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Reece Committee Hearings on the Tax Exempt Foundations, part 1

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Reece Committee Hearings on the Tax Exempt Foundations, part 1 Powered By Docstoc
					     SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE
       TAX-EXEMPT FOUNDATIONS AND
         COMPARABLE ORGANIZATIONS
       HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
                  EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS
                           SECOND SESSION
                                 ON

                         H. Res. 21
                          WASHINGTON, D . C.


                        PART 1, Pages 1-943
MAY 10, 11, 18, 19, 20, 24, 25, 26, JUNE 2, 3, 4, 8, 9, 15, 16, 17, 18, A
                           JULY 2 AND 9, 1954


Printed for the use of the Special Committee To Investigate Tax Exemp
              Foundations and Comparable Organizations




                           UNITED STATES
                    GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
 49720                   WASHINGTON : 1954
SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE TAX-EXEMPT FOU
                   CARROLL B . REECE, Tennessee, Chairman
JESSE P. WOLCOTT, Michigan            WAYNE L . HAYS, Ohio
ANGIER L. GOODWIN, Massachusetts      GRACIE PPOST, Idaho
                REND A. WoaMsER, General Counsel
                KATHRYN CASEY, Legal Analyst
                NORMAN DODD, Research Director
                ARNOLD KOCH, Associate Counsel
                JOHN MARSHALL, dr ., Chief Clerk
                THOMAS MCNIECE, Assistant Research Director
     II
  man A . Sugarman, Assistant Commissioner 	 418
Briggs, Dr . Thomas Henry, Meredith, N . H	
Capital Values and Growth of Charitable Foundations (Staff Report 2)__
Casey Kathryn legal analyst •
    Memorandum on' National Education Association ---	
    Statement on duplication of Dodd report 	
    Staff Report No . 5-Summary of Activities of The Carnegie Corpora-
       tion of New York, The Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of
       Teaching, The Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, The
      Rockefeller Foundation, and The Rockefeller General Education
       Board	                                                      668-709,869
    Testimony	                                                              710
Dodd, Norman (Staff Report No. 1), director of research 	
Dodd, Norman (resumed)	                                                23, 43',
Earl, Kenneth, attorney, Lewis, Strong & Earl, Esqs ., Moses Lake, Wash_ 729
Economics and the Public Interest (Staff Report, No . . 4) : report of T. M .
  McNiece,assl&ant director of research	                                    627
Herring, Pendleton, president, Social Science Research Council 	794
Hobbs, Dr . A . H., assistant professor of sociology, University of Penn-
  sylvania	                                                                 114
McNiece, Thomas M ., assistant research director
    Staff Report No . 2-Capital Values and Growth of Charitable Foun-
       dations	
    Staff Report No . 3-Relations Between Foundations and Education_ 467
    Between Foundations and Government 	 610
    Staff' Report No . 4-Economics and the Public Interest 	627
    Testimony	                                                              492
    Testimony (resumed)	                                                    601
National Education Association, memorandum on 	
Pfeiffer, Timothy, attorney for Social Science Research Council 	
Reece, Hon . B . Carroll, chairman
    Opening statement	
    Speech, July 23, 1953	
Resolution, H. R . 217	
Resolution, eliminating further public hearings	
Relations Between Foundations and Education 	467
Relations Between Foundations and Governments (Staff Report No . 3) __ 61
Rippy, Prof. J. Fred, letter to Congressman C'og	
Rowe, Prof. David Nelson, director of studies on human resources, Yale
  University	                                                               523
Rules of Procedure	
Sargent, Aaron M ., attorney, San Francisco, Calif 	189
Social Science Research Council, statement of 	
Staff Report No. 1, by Norman Dodd, director of research 	
Staff Report No . 2-Capital Values and Growth of Charitable Foun-
  dations	
Staff Report No. 3
    Relations Between Foundations and Education 	467
    Relations Between Foundations and Government	610
Staff Report No . 4-Economics and the Public Interest	627
Staff Report No . 5-Summary of Activities of The Carnegie Corporation
  of New York, The Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teach-
  ing, The Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, The 'Rockefeller
  Foundation, and The Rockefeller General Education Board-_ 668-709, 869-
                                                                       m
                                HOUSE OF REPREsENTATIvEs,
SPECIAL COMMITTEE To INvEsTIGATE TAx-ExEMPT FOUNDATIONS,
                                                   Washington, .7.
  The special committee met at 10 a. m ., pursuant to notice, in r
1301 of the House Office Building, Hon . Carroll Reece (chairman
the special committee) presiding .
  Present : Representatives Reece, Wolcott, Goodwin, Hays,
Pfost .
  Also present : Rene A. Wormser, general counsel ; Arnold T. K
associate counsel ; Norman Dodd, research director ; Katharyn Ca
legal analyst ; and John Marshall, Jr ., chief clerk of the spec
committee.
  The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order .
  This is the first session of this special committee . This commit
was created by House Resolution 217 of the 83d Congress, 1st sessi
which resolution describes its purposes as follows
  The committee is authorized and directed to conduct a full and complete
vestigation and study of educational an philanthropic foundations and o
comparable organizations which are exempt from Federal income taxatio
determine if any foundations and organizations are using their resources
purposes other than the purposes for which they were established, and e
cially to determine which such foundations and organizations are using th
resources for un-American and subversive activities ; for political purpo
propaganda ; or attempts to influence legislation .
  If agreeable I would like to ask the reporter to insert the en
resolution in the record for information .
  (The resolution is as follows :)
                      ,[H. Res . 217,83d Cong ., 1st seas.]
                                  RESOLUTION
  Resolved, That there is hereby created a special committee to be compose
five members of the House of Representatives to be appointed by the Spea
one of whom he shall designate as chairman. Any vacancy occurring in
membership of the committee shall be filled in the same manner in which
original appointment was made.
  The committee Is authorized and directed to conduct a full and comp
investigation and study of educational and philanthropic foundations and o
comparable organizations which aree exempt from Federal income taxati
determine if any foundations and organizations 'are using their resource
purposes other than the purposes for which they were established, and espec
to determine which such foundations and organizations are using their reso
for un-American and subversive activities ; for political purposes ; propaga
or attempts to influence legislation
   The committee shall report to thh House : (or to the .Clerk of,, the House i
House is not in session) on or before January 3, 1955, the results of Its'inves
tion. and study, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable :
                                                                            i
  authorized and directed to ascertain the location of all books, pa
  correspondence, and documents assembled by the former select com
  H . Res. 561, •, Eighty-second Congress, and take same into his custod
  such records with the Clerk under rule XXXVI . The Clerk of t
, hereby authorized to loan such records and files to . the special com
  lished by this resolution for the official use of the pecial committ
  Eighty-third Congress or until January 3, 1955, when they will be
  accordance with said rule .
   The CHAIRMAN . The study assigned to the committee is o
importance. A similar committee had been appointed by
during the previous Congress . I shall refer to it as the C
tee. The time allotted to the Cox committee was short and
The present committee was created largely because , of-thi
that the work of studying the foundations might be cont
greater degree of thoroughness .
   Because of the limitations of time and finances, we' ha
at this stage to confine ourselves to only some sections of
subject of foundations .
   The term encompasses many types of institutions, such as
ties, hospitals, churches, and so forth, except where peculi
stances dictate we shall limit our study to foundations a
connotes ordinarily in the public mind . A definition is dif
to name examples of such institutions, such as the Rockefell
tion, the Ford Foundation, and the Carnegie Foundation will
what we shall • ordinarily mean when we use the term "fo
in-these proceedings.
   Moreover, and again with an occasional exception, we sha
confine our attention to the work of foundations in what
the social sciences . Little criticism has come to us concerni
or other . foundation activities in the physical or exact sci
as medicne and physics. We shall of course consider breac
and abuses of what may be desirable conduct wherever we
We deem our function to be essentially and primarily fac
   The committee is unanimous in believing that foundatio
sirable institutions, that they have accomplished a great
benefit for the people of our country, and that nothing shou
to. decrease their effectiveness . There, havee been indieation
that foundations have 'not at all times acted in the best 'inte
people.' This-may'sometimes happen by intention, but far
probably; by negligence . Sometimes, also, there seem to
weaknesses in the very structure or conventional operation
tions as an institution which readily permit them to fall
times accidental and unintended, but serious error . As som
errors can, be very . serious and often fatal, it is our objectiv
seek out causes and reasons to the end, first, of disclosing pe
terial"of which the foundations themselves may not alway
is probable that the aggregate foundation control in the country
increase enormously in the ensuing years .
   If we shall not spend much time in exposition of what great amo
of good the foundations have admittedly done, it is because we dee
our principal duty fairly to seek out error . It is only through
process that good can come out of our work. It will be for Congr
the people, and the foundations themselves to judge the seriousnes
such error, and to judge also what corrective means, if any, shoul
taken. Our intention has been, and I wish to make this dou
clear, to conduct an investigation which may have constructive resu
and which may make foundations even more useful institutions t
they have been .
   In that statement, I have undertaken to set out the general purpo
of the work of the committee .
   The counsel has submitted some suggested rules of procedure, wh
have been sent to the members of the committee . Do the members
the committee feel that those rules are acceptable, or are there ot
you wish to prefer? If not, we can say they are adopted . Wha
your position?
   Mr. HAYS . ' I do not see anything objectionable, but there migh
something, we might want to add to them . We can consider t
adopted with the privilege of amending .
   The CHAIRMAN . Without objection, then, the rules of proce
su~~ested by the committee will be ado ted .
   M r. Goowiiv. The only suggestion 1 have, Mr . Chairman, is N
with reference to a quorum, `one member of each political party .
assumed that there would be no politics in this investigation, a
would be satisfied if that said, "one member of both the majori
and minority," just to leave the word "political" out .
   The CHAIRMAN . I think that that suggestion is a good one .
   Mr. HAYS . I have no objection .
  The CHAIRMAN . With that modification, the rules, without object
will stand as adopted, and if there are copies of these available for
press, of course the press will be entitled to have them, and they
be embodied in the proceedings .
   (The rules of procedure are as follows :)
                             RULES OF PROCEDURE

   The following rules have been adopted by the committee
1. Executive and public hearings
   A. General provisions : No hearing, either executive or public, shall be
unless all members of the committee have been notified thereof and eith
majority of the members, or one member of both majority and minority mem
ship is present.
2 . Subpenaing of witnesses
  A . Issuance of subpenas : Subpenas shall be signed and issued b
man of the committee, or any member of the committee designat
chairman .
  B . Service of subpenas : Every witness shall be subpenaed in a
sufficient time in advance of any hearing in order to give the witne
tunity to prepare for the hearing and employ counsel, should he so d
3. Testimony under oath
  All witnesses at public or executive hearings who testify as to mat
shall give all testimony under oath or affirmation . Only the ch
member of the committee shall be empowered to administer s
affirmation.
4. Advice of counsel
  A . At every hearing, public or executive, every witness shall be
privilege of having counsel of his own choosing .
  B . The participation of counsel during the course of any heari
the witness is testifying shall be limited to advising said witness as
rights. Counsel shall not be permitted to engage in oral argume
committee, but shall confine his activity to the area of legal advice t
5 . Statement of -witness
   A . Any witness desiring to make a prepared or written statem
record of the proceedings in executive or public sessions shall fi
such statement with the counsel of the committee within a reason
of time in advance of the hearing at which the statement is to b
  B . All such statements so received which are relevant and ger
subject of the investigation and of reasonable brevity may, upon
the conclusion of the testimony of the witness, by a majority vote
mittee members present, be inserted in the official transcript of the
6. Witness fees and travel allowance
  Each witness who has been subpenaed, upon the completion of hi
before the committee, may report to the office of the clerk of the
room 103, 131 Indiana Avenue NW ., Washington, D . C., and
appropriate vouchers for travel allowances and attendance fee
committee.
7 . Transcript of testimony
   A. A complete and accurate record shall be kept of all testimon
ceedings at hearings, both in public and in executive session .
  B . Stenographic transcripts of the testimony, when completed by
reporter, will be available for purchase by all those who may be i
procuring same.
   The CHAIRMAN. The general counsel of the committee is
Wormser, and associate counsel is Mr . Arnold Koch. Th
of research is Mr. Norman Dodd.
   Mr. Wormser, what do you suggest this morning?
 i 'Mr . WOEMSER. Mr. Chairman, by informal agreement with
mittee, we have suggested that Mr . Dodd take the stand first
to give the committee a sort of full report of the direct
our research has taken, and the reasoning behind the var
  Do we have copies of his statement?
  Mr. WORMSER . It has been physically impossible to get them
in final form at this moment. If you desire them, we can in
course of the afternoon prepare them for you .
  The CHAIRMAN. I understood they would be available this mor
  Mr. WORMSER . Counsel did not have time to read them . It
been quite an effort to get this done so fast. We can have the ne
sary corrections made, and have it ready tomorrow morning, any
Miss Casey thinks we can have it ready this afternoon .
  Mr. HAYS. Mr. Chairman, is there an agenda available at
witnesses will be called during the balance of the week and next w
  The CHAIRMAN . As I understand, Mr. Wormser expects Mr.
to consume, in the scope of his portion of the committee's opera
this morning's session, and tomorrow morning's session, and poss
Wednesday morning's session, and that when Mr . Dodd compl
his statement, then we will go over until, if agreeable with the
mittee, next Monday, so that Mr . Dodd will be the only witness
this period .
  All right, Mr. Dodd .
  Without objection, I think it is the understanding of the comm
that all of the witnesses will be sworn . Will you raise your hand
  I do solemnly swear.
  Mr. DODD. I do solemnly swear .
  The CHAIRMAN . The testimony I shall give shall be the truth
  Mr. DODD . That the testimony I shall give shall be the truth .
  The CHAIRMAN . The whole truth.
  Mr. DODD. The whole truth .
  The CHAIRMAN . And nothing but the truth .
  Mr. DoDD. And nothing but the truth .
  The CHAIRMAN. So help' me God.
  Mr. DoDD. So help me (Hod .
TESTIMONY OF NORMAN DODD, RESEARCH DIRECTOR, SPEC
  COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE TAX EXEMPT FOUNDATION
  Mr. WORMSER . Mr. Dodd, will you state your full name for
record?
  Mr. DoDD. Norman Dodd .
  Mr. WORMSER . I think that you are sufficiently identified as
director of research for this committee . Will you then tell the c
mittee the story of the direction of research, your approach to
problem, and the various steps which you took in conducting
research, please?
from the standpoint of their conformity to the intentions
donors, or from the standpoint of the truly American qualit
consequences.
  I also wish to acknowledge the cooperation which without
has been extended by foundations to the staff whenever it
necessary to solicit information from them, either direc
writing.
  And finally, I take this opportunity to state that in the
following report appears to be critical, I sincerely hope
deemed by the committee, foundations, and the public ali
constructively so .
   It was in this spirit that the work of which this report is
tion was undertaken and completed .
   Immediately the staff was assembled, studies were initiated
a full understanding of the ground which had been covered b
committee, as disclosed in the hearings which it held, the f
it maintained, and the report it rendered .
   To determine the dimensions of the subject to be invest
studied, and to satisfy myself as to the contents and its prob
fication, to define the words "foundation," "un-American,
sive," "political," and "propaganda," in the sense in which
used in House Resolution 217, and if possible to dispose of
troversial connotations ; to familiarize myself with the exp
purpose customarily used in foundation charters .
   I would like for a moment to go back to the first item wh
do with our effort to understand what the Cox committee ha
in the way of this subject, and also what its files contained
tion that one of the first situations or conditions with whi
confronted was the incompletion of the Cox committee files .
so marked that we had occasion to report the nature of that
tion to Mr. Snader, the Clerk of the House of Representative
   Mr. Wormser, with your permission, I would like to read
which we sent to Mr . Snader as a matter of record .
   Mr. WORMSER . Please do, sir . What isthe date of that let
   Mr. DoDD . This letter is dated January 26, 1954, and i
warded to Mr . Snader by Mr . McNiece, our assistant researc
who devoted a portion of his time to an intense study of th
This letter is to Mr . Snader, and from Mr . McNiece
   On December 1, 1953, Mr . John Marshall and I visited you in y
discuss the condition of the files of the Cox committee, as they were
to us . At this time we advised you that in our opinion the fil
complete, and it was understood that we would write you at a late
are now in a position to give some definite, but not necessarily comple
tion on this subject .
and we have no way of knowing positively what was in this section, but we
reason to believe that considerable material should have been in there
received it contained very little, and some of the indexed folders were
pletely empty.
   Statistical summaries : We know that considerable statistical work was
over a period of about 4 months, but we have found no statistical mat
whatever in the files .
   Reports of interviews : In its final report, the Cox committee states th
"interviewed personally more than 200 persons deemed to possess pert
information ."
   We would assume that a record of these interviews covering pertinent i
mation should be found in the files . We have found very little material
would conform to this description .
   Prepared statements : The Cox committee in its final report says that i
received the prepared statements of approximately 50 other persons d
to have had some knowledge of the subject. We find relatively little mat
of this nature in the files . As outlined to you in our conversation, we are c
this to your attentiion, because we wish to have it understood that we c
assume . responsibility for such material as may be missing from the fil
loaned to us.
   The CHAIRMAN. I think that that is very pertinent, especial
view of the fact that this committee now has the responsibilit
those files, and it is well for it to become part of the record, tha
of the files were not in the custody of the Clerk of the House of
resentatives when this committee was formed, and the committee
over only such files as were in his custody at the time .
   Does the committee have any other comment $
   Mr. Hays. Does the witness intend to attach some special si
cance to this, or is it just merely a report of what this commi
obtained?
   Mr. DODD . May I answer, sir?
   Mr. HAYS. Yes.
  'Mr. DODD. 'No significance ; merely a matter of record and for
poses of protection on the basis we assumed we were responsible
them, Mr . Hays.
   Mr. HAYS . I notice in the opening paragrap h, and perhaps
"second paragraph, it says, "In our opinion the files were incompl
It seems to me an inventory of what we received would be abou
much authority as we have over these files, one way or the other
   Mr. DoDD . We were concerned with identifying, . as best we c
the nature of the material that was missing, rather than just ta
an inventory of what was there .
   The CHAIRMAN . You may proceed .
   Mr. DoDD . Simultaneously, I undertook additional studies, o
determine the validity of the criticism which had been leveled ag
the work done by the Cox committee, and two, to substantiat
disprove the prevalent charge that foundations were guilty of f
itism in the making of educational grants, and three, to examine
 .resources approximating $71/2 billion, annual disburseme
 form of grants amounting to at least $300 million, a time
 years-that is, from 1903 to 1953-and a number of grants
 tively estimated at 50,000, with approximately 15 percent
 funds concentrated in 1/ 0 of 1 percent of the number of fo
                           2
 specifically Carnegie and Rockefeller, which happened t
 oldest .
    In content, I discovered the subject included grants for
 of charity, and support of research, within the limits of the
 sciences, and the religions and the philosophies, and the
 divisions of these well-known disciplines .
    It also embraced grants to cover the cost of such physical
 as school and university buildings, hospitals, churches, s
 houses, homes for recuperation, libraries and art galleries
 permanent collections housed in each .
    Finally I found that the subject included a myriad of fe
 awarded to scholars and artists active in fields too numero
 tion,, let alone classify for the purpose of accurate evaluati
    I might mention here, Mr . Wormser, that out of many of t
-tical compilations which we indulged in, we were able to g
 portray the growth of foundations, the growth of their ca
 sources, which show a marked growth and tend to support t
 man's opening statement that these could be expected to co
 grow from this point on .
    The CHAIRMAN . IS that too extensive to be include
record?
    Mr. DODD. That is a rather long report, Mr . Chairman, of
 we used to arrive at these estimates, but it certainly could b
in the record, if you would like .
    Mr. WORMSER . I suggest that it would be very valuable,
man to have it in cluded.
    Mr. HAYS . What is this again?
    Mr. DODD. It is a description, Mr . Hays, of the manner
 we had to resort for a reasonable working estimate of t
of foundations, the size of their resources, the rate at w
had grown since roughly 1903, and the rate at which th
resources of foundations had grown on an accumulative b
    Mr. WORMSER. Would you like it read, Mr . Chairman?
    Mr. HAYS . As I understand, it is a description of how
went at estimating the field that they had to work in, and i
pletely factual and no opinions .
    Mr. DODD. No opinions .
    Mr. HAYS. All right, I have no objection .
    The 'CHAIRMAN. Without objection, it will be embodi
record.
  Th'e Russell Sage Foundation has published some excellent studies in w
the actual data available have 'been limited to a relatively small nu
of foundations .
  The Cox committee reported that it had sent questionnaires to more
1,500 organizations . Based on the record in the files, there was a return
approximately 70 percent of these organizations . These returns have pro
the basis for the analysis in this report .
  The Internal Revenue Bureau every 4 years publishes a list of tax-e
org~maizations in the United; States . In the .intermediate, 2-year period a
plement .is published . The latest major list is revised - to June 30, 1950
the ,supplement to June 30, 1952 . These are the latest lists available a
present time' and it • will be some time after midyear of this year before
list is available . It' so happens that there is quite a close agreement bet
these publication dates just' mentioned and the effective dates of, the ques
naires from the Cox committee. A large number of them were as of Dece
31, 1951, and a small number at the end of some fiscal period prior to 1952
   Analysis of this Internal Revenue Bureau list indicates- that as of
period there were approximately 38,000 tax-exempt organizations in the .
'States . .A sampling of the pages in an attempt: to identify. foundations inc
in this list indicated that there may be nn approximate total of 6,3Q0 :. out o
38,000 organizations that might -be called, foundations . We believe' that w
within close Emits, of accuracy if we state that there are, between 6;000. and
foundations in existence as of this period.- -
                    ACCURACY OF DATA AND DERIVED ESTIMATES'
  It should be •r ealized that the ensuing tabulations cannot be accurate fro
                                                                        -
standpoint of good accounting standards . A large proportion of the
foundations is not endowed but derives its capital from    recurring contribut
Some endowments are reported at book value and ,others at market value.'
must be accepted as reported . It is believed that the greater . part of the
value is based on- market value. In the case of foundations with . capital o
million and over, essentially all are endowed,      -
  The' :questionnaires included in the analysis are of two types : the larg
form A as described by the Cox •committee. , Of the total of 952 included i
financial summaries, 65 cover foundations with capital in excess of $10 mi
and 887 of less than $10 million capital . Approximately 150 of the form A q
tionnaries were excluded from the financial summaries because informatio
capital, income, or both were omitted from the answers returned . These
included, however, in the numerical growth data .
  In- the tabulations of capital, endowment capital and current contribu
capital are added to : obtain total values .
                                                                 --
                             ESTIMATED TOTAL VALUES
   Data from 46 of the large foundations as included in this tabulation -were
ered by the large questionnaires . These are the big-name foundations and
Specifically and individually selected as such by the Cox committee . , The
values applying to this group were included without change in the grand t
  'Nineteen foundations with capital in excess of $10 million were includ
the tabulations with the 887 -that are under $10 million because nearly al
these were included with a form A questionnaire . This makes 906 quest
naires included inthe form A- group : and these are considered to be abo
percent of the total remaining foundations in the Bureau of Internal Re
list as previously mentioned .
values for each size classification listed. The values shown in
columns are 6.66 times their respective values in .the 2 prior column
the 46 large ones and the resulting grand total as previously mentio
                                                 TABLE I
                                         [In thousands of dollars]

   Endowment classification,' Form A         Number of Total en-         Total       Adjusted
             questionnaires                  foundations dowment 1      income        dowmen

Less than $50,000	                                  379        6,198        5,510        41,2
$50,000 to $99,999	                                  99        7,076        1,895        47,2
$100,000 to $249,999	                               125       19,348         5,389      128,
$250,000 to$499,999	                                 87       29,107        5,430       193,
$600,000 to $749,999 	                               34       20,604        3,355       137,
$`750,000to$999,999	                                 30       25,365        4,133     , 168,9
$1,000;O0oto$9,999,999	`	                           133     `38$,$68       43,509     2,586,5
$10,000;000 and over	                                19      304,882       17,667     2,029,4
      Total, Form A	                                906      800,948       86,888     5,333,3
Large questionnaires	                                46    2,129,746       96,062     2,129,7
      Grand total	                                  952    2,930,694      182,950     7,463,0
      Total, $10,000,000 and over	                   65    2,434, 623     113,729     4,159,1

  I "Endowment classification" includes endowments as well as contributions to none
tributory" foundations that were on hand as of end of calendar or fiscal year 1951 .
  Adjusted datainclude .total ;endowment-and income reported-on :~Form=A quektientlaire
6.66 because the 906 questionnaires included in the summary are estimated to be 15 percent o
in the tax-exempt list.

   It will be noted that the estimated total capital for the fou
nearly $7.5 billion and total annual income nearly $675 million . Bo
figures will be subject to considerable variation from year to year,
cause of the proportion of "contributory" foundations in the smaller
because of varying earnings between good years and bad .
  The proportions or percentages of foundations, their capital and
in each capital classification as well as the percentage of income t
each class are shown in table Ii .
                              TABLE    II .-Percentage distribution

                                                          Percent of Percent of Percent
   Endowment classification, Form A questionnaires           total    adjusted   adjuste
                                                           number endowment incom

Less than $50,000	                                              39 .8        0.5            5
$50,000 to $99,999 	                                            10 .4         .7            1
$100,000 to $249,999 	                                          13 .2        1.7            5
$250,000 to $499,999 	                                           9 .1        2 .6           5
$500,000 to $749,999 	                                           3.8         1.8            3
$750,000 to $999,999 	                                           3 .1        2 .3           4
$1,000,000 to $9,999,M 	                                        14.0        34.7           43
$10,000,000 and over 	                                           2 .0       27.2           17
      Total, Form A	                                            95 .2       71.5           85
Large questionnaires	                                            4.8        28.5           14
     Grand total	                                              100 .0      100.0          100
     Total, $10,000,060andover	                                  6 .8       55.7           31
  An interesting feature of this table is that the ratio of income to cap
decreases quite steadily as the capital classification increases as woul
expected from - the foregoing remarks. This decrease is evident in the
column of table I.
  The great increase in foundations created in the decade of 1940-49 Is feat
by the large percentage* of small foundations which in turn and as previo
stated are composed of a higher percentage of nonendowed or contribut
foundations. Based on the answers to the Cox committee questionnaires,
following comparative figures apply
Nonendowed foundations created :                                   Percent of
                                                                           ._
    Decade 1930-39	
    Decade 1940-49	
                   CHARACTERISTIC DATA . ON LARGE FOUNDATIONS
  Table III which follows show a data applying to the 65 foundations whose c
tal is $10 million and over
                                      TABLE III
Number of foundations	
Original capital 1	                                        $590
191951 capital s	                                        $2,434,62
Ratio 1951 capital to original capital 	
Average annual total income, 1946 to 1951, inclusive 	$113,72
Ratio annual income to 1951 capital 	
Cash on hand, 1951	..	$40,55
Cash, percent of income	
Perpetual capital life	                                  $1,120,20
Limited capital life	                                       $99,77
Conditional capital life 	                               $1,214,74
Percent perpetual capital life 	
Percent limited capital life 	
Percent conditional, capital life	
Number of corporations	
Number of trusts	                                     r-
Number of associations	
Number of operating foundations 	
Number of nonoperating foundations 	
Number of combination foundations 	
Average "capital per foundation 	                           $37,40
Average income per foundation	                               $1,74
  i Includes capital of endowed and nonendowed foundations .
   This table calls for little comment . The slight discrepancy between the fi
of 5 .1 percent in table II and 4 .7 percent in table III for earnings as perce
capital is explained by the larger percentage of "adjusted" earnings estim
for the 19 large foundations included in Form A group as compared with th
In the large group.
   As previously outlined, contributions to the nonendowed organizations
considered as income and unexpended funds largely constitute the capital in
of securities in the portfolios of endowed organizations . This results in a h
ratio of income to -capital than, prevails in the endowed organizations .
   It is also of interest to note the relative proportions of foundation capit
cluded in the perpetual, limited and conditional life classifications .
1900. . The trend is . essentially horizontal for these large foundatio
                               GROWTH OF LARGE . FOUNDATIONS

  The rate ;of growth both,numerically and in capital values of
#put d tlohs during the last 50 years is shown in table IV.
jasi   IV .-Foundations with capital $1Q million and over (includes
                          reporting on questionnaires)
                                          [In thousands of dollars]


                 Number     1951 en-      1951 accu-                         Number    1951
 Year created    created     do w-                        Year created       created     mow
                             went        endowment                                      wen

19,00 ;---`	    --------- 	              ------------        	`	`--                4   $52,
1901	           ----------	              ------------        	                     4    56,
1902----` 	     ----------	              ------------        	                     1    30.
1903	           ---------- 	             ------------        	                     1    11,
1904	           ---------- 	             ------------        	                     4   125.
;905	                     1   $11,769    ------------    1931	                     1     12,
1906	                     1    10,856         $22,625   1932	                      1     15,
A07	                      1    16,376          39,001   1933	                     0 ------
1908	                     1    13,173          52,174   1934	.                    3      54,
1909	                     2    26,662          78,836   1935	                     0 ------
1 10	                     0 ----------         78,836   1936	                     4    548,
1911	                     1   160,897         239,733   1937	                     2     66,9
1912	                     1 , 10,545          250,278   1938	                     2     57,2
A913	                     2   335,126         585,404   1939	                     0 -------
1914	                     1    17,118         602,522   1940	                     2     29,3
1915	                  - 0 --- ------         602,522   1941__ .	:_-              3     55,1
1916	                    0 ---------          602,522   1942	                     0 ----___
1917	                    2     28,391         630,913   1943	                     0 -------
t918	                    1     81,170         712,083   1944	                     0 -------
1919	                    1     44,762         756,845   1945	                     2     27,2
1920	                    1     16,673         773,518   1946	                     1     14,0
1021	                    1     13,703         787,221   1947	                     1     14,5
1922	                    0 --_-__-__          787,221   1948	                     3   154,3
1923	.                   3     41,868         829,089   1949	                     1     16,8
024	                     2    210,418       1,039,507   1950	                     0 ___ .	
I=	                      2     41,685       1,081,192   1951	.                    1     10,3
                                                             Total .	    I       65 -------
Kresge
Duke	                                                      1924                40,000
Kellogg	                                                   1930                22, 000
Ford	                                                      1936                25,000
Hayden	                                                    1937                17,000
Pew	                                                       1948                46,000

    a
                                             HART 1 •

                 FINANGAL GROWTH
                       0
    21~_         65 FO DATIONS
                      WITH
    zI          NDOWMENTS "%O Ml LUON
                 AND OVER AS 01 1951
                       VA L. UES



                       ACCUMULATED GROWTH
    ~~                       AT 19S/ VALUES
    Iri



h
Q
Q
J
J
O I7OC
4
a 10C
y low
2
O set
-4

Z


    aoe                                                           ANNUAL GROWTH
                                                                  AT /95/ VALUES-
    ax

    Xk
                     , i I            I                                    i
         wen Isos   010 1949    law   I92s    Mao   lair     0       I0r                 Iecr
          49720-54-pt. 1-2
                                 A,ceumu-
                        Number     fated'                          Nu
                                  number

Prior to 1900	                                 1926	
1900	
                              9
                              0 ----------9    1927	
1901	                         0           9    1928	
1902	                         0           9    1929	
1903	                         1 .        10    1930	
1904	                         0          10    .1931	
1905	                         1          11    1932	
1906	                         1          12    1933	
1907	                         1          13    1934	
1908	                         3          16    1935	
1909	                         3          19    1936	
1910	                         1         20     1937	
1911	                         3         23,    1938	
1912	                         3         26''   1939 :	
1913	                         2         28     1940	
1914	                         2         30     1941	
1915	                         5         35     1942	
1916	                         3         38     1943	
1917	                         4         42     1944	
1918	                         6         48     1945	
1919	                         7         55     1946	
1920	                         4         59     1947	
1921	                         6         65     1948	
1922	                         4         69     1949	
1923	                        11         80     1950	
1924	                         7         87     1951	
1926	                         8


  The high peak centering in 1945 Is composed preponderantly of
foundations and is apparently a byproduct of a change in the tax
a profitable period in the American economy . Due to the sharp d
1945, the trend of the accumulated increase curve has flattened consid
1948.
                                      ANNUAL INCREASE ,
    n
                                                 y'~1 i


1   x                                                                 I



                                                                   II :
                                                                          rI
                                                               I      S;
1                                                                          1                    t
                                                                           1                    h
                                                                           1                    Q
                                                                            1
                                                                                                U
                                                                                                Z
                                                                               1                W
                                                                                1               Q

                                                                                                2

                         ACCUMULATED INCREASE
    1                                                                               1
                                                           I                            1
    1
                                                       1                                1
    I                                 /           .'V                                       1


                                          t


        I   IV"   lslo    ISZO   9t    I93p     1940
  M . D . Anderson Foundation	                          1936          1,231        424
  AvalonFoundation	                                     1940             687       470
  Hall Brothers Foundation	                             1926            232        975
  Louis D . Beaumont Foundation	                        1949             701       416 _
  Buhl Foundation .	                                   1927             581'       315
  Carnegie .Corp . of New York	                         1911         5,941         425
  Carnegie Endowment for International Peace 	          1910            646-'      117
  Carnegie Foundation for Advancement of teaehing       1906         1,698 ---------- ____
  Carnegie Institution	                                1926             989        109
  A . C . Carter Foundation 	                        - 1945          1,734         570 _
  CullenFoundation	                                    1947          1,171         760
  The Commonwealth Fund	                               1918          1,996      1,235
  Danforth Foundation	                                 1927             865          23
  Dormer Foundation	                                   1945             697       403
  Duke Endowment	                                      1924          4,913        816
  El Pomar Foundation	                                 1937             507       169
  Maurice and Laura Falk Foundation 	                  1929             417       226
  Samuel S. Fels Fund	                                 1936             248       332       1
  The Field Foundation	                                1940             696       449
  Max C . Fleischman Foundation	                       1951                9          1
  Ford Foundation	                                   1936          29,061      2,580.
  Henry Clay Frick Educational Commission 	           1909               62       307       4
  Firestone Foundation	                               1947               57    1,575     2,7
  General Education Board 	                           1903              520       788       1
  Edwin'(lould'Foundation for Children                1923              315       241
            Guggenheim              	_-               1925 1937      1,083        461
 Solomon R . Guggenheim                               1937.            108         84
 John A . Hartford Foundation	                        1929               88       702      7
  Charles Hayden Foundation 	                         1937          1,746         800
 Louis and Maud Hill Family Foundation	               1934             334    (7)         (
 Eugene Higgins Scientific Trust 	                    1948          1,000      7)         (7
 Hbl3tonEndowment 	                                  1937           1,622         435
 Godfrey M. Hyams Trust	                             1921              601        480
1Institutefor Advanced Study	 - 1930 -                                 687        374
 James Foundation of New York	                       1941           2,130      3,388       1
 Juilliard Musical Foundation 	                      1920              519       390
 Henry J . Kaiser Family Foundation 	                1948               13       '83      6
 W . K . Kellogg Foundation	                         1930          3,253         356
 KresgeFoundation	                                   1924 ,        4,776      1,094
 Kate Macy Ladd Fund	                                1946              440        249
 E . D. Libbey Trust	                                1925              565         51
,Ldly Endowment_                                     1937           1,462        826      -
bohn and Mary Markle Foundation__ .	1927                              728            2
Josiah Macy Foundation_ :	                           1930              378         65
A . W . Mellon Educational-and Charitable Trust____  1930          1,763         644
                            r-       b	              1927          3,568         274
              l
 R .e K. Mellon Foundation	                          1947           , 482        250      .5
Millbank Memorial Fund___ -               _	         1905              601       841       1
William H : Minor Foundation	                        1923          1,052           87
Charles Stewart Mott Foundation 	                   1926               420 -- 1,562 - - 37
William Rockhill Nelson Trust	                      1926               633         77
New York Foundation	. .	                            1909               465 -     719       1
Old Dominion Foundation 	                           1941               669       301
Olin Foundation	                                    1938               978    2,650       27
Permanent Charity Fund	                             1917              367        181        4
Pew Memorial Foundation	                            1948           4,125         487
Z . S . Reynolds Foundation 	                       1936              376           9
RockefellerFoundation	                              1913          11,364      6,535         5
Rosenberg Foundation 	                              1935               196       424.     21
Sarah Mellon Scaife Foundation	                     1941              200           1
Russell Sage Foundation	                            1907              542        381        7
Alfred P . Sloan Foundation	                        1934           1,329      1,747       13
Surdna Foundation	                                  1917              756        558        7
Twentieth Century	                                  1919              457        657      14
Estate of Harry C . Trexler	                        1934              433        242    . 55
William C . Whitney Foundation 	                    1936                75        10        1
William VolkerCharities	                            1932           1,027      1,032       10

   It is believed that the data portrayed in this report, while not
accuracy, are sufficiently representative of actual conditions to prov
able guidance in appraising the magnitude of the problems invol
should assist in the consideration of any suggestions that may seem adv
possible legislative action.
                                                                T. M.
versive were defined as any action having as its purpose the alterat
of either the principle or the form of the United States Government
other than constitutional means . This definition was derived fro
study of this subject which had been made by the Brookings Instit
at the request of the House Un-American Affairs Committee so
time ago .
    Political : Any action favoring either a candidacy for public of
or legislation or attitudes normally expected to lead to legislat
action .
    Propaganda : Action having as its purpose the spread of a parti
lar doctrine or a specifically identifiable system of principles, and
noted that in use this word had come to infer half-truths, incompl
truths, as well as techniques of a covert nature . .
    Mr. WORMSER . Pardon me, Mr. Dodd. I would like to interpo
at this, moment that .we have asked the Bureau of Internal Revenue
give us what guidance they can in their own interpretation of th
difficult terms, particularly the terms "subversion" and "political
of propaganda ." They have not yet come forward with that mater
T hope they do, and we shall introduce it in the record if they prod
it.
  . Mr. DoDD . These were essentially working definitions from the po
of view of the staff's research and are not to be regarded as conclusi
. Charter provisions : The purposes of foundations were revealed
these studies to be generally of a permissive rather than a mandat
character . Customarily they were . expressed to place the burde
interpretation on either trustees or directors. Such words as edu
tional, charitable, welfare, scientific, religious, were used pred
nantly to indicate the areas in which-grants were permitted . Phra
such as "for the good of humanity," and "for the benefit of mankin
occurred quite frequently. The advancements of such general c
cepts as peace and either international accord or international und
standing as a purpose for which foundations had been established
    To illustrate the extent to which the burden of interpretation
 frequently placed on trustees of foundations, I cite the following
  Administered and operated by the trustees exclusive for the benefit of it,
income therefrom shall be distributed by the trustees exclusively in the ai
such religious, educational, charitable, and scientific uses and purposes as
the judgment of the trustees, shall be in, furtherance of the public welfare
tend to assist, encourage, and promote the well-doing or the well-being of
kind or of any community .
  Cox committee criticism : From our point of view there seemed to
eight criticisms which had been made of the work of the Cox c
mittee . These eight were that time and facility had been inadequ
that excuses concerning grants to Communists had been too read
accepted ; that trustees and officers had not been placed under oa
thing of the order of when did you stop beating your wif
  Mr. DODD. Yes . I mention that because it had come to
tion.
  The CHAIRMAN . As I understand, you are now readin
report of the Cox committee, or the substance of it ; is that
  Mr. DODD . No. I am just summarizing, Mr . Chairman,
of the criticisms which had come to our attention with res
work of the Cox committee .
  Mr. HAYS . That question implies that the foundations g
to anything that was pro-American .
  Mr . DODD . Yes ; it does. That is one of the criticisms .
  Mr . HAYS. Where did the criticism come from? Is it t
of the staff,' or where did you dig it up?
  Mr. DODD . No. This criticism, as we understood it was
eral made of the work of the Cox committee by Mr. Reece.
  Mr. HAYS . If he wants to accept it as his criticism, that i
I just want to know the source of it . Just be sure that I a
ciated with it, because I don't like those kinds of questions
know whether they gave anything to nro-American activit
but I have my opinion that they probably did .
  Mr. Donna Yes. The next one was that extensive evide
been used, and finally, that the Ford Foundation had not
ciently investigated .
  Foundation criticisms : Our studies indicated very cl
and why a critical attitude might have developed from t
tion that foundations operating within the sphere of edu
been guilty of favoritism in making their grants . Af
analyzed responses relating to this subject from nearly
colleges in the United States, it became reasonably eviden
a few had participated in .the grants which had_ been, m
  Mr . HAYS . I have a question right there . You say a
colleges . How many questionnaires did you send out?
  Mr. DODD. Approximately that number.
  Mr. HAYS . You got practically complete response?
  Mr. DODD . We got a very high percentage of respons
  Mr. HAYS. What percentage?
  Mr. DODD . I would say the last I heard, Mr . Hays, was
in the neighborhood of 70 percent .
  Mr. HAYS . I just wanted that in the record so when the
gate foundations in the next Congress nobody will say
missed certain ones .
  Mr. DODD . Incidentally, a mathematical tabulation of t
of, those questionnaires is in the process of being complet
  However, when the uniqueness of the projects supported
tions was considered, it became understandable why institu
of teaching which lately has attracted the attention of the Ameri
public has apparently been caused primarily by a premature e
fort to reduce our meager knowledge of social phenomena to t
level of applied science .
  As this report will hereafter contain many statements which app
to be conclusive, I emphasize here that each one of them must
understood to have resulted from studies which were essentially
ploratory . In no sense should they be considered as proof . I m
tion this in order to avoid the necessity of qualifying each statem
as made.
  Confronted with the foregoing seemingly justifiable conclusio
and the task of assisting the committee to discharge its duties as
forth in House Resolution 217 within the 17-month period, August
1953, to December 31, 1954, it became obvious that it would be
possible to perform this task if the staff were to concentrate on the
ternal practices and the grant making policies of foundations th
selves . It also became obvious that if the staff was to render
service for which it had been assembled, it must expose those fac
which were common to all foundations and reduce them to terms wh
would permit their effect to be compared with the purposes set fo
in foundation charters, the principles and the form of the Uni
States Government, and the means provided by the Constitution
altering either these principles or this form.
  In addition, these common factors would have to be expressed
terms which would permit a comparison of their effects with t
activities and interests connoted by the word "political," and a
with those ordinarily meant by the word "propaganda ." Our eff
to expose these common factors revealed that there was only o
namely, the public interest .
   It further revealed that, if this finding were to prove useful to
committee,' it would be necessary to define the public interest .
believe this would be found in the principles and the form of
Federal Government as expressed in our Constitution, and in o
basic founding documents . This will explain why subsequent stud
were made by the staff of the size, the scope, the form, and the fu
tions of the Federal Government for the period 1903-53, the resu
     s
of which are set forth in detail in the report by Thomas M. McNi
assistant research director, entitled "The Economics of the Pub     _
Interest."
   These original studies of the public interest disclose that dur
the 4 years 1933-36 a change took place which was so drastic as
constitute a revolution . They also indicated conclusively that
responsibility for the economic welfare of the American people
been "transferred heavily to the executive branch of the Federal G
ernment, that a corresponding change in education had taken pl
 obliged by statute to serve the public interest would reflec
 nomenon, and second, that foundations whose trustees wer
 to make grants for educational purposes would be no exce
    On the basis of these, after consultation with counsel,
 the staff to explore foundation practices, educational proc
 the operation of the executive branch of the Federal
 since 1903 for reasonable evidence of a purposeful relat
 tween them.
r Our ensuing studies disclosed such a relationship and
 existed continuously since the beginning of this 50-year
 addition, these studies seemed to give evidence of a resp
 involvement in international affairs . Likewise, they seeme
 that grants had been made by foundations, chiefly by Ca
 Rockefeller, which had been used to further this purpose by
 ing education in the United States toward an internation
 reference and discrediting the traditions to which it had
 cated, by training individuals and servicing agencies to re
 to the executive branch of the Federal Government, by
 the dependency of education upon the resources of the
 munity, and freeing it from many of the natural safeguar
 in this American tradition, by changing both school a
 curricula to the point where they sometimes denied the
 underlying the American way of life, by financing exper
 signed to determine the most effective means by which
 could be pressed into service of a political nature .
    At this point the staff became concerned with (1) iden
 the elements comprising the operational relationship bet
 dations, education, and government, and determining the o
 which this relationship had been dedicated, and the func
 formed by each of its parts (2) estimating the cost of this r
 and discovering how these costs were financed . Underst
 administration of this relationship and the methods by w
 'controlled (3) evaluating the effect of this operational
 upon the public interest and upon the social structure of
 States (4) comparing the practices of foundations actively
 this relationship with the purposes for which they were e
 and with the premises upon which their exemption from t
 the Federal Government is based .
   In substance this approach to the problem of providing
 tee with a clear understanding of foundation operations c
 described as one of reasoning from a total effect to its
 secondary causes . We have used the scientific method an
 both inductive and deductive reasoning as a check against
 bility that a reliance upon only one of these might lead
 neous set of conclusions.
which can be classed as un-American, have they used their resour
for purposes which can be regarded as subversive, have they used th
resources for political purposes, and finally, have they resorted
propaganda in order to .achieve the objectives for which they h
made grants.
  To insure these determinations being made on the basis of imp
sonal fact, I directed the staff to make a study of the development
American education since the turn of the century, and of the tre
and techniques of teaching, and of the development of curricula si
that time . As a result it became quite evident that this study wo
have to be enlarged to include the accessory agencies to which th
developments and trends have been traced . The work of the staff
then expanded to include an investigation of such agencies as
American Council of Learned Societies, the National Research Co
cil, the Social Science Research Council, the American Council
Education, the National Education Association, the League for Ind
trial Democracy, the Progressive Education_ Association, the Ame
can Historical Association, the John Dewey Society, and the An
defamation League.
  Mr. Wormser, that covers the start and the scope and the man
in which the work of the staff proceeded, and also constitutes the b
from which such findings as it will from time to time provide y
with, were developed .
  The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Goodwin.
  Mr. GOODWIN . I would like to reserve the right to comment la
on some portions of the data which Mr . Dodd has just submitted,
having an opportunity to see it in writing. I have particular ref
ence to that portion of the data which he has presented which refer
to criticisms of the Cox committee. It so happens, Mr . Chairman,
you know, I was a member of the Cox committee. If what he says
as I understand it to be said, with reference to criticisms that h
been made, that the effect of that only is that somebody said so
thing about what the Cox committee had done or failed to do, I p
sume I have no objections . But I would like to see it actually be
me, and at that time I may want to have some comment to make
  The CHAIRMAN . Quite so .
  Mr. DODD . Mr . Goodwin, it does refer to that type of thing .
wish to put this committee in a position, if possible, to underst
whether those were justified or not justified .
  Mr. HAYS. Mr. Chairman .
  The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hays .
  Mr. HAYS. It seems to me as I listened quite carefully to Mr . Do
statement, that there were several charges in there that repres
rather a serious indictment of foundations . It is difficult to ques
Mr. Dodd or anyone else about a prepared statement without hav
pletes the • statement that he prepared to make, unless Mr
and Mr. Koch, you have further questions-the House a
in session at noon-I think the Chair would think that we
as well recess so that by morning the statement will be pre
  Mr. WORMSER. Mr. Chairman, I like Mr . Hays' sugge
much . I deeply regret that we could not have copies at the
of the hearing this morning . We can have them this after
can have not only copies of the statement as far as it went
what Mr. Dodd expects to present tomorrow.
  Mr. HAYS . I would certainly appreciate it, and I thin
expedite the work of the committee if he is going to have
statement tomorrow to have it in our hands at least by m
would facilitate matters if we could have a copy tonigh
  Mr. WORMSER. I quite agree . I think we can give it
tonight.
  The CHAIRMAN . The Chair apologizes for the statement
available, as it was his understanding that it would be ava
  Mr . HAYS . I am not blaming the Chair.
  The CHAIRMAN . Yes, I understand. I assume without h
information that it was due to the element of time . The
then will stand adjourned until 10 o'clock tomorrow morni
same room through the courtesy of the chairman of the
on Banking and Currency, and Mr . Hays, who is also a
the committee.
   (Thbre'upon at 11 a.'tn., a recess was taken until Tuesday
1954, at 10 a . m .)
                          HOUSE dt' RurRts:kiiTATivES,
                       SPECIAL CoMMIrrEz To INVESTIGATE
                                   TAX-EXEMPT FOUNDATIONS,
                                                   Washington, D.
   The special subcommittee met at 10 a . mn pursuant to recess
room 1301 of the House Office Building, Hon . Carroll Reece (chai
of the special committee) presiding .
   Present : Representatives Reece, Wolcott, Hays, and Pfost.
   Also present : Rene A . Wormser, general counsel ; .Arnold T. K
associate counsel ; ; Norman Dodd, research director ; Kathryn Ca
legal analyst ; and John Marshall, ' Jr chief clerk of the spe
committee.
   The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.
   Mr. Wormser, as I understand, Mr . Dodd will resume this morn
   Mr. WoRMSER . Yes, Mr. Chairman . Will you take the stand,
'Dodd, please.
'TESTIMONY, OF NORMAN DODD, RESEARCH DIRECTOR, SPEC
  COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE TAX EXEMPT FOUNDATION
  Resumed
    The CHAIRMAN . You may proceed, Mr . Dodd .
    Mr. DpDD Thank ,you, Mr . Chairman.
    Mr. HAYS. Mr. Chairman, before Mr . Dodd goes on with his st
-ment of which we have a copy today, there are 2 or 3 questions a
leis Statement yesterday which have occurred to me since I have
  a chance to look at the record . I wonder if it might be well to
- those in the record now?
    The CHAIRMAN . Yes ; I think so .         °
    Mr. HAYS . I think it is mainly to clarify some of the things
  were said . Mr . Dodd, one of the things you said yesterday was
  only a few foundations were investigated by the Cox commit
          o
'Could ~, u give us a figure on that?
    Mr. DODD, Offhand in any accurate terms, I do not think so,
Bays, .'but..e pared . to,tbhe;number of foundatiuns. that, are-invol
the committee had very little time and relatively very few were stu
  I should say probably 10 .
    Mr. HAYS . . You think about 101
    Mr. DODD. I think about 10 . Yes, Sir. They had questionna
-on almost 900 of them, Mr . Hays .
                                                                 23,
investigated, rather, we communicated with probably 60 or
largest ones, just to see whether or not any pattern was d
and discovered that they vary so much, one from the othe
could not go at it from that standpoint . There was no
sampling which would, in my judgment, end in any fair
of them .
   Mr. HAYS. To get back to my question, how many will
to cover, I do not expect you to be definite .
   Mr. DODD. In the ordinary sense that a deep investiga
single foundation is concerned, I would say not more than 1
   Mr . HAYS . Another thing you said yesterday in response
tion of mine was that you had received replies from 700
That is replies to a questionnaire that you had sent out .
tell me offhand how many of those colleges replying re
grants?
   Mr. DODD . No, Sir, I cannot yet, because the tabulation
been completed.
   Mr. HAYS . But they will be available later
   Mr. DODD . They will be available in very complete for
   Mr. HAYS . I have one more question . We discussed a
yesterday this matter of your statement that the founda
not been asked why they did not support projects of a pr
type .
   Mr. DODD . That was one of the criticisms .
   Mr. HAYS . Yes . I objected to that because I do not like
of question, but it might well be, since it is in the record,
it is a statement that you attribute to the chairman of the
if we could have along with your other definitions the defi
what you mean by pro-American.
   The CHAIRMAN . Will the gentleman yield?
   Mr. HAYS . Yes .
   The CHAIRMAN . Since that question came up, I have take
to review the speech of mine to which it referred, and th
language preceding the quotation of the 12 criticisms that we
and I am quoting
  The committee (referring to the previous so-called Cox commit
report to the House, House Report 2554, listed 12 complaints and c
foundations in the form of the following questions .
And I simply quoted from what was contained in the rep
House committee . So that they, were not original criticis
  By what I ., say now, however, I am not disavowing .th
I might accept the criticisms . I just want to get the reco
with reference to what was the basis for the so-called 12 c
whicip were raised yesterday . They were taken from the
the House by the previous committee .
     The CHAIRMAN . Yes . It is so-called part 1, stating that the
   and facilities were inadequate and goes down to part 2, I presum
     Mr. HAYS. Yes .
     The CHAIRMAN . So far as I am concerned ., I would be glad to
   the whole speech put in the record .
     Mr. HAYS. I have no objection .
     The CHAIRMAN Without objection, it will- be so ordered.
     Mr . RAYS .' Just make sure it'islabeled yourspeech.
      (The speech referred to is as follows :)
       Mr . R        of Tennessee . Mr . Speaker, I do not say this lightly but i
    opinion, the subject embraced in House , Resolution ,217, now before us, is o
   the very important matters pending in Washington .
       No one seems to know the number of tax-exempt foundations . There
   -probably 300,000 foundations and organizations which have great tax exempt
       These exemptions cover inheritances, income, and capital-gains taxes .
       The majority of these organizations are honestly and efficiently condu
     In the past, they have made a magnificent contribution to our national life
I •the past, the majority have justified these tax exemptions, even though
     probable cost to thetaxpayers runs into the billions . .
       Certainly, the Congress has a right and a duty to inquire into the purposes
f `conduct of institutions to"which'the taxpayers have made such great sacrif
       In any event, the Congress should concern itself with certain weaknesses
    dangers which have arisen in a minority of these .
       Some of these activities and some of these institutions support efforts to o
    throw our Government and to undermine our American way of life.
       These activities urgently require investigation . Here lies the story of
    communism and socialism are financed in the United States, where they get
    -money. It is the story of who pays the bill.
       There is evidence to show there is a diabolical conspiracy back of all
   Its aim is the furtherance of socialism in the United States .
       Communism is only a brand name for socialism, and the Communist s
     represents itself to be only the true form of socialism .
       The facts will show that, as, usual, ifis the ordinary , taxpaying. citize
 . -foots most of the bill, not the Communists and Socialists, who know only
    to spend money, not how to earn it .
       The method by which this is done seems fantastic to reasonable men,
    these Communists and Socialists seize control of fortunes left behind by
   talists when they die, and turn these fortunes around to finance the destru
     of capitalism .
       The Members of this House were amazed when they read just recently
7 appropriated $15 million to bEand newest of the tax-free investigating powe
     the Ford Foundation, largest
                                      used to "investigate" the
                                                                 trust funds, had
     Congress, from the critical point of view .
       The-Members of the House Committee on Un-American Activities, of
    Judge Velde is chairman, have a great deal of personal knowledge, gain
     hours spent in listening to sworn testimony from Communists and ex-
     munists, and those who seek refuge in the fifth amendment, as to the exten
   the treasonous conspiracy in our Nation .
       No 'Congressman, who has gone through such experiences, could fail
     alarmed at-the fact that $15 million from the fortune of the late Henry
     who probably hated communism more than any other American of his day,
     to be expended to attack the Congress for inquiring into the nature and ex
    .of the Communist conspiracy, on grounds that Congress was "abridging c
                                 . To give it liberal respectability, Mr. P
      former president of the Ford Foundation,, was made chairmann o
      sized Civil Rights Congress endowed by the Ford Foundation . T
      the Republic, as this Ford Foundation agency is named, has ann
      it will make grants for an immediate and thorough investigation
         During the last few weeks of the 82d Congress, a select committ
      Members of the House conducted-pursuant to House Resolution
      what hasty, limited, and abbreviated inquiry into the administratio
      tax-exempt foundations, including the huge Ford Foundation . ,
         The House passed the resolution to,create this select committee
      1952, and on July 2, 1952, by a vote of 247 to 99, voted $75,000 . f
      gation . But actually, the counsel and the staff onlystarted its' w
      September, an~j_}-thus, had only 4 months to carry out the task . e
     it by Congress . Hearings were started late in November and only 1
     devoted to hearing witnesses .
         The select committee's work was further handicapped by the fa
     chairman,' Hon . Eugene E . Cox, who was primarily-responsible for
     of the select committee, fell ill during the hearings and died befo
     mittee submitted its final report to Congress . I was prevented fro
     these hearings, as a minority member of the select committee, by ser
     in my family.
         The select committee of the 82d Congress filed its report on Janu
     In signing the report, I inserted a notation at its end with the distin
     of introducing a resolution to continue the investigation of foun
     their subversive activities in this Congress . Pursuant to this notati
     duced on April 23, 1953, a House Resolution 217, to create a . commi
     Congress to conduct a full and complete investigation and study o
     foundations .
        In introducing this resolution, I         e some remarks on the w
     select committee of the 82d Congres So that my colleagues may be
     wttii-what was revealed by this elect committee without reading
     pages of testimony and documents of the hearings, which has
     presented the following summary of what was disclosed
        First. The evidence presented at• the hearings in this case by swor
     indicated that at least in one case, even some of the trustees of
    legitimate foundation, with over $10 million in assets, were Commu
        Second . The hearings disclosed that some officers of large and
    legitimate foundations were Communists .
        Third . Numerous Communists have received grants from founda
     tered by the Congress of the United States, and in some instances
    munists received grants from more than one foundation.
        Fourth. Foundation grants have been given to many organizations
    by the Attorney General of the United States as Communists, or exp
    investigations of committees of the Senate and House as subversive o
    subject to Communist Party discipline and control . A primary exam
    is the Institute of Pacific Relations, exposed by the Senate Inter
    Subcommittee as subject to Communist discipline, which has receive
J W $2% million from various foundationy     q._J
       When Introducing House . Resolution '217, I listed some of the o
    faults of the work of the select . committee of the 82d Congress wh
    remedied by this Congress. ,, I'. feel that .these : omissions and faults
    be brought to the attention of the House, . and that I should • not on
    these faults and omissions, but should point out what the proposed
    committee of this Congress intends to do to remedy them .
  4. Have •foundations: supported or assisted persons, organizations, and proje
which, if not subversive in the extreme-,sensp • of that ;word, . .tend to weaken,
discredit the capitalistic system as it exists in the United, States and to fa
Marxist socialism?
  5. Are trustees of foundations absentee landlords who have delegated, th
                               paid employees
duties and responsibilities tos of. the foundations?
  e. Do foundations . tend to be controlled by interlocking : directorates compo
primarily of individuals residing in .      North. and,Middle-Atlantic, States?
                                                               .
  7 . Through their power to grant and withhold funds, have foundaions ten
to shift the center, of gravity of colleges and other institutions to a point outs
the institutions themselves?
  8. Have foundations favored internationalism?
  9, To what extent are foundations spending American money. , in fore
countries?
  10. ~ Do foundations recognize that -they are in the nature of public' trusts
are, therefore, accountable to the public, or do they clothe their activities
secrecy and resent andrepulse efforts to learn about them and their activit
. 11 . Are -foundations being used as a device by which the control of great c
porations are kept within the family of the foundation's founder or creat
  12. To what extent are foundations being used as a device for tax avoida
and tax evasion?
  Before attempting to answer any of these questions, the report of the c
mittee of the 82d Congress immediately points out
  In dealing with these questions, the committee, . recognizes all too clea
that which must be apparent to any intelligent observer, namely, that it
"allotted insufficient" time for the magnitude of its task . [Quoted mat
added .
  Obviously, the select committee had insufficient time to investigate fully th
matters' and make seasoned and timely recommendations to the House
legislative corrections of those evils which may exist and require seri
consideration .
  A special committee of this Congress, in accordance with House Resolution 2
would have sufficient time to undertake extensive research and investigat
for holding public hearings, and to report Its findings and recommendations
Congress . It should be noted that despite-its, serious limitations, the sel
committee' of the 82d Congress disclosed, . as indicated by my previous f
point summary, substantial evidence regarding support given to Communi
by foundations . If considerable evidence can be reveled by an incomple
investigation, which had so little time, it can be reasonably expected tha
new committee, . which has the time to explore the -various ramifications
support given to Communists by foundations, will produce startling evide
    II. EXCUSES CONCERNING . GRANTS TO COMMUNISTS TOO READILY ACCEPTED
  The select committee in the 82d Congress permitted the officers and trust
of foundations, exercising control over the disbursement of hundreds of milli
of dollars in tax-exempt funds, to give the excuse, without being challen
for their veracity or the reasonableness of their statements, that foundat
grants were made to Communist organizations and individuals unwittin
and through ignorance . A new special committee of= the '83d Congress sho
ask these officers and trustees who , testified to give evidence under oath` t
grants to Communists were, in fact, given unwittingly and if precautions
being taken so that the practice of making grants to subversives would
stopped.
giving sworn testimony regarding questionable activities of thei
The only witnesses I-can find who were actually sworn and plac
were 2 anti-Communists, 2 Department of Justice employees,
and Walter Gellhorn . Only § witnesses out of 40 were sworn
these circumstances, much of the testimony has no more validit
gossip, and no proper - :investigation .bas taken, place . House Re
to create a speciahcommittee of the 83d Congress, explicitly charges
committee to administer the oath so that the serious omission
committee in this. respect would be remedied .
                 IV. ONLY A FEW FOUNDATIONS WERE INVESTIGATED
  The committee of the 82d Congress had only time to consider e
a few foundations, and much of the information it received in
questionnaires it did not have time to digest. It did not publish
but revealing answers to" its questionnaires, which, would have
source material for anyone interested in what the foundations ar
select committee of this Congress would have time to digest, utiliz
the answers that the foundations have given to the questionnai
House Resolution 217 specifically charges the Sergeant at Arms
to obtain the records of the former select committee and to make t
to the new committee .
a        V. PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES OF FOUNDATIONS WERE NOT INVEST
    *>
    The select committee of the 82d Congress did not ask the represen
 foundations to explain why they were indulging in propaganda, in
 grants to organizations, projects, and persons which are promoting
 ests or ideologies . These representatives were also not request
 activities of foundations which are, in fact, influencing legislatio
 their grants frequently have an outright political objective rather
 tional one.
   Foundations, in their statement of policy, say that because of th
tion from income tax they cannot undertake to support enterprise
propaganda or attempting to influence legislation . Such large fo
Rockefeller, Carnegie, Ford, Sloan, and Field explicitly make this
their published reports . Although foundations contend that they
ing education, documentary evidence in my possession raises the que
some large foundations are not actually engaged in propaganda .
   Large foundations have a tremendous influence on the intellectu
tional life of our country. These foundations, possessing huge su
wealth, seem to be dedicated to promoting specific views on such m
welfare state, the United Nations, American foreign policy, the
American economy, and so on, rather than presenting objective
examination of these issues . Extensive evidence that I have ex
that organizations which are primarily committed to a given i
received large grants from some big foundations over many years,
ous instances they have received such grants simultaneously fr
foundations .
   The assets of the large foundations are tax exempt and, theref
be spent on projects and organizations representing the views of all
and not only of a segment dedicated to a specific ideology . 'Since
of some of the large foundations appear to be biased in favor of
ideology, in reality they are indulging in propaganda calculated
legislation on both domestic and international matters . Under
stances, these foundations are violating their charters given to
tempts to influence legislation was completely ignored by the .grevious .
mittee. However, House Resolution 2,1T explicitly authorizes the new„ commi
to determine which foundations are using their 'resources for political,
poses, propaganda, and attempts to influence legislation .              _

  VI . FOUNDATIONS WERE NOT ASKED WHY THEY DON'T SUPPORT PRO-AMERICA
                                PROJECTS
   A very important question, which is vital to the future of 'the Amer
Republic, was never raised at all during , . the inquiry of the 82d Congr
This question is : Why do the pro-American' projects find` it so difficult to
grants from some of the foundations? Some large foundations' must an
questions' such as the following
   A. Have they' financed studies regarding the excellence of the Amer
Constitution, the Importance of the Declaration' of Independence, and the
fundity of the philosophy of the Founding' Fathers? And, if not, what is
excuse, for neglecting the study of the basis of the American Republie .7
   B . Have they given support to the educational programs of, the, Atn
Legion ; . the ' Veterans of Foreign Wars, and Catholic and Jewish veter
nrganizatti6us'? And, if not, what is their explanation' of the 'fact that
have been supporting agencies which are left of center and are internationali
and not similarly favoring nationalist organizations?
   C. Have they supported studies which are ; critical of the welfare state
socialism; and demonstrate the merits of , the competitive private-property
tern i . And, if not, what justification do+ they have for such negligence,'
they have given numerous grants to persons and organizations which favo
welfare state and socialism?       .
   D. Have they given grants to active anti-Communists and repentant'
munists wh®' :have served the United States bravely and at 'greatt self=sacri
 by exposing - the-Communist conspiracy within our borders? And,' if not, ,
 are' their' 'reasons fof? . not giving grants to such , persons, while they
 admittedly supported Communists and`pro-Communists?
   These 'large foundations must be given every opportunity to answer f
 such questions to the committee of the 83d Congress and to submit evid
 to the extent -they are able, to prove , that they have given support to
 American projects and organizations . Should' they ; not be able to do
                                                                              ,
 or should their contribution to such, projects : and organizations, be , very sc
 they 'must furnish a detailed,, justification, for policies which :overloo
 preservation of the American 7Republic .
                      VII . EXTENSIVE EVIDENCE WAS NOT USED
  The select committee of the 82d Congress did not use a great deal of the
inentary evidence that was actually in its possession . Much of this exte
evidence showed subversive and un-American propaganda- activities on the
of foundations, as well as outright political activities which_ attempted
fluence legislation . It is. obviously impossible for me to even summariz
voluminous evidence, but I feel that my colleagues should have at least
examples of foundation-financed projects which are not only unscholarly
of such nature as to aid and abet the Communist and Socialist move
Since time does not permit the full documentation of these examples on the
of this Chamber, the documentation will be presented as an appendix in a
sion and extension of my remarks in the Record .
       49720-54--*pt . 1-3
Foundation on the floor of this Chamber, therefore, the evidence wi
in the extension of my. remarks in the Record .
   I have submitted for the consideration of this Chamber an eight-po
 of the omissions and faults of the work of the select committee of the
and justification of the vital need to remedy these faults and omis
special committee of this Congress, to be created by House Resolutio
   The matters' to which I drew your attention are not only vital for
of our Nation, but have also very practical consequences for the poc
every American taxpayer . Foundations actually operate by Fede
through enjoying tax exemptions by authority of section 101 of t
Revenue Code . Considerable revenue is lost to the Government by
emption given to foundations. This revenue must be made up by
payments on the part of the average American taxpayer . Thus,
large foundations may be abusing their status at the expense of t
taxpayer. This abuse of tax exemption is particularly- relevant at
 when we end up the fiscal year over $9 billion in the red and the Secr
 Treasury : has to go out and borrow this amount in cash to keep the
operating.
   Should the investigation disclose that some foundations, because of t
ties, are not entitled to tax exemption, the Federal Government wou
obtain additional revenue in taxes, which, in turn, would lessen the
of average citizens. I mention this fact because in view of the nee
ernment economy, and because Congress is already spending money
gations, it is important to justify. the creation of a new investigati
in terms of what it may do to assist the Government to close looph
tax laws .
   The assets of tax-exempt foundations already run into billions.
foundations are bound to become more and more important due -to t
putting more and more businesses in such trusts . The present law
the inheritance and transfer of property are creating a great many
foundations whose assets are based on corporation securities . In v
trend, the foundations may soon become the dominant owners of tax-
can business . Under such circumstances, a very large segment o
business will be under the control of a few trustees who will be al
the large tax-exempt funds entrusted to them . Such a tremendous co
of control and power would be in itself an unhealthy development and b
completely out of control ; , furthermore, such concentrated power
could easily be abused . This is still another reason why a, careful i
of the tax-exempt foundation situation is imperative.
   The questionable activities of foundations are of such vital con
American people that in recent weeks two committees of the Uni
Senate-the Internal Security Subcommittee and the Committee on
Operations-have announced their intention to look into the activitie
tions . Thus, it appears that my recommendation made in signing' th
the select committee of the 82d Congress was well taken . However ;
Security Subcommittee is specifically concerned with the subversion
matters directly affecting the internal security of the United States
scope of the committee is limited, it would be impossible for it to
adequately the propaganda activities of foundations and their atte
fluence legislation . These activities are in a sense much more imp
foundation grants to Communists. Similarly, the jurisdiction o
Committee on Un-American Activities is limited to subversion .
   Moreover, these three committees, as well as the Ways and Means Co
any other standing committee, are too preoccupied with other matters
to undertake a thorough and complete investigation of the complex an
  the investigative processes of Congress
  Ford Foundation grant makes available $15 million for investigating con
  sional methods of inquiries into communism and subversion . On the o
  hand, the House Committee on Un-American Activities has an appropria
  of only $300,000 ; the Senate Committee on Government Operations, $200,000
  Senate Internal Security Subcommittee, $200,000 . It would seem that becau
  the large sum provided for this task, the Ford Foundation considers
  investigation of Congress highly important . This intention of the Ford Fo
  tion constitutes an insult not only to the Congress of the ~ United States bu
  American people as well, since this body is the representatives of the Ame
  people. It is up to the House to meet such a challenge by establishing a,
  special committee for a thorough and complete investigation of the For
  other foundations .
     Therefore, Mr . Speaker, I submit that House Resolution 217 deserves
  immediate and serious consideration of all those interested in the safet
  welfare of our Nation and the dignity and accomplishments of our Congr
       PRO-COMMUNIST AND PRO-SOCIALIST PROPAGANDA FINANCED, BY TAX-EXEMP
                                  FOUNDATIONS
     A few examples of foundation-financed unscholarly projects which ate
   fact, pro-Communist and pro-Socialist propaganda are the following , :
   A . The Encyclopedia of Social Sciences is slanted toward the left
      The Encyclopedia of Social Sciences, financed by tax-exempt funds, is
   sidered a sort of supreme court of the social sciences. It is the final aut
~to which appeal is made regarding any question in the field of social scie
   The encyclopedia has influenced the thinking of millions of students and
   persons who have consulted it since the appearance- of its °consecutive vo
   during 1930-35 . Alvin Johnson, who has been the moving spirit behin
   encyclopedia and was its associate editor and is now president emeritus o
   New School for Social Research, estimated that "there are at least half a m
   consultations of the encyclopedia every year, in spite of the fact that it i
   of date." The Rockefeller, Carnegie, and Russell Sage Foundations init
   subsidized the encyclopedia to the amount of $600,000 . The eventual co
   the encyclopedia was $1,100,000.
      Although the preface of the encyclopedia says that it endeavored to in
   all important topics in the social sciences, it does not contain an article
   American Revolution, while it has articles on the French Revolution an
   Russian Revolution .
      Johnson, in his book Pioneer's Progress, on pages 310-312, said that t
   his assistant editors were Socialists and that another editor was a Comm
   Johnson, in his great naivete, expected that these editors would not try to
   the encyclopedia in favor of communism and socialism . Yet articles d
   with subjects on the left were primarily assigned to leftists, while art
   dealing with subjects on the right were also assigned primarily to leftists .
      The article on bolshevism and Gosplan were written by Maurice Dob
    economist sympathetic to the Soviet point of view . The articles on burea
   and Lenin were written by the Socialist Harold Laski . The articles on F
   ism and guild socialism were written by the Socialist G . D. H . Cole. The a
    on communism was written by Max Beer, of the University of Frankfort
   was a devoted, wholehearted disciple and enthusiastic biographer of Marx
    article on socialism was written by Socialist Oscar Jaszi . Otto Hoetzs
    the University of Berlin, in his article on Government, Soviet Russia,
    among other things
affiliated with the Nazis . Laissez Faire was written by the Social
Cole, who refers to laissez faire as "unworkable' and as "theoreti
rupt ." He concludes
   "As a prejudice, laissez faire survives and still wields great
doctrine deserving of theoretical respect, it is dead ."
   The fair and scholarly procedure would have been to assign articles
of the left to leftists and the articles on subjects of the right to
limited government and classical economics . Since this was no
encyclopedia is to a large extent propaganda for communism and soci
indeed regrettable that this encyclopedia, financed by tax-exempt f
have sponsors which were listed in the preface of the first volume
cyclopedia as follows
     American Anthropological Association
     American Association of Social Workers
     American Economic Association
     American Historical Association
     American Political Science Association
     'American Psychological Association
     American Sociological Society
      American Statistical Association
     Association of American Law Schools
      National Education Association
   The student or anyone else consulting the encyclopedia is thus
cause, upon noting the sponsorship, he assumes that the encycloped
to be unbiased and is representative of the highest available schol
B . The University of Chicago Roundtable is propaganda, not educati
   The University of Chicago Roundtable has received during the la
over $600,000 as of 11950, from the Alfred P . Sloan Foundation . Th
audience of these Sunday noon roundtable radio broadcasts has been
by its staff to be between 5 to 8 million persons . The roundtable c
an educational program, but this is doubtful . To be a genuinely
program, everyone of the roundtable broadcasts dealing with co
subjects should have participants who are truly representative o
of the problem discussed . However, on the basis of my examinati
scripts of a great many of these roundtable discussions, it appe
most cases the background and ideology of the participants were
that no genuine discussion of controversial subjects could take pl
fair presentation of all sides of these issues could be expected . A
cases thet ideology of the participants was leftist .
   For example, the August 18, 1946, broadcast dealt with What Is
The participants were Milton Mayer, a Socialist journalist, an
Schlesinger, Jr. of Harvard University and of Americans for Democra
and Lynn A. Williams, vice president of the Stewart-Warner Corp
quently vice president of the University of Chicago . Part of the
said
   "Mr. SCHLESINGER. It certainly would appall the editors of Pra
that you, an American capitalist, are teaching the Communist manif
workers.
   "Mr. WrT-TsAnrs. I certainly did not sell it to them, because, try
to teach them all the merits of what Marx had to say, they would have
   "Mr. MASER. * * * socialism, as we see it operating under the la
ment in Great Britain, has collective or social ownership of the m
duction just as communism does . But socialism is still parliame
violent, gradualist, democratic, progressive ."
Wirth, all of the University of Chicago . All three participants criticize
Attorney General's list of Communist organizations and the McCarran Inte
Security Act. Since no one who recognized the patriotic purpose of this li
of the act participated in the program, it was definitely unbalanced and sla
to the left.
   The June 29, 1952, broadcast, a discussion of how to deal with Commu
subversion, had as participants Daniel Bell of Columbia University, Dw
MacDonald, a journalist, and Quincy Wright of the University of Chicago.
Donald attacked the Attorney General's list of subversive organizations,
ators McCarthy and McCarran, and the Smith Act . Bell also attacked the
Act . Wright attacked Senator McCarthy and the McCarran committee
one participated in the program who had anything to say in favor of Sena
McCarthy and McCarran, the Smith Act, or the Attorney General's list of
versive organizations .
   I also found that on such controversial issues as the human-rights progr
the United Nations, American foreign policy, and political and economic
tions, little chance was given to conservative and nationalist views . Had
ideological balance of the program's participants alternated from week to
we would not be forced to the suspicion that this was a propaganda sou
board.
 C. The citizenship education project i8 slanted toward the left
   Between 1949 and 1951, the Carnegie Corp . has granted to the Teacher's
lege of Columbia University for its citizenship-education project the s
$1,417,550. Examination of this project indicates that, like the Encyclop
of the Social Sciences and the University of Chicago roundtable broadcast
is slanted toward the left . One of the main . accomplishments of the citize
education project was a card file of 1,046 index cards which are sold to
schools for use of civics teachers . Each of the cards contains a summar
annotation of a book or pamphlet on political and social issues for the teac
guidance in presenting a social problem to a class.
   Examination of the 1950 card file shows that the great majority of
and other items selected for summary and annotation are leftist, liberal,
internationalist in their viewpoint and only a .few are conservative and nati
1st in their outlook . Actually there are only about 2 dozen cards which
to material that is conservative in outlook-this is a very small percentag
of over 1,000 cards. Thus, the teacher who uses this card file has ver
items to contrast against the liberal, leftwing, and internationalist items
file .
   In addition, leftist materials in the card file are most often annotat
 "factual," and the few rightist materials are most often annotated as "opi
ated ." For example, card No. 554 refers to We Are the Government, by E
and Gossett, and describes it as "factual, entertaining, descriptive, illustrat
while the book in reality is pro-Communist . Card No. 249 refers to a Mas
Privilege, by Carey McWilliams, and is described as "historical, descrip
McWilliams is a notorious Communist. Card No. 901 refers to Buildin
Peace at Home and Abroad, by Maxwell Stewart, and is described as "fac
dramatic." Stewart has been named as a Communist . Card No . 1020
 to The American, by Howard Fast, another notorious Communist who act
 went to jail for contempt of this House, and is described as - "hist
 biographical ."
   The following are examples of how conservative works are torn down b
 annotations : Card No . . 809 refers to the Road to Serfdom, by Frederi
 Hayek, and is described as "factual, strongly opinionated, logical ." Card N
refers to Be Glad You're a Real Liberal, by Earl Bunting, diector of the Nat
Association of Manufacturers, and is described as "opinionated, biased, de
   hundreds of thousands of dollars from the Alfred P . Sloan Foundat
   pamphlets are prominently displayed and sold in many public librar
   frequently used in high schools . Many hundreds of thousands of copi
  pamphlets are distributed annually . For numerous years Maxwell
  has been the editor of the public affairs pamphlets, which are publi
   public affairs committee . He has been an associate editor of the M
  and has taught in Moscow. Dr. Louis F . Budenz has identified S
  member of the Communist Party in sworn testimony given before t
  committee .
     The House Military Subcommittee charged in 1949 that the publica
   Public Affairs Committee, Inc ., "are recommended by the Affiliated
   Workers"-Communist--"and sold by Communist bookstores ." Geo
   in his pro-Communist publication called In Fact, offered a free pu
   pamphlet as a bonus for renewal subscription for In Fact . Seldes sa
     "These pamphlets prepared by the Public Affairs Committee are,
  larly written, authoritative . You will find them an excellent source
  able information ."
     One of the public affairs pamphlets, entitled "The Races of Manki
  Benedict and Gene Weltfsh . published in 1943, was banned by the
   Army . Ruth Benedict had Communist-front organization affiliatio
   cently Weltfish refused to answer the question whether she has bee
   nist, before a Senate committee . Maxwell Stewart has written num
   phlets, such as Industrial Price Policy, which is slanted toward th
   American Way, which casts grave doubt on the value of the free-ent
   tem ; Income and Economic Progress, which follows a similar line o
  and the Negro in America, in which he lauds such undoubted Com
  Paul Robeson, Langston Hughes, and W . E. B . DuBois, and does n
  anti-Communist Negroes as outstanding Negroes . Charles Edward A
  low's pamphlet, Health Care for Americans, was recommended as su
  reading in the Jefferson School of Social Science . Carey McWilliam
  been . named a Communist, also write such pamphlets as Small Fa
  Farm, What About Our Japanese-Americans . Louis Adamic, an adm
   nunist, wrote a pamphlet called America and the Refugees .
  E. The NBA and PEA propagandize for socialism
     The National Education Association and the Progressive Educati
  tion have received major contributions from the General Education
  of the foundations dispersing Rockefeller tax-exempt money . Th
  Education Association and Progressive Education Association are ver
  because through them the foundations are reaching right into
  schools and are affecting millions of schoolchildren.,,,' By 1947, some
  was spent by the General Education Board on new educational goal
  cedures, and among others the National Education Association and P
  Education Association were generously supported in educational reor
  and experimentation . During the 1930's these 2 educational organi
  ceived particularly large sums of money, and by 1940 the Nationa
  Association received a total of $456,100 and the Progressive Educati
  tion a total of $1,635,941 . Just what kind of educational reorgan
  experimentation was supported by the tax-exempt funds of the Gen
~_.tion Board?
     The Progressive Education Association-PEA-in its official maga
  Progressive Education, on page 257 of the November 1947 issue, had a
  cle by John J . DeBoer, president, American Education Fellowship-t
  Education Fellowship is the present name of the PEA . DeBoer has
  Communist-front affiliations . In his lead article, DeBoer said that th
   "I . To channel the energies of education toward the reconstruction of
economic system, a system which should be geared with the increasing sociali
tions and public controls now developing in England, Sweden, New Zeala
and other countries ; a system in which national and international planning
production and distribution replaces the chaotic planlessness of traditional
enterprise ; *' * * a system in which the interests, wants, and needs of
' .onsumer dominate those of the producer ; a system in which natural resour
such as coal and iron ore, are owned and controlled by the people ; a syste
which public corporations replace monopolistic enterprises and privately ow
'public' utilities.
   "II . To channel the energies of education toward the establishment of gen
international authority in all crucial issues affecting peace and security ; *
an order in which international economic planning of trade, resources, labor
tribution and standards, is practiced, parallel with the best standards of ind
         n
            ,
ual ,n Ras * * * an order in which world citizenship thus assumes at l
equal status with national citizenship."
   Is this an educational program or is it propoganda in favor of socia
and world government?
   The ideol        or the_ T io al Education Association was stated in 193
 Willar       Givens, who athimem       was'superinteilnent of schools at Oakl
 Calif., and subsequently become executive secretary of the NEA, a post wh
 he' held for 18 years . Under the title "Education for the New America,
 the Proceedings of the 72d Annual Meeting of the NEA, Givens said in 193
   "This report comes directly from the thinking together of more thna 1,
 members of the department of superintendents (school superintendents) . *
   "A dying laissez-faire must be completely destroyed and all of us, inclu
 the owners, must be subjected to a large amount of social control . A large
 tion of our discussion group, accepting the conclusions of distinguished stude
maintain that in our fragile, interdependent society, the credit agencies,
 basic industries, and utilities cannot be centrally planned and operated u
private ownership.
   "Hence they will join in creating a swift nationwide campaign of adult ed
 tion which will support President Roosevelt in taking these over and opera
 them at full capacity as a unified national system in the interests of all of
 people."
   Is this an educational program or is it propaganda in favor of socialism?
 why should the General Education Board, whose funds came from Rockefell
 who- made' his money under the free-enterprise system, support such propaga
   In 1940 the General Education Board gave $17,500 to the National Asso
tion of Secondary School Principals and the National Council for the So
Studies, both divisions of the National Education Association, to prepare sev
teaching units which would provide teachers with resource material on so
problems. One of these units was prepared by Oscar Lange and Abba P . Le
and was called the American Way of Business . Both Lange and Lerner
been socialists for a long time, and Lange eventually renounced his Amer
citizenship in order to become the Kremlin's Ambassador for Communist Po
to the United Nations . The American Way of Business, which was publis
by the National Education Association, is not an analysis of American busin
but a propaganda tract for communism, Why should tax-exempt funds
used to enable two Socialists to write a propaganda piece on American busi
enterprise?
   I also want to raise the significant question whether it is a coincidence
during the time when the National Education Association and the Progres
Education Association received particularly large grants and the American
of Business was financed, the director for General Education, the division of
SUBVERSIVE AND PRO-COMMUNIST AND PRO-SOCIALIST PROPAGANDA ACTIV
                             FORD FOUNDATION
   To illustrate the dubious staff and the many subversive and
 activities of the Ford Foundation, I offer the following examp
 extensive documentary evidence which I have in my possession
1 . Dubious staff of Ford Foundation
   A. The record of 11ffessrs . Berelson and Moseley : Bernard Ber
director of the Ford Foundation's Behavioral Sciences Division, wh
 been allotted $3,500,000 for the creation of a center for advanced
havioral sciences, which will consider social relations in human' beha
son, while on the faculty of the University of Chicago, Served on a
welcome the Red dean of Canterbury, the Very Reverend Hewle
world renowned apologist for communism who sports a Soviet decora
work in behalf of his Kremlin masters . The welcoming committee
dean of Canterbury was organized under the auspices of the Nati
of American-Soviet Friendship, an agency which has been cited as su
Communist by the Attorney . General of the United States .
   The East European fund was established by the Ford Foundation,
by it and deals with issues relating to the Soviet Union and its Eu
lites, and particularly with the settlement and adjustment of Sov
who have come to the United States . The president of-this fund
Moseley, who is also director of the Russian Institute at Columbia
Some years ago Professor Moseley made the following evaluation of
Union in a pamphlet he wrote for the Foreign Policy Associatio
ported by foundations :
   "Over the long run, great numbers of people will judge both the
American systems, not by how much individual freedom they preserve
much they contribute, in freedom or without it, to develop a better l
a greater feeling of social fulfillment ."
   Garet Garett, editor of American Affairs, said that this is straig
 Party ideology
   "It means only that pure Communist ideology may be thus impar
lumbia University's Russian Institute through the Foreign Policy A
   Philip 0. Jessup and Ernest J . Simmons are members of the adm
board of the Russian Institute at Columbia University, which i
Moseley. Professor Simmons is the editor of a book entitled "U . S .
grew out of studies at Cornell University that were financed by the
Foundation . At least 15 of the 20 contributors of this symposi
Simmons are pro-Soviet and none of the other 5 has ever been known
of the Soviet Union . Moreover, Professor Simmons has affiliatio
munist fronts.
   B . The record of Mr. Gladieux : Another officer of the Ford F
Bernard Louis Gladieux, former secretary to and protege of Hen
Gladieux entered Federal service in 1938 in Chicago with the F
Agency, transferred to the Labor Department, Wage and Hour Adm
from there to the Bureau of the Budget, then to War Production Boa
the WPB on November 23, 1944, to go with UNRRA . On March 2,
Wallace was sworn in as Secretary of Commerce, and on April 30, 19
Bernard L. Gladieux as his executive assistant . Gladieux rema
Department of Commerce until October 1, 1951, when he was appo
officer of the Ford Foundation in charge of the New York office and
to the president of the Ford Foundation .
   I have been advised by a reliable and responsible source that
Gladieux, while in Government service in Washington, had in addition
loyalty had even been requested or made while he was in Federal service .
a review of hearings held pursuant to Senate Resolution 230, 81st Congress
session, by a subcommittee of the Senate Committee on Interstate and For
Commerce, certainly indicated that Gladieux' loyalty should have been in
gated. A Member of the Senate took the witness stand before the committee
after first being duly sworn as a witness, testified as follows
  "I understand that one Bernard L. Gladieux, of the Secretary's office, who
protege of Henry Wallace, has exercised the power of nullifying decisions of
so-called loyalty board . In other words, if it found he was cleared of a
disloyalty but recommended' as a poor security risk, not a good security risk,
someone overruled that finding ."
  Now, I am informed that it could be, probably is, Mr . Gladieux.
  Mr. Gladieux never appeared before the Senate committee to answer
changes against him which were made on March 28, 30, and April 4, 1950.
ev r, Mr. Gladieux was a witness on February 27, 1950, before a House A
priations- Subcommittee, of which the gentleman from New York, Mr . Ro
was chairman, and the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr . Flood, the gent
from Georgia, Mr. Preston, the late Hon . Karl Stefan, of Nebraska, and
gentleman from Ohio, Mr . Cliff Clevenger, were memliers .
  At page 2341 the gentleman from New York (Mr . Rooney) stated
  "The story this year is that the Department of Commerce has taken the p
of the State Department ; that the Department of Commerce is the outfi
Government which is honeycombed with people belonging to the Commu
Party ."
  Mr. Flood, on page 2346, made the following statement
  "You are executive assistant to the Secretary of Commerce, and after 2 h
of examination and cross-examination here I have not the faintest idea of
personal attitude toward this kind of case, which is a borderline case, or fr
on a case where anything else is concerned . I am very unhappy about your
point of view . Do you appreciate that?"
  On page 2362, Mr . Gladieux, as the hearings were about to close, made a le
statement,, to which the gentleman from New York (Mr . Rooney), on page
replied as follows
  "That is all so much nice language . To me it does not mean a thing .
have come up here this afternoon to acquaint us with the situation in the De
ment of Commerce. The results have been nil. We have not had the cooper
from you that we have had from the Department of State .
  "You refused to take us into your confidence with regard to these things,
I have tried to handle it in an amicable way so that if questions were r
on the floor we might have the answers to them . You have reacted in the
direction, away from us . So now we are far apart, and we will have to
that way . There is nothing that I can see that we can do about it ."
  Senator Karl Mundt, speaking before the Senate, made the remark that-
  "In 1950 the junior Senator from Nevada (Mr . Malone) rose on this
to suggest that certain persons in the Department of Commerce were dange
security risks."
  Senator Mundt went on to say that a committee was created to investi
the .charges made by Senator Malone, but that "after 3 or 4 days' hearing, S
tary of Commerce Sawyer rushed up to the Hill and agreed to fire the two
whom I had drawn into the net-Lee and Remington-if the hearing cou
stopped ." Continuing, Senator Mundt stated
  "I did not hear that agreement, but I know it was made, because I could n
get the committee together again .
  "I was really after Mr . Gladieux, secretary to the Secretary of Commerce
dent, Hutchins' prominent position was made possible by the fact t
considers Hutchins as the greatest living educator and literally w
With the resignation of Hoffman as president of the foundation
Gaither, a San Francisco attorney, became president of the found
Gaither is a mere figurehead and Hutchins is still running the
Gaither has accepted the presidency only for a year, and thus Hutc
become the , formal head of the organization . But even without su
presidency, in view of the facts stated above, Hutchins in effect r
Foundation .
   In his capacity as the policymaker of the Ford Foundation, Hutchi
a completely unprecedented financial power over education, the hum
the social sciences . By giving or withholding grants, Hutchins is
to insinuate his views into any aspect of American intellectual life .
it is essential to inquire about Hutchins' views and his record co
Communist menace.
   Testifying in 1949 under oath before the Illinois Seditious Activiti
tion Commission inquiry into subversive activities at the University
Hutchins admitted that he was a sponsor of the October 1948 meet
bureau on academic freedom of the National Council of Arts, Sei
Professions .
   Regarding the Methodist Federation of Social Action, Hutchins h
   "Believe you are advancing the cause of true Americanism ."
   The first page of the publication of the Methodist Federation for So
where this quotation appears, asserts that the federation rejects the p
and favors a classless society . Does Hutchins think that such an id
stitutes true Americanism?
   The University of Chicago, under Hutchins' administration, has d
itself as the only institution of higher learning in America which
vestigated five times for immoral or subversive activities . These in
are : First, Illinois State Senate inquiry, 1935 ; second, Universit
alumni committee, 1947-48 ; third, University of Chicago board o
1948 ; fourth, Illinois Seditious Activities Investigation Commiss
June 1949 ; fifth, investigation and subsequent report to the Illinois
by State Representative G. William Horsley, Springfield, 1949 . The f
gation was a whitewash ; the second requested the resignation of H
 third held its deliberations in secret ; and the fourth and fifth di
the university. Both the majority report of the Illinois Seditiou
 Commission and the independent report of Representative Horsley co
university's administration severely and asked the legislature
exemption.
   At the hearings of the seditious activities commission of the Illinois
at the 1949 investigation of the University of Chicago, Hutchins,
sworn in, testified as follows
   "The subpena which I have received summons me to testify conce
 versive activities at the University of Chicago . This is a leading q
the answer is assumed in the question . I cannot testify concernin
activities at the University of Chicago because there are none ."
   At the same hearings, Hutchins was asked the following question
following response :
    "Question . The records which I shall present through other witnes
 summary, that some sixty-odd persons listed in the latest available
 the University of Chicago as professors or professors emeritus have
 ated with 135 Communist-front organizations in 465 separate affil
that not something for which the university might well be alarmed?
   "Answer . I don't see why."
    "Answer. I don't think so ."
   Hutchins was also asked : "Are you aware that the Communist-front org
 tion is a part of the Communist movement, just as much as'the party itself
   "No ."
   Then he was asked : "You haven't attempted to make 9 study of the C
nist Party?
   "No, I haven't," Hutchins replied.
   He was also asked : "Is there any doubt that the Communist Party is
spiratorial fifth column operated in the interest of a foreign state?
   "I am not instructed on this subject," Hutchins answered .
   Such was the attitude of Hutchins toward communism after the start o
Berlin airlift, and at a time when the United States was spending billio
dollars abroad to fight communism .
   On June 25, 1951, the Daily Worker, on page 2 under the headline
Foundation Head Joins Blast at High Cost O . K . for Smith Act," the fol
item appeared under a Chicago dateline of June 24 :
   "Prof . Robert M. Hutchins, former chancellor of the University of Ch
and now associate director of the Ford Foundation, joined with Osm
Fraenkel, noted New York attorney, opposing the Supreme Court decisi
holding the conviction of the 11 convicted Communist Party leaders
Hutchins said that the majority decision indicates that we are at las
against a great crisis in this country . He spoke of the ruling as a co
reversal of earlier precedents set by the high Court * * * . , Speaking here
American Civil Liberties Union meeting in his honor, Dr . Hutchins de
that 'it may now become more difficult for us to take some of the posi
we have in the past .' He referred to his stated willingness to hire Comm
as university professors. Hutchins told the Illinois Legislature that he
even take back into the university faculty Oscar P . Lange, who, as I p
out before, renounced his American citizenship to become Moscow's Ambas
for Communist Poland to the United Nations . 'We may even have to d
whether we must violate the law in order to remain in conformity wit
convictions,' he said ."
   Hutchins wrote the introduction to a book entitled "Character Assassinat
published in 1950, which was written by Jerome Davis, who has been i
than 40 Communist-front organizations . Hutchins also wrote the for
to a book entitled "Political and Civil Rights in the United States," publ
in 1953 by Thomas I . Emerson and David Haber . Louis Budenz, test
under oath, named Emerson as a member of the Communist Party, a c
which Emerson denied . But Emerson has been in a large number of Com
fronts and was head of the Communist-controlled National Lawyers Guil
legal arm of the Communist Party in the United States. There is no
that the National Lawyers Guild is a subversive organization, and it has
cited officially as much .
   Hutchins, whose attitudes I have illustrated, is the key man in the
Foundation, which owns outright some 374,000 shares of stock of the 4
shares of stock in the Ford Motor Co., one of the biggest industrial giants
whole world. The stockholdings, according to Henry Ford II, amount
percent of the outstanding stock of the Ford Motor Co . Recently the Ne
Times magazine pointed out that the Ford Foundation is the "virtual own
the gigantic Ford Motor Co ." According to Paul Hoffman, then president
Ford Foundation, the Ford Foundation had made grants of $72 milli
2 years, 1951-52 .
   So it may readily be seen that a grant of $15 million, to protect the
liberties of Communists and to investigate the Congress of the United St
from the tax-exempt millions of the income from the stock of the late
  the tax-exempt Ford Foundation .
     In view of the attitude of Hutchins toward communism, it is
  surprising that the Ford Foundation has made some highly dubio
  I offer the following examples for your consideration
  2. Ford Foundation's support of communism and Socialist propaga
     A. Grant to aid Communists and to discredit their investigation : I h
  referred to the $15 million grant to investigate the Congress of the U
 and its committees . In a recent broadcast Eric Sevareid, a CBS c
 who has long opposed congressional investigations of communism,
 defended John Stewart Service, 1 of the 6 persons arrested by the
 Amerasia case, enthusiastically praised this $15 million fund and ca
 ins "the driving spirit behind this new crusade ." There can be no qu
 Hutchins is behind this new Ford Foundation project, for he has co
 expressed his concern for the civil liberties of Communists . Sinc
 Hutchins' attitude toward communism and we know that his conceptio
 liberties is similar to that of the Communists, we can be sure that t
 Foundation project will aid the Communist conspiracy and will try t
 all those who fight it . This will undoubtedly happen, for the chair
 president of the new Ford Foundation project are mere figureheads
 and Hutchins is dominating the project.
    The gentleman from California, Mr . Jackson, said on this floor tha
 to state, the investigations proposed by the Ford Foundation will be g
 enthusiastic approval from Shanghai to East Berlin . The approval w
 given voice by the silent millions of captive peoples, but by the com
 their agents ."
    He aptly characterized this 15 million project by saying that it "
only to lend additional aid and comfort to the Communist Party ." T
can Legion's newsletter, the Firing Line, stated that this project is
many anti-Communists as "a huge slush fund for a full-scale war on al
tions and individuals who have ever exposed and fought Communists
    In passing, it should be pointed out that the Ford Foundation's effo
credit legislative inquiries into Communists activities is not unique
the Rockefeller Foundation has undertaken, on a smaller scale, a pr
the same intention . In 1947 the Rockefeller Foundation made a
$110,000 to Cornell University to conduct a study on civil liberties a
trol of subversive activities . This project resulted in the publication
of books attacking legislative investigations of Communists activiti
full of typical pro-Communist distortion. One of the authors of the
was Prof . Walter Gellhorn, of Columbia University, who has Commu
affiliations and who has explicitly demanded the abolition of the
mittee on Un-American Activities . Recently Gellhorn was identified
mony given under oath, as a member of the Communist Party, a charge
denied .
   It should also be pointed out that at least one foundation has used
not only to discredit the investigation of Communists, but to suppor
Communists fronts and to aid Communists on trial .
   On September 24, 1942, the gentleman from Texas [Mr . Dies], in
the House, showed that the Robert Marshall Foundation of New Yor
porting Communist fronts and Communist causes, and he listed t
disbursements made from the estate of the late Robert Marshall,
Dealer from the Department of Agriculture, who left an estate of ov
lion and a half dollars to the foundation and named trustees, mos
were radicals and Reds . This is the same foundation which the
from Illinois [Mr. Velde], in a speech in the House on October 17, 195
  B . Arthur Schlesinger, Jr ., of Americans for Democratic Action employ
Ford Foundation to, page 34 of the 1951 Mxi»uaJ .,Report, of. the
      ;-According
for Adult Education, a subsidiary of the Ford Foundation, the TV-Radio W
shop, administered by the fund for adult education, hired Arthur Schlesin
Jr., as commentator for a series of 12 weekly broadcasts . Schlesinger, of co
is a big shot in the ADA . The following public statements by Schlesinge
worthy of note
   In 1946 Schlesinger wrote that the present system in the United States
"even freedom-loving Americans look wistfully at Russia ."
  On December 11, 1949, on page 3 of the New York Times, Schlesinger said
  "I happen to believe that the Communist Party should be granted freedo
political action and that Communists should be allowed to teach in universi
so long as they do not disqualify themselves by intellectual distortions in
classrooms ."
  On August 18, 1946, on a University of Chicago Round Table broadcas
titled "What Is Communism?" Schlesinger said
   "Surely the class struggle is going on in America . I would agree compl
with the Communists on that ."
   Schlesinger was then asked
  "Do you mean that capitalism is dead everywhere except in the United Stat
  He replied : "It is dead ."
  In answer to the question, "What did it die of?", he said
  "It died of itself . There is much to what the Marxists used to say a
capitalism containing the `seeds of its own destruction',"
  Schlesinger, in a public-affairs pamphlet of 1950, entitled "What About
munism" criticized the Committee on Un-American Activities and said tha
was more interested in slandering and smearing liberals than in exposing
Communists . $e said. :
  "The methods of the witchhunt, especially when employed from the am
of congressional immunity, are sometimes almost as dangerous to demo
as the methods of the Communists themselves ."
  He also said
  "With the formation of Americans for Democratic Action, liberals who beli
in a non-Communist left acquired an organization of their own ."
  As the gentleman from California [Mr . Jackson] pointed out concernin
grant of $15 million to investigate the House and Senate, the money m
have been better spent by the Ford Foundation, to . help ferret out and e
the subversion in our schools and our universities, or the Ford Foundation m
have ddne'something about the Ford plants in the Detroit area .which the ge
man from California described as a seething mass of Communist conspiracy
intrigue, where thousands of unsuspecting and loyal American workers
being duped and held in a tight grip by the Communist leadership of Local
of the United Automobile Workers of America . Local 600 Is the largest
union in the world and has, or did have, some 60,000 members, and still i
classified as just one local union of the United Automobile Workers of Ame
  In February, March, and April, 1952, the House Committee on Un-Amer
Activities held open public hearings in Detroit, and witness after witness
the stand and testified under oath as to the Communist domination and con
of local 600 by the Kremlin . So the committee issued subpenas for the offi
of local 600 at the Ford plants and brought them before the committee
asked them' if they were Communists . Not a single officer of local 600 ans
the question. They took refuge in the fifth amendment, refusing to answe
the grouh s to do so would incriminate them . Yet they still work for Ford.
  Now you would think that when a congressional committee, a eomn tt
this House, goes to Detroit to hold hearings regarding Communists in the
plants that the Ford Motor Co. would assist. Exactly the opposite was true .
Foundation, too .
  B . Grant to a Communist : Another example of the kind of gran
Foundation makes was revealed in the testimony of William M.
former member of the faculty of the City College and of Xavier Univ
said under oath at the hearings of the Internal Security Subcomm
Moses Finkelstein, a City College teacher and later a professor at R
versity, under the name of Finley, was a member of the Communist
that recently this man received a grant from the Ford Foundation
  C . Grant to an organization supposedly controlled by a Communi
been 'advised by a reliable source that an organization which h
substantial grants not only from the Ford Foundation, but also fro
negie Corp ., is supposed to be dominated by a Communist who di
policy of the organization . It would be unfair for me to provide spe
mation on this matter until witnesses are put on the stand to give
mony under oath.
  D . Grant to a person who wants to abolish the United States : A
ous grant of a different character was m ade .to Mortimer Adler, w
$600,000 from the Ford and Mellon Foundations to set up the Institu
sophical Research . Professor Adler is such an ardent advocate of wo
ment that, according to the Cleveland Plain Dealer, October 29, 194
  "We must do everything we can to abolish the United States ."
  It would be interesting to find out just what kind of philosophical
Professor Adler will arrive at with reference to the virtues of pa
government based on unalienable rights of men .
  E . Grant to promote socialism : According to the Ford Foundat
Report for 1951, the foundation has . granted $50,000 to the Advertis
Inc., for "a restatement of the principles of American society ." Th
public policy committee includes, in addition to Paul Hoffman, form
of the Ford Foundation, and Chester C . Davis, its associate direc
persons who have Communist-front affiliations .
  The Miracle of America, a publication of the Advertising Council,
that the public-policy committee of the Advertising Council approv
dorses the economic-education program of the council . This prog
scribed in the Miracle of America under the title "Platform for All
This platform starts out like a firecracker Fourth of July patrioti
then turns out to be a rewrite of the British Labor-Socialist-Par
Adoption of this platform would guarantee the success of any Socialist
in America. The Miracle of America, containing this platform, ha
culated by hundreds of thousands by the Advertising, Council as a
oampaign of public information . Is this an educational program or
ganda in favor of socialism?
  F . Grant to pro-Communist India : The Ford Foundation has s
India for some of its largest grants and is spending millions of dol
nation . Is there some special significance to singling out India for
Foundation grants, in view of the fact that the head of the Indian
is more sympathetic to the Soviet Union than toward the United
that he wants the United States to recognize Red China and admi
munist nation, which is slaughtering Americans in Korea, to the Uni
I am greatly concerned with what is being done with the Ford Found
lions in India . That nation is a potential ally of the Soviet Union,
Ford Foundation projects in any way are fostering a pro-Soviet
India, the consequences may be disastrous for the future of America
  The stakes are very high, for if India should definitely become a S
the power of the Kremlin's bloc would be immeasurably increased
of what the Ford -Foundation might be doing in India is increased
that in the case of China the activities of the Rockefeller Foundat
tions of higher learning . If the Rockefeller fund spenders had had even
elementary conception of what' was going on among the Chinese teachers
students, they would have taken steps to halt the stampede of the Chinese
leges to communism . When the crisis of the Chinese revolution came, it
the student and teacher element, educated largely with Rockefeller money,
were the backbone of the Red success. Our boys are now suffering and d
in Korea, in part, because Rockefeller money encouraged trends in the Chin
colleges and schools which swung China's intelligentsia to communism ."
  What has happened once can happen again, and I am sure that my colleag
in this Chamber share my anxiety as to the future of India and what the
Foundation is doing there-whether its activities are of such nature as to ham
India's orientation toward the Kremlin or to assist and augment it?
addition to the Rockefeller Foundation's activities in China, the Institut
Pacific Relations, supported mainly by foundations, played a major part in
success of the Chinese Red revolution. The McCarran committee's extens
investigation of the Institute of Pacific Relations showed how this organizat
financed primarily by the Rockefeller Foundation and the Carnegie Corp ., p
the Kremlin's game with reference to China, and how it made possible
transformation of Nationalist China, our ally, into Red China, our enemy,
whom we are engaged in a bloody war . This investigation was a post mort
it took place after China had been sold out to the Kremlin . But how much m
useful it would be for a congressional committee to try to prevent by expos
any sort of activity, financed by the Ford Foundation, which may have a sim
effect in India as the Rockefeller and Carnegie Foundations' activities ha
China.
  The few examples I have given in regard to some of the officers of the F
Foundation and its subsidiaries, and in regard to some of their activities,
tainly warrant a thorough inquiry into their officers and all of their extens
activities, which reach not only into every area of American intellectual
but also into the far corners of thg earth.
   Mr. HAYS. I want to finish on this-and I do not see anyth
similar to the paragraph that Mr . Reece has shown me . If you
going to leave the statement, that foundations have not been as
why they did not support projects of a pro-American type, it le
me to believe that the staff is of the opinion that they did not or h
not. If you are of that opinion
   Mr. DODD. It was not meant to convey that, Mr. Hays .
   Mr. HAYS. I would still like to have a definition of pro-Ameri
   Mr. Donn . May I answer?
   Mr WORMSER May I interrupt Mr Dodd 2
   Mr. HAYS. If you mean by pro-American, if they have not c
tributed research that led them to the thinking of McKinley, Ulys
S . Grant, and Cohn and Schine, I am not for that in any case .
if pro-American means what I think it means, that is a very ser
indictment . If pro-American means the pre-1900-isolationist po
of one of the political parties, I want to disagree with that defini
of pro-American, because that does not mean pro-American to
   Mr. WORMSER. Mr. Hays, may I make a suggestion? We can
think, give you a reference to the Cox hearings in which that quest
 definition of this term .
    The CHAIRMAN. If the gentleman will yield, I never
 Mr. Dodd to say that the foundations had not contribute
 of so-called pro-American activities, but he said the char
 made or the criticism had been made that their donations,
 assistance had been weighted against the so-called pro-Amer
 ities . But Mr . Dodd can best answer that himself .
    Mr. HAYS . Let me read again what Mr . Dodd said yes
 is on page 39 of the report . He says, "From our point of
 seem to be eight criticisms which had been made of the w
 C ox committee." I will not read all of them, but he go
this one, which looks like the sixth, that foundations- ha
asked why they did not support projects 'of a pro-Amer
If that does not imply that they did not support it, I d
what does. I want that clarified right now.
    Mr. DODD . May I answer it, Mr. Hays?
    Mr. HAYS . Surely, I would like you to .
    Mr. DODD. That was nothing more than listing what ha
forth as the type of criticisms, and we found they had be
against the work of the Cox committee . The effort of th
to include that portion of research which would enable e
to have those criticisms answered . That is all that stat
there for.
   Mr. HAYS. Then has the staff found any evidence that t
tions have granted aid to pro-American projects?
   Mr. DODD. Yes, Sir . If you will refer to the statement w
in the foreword, in which I believe
   Mr . HAYS That is clear enough for me. I just wanted to
point that there had been, and we are not starting out w
dictment that they had never done anything pro-American
   Mr. DoDD. Oh, no.
   The CHAIRMAN . If the gentleman will permit an inter
undertook to make that clear in my opening statement ,yes
   Mr. HAYS . I appreciate that. I did not want that state
unchallenged . I still say I think we ought to have from th
view of the staff a definition of what you mean by "pro-
I do not insist on it at this minute, but I think along with y
tions, I think we ought to get it in the record .
   The CHAIRMAN . You can do that, can you not?
   Mr. HAYS . Later .
   Mr. DODD . Not only that, sir, but it would seem to me to
posite of the working definition which the staff used as t
un-American, which was the definition that we obta
Brookings .
  And in- the vast majority of instances, they-
  That is the benefit created by foundations--
must be regarded as beyond question either from the standpoint of their
formity to the intentions of their donors or from the standpoint of . the
American quality of their consequences .
  Mr. HAYS. That is fine. I am glad to have that read again, bec
yesterday the public address system was not working too well, an
did not have a copy of what you were saying. It is very probable
we missed several important things that you said .
   Mr. DODD. May I ask if you can hear me all right now?
   Mr._ RAYS. I cann hear you ; yes:
   That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.
   The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed, then.
   Mr. WORMBER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to give the commi
the benefit of a few excerpts which illustrate some of the things
Dodd said yesterday, and is to say today . I think it would-be b
if I introduced those or offered them after he has finished his
plete recitation.
   The CHAIRMAN . Without objection, and any of the insertion
think,_ should come at the end of Mr. Dodd's statement, rather
during.
     r. D
   MODD. May I~~proceed, Mr. Chairman?
   The CHAIRMAN . Yes.
   Mr. DODD. I am going on from where we left off yesterday whe
mentioned that there were several entities other than strictly ed
tional institutions which we felt we would have to include in
studies. I mentioned them by name . To characterize some of t
briefly
   The American Council of Learned Societies was founded in
to encourage humanistic studies, including some which today
regarded as social sciences. It is comprised of 24 constituent
ber associations . In its entirety, it appears to dominate scholar
in this country .
   The National Research Council was established in 1916 ongfi~na
as a preparedness measure in connection with World War l
charter was renewed in 1919, since which time, on behalf of its e
member associations, it has been devoted to the promotion of
search within the most essential areas ordinarily referred to as
exact and applied sciences .
 . The Social Science Research Council was established in 192
advance research in the social sciences . It acts as spokesman
seven constituent member associations representing all of the m
subdivisions of this new . field of knowledge, i . e., history, econo
sociology, psychology, political science, statistics, and anthropo
      49T20-54-pt. 1--4
tional members (universities, colleges, selected private sc
tems, educational departments of industrial concerns, volu
sociations of colleges and universities within the States, la
libraries, etc.) .
   The National Education Association was established in
elevate character advance the interests of the teaching pr
and to promote tie cause of popular education in the Unit
Broadly speaking, this powerful entity concentrates on pr
secondary schools. Its membership is reported to consist o
individuals who include, in addition to teachers, superi
school administrators, and school secretaries . It boasts th
the only organization that represents or has the possiblity of repre
great body of teachers in the United States-
thus inferring a monopolistic aim .
  The League for Industrial Democracy came into being
when it was known as the Intercollegiate Socialist Society
purpose of awakening the intellectuals of this country to
and benefits of socialism. This organization might be co
the Fabian Society in England, which was established in
spread socialism by peaceful means.
  The , Progressive Education Association was establish
1890 . Since then it has been active in introducing radical
education which are now being questioned by many . The
the idea that the individual must be adjusted to the group as
of his or her educational experience, and that democracy i
more than a system for cooperative living .
  The American Historical Association was established i
promote historical studies. It is interesting to note that af
careful consideration, in 1926, to the social sciences, a r
published under its auspices in 1934 which concluded tha
of the individual in the United States had come to an end
the future would be characterized, inevitably, by some for
lectivism and an increase in the authority of the state .
  The John Dewey Society was formed in 1936, apparentl
twofold purpose of conducting research in the field of educ
promoting the educational philosophy of John Dewey, in
whom the society was named . It could be supposed that
were members of this organization would be devoted to the
upon which Mr. Dewey had based his experiments in educat
1896 . Basically, these were pragmatic and a stimulus to
thinking. He held that ideas were instruments and their
falsity depended upon whether or not they worked successf
  The broad study which called our attention to the activities
organizations has revealed not only their support by fou
   This may explain why the foundations have played such an act
role in the promotion of the social sciences, why they have favo
so strongly the employment of social scientists by the Federal Gov
ment, and why they seem to have used their influence to transf
education into an instrument for social change.
   We wish to stress the importance of questioning change only
it might involve' developments detrimental to the interests of
American people, or when it is promoted by a relatively small
tightly knit group backed by disproportionately large amounts
money which could threaten the American ideal of competition .
   In summary, our study of these entities and their relationshi
each other seems to warrant the inference that they constitute a hi
efficient, functioning whole. Its product is apparently an educatio
curriculum designed to indoctrinate the American student from
triculation to the consummation of his education . It contrasts sha
with the freedom of the individual as the cornerstone' of our so
structure. For this freedom, it seems to substitute the group, the
of the majority, and a centralized power to enforce this will-p
sumably in the interest of all . Its development and production se
to have been largely the work of these organizations engaged' in
search, such as the Social Science Research Council and the Natio
Research Council .
   The, demand for their product seems to come from such strong
sizable aggregations of interests as the National Educational As
ciation and the American Council on Education, whose authorit
seem to see in it the means by which education can render a natio
service. They make frequent reference to this service as "synonym
with the cause of education" and tend to criticize strongly anyone
dares to doubt the validity of their conclusions .
   Its promotion appears to have been managed by such organizat
as the Progressive Education Association, the American Histori
Association, the League for Industrial Democracy, the John De
Society, and the Antidefamation League . Supplementing their eff
were others such as the Parent-Teachers Association, the Natio
Council of Churches, and the Committee for Economic Developme
each of which has played some part in adjusting the minds of Ame
can citizens to the idea of planning and to the marked changes wh
have taken place in "the public interest ."
   Others, too, are engaged in the dissemination of this idea as be
essential to the security of this country . Neither time nor funds
permitted me to direct the attention of the staff to the operations
influence of any but a few of these, beyond taking notice of th
existence and the purposes which they serve .
 controls. Evidence exists of close cooperation between
 endowed foundations, the agencies'tl rough which 'they hav
 and the educational institutions through which they have b
 tomed to make grants for research . This process may con
 an undesirable degree of concentrated power .
    It is also interesting to note that by comparison with
 research provided by foundations, those now flowing from
 ernment are so large that they dwarf foundation contributi
 promises to be true for some time to come and indicates th
 tions may extend their influence over a wider area than i
    The result of the development and operation of the
 which foundations have played such a significant role see
 provided this country with what is tantamount to a national
 education under the tight control of organizations and pers
 known to the American public . Its operations and ideas a
 plex as to be beyond public understanding or control . It
 to have resulted in an educational product which can be
 research of a predominantly empirical character in the i
 social sciences .
   In these fields the specialists, more often than not, seem t
concerned with the production of empirical data and with it
tion. Principles and their truth or falsity 'seem to have
them very little.
   In what appears from our studies to have been zeal for a
new social order in the United States, many of these social sc
 cialists apparently gave little thought to either the opini
 warnings of those who were convinced that a wholesale acc
knowledge acquired almost entirely by empirical methods wo
in a deterioration of moral standards and a disrespect for p
Even past experience which indicated that such an approa
problems of society could lead to tyranny, appears to
disregarded.
   Mr. HAYS . Mr. Chairman, I do not like to interrupt
but I have several questions . Right here it seems to me th
that it might be well to ask him to clarify . He is tossing
"empirical" around with a good deal of abandon, and
if you would mind defining what you mean by empirical?
   Mr. DODD. It is based upon the accumulation of observa
Mr. Hays, and the tabulation of those . What we would o
know as a statistical approach .
   Mr. HAYS . Thank you .
   Mr. DODD. May I continue, Sir?
   The CHAIRMAN . Yes .
   Mr. DODD . For these reasons, it has been difficult for us
the suspicion that, latent in the minds of many of the social
well trained in these same disciplines .
   In spite of this dispute within his own ranks, the social scienti
is gradually becoming dignified by the title "Social Engineer ." Th
title implies that the objective viewpoint of the pure scientist is ab
to become o bsolete in favor of techniques of control . It also s
gests that our traditional concept of freedom as the function
natural and constitutional law has already been abandoned by t
s`social engineer" and brings to mind our native fear of control
however well intended.
    In the face of this, it seems strange that foundations made
reference in their reports to the consequences to be expected fro
new science of society founded on empiricism and undisciplined
either a set of principles or proved experiments . Apparently th
were content to operate on ,the theory that they would produce usa
data for others to employ and rely upon them to account for t
 effects . It may not have occurred to their trustees that the pow
to produce data in volume might stimulate others to use it in
undisciplined fashion without first checking it against princip
discovered through the deductive process .
    Their position that they need not closely follow the effects
their support of such' grants also seems strange . Their reports of
show that they were supporting, such a new "science ." The descr
 tions, however, made it very difficult to judge the ultimate purpos
for which this support was being given .
    To summarize, both the general and the specific studies purs
by the staff during the past 6 months lead me to the tentative c
clusion that, within the social-science division of education, t
 foundations have neglected "the public interest" to a severe degree
    In my judg~? ent, this neglect may be found by the committee
have stemmed from
    The willingness of foundations to support experiments in fi
which defied control ; to support these uncontrollable experime
without first having proved them to be "in the public interest" ;
to extend this support without reporting its purpose in langua
which could be readily understood .
    I suggest that the committee give consideration to the tende
of foundation trustees to abdicate responsibility . To illustrate : T
 following statement has been taken from An American Dilemm
 the Negro Problem and Modern Democracy, a book by Gunn
 Myrdal, with the assistance of Richard Sterner and Arnold Ros
 volume II :
  This study was made possible by funds granted by Carnegie Corp .
New York . That corporation is not, however, the author, owner, publisher,
proprietor of this publication, and is not to be understood as approving
virtue of its grant any of the statements made or views expressed' ther
 special consideration to the Ford Foundation . This
gives ample evidence of having taken the initiative in sel
 poses of its own . Being of recent ong~n, it should not
 sponsible for the actions or accomplishments of any of
cessors . It is without precedent as to size, and it is the f
tion to dedicate itself openly to "problem solving" on a
   In a sense, Ford appears to be capitalizing on develop
took place long before it was founded, and which have e
take advantage of the wholesale dedication of education
purpose, the need to defend this dedication against cri
need to indoctrinate adults along these lines, the accept
executive branch of the Federal Government of respons
planning on a national and international scale, the dim
portance of the Congress and the States and the growi
the executive branch of the Federal Government, the see
pensability of control over human behavior .
   As if they had been influenced directly by these de
the trustees established separate funds for use in the fiel
tion, national planning, and politics . They set up a divis
to the behavioral sciences, which includes a center for adv
a program of research and training abroad, an institution
program, and miscellaneous grants-in-aid .
   Supplementing these major interests are such varied act
a TV radio workshop, "external grants," intercultural pu
and an operation called the East European Fund, which is
terminated .
   When it is considered that the capital resources of this
approach, or may exceed, $500 million, and that its inco
mates $30 million each year, it is obvious that before emb
the solution of "problems," some effort should be made by
to make certain that their solution is "in the public interest
   It is significant that the policies of this foundation in
funds available for certain aspects of secret military resea
the education of the Armed Forces . It becomes even more
when it is realized that the responsibility for the selec
personnel engaged in these projects is known to rest on the
itself-subject as it may be to screening by our military
  In this connection it has been interesting to examine wh
cational aspect of these unprecedented foundation activi
expected to produce . The first example is a pamphlet in
Declaration of Independence is discussed as though its
lay in the fact that it had raised two, as yet unanswered,
  1. Are men equal and do we demonstrate this equality?
  2. What constitutes "the consent of the governed" an
this phrase imply in practice?
our Constitution . Yet there seems evidence that this may h
occurred .
  I assume it is the purpose of this inquiry to gather and weigh
facts.
  Respectfully submitted by myself .
  Mr. Chairman, that is the end of the statement .
  The CHAIRMAN . What does the following page refer to, which ma
reference to charts?
  Mr. DODD . You will recall that I mentioned in my statement yest
day that the staff had made a study of the changes which had ta
place in the elements comprising the public interest from the tur
the century to the present day . That study was entitled "The E
nomics of the Public Interest ." In that study, Mr . Chairman,
these 12 charts.
   The CHAIRMAN . Are those charts to be submitted?
   Mr. 'DODD .* At counsel's convenience, I believe he plans to do
But I also believe he plans to do so when he submits that partic
study itself. Of that I am not sure .
   Mr. WORMSER . I think we will introduce it later . You may h
it now if you wish, but it would come in more logically, later,
Chairman .
   May I now offer certain material which Mr. Dodd might read i
the record to illustrate some of the things he had discussed in his te
I ony. For example, on page 45 of the record, he made a statem
  scusseng the extent to which foundations like Carnegie and Roc
feller had made contributions or expended funds for the purpose
directing education in the United States toward an international f
of reference .
   Mr. HAYS . That is a good place for a question right there,
Chairman.
   The CHAIRMAN . Were you submitting something, Mr . Wormser
   Mr. WORMSER. I was about to ; yes .
   The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hays has a question .
   Mr. HAYS . I would like you to explain a little more fully, you
that these foundations have furthered this purpose by directing ed
tion in the United States toward an international frame of refer
and discrediting the traditions to which it had been dedicated .
   What are these traditions to which it has been dedicated? T
seems to me to be a rather critical thing, and I would like to know
about it . I may get educated all over . I am reading from the re
on page 45, where you stopped. I read a little more .
   Mr. WORMSER. It is page 14 of your manuscript copy, Mr . Dod
   Mr. DODD . May I answer, Mr . Hays?
   Mr. HAYS . Yes .
 anything contrary to it is 100 percent wrong . I think Ge
 ington was a pretty smart man, and I respect him and reve
 certainly the Monroe Doctrine was an entangling alliance,
 is one of those revered cliches that we use a good deal no
 rather that this investigation got off without using any m
 than we can help .
   Mr. DODD. This is not designed to say whether it is good o
 critical or otherwise . This is the way it appeared, and this
 it unfolded .
   Mr. HAYS. I got the pretty firm impression that it was g
 pear this way the first time I ever talked to you about i
 remember last fall, more than 6 months ago, I tried to fi
 where this investigation was going, and I got pretty much
 sion that I could have almost written this myself from that
versation. That is all right . I do not want to find fault
But let us bring in the facts to prove it . Let us not stand
 of assertions .
   Mr. DODD . As I understand it, that is what counsel inte
Mr. Hays .
   Mr. WORMSER. Mr. Hays and Mr . Chairman, we expect in
of hearings to introduce in addition to the testimony of
various extracts from printed material produced or suppor
foundations themselves. There will be a considerable bo
kind of evidence.
   In this particular connection, Mr . Hays, we suggest th
subject of inquiry for the committee is whether or not
is desirable for a foundation which operates as the fiduci
of public funds. In the case of the Carnegie endowment
glad to introduce evidence later to show that they were c
produced, a propaganda machine . We are anxious to get
If there is an adequate explanation of that which takes it
class of propaganda which public funds privately manag
not be used for, we will be glad to hear it . But it seems
.this committee has the duty to inquire whether or not pr
foundations with public money is desirable .
   Mr. HAYS . You say that the Carnegie Foundation consci
duced a propaganda machine?
   Mr. WoRMSER . Yes .
   Mr. HAYS . And that is bad per se.
   Mr. WORMSER . I am presenting that to the committee to
am not trying to decide .
   Mr. HAYS. If a foundation has produced consciously a
machine, it is the Facts Forum . I have not much evidenc
staff has done much digging there . They not only have a
machine, but that outfit puts money in to defeat people l
foundation, and in the second instance, we ought to bring them in
find out why they have used the name.
   The •CHAIRMAN . If any foundations have contributed money
political purposes, I think that ought to"be developed .
   Mr. HAYS . Directly or by purporting to present facts, and doin
in a biased manner.
   The CHAIRMAN . If any of the foundations have contributed m
for, political purposes to defeat or elect any candidate, I think
ought to be developed .
   Mr. WORMSER . May I say regarding the Facts Forum, may I
that the Bureau of Internal Revenue is making a study of its ow
that institution.
  Mr. HAYS. May I say I talked to the Bureau of Internal Reve
and they have finished their study. If you cannot get it, they
make the facts available to you .
   Mr. WoRMsER. . The second thing I want to say in explanatio
that we have had considerable difficulty in getting access to f
990-A, as you know . The return of this particular foundation
finally made available to us last Friday at 4 : 30.
   Mr. HAYS . I talked to the Assistant Director about 3 : 30.
really acted fast . He told me you would get it . I appreciate
speed with which he made it available.
  The CHAIRMAN . However, the chairman miht say that with r
                                                    -
erence to making available the tax return form 990-A which is
document in which the committee is particularly interested, it
been authorized to be made available by an Executive order .
delay and the difficulty has come through ' the slowness of the
ministrative action in the Department, as I understand it, but
matter is now pretty well cleared up ; is it not, Mr. Wormser ; so
these forms are now available. In fairness to the staff, there has
really
  Mr. HAYS . I realize that, Mr . Chairman, and I just got into
picture because the staff informed me that they were having tro
getting hold of this particular one, because it seemed to be los
something . When I called, it was not lost ; they found it right a
  The CHAIRMAN . It is my understanding that you had difficu
getting some of the others also.
  Mr. WoRMSER. Yes, sir.
   The CHAIRMAN . So, it was not this particular one that was
isolated case.
  Mr. WORMSER . We gave them a list of those foundations whose
turns we wanted particularly to examine . When they finally g
us access to them, we found that many of those we wanted were s
not there, and the problem was that they had not been gotten i
the Washington office from some of the field offices . So, we still
seems to have trouble getting publicity . Maybe we will
little.
   The CHAIRMAN. As a result of my consultation with the st
expected that the foundatio4 generally will have opportun
pear, in fact will be invited to appear . The presentation by
is more or less forming the basis for the appearance of the r
tives of the various foundations .
   Mr . HAYS. This is the indictment or the bill of particular
   Mr. WORMSER . The bill of particulars is a good term, M
   Mr. HAYS . That is what I was going on . I just want
that we get this one I am talking about in the bill of parti
want to amend it right here and get them in .
   The CHAIRMAN . As I understand it, the staff have had c
sons for proceeding this way . One was that they thoug
desirable for the foundations themselves to understand th
which the staff had made in this study . From some of the
tions that Mr . Wormser, as well as myself, have had with fo
I think they are rather satisfied with this method of proc
that it is either favorable or unfavorable to them, but the
is a sound and logical method in which to proceed .
   Mr. HAYS . Mr. Chairman, let me say that I may be seem
some critical questions, but I do not want to imply that ther
any trouble between myself and the staff . It may be tha
see eye to eye on a good many things, but the staff has
responsive any time I have asked them a question to co
explain it, or to make the files available, or anything like th
has been no difficulty whatsoever on that score.
   The CHAIRMAN . Certainly I never so understood you to i
is, not only the staff, but the members of the committee them
   Mr. HAYS . Let us not be too optimistic.
   The CHAIRMAN. I am only speaking up to the present t
not projecting that into the future . If there are no further
Mr. Wormser, you may proceed .
   Mr. WORMSER . This statement was not intended to cov
thing we are going to cover in the hearings . This was in
cover what we might call the most important or main lines
we suggest. The reason for doing it now is, as the chairma
give the foundations an opportunity to know what most
matters we want to go into in relation to them .
   The CHAIRMAN . You may proceed .
   Mr. WoRMSER . I think Mr. Dodd might wish to read a
from the report of the Carnegi e Endowment which is taken
1937 yearbook, being part of the report of the division of i
and education .
   Mr. HAYS. What is this Alcove list, before you go any furthe
Would you enlighten the committee?
   Mr. DODD. The list, Mr . Hays, is a composite of titles of bo
which go as a single collection into libraries in communities . I th
the name "Alcove" is to designate that it stands by itself in whatev
library it happens to be put . I think that is how they happened
hit on "Alcove" as a word . Their full title is "International Mi
Alcove Collection." I think that is to set the tenor of the books the
selves . In other words, the general subject'of international matte
. Mr. HAYS . I take it that the staff does not approve of this collecti
is that right?
   Mr. DODD . No, Mr . Hays . I think counsel is introducing this as
example of the fact that the Carnegie Corp. or the Carnegie Endo
ment for Peace was interested in awakening the people of this coun
to an international viewpoint . This is not to mean that it is go
or bad ~ sir.
   Mr. 'IIAYS . All right. That is what I want to get clear . That su
me.
   Mr. DODD . I sincerely hope, as that statement was read, that th
are no instances of an attempt at what we call quality judgments .
   May I proceed, Mr . Chairman .
   The CHAIRMAN . You may proceed.
   Mr. DODD (reading)
  After a collection has reach 100 titles, no further books are sent . In this
funds are released to establish new Alcoves elsewhere .
  The librarian agrees when accepting the initial installment to interest read
In every way possible in the books and in their purpose and often this perso
enthusiasm and cooperation add greatly to the success of the work . The lo
press is generous in giving space for the announcement and description of
Alcove titles, 4 of which are sent every 3 months, thus permitting the very la
publications to be chosen .
   Then on page 59 of this same yearbook
                        INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS CLUBS .
  The international relations clubs organized under the auspices of the divis
throughout the world show an increase in 1936 to 66, making a total of
These clubs are most numerous in the 48 States of the United States, in al
which they are active . Clubs are also organized in 32 other countries reac
halfway round the globe to distant Siam and including such parts of the Uni
States as Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and also the Philippines . For 20 y
the work of the international relations clubs has been described in these repo
It is an integral part of the work of the division carried along the lines so of
laid down in these pages .
   On page .62 :
   There are now (that is as of December 31, 1936) 157 groups organized
foreign countries .
in their studies .
   And finally this comes from President Butler's report to
meeting of the board of trustees on page 179
  As you see from the annual report, we have now in the United S
800 and 900 international relations clubs, chiefly in the smaller in
learning, college and high school . They meet on the average of
They read and discuss endowment publications, the news of the da
bearing upon economic cooperation and peace .
  We have in addition about 800 International Mind Alcoves in publ
These bear our name . They consist of books, 30, 40, 50, sometimes 1
which can be read either by young people or old, as the case may
give an account of the characteristics, the geography, the history, th
the products, the life of other peoples . Sometimes there is incl
dealing with the psychology and the habits of other people than ou
are producing a very profound effect upon the mind of the young
United States and have shown themselves to be very practical, inde
   Mr. WORMSER . Again in the same area, I would like wit
mission, Mr . Chairman, for Mr. Dodd to read from the 19
of the Carnegie Endowment, which contains a report cal
mendations of the President. The president, incidentally,
at the moment was Alger Hiss . I would like Mr . Dodd to r
at page 16.
   Mr . RAYS. Would you describe that again, and tell us
I am sorry I did not hear everything you said . I did he
Alger Hiss .
   Mr. WORMSER. Yes . It is from the 1947 yearbook of th
Endowment for International Peace . Entered at page 15
of a document called Recommendations of the Presid
Trustees. It is signed by Alger Hiss, president.
   Mr . HAYS . It was an unfortunate thing when the Secret
recommended him to the Carnegie Foundation, was it not
   Mr. WORMSER . I think we would all agree on that .
   Mr . DODD (reading)
  Among the special circumstances favorable to an expansion of t
own direct activities, the most significant is the establishment o
Nations with its' headquarters in New York, and with the United
leading and most influential member.
  The United States was the chief architect of the United Nations and
support . The opportunity for an endowed American institution ha
jectives, traditions, and prestige of the endowment, to support a
United Nations is very great. No other agency appears to be so favor
as is the endowment for the undertaking of such a program .
  So far as we have been able to ascertain, no other agency is cont
undertaking of such a program . Consequently, I recommend most ea
the endowment construct its program for the period that lies ahe
for the support and the assistance of the United Nations . I would
this program be conceived of as having two objectives . First,
widely educational in order to encourage public understanding a
the United Nations at home and abroad . Second, it should aid in
of wise policies, both by our own Government in its capacity as a
United Nations, and by the United Nations Organization as a who
Council on World Affairs and the projected World Affairs Council in
Francisco are examples.
   Of particular importance is the unusual opportunity of reaching large s
ments of the population by establishing relations of a rather novel sort w
the large national organizations which today are desirous of supplying th
members with objective information on publip affairs, including internatio
issues . These organizations, designed to servc,,respectively, the broad intere
of business, church, women, farm, labor, veterans, educational, and other la
groups of our citizens, are not equipped to set up foreign policy research sta
on their own . The endowment should supply these organizations with ba
information about the United Nations, and should assist them both in selecti
topics of interest to their members and in presenting those. topics so as to
most readily understood by their members.
   We should urge the Foreign Policy Association and the Institute of Paci
Relations to supply similar service on other topics of international significan
 Explanation should also be made by the endowment as to the possibilities
 increasing the effectiveness of the radio and motion pictures in public educati
on world affairs.
  Mr. HAYS. -Mr.Wormser, may I ask a question?
  Mr. WORMSER. Please, Mr . Hays .
  Mr. HAYS . What was the purpose of putting that in the recor
  Mr. WORMSER . I am trying to give a few illustrations of some
the more important statements which Mr. Dodd made in his rep
to give some justification for lines of inquiry. As I said before,
asked the committee to consider whether propaganda by a publ
foundation privately managed but consisting of public money in
sence is desirable or proper : We believe we have evidence to s
that the Carnegie Foundation or Endowment for International Pea
has created, as I said, a propaganda machine. Its propaganda mig
be good .
   Mr. HAYS . Let us explore while we are at it and see if it is in
way responsible for the present floundering foreign policy we ha
There seems to be some connection between Mr. Dulles and this C
negie Foundation. Maybe we will get to the bottom of that .
   There might be something useful out of this after all .
   The CHAIRMAN . I suggest we can make our observations' on t
after the hearing has been further developed .
   Mr. WORMSER. These are merely illustrations and not the compl
story in any way .
   Mr. HAYS . I do not expect the staff to follow that suggestion,
it is the line of inquiry I would like to follow .
   The CHAIRMAN . Do you have further suggestions there . ?
   Mr. WORMSER . Yes ..
   The CHAIRMAN . I am sure the staff will give full support to
suggestion of the gentleman .
   Mr. HAYS . I .will`- even'try to get them some more money for th
   Mr . WORMSER'. I believe at page 26 of the record Mr . Dodd refer
to the operations or activities of the foundations in changing our e
now exercise a maximum of initiative. Today they have a vital p
cally every type of progressive educational experiment underway
Possibly there has been no more radical and forward-looking study
can scene than is presented in the 16-volume report of the Social S
sion of the American Historical Association, which was begun in 1
recently completed .
  The report demands a radical change in many of the major pre
lying our economic, social, and cultural life . This ultraprogress
sponsored and supported to the extent of $340,000 by the Carne
addition, the corporation has contributed an aggregate of $1,404,
mentation in adult education, $309,500 to the study of radio in edu
aggregate of $5,700,000 to the endowment and support of progre
mental college programs in general, and specifically at Chicago, B
Stevens, Southwestern, and over $5 million to the promotion of
efforts in the fine arts, especially the pictorial and graphic arts
   Mr. WORMSER . Mr. Chairman, this appears, I believe,
of the mimeographed statement .
  Mr. HAYS . We will have an oportunity to come back a
some of these statements later .
  The CHAIRMAN. Yes .
  Mr. WORMSER. Mr. Dodd mentioned in connection wit
American Dilemma, by Gunnar Myrdal, that there were
ments. i n that book critical of our Constitution. With yo
sion I would like him to read several of these statements t
what he means.
  Mr. DODD . This is the first of approximately four such
Mr. Chairman .
  Indeed, the new republic began its career with a reaction . Char
An Economic Interpretation of the Constitution of the United State
of modern historians, throwing aside the much cherished natio
which had blurred the difference in spirit between the Declaration
ence and the Constitution, have shown that the latter was conc
siderable suspicion against democracy and fear of "the people ."
nated by property consciousness and designed as a defense against
spirit let loose during the Revolution.
  This conservatism, in fundamental principles, has, to a great
perverted into a nearly fetishistic cult of the Constitution . . This
since the 150-year-old Constitution is in many respects impractical
for modern conditions and since, furthermore, the drafters of the
it technically difficult to change even if there were no popular feeli
change.
  Modern historical studies of how the Constitution came to be as
that the Constitutional Convention was nearly a plot against the c
Until recently the Constitution has been used to block the popula
   The CHAIRMAN . Will you repeat that last sentence?
   Mr. DODD . Yes, Mr. Chairman .
  Modern historical studies of how the Constitution came to be a
that the Constitutional Convention was nearly a plot against the c
Until recently the Constitution has been used to block the popul
14th amendment inserted after the Civil War to protect the civil
   Mr. DODD . I said it was about four different excerpts .
   Mr. HAYS . All lifted out of context, no doubt.
   Mr. DODD. I personally read the book, Mr . Hays, but I would
say it had been lifted out of context.
  Mr. HAYS. The way you read it, I thought it was all one stateme
It islour different places in the book. Is that correct?
   Mr. DODD Yes. The first one appears on page 7, the second one
page 12, the third one on page 13, and the fourth' which I read
sentence No. 1 in a paragraph appearing on page 14 . Broadly spe
in it, is a sequential statement .
     r. HAYS . There are statements in'there that'I certainly disag
strongly with, and I think are damaging and untrue, but I want to
the page so I can read the whole thing, and find out what they
related to.           ' '
   The CHAIRMAN . I think to have the "pages listed is a very go
thing.
   Mr. HAYS . I want to make it perfectly clear that I think some
those statements are certainly statements that the committee has ev
valid, son to find fault with .
  Mr. DODD . . It goes'on, Mr . Chairman
  This trait, as well as the other one just mentioned is of paramount importan
for the Negro problem as we shall show in some detail in later. chapteis . Th
is,a-
  Mr. HAYS . Read that sentence again about the Constitution bei
difficult to amend . It sounds almost like, Mr . Bricker might ha
said it.
  Mr. DODD (reading)
  This Is 'unfortunate since the 150-year-old Constitution is in many resp
impractical and ill-suited for modern conditions and since, furthermore-
  Mr. HAYS . That is not the one.
  Mr. DODD (reading)
  The drafters of the document made it technically difficult to change even
there were no popular feeling against change .
  Mr. HAYS . Part of that statement is certainly true, we will ha
to admit . I do not admit your premise.
  Mr. WOLCOTT. Is that bad?
  Mr. HAYS . No ; I am for it being difficult to change . I rath
enjoyed the attempt that was made here not long ago .
  Mr. DODD . Then it goes on, Mr . Hays
  Each legislative statute is judged by the common citizen in terms of his co
ception of the higher natural law . He decides whether it is` just or unjust
has the dangerous attitude that if it is unjust he may feel free to disobey it .
as to disobey the laws when they are enacted . America has beco
where exceedingly much is permitted in practice, but at the same ti
much is forbidden by law .
  And the final statement is as follows
  The popular explanation of the disparity in America between ide
behavior is that Americans do not have the slightest intention of
the ideals which they talk about and put into their Constitution an
Americans are accustomed to talk loosely and disparagingly about
the American creed as lip service and even hypocrisy . Foreign
more prone to make such a characterization .
  Mr. WORMSER . Mr. Chairman, I have here a quotatio
you will turn to the bottom of page '31, Mr . Dodd refe
tendency by trustees to delegate their responsibility .
apparently several types of delegation . This very short
I shall read myself with your permission illustrates one
from a book byy Shelby M. Harrison and F . Emerson And
lished by the Russell Sage Foundation in 1946, at page 4
  The primary function of a board of trustees is the broad det
policies in harmony with the foundations' charter . However, wh
authority has been vested in the board, it has neither the time no
special knowledge required for detailed administration of the work
foundations.
  I would like to have Mr . Dodd read most of two. letters
Prof. J . Fred Rippy, of the University of Chicago to the
E. Cox, who was chairman of the previous committee w
ferred to as the Cox committee. The first is dated August
second is dated November 8, 1952 .
  With your permission, I have deleted two small sections
letter for the sole reason that they name individuals, and
ance with our desire to keep individuals out of these, hear
as possible, I would prefer not to have them read into
If the committee wants I can show them the original lett
  Mr. HAYS. I think it would be a good idea for the comm
the letters before you read them . Who is this Professor
what is his ax to grind?
  Mr. WORMSER . I have here an extract from Who's W
  Mr. HAYS. Of course, he writes that himself . . That is
estimate of themselves.
  Mr. WORMSER . It will give you his university connectio
his A . B . at Southwestern, his A . M . at Vanderbilt and h
the University of California . He has had three fellowshi
the Guggenheim Foundation, one from Carnegie. He h
assistant professor of history at the University of Calif
was'beforethat I believe an instructor' in history at Ch
assistant professor or associate professor . He was a ful
history . Yes, he is still there .
   Mr. HAYS. I assume the letters are critical of the university .
   Mr. WORMSER. They are not critical of the university ; no .
   Mr. HAYS . I do not see any reason to delete . He mentions his op
ion about these people . If they are not so, let them come in and
so. If you are going to put his letter in, let us not get in the ha
of dropping out things .
   Mr. DODD . I better read from their original .
   Mr. HAYS . They will go in in their entirety?
   The CHAIRMAN . Yes .
   Mr. HAYS. It is only his opinion .
   Mr. WORMSER. I did it for their protection .
   Mr. IJAYs . Never mind . If you are going to put it in, let t
come in and protect themselves . Maybe they will have someth
to say about him .
   Mr . WOLCOTT. I think Mr. Wormser's idea was that we should
turn these hearings into an investigation of individuals' mora
or attainments or qualifications and so forth . I respect the fact t
if his opinions of individuals are not germane to this subject, t
probably should be deleted . But I recognize also a member's rig
to object to deleting any part of them . I suppose that as Memb
of the Congress and congressional committees are immune fr
publishing libelous statements, so I think we are safe in reading
I do not know that we want to contribute to it .
   Mr. HAYS. I do not want to contribute to any libelous stateme
but I think it might turn out this man-and I am saying it migh
 because I don't know and I have not had a chance to read the lette
but it might turn out he is a little bit disgruntled, and frequently
get letters from people like that . He said he had some sad expe
ences. Maybe from his viewpoint they were sad . I do not kn
 He mentions his names of people who gave him sad experiences a
says they are arrogant, and let them come in and say what they th
 about him .
   Mr. WOLCOrr . If you want to think of the sadness of others, y
 will make others sad .
   Mr. HAYS. Let us leave the letters out . I do not like to put in pa
 of letters, because when you start deleting you make the public s
 picious that everything is not right . Let us either leave them
 or put them in . If you are solicitous about the people he mentio
 I am just willing to forget them .
   Mr. WOLCOTT . I surely am not. I have not seen the letters
 might agree with you .
   Mr. HAYS . It may be a good thing if the committee read the lett
 so we would all know what we are talking about, and put them
 tomorrow . That might illuminate the subject.
      49720-54-pt . 1-5
  Mr . DODD . I am reading from a letter dated November 8
a Prof. J. Fred Rippy, University of Chicago,  department
It is addressed to the Honorable E. E. Cox
  DEAR CONGRESSMAN Cox : Since I wrote you on August 4, 1951,
Flexner, a man who has had much experience with the foundatio
lished a book entitled "Funds and Foundations," in which he exp
similar to those contained` in my letter. I call your attention to
pages of Flexner's volume : 84, 92, 94, 124, and 125 . Here Dr. F
that the foundation staffs had the capacity to pass wisely on
projects and individuals for which and to which grants were made,
that the grants should have been made to universities as contribut
endowments for research and other purposes .
  The problem is clearly one of the concentration of power in hand
not possibly be competent to perform the enormous task which the
had the presumption to undertake . This, says Flexner, was Moth
and "absurd ." In my opinion, it was worse than that . The staff
of favoritism . The small committees who passed on the grants
and to individuals were dominated by small coteries connected
eastern universities . A committee on Latin American studies, se
1940's, for instance, was filled with Harvard graduates . A single
history on the Harvard faculty had the decisive word regarding e
for aid presented by historians .
  By granting these subsidies to favorite individuals and favore
foundations contribute to inequalities in opportunity and interfe
trade and ideas ." They increase the power of favored groups to
colleges and universities . Men whose power exceeds their wisdom
are not guided by the principle of equality of opportunity, could bec
If possible, under the terms of our Federal Constitution, these found
either be taxed out of existence or compelled to make their grants
and universities, to be distributed by faculty committees of these
Evenhanded justice may not prevail even then because such justi
achieved in human relations . But a greater approximation to eve
tice will be made because these local committees will have more in
edge of recipients . This, as you know, is the fundamental justific
centralization of power, for the local autonomy which was so prom
thinking of our Founding Fathers .
       Very sincerely,
                                                                J. F
  The CHAIRMAN . Mr . Wormser, do you have anything fu
  Mr. WORMSER. Just one thing, Mr. Chairman . I have
memorandum
  Mr. HAYS . Wait a minute. Are we leaving Professor R
I wanted to ask a question or two before we leave him com
  Mr. WORMSER. I thought you were going to read the l
has not been introduced.
  Mr . HAYS . We are going to read it, but maybe we will n
duce it . If we are going to introduce letters from isol
would not like to use the word "obscure" because I neve
him-professors, maybe we ought to know a little more
Maybe we ought to have him in here to ask a few questions
staff have any knowledge whether he ever applied to Ha
vated him to write this, who he is, why that is his opinion . So wh
There are 165 million other people who might have a different opini
So where do we go from there?
   Mr. WORMSER . It is introduced only as his opinion .
   Mr. HAYS . He says the board of trustees of a university woul
better, in a bald statement, to decide what to do with this money
would not want to get into personalities, but I can think of some bo
of trustees that I would not trust with a $5 bill . I know some of t
personally, and who appointed them . Maybe I would not trust
foundations either, but I would not say it is better without somet
to back it up . If you put this stuff in the record, it has a sor
sanctity. It has the force and effect as though it were true .
   Mr. WORMSER . Mr . Hays, the only way you can judge, I suppo
is by putting things in the record and weighing them when they
in there.
   Mr. HAYS. That is all right . Go ahead . I got my observations
about them. If I have cast any doubt about it, I am glad .
   Mr. WoRMSER . Mr. Chairman, I have a memorandum here wh
Miss Casey prepared for Mr . Dodd on the National Education As
ciation . We would like to introduce it into the record . It is p
ably too lengthy to read . It is 27 pages. Mr . Dodd might identify
 and go over its general import, and then I would like you to giv
 permission, if you will, to have it physically incorporated in
 record .
   Mr. HAYS. It is a memorandum Miss Casey prepared on what?
   Mr. WORMSER. A staff memorandum on the National Educat
 Association .
   I might say, Mr . Chairman, that the National Education Assoc
 tion is an extremely important factor, obviously, in the work of
 foundations in the educational field insofar as it is the organiza
 which represents the teachers who ultimately use the work, we
 gest, produced by the foundations in the educational area .
   Mr. HAYS . It is not a suspect organization?
   Mr. WORMSER . How do ynu mean "suspect"?
   Mr. HAYS . Having any devious motives or subversive influence
   Mr. WORMSER. No, no subversive influence.
   Mr. HAYS. I used to belong to it . I want to be sure I do not
 in trouble here.
    Mr. WORMSER. We do think they are subject to your examina
 for various reasons.
    Mr. HAYS . I do not mind . They used to take money out of
 paycheck for membership without asking me . I just wanted to
 that in, if is -is a subversive organization .
tion in 1948 entitled, "Education for International Unders
American Schools," with a subtitle "Suggestions and R
tions ." The gist of it, Mr. Chairman, is to,clarify the imp
the teacher has to foster two things in this country : a dev
an understanding of international affairs, and, at the sam
teacher must lead the way to a breakdown, so to speak, of
ance to a local or nationalistic viewpoint.
   (The memorandum is as follows :)
Memorandum to : Mr . Dodd .                                       MA
From : Kathryn Casey .
Subject : National Education Association .
   One example of foundation support of organizations which displa
philosophy in their publications is the National Education Associ
  This association has received from the Carnegie and Rockefeller
approximately one and a half million dollars (a complete tabulation
by year of grant and nature of project) .
  In 1948 the association issued a volume entitled "Education for
Understanding in American Schools-Suggestions and Recommenda
pared by the Committee on International Relations, the Associatio
vision and Curriculum Development, and the National Council fo
Studies-all departments of NEA . The representatives of each of
ments on the committee as stated in the front of the book is
Representing the Committee on International Relations of the Nat
  tion Association
     Ben M . Cherrington, director, Social Science Foundation, Unive
        chairman .
     Rachel Evans Anderson, chairman, Physical Science Departm
        Jackson High School, New York, N. Y . (since September 194
     Rufus E . Clement, president, Atlanta University (since Sept
     Vanett Lawler, associate executive secretary, Music Educat
        Conference, and music education consultant, Pan American
        September 1947) .
     William F . Russell, dean, Teachers College, Columbia Universi
     Howard E . Wilson, associate director, Division of Intercours
        tion, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace (since
     James T. Shotwell, director, Division of Economics and Histo
        Endowment for International Peace (until September 1948)
Representing the Association for Supervision and Curriculum Dev
  department of the National Education Association
     C . O. Arndt, professor of education, New York University .
     Gertrude A . Hankamp, executive secretary, Association for Sup
        Curriculum Development .
     Gordon N. Mackenzie, professor of education, and chief, Divi
        riculum and Teaching, Teachers College, Columbia Universi
     Helen Frances Storen, assistant professor of education, Teach
        Columbia University .
Representing the National Council for the Social Studies, a depar
  National Education Association
    Howard R . Anderson, chief, instructional problems, Division
        Education, United States Office of Education .
    Merrill F. Harshorn, executive secretary, National Council fo
        Studies .
ary schools have that responsibility ; and every administrator and superv
as well as every teacher of every subject on every grade level shares a part o
  Another fundamental question to which the committee and staff devoted
tended consideration in the early stages of the project was : What shoul
the specific objectives of school programs for international understanding
assistance on this point the committee sent letters of inquiry to 300 distingu
Americans of wide experience in world affairs, two-thirds of whom replied
considered and useful statements . These statements were evaluated b
scholars, journalists, and public officials who met with the committee at P
Manor, Pa ., in January 1947 for a 3-day discussion of the same basic ques
Ideas obtained from these sources, as revised after review by others an
committee discussion, are presented in chapter 2 and elaborated in chapter
  The next question was : How can educational effort be most effectively foc
on, and most efficiently expended in, the achievement of these agreed-upon o
tives? At this point the help of curriculum experts and classroom teachers
solicited. Arrangements were made to have this question given systematic
sideration by experienced teachers enrolled in the 1947 summer sessions o
colleges and universities and 2 city school systems in the United States, an
the UNESCO Seminar for Teachers at Sevres, France . 'Faculty members re
senting 12 of these 26 cooperating summer schools met with the project s
and 3 members of the committee for a 3-day conference in Washington in
to make advance plans for the .summer program . During June and July s
members visited 14 of the summer-school groups to assist them in their wor
the project and to receive their oral suggestions and written materials . . Rep
from the other 12 summer groups were received by mail . During'' the sprin
summer of 1947 additional help was obtained by mail from teachers, supervis
and administrators in all parts of the country. The results of these sev
undertakings are embodied in chapters 4 and 5 .
  The preface (page vii) also states : "Original financial support for the pr
was a grant of $13,500 from the National Education Association's war
peace fund, a fund established by contributions from many thousands of tea
members during 1943-45 in order to enable their association to play a m
significant role in "winning , the war and securing the peace." A subseq
grant of $13,000 from the Carnegie Corporation of New York, in October 1
which permitted a substantial expansion of the scope of the project, is he
acknowledged with deep appreciation . Although funds from the Carnegie
poration of New York materially aided the preparation of this report, it s
be stated that that corporation is not the author, owner, publisher, or propr
of this publication, and is not to be understood as approving by virtue of
grant any of the statements made or views expressed therein ."
  In addition to stressing the Building America series and UNESCO mate
throughout, the volume contains the following statements
  In the foreword by Warren Robinson Austin, then United States represent
at the U . N. he states : "The Assembly of 1947 unanimously passed a resolu
calling upon the member states of the United Nations to provide for effec
teaching about the United Nations in the schools. Education for Internati
Understanding in American Schools is one appropriate response on the par
the American people to the United Nations call . It suggests practical ways
means of extending the fine work American teachers have already underta
for international understanding.
  "The United Nations is properly presented as a facility to be used by peo
and government, and to be changed by them from time to time to fit their ne
not as an isolated institution to deal with problems for which the me
nations might like to escape responsibility .
  "This, in my judgment, is the foundation stone of international u
  "One of the reasons that education is a precondition of peace i
world stems from the fact that conflicts are basically caused by co
between popular conceptions on the one side, and the realities of the
on the other side . In the last hundred years, science and technology
ally changed the conditions of life and the relationships of people
introduced mass production and specialization and rendered obso
handicraft economy . Nation-states must adapt themselves to the c
have taken place through some such machinery as the United Nation
  "This involves rationalization of production and distribution
wide basis . It means, for example, that peoples and nations mu
act cooperatively on such essential matters as employment, expansi
culture, health, and trade . Solution of economic problems on a pur
basis without regard to the effect of their conduct on other people
breeds economic war .
  "Development of international collaboration is going on at a
pace . Witness the cooperative planning of the nations of the We
sphere, the European recovery program and the steps toward Eur
and the work of the Food and Agriculture Organization and the I
Trade Organization on a worldwide basis .
  "All of these and many other activities are limited and inhib
extent that citizens of the member states cling to obsolete ideas a
contrary to the facts of the 20th century . Therefore, the Uni
relies upon education to develop the understandings essential to it
operation. The modern rate of change is so rapid that we can
ourselves with passing on the old skills and beliefs generation t
  "In carrying forward this task of enlightenment for adapta
requirements of a changing world, teachers have a vast new reservo
informaton in the documentation of the United Nations . Here is
to the interpreters-the writers of books, producers of educational
educational radio-to translate the findings of United Nations o
in terms that can be understood by the average citizen . Without
standing cooperation, rational plans of political leaders cannot
out.
  "The rapid adaptation of modern people to the potentialities o
can result in knitting them together in such relationships of inte
that peace becomes the only practical condition of existence . T
on the side of international collaboration. It is the high mission
to teach these facts. If this is done, the youth of today, and suc
erations, will become increasingly competent to unite the strength
to maintain peace ."
                          CHAPTER 1 . THE CHALLENGE
  Page 2
  "* * * It is no longer possible to draw sharp distinctions bet
and domestic policies, for the decisions on many questions that s
cern only the United States and its people now cause serious r
throughout the world. Our traditional pillars of national self
geographic invulnerability, military supremacy, and economic in
now seem less secure than they once did . The awareness of t
situation is being :diffused rapidly and forcibly among our people .
standable that this growing awareness is accompanied -1iy co
anxiety."
matters of international concern . Collaboration among the nations for econom
social, and cultural welfare is being organized and given administrative inst
ments through the Economic and Social Council, and the specialized agencies :
International Bank, the International Monetary Fund, the Food and' Agricult
Organization, the World Health Organization, the International Trade Organi
tion, the International Labor Organization, the United Nations Education
Scientific, and Cultural Organization, and others . The fundamental problem
formulating standards acceptable to all peoples to guide the relationships
groups with one another receives the continuous attention of a Commission
Human Rights.
   "The United States has assumed full obligations under the charter and
repeatedly declared officially that it regards full participation in United Nat
activities as a fundamental tenet of its foreign policy . The' creation and op
tion of the United Nations, however, is not the whole answer to the probl
   Page 7 :
   "* * * The beginning has been made, but it is only a beginning .' Much rema
to be done and it is this `much' that is . the crux of the challenge that faces Ame
can'teachers today .

   "Today's problems must be solved by the adults of today . The immedi
obligation of teachers, therefore, is to act as adults among adults, and to p
whatever knowledge and ability they have in . the service of the. communit
an effort to achieve responsible public decisions that will arrest the trends
.may result in another conflict . Teachers must do more' than this . They m
improve their own grasp of the world's problems and the new relationship of
United States to these problems in order to exert a positive and construct
influence for peace .
   "The other situation facing the teaching profession today is the long-term o
the education of our children . The obligations here are manifold and t
:encompass the needs of the next few years as well as the years beyond.
needs of the next few years are of immense importance, for our youth are grow
up in the midst of crisis . It is therefore imperative that they (our youth)
equipped to understand the nature and complexity of problems that surro
them and that they be trained in the art of judgment that will be ultimat
refle ted in the public decisions that constitute the foundation of official gov
mental policies. Since it seems evident that the firm establishment of a w
 organization and the achievement of a world order will be a slow and grad
process, the children in our schools will be called upon to sustain, and strengt
this movement and to lend their efforts to its advancement.
   "Teachers, thus, carry a larger responsibility than most of their fel
citizens for contributing to the maintenance of enduring peace . More t
average influence in adult community life can properly be expected of
 because of their special qualifications of training and professional sta
And, in addition, they are invested with a unique obligation to influence c
zen action for peace for years to come by reason of their position of lead
 ship with respect to the younger generation . As citizens, teachers must
to give children and youth a chance of survival ; as teachers, they must e
children and youth to make use of that chance ."
   Page 8 :
   "* * * It is more important than ever that teachers recognize the import
 of educating for international understanding in our elementary and second
 schools . This is not to say that the responsibility ends here, for it does
 However, it can be said that acceptance of the responsibility to educate
 children in international understanding is to give them a basic preparation
 can be utilized in facing the problems that now and will continue to emer
   Page 10 :
  Page 11 :
   "The long-range goal of education for international understan
peace and human welfare, achieved and maintained through a pe
order operating through international organizations . The immed
of such education in the elementary and secondary schools of the
is the development of American citizens who are conscious of th
gations to mankind .
   "The measure of success for a school program in internationa
ing is the extent to which the young people who are graduated fro
after 11, 12, or 13 years of opportunities to grow in internationa
ing can demonstrate both individually and in their communities t
Nation, an ability to think and act as Americans who see beyond
of their own Nation and its own problems . Such a citizen migh
world-minded American ."
  Page 12 :
  "* * * These 16 experts met with the commitees sponsoring the p
ect for a 3-day conference at Pocono Manor, Pa ., January 18-20,
conference exhaustive discussion was devoted to the question of wh
minded American should know, feel, and do . The names of me
Pocono Conference are given in the acknowledgments .
  "Out of the 200 letters and the 500-page transcript of the proce
Pocono conference, the staff and sponsoring committees formulate
statements designed to identify some of the characteristics of wor
toward which school programs in `education for international u
might be directed . After criticisms and suggestions from many per
to a succession of revisions, a list of 10 marks of the world-min
was agreed upon by the committees . The list is as follows
                      "Marks of the World-Minded American
   "I . The world-minded American realizes that civilization may
by another world war .
   "II. The world-minded American wants a world at peace in
and justice are assured for all .
   "III . The world-minded American knows that nothing in human
war inevitable .
  "IV. The world-minded American believes that education can bec
ful force for achieving international understanding and world peace .
   "V . The world-minded American knows and understands how peo
lands live and recognizes the common humanity which underlies a
of culture.
  "VI . The world-minded American knows that unlimited national
is a threat to world peace and that nations must cooperate to achi
human progress .
  "VII . The world-minded American knows that modern technology
ise of solving the problem of economic security and that internati
tion can contribute to the increase of well-being for all men .
   "VIII . The world-minded American has a deep concern for th
of humanity .
  "IX . The world-minded American has a continuing interest in
and he devotes himself seriously to the analysis of international
all the skill and judgment he can command .
  "X. The world-minded American acts to help bring about a worl
which liberty and justice are assured for all ."
    "* * * More recently, the idea has become established that the preserva
 of international peace and order may require that force be used to comp
 nation to conduct its affairs within the framework of an established w
 system . The most modern expression of this doctrine of collective security
the United Nations Charter ."
   Page 31 :
   "* * * The social causes of war are overwhelmingly more important than
attitudes and behavior of individuals . If this be true, the primary approac
the prevention of war must involve action in the area of social and polit
 organization and control . The role of the individual, however, is not u
portant . It must be recognized that individuals do have tendencies to
pugnacity and aggression, that they react to frustration, that they respon
emotional appeals of aggressive leaders, and that they can develop callous
 toward violence and human suffering. All these human traits make war
possible, but by no means inevitable. The educational problem both in and ou
school is to assist individuals to recognize their own behavior tendencies a
 assist them in directing their behavior toward peaceful and other soci
approved ends ."
   Page 34 :
   "* * * While we need not demonstrate the proposition that a world-mi
American has a deep faith in the power of education generally, something
mains to be said of the power of education as a force for achieving internati
understanding and world peace . Here the matter is much broader than fo
education in American schools. Education for international understanding
volves the use of education as a force for conditioning the will of a people
it comprises the home, the church, the school, and the community . It uti
old techniques and mass media such as the printed word, the cinema, the ra
and now television. It involves, too, the efficacy of education for peace as a f
among all peoples of the world and not merely the United States .
   "In an absolute sense, there is no empirical evidence to prove that educa
can become a powerful force for world peace. It is not, however, necessa
have this proof for the world-minded American to place a faith in educatio
an instrument for world peace . We do know that education has contrib
substantially to the attainment of lesser goals and with this knowledge ther
reason to believe that education can make a substantial contribution to
achievement of this high purpose.
   "It is not' enough, however, for the world-minded American to believe
simply because education has accomplished certain ends, it can assist in att
ing world peace . Such a belief, if carried no further, rests on a tenuous ba
assumption that mere exposure to a bombardment of ideas and the comple
of certain mechanical processes will produce a desired result ."
   Page 35 :
   "* * * The world-minded American believes that the force of education a
factor for peace lies in the capacity of the educative process to develop stand
and values, and to supply knowledge and perception, and from these two to
duce citizens who understand the necessity and desirability of peace and the
they can play in achieving it ."
   Page 36 :
                   "Education for Peace Through Mass Media
   "World-minded Americans are aware of the tremendous educational potenc
the media of mass communication-the press, film, and radio . Teachers fro
different countries, assembled at Endicott, N. Y ., in August 1946 for the W
Conference of the Teaching Profession, declared :
  "'The influence of the press is limited only by the extent of literacy ;
radio leaps across national boundaries to inform and inspire all who have e
education ."
  Page 37 :
  "* * * UNESCO offers a direct means through which the power o
may be channeled for the gradual achievement of its overall object
has seldom been an opportunity of this kind offered to the people o
It behooves the world-minded American to know what UNESCO
it is attempting to do . Having discovered this, he should lend hi
its support. Every person has a part to play in promoting the
UNESCO, but because of the nature of the job to be done an extr
large responsibility rests upon members of the teaching profession
  Page 44 :
"The World-Minded American Believes that Unlimited National
  Is a Threat to World Peace and that Nations Must Cooperate
  Peace and Human Progress
  "* * * The nation-state system has been in existence for about thre
Although serious attempts have been made by many of the nations
period to establish permanent peace on a worldwide basis, all su
have failed. The nation-state system has not been able to the pre
abolish wars . Many persons believe that enduring peace cannot be
long as the nation-state system continues as at present constitut
system of international anarchy-a species of jungle warfare . End
cannot be attained until the nation-states surrender to a world o
the exercise of jurisdiction over those problems with which the
themselves unable to deal singly in the past . If like conditions con
future as in the past, like situations will arise . Change the cond
the situations will change ."
  Page 45
  "* * * Unfortunately man did not attain peace through the n
system on a worldwide basis .
  "So long as these narrow nationalistic ideas continue to be h
people in all nations today, there is a threat to peace .
  Page 46 :
                          "The Society of Nations Today
   "We are likely to take the present nation-state system for grante
doing, we are likely to overestimate its permanence and undere
significance . A study of the development of nation-states in wo
raises the possibility that since the society of nations is only thr
old, the system is not necessarily permanent but may be only a stage
tion of political groups . On the other hand, since we are faced to
actuality of some 60 independent, sovereign political entities, reco
be given to the difficulty of reconciling the objectives of their forei
Attempts to bring about world cooperation in trade, social welfare
armaments, and education are blocked by nations who are either too
too unenlightened to be willing to cooperate . Since collective acti
frequently calls for unanimity to achieve a desired goal, the failu
the powers to cooperate will block the attempt. World organizat
their strength from the voluntary participation and support g
member nations."
   Page 53
   "* * * Role of public opinion : Some knowledge of governmental s
of particular importance in understanding the role of publicopinio
policy, for in democratic countries, the public is ultimately the judge
ernmental actions. In these countries, therefore, the public will be
arbiter of the issue of peace or war .
the role of approval or disapproval after a course of action has been emba
upon.
  "There is one characteristic of our system that does not obtain in many o
democracies-the pressure group . These are individuals or groups devote
special pleading of all types and trained in the art of influencing legisia
They are often very influential in determining the course of goverme
action .
  "In parliamentary systems, much the same situation obtains . It ma
said, however, that in some parliamentary systems, notably the British sys
official conduct of policy is even more responsive to public opinion than i
United States since the group in control of the Government may be more ea
deposed from office .
  "In totalitarian countries, there is the facade of popular control of govern
but with opposition carefully controlled and representative bodies caref
chosen, there is seldom if ever any decision except approval of what the lea
desire. This may not always be the case, however, and it behooves the wo
minded American to give some attention to the role of public opinion in tot
tarian states."
  Page 54 :
                           "International Organization
   "The world-minded American is deeply concerned with the problem of
world organizations can be made to work most effectively-how they can be
to gain big ends as well as little ones-above all, how the United Nations c
made to contribute maximally to world peace and human progress . And
concern for these matters is not confined to feeling and wishing ; he also st
them and does what he can to contribute to the success of the United Nat
and other international organizations ."
   Page 57 :
   "* * * The demonstration of the feasibility of international organizatio
nonpolitical fields and the failure of the League of Nations makes even more
the fact that it is in the area of `political' organization where failure seems
consistent. This suggests that the difficulty may be traceable to the dog
unlimited sovereignty-that nothing •Apust he allowed to restrict the com
independence of the state . It suggests also that the dogma of sovereignty h
high emotional content that is self-generated and self-sustained and that so
as the dogma of illimitability obtains, international cooperation of a pol
nature will at best be tenuous ."
   Page 60 :
   "* * * The development of international cooperation as a contributing f
to economic well-being is possible only insofar as it is applied to give dire
to common positive aims and to condition the effects of national economic pol
that would otherwise be serious disruptions of the interdependent w
economy ."
   Page 62 :
                "International Cooperation for Economic Well-Being
   "* * * And we cannot hope to achieve the objective of an increase of well-b
 for all men without planned economic cooperation on a worldwide scale .
 proposition has already been accepted by most of the nations of the world
 is evidenced, in the establishment of new means to effect cooperation . The
 notable of these are the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations
 certain specialized agencies : The International Monetary Fund, the Internat
 Bank for Reconstruction and Development, the Food and Agriculture Orga
 tion, the International Labor Organization, and the International Trade Or
 ization which is now in the process of being formed . The world-minded
   Page 66
   "* * * Educators as well as our youth, if they are to be world-m
considerable obligation in achieving this, particular mark of worl
They will support the present efforts being made toward cooperative
world economic problems . But to do this intelligently they must
concerted effort to understand economic forces and economic complexi
can then assess the role of American economic foreign policy ; t
judge its validity in terms of the contribution it will make to the a
the eventual goal. They can also then lend a more intelligent sup
international efforts now being undertaken ."
  Page 78 :
               "Awareness of Techniques and Channels of Action
   "* * * The American citizen can bring his personal influence dire
on international affairs in ways * * * and he can become an activ
 one or more nongovernmental international organizations ."
   Page 80 :
   "* * * An individual can increase his effectiveness in influenc
policy by associating himself with organizations and by helping t
their attitudes on international questions . The groups most suitab
purpose are the political party and those generally called pressure
    Page 81 :
   "* * * 'The world-minded American, as a part of his program of act
concern himself with how ; these groups operate . He will find that
can probably have a greater influence through this technique . He wi
that since a great deal of official action is determined by pressure g
the use of this device will enable him to be heard and will also e
urge his interest for peace against those he considers to be urgin
interest . He will find that the variety and interest of the groups
he can affiliate are endless ; and he must, therefore, examine careful
of the group or groups to which he will devote his energies ."
   Page 82 :
   "* * * Teachers must act . As citizens, their obligation to act
peace and international cooperation is a responsibility shared wit
citizens . But teachers cannot be content merely to do just as much
they must do more . Teachers in almost any American community h
competence in leadership skills and in knowledge than most of t
citizens. With greater capacity goes greater responsibility for bringi
influence to bear on civic action on the local, State, and National lev
CHAPTER 4 . PLANNING FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF INTERNATIONAL UND
                      THROUGH THE SCHOOL PROGRAM
  Page 83
  " * * * Responsibility of the school : What is the responsibility
schools for comprehensive program planning focused on the goal of in
understanding? The urgency and the magnitude of the world c
now confronts the world's people make it mandatory that every
institution devote maximum efforts toward building the foundation
This means that schools must assume responsibility for helping all
youth, and adults to have experiences which will advance unders
international affairs and which will aid them in recognizing the sign
decisions in which they share, either directly or indirectly . This com
approach is necessary in order that the entire population, young an
have experiences which will aid them to become increasingly effec
minded citizens .
  Page 91 :
  "* * * How cann schools organize, to assume their responsibility?
  "Some of the elements and major tasks of developing a program of educa
for international understanding have been delineated in the preceding pa
The problem of organizing schools, school systems, and school-community r
tions must yet be considered . The principles and procedures suggested in
paragraphs which follow are not peculiar to the field of international und
standing ; they apply to any curriculum area ."
  Pages$92-98. :
  "Faculty Planning .
  "Community participation .
  "Teaching aids and procedures.
  "Student participation .
  "Individual teacher initiative .
  "Administration and supervision ."
  Page 98 :
  "* * * The administrative officials, together with the interschool plan
committee, should develop such guiding principles as the following
  "The school system is committed to the task of educating for internati
understanding, which is recognized as an integral part of the total curric
program . The task takes its place with other imperatives in the school prog
  "Each established part of the school system is involved .
  "An interdepartmental planning committee in each school is desirable for
purpose of releasing and coordinating individual school developments .
  "Each school is encouraged to develop individual 'programs as effectively
rapidly as possible.
  "An interschool planning committee exists for the purpose of intercha
of information and stimulation . Individual school-planning committees
pool ideas through it and thus move toward more effective general school-sy
procedures ."
  Page 1005 :
      "The School in Community Organization for World Understanding
  "The last chapter, VI, is entitled `Aids and Sources,' and has four secti
  "Readings on the 10 marks of the world-minded American .
  "Reading materials especially for pupils .
  "Films and filmstrips .
  "Continuing sources ."
  On page 217, under the first of these sections, it is stated
         "Readings on the 10 Marks of the World-Minded American
   "This section is devoted largely to books and . pamphlets, but a few maga
articles are also listed . Items in this bibliography have been selected with
criteria in mind : Authoritativeness and representativeness . Authors of w
cited are in nearly all cases recognized authorities in their respective spe
fields. Readings listed have been chosen to represent different points of
and different facets of each of the 10 marks . No title is cited more than on
this 10-part bibliography ; for, even though many of the references might
tribute to understanding of 2 or more marks, each is classified under the
to which it can make its most distinctive contribution . All readings in
section are written on the adult level and may, therefore, be expected to
most usefulness to teachers, but many of them may also be used profitabl
secondary-school students .
Frank Fleming, Donald Stone, Quincy Wright, Harry Bard, David Ad
   "In addition, Willard E. Givens, under the title `Education
America' in the proceedings of the 72d annual meeting of the Nati
tional Association, is quoted as follows
   " `This report comes directly from the thinking together of more
members of the department of superintendence * * * .
   "'A dying laissez-faire must be completely destroyed and all of u
the "owners," must be subjected to a large degree of social contr
section of our discussion group, accepting the conclusions of distin
dents, maintain that in our fragile, interdependent society the cred
the basic industries, and utilities cannot be centrally planned and op
private ownership.
   "'Hence they will join in creating a swift nationwide campaign of
tion which will support President Roosevelt in taking these over a
them at full capacity as a unified national system in the interests o
people . * * *'
   "Mr. Givens became executive secretary of NEA in 1935 and rema
post until 1952 according to Who's Who . Briefly he has a `diploma
Theological S?minary, A . M. from Columbia, was a fellow of Educat
tute of Scotland 1947, was a member of the American Youth Commis
American Council on Education, member of Educational Policies Co
American Academy of Political and Social Science, member of Un
 education mission to Japan, 1946, Board of Visitors, Air Universi
 member, combined Armed Forces educational program, 1949-53 ; c
 tional Conference for Mobilization of Education, 1950 ; chairman, s
 States educational mission to Japan, 1950.
    "This organization . began back in 1865 as the National Associati
 Superintendents, and 1870 became one of the four original departm
 NEA . Under the act of incorporation (1906) it was called the de
 superintendence, and in 1921 was reorganized with a full-time exec
 tary at NEA headquarters . In 1937 the department adopted a revis
 tion and bylaws, and its name was changed to the American Associati
 Administrators . According to the NEA Handbook, 1953-54, it has a
 of 8,700" (p. 290) .
    Mr. WORMSER. That is all we have to offer you today,
 man . Mr. Dodd has been on the stand almost 2 hours .
    The CHAIRMAN . There may be some questions .
    Mr . HAYS. I have a whole series of questions . I hope th
 take as long as Senator McCarthy is taking with Mr .
 think I can do it in an hour or less . I think in view of the
 is almost time for the House to go into session we might
 until the morning. I can start .
    The CHAIRMAN . We do have 15 minutes, but that is entire
 convenience of the committee .
    Then if agreeable we will resume Tuesday morning, concl
 Mr. Dodd, and then having the other witnesses, So we will
 schedule the hearing for the Public Works Committee roo
 day, at 10 o'clock . The committee will be adjourned .
     (Thereupon at 11 : 55 a . m., a recess was taken, the c
 reconvene in the Public Works Committee room, on Tuesda
  1954, at 10 a. m .)
                         HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
                     SPECIAL COMMI'rrEE To INVESTIGATE
                                 TAX-EXEMPT FOUNDATIONS,
                                                Washington., D .
  The special-°subcommittee met at 10 a . m ., pursuant to recess
room 429 of the House Office Building, Hon . Carroll Reece (ch
man of the special committee) presiding.
  Present : Representatives Reece (presiding), Hays, Goodwin,
Pfost.
  Also present : Rene A. Wormser, general counsel ; Arnold T . K
associate counsel ; Norman Dodd, research director ; Kathryn Ca
legal analyst ; and John Marshall, Jr., chief clerk of the special c
mittee .
  The CHAIRMAN . The committee will come to order .
  I think Mr. Dodd remained to be questioned .
  Will you take the witness chair, Mr . Dodd?
  Mr. .WORMSER . Before Mr. Dodd starts, may we introduce a c
posite copy of the Cox committee record and their report? I c
tainly hope it does not need to be reprinted, but I think it ough
be part of our record .
  The CHAIRMAN . It is submitted to be a part of the record but
for printing, you mean?
  Mr. WORMSER. Yes .
  The CHAIRMAN. I see no objection to that. Without objection
will be accepted.
   (The documents referred to are on file with the committee .)
TESTIMONY OF NORMAN DODD, RESEARCH DIRECTOR, SPEC
  COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE TAX-EXEMPT FOUNDATIO
  Resumed
   The CHAIRMAN . Congressman Hays had some questions he wan
to ask you .
   Mr. HAYS . The record will show that Mr . Dodd is still under o
is that right?
   The CHAIRMAN . Oh, yes . I am assuming that is the case . T
is the, case, is it not Mr. Wormser?
  Mr. WORMSER . oh, yes.
   Mr. HAYS. Mr. Dodd, I would like to ask you if you prepared
statement that you made to this committee on Monday and Tuesd
May 10 and 11?
   Mr. DODD. Did I prepare it, Mr . Hays
                                                              75
  reasoning as a check against the possibility that a reliance upon only
  might lead to an erroneous set of conclusions .
     Is that true?
     Mr. DODD. That is true, sir.
     Mr. HAYS. In the foreword of the same document, you
 the hope that your research report would be determined by
 mittee, the foundations, and the public to be "constructively
 and I quote the last two words, is that true?
     Mr. DODD . That was my hope ; yes, sir.
     Mr. HAYS. The research report which you presented was
 sonal report based on the work of the research staff under y
 tion, is that true?
    Mr. DODD. Yes, Sir.
    Mr. HAYS. Conclusions of your report are presented the
 represent your personal honest conclusions as to the resu
 research work done under your direction?
    Mr. DODD . In a descriptive sense, yes, Mr . Hays .
    Mr. HAYS. You have not by omission or alteration set f
 conclusions in any way so as to mislead this committee or
 with respect to your findings?
    Mr. DODD . On the contrary, I have done everything th
 do to make it helpful to the committee .
    Mr. HAYS. I have some notes being typed up which I tho
 be here by this time. I have been a little handicapped by
 ing a complete staff, and there are two quotations in those
 I would like to read to you from your report . Perhaps I
 them before the girl gets here .
    While I am waiting for that, looking for that, have you
to get together with the staff on a definition of what yo
 pro-American yet?
    Mr. DODD. I have, sir.
    Mr . HAYS . Could we have that definition at this point?
    Mr. DODD . A working definition for this purpose would
that which fosters and furthers the principles and the fo
United States Government and the constitutional 'means
to change those principles .
   In other words, it would be the reverse of the definition
used as to what was un-American .
   The CHAIRMAN . And the institutions under which we h
pered for some 160 years .
   Mr. DODD. I have confined it entirely to the Government,
ing purposes, Mr . Hays .
   Mr. HAYS. Well, that is merely a working definition, s
have it in there when we talk about this term and we wil
general idea what is meant by it .
fluence, if I understand the word "influence ."
  Mr. HAYS . I might ask a question right there which is brough
my mind . Have you had very much direction from the chairman or
member of this committee in the way your research would go?
mean, have you been told what general lines to follow, or have
just,, more or less, gone on your own?
 "Aft- Doov : I think , it"has been°a°matter 4-eemplete°freedom of
change, and keeping the chairman absolutely informed, Mr . H
  The CHAIRMAN . But has not the chairman, from the very beginn
advised the staff, as he so advised the committee, that his hope was
the study of this committee would be completely objective in an ef
to draw a picture of the whole foundation question for the benefi
the Congress and the people in the years to come?
  Mr. DODD. Mr. Chairman, everybody with whom I have had c
tact in this has taken that exact stand.
  Mr. HAYS . I thought I would have these_ questions typed . But
the meantime I can ask you a couple of others and then we will go
to this original group.
  I have here an editorial from the New York Herald Tribune
Saturday, May 15, and I will quote you a statement . It says
  The assumption seems to be-
referring to these hearings-
  The assumption seems to be that there is a public interest or an Amer
idea or an accepted body of dogma to which the facts must be made to conf
in these hearings.
   Now, do you take that attitude, that there is a definitely outli
public interest, and this is in quotes "or an American idea," or
accepted body of dogma that all things must conform to or else t
are not in the public interest, and un-American?
   Mr. DODD. No, Sir. I felt, Mr . Hays, that there was an accep
body of principles which were traditionally American to which th
facts, as they unfolded, should be related . It is not made to confo
if I understand what you mean correctly .
   Mr. HAYS . You say that you think there is an American body
principles. That is a kind of vague term . I do not exactly k
what you mean by that. Could you define that a little more?
   Mr. DODD. I can define it by describing exactly how we approac
this matter.
   Starting with the obligations set forth in the resolution, it seemed
Ine that the committee was obliged to look over a set of facts agai
a background of those elements which were used as the basis fo
definition, as to what was un-American or subversive .
   Now, 'that working definition referred us to the Constitution an
set of principles . Only to that extent do I believe that there is a
finable basis against which these facts must be looked at .
     49720-54-pt . 1-6
conclusions in any way so as to mislead the committee or
with respect to your findings?
  Mr. DODD. No, Sir.
  Mr. HAYS . Your answer was "No, Sir"?
  Mr. DODD. That is right ; yes, Sir.
  Mr. HAYS . Now, Mr . Dodd, I received several copies of
graphed statement which you distributed publically last w
amazed to find that these include two significantly different
your public testimony . I just got a group of your first day'
and I was going over them, and the thing did not seem to
the same, and I got to comparing it more closely .
   Upon close examination, it appeared to me that one versio
clearly edited and changed from the other.
   Now, under oath, you just said that you had made no om
conclusions which might mislead the committee . I have no
to analyze all of the variations between the 2 editions of t
both of which you say set forth your conclusions of 8 mont
  Mr. DODD . May I ask a question, Mr . Hays?
  Mr. HAYS . Let me finish this .
   But I find, for example, this specific omission which w
to have been made solely for the purpose of deleting a con
your study, which would have been favorable to foundation
   Specifically, on page 10 of the undoctored version, yo
that foundations' grants were not directly responsible for
deterioration in the standards of American scholarships .
words used in the undoctored version, with reference to th
deterioration, were
  Cannot be said to have been due directly to foundation grants .
  On page 9, with reference to the charge of favoritism
doctored version, you conclude that -
We analyzed thoroughly, what was favoritism in the mind of the crit
have been litle more than a reasonable response to circumstances .
   Now, here is the question : Is it true that both of these fav
clusion5 were deleted in the version which you subsequent
this committee on Tuesday, not having, as you said then,
graphed statement ready, and which you presented to the
   Mr. DODD. To the best of my knowledge, as I sit here
both of those conclusions are in the report .
   Mr. HAYS . They are in the report that you gave to the co
Tuesday?
   Mr. DoDD . To the best of my knowledge, yes, sir, as I sit
because they were a definite part of it .
an identical foreword, and that is page ii, it is identical . Then we c
to page 1, part 1, page 1, and they are identical . And page 2 seems
be Identical . Page 3 seems to be identical . Pages 4 and 5 are identi
   But we come over to page 6, and there are several deletions . T
two things do not read the same. And from page 6 on, you can
compare them because what is page 6 on one, on the Cox Commit
criticisms, and that goes on for 3 pages in the undoctored version
all on 1 page inthe doctored version .
   Mr. DODD. I can only answer it this way, Mr . Hays, that those
two of our findings, and were reported by me . Those two findi
are as you have expressed them .
   Mr. HAYS . Well, Mr . Dodd, is it or is it not true that these conc
sions that I have read were cropped out of the document you r
to this committee?
   Mr. DODD. Not to my knowledge, sir .
   Mr. HAYS. They were not?
   Mr. DODD . No.
   Mr. HAYS . Well, we will have to go into thg actual hearings .
the version, which purported to be the version that came to me
 Tuesday is not the same as the one I got by accident when I as
for some extra copies, apparently .
   The CHAIRMAN . Will you yield? I would assume that you
 various working memoranda and data preliminary to reaching
 final draft which you actually presented to the committee . Or
 narily that would be the case . I do not know whether it was in t
 particular instance or not .
   Mr. DODD. There were many working papers, Mr . Chairman,
 of which I distilled this report, sir, and the 2 conclusions to w
 Mr. Hays makes reference are practically engraved in my mem
 because they are two conclusions, that you cannot hold foundati
 responsible directly for this supposed deterioration in scholars
 and the other one is that this charge of favoritism, while it
 understandable how it grew up, does' not appear to me to be .anyt
 more than just what Mr . Hays read, an understandable and log
 response to circumstances . I can understand how the critic
 grew up.
    Mr. HAYS. Well, Mr. Dodd, if you recall last Monday, I was
 much surprised, as was the chairman apparently, and I am sure
 press must have been, to find that there were no mimeographed co
 of your statement . You read, as I recall it, your statement fro
 looseleaf notebook.
    Mr. DODD . I did, sir, and I read it just as you saw me read it,
 my own carbon copy.
spent and concentrated entirely on the content of the repo
mechanics of it, I have not
   Mr. HAYS . I thought there was a little something funn
the other day, about the fact there was no mimeographed
and the thing sort of began to add up in my mind when I f
two different statements . I thought perhaps that it had be
that you would not present ,your statement, but would chan
   Now, was there any editing done 'at any time prio
appearance here?
   Mr. DODD . Yes, sir ; there was editing done .
   Mr. WORMSER . Mr. Hays, may I interrupt?
   Mr. HAYS . I want to ask Mr . Dodd, and then, Mr . Worms
want to go under oath and have me ask you some questio
But I want to get to the bottom of who edited that and
   Mr. DODD . All right, sir .
   Mr. HAYS. That is what I am interested in right now . Ca
me on what day and hour these changes were made, Mr. Do
   Mr. DODD . I don't look upon them as specific changes, Mr
Mr . Wormser and I first went over this report on Thursda
which would have been 1 .0 days ago. I was in the process of
and tightening it up, but that was a normal editing piece of
   Mr. HAYS. That was not done after it was mimeographed
   Mr. DODD. No, sir ..
   Mr. WORMSER. Mr. Hays, may I just suggest that Miss
explain . Mr. Dodd does not know the circumstances . And i
trade, for a moment, Miss Casey for Mr . Dodd, she will e
mechanics of what happened .
   Mr. HAYS . If you can put somebody on the stand who c
this, I will be glad to have him do it .
   The CHAIRMAN . May I interject an amplifying questio
   During the period that you were formulating this stat
making the various changes which led up to the final draf
have any important consultation with anyone other than t
of the committee and the members of the staff involved?
   Mr. DODD . None, Mr . Chairman .
   Mr. HAYS. Before you leave the stand temporarily, Mr
want to make clear what I am trying to get at. I have gone
You say that this purports to be your conclusions, after l
of study . The one version has two very significant statem
that the other does not . And what-I am driving at is : How
months of study can you suddenly throw out these two impo
clusions?
   Mr. DODD . I can readily understand the importance of the
Mr. Hays. This report, if you will recall, at the committe
was my effort to describe for the benefit of the committeee the
sion that foundation grants are not directly responsible for any dete
oration in the standards of American scholarships?
  Mr. DODD. That is my feeling, sir. Yes, Sir .
   Mr. HAYS . And you want in there, also, with reference to the p
ported deterioration, that it cannot be said to have been due direct
to foundation grants?
   Mr. DODD . Yes, Sir.' And the other has to do with this inferred cri
cism of favoritism .
   Mr. HAYS . All right .
   I would like to have whoever can explain these two mimeograp
versions to take the stand, and I would like to ask some questi
about it.
   The Cz3ATIMAN . Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you a
about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
truth?
   Miss CASEY . I do .
TESTIMONY OF KATHRYN CASEY, LEGAL ANALYST, SPECI
    COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE TAX-EXEMPT FOUNDATIONS
  Mr. HAYS . Miss Casey, do you have any knowledge of two differ
mimeographed versions of Mr . Dodd's statement?
  Miss CASEY . Yes, I do, may I explain 	
  Mr. HAYS . Yes. I would like in your own words to have you
us about it .
   Miss CASEY . Well, at the time the hearings were set and it was
cided that Mr . Dodd would present a staff report, it was thought t
we should have mimeographed copies available . When the report
I thought close to its final draft, I will have to confess I jumped
gun and had the stencils cut. We ran	
   Mr. HAYS . Right there, when was that? Can you give us an ex
date of it?
   Miss CASEY . It was only Friday and Saturday, because we
quite a bit of difficulty getting the copies done by the duplicating off
here in the Capitol .
   Mr. HAYS. That was Friday and Saturday, prior to Mr . Dod
appearance on Monday?
   Miss CASEY . That is right . No distribution was made, and not e
to the members of the committee .
   Mr. HAYS . I am aware of that .
   Miss CASEY . One reason Mr. Hays, was, that we were at the off
until midnight Saturday, and I thought perhaps your office might
closed.
   Mr. HAYS . I am sure it was . If it was not, it should have been
to the validity of the criticism leveled against the work done by
mittee, to substantiate or disprove the prevalent charge that fou
guilty of favoritism.
    But, Mr . Hays, if you turn over to pages 9 and 10-the r
 foundation criticism starts at the bottom of page 8 	
    Mr. HAYS. That is 9 and 10 of which version now?
    Miss CASEY. This is the only version that was distribut
   Mr. HAYS . The distributed version?
    Miss CASEY . Yes, sir, and let us call it the final version,
 other was a draft .
   Mr. HAYS . All right .
   Miss CASEY . And for which I will take full responsibility
the duplication is concerned .
   The CHAIRMAN . It was primarily an effort to be hel
members of the committee and the members of the press
   Miss CASEY. That is right.
                                                                r
   Mr. HAYS . Miss Casey, right there, now we have got
pinned down pretty well, and you mimeographed these
and Saturday. And now when were the changes made?
   Miss CASEY. The changes were made when Mr. Worms
Dodd met on Monday . Actually, Mr . Hays, they were no
such as you say . If you will turn to pages 8, 9, and 10, th
which I read before, from page 2, is elaborated in the sa
you found it in the next to final draft . That is on pages 8
Mr. Ha s.
   Mr. HAYS . Do you have any completely assembled version
one I have, of the original, before it was cut?
   Miss CASEY. No, sir, everything, including the stencil
stroyed, and every copy of that was taken to the incinerat
there would be no possibility
   Mr. HAYS . Every copy was not, because I have one .
   The CHAIRMAN. Every copy so far as you knew?
   Miss CASEY. It was my understanding that every copy had
to the incinerator-taken there personally by a staff memb
   Mr. HAYS . Now, I think we could argue indefinitely ab
changes have been made, but in order to get the record stra
you have any objection, Mr . Reece and Mr . Goodwin, to m
undistributed version a part of the record, just so we can
two?
   The CHAIRMAN . My own feeling is that the director of r
submitted his statement should be advised on that, as w
general counsel.
   As I analyze this thing, this situation, Mr . Dodd is the
resarch and he had an initial and primary responsibility fo
made, as Miss Casey states, in some instances something was taken o
and it is amplified in another part of the report .
  It seems to me like a prefectly logical way to develop a statem
for a committee, that is, for the members of the staff to consult am
themselves . They have stated, even under the affirmation of an oa
that they did not consult with anybody, any outside interests, as
what this preliminary presentation to the committee might obtain
  So far as I am personally concerned, I have no objection for the
work notes and preliminary drafts to go into the record . But I do
feel that it is the logical way to proceed with a presentation .
  That is my reaction to it .
  Mr. GoonwiN. Mr. Chairman, I regret that I • had to come in l
As a matter of fact, I would have been here when the gavel fell,
you know, except for the fact that I felt I ought to be up in the Ar
Services Committee to help save for the Commonwealth of Mass
chusetts a facility which we believe is very important to us .
   So I am a little lost to know what is going on here . Apparent
the question is whether or not there should be put into the rec
preliminary drafts of a certain statement, is that it?
   The CHAIRMAN . Yes, Sir.
   Mr. GoonwiN. Do I understand that it is a fact that the prelimin
drafts show some change of heart, or change of mind on somebod
part?
   Mr. HAYS . I would say not that-
   Mr. GOODWIN. I should not press that question .
   Mr. HAYS. Go ahead and press it .
   Mr. GooDwIN . It is in my mind that if this is something sim
cumulative, and if what my distinguished friend from Ohio now wa
to put into the record is something cumulative and will be of no va
to us in the future, I should think that it should be kept out .
   If, however, it states a frame of mind on somebody's part who
going to have a portion of the responsibility of directing this inves
gation, it seems to me that it might be well that we should have it
   The CHAIRMAN . Would you permit Miss Casey
   Miss CASEY . Mr. Goodwin, may I say this : That your first sta
ment about it being cumulative is more accurate than any change
heart .
   Actually, it is merely a rearrangement that was agreed on, and
particular statement on page 2 is not elaborated . Mr. Dodd's rep
said to "substantiate the prevalent charge that foundations were gui
of favoritism in the making of educational grants," and then t
is elaborated in the same manner that it was in all of the drafts
pages 8, 9, and 10. Mr . Dodd's statement contains the same langu
that Mr. Hays read, "we analyzed thoroughly," that is a very r
sonable thing to have happened, "the way in which the grants w
 8 months . What I am trying to find out is who caused
 indigestion over Sunday, here . I will read you some mo
 that were made in this, if you would like me to, and in fac
question about them.
    The CHAIRMAN . I don't remember the chairman's exact
 he did not intend to say that this was a digest of the f
 would not want to say that it was a digest of findings .
    Mr. HAYS . I don't want to quibble about your words,
some notes about them, and if I am wrong, the record will s
   The CHAIRMAN. I would like to ask Mr. Wormser wheth
there is any objection to the part that is in the working
 put in the record along with the presentation which Mr .
to the committee.
   Mr. WORMSER . Before I answer that, may I respectful
Mr. Hays' to excise his word "doctored," and I think that
 evidence at all that anything was doctored, Mr. Hays .
rather unpleasant significance .
   The CHAIRMAN . That is the purpose of my
   Mr. HAYS . Mr. Chairman, I am not going to delete m
from my statement, and I used the word "doctored"- and
to stand on it until someone shows me it wasn't doctored,
going to right now read you another sentence, and I wi
word "changed," if that makes you feel better, Mr . Worm
   The CHAIRMAN . Will you permit an interjection there
I stated earlier, the staff developed a presentation for th
During the course of that they consulted no one except t
of the staff, and the members of the committee, insofar a
consult the members of the committee . No outside perso
sulted. In the process of developing the statement, they h
working data and they had preliminary drafts, and, as is
consequence, they ultimately had a preliminary final dr
might very well have become the final draft . After addit
sultations among themselves, Mr . Dodd, Mr . Wormser, an
Mr . McNiece, and Miss Casey, made some consolidations
ing it up, and may have taken some things out. But wha
done was their own work . The chairman can't see an
grounds for any inferences except that the staff in good
to develop the most perfect and complete presentation for
of the committee.
   I, as one, want to commend the members of the staff in t
try and effort in developing and putting out their fullest
develop the-best statement possible forpresentation to the
   That, now, is the chairman's analysis of the way this w
and I don't see any possible grounds for any adverse infere
drawn from that method of procedure, which is a normal on
drafting of the first one and drafting the second one, but the act
wording of the instrument, or the document, which he wanted to
sent to the document and read at hearings was in some resp
changed and rearranged and what not . I think that he has pers
responsibility for issuing this report, and he is entitled to rest on
final report which he gave, and not be confused or made respons
for a draft of any kind . The draft has not been made public, an
effort was made to distribute what we call the preliminary re
in any way, and it was not made public as far as the committee
concerned, as far as the staff was concerned . It was not distrib
to anyone .
   Mr. HAYS . Let me say, Mr . Wormser, that I am not trying to
fuse Mr . Dodd . God forbid . According to some of the newsp
editorials, some of the responsible newspapers think he is . conf
enough as it is, and I am just trying to straighten him out a little
I want to say, though, that whether you agreed to introduce it or
                                                          I
is immaterial to me. Apparently I have the only living copy of
so-called preliminary final draft, and I still say that want to
to the bottom of why this was done after 10 months, Mr . Worm
after 10 months of study, and so on .
   I am sure that you have known for a long time that these hear
were going to start last Monday, and as a matter of fact they
been postponed 2 or 3 times, and it seems to me a little bit qu
tb say the least, that after this draft was mimeographed on Satur
that it was gone over and completely edited on Monday morning,
the committee itself didn't even have a copy of it, and only by a
dent I got a hold of a copy when I phoned down to one of the s
the other day, and I can't even remember the gentleman's name . I
sent up a couple of copies, and only probably by accident I discov
the changes in them . But to me, after 10 months of study, the
that these significant changes were made either Sunday night o
breakfast Monday morning or sometime, deserves a little bit of c
ment. If this 10 months of study hasn't firmed anything up at all
why, then, let us develop the testimony here in hearings and t
Mr. Dodd's statement clear out and start afresh . I think that
would be an invigorating way of doing it.
   Mr. GoonwrN . Mr . Chairman, I always like to be on even t
with my associates on the committee, and might I inquire whe
there would be any facilities for all members of the commissio
have made available to them whatever there is by way of work
sheets, and I don't know what it is that my distinguished friend
Ohio has before him . Whatever is available to me, should it no
made available to other members of the committee?
   Mr. HAYS. It seems that I have the say about that, and since I
the only copy, I will promise right now I am not going to yield i
not asked to give copies of all of the drafts, because that w
a considerable amount of work
  Mr. GOODWIN. I am sure Miss Casey will know I was
facetious. I don't like to feel that I am at a disadvantage
is my associate here with a lot of material before him, wh
ently he finds most interesting, and I haven't anything .
  Miss CASEY. The chairman and the staff are at . the sam
tage, because we don't have copies of the document that
has now, except perhaps in a penciled draft that is cross
whatnot from which we would have to make another copy
that, if we were asked to do it . I don't say it is impossi
might vary from comma to comma unless we had access to
it against his copy .
  Mr. HAYS . I will be glad for you to do that .
  Miss CASEY . If it is decided that we cut the stencils, M
will take advantage of it . To answer Mr. Goodwin, after
conversations between Mr. Dodd, and Mr. Wormser, and
and myself, the last copy of Mr. Dodd's report seemed t
approaching a point where it was possible to mimeograph
the stencils cut, and I had the stencils run with two things
  The hearings started at 10 o'clock on Monday, and Sat
half a day, as far as the duplicating room at the Capito
cerned. We had them run, I have forgotten the exact
copies, but there were enough for copies to be available to
and available for each member of the committee .
   On Monday morning, it developed that-well, a rear
and not a deletion, Mr. Goodwin, was made in Mr. Dodd
The entire material that is in the unpublished draft ve
Mr. Hays has, is in this one, but it is in a slightly differen
It may not be expressed at as great length, but everything
  Now, I am responsible for having the stencils cut, and
stencils run and finally having those stencils destroyed, an
all of the copies were taken to the incinerator .
  Mr. GOODWIN. Could I ask Miss Casey one question, w
not when she started work on whatever was necessary to be d
it was actually distributed, whether or not the material pla
hands then appeared to be a finished product, and ready t
with?
   Miss CASEY. Yes, I knew in a sense there might be
there is always a possibility that changes, might be made
but considering the length of this, Mr . Goodwin, and I thi
some 36 pages, the sheer mechanics of it somewhat overw
between Saturday morning and Monday . It may have bee
in judgment on my part to have had the stencils cut and r
    Mr. HAYS. Well, Mr . Goodwin, this is a little bit serious . I th
because some of the changes in language, in here, would indicate t
the staff was prepared after 10 months of study to damn these foun
tions pretty severely, and then apparently somebody came along
said, ,"Look, I don't think we can get away with quite this, we
better tone this thing down a little bit, because if we go out at it
badly we may just get run clear out of the Capitol . We had bet
move into this thing a little more radually ."
    So, instead of saying in some paces, for instance, here it says, th
penciled notes are mine, but in one place it said, "Our studies in
cated conclusively that the responsibility for the economic welfare
the American people head been transferred completely to the execu
branch."
    Well, in the new version, they took out the word "completely"
said `heavily" and you see they didn't want to go whole hog on t
particular one.
    The CHAIRMAN. There is nothing unusual in changing phraseol
and words.
    Mr . HAYS . Now, Mr . Chairman, may I finish? There is someth
unusual in this whole procedure . It was unusual Monday, and I
amazed-and maybe this isn't true ; Miss Casey is still here, and
can tell us to read in the papers that when the press came up to
at the final'complete version, or we have used so many terms here,
is the preliminary final version, but then the final version-wh
was in looseleaf typewritten pages, that Miss Casey grabbed it
refused to let them look at it .
    Miss CASEY . Let me clear that up In the first place that was
the final draft . Those were Mr. Dodd's notes, and . he had a g
many penciled notations for his own guidance . I did not feel, an
don't feel now, nor I feel sure would you that the press could j
take that and say, "Well, Mr . Dodd said this," because it happe
to be a notation . That could be misconstrued, and I felt in justice
the committee it should not be done .
    Mr . HAYS . That is an explanation, and I just wondered about
but of course the whole crux of the matter goes back to the fact t
you did have a version ready and then that version was chan
Monday morning rather significantly, and then you didn't have
ready .
    Miss CASEY. I would give you the same protection if you w
going to make a speech on the floor of the House and had some p
ciled notations on what you were going to read which might even
in a sort of, in hybrid shorthand, which could easily be misconstr
I would feel you should be protected against someone misconstru
it.
 unanimous consent that he didn't say, but it looks like he sa
 record. You see, we are protected, you don't need to worr
   The CHAIRMAN. Anything I didn't say in the record was
 time and not disposition. Are there any other questions?
   Mr. HAYS . I have some more questions .
   Mr. WORMSER. May I correct the record in one respect?
 been talking about 10 months of preparation and it has bee
 and not 10, and may I recall also that this report was dra
haste . I am not trying to detract from its character, bu
mittee meeting, and I don't know whether you were the
Mr. Goodwin, it was agreed that Mr . Dodd would prep
report for the express purpose not only of informing the
but of giving the foundations notice of what our main li
quiry would be. It was done in great haste, and we had o
or something slightly over a week, to produce the thing and
I could not see it nor could Mr . Koch until it had been fina
   Mr. HAYS. You don't need to apologize, Mr . Wormser.
me a month ago that Mr . Dodd was going to be your first
least a month ago . As a matter of fact these hearings we
originally for sometime way back in April, and even t
he was going to be the first witness . Let us not quibble a
or so .
   Mr. WORMSER . It was not intended then, Mr. Hays, th
file a report. Now, this report had to be finished in app
a week.
   Mr. HAYS . I have some more questions I want to ask Mr
   The CHAIRMAN . Mr. Dodd, did you want to make a state
   Mr. DODD. May I make a comment on something Mr .
few minutes ago? Mr . Hays mentioned that the atmosph
this whole thing is as though the staff had set out t
foundations.
   Mr. HAYS . Now, just a minute, don't put words in my
think what I said was that it would appear from this orig
do we call it, the final preliminary draft, I can't rem
term
   Mr. GOODWIN . How about the unexpurgated?
   Mr. HAYS . That is a good word.
   Mr. DODD. May I ask that that be read .
   Mr. HAYS . I would say that this report would seem to in
and then it was changed and they decided not to go quite
That is what I meant .
   Mr. DODD, I don't think that that is exactly what you hav
   Mr . HAYS . The record will show .
  The CHAIRMAN. Certainly, so far as the chairman has had anyth
to say, with you or the other members of the staff, he has certai
indicated that he wanted that course to be followed . And, as cha
man, I want to say that I have not observed any other disposition
the part of Mr . Dodd, or Mr . Wormser, or Mr . Koch, or Miss Cas
Mr . McNiece, or any other member of the staff to do otherwise .
  Do you have some further questions?
  Mr . HAYS . I sure do .
  Miss CASEY. Could I make one statement further, and that is
Hays asked this of Mr . Dodd and he might want to ask it of me .
one has ever attempted to influence my opinions, or the way in wh
I brought out the facts on any of the foundations that I worked
and no one attempted to gear my thinking in any respect at all .
  The CHAIRMAN . However, it is not at all illogical to me to le
that members of the staff, especially as important members of the st
as we have here, might have different views, at least in a tentative w
that would ultimately need to be harmonized and brought togeth
among themselves . There is nothing unusual about that that I
see at all, if such should happen to be the case . I cannot imagine t
group of men and women starting out with exactly the same vie
expressed in the same language .
TESTIMONY OF NORMAN DODD, RESEARCH DIRECTOR, SPECI
  COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE TAX-EXEMPT FOUNDATION
  Resumed
   Mr. HAYS . Do you consider the New York Times to be a rather f
and impartial newspaper?
  Mr. DODD. May I answer that to give my opinion or judgment?
   Mr. HAYS . I want your opinion, and I have my opinion, and
Reece has his.
   Do you consider that to be a fair and impartial newspaper?
  Mr . DoDD. My own opinion of it, Mr . Hays, is no.
   Mr . HAYS . In the light of the editorial they wrote, I suppose t
you wouldn't be consistent if you didn't say that .
   Mr. DODD. Mr. Hays, may I remark that I have not read the e
torial?
   Mr. HAYS . Let me read a sentence of it to you, and see if you th
so, and may I say that I have gotten several dozen letters which d
the same conclusions from your statement : The New York Ti
on May 13 says
  What is alarming about Mr . Dodd's opening statement is that it indic
a belief that intellectual advancement, if any, must conform to a rigid patter
those set in the 18th century.
in November, at Bethesda Naval Hospital?
   Mr. DODD . Very definitely, Mr. Hays.
   Mr. HAYS . Now, perhaps fortunately for both of us, I wi
right now, there is no transcript of that conversation avai
we will have to rely upon our memories . But do you re
me generally that you believed there had been some sort o
be using the wrong word when I say plot or arrangement
of these foundations to change the whole concept of the soci
   Mr. DODD. I remember talking to you about that, that th
the facts would ultimately disclose, but it is not between
tions .
   Mr. HAYS . But you told me back in November that that
facts
   Mr. DODD . That is what the story would unfold, probabl
   Mr. HAYS . That there is some kind of a big plot?
   Mr. DODD . Not a plot .
   Mr . HAYS . What do you want to call it? Let us get a t
there .
   Mr. DODD . It is a happening.
   Mr HAYS . Well, now, there is a good deal of difference
isn't there between a happening, and something that is br
deliberately?
   Mr. DODD. Very definitely, sir and I am one of those w
advocates and takes the stand that this has not been br
deliberately by the foundations.
   Mr. HAYS . It is just sort of an accidental thing?
   Mr. DODD. I don't know as you could call it accidental
velopment. But I do not feel that it has been brought abo
ately by foundations .
   Mr. HAYS . Do you think it is bad?
   Mr. DODD . I have attempted to be objective, and I don't
in terms of bad or good, and I think it is something we
about .
   Mr. HAYS. Well, I don't think that there are any of
 wouldn't know that the concept of the social sciences has
 in my generation.
   Mr . DODD . Yes ; but I don't think it is a question of w
good or bad ; I think we should know that it changed .
   Mr. HAYS . Well, we don't need a $115,000 investigat
 that, and you can find that out . Most anybody on the stree
 you that ; is that right?
   Mr. DODD. But this is in relation, as I understand it, to
 which asks 5 Members of Congress to make 5 determinati
    Mr . HAYS . The way we are going, we may wind up wi
 terminations ; I don't know.
want to say this, for the benefit of counsel, and Mr . Dodd : I like
Dodd as, an individual . He and I don't see eye to eye on a great ma
shall we say, concepts about social sciences, but I believe Mr . Dodd
sincere in what he thinks he believes, as I am, and perhaps in
process that he will educate me or I will educate him- I don't kn
But l want to make that perfectly clear . In any questions that I
ask you, Mr. Dodd, they are not . asked in ;,, spirit of ,a_nimosity at
and I am trying to get some answers that .we can hang something o
here before we go any further.
  Mr. DoDD. I feel that that is the spirit in which they are being ask
Mr. Hays .
   Mr. HAYS . But the only reason I ask you about that conversati
and,' of course, you recall, it lasted for some little time, and we tal
about many things, but I was disturbed then as I am still disturbed
the light of what has transpired so far-that the impression at least
getting abroad that we think that this committee may come to t
conclusion that . change is bad, per se .. Now, if we are going to acc
the premise here that there has been a lot of change, and we will br
the, facts out as they are, and then let the public decide whether it
god or bad, that is one thing, but if this committee is going to c
to the conclusion or try to arrive at a conclusion about what is good
bad in education, I think that perhaps we are a little bit out of
field, and we have strayed pretty far .
   Mr. GooDwiN . Will you yield there?
   Mr. Dodd, with reference to something in between Mr . Hays' p
and your
   Mr . HAYS. Don't call it my plot .
   Mr. GooDwiN . Mr. Hays' reference to a plot, and your designatio
a happening, would it help any if the suggestion were made that wh
you had in mind was a trend or a tendency?
   Mr. DODD. It is a very noticeable trend, Mr . Goodwin, and it invol
the coordinated activity of a variety of seemingly separate institutio
What to call it, and what name to give it, I don't know . I think
will just have to wait until the facts appear, and allow the commit
to characterize it for itself .
   But I have been guided all along here by the fact that noth
that this staff did, or nothing that the staff plus counsel attempte
do should be other than that which would make it helpful or help
committee to discharge its obligations under that resolution .
guiding factor behind that was an assembly of the facts as they f
   Now, Mr. Hays is making reference to the fact that I had idea
this subject, seemingly, prior to my assumption of my duties . I
very, hard to have been a student of these changes and these tre
for .25 years and not to have some knowledge of it . It was out of
knowledge that I was able to give Mr . Hays assurance the day we f
American type .
  Now, I am going to read you a short sentence, and ask
ever heard this before
  The significance of this was bound to be missed unless the det
foundations to break with tradition had been previously identified .
   Mr. DODD. Yes, sir, that is in the first draft .
   Mr. HAYS . But not in the second draft?
   Mr. DODD. That is right, Sir .
   Mr . HAYS . Why was that taken out?
   Mr. DODD. Well, it was deemed by counsel to be too concl
   Mr. HAYS . That is a good anwser .
  Mr. GOODWIN . It seems also to have been a very good de
   Mr. HAYS . What do you mean, "It is a good determin
that the determination of foundations to break with tradi
determination to take this out?
  Mr. GOODWIN . I think the substance as appeared in the
is certainly nearer to what I think ought to be a stateme
from this staff than what appeared or what you say appea
other draft that you have there .
   Mr. HAYS. Let me say this
   Mr. GOODWIN . It was the result of some careful thinki
body's part .
  Mr. HAYS. If that is true, then I am very happy, but I
ing if it was a result of the fact that they have arrived a
clusion, but didn't want the public to know it just yet .
  The CHAIRMAN . The discussion, as I recall, which the
the staff had with the members of the committee as a who
as the chairman individually, indicated very clearly that th
stating conclusions, and I am sure and I can very well und
a preliminary draft some might use a word that after ref
after another member of the staff who had not been quite
associated with the writing itself, would readily recognize
too conclusive or too strong a language, which would resu
conference in a modification of language .
  That is the way good results are arrived at . And again I
that I want to say that I feel the staff went about this in a
factory way to get the kind of presentation which the com
interested in having .
  Mr. GOODWIN . I am sure, Mr. Chairman, the gentleman
will expect me to be a little jealous of the Cox committee
happened to be a member of that committee .
  Mr. HAYS . Let me say to you, Mr . Goodwin, right
get the record straight, that I think the Cox committee
and adequate job, and I think that the Congressional Record
  Mr. HAYS. I hope the investigation that we are conducting will h
as salutory and final effects as the Cox committee did .
  The CHAIRMAN . You may proceed.
  Mr. HAYS . Mr. Dodd, in the original speech on the floor last ye
which is now part of the record of this committee, there were quit
number of pages devoted to the Ford Foundation . There is
whole series of statements under a subtitle called, "Subversive
Pro-Communist, and Pro-Socialist Propaganda Activities of the F
Foundation ." Have you found any evidence of such activity?
  Mr. DODD . That will come forward, Mr . Hays, if I may say so,
that will be brought out in the formal testimony here in the, heari
which is about to consume one or more hearings in its . own right
would not like to anticipate that at this time.
  The CHAIRMAN . I hope, Mr. Hays, that you won't hold Mr . D
resj)qnsible for my speech .
  Mr. HAYS. Oh, no, as a matter of fact, after discussing it, I wo
even hold you responsible.
   Mr. DODD. May I mention, Mr. Hays, that the strict definition
we have been guided by as far as the word "subversive" is concerned
quite different than that used in the excerpt that you have mention
   The CnA-m N . What is your definition, or . would you mind
stating your definition?
   Mr. DODD . We used the one, Mr. Chairman, that Brookings arri
at after having been requested to study this subject . I believe it
for the House Un-American Activities Committee . That was : .T
which was action designed to alter either the principles or the form'
the United States Government by other than constitutional mean
was subversive .
  Mr. HAYS. In other words, then, we wouldn't call social secur
and bank insurance subversive under that definition would we?
  Mr. DODD . I wouldn't think so.
  Mr. HAYS . I wouldn't think so either.
  Mr. Dodd, doo you know anybody, and I am sorry, I don't at
moment have the notes I made on it, and have the man's first na
but I think you will recognize a man by the name of Conrad fr
Chicago?
  Mr. ODD. Yes, I do, sir. -
  Mr. HAYS . What is his first name?
  Mr. DODD. Arthur .
  Mr. HAYS. That is right ; I thought it was Arthur. Has he b
in touch with the staff at all during your preliminary work?
  Mr. DODD. He was at the first day's hearings, and I met him, I o
met him once during the time that I have been here .
  Mr. HAYS. He hasn't offered any advice or information to the sta
has he?
     49720-54-pt. 1-7
  The CHAIRMAN . Who is the other witness?
  Mr. WoRMSER . Professor Briggs, will you take the stan
  The CHAIRMAN . Mr. Briggs, will you be sworn. Do yo
swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
  Dr. BRIGGS . I do.
TESTIMONY OF DR . THOMAS HENRY BRIGS, MEREDI
  Mr. WORMSER. Will you state your name and address for t
  Dr. BRIGGS . My name is Thomas H . Briggs, and my lega
is Meredith, N. H .
  Mr. WORMSER . Professor Briggs, to save you the effort,
tify you by reading part of your record, and if I make a mist
correct me. You have the degrees of doctor of literature,
of philosophy, and on January of this year, received th
degree of doctor of human letters from Columbia Univers
have been a teacher in various secondary schools, and later
Illinois State Normal School where you were professor o
Before that you were professor at Stetson University . Y
professor at Teachers College at Columbia from 19 .12 or a
were on the faculty from 1912 and you became a professo
education in 1920, and held that position until 1942. You
emeritus since 1942, is that correct?
  Dr. BRIGGS . That is correct.
  Mr. WORMSER. You have been on quite a multitude of co
I notice, consumer education study, of the National Asso
Secondary School Principals, and you were a director, I b
that organization for many years . You were on the comm
the reorganization of secondary education, the commission
ing science and industrial subjects in war emergency, the sy
mittee on junior high schools in the State of New York, on
ing committee of the National Education Association, on th
Committee on Research in Secondary Education, on the Tea
lege Faculty Committee, and on the committee on orientati
ondary education of the NEA, and on the World Congress
tion for Democracy at Teachers College, and you were ch
that group, and on faculty advisory committee to the dean a
College, and you were chairman of that group ..
   You are the author of numerous books, Formal Grammar
cipline, and the Junior High School, Curriculum Problems,
Investment, Secondary Education, Improving Instruction
tism and Pedagogy, The Meaning of Democracy, and you
tributed to numerous publications .
  Dr. BRIGGS . Yes.
   Mr. HAYS . Air. Wormserj want to be very patient about this,  .
in case I haven't I, would like to make it, very, clear that when you
bringing in witnesses to set up your case-and I assume they wo
be called committee witnesses, since they have been secured by the st ,
and • you have . invitedd them here-it seems only .fair that you sh o
Let the statements ready so that the, committee can have a copy
follow along, as the witness reads it in case, we would like to mak
note. Now, it is going to be pretty difficult to try to write down w
he says and then write down your question, if you have one, aft
ward, it is just not in line with committee procedure around he
   Mr.. WORMSER . Well, of course, the statement would be-,---7-,
   Mr. HAYS . You have a copy but we, don't, I don't want' to t
unfair advantage of Mr. Goodwin here, and I have already. don
once today .
   The CH41RMAN, . It will be-here for reference .
   Mr. GOODWIN . We can take care of that .
  :Mr. WQRMSER . I would like too say, Mr . Chairman, that Profes
Briggs' testimony is somewhat out of order in this sense, that 14 wo
have referred to call, him -later, butt he is retired and he :iQ leav              1


for New .Hampshire in a few days, and I took the liberty theref
of calling him today.
                -


   The CHAIRMAN . - We will receive his testimony .
   Mr. HAYS. Suppose we, let him read it in, and then defer-qu
                          ,


tioning until we get a copy of .the hearings tomorrow so we can h
ach ance to look . it over and see what he said .
    ,       .



   Dr. BRIoes. It is my . fault. I didn't finish: this -until Sunday.
   Mr. Hats: I don't think it is your fault, sir, and I think the c
mittee should have forewarned you and helped you have the . co
ready .
  Mr . WORMSER. We couldn't; Mr . Hays, if-you will pardon me,
        .


cause I didn't want to bring. Professor Briggs down from New, Ham
shire and he is leaving on tthe     '.
  The CHAIRMAN . The chairman might state, when it -is feasible
convenient, we will ask,Mr. Wormser to -have the statements ava
able in advance -to the members of the committee, or at least dur
the hearings, but insome cases it .is not-and I am sure when it
feasible .and convenient that he will do so . It has been -my
perience in the past on committees that it was not unusual for
witness- ot to have statements available, for- members, of the-comm
            n



tee, although I will agree with you, it is a convenience to .have
statements .          I       .
                                  I
                                      .
                                          I   I   1   .   .   I   I
                                                                      I : .,
                                                                               .           1




   Mr. HAYS . It has been customary - in the -committees I . have b
                                                                                       !




on.
  The CTIAIRMAN . You may : proceed .
and every foundation, whether its resources are large o
only does not harm but also contributes to a maximum degr
to the welfare of the Nation . This right and this respons
derived from the fact that the public has chartered the
and also that by remission of taxes it is furnishing a large
available revenue . In the case of the Ford Foundation
an annual income in excess of $30 million, the p public contr
than $27 million, or $9 to every $1 that comes from the orig
   In addition to the right and the responsibility of the publ
that foundation moneys are spent for the maximum good of
general, the public is concerned that no chartered foundat
a program which in any way and to any extent militates a
society has decided is for its own good. To ascertain if
have either intentionally or because of poor judgment c
to the weakening of the public welfare this committee, as I
it, was authorized by the Congress .
   I should like to insist at this point that the committe
equally concerned to consider whether or not any fou
spending its income wastefully or on projects that promise
only a favored section of the country or to arbitrari
individuals .
  Two principles that should govern all foundation appr
are, first, that each supported project should promise to
only in good but also in the maximum possible good ; a
that each supported project should promise to benefit, either
indirectly, the Nation as a whole . Since, as already noted,
of the income of every foundation is contributed by the gen
through the remission of taxes, these principles are incont
  My competence to testify before this committee is based
my knowledge of the Fund for the Advancement of Edu
subsidary of the Ford Foundation. This fund was esta
recommendation of a committee of which the late Commi
Education of the State of New York, Francis T . Spaulding,
man. Announcement of the establishment of the fund w
with enthusiastic approbation by the entire educational p
the members of which saw in it great potentialities for the
of public schools . The expectations of the profession wer
the announcement of the membership of the board of direc
one a citizen of the highest reputation for integrity
judgment .
  But unfortunately these hopes have been in large meas
pointed by the selection of the administrators and the st
fund and by much of the program that they have develop
single member of the staff, from the president down to th
committee I testify that at no time did the administration of the f
seek from it any advice on principles of operation nor did it hospita
receive or act in accordance with such advice as was volunteered .
   Of course, one can always secure acceptable advice by the selecti
of advisers, and equally, of course, advice, however wise, can be igno
or interpreted as favoring a policy already determined upon .
   There are educators who holding to a philosophy to that general
accepted will give advice that is wanted, and unfortunately there
individuals who can be prevailed on by expectation of grants of mo
to cooperate, in promoting projects that have no general professio
approval .
   Because of the failure of the fund to clarify the functions of
so-called advisory committee, an able body that was given far m
credit by the administration than it was allowed to earn, or to
it in any effective way, in March of this year I submitted my resig
tion in a letter that was later published in School and Society .
   Although this journal has only a modest circulation, the number
commendations that I have received, both orally and in letters f
all parts of the country, have been surprising and gratifying . It
be asserted that I am disgruntled because policies and projects wh
I favored were not approved by the fund .: Whether or not I am d
gruntled is not important. What is important for the committe
and, for that matter, for the public at large-to consider is the valid
of the criticism that is leveled against the fund as administered .
   Especially disturbing in a large number of the responses to my let
of resignation was the fear, often expressed and always implied,
making criticisms of the fund lest they prejudice the chances of
institution represented by the critic or of some project favored by
of getting financial aid from the fund at some future time .
   It is tragic in a high degree that men who have won confidence
position in the educational world should be intimidated from expre
ing criticism of a foundation whose administrators and policies t
do not respect.
   I am not inclined to criticize severely the board of directors of
fund, for they are busy with their own affairs and naturally are
clined to put trust in their elected administrative officers, all of w
were directly or indirectly nominated by a formerly influential offi
of the Ford Foundation who is notoriously critical-I may even
contemptuous-of the professional education of teachers .
   These administrative officers doubtless present to the board, as
do to the public, a program so general as to get approval and yet
indefinite as to permit activities which in the judgment of most com
tent critics are either wasteful or harmful to the education prog
that has been approved by the public .
humility and respect for the judgment of others .'
   Presidents Jessup and Keppel and Dr . Abraham Flexne
honest enough to say that the great foundations which t
sented made mistakes . But the officers of the fund unde
have as yet admitted no such frailty . Whenever foundatio
subordinate, as well as chief, confuse position with abilit
with wisdom, losing the humility that would keep ear
hospitably open to what others think, the welfare of the gen
is endangered.
   It can hardly be wondered at that the officers of a founda
ily tend, as, Dr. Keppel once said, toward "an illusion of om
omnipotence." ' Even a chauffeur feels that the' powerfu
the car that he is hired to drive increases his importance, is
his own personal power .
   The fund officers have either made grants to any of the p
organizations of teachers or of school administrators, nor
sought their counsel . But it is obvious, or it should be ob
uo proposed program that affects education, however heavi
by a foundation, can be successful unless it is understood a
by those who will be called on to interpret and to administ
officers of the fund may feel themselves superior in wisdo
sight to teachers and administrators, but the fact remains
people are employed by the public and have been entruste
responsibility for . carrying on an approved program of ed
young people of the Nation.
   All thinking about education should start with an und
that it is not primarily a benevolence but, rather, a long-t
ment by the public to make each community a better plac
to live and .a better place in which to make a living . Like s
in any other enterprise, the public has a right to determ
wishes the product to be . The principle that the public sh
what it wants in order to promote its own welfare and ha
unquestionably sound . An assumption that the public doe
what is for its' own `good is 'simply contrary to the fundam
ciples of democracy.
   Having decided what it wants its schools to produce,
leaves, or should leave, to management the selection of em
decisions about materials and methods to be used . No m
stockholder of General Motors, General Electric, or Gen
does it have a right to go to employees and tell them how
job.
  This the officers of the Fund for the Advancement of
are assuming to do . But the public does have a right and
tion, which it seldom fully satisfies, to require an audited re
success of the management that it employs. If the pro
rials not directed by responsible management is an impudence not
be tolerated. Though cloaked with declared benevolence, it cann
hide the arrogance underneath .
  This argument with its conclusions is easily seen to be sound wh
applied to military or industrial organization and a dmi nistration.
ought to be easily apparent as well when applied to public educati
  It would be manifestly absurd to assert that all of the activities
any foundation have been bad in intent or in effect. As a matter
fact, the activities of all but a minority of the foundations of whic
know anything have been both benevolent and beneficial to the pub
               i
at large. It's only when a foundation uses its resources, which
large part you and I made available through waiving their payme
of income taxes, to propagandize for something that the public d
not recognize as for its best interest, that there is reason for conce
alarm, and perhaps control.
  It is admitted that in this country an individual is free to argue
or to spend his own money to .popularize any theory or any propo
change that he approves, so long as it does not violate the laws' of
land. But that is very different from authorizing or condoning
use of our money to promote what we do not approve.
   I should like to say at this point that if a fraction of the money a
effort that has been spent recently to detect and to eradicate the
vocacy of communism had been spent to inculcate in youth an und
standing of the American way of life there would now be no dang
from communism or from any other alien philosophy .
   It would be a great contribution to the promotion of the welfare
our Nation if agencies of the public were to devote themselves t
constructive campaign to educate our young people to enthusiast
devotion to what we know is the best way of life possible in th
modern world . Cultivation of a good crop is far more sensible a
economical in terms of ultimate results than neglect of cultivation
the puropse of eradicating a few weeds .
   Representing, as I think I do, the sentiment of the vast majority
educators of the country, I am deeply concerned that a major apart
the program of the Fund for the' Advancement of Education° depr
cates the professional education of teachers and of school administ
tors .
   It apparently is assuming that a good general education is'suffici
to insure effective professional work. Such a belief 'underlay a p
gram which proved unsatisfactory not only in England, Germa
France, and other civilized countries, but also during earlier days
the United States.
   Consequently, realizing the . necessity of professional education;
have developed during the past two generations a program whic
approved by legislation and by financial support, has resulted i
who have a broader background and more cultural educati
pay enough to justify young people in spending the necessa
money to get it.
   This, as is well known, we are not now doing . The salari
ers do not compare favorably with the wages of workers
that require little education and even less special trainin
the renaissance one Italian city devoted half of its income
In the United States today we devote only a little more than
with 1 State spending as little as 1 .75 percent. If we wa
with a larger amount of general education, we simply sh
pay' salaries that will justify young people in making th
investment in themselves to qualify to satisfy our deman
   The desired increase in general education of teachers wil
from the projects, costly as they are, of the Fund for the
of Education. They may improve a small fraction of te
they are unlikely to have any widespread national effect .
     ne of its projects finances for 200 or 300 high-scho
annual fellowships that permit advanced cultural studie
present rate the fund would require 750 years and an exp
$1,200 million to give such advantages to all secondary-scho
at present in service, and even at that, because of the turnov
it would never catch up. The officers of the fund have stat
hope their project would stimulate local school boards to fi
lar leaves for study by other teachers .
   But after 3 years of what the fund erroneously calls "a g
ment" there is no evidence that the hoped-for result is in s
according to reports from a number of schools from which
teachers were selected, has the expenditure of several mill
on the project produced any material improvement in ed
in the increased ambition of other teachers .
  This is but one of several expensive projects that th
financed for a purpose praiseworthy in itself but wasteful
to have any significant results on education throughout
The relatively few fortunate teachers probably profited
year of study, but it was unrealistic to expect that their
would materially affect all, or any considerable part, of
of the Nation.
  There is no time to comment here on several other projec
by the fund. It is sufficient to assert that though some go
out of them they are for the most part propagandistic of th
professional education is of far less importance than the pub
vinced that it is and also of the idea that secondary educa
portant only for naturally gifted youth .
  How much professional education, and of what kinds is needed
are trying by experiment and by experience to ascertain . It m
be that in the rapid development of professional-education progr
there are now some wasteful courses aid some poor instructi
which may also be found in liberal-arts colleges, and that there i
overemphasis on theory and on techniques . But the improvem
that is needed and the desired balancing of general and professio
education will not come about by a condemnation of the whole p
gram and an attempt so to discredit and subordinate it that it bec
insufficient and ineffective.
  What is needed, and what as a member of the Advisory C
mittee I recommended with what seemed to be the approval of
fellow members, is an objective study of the whole program of
fessional education of schoolteachers and administrators, a st
conducted by an impartial and able investigator that will show
any existing faults, including an overemphasis on pedagogy, an
the same time recognize and record practices that are sound in th
and of proved effectiveness.
  Such an objective study was made of medical education some ye
ago by Dr . Abraham Flexner with an appropriation from the Carn
Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching .
  Flexner's objective' and sensible report caused a revolution
improvement in medical education, a revolution so sound tha
has been universally approved by physicians and by the public ali
But concerning the professional education of school people the offi
of the fund begin their propaganda against current practices by
assumption that they know what the preparation should be w
such an assumption, however unsound, would not be disturbing
these, officers did not have at their disposal millions of money, y
and mine, as well as Mr . Ford's to promote their theories . To wh
ever extent successful their propaganda, disguised under decla
benevolence, the effect is likely to be decreasing . public confid
and perhaps decreased public support for what is desirable
necessary .
   In this extended statement I am not attacking, the phenome
of foundations that are established with benevolent intent . T
have great potentialities for benefiting mankind,, and I say with
reserve that on the whole the major foundations deserve and h
won by their_ activities the respect, the confidence, and the grati
of informed people.
   It has been stated that, unlike colleges and universities, fou
tions have no alumni to defend them . But they do have influen
people as members of their boards,: and these members have power
friends, some of whom are more inclined to be partisanly defen
than objectively critical . Moreover, there ,~ atie also thousands . w
 bility, relative importance, and timeliness of importan
projects. The advice received, along with the recommend
supporting reasons of the administrative officers, should be
by the board of trustees ill making final decision as to appr
   This stated function does not suggest that the administrat
should refrain from seeking counsel from other individua
own choosing . But it emphasizes the wisdom and the resp
not only of getting counsel from representatives of the publ
of transmitting their advice to the ultimate authority of
tion .
   The responsibility of spending the resources of a- f
which to repeat, are contributed largely by the public-are
to be assumed by any individuals without the advice and
planning of the professional organizations that will be r
for the success of any project that is undertaken .
   2. To conduct-or, better still, to finance-scientific res
will reveal facts needed by the public or its representatives
ized fields in order that it can proceed wisely in plannin
   It should go without saying that a foundation should
attempt to influence findings and conclusions of research and inv
either through designation of personnel or in any other way.
  This principle was stated some years ago by the Laur
Rockefeller Foundation as follows
  To support scientific research on social, economic, and governmen
when responsible educational or scientific institutions initiate the re
sor the research, or assume responsibility for the selection and
the staff and the scientific spirit of the investigations .
     3 . To support projects having promise of making the wi
 ble contribution to the whole population .
     This rules out-appropriations for projects that are local i
 or promotive of the interests of favored 'individuals .
     4 . To popularize objectively ascertained facts in order
 widely known they will influence thinking and action .
     This stated function implies that all pertinent and import
 not merely those that are favorable to a favored side of dispu
 should be popularized .
   - 5 . "To make possible under the auspices of scientific" or p
,organizations truly representative of the public' "demo
 which may serve to test, to illustrate, or to lead to more ge
 tion of measures * * * * which have been devised * * a
 mended by responsible agencies."
     6. To support the beginnings of activities which leade
 public especially concerned approve but for which financia
 has not been made available.
democratic ideal of giving an appropriate education to . all the c
dren of all of the people ;
  2 . That the fund is using its great resources, mostly contributed
the public by the remission of taxes, to deprecate a program of p
fessional education of teachers and school administrators that has
approved by the public with legislation anc appropriations, ; . .. ,
  3 . That the fund has ignored, the professional organizations
teachers and school administrators, neither seeking their . advice
cooperation nor making appropriation to support projects propo
by them ;
  4. That the fund has made grants to favored localities and in
viduals for projects that are not likely_ to have any wide or . impor
influence ;
  5 . That the fund has given no evidence of its realization of its ob
gation as a public trust to promote the general good of the ent
Nation ;
  6. That the fund has. in some cases: been wastefully .prodiga
making grants beyond the importance of the projects ; and
  7. That the fund either has no balanced program of correlated c
structive policies, or else it has failed to, make them public .
  The CHAIRMAN . Dr . Briggs, we appreciate a man with your ba
gound of experience taking time to make, this . statement to the
mittee .
  There maybe some questions . We have •a few minutes remaining,
it is agreeable to the committee to run for a few minutes after
we might .dispose of the questions . today. If not, we . will have to
sult Dr. Briggs convenience as to when we, might do so.
  I have only one question that I had in mind asking . If you
permit, I will get that out of the way, because it is, a general one,
  In his report to the committee, Mr . 'Dodd referred to the . tend
of foundation trustees to embark upon projects without having m
an adequate effort to make certain that in the eyes of the experts
projects could be regarded as being in the public interest . What e
dence have you found in your experience of the way in which
public interest was taken into consideration before decisions were
in an effort to serve this interest?
  Dr. Bmnoos. I am not competent to speak, Mr. Chairman, about
operation of all of the foundations . But as I have said in my st
ment, there is no evidence that the Ford fund has consulted the re
sentatives of the public .- They have consulted only advisers of t
own selection .
  The CHAIRMAN . That was all.
  Mr. GooDWIN . I have only one question, Mr . -Chairman .
  Now, if that is true, then these foundations, using their
the general purpose of education, would naturally, I wou
expected to work with State departments of education to th
public funds available to the State departments might be re
other purposes.
  What is your estimate as to what this fund of which you
ing has been doing along that line? Has there been a
coo eration with State department of education?
     r. BRIGGS. There has not . There is only one instanc
this fund has made an appropriation that looks to the en
mentioned and that was an appropriation to the State of
to finance the high-school education of gifted boys who co
wise not go to school . But that was not directly and no
initiation and cooperation of the State department .
   On the other hand, the General Education Board some
responded to the appeal of the Southern States for help in
research department in their State departments of educat
the public was not willing to support at that time . A
General Education Board appropriated money which wa
the State departments to organize and continue the statist
sions until the public was convinced of the wisdom of taking
which they did.
  Does that answer your question?
  .Mr . GoonwIN . Yes .
  Mr. WoRMsER . I would like, Mr. 'Chairman, to ask a few
  Mr. HAYS . Just a moment, I have a few questions .
   The CHAIRMAN. Since we have asked the questions, p
Hays would like to ask some questions .
   Mr. HAYS . Dr. Briggs, are you a member of the NEA?
   Dr. BRIGGS . I am .
   Mr. HAYS . Do you believe the charge is true that the
NEA is to create a monopoly over United States educatio
   Dr. BRIGGS . I do not .
   Mr. HAYS . Well, that is something, I am glad to have t
is a charge that was made here on page 20 of Mr . Dodd's
   Would you say the charge is true or untrue that the NE
educaional agencies with which it cooperates are charac
one common interest, namely, the planning, and control
aspects of American life through a combination' of the Fe
ernment and education?
   Dr. BRIGGS. I don't know what that means, Mr. Hays.
   Mr. HAYS . Neither do I. But I thought perhaps you w
you are an educator . That is another charge that
against the NEA . It . is that it and other educational age
which it cooperates are characterized by one common intere
subordinate associations.
  Now I am a member of the National Association of Seconda
School Principals, and I have been prominent since its organizati
and I was one of the founders of it . I would say that the Nation
Education Association has had practically no influence on the polic
and the program of that association .
  Mr. HAYS . What you are saying then just tends to be the oppos
of the statement I read?
  Dr . BRIGGS . If I understand it.
  Mr. HAYS.- If I understand it, I would agree that it does .
  Well, now, there is another charge that I have heard against
NEA that is that the result of the work of the NEA and other edu
tional organizations with which it has worked over the years-this
the quote
  Had an educational curriculum designed, to indoctrinate the American stud
from matriculation to the consummation of his education .
  In other words, to put that in common-every-day language, a
   t it, that is that the NEA has set about to lay out a planned eurri
rum to indoctrinate these students, from the day they go into sch
until the day they get out, with their ideas .
   Would you say that is a fair charge? ;
   Dr. BRIGGS; Well, I will have to back up to answer that questi
Of course, the NEA and all.teachers try to indoctrinate their child
to tell the truth and to be honest and to be loyal to the American G
ernment, and to learn the meaning of allegiance, and to live up. to
That is indoctrination, and if that . is. what that means, it is guil
   If on the other hand, if you mean, the statement means that in t
the NEA or any of its subordinate organizations has attempted
curriculum to indoctrinate contrary to the'gbnerally accepted prog
of American education, I would deny it absolutely.
   Mr. HAYS . All right . In other words, you say they do try to
doctrinate their students with what we are commonly calling Ame
canism, but you deny absolutely that they try to indoctrinate t
with anything that is un-American.
   Dr. BRIGGS . I certainly do .
   Mr. HAYS . Thank you .
   Now, there is another char made against the NEA that it te
to criticize strongly anyone who dares to doubt the valilty of its
clusions. Do you think that is a fair charge?
   Dr. BRIGGS. It doesn't have any conclusions, Mr . Hays.
                                                 y
   Mr. HAYS. You know, Dr . Briggs, I think you-I would like to t
further with you, because I have been a member of the NEA, too,
that is just the same thing that I thought about it .
tions.
   Mr. HAYS . In other words, you would say' that there is
this charge that the foundations and the NEA and other
agencies have got a sort of a tightly knit superdirectorate
knows who they are!
   Dr. BRIGGS . Well, you have three units there, the found
NEA, and other organizations. 'What organizations ar
   Mr. HAYS. That is a question I cannot answer . - I am ,q
some of the testimony that has gone on here and I am as
dark about it as -you are .
   Dr. BRIGGS. I certainly am in the dark, because the N
foundations don't cooperate . Whether the NEA coope
other agencies or, not, no one can say until the other a
named.
   Mr. HAYS . Now, Dr. Briggs, what was the name of this
the advisory committee of the Ford Fund
   Dr. BRIGGS . Yes ; the advisory committee of the Ford F
Advancement of. Education .
   Mr. HAYS. How many members were there, of that advi
   Dr. BRIGGS. I . think there were 9 or 10.
   Mr. HAYS. Do you think the other, members agree wit
clusions, as you have read them here?'
   Dr, Bluoos. Mr. Hays, they are friends of mine, and I
to be excused from answering that question .'
- Mr. HAYS. Do you think it would be fair if we asked' t
 in and tell 'us what they think about it?
   Dr. BRIGGS. May I cite a paragraph of my statement$
   Mr. HAYS . I' wish that you' would, just, because I canno
In , Mind.
   Dr. BR GGs. I have said in my statement, which I read,
 tunately there are people who, through the expectation of
'funds; are afraid to criticize them .
   Mr. HAYS. Do you mean by that statement
   Dr. BRIGGS . I don't mean anything . .        .
   Mr. HAYS . You do not want to- indict your fellow mem
   Dr. BRIGGS . I would also state that there are some ve
 sonnel in that committee, very able eo le, but it is intere
 that one has been put in charge'ofpa $2 million project
 Foundation, and it is interesting to note that another on
the Arkansas project which I don't like .
    It is also, interesting to note : that another,one has been
an adviser, pf the I+ ord' . Fund. ° That is.- a guaranty of '
 Service during the .year . . It is also, interesting to note t
 -fourth member of •the committee, was employed for a year
place-we might be in serious disagreement .
  I think if you are testifying about an organization, whether y
are disgruntled with them or not might have some bearing on it.
  Mr. WoRMSER . Mr. Chairman-this applies to what you say . .
  Mr . HAYS. . Now just a moment, I have some more questions . I
more . than sliglitly interested in this, as I got it from hearing you
statement read, and I will admit I do' hot know anything about -t
But one of your indictments seemed to be that this fund thought th
was too many professional courses required of teachers and not eno
cultural ; is' that a fair assumption of what 'you said?
  Dr. BRIGGS . Yes.
   Mr. HATS : Would you think it would be more important for
teacher -of French to know'French or to know the psychology a
philosophy of education?
   Dr . BRIGGS . He could not teach French without knowing Frenc
of course ..
   Mr. HAYS: I am afraid, that some of the universities are turning
teachers 'who have a .lot of required courses, and I might tell you t
I spent about 2 years taking them, and I cannot remember offha
the name of any~ professor, except one, or anything they said .
   Dr . BRIGGS. You did not take my courses .
  Mr. HAYS. I am sure that I would have remembered some of you
But a great many of those so-called courses in professional' educat
to me, as I saw it then, and as I look back on' it now, were a compl
waste of my time.
  Dr. BRIGGS . May I again cite ., my statement?
  Mr. .IIAYs. . Surely.
   Dr. BRIG 8 . I said it is quite possible that in the rapid developm
of these professional institutions that there are courses that are was
ful and thatt there is instruction which' is poor . We are trying to f
out what is a proper' balance between cultural demands for educati
and demands for professional education.
   I think this objective study that I proposed would take care of t
It would show up the sham, and I admit that there is sham and was
as you found otit, in professional courses, and there is some in libe
arts colleges, too . I judge you went to a liberal arts college, did
not?
   Mr: HAYS . I did not want to get the name of it in the record, in
unfavorable light, but it was Ohio State University, and I suppose, it
considered a liberal arts college . It has a number of colleges, as
know .
   Dr. BRIGGS . Well you found some courses that were not much g
in the'liberal arts division,' did you not?
   Mr. HAYS . Yes, I think so, and I would not want to name tho„^
teach.
    Dr. BRIGGS . And other people know what to teach and d
how to teach .
    Mr. HAYS . As I get it, your main indictment then of this
tion is that you think, in your opinion, that it stresses t
cultural to the lack of the professional type of education, is
  . Dr. BRIGGS . No ; they assumed to know that that is the
 I do not think anybody knows the answer now . I think t
got to find out what the proper balance between profession
tural education is. Just because you have the administrat
lions of dollars does not bestow on you the wisdom to
decision.
    Mr. HAYS . You, made a statement there, as I made a quick
here, that lead me to believe that you were saying that
are intimidated by the Ford Foundation.
    Dr. BRIGGS . I do .
    Mr. HAYS . Well, now, to what extent would you say
As far as I would know out in my State I would, guess
percent of educators don't even know that there is such
ization.
    Dr. BRIGGS. Oh, yes, they do .
   Mr. HAYS . As this subgroup of the Ford Foundation, so th
ver well intimidate them?
       . BRIGGS, 99.9 percent of them have made application
    Mr. HAYS . I am afraid that that is a bald statement t
to serious question .
    The CHAIRMAN. You are speaking figuratively now?
    Dr. B iGGs . Yes,, that is a hyperbole, but,MacCauley~said
speak in hyperbole in order to get the point over. No, M
wish I had brought with me the file of letters,t receive
resignation was, published. They came from all over th
Time after time these men have said, "We feel exactly as
we don't dare say anything because if we do,, if we make an
for a gra~nt from the fund, what we say will be -prejudi
    Mr. HAYS . Who are these men, are they college ,professo
ary school teachers, or who?
    Dr . BRIGGS . Well, within a month, two college presidents
that to me, and I don't know how many college professors,
intendents of schools, and high school principals .
    Mr. HAYS . Well, of course, within a month I have talke
college presidents who say just the opposite, and that this
vestigation is stupid and what should they do with the que
It is costing them a lot of money and they think it is
that is a matter of opinion .
versities and school systems, are afraid to express their criticism
the foundations lest they prejudice their chances of their instituti
for help.
  Mr. HAYS . Well, I think the way to get the story on that is to
them come in and testify as to that and I don't see how we can acc
any outsider's opinion, yours or mine, about that.
  Dr. BRIGGS . It is immaterial whether you accept it or not. I m
the statement on the basis of the letters that I have had, and
statements that have been made to me . I thought that is what
wanted me to do .
  Mr. HATS. That is all.
   The CHAIRMAN . There is just one question I wanted to raise wh
is for you, Mr. Hays. In your earlier questioning, you appeared t
quoting language which I presume will appear in quotes in the rec
and with those quotations from the statement which ' Mr. Dodd m
to the committee.
  Mr. HAYS. Yes ; I can give you the page number .
  The CHAIRMAN . Or the preliminary draft.
  Mr. HAYS . The first question which then witness answered, was,
you believe the charge is true that the aim of the NEA is to creat
monopoly over education ." That .is on page 20 . That is the sec
question . The first question was, "Are you a member of the NE
which, of course, was not a quotation .
   The next question, "Is the charge true or untrue that the YEA
other educational agencies with which it cooperates are character
by one . common interest, namely, the planning and control of cert
aspects of American life through a combination of the Federal Gov
ment and education," and that is on page 22.
   The next question, which I won't take the time to read, comes : in
Dodd's statement on page 23, and the next one on page 24, and I d
happen to have noted the, page number of the last one, also a quote,
it is there .
   The CHAIRMAN . I wondered whether you quoted from the state
he made to the committee...
   Mr. WORMSER . Mr. Chairman, Professor Briggs would like to
away today if he possibly can .
   Mr . HAYS. Would you have any objection at this point if we reces
for lunch, and we find this out this afternoon ?
   The CHAIRMAN . Do you have further questions?
   Mr. HAYS . I haven't had a chance to read his statement, and I mi
have There were several things that occurred to me at the time,
I didn't have the exact language and I didn't want to question him.
   Mr. WORMSER . I would waive any further questioning, Mr . H
and I would just ask to introduce his letter of resignation to the
      49720-54-pt. 1	8
Hays .
   Mr. HAYS . Now, before we introduce this in, do you have
Mr . Wormser,, to call any of these other people who sit on
mittee, or did sit on this committee with Dr . Briggs?
   Mr. WORMSER. No; I do not, sir.
   Mr. HAYS. Well, I think in order to keep these . hearings
it might be nice if we had 1 or 2 of them to come' in, at least
and just pick 1 at random.
   Dr. BinGos. Don't pick one at random.
   Mr. HAYS . I want to pick him at random . . Now, look,
don't want you ,to pick the one, and I am sure you would
one who would agree with you .
   Dr. BRIGas . I would, suggest that
   Mr. HAYS . Can you name one who disagrees with you?
   Dr. BRIGus . Oh, Yes.
   Mr. HAYS . That is what I would like to hear .
   Dm. BRIGGS. Would you like the name?
   The CHAIRMAN . Well, now
  Mr. HAYS . I am asking this for my own information .
   The CHAIRMAN . I' certainly have no objection; but 'I wa
about the name of the person, the individual .
   Mr. HAYS. I can undoubtedly get the list of people,' and'I
one out .
   The CHAIRMAN . I don't want to put ; someone 'else's na
record, in what somebody might construe as an odious posi
   Mr. BAYS. Could we have an agreement that we will call
these other'people?
   The CHAIRMAN . So far as 'I personally am concerned, if it
  Mr. HAYS . We will make it fit in .
       BRIGGS . I• can give you the name personally, if you w
  The CHAIRMAN. But I see no objection to this letter of r
going into the record and it would occur to me it_ is pertin
testimony.
  Mr. HAYS . I may object to it, because you objected to
into the record something that I thought was pertinent th
and I am only trying, to keep, these hearings objective . „ No
will agree we are going to call in at least one other memb
committee and get his views, that is one thing, but if w
going to get one side of it then I 'will tell 'you right now,
to object.
  Dr. Biaoos. I have said practically every thing' in the stat
I said in this letter of resignation, and so I think it is imma
  The CHAIRMAN. I assumed that you had .
tinued if a witness is not able to appear today, it will carry over to
next day?
   Mr. HAYS . May I have an understanding that the next witness
comes in without a prepared statement and you undertake to ques
him and get him out of here, all the same morning, there won't be
meeting. If the minority isn't here, there can't be a meeting, and
minority is not going to be here unless we are going to run this
on an adequate basis so we have a chance to find out what it is all a
   Mr. WORMSER . Do you mean a witness can't testify without a st
ment?
   Mr. HAYS . Let him come back when I have had a chance to loo
his statement so I can ask him some questions about it .
   Mr. WORMSER. The next witness will not have a prepared state
   Mr. HAYS. You had better make plans to let us look at his st
ment and question him later.
   The CHAIRMAN . He can be made available for questioning la
   Mr. WORMSER . Yes .
   The CHAIRMAN . The committee will meet in this same room
morrow morning, Wednesday, and Thursday morning we will hav
reserve the announcement of the place of the meeting, and we ma
able to meet here . If not, we will make the announcement tomo
 Being a special committee, we are more or less in a . difficult sit
 when it comes to meeting places . We will recess now.
    (Whereupon, the committee recessed at 12 : 30 p. m., to reconve
              .)
 Wednesday morning
                           HOIISE or REPRESENTATIVES,
                        SPECIAL CGMM1TrEE TO INVESTIGATE
                                    TAX RxEMPT FotnmATIONs,
                                                   Washington, D .
  The special subcommittee met at 10 a. m., pursuant to recess, in
429, House Office Building, Hon . Carroll Reece (chairman of
special subcommittee) presiding .
   Present : Representatives Reece, Hays, Goodwin, and Pfost.
  Also present: Rene A . Wormser, general counsel ; Arnold T . K
associate counsel ; Norman Dodd,- research director ; Kathryn Ca
legal analyst ; and John Marshall, Jr., chief clerk , to the spe
committee.
  The CHAIRMAN . The committee will please come to order .
  Who is the next witness, Mr . Wormser?
  Mr. WORMSER. Dr. Hobbs, Mr . Chairman .
  The CHAIRMAN . Dr. Hobbs, will you please stand and be sw
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in t
proceeding shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
truth, so help you God?
  Dr. HOBBS . I do .
  Mr. HAYS . Mr. Chairman, just in view of the statement you m
on the opening day about all of the witnesses being sworn, I thin
would be well that the record show that Dr. Briggs yesterday was
sworn.
  The CHAIRMAN . Professor Brigggs was sworn and I think
record will so show, or at least it should show .
  Mr. HAYS. On discussing it last night, we thought he had not b
We started to swear him and we got off the track .
  The CHAIRMAN. I have not looked at the record .
  Mr. KocH . Page 251 .
  Mr. HAYS . He was sworn.
  The CHAIRMAN. Yes ; I did swear him in . Thank you very m
  Mr. Wormser, do you wish to make a preliminary statement of
kind?
  Mr. WoRMsER . Yes ; I want to say that Dr. Hobbs will testify chi
on the nature of social-science research. I think we may take it
granted, and I' think the foundations will agree, that social-sci
research in this country now. is financed virtually entirely by the f
dations and the United States Government . There is very little
vately financed social research .
  Dr . Hobbs will analyze some of this research for methods and
and discuss some of the results of the type of research that is used.
                                                                113
  The CHAIRMAN . When a witness has a prepared stat
ordinarily then defer questioning until the witness has conc
his prepared statement . But where that is not the case, we
better procedure to be questioned as you go along . You ma
  Mr. GOODWIN . Mr. Chairman, might I inquire whether
witness is available later in the event that we might feel af
seen the record that we want to interrogate him concerning t
his testimony which we had not caught when he gave - his te
  The CHAIRMAN. I assume he could be made available, cou
  Mr. WoRMSER. I think Dr . Hobbs is prepared to stay t
we want him . I am sure he would be glad to come back if n
  May I ask you first to identify yourself with a short b
note?
  Dr . HOBBS. I took undergraduate work at what was then
College. It is now Penn State University . I took grad
at the University of Pennsylvania and received a Ph . D . in
ceived a Ph . D. in. sociology there . I began teaching soc
social science in 1936 at the University of Pennsylvania,
for 3 years in the military service, I taught continuously .
  Is that sufficient?
  Mr. WORMSER . What is your position now ?
  Dr. HOBBS . I am an assistant professor at the Universit
sylvania.
  Mr. WoRMSER. Of sociology?
  Dr . HOBBS . That is correct .
  Mr. WORMSER. Dr. Hobbs, you have written: quite a numb
cles and several books . I am interested particularly in
recent book which is called Social Problems and Scientism
you might launch into a discussion of "scientism" giving y
nation of how you use that term.
  Dr. HOBBS. All right, sir. There is, or at least there s
and I think most people would agree with this who have bee
in the matter in teaching or studying, there is a' good deal
sion about the term "science ." There is a tendency to de
science a number of things which are not science, or at leas
serious question as to whether they are scientific or not .
tempted to analyze this problem by going to the books de
scientific methods to find out in what way it could be an
interpreted.
  By way of background, I would just like to mention a
which are usually included in scientific investigation.
  The method of science is one which has been tremendousl
ful in solving a variety of types of problems, but, as we al
began in fields such as physics and chemistry and astrono
  This method involves, for one thing, controlled observation .
that is meant that if I express my opinion on something, my belie
how to raise children, you express your opinion, we can debate th
opinions back and forth from now until kingdom come, and in no
that will necessarily reach agreement . That, of course, was the sit
tion in philosophy for many centuries . But with the scienti
method, they gradually learned to use this technique of control
observation, a means whereby anybody, no matter what his feeli
on the matter, no matter what his beliefs or prejudices, in obser
the results, is compelled to agree as to them .
  In order to use this technique of controlled observation, whic
fundamental in scientific procedure, you have to reduce the thi
that you are studying to quantitative units-units which are quanti
tive, units which are not only quantitative, but which are homog
ous, and units which are stable . A quantitative unit is a thing in
which can be measured in terms of weight, distance, velocity .
science as you know, they have gone a step further and develo
instruments, ammeters, speedometers, scales, things of that type
means of which these units can be measured with a sufficient degree
precision to justify the type of experiment which is at that time be
done.
   Congressman Hays, that is the general context of exactness or p
cision in science for the purpose of experiments. The measureme
must be exact. But that does not mean exact in the sense of perfe
bility .
  Mr. HAYS. What I am trying to get at is this : Is there any sci
in which after these experiments the conclusions which are arrive
can be termed "exact"?
  Dr . HoBBS. The conclusions can be measured and in terms of
purposes for which the measurements are being made, they can be
to be exact . There will inevitably be some element of error wh
scientists always attempt to reduce to the least possible terms .
  Mr. HAYS. I believe you said that you are now teaching socio
and social science?
  Dr. HoBBS . I am teaching sociology ; yes, sir .
  Mr. HAYS . Is there such a thing as social science ?
   Dr . HoBBS. In the sense in which the term "science" is applied to
physical sciences, I think it is extremely questionable that the gr
bulk of the work in sociology, history, political science, could be des
nated as being scientific . In that sense, I would say very little .
   Mr. HAYS. But that is a term that has become quite common, an
used rather generally to bulk all of the sciences dealing with
sociological aspects of civilization, is it not?
   Dr. HoBBS. That is correct . The terms "social science" and "pol
cal science" and similar terms are very widely used . I think it w
drawings of calipers on the advertising blurbs, test tubes on
to give the teachers the impression that this is science i
that the term is used in physical science . Unfortunately,
great deal of that, and it confuses not only the general
many of the people in the field who are not too familiar with
methods themselves.
   The CHAIRMAN. You have read the statement which Mr .
to the committee?
   Dr. HoBBS . I have not, sir .
   The CHAIRMAN . You are not familiar with it, then?
   Dr. HoBBs . I am not, sir.
   The CHAIRMAN . He raised the question of some troub
from the premature acceptance of the social sciences . Y
ready to comment on that . If you are, I would be interes
ing you comment .
   Dr. HoBBs. I would, sir. I do intend to comment after I
this background which I think is essential.
   The CHAIRMAN. Very well ; you may proceed.
   Dr. HoBBS . As for reducing human behavior, partic
aspects of human behavior which are most significant in th
ships between people and in civilized society, to attempt
those to quantitative units is extremely difficult, and for th
at the present time impossible .
  With human beings there are some things which are qua
that is, your bodily temperature could be called a quantita
which in turn can be measured with an instrument, the t
Similarly with your blood pressure, your corpuscle count,
tion between white and red, the number of hairs on your
things like that, can be counted . Sometimes it is pretty ea
the number of hairs on your head . The other things, t
the sentiments-patriotism, love, bravery, cowardice, hones
of that sort-have never been' reduced to quantitative uni
is still a large element of the qualitative in them . That is,
you are patriotic, your patriotism cannot be measured in pre
which will be agreed upon by all the observers .
  Mr. HAYS. Professor, I think we are agreed on that . Is
argument on that score?
  Dr. HoBBS . The impression is given in many works, and
some of them, that that is not the case. It is a crucial
mental point which I want to give by way of background .
  Mr. HAYS . You mean you say that you can measure pat
  Dr. Hoses. That is implied .
  Mr. HAYS. I was aware that there are people who thi
measure patriotism, but it is always according to their st
I think, is quite crucial . If you are studying electrons, if you
studying matter, or the behavior of matter, the method of study
employ, the amount of the time you spend on studying it, the atti
which you have while you are makin the study, does not affect
object which is under study ; that is, If you think electrons are n
or unpleasant or things like that, that is not going to affect the
havior of electrons . But unfortunately, with human beings aga
sometimes the very fact that a study is being made can change th
behavior. That is always a possibility which you have to be v
consciously aware of . An illustration of that of course would
the Kinsey report. The mere fact that you ask people question
the rapid fire nonemotional manner which professor Kinsey says
uses, would put a different aura on sexual behavior than might ot
wise be present . It could change your attitude toward sex .
   Similarly, if you are studying juvenile delinquents, and if
attitude in the study is that delinquency is caused by their envi
ment, or caused by the fact that the mother! was too harsh with
children in their youth, or overwhelmed them with affection, t
there is always the possibility-and some investigators contend t
this is a fact-the delinquents themselves become convinced that
is the case. They begin to blame their parents, their early envi
ment, and the situation which you have attempted to study has b
changed in the very process of making the study.
   Mr. HAYS . As I get it, then, you are saying in effect that there
dangers in studying hazards.
   Dr. HOBBS . That is right .
   Mr. HAYS . But you would not advise that we give up studying ju
ile delinquency?
   Dr. HOBBS. Absolutely not . These things certainly need study .
   The CHAIRMAN. Professor, since you .referred to the Kinsey rep
what do you consider the significance of the fact that the initial
sey study was financed by a foundation grant?
   Dr. HOBBS . Sir, I intend to use the Kinsey report as an illustra
of some of these pseudoscientific techniques, and as an illustratio
the possible influence which this type of study may have . In that
text, I would prefer to take it up that way .
   The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
   Mr. HAYS. You are saying that Dr . Kinsey is a pseudoscientist
that right?
   Dr. HOBBS. No, Sir.
   Mr. HAYS . He has used the pseudoscientific approach .
   Dr. HOBBS . I said that he has used techniques which are pseudosci
tific.
   Mr. HAYS. I would not know anything about that . I am not
quainted with his books or techniques.
 being studied . Again if you come out and say in your fin
 sexual behavior of a wide variety is prevalent and so on,
 self can--do not misunderstand me, I am not saying tha
 should not be published because of this factor, but it
 recognized that the findings of a study can affect the type
 which is being studied .
   Mr. HAYS . To get the emphasis off sex and on somethin
I am more interested in, say, juvenile delinquency, you wou
 agree with me that the very fact that the newspapers cons
or have been recently that juvenile delinquency is increas
is becoming an ever-greater problem, might have a tenden
some juveniles think about delinquency . But on the ot
we cannot hide our heads in the sand and say it does not
we?
   Dr. HOBS . I certainly believe that the facts in this c
findings are from the uniform crime reports of the Fede
of Investigation, and they are factual findings, and they
should be publicized . But they are not publicized in the
as being scientific findings . That is the extent of delinqu
being published as being a scientific finding . If it were, th
have a different effect.
   Mr. HAYS. I am inclined to agree with you that it cou
effect, and perhaps various effects. I think you would per
with my thinkin that when you are dealing with juveni
subjects in Dr . I~insey's books you are dealing with hum
and there are just as many variations as the people you a
with ; is that not right?
   Dr . HoBBS. There are tremendous variables which have t
into consideration, which make the problem of a study
beings an extremely difficult one .
   Mr. HAYS . In other words, if you approach a study of
juveniles, you might get conceivably 1,000 different reacti
same situation . The chances are that you would not, but it i
that you could .
   Dr . HOBBS. It is quite possible .
   Mr. HAYS : Just the same as every one of the thousand have
fingerprints .
   Dr . HOBBS . Yes, Sir. With this scientific method being
another thing you have to have is that even if you are able
the things you are studying to quantitative, uniform, and st
then merely doing that does not constitute the scientif
Merely counting things is not science . The philosopher o
Alfred North Whitehead, said in effect, if we had merel
things, we would have - left science' exactly in the state i
was 1,000 years ago.
   Dr. HOBBS . Yes, sir, but to go back to Congressman Hays' ques
about juvenile delinquency, . if you were merely going to count th
deliquents and measure the lengths of their noses and the size
shape of their ' ears, and so on, you could make such measureme
which might be exact to a high degree . You could make such me
urements for a long, long time . I think you will agree you proba
would not find out anything basic about delinquency .
   Mr. HAYS . You mean the size of their noses has nothing to do with
   Dr. HoBBS . I would not venture to hazard a guess . I don't k
I would say probably not .
   Mr. HAYS. I would be brave and guess that it would not .
   The CHAIRMAN . But as I understand, you mean to say that it w
not get at what might be the basic causes of juvenile delinquency .
   Dr. HoBBS . I would be extremely doubtful, of course.
   Mr. HAYS. We would all agree on that, would we not?
   Dr . HoBBS . In other words, mere accounting is not enough. Eve
you can count with relative accuracy, you still have to have a hy
thesis. A hypothesis is a statement as nearly as exact as you
make it, a statement of what you are going to try to prove, or w
you are going to try to disprove, and then you make your control
observations . Then you will find that the hypothesis is not vali
you find that it has been validated by your observations, by your
ductions and by your deductions .
   The final test of scientific method is verification. This, of cou
is particularly vital when you are dealing with human behavior
where the findings of the study could influence human behavior .
these cases, the findings should be verified not only by the person
made the study himself, but they 'should be verified by other pe
                                                       t
who are skeptical of it before you make any attempt to change hu
behavior or the society on the basis of the supposed scientific studie
   One test of verification is prediction . Even here you have to
extremely careful because sometimes what seems to be a predictio
merely a lucky guess . That is, if I predict the Yankees are goin
win the pennant this year, they might win the pennant-I am a li
bit afraid they will-but the fact that my prediction came true
not prove that I had worked it out scientifically . A prediction c
be a lucky guess, it could be a coincidence, or it could be the resul
factors other than the factors which you are investigating under y
hypothesis .
   Another common mistake is to confuse projection with predict
I could predict that women will wash-on Monday and iron on Tu
day . When I am doing that, I am not making a prediction, but I
assuming merely that the pattern of behavior which held true in
past will continue to hold true in the future . Many of the so-cal
   Mr. HAYS . I agree with you.
   Dr. HOBBS . With the scientific method having been so s
 and then employed
   Mr. WORMSER . Dr . Hobbs, may I interrupt to ask you, is
ment an essential mechanism in ordinary natural science
is unavailable .in social sciences?
   Dr . HOBBS. As a generalization that would be correct,
very much more difficult to set up conditions to conduct a
 experiment in social science than it is in-physical scien
 ability to set up those controlled experiments in physical
been a keystone in the tremendous success of the physical s
   Mr. Kocx. Do you say that in connection with juvenile
some social scientists have actually measured noses or
similar?
   Dr. HOBBS . No. I just used that as an extreme illustratio
   With the tremendous success of physical science, parti
the findings of physical science were translated by technol
practical things, like steam engines, and automobiles, and s
quite understandable that many people who have been st
have been interested in human behavior, should apply the
od-and this is crucial-or should apply what they think i
method, or what they can lead other people to believe i
method . Throughout the history of social science you c
correspondence between the attempts to apply the type of
hrnethod which is at that time successful in science to th
human behavior.
   Mrs . PFOST. Dr. Hobbs, you related a while ago about t
of individuals, such as women washing on Monday and
Tuesday. In what manner, now, do you feel that relates t
dations, this study that we are making here?
   Dr. HOBBS . I want to give this background to show the d
and it is an essential difference-between science as it is
physical sciences, and science as it is used in the social scie
is the type of thing that is sponsored by the foundations .
   Mr. HAYS. Doctor, I have always been aware of that d
Do you think that there is a general unawareness of it?
   Dr. HOBBS . I believe that is quite common. I am sor
taking too long .
   Mr. HAYS . No, take all the time you want .
   Dr . HOBBS. I do want to give this background . Then I
specific illustrations of the point you have in mind, where
definite effort to convince people that the two things ar
I will bring that out .
   Mr. HAYS . There has always been a loose term-at lea
always been familiar with it-in which we differentiated b
of science that exists in the study of hysical phenomena .
  Mr. HAYS . Yes ; but do you not thin we are going to have to r
somewhat upon the intelligence of the people to differentiate 1 T
committee or the Congress cannot legislate what people are going
think or what they are going to derive from certain statements in
newspapers . It might be desirable-I say very definitely it might
I do not think it would be-but we cannot do' it .
  Dr. HOBBS. I would agree with you that the improvement, call
the reform, in this should come from within the fields, and not thro
legislation. That is, in the use of such terms as science. The peo
in the fields themselves should govern that, and should be more care
in their usage, which may happen . I don't know. But that is not
case now . The confusion is greater now than it was in the past. T
is, the attempt to convince the readers of the textbooks, and tr
books, is definitely there, and it is on the increase, rather than be
on the decrease.
   Mr. HAYS . Yes; but do you not think any tendency on the part
the Congress-to try to legislate about that might conceivably get
in the situation where you would cut off valuable exploration into
unknown?
   Dr. HOBBS. I had no intent of suggesting that in any way . A
matter of fact, I explicitly stated otherwise.
  Mr. HAYS . I am not trying to put words in your mouth . I am try
to clarify in my mind and the people who read this hearing just w
we are discussing here .
   Dr . HOBBS . To legislate in that sense, to tell what words should
used, and how they should be used, would be extremely undesira
   Mr. HAYS . In other words, we could not any more define it t
you can define it .
   Dr. HOBBS . I think, sir, I can define it . But that does not m
that everybody should agree with me in any way .
   Mr. HAYS . In other words, it will be your definition.
   Dr. HOBBS. That is correct. Of course, the definition is based
the interpretation of the outstanding philosophers of science . I m
no claim that it is original with me, or unique with me . It is a com
ty e of definition .
    o in earlier days, the social scientists or what were then soc
philosophers, tried to apply the type of scientific technique which
successful at that time . The success in physical science has been
the area of mechanics . So the social philosophers attempted to
scribe human beings in terms of molecules and atoms and things l
that and contend that human beings came into social groups beca
of factors of centripetal force . They dispersed and came in beca
of factors of electrical attraction . Looking back on that now,
would say it was very naive . As the techniques of physical sci
   Mr. HAYS . Right there ; do you have any specific sugges
 what coud be done about that?
   Dr. HOBBS . I think it should be the burden and the' p
 sponsibility of persons making the study and publishing
 if they call it science, it should be their positive responsibil
 out the limitations, and not only point them out, but to
 them to avoid misleading the reader into the belief that it
 in the same sense that it is used in physical science . I thin
 come from the individuals concerned, rather than from l
   Mr. HAYS . I am inclined to agree with you, that is a desi
but the specific thing I am getting at is ; is there anythin
 about it, or is it just something that is desirable, that we wo
to happen, and if it does it is fine, and if it does not, that is all
   Dr. HOBBS . Sir, what I am leading up to, and I am very sor
this long but I think the background is essential, is stu
have been sponsored by the foundations which have done
of them in exaggerated form, the type of thing which you
I agree should be avoided if it is at all possible, and that
the impression that the social science in the same sort or vi
same as physical science .
   Mr. HAYS . In other words, to avoid giving the impressi
is exact .
   Dr. HOBBS . Yes, Sir .
   Mr. HAYS . And probably prefacing the study by saying t
studies are made under certain conditions, and have arriv
tain conclusions but everybody should know they might not
because we are dealing with human beings.
   Dr. HOBBS . That is correct, sir .
   Mr. GOODWIN . How about a combination of physical sc
mental or social? I am thinking about the lie detector .
parently is an attempt to measure mechancially what is
mind.
   Dr. HOBBS . As I understand it, sir, it is not so much an
measure what is in his mind, but it is a measure of fluc
blood pressure.
   Mr. GOODWIN. Has not that some relation?
   Dr. HOBS . Yes, and to assume from those fluctuations
is mentally disturbed or concerned or not in a manner wh
indicate that he were lying . But it rests on an assumptio
assumption may be invalid in some cases . In using such de
is something you have to be careful about .
   I would like to 'cite a number of these - studies to emphasiz
ner in which they can and apparently do influence importan
of human behavior, One of these studies I would like to cit
fluence on moral behavior . Another one .i s as an influence
   In the foreword of these books, it is stated that a grant was ma
to make these studies possible through the Committee for Resear
in Problems of Sex of the National Research Council of the Nation
Academy of Sciences, and that the Rockefeller Foundation ma
the grant.
   Professor Kinsey, in connection with his first volume, stated
reiterated or emphasized that he was merely interested in finding
fact of human sexual behavior . However, in the book (and numero
reviewers, have pointed this out) Professor Kinsey departs from me
statement of fact of human sexual behavior, and includes numero
interpretations, interpretations which do not follow from the t
of data which he collected .
   Mrs. PFOST . Dr . Hobbs, may I ask you, these books that you
relating here, they all have to do with donations that have been ma
by foundations in publishing the books . Is that the reason you
enumerating the particular books?
   Dr. HoBBs . In this case, the grant was apparently made so that t
study could be conducted . In the second case, the grant was ma
so that the study could be conducted . The book was published by
commercial publisher. Whether any grant was made for purpos
of publication I do not know .
   Mr. HAYS . br. Hobbs, I am sure that I am safe in assuming th
you are implying that these Kinsey reports are not very valuable .
   Dr. HOBBS . I do not mean to imply that, sir . A tremendous_ amou
of work was involved in conducting these studies .
   Mr. HAYS . But you do more or less imply that the scientific a
proach was not very good.
   Dr. HOBBS. There were numerous statistical fallacies involved
both Kinsey reports ; yes, sir.
   Mr. HAYS. You had no connection with the Kinsey project in a
way, have you?
   Dr. HOBBS . No, Sir. I have written articles relating to them f
the American Journal of Psychiatry, but no connection .
   Mr. HAYS. You have no desire to promote the sale of the book?
   Dr. HOBBS . Oh, no .
   Mr. HAYS . The reason I ask you that is that all the publicity ab
Kinsey has sort of died down and now we are giving it a new impe
here, and I suppose that will sell a few thousand more books .
   Dr. HOBBS . I have no financial interest in that or in any of t
publishing com p, anies, sir .
   Mrs. PFOST . Dr. Hobbs, you mean to imply that tax-free fun
were used for the Kinsey report?
   Dr. HoBBS . Yes.
   Mrs. PFOST . Thank you .
     Dr. HOBBS . Yes, Sir.
     The CHAIRMAN . And at the same time undertaking to
" country the overall impression that his findings and hi
  were based upon a scientific study which had been made, a
  of a grant .
     Dr . HOBBS. Yes, sir ; a scientific study of the type by
  which you have in physics and chemistry, and, therefore,
  sions cannot be challenged .
     The CHAIRMAN . Enumerating in the preface that it wa
  grant from one of the foundations giving it further prestige
  that it was of scientific value, and so forth .
    Dr. HOBBS . That would be correct. I have a statement to
  to show that very type of influence, which I will come to
  later.
     Mr. HAYS . Dr. Hobbs, I would like to ask you this : Is
  thing in the preface of the Kinsey volumes that says that
  to be taken as a general pattern of behavior for the who
  but just merely for the 5,000 or 3,000, or whatever numbe
  it was that he studied?
     Dr . HOBBS . In the first volume-that is the volume on m
  employed a technique of projecting his sample, which in
  if my memory serves me correctly, involved 5,300 males-
  of projecting that sample of 5,300 to the entire male popula
  United States. So the impression throughout the book wa
  and conveyed very strongly, that the findings-and not onl
  ings but the interpretation of the findings-applied to all o
  of the United States.
     In the second volume Kinsey does not use that technique,
  was-I would guess the reason he does not use it-because it
  cized by statisticians and others, including myself .
     Mr. HAYS . Then you think he has been amenable to cri
     Dr . HOBBS . The only acknowledgment that I know of tha
  Kinsey has made to criticism-he may have made others th
  this is the only oire I know of-where at one time he said
  reasons why people don't interpret me correctly is because t
  that the title of my book is "Sexual Behavior of the Hu
  when actually the title is "Sexual Behavior in the Huma
  could never quite grasp any deep significance of that d
  although Professor Kinsey's point apparently was made th
  in the field of taxonomy, where he came from before he t
  that type of title is generally employed.
     The CHAIRMAN. So far as the reaction among the pub
  cerned, I think there is a very wide feeling that his who
  and his publications are just a bunch of claptrap that ar
                                   I'am
•
     h"                     *;                 Is
•
                                                                       'bed
O~i -fi,ff


         ~---''
          _
         lohundih9 o

    Dr. 11PUBS . No sir .




    IN, HAIL I jut d6 Ant think *6 6uglit, to pick out the set gi Iran'




•
    Mt. HA-f DM* 't t "61%3 S Of All 60


    Mr. Mys. And if the public decides to lb6k 06i thi§ O'ii,6 th


                                                               11111      -a

case of the Kinsey report, which he, deems I M&V6 A,migthkefi pie
•
and even made the basis for &'466inA Mt l6ki0atinh that 6fir 1
and social practices be changed . I think it has enormous i0p6r


little I kxibw it tit 16 * : I in ',itoiti,hhvind served in two (liffet-en
legislative bodies, I woul sa that is a, sul~iect that most legislato
'__.---- .                   `                  . ounedtg omAelsty,frando thik
~xcit~d about it .
      49720-54-pt . 1-9
 desirable . .
    Socially condemned forms of sexual behavior ; and. cri
 of sexuall behavior are usually in the Kinsey volumes re
 normal, or normal in the human animal                  :;
    The presentation of moral codes, codes of sexual behav
 that they are contrasted with, what Kinsey calls . normal
 behavior, which could give the impression, and gave the
 to a number of reviewers, that things which conform to t
 approved codes of sexual conduct are rationalisations, not,
 wile things which deviate from it, such as homosexuality
 mal, in a sense right.
    Mr. HAYS . I would like to get that a little, straighter .,
         rking at a disadvantage never having read these v
are saying now that Kinsey says homosexuality is normal?
    Dr. HoBBs. Yes, sir.
    The CHAIRMAN . Possibly I should reserve this : ob
representatives of the foundations concerned, are, before . he
but what disturbs me, professor, is why, a foundation whos
made available by the people and the( Government,Jn f oris
or at least some 90 percent of the funds ate . .made+ . pss
people foregoing, the taxes which they otherwise would rece
you, and I make up, why a foundation should be,making gr
study of this nature. It may have sufficient -seient}iic'ialu
it, .but it certainly is a project that I, as Mr. Hays indicate
Government itself would not undertake to make the, unds,
to"Sponsor the project. Then why should some 'agency w
are made available by the Government foregoing.-the ,t
sponsor a project that has at least such a-great: questio
of mystery, surrounding it? ,
    Dr., Hoims. Sir, in respect to a grant for the first, volume
say there should have, been ; a good deal of ske~a tic sm . ; b
where the members of the foundations could, feelot mis
Professor .Kinsey- is a very . able man, . he: had, a very, good
in physical . science, in biology, specifically, in taxonomy,
an extremely, hard . worker.                                  f
   TI}e azAZRMAx, If you will permit an interjection,, all I
about professor Kinsey is very favorable . . ; .:
   Dr. Hosss . ~ Yes, sir.,
   The CHAIRMAN . As a professor and                            y,thit<
capable. The question is whether he roamed beyoml iil e
projected, himself . into this, study under ;tote; _g '&-nts ma
foundation . : .,                                   , . . .,~
   Mr,. -H vs. What You, are saying, . Mr. C hairmaf, js- th
expert on wasps .
   Dr. HoBBs. A particular kind of wasp .
the'o'thers related tin homosexuality . ;
   1Vtn iiA ; As I'follow you'now, you are'liftixig'a group of , wo
acid just mentioning them off,-and sayin g=that-they we -used thro
the honk . What T wsnt to know is, 'did he 'or clad he not .say hom
sexuality is Normal If he did, I'th nk then we -are on `safe grou
ingo ing further: If he did hot,-'let us say 'that
   D,r HoBBs. In the context of the presentation these'terms were us
more-than 1110 francs . I any net pickilig on air' occas onal term . "Th
terms were used over and over again in the ferst volume
   Mr . HAvs. I am asking you -a simple` question.'_ Did he-'or did
not-you can answer by -either -yesf'oriio==did he or did he not','s
homosexuality is normal behavior e t 3 '
   Dr. HOBBS . I would have to get the'vblume and the exact ref
   Mr. H     rs. I thought a moment ago that you mad the statem
that he said that . At least you left we with that impression
   Dr. HOBBS.. If I said that it was a niisifiterprefat on : - The impli
tion throughout the book iii,the context off normal iitammal i}'
                             is
                          the
havior, and so on, of implication . which is likely to' be' left in
minds of most readers the homosexualand other Eo ns-of socia
m
condemned 'forms              sexual behavior' are' normal'   1 canal iri'
mammalian sense .
   Mr. HA"'. In other .words you-are; saying -he,ieftsthat hinspl cat
                                                            ,
but he d4not say so flatly g
   Dr. HoBBS .'_ze'statement may Wit the book . , I would not
definitel -that it is? at is not.
   Mr. I AYS . I think it is bad' if he left the implication, -but I-thi
it is a - lot worse if =he'said so flatly .
   Dr. HoBBs . I agree with you,
   The C>rAn AN . But the quotationswhich you have just read, .
fessor, `which are ,explanations which' he gives in the book, certai
would agree the normality of such behavior .
   Dr . HOBBS. Very definitely and repeatedly .
   Mrs. Prose: Dr. . Hobbs, understood that the purpose' of the he
ings of this committee was to investigate'the donations and grants'
tax-exempt foundations to un-American-aactivities :or'subversive org
ization. I I was' wounderil g what bearing this Kinsey, `report has,on
angle of our hearings.;                                            f
   IDr . Hoes. My understanding-it way bedncorreot wit that th
was an interest=in-cal ether these, grarits .result in studies"-and`publ
tions which in a significant way, affect ?political activity : or mili
activityor'moral s ;ctivity.
   Mr. WoRxsER . May-J interject, if I may, Mr Chairman, ;to sugg
                                                            o
to Mrs; .Pfost .that Dr. Hobbs'hsrdly is iii a'posi'tion to testify what t
investigation coviars.: ; I think, the--committee ° itself ; would ~ have'
determine that .
    Mr. WORMSER. May I make this explanation,. Professor
written- a . book kn :which he has discussed what he called "
I still would like him to explain that word. The, word re
search and the type of writing in the social sciences which
widely by foundations- and it has certain, according to Dr .
his book, derogatory effects on our society . It, seems to m
proper subject; for investigation . . The Kinsey report is
examples o€ :a iece in one sense anyway, a mistaken inve
which has had derogatory effects.
    The CHaumAx. My feeling would be, Mrs. Pfost, that t
tee does h4vef full authority to investigate .. the grants whi
the foundations may have made to determine what the effect
grants may have been . However I think your question is, v
priate .ip indicating that we ought hot to let ourselves get
the byroad .          .
    Mr. G''oonwIN ., Tt seems to me, Mr.. Chairman, we ought
doctor go ahead and develop his testimony . So far as ! 'am
I will keep in the background any interest I have in this matt
    The CHAIRMAN If it is agreeable with the committee,
         .,
wouhd be . in the interest of good procedure ,to permit fir
proceed with the development of his thesis until we feel a
    MM. HA'Ys. Just .bafore he goes on, I am going to insist th
up this remark of the associate counsel, which, I think
in there deliberately to indicate I have an undue inter
matter. As you know, I told you in the beginning that
leve Kinsey clear ; out of this hearing One way otI' another
  ,
do not think this committee is competent to ,rule an- Ki
subject that he studied . I do not want, any- Bombers of th
be trying to put. me in a bad light . As -a matter of fact
that is concerned, I do not think' any can, even if they tr
going to make it plain right here that I am not going to s
and let it happen.
    While I am on the subject, the record might as well
there is--no minority staff, that the minority is sitting here
we try to protect- anybody that we think is being-porsecitt
still alones because the staff and the majority are& all of
opinion. I am tr ing to be openminded about the whole t
    Mr. GoonwIN . . Chairman, I think the record will
show that any buildup that has been given Mr . Kinsey th
has been done;by the committee.
    The CHAIRMAN . I think possibly that Professor Hobbs
been very restrained insofar as I 'am able to observe fro
said so far, and I do not think the . development by the
applies to any one member of the comittee ; it applies to a
 which studies can f ifiuence important aspects of human behavior;
 don't roe to impugn Professor Kinsey's ;motives, nor -the motives
 the members of the foundations or anything of that type . l
 merely saying that this can happen and this is . an illustration
 where it does happen .
    For an illustration, in connection ,with the ! question of hete
 sexuality compared with homosexuality, Kinsey in, ;`the first vo
 hpi,s this statement
    It is ~oaly because-society demands that there be a particular choice In
 matter (of heterosexuality or homosexuality) and does' not so often dic
        4~q~f .q fpoa or clothg.
    He puts it in terms of it is just a custom which society demand
    In the second volume it is stressed, for example, that we object
 adult molesters of children primarily because we have become -c
 ditioned against such adult molesters ,of children, and that the•, c
 dren who are molested become emotionally- upset, primarily beca
 of the old-fashioned attitudes of their parents, about .such .practi
 and the parents (the implication is) are the ones who do the r
 damage by making a fuss about it if a child is molested . Beca
 the molester, and' here I quote from Kinsey, "may' have contribu
 favorably to their, later sociosexual development." That is a moles
 of children may have actually, Kinsey contends, not only not harm
 them, but may have contributed favorably to their later sociosexu
 development.
    Especially emphasized in the second volume, the volume on female
 is the supposed beneficial effects of, .premarital sexual experienc
 Such experiences, Kinsey states :
 provide as opportunityfor the females to learn 6 adjust emotionally to var
,typeO of 3nale9 .
    That is on page 266 of the volume on females .
    In addition, on page 327 he contends that premarital sexual : e
 rienes may well contribute to the effectiveness of one's . other n
 sexual social relationships, and that . many females this ,is on p
 11,5 ..-will thus learn .Uow to respond to sociosexuai ,contacts .
    On page 32 , that it,should contribute to the development of,,
 tional .cap~ iti~es in a more effective way than if sexual experien
 axe„asugired after marriage.
    The avoidance ofpremarital sexual experience by females, acco
 in to Professor K nsey, may lead, to inhibitions, which damage           e
 cppacity , to „recpQnd, so much that these irihibitiong, ia;y persist a.
 years of marriage, tdif, indeed, they are ever dissipated " . Tha
 from page 330 .
    So,you et a .contir}ugd .~amphasis on tlle"desirali li"t f e
 ei% a n in= premarital sexual behavior . Tn both' of t ese volun
Report, which was edited by one Albert Ellis and publis
In this volume ail attorney-shall I give his name ; it is
larly a .fiattering reference?
  The CHAIRMAN . Unless there is something to 'be acco
it, I see no purpose to it .
  Dr,' Hoses. Iswill. omit these names, but if, you want
supply them. -- An attorney writing in this volume says th
  It may sound strange to say that the most encouraging note'
Kinsey report is its : indication that more and more women are
.commit more and more sex crimes .
  People get to think that this is a good thing 'if`women
and more sex crimes .
  Then from the same volume here are a series of state
prominent clergyman, and again I would : prefer not to i
but can if , you wish. He comes very,, very close to co
Kinsey findings and the :Kinsey study with religion .
  Looking for truths, mathematical, historical, artistic, sexual, a
kind of truth is a form of religious devotion . This questioning of
only one kind of worship, of course, but it is one to, which we are
is a devotional life involving laboratories and libraries, interviews,
   This is by a clergyman, and it comes to be almost a
substitute for religion.
   He says
  These (referring to Kinsey's findings) results are the facts wi
moralist will have to work and build .
   Do you want the page numbers on these citations, if a
to check them?
  The CHARM AN.' It would not hurt to give the page n
  Mr. HOBBS . The first reference was on page 79, and the
on page 80 . The reference by the attorney was on page 18
  Another of e,'also, by the clergyman
  Yet we cannot go back to the legalistic morality which, has prev
That has really outlived its usefulness if the Kinsey books are righ
   Here you ge t:a man who is undoubtedly sincere, but u
like many of us when we are in areas where we are not, e
fullible.~ Assuming this is published and labeled "science
It must be right ;, even clergymen have . to. go along with i
concepts of morality.
  That legalistic,conformism has outlived its usefulness by abou
If the New Testament is right. It is an emeritus ethic, due at least
retirement .
   That is on pages -92-and 93 .
  Just prior to the publication of the first Kinsey . "vol
on males, there was an article in Harper's magazine pre
clusions l that they were shocking, that they would change the laws,
that they would change attitudes toward morality, and so on, and
'he had this statement in there, which I think is particularly pertinent
to this inquiry
   So startling are its revelations, so contrary to what civilized man has been
 taught for generations, that they would be unbelievable but for the impressive
-weight of the scientific agencies backing the survey .
.' That is the unfortunate . thing that you have involved here . I do
not mean that the foundations meant it to be that way . I do not mean
even' that Professor Kinsey meant it to be that way . But unfortu-
nately the public does get that impression-that this is something that
is final and infallible, which you cannot and should not question . I
'think that is extremely unfortunate.
   Mr. WORMSER . Dr. Hobbs, would you take the time to give quickly
1 or 2 illustrations, starting at page 99 of your book, of reactions to
the first Kinsey report? I think some of them are particularly im-
portant . There are 1 or 2 which resulted in advocacy of legislation
to change sex laws . There is one from the Scientific Monthly on page
99. There is another from Professor McIver, and a third one from
R. L. Dickinson.
   Dr. Hosss. Yes .
  The Scientific Monthly is an impressive and deserved title for a sound and
scholarly magazine . In the December 1948 issue a review of the Kinsey report
appeared in this magazine . This review was written by a respected psycholo-
gist who did state some of the limitations inherent in the Kinsey sample, but
then went on to minimize these limitations . He described the report as an out-
standing achievement, which used basically sound methods, which led to trust-
worthy results . Not content to stop with description and assessment of the
method, the reviewer did precisely what the Kinsey report seems designed to
lead people to do, stating that it recorded "tremendous implications for scien-
tists, legislators, physicians, and public officers ." He contended that the report
"shows clearly that our current laws do not comply with the biologic facts of
normal sexual behavior ."                                 '
   In other words, the implication is that the laws should be changed
to conform with biology . If you have a biological urge, the law
should permit you to express that biological urge as it is demanding
on you.
   This review described the final result as "one of the most outstanding
contributions of social and biological science to the welfare of
millions."
   Then in another type of review, this was entitled, "About the Kinsey
Report," edited by Donald Porter Geddes and Enid Curie . Eleven
experts contribute observations about the Kinsey report . These ex-
perts, and some of them of great renown, included psychiatry, pro-
fessor of sociology, anthropology law, psychology, economics and
anatomy . They react in similar fashion. Some of them simp~y do
not know enough about scientific method and statistics to evaluate
Kinsey's report, and these accepted without qualifications . Others
have a suspicion that it is unscientific, but say in effect that it doesn't
matter, the important thing is that it be publicized and serve as a
basis for reform of sexual behavior and of laws which deal with
violations of sexual mores .
  Dr . Hoses . 'The point I wanted to make here is that this is the
of thing which can, and, I think you will agree, does in some mea
at least influence an important aspect of human behavior.
something that we should be extremely careful about, careful t
degree which was not indicated in the publicizing of books suc
the Kinsey report. I don't mean to "put any onus on Professor Ki
He certainly worked hard, and sincerely, at it, and has an impres
collection of data. But the end result is quite unfortunate.
  The second reference I would like to make is to a book writte
Stuart Chase, called The proper Study of Mankind published
1948 by Harpers . Mere is the publisher's blurb on it, which st
under a title, "How This Book Came To Be Written," and I quote
the publisher's blurb
  The story of the origin and development of the proper study of mankind
light its importance and suggests its quality. All his life Stuart Chas
been keenly interested in social problems as his many highly successful
bear witness . His growing anxiety about the state of the world and the d
mas of the atomic age was challenged some 3 years ago when he was aske
Donald Young of the Social Science Research Council and Charles Dolla
the Carnegie Corp . to undertake the preparation of a study which would
and this is in quotes-
"run a kind of chain and compass line across the whole front of the scie
devoted to human relations ."
  Then further on it says
  It (the book) was planned and developed in consultation with dozens of s
scientists in all parts of the country, and Messrs . Young and Dollard fol
the project step by step to its completion .
   So that here is an illustration of a book which was not only
result of a grant, but which directly involved members of the fou
tions, and which had their specific endorsement .
   Mr. HAYS . Dr. Hobbs, I have a couple of questions . I do
know how long you are going to be here, and I think it is impor
that we get them in . I do not know that this is any better place
perhaps later on or even earlier .
   Dr. HoBBs . Yes, Sir.
   Mr. HAYS. In view of the fact that there must be literally thousa
of professors all over the country, I am interested in how you
to be here today . Did you approach the staff or did the staff
proach you, or just how was the contact made?
  Dr. HoBBS . As I remember the sequence, I believe it was Mr. Nor
Dodd who wrote to me saying that he had read my book and was
much interested in it, and that he was going to or had ordered cop
for the research group and then later on he wrote to me saying
would be in Philadelphia, and would I meet him and have din
with him . I did . I believe it was at that time he asked or gave
a general outline of the type of thing that the committee was tr
to do and asked me if I would care to contribute to it .
  Mr. HAYS. In other words, then, the staff approached you .
did not write in asking to testify?
  Dr. HoBBS . No, no.
  Mr. HAYS . Have you ever worked on a foundation project?
   know frankly whether that was a foundation. It was working under
   the Department of State . I don't 'know whether grants were in-
   volved or 'not.
     Mr. HAYS . In other words, you were never directly involved in one
   where ou got a grant?
     Dr. HoBBS. I have received grants, yes, Sir.
     Mr. HAYS. You have received grants?
     Dr. HOBBS . Yes, Sir. At the end of the war, the Social Science Re-
  search Council had what they call demobilization awards, which were
    or the purpose of enabling people who had been in the service to
   help them to get back into the swing of things, and in a sense at
   least sort of make up for lost time . Donald Young approached me
   and said in effect, "Why don't you try for one of these awards,"
   and I did. The grant was the demobilization award for the summer
   of 1946 and the summer of 1947 . It was in the amount of $1,000 for
   each of those summers so I could work on a book.
     Mr. HAYS . What foundation was that from?
     Dr. HOBBS. The Social Science Research Council .
     Mr. HAYS . Have you ever applied to any of these foundations for
   a grant thatt has been turned down?
     Dr . HOBBS . No .
     Mr. HAYS. You have never been turned down?
     Dr . HOBBS . No, Sir.
     Mr. HAYS . I want you to get the impression, and I hope you will,
   that any questions I may ask you are not unfriendly .
     Dr . HOBBS . Surely .
     Mr. HAYS. I am just interested in some of the background here .
   Of course, I am sure you realize by this time that your appearing this
   morning and the testimony that you have given so far will get your
   name in a lot of papers and places where it has probably never been
  before.
     Dr. HOBBS . I might say that my name has been in a lot of papers
   already .
     Mr. HAYS . I am sure it has.
     Dr. HOBBS . Frankly, it does not matter too much .
     Mr. HAYS . It is going to be in all of them from this testimony
   today ; let me put it that way . That fact would not have influenced
   you in your choice of this particular book to discuss?
     Dr. HOBBS . No. Frankly, I am interested in the type of studies
   I make in teaching . To put it frankly, this is obviously an emo-
   tional strain and so on, and I am taking time off from my work .
     Mr. HAYS . I do not know whether you observed it or not but I
-think this is interesting, and I think it is interesting to you . The last
   book you mentioned, what was the name of that?
     Dr . HOBBS. If you want to, we will keep the title down .
     Mr. HAYS . No, I want the title of it .
     Dr . HOBBS . It is "Social Problems in Scientism ."
     Mr. HAYS . Not your book. Did you not just mention a book?
     Dr. HOBBS . Stuart Chase, "The Proper Study of Mankind ."
     Mr. HAYS. Did you observe that did not create much of a ripple
 :among the reporters .when you mentioned that book, but on the Kin-
 :,sey book they all made notes.
whether you are sorry or not . I certainly did notmgan ;to ,u                a
inference . I just want to point out that this is the thing that is go
to get the news. What I am getting at is, that did not influence y
to use that particular one for an illustration?
   Dr. HOBBS. No. You see, I had written two critical analyses of
Kinsey books for the Amercan Journal of Psychiatry, and they di
when they were issued, get a lot of publicity, and so on. So that
the context in which they are significant, I think .
   Mr.. HAYS . If what you say about the Kinsey Report is true, and
certainly have no reason to doubt your statements, I' think it is unfo
tunate if we have encouraged the sale of it any . But since your b
is critical of it, maybe you ought to mention the title of it again, a
maybe we might encourage the sale of it a little .
   The CHAIRXAN . I have grave doubts whether what he has sa
about the Kinsey Report today would promote the sale of it very muc
   Mr. HAYS. You would be surprised at the number of curious p
ple that will want to go and read it .
   The CHAIRMAN. You may go ahead .
   Dr. HOBBS . Yes, Sir. One question on this Proper Study of Ma
kind would be why was a man like Stuart Chase selected . Aga
I do not mean to impugn Mr . Chase, because he is an excellent writ
He is a very good popular writer .
   Mr. HAYS . Right there now, I am interested . You say why was
man like Stuart Chase selected . Who is he? Give us a little ba
ground about him .
   Dr . HOBBS . He has written numerous books which are listed on th
blurb : The Tragedy of Waste ; Your Mone 's Worth ; Men a
Machines ; The Economy of Abundance ; Rich Land, Poor Land ; I
Men, Idle Money ; Where is the Money Coming From? I thi
that would still be up to date.
   Mr. HAYS . If he wrote Where is the Money Coming From?
plagiarized former Congressman Rich . He had a copyright on th
   Dr. HOBBS . There is another one more recent than this which
reviewed for one of the journals published after the war, "For Th
We Fought," and the usual line that we were fighting for econom
gains, we were fighting for better housing and things like that.
had just come out of the service . I had not met anyone who w
fighting for a better house or anything like that . So I wonder
why a man like Stuart Chase, who has in his work definitely ind
cated his leanings toward collectivism and social planning and th
sort of thing, why he was chosen .
   Mr. HAYS. In other words, you are saying he is a sort of leftwinge
is that it?
   Dr . HOBBS. Sir, to answer that, may I cite from another bo
written by one of your colleagues, Congressman Shafer, this is t
book called "The Turning of the Tides," written by Paul W . Shaf
Congressman Shafer, I understand, and one John Howland Sno
and there is a reference in there to Stuart Chase andd several .citati
from his writings
  In 1921 the Intercollegiate Socialist Society was ready for the next organiz
tional step, and this was signalized by a change of name . The 16-year-old ISS
that year became the League for Industrial Democracy .
and not for profit."
  Under its new name, the original Intercollegiate Socialist Society
continued under the joint direction of Harry W . Laidler and Norman
Thomas. The league's first president was Robert Morse Lovett, a -
professor of literature at the University of Chicago, and an editor of
the New Republic . Charles P. Steinmetz was a vice president, and
Stuart Chase was treasurer. One of its lecturers was Paul R . Porter,
later with the ECA in Greece . The field secretary was Paul Blanshard.
In 1926 one of the directors was Louis Budenz-a man of whom you
have heard.
  Mr. HAYS . A sort of eminently respectable repentant Communist .
  Dr. HOBBS . Yes.
  Mr. HAYS. A professional witness, too, isn't he?
  Dr. HOBBS . He has appeared testifying before committees . I have
read some of the testimony.
  Mr. HAYS. I do not know whether he is one, but my good friend,
Martin Dies, was saying the other day that he had a string of Com-
munists that he could depend on any time, but television ruined all
of them .
  Dr. HoBBS . This book also refers to Stuart Chase, addressing the
department of superintendents of the National Educational Asso-
ciation, at its Atlantic City meeting on February 25, 1935, and said :
  If we have even a trace of liberalism in our natures, we must be prepared
to see an increasing amount of collectivism, Government interference, centraliza-
tion of economic control, social planning . Here again the relevant question
is not how to get rid of Government interference, but how to apply it for the
greatest good of the greatest number .
  The citation is from the National Education Association, April 25,
pages 107,110.
  In 1934 Stuart Chase declared that an abundance economy re-
quires-
the scrapping of outworn political boundaries and of constitutional checks and
balances where the issues involved are technical .
  That also is from the National Education Association Journal of
May 1934, page 147.
  Mr. HAYS . Are you a member of the National Education Asso-
ciation?
  Dr . HOBBS . No, Sir. The National Education Association is for ele-
mentary and secondary school teachers primarily . College teachers
ordinarily would not belong to it. One question here is why was Stuart
Chase chosen when his leanings were definitely known and why not
pick some other person, or if you do pick Chase, and a case could be
made for picking him by virtue of his extremely good writing talent, if
you do pick him, then you would have to be very careful that he did not
slant the material too much in ways that you would know he is likely
to. You have these two members of the foundation, Donald Young and
Charles Dollard, who presumably would tend to modify or eliminate
any leaning which . you might tend to find in the book . That did not
happen .
  Here, Sir, I will go back to the question you raised earlier about
giving the reader the impression that the physical sciences and the
  What had• . tile anthropologist, psychologist, sociologist to tell 'us' fhol t ~s
prohlems thit-waS, in any vat comparab&te *hat the phpsicist'and the itedi
ilien'had to tell us about thermodynamics and filterable viruses, laws And pri
pies and techniques which a man would rely on? So when it was -suggested
Donald Young of the Social Science Research Council and Charles Dollard'
the Carnegie Corp. that I run a kind of chain-hnd-Compass line afros$ the wh
front of the sciences -devoted to human relations, I 'was imtnedlatel3 intelbs
in connection with the deep and fundamental quest for certainty which h
troubled me for many years .
  M,y first conferences were with Young and .Dollard, who have followed
project step by step and given me invaluable help. Before act-Opting the assi
meat at all, I consulted Raymond Fosdick, who has planned and encourag
mafiy stadles in. jthe application of seience',to human relations, and he urged
to attempt it .
   Mr. HAYS . Professor, to keep this thing clear, would you identi
 Yonilg and- Dollard a little more?
    Dr. HoBBS. As identified in the book and advertising-
   Mr. HAYS . What foundations are they -with?
   Dr. HoBBs . As stated, Donald Young of the Social Science Resear
 Council, and Charles Dollard of the Carnegie Corp .
   Mr. HAYS. As I get it so far, is this Stuart Chase accused of bei
 a Communist or anything ?
   Dr. HoBBS . No, but his leanings . As I said, according to The Tur
 ing of the Tides, he was a member of the League for Industrial Demo
 cracy, which was Socialist, or at least quasi Socialist .
   Mr. HAYS . Is that on the Attorney General's list or anything?
 never heard of it .
   Dr. HoBBS . I frankly do not know whether it is or not . I am n
saying this as . a matter of subversion, but a matter of definite leani
 which was indicated in the background.
   Mr. HAYS . We cannot criticize a man for his leanings, can we?
   Dr . HOBBS. No, Sir .
   Mr. HAYS . A fellow might lean the other way, and as far as I
concerned, he has a perfect right to lean that way.
   Dr. HoBBS. Yes, sir ; but; if the leanings are known, the questio
:
arises Should' the. foundations lend' their prestige and works to fost
 those leanings in the eyes of the public or at least, the portiozi of t
public which reads books of this kind?
   Mr. HAYS . Do you suppose that the intellectual outlook of the in
dividual foundation member might have anything to . do with tha
   Dr. HoBBS . It readily could .
   Mr. HAYS . If you were a member of a board of directors of a found
tion and somebody came to you with a request for a grant to promul
gate the ideas of William McKinley, would you think that would
a worthy subject for a grant? .
   Dr. Hums . No, Sir .
   Mr. HAYS . Why? He is a fellow statesman of mine .
   Dr. HoBBS . William McKinley did not have the title of a soci
scientist .
   Mr. HAYS. 'He had a lot of ideas on social science .
   Mr. GOODWIN . He had a lot of ideas which are still pretty good, to
   Mr. HAYS . I would not want to say that he did not have any ide
that were not pretty good. I think his philosophy of politics, and th
of his manager, shall we say, to use a kind word, Mark Hanna, ha
 could campaign that 'way now . It would be better maybe for the
 candidate .
    Mr. GooDWIN. You can stop this colloquy, Doctor, if you will go
 forward.
    Mr. HAYS . Right there, I do not want you to arrogate to yourself
    ~'~right to stop me from making a speech here, Mr Goodwin .
    Mr. GoonwiN . All right, Doctor .
    Dr . HoBss. Then he . goes on to say, after having these conference%
 with Young and Dollar, and after they had requested that he do this
 work, that he went to Washington to meet a group of social scientists,
 who had been active in war work, who had influenced (and he cites :
 examples), Comdr . Alexander Leighton talked of his experiences>withh
 Japanese Americans in the Arizona desert,' and his work in Japan . .
 Others outlined their work in selecting "cloak and dagger men," for
 the OSS . In manpower analysis, economic controls for inflation, the
 selection of officers for the Army. Samuel Stauffer described how
 he felt the pulse of 10 million GI's . Actually I may interject Chase
 said 10 million. In the volume on the American soldier which he re-
 fers to here, it was a half million rather than 10 million. I repeat
 the quote, "how he felt the pulse of 10 million GI's, via the Army
studies of troop attitudes and opinion which he largely engineered."
    Then he goes on to say that "I am grateful to .J . Frederick Dew-
 burst John Dollard, John Gardner, Pendleton Herring, Ralph Lin
ton, H' . A . Murray, Talcbtt Parsons, Don X . Price, aiicl Fatal- ebbink
 for a reading of the manuscript, but I am, of course, responsible for-
the final draft."
   This book, Chase says, is an attempt to explore the possibilities of
 applying, the . scientific method which has proved so successful in prob=
lems of matter and energy to problems of human relations . The
methods in use by many statesmen today-
   Mr .Mr HAYS . Dr. Hobbs, would you mind just holding up there a
minute .
    (Discussion off the record .)
   Mrs . P.FOST. Mr. Chairman, I was going to ask you a question . Since
we are this morning investigating authors and the effect that their pub-
lications have upon the public in general and it has been alleged that
TV and radio have also been used for those purposes to a great extent,
especially by such foundations as Facts Forum that is backed, it is
alleged, by Mr. Hunt, down in Texas, I was wondering whether-
or not if such allegations are true, that we intend in these hearings to
investigate those foundations also?
   The CHAIRMAN . The preliminary study has been made of a great
number of foundations to determine the general character of their
operations and a considerable number of them will be called, and
there is no indisposition on the part of the staff, so far as I know,
for the chairman to have the represe tative of the Hunt Foundation
appear before the committee. As a matter of fact, I had a telegram
from the man who handles the Facts Forum programs stating that
they, would like to appear.
   Mr . HAYS . In that connection, we discussed yesterday, Mr . Worm-
ser, about getting a series of their scripts of their radio program.
   Mr. Kocri . Yes, we are going to get them for you .
whether the staff had done anything at all. I want to make it cl
as long as they bring in people on their television show and make
perfectly clear this is John Doe and Richard Roe or somebody e
and that what he says is his opinion, that is one thing ; I have no
j ection to that.
   These, are a. lot _of programs that do that, and a lot of people t
think they are all right, and some they think are not . That is Am
ica . The program I am interested in is where they purport to g
both side of the thing themselves. One man 'says I, will give you
pros and cons . The radio_ program is what I am particularly int
ested in, and those are the scripts I want to get hold of .
   Mr. WoEMSER. You want to see the scripts before we bring them
   Mr. HAYS . Definitely .
   The CHAIRMAN . The committee will stand in recess until 2 o'c
this afternoon in this same room .
   (Thereupon at 11 : 55 a. m ., a recess was taken until 2 p. m .,
same day.)
                             Ar°1JRNOON SESSION
  The CHAIRMAN . The committee will come to order .
  Professor Hobbs, you may proceed.
  TESTIMONY OF DR. A. H . HOBBS, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR O
    SOCIOLOGY, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA-Resumed
  The CHAIRMAN. The oath that was administered earlier is c
tinued.
  Dr. HOBBS. I should like to go back and complete a quotation wh
I started this morning . Another quotation which I am quoting
illustrate-
  The CHAIRMAN . Professor, will you please keep in mind that we
not have the amplifiers this afternoon?
  Dr. HOBBS . Yes, Sir .
  This is another quotation which is designed to show the attempt
identify social science as being identical or at least very similar
physical science. I quote from Stuart Chase again
  This book is an attempt to explore the possibility of applying the scient
method which has proved so successful in problems of matter and energy to
problems of human relations. The methods in use by many leaders and sta
men today leave something to be desired . Are there any more dependable
to promote well-being and survival?
  The implication there is that through this ;scientific method you
supplant or at least add to the methods' used by statesmen .
  Another quotation to the same effect
  Social science might be defined on a high level as the application of the sc
tific method to the study of human relations . What do we know about th
relations that is dependable? The "wisdom of the ages" obviously is not g
enough as the state of the postwar world bears eloquent witness .
  Another one to the same effect
  The scientific method does not tell us how things ought to behave but how
do behave. Clearly, there is no reason why the method should not be applie
the behavior of men as well as to the behavior of electrons .
  There are social experiments and physical experiments, and the scientific
method can be used most advantageously in both .
   I would like to interject again, there' are social experiments and
there are physical . experiments, but I would like to point out in the
physical experiments you are • dealing with electrons and things of
that type. With the social, experiments you are dealing with human
beings and it makes quite a different situation .
  On the level we are-discussing, there is no difference between social science
and natural science . On : this level, we define social science once more as the use
of the scientific method to solve the questions of human relations . Science-
and the word "science" is in quotes-
goes with the method, not with the subject matter.
   I wanted to establish that in . Mr. Chase's book, which was sponsored
and in which he was assisted by members of the foundations, the
definite implication was made repeatedly to give the readers the
impression that there was no substantial difference between social
science and natural science . As for the ideas in this book, I would say
further that there is not a balanced presentation of ideas .
   There is, for example, stress on cultural ' determinism. Cultural
determinism is the notion which is fostered in much of social science
that what you do, what you are, what you believe, is determined by the
culture. The implication of that is that man is essentially a puppet of
the culture. A further implication would be since he is a puppet he is
to be given neither blame nor credit for what he does .
   I cite these things to indicate how these ideas can spread out and
have very significant implications .
   Mr. Chase stresses the cultural concept throughout the book . I will
just cite l or 2 instances of this :
  Finally, the culture concept gives us hope that many of our problems can be
so}ved.. If people are bad by virtue of their "blood," or their genes or their
innate characters, there would not be much we could do about it, but if people
are basically all right, and the problem lies primarily in an adjustment of culture
patterns, or to culture patterns, perhaps a great deal can be done about it .
   That is, you get the idea that by manipulating society, you can
change not only the society, but change the people within the society .
This is the concept of cultural determinism . It has been fostered
primarily by a number of cultural anthropologists . The most in-
fluential book in this area is Ruth Benedict's Patterns of Culture .
   Mr. HAYS . Doctor, do you think there is no validity whatsoever in
that theory?
   Dr. Hosss. Sir, it is not a matter of there being no validity what-
soever. It is a matter of a theory of this type being presented to the
public with the weight of the foundations behind it, as though it were
the scientifically proved fact . In that context, it is not correct .
   Mr. HAYS . But I am not so sure that anyone reading those para-
graphs that you have read would get that implication . I don't think
that I would if I were directed into it . I mean, let's use a more simple
example :' Say a couple with an infant were in the jungles of Africa,
somewhere, and something happened and the father and mother were
killed, and this child was bi6ught up by an uncivilized tribe . It
   Dr . HOBBS . Sir, we have had those examples in- social-science text
books for many, many years. Children purportedly-and these a
offered, too, as scientific evidence-purportedly raised by wolves, pur
portedly raised by swine, and you may remember the Gazelle Boy
   Mr. HAYS. Let's not change my example .
   Dr. HOBBS . Would the culture affect him?
   Mr. HAYS . What was that?
   Dr. HOBBS . Is the question, "Does, the culture affect, you?"
   The answer is obviously, "Yes ." The question is not, "Does thecul
                                           .
ture affect you?" however, the question is, "Does the culture determi
without you having any control over that determination ; your beha
ior, your attitudes, your ideals, . your. Sentiments,, your. beliefs?," It,
the difference, sir, between the culture affecting you, which it certain
does, that is obvious, and the question : "Does culture determine yo
behavior?"
  Mr. HAYS . In other words, we are talking about a degree.
  Dr. HOBBS. A matter of degree ; yes, sir .
  Mr. HAYS . Well, I don't know whether we can ever determine Any
thing much there or not . As you said earlier, you might' argue unt
doomsday about the degree of it .
  Dr. HOBBS . Yes, Sir. But this is cultural determinism . The con
text of the Chase book is cultural determinism,, not cultural influenc
  The CHAIRMAN . However, from the list of books which you read
which have been sponsored by- foundations and some members. of t
foundation staffs had collaborated on the books, I rather gathered th
impression that possibly the preponderance of the books . which ha
been sponsored and curried by the foundations, were promulgating th
theory along the lines that you have advanced here.
  Dr . HOBBS . The ones which have been most highly publicized an
pushed stronger than the others .
  Now and again, you will find publications of the found tions .on t
other side. But they are ones that are, few-not necessarily few, bu
so far as the public is concerned they do not come in contact with thos
  Mr. HAYS. Going back to the chairman's statement, he said that o
all the books whose titles you have read-as I followed you ver
intently, you have just discussed two books ; is that, correct'?
  Dr. HOBBS . Yes, Sir. I have taken up two .volumes o f . 1(inscy, an
this Chase book.
  Mr. HAYS . Actually 2, volumes I and II, of Kinsey, and 1.
another author .
  Dr . HOBBS . Yes, Sir.
  Mr. DAYS . And all two of them do what the chairman said .
  Dr. HOBBS. Yes,' Sir. These ones that I have taken up; yes, sir.
  I may have misunderstood your question .
  The CHAIRMAN . I was thinking you had referred to, another,, tha
you made a summary statement in the very beginning and referred t
some other books . .
  Dr. HOBBS. I will, yes, sir, refer to another book which was actuall
four volumes.
  The CHAIRMAN. Very well . You may proceed .
years,
sters.
   If I may interject again, you see it is stronger, merely, than cul-
tural influence . It is the idea that you can take over society bychang--
in~ ~the culture, change the entire society and the people in it.
   Mr. HAYS . Don't you think you can do that to a significant extent
   Dr. HOBBS . . George Orwell in a book called 1984 described how it,
could- be done.
   Mr. HAYS. Let's 'not talk about anything theoretical that he says
could be done. Let's take the period from 1933 to 1945, we will say,
That is only 12 years. A fellow by the name of Hitler pretty signifiz
cantly changed the whole German concept of civilization, did he not,
or did he?
   Dr. HOBBS . It definitely was in that direction . But I would say
a more nearly apt analogy even than the Hitler one would be the Rus-
sian One, where they have deliberately, apparently, used these tech-
niques, these same techniques to change the minds, to brainwash,
create the ideas and sentiments in their people .'
   Mr. HAYS . I agree with you about the Russian - one.
   Dr.` IFIOBBS . Yes, Sir.
   Mr. HAYS . The reason I used Hitler was because he did a job in a
lesser amount of time, even, than the Russians did . Prior to 1933
he was considered to be more or less a clown and a boob, and so on,
whoever you happened to be talking to you heard, "He isn't going to
amount to anything." And certainly by , legal means, of course, legal
German means, he became the head of the state And almost overnight
you, had the Hitler Youth and all of those, and you bad' a militant con-
cept built up there that Germany was to, rule the world, and, you
had all of these youngsters brainwashed and believing it as the $11s
sians are doing with theirs .
   Dr, HOBBS: 'It definitely was in that direction . But I would say
that the Russians,, and now they passed' it on to the,Clhinese, have .de-
veloped~ these tchriiques to a rough, more efective level. It,, again,
is a matter of degree, but I think they developed them,to a very highly
effective levels
   Mr HAYS Well I wouldn't want to argue that point with you I
don't know whether their techniques . are more effective than Hitler's,
or not. To met as far as I am personally concerned, and this predate„
this investigation by a good many years-as a matter of fact, I was
a little bit unpopular back in the early 1940's, when I said that
t o me there' was no difference between Stalin and Hitler and -their .
philosophies except` the difference, perhaps, in title. One of them .
called it, National Socialism and the other called it, communism.
But their aims and ultimate objectives and ultimate conclusions were
about 'identical . I mean, they did, about the same things to the
people who lived under them and to he people they conquered .
   Dr. HOBBS . Personally, I feel that the Communists have more,
effective techniques . The techniques are along these social, science ,
lines, so called.
  Mr. HAYS . They have had a longer time to develop them .
  Dr. HoBBs . They have done within their context pretty well .
         49'720-54-pt. 1	10
of other countries can be cited, also, it gives cause for concern
assume that is the basis of the concern which you are expressi
   Dr..Dr HOBBS . Yes, sir ; exactly .
   The CHAIRMAN . Of what you fear is going on as a result of y
observations that you have made.
   Dr. Hums. It is definitely along those lines ; yes, sir.
   Mr. HAYS . Are you connecting this book, then, definitely with
Communist concept of brainwashing and saying that is happen
here?
   Dr . HOBBS . In some of these techniques, particularly the psyc
analytic technique, there are disturbing similarities in the appro
which if you read for example a book by Edward Hunter, Brai
washing in Red China, you find a series of disturbing similarit
between the situation-not the situation as it exists now-but
direction we seem to be going in .
  Mr. HAYS . Are you disturbed at all by the brainwashing that Sec
tary Stevens got for 14 days, and do you see any similarity to t
thing?
  Dr. HOBBS. I would say there is certainly a difference in the te
nique and the finesse .
  Mr. HAYS. I will go along with the finesse . But I can't say tha
see much difference in the technique.
  Dr. HOBBS (reading)
  But such a theory assumes that parents, nurses, teachers, have all been ree
cated themselves, ready for the inculcating task which, as Euclid used to s
is absurd . . But it helps, I think, to know that the trouble does not all c
from an erring and variant human nature ; it comes mostly from cult
patterns, built into the plastic human nervous system .
  He goes on with the heading
  Prepare now for a surprising universal. Individual talent is too; sporadic
unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization of soc
Social systems which endure are built on the average person who can be trai
to occupy any position adequately if not brilliantly .
   All of this, of course, goes back to Pavlov's dog, which he con
tioned and then describhis theory of conditioned reflexes . Th
 it leads into John B . Watson's theories of behaviorism, which w
popular in the 1920's, which lead mothers to raise their children o
stopwatch schedule, afraid to pick their babies up if they cried. T
was the science of that time .
   Mr. HAYS . Doctor, right there I want to agree with you about t
I remember that era pretty well . And I suppose that had Congr
been so unoccupied at that time that it did not have anything bett
to do, it could have investigated that thing in the 1920's, but we so
of outgrew it, didn't we? I mean, we got over it . I mean, I li
through it and you lived through it, I guess . I didn't mean that
be funny. I am assuming you are old enough to have lived through
   Dr. HOBBS . Sure.
   The CHAIRMAN. May I interject?
   Mr. HAYS . Surely, go ahead .
   The CHAIRMAN . It isn't the mere fact that this occurs, if it d
occur, that disturbs me, but it is the fact that the foundations,
 the Government, the people who pay, the taxes, have foregone taxes
.on that income. That is, in effect, Government .money. „ And it isn't
 the fact that a large percentage of the income of these foundations
  might be used to promote a certain ideology or certain line of culture
,or certain line of thinking which leads to the result which you have
 discussed in your exchange with Congressman Hays, but if .any con-
;.siderable amount of the funds of the foundations accumulated as a
  result of the sacrifices of the people should be used to that end, that,
  to me, is disturbing. As I understand it, that is one of the purposes
  of the committee, to find out whether that is being done, and the extent
 to which it is being done .
     To my mind it is a very, very serious' question. At the rate which
  the foundations have multiplied in the last few years as a result of our
 tax, not only our tax structure but the size of our tax levies, it is only
  reasonable to assume, looking only a very short way into the future,
 that a very substantial part of the wealth of the United States is going
 to be found in these tax-exempt foundations. Therefore, the public
  has an increasingly great interest, not only in the mere establishment
 of the taxation, but more importantly in its responsibility to see that
  the money from the foundations is not used for a purpose that is vio-
  lative of the principles of government in which we believe and in
 -which the Government itself devotes its interests in maintaining .
     That isn't a question, it is just more or less expatiating, I presume,
 giving the basis for my interest and concern in this question .
    Mr . HAYS . Is that the end of your statement?
     The CHAIRMAN. That is the end for the time being. You may pro-
 ceed if there are no other comments .
    Mr. HAYS. Let me say this, that of course the public has a right
  to know what is being done with this tax-exempt money, but it seems
  to ine,,to use an old' saying that is'~extant in my section of the country,
  that maybe we should . not try to make a mountain' ,out ~.~,of a . Molehill
    As h;r~ecall Mr. Jbbdd3, testimony, : and I could not fend the exact
  quotation in a hurry so I hesitate to use a figure, but I think he said
  something like 80 percent-or at least in excess of that-of 'these
  foundations had done grand work and that 90 percent of them had
  devoted practically all of their resources to cancer research and to
  various things like that .
    If you will permit me to digress here, one of the people in the world
  that I have never been very fond of is Mr . Bevan, the former Health
  Minister of Great Britain ; but I never have forgotten a thing that he
 said to a member , of a -congressional committee who. was querying him
  in London one time. I happened to be there not as a member of
  the committee but as a guest.
    They were talking about the British health scheme, or he was, and
  this member from the Midwest said, "Well, Mr . Minister, are the
  British people thoroughly satisfied with this health scheme?" and
  Mr. Bevan very quickly replied, "Until such time as medical science
  is able to confer immortality upon mankind, they will never be satis-
  fied with any health plan."
    That illustrates what I am driving at . Until such time as human
  beings become perfect, if we accept the doctor's premise that this par-
  ticular book is' bad and money should never have been granted, that is
 mistakes and you cannot expect them to channel all of their fun
 into projects which would be approved, shall we say, by the Chica
 Tribune or somebody who believes along that line. There are liable   -
 be differences about it .
   Mrs. PFOST. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask Dr . Hobbs what
 thinks the percentage of money coming from foundations that is goi
 into the type of books that you are speaking about, in comparison
 the other extreme .
   Dr. HoBBS . I would not know.
   Mrs . PFasT. You have no idea?
   -Dr. HoBBs. No.
   Mrs . PrOST. In other words, you are simply basing your testimo
 entirely upon two or three books that have been furthered, that t
 research has been paid for, by the foundations, and you'are centeri
 your testimony entirely upon that?
   Dr. HOBBS . Yes. But it is more, I think more important than tha
 in that these are the books, and these types of books are the ones whic
 reach a much wider audience than the vast majority of works spo
 sored and published by the foundations, that these are in a sense t
-crucial ones, and these; with few, if any exceptions, these cruci
 ones; are all in the same general direction .
   So it is not a matter of counting the number of publications, nor
.it even a matter of finding the percentage of money spent on one
 the other. The issue, as I am trying to frame it here, is in what are
 is the public most widely and significantly influenced by foundatio
 su ported workk in the social sciences?
       . HAYS. I was just going to ask you in view of the last stat
 ment, is there some reason why this type of books get wider circul
 tion?
   Dr. Hoims .' Well, to answer in terms of the Kinsey report, the
 is an obvious reason. Sex is interesting. The proper study of ma
 kind, Stuart Chase's book--your question would be : "Why would th
 get more publicity and more circulation than most other studies?" .
   Well, Stuart Chase is an excellent writer and it was highly publ
 cized as being backed by the foundations and so on. It was put i
 the area of a trade book rather than of a specific piece of research .
   Mr. HAYS . What is the title of your volume?
   Dr. Horns. Social Problems and Scientism .
   Mr. HATS. Social Problems and Scientism?
   Dr. HoBBS . Yes, Sir .
   Mr. HAYS Now, suppose the average man walks into a bookstore, an
 I guess not many of them do any more since television, not as ma
 perhaps as we would like to have, and he sees two books on the shelve
 one of them'is Social Problems and Scientism and the other is Sexu
 Behavior' of the Human Male, and he happens to pick' up the latt
 one . Do you attach any special significance to that?
   Dr. HoBBS. I would say it would be most unusual if he would' mak
the other choice.
   Mr. HAYS . I think that is a good answer . I think you and I 'ar
 in perfect agreement.
   In other words, if what you wanted to do primarily in your book
 and I am not sureit wasn't, I am trying not to put you in a bad'ligh
.found some other' title, would you not?
   Dr . HOBBS . If I wanted to popularize it?
   Mr. HAYS . Yes .
   Dr. HoBBS . Of course I would have given it a popular title, some-
thing that sounded good..
   Mr. HAYS . And that might have more to do with reaching a wider
audience than any other one thing, than the contents of it ever would ;
wouldn't it?
   Dr. HoaBS . Of course, on some books the title has an appreciable
influence on the sales, I would guess.
   Mr. HAYS. I wouldn't say I would approve of that, but I would
think from what little knowledge I have of the book-selling business it
is that they do deliberately set out to get eyecatching titles to sell the
books .
   Dr. HoBBS . I would think so .
   Mr. HAYs . And if the people are influenced by that and they don't
like the book, well they have made a bad investment.
   The CHAIRMAN . I won't want to take additional time, but in regard
to the mountain and the molehill, we can do something about the
molehills, but sometimes it becomes very difficult to do anything
about the mountain . The illustration that you earlier gave, in Ger-
many it was the molehill, was disregarded .
   Mr. HAYS . I don't agree with that at all. I say it was a mountain .
   The CHAIRMAN But it was not so recognized .
   Mr. HAYS . I recognized it as such . Maybe I was alone, but I
thought so.
   The CHAIRMAN . But the people there did not . But where we see
defects, it would seem to me that it would be our responsibility to
cure them.
   Mrs . Pfost, your observation was very pertinent, but down home
on the farm we make a great deal of cider . And one thing that we
are always very careful about is picking all the bad apples before they
                                                          be
are run through the cider mill because there might - only a very
small percentage of bad apples run through that taints and has a
tendency to destroy the whole product . I think in the course of some
of these studies, it isn't the fact that the preponderance of the money
is spent along certain lines, but it is that a sufficient amount is spent,
and effectively so, so as to propagate a particular line of thinking
that might be detrimental to the interests of our Government . But
still we are just kind of discussing it among ourselves here, and I
am willing to forego, after you make your observations.
   Mr. HAYS . I think it is interesting. Out home in the cider season
they pick out the wormy apples if they have time, but if they get
rushed, they throw them all in and people buy it just the same . But
I just wonder if you are insinuating that this bad book, or at least
we will call it that, that the professor is talking about, could taint his
book . It couldn't, could it?
   The CHAIRMAN . I don't think it could taint his book but I could
think where it might spoil it in such a way as to reduce the interest in
a sound way .
   Mr. HAYS . Then we better investigate the publisher .
   The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed .
ing 1~of2•thin :Either°that nazism: wasa molehill' or that thepeop
                   :
did mot recognize it for *hat it was . Which is it?
  The CHAIRMAN . In the very beginning they did not recognize it fo
what it was, I think . They waited too long.
  Mr. HAYS. Yes. Well, you and I are agreeing . And when they di
recognize it for what it was, it had become a mountain then .
  The CHAIRMAN . Yes. I was expressing agreement with your li
of thinking. I was just developing it a little more.
  Mr . WoRMSER . Mr. Chairman, may I suggest to Dr . Hobbs that
think he ought to make clear, which I believe is the fact, that
does not intend merely to discuss 3 or 4 books as the only books i
this area which have any unpleasant connotation to him . What he i
really doing is giving them as illustrations, perhaps particular
sharp illustrations, of the use of what he calls scientism and its pro-
motion by foundations. Please answer this yourself, Dr . Hobbs, b
isn't your main thesis that what you call scientism widely promote
by foundations and that in itself has a deleterious effect on society
  Dr . HOBBS . The thesis is not in the book in relation to the found
tions specifically, but I would say that, speaking in general terms, th
thing which I call scientism is promoted in an appreciable measur
by the foundations. And scientism has been described as a point o
view, an idea, that science can solve all of the problems of mankind',
that it can take the place of traditions, beliefs, religion, and it i
in the direction of that type of thing that so much of the materia
in the social sciences is pointed . I am not saying that we have reach
that, or that many would come out blatantly and say that now that ca
or should be done . But it seems to me, and I may be wrong, but it do
seem to me that we are going in that direction, and it is time th
we might take a little stock of it .
  Mr. HAYS . How many copies of this particular book do you suppos
have ever been sold?
  Dr. HOBBS . Which book is that?
  Mr. HAYS. The one by Stuart Chase that you are quoting from .
  Dr. HoBBS . I don't know the sales . It was widely reviewed and ad
vertised, publicized extensively, but sales figures I don't have .
  Mr. HAYS. Would you be remotely acquainted at all with the wor
of Mickey Spillane?
  Dr. HOBBS. Yes, Sir ; I am.
  Mr. HAYS . Do you think Stuart Chase or Mickey Spillane has do
more damage to America?
  Dr . HOBBS . That is in another area.
  Mr. HAYS. Well, of course, any other book except this one woul
probably be in a little different area .
  Dr. HOBBS. No ; I am confining this to the influence of social scienc
Mr. Spillane, I think, does not pretend to be a social scientist .
  Mr. HAYS . I don't know what he pretends to be ; but I would s
that he is having some sort of an effect on social science, at least o
social behavior, and even perhaps a . more serious effect than Chase
having, and I wouldn't be surprised that he has had as much effe
or more than Kinsey, because I expect more people have read hi
books .
  Dr. HOBBS. I expect they have .
distributed.
   Dr. HOBBS. That;may-be . The context~in which I plascethis, o t h,
is in the influence of science or social science on these things . For
example, a novel by Philip Wylie called Opus 21 came out, based ;
in large measure on the Kinsey findings, and the theme, briefly, was
in outline that the protagonist of the novel meets a girl who is sitting
in a New York saloon, sitting there reading the Kinsey book . And
the protagonist-
  Mr . HAYS . That is definitely fiction, is it not?
   Dr . HOBBS. Yes, Sir. The protagonist tries to find out what is on her
mind
  Mr. HAYS . I would say they had stupid characters in that book .
I mean,. you have painted a picture there . He wouldn't have to try to .
very hard, would he?
  Dr . HOBBS. Then the theme develops that what happened, was that
she found out that her husband was homosexual, and she had left
him because he was homosexual . Then throughout the remainder
of the book this protagonist is explaining to her that science, in this
case Kinsey, has proved that homosexuality is normal and that she
is the abnormal one for leaving him. And finally the protagonist
convinces her of this, so whereupon she forms a homosexual alliance
herself and returns to her homosexual husband and presumably they
live happily ever after . It is in this way that what starts out as
being science or social science spreads out into popular literature :
  Mr. HAYS. Would you mind telling me how you came to read that
book?
  Dr. HoBBS . I forget the exact circumstances . I read pretty widely ..
I read a lot of books .
  Mr. HAYS . I was wondering if it was in connection with the research
on Kinsey . I am not being a bit facetious when I say this-maybe I am
too conservative and too archaic and too far behind the times, but
I cannot imagine very many people wasting their time to read that
kind of stuff .
  Dr. Hums. If I may continue, the cultural deterministic theme is
then tied in with the cultural lag, the cultural lag hypothesis, and
briefly the cultural lag hypothesis is that the technology has advanced°
very greatly, but that our ideas, our beliefs, our traditions, have not
kept pace with it . Therefore, there is a lag between the technological
advance and the culture, and the implication is that the beliefs, ideas,
sentiments and so on, about the family, the church, about government,
should be brought up to date with the technology, which superficially
sounds reasonable enough, except when you begin to analyze it it really
settles down to being in the first place, a nonscientific notion, because
two things being compared are not commensurable, that is, they have,
not been reduced to any common denominator by which you can
measure the relative rates of change in between them .
  Mr. HAYS. I hate to keep interrupting you here, but I can't help
wondering about one thing, and I would like to know the answer, if
there is any way of knowing it. We are spending a lot of time on the
book of Mr . Chase, and I would like to know how widely that thing :
was printed and circulated .
many thousands or hundreds or millions of copies of it there were'?
   Mr. WoRnrsiR . ' I can find out for you, 'sir.
   Mr. HAYS . People in this audience are probably all :people who
interested in' this, or they would not be here . I wonder if anyo
in the room has read it besides Dr . Hobbs. I never heard of it un
this morning.
   The CHAIRMAN. In addition to the circulation of the book, am
'right that earlier you referred to other publications that quoted
cerpts, pertinent excerpts, from the book, in advancing certa
thoughts?
   Dr . HOBBS. I don't believe, sir, that I did relate to that, no, Sir .
   Mr. HAYS . You might have mentioned book reviews, or reviews
,say the New York Times book magazine, or something . Proba
there was one, I suppose, was there not?
   Dr. HOBBS . Yes, Sir.
   Mr. HAYS . But unless you were specifically interested in either
Chase or the subject, you probably wouldn't even read that .
   Dr . HonBs . Or : the foundations, sir.
   Mr. HAYS . Yes.
   Dr . HoBBS . Then this cultural lag notion has the implication t
we should keep religion up to date, and patriotic sentiments, ide
about marriage and the family .
   Well, if you do this, of course by implication to take an extre
illustration, then you would have to modify your religion every ti
there was a significant technological change with automobiles or ai
planes, things of that sort, which would give you of course a gre
deal of lack of permanence.
   The cultural lag theory has appeared in many if not most of
sociology textbooks with the implication that we should abandon t
traditional formss of belief about the family and religion . Inesca
bly that tends to be the implication . The way Stuart Chase puts
  The cultural concept dissolves old ideologies and eternal varities bit gives
something more solid to stand on, or so it seems to me . Prediction takes sha
the door to the future opens, and light comes through . Not much yet, but eno
to shrivel many intellectual quacks, oververbalized seers and theorists, wh
theories cannot be verified .
   At the very time he ~ talking about a theory which cannot be ve
fied . Then I will just mention one thing that is stressed in Mr, Chas
book, and that is the belief is stressed that the polls, opinion polls,
been scientifically verified and that they could 'and should be used
the general public.
   Mr. HAYS . Doctor, right there a lot of people have tried to sell t
idea before . I remember a magazine one time that had a wide circ
lation predicated on the belief that its poll was exact . I think
name of it was Literary Digest.
   Dr. HoBBS . Yes, Sir.
   Mr. HAYS. It died a very abrupt death after 1936 .
   Dr. HoBBS . The significance here, sir, is that this opinion and bel
did not die. Because it still has the prestige of science to verify it
   Mr. HAYS. You mean in the validity of polls?
   Dr. HoBBS . Yes, Sir .
   Mr. HAYS . I don't agree with that . I don't take too much stock
polls. I vividly remember the Gallup mistake in 1948 .
something you could never doubt for a minute and I don't think very
many other people will .
  Dr. HOBBs. The point I am trying to make, sir, is that with the pres-
tige of science behind a thing like polling, you could get to the point
where they would be substituted for elections and things like that . Mr.
Chase cites examples of that tendency in a highly approving fashion .
This was written just prior to the election results of 1948 . Just sup-
pose for a minute that we had accepted this so-called science and aban-
doned the election of 1948 and taken the word of the pollsters .
  Mr . HAYS . As long as you have skeptics like me, it would never do
that. I refuse to accept the validity of the Gallup poll, and that is
why I am here today . I came down here in the 1948 Dewey landslide .
  Dr. HOBBS . Suppose it had been based on a poll instead of an elec-
tion. The results might be quite different .
  Mr. HAYS . I think you are predicating something there on a fool-
ish assumption . I don't think we will ever substitute polls for elec-
tions . At least, you will never get the politicians to agree .
  Dr. HoBBS . Mr . Chase cites the desirability of this polling tech-
nique and illustrations of where it is being used by another social
scientist, who also wrote a book along the same lines, George Lun-
berg-Can Science Save Us?-and cites Lunberg as using the polls
in actual practice . He quotes here
  There is no limit to the future of the technique-
  That is the polling technique-
on this front.
   That is, measuring political attitudes and beliefs .
  Mr. HAYS. He apparently never heard about this fellow who ran
for sheriff. Is that in your State, Mr . Reece? He said he shook 9,000
hands, kissed two hundred-and-some babies, traveled 9,000 miles and
got only 243 votes. His poll didn't turn out so well . He thought he
was going to win .
  Dr. HoBas . The difference in all of this is that these are presented
as being scientific and the prestige of science is that there is more of
a tendency to accept these than to accept other techniques . [Reading :]
  Then, as the elections of 1948 changed the conclusions to be drawn from the-
foregoing two chapters, clearly Presidential polling is no exact science .
   That is, the results have come out and conflicted with the results of
especially the Gallup and Roper polls. So Mr. Chase had to back up, .
backpeddle quite a bit on this .
   Mr. HAYS. At least, we give him credit for admitting he was wrong
   Dr . HOBBS. He could do little else at that point . It was such a
fiasco
  Does 1948 wrong prediction mean the downfall of the present elections as the
downfall in 1936 caused the downfall of the Literary Digest? Does it mean
as some critics declare that sampling theory itself is suspect and science can
never be applied to human affairs? Certainly not-
  He answers his own question-
.One error
         or a hundred errors cannot invalidate the scientific, method .
  and emphasize, is not scientific, will , and can, no matter what t
  errors are, no matter what the mistakes are, will be foisted, pushed
  the public scene, whereas with the Literary Digest you gage it in
  -terms of commercial appeal, and after the failure in 1936, it folds
  .as a magazine . But this type of thing continues . It not only co
  tinues but it expands .
     Mr. HAYS . There was one difference between Dr. Gallup's mista
 'and the Literary Digest, wasn't there? Dr . Gallup made a slight mi
- take of a-'few percentage points, but they had Landon winni
  by 36 or 40 States, whereas he actually carried only 2 .
     Dr. HOBBS . His percentage figures are a matter of statistical mani
  ulation . I could go into that in some detail. The actual error
 .appreciably greater than you would be led to believe by the stat
  ments of Dr . Gallup. But that would be a statistical matter whi
  is not particularly germane . In this book, in summary, you ha
 -throughout it, among otherr things, this characteristic emphasis
  cultural determinism, cultural relativity, the idea that if you fin
  primitive group which permits wife lending, then, by implicatio
 that is all right for us, too, and emphasis on Kinsey throughout t
 "book as having now discovered the scientific facts about sex, 'and
 --emphasis on cultural lag that we should jettison older beliefs a
  bring all our beliefs up to the latest advances in technology .
     In one section in the book, you do get a balanced presentation . Th
  is the section dealing with economics. Mr. Chase knows the field
  economics much more, much better, than he knows these other fiel
  So when it came to economics, there he admitted that economics w
  not a science, and he cited, as I recall it, 155 erroneous, seriously erron
 ious, economic predictions to show that economics was not a scienc
 My feeling in reading the book was this, that if Mr . Chase knew th
  about his own field, and if he were relying as he says he was, and
 the book indicates, if he were relying on these experts from the founda
 tions for the other areas, why didn't they warn him of the limitatio
  in these other fields, sociology, anthropology, and so on, in the sa
  way in which he himself knew of the limitations in economics .
     It was certainly their responsibility, it would seem to me, to ha
  emphasized these limitations rather than tog~ ve Mr . Chase the i
  pression, and through him many other people the impression, th
 these areas-are really scientific in the sense in which the term appli
 in physical science . The next and final book which I want to cite
  actually in four volumes . The title is The American Soldier,
 subtitle is Studies in Social Psychology in World War Two . It w
 prepared and edited under the auspices of a special committee of th
 'Social Science Research Council, published by the Princeton Un
 versity Press in 1949 and 1950 . I will give you some of the bac
 ground of this.
    In this, I want to cite it as an illustration of the influence of su
 posed social science on military policy at a high level and, furthe
 more, that this influence was, according to the book itself which
 remember, was written by persons favorable to the effects which th
-social scientist brought about . Even in this type of presentatio
 there is a definite and repeated evidence that the military, with wha
turned out to be excellent reasons, struggled against this thing rig
significance against the opposition of the military of the United States .
  .Mr . HAYS. What did they do against the will of the military?
   Dr . HOBBS . Well, may I develop it? I will bring that out, what
seems to me to be the crucial point here .
   The Research Branch was officially established in October 1941,
within what was known, successively, as the Morale Division, Special
:Services Division, and Information and Education Division . Here
is one of the indications of the resistance of the military in purely mili-
tary matters. Earlier efforts to set up such machinery within the
Army had been blocked by a directive from the Secretary of War,
which said
   Our Army must be a cohesive unit, with a definite purpose shared by all . Such
an Army can be built only by the responsible effort of all of its members, com-
missioned and enlisted . An anonymous opinion, or criticism, good or bad, is
destructive in its effect on a military organization, where accepted responsibility
on the part of every individual is fundamental . It is therefore directed that
because of their anonymous nature, polls will not be permitted among the per-
sonnel of the Army of the United States .
   Mr. HAYS . Does that make it right because the Secretary said that?
   Dr. HOBBS . No, sir. It does not make it wrong, either .
  Mr. HAYS. One time he issued a letter that a soldier could not write
a letter to his Congressman. But the Congress sort of changed his
mind about that . I would say from my experience with the Army,
it is very difficult to inculcate them with any idea . They resist any-
thing in the way of change . They resisted the use of air power .
  You will remember they made one man in this country die of a
broken heart . Of course, he was right all along . The Navy right now
is resisting the abandoning of battleships . Of course, they are nice
ships, I have been on them and all of that, but they don't have much
value any more in war. But they are still using them . The very
fact that the Army resisted them does not mean much to me. I do
not know what they resisted, but whatever it was that is their usual
procedure.
  Dr. HoBBS . May I please develop this point ?
   The full story of how the War Department changed from a position of flat
opposition to such research to one in which it would use such research not only
-for internalplanning but as justification to the American people for such a vital
 program as its demobilization system should someday make instructive reading .
   That is a quote from volume 1 of the American Soldier . I would
say it certainly should make interesting reading .
   Many factors converge to make possible the establishment of the Research
Branch, not the least of which was the character and personality of the new
Director of the Morale Division, directly commissioned from civilian life, Brig .
Gen . Frederick H . Osborne, later major general . He was a businessman who
was also the author of two volumes on social science . In spite of General
Osborne's personal prestige, his persuasive skill, which had served him so well
in business, and his deep sincerity, there were times when even these assets
might have availed little against occasional opposition at intermediate echelons,
had not General Marshall unequivocably, supported the strange, new program .
  Mr. HAYS . Doctor, I think before you start accusing General Mar-
shall or anybody else
  Dr. HOBBS . I have accused General Marshall of nothing, sir, I have
quoted from the book .
  Dr. HoBBS . That is what they term it, not me.
  Mr. HAYS . What is it?
  Dr. HOBBS. It was a program of taking opinion polls to determi
military decisions .
  Mr. HAYS. Do you mean the last war was run on opinion polls?
  Dr. HoBBS. It would have been run to. a much greater degree.
  Mr. HAYS . I think Eisenhower ought to resign, then, :because I th
he got elected on the grounds that he ran the war . He made h
reputation on that. If it was run on polls, then we have been und
a lot of misapprehension.
  Dr. HoBR,9. I quote again from the book
  A major purpose of the research staff was to provide a basis of fact
knowledge.
  I will interject . When they say "factual knowledge," they me
knowledge based upon opinion polls, which are much more fallaci
than political polls, which involve merely the choice of a candida
  Factual knowledge which would help the director of the Army Information
Education Division in his administrative and policy decisions. This purp
was abundantly fulfilled . Without research, we would have too often been wo
ing in the dark. With research, we knew our course and were able to def
it before Congress and the press . Further, we made a remarkable discove
The Army gave little weight to our personal opinions, but when these opini
were supported by factual studies-
and, again, if I may interject, these are not factual studies, they a
opinion studies-
the Army took them seriously-
and here, again, you get the influence which, in some cases, may
good, but in other cases could be very disastrous due to the aura
science which surrounds this type of investigation .
  For the first time on such a scale, the attempt to direct human behavior w
in part, at least, based on scientific evidence . If this method could be develo
and more widely used, it might provide further impetus for a great advan
in the social relations of man . To that hope, these volumes are dedicat
   The main thing, these polls went into many, many aspects of b
havior in the military, but the one thing I would like to concentrate
is the point system of discharge, the system by means of which
military forces of the United States were demobilized at the end
World War II, demobilized in rapid, and in the perspective of history
chaotic fashion .
   Mr. HAYS . You know something right there there was a cause f
demobilization more than any poll, speech on the floor of this Hous
or numerous speeches, but I am thinking of one, in which a Memb
of Congress who now holds a very high position in the Armed Servic
 Committee, who was not satisfied with getting the men demobiliz
by bringing them home on the Queen Mary, but he wanted to fly th
home . That is in the Congressional Record . I am not going to dr
his name into the hearings, I do not want to embarrass him . But mo
anybody could learn who it was . I say to you advisedly, air, th
speeches such as that had much more to do with demobilizing than a
,opinion polls, or private opinion polls, or Army opinion polls th
took. The pressure of the American people back,hc ne was Americ
democracy, and perhaps I might say that some Members of the Co
think it is bad, but. I don't think we are going to change it.
                                      Dr. lions . Exactly.
                                      Mr. HAYS. One other question right there. , I am trying to be very
       friendly . I do not mean to embarrass you . You do not mean to
infer,andIam fraidtha mybesome ight avegotentheinfer-
       ence from a question that I asked, you do not mean to infer that
    they took 'a ` poll on whether they should invade through the soft
       underbelly or across the channel, do you, or what, day the invasion
should go across, and so on?
                                   Dr. HOBBS . Well, they admit that they were not able to do as many
things as they wanted to do .
                                   Mr. HAYS. That you think they might have liked to do?
                                   Dr. HOBBS . Well, I don't know .
                                   Mr. HAYS . You know that is a funny thing . In my limited expe-
    rience with the Army, nobody ever asked me anything ., They just
told me . I might say, if I volunteered -I did once,' and I gott to
dig latrines, so in all of my experience with it, they discouraged you
    from offering opinions.
                                   Dr. HOBBS . Sir, there is an old Army precept that you violated
    when you volunteered.
                                   Mr. HAYS'. I know. That was the first day. They asked for people
    who could operate a typewriter . I: ~ stepped forward and, he said,
"Well, if you can run a typewriter, you ought to be able to handle
a pick."
                                   The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed now.
                                   Dr. HoBBs . Here is some more background of this point system
    of discharge :
                            In the course of a speech to the Americah. people 3n, 1944; PresidelAt Roose-
velt justified the Army's plans for demobilization at the end of the war on
the grounds that the order of demobilization wouldd be determined in teams
of what the soldiers themselves wanted . The idea of a point system for
demobilization had been 'conceived in the research branch and accepted by
the War' DepartmoMM and the President. Representative samples of men
throughout the world were queried and from their responses the variables of
length of ervice, overseas duty, combat duty, and parenthood, emerged as
most significant .
  If I may interject, from these opinion polls, you can be very much
misled about things like this, and in a matter so big, so important,
it is extremely , hazardous to use them, not that they don't have a
use, or not that efforts should not be made to develop them. a s far
as we can and so on, but as yet, certainly, it is very risky to use them
in matters of this kind.
   The final weights assigned to these variables yielded point scores which have
a close correspondence with the wishes of the maximum number of soldiers,
even if it did not exactly reproduce these wishes .
  And then they go on to say that the point system established the
order not the rate of demobilization, and that is a questionable con-
tention, because when you have given and publicized a notion of this
kind, here, again, is an illustration of where the fact that you make
the study card change the situation which you are studying . If you
give members of the armed services the notion that they are to be
and should be consulted on vital military policy, then this fact in
    Mr. HArs. Doctor, all of this is new to me, but did the foundatio
 have anything to do with encouraging this point system. in the Army
 Did they get into this act in any way I
    Dr. HOBB. The people involved were people who were prev
 ously, and most of them still are, very heavy recipients of found
 tion funds, and the foundations, as I indicated the Social Scien
 Research Council, did get this material at the end of the war, got
 material declassified by the War Department and worked on it a
 then it was published through the-the various volumes were pu
 lished through a series of authors, with the senior author, being Pro
 Samuel A. Stouffer .
   Mr. HAYs. Are you challenging anything in there as to .the valid
 of it? That is not a good way of phrasing . Are you challenging
 your statement whether or not this did happen or did not happen?
 Are you challenging the theory behind it?
   Dr. HooBS . The theory.. It did happen, as I am citing.
   Mr. HAYS. In other words, if the book says so and it happened
 about the only connection the foundations have is that they made i
 possiblefor that book to be published, is that right ?
   Dr. HOBBS. Not only made it possible to be published, but the in
 fluence, what I am pointing out here-the influence of this type o
 social science, what it can , have and does have in this context, in t
military, even in a military sphere.
   Mr. HAYS . You do not think the point system was bad, do you?
   Dr. Hoaus . I was in the service, too, and fortunately I had enou
points ,to get out so at that time I thought it was good . Incidentall
I stayed. in awhile longer but I was glad that under this I could hav
gotten out at an earlier date if I wanted to. But I made no pre
tense
   Mr . HAYS. As I remember it, the decision was made that we wer
going to demobilize and we were going to discharge a certain numb
of men . Now, what we come to is to find out which ones we ke
and which ones we let go.
   Dr. HOBBS. That was not a military decision. The military d
cision was quite different .
   Mr. HAYS. Maybe the Congress made the decision, but somebod
said you are going to discharge so many, right?
   Dr.'Hoxhs. 'No, Sir . The groups, the individuals, rather, who wer
discharged, and the nature of the entire demobilization program was,
as I would like to point out, the result of this influence of socia
science rather than the result of military policy which opposed it .
   Mr. HATS . Doctor, you do not mean to tell me that if it had no
been for this little group of social scientists, that we would not hav
demobilized ?
   Dr. HOBBS., In the manner in which we did, we would not .
   Mr. HAYS . Never mind the manner .
   Dr . HOBBS .' I think that is of vital significance .
   Mr. HAYS : I think we are quibbling over something that is not ver
important:' I say to you that the American people urged on by cer
tain demagogic` speeches said, "We are going to tear this Army down
bring the boys home ." That ,is what they wanted." The military :wa
going if-,bring first ." Is that nott what happened?
  Dr. Hoses. Which ones we are . going to bring home first was~1'4e
termined by the point system .
  Mr. HAYS. I think that is all to the good .
  Dr. HoBBS. You may change your opinion, sir .
  The CHAIRMAN. I was around here then, as I had been awhile before_
I never felt any overwhelming demand from home for demobiliza-
tion. I heard a lot about it since .
  Mr. HAYS . I will refer you to a speech, and I will not mention his
name, in which he said, "I don't want the boys sent home by ship ; I
think we ought to fly them home," and he is a good orator . You
know who, he, is talking about . .
  The CHAIRMAN. I know who you are talking about .
  Mr. HAYS . He said that, did he not? I was not here then, but ,1
thought it was a good idea.
  The CHAIRMAN. I never had any overwhelming demand from the
folks back home.
  Mr. HAYS . I do not know what you had, but my predecessor said
that most of his mail consisted-and it was very heavy in letters from
mothers especially after V-E day-of when do we get the boys back .
  Mr. 'olMsER. May I again ask Dr. Hobbs to clarify something for
Mr. Hays, namely, if I understand it correctly, that he is not dis-
cussing the desirability of demobilizing or not demobilizing : What he
is discussing is essentially this, that instead of the military making the
decisions to demobilize in such a way as to protect best the welfare of
the United States, the decision was made ,under the influence, of a
group of social scientists, the decision on how the demobilization
should take place, not the quantity but how, and' that that deeisiotr
might well have, or it did fly in the face of military necessity . Is that
correct, Dr . Hobbs ?
  Dr. Hoiu s. Yes, Sir.
  Mr. .HAYS. That is interesting and perhaps very true . I would like
to, hear,moret it. In what way did it fly in the face of military
               about
necessity? Do you mean the fellows had been in for 6 years, they,
should have .kept them because they knew more about it and let the
boys who served only 90 days outs is that it?,
   Dr . HaBBs. May I describe that, please, from the book?
   Mr. HAYS . Sure . , .
   Dr. HOBBS: There were two schools of thought .
  One school of thought which had particularly strong representation in Army
Ground Forces tended to see the problem as one of preserving intact at all
costs the combat, fighting teams .
   You see, they were thinking in military terms .
  This meant discharging mainly service troops, limited servicemen, and soldiers
not yet fully trained . Combat veterans, especially the experienced noncom's,
were obviously the core of our magnificent fighting machine .- Another school
of thought, also arguing on the basis of military efficiency- .
they, say military efficiency here, but I don't know how they could
justify it-
held that the men of longest service should be so disaffected by a policy which
regarded the men who had made the least sacrifice that the morale of the '
combat teams would be as much endangered by retaining such men as by dis-
charging some of them . Furthermore, they pointed out 	
   Mr. HAYS . You do not think the morale would have been affect
at all? . .
   Dr. HOBBS . It would have been affected goit%e, bait in relative te±ff
'of military strategy and policy, I do not think the effect would hav
been so great here as it would have been on the other side.
   Mr. HAYS . Let me tell you something about that . I will give y
the benefit of my experience . I was in Greece in 1949 with Genera
Van Fleet for a few days.' General Van Fleet went to Greece an
took a disorganized, beaten, army, and in 2' years made man for man
I will say., one of the finest fighting forces the world has ever see
But do you know what he told me his biggest problem was? The
knew how to fight, but his biggest problem was morale because mo
of those men that he got a hold of had been in the Greek Army f
9 years, and their morale was shot to pieces because they had bee
fighting and lots of people back home had not beenn called upon
do anything more than run away from the Communists. Afid he sa
that that was his biggest problem. So that just is contrary to , t
theory that you say, is it not, it would not have affected m0ale?
   Dr. HOBBS. I` did not say, sir, that it would not have affected mar' al
The question here is which would have affected the military strengt
of the United States more, and . that question, I would aiiswer, t
policy of the point system of dicharge, in my opinion, which is ce
tainly not a professional opinion, professional military opinion,
my opinion would have affected it more than the other .
   Mr. HAYS . Doctor, I again want to say that yart have' a perfe
right to yout opinion, and it may very well be that out opinion
the correct one . I do not happen to agree with it . But that is o
of the beautiful things about the democracy we have. Let me sa
further along that line, that it would have been probable in anythi
but a democracy, that the military would have been able to do wha
ever they wanted to do . But unfortunately, from their point of vie
and I say this from my point of view fortunately, in a democrac
such as we have, even sometimes the will of the people can be ma
to have an influence on the military .
   Dr. HoBSS . But, sir, this was not the will of the people.
   Mr. HAYS . I disagree very vitally with you.
   Dr. HOBBS. It may have been the will of the people that this ha
pened, but the influencing factor, and this is what I am trying
stress, the influencing factor was not a balance such as it should
democratically, not a . balance of conflicting opinions, but it was t
influence of what was called social science .
   Mr. HAYS . Well, I say to you that I was back in Ohio at that tim
and it was the influence of the people back home . That is what it wa
I do not think that they knew anything about social science or care
less, in the Army .
   Dr. HOBBS . That is quite irrelevant .
   Mr. HAYS. They just felt that the boys who had given the most o
served the longest and who had been in there for the greatest leng
 of time ought to come home first . Some who had not been an
 did not go, if they needed any more men, take them . That pri
 ciple still applies today . We have pretty much of a rotation und
the draft system, and I do not think you will disagree that th
get it? Because the Congress did not vote to give it to them. Why
didn't the Congress vote to give it to them? Because a good many
of them felt that if they did, they would not come back to Congress.
It is just as simple as that. That is the way democracy makes itself
felt.
   Dr. HOBBS . On these issues, I am not pretending that I am right or
you are wrong. That really is not involved.
  Mr. HAYS. I am only putting these in in order to show that there
are two sides to it. I certainly want to say right here and now that
there is a side that you are presenting, and it certainly can be a valid
one. In other words, I am saying there is plenty of room for argu-
ment, but the only reason I am interrupting you is so that the record
will not show that we sit here and concur in these views which may
or may not be yours, even.
  Dr. HOBBS. That is quite proper.
   The CHAIRMAN. I am assuming that my silence will not be construed
as agreeing with everything you have to say .
  Mr. HAYS . I cannot be responsible for anything that anybody con-
strues about your silence . I would suggest that you just speak up.
That is the way I do . Just because you think I am wrong, I will not
get wrong .
  The CHAIRMAN . Off the record .
   (Discussion off the record.)
   The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed .
  Mr. HOBBS. Thank you . The book referred to two schools of
thought . It continues
  Proponents of the first point of view
that is, the military-
had an additional argument which has a special plausibility . If discharges were
to be made on the basis of entire units, the Army would not be opened to charges
of favoritism to individuals . If an individual's record were taken into account,
there was too much chance of a scandal, particularly if the Army yielded to
political pressure to discharge certain individuals or certain categories of individ-
uals without respect to military needs . It was admitted that the replacement
system had operated so that a given unit was likely to contain personnel with, a
very wide range of service and that a unit discharge would give new replae-
ments in demobilized outfits a head start in civilian life over the combat veterans
in outfits retained. But this was advanced as the lesser of two evils .
  Then they describe the fact that they took the polls, and one poll
was taken and as a result of that first poll the criteria for discharge,
the basis for the point system, included length of time in the Army,
age, overseas service, and dependency . Combat service was not
included in the first poll . But in the first poll, they had left a place
where the soldiers could write in things which they believed should
be included in a discharge system, and one of the things which was
written in frequently was the thought that combat experience should
be weighted into the point system.
    After studying the data of the type summarized in the tables 1 and 2, General
 Osborne decided to put all of the influence of the Information and Education
 Division behind a system which would : (a) establish priorities on an individual
  not a unit basis ; and (b) take into account the explicit preferences of the
 soldiers themselves insofar as the latter was consistent with military necessity .
,On the basis of soldier preferences, the Information and Educational Division
        49720--54-pt. 1-11
the number of months of overseas service, the number of children, and the l
of time in the Army . After lengthy discussions, the War Department acc
the outlines of this proposal, leaving to a future date the setting of the
number of points for each category and the method of determining such a f
as combat service. This decision was announced to the public in September
  And again, if I may interject, once you publicize a thing like t
you create a different situation than the one which existed before
  It was decided that the actual points to be assigned would not be anno
until after the surrender of Germany . Between September 1944 and the de
of Germany, there followed several months in which there was much arg
in the special planning division as to the assignment of points . The four fac
longevity in the Army, overseas service, combat and parenthood, had
publicly announced, but it was thought still possible by opponents of the p
 and this is another instance where you see persistently the mili
 for reasons which they had but which they could not publicly rev
 sensed or knew that we were going to run into a situation in Eu
 with one of our then allies, that is, fl-u-s-s-i-a .
   Mr. HAYS . Would you repeat that statement?
   Dr. HOBBS . The indications are that the military knew or at l
it sensed that there was a good likelihood of running into trouble
Russia at the end of the German war, but, however, at that time
were allies with Russia . They could not publicize this . They ha
keep it quiet . Yet it turns out they were right . They could
been wrong, but it turns out they were quite correct . Here is ano
group which probably knew nothing of this very important milit
matter, and, knowing nothing, they still insist and push and get
 type of thing adopted .
   Mr. HAYS . I am very interested in that statement, because I am
wondering whether it is valid or not . I do not give the military
benefit of that much foresight . I will tell you why . The mili
made the agreement with the Russians about Berlin, and about all
the matters of the ways to get in Berlin and what have you .
military also made the agreements with the Russians about Vie
You probably know that we have never had any trouble about Vie
but we have had a lot of trouble about Berlin, for the simple rea
that the group of military men who made the rules down at Vi
made one set of rules and there was another set of rules made up
Berlin .
   The Russians have taken every advantage, as the Communi
 always do, to harass, to blockade, to do everything they could wi
the rules . I have been in both places a number of times since the
 Every time I go to Berlin, I go by the sufferance of the Communi
But if you go to Vienna, it is very clearly outlined that from the
field to Vienna, the road is American property . There is no
outline about the road from the American zone to Berlin . That s
to be Russian property.
   Dr. Hones . That is correct .
   Mr. HAYS . Maybe the boys down at Vienna had some indicati
they were going to have trouble with Russia, or maybe if they w
smart enough to have them, to do something about them, but app
ently the boys in Berlin, if they felt that way, didn't take
precautions.
   Dr. HOBBS. I guess the Russians considered Berlin for what it i
much more important
the arrangements up around Berlin . I think that question might
very well be left open .
   Mr. HAYS . I made a statement there and I am standing on it . I
said that they made the ground rules . I don't say they made the
decision that we would pull back from here or pull back from there,
but they in conference with the Russian high command made the
ground rules. You do not need to take my word for it, you can go
back and get the history and get the pictures of them having their
parties together .
   I don't know who did the job down at Vienna, but those unsung
heroes certainly did a lot better job than was done up north .
   The CHAIRMAN . You may proceed .
   Professor Hobbs, before you begin, if I may, how much time do you
think would be required for you to complete your statement?
   Mr. HAYS. Without any interruption .
   Dr. HOBBS . Without any interruptions, this material on the Ameri-
can soldier, maybe 15 minutes, and then there is another matter, a
final matter which will come up which should take no longer than 5
or 10 minutes .
   Mr. WORMSER . I have a few questions I would like to ask, myself,
Mr . Chairman .
   The CHAIRMAN . Would it be inconvenient for you to be here
tomorrow
   Dr. HOBBS. No, Sir. I have made arrangements in Philadelphia .
to be here on Thursday, so I could have gone back tonight but it would
be no special hardship to stay over .
   The CHAIRMAN . Why do we not run until 4 o'clock?
   Mr. HAYS . Let him finish with this subject .
   Dr. HOBBS (reading)
  It was thought still possible by opponents to the plan to obtain the benefit of
claiming soldier endorsement and still manipulate the weights so that overseas
service and combat service actually would count negligibly toward the total score .
The Information and Education Division always recognizing that military
necessity should come first-
   Now, where they interject these matters of military necessity, and
so on, I question that they really comprehended them in high degree,
but that is a question-
held that either the final points must have the effect of approximating the priori-
ties desired by the majority of soldiers or else the reasons why this wasn't
possible in terms of military necessity should be frankly admitted by the Army.
   In other words, they pressed the military group, and if they had
as their reason the possibility of Russian aggression and encroach-
ment into European territories, such as actually did happen, if the
military had that in mind, they could not publicly announce it because
Russia at that time was an ally. And from a standpoint of both mili-
tary policy and from a standpoint of diplomatic policy, it was just
something that they could not do . Yet this group pushed them into
a position where they had to do it or accept this point system of
discharge which the military consistently opposed .
   To increase the combat credit, it was decided also to give five points for each
decoration received, including the Purple' Heart for wounds . This decision made
at a -time when it was thought that the Air Forces would be discharged on a.
were particularly to be resented by veterans of ground combat .
  There are two items there, one, that this is supposed to make par
ticularly the ground combat men pleased and happy but it turns o
that it makes them disgruntled and dissatisfied . The second is tha
when it is (probably in an unforeseen manner) applied to the Ai
Force, which was, of course, if you were to name at that stage a
under those circumstances the one crucial unit of the military services
you would probably name the Air Force ; when it was applied to th
then it resulted in an extremely rapid, almost chaotic disbandme
of the American Air Forces in Europe .
  Among the combat veterans in the worldwide cross section there was a sha
difference of attitude as between Air Force veterans and ground force vetera
Among the former, whose point scores were inflated by numerous decoration
a third-
that is, this resulted in a situation where one-third of the personne
of the Air Force was immediately entitled to discharge under th
point system which, obviously, disrupted the military value of t
Air Force-
among the Air Force there was one-third that had 85 points or over, while amo
the latter-
that is the ground forces-
only one-ninth had 85 points or over . Incredible as it seemed at the time
many in the Information and Education Division, there was a strong sentime
within the War Department for eliminating combat credit entirely after V
Day-
and again, as you learn throughout this, the military was attemptin
to preserve the power, the strategical military power of the Unite
States, and in retrospect it certainly appears that they had goo
reasons for that decision. But again you get this group pushin
them, preventing them from using military principles in a militar
situation, sacrificing such principles for what is called social scienc
  The research report quoted above played a part in the War Department'
decision to leave the point system intact after V-J Day . It was felt that t
capitulation of Japan was so near at hand that any recalculation of poi
scores should not be undertaken unless overwhelmingly sought by the me
This was a keen disappointment to some of the revisionists in the War Depar
ment who were working to reduce or eliminate overseas and combat credit .
was also a disappointment, though perhaps a lesser one, to the Information a
Education Division, which would have preferred an increase in credit for ove
seas service, and an addition of the combat infantry badge to the elemen
counting for combat credit.
   Mr. YY ORMSER . I would like to be sure of the stenographer, to
sure that you are quoting from somebody else's work .
  Dr. HOBBS. I am quoting from volume II of American Soldie
That is another indication of the almost diametrically opposed view
points in this military situation, with the social scientist insistin
on one thing and the military, for what turns out to have bee
eminently good reasons, insisting on another.
  I quote again
  In the official history of ground forces the havoc played in one division
Europe by transfer out of its 85 point men after V-J Day is described in so
detail. The facts in general were, however, that of all the men with comb
   Now, again, here is an application of a statistic, in a context in
which it cannot be applied safely. You say, or these people say,
only 1 in 9 . But if this 1 in 9 is a keyman, that might disrupt an
entire squad . It might even disrupt an entire company . It might
'disrupt the crew of a heavy bomber, and things of that sort, which
should certainly have been taken into consideration, but which could
 not be taken into consideration with this approach .
  It is true that many of these were keymen, but it is also true that there were
replacements with combat experience available who could have taken their
places and, indeed, many more such men than any current estimates for the
Pacific war required .
  And the citation for that official history of the ground forces
describing that havoc played in one division in Europe, the citation
is "United States Army in World War II, the Army Ground Forces,"
published in Washington 1947 .
  They conclude, and I will conclude this material on the American
Soldier in this way : that is, volume II, which discusses the point
system sums it up in this way
  There are "ifs" where history cannot definitively answer . In taking its cal-
culated risks, the Army won its gamble .
  Now, if I may interject here, it was not the Army, it was this group .
The Army, the military insisted on quite another policy, and to say
that the Army won its gamble is misleading and, you might add, one
more such victory and we are undone . This turned out, in the retro-
spect of history, to have been an extremely costly political as well as
military procedure .
  One cannot say for certain what would have happened after V-J Day as well
as before if there had not been an objective method of demobilization which the
majority men regarded as fair in principle because "military efficiency" Is not
independent of "morale ." There are grounds for believing that the War Depart-
ment chose collectively when it broke all precedent and went to the enlisted men
for their opinions before promulgating its redeployment and demobilization policy .
   That is the opinion of the authors of this volume .
   Another and quite contrary opinion, I would say, could be at least
equally justified . But the point that I wanted to stress all through
is the way in which social science can and does encroach out and
expand into areas not only of morality but of politics and in this
instance military policy which was of the very highest order . Un-
fortunately, the situation is one in which, at the present time, and in
the foreseeable future, we just-and I use "we" in the context of social
scientists-we just don't know enough to gamble with supposedly
scientific methods in these areas . If mistakes are to be made, let them
be made by people who are expert in the field, and of course they will
make mistakes .
   The CHAIRMAN . Now do you want to make your concluding state-
ment, Professor? We will meet your wishes on that .
   Dr. Hones . A question was raised before, I think, about is there any
pressure exerted on scholars in connection with these things .
   I would like to mention just this There was another book that came
out, titled "Studies in the Scope and Method of the American Sol-
dier," and in one of the reviews-this book contained a number of
reviews about what was the greatest or seemed to be the greatest feat
and this is the type of pressure you get in this connection . I qu
from this book
  The rivalrous role is enacted by social scientists whose interest in empiri
research quantitatively reported is low . Since no reviewer has taken the v
that better research of this type is available or in sight, the rivalrous post
involves a preference (stated or implied) for a search of a different type . Wh
this preference is merely implied and no alternative specified, the result is
vigorous negativism which leads to the extreme attitude we have designat
as diabolic .
   Now if you will just imagine yourself, you are in this case, a you
fellow getting started out, and you happen to tread on sacred so
you just do a little bit of criticism against these groups who are
powerful. This is the type of thing that comes back at you . I conti
with the quote
  Only one reviewer has approximated this extreme view in point, Nathan Glaze
who is-
please note these words-
  who is a young man at the periphery of the profession and hence, perhaps, le
heedful of its imperatives toward discretion .
   In other words, "If you want to get in with us, watch your st
and don't criticize our work ."
   That type of thing is certainly undesirable, unhealthy, in stud
which are supposed to be openminded, where you are supposed
allow for these differences of opinion which, Congressman, as y
rightly, I would say, place such high value on . When you g
pressure of this type it isn't a very good situation .
   Mr. HAYS . It seemed to me that you were rather critical of t
foundations a little earlier for not directing this Mr . Chase, was
in how to write his book .
   Dr. HOBBS . Advising him of the limitations particularly in t
fields in which these men were supposed to be experts and in whi
he was not .
   Mr. HAYS . Would you consider it a salutary situation where if
foundation granted money to someone to write a book, to just l
him go ahead and write it? It would seem to me they ought not
tell him one way or the other .
   Dr. HOBBS . Yes, I agree with this, but the Chase incident was
completely different situation. He was requested, and as the quot
tion will show, two important members of the foundation request
him to write it . By his own statement they worked with him
through and, presumably, were for the purpose of giving him the
best knowledge and advice and still they permitted him to make
series of very extreme, unwarranted statements, about the very ma
ters in which these people were supposed to be experts .
   Mr. HAYS . I have an impression that his book did not sell ve
well .
   Dr. HOBnS . I think that is not too vital a point one way or t
other.
   Mr. HAYS . I just might feel, and I am just old-fashioned enou
to think that maybe the reason it did not is because somebody ask
him to write it . 1 always had the old-fashioned belief that if som
   Dr. HOBS. I would agree with that principle .
   Mr. WORMSER. Mr. Chairman, Dr . Hobbs has some more material
and I have a few questions which are rather important . I think
we will have to carry over until tomorrow morning .
   The CHAIRMAN . If it is agreeable . I think we are about to reach,
as they say down home, quitting time .
   As an additional observation with reference to the observation
you made of what General Van Fleet said about morale, if you will
pardon me for referring to it, I recall on the 9th of November 1918,
when I got a message from the brigade commander, stating that it
was reported that the morale of blank division was bad, and asking
                                                              I
me to report on the morale of the third battalion, which happened
to be commanding as a lieutenant . This message is on record and
my reply is on record down here in the War Department :
  The morale of the men of the third battalion is good . They may not be
a hundred percent efficient because of the arduous service they have been
called upon to render during the past several days, but they are remarkably
subservient to the will of their officers and are ready to perform any duty
that may be required of them .
   And that has been the experience I have had, in my limited way,
in dealing with the American soldiers when they are confronted
with an important duty, that I have always found them ready to
perform it, whether they have been in the service 1 month, 1 year,
or 2 years .
  Mr. HAYS . Well, I think that is a valuable addition to my argu-
ment, that you didn't have to keep the men that had been there the
longest .
  The CHAIRMAN . We find it necessary to change our committee room
for tomorrow. The committee will meet in room 1334, being the
Interstate and Foreign Commerce Committee Room . That is in the
New House Office Building .
  I would appreciate the members of the press advising any of the
others that you might come in contact with, who might be interested
in the location .
  Mr. HAYS . Do you have any plans to bring anyone else besides Dr .
Hobbs tomorrow?
  Mr. WORMSER. Yes . Tom McNiece, the assistant research direc-
tor, who will read another report which we are working our heads
off to get ready for you at least by the time of the hearing .
  Mr. HAYS. Why do you not keep your heads and let me finish ask-
ing Mr . Dodd some questions about his report before we get another
one? It is immaterial to me, but I am ready .
  The CHAIRMAN . I think my reaction to orderly procedure would
be to let Mr. McNiece make his presentation and then any questions
that you might want to ask of Mr . Dodd or Mr . McNiece could
follow.
  Mr. HAYS . It is immaterial to me, Mr. Chairman . I do not see
what that has to do with orderly procedure . In the first place, we
didn't get Mr . Dodd's statement the day he made it, and I have the
notes made. I could have gone ahead yesterday except you said Dr .
Briggs wanted to get back to New Hampshire. I do not want the
thing to hang fire forever. But I don't care .
ment to make and my reaction would be it would be best for him
make the statement and then we ought to have the rest of the per
of the day for questioning . Mr. Dodd can come on first and the
we want to question Mr. MeNiece we would proceed, if tha
agreeable.
  Mr. HAYS. I have no objection except I understand I will be
to interrupt Mr . McNiece .
  The CHAIRMAN. That is all right .
  We will recess until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning .
   (Whereupon, at 3 :55 p . m ., the committee was recessed, to re
vene at 10 a . m . Thursday, May 20, 1954 .)
                  TAX-EXEMPT FOUNDATIONS

                     THURSDAY, MAY 20, 1954
                          HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
                      SPECIAL COMMITTEES To INVESTIGATE
                                TAX EXEMPT FOUNDATIONS,
                                                  Wa8hington, D. C.
  The special subcommittee met at 10 a . m ., pursuant to recess, in room
1334, New House Office Building, Hon . Carroll Reece (chairman of
the special subcommittee) presiding .
  Present : Representatives Reece (presiding), Hays, and P'fost .
  Also present : Rene A. Wormser, general counsel ; Arnold T. Koch,
associate counsel ; Norman Dodd, research director ; Kathryn Casey,
legal analyst .
  The CHAIRMAN . The committee will please come to order.
  Who is the first witness?
  Mr. WORMSER. We will continue with Professor Hobbs .
TESTIMONY OF DR . A. H. HOBBS, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF
   SOCIOLOGY, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA-Resumed
  The CHAIRMAN . Do you have an additional statement to make, Pro-
fessor Hobbs, or are you submitting yourself for questioning at this
time?                               .1
  Dr. HOBBS. I believe Mr. Wormser indicated that he had some
questions to ask of me.
  The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed, Mr . Wormser .
  Mr. WORMSER . Dr. Hobbs, you testified in some detail about a few
particular books . You don't mean to leave any inference that your
general opinions concerning what you call scientism relate only to
those few books?
  Dr. HOBBS. No, Sir . This is a very widespread situation . It is con-
tained in dozens and dozens of books . I cited those which I did cite
only to illustrate the point . Many other books could be cited . But,
of course, most of those other books, in fact, would have no connection
with foundations.
  Mr. WORMSER . Doctor, I hand you this morning an advertisement
of Dr . Kinsey's second book . I think it is very important to illustrate
the extent to which that book has resulted in a discussion of changes of
law in the area of marriage and sex.
  Would you read the material on that ad and describe it? It ap-
peared in the New York Times on May 11 .
  Dr. HOBBS. This is an advertisement for the second volume in the
Kinsey series, the volume on Sexual Behavior in the Human Female .
The advertisement reads
  What do you care about sex laws?
                                                                165
offenders.
  These laws are supposed to protect you ; they don't always do that, and th
are sometimes turned against ordinary citizens like yourself .
  The Kinsey report cites instances of how and when and where . Shouldn't y
read it?
  Mr. WORMSER . Have you read the entire ad?
   Dr. HOBBS . Except the price of the book and the publisher .
   Mr. WORMSER. Would the committee like to see the ad? I wou
like to offer it in evidence and you might wish to see it.
  The CHAIRMAN . Without objection it is so ordered .
   (The material referred to is as follows :)



                                       What do
                                      you care
                                      about
                                      sex laws?

         Maybe you ought to think a little bit about our
         laws concerning sex and sex offenders .
        These laws are supposed to protect you : they
        don't always do that, and they are sometimes
        turned against ordinary citizens like yourself.
         The Kinsey Report cites instances of how,
         and when, and where . Shouldn't you read it?

                842 pages, $8.00 . At any bookseller,
                  or send order with remittance to


               W. B . Saunders Company
        W. Washington Square, Philadelphia 5, Pa .




     THE NEW YORK TIMES BOOK REVIEW                          MAY 16 . $54
 in this manner, is a desirable activity of a foundation?
   Dr. HOBBS . I would say that they are. encroaching, as in the instance
 of the encroachment in the military area, in areas in, in this case, .
 legal areas, as well as moralistic areas, where they should be extremely
cautious.
   I don't mean to imply that no investigation should be made, nor
that the findings should be suppressed, or anything of that kind. But
a great deal of caution should be used in connection with these extra-
scientific areas, if you wish to call them such, and that degree of
caution certainly has not been exercised .
   Mr. WORMSER. Dr. Hobbs, do I express your opinion correctly by
this statement? The foundations, or some of them, in the Cox hear-
ings last year, maintained that the best use of their funds would be
in experimenf in reaching out for new horizons, in considering their
precious funds in what they call risk capital . You would approve of
experiment in the sense of trying to reach new horizons, but you would
caution, I assume, against experiment as such where it relates to the
relationship of human beings and basic factors in our society ?
   Dr . HOBBS . Yes, sir ; a great deal of caution, I think, should be
applied in those areas. For one thing, because of the points I tried
to establish yesterday, that the mere fact that the thing is being
studied can change the situation ; and secondly, because the findings
of a study can affect human behavior and we should be extremely
cautious when we are entering into areas of that sort .
   Mr . HAYS . Mr . Wormser, would you go back to the question just
immediately preceding this? Could we have the question read?
   (The question referred to was read by the reporter as recorded
above.)
   Mr. WORMSER . Dr. Hobbs, I would like you to extend your remarks
somewhat on the subject of empiricism . The material has been used
by witnesses several times . I would like you to discuss this aspect of
empiricism ; whether or not it is safe to be used in consideration of
human problems by itself, or whether it must not always be related
to any other pertinent material in the social sciences, such as basic
moral codes and so forth?
   Dr. HOBBS. I would feel very definitely that so-called empirical
findings must be fitted into a framework of the legal precepts, the tra-
ditions, the history, the moral codes, the military principles of the
area in which they are applied. That in and of themselves, by their
very nature, they exclude the intangibles which may be not only
important but may be crucial in a final decision .
   Mr. HAYS . Dr. Hobbs, right there, do you mean to imply that all the
studies by foundations in this field of social science are empirical
studies and that they have no relation or are not fitted in in any way,
shape, or form with the other things you mentioned?
   Dr . HOBBS . No, Sir ; I don't mean to imply that at all . There are
studies fostered which are other than empirical . But it is my im-
pression, and not only mine but the impression of quite a number of
other professors with whom I correspond, that there is coming to be
an overemphasis on what is called empiricism . Empiricism itself, of
course, is a thoroughly acceptable technique of investigation . Like
able as an approach in and of itself .
   Two things, however, seem to be occurring . One, that it is n
really empiricism which is being sponsored. It is more nearly stati
tical manipulation without any real background of the numbers whic
are being manipulated . Those numbers usually represent people .
 .
   Mr . HAYS . Right there, I want to ask you about that before
go any further .
   The word "manipulate" usually has a connotation meaning tha
you decide what the answer is going to be first and then manipulat
the figures. Do you mean to imply that?
   Dr. HOBBS . No, Sir ; I didn't mean to imply that at all .
   Mr. HAYS. Maybe we ought to use some other term .
   Dr. HOBBS. Statistical computations if you wish .
   Mr. HAYS . I think that means what you want to say and the oth
had a different meaning .
   Dr. HOBBS. I am very glad you mentioned that because I had abso
lutely no intent to imply that .
   Mr. HAYS. In other words, these people decide what the answer
to be and then set out to make it come out that way?
   Dr . HOBBS . I didn't mean that ; no, sir .
   Mr . WORMSER . Dr . Hobbs, I would like your opinion and whatev
discussion you can give us on the general influence that foundation
have had on research in the colleges and universities .
   Dr. HOBBS . I don't think I could speak as to the overall genera
influence . I have made no separate study of that . But from m
own experience, and as I indicated from the experience of other
some of whom are prominent within their respective fields, there are
myself included, and others, who are becoming increasingly concerne
about what is or what seems to be-perhaps we are wrong in this-
overemphasis upon this so-called empiricism . Unfortunately, as
said before, it is a respectable and acceptable technique, but it is onl
one part of a very large pattern, if you want to approach a bette
understanding of human behavior .
   Particularly where large grants are involved, the grants tend to b
geared into programs of "empiricism"-and I wish the word woul
be kept in quotes whenever it is used here-and then graduate student
receive their training'through these grants . I don t mean to impl
in any sense that the foundations have organized their grants for thi
purpose, or that they are promoting intentionally and purposefull
the type of thing I am going to describe . I merely wish to point i
out as a situation which does arise and which I believe is quite unfor
tunate.
   These graduate students, who, of course, will be the researcher
and the teachers of the future, are subjected by the very nature o
the situation to enter in disproportionate numbers into this one smal
area, an (important area, to be sure, but just one area of their trainin
They are encouraged through the situation to embark upon stud
projects which are extremely narrow, and with the aid of the grant
the persons running the research are able to employ professiona
interviewers, for example . One part of graduate training should b
some acquaintance with people . The graduate student, I would feel
interviewer . In failing to do his own interviewing, he has thereby
lost an important element, I would say, of what should be his train-
ing.
                  these projects aid these students to a disproportionate
degree . Other students who, through differing interests, through a
broader viewpoint of society and behavior, who do their own work
and who don t have such assistance, are handicapped in comparison
with the ones who receive the aid through foundation grants .
   So that there are cases where the graduate student in his training
has concentrated in a very small area of the statistical computations-
and I wish to add that in themselves there is nothing wrong with
that, but . they are a very small part of the overall picture-but in such
training they neglect studies of the traditions of the country, the studies
of the history of the country, they neglect actual experience with
people, they neglect studies of the philosophies which have been devel-
oped in connection with human civilization, and they even neglect
and this may sound extreme, but I can vouch that it does happen
they even neglect studies of science .
   One of my favorite questions when I am examining students for a .
graduate degree is a question of this sort . Here you are, you are going :
to get a doctor of philosophy degree . What have you read in philos-
ophy? I appreciate that this sounds extreme, but there are graduate
students who get such degrees who have never read a book in philos

   Then another question along the same lines : What have you ever
read in the philosophy of science ; and some of them have read little
or nothing in that area either .
   So you get this tendency to overspecialize, overconcentrate in one
area which admittedly has its merits,, but which leads to a narrowness
of mind, not the broader outlook which we need in the present unde-
veloped conditions associated with social science .
   Another aspect of this same situation is that graduate students and
faculty members are discouraged from applying for grants unless
they, too, are willing to do this type of "empirical' investigation .
   For example, this is a bulletin of the Social Science Research Coun-
cil, an announcement of fellowships and grants to be offered in 1953 .
In this bulletin it states that fellowships and grants described in this
circular are of two distinct types . One, those designed exclusively
to further the training of research workers in social science.
   If I may interject to read : "Research worker" for a layman would
have a broad general significance-research is desirable and so forth .
But in the connotation in which it is all too frequently used, in social
science, research means statistical computation . A social scientist
reading this would interpret it to mean that probably, almost certainly,
what they are interested in is . only statistical computations.
   The quotation on this first point goes on to say
  These include the research training fellowships and the area research-training
fellowships . These fellowships provide full maintenance .
   A second category listed
   Those designed to aid scholars of established competence in the execution of
their research, family, the travel grants for area research, grants in aid of
research, and faculty research fellowships .
  These fellowships may be granted for programs that will afford either expri-
ence in the . conduct of research-
and remembering here that the reader of this material knows or
lieves they mean statistical computation-
and first-hand analysis of empirical data under the guidance of mature inves
gators or further formal training or both . ,
   Purposes for which grants-in-aid may be expended include wages of clerical
technical assistants, tabulating, photostating, microfilming and similar servi
 transportation, and living expenses of the grantee himself while traveling in
suit of his investigation . Grants are not ordinarily available for travel to
fessional society meetings or conferences or for purposes of books and ma
scripts . Grants will not be given to subsidize the preparation of textbook
 the publication of books or articles or to provide income in lieu of salary .
   Fellowships will be selected on the basis of their actual and prospective acc
plishments in formulating and testing hypotheses concerning social behavio
empirical and, if possible, quantitative methods .
  Now, I don't mean to imply that there is anything categorica
wrong in such a statement, but I do wish to point out that it does te
in the direction of giving the people in the field the impression t
unless research involves statistical computation, then they don't ha
much chance of getting a grant. Now, perhaps that impression is
correct . It may well be incorrect . I just say that the impression d
spread, so that if it does occur to you to ask for a grant to make
broader study of the history of the development of social science
something of that sort, then after having read such things you
likely to be discouraged .
  It may be your own fault. Perhaps if you had gone ahead
requested you would have obtained it . I am just saying that atm
phere is created and I think the foundations themselves would reg
that this is the situation and would probably be willing to do whate
they can to change that atmosphere to create one which everybo
appreciates they are interested in, broader types of research inste
of this particular empirical one .
   Mr. WoRMsnx . Isn't the term "comptometer compulsion" used?
  Dr. HoBBs . I have used it facetiously and unkindly to describe
extremes of this empirical research where comptometers and simi
machines are substitutes for actual experience with people and actu
study of the philosophy of science and the history of peoples
so on .
  Mr. WORMSER . Dr . Hobbs, in connection with one subject you d
cussed, that the foundations support a type of research which you ca
scientism, which sometimes penetrates' the political area, do you ha
any opinion that any of the foundations themselves encourage go
into the political scene?
  Dr. HoBBs . Certainly, that type of thing is indicated repeate
throughout one of the books that I mentioned yesterday, in Stu
Chase's The Proper Study of Mankind .
  In addition here is a report of the Social Science Research Counc
annual' report, 1928-29, in which they have what I would consider
be quite an extreme statement, but perhaps there is some other exp
nation of it . They have a listing of their history and purposes of
Social Science Research Council, and one of these purposes is th
a sounder empirical method of research had to be achieved in political scie
if it were to assist in the development of a scientific political control.
  Mr. HAYS. Is that bad?
  Dr. HOBBS . It could he. The implications that you are going to
control political
  Mr. HAYS. They say "on a sounder." In other words, the inference
is there that they recognize it is not very sound.
  Dr. HOBBS (reading)
  A sounder empirical method of research to assist in the development of a
scientific political control .
  If you are talking in terms of scientific political control, it would
seem to me that you are going to hand over government to these
social scientists . That seems to be the implication .
  Mr. HAYS . Do you teach political science at all?
  Dr. HOBBS . No, Sir.
   Mr. HAYS. I assume you have taken some courses in it?
  Dr . HOBBS . Yes, Sir .
  Mr. HAYS. Have you ever had any practical experience in politics?
   Dr . HOBBS . No, sir .
  Mr. HAYS. Let me say that I have a minor in political science .from
Ohio State and they have a very fine political science department
there.
   But in the past few years in politics, I found out that it has very
little relation if any to either science or politics. They do teach you
a lot about government and Constitution and the government of the
various other nations and the difference between our constitutional
form of government and the British parliamentary form of govern-
ment, for instance ; but ever since I can remember it has been called
political science and that would be, I suppose, under some of the
definitions we have used here, a very bad and misleading term . Yet
it is one that is used all the time.
   Dr . HOBBS. So long as there is understanding that it is different
from science as the term is used in connection with the physical
sciences .
   In your training in political science you are apparently getting the
type of broad background which I referred to earlier . I think that
is desirable . Not only desirable, but essential . If, in your training,
your teachers had been trained only in this empirical method, then
your training in political science would have been predominantly,
perhaps solely, studies of how to make opinion polls and the tech-
niques of statistical computation and examination of the results and
things along those empirical lines .
   Mr. HAYS. Do you mean to say, then, Doctor, that there are uni-
versities that are teaching their students in political science nothing
but how to take polls, and so forth?
   Dr . HOBBS. I do not. I say political science is not my field . My
field is sociology . In sociology, there are, I am sorry to say, some
institutions where there is a definite movement in that direction, and
where this empirical type of thing has assumed a proportion which
is way out of balance considering the general things that people
should know about human behavior .
   Mr. HAYS. I believe you have frankly said yesterday you didn't
think that sociology was, very much of a science .
that.
  Mr. HAYS . I didn't mean to imply that . I think it has great valu
But it is a subject that you can't study and say, "this is it, these ar
the conclusions and they don't vary ."
  Dr. HOBBS . That is correct, sir.
  Mr. HAYS. It is something that you can only approximate .
  Dr. HOBBS. You get as much data as you can and you generaliz
about it, but you should always avoid giving the impression that thi
is the final scientific answer to any important area of human behavio
Always leave open the possibility of alternative explanations .
  Mr . HAYS . Then, as I get it, your criticism broadly has been tha
there is a tendency among these empiricists, if we can use that term
to try to tie this down as a definite thing and say these are the answers
and there are no variables?
  Dr. HoBBS . There is, I would say, a definite and in my opinion a
unfortunate tendency in that direction, to the degree that it has over
balanced and overshadowed a more nearly rounded study of huma
behavior and societies .
  Mr. HAYS . You don't think there is anything that the Congress ca
do about that except bring it to the attention of the people .
  Dr. HoBBS . Of the foundations, and I would guess they would b
probably not only willing but anxious to do what they could to modif
this and avoid it .
  Mr. WORMSER . Dr. Hobbs, there is one other subject I wish yo
would discuss, please, in your own way, and that is what is calle
moral relativity-the tendency of this inaccurate or unbalanced typ
of research to have perhaps an undermining effect on moral standard
  Dr. HoBBS. In this type of empirical approach, by definition yo
must attempt to reduce the things you are studying to the type o
units which I indicated yesterday, to quantitative units, which ar
measurable. By the very nature of the approach, therefore, yo
exclude intangibles, such as sentiments, love, romance, devotion, o
other tangibles, such as patriotism, honesty, and things of that typ
  So if it is strictly empirical, then the behavior involved is reduce
to cold quantitative items which are important, perhaps, but whic
if presented alone give a very distorted picture of love or sex o
patriotism or whatever else the topic may be .
  Mr. WORMSER. Is it analogous, perhaps . to use a syllogism withou
including all the premises? The missing premises being moral code
and basic principles of government and so forth .
   Dr . HOBBS. It would be analogous to that . I would say that in th
context of the scientific method it is using just one of the element
instead of including all of the elements which should be involved
That is unfortunate .
  Mr. WORMSER . Unless the committee has further question, I woul
like Dr. Hobbs to conclude in whatever way he wishes, himself, if h
has any further material to offer .
  Mr. HAYS . Before we go any further, how many questions I wil
have depends on whether on not somebody is going to be brought in
by the staff to present the other point of view . Because I am confidan
that there must be another point of view . If we are going to be objec
tive, I would like to hear from somebody on the other side .
am going to try to develop the other side right here so we can be r
ob)' ective.
   Mr. WORMSER. I can answer that by saying that we will certainly
ask the Social Science Research Council to appear and I would assume
that they would present the other side of the case .
   Mr. HAYS . You say you are going to ask the Social Science Research
Council ; that is a kind of intangible body, isn't it? .
   Mr. WoRMSER . If you wish to designate its representative, we will
call him.
   Mr. HAYS . I don't know anybody in the Social Science Research
Council any more than I didn't know Dr . Hobbs until now .
   The CHAIRMAN. You have in mind calling someone who is a rep-
resentative of the official body of the research council?
   Mr. WORMSER . Yes. I would normally call the president . If the
committee would prefer to have someone else called, I would do it .
   The CHAIRMAN. Someone from their own section?
   Mr . WORMSER. Yes, I told them that .
   The CHAIRMAN . Likewise, in due time the representatives of the
foundations, I assume, of various foundations, will also be called?
   Mr. WoRMSER . Yes .
   The CHAIRMAN . So there is certainly no predisposition to have only
one viewpoint presented .
   Mr. HAYS . Are we planning to call in the representatives of these
foundations or invite them in?
   Mr. KocH . I would think we would ask them first whether they
would want to present their case. If none of them did, and I would
rather doubt that, then I suppose we would have to get someone to
present the other side ourselves . I would guess that the foundations
would be only too anxious to present their best spokesmen .
   Mr. WORMSER . Mr. Hays, may I amplify that by saying that I have
had conferences with the attorneys, I think, for most of the major
foundations, and in each case have told them that while we might ask.
an individual from the foundation, including the Social Science Re-
search Council, to appear for a particular piece of testimony, that we
had no objection whatsoever to their designating their own representa-
tive to testify .
   Mr. HAYS . The reason for that question is simply this : At dinner
last night with some friends of mine, one of whom spent an hour or two,
in the hearing yesterday, the subject came up about this, and this
gentleman said, "I understand that up to now the foundations think
that this has been so insignificant that they are just going to ignore
it altogether ." If they take that attitude, then I suppose we will
only get one side of it .
   Mr. KOCH. Mr. Hays, can we leave it this way : If they elect to
ignore, we can then perhaps recall Professor Hobbs and you can cross-
examine him at that time .
  Mr. HAYS. That would be all right . I do have some questions to
ask him . But I don't want to go into a lengthy day or two on it .
  Mr. WORMSER . You don't want to ask them now?
  Mr. HAYS . Yes, I sure do.
   Mr. WoRMSER . If you want to, ask them now by all means . I am.
sure Dr. Hobbs would be glad to come back on reasonable notice .
     49720-54-pt . 1	12
session this morning. If you will bear with me for a moment, I mi
review what I said at the opening of the hearing in connection wi
the method of presentation : That the committee staff was makin
presentation and then others would be called in who were represent
tive of the other viewpoint, and also the foundations themselves wou
be invited to come .
  So far as my own feeling is concerned-I have discussed this wi
counsel-I would say it is not altogether within the discretion of t
foundations to decide whether they should or should not come, becau
we have only one thing in mind, and that is a complete, objectiv
and thorough study .
  Mr. HAYS. I understand that anybody can be subpenaed .
  The CHAIRMAN . Yes.
  Mr. HAYS . I didn't want to prevent you, Doctor, from makin
final statement .
  Dr. HOBBS . No, sir. I had completed the things that I wanted
take up .
  Mr. HAYS . You have completed your statement?
  Dr. HOBBS . Yes, Sir .
  Mr. HAYS . One of the things I would like to ask you-of cour
understand in the very begining that I don't care what your answe
are, I only want your opinion because I am interested since you ha
given your opinion on a variety of things, and I would like to ha
it on some that we have not touched upon so we get a well-rounded a
balanced picture-and one of the things I would like to ask you is thi
In Mr . Dodd's opening statement he said one of the things-an
am not quoting exactly, but he left a very definite impression-th
one of the things wrong with foundations, and I will quote, is : "T
they are willing to support experiments in fields that defy contro
  Do you think that is a fault?
  Dr. HOBBS . Assuming that that was the substance of his stat
ment
  Mr . HAYS . I am quoting exactly, "That they have been willing
support experiments in fields that defy control ."
   Dr . HOBBS . It is true that in any study of the significant aspe
of human behavior, such as criminality, juvenile delinquency, politic
behavior, the studies are such that they defy control, in the, sense th
there are intangibles involved which, no matter how conscientious y
are in making the study, these intangibles still remain .
   The word "control" in scientific investigation means that you
able to control, to measure the significant variables, and that no ot
variables can come into the investigation to significantly influen
the results .
  That is not the case with studies of human behavior .
  Mr. HAYS . That is right . But any field, unless it is complet
comprehended-and I don't know that there is any such field-and a
research into the unknown would probably defy control, would it no
   Dr . HOBBS. But there is a, difference in the usage of the term .
physicist can make a study which is a complete controlled study . H
study may be one which involves the weight of matter . He may a
can create conditions under which he has to all intents and purpo
  Mr. HAYS . It is probably unfortunate . All right, we will agree
with that. But you would not suggest that we just abandon all experi-
ment because we can't control?
  Dr. HOBBS. By no means .
  Mr. HAYS. I don't want to ask you any leading questions, but would
you or would you not suggest that the foundations just refuse to make
any grants in that field because it does defy control
  Dr. . HOBBS . If that were the case, then they would have to go out
of business so far as the social sciences are concerned . I think that
would be undesirable, that grants should be made and efforts should
be made in all directions, but I do think there should be more of a
balance than there is at present .
   Of course, when these things are done, then the results should be
stated in very heavily qualified terms, particularly if the title "science"
is applied to the investigation.
  Mr. HAYS . Then to sum up the main part of your criticism-and I
am trying now only to find out if I am right in my thinking-you
object mainly to the use of the term "science" in connection with these
things that are not exact because it is a misleading term .
  Dr. HOBBS . Extremely misleading . The people in general, I believe,
when they hear the word "science" think in terms of the physical
sciences which have been so tremendously successful . It is unfor-
tunate, therefore ; that when they hear social science or read that this
is a scientific study of delinquency or a scientific study of sexual
behavior, they are given the impression that this is the final defini-
tive word, that there is no alternative possibility, that the condition
in short is the same as it would be with an investigation in physical
science:
   Mr. HAYS . Doctor, do you think it is possible to have a scientific
study of delinquency'?
  Dr. HOBBS . Again in the sense that you have scientific studies of
matter and energy, the answer would have to be "No." There have
been some efforts-and I would say very commendable efforts-made
to increase the degree of control involved in the study . That is by
conducting studies such as the one made by, for example, Sheldon
and Eleanor Ghieck .
  In their studies of delinquency they attempted to reduce the vari-
ables by going to slum areas and picking 500 boys who were delin-
quents and serious delinquents . They were not just one-time offenders
or incidental mischievous children, they were serious delinquents ;
and then from the same slum area they picked out another 500 boys
who were not delinquents .
   Already they have exerted some element of control over one of the
possible variables, that is, the environmental conditions, the slum
conditions. All of the boys came from slum areas .
  Then, further, they matched the delinquent boys with the other
500 boys as for age, as for their school record, as for their I. Q. as
for their nationality background, the income of their parents, anc~ in
this manner they attempted to reduce the number of variables in-
volved in the situation to arrive at what would be called a controlled
study to the degree that you can call studies in social science con-
trolled.
that had been held on the basis of earlier studies which were mad
and which were empirical about delinquency .
   Mr. HAYS. Of course, that is the way down through the ages . W
have found out what little we know about things, that is, by tria
and error more or less .
   Dr. HOBBS . Yes. As long as we understand that it is trial and erro
then that is, of course, perfectly acceptable . But when we are give
the impression that this is science, and final and definitive, irrefu
table, unchallengeable, that is another situation .
   Mr. HAYS. Do you think there is a possibility about your fear
that this is so firmly imbedded in the minds of the public migh
be exaggerated?
   Dr. HOBBS . Sir, it is not a fear . It is a concern.
   Mr. HAYS. I won't quibble with you about adjectives or verbs
   Mr. HAYS. Do you think there is a possibility that your fear
or concern, you use your own terminology, but do you think ther
is a possibility that you are more concerned about it than maybe i
necessary?
   Dr. HOBBS. That is always possible .
   Mr. HAYS. To ro back to your book that you cited yesterday, thi
                   h
book by Stuart CTase.
   Dr. HOBBS. Yes, Sir.
   Mr. HAYS . What was the title of that again?
   Dr. HOBBS . "The Proper Study of Mankind ."
   Mr. HAYS. It is not a very appealing title.
   Dr. HOBBS . The title is taken from a poem by Alexander Pope
   Mr. HAYS. You seemed to indicate to me that this book, The Prop
Study of Mankind, had exerted a rather undesirable influence . Am
right in assuming that?
  Dr. HOBBS. As to the influence of the study, of course, there is n
way of measuring that. You cannot tell when someone reads a boo
the degree to which they have been influenced by it . I cited it as
illustration wherein foundations had encouraged and promoted th
impression that social science is identical or virtually identical wit
physical science.
   Mr. HAYS. The thing that I am a little concerned about is that
don't think very many people have read that book and if that is so,
dont' think it could exert much influence one way or another . I hav
been toying with this every since yesterday . I have a 15-minute tele
vision show every Saturday night in my district and it covers part
of three States . If there was some way. to advertise that I was goin
to offer a prize and be sure the thing would not be loaded, I woul
like to offer $50 to the first person who called in and told me that th
read that book in those three States . I don't know how many peopl
listen to it, but I am sure if we put it in the papers at $50 I would ge
a good-sized audience . Maybe no one watches it, I don't know .
   The CHAIRMAN. It depends on how much time you give them.
  Mr. HAYS . I don't want to sell the book . I would have to give the
them a time limit.
   The point I am making, and I don't come from exactly an illiterat
part of the country-Pittsburgh and Wheeling and Steubenville an
Youngstown and other cities in Ohio--is that I would be almost will
involved .
   Mr. HAYS. Would that be empirical?
   Dr . HOBBS. I suggest, sir, if you are concerned and think this is an
important point that some of the staff might write to the publishers
.and perhaps they would release the sales figures .
   Mr. HAYS. We have already made that request of the staff and they
will get that . The thing was belabored pretty extensively yesterday,
I thought, and I just wondered if it was not given an importance out
-of all comparison with what it deserves .
   Mr. WORMSER . Mr . Hays, may I ask in that same question : Do you
suppose, Dr . Hobbs, that it has been widely read among academic
circles where its influence might be great?
   Dr. HOBBS . From my own experience I know that it was widely
read. I would judge that it was generally widely read in academic
 circles where, of course, that would be the crucial point-how much
young and naive scholars were influenced by this point of view .
   Mr. WoRMSER . I think Mr. Hays would agree that they were prob-
ably reading it in the libraries rather than buying copies .
   Dr. HoBBs . You miglit check that also .
   Mr . HAYS . I am embarrassed to bring this up but I have been won-
dering after the last campaign whether they had much influence any-
way. You know there was ridicule, and they developed a term called
 eggheads which I deplored, and an anti-intellectual thing . If you
showed any interest you were immediately labeled with there being
something a little queer about you . In fact they almost sold the
 slogan so well they had some people afraid to admit that they even
knew a college professor rather than listen to one .
   The CHAIRMAN . I assume you are not familiar with the origin of
the eggheads?
   Mr . HAYS . I don't know which one of the hucksters came up with it,
 fir§t, but I imagine it was the same one that came up with the slogan
"dynamic foreign policy ." I could mention some more .
   Doctor Hobbs, you have expressed various criticisms of social sci-
ence and I am sure you are far more of an expert in that field than I am .
I find it a little hard to make a judgment on what you said . I certainl
respect your opinions in view of your academic background, but
would like to try to tie down a little of this if I can .
   Do you feel that the Congress has any business in tryingg to pass
j udgment on the questions of scientific method and the validity of
scientific work?
   Dr. HoBBS. Generally, I would say no . I can't conceive of a situa-
 tion at the moment or on the spot       ere that would be desirable.
   The CHAIRMAN . Will the gentleman yield?
   Mr. HAYS . Sure .
   The CHAIRMAN . I feel myself that Congress should not .
   My general concern with this question and related questions is that
 Congress or the Government through the funds which it has made
 available to the foundations by relieving them .of payment of taxes,
 not be used to do the same thing that Congress would not do, and that
 it would not be proper for Congress to do .
    Mr. HAYS . Doctor, in view of your last statement, I suppose this
 question is almost superfluous, but to get it in the record I will ask you.
you think is not good in some cases?
   Dr . HOBBS . I don't want to give the impression that they are n
good in that sense, but I did try to emphasize in a number of instance
and I think they have been important ones, they have encroach
and they have encouraged encroachment into areas where, in the pre
ent state of the development of the social sciences, they should n
encroach except with many, many qualifications as to their findin
  Mr. HAYS . In other words, then, the main thing is that you say
ahead and make these experiments, but qualify your findings so n
body can misunderstand them ?
  Dr. HOBBS . That is correct .
  Mr. HAYS. That might be a little tough . But at least so they won
get the wrong impression about them .
  Dr. HOBBS . That is correct .
  Mr. HAYS . To get back to the question, Do you feel that Congre
should take some specific action about this, or that we should just l
these hearings perhaps stand as a sort of danger signal?
  Dr. HOBBS . My feeling would be that ideally the foundations shoul
with the advice and with the information coming out of hearings li
this, that they themselves should take the initiative to determine
there are excesses in one direction or another and to try, I would s
more than they have in the past, to keep things in balance and n
to go overweight in one direction, such as empiricism ; that they sho
try themselves to keep a better balance than they seem to have done
the past and at present . .
  Mr. HAYS . In other words, yyou think then that any policing that
done should be done by the foundations themselves, and not by t
Congress?
  Dr. HOBBS . If it is a matter of policing, I would say yes . Of cours
when you get excesses and if there is a definite effort to influence la
such as has been indicated, then I think properly Members of Con
gress, to whom this prerogative is delegated, should be somewh
concerned .
  Mr. HAYS . But you don't have any specific recommendations
make at this moment about any laws that we should pass?
  Dr. HOBBS . I am not a legislator, sir . I would not ; no.
  Mr. HAYS. I realize that, and I didn't want to put you on t
spot. But the usual idea, when you have a congressional investigatio
the ultimate thing, if it comes to any conclusion at all that anythi
is wrong, is that there should be some remedial action taken .
  You have indicated, at least, that you think there are some thin
that are wrong but you don't think that they are so badly wro
that Congress ought to pass a law about it .
  Dr. HOBBS . I certainly think a great deal of thought should
given . I can't conceive, as I indicated before, how such a law cou
be drawn up without restricting investigation in some area or oth
  Mr. HAYS . In other words, stifling further education and researc
  Dr . HOBBS. Yes, Sir.
  Mr. HAYS . That is exactly what I am afraid of .
  Dr. HOBBS. I think that would be undesirable .
  Mrs . PFOST . I would like to ask, Dr . Hobbs, do you think it wou
be proper or don't you think it would, that this committee call oth
   Dr. HOBBS . Absolutely .
   Mrs . PFOST. Also, I would like to ask you, Dr. Hobbs, do you think
any of this tax-free money is being channeled into needless projects?
   Dr. HOBBS . You want my opinion?
   Mrs . PFOST. Yes.
   Dr. HOBBS . Absolutely .
   Mrs . PFOST . If I understand you correctly, a little while ago, you
made the statement that you felt that the foundations should direct
their studies in a more diversified field . How do you feel that they
could better balance-how, can they set about better balancing their
field of study?
   Dr . HOBBS. As I indicated, there is, or at least at present there seems
  to be to me and to other academic people, this atmosphere that
the foundations are primarily interested only in this empirical ap-
proach . They, on their own initiative, could make efforts to dispel
that atmosphere and to correct it, if it is erroneous, or to correct the
situation if it does exist, through their circulars and advertising and
through letters which are sent to universities, emphasizing that they
are interested in all types of approaches .
   Mrs. PFOST. Thank you very much .
   Mr. HAYS. Dr . Hobbs, yesterday you talked at considerable length
about the influence of certain social scientists-is that the term you
used-on the Army?
   Dr. HOBBS . Social scientists .
   Mr. HAYS . I made the point yesterday I thought, and I don't wish
to put a mantle around my shoulders and say I am a prophet, but
I pointed out yesterday that whatever else you said, Dr . Kinsey
would get top billing . That seems to have been the case in a few press
notices I read this morning.
   But to me the most important charge you made, or the most serious
one, I will put it that way, is the charge you made-that the social
scientists had more or less tampered with the workings of the Army
to the detriment of the country.
   Dr. HOBBS . I did not make that in the form of a charge . I made
statements from the books themselves and did indicate in making those
statements that this apparently, from the evidence, was a definite con-
flict between military policy on the part of the Army and social-science
approach on the part of the social scientists involved .
   Mr. HAYS . Let me say here that I don't want to put words in your
mouth . If you didn't make a charge against the Army, I don't want
to imply that you did.
   Dr . HOBBS . I did emphasize that there was a conflict ; yes, sir.
   Mr. HAYS . But the impression was very definitely left with me that
it was in the nature rather of a charge or indictment or whatever you
want to call it . At least it seemed to me to be rather serious. Just ex-
actly what did you mean to imply?
   Dr . HOBBS . I meant to imply that here was a situation involving an
extremely important military principle . That within this situation
there was a conflict . On the one hand you had the military, on the
other hand the social scientists . This they admit repeatedly through-
out their work .
advocated by the military . They succeeded in doing this, resulting
the point system of discharge, a discharge which, according to the mil
tary side, was undesirable .
   Mr. HAYS . Doctor, you say there that on the one side was the A
and on the other side was social science . That is two sides .
   How many sides does this thing have? To me it must have at lea
one more . Maybe it was a triangle, I don't know, but there is a s
 that it seems to me on which there were millions of people in th
country and the way you define it, if there were only two sides th
they were not on the side of the Army as you speak of the word .
    By the Army I assume is meant what is commonly called arou
 here the "high brass," or the people who run it .
   Dr . HOBBS . That expression' there were two sides" is from the bo
itself.
   Mr. HAYS . Wouldn't you say that in addition to the social sci
tists, there were about 6 million soldiers-maybe the figure is
high-maybe only 5 million wanted to be discharged, I don't kno
But at the time it seemed to me like they all did . If there wer
million soldiers there were probably 12 million fathers and mothe
more or less and I don't know how many million sisters and brothe
and other relatives, but I distinctly remember they were all on th
side, too .
   Do you agree or not?
   Dr. HOBBS . That is probably true, but if military policy is to
based on the wishes of the individual members of the military servic
then you are going to have a very, very interesting -sort of Army, Nav
Air Force and Marine Corps .
   Mr. HAYS . I agree with you . Probably more interesting than
have ever had . But in a democracy how else would you have the Ar
directed? Are you going to set it up a little sacrosanct outfit whi
does whatever it pleases without regard to the wishes of the people?
you do that you don't have a democracy, do you?
   Dr. HoBBS. That is correct. But within a military organization
definition you do not have democracy . It is necessary to have ra
within a military organization . It is necessary definitely to deleg
responsibility and authority .
   Mr. HAYS . As I understand it, the decision had been made that
are going to have to demobilize some of these men . We can't ke
them all . It is not necessary to keep them all. We can't afford
keep them all . The public won't stand for us to keep them all.
of those factors entered in .
   Do I understand you to say that it is bad to ask these men, we a
going to demobilize part of you, would you want to give us yo
opinion of how you would like to have it done? Do you think th
is bad per se?
   Dr . HOBBS . I made the point, or tried to delineate the differences
some of the differences between physical science and social scienc
that one of the differences was that the very fact that you attem
to make a study may influence the attitudes, the opinions, the behav
of the persons who are involved in it .
   In this particular situation, there is the possibility-and I wou
say the likelihood-that when members of the military service a
warned against, when they are given the impression that they are to
have the decision about important matters of strategy and military
policy, then there is always the possibility that you create disaffection .
   would say that is a real possibility . It could have turned out that
the technique accepted and used was desirable . That could have
happened.
.. As it did turn out in the perspective of history, it was, let us say,
at least questionable from a military point of view .
   Mr. HAYS. Don't say "let us say." You say it.
   Dr. HOBBS . I would say it was definitely questionable .
   Mr. HAYS. That is your opinion?
   Dr. HOBBS . It is my opinion .
   Mr. HAYS . Yes. That is a very interesting thing, and I am just
curious to know how would you have gone about demobilizing these
people if you didn't use the point system, if you personally had the
decision to make?
   Dr. HOBBS . If I had the decision to make-you want to make me
Secretary of War for the moment I
   Mr. HAYS. I will want to make you anything you want . You made
yourself something in criticizing it . So take the same title and tell
us what you would have done in place of what you say was wrong.
   Dr. HOBBS. In the situation which apparently existed the military
did know or feel that there was good reason for not disbanding the
combat veterans, for maintaining intact, efficient, effective combat
units .
   The social scientist on the other hand did not feel that same way .
   I suspect, without knowing, from reading it, that the military was
worried and concerned about possible Russian encroachment in
Europe, a condition which did eventuate . The social scientist was
concerned only with his small area and did not know of that pos-
sibility. By the very nature of the study, you see, it was something
that they could not include . That is the type of hazard that you
encounter.
   I don't mean to imply that these men were stupid, evil, or vicious
or anything of that kind ; they are very capable men, all of them .
Technically the studies were very good . My main point which I tried
to stress is that when you enter an area and use the weight and prestige
of social science you are encountering possible hazards-in this case,
military hazards .
   Mr. HAYS. Doctor, they used a similar system in Korea right at
the time the fighting was going on, didn't they? They called it a
rotation system . They were constantly pulling men out of units and
putting them back and replacing them with other men.
   I want to say very frankly I certainly recognize your right to your
opinion, but I don't see anything bad in bringing a man back home
who has risked his life repeatedy and let someone else assume that
gamble for a little while because if the combat veterans stay indefi-
nitely, it seems to me you have a chance of upsetting their morale,
because they will say, "Well, we have two alternatives--one of them
is that we stay here and get killed eventually and the other one is
that we stay here and get killed tomorrow."
 in sufficient strength so that they could combat a possible military mo
 on the part of some potential enemy, in this case, of course, Russi
    Mr. HAYS . I don't think the decision to keep them intact or no
 to keep them intact-I insist-was made b any group of soci
 scientists . It was made right here about a block away, under th
 dome.
    Dr . HOBBS . As I pointed Qut in citing from the book, there was t
 point that. the military did desire to keep the units intact . The soci
 scientists did not .
   Mr. HAYS . Would you agree with that statement? The militar
 especially from the rank of lieutenant colonel on up, would desire t
 keep them intact forevermore? I never found a colonel or lieutena
 colonel or a general who thought that the country was not in imminen
 danger of destruction if you let one out . Whether or not it ha
 anything to do with the fact that you have to have so many thousan
 men to have so many dozen colonels, I don't know . But that is t
 attitude they seem to take.
   Dr . HOBBS. I have had some experience with the military, also
 In my experience, I found the people-of course, military life is thei
 specialty and career-they are concerned with it much more tha
 nonprofessional military personnel . I did not find in my experienc
 the degree of dogmatic affirmation that we will maintain armies a
 the largest size, we will maintain navies at their fullest strength
 regardless and in complete disregard of any military threat, imagi
 nary or real, and regardless of the interests of the entire country .
do not find that in my experience .
   Mr. HAYS . I overemphasized the thing perhaps and exaggerate
I am sure that you did not find that the case .
   Will you agree that 99 percent of the time whenever there is a cu
suggested that you immediately ran into resistance in the high com
mand? That is a perfectly normal human tendency . I am no
saying they are awful people .
   Dr. HOBBS. On the part of all of us when it comes to things we ar
interested in and seriously concerned with, of course that is very tru
   Mr. HAYS . I have found that with social workers.
   Dr. HOBBS . Of course, sir, it was true also of the social scientist
who were so concerned with their methods and techniques that they
too, overworked the military side of the situation .
   Mr. HAYS . In other words, two little empires there kind of clashe
head on?
   Dr . HOBBS . That is right .
   Mr. HAYS . And one wanted this and the other wanted something
else . That is an interesting thing that you brought up, and I thought
it was worthy of some development .
   I again want you to repeat what I understood you to say, that yo
don't think there was any bad or deliberate plot on their part t
destroy the Army .
   Dr. HoBS . I have absolutely no knowledge, I read nothing to tha
effect, I didn't mean to imply it .
 . Mr. HAYS . In other words, they thought this is the way it shoul
be done and they were firm in their belief and they pressed forwar
with it.
   I have 1 or 2 other questions, Doctor, and then I will be through .
   Someone once made the statement-and I can't quote who it was-
that the scholar who has never made a mistake has never made a
discovery or a correction . Would you be inclined to agree with that?
   Dr . HOBBS . Yes, Sir.
   Mr. HAYS. Then going back to this business of having controls over
 research, research that is valuable is going to occasionally stray off
 into fields where it is going to make mistaken conclusions and mis-
taken decisions and so on and so forth, would you agree that is true?
   Dr . HOBBS . Yes, Sir .
   Mr. HAYS. Do you have any specific suggestion as to how these
foundations might prevent more than a minimum number of mistakes?
 I mean do you have any suggestion as to how they should tighten up
their grant -gIving machinery? You are more familiar with founda-
tions than I . We have admitted that they are going to make some
mistakes . That is almost inevitable, is it not?
   Dr. HOBBS . Yes, Sir .
   Mr. HAYS. The desirable thing would be to keep those mistakes to
a minimum .
   Dr. HOBBS . Yes, Sir.
   Mr. HAYS. I ask this very kindly. I am only trying to get some
light on the subject . Do you have any suggestion?
   Dr. HOBBS. One suggestion I made before would be that they em-
phasize that they do not wish to concentrate research and studies
within the empirical area to a disproportionate degree and to thereby
exclude or seriously minimize other important areas of study .
   Another suggestion would be that they be much more careful than
they have been in the past in encroaching on large and significant
areas of human behavior, such as the military area where you can say
it is all right to make a mistake, but with high military policy perhaps
one mistake is the only chance you get . It may be your last mistake .
   In this area any findings which are arrived at should be presented
very tentatively and with many, many reservations and qualifications
and not pushed to the degree which the findings in connection with
the point system of discharge were apparently pushed from reading
the book.
   Mr. HAYS. You say a mistake in a military decision might be your
last mistake. Did I understand you to say that?
   Dr. HOBBS . It could be in a military situation .
   Mr. HAYS . Whether it came about as a result of an empirical study
or ]ust somebody's decision, that-could be true?
   Dr. HOBBS . That is correct .
   Mr. HAYS . So if we make a mistake about the ultimate decision on
what we do in Southeast Asia, while it might not necessarily be our last
mistake, it might be our next to the last?
   Dr . HOBBS . That is correct.
   Mr. HAYS . So we are getting right back, as I see it, to the funda-
mental conclusion that I think we are going to have to arrive at, and
that is, that human beings are susceptible to mistakes and in the situ-
ation we are now we better not make too many .
   Dr . HOBBS. Yes, sir, but with this additional factor : That when
your decision is based on studies which are purportedly scientific, then
the impression is infallible. So you create quite a different situat
 from the necessary and desirable difference of opinion between ind
viduals or between members of the military and civilians, where t
differences can be weighed and ironed out on their own level of mer
 You don't have the injection of this factor which seems to be the fi
and decisive ultimate factor . I think that is a significant differen
   Mr . HAYS . I think you and I are in complete agreement on th
point . In other words, you don't like an attempt to wrap a cloak
infallibility around them and say this is it .
   Dr. HOBBS . Exactly .
   Mr. HAYS . That is a tendency not only of social science, and I
being strictly nonpolitical when I say this, that has been the tenden
of recent Secretaries of State we have had too . They sort of
a mantle of infallibility on and say whatever decision I come to is ri
and this is it, and I don't want you to question it . That is a sho
coming that is confined not only to social scientists .
   Dr. HOBBS. No, Sir . But you always have the factor of the prest
of science involved . You can argue about a decision of a Secretary
State on political bases, on bases of knowledge of history, on bases
knowledge of the foreign situation, and on many grounds you c
justifiably argue a decision of that type .
   Mr. HAYS . Mr. Wormser, there is a question you asked there th
I thought ought to be developed a little more and I don't recall, sin
I don't have the transcript here, the exact wording of it . It had to
with the foundations going into political fields . You asked it ear
in the testimony .
   Mr. WORMSER . You mean today?
   Mr. HAYS . Yes. Do you have a list of the questions you ask
there?
   The CHAIRMAN. While he is thinking about that, may I ask o
question with reference to your suggestion .?
   With reference to these suggestions that the foundations mig
follow to improve the situation, do you feel that any of the found
tions have exercised sufficient care in selecting the key personnel, or
the boards of trustees have exercised sufficient care and responsibili
in considering the recommendations of the personnel of the staff
   Dr. Hosss . I am afraid that I wouldn't be qualified to give
opinion on that . I have made no separate study of foundations a
their personnel . I just wouldn't know .
   Mr. WoRMSER. Mr. Hays, I don't recall the exact question, but
think what you are referring to was this : I had in my mind that th
is some evidence that foundations have to some extent conscious
determined to enter the political field in this sense : That soci
scientists should be assigned the job, let us say, of directing socie
and of telling us what is best for us. I asked some question whi
related to that, bringing out the political field itself . I think
Hobbs then quoted something from the report of the Social Scien
Research Council .
   Is that what you mean?
   Mr. HAYS . Yes, I think that had to do with it . Maybe we c
develop what I was thinking about without having the exact langua
I thought if you had it there it would be helpful .
to any great extent?
   Dr . HOBBS . That would be difficult to determine . Political influ-
ence, as you know much, much better than I, involves many, many
intangibles as to what does influence people politically one way or
another . Have some of the findings influenced political attitudes?
I would say that is likely . But again, to measure it and to say exactly
how much and precisely in what direction, I would be at a loss to say .
   Mr. HAYS . Do you think they have gone into it in any significant
way or to any great extent?
   Dr. HOBBS . Certainly not directly . That is, not in any sense of a
lobby or anything of that type, to my knowledge .
   Mr. HAYS . If they have gone in at all, then, with the exception
of perhaps some who sponsor radio programs and political figures,
they have gone into it in a rather subtle way?
   Dr . HOBBS . That could be the case . I don't know the specific situa-
tion which you refer to . I have never heard that program . I don't
know .
   Mr. HAYS. I don't want to show here that I am accusing them-and
we are speaking now, of course, of Facts Forum-of anything, but
I have had a lot of complaints about them, especially even prior to the
time of these hearings, and a great volume of letters since then.
   To be perfectly fair I have had a few which say they are all right.
So all I am interested in with regard to that particular organization
is finding out whether they are biased or whether they are not . I
want to make it clear here, which apparently it has not been in some
people's minds, that if they are biased, they still have a perfect right
to go on the air ; but they don't have any right to go on with tax-exempt
funds.
   Dr. HOBBS . I would agree with that.
   Mr. HAYS . They have a right to their opinion, certainly . They
can be just as biased as they want to as long as they are using their
own money without any tax exemption .
   Mr. Koca . Mr. Hays, I am glad you brought up that point. You
mentioned earlier this morning that one of the principal purposes of
 a committee such as this is to find out whether legislation might be
necessary or whether present legislation should be amended .
   I think after the representative of the Internal Revenue Depart-
ment testifies, I think, next week, you will find that his department has
difficulty in determining Just what is propaganda and what is designed
to influence legislation . We hope to present to the committee samples
 of various types of propaganda, including Facts Forum, and various
 types of efforts to influence legislation, and maybe at the end of these
 hearings we can define this a little bit better for the aid of the tax
 department.
   Mr. HAYS . I would say to you, that I am sure that it must be a very
 difficult proposition. I am sure it must be just as difficult as there
 are points of view . When you use the word "propaganda"-and
 I think we ought to make that definitive here-the word "propaganda"
 itself has come to have a sort of undesirable connotation .
    In the strict sense it can be good propaganda as well as bad. I
 suppose whether it is good or bad depends on your point of view and
 whether or not you agree with it . That would be somewhat of a
 determining factor.
 some of the types of propaganda will shock us . If we can defin
 better the tax department will have an easier time .
    Mr. WORMSER . Mr. Hays, I can now give you your statistic t
 you ask for . Roughly 50,000 copies of Stuart Chase's book have b
 sold, which happens to be more than the aggregate sales of the 8 bo
 which I have written .
    Mr. HAYS . All I can say is that if he sold 50,000 copies with t
 title, if he jazzed up the title a little he could have probably s
 half a million . Whoever merchandised that book did not d
good job.
   Mr. Kocx . I would like to have Mr . Wormser give us the names
his eight books.
   Mr. HAYS . I think we ought to get a plug in for him and ment
one from memory, Estate Planning in a Changing World .
   Mr. WORMSER . That is right .
   Mr . HAYS. I found it a little heavy going but it is perhaps beca
I don't have an estate to worry about .
   The CHAIRMAN. Since I quoted it in one of my speeches I sho
also mention his most recent book the Myth of Good and Bad Natio
   Mr. HAYS . I hope I will have the time to read it before this he
 ing is over .
   I have just one more question which may lead into some s
auestions . I have a letter here from a man-I don't suppose he wo
care if I identified him, but there is no reason to bring him in .
is a rather kind letter with several points of view . He makes
challenging statement here and I would like to hear your comme
   He says, "Man's greatest problem today is man himself ." Wou
you agree with that?
   Dr . HOBBS . Could I answer that a little indirectly?
   Mr . HAYS . In any way you wish.
   Dr . HOBBS . I was going to lunch some time ago with a collea
and he asked me, "What do you think the Negro really wants?"
asked him, "What do you really want for lunch?" He said "I
not sure, I don't know ." I said, "You don't even know what
want for lunch and you ask me to tell you what the Negro rea
wants ."
   I don't know what man's greatest problem is . Also, I don't k
what I want for lunch .
   Mr. HAYS . I will read further and lie says
   Human behavior is the area in which understanding of any general valid
is most difficult to obtain .
   You would agree with that, would you not?
   Dr . HOBBS . I am sorry, sir, would you repeat that?
   Mr. HAYS (reading)
  Human behavior is the area in which understanding of any general valid
is most difficult to obtain .
   Dr . HOBBS . If you leave out the supernatural I would say that
correct.
   Mr. HAYS . Let us leave it out by all means .
   Dr. HOBBS . Frankly, we have been in a couple of areas here t
I have very little knowledge of and if we get into the supernatur
I will be completely without knowledge .
we have been saying all along . You can change the words "human
behavior" to make them read "social science" and we would come up
with about the same general conclusion, would we not?
  Dr . HOBBS . Yes, Sir .
  Mr. HAYS . That any experimentation with human behavior or the
social sciences or anything concerning the behavior of men is an
experiment or a research that you can't put any adequate controls on ?
  Dr. HOBBS . That would be my view.
  Mr. HAYS . So it is more or less an excursion into the dark and any
conclusions that you come up with should be qualified by saying that
there is no way to validly set up a scientific control, so these are
merely conclusions and the best we can come to in the light of what
we have done .
  Dr. HOBBS . Exactly .
  Mr. HAYS . If the foundations adopt that as a principle in their
grants for research into the social sciences, you would be satisfied?
  Dr. HOBBS . I would say that would be a commendable forward step .
  Mr. HAYS . That is all .
  The CHAIRMAN . Are there any other questions?
  If not, we thank you very kindly, Professor Hobbs .
  Dr. HOBBS . Thank you, sir .
  The CHAIRMAN . Whom do you wish to call?
  Mr. WORMSER . I would like to call Mr . McNiece.
  Mr. HAYS . You say you wanted to call Mr. McNiece . It is time
for the morning bell for the House . I wonder if it would not be well
to go over to Monday?
  Mr. KocH . Mr. McNiece's presentation, which is long, we can
put on at any time, so if we don't start Monday, because we have
some other witnesses, we will put it on later .
  The CHAIRMAN . As I understand, Mr . Wormser, the witness who
is to be here Monday is Mr . Sargent, of California . I might say Mr .
Sargent was the man who was first invited to become general counsel
of the Cox committee, the predecessor of this committee, and for rea-
sons at that time was unable to accept the invitation, but he is a student
of questions which we are dealing with here and, based upon my
knowledge of Mr . Sargent in other ways, I think his testimony
will contain a great deal of interest .
  Mr . HAYS . Let me ask this while we are on the matter of whom
we are going to call . You say Mr. Sargent was first approached
about being counsel for the Cox committee?
  The CHAIRMAN . He was invited to be counsel of the committee
by Mr . Cox .
  Mr. HAYS. Would it be possible at some time to bring in the counsel
of the Cox committee? There are a lot of questions I would like to
ask him .
  The CHAIRMAN . I think that is something that might be considered .
  Mr. HAYS . I want to get a request in right now before we run out
of time .
  I would like to have the counsel of the Cox committee brought in
one day . Ask him to come . I think he could give us some very valu-
able statements .
   The committee on Monday will meet in the caucus room in the Ol
House Office Building, which is room 362, at 10 a. m .
   (Whereupon, at 11 : 50 p . m., Thursday, May 20, the hearing w
recessed until 10 a . m ., Monday, May 24,1954 . )
                  TAX-EXEMPT FOUNDATIONS

                      MONDAY, MAY 24, 1954

                          HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
                       SPECIAL COMMITTEE To INVESTIGATE
                                  TAX EXEMPT FOUNDATIONS,
                                                 Wa8hington,, D . C.
  The special subcommittee met at 10 a . m., pursuant to recess, in
room 1334, New House Office Building, Hon . B . Carroll Reece (chair-
man of the special subcommittee) presiding .
  Present : Representatives Reece, Hays, and Pfost .
  Also present : Rene A . Wormser, general counsel ; Arnold T . Koch,
associate counsel ; Norman Dodd, research director ; Kathryn Casey,
legal analyst .
  The CHAIRMAN . The committee will come to order .
  Who is your first witness, Mr . Wormser?
  Mr. WORMSER . Mr. Aaron Sargent, of San Francisco .
  The CHAIRMAN . Will you be sworn? Do you solemnly swear the
testimony you are about to give in this proceeding shall be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
         TESTIMONY OF AARON M. SARGENT, ATTORNEY,
                   SAN FRANCISCO, CALIF.
  Mr. SARGENT. Yes ; I do . I have the original subpena Mr . Reece
served me. May I lodge it with the clerk at this time?
  The CHAIRMAN . Yes .
  Mr. WORMSER . Will you state your name, address, and occupation
for the record, please?
  Mr. SARGENT. Yes . My name is Aaron M . Sargent . My occupa-
tion is attorney at law . I also have had experience in connection with
special investigations and research, particularly in the educational
and aiitisubversive field . My office is in the Hobart Building in San
Francisco, Calif . I maintain a research office at Palo Alto, Calif.,
which is down in the San Francisco Peninsula. My residence is 606
Santa Rita Avenue, Palo Alto, Calif .
  Mr. WORMSER . Mr. Sargent, you are here, I understand, to give
testimony on radicalism in education and the responsibility of the
foundations for it?
  Mr . HAYS . Before we go any further, I have a few questions I would
like to ask.
  Mr. WORMSER . I was just going to ask him to qualify himself .
  Mr . HAYS. I am going to qualify him. Were you ever offered the
counselship of the Cox committee?
  Mr. SARGENT . Yes, sir.
                                                              189
     49720-54-pt. 1	13
ing of the position or discussion of my possible employment
  Mr. HAYS . I asked you a specific question . Were you offered
counselship of the Cox committee?
   Mr. SARGENT . In substance, yes. It was indicated verbally that
appointment would be looked upon favorably . The actual tende
do not think was made . I discussed the matter with Judge Cox
Washington at the time.
   Mr. HAYS . In other words, it was an informal discussion about t
possibility of it, but actually you were -never specifically offered i
   Mr. SARGENT . No . I was never specifically offered it in a form
way . It was under discussion . I found myself unable to do it
a number of reasons .
  The CHAIRMAN . Would you permit an interjection, Mr . Hays?
  Mr. HAYS. Yes .
  The CHAIRMAN . As a member of the Cox committee, I might s
Judge Cox brought up the question of counsel . He brought up t
name of Mr. Sargent and gave his background and his evaluation
him, which was favorable, indicating that he thought favorably
his selection . The committee at this informal session authorized
to get in touch with Mr. Sargent and negotiate with him . I do
remember the exact details but as I recall it, the inference was to co
clude a contract with him if lie desired to do so.
   At a later meeting he advised the committee that he had contact
Mr. Sargent, who at that time was in Texas attending a bar associ
tion meeting of some kind .
  Mr. SARGENT . It was a meeting of the Sons of the American Rev
lution, National Society, at Houston .
   The CHAIRMAN . He advised he would be unable to accept the cou
selship . That is the basis for my reference the other day . In vi
of the fact that I made that reference, I thought I should furth
explain the statement .
   Mr. HAYS . Did you ever offer to work for the Cox committee lat
on, Mr. Sargent, after the counsel was chosen ?
  Mr. SARGENT . No ; I never did . Mr. Harold Keele, the counsel f
the committee, contacted me when I was in Washington-I do n
recall the exact date-September or October of that year . What ye
was that? That committee was acting in 1952 .
  Mr. HAYS . Yes:
   Mr. SARGENT . It would be about October, as I recall, of 1952 . I
staying at the Statler . Mr. Keele's office contacted me and reques
me to confer with him, which I did, and he asked me what I kn
about this thing . We went over it in some detail. He asked in 'w
way I could be of any help . I said if you feel that my services wo
be of any assistance to you, I will see what I can do . But I was ne
requested to act, and I did not solicit the arrangement in any w
The entire request originated from Mr . Keele . He had me meet wi
the staff at lunch and we did various things .
   Mr. HAYS . You are testifying now that Mr . Keele asked you .
   Mr. SARGENT . Correct . He asked me in what way I could he
I indicated I thought that there were only two ways-as a witnes
or possibly under some special employment . It was in response
his question how I could aid him . I did not want the association
  Mr. HAYS . Did you have a conference with Mr . Keele at that time?
  Mr. SARGENT . Yes, I did ; a long conference.
   Mr. HAYS . It lasted until 8 : 30 or so in the evening ?
  Mr. SARGENT . I do not recall the hour. It lasted a long time . He
reviewed a great many things about his policies in the handling of the
investigation and so forth .
   Mr. HAYS . Do you recall saying that you would be available for
special consultation or investigative work to this Cox committee at
a fee of about $100 to $125 a day?       -
  Mr. SARGENT. I may have stated that amount . That is about what
it is worth for an attorney to leave his business and go out of town
and attend things of this kind . It is a very expensive and heavy
responsibility. I may have said that.
  Mr . HAYS . And you recall that was considerably more than the
counsel was getting and that the committee probably would not pay
that, is that correct?
   Mr. SARGENT. I think it was indicated that it was higher than the
scale ; yes . However, that is what the sacrifice was worth .to me.
  Mr. HAYS . Did you tell Mr . Keele the reason that you had declined
the job of counsel of the Cox committee? Did you tell him that?
   Mr. SARGENT . I think he knew it all right. I don't specifically
recall.
   Mr. HAYS . Remember you are under oath . You just testified that
you were not specifically tendered the job . I am asking you, Did you
tell Mr . Keele that you declined the job?
   Mr. SARGENT . I don't know whether I did or not . You are being
technical, Mr. Hays .
   Mr. HAYS . No ; I am not being technical at all . I am just asking
you a question . You either did or didn't .
   Mr. SARGENT. I may have used that expression, but in a technical
and exact sense, I was not tendered the job . I felt here in justice to
this committee I should not make that statement . There was no for-
mal notice or a letter stating that "we offer you the counselship of the
committee."
   Mr. HAYS . We brought that out .
   Mr. SARGENT . I may have used that reference in talking to Mr .
Keele in a loose general sense, in the sense I knew I probably could
be appointed and indicating to them I could not be available . I think
I would have been justified in making that statement . I said generally
something of that nature .
  Mr. HAYS . All right . I am not going to try to pin you down more
than that .
  Mr. SARGENT . In a technical sense, I was not offered the job, no.
  Mr. HAYS . Did you give Mr . Keele any reason why you, would not
have taken the job?
  Mr. SARGENT . I don't remember . I may have indicated something .
I don't recall specifically at this time .
  Mr. HAYS . You don't remember whether you told him that you had
an estate that you were executor for in California and you could not
afford to turn down the fee involved?
  Mr. SARGENT . I could have told him that. That is the fact. It is
an estate pending at the present time, as a matter of fact . I am still
working on it .
   Mr. SARGENT . I don't know whether he did or not . I don't k
whether he did or not . I don't mind telling you it is a quarter-milli
dollar estate in probate . It is important business . The party d
while I was in the East .
   Mr. HAYS. Have you at any time in the past criticized the Cox c
mittee on the ground that the questionnaires were not sworn to?
   Mr. SARGENT. Yes .
   Mr. HAYS . Did you discuss with Mr . Keele at any time during y
conference the problem of having those questionnaires sworn to?
   Mr. SARGENT. Yes ; I asked why there was no oath on that quest
naire form . He said he was going to bring these people in later
cross-examine them and use these statements to get prelimin
information .
   Mr. HAYS . Did you happen to discuss it with him to the extent
agreeing that had they tried in the limited time to get the questi
naires sworn to that they probably would not have gotten any ba
   Mr. SARGENT . I think he said something like that . I don't re
I ever said it.
   Mr. HAYS . You do not know whether you agreed with t
conclusion?
   Mr. SARGENT. I don't think so . I was a little disturbed at the pr
dure. It looked a little irregular to me . That committee had
subpena power, including power to compel answer . I thought
procedure was a little different, to say the least .
   Mr . HAYS . Did you discuss the mechanics of this thing? This c
mittee only had a life of 6 months . Wasn't the question discus
that, if they required sworn questionnaires, that they proba
wouldn't have had time to check every answer of the foundations,
the committee probbbly would not have gotten back anything, so un
the circumstances it was better to go ahead this way than to
getting nothing?
   Mr. SARGENT . You misunderstand the purpose and scope of t
conversation, Mr . Hays . I didn't go there to discuss any of t
things with Mr . Keele . He called me in because he wanted to t
to me and he outlined various things and I commented upon som
them .
   Mr. HAYS . He called you in?
   Mr. SARGENT. I was definitely there at his request, and I remai
 for a very long time, longer than I had any idea of staying. I
there about 4 o'clock in the afternoon and I didn't get out until pr
 ably around 8 o'clock, nearly 3 or 4 hours.
   Mr. HAYS. I do not know who called you .
   Mr. SARGENT . He did . I didn't discuss these things with him at a
 except I might comment on what he said . He was apparently try
 to tell me what he was going to do. I was not guiding him.
   Mr . HAYS . It has been stated here by Mr . Dodd that there are cer
 things missing from the files of the Cox committee . At least one
 of the answers to these questionnaires . Do you happen to have
 set?
    Mr. SARGENT . No, Sir.
   Mr. HAYS . Did you ever have it?
  Mr. HAYS . Do you have any material that came out of the files of
the Cox committee?
  Mr. SARGENT. Not a single piece of paper of any kind . I think the
suggestion is a little bit unfair, Mr . Hays.
  Mr. HAYS . Well, now
  Mr. SARGENT . May I answer further, please?
  Mr. HAYS . Yes ; you may answer, but we are not going to make
speeches . I have been lenient with you on making speeches so far . Do
you know a fellow by the name of "Bugeye" Barker?
  Mr. _ SARGENT . I want to answer the other question first .
  Mr. HAYS, You said you didn't have any papers .
  Mr. SARGENT. Yes ; but I want to explain the circumstances to show
I couldn't have any in the first place . May I answer?
  Mr. HAYS . No ; you cannot make a speech.
   Mr. SARGENT. I am not going to make a speech . May I answer that
question first, please?
   Mr. HAYS . You can answer whether or not you have anything out
of the files of the Cox committee .
   Mr. SARGENT . I want to explain .
   Mr. HAYS . I will give you a chance to explain why you couldn't
have later .
   Mr. SARGENT . I did not at any time have access to those question-
naires or the answers except under the jurisdiction of the Clerk of
the House of Representatives in his office in one of these buildings
under his custody and in his office . The questionnaires had never been
answered when I saw Mr . Keele, which was in October . They had
been sent out . I saw no answers at that time .
   Mr. HAYS . Do you know one George, commonly known around
here as Bugeye Barker?
   Mr. SARGENT . I met him when I was in town .
   Mr. HAYS . Did he ever deliver anything to you from the files of
the Cox committee?
   Mr. SARGENT. Not a single piece of paper of any kind .
   Mr. HAYS . Did you try to get from Mr . Keele any material about
the Cox committee?
  Mr . SARGENT. Not a single thing except a transcript I wanted to
borrow later. He handed me some kind of printed forms of question-
naires he was supposed to use . I think I took a few of those away
with me, just blank forms, nothing aside from that .
   Mr. HAYS . You didn't ask for anything and later complained that
he turned you down?
   Mr. SARGENT. No, of course not . I had no right to ask anything
of him . I never did except with respect to the transcript of the Hiss
case.
   Mr. HAYS . Do you know a George DeHuszar?
   Mr. SARGENT . Yes, he is in Chicago .
  Mr. HAYS . Have you ever worked with him?
   Mr. SARGENT. No, I never worked with him . I discussed problems
with him from time to time . But I never worked with him on any
situation . I have corresponded with him as I do with other people
interested in this kind of work . He did a small job for me years
some matters .
  Mr. HAYS . Did I understand you to just say that you never ask
Mr . Keele for anything?
  Mr. SARGENT. Any documentary material?
  Mr. HAYS . Yes .
   Mr. SARGENT . I am pretty clear I never did.
   Mr. HAYS . Did you ever ask him for any information?
   Mr. SARGENT. I asked him at one time if he could get . me acce
to the printed transcript of the proceedings on the trial of Alger Hi
I asked him if he could give me that . I was doing research and
wanted to go over the transcript . He told me by letter he didn
have it. I later obtained it from another source . I did ask him
that . I never asked him for any committee material. I think th
is the only thing I ever did ask him for .
   Mr. HAYS . Did you write him at least two letters demanding ce
tain information relative to the work of the committee?
  Mr. SARGENT . Not demanding anything, no . I had a few lette
with him, yes . I will be glad to identify any letters of mine if y
have them there, and if I look at my file at home, I will send y
copies of what my correspondence with him was .
  Mr. HAYS. Did you write him any letters wanting to know w
witnesses had not been sworn?
   Mr. SARGENT. After the thing was over, I did . I wanted to p
him down and tried to find why . That was after the committee h
disbanded . Yes, I did ask for his explanation and I got no sati
factory answer.
  Mr. HAYS . You didn't sort of try to run this Cox investigati
from the sidelines by any chance, did you?
  Mr. SARGENT . No, not under any conditions . I had nothing to
with it. I waited until it was all over . I received the report and t
published transactions . I looked them over. I then discovered th
the witnesses had not been sworn . I was amazed about it . Mr. Keel
explanation to me was the fact that some sworn testimony would
taken . I was astounded at what I found . I then opened correspo
ence with Mr . Keele to find out why he had not done so . That is wh
the correspondence originated on the swearing of witnesses.
  Mr. HAYS . Did you at any time want to set up another committee
this session of the Congress?
  Mr. SARGENT . Another committee?
  Mr. HAYS . A similar committee to the Cox committee-this co
mittee?
  Mr. SARGENT . You mean aside from this committee here?
  Mr. HAYS . No . Did you at any time either verbally or in writi
ask anyone to introduce a resolution setting up sgch a committee as
have meeting here today?
   Mr. SARGENT. No. The resolution was introduced . I was back h
after the resolution was introduced, and I was in favor of the resol
tion carrying. I did not suggest a resolution to be offered in t
first place . I had nothing to do with that .
   Mr. HAYS . Did any member of this committee tender you the j
of counsel or approach you?
   Mr. SARGENT. 'No, not under those circumstances, not even by su
gestion or indirection .
   Mr. SARGENT . No.
   Mr. HAYS. How was the contact made that brings you here today,
Mr. Sargent?
   Mr. SARGENT . I received a letter from Mr . Norman Dodd . I don't
have the exact date .
   Mr. HAYS. That is immaterial.
   Mr. SARGENT . I received a letter quite recently inquirin whether I
could be in any way helpful to this committee . I wire Mr. Dodd
back and told him that if they desired to take care of the usual . ex-
  enses that I would be willing to come back and lay the entire matter
b efore you . I received in response to that wire a telegram from Mr .
Dodd stating that my willingness to do that was greatly appreciated ;
that the expenses would be provided, and that I would be notified
shortly . I talked with him on the phone subsequently, and I told him
that I felt that if I carne, I should have the protection of subpena so
as to make it clearly a well-defined legal arrangement . The subpena
was forthcoming, and I came . This originated in the first place at
the instance of your staff, and throughout was at their request, and not
my request . If that had not happened, I would never have been here
at all .
   Mr. HAYS . Understand I am not trying to lead you into anything on
that question . I am merely trying to find out how the contact was
made .
   Mr. SARGENT . The contract was made at the instance of your staff .
I am here at their request .
   Mr. HAYS. As I understand it from this three-page mimeographed
form that you have here, in which you say in the last paragraph that
a considerable amount of time is required for your presentation . I
assume that you have a prepared presentation there, well documented
and so on.
   Mr. SARGENT. I have an outline to enable me to testify . It is not
prepared in the sense that it can be mimeographed and distributed
and have any use . I have an outline and it is organized to minimize
your time and to be orderly in its handling .
   Mr. HAYS . In other words, you are sitting there with a prepared
script that you cannot furnish to the committee, is that it?
   Mr. SARGENT . The question is not being able to furnish the com-
mittee . I understand you want to know what I know about this sub-
ject. I have arranged notes to enable me to do this with a minimum
of time and lost motion . I have such an outline for my guidance,
yes . The first part of my testimony, Mr . Hays, will be devoted to
this first statement here . For your convenience, as I get to other
sections of this, I will try and give you some sort of agenda as best
I can . I have been in town only 5 days and working constantly to put
this material together after I got here .
   (Discussion off the record .)
   Mr. HAYS. I will ask you one more question, Mr . Sargent. In view
of the fact that you do not have a prepared statement, and according
to the short statement you have here, you say that it is going to be
very long, you would not' have any objection if the committee inter-
rupted you at any place to try to ask you a question to clarify some-
thing?
velop that you will ask me some question which cannot be ful
answered without reference to other testimony I propose to giv
In a case of that kind, I would like to indicate to you the nature
the other testimony, and ask leave to respond to it later . Runni
questions as we go, of course, I am happy to answer-
      Mr
  Mr .. HAYS . The committee will not try to put a limitation on you
answer .
   Mr . SARGENT. No ; there are several blocks of testimony and o
of these questions may anticipate something which I am going to cov
very fully.
   The CHAIRMAN. Also, Mr . Sargent, I have indicated to Mr . Ha
and Mrs. Pfost that in addition to the questions they may ask as the
go along, that after reading the full transcript of your testimony,
further questioning is desired, that you will become available
answer .
   Mr . SARGENT. Certainly, except I do hope that it is possible to min
mize my stay in Washington and do it promptly . I have to go
New York from here . If I can get through this continuously to
point where you are approximately through, I will contact the co
mittee staff, and if you want to hold one more hearing to questi
me further on my testimony in coming back from New York I can
that, and perhaps that will accomplish your purpose .
   Mrs. PFOST . Mr . Sargent, you have no carbon copies at all . Yo
have only one original of your lengthy testimony?
   Mr. SARGENT. I have not written out my testimony . I am givi
it as I go . I have notes from which I can testify to these vario
facts . I haven't it written out in full, no . I am testifying and n
just reading a piece of paper here .
   Mr . HAYS . Let me ask you this, and I am trying again to get so
clarification on this . Do you propose being specific? If you ma
any generalizations, are you going to try to document those, a
name names?
   Mr . SARGENT. I propose to be absolutely specific and to make
statements based upon documents which I personally have examin
In some cases I have the document right here and I will read from t
document itself .
   Mr. HAYS . In other words, you will read excerpts?
   Mr. SARGENT. . Yes, and I will cite the original source . I am refe
ring to books. I am refering to manuscript material .
   Mr . HAYS. All right .
   The CHAIRMAN . You may proceed, then, Mr . Sargent.
   Mr. WORMSER . May I first ask, Mr . Sargent, to state what educ
tional and other experience you may have had which might quali
you to give expert testimony in this proceeding?
   Mr. SARGENT . From the standpoint of educational background,
am a graduate of Stanford University, class of 1923, receiving a de
gree of bachelor of science in mechanical engineering, I was grad
ated from Hastings College of Law, which is the University of Cal
fornia, in 1926, being granted the degree, bachelor of laws . I w
 admitted to the bar of the State of California in 1926 . I beca
 a member of the bar of the United States Supreme Court in 193
I am a member of the American Bar Association, the American Jud
cature Society, State Bar of California . Twenty-seven years exper
 American education, and particularly the public school system .
   From the standpoint of specific proceedings, I participated in hear-
ings in 1941-42, before the San Francisco City Board of Education
in regard to Rugg social science textbooks. Between 1942 and 1945,
I studied the progressive system of education . This was done at
the request of the California Society, Sons of the American Revolu-
tion . We inquired into the textbook condition of our State schools
and our State department of education at Sacramento .
   In 1946, I began the inquiry which led up to the proceedings which
were later brought to Congress on the so-called Building America
textbooks.
   I handled proceedings for the SAR before the State Board of
Education of California, and later made a presentation before legis-
lative committees on that . I drafted certain legislative bills on educa-
tion for that session at the request of various parties involved . I
 have since studied the national aspects of this subversive teaching
problem .
   I am the author of the Bill of Grievances which was filed with the
Judiciary Committee of the United States Senate, and the Un-Amer-
ican Activities Committee of the House of Representatives by the
National Society, Sons of the American Revolution . I conducted the
research on which that document was based .
   In 1952 for a brief period in May I was employed as a consultant
for staff work in research by the Senate Internal Security Commit-
tee. In 1952-53 I directed some research work conducted at the Hoover
Institute Library at Stanford University on war, peace, and revolution.
That is the collection of material assembled by Mr . Herbert Hoover
and his associates .
   I have studied curriculum and teaching methods in social studies,
the philosophy and practice involved in the progressive system of
education, communism in education, also propaganda, tactics and ac-
tivities of revolutionary organizations, and the history of subversive
movement. Likewise the legal and constitutional questions involved .
   On the question here by Mr . Hays it was brought out the cir-
cumstances under which I came . I served for a number of years as
chairman of the Americanization committee of the National Society,
Sons of the American Revolution . I do not occupy that office at the
present time . I am merely a member in good standing of the Society .
I am here not as the representative of any group, but an individual
citizen under subpena by you .
   In the interest of full disclosure, I wish to acquaint you with this
fact at the present time . I am the president and research director of
a tax-exempt foundation for educational work that was recently
organized but which has no funds at its disposal at the present time,
and which has had no business relationships of any kind with any
foundation to which I will refer in my testimony . The corporation
is entitled, "Fund for American Leadership, Inc ." It was organized
under California law on August 17, 1953, for the purpose of train-
ing leaders in antisubversive work and studying revolutionary meth-
ods, their history, development and activities, which threaten the
national security, their propaganda, impact on American institutions,
  I have here a certified copy of those articles which I would li
to have made a part of the committee files .
  Mr. HAYS . Just a minute . Let me ask you about that . Has th
foundation ever had any money?
   Mr. SARGENT. No. It still has no money . We are in the proce
of determining what contact can be made to get funds.
  Mr. HAYS . I just suggest in view of some of the statements th
have been made about the gullibility of some of these people y
ought not to have much trouble in getting money .
  Mr. SARGENT. The difficulty is that our side can't get the mone
but the other side can always get it . This corporation was creat
to find American money to study the antisubversive-
  Mr. HAYS. All you ought to do is say that in Texas and if y
are any kind of salesman at all, you ought to get the money .
  Mr. SARGENT . So I appear strictly in an individual capacity . Th
corporation is not affected in this matter . I am speaking entirely
that basis .
  Now, I have a prepared statement for the committee which at th
time I would like to read.
  The investigation required of this committee is one of the mos
important matters which has ever come before the Congress of t
United States . It concerns the national security, the defense of t
principles set forth in the Constitution of the United States . Y
will find that the situation confronting you is the result of a disr
gard of trust responsibility-a condition amounting to abdication
duty by the trustees of the tax-exmpt foundations which have exert
such a great influence in the history of our country since the turn
the century .
  In discharging its responsibility and weighing the evidence, th
committee must have some standard or yardstick to apply. I belie
the following r re the legal and moral standards which apply to th
trust relationship .
  This is an elaboration of the poster we have on the board here .
   Standards of foundation conduct : It is the duty of tax-exem
foundations and their trustees to observe and be . guided by the follo
ing standards of conduct
  First : Patriotism . To bear true faith and allegiance to the philo
ophy and principles of government set forth in the Declaration o
Independence and the Constitution of the United States .
   Second : Loyalty . To be active and positive in supporting t
United States Government against revolutionary and other subversiv
attacks ;
  To put patriotic money at the disposal of patriotic men in this fie
of education to enable them to support and defend our Constituti
and form of government.
  Third : Obedience to law. To faithfully obey the laws of the Unit
States and the provisions of State law under which foundatio
charters are granted ;
  Fourth : Respect for exemption . To use the tax-exemption priv
lege in good faith, recognizing the purpose for which that privile
is granted ;
national security, or (3) threaten the integrity of the Federal Govern-
ment.
   Mr. HAYS . Right there, I am going to stop you and ask you a ques-
tion . That is a very fine statement, but if you refrain from supporting
everything that the Republican campaign orators called socialism,
then you would be against everything that has been passed by the
Congress in the past 20 years . Is that your definition?
   Mr. SARGENT . No, Sir. When I talk about socialism in my testi-
mony, Mr. Hays, I mean socialism of the kind advocated by the Fa-
bians of Great Britain, which has ruined the economic system of that
country, not individual projects which may seem wise for some
purpose or other on their own merits .
   Mr. HAYS . -I won't debate with you what has ruined the economic
system of Great Britain or even say that Time magazine, a week or
two ago, talked about the remarkable recovery and the great dollar
balance . We will leave that out. Would you consider bank-deposit
insurance to be socialism?
   Mr. SARGENT. No; not within the scope of what I mean here .
   Mr. HAYS . We want to get this term straightened out, because it has
been too widely applied .
   Mr . SARGENT. I am very happy to do that .
   Mr. HAYS . How about old-age insurance?
   Mr. SARGENT . No .
   Mr. HAYS . Social security and unemployment insurance?
   Mr. SARGENT. No.
   Mr. HAYS. You would not consider any of those to be socialism?
   Mr. SARGENT . I am talking about nationalization of business and
industry, a government-operated system which is national socialism
or Fabian socialism .
  Mr. HAYS . We will try to get one maybe you can get in on . How
about TVA?
  Mr. SARGENT. I think that is doubtful.
  Mr. HAYS. That is in the sort of gray area?
  Mr . SARGENT . You are not asking my policy on legislative matters
now?
  Mr. HAYS . No ; but you are throwing these terms around, and you
are going to continue, I am pretty sure, and I want to get a delineation
of what is and what is not socialism when you use the word . You say
it is Fabian socialism . You may understand that and I may have
some smattering of what it means, but, if they put that in the news-
papers, to 99 percent of the people it is going to mean nothing . So
I am trying to get this down
  The CHAIRMAN . Since TVA has been interjected, many I also make a
comment on that. I think I can do so objectively . The TVA was
started initially purely as a defense project for the purpose of manu-
facturing nitrogen which was then not available in adequate and in-
sured quantities. That is back in World War I . Then in connection
with the expansion of the development it was based upon flood con-
trol, which is a very important phase of the TVA development . Then
since the expenditures were being made for flood control and defense,
there was an incidental development, which was power . I think all
 then adequate provision must be made for the development of the riv
 for power purposes .
   The only question remaining to be decided was the manner in whi
 the power development should be carried out . I think there was nev
 any question after the Government moved in but that the Governmen
 should construct the dams . The question arose as to the manner
which the power should be distributed . That is the key question .
   If you will pardon me, since the question has come up and it come
up frequently, a sharp difference of opinion existed-I was chairma
of the subcommittee that drafted the original Tennessee Valley devel
opment and was chairman of the House conference committee .
   One of the very sharp differences between the Senate committee an
the House committee was with reference to the distributing of th
power . As an individual, and I was supported by the majority o
the House conferees, I opposed the Federal Government establishin
sprawling power-distributing system, and advocated instead that t
local authorities be permitted to organize companies for the distribu
tion of the power. When the TVA Act in its final form was adopted
that policy was embodied in the act . So that the Federal Govern
ment does not distribute the power . I think this is an importan
thing to keep in mind. The government outside of its defense a
flood-control aspects generates the power and sells it wholesale to th
various distributing agencies, which in the main are owned by munici
palities . If desired, those distributing facilities could be owne
privately, as I recall, but it happens that none of them is .
   I think when we get to questioning the socialism aspect of TVA, i
is well to keep in mind just what the TVA is ; and that is the reason
am taking a little while here to make this explanation with referenc
to the Tennessee Valley Authority in view of my intimate relation
with it from its very inception .
   Mr. HAYS . Just let me say a word or two to clarify a couple o
things . In the first place, the incidental bydevelopment, which i
power, is the thing that put refrigerators in the kitchens and bette
food on the table, and, in many cases, shoes on the feet of a lot of peop
down in east Tennessee and other areas around there . I am usin
that in a rather facetious way, but I am saying that it has created job
where there were no jobs, and it has been good for the whole economy
The only way we did it differently in my district-we had the pow
there, but we had no way to distribute it .
   The record will show that I have been objecting strenuously as
member of an REA co-op to building our own power facilities whe
there was plenty of power to buy . So we built the distribution pla
and we did it in reverse . I am aware of the sharp differences o
opinion . I was interested in getting power to the farmers . We d
have it . The power companies generate it and sell it to the co-ops wh
sell it to their members . It is an interesting example of private busi
ness and cooperatives working hand in hand to the mutual profit
both .
   The only reason I have brought up TVA is because it has bee
called and has become associated in the minds of a great many peopl
with the term "socialism." I wanted to know when we are using th
term here what it does and does not cover .
ment which is working for a general program of planned economy
based on nationalization of industry, business, national resources, and
credit. The political operation of a nation's economy, not fragmen-
tary things . Politics is something which these foundations are not
supposed to go into, and I think they have no right to undermine the
basis of their exemption by doing things of that type.
   Mr . HAYS . We will get to that in your specific accusations.
   Mr. SARGENT . The fifth standard here is academic responsibility .
This is a part of my concept of standards of foundation conduct .
   Academic responsibility requires these foundations to limit their
activities to projects which are, in fact, educational, and are con-
ducted in an academically responsible manner in accordance with
proper academic standards ;
   To refrain from using education as a device for lobbying or a means
to disseminate propaganda .
   That is the end of the statement of standards .
   The money administered by these foundation trustees is public
money . The beneficiaries of these trusts are the American people ;
the parents of children in our public schools . Education is a sacred
trust .' A high degree of integrity is expected of those connected with
it. We must consider the ethical duty of foundation trustees from
that standpoint.
   Serious charges have been made against the foundations : It is your
duty to answer these questions ; to find solutions and perhaps recom-
mend legislative action . I intend to be objective and give you the
facts ; to present the truth without fear or favor . This presentation
will cover the history of the subversive movement ; it will outline the
boundaries of the problem ; discuss the most important ramifications,
and endeavor to give the data required for your consideration .
   The subject is important, and also complex . Under the most favor-
able conditions, a considerable amount of time is required for my
presentation .
  The CHAIRMAN . Now, reverting back to the TVA, because refer-
ence was made to wearing shoes .
  Mr. HAYS . I am glad to discuss that with you all afternoon .
   The CHAIRMAN . I might say that some of them wore shoes down
there before TVA .
  Mr. SARGENT. Inasmuch as this matter touches directly on educa-
tion and involves a degree of criticism, I think it fair and proper for
me to state very briefly my position on the question of public education
and the public schools . It is as follows
  I support the public-school system and recognize its necessity to
make our system of government workable in practice . I believe it is
necessary and essential to maintain the integrity of that system and
protect it from subversives, political action and other pressure groups-
I believe in the fundamental integrity of the average teacher . I am
convinced that the best interests of the teaching profession will be
served by the investigation to be made by this committee, and that such
an inquiry will restore integrity in the educational profession and
enable the schools to regain the position of confidence and esteem then
should have in the hearts of the American people .
    Mr. SARGENT. I think they have lost it to a degree, Mr . Hays, beca
 of the tactics to which I refer.
   Mr. HAYS . You talk about California. But I want to put in t
record right here that the schools in Ohio have not lost the confiden
 of the people, and they have not lost any integrity, and they are ju
as good as they ever were ; in fact, they are a little better .
   Mr. SARGENT. Have you seen the magazine articles about the peo
being concerned about the conditions of their schools nationally?
   Mr. HAYS. Do you believe in astrology?
   Mr. SARGENT. No, Sir ; not I .
   Mr. HAYS . Could you give me any reason why there are so ma
peculiar people drawn to southern California?
   Mr. SARGENT. I don't live in southern California, and I would
know.
   Mr. HAYS. You know, it is a funny thing, but every time we
an extremist letter in my office-and it is either on the left or t
right-you don't have to look at the postmark . It either comes fr
southern California or Houston, Tex . I just wonder if there is so
reason for it.
   Mr. SARGENT . I think, Mr . Hays, you will certainly want to reser
your judgment about this question of the schools' integrity bei
involved until you have heard the evidence in this case, and I wou
like to present it from that point of view .
   Mr. HAYS. I just want to put in about the schools in Ohio. If y
have any evidence to the contrary, we will get down to specific case
   Mr. SARGENT. I know nothing about the Ohio situation specificall
either pro or con .
   Mr. HAYS . I thought not. 1 know a good deal about it . I happen
to be 'a teacher there . I have a lot of friends who have positions
superintendents and executives in the school system from the lar
to the small cities . There is no question about it . Not even so
crackpots in our legislature who have wanted to investigate ever
thing else have investigated the schools, because there is no dema
or reason.
   Mr . SARGENT . I am giving you facts and not opinion . First of a
in approaching this problem of the foundation influence, the su
versive-teaching problem is a foundation problem, and the found
tion problem in turn is a political problem with many ramificatio
From the American standpoint it had its beginning shortly before t
turn of the century in the 1890's . This movement is closely relat
to Fabian socialism, which became established in Great Britain abo
1885, and developed into the movement which has undermined a
almost destroyed the economic system of Great Britain .
   When the beachhead was established in our country, we had thre
bulwarks of defense : First, there was a sound tradition founded
Americanism ; secondly, a written Constitution, and finally, Feder
judicial power in the courts capable of enforcing constitutional righ
   The radical intellectuals attacking that system relied upon prop
ganda and brainwashing . They organized an attack upon patriotis
challenging basic American philosophy founded on the doctrine
natural. law. They sought to create a blackout of history by slanti
   As early as 1892 they sought to establish the Federal income tax to
pave the way for national Federal socialism . This had the effect of
putting the people on an allowance, giving the National Government
unlimited power to spend for socialistic purposes, and reducing the
people to its will . It was proposed to carry out other parts of the so-
cialistic program by false and slanted propaganda .
  Eventual& the judicial power itself was to be undermined by court
packing and by attacks calculated to make the courts subject to the
Executive.
   Education is one of the vital areas involved in this attack on the
American system. The field includes not only elementary and sec-
ondary schools, but also our colleges and universities . The tax-exempt
foundations are directly involved, because they have supported this
movement in the past, and are still promoting it in ways which restrict
educational activities and control public opinion .
   The history of this movement is a record of the greatest betrayal
which has ever occurred in American history . Those are conclusions
based on the evidence I will present to you, and I am here for the
purpose of proving them .
   To understand these condition, it is necessary to trace briefly the
history and development of the American subversive movement .
   Mr. HAYS . Mr. Chairman, I want to object to going further, and I
want to make a motion that the committee adjourn until we settle this
matter . This fellow can come in and read a political speech which he
has had plenty of time to prepare . He has a mimeographed news re-
lease to the newspapers to get his views across, but he can't do it for
the committee . I don't know who mimeographed this for him, but it
looks like it came from the staff . Until we get a vote of the committee
in executive session, I move right now that the committee adjourn .
   The CHAIRMAN . With reference to the mimeographing, the chair-
man suggested to the staff that he thought it would be a convenience to
the press to have a release for the press in advance .
   Mr . HAYS . The press is here, and they can decide for themselves
about these kinds of people . They do not have to have any spoon-fed
stuff . I don't give them any of mine.
   The CHAIRMAN . The extent of the mimeograph of the release I
had no responsibility for.
   Mr. HAYS . This kind of stuff goes in the paper. Suppose it is true?
I do not know whether it is or not . But we will give it the benefit of
the doubt. It is in there. If it is not true, it is still in there, if the
press uses it, which I doubt .
   The CHAIRMAN . But it is convenient to the press to have a release in
advance with the dateline on it .
   Mr . HAYS . Yes, sir, it is a convenience for them to have a dateline
at the same time the committee meets so the press has it, and the public
has it before the committee hearing .
   Mr. SARGENT . This statement was prepared because it was my under-
standing that it was your desire to have some statement . That state-
ment is a summary of the historical material .
   Mr. HAYS . I am not finding too much fault with you . I would like
to have the record show that the committee was not notified you were
adjourn and let the majority decide . If they are going to run it, th
let them get on the record .
   The CHAIRMAN . It is the chairman's thought that all of the wit
nesses should be subpenaed and should be put under oath. That is t
procedure which we are following. I think in fairness to the witness
they should be subpenaed and they are all put under oath, and every
body is on the same basis, and in the same category . That is the o
derly procedure . We adopted that procedure at the suggestion of M
Cox, which I think would serve for that matter as a standard . Every
body that has a story is going to have an opportunity to tell his stor
None of us has any spare time that we want consumed, unless we a
accomplishing something by it .
   You, as I have, sat on many committees . The witnesses do n
always have prepared, complete statements in advance. Frequentl
they do have comprehensive notes prepared, which serve as a basis
  Mr. HAYS . Mr . Chairman, if I may interrupt you, there is a princi
ple involved here, and that is that everything that Mr . Sargent h
read up to now since he started reading was furnished to the pres
with a 10 a. m . deadline in a mimeographed form, and it was not fur
nished to this committee . If we are going to do this business by indi
rection by the back door, and by getting the drop on certain member
of the committee, I want to know it right now .
  Mr. WORMSER . Don't you have a copy of the release?
  Mr. HAYS . Yes, I got one from the press just now .
  Mr. WORMSER . It was not on your desk?
  Mr . HAYS . No, it was not . If you want to debate this now, I mak
a motion now that we adjourn and go into executive session .
  Mr. WORMSER . Mr. Hays, Miss Casey told me she herself put a cop
on your desk .
  Miss CASEY. I put all three things on each member's desk .
  Mr. HAYS . All right . There are three things ; one, a cover sheet ; tw
a special release, and this ; I do not have it. That is what Mrs. Pfo
has. I am not saying that it was intentional, but I am saying that i
happened that way . There is a principle involved here . There is
indictment of the whole American educational system here, which wa
fed out to the press in a mimeographed copy and read to the committe
at 11 o'clock. The press has had it God knows how long : "Hold fo
release 10 a . m . Monday morning."
  Mr. SARGENT . May I proceed with my evidence?
  Mr. HAYS . No, you may not proceed until we either adjourn or I a
voted down, one of the two.
  Mr. WORMSER . Mr. Chairman, may I state that the press has ask
us specifically whenever we can to give them some sort of digest o
what the witness is going to testify .
  Mr. HAYS . The press has not been alone about that . I have bee
pleading with you for the same thing for the members of the com
mittee .
  Mr. WORMSER . May I go on . I understood it was proper procedu
for us to do that. We have done it with considerable effort . It
not easy to get these things out . We are trying to suit the convenien
of the committee, and to the extent that the press is involved, thei
convenience also.
because of the great inconvenience that it occasioned them, and the
facilities of the staff . I insisted that it should be done . I am sure
that they worked overtime . It was not for the purpose of advancing
any view or the interests of any phase of this subject under investi-
gation, but purely based upon my long years of experience here in
Washington, the convenience of the press having something in ad-
vance . That is all there was to it. I am at a loss to understand
   Mr. WORMSER . Mr. Chairman, may I interrupt to suggest that the
gentlemen of the press here would certainly be willing to state, I am
sure, that they pleaded with us to give them this digest.
   Mr. HAYS. We can put them on the stand and let them state that .
That doesn't change my mind a bit . If they are entitled to have it,
the committee is entitled to have it.
   Mr. WORMSER . The committee has had it.
   Mr. HAYS . Yes, just now, because I raised a rumpus about it .
We got it only by accident because one of the boys from the press
table brought it over .
   Mr. WORMSER. I beg your pardon . Miss Casey distributed them .
   Mr . HAYS . Miss Casey admits through some oversight we did not
get it. I don't want you to blame Miss Casey.
   The CHAIRMAN . Mrs . Pfost, you had one?
   Mrs. PFOST. No, this gentleman of the press handed it over to me,
and then gave me a second one .
   Mr. WOEMSER. Miss Casey has made the definite and flat statement
that she put a full set in front of all five committee members .
   Miss CASEY . I put a full set before each member .
   Mrs. PFOST . Here are the three articles, but not the press release .
   Mr. HAYS . I didn't eat it, and it is not here . I have not moved out
of this chair since I have been here .
   The CHAIRMAN . Why don't we proceed? I will call a meeting of
the committee during the afternoon to discuss any questions of pro-
cedure.
   Mr. SARGENT. May I continue, then, Mr . Reece?
   Mr. HAYS . You can continue and I will withdraw my objection,
but now I will start asking a few questions about this press release
I just got.
   You say "when the beachhead was established in our country ."
You are talking about what beachhead?
  Mr. SARGENT . The beachhead of the organized Socialist movement
which had its inception in Great Britain under the Fabian tactic, and
which came in here to infiltrate our educational system .
   Mr. HAYS . You apparently know there was a beachhead . When
and where was it established? When was the first landing made?
   Mr. SARGENT. A definite landing was made as far as becoming an
effective agency in about 1905 with the organization of the Inter-
collegiate Socialist Society . That is one of the points I am going to
cover in my testimony when I get to it .
   Mr. HAYS . We will get to it a little in advance . What was the name
of the organization?
  Mr . SARGENT. Intercollegiate Socialist Society, organized by Jack
London and a number of others, in Peck's Restaurant in New York
City .
     49720-54-pt . 1,	14
  Mr. HAYS. By Jack London?
  Mr. SARGENT. Yes.
  Mr. HAYS . Is that the Jack London that used to write some book
  Mr. SARGENT . That is right, that is the man . I have a pamphl
explaining that which I will read to the committee when I get to th
point .
  Mr . HAYS . Did he import this thing from some other place?
  Mr. SARGENT . He was a member of a radical intellectual elite th
came in here definitely to try to twist our institutions around in fav
of the organized socialist movement .
  Mr: HAYS . Back in 1905 .
  Mr. SARGENT . Yes. Some of the background extends further ba
than that, but that is a definite identifiable date .
  Mr. HAYS . They did a lot of twisting, I assume?
  Mr. SARGENT . They sure did.
  Mr. HAYS. We have resisted pretty well for 50 years, haven't w
  Mr. SARGENT . Have we?
   Mr. HAYS . I am asking you. What do you think?
  Mr. SARGENT. I think we departed very materially . Among oth
things, it is plainly asserted and charged today that the doctrine
inalienable rights and natural laws as set forth in the Declaration
Independence is obsolete . They have accomplished that false beli
in the American mind .
  Mr. HAYS . Now, Mr. Sargent, you would not want to take a po
down on the street and ask the first 100 people you meet if they belie
that?
  Mr. SARGENT . No. I am talking about the slanting of the cour
and the governmental procedure .
   Mr. HAYS . All the courts have been undermined, too?
  Mr. SARGENT. Somewhat, yes .
   Mr. HAYS . Congress, too, I suppose?
  Mr. SARGENT . I am not going into all that . I am here to give y
the chronology and facts, Mr . Hays, by documents, and not my pe
sonal opinions .
   Mr. HAYS . Let me tell you just because you say it is so doesn't ma
it a chronology or a fact .
   Mr. SARGENT. I am giving the evidence . I state my conclusions
set forth here . I am going to cite the books and materials whi
make that position maintainable .
   Mr. HAYS . There may have been a fellow by the name of Lond
and some others who believed in socialism, but what are you going
do about it? Did they have a right in 1905-I am not asking as
today-to believe in whatever they wanted to believe?
   Mr. SARGENT . I am not questioning the right . I am telling wh
they did. I am here to prove the allegation by means of the eviden
and I would like to go on with it.
   Mr. HAYS . You were satisfied to distribute that statement of you
to the press, and I am not going to be satisfied until I find out a b
more about it until I find out how you picked these sentences
   Mr. SARGENT . I am here for the purpose of proving it .
   The CHAIRMAN . Most of the sentence to which you refer was r
peated in the statement which lie has made . Mr. Sargent has
orderly procedure, I do not mean without interruption, if he would
be permitted to proceed in a reasonably orderly manner to complete
his testimony. There are numerous questions which I am sure that
I for one will want to ask him as we go along or later . But if we
move along, I think it would be in the interest of good procedure.
  Mr. HAYS . Mr. Chairman, I want to say this, that the thing that
concerns me is : If such a thing has happened, that is one thing . I
would like to be specific about it, and I am going to continue object-
ing to this kind of presentation . Let me read why : "They organized
an attack, on patriotism . They sought to create a blackout in history.
They introduced a new and revolutionary philosophy . As early. as
1892 they sought to establish"-this has all been handed out to the
press with an awful lot of pronouns in there . What I want to know
is who are these people. Let us start from the beginning and name
names and do it right .
  The CHAIRMAN . That is what I would like to know . I would like
for him to proceed with his statement and see if we can find out .
  Mr. SARGENT . I will give you exactly that information chronologi-
cally on the basis of books by going through this thing . I can't answer
your questions in one sentence .
  Mr. HAYS . No, but your statement to the press, Mr . Sargent-and
you won't sit there and deny it-was deliberately designed to create
an impression that education all has got an odor about it .
  The CHAIRMAN . Mr. Hays-
  Mr. HAYS. You can hammer all you please, but you are not going
to shut the minority up . You have mimeographed statements but
you are not going to silence me .
  The CHAIRMAN . I am not trying to silence anyone .
  Mr. HAYS . You are not going to, either .
  The CHAIRMAN . I want to take the responsibility myself for a state-
ment being prepared for the press. I am the one who insisted on it .
Mr. Sargent knew nothing about it . The members of the staff did
not prefer to do it, and I suggested that I thought it ought to be done
even at great inconvenience to the staff .
  Mr. HAYS . Who wrote it?
  The CHAIRMAN . As to that, I do not know . It was mimeographed,
I am sure, at the instance of the staff .
  Mr. SARGENT . The statement was prepared by me by request . I did
not originate the idea of having one . I did it because I was present
at your hearing the other day
  The CHAIRMAN . The responsibility for the statement being given
out to the press is the chairman's .
  Mr. HAYS . All right. It is the chairman's.
  The CHAIRMAN . He did not know there was any or could be any
controversy on that phase of it, I might add .
  Mr. HAYS. You do not realize how easily you can get into a
controversy with me .
  Mr. SARGENT. I was here the other day, Mr . Hays, and I heard your
request that statements be furnished, and I assumed I was furthering
your wishes in the matter .
  Mr. HAYS . You, sure would, if I had the statement at 10 o'clock or 5
minutes until 10 .
    Mr. HAYS . I have said repeatedly that I am not blaming you . T
 point I am making, and I want to make it perfectly clear, is this
 have tried to insist from the very first meeting we had that this thi
 be conducted objectively and in the interest, to use your own term
 Mr. Chairman, of orderly procedure. There have been a lot of peop
 and a lot of organizations and a lot of institutions that have had a l
 of things said about them, both by written statements and in the hea
 ings . I haven't heard any of them . I have not been able to get a c
 mitment that any specific one of these people is going to be allow
 to come in and tell his story . You know what happened in t
 McCarthy hearings. They kept Stevens on the stand for 14 days unt
 they wore him out and wore the public out, and they got one impre
 sion across to the people's minds, and the other side is not going
 get into the papers unless it is a lot more sensational than I think it
going to be . This is the same technique . We will put out the sens
tional accusations and get it in the paper on page 1, and if they are
true, if these people come in, that will get on page 16, and who is go
to read it anyway .
   The CHAIRMAN. The chairman has stated that he has not made a
plans about publicity . He has not been interested in that phase of i
What he is interested in is developing the facts with the view of t
facts ultimately forming the basis of a report . It is the long-ran
results that the chairman is interested in and he has made no efforts-
and I am sure the members of the press will bear me out in this-
try to get over to the press any idea, preconceived or otherwise .
am sure that some of the press have looked at the chairman somewh
critically because of his failure to give information about the commi
tee . I wanted to wait until the facts were developed and let the pre
develop its own view . The chairman has certainly not tried to pu
licize himself . He does not care whether his name is ever in the pape
As far as publicity is concerned, I have reached the period in my li
where I am not looking for publicity, I am not looking for any client
and not looking for anything further in the way of personal advance
ment. The chairman is interested in only one thing, and that is hel
ing this committee do a good job, which I think the country is inte
ested in . I am not going to lose my patience . I do not have any ti
to spare, but I am going to take whatever time is necessary in orde
to do what I can toward helping accomplish the job .
   I want to provide every opportunity for the views which occur t
you as we go along to be advanced, Mr . Hays .
   Myself, I am very much interested in getting the story which M
Sargent, who has now for some 15 years been intimately associate
with on this whole subject, and the proof which he might or migh
not have to support what he has to say . I am not accepting what h
has to say as being factual until he has completed his statement, an
I see what he has to support it .
   Mrs . PFOST . Mr. Chairman, since we have this report here before u
this release, I wonder if I might ask Mr . Sargent a couple of questio
that are embodied in the release?
   The CHAIRMAN . Yes .
page 2 :
   As early as 1892 they sought to establish the Federal Income tax in order to
pave the way for national Federal socialism .
  This statement would indicate that you feel that the Federal income
tax has brought about socialism, and that it is a socialistic procedure .
  Mr. SARGENT . I think it has had a tremendously powerful effect in
doing exactly that in two ways . One way is placing very, very large
amounts of money at the disposal of the Federal Government to spend,
and the other way is the resultant control which it has had upon the
people . At the national level, a general socialistic program would be
impossible without that tax .
  Mrs . PFOST. Do you think we should not have a Federal income tax?
  Mr. SARGENT. I think the power of the Federal Government to tax
income should be very strictly reduced in order to prevent the invasion
of the sovereignty of the States, and let the States do it . I think it is .
The average workingman works 1 day a week to pay this tax . It is
a soak-the-people tax as it is operating now .
  Mrs. PFOST . It is what?
  Mr. SARGENT . Soak, soaking the people and subjecting them to the
power of the Federal Government .
   Mrs. PFOST . Then you would eliminate completely the Federal
income tax and allow the States to take care of their taxes?
  Mr. SARGENT . I would not eliminate it completely . I would put
a ceiling on it, and not have the Federal Government absorb most of
the available revenues . Let the States spend their own money where
the people can control the projects at a local level and not be subjected
to Washington.
  Mrs . PFOST . What would you do when these emergencies arise, such
as we have had-war emergencies?
   Mr. SARGENT . I am thinking of the tax-limitation proposal ad-
vanced by others, which includes an emergency clause allowing higher
taxes to cover defense or other emergency .
   Mrs . PFOST . Then you would still have to revert back to a Federal
income tax to take care of national emergencies.
  Mr. SARGENT . When the emergency was over, the tax would go
back to the limited rate . However, that is not germane to what I am
presenting here .
  Mrs . PFOST . It will be one of those things which is going out to
the press today . To me it is an insinuation that the Federal income tax
paves the way for national Federal socialism, and certainly we have
Federal income tax today, and I wanted to clarify whether or not
you believe the Federal income tax is a socialistic measure .
  Mr. SARGENT. I can add another point . If you will look at the
Federal budget in 1892, when this tax was first proposed, you will
find the Federal Government did not need any such revenue at all . It
did not need a tax of this kind for its fiscal purposes at all . The Fed-
eral budget was very low . The Federal Government always had the
power to tax inheritances . The courts sustained that . Here we have
a case where a tax capable of this great abuse was actively proposed
and put over when there was no money need for the tax .
   There was some other reason . In the light of developments, there
are many, including myself, that ascribe an entirely different purpose
movement was moving in . My conclusion is that it was done fo
that purpose, and I think that is a correct assumption .
  Mrs . PFOST. In other words, you are practically saying that y
feel that the Federal income tax is used for furthering socialist
measures .
  Mr. SARGENT . It is establishing that ; yes . Without the Feder
income tax, national socialism in the United States would be pra
tically impossible to accomplish . The Government could not do i
The abuse of the tax power is one of the most serious things w
have had here in altering our entire balance in government . It h
made the States paupers and compelled them to come to Washingt
to get their money and submit to the conditions imposed on them
get their own money back .
  Mr . HAYS. That is a pretty broad statement without much found
tion .
  Mr. SARGENT . You ask
  Mr. HAYS . I am not going to ask anybody . My State didn't ha
a nickel of bonded debt until last year . It is against the State co
stitution, so it was not a pauper . But there is a way they can
into debt if they want to, and that is by vote of the people . So a
through the years instead of building roads by selling bonds,
North Carolina did, the people of Ohio have chosen not to do tha
but come down to get the money from the Federal Government wh
they could. They didn't come as paupers . So last year they decid
in their wisdom by an overwhelming vote-and I didn't think it wa
such a good idea then and it may turn out it is not yet-but the peop
voted, they bonded the State for half a billion dollars to build t
roads, but they did it by vote of the people .
  Mr. SARGENT . You had in Taft a great American who has repre
sented some of the philosophy I speak of .
  Mr. HAYS . Taft was a great American, and you and I can agree
that . He was one of the great Americans of all time and knowing h
as I did, if he were sitting here today, he would be just as bored wi
this procedure as I am .
  To get back to your statement, you are making the flat asserti
here that the income tax started out as a Socialist plot to destr
the Government. That is what your statement says .
  Mr. SARGENT. It had that purpose on the part of the Socialists w
advocated it, yes ; that is my opinion .
  Mr. HAYS . But your statement implies, if it does not flatly sa
that the people who passed the income tax were involved in this.
  Mr. SARGENT . The people did not think that. They thought th
were buying something else . They found out later they were buyi
a larger package than they had any idea .
  Mr. HAYS . The people can stop the tax and repeal it .
  Mr. SARGENT . They can do it by constitutional amendment .
  Mr. HAYS . They can do it by changing the Members of Congres
in a democracy.
  Mr. SARGENT . That is right.
  Mr. HAYS. If this were a great Socialist lot and they thought th
were being robbed, they could change the Congress .
  Mr. HAYS . You are here saying this .
  Mr . SARGENT. I am pointing out that the circumstance can be
weighed properly in the light of the history of the time which I am
proposing to give you, dates and circumstances, so you can integrate
the relationship of this pattern .
  Mr. HAYS . But it is your opinion that the income tax was first
introduced as a result of a socialist plot .
  Mr. SARGENT. I think the radicals of that period had precisely that
in mind, yes .
  Mr. HAYS . Do you have any other legislation that you think came
about as a result of a socialist plot?
   Mr. SARGENT . I don't know of anything in particular at this time
that occurs to me . I am talking about the broad pattern and not the
whole series of legislative enactments. I don't think that is pertinent
to your inquiry here.
  Mr. HAYS . It is pertinent in view of this statement to ask you if
you think that people should be taxed according to their ability
to pay .
   M SARGENT . I said the Federal Government's power to do it .
The States have that power . I am talking about the Federal Govern-
ment's power to do the taxing and to control the States through this
type of thing.
   Mr. HAYS . You have implied here that you have a great deal of
reverence for the Constitution . The Constitution gave the Federal
Government certain powers to tax .
  Mr. SARGENT . I am talking about the 16th amendment power to
tax the people without limit .
   Mr. HAYS. But that is part of the Constitution, is it not?
   Mr. SARGENT. Yes .
   Mr. HAYS . Put in there in a constitutional manner.
   Mr. SARGENT . Yes, and I am saying that constitutional proposal
as far as the radicals were concerned was deliberate to make Federal
national taxation a possibility .
   Mr. HAYS . They started out on the 16th amendment to make Federal
national socialism .
   Mr. SARGENT . I think that was part of the scheme . I am talking
about the Federal tax .
   Mrs . PFOST. The reason I am asking you this, Mr . Sargent, is
because the news release has been given, and I thought it should be
explored and clarified before we adjourn today . The last para-
graph
   Mr. SARGENT. On page 2 or page 1 ?
   Mrs. PFOST . On page 2 . I might go back to "Eventually," the last
sentence of the first paragraph on page 2
Eventually, the judicial power itself was to be undermined by "court packing"
and by attacks calculated to make the courts subject to control by the Executive .
  Education is one of the vital areas involved in this attack on the American
system of government . The field includes not only elementary and secondary
schools, but also our colleges and universities . The tax-exempt foundations are
directly involved because they have supported this movement in the past, and
are still promoting it.
 educational system in America .
   Mr. SARGENT. That is right .
   Mrs. PFOST. And you say that the history of this movement i
 record of the greatest betrayal that ever occurred in American histor
   Mr. SARGENT. I think that is a correct statement .
   Mrs . PFOST . Do you feel that these tax-exempt foundations a
 knowingly placing their money in the hands of and stimulating th
type of socialistic method?
   Mr. SARGENT . I think they are doing it on purpose, yes, deliberate
 There is such a record of continuous notice, failure to do anything
   The CHAIRMAN. I am very anxious to get his testimony .
   Mr. SARGENT . I can answer this much more fully .
   Mr. HAYS. Mr . Chairman, if some of the spectators can't keep st
I suggest you get the sergeant at arms to clear them out . I am ti
 of the whispered advice .
   Mr. SARGENT . May I say it is difficult to answer fully and clear
questions like this because it includes evidence I am going to put
After the evidence is in, I can answer you much better .
   Mrs . PFOST . I realize that, but I was thinking that with this ty
of statement going out, perhaps we were enlarging on that one pha
of it and could get some direct answers .
   Mr. SARGENT. I will elaborate further . It is my opinion that
Rockefeller, Ford, and Carnegie Foundations are guilty of violati
of the antitrust laws and should be prosecuted . I have evidence
am going to present here on that subject and court decisions. I th
they are violating the prohibition against restraint of trade, and th
this is being done on purpose .
   Mr. HAYS. Why don't you turn that evidence over to the Attorn
General?
   Mr. SARGENT . You can decide what to do with it after you have
material .
   Mr. HAYS. This committee is not going to decide what to do wi
it. If you want my opinion, the committee ought to dispense rig
now without more of this.
   Mr. SARGENT . I am here on subpena to give you the facts . I wou
like to do it .
   Mr. HAYS . I am going to explore this statement of yours to try
get some facts about it, if I can .
   Mr. SARGENT . My answer is that I think this was done on purp
and knowingly.
   Mr. HAYS . You say, "Eventually the judicial power itself was
tie undermined by court-packing" ; just how were the courts packe
   Mr. SARGENT . By the Roosevelt proposal of 1937 in February,
the attacks on the judiciary which preceded it .
   Mr. HAYS . It didn't pass.
   Mr. SARGENT . No, but there was a continuous policy of loadi
judicial appointments for years with men of a specific philosophy a
 liscriminating against others who held counterphilosophy .
   Mr. HAYS. In other words, the courts were loaded all the 20 yea
the Democrats were in with Democrats ; that is a very unusu
situation .
about men having a philosophy similar to that which actuated the
so-called left-wing group .
   Mr. HAYS . The courts have been loaded a little bit along the way
by the present Chief Executive . He appointed the Chief Justice .
Perhaps the most significant social decision the courts ever handed
down has been the one they handed down last week, and with all of
this packing of these peculiar people they came up with a unanimous
decision.
  Mr. SARGENT . I am not talking about that decision .
  The CHAIRMAN . You do not mean to say that the President is trying
to pack the courts?
   Mr. HAYS . I am not accusing him of anything .
  Mr. SARGENT . In 1936 in October, before the Presidential election,
a group of educators sponsored and printed and put in the hands of
American schoolchildren a schoolbook advocating a plan to pack the
Supreme Court of the United States . I say that is a deliberate attack
on the judiciary, in the educational system, and I have the evidence .
  Mr. HAYS . You say that was a deliberate attack on the judiciary .
Do you realize that the Supreme Court has not always been composed
of nine members? There was one time when it had more . Was that
an attack on somebody?
   Mr. SARGENT. I think my answer, Mr. Hays, is this
  Mr. HAYS . In other words, anybody who disagrees with you and
your very peculiar beliefs, as I have seen them outlined here, is attack-
ing the system ; is that right?
  Mr. 'SARGENT . I want to answer your question ; yes. I think the
Senate Judiciary Committee finding that this court-packing bill was
dangerous and unparalleled is sufficient justification for my state-
                                                .
ment. The unanimous report of the Senate Judiciary Committee .
You asked me for my authority . I have in my possession a schoolbook
advocating the court-packing plan and putting it in the elementary,
and I think it was the secondary classrooms in those days before the
presidential election, and before the Congress of the United States
got the court-packing bill .
   Mr. HAYS . All right, that happened .
  Mr. SARGENT. Yes .
   Mr. HAYS . I was not here when you say it happened .
  Mr. SARGENT. It proves educators did it, does it not?
  Mr. HAYS . Mr. Chairman, I hate to do this, but I will have to ask
some person be put out if they cannot refrain from heckling . I admit
there are a lot of people who do not agree with me and that is all right .
   Mr. SARGENT. May I again request leave to follow my testimony?
  The CHAIRMAN . I was going to ask that the spectators be careful not
to make interjections .
  Mr. HAYS . I do not mind it for a day or two, but this has been
going on with one person since the hearing started . I do not know
whom she represents and where she comes from, and she has a right to
her opinion, and she has a right to write me a letter, but I do not want
any hand and arm signals .
  Mr. HAYS. To go back to one other thing, do you agree to any
change? It has been advocated for along time in textbooks and other-
wise that the voting age should be lowered to 18 . Do you find any-
thing significantly wrong with that?
the scope of what I am presenting here . I don't really know .
   Mr. HAYS . Of course, it is within the scope, because you are infer
ring that because somebody suggested that maybe 11 would be a bette
number than 9 that is un-American .
   Mr. SARGENT . No, I am talking about the use of foundations and th
educational system for partisan political purposes which has bee
done and which I am prepared to prove . That is what I am here fo
   Mr. HAYS . Do you think that lowering the age limit to 18 is
partisan political purpose?
   Mr. SARGENT . I think for an educational system to advocate it
lobbying and prohibited by statute ; yes .
   Mr. HAYS . You don't think a teacher in a classroom would not ha
a right to bring it up in a class of American Government and get som
discussion and opinion?
   Mr. SARGENT . I am not talking about that . I am talking about
foundation promoting that concept with its money . Congress sa
it should not be done under section 101, and I understand you ar
here to get evidence of that kind, that they have actively promote
issues.
   Mr. HAYS. Do you think if a foundation gave somebody money t
advocate it in a book that that would be bad?
   Mr. SARGENT. If the book was objective ; no . Slanted, presentatio
of issues is prohibited here . Suppression of the right of critica
analyses of scholarly findings is definitely an infringement of you
statute.
   Mr. HAYS . Do you believe that through any book that I happen t
hand you or I could go through any book on the subject you hand
and delete paragraphs here and there, that would make it slanted an
way we wanted to slant it?
   Mr. SARGENT . I am not talking about deleting paragraphs . I a
talking about a consistent policy of always supporting one side of th
controversy and never doing anything in support of the other . That
propaganda.
  Mrs . PFOST. You feel that the foundations have used their mone
to that extent?
. Mr. SARGENT . I think definitely they have. I think that is the cr
of this matter .
  Mrs . PFOST . You think they have not used their money on construc
tive books, but they will give out great donations on the subversiv
type of literature and further that type of printing entirely?
  Mr. SARGENT . Yes . I am convinced of it . In fact, I have bee
told that by people in the profession . Prof . John C . Almack, formerl
of the Stanford School of Education, told me one time that it is a wast
of time trying to get any money from the foundations for the conserva
tive side of these issues . That it could not be done . He was an experi
enced educator.
  The CHAIRMAN . You may proceed .
  Mr. SARGENT . Thank you.
  Here, then, briefly, is a chronology of the subversive movement as
first of all, general background material . I will commence by talki
about the Fabian Socialist movement in Great Britain . I have note
here . The data on this first sheet is taken from a source book whic
I think is a recognized and able authority . It is the book entitl
garet Patricia McCarran, the daughter of Senator McCarran . It is a
doctoral thesis resulting in the granting of her degree of doctor of
philosophy . It is a very extensive book based on original source
material .
   Mr. HAYS. You say she is a sister?
   Mr. SARGENT. She is a member of a Catholic order .
   Mr. HAYS. I didn't know they used her last name .
   Mr. SARGENT. That is her full name . Her full name appears on
the book and that is who she is. I have read the book myself .
   I am taking significant dates here to orient the British movement
with the American side of the picture . The inception of the move-
ment was the year 1883 ; an original Fabian group formed, composed
of Thomas Davidson, Edward R . Pease, and Hubert Bland . They
met in London and adopted an agreement to reconstitute society and
they adopted the name "Fabian."
   The Fabian system briefly consisted of four elements. Research,
to further their specific ideas ; education of a propaganda type to
carry it out ; penetration of governmental agencies generally, legisla-
tive and executive both ; and, finally, penetration carried to the point
of permeation resulting in complete control of the governmental
system .
   The following year, 1884, George Bernard Shaw joined the move-
ment and became, and was active, for many, many years subsequently .
In 1885 Sydney Webb, Sydney Olivier, and Anna Besant became
members . They established a publication known as the Fabian News
in 1891 .
   In 1892 they began active lecturing and campaigning . They elected
a member of Parliament that year . They moved into the university
field in 1895 and established a unit at Oxford . They founded the
London School of Economics
   Mr. HAYS . Mr . Sargent, that is all a matter of history . We know
about those characters . They have been pretty well discredited down
through the years. Nobody is paying much attention to them . Do
you think it is fair to waste our time?
   Mr. SARGENT. I think it is fair . They have not been discredited
and they have not stopped . There is substantial evidence that the
successors of that group are very intimately connected with American
affairs right now .
   Mr. HAYS . I have heard that charge bandied about for a good many
years, but it only results in somebody saying so . Nobody has ever
pinned it down . It finally boils down to, "well, he disagrees with me,
so therefore he is no good ."
   Mr. SARGENT . Won't you wait until I get through before you con-
clude that? Maybe you will change your mind.
  Mr . HAYS . I will tell you, the way you are going, some of the stuff
you are bringing in, I don't know whether you are ever going to get
through.
  Mr. SARGENT . If you will help me I will get there as fast as I can .
   By 1900 the movement had entered four of the universities in Great
Britain. I have referred to the Federal income tax movement here .
That began in 1892 with a demand for Federal income tax legislation
made at a time when the fiscal needs of the Federal Government re-
quired no such taxation . Some political objective must have been
idential veto. In 1.894, the United States Supreme Court held t
statute unconstitutional of the basis of the Constitution as it the
stood.
  The agitation continued . In 1909 Congress proposed the incom
tax amendment to the States and in 1913 it was adopted as the 16
amendment to the Federal Constitution . Unlimited tax power w
conferred. The effect was as I mentioned .
  Mr. HAYS . You say that was proposed in 1909?
  Mr. SARGENT. The amendment was proposed in 1909 .
  Mr. HAYS. That took a vote of the Congress?
  Mr. SARGENT. That is right, it was voted .
  Mr. HAYS . Do you have any breakdown of how many on each poli
tical party party voted on that?
  Mr. SARGENT . I don't know . I presume it was substantial .
  Mr. HAYS. In other words, both parties had already been indoc
trinated with this socialism as early as 1909?
  Mr. SARGENT . I didn't say that .
  Mr. HAYS . You say right here in your statement you handed out t
the press that this was a plot to establish the Federal income tax i
order to pave the way for national Federal socialism .
  Mr. SARGENT . I say the radical group had that in mind . The peopl
had a more immediate situation at hand . There were great abuse
in that period that we are all familiar with and reform of some typ
was undoubtedly due and needed.
  The conclusion I adopt is that a normal American movement fo
reform was perverted by the introduction of various things whic
were accepted and which became dangerous in practice and made ou
present situation what it is . There was a political purpose behin
this amendment obviously . The money was not needed . The ide
was to give the Federal Government the power to take money . Th
power to take money was given . The power to take money became
very important part in what followed .
  That is all fact . That is well known .
  Mr. HAYS . Some of it is fact.
  Mr. SARGENT. It is a fact the Government didn't need the mone
Look at the budget. It is a fact that that unlimited power was con
ferred . It is a fact that subsequently there has been a very extensiv
use of that power. It is also a fact that without this power socializin
of the United States would have been well nigh impossible .
  Mr. HAYS . Was the Government in debt in 1909?
  Mr. SARGENT. I don't think it had very much . The Civil Wa
was pretty much off the books and the budget was very low . Th
Spanish-American War was more or less a picnic . It only lasted
short time and the costt was not great .
  Mr. HAYS . We ought to mimeograph that and send it out to th
Spanish-American veterans .
  Mr . SARGENT . In the financial sense it was not costly . It lasted
short time . Financially I am speaking of . It was not an expensiv
war, and we had a period of very great prosperity and plenty o
resources.
  From the educational standpoint, the story begins about 1896 wit
the establishment of the Dewey Laboratory School at the Universit
a principle which has become destructive of traditions and has created
the difficulties and the confusion, much of it, that we find today .
Professor Dewey denied that there was any such thing as absolute
truth, that everything was relative, everything was doubtful, perma-
iiently doubtful, that there were no basic values and nothing which
was specifically true.
   The concept was revolutionary in practice . I don't know what
the good professor thought of his reasons, but the effect of it was to
undermine existing props and to make possible the specific thing I
refer to here, because as soon as ycu say there are no basic principles
at all, that everything is debatable and uncertain, changeable from
day to day, you automatically wipe the slate clean, you throw his-
torical experience and background to the wind and you begin all over
again, which is just exactly what the Marxians want someone to do.
   Therefore, John Dewey was a gift from the gods to the radicals .
B e was just tailormade for this sort of situation . I haven't the
faintest idea of what Dewey himself thought he was doing . I am
merely saying it happens and had this effect .
    Mr. HAYS . You would not think there is anything unusual in a
professor of philosophy coming up with some crackpot theory like
that.
    Mr . SARGENT. I would think it is somewhat significant and unusual
when a long parade of other people back up the man and make it
the guiding philosophy of an educational system .
   Mr. HAYS . You would not say that there ought not to be any new
 ideas or research in any educational system?
    Mr. SARGENT . No ; I didn't say that .
    Mr. HAYS . You say that any time we break with tradition we are
 automatically getting into something bad .
    Mr. SARGENT. I am saying it is generally agreed by philosophers
 that this philosophy of John Dewey was extremely destructive in
 practice and made it possible to accomplish the things that were later
 done . It brought about the policy of attacking the American tradi-
 tion. They attacked patriotism .
    Mr . HAYS . Let me try to tie that down with an example here .
 You say attack American tradition. There was a tradition around
 the time of Civil War that it was perfectly all right for you to buy
 your way out of the Army . I think the fee was $300 .
    Mr. SARGENT . That is an American tradition?
    Mr. HAYS . It was then. It was very reputable and nobody ques-
 tioned it and everybody did it .
    Mr. SARGENT . That is not what I mean by the word "tradition ."
    Mr. HAYS . It is hard to keep words in context and define them .
    Mr. SARGENT . Tradition as in the Declaration of Independence .
 That is a statute passed by the Congress and is a basic document . The
 principle of the Declaration of Independence was directly undermined
 and attacked by the philosophy of John Dewey .
    Mr . HAYS . Another document that you keep citing, and a very
 valuable document, is the Constitution . Did the Constitution have
 any reference to slavery at all in the beginning?
    Mr. SARGENT . Of course it did. You know that . Until 1808 .
    Mr. HAYS . That was part of the tradition?
 I mean the essentials .
   Mr. HAYS . What are you going to do, pick the traditions and
 rest is not according to your definition?
   Mr. SARGENT . No, I am going to talk about the essential rights
human beings . Most people agree on what that stuff is .
   One of the most fundamental concepts of all is the doctrine of
 alienable rights, the fact that your rights belong to you and my rig
belong to me and are not given to me by any majority in societ
that we acquire those rights at birth and we get them by natural l
or the laws of God.
   Mr. HAYS . I will go along with you. That is the first time to
 that you and I have been able to specifically get something down in
definition that both of us could agree on .
   Mr. SARGENT . All right. Dewey throws that out. He said not e
that one. That is overboard, too .
   The philosophy of John Dewey is a natural for radicalism becau
it makes everything uncertain and the subject of confusion . Th
deny there are such things as natural rights . They say that rig
are whatever the majority say, here today and gone tomorrow . - So
of an off-again on-again Flannigan affair .
   Mr. HAYS . Y' ou believe in laissez-faire?
   Mr. SARGENT. What do you mean by that term?
   Mr. HAYS . It is generally used in the same term . You know t
definition of it. Let-alone theory, that the Government should n
interfere .
   Mr. SARGENT . No ; I don't think there should be a complete want
governmental restraint. Anarchy would be the result of it .
   Mr. HAYS . There has been testimony before these hearings th
there has been a plot to do away with the laissez-faire theory .
   Mr. SARGENT . That word has been booted around to a great exte
Like "democracy," it has been picked up by all the Communist fron
and they throw it all over the place until the word is almost usele
for any practical purposes .
   Mr. HAYS . In other words, laissez-faire, democracy, or any oth
word has certain limitations?
   Mr. SARGENT . Some of those words have . Natural law means
very specific thing . I say that John Dewey's philosophy struck
mortal blow at natural law and that is the cement which holds th
country of ours together from the standpoint of religion, philosoph
and governmental policy .
   Mr. HAYS . You and I both apparently agree that John Dewey'
philosophy is not the kind of philosophy with which we would ass
ciate ourselves.
   Mr. SARGENT . That is right . Definitely . I think it is a very d
structive thing and very unfortunate .
   Mr. HAYS . But you would not say that John Dewey did not have
ri ht to believe that and to advocate it?
     r. SARGENT. No. All these people had a right to advocate the
things. But the foundations didn't have a right to step in and activel
promote one theory and throw the rest overboard .
   Mr. HAYS . Up to now you say the foundations did that and thre
the other one overboard?
foundations very shortly .
   The CHAIRMAN . You may proceed .
   Mr. SARGENT . On the basis of these principles John Dewey estab-
lished this laboratory school at the University of Chicago in 1896
and conducted experimental education . He continued until 1903 .
   Teachers College, which has become subsequently identified with
much of the conditions to which we will refer, became affiliated with
Columbia in 1898 .
  In 1902, John D . Rockefeller established his first foundation known
as General Education Board. From the standpoint of contemporary
affairs, that was just 1 year before the first Russian revolution, at-
tempted under Lenin, when they adopted the principles of Karl Marx .
There was violence, and in Russia at that particular time there were
threats which broke out in 1905 after Russia lost the war with Japan .
  The writers of this period were discussing many conditions which
were obviously bad and should be condemned. In 1904, for example,
Robert Hunter wrote his book entitled "Poverty," Steffens wrote about
The Shame of the Cities, Tarbell wrote the book The History of the
Standard Oil Company at about the same time . In 1905,' Charles
Evans Hughes made his investigation of life insurance scandals in
New York.
  The point is that the country at the time was in a very active con-
dition of flux due to these many influences which I think we are
familiar with.
  Jack London writes in 1905 in War of the Classes explaining how
he became a Socialist . In the same year John Dewey became pro-
fessor of philosophy at Columbia University and brought his concept
into that university .
  Now we come to the Intercollegiate Socialist Society . My authority
here is a publication of that organization itself, which relates the
facts regarding its formation . This is published by the League for
Industrial Democracy, which is the successor of the old Intercollegiate
Socialist Society. The pamphlet is entitled "Thirty-five Years of
Educational Pioneering,. I . D . Celebrates Past Achievements and
Asks Where Do We Go From Here? "
  Mr. HAYS. When was that published?
  Mr. SARGENT . It relates to the original history of the movement ;
copyright notice is 1941 . It was a meeting they held to discuss their
own history and background and recites what happened .
  The meeting which is reported on by this pamphlet, as the pamphlet
states, was held on Thursday evening, November 28, 1941, at their
3.5th anniversary dinner at the Hotel Edison in New York City . There
were three or four hundred members and guests present .
  One of the main speakers was John Dewey, president of the League
for Industrial Democracy, who is referred to here as one of the fore-
most educators and philosophers . Harry W . Laidler, the executive
director of the league was among those present . Harry W. Laidler's
speech gives an exact copy of the original call issued for the formation
of this prior group in 1905 and reads as follows . The heading is Call
  In the opinion of the undersigned, the recent remarkable increase in
Socialist vote in America should serve as an indication to the educated
and women in the country that socialism is a thing concerning which it i
longer wise to be indifferent.
  Mr. HAYS . When was this written?
  Mr. SARGENT . This was the original notice of 1905 being repor
At the subsequent anniversary dinner they put in their copy of
original notice of formation which I am reading .
   The undersigned, regarding its aims and fundamental principles with
pathy, and believing in them will ultimately be found the remedy for
fa.r-reaching economic evils, proposed organizing an association to be k
as the Intercollegiate Socialist Society for College Men and Women, Grad
and Undergraduate, through the formation of study clubs in the colleges
universities, and the encouraging of all legitimate endeavors to awake
interest in socialism among the educated men and women of the country
   Signers of the call for the meeting are : Oscar Lovell Triggs, Tho
Wentworth Higginson, Charlotte Perkins Gilman, Clarence D
row, William English Walling, G . Phelps Stokes, B . O . Flow
Leonard D . Abbott, Jack London, Upton Sinclair .
  The article goes on to state that the meeting was organized a
result of this call and held on the top floor of Peck's Restaurant,
Fulton Street, New York City, on the afternoon, September 12, 19
   Further on in the article it relates that in the year 1906 in p
suance of this plan, Jack London took a spectacular trip among c
leges . That was in early 1906 . It says that in scores of colle
the speakers of this organization presented to students the challe
of a new social order . It refers to present day leaders of thought
the movement, including Paul Douglas, Isadore Lubin, and a num
of others here .
  Mr. HAYS . Let us have them all .
  Mr. SARGENT. All right . Bruce Bliven, Freda Kirchwey, P
Douglas, Kenneth Macgowan, Isador Lubin, Evans Clark, Dev
Allen, John Temple Graves, Jr ., Marv Fox, Carl Llewllyn, Broa
Mitchell, Abraham Epstein, Otto S . Beyer, Theresa Wolfson, an
host of others at Stanford, Barnard, Columbia, Harvard, Clark,
herst, Oberlin, Princeton, Vassar, Yale, Johns Hopkins, Pittsbur
Illinois, Wisconsin, and other colleges . I read that without pa
phrasing .
  Mr. HAYS. What were they doing?
  Mr. SARGENT. It says here that many of these people were am
the active members of Intercollegiate Socialist Society college ch
ters during those days. In other words, these names relate to
early activities of the group .
  Mr. HAYS . That was 1906?
  Mr . SARGENT. You can't say exactly, Mr . Hays, because they
referring to the early days . He does not peg this particular thing
a date. It was during the early period as this pamphlet would in
cate, in any event .
   Mr . HAYS . It seems to me you might have missed the most signfic
thing in that whole thing . You have not emphasized it. You s
when you started out somewhere along in there that the signific
size of the Socialist vote must convince of one thing or another . T
 1905, but I will wager in proportion to the population it was lower
 than now .
   Mr. SARGENT. I have no idea. That statement appeared in the
 call of the notice .
   Mr. HAYS . Don't you think you are right?
   Mr. SARGENT. I would not want to hazard a guess .
   Mr. HAYS . In other words, you are getting pretty excited about
 something here that has proved over the years 1905 to 1954 that it
 didn't have enough drive of its own to survive .
   The CHAIRMAN . May I interject? You are making reference of
that in connection with the 1941 meeting of the LID as I understand .
Is that correct?
   Mr. SARGENT. Yes. The Intercollegiate Socialist Society, the pred-
ecessor for the Industrial League for Democracy.
   Mr. HAYS . What I am referring to is the original call for the
meeting.
   Mr., SARGENT. That is right.
   The CHAIRMAN . May I ask, is the League for Industrial Democracy
a tax exempt institution?
   Mr. SARGENT . It is my understanding that it is . This was clearly
a propaganda organization, Mr . Hays. It was formed, as its notice
shows in the first place, to actively promote a political movement,
namely, socialism .
   Mr. HAYS . I am not arguing with you, sir, that it was not a propa-
ganda organization or anything of the kind. It probably was .
   The thing that I am trying to find out is how much significance
did it have and whether it ever had any effect or not .
   Mr. SARGENT . I think it had a great deal of significance . Not in
the Socialist Party vote, but in making its policies effective in other
ways as the Fabians in Great Britain did . They infiltrated other
parties and worked their will in this fashion .
   They didn't go out and run for election . They used the attack
system by masquerading under other groups . That is exactly what
we find in this educational picture .
   This pamphlet I have before me shows that Robert Morss Lovett
became the first president of the Intercollegiate Socialist Society
and you will find from its proceedings that he was identified with
it for many years . Mr. Lovett has one of the most outstanding
records of Communist-front affiliation of anyone I have ever seen .
He belonged to a total of 56 Communist-front organization, this man,
the president of this particular group here .
   I have the list before me . He belonged at some date or dates
between this time and the year 1949, to one or more of these various
organizations, not necessarily, of course, simultaneously .
   Mr. HAYS. He is a bad actor, I take it, this fellow Lovett . Are you
going to read all 56 of those?
   Mr . SARGENT . He is an egghead . He is an educated fool who joins
anything and is a knockout for propaganda and used this organiza-
tion obviously for the purpose to which I refer . I think the record
can properly state something about the character of the people that
got in here because we are studying propaganda .
   Mr. HAYs. If you are going to use the word "egghead," and I have
no objection to it-it has become a generally accepted term-maybe
     49720-54-pt. 1	15
   Mr . SARGENT . You want a definition of egghead ; all right, I
it. It is in an article in a recent magazine . I think I would go for t
It is the American Mercury issue of June 1954 .
   Mr. HAYS. I think you probably would go for anything that
Mercury writes .
   Mr. SARGENT. The article is by Howard Lord Varney, who ha
lot of experience, and is called The Egghead Clutch on the Foun
tions. You might want to bring that man down here . He seems
have a great deal on the ball .
   Mr. HAYS. I will tell you if we bring any more down here like s
we have now I am in favor of the committee hiring a staff psychiatr
   Mr. SARGENT. I think somebody ought to put a psychiatrist on R
ert Morss Lovett .
   Mr. HAYS. I don't care whether he belonged to all of them .
only thing I was interested in was if he belonged to 56, why do
you put them in the record?
   Mr. SARGENT. I am glad to do that provided it is understood t
it will be part of my testimony .
   Mr. HAYS . Yes. We are trying to save time. If you read 56 C
munist front organizations
   The CHAIRMAN. They may go in as part of the record .
   Mr. SARGENT. I thought as part of the rule I had to read it or
equivalent to get them in .
   Mr. HAYS. By agreement we will put them in .
   Mr. SARGENT. I have a list in my binder, and give it to the repor
to insert .
   (The material referred to is as follows :)
References to Robert Morss Lovett, compiled from material furnished by c
        gressional committees, publications, public records, and other sources
                                                                          Appendi
       Organization                                                         page
National committee, All America Anti-Imperialist League 	
 Signatory, American Committee for Democracy and Intellectual Freedom_
American Committee of Liberals for the Freedom of Mooney and Billings-_
 Sponsor of American Committee for Protection of the Foreign Born ..;---- 349
Member, American Council on Soviet Relations 	
National advisory Board, American Friends of the Chinese People	371,
Sponsor of American Friends of Spanish Democracy 	380
Director, American Fund for Public Service 	
National vice chairman, American League for Peace and Democracy____ 390-3
                                                                    397, 401, 404
Vice chairman, American League Against War and Facism 	416, 424,
Signatory, Golden Book of American Friendship with the Soviet Union__ 467,
Advisory board, Russian Reconstruction Farms, Inc 	
Russian War Relief, Inc	
Sponsor and advisory board, American Student Union 	520
National advisory board, American Youth Congress 	535,
Advisory council, Book Union	
Citizens Committee for Harry Bridges 	
Chicago All-American Anti-Imperialist League 	
Signatory, Committee For a Boycott Against Japanese Aggression 	
Sponsor of Committee to Defend America by Keeping Out of War	
Committee to Save Spain and China 	
Sponsor of Conference on Constitutional Liberties 	
Advisory board, Film Audiences For Democracy 	
Friday	
Endorser, Friends of the Soviet Union 	
                                                                       Appendix IX
         Organization                                                     page No.
Official, Garland Fund	                                                         764
National committee, International Labor Defense 	 830
Speaker, International Workers Order 	                                          892
League of American Writers	                                                968,973
Advisory committee, League for Mutual Aid	                                     982
Endorser, American Committee for International Student Congress Against
   War and Fascism	                                                           1083
Chairman, August Peace Parade and Jane Addams Memorial	1103
National Mooney Council of Action	                                            1142
Sponsor of Mother Ella Reeve Bloor Banquet 	                                  1164
USA supporter, National Committee to Aid the Victims of German Fas-
   cism	                                                                      1170
National Committee for the Defense of Political Prisoners 	1177
National Committee for People's Rights 	                                      1179
Signatory, National Emergency Conference 	 1205,1207
National Emergency Conference for Democratic Rights 	1209,1214
Sponsor of National Federation For Constitutional Liberties 	1229, 1233
National People's Committee Against Hearst 	                                  1300
Sponsor of National Right-to-Work Congress 	                                  1308
Signatory, National Writers Congress 	                                        1340
Signatory, New Masses Letter to the President 	 1356
Committee member, Non-Partisan Committee for the Reelection of Con-
   gressman Vito Marcantonio 	                                                1375
Signer, Open Letter to American Liberals	                                     1379
Signer, Open Letter For Closer Cooperation with the Soviet Union	1384
Signer, Open Letter Protesting the Ban on Communists in the American
   Civil Liberties Union	                                                1386,1388
Advisory editor, Champion of Youth	                                           1447
Contributing editor, Science and Society 	                                    1456
Arrangements committee, People's Front For , Peace	 1462
Contributor, Soviet Russia Today	                                             1603
Chairman, Chicago Committee For the Struggle Against War 	 1618
National committee, Student Congress Against War 	 1620
Signatory, Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade 	 1651
Sponsor of the American Pushkin Committee                                     1772
Speaker, Greater Boston Peace Strike Committee 	 1780
   Robert Morse Lovett is given as a sponsor of various activities of the American
Peace Crusade, which was described (statement on the March of Treason,
February 19, 1951, H . Rept. No . 378, on the Communist "Peace" Offensive, re-
leased April 1, 1951) as an organization which "the Communists established" as
"a new instrument for their `peace' offensive in the United States" ; heralded by
the Daily Worker "the usual bold headlines reserved for projects in line with
the Communist objectives ."
   The Daily People's World of March 3, 1952, gave him as one of the sponsors
of the delegation of the National Delegates Assembly for Peace (identified by
the Daily People's World as a meeting of the American Crusade) who marched
on Washington, D. C ., April 1, 1952 .
   According to the Daily Worker of August 20, 1947, Mr . Lovett was cochairman
of the Call for the Conference of the Committee for Protection of the Foreign
Born . He signed the organization's letter in behalf of Communist deportation
cases (Daily Worker,' March 4, 1948) ; its statement in behalf of Gerhart Eisler
 (Daily Worker, December 21, 1948) ; and its statement against denaturalization
 (Daily Worker, August 10, 1950) .
   The American Committee for Protection of the Foreign Born was cited as
subversive and Communist by the Attorney General, June 1 and September 21,
1948, and the special committee cited it as "one of the oldest auxiliaries of the
Communist Party in the United States (reports March 29, 1944, and June 25,
1942) .
   Professor Lovett was one of the sponsors of the Cultural and Scientific Con-
ference for World Peace (National Council of the Arts, Sciences, and Profes-
sions) .
 horses and supports of the Communist Party and its auxiliary organization
 The National Council of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions was cited as a C
 munist-front organization ; and the World Peace Congress was cited as a Co
 munist front among the "peace" conferences .
   He signed a statement in behalf of the so-called Hollywood Ten (who we
shown to have affiliation with Communist organizations and to have had Co
 munist Party registration cards) who refused to affirm or deny membership
 the Communist Party.
   The Daily Worker (December 31, 1951, August 11, 1952, December 1
1952) named him as a speaker at a rally in New York City to "smash the Smi
Act" ; as signer of a telegram prepared and dispatched by the National Comm
tee To Win Amnesty for Smith Act Victims ; and as signatory to an appeal to
President requesting amnesty for leaders of the Communist Party who were co
victed under the Smith Act.
   According to the Daily Worker of March 2, 1953, after addressing the ni
annual dinner at the Jefferson School of Social Science, Professor Lovett ask
all present to "stand in tribute to two famous Marxist leaders of the Unit
States working class-Elizabeth Gurly Flynn and the late Mother Bloor ."
   The Jefferson School was cited by the Attorney General as "an adjunct of t
Communist Party (press release of December 4, 1947) ; special committee rep
No . 1311 of March 29, 1944, states "at the beginning of the present year (194
the old Communist Party Workers School and the School for Democracy we
merged into the Jefferson School of Social Science ."
   Elizabeth Gurley Flynn was convicted under the Smith Act on charges
conspiring to overthrow the United States Government by force and violen
 (Daily Worker, January 22, 1953) .
   Mr. SARGENT. Is this your hour of recess?
   The CHAIRMAN . No ; you may proceed .
   Mr. SARGENT . Following this movement here, Socialist grou
sprang up at Columbia, Wesleyan, Harvard, and many other coleege
There was a Princeton chapter set up in the year 1907 . We find th
the changes that began to prevail in the educational policies of so
of our leading groups became quite prominent around the year 193
   Mr. HAYS . When you read the list of colleges you got down to o
in Ohio . What do you mean to imply by reading those names, an
thing more than that they had a chapter of Socialists on the campus
   Mr. SARGENT. I am just citing the fact that it organized an acti
chapter on the campus . It is an illustration of the spread of t
movement very promptly among what are presumably leading unive
sities. I imply nothing beyond that statement .
   Mr. HAYS. That college happens to be considered in my State a
being one of the, best colleges and not only in Ohio, but in the Unit
States. It is very expensive . The only reason more people don
go .to,it is because probably they can't afford it . But I never hea
anything subversive and abnormal about it. I just want to be su
that the record does not imply that .
  The CHAIRMAN . From what was said, I drew no adverse interes
   Mr. SARGENT . I make no statement one way or another . It is n
my intention to do so . I was discussing the rather early spread
the movement .
  In 1913-this is interesting because it indicates the way this destru
tive Dewey philosophy began to take hold-in 1913 the Nationa
Education Association issued a document known as bulletin 41, whic
contained recommendations of the National Education Associati
regarding the teaching of history . I think this is pertinent becau
one of the things involved here has been distortion of history- an
its use for propaganda purposes .
  Mr. HAYS . What year was this?
   High school teachers of social studies have the best opportunity ever offered
 to any social group to improve the citizenship of the land. This sweeping
 claim is based upon the fact that the 1% million high school pupils is probably
 the largest group of persons in the world who can be directed to a serious and
 systematic effort, both through study and practice to acquire the social spirit .
   It is not so important that the pupil know how the President is elected or
 that he shall understand the duties of the health officer in his community. The
 time formerly spent in the effort to understand the process of passing a law
 under the President's veto is now to be more preferably used in the observation
 of vocational resources of the community .
   The committee recommends that social studies in the high schol shall include
 community health, housing, homes, human rights versus property rights, im-
 pulsive action of mobs, the selfish conservatism of traditions and public utilities,
    Here you have the inception of the move which became definite later,
 to use the schools for a political objective to modify the social order,
 and therefore to become instruments of propaganda .
    It began as early as 1913 .
    Mr. HAYS . Let us discuss that a little bit. What is wrong with
 that paragraph you read?
   Mr. SARGENT . It is promoting a particular thing which would obvi-
ously result in legislative action .
   Mr. HAYS . Name it . You see, you have the advantage there . You
have in front of you everything that you read . I don't . I thought
 I heard some things in there that I didn't think too much wrong if
they taught a little bit about in schools . For instance, the subject of
housing might well be something that could be profitably discussed .
   Mr. SARGENT. Isn't it propaganda to shift the emphasis from the
 Constitution of the United States to a housing project as a substitute?
    Mr. HAYS. We are not talking about housing projects. We are
talking generally about housing .
   For instance, whether or not bad housing and slum housing has a
 deleterious effect on community life . Do you think that should not
be mentioned in school at all?
   Mr. SARGENT. At the proper grade level I see no objection if the
discussion is balanced . I am talking about the shift from the Con-
stitution to the social things in substitution .
   Mr. HAYS. Did you ever teach school, Mr . Sargent?
   Mr. SARGENT. No, sir, but I have good friends who did and do . .
   Mr. HAYS. Do you think it would be possible to get an intelligent
group of high school people together and teach the Constitution with-
out getting into something besides the-context of the subject matter
in front of them? You are talking about a balanced presentation .
I have had a good deal of experience with high school students and
it is pretty difficult not to get both sides of the thing presented in
the average high school class.
   Mr. SARGENT. It is very hard to get both sides presented as things
operate now . I am a parent and I have children in the public schools
and I have had very serious discussions with many people on this .
   Mr. HAYS . I disagree with that .
   Mr. SARGENT. You were a teacher yourself at one time .
   Mr. HAYS . I have a call that we are wanted on the floor, the
minority, so could we adjourn now?
   The CHAIRMAN. We will recess now and resume at 2 : 30.
   (Whereupon, at 12 : 10 p . m ., the hearing was recessed to reconvene
at 2 : 30 p . m. the same day.)
   (The committee reconvened at 2 : 30 p . m ., upon the expiration
the recess .)
           TESTIMONY OF AARON M. SARGENT-Resumed
  The CHAIRMAN . You may proceed.
  Mr. SARGENT. At the time of adjournment, we were at the ye
1913 . That is the approximate date of the organization of the Rock
feller Foundation which is the second of the great foundations creat
by John D . Rockefeller, Sr.
  The first one, as you will recall, was General Education Board
the organization date of which was 1902.
  Mr. HAYS . Mr. Chairman, I have a point of order . I hesitate
use that word, but I feel I have to .
  I would like to read from the rules of procedure adopted on pa
7 of the first day's hearings
   (b) Executive hearings : That is the majority of the committee believes th
the interrogation of the witness in a public hearing might unjustly injure
reputation or the reputation of other individuals, the committee shall inter
gate such witness in closed or executive session .
   Now I do not know what the other two members of the committ
think, Lut the minority is of the unanimous opinion that this witne
is going to injure the reputation of other individuals and we fee
that he should be interrogated first in executive session before all
this is spread upon the record and has in the eyes of the public a ce
tain validity which it might not be entitled to .
   In support of this point of order, Mr. Chairman, I should like
cite to you the principle about which I argued this morning, namely
that by preparing a sort of blanket indictment and releasing it to t
press, that that got on the ticker and in the papers to the exclusi
of anything else about the hearings this morning .
   I feel as ranking minority, and if Mrs . Pfost disagrees with me, s
can indicate it, that a witness who is making as many general and sp
cific accusations as this witness seems to indicate he is going to make
should be heard in executive session so that the members of the com
mittee will have some knowledge of what is coming out and som
chalice to intelligently prepare a set of questions to ask him .
   Now, I will give you one example . I do not want to unduly dr
this out .
   But going back to the socialistic plot about the income tax, I had n
realized until I did a little checking during the lunch hour that th
income tax was first introduced by the Honorable Cordell Hull,
the State of Tennessee.
   I do not think that you would want the inference here to rema
that he was a socialistic individual and involved in any plot to fois
socialism on the United States .
   I do not think you would unless we went into it a little more fully.
   Mr. SARGENT . Nobody has mentioned Mr. Hull, Mr. Hays.
   Mr. HAYS . I have mentioned Mr . Hull . I point out to you that th
is in direct relation to your statement that this is part of the plot.
   Mr. SARGENT. I charged Mr. Hull with nothing . I said underlyi
this thing is a radical intellectual elite having a purpose of their o
   Mr. HAYS . In other words, he was a tool .
   Mr.. S4RGENT. He was led by the influence of the time, as many peo-
ple' were, to do a thing which turned out to be a rather effective device
for the radical clique .
   Mr. HAYS . Now, just a minute, until we dispose of this motion and
then you can make all the statements you want to make.
   Mr. SARGENT . I would like to speak on this Executive order, because
this suggestion is unfair to me and the manner in which this thing is
being protested .
   Mr. HAYS . You are not a member of this committee and if a member
of this committee makes a point of order you in nowise enter into it
one way or the other .
   Mr. SARGENT . I am an American citizen, and I have a right to
express my views, if I wish to do so .
   Mr. HAYS. You are an American citizen, but if you would act a little
bit more on the principle of fair play and Americanism, we would
get along a little better.
   The CHAIRMAN. So far as the Chair has been able to observe, the
witness'-has not up to now said anything derogatory about anyone, or
indicated that he had in mind doing so .
   If that should be the case, then I think the suggestion that you have
made would be well taken .
   My interest as chairman of the committee is to permit the wit-
nesses who know that the foundations have not been conducted as
they should have been in all instances, to present their views . If they
have something, the committee staff, and the committee itself, feels
justified in taking the time of the committee .
   Then I am equally interested in the foundations, or those who wish
to speak in behalf of the foundations, having the same opportunity.
   As I said originally, my only purpose, so far as I am concerned, is
to get an objective study made of this subject .
  Mr. HAYS . If this is an objective study, to drop the name of Senator
Douglas in as a Socialist, and then let Senator Douglas come in and
deny later on that he is one, then I do not understand the meaning
of the word "objectivity ."
  But this has happened and it happened this morning, I do not like
it and I- notice all the significant dates that this gentleman has pre-
sented have always been dates when the Democrats seem to have been
in power .
  It might have started back under the Republicans, but we did not
get to it until 1913, then something else, and we get to that in 1933,
something like that .
  I am not going to sit here and let it happen. There is more than
one way to get this . I do not want to be put in a position of walking ~
out of this committee, but I can .                       --`
  The CHAIRMAN . He named a group that had met as a committee .
So far as I am personally concerned, not having been as observant as
other people, I did not identify Senator Douglas as being on the list .
  Anyway, the list itself was not read in a relationship that cast any
reflection upon the members of the committee . At least I did not so
understand .
that need to be raised at the time, or if he brings in anybody in
derogatory way, then I think that is something that the committ
should consider at the time because we do not expect that kind of thi
in the committee .
   Mr. HAYS. I am willing to be just as cooperative and tolerant as
chairman can possibly be, but I think the committee certainly h
                                   .
carefully tried to live within the rules that were adopted .
   Mr. SARGENT. Mr . Reece, all I am proposing to do here is to r
material from books, pamphlets, and documents and to make norm
comment on the material I read .
   It is just a question of written material . My basic evidence is
tirely written.
  The CHAIRMAN . You have reached that point?
  Mr. SARGENT. Yes, Sir ; I am going to do that exclusively .
   Furthermore, the suggestion that this has a political twist is
correct. This is nonpartisan. I am reading a considerable amo
of material during the 1920's . In fact, I am covering in regu
fashion the significant events which occurred, when they took pla
based on their apparent relevance to the matter before you here .
  I will stick to that in entire good faith .
  Mr. HAYS . Mr. Chairman, perhaps it will be impossible for me
match your patience, but I am going to try .
  Again I am going to try to explain to you what I think is the bas
difference in opinion . That is this : that I have felt it was delibera
If I am wrong, I am very sorry, but up to now I have seen no reas
to change my opinion .
  We have people coming in here with these prepared statement
typewritten out, this scattergun technique, in which certain names a
dropped in, certain statements are made.
  The members of the committee have no advance opportunity
inform themselves, to find anything out about it, to find out even t
basic research to see whether it is true, and then the inference is le
  I do not think it is any inference in the case of the income tax, a
I keep referring to that, but it is such a glaring example that this
part of an un-American subversive socialistic collectiveness, to use
lot of terms that have been flung around with great abandon, pl
and the newspapers or anyone listening can get that impression .
  In addition, it is spread on the record of a committee of Congres
and the inference is that it is true and then later when the people w
may have been maligned or who may have been testified about i
way that put them in a bad light, come in and deny it, then it is n
news anymore.
  I think we ought to have some insight in what these people
going to say before we let them come in here with a shotgun and sho
off in all directions.
  Mrs . PFOST. May I ask a question?
  The CHAIRMAN . Yes .
  Mrs. PFOST . Is the staff of the committee so busy that they cann
type up for us the excerpts of the material that he is going to give
this afternoon, or the forthcoming witnesses?
  Now, the majority of the witnesses who appear before the commi
tee I am on, the Interior and Insular Affairs Committee, supply ea
always furnished them with typewritten copies, or, if the committee is
large, mimeographed copies .
   The CHAIRMAN . So far as typing statements, that could be done,
and copies made available, if the statement itself is available . But in
some instances, as I understood to be the case with Mr . Sargent, so
much of his material is going to be what you might call documentary,
that the statement itself that might be typed up was very sketchy and
in order to make a complete statement, the documentation had to ac-
company the statement .
   So that outside of his introductory references which were typed,
the rest of it was simply what might be called notations to guide him
in the presentation of his documentary evidence, which he has now
reached and is ready to give .
   Mrs . PFOST . I observed, however, after he had started in with his
particular binder from which he is working now, that he was reading
whole paragraphs out of it.
   Mr. SARGENT. In some cases I have read paragraphs merely for the
reason it would place a great burden on the Library of Congress to
physically haul each one of those books over here . I have simply
given in some cases reference to the fact that such a book was written
at that particular time to build what you might call climate .
   I think this is a matter of great importance to the American people
and I do not like the inference. There have been some very deroga-
tory remarks made about me, and to suggest an executive hearing is a
very unfair thing to me .
   Also I should think they should be put in the open .
   As long as I stick to books I think I am entitled to stick to these
facts.
   I am willing to submit myself to cross-examination . I think this is
a public matter to be transacted publicly. I will adhere to your rule
in good faith .
   food not throwing slugs at individuals . I am reading books, pam-
phlets, documents, and I am commenting on books, documents, and
pamphlets ; that is all .
   Mrs . PFOST . Of course, this morning you did refer to people by
name .
   Mr. SARGENT . I read them out of a pamphlet .
   Suppose I write some of these things out, suppose I had the time
to do all that and I presented that to someone here, does that mean
that there is to be a suppression of certain parts of the evidence which
I have here which appeared to be pertinent to this inquiry?
  Mrs . PFOST. No ; but certainly we would have an opportunity to go
over the material . and see what type of thing you were going to testify
on if we had it in advance and it would give us an opportunity, too,
to determine whether or not it would require an executive session, in .
stead of just a scattering of shot, as Mr . Hays has said .
  Mr . SARGENT . I will not go into executive session except under pro-
test and under process . I am not prepared to testify in any executive
session in this matter, unless compelled to by the processes of this
committee .
  I think it is improper and unfair to me, and I want to protest against
any such suggestion .
individuals.
  Mr. SARGENT. I interpret the remarks you have made as intending
cast reflection on me, and if such a hearing were held and the reco
not put out later, it would be used against, me as having brough
improper matters before this committee .
  Mr. HAYS . I am not trying to be unfair to you because I do no
want to be doing what you are doing to other people . All I sugge
is that if you are so afraid of an executive session, and I believe y
have spent 5 hectic days getting this material ready, let the staff spe
another hectic day or two getting it typed up so that we can at ,le
look at it before you come in here and start reading it .
  Do you think that is an unfair request?
  Mr. SARGENT . I think it is proper to let me proceed with this ca
as it is .
  Mr. HAYS . What you think is not going to have very much infl
ence on the vote of the committee, I suppose .
  Mr. SARGENT . I am unable to do that effectively . Furthermore,
would prefer to give testimony on this matter just as a witness doe
in court. A witness does not have a cold statement with him in cour
He testifies in a normal fashion . He subjects himself to being que
tioned as he goes.
  I am prepared to do that.
  Mr . HAYS . As you have probably observed already, these cntigre
sional committees do not run very much like a court of law . You c
comes in, by somebody . In many cases it is a lengthy, long-drawn-o
not get away with saying in a court of law . I will submit to you th
in most courts of law there is some preexamination before a witnes
comes in, by somebody . In many cases it is a lengthy, long-drawn-o
process by deposition and what-have-you .
  The CHAIRMAN . I . think we should all refrain from characteriz
tions when we are referring to other people . With my experien
it is that we all have a hard enough time .
   You take the statement that was made earlier, that if we are goi
to have the type of witnesses we have had, we ought to have a psychi
trist examine them . That casts a reflection on these two witnesses
  Mr. HAYS . I did not mean to cast any reflection on the other
witnesses as much as I did on the 1 here, to be frank about it .
  I do not know whether I am awake or dreaming, to tell you t
truth . Sometimes, to use the expression of one of the reporters th
morning, this could not be happening ; we must have all been aslee
  I have had a lot of nightmares, but never one like this .
  The CHAIRMAN . As I recall the way the statement was made, refe
ring to the ones that had been called, it was two very eminent schola
who were widely recognized in the field of education .
  Mr. HAYS. The first witness turned out to be a witness for t
other side on cross-examination, about the NEA . He certainly da
aged that argument terrifically .
  The second one, I think, is a kind of nice mixed-up fellow tha
needs straightening out somewhat . At the moment I think he is
little confused.
  I do not mean to imply anything is badly wrong with him .
  Mr. SARGENT . This reading this morning was at your request .
to start dropping names of political people, let us put them all in
the record . The record will show that .
  Mr. SARGENT . You asked for all the names, however, and I gave
them.
  Mr. HAYS . That is right, because you put in the name of Senator
Douglas and I personally believe you did it deliberately with malice
aforethought .
  Another thing you did, you brought in the name of Sister Mary
Margaret, and then you pause for emphasis and put in the name of
McCarran.
  I submit to you that ordinarily people in the orders do not use
the last name and I wonder if it is in the flyleaf of the book .
  Mr. SARGENT. It is . I gave you the information about the author
and the book.
  Previously you had been questioning authority for the statements I
was making. I want to make it clear that I was relying on a high-
type of research book in the statement I made .
  Mr. HAYS . Maybe we ought to subpena the officials of the Catholic
University and find out how high-type this is .
   I happen to know something about the background of the author
of that book, how long it took her to get a degree, and so forth, and
even that there was a little pressure used or she would not have it yet .'
  Mr. SARGENT . May I go on?                                        '
  The CHAIRMAN . I question seriously whether references of that
type ought to be thrown out in the committee.
  Mr. HAYS . If we are going to throw them out we ought to throw
them all out .
  I made a point of order. The rules are here . Are we going to
abide by them?
  The CHAIRMAN . I am interested in the decorum of the committee as
a whole. I do not know this Sister.
  Mr. HAYS . I do not know her, either, but I have done a little check-
ing . You see, that is where you are at a disadvantage. You have
to use your lunch hour to try to find out what kind of documents
these are.
  Mr. SARGENT . I will bring the book for you tomorrow morning.
  Mr. HAYS . The book itself does not mean anything . It is but one
person's opinion. You are buttressing your opinion with somebody
else's opinion.
   Mr. SARGENT. It is based on original documentary material. I
checked some material at the Hoover Institute on War, Peace, and
Revolution at Stanford University .
   It is considered to be the best document of its kind in existence .
I think any well-grounded scholar will tell you the same thing . The
book is eminently reliable .
   Mr. HAYS . I want to vote right now whether we abide by rule 1, or
whether we 'do not . I am going to insist we have a vote . We have a
right to have one.
  ' Statement of rector of the Catholic University of America, regarding this comment
appears at p. 1179, pt . 2 .
and 'I do not know how we are going to find out how the rest o
them will believe unless we put the question .
   The CHAIRMAN . There have been no names brought in here in
derogatory way so far as the chairman can see . It happens that
of the other 2 majority members has been engaged in drafting t
Social Security Act at this time-the amendments to it .
   The other is a chairman of another important committee .
   Mr. HAYS. That is interesting. They gave their proxies to you t
do their thinking for them . It says :
  If the majority of the committee believes .
   I do not see how we are going to get the basis for that unless yo
are going to do their thinking for them or have them here to s
what they think ; 1 of the 2 .
  I would not even object to this unusual procedure, Mr . Chairma
but we have had it before, and when we want to cross-examine the
people we cannot cross-examine them because tomorrow we hav
subnanaed so and so and the next day we have so and so .
  I know what is going to happen . When the great crusade bo
down completely, we will all go home and that will be the end of t
hearings and the other side will not be heard .
  The CHAIRMAN . Mr. Sargent says that he will make himself su
ject to cross-examination after his whole testimony is completed .
  Mr. SARGENT. I can come back here next Monday or Tuesday fo
that purpose and the transcript can be written and it can be studie
fully .
  Mr . HAYS . How long have you been here now under subpena?
  Mr. SARGENT. I arrived in town Wednesday morning, last Wednes
day .
        HAYS . The committee has been responsible for your expenses
I suppose, ever since then?
  Mr. SARGENT. I don't know what the rule is on that. I felt a ne
for an adequate preparation .
  Mr. HAYS . In other words, the taxpayers of the United States ar
paying for you to come from California to Washington and gettin
these documents together . .
  Did you have any help from our staff ?
  Mr. SARGENT. Yes, I did.
  Mr. HAYS . Now, the truth begins to come out . The staff helped y
out, too?
  Mr. SARGENT . Yes, that is right .
  Mr. HAYS. You know, that is a kind of funny thing . I cann
even get one staff member to help me because there is not any minorit
staff, but they help the witnesses that they go out and dig up and brin
in who present the same peculiar type of thinking apparently th
they do .
  Mr. SARGENT . May I testify, please?
  Mr. HAYS . I do not know . We have not decided yet .
  Mr. SARGENT . I am here to testify. I would like to do it, Mr . Hay
and to give you the truth based upon documents, books, and pam
   Mr. HAYS. Mr. Chairman, there is a principle involved . I would
like to go along with you . I like you and all that .
         ,
   The CHAIRMAN . The Chair overrules the point of order .
   Mr. HAYS . All right . I move that under the rules the witness be
dispensed with until such time as the committee can decide whether
or not they want to subpena him in executive session .
   Mrs. PFOST . I second the motion .
   Mr. WORMSER. Mr . Chairman, may I bring out one material fact?
   Mr. Sargent, to what extent has the staff of the committee assisted
y ou ? Personally I have had about 10 minutes conversation with you .
  have seen none of your material .
   Mr. SARGENT . Simply in getting various things for me which I de-
sired, and just in the way of general help, not a great deal of specific
help . I brought quite a quantity of stuff with me and I had various
requirements . I, of course, had to familiarize myself with your prior
proceedings to see what was desired .
   Mr. WORMSER . I supplied you with no material except what you
requested specifically for us to get?
   Mr. SARGENT . That is right. I went to the Library of Congress and
I ran down material on things which I lacked . I did my own' research
here . It has been entirely for your benefit .
   I have come here at personal financial sacrifice, as far as that goes .
   Mr. WORMSER . The implication that the staff has in any way pre-
pared your testimony is not correct?
   Mr. SARGENT . On the contrary, I prepared it myself and it is my
own views.
   Mr. HAYS . I was trying to find out the answer to that question,
whether they did, or not .
   The CHAIRMAN . The answer is that they did not.
   Mr. HAYS . All right, that is what I wanted to know, but they did
give him clerical help. Up to now I have asked for a transcript of
the facts from them and I have not been able to get them .
   The CHAIRMAN . I vote "no," and I also vote the proxy's "no ."
   Mr. HAYS. I have one more question to ask .
   Are you going to abide by the rules?
   The CHAIRMAN . Yes.
   Mr. HAYS. If the minority is not here, you cannot have a hearing?
   The CHAIRMAN . That is right, without any majority of the com-
mittee.
   Mr. HAYS . We will be back when we get a majority of the commit-
tee, but I want to hear the other two vote, themselves .
   The CHAIRMAN . Under the circumstances the committee stands ad-
journed until the morning at 10 o'clock .
   The committee tomorrow will meet in the caucus room in the Old
House Office Building .
   (Thereupon, at 3 : 20 p. m ., the subcommittee recessed, to reconvene
at 10 a . m . Tuesday, May 25, 1954, in the caucus room, Old House
Office Building.)
                  TAX-EXEMPT FOUNDATIONS

                      TUESDAY, MAY 25, 1954
                          HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
                      SPECIAL COMMITTEE To INVESTIGATE
                                  TAx-ExEMPT FOUNDATIONS,
                                                  Washington, D . C.
   The special committee met at 10 : 28 a . m., pursuant to recess, in
room 1301, New House Office Building, Hon . Carroll Reece (chairman
of the special committee) presiding .
   Present : Representatives Reece, Wolcott, Hays, Goodwin, and
Pfost .
   Also present : Rene A . Wormser, general counsel ; Arnold T . Koch,
associate counsel ; Norman Dodd, research director ; Kathryn Casey,
legal analyst .
   The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order .
   The Chairman would like to make a statement . In view of the fact
that one of the members of the committee referred to the other side,
and in other expressions inferred that the majority of the committee
or its counsel or staff had taken a side, I was trying to prove a case,
neither the majority members of the committee nor its counsel or staff
have a side in this inquiry, as the chairman has heretofore said . As
a convenience to the foundations, an initial report was submitted out-
lining the main lines of major criticisms of foundations which a}~re-
liminary study by the staff had shown were sufficiently supported by
evidence to warrant considering carefully .
   We are now in the first stage of assessing these criticisms by hearing
some of the supporting evidence . We shall later hear evidence sup-
plied by the foundations themselves, defending against these critic-
isms . We shall not prejudge. We shall not try to prove a case .
We are here to learn what the truth may be .
   Needless to say, criticism cannot be expected to come from the
 foundations themselves . It must come, if at all, chiefly from persons
not directly connected with foundation matters . We shall give
foundation representatives respectful attention . We do not see why
 persons who have criticism to offer are not entitled to the same cour-
teous treatment . Failure to give them such courtesy and inclination
 to condemn them for daring to criticize frankly and even severly
 would seem to me to deny such witnesses the privileges of citizens
 and to fail to give them the consideration to which we believe they
 are entitled from members of the committee .
   Mr. HAYS . Mr . Chairman, in reply to your prepared statement, I
 will say off the cuff that I did not infer that there was another side .
 I stated frankly that there was another side . Anybody who wants
 to read your statement in the Congressional Record or in volume 1
                                                                 235
 If anybody has the stomach to read that statement of yours clear
 through, and then get up here and say there is not a side, and ther
 has not been a very definite and, damaging attack made on foundations
 they better reread it.
    The CHAIRMAN . Mr. Sargent had not completed his statement whe
 we adjourned
    Mr. HAYS . I have a point of order before he starts .
    The CHAIRMAN . At the time of our recess yesterday . The question
 I think, arises whether he should be permitted, as he has expressed
 a desire, to complete his statement and then make himself available
 for criticism or for questioning when he has concluded-he agreein
 to make himself available for that purpose .
    The chairman's= interest is in orderly procedure and in moving
 forward . We spent the better part of the day yesterday and the wit-
 ness was able to make very slight progress on his statement, and
 am wondering what the wishes of the committee with reference t
procedure might be .
    Mr. HAYS . I have a point of order right now .
    The CHAIRMAN . May I hear it?
   Mr. HAYS . You sure may . I am quoting clause 25, rule 11, para-
graph (f) of the Rules of the House of Representatives, very briefly
   Each committee shall so far as practicable require all witnesses appearin
before it to file in advance written statements of their proposed testimony, an
to limit their oral presentation to brief summaries of their argument . The staf
of each committee shall prepare digests of such statements for the use of com
mittee members .
   I make a point of order that the witness has not complied with this
rule, that it has been practicable for him to do so inasmuch as the staf
typed up his statement for him, or at least assisted him in it, and
there is no reason why this rule should not be complied with .
   The CHAIRMAN . A preliminary statement was prepared yesterday
for the members of the committee, and likewise for the press . It wa
not comprehensive . The Chair had understood that the witness ex-
pected to confine, after his opening analysis of his testimony, largely
to documentation, and in view of that fact, the Chair indicated to the
witness that method of procedure would be satisfactory, if he made
himself available for questioning after the transcript was available
to the members of the committee .
   Mr. WoLooTT . Mr . Chairman, the situation seems to turn on whether
it is practicable or not . Those of us who have any responsibility in
presenting this testimony realize that it might not be practicable under
the circumstances for the witness to prepare a statement, nor for the
staff to digest it . The question turns on whether it is practical or
not . I think we would get more information that we are seeking with-
out a prepared statement than we would in a prepared statement .
   I am very much interested in the subject this witness is discussing
I might say I have my own views on Fabian socialism, or whatever
you might call it . I think the real danger to the American system of
government is not communism . The real danger to the American sys-
tem of government is Fabian socialism . If any of these foundations
are engaging in practices paralleling the growth of Fabian socialism
is the duty of Congress, surely the members of this committee, to find
out what is happening .
   I understand that this witness has qualified himself as more or less
expert on this matter . That is the thing that we are seeking, informa-
tion which he has .
   As far as anything else is concerned, I would let the chips fall
where they may . We have to make a record here and find out what is
going on . The Fabian Socialists work quietly through infiltration .
The Communists are out waving their red flags and yelling and
whooping and hollering and picketing . We can see that . We can-
not see Fabian socialism . We have to dig for _it . We are in the
process now, as I understand it, of digging for it .
   Mr. HAYS . Yes, sir ; we were digging back in 1892 .
   Mr. WOLCOTT . That does not make any difference . The Fabiark
Socialist movement in Great Britain went back to the turn of the
century. Great names were mentioned . George Bernard Shaw was,
one of the greatest of Fabians in Great Britain . He has the respect
of millions of people . I am sure that the founders of these founda-
tions would turn over several times in their graves if they felt that
their money was being used for the destruction of the American sys-
tem of government . Whether it is destroyed by socialism or com-
munism is not the point . I think we owe them an obligation, as well'
as ourselves and the people whom we represent, to find out whether
there is any danger to the American system, and where it lies . That
is the reason I am on this committee . I would not be on the com-
mittee if I was not interested in that subject .
   I have several other committees that take up most of my time . I
cannot stand here-I have not the-time-to bicker about the way in
which we develop the matter . We have got to do a job and it has got
to be done . It has got to be done pretty quickly . Otherwise, we are•
running the same course, a parallel course, to Fabian socialism which
destroyed Great Britain . I do not like it, frankly . I do not like
what I see on the horizon . The sun is not coming up . It is a very
cloudy day in America because of Fabian socialism .
   Let us bring it out here and find out what is going on.
   Mr. HAYS . There are a lot of differences of opinion .
   Mr. WOLCOTT . I know it . I have been charged repeatedly before'
the Banking and Currency Committee of years gone by of seeing-
ghosts under the table . Sometimes those ghosts come out and kick
you in the shins . We want to avoid that if we can .
  Mr. GOODWIN . Mr. Chairman, I am temporarily on leave from
another committee, and a most important executive session . I am not
interested at the moment in colloquy between members of the com-
mittee . I understand you have a witness ready to go forward . I
understand you have a point of order before you . Is there any reason
why that cannot be concluded .
  The CHAIRMAN . The point of order is over. The Chair sees na
practical justification for upholding the point of order, and he over-
rules the point of order .
  Mr. HAYS . The Chair would not uphold any point of order that
he did not agree with, no matter what the rule said . That has become'
pretty obvious in these hearings .
     49720-54-pt . 1	16
sergeant at arms, because I am going to be heard just the same . as yo
are. You may be afraid of Fabian socialism, but I am afraid of Re
publican dictatorship . Let us get it out in the open. You brough
in the shock troops here, so let us fight it out .
   Mr. GOODWIN . I understood we were going to hear the witness .
   Mr. HAYS . We are going to have more points of order .
   The second point of order is that the committee is in violation of th
rules of the House and the Reorganization Act, inasmuch as the minor
ity of the committee has been deprived of one single staff membe
   The CHAIRMAN . The Chair overrules the point of order .
   Mr . HAYS. *I will . say the Chair did not keep his word . When
helped the Chair get his $65,000, so you would not look' stupid wh
they were going to shut you off, you promised me a staff membe
Did you or did you not?
   The CHAIRMAN. NO one has individually a member of the staf
   Mr. HAYS . You have the whole staff .
   The CHAIRMAN . There is a member of the staff that was employe
on the recommendation of the gentleman from Ohio .
   Mr. HAYS . As a stenographer .
   The CHAIRMAN . No ; not as a stenographer .
   Mr. HAYS . That is what she does .
   The CHAIRMAN . As an analyst or researcher, I am not sure wha
her title is . That is what our understanding is .
   Mr. HAYS . I have a motion to make . I move that we hear th
witness in executive session in order to prevent further name droppin
and any further hurting of people who have no place in this hearin
   Mrs. PFOST. I second it .
   Mr. WohcoTr. As a substitute for that, Mr . Chairman, I move th
the witness be allowed to proceed with his statement without inter
ruption.
   Mr. HAYS . You can pass all those motions you want, but I wi
interrupt whenever I feel like it . How do you like that? So yo
might as well save your breath, Jesse .
   Mr. WOLCOTT. I should like to.
   Mr. HAYS . You run the Banking and Currency Committee withou
proxies, but in this committee you run it with proxies . You make t
rules as you go along for the majority, and I will make the rules fo
myself as I go along, and if this fellow does not want to bring in
statement, I will interrupt him whenever I feel like it . He better g
a bigger mouth than that .
   Mr . WOLCOTT . As I understand it, this committee made the rule
and we are proceeding under the rules adopted by this committee .
   Mr. HAYS . You know there is no such rule on this committee . Whe
did we make this rule?
   Mr. WOLCOTT . I understand we can vote by proxy . If we do no
I shall make a motion that we do vote by proxy. I understood th
I had given the chairman a proxy and there had been no objection to i
   Mr. HAYS . I just want the record to show that you rule one way
the committee of which you are chairman and another way here .
   Mr . WOLCOTT . You can make that record if you want to . The Bank
ing and Currency Committee of 29 members have asserted themselve
on a good many occasions, and we get along very nicely in that com
have been adopted, if any have been adopted . I do not rexnemiber_ .that
any have been adopted . We operate under the rules of the House .
   Does anybody want to support a substitute motion? I move a sub-
stitute motion to the motion made by the gentleman from Ohio that
the witness be allowed to proceed with his statement without interrup-
tion, and at the conclusion of his statement that he subject himself to
questioning.
   Mr. GOODWIN . Second .
   Mr. HAYS . I have something to say on that motion. It might take
Mite a little while . In the first place, what this motion entails is
that this fellow can come in here and do what he did yesterday .
   Mr. GOODWIN . Who is "the fellow," may I inquire?
   Mr. HAYS. Right down here .
   Mr. GOODWIN . You mean the witness?
   Mr. HAYS . I will call him anything I like . We understand each
other .
   Mr. GOODWIN . Mr. Chairman, I have something else to do
besides	
   Mr. HAYS . Go ahead . Whenever you go, the minority will go, and
that will be the end of the hearing . If you can just stay here and
be patient, I have a right to be heard on the substitute and I am
going to be heard on the substitute .
   The CHAIRMAN . Reasonably .
   Mr. HAYS . I will decide what is reasonable . In other words, you
know the trouble around here-and this is pertinent, too-that there
have been too many committees in which the minority has allowed
itself to be gaflied into submission and silence . I am going to be the
kind of minority that does not go so easy for that gaflle stuff.
   Mr. WOLCOTT . You have been in the minority for 20 years .
    Mr. HAYS . You know the funny part of it is that most of you fel-
 lows are still in the minority, because you don't seem to have the
 responsibility to run this Congress. That is why the great crusade
is in reverse.
    Mr. WOLCOTT. If the minority will allow us to assume our responsi-
 bility, we will get along .
    Mr . HAYS . The . minority on this committee is not going to sit here
 silent and have peoples' characters assassinated at will by dropping
 their names in as Senator Douglas' name was dropped in yesterday,
 deliberately, because it was 1 of only 2 names the witness mentioned
 out of a whole series of names. He had his name underscored in the
 p amphlet that he was reading from . He had the name "Paul Doug-
 las" underscored.
    The CHAIRMAN . But the others were being put in the record .
    Mr. HAYS . At my insistence, let the record show .
    The CHAIRMAN . No, they were being put in the record .
    Mr. HAYS. No, they were not being put in the record . The only
 thing that was going into the record was what this gentleman was
 going to say . I said if you are going to read-the record is here, and
 if you want to start reading from the record, I will read from the
 record.
    Mr. WOLCOTT. I ask for the question.
    Mr. HAYS . I am still talking .
 with a shotgun and shooting in all directions, and the committee do
 not want to give protection to the people whose characters he is goin
to assassinate . That is what the substitute motion does . I think i
 is bad and in violation of the rules of the House . It is in violatio
of the rules of orderly committee procedure which you seen to be s
 concerned with . I just want the record to show that if the majorit
 wants to let people like this come in and do that, that is up to them .
    The CHAIRMAN . All in favor say "Aye."
    Mr . WOLCOTT . Aye.
   Mr. GoonwIN. Aye .
   The CHAIRMAN . Opposed, "No ."
   Mr. HAYS . No. .
   Mrs. PFOST . No .
   The CHAIRMAN . Aye . Three have voted in the affirmative an
two in the negative . The substitute motion is carried .
   Mrs . PFOST. Mr . Chairman, I have a motion . I move that th
committee subpena Dean Rusk, president of the Carnegie Foundation,
and hear him just as soon as possible .
   Mr. HAYS. Would you like to make that more specific and say "a
soon as we finish with this witness"?
   Mrs . PFOST . Yes . I will add that, "as soon as we finish with thi
witness ."
   Mr. HAYS . I will second that motion .
   The CHAIRMAN . The committee has had in mind hearing Dea
Rusk . I think the chairman's own view is that there ought to be a
orderliness about the procedure . No doubt Dean Rusk
   Mr. HAYS . What is disorderly about subpenaing him next?
   The CHAIRMAN . So far as the chairman is concerned, he certainl
has no personal objection to his appearing at any time .
   Mr . HAYS . I am anxious to ask him 1 question, just 1, I promis
you, and if he answers it as I think he will, I may ask a second t
 ust complete an identity .
   The CHAIRMAN . Who is that?
j




  -Mr . HAYS . Mr . Rusk . I will give you a promise that is all I wan
to ask him . But if he answers the question as I believe hP will, i
may change the whole course of these hearings, and we may find tha
we have to back up and make a fresh start .
   Mr . WoLCoTT. May I ask the chairman if it is the intention of th
staff to have Dean Rusk before the committee?
   The CHAIRMAN . That is the intention ; yes .
   Mrs . PFOST. How much later on, Mr . Chairman?
   Mr . Kocl-I . As soon as all of the so-called criticisms are before th
committee so that Dean Rusk and anybody else can answer all of them
   Mr . HAYS . Is there any reason why he can't come_in and answer
one question that will take perhaps 5 minutes?
   Mr . KOCH . I would suggest that maybe we could stipulate that
you send him the question and let it be read into the record .
   Mr . HAYS . No ; I want him to appear under oath . He has to b
under oath or else the answer is no ; god .
   Mr. KOCH. Couldn't he -put it in an' affidavit?
   Mr. HAYS . No .
a lot of other questions as a matter of convenience for him-maybe I
should not be arguing his convenience-but later on he may want
to be on for a whole day .
   Mr. HAYS . It only takes an hour for him to come down-where is
he, in New York?
   The CHAIRMAN. The plan of the procedure, may I say for the mem-
bers of the committee who have not all had an opportunity to be here
all the time, was to present what was generally termed a line of criti-
cism against the foundations . Then the foundations and those who
might be interested in speaking on their behalf would have full knowl-
 edge of everything that was said and be able to make a complete
coverage, or as complete as they desire to do so . That was the pro-
 cedure as I indicated in my statement a little earlier, that we in-
tended to follow . The Chair has no deep feeling about it one way or
another . I shall consult the attitude of the other members of the
committee.
   Mr. HAYS . Mr . Chairman, let me say that you have expressed a great
deal of concern both here in public and in private about the expediting
of these hearings . I told you that if the minority could have a feeling
that any slight wish that it might have might be respected that you
might find it easier to get along with the minority .
   Now, we are only asking in the form of a motion that Mr . Rusk be
brought in here for 5 minutes. We will even give you a time limit on
him .
   The CHAIRMAN . I would hardly be inclined to feel that we bring
him in under limited time .
   Mr. WOLCOTT. I have a good many questions to ask all of these
foundations when they come in .
   Mr. HAYS. I have no objection to bringing him back later, Mr. Wol-
cott, but there is a very pertinent thing that ought to be brought out at
this point, and I want him here to ask him, . It has a great deal of
bearing, as you will see . I can' say what it is at the moment .
   Mr. WOLCOTT. How can we vote intelligently
   The CHAIRMAN. If the witness is to be called, it would not be the
chairman's thinking that he ought to be called subject to limitations .
   Mr. HAYS . I don't care whether you do or not . I merely offered
that to your convenience to show you that we were not trying to dilly-
dally or delay by having him here .
   Mr. WOLCOTT . Question .
   The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will either put the question or he will
say that Dean Rusk will be summoned to appear after we have con-
cluded with Mr . Sargent's testimony .
   Mr. HAYS . That is satisfactory.
   Mr. WORMSER . Mr. Chairman, may I respectfully suggest that while
counsel has not the slightest objection to calling Dean Rusk for this
purpose, we hope it will not be a precedent so that the procedure we
planned will be disturbed .
   The CHAIRMAN . It is not so intended . It is an exception .
   Mr. HAYS. Let me say to you this, Mr . Wormser, that we are using
the name Dean Rusk . I am not acquainted with the gentleman at all .
I never met him that I know of . But I believe he is the president of
the Carnegie Foundation .
   Mr. WORMSER . Rockefeller .
  Mr. WORMSER . We intended to call him
with Dean Rusk.
  The CHAIRMAN . That was so understood, and the chairman will issu
a subpena to that effect .
   Mr. WORMSER . Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, one more thing . Ther
was some difficulty in arranging for two professors to appear nex
Tuesday, Professor Rau of Yale, and Professor Colgrove, formerl
of Northwestern. It is rather difficult to get these men who are oi
active duty . Could I put them on Tuesday?
   The CHAIRMAN . Dean Rusk will not consume all day Tuesday, an
I would suggest that they be available when Dean Rusk completes hi
testimony.
   Mr. WORMSER . All right .
   (Discussion off the record .)
   The CHAIRMAN . This is a friendly discussion here .
   You may proceed, Mr. Sargent.
        TESTIMONY OF AARON M . SARGENT, ATTORNEY,
              SAN FRANCISCO, CALIF.-Resumed
  Mr. SARGENT. During the course of our discussions yesterday, the
was reference to an original source book upon which I relied in givin
certain testimony regarding the early history of the British`. Fabia
movement.
  Mr. HAYS . I have a question right there, and that is this : On the
source books and these various things you are going to read into th
record, will there be many more names read into the record?
  Mr. SARGENT. I will read the title of the book, I will read the auth
of the book, I will read literally and exactly the order in which ma
terial appears, any panel of names starting with the first name an
going to the last name, and making no selection of my own in betwee
the first and the last . I do not intend to create the inference you su
gested yesterday, I assure you, sir . That will not happen again .
  Mr. HAYS. All right.
   Mr. SARGENT. I am referring to this book now because there w
some comment
  Mr. HAYS . I have another question right there .
   Mr. SARGENT . I understood I was not going to be interrupted .
  Mr. HAYS . You misunderstood then . You did not hear what I sai
You saidd you didn't intend to create the inference that was create
yesterday. As I read the press this morning, I read in one of t
papers, a New York paper, that some reporter asked you if Pau
Douglas which you mentioned, and you mentioned only one othe
name at that point in the testimony
   Mr. SARGENT. Isadore Lubin was the other name .
   Mr. HAYS . If that were the Senator from Illinois, and the pape
quoted you as saying that you presumed that it was ; is that correc
   Mr. SARGENT. I thought it was, yes, because of Paul Douglas' subse
quent appearances at various meetings of the League for Industri
Democracy, as shown by its publications .
   Mr. HAYS. Then you did intend deliberately to put Paul Douglas
name in the record.
aside from showing the fact that he was there . I underscored those
two names because
  Mr. HAYs . That is exactly what
  Mr. SARGENT. May I finish my answer, please? I underscored those
two names because those names were known to me .
  Mr. HAYS. Mr . Sargent, apparently the minority is going to . be
overruled quite a bit, but the minority is going to insist that we try
to conduct this as nearly as possible in conformity with otherr con-
gressional hearings . When any member of this committee-majority
or minority-asks you a question, that doesn't give you an automatic
license to make a speech . You could have either answered that ques-
tion "yes" or "no ." That is all I want . If you are so anxious to
conserve time, perhaps if you would just be a little more succinct in
your answers to the questions I ask you, we could conserve some time
that way .
  I ask you, did you deliberately intend to put the name of Paul
Douglas in the record?
   Mr. SARGENT . No, not in the sense in which you ask the question .
   Mr. HAYS . You are interpreting the sense I ask the question?
   Mr. SARGENT . No. I would like to explain my answer. May I do
so?
  Mr. HAYS . Did you have his name underscored in the pamphlet?
  Mr. SARGENT. Yes, along with other names.
   Mr. HAYS. All right, that is enough .
   The CHAIRMAN . You may proceed .
   Mr. SARGENT. I did not read the remaining names because they were
not particularly known to me especially, and I was trying to conserve
the time of the committee . There was reference to this book on Fabian-
ism . I have it before me . It was part of my luggage I brought from
California with me . The exact title of the book-I am reading on the
cover itself now-is, Fabianism in the Political Life of Britain, 1919-
31 . The author's name given below is McCarran . At the bottom
the publisher's name, Heritage Foundation .
   The next item on the flyleaf reads as follows
  Fabianism in the Political Life of Britain-
   Mr. HAYS. Just to get the record straight, would you be able to
mention the names of any other books published by this Heritage
Foundation?
  Mr. SARGENT . Clarence Manion's book, The Key to Peace, has been
published by them and distributed widely through the American
Legion .
   Mr. HAYS . He is the fellow that Eisenhower fired?
   Mr. SARGENT . He did not fire him . Are you attacking Manion along
with the rest of them?
   Mr. HAYS . No, I wanted to know if it is the same company that
published his book .
   Mr. SARGENT . They do, and I think the American Legion and many
Members of Congress endorse that as a very valuable contribution to
the subject .
   The flyleaf is entitled, "Fabianism in the Political Life of Britain,
1919-31 ."
  This dissertation was conducted under the direction of Prof . John T . Farre
as major professor, and was approved by Prof . Friedrich Engle-Janosi, and R
Wilfred Parsons, S . J ., as readers .
  The title page itself, and I am reading in full, is the following
  Fabianism in the Political Life of Britain, 1919-31 .
  A Dissertation.
  Submitted to the-
  Mr . HAYS. Mr . Sargent, may I interrupt you again?
   Mr. SARGENT . Yes.
  Mr. HAYS . I would like to be a little patient with you and let yo
read as much as you like. This committee also has some problems an
one of them is the lack of time to do everything that we would li
to get done . If you are going to spend your time reading flyleav
.and title pages, is there any objection-and I will assure you the
will be none-if we include the title page and flyleaf in the record
You have been 5 minutes reading that and what does it mean aft
you have read it?
   Mr. SARGENT. I am very anxious to save time . There was referen
to the thing. I want to say this, that this shows on its face it is a di
sertation submitted to the faculty of the Graduate School of Arts an
Sciences of the Catholic University of America in partial fulfillme
of the requirements of the degree of doctor of philosophy, and t
author's name appearing in the book is Sister M. Margaret Patric
McCarran, Ph . D ., of the Sisters of the Holy Names, second editio
   As some evidence of the thoroughness of the work, I would refer t
the bibliography in the back. It cites 85 authors and material, a
in addition it refers to Fabian treatises and pamphlets, tracts, arti
cles, a wealth of source material .
   It is my opinion and of many others who study these subjects tha
it is the outstanding book of its kind . I have the book and wou
like to leave it with the clerk for the convenience of any member o
the committee to examine .
   The CHAIRMAN . Filed with the committee, but not for printing .
   Mr. SARGENT. Not for printing, hardly, no .
   Mr. HAYS . Because we don't have a copy of what you are going t
say, it is very difficult to keep all these straight . Would you repea
the title of that once more, please?
   Mr. SARGENT. You mean the title page? Fabianism in the Polit
cal Life of Britain, 1919-31 . The first chapter is the introduction
  Mr. HAYS . Would you want to give us a little digest of what this
all about?
  Mr. SARGENT . What, the book?
  Mr. HAYS . Can you give us a thumbnail sketch of what its con
clusions air, or anything?
  Mr. SARGENT . The book itself	
  Mr. HAYS . Or is it just a running history of the movement?
  Mr. SARGENT. First of all the introduction, the valuable part fo
present purposes, the introduction itself, which gives the early histor
of the development of the movement there in Great Britain commenc
ing in the 1880's and running down to the 1900's . It is necessary f
the author to give that as background before the commencement o
her study. She picks up the period from 1919 to 1931, explaining th
That is what the book is about.
   Mrs. PFOST . In Great Britain?
   Mr. SARGENT . Great Britain ; yes . It is significant because it is my
j udgment a parallel of certain efforts that are being made in this
country . I will read you the various titles if you want the scope of it .
   Mr. HAYS . No ; I was trying to get a general idea of what is in it .
   Mr. SARGENT. The period under critical study is 1919 to 1931, but
the background material is the one to which I referred, namely, the
inception of the Fabian Party and the persons identified with it .
   Mr. HAYS . I understood you to say that in your opinion there is
a parallel between that movement in ngland and some similar move-
ment here .
   Mr. SARGENT . Yes, there is a tie'-there is apparently a tie-in .
   Mr. HAYS. Do you think there is any movement in the United
States, even a small one, which might be roughly compared to the
Nazi-Socialist movement in Germany?
   Mr. SARGENT . I wouldn't compare them as such . No, I think there
is a radical intellectual elite that is attempting to subvert and guide
the policies in our country and the foundations are aiding them
financially.
   Mr. HAYS . We sort of got off the trail there, didn't we? I am
asking if there is any group which would be diametrically opposite to
that, who would like to put the country in some sort of dictatorship
of wealth, we will say, and sort of orient all thinking into their way
of thinking, such as the fact that big wealth should be allowed to
be predatory, it should not have any income tax, and that the oil deple-
tion allowance ought to go up from 271/2 percent, I have heard the
figure to 75 percent, and things like that . Do you think there is any
concerted group that is pushing that kind of philosophy?
   Mr. SARGENT . It is not that kind of picture . It is a different picture,
but it is subversive . I will answer that fully when I complete my
evidence here. The evidence I have here bears on that question .
   Mr. HAYS . When you get through your testimony, I will be glad
to ask you again .
   Mr. SARGENT . I will be glad to have you make a note of it and
remind me .
   My position in this matter, first of all, I think I should state clearly
as an aid to free consideration of my evidence . The position I take is
that we have here involved a right of freedom of inquiry . That in-
cludes the right to make an academically free inquiry into the success
and failures of the past 50 years, to determine our future course of
action with due regard to the results of such an analysis competently
made . We have the right to consider and to give proper weight to
such views as expressed along that line by a scholar such as Clarence
Manion in his book, and others . In short, that particular point of
view is entitled to equal consideration and equal publicity with the
views of those who may happen to disagree with this particular wing, .
if you want to call it that .
   Mr. HAYS . Let me ask you a question right there. I am inclined to
agree with that as I understood you reading it . You say that you
believe that everyone should have a right to freedom of academic in-
quiry-is that the way you stated it-and that the views of both
   Mr. SARGENT . Yes, I am standing here particularly for the righ
of what I call critical study and analysis and the publication of th
results : of that critical study and analysis, and the right to have
foundation support in making it .
   Mr. HAYS . That leads me right up to what I want to ask you. Yo
say, or you are implying-I think you are saying, and I don't want to
put words in your mouth-that the foundations have not been sup
porting your point of view.
  Mr. SARGENT. Definitely .
  Mr. HAYS . You think the Congress ought to make a law and say
"Look, you foundations have to support Mr . Sargent's point of view,
is that right?
   Mr. SARGENT . No, I don't say anything like that . I say if the
don't do that, they become propagandists for one side and cease to
be educational, and should forfeit their exemption privilege .
  Mr. HAYS . You don't think all foundations are on this side?
   Mr . SARGENT . I think you will find an amazing picture if you in
quire into it .
  Mr. HAYS. I have done a little inquiring into it . I am not a: sel
appointed expert on the subject . But there are some foundation
which do give the other side . What about the Heritage Foundation
  Mr. SARGENT . Do you know the Heritage Foundation applied t
the Ford Foundation for a grant to distribute Manion's The Key t
Peace, and could not get the money? Do you know that?
  Mr. HAYS . I don't know that, but I would say that a lot of peopl
would say that is using intelligent judgment on the part of the Ford
Foundation .
  Mr. SARGENT . That is a fact.
  The CHAIRMAN. For the record the chairman might state that th
Heritage Foundation is not a foundation in the tax-exempt sens
of the word.
  Mr. SARGENT . That is correct .
   Mr. HAYS. I am glad to have that in the record . I didn't kno
that.
   Mr. SARGENT. No ; it is a business corporation .
  Mr. HAYS . As I say, I am not an expert .
  Mr. SARGENT. But the Ford Foundation was unwilling to appro
priate money to aid the distribution of a work of academic merit
Clarence Manion's book, here.
  Mr. HAYS . You know it is a funny thing, but I have a copy of tha
book on my desk and I have read it . And there are certain things i
it which I think are an interesting point of view . I don't agree wit
it 100 percent. I certainly would not criticize any foundation be
cause they didn't see fit to distribute it, by and large . As a matter o
fact, I think they would have wasted a lot of money if they had
because I don't think too many people would have read it if you made
a present of it . It is pretty heavy going. You send 1,000 copies t
the first 1,000 names you pick at random out of the telephone book in
Washington and you won't find many people reading it.
  Mr. SARGENT . I have some tangible evidence to submit on that point
regarding the impact of this thing on the publishing business which
I will give you in due course .
        ,
that ri~ht?
   Mr. SARGENT . I am an officer in a foundation which has been incor-
porated by myself . I left the articles here, yes . It was organized
last August 1953 . I am the president of it. It is merely a corpora-
tion with no funds and no activities yet .
   Mr. HAYS. What is the foundation supposed to do? What is
its purpose?
   Mr. SARGENT. Its purpose is to study revolutionary movements,
p ropaganda, and techniques, and to endeavor to prepare educational
materials for the more effective combating of the advance of socialism
and communism.
   Mr. HAYS . What has prevented you from going ahead and doing
that?
   Mr. SARGENT . One thing that has prevented it is that I have been
surveying the ground to find sources of money which are acceptable .
We do not want to accept money under conditions involving financial
censorship or control of our operations . We want to be in a position
to proceed objectively without being required to stop following some-
thing significant because somebody's toes are being stepped on . Under
those conditions we cannot use large foundation money, because we
believe the result of this study will be critical to their operations .
Therefore, we must find other patriotic money .
   Mr. HAYS . In other words, you know what you are going to find
out before you start?
   Mr. SARGENT. No, we don't. We have some idea from what we
found . The evidence I am going to give you, if permitted, will show
precisely why I think that is the exercise of good judgment .
   Mr. HAYS . You are going to be permitted . I can stay here all
summer if necessary.
   Mr. SARGENT . May I go on, please?
   Mr. HAYS . No ; I have another question I want to ask. I have to
insist that you answer the questions, and you can go on when I am
through asking the questions .
   Mr. WOLCOTT . I thought the motion was that he be allowed to con-
clude his statement. I am very much interested in his statement . I
am not so interested in your questions frankly .
   Mr. HAYS . I know you wouldn't be . That is one reason I am ask-
ing them . We can either go ahead or under the rules the minority can
leave and stop the hearing . Which way do you want to do it?
   The CHAIRMAN. The other mgmber stepped out momentarily.
   Mr. HAYS . He is not here .
   The CHAIRMAN . He is available and will come back.
   Mr. HAYS . We may have to leave, and I am going to insist . You
said yesterday you would obey that rule .
   Mr. WOLCOTT. It is a prerogative of any Member of Congress to
leave any committee any time he sees fit . It is also the prerogative
of the committee to meet and adopt such rules as are necessary for
orderly procedure.
   Mr. HAYS . Let me say, Mr . Wolcott, that you are not going to gag
 the minority here .
mane to any subject before any committee of which I am a membe
    Mr. HAYS . And also you have to call on the right of the chairm
to overrule any point of order even if it is a rule of the House.
other words, we will make the rules as we go along . I will play th
way, too . I have one more question.
    In other words, you are not operating, because you do not have a
money.
   Mr. SARGENT . Because we have not found acceptable money as ye
   Mr. HAYS . Don't you think if the motives of your foundation
and I am not questioning you on that-are what you say they are, y
could find some money if you look for it?
   Mr. SARGENT . I have presented some applications . We are al
studying the practical problems involved in how to carry on su
 an operation efficiently . The organization of an operation of th
type as a new venture to fill a need which did not exist before involve
taking steps carefully and with full consideration . I want to do
responsible job . There has been only a little over 6 months in t
organization period, and we tried to do our study work first, preli
inary study work, and go into the out-and-out financing element lat
   Mr. HAYS. The main question, and this can be answered very briefl
is this : If you can get the money from the sources that you consider
satisfactory, there won't be anybody trying to keep you from doing
job ; will there?
   Mr. SARGENT . I don't know .
   Mr. HAYS. Nobody could, could they, if you have the funds?
   Mr. SARGENT . I think the grip of some of these large foundatio
on the American people at the present time is something that wil
astound you . I think that we have a great lack of true freedo
There are men today who are afraid for various reasons to suppor
things which they would otherwise approve of . I think you have
very serious condition and my evidence will reveal it .
   Mr. HAYS . I don't think there is any doubt that people are afra
to support things they might otherwise approve of . In fact, the
is a great noticeable lack of courage here about exploring into th
hidden crevasses of these people who are trying to promote a Na
philosophy in this country . As a matter of fact, if you ask any critic
questions when you have certain types of people in the audience, yo
are liable to get called names, as I did yesterday . I think that ce
tainly is a significant commentary on the jittery state of mind
America at this point .
   I am not going to call you Hitler, because I disagree with yo
and I don't mean to imply that you resemble him. But as mad a
I would get with you, I would never call you that, because I woul
not stoop to that kind of dirty, nasty business .
   Mr. SARGENT . My purpose, Mr . Chairman
   The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hays had completed his questioning awhil
ago, he indicated . If so, why not proceed with your testimony, M
Sargent?
   Mr. SARGENT. Very well . Our position here also is that there shou
be and has been certainly up to now a want of access to foundati
grants for the type of research to which I am referring, that the aci
If they are carrying on propaganda or trying to build or create some
order or form of social organization of their own, they will con-
sistently continue this policy. On the other hand, if they are pre-
pared now to assume their academic responsibility, these applications
will receive consideration .
  There are a few preliminary observations
  Mr. HAYS . Mr. Sargent, right there is a question . There has been
a lot of noise around Washington and Congress that this inquiry was
set up for one reason, to blackjack foundations into giving money for
what they did not want to . Do you feel there is an attempt to do that?
  Mr. SARGENT . No feeling on my part .
  Mr . HAYS. None of your testimony would be inclined that way?
  Mr. SARGENT . No. I am going to give you the facts here as they
turn up . I want to turn out to you some things that I believe are sig-
nificant in the law . Let us consider now this tax-exemption question.
The immediate one, of course, is that an exempt foundation pays no
tax on its own income, which is, of course, a substantial thing. But
that is only a fraction of the impact of these conditions . An even
greater factor of importance is the deduction rights of the people who
give the money to the foundations . The exemption privilege that we
are referring to generally here is title 26, United States Code, section
101, subsection (6), the familiar one about educational and scien-
tific organizations not conducted for profit and not carrying on propa-
ganda or otherwise attempting to influence legislation . Section 23
(0) (2) permits individual taxpayers to deduct their contributions to
groups of this type . Section 812 (d) recognizes the deductibility on
estate-tax returns . In that case the deduction right is without limit .
   Therefore, if you have a foundation which is engaging in propa-
ganda or political activity, you have in effect a front through which
people as donors can pour money, and through that thing power, into
this political action framework and themselves take on their estate-
tax returns a total deduction for the whole thing, depriving the United
States Government of all of the taxation rights on that money so given .
   Henry Ford has done it. In the case of the income tax to the extent
of the deduction allowed, the same things prevails .
   Mr. HAYS. Are you saying they put money in political campaigns?
   Mr. SARGENT . No ; I say if a foundation acts in such a slanted or dis-
criminatory fashion as to always ignore one side and advocate the
other side, it is a propaganda group by the mere facts in the case . If
you are advocating only one thing, or side, you are promoting that
side. You are not educational at all . If you are objective, you give
critical analysis facilities to the other side . The test
   Mr. HAYS . You used the term "political" in some concept.
   Mr. SARGENT . I say the purpose of some of the foundation programs,
as you will see from the evidence, is of a political nature and not in the
sense of supporting a particular candidate, but promoting a philosophy
and theory of government.
   Mr. HAYS . Promoting any political party?
   Mr . SARGENT. Using the school to build a new social order is politi-
cal propaganda .
   Mr. HAYS . Do you mean to imply they are favoring one political
party or the other?
one of the Fords . They seemed like nice people . They could co
tribute $5,000 in Ohio in my campaign, but they didn't . They gave
to the Republican Party, $25,000, as I recall .
   Mr. SARGENT. I am just talking here about this foundation .
   Mr. HAYS . They are a foundation .
   Mr. SARGENT . Another factor here also is the leverage factor foun
dations exercise on the agencies they support . In the case of a un
versity, they are always nip and tuck on a budget . A grant by
foundation of a few hundred thousand dollars can influence and guid
the entire curriculum in the institution . The leverage factor could
as much as 10 to 1 on the basis of money contributed .
   Mr. HAYS. I would like to ask you, Mr. Wolcott, in all friendlines
how is the budget of the University of Michigan derived?
   Mr. WOLCOTT. I don't know.
   Mr. HAYS . Is it State supported?
   Mr. WOLCOTT. Yes .
  Mr. HAYS . They get some outside money .
   Mr. WOLCOTT . It is an endowed university, as I understand, a
they get some money from outside.
   Mr. HAYS . Let us not blanket them all . I know the universities
Ohio which are State supported come into the State legislature, Ohi
State, Miami, Kent State, Bowling Green, and they submit thei
request in front of the proper committees, and if they can justify it
they get it. As a matter of fact, the criticism out there has been
don't say it is justified, but you hear it a lot of times-that the uni
versities can get any amount of money they want from the legislature
  Mr. SARGENT. There is a leverage factor capable of being exercised
and it may appear in some cases that it has been. That is m
statement.
  We are going into the history of this movement . I referred to 19
as the date of the creation of the Rockefeller Foundation which wa
the second of the large funds established by the late John D . Rock
feller. That had power to benefit-to promote the welfare of man
kind throughout the world, as I recall. His preceding foundati
of 1903, I think it was-1902, General Education Board-had to d
with the promotion of education in the United States . In 1916, t
Rockefeller fund, known as General Education Board, published
pamphlet by Abraham Flexner. The pamphlet was entitled, "Occa
sional Papers, No. 3, A Modern School ." It recommended change
needed in American secondary education .
  Mr. HAYS . Right there, you said you were not going to use names
and I am not criticizing you for it .
  Mr. SARGENT. As the author .
  Mr. HAYS . Would you mind telling us something about this Flexne
fellow?
  Mr. SARGENT . He wrote a book. He was identified with variou
Rockefeller benefactions, as I understand . I have not checked hi
in detail . It was not my intention to discuss Mr . Flexner, but mere
the fact that this pamphlet was written at the time and sponsored b
this board . That is the limit of my interest .
  Mr. HAYS. What is the title?
of Congress, which I have personally examined . The recommenda-
tions and substance made in that pamphlet are that tradition is too
largely controlling education, that there is too much formal work and
subjects are too remote from experience . That what is needed is a
modern concept, what is termed a modern curriculum, where there
should be less reliance on textbooks and an activity program ought to
be substituted.
  Mr. Flexner advocated the experiment . The pamphlet in question
contains the following statement of the foundation and I am quoting
that here as I take it from my notes
  The general education board does not endorse or promulgate any educational
theory, but is interested in facilitating the trial of promising educational experi-
ments under proper conditions .
  The board authorizes the publication of these papers with a request for
criticisms and suggestions and an expression of opinion as to the desirability
and feasibility of an experiment of this type .
   That is the end of the quotation .
   In the same year, namely 1916
   Mr. HAYS . Right up to there, are you expressing a criticism of what
you read
   Mr. SARGENT. No ; I simply am stating it happened. I am giving
you things that happened when they happened factually as I find
them to be. I am placing no interpretations except what the material
itself gives. If I have any other interpretations to make, I will state
it positively. If I do not state any interpretation, none in particular
is intended except what normally flows from what I am reading .
   Mr. HAYS . As I heard you read the thing, it sounded fairly logical
to me.
   Mr. SARGENT. I am giving the history of how the thing started .
This was the inception of the movement .
   Mr. HAYS . Would you mind refraining for a minute until I can
see if we have some agreement on a matter of procedure . If we can
ma be we can hurry this up.
    Discussion off the record .)
   The CHAIRMAN . The Chair might say we have just had another
friendly conference, and we have reached an understanding which
was previously announced but which the Chairman wishes to state
will be the procedure . That is for the witness to complete his testi-
mony without interruption, and then will be available for full question-
ing at the conclusion of his testimony at whatever length the com-
mittee members might feel justified in questioning .
  Mr. HAYS . Let me say, Mr . Chairman, at that point that was my
suggestion and I make it for a number of reasons, the main one of
which is, Mr . Sargent, that I hope you won't feel that I have belabored
this point too much, but it is very difficult to sit up here and get the
full implication of everything that you may read without having
anything to follow to check back and forth on . Maybe we are spoiled,
but we have become accustomed to that at committee hearings . The
only reason I have been interrupting you is to .try to clear up in my
own mind and perhaps in the record some of the things that seemed
to be inferences that maybe you did not mean to be inferences as you
now say in the last one you didn't mean to infer . You are putting
interruption I make, please understand it, although I may disagre
with you, I am not antagonistic to you. You have a right to you
point of view . We will try to let you finish and then when we get th
record that will be the same as if you prepared one in advance an
submitted to us, which might have expedited . Then we will com
back and examine you on the record .
   Mr . SARGENT. I think that is perfectly all right . I think that i
the perfect way to do it .
   Mr. HAYS . The chairman and the ranking minority member agree
that the minority may have as much time as the conscience dictates,
and I may make clear that the minority has no conscience, and ther
will be no limitation on time .
   The CHAIRMAN . There is no disagreement on that procedure. Th
chairman recalls that was the procedure which he announced yester-
day when the witness first appeared, and there has been no other dis
position . But I am very glad to have a clarification of it, and w
will proceed accordingly .
   You may proceed.
   Mr. SARGENT. In regard to the subject of names, I will say thi
again, and I will adhere to this strictly . Naturally, I will give th
name of the author of the publication, because that is one of the fact
surrounding it. It is not my intention in mentioning any names t
infer anything else than the context itself may indicate . I am givin
the content of certain things, and that will be read by excerpts in cer
tain places, and I will summarize the general result in others, but the
represent my attempt to fairly indicate what is in the book, if I don'
read it in full .
   Mr. HAYS . I have a question right there . Yesterday you indicate
very definitely that you thought somebody or another, I forget who
was now, was subversive because he said he belonged to 56 Commu
nist-front organizations or designated organizations . Would it b
asking too much to say that we can assume thatt unless you otherwis
designate that anybody you mention is not subversive just becaus
you mention it, and if you think they are you will say so?
   Mr. SARGENT. I think that is quite a burden . I haven't taken th
trouble, Mr . Hays, to go through the names and affiliations . of all t
people I mentioned. The committee staff may find a tie-in or connec
tion	
   Mr. HAYS . What I am trying to say is that just because you mentio
them, nobody should assume that they are left wingers or subversive
   Mr. SARGENT. You should not assume that they are all right becaus
I mention them, or you should not assume that they are all wrong
I make no statement one way or another . If I find something perti
nent, I will mention it .
   Mr. HAYS. If you find someone that belonged to a lot of front organ
izations, you will be sure to get that in .
   Mr. SARGENT. I have not had the time to do that detail on all thes
 people . I will give you a few from time to time that I think are pert
nent: I have read the pamphlet here published by general educatio
board by Flexner . The same year, 1916, the department of educa
tional research was established at Teachers College, at Columbi
in New York City . The details on that experimental school which was
under the guidance or auspices of, as I understand, the Teachers Col-
lege . is set forth in a pamphlet which is entitled "Intro-
ducing Teachers College ." That is also a Library of Congress
publication.
  I have taken some quotations in that pamphlet, pages 32 and 33,
which I am reading, as follows
  A few years later (meaning after the opening of the Teachers College)
Teachers College by opening the Lincoln School kindled the fire which helped
to spread progressive education . The school opened in September 1917, at 646
Park Avenue, with Dr . Otis W . Caldwell as director. It was established as one
phase of the large-scale Teachers College program to intensify scientific educa-
tional research . A department of educational research had been organized at the
college during the preceding year . About the same time Dr . Abraham Flexner
of the general education board published a profound paper on the need for a
modern school to test the possibility of a secondary school better adapted to
American needs in which mathematics, modern languages, natural and social
sciences, rather than the discipline of ancient languages and formal studies,
would form the basis of a cultural education . It was introduced by Dr . Flexner's
thinking and supported by the general education board . The college developed
plans for this experimental school . In 1922 the 123d Street Building was
opened . Dr . Caldwell relinquished the directorship in 1917 to head the newly
established Lincoln Institution School of Experimentation and was succeeded
by Dr . Jesse Newlon, former superintendent of the Denver, Colo ., Public Schools .
  To this rapidly expanding center of learning students began to come from
abroad as well as from all parts of this country . It was Mr. John D. Rockefeller,
Jr., who made it possible for Teachers College to attack this problem squarely .
Again he showed his interest in the work of the college by making available
through the International Education Board a subsidy of $100,000 a year for 10
years to be used to establish and maintain the International Institute of Teachers
College.
  In February 1923, Dr . Paul Monroe, who had been with the college since 1897,
was appointed director of the institute . Dr. George S. Counts was made
associate director a few years later .
  That is the end of that item .
  The year 1917, as you will recall, was the year in which the Bolshevik
Revolution succeeded and took over the Government of Soviet Russia,
and the Kerensky government was established .
  Mr. HAYS. What is the significance of that?
  Mr. SARGENT. The significance of that is that in 1920 the New York
Legislature prepared the Lusk committee report concerning revolu-
tionary activity, pointing out the danger of such conditions in our
country, and that the condition they found was part of the atmosphere
surrounding the period in which this development occurred, and may
have had some influence upon it, as I think it did, from the subsequent
actions in that school .
  Mr. HAYS . Did I understand you to say that this committee report
said that there was revolution in the air here in 1917?
  Mr. .SARGENT . I can't hear you .
  Mr. HAYS . Do I understand you to say that this Lusk committee
report indicated that there was revolution in the air here in 1917?
  Mr. SARGENT. Yes, Sir. That the conditions around New York City
in particular was considered to be quite serious, and there were a great
many intellectuals of that period who had very strong sympathies
toward the revolutionary movement in Russia at that time . It is a
long detailed report, Mr . Hays, and a very important document. It
was published in 1920 by a committee of the New York Legislature .
      49720-54-pt. 1-17
danger of a revolution then .
   Mr. SARGENT . Among the intellectual elite there was very definite
such a condition during this period which is part of the history of it
   Mr. HAYS . You keep using the term "among the intellectuals" a
"among the intellectual elite" and maybe I am reading something in
it that is not there, but I seem to get a sort of nasty connotation . Y
are not an intellectual?
   Mr. SARGENT . I am talking about the type of intellectual that pr
motes this thing. They are not true intellectuals at all . They a
bigotists . They stand for a certain thing and do not tolerate or list
to the views of anybody else . They are the people historically w
have promoted revolutions . The literature is voluminous on th
Prof. Ludwig von Mises of New York University points out speci
cally that socialism is not a revolt of the people . It is a program ins
gated by a special type of intellectuals that form themselves into
clique and bore from within and operate that way . That is the w
these things happen . It is not a people's movement at all. It is
capitalizing on the people's emotions and sympathies and skillful
directing those sympathies toward a point these people wish to reac
   Mr. AYS . Do all intellectuals gravitate toward that?
   Mr. SARGENT . Of course not.
   Mr. HAYS. There are some good ones?
   Mr. SARGENT. I think Clarence Manion is an excellent one .
   Mr. HAYS . Is he an intellectual?
   Mr. SARGENT . I think he is a true intellectual .
   Mr. HAYS . There is also that connotation . There are all, shades
opinion .
   Mr. SARGENT. I put it in quotes.
   Mr. HAYS . That is when you begin to get people reading meanin
into it, because they think you mean them to read a meaning into i
because it is in quotes, or it would not be in quotes . I want you
define "egg head" before we finish this . You defined that yesterday
   Mr. SARGENT . I think we will get down to that . If you want a qu
picture of this revolt of the so-called intellectual group during th
 period, you will find that in Frederick Lewis Allen's book, Only Ye
 terday, discussion at page 228 . He describes the atmosphere of, t
period in very clear terms .
   In 1920, Prof . Harold Rugg began introducing pamphlets of his
 this Lincoln Experimental School operated under the auspices
 Columbia University .
   Mr. HAYS. By Rockefeller money, is that right?
   Mr. SARGENT . I don't know whether he physically printed the
 pamphlets with Rockefeller money or not .
   Mr. HAYS . You say they gave him $100,000 a year to run the scho
   Mr. SARGENT . Yes ; but I didn't say that Rockefeller paid for t
 specific printing of the pamphlets . I think what I did say was th
 Rockefeller money supported the school and a substantial amount
 money went into it .
   Mr. HAYS . Did I understand you to say Rockefeller himself g
 that money?
authority on that is Columbia's own pamphlet entitled, "Introducing
Teachers College ."
   It says here, as I was reading, it was Mr . John D . Rockefeller, Jr .,
who made it possible for Teachers College to attack the problem . The
money, it says here, was a subsidy of $100,000 a year for 10 years
through International-wait a minute-through International Edu-
cation Board . That is one of the Rockefeller funds .
   Mr. HAYS . Apparently from the way you read it, Mr. John D .
Rockefeller, Jr., had something personal to do with it.
  Mr. SARGENT . That is what Teachers College says . I didn't say it .
I am reading what Teachers College said about their own operation ..
That is their own statement which I am reading to you literally . The ;
second sentence would seem to indicate that their International Edu-
cation Board did . In any event, it had the support through some
Rockefeller operation of some type . These pamphlets which Prof .
Harold Rugg developed at the Lincoln Experimental School subse-
quently became-were developed into the so-called Rugg social science
textbook series .
   One of the original pamphlets was called, Building a Science of
Society for the Schools .
   At this point it is a little bit out of the chronology but in the interest
of tying things together all at one point, perhaps I better give you
something about what these Rugg social science textbooks turned out
to be.
   The period during the 1920's until about 1930 was the development
period, and then they finally came out in a series of books for the
high-school level as I recall . Those books became very controversial
nationally, and Professor Rugg, in one of his own statements in a
magazine article, claimed as I recall that about 5 million of them had
been distributed and put in the American public schools . There was
a controversy in the San Francisco City Board of Education regard-
ing these texts arising out of some citizens protest against the material,
and the superintendent's recommendation that the books be taken out.
        .
   Mr. HAYS Were you one of the citizens who protested?
   Mr . SARGENT. No, sir, I was not.
   Mr. HAYS . Weren't you mixed up in that fight?
   Mr. SARGENT . I was requested to come in and give evidence which
I had, but I did not initiate the proceeding . I did come in and I
spoke in opposition to the books, having read them and I protested the
treatment given the Constitution of the United States in particular,
and constitutional history .
   This is a copy of an official report of the San Francisco Board of
Education. The controversy began, as I remember, about May or
June of 1952, when there were public hearings . The board decided
to appoint a panel of experts, nearly all men of education, to read the
books themselves and render a report .
   The members of that committte to study the books and report back
were Monroe Deutsch, who was then at the University of California,
provost, I think, at the university ; Glenn E . Hoover, of Mills College,
a college for women in the San Francisco area ; John L. Horn, I don't
recall his academic contact at the time ; Lloyd Luckmann, I think he
 fessor of history at Stanford University ; and Harold R . McKinn
 was a member of the San Francisco bar .
    Mr. HAYS . Mr. Sargent, did you prepare a bill of grievances rel
 tive to these textbooks you are talking about V
    Mr. SARGENT. Not with relation to the Rugg books, no . I prepar
 that very much later . I did prepare it, yes, and it was filed wi
 Congress . I have a copy here . It wass filed with Congress about 19
 as I remember . Yes, April 1949 is the notary date on the document
     Mr. HAYS. It was filed with the Senate Labor and Welfare Co
 mittee .
     Mr. SARGENT. It was originally delivered to the Senate Judici
 Committee and the House Un-American Activities Committee .
..think Senator McCarran offered a resolution to take up the investi
 tion and the parliamentarian referred it to the House Committ
 on Labor and Welfare . It is the Thomas committee . The Thom
 committee did nothing about it .
     Mr. HAYS . Let me say this to keep the record straight . If Sen
 tor McCarran offered a resolution, it could not possibly be referr
  to a House committee .
     Mr. SARGENT . I didn't mean to say the House committee . I me
  the Senate ,committee.
     Mr. HAYS . You said the House committee .
     Mr . SARGENT . It was inadvertence on my part . 'The parliam
  tarian of the Senate ruled that it concerned education, more strict
  than constitutional government and so on, and therefore it belong
  in the Thomas committee. Senator Thomas of Utah was in the S
  ate at the time .
     Mr. HAYS . It has laid there rather dusty ever since.
     Mr. SARGENT. He sat on it and did nothing about it .
     Mr. HAYS . It could not get dusty if he sat on it.
     Mr. SARGENT. All right. In any event that document was pr
  pared years later than this matter to which I refer. I was read
  from the San Francisco report . I gave the names of the signers
     Mr. HAYS . Let me ask you another question while we are talk
  about this before we get too far away from it . Did you try to
  the House Un-American Activities to go into this?
     Mr. SARGENT. I discussed it with them .
     Mr. HAYS. They did not want to do it?
     Mr. SARGENT . They wanted to stick with the Communist side
  the case, yes . They said they wanted to place emphasis on' that fi
     Mr. HAYS. You say you suggested that they take it up but t
  didn't do anything about it . I couldn't hear your answer .
     Mr. SARGENT. As a matter of fact, they did do something . T
  started with it . Mr . Wood of Georgia was chairman of the comm
  tee at the time and he did-I think they did send out some questi
  naires to a few colleges, but they went no further than that .
     Mr. HAYS . Did you offer to testify before them?
     Mr. SARGENT . I don't recall I was ever asked . It never came
  that point, because there was no resolution offered . The Ho
  Un-American Activities Committee needs no resolution, I believe
      Mr. HAYS . What I am driving at, and I will be very frank ab
   it, is this : It seems to me you have sort of been itching to get
   stuff in print for a long time, and you were not able to get anyb
on it, and the other never took it up, and we are going to let you say
it here .
    Mr. SARGENT. I have not been running around in any such fashion .
It is a matter of public importance and I think I am entitled to pre-
sent it .
    Mr . HAYS . I don't mean to imply that you were running around,
but the record shows by your testimony that you tried to get two dif-
 ferent committees to take it up, and they didn't.
    Mr . SARGENT . The committees considered the matter and there was
 some preliminary discussion . For policy reasons they decided not to
 go forward with it at that time .
    Mr. HAYS. Okay.
    Mr. SARGENT . At that time, period .
    Mr . HAYS. Or any subsequent time since.
    Mr. SARGENT . I am not in a position to state what various com-
mittees may or may not want to do . I am here for the purpose of
presenting this matter now . This report, and I will read it in full, is
 dated March 30, 1943 . It is the unanimous report bearing the signa-
 tures of all the gentlemen I have named. The chairman of the com-
 mittee was Dr . Monroe E . Deutsch of the University of California .
 It is addressed to Mr . Harry I. Christie, president of the San Francisco
 Board of Education at the city hall, San Francisco .
   DEAR MR . CunisriE : The committee set up by action of the San Francisco Board
of Education to submit a report as to whether or not the Rugg books should be
continued as basic textbooks in the junior high schools of the San Francisco
Unified School District, begs leave to submit the following report . It would
preface its statement of findings with certain preliminary remarks .
   The report herewith presented is unanimously approved by all members of
 the committee ; certain members, however, are submitting statements giving
 supplementary reasons for joining in the recommendations .
   Moreover, before submitting its statements the committee wishes to make
this declaration ; it is most unfortunate that the controversy over these books
has become so bitter that an evaluation of the content and contribution of the
 books has been frequently confused with an evaluation of the character and
motives of the persons involved . We have confined our attention to the books .
    The committee desires to make clear its own conception of the function it
has been asked to perform . Obviously we are not acting as an administrative
board ; nor are we acting as a group of teachers choosing a textbook or con-
structing a curriculum . We have been asked to function as a committee in the
field of education, and although we have been nominated by six institutions
of higher learning, we sign as individuals, as we have conferred as a group of
individuals and were asked to give our considered opinion after careful study .
One question has concerned us-and upon this we give our answer . Do the books
under our examination provide, in accord with a sound and satisfactory concep-
tion of education, a fair and balanced presentation of the facts of our past and
our present in such a way as to be desirable as required textbooks for students
of the junior high school age in the San Francisco schools? The committee finds
that in form and style the books are attractive and interesting, and we believe
that this is ample explanation of their popularity with students and teachers
and many others who have read them. The contemporary world is seen as
having no boundaries of interest and the unity of the world is emphasized . We
agree with these objectives so effectively stated .
   But we question the concept of education on which these textbooks are founded .
Of course we agree as to the vital importance of our democracy-in the present
as in the past, and in the future, but it does not follow that belief in democracy
means acceptance of a method of education which directs the main attention of
young students, usually between 12 and 15 years of age, to a discussion of ques-
tions and seeing all sides rather than the study of geography and history and
  The unsound basis in teaching is revealed in the overemphasis upon the futu
and upon change rather than the fact of growth and development as a continuou
process in all times . The weight of instruction is placed not upon achiev
ments and accomplishments but upon aspirations and hopes . This concept
teaching is revealed in repeated assertions of the need of rebuilding and recr
ating. Such an approach is not in accord with the guiding purpose of gener
education which is to furnish information as a reservoir of fact and to provi
basis for growth and development . The pedagogical principles upon which the
books are built disregard the fundamental fact that foundations of basic know
edge and skills must be laid before pupils are given the impression they a
ready to deal with contemporary problems .
  Believing as we do that one of the great objectives of education of you
people is the development of a desire to participate in a democracy, we find th
these books are unsatisfactory in not providing a conviction of the need of lon
study and careful thought before arriving at decisions and presuming to ta
action . These books are built upon the assumption that it is one of the function
of the school, indeed it appears at times to be the chief function, to plan in t
classroom, yes, even in the junior high schools, the future of society. Fr
this view we emphatically dissent. Moreover, the books contain a constant e
phasis on our national defects . Certainly we should think it a great mistake
picture our Nation as perfect or flawless either in its past or its present, but it
our conviction that these books give a decidedly distorted impression throu
overstressing weaknesses and injustices . They therefore tend to weaken t
student's love for his country, respect for its past, and confidence in its futur
Accordingly, to answer the question submitted to us by the board of education,
unanimously recommend that the Rugg books should not be continued as basi
textbooks in the San Francisco junior high schools . We likewise recommend th
the books to be substituted for them be chosen by the established procedure a
cording to which a committee of teachers submits recommendations as to tex
books . We approve of this procedure in the San Francisco schools and favor it
continuance . We feel, however, that the teachers in the schools should call upo
scholarly experts in the particular field of study in which textbooks are to
selected for an appraisal of the books from the standpoint of accuracy and pe
spective.
   It is our earnest hope that the choice of textbooks may always be made her
after through the proper educational procedure . Their selection is certainly
matter to be determined by those who are devoting their lives to education .
   There was a supplemental statement here by Glenn E. Hoover
follows
   The controversy over the Rugg books arose primarily because they were d
nounced as subversive. This charge was made, not by the scholars and teache
who use them, but by individuals and organizations whose normal activities a
quite outside of the field of public education ; that charge is a serious one for
reflects not only on Professor Rugg, but also on the great university with whic
he is connected, and the teachers and administrators in the public schools wher
 these books have been used for so many years.
   The CHAIRMAN . Mr . Sargent, if you have reached the point, so
of the members wish to be on the floor for the convening of the Hou
in connection with the preliminary proceedings of the House, so
would be necessary for us to recess at this time .
   Mr . SARGENT . May I read one paragraph and finish this stateme
 and then stop? It will take a moment.
   The CHAIRMAN . Yes.
    Mr. SARGENT (reading)
   I feel it my duty to report the charge that the Rugg books are subversive,
 the accepted sense of the word, is, in my opinion, completely without foundati
 Although I found what seems to me to be serious defects in them, I am gl
 to bear witness to the high patriotism of their author and the teachers w
 without complaint have used them for so long . The patrons of the schools whi
 have adopted these books have the right to be assured on that point .
       Respectfully,
                                                               GLENN E . HOOVER



       0
despite the fact that you say you could not prepare a statement for the
committee, that you have been reading for about 25 minutes from a
prepared statement.
  Mr. SARGENT. From a document, sir .
  The CHAIRMAN. The committee will reconvene at 2 o'clock, if that
is agreeable, and then we will run as the business on the floor per-
mits us to run .
   (Thereupon, at 11 : 55 a . m ., a recess was taken until 2 p. m . the
same day .)
                             AFTERNOON SESSION

   (The hearing was resumed at 2 p . in .)
  The CHAIRMAN . The committee will come to order, and you may
proceed, Mr. Sargent.
  Mr. SARGENT. I understand the mikes are not on . I will try to talk
a little louder, so that you can hear me .
  The CHAIRMAN . You may go ahead.
  Mr . SARGENT . At the hour of adjournment, I was discussing the San
Francisco report on the Rugg social science text books . I read the
majority report . I also read a separate statement by Mr. Glenn E .
Hoover . There is a concurring statement by Harold R . McKinnon,
of San Francisco . I will not read it at length . It is long I will read
certain excerpts which I think indicate the nature of his thinking
and his additional reasons for disapproving the books, because I
think those reasons are pertinent to matters contained in your staff
report.
   These are some of the things which Mr . McKinnon said in con-
curring in this finding
   What Professor Rugg is trying to do is to achieve a social reconstruction
 through education . The end in view is a new social order in which all the
aspects of human relationships, including the political and economic, are to
be refashioned and rebuilt . The means by which this end is to be accomplished
is education .
  In presenting these problems, the author is far from neutral .
  He discusses natural law and says
   The lack of an underlying assumption of moral law which is inherent in
human    nature and which _is the norm of good conduct, of happiness, and of
socially desirable traits, is evident throughout the texts . Professor Rugg, of
course, rejects such an idea of law .
  Another comment
   Nothing is more insistent in the books than the idea of change . From the
habit of denying facts and fixed realities, Professor Rugg proceeds to the notion
of trial and error in all human affairs . One is never sure one is ,right . Since
everything changes, there is nothing upon which one can build with perma-
nence . Experiment is the rule in social affairs as well as in physical science-
experiment in government, in education, in economics, and in family life .
  Mr . McKinnon refers to the antireligious bias in the books and says
  Throughout the books runs an antireligious bias . In some instances, this
takes the form of caricaturing religion ; for example, by saying "medieval
Europeans found life so hard and so unhappy that most of them eagerly turned
their thoughts to a dream of heaven ."
itinued in the junior high schools of San Francisco? I think clearly th
should not. I say this with the realization that such a conclusion must not
sasserted except for reasons that are grave and fundamental . No mere inc
dental error and no characteristic which does not sink deeply into the fund
mentals of human nature would suffice for such an adverse recommendatio
  He goes on to say
  America, in spite of all its faults, has achieved something in the history
social and political life which has borne rich fruit and which may bear rich
provided we do not lose the thread . But this is the condition : provided
do not lose the thread .
  What is that thread? It is the concept upon which our country was founde
that man is a rational being who possesses rights and duties,
  Mr . McKinnon quotes the Declaration of Independence, particu
larly the clause about the fact that men are endowed by their Creato
with unalienable rights and it is the Government's duty to sustai
them.
  He then says
  The conflicts between Professor Rugg's philosophy and these principles
the Declaration are irreconcilable. Men are created equal only if they a
spiritual beings . It is in their spiritual, moral nature that their equality alo
can be found .
  Finally, he says
  It is true that social conditions and circumstances change . The point is th
the principles themselves do not change, for they are inherent in the nature
man, a nature which does not change . Because Professor Rugg's teachings a
contrary to this notion * * * I am compelled to join in the recommendation th
his books be discontinued . In placing my recommendation on this ground, I
not imply that I am at variance with my colleagues on the other grounds whi
they assert . On the contrary, I am in general agreement with them as to thos
grounds. But I wish to stress the points I have made, because I consider the
ultimate and fundamental .
  Now, various charges were made before the San Francisco Cit
Board of Education before the rendition of that report . The boar
adopted the findings of its committee of experts, and the books wer
eliminated.
  I have here a pamphlet used in the presentation before the boar
which summarizes the nature of the objections lodged before the boar
by those protesting . I do not intend to read this at length, but I wil
merely give you some of the major contentions made by those whos
position was sustained in this proceeding.
  Complaint was made of the undermining process involved here b
implanting a continual expectancy of change in the minds of student
of immature age in schools ; of the fact that the American way of lif
has been portrayed as a failure ; of the disparaging of the Unite
States Constitution and the motives of the men who framed it .
  Mr. HAys . What are you reading from now?
  Mr. SARGENT . From a pamphlet here entitled "Undermining Ou
Republic," prepared by the Guardians of American Education, Inc
51 East 42d Street, New York City .
  These pamphlets were delivered to the members of the board o
education and considered by them in connection with their decision
appoint a committee and later to rule upon the books .
  Mr . HAys . Well, now, if you are going to cite this organization a
an authority, I think it would be only fair that we know a little bi
 appointed organization, I take it from the title .
    Mr. SARGENT. Yes . I am merely using it, Mr . Hays, for the purpose
 ,of enumerating the specific grounds made at that hearing to the board,
 the kind of protests that were made . I am not offering the pamphlet
  in detail.
    Mr. HAYS . Of course, not being an attorney, I am at somewhat of a
 -disadvantage here, but I have always understood that when you offered
  anything in evidence, in order for it to have much weight it had to have
 some standing .
    I do not know anything about that pamphlet, but it seems to me up
 to now it would not have very much weight, unless you can give it some
  weight.
    Mr. SARGENT . T can tell you what the organization is . It is founded
 ,by Colonel Rudd of New York City, who, as a citizen, discovered the
  propaganda in these social science textbooks. One is "Rugg" and the
  other is "Rudd ." The man who protested the books is Mr . Rudd, and
 the other is like rug on the floor .
    This pamphlet contains a detailed study of the material . I am
 merely using it for my convenience in enumerating the kinds of objec-
 tions that were made here to the books .
    Mr. HAYS . When we get around to some of these things, this may
 not seem to have very much weight, but on the other hand it is an
 example of what I mean . Maybe you did not attend, but there was a
 meeting, and you perhaps know about it, of the Sons of the American
 Revolution, in Cincinnati in 1953 . Right?
    Mr. SARGENT. You mean the national congress? I was not there .
    Mr. HAYS . Did they have a congress in 1953?
    Mr SARGENT Yes they have one every year That year, I think
 it was in Cincinnati . I was not present .
    Mr. HAYS . Is your foundation Patriotic Education, Inc .?
    Mr. SARGENT. No, sir, no connection with it.
    Mr . HAYS . Do you know anything about that organization?
    Mr. SARGENT. I know some members of the organization created
 such a corporation . I am not a member of it and have nothing to do
 with its work .
    Mr. HAYS . Does it have any standing at all?
    Mr . SARGENT. What do you mean?
    Mr.' HAYS . I mean is it a reliable organization?
    Mr . SARGENT. As far as I know. I know very little about it, except
that such an organization was established .
    Mr. HAYS . What we are trying to get at : Would it be the kind of
 -an organization you bring in here and cite as saying so and so and
,ex ect the committee to give it weight?
      r. SARGENT . They have no publications which the committee could
 receive here, so far as I know. It is in no way involved in this present
,matter.
    Mr. HAYS . They had a publication in Cincinnati in which they had
 a picture of Bishop Oxnam and a hammer and sickle, denouncing him
 :and calling him Communist . I just wonder if that is the kind of or-
 ganization cited . I am a little concerned .
    Mr. SARGENT . We are just talking about the organization known as
 Guardians of American Education, Inc ., here, and it has done nothing
   Mr. HAYS . What qualifications does Mr . Rudd have?
   Mr. SARGENT. He has made a very intensive study of the propa
ganda and history of this movement . He was requested by the Senat
Internal Security Committee to testify before them as an expert o
some educational matters .
   Mr. HAYS. That is interesting . How do you get to be an expert o
these things?
   Mr. SARGENT. I wouldn't know. The gentlemen here presumed
had something to tell them, and I presume I am an expert .
   Mr. HAYS . I was thinking of Mr . Rudd. What about him?
   Mr. SARGENT . He has studied this subject for years and knows th
literature and was of great assistance to me in becoming acquainte
with it. I think if you read this book you will discover that he ha
a great deal of basic knowledge . This pamphlet shows that he studie
the history of the subversive movement as it applies particularly t
these books . But I am using this only in an enumeration of th
grounds made there, and this pamphlet was delivered to the San Fran
cisco Board of Education in connection with its deliberations . I ga
them these pamphlets . I happened to have them at the time .
   I know of no derogatory fact about the Guardians of America
Education, Inc ., at any time since I have been acquainted with thei
work, commencing about 1942, and running down to the present tim
In my             they are entirely reliable .
   Mr. WAYS . I was not meaning to imply that there was anythin
        WAYS
derogatory . I am trying to get the idea across that I don't know any
thing about them, and I just wonder how they get in here .
   Mr . SARGENT . They have been an active organization. Their mai
project is opposing the use of these books in the schools which th
San Francisco Board of Education found unfit and condemne
That has been their major activity, so far as I know .
   Mr. HAYS . Did any other school board anywhere condemn thes
books?
   Mr. SARGENT . I think they have been condemned in many places
yes .
   Mr. HAYS . Do you know of any specifically?
   Mr. SARGENT. I am not acquainted with all the record. I can fi
out . I know they have been protested all over the country . I don
have a documentation on where and how many . They were elimi
nated throughout the State of California, as a result of this finding o
the San Francisco board . There is a long record of protest ouihos
books.
   Another exception taken to these books was the technique of em
ploying a school system as an agency to build a new social order i
 a classroom. They cited Professor Rugg's intent to use the school
 for his particular type of propaganda .
   There are many other comments here, but that was the substan
 of it, and the decision I have given you .
   Now, one of the next significant documents in tracing this matte
 is a pamphlet known as Dare the School Build a New Social Order
 I have here a typewritten copy of that document . It is a book whi
 is out of print . The Library of Congress has an original . My type
this time and may still be a professor of education at Teachers College
in Columbia University, New York City .
  The pamphlet was published-the copyright notice is 1932-by
John Day Co ., New York .
  The foreword to the pamphlet, signed by George S . Counts, bears
the date April 15, 1932, and says that the pamphlet is based upon
three papers read at national educational meetings in February of
that year, namely, the year 1932 ; that one was read before the Pro-
gressive Education Association in Baltimore, a second before a
Division of the Department of Superintendents in Washington, and
a third before the National Council of Education, also in Washington.
  It says the titles of these pamphlets were as follows : "Dare Pro-
gressive Education be Progressive?" ; "Education Through Indoctri-
nation" ; and "Freedom, Culture, Social Planning, and Leadership ."
  It states that because of the many requests received for these papers,
they have now been combined, and issued in pamphlet form. And
this pamphlet I have here is the composite of those particular papers,
apparently .
  Mr. HAYS . They have a great deal of interest, you said?
  Mr. SARGENT . Profound interest ; yes .
  Mr. HAYS . So much of an influence that it is now in print?
  Mr. SARGENT. No, it had an influence at the time it was picked up .
And you look through the writings of the various educational associa-
tions and you find this philosophy planted at that time has taken hold.
  Mr. HAYS . Is there anything else wrong with Dr . Counts' philos-
ophy? He wrote a lot of books . Is that the only one you find fault
with?
  Mr. SARGENT. I think there are a good many that you can question,
and I am going to refer to some of those in his activities as I go
along . I am giving you considerable detail on Professor Counts . He
is the man responsible probably more than any other for subverting
the public school system, his philosophy, his political activities . That
is direct] y sustained by his writings, which I will give to you .
  Now, this pamphlet here includes the following statements :
  We are convinced that education is the one unfailing remedy for every ill
to which man is subject, whether it be vice, crime, war, poverty, riches, injustice,
racketeering, political corruption, race hatred, class conflict, or just plain ordi-
nary sin . We even speak glibly and often about the general reconstruction of
society through the school . We cling to this faith in spite of the fact that the
very period in which our troubles have multiplied so rapidly has witnessed
an unprecedented expansion in organized education .
  He says
  If an educational movement or any other movement calls itself progressive,
It must have orientation . It must possess direction . The word itself implies
moving forward, and moving forward can have little meaning in the absence
of clearly defined purposes.
  He says
  The weakness of progressive education thus lies in the fact that it has
elaborated no theory of social welfare unless it be that of anarchy or extreme
individualism.
itself from the influence of this class-
namely, the conservative class-
facing squarely every social issue, coming to grips with life in all of its sta
reality, establish an organic relation with the community * * * fashion a co
pelling and challenging vision of human destiny, and become less frighten
than it is today of the bogies of imposition and indoctrination . This brings
to the most crucial question in education ; the question of the nature and exte
of the influence which the school should exercise over the development of t
child .
  He says among other things
  It is a fallacy that the school shall be impartial in its emphasis and that
bias should be given to instruction .
  He says
  My thesis is that complete impartiality is utterly impossible .
   Mr. HAYS . Do you disagree with that?
   Mr. SARGENT. With that?
  Mr. HAYS . Yes .
   Mr. SARGENT. No, I think at the proper grade level it is not impo
sible at all. I think at the lower grade level it is your duty to tea
positive emphasis in support of established principles in our Con
stitution .
   Mr. HAYS . The only difference between this fellow and you is th
you want to teach your principle and he wants to teach his .
   Mr. SARGENT. No, I want to teach the law of the United States .
   The law of the United States is the Declaration of Independence
the statute of July 4, 1776, and the Constitution, and the fundamenta
upon which our country is based .
   Mr. HAYS. Now, I can make a better demagogic speech about t
Declaration of Independence than you can, and I will bet you on i
   Mr. SARGENT. That is not a demagogic speech. That is in t
Declaration.
   Mr. HAYS . And we all revere the Declaration of Independence, a
let's just admit that and admit that we do . But you know something
When you teach the Declaration of Independence, it is a limited doc
ment, and you can't spend a 12-year curriculum on it . You have
teach a little arithmetic and some reading. I gather that you wa
to dismiss social science from the curriculum, and maybe we cou
agree to do that . But you cannot subvert historical facts .
   I am not expert, and I want that in the record, but I will bet y
that I know more about teaching than you do . And you sit here a
tell us what has happened and what hasn't happened and what y
want to happen, and you disagree with this fellow and that fello
   Well, you have got that privilege, but that does not make them b
people just because you disagree with them .
   Mr. SARGENT . Harold Rugg has distorted his historical facts .
   Mr. HAYS . We are talking about George Counts .
   Mr. SARGENT . I would like to talk about George Counts, and
would like to go on with it .
   Mr. HAYS . Is he still living?
   Mr. SARGENT . I don't know. I presume so . I think he is . He m
still be at Columbia . I don't know .
present when you do .
  He goes on to state in his pamphlet that-
  Professor Dewey, in the book referred to, Democracy and Education, says,
"The school should provide a purified environment for the child," with this view
I would certainly agree . Probably no person reared in our society would favor
the study of pornography in the schools .
  Then he says :
  I am sure, however, this means stacking the cards in favor of the particular
system of value which we may happen to possess .
   Then he goes on here further . He says
  Progressive education wishes to build a new world but refuses to be held
accountable for the kind of world it builds .
  He says
  In my judgment the school should know what it is doing insofar as it is
humanly possible and accept responsibility for its acts .
  There was further agitation by Professor Counts at about this
period, resulting in the issuance of a pamphlet known as A Call to
the Teachers of the Nation that was issued in 1933 by a committee of
the Progressive Education Association, of which George S . Counts
was the chairman . It was published by John .Day Co. of New York.
The committee consisted of George S . Counts, chairman, Merle E.
Curt, John S . Gambs, Sidney Hook, Jesse H . Newlan, Willard W.
Beatty, Charles L . S . Easton, Goodwin Watson, and Frederick
Redefer .
  I have here a quotation from that pamphlet-it is in the Library of
Congress-which contains the net conclusion in this particular report.
  It says-and I quote
   The progressive-minded teachers of the country must unite in a powerful
organization militantly devoted to the building of a better social order * ' * * .
In the defense of its members against the ignorance of the masses and the malev-
olence of the privileged, such an organization would have to be equipped with the
material resources, the talent, the legal talent, and the trained intelligence to
wage successful war in the press, the courts, and the legislative chambers of
the Nation . To serve the teaching profession in this way should be one of the
major purposes of the Progressive Education Association .
   Gentlemen, if that is not lobbying, I do not understand the meaning
of that : term .
  Mrs . PFOST. Mr. Sargent, are these books and accounts that you are
giving us material that has been paid for by the foundations through
donations?
  Mr. SARGENT . I have no idea . They represent the philosophy of
these people, and I am connecting this up by showing that the people
who did it had contact with institutions enjoying foundation support.
  Mr. HAYS . You are not connecting anything up . Let me say to
you that this investigation has to do with foundations .
  Now, you can disagree with Mr . Counts' philosophy or you can not
disagree with it . I do not care whether you do or do not . I do not
know enough about it to take a position . So it is lobbying. If I accept
your assertion there at face value, is there anything wrong with this
fellow lobbying? What are you doing? What have you been doing?
  You have been doing a lot of lobbying over the years .
   Mr. HAYS . You are not here at my request .
  Mr. SARGENT . I am sorry if I am unwelcome .
   Mr. HAYS . You are not unwelcome . Right here would be a goo
place for this, Mr. Chairman . I had a phone call last night, just t
show you what this hearing is attracting,, from somebody, som
woman . She said, "I am doing a sequel to the Kinsey report, and
was wondering if I couldn't come before your committee ."
   I said, "You are doing a sequel to the Kinsey report?"
   She said, "Well, it wouldn't be named as that, but that is what i
would really be . And had I been able to have gotten out mine i
the beginning, the Kinsey report would have been practically useless
   Now, I could go ahead and read this, but that gives you an indica
tion of the kind of people, I guess she wants to come in and testif
She went on to say, ` I read in your hearing that Carnegie gave Kinse
some money. Do you think I could get some?" She said Mr . Dod
said that, and I said, "Mr . Dodd is closer to Carnegie than I am . Wh
don't you call him . I will be glad to give you his phone number
  That is how I had to get rid of her . I just offer that as an indicatio
bf what we can get into here and maybe what are are already into .
  Mr. WORMSER. Mr. Chairman, I think for Mrs . Pfost's benefit
might note that the Progressive Education Association is a tax-fre
organization, and it in turn has received very substantial grants fro
other foundations . That will come out later .
  Mr. HAYS . But, Mr. Wormser, as I get the connection here, all
see in connection with that here is that Dr . Counts said something fav
orable about it . But the witness himself says that he has no evidenc
that the foundations gave any money to publish this pamphlet . An
certainly Dr. Counts or Dr. Anybody else can publish anything th
want to, I guess, up to now .
   Mr. SARGENT. But they did give money to support the ideas se
forth in that pamphlet. That is a fact, and it will be connected u
   Mr. HAYS. You might be getting some concrete evidence . But yo
have been one who has been very solicitous here about wasting tim
You have got all this stuff written out .
   Apparently by vote of the committee we can not do anything abou
it and they are going to let you sit there until kingdom come o
doomsdays and read it . So why don't we just put the whole sheban
in the record, print it up, and then call you in when we have time to loo
it over and ask you a few questions about it .
   Mr. SARGENT . I would like to go on, sir .
   Mr. HAYS. I know you would like to go on. You have been tryin
to get before a congressional committee for years, and apparently yo
are enjoying it.
   But I think it is a waste of time .
   Mr. SARGENT . I think this is quite pertinent. I have here an impo
tant document . This is a photostat of the announcement of the su
mer sessions at Moscow University to be held in the year 1935 . Th
American Advisory Organization on that consisted of George
Counts and Heber Harper . The total number of names ,mentione
here is 25 . I will read them in the order in which they appear
the pamphlet.
   The first two are the ones I have named .
American educators at Moscow University in the summer of 1935
and bears an intimate relation to the propagandizing of the American
school system and will tie in with the foundation grants your com-
mittee is inquiring into .
  Mr. HAYS . That isn't the university at Moscow, Idaho, is it?
  Mr. SARGENT . This is printed in English, probably in New York
City . The National Education Association issued an advertisement
sponsoring this project in March 1935 in their journal .
  The CHAIRMAN . Since Mrs. Pfost comes from Idaho, she is particu-
larly interested in this .
  Mr. SARGENT . Moscow, not United States of America, let us say .
  The National Advisory Council on this summer session of 1935 con-
sisted of
  W. W. Charters, director, Bureau of Educational Research, Ohio
State University ; Harry Woodburn Chase-
   Mr. HAYS . Would you mind going back? I was called out .
   Mr. SARGENT. I thought you had left us for the time being .
   Mr. HAYS. Oh, no. I would never leave this interesting speech .
   Would you start over, there, until we make some sequence about
Ohio State University?
   Mr. SARGENT. Well, I read the first two names in the first place,
Counts and Harper . Then, the National Advisory Council, on the
opening page of this thing, consists of the following people
   W. W . Charters, director, Bureau of Educational Research, Ohio
State University
   Mr. HAYS . Now, then, right there. This is an advertisement you
are reading?
   Mr. SARGENT . No ; there is a formal official announcement of the
course of study listing the actual courses to be given over there, the
hours, the credit, and the entire arrangement.
   Mr. HAYS . Now, was that ever held?
   Mr. SARGENT . Yes ; definitely .
   Mr. HAYS . That is the same outfit that Joe McCarthy accused Mur-
row of sponsoring, isn't it?
   Mr. SARGENT . I don't know whether he did or not .
   Mr. HAYS . You know good and well it is .
   Mr. SARGENT. Murrow is on the list, and I have always understood
that it was held all right . I have been told that it was held. I think
everybody admits it was held .
   Mr. HAYS . Ed Murrow says it wasn't . Can you name anybody that
says it was? I mean, I am just interested in finding out . If it was
held, that is one thing . But if it is a phony you are dragging in here,
that is another thing.
   Mr. SARGENT. This is no phony. This has been referred to many
times, and I have never heard anybody deny the fact that such a
session was held . This is an official announcement for the holding of
a meeting.
   It has a study tour, and the whole thing .
   Mr. HAYS . I assume that that is what it is. But the question I am
asking is that you say it had a terrific effect in indoctrinating these
people. The mere fact that the ad appeared didn't indoctrinate any-
body.
they probably got indoctrinated . But I am trying to find out from
you if it was ever held .
   Mr. SARGENT . It is my understanding that definitely it was held i
accordance with this announcement here .
   Mr. HAYS. That is your understanding . Can you offer any
evidence?
   Mr. SARGENT . I have discussed the matter with various people i
this field, and that is the information given to me, that it was held
Until this moment, I have never heard anybody say it wasn't .
  The CHAIRMAN. You might check a little further on that and advise
us more definitely .
   Mr . HAYS . Now just a minute . If we are going to have more check
ing, let's leave the whole business until we get it checked. What I
would like to know right now : Can we have an agreement to bring i
Dr. Counts and let him tell us his story about it? Is he still living,
Mr. Wormser?
  Mr. WORMSER. I wouldn't know .
  Mr. HAYS . He must be getting pretty old now .
  Mr . DODD. No ; he is in his middle sixties .
  Mr. HAYS . I thought he was older than that . I heard his name
when I was in the university many years ago .
  Mr. SARGENT. This is an official announcement .
  Mr. HAYS : Just a minute.
  Let us let the committee decide what we are going to do . Don't be
too eager.
  Can we get an agreement at this time that at an appropriate time,
to be decided when the appropriate time is-I will be glad to leave that
to the Chair-this can be done.
  The CHAIRMAN . I see no objection . Then it will be agreed.
  Mr. HAYS . I have more than one motive . I had to read one of his
books when I was in college, and I always did want to ask him some-
thing.
  Mr. SARGENT. The second name was Harry Woodburn Chase,
chancellor of New York University ; and then
  George S . Counts, National Advisory Council, also professor of
education, Teachers College, Columbia University ;
  John Dewey, professor emeritus of philosophy, Columbia . Uni
versity ;
  Stephen Duggan, director, Institute of International Education ;
  Hallie F . Flanagan, professor of English, Vassar College ;
  Frank P . Graham, president, University of North Carolina ;
  Robert M. Hutchins, president, University of Chicago ;
  Charles H. Judd, dean, School of Education, University of Chicago
  I. L . Kandel, professor of education, Teachers College, Columbia
University ;
  Robert L . Kelly, secretary, Association of American Colleges ;
  John A. Kingsbury, secretary, Milbank Memorial Fund ;
  Susan M . Kingsbury, professor of social economy and social
research, Bryn Mawr College ;
  Paul Klapper, dean, School of Education, College of the City of
New York ;
Education ;
  William Allan Neilson	
  Mr. HAYS . May I interrupt you right there?
   That is the one we are talking about. And Mr. Murrow says it
wasn't held.
   Mr. SARGENT. It may or may not be what he is talking about. I
don't know . This particular thing is an official announcement and a,
detailed course listing . There may be something else about Murrow .
I don't know.
   Mr. HAYS . Mr. Chairman, I must object to this kind of stuff . I
mean, even Joe McCarthy had that thing repudiated, and I don't
see why we should let someone come in here and rehash that kind ;
of stuff .
   I mean, this is exactly the kind of thing that Joe accused Murrow-
of, and it has very definitely been established that the thing was never
held . Now, if it were held, that is material, and if those men went
there and became indoctrinated, I would like you to know that I :
would be one of the first to want to bring them in and cross-examine
them, but to let an obscure person who has no standing in the educa-
tional field come in here and malign people like this-I have to object
to this.
   Mr. SARGENT . It was not established that this was not held, and
I think it will be completely established that it was . And I do not
know whether this is the document about Murrow
  Mr. RAYS . You are under oath, but you keep saying you think it
was held, and it hasn't been clearly established .
  Now; do you know whether it was or whether it was not?
  Mr. SARGENT. I was told positively by Mr . Hunter, a Hearst cor-
respondent in Washington, D . C., that this meeting was held, and
the photostat I have in my hand was given to me by him .
  Mr. HAYS. Well, now, then, in other words, he knows more about
it than you?
  Mr. SARGENT . He is in the newspaper business, and he has contacts,
and he gave me this particular thing . I have also discussed this else-
where. I have never heard it suggested by anybody that this was,
not held .
  Mr. HAYS . You apparently don't read the papers much or look at
television, because it is pretty generally understood . It has been more
than suggested . It has been definitely said .
  Mr. SARGENT . Murrow has done a lot of things . I am not talking
about Murrow here . He is one of the names on the list, and my reason
for bringing, it up has nothing whatever to do with Mr . Murrow . It.
has to do with the educational picture your committee is considering .
  Mr. HAYS. Then why are you reading all these names?
  Mr. SARGENT . To show that a very large group connected with
American educational affairs at the time participated in the course .
of study offered by this document here, enumerating what kind of a
course of study it was, and the arrangement .
  Mr. HAYS . Now, Mr . Chairman, he is again saying they partici-
pated. They say they didn't . Can we again get an agreement, to
subpena Mr. Murrow and ask him about it?
     49720-54-pt. 1	1s
mentioned.
   Mr. HAYS . I nominate Mr . Murrow, because I think if it is a lie
is probably the fellow that can nail it to the cross about as quickly a
anyone that has been mentioned .
  The CHAIRMAN . But it would seem to me this would have som
bearing, regardless'of whether the summer school was actually hel
that the announcement, the program, the course of study, that w
agreed upon in anticipation of the school being held, has an importan
relationship regardless of whether the actual course of study was hel
Whether it was held or was not, I have no information .
  Mr. HAYS . I am inclined to agree with you, Mr. Chairman, that
would have a great deal of importance, even the fact that such
course was considered and floe ad was published . But this witne
keeps inferring, and bringing in names, and saying, "I know that i
was held," or "I have every reason to believe it was held ." And t
most prominent name perhaps that he has mentioned has been Edwa
R. Murrow . And I don't think I am being unreasonable if I ask tha
the committee agree at this moment to subpena Mr . Murrow an
merely ask him, "Was or was not this held" and then if you have an
other questions you want to ask him, that is good enough . That is a
I want to do .
  Mr. SARGENT. There is some other information, Mr . Hays.
  This pamphlet states on its face that sessions of this type were hel
in Moscow in 1933 and 1934, and it describes both of those sessions an
indicates that the present meeting I mention here had its origin out o
those meetings.
  So there is a direct statement here that two other sessions have bee
held previously .
  Mr. HAYS . I don't know what you are reading from .
  Mr. SARGENT . Well, I will come to that . I am trying to read thi
chronologically, in order to have no question about my making selec
tions or editing. I am beginning at the start, and I am goin
through it.
  Mr. WORMSER . Mr. Chairman, may I make a suggestion? I woul
be glad to have the staff ascertain whether it was held or not . If
was not, of course, we would be perfectly delighted to concede it
Mr. Hays.
  Mr. HAYS . I would like to have somebody under oath testify whethe
it was held or not .
  Mr. WoRMSER. Is that necessary?
  Mr. HAYS . I think it is.
  The CHAIRMAN. At the same time, I think it would be well for th
staff to ascertain the periods at which the schools were held .
  The committee will stand in recess .
   (Short recess .)
  The CHAIRMAN . The committee will be in order .
  Mr. HAYS . Mr. Chairman, I would like to state right now that
have just been in touch with New York and have hurriedly checke
the Ed Murrow statement, and he states positively and definitely-h
did on television-that this thing was never held' ; that the Sovi
Government canceled it ; that he personally did not go to Europe tha
summer, or to Russia ; that several members of this group didn't g
   Now, as I say, that was a hurried checking, and I would like to be
able to call somebody in who can do more than give hearsay . You
cannot admit hearsay evidence in a court, and that is all that this is .
   The CHAIRMAN. It has been agreed upon that some person connected
with the organization will be called, that can give definite testimony .
But if you will bear with the Chair a moment, what seems to be very
important to my mind is the reference to the session having been held
in 1933 and 1934, which has the same implication as the one that was
proposed for 1935 . And I, myself, am prepared to believe that there
is a question about whether that was actually held . But I think there
is significance so far as this hearing is concerned to the fact that it was
announced, that the course of study was made up, and certain educa-
tors and other interested persons here participated in the preliminary
activities to the holding of the summer school . Whether it was actu-
ally held, I agree is pertinent, but I think we can definitely establish
that fact, and some appropriate official will be summoned to give that
information .
   Mr. HAYS . The whole point of my objection is that again we have
evidence of this business of name dropping which, if left unchallenged,
would give the general impression to the public at large that Ed Mur-
row and all these other names mentioned were a bunch of Communist
sympathizers who were trying to actively promote communism in the
United States .
  Now, maybe some of the names mentioned are . I don't know . But I
did want the record to show that this is the same old tripe that we had
a big hassle over on television a few weeks ago, and I thought then it
was pretty definitely disposed of .
  If we have anything here this gentleman can present that has some
bearing on : the matter, that is one thing, but to continue this character
assassination and so on and so forth by inference and by saying, "Well,
somebody told me so,"-that is something else again .
   I think we will have to give these people, if there is any awareness
about this a chance to come in .
  The CHAIRMAN. Everybody who wants to come in will be given an
opportunity at the right time. But, again, it is my own feeling that
regardless of whether the summer school of 1935 was held, the pro-
gram from which Mr . Sargent is reading has an important bearing on
the subject. But I agree with you with reference to what you have
said.
  Mr. HAYS . Now, Mr . Sargent, right there, would you mind if I took
a look at that list? Not because I doubt what you are reading, but I
cannot keep all those names in my mind, and I would like to look at it
to see if there are any other names I recognize besides Ed . Murrow's .
  I do not know any of them personally, not one of them .
  Mr. SARGENT. Certainly.
  Mr. HAYS. Here is an example of what we are dealing with . It says
  The summer session originated as a result of an experiment conducted during
the summer of 1933 by a group of American educators . The American summer
school in Russia was organized to offer due courses dealing with "experimental
educational programs of the Soviet Union" and "institutional changes in the
Soviet Union ."
 on. That would be one viewpoint of it, wouldn't it? They didn'
want any one from America going back there after finding out wha
 they were doing? And I am not surprised that they did cancel it .
   The CHAIRMAN. I was going to ask Mr . Sargent if he would leav
 that with the committee, again not to be printed but as part of th
record?
   Mr. SARGENT. Yes, I will . There is a copy which was intended f
your use .
   The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.
   Mr. SARGENT. Two things are apparent on the face of this document
 One is that the group of persons I named here did apparently allo
their names to be used in the publication of a pamphlet containing a
offering of the program set forth in the document .
   Secondly, the March 1935 issue contains the same panel of name
here, a picture of Red Square in Moscow, and some detail bringin
the meeting to the attention of people in the educational professio
Those things we know.
   The exact fact, whether it was held later or canceled, is not withi
my personal knowledge, and I, therefore, offer no testimony .
   Mr. HAYS . Well, Mr. Sargent, would you say anyone who had eve
been behind the Iron Curtain was automatically suspect?
   Mr. SARGENT. I didn't say that. What has that to do with this
Am. I calling these people Reds? I didn't say that, either .
   Mr. HAYS . Not in so many words, but you are certainly trying t
infer that they are .
   Mr. SARGENT. I am saying that was the educational thinking a
the time, sir, and that is important background material in review
ing what this committee is supposed to determine, that the thinkin
has gone to a point where it was seriously considered to be a worth
while project to do the things which I am referring to here, readin
out of this pamphlet. That is an entirely different thing .
   Mr. HAYS . Did you read the part of the pamphlet I read?
   Mr. SARGENT . Yes, and I also read something at the end that you di
not read .
   Mr. HAYS . You have had, I don't know how long, to look at this
pamphlet . I had perhaps 2 minutes . But it seemed to me I picked u
a pretty significant statement there in the 2 minutes .
   Mr. SARGENT. There are some other very significant statements .
   Mr. HAYS . I would like to have time to study the whole thing
Maybe I will agree with you .
   Mr. SARGENT. I was reading the names here . The remaining lis
of names is William Allan Neilson, president, Smith College .
   Howard W . Odum, professor of sociology and director, school o
public welfare, University of North Carolina .
   William F. Russell, dean, Teachers College, Columbia University
   H. W. Tyler, general secretary, American Association of University
Professors .
   Ernest H . Wilkins, president, Oberlin College .
  John W . Withers, dean, School of .Education . New York University
   Thomas Woody, professor of history of education, University o
Pennsylvania.
  The next page says
  The tremendous progress of the Soviet Union in the cultural field creates for
Americans an unequal observation ground for education, sociology, and the
social sciences . The Soviet Union presents a unique opportunity for the study
of the processes of cultural change . The first and second 5-year plans, by creating
the foundations of a planned economy, have brought about a complete recon-
struction in the social attitudes and behavior of the Russian people .
   It says
  The Soviet Union possesses the most progressive system of public education,
extensively making use of the best achievements of international pedagogy .
  The CHAIRMAN . This is all in the announcement?
  Mr. SARGENT . Yes . All in the announcement . I am getting repre-
sentative samples out of the document, and I am giving you the docu-
ment.
   Under "Purpose," on page 4, it says that this summer session is open
to all academically qualified foreigners who are interested in the cul-
tural and educational aspects of life in the Soviet Union ; that the
director of the Moscow University summer session is a Soviet educator .
  The summer session is officially an organizational part of the Moscow State
University.
  In order to insure close cooperation with American educational institutions,
and with students and educators in the United States, an advisory relationship
was established in 1933 with the Institute of International Education .
   I might comment again here, as I showed before : As to the Rocke-
feller Foundation, Rockefeller in some form was a contributor to that
international educational institute . The Teachers College pamphlet,
Introducing Teachers College, so states.
   Mr. HAYS . Is that Rockefeller, junior, or the foundation?
   Mr. SARGENT. I don't know . I read you the excerpt before . It
read, the Rockefellers in some form contributed, at least, to that inter-
national educational institute . . The writings of George Counts show
that he was a director of the Institute of International Education .
That appears in a number of his writings, including one entitled
"Driving a Ford Across Soviet Russia," or some similar title, published
about 1929 .
   Now, going on with this document here
  At the same time, a national advisory council of prominent American edu-
cators was formed by Prof. Stephen Duggan to assist the Institute of Inter-
national Education in its advisory capacity . To facilitate still closer rap-
proachement, each year several American educators are invited to Moscow as
resident advisers to the summer session . Dr . George S . Counts and Dr . Heber
Harper, professors of education, Teachers College, Columbia University, will
act as advisers during the summer session of 1935 .
  The Moscow University summer, session is sponsored in the Soviet Union by
the Peoples' Commissariat of Education of the Russian Socialist Federated Soviet
Republic ; by VOKS, the All-Union Society for Cultural Relations with Foreign
Countries ; and by Intourist, the state travel company of the U . S . S. R. Intourist,
through its educational department will supply information to persons interested .
   The cover I have here shows that this is a document of, it says,
 World Tourists, Inc . The Intourist label, I think, appears here later .
   No, I guess I am mistaken on that point .
during the summer of 1933 by a group of American educators . The Americ
summer school in Russia was organized in 1933 to offer two courses .
  Mr. HAYS . Are you going to read that whole document?
  Mr. SARGENT . No, just excerpts .
   Mr. HAYS . Why don't we just, by unanimous consent, . put t
whole thing in the record, Mr. Chairman?
   Mr . SARGENT. Well, I would like to excerpt briefly here .
   Mr. HAYS. You seem to like to read. But I would rather read i
directly, if it is all right . It would save a litle time .
   Mr. SARGENT. I want to review the course of study here, the dif
ferent courses studied . There is one in art and literature, 32 hours
2 semester units .
   Mr. HAYS . Now, wait a minute . Just a minute.
   The CHAIRMAN. Is there any objection to inserting it ; instead
filing it as a document, having it printed in the record at the appro
priate point in connection with your testimony?
   Mr. SARGENT. You mean printing it in full?
   The CHAIRMAN. Printing it in full .
   Mr. SARGENT . Well, perhaps not.
   I would just like to say a few words about the nature of the courses
   Mr. HAYS . You can say whatever you like . The, only thing I a
interested in : If you are going to read the whole thing, s'lePs- jus
put it . in and we can have your comment .
   The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, it will be printed as part o
the record, Mr. Reporter.
   (The document referred to follows :)
                                     [Flyleaf]
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                            MOSCOW UNIVERSITY
                                 SUMMER SESSION

                            (Anglo-American Section)
American Advisory Organization
                   INSTITUTE OF INTERNATIONAL EDUCATION, INC .
  Advisors : George S . Counts and Heber Harper .
                           NATIONAL ADVISORY COUNCIL
  W. W. Charters, director, Bureau of Educational Research, Ohio State Un
versity .
  Harry Woodburn Chase, chancellor of New York University .
  George S . Counts, professor of education, Teachers College, Columbia Uni
versity .
  John Dewey, professor emeritus of philosophy, Columbia University .
  Stephen Duggan, director, Institute of International Education .
  Robert M . Hutchins, president, University of Chicago .
  Charles H . Judd, dean, School of Education, University of Chicago .
  I . L . Kandel, professor of education, Teachers College, Columbia University .
  Robert L . Kelly, secretary, Association of American Colleges .
  John A . Kingsbury, secretary, Milbank Memorial Fund .
  Susan M . Kingbury, professor of social economy and social research, Bryn
Mawr College .
  Paul Klapper, dean, School of Education, College of the City of New York .
  Charles R. Mann, director, American Council on Education .
  Edward R . Murrow, assistant director, Institute of International Education .
   William Allan Neilson, president, Smith College .
   Howard W . Odum, professor of sociology and director, School of Public Wel-
fare, University of North Carolina .
  William F . Russell, dean, Teachers College, Columbia University .
  H . W . Tyler, general secretary, American Association of University Professors .
   Ernest H . Wilkins, president, Oberlin College .
  John W . Withers, dean, School of Education, New York University .
   Thomas Woody, professor of history of education, University of Pennsylvania .
   Harvey W . Zorbaugh, director, Clinic for the Social Adjustment of Gifted
Children, New York University .
      The tremendous progress of the Soviet Union in the cultural field
    creates for Americans an unequalled observation ground for education,
    psychology, and the .social sciences . The Soviet Union presents a unique
    opportunity for the study of the processes of cultural change . The first
    and second Five Year Plans, by creating the foundations of a planned
    national economy, have brought about a complete reconstruction in the
    social attitudes and behavior of the Russion people .
      From „a backward and illiterate country, the U . S . S . R . has been trans-
    formed into a modern industrial nation . Illiteracy has been almost
    abolished. The Soviet Union possesses the most progressive system of
    public education, extensively making use of the best achievements of
    international pedagogy. Soviet policy in social welfare, the care of
    mothers and children, the re-education and re-direction of lawless ele-
    ments, and in other fields, presents a provocative challenge to students
    on all levels .
                                      PURPOSE
  Moscow University summer session conducts an Anglo-American section, open
to all academically qualified foreigners who are interested in the cultural and
educational aspects of life in the Soviet Union . Instruction is in the English
language, by an all-Soviet faculty of professors and specialists. The State Uni-
versity of Moscow certifies academic credit to those foreign students meeting
the requirements of the university and completing a course of study in its Anglo-
American section . The director of the Moscow University summer session is a
Soviet educator . The summer session is officially an organizational part of the
Moscow State University .
  In order to insure close cooperation with American educational institutions,
and with students and educators in the United States, an advisory relationship
was established in 1933 with the Institute of International Education . At the
same time, a National Advisory Council of prominent American educators was
formed by Prof . Stephen Duggan to assist the Institute of International Educa-
tion in its advisory capacity . To facilitate still closer rapprochment, each year
several American educators are invited to Moscow as resident advisers to the
summer session . Dr . George S . Counts and Dr . Heber Harper, professors of edu-
cation, Teachers' College, Columbia University, will act as advisers during the
summer session of 1935 .
  The Moscow University summer session is sponsored in the Soviet Union by
the Peoples' Commissariat of Education of the Russian Socialist Federated
Soviet Republic ; by VOKS, the All-Union Society for Cultural Relations with
Foreign Countries ; and by INTOURIST, the State Travel Company of the U . S . R . R.
Intourist, through its Educational Department, will supply information to per-
sons interested .
  Moscow University will offer, in its Anglo-American section, during the summer
of 1935, a variety of courses to serve as a means of furthering cultural contacts
between American and Russian teachers and students . The summer session
 search. However, the-purpose of the summer session is primarily that of assis
 ing foreigners in a survey and understanding of the various phases of contemp
 rary life in the Soviet Union .
                                     ORIGIN
    The summer session originated as the result of an experiment conducted du
 ing the summer of 1933 by a group of American educators . The "Americ
 Summer School in Russia" was organized in 1933 to offer two courses deali
 with "Experimental Educational Programs of the Soviet Union" and "Inst
 tutional Changes in the Soviet Union ." These two courses were conducted
 Moscow in an experimental fashion with a group of twenty-five teachers a
 students of education.
   At the second summer session in 1934, thirteen courses were offered in fi
 major fields of art and literature, sociology, psychology, education and resear
 'The staff was composed of twenty-two professors and academic assistants . T
 hundred and twelve students attended the 1934 session . Among them we
 undergraduates, teachers, principals, professors, psychologists, social worker
'physicians, nurses and artists.
   Basing their judgment upon the undeniable success of these ventures, t
 'Soviet educational authorities organized at the University of Moscow, an Angl
 American section offering full and regular summer instruction in English . T
 students and professors of the 1933 and 1934 sessions approved the academic a
 vantages of the plan, which enabled the student to travel during his vacati
 period and at the same time to further his own professional experience . It i
 plan that has the full support of the foremost educators and scientists of t
 Soviet Union .
   The directors of the summer school discovered that while American educato
 displayed great interest in Soviet education, it was evident that outside of t
 'Soviet Union there existed no profound knowledge of actual conditions in t
 Soviet school world . These considerations, coupled with the ever present Ru
 sian eagerness for close cultural contact with Americans, are the primary reaso
 for the continuation of the plan.
                      THE PLAN OF THE SUMMER SESSION
   Moscow University summer session offers the student an opportunity to co
 bine summer vacation with study and European travel at very economical rate
 Special rates for maintenance in the Soviet Union are available only to student
 teachers or social workers who attend the summer session .
                                ACADEMIC PROGRAM
   The Anglo-American section of the Moscow University summer session offe
 a wide choice of subjects and courses . The courses offered during the 1935 se
 sion, which begins on July 19th in Moscow, are listed below under special gro
 headings.
                               ART AND LITERATURE
Arts in the U. S. S. R.--30 hours, 2 semester units
   (Requires minimum of thirty additional hours observation and field wor
Open to all students .)
  A discussion of contemporary painting, sculpture, architecture, music, theate
and the dance in the Soviet Union . The course will offer the student a conce
of the relation of art to the building of the new Soviet society . Topics to
discussed will include the features of socialist realism in art ; the social stat
of artists ; the economic organization enabling creative work ; and the role
the arts in the program of popular education .
  Observation and field work will be scheduled in gallaries, studios, theatres f
children and adults, research institutes, club houses for artists and other inst
tutions for the development of art activities .
Literature o f Russia and the Soviet Union-30 hours, 2 semester urn4ts
   (Requires a minimum of thirty adidtional hours of library work . Open to a
students .)
  The course will present a prief survey of pre-revolutionary Russia literatu
and the effects of the old writers upon the new. There will be included a descri
tion of the historical stages of Soviet literature ; the present school of sociali
in the program for the building of socialism .
      INSTITUTIONAL CHANGES AND SOCIAL BACKGROUNDS OF SOVIET SOCIETY
Principles of the Collective and Socialist Society-30 hours, 2 semester units
   (The course, or is equivalent, prerequesite for all students . Students may re-
quest exemption when registering .)
  An elementary course, presenting and describing the basic ideas and institu-
tions of Soviet society . Beginning with a brief historical account, the course will
present in simple terms the theory and practice of socialist construction . Among
the topics included in the course are : the theories underlying the Soviet State ; i
the organization of the government and the Soviet economy ; the program of
educational and cultural advance ; the relation of the individual to the family
and to other social groups ; the question of the village and the collectivization
of agriculture ; and the solution of the problems of national minorities . The
course is intended as a general survey of Soviet life .
Justice and the Correctional Policy of the S . U.-30 hours, 2 semester units
   (Requires 15 additional hours of observation . Open to all students.)
  The course will describe the Soviet system of jurisprudence and the adminis-
tration of justice . There will be a review of the major theories of criminology
as well as the Marxian point of view towards the problem of crime . It will then
specifically deal with crime and its eradication in the Soviet Union . Programs
for the education of delinquents (children and adolescents) and for the reclama-
tion of criminals will be presented . In connection with this course, there will be
visits of observation to the various institutions concerned with this problem .
Organization of Public Health and Socialized Medicine 80 hours, 2 semester units
   (Requires a minimum of fifteen additional hours of observation and field work .
Open to all students . Recommended to social workers, physicians and health
education specialists.)
  The course presents a study of the organization of health and medical services
in the U . S . S. R . There will be a description of the organization and programs
of hospitals, clinics, rest homes, sanataria and dispensaries in their relationships
to factories and farms ; medical research and the work of experimental institutes ;
training of medical workers ; care of women and children in factories, schools
and on farms ; social psychiatry and mental hygiene ; physical education and
programs for disease prevention ; and the organization of professional medicine
as a state function .
                              EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
Survey of Education in the U . S. S. R-80 hours, 4 semester units
   (Requires a minimum of thirty additional hours of library, observation and
field work . Open to teachers and students of education .)
   This course will describe the philosophy, curricula, and methods of the follow-
ing divisions of Soviet education
   A.-The Unified Polytechnical School and Its Pre-school Foundations : The
polytechnical school includes elementary and secondary education . The course
will begin with an examination of Soviet pre-school institutions .
   B-Vocational and Higher Education : The course will present the Soviet pro-
gram for the training of workers of all grades and in all fields ; it will include
a description of such institutions as factory and mill schools, workers' schools
 (rabfacs), technicums, higher technical schools, pedagogical institutes, medical
schools, institutes of Soviet law, art universities, Communist universities and
universities proper. Subjects of special interest will be the composition of the
student body, the system of maintenance stipends for students, the problems of
control and administration, and the relation of vocational and professional
education to the planned economy .
   C-Extra School and Adult Education Agencies : The course will deal with those
educational agencies which reach children as well as adults-libraries, reading
rooms, evening and correspondence courses, the press, book stores, clubs,
museums, galleries, travel and excursions, radio, post and telegraph, cinema and
theatre, the activities of popular societies, etc .
  The course will study the relation of social planning to scientific research
the Soviet Union . The course will include a description of the early types
planning under military Communism ; the plan formulated by Lenin for t
electrification of the country ; the development of the State Planning Commi
sion from its founding in 1921 ; the structure and function of the system
planning organizations, and the actual methods utilized in the preparation a
execution of the first and second five-year plans . The student will be given
outline of the Marxian view of the role of science in socialistic society, and
account of the coordinated development of the Soviet network of scientif
research institutes . Soviet development in the fields of social and physic
sciences will be studied . The course will conclude with a summary of the prese
status of planning and science in the Soviet Union .
Survey of Psychological Research-30 hours, 2 semester units
  (Requires minimum of fifteen additional hours of library, laboratory or obse
vation work . Registration open only to advanced students of psychology .)
  This course presents an advanced discussion of the technical and specializ
phases of experimental psychology in the Soviet Union . Such topics as the fo
lowing will be considered : the status of psychology in Russia prior to the Revol
tion of 1917 ; the theories of reflexology and conditioning (Pavlov and Bec
terov) ; trends in contemporary psychological research in the U . S . S . R . ; Sov
advance in applied psychology and psychotechnics ; psychology and industri
rationalization ; and the relation of Marxism-Leninism to psychology .
                       HISTORY, ECONOMICS AND PHILOSOPHY
History of the Soviet Union-60 hours, 4 semester units
   (Requires a minimum of thirty additional hours of library work . Open to a
students.)
  This course opens with a study of prerevolutionary Russian history . T
course will continue with a study of the forces underlying the Czarist policy
home and abroad ; the social and economic life of the people under the old regim
the early mass uprisings, strikes and revolutions ; the development of capitali
and industry ; the distribution of land and property ; the revolutionary moveme
prior to 1905 : the 1905 revolution ; the World War and the collapse of the o
order ; the February and October revolutions ; the period of military Communis
civil war and NEP ; the reconstruction era ; the first and second five-year plans
Economic Policy and Geography of the U . S. S . R.-60 hours, 4 semester units
   (Requires thirty additional hours of library, observation and field work . Op
to all students .)
  The course will discuss the general economic development of the U . S . S . R .
presenting an historical account of the building of socialism in relation to t
geographic factors. Topics included in the course are : The period of a milita
Communism in the first years of the revolution ; the new economic policy inaug
rated in 1.921, and the program of planned construction launched by the firs
five-year plan in 1928 . The course will also touch upon the problems of forei
and domestic trade, wages, housing, social benefits, taxation, Soviet moneta
system, etc .
Philosophy of Dialectical Materialism-30 hours, 2 semester units
   (Requires a minimum of fifteen hours library work . Open only to advanc
students having necessary background in history of philosophy .)
  This course will present an introduction to the philosophy of dialectical m
terialism . The works of Marx, Lenin, and Stalin will be utilized for the present
tion of the basic positions, postulates and doctrines of dialectical materiali
The course will also point out the important applications of the philosophy
dialectical materialism to scientific research both in social and natural science
                                     LANGUAGE
Advanced Russian for Foreigners-30 hours, 2 semester units
   (Open to students with elementary knowledge of Russian .),
  The course will build a more thorough reading knowledge and a better coll
quial use of Russian . The emphasis will be entirely upon the practice of Russi
for conversational and research purposes . Oral and written composition will
                                     CALENDAR
   July 16-18 incl . : Preliminary sessions in Leningrad .
   July 19 : Official opening session in Moscow .
   Aug. 13 : Examinations and final session in Moscow .
   Aug. 14-25 incl . : Travel field work period.
   NoTE.-Students may arrive in Leningrad between July 16th and 18th . Those
students arriving in Leningrad after July 16, but not later than July 18th, will
be granted the privilege of remaining in Kiev for an additional number of days,
bringing the total to forty days from date of arrival . Students arriving in
Leningrad or Moscow earlier than July 16th will be charged the regular Intourist
rate of $5 per day in supplement to the basic summer session rate .
   The basic rate for travel and maintenance in the Soviet Union during the
period of the summer session is $176 .00. No refunds will be granted students
 leaving the Soviet Union before the end of the summer session, unless with-
drawal is caused by illness or force majeure .
   These regulations are stated in order to permit the necessary adjustment
caused by varying dates of arrival in the Soviet Union .
                    DAILY CLASS SCHEDULE
Hour                                 Course
 9-10	Philosophy of Dialectical Materialism.
      Survey of Psychological Research .
      Principles of the Collective and Socialist Society .
10-12	Science and Technic in the U . S . S. R .
      Survey of Education in the U. S . S . R .
      History of the Soviet Union .
      Economic Policy and Geography of the U . S. S . R.
12-1	Arts in the U. S. S . R.
      Organization of Public Health and Socialized Medicine .
      Justice and the Correctional Policy of the Soviet Union .
 2-3	Literatures of Russia and the Soviet Union .
      Advanced Russian for Foreigners .
                              ACADEMIC REGULATIONS
   1 . Enrollments are accepted for one or more courses, but the total number of
class room hours may not exceed ninety (six semester units) .
   2 . The course "Principles of the Collective and Socialist Society" is prerequisite
for admission to all other courses ; however, the student may enroll simultane-
ously in this and other courses . Students may be exempted from this requirement
by presenting evidence of having completed
        a-An equivalent course during the Moscow University summer sessions
      of 1933 or 1934 .
        b-An equivalent course in an American school or university .
        c-The reading of at least three approved references on the subject .
   3. Students enrolling in "Survey of Psychological Research" must list at least
three previous courses in psychology when filling out the application form .
   4 . Changes in program may not be made later than one week after the opening
 of the summer session in Moscow .
   5 . Moscow University reserves the right to dismiss students for unsatisfactory
 work or conduct.
   6. Students may not attend courses other than those in which they are enrolled ;
 auditors will not be permitted .
   7 . Students may not enroll in "Philosophy of Dialectical Materialism" without
 necessary recommendations or prerequisite courses.
   8 . All registrations are subject to the approval of the director of Moscow Uni-
 versity summer session or the American representative of Moscow University .
   9 . Academic credit will not be granted to students absent during more than
 three class sessions.
                                     TRAVEL PLAN
  The unique feature of the summer school plan, offered by the Anglo-American
section of Moscow University, is the combination of class room and laboratory
study with travel in the Soviet Union . The educational directors of the uni-
versity are of the opinion that an adequate understanding of the policies and
and in order to permit the visitor to become acquainted with the many aspect
of social conditions not only in one locale but throughout the country, eac
course listed is offered in conjunction with field work tours . These will inclu
the major cities of the Soviet Union, and permit close observation of institutiona
life .
   Academic work at the University of Moscow includes approximately fou
weeks of resident study and two weeks of supervised travel . The itineraries f
the travel period have been set up to meet professional and academic interest
All students enrolled are offered the choice of the following itineraries .
            Itinerary No . 1                       Itinerary No. 4
Aug . 14-Leave Moscow-late after- Aug. 14-Leave Moscow-evening
             noon                             15-Old Rostov
      15-En route                             16-Yaroslavl
      16-Arrive Sevastopol-morning            17-Yaroslavl-leave for Mo
      17-To Yalta                                   cow
      18-Yalta                                18-Moscow
      19-Yalta                                19-Leave Moscow-evening
      20-Yalta                                20-Arrive Leningrad-mornin
      21-Yalta ; leave Yalta-morning                leave afternoon
      22-Arrive       Odessa-morning ;        21-Pskov
             leave evening                    22-From Pskov to Stara
      23-Arrive Kiev                                Russia and by boat to O
      24-Kiev                                       Novgorod
      25-Leave Kiev-noon, for Shepe-          23-Old Novgorod-Leave f
             tovka                                Leningrad
                                              24-Arrive Leningrad-mornin
            Itinerary No . 2                  25-Leave Leningrad, for Be
                                                    Ostrov (or by steamer)
Aug. 14-Leave Moscow-noon
      15-Arrive Rostov-evening                     Itinerary No. 5
      16-Rostov
      17-Rostov                         (15 Day Itinerary-Supplementa
      18-Leave Rostov-afternoon                      Cost $20 .00)
      19-Arrive Sochi-morning          Aug. 14-Leave Moscow-evening
      20-Sochi                                15-Arrive Gorki-morning
      21-Leave Sochi-evening                  16-Leave Gorki-noon
      22-23--En route                         17-On the Volga
      24-Arrive Odessa                       19-On the Volga
      25-Leave Odessa-evening, for
             Shepetovka                       19-On the Volga
                                              20-Arrive      Stalingrad-mor
           Itinerary No . 3                         ing ; leave evening
                                              21-Arrive Rostov-evening
Aug. 14-Leave Moscow-late after-              22-Rostov
            noon                              23-Rostov
      15-Arrive Kharkov-noon                 24-Rostov
      16-Kharkov                             25-Leave Rostov-morning ; a
      17-Leave Kharkov-noon ; ar-                   rive Kharkov-evening
             rive Dnieproges-evening         26-Kharkov
      18-Dnieproges-Leave evening            27-Kharkov-leave evening
      19-Arrive      Sevastopol-morn-        28-Kiev
            ing ; to Yalta                   29-Leave Kiev, for Shepetovk
      20-Yalta
      21-Leave Yalta-morning                       Itinerary No . 6
      22-Arrive Odessa -morning ;         (15 Day Itinerary-Supplementary
            leave evening                            Cost $20.00)
      23-Arrive Kiev
      24-Kiev                          Aug. 14-Leave Moscow-late after
      25-Leave Kiev-noon, for Shep-                 noon
            etovka                           15-Arrive Kharkov-noon
   (15 Day Itineary-Supplementary            (15 Day Itinerary-Supplementary
        Cost $20.00)-Continued                    Cost $20.00)-Continued
Aug . 16-Leave Kharkov-evening            Aug. 23-En route
       17-En route                               24-En route
       18-Arrive Kislovodsk                      25-Arrive Yalta-morning
       19-Kislovodsk to Ordzhonikidze            26-Yalta
       20-Georgian Highway                       27-Leave Yalta-morning
       21-Tiflis-leave for Batum                 28-Arrive Odessa -morning ;
       22-Batum-leave evening for                       leave afternoon
             Yalta                               29-Kiev
  Students are urged to select their itinerary, and indicate their choice upon
the attached registration form, before sailing from New York . Although it is
permissible to choose the itinerary while in residence in Moscow, in order to
avoid congestion in office routine it is advisable that the choice of itinerary be
indicated as soon as possible .
                         ACCOMMODATIONS AND SOCIAL LIFE
  Accommodations offered to visitors attending the summer session of the Mos=cow
     University are of the dormitory type . These quarters are designed for stu-
dents who wish to approximate in the living conditions the life of the typical
Soviet students .
  Persons desiring individual rooms, or rooms for two, may be accommodated
in the dormitories ; but since the number of such rooms is limited, requests for
other than regular dormitary quarters will be considered in order of their receipt .
Supplementary rates for individual or double rooms will be supplied upon request.
  Accommodations include three full meals daily and lodging . In addition, the
summer- session provides .guide and interpreter service, rail and motor travel,
through Intourist, the Soviet State of Travel Company .
                 e*




  The spirit of the summer session is that of the true Soviet school . In its unique
student organization and control of all physical and academic problems, the vis-
itor to the Moscow University begins to understand, through a feeling of partici-
pation, the functioning of a Soviet university .
  Athletic, cultural and social activities after school hours are provided for the
visitor through the cooperation of Soviet student groups . Sightseeing, the the-
atre, the cinema, boating and bathing, the publishing of a "wall newspaper," are
but a few of the extra curricular activities available . Soviet life is rich in cul-
tural opportunities for all . The tourist is usually unable to fully avail himself of
these opportunities. But the student of the summer . session will have ample op-
portunity to participate in any activity he chooses .
  Students accepting dormitory accommodations must be fully aware that these
accommodations are not luxurious . They are plain but clean. They do not
provide the privacy or comforts offered by hotels . Dormitory accommodations
are available mainly because many students cannot afford the higher cost of hotel
residence. There are separate dormitories for men and women, with a limited
number of rooms for married couples.
                                 ACADEMIC CREDIT
   The Moscow University summer session certifies foreign students for full
academic credit at the University of Moscow .. The student may offer the certifi-
cate of attendance and credit, issued by the University of Moscow, to the faculty
of the American college or university at which he is regularly enrolled, for evalu-
ation and recognition in accordance . with the policies and procedures of the insti-
tution. In order to assist in the evaluation of credit, the director of the Moscow
University summer session will provide the dean, faculty advisor or other admin-
istrative official with a full academic description of courses and of the progress in
work of each student. The minimum university credit possible is two points
and the maxmum is six points (semester units) .
   New York City school teachers may offer the certificates issued by the Uni-
versity of Moscow to meet the requirements for annual salary increment (alert-
ness credit) .
tions will be given in all courses.
                                REGISTRATION AND FEES
   Courses are open to all persons interested in the cultural and social progre
of the Soviet Union.
  Registrants desiring academic credit must be bona-fide undergraduate or gra
uate university students ; teachers on elementary, secondary or university leve
or social workers .
  Before registering, students must examine the daily class schedule in ord
not to enroll in courses conflictina with each other . After the student's applic
tion has been received and accepted, the Educational Department of Intouri
will issue to each student a class admission card as well as a student identifica
tion card . All student applications must be approved by the office of the Institu
of International Education .
  Tuition fees are payable at time of registration . All checks for tuition a
registration fees must be made payable to the order of Intourist, Inc ., which
empowered to collect fees for the Moscow University . The total registration f
is $2 .50, regardless of the number of courses in which the student may enrol
The tuition fee for each thirty-hour course is $20 .00 ; the tuition fee for ea
sixty-hour course is $40.00 .
  Tuition fees will be refunded in case of changed plans, at any time prior
July 3, 1935 . Registration fees will not be refunded.
                                  MAINTENANCE COST
   The cost of maintenance for the entire summer session, from July 16 to Augu
25th, inclusive is $176 .00 .
   This amount includes the cost of maintenance in Leningrad or Moscow fr
July 16th to July 18th ; maintenance in dormitories from July 19th to Augu
13th ; maintenance and third-class travel costs from August 14th to August 25th
inclusive .
   Students may purchase all travel and maintenance service through local trav
agents . Intourist, Inc ., provides all travel agents with complete informati
concerning maintenance, travel, and other services in the Soviet Union . Aft
the student has purchased the necessary service through the travel agent ; he w
be supplied with covering service-documents to be presented upon his arrival
the Soviet Union to Intourist .
   At the earliest possible date, each student will receive a dormitory room-assig
ment card, a student identification card, and the necessary class admission car

                                  REGISTRATION FORM
                      MOSCOW UNIVERSITY (Summer Session)
                              (ANGLO-AMERICAN SECTION)
Directions
      1 . Please print legibly in ink . Answer all questions.
      2 . Consult Daily Class Schedule before listing courses.
      3 . If you desire academic credit, consult the dean or advisor of your school
      4 . Checks or money orders must be drawn to order of INTOURIST, INC.
      5. Mail application form, together with tuition and registration fees,
    the Educational Department, Intourist, Inc ., 545 Fifth Ave., New York Ci
      6. For travel information and purchase of maintenance services in t
    Soviet Union, consult your local travel agent .
                                ^PPoCATION FORM
_________________________ -------------------------------------
                  Name                                      Address
------------------------ ------------------------ ------------------------
       Birth uow                   o"conxu"u                       Pymmnvxu
____________ ------------------------ ------------------------
         Degrees              Present academic status            School or college
Do you                     Have you consulted              His
   uooirocrouo*,	oouuorAdvisor? 	Name __ .	.
8movuoUniversity fooreference (Nxou")	(Address)	
List	
If enrolling in advanced course, list previous courses or work in field 	
If applying for exemption from prerequisite course, state reasons 	
List Soviet Union Itinerary No 	Total amount of fees enclosed 	
     -------------------------------- __________________- (Signature)
   The CzeuaIKAN . Now you may make your comments .
   Mr. SARGENT . There are a number of variety courses here, one
on art and literature including Socialist realism in art, discussing the
role of the Socialist writer in the program of building for socialism .
The principles of the collective and Socialist society, a prerequisite for
all students ; the course of justice and correctional policy, discussing
the Russian system ; one on organization of public health and social-
ized medicine, including social psychiatry and mental hygiene ; one on
survey of education in the U . S. S . R . ; another on science and tech-
      in the U. S. S . R. ; one on a study of psychological research ;
theories of reflexology and conditioning .
   Mr. HAYS . Mr. Sargent, you are not commenting. You are just
  Mr. 'SARGENT . It refers to the works of Pavlov here.
  Ml% HAY& We have that all in the record . It is in by unanimous

  Mr. SSARGENT. My comments are that this document shows a frame-
work of a complete system of indoctrination of American educators
which could only be put together on the theory of their receiving such
indoctrination ~nd coming back here and introducing it into our
school system . It even includes the reflexology item I just referred
to, including material on Pavlov, who was the author of the princi-
ples of brain washing .
  It includes a travel program for these educators to go to the Soviet
Union and travel around various parts of the country . One of these
travel schedules included 5 days at Yalta, among other things .
  There are five different itineraries . It says a unique feature was that
they would live under conditions approximating that of the average
Soviet student, and the educators attending could even receive aca-
                                                s
       credit, and the New York City teachers would.~~get -salary incre-
                                                          ~         incre-
ment
ment in the New York City school system by attending the meeting .
they were profoundly in sympathy with the doing of that kind
thing at the period that is mentioned here . This is offered in full
the transcript of my testimony .
   Mr. HAYS . What the committee is concerned about, Mr . Sarge
Could you give us any estimate of how many more pages of your stat
ment there are to read there?
   Mr. SARGENT . I am not going to read the entire binder, if th
is what you mean . It contains blank paper and various things
which I might want to refer .
   The CHAIRMAN. The statement of Mr . Hays was that we h
anticipated that you would have required 2 days .
   Now, the way the situation has developed, I told him we h
anticipated you would be able to finish tomorrow.
   We are to have two sessions . Of course,, that is not binding
anybody, but that is our goal insofar as your direct testimony is co
cerned. That is the frame of time that we had in mind .
   As you state, I did not have in mind that you were going to re
all that is in the notes there .
   Mr. WORMSER. Do you think you could finish in two sessio
tomorrow?
   Mr. SARGENT . I will make every effort to . I think probably .
   The CHAIRMAN. We want all pertinent information included .
the same time, we do want to conserve the time of the committee
much as we can.
   Mr. SARGENT . Would it be possible, just in case, if I had one sess
on the following day?
   The CHAIRMAN. We don't want to commit ourselves definitely
this time.
  Mr. SARGENT. I will make every effort to do that.
   Mr. HAYS . As I understand it, now, you are going to take at le
two more sessions and probably a third just to get through readi
your statement?
   Mr. SARGENT. Oh, no . I have an outline of various points to cov
here. I am getting pretty well through this historical material . I
getting down to specific topics .
   Mr. HAYS . The thing that I am driving at is that it is going
take you this long to get through your presentation before we sta
crossing ; is that right?
  Mr. §ARDENT. Presumably . Regardless of the reason one way
the other, I have had only a fraction of the time so far, and it h
put me off my stride here, and I have to get back on .
  Mr. HAYS . There we are getting into the realm of something th
is not within the realm of hearsay . We can measure the pages a
find out what fraction you have had, and I think you will find out it
a big fraction.
  Frankly, I might say that your diatribe has a tendency to afflict
with ennui .
  The purpose of this is to try to find out when the committee is goi
to adjourn for the weekend and when we are going to reconvene ne
week, because Sunday is Memorial Day, and Mr . Reece and I at lea
have commitments for Memorial Day .
in an outline tomorrow morning for my guidance which will enable
me to refer to certain things, leave the document with you relating to
it, and state its general scope .
   Mr. HAYS . We are not going to try to cut you off .
  Mr. SARGENT. I understand that .
   Mr. HAYS . But we are just trying to find out how long we can run
this week and when we can come back next week .
   Mr. SARGENT . I think I can do quite well on a full run tomorrow .
   The CHAIRMAN . The committee, when it recesses at noon Thursday,
will recess to convene the following Wednesday morning at 10 o'clock
at a place to be announced .
   You may proceed, Mr . Sargent. We will go along as far as we can
this afternoon .
   Mr. SARGENT . Now, Professor George S . Counts, one of those spon-
soring this session, became a professor of education at Teachers Col-
lege, Columbia University, in the year 1927, and an associate director
of the Teachers College International Institute at the same time .
   In 1929 he edited a translation of a book by a Soviet educator, Albert
P. Pinkevitch, who was president of the Second State University of
Moscow . The book states that it was translated under the auspices of
the International Institute of Columbia .
   In 1931 he published a translation of the New Russian Primer,
which was the story of the 5-year plan . The same year he wrote
a book entitled "The Soviet Challenge to America ." He was still
associate director of this International Institute at that particular
time.
   In February of 1933, the Progressive Education Journal, which is
the official publication of the Progressive Education Society, published
an article in which Johannson I . Zilberfarb, a member of the State
Scientific Council and Commissariat of Education of the Russian
Republic, wrote an article commenting on this pamphlet, Dare the
School Build a New Social Order?
   The editors and publishers of the magazine published an excerpt
from a letter that Zilberfarb had written to Counts showing the close
sympathy existing between the two men at the time, and here is an
excerpt from the letter in the magazine . It says
  I read with a great deal of interest your recent publication, Dare the School
Build a New Social Order? The remarkable progress you have made in challeng-
ing capitalism gave me much pleasure and fired me with confidence in a yet
greater friendship between us . This feeling, however, in no way moderated my
criticisms of the pamphlet, as you will observe from the enclosed view . May I
be so bold as to hope that your profound and consistent attack on the social order
in your country will eventually lead you to a complete emancipation from Ameri-
can exclusiveness and intellectual messiahship so aptly exposed in your pamphlet,
thus enabling you to consider all social progress from a universal proletarian
point of view .
   Now, going back on another phase of the same subject, we find that
generally in the educational profession, commencing around 1926,
chere was forming a movement which resulted in a report frankly
recommending the slanting of history textbooks for a propaganda pat-
tern to further a collective-type of state .
   The document to which I refer is known as Conclusions and Rec-
ommendations .
      49720-54-pt. 1	19
b the American Historical Society . There was a $300,000 grant fr
C~arnegie Corp . for that particular work, a 5-year survey . The i
formation I have bearing on that is contained in the report itself .
don't want to take your time in reading all these names . Would y
like me to give an excerpt to the reporter containing the list of nam
without reading them here all now? Counts is one on the committe
  Mr. HAYS. What is the volume?
  Mr. SARGENT. Conclusions and Recommendations, Report of th
Committee on Social Studies of the American Historical Associatio
They recommend changing the curriculum to promote a collective
type of state and playing down of traditional American values
schoolbooks.
  The CHAIRMAN . What year is that published?
  Mr. SARGENT . The publication of that was in 1934 . The study beg
back in 1926 or 1927 . It is a $300,000 Carnegie grant . I am readi
certain excerpts from the report to show the nature of the conclusion
I wanted to save time by not reading all the list of names .
  Mr. HAYS . You say it is pertinent material and it is part of th
record without being printed?
  Mr. SARGENT . I thought I could have typed off the list of names a
give them to the reporter to insert, instead of reading them now .
  Mr. HAYS . That is all right with me .
  The CHAIRMAN . That will be done .
   (The list of names is as follows :)
Frank W. Ballou, Superintendent of Schools, Washington, D . C .
Charles A . Beard, formerly professor of politics, Columbia University ; auth
   of many books in the fields of history and politics
Isaiah Bowman, director, American Geographical Society of New York ; pre
   dent of the International Geographical Union
Ada Comstock, president of Radcliffe College
George S . Counts, professor of education, Teachers College, Columbia University
Avery 0. Craven, professor of history, University of Chicago
Edmund E . Day, formerly dean of School of Business Administration, Universi
   of Michigan ; now director of Social Sciences, Rockefeller Foundation
Guy Stanton Ford, professor of history, dean of Graduate School ; Universi
   of Minnesota
Carlton J. H. Hayes, professor of history, Columbia University
Ernest Horn, professor of education, University of Iowa
Henry Johnson, professor of history, Teachers College, Columbia University
A . C . Krey, professor of history, University of Minnesota
Leon C . Marshall, Institute for the Study of Law, John Hopkins University
Charles D . Merriam, professor of political science, University of Chicago
Jesse H . Newlin, professor of education, Teachers College, Columbia Universit
   director of Lincoln Experimental School
Jesse F. Steiner, professor of sociology, University of Washington
   Mr. HAYS. Let me ask you this . I want to look at one of these boo
myself. What was the name of that book you mentioned this mornin
that you said did something about creating an air of revolution arou
1917? Do you recall offhand what book you were talking about?
   Mr. SARGENT . I referred to the New York investigation of radical
ism movement, the Lusk Report . It is a work of several volumes,
think 4 or 5 or even 6 volumes, perhaps . It is a very intensive stud
   Mr. HAYS . There is another book you mentioned and I can't reca
the title. I suppose I can get it out of the transcript of this mornin
   Mr. SARGENT . I referred to revolutionary intellectual elites, v
Mises' hook.
  Mr. HAYS. No.
 ner, advocating a change in the educational system, that was 1916,
 General Education Board publication . I don't recall anything else
 offhand .
   Mr. HAYS . As a matter of fact, what occasioned the inquiry is that
 someone came to my office who had been in the audience and asked
 me if I had ever seen this volume and they mentioned the name of it .
 I had not, and I cannot even recall the name of it . I thought perhaps
 I was giving enough of a clue. I may be hazy myself . It will show
 up in the transcript and we will get hold of it then .
   Mr. SARGENT . That is right. This report discusses, among other
 things, educational philosophy for the United States . It says that
 American society during the past 100 years has been moving from an
 individual and frontier economy to a collective and social economy .
 That whatever may be the character of life in the society now emer-
 ging, it will certainly be different, and whether it will be better or
 worse will depend on large measure on the standards of appraisal
 which are applied. It says that continued emphasis in education on
 traditional ideas and values of academic individualism will intensify
conflict and maladjustments during the period of transition . It says
 that if education continues to emphasize philosophy of individualism
 in economy, it will increase accompanying social tensions, and so
 forth . That the educators stand today between two great philoso-
 phies . An individualism in economic theory which has become hos-
 tile in practice to the development of individuality ; the other rep-
 resenting and anticipating the future.
   What these gentlemen propose to do is set forth in their chapter
 at the end talking about next steps . It says that it is first to awaken
 and consolidate leadership around the philosophy and purpose of
education expounded in the report . That the American Historical
Association in cooperation with the National Council on the Social
 Studies has arranged to take over the magazine, the Outlook, as a
social science journal for teachers . That writers of textbooks are to
be expected to revamp and rewrite their old works in accordance with
this frame of reference . That makers of programs in social sciences
in cities and towns may be expected to evaluate the findings . That it
is not too much to expect in the near future a decided shift in emphasis
from mechanics and methodology to the content and function of
courses in the social studies . That is the gist of it .
   This report became the basis for a definite slanting in the curriculum
by selecting certain historical facts and by no longer presenting others,
and brought us to the condition we find ourselves in at the present time .
   I am at a little disadvantage here . I had some Building of America
books which contained some very pertinent material . How much
more time have you to meet this afternoon?
   The CHAIRMAN . About 25 minutes .
   Mr. SARGENT . That is unfortunate . I thought I would be on all
afternon.
   The CHAIRMAN . However, we can quit any time .
   Mr . SARGENT. Logically that particular section belongs at this point .
   I have a few other things I can use . Here another book of
Professor Counts showing the Russian influence on educational lead-
ers at the time . It is called Character Education in the Soviet Union .
It is edited by William Clark Trow, foreword by George S . Counts,
propaganda purposes in the Soviet Union . Here is the first one her
reproduction of an actual Russian poster . The heading, of course,
written in the Russian language . The translation is on the opposi
page, and deals with the subject of international education . T
poster says
  Without educating internationalists, we will not build socialism . Animosi
between nations is the support of counter-revolutions and of capital . It is the
fore profitable and so is maintained . War is needed by capitalists for st
greater enslavement of oppressed people . International education is the w
toward socialism and toward the union of the toilers of the whole world .
   Mr. HAYS . Is that book sponsored by a foundation?
    Mr. SARGENT. It doesn't show on its face . It is printed by A
Arbor Press. The foreword is by Counts, however .
   Mr. HAYS . I know . You may be making a case that Dr . Counts
a Socialist or Communist or something. I don't know about th
But I want to know where the foundations get this book .
   Mr. SARGENT . The foundation tie-in for one is the Internation
Institute in which Counts was in a leadership position and the prefe
ment given to Columbia University and Teachers College by th
Rockefeller interests . They have been the main financial stay of th
institution in spite of all of their policies .
   Mr. HAYS . The Rockefeller Foundation has been the mainstay
Teachers College?
   Mr. SARGENT . I understand it is one of the principal supporti
groups .
    Mr. HAYS. Mr. Sargent, you are pretty evasive . I can see that
have had a good deal of legal training . I ask you a specific questi
and then you say "I understand ." That is one of the nice ways
libel people, isn't it?
   Mr. SARGENT. That is not lying.
   Mr. HAYS . I didn't say lying ; I said libel . You can say I unde
stand so and so is a such and such, and you did not say it ; you j
heard it around some place . That is not evidence . Is that evidenc
 You can't use hearsay as evidence in any court . Apparently you c
bring darn near anything into a congressional hearing .
   Mr . SARGENT . If you want to get down to that, I saw the offici
treasurer's report of Columbia University, and ran my finger do
 the various grants, and I found in my own examination of those r
 ports that very considerable sums of money have been granted
 Columbia University by that foundation .
    Mr. HAYS . That is one thing .
   Mr. SARGENT . I saw that .
    Mr. HAYS . You say it is the mainstay . Then you change it and s
 very considerable amounts . There is a little difference there, is
there?
    Mr. SARGENT . Your committee report says there has been a gre
 deal of preferment by these foundations in favor of certain univers
 ties . That is stated in your own staff report .
    Mr. HAYS. Mr. Reece said that last year when he made his spee
 on the floor, too, but that doesn't necessarily make it true. He belie
 that and he has a right to . Understand, I am sure he is sincere
 that . Just because somebody says so, that doesn't make it so . As
Record gives it a certain air . . There have been cases where someone
put a slant in the Record and made reprints and said, "In the Con-
gressional Record it says ."
  The CHAIRMAN . You keep referring to my speech . Have you gone
back and read any speeches that our late good friend, Gene Cox, made
on the advocacy of the passage of his resolution?
  Mr. HAYS . That is before he got religion .
  Mr. SARGENT . The Rockefeller Foundation is of--
  Mr. HAYS . Just a moment . I don't want to interrupt your conti-
nuity. Let us go back to this book . I have done a little searching
here, and I still don't know the name . Didn't you mention a book
by Frederick Lewis Allen?
  Mr. SARGENT. Only Yesterday . It is a book recounting the times
some years ago . He begins, I think, around the turn of the century .
It is a very readable book . He discusses what was going on .
   Mr. HAYS . Could I have some member of the staff call the Library
of Congress right away and ask if I can get a copy tonight?
   Mr. SARGENT . I am not citing it as authority, but a general dis-
cussion of the time . I think it is pretty accurate . It was general
atmosphere, was the only purpose of referring to it .
   Mr. HAYS . I just want to look at it .
   Mr. SARGENT . It is a newsy type of book about discussing the very
things that were going on and talked of at the time .
   Another poster in this book here about character education in the
Soviet has a pamphlet with two children, a boy and a girl, a Russian
caption, of course, and a translation "Nursery Schools ." It says
  Enter the preschool campaign . Build a new life and organize the children's
parks and playgrounds . Educate the Communist shift .
  That is the beginning of chapter 3 . There is one on the 5-year plan
here. There is one about liquidating the kulak, a man standing with
his hand raised
  Let us eject the kulak from the Kolkhoz .
  It talks about self-activity and what the children can do .          No, this
is not the children but the grownups .
  We cannot consider the question of the development of children's self-activity
and work with the pioneer activity apart from their connection with the new
environment in which we find ourselves and work with the children .
  The point of this is that apparently the obsession at this time had
gone to such a point that it was considered worthwhile for an edu-
cator to bring that material over here, that propaganda, a man con-
nected with a leading school of education, and to write a foreword to
it, and thereby endorse it . The foreword by Counts includes the
statement that a child can be formed, a youth can be bent, but only
the grave can straighten the back of an old man . Also, that the char-
acteristic which distinguishes the Russian Revolution from the revolu-
tion of the past is the attention given to children and youth . They
realized that if the revolution was to be successful in the long run, if
their ideas were really to triumph, if a new society was to displace the
old, then the very character of the people inhabiting the Soviet Union
would have to be profoundly changed .
 ing the coming generation to the theory and practice of communis
Their achievements to date are without human precedent in huma
history .
   Mr. HAYS. In other words, what he said there is that if the revolu
tion is to be a success, we have to indoctrinate these kids, because if
don't indoctrinate them, they might overthrow us some day .
   Mr. SARGENT . That is right . To have a successful revolution, y
must indoctrinate the children against the formerly existing orde
That was his philosophy .
   Mr. HAYS. Do you agree that in order to have a successful revolu
tion you would have to do that? Understand, I am not asking you
endorse a revolution, but I think that
   Mr. SARGENT. I think he has hit it on the head . Of course, th
is one way you run a revolution .
   Mr. HAYS . You and I agree about that .
   Mr. SARGENT . On a revolution you do, yes .
   Mr. HAYS. But now what I am trying to find out, and I am ver
serious about it, was he advocating that we have some kind of revolu
tion and do the same thing here, or was he pointing out that this i
the way the Communists are going to do it if they are successful .
do not know this man at all . Maybe he is terrible . But it seems
me from just that one statement he might have been holding up a re
flag . On the other hand-I am asking you-was he advocating some
thing or was he warning?
   The CHAIRMAN . Would you mind reading again one of the las
sentences there from the foreword about the accomplishment is un
paralleled?
   Mr. HAYS . Read the whole thing .
   Mr. SARGENT . It was in the foreword?
   The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
   Mr. HAYS . The last two paragraphs you read .
   Mr. SARGENT. The exact sentence is
  They realized fully that if the revolution was to be successful in the long run
if their ideas were really to triumph, if a new society was to displace the ol
then the very character of the people inhabiting the Soviet Union would ha
to be profoundly changed. Consequently, as soon as they had made the co
quest of political power, they turned their attention to the stupendous task o
educating the coming generation in the theory and practice of communis
Their achievements to date are without precedent in human history .
   Mr. HAYS . In other words, they did succeed in indoctrinating thes
children and knew no better than communism .
   Mr. SARGENT. I think there is no question about it . I think that
the system that was established. That is the system which by thi
announcement American educators were going to look at in 1935, th
next year.
   Mr. HAYS. I don't think that would be too bad an idea because i
we are going to combat this communism, we are going to have to d
it with ideas and if we are going to be able to educate our people tha
it is bad, I always thought in order to have a successful fight agains
an opponent, you had to know something about him . I never st
away from political meetings of the opposite party unless they ba
me, and in that case I try to send somebody else who can report o
it. I want to know what they are doing .
course on one side, and bringing them home, is no counterbalance
against something else . It automatically produces a slant in the mind .
   Mr. HAYS. Let me say this to you, Mr . Sargent. Along with sev-
eral other Members of Congress of both political parties, I spent some
weeks behind the Iron Curtain and the most effective job I have been
able to do in my life-and I can cite you some people who can testify
to that, I think-in telling them about what a horrible thing it is,
about how it degrades the human, about how there is no freedom of
thought, no liberty of any kind, no human decency, has been because
I was there and saw it. I was in Prague the night they had the big
purge, and they arrested 5,000 people between sundown and sunup,
and I will never forget it as long as I live . I think by knowing that
I can more effectively tell people when I have the opportunity and
occasion about what a horrible thing communism really is .
   Are you saying that no one should find that out? I was there and
they certainly probably as much as they could subjected us to what-
ever propaganda they were able to, but it didn't twist my brain any.
   Mr. SARGENT. If you were there, you saw something which these
people in charge of our educational system with foundation grants
didn't get-the people that joined all these fronts and did all these
other things . The people who don't know and will not listen and not
pay attention to the results of an investigation . That is one of the
cruxes of our problem . Here, for instance
  Mr. HAYS . Now, just a minute.
  Mr. SARGENT. People who have been there have an entirely dif-
ferent slant from people who have not been there who have read cer-
tain literature which they think is all right, and that is all . That is
one of our serious problems here . I know what you mean. I have
talked to people who have been there recently . I talked to Lt . Paul
O'Dowd, Jr., who has received a very distinguished decoration by
the United States Government for his resistance to indoctrination in
one of these indoctrination camps in Korea, and it is his opinion
that there are very serious indoctrination policies in education as
presently conducted, and the matter deserves very serious study from
that standpoint .
  Mr. HAYS . Of course, Mr . Sargent, we will all admit that you can
indoctrinate people to about anything through education . I hate
to dwell on this . I have been one who has never made a very big issue
since I have been in Congress either at home or on the floor because
it so happens that my mother was from the South and my father from
the North, but it seems to me the children in the South have been in-
doctrinated one way about the racial problem whereas in the North,
they have been indoctrinated another . You say it and I admit it
that you certainly can indoctrinate children by education . There is
no question about it .
  Mr. SARGENT . Therefore, we must maintain the integrity of this
system at all hazards, or at least as best we can. The'advice of this
thing is that there has been such a heavy slanting on the one side, and
almost a total-here is an illustration what I mean by the extent to
which a certain element in education has gone completely over-
board . This is an article in the May 1946 issue of an educational maga-
zine, an article on communications . It is the Progressive Education
Russian press is controlled and as the Nazi press is controlled ."
  He said that in a discussion of how we could accomplish more socia
good through the media of communication .
  Now, something is wrong with educational judgment when thing
like that are seriously said.
  Mr. HAYS . Of course we are all against that . On the other hand
it seems to me that you have given quite a serious consideration that
you want to control textbooks to your way of thinking .
   Mr. SARGEANT. Nothing of the kind . I say these books are propa
ganda, and Congress prohibited foundation money for propagand
activity .
   The CHAIRMAN. That quotation which you just read is from
magazine sponsored by an organization supported, or at least in part
by foundation funds?
   Mr. SARGENT . Yes, it is the Progressive Education Association .
   The CHAIRMAN . Have you read Norman Woelfel's book?
   Mr. SARGENT . Molders of the Mind.
   The CHAIRMAN . Yes ; I have . Gentlemen, the literature on thi
thing is voluminous . I could take all of this week and next wee
giving you these things . I am simply giving what I think ar
representative samples .
   Mr . HAYS . Literature, of course, is voluminous on both sides o
this . I think we are agreed on that . You are from California . Di
you ever head of a foundation called the American Progress
Foundation?
   Mr. SARGENT . I don't recall that I have ; no .
   Mr. HAYS . It says here it is in California-and they are braggin
about it-nonprofit corporation, federally tax-exempt, and they giv
their address. Then they have sent a letter out .
   Mr. SARGENT . Can you give the address?
   Mr. HAYS . Yes. Suite 101-B, Highland Arcade, 1540 North High
land Avenue, Los Angeles 28, Calif . ' They have sent out a letter, an
it is all right to me, and apparently to everybody in Congress, an
they say that we are pushing, or we are backing the House Join
Resolution No. 123, copy enclosed, by Representative Ralph W
Gwinn . Congressman Gwinn had a perfect right to introduce thi
resolution . It is proposing an amendment to the Constitution of th
United States relative to prohibiting the United States Governmen
from engaging in business in competition with its citizens . Thi
copy of it says, "Printed for"-this is a copy of the bill .
   Mr. SARGENT. What is the bill about?
   Mr. HAYS . I just read the title to it . You know as much about i
as I do from that.
  Printed for-
I will read it again if you didn't get it . I don't want to cut yo
off .
  Printed for and at the expense of the American Progress Foundation, Lo
Angeles, Calif.-
and they go on to say a nonprofit California corporation federall
tax exempt . That is propaganda, isn't it?
   Mr . SARGENT . I would certainly say it was ; yes . It is influencin
legislation.
    Mr. HAYS . I must refer that to the staff.
    Mr. SARGENT. Unless they have some specific interest . I think,
Mr. Hays, a foundation which happens to have a specific interest in
specific legislation may properly present and defend that interest .
F+,or example, you had all the foundations in the business coming in
voluntarily before the Cox committee and testifying, and they had a
stake in the controversy . If they didn't have a right to come in on
that matter, they would be deprived of their exemption rights by now,
for having been there .
    Mr. HAYS . You may have a point . I don't say this foundation .
shouldn't do that . I don't know. This was just handed to me by
another Member on the floor today, and he said "here is one for your
committee." I am just asking you . As far as I am concerned, let
them push that bill . If it is a good bill, and if they can convince
enough people that is the way we do it under the Constitution, it is
not easy.
    Mr. SARGENT. As a legal matter the distinction is that something
directly within the corporate purpose of an organization they may
do. There is some organization promoting forestry and conservation
and they lobby continuously on that . On general matters, of course,
that is another thing .
    Mr. Kocx . Under the statute it says if a substantial part of their
income is used, and we have to worry during these hearings just
whether we can make a better definition than substantial . If nor-
inally they do perfectly innocuous things and then get off the
beam once, we have a question as to is this right or is it wrong . That
is where the statute has to be interpreted .
    Mr. HAYS . That is an interesting thing to bring u because we have
had a lot of arguments about Rockefeller and this $100,000 a year he
has made available, and the inference has been that it has not been
good . Maybe it has not . I don't know . On the other hand, he gave
a lot of money to a place down here in Virginia called Colonial Wil-
liamsburg, and I expect spent more than he did on this project which
I have been to numerous times, and I think is very good .
    Mr. Kocx. They say that is not foundation .
    Mr. HAYS . No ; he did that . I can't get Mr. Sargent to say, perhaps
he doesn't know, whether this $100,000 a year he keeps talking about
was from Rockefeller himself or the foundation . It is all vague.
    Mr. Kocx . Miss Casey says it was foundation money .
    The CHAIRMAN . Have you reached a stopping place?
    Mr. SARGENT. I think I have, yes .
    The CHAIRMAN. The hour of 4 o'clock has arrived, and the com-
mittee stands in recess until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning .
    (Thereupon, at 4 p . m ., a recess was taken until Wednesday, May 26,
1954, at 10 a . in.)
                   TAX-EXEMPT FOUNDATIONS

                     WEDNESDAY, MAY 26, 1954
                           HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
                       SPECIAL COMMITTEE To INVESTIGATE
                                   TAX-EXEMPT FOUNDATIONS,
                                                     Washington, D . C.
  The special committee met at 10 : 15 a . m., pursuant to recess, in
room 304, House Office Building, Hon . Carroll Reece (chairman of
the special committee) presiding.
  Present : Representatives Reece (presiding), Goodwin, Hays, and
Pfost .
  Also present : Rene A . Wormser, general counsel ; Arnold T . Koch,
associate counsel ; Norman Dodd, research director ; Kathryn Casey,
legal analyst.
  The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order .
  You may proceed, Mr . Sargent.
  Mr. HAYS . Mr. Chairman, I was asking Mr. Sargent informally be-
fore the hearing started if he can find in his notes-I have not been
able to find it, I just got this transcript handed to me as I was coming
over here-I am interested in this book, Only Yesterday, which he
mentioned. I would like to find out exactly what he said about it,
if we could at this point .
         TESTIMONY OF AARON M. SARGENT, ATTORNEY,
               SAN FRANCISCO, CALIF.-Resumed
   Mr. SARGENT . I can't do that without having the transcript or
getting my notes out of the hotel room. I am coming back in any event
for cross-examination after this hearing is completed. I will supply
you with the exact reference .
   I might say at this time my only interest in mentioning the book at
all was that it was talking about what people on the street currently
were talking about at the time .
   Mr. HAYS . Would you hand me the book, sir?
   Mr. SARGENT. Yes . It is a newsy book about the state of public dis-
cussion at the time, and what the people were doing and acting . That
is all ; local color . It is not an authoritative work in the sense of prov-
ing revolution . It said that people were trying out all sort of things .
That is said in that book .
   Mr . HAYS. I think you cited this book to support your contention
that there was imminent danger of revolution around that period .
   Mr. SARGENT. No, Sir, I did not . I said it was being talked about
at the time .
                                                                    295
  Mr. SARGENT. I said there was on the basis of the findings of th
report of the Lusk committee .
  The CHAIRMAN. Will you permit an interruption? As I recall t
statement, the Lust committee reported there was a revolution .
  Mr. SARGENT. Yes, they made very extensive findings. They foun
there was at that time a serious danger for our form of governmen
I did not in any sense use the Allen book as an authority . I don
think Mr . Allen is an authority on the subject .
  Mr. HAYS . You see, Mr. Chairman, that is exactly what I am tryi
to prove . The witness brings in a book and the committee is at
complete disadvantage, because we don't know beforehand what boo
he is going to cite, and we don't get the transcript until the next da
I think the transcript will show he is saying two entirely differen
things about it . He brought the book in . He cited the book . I hav
never heard of the book . I have had a half hour to glance at thi
book, and I want to read a few paragraphs cut of it . I will re
from page 76
  The big red scare was slowly, very slowly dying. What killed it? The real
zation for one thing that there had never been any sufficient cause for such
panic as had convulsed the country .
  I don't know whether this is an authoritative work or not, but th
witness cited it so I thought I would look at it .
  Then on page 52, he talks about the Boston police riots
   The Boston police had a grievance. Their pay was based on a minimum o
$1,100, out of which uniforms had to be bought, and $1,100 would buy migh
little at 1919 prices .
  Then on page 56, in talking about the then Attorney General, h
says :
  Mr. Palmer decided to give the American public more of the same and ther
upon he carried through a new series of raids which set a new record in Amer
can history for executive transgression on individual constitutional rights .
  Then he goes on and is talking about the fanaticism and fervor
and he says on page 58 ;
  Nor did it quickly subside for the professional superpatriots and assorted sp
cial propagandists disguised as superpatriots had only begun to fight . Innume
able patriotic societies had sprung up, each with its executive secretary, a
executive secretaries must live, and therefore, must conjure up new and ever
greater menaces.
  You know that has a faintly familiar ring, doesn't it?
  Innumerable other gentlemen now discovered that they could defeat whatev
they wanted to defeat by tarring it conspicuously with the Bolshevist brus
Big Navy men, believers in compulsory military service, drys, anticigarette ca
paigners, antievolution fundamentalists, defenders of the moral order, bo
censors, Jew-haters, Negro-haters, landlords, manufacturers, utility executive
upholders of every sort of cause, good, bad and indifferent, all wrapped the
selves in Old Glory, and the mantle of the Founding Fathers and allied the
selves with Lenin .
  Of course, he goes on to point out that they tried to ally thei
opponents, as is being done today, with something nasty and dirt
He goes on and I am quoting
  For years a pestilence of speakers and writers continued to afflict the count
with tales of sinister and subversive agitators .
  Elderly ladies in gilt chairs in ornate drawing rooms heard from
secretaries that the agents of the Government had unearthed new radical con-
spiracies too fiendish to be divulged before the proper time . A cloud of suspicion
hung in the air and intolerance became an American virtue .
  This is the author that you brought in .
  Mr. SARGENT. I brought in a specific statement at a specific time .
   Mr. HAYS . I am bringing in some specific statements so we will get
a well-rounded picture .
   The CHAIRMAN . May I be permitted to
   Mr. HAYS. Just a minute . I want to get the whole picture of this
man. He made all sorts of statements, and I am not subscribing
to any .
   Mr. SARGENT. I only said that the discussion at the time publicly
was about this condition . My authority cited was the Lusk Report
of the New York Legislature . That book was not cited as an author-
ity . I do not consider it to be authoritative on whether this con-
spiracy in fact existed . Mr. Allen did not know.
   Mr. HAYS . The point I am making, and I think you made it for me,
Mr . Sargent, is that you can bring in any book, and you can do it
with great regularity, and you can pick out a sentence or paragraph
out of it and make it prove whatever you want it to prove. After I
read a few paragraphs out of the book, you want to disavow any rela-
tionship to it.
   Mr. SARGENT. No.
   Mr. HAYS. It is something that you are not going to vouch for at
all now after we have looked it over .
   Mr. SARGENT. No ; I vouch for the part of that book which states
that the intellectuals were doing all sorts of wild things and discussing
it publicly, and that was the air surrounding the period. That is all
I wanted to say .
   Mr. HAYS . You are going to vouch for part of the book and leave
the rest out?
   Mr. SARGENT. No . I don't have to buy the whole book because he
 tells the truth on one thing . You think it is a pretty good book?
   Mr . HAYS . No ; I don't . I think you brought out an authority that
may have been a little wild in some of the statements he makes . To
further prove that, let me read his subtitles for paragraph 6
  Fair and Warmer Washington . The Helpfulness of Warren G . Harding, Wash-
ington Conference. Harding's Death . The Truth Begins To Come Out . Teapot
Dome and Elk Hill . Who Loaned Fall the Money? Six or Eight Cows . The
Silence of Colonel Stewart and Others . The Testimony of Mr . Hays-
 and will the record please show that is Will Hays-
 The Reticence of Mr. Mellon . The Veterans' Bureau Scandals . Dougherty.
 Who Cares? The Undedicated Tomorrow .
 That is the kind of book it is .
   The CHAIRMAN . If Mr . Hays would be condescending enough to
 permit one interjection, I would like to say that I would not like to
 associate myself with what has been read, and I would sum it all up
 as meaning that anybody who is against Fabian socialism, and all it
 implies, is classified as a superpatriot with white, cloth around him .
   Mr. HAYS . You know something? You didn't disassociate yourself
 with this book yesterday when he was reading paragraphs out of it
as I can find out .
   The CHAIRMAN . No ; I was disassociating myself with the interpr
tation of what you put on what you read .
   Mr . HAYS . Mr. Reece, I put no interpretation whatever . I mere
 read some paragraphs out of the book because I wanted to acquain
you with the kind of books that your witness is bringing in here an
 citing. I am just trying to wake you up .
   Mr. GOODWIN . You had one paragraph there on the Boston poli
strike. Can you find that readily? I am not quite sure I caught i
exactly .
   Mr. HAYS. I just have some pages marked here . I can find it ve
quickly. Page 52. I might say I only read, as I said at the beginning
the first sentence out of that . He goes on. I might in justice to th
fellow say that the Boston police strike fizzled out, and it was bad fo
the public welfare and so on . The man says a lot of things . I
only trying to prove, Mr . Goodwin, that you can't take a book an
read a sentence or two out of it and say it proves much of anything .
   Mr. GOODWIN. Of course, the police strike did not fizzle out .
was ended by the Governor of Massachusetts when he sent a telegra
to the country to the effect that there was no right to strike agains
the public safety by anybody, anywhere, any time, and made Go
Calvin Coolidge President of the United States probably .
   Mr . HAYS. No doubt about it . I remember only two statement
that he made. That one and the one, "I do not choose to run ." Th
was about his total contribution to history.
   The CHAIRMAN._ We will not try to enter into the evaluation of t
services of Calvin Coolidge . I think the services of that great Amer
can speak for themselves.
   Mr. HAYS . I have just one other question, and then you can pro
ceed, Mr . Sargent.
   Do you know Bob Humphrey of the Republican National Com
mittee?
   Mr. SARGENT. No. H-u-m-p-h-r-e-y ?
   Mr. HAYS. Yes .
   Mr. SARGENT . No ; I don't recall the name .
   Mr. HAYS. He has not helped you at all?
   Mr. SARGENT . Not a particle . In fact, no person connected wi
 any political organization' or group has done so as far as I recall .
   Mr. HAYS . I do have one more thing, Mr . Chairman. I want
 state at this time that I talked personally last night to Mr . Edwa
 R . Murrow, and he categorically denies that he has ever in his lif
 been in Russia, regardless of anything you may say to the contrary .
   Mr . SARGENT. I didn't say he was . • I said he signed the prospectu
    Mr. HAYS . You told us yesterday that you heard from good au
 thority that the school was held and these people attended .
    Mr. SARGENT . I didn't say all these people attended . I said I b
 lieved the school was held.
    Mr. HAYS . Mr. Murrow is sending down a statement ; it should
 here today, and when it comes, I expect to read it into the record .
    Mr. SARGENT. I think, Mr. Chairman, in justice to me and the Ame
 ican people, unsworn statements and information regarding telepho
  Mr . HAYS . Mr . Sargent, don't ally yourself with the American
people. In the first place, you are not running this committee, and
what you think has nothing to do with it.
  In the second place, I am of the opinion after your testimony is
made, most of the American people will not ally themselves with you .
I don't want anymore inferences or insinuations out of you . You act
like you are running this thing here, and you are not .
  Mr. SARGENT . No ; I am trying to present a case.
  The CHAIRMAN . That is a question that will be determined when
matters or information are presented as to what the form of presenta-
tion shall be. I think it would be best not to get into it now .
  Mr. HAYS. I think so, too, Mr. Chairman, and I think it would be
well to have an understanding that the witnesses are not to give any
advice on how to conduct the hearings . Just because it is happening
around the Capitol and other places, we don't have to take it as a
precedent.
  The CHAIRMAN . The witness will proceed in order, and the chair-
man hopes that the members of the committee will do likewise .
  Mr . SARGENT . When there was first discussion about the rule for
my making a presentation in full and having questioning afterward,
I volunteered and offered to appear before you for the purpose of
answering questions fully . I want to renew at this time my expres-
sion of my willingness to do so, and say I expect to do that . At such
time and place as you may designate after my testimony is completed,
I will so appear and I will do it voluntarily .
  Inasmuch as this question has been arised about this Frederic Lewis
Allen book, I think something of considerable importance has emerged
from it, and I think this is what it is .
  There is an important difference between what people are currently
thinking or talking or writing about at a given period, as to actual
conditions, and what exists at the time . I want to give you what I
think is a graphic illustration of exactly that .
  I doubt if you can search the literature of the period 1933-36 and
find very much support for the idea that a revolutionary movement
was going on . There was an investigation by a select committee of
this House at the time . The facts on that are contained in the inquiry
regarding the charges of the late Dr . William Wirt, of Gary, Ind . Mr .
Wirt made some very serious charges . I have a copy of them before
me. He asserted--
  Mr. HAYS. Now, then, Mr . Chairman, the witness just got through
objecting about me making a statement or reading anything from
Mr. Murrow . Now he is reading an unsworn statement from some
character that I never heard of before .
  Mr. SARGENT . This is an official record of the House of Representa-
tives, sir, on the case of William A . Wirt .
  Mr. HAYS . Just because it is in the official records of the House of
Representatives doesn't necessarily make it so, and was it sworn to .
That is your point, not mine .
  Mr. SARGENT. It was introduced on the testimony of Dr . William A.
Wirt, and it is a document upon which the House of Representatives
appointed a committee to go into the charges. I have read that record .
  Mr. HAYS . What pertinency does it have to this?
vestigation, a minority report filed stating that it had been suppressed
and those charges were not inquired into .
   Mr. HAYS . Does it have, anything to do with the foundation?
   Mr. SARGENT. It has a great deal to do with the conspiracy situati
I referred to, and I think it should be in the record this morning .
   Mr. HAYS . The New York Times said something to the effect tha
you made a lot of talk about the 1920's and 1930's, and you had no
related it to anything pertinent to this investigation-I believe thos
were the words-or you had not related it to the foundations . Tha
is what I think .
   Mr. SARGENT . I am intending to do that, Mr. Hays . Your sta
here has other information. It is not expected of me to prove th
entire case. I am proving certain phases of the case which are withi
my knowledge .
   Mr. HAYS . Let us use the words "you are attempting to prove ."
   Mr. SARGENT . Very well. This report contained some very seriou
charges having a vital bearing on the safety of the American peopl
It included the statement here-this is a conversation in the presenc
of Dr . William . A. Wirt, an eminent educator of his time-he state
in this document here that he was advised that'he was underestimatin
the power of propaganda which since the First world War ha
deveIo red into a 'science, that they could nialte the newspapers an
magazines beg or -mercy by taking away advertising, by laws t
compel only the unvarnished truth in advertising ; that schools an
colleges could be kept in line by the hope of Federal aid uiitil'the idh
New Dealers` in the schools and colleges had contr?I .o} them .
   The document in question is a part of the official records of th
House in the inquiry into the charges of Dr . William A. Wirt . O
the committee appointed there, the minority was unable to get an
subpena power to bring in the people referred to by Dr . Wirt . The
protested and filed a minority report which is also a document o
record in this House . Those members said they could not join in th
report, and that the committee had not met its responsibility . Tha
the resolution was a coverup, a cowardly effort to smother the issue
presented by the Dr . Wirt letter, that the letter does not present
personal matter, but a broad issue of whether or not there are thos
connected with the administration who are committed to philosophie
of government contrary to the Republic under the Constitution .
   The minority protested that they were denied the right to call
single witness designed by them . They appealed for subpena powe
to Arthur Morgan ; H . A . Morgan ; David Lilienthal, Director of t
Tennessee Valley Authority ; Harold Ickes, Public Administrato
and Harry Hopkins, Federal Emergency Relief Administrator .
have read all of the names referred to in that paragraph . By thei
votes the three members refused to permit these five public official
to be brought before the committee .
   The minority members informed the majority members that i
they were permitted to bring the witnesses before the committee, the
would show the following, and they list a series of chargess here whic
are long, and which I won't read. One was that the Tennessee Vall
Directors had organized a subsidiary corporation with the stock i
those corporations to be owned by the United States Government, an
   Mr. HAYS . What does that have to do with foundations, even assum-
ing that it were true, and as I recall it now, I heard of this fellow,
and he was more or less discredited by many witnesses who testified
directly opposite .
   Mr. SARGENT. One thing is that it would have exposed the Ware
Communist cell in the United States Government which was formed in
the Agriculture Department in 1933 in May . Alger Hiss was in that
cell . Alger Hiss later became the president of the Carnegie Endow-
ment for Peace .
   Mr . HAYS . Put in by the present Secretary of State, Foster Dulles .
   Mr. SARGENT . And defended in a Federal court in the United States
in the city of New York in a trial handled on those charges of espion-
age-rather perjury .
   Mr . HAYS . Mr. Sargent, Alger Hiss is in jail . We know that.
That is where he belongs . The evidence pointed out that and the
Democrats put him there . You have made a lot of inferences which
you admitted yourself against the so-called New Deal Party . The
New Deal Party, as you call it, put Alger Hiss in the penitentiary .
 You are basking in the limelight reflected from a convict .
    Mr . SARGENT. No ; I am not basking in any limelight . I will give
you later the story of the character witnesses of Alger Hiss .
   Mr. HAYS . We don't want the story because there is no pertinency
 to this .
   Mr. SARGENT. I think there is. I am citing this mainly for the
 purpose of proving that there is a vast difference between what is being
currently gossiped and talked about and what actually exists cur-
 rently. There was a very active revolutionary cell in the United
 States Government in the 1930's . The Wirt charges were true, and
 they were suppressed. These ducational conditions we mentioned
 occurred at the very time that Win was aring -t1i~ese' charges within
 the Government. There was a conspiracy and it .was revolutionary
 in its nature . There was a conspiracy forming in 1920 as found by
 the Lusk committee report . Mr. Allen didn't know it .
    Mr. HAYS . Even if that is true, you are getting pretty hard up for
 publicity if you have to rehash that stuff, because all of that has been
 investigated, the facts have been brought out, and you sitting there
 saying so and so was true does not make it true. The fact of the matter
 is that there is a great deal of doubt about the credibility of you at all,
 because you started this hearing off by saying, when I asked you the
 question were you offered the counselship of the Cox committee, "Yes,
 sir ." It is right here in the record . When I pinned you down, you
 weasled considerably .
    Mr. SARGENT. I didn't say "Yes, Sir ."
    Mr. HAYS . Yes, you did say "Yes, Sir ." Don't call me a liar, because
 the record says so .
    Mr. SARGENT. Assuming it was offered makes no difference in the
 present connection .
    Mr . HAYS . It makes a difference as to whether we are going to be-
 lieve what you say or not.
    Mr. SARGENT . May I go on with my testimony?
    Mr. GOODWIN . Why should we not let the witness go ahead with the
 testimony. We are to be the judges of the evidentiary value . In the
      49720-54-pt . 1-20
   Mr . HAYS . Mr. Goodwin, let me say this . I am only trying to ke
the witness talking about something that has a remote relationsh
to the subject at hand .
   Mr. GooDwIN . I understand that .
   Mr. HAYS . I am sorry that you have not been here . I have a gre
deal of confidence in your fairmindedness, and I realize that y
could not be here because of the importance of the Ways and Mea
Committee considering the bill . This witness has a tendency to go o
on all sorts of tangents that have nothing pertinent to do with t
facts . He says right here that he didn't say what the record sa
he said. If he is going to do that, where are we going to stop?
   Mr. SARGENT . You requested me to finish today .
   Mr. HAYS . I am more interested in the principle of truth than sa
ing time .
  Mr. SARGENT. You will have the truth from me, and you will
getting it .
  Mr. HAYS . I didn't get it at the beginning.
  Mr. SARGENT . At the close of the session yesterday, I was asked
question regarding the foundation known as the American Progre
Foundation, a California nonprofit foundation . Reference was ma
to House Joint Resolution 123, a proposal for the amending of th
Federal Constitution to prohibit the Federal Government from enga
ing in business in competition with its citizens . I subsequently co
tacted the office of Mr . Gwinn to determine what the organizati
was. He has some of their letters from there . I am informed th
this is a membership corporation . In other words, it is not the ki
of a foundation I am talking about . The kind of foundation we ha
been discussing here is the section 101 (6) foundation, which ha
merely a board of directors, administers money, and has no gener
membership . Corporations of this type fall under subdivision (
and subdivision (8) is the same basis as the American Civil Liberti
Union, for example. The Revenue Bureau holds them exempt as
their own income, but does not permit deductions by donors on thei
own income-tax returns of money given to them . This is, I thin
quite clearly a sub (8) corporation, and would have the same status
ACLU . I think that is the correct status of it.
  I have a letter here furnished to me which confirms the fact th
the Civil Liberties Union is a subdivision (8) corporation (26 U.
C. A . 101, sub (8), and the Treasury regulation on that is sec . 39 .1
(8) (1) of regulation 118) .
  We were referring yesterday to this book about character educati
in the Soviet Union . One of the committee members, I think it w
Mr. Reece, asked me to read over a paragraph in the foreword by D
George S . Counts. I think Mr. Hays asked a question as well . Th
statement was that as soon as the Soviets had made the conquest o
political power, they turned their attention to the stupendous task
educating the coming generation in the theory and practice of com
munism. There is a very important fact in there which seems
appear wherever these revolutionary movements with education tak
shape . In Russia, for example, it appears to be the case that th
did use the progressive system to start with . They used it to destr
  That is the technique . First you destroy what is . You move in
with force and put in what you want to do, and then you positively
put the mind in a straightjacket and defend that status . It may be
of interest to note that in the February-March issue, 1934, of Pro-
gressive Education magazine, Nucia P . Lodge, who is one of the
translators of some of George Counts' books, and worked on the Rus-
sian books with Counts, wrote an article in which she propounds the
question, Has Soviet Russia repudiated progressive methods?
  Mr. HAYS. When was this written?
  Mr. SARGENT . In January and February 1934 .
  Mr. HAYS . Do you know anything about Dr . Counts at all except
what you read from his books?
  Mr. SARGENT. I have read his writings somewhat extensively . I
know him from books .
  Mr. HAYS . Do you know anything about Elizabeth Bentley?
  Mr. SARGENT. I have heard of her from the newspapers . She testi-
fied on the Alger Hiss hearing .
  Mr. HAYS. She was a Communist at one time.
  Mr. SARGENT. Yes .
  Mr. HAYS . She is now repentant .
  Mr. SARGENT . Yes.
  Mr. HAYS . You have read some things from Dr . Counts' writings
to indicate at least that if he was not a Communist, that he was an
extreme leftwing thinker .
  Mr. SARGENT. He had very extreme views, and he had a profound
influence on the educational system .
  Mr. HAYS . Along about the same time that Elizabeth Bentley was
an active Communist?
  Mr. SARGENT . Yes .
  Mr. HAYS. Do you know anything about his present views?
  Mr. SARGENT. He has written that he has purportedly changed .
The book does not show that he repudiates the right to use the school
system as a political instrument to modify the social order . I have
seen that book.
  Mr. HAYS . If, we had him in here and he swears that he changed
his mind and could bring something to prove that he is an active anti-
Communist, which he, now is, then he would become as sacred as Eliza-
beth Bentley . You cannot accept one repentance without accepting
others.
  Mr. SARGENT. This is not a personal attack on Counts at all . This
is a comment on the damage done on the educational system by con-
ditions of this sort . It is directed squarely to the point that Congress
wishes to do something to make this damage unlikely in the future .
This is not a personal vendetta at Counts or anybody else .
  Mr. HAYS . Thanks to Mrs . Pfost, I found your remarks about the
book. You said
  If you want a quick picture of this revolt of the so-called intellectual group
during the period, you will find that in Frederick Lewis Allen's book, Only
Yesterday, discussion at page 228 . He describes the atmosphere of the period
in very clear terms.
  Mr. SARGENT . I said atmosphere, yes .
page ?
   Mr. SARGENT. No, I am not required to buy the whole of a book b
cause it has one paragraph which seems to be accurate . Quite oft
in the trial of a case you use testimony as an admission from th
defendant. It fits the case perfectly . You don't have to buy the re
of his testimony because you cite a portion of it .
   Mr. HAYS . It has always been among people who knew what th
were doing in research that you had to establish the credibility of the
sources you cite . You seem to want to establish that by picking
paragraph here and there that suits your purpose, and any other con
tradictory paragraph, that guy was wrong about that- `He is on
right when he agrees with me ."
   Mr . SARGENT. I said atmosphere, Mr .+Hays.
   Mr . HAYS . I know what you said .
   Mr. SARGENT. Atmosphere is what was being publicly discussed
the time, and that statement of the atmosphere I think is a correc
statement . That is all I had to say on the point.
   Mr. HAY. Just a minute. I have this here to read .
   Mr. SARGENT. I understood I was to go through with this and
be cross-examined later .
   Mr. HAYS . You get a lot of misunderstandings .
   Mr . SARGENT. Wasn't that the agreement?
   Mr. HAYS. We are getting a lot of agreements here that we bri
these people back later, but I have a sneaking suspicion that this com
mittee is going to run out of money and you are going to get to sprea
your diatribe on the record and go home .
   Mr. SARGENT. That is unfair . I offered at the opening of the hea
ing, and I will be back next Wednesday .
   The CHAIRMAN . Just a minute . The understanding is that at t
conclusion of Mr . Sargent's testimony, and at the next session, he wi
be available for questioning at length.
   Mr. HAYS . Now, Mr. Chairman, there is an issue made here abou
whether or not I am telling the truth .
   The CHAIRMAN . Don't	
   Mr. HAYS . Yes, there has . The man said he didn't say what he sa
and I said he did . I am going to read the record .
  Mr. HAYS . Were you ever offered the counselship of the Cox committee?
  Mr. SARGENT . Yes, sir.
   That is your answer, that is all .
  Mr. HAYS. Do you have any documentary evidence to that effect?
  Mr. SARGENT . Not in my possession . You mean a specific offering of the pos
tion or discussion of my possible employment?
  Mr. HAYS. I asked you a specific question . Were you offered the counselsh
of the Cox committee?
   And then you said
  In substance, yes .
   That "Yes, sir," got sort of wishywashy there.
  It was indicated verbally that my appointment would be looked upon favorabl
The actual tender I do not think was made .
   I know the actual tender was not made . I am preparing to bring
a witness, if the chairman will sign a supena, who will testify flatl
   Mr. SARGENT . Oh, so?
   Mr. HAYS. Yes .
   Mr. SARGENT . All right. Anything of that kind I will answer, and
I will answer fully	
   The CHAIRMAN . The chairman will just state that last statement is
at variance with my information as a member of the committee .
   Mr. HAYS . I would like the record to show that may be true, and I
would not question you at all . But I think the record should also show
that you only attended two committee meetings the whole time so
you probably didn't have very much information about what went on .
   The CHAIRMAN . I hardly think the record will show that .
   Mr. HAYS . I believe it will . You know, we had a debate about that
on the floor, and in the interchange, I got a little enthusiastic and I
said you had only been there once . You asked me to correct that . And
I said, "Well, we will say twice", and you accepted. That is in the
'Congressional Record.
   The CHAIRMAN. I didn't accept that.
   Mr. SARGENT . The foundations were opposed to my employment .
That is a fact.
   Mr. HAYS . Judge Cox in his statement to the Congress was pretty
worked up about the foundations and it hardly seems likely to me
that he would have taken their advice about whom to employ .
   Mr. SARGENT . I say the foundations were opposed to my employ-
.
ment However, I would like to go on with this, if I may . I am here
to conclude today, if I can arrange to do so .
   There was reference in prior testimony to the League for Industrial
Democracy, which is a tax-exempt corporation . I have some addi-
tional information to submit regarding its activities. Here is a letter
bearing the signature of Harry W . Laidler, September 9, 1935 . It is
a photostat. It is addressed, "Dear Friend," and evidently it is one
 of his letters sent out circular fashion to a group of people, and not
 one addressed to an individual . It says
   If you could come into the LID office today you would receive reports of great
productive educational activity in the summer, of an unusually full program for
the fall, but of an empty treasury which threatens to seriously affect our work .
    I am not going to read it, but leave it for the record . There is refer-
=ence to the launching of their plans in high school, building up lecture
circuits and in general carrying on propaganda within the educational
system . It shows still as president of the organization Robert Morss
Lovett, to whom I have referred .
    (The letter is as follows :)
   If you could come into the LID office today you would receive reports of great
productive educational activity in the summer, of an unusually full program
for the fall, but of an empty treasury which threatens seriously to affect our
work .
   The summer report would tell of an exceptionally good June conference on
white collar and professional workers under capitalism. It would bring you
the story of a group of 21 picked college students brought together in the L. I . D .
summer school for 6 weeks of intensive training in field work with union and
unemployed groups, of morning seminars in theory and tactic, of every-day dis-
 cussions of problems common to students from California to the Carolinas . The
 schools built a comradeship which is basic for enduring work in the movement
,on the campus or in the field .
orously pursued. Participation in the Young Congress helped greatly in form
lating a militant program for the nation's youth .
  As to plans for the immediate future-we must launch student organizatio
everywhere and at once, early in the college and high school year. We mus
build up the lecture circuits in new centers . We must arrange various rad
programs . We must complete the pamphlets begun in the summer. These a
preliminary to establishing a new research service which we believe will doub
the amount of research produced and reach a much larger audience than we
have had in the past. The Chicago office, with a plan for extended work i
the metropolitan area, is ready to reopen . The emergency committee for strike
relief will be called upon to renew its efforts on behalf of the sharecroppers wh
are about to undertake a cotton pickers strike .
  In addition to our major program, the L . I . D . continues its work of activ
cooperation with other groups . By arrangement with the New Beginning grou
which carries on underground work in Germany, one of its leaders is to come
America under our auspices. With several defense organizations we are unde
taking a campaign to widen the support for Angelo Herndon ; we are active
the Sacramento defense committee to fight the criminal syndicalism laws
California . Other joint efforts find the L. I . D. actively participating.
  The disastrous effects of an empty treasury are obvious . Won't you ma
the conltinuation of L. I . D . work possible by sending in a contribution or pled
now? $9,000 . is necessary if we are to meet the minimum requirements of t
program for 1935, which in the face of social needs is at best adequate . Upo
your immediate response depends the future of the L . I. D.
  Sincerely yours, Norman Thomas, Harry W . Laidler.
   Mr. SARGENT . I have some publications of this organization, sho
ing their educational work. One is entitled, "Socialism in the Unit
States, a Brief History, by Dr . Harry W. Laidler ." The copyrig
date is 1952 .
   I have one entitled "A Housing Program for America ." I don't s
a copyright date on this.
   Mrs. PFOST . Mr. Sargent, is the printing paid by the foundation
   Mr. SARGENT. This organization itself is tax-exempt . I don't kno
whether or not a foundation paid for either the printing or the
pamphlet . Your committee will have to find out what has been t
source of revenue of this organization.
   The CHAIRMAN . Will you give the name of it again?
   Mr. SARGENT . The League for Industrial Democracy . This on
I don't see a copyright date . I can't peg the date for you .
   Mr. HAYS . If they are under section 8 you are talking about wheth
they are tax-exempt or not, they can engage in propaganda .
   Mr. SARGENT . But Congress has a right to consider whether it i
wise to continue such a privilege when it has been used in effect
continue a lobby.
   Mr. KocH . This is the one that is under 8 . It was Civil Liberti
that you used before . This is under 6 .
   Mr. SARGENT . Here is one, Toward a Farmer-Labor Party, again
by Harry W. Laidler. The copyright date is 1938 .
   Mr. Kocii. Mr . Chairman, are these just submitted for the record
but not to be printed?
   Mr. SARGENT. No, I just am referring to the fact that such a publi
cation was made at the time .
   The CHAIRMAN . They are submitted for the record but not fo
printing.
   Mr. SARGENT . No. In fact, these are my personal copies . I want
take them away. The Library of Congress has them all . They ar
copyrighted publications . Here is a pamphlet called, Russia-De
copyright is December 1939 .
   Mrs . PFOST. How widely circulated were these?
   Mr . SARGENT . I think rather extensively . I don't known too much
about that . They have an office in New York City out of which they
disseminate various things . The address given here is 112 East 19th
Street, New York City . I personally went to that office within the
last year or two, I don't recall the exact date, and I purchased some
publications of the British Fabian Society of Great Britain . I have
three right here. One is called, National Coal Board, by G . D . H.
Cole, revised edition .
   Mr . HAYS . Mr. Sargent, have you made any investigation into the
Ku Klux Klan along about this period? You are back in that period,
and I wonder if you think it was good or bad?
  Mr. SARGENT. Is that a tax-exempt organization?
  Mr. HAYS . Depending which State it was in, it was something .
  Mr . SARGENT . I know nothing about it, and I would like to proceed
with my testimony .
  Mr. HAYS . Do you think it was bad?
  Mr. SARGENT I would like to proceed with my testimony .
  Mr. HAYS. What you would like has no bearing.
  Mr. SARGENT . I think it is a bad organization . May I proceed with
my testimony?
   Mr. HAYS . You have been more than arrogant, and you can keep
on going that way, but if I have some questions to ask, get it straight
I. am going to ask them.
  The CHAIRMAN . Mr. Hays, we must have some decorum here, and
bringing up the Ku Klux Klan is evidently done for
  Mr. HAYS . No, it is not . It is right in the book that the witness
submitted . I will read it for you.
  Mr. SARGENT . I didn't cite any such thing.
  Mr. HAYS. It is in your book . You brought the book in .
  Mr. SARGENT. Must we talk about the whole book?
  Mr. HAYS . It might be more interesting than a lot of stuff you
are talking about .
  The CHAIRMAN. The Ku Klux Klan has nothing to do with this in-
vestiation by any stretch of the imagination . As Members of Con-
gress,' let us accept our responsibility and proceed with this study
in as orderly fashion as possible . Let us not make inferences on
anybody .
  Mr. HAYS . Mr. Reece, I am not making any inferences, but if you
want any arguments about accepting our responsibilities as Members
of Congress, I am willing to argue with you . I think we have a respon-
sibility as Members of Congress not to bring in any obscure character
assassins and dignify them by letting them use this as a forum to as-
sassinate right and left, such people as Senator Douglas, and Mr .
Edward R . Murrow. Even this witness will never remotely get the
prominence they have by even trying to assassinate their character,
although he may get cheap publicity out of it. There is no inference
there. I said it straight .
  Mr. SARGENT. I read the entire list of names . Mr. Murrow's name
about the middle. I gave it no special reference .
  Mr. HAYS . And you mentioned a former Member of the United
States Senate from North Carolina . If the chairman was so inter-
   Mr . SARGENT . I am glad I have not cited the Encyclopedia Bri
tanica because then we would have to discuss all the articles .
   Mr . HAYS . I have no doubt from your attitude you are an authori
on all the subjects .
  Mr . SARGENT . I purchased these pamphlets in the League of Indu
trial Democracy in New York City . I gave the title . It is about t
national coal board . The copyright date on that is September 194
and a revised edition January 1949 . It was purchased by me su
sequent to that at that office .
   I have another Fabian tract here, this is No . 288, entitled, "Rear
ruent-How Far?" It says that it contains speeches at a Fabian co
ference in the summer of 1951 . The address given is Fabian Publ
cations, Ltd ., 11 Dartmouth Street, S . W . 1 . I presume that mea
London .
   Mr. HAYS . Mr . Chairman, I would like to make an observation th
he keeps talking about the Fabian Society and you said the Ku Kl
Klan had no relevance to this hearing . I will tell you what it is . Bo
are dead as the dodo bird ., so you can compare them on one basis . O
was an extreme left-wing outfit and the other extreme right-wi
Fascist outfit . If we are going to have a course in ancient histor
we ought to have all phases of it .
   Mr. SARGENT . Here is a 1950 pamphlet, a very recent document
the League for Industrial Democracy . It reveals the political part
the organization by the panel of speakers . The program listed
Freedom and the Welfare State Today, a Symposium, by Oscar
Ewing, Herbert H . Lehman, George Meany, Walter P . Reuther a
it says "and others" "Harry W . Laidler, editor ." Would you li
me to read the names of the others?
   Mr . HAYS . I think you have enough prominent names in there to
least convince the committee that you heard of a few prominent peop
   Mr. SARGENT . I would like to know whether you wish the oth
names read .
   Mr. HAYS . It is immaterial to me .
   Mr. SARGENT. If you don't want them read, I am not desiring t
particularly .
   I have another one from the League for Industrial Democracy . T
is 1949 . It is entitled "Education and the Social Order," by Jo
Dewey, showing the organization sponsorship of the John Dew
philosophy .
   Here is a pamphlet which is copyrighted 1945, entitled "For
Years of Education, a Symposium ." It says on the cover "By Upt
Sinclair and many others ." The participants here on the inside of t
title page are, and I am reading them in order, column 1, and th
column 2, Upton Sinclair, Eleanor Roosevelt, Arthur Creech Jone
Frank Scott, Charles G . Bolte, Wallace J. Campbell, John L. Chil
Julius Hochman, Harry W. Laidler, Algernon Lee, Newbold Morri
Harry A . Overstreet, Mark Starr, Norman Thomas, Theresa Wolfso
and it says, "and many others ."                                     #
   Mr. HAYS . Let me ask you right there, Could you give me a
semblance of a reason why you read those names? What is t
pertinence?
certain type. .
   Mr. HAYS . Do you mean to infer that it brings in the wrong kind
of political people?
   Mr. SARGENT . The statute makes no difference between good or bad
propaganda . It says organizations under this exemption shall not
carry on propaganda .
   Mr. HAYS . This foundation you are the head of, if you ever get any
money, what kind of propaganda are you going to carry -on?
   Mr. SARGENNT . We are not going to carry on any propaganda at all .
We are going to support the Constitution of the United States . We
are going to study factually the conspiracy threatening the United
States Government, and give full publicity to it by educational mate-
rials to get the truth to the people .
   Mr. HAYS . You say you are going to get the truth to the people?
Do you think anybody might think at all that what you have to say
might be propaganda?
   Mr. SARGENT . I think you will undoubtedly disagree with me, Mr .
Hays . I am expecting that .
   Mr . HAYS . Let me ask you this . Do you think because Eleanor
Roosevelt and Norman Thomas and Newbold Morris all attended the
same meeting, that is some sort of discredit, we will say, to Mrs.
Roosevelt?
   Mr. SARGENT . I am not talking about discredit . I am saying the
activity is political in nature and the prominence of all these political
people establishes the fact .
   Mr. HAYS . You are not inferring that there is any left wing stuff
about it ?
   Mr. SARGENT . This is an organization having a so-called liberal
flavor to it .
   Mr. HAYS. So the very association gives a bad connotation.
   Mr. SARGENT. I am not talking about anything they do which is not
political I am not attacking any individuals . I am saying they
         .
were there . You are not authorized to infer such a statement from me.
   Finally, there was a meeting of the John Dewey Society-not the
John Dewey Society, the League for Industrial Democracy ; this bears
the copyright date 1950 . It is a meeting held -as a tribute to John
Dewe . The people present at that meeting, according to the state-
ment Mere, were John Dewey, David Dubinsky, Irwin Edman, Frank
D. Fackenthal, Felix Frankfurter, Alice Hoffman, John Haynes
Holmes, Hu Shih, William H . Kilpatrick, Harry W . Laidler, William
Pepperell Montague, Joy Elmer Morgan, Jawaharlal Nehru
   Mr. HAYS . You have heard of him?
   Mr. SARGENT. I didn't see the last name first . Ralph Barton Perry,
Walter Reuther, Rebecca Simonson .
   Now, my next item has to do with a project financed by the Rocke-
feller Foundation . I have a photostat of the announcement here,
`Building America . The general education board of the Rockefeller
Foundation provided over $50,000 to assist in the development of
`Building America,' now endorsed by outstanding educators in every
State, distributed by the Grolier Society, Inc ." That is a publishing
concern in New York.
 States got for this $50,000 gift from the Rockefeller Foundation .
 have here a book out of the Library of Congress, it is Volume I
 Building America .
    Mr. HAYS . Are you just going to read a paragraph or two out of i
    Mr. SARGENT . I will read as much as you want . I am discussi
 one article here.
    Mr. HAYS . .Nobody seems to care about the taxpayers and all t
 stuff that they let you put in the record that we will have to pay f
 printing . You might as well read it all to get a true picture .
    Mr. SARGENT. I don't have time. I will show you the samples .
    Mr. HAYS . You don't work ; do you? You have no job ; do yo
 You have lots of time ; don't you?
    Mr. SARGENT . I am here at $6 a day at a sacrifice . I think that
 immaterial .
    Mr. HAYS . That is not quite as much as $125 a day that you offer
 your services .
    Mr. SARGENT . Mr . Hays, I would like to go on without bei
 insulted.
    This is a sample of the material as it was issued . This book her
 volume II, contains a series of units discussing various topics . T
 topics are articles, Our Constitution, Safety, Clothing, Social Sec
 rity, Steel, We Consumers, Conservation, and Movies .
   The original publications in pamphlet form one unit at a time, su
 as I have here, the one on Russia-China, rather-I have one o
 Russia. They were published serially and when the stack was com
 pleted, they would combine them in order in the shape of a book .
   The publication in question originated with -the Society for Cu
 riculum Study, an organization established at Ohio State Universi
   Mr. HAYS . That is really a leftwing institution . Senator Brick
is one of the trustees out there .
   Mr. SARGENT . I said Ohio State University originated it .
   Mr. HAYS . They don't even allow
   Mr. SARGENT . It has an interesting history which I would like
trace .
   Mr. HAYS . Don't talk while I am going . You brought in Ohi
State in a nasty way, as you have a cute habit of doing . It happe
that is the principal university in my State, and it so happens that
is generally considered to be a very conservative institution with m
of the general political thinking of Senator John W . Bricker, of Ohi
on the board of trustees . Some of the members of the board of tru
tees were appointed by Senator Bricker . I don't want any inferen
there-and I will use this term very generously-no neophyte wh
knows nothing about education and has obviously proved it in 3 days
is going to slander Ohio State University . You may slander som
people and some institutions, but let us keep the record straight o
that.
   The CHAIRMAN . The Chair wishes to state on his own account tha
he doesn't consider that there is any slur attached to Ohio State Uni
versity. I share the same high regard for Ohio State University a
does the gentleman from Ohio . I think that the record standing o
Mr . Sargent, who is before the committee, speaks for itself .
_He says that himself.
    The CHAIRMAN . It is all in the record at the beginning of his testi-
  mony in order to qualify him. If you looked at yesterday's statement
  you will find it.
    Mr. HAYS . I looked it over when I qualified him, and I qualified him
  at the go that he weaseled out of the truth at the beginning . If that
  is the qualification we want to have, let us have it understood .
    The CHAIRMAN . The courts are available if he has weaseled on the
  truth .
    Mr. HAYS . Don't worry, I will submit it to Mr . Brownell, and if
  he ever gets done with the McCarthy hearings on perjury, maybe he
  will have time to look at this one . I think he is going to be a busy
 :man for a long time .
    Mr. SARGENT. If you will make a statement off the floor of Congress,
  I will take care of it .
    Mr. HAYS . I will make a speech in my district on Sunday, and I
 -will. have a lot to say about you, and it will all be off the floor of Con-
  gress, and I will submit you a copy .
    Mr. SARGENT . This article to which I refer is entitled "Our Con-
  stitution ." It contains the elements of the plan to pack the United
  States Supreme Court. I personally examined the copyright docu-
.ments in the Federal Copyright Office here in Washington, and dis-
  covered that the publication of this document was Octcber 1936 . In
  short, this material got into the hands of teachers, and presumably
  pupils in public schools, before the November 1936 Presidential elec-
-.tion, and several months before the bill was introduced in February
  1937 to pack the Federal judiciary .
    Here are some of the statements contained in this article . This
  is for classroom use and discussion . The publication originally was
  for the secondary school level . It has since been graded down to
 'be used in elementary schools when the children do not have an
  understanding sufficient to deal with the issues propounded here . It
  propounds a question whether the Constitution as drawn up serves
  the needs of the American people and what changes have been made
  in the Constitution, and the Supreme Court decisions on it . Whether
 further changes should be made in the Constitution to serve the needs
 of the American people.
    With your permission I have a copy of the same thing which is
  marked . I would like to read from my copy, because it will save
  time. I have the same article .
    Mr. HAYS . If it is all the same with the committee, I would like
 .you to read from the Library of Congress copy .
    Mr. SARGENT . Then I will use my copy to identify the passages and
 then turn over and read it .
    The CHAIRMAN . It doesn't make any difference which copy you
 Tread from .
    Mr. HAYS . It may not to you, but it does to me .
    Mr. SARGENT. I am very glad to do that . There is a discussion
  here about Shea's Rebellion, and the weakness of Congress before
  the adoption of the Federal Constitution . It says that the States
  appointed delegates to a convention . That Samuel Adams, a friend
  of liberty, was absent from the convention . That Patrick Henry
   That nearly all the men who gave their great talent to the job were capable
well-to-do lawyers, planters, merchants, bankers, or businessmen . Some of the
had lent money to carry on the Revolution. Many held continental bonds an
paper money which were almost worthless, but which they wanted the ne
 government to make good . None of the delegation was a city mechanic or
 small farmer who owned little or no property .
  It says on page 7 that the convention held together by the strengt
of a hair only because the delegates were agreed on one main point
  They wanted a strong government to protect property against the commo
man who owned little more than the strength and skill of his hands .
  There is a cartoon on two pages here, 8 and 9, portraying the func
tion of the Supreme Court as the killing of legislation . The instanc
given here is the 16th amendment, the income-tax amendment . Wit
the people demanding an income-tax law, the veto . Here in th
cartoon is a scroll of paper portrayed as a man standing before th
Supreme Court and pleading, and on the other side he lies on th
floor dead, and it says here
  Killed in test case before Supreme Court by a 5-to-4 decision .
   Mr. HAYS. Could you identify the cartoon, where it first appeared,
and so on?
   Mr. SARGENT. It doesn't contain any name here . It is just in th
book.
   Mr. HAYS . It must have been in some newspaper or somewhere .
   Mr. SARGENT. I don't know where it was . It may have been dra
for the purposes of the book . I have no knowledge one way o
the other.
   On pages 10 and 11 there are more scenes . Here is a picture
the Black Legion with two men dressed in the robes of the Blac
Legion.
   Mr. HAYS . You think kids should not know that?
   Mr. SARGENT. They should have an honest presentation of both side
and at an age when they can understand it .
   Mr. HAYS . Probably the only way we could get an honest present
tion would be for you to write one . Why don't you write one an
see if you can get it printed .
   Mr. SARGENT . On page 24, there is what is called the New Deal score
listing the various prominent cases at the time, the TVA case, th
Gold Clause case, Hot Oil, and various other decisions . Then w
have here on page 26, the statements of what the liberals propose
 and I will read them all
  1 . Have Congress pass an act requiring at least a 6 to 3 vote in the Supre
Court to declare any Federal law unconstitutional .
  2 . Have Congress propose a sweeping amendment which would make it con
stitutional to pass any law, providing for the general welfare for poor peopl
  3. Compel all justices to retire on pensions when reaching the age 70 . (A bi
which allows Supreme Court Justices over 70 years of age to retire on full p
if they so desire has been recently passed by Congress .)
  4 . Add justices to the Supreme Court, in this way making it more responsi
to the will of the people .
  In short, the propaganda of these agencies with foundation ai
had reached the point where they were advocating court packin
and were putting it in the American public-school system .
the Congress has a right to examine if it is considered wise to do so .
I will refer to the NEA.
   Mr. HAYS . Would you mind if I asked you a question about the
membership of the NEA ?
   Mr. SARGENT . If you wish.
   Mr. HAYS . Am I right in saying that the membership of the NEA
comprises about every primary and secondary schoolteacher in the
United States?
   Mr. SARGENT . A very large membership, yes . They have little or
no control over the actions of the people at the top .
   Mr. HAYS. They probably know more about that than you do.
   Mr. SARGENT . I would be reluctant to believe they did in view of
some of the activities we find . The National Education Association
later took over this publication, Building America, and sponsored it
actively and sold it. They sponsored it for use in California in a
proceeding in which I participated, and where charges made by the
 Sons of the American Revolution and represented by me were sus-
tained and held to be completely with foundation . The charges had
 to do with a special edition of Building America, three books . There
 was 1 book for the seventh grade, and 2 books for the eighth grade.
These books were compiled by taking certain of these Building Amer-
 ica pamphlets, and publishing them in a predetermined order . When
you see the order in these books, you find what you have here is a
stacked deck .
   The first book in the seventh grade, before children have anything
in the way of teaching, or did have in our school system at the time,
in American history, is devoted to China . This article is written in
effect according to the Owen Lattimore line, involving the betrayal
of American interests in China . A committee of the California Leg-
islature was appointed to investigate that matter, and they found just
exactly that .
    I will read you what they said about this Building America unit
on China, or a portion of it . I will leave the pamphlet with you for
further study :
   This book is peculiarly useful to the Communists as a medium to further dis-
seminate the current party line concerning conditions in China .
   That was the finding of a California legislative committee on this
article .
   The next article had to do with Soviet Russia, indoctrination on
that score . It is an obvious piece of propaganda . It begins on the
first page with a question propounded to Stalin :
   Are you going to try to communize the United States?
   Mrs . PFOST. Is that in the large book? You are quoting now from a
pamphlet .
   Mr. SARGENT. This is in the book, yes. I will read from the book
itself. It is the same thing. This is the California edition I have
here of the book on Russia . The second unit is Russia .
   Mr. HAYS. Is the California edition different?
    Mr. SARGENT. No, it is identical . This is merely the California
stacked deck of the original . It was arranged in a propaganda man-
ner to make it more effective .
NEA?
  Mr. SARGENT . The NEA I understand sponsored the publication i
its present form for California use .
  Mr. HAYS. You understand that
  Mr. SARGENT . They did .
  Mr. HAYS. All right .
  Mr. SARGENT . I was present in the legislative hall in Sacramento
Calif., when a letter was read from the National Education Associa
tion in Washington urging the legislative committee to sustain t
books which were these books I have before me now, and I am testi
fying from . This is for seventh graders at a highly impressionab
age, and propounds this question supposed to have been answered b
Stalin whether he is trying to communize the United States . Th
answer
  Of course not-
was followed by the question
  Are you going to try to turn the Soviet Union into a democracy?
   Mr. HAYS . What was the answer to that question?
   Mr. SARGENT. It is not answered . The next sentence said
  The truth of this story is far less important than the point it makes .
  The article traces the course of the Russian Revolution . Here o
page 78. is a discussion of one-party government . The first paragrap
  The 1936 constitution begins by stating that the U . S . S . R . is a Socialist sta
of workers and peasants . The land is the common property of the people w
also own the means of production, distribution, and transportation . It contai
all the famous fredeoms, freedom of speech, press, assembly, and conscience .
   Mrs. PFOST . Mr. Sargent, what years were these textbooks used i
the California schools?
   Mr. SARGENT . They were actively proposed in 1946 .
  Mrs . PFOST. Are they still being used in California?
   Mr. SARGENT. No, they were never used because the legislature re
fused to appropriate the money . The Superintendent of Public In
struction denounced the legislature for refusing to furnish the mone
to buy these books and continued to carry on an agitation to attemp
to force them in our schools. They had been literally compelled
legislative process to refrain from putting these books in the school
of California .
  Mr. HAYS. Let me ask you this. You read what the Soviet consti
tution purports to say and probably it does say that . I don't know,
never read it, but does it anywhere in that volume say that they hav
not lived up to what the constitution says?
  Mr. SARGENT . It contains a few statements which are claimed to tak
the curse off the thing, but the net weight is propaganda in that di
rection.
  Mr. HAYS . But you are not reading any of the statements in whic
they might point out that although the Soviet Government says so an
so, it does such and so else?
  Mr. SARGENT . It contains some weasel words on the other side, ye
I have not time to read the entire publication . It is here for you t
look at .
   Mr. HAYS. You ought to be an expert on that .
expert. Y have right here before me the legislative committee report .
So you don't have to take my word .
   Mr. HAYS. It that the Tenney report?
   Mr. SARGENT. No, the Dilworth committee, a committee of high
 standing operating since 1946, and has rendered to date 12 reports, in-
cluding the situation at Pasadena, which has been grossly misrep-
resented by the National Education Association .
   The CHAIRMAN . I would be interested in its evaluation .
   Mr. SARGENT . The evaluation on this Russian article in the third re-
po~rt of the Senate Investigating Committee on Education of the
California Legislature, this is known to us as the Dilworth committee .
 Senator Nelson Dilworth of Riverside County, Calif ., is its chairman.
The discussion on the Russian article commences at page 78 and it
says :
   If any book in the Building America series were examined for Communist
propaganda, this would be the most natural target . Assuming that some of the
writers who had to do with the drafting of the material for this particular
 volume wanted to say nice things about the Soviet Union and subtlely play up
the good points of Marxism and play down the worst features, and assuming fur-
ther that they were quite aware of the probability that this book would be the
first to go through a critical examination : How would they proceed?
   In the first place, there is always propaganda through the omission from
text material of objectionable topics . An example of this has already been seen
in the volume of China, in the omission of mentioning the very solid ties be-
tween the Chinese Communist Party and the Kremlin . Then there is the use
of the illustration . This is a particularly effective technique in books of this sort,
designed for use by grammar-school children who are prone to pay more atten-
tion to the many photographic pictures than to the comparatively dry text .
Thus all the Russian women are robust, sturdy, well-fed, well-dressed, and ap-
pear to have been freshly scrubbed .
   Every field is lush with grain or corn ; every barn is bursting with hay ; the
people are smiling and happy. None of these Soviet citizens appear to be afraid
of the secret police, the purges, exile to the salt mines or party discipline . The
scarcity of necessary materials bothers them but little ; stores are shown dis-
playing flowered yardage materials, there are pictures of gay ballerinas in the
theaters, traveling shops serving the collective farmers in the fields, church
services to dispel the silly notion that there is anything athiestic about these
carefree Marxists .
   Among other things this analysis of the legislative report lists the
front organizations of some of the authors of reference material in
these books, among them Anna Louise Strong, Albert Rhys, Allen
Roberts . The analysis of this particular unit showed among other
things that the reference materials were practically study lists to
indoctrinate teachers in communism .
  The CHAIRMAN . Earlier you quoted from a California book a state-
ment to the effect that the Russian constitution guaranteed the four
freedoms, freedom of thought, freedom of speech, and so forth. Was
that quoting from the Russian constitution, or was that a statement
contained in that book on the author's responsibility, in which case it
would be purely propaganda?
  Mr. SARGENT . The particular statement there in the text here is
not in quotes . The part in quotes in that paragraph is simply this
"Socialist state of workers and peasants ." The rest purports to be a
statement of what the Russian constitution contains.
  Mr. HAYS . May I see it?
  Mr. SARGENT . Yes .
turbing to me unless there is some satisfactory explanation of it .
   Mr. HAYS . There are some things . The constitution recognized t
Communist Party and forbids the formation of any other politic
organization . It defines the party as "the leading core" and tho
are quotes, and the direct nucleus of all organizations . It goes
to say that many minor positions in the Government are held by no
party members . However, since the party is the leading core in t
organization it is doubted whether a candidate of whom the par
disapproves could be elected to the office .
   Mr. SARGENT . And you are expecting a seventh grade school chi
to evaluate material like that without studying history . I said it
propaganda, because of the grade level .
   Mr. HAYS . Understand, I am not saying that the Building Ameri
books are all right . I don't know anything about them . I know th
have been the subject of a great deal of controversy . The point I
making is-and I have never seen one until this minute-there are
or 3 statements that might be a little derogatory about the Comm
nists.
   Mr. SARGENT . There are some statements as a clever attempt
take the curse off the propaganda load in the books, yes . The Ca
fornia committee also found that the photographs in here came fr
SCFOTO, which is the Soviet propaganda agency . They also not
in here
   Mr. HAYS. Seriously, let me ask you a question, and I am ve
serious about this. Presuming, and I assume you think we shou
teach our children something about Communist Russia-I mean
can't say it does not exist-how would you go about it? I am ve
serious, and I want to tell you why . I got a letter the other day fr
a teacher in my district, and he said
  I am writing to you because I have to teach something about Russia and
Communist system-
and he said-
I have heard you speak about being behind the Iron Curtain and what it d
to people . I would like to have some material on that, but-
he said, and this is the significant thing-
I am afraid to write to the Russian Embassy or to any place else to get even th
side of it to show what kind of propaganda they put out, because in the litt
town I live in, if I got a letter from them, I would be immediately suspect .
   In other words, the poor guy wanted to get hold of some of th
propaganda so he can show the children how they indoctrinate peopl
and there is no freedom and he is afraid . How would you do it?
   Mr. SARGENT . I would obey the statutes of California which provi
that it is unlawful for a teacher to advocate communism, that it
allowable to teach truthfully and factually the subject at a grade lev
where the pupil has a proper foundation and is able to understand
   Mr. HAYS . Mr. Sargent, that is no answer .
   Mr. SARGENT. It is . I would do exactly that. I would not put
in an elementary school .
   Mr. HAYS . Forget that . How are you going to teach them about
The teachers now are afraid to mention the word . You can't fight
evil like communisim by saying it does not exist .
doesn't know enough about communism in Soviet Russia to ade-
quately teach the students, I think ought to be given another exami-
nation.
   Mr . HAYS . Mr . Reece, that is a nice statement . I don't mind you
engaging in a little pleasant demogoguery . I am sure that will read
good down in Tennessee . How is the average American teacher
going to know much about Russia or anything else unless he reads
some books. He is not going to stand before the class and say, "I
am an authority on Soviet Russia ; it stinks . We will go on to
England ."
   The CHAIRMAN . The average American teacher today is a college
graduate and a large percentage of the teachers today are graduate
students in some phase, and they have had a wide opportunity to study
every reasonable facet of education and American history, or at least
even in the distant era when I was teaching school that was to a-very
large degree the case . I don't minimize the problem that you raise
there, however. The teacher does have an important responsibility .
   Mr. SARGENT. We have a great educational need there, Mr. Hays,
which should be met. It is the opinion of many that the place to
start is to form a good course of study and to start aiding the educators
who are of the same turn of mind to understand what this is, to devise
the teaching material and do a positive job . I am all in favor of that
being done.
   Mr. HAYS. Is that supposed to be a geography book you are reading
from?
   Mr. SARGENT . This is social studies . You have been talking about
social studies and foundations' support for them . This is social
studies as received by the people of California by the gift of the Rock-
efeller Foundation and others .
   Mr . HAYS . Do you have any textbooks in the social studies that
you would recommend as being all right?
   Mr . SARGENT . I am not familiar with all the books they are using .
 Of course, we have . As social studies, I think the social studies con-
 cept has proved to be a vehicle for propaganda, and is erroneous.
 Many believe that history should be taught factually as a subject, and
 the other subjects should be taught factually, and not mixed in this
 form.
   Mr. HAYS. In other words, you think you ought to teach history by
 teaching them that in 1492 Columbus discovered America, and in 1776
 there was a revolution, and in 1860 Lincoln was elected President of the
 United States, and in 1861 some nasty southerners started a rebellion
 against the country. Pardon me, Mr . Chairman . That is factual,
 but do you think that will be valuable?
   Mr . SARGENT. Did I say that?
    Mr . HAYS . I am trying to find out what you mean .
    Mr. SARGENT. I didn't say that. I said history should be taught
 as a factual subject.
    Mr . HAYS . Is that what you mean by factual?
    Mr . SARGENT . No ; I do not mean that . I mean the teaching of sig-
 nificant movements which have occurred throughout American his-
 tory, the movement which resulted in the Declaration of Independ-
 ence, and so .on.
       49720-54-pt . 1-21
that movement?
  Mr. SARGENT . Yes. It was a very discriminatory and disreputab
organization .
  Mr. HAYS . What about the Whig Party? What would you s
about it?
  Mr. SARGENT. I think a discussion of the Whig Party would be
very profitable thing, particularly now . The history of the Wh
Party is very significant .
  Mr. HAYS . What about the background and what caused the brea
up of the Whig Party? Would you let them find out anything abo
that, or just say it was not there any more? .
  Mr. SARGENT . At the proper grade level I definitely would .
  Mr. HAYS . Somebody somewhere along the line is going to di
agree with something that is said . No teacher in a classroom can ke
track of everything that every student says, and somebody will di
agree, and some organization will say, "My goodness, look what th
are letting them say in school ."
  Mr. SARGENT . I am talking about the blackout in history in Cal
fornia and no history books furnished in the department of educati
from 1928 until almost 1940 . They were following the line advocat
by the progressive education group at Columbia University . A legi
lative investigation started before they began to furnish history boo
as required by law. There was no history .
  Mr. HAYS . I don't know anything about the blackout in Californi
and I don't know whether this is the proper place to go into that.
don't think there was any blackout in my State .
  Mr. SARGENT. Ohio may be perfect . Other places are not quite
good.
  Mr. HAYS . No ; but Ohio does not have as many radicals on bo
sides as California does. I think that is a generally accepted fact .
  Mr. SARGENT . May I go on, please . I would like to finish my pre
entation.
  Mr. HAYS . It is all right with me .
  Mr. SARGENT . As further evidence of the propaganda purpose a
that these books are a stacked deck, I call your attention to t
fact that the last articles at the end of the eighth grade, after a
that material goes in, the last articles are "Our Constitution," "Civ
Liberties," and "Civic Responsibility ." But all the other materi
comes first. The Constitution article is the one I referred you
here . The Dilworth committee report points out something els
This Russian article contained many cartoons of Stalin . There we
no pictures at all of Lincoln or Jefferson, but there were two ve
derogatory cartoons put in. These cartoons were put in a revis
edition after the legislative investigation had started, showing
deliberate attempt to throw propaganda into the schoolbooks . He
is one showing Lincoln burying the Constitution . The cartoon
reproduced in this report . The text quoted by the Dilworth repo
says :
  "In violation of the Bill of Rights, President Lincoln threw people suspec
of disloyalty into prison without trial . Military courts heard civilian cas
Chief Justice Taney was alarmed at these illegal measures, but Linco
defended his action as a necessity of war . `It is better to save the Union wi
out a Constitution,' he said, `than to save the Constitution without a Union
peoples in the world in the character and acts of President Lincoln who freed a
great race from slavery and is today the outstanding exponent in history of the
rights of the common man.
   "Before the advent of communistic philosophy into this country after the
Russian Revolution, the teachers of the schools all over the United States
encouraged the children to bring pennies to school to build the great memorial
monument to Lincoln on the banks of the Potomac at our National Capital .
   "Nothing so vividly illustrates the change in attitude of some of our national
educational leaders in some policy-forming positions of the National Education
Association of professional educators and teachers as this about-face toward
the memory of Abraham Lincoln who lived and labored `That government of
the people, by the people, and for the people shall not perish from the earth .'"
   Here is one on Thomas Jefferson attempting to tear down the Con-
stitution-this is for the elementary grades .
    The Dilworth report says
   There are two great Americans that the devotees of foreign isms and
ideologies consistently smear . They are Abraham Lincoln because he sup-
pressed a revolution and Thomas Jefferson because he is the great advocate
 of rights of the State and individual as opposed to centralized government con-
 trol.
    The Dilworth committee also says
   If cartoons are so vital for a textbook, why were none used for Russia or
Stalin?
    The conclusion of this report, and it is a unanimous report of the
California Legislature, is that they consider it their duty to publish
 a complete evaluation of the propaganda and they find the books to
be unfit for use in our schools . They did make that evalution . They
found among other things that 113 Communit-front organizations
had to do with some of the material in these books and that 50 Com-
munist-front authors were connected with it . Among the authors
 are Sidney and Beatrice Webb, identified with the Fabian Socialist
Movement in Great Britain .
    The CHAIRMAN . I failed to catch those numbers .
    Mr. SARGENT. 113 front organizations . This reference is at page 47
of the report, and 50 front authors . The reference is at page 48 . I
 will be glad to leave my report for the convenience of the committee .
    Mr. HAYS . Do I understand that these books are not in use any-
 where in California?
    Mr. SARGENT. No. We succeeded in defending ourselves against
them.
    Mr . HAYS . Do you think they are in use anywhere?
    Mr. SARGENT . They were for some time . Texas rejected them by
 action of their State board of education, as I am informed . There
have been questions about them elsewhere .
    There was a program to put these in the schools everywhere and
it is my understanding that the California proceeding broke it up .
    To illustrate the extent to which building a new social order is a
program in these books, let me read the titles serially to show that it
is a very unusual curriculum . This is commencing with the 7th
grade, and running through the 8th
   China, Russia, East Indies, Our Neighbors in North Africa, America's Out-
posts, Italian Americans, Seeing America, Foreign Trade, Lend-Lease, Oil, Rub-
 ber, seeing America, Our Federal Government, Congress, Politics, Machinery for
Foreign Relations, Social Security, Community Planning, Our Land Resources,
Our Water Resources, Conservation, We Americans, the American Indians,
Liberties, For the Right to Liberty, and Civil Responsibilities .
   Someone has passed me a note stating that, the Building Americ
books are being used in Arlington right now . I do not know th
for a fact . Your committee may want to inquire.
   One more illustration on propaganda, and I will turn to anothe
subject . This article on social security, which is not part of the cu
riculum to begin with, no place in an elementary grade, is not a pr
scribed course of study, here is a full page picture the size of a Satu
day Evening Post cover, with a destitute woman with a child in h
arms. That is your propaganda you will find throughout these book
the seamy side of American life, the unfortunate ; sympathetic Russ
is sweetness and light. The United States is a place of destitutio
failure, unsound conditions. The propaganda impact of that kind
a child of tender years is obvious . The California Legislature barr
them.
   The CHAIRMAN . That is one of the same series?
   Mr. SARGENT. Yes, that is the same series . That was barred in Cal
fornia, too. These lead me to another topic .
   I was talking about the propaganda activities of the National Ed
cation Association .
   Another one was carried on by the National Education Associati
which interjected itself into a controversy involving the superinten
ent of schools at Pasadena, Calif ., Mr. Willard L. Goslin . Mr . Go
lin's conduct was unsatisfactory to the Pasadena people . They o
posed a bond issue which he wanted passed, they were opposed to h
  olicies of bringing people from Columbia to workshops, for exampl
   illiam H. Kilpatrick.
   Mr. HAYS . Mr. Chairman, I don't know what we have to do wi
Pasadena's problems about the superintendent of schools .
   Mr . SARGENT. You will find out in a minute . The National Ed
cation Association injected themselves into the case and chastis
the people of Pasadena for firing the superintendent of schools . Th
have no right to invade the local jurisdiction of schools ; that i
political activity .
   Mr . HAYS. Were you engaged in that fight at all?
   Mr. SARGENT. No, Sir ; I had no part in it . I did go down and fi
out what happened afterwards. I had no connection with it . Th
was not my case.
   The CHAIRMAN . I want to state here since so many references ha
been made to the witness, and I have no responsibility for him, that a
my checking indicates that he is an eminent lawyer in California wi
a very high standing.
   Mr. SARGENT . This is another report of the Dilworth committee
the California Legislature . It is the eighth report of that committ
It contains at page 93 a reprinting of a document which purports
be made by Harold Benjamin, chairman of the National Commissi
 for the Defense of Democracy Through Education, NEA. It is
 titled, "Report on the Enemy ." It was delivered at an NEA meetin
 88th delegate assembly, at St . Louis, Mo., July 3, 1946 . In this arti
 he portrays the people as enemies of their schools and says in su
 stance that the educational profession should organize to combat th
He says some of these people are traveling under alias . Some of th
opponents of Columbia Red pragmatism and so on . This document I
will likewise leave with you .
  Incidentally, on my own investigation-Mr.              Benjamin in this article
ascribes all of the responsibility-not all but a substantial part of it
to one Allen A . Zoll of New York, who wrote a statement about pro-
gressive education which is printed in this report, and which is cer-
tainly an entirely proper statement for any person to make-Benjamin
says that statement by Allen Zoll took over the entire controversy and
had a decisive influence . Mr . Benjamin sent an investigator to Pasa-
dena to inquire into this case, a Mr . Skaife, of the National Education
Association. Mr . Skaife inquired into this case and found the charge
about Allen Zoll was unsubstantiated and nonfounded and rendered
such a report to the National Education Association before Mr . Ben-
jamin delivered this false attack on the people . I think that is an
important example of propaganda activity by a tax-exempt organi-
zation, namely, the National Education Association .
  There is more to this story of the smearing of American people
by tax-exempt groups . I have one here which is a true copy of a
letter sent by this Commission for the Defense of Democracy Through
Education of the NEA. It is called Inquiry Into Unjustified Attacks
on Public Education, A Questionnaire . I wish to have this put in
full in the transcript. In the interest of saving time I will not read
it all. This document was sent to approximately 15,000 school
teachers and administrators throughout the country to gather evi-
dence against the people who were protesting conditions in the .
schools . It asks for information about the forms of attack being made,
such as failure to teach the three R's, too many frills, and fads, the
high cost of schools, improper textbooks, insufficient emphasis on
United States history and the Constitution .
  Mr. HAYS. Who sent this out?
  Mr . SARGENT. The National Education Association officially .
  Mr. HAYS . Could I see it?
  Mr. SARGENT . Yes . That is a true copy of the original. They are
gathering evidence on people opposed to school conditions obviously
for the purpose of organizing an attack on the people who do not agree
with them.
   Mr. HAYS . That is what you say .
  Public education is under fire today in many quarters . During recent months
some of the most damaging attacks have been on the public schools at the local
community level .
  While educators do not object to construtive criticism designed to improve
schools, they are growing concerned over unjustified criticisms and misleading
propaganda put out by individuals and groups whose motives are suspect .
  As evidence has accumulated from a number of communities across America,
we have felt increasing need to get a full national picture of attacks on education .
It is not clear yet as to whether these attacks have been concentrated only
in a relatively few communities or are part of a widespread pattern .
  One aim of this questionnaire is to get a national picture of the breadth and
concentration of recent unjustified attacks on public education .
  You might conceivably find fault with that because they are saying
they are unjustified . I have never seen this before. Here are some
questions . You read some. I have not even looked at this . I will
read the first one and see what it says
  1 . Have organizations, clubs, societies, groups (or individuals representing
them) attacked the public schools or public education in general in your com-
  2 . If your answer to the above is Yes, please name the organizations . Aft
each one identified, indicate by N, S, or L, whether you believe it is a Nationa
State, or local organization .
  3 . If education has been attacked in your community since 1948, has t
attack been brought to a head over some issue (e. g., bond or tax rate electio
concerning school costs? Answer Yes or No .
  In your opinion is the principal motive for the attacks in your communi
a desire on the part of certain persons to reduce school costs regardless' of t
damage done to the school program and the welfare of children? Answ
Yes or No .
   I believe you read the next one?
   Mr. SARGENT . Some of them . It is all going into the record .
   Mr. HAYS (reading)
    5 . Check any of the following forms of attack on the public school progr
 which have appeared in your community
    a . Failure to teach the three R's adequately .
    b . Too many frills and fads .
   c . The high cost of public schools.
   d . Improper textbooks .
   e. Progressive education .
   f. Subversive teaching .
   g. Failure to teach moral and spiritual values .
   h. Communistic teaching.
   i . Insufficient emphasis on United States history and the Constitution .
   J . Indoctrinating children with the blessings of the welfare state .
   k. Teaching Socialism .
   1 . Other forms (please explain) .
   6 . The following are pamphlets presenting drastic criticism of public educ
tion . After each please check appropriate columns.
   Have Heard of
   Have Read
   Has circulated in this area .
    (a) They want your child !
    (b) Must American Youth Be taught that Communism and Socialism ar
superior to Americanism?
    (c) How Red are the schools?
    (d) Progressive Education Increasing Delinquency .
    (e) Private schools : The answer to America's educational problem .
   (f) How Red is the Little Red Schoolhouse?
   7 . Have any other pamphlets attacking the public schools been circulated
your community? Answer yes or no.
   8. If the answer is yes to the above question, please give titles, sponsorin
organizations, and indication of contents (if you have extra copies, we wil
appreciate your sending one to us) .
   9 . Has information concerning any of the following organizations come to you
attention?
   a. National Council for American Education .
  b. Pro America .
  c . Committee for Constitutional Government .
  d. America's Future, Inc.
  e. Friends of the Public Schools .
  f. Consitutional Education League .
  g . American Educational League .
  If so, from what source did this information come to you?
   The CHAIRMAN . The questionnaire will be printed in the record i
full.
         INQUIRY INTO UNJUSTIFIED ATTACKS ON PUBLIC EDUCATION
                                A QUESTIONNAIRE
  Public education is under fire today in many quarters. During recent months
some of the most damaging attacks have been on the public schools at the local
community level .
  While educators do not object to constructive criticism designed to improve
schools, they are growing concerned over unjustified criticisms and misleading
propaganda put out by individuals and groups whose motives are suspect .
  As evidence has accumulated from a number of communities across America,
we have felt increasing need to get -a full national picture of attacks on educa-
tion . It is not clear yet as to whether these attacks have been concentrated only
in a relatively few communities or are part of a widespread pattern .
  One aim of this questionnaire is to get a national picture of the breadth and
concentration of recent unjustified attacks on public education . The other aim
is to determine the characteristics and features of attacks on public schools as
they have occurred in various communities .
  A superintendent of a large school system recently wrote to NEA as follows :
  "For a period of 30 years I have been in public-school work, the first 10 as a
teacher, the second 10 as a supervisor, and the third 10 as a superintendent, and
while I have observed, in some instances, direct forces working against the
school program, I have never observed as organized an effort as seems to be
prevalent in communities at the present time ."
  This study has been . approved by the executive committee of the National
Education Association.
  Your cooperation in completing this questionnaire will serve our profession and
the institution of free public schools in America . National Commission for the
Defense of Democracy Through Education, National Education Association,
1201 16th Street NW ., Washington 6, D . C .
  Please note : You will not be quoted directly except with your express consent.
                                    SECTION 1
  Your name.
  Your position .
  Your community and State .
  Your school system (please check) .
  Is your school system a city?
  A county or parish?
  Other type?
  Approximate number of pupils enrolled in your school system during 1949-50 .
                                    SECTION 2
  Please answer the following and comment wherever possible
  1 . Have organizations, clubs, societies, groups (or individuals representing
them) attacked the public schools or public education in general in your com-
munity? Yes__ No__ .
  If so what year or years did the attack or attacks occur?
  2 : If your answeb to the above is yes, please name the organizations . After
each one identified, indicate by n. S . or 1, whether you believe it is a national,
State, or local organization .
  3. . If education has been attacked in your community since 1948, has the
attack been brought to a head over some issue (e . g., bond or tax rate election)
concerning school costs? Yes__ No__.
  4. In your opinion is the principal motive for the attacks in your community
a desire on the part of certain persons to reduce school costs regardless of the
damage done to the school program and the welfare of children? Yes__ No__ .
  5. Check any of the following forms of attack on the public school program
which have appeared in your community :
  c . The high cost of public schools .
   d . Improper textbooks .
  e . Progressive education .
  f . Subversive teaching.
  g. Failure to teach moral and spiritual values .
  h . Communistic teaching.
   L Insufficient emphasis on U . S . history and the Constitution .
  j . Indoctrinating children with the blessing of the welfare state .
  k . Teaching socialism .
   1 . Other forms (please explain) .
   6. The following are pamphlets presenting drastic criticism of public educatio
After each please check appropriate columns .
    (Column :[ headed) : Have heard of-
    (Column 2 headed :) Have read-
    (Column 3 headed) : Has circulated in this area-
    (a) They Want Your Child !
    (b) Must American Youth Be Taught That Communism and Socialism a
Superior to Americanism?
    (c) How Red Are the Schools?
    (d) Progressive Education Increasing Delinquency.
    (e) Private Schools : The answer to America's educational problem .
    (f) How Red Is the Little Red Schoolhouse?
   7. Have any other pamphlets attacking the public schools been circulated
your community? Yes __ No __ .
   8. If the answer is "Yes" to the above question, please give titles, sponsori
organizations, and indication of contents (if you have extra copies, we wi
appreciate your sending one to us)
   9. Has information concerning any of the following organizations come
your attention?
    (a) National Council for American Education .
    (b) Pro America .
    (c) Committee for Constitutional Government.
    (d) America's Future, Inc .
    (e) Friends of the Public Schools .
    (f) Constitutional Education League .
    (g) American Educational League.
   If so, from what source did this information come to you?
   10 . Please name any of the above organizations which you believe attempt
to influence attitudes and action with regard to public education in yo
community
   11 . Have attacks in your community or area-
    (a) Condemned an enriched, permissive school program and advocated
simpler, less flexible program in which students "survive" to the degree th
they learn formal subject matter under conditions emphasizing competitio
    (b) Involved ideological criticism of the democratic philosophy as Americ
educators commonly understand it?
    (e) Attempted to undermine the reputation of national educational leade
 (Dewey, Kilpatrick, etc .) professional organizations (NEA, AASA, etc .)
teacher training institutions?
    (d) Received any unusual help from the press in developing their campaig
    (e) Borne any relationships to parochial and private school interests?
    12 . To what extent do you think these attacks have been hurtful to t
schools? (Check one :) Very hurtful El. Hurtful 0. Not especially hurtful
Beneficial in that they backfired 0.
    13 . Have the public schools in your community or area received help fr
any local community organizations in meeting attacks or major criticisms
they have occurred? Yes -- No __ .
    14 . If your answer to the above question is "yes" please name these organi
tions and indicate briefly how they have helped
    15 . What measures are you taking, or have you taken, in your community
forestall or offset attacks against the program of public education?
    16 . How successfully do you feel these measures to be?
    17 . Please add any comments which will be helpful in interpreting what y
have indicated above or which supply information that you think is pertinen
    Please return this questionnaire as soon as possible to : National Commissi
is deeply appreciated .
   Mr. HAYS . Go on and read it, but it seems to me it is an attempt to
find out what is going on .
   Mr. SARGENT. It is an attempt to gather evidence for the purpose
of lobbying and interfering with the local jurisdiction of school au-
thorities, and this is a tax-exempt corporation engaging in that lobby-
ing activity . It is not their business whether the people in Pasadena
like their superintendent .
   Mr. HAYS . I won't debate that question with you.
   Mr. SARGENT. It isn't.
   Mr. HAYS . But it is certainly the business of national organizations
of teachers and principals to know what attacks are made on the in-
stitutions which they work in and represent and a mere fact-finding
questionnaire to get that information-this committee sent out a lot
of questionnaires to universities all over the country asking what
grants they got from foundations, whether they had been refused, and
so on . Some of them didn't like it.
   Mr. SARGENT. That is not the half of it . The NEA : officially inter=
fered with the Pasadena school controversy . Mr . Willard Given, the
executive secretary of the NEA, offered a resolution before the United
States Commission for UNESCO condemning the people of Pasadena
for firing Superintendent Goslin . Do you know that?
   Mr. HAYS . I don't know. Maybe he was justified .
   Mr. SARGENT. He did . . The lobbying was carried to UNESCO ; a
speech on that subject was delivered by Mr . Lawrence C. Lamb, a
member of the Pasadena School Board, protesting this interference
with the integrity of the school system in the August 1, 1951, issue of
Vital Speeches . I asked for a Library of Congress copy, and unfortu-
nately the page containing this particular article seems to have been
torn out, so I will have to ask leave to put in an excerpt in the record
later. I think it is important . I will get it later . That is the fact. He
went all the way to UNESCO to interfere with Pasadena's jurisdiction
and the school board member I named protested that it had come to a
point where the national propaganda hopped on the back of local citi-
zens trying to run their school affairs in their own way.'
  Mr. HAYS . Was everybody in Pasadena unanimous about this thing,
or was there some controversy?
   Mr. SARGENT. There was controversy . It was their right to be
right or wrong, and not to be interfered with in arriving at the conclu-
sion right or wrong .
  M'r. HAYS . There was controversy?
  Mr. SARGENT. Certainly there was extensive controversy .
  Mr. HAYS . There were two sides to the question?
  Mr. SARGENT. Yes . But it was the duty of the NEA to take neither
side .
  Mr. HAYS . I don't know whether it is up to you to say what the
NEA's duty is . It is your opinion .
  Mr. SARGENT. It is lobbying, however .
  a The speech of Mr. Lawrence C . Lamb, referred to by the witness, appears following his
testimony at p. 403 .
  Mr. SARGENT They certainly are.
  Mrs. PFOST. In the questionnaire?
  Mr. SARGENT. Not the questionnaire alone, but the information o
tained from it was to be used for that purpose and is used for tha
purpose .
  Mrs . PFOST. How widely did the circular become circulated?
  Mr. SARGENT . Fifteen thousand copies throughout the Nation .
   Mrs . PFOST. It was not circulated only in California?
   Mr. SARGENT. No, throughout the country . All principal district
about 15,000 of them .
   Mrs . PFOST. I wanted to ask further, do you think these question
in this area are out of line, that the National Education Associatio
should not concern themselves with this subject?
   Mr. SARGENT. I think they are intended to obtain evidence to use i
interfering with school jurisdiction. They are trying to get, to us
a colloquial expression, the dirt on certain groups they want to ge
after and oppose . These organizations, Pro America, for example,
highly respected organization, why do they want to know what P
America is doing about this thing?
   Mr. HAYS. I don't know anything about Pro America . That is
good catchy title. But are you familiar with the organization, Frien
of the Puic Schools?
   Mr. SARGENT . I know there is such an organization with an offic
in Washington .
   Mr. HAYS . Do you know anything about it?
   Mr. SARGENT . They have issued bulletins .
   Mr. HAYS . They are anti-Catholic .
   Mr. SARGENT. I don't agree with their stand .
   Mr. HAYS . But you don't think it is all right for them to inquir
about' them ?
   Mr. SARGENT. I think they have a civil right .
   Mr. HAYS . I think they have a civil right, but a duty to find out i
such organizations as that are propagandizing teachers . I get the
pamphlet. I don't subscribe to it. They sent it free. I file it in fi
13 . I have read enough to know it is an antireligious, bigoted outfi
   The CHAIRMAN. Since Pro America has been referred to, I am fa
miliar with the organization, Pro America . It is concentrated ver
heavily in California . It is composed of very fine ladies and is a
entirely patriotic and civic organization, and so far as I know, n
criticism has ever been leveled against the organization known as Pr
America .
   Mr. SARGENT . They also want to know whether people protest abou
indoctrinating children with the blessing of the welfare state an
with communistic teaching . I have yet to see any evidence of any
thing really effective that the NEA has done aside from adopting res
olutions about Communists not teaching to effectively combat t
indoctrination such as contained in these books sponsored by them.
   In any event, they have been actively interfering . They have be
 doing much more than gathering information .
   Mr. HAYS. Are you inferring from that statement that the NEA i
 pro-Communist?
  Mr. HAYS . Is your definition of liberal the same as the letter I got
the other day which said beware of these people putting the tag of
liberal to you, because a liberal is a "non-dues-paying Communist ."
Would that be your definition of it?
  Mr. SARGENT . Some are and some are not .
  Mr. HAYS. But you think anybody that has any liberal ideas is a
little suspect?
  Mr. SARGENT . No ; I don't think that. There is a definite philoso-
phy of education in public affairs . In general the League for Indus-
trial Democracy crowd and the John Dewey-Kilpatrick faction in
Teachers College, who have succeeded in getting their particular views
made really an educational line through control of the National Edu-
cation Association, and they are promoting it and defending it. .
  Mr. HAYS. Do you think the NEA ought to be listed as a subversive
organization?
  Mr . SARGENT. No ; I don't think so at all . I think their propaganda
activity should be very extensively inquired into . They lobby for
legislation . They have a legislative committee . They are infringing
on the jurisdiction of the local authorities of our school system, and
impairing the integrity of that organization .
  Mr . HAYS . What about yourorganization, the Sons of the American
Revolution? Do they do any lobbying?
  Mr. SARGENT. They propose some patriotic measures from time to
time which is their right. That is within their charter .
  Mr. HAYS . Anything they propose is patriotic?
  Mr. SARGENT . It is designed to do with things like national defense
exclusively, and the Constitution, as far as I recall .
  Mr . HAYS . What about the posters they had at the convention about
Bishop Oxnam and the hammer and sickle?
  Mr. SARGENT . I don't know anything about the incident .
  Mr. HAYS . I understand quite a few of them disavowed the thing,
but some of the more extreme people sponsored it and had it there .
  Mr. SARGENT . Every large organization has people with varyin
views . Another pamphlet here showing the extent of this organize
attack on the American people who do not like school conditions is
a pamphlet entitled, American Education Under Fire . The author
stated on the cover is Ernest O . Melby. This pamphlet states that it
was prepared with the cooperation of Mary Beauchamp, Prof .
Thodore Brameld, Prof . Herbert Bruner, New York University ;
Prof. David K . Berninghausen, secretary, Committee on Intel-
lectual Freedom, American Library Association ; Prof . H . Gor-
don Hullfish, Ohio State University ; Richard Barnes Kennan, execu-
tive secretary, National Commission for the Defense of Democracy
through Education, Washington, D . C .
  Mr. HAYS . Right there, I want to ask you a question. What is
wrong with Dr. Hullfish ?
  Mr. SARGENT . I am not saying anything is wrong with him . I am
saying he sponsored the pamphlet.
  Mr. HAYS . Is there something wrong with the pamphlet?
  Mr. SARGENT . It is a one-sided case of the presentation of the
attack of people against the schools . Yes, I do. I don't know any-
thing about Hullfish at the moment .
tance with Dr. Hullfish, and I would like to subpena him . It is
reasonable request, and I want to have him say something abou
these things . I don't know what he will say. He won't be primed .
  The CHAIRMAN . The chairman has no objection to subpenaing Dr
Hullfish, but I think it is inadvisable to go about this subpenaing o
a hit-or-miss basis.
  Mr. HAYS . If we have not gone about the hit-or-miss business now
I will put in with you so we might continue that .
   I make a point of order that the House is in session and the com
mittee has no right to sit .
  The CHAIRMAN. Do you think you may be able to conclude thi
afternoon?
  Mr. HAYS . I don't know whether you will reconvene or not . May
say that you have to have permission of the House to sit? I am goin
to object. I think the minority has a right to have it in the reco
that they want a few people to come in here that are available . If y
will brush it aside, then I-will adopt the policy of hindering the oper
ation as much as possible because it is one-sided. I want to bring
some people and if you want to have a conference and agree to it
I. will withdraw my objection.
  The CHAIRMAN . There is no disposition to shut off anybody tha
wants to come or no disposition not to subpena anybody
  Mr. HAYS. I will modify that to invite Dr. Hullfish because I don
think you will have to subpena him .
  The CHAIRMAN. To round out the study.
  Mr. HAYS . I would like to make this statement, Mr . Chairman .
was advised that after the first day when I began to question this wit
ness to the displeasure of some people that from here on in I was told
and I have it on good authority-that Ohio State was going to b
cracked whenever they got a chance, and whatever professors could b
dragged in. That statement was made by somebody out in th
audience who was feeding information . I am going to be put in t
position right now of saying that as far as Ohio State is concerned, it
run largely by a Republican board of trustees, but you are not goin
to let anybody come in here and smear it .
  The CHAIRMAN. What present disposition would you have that
would be prejudiced against Ohio State University, Ohio State, an
citizens?
  Mr. HAYS . I don't say you are. I want you to agree to let me brin
in some people .
  The CHAIRMAN . I was long a friend of Ohio . In the first instanc
I served in the 166th Infantry Ohio Regiment of the Rainbo
Division . I have many friends in Ohio . My closest political associate
have been from Ohio, I am glad to say, on the national level . My entir
contact with Ohio University-Ohio State University-has been suc
as to inspire the greatest confidence . But that I am not referring t
every individual that might be connected with Ohio State Universit
So there is no basis whatever for the suggestion so far as this com
mittee is concerned . I am confident that the mere fact that somebod
in the audience may have passed up such a statement-I would ver
much appreciate those statements not being interjected .
there is something wrong with him .
   Mr . SARGENT. I did not interject him . I am reading an entire list.
I have referred to Ohio State always with some matter that included
it. I mentioned other names with equal impartiality and I will con-
tinue to do that.
   Mr. HAYS. I have not heard you mention any suspects at Tennessee .
   The CHAIRMAN. If he finds them, I will want him to mention that .
   Mr. HAYS . I guess he can find them.
   The CHAIRMAN . The committee will recess until 2 o'clock in the
hopes we can finish .
   (Thereupon, at 12 o'clock noon, a recess was taken until 2 p . m . the
same day .)
                           AFTERNOON RECESS
  The CHAIRMAN . Will the committee be in session?
  You may proceed .
         TESTIMONY OF AARON M. SARGENT, ATTORNEY,
               SAN FRANCISCO, CALIF.-Resumed
   Mr. SARGENT. At the session this morning there was
  Mr. HAYS . Before you get started so I won't interrupt any state-
ment, and if you can't remember exactly what you said I have asked
them to bring up the transcript, but you mentioned Mr . Allen Zoll,
and do you remember what you said about him?
   Mr. SARGENT. I said in substance that they had referred to a pam-
phlet written by him which had been distributed to some extent in
connection with the Pasadena school controversy, a pamphlet
  Mr. HAYS . This is all new to me. You say "they" had referred .
Whom do you mean?
  Mr. SARGENT. Some of the various people, NEA among others . The
statement that Harold Benjamin made, this report on it refers to
Zoll's pamphlets and denounces this and what happened in Pasadena
as being an affair instigated by Allen Zoll, and charged directly it
was. The NEA's own commission investigated and found out that
Zoll did not instigate it and his writings had very limited effect on it .
Zoll has been very extensively smeared, and they have been attempt-
ing to smear many other people through Allen Zoll.
  Mr. HAYS. Let me ask you this : You wouldn't consider an Attorney
General's listing as a smear, would you? You have cited numerous
people who have been on the Attorney General's list yourself and I
haven't challenged you and said you are smearing them .
  Mr. SARGENT . I am not smearing them .
  Mr. HAYS . Let me read you what I got from the Attorney General .
  Mr. SARGENT . I know all about it.
  Mr. HAYS . But perhaps the audience doesn't and so I will read it .
  This came from Mr . William Foley, head of the Internal Security
Affairs Office, of the Office of the Attorney General, Department of
Justice.
  Mr. Zoll has been disclosed and he himself has disclosed that he is
the founder and national president of the American Patriots, Inc .
is a Fascist organization . In 1939, he was arrested for attempt t
extort money from the president of a radio station which had refuse
Father Coughlin the right to speak on that radio station . He, M
Zoll, caused a picket line to be thrown around that radio station . Th
information was in the New York Times of July 2, 1939, July 8, 1939
and September 13,1939. The picket line was thrown around the radi
station for the same reason as above .
   Mr. Zoll attended a luncheon at which Mr. Fritz Kuhn, head of t
German-American Bund, was guest speaker in 1938. Mr. Zoll has be
reported by newspapers as being very active in association with t
Christian Front which is an anti-Semitic group .
   Mr. Zoll was also cosponsor for meetings with Gerald L. K. Smit
   Now you say this is the fellow they tried to smear?
   Mr. SARGENT . No, I say that they tried to smear the people a
Pasadena through the things you have told us about Allen Zoll . An
to represent that Allen Zoll was instigating the whole performance.
   Mr. HAYS . But you did put pamphlets out?
   Mr. SARGENT. He had some literature, and some people bought th
literature, and it is well written, and there is nothing objectionabl
in the literature, and the California legislative committee found th
literature was not objectionable or Fascist or improper in any way .
   Mr. HAYS . But you have cited a bunch of people here, all throug
your testimony, and inferred if they were on Attorney General's sub
versive list, that was sufficient prima facie evidence that everythin
they said or did, past, present, or future, was bad .
   Mr . SARGENT. I have not referred to that .
   Mr. HAYS . If we are going to use that definition, I think we oug
to apply it to everybody .
   Mr . SARGENT. I don't think I have referred to the Attorney Gen
eral's list at all from the time I landed here until now .
   Mr. HAYS . You say they are on lists . And haven't you testified a
read that so and so belonged to 136 Communist-front organizations
   Mr. SARGENT. The list I gave was from the House Un-America
Activities Report, appendix IX of 1944 . I gave the Zoll incident for
definite reason . Zoll has been very, very extensively smeared, and
personally don't know the merits of it one way or the other ; but I
know the people of Pasadena had nothing to do with the affairs o
Mr. Zoll and I also know that the National Education Associati
investigated and talked to Willard Goslin, and reported in writing t
Washington that the Zoll story, as applied to the people of Pasadena
was false and had no important influence on the case .
   After receiving that information, Harold Benjamin launched a
attack on the people of Pasadena in his report to the enemy .
   Mr. HAYS. Who is Harold Benjamin?
   Mr. SARGENT. He is connected with this defense commission, so
called, of the National Education Association, and he vilified t
 people of Pasadena knowingly after his own investigating agent wa
clown there and found that the charge was false.
   Mr. HAYS . That is a pretty serious charge .
   Mr. SARGENT. I saw the report, Mr . Hays.
   Mr. HAYS . But you just said that he vilified the people of Pasade
 knowingly, is that right?
   Mr. SARGENT. He tried to tag the Zoll story
  Mr.            . Yes, and it is true .
  Mr. HAYS. Now, then, Mr . Chairman, I would like to have an agree-
ment that we call in Mr. Benjamin and ask him about this .
   The CHAIRMAN . Well, without passing or making an expression
about the advisability of whom we should or shouldn't call, I don't
think it is in the interest of good procedure to just sit here and
miscellaneously say we are going to call first one and then another.
   Mr. HAYS . In the interest of fair presentation, these people have
been mentioned very unfavorably, and I don't know whether it is true
or not ; but it seems to me the only way you are going to get an objec-
tive picture is call them and let them testify .
   The CHAIRMAN. We haven't heard from Mr. Sargent yet. It may
be that he will want to testify, and anybody that has been unfavorably
mentioned, and desires to testify, my own feeling is should be per-
mitted to testify.
   Mr. HAYS . May I ask you this
   The CHAIRMAN . Those who do not express a desire to testify, if the
committee feels that their testimony is important, in developing the
full story, then they should be required to testify .
   Now that is what I feel should be the guide .
   Mr. HAYS . Mr. Chairman, here is the situation : We are allowing
Mr. Sargent here to go on at great length, and I have shown no dispo-
sition to limit him, and, in fact, I have told you that I will try to
accommodate myself to be here as long as he desires to talk .
   But when I say that I would like to hear from some of these other
people, I sort of get a general sluffing-off and let-us-put-it-off attitude,
and you know as well as I do that the committee has limited funds .
   And I think that you will agree with me, in public, that there
wouldn't be a Chinaman's chance now of getting any more funds from
the Congress, after the first 3 weeks of this .
   When we run out of money, we are through . I just would like to
hear a few of these people who may have been smeared and/or at
least they may think they may have been smeared .
   The CHAIRMAN. It isn't the intention of the chairman of the com-
mittee to request the committee to request additional funds of the
Congress . But if it is and funds should be required and the committee
should request it, I have confidence that the Congress might favorably
consider the request.
   But that is not indicated at the present time. Also, I feel that there
would be ample funds to complete this full investigation, and go
through with the complete and full hearings so that nobody is going
to be shut off because of lack of funds .
   Mr_ WORMSER. May I make a suggestion, Mr. Hays?
   I have tried to make clear to the attorneys for the major foundations
that we would suit their reasonable convenience in the calling of wit-
nesses. I suggest that they be asked what witness they would like
 to have. After all, we want to reserve as much time for them as we
can .
   Mr. HAYS . Do you have any objection if I invite Mr. Benjamin to
 appear and he accepts?
   Now, that ought to be a fair thing . I am not even going to ask you
to subpena him. Let us invite him . You don't have any objection to
    The CHAIRMAN . My thought is, as I say, that anyone that has bee
 unfavorably mentioned, if he desires to appear, he will have oppor
 tunity to appear. Anyone that the committee feels should appeal, i
 order to develop the full story, will be or should be subpenaed to
 appear.
    Mr. HAYS . Mr . Chairman, you sit there with three votes in you
 pocket, and so it just boils down to who you feel should appear . I a
asking you pointblank : Can we have Mr. Benjamin?
    Before we get on to that, I believe we had an agreement before
lunch that Dr . Helper should be invited .
    The CHAIRMAN. That is right .
   Mr. HAYS. .And I also would like to have Mr . Benjamin invited . I
he declines, I will say no more about it.
   The CHAIRMAN. Suppose we discuss that, and we will work thes
things out. We are not going to have any trouble in reaching a deci
sion about who should be called .
   Mr . HAYS . We are having a lot of trouble to get you to say Mr
Benjamin can come.
   The CHAIRMAN . You bring these requests up in such a way that yo
are impugning the good intentions of somebody, unintentionally o
otherwise, that the chairman is not going to do the fair and objective
thing. Therefore, in public session you have to get him nailed down
on something.
   I don't think that that is a dignified procedure . The chairma
certainly has shown no disposition to want to cut anybody off . I thin
we can say that anybody that you upon reflection feel should be called
that arrangements will be made to call them .
   Mr . HAYS . I am not impugning anybody's motives . But when yo
say that I have to nail things down, let me say this : That if past ex
  erience has showed me that I better nail them down, that is the way
   am going to do it .
   The CHAIRMAN. Now, you are getting
   Mr. HAYS . I am not being a bit personal . I will say that I didn'
mention you, but if you want to put the shoe on, I can't help it .
   But in my lifetime, let me say that I have noted that if you get
things nailed down there is hardly any arguments about who said
what and who didn't say what, and who we promised to bring in and
who we didn't .
   As far as being fair and impugning anything, let me say to you that
you have brought this witness in and I didn't know that he was t
be brought in until 2 or 3 days before. I had no knowledge that th
staff was going to bring this witness in and I didn't object to it .
   We have heard him for a long, long time . I think we could dispens
with Dr . Hullfish, Mr . Benjamin, Ed Murrow, and a few more of
them, all put together in the amount of time he has had .
   I don't think that that would be unfair .
   The CHAIRMAN. Now, I think the references that you made whic
might very well be inferred, and you made references to the chairman,
is quite uncalled for . But still, that is not going to ruffle me in the
least .
   Mr. HAYS. I am not trying to ruffle you, I am trying to get an agree-
ment we call Mr . Benjamin in .
are dealing with gentlemen . And I hope my experinece will not cause-,
me to feel otherwise .
   Mr. HAYS . Let us not deal in inferences . If you feel that way, why
don't you just say so . I am a pretty outspoken fellow and I don't .
make any inferences .
   Any time you said I have made an inference, and it is no inference,,
and so if you are trying to say now that I am not a gentlemen, just
say so. That is the way to do that.
   The CHAIRMAN. I dodi't use the kind of language that has been used .
here, myself, that is not in my character, except under purposes of
great provocation.
   Mr. HAYS . I imagine you were greatly provoked when you said some,
of the things you did about some of the eminent Republicans in your
sp eech on the floor, about the Ford Foundation having prominent .
Communists in it, and so on .
   You see, I am in a very anomalous position here. And I am only
trying to have fair play and to protect you might say the moneyed :
wing of the Republican Party by an attack from another wing of the
Republican Party . I don't suppose I will get much gratitude, but I,
have a tremendous sense of fair play .
  If I am going to referee the fight between one group of Republicans
and another one, I think I ought to have a little bit of leeway about.
who would we call in as witnesses . I am trying to be the referee .
   If there is going to be any bloodletting, I want it to be done under
fair circumstances.
  The CHAIRMAN . I feel under great obligation to you standing in the
position of referee .
   Mrs . PFOST . Where does this Mr. Benjamin live? What is the
residence ?
   Mr. SARGENT . I presume it is Washington, D . C . He is connected
with or the last I heard he was connected with the National Com- ,.
mission for Defense of Democracy of NEA . I think he works out of
National Headquarters. I don't know for sure .
  Mr. WORMSER. May I just put this before you	
  Mr. SARGENT . He is from the University of Maryland .
  Mr. WORMSER . Mr. Chairman, this may be of some help to us .
  In studying what should go in our rules of procedure, I studied the •
rules of other committees, and also the lectures of professors, and what,
not . And some of them recommended a rule that where a person was .
referred to by a witness as a subversive, he should be notified of thatt
fact and given an opportunity to come in and say whether he was or
not .
  That of course is an easy case . But here if a witness calls a man a
McKinley Republican or another witness calls a man an FDR Demo-
crat, I question and I will leave it to you whether those fellows,,
whether it is worthwhile calling them in and asking him if he is a .
Southern Democrat instead of an FDR Democrat or McKinley Re-
publican .
  In other words, clearly if the witness has something to contribute,
on the purpose of foundations, then clearly they should be subpenaed.
But if they are just, shall we say, modestly embarrassed by being -
called, let us say, a -McKinley Republican, should we go to the trouble
     49720-54-pt . 1	22
say that this committee should invite him and tell him of the fac
and invite him to come in any say whether he is or he is not .
   Mr. HAYS. Well, of course, the testimony that Mr . Sargent h
given, a great deal of it, has implied many things . But when you t
to pin him down, he is very careful to back up and say, "Well,
didn't call him so and so ."
   But by implication, you can call people a lot of things .
   Now, the reason I asked for Mr . Benjamin specifically is that
understand he is an official of the NEA, and certainly the NEA ha
been given a pretty rough time in Mr . Sargent's testimony. An
I would like to get Mr. Benjamin, and perhaps maybe somebody el
from the NEA, because you know out where I live the NEA, all o
the teachers in my district practically belong to the NEA ; they a
respectable people, and I don't like to have them maligned by infer
ence through an organization that they belong to .
   I am not going to sit here quietly and let it be done, if these hearing
drag on until hristmas.
   The CHAIRMAN . It is expected that someone from the NEA will
called .
   Mr. HAYS . You keep saying "it is expected," and I want to tie
down .
   The CHAIRMAN . It should be the appropriate one that is represen
ative of the NEA .
   Mr. HAYS . I kept hearing that "it was expected" we would star
these hearings every week from January on ; but we didn't get th
started . An so I just feel that I would like to get a few things tie
clown so we know where we stand, that is all .
  Mr. SARGENT . May I proceed with this?
  Mr. HAYS . Don't get too excited-you may not get too excited-
am going to make a point of order that the committee is out of order
and the House goes in session and we have no permission to sit .
  Mr. SARGENT. I am here to try to finish this afternoon .
  The CHAIRMAN . You kept hearing after January that the com
mittee was going to have hearings and it is having hearings .
  Mr. HAYS . It took a long time to get at them.
  The record will show if the rules are changed, and as I have said
I have had them changed in the middle of the game before .
  The CHAIRMAN. I would not get excited about that.
  Mr. HAYS . I didn't even get excited when a person came in m
office today and said that I worked for a Republican Congressma
And I think that you ought to know this . It just revolts me that ther
was a discussion in our office this morning about the Republican Na
tional Committee was going to double the amount of money that the
spend against you the last time and that you are getting too obnoxious
and how they spent $33,000 the last time, the Republican Nationa
Committee put in $8,000 .
  Now I suppose they are going to double that $8,000, but you know th
funny part of it is that the people of my district, Mr . Reece, have nev
had any inclination to pay any attention from outsiders, and I ge
a lot of Republican votes in spite of all of this outside money . I go
it the last time.
 ou are talking .
   Mr. HAYS . I am giving you some .
y




   The CHAIRMAN . I am glad to have the information .
   Thank you very, very much indeed .
   You may proceed .
   Mr. SARGENT. As far as Mr. Allen Zoll is concerned, he is a man
who has been very extensively smeared, either justly or unjustly, and I
.am not familiar with the facts .
   I have not read the various citations involved here, and I don't
know one way or the other . The charges may be true or they may
be untrue, or they may be partly true or partly false . I have not
referred here in any instance to the record of any person except on the
basis of my personal examination of the record that I have referred to .
    I am only interested in the Zoll incident from one standpoint, that
is, that the known smear which had highly developed proportions was
applied through the report on the enemy of Harold Benjamin.
   Mr. HAYS . You can smear a Fascist, you mean it is possible?
   Mr. SARGENT . You can drag a Fascist, someone Fascist or non-
Fascist, you go drag that record in on a community and attempt to
show that the community is backing the man himself and smear
people who are in no way connected with what the original source
may be, that is what happened here .
    Mr . Benjamin dragged it into Pasadena where it had no place and
a; California legislative committee found it didn't have any place .
It is another example of this .
    Mr. HAYS . When you drag somebody's name into this, you are not
smearing them, and you are just being a good patriotic American,
 like you have done with Dr . Hullfish and others .
    Mr. SARGENT. I didn't drag Dr. Hullfish in any derogatory capacity,
 and I referred to him as one of the people who wrote a pamphlet .
    Mr. HAYS . You didn't say that you recommended him?
    Mr. SARGENT. I think the pamphlet is unjustified and this is a piece
 of propaganda.
    Mr. HAYS. But saying he wrote an unjustified piece of propaganda
 isn't smearing him at all . That is just being truthful .
    Mr. SARGENT . The propaganda is his own work and I have a right
 to discuss the man's work . The Pasadena case is not the work of
 Allen Zoll .
    Mr. HAYS . I would like to state right here that there has never been
 in my experience in a study of history a situation in which a congres-
 sional committee has let anyone come in and indiscriminately smear as
 many people as this committee has let this witness do in the past 3
 days .
    Mr. SARGENT . My authority here is the report of the California leg-
 islative committee under Senator Dilworth's chairmanship . It is the
 eighth report and I read you from the report, and'I read it factually.
     Now, there has been reference here to the National Society of the
 Sons of the American Revolution, of which I am a member . I think,
  in justice to that organization and in view of the reference that I am
  entitled to read a statement of their position on this subversive teach-
  ing question . It is a resolution adopted at their national congress,
  he d at Minneapolis, Minn ., May 18, 1952.
on page 5, column 1, carrying over to the first column on page 6 o
the document known as the bill of grievances .
  It states in substance that they decided and believe the following t
be a true statement of conditions affecting the public schools : Tha
textbooks, subversive textbooks and teachinpractices originate fro
sources that are interstate and international-in scope, effective contro
is beyond State power ; that an intelligent and informed public opin
ion is the only sound method of correcting the evil, and in accordan
with American principles .
  The public opinion to be effective should be national and shoul
be equal in strength to the subversive influences involved . And that
  An investigation of the kind required should be conducted in a judicial manne
as a nonpartisan impartial inquiry sufficiently broad in scope to inform th
people as to the nature and extent of the subversive educational problem affect
ing the public schools in the several States .
   That the society has a proper interest in the matter under its char
ter and that its officers are authorized and instructed to prepare a do
ument for Congress calling for a national investigation of these prac
tices, and to do and perform any acts necessary to have it favorabl
considered .
  The petition so prepared, in accordance with that resolution
known as the bill of grievances-presented to the United States Senat
Judiciary Committee and to the House of Representatives, reads a
follows
  Be it resolved by the National Society, Sons of the American Revolution,
annual congress assembled
  First : That we do hereby believe and determine the following to be a tru
statement of the conditions affecting the public schools of many of our States
resulting from the introduction of subversive textbooks and teaching practices
        (a) That such textbooks and teaching practices originate from sourc
    which are interstate and national in scope ;
       (b) Effective control thereof is beyond the power and outside the reac
    of any processes available to the legislature of any one State ;
       (c) Intelligent and informed public opinion affords the only sound metho
    of correcting this evil in accordance with American principles ;
        (d) Public opinion, to be effective in this field should be made nationa
    in scope and equal in strength to the subversive influences now affecting ou
    public school system ;
        (e) An investigation of the kind required should be conducted in a judici
    manner as a nonpartisan and impartial inquiry, sufficiently broad in scop
    to inform the people as to the nature and extent of subversive educatio
    problems affecting the public schools in the several States ;
       (f) That this society under its charter has a proper and direct interes
     in this subject, sufficient to justify it in taking action to bring about su
     an investigation .
  Second : That we do hereby authorize and instruct the officers and reques
the trustees of this society to prepare and submit a petition to the Congress o
the United States calling for a national investigation of subversive teachin
practices affecting the public schools in the several States to the end tha
appropriate action may be taken thereon, and to do and perform such acts as
they may deem necessary to have such petition favorably considered .
  Mr. SARGENT. The organization of which I am a member stand
behind the sort of inquiry which this committee is carrying on .
  In the interest of clear thinking and also fairness, I think we shoul
state here, my testimony has, as you recall been confined entirely,
think, to the 3 foundations . The Big Three, I think I called them
That is Rockefeller, Carnegie, and Ford.
feller Foundation, the General Education Board, and the Interna-
tional Education Institute . Carnegie, as you know, has the Carnegie
Corp. of New York, which is the one that sponsored that survey, .
$300,000 survey on conclusions and recommendations . It also has a
Carnegie Endowment for International Peace . And the Ford
Foundation has a giant fund with many subcorporations .
   When I say the foundations, unless otherwise indicated, I mean
 someone or more of that group. They are the money power behind
the condition, propaganda condition and other conditions you are
inquirin into .
   I thin it should be understood that there are areas not included
in the present scope here, areas having nothing to do with control of
propaganda, and such with which I link that your committee will
not be interested, and certainly I am not.
   Mr. HAYS . Could you give us just in brief a summary of a para-
graph or so, so that we can get it in a condensed form of just what
these 3 foundations have done .that you object to?
   Mr. SARGENT. The Rockefeller Foundation has actively promoted
and supported the injection and the propagation of the so-called John
Dewey system of experimental education and has aided the introduc-
tion of Communist practices in our school system and is defending
and supporting the continuance of those practices in the schools .
   Mr. HAYS . That is the Rockefeller Foundation?
   Mr. SARGENT. Yes, sir, and also the General Education Board and
the International Education Institute .
   Mr. HAYS . Carnegie has aided it through various grants ; both of
them incidentally are carrying on a lobby and a very extensive lobby,
involving the schools which I will testify about this afternoon .
   The ord Foundation has become the lobby which has interfered
or is interfering with the integrity of local schools and is promoting
world federalism and world federal government, among other things,
and extending its power into many areas capable of being dangerous .
   Do you have any strong belief that the Ford Foundation either is
Communist or has promoted communism in any way?
   Mr. SARGENT. I don't know the specific instances referred to in the
chairman's report and I can't testify on my own knowledge, but 1
understand it has .
   But I don't personally know that and I can't testify to it.
   Mr. HAYS . Do you happen to have there among your papers a list
oof the directors of these foundations?
   Mr. SARGENT. No.
   Mr. HAYS . Does the staff have a list of them?
   Mr. SARGENT . I am not attempting to, name names . I am talking
about action.
   Mr. HAYS . This is on, my own ; I am going off on an expedition
here.
   Miss CASEY . We have their names as they appear in the latest annual
reports we have. I think in most instances that would be 1952 .
   I think also their letterhead may have the names. However, I am
sure these foundations-Carnegie, Rockefeller, and Ford-would
gladly give us a list of their officers and trustees from the time they
were established .
foundations .
  The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, it will be so ordered.
  (The list of names is as follows :)
            CARNEGIE CORPORATION OF NEw YORK, 1911-54
T1'ustees
James R. Angell, 1920-21, ex officio ; president of Carnegie Corp .
Thomas S. Arbuthnot, 1953-52, ex officio ; president of Carnegie Her
   Fund Commission
Newton D. Baker, 1931-37
James Bertram, 1911-34, life member
W. Randolph Burgess, 1940
Vannevar Bush, 1939, ex officio ; president of Carnegie Institution o
   Washington
Nicholas Murray Butler, 1925-45, ex officio ; president of Carnegi
   Endowment for International Peace
Oliver C . Carmichael, 1945-53, ex officio ; president of Carnegie Foun
   dation for Advancement of Teaching
          Carnegie,
Andrew Carnegie, 1911-19, life member
Mrs. Andrew               1919-29
John J . Carty, 1923-32
Samuel Harden Church, 1914-43, ex officio ; president of Carnegi
   Institute
Lotus Delta Coffman, 1936-38
Charles Dollard, 1948, ex officio ; president of Carnegie Corp .
Robert A . Franks, 1911-35, life member
William N. Frew, 1911-14, ex officio ; president of Carnegie Institute
William Frew, 1943-48, ex officio ; president of Carnegie Institute
John W. Gardner, 1954
Morris Hadley 1947
William J. Holland, 1922-32, ex officio ; president of Carnegie Her
   Fund Commission
David F . Houston, 1929-34
Henry James, 1928-47
Walter A . Jessup, 1934-44, ex officio ; president of Carnegie Founda
   tion for Advancement of Teaching (1934-44) and of Carnegi
   Corp. (1941-44)
Devereaux C. Josephs, 1944, ex officio 1945-48 ; president of Carnegi
   Corp.
Nicholas Kelley, 1936
Frederick P . Keppel, 1923-41, ex officio ; president of Carnegie Corp .
Russell Leffingwell, 1923
George C . Marshall, 1946-50
John C . Merriam, 1921-38, ex officio ; president of Carnegie Institutio
   of Washington
 Margaret Carnegie Miller, 1934
Frederick Osborn, 1936
 Arthur W. Page, 1934
John A . Poynton, 1916-34
 Gwilym A . Price, 1953
  tion for the Advancement of Teaching
Elihu Root, 1911-37, ex officio 1911-25 ; president of Carnegie Endow-
  ment for International Peace
Elihu Root, Jr., 1937
Charles M . Spofford, 1953
Henry Suzzalo, 1930-33, ex officio ; president of Carnegie Foundation
  for Advancement of Teaching
Charles L. Taylor, 1911-22, ex officio ; president of Carnegie Hero
  Fund Commission
Charles Allen Thomas, 1951
Leroy A. Wilson, 1948-51
Robert S . Woodward, 1911-20, ex officio ; president of Carnegie Insti-
  tution of Washington
Officers
Chairman of the board
    Elihu Root, 1920-37
     Nicholas Murray Butler, 1937-45
    Russell Lefngwel1,1946 .
Vice chairman of the board : R. A. Franks, 1920-35
President
    Andrew Carnegie, 1911-19
    Elihu Root, 1919-20
    James R. Angell, 1920-21
     Henry S . Pritchett, 1921-23 (acting)
    Frederick P. Keppel, 1923-41
    Walter A. Jessup, 1941-44
    Devereux C. Josephs, 1945-48
     Charles Dollard, 1948
Vice president :
    Elihu Root, 1911-19
    R. A. Franks, 1913-20
    Charles Dollard, 1947-48
    John W. Gardner, 1949
    James A. Perkins, 1951
Secretary
    James Bertram, 1911-34
    Robert M. Lester, 1934
Treasurer
    R. A. Franks, 1911-35
    Robertson D . Ward, 1935-42
    C. Herbert Lee, 1942
Assistant to the president
    Beardsley Ruml, 1920-22
    William S. Learned, 1922-24
    Morse A . Cartwright, 1924-26
    Robert M. Lester, 1926-34
    John M. Russell, 1934-40
    Charles Dollard 1938-45
    Stephen H . StacIpole,1940-45
     Charles Dollard, 1945 47
     Oliver C . Carmichael, 1945-53
     Pendleton Herring, 1946-48
     Whitney H. Shepardson, 1946-53
     John W . Gardner, 1947-49
     James A. Perkins, 1950-51
 Executive assistant
     Stephen H. Stackpole, 1953
     William W . Marvel, 1953
     Eugene I. Burdock, 1953
Associate secretary : Florence Anderson, 1951
Assistant secretary : Florence Anderson, 1947-51
Assistant treasurer :
     Michael Pescatello, 1947
     James W. Campbell, 1953
_Investment officer
     Barent Lefferts, 1932 16
     S. S. Hall, Jr., 1935-40
     Parker Monroe, 1935-39
     C. Herbert Lee, 1937-47
     Michael Pescatello, 1946 17
  TRUSTEES OF THE CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE
                                 1910-54
  Alexander, Wallace McK . (1935-39)
  Anderson, Dillon (1953- )
 Bacon, Robert (1913-19)
  Ballantine, Arthur A. (1936-50, honorary 1953), member, financ
    committee (1938-50) ; member, executive committee (1938-48)
    chairman, finance committee (1948-50)
 Bancroft, Edgar A. (1918-25), member, finance committee (1920-25)
  Barrows, David P . (1931-51)
  Bell, James F. (1939-42)
  Brookings, Robert S . (1910-32)
 Bullitt, William Marshall (1933-)
  Bundy, Harvey H. (1948-), member, executive committee (1949-)
    chairman, 1952 ; vice chairman of the board (1951-52) ; chariman o
    the board, 1952-)
  Burke, Thomas (1910-25)
 _Butler, Nicholas Murray (1910-47), director, division of intercours
    and education (1911-45) ; president (1925-45) ; president emeritu
    (1945-47) ; member, executive committee (1911-45) ; chairman, exec
    utive committee (1925-45)
 'Cadwalader, John L . (1910-14)
  Catlin, Daniel K. (1930-51, honorary 1951-54)
  Chapin, W. W. (1939-54, honorary 1954)
 Cherrington, Ben M . (1943-)
'Choate, Joseph H. (1910-17), vice president (1911-17)
 Clapp, Margaret (1951-)
,,Cole, David L. (1951-)
  acting president (1945-46) ; chairman, executive committee (1945-
  46) ; vice chairman of the board (1947-50)
Davis, Norman H . (1931-43)
Delano, Frederic A . (1920-49), assistant treasurer (1923-29) ; treas-
  urer (1929-36) ; member, executive committee (1929-36) ; mem-
  ber, finance committee (1923-38)
Dodge, Cleveland H . (1910-19)
DuBridge, Lee A. (1951-)
Dulles, John Foster (1911 52), chairman of the board (1946-52) ;
  chairman, executive committee (1946-52)
Dunn, Frederick S . (1951-)
Eisenhower, Dwight D . (1948-52)
Eliot, Charles W . (1910-19)
Evans, Lawton B . (1926-34)
Finch, George A . (1940-), assistant secretary (1911-40), secretary
   (1940 17) ; assistant director, division of international law (1917-
  40) ; associate director,, division of international law (1940-43) ;
  director, division of international law (1943-47) ; member, execu-
  tive committee (1940-46) ; counselor (1948-50)
Foster, Arthur William (1910-25)
Foster, John W . (1910-17), member, executive committee (1911)
Fox, Austen G . (1910-37), member, executive committee (1911-37)
Franks, Robert A . (1910-35), member, finance committee (1911-35) ;
  chairman, finance committee (1921-35)
Fraser, Leon (1938-45), member, finance committee (1938-45) ; treas-
  urer (1941-42)
Freeman, Douglas S . (1937-53)
Gaines, Francis Pendleton (1933-51), member, executive committee
   (1937-47)
Gray, George (1915-25), vice president (1918-25)
Gross, Ernest A . (1953-)
Hamlin, Charles S . (1923-38), assistant treasurer (1929-38) ; member, .
  finance committee (1930-31)
Harrison, Earl Grant (1947-), member, executive committee (1947-50, .
  1953-)
Heinz, Howard (1926 11)
Hill, David Jayne (1918-32)
Hiss, Alger (1946-50), president (1946-49) ; member, executive com-
  mittee (1946-48)
Holman, Alfred (1920-30)
Houghton, Alanson B . (1930 41), treasurer (1936-41)
Howard, William M. (1910-30)
Jessup, Philip C. (1937-), director, division of international law
   (1940 13)
Johnson, Joseph E . (1950-), president (1950-) ; member, execu-
  tive committee (1950-) ; member, finance committee (1950-)
Kirk, Grayson L . (1953-) ; member, executive committee (1953-)
Lansing, Robert (1920-28), vice president (1926-28)
Lowden, Frank 0 . (1923-41)
Manning, Richard I . (1930-31)
Mather, Samuel (1910.49), member, finance committee (1911-19)
Molyneaux, Peter (1934-51)
   35) ; assistant treasurer (1917-23) ; treasurer (1923-29) ; vice pres
   dent (1929-37)
 Morris, Roland S . (1930-45), member, executive committee (193
   45) ; assistant treasurer (1938-42) ; treasurer (1942-45) .
Morrow, Dwight W. (1925-30), member, finance committee (1925-2
Murrow, Edward R . (1951-)
 Nelson, Otto L . Jr. (1949-), member, executive committee (1949-)
 Nolde, O . Frederick (1951-), member, executive committee (1951-
 Olds, Robert E . (1925-32)
 Page, Robert Newton (1920-25)
 Parker, Edwin B . (1926-29)
 Patterson, Ellmore C. (1951-), chairman, finance committee (1951-
Percy, LeRoy (1925-29)
 Perkins, George W. (1910-20), chairman, finance committee (191
   20)
.Peters, William A . (1926-29)
Pritchett, Henry S. (1910-39), member, executive committee (1911
   35)
_Reed, Philip D . (1945-53)
Rockefeller, David (1947-), member, executive committee (1947-
   assistant treasurer (1947-49) ; treasurer (1949-) ; vice preside
   1950-53 ; vice chairman (1953-)
       Elihu (1910-37) president 1910-25) ; chairman, executive co
   mittee (1911-25) ; member, executive committee (1925-30)
Ryerson, Edward L., (1933), member, executive committee (1951-5
Schieffelin, W. J ., Jr . (1941), member, finance committee (1954)
Schmidlapp, Jacob G . (1910-19)
Scott, James Brown (191.0-43), secretary (1910-40) ; secrets eme
   itus (1940-43) ; member, executive committee (1911-40) ; directo
   division of international law (1911-40) ; director emeritus, divisi
   of international law (1940-43)
Severance, Cordenio A. (191.8-25)
Sheffield, James R . (1919-38), member, finance committee (1920-2
   1988-30, 1931-38) ; member, executive committee (1923-27, 1930
   38)
Sherman, Maurice S . (1926-47), member, executive committee (193
   47)
Shotwell, James Thomson (1925-51, honorary 1951), director, div
   sion of economics and history (192 4 18) ; member, executive com
   mittee (1927-29, 1948-50) ; acting president (1948-49) ; preside
   (1949-50) ; president emeritus (1950)
Shuster, George N. (1954)
Sibley, Harper (1938), member, finance committee (1948)
Slayden, James L. (1910-24)
Smiley, Albert K. (1910-12)
Smith, Jeremiah, Jr. (1930-34)
Sprague, Charles A . (1954)
Straus, Oscar S. (1910-26)
Strawn, Silas H . . (1926-46)
Sutherland, George (1920-25)
Taft, Robert A. (1935-38)
Taylor, Carles L . (1910-22)
  23 ; treasurer (1912-23)
Wadsworth, Eliot (1937-51), assistant treasurer (1911 15) ; treasurer
   (194"9) ; member, finance committee (1945-49) ; member, execu-
  tive committee (1945-49)
Wakefield, Lyman E . (1943-45)
Watson, Thomas J . (1934-51, honorary 1951), chairman, finance com-
  mittee (1935-47) ; member, executive committee (1936-46, 1948-
  51)
Waymack, W . W . (1941-), member, executive committee (1946-49)
White, Andrew D . (1910-18 )
Williams, John Sharp (1910-22)
Woodward, Robert S . (1910-24)
Wright, Luke E . (1910-18)
Wriston, Henry M . (1943-54)
     CARNEGIE FOUNDATION FOR TILE ADVANCEMENT OF TEACll LNG

Trustees
Raymond B . Allen, 1948-
Frank Aydelotte, 1921-53
H. McClelland Bell, 1905-18
William L . Bryan, 1910-38
M. Le Roy Burton, 1915-25
Nicholas Murray Butler, 1905-47
Samuel P. Capen, 1935-50
~Oliver C. Carmichael, 1937-
T . Morrison Carnegie, 1905-24
Lotus D. Coffman, 1930-38
Arthur H. Compton, 1946-54
James B . Conant, 1934-53
Edwin B. Craighead, 1905-17
William H . Crawford, 1905-20
Sir Arthur W . Currie, 1927-33
Carter Davidson, 1946-
Arthur H . Dean, 1950-
George H . Denny, 1905-
Albert B. Dinwiddie, 1923-35
Harold W. Dodds, 1935-
Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1950-53
Charles W . Eliot, 1905-09
Edward C . Elliott, 1934 16
Sir Robert Falconer, 1917-32
Livingston Farrand, 1929-39
Frederick C . Ferry, 1920-39
Dixon Ryan Fox, 1939-45
Robert A . Franks, 1905-35
Edwin B . Fred, 1946-
Eugene A. Gilmore, 1938-48
Laurence M. Gould, 1953-
Frank P . Graham, 1932-53
A. Whitney Griswold, 1950-
R. G . Gustavson, 1949-53
Arthur T . .Hadley, 1905-21
William R. Harper, 1905-06
Rufus C . Harris, 1945-
Charlies C . Harrison, 1905-10
John G. Hibben, 1920-32
Albert R . Hiss, 1918-36
William V . Houston, 1953-
Edwin H . Hughes, 1905-08
Alexander C . Humphreys, 1905-27
Walter A. Jessup, 1932 14
David S . Jordan, 1905-16
Devereux C . Josephs, 1947-49
Henry C . King, 1905-27
Grayson L. Kirk, 1953-
James. H. Kirkland, 1917-37
Thomas S. Lamont, 1949-
Thomas W. Lamont, 1917-48
Ernest H . Lindley, 1931 40
Clarence C . Little, 1927-29
Robert A . Lovett, 1937-
Abbott Lawrence Lowell, 1910-33
Howard F. Lowry, 1948-
Norman A. M. MacKenzie, 1951-
John H. T. Main, 1924-31
Thomas McClelland, 1905-17
Samuel B . McCormick, 1905-23
Frederick A . Middlebush, 1937-
John S . Millis, 1949-
Walter C. Murray, 1918-38
William A . Neilson, 1920-46
John L . Newcomb, 1936-47
George Norlin, 1925-39
Josiah H . Penniman, 1921 11
Sir William Peterson, 1905-1.8
Samuel Plantz, 1905-24
Henry S . Pritchett, 1905-30
Nathan M. Pusey, 1953-
Ira Remsen, 1909-13
Rush Rhees, 1922-35
Jacob Gould Schurman, 1905-20
L . Clark Seelye, 1905-10
Charles Seymour, 1939-50
Kenneth C . M. Sills, 1933-52
William F . Slocum, 1906-17
Edgar F . Smith, 1913-20
Franklyn B . Snyder, 1940-49
Robert G . Sproul, 1939-
Henry Suzzallo, 1918-33
James M . Taylor, 1910-14
Charles F . Thwing, 1905-22
Alan Valentine, 1945-50
Frank A . Vanderlip, 1905-37
Charles R. Van Hise, 1909-18
Robert E. Vinson, 1920-34
Robert C. Wallace, 1938-51
Herman B . Wells, 1941-
Clement C . Williams, 1939-46
Woodrow Wilson, 1905-10
.Benjamin F. Wright, 1952-
Henry M . Wriston, 1932-
Administrative officers
Presidents
     Henry S. Pritchett, 1905-30
     Henry Suzzallo, 1930-33
     Walter A. Jessup, 1934-44
     Oliver C. Carmichael, 1945-53
     Thomas S . Lamont (president ad interim), 1953-
Secretaries
     Albert LeForest Derby, assistant secretary, 1905-06
     Walter M . Gilbert, assistant secretary, 1905-47
     John G. Bowman, 1906-11
     Clyde Furst, 1911-31
     William S . Learned, assistant secretary, 1920-31
     Howard J . Savage, 1931-49
     Paul Scherer, assistant secretary, 1947-
     Robert M. Lester (associate secretary 1947-49), 1949-
Treasurers :
     T. Morrison Carnegie, 1906-10
     Robert A . Franks, 1910-35
     Frank A . Vanderlip, 1935-37
     Howard J. Savage, 1937-49
     C . Herbert Lee, 1949-
Assistant treasurers
     John G . Bowman, 1910-11
     Clyde Furst, 1911-21
     Samuel S. Hall, Jr., 1921-39
     Devereux C . Josephs, 1939-45
     Parker Monroe, 1945-48
     C. Herbert Lee, 1948-49
Staff members
     A . Monell Sayre, 1905-13
     Abraham Flexner, 1908-12
     William S.