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					19 February 2004                                         Page 1 of 200

               THURSDAY, 19 FEBRUARY 2004

                               ____



         PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

                               ____



The House met at 14:01.



The   Deputy   Speaker    took   the   Chair   and   requested

members to observe a moment of silence for prayers

and meditation.



ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see

col 000.



      FAST-TRACKING OF DIVISION OF REVENUE BILL



                   (Draft Resolution)



The Chief Whip of the Majority Party, moved:



 That the House ratifies the decision the Joint

 Subcommittee     of     the   Joint   Programme     Committee

 adopted on 18 February 2004 in accordance with
19 February 2004                                        Page 2 of 200


 Joint Rule 216(2), namely that the Division of

 Revenue Bill [B 4 - 2004] (National Assembly -

 sec    76)   be   fast-tracked    by,     where   necessary,

 shortening any period within which any step in

 the legislative process relating to the Bill must

 be completed, in order to make it possible for

 the Bill to be passed by both Houses during the

 current      term     of    Parliament     (Announcements,

 Tablings and Committee Reports, 18 February 2004,

 p 214).



Agreed to.



              R200 MILLION FOR ELECTRICITY



                     (Member's Statement)



Mr G P MNGOMEZULU (ANC): Madam Speaker, the recent

decision by the ANC-led Government to allocate a

further R200 million for the implementation of free

basic   electricity     is   commendable    indeed.   The   50

kilowatts free basic electricity per household will

provide much-needed social relief to those people

whose earnings fall on the lowest end of the scale
19 February 2004                                        Page 3 of 200


including those who earn nothing at all. In the

light of the apartheid socioeconomic backlog which

cannot be wiped out overnight, the steps that the

ANC Government continues to take demonstrate that

the     dawn   of   a   better    tomorrow    is     steadily

approaching.



Those incremental expenditures on the lives of our

people by this Government are further proof of the

ANC's    commitment     to   winning   the   fight    against

poverty and restoring the dignity of our people.



We call on all our people at various government

levels to work conscientiously to ensure that all

deserving members of our communities get access to

free basic electricity as soon as possible. We must

do this, not only as part of our work, but also as

a way of giving practical meaning to our humanness.

[Applause.]



         DA'S POLICY PROGRAMME ON JOB CREATION



                    (Member's Statement)
19 February 2004                                                      Page 4 of 200


Mr K M ANDREW (DA): Madam Speaker, the DA's policy

programme       for     positive       change          has    received      a

ringing    endorsement         from    Otto,       Count      Lambsdorff,

former Minister of economic affairs in the Federal

Republic     of        Germany.       He         reserved      particular

criticism    for       the    ANC's    policies          on   labour      and

economics,      describing          them    as    having      no   hope    of

producing       growth        and     jobs        in     South     Africa.

[Interjections.]



Under ANC rule unemployment has risen, and over 8

million    South       Africans       are    now       without     jobs    or

work. The DA understands that South Africa deserves

better    and    has     developed         policies       that     put    job

creation first. The DA's campaign and policies were

also enthusiastically endorsed by Mrs Helen Suzman,

human rights campaigner, and for 13 years the only

voice in Parliament speaking out against the NP's

oppression.



South    Africa       needs   real     change,         now.   Thank      you.

[Applause.]



                      HIJACKING OF AMBULANCES
19 February 2004                                                  Page 5 of 200


                       (Member's Statement)



Mr E T FERREIRA (IFP): Madam Speaker, the IFP has

learnt   with    shock     that   two      paramedics     in     Imbali

township,     Pietermaritzburg,            were     hijacked,         and

forced   to     have    sex   with    one    another.       A   female

paramedic was raped by one of the culprits. They

also robbed them of their belongings and fled with

the vehicle. According to media reports, this was

the   ninth   hijacking       incident      of    an   ambulance       in

eight months, and seven other cases of attempted

hijacking     of       provincial     ambulances         have      been

reported during the same period.



The IFP believes that this is the most traumatic

and   degrading    experience        any    human      being    can    be

subjected to. The fact is these paramedics now have

to face their families, colleagues and the public

knowing that a part of their dignity has been taken

away from them. This is also a huge blow to the

public   service,        especially        the     health       sector,

knowing how important their role in the community

is, especially the task of saving lives.
19 February 2004                                                  Page 6 of 200


It is also a wake-up call to us as a nation to

remember that certain people in our midst had to

sacrifice their lives and dignity to save people's

lives.    These      kinds    of    incidences     show    the    high

level of moral degeneration and lack of respect for

human dignity in our society. It also shows that we

still have a long way to go before we can fully say

that we are a truly free country, free from fear of

one's     life,      dignity       and   possessions       that    are

forcefully taken away from one. It is a clear sign

that    the     fight    against     women's     exploitation      and

abuse is far from over. We still have a long way to

go     before     the    most      vulnerable     people     in    our

communities can truly say they are safe.



                         INCOME TAX RELIEF



                        (Member's Statement)



Prof B TUROK (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, last year

our economy grew at a slower rate than the forecast

growth rate. Also, the strengthening of the rand,

coupled       with      the   impact     of     drought,    led     to

decreased company tax receipts. Despite all these
19 February 2004                                                Page 7 of 200


negative    developments,     in    this    years's    national

Budget,    the   ANC-led     Government     has    decided         to

provide a R4 billion personal income tax relief.

This will come as a very welcome intervention, and

will lighten the burden on especially those of our

people who occupy the lower rungs of the earnings

ladder.



We     commend    the     ANC-led     Government       on         its

intelligent management of our economy, as this has

allowed us space to pursue, consistently, poverty

alleviation programmes even under these difficult

economic times.



With    these    steady     but     sure    steps,         we     are

continually      giving     meaning    to    our      quest        to

progressively      expand     the     frontiers       of        human

fulfilment, inspired by the vision of creating a

people-centred society. [Applause.]



                            BUDGET



                   (Member's Statement)
19 February 2004                                            Page 8 of 200


Mnr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD (NNP): Adjunkspeaker, die

Nuwe Nasionale Party wil die Minister van Finansies

gelukwens met sy Begroting wat soos elke jaar van

uitstaande gehalte was. [Tussenwerpsels.]



Soos gewoonlik, is hy weer op die oomblik die mees

gewilde persoon in Suid-Afrika na die Begroting. Hy

kan verseker weet dat die kanse dat die agb Cassie

Aucamp   hom   moontlik    kan   vervang    as     Minister    van

Finansies, soos die Minister self in 'n onderhoud

oor die radio vanoggend genoem het, net so vergesog

is as die moontlikheid dat die agb Douglas Gibson

die volgende Minister van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit

sal wees.



Gun die Nuwe Nasionale Party egter die geleentheid

om een saak aan te roer wat nie in die Begroting

ter sprake gekom het nie. Dit is die kwessie van

pensioenarisse     en    dat   die    R125 000   belastingvrye

perk    die   afgelope    15   jaar    dieselfde    gebly     het.

Hierdie bepaling het glad nie tred gehou met die

stygende inflasiekoers nie, en die NNP voel dit het

tyd geword om 'n verhoging in hierdie verband te

maak.
19 February 2004                                             Page 9 of 200


Pensioenarisse trek reeds noustrop as gevolg van 'n

verlaging in die rentekoerse, en Suid-Afrika kan

nie bekostig om die wat nog selfonderhoudend is ook

afhanklikes te maak nie. Daarom doen die NNP 'n

dringende     beroep     op     die    Minister     om    hierdie

belastingvrye perk as 'n saak van dringendheid aan

te spreek. Ek dank u. [Tussenwerpsels.] [Applous.]

(Translation      of     Afrikaans       member’s        statement

follows.)



[Mr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD (NNP): Deputy Speaker, the

NNP wants to congratulate the Minister of Finance

on his Budget which was, as it is every year, of

excellent quality. [Interjections.]



As usual, he is once again at present the most

popular person in South Africa after the Budget. He

may   rest   assured     that    the   chances    that    the   hon

Cassie   Aucamp    could      possibly   replace    him    as   the

Minister     of   Finance,       as    the   Minister     himself

mentioned    in   a    radio    interview    this   morning,     is

just as ludicrous as the possibility that the hon

Douglas Gibson would be the next Minister of Safety

and Security.
19 February 2004                                               Page 10 of 200


Afford the NNP the opportunity, however, to touch

on one matter that was not raised in the Budget. It

is    the   matter      regarding    pensioners       and    the    fact

that the R125 000 tax-free limit has remained the

same for the past 15 years. This provision did not

in the least keep abreast with the rising inflation

rate, and the NNP feels that the time has come for

an increase in this regard.



Pensioners        are     already       suffering       financially

because of a decrease in the inflation rate, and

South Africa cannot afford also to render dependent

those who are self-sufficient. For this reason the

NNP    urgently    appeals     to    the   Minister     to    address

this tax-free limit as a matter of urgency. I thank

you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]]



              ACDP'S GROWTH IN KWAZULU-NATAL



                        (Member's Statement)



Ms C DUDLEY (ACDP): Deputy Speaker, the ACDP notes

with    interest        the   results      of   the     recent      by-

elections     held       on   11    February    in     ward    12    in
19 February 2004                                                              Page 11 of 200


Ladysmith,          KwaZulu-Natal,             in        which          the     ACDP

increased its share of the votes by 200%. That is

an increase from 4,1% in the year 2000 to 13,7%.

The    ACDP    notes       that     the      DA    vote       decreased        from

62,98% in the year 2000 to 44,29%, and that the ANC

did not field a candidate, but opted instead for

telling       their       voters       to    vote       for    the       New    NP.

Despite Ladysmith being an historical New NP seat,

the    New    NP,        together      with       the    ANC,       could      only

muster 22% of the vote. Seeing the ANC function as

a heart-lung machine for the New NP is a curious

sight.



The    increased          share     of      the     vote      for       the    ACDP

indicates           an     increased          awareness             among        the

electorate      to        turn    to     policies        promoting            family

values, social stability and economic growth. The

ACDP     would           like     to        acknowledge          the          active

participation of all those who came out to vote for

their     prospective             parties          and        all       officials

involved       in    making       this       by-election            a    success.

Thank you.



                            BUDGET INCREASES
19 February 2004                                              Page 12 of 200


                     (Member's Statement)



Mrs M N OLIPHANT (ANC): Madam Speaker, the Budget

proposal     tabled        yesterday      by    the   Minister      of

Finance tells the story of the ANC-led Government

that is deeply committed to creating a better life

for   all.   The     tabled      Budget     continues    to   expand

housing, water and community services. It extends

and improves spending on health services. Education

continues    to     make    up   a   larger     component     of   our

Budget. Continued investment in these areas strikes

at the heart of the second economy, characterised

by inadequate shelter, poverty, disease, uncertain

incomes and unemployment. The impact of all these

ills are felt more by women and children.



The African National Congress commends Government

on    this   balanced        Budget     which      expands    social

services,     and     at     the     same      time   strengthening

prospects for economic development, thus extending

the frontiers of freedom. I thank you. [Applause.]



                      SPENDING OF BUDGET
19 February 2004                                                        Page 13 of 200


                      (Member's Statement)



Mr M F CASSIM (PJC): Madam Deputy Speaker, thank

you very much. In over 300 years, for the very

first time, the poor, the destitute and the jobless

in    our       country      can       look      forward           to    real

expectations of jobs and a better life. Yesterday

the     Minister      of    Finance      announced        an       enormous

amount of money to alleviate the situation of the

poor and the down-trodden in our country.



I would like to ask this House to do what Malaysia

does,     and     that      is    to     allow     each     member         of

Parliament       to   take       responsibility        in      a    certain

geographical area for oversight of development in

order that this money is not left in the hands of

bureaucrats alone who may not be able to give the

projects the desired drive that would be needed. If

we followed the Malaysian example, we would be able

to utilise the full Budget that the Minister has

allocated in order to make sure that that which has

never happened in our country can happen, and that

the   paternalism          that    has    so     far   infected          this

country's politics can be overthrown and people can
19 February 2004                                                Page 14 of 200


enjoy liberty, not only in politics, but also in

terms of money, jobs and opportunity. Thank you.



      SECURITY GUARDS KILLED DURING CASH-IN-TRANSIT

                                  HEISTS



                         (Member's Statement)



Ms J T NTULI (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, a spate

of cash-in-transit heists hit the Lowveld on Monday

and Tuesday this week. In the process four security

guards have been killed within 14 hours. On Tuesday

police arrested a suspect in connection with this

crime near White River.



The ANC is deeply saddened by such unnecessary and

painful loss of life. We call on the Police Service

to     work    tirelessly          to      bring    to     book     the

perpetrators        of    these    heinous    criminal      acts.    We

also    call   on    communities        in   the   area    to   assist

police in their investigations.



Crime, particularly violent crime, has no place in

the    people-centered         society       we    are    working    to
19 February 2004                                          Page 15 of 200


create. Let us unite in the people's contract to

create      a   safe,    secure     and     peaceful     country

together. I thank you. [Applause.]



                WESTERN CAPE DESERVES BETTER



                      (Member's Statement)



Mnr W P DOMAN (DA): Adjunkspeaker, sedert die NNP

kiesers in die Wes-Kaap in die steek gelaat het

deur die provinsie aan die ANC uit te lewer, het

die slaagsyfer vir graad 10-leerders met 12% gedaal

teenoor toe die DA se Helen Zille in beheer van

onderwys was.



Minister Asmal staan daarop dat leerders doelbewus

nie in grade 10 en 11 teruggehou word nie. Die

NNP/ANC-regering in die Wes-Kaap moet dus voluit

verantwoordelikheid vir hierdie agteruitgang neem.



Ook   wat   behuising     betref,   vaar    die   Wes-Kaap    die

tweede      slegste     van   al     die     provinsies.      Die

provinsiale     ANC-minister,       LUK    Hangana,    gaan   nie

eens 40% van die begroting bestee nie. Dit sal die
19 February 2004                                              Page 16 of 200


eerste keer sedert 1994 wees dat die Wes-Kaap nie

sy volle begroting bestee nie. Eerstens, moeilike

nasionale        regulasies          en,         tweedens,        die

munisipaliteite van die Wes-Kaap wat nie oor die

vermoë beskik nie, laat 'n mens jou hande in die

lug gooi.



Maak die ANC dan nie die regulasies nie, en regeer

die NNP/ANC dan nie nou die meeste munisipaliteite

in die Wes-Kaap nie? Die Wes-Kaap verdien beter.

(Translation         of     Afrikaans      member’s       statement

follows.)



[Mr W P DOMAN (DA): Deputy Speaker, since the NNP

have let down the voters in Western Cape by handing

the province over to the ANC, the pass rate for

Grade 10 learners has declined by 12% as opposed to

when   the     DA's       Helen   Zille    was    in    control   of

education.



Minister     Asmal    insists      that    learners     should    not

deliberately be held back in Grades 10 and 11. The

NNP/ANC      government      in    the    Western      Cape   should
19 February 2004                                         Page 17 of 200


therefore     take     full    responsibility      for    this

degeneration.



Also, as far as housing is concerned, the Western

Cape is doing second worst of all the povinces. The

provincial ANC Minister, MEC Hangana, is not even

going to spend 40% of the budget. It will be the

first time since 1994 that the Western Cape does

not   spend   its    entire   budget.   Firstly,   difficult

national      regulations        and,     secondly,        the

municipalities of the Western Cape that do not have

the capability, makes one want to throw one's hands

up in the air.



Is it not the ANC that makes the regulations, and

is it not the NNP/ANC that is now governing most of

the municipalities in the Western Cape? The Western

Cape deserves better.]



            EMPLOYMENT IN NORTH WEST PROVINCE



                     (Member's Statement)
19 February 2004                                                       Page 18 of 200


Ms    P    K     MOTHOAGAE        (ANC):       Madam       Speaker,    on    13

February         2004    the      government         of    the    North    West

province recommitted itself to the implementation

of    the        Expanded         Public       Works       Programme.       The

provincial government reiterated its commitment to

the       use     of     labour-intensive                 methods     in    the

development of this infrastructure.



The fact that the government of that province has

put the issue of the fight against unemployment at

the   top        of    its   agenda       is    a    reflection       of    the

broader         commitment        of    the    ANC    to    addressing      the

basic needs of our people. We share the view of the

North West province that to improve on the gains we

made during the first decade of freedom, we must

now focus even more attention on the challenge of

creating work and fighting poverty.



We    urge       the    provincial         government         and   all     the

people of the North West to unite in a people's

contract to seek speedy movement in implementing

the       programmes         to        which    they       have     committed

themselves. We furthermore urge the leadership of

all the social partners, business, the workers of
19 February 2004                                                 Page 19 of 200


our   country       and   community        organisations       to   move

more speedily towards the realisation of the goals

of the Growth and Development Summit. I thank you.

[Applause.]



        CONSERVATIVE PARTY'S RETURN TO PARLIAMENT



                       (Member's Statement)



Mr J DURAND (New NP): Madam Deputy Speaker, allow

me the opportunity to congratulate the Conservative

Party    on    their      excellent    comeback     to       Parliament

through       the   DA.   The   DA    is    becoming     a    haven   to

right-wing      politicians.         One   only   has    to    look   at

their list of candidates for confirmation of this

fact.    At    this    stage    six    previously       prominent     CP

members are on the DA's list. [Interjections.]



In Mpumalanga, Rosier de Ville, former CP MP, is

fourth on the national list. In Gauteng, Manie van

Wyk, former CP member, is in ninth place, better

than a lot of DP liberals like Ryan Coetzee, Mike

Waters and Vincent Gore. On the Gauteng provincial

list the two former CP members are Philip de Wet
19 February 2004                                                    Page 20 of 200


and    Danie       Erasmus,        respectively        in    fifth       and

nineteenth         place.     In     the    Eastern         Cape    Gustav

Rautenbach, a far-right CP member, is eighth on the

national list, while Victor Strong, former CP/FF

member, is currently a DA member of Parliament.

So, Madam Speaker, the DA list speaks volumes with

regard        to     their         "fight        black"         strategy.

Furthermore, most of the black people in electable

positions on the DA list were put there by Tony in

a show of affirmative action, but the former CP

members were chosen to electable positions without

any help from Tony.



The New NP can only hope the notorious Boeremag is

not    the    military      wing     of    the   DA.    I    thank      you.

[Interjections.] [Applause.]



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: On a point of

order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon member is an

experienced member of this House and he should know

that     if   he     refers    to     the    hon       Leader      of    the

Opposition, he should refer to him in those terms.

He     is      not     "Tony"         to     that       hon        member.

[Interjections.]
19 February 2004                                          Page 21 of 200


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, please remember

that when we refer to one another, we do refer to

one another as hon members.



Mr J DURAND: Madam Speaker, I do apologise. It was

an omission on my side.



 RESTITUTION OF LAND TO THE PEOPLE OF RIEMVASMAAK



                    (Member's Statement)



Mr L M GREEN (ACDP): Madam Deputy Speaker, since

there is no debate in the House today regarding the

approval     by   Parliament   of   the     exclusion   of    land

from   the    Augrabies    Waterfall        National    Park,   I

propose that the House agrees to debate the issue

which is close to the hearts of the people of the

Northern Cape.



The restitution of land to the Riemvasmaak people

in the Northern Cape is a genuine victory, having

gone   through      legitimate      court     processes      which

resulted in the finding that the claim is valid.
19 February 2004                                                   Page 22 of 200


The       ACDP    congratulates        the   community      and    wishes

them well.



Nature         conservation       is    of    course     of   critical

importance and part of the deal concluded was an

assurance that this aspect would not be neglected

or frustrated. Naturally there are some concerns

but       provided     the    community      chooses   to     put       this

responsibility in responsible hands, these concerns

will cease to be.



The ACDP calls on the community to honour their

agreements and maximise the value of the leisure

and       hospitality        potential.      We   support     fair       and

reasonable         solutions      to    issues     surrounding          land

restitution. Thank you. [Applause.]



 INCREASE IN PENSION, DISABILITY AND CHILD SUPPORT

                             GRANTS INCREASED



                        (Member's Statement)



Mr    K    M     MOEKETSE:    Madam     Deputy    Speaker,        the    ANC

welcomes         the   decision    by     Government     to   increase
19 February 2004                                               Page 23 of 200


pension, disability and child support grants. This

demonstrates the continued commitment by the ANC-

led   Government       to   addressing      meaningfully            the

plight of the vulnerable sectors in our society.



We commend Government on its consistent pursuit of

achievable     and   sustainable       goals,    as     we   work    to

achieve   the    objectives       of   freedom        and    improved

standards of living and the quality of life for

all. We believe that the latest increment in grants

and pensions, taking effect in April, is one reason

among many for us to celebrate the first decade of

our freedom with pride. Thank you. [Applause.]



The   DEPUTY    SPEAKER:    The   time    for        statements     has

expired. I now come to Ministerial responses. Does

any   Minister       wish   to    respond       to     any   of     the

statements? No.



  LOCAL GOVERNMENT: MUNICIPAL PROPERTY RATES BILL



 (Consideration of Report of Portfolio Committee on

           Local and Provincial Government)
19 February 2004                                    Page 24 of 200


There was no debate.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy

Speaker, I move that the report be adopted.



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Are there any objections?



Mr M J ELLIS: What did he say?



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: He moves for adoption of the

report. [Interjections.]



Motion agreed to.



Report accordingly adopted.



  LOCAL GOVERNMENT: MUNICIPAL PROPERTY RATES BILL



                 (Second Reading debate)



The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT:

Madam   Deputy   Speaker   and   hon   members,   the   Bill

which is before the House today was characterised

by some as a controversial piece of legislation.
19 February 2004                                                        Page 25 of 200


Those     who      argue     against        its    introduction          have

advanced       a    detailed       critique        of   the     provisions

which seek to bring into the rates base areas which

were    previously         excluded.        Their       altruism        impels

them     to     denounce       this    uncaring         Government         for

wanting to rate the already impoverished people in

rural communities and the former black townships.



The poverty which pervades these areas, which the

opportunist         demagogues        are     apparently           concerned

about,       has    sociopolitical          origins      which      must    be

properly           explained.         The      pre-1994            political

dispensation adopted a policy which amounted to a

strict enforcement of residential segregation and a

placement of severe limits to the extent to which

the    resources        of   our      country      would      be    shared.

Property       rates,      then,     were    essentially           an   urban

mechanism for raising local revenue.



Although the then so-called central government did

have the capacity to collect taxes from people, it

had     no      intention       of     reversing          the      economic

exclusion of those of our people who lived in the

townships,         as   well    as     in    the    Bantustans.          What
19 February 2004                                                  Page 26 of 200


transfers      from    the     national       fiscus    went     to    the

Bantustan regimes and the urban Bantu councils were

meant to yield disproportionate economic benefit to

those who were running the Bantustan machinery and

the discredited urban Bantu councils. The majority

of our people were left with no access to revenue

that could be used to provide them with shelter and

affordable amenities such as water and sanitation,

electricity and refuse removal.



Calls for the retention of the status quo serve as

little more than loaded shorthand for maintaining

the legacy of poverty and gross inequalities of the

past.    As    hon     members       are   aware,      yesterday       the

Minister      of   Finance         announced    an     allocation       of

R47,3 billion to the local government sphere - an

increase of R3,9 billion over the next three years.

This    is    local     government's         share     of     nationally

raised       revenue    and     it    will     be    distributed        to

individual municipalities on an equitable base. The

raising of this revenue by national Government is

possible,       thanks        to     our      Constitution,          which

concentrates         sufficient       power    at    the      centre    to

collect       resources       and    distribute        them    for     the
19 February 2004                                                           Page 27 of 200


developmental          good    of    our       people       throughout         the

length and breadth of our country.



As the President said in the state of the nation

address, in the short space of ten years, we have

been able to provide 1,9 million housing subsidies

for   the      poor;    electrified            more    than    70%        of   our

country's       households;          provided          access        to     clean

water    to     an     additional          9    million        people,         and

provided       access     to        sanitation         to     63%     of       the

households in the country. In addition to this, we

have created a social security net which benefits

the     most     vulnerable          sectors          of     South        African

society,       namely    people       living          with    disabilities,

the aged, and children whose parents do not have

the means to support them.



These measures attest to the functional efficacy of

the key elements of the redistributive polity which

we have been creating and strengthening since 1994.

Our three spheres of Government are tied together

by a fiscal system that guarantees the transfer of

resources from surplus areas to deficit areas. Not

only is the idea to tackle the problem of income
19 February 2004                                                     Page 28 of 200


poverty, but also, we want to give our people in

their     local    areas,        assets     without         which      their

communities cannot become livable and sustainable

entities.



This explains why we have always insisted that our

legislative       initiatives       must       be    seen    within      the

context     of    our   ongoing         efforts       at     building     a

developmental       state.        The      ensemble          of     poverty

alleviation programmes, such as the Urban Renewal

Programme,        the     Integrated            Sustainable            Rural

Development        Programme,             the        Local        Economic

Development Fund and the Municipal Infrastructure

Grant is meant to create conditions for sustainable

development in the hitherto marginalised areas and,

more    importantly,         to     progressively             create       a

platform     for    the     balanced           development        of     our

national economy.



It is when programmes like these come to fruition

that we shall have created sources of municipal-

owned revenue to supplement what local government

currently    receives       by    way     of    an    equitable        share

from the nationally collected revenue. The process
19 February 2004                                                       Page 29 of 200


of     cultivating          a        revenue      base      for        poorer

municipalities will receive a major boost from the

more    than    R100   billion         which      Government         has     set

aside for the development of infrastructure. It is

expected that the public investments we are making

in    the   poverty-stricken            areas     will    throw       up     new

business opportunities for the private sector. As

the      private       sector           makes       use         of      these

opportunities,         it       will       also    be     focusing           its

energies       on   areas       of    Government         priority.          Such

infrastructure as we shall have created in these

areas will be maintained through the contributions

made by residents, individual or corporate.



As I have said earlier, we have witnessed increased

flows of allocations from the national fiscus to

local       government.          Municipalities            have         their

responsibility         of       taking         advantage        of      these

allocations to improve the infrastructural capacity

and to accelerate local economic development. The

Local Government: Municipal Property Rates Bill is

a     legislative      instrument           for    use     by        them    to

mobilise       community        contribution       to     this       process.

For     this     instrument           to    be    used     effectively,
19 February 2004                                                          Page 30 of 200


community       members         must      get       together   with       their

public    representatives              and      municipal      managers        to

adopt      implementation                 approaches           which           are

appropriate to their local conditions.



The drafters of this Bill were acutely sensitive to

the fact that municipalities have different sizes

of     rates    bases          and   are       differential         in     their

administrative            capacity        to    raise    revenue         due   to

them.    This       calls      for   steadfast          adherence        to    the

norms mandated by the legislation, and innovation

and flexibility with respect to implementation. For

instance,       whereas         it   may       be    prudent     to      exempt

certain categories, either of properties or people

from     rating,          in     order         to    stimulate        economic

activity       in    a      particular          municipal      area,          such

exemptions          may        not   be        necessary       in        another

municipal area. It is only when we understand these

intricacies           that           we         shall      desist             from

characterising this Bill as controversial. There is

nothing controversial in the Government's call on

people to join us in partnerships which are meant

to bring about a better life for all.
19 February 2004                                                       Page 31 of 200


Allow me to conclude by thanking the Chairperson,

Mr   Yunus     Carrim     and       members    of        the    Portfolio

Committee for Provincial and Local Government; the

Deputy        Minister        for      Provincial           and        Local

Government, Ms Ntombazana Botha; officials from the

department,            representatives               from          various

organisations      and     my       colleagues       -    both     in    the

Cabinet and in the South African Local Government

Association.      If     it    was    not     for    their        sterling

contribution of energy and insights, we would not

have such a sound piece of legislation before the

House today. I thank you. [Applause.]



Mr Y I CARRIM: Madam Deputy Speaker, comrades and

friends,      since     the     December      2000       elections,        a

fundamentally new system of local government has

begun to come into effect. Municipalities now have

a much greater service delivery and developmental

role.    To    fulfil    this       role,     they       have     to    have

adequate      revenue.    The       local   government          financial

system   is,     therefore,         being   reviewed.           There    are

many aspects to this review. The recent adoption of

the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management
19 February 2004                                                 Page 32 of 200


Act is part of the process of shaping a new local

government financial system.



The Local Government: Municipal Property Rates Bill

is    another     crucial         aspect.       In      fact,     local

government      currently    raises      over     90%    of     its   own

revenue.    About   20%     of    this     comes      from    property

rates. Of course, having revenue is not all. It's

how you manage and spend it that's crucial. The

more productive and efficient municipalities are in

managing    their   revenue,       the     more      their    case    for

increased revenue is strengthened. It is in terms

of the need for both more revenue and its better

management that the portfolio committee approached

the     Local   Government:        Municipal         Property     Rates

Bill.



It    is    certainly       the     most     challenging          Bill,

technically speaking, that the portfolio committee

has had to deal with since 1994. To process the

Bill effectively, the portfolio committee, as we

explained in our report in yesterday's ATC, held

extensive public hearings, workshops and briefing

sessions, and established several subcommittees to
19 February 2004                                                     Page 33 of 200


facilitate        the     ongoing     participation              of    key

stakeholders, especially from the public.



The portfolio committee deliberated on the Bill for

about 320 hours, and about half of this involved

the      active     participation          of        a     range        of

stakeholders,       including        the   representatives               of

Salga,    public        entities,     agriculture,             religious,

welfare    and    charitable    organisations,             independent

schools, municipal valuers and others. The Bill is

an outcome of protracted negotiations with a range

of key stakeholders.



From the response we've received so far, we believe

there's significant consensus on the core aspects

of the Bill. Certainly, the major differences that

surfaced at the first public hearings have largely

faded.     At      present,     municipalities                 use    very

different    rates       systems,     based     on       the    pre-1994

provincial ordinances.



With our new system of co-operative governance and,

in    particular,         our       intergovernmental                fiscal

relations system, the need for a certain level of
19 February 2004                                                      Page 34 of 200


uniformity        has          become    necessary.        A        national

framework within which municipalities shape their

own policies is the answer. This is what the Local

Government: Municipal Property Rates Bill provides.



The Constitution gives municipalities the power to

levy     rates        on        property.      However,        it    allows

Parliament       to    regulate         this   power.     So,       we   have

provided       for         a      national      framework,           without

undermining           the          constitutional          power           of

municipalities.            We    constantly     engaged     with         Salga

over this and are pleased to report that they fully

endorse the approach in the Bill.



In terms of the Constitution, municipalities may

extend     the    levying          of    rates,    as     the       Minister

explained, to categories of owners and properties

that   have,      until         now,    been    partially       or       fully

excluded from paying rates. Examples of this would

include the properties of public entities, farmers

and others in rural areas, religious, welfare and

charitable       organisations,          independent       schools        and

conservation bodies.
19 February 2004                                                     Page 35 of 200


Stakeholders       from   these    and    other     sectors           made

strenuous      representations            to     the            portfolio

committee for the retention and even extension of

these benefits. Some of them presented formidable

arguments.



The portfolio committee's response was to find a

balance between the need for municipalities to have

adequate revenue to fulfil their constitutionally

mandated    responsibilities        and    the    need          to   avoid

levying rates in a way that debilitates categories

of property owners.



The   portfolio     committee     also    sought       to       strike    a

balance      between        recognising           the            valuable

developmental goals served by certain categories of

owners, for example the public entities and welfare

organisations, and the need to ensure that it is

national     and    provincial      government,             not      local

government, that bear the major cost of the role

served by these agencies.



The   committee      sought,      too,    to     find       a     balance

between the need for a coherent national framework
19 February 2004                                                         Page 36 of 200


for     property        rates     that        will     foster       national

macroeconomic             balances           and     the          need     for

municipalities to shape their own rates policies

through consultation with key stakeholders. So it

is    that,       while    municipalities            have    considerable

latitude      to    decide       on    rates       according       to    local

circumstances, there are provisions in the Bill for

the national Government to sensitively intervene,

should        a     municipality's            decisions           on     rates

undermine          national            economic        policies.           The

Constitution allows for this.



Examples of this include the right of the Minister

for      Provincial             and      Local         Government,          in

consultation with the Minister of Finance, to limit

the percentage of rates increases. This could apply

to    all   or     to    specific       categories      of    properties.

Moreover, any sector of the economy could, after

consulting with municipalities and Salga, approach

the Minister to cap rates increases if they can

prove       that        their     rates        bills        are     entirely

unreasonable.           The     onus    is    on     them    to     make    an

irrefutable case.
19 February 2004                                              Page 37 of 200


Municipalities      may    also    not   rate     nonresidential

properties   unduly       highly    compared      to   residential

properties, nor can they ureasonably discriminate

between categories of nonresidential properties. In

consultation     with     the   Minister     of    Finance,     the

Minister for Provincial and Local Government can

prescribe ratios in this regard, if necessary. The

Minister     also       can       provide      guidelines       for

municipalities to levy rates in a way that does not

undermine national economic policies. He may also

provide a national framework, consistent with the

Bill, on rates exemptions, rebates and reductions.



Of course, all these interventions have to be done

after    consultation      with    Salga.    While      the   Local

Government: Municipal Property Rates Bill provides

a coherent national framework, many of the concrete

decisions on rates can only be made at municipal

level.     The   committee         feels     it's       important,

therefore, that stakeholders are active in their

municipalities      and    contribute       to    shaping     their

rates policies. Engaging with Parliament to shape

the content of the Bill or rushing to the Minister
19 February 2004                                                 Page 38 of 200


for relief cannot be a substitute for engaging with

the municipalities.



The committee gave considerable attention to what

should   be    the     basis    for    valuation.            Among    the

options explored were a land-only valuation, land

and   improvement        at    variable       rates,          land    and

improvement    at    a   uniform      rate    and    annual      rental

value.   The    department       was     asked          to    undertake

further empirical studies regarding these options,

and   they    were   discussed        with    a     wide      range   of

stakeholders     and     academic       and       other       technical

experts, both South African and others.



The inputs by the department and the vast majority

of    those    consulted       supported          the        basis    for

valuation as being the market value of land and

improvements at a uniform rate. The majority in the

portfolio committee agreed with this. In any case,

this is a trend internationally.



Instead of providing for blanket exclusions from

rates for categories of owners of properties, the

portfolio committee strengthened provisions in the
19 February 2004                                                      Page 39 of 200


Bill    dealing    with       the    phasing-in         of     rates;     the

requirement       for     municipalities           to     consider,         in

their    rates     policies,         the      effects     of      rates     on

categories of owners and properties; negotiations

between categories of owners and properties and the

municipalities and Salga, and consultation between

the Minister and Salga on the effects of rates on

categories of owners and property.



The    committee    stresses            that    the     Bill      does    not

prescribe    that       property        rates    must    be     levied      in

traditional authority areas. Each municipality must

decide    for    itself       on    this.      However,      it    will    be

difficult to levy property rates in communal areas,

unless property is registered in the name of an

individual or community.



Even     where    there       is    individual          ownership,        the

property has to be first valued. The owner is not,

in any case, liable for rates, unless the property

exceeds      R15        000        in       value.       Land         reform

beneficiaries,      moreover,           are     excluded       from      rates

for 10 years. Thereafter, municipalities have to
19 February 2004                                                   Page 40 of 200


phase their rates in over three years. With the

MEC's approval, this can be extended to six years.



For most municipalities, the cost of valuation and

administration         of   rates    will    exceed      any      revenue

derived        from     these     properties.        The     portfolio

committee       does    not     believe     that   the     levying    of

property rates in traditional authority areas is

significantly on the agenda for a long while to

come.



As the range of properties to be valued, in terms

of this Bill, have been significantly increased,

questions have been raised about the capacity of

property valuers in this country. Moreover, with

the   advances         in   technology,      there    are      constant

changes in valuation techniques and methods. The

portfolio       committee       believes    that     the    department

and     Salga     should        inquire     further        into    this,

facilitate greater awareness amongst municipalities

and     take     appropriate        steps    to    facilitate        the

development of the requisite capacity of valuers.
19 February 2004                                                   Page 41 of 200


The Bill specifically excludes properties, in part

or whole, from being subjected to property rates.

For example, the first R15 000 of all residential

properties and 30% of the value of public service

infrastructure are excluded from rates. Land reform

beneficiaries, as explained, are also excluded from

rates   for    a     substantial       period.      That    represents

revenue foregone by municipalities. The committee

believes that the national Government should, over

time, consider this when deciding on the allocation

of    money    to    local   government        from     the   national

fiscus.



The Bill represents a significant shift from the

current property rates regime. The DPLG and Salga

are asked to embark on a massive public education

programme on the content and the implications of

the    Bill.    Many     municipalities        do     not     have    the

capacity to implement this Bill. The DPLG and Salga

will have to pay considerable attention to this.



Ultimately,         decisions   about     levying       rates   reside

with    municipalities.         This    Bill     will      bring     into

effect a new property rates system. As with much
19 February 2004                                                    Page 42 of 200


else of the new local government system, the new

property       rates   system         has    to        be       phased     in

appropriately through consultation with a range of

stakeholders.



The    committee    has     sought     to    strike         a   series     of

balances between the needs of municipalities and a

range of key stakeholders. Municipalities are urged

to exercise their power to levy rates both in the

spirit and the letter of the law. The department

and    Salga    have   a    crucial      role     to    play      in     this

regard, and we urge them to do so. Members of our

porfolio committee and MPs generally can also play

a role, and must do so.



The portfolio committee expresses appreciation for

the    manner     in   which      a    range       of       stakeholders

interacted      with   us    in    finalising           the      Bill.     We

express our gratitude to the Minister and Deputy

Minister, and express our sincere appreciation to

Ms Jackie Manche, Mr Mzilikazi Manyike, Dr Peter

Vaz, Mr Gerrit Grové, Mr Joe Dube and Dr Petra

Bouwer of the department, and Mr Ben Dorfling and

Ms    Shiva    Makotoko     of   Salga      for   the       considerable
19 February 2004                                                     Page 43 of 200


work they did in processing the Bill through their

interaction        with         the        committee          and       many

stakeholders.



The committee also acknowledges the assistance of

Mr Nico McLachlan and Ms Zora Ebrahim of ODA. I

think they are somewhere in the gallery. Also, our

thanks,      as   ever,     to    our       outstanding         committee

secretary, Mr Llewellyn Brown and his assistant Ms

Bulelwa      Madikane,      and       a     person      who     is   never

mentioned, actually, the ANC study group secretary,

Ms Gadijah Salie.



Finally, I should tell the Minister, I don't know

what    he   or    the    Deputy          Minister     were     doing    on

Valentine's       Day,    but    his       entire      department,      not

least   Ms    Jackie      Manche,         was   here    processing       the

Bill. They have performed outstandingly, and we are

deeply grateful to them. Thank you. [Applause.]



Mr G A J GROBLER: Deputy Speaker, we spent many

hours   on    this     Bill,     but       if   it     wasn't    for    our

chairperson       being    such       a     long-winded       person      we

would have saved over 50 hours of what we spent on
19 February 2004                                            Page 44 of 200


the Bill. The report you read here was well read,

Mr Chairperson.



On a more serious note, the committee gave ample

opportunity        to   these   stakeholders,      who    have    an

interest   in      this   difficult     and   highly     technical

Bill, to offer their inputs. At times emotions ran

a bit high, but show me a person or organisation

that will volunteer to pay rates and taxes - it's

obvious.      As   with   any   Bill,    it   is   difficult      to

satisfy everybody.



The first draft of the Bill could not be described

as an example of a well thought-through Bill. The

Department of Provincial and Local Government, but

with the guidance of the portfolio committee and

the many valuable inputs from stakeholders, we as a

team managed to arrive at a much more acceptable

Bill than the one that originally landed on our

desks.



Salga is not the most efficient organisation I have

ever   come    across,     except   for   arranging       the    so-

called workshops in every corner of South Africa
19 February 2004                                                       Page 45 of 200


with   the    main     purpose    of    squandering             rates    and

taxpayers'      money     on     outings,        as        we     recently

discovered in Cape Town. However, I must say that

officials       of      the      body        contributed               beyond

expectation during the deliberations on this Bill,

and I see some of them in the gallery. At times, I

got the impression that the department was at a

total loss, because changes to clauses were made on

a continual basis, presumably under pressure from

certain      stakeholders,        but    I      think           more    from

politicians in the ruling party.



This   Bill    has     many    positive        elements          regarding

property      rates;    well-debated          and     well        thought-

through      clauses    that     objectively        consider            every

sector that is operating within the boundaries of

municipalities.        Literally       hundreds       of    inputs        and

discussions took place between the committee and

stakeholders, as well as with experts from overseas

and local experts on property rates, ranging from

agriculture,     religion,        welfare       and    public-sector

infrastructure       institutions,        to    name       but     a    few.

Nobody can produce a perfect Bill, and this Bill is

no exception. However, this Bill is not cast in
19 February 2004                                                Page 46 of 200


stone, I believe, and I think that, as with other

Bills, amendments can be looked at in the future.



On    a    positive       side,     religious          organisations

received    a   very      sympathetic      from    the    portfolio

committee. Not only is the actual place of worship

of    religious     organisations        excluded       from    paying

property rates, but also the official residence of

an    appropriate      office-bearer        of    that     religious

community.      I   can    just     mention       here    that    for

election purposes, the DA tried to include Ellis

Park,     FNB   stadium     and     Newlands       as    places    of

worship, but we were unsuccessful in that regard.

[Laughter.]     Other      organisations         and    institutions

were looked at, and I think they will be dealt with

by my colleagues later in this debate.



Die DA het reeds gedurende die bespreking van die

wetsontwerp     aangedui     dat    ons    nie    ten    gunste    van

sekere      toegewings,           soos      vervat         in      die

konsepwetgewing wat voor ons dien, is nie. Derhalwe

kan die DA nie die wetsontwerp in sy huidige vorm

ten     volle   steun     nie.     Die    toegewings       aan    die

openbare    sektor-instellings,           waar    'n    korting    van
19 February 2004                                                    Page 47 of 200


30%     toegestaan       kan      word,     gee    in    onregverdige

voordeel aan dié instellings teenoor andere, soos

privaatinstellings. Telkom is 'n voorbeeld. Telkom

betaal    reeds      nie     enige    vergoeding        op    die    grond

waarop    hulle      byvoorbeeld       hul    torings        oprig    nie,

maar instellings soos MTN, Vodacom en al die ander

moet     ongelukkig         die    vergoeding      betaal.      Ons     is

derhalwe teen dié gedagte gekant. (Translation of

Afrikaans paragraph follows.)



[The DA has already indicated during the discussion

of the Bill that we are not in favour of certain

concessions as contained in the draft legislation

before us. Therefore the DA cannot fully support

the Bill in its current form. The concessions made

to public sector institutions, where a rebate of

30%     can     be    granted,        unjustly        benefit        these

institutions          over        others,     such       as     private

institutions. Telkom is a case in point. Already

Telkom doesn't pay any compensation for the land on

which    they    erect      their    towers,      for    example,      but

institutions         such    as    MTN,     Vodacom     and    all     the

others unfortunately must pay the compensation. We

are therefore against this idea.]
19 February 2004                                                     Page 48 of 200


The DA, as well as the agricultural sector, are

particularly concerned with the problem which may

arise in devising a proper definition of "bona fide

farmer". We believe that reverting to farmers only,

coupled with the application of, I think, clause

3(2)(a), would be more acceptable. However, this

request from the DA and the agricultural sector was

accepted at first, but at a later stage rejected by

the        majority        party's         committee            members.

Unfortunately, special treatment in terms of the

Bill has consequently also excluded game farming as

an agricultural activity. It's mind-boggling, but

it happened.



The   DA    disagrees     with     the    prescription         of    rates

based on either the improved value of the property

or a flat rate for a property within a specified

valuation      band.      The      DA    believes        in     allowing

municipalities        a    local        option    with        regard    to

determining the tax base to be used, including the

improved     capital      value,    the    land    and    the        annual

rental      value.        The      DA     disagrees           with     the

implementation of a flat rate, given that it does

not encourage the development of a property market
19 February 2004                                                 Page 49 of 200


in those categories. It is notoriously difficult to

phase this out, but we agree with the proviso that

when a flat rate is applied, it should only be

applied at the lowest end of properties valuated.



However, a major concern, hon Minister, apart from

the problems that we have with some clauses in the

Bill   as   the    DA,   is   still     the    fact       that    many

municipalities      do     not   have        the     capacity,      or

sometimes the will, to implement a Bill; a problem

with   many      other    laws   too.        We've       seen    that.

Stakeholders will have to make use of the necessary

mechanism built into this Bill to safeguard their

interests.      Therefore,    they     must    become       actively

involved    in    the    activities     of    their       respective

municipalities.     Provision     is    made       for    mechanisms

such as petitions to the MEC and the Minister if

they feel that the municipalities have not fully

complied with the norms and standards provided in

this Bill. Therefore, it is very necessary for them

to participate in the ward committees, etc.



Die    gebrek     aan    belangstelling        van       die     ander

politieke partye in dié belangrike wetsontwerp was
19 February 2004                                               Page 50 of 200


opvallend. Nie een opposisieparty - ek sê weer -

nie een, behalwe die DA, het die afgelope maande

aan die proses deelgeneem nie. G'n wonder dat die

NNP se leier, Van Schalkwyk, 'n growwe onwaarheid

oor 'n radioprogram gaan staan en kwytraak het as

gevolg van sy onkunde nie, want sy man, Durand, was

nie daar nie.



Volgens hom, dis nou Van Schalkwyk, het die NNP

daarin geslaag om die ANC te oorreed om die wet -

luister na die woord "wet" - op eiendomsbelasting

"geammendeer"     te    kry     -   wat     'n    verkragting    van

Afrikaans in die eerste plek - om die boere, nie

boerderygemeenskap             nie,          teen         onnodige

eiendomsbelasting      te     vrywaar.      Asseblief,    mnr    Van

Schalkwyk, ek hoop u luister. Daar is nog nie 'n

wet   nie,   en        ons     is     nog        besig   met     die

konsepwetgewing, en ons debatteer dit eers vandag.

So asseblief moenie ... Laat ek dit liewer nie sê

nie. As daar wel 'n party is wat werklik omgee vir

die boerderygemeenskap - luister, mnr Odendaal ...

[Tussenwerpsels.]            (Translation          of    Afrikaans

paragraphs follows.)
19 February 2004                                                        Page 51 of 200


[The     lack      of      interest        by    the       other     political

parties in this important Bill was remarkable. Not

a singe opposition party                    -    I repeat        -   not one,

except the DA, participated in the process during

the    past     few       months.     It    is       no    wonder    that   the

leader of the NNP, Van Schalkwyk, uttered a blatant

untruth       on      a    radio      programme            because    of    his

ignorance, because his man, Durand, had not been

there.



According to him, that is Van Schalkwyk, the NNP

succeeded in convincing the ANC to have the law -

listen    to       the     word     "law"        -    on     property      rates

"amended" - what a violation of Afrikaans in the

first    place        -    to     exempt        the       farmers,   not    the

farming community, from unnecessary property taxes.

Please, Mr Van Schalkwyk, I hope you are listening.

There is no law yet, and we are still busy with the

draft    legislation,           and    we       are       only   debating    it

today. So please don't ... Let me rather not say

it. If there is a party that is really concerned

about the farming community - listen Mr Odendaal

... [Interjections.]]
19 February 2004                                         Page 52 of 200


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members!



Mnr G A J GROBLER: ... en die ander organisasies,

dan is dit die DA. Ons was dáár waar dit saak maak.

G'n ander party het gekom nie. En as ek so na julle

klein      groepie   kyk      aan    my     linkerkant     ...

[Tussenwerpsels.] [... and the other organisations,

it is the DA. We were there where it mattered. No

other party came. And if I look at your small group

on my left ... [Interjections.]]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!



Mnr G A J GROBLER: ... dan kan ek net sien julle is

besig om te verdwyn. Julle gaan verdwyn. En julle

is nie eers besig om te sterf nie. Julle is klaar

dood. [Tussenwerpsels.] [... then I can see you are

disappearing. You are going to disappear. And you

are     not   even   dying.    You    are    already     dead.

[Interjections.]]



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon member your time has

expired.
19 February 2004                                                      Page 53 of 200


Mnr G A J GROBLER: Suid-Afrika verdien beter! Baie

dankie.        [Tyd       verstreke.]       [South     Africa       deserves

better! Thank you very much. [Time expired.]



Mr    J    M    NGUBENI:        Madam     Deputy     Speaker        and    hon

members, municipalities derive their powers to levy

property        rates      directly       from   section      229    of    the

Constitution. However, these powers are subject to

regulation in terms of national legislation.



The Local Government: Municipal Property Rates Bill

before         us   today       is   a    perfect      instrument         that

progressively gives effect to these constitutional

provisions. The transformed developmental system of

local government is geared towards a more efficient

and       responsive         system       of     governance        that     is

transparent, accountable and delivery-orientated.



In    addressing            the      huge      challenges         faced     by

municipalities,              property          rates        represent        a

significant          and    a     major     source     of   revenue       that

supports sustainable municipalities to fulfil their

priorities          and    constitutional         obligations.        It    is

unavoidable          that    the     current      system     of     property
19 February 2004                                                       Page 54 of 200


rating     is    characterised          by     the       four    different

ordinances       of    the     old   order.        Provinces         must   be

reformed        in    order     to    allow        municipalities            to

broaden     their        tax     base        and     have        a     stable

predictable revenue source within the discretionary

control of municipal councils.



This   Local         Government:     Municipal           Property      Rates

Bill   will      bring    about      stability,          sustainability,

certainty,       a    uniform     rating      system       and       promotes

local economic development. This will enable us to

push     further         the    frontiers           of     poverty          and

adequately intervene to address the imbalances of

the apartheid system.



 Historically,            property           rates        were        levied

differently in the various provinces. Even today,

provinces have their own systems of valuation and

rating.     Currently,         municipalities            use     different

valuation and rating methods, that is land only or

land and land improvements at the same or different

rates.
19 February 2004                                                  Page 55 of 200


The Local Government: Municipal Property Rates Bill

mandates    a    simpler    uniform       rating    system      in    the

whole country and a general basic valuation that is

market-related,      that     is    the    amount      the     property

will have realised if sold on the date of valuation

in the open market by a willing seller to a willing

buyer.



This system of rating is progressive as it will

guarantee every category of owners of properties to

receive    the    same     fair    treatment       with    regard     to

their properties. This Bill will not necessarily

effect any dramatic increase or decrease, as that

is   influenced      by     the     normal      regular        property

revaluation and actual rating municipalities set.

In fact, there are checks and balances that protect

all categories of properties. For example, the rate

policy of the council, at its formulation, demands

community participation and consultation with all

stakeholders;      the     rate     policy      also      takes      into

account    the    impact    of     rates   on   property        owners;

there     is     limitation         on     levying        of      rates;

constitutionally         impermissible       rates;       limits       on

annual increases of rates; compulsory phasing in of
19 February 2004                                                        Page 56 of 200


certain rates and representation to the Minister if

any sector is adversely affected.



Apart     from    the     checks     and        balances      mentioned,

municipalities            will      still             exercise           their

constitutional right to grant exemption or rebates

and reductions. Whilst the right to levy property

rates     is     derived     from        the     Constitution,             the

Constitution            restrains          municipalities                 from

exercising their fiscal powers in a way that will

materially       and    reasonably       prejudice          the    national

economy,       economic      activities           across          municipal

boundaries,        the     national           mobility        of        goods,

services, capital or labour.



Taking     into        account      this        provision          of     the

Constitution to demonstrate the progressiveness of

this Bill, let us pay special attention to these

two     important       categories,        that        is    the        Public

Service        infrastructure        and         the        category        of

agricultural              property.              Public             Service

infrastructure,          according       to     the    present          rating

system, was either not rated in some municipalities

and     inconsistently           rated     in     others.          In     this
19 February 2004                                                         Page 57 of 200


proposed        uniform      rating       system,      Public           Service

infrastructure            will     be     subjected          to        property

rating.       It    is    morally       incorrect      to    rate       public

schools and hospitals, for instance, and exclude

entities such as power stations or railways.



Public     Service          infrastructure,           such        as     public

roads, water, dams, power stations, liquid fuel,

national             railway            systems,            communication

infrastructure and runways at airports are meant to

service the public. As you may have noticed, these

are    very     important        and    critical      elements          of   our

economy.



This    Public       Service      infrastructure            is    linked      to

entities such as Eskom, Telkom, Umgeni Water, Rand

Water     and       the    others,       including      municipal            and

Government entities.



The    portfolio          committee      has   for     the       past    eight

months    engaged         all    these    stakeholders,            including

organised agriculture. Workshops, public hearings,

private       and    direct      meetings      were    held.       In     fact,

representations continued until this past Sunday.
19 February 2004                                                                 Page 58 of 200


These extraordinary maximised engagements resulted

in   a      Local    Government:             Municipal          Property         Rates

Bill        that      has         balanced              concessions.             These

concessions demonstrate the commitment of the ANC

to stabilising and growing this economy. And truly

so, as the ANC leads, it is obliged to enter into a

contract       with        the    people           to    fight       poverty       and

create jobs.



Taking into account the representation made by the

stakeholders,              the        committee              agreed         to     the

following:          That    30%       of     the    market          value    of    the

publicly       controlled             Public       Service          infrastructure

will     be    excluded          from      rating.       The        definition       of

Public        Service        infrastructure                   was     widened       to

include       ``additional              aspects         of     water,        energy,

communications and court infrastructure''. The Bill

allows the Minister to prescribe valuation methods

if     the     the      market             value        of     Public        Service

infrastructure cannot be determined.



We     do     not    have        to     forget          the    role     of       these

stakeholders          in    ensuring           the       provision          of    free

basic       services        such        as     water,          electricity         and
19 February 2004                                                 Page 59 of 200


sanitation. The ANC is committed to the provision

of free basic services such as water, electricity

and     sanitation.        That     is    the     reason        we    are

consciously excluding the 30% market value of the

Public      Service     infrastructure,         which    will    enable

these entities to continue to provide these basic

services. At the same time, we need to ensure that

the    tariffs      from   these    entities      are    not     unduly

passed to consumers because there are checks and

balances      and   concessions      that       ensure   that        undue

burden is not placed on them.



It is interesting and ironic to note that the DA is

opposed to this exclusion. The President is correct

-     the   DA    wants    the     democratic      state    to       stop

providing        such   basic     goods   and    services       to    the

people. The DA is opposed to this exclusion because

the    recipients       are   largely     the    poor,     black      and

marginalised.        [Interjections.]       Yes,    the    President

is correct. What these clowns want is the faithful

return to the old system of unregulated capitalism.

They hide their agenda of reversal of change with

phrases such as ``flexible market, free market, and

minimal state interference''.
19 February 2004                                                          Page 60 of 200


Just imagine, the so-called champions of unfettered

free markets are opposed to the general basis of

valuation when it comes to their properties, which

is   simply     a     market      value.     They    hide       their       true

colours,        yet         they      are        simple             right-wing

conservatives.



Organised       agriculture         and     forestry      was       concerned

that   municipalities             might     impose       an    undue      rates

burden     on       them,      as    this     would           affect        their

viability.       In    addressing         this   concern            raised    by

this sector, as well as the need to broaden the

rates base of municipalities, the committee made

the following concessions: That municipalities need

to take into account the effects of the rate on the

contribution          by      agriculture;           that           the     Bill

prescribes that annual crops and grown timber that

have     not    yet     been        harvested       at        the    time     of

valuation must be disregarded; that any sector of

the economy can request the Minister to evaluate

evidence        that        the      rate     levied           on      it     by

municipalities          is        materially        and        unreasonably

prejudicing the matters mentioned earlier.
19 February 2004                                           Page 61 of 200


These are the results of constructive engagement

with organised agriculture, represented by Agri-SA,

National African Farmers Union, SA Allied Workers'

Union, Grain-SA and others. The importance of this

sector in food production cannot be overemphasised.

However, the agricultural sector should not pretend

to be a generic of do-gooders. They must impress

upon   their     constituency     that   farmworkers'      rights

and wellbeing are not negotiable. Proper housing

and health facilities are taken into account when

formulating rates policies. This Bill is of mutual

benefit to all stakeholders and municipalities and

will ensure a better life for all.



In conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker, interestingly,

the DA is explicitly opposed to a minimum wage for

farmworkers.       However,       they      were   unashamedly

pestering the committee to give concessions to game

farmers.   To    them    game   is   more    important   than   a

minimum    wage        for    farmworkers.     I   thank    you.

[Interjections.] [Applause.]



Inkosi M W HLENGWA: Hon Madam Deputy Speaker and

hon    members    of    the   National   Assembly,   when     our
19 February 2004                                                 Page 62 of 200


democratic system of government was ushered in in

1994, there were certain things that the people of

South    Africa        did     not    anticipate      would     change

negatively       in    their    lives,     but    there    were     also

quite a number of expectations.



The people were excited about this freedom they had

achieved. Some people even believed it when they

were told that the time for manna had arrived; some

people even thought that freedom would come with

free service delivery.



Political       parties      promised     a     number    of    things.

People    were        told     that     their     areas     would     be

developed by Government free of charge, especially

those in rural areas, the most underdeveloped. They

were made to believe that the ushering in of wall-

to-wall municipalities would put them on par with

urban    areas    in    terms    of     development       and   service

delivery,       and     that     their    Government        would     be

footing the bill for them.



 Now     that     we      are        debating     this     piece      of

legislation, the cat is out of the bag. If the
19 February 2004                                                       Page 63 of 200


people     in    the        rural     areas       want      their      areas

developed, they themselves will have to foot the

bill by paying rates. This is clearly stated in the

memorandum to this Bill, and I quote:



 Property        rates       represent        a     major      source       of

 revenue for local government, and is as such the

 main      source      of    discretionary           tax    revenue         for

 municipalities.             Property        rates    are          especially

 important in urban areas, and historically rates

 were levied only in towns and cities. Rating was,

 historically,          done    differently           in    the      various

 provinces. Each of the former four provinces had

 their     own    legislation         and     their      own       system    of

 valuation and rating. As noted in the White Paper

 on Local Government, a simpler and more uniform

 system     is    needed       as     part    of     local     government

 reform.



Traditional communities in the past were able to

put their hands together and start a project. That

is   how   schools,         clinics    and     crèches       were      built.

After completing a particular project, they would

stop   paying     until       another        need     for      a    facility
19 February 2004                                            Page 64 of 200


arose. However, now they are going to be paying

forever should the          municipality convince them to

pay rates.



This   Bill    deals   with   both    urban    and    traditional

areas,   and    this   is   deliberate.     We   said    communal

land   could    not    be   valued,   let     alone    at   market

value, which is the basis of the rating system,

because by definition it could never have a market

value since it could never be sold.



The Bill provides that municipalities need not rate

properties on which it is impossible to establish

the market value. We also said that rating communal

land would be highly problematic in that it often

houses the very poorest of the poor. The idea that

they should pay rates purely because they have been

granted PTOs on communal land is absurd, and the

Bill, likewise, addresses this in part by way of an

automatic R15 000 rates exemption on the value of

property. We support the provision that this sum be

adjusted upwards as required.
19 February 2004                                                 Page 65 of 200


We objected to the notion that a municipality could

be    compelled    to     rate      communal      land.    The     Bill

provides that in terms of the rates policy arrived

at by way of a transparent process, a municipality

can exempt categories of property or of owners from

the rates net.



In respect of exemptions, we were not happy with

the    published    draft      which    made      precious       little

provision for people whose circumstances were such

that they were problematic, even though they were

owners of property perhaps worth a fair sum, such

as    pensioners    or    people      temporarily         unemployed.

Indeed,    there        were     occasions        on      which     the

department came across as callous and hardhearted.

We are pleased that the Bill, as adopted, expresses

a more humane vision and trust that municipalities

will take heed of the discretion they have in which

to craft a fair rates policy rather than one which

seeks to grab every cent possible.



There   are     matters    which,      in   our    view,     did    not

prevail    in     respect      of    valuation         systems.     For

example, we took issue with the notion that the
19 February 2004                                            Page 66 of 200


only way to rate property was by way of the market

value of land and improvements. Copious evidence

was presented to us, none of which was sufficiently

forceful to discount the notion that a variety of

systems are equally valid. We would have preferred

local or provincial choice in this matter, but the

notion      of    national       uniformity   at      all    costs

prevailed, unnecessarily, we believe.



In the final analysis, there are pros and cons to

most Bills, and compromises are the order of the

day. Having weighed up our earlier objections to

the earlier version of the Bill and comparing it to

the    present    version,   we     believe   there    has   been

sufficient progress for us now to support it. I

thank you.



Mong    S   A    MSHUDULU:   E    re   ke   dumedise    monghadi

Modulasetulo le Ntlo ena. Kajeno ke tla kgetha ho

bua le setjhaba haholo le ho feta ka moo ke tlang

ho bua le Ntlo ena. Property rates ke yona tsela eo

ka yona bo-mmasepala ba fumanang tjhelete ka yona.

Bo-mmasepala ba fumana matla a ho beha di-rates ho

ya ka molao wa motheo wa rona. Molao wa motheo o
19 February 2004                                                 Page 67 of 200


thibela bo-mmasepala hore ba se ke ba lefisa ka

tsela e nyatsang maano a naha ka moruo.

Ka   tsela    e     sitisang,         tsela    ya    ho    fetisetsa

ditshehebediso         ho   batho     bohle,    le    ka   tsela       e

sitisang puso le tsamaiso ka kakaretso. Di-rates di

patalwe ka tsela e tshwanang ho ya ka mekgahlelo le

ditulo tseo dibaka tsa rona di welang ho tsona.

Molao ona o thibela bo-mmasepala hore ba seke ba

phahamisa d-rates ho feta tekano, kapa ba di theole

ho feta tekano.



Molao ona o kenyeletsa ditulo le batho ba neng ba

sa patale hobane ba na le bokgoni ba sa futsaneha.

Jwalo ka bana ba ntseng ba tletleba. Molao ona o

qobella bo-mmasepala hore ka naha yohle ba be le

ditsela    tse    tshwanang        tsa   ho    sebetsa     jwalo      ka

valuaishini       le    tekatekano,       aphili      le    pelaelo,

rating    pholisi      le   rate    setting.    Chapter     2,     mona

molao o bua ka matla a bommasepala a ho beha di-

rates,    haholo       ho   ya   ka    demokrasi     eo    ANC    e   e

behileng.



Jwalo ka ha re tseba hore ho ke ke ha eba le di-

rate pholisi e le hore setjhaba ha se ka ba sa
19 February 2004                                                 Page 68 of 200


phehisa moo. Di-rates di patalwa ho ya ka market

value. Ena e boetse ke puo ya sekgowa. Feela e

bolela hore ha o ka rekisa tulo eno ya hao e tla

bitsa bokae. Ke yona tjhelete e hlahisang hore na

re   tla    lefa    bokae.       Rate     pholisi       e   lokela     ho

amohelwa ke lekgotla ka morao ho hore setjhaba se

fuwe sebaka sa ho phehisa.



Fixed-rates di tla behwa dibakeng tseo boleng ba

tsona bo leng tlase ho feta R15 000. Property-rates

Bill ha e ya etsetswa hore bo-mmasepala ba tlatlape

dibaka     tse    ding    kapa      batho   ba    itseng.       Empa    e

etseditswe hape le hore dintho di be pepeneneng, le

ho   lekola      matla   a    bo-mmasepala,       bokgoni     ba     bona

tshebedisong ya ditjhelete.



Ha   bo-mmasepala        ba   eba    le   matla     a   batho    ba    sa

pataleng feela ba ntse ba kgona, le ba sa kgoneng

hobane ba sa sebetse, ho tla sebediswa ditsela tse

itseng tsa exemption tsa rebates le di- reductions.

Diexemptions, di-rebates le di-reductions di lokela

ho etswa ka tsela e bulehileng, le e fihlellehang,

hape e hlahellang bajeteng ya lekgotla. Resolution
19 February 2004                                                          Page 69 of 200


ya   lekgotla        e    lokela        ho    behwa       mahlong     a    bohle

dikantorong tsa bo-mmasepala.



Chapter    2     e       boela      e    fana    ka       ditsela     tsa    ho

kenyeletswa ka ha nyane ha dibaka tse neng di ntse

di sa kenyeletswa. Hape molao o kenyeletsa bokgoni

ba    di-special              voting          areas,           dibakeng      tse

kgethehileng, tse nang le bokgoni hore disebediswa

di be ntle. Feela ho ke ke ha etsahala ntle le hore

setjhaba    se       kgone     ho       nka   karolo       ho    ya   ka    ward

committees kapa ka subcommittees tsa teng.



Chapter    3   e     bontsha         bohlokwa      ba      boikarabelo        ba

monga tulo ho patala di-rates, a leng teng kapa a

le siyo. Ba kopanetseng tulo, ho a hlokeha hore le

bona ba nke boikarabelo. Tsela e nngwe ya ho dula e

bitswa sectional title scheme,eo eleng hore ditulo

di arohantswe. Ho hlokahala hore emong le emong a

patalle    uniti         ya   hae.      Chapter       4    e    bontsha     hore

valuation roll e kenyeletsa ditulo tsohle sebakeng

seno ho mmasepala.



E kenyeletsa le ditulo tse lokelang ho patala le

tseo tse sa lokeleng ho patala. Feela ho bohlokwa
19 February 2004                             Page 70 of 200


hobane kajeno ha re na yona valuation ka ha ha re

ka ba ra tloha re ena le ditokelo tsao ho ba le

ditulo, ho tloha ha lefatshe la rona le nkuwa. Ke

ka hoo ANC e etsang hore seriti sa rona se kgutle.

Feela re kopa hore setjhaba ha di valuers di etela

ditulo tsa rona, pakeng tsa 7 hoseng ho ya ho 7

mantsiboya, ho be le tshebedisano mmoho.



Hobane etlare ha ba etla ba kopa ditokomane tse

bontshang hore tulo ke ya mang, re kgone ho ba

thusa. Ho bohlokwa ho tseba hore evaluation roll e

kena tshebetsong ho tloha ha financial year e qala

ka 1 July. E be molaong dilemong tse nne. Ke hore e

nka dilemo tse nne e ntse e sebetsa.Ho bohlokwa ho

tseba hore mahareng a dilemo tsena tse nne, ho na

le ho bitswang supplementary valuatuation roll e

leng yona e ntseng e updata ha re ntse re reka tulo

tse ntjha kapa re di ntjhafatsa.



Chapter 5 e bua ka hore property rates e valuer ho

ya theko jwalo ka ha ke hlalositse. Ntate ya ileng

a bua mona hore ditulong tsa mahae property rates

Bill ha se setshosa ka ha ha ho hlokahale hore di

value. Feela ha ho ka hlokahala hore di value, 15
19 February 2004                                          Page 71 of 200


000 yane e tla sebetsa. Re boela hape re ya ho

chapter 6, e bontshang ka mmo tulo tse lokelang ho

patala di lokelang ho kolokiswa ho roll, le dintlha

tse amanang le ditulo kapa le dintlha tse amanang

le monga tulo.



Ha   valuation     roll    e   fedile,   ho   lokela     hore   e

hlahiswe    ho    media,       dipampiring    kapa     radio    le

pontsheng ya mang kapa mang hore re tsebe hore e

fedile.    Ha    tletlebo      e   kentswe,   hobane    hona    ho

etsetswa hore motho ya nang le tletlebo a hlahelle,

a kgone hore a aphile. E bua hape ka divaluation

appeals board. Ke bua ka Sesotho hobane ho na le

batho ba ileng ba qhekanyetswa ba sa tsebe hobane

ho ne ho sena transparency.



Ba tshaba ho hlahella. Hona jwale ANC e re bao

bohle bao eleng hore ba na le ditulo, ba etse hore

ha ho hlokeha hore di value, di value hore e tle e

re ha ba sa kgotsofale, ba hlahelle. Ke boela hape

ke toboketsa ditabeng tseo e leng hore Ministara le

modulasetulo o ile a bua ka tsona, hore ditulo tseo

tse sa balellwang e ka ba di fe na? Di kenyeletsa

dikereke, ditulo tsa ho rapela, di kenyeletsa di di
19 February 2004                                                  Page 72 of 200


organizatione         tseo   eleng      hore    di     sebetsana     le

setjhaba,        di   kenyeletsa    hape   le   dikolo.       E   boele

hape e kenyeletse le batho ba thotseng matlo a RDP

ba unneng molemo ho ya ka Land Reform. Ke                          bona

batho bao eleng hore ha jwale mmuso ona wa bona wa

ANC, o etsa hore ba kgone ho itseka le ho ba le

seriti.



Feela tsohle ha dintho di se pepeneneng, ha ho ka

moo    ba    ka       tsebang      ka   teng.        Pele    ke    qeta

modulasetulo hape ho bohlokwa hore ke tle tabeng ya

hore ho dikereke, komiti e dumetse hore tulo ya ho

rapela e ke ke ya patadiswa, le tulo ya ho dula ha

baruti kapa baholo ba kereke. Ha eba ke ena le nako

ke tla bona.Ke ile ka qollang moo ANC ho strategies

and tactics, ereng ka sekgowa hobane ba nahana hore

ANC ha ena boKreste.



Ka    1977   e    re:   (Translation       of   Sotho       paragraphs

follows.)



[Mr S A MSHUDULU: I would like to greet the hon

Speaker and this House. Today I would like to speak

to the nation more than I will speak to this House.
19 February 2004                                            Page 73 of 200


Municipalities make money through property rates.

Municipalities have the power of determining the

rates      according      to      our      Constitution.      The

Constitution prevents municipalities from charging

rates     that   are     against     the     policies   of    the

country's economy.



In order to deliver the services to all the people,

and not disturb the general management, the rates

should be paid in the same way according to the

categories and areas where our people live. This

Bill prevents municipalities from setting rates too

high or too low.



This Bill includes those areas and people who were

able to pay, but did not pay, that is, those who

are not poor, like those who are complaining. This

Bill compels municipalities to use the same methods

when     dealing       with     evaluations,      appeals     and

complaints,      policy       ratings      and   rate   settings

throughout the country. In the second chapter, the

Bill deals with the powers that municipalities have

in     setting   rates,       especially    according   to    the

democracy set in place by the ANC.
19 February 2004                                                         Page 74 of 200




We    all    know    that        we   cannot     have       rate      policies

without the input of the public. Rates are paid

according to the market value. This, according to

the    English      language,         means     the    amount         that    one

gets    when     one      sells       one's    property.         It    is    the

amount       that   shows    how       much    it     costs.       The   rates

policy should be approved by the council after the

public has been given a chance to make inputs.



The fixed rates would apply in areas where their

value is less that R15 000. The property rates Bill

is not being introduced to let the municipalities

abuse other areas or certain people. It is also

being    introduced         in    order       that    things       should      be

transparent, as well as to assess the ability and

capacity       of     the    municipality             in    dealing          with

financial issues.



If     the    municipalities            experience          problems         with

people who do not pay even if they can, and those

who    cannot       pay   because       of     unemployment,           certain

methods of exemption will be used for rebates and

reductions.         Exemptions,          rebates,          and   reductions
19 February 2004                                                Page 75 of 200


should     be       dealt    with     in    a   transparent       and

accessible manner, which also appears on the budget

of the council. The council's resolution should be

displayed at the municipal offices where everybody

can see.



Chapter       two    also     shows     methods    or      ways    of

including, step-by-step, those areas which were not

included. This Bill also includes the ability of

the    special      voting   areas,    in    certain     areas    that

have    the     capacity,     so    that    they   can    have    the

necessary supplies. This cannot happen unless the

communities are able to take part through the ward

committees or their subcommittees.



Chapter       3      shows     the         importance      of     the

responsibility of the owner in paying the rates,

whether he or she is there or not. Those who share

the property should also take the responsibility.

In other areas which are divided, it will be called

a sectional title scheme. It will be necessary that

everyone pays for his or her unit.
19 February 2004                                                Page 76 of 200


Chapter four shows the valuation roll that includes

all   the    areas   in    that      municipality.      It    includes

those areas that are supposed to pay as well as

those that are not supposed to pay. It is therefore

important that today we do not have the valuation

because we never had the right to own property,

since those days when our land was taken from us.

That is why the ANC ensures that we get our dignity

back. We therefore plead with the public that when

the people who value properties come to our places,

between 7am and 7pm, they should co-operate with

them. When they come and ask for documents of proof

of ownership, we should be able to help them. It is

important to know that the valuation roll will be

implemented     from      the    beginning    of   the       financial

year on the first of July. It will be implemented

for four years. This means that it will be in place

for   four    years.      It    is    important    to    know    that

throughout     these      four       years,   there     will    be   a

supplementary valuation roll which will be updating

information every time a new property is sold or

renovated.
19 February 2004                                           Page 77 of 200


Chapter   five     describes     how    property     rates     are

valued, as I have just explained. The gentleman who

just spoke here said that the property rates Bill

was not necessary in the rural areas, because it is

not   necessary    for   properties       to   be    evaluated.

However, if it will be necessary for them to be

evaluated, the 15 000 will be useful.



If we look at Chapter six again, we see how the

areas that are supposed to pay, should be listed on

the   roll,   as     well   as    the     area      or    owner's

information. When the valuation roll is completed,

it should be publicised in the media, in newspapers

or on the radio, and everywhere where everybody can

see that it's completed. If a complaint is lodged -

because this would be done so that people can lodge

their complaints - the complainant can also appeal.



It also deals with the Valuation Appeals Board. I

am speaking in Sesotho, because there are people

who    were      affected      because     there         was    no

transparency. They are scared to come out. Now the

ANC is appealing to all those who have properties

to come forward so that their properties can be
19 February 2004                                                       Page 78 of 200


evaluated. I would also like to elaborate more on

what the Minister has talked about. Which are the

properties        that    are       not     included?        They    include

churches,          places            of          worship,         community

organisations,           as    well        as    schools.       This       also

includes those people who got RDP houses according

to    the   land    reform.          Those      are    the    people       who,

because of the ANC Government, have the dignity to

fight for their rights. However, if things are not

transparent, they will not be able to fight for

their rights.



Before I conclude, Madam Speaker, it is important

to    mention      that       the    committee         has   agreed        that

places      of    worship,          like     churches,       as     well     as

residential places for church ministers, should not

be expected to pay. If there is still time, I would

like to quote from the ANC strategies and tactics,

because     they    think       that       the    ANC    does       not    have

Christianity. In 1977 it said:]



The   ANC    is    actually         aware       that   the    overwhelming

majority     of    South       Africans         and,    indeed,      its    own

members who adhere to religious beliefs are people
19 February 2004                                              Page 79 of 200


of faith who do not practise any faith from this

point    of    view.    Indeed,     within        the    context   of

profound      moral    ethics,    empathy      towards     those   in

need and the human fellowship that most religions

preach, the ANC recognises the critical role the

religious      community    can    play      as     a    partner   in

reconstruction and development, nation-building and

reconciliation.



We shall continue to promote joint efforts within

the     sectoral       contribution       by       the     religious

community in pursuit of a nonracial, nonsexist and

democratic society.



Ke boele hape ke kgutlele hae, ho bohlokwa hore re

tsebe hore ho ya ho chapter 8, ho na le moo ho

bontshang teng ka tlasa miscellanious, hore ho na

le    tsela    e   bommasepala,     ha    ntse      re    emetse   ho

kenngwa tshebetsong ha molao ona, oo ba tlang ho

sebetsa ka ona le hona ka tsela e utlwahalang, ke

hore bommasepala bophelo bo tswela pele.



Ba tla sebedisa information eo ba nang le yona ya

voter's rolo eo ba nang le yona. Feela, ditulo tse
19 February 2004                                                        Page 80 of 200


ntseng di sa kenyeletswa kapa tseo ho hlokahalang

hore di kenyeletswe, pele ho tshebediso ya molao

ona,   ho     ya    ka     melao    ya    kgale,    di    tla       nne    di

kenyeletswe. Qetellong melao ya apartheiti kaofela

ha re qeta kajeno, re qeta                  ho kenya molao ona, e

tla tingwa. Di ordinance tsa aparheiti di ka se

hlole di sebetsa. Amandla. [Mahofi.]                      (Translation

of Sotho paragraphs follows.)



[Let me come back home again. It is important to

know   that    in        Chapter    8,    under   miscellaneous,            it

explains that while we are awaiting the passing of

this    Bill,            life      will     still        go        on     for

municipalities.



They   will        use    the   information        that       is    on    the

voters' roll that they have. However, areas that

were not included, that still need to be included

before the passing of this Bill, will be included.

Ultimately, all the apartheid laws will be removed.

All    the     apartheid           ordinances      will       no        longer

function. Amandla! [Power!] [[Applause.]]
19 February 2004                                                    Page 81 of 200


Mr J DURAND: Madam Deputy Speaker, the Department

of     Provincial        and     Local        Government       and     the

parliamentary committee should be commended on the

way    in    which   they      engaged       with    all   stakeholders

during the processing of this Bill. The committee

has succeeded in finding a balance between the need

for municipalities to have enough revenue to fulfil

their       responsibilities           and    the     need     to    avoid

levying rates in a way that harms categories of

property owners.



This    Bill    aims     to    introduce       a    uniform    municipal

rating system and to broaden the rate base. The

international trend for market value of land reform

and improvements at a uniform rate was followed.



The    New    NP   is    extremely       pleased      that    the    Local

Government: Municipal property rates Bill has now

been finalised, especially with some municipalities

which impose         levies on agricultural land without

the guidelines set out in this Bill. There have

been many grievances and some farmers have taken

municipalities          to    court.    The    new    system    will    be

phased in through consultation with stakeholders.
19 February 2004                                                      Page 82 of 200


Where    traditional         areas      are    concerned,          the     Bill

does not prescribe the levying of rates, but does

insist that while municipalities must decide for

themselves,         they    cannot        rate      property        that    is

communally owned or that has not been valued. Land

had to be worth more than R15 000 before it could

be rated.



The   New     NP,    however,      would       like    to     see    a     move

towards more land in South Africa being privately

owned.      Land     ownership       is       the     key     to    economic

wealth.       With    regard       to      organised          agriculture,

municipalities             will      have        to     consider           the

contribution made by agriculture before levying a

rate on farms. Crops on the land would also not be

included in the valuation of agricultural land.



The     New    NP     is     especially             pleased        that     the

beneficiaries        of     land   reform        programmes         will    be

exempt from paying rates for a period of 10 years

following the return of their land.



Local government has come a long way since 1994

when it was still racially defined. The people of
19 February 2004                                            Page 83 of 200


South Africa can be proud of the transition local

government has made in the past 10 years. They have

moved    from    only    providing       a    service      to   the

privileged few to providing basic services to all

people, including the poor. Local government has

successfully      established      new       infrastructure     in

rural    areas    and    maintained          infrastructure     in

developed areas. The challenge now is to maintain a

healthy balance.



Electricity has been installed in rural areas where

people never have dreamt of the day when they would

be able to turn on a switch and be provided with

light. Women no longer have to walk miles to get

water for their families.



Local government has increased the quality of life

of many. Now all our children are able to study at

night. The streetlights in areas also serve as a

deterrent to crime as criminals are unable to prey

on innocent victims in dark alleys.



The Local Government: Municipal Property Rates Bill

will    ensure   that   property   rates       will   be   charged
19 February 2004                                                          Page 84 of 200


according         to    the     provided        guidelines,         and    home

owners       and       farmers      will     no     longer       lose     their

properties.



Local government must now address the culture of

nonpayment. Clear and understandable accounts must

be    sent     to      people    to       ensure    that       there      is   no

miscommunication. Local government must now become

the    vehicle         in   terms     of    which      transformation          is

driven.



The New NP would like to thank the DA and Gerald

Morkel for setting an example of how not to do

things. How the DA reigned in the Western Cape in

2002    is    a     good    example        of    how    local     government

should not be managed. The DA has proven repeatedly

that they are incapable of governing. With Gerald

on the throne, they awarded hefty bonuses to top

management, even though the city was scrambling to

cut budgets after miscalculating revenue.



The    electric         fence    the       DA     wanted     to    erect       in

Kraaifontein           to   separate        poor       black      communities

from    rich       communities        -    the     fact    was     that    they
19 February 2004                                                    Page 85 of 200


wanted to introduce a wall - shows exactly what the

DA thinks of poor black people. [Interjections.]

Fortunately,        there      is   no    chance    of    the     DA   ever

coming      into    government.          The    DA-IFP    coalition      in

KwaZulu-Natal        is    a   clear      indication       that    the    DA

misses the days of apartheid when a fortunate few

benefited and the rest lived in poverty.



Let us have a glimpse of what one can expect under

the DA-IFP coalition government. It is important

that we look at this because South Africa deserves

better. The KwaZulu-Natal government this year is

heading for overspending of more than R2 billion,

about    twice      the     debt    that       forced     the     national

Government in 1999 to step in to take control of

the KZN administration. [Interjections.] Twice in

five years - not the sort of changes that South

Africa deserves.



Can    it    be    coincidental          that     the    finances      now,

again, are spiralling out of control since the DA

joined the IFP, with its MEC for economic affairs,

Burrows? It is, after all, the DA administration in

Cape    Town      that    managed,       during    their    very       short
19 February 2004                                          Page 86 of 200


term, to move the city's finance from a healthy

credit balance to billions in the red. This is not

the   sort   of    change      that   South   Africa   deserves.

[Interjections.]



The MEC for social welfare in KwaZulu-Natal, Prince

Gideon Zulu, in 2000 managed to squander over half

a million rand on hotel bills, choosing to live in

luxury in the Royal Hotel, the Beverly Hills and

the Hilton, while so many in this province suffer.

He spent 107 days of one year in five-star luxury

hotels.   How     can   that    be?   South   Africa   does   not

deserve that.



Not to be outdone, his colleague, the Rev Mthethwa,

MEC for public works, spent more than R300 000 in

six months on accommodation at the five-star Royal

Hotel. This is not the sort of change that South

Africa deserves. [Interjections.] Then, we have the

Speaker in KwaZulu-Natal who allegedly purchased 50

new tyres for his official vehicle in a space of

20 000 km. That is not what South Africa deserves.
19 February 2004                                                        Page 87 of 200


Then the DA has the cheek to complain about the

presidential       jet,    but      there    is       no    problem         with

Premier Matsotsi, I mean, Mtshali. [Interjections.]

[Laughter.] He is the only premier with a private

jet, a lear jet, which ferries him from his house

in     Durban      to     his        offices      in        Ulundi            and

Pietermaritzburg          at    R12 000      a    trip,       a       cost     in

excess of R1,5 million per year. He also spent more

than     R2,5 million          to    improve      security             at     his

private house. Who is he scared of? This change is

the worst. This is not a change that South Africa

deserves.



And listen to this spendthrift extravagance. In a

province with so much poverty, where Aids is out of

control,    where       infrastructure           is    crumbling,             the

IFP-DA coalition is planning to build yet another

office    complex       for    the    premier,         with       a    special

conference hall, at R80 billion, and a new plenary

chamber     for    the     House      of    Traditional               Leaders.

[Interjections.]



The    DEPUTY     SPEAKER:      Order!      There      is     a       point   of

order.
19 February 2004                                         Page 88 of 200


Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Madam Speaker, will you remind

the speaker that he is talking on the rates Bill.

[Interjections.]



Mr J DURAND: Madam Deputy Speaker, this is about

revenue and the redistribution of revenue to supply

services. This is what it is all about. [Applause.]



... and a new plenary chamber for the House of

Traditional Leaders for another R50 million. This,

whilst the former Ulundi parliamentary chamber is

unused. Come on, come on! This is not the sort of

change that South Africa deserves or wants. Yes,

South Africa deserves better, better than the DA,

better than the hon Tony Leon, the evangelist of

doom and despair. [Interjections.]



The   New   NP    supports   the   Bill.   I     thank    you.

[Applause.]



The   DEPUTY     MINISTER    FOR   AGRICULTURE    AND     LAND

AFFAIRS: Madam Deputy Speaker, fortunately I will

now give a boring speech. I have a very simple

function which I will gladly fulfil, and that is to
19 February 2004                                        Page 89 of 200


express our thanks and support for this Bill on

behalf     of   the    Ministry   of   Agriculture   and   Land

Affairs.



We   are    especially     grateful     that   the   portfolio

committee        had     extensive      consultation       with

agriculture and land-related bodies. We are very

grateful for that, because, I think, they sorted

out the problems and everyone is satisfied now. I

am especially referring to clause 3(4) of the Bill,

which gives the different categories municipalities

must take into account with respect to agricultural

properties or producing properties.



It is very interesting, actually, the way this has

been worded. The first part of it refers to the

fact that the municipality must take into account

the extent of services provided by the municipality

in respect of such properties. Obviously, if you

read it in context it is not the same as what in

taxation theory is called "taxation according to

benefit", because that is relegated to history.
19 February 2004                                             Page 90 of 200


Taxation according to benefit means that a person

must pay so much tax, or can be called upon to pay

tax, as you would in private enterprises in that

you pay according to what you receive. That, of

course, can't work in modern times. It is actually

a thing which came before the French Revolution in

the 18th century when the tax-exempt nobility and

the tax-exempt clergy did not pay any tax, but all

the   state's     resources    were    spent     on    them.       Of

course, that is a clear injustice.



I think there is a certain phase in which this type

of parity between services rendered and taxation or

rating    is   justified.     However,     it   is    only    at   a

certain    time   in   history      that   it   can    be     done,

because    the     moment     you     want      to    bring        in

differential      taxation    of    individuals,       then     you

can't work according to the principle of taxation

according to benefit. This is, obviously, because

the state is giving or expending its resources on

developmental purposes. It is made for the general

benefit and the principle leads nowhere at all.
19 February 2004                                           Page 91 of 200


However, I think the way in which it was built into

this Bill is to the satisfaction of all. I think

the main effect of this will be that the farming

community     will     start    taking      an    interest     in

municipal affairs, which is an extremely healthy

occurrence.     They    must   do   that.   Previously,      they

were used to distance from the dorpies, villages

and cities, and it is only when they really become

involved      in       municipal      affairs       that      the

developmental functions of municipalities in these

rural arrears will grow by leaps and bounds.



Regarding land reform, we are also very satisfied

with the provisions in the Bill - basically that

land   reform   beneficiaries       will    be   excluded    from

paying rates for the first 10 years after acquiring

property rights. Interestingly, I can say, by the

way, that if you look carefully at your definition

of land reform beneficiary - I only saw it today -

it might just be possible that by accident you have

excluded the receivers of land tenure reform.



Land tenure reform, in terms of the Constitution,

is done by virtue of section 25(8), and you only
19 February 2004                                             Page 92 of 200


exclude sections 25(6) and 25(7). So it may just be

possible that some of the areas where new order

rights are being acquired and old order rights in

terms of the Communal Land Rights Bill have slipped

through here, and I don't think that that is the

intention - that this 10-year period must also be

applicable to land reform beneficiaries of tenure

rights,    of    tenure   reform,    which    is    going    to    be

implemented under the Communal Land Rights Bill.

[Interjections.] No, I don't think they slipped up

with this. This is a very good Bill that we have

here. I have read that some 300 hours of discussion

in the portfolio committee was devoted to it. The

way in which ... [Time expired.] [Applause.]



Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Madam Deputy Speaker, property

rights     are   a   taxpayer's     right    to    ownership      and

economic freedom. A taxpayer indirectly engages in

the country's economy by creating a market value

for his or her assets. A taxpayer employs his or

her socioeconomic rights to purchase property and

improve upon it to gain maximum economic benefits

out   of    such     assets.   Such     engagements         in    the
19 February 2004                                                Page 93 of 200


country's economy should be an inalienable or non-

negotiable right.



Unfortunately,       the   Local      Government:         Municipal

Property Rates Bill seeks to minimise the taxpayers

rights, and impose a property tax that is skewed in

relation to property value, even though the Bill

provides    for   property    rates      to   be   determined       by

market value, since the rate regime offered within

the Bill is actually an added tax that will be

difficult to recapture in real economic terms by

property owners. Property rates should be levied

according to the service rendered by the Government

and not an enforced tax.



Although    the     flat   rate    for    property        has     been

deleted from the current Bill, uncertainty exists

whether    market    forces   will    have     a   free    hand     in

property valuation, since the municipality has been

given superior powers to those in the market to

determine    what    equitable     market      value      ought    to

mean.
19 February 2004                                                         Page 94 of 200


The ACDP feels that the Bill will have an adverse

effect on property valuation, as improved value of

property will be taxed causing owners to disinvest

in property development.



The ACDP agrees that municipalities ought to remain

solvent       to     operate      effectively,         but    not    at    the

expense of overtaxing its citizens. One principle

that is close to the ACDP's values is that land and

property should not be in the control of the state,

or     manipulated          in    such      a    way     that       it    will

impoverish or control property owners.



The Bill makes provision that all property owners

will     be    included          in   contributing           to   municipal

revenue;       this        includes      rural      areas,        townships,

farms,        etc.     However,        the      danger       exists       that

municipalities may enforce a tax regime where there

will be those who will pay more taxes than others,

which     will        on    the       one    hand      diminish          wealth

accumulation, and on the other hand perpetuate the

poverty cycle.
19 February 2004                                                Page 95 of 200


The Bill may have its merits in that municipalities

will benefit from a broader tax base, but in terms

of     providing      an     equitable      and       agreeable      tax

structure, the prospects are dim for some property

owners.



The ACDP believes that this Bill errs on creating a

redistributive regime that will not contribute to

real       economic   stimulation,       and    therefore       cannot

support this Bill. I thank you.



Mr A G LYLE: Comrade Deputy Speaker, the Portfolio

Committee on Provincial and Local Government has

taken note, with dismay, of the character of the

institution of valuers.



The demographics and the gender aspects need to be

addressed.      We    urge      the   institution      to     take   the

necessary       steps      to     rectify      this     unacceptable

situation. During our interaction with the property

valuers, as a committee, not a single black valuer

or     a    woman     valuer      was   present.        The    current

situation is hopelessly skewed. The truth of the

matter is that this situation does not answer the
19 February 2004                                                      Page 96 of 200


call     of     our    democratic       revolution.         This      is     a

challenge       to    the    institution.        They     must   move       in

tandem        with    other     progressive         institutions           and

sectors       in     this    country.      There    are    hundreds        of

black estate agents that could be brought into the

fold.



To the institution we say, the ball is in your

court. This committee, as mandated to exercise its

oversight role, will certainly review the situation

in the near future.



In the past, each of the former four provinces had

their own legislation and system of valuation and

rating.       The     system    was   extremely         cumbersome         for

establishing valuation rolls. This Bill addresses

these     differentiations            by     introducing          a    more

uniform       and     simple    system.     In     terms   of    the       new

process, a municipality intending to levy a rate on

property       must,    in     accordance     with      this     piece      of

legislation,           cause     a    general        valuation.            All

properties must be valuated.
19 February 2004                                                       Page 97 of 200


Each municipality must appoint a municipal valuer,

who    will    value         all    rateable        properties       in    the

municipality and prepare a valuation roll. Two or

more municipalities may by agreement appoint the

same person as a municipal valuer. A person who is

not    a   municipal         official       may     be    appointed       as   a

municipal valuer only through an open, competitive

and transparent process.



Chapter       11   of        the    Local      Government:          Municipal

Finance Management Act outlines this process. The

municipal manager may designate officials of the

municipality       or        persons      in    private        practice        as

assistant municipal valuers to assist the valuer of

the municipality. A municipal valuer may not be a

councillor of the designating municipality, if that

municipality        is         a        metropolitan           or    district

municipality,           or         of     either         the    designating

municipality or the district municipality in which

that       municipality            falls,      if        the    designating

municipality is a local municipality.



A municipal valuer, or assistant municipal valuer,

must   disclose         to    a    municipality          any    personal       or
19 February 2004                                                    Page 98 of 200


private business interests that the valuer or any

spouse,     parent,        child,      partner          or     business

associates of the valuer may have in any property

in the municipality and may not use the position

for   private      gain    or    improperly        benefit         another

person.



A municipal valuer or assistant municipal valuer

may   require     the     owner,   tenant     or    occupier         of   a

property which the valuer must value, or the agent

of the owner, to give the valuer access to any

document or information in possession of the owner,

tenant,     occupier        or     agent    which        the        valuer

reasonably      requires     for    purposes       of    valuing       the

property.



Chapter 5 of the Bill provides for the criteria

under     which    the     property    must      be      valued.       The

property    must    be    valued    according       to       its    market

value,    that     is,    the    amount    the     property         would

realise if sold in the open market by a willing

seller or willing buyer. In the case of sectional

title schemes, each sectional title unit must be

separately valued.
19 February 2004                                                Page 99 of 200


Chapter 6 regulates the contents and processing of

the    valuation        rolls.    It     requires     all    rateable

property to be listed on the roll, together with

relevant details about each property and the owner.



Upon     completion        of     the     valuation      roll,      the

municipal manager must within 21 days publish in

the prescribed form in the provincial Gazette, and

once a week for two consecutive weeks advertise in

the media a notice that the roll is open for public

inspection, and that any person who wishes to lodge

an objection against any entry in the roll may do

so within a stated period.



If an adjustment in the valuation of a property is

more than 10% upwards or downwards, the matter must

be    referred     to    the     valuation    appeal        board   for

review. The lodging of an objection does not defer

liability for payment of rates.



However, if an adjustment to the valuation roll,

following      a     successful         objection,      affects     the

amount    of   the      rates    payable     by   the    owner,     the

municipal manager must calculate the difference and
19 February 2004                                              Page 100 of 200


either   repay    or   recover    the       difference    from    the

owner.



The municipal valuer's decision on any objection is

not final. An objector who is not satisfied with

the decision may appeal against the decision to the

valuation board. The municipal manager must assist

an objector to lodge an objection if that objector

is unable to read or write.



In    conclusion,      Comrade         Deputy     Speaker,        our

committee would want to see a situation in which

property valuers, and the public at large, own this

piece of legislation.



It is an instrument that will be used to introduce

positive    changes      in      property       valuations        and

fundamentally      transform          the    manner      in    which

municipalities apply their rates policy. I thank

you. [Applause.]



Mr G T MADIKIZA: Madam Deputy Speaker, the UDM has

the   following    concerns      to    place    on    record     with

regard to this Bill.
19 February 2004                                                Page 101 of 200


This Bill will increase the burden on poor people

by introducing a new form of taxation. Groups who

will be especially hard hit will be the rural poor

and the agricultural sector.



There    is    currently   no    universally         accepted        land

tenure       system.    Many    areas     have     little       or     no

services, and charging rates in a community where

vast    numbers    still   share     a   single        tap    would    be

supremely unfair. Similarly, many of these areas

that will now suddenly be liable for this new tax

have     little    by    way    of      even     the     most    basic

infrastructure such as access roads.



Many local governments have become notorious for

their lack of capacity to administer their existing

systems. How will they cope with the massive new

task of implementing this system, and extending it

into more remote rural areas and congested squatter

camps?



For    the    commercial   farmer       this   new      tax    poses    a

significant threat to their livelihoods, and to the

livelihoods of the thousands of people they employ.
19 February 2004                                             Page 102 of 200


Commercial farmers have to compete, as it is, in

international    markets     against        heavily      subsidised

foreign farmers. More taxation could therefore have

catastrophic effects.



The UDM believes that the issue of property rates

is far too complex to be sufficiently addressed by

the Bill in its current format. We propose that a

commission be established to investigate all the

complexities before a new Bill is drafted. I thank

you.



Mnr J P I BLANCHÉ: Speaker, vir 80 jaar lank word

erfeienaars     van   dorpe          en    stede      belas        deur

munisipaliteite.         Die          wet          bepaal          dat

eiendomwaardasie die basis van erfbelasting vorm.



Ons vra waarom moet die woonerfeienaar bydra tot

die diens en fasiliteite wat almal in die metro,

die dorp of die stad benut. Waarom moet hierdie

erfeienaars, wat dikwels pensioenarisse is, betaal

vir    die   ontwikkeling      van    'n    dorp    of      stad    se

woonbuurte,     parke,      sportfasiliteite           en     paaie,

terwyl 'n groot aantal inwoners wat dit gebruik nie
19 February 2004                                                      Page 103 of 200


bydra nie, bloot omdat hulle nie eiendom daar besit

nie?    Die       President      en    al    die    ministers             betaal

byvoorbeeld nie eiendomsbelasting in Kaapstad of in

Pretoria nie.



Die FA het voorgestel dat die Regering 'n gedeelte

van    inkomstebelasting              oormerk      en     oorbetaal          aan

plaaslike owerhede en wegdoen met erfbelasting. Dit

sal     meebring         dat     alle       verbruikers             van     alle

plaaslike owerhede se dienste en fasiliteite bydra

tot    die    totstandkoming           en   benutting         van     daardie

dienste en fasiliteite. (Translations of Afrikaans

paragraphs follow.)



[Mr J P I BLANCÉ: Speaker, for 80 years property

owners       of   towns    and    cities      have       been       taxed     by

municipalities.           The    law    stipulates        that       property

valuations form the basis of property rates.



We     are    asking       why    the       property      owner           should

contribute to the services and facilities that are

used by everyone in the metro, town or city. Why

should       these       property       owners,         who     are        often

pensioners,        pay    for    development         of       the    town     or
19 February 2004                                                  Page 104 of 200


city's          residential          areas,       parks,         sporting

facilities and roads, while a great many residents

use it do not contribute, simply because they do

not own any property there? For example, neither

the President nor any of the Ministers pay property

taxes in Cape Town or Pretoria.



The   FA    suggested      that      the      Government   earmarks       a

portion of the income tax, pays that over to the

local      authorities         and     does     away   with      property

rates. This will ensure that all consumers of all

local       authorities'             services      and         facilities

contribute to the establishment and use of those

services and facilities.]



That means that we tax all the users of municipal

services,        not    only     the     property      owners.        Madam

Speaker, that is fair in a democracy. That will

ensure that taxi owners contribute to the road, the

taxi rank and other facilities they use. So will

migratory labour, especially foreign mine workers,

contribute to the facilities of a town or a city -

think      of     Welkom    and        other     cities.       Even     the

employees        of    Correctional        Services      and    military
19 February 2004                                            Page 105 of 200


bases will then, through their taxes, contribute

towards the city and the town treasury where they

are employed, which they presently do not.



Ons wil die Regering oorreed om weg te beweeg van

hierdie      soort        gronddiskriminasie            teen      die

grondeienaars. Ons wil hulle oorreed om Ministers

te laat betaal. Ons wil dit ook wegvat van die

grondwaardasie, want dit kos oneindig baie om grond

te   laat   waardeer      terwyl      ons   met    'n     toegewyde

belasting vanaf die inkomstebelasting dit makliker

kon gedoen het. Maar nee, die ANC het geglo hulle

sal voortgaan op die ou paaie. [We want to persuade

the Government to move away from this form of land

discrimination       against    landowners.        We     want     to

persuade them to make the Ministers pay. We also

want to remove it from property evaluation, because

it   is   infinitely      expensive    to   have    land       valued

while we could do it so much more easily with a

dedicated tax from the income tax. But no, the ANC

believed    that   they    would   continue       along    the    old

ways.]
19 February 2004                                              Page 106 of 200


Madam    Speaker,    my    party       will    vote    against      this

Bill.



Mr   J   J   KGARIMETSA:        Madam     Deputy      Speaker,       hon

members in the House and Ministers present, part of

the statement made by the NEC of the ANC on its

92nd anniversary on 8 January 2004 reads thus:



 During the first decade of freedom, we paid close

 attention      to     the      task    of     ensuring      that    we

 transform a declining economy encumbered by wrong

 policies and practices of the apartheid years. At

 the     same   time      we    also    made       certain   that     we

 transform      public         finances       to    facilitate       the

 further growth of the economy and its capacity to

 generate the resources we need to fight poverty

 and work to meet the needs of the people.



Indeed, people are on track. Mosito o tswela pele.

[Life goes on.] With the introduction of the new

legislation in the form of the Local Government:

Municipal Property Rates Bill, there will always be

a need for capacity-building. This challenge is not

only that of the department and Salga, but there is
19 February 2004                                                        Page 107 of 200


a    need    that     everyone          of    us    here     be    involved.

Everyone      of     us    here    should          participate       in   this

process.



The Bill provides for a three-year phase-in period

for   newly     rateable         properties.          It    also     requires

each municipality to adopt and annually review its

rates       policy        in     consultation          with       the     local

community. When designing the public participation

process, it is required that attention be paid to

disadvantaged groups like women.



The    new    rates       regime        also    includes          appropriate

measures      to     alleviate          the    rates    burden       on   poor

households; it should also be a tool to promote

local,      social    and        economic      development.          This   is

made possible by section 15(2) of the Bill that

grants exemptions, rebates or reductions to owners

of    properties          such     as     indigent         owners,      owners

dependent      on     pensions          or    social       grants,      owners

temporarily without income, and owners of property

situated within an area affected by disaster.
19 February 2004                                           Page 108 of 200


This legislation requires the municipalities, the

department and Salga to play an active role and

dedicate considerable time and effort to both the

process of valuation and, just as importantly, to

developing     a    policy     in    partnership       with     the

residents in terms of which rates will be levied.



This envisaged system of rating is perhaps the most

important strategy for local economic management,

and    its     implementation        will      guarantee       that

municipalities      conform    to    a    single    approach    to

property     rates.    This   will    make     it   possible    to

determine the fiscal capacity of municipalities.



Gareng ga tse dingwe bagaetsho, a re eleng tlhoko

dilo tse di latelang, tseo mo go tsona, lefapha le

Salga di tla tlhotlhomisang gore tota tiro yotlhe

mo go bommasepala ba rona, bao ba sa lekalekaneng,

e   diriwa   go    dirisiwa   dilo       tse   di   tsamayang    mo

tseleng e e tla isang batho kwa pele, e e tla isang

batho kwa bokamosong bo bošwa.



Dilo tseo re tshwanetseng ra di ela tlhoko, ke go

ela   tlhoko   ba     ba   dikobo    di   magetleng;     go   naya
19 February 2004                                     Page 109 of 200


selekano se se maleba mo go bao ba itsholetseng, fa

go nna le thekgethekiso; go sekegela tsebe boikuelo

wa   bangongoregi;   go   kgontsha     batho   ba   bašwa   go

reitiwa dingwaga di ka nna tharo go tsenngwa mo

tirisong; go reitiwa ga dithoto tsa bašwa, le go

naya mmasepala mongwe le mongwe dithata tsa go dira

tshwetso ya go duedisa batho dithoto le poeletso ya

tshekatsheko e, morago ga ngwaga mongwe le mongwe.



Ga gona ope yo o tlo tsenngwang segaswa mo ganong.

Re mo pusong ya demokerasi. Mosito o tswela pele.

Baagi le bona ba fiwa tšhono ya go tsaya karolo mo

tshekatshekong e. Ga go ope bagaetsho. Kwa bofelong

bagaetsho, maitlhomo a Molaotlhomo o ke go tlisa

ditlhabololo   mo    tikologong   ka    tirelotsweledi      ya

bommasepala le go tsholetsa maemo a ikonomi.



Ga go na tlhaolele epe, ga go na kgatelelo epe,

maikemisetso ke go loisa paakanyetso ya bokamoso jo

bošwa. Bosa bo sele! Bosa bo sele! A pula e le

nele, bagaetsho. (Translation of Tswana paragraph

follows.)
19 February 2004                                              Page 110 of 200


[Among other things, countrymen, let us take note

of the following, in terms of which the department

and      Salga        will          investigate      whether        our

municipalities, which are not on the same level,

are on the right track in taking our people forward

to their new future.



Some of the things we have to bear in mind are

taking    care        of      the     poor,   taxing     the       rich

appropriately;             paying        attention       to        what

complainants have to say; making it easier for the

youth    to    be     rated    for    three   years;    rating     the

youth's       goods     or     property;      and      giving      each

municipality the powers to take decisions on how to

tax people and review that every year.



Nobody will be forced to do anything. We are in a

democratic Government. Life goes on. The people are

also    given    an    opportunity       to   take   part     in   this

evaluation. Countrymen, nobody is being forced to

do anything. At the end of the day, the objective

of this Bill is to bring about developments and to

improve the economy.
19 February 2004                                                  Page 111 of 200


 There         is     no     discrimination.         There        is     no

oppression. The aim is to steer the preparations

for a new future in the right direction. Now is the

time! Now is the time! Farewell, my countrymen.]

Thank you very much. [Applause.]



Mr    W   P    DOMAN:      Madam    Deputy     Speaker,      one       Oscar

Ameringer said:



 Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from

 the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by

 promising to protect each from the other.



This      is   exactly       what   this   Bill     does.    Take,      for

example,             the      stakeholders           from         welfare

organisations          and     independent      schools      who       made

representation,              with     strong        arguments,          for

exclusion from paying property rates.



The    committee's         response     was    to   find     a    balance

between        the     need     for    municipalities            to    have

adequate revenue to fulfil their constitutionally

mandated        developmental         responsibilities           and    the

need to avoid levying rates in a way that will
19 February 2004                                               Page 112 of 200


debilitate these categories of property owners who

also play an invaluable developmental role.



So it must be true what somebody said:

 A politician is an animal who can sit on a fence

 and yet keep both ears to the ground.



The   ANC    members     would      pride   themselves         on    the

saying:



 There are two sides to every question and a good

 politician takes both.



We in the DA would rather advocate what William

Gaylin said:



 The translation of values into public policy is

 what politics is about.



Daarom      sou    die   DA   wou    sien   dat        privaatskole,

waarvan      die    totale    leerlingtal         al     58%        swart

leerlinge          is,    vrygestel         moet        wees          van

eiendomsbelasting. Staatskole se eiendomsbelasting

word deur die staat betaal. Privaatskole bestaan
19 February 2004                                                     Page 113 of 200


beslis nie om wins te maak nie, maar moet hulle

boeke balanseer in die proses om gehalte onderwys

te verskaf. Ouers by privaatskole dra deur hulle

belasting       by    tot   staatskole          en    sal   nou    nog    die

eiendomsbelasting           ook     moet       betaal       terwyl      hulle

alreeds     ekstra          betaal       vir         privaatskole.        Die

Regering behoort waardering vir hulle bydrae tot

onderwys te toon.



In   dieselfde         asem       is     dit        teleurstellend        dat

welsynsorganisasies,              wat         ter     wille       van     die

gemeenskap 'n ekstra myl loop, ook nie uitgesluit

word van eiendomsbelasting nie. Dit is immers die

publiek wat bo en behalwe hul persoonlike inkomste-

, eiendoms- en ander belasting 'n bydrae maak tot

welsyn    van    die    gemeenskap            waar    die   staat      tekort

skiet.



Die DA wil 'n beroep op munisipaliteite doen om

hulle    goeie       oordeel      toe    te    pas     en   hierdie      twee

kategorieë tegemoet te kom.



Die DA verwelkom die vrystelling van ten minste die

eerste      R15 000         van         die     waardasie         om      arm
19 February 2004                                                      Page 114 of 200


huiseienaars          tegemoet          te        kom.        Gegewe        die

behuisingsnood in Suid-Afrika, en die wyse waarop

die Regering aan arm mense huise gee, maak dit nie

sin     dat    sulke        mense,      dikwels          werkloses,         die

volgende      dag    weer    uitgesit        word      omdat       hulle    nie

eiendomsbelasting kan betaal nie.



In plaas van om 'n bedrag te noem, sou 'n koppeling

aan    die    bedrag       van    die    behuisingsubsidie                beter

gewees het. In hierdie verband het Kaapstad twee

jaar gelede onder DA-bewind die leiding geneem in

Suid-Afrika,         en     die   vrystelling            op     die    eerste

R50 000 van 'n waardasie gemaak.



Dit     wys    net        weer:   die        DA    gee        om    vir     arm

mense.[Tussenwerpsels.]                 En deur goeie bestuur is

dit altyd die DA-munisipaliteite wat werklik iets

vir    arm    mense       doen.    [Applous.]          (Translation          of

Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)



[For this reason the DA would have liked to see

that    private      schools,      where      the      total       number    of

Black    pupils      already      amounts         to     58%,      should    be

exempted from property rates. The property rates of
19 February 2004                                                  Page 115 of 200


state        schools    are     paid      by    the    State.     Private

schools definitely do not exist to make a profit,

but     must     balance      their       books       while     providing

quality        education.       At     private        schools     parents

contribute to state schools by way of their rates,

and will now have to pay the property rates as well

while    they     are    already       paying      extra   for    private

schools.         The      Government            should        show       its

appreciation for their contribution to education.



In     the     same     breath,      it    is    disappointing         that

welfare organisations, who walk the extra mile for

the sake of the community, are not exempted from

property       rates     as   well.       It    is,   after     all,     the

public who, over and above their personal income

tax,     property       rates     and      other      taxes,     makes    a

contribution to the welfare of the community where

the State falls short.



The DA wants to appeal to municipalities to apply

their sound judgement and strike a compromise with

these two categories.
19 February 2004                                         Page 116 of 200


The DA welcomes the exemption of at least the first

R15 000 of the evaluation to accommodate poor home-

owners. Given the housing scarcity in South Africa,

and the way in which the Government gives houses to

poor people, it does not make sense that people

such   as   these,      often    the   unemployed,   are    being

evicted again the next day because they cannot pay

property rates.



Instead of mentioning an amount, linking this to

the amount of the housing subsidy would have been

better.     In   this   regard    Cape   Town,   under     the   DA

administration, took the lead in South Africa two

years ago and made the exemption on the first R50

000 of an evaluation.



This only goes to show again: The DA cares for the

poor. [Interjections.] And through good governance

it is always the DA municipalities which really do

something for the poor. [Applause.]]



Rev A D GOOSEN: Deputy Speaker, Mr Doman says that

the DA cares for our poor. That is far from the

truth. As far as the Western Province is concerned,
19 February 2004                                    Page 117 of 200


they did absolutely nothing. Mr Grobler complains

about the hours we spent on the Bill, but more than

half of the 330 hours were spent in negotiations

with   stakeholders,   including   the    constituency    of

the DA.



They came to the ANC with their problems. They know

that Mr Grobler and the DA are powerless. From Mr

Grobler, all we heard were complaints and even more

complaints. He complained that we were going too

fast and he complained that we were going too slow.

Sometimes he complained about both. Mr Grobler, you

cannot have your cake and eat it!



The DA supports the land value and flat rate, and

not land improvements as envisaged in this Bill,

for the simple reason that the former valuation is

going to cost them less in terms of rates payable,

because   they   do    not   support     delivery   to   the

townships, and still they say they support the poor

people. The DA might be liberal in their outlook,

but they are very conservative in their actions.

[Applause.]
19 February 2004                                         Page 118 of 200


The hon Southgate says that property rates minimise

the rights of people. This is far from the truth. I

am sorry to say that the hon member does not know

what she is talking about. The Bill makes provision

for people to exercise their rights. This Bill, on

the contrary, will bring about a just and equitable

rating system in South Africa. She also says that

the Bill will perpetuate the poverty cycle. The hon

member hardly attended committee meetings and she

is misleading the House. Rates, for one, will not

be paid in rural and traditional areas.



We believe that there is wide agreement on this

Bill, which is a very balanced one indeed. Should

anyone be discontented with this final product, and

we believe there are those, then they would be the

people who want to see a free market system in

place,      but   who   detest    market    value   on    their

property for valuation purposes. So, in short, they

do not want to pay the applicable rates due by

them. What they do want is land value on a property

and thus paying less in terms of rates. So what we

make   of    it   is    that   they   do   not   want    to   see

municipalities forging ahead with their programme
19 February 2004                                                      Page 119 of 200


of    delivery,          with       this        much-needed           revenue

generated through the implementation of this piece

of   legislation.        The    fact       of    the    matter       is    that

without this important source of revenue, the IDP

is   going       to     remain        a     wish        list        for   most

municipalities.



It   therefore         goes     without         saying     that       revenue

generated       from    the     affluent         communities         will    be

utilised for services in the poorer areas. There is

no   other      way     in     which       we     can     eradicate         the

inequalities       in     society.         The    system        allows      for

cross-subsidisation between wealthy and poor areas,

so   as    to    build       stable       communities          as    well    as

redress past imbalances. The tables are now turned.

The days when Grassy Park and Mitchell's Plain had

to   subsidise         those        residing       on     the        Atlantic

Seaboard are past. We now have entered a new era,

where     people      must    pay    whatever       is    due       by    them.

There are ways of lodging objections and appeals to

be heard, but South Africa now needs to move to

another level of development in pushing back the

frontiers of poverty. That is the right thing to

do, and now is the time to do it. [Applause.]
19 February 2004                                           Page 120 of 200


For those, like Mr Madikiza, who was saying that

property     rates    will     be     levied     on    traditional

authority areas, we are saying that is "illogically

inexact". The portfolio committee, for a number of

reasons,     does    not   believe     that      the   levying    of

property rates in traditional authority areas will

be on the agenda for a long time to come. The Bill

is very specific on the effect of rates on the poor

and on charitable and welfare organisations, and

therefore requires the municipality to quantify the

costs and benefits of all exemptions, rebates and

reductions to the municipality.



An important objective of the Bill is to shift the

rates burden from the poor, taking into account the

effect of rates on public service infrastructure,

and for the municipality to promote local, social

and economic development.



Properties    will    first    have    to   be    valued   by    the

municipalities before rates will become applicable,

and   this    is     not     going    to    happen      overnight.

Municipalities need to capacitate themselves as to

what the Bill is saying. They will have four years
19 February 2004                                                     Page 121 of 200


to do their valuation rolls as a first step towards

generating revenue through property rates.



In the event of property owners being dissatisfied

with    the       valuation    of    their          property,      they    can

first of all raise objections with the municipal

valuer, and should they not succeed, they then have

access       to    the    Valuation       Appeal       Board      which     is

specifically         established          to        hear     appeals      from

disgruntled         owners.    The    board          will    no    doubt    be

sympathetic to appeals lodged with them, and will

do everything in their power to give a just hearing

and endeavour to make a fair judgment in each case

brought before it.



The    board       will    consist    of       people       who    have    the

necessary          expertise         to        hear         appeals.       The

chairperson, for instance, must be a person with

legal qualifications and sufficient experience in

the administration of justice. He will be assisted

by     two    to    four    other     members          with       sufficient

knowledge         of/or    experience          in    the     valuation      of

property.
19 February 2004                                         Page 122 of 200


The conduct of members makes it clear that they

must perform their duties in office in good faith

and without fear or prejudice. Their functions will

be to hear and decide appeals against the decision

of the municipal valuer concerning the objections

and to review decisions of a municipal valuer.

Once the appeal board has reached a decision on an

appeal   brought   before    it,   the     chairperson    of   an

appeal   board   and   the   valuer   of    the   municipality

must ensure that the valuation roll is adjusted or

added to in accordance with the decision taken by

the board.



If an adjustment in the valuation of a property ...



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!



Rev A D GOOSEN: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. We

support the Bill. [Applause.]



The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT:

Madam Deputy Speaker, allow me once more to thank

all the hon members who participated in the work of

the portfolio committee, the work that has brought
19 February 2004                                         Page 123 of 200


us to the point at which we are today; and also to

thank all the hon members who participated in the

debate, amongst whom were the hon Mr Grobler and

the hon Mr Doman.



Mr Grobler had the privilege to participate in the

work of the portfolio committee and, indeed, his

impressive      grasp    of   the   provisions   of    the     Bill

attest     to    this.    He,   unfortunately,        failed     to

convince his own party about the merits that are

inherent in the Bill which explains why the DA, in

his own words, has decided not to support the Bill.

[Interjections.]



The hon Mr Doman gave us a queer definition of a

politician which happens to be an apt description

of his fellow DA member, the hon Mr Grobler. Quite

clearly,    Mr    Grobler     and   Mr   Doman   deserve       each

other. [Applause.]



The hon Inkosi Hlengwa spent a bit of time giving

us his own interpretation of the provisions of this

Bill. What he betrayed was the fact that he did not

have the benefit of exposure to the work of the
19 February 2004                                             Page 124 of 200


portfolio      committee.       Perhaps    he     needs     to    take

advantage of the emerging alliance for change and

try to spend a bit of time with the hon Mr Grobler.

That will help him to justify the support which his

party     is   giving      to    the    Bill.     I    thank      you.

[Applause.]



Debate concluded.



Agreed     to.     (Democratic         Alliance       and    African

Christian Democratic Party dissenting)



Bill read a second time.



        SOUTH AFRICAN CITIZENSHIP AMENDMENT BILL



                   (Second Reading debate)



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Madam Deputy Speaker,

hon members, the Department of Home Affairs has, in

its     attempts   to   realign        legislation        under    its

administration      with    the    Constitution,          identified

the South African Citizenship Amendment Bill as one

of those pieces of legislation to be brought into
19 February 2004                                                    Page 125 of 200


line     with    the     Bill         of      Rights    and     also     the

democratic values of human dignity, equality and

freedom enshrined in our Constitution.



The provisions of section 9(1) of the South African

Citizenship Act of 1995, as amended by the South

African Citizenship Amendment Act of 1997, conflict

with     section       20        of     the     Constitution,           which

stipulates that no one may be deprived of his or

her    citizenship.         Furthermore,          this        section     can

hardly be justified in terms of section 35 of the

Constitution,      which         stipulates       the    limitation        of

the rights set out in the Bill of Rights.



The    South     African          Citizenship          Amendment         Bill

therefore       seeks       to        bring     the     South       African

Citizenship Act of 1995 in line with section 20 of

the    Constitution         as    far      as   dual    citizenship        is

concerned.



It repeals the provision that allowed the Minister

to deprive a citizen of his or her citizenship for

having    used     the      travel         document      of     a   foreign

country to enter or depart from the Republic, or to
19 February 2004                                           Page 126 of 200


enter or depart from a country that issued such

passport or any other third country.



This    provision     was   also    problematic      in   that   it

called    for   the    extraterritorial         application      of

South    African    law.     In    fact,   in   terms     of   such

provision, a South African citizen, who is also a

citizen of another country, stands to be deprived

of his or her South African citizenship even if he

or she uses his or her foreign passport to enter or

depart from the foreign country which issued it or

to enter or depart from any third country.



The problematic nature of this provision was not

mitigated by the power which until now vested in

the Minister to issue authorisations to citizens

with dual citizenship to use their passport abroad

as until now set out in section 9(2) of the South

African Citizenship Act.



In terms of such provisions, such exemptions can

only be given under "exceptional circumstances". In

fact, to obviate the difficulties arising out of

this    application,    we    were    forced    to   issue     such
19 February 2004                                          Page 127 of 200


exceptions effectively to anyone who applied for

it. Such exemptions expire on an annual basis in

November.



In the past they have been renewed amidst great

distress on the part of holders of dual passports,

many of whom use their foreign passports to enter

foreign     countries     to   avoid   the    need    of    visa

requirements imposed on South Africans.



The intention was always that of punishing citizens

who used foreign passports to enter or depart from

the Republic of South Africa or act as non-citizens

while they are within South Africa. Therefore, the

South   African     Citizenship    Second     Amendment     Bill

makes provisions for such conduct to be severely

punished by imprisonment.



I do not believe that it would be constitutionally

permissible to punish such violation of law with

the   deprivation    of   citizenship,       which   is    not   a

sanction which attaches to any other crime. It is

also not possible to construe the use of a foreign
19 February 2004                                               Page 128 of 200


passport facility in the Republic as a voluntary

relinquishment of South African citizenship.



This Bill will punish those of our citizens who, in

their relations with the South African state, act

as     if   they     were     foreigners,         while    creating     a

rational       and        comfortable       regulation        of      the

situation      of    those    who    hold    a    dual    citizenship,

consistent         with     the     fact    that    throughout        our

history, dual citizenship has been recognised and

protected.



The     Bill       therefore        introduces       the     following

provisions: Clause 1 seeks to repeal section 9 of

the South African Citizenship Act, Act 88 of 1995.

Clause 2 provides for the insertion of section 26B,

after section 26A in the South African Citizenship

Act,    Act    88    of     1995.    It    will    provide    for     the

imposition of penalties on citizens using a foreign

passport to enter or depart from the Republic or

for utilising his or her foreign citizenship while

in the Republic in a fraudulent manner. Clause 3

provides for the short title of the Bill being the

South African Citizenship Amendment Bill.
19 February 2004                                                    Page 129 of 200


Madam     Deputy     Speaker,      I     urge     that       this     House

accepts    the     South    African       Citizenship          Amendment

Bill. I thank you.



Mr H P CHAUKE: Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Minister, hon members, comrades and friends, the

South African Citizenship Amendment Bill seeks to

bring the South African Citizenship Act of 1995 in

line with section 20 of the Constitution as far as

dual citizenship is concerned. It seeks to repeal

the provision which allowed the Minister to deprive

citizens      of    their    rights       for     having       used    the

citizenship of a foreign country to enter or depart

from the Republic, or to enter or depart from the

country    which     issued      such    passport       or    any     other

third   country.      The     Bill      replaces    that       provision

with one which imposes penalties on a citizen using

a   foreign    passport     to    enter      or    depart      from    the

Republic      or    utilising      his      or    her    own        foreign

citizenship        while    in    the     Republic       to     gain     an

advantage or avoid a responsibility or duty.



South Africa is one of the few countries in the

world     that      tolerates        dual        citizenship.          Dual
19 February 2004                                                  Page 130 of 200


citizenship         is    a    phenomenon     that     stems    from    the

initial citizenship regime that existed in a number

of states in the British Commonwealth. Apart from

South        Africa,           the    situation          has     changed

dramatically         after       those       member     states       became

independent. Today the citizenship legislation of

these states, including the UK do not allow dual

citizenship. It is only in South Africa where dual

citizenship is allowed.



Nevertheless,            the   Bill   that     is     before    us   today

addresses those problems that the department is not

able to deal with and that they are faced with on a

day-to-day basis. When people enter the country, or

even when they leave the country, the department is

unable to accurately record the number of people

who are in the country and the number of people who

are leaving the country. This problem is much more

common       with   regard       to   people    who     are    travelling

overseas.



One     of    the        problems     that     the     department      has

encountered and which we are trying to address on a

day-to-day basis is the provision of ID documents
19 February 2004                                        Page 131 of 200


to citizens of the country. What we found is that a

number   of   South     Africans    who   are   still   not    in

possession      of   the   green   bar-coded    ID   books    are

living overseas. When they travel to South Africa

they   mostly    use    foreign    passports    to   enter    the

country. I think this is one of the areas in which

the    department      should   immediately     begin   with    a

campaign, namely to encourage those South Africans

who are overseas to start to apply for proper South

African citizenship, which is the green bar-coded

ID book. It's one challenge that I think this Bill

is seeking to address. This is the challenge that

we need to begin to address; those South Africans

who don't have proper ID books.



Furthermore, one of the problems that we are faced

with is that, even now during the elections that we

are going into, most of the South Africans, some of

whom reside in the country, who don't have green

bar-coded ID books - I think there are even some of

them in the DA - happen to be white South Africans.

Most of them are white South Africans who were not

registered like Africans were when they applied for

their ID books. Their fingerprints were not taken.
19 February 2004                                                 Page 132 of 200


White people's fingerprints were not taken; it's

only black people whose fingerprints were taken.



So, as we address this issue, it's a challenge that

the department needs to start a campaign again to

assist these hon members on this side here to get

the     green    bar-coded       ID    book.     On    that        note,

Minister, thank you very much for this short piece

of legislation. [Applause.]



Mnr I J PRETORIUS: Agb Voorsitter, dis nou baie

duidelik         dat       ons        voorsitter           van      die

portefeuljekomitee daarvan hou om twak te praat as

hy hier kom staan. [Tussenwerpsels.] Ek wil graag

vir u sê dat dit vir my aangenaam is om aan hierdie

debat     deel     te   neem.    (Translation         of    Afrikaans

paragraph follows.)



[Mr I J PRETORIUS: Hon Chairperson, it is now very

evident     that     our   chairperson      of     the      portfolio

committee enjoys talking nonsense when he stands

here. [Interjections.] I would like to say to you

that I am pleased to participate in this debate.]
19 February 2004                                                            Page 133 of 200


The hon Minister explained at length why we should

support this amending Bill. The Bill which we are

debating today seeks to amend the Citizenship Act

of    1995    so     as    to     repeal      an        existing      provision,

namely to deprive a South African of his or her

citizenship if such a person uses a passport of a

foreign       country        to       enter        or     depart        from      the

Republic of South Africa.



I    would    like      to   emphasise           the      following,          namely

that it only applies to South Africans who may have

dual    citizenship.            The    DA,       as      I've    said       in    the

beginning, supports the amendment because it brings

our Citizenship Act into line with section 20 of

our Constitution.



'n Land se burgerskap bring regte en verpligtings

mee.    Die    mees        fundamentele            reg        waaroor    'n      mens

beskik,       is    natuurlik          die     reg       om     te    kan        stem.

Burgerskap         bring        ook    verpligtings              mee,       en     die

Minister       van      Finansies          het     gister        in     die       Raad

inderdaad          'n     bevel,      as      ek        dit     so    mag        noem,

uitgevaardig            waarvolgens           alle        belastingbetalers
19 February 2004                                                Page 134 of 200


gedurende      die     volgende      jaar        sekere     verhoogde

belastings sal moet betaal.



Die reg om te kan stem, soos ek reeds gesê het, is

'n fundamentele reg en ek hoop van harte dat die

kiesers hulle met die verkiesing op Woensdag, 14

April    in    groot     getalle     by     die    DA     sal    skaar.

[Tussenwerpsels.] Dit is veral in die Wes-Kaap waar

ek 'n spesiale beroep op die kiesers wil doen en

hulle versoek om die opportunistiese en rigtinglose

Nuwe NP en die onbevoegde ANC in die provinsie te

verwerp. [Tussenwerpsels.]



Voorlopige werwingsyfers dui daarop dat die kiesers

van    die    Wes-Kaap    die   DA     in    groot      getalle   gaan

steun. [Tussenwerpsels.] Die DA staan 'n baie goeie

kans    om     die     provinsie       weer       terug     te     wen.

[Tussenwerpsels.] Daarom sê ek: gee die DA 'n kans

om die provinsie te regeer. [Tussenwerpsels.] Die

kiesers verdien 'n beter regering in die Wes-Kaap.

[Tussenwerpsels.]         Ek    dank        u.    (Translation       of

Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
19 February 2004                                              Page 135 of 200


[Citizenship        of   a    country        entails      rights    and

obligations. The most fundamental right which one

has is, of course, the right to vote. Citizenship

also    entails     obligations,         and       the   Minister       of

Finance actually issued an order, if I may call it

that,    in    the       Council        yesterday        whereby    all

taxpayers will have to pay certain increased taxes

in the course of next year.



The    right   to    vote,    as    I    have      indicated,      is   a

fundamental right, and I sincerely hope that with

the election on Wednesday, 14 April, voters will

join    the    ranks     of   the       DA    in     great   numbers.

[Interjections.] I want to make a special appeal to

voters, particularly in the Western Cape, and ask

them to reject the opportunistic and directionless

New NP and the incompetent ANC in the province.

[Interjections.]



Provisional recruitment figures indicate that the

voters of the Western Cape are going to support the

DA in great numbers. [Interjections.] The odds are

greatly in favour of the DA winning the province

back again. [Interjections.] Therefore I am saying:
19 February 2004                                                         Page 136 of 200


give the DA an opportunity to govern the province.

[Interjections.]              The      voters         deserve      a        better

government in the Western Cape. [Interjections.] I

thank you.]



Mrs    I   MARS:        Deputy      Speaker,          hon    Minister,         and

colleagues,           in      terms        of    actual         words,       this

amendment        to     the    1995      South        African     Citizenship

Bill is very small indeed. However, these very few

words      are    of        significance,         as       they    amend       the

current          Bill         in      terms           of     constitutional

requirements. The current South African Citizenship

Bill    permits         the    Minister          to    revoke      the      South

African      citizenship            of      a     person        involved       in

unauthorised use of a foreign passport.



Madam Speaker ... Oh, I'm sorry, Deputy Chair, we

are aware that many states throughout the world do

not     allow     dual        citizenship.            However,     as       South

Africa has chosen to permit such dual citizenship,

this    amendment           seeks     to    clarify         the    conditions

under      which        a     person       can    make       use       of     dual

citizenship, in other words, a second passport and,

more importantly, defines the sanctions that can be
19 February 2004                                                   Page 137 of 200


imposed if such a person uses the second passport

to leave and re-enter the Republic of South Africa.

Such sanctions consist of a fine or imprisonment,

if found guilty, not exceeding 12 months.



We    note   with       interest       that       this      amendment    has

positive implications for the grossly understaffed

Department        of    Home    Affairs,          as   it    removes     the

onerous requirements for Home Affairs personnel to

process applications for exemption for the use of a

second passport.



The    IFP   supports          the    South       African     Citizenship

Amendment Bill. I thank you.



Mr S PILLAY: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. The New

NP supports the Bill and accepts that it is in line

with the Constitution and other legal provisions.

It    is   good    to    have        such    legislation        passed    in

Parliament.



However, our concern lies in its implementation. At

present,     the        Department           of     Home      Affairs     is

understaffed,           lacks        basic        resources      and     the
19 February 2004                                            Page 138 of 200


equipment at almost every office where they exist.

In many areas, like Phoenix, Lenasia, KwaMashu and

Katlehong, there are only service points. Some are

in a very shabby and disreputable condition. How

will the department enforce this legislation under

such trying conditions?



There is some hope with the introduction of the

turn-around strategy as it is being implemented by

the    Director-General.       Serious      efforts     should    be

made by the department to adequately resource and

staff the offices as well as the service points. We

trust    that    the    Minister    will    urgently    deal     with

such critical and outstanding issues. On a recent

visit to the Katlehong service point, we found over

150     people    waiting    to     be    attended     to   by   one

official and one volunteer. That is certainly not

acceptable. At the Lenasia service point, we found

over 250 people waiting to be attended to by two

officials and three volunteers.



There has to be an urgency in addressing the matter

of    staff     and    resources.    If    this   matter    is   not

attended to, additional stress is visited upon the
19 February 2004                                                  Page 139 of 200


officials,      some     of     whom   are    very      dedicated       and

diligent.       At     the       Johannesburg           Airport,        the

computers went offline for various time periods. A

definite effort must be made to address this.

Deputy Chair, in conclusion, we state again that

such legislation is only as good and effective as

its implementation. I thank you.



Ms   C   DUDLEY:     Hon      Deputy   Chair,      the     ACDP    is   in

favour of the South African Citizenship Amendment

Bill,    the   object      of    which,      as   the     Minister      has

said, is to bring the Act in line with section 20

of the national Constitution that reads as follows:

``No citizen may be deprived of citizenship''. This

is positive legislation and is welcomed by the ACDP

and, hopefully, will free up Home Affairs to be

dealing with the many priorities that it has to

deal with.



Currently the Minister could deprive a person of

South African citizenship by virtue of the use of

the citizenship of another country. This provision

will     be   repealed     and    deprivation        of    citizenship

will now be replaced with the sanction as specified
19 February 2004                                                Page 140 of 200


in the Bill, namely, ``is guilty of an offence and

liable on conviction to a fine or imprisonment not

exceeding 12 months''.



The ACDP is also supportive of the suggestion that

a   record    be    kept     of    persons     who,    for     whatever

reason,      were    deprived          of   their     South     African

citizenship,        bearing       in    mind   however        that    the

department's        legal    advisers       were    unaware     of    any

such cases since 1996. We will vote in favour of

this legislation. Thank you.



Mr M R SIKAKANE: Deputy Chair, I rise in support of

the input made by the Minister, as well as the

chairperson of the portfolio committee, but I will

further elaborate as to why we seek an amendment of

the citizenship Act of 1995. We are doing this in

the spirit of Batho Pele, which is our motto to

always put people first. We do this to repeal a

provision     in     terms    of       which   a    person      may    be

deprived of citizenship by virtue of the use of the

citizenship of another country. In our view we saw

this as unjust and unconstitutional. Wisdom should

at all times prevail.
19 February 2004                                            Page 141 of 200


Instead of deprivation we are providing for other

penalties,     not    the   loss   of    citizenship,       and   for

matters connected therewith. Be it enacted by this

Parliament     that    section     9    of   the   South    African

Citizenship Act, Act 88 of 1995 is hereby repealed.

Therefore we insert section 26B of Act 88 of 1995

after section 26A. We are now saying the usage -

which is the core reason for this amendment - of

foreign      citizenship     by    people       who    enter      the

Republic or depart from the Republic making use of

a   passport   of     another    country     or,    while   in    the

Republic makes use of his or her citizenship of

another country in order to gain advantage or avoid

a responsibility or duty - that is an offence and

liable, on conviction, to a fine or imprisonment

for a period not exceeding 24 months.



I would have loved to hear people who spoke about

the   dual    citizenship,      thank    this      Government     and

this House because right around the world there are

almost none who provide for dual citizenship. It is

only in this country where we still provide for

dual citizenship, which is all done in the spirit

of people first. So I would love, when we close
19 February 2004                             Page 142 of 200


here, for people to honour and always remember the

one thing we have learned from this House and this

movement, the ANC; Whatever we do, we put people

first. It would be worthwhile to have said: I was

once in Parliament. In your life you carry that

along with you, more especially the people whom we

have dragged over the years - the DA. They have

never learnt a thing but, in the end, after 10

years they might have learned something. Thank you

very much.



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Chairperson

and members, I would like to thank all the members

for their contributions, although I must confess

that it is obtuse to me why the chairperson of the

portfolio committee thinks that I should start a

campaign to help those who haven't got their IDs

because it is actually imperative that they should

apply for them themselves. I don't see that it is

my function to start a campaign to assist them.



Furthermore, I would like to say, in relation to

the hon Mr Pillay, that yesterday when our Minister

of Finance presented this House with the Budget, he
19 February 2004                                               Page 143 of 200


mentioned      that   Home        Affairs        is    one     of   the

departments that were given quite a bit of that

portfolio,     and    he    mentioned       the       importance     of

infrastructure creation. Home Affairs, in fact, was

depleted of resources as far as the majority of

this country is concerned, because it catered only

for the minority of this country. It's not my fault

that   there   was    one   person     at    the      Market    Street

branch and one volunteer and so on. I mean I do not

know. I have said this ad nauseam here, standing at

this   podium,    over      the    past     10    years      that   the

resources that were made available to my department

were limited. I have said it over and over again,

and it's a fact of life. I would like to thank

members for their contributions. Thank you.



Debate concluded.



Bill read a second time.



        FILMS AND PUBLICATIONS AMENDMENT BILL



                 (Second Reading debate)
19 February 2004                                                       Page 144 of 200


The     MINISTER         OF     HOME         AFFAIRS:           Hon        Deputy

Chairperson        and        hon     members,           the     Films        and

Publications Amendment Bill has been motivated by

prosecutors        and        police.        Having        in        the     past

highlighted         the        frustrations              experienced           in

investigations and the prosecution of recent child

pornography        offenders,         noting       in    particular          that

the accused often escape penal sanction provided by

the Act on         grounds which they did not apply to

offences of a similarly serious nature, the Bill

seeks    to   make       amendments          to    the     definition         of

"child pornography", because the present definition

is limiting, in that it does not cover all aspects

relating      to     child          pornography.          The        Film     and

Publication        Board      will    be     empowered          to    regulate

publications,        containing         visual          presentations          or

descriptions referred to in Schedules 1 or 2, so as

to prevent access to such materials by children.



The      creation,            production,               possession            and

distribution of child pornography, as well as the

failure to report it, are offences punishable in

terms    of    this        Bill.       The        Bill    also        includes
19 February 2004                                                  Page 145 of 200


amendments    to     increase       the    maximum     penalty          for

offences involving child pornography to 10 years.



The   Bill    introduces         the      following       provisions:

Clause   1(a)       seeks      to    substitute       the         present

definition     of       "child      pornography"      with        a     new

definition. Clause 1(b) will delete the definition

of the word "degrade", because it is unnecessarily

limiting to the extent that it is gender-biased and

does not take into account the violation of human

dignity in its totality. Clause 1(c) substitutes

the present definition of "distribute" with a new

definition, so as to include the failure to take

reasonable steps to prevent access to pornographic

material by children.



Clause   1(d)        defines         "internal       address"           and

"internal    service      provider",       which     is   necessary,

since the Bill also brings the Internet within the

jurisdiction       of    the     Act,     in   so   far      as       child

pornography     is       concerned.       Clause      1(e)        defines

"possession", which is necessary, since the Act now

also covers the Internet. Clause 1(f) substitutes

the definition of "sexual conduct" as is defined in
19 February 2004                                             Page 146 of 200


Schedule     11,     for   the   reason    that       the    present

definition is not only too limiting, but is also

restricted only for the purpose of the Schedules.

Clause 2 introduces the office of the chairperson

of   the     board,    which     will    also    be    the    chief

executive officer. It also be the chief executive

officer. It also deals with the manner in which

decisions of the board are taken.



Clause 3 amends subsection 2 of section 5 of the

Act which refers to "President", whereas it should

refer to the "Minister". Clause 4 provides for the

reporting by the board on all its activities during

that financial year.



Clause 5 deals with the manner of convening the

meetings of the board or the executive committee.

Clause 6 amends section 17 of the Act to allow the

board   to    more    effectively       regulate      publications

containing     visual      presentations        or    descriptions

referred to in Schedules 1 or 2, so as to prevent

access thereto by children.
19 February 2004                                         Page 147 of 200


Clause   7   amends    section    18   of   the    Act   to   make

recreational films and interactive computer games

more effective in the interests of the protection

of children. Clause 8 amends section 20 of the Act,

so as to remove the limitation of the powers of the

Review Board.



Clause   9   is   a   necessary   amendment       following     the

amendment    of   section   17    in   clause     3.   Clause   10

amends section 26 of the Act to include the offence

of broadcasting any film which has been classified

XX in accordance with Schedule 6 or 10.



Clause 11 amends section 27 of the Act by making

clearer what would constitute the offence of "child

pornography", as well as introducing the offence of

failing to report child pornography and removing

the requirement of the authority of the Directorate

of Public Prosecutions for the issue of a search

warrant in cases involving child pornography, so as

to bring the investigation and prosecution of child

pornography offenders in line with the requirements

of other serious offences.
19 February 2004                                                   Page 148 of 200


The amendment also addresses the problem of child

pornography on the Internet by requiring Internet

service providers to register with the board and by

making noncompliance an offence.

Clause 12 deletes subsection 3 of section 28 which

unnecessarily           delays    the      prosecution           process.

Clause    13     amends    subsection        1    of    section       29   to

include      a    prohibition      on      the      broadcasting           of

publications          covered    by     section          29(1)        as   an

offence.



Clause 14 is an amendment of section 20 of the Act,

which is the penalties provision for consistency

with amendments to the offence provisions of the

Act. The amendments also provide for an increase in

the   amount       of     the    maximum         penalty     for       child

pornography offences, from the present five to ten

years.



Clause    11     also    introduces     an       admission       of    guilt

provision for the less serious offences in the Act,

as    well       as       providing      for           extraterritorial

jurisdiction in cases where South African citizens

commit     acts       outside     the    country           which       would
19 February 2004                                                       Page 149 of 200


constitute offences under the Act, had they been

committed inside the country. This amendment also

provides for presumptions and proof to facilitate

more effective prosecution.



Clause     15          seeks       to     amend    Schedule      1    of     the

principal Act in so far as including incest or rape

as additional grounds for classifying a publication

as XX. Clause 16 amends Schedule 2 of the principal

Act in order to cover those cases provided for in

Schedule       1       or     2.    Clause        17   provides       for   age

restrictions            for    publications.           Clause    18    deletes

clause 1, as the clause is unnecessary. Clause 19

deals with the prohibition of promotion of hatred.

Clause 20 deletes section 11 of the principal Act

in total. Clause 21 provides for the short title of

the    Bill,       this       being      the   Films    and     Publications

Amendment Bill.



As the incumbent Minister who has introduced the

original Bill to Parliament, I am required to urge

this    House       to      accept       the   Films    and     Publications

Amendment Bill. However, I feel duty-bound to place

on    record       a    number          of   concerns    which    have      been
19 February 2004                                                       Page 150 of 200


raised      in    representations          made          to    me,    as     the

incumbent Minister, and to the portfolio committee,

that have remained unaddressed.



Since I introduced the Bill to Parliament, certain

amendments        have    been    made     to       it    and      additional

considerations           were    brought       to     the      fore,       which

raised   concerns         about    its     constitutionality,                and

policy   desirability.           There     is    no      doubt       that    the

fight    against         child    pornography            is    a     righteous

cause    which      requires       our        full       and    unqualified

support.



However, it may happen that at times one does the

wrong thing for the right reason, and I am not

satisfied that some of the concerns raised about

this Bill by the public do not make this Bill fall

inside that category.



The concern has been expressed that the Bill is

unconstitutional,          because       it     interferes           with    the

matters which in terms of the Constitution ought to

be   left    to    the     independent          institution           that   is

established        in     terms     of        section          190    of     the
19 February 2004                                            Page 151 of 200


Constitution. I received credible legal opinions in

this sense. However, I received no advice from my

department confirming or denying this concern and

its import.



There is also the constitutional and policy concern

that     by    forcing   Internet      service     providers      to

verify        the   contents      of   web      sites,     we     are

effectively asking the mailman, as it were, to open

the envelope to verify that it does not contain

illegal material, which violates the most ancient

notion of freedom of communication.



An additional concern is that the Bill, albeit to a

very   limited      extent,     reintroduces     the     notion   of

pre-emptive censorship prior to publication, which

in 1994 we committed ourselves to forever expunge

from our legal system, because it is repulsive to

the    values       of    our     democratic       and      liberal

Constitution.



I have considered withdrawing this Bill to enable

the       serious        issues        raised       about         its

constitutionality and desirability to be addressed,
19 February 2004                                                 Page 152 of 200


so that we do not end up doing the wrong thing for

the right reasons. However, I know that had I done

so, a political furore would have been generated,

ascribing      to    my    action      a    political     agenda      and

motive.    Therefore        I   have    chosen      to   rely    on   the

wisdom    of   this       House,   and      let   the    House   decide

whether this Bill should be proceeded with at this

juncture. I thank you.



Mr H P CHAUKE: Thank you very much, Chairperson. I

am not going to deal much with my speech now. I

will put it aside, and begin to address the issues

that     the    Minister        has        raised    regarding        the

unconstitutionality of this Bill. Firstly, I think

a workshop needs to be arranged for the Minister to

understand     the    parliamentary          procedures     when      the

Bill is before Parliament.



This Bill was brought to the portfolio committee by

the Minister. In Parliament, we have what we call

Government legal advisers who help the portfolio

committees and the parliamentary legal advisers who

are in the portfolio committee. We arranged what we

call public hearings where we invited the public to
19 February 2004                                                Page 153 of 200


come    and   make      submissions         to        the     portfolio

committee,    which     they       did.    When      they     came,   we

allowed them to make submissions. After they left,

we then considered those submissions and looked at

which ones we could take up. From there, the Bill

comes to Parliament, which is this very exercise.

If the Minister is not happy about the Bill, the

Rules of Parliament allow the Minister to withdraw

the Bill. He can take the Bill and state that he is

withdrawing the Bill. If he doesn't and allows the

process to carry on, the President will then decide

to     withdraw       the      Bill        if        he     finds     it

unconstitutional.



Now, the Minister has raised a number of issues.

We, together with his department - Rufus Malatji,

Sam Mogotsi and others - engaged on this Bill. They

were part and parcel of the public hearings. Last

year, when we took a decision to refer them back to

meet   with   other    stakeholders,            it   was    very    clear

that some of the issues were not addressed. We then

sent   them   back    to    meet    with    other         stakeholders,

together with the Film and Publication Board, to

refine this Bill and bring it back to us.
19 February 2004                                                          Page 154 of 200


Now,    they    have        done      that.    They     consulted            with

everybody. That was confirmed by your department.

Today,     after       we    deliberated         on    the          Bill,     the

Minister       says     he       is     not     happy           and       intends

withdrawing      the        Bill,     because     this      may        cause    a

political row. I am not sure if that is the truth,

Minister;       it's    not      being       honest.     The          portfolio

committee has done its work. We have done our work

wonderfully. This is one very important piece of

legislation that deals with child pornography. All

of us are aware of that. Today, we have gone into

great detail on the content of this Bill, Minister.

I don't understand why, at the end of the day, the

Minister    should          make      this    particular            statement.

[Interjections.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon

Minister, are you rising on a point of order?



The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: I wasn't trying to

criticise      the     portfolio        committee.          I       was    merely

stating what some people have said. I'll explain

the    reason    why,       in     fact,      there    is       a     political
19 February 2004                                           Page 155 of 200


dilemma about that, about whether I'll take this or

not. [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you. I

think the hon member has the opportunity now to

respond to some of the statements that were made

and     I     think      that   is     what     he   is    doing.

[Interjections.]



Mr H P CHAUKE: The Minister raised the issue that

the people have raised a concern with him. If it's

Internet service providers you are referring to,

Minister,         your   department,     together       with   the

portfolio committee, have interacted with all of

them.       The   association   that    deals    with     Internet

service providers made their presentation together

with Cell C, MTN, and Vodacom. All of them made

their presentation to the portfolio committee. The

Bill now simple says ``knowingly'' or knowing that

your Internet line is being used to download child

pornography, and if you were made aware and you

don't act, that's where the Bill then comes into

enforcement, which I think is a wonderful thing.
19 February 2004                                                Page 156 of 200


I don't understand the argument that the Minister

is     putting       forward,     because      if     it's    politics,

Minister, then let us not use this platform to deal

with       politics       ...   [Applause.]         Let's    allow    the

process       of    this   Bill   to    go    on,    because    we   are

addressing a very serious problem here.



Let me tell you something that I want to share with

the Minister. Maybe he is not aware of it. The day

we voted on this Bill in the portfolio committee,

we waited for about 15 minutes for the hon Waters,

who     was        busy    consulting        with    your     political

adviser, hon Mr Ambrosini, who even came to the

portfolio committee that day and instructed Rufus

Malatji and Mogotsi to withdraw the Bill without

even talking to the chairperson. Now, all along,

Waters and the DA were in support of the Bill.

[Interjections.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon

Waters.



Mr     H     P     CHAUKE:      The    only     problem       is     that

intervention of Mr Ambrosini's led to the DA no
19 February 2004                                                Page 157 of 200


longer supporting the Bill. All along they had been

supporting it. [Interjections.]



We definitely have to be very honest. The problems

that     we    are    addressing       here     are     very    serious

problems and definitely, Minister, you have gone

into detail on what this Bill is addressing. The

other issues are just political issues, Minister,

put them aside. Let's carry on with the Bill and

address the problems that are facing the country.

[Applause.]



Mr   M   WATERS:       Thank    you.    Deputy        Chair    and       hon

Minister, the initial intentions of the amendments

to the Films and Publications Act were to tighten

control       over   child     pornography.      However,       in       its

quest     for        ever-increasing          centralisation             and

control, the ANC has slipped into these amendments

censorship that can only be compared to that of the

apartheid NP. [Interjections.] We concur with the

hon Minister in that regard.



These     amendments      have     very       little    to     do    with

combating      child    pornography       and    have    more       to    do
19 February 2004                                         Page 158 of 200


with what adults can and cannot see. The original

intentions     of    the     amendments      were   to        close

loopholes that existed regarding child pornography.

These amendments have been in the pipeline for over

two years and were ready for tabling in Parliament

over a year ago. The DA has called for them to be

tabled on numerous occasions. However, the Deputy

Minister of Home Affairs, who is responsible for

the Film and Publication Board, only tabled these

amendments in September last year.



Currently, Deputy Chair, there are over 1 million

images    of   child      abuse   in   circulation       on    the

Internet, and it's estimated that about 90% of all

paedophile-related activities involve the Internet.

According to a Sunday Times report, there are over

100 000 websites that offer child pornography.



The DA welcomes any steps that will combat this

awful crime. Let us be honest with ourselves: Child

pornography is a sick crime and to me it's the

sickest of all. It is hard to imagine how the sight

of a child being raped and tortured hold any sexual

appeal.   If   we,   as    the    people's   representatives,
19 February 2004                                                  Page 159 of 200


fail to act in stopping this crime, then we shall

have failed dismally in our duties.



I would like to touch on the positive aspects of

the   amendments.      Firstly,        under    the    current      law,

possession,      creation        and    distribution         of     child

pornography are all lumped together as one offence.

The proposed amendments separate these offences for

the purposes of sentencing. This would allow the

courts     to   hand   down      stiffer   sentences         for    more

serious crimes.



Secondly, clause 27(2) of the Bill proposes to make

it    an   offence     if    a   person    who       knows    or     even

suspects that a crime is taking place pertaining to

child pornography fails to report the crime. This

is a special provision as a general duty in terms

of the law to report a crime, which currently does

not exist. A person will only be prosecuted with

the written authority of the National Director of

Public Prosecutions.



Lastly,     there      was       initial       concern       from    the

cellphone       companies,        Telkom       and    the     Internet
19 February 2004                                                       Page 160 of 200


Service     Providers            Association          regarding              the

broadcasting and distribution of child pornography.

It      would      be        impossible        to      expect           these

organisations to monitor every piece of information

that flows through their systems on a daily basis.

This would be like asking the Post Office to open

every    piece     of     mail    that     passes       through         their

system. It's basically impossible.



However,    after        inserting       the        words    "knowingly"

before the words "broadcasts or distributes", their

concerns    seem        to     have   been     addressed           to    some

degree.



This    brings     us    to     the   clauses        that        the    DA   is

opposed to; and it's unfortunate that the ANC took

this opportunity to use the back door to bring back

good     old-fashioned            apartheid-style                censorship.

[Interjections.]         I     will   focus     on     two       amendments

which are frightening, to say the least, that have

absolutely nothing to do with child pornography. I

repeat:     They        have     nothing       to     do     with        child

pornography,       but         with   everything            to     do    with

censorship.
19 February 2004                                           Page 161 of 200


 Firstly, the Film and Publication Board, under

 clause   29,    wants   to    expand      its    authority   over

 broadcasting        which     has    serious      implications.

 According      to   section    192   of    the    Constitution,

 broadcasting is the sole jurisdiction of Icasa.

 Section 192 states that:



National legislation must establish an independent

authority to regulate broadcasting in the public

interest, and to ensure fairness and a diversity of

views broadly representing South African society.



These amendments trample on that independence. Both

Icasa and the National Association of Broadcasters

have objected to this amendment but to no avail.



In the past, the DA and the IFP have had a number

of broadcasting laws sent back and amended on the

same points when Government tried to usurp Icasa's

powers. No doubt, hon Minister, you'll be back here

later   this   year    doing    the   same       again,   amending

these amendments to bring them back in line with

the Constitution.
19 February 2004                                                 Page 162 of 200


Icasa is an independent body, established through

the Constitution and appointed by Parliament while

the Minister of Home Affairs, whoever that will be

at   the    time,      appoints     a    Films     and     Publication

Board. There is no guarantee that the board will

remain independent and it could become a political

appointment.          This       amendment        would,       clearly,

encroach on the independence of broadcasting in our

country.



Secondly,     under      clause    10,     which   deals       with    the

promotion       of     hatred,    the    board     wants       to     take

jurisdiction presently resting with the courts to

include "race, ethnicity, or gender'' as criteria

for banning films and publications if, when judged

within     context,      advocates      hatred     on    one    or    more

grounds."       This     has     nothing     to    do     with       child

pornography but it does re-introduce censorship on

political grounds by an administrative body.



Currently, section 29 of the Act makes provision

for the courts to decide whether a film exceeds

bona     fide        literary,     artistic,        political,          or

scientific free speech and constitutes hate speech.
19 February 2004                                                Page 163 of 200


The   court       process   allows     for    appeals     up    to    the

Supreme Court of Appeal based on the merits of the

case while the suggested option would mean that a

statutory         administrative       body      would    have        the

authority to ban films and publications.



Currently, the only material banned in our country,

and   thus    classified         as   XX   and   forbidden       to    be

broadcast - which everyone agrees with, I certainly

hope - is child pornography, bestiality, explicit

sexual material which includes violence, material

that degrades and certain forms of awful violence.

What we are opening the door to, Deputy Chair, is a

potentially political board becoming the conscience

of our nation, rather like the thought police. It

is a sad day when the ruling party uses a serious

issue    such      as    child    pornography      to    reintroduce

apartheid-style             censorship.           [Interjections.]

Perhaps the ANC is learning a lot more from its

junior alliance partners than we first imagined.



The     DA    wholeheartedly          supports      the        original

intentions and many aspects of this Bill. However,

because      of    the   ANC's    additional      unconstitutional
19 February 2004                                              Page 164 of 200


amendments      and      the   reintroduction        of     political

censorship in South Africa, the DA cannot support

this Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]



Mrs I MARS: Thank you, Deputy Chair. Colleagues,

the Films and Publications Amendment Bill before

the House today calls for the stricter control of

child pornography in all its ramifications. We in

this    House      acknowledge      our       responsibility        to

protect our nation's children - I will focus on

this    as   our    major      concern    -    and      therefore   we

acknowledge        the    difficulties        we   as     legislators

experience in tightening up matters involving the

ever-more       sophisticated       information            technology

available to those who are abusing our children,

particularly through the medium of the Internet.



It is for this reason that we are seeking to amend

the Act by tightening up on the definition of child

pornography to improve the terminology used and to

bring greater clarity to specific aspects of the

Act. A major aspect of the amendment deals with the

Internet, namely the insertion in the principal Act

thus,
19 February 2004                                                     Page 165 of 200


    Every Internet provider shall register with the

    Board    in   the     manner     prescribed         by    regulations

    made    under    this     Act,      and    take     all       reasonable

    steps to prevent the use of their services for

    the      hosting        and      distribution              of      child

    pornography.



The onus is on the service provider, once he is

aware that his service is used for the distribution

of child pornography - and this, to us, is a huge

improvement on the previous provisions - to report

the existence of such a site to the South African

Police      Service     and   to     preserve      any       evidence    for

investigation on and/or prosecutions.



I    do     not   see     this     as     a     return       to     previous

legislation         and     interference          with        freedom     of

expression, because the children of our country are

our future and we have to do everything we can

possibly do to protect them. [Applause]. Users, if

so requested by the South African Police Services,

have to be identified. Non-compliance with these

requirements        constitute       an       offence    and       sanctions

are defined under section 12. These provisions are
19 February 2004                                         Page 166 of 200


essential if we want to curb the abuse of children

via the Internet by those perverts who get pleasure

in     degrading   children,    as    I   said   before,    our

nation's greatest asset.



Terminology,        such       as      service       providers

"unknowingly"      distributing      child   pornography    has

been    changed    to   "knowingly",      thereby   no   longer

allowing the service provider to hide behind the

term "unknowingly". Once reported and made aware,

as we said before, prosecution may well follow.



This amendment deals with many of the issues the

portfolio committee grappled with before agreeing

to the principal Act in 1995, and those of us who

were around will remember the intensive debate that

took place at that time. To me, it was re-assuring

to note that problems raised at that time have not

been ignored, and that we have an amending Bill

that answers many of the concerns we as legislators

and parents needed to have addressed to protect our

children from those that prey on their innocence

and rob them of their childhood.
19 February 2004                                          Page 167 of 200


The IFP, in supporting the Bill, would also like to

state   that    the   Film    and   Publication    Board      falls

under the Deputy Minister. I thank you. [Applause.]



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair,

hon Minister Shenge, hon members and dear friends,

in July last year James McNeil was found guilty and

sentenced      to     five      years'      imprisonment        for

possession of 4 200 images of child pornography and

10 video clips of the same material in the much-

publicised     "Father       Christmas    case".   He    is     now

serving his sentence at Pollsmoor Prison where, at

least for five years, he will not have anything to

do with our children.



The case of McNeil, who was 72 years old at the

time of his sentencing, shows the seriousness of

the problem that we are encountering in our country

in dealing with the abuse of children through the

medium of the Internet. That even a man old enough

to be a grandfather to most of us could be involved

in   these     acts   of     cruelty     shows   the    level   of

sickness of certain people in our society. It shows
19 February 2004                                                Page 168 of 200


that the danger is real and that the solution can

no longer continue to be only academic.



The    many    cases    that     have    been    reported      recently

also    bring     to    the     fore     another      reality,      that

demonstrates       that       problem    is    well    and    alive   in

South    Africa.       Pornography       is    not    just   something

that is happening across the shores, but it is a

crime with real victims who are South African and,

therefore, the law needs to make it possible for us

to protect our children.



After many years and a repeated public outcry, the

work that has been done has finally resulted in the

Bill being presented before this House. This work

has    involved     consultations         with       law   enforcement

agencies, the prosecutors, child protection units

of     the    police,     academics,          community      activists,

NGOs, the Internet service providers, and before it

was finalised, the Bill itself had to go through

many versions of redrafting. We are certain that

the product that is presented before you today is

the     one     that      takes        into     account       all     the

contributions,          and     that     every       role-player       is
19 February 2004                                                Page 169 of 200


satisfied that this is the best way to approach the

problem.



As has already been hinted at, the Bill itself aims

to make it much more easier for law enforcers to

bring to book the online paedophiles; it seeks to

bring under the regulation of the Act the Internet

service     providers      and      to   create      liability        or

obligations     on   their       part    to     help        reduce   the

scourge of child abuse online.



We   intend,    through      this    Bill,      to     increase      the

maximum sentence for such crimes from five years to

10 years, while at the same time removing child

pornography     from       the   category       of      classifiable

material, both in the film and the Internet, so

that it is purely regarded as criminal in terms of

the law.



In   line    with    the    recommendations            of     the    King

Report, we also intend to make structural changes

to   the    composition     of   the     Film    and        Publication

Board. Additional to fighting child pornography on

the Internet, we will also ensure that children are
19 February 2004                                                Page 170 of 200


protected from harmful material. In this regard, we

will     make    it     punishable       for    adults,       including

parents, who do not take reasonable steps to ensure

that     if     they    are      in    possession        of    ordinary

pornographic material, children do not have access

to such images. [Applause.]



We are of the opinion that this law is more than

long overdue. We are also very optimistic about the

possibilities for a much more vigorous approach in

our fight against these paedophiles as a result of

these amendments.



One of the immediate benefits of these amendments

is that we will be able to work hand in hand with

the    Internet        service    providers         in   launching     a

public hotline through which the public can report

violations of this Act, both on the Internet and in

film, including other material such as interactive

games,        magazines    and        DVDs.    We    are      happy   to

announce, as part of this process, that the hotline

will be up and running by the end of April this

year, and I have been given the undertaking by the
19 February 2004                                                  Page 171 of 200


board    that    all        preparations         are    being    made    to

ensure that we meet this deadline.



Deputy      Chair,      I     would    like        to    emphasise       in

particular the amendment that deals with section 27

of   the      Act,     the    area     in    which       we     had    some

difficulties during our consultation process with

other       role-players,        particularly            the     Internet

service providers. I'm also happy to say that all

these difficulties have now been ironed out. The

section       itself     deals       with    the        definitions      of

possession and the creation of child pornography.



I am singling this one out for the reason that

there are others in our society who have argued

that simply because they are in research or art,

they should be allowed the constitutional right to

keep child pornography, as if these amendments were

to deny them that right. In that case the state

would    be    trampling       on     the    Constitution         of    our

country.



In   line     with   the     judgment       of    the    Constitutional

Court in the De Reuck case, we are of the view that
19 February 2004                                                    Page 172 of 200


such     restrictions          do,    in        fact,     satisfy        the

limitations analysis stemming from the provisions

of   our      Constitution,     that      the    protection         of    our

children       should,    in   terms      of    the     law,   supersede

everything        else.        [Applause.]            That     is        what

Government has in mind as we present this Bill to

you here today.



Let me reiterate our commitment to the protection

of such important rights as the right to freedom of

expression and the right to privacy, as enshrined

in our Constitution. I must, however, stress that

we feel that the limitation of these rights, which

is     also    provided     for      in    the     Constitution,           is

clearly justifiable when it comes to the protection

of our children. [Applause.]



Currently,       the     department        of     education         in   the

Gauteng province is busy with the final roll-out of

computers in schools, through the Gauteng on-Line

Project. This is going to make computers and the

Internet available to thousands of students in the

schools, making each one of them and their teachers

possible victims of cyber crime, including access
19 February 2004                                           Page 173 of 200


to    pornography   or    as    subjects    of     child     abuse

online. Owing to these and other developments in

the homes and at workplaces, we have decided that

the    board    should   conduct     Internet      Safety     for

Schools Programmes in all provinces.



Child pornography or abuse of children online is

but one of the pervasive and deep-rooted problems

of sexual abuse of children. The protection of our

children    needs   to   be    holistic,   hence    our    belief

that Parliament's support of legislation, such as

this piece of legislation, is paramount. It should

be important for us that children should feel safe

and be allowed the right to grow up in a society

free from      violence, abuse, hunger and injustice.

Children are the most vulnerable in our society.

The only protection that they can ever know is that

which we as parents can provide them.



I am sure that in our conscience, it should count a

lot that we can go to sleep today, knowing that we

made a difference; that the humiliation, suffering

and pain of a child, even if it is one child, can

be avoided as a result of what we are doing here
19 February 2004                                             Page 174 of 200


right now. I make a plea to all of us here in

appreciation of our duty to society, not only as

public representatives, but as parents as well.



Bantu beNkosi, ndifun' ukuthi, mhlawumbi le ndaba

yemifanekiso        yabantwana        enamanyala,             ichild

pornography,      ayikaqondakali          kubanye    bethu      kuba

singenabo abantwana. Kambe bazali, le ngxaki ayikho

kwiikhompyutha      kuphela.     Ndifuna      ukucela        kakhulu

kumzi omnyama ukuba uqwalasele ngoba thina asizazi

ezinye zezi zinto. Abantwana bethu bafotwa singazi.

Ngelinye ixesha umfota eze umntwana wakho ungazi,

ukuba kuza kubakho igqwirha eliza kuthi xa lidibana

nelo foto lomntwana wakho oze, lilithabathe liye

kulisebenzisela          zinye     iinjongo         ezingcolileyo

nezimdaka.



Kanti    kukho    enye    into   ekhulileyo         apho    sihlala

khona:     Abantu    abeza       ngokungathi         bandwendwele

njengabakhenkethi,        bafike     bathabathe        abantwana,

babanike    imali   bahambe,       baye    kubafota        emacaleni

beze.    Okanye   abantwana      benziswe     izinto       ezithile

ezimdaka,    ezingcolileyo,        ekungafanelekanga           ukuba

bazenze, nanjengoko bengabantwana. Aba bantu bafota
19 February 2004                                               Page 175 of 200


abantwana       bethu       bemile       benganxibanga      ngezantsi,

baze         babanike        iimali        -      abantwana      bethu

bayahlupheka,             bafun'     iimali       zesidlo     sasemini

esikolweni.          Ezo     foto       zithi   zithatyathwe      ziye

kusetyenziswa ngezinye iindlela. Ingeyiyo laa foto

yomntwana obefotwe emile, eze. Ngoku sele iyifoto

ebonisa       umntwana        egocwagocwa,         esenziwa     ezinye

izinto ngumntu omdala. Injalo le nto.



Uyabona       ke,    xa    wena     ungazalanga,     futhi    ungenalo

usizi akubi nankathalo. Abanye abantu abangazalanga

babanayo laa ntlungu. Bayayiva intlungu ngezi zinto

le     nto    imbi     ngakumbi         kwaba   bantwana     babiwayo;

Abantwana abakwezi internet, abasetyenziswayo kwezi

zinto,        ngabantwana            abazibone       bekwezi      meko

bengakhange bazi nabazali babo bengenalwazi.



Wena    ke    oza    kuthetha       ezo   lwimi    uzithethayo,    Mnu

Waters, ongekabinguye umzali ukubonakalisa ukungabi

nankathalo.          (Translation          of     Xhosa     paragraphs

follows.)



[The    DEPUTY       MINISTER      OF    HOME   AFFAIRS:     People,   I

want to say that perhaps child pornography is not
19 February 2004                                                     Page 176 of 200


very clear to some of us, because some of us may

not have children. I would like to let parents know

that this problem is not only due to the use of

computers,        and     I    would    specifically         say    this      to

black families, as these things are new to us. Our

children are photographed without our knowing that

and    sometimes        one     would    take    a    photograph         of    a

child not knowing that it would later on be used by

some witch who would have very sinister and dirty

ideas.



We    are   also     witnessing         growth    in       the    number      of

people who come as tourists and give our children

money, take them to secluded areas and take photos

of them naked. Some children are told to do things

that they are not supposed to do as children. These

people      would    pose       half-naked       with      the     children.

Children take the money they are given because they

are poor and would want to use the money to buy

lunch at school perhaps. Those photographs would be

later used for pornographic purposes. That is the

reality      of     the       situation.    If       you    do     not   have

children      or     are        not     compassionate            about   this

problem, you speak insensitively about the issue.
19 February 2004                                            Page 177 of 200


Other people who do not have children do feel for

those who do. It is particularly children who have

been stolen from their families who are exposed to

this dirty activity. Our children are being abused

online,      through   the    medium   of   the    Internet.      The

parents of the children who are involved in child

pornography and the children themselves do not know

how they got involved in it.



Mr Waters, for you to speak the way you do now,

just    because   you    do    not   have   children,       is   very

insensitive.]



I    don't   really    believe    that     you    already    have   a

child. You are insensitive and do not understand

the urgency of some of these matters because you

don't know anything about parenthood. [Applause.]

[Interjections.] ...



An    HON    MEMBER:    It    took   you    two    years    to    ...

[Inaudible.] ...



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Yes, it took

me two years. Yes, I delayed them for a reason, but
19 February 2004                                              Page 178 of 200


the good thing is that there was ultimately proper

consultation         and     agreement      with    the    Internet

service    providers.        The    ones    on   whose   behalf    you

purport to be speaking are, in fact, the people who

have agreed fully to these amendments and who are

supporting      this     very    Bill.     Thank   you   very    much.

[Applause.]



Mr S PILLAY: Thank you, Deputy Chair. On Sunday I

spoke     at    a    meeting       in    Johannesburg     that    was

attended       by   over     550    religious      leaders,      human

rights activists from the Hindu, Muslim, Christian,

spiritualist and atheist communities. One of the

issues raised was legislation and its enforcement,

and in terms of this Bill in particular. It had

overwhelming support from the people who attended

that meeting. The New NP listens to what people

have to say and doesn't come here and yap like a

little pup. We support this important and essential

Bill.



As much has been said about the content, I shall

concentrate         on     its     implementation.       There     are

several challenges that are still in the way of
19 February 2004                                                               Page 179 of 200


enforcing this piece of legislation. We therefore

call    upon       the      Ministers       of     Safety          and    Security,

Justice and Constitutional Development, and Public

Service      and       Administration             to     take       the      required

action to ensure that this piece of legislation is

enforced. We believe that they will do so, moreover

after the allocations that were announced by the

Minister of Finance.



If     you        make        a     commitment           to        enforce         this

legislation, we accept that you will do so because

you    are     the         Government        and       it     is    your       direct

responsibility.



At    the    meeting          we    also    discussed            the     commitment

advertised by the DA, namely that if one person

votes       for       them,       they     will    put        150      000     police

personnel on the streets, supposedly to implement

such    legislation.               It     was     made        clear       that      all

empirical evidence shows that the DA will not be

the    government            of     our     country         after        the      April

elections         -    and        they    are     fully       aware       of      that.

Therefore they will not be able to give effect to

the    claim.         As    the     DA    will     not      be     able      to   give
19 February 2004                                                  Page 180 of 200


effect to the claim, it therefore means that it is

a misleading advertisement. That advertisement was

rejected       with    the      contempt      that    it    so    rightly

deserves.



The provisions of this Bill are important and they

affect the lives of our children and ourselves. We

cannot stand by and be silent when a party makes a

commitment that it knows it shall not be able to

fulfil. The meeting took a decision that the matter

will be reported to the relevant authorities with

the request that the particular advertisement be

withdrawn.



It is the Government that will allocate personnel

and    other    resources         to   implement       this      piece   of

legislation.         Let   us     be   absolutely      clear      on    that

point.       If       all         political          parties,          civic

organisations and responsible leaders work together

to    implement       this      legislation,       those    wishing       to

violate this law will find it very difficult to do

so.   This     has    to     be   done   in    a     very   responsible

manner by everyone.
19 February 2004                                               Page 181 of 200


The plight of crime victims and the enforcement of

legislation    should     not    be     used      in    the   hope   of

gaining a few votes for those that have tried. They

will soon learn that the electorate will not be

confused or misled by such a wild and exaggerated

advertisement.



In conclusion: The people at that meeting gave full

support for the role that the New NP is playing,

together with the Government, in combating crime,

in particular child pornography.



Ms   C   DUDLEY:   Deputy      Chair,    child     pornography       is

universally condemned for good reason. It strikes

at   the   dignity   of     children.        It    is    harmful     to

children who are used in these productions, and it

is potentially harmful because of the attitude to

child sex that it fosters and the use of it in

grooming    children      to    engage       in   sexual      conduct.

These are the words of Deputy Chief Judge Langa in

2003, when the Constitutional Court ruled that the

possession    and    production         of     child     pornography

should stay illegal.
19 February 2004                                                Page 182 of 200


The    Films    and    Publications          Amendment      Bill    makes

provision for the prohibition of child pornography

and a more effective investigation and prosecution

of    child    pornography         offenders.      These     objectives

are commendable and its provisions are welcomed by

the ACDP. However, the Bill does not go far enough

as adult pornography is still legal and defended in

the name of free speech.



Children are vulnerable and easily become victims

of those who have been aroused by adult pornography

and not just child pornography. Of course the ADCP

is not surprised that the liberal DA opposes any

efforts to effectively clamp down on pornography.

[Applause.]



In 1996 the Films and Publications Act legalised

pornography      in    South       Africa    for     the   first    time.

According      to     the    South    African      Police     Services'

Child   Protection          Unit    this    made     it    possible    for

child abusers, rapists and pedophiles to obtain all

the    material     they      needed.       Statistics,      they     say,

tells    the    story       of   South      Africa    Police    records

showing that child rape increased by over 400%. The
19 February 2004                                                         Page 183 of 200


police further noted that in research with child

sexual offenders, it was revealed that all had used

pornography.



Every 26 seconds a woman is raped in South Africa,

often by a man known to her and increasingly under

excessively        violent          circumstances;        and       every    24

minutes there is a rape or attempted rape of a

child. Shockingly, child-on-child rape is on the

increase in South Africa and the age of rapists is

declining.      This          is     not    surprising,           given     the

circulation         of        pornographic        magazines          in     our

schools,      not        of    child       pornography,           but     adult

pornography.



According     to    the       police       at   the    Mitchell's         Plain

Child Protection Unit the bizarre ideas employed by

child-on-child           rapists       are      likely    gleaned          from

pornographic material, which is also used by gangs

to lure children from school playgrounds. I have a

lot   more    to    say,       but    unfortunately           I    have    been

denied   my    other          two    minutes.         Thank       you.    [Time

expired.]
19 February 2004                                                   Page 184 of 200


Mr W M SKHOSANA: Thank you, Chairperson, Ministers,

and hon members. Chairperson, the Bill before the

House today, which is the Films and Publications

Bill, deals with the specific sections and clauses

pertaining        to    child     pornography.           It   is   another

example      of     the      fact      that    the        South    African

Constitution is a living document that impacts on

and improves the quality of life of all our people.



The Bill of Rights as contained in our Constitution

guarantees, among others, the right to privacy, the

right to dignity and prohibits determination based

on sex, gender and social orientation.



The   Bill        seeks      to   do    that        in    totality.     The

principal Act did not include the description of

child pornography in its totality, or the inclusion

of other parts of the body, which may be used for

pornographic purposes. As a result, the amendment

is necessary as it can deal with specifics.



To show that the Government is serious about child

pornography,           the   Government        takes       note    of   the

development         worldwide          of     the        technology     and
19 February 2004                                                Page 185 of 200


complexity that goes with it. Times are changing

every day.



As a country and as a Government, we are determined

to build and a give meaning to our Constitution.

The    amendment      of     the    principal       Act     shows   the

determination of the ANC-led Government to become

involved in the national priority task of laying

the    foundation          for     building     a        coherent   and

substainable society.



Taking    the    cue       from     the    Minister        of   Finance

yesterday in his Budget Review and allocating more

money to the Department of Education because of the

need of computer literacy for our students, this

Bill     seeks   to        take    everybody        on     board.   Big

businesses were consulted and all stakeholders were

consulted. We should take note of the fact that our

children will be more exposed to computers. It is

necessary for school governing bodies and everybody

else in society to do so. As a result, possession,

according to the Bill, will go further to include

downloading      material          on     computers        which    our

children are using on daily basis.
19 February 2004                                                   Page 186 of 200


Regarding      Internet           service      providers,    within       its

jurisdiction         in      so   far    as    child   pornography        is

concerned, it is therefore necessary to include the

definition         of     "Internet       address"     and     "Internet

service provider" in the Act. We are living in a

changing world.



There    is    a     relationship           between    children         whose

images appear in child pornography and those who

have gone missing through child trafficking. This

Bill    is    part      of    the    process      to   bring    about      a

legislative         framework           that     ensures     the    total

protection of children against any form of abuse,

be it sexual, violent, trafficking or otherwise, is

in place.



As a result we are looking with interest at the

development        surrounding          the     finalisation       of    the

legislation that deals with human trafficking.



Due to the nature of the problems involved, which

include the fact that this is a cross-border crime,

it has taken a long time to finalise the policy in

this regard. The ANC Government is making a call to
19 February 2004                                              Page 187 of 200


all to join the ANC-led Government in the people's

contract      to      build      the   nation.          The        moral

degeneration is one aspect that is to be used, and

perhaps    we      need   to    revisit    the     notion      of     a

collective upbringing of the child: Go back to the

basics of promoting the notion of your child is my

child, my child is your child.



Surely the hon member Walters might not understand

what do we mean by this. Hon Walters, you have been

all    over     the   show,     accusing      particularly           the

chairperson      of    the     portfolio   committee          of     not

wanting to bring the Bill before the committee. Now

the Bill is before this House today and now you are

the one who is opposing the Bill. You have attended

all   those     public    hearings     which     included          those

other parastatals you have made mention of. We did

not find any problems with those inputs, and they

ultimately agreed with us that there is a need to

have this kind of amendment.



It    is   important      to    note   that      this    world       is

changing. We are part of the global world which is

constantly changing. Mr Walters tries to compare
19 February 2004                                                    Page 188 of 200


the    new    South      Africa    with       the       South    Africa    of

yesterday. It was an apartheid state, it had its

roles, it had its policies, and it had its aims. We

want to be part of the global world and then we

want to ensure that each and every citizen, our

children      in    particular,         are   safe       by     introducing

this Bill. I thank you.



The    MINISTER     OF     HOME   AFFAIRS:          I    was    brought    up

differently from you. I can never be like you. Hon

Deputy       Chairperson,         hon     Deputy          Minister,       hon

members, I would like to make just one thing very

clear. It is a fact that this is indeed my Bill. I

brought it to this House because it is my Bill and

my party supported this Bill. I am very grateful

that the Minister of Safety and Security is here.

When    he    was     my   Deputy       Minister,         he    felt   very

passionately about this matter to the extent - I

think the Minister of Public Service would bear me

out here - that he would have wanted us to have a

presentation on the kind of harm that is done to

children by pornography.
19 February 2004                                       Page 189 of 200


I could not have brought the Bill here if I was

opposed to it myself. However, I have every right

to point out, as you saw, that there are certain

people who made the presentations because they feel

differently about it, but for the chairperson of

the portfolio committee to come here and say that I

was unhappy myself, I don't know what that means.

How he can say that I am unhappy, especially since

I brought the Bill before the House? There are many

Bills    that   have   been   passed   in   this    House,   and

which have been taken to the Constitutional Court

and were squashed.



If   I   just   warned   members   that     there    was     that

possibility, it doesn't mean that I am opposed to

the Bill. If I felt so strongly, I could even have

discussed it with the Deputy Minister.



If you mother brought you up like that, it is just

too bad. [Interjections.] Yes, you have no manners

and that is your parents' fault. [Interjections.] I

just want to make it very clear that you cannot

give to me what you do not have. If you don't have

something between your ears, you can't give it to
19 February 2004                            Page 190 of 200


me. I would also like to say that there is also

wisdom in the old expression that we cannot teach

an old woman to suck an egg. [Applause.]



Debate concluded.



Bill read a second time (DA dissenting).



CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT

   OF EXCLUSION OF LAND FROM AUGRABIES WATERFALL

                    NATIONAL PARK



There was no debate.



Exclusion of Land from Augrabies Waterfall National

Park approved.



 CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON

          FINANCE - STUDY TOUR TO THE UK



There was no debate.



The Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved:

That the report be noted.
19 February 2004                            Page 191 of 200


Motion agreed to.



Report accordingly noted.



 CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON

PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT - UN REPORT ON 19TH

    SESSION OF GOVERNING COUNCIL OF UN HABITAT



There was no debate.



The Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved:

That the report be noted.



Motion agreed to.



Report accordingly noted.



The House adjourned at 17:36.

                       __________



   ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS



ANNOUNCEMENTS
19 February 2004                                    Page 192 of 200

National Assembly



1.   Messages from National Council of Provinces to

     National Assembly in respect of Bills passed by

     Council and transmitted to Assembly:



     (1) Bill, as amended, passed by Council on 19

         February      2004       and   transmitted      for

         consideration of Council's amendments:



         (i) National Gambling Bill [B 48D - 2003]

               (National Assembly - sec 76)



         The amended Bill has been referred to the

         Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry

         for   a   report   and   recommendations   on   the

         Council's amendments.



TABLINGS



National Assembly



1.   The Speaker
19 February 2004                                           Page 193 of 200


   Eleventh   Report    of    the    Working      Group    on     the

   African Union (AU):



   Following on its Tenth Report, adopted by the

   House on 26 November 2003, the Working Group

   would like to report as follows:



   (1) Submission of names of PAP Members to AU

       Commission



       The    Working    Group       in    its    Tenth        Report

       recommended that 5 Members                be elected to

       represent     Parliament       in    the    Pan     African

       Parliament (PAP), in terms of Article 4(2)

       of the Protocol which provides that each

       Member State shall be represented in the

       Pan         African          Parliament            by        5

       Parliamentarians,        at    least       one     of     whom

       shall be a woman.



       On 26 November 2003, the following Members

       were elected:         Dr F N Ginwala, Ms M A A

       Njobe, Mr M J Mahlangu, Dr B L Geldenhuys
19 February 2004                                          Page 194 of 200

       and Prof H Ngubane and the names have been

       submitted to the AU Commission.



       The AU Commission has indicated that it has

       now received the names of the Members from

       23 Parliaments. As some had not provided

       all   the    required     information       (gender    and

       political affiliation), the Commission will

       be     sending        a     further        communication

       requesting         standardised         formats        for

       required        information,           including       the

       language       preference      of   each    Member     and

       whether each Member will take an oath or

       make a solemn declaration.



   (2) Arrangements for the Inaugural Session and

       the First Session



       (a) Date and programme



             The date for the Inaugural Session has

             been   set   as     18   March    2004   in    Addis

             Ababa.    The   Inaugural     Session     will    be

             preceded by regional meetings which are
19 February 2004                                              Page 195 of 200


           scheduled        for        17     March        2004     and

           followed by the First Session of the

           PAP     from   19      to    20     March       2004.    The

           Steering Committee at its meeting held

           on 13 and 14 February 2004 adopted a

           draft     programme           for       the      Inaugural

           Session        for        consideration           by     the

           Chairperson          of     the     AU,    President       J

           Chissano.      It     also       agreed     a    programme

           for adoption by the First Session of

           the PAP.



       (b) Oath of Office



            The Steering Committee has agreed the

           Oath     of    Office        or     Affirmation          for

           Members and for Presiding Officers, in

           each of the 4 official languages of the

           AU.



       (c) Observers



           In    addition       to     the     5     Members,      each

           Member Parliament may send 3 observers
19 February 2004                                           Page 196 of 200


             to    attend     the   Inaugural       Session.   The

             Speaker will submit names of observers

             to the Chief Whips.



       (d) Secondment of Staff



             The     Commission       will     be    writing   to

             Members of the Steering Committee and

             the African Foreign Missions in Addis

             Ababa to request them to second staff.



   (3) Rules for the Inaugural Session



       Article 11 (8) of the Protocol empowers the

       PAP to adopt its Rules of Procedure.



       The   Steering       Committee    has    adopted     Draft

       Rules      for   the    PAP.   These    Rules    will   be

       considered        and     adopted       at    the    First

       Session.



   (4) Nomination and election of the President of

       the PAP
19 February 2004                                                       Page 197 of 200


       In    terms   of     the    Article            12    (2)        of   the

       Protocol,      the        PAP        will       at        its    first

       sitting, elect from among its Members and

       in accordance with its Rules of Procedure,

       a     President           and        4      Vice          Presidents

       representing          the        regions             of         Africa.

       According to the Protocol, the election of

       the President will take place during the

       Inaugural Session and be presided over by

       the     Chairperson             of       the        AU.     National

       Parliaments          may         nominate             candidates.

       Regional      consultations               will       be     held      to

       nominate a candidate from the region from

       amongst       the     nominations               from        National

       Parliaments. The election will be by secret

       ballot of all Members.



   (5) Nomination          and     election            of        the        Vice

       Presidents



       The Draft Rules provide that the region from

       which the President comes is excluded from

       the ballot for Vice Presidents. Each of the

       4     remaining      regions             will       nominate          two
19 February 2004                                              Page 198 of 200


       candidates per region, one of whom must be

       a woman.



       Each ballot paper will have two sections:

       Section         1        for     the     nominated      women

       candidates          exclusively        and   Section    2    for

       all candidates. In Section 1 of the ballot,

       the names of the women candidates will be

       listed      in      alphabetical         order   indicating

       their respective regions.



       Each delegate must vote for one woman on

       Section     1       of     the    ballot     paper.    Ballot

       papers which do not indicate a valid vote

       on   Section        1     will   be    disqualified.        Each

       delegate may also vote for one candidate

       from each of the regions on Section 2 of

       the ballot paper. Section 2 will be counted

       first. Should there be no woman candidate

       amongst the top 4 votes, the woman with the

       highest vote from Section 1 of the ballot

       paper will replace the candidate from the

       corresponding region in Section 2 of the

       ballot.
19 February 2004                                             Page 199 of 200


       Section     1    of     the       ballot   will   only       be

       considered if no women candidates are voted

       as one of the Vice Presidents in Section 2

       of   the    ballot.         The    election    will    be   by

       simple      majority        of     Members     present      and

       voting.



   (6) Rules of Debate



       A minimum set of Rules of Debate has also

       been agreed to.



   (7) Establishment of committees



       Article 12(13) of the Protocol provides that

       the PAP may establish such committees, as

       it deems fit, for the proper discharge of

       its functions and in accordance with its

       Rules of Procedure.



       According       to    the    Draft    Rules,    the   Bureau

       will constitute the Business Committee of

       the PAP. At its first session, the PAP will

       establish the following ad hoc Committees:
19 February 2004                                Page 200 of 200


       (a) Rules Committee

       (b) Budget Committee

       (c) Credentials Committee



       These ad hoc Committees will be composed of

       3 representatives per region and will be

       appointed by the House.



   (8) Reporting Mechanisms



       The Working Group has previously highlighted

       the need for Parliament to consider how the

       five Members of the PAP will report.



       The Working Group recommends:



       That   the   next   Parliament   prioritises   the

       establishment of a committee to process and

       deal with issues emanating from the African

       Union.



   Report to be considered.

				
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