of 154


those growth areas in terms of Asgisa. The size and importance of

forestry can be seen in the studies that have been produced by Stats

SA. Secondly, the contribution by the forestry sector should also be

seen in the value that it adds to our rural areas.

The hon member is also talking about beneficiation. We are indeed

looking at working together with the Department of Trade and

Industry, where we‟ve developed a strategy on how we can beneficiate

some of these, looking at industries such as timber processing,

furniture, pulp and paper.



With forestry being a rural activity, this has an enormous potential

to contribute to the development of the rural economy. Without a

doubt, as we look at these downstream industries, women are being

considered and are prepared to participate fully in the benefits.



Mr M W SIBUYANA: Hon Minister, we are aware of the fact that forests

are closer to rural areas and those people who reside in rural areas

are poverty stricken. Investment comes from the people who are

outside the rural areas. Are you in a position to tell us how the

rural areas become active participants in the industry?



The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Well, the hon member is

correct. There is poverty amongst people residing in the rural

areas, but at the same time, these are the people who are

extensively using the forestry products for daily consumption and

small-scale trade. They use firewood. Over 80% of our rural
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 112 of 154


households are using firewood as their primary source of energy.

Furthermore, it is also estimated that there are 300 000 traditional

doctors who utilise forestry products.



The contribution, presently, of the forestry informal sector to

livelihoods in the second economy is estimated at between R10

billion and R14 billion.



What I‟ve been saying, hon member, is that my predecessor, Minister

Sonjica, embarked on this process for the same reason that we want

to transform the sector and ensure that people who are in the rural

areas, where most of the forests are, anyway, become beneficiaries

of these forestry products. So, the Broad-Based Forestry Charter,

every step of the way, is targeting black people to come in on

ownership – black people and women to come in with regard to

management to be beneficiaries of enterprise development and to

benefit right through the value chain. If you look at most of what

we‟ve done, we have prepared them in terms of workshops,

consultations and setting up organisations for women in the forestry

area or sector. We are trying to prepare them.



So, what will happen is that licences are going to be issued.

Regarding companies that cannot show us that they‟ve brought in

black people and black women according to the scorecard, the council

that is going to be set up is going to monitor and evaluate the

implementation of the charter so that where there is no compliance,
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 113 of 154


we are also able to hold back the only tool that we have in terms of

regulating here.



Let me say to you that the challenge going forward is definitely in

the implementation of the charter. We have given an undertaking to

ensure that the charter will be implemented and that the industry

and all other stakeholders have signed the charter. So, I‟m hoping

that we will work together. There might be teething problems, but we

are going to ensure that this industry is fundamentally transformed.



  Adequacy of amounts currently allocated to universities to meet

                     demand for skilled workers



372. Mr G G Boinamo (DA) asked the Minister of Education:



     Whether, with regard to recent protests as a result of fee

     increases at a number of universities, the amounts currently

     allocated to universities are adequate to meet South Africa‟s

     demand for skilled workers; if not, what steps are being taken

     to increase expenditure in this regard; if so, what are the

     relevant details?                                         NO2509E




The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, I think there aren‟t any

members of the executive who would ever feel that the allocations

they get are adequate. They always wish there could be more.

However, a direct answer to the question is as follows: We have
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 114 of 154


increased the allocation to higher education to R13,3 billion in the

2007-08 financial year. The R13,3 billion is composed of three main

items: block grants, student loans and merger funds.

The largest item is R11,3 billion for block grants. This is an

increase of R1,08 billion, that is 10,6% higher than the allocation

of 2006. The second largest item is R1,3 billion for student loans,

which is an increase of R404,7 million over the 2006 amount, and

part of this, R120 million, will be used for teacher bursaries, and

R100 million for Further Education and Training college bursaries

this year.



The last amount of the R13,3 billion is R600 million for university

mergers. By the end of next year, 2008, R3,1 billion will have been

allocated to mergers since the commencement of the restructuring

process with the National Plan for Higher Education in 2001.



Mr G G BOINAMO: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, in light of the

dire shortage of skilled workers in South Africa, does the Minister

have any plans to provide free bursaries for skills training in

order to meet South Africa‟s demand for skilled workers? If not, why

not, if so, what plans are in place?



The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: There are a range of devices available in

the state to support skills training. One of them arises from the

National Skills Fund, which derives its funding from the levies for

skills training that are funded through the Setas.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 115 of 154




The other provision for skills is, of course, the R1,3 billion I‟ve

referred to for the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, which is

a massive support for access by poor, talented students to

universities as well as universities of technology.



A further addition is the amount I‟ve referred to of R120 million

for talented students intending to teach the critical disciplines in

our education system, and thus to be in receipt of teacher

bursaries, which contract them to work for the state and not to have

to repay any funds to the state.



The fourth element consists of the first time ever funding for

bursaries for FET college study; R100 million this year and more to

come from 2008. All of these are contributing toward enhancing the

skills profile of South Africa and ensuring that young people who

may be poor but have real talent should not be denied the

opportunity to become part of an expanded skills pool for South

Africa.



Position regarding use of V520 vaccine by HIV-negative women



352. Mrs M M Madumise (ANC) asked the Minister of Health:



     What is the position of her department on HIV-negative women

     using the V520 vaccine in light of decisions in the United
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 116 of 154


     States of America and Australia to put the use of this vaccine

     for HIV-negative women on hold as it was reported that it was

     not preventing new infections?                             NO2474E


The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, thank you very much to the hon

member for the question. Let me start off by saying that I think it

is now a known fact that the Department of Health supports ethical

research on the prevention of HIV infection, including research on

the development of an effective vaccine. As you know, we are working

with Saavi, the SA Aids Vaccine Initiative. Contributing to that

initiative are the Departments of Health, and Science and

Technology, as well as Telkom.



An HIV vaccine could be one of the interventions for the prevention

of HIV infections that could facilitate the reduction of such

infections. Therefore, in our view – and this is the position of the

department - halting of trials that are found to be ineffective is a

good sign for us in that it shows that there is good monitoring of

such research. Of course, you will recall that the participants in

this research had received vaccines. It is said that they were two

to three times more susceptible to being infected. Therefore, we

think that halting the research was the correct decision to take.



Of course, the South African government will continue to explore and

support the development of interventions that might help in the

prevention of HIV in our country.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 117 of 154


Let me just remind hon members – and I think they know of this –

that as soon as we learnt of this halting of trials, particularly by

the United States and Australia, the Minister and the Department of

Health convened and held a meeting with the Medical Research

Council, the SA Aids Vaccine Initiative and the principal

investigators. Obviously, we needed clarity so that we could

understand all issues around this initiative. This was important for

us because, as you know, the Department and the Ministry of Health

are responsible for the health and safety of the citizens of our

country.



So, when we were informed that the principal investigators had, in

fact, stopped the clinical trials, we endorsed that, because as I

say, in our view this indicated that we were monitoring research

appropriately, in line with all the guidelines that we have.



In this regard, therefore, all HIV vaccine trials are suspended

until there is clarity on the HVTN 503 trial. [Time expired.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Thank you, hon Minister.

We‟ll give you a second allocation of time with the supplementary

questions.



Mr A F MADELLA: Chairperson, Comrade Minister, as government and as

the country, we think that it is very important that we support all

endeavours to find a cure for this HI virus and Aids. However, we
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 118 of 154


also understand that certainly, ethical protocols are very

important. As Minister, you also referred to existing guidelines.



We would want to know whether the department has the necessary

policies or mechanisms in place to ensure that participants in

important clinical trials, such as this one, are fully briefed on

the consequences before they participate. When they participate,

they should fully understand what they are involving themselves in.

Thank you.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, thank you very much to the hon

member for this supplementary question. Let me just conclude the

part that I was trying to respond to, and then I‟ll come back to

your question, hon member.



I just wanted to say that obviously, there had been a breakdown in

communication between us and the principal researchers. However, we

have now agreed that before they go back to Seattle to make their

final presentation on the data that they are analysing, it would be

necessary for them to brief the Ministry and the department so that

we are able to communicate this message to the citizens of our

country.



And, as I was saying, the department has indeed been informed that

the participants have been requested to stop using the

investigational product, namely the V520 and HVTN 503. Researchers
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 119 of 154


in this context – and I‟m coming to the question that you asked -

are expected to continue to monitor the status of all participants,

that is, those that were positive or negative at the time the study

was stopped.



Obviously, you will recall that we have guidelines that we put in

place particularly to ensure that the ethical norms and standards

are met before people are enrolled for these trials, so that they

actually know what they are in for.



Of course, when we had a meeting with the principal researchers, it

became clear that even the advisory committees that have been

established to monitor this process were not very strong. So, we‟ve

taken a decision that we‟d need to strengthen the advisory

committees so that, indeed, the participants know what they are in

for.



So, once more, I‟d like to say that, indeed, all vaccine trials are

suspended until there‟s clarity on HVTN 503 trials. Thank you very

much.



Mr M WATERS: Thank you, Chair. Hon Minister, you stated in your

reply that you won‟t allow unsafe trials and that we should welcome

the halting of trials that were ineffective, as a sign of good

monitoring with guidelines.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 120 of 154


However, in 2005 a friend of yours, Dr Rath, set up two clinics in

Khayelitsha and was luring people infected with HIV with food

parcels in order to convince them to give up the antiretrovirals and

take vitamin C supplements instead, claiming that these would treat

them for Aids symptoms. At the time, three people were reported to

have died as a result of these trials.



In 2005, the DA submitted an application, in terms of the Promotion

of Access to Information Act, to the MCC, the Medical Control

Council, for a copy of its report into Dr Rath‟s activities in

Khayelitsha, a report that was promised two years ago. Later in

2005, you reluctantly allowed the MCC to investigate Dr Rath‟s

experiments.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order, hon member! You

should ask your question – you are running out of time.



Mr M WATERS: Are you not applying double standards when it comes to

your friends and to the safety of vulnerable South Africans? Thank

you.



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, I think it is Mr Waters who

knows about the clinical trials in Khayelitsha. I don‟t know

anything about clinical trials in Khayelitsha and, therefore, am not

in a position to answer the question that he is asking. If he has

concrete information that he can put before me that indicates that I
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 121 of 154


applied double standards, we will use that information. However, I‟m

not going to work around gossip, corridor talk and street talk that

there are clinical trials taking place when, in fact, I have not

been given concrete information about these.



So, I don‟t know anything about clinical trials in Khayelitsha.

Therefore, if he has the information, he‟s still at liberty to come

and give us that information. I have no double standards. Thank you.



Nkul M W SIBUYANA: Mutshami wa xitulu na muhlonipheki Holobye wa

Rihanyo, ndzi kombela ku vutisa leswaku xana u ti vonile timhaka

kumbe u ya twile mahungu lawa ya nga haxiwa eka TV namuntla? Lawa ya

vulaka leswaku Afrika Dzonga yi na vanhu vo tala lava hanyaka na

xitsongwa-tsongwana lexi xa HIV/Aids? Kasi ku ni matiko yan‟wana

lawa ya xi hungutaka- ya hungutaka nhlayo ya vanhu lava va hanyaka

na xitsongwatsongwana lexi. (Translation of Xitsonga paragraph

follows.)



[Mr M W SIBUYANA: Chairperson, I want to ask the hon Minister of

Health if she has seen or heard the news broadcast on TV today? The

news shows that South Africa has a high number of people living with

HIV/Aids while in certain countries the number of people living with

this virus is declining.]



Does the Minister understand what I am saying?
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 122 of 154


Se ndzi lava ku tiva leswaku loko swi n‟wi karhata Holobye leswaku

vanhu va Afrika-Dzonga va tele ngopfu lava karhatiwaka hi xitsongwa-

tsongwana lexi, xana u swi kotile ku ya kamba eka matiko lawaya ku

kuma leswaku va tirhisa yini ku va vona va swi kota ku hunguta

nhlayo ya vanhu lava va xanisiwaka hi xitsongwatsongwana lexi?

Inkomu. (Translation of Xitsonga paragraph follows.)



[So, I want to know if it does not concern the Minister that so many

people in South Africa are living with HIV/Aids, and whether she has

found out from other countries what measures they have used to

reduce the number of people infected with this virus? I thank you.]



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Did you manage to get the

question, Minister?



The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Yes, I did, indeed, Chairperson. And may I

say that that is not a supplementary question to the question that

was asked. Thank you very much.



See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.



                         NOTICES OF MOTION



Mr G G BOINAMO: Thank you, Chairperson. I hereby give notice on

behalf of the DA that I shall move:
21 NOVEMBER 2007                                  PAGE: 123 of 154


  That the House discusses the carnage which is gripping South

  African schools, where many learners continue to be murdered by

  their own peers. These senseless killings keep all learners, their

  parents and guardians in a state of fear each time they enter the

  school premises, which are no different to battlefields.



Thank you.



                           MOTION OF CONDOLENCE



                      (The late Mrs Margaret Legum)




The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chair, I move without notice:



  That the House –



  (1)   notes that on Thursday, 1 November 2007, Mrs Margaret Legum

        passed away after complications following an operation;



  (2)   further notes that Mrs Legum was a radical economist and

        anti-apartheid crusader who spent the post-apartheid years

        arguing    passionately   for   a   new   economic   order   that   will

        benefit the poor;
21 NOVEMBER 2007                                PAGE: 124 of 154


  (3)   remembers that in 1962 Mrs Legum and her journalist husband,

        Colin Legum, were banned from South Africa after writing a

        book calling on the Western countries to impose economic

        sanctions against apartheid South Africa;



  (4)   remembers that before returning to settle in Kalk Bay, Cape

        Town,   she   travelled   extensively   in   Africa,   lecturing   and

        running health and social development programmes, and wrote

        numerous books, pamphlets and articles; and



  (5)   conveys its condolences to her family, loved ones and the

        African National Congress.



Thank you.



Agreed to.



   CONSIDERATION OF FOURTEENTH TO FORTY-FIRST REPORTS 14 TO 41 OF

                 STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS



Mr N T GODI: Chairperson, as we come to the end of our parliamentary

session this year, we want to place before the House the reports of

the committee as you indicated. These 28 reports come at the end of

a year that was one of the busiest, and I need to thank my

colleagues and the staff of the committee for their resilience and

persistence.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 125 of 154




The resolutions, as they appear, are about departments and entities

that have appeared before Scopa, the Standing Committee on Public

Accounts. These include the Department of Labour, the Department of

Arts and Culture and its entities, the Department of Sport and

Recreation, the Department of Justice and Constitutional

Development, the Department of Health, the Department of Defence,

the Department of Education, the Department of Home Affairs, the

Department of Correctional Services, the Department of Water Affairs

and Forestry, the Diamond Board, the National Parks Board,

Government Printing Works, the Land Bank, as well as a number of

Setas.



As we usually do in Scopa, we have identified areas of weakness.

Concerning financial management, we have recommended remedial

actions. Most importantly, we have put timeframes on comprehensive

and truthful responses to the recommendations, and on progress

reports. It will be up to the Speaker‟s office, in relation to the

last element, to track responses within the timeframes that we have

set.



The issues that we are dealing with, run like a common thread

through almost all the resolutions. They can be classified as

arising from: one, the control environment; two, the control

activities; three, risk management; and four, the leadership or

monitoring role.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 126 of 154




As we pass these resolutions, there can be no doubt that Parliament

is fulfilling its constitutional mandate in overseeing executive

action. The ball will be in the executive‟s court to ensure

compliance with best practices in financial management and with

legislation.



We want to commend these resolutions to the House. Thank you.



Mr D M GUMEDE: Chairperson, one of the basic tenets of our

Constitution is the principle of accountability in an open and

transparent environment. In relation to this, a lot of progress has

been made in so far as legislation and rules are concerned. We have

developed plans and have implemented them. However, a lot still

needs to be done to attain the required standards.



Having considered the 28 reports that we are tabling today, at least

17 of them are qualified. One has received an adverse opinion - that

is, the worst possible scenario on financial statements - and a

number have a disclaimer, which is not much better.



Definitely, we have to improve urgently on these. Where these

continue, immediate corrective action has to be taken for the good

of our country.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 127 of 154


The major root causes for these qualified audit opinions seem to be

high vacancy rates, high staff turnover, a lack of capacity or

skills which may or may not be as a result of the high vacancy

rates, and ineffective audit committees and internal audits.



These often result in a weakening of internal control and monitoring

which, in turn, has a telling impact on governance. As this cannot

be allowed to continue, we have to examine government and some

departments so as to draw up strategies for the attraction,

retention and motivation of staff.



Our human resource management seems to need more targeted attention.

However, we are happy that - except for a very few instances - the

problem is not one of attitude. A lot of departments are really

trying their best. More and more accounting officers really take

accountability for the stewardship of public resources as a duty and

as an obligation, rather than as a burden. Indeed, adversarial

attitudes towards accountability have diminished.



Yes, sometimes it is tough to account timeously, but we should

remember that we are a winning nation. It has to be done, and we can

do it.



Regarding specific reports, I believe that some of them deserve

deeper examination. For example, the SA National Defence Force has

indeed deteriorated, whilst other departments are improving. This
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 128 of 154


department has been qualified in 16 areas of its audit. It has

significantly deteriorated even as compared to the position that it

occupied last year.



One of the major concerns is that the documents that are critical to

the promotion of previously disadvantaged soldiers have gone missing

from their files. This has been happening and has not been corrected

for a number of years. The impact of this is that people who were

disadvantaged cannot receive promotions even if those promotions are

due.



Another area of concern is that of poor control of access to

information technology systems in the sensitive area of the

Government Printing Works, which deals with identity documents such

as IDs, passports and birth certificates. Indeed, we need much

tighter access controls at the Government Printing Works.



I shall not get into any report and will leave that to speakers that

will follow on me.



Lastly, the basic values and principles governing public

administration, as enshrined in our Constitution, are primarily the

promotion of efficient, economic and effective use of public

resources.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 129 of 154


Another important principle in public administration, amongst many,

is that of accountability. It should be accountable to the public

because it uses public funds. We are in government, but we are not

using our own money.



The Public Finance Management Act, by and large, promotes these, and

indeed it is heartening that the Auditor-General has noted that, and

I quote: “National departments and other Public Finance Management

Act organisations have shown a steady improvement in submitting

financial statements on time, as required by the applicable

legislation.” For this we congratulate our Public Service.



In conclusion, yes, we have a problem, but what is inspiring is that

more and more departments are getting better. We thank the

accounting officers concerned. This will promote our integrity as

well as public confidence in the administration of our beautiful

motherland and make us a winning nation. Thank you very much,

Chairperson.



Mr E W TRENT: Chair, it would be instructive for members to note the

details of the 28 reports that are being discussed here, today, as

well as Scopa‟s recommendations. It is impossible to go through all

these issues as there are literally hundreds of issues that are

raised.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 130 of 154


However, to contribute to the improved effectiveness of Parliament

as the ultimate oversight institution over our public accounts, I

would like to focus my attention on the implications of the late

processing of these reports and on matters raised by the Auditor-

General during his briefing on the latest audit outcome report.



These 28 reports were all finalised by Scopa between 7 and 20 June

2007. Yet they relate to the 2005-06 financial year. All require a

response from the relevant departments within 60 days from adoption.

This means that if these reports are in fact adopted this evening,

the departments will be required to respond to a report that has

already been superseded, because Scopa is currently dealing with the

2006-07 reports.



Scopa has already concluded hearings for 2007 with the following

departments: Health, which received its 5th qualified audit in six

years - and the hon Minister is gone now; Correctional Services,

which received its 6th consecutive qualified audit; Justice and

Constitutional Development, which received its 4th qualified audit

in six years; and Defence, which has also received its 5th

consecutive qualified audit in five years.



A hearing with the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, which

received its 5th qualification and worst audit opinion in the last

six years, is imminent. This means that Scopa‟s hands have been

effectively tied in contributing to a year-on-year improvement in
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 131 of 154


the financial management and interaction with these serial

offenders.



The Auditor-General is required to include in his report the

departments‟ responses to Scopa‟s recommendations, but is unable to

do so because they are too late. In order to correct this situation,

the cycle of oversight must be run in such a way that it fits in and

complements the cycle of reporting as set out in the Public Finance

Management Act.



I want to come to something more important, and I now turn my

attention to a very serious matter. The Auditor-General has

expressed himself in no uncertain terms as to the role of leadership

at both executive and administrative level in ensuring that sound

management of our public finance takes place.



If you look at his report, you will find that those departments that

have been successful have strong leadership at executive and

political level. So, you see, leadership is very important - and you

can read that report for yourself.



The advent of the Public Finance Management Act of 1999 was aimed at

changing the way that government departments were being run, by

enabling public sector managers to manage, but at the same time also

be accountable. They have to manage and they have to take

responsibility for leadership when they are in management.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                           PAGE: 132 of 154




The Public Finance Management Act goes further to say that

government departments and accounting officers must ensure that

their departments have and maintain effective, efficient and

transparent systems of financial risk management and internal

control. Failure to do that is an offence in terms of the Act, yet

people are not acted upon.



In this respect, the Auditor-General has pointed out that the

attitudes of Ministers and managers towards the accounting processes

are wanting in many cases. There are two or three Ministers here

this afternoon; they are not interested in financial matters.

Training sessions are often only attended by junior staff members

while members of the executive do not always ensure that they are

party to financial management decisions.



The DA notes that government is at long last starting to hold

accounting officers who are unsuccessful in addressing these

matters, accountable and we welcome that. The recent resignation of

the Director-General of the Department of Labour is a welcome

example, and we hope that others will follow that example.



However, we are still concerned that responsible Ministers appear to

be ignorant of what is going on in the offending departments and

entities. An example of this is the case of the former Minister for
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 133 of 154


Agriculture and Land Affairs, who did not know what was going on at

the Land Bank. You have to give leadership, if you want to manage.



In the three and a half years that I have served on Scopa in the

National Assembly, I cannot recall a single ministerial response to

any Scopa resolution, not even from one of our serial offenders. If

I can be proved wrong, then tell me which Minister has ever

responded to a Scopa resolution to this House. And they are

accountable to this House.



Until this situation is rectified and the buck is made to stop with

the political leadership, we will not see significant improvement in

the way we spend taxpayers‟ money and deliver services to the

people. Thank you, Chair.



Mr H J BEKKER: Chairperson, the Scopa reports before this House yet

again bring into sharp focus the inability of the many state

institutions to comply fully with public finance laws and

regulations. The Public Finance Management Act was created

specifically to improve state financial administration. But now,

some nine years after its creation, the law is still not properly

implemented and is perhaps not taken seriously enough by accounting

officers.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 134 of 154


By way of example, Scopa reports also highlight lack of proper

internal controls, inappropriate accounting transactions, lack of

performance audits and weaknesses in financial administration.



I want to concentrate on the MAPPP Seta and the ISETT Seta. Both of

these received qualified audit opinions. The former paid out an

amount of R12 million to training institutions without supporting

documents, raising the possibility of fraud and corruption.

Furthermore, certain discretionary payments were made that were also

susceptible to irregularities.



The MAPPP Seta also exceeded the threshold of administrative

expenditure allowed by law. Very concerning is the fact that the

ISETT Seta paid out performance bonuses, and that after having

received two consecutive disclaimers of audit opinions.



It is clear that financial management of these two Setas leaves much

to be desired, as is the case in large parts of the Seta system in

general. I‟m sure Scopa will, in future, as in the past, be

extremely vigilant about the financial administration of these

organisations.



Chairperson, the IFP wholeheartedly supports the various

recommendations of the committee. We hope that vigorous

implementation of these recommendations will improve the state of
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 135 of 154


affairs at these institutions and we assure them of our support and

our vigilance in monitoring their future performance.



We would also like to express our appreciation to the chairperson of

the committee, the hon Themba Godi, and our colleagues from all the

parties for their hard work and dedication to clean, accurate and

proper public finance management. Thank you.



Mr G T MADIKIZA: Chairperson and hon members, there are, in these

reports, issues that are justifiable. Some cases are exceptions to

otherwise acceptable track records.



It should be noted that several issues are recurring themes

throughout these reports, and are illustrative of systemic

challenges facing the public sector. We need to acknowledge these

problems and implement corrective measures that will set new

benchmarks for what the minimum requirements are for the management

of taxpayers‟ money.



Firstly, lack of capacity and/or skills shortages hamper many of the

institutions and organisations dealt with in these reports. This is

an avoidable dilemma, and the resources are there to remedy it.

Vacancies need to be filled, capacity should be expanded through

training and incompetence should not be tolerated. It is not about

rocket science; it is just about basic management duties.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 136 of 154


Secondly, on the topic of management, poor management and control

over financial resources and processes are another recurring theme

and lead to other issues that are seen throughout these reports such

as insufficient internal control, governance issues and failure to

comply with the laws and regulations. Again, the duties and

requirements for public management are not a mystery. There are

manuals and laws that outline in detail what is required of a public

sector manager.



Widespread failure to respect the established legal and procedural

framework can eventually only be attributed to two things: It‟s

callousness or incompetence at the highest levels. The line-function

Ministers should be asking whether or not they want to be associated

with the poor management that happened on their watch.



The UDM supports the recommendations made in the reports of the

Standing Committee on Public Accounts. [Applause.]



Ms N HLANGWANA: Hon Chairperson, the public hearings for the 2005-06

financial year for different departments in the public sector were

conducted by the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.



The purpose of these public hearings is to hold officials of the

various departments accountable, and understand the complexities and

challenges that they encounter in performing their duties. There are

predominantly common weaknesses in most departments, which are lack
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 137 of 154


of financial control, and non-compliance with Treasury regulations

and the Public Finance Management Act.



The annual report of the Department of Home Affairs was noted, by

the Auditor-General, as qualified, and concerns were raised about

the state of financial affairs, and high vacancy and staff turnover

rates, which are the contributing factors to the present state of

affairs in the department. Therefore, Scopa recommended that the

accounting officer urgently implement adequate financial reporting

systems. Also, the officer should develop suitable policies and

procedures to reach an acceptable level of maturity regarding

financial management.



Irregular expenditure was also identified as one of the challenges

that were not fully compliant in terms of section 1 of the Public

Finance Management Act. There was an expenditure of R19 million,

which did not comply with supply-chain management and Treasury

regulations. There are very clear recommendations that need to be

adhered to.



In regard to the human resource factor, the department should take

the necessary steps to ensure that all funded posts are filled with

appropriately skilled personnel and that the retention policy is

reviewed, and it is hoped that the hon Minister will monitor the

accounting officer in regard to these recommendations.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 138 of 154


The Department of Health also received a qualified audit report.

There is non-adherence to the Division of Revenue Act at both

national and provincial department level, which is a cause for

concern. The other discomforting factor is the lack of adherence to

the supply-chain management procedures and processes.



The Department of Correctional Services has acknowledged the

weaknesses identified by the Auditor-General and the recommendations

are very clear that within 60 days of the adoption of this report by

the National Assembly, the names of officials who were involved in

the negotiations for the public-private partnership contracts who

have left the department and subsequently taken directorship and

leadership positions in the above-mentioned asset procurement and

operating partnership should be submitted to Parliament in order to

ascertain whether there were any irregularities in the process.



In general, as stated at the beginning, there are key weaknesses in

the financial controls of most departments, and it is important that

we have a uniform accounting system practised by accounting

officers. Lack of adherence to legislation and procedures should

result in disciplinary action by the various departments.



As a committee, we would encourage other portfolio committees to

interact with us in order to consolidate the strengths and

weaknesses of different departments. This will promote a harmonious

tackling of the financial predicament of the public sector.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                           PAGE: 139 of 154




In conclusion, the Standing Committee on Public Accounts was

established by this House to ensure accountability, transparency and

implementation of the policies of the ANC, thereby ensuring a better

life for all. Ndiyabulela. Ke a leboga. [Thank you.] [Applause.]



Mr B E PULE: Hon Chairperson, departments and entities are always

caught up in the process of adaptation to an accountability chain.

This is indeed a real cause for concern.



The common denominator in accountability in departments is non-

compliance with accounting standards, and determination of the

correct values of disclosures in the financial statements in line

with applicable accounting practices as prescribed by National

Treasury, the Public Finance Management Act and other related

legislation. There are internal control weaknesses, non-existence of

generally accepted and recognised accounting practices, and, above

all, lack of capacity and skills within departments.



The Standing Committee on Public Accounts is always worried by

departments claiming that there is a lack of capacity or skills when

some of them have these skills, in fact, to defraud government.

Scopa is always told that there are measures in place when those

measures are never implemented. Heads of departments do not seem to

understand that they can only delegate the responsibility and not

the accountability, but, unfortunately, they delegate both. It is
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 140 of 154


high time that Scopa resolutions are taken seriously by this House.

I thank you. [Applause.]



Mr P A GERBER: Chairperson, it‟s always a privilege to address this

House. As members of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, we

don‟t often get the opportunity to address members from this podium.

I see it as a privilege, and I thank the ANC for that privilege. I

am sorry, hon Mike Ellis. I did not lose my voice, so you will have

to stand me for another five minutes.



In the 8 January statement by President Mbeki, he said, and I quote:

“We must do scrupulous monitoring ...” We have been trying very hard

to do that in this committee. Therefore, when you work with

taxpayers‟ money, there is no way that you can ask too many

questions.



I‟d like to touch on one or two of the resolutions that you‟ve got

before you, the one being the Land Bank. This once-proud institution

with so many historical successes has tragically been allowed to be

derailed by certain irresponsible officials. It‟s a sad day for

agriculture in South Africa that such a backbone of the industry has

been allowed to go to ruin. We must not complain if we go to the

shops and pay R100 a kilo for lamb chops or R70 for a pocket of

potatoes or R7 for a cabbage. For far too long, agriculture has been

used as a punch bag, and we as the ANC will not allow this.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 141 of 154


If you go and read the Hansard and the transcripts of Scopa

hearings, you‟ll see that there have been many, many warnings about

the Land Bank. Yet, every time when an institution or a department

gets into trouble, a turn around strategy is announced. We‟ve seen

so many turnaround strategies that we will become drunk by turning

around. If you turnaround twice, you‟re still going in the same

direction, so we will have to come up with better plans.



Why do we allow something to first end up in intensive care before

we intervene? By then it‟s too late, and the damage has been done.

When we had the hearing on the Land Bank, the chief financial

officer and his second in charge weren‟t even there. This was five

months ago. He was on stress leave, apparently out of the country.

We, therefore, welcome the steps that the Minister for Agriculture

and Land Affairs has taken to clean up the house of the Land Bank.

Congratulations, Minister.



In many cases, by just reading the annual reports and financial

reports of departments, many of those issues can be picked up there,

but if you go to the basement of this very Parliament - the rubbish

dump down here - many of the new annual reports, some still even

covered in plastic, haven‟t even been opened, and they are thrown

away. So, we in Scopa have to read more than 300 annual reports a

year, and I don‟t think it‟s too much for members to at least read a

couple of these reports.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 142 of 154


If you do read them, then please read the financial information at

the end of the report, all that information written in small font.

The most important information in life is written in small font. You

just have to look at your bank statements, your insurance policies,

your car insurance, and the back of your receipt. It‟s very

important information.



Then I‟d like to touch on the SA National Parks Board. We had a

visit to the Kruger National Park, and a hearing with SA National

Parks was very fruitful. One of the issues that we recommended in

our resolution that we got here this afternoon deals with the

Skukuza Airport, and I would like to read it to you. It reads:



 The committee noted the closure of the Skukuza Airport, and the

 financial loss that this has had on the park. The committee

 recommends that SANParks, together with the Minister, restarts the

 negotiations with the relevant role-players in that province to

 reopen this airport to restore the financial viability of regular

 scheduled flights as well as the icon status of the Kruger

 National Park, especially in the light of 2010.



I‟d like to touch on the Ngonyama Trust Board. This trust has been a

complicated problem child for a long time, and it will still take a

while before it comes clean due to the complexities of the issues

there. I‟d like to tell you that the landholdings have been a

problem there. For instance, there were huge differences between the
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 143 of 154


hectares recorded in the land register versus the hectares reflected

on the title deeds. The committee was informed during the hearing

that a qualified land surveyor had been appointed and that it was

expected that all the outstanding issues in this regard would be

sorted out by March 2007.



However, to deal with land, you need to physically survey it and for

that you need a surveyor who has graduated from university. There

were three universities that produced surveyors, namely the

University of Pretoria, the University of Durban and the University

of Cape Town. Currently, only two universities are producing land

surveyors and last year UCT only produced six, of which a couple

were poached by parastatals. So we‟ll always have a bottleneck with

land reform if we don‟t sort out this problem.



The big advantage, on the other hand, of the Ngonyama Trust, is that

its books are at least prepared by the Auditor-General. There are,

however, other trusts that are not audited by the Auditor-General

and I will read to you from the National Agricultural Marketing

Council:



 With the closure of the former agriculture control boards, the

 remaining assets were transferred to agricultural trusts with

 specific commodities. In April 2006, the Agricultural Marketing

 Council decided to conduct an investigation into the functioning
21 NOVEMBER 2007                         PAGE: 144 of 154


 of these trusts. This investigation was finalised in 2006, and the

 following recommendations were made:



    The NAMC should urgently arrange a meeting with the Ministerial

    trustees to table and discuss ... and an induction process

    should be developed for the trust. Meetings should be held at

    least once a year. Memorandums of understanding, etc.



However, the most important one is that the financial statements

should be audited by the Auditor-General, as those are mostly

statutory funds.



Now, the frightening thing about these agricultural trusts is that

there is more than R1,5 billion lying in there. These trusts are not

audited by the Auditor-General and it is a problem at this stage.

For instance, the Citrus Trust started off at R1,3 million. It‟s now

at R15 million. The Maize Trust had R264 million; it now has R685

million. The Oil and Protein Seeds Development Trust had R63

million; it has R146 million now, and so I can continue.



The committee itself had a wonderful year with its challenges and

what you see here before you today, although we are not exactly

doing justice to it by putting it so late in the day, has been the

product of a lot of hard work and a lot of long hours. I would like,

on behalf of the ANC, to thank all the committee members from all

the parties for their dedication and their hard work with these
21 NOVEMBER 2007                                      PAGE: 145 of 154


reports. I put these reports to you. Thank you very much.

[Applause.]



Debate concluded.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move:



     That the Reports be adopted.



Motion agreed to.



Reports accordingly adopted.



The House adjourned at 19:06.

                                        __________



                 ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS



ANNOUNCEMENTS



National Assembly and National Council of Provinces



The Speaker and the Chairperson



1.    Translations of Bills submitted
21 NOVEMBER 2007                                              PAGE: 146 of 154




    (1)   The Minister of Social Development



          (a)   Wetsontwerp of Tradisionele Gesondheidspraktisyns [W 20 – 2007] (National

                Council of Provinces– sec 76(2)).



          This is the official translation into Afrikaans of the Traditional Health Practitioners Bill

          [B 20 – 2007] (National Council of Provinces – sec 76(2)).



          (b)   Wysigingswetsontwerp op Keuse oor die Beëindiging van Swangerskap [W 21 –

                2007] (National Council of Provinces– sec 76(2)).



          This is the official translation into Afrikaans of the Choice on Termination of Pregnancy

          Amendment Bill [B 21 – 2007] (National Council of Provinces – sec 76(2)).



    (2)   The Minister of Communications



          (a)   Wysigingswetsontwerp op Elektroniese Kommunikasie [W 38 – 2007] (National

                Assembly – sec 75)



          This is the official translation into Afrikaans of the Electronic Communications

          Amendment Bill [B 38 – 2007] (National Assembly – sec 75).



    (3)   The Minister of Finance
21 NOVEMBER 2007                                               PAGE: 147 of 154


           (a)   Wetsontwerp op Belasting op Oordrag van Sekuriteite [W 44 – 2007] (National

                 Assembly – sec 77)



           This is the official translation into Afrikaans of the Securities Transfer Tax Bill [B 44 –

           2007] (National Assembly – sec 77).



           (b)   Wetsontwerp op die Administrasie van Belasting op Oordrag van Sekuriteite [W 45

                 – 2007] (National Assembly – sec 75)



           This is the official translation into Afrikaans of the Securities Transfer Tax

           Administration Bill [B 45 – 2007] (National Assembly – sec 75).



National Assembly



The Speaker



1.   Message from National Council of Provinces to National Assembly in respect of Bills

     passed by Council and returned to Assembly



     (1)   Bill passed by National Council of Provinces and returned for concurrence on 21

           November 2006:



           (a)   Education Laws Amendment Bill [B 33D - 2007] (National Assembly – sec 76(1)).
21 NOVEMBER 2007                                             PAGE: 148 of 154


            The Bill has been referred to the Portfolio Committee on Education of the National

            Assembly



TABLINGS



National Assembly and National Council of Provinces



1.   The Minister of Health



     (a)    Report and Financial Statements of the Compensation Commissioner for Occupational

            Diseases (CCOD) for 2005-2006 and 2006-2007, including the Reports of the Auditor-

            General on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006 and 2006-2007.



COMMITTEE REPORTS



National Assembly and National Council of Provinces


1.   Report of the Joint Standing Committee on Defence on Employment of SANDF to

     Uganda, dated 20 November 2007:




           The Joint Standing Committee on Defence, having considered the letter from the

           President on the employment of the South African National Defence Force (SANDF) to

           Uganda, referred to the Committee, reports that it has concluded its deliberations

           thereon.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                                                 PAGE: 149 of 154


2.   Report of the Mediation Committee on the Children’s Amendment Bill [B 19B – 2006] and [B

     19D – 2006] (Reprint) (with textual corrections) (National Council of Provinces – sec 76), dated

     21 November 2007:



         The Mediation Committee, having considered the Children’s Amendment Bill

         [B19B – 2006] and [B19D – 2006] (Reprint) (with textual corrections) (National

         Council of Provinces - sec 76), as well as the papers referred to it, reports the bill

         with further amendments [B 19E – 2006] and presents a mediated version

         [B19F – 2006].



National Assembly



1.   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Science and Technology on the Astronomy Geographic

     Advantage Bill [B 17 B – 2007] (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 21 November 2007:



         The Portfolio Committee on Science and Technology, having considered the Astronomy

         Geographic Advantage Bill [B 17 B – 2007] and the proposed amendments of the National

         Council of Provinces, referred to the Committee (Announcements, Tablings and Committee

         Reports, 20 November 2007, p 2332), reports the Bill with amendments [B 17 C – 2007].



Report to be considered.



2.   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Science and Technology on the Human Sciences

     Research Council Bill [B 16 B – 2007] (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 21 November 2007:
21 NOVEMBER 2007                                               PAGE: 150 of 154


         The Portfolio Committee on Science and Technology, having considered the Human

         Sciences Research Council Bill [B 16 B – 2007] and the proposed amendments of the

         National Council of Provinces, referred to the Committee (Announcements, Tablings and

         Committee Reports, 20 November 2007, p 2332), reports the Bill without amendments.



Report to be considered.



3.   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Health on the Choice on Termination of Pregnancy

     Amendment Bill [B21 – 2007] (National Council of Provinces – sec 76(2)), dated 20 November

     2007:



         The Portfolio Committee on Health having, considered the Choice on Termination of

         Pregnancy Amendment Bill [B21 – 2007] (National Council of Provinces – sec 76 (2)),

         referred to it, reports the Bill with amendments [B 21A-2007].



4.   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Health on the Traditional Health Practitioners Bill

     [B20 – 2007] (National Council of Provinces – sec 76(2)), dated 20 November 2007:



         The Portfolio Committee on Health having, considered the Traditional Health Practitioners

         Bill [B20 – 2007] (National Council of Provinces – sec 76 (2)), referred to it, reports the Bill

         without amendments.



5.   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Transport on the Transport Agencies General Laws

     Amendment Bill [B 27B- 2007] (National Assembly- sec 75), dated 21 November 2007:
21 NOVEMBER 2007                                            PAGE: 151 of 154


         The Portfolio Committee on Transport, having considered the Transport Agencies General

         Laws Amendment Bill [B 27B- 2007] (National Assembly-sec 75) and proposed

         amendments of the National Council of Provinces (Announcements, Tablings and Committee

         Reports, 29 October 2007), referred to the Committee, reports the Bill without amendments.



Report to be considered.



6.   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the

     Criminal Law (Sentencing) Amendment Bill [B15B─2007] (National Assembly – sec 75), dated

     21 November 2007:



         The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the

         Criminal Law (Sentencing) Amendment Bill [B15B─2007] (National Assembly – sec 75),

         and proposed amendments of the National Council of Provinces (Announcements, Tablings

         and Committee Reports, 15 November 2007, page 2302), referred to the Committee, reports

         the Bill without amendments.



Report to be considered.



7.   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the

     Criminal Law (Sexual Offences and Related Matters) Amendment Bill [B50B─2003]

     (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 21 November 2007:



         The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the

         Criminal Law (Sexual Offences and Related Matters) Amendment Bill [B50B─2003]
21 NOVEMBER 2007                                              PAGE: 152 of 154


         (National Assembly – sec 75), and proposed amendments of the National Council of

         Provinces (Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, 14 November 2007, page

         2244), referred to the Committee, reports the Bill with amendments [B50C — 2003].



Report to be considered.



8.   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on Draft

     Notice on Remuneration of Magistrates, dated 21 November 2007.



       The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the

       request for approval by Parliament of the Draft Notice on Remuneration of Magistrates in

       terms of section 12(3) of the Magistrates Act 1993, (Act No 90 of 1993), tabled on 19

       November 2007 and referred to it, recommends that the House in terms of section 12(3) of the

       Act, approves the said Draft Notice.

     Report to be considered.



9.   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on Draft

     Notice on Remuneration of Constitutional Court Judges and Judges, dated 21 November

     2007.



       The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the

       request for approval by Parliament of the Draft Notice on Remuneration of Constitutional

       Court Judges and Judges in terms of Judges Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act,

       2001 (Act No 47 of 2001), tabled on 19 November 2007 and referred to it, recommends that

       the House, in terms of section 2(4) of the Act, approves said Draft Notice.
21 NOVEMBER 2007                                             PAGE: 153 of 154


       Report to be considered.



10.    Report of the Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises on the Broadband Infraco Bill [B

       26B – 2007] (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 21 November 2007:



           The Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises, having considered the Broadband Infraco

           Bill [B 26B – 2007] and proposed amendments of the National Council of Provinces

           (Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, 07 November 2007, p 2058), referred to

           the committee, reports the Bill with amendments [B 26C – 2007].



       Report to be considered.



11.    Report of the Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises on the South African Express Bill

       [B 14B – 2007] (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 21 November 2007:



           The Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises, having considered the South African

           Express Bill [B 14B – 2007] and proposed amendments of the National Council of Provinces

           (Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, 07 November 2007, p 2058), referred to

           the committee, reports the Bill with amendments [B 14C – 2007].



      Report to be considered.



12.    Report of the Portfolio Committee on Education on the Education Laws Amendment Bill [B

       33D – 2007] (National Assembly – sec 76(1)), dated 21 November 2007:
21 NOVEMBER 2007                                              PAGE: 154 of 154


       The Portfolio Committee on Education, having considered the Education Laws Amendment

       Bill [B 33D – 2007] (National Assembly – sec 76(1)), amended by the National Council of

       Provinces and referred to the committee, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.



  Report to be considered.

				
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