NATIONAL OCEANIC AND ATMOSPHERIC ADMINISTRATION

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       NATIONAL OCEANIC AND ATMOSPHERIC ADMINISTRATION

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                 MARINE FISHERIES ADVISORY COMMITTEE

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                          COMMITTEE MEETING

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                                Wednesday
                              June 6, 2007

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             The committee convened at 1:30 p.m. in the
Springwood Room of the Washington Court Hotel, 525 New
Jersey   Avenue,   Washington,   D.C.  20001,   Anthony
DiLernia, acting Chairman, presiding.

PRESENT:

Dr. William Hogarth   Vice Chairman
Tom Billy             Member
Laurel Bryant         Consultant
Randy Cates           Member
John Connelly         Member
Bill Dewey            Member
Anthony DiLernia      NOAA
Randy Fisher          Consultant
Robert Fletcher       Member
John Forster          Member
Catherine Foy         Member
Jim Gilmore           Member
Mark Holliday         NOAA
Steve Joner           Member
Rob Kramer            Member
Peter Leipzig         Member
Dr. Steve Murawski    NOAA
Mary Beth Nickell-Tooley, Member
John O'Shea           Consultant
Tom Raftican          Member
Sam Rauch             NOAA
Ralph Rayburn         Member
Eric Schwaab          Member
Larry Simpson         Consultant

                                   AGENDA

                            NEAL R. GROSS
                        COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
                            1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433              WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701    www.nealrgross.com
                                                                             2

      Call to order.....................................3

      RecFish Report....................................4

      MSA Report.......................................24

      Aquaculture Report...............................27

      Fish Watch Report................................37

      20/20 Report.....................................73

      Future meetings.................................110

      New business....................................117

      Adjournment.....................................119




1                    P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

                         NEAL R. GROSS
                     COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
                         1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
    (202) 234-4433       WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701    www.nealrgross.com
                                                                                               3
1                                                                        (1:23 P.M.)

2                           CAPT. DILERNIA: Okay, why don't we begin?

3      Before we get to the business of today, on a personal

4    note, we received news this morning that the reason

5    one       of     our    members,     Mr.     Roberts,         is   not    here       is

6    because          his    mother     died     Monday        morning    or     Sunday

7    evening, we're not sure.                      In any event I think it

8    would be nice if we sent flowers or a plant or made a

9    donation in the name of Ken Roberts' mom and I've

10   asked Ralph if he could coordinate so if maybe we

11   could all chip in five bucks or something like that

12   and we'll send something for the Roberts family on

13   behalf of the committee.                      And our condolences.                   We

14   also already e-mailed our condolences to the family

15   and I know you all -- when my folks died a couple

16   years ago -- it was so nice to get something from you

17   all to know that you were all thinking about us and

18   our family and I'm sure it will be appreciated.                                      So

19   when you get a chance, during the break, whatever,

20   please see Ralph and five bucks a head will be plenty

21   enough.

22                          Thank you.      As far as today's business is

23   concerned, we have a number of reports that we'll be

24   taking and the order that I plan on taking them in

25   will be RecFish, MSA, Aquaculture, Fish Watch, and

                                      NEAL R. GROSS
                                COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
                                    1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
     (202) 234-4433                 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701           www.nealrgross.com
                                                                                     4
1    then we have 20/20 but we also have to decide our

2    meeting locations, future meeting locations and times

3    and we may do that before 20/20 because that may drive

4    some of the additional 20/20 work.

5                      So, having said that, the first committee

6    report is on RecFish and Captain Fletcher?                 You've got

7    the floor.

8                      MR. FLETCHER: We had what I thought was a

9    very productive morning discussing the status of the

10   various elements of the RecFish improvement program -

11   - Marine Recreational Improvement Program, I think is

12   what it's going by.           If you look in your tab twelve,

13   there's a copy of John Boreman's presentation that he

14   provided this morning as well as -- he provided this

15   to the Gulf Council, and I was really pleased that

16   John was able to enlist the support of Bobbie Walker,

17   who with Bob Zales, had been one of the critics of

18   this process because they weren't involved and now

19   Bobbie Walker is involved.                She's going to be on one

20   of the working groups.

21                     There's a proposed conference or workshop

22     scheduled for sometime in late July.                   The plan is

23   moving forward.       The operations team under Rob Andrews

24   has met.         They will be meeting again.             They will be

25   developing products.            They will be starting to name

                               NEAL R. GROSS
                           COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
                               1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
     (202) 234-4433            WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701      www.nealrgross.com
                                                                                                     5
1    members to these working groups that are identified on

2    the second page of the handout under the tab twelve.

3    The working groups are going to be pulling together a

4    lot of the real key elements that will need to be

5    addressed          as    we      create        a    survey        that     will        have

6    credibility             and       support          from          the     recreational

7    community.

8                        I was really pleased that John Boreman had

9    gotten the message that if there isn't the inclusion

10   at all levels possible of constituent in-put, that

11   there may be a rejection and so he has really taken

12   that         message    and      has      worked       it    through       his       whole

13   process.           And I'm really pleased with that.                              It's a

14   lot that they're going to have to do that the science

15   and technology, working with the various members of

16   the         operations         team       and      the      executive         steering

17   committee are going to have to pull together.                                   We have

18   a very tight deadline.

19                       But I think working through the process

20   with in-put from all the regional councils and getting

21   the        MAFAC    recreational            fisheries            working    group          to

22   provide access to the key players that are in the

23   coastal states, will maximize the opportunity and I

24   think so far, so good.                   There's no guarantees.

25                       One        interesting            thing        that's       already

                                       NEAL R. GROSS
                                   COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
                                       1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
     (202) 234-4433                    WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701              www.nealrgross.com
                                                                                                            6
1    started is they're doing a pilot in the Gulf, dual

2    frame pilot to see how the data's coming in, see if it

3    looks like it's a better product and they've already

4    gotten the results of the first wave, which is March

5    and April was the first wave they were able to include

6    in this pilot.                       And by the end of the year there

7    should be some better information about the results of

8    that.

9                                So    things      are     already         out    there          being

10   worked on.                   One of the elements of it was that key

11   council               members       in    the       recreational           community            are

12   going            to    be        enlisted      to    try      to      form   an      advisory

13   committee               of       recreational         anglers         in     each      of       the

14   councils               --    so     that      they      can     understand           and        get

15   educated about the process and then talk to their

16   constituencies.                    It's all about the credibility of the

17   system.               It hasn't been there.                 It's got to be brought

18   in and I think they've really laid out a good process.

19                               Part and parcel of this as you know is the

20     angler registry.                    And there are a lot of states that

21   are going to need to do work to try to overcome some

22   of the areas where they're not in compliance.                                                 Some

23   states are in much better shape than others.                                                    And

24   John's comment was he believes that working with them,

25   he will be able to get them into compliance, hopefully

                                              NEAL R. GROSS
                                        COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
                                            1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
     (202) 234-4433                         WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701                www.nealrgross.com
                                                                                                     7
1      in the time frame we have.

2                          They've already sent out a letter to state

3    directors,           sharing     with      them      what       NMFS      thinks         the

4    minimum criteria might need to be for an exemption

5    from a federal registry program going into that state.

6      And we're hopeful that the states will take this

7    seriously, understand that it is the law now, and

8    they're going to need to try to find ways to get into

9    compliance.

10                         Currently       no     program           --    this       was        an

11   interesting statement that John made -- currently no

12   state            program    meets      the     minimum          criteria          to       be

13   exempted from the registry language in the Magnuson

14   reauthorization.               But there's a lot of ways, other

15   than legislative fixes, that those problems can be

16   resolved.            So working with the states on an ongoing

17   basis, John is hopeful that in the end there will be

18   compliance.

19                         NMFS has created what they call a registry

20   group and it's headed by a very bright gentleman by

21   the name of Gordon Colvin, who until recently was the

22   Director of Natural Resources.

23                         CAPT. DILERNIA: He was the Director of

24   Marine Resources for the state of New York.

25                         MR.   FLETCHER:         I     met        him   at     the        NOAA

                                     NEAL R. GROSS
                                 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
                                     1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
     (202) 234-4433                  WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701                www.nealrgross.com
                                                                                                 8
1    Fisheries State Directors meeting a couple of months

2    ago -- late April or early May -- and he's come on

3    board now and I think he'll do a tremendous amount of

4    good, to be able to work with those state directors

5    and try to get them into compliance.

6                          As I mentioned earlier, probably the most

7    critical piece of this process is going to be direct,

8    repeated,             ongoing        public         involvement        with          the

9    industry.             And I think that the states working with

10   the councils and the commissions can get all those key

11   players          to    come     to     the      table      and    understand         the

12   process and understand how important it is that they

13   get on board.

14                         And Forbes Darby is going to be critical

15   because           he's        going        to       be      involved      in         the

16   communications and education group.                              He's already got

17   a great background with ASA that allows him to reach

18   out to a lot of people.                      What we asked of him is that

19   he develop some kind of streamlined message, a couple

20   of pages, about this process.                            And then all of us on

21   the recreational fisheries working group will take

22   that message and then modify it so that it's coming

23   from us and then go out to the people we work with and

24   say: this is a process that's going to make the data

25   more user-friendly, make it more credible, make it

                                       NEAL R. GROSS
                                   COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
                                       1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
     (202) 234-4433                    WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701          www.nealrgross.com
                                                                                                  9
1    more accurate, more timely, and we're looking for you

2    to       get     involved       if     you     have       any    concerns,            any

3    confusion.            We want you to be involved.                           Kind of

4    embracing this early on and continuously, hopefully

5    we'll minimize the areas of concern, although we know

6    there will be those out there in your area.

7                          Rob Kramer, who is hugely important to

8    this process with all of his background and contacts,

9    indicated           there's        a     --      in     Florida      there's                 a

10   conservation captain's program.                        To me it sounded like

11   a great way to get all the for hire people involved

12   because as incentive, if they come on board and agree

13   to provide certain information, then the state will

14   advertise for them -- about who they are, where they

15   are, and what they fish for.

16                         So these are some of the things that are

17   out there that MAFAC and the recreational fisheries

18   working group can bring to the table and also go out

19   and talk to those kinds of groups.                             So I think we're

20   all        headed      in   a     good       direction.           The      public's

21   confidence in the process is obviously previously been

22   missing.            But it's different regionally and so we

23   continue         to    hammer        the      importance        of   having           the

24   message vary regionally because there's going to be

25   differences.            For example, night fishing is huge in

                                     NEAL R. GROSS
                                 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
                                     1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
     (202) 234-4433                  WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701             www.nealrgross.com
                                                                                   10
1    certain areas and not in others.

2                       And then John had one slide that I thought

3    really encapsulated a lot of this and it's in this

4    package.          His question was why do we need to register

5    anglers?          And the answer is because we only want to

6    talk to people who fish.                 And that talking to people

7    who fish to try to gather data on what's being caught

8    and       who's    fishing,    how     much     they're    fishing,        just

9    makes sense.         It's intuitively            common sense.

10                      And it's one of the things that drove me

11   crazy for years          when I heard about that random digit

12   dialing program.          This is going to overcome a lot of

13   that and I think that the registry -- hopefully a lot

14   of the states will be able to modify what they do and

15   meet the minimum criteria.                    And I think in the end

16   most of them will.

17                      The process is moving forward.                The work

18   groups are being created by John and Rob Andrews and

19   there will be a get-together, perhaps in late July,

20   where these groups will begin to work on creating a

21   product.          And so our next meeting should be really

22   enlightening in terms of where we are, because we have

23   to be a long ways down that road.

24                      We're right now shooting for June of `08

25   to have a tentative draft, final package that will be

                                   NEAL R. GROSS
                             COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
                                 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
     (202) 234-4433              WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701        www.nealrgross.com
                                                                                           11
1    going out for public comment and then be ready for a

2    bill to adopt by the first of January of 2009.                                  So we

3    don't have a lot of time left.

4                      I was pleased to -- one of the big things

5    and Randy Fisher really brought it home -- he said we

6    have to set ourselves up for success, not failure.

7    And the sure way to fail is not to have the funds

8    available to do the kind of work that needs to be done

9    to gather this information.                   It was -- clearly it's

10   going to take more money.                   And John indicated that

11   half of the money allocated this year for Magnuson Act

12   reauthorization        is     going      toward           this    recreational

13   daily improvement in the registry program.

14                     MR. CONNELLY: In the President's budget

15   for next year.

16                     MR. FLETCHER: For next year.                    And then in

17   `09 there is going to be an emphasis on this whole

18   process.         So   we're     hopeful        that        some       significant

19   dollars will be available there but I think all of us

20   are concerned that once we develop this project, if

21   there's not the funds to implement it then we're no

22   better off than we were before we started the process.

23     And I know you understand that.

24                     So that was the kind of the wrap-up for

25   the        meeting.    We're       going       to    have        an     executive

                                 NEAL R. GROSS
                            COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
                                1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
     (202) 234-4433             WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701                 www.nealrgross.com
                                                                                            12
1    steering committee conference call tomorrow.                               And then

2    in the months to come, get to do the hard work of

3    pulling together this product.

4                           CAPT. DILERNIA: Thank you for your report.

5      Dr. Hogarth?

6                           DR. HOGARTH: We're lucky that John Boreman

7    decided not to retire and take over this project.                                       He

8    wanted to just retire and we convinced him not to

9    because this is one of the biggest issues we have.

10   There            is   absolutely    no     faith      in       that   recreational

11   data.            And the biggest concern I have is that when we

12   get through this, to get the money we're going to have

13   to have people not taking pot shots at it.                                     So the

14   outreach to get everybody on board is going to be key.

15     If we got a group in Texas or a group in Virginia or

16   a group in somewhere, that's just going to take shots

17   at it, then it's going to be                      more difficult.

18                          And it is going to cost.                       One of the

19   problems we're having right now with the old Magnuson

20   reauthorization is a lot of people think that, well

21   it's reauthorizing -- that's it.                               The work is ahead

22   of us in the reauthorization.                          It's costly.            It's a

23   very costly reauthorization.                        The people have seemed

24   to forgotten that.                 It's just -- we reauthorize it.

25   It's done.             Move on.     And it's not true.

                                     NEAL R. GROSS
                                 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
                                     1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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                                                                                           13
1                         I think the group has done a good job of

2    putting together -- we've got good teams.                             We're lucky

3    that Gordon Colvin wanted to retire and come with us

4    and John is talking to another state director                               that's,

5    will be active for one of these groups.                              We're trying

6    to reach out to the states because we feel like it's

7    with the registry, a lot of the reasons                              we need the

8    states.           We need that and we need the commissions and

9    the councils.           And the commissions have already done a

10   lot       in     straightening         out    some      of     the   recreational

11   stuff.           We just need to continue to build on that.                            We

12   need MAFAC's involvement.                     We can't let it drop.                    We

13   can't let it lose any momentum and we've got to keep

14   the outreach.              The outreach is just one thing -- is

15   just critical because nobody believes today so if we

16   don't get the buy in, then we've got some problems.

17   So thanks to everybody.

18                        CAPT. DILERNIA: Questions for Bob -- I

19   have         a   couple,     but      I'll    hold      off    until     committee

20   members.           Questions for Bob Fletcher?                   None?      Well, I

21   have two for you, Bob.

22                        First       of      all,       Bob,        is    there          any

23   discussion, and I don't expect them to do it now

24   because they have a lot more to do in getting this up

25   and running, but has there been any discussion about

                                     NEAL R. GROSS
                                 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
                                     1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
     (202) 234-4433                  WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701            www.nealrgross.com
                                                                                                    14
1    trying            to    in    a     sense       recalibrate          past        landings.

2    Because one of the, I think, goals of this is to try

3    to more accurately understand the landings that are

4    the fish -- well, I guess we'll say mortality that's

5    affected by the recreational community.                                  Is there, has

6    there been any talk about doing a retrospective and

7    going            back   and       looking        at    landings          from      previous

8    years, once this has been up and running for a couple

9    of years and possibly recalibrate or re-understand the

10   behavior of the recreational community in the previous

11   years?

12                           MR. FLETCHER: Well, let me just put it

13   this way -- on the west coast, we've been under a new

14   survey system for about four years now and for several

15   of those years we've been doing dual surveys.                                             MRFSS

16   has continued to work while the new system has been up

17   and running -- an attempt to address exactly the point

18   you       raised.            I    don't      know, Randy            --    is he here?

19   Randy, do you have any thoughts on if that has been

20   accomplished?

21                           MR.       FISHER:         Well       they've        looked              --

22   basically they've tried to figure out whether the new

23   system would come up with the same number as the old

24   system did.                  And the answer really is no and the

25   reason we can't really compare them in many cases is

                                          NEAL R. GROSS
                                      COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
                                          1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
     (202) 234-4433                       WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701                www.nealrgross.com
                                                                                          15
1    because management has changed so much.                          We've gone to

2    a basically different management scheme on the West

3    Coast in a number of the fisheries, and as a result of

4    that, it would be very hard to go back and try and

5    compare oranges and oranges.                     So in some instances you

6    can, but overall we figured out that you really can't

7    do it, at least in the West Coast.                               And the main

8    reason is the changes in management over that period

9    of months.

10                        CAPT. DILERNIA: And the steering committee

11   hasn't had any discussions about any of that?

12                        MR. FLETCHER: No.

13                        CAPT. DILERNIA: Okay.               Pete?

14                        MR. LEIPZIG: Randy, I can appreciate going

15   back and doing the retrospective that Tony was looking

16   for,         but    when   Bob     said      there       was    parallel          data

17   collection for four years, were they producing the

18   same answer during the four year period or different?

19                        MR.   FISHER:        Fairly        close    to    the        same

20   number.            If you look at certain waves, for instance,

21   some of them will be the same and some of them are

22   different.

23                        MR. LEIPZIG: You don't know which one is

24   right.

25                        MR. FISHER: Right, that's exactly right.

                                    NEAL R. GROSS
                                COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
                                    1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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                                                                                               16
1                            MR. FLETCHER: Our attitude is recreational

2    anglers is the new system, is better and results in a

3    lower            number       of   catch       than      the      MRF     system         was

4    projecting.               So we thought that what we were looking

5    at made more logic.                        It was more common sense and

6    closer to what we thought might be what our harvest

7    impact was.

8                            CAPT. DILERNIA: My second question -- a

9    little bit different -- I guess I'll rely on the three

10   commission directors here to possibly answer first.

11   It's             my    understanding           that       all      coastal        states

12   basically              have    a    recreational            license       except         for

13   basically those states in the northeast.                                        Is that

14   correct?              For the northeast regions and Hawaii.                          Okay.

15     The federal registry is going to be designed to be

16   implemented,              should       a    state       not       enact    their         own

17   angling registry system, is that correct?                                 Okay.

18                           Now, your implementation date is January

19   of      `09,          which    happens      to     come      right      after     local,

20   state, and federal elections in November of `08.                                         And

21   I'm just anticipating that that federal registry might

22   be necessary because I could see, I could envision

23   opponents of the registry on the state level getting

24   to local legislators during an election cycle.                                      And I

25   could see some of those because I would believe that

                                        NEAL R. GROSS
                                    COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
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                                                                                              17
1    it       would      be     required        as      an     act     of   the          state

2    legislature          and     an     act      of     the        governor      to       have

3    registries, angler registries in those states in the

4    northeast.

5                        And     I     could      see     this        program       getting

6    bogged down a little bit, I guess you'll say, in local

7    politics as some folks advocate a state registry in

8    the northeast and other individuals who in the state

9    legislature may have to support it, are running for

10   re-election.             It's not really all that popular in the

11   northeast.           So I could see it -- and by the way, my

12   career           started     in     fisheries           management          in        1980

13   opposing the saltwater fishing license in New York

14   state - - that was 1980.                      That was my first thing I

15   was ever asked to do by industry.                         And now I think I'm

16   probably the biggest supporter of a saltwater license

17   in New York state, many years later.                              I'm absolutely

18   convinced it's necessary.

19                       But there is still significant amount of

20   resistance and I could see, possibly in the northeast,

21   the state systems not being online for the January `09

22     start-up date, so I would strongly suggest that the

23   federal process be really well in place and planned

24   because you might have to go that route in some of

25   those states in the northeast, having come from there.

                                       NEAL R. GROSS
                                 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
                                     1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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                                                                                                 18
1      Mr. Kramer?

2                            MR.     KRAMER:       Tony,       I       think     the        whole

3    analogy between the saltwater license and what's going

4    on here            are very relative.               If I'm an angler in one

5    of those states, you could theoretically look at it as

6    such         that,      do    I    want     to     play       a     larger      part         in

7    determining how I'm managed and how I'm counted and

8    how fish are counted in my fishery?                               Or do I just want

9    to fall back to the federal registry thing?                                   So I see,

10   we talked about this earlier, as being a potential

11   carrot            for    some       of    the       other         states       to        more

12   aggressively pursue a state remedy for this as opposed

13   to a federal remedy for this.                        That's how I'm going to

14   sell it from a recreational angling constituent group,

15   is that you've got an opportunity to drive the bus or

16   ride on the bus.                  You pick.

17                           CAPT. DILERNIA: I couldn't agree with you

18   more.            I support that, I support it completely, but I

19   also know that, coming from the northeast it's an

20   emotional issue.                  Should we separate the rationale --

21   the rationale for it makes perfect sense and it's

22   obvious,              it's      logical,         it's         the     way        to        go.

23   Unfortunately there's a certain amount of emotion that

24   also drives this and I would be very disappointed

25   should           my     state      not    adopt       recreational            saltwater

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1    fishing license in time for this to be implemented.

2    All I'm just saying is, I'm cautioning the feds that

3    sit here, that just make sure everything's in place

4    because           I     could       see     it     getting         stuck             in    local

5    politics.             Just getting ugly in local politics.

6                            MR. FLETCHER: Let John comment.                              John, how

7    do       you      foresee        the       implementation               of       a        federal

8    registry in the absence of any support from the state?

9      You don't see you having something ready to drop in

10   place on January 2nd, do you?                        Of `09?

11                           MR. BOREMAN: Right now the plan is to have

12   a     system          ready     for       people     to     start        enrolling               or

13   registering in January of `09.                          We may have to do it -

14   - I don't know if at that point we'll be ready to go

15   nationwide but at least we'll have some parts of the

16   country, maybe                 parts that are further along with the

17   state license program, to drop something into place.

18   Listening             to     this      discussion,           it's       going             to     be

19   problematic because the registry itself only applies

20   to recreational fishing in the EEZ -- between the 200

21   miles.           And there's no state license for intra-waters.

22     We'll          have        contact       information            but    for          only            a

23   fraction              of the people who will be fishing in that

24   state and that's going to be a major problem.

25                           We    have     a    sales      campaign,             a       marketing

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1    campaign, and that's one of the reasons why we're

2    bringing         Gordon    onboard       because        he's     right       in      the

3    middle of it.             He has been for thirty years.                         So he

4    understands the politics, he understands the issues,

5    who he needs to speak with and part of his job -- I

6    just finished writing his p.d. -- part of his job is

7    outreach.         A major part of his job is marketing style.

8      Because        these    are    issues       we're          going   to    have        to

9    tackle and they're serious issues.

10                      CAPT. DILERNIA: You couldn't have picked a

11   better man for the job, really.                       I think Gordon is --

12   I've worked with Gordon for so many years.                                         He's

13   ideally suited for it.                    I'm just -- if I -- that

14   political pulse that I see up in the northeast, what

15   happens there I think -- there's a potential there for

16   a problem.         And that's why I just mention it to all of

17   us so that we're aware of it.

18                      Thank you, Captain Fletcher.                      Is there any

19   other -- Dorothy?            I'm sorry, Mary Beth!

20                      MS. NICKELL-TOOLEY Thanks, Tony.                         I think

21   I'm kind of sensitive to that as well and have heard

22   some of those kinds of comments.                        In Maine I'm really

23   not sure where we're at as far as doing anything.                                           I

24   haven't heard of any                   specific actions that would

25   produce a saltwater license in the state of Maine.

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1    I'm sure they're having those discussions on a state

2    level at some point.                I would imagine that if you

3    wrote to all the commissioners, that they're having

4    discussions at the department.

5                      But the state of New Hampshire has already

6    moved forward and gone out to public hearings to have

7    a saltwater license.               They only have about fifteen

8    miles of coastline but at least it's one -- state.

9                      MR. FLETCHER: I just want to comment on

10   it.         I understand that this process is not going to

11   require the state to have a saltwater license to be

12   exempt from the registry.                  If you have some kind of

13   state registry of anglers, which would fall short of

14   licensing approach, as long as you can provide some

15   relatively accurate count of anglers fishing in the

16   ocean, through whatever process, that might be enough

17   to get you by.          I don't know -- they need the contact

18   information so that they can talk to anglers, rather

19   than go out to a body of people and wade through them

20     to find out who fishes.

21                     MS.   NICKELL-TOOLEY             One     quick    question,

22   because I really haven't followed this too much.                                 How

23   do you deal with tourists?

24                     MR. FLETCHER: With what?

25                     MS. NICKELL-TOOLEY Tourists.

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1                       MR. JONER: Tourists.

2                       (Laughter)

3                       MR. FLETCHER: Everybody in California that

4    goes         fishing   on     my     boat      has     to      have   a      license,

5    regardless of where you're from.                        But -

6                       MR. SIMPSON: One or two day license?                                 Out

7    of state license?

8                       MR. FLETCHER: It's a matter of counting

9    anglers and however the state chooses to do that, I

10   think.

11                      CAPT. DILERNIA: Any other questions for

12   Captain Fletcher?                Well, on behalf of the committee

13   I'd like to thank you.                      Your work and Mr. Kramer's

14   work on this has been extensive.                               In the past year

15   since we last met you've been to a number of meetings

16   and you're really totally uncompensated.                              You've gone

17   to a lot of work representing our committee and I want

18   to thank you, sir.                You couldn't have picked a better

19   man for the job to do this and you're proving us

20   right, really.          Thank you.

21                      MR. FLETCHER: Well I like to thank Vince

22   and Larry and Randy, too.                     They're right there, right

23   knee deep in it with the rest of us.

24                      CAPT.       DILERNIA:          Thank        you.        Our        next

25   agenda item -- MSA.                Mr. Gilmore?

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1                            MR. GILMORE: I've got a written report

2    that I'll show up on the screen.                            Laurel has me -

3                            CAPT. DILERNIA: Homework.

4                            MR. GILMORE: We have a written report.                                   A

5    number           of     MAFAC     members,        including          members      of      the

6    Magnuson-Stevens                  Act     subcommittee,              met    with        Alan

7    Risenhoover               to         continue           our         discussions             of

8    implementation                  of      MSA      reauthorization              and         the

9    committee offered the following recommendations and

10   comments.

11                           First bullet point, the group urges NOAA

12   fisheries to make clear that fishery management plans

13   do not need to be amended simply to reflect the annual

14   catch limit nomenclature, adopted in the implementing

15   regulations, but only to insure consistency of the

16   FMPs             with       the         concepts           in        Magnuson-Stevens

17   reauthorization                  and       the       new        national       standard

18   guidelines.               Our purpose there was simply to avoid a

19   make-work             for       already        stressed            regional      fishery

20   management              councils        just      to     --        you're   using         MSY

21   instead of over-fishing level and your terminology is

22   consistent, then you'd be deemed consistent with the

23   new regulations.                  You'd just have to use the identical

24   terms.

25                           Second bullet point, the group urges NOAA

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1    fisheries in consultation with NOAA General Counsel,

2    to advise the regional fishery management councils on

3    which FMPs are deemed to be in compliance with the

4    revised national standard guidelines.                           A member of our

5    group, who will remain nameless, said 2010 is shaping

6    up to be a train wreck.                    We said let's try to avoid

7    train wrecks.              That seems to be a pejorative term.

8    Let        the    councils      know      which        of     their   FMPs        have

9    adequate catch limit, accountability measures in them

10   as      the      process   goes       along,      as     NOAA    is   doing         the

11   analysis under the draft of the environmental impact

12   statement in other places, so we can found out where

13   we stand on a council by council basis.

14                        The group urged flexibility in the revised

15   national standard 1 guidelines for circumstances where

16   their data pour stops within a fishery, subject to

17   annual catch limit requirements.                        The group urges NOAA

18   fisheries to recognize and provide flexibility for

19   situations where an annual catch limit set below an

20   overfishing level might be exceeded in a year without

21   an adverse biological impact.                          So that would be a

22   situation where, to use a north Pacific example, where

23   the total catch levels are always set at or below an

24   ABC         level,    which      is      always        set      above/below           an

25   overfishing level.               So if there is a situation where

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1    you go over the annual catch limit, which are far

2    below an overfishing level, you want to be sure we

3    have the flexibility in the guidelines there to avoid

4    a penalty situation.

5                             The group strongly urges NOAA fisheries or

6    supports NOAA fisheries' plan to hold public workshop

7    in the fall to discuss developments relating to the

8    MSA implementation that would be focused, as you can

9    see,         on        the    annual     catch       limit         language       and       our

10   discussions.                    But     certainly           the         limited      access

11   privilege programs need issues and others.                                          It's a

12   great plan -- hold a public workshop and let people

13   see what is coming down the track and get acclimated.

14     That's the report of our merry band.

15                            CAPT. DILERNIA: Any questions on behalf of

16   the committee members for Mr. Gilmore?                                        I see no

17   questions                --     do       you       want            to     offer         these

18   recommendations in the form of a motion?

19                            MR. GILMORE: Yes, I would.

20                            CAPT. DILERNIA: Okay, we have a motion

21   from             Mr.    Gilmore        that      these        recommendations                 be

22   supported by the committee and sent to the agency.

23   Seconder was Mr. Leipzig -- Pete.                             We have a motion on

24   the floor.                   Is there any discussion on the motion?

25   Okay.             Not seeing any discussion on the motion, I'll

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1    put it to a vote.                All those that support the motion

2    say aye.

3                          (Chorus of ayes.)

4                          CAPT. DILERNIA: Opposed?                   Please make a

5    note that the motion was supported without opposition.

6      Okay.           Thank you for your report.

7                          MR. GILMORE: We like to tie them up in a

8    nice bow for you.

9                          CAPT.    DILERNIA:         That's        wonderful,       thank

10   you.             Thank you very much.            Next item on our agenda:

11   aquaculture.

12                         DR. HOGARTH: Could I just --

13                         CAPT. DILERNIA: Yes sir.

14                         DR.     HOGARTH:         The       reauthorization              of

15   Magnuson is a big, big burden, so to speak, on us --

16   particularly Alan and sustainable fishery.                           It's about

17   eight pages of things that we have to within certain

18   timeframes.             Nobody's realizes it takes money to do

19   this because you just reauthorize it and do it.                                     And

20   so Alan is doing a tremendous job of getting this

21   stuff done but it is going to be a very tight, tight

22   schedule and we need lots of in-put.                              Some of these

23   things are really going to be controversial and to try

24   to meet what we think Magnuson says and what some

25   other people think Magnuson says. And you're all aware

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1    that         the       environmental         group      had       a   great      deal        in

2    getting Magnuson passed and they have some difference

3    of opinion between us and maybe even the Hill on

4    what's in it.                 So it's going to be a difficult couple

5    years            for    the    sustainable           fisheries.           That           plus

6    keeping everything they got on their plate moving.

7    It's a good deal -- it's just a tough deal.                                   Thanks.

8                            CAPT. DILERNIA: Thank you.                    Dr. Billy, are

9    you ready? Your report -- aquaculture.

10                           DR. BILLY: I've handed out the summary

11   report of our discussions yesterday afternoon.                                             Our

12   discussions were largely in the form of updates by the

13   aquaculture              staff       from    NOAA      on     responding          to       the

14   policy recommendations and other recommendations that

15   the committee forwarded to NOAA last July.                                    Following

16   that format then, as you can see here in the summary

17   report, they basically informed us of where things

18   stood, progress that was made in various areas, and

19   I'll just highlight some of these.                                You can see it in

20   detail here in the report.

21                           In terms of the ten year plan, the initial

22   emphasis there was the idea that -- of importance of

23   NOAA thinking ahead and developing a strategic plan --

24   where it's headed, what its role is going to be, where

25   it      should          put    its    emphasis.             They      have      in       fact

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1    completed a fully vetted ten year plan.                                 It's finished

2    and approved and it's in the final stages of being

3    printed and will be available shortly.                                  It's attached

4    to this summary report.

5                           We     went    on     then      to    the    whole        idea        of

6    increasing             budget        resources           for      the       aquaculture

7    program.              The summary is here.                    While there hasn't

8    been any significant influx of new money, it's clear

9    that they're working hard to use the money that is

10   available effectively and leverage it wherever they

11   can,         and      I'll    come     back      to     that      in    a    couple          of

12   minutes.

13                          One      important           small         but       significant

14   recommendation was the idea of getting a separate line

15   item in the President's budget solution.                                     It's clear

16   how much money is being asked for -- how much is being

17   spent in this area.                   That's been accomplished now, at

18   least            in   terms     of    the      budget       that       the    President

19   submitted to Congress for the next round.

20                          In     our     discussions,           the       working         group

21   talked about some of the impediments to additional

22   U.S.        marine      aquaculture,            and     ended      up    focusing            on

23   several areas, one of which was the inadequacy of the

24   NOAA budget in this area, the importance of hatchery

25   capability to the further development of aquaculture

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1    in      the       U.S.,     and    the     lack      of     a    coordinated         and

2    efficient license process to permit new operations.

3    Now obviously, in part that's what the legislation is

4    designed to address.                     This is one of the priority

5    areas            among    the     others      I've      mentioned      that        were

6    discussed by the working group.                                 NOAA's also been

7    working           hard     to     identify       research         priorities         and

8    reaching            out     to     various        industry        groups,        state

9    aquaculture representatives, trade associations, the

10   science centers in NOAA fisheries, and others.                                     They

11   plan to continue to do that.

12                            We also had a brief discussion on stock

13   enhancement and one of the particular points that was

14   made was the importance of publicly funded research

15   assistance to better understand how that can work and

16   be a useful tool in fisheries management.                              That area

17   is addressed in some detail in the ten year plan.

18                            Next area of discussion was for NOAA to,

19   on behalf of the entire federal government, launch a

20   broad marine aquaculture development initiative and

21   one step toward that end was the idea the committee

22   came up with of a national summit on aquaculture.                                      As

23   indicated here, that's planned and scheduled for this

24   month, the 26th and 27th.                   They were able to share with

25   us an outline of the agenda for that meeting.                               They've

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1    indicated that the MAFAC committee will be invitees to

2    the summit and we're encouraged to attend.                                       And the

3    focus of the summit will be the business side of

4    aquaculture -- looking at the impediments to further

5    aquaculture development, the availability of capital,

6    and          other        issues       that       impact             the     commercial

7    development of aquaculture.

8                            We went on and talked about some of the

9    other            steps    that        have      been    taken          by    the         NOAA

10   aquaculture staff, including the establishment of a

11   aquaculture points of contact group, which has helped

12   improve           communication            already      and      is        expected          to

13   continue           to     improve      communication.                  The    NOAA         has

14   focused on identifying other government agencies that

15   could be more supportive of aquaculture.                                    One example

16   here in the report is NIST -- the National Institute

17   of Science and Technology -- the former Bureau of

18   Standards,           that       has    a     grant     program         for      advanced

19   technologies              and     they       have      apparently            agreed          to

20   include            aquaculture             in    their          solicitation                 of

21   proposals.

22                           They're       also      working         to    enhance          their

23   knowledge            of    and     relationship            with        other        groups

24   interested in aquaculture, including those from the

25   environmental                   community,               various                research

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1    institutions, both public and private.

2                          Another category where we addressed a set

3    of recommendations to NOAA was revisiting Chapter 22

4    of the U.S. Commission final report to Congress and

5    there has not been any significant progress in this

6    area to date.             They've been focusing on these other

7    areas, but it hasn't been lost.                      It is their intent to

8    move in this area as they continue to move forward.

9                          Mike Rubino then sort of updated us on the

10   new aquaculture bill that's been introduced in the

11   House.            I   understand       from      Bill         that    it     may        be

12   introduced in the Senate very shortly.

13                         DR. HOGARTH: Tomorrow.

14                         DR. BILLY: Tomorrow.                   That's very, very

15   shortly. There's a good possibility of hearings some

16   time in July to get the process started.                                     There's

17   expression of support, general for the legislation,

18   from various           groups around the country, but also some

19   opposition.           Some of the opposition is -- you can find

20   it under tab 11 in our ringbinder notebook, in the

21   form         of   a    letter    to     some       of        the     Congressional

22   committees.

23                         We then focused on certain aspects of the

24   bill now pending in Congress and several people that

25   are in the aquaculture business or are very close to

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1    it, encouraged a legal review of the bill from a

2    business perspective and felt that it could reveal

3    some interesting potential traps, if you will, from a

4    business perspective that would impact the interest

5    and willingness of investors to put money into this

6    area.             NOAA was encouraged to explore how to do this

7    kind of a legal review from a business perspective and

8    Mike         Rubino       again       offered         drafting      assistance          or

9    whatever's appropriate in terms of -- if there are

10   ways to clarify the language or improve it.                                         They

11   would be willing to help in that regard.

12                            Another      important         observation     came        out.

13   Bill, I think you in particular and others in NOAA

14   leadership, should think about.                            And that is as people

15   on a day to day basis interact at the regional or

16   local level with NOAA staff in the aquaculture area,

17   they             often    get      this       feedback         of   resistance          or

18   reluctance to be involved in aquaculture because they

19   see it as having a conflict with other mandates of

20   NOAA in terms of management of resources or other

21   concerns that NOAA staff raise.                              It could be helpful

22   to some form of communication that makes it very clear

23   that this is not only a legitimate area of involvement

24   but a priority of the agency in terms of work in this

25   area as appropriate.

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1                            We did discuss certain other provisions of

2    the act.            I'm not going to go into these.                         Got some

3    clarification             of     some      of    the     language.         And        that

4    pretty well summarizes our discussions -- the list of

5    attendees is provided here and I've also attached or

6    note that there was another hand-out on the table

7    titled           "How    the     National         Offshore          Aquaculture         Act

8    Addresses Environmental Issues."                                  So you should add

9    that to your -- at least it's available here, so I

10   assume it was passed out.                       So that's the report.

11                           CAPT. DILERNIA: Dr. Hogarth?

12                           DR. HOGARTH: First of all, I want to thank

13   MAFAC            because they've been very active in this and --

14   and I think we've tried to react and I think the

15   Admiral -- they had a meeting and follow-up.                                            The

16   Secretary of Commerce, is this his -- one thing, he's

17   really gotten behind this.                        He's had several meetings

18   with the business leaders.                        He was very much in favor

19   of making sure that he was here for the summit.                                           He

20   will kick the summit off.                         It's a -- the bill we're

21   sure will be introduced tomorrow in the Senate.                                                I

22   don't know that they're going to change it.                                  They may

23   add some provision -- may opt out for Alaska because

24   Senator Stevens is running for re-election and he's

25   got the state that says they're opposed to aquaculture

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1    even though I was up there last Friday and everywhere

2    I went, all I saw was aquaculture, honestly.                     But they

3    really seem to be -- and what we're trying to do is

4    work with both the House and the Senate on how the

5    amendments will be done, so we can do like we did with

6    Magnuson -- work with House side on a bill and then go

7    to the Senate and be adopted.                    But we are standing by,

8    Sam and Michael, to make any drafting assistance they

9    need.

10                         It appears that the House is trying to

11   have the first round of hearings on July the 8th and

12   we'd like to make sure the MAFAC is involved in that--

13   if we have any input into who testifies that week of

14   July 8th.            I think it's -- I hope this bill can get

15   through.            I'm concerned if it doesn't -- then what it

16   means then to the groups that oppose it, particularly

17   start in on imports and this type thing would just

18   create one problem to another problem.

19                         So I think we have to look at this bill

20   and look at it very carefully to make sure that we can

21   look at the business aspects, look at the legal review

22   we can do, and the environmental concerns I think can

23   be addressed pretty easily, personally.                      I think we

24   can.             One of the parts of the summit was to try to

25   have some of the science and that type of part.                        I was

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1    told that after IWC that this was one of my priorities

2    to ICCAT but this was supposedly would be one of my

3    jobs, and to work closely with Michael to see we can

4    get        this   bill    through.           We     need     input;      we       need

5    support.          And MAFAC has done a great job and I want to

6    thank you all for that.                    Comments have been on point

7    and have really helped to direct us.                         Thanks.

8                        DR.   BILLY:       I    move      that    the   report            be

9    adopted.

10                       MR. RAFTICAN: Second.

11                       CAPT. DILERNIA: Chair, we have a motion

12   from Dr. Billy and second from Tom Raftican.                             Is there

13   any discussion on the motion?                       Any questions for Dr.

14   Billy?

15                       MR. DEWEY: I guess it's discussion on the

16   motion.           I just wanted to highlight a part in the

17   report that Tom didn't bring out necessarily, but it

18   was certainly part of the discussion and it was a

19   compliment to your staff for doing an excellent job

20   and for progressing on MAFAC's recommendations.                                     But

21   also for me personally, as far as observation on the

22   legislation, they've done a great job at trying to

23   take the input from all the various constituent groups

24   and find a balance to try to incorporate into the new

25   draft of the legislation.

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1                         DR. HOGARTH: Thanks.                It's a small group.

2      The aquaculture team is small and they have a lot to

3    but it's a very effective group and they've done a

4    great job -- but they've got a lot on the plate and

5    you have to put priorities on some of it, like Chapter

6    22.         Something there to review but it's just, right

7    now the legislation, trying to react to that is --

8                         CAPT.    DILERNIA:         Any     other        questions          or

9    comments before we vote on the motion?                                 Dr. Billy?

10   Any discussion?              Seeing none, all those that support

11   accepting the report say aye.

12                        (Chorus of ayes.)

13                        CAPT.        DILERNIA:       Opposed?             Seeing           no

14   opposition the motion is adopted.                             Thank you. Okay,

15   we're moving right along here today.                           It's pretty good

16   -- we're a very efficient bunch here.                                   Laurel is

17   saying           because     we    had     so     much        time    to     do       our

18   subcommittee work and she's right.                             That was a good

19   model that we followed.

20                        MS. BRYANT: Trying to keep it simple seems

21   to work better.

22                        CAPT. DILERNIA: Okay, our next item for

23   discussion is Fish Watch and my dear friend from Texas

24   is not here. Oh, there he is!

25                        MR. RAYBURN: You may remember from the

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1    discussion on Monday that we had a presentation on

2    Fish Watch.          There were several points that folks

3    wanted to deal with, so with the committee's agreement

4    we set up a sub-working group within the Commerce

5    subcommittee and set that meeting up for 10:30 this

6    morning.         These are the people that were there: MAFAC

7    members and staff, at least during a portion of our

8    discussion, and a couple of visitors as well.

9                 Chairman Billy started out the meeting and kind

10   of reflected on setting up the working group and then

11   passed it to me.          I made an original statement on what

12   I wanted the focus of this session to be.                           And that

13   was about the last time anybody cared about that.

14                     We had general discussion that covered a

15   lot of bases and it was probably good.                           I tried to

16   extract -- hopefully this is the right slide and it

17   may not be.         No, it's not.             But anyway, the idea was

18   to cover the issues that would be involved in Fish

19   Watch and we did cover from basically the idea of

20   certification to the organic issues with seafood to

21   the health and safety aspects of seafood and then

22   consumer education.

23                     I've     got      another         slide   --    this          one

24   reflects on the notes I was taking and some of those

25   may not be relevant to the discussion, but the general

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1    end items on this are here -- the outcomes.                                 We felt

2    like that the Fish Watch group should be maintained as

3    a subcommittee.              There were a lot of opportunities in

4    our discussion to cover a lot of bases besides just

5    the initial roll-out of the Fish Watch website that's

6    planned.

7                            There was strong discussion on encouraging

8    NOAA fisheries and NMFS to be more forceful as they

9    support their activities against folks who would be

10   detrimental to it.                   I think everyone -- there's a

11   great            show   of   support       to     validate      the    work        that

12   National Marines Fishery Service, NOAA fisheries is

13   doing in fishery management and it should be proud to

14   stand up for them.                  And the industry would stand up

15   for them and they encourage them to stand up as well.

16                           Then the Fish Watch was just considered to

17   be        one      of     those      tactics         in     promoting       fishery

18   management effectively within our nation.                             We had back

19   and forth discussion about certification, what role

20   this may be competition with in the private sector and

21   all that but ultimately, as I said, I think the Fish

22   Watch program gives MAFAC a broad purview to discuss a

23   lot of issues relevant to the seafood industry, both

24   internationally and domestically.

25                           We looked at the content of the website

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1    and        came        up        with    some       suggestions         to        the     staff,

2    looking                at        perhaps        a        hierarchy           of       personal

3    preferences.                     When you go to a seafood, it's price,

4    quality, and sustainability so we thought if you hit

5    the        bullets,              the     price      is     already          there       in       the

6    marketplace but maybe look at the quality which would

7    include               various       aspects         of    the       fish,     the       seafood

8    product               --    maybe       something         in    preparation             of       the

9    product, nutritional value and any cautions that might

10   be there like pregnant women shouldn't eat this and

11   stuff like that.

12                               That may constitute a fairly common set of

13   bullets           right          under     the      name       of     the    species           that

14   occurs in the text on the bigger species items.                                              Staff

15   indicated a desire to have about thirty species when

16   this is rolled out and the target date for that is

17   still August 5 at the New Orleans Seafood Competition.

18                               In    that     regard        then       they're       requesting

19   additional species to be added to the list and they

20   also request a review of the pages both of those

21   species and some of the common pages on that website

22   and those comments should be forwarded to Michael or

23   Katie            --    Michael          Kelly.           They're      working           on     this

24   project               and    I    think       their       contact       information                is

25   listed at the back of the Power Point that they gave

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1    us on Monday.

2                       Ideally they would like to have all of

3    that as soon as possible.                 By the first of July staff

4    intend           to send the pages back out to the working

5    group for review so that they can be finalized with

6    the target date of that roll-out August 5th.                               That

7    will include         a press conference and other activities

8    around the New Orleans Seafood Competition in July.

9    There's an interest in trying to start working up the

10   hype on this with various promotional items.

11                      Mr. Chairman, that completes the report.

12                      CAPT.   DILERNIA:         Very      good.   Thank         Mr.

13   Rayburn.         Do you have any motions that you're offering

14   for consideration today?

15                      MR. RAYBURN: I think my one motion would

16   be -- most of this is informational, but the motion to

17   maintain, I mean I would make a motion that this

18   report be accepted or be received, whatever the right

19   term is.

20                      CAPT. DILERNIA: Received.

21                      MR. RAYBURN: Received.

22                      CAPT. DILERNIA: We have a second?

23                      MR. JONER: I'll second.

24                      CAPT. DILERNIA: Second by Mr. Joner.                        So

25   we have a motion that the report be received.                                  In

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1    other words we have it.               Doesn't necessarily mean that

2    members support every single item in it.                           That would

3    be the accepted report.               Dr. Hogarth?

4                      DR.    HOGARTH:         I     really       appreciate              the

5    discussion that took place this morning.                          I thought it

6    was an excellent discussion.                     I've been one of those

7    that don't think we do enough on seafood promotion.                                         I

8    don't think we're out there promoting the healthiness.

9      I get some criticism for even supporting the National

10   Academy of Science study but I thought it's worth it.

11     And I think we are the U.S. experts in fisheries and

12   we should be and we are.                 And I think we need to take

13   advantage of that and I think, you know, provide the

14   consumers        with       the      proper        information             on        the

15   healthiness,       the      helpfulness,           and      all   of      seafood.

16   We've been struggling internally.                      We really have.

17                     So how's the best way to do this?                               As I

18   said to the small group this morning, I really get

19   concerned        when   I    look      at     red,      yellow,     and          green

20   because it really doesn't depict what's really going

21   on in the U.S. and the way we manage our fisheries and

22   all.

23                     I'd like to see MAFAC stay involved in

24   this because I think what we're doing August the 5th

25   is sort of the beginning.                     I think the expertise we

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1    have in this room will be valuable to us as we move

2    forward.            And we want to move forward.                    And so I would

3    hope that MAFAC would stay involved in this issue for

4    us and with as we move forward.

5                          We sponsored the seafood cook-off in New

6    Orleans.            We have been doing it and this year we've

7    added a extra day for a few cooks to come in, and not

8    just have chefs but little dishes that will be simple

9    to fix so we're trying to say fifteen minute dinners

10   type thing on the second day.                                We'd like to roll

11   something out on this at that meeting because we'll

12   have a lot of press there and Southern Cooking is

13   going sponsor that this year and it's a good venue to

14   get something out.                    So that's why we were sort of

15   pushing some.              We need to do it now, not two years

16   from now.            I'd like to see more done on this before I

17   leave.            I do hope MAFAC will stay involved and we're

18   going to push it internally to get it done.

19                         So   thanks for the discussion.                          It was

20   excellent and we need to move forward and do more.

21                         CAPT.       DILERNIA:          Are         there   any       other

22   questions or any discussion on the motion that we

23   have?            Mr. Dewey.

24                         MR. DEWEY: We had some great discussion, I

25   agree,            particularly        on     the     certification          and        Dr.

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1    Hogarth, I think you were out of the room when Rod,

2    you        made         your     comment         at     the        end    on      the        MSC

3    certification.                  That was an eye-opener to me and I

4    think            it's    worth     repeating          here     for       Dr.    Hogarth's

5    benefit.

6                             MR. GILMORE: Well, the comment that I had

7    made, for the benefit of everybody, we're involved in

8    the MSC program -- Alaskan pollack's been certified.

9    Our experience -- I don't know if I can short-cut the

10   four        year        long       process        here but I'll try                    --      an

11   assessment team of three people came in and reviewed

12   the fishery, the fish stock, the health of the fish

13   stock, the impact of the fishery on the ecosystem, and

14   the management system.

15                            And those three people were experts in

16   various fields, some of which actually had to do with

17   Alaskan pollack, but not two-thirds of the team.                                               At

18   the        end      of    the     day,      he     came       up    with       some        very

19   uncomplimentary comments about the management of the

20   fishery.                  At the same time, the National Fishery

21   Service could not have been more professional, more

22   collegial, more generous in the time and the resources

23   they committed to help this assessment team over four

24   years get its work done.                       And that same dedication has

25   gone through for the cod fishery, for the halibut

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1    fishery, for fisheries up and down the east and west

2    coasts of the United States that were involved in the

3    program.

4                             Our motivation in getting into it was to

5    get a third party validation because important buyers

6    came to us and said it's important to us that there be

7    a     third         party         validation         for      it.      And     that        was

8    motivation enough for us.

9                             My feeling is National Fishery Service - -

10   this             isn't       a    two-way        street        right    now       with            a

11   stewardship council and it should be.                                  What I'd like

12   to see is NOAA fisheries approach the MSC and say this

13   program has to work for us.                            We just can't have three

14   people come in and visit a fishery and pretend they

15   know        more         than      hundreds       of     dedicated      managers           and

16   scientists that are involved in the conduct of these

17   fisheries day to day.                       I would like to see a situation

18   where one aspect of this assessment is a check mark

19   for       the       fishery         management          system.        This      idea        of

20   originating               it      with      an     Australia         fishery      in       the

21   program -- I'd really like to see it catch fire.                                         Just

22   an overall check mark for the management system on a

23   country-wide basis.

24                            I       think the MSC owes that to National

25   Fishery Service and the work that it does to come and

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1    say that this meets our standards.                                  And have           them

2    saying we're going to turn over all our staff time and

3    resources to help you assess these fisheries on an

4    individual basis.                    You've got to make this program

5    more practical and effective and useful.                                   We want a

6    check mark for NOAA fisheries.                                Any fishery in the

7    United States that gets in this program, know they go

8    through an openly transparent management process --

9    check mark for that.

10                            CAPT. DILERNIA: Care to respond?

11                            DR. HOGARTH: No.

12                            CAPT. DILERNIA: I have a list to speak.

13   Mr. Connelly, you're next.

14                            MR.    CONNELLY: Sure, just                 --    by way of

15   truth in advertising, I'm on the Board of Directors of

16   the Marine Stewardship Council, at the strong urging

17   of my good friend Gilmore.                         So with that as a word of

18   caution or whatever, Bill I think you did -- I think a

19   meeting between yourself, the Canadians, New Zealand,

20   Australia, etc. with MSC staff and the Chairman of MSC

21   would at a minimum provide a good opportunity for the

22   staff            at    MSC     to   understand         the     stresses     that         the

23   program               places    on     you      and      your      peers    in       other

24   countries.

25                            Just as a reminder to folks, MSC has three

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1    parts: the first is what does your stock look like?

2    The second principle is: does it impact the ecosystem

3    and do you understand those impacts?                               And the third

4    is: do you have a management system in place?                                          And

5    what         Jim     is    suggesting        is      we        believe    the        U.S.

6    management system is an excellent system.                                   We do a

7    good job with it and to have others come in in a three

8    person team and second guess the hundreds of people up

9    in the Alaska               Science Center or Northwest Science

10   Center and other places, is a little bit of a bold

11   move.

12                        On the other hand, Bill, having it done                                  -

13   - MSC was up with the Canadian government last week --

14   their staff was.             You could have an individual meeting

15   with         them.    New    Zealand         could        have     an    individual

16   meeting.           But I think if the governments                            went in

17   collectively to MSC, it might have more of an impact.

18                        DR. HOGARTH: So Australia, New Zealand,

19   Canada?

20                        MR.    CONNELLY:          Just       our      initial         list:

21   Australia, New Zealand, Canada, potentially Norway,

22   not Iceland.               But I think it would send a strong

23   signal that MSC is a program that's here to stay.                                        It

24   is a brand that a number of our companies have and

25   fisheries are getting some value out of.                             But MSC also

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1    understands that they have some improvements that they

2    need to make.            And your staff is just going to get

3    called on more and more as more U.S. fisheries enter

4    into this program.          It might be a way for you to save

5    some of your own staff's time.

6                     DR.   HOGARTH:         I    know     Doug        got      somewhat

7    frustrated at the, in particular, all the demands and

8    no responses, in particular when they came in with

9    their research and demands on the fisheries.                                   Didn't

10   seem to be based on much.

11                    MR. GILMORE: There are a few aspects of

12   this thing that you would want to discuss.                                    One of

13   these is these conditions that they --

14                    CAPT.     DILERNIA:          Okay.           Mr.          Simpson.

15   Larry.

16                    MR. SIMPSON: Just wanted to endorse Jim

17   and John's comments.             I was -- I'm as interested as

18   others, in some of the Gulf areas on some fisheries of

19   looking at certification, MSC and other certifications

20   on certain fisheries.              I understand this process is

21   very expensive, and they're getting a lot of work from

22   the federal government and charging a great deal.                                            I

23   hope that Fish Watch will have at some point some kind

24   of       credibility     maybe     to       stand         along    with           other

25   certification type projects, programs, for fisheries

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1    that aren't necessarily quite as expensive and by the

2    nature           of   that    animal,         out     of        reach    to    certain

3    fisheries.

4                          CAPT. DILERNIA: Dr. Billy, you next?

5                          DR. BILLY: I'd also like to endorse this

6    idea and suggest we go a step further and put it in

7    the form of a recommendation from MAPAC, that NOAA be

8    encouraged or urged to organize a meeting among the

9    countries that were mentioned to explore reciprocal

10   recognition           of     the    management          regimes         that    are       in

11   place in those countries in return for the support and

12   assistance that NOAA fisheries and the other fishery

13   agencies in those countries provide to MSC.

14                         CAPT. DILERNIA: I appreciate the offer,

15   Dr. Billy.            Right now we have a motion on the floor

16   that was made by Mr. Rayburn regarding our receiving

17   his report.            Once we clear that motion then I'll turn

18   to you to make another motion, if you could make that

19   -- take a moment to write it out.                               Is there any other

20   discussion on this case?

21                         MR. CATES: I'm a little bit confused by

22   this talking about MSC and making a recommendation --

23   National Marine Fisheries, go and engage with them.

24   Because at the same discussion, there was much talk

25   about National Marine Fisheries being the leader and

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1    the authority on fisheries and that we don't need to

2    go to these type of organizations.                                 They should be

3    coming to us.

4                            CAPT. DILERNIA: Let's just try to keep

5    this clean, housekeeping-wise.                           I'd first like to act

6    on Ralph's motion.                      Then we'll have Tom's motion.

7    Because            it    sounds       like       your      comments       --     you're

8    speaking to the motion that Tom plans on making.

9                            MR. CATES: I'm referring to the comments

10   that             you    were     making         earlier,          about     MSC         and

11   encouraging Bill to engage with them.

12                           CAPT. DILERNIA: Mr. Rayburn?

13                           MR. RAYBURN: As to my motion, I apologize

14   -- a lot of this discussion I did include in the notes

15   I was taking but in the -- what I presented to the

16   committee was synthesized and I'd be happy to put more

17     of the notes in.                There was a lot of discussion about

18     different items like this and certainly more emphasis

19   on where NMFS should position themselves as a leader

20   of fisheries and validation of all fisheries issues.

21   I left that out but I could certainly include it in

22   the notes.               I think the conversation here includes

23   that.            I apologize to the people at the meeting that I

24   didn't refer to that.

25                           CAPT. DILERNIA: What I'd like to do, just

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1    to keep this clean, is I'll take a vote on receiving

2    Mr.       Rayburn's      motion      and     then      because      Mr.    Billy's

3    about to make a motion that's going to require an

4    action on our part, whereas receiving of his report

5    doesn't require any action on our part.                             So is there

6    any other discussion on receiving the report from the

7    Fish Watch work group?

8                          Okay, if there's no discussion on that I'd

9    like to take a vote.               All those that support receiving

10   the report from Fish Watch, please say aye.

11                         (Chorus of ayes.)

12                         CAPT. DILERNIA: Anyone opposed?                  Show that

13   the report has been received by the committee.                                  Okay,

14   now as Dr. Billy's writing on a motion, I understand

15   that there's some discussion -- additional discussion

16   on this topic.              Mr. Cates, do you want to add any

17   more?            I also have Mr. Connelly next after you, sir.

18                         MR. CATES: Maybe I got a little confused

19   on this, but on one hand what we were saying in the

20   meeting earlier was National Marine Fisheries is doing

21   a     good        job.    The     United        States        is   managing         our

22   fisheries and we're the leading authority.                                And that

23   these groups should come to us to get the scientific

24   information.

25                         On the other hand we're saying that with

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1    this         particular         group,        we    encourage           you   to      go      to

2    engage in this discussion which is contradictory to

3    what we were discussing in some of the other groups.

4    So I'm just trying to get some --

5                          MR. CONNELLY: What I meant, earlier in the

6    day I think we were talking about -- NOAA does a very

7    good             job managing our nation's fisheries.                            We would

8    like them to be more forceful in defending themselves.

9      Industry regularly talks about the sustainability of

10   our nation's fisheries.                        We appreciate the work that

11   Bill         and     his   team        has     been      doing      to    become          more

12   aggressive in this area -- countering the B.S. that

13   occasionally               is       out       there.               On     MSC        though

14   specifically, they come to NOAA fisheries and ask for

15   a ton of data for each fishery that's being developed,

16   under this principle free, which is the analysis of do

17   you have a management system in place for any fishery.

18                         Our thought is -- we would like to or it

19   would be a good discussion for Bill and his other

20   peers from other countries to go to MSC and say you

21   asked for all this information from us in order to

22   satisfy            this    principle          free      in     your      system.              We

23   consider ourselves to be a well-run -- have good solid

24   management systems in place and would basically like a

25   pass on you examining principle free because we think

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1    we do a damn good job.

2                               Right now there's -- right now MSC relies

3    on NOAA and these other countries to give them data.

4    Canada and at least one of their significant fisheries

5      has said we're not working with you anymore.                                              And

6    there's           a    struggle          with         industry       on    that    because

7    industry              is     now      six      years         into    a     certification

8    program, part of it because the government has not

9    provided the certifying team the information.

10                              So there's -- both sides have a need here.

11     And what we'd like to do is for well-run fishery

12   programs,             and        there      are       some    countries       that        have

13   generally well-run fishery programs, do not have the

14   MSC systems worked by groups that want to achieve

15   their means that they haven't been able to achieve

16   even through the regulatory process, the legislative

17   process, or even here in the litigation process.

18                              I'm     not      sure       if     that        answered        your

19   question.

20                              MR. CATES: I support that, but I'm just --

21   there            appeared          to     be      a    contradiction.                But           I

22   understand support.                         I mean I basically agree that

23   NOAA needs to stand up and say this is what the facts

24   are.             Because there is so much misinformation out

25   there.            And leverage that.                   But if we're going to do

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1    that, we've got to do that with all the groups, too.

2                          CAPT. DILERNIA: Mary Beth?

3                          MS. NICKELL-TOOLEY I just had a question.

4      Jim spoke to           us about this briefly.              When you were

5    going through the certification process, at one point

6    they put out the plan for public review and I went and

7    read through part of it.                       One of the things that

8    seemed to be of concern were the conditions and then

9    obviously that you're going to come back five years

10   later and then see if you've met the conditions and if

11   you haven't met the conditions, then you might lose

12   your certification.               And it seems like you're better

13   off never having a certification versus having one and

14   then losing one.

15                         It seemed a lot of the conditions were

16   things that the fishery was not going to be able to

17   meet -- that the agency was going to have to meet

18   them.            And that to me seemed to be a terrible position

19   to put both the fishery and the agency in, from a

20   third party source.               I don't know where you go with

21   that.

22                         MR. GILMORE: What Mary Beth is referring

23   to is that you are scored on a number of indicators --

24   in our case there were 72 indicators by which the

25   fishery was evaluated.                 If you scored 80 or above on

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1    those indicators then you're home free.                                 If you score

2    below 60 on any one of them, your fishery fails.                                             If

3    you score between 60 and 80 on an indicator, then

4    there are these conditions to bring your score up.

5                            We were in the position                  - - Alaska salmon

6    -- the client was the state of Alaska, so the manager

7    of the fishery, and so the discussion was how you

8    change           your    Alaska      salmon        management          to     beat         our

9    standard.             In our case, as Mary Beth points out, most

10   of the conditions were -- the National Marine Fishery

11   Service were the management authority and they just

12   ended up calling it -- sometimes it was the council,

13   sometimes it was the agency -- should do this.                                             And

14   there            we   were,     A-sector         of     the      Alaskan          pollack

15   industry as the client.                        So you write up an action

16   plan saying okay, we'll go talk to the agency.                                        Never

17   hurts to ask.

18                           But   the     process        itself       is,    I      thought,

19   deeply            flawed      because        they      would       come        up        with

20   conditions, and you know Commerce doesn't appropriate

21   the money, the agency can't do it -- physically can't

22   do      it,       legally     probably         can't      do     it,    and        so      the

23   research -- the best example was you shall conduct an

24   experimental fishery on the past -- on sea lions.

25                           What you need to do is you need to go into

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1    these areas that have been closed under the SA and

2    trawl in those areas, so we can determine -- you just

3    ended up in a really ludicrous situation where some of

4    the things were silly and some of the things were

5    illegal,           some    of   the    things       were       unnecessary,         and

6    really, the situation we need to get to, if the United

7    States fisheries are going to get into this program in

8    a big way, is that's part of the conversation it has

9    to have with the Marine Stewardship Council.

10                           You have to say it cannot be so arrogant

11   as to come in, with three people, looking at a fishery

12   on and off over a year long period and pretend you

13   know             more    than     U.S.       laws,         U.S.    regulations,

14   Congressional appropriations policy, etc.                           You need to

15   just say, look, it's a nice political safety valve for

16   you         to      have    a     condition           because      you've           got

17   environmental stakeholders engaging in the process and

18   you can take some of the political strain away from

19   the certification by saying -- and here are a bunch of

20   conditions.              That's just not, to me, pun intended, a

21   sustainable program.                I think the agency just needs to

22     -- and the agencies from around the world need to say

23   that -- is we welcome your third party validation but

24   we're not interested in this type of arrogance.                                       We

25   just won't tolerate it.

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1                         CAPT. DILERNIA: Dr. Holliday.

2                         DR. HOLLIDAY: I just wanted to, just by

3    point of information, and Bill's already agreed that

4    we take this discussion forward and work on it.                                           But

5    about two years ago, Bill issued a policy with respect

6    to      private      sector      labeling         of    fishery        products             in

7    reaction to the situation with the certification for

8    pollack.            Basically our position is stated as the

9    Magnuson Act identifies the nation's standards for

10   sustainable fisheries management.                           We've got national

11   standards.            We've got an open, transparent process

12   with         the    council      system        that      insures       only           peer-

13   reviewed            science       is      used         to      make     scientific

14   recommendations that is then developed into objectives

15   -- goals and objectives that are publicly discussed

16   and published, in a rule-making that's the notes from

17   common rule-making.

18                        And those are the standards by which U.S.

19   fisheries are to be judged.                            A private third-party

20   entity, whether it's MSC or anybody else, is agreed to

21   establish whatever certification process they wish to.

22     In many cases industry finds a reasonable case to be

23   made to be certified by them.                          But Bill's policy and

24   our statements to MSC and our discussions with them

25   have         said   we're     not      going     to     torque        our      research

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1    programs, our funding profiles -- I mean, we have a

2    federal            budget    process        that      identifies       priorities

3    about what data we collect, what stock assessments we

4    conduct, what analyses are necessary to support the

5    councils and the process as identified by the Magnuson

6    Act.             So those are the standards and those are the

7    measures and those are the indices by which we are

8    held accountable to Congress and to the nation for

9    success in fishery stewardship.

10                         We    respond         to     anybody's         request            for

11   information for data under applicable law.                                  We can't

12   refuse to give MSC data.                     We give them access to data

13   analyses as we would anybody else under the Freedom of

14   Information Act, though we don't want to set up a

15   relationship where we're spending our precious stock

16   assessment           scientist's          time     responding        to      specific

17   taskings           from     the    private         sector       to   establish                 a

18   certification.

19                         This just by way of background -- it's not

20   a new issue for us.                   Bill's been very assertive and

21   we've met with MSC in the past and discussed these

22   positions.            I think the notion of collaborating with

23   others and reinforcing the position that our standards

24   for sustainability and our measures of success are

25   written in statute.

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1                     We have a process and we have the councils

2    that identify publicly the goals and objectives for

3    each fishery.        We have peer-reviewed science.                         So

4    there's a fair amount of institutional infrastructure

5    set up already in the U.S. to insure that we know

6    which fisheries are sustainable.                    We know what three

7    categories of science, management, and research are

8    essential to "certify something" as sustainable by the

9    standards that Congress has set for us.                     So just a

10   little bit of background to -- it's not something that

11   we're just uncovering today.

12                    DR. HOGARTH: Just to that point -- I think

13   it came out, Jim, because you all, Doug and Jim --

14   figure it had to.          But Canada has mentioned this to

15   me, so it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to get the

16   government together.             Because Canada mentioned the

17   problems they've had with some of it.                    To take it a

18   step further, with the four governments getting with

19   them, it would probably be more effective right now.

20                    CAPT. DILERNIA: Okay.             Looks like you have

21   a motion prepared, sir.

22                    DR. BILLY: NOAA fisheries is encouraged to

23   organize a meeting between MSC and several countries,

24   to be selected by NOAA to explore explicit recognition

25     of the respective participating countries' fishery

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1    management regimes as a whole by MSC.

2                       CAPT. DILERNIA: We have a motion.                               Do we

3    have a second?            Second by Mr. Gilmore.                     Okay, Laurel

4    is about to type that motion for our review up on the

5    screen.          And I see there's already a discussion list.

6      Larry Simpson?

7                       MR.    SIMPSON:         Question           --    is     this         and

8    should this only be limited to MSC certification?

9                       CAPT. DILERNIA: The question is to the

10   group or to the motion?

11                      MR. SIMPSON: To the group, yes.

12                      CAPT.     DILERNIA:         Anyone         care       to     --      Mr.

13   Gilmore?

14                      MR. GILMORE: I guess for all practical

15   purposes, I mean the MSC is the game in town from a

16   certification            standpoint        and      obviously            there          are

17   official         lists    out     there       which          --    when       somebody

18   depended on research and a nice printer.                                      I think

19   practically speaking, if other certification programs

20   become viable, it would probably be good to have the

21   same discussion with them.

22                      MR. SIMPSON: Another question is, is MSC

23   desired by a marketing need and why couldn't NOAA

24   fisheries just say you're a sustainable fishery?                                      It's

25   instead of.

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1                        MR. GILMORE: It's what makes the market

2    happy.             The    market       is     out      there         dealing          with

3    environmental            NGOs   and     looking        for         ways   to     assure

4    people they're buying sustainable sources and this

5    third party validation -- they've been around for ten

6    years, they've got money behind them, they're well-

7    organized          and    people     in     the     marketplace           are       being

8    recruited to support the program and encourage their

9    suppliers to join with the fun.                         And I should say we

10   have realized benefits in the marketplace from this.

11   We've gotten into markets we weren't in before.                                     We've

12   maintained markets.                It may cost but there has been

13   benefits.

14                       CAPT. DILERNIA: Okay.                     We have a motion

15   upon         the   screen:      NOAA      fisheries           is    encouraged            to

16   organize a meeting between MSC and several countries

17   to be selected by NOAA to explore explicit recognition

18   of      the      respective     participating             countries'           fishery

19   manager regimes as a whole by MSC.                            Motion was made by

20   Dr. Billy and seconded by Mr. Gilmore.

21                       Discussion - Mr. Kramer?

22                       MR. KRAMER: Yes, I'm not sure I totally

23   understand          the      whole        motion       here         and     while              I

24   sympathize with the industry, I guess I'm not really

25   seeing why this is a MAFAC issue.                             I understand where

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1    you guys are coming from.                      I understand the bind it

2    puts you in out there.                  I think I would kind of fall

3    back to what Mark had mentioned, is that there are

4    some laws in place.               I agree 100% that NOAA fisheries

5    is doing a good job managing fisheries with respect to

6    everything else out there but I see it more -- this is

7    more of an industry thing, an industry impediment that

8    they         need   help   from      Bill      and     company     to     kind         of

9    address -- not necessarily an overall MAFAC thing.

10                       I see the relationship when we're talking

11   about Fish Watch and I would agree that, like Larry

12   said, let's all work on that and let that be the

13   number one game in town.                    It makes more sense to me.

14   Maybe I'm misunderstanding the motion here.

15                       CAPT. DILERNIA: I have discussion list.                                 I

16   have Mr. Rayburn and Dr. Billy.                               Ralph?     And Tom,

17   right after him.

18                       MR. RAYBURN: In our discussion to your

19   point,           I think the idea was really, in my opinion

20   anyway, that the National Marine Fishery Service was

21   the authority and source of information on the status

22   of stocks and the sustainability of those stocks.                                    And

23   the management being the set-up for it.                            If there's a

24   third party out there second guessing, then that's not

25   what we want it to be.                 It's like NMFS says it's right

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1    and we trust that.

2                          It kind of goes back to the discussion I

3    brought up on Monday.                     I was visiting with some of

4    these MSC folks, not at the depth that Jim and others

5    have         worked    with     them,      but    their      comment     was        --

6    because I was pushing to have NMFS be the source of --

7    why can't NMFS, with all the money spent on that, say

8    that this is sustainable and the marketplace accept

9    that sustainability?                  And the comment back from MSC

10   was, well, the public wants a third party to come in

11   and validate the government.                         They don't want the

12   government            grading        themselves       necessarily        on       how

13   effective they are in their management.

14                         Well, that's the position and I raise that

15   at our meeting today as a reason for why MSC thinks

16   there's a field of operation there for them.                           It seems

17     to me such a meeting as this, where you have these

18   countries that have a very robust fishery management

19   program,         need    to     --    I   think     what     was   brought          up

20   earlier, they need to stand up and say this is it.

21   We're doing this and it's good.                      You shouldn't be here

22   second guessing us.

23                         And apparently, you could speak to it --

24   there's a check they have to make in the MSC, whether

25   or not it's being managed or not or properly.                                   That

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1    should be an automatic check if it's a fishery under -

2    - and I think Jim mentioned this in our meeting --

3    automatic checks when they come to that.                             They don't

4    even have to look.              If it's under the management plan,

5    the U.S. is an automatic check that it's being managed

6    because of the robustness of that system.

7                           I think it kind of relates to that and not

8    necessarily just an industry effort, but it's all our

9    efforts just to validate that we're trusting NMFS and

10   if they say it's sustainable in the process then we

11   accept that as our national position.

12                          MR. KRAMER: So do you not then meet with

13   the other organizations that are out there, so-called

14   grading          and    potentially         disagreeing         with      how        our

15   fisheries are managed currently?                          Like anybody else,

16   to me, MAFAC needs to -- we need to look at the whole

17   picture.

18                          MR. CONNELLY: The difference is the other

19   groups           are   just   taking        existing          data   and      making

20   judgments -- they take whatever data they want and

21   make judgment.             MSC, while we understand Bill and his

22   established policy on how they're going to interact

23   with MSC or a like group, they're actually drawing

24   resources.              They're     drawing        stock       assessment          team

25   resource time away from NOAA fisheries in a way that

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1    the other groups aren't.                       That's really what we're

2    after.           It's protective of Bill's resources and his

3    team's resources, in a way.

4                          MR. KRAMER: I guess this may be a legal

5    question then.              At what point can you say we're not

6    going to provide you what you're asking for.

7                          DR. HOGARTH: Well they ask for it -- they

8    could get stuff but they'd have to pay for it.                                    This

9    has been an open process with us, that we just work

10   with them because we felt like it's beneficial to the

11   industry         as    a    whole.        We've spent a lot of time

12   explaining the system and working with the system.                                    It

13   was a lot of time and effort.                      But by the way, we have

14   met with some of the cards.                         I've met with Hewlett-

15   Packard of Monterrey within the last three weeks.                                          I

16   don't know if I got anywhere, but we met.                                We met in

17   my office, and we talked a great deal about it.

18                         CAPT.    DILERNIA:          Okay.          I   have       Ralph

19   Rayburn, Tom Billy, Tom Raftican, and then Laurel.

20                         MR. KRAMER: I'd like to repeat what I just

21   said.

22                         CAPT. DILERNIA: Done.               Tom?

23                         DR.     BILLY:       I      think        there's      another

24   interested party in this and that's the consumer.                                     It

25   seems to me it's in the consumer's interest to not

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1    have         NOAA's    resources       used      in     these     third       party

2    processes if they're not going to recognize the kind

3    of fishery management regimes that are in place are

4    effective.               It     leads         to       misinformation             and

5    misunderstanding.              There are many of us that think

6    consumers should be eating more seafood.                           These kinds

7    of things get in the way of that.                       If there's a way to

8    get broader recognition of the management regimes so

9    that this third party process could be expedited, more

10   efficient, both in terms of NOAA resources and in

11   general, that would be helpful.

12                         CAPT. DILERNIA: Tom Raftican.

13                         MR. RAFTICAN: I think this is -- I want to

14   follow up on what Ralph is saying.                           I think that when

15   you're           -- and I'm asking the question as much as

16   stating a point -- you're essentially saying MSC is

17   going to kind of check the box on NOAA management of

18   fisheries.            I think the people here in the room are

19   comfortable           with NOAA management of fisheries, but we

20   know that when MSC looks at a fishery, they spend

21   about three years looking at it.                       I think the downside

22   of this is we're essentially asking MSC to grade NOAA

23   fisheries.

24                         And what if they go, well you made most of

25   the categories but we'd like you to do this?                                        Or

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1    you're put in a situation -- I think that puts us in a

2    very peculiar situation.                            I would think about that

3    before entering it.                         I'm not sure but it -- if they

4    come to the table and say well, yes, you're managing

5    and most of your fisheries are okay.                                All of a sudden

6    you've got a third party that's this dictating fishery

7    management                 in        the    United       States      and     I'm         not

8    comfortable with that.

9                            CAPT. DILERNIA: Okay.                  One, two, three.

10                           DR. BILLY: I think MSC is already doing

11   the grade and we're asking them to do the opposite.

12   Just cut that out and accept the system.                                        They're

13   going            to    do       it    regardless         so    we're   proposing                a

14   different approach.

15                           CAPT. DILERNIA: Jim and then Steve.

16                           MR. GILMORE: The MSC has three principles

17   and       then        23    criteria         to     meet that and then on a

18   fishery           by       fishery         basis,     they've       developed        these

19   indicators.                 So they come in and they evaluate a

20   fishery all the way from soup to nuts on that fishery.

21     I think what we would avoid is having nitpicking

22   council by council or stock by stock evaluation of the

23   management.

24                           And          say,     look,       your      principles           and

25   criteria are set up for fisheries that are open and

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1    transparent and rigorous regulatory, rigorous appeals

2    process, etc. -- we're the best in the world.                              We want

3    a check mark.             We don't want you coming in on a case

4    by case basis and by management authority.                                      We're

5    going to provide you information as marketers.                               That's

6    what the agency's response is to a reasonable request.

7      Now you can draw the line wherever you need to if

8    they, if it becomes burdensome.                        But they're going to

9    respond to reasonable requests, so the marketplace is

10   going to ask the industry to engage in this program.

11   But what we're saying is just give us the third party,

12   independent validations and these people know how to

13   manage fish.

14                       CAPT. DILERNIA: Steve, then Laurel.

15                       MR.    JONER: I guess, you know what Tom

16   said, back to on Monday when I first brought this up

17   and the discomfort I had with having this third party

18   who's not really accountable to anybody, come in and

19   evaluate our fishery and our management.                              I know at

20   some point I'm going to have to sign, raise my right

21   hand         and   `til   death      do    us     part,       I'll   manage         the

22   fishery the way you've described.                         I don't -- there's

23   no way I want somebody else to.

24                       Frank Lockhart tells me -- good job on

25   managing your fishery -- that's good enough for me.

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1    But I just have a real discomfort, even though MSC is

2    the existing authority for that, of having NMFS be

3    placed under that authority.                           To me that says we're

4    assuming that they're here to stay and they are the

5    game         in    town.        I    think      some      of      us    this       morning

6    expressed a strong interest to have that change and

7    Fish Watch become the game in town.

8                            I know Bill knows what to do and to watch

9    out,         but    I    don't      necessarily         think          it's    the        best

10   approach, to have this third party grade NMFS when we

11   really want NMFS to be the one doing the grading.

12                           CAPT. DILERNIA: Okay.                     Laurel, you had

13   your hand up.

14                           MS.     BRYANT:        I      will        let     the           group

15   interview.              I won't step in.

16                           CAPT. DILERNIA: Mary Beth.

17                           MS. NICKELL-TOOLEY I was recently asked by

18   someone whether or not they thought it was a good idea

19   to      consider         supporting,          starting           the    certification

20   process for a particular fishery and my reply was --

21   under             the     MSC       standards          --        my      reply            was,

22   philosophically when you look at all the fisheries

23   across the nation, I don't particularly agree with

24   their process.                  But the reality truly is that it

25   benefits the marketplace and you probably should do

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1    it.

2                         That doesn't mean that I think -- I wish

3    that particular process was not in place because I

4    think that it benefits fisheries that have money and

5    those that don't lose out.                          I don't think it's an

6    equal access system.                But I also was told that Jim was

7    going to fix that system.                     And maybe he's got John to

8    help him now.              So we can hope for that.                    But I think

9    it is a reality -- it's there.

10                        CAPT. DILERNIA: Okay, I've got Dr. Hogarth

11   and Randy Cates.

12                        DR. HOGARTH: I just wanted to say if MAPAC

13   has some concerns about should we or not do this

14   motion, I will just tell you that after I think, from

15   my perspective, it's something that we should do.                                             I

16   will probably do it regardless.

17                        (General laughter.)

18                        Mainly      because        I    think       it's     something

19   that's just putting a burden on our people and we do

20   have a policy and I think you'd be more effective to

21   get other governments to sit down with us.                              I say that

22   because          I   saw   concern       from       some       MAPAC    members          of

23   whether this is an area you should be in or not.                                       I'm

24   just saying, if it helps I think this discussion has

25   been good.           If you feel like you don't want to do it,

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1    I think we've heard it very clearly that we do need to

2    do it from our perspective because other countries

3    have come to me also, particularly Canada.

4                             Don't take that to say I'm not paying any

5    attention to MAPAC -- I am, but I'm just trying to

6    help you out in the discussion that you've had.

7                             DR. BILLY: Mr. Chairman.

8                             CAPT. DILERNIA: Yes sir.

9                             DR. BILLY: Given the commitment I've just

10   heard            that    this     is    going       to    happen      regardless,                I

11   withdraw the motion.

12                            CAPT. DILERNIA: Does the seconder agree?

13                            MR. GILMORE: Yes, I agree.

14                            CAPT. DILERNIA: Okay, motion is withdrawn.

15     Shucks, I thought we'd pass it and we'd say let the

16   AAs do what we're telling them to do.

17                            DR. HOGARTH: You may just want to put it

18   in the minutes that you discussed the issues.

19                            MS. BRYANT: I'll put it in the notes.                              It

20   will be in the summary report and why.

21                            WB: And we'll report back to MAFAC on the

22   results of the meeting.

23                            CAPT.     DILERNIA: Very good.                     Okay.           We

24   have,            under    the     topic      of     Fish      Watch    we    took         the

25   Rayburn report as received.                            We had our motion that

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1    Dr. Billy made and withdrawn.                   We had discussion.                  Is

2    there anything else on the topic of Fish Watch before

3    we move on?

4                      MR. JONER: I just had a question.                        You're

5    having the roll out in or the announcement in New

6    Orleans.         Will you be at the L.A. seafood show in

7    October?         You already have a booth there.                          And if

8    you're there, I'll be out front of the convention

9    center with a big sign saying go see Bill's booth.

10                     DR. HOGARTH: We plan to be there.

11                     MR. JONER: Okay.

12                     DR. HOGARTH: By the way, I'm a judge in

13   New Orleans        for the show this year.                    I did it last

14   year, just real quick, and by tradition number eleven

15   -- you've got ten more to go.                        And he come at you

16   every ten minutes it seemed like, but that's the way

17   you get them.

18                     CAPT. DILERNIA: Mr. Cates.

19                     MR.   CATES:        I'd      just        like    to    comment

20   regarding Fish Watch.                At least our industry would

21   like it to be the leading authority.                              The industry

22   wants leadership.           But also the consumer -- and this

23   is an issue that hasn't been discussed too much here

24   but was earlier -- I believe the consumer -- we have

25   an obligation to the consumers, to give them factual

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1    information and to take on some of the misinformation.

2      I gave the analysis earlier of some groups say don't

3    eat farmed salmon.              Well when that consumer is making

4    the choice that week whether to eat seafood or not,

5    because of this information, we have an obligation to

6    that consumer to give them the health benefits of why

7    he should or shouldn't.

8                       That's an important issue that I think --

9    the most important thing that Fish Watch can do.                                 It's

10   not         only   just    to      say      that       our      fisheries          are

11   sustainable and healthy but also the reason why you

12   should eat this over another product.

13                      CAPT. DILERNIA: I was distracted for a

14   moment.          I'm sorry.       I heard your point, too.                    Okay,

15   next agenda item.                We have two other agenda items

16   before we get to new business.                       One is 20/20 and the

17   second is the scheduling of our future meetings.                                   I'm

18   not sure how to take these in which order because --

19                      MR. FLETCHER: Why don't we take a break

20   and then you can put them in any order you want?

21                      (General laughter.)

22                      CAPT. DILERNIA: You got a break.                       Fifteen

23   minutes.

24                      CAPT.      DILERNIA:          Why         don't   we     begin?

25   Rather than doing calendar, let's turn out attention

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1    to 20/20.             I said there was a little uncertainty which

2    way we would go, but I think we're best off starting

3    off with 20/20.

4                           Let me tell you, as this is a -- you must

5    all realize this is the first time we've ever met as a

6    group            regarding      this      document.               There     has        been

7    discussions.                 There's      been      some         theoretical         talk.

8    There's been work groups I've met.                                But this is the

9    first time the entire committee has ever met regarding

10   this document.                I think we've made quite a bit of

11   progress.

12                          The    discussion          all      along     has      been         to

13   produce           a   report     that      provides         our     vision       to      the

14   agency.            But there's always been a desire on the part

15   of the agency that we also obtain outside advice,

16   outside in-put as we consider our final report.

17                          The document that we worked on two days

18   ago       has      gotten     quite      long;       it's        about    thirty-plus

19   pages, maybe at this point.                          We've done a number of

20   amendments and it still needs more work.                                  There was a

21   concern regarding posting this document -- delivering

22   this document and posting it for public comment at

23   this point because it's really not done and we're not

24   going to have - there's only so much wordsmithing we

25   can do while sitting around this table.

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1                            The suggestion was made by Dr. Holliday,

2    give him full credit and I think it's a fabulous idea

3    and I hope the committee supports it, that what we

4    post on the web at this point is the 4-pager -- it's

5    two pieces of paper but basically a three and a half

6    pager itself, that sits before you.                                Web content:

7    vision 20/20 -- the future of U.S. marine fisheries.

8                            I would suggest that we take a moment to

9    review it because I am going to ask for a motion and

10   that             it    be    accepted        for      posting     on      the      web.

11   Essentially what this does is it takes our -- it

12   describes the process that we're going through.                                        It

13   takes            the   table     1    from     our      report    which    are       the

14   findings               and     general          recommendations           regarding

15   commercial                  fisheries,           recreational          fisheries,

16   management, and aquaculture -- basically it takes the

17   initial bullet, so to speak, from each of those topics

18   and lists them and asks a series of questions.

19                           The individual who comes to our website --

20   visits our website is encouraged to respond to these

21   questions.              Are they via through the website itself or

22   via snail mail?                  This process that Dr. Holliday has

23   described will let us go out and get public in-put,

24   not restrict individuals' ability to give us advice,

25   and at the same time, our full document we can hold in

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1    reserve as we continue to work on it and revise it.

2                      So that's the plan that I'm suggesting and

3    I'm not sure how we should go about this.                          If there's

4    any suggestions or changes -- should we have a motion

5    to accept this process?             Mr. Raftican?

6                      MR. RAFTICAN: Just one quick change on

7    page 3.          Recreational fishing number 4 -- this was

8    covered yesterday actually in here and recreational

9    fishing experience should replace recreational fishing

10   production,        landings.         Here      it    has    "as    the       prime

11   motivator."        We'd     change         that       to     "as     a       prime

12   motivator."

13                     CAPT. DILERNIA: Yes, and I think there are

14   a couple other changes that should be made because of

15   these --

16   yes, Mark?

17                     DR. HOLLIDAY: Just a point of information.

18     The materials on page 3 and 4 should reflect -- don't

19   currently        reflect    what's        in     the       draft    that         was

20   produced overnight.              So I wrote this up yesterday

21   afternoon while you were working on it.                            The intent

22   would be to substitute the material that would be

23   current based on the working group.

24                     CAPT. DILERNIA: Mary Beth, I also -- I'll

25   ask you to make your point.

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1                          DR. HOLLIDAY: Well, we'll find the actual

2    version that's in the full working document.

3                          MS. NICKELL-TOOLEY It sounds like I don't

4    need to make a motion for changes because he's going

5    to refer back to this.

6                          CAPT. DILERNIA: I just want to make sure

7    that your concerns are -- very good, thank you.                                          Rob

8    Kramer.

9                          MR.    KRAMER:        I    have      a     question        on      the

10   overall            process     here      and      help          me   remember          back

11   eighteen months ago or however long when we started

12   this.            The whole premise of obtaining public in-put on

13   this         --     was     that    our      original            charge     from         the

14   beginning?            Or was this specific document that Bill

15   was looking for from MAFAC as representative of the

16   fishing constituencies out there?                               And if that's not

17   the case as it was, it's always been -- we want to

18   pull public in-put into whatever we create here.                                                I

19   think you're going to get a lot of different opinions

20   from a lot of different angles.                         How you pull all that

21   together           and    we    could       potentially              be   looking          at

22   multiple more months and drafts -- just a process

23   question.

24                         CAPT. DILERNIA: Thank you for asking that

25   question. I sincerely mean that.                           The original charge

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1    from Dr. Hogarth was for MAFAC to produce a report.

2    What he has -- and it will be our report -- what he

3    has asked us to do and he's come back into the room,

4    and he'll add to my response, was that as we are

5    developing our report, we should also be willing to or

6    make             ourselves          available          to      listen       to        other

7    individuals.               Folks on the outside.                     Once we receive

8    that advice, as individuals or we consider it, we

9    could            either    accept       it,      reject        it,   modify       it,       or

10   whatever.            But the report will be a MAFAC report.

11                           Yes, do we open a can of worms so to speak

12   by asking for the public to give us advice?                                      Perhaps,

13   but       we      are     in    a   sense       a    public        body    and    we      are

14   responsible to listen to the public.                                       They're our

15   constituencies                 that    many      of       us   represent.           To      be

16   inclusive, this web process has been designed.                                     In our

17   process of it being inclusive, if we decide to exclude

18   some advice that we get because we just don't agree

19   with it.            We hear it but we say no, we're not going to

20   go with that -- that's our prerogative.

21                           MR. KRAMER: I guess I have two thoughts on

22   that.            One is, I don't know about my colleagues but I

23   have been talking to the industry some about this

24   issue.             I have been getting some feedback from the

25   recreational              constituents              out     there     on    what        they

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1    envision the world to look like in 2020.                            And I hope

2    that I incorporate and have incorporated some of that

3      in some of my comments into this.

4                       And    the      second        thing        is   my      personal

5    philosophy has always been that if you ask for in-put

6    that you should either take it or you should explain

7    why you're not incorporating it.                       Again, that's a two-

8    way street.         Just some thoughts there -- I know this

9    document -- we've been working on it for quite a while

10   and the reality is that the world has changed in the

11   last eighteen to twenty months.                      So it's like shooting

12   at a moving target as we're going along here.

13                      I think some of that I'm already seeing --

14   some of the new in-put from the newer members in here

15   and other things.            I guess I'm just looking for a stop

16   sign at the end of the road here.

17                      CAPT. DILERNIA: Well, let me -- a little

18   bit more of the calendar time line that I hope to be

19   able to follow.               And again, if you review it, we

20   really didn't get started on -- a year ago, we sent

21   our questions out.             Nine months ago, eight months ago,

22   we      received    our    responses,           final        responses        to      our

23   questions to committee members.                              Six months ago a

24   small group met, constrained by budget -- individuals

25   traveled on their own expenses some -- to revise the

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1    initial comments.

2                           There have been a couple of conference

3    calls in those eight months in which things have been

4    discussed.             Revisions have only been made within the

5    past two months.                The writing phase has only been for

6    about six to eight months and we missed a meeting.                                        We

7    also lost a meeting in this process.

8                           While it seems to be a long time since we

9    first            had   the    concept,         as      far       as   producing           is

10   concerned I'm proud of what we've been able to produce

11   so far.           Randy?

12                          MR.    FISHER:         I     really        appreciate            the

13   question, too because I'm concerned a little bit.                                         If

14   we go out and we just sit and we have seen a letter

15   already           show   up     that      was      signed        by   a   number          of

16   organizations not liking aquaculture.                                 Let's pretend

17   like they all get on the bandwagon and have a whole

18   bunch of people sign letters and we come in.                                   Then we

19   get to a point, how do we respond to that when we made

20   a     recommendation            and     this      20/20      document      that's              a

21   device to him about where we think this is going?

22                          I think we're just asking for trouble to

23   some extent.

24                          MR. KRAMER: If I could follow up to Randy,

25   I think it's a good point we're not saying that the

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1    agency should not consider those comments from other

2    diverse groups out there but we as a body can come

3    together here and form consensus around a document

4    that says okay, we are MAFAC and here's our take on

5    life.              And     maybe     take      that,       too.       There's          two

6    different ways to continue forward in this.

7                             DR. HOGARTH: Well, yes this is a MAFAC

8    report which is what we asked for.                               In trying to make

9    sure that, a lot of times, you have the greatest

10   report in the world but the industry, some will say we

11   never            saw    it.     We     never       had     the     opportunity           to

12   comment.               And so we're trying to prevent that.

13                            We could take this as a MAFAC report and

14   send it out and just say MAFAC prepared this and we're

15   just        seeking        additional        comments.            Then   just        take

16   those comments and do what we want to with them or

17   either bring them back to you in December and say,

18   based on the comments we got, here are the broad areas

19   to which we got comments in.                         And here's a suggestion

20   --      are       you     willing     to     incorporate          this   into        your

21   report?            I think the deadline on this, in my opinion,

22   would be the December meeting because that's the next

23   time you get together.

24                            Hopefully we could send it to you -- my

25   goal would be to send it to you way ahead of that,

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1    with         here     are   the      comments         and      here's      what         we

2    recommend.             You can meet all as a group or you could

3    say we accept or we don't.                            We stand behind that

4    report.             I think I'd like to see the industry -- I'd

5    like to at least have an opportunity because those

6    things I've tried to do, I've tried to be real open

7    and let people comment.

8                          But it is a MAFAC report and I think it's

9    a good report, honestly.                    I think it does what we ask

10   for.         I just think we're taking it one step further to

11   say, here is a website -- if you want to comment,

12   comment.             And then we'll take those and come back to

13   you.             I'd rather come back to you with them than just

14   take them and for us to make a decision whether to

15   accept them or not.                     We could give you suggested

16   changes based on that and you could say you don't

17   think that reflects what you all want, but it's still

18   your report.            I want it to be a MAFAC report.

19                         And I want to use it to both direct what

20   we do the rest of our term here, but after elections

21   we'll be asked for transition documents and things

22   like that and I think this will be a good document to

23   use for transition.                You have a new President one way

24   or the other and they always ask for documents and I

25   think this would be a good document to utilize for the

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1    transition team.          That's a couple purposes for it.

2                      CAPT. DILERNIA: Ralph.

3                      MR.    RAYBURN:          I    think        --    so        what            I

4    understand Dr. Hogarth is saying, I wonder if another

5    option to what you'd suggested, Mr. Chairman, would be

6    that you give a certain time for folks to review this

7    document         and    insure      that        the     in-put          that        they

8    submitted        over    the      last         few    days        was     in        fact

9    transcribed into the report.                     When that time expires

10   then the committee that you have established for this

11   report will go through it and make whatever kind of

12   wordsmithing changes and stuff like that you may have.

13                     You might send it out once more for the

14   committee.         Give us time certainly for everybody to

15   come back and if you get a majority of consensus

16   response, forward it to Dr. Hogarth for him through

17   his processes to send it out to his other constituent

18   groups, as whether they be councils or whatever, for

19   further in-put or something like that.                             But I don't

20   think we as a body should be soliciting public in-put

21   at this point, if you follow what I'm saying.

22                     We would be submitting basically -- to

23   shorten it up -- we would be submitting this report to

24   Dr. Hogarth in our advisory role.                           It's up to him to

25   do with it what he wishes.                     If he would like to have

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1    it validated or screened by the councils and others,

2    that's his choice.            We've made our in-put as the

3    councils have made their in-put or anybody else.                         And

4    then if he is gracious enough to come back to us and

5    help us understand what the concerns are that we might

6    have missed, I think that would be a helpful exercise.

7                     Again, that would be up to him and his

8    decisions in managing the fisheries.                    If that makes

9    sense and if it does I --

10                    CAPT. DILERNIA: What you're suggesting is,

11   don't post the two-pager.

12                    MR. FLETCHER: That's correct.

13                    CAPT. DILERNIA: Do not post the two-pager.

14     Take the thirty-pager home.               Get comments back to me

15   inside of two weeks.

16                    DR. BILLY: Set a deadline.

17                    CAPT. DILERNIA: Set a deadline.            Then send

18   this to the agency.

19                    MR. FLETCHER: I think the one other step,

20   Mr. Chairman, if I may, at least in my vision would be

21   if that first whatever review, seven day/fourteen day

22   review, would be by those that made in-put and maybe

23   perhaps folks who had, because we haven't seen this,

24   to vet it out, if there's any significant controversy

25   over any in-put that's been made, then that would be

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1    brought to the attention of the group.                                     But you and

2    your        executive          committee          set    up    for       this      project,

3    would be the final assembler of the document.                                        Perhaps

4    send it out for a final bite of the apple to the folks

5    and maybe not everybody's going to agree but if you

6    get       a      majority,        then      you       send    it     forward          to      the

7    agency.

8                             CAPT. DILERNIA: Tom.

9                             DR.     BILLY:        I      like         the    approach              of

10   providing            this      committee          a    couple       weeks    to        review

11   this,            particularly          the      new      material         that's            been

12   prepared.                We haven't -- some of us haven't seen.

13   Then I think drawing on the executive committee to

14   have a process then to take whatever in-put comes in

15   from          the    committee          and      finalize          this     thirty-page

16   document, whatever length it is.

17                            This two-page document, web content, seems

18   like a nice outline for a Federal Register notice that

19   NOAA fisheries could publish that mentions that there

20   is a document available on a website and what the

21   website             is    and      solicit            public        in-put        as        Bill

22   suggested.               And then once that comment comes in, it

23   could be organized, analyzed in some way by the staff,

24   provided to the committee prior to our next meeting in

25   December.                We could then consider the public in-put

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1    and decide our reaction to it in terms of any changes

2    we      would        make     to    this      document        and    finalize         this

3    document at our next meeting in December, based on

4    that further public in-put.

5                           CAPT. DILERNIA: Dr. Holliday?

6                           DR. HOLLIDAY: I guess a couple points.                                  I

7    think we were trying to take advantage of the fact

8    that exempt status of MAFAC to try to utilize the

9    group to arrive at a consensus of both the committee

10   and other stakeholders and so using you as a venue to

11   get additional comments on your work product, rather

12   than getting it back to us and forcing us into -- then

13   not seeking a consensus from people defeats part of

14   the purpose of having an outside entity provide us

15   this advice in the first place.

16                          At some point it blurs the line between it

17   being            a   MAFAC    outside        third       party      --   pardon         the

18   reference to our previous discussion -- but an outside

19   perspective because we've already done things like

20   this inside.                 Bill explained yesterday how we wanted

21   to try to make sure that we're getting this external

22   perspective.

23                          If I may, just to elaborate on a point

24   that Tony was making earlier about why we're trying to

25   go for the web content and what it meant.                                We weren't

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1    proposing to have the entire document revisited to

2    people.          I wasn't proposing to post the whole thing

3    but        the   general     findings         and     recommendations         were

4    being put out there to test the waters of -- would

5    this be seen by a broader range of constituents as a

6    blueprint for moving forward, but limiting it to those

7    trigger          questions.        The     trigger        questions   keep        it

8    confined to things that may be helpful to MAFAC in

9    concluding your document.

10                       You can take the comments that come in and

11   interpret them as you like and if they support what

12   you're trying to do or they give you new ideas or they

13   just confirm the obvious, they're your comments and

14   they're helpful to you.                     If you have other trigger

15   questions that you think might be useful, you should

16   use them.

17                       So this was a straw man to try to refine a

18   process of broadening -- I know you've all gone back

19   to your organizations and associations and sought in-

20   put to derive at this draft.                           But there are other

21   entities that we thought would be interesting to test

22   the waters to see if there's commonalities or there

23   are differences in how people rank or prioritize or

24   review these different areas in the four themes of

25   commercial recreational management and aquaculture.

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1                        If not, that's fine too, but I think it

2    was -- at the outset in our scope, statement and

3    Vince, if you've had a chance to go back and look at

4    the        August    scoping       document,          but     we     always         had

5    anticipated in the charge to MAFAC that this step or

6    this phase would take place.                      It's not a new request

7    at the eleventh hour.                   I'm just trying to lay out

8    where we were coming from in proposing this idea for

9    getting some additional in-put via the web, rather

10   than a bunch of personal meetings or face to face

11   workshops.

12                       CAPT. DILERNIA: Dr. Billy.

13                       DR.   BILLY:        Nothing         in    the     process              I

14   outlined or the process that a couple other members

15   have outlined changes what the charge is or that in

16   the        end   this     will     be     a    MAFAC         document.            Some

17   uneasiness          has   been       expressed          about       MAFAC       going

18   through the web or any other mechanism, soliciting

19   comment, and instead having the agency do that through

20   readily available process -- Federal Register notice.

21     Using this outline, which is I think a good approach

22   -- it highlights the general findings.                             It poses some

23   useful questions that will be in-put back to MAFAC,

24   not to the agency.                MAFAC will consider that in-put

25   and make whatever changes it deems appropriate to its

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1    document and then submit it to the agency.

2                          It in the end will be a MAFAC document

3    with         public     in-put.            But      you're        helping        us       by

4    soliciting            the    public      comment         through     a     different

5    process than MAFAC posting it on a website.

6                          MS. BRYANT: I think what Mark is saying

7    though is that we can probably use the MAFAC web page

8    that we've established.                      It's a natural place to go

9    but the agency would still be doing it.                              We can do it

10   through a variety of things -- and getting things

11   electronically is always easier.                           Then it's easier to

12   organize and all that, so I think you guys are both

13   saying exactly the same thing.                           Just wanted to point

14   that out.         Agency solicited, but it might be through a

15   variety of doorways or portals.

16                         CAPT. DILERNIA: Ralph.

17                         MR. RAYBURN: I guess I'm a little confused

18   about several things, but we won't go that far.                                           To

19   get to what we heard on Monday was, we can't respond

20   to the public.               If we get response from somebody, we

21   can't send them a letter back.                           We can't say anything

22   because          if     we      do      so       we're          representing            the

23   Administration's              position         --    I    heard     the      guy        say

24   that's totally against -- Your role is to deal with

25   the        administrator         and     the      government        and      not        the

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1    public.           Except in public meetings like this, so we're

2    either sending people letters or we're not sending

3    people letters as MAFAC.                     I think Rob's right and if

4    you ask people to come and give you information, you

5    have         to    make    them      feel      like        their    efforts         are

6    worthwhile          by     thank      you     from       MAFAC.       And       we're

7    prohibited by law from doing that.

8                         MS. BRYANT: No you're not prohibited by

9    law by sending a thank you.                       It would be -- that's a

10   separate issue, really.

11                        MR.   RAYBURN:         That      is       certainly    what           I

12   heard.           Any formal response to the public on behalf of

13   MAFAC is illegal.               That's what I heard him say.                        Any

14   formal response to the public on behalf of MAFAC is

15   illegal.           So either we can do it or we can't do it.

16   But we can't just do it when we want to do it and we

17   can't not do it in public.

18                        CAPT. DILERNIA: Bob Fletcher.

19                        MR. FLETCHER: I just want to say I didn't

20   hear exactly that.                What I heard was what Laurel did

21   in      response      to    the     letter       was      appropriate.            What

22   Laurel did was respond to the letter and say thank you

23   for your in-put.                We appreciate it.                  We'll take it

24   under consideration and MAFAC will receive copies of

25   your comments and that's okay.                        If we're going to put

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1    this on the web and we're going to say tell us what

2    you like, tell us what you don't like, give us some

3    information --

4                     MS. BRYANT: And you're doing it at the

5    behest of the agency.

6                     MR. FLETCHER: And it's coming to MAFAC on

7    behalf of NOAA fisheries.              Laurel can respond to them

8    when they've sent it in and say, got your in-put -- it

9    will be submitted.        It will be considered.         Thank you

10   very much.       That's okay.       We just can't respond to the

11   body of the information provided and say this is good

12   or this is bad or anything like that, but we can,

13   through Laurel say, hey, MAFAC got your in-put.                         We

14   appreciate it.      We'll consider it.

15                    MS. BRYANT: And the way we do FR notices

16   in many instances, right, and with this you create a

17   database of all those that submit comments and then

18   when it's final and you're done, you consider it.                     You

19   send a mass one out saying we've considered it.                   Thank

20   you all for your in-put.                Here is the final thing.

21   Here's a link to it.          I mean, that's generally how we

22   do things.

23                    MS. LOWMAN: But all through it, you'd give

24   us your response for why you did or didn't put in

25   their comments and that's what I think I'm hearing.

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1    That we don't want to get into that.

2                             MS. BRYANT: No.               And I don't think you

3    have to.                It's not an FR notice.

4                             DR.   BILLY:        And      when        Laurel    did        that

5    appropriate                action,          that        was        part      of          the

6    Administration, which she is -- not an advisory unit.

7                             MR. SIMPSON: Takes a one, half a dozen of

8    other to make a decision.

9                             CAPT. DILERNIA: I can make a decision.                                 I

10   just             want     to    make       sure       everyone's           had       their

11   opportunities to express what they feel.                                   I need to

12   hear -- I'm not afraid to make a decision, that's for

13   sure.

14                            MR. FISHER: To me it raises another kind

15   of interesting question to me.                               Since I've been on

16   MAFAC for what -- 230 years now -- looking good - not

17   a day over 227.                I mean we're asked to do something by

18   the Administration.                    We're asked to give comments on

19   what we think is going to happen and you've had a lot

20   of very good people on this committee, and so that's a

21   value.            To me it's -- if you want to ask everybody in

22   the world then go out and ask them, but you've got a

23   certain            number       of      people        that        are     giving         you

24   information, then why do you have to go out and ask

25   everybody else?

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1                            It's almost kind of like an insult to the

2    people around this table, to some degree.                                      Because

3    that's why they're here.                         So I don't know when you

4    shut it off, but it seems like to me a lot of work has

5    gone into it, they did their best shot, and we've all

6    talked to our own people so this seems to me like

7    maybe            it's   over     with      and      we    should     sign      off        or

8    something.

9                            CAPT. DILERNIA: Ralph, did you have your

10   hand up?

11                           MR. RAYBURN: Yes, I did.

12                           CAPT. DILERNIA: Go ahead.

13                           MR. RAYBURN: Were Dr. Holliday and Dr.

14   Hogarth            saying      the     same      thing       or    were    they         two

15   different options?                   I heard Dr. Hogarth say submit it

16   to me and I'll send it out for public.                                And I heard

17   Dr. Holliday             say you all send it out and then give it

18   to me later.

19                           DR. HOGARTH: I think it is a little bit

20   different.              I was trying to take part of the workload.

21     I think what Mark is saying, it's you all's report --

22   do you want us to filter the comments?                              I think that's

23   his point.              It's you all's report.                    Should we filter

24   the comments back to you?                        And I was sort of offering

25   to collate the comments and get them back to you.                                         So

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1    it is a little bit different.

2                          MR. RAYBURN: It doesn't matter -- I just

3    thought --

4                          DR.   HOGARTH: They ought to be seen as

5    filtered comments because it's your report.                             I think

6    it's an excellent report but we don't want to be seen

7    to his point and I agree with you, it's filtering the

8    comments.            If we collate them, is that filtering?                        Do

9    we make a decision on it or just give them back to

10   you?             Say here are the comments we received and let

11   you all do what you want to.                      Knowing that you all are

12   not full time to MAFAC.                  You have other jobs and we're

13   not paying you.               You're doing this graciously for a

14   trip somewhere twice a year.                       But you're taking leave

15   from your other jobs.

16                         CAPT. DILERNIA: I am going to hold off on

17   picking on you then, Vince.                     Rob?

18                         MR. KRAMER: I have two questions, Bill,

19   and maybe that will help me to figure it out.                                    The

20   first one is, what is going to be your primary use for

21   this document?

22                         DR. HOGARTH: It's going to be to guide

23   what I knew were my last how many months I'm here,

24   okay?            And use it to try to talk to the councils and

25   to the Hill and other people about it.                         So it's a sort

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1    of      --       to   try   to    re-direct         this.          We     go    through

2    Magnuson -- it's guidance so we should have official -

3    - and the last thing is, I would like to say give this

4    to the transition team as -- devise your committee,

5    and look at this at what fisheries should be -- to

6    help guide the new people that come in in January

7    2009.

8                          MR. KRAMER: And for those two purposes,

9    you feel that it would be a better tool for you if we

10   had         a     more      formal      process          for      soliciting             and

11   potentially              incorporating             the          general        public's

12   comments?

13                         DR. HOGARTH: Rob, I'm very sensitive I

14   guess, maybe oversensitive to the fact of -- we seem

15   to have a group of constituents that, unless they

16   think they've had a finger in the pie, so to speak,

17   then they don't accept it.                     So I think for you to meet

18   this, I think how we put it out and what we say -- we

19   could say many things that you all submitted.                                              We

20   think it's extra important for guidance.                                  We're just

21   seeking any additional comments that the constituents

22   would like to make and they will be submitted to MAFAC

23   or having them submitted directly to MAFAC.                                       That's

24   the issue here.

25                         Yes, I just think it gives it a broader --

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1    we say broad and how many people really do?                                 I think

2    it's just an additional step I think to make it more

3    accepted.

4                         MR.   KRAMER:        I    guess          my   recommendation

5    would be kind of follow along the lines of what Tom

6    was suggesting.            Give us two weeks with this.                       If you

7    want to post this other thing on the website and

8    Laurel responds back from MAFAC saying thank you very

9    much.            Then we look at whatever comments those are in

10   the December meeting.                I guess that would be thought.

11                        DR. HOGARTH: Here's what I thought would

12   work quick.            By July 15 you all do what you want to

13   with this report.              But we get a final report, a draft

14   final report from MAPAC.                      Sixty days -- August and

15   September it's on the website for sixty days.                                        And

16   then the month of October -- whoever -- we can get

17   Tony and a small group just to sit down one day and go

18   over the comments with Mary Hope and Mark and put them

19   in a form for MAPAC.                  Then November 1st we submit it

20   to all of you for your review so that when you get to

21   the December meeting you've seen all the comments and

22   decided which ones you think are relevant and which

23   are not.            We can still utilize MAFAC as Tony and a

24   small group that's a steering committee or something,

25   that work with Mary Hope and Mark and Laurel and we

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1    just -- so it's still a MAPAC.                      We're not filtering.

2                         MS. BRYANT: And then go to full committee

3    after that in December?

4                         DR. HOGARTH: November 1st it goes to them

5    and then in December it's over with.

6                         MS. BRYANT: It's over with and then we get

7    it published.

8                         DR.   HOGARTH:        We'll       get    it.   We'll        make

9    copies and we'll publish it as a MAFAC report to us.

10                        CAPT. DILERNIA: Good.

11                        DR. HOGARTH: Press release -- we'll do a

12   big press release and everything is good to have this

13   out.         We'll do a press release and send it out.

14                        CAPT. DILERNIA: Ralph.

15                        MR. RAYBURN: Yes, thank you.                    Well then

16   the National Marine Fishery Service will be doing the

17   public comment.

18                        DR. HOGARTH: We would do it with the -- as

19   I say, it's up to you all.                    Do you want to go to your

20   website and the comments come in and then we get with

21   the small group steering committee that Tony and Bill

22   have been working with and Mary Hope and Mark.                                     And

23   take those so that they're not filtered, so they won't

24   be perceived as filtered.                       But put them into some

25   form.            Then submit them to the full -- by November

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1    1st.              So I think it's up to you all.                       Do you

2    want to go to your website, do we set up?                       I think it

3    will probably be better to go to your website and we

4    have a way to get those.

5                      MS. BRYANT: It's NMFS website.

6                      MR. RAYBURN: I think it would be of value

7    it seems for the -- and maybe this is all redundant --

8    for the comments to come in to the NMFS, because there

9    may be stuff we receive that we wouldn't dare put in

10   that report.         And you're never going to see it if we

11   get it and you all never get it.                       And you should get

12   it.        The people are making a response.               You should get

13   it.        Even though it may be off in left field.

14                     DR. HOGARTH: We can always say that MAFAC

15   has asked us to submit this for comment and come back

16   to us and these comments will be sent directly to

17   MAFAC.

18                     MR. RAYBURN: At least you've seen them and

19   we may disregard this.

20                     DR.   HOGARTH:          We're        still   using        that

21   process.         I think I'm getting Mark nervous over here.

22     Tony and somebody, you know whoever this group you

23   all have, to work with Mary Hope and all, like we've

24   been doing.

25                     CAPT. DILERNIA: Okay, so it's agreed then

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1    that the two -pager is being posted.                            Vince?

2                          CAPT.     O'SHEA:         I    wanted        to    see       if          I

3    understand the logic here.                      We're now going to go get

4    public -- run this by the public, get their comments.

5                          CAPT.     DILERNIA:           Just     the      bullet     points

6    that you see there on the two-pager.

7                          CAPT. O'SHEA: And with the potential for

8    those comments to eventually perhaps get incorporated

9    into the document.

10                         CAPT. DILERNIA: Correct.

11                         CAPT. O'SHEA: Then why are we rejecting

12   the comments from the agency of things to put into the

13   document?

14                         CAPT. DILERNIA: Are we?                   Are we rejecting

15   comments from the agency?                    I'm sorry --

16                         CAPT. O'SHEA: I thought the eight point

17   thing that I reviewed -- the strategic thing -- I

18   thought the answer on that was where did these come

19   from?            We've been working on this for two years.                            This

20   is too little too late.                   We can't put this in.

21                         CAPT. DILERNIA: Well, to that point now,

22   what I was going to suggest -- a little bit different

23   than what's being done here -- was to follow the

24   process           that's    been       outlined         by      Dr.     Hogarth         and

25   complete           the     report      that's        in      production        now        by

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1    December.           At that time deliver that report or publish

2    that report and at the same time initiate phase 2.

3    And in phase 2 take the eight points that we received

4    from the agency a couple of months ago -- a few months

5    ago        --     and    initiate        the     development       of    a     second

6    document.

7                            And   that's,        quite      frankly,    when        I     was

8    referencing I was going to come back to you and pick

9    on you, that's where I had planned on going with that

10   -- was to complete the document that's in production -

11   - because that document was initiated and that was

12   being            produced      before         we      received     the       written

13   directives from the agency.                        Complete that -- because

14   I hate to scrap all that work -- complete that by the

15   process that we have that's been described.                              Then once

16   that's delivered, we can initiate another document

17   that addresses what Mark has asked us to do.

18                           CAPT. O'SHEA: Why wouldn't that same logic

19   apply to comments we get from the public?                                 In other

20   words we've already started the document.                           We've put a

21   lot of stuff in the document.                          We're just getting the

22   public things.

23                           CAPT. DILERNIA: It could.                It could.              We

24   could turn around after we saw the comments and say

25   no.

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1                     CAPT. O'SHEA: I mean I'm being facetious

2    because I think it ought to go the other way.                                    If

3    we're going to now open this document up for in-put

4    from the public -- I think there's some good stuff in

5    that piece of paper and I don't think it would be that

6    hard to address some of those issues in the document.

7      You'd get the best of both worlds.                      You'd improve the

8    20/20 vision and you'd come closer to a product that

9    the agency says we'd like some answers and thoughts on

10   this question.

11                    CAPT.     DILERNIA:          If      that's    where          the

12   committee wants to go --

13                    CAPT. O'SHEA: I'm not saying where the

14   committee goes -- that's -- I understood yesterday

15   saying enough is enough -- we're going to get the

16   product out the door.             But if you're going to go the

17   other way and say now we're going to let the public --

18   if we're going to let the public have in-put to the

19   thing, then why can't the agency have in-put to it?

20                    DR.   BILLY:       Point      of     information        --      at

21   least three members here are sitting here wondering

22   what document you're talking about.                       What eight point

23   document?

24                    CAPT. O'SHEA: Tab 8.

25                    CAPT. DILERNIA: Behind tab 8.

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1                      MS. BRYANT: This was the thing that they

2    did in response to the MAFAC's request for written

3    guidance.         We had that kind of discussion in July and

4    everybody was uncertain and off on a different page

5    and that's where this document -- that was the genesis

6    for this.

7                      MR.     DEWEY:        It     wasn't         comments      on          a

8    prepared document.             It was requested guidance on how

9    to proceed.

10                     MS. BRYANT: What does Bill want? Remember

11   there was a lot of confusion at that meeting, so this

12   was what resulted.

13                     MR.    DEWEY: So it wasn't reacting to a

14   draft document.

15                     MS. BRYANT: Yes, there hadn't been a draft

16   yet.

17                     CAPT. DILERNIA: Rob Kramer.

18                     MR. KRAMER: Based upon what Bill just told

19   us on how he intends to use this document, correct me

20   if I'm wrong, Bill -- I would think that you would

21   want just one document.

22                     DR. HOGARTH: Yes, I think --

23                     MR. KRAMER: It's not that you could ignore

24   the        rest   of    the    plan      when       you're      making       these

25   decisions and passing the torch.                            But I would think

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1    that a single document from this group, that not only

2    addresses the things that we've already done but maybe

3    does what Vince says too and incorporates some of

4    these other questions that have been laid out under

5    tab 8 in there, too.                We have some of the answers to

6    some of these.

7                          DR. HOGARTH: Rob -- all of you have not

8    been         involved    in   the     whole      process.         We      provided

9    probably          a     dozen       or     more        documents          to         the

10   subcommittee, the small group that worked on this --

11   background documents that we had prepared.                                And they

12   utilized those in putting this together.                                So that's

13   what the in-put we had was -- documents to let them

14   review through in putting this together.                          That was the

15   in-put we gave, was the white papers we put together

16   basically        on     several     things       that        document      what        we

17   prepared earlier and aiding in the process.                               This was

18   simply for in-put to this subcommittee to put the

19   original document together, is what was intended.

20                         I think we did say -- and in here we talk

21   about one to two pages attached to it, so I don't

22   think, in hindsight, I think this was better to have

23   one document.            This is a very concise document.                          It's

24   probably going to be more effective than having a

25   bunch of attachments to it.                      It's effective to have

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1    the document -- a short, concise document that people

2    will read.

3                         CAPT. DILERNIA: That being the case, what

4    we        have      produced      so      far      has        to    be      modified

5    significantly -- to respond to the questions behind

6    tab 8.           Maybe.

7                         CAPT. O'SHEA: Well, it depends on what

8    level you want to go into.

9                         DR. HOLLIDAY: On the last paragraph under

10   tab 8, it says "The trigger questions were neither

11   required nor exhaustive, but represent the broad scope

12   and level of inquiry desired by NOAA fisheries for

13   MAFAC's effort." So it was an attempt to establish the

14   level -- big picture questions, not in the weeds,

15   cross-sectored,            not     just      fisheries          but      how       would

16   fisheries be affected by other sector uses of the

17   resources.

18                        The   trigger       questions            weren't     point          by

19   point -- have to be included in the MAFAC report.                                        It

20   doesn't say that.                It says they're neither required

21   nor are they exhaustive but it was to give people a

22   sense of -- I've said it already, the big picture view

23   of the future of fisheries.

24                        So    in    response        to     does       it    require              a

25   significant revision to answer those eight questions,

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1    no, that's not what we were asking for but we're

2    asking for an evaluation of those drivers or those

3    trends that you can see and --

4                          DR.   BILLY:       I    think      this    document        does

5    that.            It responds to that.

6                          MR. JONER: Yes, I think we went through

7    this the other day and I remember pointing out a

8    couple things that I wasn't sure was covered and we

9    had that discussion.                   I went through it and in my

10   mind, it's essentially covered.                        Not line by line, but

11   the concepts are covered.

12                         DR. HOLLIDAY: After all it's your product.

13     What were the drivers that you felt were important to

14   understand and report on?

15                         CAPT. DILERNIA: Okay.                    Is your question

16   answered, Vince?                That you asked?

17                         CAPT. O'SHEA: I mean I'm not trying to

18   drive this whole thing.                      I'm trying to line up what

19   the agency's asking for and what we're trying to give

20   them.             I offered yesterday or two days ago to go

21   through this and I have a slightly different view.

22   And I understand and take that we weren't required to

23   answer all these nor were we limited to these.                                But I

24   think these are some really terrific strategic level

25   questions            and    I     think       that       there's     been        some

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1    opportunity as this current paper has evolved to weave

2    some of these strategic questions in that aren't dealt

3    with right now.

4                     I get six and a half of these eight were

5    not addressed in the document as I looked at it a day

6    ago, two days ago.          I defer to -- I'm an advisor here,

7    not a member so I'd be happy to defer to whatever the

8    group would like to do.              But I'm also willing to help

9    facilitate or work, take pen to paper, or whatever, to

10   get something that lines up both with the advice MAFAC

11   wants to give and what the agency is asking for.                               The

12   consensus is -- asked and answered.                       Then that's the

13   consensus.       That's fine.

14                    CAPT. DILERNIA: Mary Beth.

15                    MS.   NICKELL-TOOLEY             The     time   line        that

16   we're talking about currently is for people to take

17   this home, think about it, have --

18                    CAPT. DILERNIA: Thirty-pager.

19                    MS. NICKELL-TOOLEY Right.                   And to think

20   about it and any additional changes we want to have it

21   back in by July 15.                 I just wonder if perhaps a

22   suggestion is that when people, particularly those

23   sections that they are working on, to take a look down

24   through these, and not talking about major changes,

25   but just thinking about               taking these concepts.                   Not

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1    all of them but -- and bringing to what's there.

2                       CAPT. DILERNIA: By July 15.

3                       MS.    NICKELL-TOOLEY              Yes,     any     suggested

4    revisions and strictly only those ones that you think

5    are appropriate for whatever topic it is.                               I hadn't

6    looked at this and then looked at this and now I think

7    I wouldn't mind doing that.

8                       CAPT. DILERNIA: Comments?

9                       CAPT. O'SHEA: One other thing and this is

10   going to probably -- I know how we got here with this

11   document but I know there's concern about the length

12   of this thing now.             You've expressed concern about the

13   length and Dr. Hogarth has as well and I share that

14   concern.         But it just seems to me that, for example,

15   sixteen pounds of fish per person is mentioned four

16   times in this document.                And in a twenty page document

17   -- I just use that as an example.                             I think there's

18   opportunity here to tighten a lot of this up.                              There's

19   a lot of aquaculture here and we have real strong

20   feelings         around   the     table       about      aquaculture.               The

21   point is aquaculture is an emerging issue and it's

22   contentious         and    it's      the     wave      of     the    future         but

23   there's          significant        problems           that     need        to        be

24   addressed.

25                      And then you go from -- in my sense, we've

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1    spent            a   lot    of    time      building         up     to    that      without

2    putting              as    much     time      into       these      eight       strategic

3    things.               So what are you going to do about that?

4    That's one of the things that, in its current state

5    right now, says that I think you could have both, what

6    Mary Beth said -- kind of look at this and then look

7    for opportunities to tighten this thing up.                                       If we're

8    directing it to the agency, a lot of this stuff we

9    don't have to put in there because you guys know it

10   already, I think.

11                             CAPT.       DILERNIA:           Anyone         --      and         I'm

12   encouraging members to respond to the thirty-pager

13   that you have now.                       And to have those comments and

14   those responses in by July 15.

15                             What's going to have to happen then is

16   myself or a group of others, myself and another group

17   are going to have to take all of your all comments

18   that you send to us and try to then weave that in.

19   Because we try to respect the authors' intent and to

20   weave that into the document.

21                             Sometimes         we     may      have         two    different

22   authors from the committee contributing things that

23   are in conflict with each other and you want to,

24   because they're not there to defend or whatever, you

25   try to respect -- well, Vince you were there.                                       You sat

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1    through the process.                    And so we respect the authors'

2    intent as much as possible and try to include and try

3    to edit it down.                    And so that process will occur

4    again.

5                          Bill, when did you want to post it and

6    when did you want it from us?

7                          DR. HOGARTH: What we were saying, sometime

8    first of August, about August 1st.

9                          CAPT. DILERNIA: Okay, so that gives us two

10   weeks, only two weeks after you send it to us.                                       And

11   actually one week because I'm not even in town the

12   last week of July, the first week of August.

13                         DR. HOGARTH: Well at least we can make it

14   simple           a   little     bit,      but     your      goal   would     be      the

15   December meeting to finalize it.

16                         CAPT. DILERNIA: And you want it on the

17   street or you want it -- you want the two-pager posted

18   or the entire document posted before the final one.

19                         DR. HOGARTH: Well I think that depends on

20   what you get as a final document, because Vince has

21   made some good points.                     If he ends up doing that and

22   you all accept it, it will maybe take a little bit

23   different approach than it is now.                               I think after we

24   get the comments you'll have to have some leeway to

25   decide what to publish.                    Personally.

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1                     CAPT. DILERNIA: Okay, Dorothy had her hand

2    up first then I see Jim.            Dorothy?

3                     MS. LOWMAN: Well, I was just wondering

4    where we could send one electronic copy to because it

5    makes it easier to track changes and send them to you.

6                     CAPT. DILERNIA: Mary Hope will send it.

7                     MR. KRAMER: Real quick, just a follow-up

8    on what Vince said.           Maybe a suggestion might be to

9    tighten things up if any of the authors of certain

10   sections feel that it's redundant or not absolutely

11   necessary, if they could voluntarily pull that out to

12   help tighten up the document, that might be a way to

13   get closer to the original target of twenty.

14                    CAPT. DILERNIA: Okay, so what is going to

15   happen is, twenty members are going to send us back

16   the full document.           If you do it, please use your

17   track changes in Word because the woman behind me here

18   is going to be getting twenty separate documents that

19   somehow she's going to have to merge into one.                   We've

20   had some errors already -- you know you look at your

21   screen and you've got twelve boxes at the bottom of

22   your screen.      Twelve different documents trying to pop

23   up, copy, and move over into a master, so it gets to

24   be a bit much.          So please, try to use your track

25   changes so we know where they are.

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1                     We're now down to July 15 to get them to

2    Mary Hope.       We will send you all an electronic version

3    of      this.    You'll      have      something           to   read      on       the

4    airplane going home.           July 15 you'll have your changes

5    to us and we'll have the document done as soon as

6    possible, incorporating all your changes.

7                     Anything else on this?                   All right.

8                     DR. HOGARTH: I just -- I really appreciate

9    what you're doing.            I think it's going in the right

10   direction.         I     hope      you'll         take       time      for         the

11   finalization because I think we're very close.                                   It's

12   just a matter finding the form you want it in.                                            I

13   think to do what I want to do with it, it's getting

14   very close.      But it needs you to finalize.

15                    CAPT.    DILERNIA:          And     also,      to      everyone

16   who's participated in conference calls, has sent stuff

17   to us, people that I've badgered over the phone --

18   "send me things" -- people who have traveled on their

19   own expenses to New York to work on this -- thank you

20   very, very much.           I really appreciate it.                       And I'm

21   sure the product that we produce will be something

22   we'll all be very, very proud of.

23                    Okay, before we get to new business, we

24   have the topic of our next meeting or meetings --

25   dates and locations.           Any suggestions?

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1                          A couple of folks have -- I'll offer this

2    and let you folks decide.                      I'm not lobbying for it at

3    all, but I'll offer it.                     A couple of folks have asked

4    me if we could again have a meeting at Christmastime

5    in December in New York.                    I can arrange for government

6    rate.            Understand that December in New York typically

7    goes for -- Christmastime in New York typically goes

8    for $400-$600 a night, hotel rooms nowadays.                             If we do

9    it after December 16th or the 17th -- whatever that

10   Monday is -- we can get government rate.                              So if you

11   all did want to come to New York at December, I don't

12   know if anyone has a calendar there -- the 17th, okay,

13   so you would meet -- the first day would be December

14   17th.            You would do 17-18-19.

15                         What we could offer you in New York -- I

16   mean, I'd like to go to a nice warm climate in the

17   wintertime,            but   I'll      be     very     happy    to   host       again

18   because we enjoy hosting, my wife and I -- we can

19   offer you a trip to the New Fulton Market which is not

20   in Fulton Street anymore -- it's up in the Bronx.

21                         CAPT. O'SHEA: Can we just check one thing?

22     Check the North Pacific Council.

23                         MS. NICKELL-TOOLEY I think it's earlier.

24                         MR. GILMORE: It's the week of the third.

25                         MS. NICKELL-TOOLEY Yes, okay.

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1                         CAPT. O'SHEA: And then the Mid-Atlantic

2    Council is the following week?

3                         MR. GILMORE: I don't keep track of that

4    one.

5                         MS. NICKELL-TOOLEY Yes, the Mid-Atlantic

6    always meets in December.

7                         CAPT.   O'SHEA: So it would be the week

8    after those two councils meet.

9                         CAPT.   DILERNIA:          Yes.          Again,      I'm        not

10   lobbying for it at all.                      I'm laying it out there

11   because it is a possibility if you want to do that.

12   We could get to New York and we could get you there at

13   Christmastime at government rate.                            So no one can be

14   critical.            There's no junkets or anything involved.

15   It is all government rate.                  It's all on the up and up.

16     Or you want to go to a warmer climate or a different

17   time of year -- I'm happy and fine with any and all of

18   that.            But some members had asked me and I said well

19   sure, if you want to come back to New York, we'd be

20   happy to have you.

21                        MR. CATES: Is warmer above 60 degrees?

22                        MS. NICKELL-TOOLEY Let's go to Randy's.

23                        (General laughter.)

24                        CAPT. DILERNIA: Last time they were there

25   it snowed -- what you had a foot of snow or something

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1    when you folks were there?

2                        DR. HOGARTH: Let me just say -- last year

3    we scheduled to go to New York and there was that

4    problem with budget and not everybody -- we couldn't

5    spend money.          Tony had worked on that meeting and we

6    just had to pull out because we weren't allowed to

7    spend money.          The agency is fine to go wherever you

8    want to go.           New York is fine -- I don't expect any

9    problems going there.                  So if you want to go to New

10   York, it's fine.               If you don't, suggest some other

11   place.

12                       MR. SIMPSON: St. Thomas.

13                       ??: That might have some problems.

14                       DR.    HOGARTH:         I'm      still       responding             to

15   Senator          Colburn    about       2001      MAFAC        meeting       in       St.

16   Thomas, Puerto Rico, wherever the hell it was.

17                       MS. BRYANT: St. Thomas.

18                       DR. HOGARTH: St. Thomas.

19                       MS. BRYANT: We had all the answers but --

20                       CAPT. DILERNIA: Ralph.

21                       MR.    RAYBURN:         Something           like     that,          it

22   probably wouldn't be possible to get the rate on the

23   weekend before, would it?

24                       CAPT. DILERNIA: I don't think -- those are

25   shoppers'         weekends      and     Macy's        is      right    across         the

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1    street.

2                           MR. FLETCHER: We'd be in 34th Street?

3                           CAPT. DILERNIA: Yes, that's the hotel we

4    would use.             It's not a luxury hotel but it's clean,

5    it's         neat,     it's     central,         it's      Midtown,      and       we've

6    worked with it before and they're happy to have us.

7    They give us the government rate.                                Even that week --

8    anything after December 15 typically in New York City

9    shifts down price-wise because folks want to be done

10   with business before December 15.                                 When you do see

11   government groups coming into town at Christmas, it's

12   after December 15.                  So I might -- because the 15th is

13   the Friday -- Saturday?                       I might be able to get the

14   weekend before at government rate.                               I'm not sure.         But

15   I do know that definitely that Sunday night, the 16th

16   we      can      get    that     for      folks       coming       in   town     for          a

17   meeting.

18                          MR.     RAYBURN:          So      Christmas        is       what,

19   Tuesday?

20                          MR. GILMORE: Are we going to get crossways

21   trying to get flights home on Friday?

22                          MS. BRYANT: I think it's -- the earlier

23   the better.

24                          CAPT. DILERNIA: Pete?

25                          MR. LEIPZIG: We had talked at a previous

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1    meeting about New Orleans.                       Recognize the hardship

2    that Bill had gone through and that sort of fell

3    through.            We missed a meeting, but certainly come

4    December, I think it -- for my temperature of blood --

5    tends to begin to satisfy what I'm looking for as

6    opposed to New York.

7    And New York on the Fourth.

8                         MS. LOWMAN: Yes, the 4th of July in New

9    York and your party.

10                        CAPT. DILERNIA: Oh you are all invited.

11   We can meet July 5th, 6th, and 7th if you want in New

12   York.            I'm very happy.       But you are all invited.                      So

13   July of `08 in New York, July 4th.                           What day -- do you

14   have a calendar on you?                    July `08 -- I want to see

15   where we are on that.                July 4th is the Friday.                   Okay,

16   so if you wanted to you could all come in -- do 1,2,3

17   July `08 in New York.                Fine by me.              Last year we had

18   300 people.            We'll probably have around 325.                           With

19   MAFAC we'll have -- we'll go to 400.

20                        DR. HOGARTH: This year, December have it

21   in New Orleans or Tampa.                 If you have it in Tampa, I'm

22   home. Let's see what we can work out in New Orleans.

23   Let's see what we can work out.

24                        MR. RAYBURN: December though, you think?

25                        DR. HOGARTH: December.                    We can use the

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1    same week? Let's just say it will be that week and

2    next week, we all will find out where we can get the

3    best deal or if you can get into either one of them.

4    It's not as easy sometimes getting to New Orleans we

5    found out with the last --

6                       MR. RAYBURN: That would be the week of -

7    early part of July, end of June, early part of July?

8    New York?

9                       CAPT. DILERNIA: It would be July 1, 2, 3

10   or June 30, 1 and 2.             I need July 3rd to get ready.

11                      MR. RAYBURN: You need time to get ready,

12   yes!

13                      CAPT. DILERNIA: So June 30, July 1, and

14   July 2.

15                      MR. FLETCHER: Are we going to be okay?

16   We're not going to get into a budget fiasco, I take

17   it.

18                      DR.   HOGARTH:         Honestly,         they,    with         the

19   politics the way they are and the elections coming up,

20   they'll have a budget in `08.                   I just hope it's a good

21   budget.          The President's budget is a good budget.                                I

22   hope we can get it.

23                      CAPT. DILERNIA: Okay, we have dates and

24   locations.          Very good, folks.                 Do we have any new

25   business for the committee?                  Laurel has some business.

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1                             MS. BRYANT: I'm going to send you guys --

2    I haven't been able to but I will by tomorrow -- I

3    don't know if all of you remember an article written

4    by Boris Worm a year or so ago, regarding the 90% of

5    blah, blah, blah.                   We've been working, Dr. Murawski,

6    Dr. Methot, Galen Tromble, have been working on a

7    response           to     that.          It     got     published       in        Science

8    magazine a couple of days ago, along, as it turns out,

9    with             three     other         articles           from      three            other

10   organizations also taking issue with the science and

11   the assumptions made in that article.                                So I will -- I

12   just wanted to give you that heads up.

13                            Dr. Murawski brought a copy of it to me

14   yesterday and I left it on my dining room table this

15   morning.            I'll send you the link because it's all of

16   the articles, not just that one, and I wanted to call

17   that to your attention because I think this is a group

18   that         should       be    aware      of     those,          particularly           when

19   you're doing the drafting you'll be doing.

20                            CAPT. DILERNIA: It's too bad these reports

21   did       not      receive       the     same      press      that     the      original

22   report received.

23                            MS. BRYANT: We're working hard, but you're

24   right.

25                            DR. HOGARTH: We might do a press release.

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1                            CAPT. DILERNIA: Because they just kill us

2    -- you know it's negative, Bill, when you come up with

3    three other reports that counter it, all of a sudden

4    it gets buried.              It's not our fault.

5                 DR.       HOGARTH:    Really,        I    thought         this       was       an

6    excellent meeting of MAFAC.                      Everybody just got in and

7    worked           and    we   really      went     through            the   issues         and

8    everyone, thank you.                   Because I know all of you are

9    busy and it's been a little bit disorganized since we

10   had the budget thing.                    I'm really impressed with the

11   way everybody worked and thankful for all the people

12   who worked.              We got the issues and we'll keep it up.

13                           We'll make sure that the December meeting

14   has some meaningful things on it.                               If aquaculture, if

15   we can get it through, then we need to talk about

16   regulations and stuff.                   That will still be a topic for

17   us.         Then there will be a lot more on the marine rec

18   stuff that hopefully will be further down the road.

19                           Thanks, I just really want to thank you

20   because I know it's not easy for people to take time

21   out and do it.

22                           CAPT. DILERNIA: Also, as we break up I

23   remind           everyone     if    anyone        wants         to    contribute            to

24   sending a gift over to Ken Roberts' for his mom, see

25   Ralph Rayburn now -- five bucks, whatever, that would

                                        NEAL R. GROSS
                                  COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
                                      1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
     (202) 234-4433                   WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701                www.nealrgross.com
                                                                                119
1    be great.

2                     We   are    adjourned          until    December        17th.

3    Thank you all.

4                     (Whereupon,        at     4:40      P.M.,   the     above-

5    entitled matter concluded.)

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                                 NEAL R. GROSS
                           COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
                               1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
     (202) 234-4433            WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701         www.nealrgross.com