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									Surviving The 704 Report: Answering Your FAQ's.
Call Two: Statewide IL Councils and DSUs
August 24, 2006

Presenters: Tom Kelley, Julia Sain, Felipe Lulli,
Sean Barrett, Pamela Hodge and Richard Petty.

SHARON: Good afternoon, everyone.
Welcome to today's webcast, presented by Julia Sain,
Felipe Lulli, Tom Kelly, Pamela Hodge and Sean Barrett
and this webcast is being presented to you by IL NET on
behalf of the Rehabilitation Services Administration.

My name is Sharon Finney, and I'm with ILRU, your
host for today's event. Before we get started, I want
to cover a couple of housekeeping issues. For those of
you on the webcast today, to submit your questions, you
can click on the E-mail or question link on the tab of
the bottom of your player screen or you can E-mail them
directly to And for those of you that
are participating via the teleconference, Dawn can
provide you with some instructions on how to get your
questions asked today. Dawn...

OPERATOR: Yes, ma'am, if you're on
the audio portion of today's call, you may press the 01
to ask your question. Your name will be announced and
at that time you may submit your question to the
speakers for today's call.

SHARON: Thank you, Dawn.
Additionally, if any of you should have technical
difficulties with the webcast, please feel free to give
us a call at (713)520-0232. Again, thank you all for
joining us today and now I'm happy to introduce Tim
Fuchs. Good afternoon, Tim.

TIM: Good afternoon to everyone else,
too. I'm glad that you all could join us for the
training on the 704 report today which is the second in
this series. Today call is for statewide independent
living councils completing part 1 of the 704 and I also
have to thank RSA's IL unit for making themselves avail
to plan and co-host this event and to Julia Sain who'll
be your primary trainer today. As I mentioned the
conference -- and Sharon mentioned, too -- the
conference is brought to you by IL NET, a collaborative
project of ILRU and NCIL. The project is funded by RSA
and if you're not familiar witness, it's a national
training project (Inaudible) which serves to strength
ten independent living movement by supporting centers
for independent living and state independent living
councils. IL NET offers workshops, teleconferences,
technical assistance, online courses, training
materials, publications and other resources on operating
CIL's and SILC. I also need to let you know if you have
not already received or downloaded today's materials,
you can get them at both ILRU's website and NCIL's
website and I'll give the web address most ease toy
relay and that html.

I'll remind you that your feedback on this call is
very important to us. We do review every evaluation
form that we receive and visiting that web address will
not only enable you to download the 704 report,
instructions and instruments for both parts 1 and 2 for
CILs and SILCs, will also give you the evaluation form.
I really hope and ask that you take just a few minutes
to fill that out so that we can see what you think of
our program.

And again, I'll remind you that that was 01 to ask
questions for the telephone participants and for our
webcast participants you may ask questions by E-mailing

Also need to take a moment to introduce our
trainers today. First of which is Julia Sain. Julia is
the executive direct of the Disability Rights and
Resources center in Charlotte, North Carolina. Also
with us is Tom Kelley, who is chief of the independent
living program at RSA. And from that same staff are
Felipe Lulli who is an IL program specialist there, Sean
Barrett of the same title and Pamela Hodge of the same
title. We're taping this call today and you'll be able
to access an archived copy at within one to two
weeks of today's call. So I want to go ahead and let us
get started but before we do, I'm going to turn it over
to Richard Petty for just a moment so he can talk about
future training plans.

RICHARD: Thank you, Tim. It's a
pleasure to be able to be here for all of us to be with
you today to do this important training. And we've had
questions about how training activities will be
continued and how there can be input into the process of
developing the 704 and modifying the 704. And those are
two important issues and issues that I wanted to address
as we begin our telecast.

There will be many questions today and if our
webcast today is like the webcast that we had yesterday,
it may not be possible to answer all questions. And if
that is the case, the questions that you -- that are
unanswered that you have made or have asked will be
placed on the bulletin board at the website.

There is a bulletin board especially set up for this 704
webcast. And you can get to that by going to the website, going to the members only web forums
and even though it says members only, that's not true
for this forum. After you've clicked on that, you will
then go to the 704 forum and you will find a place where
we will be posting questions from the webcast if it's
not possible to answer them and where you, yourself, may
post questions that you have if you feel that you need
additional clarification.

The staff of RSA will be responding to those
questions on the -- on the web board and as those
answers are completed, we will begin developing a
frequently asked questions document that will cover 704
questions and answers.

There will be additional training on The 704 Report
on a continual basis because the report is something
that we must do every year and it will be appropriate
that we -- that we have additional telephone conference
and other webcast trainings to orient additional --
additional staff to The 704 Report and also to orient
you about changes to the 704 report.

Another question that has been asked is how is
there input into the -- into the 704 report and one way
that input that is been received is through the NCIL
work group that has been addressing outcome measures.
RSA asked the work group to review some of the initial
questions that were used to develop later on the answers
that comprised the bulk of the training that is going on
today. And certainly I think that everyone involved,
RSA and the members of the work group, would agree that
there was spirited discussion and not always agreement
among everyone present, but a Colorado edge yale and
professional perspective where that kind of dialogue can
continue with NCIL and RSA.

ILRU's role is to implement through the IL NET the
decisions that RSA reaches about how the report should
be completed and that is what we are about today, is to
make sure that that perspective is clear to those of you
who are on this webcast. And the person who is going to
take the lead in that is someone who is very experienced
and has filled out many 704 reports and I commend her to
you. That's Julia Sain. Julia...

JULIA: Thank you, Richard. Good
afternoon or morning to all of you. I would like to say
that it's been my experience as you know that you can
put three SILC directors or folks who fill out these
Part 1 704's in a room and you're going to get three
different definitions on a lot of parts of the 704.

You're going to hear things like, "Well, nobody ever
told me I was doing it wrong before." or "This is how my
regional person told me to do it." Well, I can tell you
that one of the positives about consolidating those RSA
regional offices into the central office in D. C. is
that there will now be one answer to our questions. And
whether you agree or disagree with the answer, it is
"the truth." it's sort of like the Joe Friday report for
those of you old enough to know what I mean. It is just
the facts. And RSA will tell us what the answer is and
we will comply. You're going to hear some of those
today when you ask your questions later in the telecast
or post them to the forum. What you're going to be
getting back is "the answer" not one of the possible
answers, but it will be "the answer."

Now, why is the 704 changing this time? We
heard -- we started hearing over a year ago about March
or April even of last year something called the P-A-R-T
which stood for program assessment rating tool. And as
we began to hear about it, we began using it like the
four letter word that it is, but here is what happened:
The federal Office of Management and Budget reviewed all
the data from the 704's, both parts 1 and 2. Now, who
is the Office of Management and Budget? Well, they are
the folks up in D. C. who only believe numbers and what
numbers prove. They don't like stories. They don't
like anecdotes. They only like numbers.

And we all agree that it is difficult to prove our
successes with numbers. We talk about how many people
we serve. We can talk about how many units of something
we provide, but that still does not quantify actual
change taking place. And so the Office of Management
and Budget told RSA that from our report they could not
count change. They could not count something that had
been changed. And so they reported back that
independent living as a program, the results were not
demonstrated. The results of our work were not
demonstrated. And we all got really upset about that
because we see the results of our work every day. And
we feel like we demonstrate them very well, thank you.

But what that really meant in bureaucracy speak is
you got to show us numerical proof of change. And then
RSA was stuck because they needed to figure out how to
ask us, as centers and SILCs, for the information that
would make OMB happy and still keep our frustration
level low enough that we would not lose sight of what we
are about and what we do so well.

And so this is the document they came up with. It
is not perfect and it still might not make OMB happy but
we're getting a lot closer and it's showing OMB that
we're all collectively working on this effort to give
them what they need in order for them to see the change
that we create. This is a process.

This report -- the 704, part 1, is not so much
about the SILC or even the state as it is just about the
data, and if in the future it is determined that this
data still doesn't prove what we do, then we'll find
different ways to report the data.

Now, it has always been true that this report is
not going to judge or compare one state's -- one SILC to
another. We are just gathering collective information.
Now, as we go through this today, you're going to
see requests for information that you may not be able to
provide. I mean, maybe you haven't even collected this
data. Maybe your database isn't currently set up to
respond to it. Well, make your best effort, not just a
good-faith effort, but your best effort. Now, I'll show
you near the end of the training how you can put your
excuses and all that kind of stuff at the end; but this
is a transitional year, and we need the best data
possible this year to build on.

Now, we want to be able to get through the entire
reporting form and to answer all the questions that we
have time for, so I'm respectfully requesting that when
you have a question or a comment, that it be specific to
clarification and not to vent your frustration on having
to do it in the first place. Because we all share that,
and there is a place on the 704 where you can vent.

Isn't that cool? Most of my funding sources don't allow

Remember that this reporting instrument is a
compromise, which means nobody is really completely
happy with it, but fundamentally the information that
you're being asked is the same as it's always been.

We're just massaging it a little differently,
manipulating it and reporting it a little differently,
but it's coming from the same sources that we've always
used before.

It's important for you to focus on the SILC showing
the impact on your state's citizens with disabilities as
much as possible through the efforts of your SILC.

Now, one thing I want to make sure that we all
understand as we are going to go through this is the
difference between a 722 state and a 723 state.

Primarily, let me just say this: If you are a 723
state, you know it. And if you're a 722 state, you
probably have never even heard that or paid much
attention to it. So if you hear me say 722, 723, I
don't want you to get confused. So let me just tell you
the difference.
Let me start with 723 and do it backwards. A 723
state is a state where the DSU, the designated state
unit, gives grants or assistance contracts with Part C
to entities out there in the state and for the operation
of centers. So the state gets the money and the state
gives the money. The rest of us, which is the vast
majority, are 722. Now,s why does that matter? Well,
first of all, the submission is different. How to
submit it is different. When to submit it is different.

And there is one whole section in here that is only to
be filled out by 723. I cannot off the top of my head
quote what those are. There are just a few. Someone
from RSA may be able to rattle them off, but if you
don't know which you are, you're a 722. That would be
my rule of thumb.

Does anyone from RSA have a comment before we go
into Subpart I? Okay. Then let's move into Subpart I.
I hope you have the instrument in front of you.

Otherwise, this is going to be somewhat confusing. But
if you have the instrument in front of you, and we're
starting with Subpart I, the administrative data.

You've got the funds that come in and the way that they
are distributed. First part, you've seen this before,
Section A, the funds that come in. Now, filling this
out is not a big deal because if you have administered
funds and you have an accountant or someone who is able
to fill out budgets, you can do this. Where did your
money come from? Note already that we're referring to
723. Under item 1, the federal funds received, B, you
only fill that in which is the Title VII Part C funds if
you are a 723 state. So I will pick on North Carolina
since that's the one I know. We are not a 723. So in
that line there will be a zero. It's not how much Part
C money comes into the state, it's how much money comes
to the state which doesn't happen unless you're a 723.

As you go down to all of the other ways that a SILC
can have money, if it's a zero, if you don't have fees
for service or you don't have other resources like
foundations or something, be sure to put in a zero. If
you don't put in a zero, it's going to look like you
forgot to answer that question. So always -- through
this whole document -- remember to put in a zero if
that's pertinent. And then let me say something about
Pass Through funds. I kind of refer to these as Teflon
funds, that they can't stick to you. If you are
receiving funds that you can siphon off for operational
expenses, then that is not a pass through, that's
something that you get to keep for operational expenses;
but if you as either the SILC director or the SILC chair
or whoever is doing this, if you don't have the
flexibility to use that money, to siphon that money off
for something operational, if it has to go through you
because you are a conduit, then that's Pass Through
money and that goes right through you and on to
something else. Even though the instructions say if
you're looking at it, amount of other government funds,
actually it doesn't have to be government funds. It can
be anything. If you get foundation money and some of
that has to be you're only a conduit for that, rare as
that would be, you would have to put that on that line.

So that item 6 shows the net operational resources, the
money you did have purview over and the ability to use
for some type of operational expense.

Now, as we go to the next section, the next
section, Section B, C and D are all very connected and
I'm going to try to explain them so they make sense as
you flow. It's almost like a flow chart.

FELIPE: Julia, I'm sorry to
interrupt. This is Felipe Lulli. Can you hear me?


FELIPE: I just want to clarify
something that you mentioned regarding the funding
sources, funding resources. I don't want to give the
impression that this is money that a SILC receives
necessarily. This is the money -- in most cases it's
going to be money that the DSU receives and, you know,
it might also be money a SILC receives, but this is not
equivalent to the SILC budget. This is mostly money
available for the activities in the SPIL and that come
through in most cases the DSU. So I just wanted to
clarify that.
JULIA: Thank you very much for doing
that because our SILCs are so different across the
country, that there are situations, yes, the DSU could
receive some funds to provide some assistance with the
activities in the state plan. So thank you. That is
exactly right.

Okay, now Section B is specific to Part B funds.
You know when you see this list of activities, you can
probably quote them in your sleep because these are the
eight things that you can do or eight activities that
are allowed with Part B dollars. And you have addressed
these in your CIL's and so these are self-explanatory
and you've dealt with them a lot. But you have two
columns here. How much did you spend of this directly?

And how much of it did you spend through a grant or a
contract? And so when you look at the Part B funds, you
have in your state plan, you have your budget and so
forth and you list, for example, how much of the Part B
funds were provided resources for the SILC to carry out
its function? Did the SILC or the DSU write the Part B
check directly to that entity? Then that's going to go
in the first column. But if it was an RFP, which is a
request for proposal or an RFQ, request for quotations,
you would put it in the next column. It is still the
activities for the carrying out the SILC functions, it's
just how did you do it. And all the way down to the
eight waste you can use the SILC Part B money it's. Is
what did you spent directly, the second column is what
did you do by grant or contract? The second column is
going to get more scrutiny as we go through the
document. So you think about the second column, the
grants or contracts, the RFQ's, RFP's, whatever, and you
switch over the Section C, which is the next section.

And if you put these two pages side by side, on the left
column under name of grantee or contractor, you have the
names of all the entities that are represented in the
second column in Section B. If a grantee receives funds
for more than one use, then you list them separately.

So you have the name of the grantee or contractor which
you see it says based on the activities in Section B, so
you can just regurgitate that over to here. How much of
it was Part B, what was not Part B if that entity put in
some of its own money or whatever, and then the consumer
eligibility that was determined by the DSU and the CSR's
that were kept. All of this is going to report just on
those grantees. Those grantees and those contractors
and so at the bottom there you've got how much was Part
B funded and what was not Part B funded and doesn't take
an accountant to figure out that the number under total
amount of contracts and grants, under amount of Part B
funds, is your amount of Part B funds. What your Part B
funds are. That should be an equal number there.

That's a way for you to go back and check.

Now, let's say some of this you have a grant that
you give out to centers for independent living in your
state for their operations because as you see over in
activities, as you know, you have an activity that
allows you to provide the support for the general
operation of your CIL. That's number 4. No. 2 above it
is to provide independent living services directly to
individuals with specific disabilities. Those entities
that receive grants, if they do or contracts for that,
need to be listed here; but if it's only for the
operation of a center or independent living services,
you don't have to ever list them again. But if it's for
something other than that, activities 1, 3, 5, 6, 7 and
8, then you have to list them again. And that would be
in Section D, the grants or contracts for purposes other
than providing independent living services or the
general operation of centers.

Let me go through this and try to give you an
example. My center is Disability Rights and Resources.
So you're all going to pretend like I'm in your state
and let's say that you have grant process by which you
grant my center $10,000 of Part B money just for
operations. So -- and I'm the only center you've got.
That's going to make it really easy.

Section B, activities that were conducted, line 4,
the support of general operation of CIL's, the second
column, expenditures by grants, you're just going to put
the amount, $10,000.

Section C, you're going to put my name on the line,
Disability Rights and Resources. Use of funds,
supported the general operation of CIL. The sum of Part
B funds, $10,000. So we go down -- now the only
reason -- the only thing I go, the only grant to that
entity, to my entities was for the general operation of
centers. You don't put me in Section D. So let's say
that you have another contract. You have a contract
with, oh, let's just play with ILRU. Let's just say for
fun that you as a SILC have a grant out there for
training because that's one of the things you can do is
provide training on No. 7, back on Section D. So it
provided training regarding the independent living
philosophy. You put out a request for quotation, you
receive several responses. ILRU gave you the best
smoking deal on the planet and so under expenditures for
services rendered by grant or contract, let's say you
gave them $8,000 because they're not worth as much as I
am. You gave them $8,000 for that training. Over under
Section C, you will list ILRU. Use of funds, provided
training regarding the independent living philosophy.

How much? $8,000. That name goes in Section D also
because it was something other than operation of centers
and direct independent living services. Then in Section
D it says describe the objectives, activities and
results. So you put down that the objectives of this
grant, the activities that ILRU performed and the
results. And for each grantee listed in Section C that
wasn't a center operation or direct IL services, those
are listed in Section D.

In section E, we're continuing with the idea
because with these grants and contractees that now are
listed, you provide a summary of how it was evaluated.

How did you determine that it was successful? You can
include some kind of a review. You can report onsite
reviews by the DSU, fiscal audits of expenditures, if
there was a corrective action plan, you include that,
but how do you know -- is basically the question, how do
you know that that money was used in a wise fashion?

What kind of fiscal responsibility did you take and
activities that you conduct to make sure that that money
was used properly?

Now, I'm going to take a deep breath here and make
sure we've gotten this part. Ire talking about the
expenditure of the Part B funds, the eight ways it can
be expended and all the way down through section E, you
continue to massage the same information, just in a
different way and give RSA information about those
grantees, the activities, the amounts and so forth. Do
we have any questions about that? Any comments about
that from RSA? Okay.

Now, we're going to talk about the section F, the
administrative support and staffing. So if the DSU
provides administrative support, staffing, to the SILC,
this is where you need to talk about it. You're going
to describe that support, but we're not talking about
SILC staff. We're not talking about what CIL staff
might do for the SILC. We're talking about the DSU.
Because in some states without a SILC employment
situation without a director or whatever, then the CILs
are doing all this stuff and in other places it's the
DSU. This is where it is provided by the DSU. And then
in the second item, you're supposed to put information
about that staffing that you listed in item 1 and what
did they do or how many hours did they provide? It's
very clear in the instructions how to determine that.
The FTE's, which stands for full time equivalents, and
that's outlined in the instructions. So the
decision-making staff entered the information for the
DSU and the service providers in Section C. Way back
over to Section C, not counting Part C funded centers.

One of the things that is different about this 704
that's very clear is we're not taking information from a
Part C center's 704 and rereporting it through your 704.

That's been done in the past. So they come in
differently. So my 704 goes out, the North Carolina's
SILC 704, the information is not duplicated. You've got
mine and then you've got everything else is basically
how it looks. You've got the Part C in your state and
then everything else.

FELIPE: Julia, I just want to make
the point that most of these sections and also the table
B. I think it was -- let's see what table was that --
Section C which is the table and some of the following
questions, basically consolidate in the previous 704
there were several different tables that addressed the
same information contained in this one table so this
table is actually an example of how we have simplified
and streamlined the 704 and made it easier for the DSU's
and SILCs to complete.

JULIA: Right. And I didn't forget to
add or emphasize the fact that you have may grantees
than you have position for and you'll be able
electronically to add rows to this so all of your
grantees have an opportunity to be listed. Thank you.

Okay, section G now, this is the part just for
723's. If you're a 723 state, and this is a very new
section. This is something that was just added for you
guys, how did you distribute the Part C funds to the
centers? You have to -- you have a chart that has the
name of the center, the amount of the Part C funds
received, what their cost of living, yes or no, was
there excess funds after the cost-of-living increase,
yes or no, was this a new center this year? And was
there an onsite compliance review of the center, yes or
no? And it's explained I think in -- just before this
chart you have a list of what each of those columns is
supposed to include. But all of this under section G is
just for 723. So the first thing it talks about your
CIL and how the money was distributed and how you made
that decision if it was new. Item No. 2 is your
administrative support services, what support services
did the DSU give in order to administer your Part C
program? No. 3, how did you monitor your Part C
centers? And there is supposed to be by statute,
15 percent of the centers that receive Part C funds
under this section are supposed to be reviewed every
year and they are supposed to include the following four
elements. Here is where you do a narrative about that.

How dup monitor and how did you ensure compliance? And
then in section 4, item 4, you know, what's new with the
Part C's in your state in what's new with your Part C
program? Or what's gone wrong or what are some of the
obstacles or some of the issues? If you don't use your
opportunities to either brag about your program or give
excuses for your program, then RSA is not going to have
a full picture. If RSA comes on site for a review,
which they will, because that's what one of their
missions and one of their commitments is that they are
going to review all of us in a timely fashion, then
you're going to say, oh, well the reason that this
didn't happen according to the 704 is because our SILC
director quit and we went six months without one. And
your onsite review person from RSA is going to look all
through your 704 and say, no, it didn't happen. This is
not in the 704 report. So you can't come up with an
excuse on the fly. Put it in here. Air your dirty
laundry, and then you can say, hey, we told you that we
didn't have a SILC director for six months and you're a
whole lot better off. You're not going to be punished,
quote-unquote, for telling the truth. Just a matter of
don't try to hide something because you can't. They'll
find you. They will. That's how they are.

Okay, at the end of Subpart I, I want to see if
anybody has any questions because it's a little bit more
complicated than the part 2 Subpart I and I want to make
sure that RSA has said its piece and then do we have any
questions just about Subpart I?

OPERATOR: Thank you. If anyone does
have a question about Subpart I, you may press 01 on
your telephone. The first question comes from Laurie

CALLER: It's actually Ben Harville in this case.

JULIA: Hi, Ben.

CALLER:Howdy, Julia. I just noticed
that there San implication that states have an
obligation to do 15 percent review of Part C recipients.
I was under the impression that that was a federal

JULIA: Are you 723?

CALLER: I'm sorry, 723. Okay, thank you.

JULIA: by. Next.

OPERATOR: the next question comes from Karen.

CALLER: Yes, I'm from Massachusetts.
We are 723.

JULIA: Yes, you are. Bless your heart.

CALLER: It's a question relative to
the staffing under the administrative support services,
the FTE's. Is that relative to Part C or Part C because
I think in the webcast it was talking to the staffing
relative to Part C?

JULIA: No. In fact it very clearly
says excluding Part C funded CIL's.

CALLER: Okay, but were we asking for
the total number of FTE equivalents for the staffing for
the DSU's.

JULIA: for the service provides that
are listed in Section C.


JULIA: So you've got to kind very go
back. Look at your Section C, see where the grantees in
Section C. That information has to go in here. All
this sort of fits together.


FELIPE: in terms of for 723 states,
that's kind of an interesting point because a 723 state
would be given -- would be giving the Part C funds to
the centers in their states. So for 723 state, you
know, I would go ahead and include staff for the Part C
centers that the state gives funds directly to.

JULIA: You know what you're going to
have to do? Massachusetts, you're just going to have to
talk to your RSA team leader.

FELIPE: Yes. Yes.

CALLER: Okay, we'll do that.

JULIA: 723's are only -- there are so
few of you we're not sure what we're doing with you.
FELIPE: Yeah, you can give me a call.
I hope that you're able to understand my explanation,
but if not, feel free to give me a call.


FELIPE: Great.

JULIA: Next?

OPERATOR: Thank you. Do we have any
webcast questions at this time?

SHARON: Yes, we do. We have a couple.

JULIA: Okay.

SHARON: Our first question is how do
we record a consumer who wants to be listed as

JULIA: Now, have we gotten to the
racial part yet? That's coming.


JULIA: Hang on.

SHARON: All right.

JULIA: if I don't answer that
question in the next section, ask me again.

SHARON: All right. Part 1, Section
B, if the DSU gives some Part B funds to the SILC to
provide resources to the SILC, to carry out its
functions, would that go in the second column as a grant
or as a contract?

JULIA: Okay, I think the question is
does it go in the second column as a grant or contract
or does it go into the first column under an expenditure
by the DSU?

SHARON: That may be the question.
JULIA: and the answer is going to be
just like every answer to a 704 question, that depends.
The question is what kind of a relationship was that?
If it was in fact a grant, you still need to have some
kind of paperwork that identifies it as such. And,
therefore, it is a grant.

If it is merely the entity sends you an invoice and
you pay it, that's not a grant or whatever, and then it
becomes an expenditure of Part B funds directly the DSU

SHARON: Okay, thanks. And our other
question is are there areas where the differences
between fee-for-service and pass through funds are not
as clearly defined?

JULIA: There could be. There is
every possible thing in the universe. So in that
situation, what I would do if I was the person who had
this burning question, make a decision based upon the
best advice that we've given you and the instructions,
and then at the end of the report where we ask you for
things we haven't asked you yet, tell us what your
definition was of pass through funds or why you chose to
report a certain thing that was a fee-for-service, but
it really showed up as pass through.

SHARON: That's all the guess I have
at this point in time.

JULIA: Let's fly right into Subpart
II. Now, I want to say this again and I may not -- I
may say it yet more times. We're not talking about the
centers that receive Part C dollars because they do
their own 704 report. Even in Massachusetts they do
their own 704 report. And so here we are talking about
the other service providers that do services for the
SILC through the SILCs and examples of that could be the
DSU, some of the grantees, some of the contractors. It
depends on what your state plan called for, but not the
centers that are doing their own 704 if they receive a
Part C.

And here is where we're going to answer that one
question about ethnicity. See if you can answer it for
yourself when we get to that part. I want to define
some terms here that always have confused us and make
sure that we all agree.

The first is the term "CSR "consumer service
record. A way long time ago, back when Ben was just a
puppy, we decided that we didn't want to be called a
rehabilitation type facility or agency. That our
movement really wanted to not be connected to the
medical model as it were. So we didn't want to have
files and we didn't want to have cases, because that
sounded very much like weigh were in a hospital or we
were in a doctor's office or heaven forbid a rehab
office. And so we decided we wanted to call them CSR's,
consumer service records. It's really a file or a case;
but we call them CSR's. And the statute is very clear
on the elements of a CSR. What do you have to have in
it in order for it to be a CSR? There are five things:
You have to have documentation concerning eligibility or
ineligibility, a statement about the services requested
by the person, an independent living plan developed by
the consumer or a waiver saying that the consumer knew
he could have had an independent living plan and decided
one wasn't necessary, the list of services actually
provided to the consumer, and the independent living
goals or objectives that are established by the consumer
and achieved by the consumer. I'm going to do them

First, is documentation concerning eligibility or
ineligibility. Two, the services requested by the
consumer. Three, either a signed independent living
plan that was developed by the consumer or a waiver that
was signed by the consumer stating that they didn't want
a plan. The services actually provided to the consumer
and the goals or objectives that were established by the
consumer and achieved by the consumer.

Now, a consumer service record could be maintained
electronically. It could be maintained in a file
cabinet, but it does have to have a signed either
independent living plan or waiver, even if the other
information is electronic. So that's what a CSR is.

And I like to say in the independent living
movement that it is also a consumer service
relationship. It's not just a file in a drawer, but it
represents a relationship between someone that you have
contracted with usually from your SILC and the
individuals who have these needs and have expressed
these needs and have a plan of goals and hopefully a
chiefs those goals. And so that is a CSR, consumer
service record.

Now, the next one is a consumer. And a consumer in
definition of the 704 report is a person who has a CSR.
They are going to be places where you'll see consumers
and folks receiving I&R or information and referral. So
you've got two groups of people. You've got people with
a CSR and then you've got the whole rest of the masses
of the world that you've worked that can only be counted
as an information and referral service. And then the
next one, active, inactive and closed.

Just like we didn't want files and cases, we didn't
want opened and closed. We didn't want 10's and 26's
and 28's. We wanted something different. And so we had
two choices in our CSR's, it could either be active
because we were working with that person and we had a
relationship, an active relationship, or the CSR became
inactive. It didn't become closed, it just became
inactive. That means that for whatever reason that
relationship ended. RSA kind of missed the memo and
when we got The 704 Report it asked for the number of
cases closed. Then we started getting questions. How
long should a case be inactive before it becomes closed?
All right, there is no such thing as closed in a 704 or
in the independent living movement. It means inactive.

So there is not a third choice, active, inactive and
closed. So forsake of understanding while it says
closed, it just means inactive. And as I go through,
I'm hoping that this is going to become clear.

So you either have a relationship with that person,
a staff member has a relationship with that person or
doesn't. An active relationship with that person. If
they do, it's active. And if they don't, it's inactive
or closed, the same thing.

Section A in this subpart D, wants to know how many
consumers were served during the reporting year, not by
centers, but the other entities that you have contracted
with. So you put down the number of active CSR's, CSR's
that were active, it says carried over from
September 30th, that means were active on October 1.
For some reason, that relationship began earlier than
October 1 and is continuing through the reporting year.
And so that would be the number that were carried over.
That's the easiest number on the 704 to fill out and
I'll show you why in a minute.

Then you have the number of CSR's that were opened
during the year from October 1st to September 30th.
Even if it was opened for ten minutes or active is the
same thing. If a case became active during that time.

So you add those two up and that's going to tell you the
total number of active relationships that your agency
paid for, that you contracted for or whatever, during
the year. The active CSR's during the year.

Now, some of those CSR's, both carried over and
new, are going to become inactive. Something is going
to happen in that relationship and, therefore, it
becomes inactive. It could be as you can see in Section
B that the person moved. It could be that the person
withdrew, and I want to tell you the difference. If the
person moved, if you lost touch with that person, for
whatever reason, you call, you can't get them. Their
number has changed and you send them a letter and it
comes back. The person has moved and you've lost them.

You can determine that it was inactive because the
person moved; but withdrawn has to be something that the
person actively did. They have to make a statement. I
don't ever want to see you again. Or I've changed my
mind, I don't want to work with you or I don't want to
be independent. It is an active statement by the
consumer, not just somebody who is lost. Died, I think
we can all agree on that definition. Completed all
their goals that were set and they tell you I'm done,
I'm happy, I'm completed. Thank you for all your work
and you do that. Other, there is always some other; but
anyway, why did that relationship end? How many
relationships ended for each of these reasons? And you
add those up. So you'll have the total number of
relationships or CSR's during the year and then the
total that became inactive.

Now, for sake of argument and we can all continue
through the process, I would like for you to come up
with some fictitious numbers if it's okay. Under the
number of active CSR's, pencil in 53 so we can all kind
of agree that this fictitious SILC supported 53 CSR's
that were carried over, and during the year, we became
active of 75 more. That's 128 active CSR's during the
year. That's an important number for later on.

Then you say who became inactive. Now, I'm not
going to go through each of these, but we're just going
to agree that 42 became inactive. So if you go to the
next page where it asks you to subtract the number that
became inactive from the number that were totally
active, you're going to have 86. That number is magic
because it is the one that goes on the first line of
next year because that's how the first line of next year
becomes the easiest number you fill out. You take it
from the year before.

And so that gives you a picture of how many folks
received CSR's through your support and how many became
inactive and why and that's going to be very important
to you. So how many do you have that are continuing a
relationship into next year?

Then when you look at the next one, Section D,
Section D asks you of those 128 people -- remember that
was the magic number -- 128 people, how many waivers do
you have? How many ILPs do you have? When you add that
up, it will be 128. If it's not, you can't count it as
a CSR. Just because you may have a file that is
languishing somewhere and has other information in it,
unless it has either a signed ILP or a waiver, it's not
a CSR. So that number has to equal 128.

Then the age of the person. I want you to look at
the age for a second. You will notice that these ages
are a little different from what they were before. We
did that for three reasons: One, because it sort of
better dove tails with the IDEA requirements. Number
two, because it meets the older Americans act
definition; and three, because it is going to help us
with the U.S. census because these are more of the
census numbers and we can sort of look and see how our
numbers compare to those numbers. So, yeah, the
categories are a little bit different now.

Now, all of these from here on down, age and race
and so forth is going to be self-reported. And so age
unavailable is only going to count if the person doesn't
know how old they are. Not if you don't know how old
they are because you're not filling the forms out in
your CSR's based on what you think or on a phone
conversation or someone you've never met. You can't
have a relationship like that, so it would only be for
folks who don't know how old they are. Everybody else
ought to know and can report to you how old they are and
that goes into the age category.

You add all those up under section E, and they are
supposed to equal 128 because everybody has one age.

Then you have gender or sex. How many females and
how many males? Self-reported. If you don't know, are
you really having a relationship with that person? So
that's why we don't have an unknown because everybody
knows what they want to self-report, what they are.

Maybe they fill out the form that you have in the CSR
that says what is your age, your race, your date of
birth and all of that. But the number of females and
the number of males is going to equal in our fictitious
report 128.

Then you go down to ethnicity. Hispanics or not.
Hispanic looking or not. You have to be one or the
other. You have to be Hispanic or Latino or not. So
when you put in those numbers and here again it is self
reported, it'll equal 128.

Race -- we got to the race question. Race is not
going to equal 128 necessarily because you indicate the
number of consumers and an individual can select more
than one because these are self-reported. And so it
could equal 128. It can't equal less than 128, but it
might definitely be more. You might have someone who
marks both black and Asian or white and American Indian
or whatever. It could be three of them. So you let the
person self-report and that section is the one that will
not equal 128.

And then you have disability. It's difficult when
you're talking about the disabilities because what we
really, really want is to tell more about the person
than RSA wants to know. If I have someone who is
Deaf-blind, for example, and I include that under
multiple, that really doesn't tell RSA as much as if I
was able to count them as two separate disabilities.

Well, but RSA doesn't want to know. If you feel it's
necessary to tell them, for example, you are a part --
and I can pick on Louisiana here -- that has a higher
than typical Deaf-blind population, then you are going
to want to put that in another part of the report and
I'm going to tell you where. If you think it's
important based upon especially some of your state
issues to be able to report that, but otherwise, you
want to tell your board or you want to report it to your
other funding sources -- I mean your council or our
other funding sources, figure out a way to do it because
this won't do it. Here you have cognitive, hearing,
vision, multiple and other so if a person has two or
three or four or five or six, it's multiple.

Now, people have said to me what kind of other is
other? And I'm going to tell you that I have a whole
group that is under other because this is so subjective.

I have systemic disabilities under other, lupus, AIDS,
HIV, fibromyalgia, sometimes it's not more than one
disability, but sometimes it can manifest itself in more
than one way. And so I tend to put that under other and
later on in the report I tell them where it came from,
what it was. And also people are not going to
necessarily self-report the term cognitive. So you're
going to have to decide is a traumatic brain injury a
cognitive disability or is it multiple because it might
have more than one -- you know, it's really difficult to
decide. You decide how you're going to allow your
grantees or contractees to report it and follow up and
make sure they did. So this will also equal 128. Any
comments from RSA?

FELIPE: Just -- thank you, Julia. I
wanted to make a couple of points and expand on some
other points you mentioned.
Recording the di cushion of active and closed
cases, we recognize that individuals in independent
living have different perspectives and preferred
terminology. Some people prefer the term "inactive,"
others prefer the term "closed." but did term RSA has
chosen to use is closed, but again, you can consider it
as inactive, but the term we used is closed and we like
the idea of relationship in active CSR's, but the key in
an active CSR is that the consumer is actively pursuing
his or her goals. That's the critical idea in an active
CSR so that when a consumer has completed his or her
goals, then it will be appropriate to close the CSR. Of
course if the consumer wants to reopen it, the next day
or the next moment, there is nothing that prevents that
from happening and the active reopening of CSR or making
a closed CSR active need not be burdensome. It can be
very easy, a very quick affair.

The other thing I wanted to say, I just want to em
size that in these category it's, the key is that it's
self-reported. In almost every case it's self-reported
by the consumer and then one thing about the age ranges
that I want to point out is that these age ranges have
changed with respect to the previous 704 report. And
the main reason that some of these categories have
changed is that we have chosen to make them conform with
the U.S. Census Bureau categories and the main reason we
wanted to do that is because it would allow us to make
very interesting research regarding the impact of IL so
that for example if we come up with a figure for the
total number of people served by age range, then we can
compare it with the general population of individuals
with disabilities in the whole country in the same age
ranges and kind of done analysis of our relative impact
on people in this country and there are other research
reasons that having our figures conform with the U.S.
Census Bureau will be very helpful in making our case of
the impact of IL.

Then the final thing I wanted to mention is
regarding the disability category. You know, we do care
about people with multiple disabilities and the
breakdown perhaps of what those multiple disabilities
are; but we wanted the numbers to equal the 128 as in
the other categories. So for it to equal the same
number of total CSR's, we had to sacrifice having each
of the multiple disabilities disaggregated. However, we
encourage you in some of the narrative sections in the
704 to let us know, for example, if there are large
percentages of individuals that have within their
multiple disabilities a large number of a particular
disability so we do want to know that in the narrative
sections, but not necessarily in this demographic

And the last thing I want to mention is regarding
the disability categories, one way in which you could
look at that is that they describe functional
limitations, not diagnosis, not the reason individuals
have a certain limitation, whether it be physical or
hearing or vision. It focuses on the limitation or the
issue, not so much the medical cause for it. So I hope
these clarifications help.

JULIA: Good. Do we have questions on part 2?

OPERATOR: Thank you. If anyone has a
question at this time, please press 01 on your telephone
key pad.

Thank you. We have no audio questions. Sharon, do
we have any from the webcast?

SHARON: Thank you. This is Subpart
I, Section B, and our state Part B money flows from the
DSUs to the SILCs via contract. So that money will go
in the second column, but the SILC in turn subcontracts
the majority of that money out to the CILs. Do those
subcontracts get recorded here and in subpart C. somehow
or do we just record the single contract the DSU has
with the SILC?

FELIPE: I'd like to answer that question, Julia.

JULIA: I would like for you to.

FELIPE: That's a good question and
the answer is that we only want the contract to the SILC
to be recorded here in this section. However, we are
interested in knowing about the latter part of what you
said, about the activities of a SILC and what the SILC
does with the funds that it receives from the DSU; and,
you know, there is a section, Subpart V, which we'll get
to about the statewide independent living council. And
there are some narrative questions where that
information can be included, but for the purpose of
Subpart I, all we want to know is the amount and
destination of the DSU contracts and grants.

JULIA: Okay, anything else?

SHARON: Thank you. This may have
been addressed but let me go ahead and ask the question.

I think our webcast joiner came in late. Can a record
be a CSR if a consumer has not received services or
achieved goals but is eligible? Has identified services
requested and an ILP done.

JULIA: It has to have the five
elements in order to be a CSR. I can't believe that you
would have -- even through the initial meeting with the
person, you will have provided them a service, even if
it's information and referral. Even if it's a peer
relationship or peer counseling. So it is a CSR if it
has the five elements that I referred to earlier and can
be kept electronically or it can be kept in a file; but
don't under report services that are provided to that
person. Because once you assist a person in developing
their goals and thinking through and sort of fleshing
out why they came there in the first place, you're going
to have already provided some services in relationship
with getting ready for their establishing their goals.
Just because they haven't met their goals, well, sure,
they haven't met their goals, but they are a CSR if they
have the five elements.

SHARON: Okay, and I know that this
has been relayed, but this question is asked again and
again. Could you just repeat real quickly the five

JULIA: Absolutely. First of all, it
is documentation concerning eligibility or
ineligibility. Number two, it is the list of services
requested by the consumer. Number three, either a
signed independent living plan or a signed waiver.
Number four, the list of services actually provided to
the consumer. And number five, are the independent
living goals or objectives that were established by the
consumer and achieved by the consumer. Okay.

SHARON: All right. I think everybody
that's on heard that. That is the end of our questions
at this point in time.

JULIA: Okay, well, that won't last
because we're flying into Subpart III and this one is
the one that's going to be different and unusual and
it's going to take everybody's close attention as I try
to go through and explain this section.

Individual services and achievements that were
funded by part D. In this section, you got three
related tables designed to measure how independent
living services, especially those core services, have,
quote, from the instructions, helped maximize the
leadership, empowerment, independence and productivity
of individuals with disabilities and the integration and
full inclusion of individuals with disabilities into the
mainstream of American society, unquote.

That means we're now going to have to quantify
those difficult terms: Leadership, empowerment,
independence, productivity and integration. We are
starting off with the first table, individual services
and achievements. We are only talking about the
consumers who were provided services through Part B
funds either directly or by grant but not consumers that
are from centers that have received Part C funds. I
keep saying that to make sure that we know that this is
the other money, the other services.

The list of services, and you've probably seen this
before, but you haven't seen the two columns to the
right this. Is new. The idea of this is to report the
number of individual services provided to a consumer who
has a CSR and who all those people who receive
information and referral. So all you have the services,
all is the way from A to W are about -- are through a
CSR, a relationship, a person working towards their
goals except for I, information and referral. So let me
tell you about all the rest of it and then I'll come
back to information and referral.
You list a service requested by a consumer based
upon the goals that they have. If a person has one goal
and let's say his name is Ralph, and under that one goal
in the course of the scope of this year and this
relationship and this CSR and this plan, through the
center he requested or through the entity that's
providing services he requested three units of advocacy,
two units of independent living skills and one unit of
recreation for one goal that he has in his plan.

Then in the first column he gets counted a one
under advocacy for him, a one under independent living
skills training for him, and a one under recreation.

But if he actually received those services during the
reporting year, those get reported under the receiving
column, which is next. If a person has more than one
goal, let's say Ralph has three goals: Housing,
transportation and personal assistance. And he receives
advocacy in each of the three goals, he's counted as a
three because the services are specific to the goals
more than they are just to the person. So you look at
the number of goals, what the person receives under the
goal and each goal is reported separately as the
services that were received, not the goal itself; but
the services that are received. A person can have a
goal of transportation and in the course of that they
may need some advocacy because the paratransit driver
threw him off because he had a service animal. And so
his goal was transportation. The service he received
was advocacy. We'll report the goal in a minute. Right
now we're reporting the services.

If to a consumer you provided information and
referral for a particular goal, that gets counted under
I, but then so do all of the other information and
referral issues that you get the great unwashed as I
like to call them. All those people out there that you
provide information to during the course of your year.

That's where you're going to get that they requested and
they received information and referral.

A couple of things I want to point out here, C,
service C, childrens services. In the definitions in
your instructions packet, you're going to see that the
definition of childrens services is services under 14.

Specific independent living services designed to serve
individuals under the age of 14. So don't get bogged
down in trying to compare these children services to the
age categories we had earlier. Two different parts of
the 704, two whole different issues, and just because a
person is under 14 doesn't mean that they automatically
received children service. A child who is 13 and needs
help learning to ride the bus did not get a children's
service, they got a transportation service. And so this
is a specific independent living service designed to
serve individuals under the age of 14. That's a
children service. The same thing with youth f you flip
over to U. That's defined in the instructions as
youth/transition and it's ages 14 to 24. That
specifically has to do with transitioning not out of a
nursing home, you know, that would be even if they were
20 years old that would come under a different service.

We're talking about transitioning into the community,
either from high school to work, high school to college,
or at 24 it could even be college to work, something
like that, but those transitional periods in a person's
life between 14 and 24. Not nursing home transition.
And so it would be a service specific for someone who is
transitioning from that Point A to Point B for someone
ages 14 to 24.

A couple of others I want to explain here also.
I've always been curious what is the difference between
assistive technology, which is No. 2, B, assistive
technology and R on the next page, rehabilitation
technology services. And I got a definitive answer and
it makes perfectly good sense.

Assistive technology is stuff that is available in
the community or over the counter, off the shelf, if you
will, but rehabilitative technology is more if something
had to be developed or built, perhaps it included the
services of a rehab engineer. Chances are that if it
didn't require that kind of high level of development
or, you know, a group of people had to get their heads
together to come up with a plan or a technology, then
it's going to be assistive technology. When in doubt,
call it assistive technology because if you're in doubt
you know that there wasn't that high level of technology
that had to be provided.

It is possible for a consumer to receive a service
and not -- I mean to request a service and not receive
it for any number of reasons. Not the least of which is
they could have requested it on September 28th and
received it on October 15th. This is the reporting year
and all of this stuff that goes into this report is
closed out as of September 30th. So something that
happens in the next reporting year gets reported in the
next reporting year. There are any other number of
reasons, but those numbers are not necessarily going to

Then we have Section B, we have the section table
and that is the goals related to increasing independence
in a significant life area. Now, significant life area
is a new term for us, but conceptually it's the same as
what we've done in the past. What was the person's
goals? What goals were established? The actual stated
goal is what needs to go here, not the steps to the
goal, but the stated goal. And I want to go through
some of those with you.

If you have a goal that is set and once it is set
it is both set and in progress if there is actual work
being done on it. D, you see here, community-based
living, includes not only prevention from going into a
nursing home but also moving abode from one place to
another. They were in the community and moving in the
community to another place. They need to move out of
mama's house. They need to move because now with their
disability they're going to have to have a ground floor
unit. They have to get out of public housing because
their mom is now moved in and there is not enough room
or it's not on the lease or any number of reasons people
would move within the community from Point A to Point B.

That's community-based living.

If you look down to J, relocation from a nursing
home or institution to community-based living, that's
very clear. That's it now. So if they are in an
institution and they are wanting to get out, that's J.

That's their goal. If they are in the community already
and they are moving, that's D, community-based living or
prevention from someone going into a nursing home. It
kind of depends on how the independent living plan was
written and of course the independent living plan is in
the words of the consumer and so whoever is filling this
out and reporting to you what the goals were has got to
be that person that has a relationship and kind of
understands even though the person didn't say, you know,
my goal in life is information access and technology,
that they know that that's what -- how they can
categorize it here and then the goal is in frog rest
while the person is working on it and once it's
achieved, which is reported by the consumer,
self-reported achievement, then sit listed as a goal
achieved. These numbers will also never, ever add up.

You will not have the number of goals achieved and goals
in progress to equal the number of goals set because
things happen over reporting years. People set a goal
and then they drop it. People set a goal and they
change it. So it's not ever expected to add up.

But that's the goal. It's not the service. The
services received are in Section A. The goal itself has
was stated is in Section B.
Then you get Section B, item 2, which is the brand
spanking new fun word.

FELIPE: Julia, may I just interject
for a moment. Very good explanation, I just wanted to
add a couple of things. The number of potential
goals -- this is flip Felipe Lulli by the way that a
consumer might have is practically infinite. And it's
very hard to report on infinite number of goals. So we
came up with these significant life areas as helpful
categories under which all goals could fit. That's the
reason we came up with these significant life areas.

And that in turn will help us report to the outside
world, so to speak, about again the impact that
independent living is making on people around the nation
and in the territories. So that's how we came up with
the significant life areas.
And these categories are virtually identical to the
individual achievement categories that the old 704 had
with the addition of two -- one being relocation from a
nursing home or institution which is what Julia
mentioned before; but also another one called
community/social participation. That's a new goal that
we added because I think we thought that it addressed a
lot of -- well, it was a significant life area which we
believed addressed a lot of goals that would not
otherwise be able to be included, that were not included
in the previous 704. And the last thing I want to
mention regarding community-based living, in addition to
what our facilitator said, community-based living also
can include somebody who wants to stay where they are
currently living in a community setting but needs either
home modifications or maybe needs IL skills training in
order to be able to stay where that person is currently.
So that's all I wanted to add and will be happy to
answer any questions afterwards.

JULIA: Great. Very good. Thank you.

Okay, now we get to the newest of the new. You've never
seen anything like this before. And let me say that
this is a table for consumers and people who are
receiving I&R. Just like the first one was. So the
first one was consumers anywhere, I&R, simply
information and referral, and service I for information
and referral. Second table was consumers only, and what
their goals were. Table 2a, if you will, item 2, A, is
for people who have CSR's and also those individuals to
whom you provide information and referral.

The goal here is not what the SILC has provided or
what has been provided by the Part B dollars. It is
what has been achieved, attained or acted upon by the
individual who received the information. The focus here
is so much more on the receiving and acting upon, not
what was done. Not what was thrown out there. There is
something very different and we've always been afraid in
the past to report what a person acted on because we
didn't have control over it. So we can lead the horse
to water. The horse doesn't drink and we're thinking,
you know, we don't get credit for that. Well, this
section is not about getting credit. This section is
about what is happening in the community. This is one
of those things that's going to make sense to OMB, which
is one of the reasons it's not going to make so much
sense to us, but that's just a little offhand comment

RSA chose three areas. There are 1,000 areas, we
all know that, but they chose three areas because these
are so primal. They actually intwine everything else
that we do. If a person doesn't have access to
transportation or health care or assistive technology,
then they really are behind so much in their ability to
be independent. And they could have picked three
others. They could have picked three additional ones,
but these just the big three and these are the ones
we're going to work with.

In some cases, these are also tangible and that's
going to be helpful. And so here they are going to want
to know the number of individuals, not just consumers,
but also with I&Rs who required access. Now the
definition of require is requested. Someone wouldn't
have requested if it they didn't need it, chances are.
That's our position, and so we say that this is the
number of individuals who had a need to know more in
order to achieve transportation, health care, assistive

And then you provided something. What did you
provide? It can be anything that an independent living
center does or anything that you would contract out for.

You might contract out for, let's say, gait training for
individuals, say children who are blind and need to
learn mobility training or gait training, and you might
determine that that's a part of transportation because
their goal is to go to learn to be independent at the
bus stop or with the bus system, whatever. So when a
person requests a service, which could even be
information, in order to be able to access one of these
three things, you provided independent living skills,
I&R, peer counseling, any of the regular services,
independent living skills or something else that you
have paid for through Part B funds, and the person acted
on it and achieved, they get counted under the
If you follow up and find out that, well, they
haven't acted on it yet, but they are thinking about it.
They are promising they are going to do it. They want
to. You can count that under access in progress.
Now, for the individuals who have CSR's, this is
pretty easy to identify because here again they are
actively working on their goals and someone that --
someone has a relationship with that person. And so a
person says their goal is housing, but it was in the
course of discussing the steps in order to achieve
housing, the person recognizes that they're going to
have to learn how to use the bus system. So they've let
you know or you've said to them, how are you going do
get back and forth from your work to your new apartment?

I don't know. I don't have a clue. Well, do you know
how to ride the bus? No, I don't. Could that be an
option for you? Yeah, I guess I need to learn how to
ride the bus. So that is a consumer requiring access
for transportation. So you say, all right, here is the
phone number. Contact so and so entity and have them
train you on the bus schedule. Then later, that person
who has a relationship with the consumer, says are you
on the bus system yet? Well, no, they told me how to do
it, but I haven't gotten around to it. That's a
consumer whose access is in progress. But then if you
come back and say, yeah, I ride it. I love it. I get
it. They've achieved access. If they say, you know, I
changed my mind, I don't want to learn how to ride the
bus, they don't ever get counted again here.

Follow up with a consumer is the easy part, but
what do you do for those individuals who contact you.
You give them whatever it is or contact the entity
through the Part B dollars, and it's provided. How do
you know anything happened? Well, Section B, if you
look down here -- did the service provider, the entity
that you contracted with or whomever, did they or did
they not follow up with information and referral
recipient to see if they had actually followed through?

You've got a word here that you'll see in a couple of
places in this section called previously unavailable.
Let me define that for you.
It doesn't necessarily mean that whatever that
thing is like the bus never was available to this person
because it didn't come to their neighborhood.

Previously unavailable means that they either didn't
know about it. They knew about it and they didn't
bother to learn about it. They knew about it and they
never thought it was going to affect them. Or in fact
it wasn't available. There is any number of reasons why
the person was not using something that they needed in
the field of transportation, health care and assistive
technology. That's the definition of previously
unavailable. For some reason -- it doesn't matter
why -- the person just didn't have that in their
repertoire, so to speak. So it is the activity that you
have provided or you have paid for that leads to a
person changing something and it's not just changing
their knowledge. You know, oh, now I know about it.
It's actually having access to whatever that is.

So let plea give you an idea of how this might play
out from three statements. A person is unable to gain
access to public transportation for whatever reason.

Through the Part B dollars, the individual has gained
access to public transportation. It's not the service,
it's now recording that the person has access.

A person is unable to gain access to the doctor's
office. Maybe it was a physical site issue, maybe it
was lack of interpreting services, whatever. And
through an activity that was funded by a Part B, by Part
B money, that individual now has access to the doctor's
office. That is achieved access.

A person is unable to gain access to a
communication device, and through Part B funds and
activities funded by Part B, that individual now has the
communication device. So that's how that is going to
work. You get to talk about the numbers in table A,
Section B, did this entity or did it not engage in
follow up activity when they threw the information and
referral out there to the great unwashed and Section C
is give us comments about any of this. Anything
particularly wonderful, particularly difficult, major
obstacles, any information regarding those individual
services because this is part of what OMB is going to be
looking at and there is going to have to be some
explanation that RSA has to understand what some of the
other issues are.

The goal of all of this is how did you use Part B
dollars to eliminate barriers? And barriers actually
were eliminated. That's the part here. So RSA respond
and then we'll take questions on Subpart III.

FELIPE: Okay. Thank you. This is Felipe Lulli again.
The access to transportation,
health care services -- what I'm going to say now has
already been covered by Julia, but I'm providing a
different way to look at it and maybe to reinforce what
has been said.

Let's see, the access to transportation, health
care services and assistive technology can support
almost any number of goals. In the previous section, we
talked about the goals. These three areas at this point
are not considered the goals. They are considered
necessary ingredients in order to achieve a goal. So if
the goal in the previous section was housing or
employment, for example, it could be that without
transportation the individual could not achieve either
of those goals. So without transportation the person
has an obstacle to achieving the goal. Once the
individual is given access to transportation, then the
individual can achieve the goal.

The second thing I want to point out is that any
number of individual services that were identified in
Section A can support the achieved -- the overcoming of
the obstacle of not having adequate transportation to
achieve -- to arrive at work or at employment or home.

For example, any of the core services can help somebody
achieve transportation, overcome obstacles to
transportation. Mobility and orientation training can
help an individual achieve transportation. Or products
and prosthesis can help an individual achieve access to
transportation. So, again, any number of individual
services can support any of these three areas,
especially the core services.
Also the need to achieve transportation -- the
realization that we have to work on transportation after
you may have set a housing goal can originate with the
consumer or it could originate with the IL specialist at
the center or the service provider. It's a mutual
thing, but it doesn't have to be initiated at the very
first -- by the consumer. It could be a joint decision
that we need to pursue this after the transportation I
need to achieve my employment goal. And a little bit of
what we're talking about here is outcome vs output and
maybe Julia you can talk a little about that as well.

And I wanted to point out regarding information and
referral follow up contacts, it's not a requirement that
we are imposing on the DSU or the service providers or
contractors, grantees. It's an option, an opportunity
that we are encouraging you all to take advantage of as
another way of showing or documents the outcomes that
you are able to produce, the life changing access that
are being expended to more people so that if you can
contact the people who received I&R services and get
them to tell you, yes, I have done this with this and
now my life is better this way, you document it any way
you want to and then you can report it on this -- in
this section.

Areas for service providers who are located in
rural areas, for example, where there may not be any
transportation services at this point, don't worry about
being penalized for this. In Section C, that's where
you talk about what are the systemic obstacles that
you're facing and then in section Subpart IV which we
haven't gotten to, you report about what kind of
community wide activities -- community change activities
you're engaged in to in the future provide more
transportation options for your consumers.

And the last thing I want to mention is that in the
704 and including this section that we're discussing
now, there are ways to report on outcomes made possible
by other funders, not only Title VII, but other funders,
too. We talked about some of the pass throughs earlier
today. Well, there are ways of reporting on outcomes
produced by pass through dollars or this could be other
federal dollars, other state funds, local funds. You
know, private funds.
So these individuals might have other plans and
other CSR's imposed by other funders, but if these other
funding sources record include the five elements
required of a CSR under Title VII and we've gone through
them several times, then you can count outcomes and
goals achieved through these other funders. And we're
not requiring you to, but if you can find a way that's
not burdensome for the center or for the service
provider or for the consumer, we encourage you to look
at those possibilities and if you need to ask us
specific questions as to how to do that, we'd be happy
to talk about that. So those are the points that I
wanted to reinforce and I think Sean Barrett, my
colleagues here at RSA wanted to add something as well.
Sean? Sean?

SHARON: Excuse me, this is Sharon. I
wanted to let everyone know we are reaching the top of
the hour and we have roughly about 16 minutes left.

FELIPE: Okay, thank you. Sean?

OPERATOR: This is the conference
operator. Who are you looking for, sir?

FELIPE: You know, I don't know if I'm
on the call anymore.

OPERATOR: Yes, you are.

FELIPE: Okay. Could you hear Sean?
Sean is speaking right now. Can you hear him?

OPERATOR: No, we cannot hear him.

FELIPE: I don't know what the
particular difficulty is. I'll see if he has his mute

SHARON: This is Sharon again. I
apologize for the technical difficulties.

FELIPE: We've lost Sean. The point
that Sean was making -- can you hear me now?

FELIPE: We apologize for that but he
was making a very important point and that is that these
three transportation, health care services and assistive
technology are not priorities. They are not even goals,
but they are not priorities. We don't want anybody to
think that by coming up with these three areas that we
want to convey the message that these are priorities
that must be pursued in every community at the expense
of other goals that are of more immediate need within
that community. We want to avoid having this new report
drive or to unduly influence what priorities are set in
each community and what services are provided in each
community and how these services and goals are pursued
within each community. We want to keep the community
flexibility inherent in this program.

JULIA: Since we have about 14 minutes
left, I want to make sure we get through the rest of the
instrument, understanding that there will probably be
questions and there probably now questions, but in order
to finish through, and then we'll take questions to the
top of the hour and then Tim will reiterate how you can
ask your questions on the forum hopefully so that people
can post their questions there. We've seen questions
from yesterday that are very helpful and you may want
the review those also.

I'm going dog now into Subpart IV, the community
activity. In the past we've allowed or we've had an
opportunity to list the hours that were spent in various
community -- I think they called them community systems
change activities or something, and it was an option for
us to put in the hours and now it is not an option
anymore. We're going to need to have an idea of how
many hours were spent. This, again, Section A, excludes
the centers that received Part C funding. What
community activity did the Part B funds pay for during
the reporting year? So the idea is to list the issue
area and it would be very nice if those were, say,
transportation, health care, assistive technology, even
housing is one that we would like to highlight here.

And any number of issue areas and we know that l are a
lot and you can add more rows, but it would be nice if
we had a little bit more information about those. And
then the activity -- what activity was it? Who was the
primary entity involved? And how many hours were spent?
What were the objectives and what were the outcomes?

Not just by the DSU staff or whomever or the CIL who --
or Part B CILs I guess you might call them, or the SILC,
but you can also talk about volunteer hours and if it's
a CIL, a Part B CIL and it has a board or an advisory
group, those folks' hours can also be included here.

Felipe said something about the difference between
outcomes and output and here we're asking for outcomes.
An output is an activity according to the instructions.

Now, everybody on the phone has had their outcomes
training and it's all been different in the terminology.
The words are the same, but the definitions are
different. So for this particular document, an output
is an activity that was performed. The outcome is what
changed as a result of the activity? And quantify that
to the extent possible.

Now, let's say the issue area is transportation.
The activity type is participation on a regional transit
board. The primary entity that did that was the SILC
chair or the SILC Executive Director or something.

There were 8,000 hours spent on it. It would feel like
probably. The objective was to establish regional
transportation for people with disabilities. And the
outcome was that one of the communities represented in
the table bought a lift equipped bus. Well, we didn't
meet the full objective, but there was a positive
outcome. That was the result of what happened and so we
do need to be talking about, if possible, or you know
three lift equipped buses were purchased or whatever.

So the issue areas -- it doesn't have to be limited to
those, transportation, health care, housing, assistive
technology, no. Any issue area for which Part B has
paid or for which Part B funds have been used.

But then in item 2, for each of the activities
listed above, give us some more detail about the role of
the DSU, the SILC, the CIL's and any other partner
organizations and flesh it out a little bit more for us.

Because just those little field that is you were having
to fill in on the table didn't give us much information
as there should be. And that would be a good place to
talk about what -- how it got bogged down or how
exciting it was to at least see that much successor
whatever you want to say there. That's a narrative

Section B is how all the folks in your state play
well in the sand box together. And this we do include
CILs that receive Part B dollars because as you know the
SILC is supposed to be where everybody comes together
and makes sure that people with disabilities in your
state receive what they need in independent living. In
order to do that, everybody has to be thinking off the
same page. So describe the DSU and the SILC activity.

The activities that were sponsored to maximize the
cooperation, coordination and working relationship among
the entire independent living world in your state. The
SILC's, the CIL's, the DSU's o they are state agencies,
other public and private entities. What did you do,
what did you expect would happen, and what actually
happened? Those are part 4 -- Subpart IV, your
community activity and then how everybody plays well in
the sand box together.

Subpart V, Felipe talked about earlier. This is
where you talk about your SILC. You talk about the name
of the SILC member, whether or not they are employed by
a state agency or a CIL or neither. The category, the
voting, the term starts, the term ends and if you have a
vacant position, that needs to be listed so that the
total number of names or the term vacant down under the
SILC member equals the number of members in your bylaws.

And then you will mark out your little X.'s and all the
little squares beside it and then you will find out
whether or not a majority or, you know, where the CILs
are more -- you have too many CIL representatives or too
many state representatives or too many whatever. You'll
fill out of those out. You've already got that list
somewhere. That one will be easy.
And then you have the composition requirement. And
include the vacancies. So how many members are on the
SILC? How many are this? How many are that? And how
many of the voting members are individuals with
disabilities not employed by either? Here again, that
should be simple. Whoever is the secretary for SILC or
if it's the DSU person in charge of staffing the SILC,
that information is easy to write down. And as the next
section, how the SILC is (Inaudible) with statewide
representation? Now, give the RSA a break here. They
are smart, but they are not all geography majors and you
don't need to say, well, we have a person from gold
borrow and a Greensboro and a person from -- because
that doesn't tell them anything. You've got to tell
them, you know, the state is divided into four regions
and they are the west and the east and the middle and
blah, blah, blah and we have representation and the
following manners from the different regions. We
don't -- RSA doesn't know one town from another. And so
be more helpful with that as far as statewide
representation. And then you talk about the
disabilities and the diverse backgrounds. These are
fleshing out these folks. And then how do you know that
these members are knowledgeable about centers for
independent living? How do you know they are? What
criteria do you use? It would also be helpful to tell
us how the nominations happened and how you make sure
that the recommendations to the governor are people who
actually know independent living centers. Are
knowledgeable about independent living centers because
that's a requirement to be a SILC member.

The Section C you talk about your SILC staff. The
SILC Executive Director --

FELIPE: Julia, I'm wondering if we
should open up. There is only five minutes I guess
left. There is a lot of good stuff to cover, but I
think that the rest is pretty self-explanatory.

JULIA: Okay.

FELIPE: How about if you go into some

JULIA: If that's what you wish to do,
that would be fine with me.

FELIPE: Maybe some people can ask
some questions about the categories -- the sections we
haven't discussed even.

JULIA: Okay, do we have questions?

OPERATOR: Thank you. If anyone has a
question at this time, please press the 01 on your
telephone. Thank you. The first audio question comes
from Ms. Burton.

CALLER: Hey July ya. I'm confused a
little about our new section where we're talking about
the information and referral because in South Carolina
we grant out money to one Center for Independent Living
and we're going to be recording -- they're going to send
us their numbers of what they've done with information
and referral and their numbers about their CSR's and all
of that, but we also have money -- our Part B funding
which goes to our Commission for the Blind. They would
also be expected to fill out that whole section as well,

JULIA: Correct.


JULIA: if anything Part B dollars are
used for.

FELIPE: Now, in terms of the centers,
this is a very good question, a very important question.
If a center receives one dollar in Part C funds from us,
directly from RSA directly, and they also receive Part B
funds, you don't report on them.

CALLER: Okay, this is a totally Part
B funded center.

FELIPE: in that case, yes. I wanted
to clarify that for everybody. If anybody receives one
dollar of Part B funds is not covered by your report.

CALLER: and the other question --
(Inaudible) is the activities that our council actually
does -- all of this other information was referring to
what our Part B dollars goes to do, but doesn't really
cover the goals and objectives where the SILC puts on a
conference every year, does education of our
legislators, provides assistive -- does assistive stuff
to the centers by providing information and education.

FELIPE: Well, actually, you know,
Julia, if you don't mind me jumping in, that's the part
Julia hasn't addressed yet. Under Section D, we talk
about SILC duties, that's where you would put in
activities as it relates to those subcategories.

CALLER: It says describe any other

SILC activities funded by nonPart B funds.

FELIPE: Oh, no, that's a different
question. The activities that you're talking about,
they should be able to fit under A, B. or C. or D.


JULIA: We're in Subpart VI.

CALLER:Yeah, I'm on it.

JULIA: Brag the heck on South
Carolina under Subpart VI because you deserve it. What
were your goals? How did you do? How didn't you do?
What were your problems? But this is the old narrative
and so this is specific to your work goals.


JULIA: and, you know, your work goals
are in your CIL and so that's going to automatically
meet your CIL anyway, but that's where you do all of
that. The accomplishments and activities Section B,
part 6, tells everything.

CALLER: Okay. I see those. Thank you.

JULIA: Sure. Next question.
OPERATOR: There are no more audio
questions. Do we have any web questions at this time?

SHARON: Yes, thank you, Dawn. We
have a couple of them. This is in regard to Subpart
III. How does this section apply to Part B funded CILs
who do not provide services? What if the DSU is no
longer providing CILs except with Title I funding? Is
all of this then reported by Part C funded CILs who get
part D. contracts for general operation on the part 2 of
the 704? And then there would be nothing on part 1?

Let me know if you need me to repeat any of that.

FELIPE: Yes, please repeat the question.

SHARON: Okay. And it's in relation
to Subpart III. How does this section apply to Part B
funded SILCs who do not provide services?

JULIA: No, it would be a CIL.

SHARON: Okay. They have SIL who do
not provide services. What if the DSU is no longer
providing -- and my guess is this is SILC -- except with
Title I funding? Is all of this then reported by Part C
funded CILs who get Part B contracts for general
operation on the part 2 of the 704? And then there
would be nothing I guess listed is what it should be on
part 1?

JULIA: Uh-huh. Yeah. I think that's
a very important question because if all of the services
that are being provided in the state are being provided
by Part C centers, that's a real good thing for RSA to
know about that state and that needs to be reported such
that all this would be zero and when the RSA gets in --
when your team for your state gets in your part 1 and
all of your part 2's and comparing, then they will be
able to provide some feedback and technical assistance
back to that state. And it may be absolutely kosher and
everything is great and there might be some
recommendations, but if the service are not provided,
it's a zero by Part B funds.

SHARON: All right, Julia, thanks.
FELIPE: We want to avoid duplication,
so whatever is reported in part 1, we don't want to also
be reported in part 2 and vice versa.

SHARON: All right. Thank you, guys.
We have just about run out of time here.

JULIA: Okay, we're done.


TIM: Yeah, thanks, Sharon. Just
going to go ahead and tell everybody how they can did
ask additional questions. I know we've run right up
here to five o'clock. I want to be quick. The way to
do that is to go to the NCIL web page and on the web
page near the top of the page is a link to the message
board. Other topics on this message board, you do have
to be a member, however, for this -- for questions on
the 704, they are open to everyone. The direct web
address for that message board is

And again, that's And if you need
that web address or if you don't have Internet access,
please feel free to give plea a call at (202)207-0334.

That's (202)207-0334.

I want to thank everybody for joining us today and
I especially want to thank Julia and Felipe and the rest
from RSA for making this call a possibility. We hope to
hear from you guys. Take care. Bye-bye.

JULIA: Thanks, by.

SHARON: Thank you all.

OPERATOR: That does conclude today's conference.

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