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M Indicates Notices of Motion that were Ruled - CONTENTS M

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					                                                      CONTENTS                                                                                                                              ii

M Indicates Notices of Motion that were Ruled Out of Order                                                                     Dr B M Radebe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     3885
in Terms of Rule 136(1)                                                                                                        Mrs F X Gasa . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .    3888
                                                                                                                               Mr M Mabuyakhulu . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          3892
                                        Thursday, 04 December 2003                                                             The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3894

ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER                                                                                                   REPORT: THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND ENVIRONMENTAL
The Speaker - No Announcements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3865                        AFFAIRS IN TERMS OF RULE 10(2)
                                                                                                                               Mr D H Makhaye . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3894
TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS
Mr S B Ngidi - Revised May 2003 Resolutions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                           3865   DEBATE: REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF HEALTH IN TERMS
Mr S B Ngidi - Resolutions on Auditor-General's 2002/2003 Report . . . . . . . .                                        3865   OF RULE 10(4)
Mr J S Ndebele - Judicial Taxi Commission of Inquiry Report . . . . . . . . . . . . .                                   3866   Mrs B S Mohlaka . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .       3907
Mr Y S Bhamjee - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                 3866   Miss V Tambo . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      3910
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3866   Mrs M Ambler-Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .            3911
Mr S B Ngidi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .    3866   Mr B V Edwards . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      3914
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3866   Mrs S Thakur-Rajbansi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .         3916
                                                                                                                               Mrs J M Downs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .       3919
NOTICES OF MOTION                                                                                                              Mr J H Slabbert . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     3920
Mr V A Volker - Roads Construction and Tugela Basin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                               3866   Mrs M Ambler-Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .            3920
Mrs M Ambler-Moore - Disabled to be Treated Equally . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                                 3867   Mrs L Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     3921
Mr M E Mthimkhulu - Support Tamil Tigers' Quest for Freedom . . . . . . . . . . .                                       3867   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3925
Mrs B S Mohlaka - Success of 2003 HIV/AIDS Indaba . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                                 3868   Mrs B S Mohlaka . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .       3925
Mr R E Keys - Vice-Chancellor for University of Natal . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                           3868   Dr Z L Mkhize . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3928
Mrs S Thakur-Rajbansi - Establish a Women's University . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                                3869
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3869   DISCUSSION: KWAZULU-NATAL ADJUSTMENT APPROPRIATION
M Mr S V Naicker - KwaDukuza Police Mortuary . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                            3869   BILL 2003/2004
Mr B V Edwards - New Complex for House of Traditional Leaders . . . . . . . . .                                         3870   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3933
Mr R E Keys - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .            3871   Mrs C M Cronje . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      3934
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3871   Inkosi S H Gumede . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .         3934
M Mr J Krog - Durban to East London Toll Road . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                             3871   Mr R E Keys . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3935
Mrs W G Thusi - Minister of Health Report at HIV/AIDS Indaba . . . . . . . . . . . .                                    3872   Mr B V Edwards . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      3935
Mrs E E N kaNkosi-Shandu - Plight of Community of Banakile . . . . . . . . . . . . .                                    3872   Mrs S Thakur-Rajbansi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .         3935
Mr A Rajbansi - Extend Financial Assistance to all Groups . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                               3873   Mr J H Slabbert . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     3935
Mr M S Malakoana - Officials not to Abuse Positions for Political Gain . . . . . .                                      3873   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3935
Mr J S Ndebele - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .               3874
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3874                             The Business of the House Suspended at 12:46
Prof M N Khubisa - Members to Respect Traditional Leaders . . . . . . . . . . . . .                                     3875                                           Resumed at 13:53
Miss L F Shabalala - Members not to Abuse Powers of the House . . . . . . . . .                                         3875
Dr B M Radebe - Department of Transport Fighting Poverty . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                                    3876   DEBATE: REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND CULTURE
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3877   IN TERMS OF RULE 10(4)
                                                                                                                               Prof L B G Ndabandaba . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .           3935
DEBATE: REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS IN TERMS                                                                        Prof M N Khubisa . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      3938
OF RULE 10(4)                                                                                                                  The Speaker - Use of Cellphones . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                 3938
Mr J S Vilane . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3877   Mr R E Keys . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3941
Mr B V Edwards . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      3878   Mr B V Edwards . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      3942
Mr A Rajbansi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     3880   Mr A Rajbansi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3945
Mrs J M Downs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .       3881   Mrs J M Downs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .       3947
Mr J H Slabbert . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     3882   The Acting Speaker - Finance Portfolio Committee Meeting . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                                    3948
Mr A Christians . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     3883   Mr J H Slabbert . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     3949
                                                              iii                                                                                                                             iv

Mr R E Keys . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .    3949   Miss G N Swartbooi - Question . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3983
Mr S B Ngidi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     3952   The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3984
Mrs F X Gasa - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .              3955
The Acting Speaker - Eating in the House . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                       3956   DEBATE: REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF SOCIAL WELFARE AND
Mr M E Mthimkhulu . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          3956   POPULATION DEVELOPMENT IN TERMS OF RULE 10(4)
Mr S B Ngidi - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .              3957   Miss Z M Ludidi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .       3984
The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .         3958   Mr W Mcoyi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      3986
Mr M E Mthimkhulu - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                     3959   Mrs N P Nkonyeni - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                   3987
The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .         3959   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     3987
Mr N Singh . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3959   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     3989
Mr M E Mthimkhulu - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                     3962   Mrs F X Gasa - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .               3989
The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .         3962   Mrs N P Nkonyeni . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          3989
The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .         3966   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     3989
Mr A Rajbansi - Question . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .             3966   The Speaker - Invites Members to Christmas Function . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                                 3989
                                                                                                                                Mrs M Ambler-Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .              3990
EXPLANATION IN TERMS OF RULE 106                                                                                                Mr B V Edwards . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .        3992
The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .         3968   Mrs S Thakur-Rajbansi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .           3994
Mr M E Mthimkhulu . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          3968   Mrs J M Downs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .         3996
Mr M S Malakoana - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                    3969   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     3997
The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .         3969   Mr J H Slabbert . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .       3997
                                                                                                                                Mrs M Ambler-Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .              3997
DEBATE: REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF HOUSING IN TERMS                                                                              Dr B M Radebe - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                  3998
OF RULE 10(4)                                                                                                                   The Speaker - Mrs Ambler-Moore to withdraw Statement . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                                      3999
The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .         3969   Mrs M Ambler-Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .              3999
Mr A Rajbansi - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .               3969   Mrs F X Gasa . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      3999
The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .         3970   Miss Z M Ludidi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .       4004
Miss G N Swartbooi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .           3970   The Speaker - Order in the House . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                  4006
Mr S V Naicker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     3971   Prince G L Zulu . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4006
                                                                                                                                The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4011
DISCUSSION ON THE SPEAKER'S LIST
Mr A Rajbansi - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .               3974   REPORT: THE MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND
The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .         3974   TOURISM IN TERMS OF RULE 10(2)
Mr A Rajbansi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      3974   Mr R M Burrows . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4012
The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .         3974   The Speaker - Standing Committee on Discipline and Ethics Meeting . . . . . . . 4021
Inkosi S H Gumede . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          3975
Mr A Rajbansi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      3975   DEBATE: PUBLIC ACCOUNTS RESOLUTIONS
Inkosi S H Gumede . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          3975   Mr S B Ngidi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .    4021
Mr A Rajbansi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      3975   Mrs B Scott . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4024
The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .         3975   The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          4024
                                                                                                                                Mr J F Aulsebrook - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                  4024
RESUMED DEBATE: REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF HOUSING                                                                               The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          4028
IN TERMS OF RULE 10(4)                                                                                                          Mr H Bekker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4028
Mr A Christians . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      3975   Mr R E Keys . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4031
Mr V A Volker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      3977   The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          4032
Mr A Rajbansi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      3978   Mr M E Mthimkhulu - Question . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                  4033
Mr A Rajbansi - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .               3979   Mrs B Scott - Question . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          4033
Mr J S Vilane . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .    3979   The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          4033
Rev N W Ngcobo . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .         3981   Mr S B Ngidi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .    4035
The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .         3983   Mrs C M Cronje . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .        4038
                                                              v                                                                                                                              vi

The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .        4039   Mrs C M Cronje . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .        4054
Mr R E Keys - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .            4039   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4054
Mr S B Ngidi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .    4042   Mrs E E N kaNkosi-Shandu . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                4054
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4043   Mr R E Keys . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4054
The Public Accounts Resolutions - Adopted . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                           4043   Mr B V Edwards . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .        4055
                                                                                                                               Mr J H Slabbert . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .       4055
EXPLANATION IN TERMS OF RULE 106                                                                                               The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4055
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4043
Dr B M Radebe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4043         NOTICES OF MOTION
                                                                                                                               Prof L B G Ndabandaba - Condemns Trafficking in Human Organs . . . . . . . . .                                            4055
RULING ON COMMENTS RE ARMOURED VEHICLE                                                                                         Mrs M Ambler-Moore - Stop Attacks on Women and Children . . . . . . . . . . . .                                           4055
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4044     Mr J F Aulsebrook - Congratulates the Premier & Provincial AIDS Council . . .                                             4056
Mr M B Gwala . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4046        Mr M B Gwala - Award to Princess Mamonga . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                              4056
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4046     Mr M S Malakoana - Award to Inkosi M G Buthelezi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                                4057
                                                                                                                               Mr K Panday - Congratulates the Premier on AIDS Indaba . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                                    4059
ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER
The Speaker - Invites Members to Christmas Function . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4047                                   ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER
                                                                                                                               The Speaker - Finance Portfolio Committee Meeting . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4059
ADJOURNMENT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4047
                                                                                                                               DEBATE: REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND
                                           Friday, 5 December 2003                                                             ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS IN TERMS OF RULE 10(4)
                                                                                                                               The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4060
ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER                                                                                                   Mrs E E N kaNkosi-Shandu . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                4060
The Speaker - Withdrawal of KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill 2003 . . . . . . . 4048                                           The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4060
Withdrawal of the KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill 2003 -                                                                      Mr S V Naicker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      4060
Agreed To . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4049     Mrs N P Nkonyeni . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          4062
                                                                                                                               The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4064
ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE PREMIER                                                                                                   Mr V A Volker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4064
The Premier - No Announcements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4049                      The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4065
                                                                                                                               Mr J Krog . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4065
TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS                                                                                                   Mr M M Mackenzie . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          4067
Mr M S Malakoana - Report - American Council of Young Leaders . . . . . . . . . 4050                                           Mrs E E N kaNkosi-Shandu . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                4069
                                                                                                                               Mr D H Makhaye . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          4071
NOTICES OF MOTION                                                                                                              Mrs C M Cronje - Changes to the Order Paper . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                           4074
SUSPENSION OF STANDING RULES 160 & 183                                                                                         The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4074
Mr P M Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4050
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4053   DEBATE: REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF TRADITIONAL AND
Mrs C M Cronje . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      4053   LOCAL GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS AND SAFETY AND SECURITY
Mr G B Bhengu . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .       4053   IN TERMS OF RULE 10(4)
Mr R E Keys . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4053   Mrs M Ambler-Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .              4075
Mr B V Edwards . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      4053   Mr A Rajbansi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4076
Mr J H Slabbert . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4053   The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          4076
Suspension of Standing Rules 160 and 183 - Agreed To . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                                    4053   The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          4078
                                                                                                                               Mr K Panday . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4078
KWAZULU-NATAL ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION BILL, 2003                                                                             Mr Y S Bhamjee . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .        4081
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4053     Inkosi N J Ngubane . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          4086
Bill Referred to Portfolio Committee . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4053                    Mrs N P Nkonyeni - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                   4087
                                                                                                                               The Acting Speaker - Order in the House . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                       4088
DISCUSSION ON CHANGES TO THE ORDER PAPER                                                                                       The Acting Speaker - Inkosi Ngubane to Withdraw Statement . . . . . . . . . . . . .                                       4088
                                                              vii                                                                                                                             viii

Inkosi N J Ngubane - Withdraws Statement . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4088                              The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4150
                                                                                                                                 Mr B H Cele - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .              4150
EXPLANATION IN TERMS OF RULE 106                                                                                                 The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4151
The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4091            Mr V C Xaba - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .              4151
                                                                                                                                 Mr B H Cele - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .              4152
CHANGES TO THE SPEAKER'S LIST                                                                                                    The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4152
The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4092            Mrs B Scott - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .              4153
Mr R E Keys . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4093         The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4154
The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4093            Mrs L Johnson - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                4154
                                                                                                                                 The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4154
DEBATE: REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF ECONOMIC                                                                                       Mr D H Makhaye - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                   4156
DEVELOPMENT AND TOURISM IN TERMS OF RULE 10(4)                                                                                   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4156
Mrs N P Nkonyeni . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          4093   Mrs B Scott - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .              4156
Mr J Krog . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4095   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4157
Mr B V Edwards . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .        4096   Mr M E Mthimkhulu - Question . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                  4157
Mrs S Thakur-Rajbansi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .             4098   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4157
Mr J H Slabbert . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .       4099   Mrs B Scott . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4159
Mr M R Mzobe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .        4099   Mrs E E N kaNkosi-Shandu - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                         4162
Mr M M Mackenzie . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .            4101   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4162
Mr R M Burrows . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          4103   Mrs E E N kaNkosi-Shandu - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                         4163
The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          4107   Mrs C M Cronje - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                 4163
                                                                                                                                 The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4164
GENERAL DEBATE: THE KWAZULU-NATAL ADJUSTMENTS                                                                                    Mr N Singh - Question . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .           4167
APPROPRIATION 2003/2004 BILL                                                                                                     The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4167
The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          4107
Mr V C Xaba . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4107   EXPLANATION IN TERMS OF RULE 106
The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          4115   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4169
The Acting Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          4116   Mrs C M Cronje . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .        4169
Mrs C M Cronje . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .        4116   Mrs E E N kaNkosi-Shandu . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                4170
Mr J F Aulsebrook . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .         4121   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4170
Mr J Krog . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4125   Mr R E Keys - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .              4171
Mr V A Volker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .       4129   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4171
Mr M E Mthimkhulu . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .           4131   Mr D H Makhaye - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                   4171
Mr M B Gwala . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .        4135   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4172

                          The Business of the House Suspended at 12:56                                                           RESUMED DEBATE: THE KWAZULU-NATAL ADJUSTMENTS
                                        Resumed at 14:07                                                                         APPROPRIATION 2003/2004 BILL
                                                                                                                                 Mr V C Xaba . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4172
RESUMED DEBATE: THE KWAZULU-NATAL ADJUSTMENTS                                                                                    Mr S B Ngidi - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .             4173
APPROPRIATION 2003/2004 BILL                                                                                                     The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4173
Mrs S Thakur-Rajbansi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .             4141   Mr J F Aulsebrook - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                  4174
Mr J H Slabbert . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .       4143   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4174
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4145   Mr J Krog - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .            4175
Mr B H Cele - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .              4145   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4175
Mr J Krog . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4145
Mr S B Ngidi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      4148
Mrs C M Cronje - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                 4149
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4149   EXPLANATION IN TERMS OF RULE 106
Mr B H Cele - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .              4150   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4176
                                                              ix                                                                                                                             x

Mr S B Ngidi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4176       The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4196
Mrs C M Cronje - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4177                  Mr A Rajbansi - Question . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .          4199
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4177      The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4199
                                                                                                                                Mr E S Mchunu . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .       4201
RESUMED DEBATE: THE KWAZULU-NATAL ADJUSTMENTS                                                                                   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4202
APPROPRIATION 2003/2004 BILL                                                                                                    Amendments to Motion - Agreed To . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                      4202
Mr P M Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .    4178
Mrs C M Cronje . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .       4178   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4202
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .    4178
Mr P M Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .    4178   The Motion to Designate Members for Liason with
Mrs B Scott - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .             4182   Amendments - Agreed To . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4202
Mr A Rajbansi - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .               4184
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .    4185   Inkosi S H Gumede - Calls for a Division . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                    4202
Mrs C M Cronje - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                4185   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4202
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .    4185   Mr V A Volker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4202
                                                                                                                                Mrs C M Cronje . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      4203
KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Legislature Finance Portfolio                                                                          Inkosi S H Gumede . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .         4203
Committee 2003 Midyear Expenditure Review Report - Adopted . . . . . . . . . 4185                                               Mr R E Keys . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4203
                                                                                                                                Mr A Rajbansi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4203
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4185      Mr J H Slabbert . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4204
                                                                                                                                The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4204
Portfolio Committee Report on the KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments                                                                     On Division the Amended Motion to Designate Members
Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill - Adopted . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4185                         for Liaison - Agreed To by 38 For and 29 Against . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                            4204

The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4186

KwaZulu-Natal Adjustment Appropriation Bill, 2003 - Passed . . . . . . . . . . . . 4186

EXPLANATION IN TERMS OF RULE 106                                                                                                BEST WISHES FOR THE FESTIVE SEASON
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .    4187   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4204
Mrs B Scott . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .    4187   The Premier . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4205
Mr P M Miller - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .               4187   Mr J S Ndebele . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      4205
Mrs C M Cronje . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .       4187   Mr R E Keys . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4206
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .    4188   Mr V A Volker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4206
Mrs C M Cronje - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                4188   Mr A Rajbansi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4207
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .    4188   Mr J H Slabbert . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     4207
Mrs C M Cronje . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .       4188   The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4207
Mrs B Scott . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .    4189   The Premier . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4208
Mr P M Miller - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .               4189
The Speaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .    4189   ADJOURNMENT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4208

MOTION: DESIGNATE MEMBERS FOR LIAISON
Mr E S Mchunu . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .        4190
Mr R E Keys . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .    4192
Mr V A Volker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      4194
Mr A Rajbansi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      4195
Mr J H Slabbert . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .      4196
Mr N Singh . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4196
Mr J H Slabbert - Point of Order . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .               4196
                                  REGISTER                                                                    2

                                                                             Rule 98: 29, 37, 501, 671, 672, 1535, 2865, 2869, 2871
                 VOLUME              PAGE -            PAGE                  Rule 101: 3135
                                                                             Rule 106: 2356, 2870, 2871, 2872, 2873, 4043, 4169, 4170, 4171, 4172,
                  1 2003               1                344                    4176, 4177, 4187, 4188, 4189
                                                                             Rule 117: 1150, 1151
                  2 2003              345               692                  Rule 136(1) (2) & (4): 1548, 1759, 1974
                                                                             Photo Session: 65
                  3 2003              693               961                  Briefing Trafficking of Children: 118
                                                                             Sub-Committee on Rules Meeting: 302
                                                                             Adjournment: 344
                  4 2003              963              1350                  Licence Conversions: 394
                                                                             Introduces New Members: 512
                  5 2003              1351             1753                  Absence of the Deputy Speaker: 538
                                                                             Removal of Vehicle: 577, 596, 624, 1147
                  6 2003              1755             1969                  Mr Makhaye to withdraw Statement re Mr Keys: 693
                                                                             Requests Prince Zulu to Apologise: 700
                  7 2003              1971             2179                  Progress Report on Administration of Legislature: 848
                                                                             Welcomes Mr Mabona from Mpumalanga Province: 861
                  8 2003              2181             2430                  Starting Time of Next Sitting: 961, 2355
                                                                             Extended Whips Meeting: 1257
                  9 2003              2431             2702                  Funeral Service - Mr Malusi Mnguni: 1257
                                                                             Apologises to Members - Caucus Rooms Locked: 1257
                                                                             Length of Notices of Motion: 1266, 2799
                  10 2003             2703             3143                  Cocktail Party: 1546
                                                                             Complaints: Mrs Nkonyeni and Mrs Blose: 1547
                  11 2003             ALL           QUESTIONS                Launch of the Legislature Website: 1909
                                                                             HIV/AIDS Workshop: 1910
                  12 2003             3145             3556                  Letter of Apology from Mr T D Ntombela: 2108
                                                                             Members to Collect Driver's Licences: 2126
                  13 2003             3557             3863                  Economic Development & Tourism Portfolio Committee Meeting: 2322, 3370
                                                                             Lost and Found: 2322, 2324, 3370
                  14 2003             ALL           QUESTIONS                Mr Malakoana to Withdraw Statement: 2347, 2369, 2370
                                                                             Explains Adjournment: 2352
                                                                             Executive Board Meeting: 2355, 2792, 2873
                  15 2003             3865             4208                  Briefing by the Commissioner: 2355
                                                                             Orders Mr Malakoana to Leave the House: 2371
M Indicates Notices of Motion that were Ruled Out of Order                   Quorum Requirements: 2431
   in Terms of Rule 136(1)                                                   Use of Cellphones: 2704, 3938
                                                                             Introduces Mr W Mcoyi: 2713
Opening of Parliament by His Majesty the King: 65                            Explains Absence of the Speaker and Deputy Speaker: 2719, 3164
                                                                             Members to Return Budget Statements: 2719
THE SPEAKER:                                                                 Requests Meeting with Mr Keys and Mr Rajbansi: 2808
 Opening Address by His Majesty the King: 78                                 Mr Keys to Withdraw Statement: 2874
 Vote of Thanks to His Majesty the King: 80                                  Technical Problem: 2887
 Obituaries and Other Ceremonial Matters:                                    Delayed Start: 3305
   Passing Away of Mr M L Mgunu: 538                                         Lunch Adjournment: 3399, 3787
   Passing Away of Mr V B Ndlovu's Daughter: 1910                            Whistling in the House: 3415
   Passing Away of Dr D R B Madide: 2703                                     Requests Mr Makhaye to Withdraw Statement: 3521
 Announcements: 2109, 3054                                                   Unparliamentary Language: 3521
   No Announcements: 80, 81, 288, 345, 963, 1157, 1258, 1351, 1616, 1756,    To make Announcements after Lunch: 3557
    1910, 1971, 2110, 2152, 2289, 2432, 2605, 2703, 2793, 3145, 3507,        Parliamentary Executive Board Meeting: 3620
    3700, 3865                                                               Requests Mr Rajbansi to Withdraw Remark: 3621, 3622
   Welcomes Mr S Qoma: 1                                                     Breaking the Line: 3821
   Applause: 8, 11, 32                                                       Invites Members to Christmas Function: 3989, 4047
   Speaker's List: 8, 313, 3694                                              Mrs Ambler-Moore to withdraw Statement: 3999
   Respect Decorum of the House: 11                                          Standing Committee on Discipline and Ethics Meeting: 4021
   Order in the House: 24, 59, 62, 472, 508, 701, 1153, 2097, 2371, 3063,    Finance Portfolio Committee Meeting: 4059
    3086, 3088, 3108, 3551, 3769, 4006                                       Best Wishes for the Festive Season: 4204, 4207
   Rule 32: 3143                                                            Announcements by the Premier: 5, 1259, 1263, 1969, 2432
   Rule 38: 2866                                                             Premier not Present: 512, 1157, 1258, 1548, 1971, 2110, 2432, 3700
                                       3                                                                                    4

Tabling of Reports: 346, 695, 1759, 1760, 2110, 3866                                     3418, 3419, 3420
  KZT Report Referred to Joint Committees: 512                                          Disciplinary Enquiries Against Members of the Legislature: 3528, 3529, 3530,
  Strategic Plan for the Provincial Parliament: 1911                                     3531, 3533
  Annual Report: KZN Parliament, 2002/03: 3320                                          Appointment of Additional Government Members to the Development Tribunal:
  Finance Portfolio Committee Midyear Expenditure Review: 3574, 3575, 3592               3618, 3619
Bills:                                                                                  From Executive Board in Respect of the Occupation of LA Flats in Ulundi: 3764,
  KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                                3768, 3769, 3773, 3786
     Budget Debate: 551, 606, 610, 611, 613, 615, 636, 642, 663, 692                    Designate Members for Liaison: 4196, 4199, 4202, 4204
     Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 2172                                          Debates:
     Vote 2: The Provincial Legislature: 1915, 1964, 1968, 1969, 2172                   State of the Province Address by the Premier: 118
     Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1752, 1753, 2173                                The Statement by the Premier: 1534, 1535, 1536, 1539, 1546
     Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1127, 2173                 Report by the Premier: 29, 33, 36, 38, 63, 64, 3607, 3679, 3680
     Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2076, 2077, 2174                      Report: Minister of Health: 430, 2323, 2652, 2657, 2658, 2664, 3925
     Vote 6: Provincial Treasury: 1908, 2174, 2175                                      Report: Minister of Housing: 475, 478, 2308, 2444, 3617
     Vote 7: Department of Health: 847, 2175                                            Report: Minister of Public Works: 3862, 3894
     Vote 8: Department of Housing: 2175, 2176                                          Report: Minister of Transport: 2324, 2331, 2338, 2372, 2374, 2887,
     Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1256, 2176                               2888, 2892, 2893, 2894, 2908, 2909, 2912, 2920, 3326, 3327, 3337
     Vote 10: The Royal Household: 2176                                                 Report: Minister of Education and Culture: 2626, 2627, 2644, 2645
     Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1522, 2177                             Report: Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and
     Vote 12: Department of Transport: 960, 2177                                         Security: 2921, 2923, 2925, 3764
     Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1350,            Report: Minister of Social Welfare & Population Development: 3371, 3372,
      2177, 2178                                                                         3987, 3989, 3997, 4011
     Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1603, 2178, 2179                              Report: Minister of Agriculture & Environmental Affairs: 4060, 4064, 4065,
  The KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                            4074
     Withdrawal of the Bill: 2162                                                       Report as per Motion by Mrs J M Downs: 3092, 3105, 3106
  The Amended KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003: 2167, 2168, 2171,                 Safety and Security Study Tour Report: 2792
   2179                                                                                 Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Fourth
  KwaZulu-Natal Petitions Bill, 2003: 3839                                              Amendment Bill (B69B-2002): 490, 497, 504, 509, 510
  KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation Bill, 2003: 3933, 3935, 4053,                 Voting Mandate on the Constitution of South Africa Fourth Amendment Bill
     4145, 4149, 4150, 4151, 4152, 4154, 4156, 4157, 4162, 4164, 4167,                  [B69B-2003]: 536, 537
     4173, 4174, 4175, 4178, 4185, 4186                                                 The Trafficking of Women and Children: 2098, 2101, 2102, 2108
  Withdrawal of KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill 2003: 4048                             Resolution of the Executive Board on Ulundi Flats: 3534
Notices of Bills or Motion: 20, 21, 92, 301, 359, 517, 551, 703, 858, 860, 861,         Legislative Proposal: Restriction of Access to Public Places: 3546, 3547, 3548,
  862, 1163, 1264, 1269, 1357, 1623, 1759, 1978, 2115, 2297, 2298, 2300,2369,            3549, 3552, 3553, 3554
  2438, 2443, 2614, 2620, 2719, 2795, 2797, 2805, 2806, 2807,2808, 2877, 2878,          Resolution in Respect of the Appointment of the Public Service Commissioner:
  2879, 3062, 3063, 3065, 3067, 3070, 3156, 3164,                                        3692, 3695, 3697, 3699
  3318, 3319, 3320, 3513, 3520, 3522, 3523, 3568, 3633, 3710, 3712,                     Public Accounts Resolutions: 4043
  3869, 3871, 3874, 3877                                                              Discussions:
  Amendment to Notice of Motion: 1623                                                   Amendments to the Order Paper: 9
  NCOP Delegates: 1603, 1606, 1607, 1608, 1610                                          Notice of Motion by Mr Gwala: 515, 519, 520, 521, 522
  The Restriction of Access to Public Places for Safety and Security Purposes Bill,     Tabling of Finance Portfolio Committee Report: 539, 540, 542
   2002: 2111                                                                           Notice of Motion by Mrs Nkonyeni: 701, 702
  Suspension of Standing Rules 160 & 183: 4053                                          Notice of Motion by Mr Rajbansi: 705, 706
Motions:                                                                                Notice of Motion by Mr Burrows: 708
  Order Paper Amended: 22,                                                              Notice of Motion by Mr Hamilton: 709
  Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 343                                                         Tabling of Strategic Plans: 710, 711
  Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1128, 1131, 1134, 1147, 1148, 1149,                   Comment by Mr Rajbansi: 712
   1155, 1156                                                                           Extension of Time for Notices of Motion: 858, 859
  Appointment of Adv D M Achtzen as Commissioner on Ethics and Members'                 Mr Miller Apologises to Mr Rajbansi: 971
   Interests: 1912                                                                      On Adjournment: 1145, 1147
  ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2412, 2426                           Changes to the Order Paper: 1550, 1551, 1552, 1553, 4054, 4055
  Consolidation of a Co-operative Government in KZN: 2526                               Parliamentary Procedure: 1553
  Remuneration of the Premier: 2608                                                     Good Wishes for Easter: 1611, 1613
  Extension for Submission of Registerable Assets of Members: 2621, 2623                Discussion on Procedure: 2160, 2161, 3618
  Matter of Public Importance - Toll Roads in KZN: 2624                                 Distribution of Speeches: 2311, 2312, 2313, 2314
  Allocation of Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees: 3125, 3127, 3128, 3129,           Comment made by Mr Malakoana: 2343, 2344, 2345, 2346, 2347, 2348,
   3133, 3134, 3136, 3137, 3138, 3139, 3140, 3141                                        2350, 2351, 2352, 2435
  Extension: Business Rehabilitation Trust Fund: 3149                                   NNP Motion: 2353, 2354
  Killing of Public Representatives: 3394, 3395, 3399                                   Delayed Start: 2431
  Robinson Manzi Commission of Enquiry Report: 3399, 3410, 3412, 3417,                  Presence of Table Staff: 2605
                                       5                                                                               6

   Comment made by Mr Keys: 2801, 2802, 2803, 2804                                Discussions:
   Comment by the Premier re Dr Mkhize: 3555                                        Sub Judice Issues Raised by Mrs Downs: 2391, 2392, 2393, 2395, 2396,
   Comment made by Inkosi Ngubane: 3713                                             2397, 2398
   Comment re Armoured Vehicle: 3715, 3716                                          Unparliamentary Language: 2517, 2518, 2519, 2520
   Lunch Adjournment: 3777, 3778                                                    Distribution of Report: 3228
   Rulings by the Speaker on Points of Order: 2920
   Rulings by the Speaker: 3621, 3622                                            THE ACTING SPEAKER:
   Ruling on Comment by Mr Malakoana: 2542                                        Announcements:
   Ruling on Comments re Armoured Vehicle: 4044, 4046                               Absence of the Speaker and Deputy Speaker: 119, 3461
                                                                                    Members to Rise in Terms of the Rules: 127
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:                                                                 New Parliamentary Cards: 132
 Announcements:                                                                     Rule 17(a): 211, 212, 279, 3450
   Order in the House: 47, 49, 2261, 2266, 2391, 2421, 2427, 2428, 2460,            Rule 97: 3046
    2496, 2498, 2510, 2514, 2521, 2522, 2601, 2830, 2931, 2946                      Rule 98: 277
   Absence of the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker: 2181, 2959, 3223, 3226            Rule 99: 3749
   Congratulates Staff on Running the Comrades: 2181                                Rule 106: 247, 2995
   Mr Christians to Withdraw Statement: 2216                                        Rule 108(3): 3751
   Apologises for Early Start: 2228                                                 Changes to the Order Paper: 221
   Uthulu Community Foundation Briefing: 2288                                       Order in the House: 261, 3453, 3480, 4088
   Explanation in Terms of Rule 106(3): 2386                                        Adjournment Time of Next Sitting Day: 286
   Speaker not to be Interrupted: 2394                                              Removal of Vehicles: 336, 342, 3206
   KZN Community Radio Stations Presentation: 2482                                  Members to Keep Financial Documents: 391
   Rule 97: 42, 43                                                                  Speaker's List: 391, 2679, 2680, 3476, 3478
   Rule 98 & 99: 2497                                                               Reference to the Speaker: 2691, 3235
   Rule 114: 2600, 2602, 2603                                                       Use of Cellphones: 2739, 3188
   Suspension of Rule 170(3): 3258                                                  Cancellation of Foreign Affairs Briefing: 3052
   Rulings by the Speaker 27 June 2003: 2695                                        CPA General Meeting: 3052
   Premier's Portfolio Committee Meeting: 2701                                      Next Sitting on 2 September 2003: 3052
   Speaker not Present: 2702                                                        Mrs Downs to Withdraw Statement: 3028
   Use of Cellphones: 2834                                                          Announcements by the Speaker: 3052
   Lunch Adjournment: 2953                                                          Technical Problem: 3172, 3231
   Changes to the Order Paper: 2953, 2954                                           Cutting of Nails: 3192
   Confidential Report: 3054                                                        Meeting of Health Portfolio Committee: 3206
   Changes to the Speaker's List: 3226                                              Lunch Adjournment: 3223
 Notice of Motion: 2192                                                             Explains Timing System: 3234
 Motions:                                                                           Members not to Abuse Rules: 3252
   IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2256, 2257, 2261, 2269, 2275, 2277, 2278,           Executive Board Meeting: 3304
    2280, 2281, 2282, 2286, 2287                                                    Withdrawal of Debate on Public Accounts: 3304
   ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2387, 2409, 2413, 2418,         Decrease in Petrol Price: 3443
    2419, 2420, 2425, 2426, 2428, 2429                                              Airconditing: 3494
   Consolidation of a Co-operative Government in KZN: 2523, 2524                    Lost and Found: 3500
   Alleviation of Poverty and Unemployment: 2564, 2576                              Motion by Mr Kubheka: 3505
   Matter of Public Importance - Toll Roads in KZN: 2590, 2596, 2599, 2600,         Finance Portfolio Committee Meeting: 3948
    2697, 2698, 2699, 2701                                                          Eating in the House: 3956
   Physical Education in School Curriculum: 2855, 2856, 2858                        Inkosi Ngubane to withdraw Statement: 4088
   Liaison: Monarch, Legislature and Cabinet: 3224, 3225, 3226                    Tabling of Report: 132
 Debates:                                                                           Report: Minister of Health: 2719, 2731
   The Premier's Report in Terms of Rule 10(4): 42                                Bills:
   Report: Minister of Transport: 2203                                              KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
   Special Debate to Celebrate Youth Month: 2206, 2208, 2216, 2217, 2228               The Budget Debate: 390
   Transport Portfolio Committee Report - Overseas Study Tour: 2235, 2254           KwaZulu-Natal Business Rehabilitation Trust Fund Amendment Bill, 2003:
   Report: Minister of Housing: 2454, 2457, 2461, 2468, 2472                         2694, 2695
   Report: Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and      KwaZulu-Natal Land Administration Bill, 2003: 3266, 3271, 3274, 3279
    Security: 2475, 2482, 2487, 2492, 2935, 2954                                    KwaZulu-Natal Adjustment Estimates Bill, 2003: 3720, 3736
   Report: Minister of Education and Culture: 2504, 2956                            KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill: 4107, 4115, 4116
   Report: Minister of Economic Development and Tourism: 2810, 2814.              Notices of Motion: 126, 128
    2823, 2826, 2829                                                              Motions:
   Report: Minister of Health: 2832, 2835, 2844, 2847                               Crime, Violence and the Death Penalty: 223
   Statement by the Deputy Speaker: 3457, 3458, 3460, 3461                          Support for the African Union and NEPAD: 269, 271, 279
   National Health Bill B32B-2003: 3256, 3257                                       Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 327, 328, 333, 343
                                        7                                                                                8

    Liaison: Monarch, Legislature and Cabinet: 3000, 3007, 3015, 3018, 3019,          Sleeping in the House: 1031, 1071, 1316
     3020                                                                             Lunch Adjournment: 1044, 1416
    1999 Coalition Agreement IFP and ANC: 3025, 3026, 3027, 3031, 3032,               Correct Terminology: 1044
     3033, 3034, 3035, 3038, 3039, 3045, 3047, 3048, 3049, 3050, 3051                 Use of Cellphone: 1047, 1279
    Robinson Manzi Commission of Enquiry Report: 3430                                 Mr Christians to Withdraw Statement: 1032
    Disciplinary Enquiries Against Members of the Legislature: 3468, 3474, 3475       Time Allocated to Members: 1068, 1346
    Allocation of Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees: 3503, 3504                    Addressing of the Chairperson: 1073
  Debates:                                                                            Airconditioning to Remain Switched on: 1084
    The Premier's State of the Province Address in Terms of Rule 10(4): 151, 165,     Precincts of Parliament Non-Smoking Area: 1096, 1099
     203                                                                              Strangers in the House: 1098
    Report by the Premier: 3655, 3656, 3657, 3658, 3659, 3660, 3661, 3664,            Ruling on Point of Order: 1105
     3671, 3672, 3673, 3675, 3676, 3677, 3678                                         Members to Respect Rules: 1126
    Report: Minister of Education and Culture: 405, 413, 415, 417, 418,               Distribution of Speech: 1269
     421, 2777, 2961, 2972, 3820, 3958, 3959, 3962, 3966                              Translation Service to be Provided: 1189
    Report: Minister of Health: 456, 3800                                             House in Committee: 1357, 1915
    Report: Minister of Housing: 458, 3969, 3970, 3983, 3984                          Traditional Affairs Debate: 1378
    Report: Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and       Translation Service: 1455, 1457, 1458
     Security: 2732, 3362, 3364, 4076, 4078                                           Mr Mthiyane to Withdraw Statement: 1479
    Report: Minister of Transport: 2753, 3165, 3168                                   Quorum Requirements: 1585, 1825
    Report: Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development: 3214,              Easter Recess: 1602
     3215                                                                             Changes to the Speaker's List: 1624
    Report: Minister of Public Works: 3456, 3736, 3742, 3853, 3854                    Strategic Plan Sub-Committee Meeting: 1624
    Report: Minister of Economic Development and Tourism: 2765, 4107                  Executive Board Meeting: 1695
    Safety and Security Study Tour Report: 2785                                       Agriculture Portfolio Committee Meeting: 1695
    Public Accounts Resolutions: 2982, 2983, 2991, 2993, 4024, 4028, 4032,            Crossing the Line: 1737, 2021
     4033, 4039                                                                       Allocated Time Expired: 1898
    NCOP Matters: 2672                                                                Mrs E E N kaNkosi-Shandu to Withdraw Statement: 1914
    National Health Bill B32B-2003: 3242, 3251, 3253, 3254, 3255, 3256, 3257          Checking Timing Clock: 1922
    Report: Public Works Portfolio Committee: 3284, 3285, 3295, 3296,                 Mr Keys to Withdraw Statement: 1937
     3297, 3301, 3302, 3303                                                           Parliamentary Liaison Officer: 2008
    Statement by the Deputy Speaker: 3481, 3483                                       Whips Meeting: 2036
    Respect Confidentiality of Reports: 3502                                          Welcomes Learners & Teachers in the House: 2042
  Discussions:                                                                        Orders Mr Ntombela to Leave the House: 2073
    Remark Made by Mr Mzobe: 246, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252, 253                        Thanks Members for the Budget Debate: 2076
    Speaker's List: 265, 266, 267, 3974, 3975, 4092, 4093                           Bill:
    Addressing the House: 272, 273, 274                                               KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
    Remark made by Mrs Ambler-Moore: 339, 340, 341                                        Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1760, 1779, 1792, 1816, 1840
    On Adjournment: 392, 393,                                                             Vote 2: The Provincial Legislature: 1930, 1951, 1968
    Prince G L Zulu's Health: 3206, 3207, 3208                                            Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1659, 1687, 1702
    Distribution of Report: 3228, 3229                                                    Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1705, 1752
    Withdrawal of Motion by Mr Rajbansi: 3230                                             Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1100, 1106,
    Procedure: 3462, 3463, 3464                                                           1107, 1115, 1124, 1127
  Explanation in Terms of Rule 106(2): 3747, 3748, 3751, 3752, 3968, 3969,                Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 1978, 2042, 2047, 2048,
     4091                                                                                 2061, 2062, 2068, 2077
                                                                                          Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1842, 1843, 1864, 1879, 1886, 1891,
THE CHAIRPERSON:                                                                          1892, 1893, 1894, 1895, 1896, 1899, 1908
 Announcements:                                                                           Vote 7: Department of Health: 766, 798, 807, 809, 812, 815, 847
   Rule 10 (3)(a) and (b): 719, 975                                                       Vote 8: Department of Housing: 972, 991, 997, 1004, 1006, 1013, 1016,
   Rule 20: 899                                                                           1029, 1031, 1032, 1034, 1041, 1042, 1044, 1049
   Rule 101: 1326                                                                         Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1163, 1189, 1205, 1207, 1217,
   Rule 53: 1328                                                                          1218, 1225, 1226, 1230, 1232, 1236, 1238, 1239, 1256
   Rule 95: 1554                                                                          Vote 10: Royal Household: 713, 722, 723, 725, 726, 732, 742, 744, 749,
   Rule 36(1): 1933, 1935                                                                 751, 752, 753, 754, 761
   Rule 33: 2076                                                                          Vote 11: Department of Traditional and Local Government Affairs: 1397,
   Order in the House: 726, 766, 808, 910, 927, 997, 1015, 1033, 1304, 1428,              1425, 1438, 1439, 1442, 1458, 1460, 1467, 1479, 1486, 1488, 1512,
    1443, 1794, 1840, 1890, 1955, 2060, 2067                                              1514, 1515, 1516, 1521, 1522
   Lost and Found: 762, 785, 1858, 1908                                                   Vote 12: Department of Transport: 862, 896, 900, 905, 906, 907, 908,
   Removal of Vehicle: 785, 1035, 1709, 2057                                              909, 915, 932, 940, 941, 959, 960
   Applause: 785, 790                                                                     Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1291,
   Reading of Newspapers: 816                                                             1299, 1301, 1312, 1329, 1331, 1343, 1350
                                      9                                                                             10

     Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1566, 1584, 1588, 1589, 1603        THE SECRETARY:
 Discussions:                                                                  Announcement:
   Distribution of Speeches: 978, 979, 1358                                      Lunch Arrangements: 80
   Remark made by Mr Christians: 1033
   Discussion in Terms of Rule 99(a)(i): 1892, 1893                           AMBLER-MOORE, Mrs M:
                                                                               Bill:
THE PREMIER:                                                                     KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
 Vote of Thanks to His Majesty the King: 78                                          Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1803
 Obituaries and Other Ceremonial Matters:                                            Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1625, 1684
   Bus Accident at Emalangeni: 1615                                                  Vote 7: Department of Health: 798, 828
   Passing Away of Mr K D Matanzima: 2181                                            Vote 10: Royal Household: 731
   Passing Away of Leader of UDM's Daughter: 2181                                    Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1394
   Passing Away of Mr S Shabalala's Father: 2289                                     Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1304,
   Passing Away of Dr D R B Madide: 2703                                             1338
   Passing Away of Mrs Sue Felgate: 3507                                       Tabling of Report:
 Announcements:                                                                  Finance Portfolio Committee Midyear Expenditure Review: 3575
   No Announcements: 64, 80, 81, 118, 343, 511, 537, 538, 694, 963, 1156,      Notices of Motion:
    1351, 1546, 1616, 1756, 1910, 2152, 2179, 2182, 2289, 2355, 2357,            Further Research into Fluoridation: 15
    2429, 2604, 2606, 2703, 2793, 2874, 3145, 3508, 3556, 3557, 4049             Agency for Social Security: 86
   New Members of the KZN Gambling Board: 119                                    Illegal Developments on KZN Coast: 129
   Withdraws Statement made on 28 November 2002: 288                             Airports to Cater for the Disabled: 351
   Democracy in KwaZulu-Natal: 850                                               Investigate Allegations against Mr Jacob Zuma: 523
   Composition of the Cabinet: 1259                                              National Minister of Health to Resign: 549
   Announces New Members of Cabinet: 1613                                        Validity of Drivers Licences: 695
   Fire Damage in the Province: 3055                                             Educate People re Waste Management: 1160
   Resolution on the Tolling of Roads: 3055                                      Signing of Global Fund Agreement: 1266
   Absence of Minister of Social Welfare: 3305                                   Pregnant Mothers to Establish their HIV Status: 1354
   Motion by Mr Kubheka: 3505                                                    Improve Government Service to the People: 1622
   16 Days of Activism Against Violence: 3623                                    M Welfare Grants to Refugees and Asylum Seekers: 2117
   Conference on HIV/AIDS: 3862                                                  Congratulates Mr Sibusiso Vilane: 2157
   Best Wishes for the Festive Season: 4205, 4208                                Dr Sutcliffe to Adhere to Legislation: 2189
 Tabling of Reports or Papers:                                                   Providing More Police: 2365
   Strategic Plan - Dept of the Royal Household: 852                             M Anti-retroviral Treatment in the Public Service: 2438
   Strategic Plan for the Office of the Premier: 1616                            President Mbeki to Dismiss Dr Shabalala-Msimang: 2708
   Report of the Office of the Premier - 2002/03: 3056                           Investigate Death of a Patient: 2885
   Financial Statements of Vote 10 - 31/03/03: 3056                              President to Acknowledge HIV/AIDS Crisis: 3153
   Annual Report: KZN Gambling Board, 2003: 3145                                 Lotto to State their Priorities: 3313
   Annual Report: Dept of Social Welfare & Population Development, 2002/03:      Storing and Distribution of Fireworks: 3512
    3306                                                                         Treat Women and Child Abuse as a Priority: 3562
 Bill:                                                                           Review 4X4 Exemptions on Beaches: 3628
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                       Disabled to be Treated Equally: 3867
       Budget Debate: 601                                                        Stop Attacks on Women and Children: 4055
       Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1760, 1835                             Point of Order: 2878, 3155
       Vote 10: Royal Household: 713, 759                                      Motions:
 Notice of Motion:                                                               Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 337, 341
   Point of Order: 3522                                                          ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2410
 Motion:                                                                         Alleviation of Poverty and Unemployment: 2564
   1999 Coalition Agreement Between IFP and ANC: 3025, 3027                      Matter of Public Importance - Toll Roads in KZN: 2584, 2590
 Debates:                                                                        Robinson Manzi Commission of Enquiry Report: 3421
   Report by the Premier: 1, 60, 3592, 3684                                      From Executive Board in Respect of the Occupation of LA Flats in Ulundi: 3773
   State of the Province Address: 92, 200                                      Debates:
   The Statement by the Premier: 1543                                            Report: Minister of Health: 431, 2653, 2836, 3911, 3920
   Report as per Motion by Mrs J M Downs: 3070, 3121                             The Trafficking of Women and Children: 2084, 2098
   Statement by the Deputy Speaker: 3459, 3460, 3476, 3481                       The Public Accounts Standing Committee Resolutions: 2137
   Legislative Proposal: Restriction of Access to Public Places: 3546            Report: Minister of Local Government and Traditional Affairs and Safety and
 Discussions:                                                                     Security: 2935, 4075
   Tabling of Strategic Plans: 711                                               National Health Bill B32B-2003: 3242, 3251
   Presence of Table Staff: 2605                                                 Report: Minister of Social Welfare & Population Development: 3370, 3990,
   Discussion on Procedure: 3618                                                  3997, 3999
                                                                                 Legislative Proposal: Restriction of Access to Public Places: 3543, 3548
                                     11                                                                                12

   Report by the Premier: 3643, 3669, 3672                                          Congratulates the Treasury Department: 2610
 Discussions:                                                                       Point of Order: 704, 1265
   Notice of Motion by Mr Hamilton: 709                                           Motion:
   Distribution of Speeches: 1358, 2312                                             ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2418
                                                                                  Debate:
AULSEBROOK, J F:                                                                    Public Accounts Resolutions: 4028
 Tabling of Reports or Papers:                                                    Discussion:
   Emandleni-Matleng Youth Training Centre Report: 1759, 1760                       Comment made by Mr Malakoana: 2433, 2435
   Appointment of the Public Service Commissioner: 3623
 Bills:                                                                          BHAMJEE, Y S:
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                        Tabling of Reports or Papers:
      Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1780, 1821                                 Point of Order: 3866
      Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1093                Bills:
      Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1864                                           KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
      Vote 10: Royal Household: 719, 729                                               Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1124
      Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1416                                    Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1038, 1042
   KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill: 4121, 4174                  Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1378, 1440
 Notices of Motion:                                                                 KwaZulu-Natal Adjustment Estimates Bill, 2003: 3720
   Wishes the South African Cricket Team Well: 20                                 Announcement by the Speaker:
   Arms Deal Payouts: 89                                                            Point of Order: 1257
   M Provincial Air Service: 2365                                                 Notices of Motion:
   First Rand to Release Report re Mac Maharaj: 2707                                The ANC Leads: 861
   ANC not to Apply Double Standards: 2882                                          Recognise all Religious Groups: 2121
   Welcomes Rise in Foreign Reserves: 3161                                          Illegal DA Posters: 2290, 2436, 2613
   Congratulates the Dept of the Premier: 3630                                      M DA's Illegal Posters: 2359
   Congratulates the Premier & Provincial AIDS Council: 4056                        Illegal DA Posters in Pietermaritzburg: 2711
                                                                                    DA failed to Contest By-Election in Richmond: 2882
 Motions:                                                                           Investigate Under-spending in the Dept of Housing: 3069
  Matter of Public Importance - Toll Roads in KZN: 2701                             Financial Management of Ezemvelo: 3312
  1999 Coalition Agreement Between IFP and ANC: 3047                                Minister of Welfare's Abuse of Taxpayers Money: 3704
 Debates:                                                                         Motions:
  State of the Province Address by the Premier: 165                                 IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2284
  Public Accounts Resolutions: 2131, 4024                                           Physical Education in School Curriculum: 2862
  Report: Minister of Safety and Security: 2487                                     Killing of Public Representatives: 3150, 3372, 3394, 3397
  Report by the Premier: 3673, 3676, 3677, 3679                                   Debates:
  Resolution in Respect of the Appointment of the Public Service Commissioner:      Report: Minister of Housing: 476, 2464
   3692, 3696, 3697                                                                 Report: Minister of Education and Culture: 2644, 2645
                                                                                    NCOP Matters: 2672
BALOYI, Dr O S:                                                                     Report: Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and
 Bill:                                                                               Security: 2732, 4081
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                          Report by the Premier: 3676, 3678
       Vote 7: Department of Health: 790, 834                                     Discussions:
       Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1458                             Distribution of Speeches: 978, 979
 Notices of Motion:                                                                 Rule 114: 2601, 2602
   The Gale Street Mortuary: 357
   Agreement with the Global Fund to be Finalised: 1158                          BHENGU, G B:
 Debate:                                                                          [Whip]
   Report: Minister of Health: 446                                                Bill:
                                                                                    KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
BEKKER, H:                                                                              Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1741
 Bills:                                                                                 Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1891
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                              Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1403
      Budget Debate: 628                                                          Notices of Motion:
      Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1074                  Opening of Parliament on 28/02/03: 84
      Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1879                                           Rule 136: Notice of Motion by Mr Rajbansi: 703
   KwaZulu-Natal Business Rehabilitation Trust Fund Amendment Bill, 2003: 2690      Good Wishes for Eid Mubarak: 3561
 Notices of Motion:                                                                 Point of Order: 1357
   Re-instatement of Ministers: 699                                                 Suspension of Standing Rules 160 & 183: 4053
   Assess Legislature Requirements: 1975                                          Motion:
   M Investigate Affairs in the Department of Housing: 2363                         Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 333
                                      13                                                                              14

 Debate:                                                                            Extension: Business Rehabilitation Trust Fund: 3149
  The Statement by the Premier: 1539                                                Robinson Manzi Commission of Enquiry Report: 3399
                                                                                    Disciplinary Enquiries Against Members of the Legislature: 3529
 Discussions:                                                                     Debates:
   Remark made by Mr Mzobe: 250, 251, 252                                           Report by the Premier: 32, 33, 51
   Addressing the House: 273                                                        State of the Province Address by the Premier: 149, 189
   Discussion in Terms of Rule 99(a)(i): 1892                                       Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Fourth
                                                                                    Amendment Bill (B69B-2002): 503, 504
BLOSE, Mrs H M:                                                                     Voting Mandate on the Constitution of South Africa Fourth Amendment Bill
 [Whip]                                                                             [B69B-2003]: 533
 Bill:                                                                              The Statement by the Premier: 1531
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                          Report: Minister of Housing: 2454
       Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1438, 1439                          Report: Minister of Economic Development and Tourism: 2754, 2824, 4012,
       Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1482, 1514, 1516                  4103
 Notice of Motion:                                                                  Report as per Motion by Mrs J M Downs: 3102
   Members to be Provided with Bodyguards: 358                                      Statement by the Deputy Speaker: 3458, 3476
 Debates:                                                                           Legislative Proposal: Restriction of Access to Public Places: 3547
   Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Fourth    Discussions:
   Amendment Bill (B69B-2002): 508                                                  Remark made by Mrs Ambler-Moore: 339, 340
   Report: Minister of Safety and Security: 3348                                    On Adjournment: 393
                                                                                    Notice of Motion by Mr Burrows: 708
BURROWS, R M:                                                                       Comment by Mr Rajbansi: 712
 [Minister of Economic Development and Tourism]                                     Extension of Time for Notices of Motion: 858
 Tabling of Reports or Papers:                                                      Distribution of Speeches: 978
   Strategic Plan for the Dept of Economic Development and Tourism: 963             Remark made by Mr Christians: 1032
   Annual Report and Financial Statements 2002/03:                                  On Rule 117: 1151
   Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 3147                             Changes to the Order Paper: 1550
   KZN Tourism Authority: 3147                                                      Parliamentary Procedure: 1553
   Ithala Finance Development Corporation: 3147                                     Good Wishes for Easter: 1612
   Trade and Investment KZN: 3147                                                   Distribution of Speeches: 2313
   Natal Sharks Board: 3147                                                         Unparliamentary Language: 2518
 Bills:                                                                             Rule 114: 2601, 2602, 2603
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                          Procedure: 3462
      Budget Debate: 642, 658                                                     Explanation in Terms of Rule 106(2): 3747
      Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1050, 1114
   The Amended KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003: 2171
   KwaZulu-Natal Business Rehabilitation Trust Fund Amendment Bill, 2003:
    2681, 2692, 2694
 Notices of Motion:
   Threat of War in Iraq: 82                                                     CELE, B H:
   Resolution of Israeli & Palestinian Conflict: 347                              Announcement by the Speaker:
   Action by the Minister of Housing: 513                                           Point of Order: 2713
   Support South Africa's Peace Initiatives: 544                                  Announcement by the Premier:
   Purchase of Four Seasons Hotel: 707                                              Point of Order: 2432
   President to Apologise to the DA: 860                                          Bills:
   Concern about Traffic Accidents: 1616                                            KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
   Commends DAs Campaign to Stop Crime: 2152                                           Budget Debate: 610, 627
   Mr Y S Bhamjee to Receive Award from the DA: 2613                                   Vote 2: The Provincial Legislature: 1960
   Calls on Dr Zuma to Resign as Deputy President: 2704                                Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1234
   Congratulate MEC for Housing: 3066                                               KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill: 4145, 4150, 4152
                                                                                  Notices of Motion:
 Motions:                                                                           Phillip Powell Should be Extradited: 2881
  Order Paper Amended: 22                                                           Point of Order: 2806, 3069
  Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 327                                                   Motions:
  Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1147, 1152                                        Crime, Violence and the Death Penalty: 240
  NCOP Delegates: 1607, 1608                                                        IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2261, 2277
  Consolidation of a Co-operative Government in KZN: 2530                           ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2400, 2429
  Matter of Public Importance - Toll Roads in KZN: 2699                             Extension for Submission of Registerable Assets of Members: 2621
  Liaison: Monarch, Legislature and Cabinet: 3007, 3015, 3225                       Liaison: Monarch, Legislature and Cabinet: 3002
  Allocation of Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees: 3128, 3137                    Killing of Public Representatives: 3383
                                      15                                                                      16

   Robinson Manzi Commission of Enquiry Report: 3418, 3419                 Report: Minister of Housing: 2458, 3975
 Debates:                                                                  Report: Minister of Safety and Security: 2479, 3355, 3362
   The Premier's Report: 63                                                Report: Minister of Public Works: 3440, 3849, 3855, 3883
   The Premier's State of the Province Address: 185                        Report: Public Works Portfolio Committee: 3291, 3302
   Special Debate to Celebrate Youth Month: 2216                           Resolution in Respect of the Appointment of the Public Service Commissioner:
   Transport Portfolio Committee Report - Overseas Study Tour: 2235        3697
   Report: Minister of Safety and Security: 2485, 3361                   Discussion:
   Report: Minister of Health: 2652                                        Remark made by Mr Christians: 1032
   Safety and Security Study Tour Report: 2789
   Report: Minister of Transport: 2909, 3338, 3341                      COLEMAN, E O:
   Legislative Proposal: Restriction of Access to Public Places: 3553    Bill:
 Discussions:                                                              KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
   Remark made by Mr Mzobe: 249, 251                                           Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1714
   Notice of Motion by Mr Gwala: 520, 521, 522                                 Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1340
   Changes to the Order Paper: 1552                                            Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1587
   Discussion on Procedure: 2161                                         Notices of Motion:
   Unparliamentary Language: 2519                                          Reserve Bank to Review Interest Rate Policy: 299
   Comment made by Mr Keys: 2803                                           Congratulates Toni Yengeni: 358
                                                                           ANC to pay its Debts: 2886
CHRISTIANS, A:                                                           Debates:
 Bills:                                                                    Report: The Public Works Portfolio Committee: 3292
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                 Report: Minister of Public Works: 3848
      Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1792, 1820
      Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1733                           COMBRINCK, H L:
      Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1009, 1031, 1033                    [Deputy Chief Whip]
      Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1191, 1226              Bill:
      Vote 10: Royal Household: 749                                        KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
      Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1472, 1490                   Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1655
      Vote 12: Department of Transport: 906, 907, 909                          Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1727
      Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1576, 1588                          Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1331
   KwaZulu-Natal Land Administration Bill, 2003: 3273                    Notice of Motion:
   KwaZulu-Natal Petitions Bill, 2003: 3829, 3833                          Speedtraps on Road to Game Auction: 2299
 Notices of Motion:                                                      Motions:
   Muslims Stranded at Airport: 12                                         NCOP Delegates: 1607
   Condemns Action of Teacher at Bulwer: 89                                IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2190, 2254, 2287
   Plight of the Youth: 121                                              Debates:
   Privatise Security at Courts: 524                                       Report: Minister of Transport: 2324
   Constitution Caters for Religious Observance: 550                       National Health Bill B32B-2003: 3256
   Residents to help Eliminate Crime: 696                                Discussions:
   Intimidation of Copesville Residents: 853                               On Speaker's List: 265, 266
   Ellis Park Tragedy: 1161                                                Extension of Time for Notices of Motion: 858
   Interception and Monitoring Act: 1355                                   Comment made by Mr Malakoana: 2347
   Disband National Youth Commission: 1549
   Launch of the Legislature Website: 1913                              CRONJE, Mrs C M:
   Behaviour of Students at Stellenbosch University: 1975                [Chief Whip]
   Condemn Conduct of Certain Taxi Operators: 2119                       Announcements by the Premier: 2432
   Thanks to Plessislaer Police Commissioner: 2159                         Point of Order: 1258
   NNP Action in Cloetesville By-Election: 2183                          Bills:
   Fast track Child Pornography Hotline: 2296                              KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
   Delays in Implementing AIDS Treatment: 2362                                Budget Debate: 610, 611, 612
   M ANC to Recall Anti-Terrorism Legislation: 2442                           Vote 2: The Provincial Legislature: 1922
   Roll Back Inflexible Labour Laws: 2609                                     Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1842, 1858, 1891, 1894, 1895, 1898,
   Appointments of People Charged with Corruption: 3068                        1899
   Amendments to the Film and Publications Act: 3162                          Vote 12: Department of Transport: 908
   Release Crime Figures: 3311                                             KwaZulu-Natal Business Rehabilitation Trust Fund Amendment Bill, 2003: 2694
 Motion:                                                                   KwaZulu-Natal Adjustment Estimates Bill, 2003: 3720
   Crime, Violence and the Death Penalty: 227                              KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill: 3934, 4116, 4149,
 Debates:                                                                   4163, 4178, 4185
   The Public Accounts Standing Committee Resolutions: 2141              Notices of Motion:
   Special Debate to Celebrate Youth Month: 2212, 2216, 2217               Respect the Constitution of the RSA: 970
                                     17                                                                                   18

  DA's Abuse of the IFP: 2292                                                         Rulings by the Speaker: 3622
  Suspension of Standing Rules 160 & 183: 4053                                        Lunch Adjournment: 3777
                                                                                    Explanation in Terms of Rule 106: 4169, 4177, 4187, 4188
Motions:                                                                            Point of Order: 344
  NCOP Delegates: 1603, 1610
  Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1128, 1151                                       DOWNS, Mrs J M:
  IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2279, 2280, 2281, 2282                               Announcement by the Premier:
  Remuneration of the Premier: 2607                                                   Point of Order: 1263
  Extension for Submission of Registerable Assets of Members: 2622                  Bill:
  Matter of Public Importance - Toll Roads in KZN: 2589, 2596, 2598, 2698,            KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
   2700                                                                                   Budget Debate: 620
  Liaison: Monarch, Legislature and Cabinet: 3020, 3224, 3225                             Vote 2: The Provincial Legislature: 1938
  Allocation of Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees: 3125, 3503                          Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1725
  Disciplinary Enquiries Against Members of the Legislature: 3465, 3475, 3523,            Vote 7: Department of Health: 820
   3528, 3531                                                                             Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1019
  Appointment of Additional Government Members to the Development Tribunal:               Vote 10: Royal Household: 738
   3618, 3619                                                                             Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1410
  From Executive Board in Respect of the Occupation of LA Flats in Ulundi: 3765,          Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1319
   3769, 3782                                                                       Notices of Motion:
  Designate Members for Liaison: 4203                                                 Review the Building of the Prospecton Toll: 294
Debates:                                                                              MEC of Welfare to Re-prioritise Budget: 1268
  The Premier's State of the Province Address: 151                                    Possible Removal of Christian Holidays: 2116
  Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Fourth         ACDP is an Up and Coming Party: 2882
  Amendment Bill (B69B-2002): 494, 503, 509                                         Motions:
  Voting Mandate on the Constitution of South Africa Fourth Amendment Bill            Crime, Violence and the Death Penalty: 236
  [B69B-2003]: 526, 536                                                               Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 313, 325
  NCOP Matters: 2680                                                                  Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1130, 1142, 1154
  National Health Bill B32B-2003: 3255                                                IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2273
  Report: Minister of Housing: 2444                                                   ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2291, 2388, 2399, 2424,
  Report: Minister of Education and Culture: 2496                                      2426, 2427
  Report: Minister of Health: 2658                                                    Consolidation of a Co-operative Government in KZN: 2515
  Report: Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and         Alleviation of Poverty and Unemployment: 2558
   Security: 2954                                                                     Matter of Public Importance - Toll Roads in KZN: 2581
  Public Accounts Resolutions: 2989, 4038                                             Liaison: Monarch, Legislature and Cabinet: 3000
  Statement by the Deputy Speaker: 3459, 3460, 3461                                   1999 Coalition Agreement Between IFP and ANC: 3021, 3028, 3031, 3033,
  Respect Confidentiality of Reports: 3487                                             3034, 3039, 3048, 3051
  Resolution of the Executive Board on Ulundi Flats: 3533, 3534                       Allocation of Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees: 3127, 3505
  Legislative Proposal: Restriction of Access to Public Places: 3546, 3552            Robinson Manzi Commission of Enquiry Report: 3414
  Report by the Premier: 3679, 3680                                                   Disciplinary Enquiries Against Members of the Legislature: 3472, 3475, 3529,
  Resolution in Respect of the Appointment of the Public Service Commissioner:         3532
   3695                                                                             Debates:
Discussions:                                                                          State of the Province Address by the Premier: 160
  On Speaker's List: 265, 266, 267, 3227                                              Report: Minister of Education and Culture: 408, 2961, 3947
  Remark made by Mrs Ambler-Moore: 339                                                Report: Minister of Health: 440, 2834, 3919
  On Adjournment: 392, 1145                                                           Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Fourth
  Tabling of Finance Portfolio Committee Report: 540                                      Amendment Bill (B69B-2002): 508
  Notice of Motion by Mr Rajbansi: 706                                                The Statement by the Premier: 1540
  Speaker to Attend to Outstanding Rulings: 706                                       The Public Accounts Standing Committee Resolutions: 2136, 2981
  On Rule 117: 1150                                                                   Special Debate to Celebrate Youth Month: 2206
  Changes to the Order Paper: 1550, 2323, 4054, 4074                                  Transport Portfolio Committee Report - Overseas Study Tour: 2242
  Discussion in Terms of Rule 99(a)(i): 1892                                          Safety and Security Study Tour Report: 2786
  Distribution of Speeches: 2313                                                      Report: Minister of Economic Development and Tourism: 2812
  Comment made by Mr Malakoana: 2344, 2346, 2348                                      Report: Minister of Transport: 2895
  NNP Motion: 2354                                                                    Report: Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and
  Delayed Start: 2431                                                                  Security: 2934
  Unparliamentary Language: 2518, 2522                                                Report: Minister of Public Works: 3437, 3881
  Rule 114: 2600                                                                      Report as per Motion by Mrs J M Downs: 3097
  Comment made by Mr Keys: 2804                                                       Statement by the Deputy Speaker: 3461, 3479
  Discussion on Procedure: 3462, 3463, 3617, 3618                                     Respect Confidentiality of Reports: 3493
  Changes to the Programme: 3620                                                      Resolution of the Executive Board on Ulundi Flats: 3534
                                     19                                                                                20

   Legislative Proposal: Restriction of Access to Public Places: 3549               Report: Minister of Education and Culture: 402, 2629, 3942
   Report by the Premier: 3663                                                      Report: Minister of Health: 435, 2647, 3914
   Report: Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development: 3996              Transport Portfolio Committee Report - Overseas Study Tour: 2238
 Discussions:                                                                       Report: Minister of Transport: 2328, 3329
   On Adjournment: 393, 1146                                                        Report: Minister of Housing: 2451
   Tabling of Finance Portfolio Committee Report: 540, 541, 542                     Report: Minister of Public Works: 3433, 3851, 3878
   Extension of Time for Notices of Motion: 859                                     Report: Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development: 3992
   Changes to the Order Paper: 1551                                                 Report: Minister of Economic Development and Tourism: 4096
   Sub Judice Issues Raised by Mrs Downs: 2392, 2395, 2396, 2398                    National Health Bill B32B-2003: 3237
   Procedure: 3463                                                                  Report: The Public Works Portfolio Committee: 3288
                                                                                    Resolution of the Executive Board on Ulundi Flats: 3534
EDWARDS, B V:                                                                       Resolution in Respect of the Appointment of the Public Service Commissioner:
 Bills:                                                                             3697
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
      Budget Debate: 654
      Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1816                                     Discussions:
      Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1664                             Speaker's List: 265, 3227
      Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1080                  On Adjournment: 393
      Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2024                             Extension of Time for Notices of Motion: 858
      Vote 7: Department of Health: 802                                             NNP Motion: 2354
      Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1189                               Prince G L Zulu's Health: 3206
      Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1425                                 Withdrawal of Motion by Mr Rajbansi: 3229, 3230
      Vote 12: Department of Transport: 899                                         Changes to the Order Paper: 4055
      Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1304,
       1336                                                                      GABELA, L S:
      Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1579                                   Bill:
   KwaZulu-Natal Business Rehabilitation Trust Fund Amendment Bill, 2003: 2689      KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
   KwaZulu-Natal Petitions Bill, 2003: 3829                                             Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1826
   KwaZulu-Natal Adjustment Appropriation Bill 2003/2004: 3935                          Vote 10: Royal Household: 755
 Notices of Motion:                                                                     Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1384
   Promote Democracy in African Countries: 14                                     Debates:
   Investigate Commodity Price Increases: 297                                       Report: Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and
   End the War in Iraq: 545                                                          Security: 2942
   State of Mens Toilets: 856                                                       Report: The Public Works Portfolio Committee: 3294
   M School Feeding Schemes to be Managed Efficiently: 2114                         Resolution in Respect of the Appointment of the Public Service Commissioner:
   M Questions the DA Leadership: 2155                                               3695
   Create a Climate for Economic Development: 2182
   Corruption and Fraud in Dept of Social Welfare: 3152                          GASA, Mrs F X:
   M Over-expenditure in Dept of Social Welfare: 3516                             Bill:
   M Referendum on the Death Sentence: 3624                                         KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
   Referendum on the Death Sentence: 3711                                               Vote 7: Department of Health: 809, 816
   New Complex for House of Traditional Leaders: 3870                                   Vote 10: Royal Household: 725, 726
   Suspension of Standing Rules 160 & 183: 4053                                         Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1313
 Motions:                                                                               Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1573
   Order Paper Amended: 22                                                        Notices of Motion:
   Crime, Violence and the Death Penalty: 222                                       Congratulates the Premier: 131
   Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 320                                                    Investigate Retail Pricing Policies: 351
   NCOP Delegates: 1608                                                             Bus Accident at eMalangeni: 1972
   IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2266                                                Supports the Premier and his Family: 2361
   Alleviation of Poverty and Unemployment: 2544                                    AG to hand over Unedited Reports on the Arms Deal: 2617
   Remuneration of the Premier: 2608                                                Point of Order: 359, 3062, 3063
   Extension for Submission of Registerable Assets of Members: 2623               Motions:
   Allocation of Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees: 3126, 3142, 3504             IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2262
   Extension: Business Rehabilitation Trust Fund: 3150                              ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2391, 2403, 2419, 2425
   Robinson Manzi Commission of Enquiry Report: 3410                                1999 Coalition Agreement Between IFP and ANC: 3045
   Disciplinary Enquiries Against Members of the Legislature: 3528                  Allocation of Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees: 3133, 3139
   Appointment of Additional Government Members to the Development Tribunal:      Debates:
    3619                                                                            The Trafficking of Women and Children: 2093
 Debates:                                                                           Report: Minister of Transport: 2338
   State of the Province Address by the Premier: 178                                Report: Minister of Education and Culture: 2496, 3955
                                      21                                                                                 22

   Report: Minister of Public Works: 3447, 3888                                       Suspension of Rule 170(3): 3258
   Report by the Premier: 3640                                                        Procedure: 3462, 3463
   Report: Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development: 3989, 3999          Lunch Adjournment: 3778
 Discussions:                                                                         KwaZulu-Natal Adjustment Appropriation Bill 2003/2004: 3934
   Remark made by Mr Mzobe: 248                                                       Speaker's List: 3975
   Unparliamentary Language: 2520
                                                                                   GWALA, M B:
GCABASHE, Mrs L A:                                                                  Bills:
 Bills:                                                                               KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                               Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1796
      Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1104                       Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1196
      Vote 8: Department of Housing: 998                                                 Vote 10: Royal Household: 740
   KwaZulu-Natal Land Administration Bill, 2003: 3274                                    Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1491
 Notices of Motion:                                                                      Vote 12: Department of Transport: 884
   Stop the Trafficking of Children and Women: 296                                    KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill: 4135
   Accreditation of Ethekwini Municipality: 3059                                    Notices of Motion:
   ANC's Victory in Ward 12: 3704                                                     Presence of Amabutho at Opening of Parliament: 124
 Debates:                                                                             Eradicate Fraud in the Dept of Housing: 513, 515
   Report: Minister of Housing: 456, 459                                              Funerals not to be Used as Political Forums: 1353
   Legislative Proposal: Restriction of Access to Public Places: 3553                 IFPs Victory in Eshowe & Mooi River: 1977
 Discussion:                                                                          IFPs Victory in Hlabisa: 2113
   Comment made by Inkosi Ngubane: 3713, 3714                                         Political Parties no to be Misled: 2185
                                                                                      Caution re Forums in Rural Communities: 2358
GUMEDE, Inkosi S H:                                                                   Looking down on Traditionalism: 2618
 [Chief Whip]                                                                         M Commission of Enquiry into SA Oil Company: 2709
 Announcement by the Speaker:                                                         Royal High Commission Bill: 2796
   Rule 6(1): 3052                                                                    Members to Consider the Electorate: 2878
 Announcement by the Premier:                                                         Table the Robinson Manzi Commission of Enquiry Report: 3065
   No Announcements: 2432                                                             ANC to Distance Itself from Political Ploys: 3154
 Tabling of Report:                                                                   Public Representatives Enriching Themselves: 3310
   Finance Portfolio Committee Midyear Expenditure Review: 3575                       Mr P Ngcobo Creating Distrust: 3567
 Bill:                                                                                Conflict in the Ladysmith Municipal Council: 3628
   KwaZulu-Natal Adjustment Appropriation Bill 2003/2004: 3934                        ANC to Research their History: 3712
 Motions:                                                                             Award to Princess Mamonga: 4056
   Order Paper Amended: 22                                                          Motions:
   Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1128, 1134, 1148, 1155                             Crime, Violence and the Death Penalty: 82, 237
   Remuneration of the Premier: 2608                                                  ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2420
   Extension for Submission of Registerable Assets of Members: 2620                   Consolidation of a Co-operative Government in KZN: 2533
   Matter of Public Importance - Toll Roads in KZN: 2699                              Matter of Public Importance - Toll Roads in KZN: 2586
   1999 Coalition Agreement Between IFP and ANC: 3030, 3033                           Robinson Manzi Commission of Enquiry Report: 3400, 3426
   Extension: Business Rehabilitation Trust Fund: 3149                              Debates:
   Liaison: Monarch, Legislature and Cabinet: 3225                                    The Statement by the Premier: 1536
   Disciplinary Enquiries Against Members of the Legislature: 3468, 3475, 3528,       Safety and Security Study Tour Report: 2787
    3531                                                                              Report: Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and
   Allocation of Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees: 3504                            Security: 2937
   Appointment of Additional Government Members to the Development Tribunal:          Report: Minister of Transport: 3326, 3327
    3619                                                                              Report by the Premier: 3648
   From Executive Board in Respect of the Occupation of LA Flats in Ulundi: 3779    Discussions:
   Designate Members for Liaison: 4202, 4203                                          Unparliamentary Language: 2521
 Debates:                                                                           Ruling on Comments re Armoured Vehicle: 4046
   Report: Minister of Social Welfare & Population Development: 3371
   Resolution of the Executive Board on Ulundi Flats: 3533                         HAMILTON, A J:
 Discussions:                                                                       Tabling of Reports:
   On Adjournment: 392, 1145                                                          Auditor-General Reports:
   Tabling of Finance Portfolio Committee Report: 541                                  South African Housing Fund, 1999: 81
   On Rule 117: 1150                                                                   Annual Financial Statements re Local Authorities in KZN, 2001-2002: 82
   Changes to the Order Paper: 1550                                                    Financial Statements on the South African Housing Board: 120
   Distribution of Speeches: 2314                                                      Status Outstanding Financial Statements of Local Authorities: 120
   Comment made by Mr Malakoana: 2349                                                  Accounts of Local Authorities, 2000/2001: 2794
   Sub Judice Issues Raised by Mrs Downs: 2393, 2395, 2397                             General Report on Local Government, RP34/2003: 2794
                                      23                                                                                24

   Public Accounts Committee Report: 1756                                          Bills:
   Delays in the Tabling of Annual Reports for the Financial Year 2001/02: 2110      KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
   Public Accounts August 2003 Resolutions: 2794                                        Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1875, 1893
   Public Accounts Committee Resolutions 53 and 54/2003: 3148                           Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1217
 Bill:                                                                                  Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1512
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                           KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill: 4162, 4163
       Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1789                                     Notices of Motion:
       Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1100                  Natal Students at University of Stellenbosch: 19
       Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1043                                           Plight of Community of Banakile: 3872
 Notices of Motion:                                                                  Point of Order: 3520, 3521
   Condemns Reported Threats by Mr Makhaye: 19                                     Motions:
   New Port for Durban: 87                                                           Support for the African Union and NEPAD: 257, 272
   Re-imburse Saambou Bond-holders: 131                                              Allocation of Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees: 3123, 3138
   Political Parties to Disclose Source of Donations: 290
   Control Steel, Aluminium & Plastic Pricing: 354
   Reserve Bank and KPMG Report on Saambou: 543                                    Debates:
   Calls for Dismissal of National Minister of Health: 704                           The Premier's Report: 38, 3658
   KPMG Report on Procurement Procedures - SITA: 853                                 Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Fourth
   Wishes the People of Iraq Well: 1158                                              Amendment Bill (B69B-2002): 510
   Calls on National Minister of Health to Resign: 1263                              Voting Mandate on the Constitution of South Africa Fourth Amendment Bill
   Concern over the Mining Royalty Bill: 1355                                        [B69B-2003]: 537
   National Minister to Sign Global Fund Agreement: 2293                             Report: Minister of Agriculture & Environmental Affairs: 4060, 4069
   Bank Insurance Scheme to Protect Depositors: 2609                               Discussions:
   Proposed Merging of Scorpions with SAPS: 2711                                     Addressing the House: 274
   ANC to Come Clean re the Arms Deal: 2804                                          Changes to the Order Paper: 4054
   Incompetent Management at STATS SA: 2885                                          Explanation in Terms of Rule 106: 4170
   Investigate Fake Credentials: 3057
   Parastatals to Limit Price Increases: 3157                                     KEYS, R E:
   Reserve Bank's Call to Alter the Constitution: 3314                             [Chief Whip]
   Point of Order: 2297, 3067, 3155                                                Announcement by the Speaker: 2355
   M Agreement with the Global Fund to be Finalised: 3508                           Withdraws Statement: 2874
   Low Level of SAs Foreign Reserves: 3558                                          Bills:
   Lighting in the Legislature: 3627                                                KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
 Motions:                                                                              Budget Debate: 551, 633, 643
   Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 317                                                       Vote 2: The Provincial Legislature: 1930, 1937, 1954
   Alleviation of Poverty and Unemployment: 2554                                       Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2019, 2055
 Debates:                                                                              Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1882
   The Public Accounts Standing Committee Resolutions: 2126, 2149                      Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1040, 1041, 1044
   NCOP Matters: 2670                                                                  Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1205, 1225
   National Health Bill B32B-2003: 3254                                                Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1428, 1442
   Public Accounts Resolutions: 2973, 2991                                             Vote 12: Department of Transport: 893, 905, 908, 927
 Discussions:                                                                       KwaZulu-Natal Adjustment Appropriation Bill 2003/2004: 3935
   Comment by Mr Rajbansi: 712                                                     Notices of Motion: 2795
   Comment re Armoured Vehicle: 3715, 3716                                          ANC's 91st Birthday: 9
                                                                                    Condemns Increase in Toll Fees: 123
JOHNSON, Mrs L:                                                                     Alleged Assault by SAPS: 350
  Bills:                                                                            Rights of Cuban Doctors: 518
    KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                         South Africa not to Become a One-Party State: 546
       Vote 7: Department of Health: 786, 831                                       Government to deal with AIDS Epidemic: 694
    KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill: 4154                    Violation of the Judiciary in Neighbouring Countries: 857
  Notice of Motion:                                                                 Is PDP a Front Party for the ANC?: 965
    Welcomes Prof R Feacham: 544                                                    Mr Volker to Withdraw Veiled Threats: 1160
  Debates:                                                                          Defuse Tension in the Taxi Industry: 1352
    Report: Minister of Health: 442, 2839, 3921                                     Compensation to Liberation Fighters: 1548
    National Health Bill B32B-2003: 3231                                            End the Reign of Mr Mugabe: 1618
                                                                                    Private Members' Bill in terms of Rule 185(4): 1623, 1759, 1969
KANKOSI-SHANDU, Mrs E E N:                                                          Condolences to the Sisulu Family: 1757
 [Whip]                                                                             DA's Victory in Grassy Park & Moffet Park: 1971
 Announcement by the Chairperson:                                                   Increase Compensation to Victims of Apartheid: 2112
  Mrs kaNkosi-Shandu Withdraws Statement: 1915                                      SABC to be Unbiased: 2184
                                    25                                                                                26

  Mngeni Water - Loss of Jobs: 2292                                                 Comment made by Mr Keys: 2801
  Redraft the Terrorism Bill: 2360                                                  Suspension of Rule 170(3): 3258
  Miss L F Shabalala to Read Terrorism Bill: 2441                                   Changes to the Order Paper: 4054
  Demotion of Umshwati Mayor: 2607                                                  Best Wishes for the Festive Season: 4206
  Illegal ANC Posters in Pietermaritzburg: 2706                                   Explanation in Terms of Rule 106: 4171
  Dr Mbanjwa to take Responsibility for Speeding Offence: 2795
  DAs Victory in Ward 37 By-election: 2880                                       KHUBISA, Prof M N:
  Secure Works of Art in the Ulundi Legislative Complex: 3061                     Bills:
  Freedom of the Press in Zimbabwe: 3156                                            KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
  Dept of Transport to Deploy all Officers: 3518                                       Budget Debate: 637
  Private Member's Bill in Terms of Rule 185(4): 3319                                  Vote 2: The Provincial Legislature: 1956
  ANC to Resolve Personal Conflicts at Own Expense: 3559                               Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2014
  Democratic Order in Swaziland: 3626                                                  Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1589
  Vice-Chancellor for University of Natal: 3868                                     KwaZulu-Natal Land Administration Bill, 2003: 3265
  Suspension of Standing Rules 160 & 183: 4053                                      KwaZulu-Natal Petitions Bill, 2003: 3826, 3834
  Point of Order: 127, 2797, 3317, 3871                                           Notices of Motion:
Motions:                                                                            Concern that SA has become World Drug Destination: 130
  Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 90, 313                                                 Abolish Exchange Control: 356
  Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1127, 1139                                        Parties not to Isolate IFP Leadership: 966
  Appointment of Adv D M Achtzen as Commissioner on Ethics and Members'             The Book "Indoda Emadodeni": 2120
     Interests: 1911                                                                Root out Evil in the Schools: 2367
  IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2255, 2256, 2257, 2269, 2286                         Commends the Educators in this Province: 3319
  Remuneration of the Premier: 2608                                                 Members to Respect Traditional Leaders: 3875
  Extension for Submission of Registerable Assets of Members: 2623                Motion:
  Matter of Public Importance - Toll Roads in KZN: 2577, 2595, 2599, 2623,          Consolidation of a Co-operative Government in KZN: 2508
   2700                                                                           Debates:
  Physical Education in School Curriculum: 2859                                     Report: Minister of Education and Culture: 399, 2626, 3938
  1999 Coalition Agreement Between IFP and ANC: 3038, 3039, 3047                    Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Fourth
  Allocation of Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees: 3126, 3137, 3504              Amendment Bill (B69B-2002): 491
  Disciplinary Enquiries Against Members of the Legislature: 3468, 3475, 3529,      Voting Mandate on the Constitution of South Africa Fourth Amendment Bill
   3530, 3531                                                                       [B69B-2003]: 528
  Appointment of Additional Government Members to the Development Tribunal:         Special Debate to Celebrate Youth Month: 2218
   3619                                                                             Respect Confidentiality of Reports: 3490
  Designate Members for Liaison: 4192, 4203                                         Legislative Proposal: Restriction of Access to Public Places: 3541
Debates:                                                                          Discussion:
  The Premier's State of the Province Address: 139                                  Notice of Motion by Mrs Nkonyeni: 701
  Report: Minister of Education and Culture: 411, 2634, 2962, 3941, 3949
  Report: Minister of Health: 430
  Report: Minister of Housing: 458, 478, 2453
  Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Fourth    KROG, J:
  Amendment Bill (B69B-2002): 497                                                 Announcement by the Speaker:
  NCOP Matters: 2680                                                                Withdraws Allegation: 2696
  Transport Portfolio Committee Report - Overseas Study Tour: 2243                Bills:
  Report: Minister of Transport: 2333, 2892, 2893, 2894, 2899, 3334                 KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
  Report: Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and          Budget Debate: 596
   Security: 2921                                                                      Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1661
  Report: Minister of Social Welfare & Population Development: 3372                    Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1705, 1709
  Public Accounts Resolutions: 2982, 4031, 4039                                        Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1078, 1100
  Respect Confidentiality of Reports: 3495                                             Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1866
  Resolution of the Executive Board on Ulundi Flats: 3533                              Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1042
  Legislative Proposal: Restriction of Access to Public Places: 3537, 3550             Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1481
Discussions:                                                                        KwaZulu-Natal Business Rehabilitation Trust Fund Amendment Bill, 2003: 2690
  Rule 97: 42, 43                                                                   KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill: 4125, 4145, 4175
  Speaker's List: 265, 266, 4093                                                  Notices of Motion:
  Tabling of Finance Portfolio Committee Report: 541                                eThekwini Metro Water Accounts Arrears: 354
  Notice of Motion by Mr Rajbansi: 705                                              Durban Transport Routes to be put to Tender: 546
  Extension of Time for Notices of Motion: 858                                      The Threat of SARS in KZN: 967
  On Adjournment: 1146                                                              Reduction of Interest Rates: 1758
  Comment made by Mr Malakoana: 2346                                                Concern about Development in Ethekwini: 1976
  NNP Motion: 2354                                                                  Protect the Independence of the Auditor-General: 2159
                                       27                                                                              28

   Steps against Rapists: 2183                                                     Congratulates ANC on its 91st Anniversary: 10
   Employ more Policemen: 2294                                                     Political Harassment of Public Servants: 517
   AG to Release Report on the National Executive: 2440                            Consolidate the Coalition Government: 2185
   Concern about Anti-Terrorism Bill: 2611                                         Point of Order: 2614
   ANC to take Disciplinary Action against the Deputy President: 2883            Motions:
   Congratulates SA Athletic Team: 3059                                            Support for the African Union and NEPAD: 253, 284
   Wishes our Sportsmen Well: 3159                                                 Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1133
   Best Wishes for Soccer World Cup Bid: 3315                                      Consolidation of a Co-operative Government in KZN: 2505, 2539
   Clarify Legislation re Social Assistance Act: 3515                              Alleviation of Poverty and Unemployment: 2569
   Passing Away of Clr Krause: 3566                                                Liaison: Monarch, Legislature and Cabinet: 2705, 2996, 3014
   Relocation of the Department of Public Works: 3630                            Debates:
   Investigate Relocation of Dept of Public Works: 3706                            The Statement by the Premier: 1522
   Durban to East London Toll Road: 3871                                           Report as per Motion by Mrs J M Downs: 3113
 Motions:                                                                          Report: Minister of Public Works: 3188, 3453, 3736, 3892
   Support for the African Union and NEPAD: 277                                    Legislative Proposal: Restriction of Access to Public Places: 3539
   IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2274                                             Discussion:
   Alleviation of Poverty and Unemployment: 2560                                   Remark made by Mrs Ambler-Moore: 340
   1999 Coalition Agreement Between IFP and ANC: 3049                            Explanation in Terms of Rule 106(2): 3747, 3750
   Killing of Public Representatives: 3389
 Debates:                                                                       MACKENZIE, M M:
   The Public Accounts Standing Committee Resolutions: 2134                      Bill:
   NCOP Matters: 2669                                                              KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
   Report: Minister of Economic Development and Tourism: 2814, 4095                    Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1806
   Report: Minister of Agriculture & Environmental Affairs: 4065                       Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1672
 Discussion:                                                                           Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1715
   Tabling of Finance Portfolio Committee Report: 539                                  Vote 10: Royal Household: 745
                                                                                 Debates:
KUBHEKA M A:                                                                       Report: Minister of Agriculture & Environmental Affairs: 4067
 Notice of Motion:                                                                 Report: Minister of Economic Development and Tourism: 4101
   Victimisation of Farm Workers - Utrecht Area: 3709
 Bill:                                                                          MAKHAYE, D H:
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                       [Minister of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs - as from 23 April 2003]
       Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1412                             Announcements by the Speaker:
       Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1343      Withdraws Statement re Mr Keys: 693
 Notices of Motion:                                                                Explanation in Terms of Rule 106(3): 2356
   IFP not to be Abused by Right Wing Forces: 2367                               Tabling of Reports or Papers:
   Country to be Vigilant Against the DA: 2616                                     Strategic Plan for the Dept of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs: 1616
   Commission of Inquiry re Prince G L Zulu: 3311                                  Annual Reports:
 Debate:                                                                           Dept of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs: 3146
   Special Debate to Celebrate Youth Month: 2223                                   Mjindi Farming: 3146
                                                                                   Natal Trust Fund: 3146
LUDIDI, Miss Z M:                                                                  No Reports:
  Bills:                                                                           Mpendle Ntambanana Agricultural Co: 3146
    KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                        Ezemvelo KZN Wildlife: 3146
       Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1310      Explains Non-submission of Reports: 3146
    KwaZulu-Natal Petitions Bill, 2003: 3832                                       Auditor's Report: Ezemvelo Wildlife: 3146
  Debates:                                                                       Bills:
    The Trafficking of Women and Children: 2091                                    KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
    Report: Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development: 3984, 4004         Budget Debate: 642
                                                                                      Vote 3: Department of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs: 1625, 1695,
MABUYAKHULU, M:                                                                        1744, 1753
 [Minister of Public Works - as from 23 April 2003]                                KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill: 4156
 Tabling of Reports:                                                             Notices of Motion:
   Annual Report: Department of Public Works: 3146                                 New Jacket for Mr Hamilton: 21, 29
   KZN Land Administration Bill, 2003: 3146                                        Measures against the Israeli Military Camarilla: 85
 Bills:                                                                            Seating of the DP and NNP: 125
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                         Parties not to Accept DJs: 299
      Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1110                 Executive to Reflect Composition of the Legislature: 856
   KwaZulu-Natal Land Administration Bill, 2003: 3257, 3259, 3278                  Honours the Late Chris Hani: 964
 Notices of Motion:                                                                Passing Away of Nina Simone: 1757
                                      29                                                                                30

   M Right Wing Elements: 2153                                                     Notices of Motion: 2807
   Desist from Dirty Campaign Electioneering: 2192                                   King Shaka Airport not to be Owned by ACSA: 91
   Supports the French Foreign Minister: 2611                                        Price Fixing in the Transportation Industry: 357
   Investigate Murders at Mpophomeni: 2712                                           Commends Treatment Action Campaign: 696
   Zimbabwe Government and MDC: 3163                                                 Condolences to the Luvuno Family: 2122
   DA's Opinion of the Crime Statistics: 3316                                        Growth in Tourism GDP: 2617
 Motions:                                                                            ANC not to Look down on Royal Traditional Leadership: 2806
   Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 327                                                     Founding of Ithala Finance Corporation: 3510
   1999 Coalition Agreement Between IFP and ANC: 3028                              Motions:
 Debates:                                                                            Support for the African Union and NEPAD: 280
   The Premier's State of the Province Address: 169                                  Consolidation of a Co-operative Government in KZN: 2525
   Report: Minister of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs: 3894, 4071             Alleviation of Poverty and Unemployment: 2565
 Explanation in Terms of Rule 106: 4171                                              1999 Coalition Agreement Between IFP and ANC: 3031, 3032
                                                                                   Debates:
MALAKOANA, M S:                                                                      The Public Accounts Standing Committee Resolutions: 2142
 Tabling of Reports or Papers:                                                       Report: Minister of Transport: 2371, 2372
   American Council of Young Leaders: 4050                                           Report: Minister of Economic Development and Tourism: 2817
 Bill:                                                                               Report: The Public Works Portfolio Committee: 3284
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                         Discussion:
       Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2043                             Unparliamentary Language: 2517
       Vote 10: Royal Household: 723
       Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1432                             MCHUNU, Mrs A
       Vote 12: Department of Transport: 879, 941                                 Bills:
       Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1328       KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
 Notices of Motion:                                                                    Vote 7: Department of Health: 822
   Investigation into Imperial Car Rentals: 130                                        Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1014
   Parties to Concentrate on Development: 296                                          Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1582
   Rehabilitate Victims of Poor Upbringing: 352                                     KwaZulu-Natal Land Administration Bill, 2003: 3276
   Investigate Fraud in the Dept of Housing: 522                                  Notices of Motion:
   Rejects Allegation by the ANC: 705                                               House to be Responsible & Accountable: 355
   ANC to Respect Amakhosi: 2124                                                    Youth to Refrain from Drug and Alcohol Abuse: 859
   Commends IFPs Provincial Conference: 2295                                        Over-emphasis of Party Prominence: 969
   ANC not to use HIV/AIDS as an Election Ploy: 2798                                Congratulates Prince Zulu on Biography: 2125
   Condemns www.savage onblondes.com Website: 2883                                  Ulundi to be Re-instated as a Seat of the Legislature: 2716
   Applauds IFP on Gaining ANC Members: 3312                                        Passing away of Gertrude Mthembu: 3315
   Officials not to Abuse Positions for Political Gain: 3873                        Point of Order: 2438
   Award to Inkosi M G Buthelezi: 4057                                            Motions:
 Motions:                                                                           Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 343
   Allocation of Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees: 3140                         ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2428
   Killing of Public Representatives: 3391                                        Debates:
 Debates:                                                                           The Trafficking of Women and Children: 2100, 2101
   Transport Portfolio Committee Report - Overseas Study Tour: 2246                 Report: Minister of Housing: 2448
   Report: Minister of Transport: 2342, 2370, 3341                                  Report: Minister of Health: 2658, 2829
   Report: Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and      National Health Bill B32B-2003: 3252
    Security: 2926
 Discussion:                                                                     MCHUNU, E S:
   Comment made by Mr Malakoana: 2344, 2347, 2348, 2351                           Bill:
 Explanation in terms of Rule 106(1): 2871, 3969                                    KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
                                                                                        Vote 2: The Provincial Legislature: 1941
                                                                                        Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1735
                                                                                        Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2064
MBATHA, E S:                                                                            Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1295
 Announcement by the Speaker:                                                     Notices of Motion:
   Point of Order: 2873                                                             Racist Statements by the DA: 2295
 Bills:                                                                             Designate Members for Liaison: 3703
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                        Motions:
      Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1692                             ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2417, 2420
      Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1068, 1102            Designate Members for Liaison: 4190, 4201
      Vote 12: Department of Transport: 931                                       Debates:
   KwaZulu-Natal Business Rehabilitation Trust Fund Amendment Bill, 2003: 2684      Report: Minister of Education and Culture: 419, 2639
                                       31                                                                                32

   Report: Minister of Transport: 2372                                               Amendment Bill (B69B-2002): 507
   Legislative Proposal: Restriction of Access to Public Places: 3553                Report: Minister of Housing: 2445
                                                                                     Report: The Public Works Portfolio Committee: 3285
MCHUNU, T W:
 Notice of Motion:                                                               MKHIZE, Dr Z L:
  ANC & NNP Success in Emnambithi Municipality: 3627                               [Minister of Health]
                                                                                   Announcement by the Speaker:
MCOYI, W:                                                                            Explanation in Terms of Rule 106(3): 2387
 Notices of Motion:                                                                Tabling of Reports or Papers:
   French Government's Stance re Arms Investigation: 2713                            Strategic Plan for the Dept of Health: 695
   Dr M Radebe and White House Matter: 2805                                          Focusing on Women's Health Issues: 2704
   Recover the Money Invested in Malandela & Umthombo: 3068                          Report: Commission of Enquiry: Corpses Found at Hospitals: 3306
   Misrepresentation of the Zulu Culture: 3517                                       Report on Hospital Mortuaries: 3623
   Democratic Party Elections in Hong Kong: 3568                                   Bill:
 Motion:                                                                             KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
   Robinson Manzi Commission of Enquiry Report: 3415                                     Budget Debate: 675
 Debates:                                                                                Vote 7: Department of Health: 762, 836
   Report: Minister of Health: 2842                                                Notices of Motion:
   Report: Minister of Transport: 2888                                               Commends the ANC for its Perspective on Zimbabwe: 969
   Report: Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development: 3986               M DA to Desist from Besmirching Dr Zuma: 2715
 Explanation in terms of Rule 106(1): 2872                                           Point of Order: 860
                                                                                   Motion:
MILLER P M:                                                                          Robinson Manzi Commission of Enquiry Report: 3404, 3423
 [Minister of Finance]                                                             Debates:
 Tabling of Reports:                                                                 State of the Province Address by the Premier: 196
   Aggregated Annual Financial Statements, 31 March 2002: 288                        Report: Minister of Health: 212, 449, 2309, 2314, 2661, 2719, 2844,
   Strategic Plan - Provincial Treasury: 853                                          3788, 3928
   Budget Statements, 2003/2004: 2793                                              Discussions:
   Annual Report of the Dept of Treasury: 3070                                       Notice of Motion by Mr Hamilton: 708, 709
 Notices of Motion:                                                                  Tabling of Strategic Plans: 711
   Motion by Mrs Scott Implicating Prince M G Buthelezi: 2875                        Good Wishes for Easter: 1611
   Suspension of Standing Rules 160 & 183: 4050                                      Distribution of Speeches: 2312
 Bills:                                                                              Comment by the Premier: 3554, 3556
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
      The Budget Debate: 359, 391, 681                                           MLABA, Inkosi Z M:
      Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1840, 1842, 1899                             Bill:
   The KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                      KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
      Withdrawal of the Bill: 2161                                                      Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1023
   The Amended KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003: 2162, 2167                       Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1496
   KwaZulu-Natal Adjustment Estimates Bill, 2003: 3717, 3720, 4178
 Debates:                                                                        MOHLAKA, Mrs B S:
   The Premier's Report: 29                                                       Bill:
   Public Accounts Resolutions: 2985, 2991, 2993                                    KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
 Discussions:                                                                           Vote 2: The Provincial Legislature: 1927
   Mr Miller Apologises to Mr Rajbansi: 971                                             Vote 7: Department of Health: 808
   Discussion on Procedure: 2160, 2161                                                  Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1301,
 Explanation in terms of Rule 106(1): 2995, 4187, 4189                                  2178
                                                                                  Notices of Motion:
MKHIZE, Prince S:                                                                   Death of Babies at King Edward VIII Hospital: 89
 Bill:                                                                              Investigate KZN Ambulance Service: 1619, 1623
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                          Crime at Pension Pay Points: 2119
       Vote 10: Royal Household: 721, 726                                           Media Concern re Trafficking of Women: 2160
       Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1460, 1467                       Discrimination Against Health Professionals: 2612
 Notice of Motion:                                                                  Investigate Conditions in Mortuaries: 3566
   Respect His Majesty The King: 516                                                Success of 2003 HIV/AIDS Indaba: 3868
 Motion:                                                                          Motions:
   Crime, Violence and the Death Penalty: 230                                       Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1148
 Debates:                                                                           Allocation of Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees: 3136
   Report: Minister of Housing: 465                                               Debates:
   Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Fourth      Report: Minister of Health: 425, 2656, 3907, 3925
                                        33                                                                                 34

   The Trafficking of Women and Children: 2081                                         Point of Order: 861, 3522
   National Health Bill B32B-2003: 3245, 3252                                          DA Masquerading as an Alternative Government: 3559
                                                                                       Campaign Against Violence: 3629
 Discussion:                                                                           Support Tamil Tigers' Quest for Freedom: 3867
   Comment made by Mr Malakoana: 2351                                                Motion:
                                                                                       Physical Education in School Curriculum: 2853
MOLEFE, Mrs N P:                                                                     Debates:
 Debate:                                                                               Report: Minister of Education and Culture: 394, 415, 417, 2965, 3956, 3959,
  Report: Minister of Safety & Security: 3353                                          3962
                                                                                       Report: Minister of Health: 2844
MTETWA, Rev C J:                                                                       Report as per Motion by Mrs J M Downs: 3105
 [Minister of Public Works - until 14 April 2003]                                      Respect Confidentiality of Reports: 3498
 Announcement by the Premier:                                                          National Health Bill B32B-2003: 3249
   No Announcements: 287, 847, 961, 1257, 2288, 2702                                   Report by the Premier: 3655
 Tabling of Report:                                                                    Public Accounts Resolutions: 4033
   Strategic Plan for the Department of Public Works: 1157                           Discussions:
 Notice of Motion:                                                                     Remark made by Mr Mzobe: 252
   Parties to Form a Joint Caucus: 1976                                                Notice of Motion by Mr Gwala: 519
 Motion:                                                                             Explanation in terms of Rule 106(1): 2869, 2870, 3968
   From Executive Board in Respect of the Occupation of LA Flats in Ulundi: 3770
 Debate:                                                                           MTHIYANE, M J:
   State of the Province Address by the Premier: 142                                Bill:
                                                                                      KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
MTETWA, S N:                                                                              Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1238
 [Deputy Chief Whip]                                                                      Vote 10: Royal Household: 754
 Bill:                                                                                    Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1477, 1479, 1486
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                                Vote 12: Department of Transport: 911
       Vote 12: Department of Transport: 915                                        Notices of Motion:
 Motion:                                                                              Condemns Taxi Violence: 3307
   Liaison: Monarch, Legislature and Cabinet: 3226                                    Taxi Recap Scheme Postponed: 3632
 Debates:                                                                           Debates:
   Transport Portfolio Committee Report - Overseas Study Tour: 2228                   Report: Minister of Transport: 2324, 3320
   Report: Minister of Social Welfare & Population Development: 3371                  Report: Minister of Health: 2651
   Report: Minister of Public Works: 3856
 Discussions:                                                                      MZIZI, M A:
   Extension of Time for Notices of Motion: 858                                     Bill:
   Suspension of Rule 170(3): 3258                                                    KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
                                                                                          Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1034
MTHIMKHULU, M E:                                                                          Vote 12: Department of Transport: 940
 Bills:                                                                                   Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1321
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                          Notices of Motion:
      Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2008, 2047                         Condemns Abuse of a Child in Kempton Park: 1356
      Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1872, 1886, 1889                                 ANC not to Lambast the IFP: 2613
      Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1231                               Debates:
      Vote 10: Royal Household: 742, 752                                              Report: Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and
   KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill: 4131, 4157                  Security: 2472
 Notices of Motion:                                                                   National Health Bill B32B-2003: 3235
   Best Wishes for the 91st Celebrations of the ANC: 13
   Investigation: The Mayor of Amajuba District Council: 87                        MZOBE, M R:
   IFP/DA Alliance: 298                                                             Bill:
   Kingdom of KwaZulu-Natal on Letterheads: 854                                       KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
   Ukhozi FM Incident: 1161                                                               Budget Debate: 615
   1999 Electoral Mandate: 1264                                                           Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1087
   M Tension in the KwaHlomendlini Area: 2116                                             Vote 7: Department of Health: 766
   Dept of Education to Utilise Funds for HIV/AIDS: 2713                                  Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1179, 1228
   M Calls on Mr Tony Leon to Resign: 2800                                          Notices of Motion:
   ANC has a Right to Meet with Opposition Parties: 2877                              Non-disclosure of Reports on the Arms Deal: 91
   IFP and Reactionary Forces: 3067                                                   Corruption in the Civil Service: 121
   DA to Apologise for Supporting Invasion of Iraq: 3155                              Denigration of National Leaders: 350
   Congratulates the Premier on Receiving Title Deed: 3511                            ANC Exploitation of Amakhosi: 2606
                                        35                                                                                36

    Alterations to Arms Deal Report: 2712                                           Tabling of Reports:
  Motions:                                                                            Strategic Plan: Dept of Transport 2003/4 to 2005/6: 543
    Crime, Violence and the Death Penalty: 246, 250                                   Annual Report: Dept of Transport 2002/03: 3145
    IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2261                                                 Judicial Taxi Commission of Inquiry Report: 3866
    Physical Education in School Curriculum: 2855, 2856                             Bill:
    1999 Coalition Agreement Between IFP and ANC: 3046                                KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
  Debates:                                                                                Budget Debate: 577
    Report: Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and           Vote 12: Department of Transport: 862, 949, 960
     Security: 2483, 3358, 3364                                                     Announcement by the Premier: 1613
    Report: Minister of Economic Development and Tourism: 4099                      Notices of Motion:
    Safety and Security Study Tour Report: 2783                                       Members to Renew Drivers Licences: 132
  Discussions:                                                                        Amendment to Notice of Motion: 1624
    Remark made by Mr Mzobe: 247, 249, 252                                            Point of Order: 3874
    Tabling of Finance Portfolio Committee Report: 539                              Motion:
                                                                                      Allocation of Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees: 3129
NAHARA, Miss F M:                                                                   Debates:
 Bill:                                                                                Report by the Premier: 23, 56, 3633, 3681
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill:                                                  State of the Province Address by the Premier: 133
       Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1660                              Report: Minister of Transport: 2192, 2373, 2739, 2914, 3165, 3344
       Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1702                                        Report as per Motion by Mrs J M Downs: 3078, 3118
       Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1182                                Statement by the Deputy Speaker: 3481
 Debate:                                                                              Legislative Proposal: Restriction of Access to Public Places: 3549, 3553
   The Trafficking of Women and Children: 2105                                      Discussions:
                                                                                      Licence Conversions: 392
NAICKER, S V:                                                                         Comment made by Mr Malakoana: 2343, 2345, 2347, 2350, 2351, 2352
 Bill:                                                                                Comment re Armoured Vehicle: 3714, 3716
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill:                                                  Best Wishes for the Festive Season: 4205
       Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1669
       Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1705                                    NDLOVU, V B:
       Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1004, 1013                                   Tabling of Report:
 Notices of Motion:                                                                  Overseas Trip by Housing Portfolio Committee: 3508
   Provide Tax Incentives for Export Trade: 131                                    Bill:
   Illegal Squatters on Benoni Farm: 298                                             KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
   Criminal Charges against Mac Maharaj: 2715                                            Budget Debate: 666
   Formalise Visits by Members of National Parliament: 2806                              Vote 8: Department of Housing: 995
   Investigate Lawlessness and Land Invasions: 2886                                      Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1209
   Land Reforms and Redistribution Programme: 3163                                 Notices of Motion:
   Expedite Exemptions - Access to Beaches: 3562                                     Discipline Executive Producer of Current Affairs: 293
   Closure of Ntumeni Sugar Mill: 3705                                               SABC not to Distort Motion: 1162
   KwaDukuza Police Mortuary: 3869                                                   SABC to Investigate Mr Jabulani Sithole: 1351
 Debates:                                                                            Calls for a further Reduction in the Interest Rate: 3564
   Report: Minister of Housing: 459, 3971                                            Point of Order: 3710
   Report: Minister of Agriculture & Environmental Affairs: 4060                   Motion:
                                                                                     Killing of Public Representatives: 3375
NDABANDABA, Prof L B G:                                                            Debates:
  [Minister of Education and Culture - until 24 March 2003]                          State of the Province Address by the Premier: 192
  Notices of Motion:                                                                 Report: Minister of Housing: 2460
    Departments to Develop Anti-rape Projects: 2361                                  Legislative Proposal: Restriction of Access to Public Places: 3547, 3553
    Support Initiatives to Upskill Local Communities: 3152                         Discussions:
    Condemns Trafficking in Human Organs: 4055                                       Remark made by Mr Mzobe: 249
  Bill:                                                                              Distribution of Speeches: 979
    KwaZulu-Natal Petitions Bill, 2003: 3824                                         Changes to the Order Paper: 1551, 1552
  Debates:                                                                           Good Wishes for Easter: 1611
    Report: Minister of Education and Culture: 203, 421, 2624, 2954, 3935
    Report: Minister of Economic Development and Tourism: 2809                    NGCOBO, Mrs L G:
                                                                                   Bill:
NDEBELE, J S:                                                                        KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
  [Minister of Transport]                                                                Budget Debate: 605
  Obituaries and Other Ceremonial Matters:                                         Notices of Motion:
   Passing Away of Walter Sisulu: 1755                                               Government's Attitude on HIV/AIDS: 90
                                      37                                                                                  38

   Removal of Indian Languages from Syllabi: 2189                                   Report: Minister of Transport: 2890
   Fight against Racism, Sexism and Ageism: 2615
   Political Censorship in the SABC: 3060                                        NGIDI, S B:
   M More People Affected by HIV/AIDS: 3631                                       Tabling of Reports or Papers:
 Motions:                                                                           Revised May 2003 Resolutions: 3865
   IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2270                                                Resolutions on Auditor-General's 2002/2003 Report: 3865, 3866
   ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2427                          Bills:
   1999 Coalition Agreement Between IFP and ANC: 3042, 3049, 3050                   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
   Allocation of Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees: 3141                            Budget Debate: 613
 Debates:                                                                              Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1810
   Report by the Premier: 44                                                           Vote 2: The Provincial Legislature: 1947
   NCOP Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Fourth               Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1105
   Amendment Bill (B69B-2002): 490                                                     Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2005, 2058, 2061, 2062,
   National Health Bill B32B-2003: 3230, 3255                                           2063
   Report: Minister of Education and Culture: 2964                                     Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1885
 Discussions:                                                                          Vote 10: Royal Household: 750, 752, 754
   Sub Judice Issues Raised by Mrs Downs: 2392, 2393, 2394                          KwaZulu-Natal Land Administration Bill, 2003: 3266
   Distribution of Report: 3228                                                     KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill: 4148, 4173
                                                                                  Notices of Motion:
NGCOBO, Rev N W:                                                                    Grade 12 Pass Rate in 2002: 16
 [Minister of Housing]                                                              Condemns Cheque Book Politics: 545
 Bill:                                                                              Mr D H Makhaye to Withdraw Remarks re Premier: 2290
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                          Murder of Dr Masuku: 2617
       Vote 8: Department of Housing: 972, 976, 980, 1045                           Restitution of Land to Premier: 3513
 Tabling of Reports or Papers:                                                      Measures to Kick Start Economy: 3624
   Strategic Plan for the Dept of Housing: 963                                    Motions:
   Annual Report: Department of Housing, 2002/03: 3147                              Support for the African Union and NEPAD: 271
   Annual Report: Rental Housing Tribunal, 2002/03: 3147                            IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2279, 2281
 Notices of Motion:                                                                 Consolidation of a Co-operative Government in KZN: 2523
   Drivers to Apply for New Licence Cards: 84                                       Allocation of Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees: 3134, 3135
   Withdraws Statement: 126                                                       Debates:
   Control the Escalation of HIV/AIDS: 698                                          State of the Province Address by the Premier: 174
   Bus Companies to Provide Co-drivers: 2437                                        Report: Minister of Education and Culture: 414, 2636, 3952, 3957
   SA Government to ensure IEC has Resources: 2876                                  Report: Minister of Transport: 2339
   IEC to ensure Citizens Right to Vote: 3309                                       Public Accounts Resolutions: 4021, 4035, 4042
   Calls on Voters to Register: 3510
 Debate:                                                                          Discussions:
   Report: Minister of Housing: 302, 483, 2300, 2467, 3607, 3981                    On Addressing the House: 274
                                                                                    Comment made by Mr Malakoana: 2345, 2346
NGCOBO, P:                                                                          Sub Judice Issues Raised by Mrs Downs: 2391, 2398
 Bills:                                                                           Explanation in Terms of Rule 106: 4176
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
      Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1096               NGUBANE, Inkosi N J:
      Vote 10: Royal Household: 751                                               [Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and Security]
      Vote 12: Department of Transport: 889                                       [Acting Minister of Public Works - 14 April to 23 April 2003]
   KwaZulu-Natal Business Rehabilitation Trust Fund Amendment Bill, 2003: 2692    Announcement by the Speaker:
 Notices of Motion:                                                                 Invites Members to a Cocktail Party: 1546, 1614
   Commends ANCs Good Leadership: 17                                              Announcements by the Premier:
   Condolences - Bus Accident in Free State: 1617                                   Invites Members to Premier's Annual Banquet: 1908
   New Legislation Re Domestic & Farm Workers: 1913                                 No Announcements: 1969
   ANCs Victory in uMhlathuze Ward: 2118                                          Tabling of Reports or Papers:
   Corruption in the Western Cape: 2368                                             Strategic Plan - Dept of Traditional and Local Government Affairs: 694
   ANC Committed to Improve Lives of Amakhosi: 2708                                 Strategic Plan - Dept of Safety and Security: 852
   M Congratulates ANC for Increasing its Membership: 3161                          Annual Reports:
   IFP not to be Lead by the DA: 3563                                               KZN Provincial Planning and Development Commission, 2002/03: 3147
   Mr Coleman not Included on IFP List: 3709                                        Department of Safety and Security, 2002/03: 3148
 Motions:                                                                           Umsekeli Municipal Support Services in KZN: 3148
   Alleviation of Poverty and Unemployment: 2550                                    House of Traditional Leaders, 2002/03: 3148
   Extension: Business Rehabilitation Trust Fund: 3149                              Dept of Traditional and Local Government Affairs: 3148
 Debate:                                                                            Annual Report of the SAPS, 2002/2003: 3717
                                       39                                                                               40

    Midterm Review on Safety & Security, 2003/2004: 3717
  Bill:                                                                           PANDAY, K:
    KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                        Bill:
        Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1163, 1243                        KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
        Vote 11: Department of Traditional and Local Government Affairs: 1359,           Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2031
        1446, 1503, 1515, 1516                                                           Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1020
        Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1554, 1598                                  Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1389
  Motions:                                                                         Notices of Motion:
    Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 342                                                    Establish a Professional Body for Liquidators: 301
    Allocation of Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees: 3136                         M Congratulates the SA Karate Team: 3151
  Debates:                                                                           M Zero Tolerance Towards Crime in Schools: 3317
    State of the Province Address by the Premier: 180                                Minister of Education Promoting all Cultures: 3701
    Report: Minister of Transport: 2372                                              Congratulates the Premier on AIDS Indaba: 4059
    Report: Minister of Education and Culture: 2626                                Motion:
    Report: Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and      Crime, Violence and the Death Penalty: 223
     Security: 2265, 2374, 2489, 2731, 2924, 2945, 3172, 3365, 3752, 4086,         Debates:
     4088                                                                            Report: Minister of Housing: 479
  Discussion:                                                                        Physical Education in School Curriculum: 2705, 2848, 2867
    Comment made by Inkosi Ngubane: 3713, 3714                                       Report: Minister of Education and Culture: 2957
                                                                                     Report: Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and
NKONYENI, Mrs N P:                                                                    Security: 4078
  [Whip]
  Bill:                                                                           QOMA, S:
    KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                        Bills:
        Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1784                                      KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
        Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1084                    Budget Debate: 624
                                                                                        Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1680
  Notices of Motion:                                                                    Vote 10: Royal Household: 747
    Calls on Members to join the ANC: 355                                               Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1420
    Comment by Prince G L Zulu: 699                                                     Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1488
    Fast Track the UNDP Process in KZN: 2125                                            Vote 12: Department of Transport: 920
    Wishes the IFP Women's Brigade Well: 2437                                        KwaZulu-Natal Land Administration Bill, 2003: 3271
    Thanks the ANC for Improving the Lives of Women: 2717                          Notices of Motion:
    Investigate the Actions of Mr Sidleke Nzimande: 3318                             Congratulates the UDM: 1269
    Improve the Lives of Women & Children: 3711                                      Thanks Parties on Behalf of Mr Holomisa: 2190
    Point of Order: 2799                                                             Suicides Committed in Butcheries: 2294
  Debates:                                                                           No Go Areas still Exist: 3061
    The Trafficking of Women and Children: 2077, 2102                                Ministers Involvement in Communities: 3159
    Report by the Premier: 3657                                                      Concern re No-go Areas: 3564
    Report: Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development: 3987, 3989      Motions:
    Report: Minister of Agriculture & Environmental Affairs: 4062                    Order Paper Amended: 22
    Report: Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and      Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1131, 1143, 1154
     Security: 4087                                                                  Liaison: Monarch, Legislature and Cabinet: 3001
    Report: Minister of Economic Development and Tourism: 4093                       Allocation of Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees: 3127
  Discussion:                                                                        Extension: Business Rehabilitation Trust Fund: 3150
    Notice of Motion by Mrs Nkonyeni: 701, 702                                     Debates:
                                                                                     The Premier's Report: 49, 3665
NTOMBELA, T D:                                                                       State of the Province Address by the Premier: 163
 Bill:                                                                               Report: Minister of Education and Culture: 409
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                           Report: Minister of Health: 441
       Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2073                             Report: Minister of Housing: 475
       Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1186                               Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Fourth
       Vote 11: Department of Traditional and Local Government Affairs: 1454,        Amendment Bill (B69B-2002): 509
       1458, 1466                                                                    Voting Mandate on the Constitution of South Africa Fourth Amendment Bill
 Debates:                                                                            [B69B-2003]: 536
   Transport Portfolio Committee Report - Overseas Study Tour: 2233                  The Statement by the Premier: 1541
   Report: Minister of Transport: 2908                                               Report: Minister of Transport: 2897
   Report: The Public Works Portfolio Committee: 3297                                Report as per Motion by Mrs J M Downs: 3099
 Discussion:                                                                       Discussions:
   Comment made by Mr Keys: 2802                                                     On Adjournment: 393, 1146
                                      41                                                                      42

   Tabling of Finance Portfolio Committee Report: 540, 541                    Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1800, 1814
   Extension of Time for Notices of Motion: 859                               Vote 2: The Provincial Legislature: 1935
   Changes to the Order Paper: 1551                                           Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1115
   Suspension of Rule 170(3): 3258                                            Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2051
                                                                              Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1006, 1017, 1029, 1031, 1034, 1049
RADEBE, Dr B M:                                                               Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1225, 1226
 Tabling of Reports:                                                          Vote 10: Royal Household: 732, 736
   Projects Envisaged by the Public Works Portfolio Committee: 3148           Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1406
   Report on Community Based Project District 27 & 28: 3701                   Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1475
 Bills:                                                                       Vote 12: Department of Transport: 896, 900, 904
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                 KwaZulu-Natal Land Administration Bill, 2003: 3269
      Vote 7: Department of Health: 807                                    KwaZulu-Natal Petitions Bill, 2003: 3820, 3831, 3837
      Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1016, 1032                            KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill: 4184
      Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1207, 1215, 1229         Notices of Motion:
      Vote 10: Royal Household: 753                                        The DP and the Floor Crossing Legislation: 16
      Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1479                     Comply with the Employment Equity Act: 85
      Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1566, 1594                      DA Official in the Dept of Housing: 125
   KwaZulu-Natal Land Administration Bill, 2003: 3263                      Suspend Darryl Ilbury: 292
 Notices of Motion:                                                        Liquor Trading Hours: 349
   Ukhozi FM to Protect Listeners: 289                                     Rule 105: Notice of Motion by Mr Bekker: 702
   ANCs Victory in Mkhambathini Ward: 1973                                 Minister in Charge of the Dept of Housing: 855
   M Passing Away of Mrs Lindiwe Kubheka: 2111                             Rentals in Cato Manor Area: 968
   Men Should Protect Women: 2156                                          Legalise and Promote Cottage Industries: 1267
   Mr T Leon not to Head KZN Dept of Housing: 2187                         Appointment of Capable MECs: 1356
   Transport Forum Programmes: 2364                                        Treat Residents of Cato Manor Fairly: 1618
   Promises to Victims of Political Violence: 2707                         IFP and ANC to Continue with Dialogue: 1756
   Involvement of Political Parties in Taxi Violence: 3308                 Investigate Exploitation of the Poor: 1913
   Conditions at Namzamo School: 3514                                      Funding for Schools for the Poor: 1974
   Members Elected to the African Parliament: 3708                         Investigate Appointment of Chief Director in DEC: 2118
   Department of Transport Fighting Poverty: 3876                          Reinstate Indian Language Educators: 2191
   Point of Order: 126, 2298, 2619, 2795, 3633                             M Reward for Service Excellence - Etekhwini: 2296
 Motions:                                                                  Equitable Allocation of Funds for Culture: 2363
   IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2274                                       M Transformation in the Horse Racing Industry: 2439
   Killing of Public Representatives: 3395                                 Supports Licensing of Route & Site Operators: 2606
   Robinson Manzi Commission of Enquiry Report: 3426                       DA sold out the Indian Community: 2801
 Debates:                                                                  Debate between Leader of MF and Mr Tony Leon: 2876
   Report: Minister of Housing: 469                                        M Recommit KZN Racing and Betting Bill: 3160
   The Statement by the Premier: 1535                                      M Respect Confidentiality of Reports: 3306
   The Trafficking of Women and Children: 2101                             Notice of Motion by Mrs Ambler-Moore on 12.11.03: 3519
   Report: Minister of Transport: 2336, 2908, 2912, 3323, 3326, 3327       M Dept of Education not to Let School Premises: 3558
   Report: Minister of Public Works: 3443, 3839, 3859, 3885                Dr Buthelezi and Homelands: 3626
   Safety and Security Study Tour Report: 2777                             M Use Existing School Premises: 3705
   Report: The Public Works Portfolio Committee: 3280, 3284, 3285, 3301    Extend Financial Assistance to all Groups: 3873
   Report by the Premier: 3657, 3658, 3659, 3660, 3661                     Point of Order: 128, 2115, 2878, 3512
   Report: Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development: 3998    Motions:
 Discussions:                                                              Order Paper Amended: 22
   Notice of Motion by Mr Gwala: 520                                       Crime, Violence and the Death Penalty: 234
   Remark made by Mr Christians: 1033                                      Support for the African Union and NEPAD: 279
   Comment made by Mr Malakoana: 2345                                      Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 323
 Explanation in Terms of Rule 106: 4043                                    Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 547, 705, 1127, 1130, 1131, 1144, 1153,
                                                                            1156
RAJBANSI, A:                                                               IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2256, 2268, 2278
 Announcement by the Speaker: 2109                                         Consolidation of a Co-operative Government in KZN: 2514
   Withdraws Remark: 3622                                                  Remuneration of the Premier: 2608
 Tabling of Reports:                                                       Extension for Submission of Registerable Assets of Members: 2621, 2623Matter
   Point of Order: 346                                                     of Public Importance - Toll Roads in KZN: 2702
   KwaZulu-Natal Petitions Bill and Memorandum: 3700                       Allocation of Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees: 2709, 3125, 3129, 3503,
 Bills:                                                                     3504
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                 Extension: Business Rehabilitation Trust Fund: 3150
      Budget Debate: 602, 636, 647                                         Robinson Manzi Commission of Enquiry Report: 3410, 3412
                                      43                                                                                 44

   Disciplinary Enquiries Against Members of the Legislature: 3471, 3475, 3529,        Condemns Sloppy Press Reports: 2610
    3530, 3532                                                                         Provincial SCOPA to Investigate Corruption: 2794
   Appointment of Additional Government Members to the Development Tribunal:           Investigate DA Activities in the Dept of Housing: 3057
    3619                                                                               Mr Aulsebrook to Resign: 3702
   From Executive Board in Respect of the Occupation of LA Flats in Ulundi: 3775       Point of Order: 2443, 2805, 2879
   Designate Members for Liaison: 4195, 4199, 4203                                   Motions:
 Debates:                                                                              Support for the African Union and NEPAD: 83, 269, 275
   Report by the Premier: 36, 41, 43, 3661, 3664, 3671, 3672, 3673                     IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2254, 2256, 2279
   State of the Province Address by the Premier: 156                                   Physical Education in School Curriculum: 2866
   Report: Minister of Education and Culture: 406, 413, 2497, 2627, 2632, 3945,      Debates:
   3966                                                                                Public Accounts Resolutions: 2145, 2975, 2983, 4024, 4033
   Report: Minister of Housing: 458, 473, 2444, 2453, 3969, 3978, 3979                 NCOP Matters: 2674
   Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Fourth         Report by the Premier: 3675, 3677
   Amendment Bill (B69B-2002): 497                                                   Discussions:
   The Statement by the Premier: 1537, 1539                                            Remark made by Mr Mzobe: 248, 250
   The Public Accounts Standing Committee Resolutions: 2139                            Comment by Mr Rajbansi: 712
   Special Debate to Celebrate Youth Month: 2215, 2216                                 Discussion in Terms of Rule 99(a)(i): 1893
   Transport Portfolio Committee Report - Overseas Study Tour: 2240, 2245            Explanation in Terms of Rule 106: 4187, 4189
   Report: Minister of Transport: 2330, 2893, 3332
   Report: Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and      SHABALALA, Miss L F:
    Security: 2477, 2932, 3352, 4076                                                 Bill:
   Report: Minister of Economic Development and Tourism: 2826                          KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
   Report: Minister of Social Welfare & Population Development: 3371                       Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1107
   Report: Minister of Public Works: 3435, 3742, 3853, 3880                                Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1400
   Report as per Motion by Mrs J M Downs: 3095, 3105, 3106                                 Vote 12: Department of Transport: 929
   Statement by the Deputy Speaker: 3461, 3479                                       Notices of Motion:
   Respect Confidentiality of Reports: 3484, 3500                                      Wishes the ANC well on its Birthday: 17
   Resolution of the Executive Board on Ulundi Flats: 3534                             Disappointment with Minister Ngcobo: 122
   Legislative Proposal: Restriction of Access to Public Places: 3536, 3545, 3549      Congratulates Miriam Makheba on 71st Birthday: 300
 Discussions:                                                                          Respect the Role of the Media: 349
   Speaker's List: 264, 266, 3974, 3975                                                IFP and Delivery to the People of KZN: 525
   On Adjournment: 393, 1146                                                           The War in Iraq: 548
   Tabling of Finance Portfolio Committee Report: 540, 541, 542                        Deploy Security Guards at Smero School: 2158
   Notice of Motion by Mr Rajbansi: 706                                                DA not to Oppose the Terrorism Legislation: 2366
   Notice of Motion by Mr Burrows: 708                                                 M Support Victims of Iraqi War: 2441
   Comment by Mr Rajbansi: 712                                                         Word "Illegitimate Child" to be Abolished: 2614
   Distribution of Speeches: 2314                                                      IFP Should Dismiss Mayor of Ebagulusini: 2710
   Comment made by Mr Keys: 2801, 2802                                                 IFP to Desist from Giving Misleading Reports: 2796
   Suspension of Rule 170(3): 3257                                                     IFP Organisations Should Elect Own Leaders: 3062
   Procedure: 3463                                                                     DA's Call for Crime Statistics: 3314
   Rulings by the Speaker: 3622                                                        Teachers to be Paid: 3509
   Best Wishes for the Festive Season: 4207                                            ANC Deploying Cadres: 3565
 Explanation in Terms of Rule 106(2): 3749, 3751                                       Children & Women Abuse: 3707
                                                                                       Members not to Abuse Powers of the House: 3875
RAJU, M N:                                                                           Debate:
 Notice of Motion:                                                                     Report: Minister of Transport: 2902
   Applauds Zimbabwe and Kenya in Qualifying for the Super-Six: 295
                                                                                    SINGH, O:
SCOTT, Mrs B:                                                                         Bills:
 Bills:                                                                                 KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                                 Vote 12: Department of Transport: 902
      Budget Debate: 606                                                                   Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1584
      Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1651, 1687                           KwaZulu-Natal Land Administration Bill, 2003: 3267
      Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2048                                 KwaZulu-Natal Petitions Bill, 2003: 3836
      Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1889, 1891, 1893, 1895, 1896, 1898               Notices of Motion:
   KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill: 4153, 4156, 4159,            High Court Decision on Disability Grants: 88
    4182                                                                                Employment Procedures in Government Service: 353
 Notices of Motion:                                                                     Iraq to Elect own Government: 968
   Review Contents of the Order Paper: 966                                              Support 16 day Campaign against Violence: 3561
   M ANC's Victories in By-Elections: 2187                                            Motion:
                                         45                                                                             46

   Human Rights in Zimbabwe: 326                                                        Vote 2: The Provincial Legislature: 1952
  Debates:                                                                              Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1682
   Report: Minister of Housing: 463                                                     Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1730
   Transport Portfolio Committee Report - Overseas Study Tour: 2251                     Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2049, 2062
   Report: Minister of Public Works: 3846                                               Vote 10: Royal Household: 749
                                                                                        Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1424
SINGH, N:                                                                               Vote 12: Department of Transport: 900, 924, 941
  [Minister of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs - until 14 April 2003]             Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1331
  [Minister of Education and Culture - as from 14 April 2003]                        KwaZulu-Natal Land Administration Bill, 2003: 3272
  Announcements by the Premier                                                       KwaZulu-Natal Petitions Bill, 2003: 3833
    Explains Premier's Absence: 345                                                  KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill: 3935, 4143
    Faction Fighting in Ngudwini: 345                                               Notices of Motion:
    Premier to Make Announcement: 1258                                               Investigate Sexual Abuse of Animals: 1268
    Invites Members to a Cocktail Party: 2108                                        Passing Away of Mr W Sisulu: 1758
  Tabling of Reports:                                                                Upgrade the Legislature Facilities: 1974
    Illegal Developments along KZN Coast: 346, 347                                   KZN Province with Third Highest Crime Rate: 3156
    Strategic Plan of the Dept of Education & Culture: 1548                          Security of Prisoners in Police Custody: 3560
    Annual Report: Dept of Education and Culture: 3147                               Suspension of Standing Rules 160 & 183: 4053
    Financial Statements: Amafa aKwaZulu-Natali: 3147                               Motions:
    Financial Statements of the Emandleni-Matleng Youth Training Centre -            Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1131, 1144, 1154
       31 March 2003: 3623                                                           ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2409
  Bills:                                                                             Consolidation of a Co-operative Government in KZN: 2529
    KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                          Alleviation of Poverty and Unemployment: 2559
       Budget Debate: 587                                                            Remuneration of the Premier: 2609
       Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 1978, 2069                       Extension for Submission of Registerable Assets of Members: 2623
       Vote 10: Royal Household: 722                                                 Matter of Public Importance - Toll Roads in KZN: 2583, 2599
    KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill: 4167                     Physical Education in School Curriculum: 2859
  Notices of Motion:                                                                 Allocation of Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees: 3127, 3504
    Provide Proof of Partiality to the IFP: 348                                      Extension: Business Rehabilitation Trust Fund: 3150
    Condolences - Road Accident Deaths: 1619                                         Liaison: Monarch, Legislature and Cabinet: 3224
    M "Child Protection is Everybody's Business": 2154                               Killing of Public Representatives: 3388
  Motions:                                                                           Robinson Manzi Commission of Enquiry Report: 3417, 3420, 3421
    Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1136, 1149, 1151                                 Disciplinary Enquiries Against Members of the Legislature: 3473, 3475, 3529,
    Designate Members for Liaison: 4196                                               3533
  Debates:                                                                           Appointment of Additional Government Members to the Development Tribunal:
    Liaison: Monarch, Legislature and Cabinet: 3010, 3019                             3619
    Report as per Motion by Mrs J M Downs: 3106                                      From Executive Board in Respect of the Occupation of LA Flats in Ulundi: 3778
    The Premier's Report: 52                                                         Designate Members for Liaison: 4196, 4204
    The Statement by the Premier: 1526
    Report: Minister of Education and Culture: 2493, 2498, 2641, 2765,              Debates:
     2968, 3800, 3959                                                                 The Statement by the Premier: 1542
  Explanation in Terms of Rule 106(2): 3748                                           Special Debate to Celebrate Youth Month: 2208
                                                                                      Report: Minister of Transport: 2331, 2373, 2898, 3333, 3337
SITHOLE, G:                                                                           Report: Minister of Housing: 2457, 2468, 2472
  Bill:                                                                               Report: Minister of Education and Culture: 2633, 3949
    KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                           Report: Minister of Economic Development and Tourism: 2814, 4099
        Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1071                  Report: Minister of Health: 2836, 3920
  Notice of Motion:                                                                   Report: Minister of Social Welfare & Population Development: 3372, 3997
    ANC to Prevent Changes made by Yamampela: 3518                                    Report: Minister of Public Works: 3439, 3854, 3882
  Debates:                                                                            Report as per Motion by Mrs J M Downs: 3092, 3101
    Report: Minister of Economic Development and Tourism: 2822                        National Health Bill B32B-2003: 3241
    Report: Minister of Traditional and Local Government and Affairs and Safety &     Statement by the Deputy Speaker: 3461, 3481
     Security: 2921                                                                   Respect Confidentiality of Reports: 3494
                                                                                      Resolution of the Executive Board on Ulundi Flats: 3534
SLABBERT, J H:                                                                        Legislative Proposal: Restriction of Access to Public Places: 3550
  Announcement by the Premier:                                                        Report by the Premier: 3667
    Commends the Speaker and Deputy Speaker: 2429                                     Resolution in Respect of the Appointment of the Public Service Commissioner:
  Bills:                                                                               3697
    KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                         Discussions:
       Budget Debate: 650, 663                                                        Extension of Time for Notices of Motion: 859
                                      47                                                                                 48

   On Adjournment: 1147                                                             Social Welfare Appeal Cases at Truro House: 3511
   Changes to the Order Paper: 1551, 4055                                           Eid Mubarak and Muslim Learners: 3564
   Good Wishes for Easter: 1613                                                     M Mrs Ambler-Moore's Comments re Mr Rajbansi: 3702
   Distribution of Speeches: 2314                                                   Establish a Women's University: 3869
   Unparliamentary Language: 2521                                                  Motions:
   Comment made by Mr Keys: 2804                                                    Support for the African Union and NEPAD: 268
   Suspension of Rule 170(3): 3258                                                  Killing of Public Representatives: 3381
   Procedure: 3463                                                                  Robinson Manzi Commission of Enquiry Report: 3413
   Best Wishes for the Festive Season: 4207                                        Debates:
                                                                                    Report: Minister of Health: 438, 2649, 2832, 3916
SWARTBOOI, Miss G N:                                                                The Trafficking of Women and Children: 2087
 Bill:                                                                              Special Debate to Celebrate Youth Month: 2210
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                          Report: Minister of Economic Development and Tourism: 2811, 4098
       Vote 10: Royal Household: 744                                                Public Accounts Resolutions: 2979
       Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1325       NCOP Matters: 2667
 Notices of Motion:                                                                 National Health Bill B32B-2003: 3239
   Investigate Social Grant - Mrs Merriet Khumalo: 2123                             Report: Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development: 3994
   Congratulates Bafana Bafana: 2184
   IFP to Reprimand Mr Malakoana: 2443                                           THUSI, Mrs W G:
   Do not Blame the ANC for the Failures of the IFP: 3520                         Bill:
 Debates:                                                                           KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
   Special Debate to Celebrate Youth Month: 2204                                        Vote 7: Department of Health: 812
   Report: Minister of Housing: 3970, 3983                                              Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1299
 Discussion:                                                                      Notices of Motion:
   Parliamentary Procedure: 1553                                                    Support National Minister of Health: 1621
                                                                                    Saving of Amina Lawal's Life: 3158
                                                                                    Minister of Health Report at HIV/AIDS Indaba: 3872
TAMBO, Miss V:                                                                    Debate:
 Notice of Motion:                                                                  Report: Minister of Health: 428, 2656
   M Vote for the ANC: 3625
 Bill:                                                                           VILANE, J S:
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                         Notice of Motion:
       Vote 7: Department of Health: 795                                             DA did not Contest Ward 12 in By-election: 3713
 Debates:                                                                          Bill:
   Report: Minister of Transport: 2325                                               KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
   Report: Minister of Health: 3910                                                      Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1678
                                                                                         Vote 7: Department of Health: 826
THAKUR-RAJBANSI, Mrs S:                                                                  Vote 14: Department of Public Works: 1571
 Bills:                                                                            Debates:
   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:                                           Report: Minister of Health: 2645
      Vote 3: Department of Environmental Affairs: 1675                              Report: Minister of Public Works: 3431, 3877
      Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1722                                        Report: Minister of Housing: 3979
      Vote 4: Department of Economic Development and Tourism: 1090
      Vote 7: Department of Health: 815                                          VOLKER, V A:
      Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1201                             Bills:
      Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1316,       KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
       1333                                                                            Budget Debate: 599
   KwaZulu-Natal Business Rehabilitation Trust Fund Amendment Bill, 2003: 2689         Vote 1: The Office of the Premier: 1794
   KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill: 3935, 4141                  Vote 2: The Provincial Legislature: 1933
 Notices of Motion:                                                                    Vote 3: Department of Agriculture: 1712
   Establish a Victim Empowerment Programme: 697                                       Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1870
   CSG to Include Children up to 18: 1159                                              Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1011
   Maintenance Act to be Enforced: 1621                                                Vote 9: Department of Safety and Security: 1194
   Implement a Village Adoption Scheme: 2121                                           Vote 10: Royal Household: 734
   Investigate Mortuary Facilities: 2157                                               Vote 11: Department of Local Government: 1398
   Review Composition of KZN Youth Commission: 2188                                    Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1473
   Implement Policing Programmes in the Province: 2360                                 Vote 12: Department of Transport: 922
   Fast track Drug Policy for Schools: 2797                                            Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1309
   MEC to Visit Police Stations: 3058                                               KwaZulu-Natal Business Rehabilitation Trust Fund Amendment Bill, 2003: 2694
   Provide Hot Midday Meals to Learners: 3156                                       KwaZulu-Natal Land Administration Bill, 2003: 3268
                                     49                                                                                50

  KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill: 4129                       Suspension of Rule 170(3): 3258
Notices of Motion:                                                                   Procedure: 3463
  Authorities to Deal with Road Carnage: 12                                          Best Wishes for the Festive Season: 4206
  Wishes the Protea Cricket Team Well: 83
  Mother-Tongue Education: 291                                                    XABA, V C:
  Change of Name by the DP to the DA: 523                                          Tabling of Report:
  Promote Economic Development in KZN: 550                                           Finance Portfolio Committee Report: Budget Hearings: 539, 542
  Promote Agricultural Productivity: 1267                                            Finance Portfolio Committee Midyear Expenditure Review: 3557
  Position of Coalition Partners: 2121                                             Bills:
  IFP & ANC to Govern Responsibly: 2357                                              KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
  IFP to Respect Starting Time of Sitting: 2436                                         Budget Debate: 551, 610
  KZN Coalition most Volatile in the World: 2616                                        Vote 5: Department of Education and Culture: 2037, 2061
  Coalition Partners to Cease Petty Politicking: 2715                                   Vote 6: Department of Finance: 1895
  Leaders of Parties to Act Responsibly: 2885                                           Vote 8: Department of Housing: 1031
  ANC to Respect Starting Time of Sitting: 3058                                         Vote 10: Royal Household: 754
  Legislature is Subjected to Mobocracy: 3161                                           Vote 11: Department of Traditional Affairs: 1458
  Commends the Executive Board: 3509                                                 The Amended KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003: 2167, 2168
  Roads Construction and Tugela Basin: 3866                                          KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill: 4107, 4151, 4172
  Point of Order: 3065                                                             Notices of Motion:
Motions:                                                                             Congratulates Mr Mbeki for Outstanding Stewardship: 130
  Support for the African Union and NEPAD: 263                                       Call for Dismissal of Minister of Home Affairs: 292
  Premier to Re-instate ANC MECs: 1130, 1141, 1147, 1148, 1149, 1153                 Steps to be Taken against Mr Barend Strydom: 1620
  ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2408                              Motion of No Confidence in the Speaker: 2875
  Consolidation of a Co-operative Government in KZN: 2512                            Point of Order: 517
  Alleviation of Poverty and Unemployment: 2573                                    Motions:
  Matter of Public Importance - Toll Roads in KZN: 2580, 2701                        Order Paper Amended: 22
  Liaison: Monarch, Legislature and Cabinet: 2999                                    Support for the African Union and NEPAD: 281
  1999 Coalition Agreement Between IFP and ANC: 3036                                 NCOP Delegates: 1606
  Allocation of Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees: 3129                           IFP Upholds Good Governance: 2277
  Killing of Public Representatives: 3380                                            ANC and IFP to Resolve Outstanding Undertakings: 2412
  Disciplinary Enquiries Against Members of the Legislature: 3470, 3475, 3532        Consolidation of a Co-operative Government in KZN: 2516, 2524, 2526
  From Executive Board in Respect of the Occupation of LA Flats in Ulundi: 3774      1999 Coalition Agreement Between IFP and ANC: 3044
  Designate Members for Liaison: 4194, 4202                                          Allocation of Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees: 3131, 3141
Debates:                                                                             Disciplinary Enquiries Against Members of the Legislature: 3473
  Report by the Premier: 37, 3646                                                  Debates:
  State of the Province Address by the Premier: 154                                  The Premier's Report: 24, 33, 62
  Voting Mandate on the Constitution of South Africa Fourth Amendment Bill           Provincial Mandate: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Fourth
   [B69B-2003]: 535                                                                  Amendment Bill (B69B-2002): 504
  NCOP Matters: 2666                                                                 Voting Mandate on the Constitution of South Africa Fourth Amendment Bill
  The Statement by the Premier: 1534, 1536                                           [B69B-2003]: 530
  The Public Accounts Standing Committee Resolutions: 2135, 2978                     NCOP Matters: 2664, 2678
  Report: Minister of Transport: 2371, 2892                                          The Public Accounts Standing Committee Resolutions: 2129
  Report: Minister of Housing: 2457, 3977                                            Finance Portfolio Committee Midyear Expenditure Review: 3569
  Report: Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and      Discussions:
   Security: 2476, 2931, 3351                                                        Amendments to the Order Paper: 8, 9
  Safety and Security Study Tour Report: 2785                                        Rule 97: 43
  Report: Minister of Education and Culture: 2960                                    Remark made by Mr Mzobe: 246, 247, 250
  Report: Minister of Social Welfare & Population Development: 3371                  Notice of Motion by Mr Gwala: 514, 515
  Report: Minister of Agriculture & Environmental Affairs: 4064                      Tabling of Finance Portfolio Committee Report: 539, 540
  Report as per Motion by Mrs J M Downs: 3094                                        Tabling of Strategic Plans: 709, 710
  Statement by the Deputy Speaker: 3459, 3460, 3478
  Respect Confidentiality of Reports: 3492                                        ZULU, Prince G L:
  Legislative Proposal: Restriction of Access to Public Places: 3544               [Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development]
Discussions:                                                                       Tabling of Reports or Papers:
  Tabling of Finance Portfolio Committee Report: 539, 541                            Strategic Plan - Dept of Social Welfare and Population Development: 852
  On Adjournment: 1146                                                             Bill:
  Changes to the Order Paper: 1551                                                   KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill, 2003:
  Good Wishes for Easter: 1612                                                           Vote 13: Department of Social Welfare and Population Development: 1270,
  The Distribution of Speeches: 2314                                                     1346
  Comment made by Mr Malakoana: 2434, 2435                                         Debate:
                                    51

  Report: Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development: 3208,
  3215, 3687, 4006
Discussions:
  Notice of Motion by Mrs Nkonyeni: 700
  Prince G L Zulu's Health: 3207, 3208
                      DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
               KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE


                               FIFTH SESSION
                   NINTH SITTING - FOURTH SITTING DAY
                      THURSDAY, 04 DECEMBER 2003


THE HOUSE MET AT 10H05 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG. THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.


THE SPEAKER: The House resumes.


2.       OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS


3.       ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION


4.       ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER


THE SPEAKER: Anginazo izimemezelo engingazisho okwamanje. [I have no announcements to make at this point in time].


5.       ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORTS BY THE PREMIER


6.       TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS


THE SPEAKER: Hon Mr Ngidi?


MR S B NGIDI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Allow me to table the report on the revised May 2003 Resolutions adopted by the House in May 2003 on the 1997/1998, 1998/1999, 1999/2000 and
2001/2002 Auditor-General's report.


May I also table the report of Resolutions recommended by the Standing Committee on Public Accounts on the 2002/2003 Auditor-General's report. I thank you, Mr Speaker.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: Hon Minister of Transport?


MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): On behalf of the Premier and Cabinet, I table the full and final report of the Judicial Taxi Commission of Inquiry into taxi violence and related
                                                                                              3866


matters. The report is being tabled, and as per the Resolution of Cabinet, it also goes to the Director of Public Prosecutions, Auditor-General and the nine provinces' Departments of Transport.
Thank you.


MR Y S BHAMJEE: A point of order, Mr Speaker.


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Bhamjee?


MR Y S BHAMJEE: I just want to know whether it is in order for the hon Ngidi to table the report when he is not the Chairperson of the Public Accounts Committee.


THE SPEAKER: If he has been requested by that committee to do so, or the Chairperson of that committee, he can do so on behalf of that committee. Thank you.


MR Y S BHAMJEE: Hon Speaker, I pose the question and I would like the hon Ngidi to inform this House whether he was mandated by the committee or not.


THE SPEAKER: Hon Mr Ngidi?


MR S B NGIDI: Mr Speaker, the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee is in hospital and indisposed. He has kindly requested me to table this on his behalf.


THE SPEAKER: Mr Ngidi, you should have indicated that you have been requested by the Chairperson to do so. Thank you.


MR S B NGIDI: I beg your indulgence, Mr Speaker.


7.       NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS


THE SPEAKER: Item 7. Hon member Mr Volker?


MR V A VOLKER: Mr Speaker, I would like to give notice of the following motion:


         This House supports the roads construction plan first mooted by Tino Volker to develop a road infrastructure in KwaZulu-Natal linking Pietermaritzburg, Ulundi, Richards Bay and
         Durban as an initiative to create and develop the Province's infrastructure as a basis for economic and industrial development and job creation. This plan, linked to the development of
         the Eastern section of the Tugela Basin, is vital for the essential development of the depressed area and for the sake of a more balanced economic development in KwaZulu-Natal.


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mrs Ambler-Moore?
                                                                                                3867


MRS M AMBLER-MOORE: Thank you, Mr Speaker. On the next sitting day of this House I will move that:


        This House noting:


        that yesterday 3 December was International Day for People with Disabilities;


        that people with disabilities are still discriminated against and that they are often limited to where they can go, where they can live and where they can receive eduction because of a
        lack of facilities;


        that they are often pitied instead of being treated normally; and


        that many are ignorant of the needs of the disabled.


        Resolves:


        to call on each one of us to do what we can to ensure the disabled are treated equally not differently. Thank you.


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Mthimkhulu?


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: Thank you, Mr Speaker. On the next sitting day of this House I will move as follows:


        Noting:


        that about 60 000 people have perished in Sri Lanka in a protracted war between freedom fighters of the Tamil Tigers and the Sinhalese racist government; and


        that the nine (9) member delegation of Tamil Tigers are in South Africa, per the invitation of the ANC, to share experiences on how the ANC successfully brought apartheid to its knees
        in this country.


        this House resolves:


        to fully support the ANC on its call to the international community in general and South Africans in particular to rally behind the Tamil Tigers in their quest for freedom in Sri Lanka.


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mrs Mohlaka?
                                                                                               3868




MRS B S MOHLAKA: I shall move on the next sitting day of this House that:


         Noting that the Premier's HIV/AIDS Indaba 2003 Conference held at the ICC in Durban was a success.


         this House resolves to congratulate the Premier of KwaZulu-Natal, the hon Dr L P H M Mtshali, Minister of Health, the hon Dr L Z Mkhize and the Cabinet for their steadfast leadership
         throughout this project.


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Keys?


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will move on the next sitting of this House that:


         Noting:


         the imminent merger of the University of Durban-Westville and the University of Natal on 1 January 2004, and the chaos that has bedeviled the University of Durban Westville.


         this House resolves:


         to call on the selection committee to make the best possible choice of vice-chancellor for the University of KwaZulu-Natal, so that tertiary education in the Province will continue to be a
         beacon of learning and development in the Province.


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mrs Rajbansi?


MRS S THAKUR-RAJBANSI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:


         Noting:


         that "an enlightened woman is a source of infinite strength" and therefore we need a bold social reform to advance illiterate and vulnerable women; and


         that we need an action plan focusing on three aspects. That is Education, Health and income-generating activities.


         This House resolves:
                                                                                                            3869


              to request the hon Minister of Education to set up a Women's University that would be unlike other institutions of higher learning, besides teaching and research, it would integrate the
              curricula with community and social services to make these women self-reliant.


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mrs Thusi? I saw you standing, hon member. You are not ready. Okay, fine. Hon member Mr Naicker?


MR S V NAICKER: Mr Speaker, I shall move on the next sitting day:


              Noting:


              that there is an absence of proper post mortem facilities at the KwaDukuza police mortuary as evidenced by the lack of lighting, the rusting of equipment, utensils, the lack of personnel
              and personal assistants.


          We call upon:


          The hon Minister of Health of KwaZulu-Natal to investigate and report on the following:


                       What is the correct status of the facilities of the KwaDukuza police mortuary;


                       Is there a need for existing facilities to be upgraded, and if so, to give details of such upgrade; and


                       What medical cover is there for performance of emergency post mortems and whenever required over weekends?


          That the hon Minister of Health would address this important issue.


The Speaker ruled the motion by Mr S V Naicker, out of order in that it exceeded the maximum of 100 words as laid down by Rule 136(1) of the Standing Rules.



THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Edwards?


MR B V EDWARDS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will move on the next sitting day of this House:


          This House noting:


          the foolhardy proposal of the IFP/DA coalition to spend up to R80 million on the construction of a new complex for the House of Traditional Leaders in Ulundi; and
                                                                                             3870




         Further noting that the unused former Parliamentary Chamber stands empty and has been offered by the Legislature to the House of Traditional Leaders, totally rejects such wasteful
         expenditure. This view is supported by NNP and other parties.


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Krog?


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Point of order, please, Mr Speaker.


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Keys, what is your point of order?


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, the former hon member is misleading the House by deliberately misinforming this House as to the position the DA takes on the question of the
House of Traditional Leaders.


The DA has made it clear that the existing Chamber would be suitable for that purpose, and that hon member needs to withdraw that statement as he is misleading the House.


THE SPEAKER: I will request the hon member to do that in writing so that we can make proper investigations, and then I will come back to the House. Thank you. Mr Krog?


MR J KROG: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I hereby give notice that at the next sitting day I will move as follows:


         Noting that:


         The Director-General, Dr Crispean Olver, on behalf of the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, Valli Moosa, authorised the new toll road between Durban and East London.


         Further noting:


         That the road will run through a planned nature reserve and protected area along the Pondoland coast.


         Noting that:


         This Legislature and the eThekwini Municipality opposed the suggested tolling of the road within the boundaries of eThekwini.


         Therefore:
                                                                                                             3871


          This Legislature expresses its concern that the road will run through an ecologically sensitive area and allow for an Australian firm to start mining in the area.


          This Legislature re-affirms its decision against the tolling of the road and against the road which will cause ruin for towns such as Umtata, Mount Frere, Mount Ayliff and Kokstad.


The Speaker ruled the motion by Mr J Krog, out of order in that it exceeded the maximum of 100 words as laid down by Rule 136(1) of the Standing Rules.



THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mrs Thusi?


MRS W G THUSI: Ngiyabonga Somlomo. Bengingasukumile kodwa uyathanda ukuthi ngiphakamise imoshini. [Thank you Mr Speaker. I was not standing but you would like me to move a
motion] Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of this House I will move that:


          This House congratulates the Minister of Health, the hon Dr Zweli Mkhize, for the comprehensive report he gave to the public in the HIV/AIDS Indaba at the ICC on what the
          government is doing in the fight against the scourge of HIV/AIDS.


          Sithi Phambili Khabazela. [We say forward Khabazela]. This House will support your Department all the way.


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mrs kaNkosi-Shandu?


MRS E E N KANKOSI-SHANDU: (Whip): Mr Speaker, I shall move on the next sitting day as follows:


          Noting:


          That KwaBanakile is one of the most rural and isolated areas of KZN;


          Further noting with empathy their plight of losing their clinic, Qalukubheka through fire on 1 December 2003.


          This House expresses their condolences to the community of Banakile and request the hon Minister to move with agility in setting interim measures to alleviate the plight of the
          community of Banakile.


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Rajbansi?


MR A RAJBANSI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:
                                                                                                 3872


         That it be recognised with appreciation that the Provincial Government is affording financial assistance to the various religious and cultural groups for religious and cultural functions.


         Therefore it be resolved to request the Ministry and the Department of Education and Culture not only to offer such assistance in a selective manner but to ensure that all organisations
         are properly informed and treated fairly, and this be an annual affair, not only before an election.


         it further be resolved to request those in charge of renaming places such as roads to take into consideration the contributions of persons from across the cultural landscape of South
         Africa.


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Malakoana?


MR M S MALAKOANA: Baba Somlomo. Ngokuhlala kwaleNdlu okulandelayo ngiyophakamisa kanje.


         LeNdlu:


         izizwa ihlazeka ngokuphangaphanga kwezisebenzi zeMinyango ethile kaHulumeni njengoDokotela Kwazi Mbanjwa woMnyango weZokuthutha osephume uphozoma esebenzisa
         isikhundla sakhe ukushaya amaqembu ezombusazwe nabanye oNgqongqoshe emicimbini yoMnyango wakhe.


         lezi ziga sezehle kaningana emicimbini enjengaseNquthu, Mnambithi, NasObuka lapho nxa elunywa yimizwa yokulwa ngamazwi ezombusazwe aqonele lamaqembu phambi
         kukaNgqongqoshe ophethe uMnyango kwehle kuthi cosololo kuye ...


MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): Point of order, Mr Speaker.


THE SPEAKER: There is a point of order, Mr Malakoana. Hon Minister of Transport?


MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): Mr Speaker, this House has previously resolved that we shall not use our positions here to attack officials who cannot respond. So if he wants to
attack the Department of Transport, let him speak to the person who can answer.


THE SPEAKER: I will request the hon Minister to put that in writing.


MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): The point of order is that he cannot continue attacking an official.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! Again I will request, hon Minister, that you put that in writing so that I can make a proper ruling tomorrow. Thank you.
                                                                                                    3873


MR M S MALAKOANA: LeNdlu:


        iphakamisa ukuba labo abazisebenzi zeMinyango abaphiswa ukungena kwezombusazwe ngcono kusakhanya bangene ohlwini lwamagama alabo abaklelele ukungena ePhalamende
        ngo-2004 noma bapheze ukusebenzisa izikhundla ukufeza izinjongo zeqembu elithile. Kasizona iziphungimangathi.


TRANSLATION: Mr Speaker, on the next sitting day of this House I wish to move the following motion:


        This House:


        feels embarrassed by the hastiness of certain governmental officials such as Dr Kwazi Mbanjwa of the Transport Department who has come out using his position to attack political
        parties and other Ministers in his Department's ceremonial functions.


        These events have occurred on numerous occasions in ceremonies such as at Nquthu, Ladysmith, and at Obuka where he has attacked in political terms and decides to be
        disrespectful to these parties in front of the Minister who heads his Department to his satisfaction.


        This House resolves that those who are employees of departments who are eager to enter into politics should register their names on the list of those who are waiting to enter
        Parliament in 2004 whilst it is still early, or desist from abusing their positions to fulfil the interests of certain parties. We are not idiots. T/E


THE SPEAKER: Any further motions? Thank you. Hon Prof Khubisa?


PROF M N KHUBISA: Thank you, Mr Speaker. On the next sitting day of this House I shall move as follows:


        Noting the fact that we still have forces of darkness whose behaviour displays not only political innocence, but also political ignorance, this House resolves to discourage those who are
        out with their blunt swords to attack a progressive move of building the House of Traditional Leaders at Ulundi.


        this House further requests the Parliament to design a curriculum which embraces a crash course that will teach political amateurs about the historical role of Traditional Leaders
        whose leadership has always stood the test of time.


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Miss Shabalala?


MISS L F SHABALALA: Baba Somlomo. Ngokuhlala kwaleNdlu okulandelayo ngiyophakamisa kanje.


        LeNdlu:
                                                                                            3874




        iyakubalula ukusetshenziswa kwamandla ngamalungu aleNdlu ukuphosa amagama anohlevana abhekiswe kwizisebenzi zeminyango ezingakwazi ukuziphendulela;


        kanjalo ibalula ukuthi amalungu amakomiti awabeke izinto etafuleni emakomitini hhayi ukuxhaphaza amandla eNdlu.


TRANSLATION: Mr Speaker, on the next sitting day of this House I wish to move the following motion:


        This House:


        Notices the use of power by members of this House to utter malicious words directed at departmental employees who cannot respond;


        it therefore suggests that committee members should table matters before their own committees and not abuse the powers of this House. T/E


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Dr Radebe?


DR B M RADEBE: Baba Somlomo. Ngokuhlala kwaleNdlu okulandelayo ngiyophakamisa kanje.


        LeNdlu:


        ibongela uMnyango weZokuthutha KwaZulu-Natali ngomsebenzi oncomekayo okuze kwabalulwa uMongameli weZwe uMnumzane Thabo Mbeki ngokuqhamuka namasu okulwisana
        nobubha kubantu bakithi ngohlelo olunjengoZibambele noVukuzenzele. Ngithi Phambili Manzankosi Phambili.


TRANSLATION: Mr Speaker, on the next sitting day of this House I wish to move the following motion:


        This House congratulates the KwaZulu-Natal Transport Department for a job well done which was also praised by the country's president, Mr Thabo Mbeki, for initiating the plans of
        fighting poverty against our people, projects such as Vukuzenzele and Zimbambele.


        I say forward Manzankosi, forward! T/E


THE SPEAKER: Okay, we move to item 8. To start the debate, I will call upon the hon member Mr Vilane. You have four minutes to deliberate.


8.      ORDERS OF THE DAY
                                                                                                 3875


8.1       DEBATE: REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS IN TERMS OF RULE 10(4)


MR J S VILANE: Thank you, Mr Speaker and the hon House. I would like to thank the Minister for his report that he tabled in this House on Thursday, the 27th.


When the Minister of Finance reported to this House, he informed us that this House was in a deficit.


The Cabinet has the guts to push ahead with a plan to erect a building in Ulundi. It is not clear whether this is a political statement or not. If it is not, somebody must tell us. The ANC
component will never support that kind of decision.


It is quite clear from the Minister's report that there is no need for a new building for the House of Traditional Leaders. There is an existing building which will cost R35 million to renovate, thus
saving R45 million from the R80 million that will be needed.


No one can convince us that we must spend R80 million to erect a new building while there is enough space in the existing building, unless someone wishes to fulfil a political mandate which,
unfortunately on this side of the House, says "Sorry, Sketi Lisheti Kute", while there is a serious shortfall in the Departments of Health and Welfare.


The Cabinet wants to spend money on the new building, while the same Cabinet is singing the song of good governance. Let me remind the Cabinet that they got a mandate from this House.
Good governance means getting your priorities right and spending limited resources. We are not here to polish political egos.


Mr Minister, do what is right for this Province of KwaZulu-Natal.


I now wish to congratulate the Minister for taking a bold step in fulfilling the promise and commitment you made in this House by appointing women in top positions in the Department.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MR J S VILANE: This Department has been male-dominated for many years. I agree with you, Mr Minister, that this Department will never be the same again.


In conclusion, I wish to appeal to the Minister to put the issue of government buildings as one of the priorities, to get in touch with his national counterpart. All old government buildings that are
no longer in use, get rid of them and use the money to renovate those buildings which can still be used. Thank you.


THE SPEAKER: Thank you. The next member to deliberate is the hon member Mr Edwards for three minutes.


MR B V EDWARDS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I remarked in my speech during the budget debate that over the past few years we have witnessed a substantial change in the role and structure
of this Ministry.
                                                                                                 3876




The majority of functions performed by the Department of Works are basically at a professional level, engineers, architects, quantity surveyors and the like, and professional services done on
behalf of the Client Department Capital Works programmes.


The hon MEC, who has only been in office since the beginning of the financial year, presented a comprehensive report in September on the work of the Department for the five months of that
term of office.


Yes, the report was comprehensive in relating to activities of the Department in that period, and the hon MEC must be congratulated on the new vigour of the Department.


Regrettably there are some burning issues which I believe do not receive sufficient attention, but the hon Minister can perhaps be forgiven for concentrating on matters relating to the more
efficient operations of immediate priorities.


In his report to this House on 27 November the hon Minister focused on matters taking place since September, and where quite rightly, he was very outspoken in his concerns.


The budget of vote 14, Works which we passed in this hon House in June certainly makes little or no mention of commitments to capital expenditure referred to most critically in the report.


What is even more scandalous is that our Provincial Cabinet resolved to proceed with the accommodation in Ulundi, this amazing largesse, at a Cabinet meeting held in Ulundi on 11 June
2003. This was done before the budget for the financial year was approved by this House, after many bleeding heart speeches from certain members concerning the plight of the poor, the
jobless, the homeless, the sick, the orphans, the aged and many of our people living in altogether desperate circumstances.


The Resolution passed to approve this expenditure could not have been passed without the DA's support, and the hon leader of the DA, Mr Burrows, cannot deny that.


The hon Minister also dealt with some of the positive aspects of his Department's administration. The fact that the post of Chief Financial Officer has been filled by a black woman qualified as a
chartered accounted is applauded.


A matter not dealt with, and where great concern has been expressed in the past, not only by me, but by many very concerned members, is the very poor state of the record of fixed property
occupation and rental income received on property under control of this Province, and more particularly, the Department of Works.


Rental income or revenue from letting of property this year is budgeted at a paltry R1,38 million, as against rental actually collected in 2001 of R5,8 million.


THE SPEAKER: 30 seconds.


MR B V EDWARDS: Estimates of market-related rental income achievable range between R40 million and R100 million. Quite frankly, this is a disgraceful state of affairs.
                                                                                                3877




New brooms sweep clean, they say, and I urge the hon Minister to make a special effort with his new CFO to leave no stone unturned in order to establish proper control and if needs be,
institute a forensic investigation to make sure we collect all the revenues that we can. Thank you.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: The next member to deliberate is hon member Mr Rajbansi. You have three minutes.


MR A RAJBANSI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to also comment on the question of the House of Traditional Leaders. We support the House of Traditional Leaders. We believe they must
have a good Chamber, a very comfortable building.


My issue is not what the Cabinet decided, but that the DA is now distancing itself from that decision. If they were honest enough to support that, and a comment was made by Mr Edwards that
the Cabinet could not have taken the decision without the support of the DA. If they supported the decision, be man enough in public to say that we took a principal stand in the Cabinet. We do
not know what happened inside Cabinet, but I am sure that this matter should be sorted out.


I appeal to the hon MEC of Public Works that very strong rules should be made in respect of the powers of the governing body to lease out school buildings and property for business purposes.
This is beginning to happen. It can go out of control if nothing is done.


We have the legal advisor of the Department of Education and Culture who says that they have the power in Durban North. I indicated last week that the school had decided to let an unutilised
building for business purposes at R30 000 a month, where black children are now coming into that area, and they need schooling accommodation.


That is also in respect of all other buildings. Previously in the Public Accounts Committee we heard details of every department having housing, the rental, what rents they are charged, whether
it is market-related or special rental.


I want to compliment the Minister and the Department of Public Works for the excellent work they are doing in the field of looking at State buildings.


THE SPEAKER: A minute left.


MR A RAJBANSI: The Minister indicated previously that we have to revive certain areas. The upward mobility of the economy, the lowering of the unemployment rate is to a large extent
deeply dependent on the ability of Public Works to deliver the goods.


They say they have the means. They have given us reports of the delivery that augers well for the Province and for our economic upward mobility. Thank you, Mr Speaker.
                                                                                                3878


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: The next member is hon Mrs Downs for two minutes.


MRS J M DOWNS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I probably will not need the full two minutes. I think it is simply outrageous to spend money in a particular area for the particular use which the
Cabinet has decided on when there are buildings and facilities available. We need schools, we need things to be fixed around the Province, and we need infrastructure in other areas, such as
water, sewerage facilities and so on, in many local government areas where these are not available.


We spend a huge amount of money as a Province. I think more than ten times what other provinces have spent on the institution of Traditional Leaders. I am not saying that we should not
support it, but I think it is simply outrageous for the Cabinet to have made the decision they have made, and I really think they should back off on it. Thank you.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: Next is hon member Mr Qoma. He is not in the Chamber. Then it is the hon Mr Slabbert for two minutes.


MR J H SLABBERT: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I have only two minutes to participate in this debate, making a debate almost impossible.


The issue that I want to raise has generated much political heat but no dispassionate newcomer to the Province will come to a logical conclusion after less than a one minute briefing.


The facts are very clear, sir. The seat of the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature is now in Pietermaritzburg. The disused Legislative building in Ulundi is a perfectly good building complex that could fulfil
all the needs of the House of Traditional Leaders.


AN HON MEMBER: Absolutely!


MR J H SLABBERT: The Legislature adopted the recommendation by the Finance Committee in early 2003 that the former Chamber of KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Legislature, together with its
Hansard recording equipment, be made available for use by the House of Traditional Leaders for its meetings, including its committees.


In the budget statement for 2003/2004, there was no provision to build a new facility for the House of Traditional Leaders.


The questions that now arise are, why is the IFP hell-bent on wanting to build a new facility, when the former Legislative building is not used?


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!
                                                                                                   3879


MR J H SLABBERT: Are they suggesting that Traditional Leaders, as much as we respect them, cannot move into a second-hand building? Are they saying that the disused Legislature must
remain an empty reminder of the whole KwaZulu Bantustan built by Pretoria? What plans do the IFP have for the building?


Together with the obstinate position that the IFP have adopted on the Ulundi flats issue, they will have a lot of explaining to do to the electorate. Thank you.


THE SPEAKER: The next member to deliberate is the hon member, Mr Christians. You have four minutes.


MR A CHRISTIANS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. In the Minister's speech he states that he will put the people first, and not politics. I think this is admirable, but it is unfortunate that it is politics
first for the Minister, and not the people.


I say this because our Minister is lacking political will in carrying out his duties. While he makes grand speeches, he is not actually following through, and I say this because while the Minister is
hell-bent on not constructing this new building for the Traditional Leaders, is he actually going to make a stand and take the option on resigning if push comes to shove? Or is he going to just
say, "If that is the choice that I am given, I will take the choice, and remain in my position."


Mr Speaker, while this may be highlighted in his speech along the entire issue of the building for the Traditional Leaders, some members may be growing old in this House, and perhaps their
hearing is getting bad, or maybe they simply do not want to hear it.


The DA's position is that we support the existing structure for the Traditional Leaders, and we do not support the building of a new structure. I hope you all can hear that loud and clear!


As I said, the issue around this entire speech of the Minister dealt around the issue of the Traditional Leaders. What the Minister actually forgot to tell us about was the amount that he used for
relocating from Ulundi to Durban, and let me quote the cost for that. It cost:


                   R5,263 million for additional staff.


                   R1,9 million on new furniture.


                   A nine-year 11 month lease entered into.


                   R180 000 rental per month.


Is this good governance that the ANC is talking of? Is this actually the way Public Works is going to be operating while there are so many buildings that the State does own that we can utilise
without having to go through these unnecessary costs at the expense of our taxpayers?
                                                                                                 3880


We talk about putting the people first. Are we putting the people first when we are relocating to these lovely, luscious buildings in Durban, or are we putting our own comfort first as politicians?


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR A CHRISTIANS: Mr Speaker, I really do have to wonder about the conviction and principles that is being spoken of, that we are all supposed to be holding, while on the other hand, the DA
is criticised, left, right and centre, on its issues.


Why? Because they are missing the real issue. The real issue is good governance, and the ANC Minister is not providing that. While he says "A", he is doing "B".


I will repeat what I have said in every single speech of mine, Public Works Department needs to really look at outsourcing most of its functions.


AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!


MR A CHRISTIANS: We do not need those functions, because we have legitimate businessmen in this Province who can carry out those functions and it would not cost the taxpayer as much
as it is costing us now with this Department and with this Minister. I thank you.


THE SPEAKER: The next member to deliberate is hon member Radebe. You have five minutes to do so.


DR B M RADEBE: Somlomo. I think, Speaker, I want to start by reminding uBaba Christians and his alliance partners that I am surprised Mr Christians is criticising Mr Mabuyakhulu.


The issue of the Ulundi flats in particular, and Public Works, was headed by the IFP from 1975.


In our portfolio committee on 24 February 2003, when we were discussing the issue of Ulundi, I have minutes, Mr Christians, I will give them to you, the Head of the Department, Advocate
Radebe, asked the portfolio committee when he was sent a fax from the Speaker's office, just three lines, that he must take over Public Works.


He said he cannot take over the flats at Ulundi, unless a proper inventory is done. Stock-taking, submit the empty flats to the Department. Ngifuna ukuza kule u-Mr Christians akhuluma ngayo.
[I want to touch on what Mr Christians is referring to].


Mr Christians, I am ashamed, because the DP never governed. It has never been a government at any time, since its inception. It never ruled any part of this country, but you talk about good
governance. Have you ever governed anywhere?


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.
                                                                                             3881


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order!


DR B M RADEBE: Somlomo, engifuna ukugcina ngakho ilokhu ukuthi i-theme yeriphothi kaNgqongqoshe yayithi [Mr Speaker, I want to conclude by stating that the theme of the Minister's
report was saying] for the sake of politics or people. That was the theme of the Minister's report. Is shocking ukuthi Inkatha yeNkululeko bathi eyesizwe asazi ukuthi siphi isizwe. Uma igoloza
nokuthi abantu abahola more than R30 000 bangaphumi kumabhilidi kaHulumeni bahlale kuwona kune-staff - angazi kusafuneka kushekhwe. I was told ukuthi the Head of Department of
Education ihlala e-Holiday Inn Olundi, which is costing the Department of Education R250 000 a month. He got an office at Holiday Inn, yet OGwala they own double flats at Ulundi.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order!


DR B M RADEBE: Yes, yes, uma kukhulunywa la they are protecting because they want to use Ulundi as i-base yabo. Thathani izithembu niphumele obala musani ukuthatha abafazi besibili
niyobakipitisa nibafihle kulawamaflethi. That is another problem for IFP. Bathathe amaflethi kube indawo yokupitikela kuwona ngasese, shadani nibe nesithembu umthetho uyakuvuma lokho.


AN HON MEMBER: UKUPHAZAMISA. [INTERJECTION].


DR B M RADEBE: Wena-ke ngizosuke ngisho nokuthi ubani omkipitise laphana. [UHLEKO] Wena noMzobe ngizosho nokuthi ubani enibakipitise laphana.


HON MEMBERS: Shono. [Tell us].


DR B M RADEBE: Ngizama ukusho Sihlalo, ukuthi let us not...


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order!


DR B M RADEBE: Let us not Mr Speaker, pretend as if uNgqongqoshe uMabuyakhulu angenza lento ngalo-four months. Why uMhlonishwa u-C J Mtetwa did nothing about amaflethi
asoLundi? Why the IFP is silent about that one.


THE SPEAKER: A minute left.


DR B M RADEBE: Sengifuna ukugcina ukuthi cha Inkatha ayiphume yakhe imijondolo yokukipita, ayi ukuyokipita emaflethini kaHulumeni. Ayiphume Inkatha yazi ukuthi izophuma iyokwakha
imizi. Laphaya akungathathwa impahla kaHulumeni kuphendulwe amashibhi abantu they are paid by the Legislature yet they are running shebeen and taverns kumabhilidi kaHulumeni. I thank
you, Mr Speaker.
                                                                                                3882


TRANSLATION: It is shocking that Inkatha Freedom Party and they say of the nation, but we wonder which nation. If they object that people who earn more than R30 000 should not vacate
government buildings but should stay in them, yet there is staff - I think an investigation has to be instituted. I was told that the Head of Department of Education stays at Ulundi Holiday Inn,
which is costing the Department of Education R250 000 a month. He has an office at Holiday Inn, yet Gwala and them are owning double flats at Ulundi.


Yes, yes. When the matter is discussed here they are protecting (sic) because they want to use Ulundi as their base. Practice polygamy openly. Do not take second wives and make them
concubines by hiding them away at residential flats. That is another problem for the IFP. They have taken residential flats and turned them into infidelity havens. Get married and be
polygamous. It is legal!


Well, as for you, I am going to divulge who it is that is at your infidelity haven. [LAUGHTER] You and Mzobe. I am going to tell who the people are at your infidelity havens.


I am trying to say Mr Speaker, that let us not...


Let us not, Mr Speaker, pretend as if the Minister, Mr Mabuyakhulu can do this thing within four months. Why did the hon C J Mtetwa do nothing about residential flats at Ulundi? Why is the
IFP silent about that one.


In conclusion I say Inkatha should go out and build shacks for infidelity, not at government flats. Inkatha must know that they must go out and build homes. They must not take government
property. They are paid by the Legislature, yet they are running shebeens and taverns in government buildings. I thank you Mr Speaker. T/E


THE SPEAKER: Next to deliberate is the hon member, Mrs Gasa. You have eight minutes.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MRS F X GASA:         Kuyathanda ukuba lukhuni ukukhuluma emva komuntu onolaka, obanga umsindo, oxubanisa izinto eziningi aze angene ezintweni ezingangenanga kulenkulumo
esizoyiphatha. Ngiphatheka kabi ngempela uma kuzokhulunywa ngamakipito, nginalo iflethi Olundi angikipitile. Ngakho-ke uma sesimbozwa ngendaba yokuthi siyakipita I take exceptions on
that one. Nakhu-ke esifuna sikhumbuzane ngakho ngoba engathi this House is suffering from mental amnesia.


TRANSLATION: It is somewhat difficult to speak after an angry person, who is making a noise, confusing many things and even delving into irrelevant things. I am greatly perturbed if talk is
going to be about infidelity havens. I do have a flat at Ulundi and I am not living with someone as husband and wife. Therefore, if it is said we live as concubines I take exception to that. This is
what I want us to remind one another of, that it appears that this House is suffering from mental amnesia. T/E


HON MEMBERS: Yebo!


MRS F X GASA: Ninomkhohlwa nje nisho izinto la [You suffer from forgetfulness. You say things here and the next moment you are fighting]. The next moment you are fighting against what
                                                                                                   3883


you are saying. I want to remind you that this House and the House of Traditional Leaders wanted to use those empty buildings, which you are now talking engathi ningongcwelengcwele
nibafundisa ukuziphatha, nenqaba. [as if you are holier than thou, you taught them self-discipline and you refused].


They are lying empty because you refused. Now today you are telling a different story. The discussions about the new buildings, the Premier's Office, the Royal Household as well as Safety
and Security are controversial and the matters are very sensitive.


I would advise you to skirt around this somewhat, as the Minister's speech mentioned some of the problems that are there, but unfortunately it looks like it had a negative effect on some of the
people in this House.


If you talk about the R80 million to be spent on this project while the Legislature building stands empty, it is your problem that the Legislature building is standing empty.


I wish to remind you that this very House is treating the Royal Household like dirt. All of you want to be in posh offices. You want to have your offices well trimmed, and then when the House of
Traditional Leaders is asking for a building with offices, every department has offices hon member Mrs Downs thula ngoba uzokhala uma ngike ngaqondana nawe, uzovele ukhale nje.
[UHLEKO] Makengathi ngiyakuthatha nje lungu elihloniphekile Mrs Downs uzokhala. [keep quiet because you will cry if I take you on. You will just cry. [LAUGHTER] Once I take you on hon
member Mrs Downs, you are going to cry].


Every department has got to have offices, and that House is standing empty, one part of it is standing empty. Are you expecting them to move into another House which is not properly built?


If you are looking down on the Traditional Leaders, we hold them in high esteem, and sorry, we are not going to change our attitude.


I will also remind this very House that it does not have the powers. We have powers and functions with regard to the Executive and the Legislature. It is not this House that is going to take
decisions on institutions and buildings in our government ayobekwa kanjani. [how are they going to be put]. It depends on the Department.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MRS F X GASA: Do not tell me about money. Your party is very small and only gives us five cents. You do not have any money here.


Perhaps you could argue that this is not a matter of politics, but a matter of practicality in that the Premier's Office and Safety and Security has high priority.


I would like to thank you, Mr Minister, for the manner in which you have tabled your report. Then I would like to say shame on the members who are misreading your report for the sake of
politics.


I am glad to congratulate the joint decision between Cabinet and Public Works with regard to the housing problem. They did quite a lot. Kanti soze sibabonge nini abeKhabhinethi njengoba
                                                                                            3884


behleli lapha besebenza bebambisene. [When are we going to give thanks to Cabinet members as they sit here working co-operatively].


Public Works has worked hard, and I would like to say masingathi uma sifuna ukubukwa, sifuna ukuba oNgqongqoshe bese senza sengathithi uNgqongqoshe obekade ekhona ngaphambilini
akenzanga lutho. UBaba uMtetwa wasebenza bakwethu akusekho nokukodwa enizokucabanga okuhle akwenza. Senikhuluma sengathithi akazange enze lutho ubevele angene azilalele.
Masinganyundeli abantu, abantu bakithi laba. Uma kuyithina esizohamba phambili sihlekisa ngabo sithi ezinye izizwe zithini na?


TRANSLATION: I would like to say we should not, when wanting to get attention or becoming Ministers, pretend as if the previous Minister did not do anything. Mr Mtetwa did work, hon
members. Is there not a single good thing he did that you can remember? You now speak as if he did not do anything. He would come in here and fall asleep. Let us desist from speaking
slanderously about people. These are our people. If we are going to lead the pack that make fun of them, what are other nations going to say? T/E


Public Works is going to make an announcement on 9 December. We hope this is going to be an excellent piece of work.


We want to congratulate the Premier and the House on the new Land Administration Bill due to come into effect soon. Manje-ke Ngqongqoshe ngiyathanda mina ukuthi singalesithi uma
sixabana bese sidlalela ezitsheni ezifayo, ziyafa izitsha sibhizi thina siyaxabana. Ngiyakhuza ngimdala ngithi oNgqongqoshe bethu asizame ukubasaphotha nanganoma iyiphi indlela,
singabheki ukuthi baphuma kuliphi iqembu. Uma beyosebenza under very heavy and trying circumstances.


AN HON MEMBER: UKUPHAZAMISA. [INTERJECTION].


MRS F X GASA:        Isingisi sani?   Nginaso njalo isingisi angizufundiswa uwena mntanami, ngasiphasa iSingisi ngoba ngisithanda.       Ngaphasa mina ngiyasikhuluma ngisho neSingisi.
SinoNgqongqoshe bethu okufanele sibathande ngoba laboNgqongqoshe njengoba behlezi lapha nje ePhalamende bashiye amakhaya abo, amakhosikazi nezingane zabo. Kodwa thina lapha
sibenza inhlekisa, masingahlekisi ngabo. Nabo banamaphutha njengabantu bonke. Thina ekufanele sikwenze ukuthi sibathande lapho sibona khona bephambuka, thina silekelele ngemibona
engaba usizo. Ngiyabonga.


TRANSLATION: Now Mr Minister, I wish to state that whenever we get involved in a tiff, we tend to handle things haphazardly, which should not be the case. Things do go awry if we are busy
quarrelling. I am remonstrating with our people as an older person. We must try to support our Ministers in whichever way we can, regardless of their political affiliation. They are working
under very heavy and trying circumstances.


What English? I can speak English. I am not going to be taught by you child. I passed English because I like it. I passed so I do speak English. We have our Ministers whom we have to love
because as they are sitting here in Parliament they have left their homes and wives and their children. But we make them a laughing stock. We must not ridicule them. They too make
mistakes, like everybody else. What we must do is to love them. Where we feel they are going astray, we should assist by making constructive suggestions. Thank you. T/E


Nou sê ek weer dit is tyd dat ons hulle nou regtig moet ondersteun. Hulle moet nou regtig ondersteun word. Hierdie ou, hy is 'n kleinseun. Nou praat en praat julle, hy is my seun, hy is my
kleinseun. [LAUGHTER] Always thina kwa-IFP we pride ourselves by talking about issues on hand. Uma nicabanga ukuthi siyophuma emaflethini lalani ngenxeba. Uma nicabanga ukuthi
                                                                                                  3885


asizukuwakha lamabhilidi lalani ngenxeba. Siyakwenza konke ngoba siyazi ukuthi - uthi phela uNgqogqoshe wethu.


TRANSLATION: Always we the IFP pride ourselves by talking about issues on hand. If you think we are going to vacate the flats just forget it. If you think we are not going to erect these
buildings, just forget it. We do everything because we know that you said that is our Minister. T/E


For the sake of the politics or our people. The IFP are saying for the sake of our people. Thank you.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: The next member to reply to the debate for five minutes is the hon Minister Mabuyakhulu.


MR M MABUYAKHULU: (Minister of Public Works): Thank you, Mr Speaker. Let me first and foremost congratulate each and every member that has participated in this debate. Indeed,
with a few exceptions, all of you have risen to the occasion by debating in a very mature manner, and therefore this House has reason to be proud that we have members of your calibre sitting
in this Chamber, representing the public at large.


As a result of this I will not reply to each and every member, but I will respond to one or two issues. The issue raised by the hon Mr Edwards with regard to the fixed assets register, the reason
why it was not covered in our report is not because good work was not done. We have already asked for tenders and advertised the software part for the fixed assets register.


We are now preparing for the second part of the assets register that is to actually place a tender specification, and that will actually get people who can populate the assets register. So, work is
being done in that regard, and I can assure all members that indeed we are actually making that one of our first priorities in the Department.


With regard to the issue of rental and the collection of rental, in my report I indicated that we are putting together the housing policy, particularly with regard to the staff housing policy. I am glad
that this housing policy is currently before Cabinet, and that we are finding unanimity in Cabinet on that matter.


It will then provide us with measures in order for us to collect rent and assure that each and every department is responsible for the collection of rent in terms of staff who are allocated those
houses. We are dealing with that matter.


With regard to the issue raised by the hon Rajbansi around the question of leasing school sites, the Land Administration Act gives us the authority to precisely do that, and we are embarking on
a process to begin doing that. I think this piece of Legislation will allow us to be able to deal with those matters and exercise our options with regard to that.


As I said, I will not respond to each and every member. I want to respond to the hon Christians. I think youth gives one a chance that you are able to be bright and look ahead and know that
the country belongs to you. You have a longer life span than older people.
                                                                                                   3886


I think the hon member is speaking from the depths of his ignorance, but I forgive him for that. He is young, a novice, an upcoming politician, and whatever he has said he can be forgiven for,
because he spoke from the depths of his ignorance.


This very hon member, when I made a report to the portfolio committee and this House in September, he actually was saying he is supporting what we are doing in a positive manner. Today he
is singing a different tune. I like you as my brother, and I think I can work with you in order to nurture your skills to become a good politician.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MR M MABUYAKHULU: (Minister of Public Works): When it comes to the issue of the relocation of head office from Ulundi to Durban, we have made our position clear. We have said
already that we must get the skills that we require. It is not about a political issue.


AN HON MEMBER: It is.


MR M MABUYAKHULU: (Minister of Public Works): It is an issue about actually getting the best skills that you can attract in the labour market. That is the point I made in September. If you
therefore want to ring your own Christmas bells, you can do so. It will not help you.


I want to congratulate the hon Mrs Gasa for her mature participation in this debate.


THE SPEAKER: Thirty seconds.


MR M MABUYAKHULU: (Minister of Public Works): Save to say, hon member, I think all of us must actually take a calm approach when we deal with matters like the Bills. We must
exercise our choices, not because we are driven by a political party. We must be very circumspect. The need is there, and you can accommodate that need without necessarily building the
structure. That is what my report says. That need is realised and we can do it the other way round. But I want to congratulate you for having debated so well. Thank you very much.


THE SPEAKER: Then we move to item 8.2, the report by the hon Minister of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs, hon Minister Makhaye.


8.2       REPORT: THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS IN TERMS OF RULE 10(2)


MR D H MAKHAYE: (Minister of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs): Mr Speaker, let me crave your indulgence and officially table this report. It has been distributed Mr Speaker.


When I assumed the responsibility of this portfolio, the first thing I did was to immediately reconsider our vision. I mentioned in this House that among our cherished goals is to see the people of
our Province having food security, where resourceful (commercial) farmers and resource-poor (emerging) farmers complimented each other and live healthy and prosperous lives.
                                                                                                 3887


In our policy speech in April we clearly stated our objectives. We said, among other things, our goal is to conserve the environment and establish new sustainable projects that will be
commercially operated, so that our people can live healthy lives and suffer no food shortages.


We also maintained that we wanted to ensure that there was quality food on the table of every KwaZulu-Natal family. This House will agree with me that these objectives are at the core of
pushing back the frontiers of poverty and fighting HIV/AIDS through healthy nutrition.


We are happy to report to this House today that in a short space of time we have made major and notable strides in fulfilling our mandates, although at times visited by hurdles and problems, we
remain steadfast in our resolve to unlock the full agricultural potential of KwaZulu-Natal.


In line with our vision as articulated in our policy speech, we have developed and prioritised certain programmes in order to breathe life into these objectives. Among these priority programmes
is the Mechanisation Programme, Formation of Livestock Associations and Rehabilitation of Dip Tanks, Transformation of the Department, Fighting Corruption as well as Control of Invasive
Alien plants.


AMASAMGO EZULU AVULEKILE, PHEZU KOMKHONO!


Mr Speaker, a new era is dawning for emerging black farmers of our Province. Major steps are being taken faster by the Department to bring previously excluded farmers into the mainstream
agricultural economy. To this effect my Department has developed a mechanisation programme funded to the tune of R3 million, which will assist farmers from now until April 2004.


This programme will bring, for the first time, benefits of modern farming methods to previously disadvantaged farmers. Through this programme emerging farmers will be able to purchase
tractors, and associated farming implements at huge discount prices for their farming ventures.


A policy and process flow was developed by my Department. R3 million was rolled over from 2002/2003 to 2003/2004 to initiate the programme and funds were budgeted for within the MTEF to
proceed with the programme over the next three years. (R4 million, R5 million and R2,94 million for 2004/2005, 2005/2006 and 2006/2007 respectively).


Negotiations with suppliers have resulted in huge discounts, as much as 33,4%, on new tractors and equipment. The programme aims at supplying tractors and equipment to District Farmers'
Unions or Farmers' Associations. Draft funding agreements have been sent to the Land Bank and Ithala Bank. Their responses are now urgently awaited and promising whereafter the project
will commence.


We are doing this in order to unlock agricultural potential and to drive economic growth among communities. KwaZulu-Natal is said to have an under-utilised agricultural potential estimated to
be in the region of 366%. This potential has been scientifically determined and it exists in areas where most of our previously excluded farmers live.


Revitalising the Livestock Industry/Capacitating the Livestock Association
                                                                                                  3888


Mr Speaker, our challenge remains to ensure that agriculture plays a central role in building a strong economy and in the process contributes to reducing inequalities by increasing incomes
through employment and marketing opportunities for the historically disadvantaged people.


It is this reasoning, hon members, that has prompted us to revitalise livestock operations and develop them into trading operations. We want our people to have healthy livestock so that they
are able to sell them and generate income. Statistics reveal that the Province has an estimated herd of over 3 million cattle.


Revitalisation of livestock operations is in full swing. Already 154 dip tanks to the value of R9 million have been rehabilitated and the livestock associations servicing these dip tanks have been
capacitated. An amount of R2,1 million will be spent during the rest of the financial year on this project. Within the MTEF, R8 million, R12 million and R15 million have been provided for. Most
of these herds of livestock are found in the poorest areas.


Soil Fertilisation Programme


As reported in May 2003, large areas of KwaZulu-Natal have high potential, but the high rainfall has over time resulted in an increase in soil acidity. It is envisaged that maize production in such
areas will be increased from 2,5 tons per hectare to 5 tons per hectare should the soil acidity be reduced by applying lime.


This will not only increase the viability of such farming operations, but also increase food security and reduce poverty. We are initiating the lime programme in our MTEF planning which I hope
this House will pass when we vote for the main budget at the beginning of the new financial year.


My Department has already started this year in a pilot area, Bergville and Loskop. This pilot involves 98 farmers on 142,5 hectares to the value of R713 000. The programme will be rolled out
over the next three years.


My Department has made provision in the MTEF of R4,5 million, R5 million and R6 million for the next three financial years respectively. This is not sufficient, and as reported, around R48
million is needed over the same period.


My Department will endeavour to find such funds, as this is really a programme that can not only increase the production over one year, but will do so gradually over the years. We
conservatively estimate that for every Rand spent on this project it will quadruple in less than five years, thus indicating that indeed we are unlocking the agricultural potential in this Province.


Agricultural Development Trust


A Corporate Business Plan was developed according to National Treasury Guidelines. This Corporate Business Plan will now be forwarded to National Treasury for their consideration. If
approved, the Trust will be gazetted in March 2004.


The Trust will be able to operate as a public entity as soon as a letter stating that it will be gazetted is received from National Treasury.
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Flanders/KZN Agricultural and Environmental Projects


The KwaZulu-Natal Department of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs has a very good relationship with the Flanders Government and especially the Flanders Department of Agriculture and
Environmental Affairs. Numerous joint projects have been proposed in 2002, and we are pleased to report that these projects are now approved in this financial year.


These projects are:


                  Agricultural Information Centres.


                  Traditional Food Promotion Projects.


                  Quantification and Optimisation of Land Use Patterns.


                  Capacity Building of Farmers on the Makhathini Irrigation Scheme.


The total amount for these projects from Flanders is R764 200 and they are to be completed over a three-year period.


Unfortunately, a delay was experienced. Funds from Flanders were only received by this Department as late as 8 September 2003. All the projects have, however, commenced, and the project
teams are endeavouring to speed up implementation to bring the projects on schedule. We are positive that the projects will be back on schedule by 31 March 2004.


It needs to be mentioned that my Department has formalised yet another project which was forwarded for consideration by Flanders in June 2003. This project is called "Sustainable Natural
Resource Management", which seeks to unlock and sustain the potential of the natural resources of KwaZulu-Natal through the following integrated projects:


                  Soil fertility management.
                  Planting without ploughing.
                  Promotion of organic farming practices.
                  Control of invasive alien weeds.
                  Livestock and grazing management.
                  Training of emergent farmers.
                  Agricultural infrastructure and land care.


Although not approved to date, the indications are that this proposal will be approved soon to a total amount of R9,3 million. The project is to be completed over a four-year period.
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At present, my Department has yet again identified new projects within the theme of sustainable natural resource management to be funded in 2004. Flanders has indicated that our proposals,
which amount to R7,3 million, will be supported by their government for consideration in 2004. Again it needs to be mentioned that if approved, these projects will be implemented over a three
to four year period.


I must stress that this is a partnership, benefiting KwaZulu-Natal and my Department and that provision has been made within the Medium Term Expenditure Framework to match Flanders'
funds for the implementation. I want to express my sincere appreciation to the Flanders Government for the positive contribution they are making to build a better quality of life for the people of
this Province, present and future generations.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MR D H MAKHAYE: (Minister of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs):


Land Reform/New Settlement


To settle land claims is a function of the Land Claims Commissioner in the Department of Land Affairs. Apart from the fruitful meetings that I have had with Minister Didiza and on which I
reported in my budget speech, a meeting as recently as 11 November 2003, took place between my Department, the Department of Land Affairs and the Land Claims Commissioner, as well as
the Land Bank.


At this meeting a permanent forum was established to address all land related issues in the future. My Department is taking a lead in this regard. This will streamline and co-ordinate the
functions of these institutions to strengthen the land reform process in this Province. Obviously this enables us to know who the beneficiaries of the land reform process are, and thus enabling
us to mobilise the required farmer support to these new land owners. This seamless process seeks to ensure that emergent farmers do not fail in their farming enterprise.


Agri-Industry, (Ntingwe Tea and Coastal Cashews)


Coastal Cashews will soon be sold by the Ithala Bank and the Industrial Development Corporation to the Manguzi Cashew Nut Farmers Association effectively on 8 December 2003. The
project will be an economically viable business for the new owners.


The Department of Science and Technology, through the CSIR, is to invest R2 million in the development of a cashew-apple processing business, which will produce a vitamin C rich juice as
well as jam, and possibly jam and glazed fruit.


The Department or its nominee will invest R40 million over the present and the next three financial years in Ntingwe Tea. This will be done on behalf of communities by purchasing a tradeable
interest to the value of R40 million in Ntingwe Tea.
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A due diligence for the project was done, and heads of agreement has been negotiated and drawn up, and is presently being considered by both parties. An amount of R12,2 million has been
budgeted for in this financial year, and an amount of R3,8 million has been rolled over for this purpose from 2002/2003. This brings the total of R16 million for 2003/2004.


It is the intention of the Department to finalise the transaction before 31 December 2003.


Mentorship Programme


A policy has been developed for the Mentorship Programme with organised agriculture. My Department has approached Provincial Treasury for authority to include R600 000 into transfer
payments to kickstart this project this financial year. Over the next three financial years the programme will gain impetus, and the amounts of R2 million, R5 million and R5 million have been
provided for within the MTEF for mentorship and farmer support programmes.


Eradication of Noxious Alien Weeds


Our Province continues to be a drawcard for foreign tourists who come in numbers to visit our parks and experience the beautiful scenery offered by our nature reserves and the landscape, but
the alien invasive plants are threatening this potential, and our biological diversity rendered at risk.


As reported in May 2003 this year, my Department has declared war on these weeds and we estimate that we need in excess of R80 million to deal with this problem effectively. This amount of
money is not available in my Department's budget, but we have re-prioritised to make R36,8 million available from within the MTEF allocation over the next three financial years.


Provincial Treasury has been approached for additional funding for this project, and has positively responded by making R15 million available over three years, starting in 2003/2004.


So far we have spent an amount of R1,7 million on the eradication of alien weeds at Cedara, Owen Sithole College and Platt Estates. This provided employment for and skills development
opportunities for 272 workers. Further to this, an amount of R1,3 million will be used to commence with a pilot project in Ingwavuma and Sisonke areas along the same lines as the "Working for
Water" programme to ensure maximum job creation.


This programme is urgently needed in the Province as invaders are already causing problems in nearly a million hectares of the Province and is increasing constantly. If there is nothing done
about it, the potential of the Province will be seriously compromised. The project will be labour intensive, and thus supply a useful source of income over the medium term to the communities
involved, thus contributing to the provincial priority to reduce poverty.


Good Governance


Ezemvelo KZN Wildlife
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I have met with all the divisions of the Ezemvelo KZN Wildlife. Members will understand that the failure of this organisation to submit audited financial statements, resulting in auditors not
expressing an opinion on their financial status, is an embarrassment to all of us. There will be no holy cows.


I now have taken it upon myself to take urgent steps to try and address this problem. Amongst other measures an ad hoc committee, comprising the accounting officer of the Department, Head
of Treasury and the CEO of KZN Wildlife, are now working on a definite programme to remedy the situation. This will avoid a future occurrence of this breach of PFMA.


We have generally agreed with the Ezemvelo KZN Wildlife to ensure representation within especially the senior level management of the organisation, ring in strategies to deal with the financial
crisis the organisation finds itself in, stick to our core business, which is to conserve bio-diversity and eliminate all functions that are not our core business and that divert scarce resources away
from our core functions. Within a short space of time I shall have interfaced with each and every member of this organisation. I want to speak to them directly and I shall speak to them directly.


Strategic Planning


The Department has already started to engage in a strategic planning exercise and substantial progress has been made. Part of this strategy is to refocus both the resources of the Department
and the human capital. Major shifts in the budget have already taken place to focus on core issues such as those that I have pointed out elsewhere in my speech.


Similarly, careful analysis of the staff component is being reviewed in order to ensure that, first and foremost, it is aligned to the newly defined functions whilst at the same time abolishing
unnecessary posts. As I speak, my Department, led by the Head of Department, is finalising this strategic planning exercise in Durban today. This will culminate in a revitalised, reshaped and
focused Department to its core mandate.


Representation


The House will remember that I expressed concern over especially gender and disabled representation in the Department. Since my appointment I placed a moratorium on appointments until
the appointment of the new Head of Department on 1 September 2003. I can report that since September 2003 to date, 17 appointments have been made, 94% of which are black people and
60% are females.


The Department presently has 41 reported disabled employees in its establishment of which 29 are African and 12 are white. The records reflect that there have been no disabled employees
appointed since 31 March 2003. This may, in all likelihood, not be a true reflection as many disabled people are not willing to indicate on their Z83 or in departmental surveys that they are
disabled.


It is therefore difficult for the Department to maintain accurate statistics. It also poses an ethical dilemma as to whether a person may be recorded as disabled, especially when there is an
obvious disability, but where they do not view themselves as disabled and would, in fact, strongly object to being recorded as such. The broad target is to have 2,5% disabled people by the end
of 2005.
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The three paragraphs that I am going to read are not reflected in your documents, but we will ensure that you get this page.


I have met with various sections of the Department, including all members of staff at head office and the five regions. We have agreed that we must stick to our core function, and cut down on
unnecessary facts which have got nothing to do with our core function.


I also met, on several occasions, with all trade union representatives operating in the Department. These meetings were at my instance. I regard trade unions not as enemies, but as partners.


AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!


MR D H MAKHAYE: (Minister of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs): We have agreed with managers that I will create a conducive climate for the unions to work within the Department.
The unions have undertaken to encourage their members to work diligently so that together we deliver a quality service to our people.


I have also met with various farming unions, such as NAFU and KWANALU. We have been to various communities, such as Ebhokwe and Vryheid and Emfithini in Ngwavuma, Utrecht,
Newcastle, Ezwelibomvu eMbumbulu, Edumbe, Enhlazuka, eMsinga, Kings Farm near Vryheid, Enkonjeni, KwaDukuza, KwaMashu, Phoenix, Entombokazi under Inkosi uBiyela,
KwaVulamehlo KwaVulindlela, eQadini, KwaKhoza and many more areas.


We are taking the Department to our people. We are producing a monthly tabloid in Zulu, called Isigijimi, which we insert in both Isolezwe and Ilanga. We have a ten minute slot every Sunday
at 8:30 am on Radio Ukhozi. Very soon we will be on Radio P4. Indeed, Amasango ezulu avulekile, Phezu komkhono.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MR D H MAKHAYE: (Minister of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs):


Corruption and Fraud


My Department is committed to clean government and we want to ensure that each and every Rand does what it is earmarked for. Our crime busting initiative under the code name "Operation
CROP" has rooted out a number of alleged corrupt practices involving departmental officials and some unscrupulous suppliers. So far 45 suspects have been arrested. 19 of them are officials
from the Department and the rest from the private sector.


We have since suspended these officials with full pay, and we are speeding up internal disciplinary procedures in order to bring this matter to finality.


The suspects appeared in court on 25 November, and the case was remanded until February next year. To this effect we thank the co-operation from the Internal Audit Unit of the Treasury, the
                                                                                                       3894


Provincial Prosecuting Authority and the South African Police Service.


We are of the view that nipping corruption in the bud is necessary if the Department is to achieve its objectives. That is why we have decided to continue with "Operation Crop", and more
arrests are imminent.


The majority of my staff are hard working and honest people, and I want to thank them, as well as members of the community out there and the honest suppliers in exposing the few elements
who are corrupt.


CASH FLOWS


Madam Speaker, I have decided to include a table outlining the unaudited cash flows for the first two quarters of the financial year, versus actual expenditure for the same period for the
Department of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs. This you can read at your own leisure.


The following table has been inserted by Hansard from the written speech of the Minister.




                                               Cash flow       Actual Exp.      Variance     % Spent

                                                  R'000           R'000           R'000


 Programme Name


 1. Administration                                  46,057           34,543        11,514       75%


 2. Agricultural Development Services             192,168           167,453        24,715      87,1%


 3. Veterinary & Environmental                      48,292           42,750         5,542      88,5%

   Services


 4. Auxiliary & Assoc. Services                   105,352           105,670         ( 318)    100,3%


   Thefts & Losses


 Total Programmes:                                391,869           350,416        41,453      89,4%




 Standard Items
                                                                                                      3895



                                              Cash flow      Actual Exp.      Variance      % Spent

                                                R'000           R'000          R'000


 Personnel                                       167,169          150,076       17,103        89,8%


 Administrative Expenditure                       27,537           30,229       (2,692)      109,8%


 Stores                                           16,398           14,298           2,100     87,2%


 Equipment                                        15,064            7,940           7,124     52,7%


 Land & Buildings                                 18,333            5,472       12,861        29,8%


 Professional & Special                           36,918           33,022           3,896     89,4%

 Services


 Transfer Payments                               110,240          109,244            996      99,1%


 Miscellaneous                                       200              135             65


 Total Standard Items                            391,869          350,416       41,453        89,4%




 Economic Classification


 Current Expenditure                             355,812          337,416       18,396        94,8%


 Capital Expenditure                              36,057           13,000       23,057        36,1%


 Total Economic                                  391,869          350,416       41,453        89,4%

 Classification



Table 1: Second Quarter Budget Performance : Agriculture & Environmental Affairs.



CONCLUSION


The essence of what I have reported is that the apparent savings are mainly because of non-operational issues, which have all been re-prioritised according to the priorities of the Province and
such funds will be spent by the end of the financial year.
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Madam Speaker, the Green Revolution is not just a pipe dream. We have the potential, we have dedicated staff, we have dedicated partners, we have willing, able and eager people wishing to
farm, and thus we shall make our vision of a Green Revolution a reality.


Amasango Ezulu Avulekile, Phezu Komkhono.


I thank you.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


8.3      DEBATE: REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF HEALTH IN TERMS OF RULE 10(4)


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr Minister. I now call upon the first speaker to deliberate on Health, Mrs B S Mohlaka, who has eight minutes.


MRS B S MOHLAKA: Ngiyabonga Mama Somlomo. [Thank you Madam Speaker]. I would like to thank the Minister of Health, Dr Z Mkhize, for his report on Health, particularly on hospital
mortuaries.


I will, however, expand in my debate and talk about the nurse intake. The estimation on hospital mortuaries is acceptable. However, there are still many challenges that are facing
administration and mortuaries.


Madam Speaker, the availability of mortuary assistants in mortuaries and in hospitals cannot be over-emphasised. However, mortuary attendants need to have an implementable policy. They
need in-service training courses organised for them, because handling of corpses is very different from handling carcasses.


It does happen that the mortuary attendants are so used to handling corpses, so much so that they drag them on the floor. Babahudule uzwe ikhanda lendoda lithi gqi phansi ngoba ingasezwa.
[They then drag them and you would hear a man's heart thudding on the floor because he cannot feel anything].


Bullet 2, under "Corrective Measures", states that the reviewing of existing policies and procedures for the management of the deceased from the wards to mortuary, and maintenance of proper
records has been stated. We are grateful for that, but I must just say that it is long overdue.


Mr Speaker, the delay in the payment for pauper burials to burial companies compounds a big problem as these companies have preferences and priorities of collecting corpses whose lives
had been insured, and whose surviving spouses and relatives are well-off, or can afford it.


Ngakho-ke Baba Somlomo, kuba indaba elukhuni leyo yenza izidumbu zilaliswe phezu kwezinye. [Therefore Mr Speaker, that is pathetic and it leads to bodies being stacked one on top of
                                                                                               3897


another].


The Department must swallow its pride and should consult with the funeral parlours, such as Doves and AVBOB, whose administration on this aspect is excellent. Ngelinye ilanga nje Baba
Somlomo, ekufundeni kwethu besiyaye sithathwe sike siyobona izindawo ezinjengako-Doves, AVBOB ubone ukuthi izidumbu ziphathwa kanjani. Lokho kwenzelwe ukuthi sithi uma siphindela
ezibhedlela zethu sibone ukuthi isimo siyenzeka yini ukuthi sibengcono kunakuqala.


TRANSLATION: One day Mr Speaker, in the course of the training, we would be taken on guided tours to places such as Doves and AVBOB Funeral Parlours to see how bodies are handled.
That was done in order for us to see if there is any improvement at our hospitals. T/E


Sometimes, Mr Speaker, there are electricity failures, particularly after heavy thunderstorms. This lasts for hours, and in most cases there are no generators in our rural hospitals, except maybe
to cater for the operating theatre. The exudate and other secretions that have a lot of infections, which were actually responsible for the patient dying, are spread all over, and the handlers of
those bodies also follow. Basheshe bafe nabo. [They also die quicker].


The bodies decompose at a rapid pace. Okusho ukuthi nje Baba Somlomo kuyaceleka ukuthi zonke izibhedlela wonke amakhaza (mortuaries) akubonakale phela ukuthi akhona ama-
generators ukuze kungenzeki umonakalo. [It means Mr Speaker the earnest request is that all hospitals and mortuaries have generators to avoid any damage that might occur].


Mr Speaker, the mortuaries engizishilo mina o-Doves, no-AVBOB, [I referred to are Doves and AVBOB] are old in the field. Let the Department consult with them. The use of paint, for
instance, in the mortuaries should be avoided.


Upende uhlala ngelinye ilanga ubuye uxebuke ubuye ube nezinto zawo njengoba sengike ngachaza ukuthi uma like lacisha i-fridge licishiswa ukuthi kade liduma izulu kuthathe mhlawumbe
usuku. Ngelinye ilanga kwacisha u-Eskom kwenzakala umonakalo oyisimangaliso. Ekhaya uwuwena uke uthi noma kade uzidlalela i-stockfella sakho i-fridge lakho lichichima izozonke izinto
ezimnandi, ilotshi, izicilotshi, uma kuke kwancibilika intwanyana ethize kuyonakala ukudla.


How much more ezidumbini ezisuke zibekwe lapho konakala kakhulu. These mortuaries engizibizile safica ukuthi they use something else, okuyodinga ngelinye ilanga njengalabo Mr Perumal
okuthiwa babekiwe ukuthi bameneje lapho kebabe expose kebavakashele lama-mortuaries babone ukuthi bona benza kanjani.


TRANSLATION: Paint sometimes peels off. As I have explained at one time the fridge went off due to a power failure resulting from lightning. It takes perhaps a day. One day Eskom had a
power failure and there was extensive damage. Even at home if you have been a member of a savings club (stokvel) and your fridge is full to the seams with all the niceties you can think of, if
something melts, food goes bad.


How much more do the bodies kept there - they go extremely bad. These mortuaries I mentioned we found that they used something else, which Mr Perumal who was placed to manage these
institutions should be exposed to and visit these mortuaries for him to see how they do things. T/E
                                                                                                 3898


The hon Minister Dr Z Mkhize did say that as a result of the many deaths resulting from HIV/AIDS storage and collection of corpses has become a problem.


Some time ago formalin was used when dealing with corpses. Our hon Minister Dr Mkhize and Dr Green-Thompson the DDG used to use formalin when dealing with cadavers. Bayakhumbula
babephuma amajazi abo enuka kanjalo. [They remember they would come out with their dustcoats smelling like that].


Mr Speaker, siyacela ukuthi i-form [we request that the form] of training that is given to the people who deal with the corpses ikakhulukazi oma-odalisi laphana, namanesi in the wards ibe
proper. [especially the orderlies there and nurses in the wards, be proper].


I have asked in my previous debate why the last offices are not properly done. Ama-last offices hon members uma nginganichazela ukuthi yini umuntu uma eseshonile uyacimeziswa, omuntu
avalwe umlomo. Ngizoqhubeka. [The last offices hon members. If I can explain to you that when a person is dead both eyes and the mouth are closed. I will proceed].


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: The next member is the hon member Miss Tambo for five minutes.


MISS V TAMBO: Mr Speaker and hon members of this House, I fully support the midterm review report by the hon MEC on Health, particularly on the adjustment estimates for the Department
of Health, and the anti-retroviral therapy for HIV positive patients.


Albeit indications were made in the March budget speech by the hon MEC on Health, that the Department is facing increasing demands on the Health Services without a commensurate
increase in budget allocation and the indication of the pressure being placed on the existing services as a result of the HIV/AIDS epidemic in our Province which appears to be the hardest hit in
our country.


This detailed report explains a number of Health departmental aspects to look into. To point out a few: the human resources community health centres and district hospitals.


I really commend the Minister for the statistics which he highlighted in his report with regard to human resources, particularly when compared to the work load since 1997/1998. This gives
direction on what is actually taking place and provides a picture of the departmental staff.


This is also indicated in the statistics received from the institutions as reflected in this report with clear targets and estimates. Let alone that there are specific community health centres that so
far have not been fully commissioned and patients are still referred to district hospitals. What comforts us is to find that difficult as it may be, the matter is being corrected and is receiving
attention.


When we look at the district, regional and TB hospitals, there is always an indication of an increase in or exceeding of targets due to the effects of HIV/AIDS on patients, for example, those with
TB. This is thrashed out in the report on PMTCT and anti-retroviral therapy for HIV positive patients.
                                                                                                 3899




This report also provides us with some preventative measures, and the way in which the Department can consolidate such measures is by having nurses training colleges, and the fact that they
are doubled when it comes to the target versus intake.


This again is anchored by the fact that there are bursaries put in place of which the target is 670, and that alone gives us hope with regard the recruitment of scarce professional health care
workers.


The projects that are in place to improve the health facilities are commended and it is also noted that in this very same Department the pace at which the completion of some projects are done
is slow, and the reason is also supplied that this is due to the long procedural system to be followed.


With regard to the other achievements, I am grateful to find that the Department is really not working on an island, but is co-operating with other departments, for example the primary school
nutrition scheme. In this regard it co-operates with the Department of Education and the identification of major improvements of service delivery and infrastructure, is well appreciated.


THE SPEAKER: 30 seconds left.


MISS V TAMBO: The report on its own is very detailed, and deserves to be applauded. Living without a disease called jealousy, like myself, to prove that the report is not afraid to provide this
House with the budget shortfalls so that we are able to note where to put more strength or tighten the knot. I thank you.


THE SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. The next member to deliberate is hon member Mrs Ambler-Moore. You have five minutes to do so.


MRS M AMBLER-MOORE: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to re-iterate the hon Thusi's motion this morning, and thank the hon Minister for his address at the Premier's HIV/AIDS Indaba. It
was very interesting. It was fascinating as was your summing up, Mr Minister. It was a positive talk and an inspired action that is happening in the Department.


It was also very interesting and quite an eye-opener for me to see the graph of how the expenditure, the allocation of funds over the year has increased for the fight against HIV/AIDS.


I must also congratulate the Department, because obviously it is in a state of readiness to roll out ART, that is a new word: Anti-retroviral Treatment, and I believe we are a step ahead of the rest
of the country.


I just want to add a word about schools feeding. I am not sure if this was covered in your report, Mr Minister, but it definitely came up at the conference. I think everyone on our Health
Committee has been concerned that the Health Department is relinquishing school feeding to the Department of Education and Culture. No disrespect to the Department, but it has been a
cause for concern.


I was heartened at the Indaba to hear the hon Minister Singh comment on the commitment of the Department, not only to make school feeding work, but to extend it.
                                                                                                3900




Mr Speaker, it is the end of the year. We are all tired. In fact, some people are so tired they have not come today. I just want to talk on two totally new subjects, and that is what is nice about
our Health Committee, there is always a new subject to talk about.


South Africa has recently observed diabetes week, and I just want to raise a few questions around this condition. I was witnessing one of our hon members doing their diabetic test earlier.


First, a few facts, and quite astonishing ones. It is estimated that approximately 3 million South Africans suffer from type II diabetes, which is a lifestyle disease. In other words, man-made. In
fact, this problem is worldwide. At the International Diabetes Federation held in Paris in October this year, it was revealed that diabetes worldwide has increased from 50 million in 1985 to 417
million this year. The Federation decided to declare diabetes a worldwide catastrophe.


Type II diabetes develops through incorrect eating and lack of exercise. South Africa is on its way to overtaking America as the world's fattest nation. A recent study by the Medical Research
Council found that almost half of South Africans over the age of 15 are overweight or obese. It is affecting children as young as ten years old.


I am sure we all know that diabetics are more prone to heart attacks, strokes, kidney failure, blindness and amputations.


Because diabetes is a non-notifiable disease, no-one knows how much it is actually costing the country, because when a person is admitted to hospital for something like an amputation, or any
other condition caused by diabetes, it is not recorded as a symptom of diabetes. My colleague, the Deputy Health spokesperson for Health, the hon Mike Waters, in Cape Town, has suggested
to the National Minister of Health recently in his speech that we make it a notifiable disease. I look forward to comment from the Minister, and what he thinks about that.


Mr Speaker, South Africa also has the highest amputation figures in the world. I find that quite scary. The estimated cost of an amputation is R120 000, and very often the State has to bear
that cost.


I have checked, this Province does provide diabetics with the little sticks, or whatever they are called, for testing. They cost the Province something like R100, but in other parts of South Africa
they are not provided, and the State is not paying for that. Yet they will pay the R120 000 for an amputation.


I ask the question, Mr Speaker, are we, as a nation and a Province, doing enough to try to prevent this disease?


THE SPEAKER: One minute left.


MRS M AMBLER-MOORE: Looking around this House, we see how close to home this problem is. Also, no disrespect. Are we in this House, and I include myself, as being overweight and
lacking in exercise, setting a good example of our lifestyles and what is being served in our dining rooms? Are we in fact actually trying to, as a Legislature, set a good example, lead a healthy
lifestyle, and so try and prevent this very preventable disease type II diabetes? Thank you.
                                                                                                3901


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: The next member to deliberate is the hon member Mr Edwards. You have five minutes to do so.


MR B V EDWARDS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The hon MEC for Health, Dr Mkhize, must be commended on his concise and well-directed midterm review. In particular dealing with the
adjustment estimates reflecting the ever-increasing pressures put on the vote through the HIV/AIDS pandemic.


It is regrettable to learn that our fears of possible over-expenditure were correct, and that as a consequence the Department has had no option but to curtail some services, and possibly even
more regrettable, to slow down the programme to increase the access to health services in the rural and under-served areas, setting back plans to reach equity in our Province.


It is frightening that our Province is found to have the highest prevalence of HIV/AIDS in South Africa and second highest in sub-Saharan Africa.


As the hon Minister stated, our hospitals are under enormous pressure, with the average length of stay increasing dramatically. At Greys Hospital, for instance, increasing from four days five
years ago, to now close to seven. The cost per patient per day is running at R1 300.


At the same time, the staffing establishment is static and the workload on doctors and nurses has increased dramatically. Certainly they must be commended on their outstanding commitment.


Of course, there are always exceptions, and additional pressure has been created by lucrative positions overseas being offered and taken up by many of our professional nurses and medical
staff.


Many of these do return, but it is essential that the position of salary being fixed for those doing so at entry level and not commensurate with experience, must be resolved to attract professional
nurses back into the public health care system. This is still a problem, and perhaps the hon Minister can give us an update on the position.


The hon Minister's report highlights the marked effect HIV/AIDS is having on the Health Budget, particularly admissions at district hospitals and tuberculosis hospitals.


The prevalence of HIV positive patients in adult medical wards and paediatric wards now reported to be in excess of 60% in most hospitals is horrifying, to say the least.


The Province of KwaZulu-Natal must be congratulated and in particular the MEC for Health and the hon Premier for the pro-active role played in combatting this terrible scourge. This while
others were dallying, and we are ahead of other provinces. We are pleased with that.


At national level the government must be commended for its acceptance of the operational plan for comprehensive HIV and AIDS care and treatment announced on 19 November.


The New National Party welcomes this decision. It is a major turning point in the fight against AIDS. It is also a key building block in the comprehensive response to HIV/AIDS.
                                                                                                3902




South Africa now commences an important new phase in the fight against AIDS. Prevention, however, we must be reminded, remains a key pillar to the challenge. This is perhaps where we
have fallen down in our programme.


There has been much debate over the use of anti-retroviral therapy. The effective use of ART, as we know, is a scientific and financial challenge, but is not a cure. It is not prevention.


The NNP believes that it is now vital for all roleplayers, led by government, to join in a common effort to beat AIDS.


The time of bickering and political point-scoring, DA-style, [LAUGHTER] on the life and death issue of HIV and AIDS must now be put behind us and be replaced by a common resolve to be
supportive and constructive.


In reducing the projected over-expenditure from R346 million to R269 million, the hon Minister and Department are showing that in fiscal terms they have a resolve to act quickly and
responsibly, and responsibly we must act. We cannot spend money we do not have.


We need to be reminded that when addressing this year's Health Budget it was clear that following the over-expenditure last year of some R326 million, the allocation for 2003/2004 was
estimated to be underfunded to the tune of R347 million.


THE SPEAKER: A minute left.


MR B V EDWARDS: We knew before we started this year that we will probably overspend. Cost-cutting measures were put into place from the beginning of the year, and many have been
painful. The greatest fear is that curtailment of expenditure could lead to an unacceptable compromise of services delivered.


Critical areas highlighted by the hon Minister were: staff shortages and the severe pressure placed on those having to bear an increased burden, reduction of access to facilities, and even more
critical, delays in ambulance response times and deterioration of emergency services.


We just cannot afford to compromise emergency services when lives are at stake. Our public hospitals have, in the past two years I believe, started to regain their reputation in producing quality
health care, but we need to go further.


We have enormous demands, from Welfare in particular, creating unacceptable demands on our limited resources. The hon Minister for Finance has addressed this vexing phenomenon, and
Cabinet must find ways of addressing the greedy appetite of the welfare pup before other social services pups starve to death.


THE SPEAKER: The hon member's time is up. The next member to deliberate is the hon member Mrs S Rajbansi for five minutes.
                                                                                                3903


MRS S THAKUR-RAJBANSI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Hon members, in response to the hon Minister of Health's report, I can only say that this is a very honest report of the predicament that
this vital Department is in financially.


I have received various complaints in the past few months on the deterioration of services at our local clinics and hospitals. The hon Minister's report therefore puts this now into perspective.


The problems of medicine shortages, the very long queues at our various clinics are high, the closure of the clinics is a common complaint, and of course, the ill-functioning crisis centres is
another cry.


At this juncture I would want to appeal to the hon Minister to review how the certificate of need is being implemented in KwaZulu-Natal especially to health care facilities that could assist in
primary health care.


Our chronic patients, especially the elderly, are hard-hit, and they have to go to various clinics and hospitals to receive their medication in dribs and drabs. This burdens them financially,
because most of them are grantees.


Hon members, I fully empathise with the Department and I do wish to make the following positive comments. Firstly, the Department needs to re-motivate their health personnel and they do
need to invest in human capital.


Qualifying doctors, pharmacists and nurses need to understand their calling, be patriotic to our country and our government needs to be hard on them and tie them down with service level
agreements, because you have to remember that our taxpayers in this country do need to get their money's worth.


With respect to global funding, my only comment about this is that this funding will be successfully used if we can control our cross-border patients.


With respect to the Albert Luthuli Central Hospital, I want to bring to the attention of the hon members that this institution is supposed to be the pride and joy of South Africa, let alone KwaZulu-
Natal. We have to be very realistic, in that there are very real problems at this hospital, and one of them happens to be with regard to the top management.


Our Department and our National Government needs to assist the central hospital in order for it to operate as a private hospital on pure business principles. Therefore we should employ the
best people, even if we have to head hunt these people.


I am glad that the National Minister has signed an agreement with Britain so that we can have free movement of health care professionals between the two countries.


Hon Minister, the one-stop crisis centres set up are not optimally functioning in the Province, and this Department needs to intervene, because the only route that I feel we have to take is to go
the PPP route. I am saying this because the one-stop crisis centres have to get into an agreement with the various hospices and the Natal Blood Bank, etcetera. Then only will they be able to
function optimally and remain cost effective.
                                                                                                   3904




The MF welcomes the move to hand over the nutrition section to Education. I myself put a motion to this effect a few months ago. The MF welcomes this because we know that in this
Department the nutrition programme will work well.


The Minority Front has always said that we must change from the ABC campaign to the KAB campaign with regard to HIV/AIDS. I say this because we know that the ABC campaign has not
worked.


THE SPEAKER: A minute left.


MRS S THAKUR-RAJBANSI: It has received a lot of criticism, and we spent a lot of money on it. I can assure you that if we go the KAB route, we have to bring about awareness by
knowledge. That knowledge will change attitude. That attitude will change behaviour, and that will be the socio-economic saviour of this Province with this disease.


The Minority Front thanks the hon MEC for such a candid report. We want to assure this Department that the Minority Front will always stand by them. We know their dedication and
commitment to giving and delivering good health care in this Province. Thank you.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: The next member to deliberate is hon member Mrs Downs. You have three minutes to do so.


MRS J M DOWNS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to speak today about my friend called Happiness. Happiness died about two years ago. She was one of the first people that I know to
publicly disclose her status in a rural area that was deeply prejudiced against HIV/AIDS. We walked a long road with Happiness. I have never seen a braver woman. She had nothing going for
her. She had no job. She had been thrown out of her community. She was forced to do sexual favours in order to supplement her income, and yet, this woman stood up against huge amounts
of prejudice, disclosed her status and spoke about how HIV/AIDS affected her life.


She was also a teacher to many people, including the church to which I belong, because it was the first time that they took responsibility for someone who was positive, and nursed her until her
death.


The sad thing is, Mr Speaker, that Happiness could have been alive today if she had been given anti-retroviral therapy. The problem is that Happiness left behind two small children. This is
where the giving of anti-retroviral therapy really hits home. I have never heard anyone speak of this aspect of anti-retroviral therapy.


We know that it prolongs life. We also know that HIV/AIDS has left us with a huge socio-economic problem and the problem of many healthy children orphaned because of the effect of AIDS on
their family. Yet, anti-retroviral therapy can prolong life for as much as ten to 15 years, which will enable parents to bring up their children to maturity.
                                                                                                      3905


THE SPEAKER: A minute left.


MRS J M DOWNS: My plea is this, Mr Speaker, for the sake of Happiness and her children who are now in care, that we roll out anti-retroviral therapy to every area as soon as possible, that
we do not just do a few pilot sites, that we make it available in every hospital, every clinic, every area of KwaZulu-Natal.


I know that it is not a cure, but it can help with the people that need it in order for them to keep their families intact. I plead with the Health Department to make every priority swing towards the
rolling out of anti-retroviral therapy. I know it is there in policy, but we need to do it quickly.


For Happiness and her two children it is too late, and there are many people in the next week that it will be too late for. That is all I want to say on this matter, Mr Speaker. Thank you.


THE SPEAKER: The next member to deliberate is the hon member Mr Qoma. He is not in the Chamber. The next one is hon member Mr Slabbert for three minutes.


MR J H SLABBERT: Mr Speaker, thank you very much. I feel on top of the world today. I feel very happy and very healthy, and I will save you some time and not take up the rest of my
speaking time. Thank you. [LAUGHTER]


THE SPEAKER: Congratulations, hon member. The next member to deliberate is the hon member Mrs Ambler-Moore. You have three minutes.


MRS M AMBLER-MOORE: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I said that I had two points that I wanted to raise which were not in the Minister's report. The second is the fact that some of our hospitals
are not computerised. I stand corrected, but I do not think, for example, Edendale is. I raise this because it has led me to question the efficiency of our system.


Very often people go from one hospital to another in search of treatment or miracle cures. I ask the question, is there any way the hospitals could be linked so that for example if I go to
Edendale and am not happy, and I go to Northdale or Greys, they will pick up immediately that I was at Edendale on 20 November.


Obviously, care would have to be taken to keep any illness that I may have confidential through a coded system. I would imagine Dr X could contact Dr Y to establish what diagnostic treatment
had been done and what medication had been given.


I am sure, Mr Speaker, thousands of Rands could be saved if we had a more efficient system. I do not know how feasible it could be. Would it be possible to link all hospitals in this Province,
particularly those in urban areas.


Can I ask the Minister whether this has ever been investigated? Has a costing been done? I think it would be very expensive, but maybe in the long run it would lead to savings.


I just want to end off, Mr Speaker, I am not sure what we do about this. We very often get complaints about the treatment that HIV positive patients are getting in hospitals. It is very hard to just
generalise, because obviously, it is not happening everywhere.
                                                                                                   3906




When you try to get people to give you an affidavit to say please, could you give me an instance, I need a day, time, the hospital, where it happened so that I can refer it to the Department and
take it up, and they say, no, they are afraid of victimisation and do not want to be identified.


I really believe we need to look into our hospitals, how HIV positive patients are being treated, and particularly those that have full blown AIDS and for all intents and purposes come into hospital
to die.


I know a lot of the nurses are not kind to them. They just believe they are going to die anyway and they should just go home. They are more of a nuisance than anything else. They are not
being nursed and fed properly. I am not to sure how me must go about it, but perhaps, as a committee, it is an issue that we need to look at. I thank you, Mr Speaker.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. The next member to deliberate is hon member Mrs Johnson. You have 12 minutes.


MRS L JOHNSON: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would like to thank the hon Dr Z L Mkhize, MEC for Health, for a comprehensive factual midterm report which was tabled in this hon House.


The report indicates that the Department of Health has achieved the targets it set for itself.


Mr Speaker, I would like to highlight some areas of concern as indicated in the report. Pressure is being placed on the existing service. I am sure all of us are quite aware of that. That is due to
the HIV/AIDS epidemic in our Province leading to overcrowding in our institutions. We see more patients in the wards who are quite ill. They stay longer, and as a result, they eat more into the
budget, thus impacting negatively on the budget.


The other issue is that of the shortage of personnel. Of concern also is an increasing shortage of skilled and experienced personnel. You are quite aware that those who are left behind are
expected to carry the burden and are overworked. This leads to burnout. These are the situations that our institutions are faced with.


I would also like to touch briefly on the shortfall in the budget. The Department had instituted corrective measures to reduce the projected over-expenditure from R346 million to R269 million in
the first two quarters.


Mr Speaker, the Department finds itself in a catch 22 situation. The Department is expected to do more with less resources. As I was listening to the hon Mrs Downs, she was suggesting that
the Department must simply roll out the ART on a full scale, and not just at selected pilot sites. I think we all would love that, but the reality is that the resources do not match the need.


Unless we can give the Department all the money it needs, I have no doubt in my mind that they will do precisely what is expected from them. It is important for us, as members of this House,
that we have an understanding of what the Department is faced with. Even the measures that they are taking, I do not think they are happy with it, but they are forced by circumstances to
                                                                                                3907


contain the budget which is unfortunately shrinking. Hence we need to support the Department.


As we go out to our constituencies, let us be honest and explain the situation as we know it as members of this House, and not create false expectations, and blame the Department and the
Minister who leads the Department that they are failing to 1, 2 and 3 and yet we know the truth ourselves. Let us not lay blame unnecessarily.


Mr Speaker, I would also like to touch on HIV/AIDS. I think it is important for us to be honest, to rise above party politics, and to be objective. The Department of Health, under the leadership of
hon Dr Mkhize, is doing well.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MRS L JOHNSON: There are illustrations of how they are dealing with the issue of HIV/AIDS. It is unfortunate that deliberately the perception has been created out there that nothing is being
done. We now hear of the issue of war against HIV/AIDS. To me, the war has long begun.


What we need to do is to intensify that war. Let more soldiers have resources. We cannot behave as if there was never war against that scourge. The war is there, and the Department is
doing everything possible, with limited resources, to face and deal with this scourge.


To illustrate, if you look at the PMTCT programme, this Province does quite well compared with other provinces. We are well ahead. There is wide coverage with regard to the PMTCT
programme within this Province.


I think that lays a foundation for the roll out of the ART. Again, it has given us an opportunity to learn from that programme that will be used when we start a new programme of rolling out the
ART.


Mr Speaker, during the Premier's HIV/AIDS Indaba an announcement was made which says that section 21 companies will be set up through the Premier's Office to deal with HIV/AIDS issues.


What came to my mind was the big question, and I would still like the Minister to say something if he is willing to, why are we setting up a new structure? We have got in place a Provincial AIDS
Council which constitutes even the civil society members who contribute and give advice on this issue.


What will happen to the structure if we now create another parallel structure? Are we not duplicating? Are we not wasting money? In particular, if you look at our budget and the difficulties that
we are faced with, is it the right thing to do?


I think those questions need to be answered so that we understand clearly. Do we have to go the route of duplicating and wasting money? I would like the Minister to reflect and explain to us
how he sees that. Is that really what we need at this point in time? What we need is to strengthen the existing structures, and not to create new ones.
                                                                                                3908


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MRS L JOHNSON: We cannot. We have no luxury to do that. We need to strengthen and intensify what we have in place.


In conclusion, Mr Speaker, I take this opportunity to sincerely thank the staff in the Department of Health who are working very hard under trying and difficult circumstances, where they have to
carry this burden.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: Order, hon member Mr Cele.


MRS L JOHNSON: We feel that they do not deserve us complaining about what they are doing. We are not condoning any ill-treatment of patients, but we need to tell them what support
measures we will provide to them in order to boost their morale as they continue in taking care of our people who are very ill.


If you remember, last month we had a prayer day, praying and wishing our staff, in all our institutions, that we can help and assist them, to encourage them to continue with their work under
those difficult conditions.


I want to wish them and their families a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, and I would like to say to the Minister, we are proud of you.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MRS L JOHNSON: We know you. You are a hands-on Minister. Mabizasabele, sithi Khabazela, carry on. Ungatatazeli. [Respond immediately, we say Khabazela, carry on. Do not act
hurriedly].


Even if we come and say you are not doing well, people outside know what you are doing.


AN HON MEMBER: Nabo bayazi. [They too, know]!


MRS L JOHNSON: Bayazi. Re leboha di-Ministere tsa rona tse re ratang, tseo re di ratang. Diministere tsa rona tswelang pele ka mosebetsi wa lona. Morena a be le lona. [They know. We
thank our Minister that we love. Our Ministers carry on with your work. God be with you].


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.
                                                                                             3909


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! Hon member, Mr Mthimkhulu! The next member to deliberate is the hon member Mrs Mohlaka. You have eight minutes to do so.


MRS B S MOHLAKA: Baba Somlomo, angiphinde ngithokoze. Ngicela ukuvikelwa kuleNdlu, kuye kube buhlungu kakhulu umangabe umuntu esimbiza ngokuthi umholi wabesifazane kwi-
Legislature kube uyena oshaya into ephansi. [Mr Speaker, I once again thank you. I ask for protection in this House. It is very disheartening to see a person we refer to as the leader of the
women in the Legislature, under-performing].


AN HON MEMBER: INTERJECTION.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! Mrs Nkonyeni!


MRS B S MOHLAKA: Nango-ke mtshele. Baba Somlomo, ngigcine ngikhulume ngikhuluma ngama-last offices [There she is. Tell her. Mr Speaker, I last spoke about last offices] and then I
explained what that was. I also explained that last offices should be conducted before rigor mortis sets in. Then, also to unpack that concept. Rigor mortis is when the body stiffens. Umuntu
uma esewomile ungeke usakwazi ukumenza lutho bengithi angichaze nje. [When a person is dead there is nothing you can do to him after rigor mortis has set in. I was just giving an
explanation].


Mr Speaker, bullet 2, under "Corrective Measures" states that the reviewing of existing policies and procedures for the management of the deceased from the wards to the mortuary, and
maintenance of proper records should be carried out. Siyavuma sengathi bangakwenza lokho [We agree and wish they do that because it is always easier said than done].


Mr Speaker, one reads in the newspapers where catheters and nasal tubes remain in situ, remain in position in the deceased, and the relatives become very scared. However, uMhlonishwa
uke waxolisa kuleyondawo. [However, the hon Minister apologised for that].


Then we also have this delay of corpses that are never collected, because their identities are not known. The non-collection of these corpses before was to the advantage of the medical
schools. I am not sure now. These corpses would then be termed cadavers and then these bodies would be taken to the medical school for teaching purposes.


Otherwise the bodies were buried by the government. The latter practice was applied before the advent of tendering. Baba Somlomo, it is encouraging that the Department is taking corrective
measures. Heading mortuary services is a big job and a challenge. Mr Perumal, who for instance has been identified by the hospital management at Northdale hospital should be empowered
on this aspect because the routine is going to be different.


Although the Minister's speech, bullet 1 under "Corrective Measures" frequently emphasises that they are going to have this implemented and corrected, I would urge that the evaluation should
take place. Sengiyadlula kulesosihloko. [I am now moving on from that topic].


Mr Speaker, we are very excited about the double intake of nurses. Kuze kwathiwa lapha kwi-conference [It was even said in the conference] nurses are dying at a high rate because of the
exposure to HIV/AIDS. The manner in which this virus is spread is not only through heterosexual intercourse, but also as a result of the handling of patients whose diagnosis is not known, and
                                                                                                   3910


blood and other stuff. Our nurses are exposed to that.


We are therefore excited about the double intake of nurses. However, the allocation of R36 million for 2002/2003 wangibuka uMhlonishwa, [the hon Minister looks at me] to cater for the double
intake was appreciated at the time. Kukhona into ebuhlungu kabi esiyenzeka uyabona [There is a very painful thing that is happening]. If planning is not done simultaneously with other
processes kuyaye kuthande ukuhlupha. [it sometimes causes problems].


At that time we all wanted it and are happy this has taken place. Then there is another problem that has arisen namely, accommodation. Labantwana babantu basuka baye for training [These
poor people go for training] and when they get to the hospital there is not sufficient accommodation. Now they are forced to obtain accommodation outside.


Bahlale inoma ikuphi babe-exposed [Stay anywhere and be exposed] to all types of evils. As a result there is a very high rate of pregnancy kuma students which are still in training sesisabela
ukuthi bazothi befika bengakafundi nakahle bese behlangana nengculazi ivakasha. [among students which are still in training and we fear that upon their arrival and even before effective
learning takes place, they contract the AIDS virus].


I know that in clinics, for instance, the Department's policy is that when a clinic is being built, nurses quarters are provided. That is why the staff is not exposed to the evil practices outside.


Sekukhona nokudlwengula manje okudida ikhanda. Baba Somlomo, neNdlu yakho ehloniphekileyo siyacela ukuthi uMhlonishwa umangabe ecela imali bazame ukuthi akhelwe amanesi, abe
nayo indawo yokuhlala kuma nurses home. Babone ukuthi benza kanjani ngoba leyonto iyasihlupha kakhulu ngoba into ebesiyivakashele izolo i-HIV/AIDS Indaba ibi-emphasise kakhulu nge-
prevention.


TRANSLATION: There is also an alarming rate of rapes. Mr Speaker and your hon House, we ask that when the hon Minister asks for funds he should consider building for nurses, for them to
have accommodation at nurses homes. They will see how they do it because that worries us a lot since yesterday we were attending an HIV/AIDS Indaba which strongly emphasised
prevention. T/E


When these young nurses are exposed to such practices outside kuzoba ukuthela amanzi emhlane wedada. [will be a fruitless exercise].


Mr Speaker, hospitals are faced with the problem of ordering vehicles. There is a delay in the delivery of vehicles. This precipitates in the delay of the delivery of medicine and other items.
Njengama-gloves ufice onesi sebetapa umuntu izandla zize [For instance gloves. You will find nurses touching a person with bare hands] because there is not enough stock. This has
happened, and is happening. Siyacela ukuthi Baba Somlomo, ke ibhekisiswe leyondaba ukuthi i-procedure [We ask Mr Speaker that this matter be looked into as to the procedure] for ordering
of vehicles ike ibhekisiswe [be looked into] to expedite this matter.


Thina Baba Somlomo, angisho ukuthi uma sikhuluma kwesinye isikhathi [Mr Speaker, let me state that when we speak sometimes] you can always tell from the socialising of a person ukuthi
lomuntu unjani. [how he is].
                                                                                                 3911


We are not here to criticise, but to advise our Minister without being rude.


THE SPEAKER: The hon member's time is up.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MRS B S MOHLAKA: Ubona nge-socialising yomuntu ukuthi uqhamukaphi. [You detect one's origin by his socialising].


THE SPEAKER: The next member to deliberate is the hon Minister to reply to the debate. You have 15 minutes to do so. Hon Minister?


DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to thank all the members for the very interesting debate. I will not reply to everything that the members have raised, but
I will touch on some of the issues.


Firstly, I appreciate all the comments that the hon member Mrs Mohlaka raised. I want to touch on the issue of the deceased. We will train the mortuary attendants. I am not too sure about
whether we need to take them to those private undertaker organisations.


However, there are serious problems with those bodies which are not related to the issues raised. The concern that I have with those bodies is that it puts the burden of expense on the
relatives of the people who have died. What happens is that if they discover subsequently that it was somebody who had AIDS or had an HIV-related disease, then they actually disclaim them.
Then the relatives have to pay back whatever has been paid to them. That is one issue of concern.


In relation to the care of the deceased, I agree that a number of things that have happened are not acceptable. The issue of the decomposition of bodies, we have to look into that. We do not
have a report. The question of people handling the bodies with disrespect and so on, we will deal with that if we can get some specifics.


The issues that you have raised are of concern. The issue of formalin, you realise, is for long-term preservation of bodies. It is not for bodies that are going to be buried soon. It does not apply
in this particular case. It is more a laboratory kind of situation.


With regard to the issue of nurses. We have a high rate of HIV amongst health workers, as was indicated, but there is no evidence to show that it is as a result of occupational exposure. I think
we must be careful about that, because it might put us into all sorts of trouble.


We are looking into the issue of accommodation, and where we can provide, we will. Insofar as how the nurses behave and if they fall pregnant we are not in a position to police them. We will
train them so that they understand how to take care of themselves and avoid infection. It is not possible to police them. If they do get into such trouble we really cannot be responsible for that.


The hon member Miss Tambo, thank you for your comments on the issue of human resources. It is a serious challenge in the Department. The issue of capital works, we will try our best, but if
                                                                                                    3912


we run short of money, we will have to slow down.


The issue of the training of nurses is a matter of serious concern, and as Mrs Mohlaka has indicated, we have actually doubled the intake, and we will try and increase as much as we can. We
need to fill the gaps of those we have lost.


Mrs Ambler-Moore, thank you for your comments. The feeding scheme which is going to Education is a challenge for both Health and Education. We believe it is a challenging task, but
nevertheless we will offer our best support.


I enjoyed your lecture on diabetes, and I do not want to add anything new to that. It is not quite possible to make diabetes a notifiable disease. It is not infectious. It is something that develops
because of a particular lifestyle. The only thing we can recommend in this Legislature is that we can get a dietician one of these days and to attend the caucuses to teach them about dietary
habits. [LAUGHTER]


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health): Then we can talk about exercises. What I would really like to recommend to the Executive Board and the Speaker is to create a gym, so that during the
session we can attend the gym in 30 minute cycles. We will have a healthier life and a healthier Legislature, and it will be calmer, there will not be a lot of fighting in the House. [LAUGHTER]


The issue of computerisation, Mrs Ambler-Moore, it is too expensive. That would be the ideal, and we would really love that. We have started in some of the hospitals, but it cannot be
everywhere, so we will deal with it.


We will also be looking at how to strengthen the training of our staff in terms of the care of HIV positive patients, so that we do not run into problems.


Mr Edwards, I am very grateful for your comments. We have also indicated the pressure on the health services because of HIV/AIDS. I would not like to repeat that. Also, the question of the
loss of staff and the issue of staff who wish to return and cannot be accommodated due to the civil service regulations.


These are the things we are working on, but we will discuss it with the committee. It will take too much of my time to talk about that.


I just want to make a point that the issue of anti-retrovirals is actually just a pillar. It is not the end of the fight. It is the beginning. Once we have one of the pillars of fighting HIV/AIDS, being the
anti-retroviral drug, then the fight starts. We must know that all of us are a part of that programme. I agree we must not bring politics into the fight against HIV/AIDS, because we will lose the
fight. No-one will win.


Over-expenditure is an issue, but what will actually happen, once we start with anti-retrovirals, it will be very difficult to send the patients out and say, go away, we do not have anti-retroviral
drugs. So the over-expenditure, if we do not have proper budgetary provisions, we will run into serious difficulties.
                                                                                                    3913




Mrs Thakur-Rajbansi, I want more clarity on the issue of the certificate of need, because it is not quite applicable in this case. We also want to discuss your views about the Albert Luthuli
Hospital. It should be able to operate as a private hospital, in terms of taking in patients, and charge them as private patients. If you can just give us more details of the problems you are talking
about in the crisis centres, we will deal with that.


Insofar as HIV/AIDS is concerned, the study that was done of late shows that there is sufficient knowledge. Our biggest challenge is change of behaviour, and this is the problem across the
board. We need a lot of assistance in this particular case.


Mrs Jo-Ann Downs referred to her friend who has passed away, Happiness, and it is a tragic story indeed. Many of us can count friends, colleagues, relatives and children who have died as a
result of HIV/AIDS. Let us not dwell on the past. Let us focus on those that we can still help and move forward. At the end of the day, even if we had started earlier on, the challenge is still the
same. We still need to deal with it.


We need volunteers to go out and help the people. We need to make sure that even the members here are part of the force that must be fighting this disease, and you are not on the sides.


Mr Slabbert, thank you for knowing that you are very healthy, and thank you for the support. I have made my recommendations about the general lifestyles of the members of this House, and I
am keen to take it forward. They want to recommend that you become the first member of the gym. I will join you. [LAUGHTER]


Mrs Lydia Johnson, the issue of rural skills. We actually have an amount of R40 million to help as an incentive to attract and keep doctors and nurses in the rural areas. We hope that from now
on that will make a difference.


You are correct about the issue of anti-retrovirals. The budget for the anti-retroviral roll out is huge. It is not only the medication that we are talking about. It is the staff, laboratories, the nurses,
doctors, counsellors, the community health workers and so on.


I will take the Health Portfolio Committee through the whole plan. We have presented it to Cabinet. Just to give you a sense of the coming year, in order to roll out anti-retrovirals, we will need
over a billion Rand just to deal with that programme if we were to apply it properly and in the ideal way. That is what we will need.


It is a real challenge. We are looking at a number of other areas. The Global Fund is coming. We hope it is going to be able to assist. We have heard that President Bush from the US has
offered a certain amount of funding and we believe that this might also be able to assist us in the process so that we can augment some of the funding shortages that we have.


We acknowledge also that the programme of the prevention of mother to child transmission did lay a foundation for this particular programme. It would have been more difficult without it. It is
still difficult, but it is better. We have learnt a lot of lessons.


We all need to gauge our public statements, which do not always relate the practical implementation difficulties that we have in getting these programmes off the ground. It is still quite a
                                                                                               3914


challenge to continue with any programme.


Regarding the issue of the section 21 company that the Premier announced, I think we need to get a better understanding of how the Premier envisages that this structure will operate. I heard
at the time, it was announced at the conference, so I am not in a position to provide any further information on what the differences are going to be in the areas of emphasis. I think we need
time to clear that.


We need to make sure that we do not have a situation where there is duplication or overlapping of structures. Every structure must be effective and not do what other structures are already
doing. We will have time to discuss that.


I also announced during our closing meeting that we will be engaging a Treatment Action Campaign and the group which is called the AIDS Network Consortium. We will be meeting with them.
That is a group of about 40 to 50 non-governmental organisations.


They have offered, and we have accepted their offer, to work with the Department, particularly with regard to the issue of treatment literacy, on the question of patient motivation and compliance
motivation and I believe this is the kind of support we need to be able to take the fight forward, otherwise, Re le bohaa mme Johnson. [Thank you hon member Johnson]. [LAUGHTER]


I would like to extend my appreciation to the Head of Department and the staff in the Department of Health for all their welcome support. I also want to express my appreciation to the Portfolio
Committee on Health, as well as the members of this House and my Cabinet colleagues.


To all of you, I wish you everything of the best during the festive season, and may you have a good rest, and God look after you. Make sure that we can all meet next year healthy, so that we
can continue the work that we have elected to perform.


Mr Speaker, I want to also thank you very much for your time. I will save you a minute. Thank you.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: Thank you. We are now supposed to adjourn for lunch. Before we do that, I would like to correct a mistake that I made on 27 November 2003 in respect of the KwaZulu-Natal
Adjustment Appropriation Bill 2003/2004
which was tabled before this House on that date.


Being a Money Bill the procedures as set out in Rule 181 to 184, Standing Rules of KwaZulu-Natal Parliament, the following must be followed.


In terms of Rule 181(1) of the Standing Rules, I must on that day of the Money Bill refer the introductory speech by the Minister of Finance and any other supporting documents to the portfolio
committee concerned for deliberation.
                                                                                                    3915




The provisions of Rule 181(1) have not been complied with, that is, the Bill was not referred to the Finance Portfolio Committee on the day it was introduced.


Rule 5 of the Standing Rules will now have to be evoked in order to suspend Rule 181(1) to enable the Speaker to refer the Bill to the Finance Portfolio Committee out of time.


In terms of Rule 5(1) of the Standing Rules, a provision of these Rules may be suspended or amended by Resolution of the House of not less than two-thirds of the members present in this
Chamber.


In terms of Rule 5(3) of a motion under sub-Rule (1), it may be moved without notice.


In terms of Rule 5(2), the suspension of a provision of the Rule is valid until the end of that sitting day.


I therefore, colleagues, wish that before today's sitting to advise the House accordingly, and seek permission from the House to adopt the Resolution to suspend the provisions of Rule 181(1) to
enable me to refer the KwaZulu-Natal Adjustment Appropriation Bill 2003/2004 to the Finance Portfolio Committee out of time.


I therefore wish to hear from parties whether they support that. ANC?


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Yes, we will support that, Mr Speaker.


THE SPEAKER: IFP?


INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Chief Whip): We definitely will support that.


THE SPEAKER: DA?


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): We would support it, Mr Speaker.


THE SPEAKER: NNP?


MR B V EDWARDS: We support it.


THE SPEAKER: MF?
                                                                                              3916


MRS S THAKUR-RAJBANSI: We support, Mr Speaker.


THE SPEAKER: PDP?


MR J H SLABBERT: Support, Mr Speaker.


THE SPEAKER: So therefore we have received the two-thirds that is required in terms of the Rules. I therefore, colleagues, formally refer the Bill to the Finance Portfolio Committee, and
advise the Finance Portfolio Committee to report to the House tomorrow, 5 December 2003. Thank you, colleagues.


Therefore we will adjourn the House and be back at 13:45. House adjourns for lunch.


           THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE SUSPENDED AT 12:46
                              RESUMED AT 13:53


8.4      DEBATE: REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND CULTURE IN TERMS OF RULE 10(4)


THE SPEAKER: We then move to item 8.4, debate on the report from Education and Culture. To start the debate I will call upon the hon member Prof Ndabandaba for ten minutes.


PROF L B G NDABANDABA: Mr Speaker and members of this hon House, I congratulate the hon Minister for his systematic and comprehensive report. The Minister referred, inter alia, to the
first six months of the financial year, and added information pertaining to October and November.


The gist of the Minister's report centred around service delivery and cash flow which have become not only mundane, but also perennial concerns in Education in this Province.


We applaud the Department for its corrective measures and the fact that key targets have been met.


The hon Minister stated that one of the main aspects of dealing with financial weaknesses is motivating staff. From the ANC, we agree. The question, however, is: How does one motivate staff
that are pecuniarily embarrassed. I say so because a substantial number of educators have either not been paid, or have not been paid on time.


It is also doubtful that educators who embarked on action for a number of days at Truro House were motivated, or are now being motivated.


By the same token, I doubt whether the temporary educators who have not been paid in schools like Thornwood Secondary School in Pinetown are now motivated. Also permanently appointed
educators, on 30 May 2003, have to this date not been paid, for example, at Mzomusha Primary School in Pinetown.
                                                                                                  3917


A case in point, which worries us also, is the case of educator C M Mchunu, Persal number 62138936 at Ubombo Circuit at Ntshingwayo Secondary School.


Also permanently appointed educators at Ekuthuleni Combined School have not been paid their salaries for their university degrees and diplomas. Is this motivating to staff? Also, substitute
educators at Ekuthuleni, Mzomusha and other schools have not been paid.


We are aware that there are many irregularities in the payment of teachers at Embokodweni Primary School in Umbumbulu. The question therefore is, how motivating is the fact that educators
who qualify for medical boarding have not been successful in their applications? A case in point is Miss Ngcobo of Ekuthuleni Combined School.


Mr Speaker, I submit that educators are demotivated.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


PROF L B G NDABANDABA: Equally demotivating on the part of staff is the fact that the Department has dragged its feet in sending promotional circulars to schools.


The HRM circular 84/2003, for example, reached only a few schools, while the majority of schools, including schools in the Durban Metro, have not received the circular.


The allegations also that office-based promotions are given to friends and members of the IFP is disturbing. To illustrate, the appointment of the Ilembe District Director was announced by the
Premier three weeks before interviews on 20 October 2003.


There are also allegations that the RSM of eThekwini instructed the section dealing with school renovations to obtain quotations worth R10 million from 13 companies linked to a certain political
party.


Finally, the deadlock on the staffing of schools, i.e. the PPN 2004, is equally demotivating to staff.


Sengivala Somlomo, neNdlu yakho lezinto engizibalile zifakazelwa amaphepha.               Ngomhlaka 2 kuyo lenyanga ephezulu kunendaba egcwele ikhasi lonke kwelinye iphepha elidumile
lesiFundazwe lithi leliphepha:


         Eminye imindeni izihlobo zayo ezashona zisebenza ngaphansi koMnyango weZemfundo izophinda ibhekane noKhisimusi omnyama kulonyaka njengoba isalinde ukufezwa
         kwezithembiso zokuthola izimfanelo zamalungelo ayo angasekho emhlabeni.


TRANSLATION: In conclusion Mr Speaker and your House, the things I have mentioned are borne out by newspapers. On the 2nd of this month, there is a story in the front page of one of the
prominent provincial newspapers, which runs thus:
                                                                                                 3918


         Other families whose relatives died whilst in the employ of the Department of Education, will again have a black Christmas this year, as they still await fulfilment of promises of getting
         the deceased's benefits. T/E


In conclusion, having given the points that worry us from this side of the House, I want to congratulate the Minister on his forward-looking report.


I wish all educators and learners a peaceful festive season. I thank you.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: The next member to deliberate is the hon member Prof Khubisa. You have six minutes to do so.


PROF M N KHUBISA: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Let me begin by complimenting the Minister for a report that focuses on the specifics with regard to service delivery.


THE SPEAKER: Sorry, hon member, kukhona ilungu elikhohlwe ukuvala i-cellphone yalo. [Sorry hon member, there is a member who forgot to switch off the cellphone]. I would like to remind
members that all cellphones must be switched off, and also our visitors must switch off their cellulars. Thank you. You may continue, hon member.


PROF M N KHUBISA: Mr Speaker, before I delve into my speech, I think it is appropriate at this juncture that I remind this House that when we debate any report, we debate it in accordance
with the strategic plan of the Department.


It is easy for you to come with an informative debate if you have been a member of the portfolio committee and you are at home as to what is happening within the portfolio committee.


For instance, some of the issues that were raised by the hon senior professor are the issues that have already been covered by members of the Department in the portfolio committee.


Now, if the hon professor had attended meetings, he would be aware at this juncture that the whole issue of the non-payment of teachers has been attended to by the Department and a step by
step breakdown of issues has been given as to what is happening. I am just saying that the Department is doing something about these issues, because a person who is in the portfolio
committee will understand that this is happening.


Then, secondly, I want also to say, Mr Minister, we want to congratulate you for giving a report which is not only qualitative, but also quantitative. You provided us with the specifics. We do
know that the greatest chunk of the budget is taken by personnel expenditure. Your Department, Mr Minister, has made notable and praiseworthy strides towards reducing teacher-learner
ratios in secondary schools.


Mr Minister, it will be a good thing if the teacher-learner ratio is attended to as early as possible in primary schools as well, because at primary schools is where we dictate the product that we
are going to get at the end of the school term.
                                                                                              3919




The Department of Education is really a working Department. There is teamwork in this Department. At our portfolio committee all levels of officials come to present. We do not miss them.
From senior to other levels we do not miss reports or responsible answers.


Mr Minister, we want to compliment you and your CEO and Department for the efforts and strides that you have taken to promptly attend to educator payment, as I have said, and the step by
step information that you have given to ensure this is attended to.


Thank you, Mr Minister, for working with the private-public partnerships in organisations, with the Divine Life Society and other organisations in particular, in an attempt to try and build
classrooms.


I know that at Mtubatuba, you delivered a speech in which you said it would not gratify you if in nine years time we would have built so many number of classrooms. You are attending to that as
speedily as possible.


I know that there are quite a few schools that have acquired assistance from your Department, and at this juncture I must say that in the past I was working with the hon Prof Ndabandaba in
order to obtain computers for schools, and this was taken up by you when you were not yet the Minister, but you did the spade work. Those schools have computers and telephone cafes, which
is the work that you did and which was completed by you, Mr Minister. I think we need to commend that.


These schools have classrooms full of computers, and the hon Prof Ndabandaba will know that some time back I wrote to him about a school called Gawuza High School. I was in need of
computers, and he was working on that.


Minister Singh then took over, and that school has computers and it is also has a telephone cafe which reduces all the issues of bad discipline within the school and bad conduct by the pupils. I
think we need to commend that.


Some time back I spoke to Prof Ndabandaba about a school called Mpande, and I asked for computers, and the computers are now there. I think the Department is also in the process of
attending to the issue of renovating the school, which I think will be done with time. Such things need to be commended constructively.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


PROF M N KHUBISA: I also know, Mr Minister, that you had a problem with the suppliers who do not do their work and do not supply the school material promptly at the beginning of the year.


THE SPEAKER: 30 seconds.


PROF M N KHUBISA: I know the Department may be trying its level best to ensure that the learner support material is available at schools on time, but we urge that the service providers who
                                                                                               3920


do not provide the material on time be followed up to see what is happening. Perhaps because we are also dealing with black empowerment, to see their problems so that we navigate with
them where they are inefficient, what it is that they need and where the Department can assist in case they have problems. The PPN and other related issues like the LIFO keep our schools a
bit unstable...


THE SPEAKER: Thank you. The next member to deliberate is the hon member Mr Keys. You have three minutes to do so.


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Thank you, Mr Speaker, and thank you to the hon Minister of Education, Mr Narend Singh, for his comprehensive report on his Department. His forthright
manner and honest appraisal of his Department sends a breath of fresh air through these sometimes stuffy and overheated Chambers.


By definition an under-funded department will overspend. Despite being able to bump up the per capita allocation, and other positive reports within the Minister's report, the national average is
still well above that of KwaZulu-Natal.


Overall the Department has been able to pull itself up by its boot laces, and shows a marked improvement over the past three years. To the Minister, his Head of Department and the
Department as a whole, we commend them for their effort and will look forward to further improvements next year, even if I am not returned to these hallowed walls.


I want to dwell on the Education System that we have. The lot of an educator has always been to carry a heavy load of paperwork, what with testing, marking, monitoring, etcetera. But, Mr
Minister, I have had feedback from a number of educators, principals and inspectors, and their concerns are all similar. The staff feel overwhelmed by the paperwork that they have to contend
with. It is a paper factory greater than that produced by this Legislature.


On top of their testing and marking, there is this continuous assessment process in Grade 12. Then we have the externally set departmental exams for Grade 11, and then the CTA, the
Common Tasks for Assessment in Grade 9. More and more paperwork is being loaded on their shoulders in the name of accountability, reliability, integrity and standards.


In most subjects, subject heads and often entire departments, are called out of school up to four times a year to have their marks and learner portfolios approved. More often than not, these
take place during teaching time, and their learners are left to their own devices.


THE SPEAKER: 30 seconds.


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Educators everywhere are chasing marks, portfolios and mark sheets over and above their normal teaching duties. There is a real possibility of educator
burnout, and the improving results we have seen over the past years may well be short-lived if we drive our educators into exasperation, frustration and disillusionment.


The hon Ndabandaba alluded to morale. Morale of teachers does not depend purely on the package that one receives at the end of the month, but on job satisfaction and the support system
that comes with it. I thank you.
                                                                                                 3921


THE SPEAKER: The next member is the hon Mr Edwards. You have five minutes to deliberate.


MR B V EDWARDS: The NNP will always give credit where credit is due and will not criticise for the sake of point scoring as some others may do.


The hon MEC Mr Singh must be congratulated on not only his very balanced report, but on the sense of balance he is busy introducing to the Department of Education responsible for the
proper spending of our largest vote, R11,8 billion.


The positive aspects of the hon Minister's report deals with a substantial number of key targets being met, and this is welcomed.


That learner to educator ratio of 32,9:1 and to classrooms at a ratio of 36,9:1 at secondary schools shows real progress and is well ahead of target, and well done.


At primary school level the news is not as good, and serious attention will have to be given to this phase which is well below target. The continued backlog of some 14 000 classrooms also
needs priority attention, but I realise the financial constraints and we cannot spend funds we do not have.


The high cost of building quoted to the Department at an average cost of R80 000 per classroom gives great cause for concern, and ways and means must be found to reduce this cost, which
at the present rate will take at least nine years to eliminate.


The midyear review projects and overspending by the year end in excess of R700 million, the largest programme being programme 2, Public Ordinary Schools, is projected to overspend by
R460 million, with total personnel cost being overspent by R500 million, included.


In addressing the issue, the Department is taking steps to reduce expenditure, but I believe this could have been done in a more balanced way if attended to earlier.


At the end of the school year in 2002 great unhappiness and malfunction of Education at many schools was caused by the sudden notice given to so-called temporary teachers. We hoped this
would not be repeated in 2003. However, last week school principals were summoned to emergency meetings where they were informed that a revised post provisioning norm for 2004 will be
implemented.


In addition, temporary teachers who were cast to the wolves last year and then re-appointed in January to save salaries, with scant regard for their loss of livelihood - it seems there is little hope
of their being re-instated next year.


This new teacher/pupil ratio was supposed to top slice the advantaged schools to benefit the disadvantaged schools, but because of poor administrative procedures several of the poorest
schools are also losing teachers, such as New Holmes Primary School in Pietermaritzburg, just to name one. The school principal, Mr Basil Manuel, who also represents APEK commented, "It
is pathetic."
                                                                                               3922


No planning whatsoever has gone into this. It seems a top slicing exercise has been carried out without real thought or consultation, and many of the surplus cuts are teachers who fill key
vacant and sorely needed specialist posts.


School principals report that now, at the end of the year, they have to search for not only key post teachers, but also the funds to pay for what are now unfunded posts.


School principals, staff and parents and pupils in many schools are demoralised and angry and an appeal is made to the hon Minister to explain to the House what has gone wrong and how is
the dilemma to be addressed.


SADTU has accused departmental officials of holding Education to ransom, and further state that implementing the new ratio will disrupt Education and cause immense chaos while temporary
teachers' contracts have been terminated. It is estimated that already 7 500 extra teachers are needed, and enrolment is expected to increase next year.


The teacher unions also claim that the PPN has never been approved by them. I do not know if they were consulted. I guess they have.


To sum up, one school head in writing to the Education CEO, Professor Dlamini, said:


         It is a crying shame. When will Education become an absolute priority? If we do not do a proper job with our children, then God help us as a nation!


Enough said. We now need to know how the debacle is to be addressed.


On a brighter and lighter side, I note members should have received the October publication of the Department of Education titled "Educators Indaba".


THE SPEAKER: A minute left.


MR B V EDWARDS: This gives a most thorough overview of the planning concerning the 2003 senior certificate examinations. This planning and controls, it seems, have been excellent, and
the Department must be congratulated on this programme.


The CEO seems confident that the target of a 75% overall pass rate will be achieved for the 102 809 full time and 36 353 part time candidates. This after steady progress in reaching a most
commendable 70,8% in 2002, I wish the Department and the matriculants good luck.


The hon Minister quite rightly pointed out the real problems faced by over 80% of matriculants in entering the job market. We need a paradigm shift to ready matriculants for the future.


Education Indaba also has many pictures of the hon Minister. I must say, a most interesting one is on page 15 which shows the Minister at the launch of the book, "Whispers from Africa". Mr
Logan Naidoo is captured as the Minister, and Mr Singh as the author. It could be confusing to some.
                                                                                                  3923




I end in congratulating the Minister and hope he is going to soon rival J K Rowling in the Harry Potter books. [LAUGHTER]


THE SPEAKER: The next member is the hon member Mr A Rajbansi for five minutes.


MR A RAJBANSI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I also want to congratulate the hon MEC for Education for an excellent report, especially with emphasis on performance on the Education journey.


I also want to express my appreciation to the hon Minister for having conveyed his sympathy on the occasion of the bereavement in my family, very ably conveyed by the hon Mr Kamal Panday
at the funeral yesterday, together with other sympathies which we received.


I want to also express my appreciation to the hon Minister in respect of his response on the query raised about the closure of the Juma Musjid school in Durban, and the subsequent action
which the hon Minister has taken.


The hon Minister has a hands-on approach here, because there is still bureaucratic bungling. I did indicate in my further questioning last week that we should avoid leasing premises and
carrying unnecessary expenditure, plan with the people, make sure that whatever alternative arrangements are made, is done with the support of the parent community.


I do not think his officials are following this to the letter. You cannot allow a situation where you have a wonderful school that is not being utilised by the learners while the departmental officials
still want to press you to try and arrange a school and spend about R1,4 million on renovations.


The hon Mr Kamal Panday and others have been educators. We are always amused with the term, very good window dressing with excellent flowery reports. I can give you quite a lot of
bouquets, but Education also requires quite a lot of brickbats.


If we have to take stock of the state of Education from 1994, the problems, the failure to report, failure to explain to our Public Accounts Committee and Finance Committee, things have
improved tremendously with the arrival of the new Chief Executive Officer, and I am sure the hon Minister has a hands-on approach. He will attend to matters as quickly as possible.


We cannot tolerate any more demonstrations and negative publicity in respect of educators who are doing the work and not receiving their hard-earned salary. This must be totally eliminated,
and there must be no excuses for it.


Furthermore, in spite of the fact that we are boasting about the improvement of the results in our Education, etcetera, let us take how many learners in this Province are without good
classrooms, toilets, water, decent basic facilities and amenities.


I want to congratulate the hon Minister for doing something very unusual this year in sponsoring the Diwali festival. The Department did it, and I want to express the wish that the Minister
sponsors this equally next year after the elections, because the MF will be making a very big noise that this must be an annual affair.
                                                                                                 3924




I also want to thank the hon Minister for arranging a boat ride on the occasion of the 143rd year of the arrival of Indians in this country. It cost him R285 000. You could have built five and a
quarter classrooms with that money, but notwithstanding, it is money well spent.


The Minister is younger than me in age. He needs some advice. I fully support the money you gave for Diwali. I fully support the boat ride. People were calling you Captain Narend Singh,
because you were the Captain of the boat, but please do it properly. Please do it with transparency. Tell everybody in the Province of Natal that there is going to be grant-in-aid for Diwali and
Eid next year so that people will be in the know. They can apply it equally for all people from all race groups.


I want to compliment the Department for also improving sports, for the grant-in-aid for the various sporting organisations. Quite a lot of our learners were selected to participate in sporting
activities in other provinces, in other parts of the international arena, and I want to encourage the Department and the Minister to see that we encourage them by giving them financial
assistance.


I think KwaZulu-Natal is doing well in sport. May I suggest that the educators wake up as far as sport is concerned? I said this previously, that when the school bell rings, you have a traffic jam.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: I now call upon the hon member, Mrs J Downs, to deliberate for three minutes.


MRS J M DOWNS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am cognisant of the work that is being done in the Education Department to improve the results and the performance of the Education
Department, but when we are appropriating at some stage, and we are looking at our midterm expenditure review, we also have to be cognisant of the fact that for three years running, this
Department has had an audit report on which the Auditor-General has expressed no opinion.


This is very serious. We have raised it several times in the Public Accounts Committee. We have suggested at times that the Treasury take over the administration of this Department, which
they are unable to do.


The problem is that it has serious implications for what is happening in KwaZulu-Natal, because unless the teaching and school contingents are adequately supported by proper administration,
you have the kinds of problems where you have teachers who have not been paid for some months, striking. That leads to all sorts of problems within the morale of the school.


The other thing that I think it leads to as well, is that we are not able to do a proper and comprehensive audit on exactly what is going on in our schools.


Let me give you an example. One of the issues on which we are falling behind in South Africa is maths and technology. I know that we have improved our matric results considerably, but we
have not improved on them too much in the area of maths, technology and science.


If we want economic growth in KwaZulu-Natal, we have to provide the kind of people that have the necessary skills to support economic growth. At the base of those economic skills is maths,
science and technology.
                                                                                                3925




I really believe that we need to be able to have a Department that can run its administration smoothly, so that audits can be done where they need to be done. I am aware of the improvement in
the results and the commitment of the majority of teachers and politicians towards Education and improving Education.


I am aware that the Department has done a huge amount with inadequate funds, because we have been underfunded historically for many years, which I have said consistently over the years
as well.


I really believe the time has come, hon Minister. I would like to see at next year's Public Finance Committee meeting that at last, even if it is not a particularly good one, we have an audit report
on which the Auditor-General can express an opinion, at least that we have money well spent, number one.


Number two, let us focus on maths, science and technology and improve our skills in those subjects. Thank you.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. Before I proceed to call on the next member to deliberate, I have an urgent announcement to make. Members of the Finance Portfolio
Committee are requested to meet in the ANC caucus room at 14:30 for finalisation of the Adjustments Estimate Bill. The Chairperson requests the members to do that.


I do not see the hon member Mr S Qoma, who is supposed to deliberate for three minutes. I will therefore call upon the hon member, Mr J Slabbert, to deliberate for three minutes.


MR J H SLABBERT: Thank you, Madam Speaker.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon member, just a minute. I am fighting with the technology. Thank you. Hon member, Mr J Slabbert, to deliberate for three minutes, please.


MR J H SLABBERT: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I realise the hon Minister Singh is occupying a hot and very important seat in this lovely Province of ours, KwaZulu-Natal. I have reason to
believe that he is trying, but there are areas where he is really not trying hard enough.


The hon Mr Keys mentioned the issue of job satisfaction. Job satisfaction amongst teachers is important, but I am not sure for how long many teachers will still enjoy job satisfaction when you
consider the conditions under which some of them must work.


I think I have said it, but I can say it again, I have seen schools with potholes in the classrooms. Potholes like we find on our tar roads. What is more, whenever a teacher goes into a
supermarket to go shopping, when he gets to the till or the pay point, he cannot pay with job satisfaction. He must pay with hard cash.


I will conclude with that, and appeal to the Minister to please go and visit those schools which we have visited to go and see for himself, and I can assure him that night he will have to take a
sleeping tablet, because he will not sleep. Thank you.
                                                                                             3926


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. I now call the hon member, Mr R Keys, to deliberate for five minutes.


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): I thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to continue with the concerns raised by educators and principals.


The imposition of external exams for Grade 11 in the months of June and September is a further imposition. Their full mark sheets need to be delivered to the Department after due cluster
moderation, adding further to the stress levels of educators.


Many schools believe that internal exams are better at giving a true assessment of the learners. At Grade 9 level all learners must embark on Common Tasks for Assessment, which is part of
the General Education and Training Certificate, or GETC.


Mr Minister, have we not reached the stage where our children are being over-tested and under-taught? Have our teachers not reached the point of burnout?


When I read the results of the survey by NAPTOSA in 2002, that 42% of the educators would prefer to leave the profession if they could and only 37% would choose to remain as their first
choice. The warning bells start ringing very loudly indeed. The Education Department must clearly embark on a campaign to motivate their educators and create the environment where
educators would be willing to go that extra mile.


Instead, our teachers are being sought and found, and offered posts overseas and in the private sector, and this to the detriment and demise of our Education Department. Who suffers in the
long run? The children, our Province and South Africa. The brain drain undermines the very potential of our people and our country.


Hon Minister Singh, I have raised this as a concern emanating from some senior management in our Education System. You, with respect, have had this system imposed on the Province from
the National Department of Education, along with the philosophy of "pass one, pass all", for the removal of PT from the curriculum, the outlawing of the Olympic sport of target practice, the
removing of examinations as a determinant of progress and success.


We have a philosophy where there is excellence in mediocrity. We no longer award excellence in achievement, and this will be to the detriment of South Africa. We need to strive for excellence
at every level of Education and move away from mediocrity. We need leaders of the future who have vision and insight and the courage to prove it.


The Provincial Department, besides what Mr Rajbansi might think, has to work within these very difficult confines, and manage the sheer paperwork that has to be pumped out by the educators
in schools. Yes, the exam results are encouraging, but at what cost?


Enough is enough of overburdening our educators and over-testing our children. We urge the Department to take note of these concerns and address them before they find that their best
assets, our teachers, are lost to us as they head for greener pastures.


The threat of the loss of educators in our Province is further aggravated by the AIDS pandemic. Of 471 schools surveyed last year, there were 424 teachers that died from illness. Of
                                                                                                  3927


importance, 92% of these teachers were under the age of 50. What does the National Government do? It closes down teachers colleges.


We, as a Province, may well have to invest in many more bursaries for teachers to fill the vacuum that is growing, or will the ANC bring in the Cubans, as they have done elsewhere in other
departments, as if our citizens are not competent to educate our children?


The ANC seems to be more concerned with their arms than the bodies and minds of ordinary youth and teachers.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Madam Speaker, despite the denials, the facts are on the table. The ANC has been in denial and has been taken, shouting and crawling now to accept that
there is a crisis in this Province.


I would like to say that this Province has the potential to lead the country. Mr Minister, you have our support in bringing quality education to our youth, and securing the best future for our
Province.


We only hope that our colleagues in the ANC will see the moat they have dug for themselves and that we will not fall into it ourselves. I thank you, Madam Speaker.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. I shall now call upon the hon member, Mr S B Ngidi, to deliberate for ten minutes.


MR S B NGIDI: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. I thank the Minister for the report tabled to us, which was well-balanced, well read out and thoughtfully crafted. I will
talk about that a little bit later on.


Before I do that, may I say to you, Mr Minister, the fact that the hon Rajbansi is now talking about culture, is actually also an indication that you are expanding the cultural activities in the
Province. He has not spoken about culture before in this manner that he is speaking now, which means something is happening. The hon member referred to the function that was held to
celebrate the arrival of the SS Truro 143 years ago, as well as the to the different functions that were held for Diwali and Eid.


I agree with Jo-Ann Downs when she speaks about the disclaimer which this Department has received for the past three years.


AN HON MEMBER: Honourable!


MR S B NGIDI: We need to do something about that. The hon Prof Ndabandaba has spoken about a number of schools. He mentioned some teachers, but he did not relate the full story.
                                                                                               3928


Maybe let me try and add a little bit of truth to that story.


At Embokodweni Primary School there is a principal, Themba Shezi. He is a well-known SADTU official. He had in his employ temporary educators. It is alleged that he cancelled the cheques
of his temporary educators because they were not members of SADTU.


AN HON MEMBER: Shame!


MR S B NGIDI: He then replaced the temporary educators with other temporary educators who are also members of his own teacher union. So you have a situation where a principal acts in a
manner and removes temporary educators and employs other temporary educators without authority.


Then you have this problem where the Department is not sure as to whether they started in April, May, June or July, because he does this of his own accord, and therefore you have this kind of
situation where there are teachers who are working and have not been paid, because the manner in which they were employed was highly irregular.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MR S B NGIDI: I am the first one to say that if a person has worked, that person has to be paid. That is up front. I am proposing that what needs to happen here is that the Department should
pay those educators, but because they were not employed in a proper manner, terminate their services, and recover the money from the official, in this case the principal, who appointed those
educators irregularly.


Maybe if we begin to do that, when a principal or any other official appoints people without authority, they should pay for that. This will help us, because the Department of Education is going to
be overspending its budget because of the pressure on the personnel budget. Another reason for the pressure on the personnel budget is the manner in which principals or other officials
appoint people.


These are debates which we are entering into with regard to the adjustments estimates for the financial year ending 31 March 2004. In other words, these debates are in connection with the
midterm expenditure report of departments and in this case the Department of Education.


In essence, these debates are to tackle issues related to service delivery and the cash flow for the first six months ending on 30 September. Of course, issues related to projections of what is in
store for the future up to the end of the year are pertinent to this debate.


Without much ado, may I thank the hon Minister Singh for the report he read on Tuesday, 27 November 2003. It was a matter of fact report with no frills. The report explained the status quo of
all the programmes with emphasis on service delivery performance, as well as financial performance, without being presumptuous.


You could easily trace service delivery measures as stated in the White Book of the Department's performance in the first six months. The midterm reviews are by right designed to hold
                                                                                                3929


departments to account on their performance in the first six months of the year. This has to be measured against that which they stated up front, which they will be able to do. In cases where
they are unable to meet their target, explanations for the shortcomings should be provided. We should applaud them if they meet, or preferably if they exceed, their target. Tied to all this is to
project into the next six months leading to the end of the year, whether there will be any over-expenditures.


The Minister of Finance, in his report to this House, explained that the Department of Education and Culture is projecting an over-expenditure of R280,082 million. This includes a negative
opening balance of R250,191 million from the 2002/2003 financial year. This over-expenditure is specifically related to personnel expenditure.


The pressure on the personnel budget is, according to the Department, due to the employment of temporary educators and the increasing number of substitute educators. I know that the
Department has budgeted for 320 substitute educators against a need, which in reality is more than ten times that number. Seen against this backdrop policy of having each class provided with
an educator, it becomes understandable why this pressure on the personnel budget exists.


We are presently faced with the scourge of HIV/AIDS which has increased the number of educators who are absent from school for health reasons. The number 320 provided for substitutes for
a pool of 74 000 educators is not realistic.


Apparently we are not far from a situation where almost half the number of practising educators need to be substituted at one point or another. With a pool of 74 000 we actually need about 30
thousand more educators to substitute those who would be away on one or other form of leave.


The spending pressure on personnel has resulted in an annual laying off of temporary educators at the end of the year, re-employing some of them in January, start paying them in the new
financial year, overrunning the budget again, and laying them off again in December. This solution and the resultant problem becomes a perennial nightmare. Perhaps we need to view
seriously what we allocate to Education. I know that the current share to Education is around 34% of the total budget. This is way below the national average, which is at present above 40%.


The only conclusion that I can come to is that for as long as there is this presumed underfunding of Education, there will always be a perennial problem of pressure on the personnel budget.


I believe that an educated nation will be a healthy nation, capable of fending for itself, and thus less pressure will be exerted on the State Social Services. The first thing we need to do is to
educate the Province so that it becomes a healthy province because of Education, and because it is educated, it can fend for itself and have less pressure on social services.


It is not a dream to state that any economic development programme which does not have at its centre and as a vanguard, the educational development of a society, will have a scarce chance
of succeeding. Educational development is a pillar and an anvil from which all other forms of development can be launched.


May I conclude by saying that all serious minded members of this House will see the light from the words that precede above. I also know that there are exceptions to the rule. It is unfortunate
that such exceptions are locked in their own lager of self-righteousness, and we will forever be doomed to be mere critics. I thank you, Madam Speaker.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!
                                                                                                3930




THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member.


MRS F X GASA: Are we allowed to eat mealies in the House?


HON MEMBERS: No! Hau!


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Please stop eating in the House. This House is respectable. I shall now call upon the hon member Mr Mthimkhulu to deliberate for seven minutes.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Firstly, may I join the chorus in thanking the hon MEC for the report he delivered before this House on 27 November.


Mr Minister, I would like to assure you that we, on this side of the House, whenever we raise issues and criticise, we do it in the name of striving for the improvement of conditions and situations
in our Education Department. We are not raising matters just because you are not part of this contingent of this House, you belong to a smaller party in this House. It is not so.


Mr Minister, I must congratulate your Department. Firstly, we raised from this side of the House that it is unacceptable that in the top management of the Department there are no women. At
least one must congratulate you that now you are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.


The mere fact that there is Mrs Qunta, who is the Deputy Chief Financial Officer, means that at least the things you are saying means you are listening carefully and have decided to take steps
in the name of catering for the needs of our people, and I must thank you for that.


Mr Minister, we heard the hon junior Prof Khubisa criticising the hon member Prof Ndabandaba. I think that is why it was misplaced, because Prof Ndabandaba, my comrade was raising
matters which were of primary importance, which you, Minister, must attend to.


The mere fact that educators are experiencing serious problems with the issue of non-payment, even though that matter is being attended to. Why did it happen, from the onset? These are the
things that we must raise in order for them to be corrected.


When we raise issues, as I have indicated, we raise them for the sole purpose of seeking solutions. For instance, from this side of the House we have raised our concerns about the situations
in some schools in terms of overcrowding and classrooms which are dilapidated.


Let me remind this House that the school in Kokstad, called Nomzamo Primary School, has only four classrooms. One classroom has to accommodate 120 pupils, the other one has 184 and
the other 190 learners in one classroom.
                                                                                                       3931




I would like to know, Madam Speaker, if we raise concerns as the ANC in this House, with regard to such a situation, it is saddening to hear hon members like the hon Ngidi regarding us as if
we are just politicking, whereas it is our responsibility to look after the welfare of our children.


It is important for members of this House, on the other side, to understand what is meant by constructive criticism, and to understand that it is our responsibility, as public representatives, to
raise matters of public importance.


Comrade Prof Ndabandaba raised a matter which is very important. The fact that in the Department it is a known secret that you are appointed just because it is known that you are IFP-
aligned. That is known.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: Even the CEO of the Department, he himself publicly said when he was appointed that he is aligned to the IFP because it makes sense for the Head of Department to
be aligned to a party that is...


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat. I would like to know what the hon member is rising on.


MR S B NGIDI: I am rising on a point of order, Madam Speaker. The hon member Mr Mthimkhulu knows that he cannot attack an official in this House because the official cannot defend
himself. This was raised in the morning by the hon Ndebele. He is doing the same thing now, he is attacking an official in this hon House, and he knows very well that official cannot stand up
and defend himself. There is a ruling with regard to this and he must desist from continuing to do this.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. Hon member, Mr Ngidi, like it was discussed in the morning, I would like you to put that in writing. Hon member, please continue.


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: Madam Speaker, it is so saddening to see a person who is supposed to be an hon member acting like a chameleon. Right now I am not criticising the CEO, but
stating a fact that is known and on record, that the CEO himself said this, and it was even reported publicly.


Okuxakayo Somlomo, ukuthi ilungu elihloniphekile uMnumzane uNgidi emzuzwini engembalwa edlule kade ehlasela uThishanhloko oyi-SATU, sathula sangasho lutho kodwa manje usethanda
ukudukisa leNdlu uthi ngihlasela i-official, akukho official engiyihlaselayo. Ugxuma nje Somlomo, uMnumzane uNgidi ngoba uyazi ukuthi kuyiqiniso ukuthi the Department of Education is loaded
with IFP activists who are masquerading as officials of the Department.
                                                                                              3932




This is what is causing problems ngoba uMnyango usetshenziswa as a tool for mobilising for the IFP.


TRANSLATION: What is baffling here Mr Speaker, is that the hon member Mr Ngidi, a few minutes ago was attacking the principal who is a SADTU member, and we kept quiet, but now he is
misleading this House by alleging that I am attacking an official. I attack no official, Mr Speaker. Mr Ngidi jumps up because he knows the truth that the Department of Education is loaded with
IFP activists who are masquerading as officials of the Department.


This is what is causing problems because the Department is used as a tool for mobilising for the IFP. T/E


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order, please! Order! Thank you, hon member. Order, please!


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: Madam Speaker, on a point of order.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Will the hon member please take his seat?


AN HON MEMBER: But it is a point of order.


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: It is a point of order, I have the right to stand.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat. I am preparing to call the next speaker to speak.


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: Madam Speaker, the Rules of this House allow me to stand if I want to raise a point of order. It is the Rules of this House that give me that right.


HON MEMBERS: Yes!


THE ACTING SPEAKER: On what Rule are you rising?


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: I am rising on a Rule that is on a point of order.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Let us hear your point of order.
                                                                                                3933


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: Thank you, Madam Speaker, that sanity is now prevailing. Madam Speaker, I wanted to know whether it is permissible in this House if a member elokhu ekukhomba
kanje [constantly points a finger at you like this] as Mr Ngidi is doing.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon member, thank you for that. There is no Rule which provides for pointing of fingers. Thank you. I shall now call upon the hon Minister for Education and Culture
to deliberate for 15 minutes.


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Let me start off by thanking all the hon members who have participated in this debate. I think
they, more than anybody else, will realise that 15 minutes is not enough for me to respond to all the issues that they raised.


I would therefore urge that more of those who do not attend the portfolio committee meetings do attend, because I make an effort to attend almost every portfolio committee meeting. I have
almost 20 of my senior officials present at all these portfolio committee meetings, and I have no doubt in my mind that if some of these issues which relate to individual schools are raised, they
will be given due attention.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! INTERJECTIONS.


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): Madam Speaker, I require your protection because I allowed others to speak. I sat very quietly.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order, please!


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): I think Rule 87 should be applied if members do not behave in this House.


Madam Speaker, I am also urging the Chairperson of the portfolio committee, together with all the members of the portfolio committee who attend the meetings, and the alternate members, let
us start off next year, mid-January, with two or three days away somewhere, where we can raise all these issues, because there were some very valuable suggestions that arose in this debate.


I am not saying all was criticism, and even if there is criticism, there is nothing wrong with criticism, provided it is done in a way that will improve the Education system that prevails in this
particular Province.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): There have been assertions made which are totally uninformed, and that is regrettable. These are things that we need to sort out in a two
or three-day workshop, and I am sure even if my senior officials are on holiday, if I make a request they will come back so that we can spend some time together.


Madam Speaker, it is regrettable that the hon Mr Mthimkhulu has brought in the issue of the political affiliations of Department officials. I have not heard anybody else in this House in any other
                                                                                                   3934


debate talk about the political affiliation, and I think it is an affront to the dignity of any official, whether it is in Transport, Health or Education, to indicate that they belong to certain political
parties.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): Madam Speaker, just two weeks ago, when there was an interview for I think the Public Service Commissioner, or something, a senior
official of my Department came to the interview as an applicant, and used half the interview to indicate that he is an activist in the ANC, a very strong member, etcetera.


So, to make an assertion here today, that all the senior members and members in my Department are IFP is totally incorrect. I do not go on a witch hunt within my Department to see who
belongs to which political party, and I would urge that hon members desist from bringing officials into this kind of debate.


Madam Speaker, let me also remind members on the other side of the House that in as much as you say you have a right to raise matters of Education, you have that right. But in as much,
members on this side of the House have a right to raise issues where they find that the Health services are not appropriate, not meeting the needs of the people, when they find that Transport is
not appropriate to meet the needs of the people, it cuts both ways.


If members on this side of the House raise issues, do not construe it on that side as political. In the same way you raise issues, we do not want to construe them as political. So, please, have
that kind of understanding, and remember that there are two sides to every story, hon Mr Mthimkhulu. We have every right on this side to raise issues of Health, Transport and things like that.
You must respect that fact.


MR K PANDAY: Well educated.


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): Madam Speaker, when we talk about the hon Mrs Qunta, yes, it is a pity that my predecessor did not employ more females, but that is
history.


Mr Mthimkhulu wants to take credit for the fact that Mrs Qunta was appointed. Success has many fathers. Failure has one. [LAUGHTER] You are one of those many fathers that is claiming
success, in the same way that so many others on this side can claim to be part of that success.


Madam Speaker, I may not be able to deal with all the issues raised by all the hon members, and I hope they will forgive me. I have a number of senior officials seated here, on the other side,
who have been taking copious notes, sending the replies, and as I did during the budget debate, I will respond if I have not responded here orally to any of the issues that were raised.


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: Madam Speaker, on a point of order.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: The hon Minister, to take his seat. Let me hear what the hon member is rising on.
                                                                                              3935




MR M E MTHIMKHULU: Madam Speaker, I rise on Rule 106(3) which says:


         The Presiding Officer may upon receipt of a ...


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: Let me keep quiet and wait for Madam Speaker instead of listening to you.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon member, proceed.


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: Yes. Madam Speaker, I rise on Rule 106(1), which says:


         The Presiding Officer must permit an explanation during debate when a member verbally alleges that a material part of his or her speech has been misquoted or misunderstood, but
         the member is not permitted to introduce any new matter.


106(4) gives me that right. I will request at the end of the hon Minister's reply to explain what I meant by the appointment of the Deputy CEO, Mrs Qunta. Thank you.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. I will allow that explanation at the end of the speech. The hon Minister, please continue.


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I hope I get an opportunity to explain after he explains in terms of the same Rule, because we will have all
the members standing up here to explain. Maybe we should rely on what is recorded in Hansard, and then at the next sitting we can look into the issue, otherwise I would also want an
opportunity, and I will quote the same Rule to explain, and I am sure my colleagues would want to explain as well.


Madam Speaker, let me deal with some of the more general issues, and I will thank the hon Mr K K Nkosi, I am sorry, Prof Ndabandaba, for raising some of the issues that he has raised.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order! Order!


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): Madam Speaker, they can draw their own inferences from what I said. When it comes to motivation, what I said in my written report was
that we want to ensure that staff are motivated, we want to employ more staff.
                                                                                                 3936


Let me remind hon members that it is not only educators that we have in the Department of Education. We have administration staff. From day one that I was redeployed to this position, I have
indicated that too much focus has been placed on educators. We blame educators for this and that, we credit them for what they do, but we do not look at the administration.


We are trying to clean up our act in the administration. One of the hon members did say, without adequate support from the administration, I think it was the hon Mrs Downs or the hon Mr Keys,
you do not expect educators to perform at their optimum. When we talked about motivation, it is to motivate all our staff.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! INTERJECTIONS.


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): When we talk about low morale amongst educators, I think we just single out a few cases. We just talk from wanting to say that there is
low morale. Correct. The hon Mr Rajbansi, with his experience, he did say he was older than me. So you know, experience is the best teacher. One swallow does not make a summer.


Madam Speaker, we have got 75 000 to 80 000 educators. I can tell you by and large those that are committed and dedicated are doing an excellent job, but there are those that are really not
pulling their weight, and those are the educators and administrators that we will really be looking out for, to make sure that they deliver to their best ability to the Department of Education and to
the people of KwaZulu-Natal.


If we talk about the promotion circulars, dragging feet, there was an error, but all the promotion circulars were provided. Teachers have applied for promotion and interviews are taking place.
That is why I said it is good to say things in this House here which are based on fact, not make sweeping statements.


Madam Speaker, I think I must deal with HIV/AIDS and its impact on the pupil/teacher ratio, and what pressure is being placed on the Department to have additional teachers within the pool of
teachers.


We have some 74 000 teachers in our schools which should be paid part of PPN, but at the moment Persal shows that we have got close on 79 000. Five thousand more than we should have,
and a number of them are teaching in schools where teachers are absent.


The figures that were presented at the HIV/AIDS Conference provided us with a picture. If we say, on an average, 30% of the people of this Province are infected, and if you take 30% of the
teaching core, you are looking at 20 000 teachers. I am not saying 20 000 teachers are infected with the virus, but what I am saying is, we are affected by the fact that large numbers of
teachers are not at school because of illnesses, and there is nothing we can do about it, Madam Speaker.


You cannot fire a teacher who is ill, but you have to make sure that you have a temporary teacher in that class so that the children do not stay without a teacher. We are trying to manage the
situation as best as we can, but remember, we also fall victim of this pandemic that has struck our Province.


Madam Speaker, let us look at PPN. What is a PPN? I think the hon Mr Edwards, who raised this issue, has got to go back to New Holmes and check, because I have got a schedule here of
the PPN that was distributed to the schools, and New Holmes features here. I have all 6 000 schools here, by the way. New Holmes had 15 educators. The learner enrolment was 581. Next
                                                                                                3937


year they are projecting 591, and no teacher is going to be taken away from that school.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): For ten children more they are not going to get an additional teacher. Those are the figures here on the schedule, and you will find that
with this PPN, what we are doing is trying to cleanse the system.


Hon members of this House in debates and in portfolio committees, have been saying that we are working on the basis of inaccurate figures. We really need to put some system in place where
we get our figures correct once and for all. That is why we are going to be appealing to the Education Labour Relations Council and others that we are going to carry forward our 75 000
educators next year. We have given them the PPN, and it is all here. Some schools are going to lose, some schools are going to gain.


There are some schools where figures have been deliberately inflated. I have received reports of learners walking from one school to another school, so that they boost the figures in order for
the school to get more educators. It is happening, colleagues, and I want you to come with me to see this happening.


What I have said is in the first ten days of school, when it starts, the 200 SEMs and human resources and internal controls have now been directed, and I am meeting with the CEO and Dr
Mbokazi and others and they must provide me a work schedule of the first ten days when schools start. How many schools are they going to be visiting? How long are they going to spend in
each school? I want accurate figures of learners and teachers in the schools. In that way we will be able to clean the system, and if adjustments have to be made, if that school deserves an
extra two teachers, of course they will get them, but schools must not mislead us by giving us incorrect information.


I crave the indulgence of hon members of this House that if we do not clean up the system, it is going to be a perennial problem. Every year we are going to raise this problem. Let it go and it
will multiply.


As far as temporary teachers are concerned, as I said, there are a number of teachers employed as temporary. They are not holding permanent posts because permanent post people are ill, or
what have you. Their contracts expire on 31 December. When you draw up a contract with a temporary person, it expires on 31 December.


Last year, what had happened, is they terminated the contract on 31 December. This caused problems and some kind of disruption. What we are saying this year, in the school, for example,
PPN says 30. You have 26 permanent educators and six temporary, which is possible. You have got 32. The four that you choose as a governing body and principal will remain in that school
when the schools start next year. Four of them will remain. Their contracts will be renewed now for next year, but the other two will be told, "We will reconsider your appointment after we do the
ten-day audit."


In that way, if there are any excess teachers, we will be able to place them where we need them and that is how the PPN is going to work.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: The hon Minister to take his seat. I see there is an hon member who is rising, and I would like to know what he is rising on.
                                                                                               3938




MR A RAJBANSI: Will the hon Minister take a question?


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Is the hon Minister prepared to take a question?


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): Madam Speaker, only if you give me extra time. If it is a draw match at the end of 158, and you give me extra time, otherwise, there is a
lot more I want to say.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: The hon Minister is not going to take a question. Please take your seat. The hon Minister to continue.


AN HON MEMBER: NOT ON RECORD.


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): Yes. [LAUGHTER] Madam Speaker, those educators who may be classified temporary, that we will be retaining for next year, will get
the whole of December and the whole of January's salary. That is how it is going to work. So there will be no losses.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): Madam Speaker, I only have one minute 38 seconds, and there are a number of issues.


Learner support material, we are going to do something.


Job satisfaction, the hon Mr Slabbert, I am going to speak to the Department of Transport about fixing up the potholes, and I am sure they will come and help us. [LAUGHTER]


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): Disciplinary action is going to be taken against those educators who falsify figures, who do not submit information on time to the
Department. Not only educators, but officials. Heads are going to roll. We are going to do that. We are going to be very strong.


Madam Speaker, let me say in conclusion, I am not here to be in the popularity stakes, neither is my Department. We are here to put systems in place that will benefit the people and children of
KwaZulu-Natal. That is what we are here for. We cannot be all things to all people. There will be some people who will not be satisfied, but for us, as long as the majority are satisfied with what
we are trying to do, then we are happy.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!
                                                                                                 3939




MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon members of the House, the portfolio committee, the CEO and his wonderful team, many of them
who are present, the educators, learners and parents for their co-operation.


I want to also wish all the matriculants well. We are announcing the results on 30 December. Hon members are invited, but I just hope, and I will issue a stern warning to the learners out there,
if you are celebrating, do so responsibly. If you do not get as good a pass as you wanted, please do not take it too seriously and do stupid things. We want all of you back in our classes next
year, even if you failed this year. Thank you very much.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Minister. I shall now request the hon member, Mr M Mthimkhulu, to explain for three minutes, and there must be no debate.


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The hon Minister has told this House that I said something about the appointment of the Deputy CFO, Mrs Qunta, in order to get credit.
I would like, for the record, to repeat what I said.


I said to raise matters in this House does not necessarily mean we are doing that just because it is not part of this House. We, on this side of the House, have been, on a continuous basis,
raising our concern that there are no women in the top management of the Department.


Then I said it is pleasing that the Minister is seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, because right now we have Mrs Qunta, as the Deputy CFO.


In no way was I trying to get credit for that. I was just making a point, that when we are raising issues, we raise these issues in order for them to be attended to. I am correcting that.


MR M S MALAKOANA: Point of Order.


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: I understand Madam Speaker ...


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat. I would like to explain something. According to Rule 106(4)(b), it may not be debated. Continue hon member.


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Hon member Mr Malakoana will read the Rules. I was saying we appreciate the fact that siyambona uMama enza umsebenzi
obalulekile, [we see Madam doing an important job] which was an accolade on the part of the Minister. In no way was I trying to steal the thunder.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.
                                                                                              3940


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order! Please, hon member.


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: Madam Speaker, I pardon the Minister, because when I was talking, his colleagues were busy whining, that is why he missed what I was saying about Mrs Qunta.
That is what I wanted to explain. Thank you very much.


8.5      DEBATE: REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF HOUSING IN TERMS OF RULE 10(4)


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order, please! This ends the debate on the report on Education and Culture. We are now going to continue with item 8.5, which is the debate on the report from
Housing. I think members have received the amended speaker's list, as signed by all the Whips. I call upon hon member Miss Swartbooi, to deliberate for five minutes.


MR A RAJBANSI: Madam Speaker, on a point of order.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat. I am trying to set the clock with the time allocated. I will therefore call upon the hon member, Miss G Swartbooi, to deliberate
for five minutes.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MISS G N SWARTBOOI: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Outlining the progress made since the achievement of democracy in 1994, I support President Thabo Mbeki when he says that the
ANC-led Government has made steady progress in addressing apartheid's legacy of inequality and poverty. There is no country that has achieved what we have been able to achieve within a
period of ten years.


Bekuzobangcono ukuba bekuthiwa ilungu elihloniphekile u-Keys ubela ngoba ucabanga ukuthi mhlawumbe sibhekene nale arms deal yakhe kuphela ngimtshele mina. [It would have been
better if the hon member Mr Keys were here, because he thinks perhaps we are dealing only with his arms deal - if I can tell him].


Coming back to the midterm review report by the MEC of Housing, there is nothing new that I can talk about, because the hon MEC has just reported on the progress that has already been
made by the MEC of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs, Minister Dumisani Makhaye.              Ayikho into entsha ayenzileyo kubalulekile ukuthi ungabosina ngesihlangu senye indoda,
Ngqongqoshe. [There is nothing new that he has done and it is important that you do not make fun of another man, Mr Minister].


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MISS G N SWARTBOOI: Yenza ama-projects amasha esizokhuluma ngawo ayikho into okumele ngikhulume ngayo. Iyodwa nje kuphela Mama Somlomo into engingakhuluma ngayo [It
made new projects we are going to talk about and there is nothing I am supposed to talk about. There is one thing I can talk about Madam Speaker] and that is the failure of the MEC of
Housing to do a simple thing to implement Resolution 34 of this House which was adopted in May 2003. This is not acceptable. The response that he gave us in this report is not acceptable,
                                                                                                3941


because the eThekwini Municipality qualifies to be accredited.


He says he will do that, yet the Housing Act says that the MEC must in terms of the National Housing Act 107 of 1997, the Act says the MEC must, that means he must. eThekwini Municipality
needs to be accredited. I want the MEC to report on this.


I want to support the Resolution of the Finance Portfolio Committee which says that by no later than 15 January 2004, the MEC should be able to give immediate effect to this Resolution, as the
member of the Portfolio Committee of Housing also needs to get this report before he submits this report to the Portfolio Committee of Housing. I thank you.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. I shall now call upon the hon member Mr S V Naicker to deliberate for eight minutes.


MR S V NAICKER: I want to first of all respond to the hon member Miss Swartbooi with regard to the accreditation. The House will recollect that the issues of accreditation and capacity-
building have been topical since we were elected to Parliament.


The question of accreditation and capacity-building is so sensitive that unless and when we have absolute perfection with regard to the accreditation and capacity-building, then only will we be
able to implement accreditation. I appreciate the importance of it.


Madam Speaker, let it be known in this House, and it is equally questionable, as far as this country is concerned, that we only have one municipality in this country that has been accredited.
Why?


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR S V NAICKER: Therefore, Madam Speaker, we must be committed. If we do not have the rightful machinery to establish, so long will we have problems. I can understand the importance,
but at the same time, we do not want to be going and giving authority, and then to find that we are paddling again in quicksand as far as Housing is concerned. I do not want to claim credit, but
we have some experience with the hon Rajbansi in this particular field.


Coming back, the provision of affordable housing and essential services is a key priority of the new democratic order, and the creation of housing institutions are the mechanisms for sustainable
services and delivery and important steps forward, for which we are responsible.


There have been a series of steps and Resolutions taken on this portfolio that would facilitate the key elements in the service and delivery. It is important that the rules and regulations and
existing laws need to be followed for the proper implementation of the existing plans and policies.
                                                                                                 3942


It is important for the key players, in this instance, to come together in an attempt to solve the problems according to the existing legal framework, rules and regulations, so that the noble efforts
of the service delivery to our people in need bear their fruit for the sake of development and progress.


Madam Speaker, I want to come back to a subject which I spoke about previously, and which is being repeated. It is all very well to debate for the sake of debating in this House, but the
fundamental, as I have always mentioned, is our ability to translate our philosophy, our commitment and our beliefs into practical terms.


Therefore, let us ask ourselves a collective question in this House, forget about building a home. Thousands of homes have been built, and we have not been able to give ownership to those
homes. That is the formalisation of all the previous projects of the previous administration and the R293.


Why, Madam Speaker, have we not done that? How do we account for a person living in a home, allocated a home, living there for nearly ten years, and not being certain as to the ownership of
that house? These are areas that have to be addressed.


I want to mention and recommend strongly, and make a very special appeal to the hon Minister with regard to the formalisation process. There are many anomalies that have been discussed,
but let us not live in the luxury of such discussions, but find a solution to it.


Going through all these anomalies, one is the illegal sub-letting, the structural defects of that house, storm water drainage, arrear rentals, etcetera, the insecurity of unemployment, low incomes
and the pensioners. Therefore, Madam Speaker, I recommend that the arrear rentals be written off.


The houses be valued, hon Minister, at an historical cost, and a 25% discount be considered across the board should take care of all the defects, and also our lagging behind in not finalising the
situation.


The 7 500 extended benefits be extended beyond March 1994. It must be borne in mind, with great respect, and I want our hon colleagues and the hon Minister to note, from a conscience
point of view, that this entire exercise involves thousands of people, but any adjustment is not money from anybody's pocket. It is merely a book entry. We are coming to the tail end of the ten
years of democracy. What is significant that we were not able to resolve that one issue and have left those innocent people in total insecurity? We cannot.


As the portfolio committee I have to bring this thing up. We have pleaded that in the composition of the Housing Advisory Board that there be representivity from the demographics of this
Province. What has happened, tragically, there has not been representivity exercised in this. It is a reflection on this Province.


I still say, notwithstanding the confirmation of the Advisory Committee, that this confirmation be given. We have to go to the public, and we are accountable to our Province, as far as this is
concerned.


Again, to the hon Minister, I am a realist, we have over R300 million owing as arrears throughout. Obviously there are some problems with the administration. Should we not at this stage carry
out an exercise and write off all those arrears? Let us start to help our community and help people towards housing.
                                                                                             3943


These arrears go back many, many years. With this, the hon Minister with a religious background and a conscience, I want to appeal to him, he is a good person who is trying. We are here to
give him help and let us resolve these issues in the interests of our people. I thank you, Madam Speaker.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member.


MR A RAJBANSI: Point of order.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: The hon member, I would like to know what the hon member is rising on.


MR A RAJBANSI: In connection with the speaker's list, when I received the speaker's list, it was Mrs Thakur-Rajbansi. I went to the Whips' office. They admitted that they had made a mistake
and undertook to correct it. They corrected the list and said S Rajbansi.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon member, I recommend that the hon member goes back to the Whips.


MR A RAJBANSI: No, I will not go back to the Whips.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Please, hon member, I need to bring to the attention of the hon members that I have an amended list. In fact, that concerned the name of the hon member Mr S V
Naicker, and it had been signed by all Whips.


MR A RAJBANSI: But, Madam Speaker...


THE ACTING SPEAKER: I have not been informed about what the hon member is now raising. I will recommend that the hon member quickly discuss the matter with the Whips.


MR A RAJBANSI: Madam Speaker, I went to the Whips' office. They admitted the mistake. They made a typographical error. Must I go back to the Whips? I cannot find them. The only
place I have got is to complain to you, that S Rajbansi should be amended to A Rajbansi.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Over to the Whips. Let me just hear what the discussion is all about. Thank you. Hon Inkosi Gumede?


INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Chief Whip): Madam Speaker, I do not anticipate any problem. I think if the concern of the hon member Mr Rajbansi is genuine, he can simply bring the list so that we
can sign it.
                                                                                                  3944


MR A RAJBANSI: I will not do it.


INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Chief Whip): That has been the convention of this House anyway that whoever wants to change anything on the list the Chief Whips must sign it.


MR A RAJBANSI: On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I am not changing my name. I went there and told them they made a mistake. They need to rectify this. They made a typographical
error. Why I must go around and beg the Whips to sign an amendment? It is wrong. Please, admit a mistake.


INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Chief Whip): Madam Speaker, I think if that is the case, the matter ends there. Really, there is not much you can do. I am not aware of what Mr Rajbansi is saying
because he never conveyed anything to me. Maybe to the office, yes. Maybe the lady is mistaken, but I am not aware of it.


MR A RAJBANSI: No, you have got a secretary.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon member!


MR A RAJBANSI: Madam Speaker, I demand that I speak. I went and did my job. I gave my name, they made a mistake. They said they will rectify it. They made a mistake again. Must I go
and beg each Whip for my rights?


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat. I will request that the Whips sort out this matter whilst we continue with the debate. I shall now call upon the next speaker, who
is the hon member Mr A Christians to deliberate for four minutes.


MR A CHRISTIANS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I think it has just been a very long day, because a lot of errors are being made.


Let me start by thanking the hon Minister for his report. While it has been mentioned that the report is simply a feedback on programmes that had been reported to us by the previous Minister, I
have got to say that while this is true, that this was told to us by the previous Minister Makhaye, the report is not just mere words, but the actions.


In terms of the programmes, Mr Minister, we are glad that action is happening on them, and they are not just mere words anymore.


Furthermore, on the issue of accreditation, I am glad that the Minister has not acted on it until now, and the reasons he gives are very valid whether or not the capacity is there in eThekwini to
carry out the functions totally. Perhaps the hon members need to wait and actually read the report properly in order to see what the Minister is actually saying.


On the issue of the Finance Resolutions, I was a bit confused as to what the hon member Swartbooi was saying. Maybe it is confusing that she even is number three on the provincial list for the
ANC, but I mean, that is just confusion in totality.
                                                                                                  3945


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR A CHRISTIANS: The Finance Resolution clearly states the Minister must respond in January 2003. I, as a member of the Housing Committee, was invited, along with all the other
members to actually listen to the finance meeting when it was taking place, but unfortunately the hon member Swartbooi was not present. It was just the hon member Gcabashe that was
present.


Perhaps people need to take the time to actually see and go and listen to what our Minister is doing. The Minister is actually using the money that he has and not waiting till the end of the
financial year. He is actually using the money to build houses, and using the money in those programmes to clean up our hostels.


The hon Minister is also using the money to benefit those who most need it. You know who those people are? The poor orphans that he gave money to last week or this week to extend where
they are living so that they can be in the comfort that we, as ordinary members, are living in. We tend to forget that. All we want to do is say no, that is a DA man. He is not our Minister, he is a
DA Minister. You are forgetting he is our Minister in KZN, for all of us.


What we need to do is not just question him, but tell him what is right and what is wrong, and what is right is that he is not just giving us mere words as our former Minister, he is actually
implementing them. So, to our Minister, I say congratulations for actually not being a talker, but a doer. Thank you.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. I shall now call upon the hon member, Mr V Volker, to deliberate for three minutes.


MR V A VOLKER: Madam Speaker, with the very brief time that I have, I want to deal with two points of suggestions to the Minister. The one is, when housing schemes are developed or built,
make sure that all houses that are allocated will in fact be taken up and will be occupied.


It leaves a very bad impression if vacant houses are vandalised. It also gives a bad message to those who actually live there, or the many thousands that see and critically observe the
vandalism. I refer to houses in Mpophomeni and Bruntville. The Minister can check on that.


The second issue is that the Department appears to be taking a very long time to effect small, but justifiable, repairs to existing properties, for example, flats.


There is provision in the tendering process for smaller repair jobs to be done urgently, without the time consuming process of a major tender. When the roof leaks, and the house is flooded
because of damage to the roof in a storm, then it should not take months to repair it.


I am referring to an attitude by the Department, a policy approach determined by the Minister, and conveyed to his officials. I do not expect them to act irregularly or unlawfully, but do not find
excuses to have a long drawn out process. If it is broken, fix it. Thank you.
                                                                                                 3946




HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. I shall now call upon the hon member, Mr A Rajbansi, to deliberate for three minutes.


MR A RAJBANSI: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I want to express my appreciation to the hon Minister for Housing for giving us the report, whether it is his work or a continuation, his
preliminary report, or the continuation of work, these are facts.


I will make an appeal today, I notice that since next year is elections, there is too much politicisation of events. Now on the question of accreditation, let us put the facts on the table, and let the
people judge whether there is truth in the allegation that the DA MEC does not want to give that accreditation because the municipality is controlled by the ANC.


Let us check the facts. I am not saying it is so. I make one appeal, we cannot continue, after ten years, where people do not know the prices of their homes, where people who have invaded
homes have not paid rent for ten years, where the people living next door are asked to pay very high prices.


Our Constitution and the National Legislation says that there shall be fair administrative justice. You do not judge poverty around an area, you judge poverty also around an individual.


Why should two persons earning the same salary, collecting a State pension, living in a similar type of home pay different rents? That is the cry of people living in certain townships.


Why do you get rates relief? Why do you change rates rules etc? Please take seriously the appeal made by the hon Mr S V Naicker, which I made previously, let us clean the slate. Let us sort
out Cato Manor. Let us sort out Copesville.


If you have to say you want to pay your rent from tomorrow, we are prepared to give you a wipe-off of rental arrears, give you relief, because the history of the housing scheme, of assisting poor
people, is cost at the date of construction, historical cost. You do not add anything else. I want to say to you, hon MEC, take the bull by the horns, grant the relief.


I want to make an appeal. There are many problems in the eThekwini region. Why should one group of people pay R400 a month, and others pay R80 for the same house, with the same
income?


We are taking away caste apartheid before 1994, and replacing it with class apartheid. Two different things. We are only changing the apartheid. People should not be treated differently.


I want to make an appeal, gone are the days when you could push black Africans into small houses. Create better houses. Service sites. Give it to them. Help them to get loans in order for
them to live in better homes. Thank you.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. In the absence of Mrs Downs and Mr Qoma, I will call upon the hon member, Mr J Vilane, to deliberate for four minutes.
                                                                                                  3947




MR A RAJBANSI: On a point of order. I rise on behalf of the taxpayers. Their names should be put in the lost column in the newspaper. [LAUGHTER]


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat. Hon member, please proceed.


MR J S VILANE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to thank the Minister for his report that he tabled to this House on 25 November 2003.


The Minister in his report compared us with various provinces. Let us come back to KZN, and see the performance of the Department and the high needs. This Department is not supposed to
ask for a rollover.


Your Department has spent quite a number of resources. 56 workshops have been conducted in various municipalities. I think the money that has been spent in order to assist municipalities to
run their own housing schemes, I think you will have to assess whether that investment is starting to bear fruit.


Some of the schemes are being delayed, because other municipalities are not coming up with plans. I am requesting the Department that when you allocate money to any municipality, the
Department must make a strict follow-up as to whether the policies and procedures are still being adhered to.


I am saying this because in some of the municipalities you will find that they were allocated money, they invested the money and did not start the projects in time. They first wanted to
accumulate the interest before they started the projects.


Mr Minister, my last issue, which my colleague has already alluded to, is the eThekwini Municipality. I find it difficult, and need assistance in establishing what the difficulties are. I know that the
Minister has raised questions that need to be clarified before accreditation is granted. Why is it taking so long to reply to those questions so that accreditation can be granted and our people
can benefit?


I do not think the delay should only apply to Ethekwini, as the hon member Mr Naicker, has mentioned. Is that a reason for the accreditation not to be granted, just because it was Ethekwini and
not other cities?


That question was not in the Minister's report. The hon member here, Mr Christians, has provided us with fresh information. In this House we have the right to ask questions. He is much more
informed, because he knows what is happening in that Department more than we do, so therefore we are not wrong if we ask questions.


We ask questions, not to criticise, Mr Minister, but as public representatives to get clarity on those issues. Thank you.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!
                                                                                                    3948


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. I shall now call upon the hon Minister, Rev W Ngcobo, to deliberate for ten minutes.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


REV N W NGCOBO: (Minister of Housing): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to respond to some of the questions, comments and suggestions raised in the debate.


I would also like to thank all the members who have participated in the debate, and for the manner in which they have debated the issues.


Surely, Madam Speaker, I am not going to take up time by repeating what each member has said. Instead I will quickly touch here and there on a few important points that were raised in order
to put the record straight.


Let me begin with the issue of accreditation, which some of the speakers have deliberated on very strongly. I think it is very important to make this House understand that the issue of
accreditation has quite clearly become politically motivated, rather than an administrative issue. I therefore believe that it is important that we should address it thoroughly in order to give this
House a clear picture about this matter.


I have a lot of different letters and correspondence from different people. The one that I have now was received from the hon, the mayor Mlaba on 9 April 2003. We have just responded to it.


          I would like to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 9 April 2003. Kindly be advised that the matter is receiving attention from my Department. Yours sincerely, Rev Ngcobo.


The other one was from a Pathe from the same Durban Metro. I am receiving different letters with different information. That is my problem. That was received on 23 June 2003.


          I refer to your letter dated 23 June 2003, addressed to the hon Minister of Housing, Rev N W Ngcobo, and copied to me and others. The Minister has instructed me to secure from you
          a copy of the Council Resolution which supports your statement that Council is now prepared to accept responsibility to administer and maintain the R293 residual housing stock. A
          copy of this Council Resolution is not included in the copies attached to your letter.


Reading from the same Housing Act as the hon member Nzwake:


POWERS OF THE MUNICIPALITY TO ADMINISTER HOUSING PROGRESS


1.        A municipality may apply, in writing, to the Minister on the form specified by him or her for accreditation in terms of (2) for the purpose of administering one or more housing
          programmes.


2.        (a)       If the Minister is satisfied that the municipality complied with the criteria for the accreditation of the municipalities, he or she must, after consultation with the Minister, accredit
                                                                                                    3949


                   the municipality for the purpose of administering one or more of the housing programmes mentioned in the application subject to such conditions as he or she may determine,
                   which condition may include remedies for non-performance on the part of the municipality.


Let me also read u-(b) wakhona. [its sub-section (b)]


         The criteria determined in terms of section 11(b)(2) of the Housing Arrangement Act 155 of 1993 shall be deemed to be the criteria determined in terms of paragraph (a).


I am just reading from the same Housing Act that you read from, the hon member Ms Swartbooi.


Let me also, hon member, read this one as well.


         Accredit any municipality which may apply for accreditation provided that the municipality concerned satisfy the accreditation criteria, as agreed between the Minister in the Province,
         and the National Minister.


We still have a very long way to go. Isikhalo la sithi akuxhumaneki noMnyango. Ngifuna ukudila nale accreditation ukuze sonke siyithole kahle. Kuthiwa akuxhumaneki kahle noMnyango lapha
iriphothi yakwa-Housing Portfolio Committee kwakungama-remarks kaNgqongqoshe.


TRANSLATION: The complaint here is that it is difficult to link up with the Department. I want to deal with this accreditation for all of us to understand it well. It is alleged that it is difficult to link
up with the Department but the Housing Portfolio Committee Report contained remarks by the Minister. T/E


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Will the hon Minister take his seat. I would like to know what the hon member is rising on.


MISS G N SWARTBOOI: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Can the hon Minister take a question?


THE ACTING SPEAKER: The hon member wants to know whether the hon Minister is prepared to take a question?


REV N W NGCOBO: (Minister of Housing): Nzwake ngane yami lungu elihloniphekile ngicela ukungawuthathi. [Nzwake my child, hon member, I ask not to take it].


THE ACTING SPEAKER: The hon Minister to continue.


REV N W NGCOBO: (Minister of Housing): Ezihlokeni engangikhuluma ngazo ngangikhuluma nge-accreditation, housing advisory committee, addressing of non payment at Bonella, fund
transfer to Municipality. Than ngalelolanga ngaphendula kwi-Portfolio Committee mayelana ne-accreditation.
                                                                                                3950


Incwadi engangiyibhalelwe i-Finance Portfolio Committee eyayisinqumela ugwayi katiki siwuMnyango ukuthi asiphendule before umhlaka 30 Juni, nayi ibhaliwe nayo.


TRANSLATION: The topics I spoke about were accreditation, housing advisory committee, addressing of non-payment at Bonella, fund transfer to municipality. Then on that day I gave
answers to the portfolio committee about accreditation.


The letter written to me by the Finance Portfolio Committee which was in fact an ultimatum to the Department for us to respond before 30 June, here it is to: T/E


         Mr V C Xaba
         Chairperson of Finance Committee
         Private Bag
         PIETERMARITZBURG


         Dear Nonkosi


         Matters raised by the Finance Portfolio Committee, accreditation of the eThekwini Municipality, the application for accreditation of the eThekwini Municipality is receiving attention.


Kahle Nzwake uma ukhuzwa umuntu omdala ekukhuza ethi thula ubothula. [Hang on Nzwake, if an elder remonstrates with you telling you to be quiet, you must be quiet].


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Minister. This ends the debate on the report from Housing. We shall now move to item 8.6, that is the debate on the report from Welfare and
Population Development. I will request the hon members not to be so disorderly.


8.6      DEBATE: REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF SOCIAL WELFARE AND POPULATION DEVELOPMENT IN TERMS OF RULE 10(4)


THE ACTING SPEAKER: I will therefore call upon the hon member, Z Ludidi, to deliberate for ten minutes.


MISS Z M LUDIDI: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to commend the Minister for the explicit report he gave us. I would also like to thank his staff and the Department.


Last year we were saying the budget is adequate, of course, excluding the unforseen circumstances of the increase in projections. This year, looking at it, you would say it is substantial, but
social grants seem to have taken a large chunk of the budget, which is 93%.


The census report shows a big increase in the KwaZulu-Natal population, which constitutes 25% of the country's population. Nevertheless, our main expenditure is due to disability grants,
which is above 37% and the child support grant which is about 23%. The old age grant is very low at about 7%.
                                                                                               3951




We agree that people should get their benefits, but that the percentage is this high is a cause for concern. The Province has many disabled people. The life expectancy in the near future will be
less than 60 years. Thina ngeke sisaguga sibe izalukazi. [We are not going to grow old and become old women].


We call upon the hon Minister of Health to panelbeat us accordingly. We need to look into the disability grant increase closely. The formation of an assessment panel is welcomed, but they
also need to work within the terms of Regulation 2(4)(a) of the Regulations of the Social Assistance Act 59 of 1992, as amended on 1 December 2001.


The Minister has mentioned, in his portfolio committee meetings, that some of these people come in, claiming to be dumb, but end up talking. They seem to forget that they cannot talk. These
are the issues that need to be investigated. The fact that 2 448 applications were turned down by the Assessment Panel, but 96% of those were successful during the appeal, is also a cause
for concern. Whey did the Assessment Panel turn down such a high number?


The Child Support Grant is also one of the contributing factors to the Department's expenditure. We know that birth certificates are purchased, and the Home Affairs staff is to blame, but
unfortunately even the Scorpions are taking too long, if not failing, to control this. I think we need to look into the re-registration which eliminated a number of old age pension and disability
grants some time ago, as to how some strategic measures may be looked into.


The Mashishi case seems to be the solution to our misery. The National Government will now have to bear the brunt. Since 93% of our budget is taken by social grants, if the National
Government takes over, the Minister and the Department will be relieved.


The huge staff shortage that the Department is having, the lack of human resources in the Department, will be reduced since the social security staff will be re-allocated rather than being
retrenched.


The R68 million for poverty relief should soon be effected for those who are sick, because of hunger or starvation. This will make a tremendous difference.


The rollout process should be speeded up, hon Minister. This will help the socio-economic sector with the disability grant criteria. We would also like to urge the Treasury to effect the approved
request as soon as possible to help the Department. I would like to end there for the moment, Mr Speaker.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. The next member to deliberate is the hon member, Mr Mcoyi, you have six minutes.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!
                                                                                                     3952


MR W MCOYI: Mr Speaker, the last hon member was only short of thanking the Minister. We appreciate what you do.


Mr Speaker, this is the time where we should unanimously applaud the success achieved by our Minister of Welfare and his Department. We are all aware of the trying conditions under which
he is working. We must thank his tireless efforts and notice with appreciation the innate feelings he has for our people of KwaZulu-Natal. Look at the numbers of community halls that have
been initiated by his Department to shelter the old, frail and disabled to collect their pensions.


Poverty alleviation projects that have been put in place are functioning well and meeting the objectives. Furthermore, I am extremely happy that he is not ready to sit back and call it a day.
Instead, uMntwana waKwaMinya is rolling his sleeves up further and pulling his socks up higher.


This House, as a whole, should be jubilant of Mtwana's achievements, because accolades do not stop by Mntwana's door step or his Department, but are for us all, including the ever-opposing
opposition. These achievements brighten the colours of our South African flag in the midst of the whole world.


It is time that we wipe clear our eyes and focal glasses and see the open evidence before us. We should not be like green flies that go and hunt for nothing else but dirt and start spreading it all
over so as to contaminate mankind and cause sickness and death.


The problems in this Department cannot be easily measured and be planned correctly since they are influenced by natural phenomenons. Who could tell of the present effect of HIV/AIDS as
early as March? Nobody.


MRS N P NKONYENI: (Whip): Mr Speaker?


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mrs Nkonyeni. There is a point of order, hon member.


MRS N P NKONYENI: (Whip): Point of order, Mr Speaker, is it parliamentary to utter words such as green flies spreading death all over? Is that parliamentary language. Is it allowed?


THE SPEAKER: May I make my ruling tomorrow? Thank you.


MR W MCOYI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Sorry that we attended different schools. [LAUGHTER]


Surely nobody could tell of the present drought as early as the beginning of the year. Who could tell of the escalation of fraud that is carried out by various people in this Department? Luckily,
through Mtwana's foresight, the Fraud Unit is in place and quite active.


If you are not convinced, go and check the court cases and the cells in prison. Uyafosha Ukotshi. I wish to say this to the critics, this Department has a field of information for other provinces
                                                                                                3953


and even the national front.


Last month the National Minister of Welfare announced in the media that seven million people will receive their social grants before the end of this year, as a Christmas gift. Our Minister of
Welfare did not know beforehand, but it was relayed to him by radio listeners. Does that make Mntwana's work easy? Does it create stability in his Department and its performance? These
things are not forces that are created by him, but are forces that attack his smooth work.


Further announcements were made by the National Minister of Welfare about more needy people that need to be paid soon. How are the finances of this Department expected to meet the
insurmountable demands that are faced by this Department? Just tell me.


Unemployment, HIV/AIDS, poverty, illiteracy are all national disasters that face every government and its population. Nobody should ever be proud of being a pioneer of liberation or democracy
when all these ills glare at us day in and day out. I am referring to the proponents and the claimants of democracy as if it can be a CC or privatised.


We will have to teach one another that democracy is a process, not an occasion. We will have to teach ourselves, in oneness, that democracy is another uphill that has its challenges. You
cannot do it alone. We cannot do it alone. That we must accept.


Hon members on the other side should stop pointing fingers at us on this side, claiming that their whites are better than our whites. Shame! What standards are we stooping to?


You find people saying the whites that are there with the IFP are this and that. Our whites that side are better. Just ask them, "Waar was jy during the time when this country was taken through
the barrel of a gun?" Which side of the gun were they, and which side of the gun were you? This time you exonerate them and find that they are better than your own brothers.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR W MCOYI: Better you deny it now, because nobody should ever be saying this at such a level.


THE SPEAKER: Order, hon member. Point of order. Hon member Mrs Gasa?


MRS F X GASA: On a point of order. Are we allowed to say, even though we can heckle, are we aloud to say uyahlanya. [you are crazy]. Is that parliamentary?


THE SPEAKER: If that is the case, hon member.


MRS F X GASA: That is the case. The hon Nkonyeni said uyahlanya and usaqhubeka. [The hon Nkonyeni said you are crazy and she still continues].
                                                                                                  3954


THE SPEAKER: Is that true, hon member Mrs Nkonyeni?


MRS F X GASA: Can she withdraw, please?


MRS N P NKONYENI: (Whip): That is not true. I never said that. You can check the Hansard. I never said that.


THE SPEAKER: Thank you. If that is the case, I will request the hon member to put the complaint formally. Continue, hon member, you are left with five seconds.


MR W MCOYI: The lady, the mere fact that she denies it, she does not like it.


THE SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. Before I call upon hon member Mrs Ambler-Moore, I will request members to remain today, because yesterday at our Executive Board meeting, I
was approached by members that I should try and find something for them for a Christmas party that will take place this afternoon. I therefore tried something as a result of that. So I formally
invite all members and staff members to the dinner and social evening, which will take place immediately after the adjournment.


I will then request hon member Mrs Ambler-Moore. You have five minutes.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MRS M AMBLER-MOORE: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to assure the House that I will not be talking about green flies, democracy or guns.


I would like to thank the hon Minister for a very comprehensive to the point short report, but quite depressing, too, and I found the ending very sad, and I will allude to it just now.


I would also like to take this opportunity of thanking the staff. On many occasions, I deal with the Welfare Department, and every time I am met with the utmost courtesy and helpfulness. I know
they are working under extreme conditions, short staffed and I just hope they have a good break over Christmas.


AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!


MRS M AMBLER-MOORE: There are a couple of concerns I have, Mr Minister. Firstly, and it has been alluded to by the hon Ludidi, of the 23% increase in Child Support Grants.


I know the Department strongly suspects that not all Child Support Grant applications are genuine, and that in fact children are being borrowed or passed around. I would like to ask the
Minister, what steps are being taken to find out if in fact somebody is fraudulently manufacturing birth certificates, and are clinic cards disappearing?
                                                                                                3955


Mr Minister, you referred to the increase in the awareness of the availability of grants due to the campaign being conducted by the National Department, but I think we really need to question if it
is only that.


The second concern that I have, and it has also been alluded to, is the 30% in six months increase in disability grants. When I sat down to analyse it, I realise that in the month of April those
who had been removed from the register were put back on in that month. So in fact, if you take that out of the equation, the increase has only been 12%.


We are, as a party, concerned about the assessment panels and the whole appeal system. At the time this amendment went through, the Democratic Alliance pointed out that this was wide
open to abuse, and if one analyses the composition of some of the assessment panels, the required skills are not always present.


I acknowledge, Mr Speaker, that there is now a socio-economic factor in the granting of disability grants, but I think we need to seriously question if in fact the increase is not abnormally high
and if the grantees are really disabled.


At the closing ceremony of the Premier's HIV/AIDS Indaba, and this was referred to in the Health debate, the Minister of Welfare referred, in his summing up to the fact that we need an
independent monitoring structure to co-ordinate the HIV/AIDS programme.


Shortly afterwards the Premier announced that he was setting up a section 21 company as alluded to by the hon Johnson in the Health debate. Mr Speaker, I am not going to comment on the
merits or otherwise of that section 21 company. I think we need to reflect on it. We need to analyse it more, but I do believe that we should do something similar for poverty alleviation.


It has been discussed so often in this House, and there are poverty alleviation projects all over this Province being done by practically every department. Some are even side by side, and many
of them are not sustainable.


We in the Democratic Alliance are of the opinion that we need a single body to co-ordinate poverty alleviation so that there is no duplication, that monies are spent wisely, that there is monitoring
and sustainability.


Millions of Rands are pumped into poverty alleviation programmes, and we owe it to the communities we serve and the taxpayers to ensure that those millions are spent wisely.


Mr Speaker, I will be so bold as to suggest that a Poverty Alleviation Portfolio Committee be set up in the next session of Parliament, and I would strongly urge that anybody here that is still
around then, hopefully I will be, will be looking at this seriously.


The Minister ended off by saying that because of this overspend, and it has been a very worrying overspend, the filling of vacancies has been put into abeyance, new poverty relief projects will
have to be suspended until next year, and new capital projects will only commence in the new financial year.
                                                                                                  3956


I think that is very sad, but I think the Minister has behaved in a responsible manner. I do not believe that the Department had any choice. I will finish what I have to say the next time I speak.
Thank you.


AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. The next member to deliberate is the hon member Mr B V Edwards. You have five minutes to do so.


MR B V EDWARDS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is a pleasure to follow on hon member Ambler-Moore. She gave criticism where it was warranted and made some very telling points.


The report of the hon MEC for Social Welfare, his midyear review, highlights with particular emphasis, the enormous demands being placed on the Department's budget during the current
financial year.


During the budget debates several members expressed extreme concern as to the dramatic increase in the 2003/2004 budget. The R7,944 billion total budget reflected an astounding increase
of R1,161 billion on 2002/2003, and the 17% increase reflected the highest increase in any vote and no doubt created severe pressures for other social services, like Health and Education.


The latest figures given the projections and reflecting that we will overspend this year's budget by nearly R1,3 billion, with possible adjustment, is thus alarming, to say the least. The hon
Minister, in his report, states that the allocation increase appears to be substantial, and so is this year's overspending.


Mr Speaker, not just substantial, but potentially crippling to this Province, we know the problems we faced before. We are facing another financial crisis. This is caused by the alarming increase
in social grants paid over budget in this financial year. Social grants constitute 93% of the Social Welfare Budget, and the growth in uptake of new grants this year is not just phenomenal, but
almost unbelievable.


Mr Speaker, I said in the budget debate earlier this year, the hon MEC Prince Gideon, has shown over the years that he is a caring Minister. I am being sincere. He has shown that he fully
understands the plight of the young, disabled, unemployed, elderly or those living in poverty. Perhaps he is too generous. The hon Minister has clearly pointed out the constitutional demands in
having to pay social grants.


When we budget for a monthly uptake of 15 000 new grants, and this has reached an unbelievable level now of over 35 000. Something is very wrong. Very wrong.


The hon MEC for Finance, Mr Miller of the IFP, expressed his alarm at the apparent liberal interpretation of disability without proper medical certification and the possible irregular payment of
these grants has grown from 161 884 in April this year, to 211 180 by September, an increase of 49 000 or 30% in six months. If it continues this year we will be up to 60% in a year.


Child support grants have increased from 687 221 to 842 500 over the same period, a 155 000 increase, or 23% in six months. This will be over 40% for the year at this rate. These statistics,
                                                                                                     3957


to me, not only sound warning bells but sirens of not only disastrous overspending, but also widespread fraud and corruption.


Both in the portfolio committee and the Finance Department in the midyear review, the Department was asked to furnish the committees with details of what the numbers of grants, particularly
new grants, were in each region of the Province.


But in spite of many promises from the Department, information has just not been forthcoming. Have the officials something to hide? Perhaps rumours of fraud and corruption are true.


Anecdotal evidence stated that disability grants are being incorrectly awarded to persons with HIV/AIDS. No other disability. Many medical certificates issued are false. A case was cited of a
certificate which stated that the grantee had only one leg. When the grant was collected, he had two legs. The same person, the same ID. Obviously totally false.


THE SPEAKER: A minute left.


MR B V EDWARDS: It is said that up to 50% of medical certificates are dubious. Anecdotal evidence also claims that as happened with the distribution of food parcels, of R65 million provided
by National Government. The bulk of distribution was in four rural districts only, when there is just as much poverty in urban townships.


Is it true that the same trend is happening in the case of social grants? What we need are the statistics requested that I noted earlier. I trust that the hon Minister will attend to providing this
information to this House. I believe we have a right to see it.


Also, it seems to the hon MEC there is evidence of fraud and corruption. An investigation using forensic auditors must be commenced. I appeal to the hon Minister to look at that.


To its credit, the Department is taking steps to curtail expenditure for the remaining part of the year, but it is not really satisfactory.


Filling of vacancies of staff have been put on hold, perhaps unwisely. Better controls are needed. Allocation of funds to new poverty relief projects under programme 4 has been suspended,
and capital projects held back. Sad, but this has been done. This will only be a drop in the ocean as 93% of the budget is spent on welfare grants. Thank you.


THE SPEAKER: The next member to deliberate is hon member Mrs Rajbansi for five minutes.


MRS S THAKUR-RAJBANSI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Hon members, the report given by the hon Minister of Welfare is pretty short for a department with such a huge over-expenditure.


The MF believes that the Department has focused on the key areas of over-expenditure and we fully agree with their analysis as well as their explanation of the cause, but we believe a lot more
can be done to solve the crisis.
                                                                                                3958


Grants have grown rapidly because we have burdened this Department by widening the net to HIV positive persons, AIDS orphans and distress relief grants. That is due to the time delays in
processing of grants, and I believe strongly that these extra factors have to be taken into account if we want this Department to be properly budgeted for.


I have always fought for the Child Support Grant to be increased to 18 years for deserving cases so that we can at least curb a lot of the other social ills that arise by denying children from 9 to
18 child support grants. We would not have these school dropouts, youth unemployment, drug addicts and dependence on a whole lot of other grants and institutions.


The Minority Front feels very strongly that the following recommendations should be taken on board:


1.       The Cash Paymasters Services should be able to give reports on payments which can be reconciled by the Department to curb over-expenditure due to administrative errors.


2.       The fact that awareness has created grant needs, then the Department needs to properly project their requirements for future budgets.


3.       The Department must take strong decisions with respect to curtailing fraud within and outside the Department and recover monies owing to them.


4.       The assessment panels that have been established should be reputable, they should have able people who can be trained to make proper decisions on grants and appeals, because I
         have reported to the Department that both in Phoenix and Chatsworth, these panels are touting for attorneys, at a minimal fee, to fast-track grants. This is fraudulent. The Department
         has confirmed that they are investigating this, but nothing has come of this investigation.


5.       Finally, I have always stressed that social workers employed by the Department should go out into the community, and they should do the home visits, they should check whether the
         people actually deserve the grants, the various family members who receive grants for one household, actually do deserve those grants.


It is the duty of these social workers to go and verify that. This Department has poached so many social workers from the private sector. I do not believe that this Department has a shortage of
social workers to do this kind of thing, so they are our hands and legs, to actually curb fraud and to do a good job for the Department.


With this I want to appeal to the Department to actually focus on their core functions, strategise, and work out their budget requirements with proper statistical information so that the people who
really deserve grants get the grants. Thank you.


THE SPEAKER: The next member to deliberate is the hon member Mrs Downs. You have three minutes to do so.


MRS J M DOWNS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I do not think I will take my three minutes. I will be very brief. We have a major overspend. I expressed my concern in the hearings that we had,
both in Public Accounts and Finance as to the process of re-instating the disability grant.
                                                                                                  3959


I really and truly believe that process is flawed. If medical personnel turn down people, and the committee puts them back, I really believe that we have a problem there.


The other major problem that I have is that it is almost impossible for community members who need to access social grants in terms of foster care grants. I have brought this up in the House
before, it is not a new matter. I have raised it with the Welfare Department and I have raised it with the regional managers and so on, and we are still battling.


When you have people looking after other people's children, and they want to apply for a foster care grant, you have to see a social worker, and you have to go through the court process.


For our rural poor people this is just about an impossible process, particularly when social workers are not willing to step out of their offices and assist communities. I believe this is an issue that
needs to be attended to. Thank you.


THE SPEAKER: Mr Qoma is not in the Chamber. I do not see the name of hon member Mr Slabbert on the Speaker's List. He has been left out.


MR J H SLABBERT: Mr Speaker, I am not speaking in this debate.


THE SPEAKER: Okay. Thank you, hon member. I will then call upon hon member Mrs Ambler-Moore for three minutes.


MRS M AMBLER-MOORE: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I just want to raise this concern. It is going to come to this House eventually. It is sitting at national at the moment. That is the South
African Social Security Agency Bill and the Social Assistance Bill.


Public Hearings have been held with one of these. I think that was the Social Assistance Bill. Mr Speaker, the public were only given a week to make submissions, and I think it has got
something to do with the pre-election stampede that we are witnessing now to try and get Bills through into Acts.


At the time the Minister assured the portfolio committee, and I am talking about national, that they were not rushing it, but an advert appeared in the Sunday Times for vacancies for project
manager, deputy director, etcetera, although the Minister said that was just for research people.


It is worrying that these two Bills are being pushed through Parliament without what I believe due process. I believe Parliament and national should be discussing them at great length because
of the financial implications and because of the people it affects. It should be coming to the Provinces for us to deliberate on, and I sincerely hope that sanity prevails, and that they are not
pushed through.


Mr Speaker, the hon Edwards raised the question of food parcels. I think we are fortunate in this country to have a Minister like Minister Skweyiya. He is a caring person. He has been
described as somebody who cares about orphans. The Mail & Guardian described him as the point man against poverty, and I believe he has done a lot for social security in this country. He
has done a lot for us.
                                                                                                 3960




But, I really am concerned, when I have a young man come into my office, he is a member of my party, he lives in Inanda, and he says to me, when are the DA going to come and give out food
parcels, because Minister Skweyiya was in KwaMashu last Thursday handing out food parcels. You had to show your ANC membership card before you got a food parcel.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MRS M AMBLER-MOORE: Now, whether it was ANC money or my money that was used, I do not know, and Mr Speaker we will never know.


THE SPEAKER: There is a point of order, hon member. Hon member, Dr Radebe, what is your point of order?


DR B M RADEBE: It is a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask that the member withdraw that statement that whoever was given a food parcel was supposed to produce an ANC card.


As a Christian, Mrs Ambler-Moore, it is wrong for her to lie in this House. I want her to withdraw that.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mrs Ambler-Moore, are you prepared to withdraw that?


MRS M AMBLER-MOORE: Mr Speaker, I have a problem. I am relating what happened in my office. A young man came into my office and he told me this story. I think whether it is ANC or
IFP money that was used, or my money, I do not know. I am telling you this young man came into my office and told me that.


THE SPEAKER: Continue, hon member.


MRS M AMBLER-MOORE: Thank you, Mr Speaker. What really worries me is those rural areas are presidential nodes set up by President Thabo Mbeki. He has instructed that monthly food
parcels go to those rural areas. They are called presidential nodes. President means Mr Mbeki. So please do not blame the Department because they are carrying out the instructions of the
National Minister.


THE SPEAKER: Order hon member Radebe!


MRS M AMBLER-MOORE: Mr Speaker, it is time we read the Taylor Report and took it seriously. The Taylor report supports what my party supports, the basic income grant. It has some
very good suggestions, and I would honestly ask my colleagues on the right here to speak to your colleagues nationally. You appointed the commission, you had a fine woman running it. Take
what she said seriously, because she did a fine job. I thank you.
                                                                                                   3961




HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: The next member to deliberate is hon member Mrs Gasa. You have ten minutes to do so.


MRS F X GASA: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to participate. We have no problem in identifying ourselves with the report as tabled by the Minister.


We could not have had a better Minister for this Department, and I am saying so because he is caring, a father and everything to his Department. Not just him, but also his staff.


I do not want this debate to be muddled, because the hon Mrs Ludidi started on a good tone, and if ever there is a department where there should not be any bickering, it is this particular
Department.


Lapha sikhuluma ngabantu abasemakhaya, sikhuluma ngoMnyango onomthwalo onsinsithekayo isinda ngendlela eyisimangaliso. [Here we are talking about people who are at home. We are
talking about the Department which is heavily laden].


I hate it when I pick up criticism. Good objective criticism, constructive criticism leads to more things that can be done in order to facilitate delivery.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MRS F X GASA: I am still saying that as long as we classify our Minister according to our own liking, we are missing the boat. We see the Minister of this Department going to rural
communities with his staff attending workshops. His staff are well-trained to look after us.


We see the tone of the Welfare Committee is a good one. If we now start showing our political ideals knowing we are better off, then we are missing the boat.


Mr Speaker, recently at the Premier's AIDS Indaba, we learnt much about the magnitude of the need in our beloved Province. Apart from the increase in population, and we are the most
densely populated province in South Africa, we have unemployment, AIDS, TB, cholera and malaria to contend with.


Furthermore, the caretakers of our children are dying at a frightening rate. Mhlawumbe kuyodinga sibuyele emuva sike sifundisane ukubane singabhekana kanjani nokuthi abantwana bethu
bangatholeli izingane ekhaya besithwesa umthwalo omkhulu phezu komunye umthwalo. Ngoba manje asizobheka lezingane ezitholelwe ekhaya kuphela sesibheka nabe-AIDS, sesibheka
nabashonelwe. Ngakho-ke yonke lento isemthwaleni waloMnyango.


TRANSLATION: Perhaps we will need to go back and teach one another how we can deal with the question of our children having extra-marital children and doubling up the load for us.
                                                                                                 3962


Because now we are not going to look after extra-marital children only. We also look after the AIDS victims and those whose people have passed away. Therefore all this is the burden of the
Department. T/E


With our own silly behaviour at times, we are burdening the Department even further. There are two things that worry me. Fraud - the Minister and his Department have tried to attend to it, but
there is no mechanism of finding out about the people lapha ngaphandle abathatha imali kuMnyango as a foster care grant. Ikakhulukazi laba abancanyana bahambe bayothola ingane bese
bethatha imali akasayiniki ingane ukudla useyidla nesoka elisha elingazange lizale kwanayo lengane. [Particularly the young ones who go out to get a child and then use the grant, not on the
child, but on themselves and the new boyfriend who is not the biological father of the child].


We need to look at these things, and we need to address them. We are part of the community. We see these things happening.


Ugogo athathe imali ngoba ubheka abazukulu, ebese ethumelela indodakazi yakhe ehleli kabuhlungu emshadweni. Uma zonke lezozinto zi-drainer uMnyango. Uma sesifika lapha bese
sikhala kakhulu engathi uMnyango ikhona into obungayenza.


Okwesibili, nampa abanye ogqadampekweni abaphuma from other Provinces kuyavuza ngale baphuma bezohola ngala imali engaqondene nabo. Bathathe imali yase-South Africa, cross
boarder.


AN HON MEMBER: Eyase-South Africa fanele nabo bayidle. [It is South African. They are also entitled to spend it].


MRS F X GASA: Cha uyabona angazi nokuthi uhlaleleni la ngoba angikubizanga ungazonginyomfa, ngikhuluma into ebalulekile angidlali mina. Angazi ukuthi uzofunani uzongixova nje.
[UHLEKO]


TRANSLATION: The granny takes the grant because she looks after the grandchildren and then sends money to her daughter whose married life has hit rock bottom. All these things drain off
the Department. Then when we get here we complain so much as if the Department could really do anything.


Secondly, there are shrewd crooks who come from other provinces, due to lack of proper control, they come and get the grant which is not due to them. They take the South African money and
cross the border.


Well, you see I do not know why you are sitting here because I did not call you. Do not slander me, I am talking serious stuff. I am not playing. I do not know why you slander me.
[LAUGHTER] T/E


It is therefore understandable that the Department of Social Welfare has exceeded its budget. Yes, it is true. As more and more children and adults qualify for grants, niyamangaza ninede
nibone umuntu ekhuluma into enengqondo bese nixova. Wena nje ungumholi wamakhosikazi lana eNdlini angazi ukuthi wenzani. [You are amazing. Once you see someone talking some
                                                                                                  3963


sense you interrupt. You are the leader of women in this House so I do not understand what you are doing].


MRS L A GCABASHE: UKUPHAZAMISA. [INTERJECTION].


MRS F X GASA: Cha kahle Lungi, kahle. [Just a moment Lungi, wait].


Although this may have produced something of a fiscal crisis, we need to remember that in human and humane terms we have to try to ameliorate the plight of our people. We cannot afford to
let anybody slip through our nets if we are to grow as a nation. One death caused by poverty is one too many.


In overspending on social needs, including giving much needed money to child welfare organisations, we are investing in real capital: human beings.


We know how difficult it is for the Province to find the necessary fiscus, as the whole country is filled with suffering people. However, we must also implement vigorous measures to contain the
abuse of grants and pensions as I illustrated earlier on.


We need to apply our minds to a system that will weed out those that are jeopardising the survival of the needy.


At the same time, one of the costs of this increase of providing for the indigent, old and sick, is that we will freeze employment in order to cut costs. This will have a deleterious effect on the
Department's ability to deliver these crucial services.


However, I believe we can come up with new ways to administer social welfare in this Province and to involve NGOs with outside funding to help us.


I also believe we can rationalise poverty relief projects. All departments concerned with these should get together and assess what is being done and how better it could be done if these
projects were co-ordinated, and multi-disciplinary. This, I think, is the only way ahead in order to render our services to poverty relief more effectively.


I really want to congratulate the Department on their honesty and for the thoroughness of their report. I hope that we can solve some of the problems in the next budget year.


I agree with my colleagues who feel that everybody has a responsibility. It is not only the Department of Welfare, but all of us collectively who are able to assist our people to be better off than
what they were before we were elected to this Parliament.


In all honesty, I would awuthandi ukujabula wedwa, uthanda ukuthi nalaba abakulethe lapha you must make sure ukuthi nabo bathokoze. Zikhona izindlela ziningi futhi noMnyango unezindawo
nezindawo sike simbone uMntwana nethimu yakhe ehamba enza - ngisho nayizolo ekuseni ubengeve emuhle uMntwana laphana nodado ebapha ewumkhulu ofudumele....
                                                                                            3964


THE SPEAKER: A minute left.


AN HON MEMBER: NoZola Skweyiya ubekhona. [And Zola Skweyiya was there].


MRS F X GASA: Angimbonanga awungiyeka wena. [UHLEKO] Angimbona uZola mina ngibone uMntwana wena ufuna ukungitshela ukuthi ngibone uSkweyiya ngapha ngingambonanga.
Cha uzonginyomfa nje uthunyiwe kanti anginyomfeki ntombazana, okubi ukuthi useduze kwami. Mina ngiyasho ukuthi sifanele ukusaphotha uMnyango, siyakuseka Ngqongqoshe wethu.
Emsebenzini ongaka owenza ungenamali, awuhlali nokuhlala ekhaya kodwa usuku nosuku usemgwaqeni engathi ungaqhubeka njalo nomndeni wakho sinifisela thina uKhisimusi omuhle.
Sikufisela ukuphumula okuhle abanye bayophumula abazange benze lutho wena you deserve ukuphumula ingempela. Unwele olude Ndabezitha!


TRANSLATION: You do not want to be happy alone, you want to make sure that those who brought you here too are happy. There are many ways and the Department has many, many
places and we would see the Prince and his team going around - even yesterday, the Prince was very smart when he was with small children and giving them - he was a warm grandpa...


I did not see him. Just leave me alone. [LAUGHTER] I did not see Zola but I saw the Prince. You want to tell me that I saw Skweyiya whereas I did not. You have been sent to upset me but I
am no easy target. It is bad because you are close to me. I am saying we must support the Department. We support you our Minister. You do enormous work with little money. You do not
stay at home day in and day out - you are on the road. We wish you a merry Christmas. We wish you a well deserved rest. Others are going to rest having done nothing and you really
deserve a rest. Long live Ndabezitha! T/E


THE SPEAKER: The next member is the hon member Miss Ludidi. You have seven minutes.


MISS Z M LUDIDI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. One of the factors that leads to over-expenditure is Cash Paymaster Services. In their service level agreement they promised so many things
which have not been effected. One of these is the improvement of pay points. The Department had to build offices for these pay points.


At some pay points they pay three areas a day. This happens largely in the vast rural areas. People have to wait for the whole day because they do not know when the Cash Paymaster car will
come as they cannot be informed for security reasons.


Where they wait in order to be paid there is no water, food or shelter, or if it is close to a shop, they are forced to ask the shop owner for isikweleti or even abantwana laba abathengisayo
babaphe ukudla [for debt or even give food to children that sell] while they are waiting.


What is the CPS doing to improve these conditions on behalf of the Department?


Another major factor that contributes to these conditions is the staff, both from the Department and CPS. One woman who was sick and had been for quite some time, had nothing to live on
and applied for the disability grant. She was accepted. She had to come and check now and then, while she was living on food supplied to her by her neighbours.
                                                                                               3965




One MP went to check what the delay was, only to find that the application had not been sent to the regional office. No explanation was given. This was after having waited for longer than six
months. One week later the poor woman borrowed 60 cents from her neighbour to go to the clinic, and there she died.


Maybe she could have lived longer had she enough food which could have been provided by the Department. The Department should pay one large amount instead of instalments that could
relieve the Department from over-expenditure.


Last week in Chatsworth one woman was arrested while she was waiting in the queue for fraudulently receiving the payment. She is a Ndlovu relative and she gets plus minus R2 000. That is
how she was identified.


This is not an outside job. The only people who could master this are the internal people. How much does this contribute to the crisis of over-expenditure?


One other factor that is contributing is the control measures of social relief vouchers for the recovery of such monies. At the moment the SOCPEN is unable to help us recover such money.
How much do we spend on these unrecovered amounts? Since SOCPEN is the National Department's baby, let them take over all these debts.


There are other vultures, like shop owners, who charge people for their social relief vouchers. They charge people more money, because they say changing the vouchers into cash is
expensive. For instance, if the bread is R4, people will pay R5 and so on. If impuphu [maize meal] costs R22 they would pay R30. But fortunately the Department ...


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! Kanti ubani lona obanga umsindo. Qhubeka dadewethu. [Who is it that is making a noise. Proceed hon member].


MISS Z M LUDIDI: The Department, at the moment, is looking into this. One of the measures to be taken to curb the delay of the applications is for those ignorant people to pay for the delayed
applications. I thank you, Mr Speaker.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: The next is the hon Minister to reply to the debate. You have 15 minutes to do so.


PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development): Mr Speaker, I think you will agree with me that the time allocated to me to respond to this debate is not
enough.


Hon members of Parliament, after listening to all the arguments about the report that I tabled in the House, I would like to make the following remarks:
                                                                                                3966


No final decision has been taken by the Constitutional Court with regard to the transfer of the social grants' function to the National Department. Thus far no negotiations have taken place
between the National and Provincial Governments on these issues. We just get it from hearsay.


As a Provincial Government we will continue to implement our functions as provided for in the Constitution of our country.


I was really disturbed by a statement which was made regarding a women's programme. In fact, the statement made was, I repeat, mischievous and malicious to the extreme, and devoid of the
truth. The statement is a direct contradiction of the article that was published in the Sunday Times of 9 November 2003.


The article answers all questions which were raised by the Finance Portfolio Committee, and highlights the positive impact of the programme.


I repeat, we are the Department of Social Welfare and Population Development. We have got to rid our communities of poverty.


The White Paper on Social Welfare advocates for a shift from traditional social work practices to developmental social welfare. As a result, the Departments of Social Welfare, countrywide,
have been involved in developmental programmes aimed at building capacity for their clients in order to attain self-reliance.


It is therefore, in this context, that my Department is implementing poverty alleviation initiatives. I am told I am spending money unnecessarily.


They are relevant to the core functions of the Department whose vision is to beat poverty and for sustainable development. The programme targets, women with children below the age of 15
years, as women and children are important groups targeted by my Department.


It is very important for the members of the House to note that funds in my Department which includes the programme in question, were approved by the Legislature of KwaZulu-Natal by the
Appropriation Act for the 2003/2004 financial year.


A developmental approach is utilised in the process of planning and implementing poverty alleviation projects. The main emphasis is on building the participants' capacity for decision-making,
problem-solving and income generation.


The emphasis is also on changing the participants' attitude of powerlessness and helplessness, and instilling hope and feelings of control about the future.


Regarding the issue of building office accommodation throughout the Province, I feel that undue criticism is being levelled against my Department. I would like to point out that it is difficult to
operate from a hired office. Proper offices are required so that we can serve our people with dignity.


By providing the infrastructure, we are also taking the services of my Department closer to the people. That is why it is vitally important that my Department should provide the infrastructure that
                                                                                                 3967


will make it possible for us to deliver good quality service to our people.


When this Department came into being after the new dispensation, there were no offices of our own, as we operated from the offices of the departments of Justice and Health.


It is surprising and disturbing that certain members of this Legislature go about disseminating distorted information about the performance of my Department. As to what that is, only God
knows.


The track record of my Department speaks for itself, as it is nationally regarded as one of the best departments compared to similar departments in the other eight provinces of the country. I
therefore call upon all the members of this House to give credit where it is due.


People are worried about the high intake of grants. It is a statutory requirement that grants be paid to qualifying pensioners. If there is anybody who says I should stop paying the grants, they
must tell me how to go about it, because if a pensioner qualifies for the grant and I do not pay it, then there is litigation, and end up paying more money.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development): There are many factors that give rise to the high intake of grants. Regulation 11 was removed, which meant
pensioners should be paid from their date of application instead of the date of acceptance.


The question of AIDS. AIDS is engulfing our country, and we have got to pay them grants.


There is the question of the Child support grant. I admit fraudulent cases. We have arrested some of them who obtained fraudulent grants.


Another thing I want to mention is what Mrs Gasa said, we are sharing our budget with foreign countries like Mozambique, Swaziland and Lesotho, with foreign provinces like the Eastern Cape.


I was down at Ezinqoleni the other day, and I got the message clearly that the Eastern Cape people flood our offices in order to get access to our grants.


The people of Swaziland have our identity books, because when the boundaries were decided on, people went to the other side with our ID books, and it is not my job to solve that. It is the
National Government that should do that.


I want to say also that there are members of this House that assist people from Swaziland in obtaining IDs from our Home Affairs. IDs and birth certificates. There are people in this House.
Ukuthi igama lomuntu liyadula libiza ishumi lezimpondo, ngabe ngiyamgaklaza. [A person's name is expensive - it costs 10, otherwise I would have mentioned that person].
                                                                                            3968


We have arrested people from Swaziland, and they were released njengoba kade esho udadewethu lona omunye lapha ethi imali yase-South Africa laba abayidlayo. [as the other hon member
was saying here that it is South African money that they are spending].


When the census is taken, those people are not counted on our side, and yet they share in our budget.


Ngakho-ke angizovuma abantu bakhulume umbozo. Sithathe emaBhunwini akade ephethe izwe ngakho-ke esikwenzayo sigqiba izisele ezavulwa yibo abangazange bazihluphe ngokuhlonipha
isithunzi somuntu oMnyama. Yebo angisezukukhuluma kakhulu ngabo ngoba sisibagonile sebengo-comrade nabo. [UHLEKO]


Ngakho-ke ngiyafisa ukuthi kwazeke ukuthi laba abathi sakha amahhovisi amaningi angadingeki umbedo lowo. Amahhovisi siyawadinga ukuze isithunzi somuntu oMnyama sigqame,
singasebenzeli phansi kwezihlahla. Ngiyafisa futhi ukusho ukuthi siyoqhubeka siwakhe futhi amahhovisi. Kade ngilivula nje ngoMsombuluko mhla lulunye kuDisemba 2003 igama lalo
uZulumbukeni, igama lalo uSalabekhuluma.


Ngakho-ke abasiyeke abantu, akasiyeke uHulumeni ePitoli ukusonisa. Akayeke uHulumeni wasePitoli ukuzokupha ama-food parcels la uMnyango ukhona engaxoxisani noMnyango. Akayeke
ngoba ukuxova lokho, akayeke ukugijima aye lapha eNdlunkulu ayokhohlisa abantu sikubona kahle lokho ukuthi umthombo wokuzuza amavoti. Abantu baKwaZulu abayizona izithutha bayazi
ukuthi bameleni, bayazi ukuthi ubani obasizayo. Ngakho-ke asinakubanjiswa okwenkukhu iphoselwa uhlamvu lombila, ngoba asizona izinkukhu.


ONgqongqoshe basePitoli bangena la badavuze kulelizwe ngaphandle kokukhuluma nathi.


AN HON MEMBER: UKUPHAZAMISA. [INTERJECTION].


PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development): What you are saying is nonsense, imali yomphakathi le, imali yabantu le akusiyo imali yabo, akusiyo imali
yoyise. Ngakho-ke Somlomo Baba ngicela abantu babuyele emqondweni yabo bakhulume izinto njengoba zinjalo, ayi ukushaya impithimpithi. Ngiyabonga.


TRANSLATION: Therefore I am not going to allow people to talk nonsense. We have taken over from the Boers who had been running the country and what we are doing at the moment is,
we are closing gaps opened by them, who never bothered to respect the dignity of a black person. Indeed I am not going to talk much about them because we have embraced them. They are
also comrades. [LAUGHTER]


Therefore I wish to say that those who allege we are building many unnecessary offices are talking nonsense. We do need offices to uphold and preserve the dignity of a black person, we do
not have to work from under trees. I also wish to stress that we will continue to build offices. I opened it on Monday 1 December 2003. Its name is Zulumbukeni; its name is Salabekhuluma.


Therefore people must leave us alone, the government in Pretoria must desist from interfering. The Pretoria Government must stop giving out food parcels without consulting the Department.
It must stop that because that is a recipe for disaster. It must refrain from running to the Royal House and misleading people there. That is electioneering. The people of KwaZulu are not
                                                                                                     3969


morons. They know what they stand for. They know who helps them. Therefore we cannot be tricked like a chicken when a mealie grain is thrown to it, for we are not chickens.


The Ministers from Pretoria traverse and loiter around in this land without consulting us.


What you are saying is nonsense - this is public money - this is people's money, not theirs, not their father's. Therefore Mr Speaker, I ask that the people should come back to their senses and
report things as they are. Not tell rigmaroles. I thank you. T/E


THE SPEAKER: Thank you. We will then move to item 8.7, the report by the hon Minister of Economic Development and Tourism, hon Mr Burrows.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


8.7       REPORT: THE MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND TOURISM IN TERMS OF RULE 10(2)


MR R M BURROWS: (Minister of Economic Development and Tourism): Thank you, Mr Speaker. This report presents a snapshot of a long list of activities with which the Ministry and
Department have been busy with over the last quarter. One of them has been a marketing expedition abroad.


A delegation of representatives from the Ministry, the Department of Economic Development and Tourism, Tourism KwaZulu-Natal, Ithala, Trade and Investment KwaZulu-Natal and KZN
Wildlife, accompanied by the Minister of Finance, recently returned from a trade and tourism trip to Hungary, which was organised in response to an invitation from the South African
Ambassador to Hungary, Romania and Croatia. 47 meetings were held and important connections creating possibilities for future interactions with Hungary which could prove mutually
beneficial to the citizens of KwaZulu-Natal and Hungary have been established. Hungary at present enjoys significant development funding from the European Union, and as it will become a full
member country of the European Union, as of 1 May 2004, the Free Trade Agreement, which is already in place between South Africa and the European Union will open up broad possibilities
for future trade with Hungary at all levels.


With regard to the two items of draft Legislation, the Consumer Protection Bill and the KwaZulu-Natal Liquor Licensing Bill, and following on extensive public comment on the Liquor Licensing
Bill received by the Department, it was felt that when this Legislation is tabled before the House, it should be accompanied by a detailed set of regulations. All indications are, unfortunately, that
it will not be possible for the Bills to be ready by the close of this Parliament, so they will be held over for a later date.


The Department's Agribusiness Directorate is in the process of considering a business plan for a Perishable Trade Management Office, which is envisaged for ownership and management by
farmers, particularly small farmers, and would facilitate logistics for the export of cut flowers, fresh fish, vegetables and fruit from Durban International Airport.


Organic farming associations have been established in partnership with local and other provincial government departments and marketing opportunities within the commercial sector have been
sourced. Honey farmers, in partnership with Mondi Forests and SiyQhubeka Forests have been established, and beneficiaries of this project are operating in Nyalazi, Port Dunford and
                                                                                                3970


Melmoth.


Beneficiaries have been trained in organic herb production in partnership with commercial farmers and Local and Provincial Government. Bulk markets have been found locally for the perfume,
as well as for the cosmetics export industry. These projects have also been implemented in partnership with local Amakhosi.


An empowerment procurement and marketing company for indigenous natural remedies has been developed as part of a partnership with traditional healers, black entrepreneurs and
commercial pharmaceutical drug companies.


The first 20 out-growers from the Department's heliconias project have been trained for supply to the central hub at the Zululand Chamber of Business Foundation. These cut flowers will be
exported to Russia. In addition, the Directorate is involved in a chilli puree initiative and several projects relating to the Open Pan Sugar Mill which are being run in partnership with the iLembe
District. A pilot fruit orchards project is getting under way within the Zululand District.


The overall efforts of the Department's sector and business development unit are mainly directed at the development of a coherent and effective support service for emerging entrepreneurs,
promoting their access to finance and facilitating access by SMMEs to markets and other business opportunities.


The Local Business Services Centres and Manufacturing Advisory Centres, of which we are proud to announce we have four, unlike Gauteng's one, remain the key vehicles for providing
assistance to emerging entrepreneurs.


Working with the CSIR and local municipalities, development and training at these centres is proceeding well. The four MAC offices in Durban, Pietermaritzburg, Richards Bay and Port
Shepstone, continue to provide support to small and medium businesses seeking access to export opportunities.


Through the various interventions of the MAC programme, a total of 20 468 jobs have been sustained within SMME business whilst some 1 119 jobs were created.


The Department has been active in promoting a culture of entrepreneurship among the youth with a number of initiatives undertaken to facilitate access by youth to business opportunities.


I might say, Mr Speaker, that it has been one of my concerns that we have, in this country, one of the lowest entry groups amongst young people going into business of any emerging country in
the world, and it is particularly because we do not have an entrepreneurial climate amongst our young people who want to set up businesses and make a profit. We do not have it.


Working with other stakeholders in promoting youth entrepreneurship across the Province, the initiative to establish a business incubator focusing on young entrepreneurs is at an advanced
stage with suitable premises having been identified in the eThekwini Municipality area.


The initiative to develop an emporium to promote arts and other cultural products of the Province is still under way with the Department currently finalising a business plan. Some 40 craft and
                                                                                                3971


art workers are currently involved in discussions with the Department.


The Department and the CSIR are facilitating the establishment, and this is hard to believe, because you will not believe that we have never had one, a bead manufacturing facility in South
Africa here in this Province. At the present moment we import all our beads from the Czech Republic at enormous cost, and it is utterly crazy. The estimated cost of this project is R4 million,
and it is aimed at empowering historically disadvantaged groups, particularly women who have been involved in the bead manufacturing industry.


The Department has engaged the CSIR to conduct a study on the identification of SMME opportunities around the leather and footwear industry in the greater Msunduzi area and other parts of
the Province, and is expected to be completed in May 2004.


In terms of Black Economic Empowerment and in line with the South African Constitution which makes provision for the achievement of equality, not only political but economic and social
equality, this Department has recently honoured those in the black business sector who have achieved success, and those in the corporate sector who have contributed mightily to
empowerment.


The uMyezane awards is an initiative of the Department which gave recognition to those role models of business and enterprise who embrace this spirit of empowerment.


Ithala recently received the prestigious Progressive Company of the Year Award at the awards dinner of the KwaZulu-Natal region of the Black Management Forum. The award is made each
year to the organisation that best fulfils black economic empowerment ideals.


Ithala Ltd, which is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Ithala Development Finance Corporation, and is responsible for the savings and home loan activities, recently achieved a most significant
milestone in registering savings of an incredible R1 billion. This is especially laudable as Ithala targets historically disadvantaged savers in rural areas through its 40 branches. Many of these
people have never previously operated a savings account and have little in the way of money to save, but there is no doubt that Ithala is fulfilling a critical role in meeting the niche banking
needs of the previously unbanked.


An innovative agreement was signed between Ithala and the Development Bank of South Africa during November. This has opened the door to fast-track development in KwaZulu-Natal
through a capital boost of R100 million and access to grant funds to cover the vital non-recoverable developmental costs associated with providing technical assistance at the emerging end of
Ithala's market. Access to this grant funding is going to ensure Ithala's competitive edge is still further honed, maximising its already impressive development delivery track record in KZN.


Trade and Investment KwaZulu-Natal was involved in a partnership with the Durban Chamber in attending a small business expo called Small Business Overdrive 2003, held in Port
Elizabeth. A group of SMMEs were taken to the Nelson Mandela Metro to showcase their products and services. The exhibition was an excellent opportunity for exposure and the creation of
business contacts and business ventures. It was also a learning exercise for SMMEs.


TIK have also, during the course of last month, had visiting delegations from Uganda, Thailand, Taiwan, California and the People's Republic of China, all of which promise greater investments
                                                                                                 3972


in this Province.


Tourism KwaZulu-Natal recently released research on the nature and extent of the Province's foreign tourism market in the first six months of the year. Whilst registering a 3% decline from
2002 which is likely to have been the result of the war in Iraq, or the effects of the SARS epidemic, it is encouraging that the figures for 2003 are still a marked improvement from those achieved
in 2000 and 2001.


At least 15,5% of the South African foreign land arrival market visited KwaZulu-Natal, bringing the total number of foreign visitors to the Province to about 560 000.


Mr Speaker, the impact of tourism cannot be underestimated and it is more evident when one considers consumer expenditure. The foreign air arrival component was estimated to be worth as
much as R2,9 billion in the first six months of this year, while that for the land arrival market was about R2 billion. In total the Province's foreign market for this period was worth in the order of
R4,9 billion in terms of direct tourism expenditure.


It is worth noting that we are discovering a very significant increase in shopping purchases made by both air and land arrivals in the Province. People are spending a lot more in purchases,
which is very good.


Charter flights to Durban continue to bring tourists to the Province with the Thomas Cook Germany charters having landed at Durban Airport, commencing on November 5. From January,
seven charters will fly into KwaZulu-Natal once a week from Hungary, and a series of British charters are also expected next year as part of a deal signed with CT2 Holidays and Tourism
KwaZulu-Natal. The German charter flights alone are estimated to bring in excess of R188 million to the South African economy.


I am pleased to say that the ICC is to host the Durban Africa Route Development Conference in May next year. This will be hosted by the ACSA, and the purpose of the conference is to bring
together all airlines and airports in Africa to explore commercial opportunities amongst themselves.


The KwaZulu-Natal Philharmonic Orchestra continued its 20th anniversary celebrations with the World Symphony Series Spring Season which ended last week. Audiences have enjoyed
works played by world renowned soloists, together with popular local stars such as Lara Jones and the Drakensberg Boys' Choir.


For the past decade the KZN Philharmonic has offered a comprehensive Education and development programme. It has highly successful residencies in rural communities and townships
throughout KwaZulu-Natal. They have been extensively documented and coverage has been flighted nationally on television.


Through this programme the orchestra has provided performance opportunities for hundreds of musicians through the KZN Chorale, workshops for choral conductors and the National Youth
Creative Arts Festival, as well as the annual KZNPO Youth Concerto Festival.


During the past year visits were made to Vryheid, Ulundi, eMondlo and Stanger. The orchestra also initiated a National Cadetship Programme designed to harness promising orchestra players.
                                                                                                  3973




The Natal Sharks Board recently hosted a workshop which provided a unique opportunity for 28 shark researchers from seven African countries to pool their knowledge. As many of our
sharks are widely distributed along the African coast and they do not observe national boundaries, this workshop will undoubtedly lead to greater interaction and co-operation among shark
researchers in the SADC region.


As a direct spin-off of this international co-operation the Sharks Board will extend its whale shark surveys in Mozambique, with the support and blessing of the Mozambique authorities. Funding
is to come from international conservation sources.


This programme results out of concerns at the paucity of whale sharks along the KwaZulu-Natal coastline. The concern is that the fins of the whale shark, which is a basking shark and
harmless to humans, fetch a huge premium on the Asian markets and finning could be a contributory factor in their decline.


I am sorry, Mr Speaker, that our colleague, the hon Mr Hamilton, is not here since I am about to give some more news on the Dube TradePort and the King Shaka International Airport. I will
pass the news on to him in his sick bed.


The project has reached a significant milestone with the feasibility study now reaching completion. The study, undertaken using the rigour of international best practice, essentially shows that
the project is indeed feasible if implemented as a public-private partnership, as we have done for the Inkosi Albert Luthuli Hospital, and as is being done for the Coega Port and the Gautrain.


The feasibility tested three scenarios in terms of delivering best value for money for government. These were:


1.       Immediate implementation of the full Dube TradePort, that is building the King Shaka International Airport as well as the surrounding trade zone and the cyberport simultaneously.


2.       A phased approach where we first build the trade zone and then three years later build the airport.


3.       Not build anything, not do anything and remain at Durban International Airport.


Those are the scenarios. The economic cost benefit analysis reveals that the first option, that is the immediate implementation of the full Dube TradePort, including the King Shaka International
Airport, will deliver the best benefit for government and is most attractive in terms of the private sector investment.


AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!


MR R M BURROWS: (Minister of Economic Development and Tourism): This option will deliver more than 21 000 direct construction jobs over a three-year period, plus about 16 000
permanent jobs being created through the project. More important though is the fact that the relocation of the airport from its existing site opens up a significant piece of prime land next to the
                                                                                                  3974


port, with many options for its development.


The study has also shown that the release of that existing airport land can stimulate the creation of a further 80 000 direct construction jobs, as well as an estimated 80 000 indirect jobs.


Although the final financial model for the implementation of the project is still to be finalised, the application for Treasury 1 approval is to be submitted by February 2004. The master planning for
the airport and the trade zone has started, and work on a Black Economic Empowerment charter to guide the project is about to commence.


It has been proposed and accepted by Cabinet that a Cabinet Task Team consisting of the Provincial Ministers of Economic Development and Tourism, Transport, Finance, Works and
Education, be immediately established with a corresponding technical team of heads of departments to guide this important phase. Multi-party, you might notice.


Further details on progress will be released early in the first quarter of next year, save to say that we are very encouraged by the enormous support this project, the first of its kind in Africa, is
receiving from local stakeholders, particularly local producers of perishable goods and automotive component exports, as well as international economists, including the World Bank, who say
that this East Coast logistics platform will put South Africa onto the world map in terms of connectivity to the global supply chain.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MR R M BURROWS: (Minister of Economic Development and Tourism): Work with regard to preparation for the implementation of the 330 million Euro Local Economic Development
programme has progressed well. Together with the European Commission the Department has contracted capacity for the Interim Programme Management Unit which will lay the ground for
the full programme which should kick off in April 2004.


In each of the four district learning areas, Umgungundlovu, Uthungulu, Ugu and Umkhanyakude, the local stakeholders are joining forces to strategise to identify the economic strategies which
the programme will be seeking to implement. This, too, is exciting, as it shows that this Department is not only pursuing the blue-sky technological solutions to building the economy, but is also
focused on local development and locally driven partnerships. It is at the local level where capacity is needed, and where jobs can be created.


In conclusion, Mr Speaker and hon members, let me add to what I have written here to say that a number of senior posts in the Department have been advertised in the past half year, have
been interviewed and will be filled either before the end of the year or very early in the new year.


This Department has been fairly severely depleted in terms of its management and staff, and we look forward to seeing new members joining us in the very near future.


Mr Speaker, the economy in our country and Province has shown a resilience and strength which has surprised everyone. The declining interest rates and we note that there are projections
that they may decline again, a percentage and a half next week, the ever-strengthening rand offer hopes of a better festive season for many wage earners and this is thanks to the fact that our
macro-economic fundamentals have been successful.
                                                                                                 3975




But, and it is a very big but, the pain that goes with restructuring of labour-intensive industries and the effect of the strong rand on our exports means that many people, unfortunately, will not be
having the happiest festive season, as retrenchments in clothing, textile, leather and furniture sectors and sugar, which is now also threatened, continue.


We need to return in the new year with a renewed commitment and energy to do much more than we have in the past to address these complex challenges, particularly the problem with having
growth without increase in employment. It is a major problem, and being experienced all over the world. We have to address it here.


The key to addressing these challenges is co-operation and co-ordination. As government we are a major role player in the economy, but we need more and better partnerships with the private
sector and with all communities to allow more people of our Province to be able to have a Christmas and New Year filled with the fruits of successful labour and a good job. I thank you.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Minister. We then move to item 8.8, debate on Public Accounts Resolutions.


Before I do that, I would like to make this announcement. Members of the Standing Committee on Discipline and Ethics are hereby advised of a special meeting with the Commissioner of
Members' Interest scheduled as follows:


         Place:    Friday, 5 December.
         Time:     During the lunch adjournment.
         Venue: ANC Caucus Room.


Thank you. To start the debate I will call upon hon Mr Ngidi on behalf of Mr A J Hamilton, for ten minutes.


8.8      DEBATE: PUBLIC ACCOUNTS RESOLUTIONS


MR S B NGIDI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. If you put an H, it will read Mr Ngidi Hobo A J Hamilton. [LAUGHTER]


It gives me pleasure to speak in support of the tabled Resolutions of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. The committee has had a very productive year, which has seen us complete
all departmental hearings by 28 November 2003.


The fact that we have completed our work in terms of the best practice as contained in the Public Finance Management Act is due to a number of factors. One of these is an increase in the
frequency of meeting slots to as many as four per week.
                                                                                                 3976




We also decided that we would restrict departmental briefings or hearings to one large department per session, or two smaller ones, which meant that each department was completed at the
end of the session, thus avoiding, almost entirely, the need for carry-overs to other meeting dates, which invariably led to rehashing of decisions because of the changed compositions of the
committee as a result of some of the members having other committee meetings to attend.


The Standing Committee on Public Accounts has also introduced a new system for dealing with proposed Resolutions, which are now done with the help of a speed typist an in situ printer, and
the presence of a legal advisor, Resolutions are now drawn up after discussion, and interrogations on each point raised in the Auditor-General's report as it is completed. Resolutions are then
circulated as they are completed and approved by the full committee.


We have also introduced the concept of each Head of Department addressing the committee informally before the commencement of the hearing where they are able to raise any issues which
they wish to draw to the attention of the committee.


We have introduced a new procedure where the Head of Department is asked to give explanations on each point raised by the Auditor-General before being interrogated by the committee. All
these innovations have proved effective and efficient.


Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to report that progress is at last being made regarding the appointment of a full-time analyst/researcher, who will report directly to the Chairman of SCOPA
and the committee.


In this regard a small sub-committee consisting of myself, the Auditor-General and a Human Resources Manager have been appointed, the task of which the committee is to finalise the job
description and criteria for this new post, whereafter a suitable candidate will be head-hunted, and probably contracted for a period of one year, to ensure suitability before joining the
parliamentary staff component.


Madam Speaker, it is hoped that an appointment can be made before the end of Parliament so that the new incoming committee is able to hit the ground, running. Suitable staff are also going
to be needed, as well as an IT system with work flow tracking, scanning and filing capabilities. An IT system which appears to have all these capabilities is the "I Work to Manage System".


Madam Speaker, the duties of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts have now expanded to include all public entities as well as local authorities where problems have been identified, so
the introduction of a proper staffing component and IT system will allow the committee to effectively tackle the increasing workload in the future and react speedily to problems. The new
structure will allow the committee to increasingly interact with the Auditor-General's office.


One of the problems that have resulted from the modus operandi used in Public Accounts up till now, is that departments were brought in once per year for hearings, and not seen again until
the following year. This made compliance and monitoring very ineffective. In order to overcome this weakness, the committee has decided to hold two additional compliance progress hearings
for each department during the course of the year, and we are confident that much more efficient implementation of remedial measures will follow.
                                                                                              3977




Madam Speaker, in conclusion I would like to say how much credit goes to all members of the committee who, through their conscientious application, have made it possible to complete our
work for the first time in the current year.


I would further like to express my appreciation to all members of the committee for their commitment to keeping party political issues to an absolute minimum, which has resulted in sober debate
and constructive Resolutions.


The same appreciation must be extended to the committee staff, to the Auditor-General and his staff, and last, but not least, to the Department themselves. I wish them all a joyous Christmas,
and a New Year filled with health, happiness, success and fulfilment. I thank you, Madam Speaker.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. I shall now call upon the hon member, Mrs B Scott, to deliberate for nine minutes.


MRS B SCOTT: Madam Speaker, hon members, the tomb of Resolutions before us is a clear reflection on the state of financial management, or more aptly, mismanagement, in KwaZulu-
Natal. I am afraid, hon members, the rot starts at the top.


Vote 1, Office of the Premier, should be setting an example to the rest of the Province. Despite the gross misrepresentation by the hon Aulsebrook in his sycophantic support, as the de facto
spokesperson of the Premier's Department in this House the other day, let me put the record straight.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat. I would like to know what the hon member is rising on.


MR J F AULSEBROOK: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order on whether it is parliamentary to refer to a member as being sycophantic.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon member, let me just say that we will make the ruling tomorrow. We will investigate it. Please continue.


MRS B SCOTT: Far from the exemplary picture of good governance painted by hon Aulsebrook, the hon Premier oversees three departments: his own office, RDP and the Royal Household,
and of these RDP received a qualified audit.


Let us turn to the main department, the Office of the Premier, on which the Auditor-General has devoted no less than six pages of emphasis of matter.


The most serious exposure relates to the gross mismanagement of aviation services, and in answer to hon Aulsebrook, no, in the opinion of the majority of the members of SCOPA, there is a
                                                                                                 3978


total lack of sound financial management and administration.


In the 2002/2003 financial year, R19,444 million was appropriated to aviation services. Of that a massive 23% or R4,5 million worth of unpaid vouchers were hidden in the Ulundi Airport
manager, Mr Boucher's, drawer. A fact that remained unnoticed by the Department until Boucher's untimely, but certainly not unwelcome to the ANC, early retirement.


So are we to believe that there are controls in place where no one notices that 23% of the budget has not been spent and is unaccounted for? The hon Aulsebrook needs to brush up on his
spin-doctoring skills.


There are other serious questions regarding aviation services in KwaZulu-Natal. The number of provincial aircraft and their use needs urgent investigation. Expensive planes are flying empty to
collect hon MECs to take them to Cabinet meetings in Ulundi, despite the fact that only one of the 11 MECs resides in Ulundi. This constitutes a scandalous waste of taxpayers' money.


Further into the Auditor-General's report on vote 1, it is stated, and I am going to quote the AG:


          Some key and other controls were either poor or non-existent, and that management supervision and control was found to be inadequate. As a result thereof, controls implemented
          were not always adequately monitored to ensure that they operated as designed and that delegated responsibilities had been properly discharged. This reflects serious weaknesses in
          internal controls. These weaknesses need to be urgently addressed in order that the hon Premier can indeed boast of good governance.


I want to move to Resolution 92/2003. In this regard the ANC heartily welcomes the clarity obtained from the National Department of Public Service and Administration regarding State and
other housing. The clarity given is that unless an employee is compelled to occupy State housing under specific circumstances, staff will need to pay market-related rentals.


It is hoped that this clarity will put an end to what can only be considered a highly inequitable and unjust situation, whereby staff in Ulundi pay a monthly rent of up to a maximum of R200, while
State employees elsewhere in the Province are paying market-related rentals.


Once again Provincial SCOPA has expressed its grave concern and dissatisfaction with the consistent breach by Provincial Departments that after nearly ten years they are still not in a position
to furnish complete and detailed assets registers for their departments.


Members have been informed that Provincial Treasury is in the progress of finalising a uniform provincial assets management system for the Province. We look forward to a report from
Treasury on this matter.


This does not let departments off the hook, nonetheless, as we were clearly explained to. It is absolutely critical that departments still update their respective assets registers so that information
that is transferred to the central provincial system is accurate and accounted for.
                                                                                                 3979


During the course of its deliberations, both Provincial SCOPA and the Finance Portfolio Committee identified the urgent need to have the Audit Committee before us. In the annual reports for
all departments, there is a standard report from the Audit Committee which states that, and I will quote them:


          There were fundamental weaknesses in such systems of internal control that were identified by Internal Audit, and have been raised with the management of Provincial Treasury.


SCOPA needs to be fully appraised of these fundamental weaknesses, as well as the outcome of the various internal audit investigations in order to ensure that the recommendations of the
Internal Audit Unit are abided by, by departments.


The Ulundi air conditioning contract is a prime example of a department that has disregarded the Internal Audit Unit's recommendation. Despite the flagrant and deliberate violation of Treasury
and tender regulations by a consultant, with the full knowledge and aiding and abetting by a senior member of the staff in the Department of Works, no disciplinary action has been taken against
the official to date.


Before I finalise my debate, the Auditor-General's report on the tribal levies and trust accounts cannot go unmentioned. The report is a shocking indictment on the custodians of traditional
authorities in this Province.


Year after year, levies collected from the poorest of the poor are being used to enrich some seasoned recalcitrants, who believe that money transferred or collected by traditional authorities is
for their own personal use.


The Auditor-General's report points to the fact that since the Department was instructed by the Legislature to no longer transfer any public money to the tribal trust fund, and that the trust fund is
now being closely monitored by the Department, thanks to the majority of the people in this Legislature who actually do believe in good governance.


Certain traditional authorities are now taking money collected from the poor, circumventing the trust account, and putting the money into private bank accounts for their personal use.


It was suggested by the Department that further training is needed in traditional authorities. In our opinion, the clear solution is that people responsible for this should be convicted for theft and
sent to goal.


The Department reported that for three years the Ingonyama Trust, a national public entity, has received a disclaimer from the Auditor-General. This means that the finances of the trust are in
such chaos and disarray, that the Auditor-General is unable to express an opinion, and that no supporting documents can be provided for expenditure.


This points to the fact that this appalling state of affairs that has been allowed to deteriorate for more than a decade, cannot be resolved by the Department of Traditional Affairs on its own, but
requires the urgent intervention of the National Department of Land Affairs, and possibly National SCOPA.
                                                                                                  3980


I am saving time, Madam Speaker. What we need to ensure in Provincial SCOPA is that these Resolutions are actually carried out, because often Resolutions are passed in this House that are
just ignored. We need to follow up with departments timeously to ensure that there is a follow-up, and we can make a difference if we all actually believe in the Resolutions that are tabled before
us. I thank you.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member.


MR H BEKKER: Madam Speaker, it is wonderful to listen to the hon Scott and particularly how selectively ...


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon member, I did not call your name. I am still setting the time allocated. Can you take your seat, please?


MR H BEKKER: Yes.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon member, Mr H Bekker, to deliberate for six minutes.


MR H BEKKER: Sorry, Madam Speaker, that I jumped the gun, but you will forgive me in the sense that these selective quotations from the hon Scott in her very, very capable manner, are
quite interesting.


At the end of her speech there was still some time left, but she did not get to the aspect of Housing, and the queries that came from that particular side, which were actually enormous in terms of
it, and therefore the impression does exist here that whatever is IFP-Minister related will be investigated, will be thrashed, but not at all anything that is related to the ANC.


Madam Speaker, I will address you on Resolution 111/2003, Government Fraud and Corruption, the database.


          We have resolved, as the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, that a database be kept by a Central Procurement Committee housed in the Provincial Treasury of firms and
          individuals who have been convicted of fraudulent and corrupt practices, or guilty individuals of consistent poor service in regard to State and State-related contracts, and that
          cognisance be taken of such involvement when considering the allotment of contracts.


          The committee furthermore calls on the Central Procurement Committee and the relevant roleplayers to determine the best possible method of applying this in the Provincial
          Government and report back to the committee by 31 January 2004.


This Resolution finds its foundation in the Public Finance Management Act, calling on greater control, and if necessary, sanction, regarding public finances or expenditure.
                                                                                                  3981




The database as envisaged in this Resolution will provide a list of disqualified companies, close corporations and individuals that, in the past, have failed to fulfil their tendering obligations to the
Provincial Government.


During our deliberations in the portfolio committee I pointed out that it frequently happens that fraudulent and non-performing companies do establish other companies or closed corporations
which then again will tender for contracts.


Our proposal was then that the individual shareholders or members' names and identity numbers must be taken up into the register or database of fraudsters.


Any company or close corporation with a director or shareholder on the fraudulent database should then be disqualified. Similarly the Provincial Government will get rid of all fraudulent
individuals that have tendered and defrauded the Province before.


Of course, it is also mind boggling that, as an example, in Housing, you could go that far, in that foundations are only being laid, and 50% or three-quarters of the tender price has already been
paid to the contractor.


Now, that cannot happen, unless we are dealing here with corrupt officials, or where politicians are meddling in this whole thing and get to a point which is absolutely corrupt.


I think that, as far as I am concerned, those officials particularly should not only be investigated, but the amount that was paid out should be recovered from them and that they indeed should be
sequestrated for that particular matter.


Madam Speaker, this committee, at its workshop, thoroughly held introspection, and several problem areas have been identified and resolved. The Chairperson and all the members of this
committee deserve a pat on the back for the constructive results emanating from this workshop.


What is of concern to me is that the excellent work of this committee is not receiving sufficient media attention.


I quote an example. The Gauteng Legislature has, during the last two weeks, with great fanfare, requested that a similar database as what we have requested here, be implemented for
tenderers. The impression is now being created that Gauteng indeed is the author and the bright spark who is the innovative force behind such a database register. Let us give ourselves more
credit, and may our local media wake up to the needs of our Legislature.


For the record, I want to state that the political parties present in the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature collectively have been responsible for the introduction of a database of fraudulent tenderers. We
thank all our members for being on the ball and doing what is needed for our Province. I thank you.
                                                                                                3982


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. I shall now call upon the hon member, Mr R E Keys, to deliberate for eight minutes.


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Thank you, Madam Speaker. Just before I start I would like to make a reflection on the House, those who are present in the House today, that possibly it is a
reflection of the strength of the parties that will return next year after the election. We notice that the Minority Front and the National Party have disappeared. [LAUGHTER] I am sure that after
the election that might be a true reflection. PDP, ACDP and the UDF. The true contenders for running our Province are present.


Madam Speaker, I think this House owes a debt of gratitude to the Chairperson of the Public Accounts Standing Committee in the House, the hon Alex Hamilton.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): If it was not for his driving force and nagging and persecution of the members of that portfolio committee, we would not have completed the work that the hon
Ngidi has referred to today.


I think that he has persevered, and made us persevere as well. It is also a credit to the members of the Public Accounts Standing Committee that they have been able to complete the work that
they have done.


There are a couple of comments I need to make about a globe trotting, floor crossing, party hopping member. [LAUGHTER]


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTION.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order, please! Order!


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): I will not mention names, but I am sure that the hon member is well aware of who she is as she has been the self-proclaimed witch of this Legislature.
[LAUGHTER]


Madam Speaker, all departments in this Province have had emphasis of matter from the Auditor-General. It is misleading in the extreme to discuss only two of the departments in her speech,
as if none of the other departments have ever had any qualification or emphasis of matter. Maybe she knows who I am talking about. [LAUGHTER]


Madam Speaker, the situation is that this portfolio committee, which is an extension of this Legislature, has fulfilled the task of bringing government departments to account. It is unfortunate that
many of these Resolutions before us, when dealing with IFP or DA members of the Cabinet, are very stringent and hard and call for disciplinary action and response time and this and that.
                                                                                                3983




HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order, please! Order!


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): When it comes to the members on that side of the House, we might as well request that the Minister and his Department actually do abide by the regulation and
Legislation. That it does exhort them to please comply rather than set any deadlines.


I think there has been a bit of a problem there, as the scribe of our committee was a bit feisty in her attacks and maybe in her prejudice.


I would like to say that the Ministers and their departments that have presented themselves to the Public Accounts Committee did a commendable job on the whole. They were open. They
were forthright and they were not intent on hiding matters from the portfolio committee.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): I think we have to also acknowledged that this Legislature, with the government departments in this Province have matured and become more accountable to the
people of this Province.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: The hon member to please take his seat. Let us hear what the hon member is rising on.


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: Hon Madam Speaker, may I know whether the hon member can take a sensible question?


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon member, the hon member wants to know whether you are prepared to take a question.


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Madam Speaker, I have just about finished, and if there was time, I would entertain any question, whether it is sensible or not.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: The hon member is not prepared to take a question. I see another hon member is rising.


MRS B SCOTT: I wonder if the hon member would like to take a question of how many guest appearances he has made in the committee?


THE ACTING SPEAKER: The hon member has already asked a question.
                                                                                               3984


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): No, there will be no question from that hon member. New brooms sweep clean.


Madam Speaker, I would like to address some of the Resolutions of the portfolio committee. There are just a couple of problems with a couple of them, otherwise the DA would support the
entire package. Resolution 52, on page 5, does not have the attachments that are quoted.


If one looks at page 11, there is a need for editing on the 6th and 10th bullets. The 6th bullet, we must remove, I believe, the last half of the last sentence. On the 10th bullet we need to be
actually more legalwise in respect of how we deal with responsible people and disciplinary action.


On page 16, Madam Speaker, if members have their documents with them, there is just a spelling error in the heading.


On page 21, the question is that there is no action required in this vote on Health. Normal procurement procedures must always be followed by the Department of Health. There is no
disciplinary action required when procurement procedures are not followed. That is another aspect that I am alluding to, that we need possibly to look at that, to delete "unless an emergency
situation arises".


Then we look on page 22 where it is unclear as to what this Resolution is actually requesting, whether the Legislation be suspended, and we ask that this be removed.


When it comes to page 23, Resolution 65, we need to have a report date. I think we need to have that Department reporting back. We have done this with most departments, except Health
and Transport. We have asked them to report back by 31 January, but we have not done that with the rest of them.


Yes, it was an oversight of the committee, but I think there is time to fix it. On page 25, that Resolution falls away as the date has passed. We cannot pass a Resolution which calls for action to
be done by 21 November, so I think that one has to fall away.


The National Department of Transport, on page 42, just to indicate that the National Department of Transport has actually done a disservice to this Province and to the Provincial Department of
Transport.


Here the Province is requesting a R30 million write-off, because the National Department of Transport refuses to pay for the work done by the Provincial Department of Transport on the
National Department's behalf. That is the problem.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order please!
                                                                                                3985


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): On page 43, Madam Speaker, we request that we just take note of another write-off there. It is again very soft. The Department should actually follow
regulations. That is a bit of a pity.


Page 57, Madam Speaker, we cannot condone past irregularities. I would suggest to the House that we delete the condonation of past irregularities, but it be noted as it is in the first part of the
sentence.


We would like to end, Madam Speaker, that on page 61, we delete one of the two. I thank you.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon member, thank you. In the absence of the hon members, S Thakur-Rajbansi, Mrs J Downs, S Qoma, I will therefore call upon the hon member, Mr Ngidi, to
deliberate for ten minutes.


MR S B NGIDI: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I actually thought that there were quite a number of members who were to speak before me, and I am not quite sure what is going to happen
because of these many changes that are being proposed.


I would like to echo what Mr Keys said. We would like to thank the hon Mr Alex Hamilton in his absence, for the way in which he drove the portfolio committee in order to do its work.


I remember at some point in time we were at work right up until 10:00 in the evening, and he was really a slave-driver. It is good that we are able to complete our work within this calendar year
so that when we begin next year, as well as when we begin with the new Parliament, we begin with a clean slate.


This Public Accounts report actually deals with three different matters. Firstly, financial matters, and the Auditor-General will if the situation is bad come up with a report of a disclaimer. What
has happened over the years is that all government departments have actually moved from a report in which they received a disclaimer, save for one department at this particular point in time,
namely Education.


What happens is that if it is not a disclaimer, the Department then gets a qualification where the Auditor-General states different areas which have resulted in the qualification. Fewer
departments are now left in an area where they receive a qualified report from the Auditor-General.


Most of our departments are now receiving unqualified reports. What SCOPA in this Province would like to see happening is a situation where all government departments regularly and
consistently get an unqualified report, in order for us to concentrate on the second aspect and that is on the emphasis of matter. We still get qualifications, but most of the departments are now
getting unqualified reports.
                                                                                                3986


With regard to the emphasis of matter, one of the common reports which the Auditor-General presents is the fact that there are weaknesses in control. These weaknesses in control are as a
result of not following the proper Treasury Regulations and also not following the Public Finance Management Act. This happened throughout all these departments.


I support Mr Keys when he says that it is unfair when we talk of weaknesses in control to only pick on certain departments as if these are the only departments which have those weaknesses.


If you go through the Auditor-General's report for the 2002/2003 financial year, you will find that in all the departments there is this paragraph which comments on the weaknesses in control.


Maybe the committee itself would, in time, begin to look at different departments in terms of what they are worth, and begin to move away from trying to isolate departments in terms of to which
party they are connected.


AN HON MEMBER: INTERJECTION.


MR S B NGIDI: This is not going to be the important thing as we move into the future, because we will find that configurations will change completely, and when this changes, you will have no
reason to protect any particular department.


The problem right now is that if you think you are doing a certain department a favour by protecting it, you will find that when configurations change that department is way back from all the other
departments who have been followed up on and scrutinised very thoroughly in regard to this matter. So when we deal with these matters, we need to consider these things very, very carefully.


I have deliberately tried to avoid being controversial, like the hon Scott, because it does not help for us to be controversial. I can also be very controversial, I can also hit back very hard, I am
capable of doing that. I have decided that I will not do that, because it does not help, hon Mthimkhulu. It does not help for a person to shout like you do from the depth of your ignorance.
[LAUGHTER]


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order, please!


MR S B NGIDI: You see, I used to know people who are as blank as you are. The way you speak, it shows that you might be as blank as some people, let me leave it at that. [LAUGHTER]


The third portion which the Auditor-General looks into, after having looked at the emphasis of matter, you also look at matters of public importance.


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: INTERJECTION.


MR S B NGIDI: Madam Speaker, if I could get protection from the hon Mthimkhulu. He is busy disturbing me, and I cannot continue.
                                                                                                   3987


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order, please!


MR S B NGIDI: Thank you. Another thing which the Auditor-General comments on is matters of public importance. It is important for SCOPA to look at matters of public importance which
affect finances in a province, because this highlights these particular matters, for discussion.


This is what we do in Public Works, we look at financial matters and that kind of report that comes out of there. There is emphasis of matter, and the common trend in the emphasis of matters
is that there are weak controls.


What we need to do as the Legislature is to work with the various departments in order to tighten the controls, so that service delivery for the poor people of the Province can be improved on. I
thank you, Madam Speaker.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. I shall now call upon the hon member, Mrs C M Cronje, to deliberate for eight minutes.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Thank you, Madam Speaker. You know, there is something wonderful about the ANC. We must be very powerful. The IFP can be controversial, they can
say terrible things about our National Government, our National Ministers, our President, our past President, that is fine.


The DA can be controversial. They can slam the ANC, rubbish the ANC from top to bottom. That is fine. If the ANC says something that is slightly critical, everybody cries.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Listen to them crying. The hon Sbu Ngidi has just been crying for ten minutes.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): We must be very powerful. Look at you now, you are crying. We must be very powerful.


Let me say one thing, I am deeply shocked, amazed and surprised at the hon Radley Keys. It is actually quite an insult to the committee. To be a member of the committee you never know
whether he is going to be there. I am not even sure that he is a member of that committee, because he comes, he goes, he is here and there. He is there for five minutes. He is in and out. He
never follows the thread of a discussion.
                                                                                                3988


AN HON MEMBER: INTERJECTION.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Hon Mrs Ngcobo, you do not have to be an apologist for Mr Keys. He is big enough to be his own apologist. Then he must not come here and edit when a
special committee meeting was called to edit the Resolutions. It is not acceptable. I am very sorry. They are crying again. I think the hon Mr Hamilton will be very disappointed. Can I tell you
one thing...


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, can you please take your seat. I would like to hear what the hon member, Mr Keys, is rising on.


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order that the hon member Cronje is misleading the House. This final draft was never presented to the portfolio committee,
and that she is disturbingly and wilfully misleading the House, that the committee had seen this final draft before today.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. I shall investigate that and give a ruling on the next sitting day. Let the hon member continue.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): The hon Mr Hamilton was very proud of the fact that we were actually unanimous about these Resolutions. He was also very proud of the fact that we
managed to get through the work.


Do you know why we got through the work? Some dedicated members virtually slept at this Legislature. I am going to include the hon Mr Ngidi, he knows what he is talking about, because he
is a very dedicated member of this committee and he is there most of the time, and so are several other members of the IFP.


I cannot say the same about the hon Hennie Bekker. I am not sure that he is a member of this House anymore. I mean, really, I feel I should introduce myself to him. He never comes, and
then he pontificates.


We got through the work, because some people did the work, not because of others, and I think people should actually start pulling their weight in this House.


Now, let me just deal with one or two issues. We have some 61 Resolutions before us.


MR T D NTOMBELA: INTERJECTIONS.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): The hon Mr Ntombela, you also work very hard. [LAUGHTER] I see you here all the time. I am not fighting with you. So please, do not fight with me.
                                                                                                3989


We are passing some 61 Resolutions. Do we know what is going to happen to them? I think it is actually my duty, we have wasted a lot of time, but I want to bring this to the attention of the
House.


We have two Rules that are very pertinent to this debate. The first Rule is 208, Register of Resolutions. I am glad that the Acting Secretary is here:


208.     The Secretary must:


         (a)       keep a register of Resolutions of the House;


         (b)       on implementation of a Resolution, immediately record the implementation date of that Resolution in the Register; and


         (c)      ensure that a copy of the Register is available in both libraries of the House.


Now we come to the more important one, Rule 209.


209.


         (1)       The Secretary must communicate a Resolution of the House affecting Cabinet, a person or body to the Premier, that person or body respectively, in writing within seven days.


         (2)       The Secretary must take all necessary steps to ensure that a Resolution of the House is given effect to.


         (3)       The Secretary must table a written progress report to Parliament through the Speaker on a quarterly basis,...


Hon Mr Speaker, I have never seen such a report. These Rules have been in force for nearly two years. On a quarterly basis the Speaker must table a progress report, including copies of the
pages of the Register of Resolutions under Rule 208. The best comes last:


         (4)       The Premier must table in Parliament a written progress report on the implementation of Resolutions pertaining to Cabinet, on a quarterly basis.


Again, these Rules have been in force for almost two years. None of this has happened. Certainly not 209(3) and (4). Hon Mr Speaker, you are the custodian of the Rules. We would like to
know why this is not being done.


May I say, when we pass these 61 Resolutions, let us ensure that Rules 208 and 209 are being given effect to, otherwise we are all wasting our time here. Otherwise Mr Hamilton and his
                                                                                                3990


committee have also wasted their time, because it is so much paper and nothing more.


When I looked at these Resolutions, it was almost with a sense of nostalgia that I realised where we are coming from. Resolution 51 on page 2, for the Department of the Premier, I want to
concede immediately it relates to 94, 95. I am using this as an example to indicate that we have indeed come a very long way in this Legislature. That Resolution reads:


         The Standing Committee on Public Accounts noted the unauthorised expenditure of R5,660 million for the illegal payment on Self Protection Units.


That is still an outstanding matter. That is why it is here. It was with a sense of nostalgia that I remembered it was a Health Committee meeting. The hon Dr Mkhize was there when the SPUs
invaded the Ulundi Legislature.


There was a wonderful story about Dr Sutcliffe who was then a member of this House, who was wearing an ANC tracksuit during the meeting, and he thought it was not very prudent, and he
tried to slide under the table so that he could hide the ANC colours.


That is where we come from. But the fact of the matter is, this is an outstanding issue. The House resolves when we adopt this for the committee to be provided with a complete copy of the
KPMG Commission of Inquiry report, as well as the original cheques, or certified copies thereof by 31 January 2004, and we will follow up. These payments were made illegally.


AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Fortunately we have come a long way, but I want to agree fully with the hon Mr Ngidi when he says that there are weaknesses in internal control. I have
listed them here. It pertains to the Premier, the Legislature, Agriculture, Health, Education, every department.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): That is where we need to tighten up.


THE SPEAKER: The hon member's time is up. The next member, the hon Mr Ngidi, for five minutes.


MR S B NGIDI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am speaking on behalf of Mr Hamilton. I assure you I will not speak about the airport and Coega, but I am asking you, Mr Speaker, to put these
Resolutions before the House in order for the House to consider them. Thank you, Mr Speaker.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!
                                                                                             3991


THE SPEAKER: These Resolutions are put before the House for adoption. I therefore put the Resolutions before the House.


THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS RESOLUTIONS - ADOPTED


THE RESOLUTIONS COMPRISE OF  60 PAGES AND ARE THEREFORE NOT REFLECTED IN HANSARD



THE SPEAKER: Then, colleagues, we have come to the end of today's business. Before we close, I have received a letter in terms of Rule 106(1) from the hon Dr Radebe, who would like to
make some explanation pertaining to his statement he made this morning. I will give you three minutes to do so. Hon member Dr Radebe?


DR B M RADEBE: Angibonge Somlomo. Cha Somlomo, ngiyabonga ukuthi unginike lelithuba. Ngisukumela nje Somlomo ukulungisa ngisuke ngavukwa umoya ekuseni kwaze kwathinteka
nelungu elihloniphekile uMphephethwa obengekho nalayiNdlini kanti bekukhuluma abanye ukuthi ngiyayihoxisa lento yokusebenzisa igama lakhe kanye noBaba uMzobe. Kusuke kwavuka
umoya ukuthi bakipitile. Futhi especially bengingabhekisanga nakuyena uBaba uGwala. But ngifisa ukusho ukuthi akubona ubuqotho ukuthi ngisho into unembeza uthi ngisho into engafanele
bese ngihlala nayo, ngifisa ukuhoxisa lawomagama.


TRANSLATION: Thank you Mr Speaker. Well Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity. I rise on a point of correction. My emotions ran high this morning to such an extent that
mention was made of the hon member Mphephethwa who was not even present in this House; in fact others were speaking. I consequently withdraw using his and Mr Mzobe's names when I
spoke about living together as husband and wife yet they are not married. And in fact I was not even referring to Mr Gwala. But I wish to state that it is not an honourable thing to say
something when my conscience is not clear. I consequently wish to withdraw those words unreservedly. T/E


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


HON MEMBERS: Uyohamba usinda. [What a narrow escape you have had].


THE SPEAKER: Siyabonga kakhulu lungu elihloniphekileyo. [Thank you very much hon member]. Order! Order! I would like to make this ruling, colleagues in respect of a point of order
which was raised by the hon Minister of Transport, hon Ndebele.


This was raised on 27 November 2003 based on Standing Rule 97(2). In support of his point of order, the hon Minister stated as follows, and I quote:


         This will refer to the hon member Mr Aulsebrook, and hon member Mr Gwala yesterday on a matter on which you, Mr Speaker, have ruled after the House had to adjourn for more than
         two hours.


This was on the issue of the armoured vehicle. There is no armoured car, and members who are raising that issue know that they are lying and deliberately misleading this House, and it is
                                                                                               3992


malicious.


I therefore ask you, Mr Speaker, through the Rules Committee, to investigate the abuse of the privileges of this House.


The hon Minister is quite right to say that this matter has been investigated before. The question in relation to the armoured vehicle was answered by the Minister during the sitting on
Wednesday, 9 April 2003, and I have also ruled previously on this matter. It was clarified that there is indeed no armoured vehicle.


The question that now needs to be decided is whether the hon members Aulsebrook and Gwala did intend in making their statements to deliberately mislead this House, and to give this House
the wrong impression regarding the armoured vehicle issue.


I deal firstly with the statement by hon member Mr Aulsebrook, who stated the following, and I quote:


         The Finance Committee did not even consider it necessary to investigate the allegations regarding the armoured vehicle. The issue regarding the alleged armoured car has still not
         been investigated, and this allegation could have been put to rest a long time ago if the committee had seen fit to do so.


What wrong or misleading impression can one gain from the comment of the hon Aulsebrook? In his comments one can see that what he was doing was informing the House, in his capacity as
a member of the Finance Portfolio Committee, debating the report of that committee, that the Finance Portfolio Committee did not consider it necessary to investigate the armoured car issue
essentially then.


The member is reporting on a subject matter previously raised in the House, and advising that the relevant committee did not consider the issue worthy of investigation.


Mr Aulsebrook is reporting on the business of the Finance Portfolio Committee as a matter of fact, and there is thus no attempt to mislead anyone.


These circumstances are distinguishable from my ruling in respect of the words uttered by the hon Mr Malakoana, who stated that:


         There are somewhat confirmed rumours of the Department purchasing an armoured vehicle for the hon Minister.


These utterances constituted deliberately misleading the House since the hon member was present in the House when the question was answered, dismissing the rumours.


The hon Mr Aulsebrook is merely making reference to a subject matter in advising the House that such subject matter was not investigated by the Finance Portfolio Committee.


It is therefore my ruling in respect of the comments made by hon Mr Aulsebrook that he was not attempting to deliberately mislead the House.
                                                                                              3993




I now come to the comments made by the hon member Mr Gwala. Hon Mr Gwala stated the following in his speech on Wednesday, 26 November 2003, and I quote:


         Nobody seems to say a thing about an armoured vehicle bought with public funds. This armoured vehicle was bought for one man without following proper procurement regulations.


Hon Mr Gwala was present in the House on Wednesday, 25 June 2003, the sitting day when I handed down my ruling in respect of the hon Mr Malakoana's utterances.


In making his statements concerning the purchase of an armoured vehicle, the hon Mr Gwala portrayed them as fact, while knowing them to be untrue.


It is thus my ruling that the hon member Mr Gwala did attempt to give others the impression that his comments were true and to deliberately mislead this House.


The hon member is therefore requested to withdraw his statement. Hon member Mr Gwala?


MR M B GWALA: Mhlonishwa Somlomo. Usuku lwami lokuzalwa namhlanje mhlaka 4 December angifuni lolusuku lonakale, kodwa ukuze ngixolise noma ngihoxise inkulumo yami ngifuna
ukuthi ngikusho lokhu ukuthi ngihlonipha iNdlu yakho yePhalamende nanokusho ukuthi akekho engangibhekise kuyena ikakhulukazi uNgqongqoshe okuyena obhalele uSomlomo angikaze
ngimkhombe ngomunwe. Kodwa uma lihlabe laphukela kuNgqongqoshe ngiyahoxisa.


TRANSLATION: Hon Mr Speaker. Today is my birthday, 4 December, and I do not want it to be spoiled. But for me to either apologise or withdraw my utterance, I want to state that I respect
your House of Parliament and also that I did not direct my utterance to anyone, particularly the Minister who wrote to the Speaker. I have never pointed a finger at him, but if the Minister
became upset I withdraw my words. T/E


THE SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. In reference to the request by the hon Minister of Transport, that the issue of abuse of the privilege of the House, alternatively phrased as a breach
of the Standing Rules, be investigated by the Rules Standing Committee, this House is advised that a copy of this ruling shall be forwarded by my office to the Chairperson of the Rules Standing
Committee for placement on the agenda of their next meeting. I thank you.


Again, colleagues, I would like to remind members that all members and staff are invited to a social evening. I request that members join us in the dining room for a Christmas party.


The House will adjourn till 9:00 tomorrow. House adjourns.


                     HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 18:32 UNTIL
                    09:00 ON FRIDAY, 05 DECEMBER 2003
                                                                                             3994


                      DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
               KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE


                                FIFTH SESSION
                      NINTH SITTING - FIFTH SITTING DAY
                         FRIDAY, 05 DECEMBER 2003


THE HOUSE MET AT 09:07 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG. THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.


THE SPEAKER:


2.       OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS


3.       ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION


4.       ANNOUNCEMENTS BY SPEAKER


THE SPEAKER: I would like to make this announcement, colleagues. In fact this morning I received a letter from the hon Minister of Finance, hon Mr Miller, which reads thus:


         Request for withdrawal of the KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill 2003 and advisement as to agreed procedure in respect of tabling of the further Bill. With reference to the current
         proceedings in the House, I confirm that the House is presently involved with the plenary stage of the KwaZulu-Natal Adjustment Appropriation Bill 2003, in that the budget debate is
         ongoing. During the course of the budget debate, it has become evident that certain minor amendments need to be made to the KwaZulu-Natal Adjustment Appropriation Bill 2003.
         The House is not equipped with the necessary constitutional tools to give effect to the agreed amendments to this Money Bill in Parliament. Consequently the Ministry of Finance has
         agreed to:


         1.       withdraw the KwaZulu-Natal Adjustment Appropriation Bill 2003;


         2.       effect the agreed amendments to the schedules and the White Book; and


         3.       table a fresh KwaZulu-Natal Adjustment Appropriation Bill 2003, for consideration by the House.


         In compliance with the provisions of Standing Rule 158(2), I may only withdraw the Bill at any time before or during the plenary stage, with the approval of the House. Accordingly the
                                                                                             3995


         office of the Speaker is requested to seek such approval from the House in the form of a vote on the question.


That is procedural. That is the request before this House. I therefore put the question, does the House approve of the withdrawal of the KwaZulu-Natal Adjustment Appropriation Bill 2003, by
the hon Minister of Finance?


WITHDRAWAL OF THE KWAZULU-NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL 2003 - AGREED TO


THE SPEAKER: Then we will move to item No 5 colleagues.


5.       ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORTS BY THE PREMIER


THE SPEAKER: Hon Premier?


THE PREMIER: Somlomo, neNdlu yakho ehloniphekile anginasimemezelo engizosenza. [Mr Speaker and your hon House, I have no announcements to make].


THE SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Premier.


6.       TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS


THE SPEAKER: Hon Mr Malakoana?


MR M S MALAKOANA: Mr Speaker, I would like to table a report on my having been to the United States of America on the American Council of Young Political Leaders. Thank you.


THE SPEAKER: Then we move to item No 7.


7.       NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS


THE SPEAKER: Hon Minister of Finance, hon Mr Miller.


MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance): Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I have tabled a further letter with you which I would like the House to deal with. I will read the letter because it
contains everything that we need to do. I said:
                                                                                                  3996


         With reference to my correspondence of even date whereby I request the withdrawal of the KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation Bill 2003,...


and that has just been done -


         ...I hereby table the new KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation Bill 2003, which I intend introducing to the House under Standing Rule 180(a) by the delivery of a short introductory
         speech and submission of this copy of the Bill and the explanatory memorandum therein to the Office of the Speaker.


         I request, Mr Speaker, that you refer the KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation Bill 2003, and the explanatory memorandum, to the Finance Portfolio Committee under Standing
         Rule 181(1) for deliberation.


         I also request, Mr Speaker, that you determine under Standing Rule 181(2) that the Finance Portfolio Committee must report to the House at an appointed time on the same day, that
         is today, Friday, 05 December 2003. This will necessitate a suspension of Standing Rule 160 which provides that a committee to which a Bill has been referred may not report to the
         House on the same day as the Bill was tabled or deemed to have been tabled, except when the Bill has been recommitted under Rule 177(1)(b).


Standing Rule 177, Mr Speaker, canvasses amendments to a Bill other than a Money Bill, during Plenary Stage Debate. Accordingly the Speaker is requested to kindly ensure that the
appropriate two-thirds majority resolution of the House is obtained under Standing Rule 5(1) for the suspension of Standing Rule 160 as it applies to the proceedings on the new KwaZulu-Natal
Adjustments Appropriation Bill 2003.


I have taken the initiative in drafting such Resolution, which Resolution I will move as soon as I have completed this particular letter.


I will also request that you, Mr Speaker, ensure that the requirements of Standing Rule 182, the placement of the Money Bill on an amended Order Paper are met and that you peruse and
consider the portion of the aforesaid draft Resolution in so far as it relates to Standing Rule 183. In the light of the fact that the amendments to be effected have been agreed to and actually
emanate out of the proceedings of the portfolio committee on the previous Bill, it is not considered essential or expedient for the amendments to be debated afresh. It is on this ground that the
suspension of Rule 183 is also being motivated.


I move straight therefore in the light of that letter which I have tabled with you and which I have now read to the House, to request your permission under the same item on the Order Paper to
move a motion without notice moved under Standing Rule 5(3). If I have permission to move that, I will then proceed to do so straight away.


THE SPEAKER: NOT ON RECORD.


MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance): Thank you, sir. The motion will read thus:
                                                                                                3997


         The House noting that:


         1.       the Minister of Finance has today, Friday, 5 December 2003, with the requisite approval of the House withdrawn the KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation Bill 2003 under
                  Standing Rule 158(2);


         2.       the Minister of Finance has introduced in terms of that letter a new KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation Bill, which Bill is here and I table it, sir;


         3.       and I request the Office of the Speaker to refer this Money Bill to the Finance Portfolio Committee under Standing Rule 181(1) for deliberation; and that


         4.       it is agreed by all parties that the Plenary Stage of the KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation Bill 2003 must be completed today;


         5.       Standing Rule 160 entitled Due Consideration by Committee provides that a committee to which a Bill has been referred may not report to the House on the same day as the
                  Bill was tabled or deemed to have been tabled, except when the Bill has been recommitted under Rule 177(1)(b); and that


         6.       Standing Rule 183 entitled Consideration of Schedules, votes and Supplementary Estimates to Money Bill provides that the question on the Plenary Stage of a Money Bill
                  may not be put until any Schedule, vote or supplementary estimate has been debated and/or voted upon; and


         7.       the amendments to be effected to the previously tabled version of the KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation Bill 2003, have been agreed to by all parties and actually
                  emanate out of the portfolio committee state, which is part of the Plenary Stage, on this previous Bill;


         8.       Consequently it is not considered essential or expedient for there to be a fresh debate on the issue.


         The House resolves therefore:


         to act under Standing Rule 5 in suspending Standing Rules 160 and 183 for the purpose of finalising proceedings on the KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation Bill 2003.


THE SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr Minister. The first thing, I think, that we need to do is to suspend the Rules. I therefore put the question before the House. I will ask parties to respond to that
because it needs two-thirds of the members present. The ANC?


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, we will support the suspension of the Rules.


THE SPEAKER: IFP?
                                                                                               3998




MR G B BHENGU: (Whip): IFP will support the suspension of the Rules.


THE SPEAKER: DA?


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): The DA supports the suspension of the Rules, Mr Speaker.


THE SPEAKER: NNP?


MR B V EDWARDS: The NNP supports the suspension of the Rules.


THE SPEAKER: MF? They are not in. PDP?


MR J H SLABBERT: Support, Mr Speaker.


SUSPENSION OF STANDING RULES 160 AND 183 - AGREED TO


THE SPEAKER: So the suspension is supported by all parties. So the Rules are accordingly suspended.


As a result of that, I refer the Bill to the committee as tabled. I further request that we change the Order Paper in order to accommodate the new Bill. Thank you.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, there is no change to the Order Paper required. It is on the Order Paper and it will go ahead where it is.


THE SPEAKER: Okay, that is fine.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Yes. But, Mr Speaker, there is a further request. I do not see Mr Keys now. I thought he would be making the request. Apparently there is some traffic
problem and we have agreed that orders 8.1 and 8.2, and I think Mr Keys has checked with all the parties that it is in order that orders 8.1 and 8.2 be swapped. In other words that 8.2, the
Debate on Agriculture and Environment goes in as 8.1, and the debate on Economic Development & Tourism goes in as 8.2.


My leader, who is also the MEC for Transport, is concerned about the traffic problem. I will explain to him but one of the MECs is stuck in traffic, we understand, and cannot get here on time.
Maybe he can airlift him.
                                                                                              3999


But I understand that Mr Keys has checked with all the parties. It is certainly okay from the ANC's side. We have checked with the MEC for Agriculture and he is happy to assist in this matter.


THE SPEAKER: Let me hear other parties whether they agree to that. IFP?


MRS E E N KANKOSI-SHANDU: (Whip): Agreed.


THE SPEAKER: DA?


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Agreed.


THE SPEAKER: NNP?


MR B V EDWARDS: NNP agrees.


THE SPEAKER: PDP?


MR J H SLABBERT: NOT ON RECORD.


THE SPEAKER: Thank you. We are still on item 7, Notices of Bills or Motions. Hon Prof Professor Ndabandaba?


PROF L B G NDABANDABA: (Minister of Education and Culture): Thank you, Mr Speaker. On the next sitting day I will move


         Noting:


         1.        This House notes with shock and disgust the suspected involvement in an alleged international human organ trafficking network of those arrested in Durban.


         2.        Further notes that one of the suspects will appear in the Durban Magistrate's Court today.


         3.        This House applauds the SAPS Durban for tracking down and arresting those suspected.


         4.        This House condemns this criminogenic violation of the Human Tissues Act.
                                                                                             4000


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mrs Ambler-Moore?


MRS M AMBLER-MOORE: Thank you, Mr Speaker. On the next sitting day of this House, I shall move that


        This House noting that:


        One of the names given to the 16 days of activism of violence against women is "Every 6 Days" as a women dies every 6 days from violence against her.


        Further noting that according to very recent research this name is now "Every 4 days" as a woman is killed violently every 4 days and not 6.


        This House expresses its grief and shock at such appalling statistics, and urges that every effort be made to stop these mad attacks on women and children.


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Aulsebrook?


MR J F AULSEBROOK: Mr Speaker, on the next sitting day of this House I shall move as follows:


        Noting that the Premier's AIDS Conference held at the ICC on 1 and 2 December 2003 was an overwhelming success and a progressive step in addressing the AIDS pandemic.


        This House resolves to congratulate the Premier and the Provincial AIDS Council on the conference's success.


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Gwala?


MR M B GWALA: Mhlonishwa Somlomo, neNdlu yakho ehloniphekile ngokuhlala kwaleNdlu okulandelayo ngiyophakamisa kanje:


        LeNdlu:


        iyakuthakasela ukukhuthazwa kwabantu nguHulumeni ngokuklonyeliswa kwalabo abavelele emikhakheni yonke yempilo ezweni lonke njengoba uMongameli Wezwe kade eklomelisa
        abangamashumi amane ekuqaleni kwalelisonto.


        Lemiklomela ikhuthaza nentsha ukuba igqamise amakhono ayo anhlobonhlobo.


        LeNdlu:
                                                                                           4001




        ihalalisela uNdlunkulu yoMbuso kaZulu ngokuklonyeliswa kweNkosazane kaMamonga "u-Fahla kephuki kanjenganduku" uMntwana uMagogo Constance Nganezinye, sibilile Mantithi
        kaDinizulu kaCetshwayo sithi kuye noma usuphumule Mageba kodwa uyibekile induku ebandla.


        Isizulu sithi; "Zofa izinsizwa kosala izibongo"


TRANSLATION: Mr Speaker, on the next sitting day of this House I shall move as follows:


        The House appreciates the encouragement of people from all spheres throughout the country, as the country's President did, by giving awards to forty people at the beginning of this
        week.


        Such awards encourage youth to expose their various skills.


        This House congratulates the Zulu Royal Household for awarding Princess Mamonga "ufahla kephuki kanjenganduku" Princess Magogo, Constance. We say to her even though you
        are no more, you have made your mark.


        Zulus say "heroes will die but they will leave their mark". T/E


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Malakoana?


MR M S MALAKOANA: Mhlonishwa Somlomo, neNdlu yakho ehloniphekile ngokuhlala kwaleNdlu okulandelayo ngiyophakamisa kanje:


        LeNdlu:


        ikushayela ihlombe ukunikwa koMntwana Inkosi M G Buthelezi iNkululeko yendawo yesiFunda sase-Zululand nguMkhandlu wesiFunda sase-Zululand esiholwa nguNkosazana Zanele
        Magwaza, kanye nokuklonyeliswa kwakhe indodo yohlobo oluphezulu lobuKhosi baKwaZulu ebizwa ngo; "Mthunzi" ezokhiswha Isilo esibusayo Ingonyama kaZulu kusasa mhlaka 6
        Disemba 2003.


        Leligxathu lingeliphezulu kakhulu empilweni yonke yoMntwana waKwaPhindangene nasesizwe sonke seNingizimu Afrika.


        LeNdlu:
                                                                                              4002


         ibonga Isilo saMazulu ngobuhlakani bokusungula lendondo nokuba iqhawe lokuqala ukwemukela kube uMntwana waKwaPhindangene njengoba eseke wemukela izindondo eziningi
         emhlabeni kuhlangene ne; "Kings cross" ayinikwa yisi Isilo eminyakeni eyishumi namabili eyedlule.


         LeNdlu ithi; "Bayethe Hlanga loMhlabathi".


TRANSLATION: Mr Speaker, on the next sitting day of this House I shall move as follows:


         This House appreciates the awarding of the freedom of the town to Inkosi M G Buthelezi by the Zululand Region which is led by Zanele Magwaza, and the proposal of a top award to
         him which is called "Mthunzi" by His Majesty the King tomorrow on 6 December 2003.


         This is the top achievement for the Prince of KwaPhindangene in his whole life, and the whole South African Nation.


         This House thanks His Majesty the King for the wisdom he showed by establishing this award. The first hero to get it is awarded with many awards around the world, including the
         "King's Cross" by His Majesty in the past twelve years.


         This House says: "Bayethe Hlanga loMhlabathi." T/E


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Panday?


MR K PANDAY: Mr Speaker, I give notice that I shall move the following motion on the next sitting day:


         Noting that:


         HIV/AIDS is ravaging our communities daily;


         a highly successful indaba was called for three days at the ICC recently;


         His Excellency the Premier of KwaZulu-Natal called this gathering a war council against the disease;


         Proposal for the creation of a permanent structure to lead our struggle against the disease;
                                                                                              4003




          Urgently call for co-ordinated and sustainable action;


          Resolves that:


          We congratulate our Premier for his innovative approach and commit ourselves to his clarion call.


AN HON MEMBER: His Excellency, our only Premier!


THE SPEAKER: Thank you. Then we will move to item 8. Before we do that, I have just received a request from the hon Chairperson of the Finance Portfolio Committee, hon Mr Xaba, that all
members of the Finance Committee are kindly requested to meet at 10:00 to consider the new KwaZulu-Natal Adjustment Estimates Bill as introduced by the Minister of Finance and referred to
the portfolio committee. The venue will be the ANC caucus room at 10:00. Thank you.


We have exhausted our today's slot. Then we move to Item 8.


8.1       DEBATE: REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS IN TERMS OF RULE 10(4)


THE SPEAKER: To start the debate I will call upon hon member Mr Naicker. You have five minutes. Oh, he is not in the Chamber. Then we will move to the next member.


MRS E E N KANKOSI-SHANDU: (Whip): Mr Speaker.


THE SPEAKER: Yes, Mrs kaNkosi-Shandu?


MRS E E N KANKOSI-SHANDU: (Whip): Mr Naicker was preparing his speech because he knew this debate was coming second. Thank you.


THE SPEAKER: You know delaying tactics are always annoying, and they destroy the intention of the Presiding Officer. Again I will call upon hon member Mr Naicker. You have five minutes
to deliberate.


MR S V NAICKER: Mr Speaker, with the time constraint and the very detailed debate on Agriculture, I would have to focus on some of the very important issues.


I want to begin, Mr Speaker, globally. Researchers in the United States say that there are now 482 million permanently hungry human beings on the planet. The United States Food &
Agriculture Organisation says one in every seven people are now malnourished and a goal of halting world hunger by 2015 is increasingly out of reach.
                                                                                                4004




Underpinning our concern is the required political will. Countries that succeeded in reducing hunger were countries that were characterised by more rapid economic growth and specifically by
more rapid growth in the agricultural sector.


The Hunger Report highlighted Brazil which has launched a Zero Hunger Project as a leading example of a country that has made progress. I make this point, Mr Speaker, and immediately
turn to a situation which we are facing in this Province, a situation which overlaps on the Department of Economic Affairs and on the Department of Agriculture.


At Entumeni, Mr Speaker, which is about 30 kilometres away from Eshowe, a sugar mill was established 75 years ago. That particular industry changed hands from the Savell Group to the
Premier Group to another group and finally to Huletts, to which end I played a role in the period of transition. At that stage Huletts had given the employees assurance of the continuity of the
sugar mill, so much so, which encouraged the emerging farmers to take full advantage, so much so, sir, even the relative department came to their rescue. Throughout this period the
sugarcane production came from over 95% of the emerging farmers in that region.


Those of you who know where Mbongolwane is, those of you who know where Nsungulwana is, all those areas did not have sugarcane, but throughout those areas there was such enthusiasm,
you can see agriculture progressing. But now for Huletts to feel that it is no longer economic to continue with the sugar mill, it has plunged that entire area into a serious dilemma.


In an age, Mr Speaker, where this particular Province is perhaps faced with tremendous unemployment and the other epidemics which affect the well-being of human society, it is only the
employment factor that is going to keep us and enable us to survive. But to witness an industry in that region to be closed is going to have a very, very serious impact on the entire region,
including Eshowe.


I want to therefore make a very special appeal, Mr Speaker, to the hon Minister that everything humanly possible be done.             to Negotiate with the National Agricultural with respect, with
the Economic Division, with Huletts, to enable them to continue the sugar industry. Over and above that, Mr Speaker, there are alternatives - of course the hon Mr Mackenzie will know that
growing sugarcane is a first in South Africa. And I want to make an appeal to the hon Minister to pursue this.


THE SPEAKER: The next member to deliberate is hon member Mrs Nkonyeni. You have four minutes.


MRS N P NKONYENI: (Whip): Somlomo, neNdlu yakho ehloniphekile angazi noma ubungavuma yini ukungipha ithutshana lomzuzu owodwa kengihalalisele loMnyango ngokuthi ekugcineni
uthole uNgqongqoshe onombono wokushintsha izimpilo zabantu bakithi zibengcono.


Ngizohalalisa ngokuthi ngivume nje lengoma ethi; "Avulekile amasango ezulu" angazi noma uyangivumela yini Somlomo? [UHLEKO] Uma ungavumi Shombela ukuthi ngihhaye leyo
bengingahhaya le ethi; "Wena uyazi weShombela wena uyazi sonqoba kanjani". [UHLEKO.


Ngoba nginesikhathi esincane Somlomo, ngizokhuluma ngokugcizelela ukuthi besingathanda ukubona loMnyango usungula ama-Co-operatives Development Centres kuwowonke ama-
                                                                                               4005


Regions.


Ama-Co-operatives okokuqala nje agqugquzela abantu bakithi ukuthi bazongele bona izimali zabo, futhi bafunde ukuziphathela bona, bazithathele nezinqumo, kuphela nje uma ama-Co-
operatives engaxhasiwe uHulumeni ngohlelo lokuqeqeshwa kwabanikazi ukuze bafunde ngobunikazi nokuziphathela, awakwazi ukuphumelela.


TRANSLATION: Mr Speaker, and your hon House, I do not know whether you can give an opportunity, one minute in fact, for me to congratulate this Department for acquiring the services of
the Minister who has a vision to change the lives of our people for the better.


I will congratulate by singing the song: "AVULEKILE AMASANGO EZULU". I do not know whether you will allow me Mr Speaker? [LAUGHTER] If you do not allow me to sing that one, I
could sing the one that says: "Wena uyazi weShombela wena uyazi sonqoba kanjani". [LAUGHTER]


Because I have limited time Mr Speaker, I am going to emphasise that we would have loved to see this Department establish Co-operative Development Centres in all regions.


Firstly, the Co-operatives encourage our people to save their own funds, learn to run them and take decisions themselves. As long as the Co-operatives are not subsidised by the government
in terms of training offered to owners for them to learn about ownership and self-management, they can never succeed. T/E


Historically co-operatives have been a direct response by the unemployed to improve their social and economic conditions. In other parts of the world co-operatives have been successfully
developed as a planned intervention to improve the agricultural and economic productivity of rural populations.


Lapha e-South Africa Shombela ama-Co-operatives abexhasa abebala kuphela. Kumanje kusa-amendwa i-Co-operatives Development Act ukuze ikwazi ukuthi nabantu bakithi basizakale.
[Here in South Africa, Shombela Co-operatives were only subsidising the people of colour. At this present moment the Co-operatives Development Act is being amended for the benefit of our
people].


The Department of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs should join forces with NCASA which is National Co-operatives Association of South Africa, to research co-operative structures in
South Africa and to establish whether they provide a viable employment opportunity for youth and women in this country.


With the support of government, co-operative development policy and Legislation, and the Growth and Development Summit Agreement which recognises the potential role of co-operatives, we
believe South African co-operatives have the potential to offer a vehicle for a socially and economically inclusive economy.


Siyabonga-ke Shombela ngoba sizwile nokuthi uzoqaphelisisa nokuthi abafuyi bakithi bazonakekelwa iloMnyango.                   Somlomo, uhlelo lukaXoshindlala belunamehlo kuleminyaka edlule,
belubona abangale koThukela, lungababhekeli abangala ngasoGwini lwangakithi naseThekwini. Siyabona-ke manje ukuthi cha uShombela ubonakala yonke indawo usuthisa umphakathi
ukhipha ogandaganda. Siyabonga-ke sithi kubantu bakithi; "PHEZU KOMKHONO, AVULEKILE AMASANGO", ibambeni. Ngiyabonga.
                                                                                                   4006




TRANSLATION: We thank you Shombela, because we heard that you are going to ensure that our stock farmers are to be cared for by this Department. Mr Speaker, the Xoshindlala
Programme had eyes in the past year. It saw beyond uThukela, it did not cater for those on the Coast and in Durban, and we can see Shombela that you are everywhere, satisfying the
community giving out tractors. We thank you and we say to our people: "PHEZU KOMKHONO, AVULEKILE AMASANGO", hold it right there. I thank you. T/E


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: Ngabe ngikunikezile ithuba lokucula kodwa manje usuke wabhimba ngase ngibona ukuthi ingonakala yonke lento. [UHLEKO] [I would have given you the opportunity to sing,
but now you sang out of tune and I then realised everything was to go wrong]. [LAUGHTER] The next one to deliberate is the hon member Mr Volker. You have three minutes.


MR V A VOLKER: I thank you, Mr Speaker. One of the aspects that the Minister dealt with in presenting his report was the question of revitalising the livestock industry and capacitating the
Livestock Association.


It is generally known and accepted that this is an important sector of the agricultural industry in South Africa, but the livestock industry particularly is of tremendous importance to the Zulu people
of this Province. It is the one sector of the agricultural industry where the Zulus have traditionally participated actively over centuries. They have gained a tremendous amount of experience
and active involvement in the livestock industry.


But recently they have increasingly moved into the economic marketing branch of the livestock industry, as against purely the cultural aspect thereof and the self-sustaining aspect thereof. This
is an important factor. I appreciate the fact that the Minister has highlighted the need for revitalising the livestock industry.


I believe there is still considerable scope for the effective upgrading of the farming methods and especially the quality of livestock in preference to highlighting merely the quantity thereof. I
believe that if attention is given to the quality and to the farming methods, there can be a considerable additional economic benefit to the Zulu community. And especially because they have
been involved in the livestock industry over centuries, this is the one aspect where an effective programme of upgrading can be most effective in the short to medium term.


One of the problems that is being experienced at the moment in substantial areas is the considerable amount of overgrazing and the consequent deterioration of the soil quality and the erosion
of the soil.


THE SPEAKER: 20 seconds.


MR V A VOLKER: This is an aspect to which I believe the Department should pro-actively give a considerable amount of additional attention. I just want to say that I appreciate that the
Minister and his Department are intending to give attention to this aspect. I thank you.
                                                                                                 4007


THE SPEAKER: The next member is Mrs Thakur-Rajbansi. She is not in the Chamber. Mrs Downs not in the Chamber. Mr Qoma not in the Chamber. Hon Mr Slabbert, you have two
minutes.


MR J H SLABBERT: NOT ON RECORD.


THE SPEAKER: The next member to deliberate is hon member Mr Krog. You have four minutes.


MR J KROG: Thank you, Mr Speaker. In evaluating the performance of the Department of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs, the vision, mission and strategic aims of the Department must
be the yardstick. This must be considered within the framework of the priorities set by the Executive, of which I consider the most important to be ensuring employment opportunities.


As I will indicate in my address on the adjustment estimates, this can only be achieved by professional performance audits of departments by the Auditor-General, interrogated by the portfolio
committees and Finance Committee of this House.


The question arises, do we get value for the money we spend? The focus of the Department for 2003/2004 was to form public/private partnerships and to promote the KwaZulu-Natal
Agricultural Trust to ensure food security. That was in terms of the Blue Book.


I would have liked to have had a report from the Department and the MEC on the service delivery targets as expressed in the Blue Book.


The MEC must be complimented on implementing a mechanisation programme. Although this may mean job losses, it can ensure better productivity in agriculture and can contribute to food
security. Empowering emerging farmers and farmer unions this way is a step forward and money will be spent well if emerging farmers' excellence is rewarded in the marketplace and they
become owners and title holders of the land that they plough and sow.


The Eradication of Alien Vegetation Programme must be drastically increased to meet the initiatives and the priorities set in employment creation.


In Ezemvelo KwaZulu-Natal Wildlife, this Province has an asset that we must cherish and support. With more than 90 protected areas which include the Drakensberg, Umfolozi, Hluhluwe
Game Park, and St Lucia Wetland, we can be proud of the achievements of the past. The major investment announced by Mr Valli Moosa in St Lucia is proof of opportunities we must use.


This Legislature will have to increase its baseline budget for conservation and invest in a major maintenance upgrade of facilities to protect this asset.


The revitalising of the livestock industry, as has been explained by hon Mr Volker, and soil fertilisation programmes will only work if individual emerging farmers are given title to the land, and
enjoy the fruits of their efforts.
                                                                                                 4008


THE SPEAKER: A minute left.


MR J KROG: Communal farming is not the most productive approach and the Department's Land Reform Programmes must take this into account.


Mr Speaker, it would have been useful for the Portfolio Committees of Agriculture and Finance to be interviewed to see if they met their targets. This was not done and I am left with the distinct
feeling that it was politically motivated as during the previous year they were interviewed and called back at least three times.


Mr Speaker, this Department has opportunities to meet the priorities set for employment, poverty alleviation and the other priorities and must have our support. I thank you.


THE SPEAKER: The next member to deliberate is hon member Mr Mackenzie. You have five minutes.


MR M M MACKENZIE: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would like to correct an error on the speaker's list because it is vital to anyone with a Scots heritage. McK belongs to that branch of
McKenzies who were sheep stealers. [LAUGHTER] MacK, which is us, we are the cattle thieves.


The Minister is to be congratulated on the succinct report of his Department so far this year. We must always remember that he has only recently taken over this Department from the hon
Singh. The transformation that is already taking place is obvious to all who hold agriculture dear. The new Head of Department, Dr Mjwara has buckled down to his mammoth task. And, in
addition to this, a large-scale filling of posts has recently taken place. One must ask why this is only taking place now and not before under the last Minister, or is there some other reason which
escapes us?


Rural agriculture is very close to my heart and I will only be satisfied when comprehensive plans are installed for a systematic development procedure. To this end several proposals have been
made for consideration by the Department and we await the response impatiently. I say impatiently because the plight of the rural poor can only be addressed by comprehensive and practical
plans for land use schemes.


These selfsame schemes were put forward to the last Department and were swept aside by grandiose plans that have still come to naught. Let this not be the case again because the poor
complain to us as their politicians.


A document on suggested rural imperatives was submitted to the Head of Department some six weeks ago and a reply is eagerly awaited with hopefully, a constructive meeting to follow on the
contents.


Agriculture is a very important delivery tool and to this end there is a need to offer the land hungry, the rural poor and those who would farm, a full service of assistance starting with the
aspirations and then the best form of corporate ownership and how to form it.
                                                                                                4009


The selection of the right land, which is based on viability, and the training of the aspirant land user, the financing of the venture preferably through a co-operative linked to a mentorship
programme, the compilation of a business plan, all of these elements should come in a package as one would expect in a one-stop shopping system.


Over and above all this, it must be acknowledged that constant guidance will be necessary. The co-operative system with its built-in proviso of savings by members has been proved to be very
successful in Kenya, where I was a month ago. It covers a multitude of different activities, but essentially it is small savings building into big assets by the discipline of members of each co-
operative.


It is strongly suggested that the Department of Agriculture create a section that only concentrates on the co-operative systems of land use and to develop a working model to suit KwaZulu-
Natal. Those of us who have been exposed to this in Kenya will of course assist. There is also a Kenya Co-operative College which has stated its willingness to work with us in the training of
future managers and administrators.


If you look around this House, there are many, many empty seats, but every single one in this House has to eat on a daily basis. I believe that Agriculture is taken for granted. I believe that it is
downgraded into some activity that dirties your hands.


THE SPEAKER: A minute left.


MR M M MACKENZIE: I therefore say, do not ever criticise a farmer when you have got a mouth full. Thank you, Mr Speaker.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: The next member to deliberate is hon member Mrs kaNkosi-Shandu. You have three minutes.


MRS E E N KANKOSI-SHANDU: (Whip): Baba Somlomo, ngifisa okokuqala ukubonga kuNgqongqoshe ukuthi ingadi ebizwa ngokuthi Omakhelwane Olundi isithole ukuxhaswa njengamanje
izofakelwa amanzi enkasa. Siyabonga Mhlonishwa. Ngifisa ukukhumbuza uMhlonishwa futhi ukuthi umthetho okuthiwa u-91 ka-1981 yiwo ophetho ukusungulwa, ukusebenza nokuphathwa
kwama-Co-operatives. Okwamanje uphansi koMnyango wakho Ngqongqoshe.


Ezinye zezinto ezikwazi ukwenziwa ngama Co-ops:


*        Ukuqoqa zonke izinhlangano zabalimi njengama-clubs nezitokofela zenziwe zibe semthethweni ngokuba zirejistwe ukuze abantu babenelungelo lokusebenza ngemali ezweni lakithi.


*        Ukufundisa abalimi ukuba baqoqe imali yokusebenza kubo bayonge. Bafundiswe futhi ukuyiphatha nokuyeboleka kubo ukuze bangavinjwa imigomo yamabhange efuna izibambiso
         nxa beyoboleka izimali abangenazo.
                                                                                               4010




*        Bakhiqize emhlabathini, emfuyweni, nakwezemvelo futhi bamakethe ngokubambisana imikhiqizo yabo njengebhizinisi elikhulu ayi izicagogwana lezi ezenzekayo njengamanje.


*        Ngaphezu kwakho konke bazuze uqeqesho Mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe kulomkhakha wama-Co-operatives.


Okwamanje uMnyango wakho Mhlonishwa ngiyadabuka ukusho ukuthi awukhombisi ukuba nolwazi kulomkhakha wama-Co-ops, futhi awukhombisi ukuba nothando lokuzimisela ukuthi ama-
Co-operatives asebenze. Lokhu kuyangikhathaza kakhulu ngoba ilona hlelo olungenza ukuba abantu ababengenawo amathuba bavuleke amehlo okwangempela.


Kodwa futhi lolulwazi lokuqeqesha abantu lukhona lapha emphakathini wakithi KwaZulu-Natali. Sicela amasango avuleke kakhulu. Avulekile ukungeniswa kwamandla okuzisiza ngempela
kwabantu ngama-Co-operatives bese uMnyango uyaluxhasa lolohlelo. Thina bafazi balapha KwaZulu-Natali namadodakazi ethu sithi uma ufuna ukubona ezolimo ziqhubeka ngoba ithina
esibeka ukudla phambi kwabantu. Xhasa loluhlelo Mhlonishwa lwama-Co-operatives uzobona ummangaliso. Umnyango lona owushoyo wezulu uvuleke okwangempela kudliwe kwesuthwe
singaphinde sibe nendlala nezisu amapaklaklana zabantu. Ngiyabonga Mhlonishwa. [UHLEKO]


TRANSLATION: Mr Speaker, I first wish to thank the Minister that the garden called Omakhelwane (the Neighbours) at Ulundi has been supported as the irrigation scheme and is to be put in
place. Thank you hon Minister. I also wish to remind the hon Minister that the provisions of Act 91 of 1981 deal with creation, operation and administration of Co-operatives. For now it is under
your Department, Mr Minister.


Some of the things the Co-ops can do:


*        To bring together all farmer's organisations like clubs and savings clubs (stokvels) to be legalised by registering them for them to be able to work with money in our country.


*        To educate the farmers to collect funds and save them. They must also be taught to handle and lend it to avoid stringent conditions of banking institutions who want forms of security
         from those who borrow money that they do not have.


*        To produce from soil, stock and natural produce and market collectively their produce like a big business, not in dribs and drabs as is now the case.


*        Over and above that hon Minister, they obtain training in Co-operatives.


As it is now Mr Minister, I am afraid to say your Department does not seem to bear any knowledge in as far as Co-ops are concerned, and it does not look like it has any interest for Co-
operatives to work. That is a great cause for concern to me because that is the programme which would benefit those who were disadvantaged.


But the know-how to train people is available in our community of KwaZulu-Natal. We ask for the gates to be wide open. They are open for the ability of people to help themselves with Co-
                                                                                                4011


operatives and for the Department to give support to the programme. We, the women of KwaZulu-Natal, and our daughters, say so, if you want to see progress in agriculture since we are the
ones who put food on the tables. Support the Co-operative programmes hon Minister, you will see wonders. The door of heaven you are referring to will really be opened and people will have
sufficient food and never ever be victims of hunger, and people will have big stomachs. Thank you sir. [LAUGHTER] T/E


THE SPEAKER: I will now allow the hon Minister to reply to the debate. You have 10 minutes to do so, hon Minister.


MR D H MAKHAYE: (Minister of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will not respond to all members who have contributed to this debate but, firstly, to the
hon member Mrs Nkonyeni and the hon member Mrs kaNkosi-Shandu. They raised the issue of co-operatives. I think it is quite critical that we pay attention to this concept. There is a political
party - I will not mention the name - that keeps on talking about co-operatives. Immediately after I was appointed as the MEC for Agriculture and Environmental Affairs - that political party is not
represented here, by the way - I approached that party to assist even at a level of conceptualisation. But I am convinced they were just making slogans about co-operatives.


I would therefore suggest that perhaps we arrange a meeting between the two members that have spoken on this concept of co-operatives, together with my Head of Department and myself, so
that we really sit down and understand the concept and look at the business plan. Who can provide training? Where are these co-operatives? What form and shape should they take? The
reason why we have not been able to meet is precisely because a day has only got 24 hours. These are some of the things that pass. You know that they are important but unfortunately the
day only has 24 hours.


But we must pay serious attention, especially because I believe that women will play a critical role in this co-operative movement, as it happens everywhere in the world.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MR D H MAKHAYE: (Minister of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs): It therefore assists our target group which has been historically discriminated against over centuries, our women.


Thank you for reporting that your organisation Omakhelwane has finally been assisted. I was interested in that project because in my reports it was indicated that it was funded some time ago,
but I knew that did not take place. Perhaps that is why some people have decided to assist your organisation, because I was following that up.


Mr Naicker talked about a sugar mill which is 75 years old. We will also look at that. But let me warn that it is important that we take agriculture as a business, not as a habit, as something you
would do for cultural reasons. And if indeed it is a business, it does mean that we must have an element of research. We must know what the sugar industry will be in 10 years time. We must
understand the concept of risk and return and prepare for such eventualities.


The problem is that you generally ensure your business against any calamity, but when it comes to agriculture people just do not do that, do not take such measures. They think they will run to
the government and say there has been this calamity now so the government must assist. But of course it may mean reducing the salaries of members of Parliament in order to fund that
because we do not as government have money hidden away. But we will look at that and perhaps we will need to have a one-on-one discussion with the hon member.
                                                                                                4012




Revitalising livestock. We have this programme of dip tanks, but of course among our own people, especially the African majority in this Province, we will also have to deal with the cultural
legacy where our people keep cattle until they are very, very old because to them this is pride. We must look at cattle, we must look at our livestock as an economic asset rather than as a
cultural or an asset simply for pride, because by the time you take your cattle to the market, if they are too old they do not give you any money. And then we complain. So we must be able to
say within three years this cow or this bull must have been sold.


Mr Krog, the hon member, talked about employment opportunities. I really agree with him. Value for Money Mechanisation Programme will not reduce the rate of employment in our case. We
believe that correctly approached it will actually raise the number of people employed in agriculture, of course with the necessary requisite skills. That is why my Department is in partnership
with the Department of Transport in terms of providing tractor drivers on the farms with recognised driving skills. That is part of it. We do that free of charge. Unfortunately we cannot be
everywhere on one day.


He mentioned Ezemvelo KZN Wildlife. Well, they are doing a very good job but I think they can do better.


THE SPEAKER: A minute left.


MR D H MAKHAYE: (Minister of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs): The very fact that they could not submit audited financial statements, which is against the PFMA, should be a
source of concern to all of us. This organisation must not be regarded as a holy cow that it can do as it likes. After all I have met with all the departmental heads and management and we are
agreed that we must re-identify the core business of this organisation so that we are not involved in areas that are not our core function.


Mr Mackenzie spoke about the redistribution of land. That is what we will be doing. Thank you.


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mrs Cronje?


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, I am afraid I have to actually ask for your indulgence again and I want to do it with a most sincere apology to yourself and to the House. The
Whips are put in a difficult situation when we receive last minute requests. We do entertain reasonable requests if it does not inconvenience anybody. But at the same time I actually want to
make a very sincere plea to our MECs to bear in mind that the House consists of 80 members and eight parties and changes affect every single member who has had the programme for some
time and has made plans accordingly.


Nevertheless we did agree to accommodate a last minute change and I do want to thank all the parties most sincerely. I know that Mr Bhamjee has been inconvenienced. I know that the NNP
has been inconvenienced. I see they are not in the House. I know that Mrs Ambler-Moore has been inconvenienced. So I really do apologise most sincerely and ask you to accept it and to
understand that the Whips are caught between different interests and different demands and that we sometimes have to compromise. But I think, Mr Speaker, we must appeal that these
requests must be kept to a minimum.
                                                                                               4013




Having said that, and I am sorry to have taken some time but I felt it was necessary to say it, we have agreed to accommodate Local Government as the next debate. So 8.3, Mr Speaker, the
debate on the report from the MEC for Local Government, will now become 8.2. And original 8.1, the debate on the report from Economic Development and Tourism, will now become 8.3. And
with the permission of the House, that is what we would then move.


THE SPEAKER: Since this has been agreed to by the Chief Whips, we will move accordingly. We will now debate the report of the Minister of Local Government.


8.2       DEBATE: REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF TRADITIONAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS AND SAFETY AND SECURITY IN TERMS OF RULE 10(4)


THE SPEAKER: To start the debate I will call upon hon member Mrs Ambler-Moore. You have four minutes.


MRS M AMBLER-MOORE: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I assure the hon Cronje that I am not a bit inconvenienced. I am very honoured to kick this debate off. I think it is indicative of how
important our party is becoming.


I want to thank the Minister for his report and, Mr Speaker, this country, in our opinion, will succeed or fail on the strength of local government. To us, local government is the most important
sphere of government. It is where our people interact with their leaders and we in this Province are duty bound to make sure that local government works. And in fact it is in the Constitution, as
we all know.


I was very encouraged to read in the Minister's report about the progress made by Provincial Departments. I believe that this Department of Local Government in the Province is underrated and
the work done is not really appreciated by us in this House.


This Department's main focus is creating and maintaining financial stability within the local government sphere by instituting programmes that assist municipalities to manage their financial
affairs in an effective, efficient and economical manner. The way they have done it so far I believe is excellent and this Department, having reached its target of 40% of municipalities being
financially viable I think is to be congratulated.


It was interesting yesterday, Mr Speaker, to hear the hon Minister of Economic Development and Tourism in his report stressing the emphasis on local development and locally driven
partnerships. Let me quote him. He said:


          It is at the local level where capacity is needed and where jobs can be created.


That is also one of the reasons why local government is so important.
                                                                                               4014


But, Mr Speaker, as we all know, local government is in trouble. Pick up any newspaper any day and there is an article on one or other local government's problems. Shocking goings on in
Kokstad. A building built last December/January in Harding for municipal offices, no council authorisation, no money voted and to this day it stands empty. Bergville or Okhahlamba as it is
called, is something again. The municipal manager is still on suspension and what goes on there makes your hair stand on end. Umtshezi or Estcourt - recently an audit has revealed that in a
year's time, if they carry on as they are, they could be bankrupt.


Mr Speaker, I do not believe we should think that all is rosy with Durban. Too often that Unicity is found abusing the procurement process. Too often there has been abuse in applying the
employment equity. Good people are being overlooked for important jobs in favour of political cronies. I am not sure what we as a Province can do, but we on this side of the House, I want the
Unicity to know, are watching.


Mr Speaker, I will not take all my time. I just want to thank that Department. I think they have a lot of work ahead of them. Umsekeli is doing a good job - let us hope that they carry on with the
capacity building, training people where they need training, and I would like to thank them. Thank you.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you. Kambe kuzokwenziwanjani. [By the way, what is to be done]?


MR A RAJBANSI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to compliment the hon ...


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Mr Rajbansi, hold on, there is this technology that if you do not preside on a regular basis, you get confused. You need to work on it almost every day in order for you
to be fine. Now the hon member Mr Rajbansi can take his three minutes.


MR A RAJBANSI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to in a very friendly way comment on the nasty comment made by the hon member Margaret Ambler-Moore. I have monitored the
appointment of every senior official in the eThekwini Municipality and the only complaint that was made in The Mercury the following day was by a DA councillor serving on the Executive
Committee and she let herself down by listing the names of whites who she felt should have been promoted.


For the first time in history a few weeks ago the eThekwini Municipality promoted about 90 people to Deputy Directors. There have been more quotas for whites, 29 whites, 29 Indians and I
think the black community must complain.


I want to compliment the hon MEC in charge of Local Government and I think he has a set of fine officials, a well run Department and, as has been said previously, they have been providing
support services to municipalities and district councils that have been set up.


But I want to make an appeal to the hon MEC. We are dealing with the planning legislation. We do not have our Development Facilitation Legislation in place because of National, but we have
                                                                                                  4015


a Town Planning Ordinance that was passed in 1949, which we are still using. I believe through you, Mr Speaker, to the MEC, let us initiate at least some amendments to that outdated Town
Planning Ordinance.


I want to deal with Umsekeli. There is widespread dissatisfaction that in respect of the re-organising and restructuring of that component of the Minister's Department, certain senior officials
from a particular race group are protecting themselves and feathering their own nests, contrary to an agreement that was reached with the unions. The main sufferers are South Africans of
black origin and South Africans of Indian origin. This is being done blatantly.
Local government is very important and I want to make an appeal to the hon MEC. Previously when a town clerk was appointed, his salary was determined according to a national formula.
There are no national guidelines for salaries of senior municipal officials, whether they be manager, deputy manager, etcetera. The time is now ripe that we have a guideline so that
municipalities cannot take the law into their own hands. In spite of the fact that there are complaints, there are decisions being implemented without the authority of the council. On the whole,
the report which the Minister's Department has given us, gives us good marks for the Province as a whole.


There are certain towns in the Northern Natal area that are run down. We believe that with the assistance of the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism, we have to revitalise certain
towns. Otherwise there will be migration to Pietermaritzburg, eThekwini, etcetera. Thank you.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: In the absence of the hon member Volker, in the absence of hon J Downs, in the permanent absence of member S Qoma, and in the absence of hon member
Mr Slabbert, the next speaker will be Mr Panday who will deliberate for eight minutes.


MR K PANDAY: Mr Speaker, the midterm budget presented by the hon Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and Security is of importance as it pinpoints the
challenges and successes of the Department. It is a wide-ranging and meticulous effort that needs to be commended. It is an honest account of the activities and the future plans of the
Department. The hon Minister has always been honest and diligent in his duties and reports to this House.


The transformation of every department, not only local government, has been the priority of our democratic government since 1994 as the legacies of apartheid need to be eliminated. The
various Acts of Parliament have set up a legal framework upon which implementation needs to be based, especially in regard to the Integrated Development Plans that are the basic
transformatory vehicles that will carry the way forward for both municipalities and our people.


In this instance I feel that it is incumbent upon this House to congratulate the hon Minister for making our Province the first to publish the Minister's allocation of powers and functions. This was
done by way of Provincial Notice No 468 of 2002.


Mr Speaker, I have stated on several occasions that although solid and wise leadership in local government is of paramount importance, the administrative and organisational machinery of the
Department is the basis of tangible and sustainable service and delivery. Hence capacity building of human resources is of paramount importance. And we note that the Department has done
well at this level, as the municipal capacity support programmes indicate.
                                                                                                 4016


We all know there have been weaknesses and shortfalls in municipalities and these need to be rectified within the structural financial constraints set by the Treasury. The municipalities
allocated these capacity exercises have shown that this can only become a success when there is embracing and co-operation at all levels.


The Integrated Development Planning could only be a success through meticulous capacity building and training programmes at all levels of operation, which at the moment have been
extended to include the first 12 local municipalities. Thus it can be seen, that the whole programme is in motion, and the success will depend on the diligent implementation of the procedures
and rules associated with the various legal and practical requirements of the exercise.


We need to commend the hon Minister and his Department on winning the Premier's Best Practice Award in 2002 in relation to the Department's electronic monitoring and management
assistance programme that enables all municipalities to connect to the Provincial Department via the Internet, especially in submitting financial data.


The same is true of the initiation of the Management Assistance Programme that is currently running in 15 municipalities as well as the district information management system which is
heralded as the best practice by Australian local government experts.


These important and innovative management systems, coupled with the intensive training implemented by the Department targeting the executive committees of 61 municipalities will definitely
be instrumental in the relentless fight against corruption that has become one of the most hideous and detrimental problems in our society, and local government in particular.


Thus the swift action of the hon Minister in the cases of Kokstad and Dannhauser needs to be complimented. We have all agreed throughout the years that corruption needs to be completely
eradicated from our municipalities, and this can be better achieved through continuous and careful monitoring of all systems, functions and practices at all levels of local government. Hence the
monitoring systems put in place for the Department and the provisional auditing of 10 municipalities augurs well for the future of clean and efficient administration at local level.


These systems will ultimately eradicate the lack of commitment to accountable local government by some councillors and officials. We cannot and should not tolerate malpractices and lack of
transparency and accountability on the part of local councillors and their leadership. Otherwise our people will judge us harshly.


Mr Speaker, as stated earlier, the key objective and the aim of every Department, including local government, is a solid and widespread delivery of services to our people with special emphasis
on the poorest of the poor and our rural population that has faced the wrath of the apartheid regime. Thus we salute the commitment and implementation of the Consolidated Municipal
Infrastructure Programme that has approved 644 projects to the value of R1,75 billion. In this way water, sanitation, roads, solid waste, community lighting and facilities, as well as municipal
capacity building will be achieved in the near future.


It is important to state here that our Province continues to lead the country in infrastructure delivery. It is envisaged that by the end of the present financial year the Department will achieve
100% expenditure of the budget allocated for infrastructure delivery. This means that by the end of 2005 and 2006, the Department would put R2,9 billion worth of infrastructure in our
communities to the benefit of our people. This is an achievement that must be applauded by all in this House. This means that the alleviation of poverty, the number one priority of our
government, will be supplemented by the diligent provision of free basic services through the Department's indigent support programme.
                                                                                                 4017




Coupled with these noble initiatives is the implementation of drought relief programmes that have provided emergency water supplies to victims of the drought. Such programmes will have to
continue as scientific research has indicated that the drought will most certainly continue in the months to come.
In terms of disaster management, steps have been undertaken and it is widely accepted that KZN leads the way. This is why several other provinces have shown a keen interest in our unique
concept of service delivery at this level.


In conclusion, Mr Speaker, one must admit that the achievements of the Department are wide and varied. There have been very serious successes in the fight against poverty and degradation,
the strengthening of solid governance, investment in job creation and the infrastructure as well as human capacity development.


We need to be critical in our evaluations and assessments in the context of our co-operative government, but it needs to be said that the Department of Local Government has shown strong
and decisive leadership and many noble achievements in our struggle for growth, development and progress. I thank you.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. The next member that will deliberate for nine minutes is hon Inkosi Y Bhamjee.


MR Y S BHAMJEE: Thank you, Mr Speaker. First of all, let me just respond to the hon Ambler-Moore. By default you were the first speaker. Secondly your Whip said that you were perturbed
or that you had to rush and come in to speak. So I would suggest that you speak to your Whip and do not mislead this House.


Secondly, in terms of corruption, etcetera, let me effectively say true, the DA must also recognise the fact that you are politically involved in stealing the Exco seats in Ingwe, Richards Bay and
Empangeni municipalities where you are now in cahoots with the IFP, saying that you deserve a particular seat and you are now using the backdoor to gain political power, and I think you must
get your house in order.


I suppose you are effectively saying and taking into consideration the MEC's position on what he declared, the IFP and DA which sets the tone for excellent co-operation in the local government
sphere, both parties are parties of principle which share a commonality, effectively meaning that together you will come and together you will deny other parties the legitimate right to occupy
Exco positions in terms of the quota. I trust, being the good Christian that you are, that you will investigate and take corrective measures.


AN HON MEMBER: INTERJECTION.


MR Y S BHAMJEE: Mr Speaker, it is a correct interpretation and I challenge anyone in this House to challenge me outside this House. I also wish to state categorically, Mr Speaker, as far as
Kokstad is concerned, the notice which the hon MEC sent out -the letter goes out in his name and says:


          I have to inform you that the Minister of Traditional Affairs, Safety and Security and of Local Government has in terms of section 106(1)(b) of the Local Government Municipal Systems
          Act, Act 32 of 2000, authorised an investigation at the municipality to cover the following matters:
                                                                                                4018




         (i)       issues surrounding appointment of the Municipal Manager, Mr Tubane;


         (ii)      loans to councillors;


         (iii)   levels of payment of councillor allowances;


         (iv)      statutory fund contributions;


         (v)       issues surrounding the costs and additional staffing structures, any other consequential irregular matters which may be revealed during the investigation.


The ANC is not opposed to any sort of investigation. The ANC welcomes it. In fact it was the ANC who initiated the investigation. However, the hon MEC did not subscribe to what is called the
Municipal Systems Act which says that an MEC issuing a notice in terms of subsection 1(a) or designating to a person to conduct an investigation in terms of subsection 1(b) of the Municipal
Systems Act must submit a written statement to the National Council of Provinces motivating the action. In his communication with the Kokstad Municipality - his letter and his communication is
found wanting. We are saying that the procedures are incorrect.


Effectively what the hon MEC and his Department are doing, they are using bully-boy tactics to go into other municipalities and are threatening people that this is what they are going to do,
hence destabilising the whole area.


What they should have effectively done is to make sure that there is a MAP programme, because that was the understanding. You are now going against the grain of your own expectations,
against your own policies of ensuring that there is good governance. I strongly appeal hon MEC, if you were not aware of this, you are now made aware to ensure that there is good
governance, because you, by your own submission, recognise the fact that the process must go via the Public Protector. This process is still in place.


We are not opposed to any form of exposure of corruption if there is any. But we are saying, follow the procedures. Why am I emphasising that? I am emphasising the fact that in Dannhauser
you had the Majake Commission, when the hon Peter Miller was the MEC. And then it had to go on and came onto your lap. It clearly declared that the affairs in Dannhauser were rotten to the
core.


It said that the mayor there was not fit for political office. It declared that the mayor there was operating as a Mafia. It declared that loans were going on there unabated, and he was doing his
own thing. And then the Majake Commission said that if you are interested in good governance, you must make sure that you move in the direction of appointing an administrator. Total
silence. Nothing has happened and what happens, instead of appointing good people, you are talking about municipal managers. That hon mayor was then appointed as a municipal manager
where their own Commission said that he was corrupt and was not fit for any political office.
                                                                                                 4019


Effectively what you are now saying, hon MEC, you need to make sure that you get your house in order. There is no sense in spending millions of rands on investigations and nothing is being
done. The logical conclusion of any study or forensic investigation requires that you must implement the process of 106(1)(b) to ensure that it goes via the NCOP. You and your Department
are found wanting.


In the last portfolio committee I made it very clear to this Department that, please, we know what is happening. Come forward and tell us what is happening. We asked for the report. The
reports were not tabled. We are saying we build a good relationship with the Department, but now I am forced to think again. Selected information is given to us. Why was the Majake
Commission report not tabled to the portfolio committee? Why was the Majake Commission report not tabled to this particular House?


Why in Okhahlamba and other areas are you initiating forensic reports, and yet you are giving time to those municipalities who are corrupt, to clear their house and to make sure that they have
authentic papers, which a forensic audit or the NCOP would accept and will take the investigation to its logical conclusion? Why are you offering them time to get rid of the information? Why
are you not effectively putting systems in place?


Put in place your good governance processes but do not mislead the portfolio committee. Do not mislead the Chairperson of the portfolio committee, because I made it clear to the committee
that we know what is happening now. We want you to come out clearly in terms of good governance. For the first time the Department has to be doubted, and I trust now I will not have to make
sure that every time you say something I will have to look at it from the other side.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR Y S BHAMJEE: Mr Speaker, let me effectively say to you in all these municipalities. We have in Okhahlamba, iNdondakusuka, at Umtshezi, it clearly says there is total corruption.
Effectively there is a violation of tender regulations, blatant disregard for council resolutions detailing financial and administrative control procedures, the unauthorised use of conditional grants,
the failure to perform bank reconciliations, complete absence of procurement policy. Why is Kokstad isolated? Is it a political motive?


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR Y S BHAMJEE: There is corruption all over in these IFP run municipalities. Why are you silent? We are saying to this House here, the time has come hon MEC. Do not let the good work
that you have done flow down the gutter. We are effectively saying that if you are honourable to your position, you will ensure that you give effect to the Constitution.


The Constitution also says that once you put this forensic process in place, you need to ensure that you inform NCOP. To do so, you must make sure that your monitoring systems are in place.
We have been calling on you to put your monitoring systems in place. Up to today no policy position is clear. It says here to put in place a legal process. Nothing is there.


You say you are using your own monitoring process. What is your own monitoring process? We need to know what the monitoring process is. And there is no policy. We have been calling for
this policy position for too long. So do not use bully-boy tactics to go out there and hassle Kokstad. We are saying hassle all municipalities where there is corruption and the ANC will support
                                                                                                 4020


you.


You paid thousands of rand for the Majake Commission report and then you shelve it. They say the man is a gangster, he is a Mafia, he bullies people, he fires people, creates new job
opportunities for people who are unqualified, and then you appoint him as a municipal manager!


And R170 000 odd is paid to Amakhosi. For what? R175 000 is paid to Amakhosi falsely. Right? The MSGM report says the money must be recovered. The Auditor-General says it must be
regained immediately. Why is this Department silent? Even to the Public Accounts Committee and Finance Committee we posed these questions. We have not had suitable answers.


By keeping quiet the Department and the officials are aiding and abetting corruption and this process must stop. Because if you are talking about clean and open governance, you have no
choice. You must come out in the clear. Do not tell us you have the computer system in place. You are scared to go in and take corrective measures. As long as you do not get rid of the
corrupt individuals, no matter how good a system you put in place, there will be corruption.


Mr Speaker, through you, the MEC has not subscribed to the correct procedures. He must do so. We do not want to find tomorrow that the money he is spending on investigations ...


THE ACTING SPEAKER: The member's time is up.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE ACTING SPEAKER: The next member will be hon MEC Inkosi Ngubane who will respond for 10 minutes.


INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and Security): First and foremost let me thank the hon members for the way in which they have
debated my report and also thank the Whips for re-arranging the whole programme to give me sufficient time to deal with these matters before I leave.


With regard to the hon member Mrs Ambler-Moore, I want to thank the hon member for exposing the true reflection of my Department. That is what we are doing there. Those municipalities
that have wronged are being severely dealt with, and there are some municipalities and individuals who will soon face prosecution.


As far as the hon member Mr Rajbansi is concerned, I would like to thank the hon member. We will be dealing with all his concerns about the Town Planning Ordinance. With regard to
guidelines there are guidelines, some coming from National and others coming from the Province. But as guidelines, the hon member should know that they are just ordinary guidelines and
municipalities sometimes are not compelled to follow them. So we request the political parties to help us so that those guidelines are fulfilled by different parties in municipalities.


The hon member Mr Panday is correct to address the issue of the Integrated Development Programme. Yes, we have done well because of the excellent team that I have in the Department
though some of the people seem not to be noticing that.
                                                                                                4021




Yes, capacity building has been done in the Department. That is why we even received the Premier's Best Practice Award in that particular year, as far as the Department is concerned.


Kokstad and Dannhauser Municipalities are being dealt with and not only those municipalities, but other municipalities as well. I have given a long list of municipalities that are being
investigated. I do not know what the problem is with regard to that.


As far as the Drought Relief Programme is concerned, I will be dealing with that at the end of my reply here.


When it comes to the hon member, the Chairperson of my portfolio committee, Mr Bhamjee, I do not know if he deals with the matter of stealing seats here. He has never brought this matter to
my attention that there are municipalities where seats have been stolen. Stolen to where? Why do you not arrest those people then if you know that they are thieves. [LAUGHTER] I do not
know of any thieves in municipalities. You are the Chair of the portfolio committee. You must advise me in the event of such things happening, not to come to the House and shout. You do not
even debate here. You shout, you shout, I am sorry to say, like a lady. I am sorry to say that, because it is only ladies who shout ...


MRS N P NKONYENI: (Whip): Objection, objection! What do you mean?


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: The hon MEC ...


INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and Security): Are you not shouting even now?


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Hon MEC, will you take your seat and listen. Hon member Mr Gwala, there shall be order in this House. Let us hear what hon member Mrs Nkonyeni is standing on.
Proceed, hon member. On what Rule are you standing?


MRS N P NKONYENI: (Whip): On a point of order.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Proceed.


MRS N P NKONYENI: (Whip): Could the hon Minister please withdraw the words "shouting like a lady" because it is a sexist utterance. We totally object to that.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: The Constitution of South Africa requires that all structures and all offices will be non-racial and non-sexist. As that is regarded as a sexist kind of remark, we will
request the Minister to withdraw that because it is unconstitutional.
                                                                                              4022




INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and Security): I withdraw that, Speaker.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you. Proceed, hon MEC.


INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and Security): I think when we debate here we must never expose ourselves with emotions.
The hon member, Mr Bhamjee, as I have said, rather than debating the report, he was just shouting. I did not even hear what he was saying. He was speaking so quickly and shouting.


AN HON MEMBER: Like animals.


INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and Security): Oh, I did not say that. This is not a place for exposing anger. This is not a place
for exposing animosity. Here we are hon members. We are here to debate. We are here to advise departments. We are here to advise Ministers.


If the hon member says the mayor of Dannhauser was not fit to be in political office, then who appointed the mayor? Was it Inkosi Ngubane who appointed the mayor? If you say he was not fit,
then why did you not inform me about that? Why have you failed to come to my office as the Chair of the portfolio committee in order to discuss these issues? Even now if I look at your face,
you are very angry. I do not know why? [LAUGHTER] Are you coming too - so that I can run away? [LAUGHTER]


If there was any violation of the tender regulations, as you said within the other municipalities and then you asked why are we then only dealing specifically with Kokstad? I know Kokstad is an
ANC led municipality. As I have said, Kokstad is not the only municipality that is being investigated. But to some of our colleagues on the ANC side, they do not want my Department even to
consider any investigations into any ANC led municipality. Why, I really do not know. But I am happy that you know most of the ANC members are not like that. It is only a small clique, those
people who perhaps ...


AN HON MEMBER: INTERJECTION.


INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and Security): Yes, those people who perhaps will eventually be involved in the final
investigations of these municipalities. Therefore the hon member must feel at home. It is not him.


Another thing that the hon member should do is to go out and canvass for the elections. I know next year we will be voting and the hon member, rather than criticising me where really I do not
have power to do what he expects from me, he must wait for the elections. Perhaps his party will win the elections and then he will be the next Minister of Provincial and Local Government
Affairs in the Province.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.
                                                                                              4023




INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and Security): Therefore he must wait for that. The time will come for that.


Yesterday, I, together with the hon Minister of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs in the Province, my colleague Mr Makhaye, attended a meeting called by both the Minister of Provincial and
Local Government Affairs and the Minister of Water and Forestry. The aim of the meeting was to deal with the drought situation in the Province.


After some discussions there, the Province was allocated the sum of R40 million, of which R21,600 million was immediately given to the Province as the first tranche. The remainder will follow.
The allocation which was done by the National Departments is as follows:


        Ugu District Council received the amount of R1 600 000


        Umgungundlovu received the amount of R1 520 000


        Uthukela District received the amount of R2 850 000


        Mzinyathi R2 550 000


        Amajuba R300 000


        Newcastle R300 000


        Zululand R3 375 000


        Umkhanyakude R2 175 000


        Uthungulu R2 250 000


        Ilembe R2 180 000


        Sisonke R2 500 000


These distributions have got nothing to do with hon Minister Makhaye and me. The whole allocation was done at national level, but we are very grateful for such an allocation because it means
                                                                                                  4024


our people will be partly relieved of this terrible drought situation in the Province.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Local Government Affairs and Safety and Security): I would like to thank the hon members for the manner in which the report was
debated, including the hon Chair of my portfolio committee as well. Thank you very much.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon MEC. During the course of the speech I received a short note from the hon member Mr Bhamjee, according to Rule 106, which states that:


(1)       The Presiding Officer must permit an explanation during debate when a Member verbally alleges that a material part of his or her speech has been misquoted or misunderstood, but
          the Member is not permitted to introduce any new matter.


(2)       The Presiding Officer may, upon receipt of a brief written request setting out the nature of the matter to be explained, permit a Member to explain a matter of a personal nature, but the
          Member must confine himself or herself strictly to the vindication of his or her own conduct.


(3)       The Presiding Officer may, upon receipt of a brief written request setting out the nature of the matter to be explained and on the terms and conditions which the Presiding Officer
          deems fit, permit an explanation on any other matter.


The note I received is written but I cannot read it.


MR Y S BHAMJEE: NOT ON RECORD.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: No, I want you, as it is written, if you could read your handwriting so that I can make my ruling with a full understanding. You read it verbatim. You do not add, you
do not subtract.


          I wish to use Rule 106 to clear a point.


That is the note I received, that "I wish to use Rule 106 to clear a point." As I have read subsections (1), (2) and (3), I would assume, firstly, because it is not clear whether it is 106(1), (2) or (3)
that is written, I would assume that the member is requesting to use 106(2) because the first one reads:


          The Presiding Officer must permit an explanation during debate when a Member verbally alleges ..
                                                                                                 4025


So the member has not verbally alleged. So I would assume that he did not then use Rule 106(1); so I would assume that he used (2) because he has written the note. But (2) reads thus:


         The Presiding Officer may ...


So the discretion on this one is left to the Presiding Officer. The first one is a must. The second one is a may. So:


         The Presiding Officer may, upon receipt of a brief written request setting out the nature of the matter ...


In this the nature of the matter was not explained. It is only the point that is not known to the Presiding Officer. As such, because the Rule was not followed properly, that permission cannot be
granted to the member. So we will continue.


Here is the next debate. The problem that I am experiencing is that according to the re-scheduled and re-rescheduled order paper, and re-scheduled again, I have two speaker's lists for the
Debate on Report from Economic Development and Tourism. There are two. According to the first list, the first speaker will be Mrs Nkonyeni, followed by Mrs Ambler-Moore; the second one,
the first speaker will be Mrs Nkonyeni, followed by the hon member J Krog. So I do not know which is which.


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, if I may be of assistance.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, it is the second list that is correct. It is with regret that the error crept into the first one. The one with the hon Krog is correct.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: And that is the second one. It is clear that the Whips have been having a field day today in this House. They have been having a field day. They are lucky. They
have been chopping and changing today. The whole day they have been chopping and changing. They are very lucky.


Let us then continue with the debate on the Report on Economic Development and Tourism.


Then I will move to the next debate that will be led by the hon Mrs Nkonyeni for four minutes.


8.3      DEBATE: REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND TOURISM IN TERMS OF RULE 10(4)


MRS N P NKONYENI: (Whip): Mr Speaker, allow me to congratulate the hon Minister for Economic Development and Tourism, hon Mr Burrows, for a job well done. The report presented in
this House yesterday was a comprehensive one. In fact, Mr Burrows, hon Minister, you were very fortunate to have inherited a Department which was led by a young lion from the African
                                                                                                  4026


National Congress, the hon Mabuyakhulu. We are very grateful to him as well, because today in our constituencies, we are regarded as real hon members because there are existing and
sustainable projects we can point to and say Mabuyakhulu delivered this when he was still MEC for Economic Development and Tourism.


My special gratitude goes out to you, hon Minister Mr Burrows, for hosting the launch of the South African Women Entrepreneurs Network, which is SAWEN. It means a lot, Mr Minister to the
businesswomen of this Province.


I also want to thank your staff member, Khosi Mdletshe, who played a vital role in ensuring that the event was a successful one. Even Ms Mmabatho from the Department of Trade and Industry
commented by saying that it was the first of its kind. I wish that the Department of Economic Development and Tourism could commit itself in terms of empowering those few businesswomen of
our Province.


I was delighted to realise that the hon MEC understands the concept of the broad-based black economic empowerment policy because it simply means that the tide is turning. If the tide has not
yet turned in terms of black people participating in the economy of the country, your Department should ensure that it fast-tracks the turning of that tide.


Mr Minister and hon members, almost 80% of black people have flocked to the construction industry. Do you know why? It means that political heads of those departments committed
themselves to open up doors for black people in that particular industry.


There are so many other opportunities out there that could be grabbed and accessed by our black people, but because of closed doors, they are inaccessible. How many black people
understand property development? Facilities management? Fleet management? How many black people access opportunities in the ICT, that is information, communications and technology?
How many black people access opportunities in the maritime industry? In minerals and energy? In trade and investment? How many black companies are listed on the Johannesburg Stock
Exchange?


The question then is, what is the hon Minister doing about that? How often do you encourage white business gurus who flock to your corporate boardroom ...


THE ACTING SPEAKER: That is exactly what it means. The time is up. The next member who will deliberate for four minutes is hon Mr J Krog.


MR J KROG: Thank you, hon Speaker. The hon Nkonyeni, if she listens to what I am saying, will see what the MEC has done.


Mr Speaker, the Department has set a target to create in KwaZulu-Natal a thriving, globally competitive, economic environment with a high level of employment creating prosperity for all by
2020. That is their mission and vision in terms of the Blue Book.


To achieve this, the Department will need more funding. This is recognised by the Financial Portfolio Committee in its main budget report for the 2003/4 budget year. This has not been
achieved in the adjustment estimates. Hopefully this will be included in the first budget after the election.
                                                                                                  4027




Mr Speaker, the Department has indicated to the Economic Development Committee that it can rollout 40 000 new jobs, if the budget is made available.
With 85% of this budget being spent on social services and less and less on economic development and rewarding personal achievements, we are creating a society which has become
dependent on the government for its livelihood and not on its own initiatives to create wealth.


The government cannot create wealth but it can create a culture of dependency or a culture of economic development. The choices are stark and real and we will have to make these choices
of spending more on economic development and only supply welfare services to the needy, otherwise this will become a snowball that will be unstoppable. The example is in India. Social
welfare programmes are very limited and the growth rate is 8% because individuals take responsibility for creating wealth.


With the limited funding, this Department has achieved major successes. Trade and Tourism links have been established with Hungary. These links must be extended to all members of the
European Union. Partnerships with big business bring several advantages to empower people and create employment.


Examples are, hon Nkonyeni, honey farmers in partnership with Mondi; herb farmers in partnership with commercial farmers; outgrowers for flowers exported to Russia; and projects relating to
the open pan sugar mill; bead manufacturing with the assistance of the CSIR; development of an emporium to promote arts and cultural projects.


Mr Speaker, these initiatives culminated in the Umyezane Awards granted by the MEC on 23 November, received by big business: Afrox, Smith & Winfield, Enaleni Pharmaceuticals, Mondi,
Interface Group, and Lydia Mzoneli. Ithala is one of the crown jewels in the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism and secured a prestigious award during the term of this MEC.


Progressive company of the year award was granted by the Black Management Forum for organisation that fulfils black economic empowerment ideals.


Tourism is bringing more and more foreign currency to KwaZulu-Natal and packages for tourists are sold to Germany, Hungary, and Britain. And more than R188 million can come to KwaZulu-
Natal. The Dube TradePort and Shaka Airport is now becoming a reality. National Government must now give support for this funding and this Legislature, Mr Speaker, must also in the next
financial year, budget more for economic development. I thank you.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. The next member that will deliberate for three minutes is hon Mr B V Edwards.


MR B V EDWARDS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Today is like a rain affected cricket match with the Duckworth Lewis method where our time has been cut.


In the hon MEC's budget speech, he gave the House a report on the many initiatives instituted by the Ministry. We had some follow-up yesterday with the addition of a few new initiatives, some
of which appear to have great potential but need to be driven aggressively to allow these to succeed and be sustainable.
                                                                                                   4028




New ventures mentioned in the report create some exciting possibilities. The Trade and Tourism trip to Hungary gives hope of increased tourism from that part of Europe previously not
explored, and also possible trade investment. We await a further update of developments in the near future.


The Department's Agribusiness Directorate we are advised is in the process of business planning which will facilitate export of cut flowers, fish, vegetables and fruit from the Durban International
Airport.


Properly financed and managed, this small scale Agribusiness I believe has great potential and the hon Minister has listed some very exciting and obviously feasible ideas in utilising the natural
agricultural resources of KwaZulu-Natal.


The financing of these ventures is of course a major stumbling block and, together with adequate finance, proper management expertise is required.


Ithala Bank has played a major role in the past in providing finance to developing business, BEEs and the like in our Province, and have shown remarkable success.


However, it is disappointing, Mr Speaker, that the commercial banks show such reluctance to become involved in this type of venture. Commercial banks today seem only to back business with
gilt-edged security and are not willing to take any entrepreneurial risk. But, well done, Ithala, and shame on the ultra-conservative banking industry we see today, who are only interested in their
own bottom line.


The hon MEC in his speech cast a good deal of doubt on the future development of the Dube TradePort, which projects include the building of the King Shaka International Airport as well as the
surrounding trade zone and the Cyberport.


Three scenarios were given and it seems there is some doubt of progress in the immediate and even near future. The hon Mr Hamilton will of course not be happy. He will be crying in fact at
the continued vacillation as he wants to see his dream really come true.


What we need now is an updated and realistic feasibility study, taking all factors into account.


The reference to possible retrenchments in the clothing, textile, leather and furniture sector is disturbing news as these sectors have already been through a most difficult period, especially
during the period of tariff reform some eight years ago. It was clear that uncontrolled dumping of products from the Eastern Tiger countries brought the strong footwear and textile industry to its
knees. I trust this type of abuse is being carefully watched and controlled.


Not all news is bad. Only yesterday I was in discussion with the MD of a Hammarsdale business which has been very successful in the textile manufacturing sector. His news was good.
Production is up, employment has increased and is stable, and they are having one of their best years ever.
                                                                                               4029




I hope more good news will filter down to the Department. Perhaps they are being far too pessimistic. Thank you, Mr Speaker.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. The next member that will deliberate for three minutes is hon member Mrs Thakur-Rajbansi.


MRS S THAKUR-RAJBANSI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to thank the hon MEC for such a comprehensive report on the activities of his Department, but what I want to concentrate on
today is on BEE.


On 31 October, a workshop was held in Durban for the launching of SAWEN, which the hon Mrs Peggy Nkonyeni also attended and she addressed on behalf of this Legislature. This
organisation was launched in order to assist young women entrepreneurs. I appeal to the hon MEC from the BEE directorate of his Department to assist women entrepreneurs in terms of
making financial assistance easily available to emerging businesswomen, because a normal initiative like SAWEN, which is a national initiative, will provide membership for women and give
them branding status, but it is not going to do anything about making finance easily available to these women. I think that the BEE provincial process is the only one that can do this.


I believe that this Department can also do a lot more to launch women into business from a social point of view. I say this because social acceptance of women as business competitors,
especially in the black community, is very vital, because one of the main challenges that faces women in business is gender violence, because of our customs and our traditions.


Hon Minister, just yesterday I put a motion in this hon House requesting the hon MEC of Education to initiate a women's university solely to educate especially rural communities about various
social or customary taboos about empowering women.


If gender violence persists then our economy will always lose out because women form a very vital part in promoting the South Africa economy. I know that every single hon member here will
agree with me. If you take women out of the economy, that is women who are not allowed to go and work, then it has been researched and it has been proven that less children will go to
school. If less children go to school, that means that we are going to have less educated citizens. Therefore this economy will definitely lose out. Therefore, especially during the 16 days of
activism, this Department should do its share to empower women socially. Thank you.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE ACTING SPEAKER: The next member was supposed to be Mrs Downs who is absent. The next member was supposed to be Mr S Qoma who is permanently absent. And then the next
member that will deliberate for two minutes is hon Mr J H Slabbert.


MR J H SLABBERT: Thanks, Speaker. I am not taking up my speaking time.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: The next member that will deliberate for eight minutes is hon Mr M R Mzobe.
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MR M R MZOBE: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Let me kick off by sincerely thanking the hon Minister of Economic Development and Tourism for his dynamic and well thought out report.


It is a reality, Mr Speaker, that many researchers and economists have accused GEAR of being a stringent monetary and fiscal trick that will increase unemployment and lead to job losses.


The latter effects are obvious, Mr Speaker, not because of GEAR, but because the expected benefits of macro economic successes have not filtered into the communities. This is to be blamed
on the ANC Government with its unstable position on economic issues.


Only a few days ago, the President of the country announced on his website that the ANC is not neo-liberal, and that neo-liberalism is not the solution to South Africa's problems. Does this
mean that the President denies the neo-liberalism of GEAR, which is anathema to COSATU which is the ANC's ally? I put the question, Mr Speaker.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR M R MZOBE: No, no, GEAR is a macro economic strategy that would work but social spending on a greater scale is also needed. How can our children survive on a little more than R100
per month?


Unemployment is a structural problem, and this has been readily accepted by respected economists who are government supporters. Everybody agrees that the development of SMMEs is a
vital step forward against unemployment.


Mr Speaker, there have been a series of high powered conferences to deal with corruption in the African continent, the most recent one being in Nairobi. South Africa is the leader of the pack at
these meetings as it declares its struggle against this disease of corruption. The Kenyan Government has declared publicly that the fight against corruption is its top national priority.


Mr Speaker, the World Economic Forum Global Competitiveness report released on 30 October 2003 showed that Botswana has overtaken our country which has slipped from position 40 to
position 43. This is despite our macro-economic successes, our inflation and the strength of the rand.


An economy and a society judged by the services and delivery that are provided to its communities.


Mr Speaker, the Minister must be highly commended for a job well done. He and his Department were able to create 1 119 jobs and sustained 20 468 jobs.


Mr Speaker and hon members, it is extremely pleasing to note that the immediate implementation of the Dube TradePort including the King Shaka International Airport will deliver more than
21 000 jobs over a period of three years. One further notes with appreciation the fact that approximately 1 600 permanent jobs will be created, which is a new achievement of its kind.
                                                                                                4031


Mr Speaker, it is pleasing to note that Ithala Finance Corporation is now being used for the purpose for which it was established by its founding fathers. According to the Minister's report, it has
registered R1 billion of savings belonging to the previously disadvantaged communities. That is good news, Mr Minister. Keep it up. It is therefore no surprise that Ithala has recently won an
award. I thank you, Mr Speaker.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE ACTING SPEAKER: The next speaker will be the hon member Mr M MacKenzie for five minutes.


MR M M MACKENZIE: Baba Somlomo, hon House, I was most interested to hear the hon Minister of Economic Development and Tourism mention an array of land use activities stretching
from orchards and cut flowers and herbs, organic farming and bee keeping through to essential oils. I am not contesting this, nor am I saying it should not be done at all. I do, however, have a
few concerns which I would like to share with this House and the Minister in particular. And I re-iterate, I am not defending turf, nor am I marking trees. I would note though that you did not
mention GM foods and GM crops. Rather surprising!


Anyway, Mr Speaker, my concern is this. I sincerely hope that there is close co-ordination with the Department of Agriculture. Why I say that is for the following reason. In any land use form -
and I use the words land use rather than agriculture, because land use spreads through forestry and it even includes aquaculture incidentally - there needs to be constant extension advice from
experts in that particular field. There needs to be mentorship. There needs to be a structured ownership programme of the project. I trust, hope and pray that the Department of Economic
Development is doing this. If not, why is the Department of Agriculture not being brought in to carry it out for your Department?


I also ask the question, why is it that departments whose line function is not land use, are moving into the field of land use? I somewhat mischievously say, is there not enough to do in your own
line function that you need to come into land use areas? Again though I stress, any encouragement, any project that is designed to help the poor land user is to be applauded.


My next point here, Mr Speaker, to the Minister is this. I mentioned it to him briefly in passing that it is time that we looked as a Province at the macro co-operative system on ventures such as
Ntingwe Tea. I know that at the moment most of the financing of this is held through Ithala. However, I believe that if it can be spread into the communities and involve small outgrowers, the
true reason for the establishment of Ntingwe Tea will have been realised.


My last point, and here I ask the Minister to investigate the progress of the new Co-operative Bill which is before the National Assembly - it is a section 75 Bill - because on a cursory inspection
of this Bill I noticed that the vital clause on hypothecation or a lien on a crop had been removed, thus rendering more vulnerable your new land user. I was given to understand that this was
removed because the central banks said that they would be losing direct business. It will be found in history that the hypothecation of a crop has proved to be invaluable, especially for farmers
who need a tiding over from one season to the next. I sincerely hope the Minister will pick this one up and be able to feed back to us in the future. I thank you.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. The next speaker will be the hon MEC of Economic Development and Tourism, the hon member Mr R Burrows for 10 minutes.
                                                                                                  4032


MR R M BURROWS: (Minister of Economic Development and Tourism): Thank you, Mr Speaker. At the outset I would like to thank all members who participated in the debate and for all
those who so avidly listened to the debate. There are a number of matters that were raised by speakers that I will be responding to in the 10 minutes I have. Those that I cannot get to, I will
respond to in writing.


Let me at the outset, however, extend my thanks to the Department and to the departmental staff and the ministerial staff for the work that they have carried out during the course of this year
and without whose support I could not have carried out these activities.


I take the thanks that were given to me for certain activities to be thanks also to the officials and staff of the Department, and I will pass these on to them.


In particular the hon member Mrs Peggy Nkonyeni indicated that she was particularly pleased, as did Mrs Thakur-Rajbansi, with the SAWEN meeting. I am sorry I was not there. I was in
Hungary at the time. But I would have been at that meeting if I had been so able.


As far as empowerment of women is concerned, it is one of the key aspects of the Department and we look at the empowerment of women as one of the most vital factors in the empowerment
programmes that we have around youth, women and black empowerment specifically.


But let me also say, and I need to say this quite clearly that Mrs Thakur-Rajbansi raised the issue of the involvement of women in rural areas. She raised the issue of the women's university, as
I understood it. What is particularly interesting when you study it economically is that the recent rise in unemployment figures in this Province to some extent reflects persons losing jobs, but it
also reflects new people coming onto the employment market, indicating that they are available to work and the most significant sector that this is coming from are rural women. They are
coming onto the market and saying, "We are available for work." The problem is, there is no work to match with them. And here skills training and the kind of skills that are being talked about
are fundamentally important.


I do believe that we need to use the words that the hon Mrs Nkonyeni has used about a broad based black economic empowerment policy, because if members were simply to read the
morning's Business Report, big day for black empowerment, with four major deals taking place nationally, the problem that we have got is that all of these are at an extraordinarily high level.
That is not a problem but we need to see black empowerment and empowerment generally taking place amongst all sectors of the community, not just the wealthy, not just the company
owners.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR R M BURROWS: (Minister of Economic Development and Tourism): And it has got to be spread right down. I am not critical of these. I think it is exactly what has got to happen and,
yes, we have got to have more companies on the JSE empowered, but we have also got to get a lot more people into SMMEs, into small business and moving that way.


And she raised a whole host of queries about knocking on doors, knocking on closed doors in the facilities area, in the fleet area, ICT, maritime, trade and investment. And what is the Minister
                                                                                                  4033


doing? The Minister is doing exactly what you are saying. He is talking to the business community and saying the only avenue we can follow in this country is to empower, not empower only
politically but socially and economically.


I can give you the absolute assurance that this was the purpose of the Umyezane Awards. It was to signal that companies such as Afrox, such as Smith & Winfield, who have moved in
empowerment and moved a long road, get the congratulations of the government, whichever party it may be. We congratulate those who have taken those steps and we will be pursuing them.


The hon member Krog touched on one of the key areas that I think this House constantly has to have in mind. And it is something that I have said in other areas of this government. We are
faced with the challenge of development versus dependency: a hand up or a hand out. In terms of welfare, we have to give handouts, we have to give grants, and that is right. But unless at the
same time we are allocating sufficient funds for the hand up, to bring the communities into employment, to spread the word that in fact business and the business environment is the way that
people will thrive, we are not going to get anywhere.


I am afraid the hon member Edwards either misread my speech or deliberately misinterpreted it.


AN HON MEMBER: It is deliberate.


MR R M BURROWS: (Minister of Economic Development and Tourism): There is no doubt in my mind Dube is going ahead. What he read was that there is a necessity in the financial
scenario of planning, in the feasibility study to take account of various options. Full approach, phased approach, no approach. You have got to do it. And we came to the conclusion 10 days
ago when we received the final report, the report recommends full on approach. That has gone to the KZN Cabinet. A subcommittee of the Cabinet is being created to lead ahead with that
progress. So there is no doubt in my mind. There is an updated feasibility study. It was finished 10 days ago. It will be reported to the portfolio committee as soon as you meet, which I am told
may be some time in February. So when you next meet, I will be there with the report.


Regarding textiles, I met with the KwaZulu-Natal Textile Industry Executive 10 days ago and they expressed very, very, very severe concerns about the industry and about unemployment. They
were meeting on Monday of this week with my counterpart at national level, Minister Alec Erwin of Trade and Industries. I have not yet had the outcome of what they requested. But they were
looking at the problems of the value of the rand and they were looking at the question of tariffs and tariff barriers.


I now turn to the hon Mrs Thakur-Rajbansi and the question of women in the marketplace, absolutely essential. And I note very significantly that increasingly there are women who are heading
up companies, who are achieving directorships, who are leading with the initiative.


I said in another speech that I made outside that the Global Entrepreneurship Monitor which analyses countries' performance in terms of who is going into entrepreneurship, has said of South
Africa that percentage-wise more women are now going into entrepreneurship business than young men. We in fact have a very severe concern about young men and what is going on in their
schools. They would choose to go into politics maybe. That is not the right thing to do. You do not want young people to go into politics; it does not generate anything except hot air. Well, at
least it does here, anyway. [LAUGHTER] But you want women and men to become business orientated and accept that this is the path we have to follow.
                                                                                                 4034




As far as the hon Mzobe is concerned, I thank him for his very kind remarks. Yes, I saw this criticism of the neo-liberalism of the ANC. I was particularly amused by it. But, as I have said, I
think that the major political parties in South Africa are relatively close in economic policy, which is a very positive move. There is a safety net required, yes, there has got to be a welfare safety
net. But at the same time we have actually got to be globally competitive and we have to look at the marketplace. And so SSMEs are an absolute requirement.


If I may finally turn to the hon member Mackenzie. Thank you very much indeed for the remarks from a man who is steeped in the soil. I use that advisedly. I understand that he was not
marking trees or poles or anything else and that is not concerned, I hope, with the silo approach. It has got to be done within.


I have said previously, the relationship between the Department of Economic Development and the Department of Agriculture is one in which there is being established a mechanism whereby
the Department of Agriculture is looking at on the ground growing the land use areas, if you like - the words you were using - particularly in the major commercial and subsistence areas where
support and support mechanisms are concerned.


Economic development comes in where there is a necessity to do market research, to propagate or propose pilot schemes, to set those apart from them, and then spin them off.


What I am concerned about - and I will have to tell you at the portfolio committee. Thank you, Mr Speaker.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon MEC. Inkosi isisigcine saze saba la. [The Lord has kept us thus far]. Now I am sure we have found our footing on the order paper after chopping
and changing and all that. Now we are moving to the actual 8.4.


8.4        GENERAL DEBATE: THE KWAZULU-NATAL ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION 2003/2004 BILL.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: The speaker's list has been issued and is led by the hon Chairperson of the Finance Portfolio Committee, hon member Mr V C Xaba, who will lead us for the next 20
minutes.


MR V C XABA: It is my pleasure to read the report of the Finance Portfolio Committee on the KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation Bill, 2003/2004.


1.         INTRODUCTION


The Finance Portfolio Committee, having duly received the KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill from the Speaker in terms of Rule 181(1) of the Standing Rules of the
KwaZulu-Natal Legislature on 4 December 2003, and having formally considered it, recommended the following amendments for consideration by Provincial Treasury for both the Bill and the
                                                                                            4035


Province of KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Estimate of Revenue and Expenditure report for the financial year ending 31 March 2004 (hereafter referred to as the "Report".)


2.       VOTE 2 - PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE


The committee noted with concern the persistent underfunding of the Provincial Legislature as an institution. Furthermore, the committee noted with concern that no provision has been made in
the KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill for the security upgrade of the Provincial Legislature in Pietermaritzburg, despite the fact that Provincial Treasury received a
request from the Legislature for additional funds for this purpose for consideration for both the 2003/2004 main budget, as well as the Adjustments Appropriation. The committee agreed that
provision must be made for the security upgrade of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Legislature in the 2004/2005 budget.


3.       VOTE 3 - AGRICULTURE AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS


(1)      Regulation 21.1.1 of the National Treasury regulations stipulates that: "The accounting officer may approve gifts, donations and sponsorships of State money and other movable
         property in the interests of the State. When such cash amounts exceed R100 000 per case, the approval of the relevant Legislature must be sought by including the item separately in
         the Appropriate Bill."


Amendment to the Report: "An amount of R400 000 was rolled over to fund a donation made by the Department to the International Rangeland Congress which was held during July 2003."
In this regard, an itemised amount "Rangeland Congress" of R400 000 must be reflected separately in vote 3 of the Report.


Amendment to the Bill: An itemised payment entitled "Rangeland Congress" of R400 000 must be reflected under Programme 2 of vote 3 in the Appropriation Bill.


(2)      The committee noted the statement made by the MEC for Finance that no transfer payment to the Rangeland Congress has been made to date, hence the Legislature is not being
         requested to fund the transfer payment in the form of a donation that has already been paid, but to consider the request for this donation on its merits. The committee, having
         considered the motivation provided, agreed to the funding of this donation of R400 000 to the Rangeland Congress.


4.       VOTE 5 - EDUCATION AND CULTURE


         AMAFA AKWAZULU-NATALI:


(1)      Item 5.1 of vote 5 - Education and Culture of the Report contained a new commitment of R2,8 million to Amafa Akwazulu-Natali during 2003/2004 on the basis that: "This amount was
         announced by the Minister of Finance in the main budget speech but was not included in the budget at the time."


         During the course of its proceedings at the committee meeting of 28 November 2003, it was ascertained that this statement in the Report was factually incorrect and that no such
                                                                                                4036


            announcement was made by the MEC for Finance in the main budget speech. The MEC for Finance confirmed this error at the meeting of the committee on 2 December 2003.


    Amendment to the Report: The last sentence which reads: "This amount was announced by the Minister of Finance in the main budget speech, but was not included in the budget at the time"
    must be deleted.


    (2)     It is clear from the original wording of Item 5.1 of the Report that the R2,8 million additional commitment to Amafa in the adjustments budget was made in terms of section 31(2)(d) of
            the PMFA which states: "An adjustments budget of a province may only provide for money to be appropriated for expenditure already announced by the MEC for Finance during the
            tabling of the annual budget."


            Given the error made by Treasury, section 31(2)(d) of the PFMA could no longer be used to justify the additional budget to Amafa.


    (3)     At the committee meeting of 2 December 2003, Treasury stated that section 31(2)(b) of the PFMA would be used to justify the additional commitment to Amafa, namely: "An
            adjustments budget of a province may only provide for unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure recommended by the Provincial Executive Council of the province within a
            framework determined by the Minister."


            However, Regulation 6.6.1(a) of the Treasury Regulations clearly stipulates that: "For the purposes of an adjustments budget the following will not be considered unforeseeable and
            unavoidable expenditure: expenditure that, although known when finalising the estimates of expenditure, could not be accommodated within allocations."


In this regard, the Department of Education reported the following:


           The Department had made a request to Provincial Treasury for additional funding for Amafa for the main 2003/2004 budget;


           This request had not been accommodated within the allocation to Amafa;


           In terms of Treasury Regulation 6.6.2, the Department had not requested additional funds through the adjustments budget.


Thus, section 31(2)(b) of the PFMA could not be used to justify the additional commitment of R2,8 million to Amafa, as the need for this additional allocation was already foreseen by Provincial
Treasury during the consideration of the main 2003/2004 budget in April/May 2003, and had not been accommodated within the allocation to Amafa. A letter dated 2 April 2003, provided by the
Department to the committee, signed by the Head of Treasury, approving the additional funding of R2,8 million in the 2003/2004 financial year to Amafa bore testimony to this.


(4)         After exhausting the possibility of utilising sections 31(2)(d) and (b) of the PFMA to justify the additional commitment to Amafa, the MEC for Finance stated the Provincial Treasury
            would rely on section 31(2)(a)) of the PFMA which states: "An adjustments budget of a province may only provide for the appropriation of funds that have become available to the
                                                                                                4037


          province."


          In terms of section 31(2)(a), a new allocation of funds by way of an additional appropriation to a vote is envisaged, thus, the letter dated 2 April 2003 provided by the Department to the
          committee, signed by the Head of Treasury, approving the additional funding of R2,8 million in the 2003/2004 financial year to Amafa, has no legal basis whatsoever for the following
          reasons:


         At the time of drafting this letter, the 2003/2004 budget had not been passed by the Legislature;


         In terms of section 226(2)(a) of the Constitution, as well as section 21(1)(b) and 24(1)(a) of the PFMA, no money may be withdrawn from the Provincial Revenue Fund except in terms
          of an appropriation by a Provincial Act;


         At no time during the budget hearings or budget debates held by the Legislature to consider the 2003/2004 budget was the matter of additional funds for Amafa raised with the Finance
          Portfolio Committee, not by Amafa, nor the Department of Education, nor Provincial Treasury, despite the fact that they had adequate opportunity to do so.


          On the contrary, judging from the verbal report given by the MEC for Finance on 28 November 2003, confirmed by correspondence provided to the committee by the Department of
          Education and Culture on 2 December 2003, the Department opposed the application for additional funding for Amafa. In a letter from the Finance Administration Directorate to the
          Acting Chief Financial Officer of the Department of Education and Culture dated as early as 9 October 2002, it is pointed out that:


          The fact that Amafa is spending in excess of 80% of its budget on staff expenses is an issue that they should deal with internally ... the Department is heading for a significant
          overspend at the end of the current financial year and any increase to Amafa will only further exacerbate the problem.


    (5)   Whilst noting the non-compliance of the PFMA, the committee needed to consider whether section 31(2)(a) of the PFMA could be utilised to allocate new funds to Amafa, if it believed
          the request for R2,8 million to Amafa was reasonable and justifiable.


    (6)   The evidence presented to the committee on 2 December 2003 revealed the following:


         Amafa required a new allocation of R722 895 to cover personnel salary increases;


         Amafa was not in a position to justify the need for new funding of R2,8 million in a standardised, itemised request, as is the case with all other departments and public entities. On the
          contrary, it was exposed that Amafa was operating on a budget of R10 million on the assumption that its budget would be automatically increased from R7,2 million to R10 million with
          Provincial Treasury's assurance, despite the fact that only R7,2 million was appropriated by the Legislature for Amafa for the 2003/2004 financial year;
                                                                                                        4038


                A new allocation of R2,8 million represents a 39% increase in Amafa's budget. The committee had not been provided with any substantial justification for this massive increase of
                 budget to a public entity, given the dire financial crisis of the Province and the severe financial pressures on service delivery departments such as the Department of Education and
                 Culture.


Amendment to Report: Item 5.1 of the Report to be deleted and item 5.2 of the Report be amended as follows (with the consequential change in numbering from 5.2 to 5.1 and 5.3 to 5.2),
        and the following paragraph to be added:


                To provide a new allocation of R2,8 million to Programme 8: Auxiliary and Associated Services to increase the transfer payment to the public entity of Amafa aKwaZulu-Natali to meet
                 their anticipated over-expenditure of R2,8 million in the 2003/2004 financial year.


It must be noted that the committee, in agreeing with the request for a new allocation to Amafa, is condoning the technical non-compliance with the PFMA.


    OTHER ADJUSTMENTS - PROGRAMME: PUBLIC ORDINARY SCHOOL EDUCATION


    (1)          The Provincial Treasury conceded that the movement of R454 million within Programme 2: Public Ordinary School Education of vote 5 - Education and Culture, from capital to current
                 expenditure was not a virement but a reclassification.


        Amendment to Report: The word "virement" to be deleted from the last sentence of the second bullet point under Programme 2: Public Ordinary School Education to read: "This was
        undertaken in order to correct the classification of textbook and library material."


        5.       VOTE 10 - ROYAL HOUSEHOLD


        (1)      The committee noted that the Department's request dated 29 April 2003 to Treasury as per Treasury Regulation 6.6.2 for a rollover of R1,715 million from 2002/2003, being funds that
                 were unspent in 2002/2003 due to delays in finalising capital projects in respect of two royal palaces, was for the completion of major extensions at KwaKhethomthandayo Royal
                 Palace and the completion of a curtaining project at KwaKhangelamankengane Royal Palace.


        6.       VOTE 11 - TRADITIONAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS


        (1)      In a letter to the committee dated 1 December 2003, the Department of Traditional and Local Government Affairs stated that of the R14,683 million requested rollover to 2003/04
                 relating to Programme 2: Traditional Institutional Management of vote 11 - Traditional and Local Government Affairs, R13,03 million related to the provincial infrastructure grant,
                 R1,38 million for the research project on traditional leadership, and R273 000 for furniture that was ordered but not delivered before the end of the financial year.
                                                                                                4039


         During the midterm review interview with the Department, it was revealed that the Department had already spent R2 280 729 on the Briefing Document Process, which included the
         research project on traditional leadership. In terms of Table 14.1 of the Department's 2002/2003 annual report, this amount represented an over expenditure of approximately
         R1 308 615 of its originally budgeted for an amount of R972 114,22. A breakdown of this expenditure, provided to the committee by the Department, revealed certain serious
         irregularities, including:


        There appears to be a splitting of orders;


        in the appointment of BE@UP, section 5(1)(a)(i) of KwaZulu-Natal Procurement Act 3 of 2001, was violated by the Department. This section specifies that where the value of the
         contract is above the delegated limit, it must be referred to the Central Procurement Committee for tender. Regulation 11 of the Regulations in terms of the KwaZulu-Natal
         Procurement Act, sets the maximum value of the delegated limit for purposes of the Act at R1 million.


On receiving this information, the committee passed a Resolution regarding this irregular and unlawful expenditure, which is to be considered by the House on 5 December 2003.


It is clear that this over expenditure of R1,3 million correlated with the request for rollover of R1,38 million for the research project on traditional leadership. In addition, at the midterm review
interview the Department indicated that it would be seeking additional funds for their over expenditure on the briefing documents from the Adjustments Appropriation.


Given that the rollover of R1,38 million was spent by the Department in an alleged irregular and unlawful manner, the committee could not approve this request.


Amendment to Report: Under Programme 2: Traditional Institutional Management of Item 5.1 of vote 11 of the Report, the amount of R14,683 million rollover be reduced by an amount of
R1,38 million to R13,303 million, and the phrase referring to "the research project on traditional leadership" deleted. So too must any tables in this Report relating to this expenditure be
amended accordingly. This amount of R1,38 million must revert back to vote 6 - Provincial Treasury.


Amendment to Bill: Programme 2 of vote 11 of the Bill be amended to reflect a decrease in the amount of R14,683 million to R13,303 million, and Programme 3 of vote 6 be amended to
reflect an increase of R1,38 million.


7.       WITHDRAWAL OF THE KWAZULU-NATAL ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATE 2003/2004 BILL BY THE MEC FOR FINANCE ON 5 DECEMBER 2003, AND RE-INTRODUCTION
         OF A NEW BILL


All the concerns of the Finance Portfolio Committee were taken into account by the MEC for Finance, and accommodated in the newly introduced Adjustments Appropriation Bill tabled in the
Legislature on 5 December 2003, as well as the revised Province of KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Estimate of Revenue and Expenditure report for the financial year ending 31 March 2004.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: That indicates that your time has expired.
                                                                                                    4040




MR V C XABA: Thank you.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: I would allow you to proceed and finish that last paragraph, but on the mercy time, not your time.


MR V C XABA: Thank you for your intervention.


The committee at its meeting of 5 December 2003 unanimously supported the Bill and the revised report. I therefore move the KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill for
adoption by the House. Thank you very much.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE ACTING SPEAKER: I allowed you to proceed because that is the most important paragraph that was going to determine the debate in the House. Without it, it would be a waste of time,
energy and words to debate something that was not tabled.


Then the debate will proceed. Now we will have the hon Mrs C M Cronje deliberating for the next 14 minutes.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Thank you, Mr Speaker. The purpose of this General Budget Debate is twofold, namely to debate the following:


                The report of the Finance Portfolio Committee on the 2003 Midyear Expenditure Review, because that report was tabled last week. It has not been formally debated and adopted yet.


                Secondly, the purpose of this debate is to debate the Adjustments Appropriation Bill, and the Report of the Finance Portfolio Committee on the Bill, the one that has just been tabled
                 and presented to the House.


    Midyear Expenditure Review


    It is an unfortunate fact that this Province is heading for a projected over expenditure of the 2003/2004 budget to the tune of some R2 billion, somewhat over R2 billion.


    In its report to the portfolio committee on the expenditure and revenue per department for the period 1 April to 30 September 2003, Treasury indicated that the following Departments project a
        significant over expenditure.

         Education                R280 082 million over expenditure
                                                                                                   4041


 Health                      R490 190 million over expenditure

 Royal Household             R 2,497 million over expenditure:
                             which is, relatively speaking, a large amount
                             because it has a relatively small budget

 Welfare                     R 1, 310 billion estimated over expenditure.

 TOTAL                       R 2,082 billion


This brings the total to R2,082 billion and the remaining departments are collectively, this is according to Treasury, projecting to remain within budget. Some are recording minor savings and
there is a projected combined net over expenditure of R14 million amongst the other departments, which is not significant in the greater scheme of things.


Of course we are dealing with projected figures and I think at this point we must appeal to all departments please to try and reduce these projections.


That then in summary is the situation that we are facing as we are going into the second half of the financial year.


In its Summary Report on Expenditure and Revenue, Treasury therefore states that the projected over expenditure "demonstrates unequivocally that the Province is facing a financial crisis of
even worse dimensions than that of 1997/1998". This is a direct quote out of their report given to the portfolio committee.


During our midterm hearings, when we were discussing where we could have possible savings and what the underlying causes of the over expenditure were, the portfolio committee pointed out
to the MEC for Finance and to Treasury that whilst the Constitution does contain in section 27 a right to "health care, food, water and social security", it also clearly states in section 27(2) that
"The State must take reasonable Legislative and other measures within its available resources, to achieve the progressive realisation of each of these rights." It is not a once-off realisation. It is
a progressive realisation.


In addition to this, it is common cause that no right is absolute and all rights can be limited in terms of the Limitations Clause.


I am therefore very pleased that the MEC has taken this up in his address to the House when he introduced the Adjustments Estimates Bill and I think his exposition of the Constitution in this
regard as well as the provision of the PFMA and how departments cannot spend with impunity is 100% correct, fully supported by the portfolio committee.


Now I want to look at Welfare. As far as the over expenditure on Welfare is concerned, we are totally sympathetic, and I want to emphasise this, we are totally sympathetic to the plight of the
aged. I think we are not talking enough about the aged, and if I see how people are having to arrive at four o'clock in the morning at the Burger Street pension pay out point, and it happened in
this week, and you see the suffering of people there, then I do think we are not talking enough about the plight of the aged. So we are fully sympathetic to that.
                                                                                                  4042




We are fully sympathetic to the plight of the young children who may have to go hungry to bed. We are sympathetic to the plight of the poor and the disabled. This needs to be clearly
understood. Nobody is coming into this debate from a position of not caring. The MEC also pointed that out very clearly in his speech and in his discussions with our committee.


At the same time we also have a duty as the Legislature, and we would be failing in our duty if we did not express concern about the unprecedented and abnormally high increase particularly in
disability grants, because we are given to understand that the major cause for the huge over expenditure in Welfare is this unprecedented and abnormally high uptake of disability grants.


We are also gravely concerned about the composition of the assessment panels and the abnormally high success rate on appeal. We have been told by the Department - these are not figures
that we are thumbsucking - that the success rate on appeal for disability grants is in the region of 97% according to one document, and 96% according to a later figure - essentially the same
figure.


The MEC for Welfare presides over these appeals and we really would appreciate a clear explanation from him as to why the success rate is so unusually high. You would of course expect
some success rate on appeal but not what virtually becomes 100% success rate. And we, as the Legislature, really do need an explanation.


Resolutions 19 and 20 of the portfolio committee deal with these issues extensively and we are looking forward to the Department's responses in this regard. We simply do not have time to go
into the detail, but those two Resolutions in our report are very important.


As far as Health is concerned, the committee did not find it necessary to pass a specific Resolution and we did have quite lengthy discussions on this matter. Initially we did have a paragraph
which was eventually taken out by agreement. The Department made out a convincing case and demonstrated that it is being substantially underfunded.


I have a report here from the Department where they actually set out the policies that they are following. AIDS has a major impact on their budget; the extension of health services to rural
areas; equity in the distribution of health services; making available health services to old people, to children, pregnant mothers and the like. It has a major impact on the Department's budget.


We are not saying that they must not save where possible. Of course they must save where possible, and they must actually be very prudent in their spending, but at the same time there are
serious demands on their budget and we are of the opinion that they are in fact substantially underfunded.


The Royal Household. The over expenditure here was for items not budgeted for and it was reported to the portfolio committee that this was as a result of a Cabinet Resolution. If this was
indeed so, and I wish I had time to go into all the details of the provisions of the PFMA here but I simply do not, then it is a very serious matter.


I am really going to appeal, Mr Speaker, to Cabinet, and I think I must make that appeal through our MEC for Finance because he is the custodian of our provincial finances, that Cabinet should
really be apprised of all the provisions of the PFMA. Cabinet cannot appropriate money that the Legislature has not voted for. If it is true that Cabinet said to the DDG of the Royal Household,
the Head of Department there, "Go and spend money on the celebrations around the Ondini Palace to the tune of almost R1 million," then Cabinet was wrong. But at the same time that
                                                                                                 4043


accounting officer should have said, "In terms of section 64 I cannot do that." And if he was forced to do it, he would have had to follow the provisions set out clearly in section 64 and say,
"Look, this is unbudgeted for."


This unbudgeted expense has actually put this accounting officer in a very serious situation, a very, very serious situation, because he then did not follow the provisions, by his own admission,
of the PFMA and I think this should be a warning to all accounting officers but also to the Executive.


Can I then turn in my last few minutes to the Adjustments Appropriation Bill and the Committee Report thereon. I want to just very briefly talk about the Provincial Legislature. Here one really
feels like a stuck record. In the greater scheme of things our budget is minute. It really is minute. It is the highest institution in the Province. This is where we make laws and this is where we
appropriate money, and yet we are substantially underfunded.


We have security requirements here. We do not need to talk about this. We all know our problems around security which is non-existent. And yet again there is no money in the budget for our
security requirements. We really have to start taking this institution seriously, because I am unfortunately gaining the distinct impression that the Executive is not taking this institution seriously.
I could elaborate. I could give you millions of examples.


But I think this is something that the Executive must look at and say, "Are we respecting the institution that actually votes the money that we spend?"


AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): "Are we respecting the institution that makes the laws that we implement?" It is not a competition. The Executive has a clear role. The Legislature has a
clear role. Let us respect each other and the work that we have to do respectively.


Lastly I want to turn to Amafa. It is extremely important, and I am a person who values culture tremendously. In fact, if I am not here making politics I would probably spend my entire life in
cultural pursuits, because that is what really interests me, that is what really turns me on. [LAUGHTER]


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Order! Order!


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): So Amafa as a concept to look after the cultural heritage of a province is 100% correct. Amafa re-interpreted through IFP eyes is not acceptable. It is not
IFP culture, it is the culture of the people of the Province.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): And as long as Amafa thinks that they must give the culture of this Province an IFP flavour, they will actually alienate themselves from the rest of the people.
                                                                                                 4044


It is not a little possession for a few people to go and view wonderful archaeological sites when they want to do so, to go and visit those wonderful archaeological sites where the Zulu kings
lived and reigned. They must actually make it accessible to all the people in this Province. We should all feel part of it.


We should all own Border Cave. How many of you have been to Border Cave, the origin of man? How many of you have been there? How many of you know about it? Why? Not because
there is something wrong with you but because Amafa is keeping it as their private fiefdom. That must come to an end.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: The next member to deliberate is hon member Mr Aulsebrook. You have 12 minutes.


MR J F AULSEBROOK: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I must certainly compliment the last speaker on bringing sobriety to the debate on the report of the Finance Committee. I sincerely hope I am
not going to disrupt that pattern.


Last Wednesday, while speaking during the debate on the Premier's report, I was interrupted continuously by members of this House. Therefore today I would like to begin by recapping to allow
those who appeared not to understand me previously, to comprehend what was being said.


With particular reference to the Finance Committee Report, I drew the House's attention to the effect our actions as members have on those employed in the Provincial Public Administration,
and for that matter the public as a whole. As politicians and members of this House we are used to sectarianism as a normal part of our daily lives. But when our actions impact on and divide
out departments and the officials along political lines, the end result is totally counter-productive. I trust that the member on the other side is listening to what I am saying. To illustrate the
dangerous consequence of this, I gave examples from the Finance Committee's report where this practice was clearly evident.


Allow me to elaborate further on this aspect before I turn to complete my earlier speech. I am sure the members of this House will agree that our Public Administration has improved beyond all
recognition since 1994. Obviously this is not to say that it is perfect. Of course there will always be room for improvement, and room there is. But the fact remains that we have many capable
people in senior positions in this Province. The Premier's Department is one such office whose level of service excellence was recognised by an award from the South African Institute of
Government Auditors.


Yesterday the same Department was attacked, attacked with half truths.


AN HON MEMBER: INTERJECTION.


MR J F AULSEBROOK: You know who spoke yesterday and you will have heard it. Those half truths become very misleading to this House.
                                                                                                   4045


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR J F AULSEBROOK: And specifically to the reference to R4,5 million of an invoice, and going on like that. Well, quite honestly the half truth comes in that, yes, the Department did discover
a R4,5 million that had not been paid. They would normally have taken disciplinary action against the individual, but we heard yesterday that he has now left the Department and no follow-up
action can be taken.


But what also was not said was that the Department had a surplus of R19 million, from which that R4,5 million should have been paid. They in fact returned R19 million to Treasury. Instead
they could easily have, and should have, because it was within the budget, merely to have returned R14,5 million and paid the R4,5 million. The raving and rantings around R4,5 million were
totally unnecessary since the committee had the explanation and we should have in fact dealt with it in an appropriate manner.


The committees of this House perform a very necessary oversight function, whereby members must identify weaknesses, shortcomings and failures in departments, and then in a constructive
manner instruct, by Resolution of the House, the politically responsible persons to effect the required remedial action. Unfortunately, where I believe we are failing is when members launch
vicious attacks on departmental officials in prosecutorial type questioning, as though they were in a criminal court.


We must remember that these public servants are in no position to defend themselves, yet we expect them in return to show us respect as members of this Provincial Parliament.


I am glad that yesterday the hon Minister of Transport recognised that and mentioned it. But consequently he should also have, taking that allegation, informed this House whether there had
been such a transgression or not and, if there had, what remedial action he had taken to deal with it. Maybe it is still coming to this House. Maybe Mrs Scott will follow that one up for us.
[LAUGHTER]


We also in this House expect our civil servants to rise above party politics. But it is often us that drag them down into the political arena. I implore members of this House, please, let us try and
avoid that scenario.


Public servants who appear before committees of this House must, on request, provide information that is relevant to their status and role in the Department. Once the committee is armed with
this information and the problems identified, it should revert to the relevant Minister for investigation and rectification. The relevant Ministers are politically responsible to this House and it is they
that we should be approaching to deal with these issues.


To this effect the PFMA Chapter 10, clause 85 is clear on the correct procedure to be followed. The committee is responsible for reporting matters of this nature to Treasury who will take the
necessary action. Even in extreme cases of financial mismanagement, it is not for members to pronounce judgment on public servants. In fact I become embarrassed when certain members
take satisfaction in humiliating departmental officials when they appear before our committees. Where does the problem arise in the Finance Committee?


There are individuals who tend to see things either as being perfect or drastically wrong. They either adore people or absolutely detest people. They see everything in black and white, with no
                                                                                                 4046


middle ground. This becomes very problematic and tends to give rise to what is perceived as bias in a committee. I know of other people that suffer similar situations and they spend some time
with their psychologists trying to resolve those issues.


If one wants to go on to Amafa, maybe we need to look at an underlying cause of some of the issues there. I do not disagree necessarily with everything that Mrs Cronje said, but there are
other personality clashes also. Maybe we should look into what the underlying causes of the animosities in those personality clashes are. That could maybe lead to a debate in this House
where we will get a far better understanding of some of those situations. But for today we will let that one rest.


Instead of indulging in negative abuses of power and responsibilities, let us instead be part of building and maintaining an effective and efficient Provincial Administration that delivers and serves
the public well. Then perhaps we can proudly turn to our electorate and hopefully take some credit.


Mr Speaker, I turn now to where I left off last Wednesday in my debate regarding the Department of the Royal Household. As far as the Royal Household is concerned, Mr Speaker, Resolution
14 of the Report notes that the potential over expenditure of R2 497 000 is made up of R856 735 for the handover of the Ondini Palace. It then goes on to give detailed exposure of the financial
procedures contained in the PFMA and Treasury regulations. However, this is incorrect.


First of all, by adding R856 735 to R641 000, one only gets R1 497 735. Where is the other R1 million to make up the potential deficit? Secondly, the amount spent by the Department for the
maintenance of Ondini Palace only amounts to R210 000 and not the R641 000 as stated in the report.


Mr Speaker, allow me to bring some clarity to this murky state of affairs. The projected deficit of the Department will only materialise if it pays out retrenchment packages in 2004.


THE SPEAKER: A minute left.


MR J F AULSEBROOK: The administration standard item in the budget carries the costs relating to the Ondini Palace, whilst the personnel expenditure standard item, carries the retrenchment
packages.


With regard to Resolution 15, once more it becomes clear that there is not an understanding of the current situation. Again this matter can be handled more expeditiously on the administrative
level and that is where it should be referred. We do not need an audit report. All we need is to ask the Legislature and Persal to provide us with the required information regarding the
remuneration of a particular member.


I now turn to the handing over of Ondini Palace where we must be honest with ourselves and acknowledge the fact that for 10 years this House has pressurised the Works Department and the
Executive to hand over this palace. The Executive subsequently has done so. Thank you, Mr Speaker.


THE SPEAKER: The next member to deliberate is hon member Mr Krog for seven minutes.
                                                                                                4047




MR J KROG: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The hon Cronje and Aulsebrook have thoroughly debated the over expenditure in this midyear review and the political nuances that have taken place
over the last two weeks. I want to consider something totally different and I think a midyear review is also to consider how money is spent, not only how to cope with over expenditure.


The vision of the Provincial Treasury becomes relevant in judging midyear performance and adjustments estimates. Namely, we will help support and ensure that your rand goes the extra mile,
or, as the MEC frequently puts it, we need to ensure that we get value for the rands spent. It is no use getting 50 cents value for spending R1.


We also need to get back to the basics. What priorities has the Executive and this Legislature set for itself to achieve after the first six months? And as in the Blue Book it is said that these six
priorities set is ongoing. We know where we want to go. Year after year it changes only in minor details.


We need to state these priorities for ourselves again over and over, namely:


1.       Reducing poverty and inequality - I add myself, by being the catalyst for employment opportunities.


2.       Reducing the impact of HIV/AIDS - I add by supplying retroviral drugs to HIV positive citizens, as we have now belatedly started to rollout.


3.       Re-engineering service delivery in government - I add by not employing more personnel but being more effective and productive.


4.       Investing infrastructure - I add through effective, affirmative private sector programmes.


5.       Strengthening governance - I add by working together in Provincial Government and not working against each other to achieve political advantage.


6.       Human capacity development - I add through sharing knowledge and mentorship.


Mr Speaker, we have got to evaluate what the Finance Committee has done in terms of these priorities and evaluating departments. I am of the opinion that it was the duty of the Finance
Committee to invite all departments to present their midyear expenditure reports to be evaluated against these priority and performance targets set for the first six months, and ended on 30
September 2003.


MRS B SCOTT: Why did you not ask?


MR J KROG: It is not an excuse. I asked over and over. You keep your ears closed, hon Belinda Scott. You just hear what you want to hear.
                                                                                                  4048


Mr Speaker, may I continue? It is not an excuse to say that it could not be done because of time constraints. It was done during the previous midyear review. The Finance Committee only
started the reviews on 11 November. It was not necessary for the Finance Committee to wait for Treasury briefing before these meetings could start. In fact departments probably briefed
Treasury long before 10 November. Last year all departments were heard and their performance evaluated and Resolutions taken.


The MEC also suggested in the hearing that portfolio committees should also interrogate their departments in terms of achieving their performance targets, visions, strategic plans, and in terms
of the priorities set by the Executive. This will surely influence departments to present the budget for the next year in the budget cycle into which we are now going. At this moment we are
talking on the review of last year's budget. The cycle in the budget procedure is that new budgets for next year are established at this moment. This has also been addressed and discussed at
SCOPA meetings nationally.


We need to have some sort of performance audit of how we meet our targets. The House needs to know whether it gets value for money spent. The MEC for Finance has indicated that a
performance audit section needs to be part of Public Accounts and that the Auditor-General's Department needs to formulate a report on the performance audit annually of each Department. I
fully concur. But someone must take the decision and supply budget for performance audit. Someone must take the responsibility to instruct the Auditor-General to do these performance
audits.


Performance audit is a specialised auditing function and there are not many qualified accountants to lead such a process. In my address later I will highlight where I consider we are not getting
value for money. I will name these projects, Mr Speaker.


At the end of a five-year parliamentary term it might not be the right time but after the new Legislature is elected, it is surely the right time to start a performance audit on our achievements.


The Director General of Finance in his opening statement when addressing the Finance Portfolio Committee on the expenditure pressures that we are moving into, said the following:


          More and more people depend on government for their livelihood.


I am sure he questioned whether this was the right approach.


The MEC expressed the same sentiments:


          I have a profound sense of déja vu that a disproportionate amount of funding is directed to Social Welfare Departments. This problem has grown more serious in the adjustment
          estimates.


These remarks by the MEC and Director General need to be taken seriously and something done about it as we are already spending 85% of our budget on social services. I do not say we do
not need to pay social grants, but the balance between social grants and development needs to be more on a balanced basis.
                                                                                                 4049




I say that because transformation and development can only happen in South Africa if we take our responsibilities seriously and encourage people to depend largely on themselves to achieve
excellence. That is the catalyst government must strive for. I thank you.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: The next member to deliberate is hon member Mr Volker. You have eight minutes to do so.


MR V A VOLKER: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Before dealing with the topic under discussion, I just want to respond to one statement that the hon Mr Krog made. He said, as I heard him, that
we should instruct the Auditor-General. The Auditor-General acts in terms of the Auditor-General's Act, and in terms of that Act he is totally independent of any instructions from the Legislature
or the Executive or individual members.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MR V A VOLKER: And there is no instruction of the Auditor-General.


It has happened that members draw to the attention of the Auditor-General that there are certain irregularities and suggest that he looks into them. But what he does is entirely in terms of the
Act and it is in terms of the total Legislative Constitutional Independence of the Auditor-General.


AN HON MEMBER: He is new.


MR V A VOLKER: I am reminded that the hon Mr Krog is new here, but let me not comment on that. [LAUGHTER]


AN HON MEMBER: And confused.


MR V A VOLKER: Mr Speaker, in this adjustment budget provision has been made for some almost R1 billion in rounded figures. To a certain degree it has come to the assistance of various
departments that have quite a considerable over expenditure in terms of the original budget.


I accept that one can never keep exactly to the actual budget that is introduced in the main budget. But I would like to draw attention to the fact that an individual is legally entitled to do anything
that is not prohibited by law. But the government departments, State departments, provincial departments, local government departments, are only entitled to spend money that is provided for
in legislation. That is part of the principle of financial discipline.
                                                                                                    4050


We have various departments being projected to incur extensive over expenditure. There are departments that say in terms of the Constitution people have a right to certain issues. They are
quite correct. Clause 27 of the Constitution says everyone has the right to have access to health care services, sufficient food and water, social security. But 27(2) says:


         The State must take reasonable Legislative and other measures, within its available resources, to achieve the progressive realisation of each of these rights.


It does not say that the State must take excessive steps beyond its resources.


But then we have the Public Finance Management Act which, in terms of this Act, supersedes any other Legislation. I am not certain to what extent it supersedes the Constitution but section
63(1)(a) of the PFMA says:


         Executive authorities of departments must perform their statutory functions within the limits of funds authorised by the relevant vote.


I accept that there are hard case circumstances. We have a tremendous amount of poverty in this Province and we have appreciation for the needs of the poor. But the Province, the
Legislature, the Executive, the departments, must act in terms of the law. They cannot exceed their expenditure with impunity and expect to come at the end of the year and say, "You must
provide this in the adjustment budget."


The Minister of Finance is also subject to the discipline of the Legislation, of the Constitution and of the PFMA. If one can express sympathy and understanding for the excess expenditure by
the Department of Welfare, in general terms for the welfare services, I think one has a justified question mark over excesses of expenditure that are not welfare related.


If, for example, senior officials, or for that matter the Minister, spends excessive periods in luxury hotels. The question is, is that justified?


AN HON MEMBER: No.


MR V A VOLKER: In terms of this Act? Or is that irresponsible expenditure. I want to draw that to the attention of the Executive members and also of senior officials of departments, and not
only a specific department, but of a variety of departments. I believe that this is an aspect where in terms of financial discipline far more pro-active financial discipline should be encouraged and
should be enforced.


I would also like to point out that the situation at present is that numerous departments carry an inordinate number of supernumery staff and have been doing so for years and have been
bringing excuses that they have not been able to address this issue because of things that have not been addressed at national level. There has been no pro-active exercise to try and address
this issue. Millions are wasted in terms of lack of discipline being exercised by the various departments. I want to draw this to the attention of the Minister of Finance and all Executive
members. I thank you, Mr Speaker.
                                                                                                   4051


AN HON MEMBER: Well done!


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: The next member to deliberate is hon member Mr Mthimkhulu. You have got minutes.


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: Hon Speaker and members, this is a debate which is a precursor to a Christmas break and exciting season of the year. We are looking at how far we have gone with
our Provincial Budget as we reach its midyear term.


Having sat in the Finance Portfolio Committee listening to some reports from various departments, one is worried because clouds are gathering for a deficit in our provincial purse. Let me not
elaborate on that but I would like to point out that our Provincial Government needs to tighten some loose ends when it comes to prioritisation.


It has been disturbing to hear that the Department of Education is aiming at spending thousands, if not millions, of rands building new administration offices in some areas such as Vulindlela just
outside Pietermaritzburg and Kokstad.


Taking the case of Vulindlela as a classical example, in the Pietermaritzburg city centre there are thousands of square metres of floor space already available which can be utilised. This space
includes existing State buildings which can be utilised for this purpose. I therefore, hon Speaker, have sound reasons to argue about the wisdom of going to build new administrative offices
when there are plenty available.


We on this side of the House, Mr Speaker, totally oppose this proposed move. We say let that money be used for building more classrooms and schools. This Province has a backlog of more
than 14 000 classrooms as we speak right now. Secondly, we feel perturbed, Mr Speaker, when we hear that there is an intention to milk taxpayers of about R80 million for a proposed
Debating Chamber for the House of Traditional Leaders at Ulundi. My goodness, Lord, where is logic in building another Chamber at Ulundi while there is one lying empty? What is the
rationale behind this bizarre proposed move? Can these millions not be used for various other priorities such as in our fight against the HIV/AIDS scourge.


We, as the ANC, want to make it very clear to the people of this Province that we will never support this unnecessary extravagance. We cannot condone the abuse of people's money just for
narrow political agendas.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: The Province of KwaZulu-Natal is in dire need of development and effective programmes to alleviate poverty. The recent vicious attack on President Mbeki last month
in the NCOP in Cape Town by the Premier of this Province was spurious and far off the mark. The backlog in development in this Province has nothing to do with the President or the ANC-led
National Government, but we are facing this situation because the IFP is failing to set its priorities correctly.
                                                                                               4052




HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: Up to this day, Mr Speaker, two National Ministers, hon Thoko Didiza and hon Ben Ngubane, who were tasked by the President to come and assist the Provincial
Cabinet on the implementation of development programmes in the presidential nodal points. These Ministers were barred by the Premier because at the time the Premier said they will not be
welcome until the issues of the powers of traditional leaders is resolved. The question is what do these so-called powers of traditional leaders have to do with the development of our
communities?


As ANC we are very passionate about seeing people who were deprived of quality life by the erstwhile apartheid regime and its structures now having access to a better life. We are not just
talking about this vision, but we are literally doing all that we can to achieve this quest.


Our ANC-run departments in this Province are a clear testimony to this. Even a 10-year-old child will tell you about what has been done by the Department of Transport, the Department of
Health and even the two departments we took charge of as recently as early this year, namely the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Works, which are already exerting positive
impact on the lives of ordinary women and men in various areas.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: Yes, I may sound as if I am blowing our trumpet, but if we do not say these things, Mr Speaker, no one else will say them on our behalf. We are definitely making a
positive mark on the lives of our people in this Province.


AN HON MEMBER: Propaganda!


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: Others can come with all sorts of anti-ANC coalitions aiming at so-called capping the dominance of the ANC in this country but ultimately they will be proved wrong.


THE SPEAKER: Order hon Mr Cele.


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: Those coalitions do not have anything to offer to the people of this country, hence their main objective is to reduce the power of the ANC. People of this Province and
people of this country in general know that they were liberated by the ANC from the chains of apartheid.


In conclusion, Mr Speaker, one must remind this House that South Africa has two leaders with unique characteristics, namely, one on the right side is a well-trained soldier of the apartheid era
and received specialised training in propaganda; and the other one on the left-hand side is also a well-trained soldier of the liberation movement and also received specialised training in
communications and publicity skills.
                                                                                            4053




AN HON MEMBER: And propaganda!


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: One is uniting all forces to oppose transformation, and the other is uniting all other forces that want to build a united non-racial, non-sexist, democratic and prosperous
South Africa. These unique figures in our country are none other than Mr Tony Leon of the DA and the President of the ANC, hon President Thabo Mbeki.


AN HON MEMBER: INTERJECTION.


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: It is up to you to choose who you want to follow between the two leaders. ANC lives and ANC leads. I thank you, Mr Speaker.


AN HON MEMBER: You believe your own propaganda.


THE SPEAKER: Ilungu elizolandela, ilungu elihloniphekile uMnumzane uGwala ono-13 minutes. [The next member is the hon member Mr Gwala, who has 13 minutes].


MR M B GWALA: Mhlonishwa Somlomo neNdlu yakho. Ngisukuma ukuphawula ngengxoxo emayelana nokuhlelwa kweSabelo sezimali kanye noMbiko owethulwe kuleNdlu yakho yikomiti
leziMali. Ngifisa nje ukuncoma Ungqongqoshe weZimali kanye noMnyango wakhe ngobuchwepheshe abanabo ekuhlelweni kwezinkece.


Okwesibili, zisuka nje amadaka ngifisa ukuphawula mayelana nenkulumo esithathwe ngamaphephandaba ethinta mina ngqo kuleNdlu. Ilungu liyihoxisile kodwa ngoba kuqoshiwe okushiwo
ngami kumele ilaka lami lizwakale ngaphambi kokuba ngikwemukela ukuxolisa.


Ngiqale ukuhlala Ondini ngo-1979 ngihlala noBaba ongizalayo oze wahamba emhlabeni ehlala Ondini kwa-A Section enombolo 120. Kuthe ngo-1989 ngahlala enombolo 30 Inkosi E.T. Xolo
okulifulethi engihlala kulo yonke leminyaka. Ngihlala nezingane zami oNjobenhle oneminyaka engu-18, kanye noTshitshi oneminyaka engu-15 namanje bafunda behlezi nami kanye noMkami
uThembelihle Patience ukaDludla esashada emini kabha sahlanganiswa uMfundisi D.N. Nyandeni.


Namanje ukaDludla usefulethini nengane encane eneminyaka emibili uSibusisiwe. Ngihlala kulelifulethi ngiyalikhokhela hhayi ukuze ngikipite kulo noMkami. Mina ngiganwe okaDludla nje vo,
anginaso isithembu sabafazi ababili neshende. "Phansi ngamashende Phansi"! [UHLEKO] Akaze mina ngiqonywe abafazi babantu.


Akaze mina ngiphuce uMnumzane Thabethe ingodosi yakhe abesiyilobolile waqeda. Akaze mina ngiphuma ngingena eMafulethini njengebhayisikobho ebengiyibona yenzeka efulethini namba
33 khona Ondini lapho ilungu ebelikhuluma ngami belijwayele khona nalapho bekuhlala khona ingodosi kaThabethe. Abahlala ezindlini zotshani bangabodlala ngezikhuni zomlilo.


Angifuni ukusho ukuthi lowo wesifazane nguThembi Mkhize. Angithandi ukusho ukuthi uyisisebenzi saleliPhalamende. "Indlu yegagu iyanetha".
                                                                                                 4054


Amalungu mawapheze ukungena emaxhibeni eminye imizi. Ngixwayisa nabanye abathanda izindaba zemizi ukuba bakhulume ezemizi yabo behlukane nemizi yabanye abantu ngoba boze
bathinte abangathintwa abayokusho yonke into ngamahlazo abo thina esingenandaba nawo.


Ngiyakwamukela ukuxolisa kwelungu ngoba likubekile ukuthi belikhushukelwe imimoya. Mhlawumbe kodingeka ihhovisi lakho Somlomo lelekelelwe uMnyango weZokuthutha ukuba kubekhona
lokho okuhlola utshwala emalungeni ukuze afuthiswe kuqala angezi ukuzophoxa abanye abantu ngoba egabe ngokuthi azohoxisa emveni kwesikhathi.


TRANSLATION: Hon Speaker and your House. I rise to comment on the budget speech and the report presented in this House by the Finance Committee. I wish to commend the Minister of
Finance and the Department for the skill they possess in budgeting.


Secondly, right from the onset, I wish to comment on media reports relating directly to me in this House. The member withdrew it, however it is on record, therefore my response should also be
on record before I accept the apology.


I started staying at Ulundi in 1979 with my father, who passed away still residing at A120 Ulundi. In 1989 I stayed at No. 30 Inkosi ET Xolo, a flat I am still living in all these years. I live with my
children Njobenhle who is 18, and Tshitshi who is 15 and my wife Thembelihle Patience Gwala nee Dludla, who I married in broad daylight. The said marriage was solemnised by Rev D N
Nyandeni.


Even now, kaDludla is at the flat with a two year old child - Sibusisiwe. I reside in the flat and I am paying for it, not to live promiscuously. My only wife is kaDludla, I am not a polygamist with
two wives and a concubine. "Down with secret lovers. Down!!!" [LAUGHTER] Three women have never fallen in love with me.


I have never seduced Mr Thabethe's fiancee for whom he had finished paying lobola. I have never gone from flat to flat like a bioscope. I saw at Flat No. 33 Ulundi, where the member that was
speaking about me used to frequent and that is where Thabethe's fiancee was staying. People living in glass houses must not throw stones.


I do not want to say that the woman is Thembi Mkhize. I do not want to say that she is an employee of this Parliament. It is really a question of the pot calling the kettle black.


Members should desist from interfering in other people's affairs. I am warning others who like interfering in other people's affairs to refrain from that because they will end up barking up the
wrong trees, who will reveal all their disgraceful activities in which we have no interest.


I accept the member's apology for he stated that his emotions were high. Perhaps your office Mr Speaker, in conjunction with the Department of Transport, should consider having devices to
test alcohol levels in the bloodstream so that they do not come here to humiliate other people under the pretext of tendering an apology afterwards. T/E


Coming back to the debate on the adjustment estimates and finance reports, as well as remarks made by other members here, mine is an arduous task. The purpose of the review is to
ascertain the expenditure trends in the Provincial Government as well as to ascertain whether the performance targets set by the departments for the 2003/2004 financial year have been met.
                                                                                               4055


One can see that the committee was limited to votes 1, 2, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11 and 13.


There is a grave concern over what is described as a "critical state" of financial affairs in the Province with a full year projected over expenditure as at 30 September 2003 of R2,082 billion for
the 2003/2004 financial year. This, according to the document, can plunge the Province into its worst financial crisis to date, surpassing even the 1997/1998 crisis when the National Treasury
intervention was imposed on KZN through the enforcement of section 100 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa.


It is stipulated in the report tabled in this House that the main transgressor in this instance is vote 13, Social Welfare and Population Development, which accounts for R1,31 billion of the
projected over expenditure. This is followed by Health at R490,19 million, and Education at R280,082 million.


It is alluded to that the Social Welfare and Population Development in KwaZulu-Natal is consuming an "unfair" percentage of the 85% of the total budget set aside for Social Welfare, Health and
Education, and that, as a result, both Health and Education become underfunded, thus the latter are placed under "enormous pressure" to cut costs.


However, as has been said in this House by myself and my colleagues time and again, societies do not live with numbers and figures. Our communities who face starvation, malnutrition,
HIV/AIDS and death are not really concerned whether the Gross National Product of our country has increased or the Growth Employment and Redistribution Strategy has delivered a solid
macro-economic stability that makes our country the jewel of the development world.


What counts for us and what must count for everyone in this House is that for large numbers of our people, and especially for our children, the future of our nation faces serious problems.


As the Cape Argus of 24 September 2003 reported, according to the Minister of Social Development, Dr Zola Skweyiya, there were a total of 5,3 million children in South Africa who were
severely deprived and frequently went to bed hungry. 27% of these were in KwaZulu-Natal, the highest number in the country, followed by the Eastern Cape where 23% of young people
between zero and 17 years old were suffering. Additional research released by the Institute for Democracy in South Africa indicated that a total of 10,5 million of the 18 million South African
children live below the poverty datum line.


What do we have here then? A social catastrophe of major proportions where one quarter of our country's children go to bed starving, facing the disaster of malnutrition, staring death in the
face because of AIDS, unemployment and the legacy of apartheid. Yes, we can still condemn and mention this destructive legacy, but the key question is, for how many years will we use it as a
valid excuse?


The latest estimates by the Medical Research Council put AIDS orphans in South Africa at 500 000 which is expected to reach 1,2 million in the next two years. The reality is that more children
are orphaned by the day and social grants need to become more accessible to children and the elderly, the majority of whom look after these children anyway.


The latest report of the Human Rights Commission pinpointed that the government is failing the poor. In the meantime unemployment throughout our country has reached over 42% and more
people lose their jobs daily.
                                                                                                  4056




Given the undoubted fact that the Department of Social Welfare has and is playing a vital role in many aspects of HIV/AIDS, as well as orphans, with innovative programmes that have become
the centres of excellence countrywide, the various accusations against the Department and its leadership seem to be motivated by political consideration, and it is evident that more funds are
called for, for the Department of Health that is headed by an ANC Minister.


This is not the honest and co-ordinated way to manage and treat a co-operative government. It is well known that there is co-operation between the two departments that have shown that they
care for our people and various aspects of suffering, disease and degradation.


While it is of vital importance to keep the mechanisms of assessment, control and evaluation intact, it is more important for us all, I hope, to alleviate poverty, ease the pain of disease and death
and look after our children.


The hearings into votes related to the Department of the Premier are associated with a number of matters pertaining to the maintenance and use of the provincial aircraft as well as the number
of flights, seat occupancy and a number of other issues.


We all need to adhere to mechanisms, procedures and rules of financial control, but we all need to agree that the hon Dr L P H M Mtshali, as Premier, is in fact the leader of the Province and a
hands on, decisive Head of Provincial Government. He is a person of action who travels widely throughout our Province to examine and solve problems of our people at all levels. His heavy
schedule is well known to all of us.


Of course it is important for the Province to examine the cost effectiveness of the service, but the key issue here is can we really put a price and a financial consideration and do cost cutting,
when the Head of Provincial Leadership is duty-bound to serve his people?


Can we really put a financial constraint on the excellence and real activism, strategising in implementing service and delivery? I have no doubt that the administrative and organisational aspects
of this Resolution will be dealt with in time, but there is a strong plea on our party's side for the opposition to desist leaking confidential information to the press in order to gain political capital
and demean the IFP and the Premier. The Premier is nationally and internationally respected for his stature and services as well as delivery in his Province KwaZulu-Natal.


The Resolution dealing with the KZN Gambling Board and Amafa aKwaZulu-Natali deal with completely different aspects of our public and economic life and they will be dealt with separately
and strategically and according to existing and forthcoming legislation. However, there are different social and economic entities, with Amafa aKwaZulu-Natali having played a very important
role in the social and cultural life of our Province. Some of my colleagues over the years have outlined with considerable detail the cultural significance of this body and it is incumbent upon us
to create the necessary conditions for its financial and economic existence.


We all agree that the physical condition of our schools is poor and there is an urgent need to rectify this situation as a matter of priority. Our schools are our future and the Ministry of Education
and Culture has shown conclusively that under its present leadership we will move the aims and objectives of our Provincial and National Government forward.
                                                                                                4057




It is really imperative that the financial control deficiencies in the Legislature, including those relating to the non-implementation of the Executive Board policy, including accounts and overseas
study tours, need to be addressed so that these deficiencies can be rectified.


We must abide diligently in regard to accountability and transparency at all levels.


THE SPEAKER: 30 seconds.


MR M B GWALA: The costs associated with the Department of the Royal Household need to be ironed out, and in this instance it is important once more to caution members, especially those
in the opposition, to desist from leaking inaccurate information to the media to gain political mileage. They do not harm the IFP but put the dignity of His Majesty the King in question. This to us
is completely unacceptable. I thank you.


THE SPEAKER: Colleagues, I think that I will adjourn the House for lunch now and we will continue our debate after two.


             THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE SUSPENDED AT 12:56
                               RESUMED AT 14:07


THE SPEAKER: We will continue with our debate. The next member to deliberate is hon member Mrs Thakur-Rajbansi. You have eight minutes.


MRS S THAKUR-RAJBANSI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Hon members, the PFMA since its inception on 1 April 2000, has formed a part of a broader government strategy on improving financial
management in the public sector, and for this the Minority Front is extremely grateful, because without these valuable guidelines good governance would certainly have been just a pie in the
sky.


Hon members I say this because there are actually two schools of thought. One is that financial management can be an obstacle to service delivery and, secondly, financial management is
essential for service delivery. I do believe in the latter. The reason for this is that for the past few days we have had a very good example and you could have actually used these two schools of
thought with respect to the non-compliance of Amafa.


What was outstanding work on behalf of this committee was the fact of sound monitoring of the compliance. I do believe that this will set a very good example to other public entities or
departments of how procedures have to be followed for financial accountability. Most importantly, it shows the strengths of these committees in Parliament.


Remember, hon members, if any party uses good governance as a theme for the 2004 elections, then how this Legislature and its hon members run the finances of the public out there is
paramount.
                                                                                                4058




I believe that knowledge actually creates a lot of awareness. Therefore one may ask what is sound financial management? There are only three pillars on which this is built. One of them is a
proper control environment. Secondly, it must aim to capture data correctly. That means that you have to employ capable people to capture the data as well. And of course, thirdly, strategic
planning has to be linked to the resources.


I do believe in these, especially because the three Departments that have overspent in this financial year actually have to keep in mind these three pillars of sound financial management. I say
this because there is a report on financial misconduct and I do not know if members have read this report by the Public Service Commission. This is proof enough that the analysis and the
findings on page 11 of this report show very clearly that of all nine provinces in this country KwaZulu-Natal has the most affected departments, the highest number of cases, the least number of
officials that have been found not guilty or against whom the cases have been withdrawn, and of course we have the highest number of officials that have been charged and found guilty.


Hon members, this is not a good picture or a good reflection of our Province. A picture like this also makes it very difficult for us to put a case to National about all our prevailing problems like
poverty and HIV/AIDS, crime, unemployment or rural development. Therefore we can only access a better provincial budget if we make a concerted effort to run our departments efficiently and
transparently.


Adhering to the principles of the PFMA means good record keeping by all departments. I say this because even in Public Accounts it was repeatedly stated that reconciliation of invoices,
etcetera was very weak in the departments.


Our departments need to be pro-active; they do not have to be re-active, especially when addressing financial misconduct. They can only do this by making all officials familiar with the PFMA.
Hon members, we need to invest in human capital in order to yield the performance that we want to achieve. If all of these above can be taken into account, then I trust that we will be able to
adequately budget for the needs of KwaZulu-Natal.


Mr Speaker, the MF has fully participated in the Public Accounts Committees as well as the Finance Committee meetings, therefore we fully support the report that has been presented by the
Chairperson.


Hon members, since this is my final speech due to our imminent recess, I want to take this opportunity on behalf of the Minority Front to wish all the hon members of this Legislature, as well as
all our dedicated staff, a wonderful recess until we meet again next year. Thank you.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: The next hon member is Mrs Downs. The hon member Qoma. The next member is hon Mr Slabbert. You have four minutes.


MR J H SLABBERT: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker the hon members have listened to a lot of detail today. I want to deviate a little bit from that and then I will come back.
                                                                                                 4059




Mr Speaker, on the last sitting day I cannot but remember my first sitting day of this year. That was of course in Parliament in Cape Town. I was looking forward to a year of making a
constructive contribution to the ongoing miracle of change that was sweeping across South Africa. Little did I know then that for me this year was going to be one of dramatic change in my own
political life. I know now that if Bartholomew Diaz had continued his journey, that the Cape would have been called the Cape of Tranquillity and Natal the Province of Storms.


And storms we had, Mr Speaker. It started for me with my posting to this Legislature to be monitored and immediately faced with a window period. Like others that felt trapped, I took the
opportunity to walk through that open window.


When I formed the PDP in April this year during the floor crossing, I made it clear that the PDP will promote and support any efforts by the ANC and the IFP in pursuit of peace and development
in this Province.


In my opinion, Mr Speaker, ever since then I have held this position in all debates and issues of critical importance in this Legislature.


Mr Speaker, another issue that is worth raising - it was mentioned by Mrs Cronje that the Executive is not taking this Legislature seriously, but the press is also not taking this Legislature
seriously. We were discussing serious issues, issues that can become a scandal, this week. But if you look at The Witness, what is the headline? "Straeuli out as Bok coach." The Mercury,
"Out Goes Straeuli and Oberholzer." I do not know what is wrong with them.


AN HON MEMBER: INTERJECTION.


MR J H SLABBERT: Ja, Staaldraad. I forgot about that. Mr Speaker, when we come back next year, I want to put a question to the hon Minister to inform this House what happened to the
rent paid for the houses and flats in Ulundi for almost the past two years? This Legislature cannot be silent about that. This government is spending money as if it is going out of fashion. I am
not going into detail. You should all know what I am talking about. And if you do not know, I will tell you.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR J H SLABBERT: Give me more time, Mr Speaker. I will do it with pleasure.


Mr Speaker, I want to raise another issue that should now really be investigated to get finality on whether it is viable or not. I know that it is perhaps a contentious issue but I feel I would not be
doing my job if I did not do it. The issue of the King Shaka Airport must now be finalised.


THE SPEAKER: 30 seconds.
                                                                                              4060


MR J H SLABBERT: Mr Speaker, in conclusion I can honestly say that politics is alive in this Province. I will certainly enjoy a bit of a break and wish all members and officials a happy festive
season. Enjoy a well deserved rest with your families. Come back safely in 2004. God bless you all. Thank you, sir.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Cele, do you have any point of order?


MR B H CELE: I am just worried that after two there is still a member in his pyjamas in the House. [LAUGHTER] The hon member Mr Ntombela.


THE SPEAKER: I believe that it is out of order if that is the case. [LAUGHTER]
HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! The next member to deliberate is hon member Mr Krog. You have seven minutes to do so.


MR J KROG: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I see hon Volker is not in the House. Probably, being a senior of this House, he is entitled to have a nap, but his challenges cannot go unchallenged. I
acknowledge that I might not have used the right word when I said `instruct' the Auditor-General. It might have been better to use the word `request'.


AN HON MEMBER: The hon member has just come in.


MR J KROG: Has he awakened? Mr Speaker, the principle of the matter is whether we all support that performance audits be done in this Legislature. I am very happy to be new here and not
reborn as His Master's Voice of the ANC. [LAUGHTER]


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR J KROG: Mr Speaker, may I be protected?


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order, Mr Volker.


MR J KROG: Mr Speaker, thank you. In the main part of my address I indicated the importance that we have to attach to ensuring that we spend our money well. I want to mention a few
aspects where I consider we are not spending our money well.


During the end of the previous financial year, the Financial Committee, the Agricultural Committee and the Environmental Committee visited DET projects and Xosindlala projects. Most of them
                                                                                                4061


were not working. Hundreds of thousands of rands were spent and wasted.


We visited firstly a sewing group with a shop rented in an expensive shopping centre in Mooi River which was not selling anything and one of the most expensive embroidery machines
purchased was missing. With the pressures on the clothing industry, as we have heard today, what hope have they to succeed?


We also visited a communal vegetable farm in Bruntville which was not producing anything, on a piece of land lying idle.


We visited a project where willow branches for basket making were to be harvested and where buildings and infrastructure were not utilised.


Contrasting this, Mr Speaker, we visited a brick-making co-operative also in Bruntville and men and women were working and competing with other suppliers in the market. That was money
well spent. We as a Legislature in the thousands of projects that we run need some sort of performance audit and a report-back to this Legislature to decide whether our money is spent well.


We visited a chicken broiler near Ulundi which was only stocked with chicks a day or two before we arrived, but there was a waste of money with expensive PVC piping and other infrastructure
that was idle and not being used.


We visited communal farms where nothing was achieved and supplying food security to the people was not happening.


We all asked the question, is the money spent on extension officers to assist emerging farmers working in achieving optimum production? Most of the committee agreed that they did not think
so.


I move on, Mr Speaker. We have a critical shortage of classrooms, schools and toilets in KwaZulu-Natal. The average cost by the Department of Public Works of building these classrooms is
between R90 000 and R100 000 per classroom, which I consider not to be value for money. This matter was also raised in the Finance Committee.


No wonder that the Department of Education has decided not to use Public Works but to use Ithala Bank and other organisations to build classrooms at plus/minus R30 000 per classroom.
This makes a mockery of the Public Works' vision of being the preferred service provider of accommodation to client departments.


Where is the money spent to maintain government buildings? Because schools and other buildings are in a shocking state. How long is it going to take the Department to complete an asset
register, to control, protect and maintain the assets of this government and to recover income due to it?


How long is it going to take to complete service level agreements between the Department of Public Works and other departments? Departments probably do not want to enter into an
agreement with an ineffective department. I would not, Mr Speaker.
                                                                                              4062


New staff is appointed notwithstanding 700 staff members being declared in excess to operational requirements in terms of the PSCBC Resolution 7 of 2002.


Accommodation in existing government buildings, where there is a surplus, is exchanged for offices at the cost of more than R180 000 per month to the Province. With a 7 % escalation over
10 years, Mr Speaker, I think we all should consider that as wastage.


THE SPEAKER: 30 seconds.


MR J KROG: Coming to visits by the committee to the Sisonke area, the report reads, Mr Speaker, as a dereliction of its duty. It reads:


        Matatiele visit. Four classrooms for R387 000 handed over on 18 October, not in use. Building shifting.


We can go on:


        Four classrooms not in use, Nomzami.


        In use, 190 learners .


        Nkalabantwana, R370 000, work not finished.


Mr Speaker, I urge you, unless we really have performance audits and know where we are going and where we are spending our money, we will not be effective. I thank you.


THE SPEAKER: The next member to deliberate is hon member Mr Ngidi. You have 15 minutes.


MR S B NGIDI: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for allowing me to debate. I am going to talk about two things. First of all I am going to talk about the Committee Report which was tabled by the Chair
and also talk about the Appropriation Bill with the Committee Report which has been tabled today.


But before I do that, I want to say that Mr Slabbert says he is going to come back next year. He is fortunate, he is No 23 on the ANC list, but he is also talking that he formed a new party, the
PDP. You see, he has got this luck that ...


AN HON MEMBER: INTERJECTION.


THE SPEAKER: Order, hon Mr Slabbert.
                                                                                              4063




MR S B NGIDI: ... and being anybody to the ANC, he is put up at No 23. He is very fortunate. Some people are more fortunate than others.


I would also like to talk about Amafa aKwaZulu and the heritage. Hon Cronje spoke about the fact that if she was not in politics she would be in an environment dealing with culture and the
heritage. In that vein, she also spoke about the Zulu kings and the heritage of the Zulu kings. But apparently she was not happy about that heritage of the Zulu kings.


Now I only say to her, the Zulu kings, and I myself as a subject of that Kingdom, do not have to apologise to anybody for being Zulu. Therefore we are going to promote our heritage in any
manner we see fit.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): A point of order, Mr Speaker.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order!


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): I rise on Rule 106(1) and I request you to permit me an explanation during the debate when the hon Ngidi verbally alleges - I allege that a material part of
my speech has been misquoted or misunderstood. So I ask you to grant me an explanation in terms of Rule 106(1).


THE SPEAKER: I will consider that and then I will come back to the member.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): I think if you read the Rule, hon Speaker, you will not say next week. It says:


         The Presiding Officer must permit an explanation.


THE SPEAKER: Hon member, I can see the Rule. I understand it. You finish your speech, hon member.


MR S B NGIDI: Amafa akwaZulu-Natali deals with the heritage of this Province and 80% of this Province are of Zulu descent. If you talk of heritage in a province where we have predominantly
Zulu people, you will invariably have most of the areas which Amafa akwaZulu-Natali are dealing with, dealing with that majority of people.


Hon Cronje may be thinking of the Afrikaner heritage which I submit is a very wonderful heritage. If she wants to pursue that, we will support her endeavours in this Province. Amafa does all
those particular things.
                                                                                                 4064


Another thing, nobody has been arrested for visiting the heritage sites in this Province which are under Amafa aKwaZulu-Natali. The hon Cronje says we do not know where these things are.
There is a need to begin to go and visit these sites.


THE SPEAKER: Hon member, there is a point of order. Mr Cele, point of order?


MR B H CELE: I rise on the point of order that the statement the member has just issued is a racist one. I will come back to you, Speaker. There is this Zulu heritage. If Mrs Cronje wants to
pursue the Afrikaner heritage, she can do that. I will submit that the statement is racist. That will be on Rule 97.


THE SPEAKER: I will make my ruling tomorrow. Thank you. Continue, hon member.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR S B NGIDI: Amafa aKwaZulu-Natali looks after the Afrikaner monument and that is a Zulu heritage site. It is a Zulu heritage site. It is in KwaZulu. It may have its own Afrikaner origins.
That is part of what I am actually saying and there is nothing racist about saying I am Zulu. Absolutely nothing racist.


The second thing which I would like to talk about is this report.


THE SPEAKER: Order! There is a point of order. Hon Mr Cele?


MR B H CELE: The point of order, again in terms of Rule 97 that I have submitted that the statement is racist, and the Speaker will be making his ruling tomorrow, on Saturday, but the member
insists on referring to the statement that is subject to a ruling. I find it out of order.


THE SPEAKER: When the Presiding Officer says that he will investigate and come back and make the ruling tomorrow, in fact he wants to thoroughly investigate the matter and properly make
his ruling accordingly. So I cannot therefore be forced to make rulings which I myself may in the future have to apologise for. That is the reason why I am saying that I will make the ruling
tomorrow. That will allow me to investigate the matter properly and come back to the House. Thank you.


MR S B NGIDI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am Zulu and I am an hon member and I am not a racist, and there is nothing racist about that. I am not ashamed of that, that I am Zulu. Since I was
born I have not been ashamed of that. Nobody can actually say I should cower under some table and hide my head or hang my head in shame because I said I am Zulu.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR V C XABA: On a point of order.
                                                                                                4065




THE SPEAKER: Hon member ...


MR V C XABA: Somlomo, ngicela ukwazi ukuthi unguMzulu wangempela yini? [UHLEKO] [Mr Speaker, may I know if he is really Zulu]? [LAUGHTER]


THE SPEAKER: Continue, hon member.


MR S B NGIDI: This particular report, Mr Speaker, of the hearings into various votes by the Finance Portfolio Committee is very difficult to support for a number of reasons. One of the reasons
has clearly been demonstrated by the Chair of Finance just now. The manner in which this portfolio committee functions is in this sarcastic manner. Whenever either myself, Mr Mzobe,
Mr Mbatha or Mr Mcoyi wanted to contribute to the development of this document, the Chair would actually, in this sarcastic manner, dismiss us.


When the hon Scott or Cronje wanted to make a contribution he would actually easily allow them to do so.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! There is a point of order. Hon member Mr Cele, what is the point of order?


MR B H CELE: Point of order was about a coat, when hon member Mr Mcoyi was taking his coat off. [LAUGHTER]


THE SPEAKER: Continue, hon member. Please, I would request that we not abuse the point of order. Thank you.


MR S B NGIDI: That is why this report is actually saying, even though we all agree that the whole Province is going to override this budget, it is a projected thing. But this report actually states
that the transgressor in all of this is Social Welfare. That is how they look at it. But I am actually going to show you, Mr Speaker and hon members, that a partisan type of a report is not good
for the Province.


Health increased its conditions of service, the rank and file promotions for its servants, without national authority, right? Because the Department of Public Service is the one which decides on
public service salaries. Without authority they increased this. The question is they did that without having a budget for that.


You see the Finance Committee would actually come round and say, "Look, here is a department which has acted and used money completely outside the budget." But this Finance Committee
is a wonderful committee. It actually sees who is in charge of the particular portfolio. If this portfolio was anyone else they would say, "If you use money outside the budget, you are a
transgressor. Right? And therefore maybe you should go to gaol."


There is a head of department who was threatened and told: "You see that head of department is in big trouble." It is a particular head of department who is in a particular department who is in
big trouble. He is someone who is going to go to gaol, simply because of the unfortunate circumstance that, that head of department happens to work in a department which is held by the IFP.
                                                                                                  4066




But if you are in a department which is held by the ANC, what happens to the head of department? The portfolio committee first said this: "We understand and we condone the over expenditure
in Health."


AN HON MEMBER: Ja, ja.


MR S B NGIDI: And I said to them: "Look, I do not think I accept this. Let us try and improve the situation." I said: "Look, here is my own contribution to that. Why do you not put this
statement, the committee wishes to register its concern over the over-expenditure in this Department." It is just a statement. And what did the Chair do? He said: "No, we are removing the
whole paragraph which has anything to do with Health."


You have a Finance Portfolio Committee which, if you look at the list of votes which are being brought up in the media reviews, the Premier. Why did the Premier's vote come here? Because
maybe hon Scott does not like the Premier travelling in aeroplanes, so aviation is going to be reviewed. It is still going to come next year or whatever time.


Then you have Education. Why Education? Because it is an IFP Minister. Then you have Housing. Why did they review Housing? Because Housing is now no longer under an ANC member,
it is now in the DA. They do not talk about the fact that a lot of money was wasted in housing, millions......


THE SPEAKER: Order, hon member.


MR S B NGIDI: No, they do not talk about those things.


THE SPEAKER: There is a point of order. Hon member Mrs Scott, what is your point of order.


MRS B SCOTT: I am standing up on a point of order in terms of Rule 97(2) that the hon member is deliberately misleading this House. He was actually at the committee when the departments
were chosen.


THE SPEAKER: I will request that the hon member puts that in writing and sends it to my office, so that I can make a proper ruling.


MRS B SCOTT: I will definitely do so.


THE SPEAKER: Thank you. Continue, hon member.


MR S B NGIDI: Mr Speaker, hon Scott knows we are seated here. At any time the hon Scott and hon Cronje wanted to speak, they could just speak at any time. We had to raise our hands.
                                                                                              4067


At times we had raised both hands. And at times we were lame from raising our hands. And what did the Chairman do? He would just ignore us. And when I complained he said: "Look,
Mr Ngidi, I have not recognised you. I have not recognised you."


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR S B NGIDI: Everything I am saying is on record. It is contained in Hansard and can be found at any time.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order!


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order, please, order! What is your point of order, hon member?


MRS L JOHNSON: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am rising on a point of order. The hon member Mr Ngidi, please be honest. I attended most of the meetings. Please do not exaggerate. Be
honest. What you are saying is a half truth.


THE SPEAKER: Again I will request that the hon member Mrs Johnson puts that in writing. The interpretation of what you are saying is that the member is deliberately misleading the House. I
will ask you to put that in writing. Continue, hon member.


MR S B NGIDI: Hon member Johnson did not attend all the meetings. If she did attend meetings she left early. We attended the meetings until 22:00. By 17:00 she had long gone. And all of
a sudden she knows better. She was not present at all times. That she knows.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR S B NGIDI: One big problem we have is we have a R250 million overrun in Health, and this has been as a result of a carry over of these rank and leg promotions. And this is with us now.
And what you are telling the taxpayers is: "There is nothing wrong in Health. We accept all those wrong things in Health."


AN HON MEMBER: We condone them.


MR S B NGIDI: We condone those particular issues. But the people are wrong, these people and those people. I am actually saying you cannot fool all the taxpayers all the time.


AN HON MEMBER: Yes.
                                                                                                4068




MR S B NGIDI: And the taxpayers have now come to realise that you cannot have a financial report which picks and chooses. Let me also tell you there is an overrun in Transport. The hon
Cronje will actually support me, and she has said it already, "There is an overrun in Transport." But she will tell everybody outside, "No, it is a minor thing. You see it is not that much. It is a
minor little thing."


And there is a projected overrun in the Royal Household and what will the hon Cronje say? "It is a big thing. It should be mentioned to everybody."


It then brings me back to the heritage and considerations around the heritage. I was not simply joking when I talked about the heritage and about the Zulu kings. I am simply saying, we support
those particular things.


It is unfortunate that some people view the official handover of the Ondini Palace, which has been lying empty for the past ten years, as an insignificant event. It actually reminds me of during
apartheid they used the apartheid laws to say, "You are not deserving this." They used different laws to say we do not deserve this. And what they are doing now is they are using different laws
now, the same laws we have, to target the marginalised who are mainly the African people in the Province. Those are the marginalised, and who are the worst off people? They are many. The
African people in the Province.


And then what they will do - Makhaye knows this - they will actually go and say, "Look, let us go through the Traditional Affairs things." Right?


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order!


MR S B NGIDI: I am not talking about you, Makhaye; I am talking about a different Makhaye ... [LAUGHTER] If I was talking about you I would say hon Makhaye.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order!


MR S B NGIDI: Now if you want to ...


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! Hon Minister Makhaye, what is your point of order?


MR D H MAKHAYE: (Minister of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs): Is it in order that a guduza tells lies here? [LAUGHTER]
                                                                                            4069




THE SPEAKER: Well, that is not a point of order. Do you have a point of order, hon member Mrs Scott? What is your point of order?


MRS B SCOTT: I am standing on Rule 96 that when hon Mr Ngidi refers to the hon Mr Makhaye that he actually uses the word honourable. And it is Rule 96.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. Continue, hon member. You are left with three minutes 35 seconds.


MR S B NGIDI: Because the hon Makhaye is arrogant. He will actually insult me and call me a guduza. You see that is arrogance, pure and simple. It actually says you know some people
are better off than others. He is a colossus and I am just a mere mortal. And then he starts giving me names. That is the type of thing that such a person as the hon Makhaye always does,
looks down upon people. This is what I am saying, this particular committee targets those weak people.


In the Traditional Affairs they say, "Who are they? It is Amakhosi." The people in the Amakhosi areas, they target them. What do they want to do? They want to remove as much money from
these people as possible. That is what they do.


AN HON MEMBER: INTERJECTION.


MR S B NGIDI: What do they target again?


THE SPEAKER: Order, hon member.


MR S B NGIDI: They go and target the Royal Household.


THE SPEAKER: Order, hon member. There is a point of order again. Hon Mr Mthimkhulu, what is your point of order?


MR M E MTHIMKHULU: Mr Speaker, I rise on Rule 99. I would like to know whether the hon member can take a question about his performing like this just because he wants to be put on the
list.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! That is not proper, hon member. Are you prepared to take a question, hon member?
                                                                                                  4070




MR S B NGIDI: No, no, I am not prepared.


THE SPEAKER: You may continue, hon member.


MR S B NGIDI: You have a situation where we do not support this report simply because it is a partisan report. It is a report which is designed to make other people look grand and better. It is
a report which is designed to make other people look incompetent and therefore become targets for different actions. It is a type of report which is foisted upon all of us because it is used in
order that it comes in here. It has used different floor crossers and it is this type of report which is now forced upon us because the floor crossers have actually made this particular flimsy
majority at this particular moment to say this is now a report of the Finance Portfolio Committee.


AN HON MEMBER: You were afraid to cross.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


AN HON MEMBER: He was brave not to cross.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order!


MR S B NGIDI: May I conclude, Mr Speaker. I want to thank the Treasury, the Minister and the Head of Department. This Appropriation Bill went through bumpy roads. I know that they were
made to move backwards and forwards with regard to the changes which the committee wanted.


There were two changes. There was the change with regard to Amafa aKwaZulu-Natali and there were also changes to vote 11. And it emphasises what I am actually saying that this is an
attempt to target the weak and the vulnerable and the marginalised people of the Province.


You see when you move out of all these legalities they use in the PFMA and you come underneath that, the reality becomes stark clear that this is what is being done. If it happens two times,
you say it is a coincidence, but if it happens more than two times, then you begin to say it is planned, it is programmed. It is a bad thing, it is malicious.


I was thanking the hon Minister and Sipho Shabalala. I know they had this vexatious period of going through this problem. May I thank you kindly, Mr Speaker.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: The next member to deliberate is hon member Mrs Scott. You have 17 minutes to do so.
                                                                                                  4071




MRS B SCOTT: Mr Speaker and hon members, for the members of the Finance Portfolio Committee, most of whom also serve on the Public Accounts Standing Committee, this past month
has been an extremely long haul with members getting home late each night after hours of in depth financial interrogation. It is no wonder we are all so red eyed and short tempered, hon Ngidi.


But if you look at the high standard and depth of our questioning in committee and the comprehensive content of our report and Resolutions, I truly believe we can walk away knowing we have
completed a job well done.


AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!


MRS B SCOTT: And for this we have to thank the dedication and commitment of our Chair, the hon Cyril Xaba, who, given the political dynamics of our committee, has the patience of Job. We
also need to extend a special thanks to Provincial Treasury for their support in all our deliberations.


For the most part, I am going to limit my address to the committee's Midterm Review Report. The dire financial crisis in KwaZulu-Natal is of great concern to the ANC. The additional
appropriation of R484 million from National Government does not go far to ameliorate our projected over expenditure of R2,082 billion.


As long as the profligate spending of the Department of Social Welfare and Population Development does not exceed the current projections, this Province is still set to plunge into a R1,6 billion
deficit, R600 million more than our all time low in 1997/98, when KwaZulu-Natal was forced to fork out nearly R1 million a day on interest on our overdraft, and National Government had to
invoke section 100 of the Constitution to bring this Province back into line.


As Provincial Treasury has correctly pointed out, KwaZulu-Natal is not alone in this crisis. The over expenditure in provincial budgets throughout South Africa is almost exclusively due to the
massive uptake in social assistance grants that have largely been brought about by the slackening of regulations and control in the distribution of these grants.


Whilst the disability grant category is limited to persons who, by virtue of their physical or mental disability, are unable to work or look after themselves, this category has insidiously become a
"catchall" category to cover just about anybody who is ill, with scant regard to the nature and seriousness of the illness, and irrespective of whether that person is gainfully employed or not.


Highly irresponsible statements made by certain political leaders in this Province that anybody with HIV/AIDS qualifies for a social assistance grant, whether or not he or she is incapable or is an
able member of society, merely serves to exacerbate the current financial crisis in government.


The Legislature cannot dwell on the woes of other provinces. We have to face up to our own financial crisis and manage it in the best way possible. The fact remains that the projected over
expenditure in KwaZulu-Natal is substantially higher than in any other province in South Africa.


During the committee's deliberations with the Department of Social Welfare there does not appear to be a demonstrated commitment by this Department to curb its expenditure and its rapidly
                                                                                                   4072


escalating intake of new social grant applicants.


There are members of our Provincial Executive who hold the view, "To hell with the over expenditure. National Government must find the money." The sad news to these members is that the
hon Minister of Finance Mr Trevor Manuel, in his midterm review report has made it abundantly clear there is no hidden pot of gold at the State's disposal. The fact that KwaZulu-Natal only
received an additional national appropriation of R454 million, despite our looming financial crisis, bears testimony to this. In short, hon members, we need to wake up and smell the roses.


Before I am once again grossly misrepresented by certain members in this House, I need to make it absolutely clear that the ANC does not for one moment believe that people who legitimately
qualify for social assistance grants and who currently receive them should not continue to do so. The budget allocation to Social Welfare has a built in escalation in social grant uptake to cater
for a reasonable and affordable increase in grant beneficiaries over time. This clearly falls within the ambit of our constitutional obligation that the State must take reasonable Legislative and
other measures to provide health care, food, water and social security to all its citizens, within the constraints of its available resources.


On this issue the PFMA is also clear. Accounting officers are clearly instructed to take effective and appropriate steps to prevent any overspending, and he or she may not commit a department
to any liability for which money has not been appropriated. And for those MECs and accounting officers who have not yet familiarised themselves with the PFMA, in the event of any
inconsistency between the PFMA and any other Legislation, the PFMA prevails. There is absolutely no confusion whatsoever. Where the Social Assistance Act mandates the Department of
Social Welfare to spend on certain given responsibilities, it can only spend within the confines of its budget, simple and straightforward.


A closer analysis of the procedures and practices adopted by the Department of Social Welfare in carrying out its provincial competence in terms of the Social Assistance Act, leaves much to be
desired, and the majority of members serving on the Finance Portfolio Committee adopted firm Resolutions to address these weaknesses.


Let us turn to Resolution 20.


THE SPEAKER: Order, hon member. There is a point of order. Hon Mrs kaNkosi-Shandu, what is your point of order?


MRS E E N KANKOSI-SHANDU: (Whip): Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order to ask you to rule whether it is parliamentary for an hon member to deliberately mislead this House when she
says the Department of Social Welfare must stop giving the grants to the people who deserve the grants.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MRS E E N KANKOSI-SHANDU: (Whip): I am speaking to you, Mr Speaker, not to the howlers. When it is the law of this land that was passed by National Government that people who
qualify for the benefits in Social Welfare must get them. And that hon member says they must not get them because she is earning enough.


THE SPEAKER: Again I will request that the hon member puts that in writing and submits it to my office in order for me to investigate it. Thank you. Continue, hon member.
                                                                                                  4073




MRS B SCOTT: In the past a person could only qualify for a disability grant if that person had a medical report attesting to his or her disability. The new regulations which came into effect on
1 December 2001 introduced the concept of an "assessment panel" to assess disabled beneficiaries, and firm recommendations were made by National Government on the composition of such
panels, to include inter alia: a senior social security official and a whole range of other medical people. To the shock of the committee, the Provincial Department on request provided the
composition of its newly established "assessment panels" which included ordinary community members, health workers with a Standard 4 education, ordinary teachers and clerks, none of
whom qualify in terms of the national criteria. It is these unqualified individuals who are indiscriminately determining whether or not people qualify for disability grants.


In allowing this situation to arise, not only has the Department of Social Welfare placed this Province under tremendous risk of corruption and political manipulation, it is hardly surprising to note
that instead of the estimated increase in the number of disability grant applicants to 192 000 for this financial year, this figure currently sits at 245 000 for early November, which represents
52 000 more than anticipated and a staggering growth of 41% in seven months.


As so aptly stated in our Finance Resolution:


            It is reasonable to assume that the lack of qualifications of the persons serving on the assessment panels has contributed to this sharp increase in numbers of disability grant
            beneficiaries, and puts into serious question the quality of the assessments done.


This problem of inappropriately appointed assessment panels is compounded even further by the appeals process, headed by the hon MEC himself. The hon MEC needs to explain to this
House ...


MRS E E N KANKOSI-SHANDU: (Whip): Point of order, Mr Speaker.


THE SPEAKER: There is a point of order. Hon member Mrs kaNkosi-Shandu, what is the point of order.


MRS E E N KANKOSI-SHANDU: (Whip): I rise on a point of order again, Mr Speaker, to ask you to ask the hon member to stop continuing to mislead this House, because she says the
applicants who get the grants are not assessed properly, and she says the assessing panel is not qualified enough to do the assessment. First of all, has she attended the assessment
committee? Secondly, does she know who the applicants to these grants are?


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Point of order, Mr Speaker.


MRS E E N KANKOSI-SHANDU: (Whip): There is no point of order on a point of order.
                                                                                                  4074




THE SPEAKER: There will not be a point of order on a point of order.


MRS E E N KANKOSI-SHANDU: (Whip): There is no point of order.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order!


MRS E E N KANKOSI-SHANDU: (Whip): There is not, there is not.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! I have heard what the hon member is saying. Again I will request that you put that in writing in order for me to investigate it and I will make my ruling tomorrow.
Thank you. Continue, hon member.


MRS B SCOTT: We have a situation where there is a 96% success rate in the appeals that are heard by the Appeals Board. This abnormally high success rate has massive financial
implications for the Province, and one can only assume from the scant information provided before us that the process is fundamentally flawed.


Both the assessment panels and the appeals process, used for the determination of beneficiaries of social grants require urgent investigation and review by the Department of Social Welfare, if
this Department is at all committed to curbing its reckless expenditure patterns. I have chosen the word reckless on purpose. In terms of the Oxford dictionary it means "lacking caution,
regardless of consequences and rash."


The IFP in this Province has done a lot of cheap, political grandstanding on its perceived view regarding the inadequacies in the ANC Government's management of the HIV/AIDS pandemic.
Yet, whilst the IFP unashamedly uses service delivery departments, such as the Department of Social Welfare, to hand out political gifts of money and food to their erstwhile supporters, in a
desperate bid to clutch onto the vestiges of power, this is done at the expense of the Department of Health, and at the expense of our children, through the under funding of the Department of
Education. So when there are insufficient funds for the rollout of Nevirapine for pregnant mothers, the IFP must take a long, hard look at itself before it points fingers at others.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: Order hon members. Order!


MRS B SCOTT: And while I am on this topic, the ANC would like to put the hon MEC for Social Welfare on notice, that we are well aware that your failure to spend one cent of the R68 million
food security conditional grant, is because this falls squarely within the IFP election plan, to hand out food parcels to the poor in the run up to the elections.


I would now like to return to a recurring theme in our Finance Resolutions, and that is the growing tendency of the Provincial Executive to usurp the role of the Legislature. When the Provincial
                                                                                                 4075


Executive, where majority decisions are taken on the basis of a skewed party representation that does not reflect reality, decide that an event needs to take place, a research document needs to
be written, or that certain self-inflated individuals need to be accommodated in an elaborate new office block hundreds of kilometres away from the seat of the Legislature, all of which costs
hundreds of thousands, in some case tens of millions of taxpayers' rands - and this money is not budgeted for, please do not assume that you can approve this expenditure, because you
cannot. That is clearly the function of the Legislature to whom you are accountable.


Likewise, accounting officers must be put on firm notice, that if you take instructions from the Executive Authority, that clearly constitutes a violation of the PFMA. Without abiding to section 64
of the PFMA, you and you alone will be held fully accountable for the unauthorised expenditure - and it could well cost you your job if the PFMA and Treasury Regulations section on financial
misconduct is properly applied.


In this regard, the hon MEC for Finance has had a lot to say about the failure of this Province to take appropriate disciplinary action against erring accounting officers. Hon Minister, we need to
put the ball squarely back into your court. Treasury Regulation 4.1.3 is abundantly clear:


         If an accounting officer is alleged to have committed financial misconduct, the relevant Treasury, as soon as it becomes aware of the alleged misconduct, must ensure that the
         relevant Executive Authority initiates an investigation into the matter and if the allegations are confirmed, holds a disciplinary hearing in accordance with the prescripts and agreements
         applicable in the public service.


I have purposely stressed the word "alleged", which means to "affirm without proof", in order to assist the hon MEC when he considers the full scope of his responsibility as the Head of
Treasury.


In its Midterm Expenditure Review Report, the Finance Portfolio Committee has brought to the attention of Provincial Treasury three cases of alleged financial misconduct by the accounting
officer. Once these Resolutions are passed, as Resolutions of this House, it would be foolish indeed for any MEC to abrogate their responsibility in this regard, and the Finance Portfolio
Committee will await in eager anticipation for the report on these matters on 31 January 2004.


Another transversal concern of the Finance Portfolio Committee is the reported refusal of certain public entities to account to their respective line departments, and to the Legislature. The
Director General of the Office of the Premier gave a personal account of his run in with the Gambling Board which is refusing to return its generated revenue back to the Department on an
annual basis.


AN HON MEMBER: INTERJECTION.


MRS B SCOTT: Amafa aKwaZulu-Natali is another prime example. Amafa has chosen to violate a Resolution passed by this House in May 2003 to amend its Legislation to create a fixed term
of office for its board members, and produce its long outstanding regulations.
                                                                                              4076


It has been brought to the attention of the committee that the Department of Education did indeed draft a set of Legislative amendments to the KZN Heritage Act, and that the Chairman of
Amafa threw these amendments back in pique, once realising his wings were soon to be clipped. This arrogance is contemptible and will not be tolerated by this Legislature. In this regard, in
terms of Resolution 5, the DG of the Office of the Premier has been asked to co-ordinate the review of the governing Legislation of all provincial public entities to make them more accountable.
As far as Amafa is concerned, in terms of Resolution 9, the Department of Education has until 15 January to slap this entity into line, and bring the long outstanding amendments to the House
for adoption, failing which, the ANC will not hesitate to draft these amendments on Amafa's behalf. The Chairman of Amafa can exercise his mind on that dilemma.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MRS B SCOTT: The ANC is well aware that due to the fact that the IFP Chairman of Amafa ...


THE SPEAKER: There is a point of order. Hon Minister, what is your point of order?


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): Mr Speaker, will the hon member take a very reasonable question?


HON MEMBERS: No.


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): I did not want the chorus to answer.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order!


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): I want the hon member to answer.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! Are you prepared, hon member, to take a question?


MRS B SCOTT: If I have time at the end, Mr Speaker, I will.


THE SPEAKER: Okay, thank you. Continue, hon member.


MRS B SCOTT: The ANC is well aware that due to the fact that the IFP Chairman of Amafa has a personal relationship with certain members of this House, and that this public entity is
afforded preferential access and consideration. At no point has Amafa or the Department of Education and Culture ever justified the need for the R2,8 million or 39% increased allocation to
Amafa to the Finance Portfolio Committee.
                                                                                                4077


In the absence of this information, the ANC firmly believes that this money should much rather go to fund the Department of Education and Culture's expenditure shortfall in administrative
personnel, thereby enabling the competent CFO of that Department to put its critically needed financial management controls in place.


It must be brought to Amafa's attention that the additional allocation of R2,8 million to its 2003/2004 budget is not an increase in its base line budget, nor an automatic increase in the outer
MTEF years, but constitutes an approval of a projected over expenditure. This means Amafa will need to work through its mother Department of Education and Culture, and fully justify an
increase to its budget to the Finance Portfolio Committee for the 2004/2005 financial year. And I suggest Amafa abides by the PFMA when doing so, and not going around the corner behind
the Department of Education's back to the Treasury.


I want, in the few minutes that I have left, because I had promised him, to respond to the hon Mr Aulsebrook.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MRS B SCOTT: Hon Aulsebrook, Cabinet brings in politics by expecting accounting officers to do their political bidding, irrespective of whether such instructions are in violation of the law. If the
hon Aulsebrook wants some concrete examples of the negative abuse of power, why does he not reflect on the unlawful expenditure for salaries of the IFP's SPUs?


The IFP's use of State property to conduct their National Council meetings in Ulundi without paying for it. Or the illegal occupation of IFP MPs and MPLs in the Legislature flats in Ulundi, in
direct violation of the Executive Board decision. Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MRS B SCOTT: To the hon Krog, on 10 November 2003 at its first midyear review interview - and this is also for the sake of the hon Ngidi - the Chair of Finance specifically asked members of
the Finance Committee which departments should be called before the committee. The committee agreed to add the Premier and Royal Household. Either the hon Krog failed to open his
mouth, or, more likely, he did not pitch for the meeting. Hon Krog, do not blame your inadequacies on the committee.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MRS B SCOTT: With those words, the ANC fully supports the report and we fully support the Bill. Thank you very much.


THE SPEAKER: I will now allow the hon member Mrs Cronje to make an explanation in terms of Rule 106(1). You have three minutes to do so.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I was misquoted and/or misunderstood. I said there are wonderful archaeological sites in the Province where the Zulu Kings lived
and reigned. For the edification of the hon Mr Ngidi, I have visited every single one of these sites. I have been to the homestead of the late King Cetshwayo, his homestead that got burnt down
                                                                                                 4078


and that was rebuilt. I have been there.


AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): I have been to the homestead at uMgungundlovu where King Dingaan lived. It is a wonderful site with the most beautiful view of the area. Those who have
not been there, must take the trouble to go there.


I have been to the grave of King Shaka at kwaDukuza. I have been to Emakhosini. You may be surprised to know that I even know it means the Valley of the Kings.


I have visited just about every grave in the Emakhosini Valley.


AN HON MEMBER: Point of order.


THE SPEAKER: Order, hon member, order.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Please stop my time.


THE SPEAKER: Yes, it has been stopped. What is your point of order, hon member, Mrs kaNkosi-Shandu?


MRS E E N KANKOSI-SHANDU: (Whip): The hon member, Mr Speaker, is supposed to be reading what she had said. The many addenda that she is adding to what she should have said is
no longer part of what she said and therefore cannot be correct when answering to Mr Ngidi.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: I will allow the hon member to finish her three minutes. Thank you.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): When I was at uMgungundlovu, hon Mr Ngidi, I also went to Piet Retief's grave, if it will make you happy. I also said that my problem is not with the concept
of Amafa or looking after our cultural heritage. In fact that is what I live for. My problem is, and that is what I said, hon Mrs kaNkosi-Shandu, is with the IFP interpretation of Amafa.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): And the IFP's interpretation of culture. Hon Mr Ngidi, you are not the only Zulu. I live, sleep, drink and socialise with Zulus and they are not IFP.
                                                                                             4079




HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): I may not be a Zulu by birth but I have become a Zulu by association with my dear colleagues and comrades.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order!


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): You do not have a monopoly on being a Zulu. You do not have a monopoly on being a Zulu. The IFP does not have a monopoly on being Zulu.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order!


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): In fact the majority of the people in this Province are not Zulu. I also said ...


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! You finish your three minutes.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): I also said I have even associated and even become very fond of the hon member, Inkosi Ngubane who is also a Zulu.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Mrs Cronje. Order! Order! You may take your seat, hon member. Order, please, order! Kwangcono manje. [It is better now]. Take your seat, hon member, there is
a point of order. Hon Mr Keys, what is your point of order?


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, we would just like to know if it is parliamentary that the hon Cronje exposes whom she sleeps with. [LAUGHTER]


THE SPEAKER: I will not rule on that. Continue, hon member. Finish. Mrs Cronje, you are left with 23 seconds.


MR D H MAKHAYE: (Minister of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs): Mr Speaker.


THE SPEAKER: Is that a point of order?
                                                                                                   4080


MR D H MAKHAYE: (Minister of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs): Yes.


THE SPEAKER: What is your point of order, hon member?


MR D H MAKHAYE: (Minister of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs): Mr Speaker, is it not too rich for Mr Keys to ask that question? [LAUGHTER]


THE SPEAKER: Okay, hon member Mrs Cronje, please finish your 23 seconds.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): I also said that the problem with Amafa is that they want to keep all of this for themselves and that is wrong. It does not belong to the IFP or Amafa. The
cultural heritage of this Province belongs to all of us. And that is what I said. And it is disingenuous for the hon Mr Ngidi to make it a racist issue. But his racism is so thinly disguised ...


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: The next member to deliberate is hon member Mr Xaba, the Chairperson of the portfolio committee. 10 minutes, hon member.


MR V C XABA: Thank you, hon member. We are now concluding the debate on the two Finance Committee Reports. I do not intend responding to all the issues that were raised by hon
members in the House. But of course it was interesting to listen to the movie style debate by the hon member Mr Ngidi where he suddenly went blank about really what took place in the
Portfolio Committee on Finance.


AN HON MEMBER: It is a little amnesia.


MR V C XABA: I want to remind the hon member that he did not ...


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Cele and Ngidi, please!


MR V C XABA: The hon member did not raise the issue of rank and leg promotions in the Department of Health in the portfolio committee. I see no reason why he should raise the issue in the
House today.


He did not raise it precisely because the issue related to the 2001/2002 budget. And we were dealing with the 2003/2004 budget. But he decides to come and grandstand here and raise issues
as if they were ever raised in the committee and it is just that this mad Chairperson did not give them a chance to canvass them enough.


He reminds me of a case by the animal rights activist where they challenged the KFC in court. They were actually alleging that KFC were treating chickens inhumanely. And the KFC in its
                                                                                               4081


defence said it does not abuse chickens and it has no record of treating chickens inhumanely. So this case I have just narrated, Mr Speaker, reminds me of exactly what the hon member is like.
He is like the KFC which denies that it abuses chickens.


I do not want to talk about the things that the hon member ...


THE SPEAKER: There is a point of order, hon member. Hon member Mr Ngidi, what is your point of order?


MR S B NGIDI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on Rule 106(1) where the Presiding Officer must permit an explanation during debate when a member verbally alleges that a material part of his
or her speech has been misquoted or misunderstood. This is what the hon Xaba is doing and I am appealing, Mr Speaker, for you to allow me those three minutes. Thank you.


THE SPEAKER: Okay, I will consider that. Complete your speech, hon member Xaba.


MR V C XABA: Uma ungumzali unezingane azikhuli zonke ngokwefana ikhona eyodwa eba isigebengu ibe-mendacious. [If you are a parent with children, they do not all grow up the same.
There will be one who is a criminal and becomes mendacious].


Mr Speaker, I want to deal with the things that the hon member Mr Aulsebrook said. He said nothing. This report is not about vote 1, the Premier's vote. It includes vote 1. All he intended to
do was to actually make it a point that in each and every single paragraph he mentioned Premier, Premier, Premier, Premier. I want to state, that it is not about the Premier's vote.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order!


MR J F AULSEBROOK: I rise referring to the hon member's misleading the House. There was definitely no reference to the Premier in every paragraph. Please check the records. That is
incorrect and there needs to be appropriate action taken.


THE SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, good people. Again I will request the hon member to put that in writing and I will make my ruling tomorrow.


MR V C XABA: So I do not want people to come and pretend here, just because the Premier is in the House. I can tell you, if the Premier was not in the House, the things that were uttered this
afternoon would not have been uttered.


AN HON MEMBER: Yes!
                                                                                             4082


MR V C XABA: I think let us be fair. Let us be fair. Why are they behaving in the manner they are behaving?


AN HON MEMBER: Because of the list process.


MR V C XABA: I just want to deal with the issues that were raised by the hon member Mr Krog. Hon Mr Krog, you said that last year we called on all the Departments to appear before us.
That is not true. So again you want to insinuate that we were selective in actually inviting the Departments to come before the portfolio committee. You were present in a meeting when the hon
Chairperson asked if members had other departments to add to the list. Indeed inclusively - collectively, they decided that we needed to add the Premier and the Royal Household. So the
whole process was inclusive. For this hon member to come to this House and pretend as if the decision was arbitrarily taken by the hon Chairperson of the Finance Committee, it is unfortunate.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: Order, hon members, order. There is a point of order, hon Mr Krog.


MR J KROG: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The member is misleading the House, Mr Speaker.


AN HON MEMBER: No, you are.


THE SPEAKER: Again I will request that you put that in writing, hon member, that he is misleading the House.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: Order, please, order! Put that in writing, hon member Mr Krog.


MR J KROG: Mr Speaker, I think you must listen to my point of order.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR J KROG: Mr Speaker, you must just hear my point of order.


THE SPEAKER: Order, order, order, order! You have said, hon member, that the hon member Mr Xaba is misleading the House. So I am saying that you must put that in writing in order for
us to investigate it and make a ruling.
                                                                                             4083


MR J KROG: Mr Speaker, may I just say how he is misleading the House?


THE SPEAKER: You put that in writing, hon member. You write that down please.


MR J KROG: I just want to say what he is saying, Mr Speaker.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order! Continue, hon member.


MR V C XABA: Mr Speaker, if members have no case to argue they must shut up. They must not come here and state information that is a half truth.


AN HON MEMBER: INTERJECTION.


MR V C XABA: I do not want to take all your time, Mr Speaker. I wish to thank the Minister for the support I got from him since the beginning of this year. I would not want to forget the
assistance that I also received from Mr S D Shabalala, the Head of Department, and his officials. We would not be where we are if it was not for the support that this gentlemen rendered to the
Finance Portfolio Committee.


Of course I will not forget to thank the hon Mr Ngidi for being chaotic. And of course I had great co-operation, which I admire very much, from all hon members including Mr Krog. He supported
this report. I hope that as an honourable man he will not backtrack on his words.


Colleagues, thank you very much for the support you have given me. I now move that both the reports, the Midyear Budget Review Report and the Report on the KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments
Estimate Bill be voted on. Thank you very much.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. In terms of Rule 106(1) I will allow hon member Mr Ngidi to make his explanation. Thank you. For three minutes.
MR S B NGIDI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will not use up the whole of your three minutes. When we discussed Health, one of the suggestions I made was to include in the report the following:


         The committee wishes to register its concern over the over expenditure in this Department.


What happened next was that the Chair decided summarily that he was going to remove a chapter which dealt with Health, and that chapter actually says that the Finance Portfolio Committee
                                                                                              4084


understands the over expenditure in the Department of Health. So we quarrelled quite a lot with regard to this. And what I am simply explaining is that particular meeting was conducted in such
a manner that it did not allow for input from some of us who are full members of that committee.


When he comes here he sarcastically says, "I am a lawyer who deals with KFC chickens and so on." It is this kind of arrogance which always permeates in these discussions, instead of being
factual and say, "Look, this is what is actually happening."


I am trying to put across these matters as simply and as straightforward and as a matter of fact as I possibly can. What do you get in response? Sarcasm. What do you get in response?
Looking down upon us. What do you get in response? Simply ignoring. This is the type of thing which is actually happening. Such a kind of relationship does not bode well. I am very
disappointed Mr Speaker, in the Chair of Finance, for the manner in which he is behaving. I would have expected that from some of the people on that side of the House, but not from him.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order.


THE SPEAKER: What is your point of order?


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): My point of order is on Rule 97. The explanation by the hon Mr Ngidi as to what happened in the Finance Portfolio Committee is actually deliberately
misleading the House. The facts are clear ...


THE SPEAKER: Again, hon member, I will request that if that is the case, please put it in writing.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Thank you. I will do so.


THE SPEAKER: Thank you. I will now allow the hon Minister Miller. You have 20 minutes, hon Minister.


MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance): Mr Speaker, thank you for telling me about the 20 minutes. I observe simply that is what this Legislature decided to give me so if there are members
who feel affronted because I do not deal with anything ...


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): My apologies to the hon MEC. I have done this to him before.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order!


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): But we have not adopted the two Reports and that should happen before the MEC responds because he will then put the Bill. But prior to that we have to
adopt the Reports. That is how it is on the speaker's list as well.
                                                                                                   4085




THE SPEAKER: Okay, sure. Thank you. Thank you for that correction.


MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance): On a point of order, sir. It therefore creates a situation where I as Minister may not comment on the content of the Reports. If that is the wish of the
House, well that is fine.


THE SPEAKER: I thought that what is going to happen is that we allow you to reply, then we adopt the Report, and then the Bill. So I will allow the Minister to respond, thereafter we will adopt
the Report. Thank you. Continue hon Minister.


MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will try and be as quick as possible. I simply was observing that I have been given 20 minutes and in a debate of this kind
that will make it impossible for me to deal with everything that members raised.


I also observe that the Chairman of the committee got 30 minutes and there were other members that got very nearly 20 minutes. But if that is the wish of the House, so be it.


On the basis of last in first out, while it is fresh on my memory, I just want to comment for the information of the Chairman of the committee, Mr Xaba, that the issue of rank and leg promotions,
although the misdemeanour occurred in 2001/2002, it in fact is being carried over a period of three years. In fact a large portion of the R490 million projected over spending of Health in this year
is due to the carry forward effect of rank and leg promotions. So it is very alive still right now; it is not confined to 2001/2002. I hope that is just of interest to the hon Chairman.


Mr Speaker, I have indicated that I will not be able to deal with all members, but I do just want to point out to all those members that were making a meal of the projected over expenditure
situation of 2,068, that in actual fact the reality that we face as we stand in this House on 5 December is that a very considerable portion, very nearly 50% of that, is addressed by this very
adjustment budget that we are debating and therefore the so-called crisis that we are faced with has been halved by the actions brought about by the adjustment budget. We certainly have a
situation now which should be very, very much more manageable.


I also just want to say to the hon Chief Whip of the ANC, it is a little bit disingenuous to state that the committee drew to my attention the content of the Constitution, when I in fact tabled the
document here, drawing to the committee's attention what the Constitution said. But nonetheless, if they want to claim credit for it in that false way they are entitled to do so. [LAUGHTER]


Generally speaking, and I will handle it here, that for the Department of Welfare to be labelled firstly as the transgressor, as if it were the only one, and secondly to be labelled as a reckless
spender and all the other quite vicious adjectives that were used to describe them by members later in the debate, it is strictly speaking not fair and not just.


The fact of the matter is that the rules that apply to Welfare apply to any other Department who also overspends, whatever the reasons might be. And when we talk about underfunding, there
can be no doubt that all the departments within our social sector find themselves in an underfunded situation. It is exacerbated of course by the need to meet the obligations in terms of the
Social Assistance Act, but it is also exacerbated by the need to meet a whole lot of obligations in terms of free medical care, in terms of the rollout and the provision of medicines and hospital
                                                                                                   4086


care. It is exacerbated by the need to provide Education. All these things I think rank pari passu in a situation like this. It is unfortunate when we are selective in our criticism because it suits a
political point of view as we go towards an election.


I want to deal specifically with the statement that the Legislature is underfunded and the instruction contained in the reports that the Legislature must have this underfunding remedied in the
coming budget. Without revealing what the coming budget is going to do, is that the Legislature is going to be faced with quite a moral dilemma when it comes, because if it is going to say that
it is the only department within the budget that has to get its requirements met in full, while all other departments have to share their contribution to the fact that all departments are underfunded,
then we are going to have a lot of fun. Nonetheless I will leave that to the Legislature in 2004 to deal with.


There is a common misconception, Mr Speaker, that projected expenditure six months into the year already constitutes financial misconduct and already constitutes an allegation which must be
investigated and in fact already constitutes, if I can put it, a prima facie case of financial misconduct.


There are several Resolutions in the report that purport to put that point of view forward. All I want to say is that a careful study of the Public Service Act and a careful study and reading of the
PFMA will show that an accounting officer has the capacity to fund overspending in certain programmes by virement and savings from other programmes. And until an accounting officer has
had the opportunity to do that, and he has until 31 March in the financial year, there can be no allegation that stands that a financial misconduct has been committed.


In fact for a charge of financial misconduct to stand, it would only pass muster if it was a charge based on figures that had actually been audited. So that would take us into the first three months
of the following financial year before such information could be used as the basis for a firm charge against an accounting officer.


Let me just say in the case of the Royal Household, since it was brought up, we have a situation where, subsequent to the producing of this particular document, preliminary investigations
indicate that savings had been found. The over expenditure in certain programmes will be met by savings from other programmes and it is highly unlikely that by the end of the year we are
going to have any basis for any charge of financial misconduct in that particular Department. But be that as it may, we will know only at the end of the financial year whether there is or not.


There has been a lot of talk about Amafa. The Report which we have before us today which is going to be put to this House, deals with Amafa in three and a half pages. If you read those three
and a half pages, it is essentially a narrative to justify why Amafa should not be given any more money. But I am very grateful indeed for that majority in the committee that in fact ended up
making the money requested available for Amafa.


I want to state quite clearly, specifically for the benefit of the hon Mrs Scott, that Amafa at no stage came round the corner direct to Treasury. In fact Amafa had no direct contact with Treasury.
The Treasury Minister was approached by the incumbent Minister in charge of Amafa, to talk about Amafa problems in fact.


Those discussions also included the hon Premier who at that stage had made the announcement that in the following financial year Amafa was going to serve as a subsection of the Office of
the Premier. So everything was legitimate. All this attempt to suggest that there was something underhand and improper about the Amafa approach was unjustified - there was a budget
suggested of R17 million. We dealt with it and any argument that says there was no motivation, it was all hidden away and everything like that, is as false as it would be to say that the sun will
                                                                                                 4087


not rise tomorrow. So let us leave it at that.


MRS B SCOTT: Mr Speaker.


THE SPEAKER: Hon member, you have got a point of order?


MRS B SCOTT: Yes, I am standing up in terms of Rule 106 that a material part of my address is being misquoted or misunderstood and I request that I be given a three minute explanation.


THE SPEAKER: You finish your speech, hon Minister.


MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance): Mr Speaker, given all the interaction over the last few days, over the last few weeks and everything, I clearly do not misunderstand the hon
Mrs Scott's attitude towards Amafa. That is as clear as a pikestaff, let me tell you.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance): Rather than deal with the merits as to whether Amafa needed some money in order to do its job properly, the whole debate on Amafa is coloured by a
vicious, vitriolic vendetta against that organisation. That is what it is all about. But we leave it at that. Posterity will deal with whether Amafa is to survive or not. It will not be in my hands. I
have simply done my best as the Minister to make sure that a creature created by the statute of this House can in fact survive to do the job which we want it to do.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance): The hon Mrs Thakur-Rajbansi creates an opportunity for us just to comment a little bit on the financial management of this Legislature to which we all
belong.


She raised the issue and was talking about the need for departments to honour the prescripts of the PFMA. In one of the reports here today there are several paragraphs on the issues
surrounding the Legislature as such. I want to repeat in this House what my Head of Department and I said to the committee when we said, "If the Legislature itself were to appear before the
Finance Committee of the Legislature, God help the Legislature." If the same rules were applied to criticism of the Legislature itself as the committee criticises other departments, we said,
Heaven help the Legislature."


I just want to make a plea, there are situations at the moment that are highlighted there, but there are situations too which are not dealt with. For example, by what authority can State property
be sold to private individuals without going through the proper State disposal prescripts? By what authority can State property be sold by private treaty to private individuals on the never-never
pay system.
                                                                                                 4088




I am aware of the fact and the Auditor-General is going to have to do something about this, that State property is sold by public auction, and a public auction is paid by cash immediately. These
are some of the things which I am asking my colleagues in the Legislature. As they are so busy pulling the motes out of our eyes, to pull the mote out of their own eye and see what is going on
in their own financial arrangements first. Then we will not feel so hard done by if we are criticised by a squeaky clean organisation. It would help a lot for us to understand that situation.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance): I could not help thinking when the hon Mr Krog was speaking that the only thing he left out was that he had not been to see the pig farms with no pigs
and the chicken farms with no chickens, but be that as it may.


I just want to emphasise, Mr Speaker, that attention has been drawn to certain of the Resolutions in the report on the midyear expenditure reviews and attention has been specifically drawn to
three particular Resolutions. Those three particular Resolutions happen to include instructions to the Treasury to do certain things.


I have already intimated that there are different categories and classes of allegation and you have got to wait for an allegation to be substantive before you can take action in terms of that
allegation. You cannot simply make allegations that are not founded, either in fact or in law, and expect them to be represented. We will, however report back, as is required, by 31 January on
those issues and we will deal more substantially with them then, given the limited time that is available.


Mr Speaker, in the final three minutes that is left to me, let me use this opportunity, as somebody who has been through the mill of this Legislature probably more than any other member of the
Executive in the present year, that I nonetheless bear no ill will to the members and as we enter the season of goodwill, I wish all members a blessed and prosperous Christmas and New Year,
and may they come back refreshed in the New Year and perhaps with a little less anger in their hearts about everything that goes on.


It would help us a little bit. I want to just say, and I say this in a perfectly jocular and understanding way, those of you who know English folklore will know about the three witches of Eastwick:
Bimpy, Bumpy and Big One. Well, thank heavens only Bimpy and Bumpy were here today, but if Big One had been here today as well and we had been yelled at by all three, it would have
really been a miserable day. [LAUGHTER]


We got it in the neck from Bimpy and Bumpy and they can choose who is Bimpy and who is Bumpy, but we all know who is Big One. [LAUGHTER] Thank you very much indeed.


MR A RAJBANSI: On a point of order.


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Rajbansi.


MR A RAJBANSI: Is it parliamentary to describe an honourable absent member as Bumpy?
                                                                                               4089




THE SPEAKER: Continue, hon member.


MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance): No, no, Mr Speaker, Bumpy is here. It is Big One that is missing. [LAUGHTER]


It is then my pleasure in closing to at least have formally moved the adoption of the KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation Bill 2003.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: We will first deal with the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Legislature Finance Portfolio Committee 2003 Midyear Expenditure Review hearings into various votes. I would like to hear
from the House whether they adopt that Report ...


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Just a point of order before you do that, because once we have adopted the Report, I think the debate will be concluded. I think the hon Mrs Scott has
requested in terms of 106(1) to do an explanation, and perhaps now is the opportune moment.


THE SPEAKER: To assist, hon member, you must look at Rule 106(4)(c). I will give the hon member the opportunity once I have dealt with the adoption of the report. Thank you.


At the moment we are dealing with the adoption of the report. I put the Report to the House.


KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE FINANCE PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE 2003 MIDYEAR EXPENDITURE REVIEW REPORT - ADOPTED


THE SPEAKER: Then the next one is Report KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Legislature Finance Portfolio Committee Report on KwaZulu-Natal Adjustment Appropriation 2003/2004 Bill.


PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE REPORT ON THE KWAZULU-NATAL
ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION 2003/2004 BILL - ADOPTED


THE SPEAKER: We will then look at the Bill.



  VOTE                 DEPARTMENT                    ADJUSTED

                                                     AMOUNT


  1         THE OFFICE OF THE PREMIER            R       3 668 000   Passed
                                                                      4090



 VOTE             DEPARTMENT                ADJUSTED

                                            AMOUNT


2       PROVINCIAL PARLIAMENT           R       2 673 000    Passed




3       AGRICULTURE AND ENVIRONMENTAL   R      14 282 000    Passed

        AFFAIRS


4       ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND        R       1 406 000    Passed

        TOURISM


5       EDUCATION AND CULTURE           R      67 629 000    Passed


6       PROVINCIAL TREASURY             R    (209 702 000)   Passed


7       HEALTH                          R     201 439 000    Passed


8       HOUSING                         R     139 647 000    Passed


9       SAFETY AND SECURITY             R       1 210 000    Passed


10      THE ROYAL HOUSEHOLD             R       5 712 000    Passed


11      TRADITIONAL AND LOCAL           R      54 225 000    Passed

        GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS


12      TRANSPORT                       R       5 963 000    Passed


13      SOCIAL WELFARE AND POPULATION   R     600 204 000    Passed

        DEVELOPMENT


14      WORKS                           R       1 075 000    Passed




15      PROMOTING THE RECONSTRUCTION    R      40 784 000    Passed

        AND DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMME
                                                                                                 4091


THE SPEAKER: The total amount to be voted for is R930 215 000. Agreed?
I then put the Bill before the House.


THE KWAZULU-NATAL ADJUSTMENT APPROPRIATION BILL, 2003 - PASSED


THE SPEAKER: I will request the Secretary to read the Bill.


THE SECRETARY: KwaZulu-Natal Adjustment Appropriation Act of 2003.


THE SPEAKER: Then I will give the hon member Mrs Scott three minutes to explain in terms of 106(1).


MRS B SCOTT: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Just to correct the misquote of my speech by the hon MEC, the Department of Education together with Amafa may well have presented a request of
additional funding of R17 million to Treasury, but that is not what I said. I said that at no time did Treasury, Amafa or the Department of Education and Culture bring their request for additional
funding to the Finance Portfolio Committee.


So I stand that it is not us that is false; it is the hon MEC, but it is understandable, given that the hon MEC owes his current position in the IFP to the Chair of Amafa, who paid his salary and got
him onto the IFP list in 1994.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MRS B SCOTT: Furthermore there is a misrepresentation with respect to the memorandum that was referred to by the hon MEC. The hon MEC only tabled the memorandum in the portfolio
committee a day after these issues had been brought to the attention ...


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! There is a point of order. Hon Minister of Finance, what is your point of order?


MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance): Sir, I rise on the Rule of misleading the House. This is abuse of this Rule.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): You cannot make a point ...


MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance): This is making a new speech. This is not explaining anything that I might have misunderstood.


THE SPEAKER: Again I will request that the hon Minister puts that in writing in order for me to make a proper ruling. Thank you.
                                                                                             4092




MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker.


THE SPEAKER: But there is no point of order on a point of order.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): No, it is not on a point of order. Mine is an independent point of order.


THE SPEAKER: Let me finish with this one first.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): It is not on a point of order. It is an independent point of order.


THE SPEAKER: Okay, you take your seat. I will come back to you, hon member.


MRS B SCOTT: Can I continue?


THE SPEAKER: Again I will request that this Rule 106(1), it says that a member must not be permitted to introduce any new matter. Well, I will request that the member focuses on the
explanation. Thank you. Before that there is a point of order from the hon Mrs Cronje.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, I am just pointing out in terms of Rule 108(3) -


         A point of order may not be raised on a point of order.


An explanation is a point of order. When I was giving my explanation, the hon Mrs Shandu rose on a point of order, which was wrong.


When Mrs Scott is now giving her explanation, the hon MEC for Finance rose on a point of order. That is in violation of Rule 108(3). So I am just pointing this out to you, Mr Speaker, because
this is becoming quite a tendency in this House.


THE SPEAKER: Thank you. You finish your speech, hon member Mrs Scott.


MRS B SCOTT: The other misrepresentation is the fact that the hon MEC notified us in terms of a memorandum about spending money within the confines of your budget in terms of the
Constitution, as well as the PFMA. I just wanted to remind the hon MEC that we brought this to his attention the day before. The memorandum was tabled in the committee the next day. So
we actually pointed it out to him because he argued with us about which Act had precedence, and we pointed out in the PFMA which one did. Thank you.
                                                                                             4093




HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: So we are through with the matter. Does the hon Minister want to raise a point of order?


MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance): Yes, sir.


THE SPEAKER: Okay, what is your point of order, hon Minister?


MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance): I rise on 106(2) in the general case and would draw your attention, Mr Speaker, to the fact that a member must confine himself or herself strictly to the
vindication of his or her own conduct. Rising under 106 explanations should, I respectfully suggest, not be an opportunity to raise a whole lot of extraneous issues and take the last chance to
insult a member of this House.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: Again, hon Minister, the Rule is quite clear here that upon receipt of a brief written request. So unfortunately the Minister has not done so. Thank you. We move to item 8.4.




8.4      MOTION: DESIGNATE MEMBERS FOR LIAISON


         Noting the need for liaison between the Monarch, the Legislature and the Cabinet;


         This House resolves to:


         -        designate not more than two members as Parliamentary Councillors to His Majesty, charged with facilitating communication between this House, Cabinet and
                  the King, with effect from 16 April 2003; and


         -        make immediate representation to the Commission for the Remuneration of Public Representatives and the President of the Republic of South Africa for this
                  position to be recognised in the grading structure of members of the Provincial Legislature.


THE SPEAKER: To start the debate I will call upon hon member Mr Mchunu. You have 11 minutes.
                                                                                                  4094




MR E S MCHUNU: Mr Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to move this Resolution to the motion I put forward the other day. The motion reads as follows:


         That this House resolves:


         to designate no more than two members as Parliamentary Councillors to His Majesty, charged with facilitating communication between this House, Cabinet and the King with effect
         from 16 April 2003.


Mr Speaker, I would like to move a small amendment in terms of Rule 134(a) to this motion as follows: that this condition stands until the results of the 2004 general elections - in other words
that we have this arrangement from 16 April 2003 until the results of the 2004 general elections whereupon a new order can be brought to the fore.


I would like to further amend, that in this regard, nominate the two gentlemen for these positions, as highlighted above, nominate the hon C J Mtetwa and Prof L G B Ndabandaba. Those are
the amendments that I want to put forward in terms of Rule 134(a).


Mr Speaker, the Legislature is a very important institution in this Province, as all of us are aware. There are many ways that the Legislature communicates with the public in general and with
various stakeholders in specific terms. But of course there is one weakness which has been standing out all the time and that is the communication between this Legislature, the Cabinet of this
Legislature and the Royal Household. It has always been an area of weakness. It could be as a result of the absence of a Provincial Constitution or any other reason. But the fact of the matter
is that there is a weakness in terms of the way we communicate with His Majesty the King and the whole Royal Household.


We are therefore, as the ANC, keen on creating a modern but very effective manner of communication and liaison with the Royal Household. We just want to emphasise one point about this
mechanism that it happens on a neutral basis. We want it to be devoid of any party political bias and just be a mechanism through which we communicate with the Royal Household. In other
words in a manner that is free of any party political agendas.


Mr Speaker, we will all remember that a lot has been done in terms of bringing dignity to the Royal Household and I think a lot has been achieved. Therefore we would want to keep things that
way. We do not want to revert back to the old situation.


We believe that in order to achieve this communication and dignity, we need to appoint these two councillors. These Parliamentary Councillors should be nominated by the ANC as well as the
IFP, and that this matter be resolved and finalised today.


As I indicated in the motion, these positions will be pegged at the level of the Speaker, but, as I indicated above, only until the general elections next year.


We will need as a necessity to make immediate representations to the Commission for the Remuneration of Public Representatives and the President of the Republic of South Africa for this
                                                                                                 4095


position to be recognised in the grading structure of members of the Provincial Legislature and in accordance with the recommendations that I have made.


We believe that once we have these two councillors in place, this mechanism will go a long way in enabling us as this House, to handle with dignity all matters of the Royal Household, as
opposed to the present token respect which is devoid of any such practice.


Mr Speaker, you will remember that a lot of incidents have in the past affected what we have always intended to do with respect to the dignity of His Majesty the King and in terms of how we
relate to that institution. None of these incidents in reality have made us better people and a better Legislature.


Therefore this proposal is designed to enable us to handle all these matters of the Royal Household with exceptional dignity so that what we preach becomes what we actually practice.


Without wasting much of your time, hon Speaker and the House, I would want to put this motion forward for consideration by the House. Thank you.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. Hon member R Keys to deliberate for four minutes.


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Thank you, Madam Speaker. The DA made it very clear during the last debate that we had, that we do not support this motion.


Madam Speaker, Parliamentary Councillors, as political appointees, in the first instance are answerable to their respective party political bosses. Secondly, they are loyal to their parties.
Thirdly, they are directed by their constituencies.


To have the institution of Parliamentary Councillors established in this House, the Rules have to be changed. But clearly the ANC and the Rules Committee did not meet and even if it did, it
would not get the two-thirds majority. So therefore we have this Resolution before the House.


I have listened with interest to the hon Mchunu and the explanation of the role of the Parliamentary Councillors. He did not convince me that a designation of responsibilities has been worked
out. He does not convince me that the communication channels between the Royal Household, Parliament and the Executive have been determined. He does not convince me about the line
of authority. In that sense it seems to be a hastily concocted proposal, if these two members are elected, without these two members knowing what their functions, roles and responsibilities are.


There is a broad statement to say, it is to communicate. But there is nothing to say what the position of these people is, and what authority, and how they will link in with this Legislature, with the
Executive, and with the Royal Household.


Madam Speaker, we cannot at all compare the Parliamentary Councillors in this House as proposed by the hon Mchunu with that of the Parliamentary Councillors at the National Assembly. A
                                                                                                4096


totally different role is played by those members in the National Assembly.


With regard to the DA's position on this, yes, we would look at a liaison between the Royal Household and this Legislature. But we would like to see that the position is within the Constitution of
this Province, that it becomes a body that is not affiliated or aligned to a political party to whom that person has to answer. It has to be an independent person and therefore we cannot support
what is being proposed today.


We are opposed further to the creation of bureaucracies because if these two hon members are appointed by the House today, they will require a bureaucracy to assist them in a job that they
do not know what it is about. That is the problem.


We have to make it very clear that we avoid abusing taxpayers' money by creating bureaucracies upon bureaucracies upon bureaucracies. This, I believe, needs to be looked at more
thoroughly and a proposal be encompassed in the Provincial Constitution once that is able to be put together and passed by this House.


We therefore, Madam Speaker, would like to make it very clear that the DA is opposed to the motion before the House and that we consider it to be ill founded in the sense that not enough work
has been done to investigate the role, functions and duties of these persons. I thank you.


THE ACTING SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Mr Keys. I shall now call upon the hon member Mr V A Volker to deliberate for three minutes.


MR V A VOLKER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The proposal to appoint a so-called "Ambassador Extraordinary" to the Zulu Royal Court was never mooted or considered until relatively
recently. I am no sangoma to determine with any emotive certainty what gave rise to the Premier's proposal originally. But more than that, such proposed appointee is to operate under the
direct instruction and control of the Premier, presumably on the basis of party political monopolism.


Unfortunately there is so much mutual distrust between the IFP and the ANC in this House that there is an understandable demand that both these parties should respectively nominate a
person to be involved in the liaison with the Zulu Monarch. It reminds me of the mutual distrust of the security guards who had to guard the Berlin Wall.


Madam Speaker, in response to the hon member Mr Radley Keys, if he rejects the proposal that is put forward in this motion, does he also reject the appointment by the Premier? In other
words is he of the opinion that there is no need whatsoever for such an appointment?


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR V A VOLKER: I am personally of the opinion that for almost ten years there was no need for such an appointment. There was no need recognised by the Premier or the Cabinet. I believe
that to make such appointments at the level of remuneration of an MEC is totally exorbitant. There is no need for such.
                                                                                               4097


On behalf of our party, we can state quite categorically that we are opposed to the principle that is now being introduced. It would appear that this is merely to solve a dilemma that the Premier
had when he had to appoint two additional members of the ANC to his Cabinet. He had to get rid of one of his Cabinet Ministers and now he wants to appoint a royal ambassador at the level of
an MEC. I think this is political chicanery. Thank you.


THE SPEAKER: The next member is hon member, Mr Rajbansi. You have three minutes.


MR A RAJBANSI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. In response to what the hon Radley Keys stated, when you appoint an MEC, the MEC is not answerable to his party boss. He lifts himself above
party politics. And when you are going to consider these appointments they are going to lift themselves above party politics. It is important that in this Province two political parties are
guaranteed a minimum of a million voters. Therefore both of them should play a role.


But of course the DA has become free riders in a tow truck. [LAUGHTER] Since December last year they took that ride in a tow truck and they towed around the Province. Because the
question was raised by Mr Volker that it is going to be a Cabinet appointment, you are prepared to separate. So there is no principle, no idea of amendment of the Constitution.


The Minority Front is thinking about that level and I believe that we should let the hon President decide about the level. This is an interim measure until the election. The idea is good. The MF
is having a deep thought just before the vote where we are going to vote. Thank you.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: The next member is hon member Mr Slabbert. You have two minutes to deliberate.


MR J H SLABBERT: Mr Speaker, thank you. I planned not to take part in this debate but there are things happening now that I think I must just add my voice to. After I listened to the very
clear and simple manner in which it was set out by the hon Mr Mchunu, I think I must just stand up and say that I support his motion.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! The next member is hon member Minister Singh. You have 10 minutes, hon Minister.


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I want to start with the last hon member and say I am rather surprised at this change in heart
because we had a discussion earlier on where he did indicate to me that he will not participate in the debate because he does not understand.


AN HON MEMBER: INTERJECTION.
                                                                                               4098


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! Hon member Mr Slabbert, do you have a point of order?


MR J H SLABBERT: Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Apparently the Minister does not know about democracy.


THE SPEAKER: That is not a point of order, hon member. Continue, hon Minister.


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. They say a week is a long time in politics. 30 minutes is a long time in politics. [LAUGHTER] I hope
the hon member remembers that. So if he has changed his mind within 30 minutes, well, we have these things happening. I suppose it is part of democracy. We will leave it at that.


Mr Speaker, I am also pleased with the position that the NNP has taken on this because they say they will object to the motion before the House. Hon Mr Volker has stated his position quite
clearly.


However, I would like to appeal to hon Mr Volker, do not be one-sided when you talk about political chicanery. When you indicated that the hon Premier wanted to get out of a particular
dilemma, the amendment to the motion here today indicates that the ANC wants one of their members to be appointed here. So if you talk about political chicanery, let us be fair. When you
point one finger at someone, three fingers point back at you.


However, Mr Speaker, let me deal with the motion before us. We had a long debate on this motion. There was a time when we on this side of the House would have won the vote. And, very
cleverly, using the Rules of this House, which everybody is entitled to do, the decision on the vote was postponed.


This hon House on 29 September resolved that the Rules Committee should be instructed to formulate a Rule which provides for the designation of not more than two members as
Parliamentary Councillors to His Majesty, charged with facilitating communication between this House, Cabinet and the King; to make representation to the Commission for the Remuneration of
Public Representatives; and then to report back at the September 2003 sitting. This House took this decision.


Now before hon members on that side of the House would say, "Well, I know this hon member here who is standing is going to use Rule 133 and say there was a motion debated on in this
House and discussed and you cannot raise the same motion." I am not going to use Rule 133 because that was a different sitting and this is a different sitting.


But Mr Speaker, the spirit of the Rules must be maintained. We had a decision of this House. Nothing has happened. Why did the Rules Committee not sit? And before hon members on that
side of the House tell me that the hon Mr Speaker is the Chairman of that Rules Committee, there have been occasions in this hon House when ordinary members have asked the Chairman of
a committee to convene a meeting. Has that happened? Has that happened, from members on that side of the House?


Very recently the hon Mr Mthimkhulu, the hon Mr Volker, the hon Mr Slabbert, wrote to the hon Mr Ngidi in Education saying, "We want an urgent meeting on the issue of non-payment of
teachers. It was respected by the Chairperson of the committee. He convened that meeting. So let us not sit here in silence and say that we did not have the opportunity or you on that side of
                                                                                                4099


the House, the ANC, did not have the opportunity to write to the hon Speaker and say, "Why are you not convening this meeting? There is an injunction of this hon House, and we call it
honourable because it is a Resolution of this House which was just carried on that day. Why did we not act on the Resolution of this particular House?


What this amounts to, Mr Speaker, what we see today is a case of political bankruptcy. When you cannot use one means, you want to use another means. We will come here next week and
try and do something else. Let us be consistent. Let us respect the Resolutions of this House.


Just as much as we had a debate on the adjustments estimates previously and we said that this is a Resolution of the Finance Committee, MECs are required to do certain things by a certain
date, which they will have to do, otherwise there will be action taken against them. Let us be consistent in the way we deal with issues of this particular House. If hon members want this
Resolution, it can be circulated. But why was there no implementation of a Resolution of this House? That is the basic question.


Mr Speaker, I will not go into the details of whether we need a parliamentary councillor or not. We from this side of the House, particularly the IFP, said, "Yes, there is need for communication
with His Majesty." But the debate the last time was about the procedure. How do we go about doing that? We suggested Legislation. We were out-voted and we accept that. But we still
maintain even today that Legislation should be the route and not using the Rules of the House or a motion of the House. Legislation should be the route we take and we still believe that it is the
best route with which we can achieve the objective of ensuring that there is communication between this Legislature, our Executive and His Majesty the King.


AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): With three months to go, Mr Speaker, how much can be done? We are therefore saying, if you want to wait till after the elections,
consider the Legislation that was prepared by the Office of the Premier. Let us consider that after the elections.


We spoke just now about underfunding. We spoke just now about the pressures on the Legislature and on Parliament about funding. And here you want to go and make provision for two posts
at these salaries. Where are we going to get the money from? Has it been considered in the adjustment estimates? Has that kind of proposal been made? So what kind of a motion will we
actually be passing at the end of the day, Mr Speaker? Can this motion really be implemented and taken to its fullest.


Mr Speaker, we understand that there have been discussions, certain political discussions. But these discussions over the last 24 hours or 36 hours have been unmandated from our side and
our political party. So if anybody from this side of the House had entered into discussions, it was on the basis of an unmandated position.


THE SPEAKER: Order, hon Minister. There is a point of order. Hon Mr Rajbansi?


MR A RAJBANSI: Will the hon MEC take a question?


THE SPEAKER: Are you prepared, hon Minister, to take a question?
                                                                                                   4100




MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): No, I am not, Mr Speaker, not during this debate here.


THE SPEAKER: Continue, hon member.


MR A RAJBANSI: INTERJECTION.


THE SPEAKER: Order, Mr Rajbansi. Continue, hon Minister.


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): Mr Speaker, we will not allow ourselves on this side of the House, despite the false majority that has been created in this House, through
obnoxious Legislation that we objected to vehemently. I think the majority of people in this Province and this country will demonstrate their opposition to the floor crossing legislation come the
2004 election. The people will talk, Mr Speaker, in 2004. We will not allow ourselves on this side of the House to become surrogate partners of anybody. We have our own independent
thinking. We will not be surrogates to any political party, despite the fact that we may lose this vote, but on a matter of ...


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): Despite the fact that we may lose this vote today, we stand on a matter of principle.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


MR N SINGH: (Minister of Education and Culture): We will not be the surrogate partners. Many promises have been made by the ANC before to the IFP and to the country at large, and I
can list a litany of them where we are still having problems 10 years after democracy. We are still having problems with regard to the role of His Majesty the King. We are still having a problem
with regard to traditional leaders and their role. We are still having problems with so many broken promises, even by the President of this country as leader of the ANC, where he did not
actually follow what he was supposed to say to the people of this country.


Mr Speaker, we will not be fooled any longer by those that are the majority in terms of numbers in this House. We will not be fooled by those that are in the majority in this country. We will
object to the amended motion and that will be our firm position because we do so, Mr Speaker, on a matter of principle. We have stated our position before and I re-iterate our position that we
will object. Procedures must be followed. Do not use this false majority to get what you want three months before an election. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! The next member to deliberate for five minutes is hon member Mr Mchunu. Thank you.
                                                                                                 4101




MR E S MCHUNU: Mr Speaker, thanks once more for this opportunity. Firstly ...


MR B H CELE: INTERJECTION.


THE SPEAKER: I can hear you, Mr Cele.


MR E S MCHUNU: I think we need to take this opportunity to thank everybody who has made a contribution to this small debate.


Just to re-iterate what the hon Mr Rajbansi said in relation to what Mr Keys said, we are talking about these being appointees of this House. If they were going to be appointees of these two
parties and would report to them, we would have gone to the ANC offices or the IFP offices and appointed these people. But we came to the House and we are saying this with honesty that
they will be appointees of this House.


I do not know about any concoction hon Mr Keys. I also do not know anything about this being a waste of money because they could end up doing a much more important job than perhaps
yourself. [LAUGHTER]


AN HON MEMBER: Hear! Hear!


MR E S MCHUNU: If there is any complaint about waste of money, I am sure you would have complained when your two members were appointed as MECs.


We noted the remarks by the hon member Mr Volker and he is entitled to those, but I noted that Mr Volker did not necessarily say he was opposed to the principle, but to the package. It is a
matter that can be taken care of.


Thanks, hon member Mr Rajbansi and Mr Slabbert. The hon Mr Singh does agree in principle that there is need for these councillors. He has a problem with the procedures and I think what is
important is the principle. The procedures are merely matters that we can attend to at a later stage. So I take pleasure that all of us agree on this particular matter.


May I take this opportunity and request that the motion be put before the House for voting? Thank you, Mr Speaker.


THE SPEAKER: Thank you. First of all we put the amendment before the House for adoption.


AMENDMENTS TO MOTION - AGREED TO
                                                                                                4102


THE SPEAKER: Then we move to the motion as amended. I put the motion as amended.


THE MOTION AS MOVED BY MR MCHUNU WITH AMENDMENTS - AGREED TO


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: Hon member, Inkosi Gumede.


INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Chief Whip): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise in terms of Rule 120. I would like to - ongasazi isingisi ngeke aze azi uma ngithi I rise up to isingisi leso, ongasazi akasazi
njalo. [who does not understand English will never understand if I say - I rise up to - that is English. He who does not understand, will never understand]. To ask for a division of the House
then, Mr Speaker.


THE SPEAKER: I would like to see whether there are any members supporting the demand for a division. Okay, fine. You may take your seats, hon members. Then I will request that the bell
be rung for three minutes.


A DIVISION IS CALLED


MR V A VOLKER: Mr Speaker, further to the matter which I have just discussed with you personally, I would now like to raise the matter formally. In voting on this matter, the motion mentions
two members by name as persons who are to be appointed to positions where they are to receive additional personal financial benefits. In terms of the Member's Code of Ethics I would seek
your ruling as to whether it is ethically correct for them to participate in the voting. It would make no difference to the outcome, because there is one on each side and if they abstained it would
not make a difference.


THE SPEAKER: I shall ask the members.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip): We are of the opinion that the members have been elected to represent the interests of the people and that they should not be deprived of their right to vote
but if both the nominated members voluntarily leave - I do not believe constitutionally you can force them to leave. Then the ANC would have no objection.


THE SPEAKER: IFP? Order! Order!


INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, the IFP would definitely have a problem if the members being voted for were expected to leave, because when we vote for our salaries as
members of this Legislature, we remain in the House. We do not leave. When we vote on the Premier's salary, he remains in the House. When we vote on the Ministers' salaries, they remain
in the House. So I do not see anything different here. So the IFP would have a problem with that. Thank you.
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THE SPEAKER: DA?


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Mr Speaker, we do not have a problem that the members remain.


THE SPEAKER: MF?


MR A RAJBANSI: Mr Speaker, you cannot deprive members of the vote. We have a convention. Besides the Premier's salary, when we elect the Premier we do not ask the candidate to
leave the Chamber. So that is the convention and we should follow it.


THE SPEAKER: PDP?


MR J H SLABBERT: Mr Speaker, I now have a problem. If the two members leave voluntarily, I have no problem. But how are you going to let them out? The doors are locked.
[LAUGHTER]


THE SPEAKER: Order! Order! I will therefore rule that both members participate in the vote. Thank you.


The results are - those members who support the motion as amended are 38, and those who are against are 29.


ON DIVISION THE AMENDED MOTION TO DESIGNATE MEMBERS FOR LIAISON - AGREED TO BY 38 FOR AND 29 AGAINST.


         Noting the need for liaison between the Monarch, the Legislature and the Cabinet;


         This House resolves to:


         -        designate not more than two members as Parliamentary Councillors to His Majesty, charged with facilitating communication between this House, Cabinet and the King, with
                  effect from 16 April 2003;
         -        that this condition stands until the results of the 2004 general elections;
         -        that in this regard nominate two gentlemen for these positions, as highlighted above - nominate the hon C J Mtetwa and Prof L G B Ndabandaba.
         -        make immediate representation to the Commission for the Remuneration of Public Representatives and the President of the Republic of South Africa for this position to be
                  recognised in the grading structure of members of the Provincial Legislature.
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THE SPEAKER: We have come to the end of today's order paper. Before we close I have been requested by the Chief Whips that I allow parties to convey their Christmas messages. I will
allow the hon Premier to do so. Thank you.


THE PREMIER: Somlomo, neNdlu yakho ehloniphekile sibonga lelithuba lokuba siphothule umsebenzi wonyaka. Sengathi uma siqala unyaka omusha besingaba sezingeni lokuhloniphana
kuleNdlu. Ukhisimusi omkhulu esingawufisela abanye awukho oyokwedlula ukukhombisa uthando nesisa kulabo abantula kakhulu, ikakhulukazi izintandane zengculazi, nalabo abaphila nalo
igciwane, nanokubahambela nokubapha izipho. Ngiyabonga.


TRANSLATION:        Mr Speaker, and your hon House we appreciate this opportunity to complete the year's work. I wish in the new year we can show respect to one another in this House.
There is no greater Christmas gift we can give, other than showing love and care to the poorest of the poor, particular Aids orphans and those living with its virus, and to visit them and also give
them gifts. Thank you. T/E


THE SPEAKER: Hon Minister of Transport?


MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): Thank you, Mr Speaker. It has been a difficult year. We have learnt a lot from it and I am sure it puts us in a better position next time around in
January to know that we can achieve a lot through co-operation and not confrontation.


We want to commit ourselves and it is the duty of all of us here to ensure that this House, particularly the members, all of us conduct ourselves in a manner that gives respect and enhances the
dignity of the House, and also the admiration of our people by putting forward those matters that are paramount to them, which is the fight against poverty.


We wish members as we start the year that we should bear in mind all the time that we are colleagues. We can wish to have our friends but we do not have friends, we have colleagues here
and it is the matter of how we conduct ourselves with our own colleagues. I think it is going to be quite a lesson for us to carry on, on the footing that you cannot wish anyone away here. Let us
therefore start the year and let it be the year in which the people of KwaZulu-Natal co-operate with each other to bring about a better life for all.


May all members, their families and their communities obey the rules of the road, drive safely and let us arrive alive. Thank you.


HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!


THE SPEAKER: DA. Mr Keys?


MR R E KEYS: (Chief Whip): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would like to extend to our coalition of change partners and to members on that side of the House, we might be political opponents but
we are all South Africans. As one South African to all members in this House, from our side in the DA and from the leader of the DA, Roger Burrows, we wish you a peaceful Christmas, a safe
Christmas and a blessed one. I echo the sentiments of the hon Minister of Transport, let us come back next year and we will build this Province. Let it be the winning Province that we know it
                                                                                                   4105


can be. Have a blessed Christmas.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: Hon Mr Volker?


MR V A VOLKER: Mr Speaker, having come to the end of this calendar year's parliamentary duties, I think it is incumbent on us to remember that we are entering a period of peace for all
believers. It is only fitting that we recognise that we have just celebrated Ramadan for our Muslim friends, and Diwali, the Festival of Lights for our Hindu colleagues. We are now entering the
period of Christmas which is the celebration of the birth of Christ and the celebration of peace. I am in fact, on behalf of our party, looking forward to the fact that hopefully there will be no calling
of any special sittings in this celebration of peace, because I cannot remember a single sitting of this House when the war of words has not broken out. But it was, I think, Winston Churchill who
said that jaw-jaw is better than war-war.


So I sincerely hope that all the members will use this opportunity to really enjoy the festival of religious peace that we are entering. I thank you, Mr Speaker.


THE SPEAKER: Hon member Mr Rajbansi.


MR A RAJBANSI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. On behalf of the Minority Front, I want to wish each one of you well during the festive season. We must not forget other members of the staff, our
cleaners, our ladies who provide us with tea and our security personnel. I have one Christmas wish that I would like for the Minister of Education and Culture to have a nice big Christmas party,
not at Mitchell Park, but at a venue which we could suggest to him. Thank you.


HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.


THE SPEAKER: Hon Mr Slabbert?


MR J H SLABBERT: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I have actually already conveyed my festive season wishes during my speech. I used that time so I will now use this time to finish my speech.
[LAUGHTER]


Mr Speaker, I just want to say to this House that we will serve -I hope next year we will do this - that we will serve the electorate better and that we will spend as much time and energy in working
for peace and development as we have spent on petty arguments and unnecessary drama. Thank you, sir. I wish you all well. Enjoy your holiday. Enjoy your stay with your families and come
back safely next year. Thank you.


THE SPEAKER: Thank you. Mhlawumbe nami ngingasho ngithi abaHoli sebekhulumile. Sengikhuluma lapha njengoba ngiphambi kwenu ngibonge ukuthi sisebenze kahle kube unyaka
                                                                                            4106


onzima kodwa sisebenze kahle siqede unyaka, siyabonga. Nginifisela uKhisimusi omuhle nonyaka omusha nihlale nemindeni yenu please. Niphile kamnandi size siphinde sibonane ngonyaka
ozayo siphilile, uNkulunkulu abenani nonke. Ngiyabonga.


TRANSLATION: Thank you. Perhaps I can say the leaders have spoken. I now speak as I stand in front of you, and I am thankful of the fact that we worked well this year, though it has been
a difficult year. Thank you. I wish all of you a merry Christmas and a happy New Year. Enjoy your time with your families until we meet next year. God be with you all. Thank you. T/E


I do not know whether the Premier has any announcements to make before I close.


THE PREMIER: Kukodwa nje okusilele ukuba sikhululwe kuleNdlu. [UHLEKO] [There is one thing outstanding and that is for us to be excused in this House]. [LAUGHTER]


THE SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Premier. Then the House adjourns sine die.


                        HOUSE ADJOURNED SINE DIE