Facilitator's summary201122661749

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					Transportation Improvements for the Donald
Cousens Parkway to Morningside Avenue Link
Amendment to the Environmental Assessment




F a c i l i tat o r ’ s s u m m a r y
Public Consultation Centre
May 11, 2010
Contents
    3       Overview

    5       Part 1: Environmental Assessment

11          Part 2: Traffic Analysis

13          Part 3: Alternatives

17          Roundtable Discussion

38          Additional Comments




2       |   PrePared and FaCilitated by Ogilvie, Ogilvie & COMPany
Overview


Robb Ogilvie: My name is robb Ogilvie and i am the                               do not miss anything. balanced means no one will be
independent Public Facilitator. holly huehn is a planner                         allowed to hog or dominate the discussion; we call them
with me who will be keyboarding live-time the discussions                        air hogs. We have to make sure everyone has a fair
and the presentations. Peter Courchesne is the person                            chance to participate. informed means the process will be
with the cameras, he is our project photographer and we                          based on the facts.
use these pictures to create the summary, and all of you
will get the summary from this session.
                                                                                            The Independent Public Facilitator

                                                                                                                                My role is to make sure the
                                                                                                                                discussions are fair, transparent,
                                                                                                                                balanced and informed.

                                                                                                                                        Fair means everyone will be treated
                                                                                                                                        with respect, their opinions given a
                                                                                                                                        fair hearing.

                                                                                                                                        Transparent means summaries of
                                                                                                                                        these sessions will be published.

                                                                                                                                        Balanced means no one will be
                                                                                                                                        allowed to dominate or hog the
                                                                                                                                        discussion.

                                                                                                                                        Informed means the process will be
                                                                                                                                        based on “facts”.

                                                                                             Independent Public Facilitator                                                              3




             Independent Public Facilitator                                  1


                                                                                 tonight the agenda is, we are going to have presentations
                                                                                 by steve Mota, who is a project manager from york
                                                                                 region, and by Martin scott who is the consultant
                                                                                 manager for the project. then we will open up for a
                                                                                 roundtable discussion, questions and answers. When
                                                                                 we get to that point in the evening, i will ask people to
                                                                                 come to the microphone so that everyone can hear the
  My name is                       Holly Huehn is an      Peter Courtesan,       questions that are asked and the answers that are given.
  Robb Ogilvie and I               urban planner with     Professional
  am the Independent               us who will            Photographer
  Public Facilitator               keyboard a live-time
                                                                                                 Agenda                       Agenda
                                   summary of the
                                   discussions                                                                                7:00 pm    OVERVIEW by the Independent
                                                                                                                                         Public Facilitator, Robb Oglivie

                                                                                                                              7:15 pm    PRESENTATION
                                                                                                                                         Part 1: Environmental Assessment
                                                                                                                                                 Steve Mota, P. Eng.
             Independent Public Facilitator                                  2                                                                   Planning and Development Services Department,
                                                                                                                                                 Infrastructure Planning Branch,
                                                                                                                                                 York Region
                                                                                                                                         Part 2: Traffic Analysis
                                                                                                                                                 Martin Scott,
                                                                                                                                                 Consultant Project Manager,

My role as independent Public Facilitator is to make                                                                                             McCormick Rankin Corporation
                                                                                                                                         Part 3: Alternatives

sure that the discussions tonight, are fair, transparent,                                                                                        Martin Scott,
                                                                                                                                                 Consultant Project Manager,
                                                                                                                                                 McCormick Rankin Corporation
balanced and informed. Fair means everyone will be                                                                                       Part 4: Wrap-up

treated with respect and their opinions given a fair                                                                          8:00 pm ROUND TABLE DISCUSSION

hearing. transparent means you will get summaries,
which are pretty close to verbatim transcripts, so we                                        Independent Public Facilitator                                                              5




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O v E Rv i E w




i would like your permission to use the following                                                        you will also notice right behind Councillor Cho, which
ground rules tonight for the discussion. Participants                                                    i would like to recognize, thank you for coming tonight,
are encouraged to express their personal views and                                                       there is a box and there are a bunch of comment sheets
perspectives of the organization they represent. secondly,                                               there. the region and the consultants encourage you to
people must feel free to express their ideas without fear of                                             fill those out and submit them in the box; those will be
being misquoted outside this event; we are used to being                                                 included in the summary as well.
quoted, as long as it is done fairly and accurately. the
third one, when enough discussion is enough. you know
                                                                                                                   Comment Sheets
how some people will rag the puck or dribble the ball, and
keep going on the topic; i will let them do it twice. When
they go for the third time, i will ask them to move on to
the next topic. i think allowing it twice is fair ball. here is
an important one: dissatisfaction with the conclusions is
not reason enough to keep revisiting the issue. Climate
of respect, all participants must agree to respect the
opinions, positions and legitimacy of other’s roles and
responsibilities. it does not mean you have to agree with
each other all the time, but we respect everyone’s right
to hold the opinion they do, until you can convince them
otherwise. the approach should be one of critiquing the                                                              Independent Public Facilitator                   7



idea, not individuals. a climate of openness, everyone
needs to feel free to express their opinions, concerns
and feelings on the subject matter. the other thing is, i
ask everyone in the room to treat each other as equals,
regardless of the rank or position in their respective
organizations. Can i use these ground rules, is that fair?
anyone object? (there were no objections.)


         I would like your permission to use
         these Discussion Ground Rules
                                                                                                                                                       Let’s Move on to
         ‣ Views and Opinions – Participants are encouraged to express their personal views and
          the perspectives of the organizations they represent.                                                                                       the presentations
         ‣ People must feel free to express their ideas without fear of being misquoted outside of
          the workshop.
         ‣ When Enough Discussion is Enough – Once an issue or problem has been dealt with,
          the issue is closed and should not be reintroduced at subsequent times unless new                          Independent Public Facilitator                   8

          information is tabled that makes a compelling case for the issue to be re-visited.
         ‣ Dissatisfaction with the conclusions is not reason enough to revisit the issue.
         ‣ A Climate of Respect – All participants must agree to respect the opinions, positions
          and legitimacy of each other’s roles and responsibilities. This does not mean they have
          to agree with each other, simply respect each other’s rights to be there and to hold
          different opinions.
         ‣ The approach should be one of critiquing ideas, not individuals.
         ‣ Climate of Openness – All participants must feel free to and be accorded the right
          to openly express and examine personal concerns, feelings, ideas or beliefs on the
          subject matter.
         ‣ Equality – All participants should treat each other as equals, regardless of “Rank” or
          position in their respective organizations.

                   Independent Public Facilitator                                                    6




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Part 1: Environmental Assessment


Steve Mota: good evening everyone and thanks for             years. this road, this arterial road that runs along here,
coming and spending your evening with us. We are             was part of the planning for this development. Part of the
here having a public meeting for an environmental            road is actually already built; this piece here was built as
assessment (ea) that we started many years ago. it is        part of a 9th line or box grove bypass. the remainder
for transportation improvements in the donald Cousens        of this road is planned to built very soon, and part of it
Parkway to Morningside avenue link corridor. this is the     may be under construction right now. the City of toronto
first of two public meetings; one is here in scarborough,    has, south of steeles avenue, an employment area,
the second one, on thursday night, is in the town of         the tapscott employment area, just south of steeles
Markham.                                                     avenue in this area here. the Morningside heights
                                                             Community, which many of you are probably residents
                                                             of, when the Morningside heights Community was
                                                             developed, it included the provision for an arterial road
                                                             connection that comes up to this point, where it meets
                                                             with Oasis boulevard and then the further extension to
             Transportation Improvements for the
                                                             steeles avenue. that further extension, would not only
                 Donald Cousens Parkway to
                  Morningside Avenue Link                    service the Morningside heights Community, but also the
          Amendment to the Environmental Assessment          employment lands. the funny thing about roads, this is
                                                             an interesting point i was making to someone that was
                 Public Consultation Centre                  asking me a question, when you develop lands, when
                   Tuesday, May 11, 2010                     you build these houses, you have to connect the water
                   Thursday, May 13, 2010                    and the sewer before someone can even move in. roads
                                                             are a little bit different and that is probably where a lot of
                                                             the problem lies. roads, you do not need to build before
                                                             building the houses. People come, they move into their
                                                             homes, they do not realize that these arterial roads are
as i mentioned, in 2002, we initiated the ea. the ea is      going to be put in place and they were conditions of
basically, a project where you look at the planning for      approval for the development, but they were. Just the
infrastructure, like roads. you look at alternatives, what   same way, water service or sewer service would be for
the issues are, what problem needs to be solved, what
alternative methods you can use to solve those problems,
what different alignments you can look at. all of that was
done in our original ea in 2002 and was completed in              Background
2005. We were dealing with, in the original ea, putting
                                                                      In 2002, York Region initiated an Individual EA for
together some pieces of planning work that were being                  Transportation Improvements in the Markham
done in the town of Markham and the City of toronto.                   Bypass Corridor south of Highway 407 (now referred
                                                                       to as the Donald Cousens Parkway to Morningside
What i will do is, go over to this map and highlight that.             Avenue Link EA).
Up at the north end, we have an existing road called                  The purpose of the EA is to address existing and
                                                                       future transportation needs between the southeastern
the donald Cousens Parkway, with a partial interchange                 area of the Town of Markham and the northeastern
at highway 407. that road is there today; this partial                 area of the City of Toronto.
                                                                      The original EA Report was completed and submitted
interchange is there. this community, here, the box grove              to the Ministry of the Environment (MOE) for formal
Community, has been developing over the last couple of                 review in December 2005.

years and is expected to be built out in another couple of




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a community. in order for these developments, for these       after we submitted the ea, the Ministry of the
expansions to happen, in Markham, in toronto, and also        environment (MOe) published what is called an ea
now plans in durham, we need services like water, like        review, in 2008. What they found was, the ea that we
sewer, like schools, like community centres. and roads,       had done was technically sound, they were satisfied that
although we love to hate them, are just as essential as       we had shown in a logical and transparent way, why we
those other services. that is why we are here tonight. if     had selected the choice that we had, and that we had
you live in this area, you know it is a substandard road      followed the terms of reference for the ea, and it made
network. it is very discontinuous, the roads are narrow,      sense why we selected the continuous alignment.
the traffic is very heavy. We have to address, not only the
demand that we have there today, but the demand that
we are going to have there 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, as         Background
growth continues, not only employment growth, but also
residential growth.                                                     Following submission of the original EA in December 2005, the
                                                                         Ministry of the Environment (MOE) published an EA Review in
                                                                         January 2008, documenting the results of their technical review
                                                                         of the EA for public comment before making a final decision.
in the original ea that we submitted in 2005, we went
through the alternatives to the undertaking; we went                    The EA Review was generally positive regarding the project.

through a number of alignment options, 9 of them. We                    MOE was satisfied that the EA demonstrated, in a logical and
                                                                         transparent process, why the continuous road alignment was
concluded that what is called the “continuous alignment”                 selected.

was the preferred alignment. that is shown here. it starts              The Review concludes that the MOE legislative requirements
                                                                         had been satisfied confirming that the EA was conducted in
at highway 407/donald Cousens Parkway, comes down                        accordance with the approved Terms of Reference and met the
                                                                         requirements of the Environmental Assessment Act.
along the Canadian Pacific (CP), across 9th line and the
rouge river, underneath the Canadian national (Cn) rail,
to connect to steeles avenue. the Morningside avenue
extension would come up and meet with that road at an
intersection, at a 4-way intersection. that alignment was     they did identify one problem and that was the City
selected as the preferred in the original ea.                 of toronto. although the City was looking to do road
                                                              improvements, transportation improvements to service
                                                              the development in the area, they were not in support
        Background                                            of the alignment that was selected in the ea. they
                                                              identified a preference for what is called a “discontinuous
           The Continuous Alignment was recommended in the   alignment,” which is shown on the board here. the
            original EA and endorsed by Markham Council and
            York Region Council                               MOe told us at the time, you have submitted an ea to
                                                              us, the City of toronto needs to build a road south of
                                                              steeles avenue and they are saying they are not going
                                                              to build this road. MOe is not going to approve an ea for
                                                              a project that is not going to be constructed. go back,
                                                              deal with the City of toronto, find a solution that still deals
                                                              with the traffic problem that everyone agrees is there,
                                                              find a solution that deals with that problem, and find an
                                                              alignment that both york and toronto are satisfied with
                                                              and can be constructed, can be built, and then come
                                                              back to us. that is what we are doing now; we are doing
                                                              an amendment to the original ea. We are not redoing the




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                                                                                     original ea. take into consideration an update of the
                                                                                     existing conditions, the jurisdictional issue with the City of
      Background
                                                                                     toronto, find a project that works for both municipalities
               The City of Toronto:                                                 and can be constructed, and then, update the ea on
                   took a position formally opposing the continuous alignment

                    for the proposed Donald Cousens Parkway to Morningside
                                                                                     that basis.
                    Avenue Link
                   identified a preference for the discontinuous alignment
                                                                                     July 2009 was when the Minster’s order was issued.
                    alternative
                   indicated that they will not be willing proponents for the       We issued a notice of Commencement in december
                    continuous alignment identified in the original EA
               The EA Review identified this as a significant outstanding issue     2009. this says January 2010, i apologize; december
                of Municipal jurisdiction.                                           2009 was the notice of Commencement. since then,
               York Region and Toronto agreed to re-examine the alternative
                road alignments to take into consideration the outstanding           we have updated the alternatives based on the existing
                jurisdictional issue and seek approval of a project that can be
                implemented.                                                         conditions, since 2005. We have done some field survey
                                                                                     work just to make sure that anything that has changed,
                                                                                     we have captured those changes in the amendment.
                                                                                     then we have updated the assessment of the 9
ea, all of the work that was done from 2002 to 2005 is                               alignment alternatives that we looked at originally. the
still valid, it is being updated for a different alignment and                       factors we used, in the evaluation, were socio-economic
that is where we are today.                                                          factors, so things like impacts to businesses, residents.
                                                                                     the cultural environment, if there were any culturally
after the MOe directed us to go and talk to the City of
                                                                                     significant landscapes, other features in the area. the
toronto to find a solution to move ahead, we developed
                                                                                     natural environment, which is a significant feature of this
a work plan for the amendment to the ea, which we have
                                                                                     area, with the rouge Park. any impact to agriculture,
a copy here tonight. the Minister of the environment,
                                                                                     in our case, all of the alignment alternatives are benign
actually, was required to authorize us to amend the ea.
                                                                                     with regard to agriculture. the issue of transportation, so
since the ea was already with the Ministry, it is within his
                                                                                     which one of the 9 alignments best satisfies the needs
jurisdiction, and in order for us to amend that report, we
                                                                                     from the point of view of traffic. then issues of costs, from
needed a Minister’s order, which we did get in July of last
                                                                                     the different alternatives, how much do they cost, can
year, 2009. the ea amendment, that Martin scott will talk
                                                                                     they be implemented, what are the construction issues,
to in great detail after i finish, is to revisit the evaluation
                                                                                     whether you have grade separation with rail lines, that
of the 9 alignment alternatives that we looked at in the
                                                                                     type of thing.


      EA Amendment
                                                                                          Activities to Date
              A detailed work plan was prepared for the amendment to the EA
               process
                                                                                                Notice of Commencement – January 2010
              The work plan was approved by the Minister of the Environment
               on July 2, 2009                                                                  Update alternatives based on existing conditions
                                                                                                Update comparative assessment amongst each
              Through Minister’s Order MO-2009-01, York Region is authorized
               to amend the original EA                                                          of the alternatives identified in the EAR 2005
                                                                                                Evaluation factors include:
              EA Amendment to revisit the evaluation of the nine alignment
               alternatives                                                                          Socio-economic environment
                                                                                                     Cultural environment
              Take into consideration jurisdictional issues and to better reflect                   Natural environment
               the needs of each municipality                                                        Agriculture
              Evaluation to be updated based on latest assessment of                                Transportation
               environmental factors                                                                 Cost / Implementation / Constructability
              EA Amendment commenced July 2009                                                 Identification of technically preferred alternative




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Martin Scott: steve provided a really good background
in terms of the process and the fact that we have spent
                                                                    Update of Existing Conditions
a number of years looking at a number of different
alignments and doing a detailed analysis and evaluation.               Natural Environment
What we are doing now is we are coming back and
                                                                            Field work and agency resource
we are going to talk about the update of those existing                      information - updated in 2009
                                                                             within scoped study area in vicinity
conditions. socio-economic is our land uses, the built                       of Steeles Avenue. (Vegetation,
                                                                             wildlife, fisheries, and SAR)
environment; there are residential impacts, community                       No change in vegetation resources
                                                                             or significance – Butternut (SAR)
impacts. since we did the work in 2005, there have been                      confirmed in local area but well
                                                                             removed from Alternative C
some major changes in the town of the Markham. the
                                                                             No change in wildlife or fisheries
box grove Community has been growing, there has been
                                                                         

                                                                             habitats including related species

building, new homes have been built there and people
have moved into that community. With that, the 9th line
bypass was put in place. in the City of toronto, a lot of
the Morningside heights development has occurred.
                                                               in terms of the natural environment, very important
When we actually started the work in 2002, very little
                                                               with the rouge crossing and the Morningside tributary
of the Morningside heights Community was built, and
                                                               crossing, those are major features. We went out in 2009
i am sure a number of you are new homeowners in the
                                                               and conducted additional fieldwork to determine whether
last 8 years. also, the tapscott employment area is
                                                               there are any major changes in the natural environment
now developing. those are the big changes that have
                                                               since the time the original fieldwork was done. in some
occurred in terms of the socio-economic environment.
                                                               instances, it is how policy has changed since that
everything else that we looked at back in the earlier study,
                                                               time. species at risk has become a more important
up to 2005, have had very few changes.
                                                               consideration when looking at impacts to various
                                                               components of the environment. What we have noted
                                                               was that the butternut tree is now a species at risk and
        Update of Existing Conditions
                                                               anything related to the butternut is considered important
                                                               and has to be flagged. butternut was found, but the
             Land Use – Town of Markham
                  Box Grove Community                         locations of those butternut are far enough away from the
                  9th Line Bypass
                                                               alternatives that we are looking at and considering. Other
             Land Use – City of Toronto                       than that, there is no other major change in terms of the
                  Morningside Heights Community               wildlife, fisheries or vegetation within the study area.
                  Tapscott Employment Area

                                                               Population and employment growth, as a background to
                                                               looking at the traffic. really the big difference between
                                                               what we looked at in 2005 and what we are looking at
                                                               tonight and recommending tonight is the continuous
                                                               versus the discontinuous alignment. We wanted to
                                                               ensure that there was not a level of service (lOs) on
                                                               the road network that would not be achievable, or that
                                                               would not be too onerous, in terms of congestion, in the
                                                               future. We start by looking at population and employment
                                                               growth. the graphs at the bottom are employment and




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                                                                                                                          Planned transit improvements will be key to
      Population and Employment Growth                                                                                    addressing future travel needs
                                                                                                                                                              Metrolinx and York TMP
                            Substantial growth in population and employment is                                                                               proposed transit improvements
                             expected in Northeast Scarborough, Markham and North                                                                             in Markham and Northeast
                                                                                                                                                              Scarborough
                             Pickering (Seaton lands)                                                                                                           Stouffville GO line
                            Population is expected to grow from 321,000 in 2006 to                                                                             New Havelock GO line
                             477,00 by 2031                                                                                                                     New Seaton GO line
                                                                                                                                                                Highway 7 rapidway
                            Jobs are likewise expected to grow from 106,000 to 158,000
                                                                                                                                                                Sheppard East RT
                            500                                                    160
                            450                                                                                                                                 Scarborough RT extension
                                                              Employment ('000s)




                                                                                   140
       Population ('000s)




                            400                                                    120                                                                          407 Transitway
                            350
                                                                                   100
                            300                                                                                                                                 Steeles & Taunton Rd RT
                            250                                                     80
                            200                                                     60                                                                          McCowan Road RT
                            150                                                     40
                            100                                                                                                                                 Scarborough – Malvern RT
                                                                                    20
                             50
                              0                                                      0
                                  2006   2011   2021   2031                              2006   2011   2021   2031




population. you can see the growth from 2006 to 2031,                                                                McCowan road in scarborough. there is a whole bunch
there will be significant growth, and this is within the study                                                       of things that in the next 20 years, under the Metrolinx
area, and the surrounding, broader secondary study area,                                                             plan, will increase the modal split towards transit, in
that there will be significant growth in both population and                                                         addition to, the road network that is out there.
employment.
                                                                                                                     the planned road improvements were all taken into
by 2031, in addition to the road network that you see out                                                            consideration within our original work and were updated
there today, there are a number of other transportation                                                              in our subsequent amendment work, as well as all those
components that will be in the road network. in the                                                                  transit initiatives, which are included within the modelling.
next 20 years, in addition to the existing road network,                                                             the donald Cousens Parkway/Morningside avenue link,
Metrolinx has announced that they will be upgrading the                                                              provides that missing link in the overall plan.
stouffville gO line, so instead of the 3 trains a day it will
increase to all day service. there is the potential by 2031
that there will be the new havelock gO line and that is the
gO line that would make use of the CP rail corridor, which                                                                Background
is the horizontal rail corridor that we show on the plan.
there will be gO service to seaton. seaton is located in                                                                      In 2002, York Region initiated an Individual EA for
                                                                                                                               Transportation Improvements in the Markham
the north part of Pickering will be a major growth area in                                                                     Bypass Corridor south of Highway 407 (now referred
                                                                                                                               to as the Donald Cousens Parkway to Morningside
terms of population and employment. the rapidway on                                                                            Avenue Link EA).
highway 7, an undertaking by york region; parts of it                                                                         The purpose of the EA is to address existing and
are in place today and ultimately it will be operating in its                                                                  future transportation needs between the southeastern
                                                                                                                               area of the Town of Markham and the northeastern
own lanes on highway 7. sheppard east rapid transit                                                                            area of the City of Toronto.
(rt), scarborough rt extension, it could come up to just                                                                      The original EA Report was completed and submitted
                                                                                                                               to the Ministry of the Environment (MOE) for formal
south of the study area. highway 407 transitway, which                                                                         review in December 2005.
is a provincial undertaking. and then, looking at other rt
corridors, including steeles avenue, taunton road and




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Over time the number of trips using transit increases.
this graphic shows that the smaller arrow groups in the
                                                                Transit Volumes and Mode Split
north-south and east-west movement represent transit
trips crossing east west, what we would call a screenline.
We have this screenline around Markham road and an                                      Transit volumes
east-west screenline for the north-south travel of trips                                 and transit share of
                                                                                         trips are expected
across steeles avenue. as expected, you see that as the                                  to greatly increase
rapid transit projects are put in place, there is an increase                            in 2031

in ridership in transit, with a majority of that movement,
east-west, going to the west. What is interesting is the
north-south flow, that it gets close to being equal in terms
of the transit modal split crossing the boundary, either
going southbound or going northbound in the morning.




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Part 2: Traffic Analysis


Our big issue with it being continuous or discontinuous
is really how steeles avenue works. With the continuous
                                                                    Traffic Analysis - 2031
alignment, we would have had the alignment coming
down through Parkview golf Course and then tying in as
one continuous roadway. that is shown schematically
as steeles avenue in the top in 2031. i will talk about
what the little green dots mean in a minute. and then,
we had the discontinuous to look at, which is bringing
the alignment down to 9th line, making use of steeles
avenue and then a connection north-south, which would
be Morningside avenue. in the initial work that we did,
back in 2002 to 2005, we made an assumption that
for steeles avenue to operate properly, we would need
it to be 8 lanes. We would have the 4 lanes donald
Cousens Parkway, 8 lanes steeles avenue and then               would go south. the one intersection that would be close
4-lane Morningside avenue. We took a step back and             to capacity would be the 9th line and steeles avenue
got more detailed traffic information as we just outlined      intersection; it is beyond capacity, being able to operate.
in terms of the steps we took to generate traffic. We          but the other intersections are working reasonably well.
wanted to know the lOs that could be provided east-            these little arrows here represent, at Morningside avenue,
west on steeles avenue. We have Markham road as                the left-turn lane, which would be about a lOs d, so it
an intersection, tapscott road, eastvale drive, donald         is approaching capacity. there would be queuing, you
Cousens Parkway, and this is the continuous alignment,         might have to wait maybe 2 sets of lights to make your
Morningside avenue to the south, and then staines              left turn there. that is based on a 4-lane steeles avenue.
road and 9th line. a green dot and the letter inside the       the City conducted an ea a number of years ago and
dot provides the lOs that would be achieved at that            got approval for a widening of steeles avenue to 4
intersection. Most of the traffic north-south is coming        lanes in this area, but has not implemented it to date.
through here and that intersection is operating at what        We then looked at the 6-lane steeles avenue between
is called a lOs C. you start with lOs a as the best, and       Morningside avenue and donald Cousens Parkway, with
lOs F is the worst. When you get to lOs d or lOs e,            the balance of the section of steeles avenue being 4
you are starting to get close to what we would plan for        lanes. With that configuration and the same traffic that
in terms of the capacity of a roadway or an intersection.      we would have on either the continuous or the 4-lane
by 2031, on the continuous alignment, steeles avenue           steeles avenue, we have intersections that are operating
would operate at a reasonable lOs with the proposed            at a reasonable lOs. they are not at the same level as
growth that the population and employment were                 the continuous, but they are operating at a level that is
forecasting, as well as, all the transit initiatives and the   acceptable, that in 20 years, you would still be able to
transit modal split that was identified. When we look at       travel without too much inconvenience.
steeles avenue as the discontinuous alignment, the first
                                                               in terms of how that looks, in terms of traffic distribution,
one here is as 4 lanes, so you have the donald Cousens
                                                               we have the same 3 scenarios. We have highway 407
Parkway, 9th line coming down to an intersection, and
                                                               at the north, we have steeles avenue here, we have
then crossing over to Morningside avenue and the traffic
                                                               the Morningside avenue connection, we have Markham
                                                               road. it takes the traffic, in terms of the model and




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PA RT 2: T R A f f i C A n A ly s i s




         Traffic Analysis - Distribution                            Traffic Analysis - Conclusions
         2031 AM Peak Hour

                                                                        Additional North-South road capacity will be required in
                                                                         the future even with all planned future road and transit
                                                                         improvements.
                                                                        The Discontinuous alternatives with 4-Lane Steeles
                                                                         Avenue would not provide sufficient capacity for the
                                                                         expected demand.
                                                                        The Discontinuous alternatives with 6-Lane Steeles
                                                                         Avenue provide sufficient capacity for the for the
                                                                         expected demand.
                                                                        The Continuous alternatives perform slightly better than
                                                                         the Discontinuous alternatives with 6-Lane Steeles
                                                                         Avenue, and provide additional capacity for growth
                                                                         beyond the long-term horizon year.




shows the traffic that is making use of the donald              We conclude that there is additional north-south capacity
Cousens Parkway/Morningside avenue link; this is if it          required, based on the plan and future road network, that
is a continuous route. if it is a discontinuous route, and      those improvements are still required. a discontinuous
it is 4 lanes, the traffic pattern is shown on the middle       alternative with a 4-lane steeles avenue would not
graphic and if it is the 6-lane, the traffic pattern is shown   provide sufficient capacity for the expected demand. but
on the right graphic. you can see that the distribution of      a discontinuous alignment with a 6 lane steeles avenue
traffic with continuous or discontinuous is still a volume on   would provide a reasonable lOs. the continuous does
steeles avenue; there is less on steeles avenue between         perform better than the other two, but the discontinuous
Morningside avenue and Markham road, than there is              could be considered a reasonable solution.
with the two discontinuous alignment alternatives.




12   |     PrePared and FaCilitated by Ogilvie, Ogilvie & COMPany
Part 3: Alternatives


Our next step was to update the alternatives. as steve
noted, we had 9 alternatives that we looked in the original
                                                                              Alternatives
ea. they are shown on one of the boards at the back.
but the main updates, based on the existing conditions,                       Section from Highway 407 to Box
we recognize the infill in the communities of box grove                       Grove Bypass common to all
                                                                              alternatives.
and Morningside heights, which would limit some of the
alternatives that were previously in place. there is one
called alternative a6, which is now in a location where                                                                         Alternatives A1, A2,
                                                                                                                                A3a, A3b, A4a, A4b,
there are homes; it is not our intent to go in and remove                                                                       A5, A6, C1 and C2.
those homes at this time. We have also identified a new
discontinuous alignment; this is the one that would be
a 6-lane steeles avenue. We have identified it in the
documentation as alternative C2. it would have the 6
lanes and it would have at grade crossings of the CP rail
at 9th line, steeles avenue and the crossing that would
                                                                         now we are at the point where we would want to do a
be north of Mcnicoll avenue.
                                                                         comparative assessment. that comparative assessment
                                                                         really looks at the differences between those various
     Update Alternatives                                                 alternatives and the effects that would be on the
                                                                         environment. We basically went through it, in terms
         Key updates since 2005 EAR:                                    of social, natural, cultural, transportation and cost. i
               Arterial road between Box Grove Bypass and 9th Line
                                                                         am going to summarize there. this information will be
           

               constructed
              Box Grove Community construction                          available on the website, it is on the comment sheets, but
              Morningside Heights Community construction
              Natural environment reassessment / update                 it is the http://www.dcptomorningsidelink.ca/. essentially,
         New Discontinuous Alignment (Alternative C2)                   C2 has the least impact to the adjacent properties for
               Widening of Steeles Avenue – 6 lanes
                                                                         socio-economic, as it generally follows the rights-of-
           

              At grade CP crossing on at 9th Line, Steeles Avenue and

           
               north of McNicoll Avenue
               Steeles Avenue widening minor shift at Morningside
                                                                         way of 9th line and steeles avenue, it would be on the
               Tributary                                                 alignment that has been identified by the City for a future
                                                                         Morningside avenue. it provides access to the tapscott
                                                                         employment area.



graphically, this was the group of alternatives that we are                   Comparative Assessment
going back to look at. these are all the same in terms
                                                                                   Socio-Economic Environment
of what we had as alignment alternatives developed in                                   Alternatives A4a, A4b and A6 would have significant
2005. With that one exception, C2, how it changes is                                     property impact as the construction of the Box Grove
                                                                                         Community and the Morningside Heights Community
that it is a 6 lane steeles avenue, where the C1 previously                              have proceeded.
would have been a 8-lane steeles avenue.                                                Construction of the Box Grove and Morningside
                                                                                         Heights Community have proceeded since Alternatives
                                                                                         A4a, A4b and A6 were not the recommended
                                                                                         alternative in the 2005 EA.
                                                                                        Alternative C2 has least impact to adjacent properties
                                                                                         as it generally follows the existing rights-of-way of 9th
                                                                                         Line and Steeles Avenue and has been protected in
                                                                                         plans of subdivision for the Box Grove Planning Area
                                                                                         and Tapscott Employment Area.




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in terms of the cultural environment, there are no major                          in terms of agriculture, when we initially started the
changes from the 2005 ea. Cultural, is archeology, if there                       project, we did not know whether we would be on the
are any historical issues and the cultural landscapes,                            southeast side of the railway and that southeast side in
which would be the built environment, and your vista as                           here is all sort of open space.
you drive along. so you might see a bridge. because we
are maintaining most of the existing road network and
making use of that road network, there are no changes                                  Comparative Assessment
there. in terms of the natural environment, we based it on
the site visits that we did last year; there is no change in                                 Agriculture
                                                                                                   All alternatives ranked the same
the vegetation, resources, or significance in the changes.
                                                                                               




Previously, there was a concern with the 8 lanes crossing
                                                                                             Transportation / Constructability
the rouge river and the Morningside tributary, but as                                             All alternatives provide sufficient capacity for expected
we have narrowed that down to a 6-lane steeles avenue,                                             demand

there is a narrower impact in terms of what the footprint
would be. We are working with the toronto region
Conservation authority (trCa) to mitigate what will go
on there. We are looking at alternatives to the structure
crossings that will be in place. in terms of the natural
environment, either of a3a, a4b or C2 is preferred. that
includes the new alignment and alternative C2 would not
                                                                                  Comment: i realize you are probably taking questions
introduce any new water crossings, where the other two
                                                                                  later, but i find some of this confusing. you just identified
would of introduced them.
                                                                                  a3a and a4b and i have no memory as to what they
                                                                                  were. that is why i find the presentation not quite as
         Comparative Assessment                                                   useful as i would have liked. i find the words you are
                                                                                  using, from my background, i can understand them, i
            Cultural Environment                                                 have a planning background, i am not sure many people
                  No major changes from 2005 EAR
                                                                                  here would. i find that most of the information you are
              

                 Alternatives A4a and A4b have least impacts to cultural
                  landscape and built heritage features
                                                                                  presenting, perhaps not with any mal intent, is not useful
            Natural Environment                                                  for us because it is not speaking to something we can
                  Update based on natural environment site visit in 2009
                                                                                  memorize as you are going from screen to screen. i am
              

                 No change in vegetation resources or significance
                 No change in wildlife or fisheries habitats including related
                  species                                                         wondering if there is an alternative way, referencing the
                 Alternatives A3a, A4b and C2 preferred                          things that you are talking about.
                 Alternative C2 would not introduce any new water crossings
                  of the Rouge River and Morningside Tributary
                                                                                  M. Scott: thank you. any of the “a” alternatives that are
                                                                                  listed here would have been any of the alternatives that
                                                                                  were continuous alternatives. they vary in terms of where
                                                                                  they would have crossed Parkview golf Course. this
                                                                                  one, being south of the railway, and the real difference
                                                                                  that we are talking about, at this point, is the difference
                                                                                  between the continuous and the discontinuous alignment
                                                                                  alternatives. anything that is an “a” alternative would
                                                                                  have been a continuous alternative and any of the “C”
                                                                                  alternatives, are the discontinuous alternatives. i do not




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PA RT 3: A lT E R n AT i v E s




know if that helps. We do have the original boards from         indicated their support for a discontinuous alignment, in
2005 that we could look at if you wanted to look at those.      principle, prior to the amendment being initiated. in terms
i am going to try to summarize it and maybe at that point,      of the implementation, we have added that and that
if we want to go into more detail, we can bring those           certainly favours the discontinuous alignment alternatives.
boards up.

Comment: One question is, the impact that is going to                Comparative Assessment
happen to the people living around this area. i am not
interested at all in the environment studies because that                  Cost / Implementation / Constructability
is someone else’s problem, not ours. We want the impact                         Alternative C2 lowest cost relative to other alternatives.
                                                                                 Markham has secured approval for the Town Arterial
that is going to happen to our community, all the traffic
                                                                             

                                                                                 Road north of Box Grove Bypass to Highway 407
coming down along Morningside avenue extension, right                            through Planning Act approvals.
                                                                                 City of Toronto has identified opposition for alignments
through this area, blocking up our sheppard avenue and
                                                                             

                                                                                 A1 through A6
Morningside avenue because that is the whole idea. you                          Construction of Alternative C2 mostly within designated
                                                                                 and planned/protected rights-of-way
are connecting highway 407 to Morningside avenue, that                          City of Toronto protected corridor through Tapscott
is what we will add use to. dump all that traffic, instead                       Employment Area

of using Markham road, which is now, you cannot use it,
you are going to bring it all the way back west, all the way
down along Morningside avenue into a totally residential
area. that is what we are all worried about, not all the
environmental things that you are talking about. Why can        We have tried to summarize the evaluation. We recognize
we not come down steeles avenue?                                it is very difficult in a short presentation to go through it
                                                                in absolute detail. What we tried to do is to list, and that
R. Ogilvie: i really need to interrupt, with your permission,   board is down on the boards on the side, we have the
please.                                                         alignment alternatives across the top. this is alignment
Comment: that is fine. i made my point. thank you.              C2, a3b is this alignment alternative, which was the
                                                                previously recommended and that was up on an earlier
R. Ogilvie: but i invite you, as soon as Martin finishes,       slide, again, that we could go back to. alternatives that
come on back in to the discussion when we get to the            were considered to be best for the various groupings,
roundtable. We have your point, it is recorded but if you
want to add to it, please do so.
                                                                     Summary of Alternative Evaluation
M. Scott: Just in terms of completing the comparative
analysis, all alternatives would provide a sufficient
capacity to meet the demand in the entire study area in
the future.

implementation was a new factor that we added in the
amendment and steve touched on this a little bit. With
what was proposed, in terms of a continuous alignment
that was recommended back in 2005, the City of toronto
objected to that. the MOe identified that implementation
of a continuous alignment would be near impossible,
south of steeles avenue, whereas, the City of toronto




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PA RT 3: A lT E R n AT i v E s




and these are the groupings down here, so, socio-                          referring to the “technically Preferred alternative” slide,
economic, cultural environment, natural environment,                       that is the C2 and that is the alignment, the same as
agriculture, transportation and cost. those alternatives                   what we have shown there. i have really just talked about
were considered to be best for their impact on the                         those two.
environment. you can notice with agriculture, as steve
said, it was moot; therefore, there was not something
that was considered better or worse. the alternatives that                      Technically Preferred Alternative
are considered to be second, sort of the next ranking,
in terms of best or second best, were the ones that are                                                    Alternative C2
shown in blue.

Our conclusion is that the alternative C2 would be the
alternative that we have identified now as technically
preferred. that is what we can see on the board where
it is a discontinuous alignment. it comes south through
the box grove Community, adjacent to the CP rail, down
to 9th line, steeles avenue, makes use of the existing
roadway that is there today, with an approved 4 lane
widening, and we are proposing it be a 6-lane widening,
between the future Morningside avenue and 9th line.
Previous concerns raised by the public were that it would                  Our next steps then would be to review the comments
draw traffic down into Morningside heights, but that has                   that we receive tonight and on thursday, incorporate
been moved away to a planned roadway in the future.                        them into the amendment. We would then prepare the
                                                                           amended ea report; we would be looking to do that
                                                                           through the early summer and then ultimately, we would
         Technically Preferred Alternative                                 submit the amended report to the MOe for review.

             Alternative C2
                  Section from Highway 407 to 9th Line uses road
                   corridor protected within the Box Grove Development
                   Area and is common to all alternatives.
                                                                                Next Steps
                  Uses existing 9th Line right-of-way between the CP at
                   grade crossing and Steeles Avenue.
                  Steeles Avenue widen from 4 to 6 lanes between 9th
                   Line and the Morningside Avenue Extension (assume 4            •   Review the comments received and         May 2010
                   lane Steeles Avenue base case to service demand to                 respond to any questions from Public
                   Durham boundary).                                                  Consultation Centres
                  Alignment extends south of Steeles Avenue within the           •   Incorporate any revisions and finalize   May / June 2010
                   corridor protected by Toronto through the Tapscott
                   Employment Area, and connects with the Morningside                 the preliminary design plans for
                   Avenue / McNicoll Avenue intersection.                             Alternative C2 (the Technically
                                                                                      Preferred Alternative)
                                                                                  •   Prepare the Amended EA Report            June/July 2010
                                                                                  •   Submit Amended EA Report to the          August 2010
                                                                                      Ministry of the Environment for review




16   |    PrePared and FaCilitated by Ogilvie, Ogilvie & COMPany
Roundtable Discussion


R. Ogilvie: Councillor Cho, did you want to start off the        would also like to talk about the issue of growth. it is not
session please.                                                  a Markham growth story. Markham is growing, durham
                                                                 is growing, toronto is growing and the growth in every
Councillor Cho: i will start my question by asking, why          municipality is mandated by the Province through Places
did you call this a transportation improvement, instead          to grow. it is not specific to Markham. toronto City
of transportation future plan? it may be improvement for         Council told us that they objected to the continuous
york region, but it is going to be definitely transportation     alignment, but they preferred the discontinuous, which
disaster. What made you think that we could accept               is what we are out here talking about tonight, which is
that this is transportation improvement? that is the one         what we are recommending. toronto City Council did
question. the second question is, i do not care whether          not tell us that they did not want the roads improved in
you call it the Markham bypass or donald Cousens                 this boundary area. it is in the conditions of approval for
Parkway, but why do you use “Morningside avenue link”,           development in Morningside heights and for the tapscott
especially when City Council, toronto City Council, made         employment area; it is in the toronto Official Plan. What
it very clear, at least twice, we are strongly opposed to        they have told us is they were not satisfied with the
having these 27,000 vehicles coming to our area and the          original alignment in the ea, that they wanted us to find
City of toronto. not just this area, but Malvern too. but        another alignment that was more advantageous to them,
when i read this, why is it a parkway to the Morningside         that they could implement it through the planning process
avenue link? that is the second question. third question         or you can implement it through the planning process. it
is, this is such an important meeting, i am the local            could be cheaper for the City of toronto, but still provide
councillor, we have been opposed to this thing for a long        arterial road service for the growth south of steeles
time, at least a couple of years, you did not even ask           avenue. i am hoping that answered all 4 questions.
me when is the best time for me and for our community.
today we have a very important City of toronto council           Councillor Cho: i am sure that a lot of people have all
meeting, why did you choose today? Why such short                kinds of questions, so i do not want to dominate, like you
notice? is this how you carry out the assessment and ea          said, i like this balanced approach, but toward the end,
report, and that is okay? i would like to get the answers        i will make my little saying. i would like to ask how many
for all these 4 questions. Finally, what is the public transit   people want this Markham bypass/donald Cousens
plan Markham has, instead of the havelock gO train?              Parkway coming into this area, so that you know where
there is nothing in your presentation what you have              we stand. i am not going to continue to ask a question.
done. When we look at highway 401 in the morning, from
                                                                 S. Mota: i will deal with that issue as well because it
highway 2 to the don valley Parkway, at least from 7:00
                                                                 is not a popularity contest we are out here for. We are
to 9:30 or 10:00 a.m., it is a parking lot. you are going to
                                                                 in an unfortunate position where we have to come and
add another 27,000 cars and then box grove will grow,
                                                                 break the news to people that have already moved into
the number will grow. this is how Markham and york
                                                                 subdivisions, when the conditions of approval for those
region plan the transportation. When we have this terrible
                                                                 subdivisions to be built, included the requirement for
global warming and climate change, one day winter,
                                                                 essential services, including arterial road connections and
the following day summer, is what we experience right
                                                                 improvements to other arterial roads. it is not a popularity
now. What kind of plan is this? i would like to get all the
                                                                 contest; we do not expect that we are going to be loved
answers from you.
                                                                 by coming out here, but we are out here trying to provide
S. Mota: number one, Councillor Cho, we are pleased              a service to the growth in toronto, in Markham and in
that you could make it. if this was inconvenient for you,        durham region.
we apologize. but we are happy that you are here. i




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R O u n D TA b l E D i s C u s s i O n




Councillor Cho: i would like to make a correction, i am        you say donald Cousens Parkway, instead of coming to
not here to make a popularity contest either. you did          Morningside avenue, you can go a little bit east of here,
not answer my question, what is york region’s public           like Meadowvale road. Why do you choose this place to
transit plan so that you do not send the 27,000 cars here.     come through our neighbourhood, it is so crowded, there
you did not answer my question, when highway 401 is            are so many houses here and the way you put it, it is not
already a parking lot during rush hour, you do not mention     a popularity contest, i do not agree with you.
that they just keep shoving the cars here.
                                                               S. Mota: i understand your point of view. but you
S. Mota: that was one of the four questions i did              mentioned that this road was never envisioned as part of
forget and i apologize. i did not mean to say it is a          the plans for Morningside heights and there you are not
popularity contest for us or for you, it is for the road; is   correct. an arterial road connection from Morningside
not a popularity contest for which alignment is best or        avenue to steeles avenue was always a condition of
whether we do road improvements or not. these are              approval for those plans of subdivision. that secondary
tough decisions; there are no easy answers. We are out         plan would not have been approved without the essential
here to discuss it, to talk to the public about it. We do      services being planned for this community and that
not expect that everyone is going to be in favour of it.       includes roads. the unfortunate part is the roads were
but it is the type of service that we need to put in place     not put in before the community; they are now being put
in order for growth to happen in an orderly fashion. if we     in after. but those conditions were put in place to allow
drive these roads today during the peak periods, if you        the development to proceed in an orderly fashion and this
are on steeles avenue, if you are on Markham road, if          road was always envisioned, not only in the secondary
you are on tapscott road, Passmore avenue, the roads           plan, but the toronto Official Plan.
now are so congested and bottlenecked, that they are
                                                               R. Ogilvie: i think her point was that no one had told
a safety problem. if you have an emergency incident in
                                                               them previously.
a subdivision, where you need to get an ambulance or
a fire truck, i cannot imagine how those fire trucks or        S. Mota: i am out here now talking to them and we
those ambulances are getting around on these roads             have been out here talking since 2002 about the road
as they are today. the road improvements are essential,        connections in this area, about doing road improvements
they need to be put in place and they are actually past        in this area. When they bought their houses, i do not
due; they should have been put in place at the time            know, when you go into a sales trailer and you are looking
the development was happening, rather than after the           at a subdivision plan, you get a subdivision agreement
development, which is why we are here breaking bad             from a lawyer that may have 150 pages with a lot of
news to you now.                                               conditions in there. i can imagine most people do not
                                                               read those.
Comment: you are talking about popularity. We do
not want the highway to come through the subdivision           R. Ogilvie: i think your point is that from the regional
because when we bought these houses, it was never              planning perspective, that was always part of the
mentioned, no one mentioned that we are going to               scheme.
have a highway going through our neighbourhood.
you can go from other places, like a little bit farther, it    S. Mota: Correct.
is not so crowded as here. because here, there are so
                                                               R. Ogilvie: but it does not make it easier for you in terms
many cars coming through our neighbourhood, it is
                                                               of what your concerns are, so we hear that.
going to divide our property, there is going to be a lot
of noise and it is terrible for us. you can go a little bit,




18    |   PrePared and FaCilitated by Ogilvie, Ogilvie & COMPany
R O u n D TA b l E D i s C u s s i O n




Comment: My point is this, when you come down east                at the zoo, and it will not be extended further north that i
to steeles avenue, why are you going west instead of              can see. that is because of policies that the Province of
going east on steeles avenue all the way to Meadowvale            Ontario has put in place for the rouge Park. it is a good
road. Meadowvale road has no residential areas all the            idea; the planning was there many, many years ago.
way from steeles avenue down to sheppard avenue. it
                                                                  Comment: i know you have a tough go of it tonight, but
is the toronto Zoo, if you know the road, it is nice, they
                                                                  honestly, i could see you are going to go ahead with this
can expand it and it takes you directly into highway 401.
                                                                  already. What everyone here is worried about are their
you are getting all this traffic going down Morningside
                                                                  property values, traffic and congestion. if you are going
avenue, which is already a mess between sheppard
                                                                  to do this route, i would say you would have to go with
avenue and highway 401. With all this traffic coming
                                                                  model a, a throughway because you are going to make
there, we are serving highway 407 for what? it is a private
                                                                  steeles avenue back up; that little jog is going to be a
highway, why are we going through all this and putting all
                                                                  bottleneck on steeles avenue, no matter if you make it 8
this stuff, steeles avenue, itself, is going to be a mess. i
                                                                  lanes or 6 lanes. People coming from scarborough, going
do not understand, you call it a “parkway,” actually it is
                                                                  to Markham, or people coming from durham going to
a parking lot. Just take the don valley Parkway, it is not
                                                                  scarborough, they are going to all make a left on steeles
a highway. all this traffic is just going through all these
                                                                  avenue and you already have the models of the growth.
residential areas, that is your plan, and it is not going to
                                                                  they are going to make a left on steeles avenue, you are
change. because you are going to do what you are going
                                                                  going to get traffic congestion and you are going to get
to do because you have gone through this whole thing,
                                                                  pollution. if it is not a throughway, it has to go straight
the money has been put in it and it is going to happen
                                                                  through from donald Cousens Parkway straight to
the way it is going to happen. We, living in this area, and
                                                                  Morningside avenue, it has to do that or else you cannot
i have been in this area a long time, my daughter has a
                                                                  do it because it is going to back up on steeles avenue.
place here, and i have seen and i know what we bought
                                                                  People are going to go through staines road, they are
when we bought it a long time ago, nothing of this was
                                                                  going to go through seasons drive, they are going to go
ever, ever said that this was going to happen and it is
                                                                  through Oasis boulevard, there are going to be cars right
wrong.
                                                                  on their front door if it is not a throughway. because when
S. Mota: thank you for your comments. Martin
mentioned the traffic flow that is coming, not only north
south, but from south to north. it is not only expected to
go down Morningside avenue. a lot of the traffic is going
to Markham road, to the employment area that is in
this area. some of it, a little bit, is turning to go east into
durham region. the comment was about Meadowvale
road, we did look at the Meadowvale road corridor early
on in the ea, back in 2002/03. it was made clear to us by
the Province of Ontario that their policy was no new roads
within the rouge Park. no new roads, so, Meadowvale
road would not be extended to steeles avenue; that was
very clearly articulated to us. We appreciate your point of
view. the planning, many years ago, was obviously being
done to carry that road further because it stops right there




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you wait in that line-up, like the person said, they think it       everything, they connect it and you have a throughway.
is going to be a 2-minute wait, which is not going to be
                                                                    S. Mota: Of all the alignments that we looked at,
the case. it is going to be more like a 15–minute wait. no
                                                                    alignments that parallel the CP rail were certainly part
one is going to want to wait in that line, they are going to
                                                                    of the original ea. the City of toronto was very clear on
go straight through, cut through the neighbourhood to
                                                                    which one was their preferred alignment. they did fight
get to Morningside avenue, if they have to make that jog.
                                                                    hard for the residents of Morningside heights, it may not
if you are going to do it, make it go straight through the
                                                                    seem that way tonight. an alignment that would of run on
golf club there and come straight, straight. this way it is
                                                                    the east side of the CP rail line...
just a traffic light and you go straight through. that way,
traffic, at least, will flow and it will just flow on Morningside   Comment: On the other side though.
avenue, not through their neighbourhood, not through
the houses and such. if you are going to do it, you would           S. Mota: there was one protected on this side of the
have to make it straight or else that jog will not work. it         rail line, you can see with this line here. in the plans of
is going to congest traffic, the pollution from the exhaust         subdivision, those houses were not built, they were held
and cars idling. People are going to say, i do not want             back to protect that corridor. the City of toronto staff
to live here, look at this jog we have to do on steeles             fought very hard for the residents to get a road link that
avenue, let me just cut through. they are going to come             would be the least intrusive for this community, plus
through the neighbourhood; people’s property values are             service the growth that was already taking place, and the
going to drop. that is my suggestion, if you are going to           future employment growth in tapscott. it is a very fine
do it, make it straight, do it right now, do it properly the        balancing act that we have to play to find an alignment
first time or else you are going to do it 20 years later when       that is not going to satisfy everyone, but is going to be the
this place is a whole parking lot.                                  best solution.

S. Mota: thank you, we appreciate your comment. We                  Comment: so right now this meeting is just talking
appreciate your support for the continuous alignment                about the “C,” the discontinuous, that is what is going to
and we pursued that for many years; we were frustrated              happen, you are saying?
for many years, pursuing the continuous alignment.
                                                                    S. Mota: We are recommending this, what is called the
it was clear to us that it would never be built by the
                                                                    discontinuous alignment.
City of toronto, south of steeles avenue, following
the continuous alignment. We appreciate it is the best              Comment: if you do that, there are going to be many
transportation solution, to have a continuous road, as              cars in this neighbourhood, right here because no one is
opposed to a jog.                                                   going to wait that long to go on Morningside avenue, they
                                                                    are going to cut through this neighbourhood all the time.
Comment: instead of coming out there, all you have
to do is come up along the train tracks. in all the model           S. Mota: From our traffic analysis, we are seeing about
as, you have 6 different model a destinations of how it             half of the cars…
could connect and if you are going to do it you might as
well come up along the train tracks and have the donald             Comment: that is going to go on staines road, there
Cousens Parkway come down across the train tracks and               is going to be a lot more than half. if he is talking 27,000
connect there. you are going to come out above tapscott             cars, it is better to have them go straight through, than
road anyway, all you have to do is come up about 50                 come filter through this neighbourhood.
yards and come up close to the train tracks and come
                                                                    S. Mota: We are seeing a lot of them go further west
out on steeles avenue and just have Markham do the
                                                                    on steeles avenue, we are seeing a lot of them turn on
rest to connect it. Markham would have the tougher job
crossing the rouge river, they do all the eas, they do


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Markham road and we are seeing a lot of them go down               none; they should have said no. it is quite insulting and
Morningside avenue. if you do not do any improvements,             arrogant for you to stand up there and tell these people
you will see infiltration through the subdivisions, like you       that bought their homes here, you should have looked in
see today. People that are driving through, that do not live       the trailer before you bought them to see what highways
or work in the area, they just want to commute from Point          were coming. Why do the people buying the new homes
a to Point b and the only road is a road that goes through         in york region not look to see where the employment
these subdivisions, so that is called traffic infiltration. that   places are, instead of assuming they are all going to
is today, thousands more are coming.                               come down and drive down highway 401 to work
                                                                   everyday. What about highway 407, why did you not
R. Ogilvie: Can i interrupt; i have a bunch of other               expropriate it, instead of letting a foreign company own
people who want to come in. Could i say you pointed                and charge people whatever they want because there
out what you think will happen if they go ahead with the           is no legal limit on what they charge. they would all be
discontinuous option?                                              driving on highway 407 if it was not a private road.
Comment: yes.                                                      S. Mota: We are not here suggesting, you mentioned that
R. Ogilvie: i think you have stated that very clearly and          we are here pushing the continuous alignment, we are
it has been recorded. Can i go over to this line and add           not.
additional people. the consultants will also be here after         Comment: Why is it even up there then?
the session, so if you want to spend some time talking to
Martin in terms of a number of the options and what he             S. Mota: the continuous alignment was previously
sees or steve, please do that as well.                             selected in the 2005 ea. We are here and we need to
                                                                   demonstrate to people that come out why have we
Comment: i would like to know why it seems that                    changed the alignment. We are here now recommending
york region has come here, still trying to push for the            the discontinuous; the continuous is not being
continuous alignment when you know very well it is not             recommended. the point i was trying to make earlier is, it
going to happen. and you are saying yourself, it has been          is unfortunate that these roads do not get built when the
stated very clearly. besides that, my husband did go to            development is happening, rather than after the fact.
the infrastructure meeting in toronto where they voted as
to how wide you would be able to make steeles avenue.              Comment: they are not to facilitate this development
the people of Morningside heights, very generously and             here; they are to facilitate york region development.
somewhat naively, i believe, actually voted in favour of
                                                                   S. Mota: that is not the case. arterial roads are to
you widening steeles avenue to 4 lanes, not 6 lanes. i do
                                                                   facilitate growth in the area, but it is not only Morningside
not know where you are getting this 6 lanes from. i also
                                                                   heights, it is other developments in the area as well.
want to say to everyone here, “it ain’t over till it’s over.”
do not say it looks like you are going to do this, because         Comment: i am not going to be very popular, i knew
you can fight it and keep fighting it. the 6 lanes was for         about Morningside heights before, so i did see the plans
the bridge, not for the road, not for steeles avenue; they         before. to be fair, at least with Mattamy, they did show
said 4 lanes. i think the people here were sort of tricked         Morningside heights going up to steeles avenue. i do
because obviously in a bargaining situation, the person            remember seeing that, but i chose another place to live.
who wants something and the other people who say no,               i was thinking about coming back. i really feel badly that
you are going to ask for more than what you really want.           you do not realize what is happening here. not having a
you are going to say, we need 8 lanes, we desperately              continuous road, what you are doing, you are isolating
need 8 lanes, so they feel like they are giving you a              yourself, as well as, property values could drop. how
compromise to say, okay 4 then. they should have said



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Morningside heights is built, basically, the way the road       commercial is supposed to come through, they are not
is, it is not going through your neighbourhood. i, basically,   going to be built or you are going to have b-type places.
go through your neighbourhood in order to get north to          if i am driving, i am going home, i am coming through
steeles avenue. if you, basically, have this discontinuous      here, i want to get some milk, but the traffic is so bad, i
road, you are going to have tons of people going through        am not going to stop by to get milk. therefore, there will
your neighbourhood. it is going to drop your property           be no commercial built, or you will have a substandard
values. you are going to have, basically, cars going by. if     commercial, or you will have vacant land and vacant land
someone wants to buy your house, they are going to say,         attracts dumping and attracts commercial dumping. the
wait this is like a main road. i would really think long and    whole look of the neighbourhood would be sub par. you
hard before you say, i do not want a highway or whatever;       have nice houses, but you are going to have dumping,
it is not intrusive, Morningside heights is not intrusive at    you are going to have people zipping through your
all. if you do not have a continuous road, people basically     neighbourhoods, i do not care what kind of speed bumps
take the path of least resistance; they are going to go         you have. you really have to look at the bigger picture.
through your neighbourhood. i actually learned your             it is not a highway going through. the way they built
neighbourhood because of the traffic; i learned to go           Morningside heights, it is fantastic, it is nice. if it goes,
through staines road and just even a corner to Oasis            basically, what the person said, away from the tracks,
boulevard, and you have this big sign up saying, be             so it goes curving and then away, it is great. you could
careful, traffic zone, watch for children. you have that        have actually toronto transit Commission (ttC) service
there for a reason. traffic calming is not going to help.       because you have to expand the roads. if you have the
really, honestly, you really have to stop this york/toronto     gO train, that is so perfect, all of this is adding value to
thing and just look at it as a whole. you want continuous       your property. but if you just isolate yourself and have
traffic all the way through, you do not want people to go       this jog at the top of Morningside heights, you are going
through your neighbourhoods because you paid some               to have, basically, traffic. People are going to be driving
good money for your property. you will see how fast it          by, looking and saying, i do not want to live there; they
drops. if you are not going to have continuous, i would         are just sitting there, just looking at your house, you are
not buy because i do know a bit about traffic; i know           looking at them. you are going to have such a skewed
the consequences. the plots of land that you have, that         property value and it is going to affect the whole area
                                                                because you have staines road going through, you have
                                                                seasons drive, everyone who lives on those roads, i
                                                                would be scared. because i know for myself, i would just
                                                                zip right through here; i am not going to wait in traffic. i
                                                                know you know that this jog is such a bad idea. i know
                                                                you are trying to appease everyone, make everyone
                                                                happy, but it really is, i do not want to use the word
                                                                “negligent” but you know better, so, if you know better,
                                                                you do better. i really hope you really look at the bigger
                                                                picture because you are playing a dangerous game; the
                                                                most valuable thing that you have is your home. i am
                                                                just telling you the truth, i am not a politician, i am just
                                                                someone who is thinking about buying and seeing what is
                                                                going on and it scares me. i really do hope you look at the
                                                                bigger picture.




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Comment: i was really astonished to hear the person               Comment: you came into the meeting today, i am really,
saying that they need to build those roads, in case               really appalled at the lack of respect that york region has
of an emergency in the neighbourhood. there are                   shown to the residents of Morningside heights, truly. First
enough roads to service the emergency needs of a                  of all, you sent out a notice to the residents and only a
neighbourhood like Morningside heights and staines                handful of them get it. secondly, you sent it out last week,
road. this whole thing is just to serve the needs of              asking them to come to a meeting, starting at 6:30 p.m.
Markham. they had a Markham bypass, the donald                    today, when you know full well, that at 6:30 p.m. most
Cousens Parkway, they have to get through it, they                people will not be here. you call this a popularity contest,
have to direct their traffic from Markham down through            my friend; you said it about 3 or 4 times. this is not a
a residential area and no one gives a dam for this area.          popularity contest, look around, this is serious business,
really, i find this totally objectionable. i think you are just   this affects all of our lives. you have not addressed the
forcing it through our throats and really, this is a crime,       noise control, the pollution. back in 2005 and 2006,
really. it is easy for everyone to say, the City of toronto       when Morningside heights residents association (Mhra)
would not allow it to go through Meadowvale avenue                opposed the Markham bypass, we calculated that there
or would not allow this or would not allow that, but they         were going to be about 27,000 cars using the road. you
would be certainly allowed to go through the houses               have come back today, that 27,000 is probably in the
of this area for sure. Who cares, it is only Morningside          50,000-range. i totally disagree with the other person that
heights, it is not Markham, it is not Unionville, it is just      spoke about evaluation and appreciation of the property
Morningside heights. it took 3 years, 4 years to build            values. you have not understood or really appreciated
that bridge, 4 years, 3 years, we had to go 1 lane this           what 50,000 vehicles will do to our value. you have not
way, stop and then the other lane because no one cared            addressed any of that. First of all, you are saying, your
about this area. Finally, they made it. now they are going        projected population of 447,000 people, growing from
to jump, ram through all this traffic from york region right      330,000, but you have failed to inform the residents
through a residential area. they should not do that. if they      here, what is the estimate of vehicle traffic through the
want to have a bypass in Markham, we should not have              neighbourhood. i totally agree with the person just now,
to suffer for that.                                               that is not to the benefit of any one of us living in this
                                                                  area, this is all about Markham. you said that it concerns
Comment: What i am trying to say is that the traffic flow,        Markham and durham and all the other regions, but
if this plan is implemented, i am just surprised, how much        look around, it is only Markham, where is durham? it is
trouble they are going to create for the public who live in       totally to your benefit that you are here, trying to push this
this area, the people who live in this area. they are going       through and ram it down our throat. We stood up against
to create a lot of pollution, traffic, people are going to be     it, we are going to do it again, my friend and we are going
late for work, there are 2 schools in that area that are          to stop you. My question to you is that when we opposed
going to be impacted. We already have many problems;              it back then, we presented to you with a proposal, and
it is a brand new area. but thanks to our councillor,             that proposal was to put in the gO transit, which you
Councillor Cho, because of his effort, we got these 2             briefly put up as some sort of plan/wish list plan. if you
bridges, which actually make life easier for us. i am totally     are projecting rapid population growth and you want to
against this plan and i would say if highway 401 is like a        take the residents from Markham to their place of work
parking lot, don valley Parkway is like a parking lot, what       downtown, why are you not considering and talking to us
would make it different. Just let it go through steeles           about gO transit through the neighbourhood. i am the
avenue, the traffic, make a left turn on Markham road             president of Mhra and we are going to fight you totally
and then go highway 401.                                          on this.




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M. Scott: Just for clarification in terms of the brief          that you ruin or hurt what is there. trCa is not mitigating
showing of the gO transit slide and the havelock line           very well as it is now and that might not be the best bar
is, that is Metrolinx, which is a provincial initiative. they   for you to try to reach. development is development. if
have identified the gO line to be there. the person started     this is the consultant’s best work, so many pretty lines,
off by saying that there are 27,000 as they determined it       i do not think this is good work; this is not good. you
back in 2005 and then in the course of their conservation       cannot even do the basic inventory work; it is shameful.
has raised it to 50,000. it is not even 27,000; it is less
                                                                Comment: actually, it is not a problem of the
than that that would be making use of the corridor. if you
                                                                scarborough people or this area, it is a problem of
put a gO line in, the person is correct, the destination
                                                                Markham, so you cannot take your problem into our
is downtown, but there are employment areas and
                                                                territory. there may be some solutions for you, one thing
employment lands within both north and south of steeles
                                                                is just take Markham road, as others said, you are just
avenue that need to be accessed. the one slide in terms
                                                                straight away connected to highway 401. that is the
of traffic crossing steeles avenue, is getting close to
                                                                only solution. second one, of course, Markham has a
50% each way in the morning, so that means there are
                                                                big problem of transportation because they do not have
people living in toronto and travelling north to their place
                                                                a highway. if they do not have a highway, highway 407
of employment and there are people who live north of
                                                                should be free for that area, at least. that is the only way
steeles avenue who are travelling south. believe it or
                                                                that you can go. but you cannot simply cut through our
not, there are people who live and work in Markham as
                                                                area because it is a purely residential and a highly prized
well, and there are people who live and work in toronto.
                                                                area. We have lots of pride. the third and final one i
there is a whole bunch of different diverse directions that
                                                                would ask you, how are you going to make the decision
the trips to and from work take. a gO line that goes to
                                                                because we came here, obviously wasting our time and
downtown because that is where all the destinations are,
                                                                you are going to have a another meeting somewhere
is not necessarily going to accommodate the additional
                                                                in Markham and are you going to really evaluate
traffic that is in the system, so there has to be a balance
                                                                our problem. how are you going to decide, or give
of transit, which are the Metrolinx proposals, as well as,
                                                                recommendations about. that is my concern and you are
road network improvements as well.
                                                                to answer me on this question.
Comment: i am going to bring another perspective that
                                                                S. Mota: On thursday night, we will be at a second
has not really been brought; it is the natural environment
                                                                meeting in Markham. at the end of the public
and how they have not really been done. We are
                                                                consultation, we will take the input that we have received
supposed to trust the consultants that could not even
                                                                for consideration in the ea. We will document in a
find frogs in an area that is full of frogs. i think anyone
                                                                revised ea, in an amended ea, we will document the
here has heard frogs from their properties. they said
                                                                conclusions. We will submit it to the MOe for a decision.
there were only 7 species of mammal in the area and
                                                                the MOe will then take the document, circulate it to
there is documentation of almost 40 species, just in this
                                                                a government review team that includes conservation
area alone, where the study area was. the box grove
                                                                authorities, Ministry of transportation (MtO), all of the
developers killed the only spring peeper pond in the area
                                                                provincial, federal agencies that typically review these
by pumping sediment-laden groundwater across, over
                                                                projects. the MOe will actually publish an amendment
their property into the rouge Park area and drowning
                                                                to their ea review to give people a chance to look at
them in the new bob hunter Memorial Park. so much
                                                                what their assessment is of the ea before a final decision
was missed that when it went back to the Minister of the
                                                                is made and then ultimately, the Minister makes a final
environment and he rejected it, we sent back a request to
the Minister of environment to review the information that
had been brought to him. improvements should not mean



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decision. you have an opportunity if you want to continue        that would avoid the diversion of traffic coming through
to object to a project when you see the amended ea to            Morningside heights and that whole scarborough link.
write to the Minister of environment.                            is there any opportunity in terms of the assessment, has
                                                                 there been any consideration given to that?
Comment: good, but you cannot just simply stress on
the environment problem. it is not just an environmental         S. Mota: thank you for the comment. We did look at
problem because we are having a different problem;               all of the alternatives to the undertaking, what different
that is why we are here. Of course, there are going to be        methods we could use to deal with the traffic, which is
environmental problems, but that is not what the majority        Markham-toronto, toronto-Markham traffic; it is north
of us are thinking of, so you have to address this, our          south. your recommendation for improvements on
problem, more than the environmental problem.                    highway 407, i think ultimately widening of highway 407
                                                                 is in the plans for the provincial facility to deal with these
M. Scott: Just to clarify that “environment” as it is            west traffic, but it still will not address the need that we
defined in the ea act, is the built environment and the          are looking at today. this is one piece of a network. if we
natural environment. the built environment includes the          look at the Master Plans that york region has for road
communities, it includes the residential development, it         and transit improvements, City of toronto has Master
includes the proposed and future development of the City         Plan, and the Province has a 5-year highway plan. this
of toronto’s Official Plan and york region. it is not just the   is one project, there are many different projects, so your
natural environment, it is the overall total environment.        suggestion for improvements to an east-west corridor is
Comment: i humbly accept your opinion, but still this            very valid. this is not precluding all of those other things
problem, this environmental problem is not emerging from         that are being planned through these other mechanisms.
our area, but some problems are coming into our area;            Comment: i would say though, the misinterpretation
that is our concern.                                             of this, in terms of that north to south traffic, the north
Comment: i guess you have answered the first part                to south traffic is essentially to get to highway 401; it
of the question that i would have had, which is, what            really is. it is not about anything else, but people coming
is the intent of the meeting today, with regards to what         from the north trying to get to highway 401. What i am
the final decision is going to be. because obviously, i          asking you to take a look at, is if that is the case, and the
think we are all very dissatisfied with what we have seen        bulk of the traffic is coming from Markham, why is there
presented with respect to the discontinuous line and             not some consideration given to reinvesting the money
the increased flow of traffic that will be going through         with whoever the owners are of highway 407. so that,
our neighbourhood. i think clearly it indicated that all         instead of building this corridor coming south, and being
the traffic or the increase in traffic is essentially coming     concerned about the north to south movement, when
from the Markham development and that box grove                  really the issue is east to west, of having a portion of that
area. Part of the question i had though, is with respect         highway for those people who are in that area, being user
to the alternatives that are considered. Certainly there is      free, if you would.
money that is going to be spent to make these changes.           R. Ogilvie: at a minimum, your idea and suggestions
is there any thought being given to diverting the traffic        have been recorded and will be included in the summary,
back to highway 407? the municipality that has the               so it becomes part of the public record. thank you for
volume of traffic, there is somehow an agreement made            that.
with highway 407 that a portion of that highway, that the
cost that would be used to reroute the traffic through the
toronto area, that a part of that area for highway 407 is
made cost free, based on the dollars that would be spent.



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Comment: i guess it is no until it is not. We keep saying       not know why. but if you have seen them go through
no until someone says yes. i have been to council               there, believe me, they are not going at 60 km/h; it has to
meetings, i have met with the members of the council in         be at least 80 km/h or 90 km/h, but no one says
scarborough and they all told us in meetings that the           anything, that seems to be okay. imagine what would
answer would be no, no way and still Markham keeps              happen if that was continuous road into the City of
pushing and pushing and pushing. the reality is this,           toronto and down to highway 401. the other point is, the
everything that you have done, steve, and i am sorry you        ea study that was done, although it was done technically
are in that spot, that is part of the job, but what you are     correct, it was done with a certain confined parameter so
saying, technically, is accurate and correct. but that is not   that everything and all the findings would be assessed as
what the argument is. the argument is the whole purpose         being sort of non-impactful, if i can use that term. there
of this road is for the needs of Markham. it was never          was no ea study done leading all the way down to
going to be put in there. it may have been negotiated           highway 401 and sheppard avenue. the poor people in
many years before the subdivision was put in, but there         that area are going to get pretty much the lion’s share, the
were also amendments and changes that were done                 remnants, or the upshot of this whole thing, and that is
along with the development of the community that they           one big bulging build-up of traffic, unless they are going
said, you know what, i know we made a long-term                 to widen the roads at sheppard avenue and Morningside
commitment, in order to get things approved, it passed,         avenue; i do not see how they are going to avoid that. if
they said yes. Once the area started to be built and            any of you here think that for a moment that these people
whatnot things changed, Markham still wanted to                 are not going to do this, take a look at the bridge they just
continue with their plan to go through. toronto said, no,       finished building at Old Finch avenue, take a look at what
no, no. the other insult to toronto was, oh, toronto you        they have done. it is beautiful work; i think it was $40
are going to pay for it. excuse me, you will pay for it. no,    million, $20 million to $40 million to complete. but take a
which means i am going to pay for it, all of us are going to    closer look at the sidewalks at each side. these are not
pay for it. it may be okay for someone. that was the            normal sidewalks. there is a patch of asphalt built within
preferred route, i keep hearing tonight. Preferred route for    the existing street. no one builds streets with asphalt
whom? not us. so, please when you say that, be aware            unless there is an easy way to reconfigure the width of
that there are people here that are not seeing it that way.     those lanes, which means that the asphalt is going to be
From an engineering point and from a study point of view,       turned into concrete and the concrete that is there now is
you may be correct. this argument for having a straight         going to be chiseled away and another asphalt road will
line, right through continuous, no, complete disaster. that     be extended. it is done with that thought in mind.
is like flushing the toilet all the way down from Markham,      because if you take a look at it, it is a very generous gap,
down to highway 401. What happens with that? People             very generous opening that they have left there. Mark my
talk about you will have a big traffic jam. the reason why      words, that is going to be reconfigured to wider lanes at
we are not going to have a traffic jam is because you           what used to be Old Finch avenue and that 1-lane,
were nice enough to give us 4, hey, 6 lanes. Why stop at        2-way, sort of bottleneck we used to have to drive
6, put 8. We know that that is what is going to happen; it      through that now people just fly right through. that is
is going to take away from the jam or the bottleneck. but       another evidence that things have been planned, this is
that was designed because people wanted the traffic to          just a series of steps. i know that you have to follow
slow down and not come through as a causeway or a               through it, i know there are lawyers telling you to get this
raceway. if you have ever been on the donald Cousens            done because the City has bylaws and procedures, i am
Parkway, it is a racing track. i do not know why they do        aware of all that. My issue is, when we bought in here, we
have police on both sides. they have the police ticketing       also bought to try to get the best information possible.
speeding vehicles going south, but not going north; i do        telling us that i guess people do not read those 150
                                                                pages, why do we have to go to page 150, why can it not



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be upfront on the very first page? Why can the plans not
have a big red, neon saying, by the way, here is all the
stuff you do not want to see next to the houses you are
buying. that is what the City should be doing, but they do
not. they hide; technically it is available if you go to the
City and you find it under a pile of books. that is hiding
behind the system, that is not being upfront, that means
you have something to hide. the whole point here is, we
are trying to be transparent. right now i am having a hard
time looking through that door, it is solid wood, i do not
see right through it. i know your policies are there to work
for the benefit of the system, the problem is, the context
in which we are discussing it, the two are not aligned and
that is where we are having this problem. telling me that
the traffic jam is going to cause a problem, there is not        things to be worked out. My concern is that i will try to
going to be a traffic jam because right now the traffic jam      fight this as long as i can, but at least in some way, you
we have is because the roads are still the original width        have this traffic jam here, people that are worried about
that they were before the development went in, 2-lanes.          cars going through, there is a majority that may or may
the minute you expand that to 4-lanes, you eliminate a lot       not go through the neighbourhoods because you will
of that congestion. but sooner or later, you know east           have wider lanes in there. the point is why are we having
and west is going to have to be expanded because of all          that huge jog anyway. there should just be an east-west
the stores now that they have built and all the big box          resolve. if toronto needed that road to go south, they
stores; that is just a matter of time. i know we have to         would have put it in. there are cars today; people worry
service roads, i know we have to widen them up and i             about traffic jams. anyone here who travels east on
know that is to service the people in the community; i           highway 401 past Morningside avenue at 4:00 p.m., it is
understand that and i agree with you. but when you put           a parking lot, going to Pickering, Oshawa, Whitby and
that into context of what we are talking about here, the         ajax. by the way, did the home prices go down over there
reason why this north-south is being built is not because        or are they going up? they are going up. you cannot get
they are improving the roads of toronto, this is resolving       a deal out there now and they are still going up. the idea
an issue for Markham, which by the way, is picking up            that long traffic jams and cars reduce the value of the
exactly $0.00 on toronto’s side. Which means, when               home, nonsense. go to Pickering and you tell me the size
there is a tax increase, they pay $0.00 for the extra taxes      of homes that are out there, they are going up. that
we are paying. We are already being saddled with                 argument does not wash. the bottom line here, there is
increasing higher and higher taxation due to                     an agenda being driven by parties outside of our control
mismanagement of the government here in toronto. that            and we cannot change them. Why? because there are
is another story; that is our baggage. the issue is now in       hundreds of millions of dollars already in play. all the
order to make it better, we are making it worse, on top of       documentation done here has been designed to be done
that we are having to negotiate against our will and like i      in a way to do due process to get people to see it, make
said, it is no until it is yes. so somewhere, someone is         them aware of it, it does not mean it is going to change.
going to make a deal that is going to be approved and            that is like saying, if we have enough people that say no,
away it goes. the other pieces are already in place, the         it will be no. that is like saying i know what the size of half
pawns are put in place, it is just a matter of a few more        a hole is. how do you know when enough is enough? i
                                                                 say 10,000 people said no, i am sorry, it was 10,001 we
                                                                 needed, come back next time. We do not know. the



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terminology being used here, i have to tell you, for the        your area, i think it is around 7:00 p.m.; that is the time
amount of education you have and the fact that you have         you are starting your meeting. Why did you pick 6:30
to present a lot of this information to various groups in the   p.m. over here and you picked 7:00 p.m. in your area?
City, your PowerPoint presentation needs a lot of work.
                                                                S. Mota: no, actually we are starting earlier in Markham.
you have to communicate properly. right now, what you
                                                                We would have started earlier here to give people an
have there, we call that an eye chart in the business, that
                                                                opportunity to come earlier, but the school would not let
is an eye chart. that is the worst thing you can do when
                                                                us in earlier.
presenting. it confuses everyone and it frustrates them.
the terminology, not defined, but you are talking as if you     Comment: even 6:30 p.m. is too early for this area
are talking to peers. We are not your peers; we are here        because most people that work in here are going outside
trying to get educated by you so we understand. you             to work. if i work in downtown, i cannot come here by
have to bring the cookies down to the table so everyone         6:30 p.m. the other thing i want to emphasize, why do
can talk on the same page. right now, you have this             you not put more emphasis on the public transit, instead
jargon that we are not aware of. Whatever that means,           of having the highways, why do you not go for the light
well, i told you what it was, you said yes; we do not even      rails?
know what we are saying yes to, so that is what we are
objecting to, not that your information is inaccurate, but      S. Mota: that is an excellent point and transit is a huge
within the context, that is the whole argument. everything      part of the investment commitment that the Province is
that you are talking about, when you put it in the context      making through Metrolinx, through MoveOntario2020.
of where we live, this is where we are having the major         the york region Official Plan and transportation Master
problem. it is nothing personal; it is just that we have        Plan have, and we can see on this map, all kinds of
been told no, no, no; we have been told by councillors,         light rail transit, bus rapid transit and gO transit line
no, no, no. the problem is that it is going to be a yes,        expansions. transit is part of the solution for the travel
sooner or later, and all this was just a show. We have to       demand.
get someone to at least try to make this right, fix some of
                                                                Comment: We did not hear about it, we only heard the…
the things. that if we really need this, we have to put up
the burden of that road, then we should be compensated          S. Mota: roads still need to be part of the solution as
for it, either through tax reduction in our property tax or     well. but tonight, we are out here talking about this.
some sort of user fee, coming south of there from the           had you come out to one of our Master Plan meetings,
good people of Markham. that should all be put in to            we would have talked to you about transit, about smart
subsidize that road. i do not see why the people of             commute, about carpooling, about bike lanes, about all
toronto should be saddled with the cost of building that        types of different ways.
road against their wishes.
                                                                Comment: is that for Markham or is that for
Comment: i live in this area and i had many questions,          scarborough?
but this person here raised all of the issues that i had in
my mind to ask you. One thing i wanted to emphasize,            S. Mota: it is the york region Master Plan.
whatever the setup we have for this session is very poor
                                                                Comment: so, that really would not help us.
because we have all kinds of people over here and the
setup you have done is mostly from the ea point of view,        S. Mota: toronto would have been doing the same type
which how many of us know about it anyway. also, it was         of planning.
extremely poor in the sense that you only sent us this
letter one week ago that you are going to have this thing
and you are going to have the meeting at 6:30 p.m. in



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Comment: in this case you are coming to us, so you               comprehend, and not in layperson’s terms that we can
should also think about this area as to how you are going        understand. so that you can slide it through, yes, i did
to improve it.                                                   the presentation and everything went well. Continuing
                                                                 on, the noise reduction, you have not addressed any of
Comment: i want to draw your attention to a couple               the noise reduction in there. Under air quality, you have
of things. this is a letter dated February 17th, 2006,           not addressed any of the air quality issues we identified
presented to the MOe by Mhra, quite a comprehensive              in that document. again, as i alluded earlier, that Mhra,
document. in it, we identify and this was back in 2007,          which was a significant force and which represents this
we predicted a daily vehicle traffic of 27,000 vehicles          community, was not consulted on any form in this matter,
per day. so far, i am yet to hear what you are talking in        including Councillor Cho. My question to you is, in one of
terms of number of vehicles. that person disputed that           your slides you said that you are going to create 158,000
number, but i will give him a chance at the end to come          jobs. Can you elaborate on that 158,000 jobs and how
and tell us how much vehicular traffic we are looking            many of those jobs will be residents of this community.
at. i also wanted to point out a couple of things in this        the other request i would like to make and it came up
document. Under the historical background and this was           with several of the other residents who were asking the
stated in July 1998 by the toronto City Council, report          question, for the record, i would like to have a vote as to
13, Clause 5 and i will just read what is in quotation           how many of us here oppose what you are saying and
marks. “there is a position taken by the scarborough             what you are presenting, oppose the Markham bypass.
Community Council that it does not support any road              i want that to go on the record to the Minister of the
connection between highway 407/Markham bypass                    environment so that he understands, up front, that we are
and highway 401, as it is detrimental and negative to the        totally against all of this, by raising our hands.
proper planning of the Morningside heights area.” this is
going back to 1998 and you are coming up and saying,             R. Ogilvie: your question was about how many of the
our residence went up in 2002, but this is referring to a        jobs are going to be here.
motion adopted by scarborough City Council in 1998.
                                                                 Comment: yes, there is a slide of 158,000 jobs that
Further on in the document, and i will just point out a
                                                                 you said you are going to create out of it. i would like to
couple of things because i do have a couple of questions,
                                                                 know and please tell us, elaborate, what are those jobs
under “safety”, it says, “the ea study stated,” and this
                                                                 and how many of those jobs would be for residents of
was the ea report that you conducted, “safety will be a
                                                                 Morningside heights.
prime consideration in the ea study.” that is page 31 of
the ea terms of reference. “the ea will assess the safety        M. Scott: in terms of the population and employment,
of individuals, including pedestrians, students and cyclists     the numbers that are shown here are based on
in our neighbourhood.” this audience did not hear any of         employment numbers and population numbers within a
those concerns being addressed. Quite a comprehensive            broad study area that was about highway 407, townline
document on environmental effects and under the                  road, may of gone west of Markham road, and then i
quotation mark, we cited in the document, “the objective         think south to about highway 401. that was the broad
of this plan is to protect, rehabilitate and enhance the         study area that includes both york region population and
rouge river watershed, so that it will support a healthy         employment, and also, includes toronto population and
and sustainable fish population, consisting of residence         employment numbers. these numbers are forecast and
and migratory cold water and warm fish communities               come out of the provincial ministry of housing, Ministry
where appropriate.” none of that is being addressed              of Municipal affairs and housing (MMah) and they are
here. i just want to point out at this point in time, the lack   projections in terms of where the population can grow,
of respect, again, that a person pointed out, which your
document, which it is way beyond what most of us can



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based on the land use that is to be developed and the          slide, you should have that information; you are expected
land use that is already been developed. We are not here       to have that information here.
saying these are the jobs that are going to be created
                                                               M. Scott: the information is the basis for determining the
as a result of this roadway, we are here saying, because
                                                               travel demand. the information is not specific to, we are
of this population and employment, there is going to be
                                                               not here tonight to talk about whether that is a valid set
people moving around; and these people moving around
                                                               of numbers or not. What we are saying is, that is base
need to use transit, they need to drive their car, they need
                                                               information that we received, that we input into the traffic
ways to move around. it is looking at the growth that is
                                                               model to generate the traffic that we see on the future
going to occur in this general area in the next 20 years.
                                                               road network. it is fundamental for…
Comment: i would still like to know specifically, how
                                                               R. Ogilvie: What has been offered, acknowledged, you
much of that is from Morningside heights, we are talking
                                                               expected people to bring that data and to present it. the
about Morningside heights, not Markham or not outside
                                                               fact that it has not, Martin and steve will go back. We will
of Morningside heights.
                                                               include it in the summary and that is about the best that
M. Scott: this includes an area bigger than Morningside        can be done at this point in time, given that it was not
heights.                                                       available.

Comment: how much of that specifically pertains to             Comment: We will wait for the information.
Morningside heights?
                                                               Comment: i am member of Mhra. i want to thank
M. Scott: i would have to take it back and respond.            Chris; he is our president of Mhra. i want to thank
                                                               Councillor Cho who is here, for his support. thank you
Comment: let us ask the question another way, how              Councillor Cho for continually opposing this and our City
much of that applies to Markham?                               Council. i want to talk about a point you made that i am
M. Scott: the same, i do not know either answer,               still a bit confused about. Moderator, you have done a
specifically. i just know that those are the numbers that      great job, except for one thing. you just said that my
we received.                                                   friend Chris generalized, he did not. you generalized. i
                                                               looked around and everyone had their hand up, except
Comment: the other request is by show of hands, i              for about 5 people that i counted. so, what happened
would like to know how many people oppose all of this,         was, and you were trying to tell Chris he generalized, you
what is going on here. everyone. i would like that to be on    missed the inherent point that he was making. about
the record please.                                             95% of the people here raised their hands; that was not
                                                               a generalization. there is a difference between possibility
R. Ogilvie: not everyone, i think you are generalizing, not
                                                               and probability. so, yes the word “everyone” was not
everyone. but i think the sentiment, everything we have
                                                               technically correct, but to be fair, many of the words used
heard people talk about, is they are concerned and object
                                                               in this presentation were not technically correct. the spirit
to it. i think that is a valid point.
                                                               of what Chris was saying was that the majority of people
Comment: Point taken.                                          here, i would say 95%, did not agree with it, so that is
                                                               an important distinction for you as a moderator. you
S. Mota: if you would leave us your contact, we can get        should not have made that mistake. i do want to thank
you those specific numbers that you are asking for.            all of you for being here, i know it is in a tough position,
                                                               but to be fair, you are paid for it. so, i do not make any
Comment: i would have expected you to bring that
                                                               apologies about some of the experiences that you are
information here and address it specifically. you probably
would have that information because if you put it up in the



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having, perhaps, or maybe not, in terms of what you feel,        memorized backwards 3 or 4 slides. My encouragement
because i know you do this for a living. a couple of points      to you is to address that in the future. the other point
that i want to make. someone else very eloquently stated         that i wanted to make is the discontinuous, the route
something, from a communication point of view, you have          where it goes down to steeles avenue. My feeling is, i
failed. i want to ask you one question, did you, truly, you      live near boulderbrook drive, which is the 6th road off
or your staff, prepare this PowerPoint for tonight’s public      staines road. i currently see people whipping down
consultation session?                                            that raceway, which is now become staines road and
                                                                 when my daughter and i are trying to cross the road in
S. Mota: yes.                                                    the summer time, trying to cross the road to go the park,
Comment: you did; that is very disappointing and here            around that bend, it is very dangerous. i can only imagine
is why. From everything you heard from other people,             what is going to happen when people are trying to avoid
from the fact that you prepared, and i am hoping this            going to make the left down what is going to be tapscott
changes in the future, slides that people cannot read.           road. they are going to cut through staines road, even
i have 20/20 vision and i was sitting right here, i could        though they may widen steeles avenue, they are still
not make out some of the names of the streets. i think           going to cut through staines road; this was an issue our
the person referred to it as “eye chart.” it really shocks       resident association raised in the past that at least we
me because i am sure you have done many public                   should have a no left turn sign. but in order for that to be
presentations before. lesson 101 in urban planning               effective, police would have to be there and the fact of the
and public consultation is you never prepare a chart or          matter is, the toronto Police service is not going to put a
a slide like that. My encouragement to you is, as you            car there waiting during the 4:00 to 7:00 p.m. hours. the
go to your next public consultation, not only with this,         other point i wanted to make was the work that has been
but future ones, that the charts and the information are         done prior to this, and it is really to echo the excellent
able to be read. second, the language, the jargon that is        point that you made, the communities continue to say
used from an urban planning point of view or from other          no; City Council has continued to say no and our City
types of planning or engineering, that is not effective          Councillor, thankfully, has continued to say no. i really do
communication. the reason i raise that is because the            not understand what City of toronto’s role is. i am not
inherent mistrust within any public consultation, not            sure, is there a City of toronto representative, other than
just this one, is really not helped when you do these            Councillor Cho, who is on the bureaucratic side, is there
things or your staff prepares slides like this. Many of          anyone here like that? are you able to able questions?
the points that have been made about Morningside                 Carolyn Johnson: We are just waiting to be invited when
avenue being widened and it has been like that for a             you are finished what you are saying, we are happy to
long time. Personally, i think Morningside avenue was            address one or two of the points. We have not done the
always meant to be a main transportation corridor in             technical analysis.
scarborough. i think this is probably the final legacy of it
as it is probably going to be connected; i hope not. From        Comment: no, just sort of a question because i am
a communication point of view, please know that my               not sure about the validity and i am not doubting you,
frustration, i think what you have heard from many people        but you have said something, someone else said
here, is that the way the information is being presented,        something about the City of toronto agreeing or not
40 minutes presentation, using jargon, using terms               agreeing. that is what i would like some clarification
like “a2a” and “a4b”, not being able to refer back to it.        on. but symbolic, i grew up in guyana but came here in
Personally, i do not necessarily understand how it could         1974, in scarborough; my daughter goes to this school.
have been prepared for public consultation because               i truly expected City of toronto people, no offence to
references made on one slide, cannot possibly be




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york region, but i just expected, since it is being held in       Comment: so, City of toronto Council said yes, they
City of toronto, City of toronto people to be leading the         agree with the drawing that is on the board, the former
session, but there may have been a jurisdiction reason            9th line to steeles avenue to tapscott road.
as to why the york region people are here. it would be
                                                                  Councillor Cho: i will respond, when they developed
my hope and it was my hope that City of toronto would
                                                                  the industrial tapscott employment area, they needed a
also have input into this and is able to speak to us. i am
                                                                  road, but i cannot move any bylaw because there is no
not an outsider, you are in terms of jurisdictional lines;
                                                                  new alignment as of yet. but once it is there, i will make
you are from york region and we are from toronto, so i
                                                                  sure that i will move a motion to pass a bylaw, through
was hoping that City of toronto might be able to be here.
                                                                  traffic not allowed. the companies who are working
My question to you, just very finally, i am hoping toronto
                                                                  there, they have to have a road, but i do not like to see
could respond because i do not really know the answer
                                                                  all the traffic from Markham coming through their door.
to this, you said steve, that City of toronto Council did
                                                                  but i talked to our staff, Carolyn Johnson; we cannot
not disagree with any of this, expect for not building
                                                                  pass any bylaws because there is no new alignment
a new road adjacent to the rail lines. and so, they are
                                                                  as yet. but when it is coming, i am going to do that, no
actually in favour of, if i could put it that way, the tapscott
                                                                  through traffic. so that only people working there, they
road, providing some other technical conditions were
                                                                  can use that. there is another thing i am going to say,
met. is that what you said because that is different than
                                                                  i do not know that i can make it to the Markham public
what i thought. i thought, like Chris, City Council said no
                                                                  consultation meeting the day after tomorrow, around
to any kind of linkage. if you could speak to that and if
                                                                  that time i have a doctor’s appointment, maybe i have to
City of toronto staff could speak to that, it would help me
                                                                  cancel that. i have a motion to move through the Public
understand because i am hearing two different stories.
                                                                  Works and infrastructure Committee, the chair is glenn
S. Mota: i will say it again, it was that City Council            de baeremaeker, and glenn and myself are working very,
objected to the continuous alignment, so that was the             very hard not to welcome all this traffic from Markham,
original alignment from the 2005 ea, and identified a             so that there will be no left turn at staines road and
preference for the discontinuous, which is what we see            tapscott road in the morning. in the afternoon and the
on the board there.                                               evening, no right turn, through traffic at staines road and
                                                                  tapscott road go to the east. When the Markham people
                                                                  know this is my plan, our plan, they may have a traffic
                                                                  bottleneck at 9th line and steeles avenue. is this what
                                                                  they want to do there? i am not going for the popularity,
                                                                  i am not going there to get the votes, they cannot vote
                                                                  for me, but i have to let them know that this is our plan.
                                                                  about this new alignment, this is coming because of the
                                                                  new tapscott employment area, but not necessarily, we
                                                                  are doing that to invite all the traffic from Markham, so i
                                                                  will make it very clear.

                                                                  Carolyn Johnson: i would like to give you some
                                                                  history because the president referred to a scarborough
                                                                  Community Council position from 1998. that position
                                                                  was in advance of your subdivisions being approved.
                                                                  they were approved by the Ontario Municipal board
                                                                  (OMb) because all the owners who built your homes took




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their applications there because scarborough Council,            toronto, just like they have done in Markham, and have
before the amalgamation, did not want residential uses           the developers build most of the road, as part of their
here at all. it was supposed to be employment uses; it           subdivisions in box grove. We wanted our developers to
was part of tapscott industrial, all the way to the rouge        build as much as possible on our side. your developers
river. however, the OMb took no notice of scarborough            build the south part; the industrial owners up near steeles
Community Council’s position with respect to the road,           avenue will build the north part, if we have that alignment
which was supported by many parties from york region             approved. the piece in the middle, over the railway, would
to the Province of Ontario, which also came to the OMb           be the City of toronto’s cost. the final kicker to get that
hearing. the Province spoke so strongly in favour of this        implemented is whether or not the City of toronto Council
link that OMb ordered that it be provided through this           will ever pay for it. that has not been budgeted. in terms
community as a condition of approval of the plans of             of the latest position going into this exercise after 2 or
subdivision. the compromise that was done was to put             3 years of trying to reach a resolution with york region
the road as far west as possible and make it be a buffer         through the Provincial development Facilitator’s Office,
to the rail tracks, so that light employment could go in         was in October 2007, they went along with the 4 lanes on
there and shelter the homes over here from the industry          steeles avenue and the 6-lane bridges, which the person
that was already on the other side, as part of the noise         mentioned. toronto Council said they would support the
mitigation from places like ipsco and Furfari, and those         north part of this alignment, conditional upon york region
other rather unpleasant industrial businesses that are up        supporting the City’s preferred alignment of 9th line,
and down tapscott road. the road was always planned              steeles avenue and something west of 9th line, which is
to go to steeles avenue, it was in the scarborough               just basically the C2. Council has already supported this
Official Plan from 1957; it was in the Metropolitan Official     alignment. york region has kindly spent another nearly
Plan from 1980, at least, which is the earliest copy i have      $500,000 studying it to get their documentation sorted
at the office. it was always supposed to go all the way to       out so that the Ministry can finally render a solution. they
steeles avenue. the fight we have been having is over            can get on with their part of it and hopefully, we can cost
how it would get there. toronto went to the OMb hearing          share to improve steeles avenue, which desperately
on your subdivisions, pushing for this line here, to keep        needs doing. in terms of through traffic, Councillor Cho
it away from the homes as far as possible and to serve           has spoken about, no left turn bylaw, and i believe that
the industrial district. south of steeles avenue, east of        has been put in place for staines road. Unless the road
tapscott road, that line there, that is what toronto always      is connected over the CP line, it will not come to your
supported. Most recently, through this ea process, when          community, directly. if there are problems in the future
we wrote to the MOe, stating our position, we said we            with through traffic, then bylaws can be passed again to
objected to the continuous alignment because it was              restrict turns during rush hours. those are my comments.
going to do horrible things to the industrial lands west
                                                                 Comment: i need to clarify something; just to make sure
of Morningside avenue. it was also going to cross the
                                                                 what i have heard is correct. City of toronto said yes, and
rouge river on a brand new bridge; it was going to go
                                                                 i want to make sure. so, this is a new road, that green
through the floodplain of the rouge river; and it was
                                                                 line.
going to cross Morningside Creek and a new bridge as
well. We have perfectly good bridges on steeles avenue,          S. Mota: this is tapscott road.
which already cross those rivers and we felt it was
much better to just enlarge those bridges. that was our          Comment: that is a new road to be built.
aspect, in terms of the environment. in terms of getting
                                                                 S. Mota: that would be a new road.
the road built and reducing the cost to the taxpayers of




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Comment: so, City of toronto has said yes to that             Comment: For the notice of this public event, who was
connection.                                                   supposed to give the notification to the residents, was
                                                              it york region? i would like to say that i know that the
Carolyn Johnson: yes.                                         Markham area, because i have a sister and a cousin
Comment: so, it is not Councillor Cho, it is the rest of      that live there, were all able to get the notice. however,
City Council that we have to talk to.                         i did not get a notice and i know some other people did
                                                              not get the notice here. i am here because of raymond
Carolyn Johnson: We were at the position where the            Cho’s notice to me that it is happening. For the record, for
City of toronto was going to have to go to the MOe            the Minister, we were not properly notified. Maybe if the
tribunal to sort out the outcome of the submission of the     residents of this area were properly notified, there would
original ea study; we thought that was the process that       be more attendance. the second question is if we look
was going to happen. We had to have a position going          at the map of the traffic direction, i would like to know if
there, just like we have to have a position when we go        there is any future expansion of 14th avenue. We know
to the OMb. staff worked very hard with Council to find       that west of this area, there is denison street, there are
something that we could defend. because we thought            many great areas to go east and west. are you planning
york region was going to come with all their experts and      to ever expand these roads to increase the distribution of
lawyers, and say the continuous alignment is what we          traffic to alleviate scarborough, or are we going to take
should approve and we did not want that, so we had to         the burden of bringing all of the traffic east and west from
have some sort of position that made sense, so that was       Markham, as opposed to denison street, 14th avenue?
the position that Council adopted.                            and highway 7 because Markham road is only a 2-lane
                                                              road going up to highway 7, which also restricts traffic.
Comment: in terms of process, if one jurisdiction says
                                                              it is kind of like putting bottlenecks everywhere around a
no, like toronto, and the other jurisdiction says yes, like
                                                              large subdivision.
york region, is that considered a stalemate or is that like
an OMb, does that result go the OMb?                          S. Mota: thank you for the question and the answer is
                                                              yes, we are planning. i do not have a map of our Master
Carolyn Johnson: that goes to tribunal.
                                                              Plan, but we have hundreds of projects in our Master
Comment: but City of toronto has now said yes, though.        Plan, transit projects and road projects.
i want everyone here to know that. City of toronto said
                                                              Comment: timelines for those would be great because
yes, as long as the technical aspects are worked out by
                                                              i wonder if the 14th avenue residents would give you
york region. so, Councillor Cho, we should be talking to
                                                              any problems with having increased traffic in their area.
other people in addition to yourself because you are not
                                                              i would really like to join their consultations when that
supporting this.
                                                              happens.
Carolyn Johnson: Council has agreed to this alignment
                                                              Comment: i just wanted to get something straight, the
being taken forward to the MOe for approval. they have
                                                              traffic numbers you are forecasting for the road are the
not said they will build it.
                                                              proposed roads, not the roads that are there now, or are
Comment: but it is one step, a heck of lot closer. that is    you using the roads there now and using that number,
very good. i want to thank you for sharing that because       and you are going to say, it is just going to be that added
i did not know, coming to the meeting, that our City sold     number. you add a 4-lane road that is coming down
us out like that. that is something that we now, i think,     to a 2-lane road and they are coming down, i do not
have to take on, through Mhra.                                understand the logic on this.




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S. Mota: the travel demand is based on the population            are looking shortsighted, like 5 years from now. if you are
and employment forecasts and the area that those                 planning on living here longer than that, you are going to
population and employments are going to be in the future.        see a lot of traffic coming through your neighbourhood,
We do run the model with what is called a “do nothing”           so do it right the first time. it is better to go around the
scenario, which is future population and employment              community than through it.
if we did no improvements at all, so the existing road
                                                                 Comment: i have an open-ended question. the
network. From there, we do test alternative scenarios, up
                                                                 employment lands beside Morningside avenue, is there
to and including, a new road.
                                                                 employment lands there? there is supposed to be a
Comment: if there is a bottleneck, people usually try to         shoppers drug Mart or a grocery store?
find a way around it; they will find a way around it. it is
                                                                 M. Scott: you mean the tapscott area?
great that you are making up numbers, but i do not really
see how it is going to benefit the people when they are          Comment: not the tapscott area, the Finch avenue/
not getting an adequate number because it is a number            Morningside avenue area. because i remember when i
from the sky, it is modelling. i also was wondering, why         first came to look at this area, there was supposed to be
you would take a real pond, rip it out and then put a liner      a grocery store there. this was after the grade separation,
in it and turn it into a retention pond. the only pond that      so there was supposed to be a grocery there and i do not
you are going to disturb and you are destroying it and           see one as yet. i am just wondering, i have a feeling why.
i am wondering if that is why you did not call any frogs
because you would be destroying the populations.                 Carolyn Johnson: i will try and help you, the lands to
                                                                 the west side of Morningside avenue, all the way down
Comment: First of all, i want to say, i do not even live in      from Oasis boulevard to Finch avenue are supposed to
Markham, i live in toronto for the last 32 years, since i        be employment uses, which includes some commercial.
was born, but at the same time, i say, i do agree with the       there is a community commercial corner, if i am not
bypass. however, i do not agree with alternative C. i think      mistaken. the site right at Finch avenue and Morningside
that is shortsighted; i think that is foolish. toronto Council   avenue and north of the tracks is pretty much
agreed to it, but i do not think that is good because it         inaccessible. We are having discussions with a developer
is going to ruin the community here. you could put no            who would like to put something there, but he has very
left turn signals on staines road, you could put speed           great difficulty getting onto the lands because of the road
humps, i am telling you, that is not going to work. We all       configuration around it. but someone is trying to get you
know Markham is growing, york region is growing; we              a plaza, but it is not easy. really, the site, just north of
know that. like this person said, the donald Cousens             Finch avenue would be better, but we do not have any
Parkway, people are flying down there. Once those                applications there as of yet.
develop more, there is going to be more people coming;
9th line is already there, steeles avenue is already there,      Comment: My concern, i am looking at long-term, i am
staines road is already there, now you are going to put          not looking at short-term, 5 years, i am looking at long-
the Markham bypass there, as well as tapscott road.              term. because when companies build, they obviously
People, once they make that right, they are going to look        want the maximum amount of people coming and as big
down and they are going to see a line, even if you make          as Morningside heights is, they want more, they want
it 3 lanes either way, they are still going to turn on staines   people, they want commuters, so they want people from
road. i think staines road connects right here, if you           durham, people from Markham. if you cut off, you do not
see cars there already, i am afraid you are going to see         have it continuous, then you are going to jeopardize your
more. you should know better and you should do it right          employment lands; big business will not come. What i
the first time. everyone is worried about traffic and they       am trying to say is that, the fact is that you are basically




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jeopardizing commercial coming into the neighbourhood,           R. Ogilvie: no, we understand. Can i give Councillor Cho
so therefore, if you want to have a grocery store right          the final comment tonight?
there, a shoppers drug Mart and everything, it is going to
                                                                 Councillor Cho: First of all, i would like to thank all the
be there. basically the commuters that you hate so much,
                                                                 residents who came out. it is a long meeting, but you
are going to supply that, it is going to help. if you have
                                                                 did participate. all the comments and questions, most of
anything, you might have b stores and b stores basically
                                                                 them were excellent. i hope that the consultants, you get
bring all kinds of illicit stuff, i do not want to say what
                                                                 these responses and convey it to york region. another
kind, some sexual, whatever, but i am just saying that it
                                                                 one, i would like to make a note of it, one person said
brings those types of commercial businesses. if it is just
                                                                 very few people received the notice of this meeting. if i
servicing the community, it is not enough. i am just telling
                                                                 did not hand out my own notice of a public meeting here
you, you have to look at the bigger picture. you are just
                                                                 tonight, i do not think we would have this many people.
focused on traffic. yes, traffic is not going to be good, but
                                                                 you have to make a note of that. another thing is, you
i am just saying, overall, if you have decent commercial
                                                                 did not give enough time. if you give us at least of couple
around your area, it is going to increase your long-term
                                                                 of weeks, i am sure the number of participants would
value. you are going to have a gO station, so that is
                                                                 increase, so the process itself is flawed. you heard, no
going to service people too. People could park there and
                                                                 one living in this community, so make it very clear. i do
people could shop.
                                                                 not care what other people downtown or etobicoke,
R. Ogilvie: the sentiment in here tonight is really clear        developers, they like to develop to make more money. do
that you think this is a dumb and goofy idea. there are          they care about the environment; do they care about the
all kinds of things going on. i think steve and Martin           safety of the people living in here? i did talk to our City
have tried their best to present it, here is the information,    staff, Carolyn Johnson; i do not like to see this 27,000
notwithstanding some of the slides, reading things and           cars and 10% heavy vehicles from Markham through this
how information is presented. What you have been trying          new alignment. When can i put this sign, a no through
to do with people is, say, there is another way to look at       traffic? she said, you could do that Councillor, but we do
this and you have been asking people to do it. i think you       not have a road as of yet. i would like to let the Markham
might be going a little too far, given the sentiment in the      people know too. in a broad context, we cannot just build
room.                                                            more roads and more roads. the consultants say, we
                                                                 need the ambulance, we need the fire trucks, all that, that
Comment: you have to look at 10 years, i am thinking             is all true. but look at highway 401, you have 16 lanes
about if i am moving, 10 years, not just 5 years. i work         one way [actually 7 lanes one way] in the rush hour in the
really hard for my money, so i am looking at the most            afternoon and in the morning, they all become parking
expensive thing i am going to buy; basically, this is a long-    lots. to avoid that parking lot, we could have a lot of
term investment. everyone here obviously lives here, so i        infiltration, even though, like one of the people said, we
am just trying to tell you the most value you could get for      could put the no left turn, no right turn. i am determined
your money as someone who is shopping for a home. i              to fight to stop things, but i need your support. We
am just telling you that having shops in the area is a value,    have to work together. the final thing, i could read just
having a gO train, which is good, i assume it is going to        a couple of things. this is a report by the Chair of the
stop here, as a value.                                           transportation Committee here, through Martin scott and
R. Ogilvie: and we respect your opinion.                         steve Mota, the Chair made an excellent 7 points, but
                                                                 i am not going to read all of them. i will just read 2 or 3.
Comment: but having through traffic, it decreases the            “the increase in noise and pollution is unacceptable and
value. i am sorry if it makes you upset, but i am just telling   the health risks to all people. the Morningside heights
you the truth.                                                   will be the brunt of york region’s traffic problems.” this is



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the crucial thing. “the Morningside heights Community            meeting to our community. earlier, 2 or 3 years, they had
recommends and supports the development of public                the meeting at the scarborough Civic Centre, no one
transit, such as a gO line along the CP havelock rail line,      came. Finally, they brought it here, a couple of years ago,
which would be in keeping with Canada’s commitment               but today, i am glad, even the short notice, you are here
to meet kyoto accord obligation in promoting a viable            and i would like to thank you as a councillor here. thank
transportation corridor and option, etc.” Mr. Jim robb           you very much. i think we should bring it to an end and
is a well-known environmentalist, he could not be here           if you have further questions, if you do not mind, maybe
tonight, but he sent the report, it is a long report that i      they could ask individually.
am not going to read. What i would like to do and i am
                                                                 R. Ogilvie: i would like to thank you very much on
so glad that the president of Mhra, Mr. Chris balsingh
                                                                 behalf of york region for coming tonight. i apologize for
came out very strong. i will contact several people,
                                                                 any difficulty where people were not notified and had
whoever wants to come and work with me, we are going
                                                                 knowledge of it. My special thanks to you as a facilitator
to write more reports and send them to the Minister of
                                                                 for the courtesy you showed everyone; i know it is an
environment, and to all the mayors and everyone who
                                                                 emotional issue and it is close to your heart, so i thank
should get this report and we have to continue to fight. i
                                                                 you for being courteous tonight. thank you very much.
do appreciate, at least, that you brought this consultation




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Additional Comments


• in order to avoid the noise pollution and big traffic in    • i don’t agree with the traffic coming on Morningside,
  Morningside heights area, i am not supporting this            staines and tapscott. Property value goes down. i
  plan.                                                         would recommend 407 to open for public _ though.

• i wish there were more representation from the toronto      • Mr. Mota and Mr. scott handled the relatively hostile
  City. even though i have some idea about the road             audience with calmness and professionalism. (May 11th
  and traffic that would bring large numbers of cars            consultation at scarborough). 1. Why did you not invite
  through staines rd. it can run havoc to the residents.        planners from the toronto Planning department? if you
  roads should have been constructed long before                did, why did you not announce their presence? 2. i do
  the Morningside and box grove developments were               not agree with widening steeles to 6 lanes. 3. i do not
  allowed to be built. i find the Master Plan for both          agree with extending Morningside to steeles. Whether
  Markham and york region and scarborough was                   my property (toronto) taxes pays for it or not. this
  to some extent a failure. very poor vision to a world-        should stop the donald Cousens link going through
  class city. traffic and transportation problems around        toronto/Morningside heights.
  Markham rd and steeles were there for a long time.
                                                              • take it to steeles. From steeles to Markham. From
  Without a solid vision it is bound to be a problem.
                                                                Markham to 401.
• alternative (or continuous alignment) route “C2”
  does not work for us. We want traffic to flow through       • i do not want any Markham bypass in my area. We do
  Markham road, thank you.                                      not want traffic passing through our area. it will not be
                                                                good for us.
• i strongly oppose this development.
                                                              • no (!!) to this so called transportation improvement.
• i find it objectionable to have heavily increased traffic
  coming through the Morningside heights residential          • i strongly disagree with the proposal of the Markham
  area. Further studies need to be done on this plan to         bypass. it will have an adverse effect on our lives in
  take into account the effect of heavy traffic flow on         the sense property values will decrease; noise and
  lifestyles of the residents of Morningside heights. also,     air pollution will increase; traffic congestion in our
  effects of noise, exhaust fumes, etc., on flora and           neighbourhood.
  fauna of the area. this area supports several important     • the most straightforward north-south route from
  species and their habitat and livelihood may be               york region to toronto is down Meadowvale road.
  endangered.                                                   Meadowvale has the capacity to accommodate the
                                                                traffic. Why not use Meadowvale as a continuous
                                                                throughway?




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