Board of Trustees - Regular Meeting
Minutes of January 20, 2009
Call to Order: Supervisor Jesse Lambert called the January 20, 2009 regular meeting of the Ho lly Township Board
of Trustees to order at or about 6:30 p. m. at the Ho lly To wnship Hall, 102 Civic Drive, Holly, M ichigan, 48442.
Pledge of Allegiance
Members Present: Others Present:
Supervisor Jesse Lambert Robert DePalma, Groveland Township Supervisor
Clerk Karin Winchester Alison Kalcec, Rose Township Supervisor
Treasurer Mark Freeman Chief Jeremy Lintz, N.O.C.F.A.
Trustee Steve Ruth Lt. Gary Parsons, Michigan State Police
Trustee Janet Leslie Undersheriff Mike McCabe, Oakland Co. Sheriff
Police Chief Rollie Gackstetter, Village of Holly
(Others Present, continued:) Marsha Powers, Holly Village Manager
Val Bouchard Larry Lilly
Jackie Campbell Walter Flagg
Dave Curt is Douglas Arden
Mark Diaz Mark McHalp ine
Mike Gould Joe Hutchins
Laina Mobley Tim Seal
John VanAllman Jennifer Spear
1. Agenda Approval
2. Approval of Special Meeting Minutes - December 10, 2008
3. Approval of Regular Meeting Minutes - December 16, 2008
4. Acceptance of Financial Statements - December 2008
5. Approval of Bills for Pay ment - January 2008.
6. Routine Reports:
A. N.O.C.F.A. Draft M inutes - December 15, 2008
B. Planning Co mmission Draft M inutes - December 8, 2008
C. Building Permits - December 2008 and 2008 Yearly Report.
D. Treasurer’s Quarterly Report.
7. Co mmunicat ions: None
Trustee Janet Leslie moved to approve the Consent Agenda, as amended. Clerk Karin Winchester
supported the moti on. A voice vote was taken; all those present voted yes, the moti on carried.
Supervisor Lambert: No report.
Treasurer Freeman reported he has a statutory duty to hire a part-time deputy treasurer. He has hired Ms. Janice
Nash, who is present this evening. He requested she stand and be recognized. (Applause)
Holly Township Board of Trustees – Minutes of January 20, 2009 Page 2 of 23
Clerk Winchester: No report.
Trustee Ruth: No report.
Trustee Leslie reported the North Oakland County Fire Authority (N.O.C.F.A.) has selected Mr. Robert Cass as
Citizen-at-Large. He is a Rose Township resident.
Ol d Business:
1. Police Services
Chief Jeremy Lintz indicated there are several types of calls N.O.C.F.A. responds to that require police assistance
before the fire authority will make the scene. These could be combative patients, alcohol into xication, drug
overdoses, and weapons, as well as car accidents and other types of calls. In the last year and a half to two years
there has been a steady increase in late response times fro m the Mich igan State Police. There are numerous calls
where other law enforcement agencies , such as the Holly Village Po lice Depart ment or Oakland County Sheriff’s
Depart ment, respond because the Michigan State Police have been delayed or can’t get there in a timely fashion.
He would like to play a tape-record ing obtained from Oakland County dispatch, their dispatch center,
involving an incident that happened January 4, 2009, where the victim had a self-inflicted gunshot wound. (The
tape-recording was played.)
The N.O.C.F.A. unit was on the scene at 11:47 PM, three minutes after the 9-1-1 call was made. The
Michigan State Police unit that would be responding was located at the Oakland County Jail and arrived at 12:05.
This is no fault of the Mich igan State Police. N.O.C.F.A. has a wonderful working relat ionship with all the law
enforcement agencies involved.
That particular call he had requested either Holly Police Depart ment or Oakland County, given the
geographical location. Fro m the time N.O.C.F.A.’s first unit arrived on scene until they were actually able to get to
the patient was 20 minutes. During that time the patient was there with a bullet to the c hest. Fortunately the patient
didn’t hit any vital organs.
He wants to make one thing very clear and stress this: They are not faulting the Michigan State Po lice o r
any law enforcement agency. They’re not critic izing anyone. They understand Michigan State Police are limited on
resources at times given the area they cover and the amount of personnel out at a given time. He has been in conta ct
with Chief Gackstetter fro m the Holly Po lice Depart ment, Lt. Parsons from the state police, and Undersheriff
McCabe fro m Oakland County regarding the issue. They understand that this is no t an attack; the issue simply
Board members have been supplied with appro ximately 30 different documented runs fro m just this year
which indicate either delayed response time or another law enfo rcement agency had to respond in lieu of the state
police. He would like to stress they are not trying to cause conflict with any of the law enforcement agencies. It’s
his responsibility as a fire ch ief to protect not only the citizens of the community, but first and foremost his
personnel. They will not for any reason make a scene unless it’s deemed safe. So metimes that can be critical.
Supervisor Jesse Lambert thanked Chief Lintz for h is presentation.
Trustee Janet Leslie thanked Ch ief Lint z fo r bringing this to the board’s attention. Public safety is a public issue and
there is no one person or one group in the community who can make a decision that is as important as public safety.
She appreciates he took the step to bring it to a public foru m so input fro m the commun ity can be enlisted. It’s very
important when lives are at stake and this is a very professional way for Chief Lintz to go about this.
In this case N.O.C.F.A. waited for the police for 20 minutes. She questio ned whether in Chief Lintz’s line
of work 20 minutes could sometimes be a difference between life and death.
Holly Township Board of Trustees – Minutes of January 20, 2009 Page 3 of 23
Chief Lintz stated nine years ago N.O.C.F.A saw a decline in ambulance response to our citizens t hat were 20
minutes plus. Board members fro m Rose, Groveland and Holly Townships came together and said this is
unacceptable; we have to decrease this time. Therefore, N.O.C.F.A. built an ambulance transport agency as an
added level of service to the fire depart ment for the co mmunit ies. That says, y es, 20 minutes to get to a patient,
especially with critical, life -threatening injuries, is way too much time.
Chief Lintz stated there are some cases that the information they get fro m dispatch determines the kind of
promptness they expect to get out of a law enforcement agency. This particular one played obviously was urgent.
And after dispatch stated the Michigan State Police unit was coming fro m the Oakland County Jail down in Pontiac,
they didn’t know whether the state police were still at the jail and leaving or if they were halfway en route. He
asked either for the County or a Holly Village unit. The d ispatcher chose to call a County unit , and that was fine.
The end result was still a 20 minute response. He is not faulting the County for that; they were coming fro m an
entirely different area.
If the Mich igan State Police are delayed, for whatever reason, many times the state police dispatch or a
trooper will call Ho lly Village Po lice Depart ment, themselves, and say we’ve got an incident up in Ho lly Township,
we’re delayed, can you guys make the scene. That’s fine; he doesn’t care where the law en forcement comes fro m.
Normally the Village police department responds. Occasionally in the outlying areas they get an Oakland County
Sheriff’s unit. The majority of the time if there is a law enforcement agency coming for the state police; it’s the
Holly Po lice Depart ment.
Trustee Leslie questioned whether the incidents Chief Lintz was referring to were only medical emergencies.
Chief Lintz indicated whenever they have large scale car accidents where there are injured people, mu ltip le people,
his resources are focused on getting those people out, treating them, putting a car fire out, whatever. At that point
N.O.C.F.A. relies on police assistance for traffic and crowd control, among other things. A single car accident and
other types of calls, obviously, they need law enforcement out there at some point just to take the report. Those are
types of calls N.O.C.F.A. can handle until law enforce ment gets there.
He recalled a pole barn fire out in Rose Township where a resident was trying to put the fire out with his
garden hose. Chief Lintz was telling the resident to let the fire authority take over and the resident absolutely
refused. The result was the resident needed transportation to the hospital for smo ke inhalation. Those are types of
calls where it ’s not his right to tackle the resident. It’s not in his job description. He wouldn ’t limit it to just EMS
runs; there are other times where law enforcement is needed.
Trustee Leslie questioned whether a delayed response by law enforcement reflected what N.O.C.F.A. could record
as their response time and whether records are kept that reflect the response times of N.O.C.F.A.
Chief Lintz stated with med ical emergencies they have to maintain a six minute response fro m the time they’re
dispatched until they get to the patient. It does have an impact, though he wouldn’t say it’s a crucial impact. He
does want to state that for most of the calls they do have a timely response from the state police.
Supervisor Lambert questioned whether Chief Lintz was taking a proactive or a reactive stan ce when he decided to
present this concern to the community.
Chief Lintz stated he is being proactive. He is in no way, shape or form t rying to solicit any ideas at this point; he’s
simp ly bring ing it to the Board’s attention because it has been happening more frequently. He has spoken with Lt.
Parsons since the conception of this presentation. Lt . Parsons has given some indication there may be changes going
on at the Groveland Post that may solve some of these problems. If that’s the case, then wonderful.
Holly Township Board of Trustees – Minutes of January 20, 2009 Page 4 of 23
Trustee Steve Ruth noted N.O.C.F.A. was notified of the call at 11:44 and arrived at the scene at 11:47. He
questioned how many outcomes of the 29 or 30 examp les would have been different with a more t imely response.
Chief Lintz stated he can’t say that there were any bad outcomes. He doesn’t know of any fatalities that oc curred in
those examp les. If we continue down this road, it’s only a matter of time until there is a bad outcome. He’s taking a
proactive approach to this so there won’t be a bad outcome due to this.
Supervisor Lambert invited Lt. Gary Parsons, Michigan State Police, Groveland Post, to address the board.
Lt. Gary Parsons noted he is the post commander fo r the Groveland Post and also the Metro North Post. The state
police are co mmitted to providing Holly, Rose and Groveland Townships the best possible service they can provide.
They have just received 3 more troopers for the area out of a class of 86. The Michigan State Po lice in Lansing
know this area is in need of troopers. The three new t roopers are in the train ing mode right now, working with a
second officer. As soon as they’re fully trained, they will be out on their own. That will make a s ignificant
The Michigan State Police are the sole provider for law enforcement protection for the three townships
currently, wh ich covers over 100 square miles. There are t imes when they have one or two officers on the road. In
this particular incident they weren’t in the area, they were at the Oakland County Sheriff’s Depart ment trying to get
a prisoner arraigned on an arrest warrant fro m the night before. The subject was arrested on a domestic assault
violence case in Groveland Township. The subject was lodged in the jail. By state law that subject has to be
arraigned within 18 hours ; otherwise the subject is going to get bonded out or be released pending further
investigation. There has to be at least some sort of a bond attached to that so the guy can’t go back home. Their car
was doing that.
When they got the call, they stopped immediately and responded to the call. It ’s approximately 22 miles
fro m the jail to here. On that morn ing the roads were icy, it was 32 degrees, and the weather was very inclement.
The officer did the best she could to get to the scene in 20 minutes.
The state police are not always going to be in a position where they can respond just like that. When
you’ve got 100 square miles and a couple of officers or one officer trying to respond to a scene, depending where
they’re at at that particular time will make a d ifference on how long it takes them to respond. If they’re on the very
far east side of Groveland Township and they have to go to the very far west side of Rose Township, it will take 20
minutes. Is that untimely? It might be. It would be n ice to always be in the right place at the right time , but it’s just
not that way. They try to provide the best possible service they can for what they have.
Trustee Leslie questioned whether the addition of three troopers would include an additional patrol car on the road.
Lt. Parsons stated they will probably just fill the shift, where he would have two cars out fro m 7 to 3. There are two
cars that work fro m 7 to 7 and two more will work 7 at n ight to 7 in the morning. W ith the three additional troopers ,
he will be able to create a schedule where he can utilize those 3 amongst the officers already working a 12. When
they get out on their own, he could probably have three one-man cars working a 12 hour shift and then midnight
there would still be two-man cars because they team up at dark. Then the third guy may work an afternoon shift in
there. It works better with more people.
Trustee Leslie questioned whether full staff was two cars patrolling around the clock.
Lt. Parsons indicated she was correct. They have a car at Metro No rth that works the Auburn Hills area and also one
in Rochester Hills that works with the sheriff’s department. They run calls up and down along I-75 and Springfield
and Independence Township in the Auburn Hills area and the Rochester cars run calls along M-59. Those cars
responded to the call that day. They arrived to the scene within one or two minutes after their first car arrived. They
were d ispatched to the scene. One was at Auburn Hills Police Depart ment and the other one was policing an
Holly Township Board of Trustees – Minutes of January 20, 2009 Page 5 of 23
accident at Sashabaw and I-75. Those two cars helped. Then they have an officer working Pontiac detail fro m the
Metro North Post and also on the Hometown Security Team. It takes away fro m the Groveland team and Metro
North. They do what they can.
Trustee Leslie noted Ch ief Lintz remarked he’s seen an increase in response time over the last year and a half to t wo
years. She questioned whether anything was in place now that would reverse the trend.
Lt. Parsons stated he has discussed with Ch ief Lintz that the proper communicat ion that’s needed isn’t there. When
you get a call to Rose Township or Ho lly Township, it goes to a County 9-1-1. Then the call is directed to their
regional dispatch in Detro it. It’s fast; it’s not nonchalant. Oakland County Dispatch gets the call, they call Detroit;
Detroit calls the state police cars up in the area and the state police respond. Chief Lintz has the state police dispatch
number now. If he runs into a situation where he thinks the police need to be there or get there quicker, then he has
the dispatch number so he can ask their dispatch to request a closer car if they can find one.
Chief Lintz noted N.O.C.F.A. has two different types of radio systems. The State uses an 800 system and
N.O.C.F.A. is still on DHF. The County is changing over all of the emergency agencies in the county to the 800
system but N.O.C.F.A. hasn’t gotten there yet. That will solve some of the problem.
Trustee Ruth questioned whether similar issues were being raised by any other townships.
Lt. Parsons stated this isn’t an issue in other townships. He and Ch ief Lint z have only had one other conversation
probably a year ago in reference to a late response call. Other than that call, this is the only one that’s came up since
then that he’s aware of. He wasn’t aware there were other calls out there.
Trustee Leslie questioned whether it would affect the other two townships if one township decided to make another
choice on law enfo rcement services.
Lt. Parsons stated it would not.
Supervisor Lambert questioned where Lt. Parsons saw crime going in the area 4 years, 8 years, 12 years out and
whether they expected a drastic crime wave increase or something incremental, given unemp loyment and
Lt. Parsons gave the Board of Trustees documentation of crime statistics for the last four years. The crime trend has
been consistent since 2005. In 2005 they handled a total of 3,765 co mplaints; 2006, 3,654 co mp laints; 2007, 3,321
complaints; and 2008, 3,232 co mplaints. In 2005 arrests were 564; 2006, 520; 2007, 360; and 2008, 269. Arrests
are down, but comp laints remain the same. You could interpret that a couple of different ways. It could be less
serious crime is going on in the area or it could be that the arrests have gone down because manpower is down. It
depends on how it’s interpreted.
Supervisor Lambert questioned what the influence of an outside police depart ment with in the state police area o f
service would be. If Ho lly Village Po lice Depart ment beefed up their staff, would that account fo r any correlation
between the amount of arrests going down 250 fro m one year to the next.
Lt. Parsons stated the stats he provided include the Village of Holly. The Village of Holly will have their own
Holly Township Board of Trustees – Minutes of January 20, 2009 Page 6 of 23
Trustee Ruth noted he had heard a statistic the other day from the FBI that actually showed that the number of
violent crimes committed across the country goes down as economic t imes get worse. In the better times it
Undersheriff M ike McCabe, Oakland County Sheriff’s Depart ment, stated there are 14 mun icipalit ies that contract
them to be their police depart ment. City of Rochester Hills is the biggest one with about 70,000 people. There are
60 deputies assigned that are paid for by the City of Rochester Hills taxpayers throug h a police millage and general
fund. The smallest municipality is Royal Oak To wnship down on 8 Mile Road with about 2600 people. They have
three deputies and a sergeant contracted there. They used to have 10. Due to economic problems down there, they
now have a partnership with the state police at the Royal Oak To wnship substation. Their contracted services run
the gamut, with 250 deputies contracted for altogether in those 14 mun icipalit ies.
Many years ago Holly To wnship was part of a three-township agreement; Ho lly, Rose and Springfield
Townships shared sheriff’s deputies out of the Springfield Township substation. In the early 1980s both Holly and
Rose Townships, because of economic issues, declined to continue to participate. At that same time the Oakland
County Board of Co mmissioners made a policy decision that 27 general funded positions of road patrol deputies
patrolling the county would be eliminated and 27 people were laid o ff. He believes that coincides with the
cancellation of the contract with Holly and Rose Townships at the time. They don’t have any general funded
deputies in the county. If the state police aren’t availab le for a call, Oakland County will respond in life-threatening
emergencies. They don’t respond to take a report that your mailbo x has been knocked down or you had a minor
fender bender. They have to pull deputies from either Brandon Township substation, and Brandon Township has a
police millage that pays for those deputies in that substation, or they have to pull somebody fro m Springfield
Township. Deputies there are paid fo r by the residents of Springfield Township. So metimes they have to pull
somebody from Independence Township or fro m Highland Township.
The call the fire chief p layed tonight, Oakland County did respond. They actually sent three cars from
Highland Township. As the chief pointed out and as the lieutenant pointed out, the conditions that day were very,
very poor. He listened to the tapes from their end and their three deputies in three separate cars coming fro m
Highland Township did the best they could to get there as quick as they could. The road con ditions were very, very
bad. You can hear the deputies yell out there’s ice here; watch out, there is a car in the ditch there. Ultimately they
arrived 50 seconds after the state police arrived.
Oakland County is this area’s 9-1-1 d ispatch center for the fire depart ment on a contractual basis and have
been for quite some time now. Holly, Rose and Groveland Townships don’t have their own police depart ment and
don’t contract for police services fro m another municipality or fro m the sheriff’s office. The three townships are
unique in that they rely on the state police. These are the only three townships in Oakland County that are like this.
There are times where M ichigan State Police cars are tied up and the state police have to call Oakland
County Sheriffs or Ho lly Village fo r assistance. It will take so me time to get there. That’s a choice that the
residents and the Township Boards fro m the three Townships have made. That’s a local decision.
Oakland County Sheriff’s Depart ment provides a lot of support services to the three townships. When
there is an arson fire, they have arson detectives, fire investigators that come out and process those scenes for all the
fire depart ments in the county. If there is a major crime scene in the Village, Oakland County provides their crime
lab or their canine unit. They have aviation services they provide. These are support services that are separate from
those basic road patrol services. They don’t have deputies driving around the county saying why we don’t send a
couple of cars up there, nothing better to do than patrol the north end. There are no deputies like that. The Board of
Co mmissioners did away with them with a policy decision in 1982, 1983.
Trustee Leslie questioned what it would cost to contract police services fro m Oakland County Sheriff’s Depart ment.
Undersheriff McCabe stated he would be glad to meet with the Township and discuss their options. They could go
to a shared arrangement like the To wnship used to have with Springfield To wnship. The rates that are set for
contractual services are set by the Oakland County Board of Co mmissioners in conjunction with the Sheriff and
Holly Township Board of Trustees – Minutes of January 20, 2009 Page 7 of 23
Oakland County Executive Brooks Patterson. Those rates were set through the end of 2009. They will reset again
for 2010 and 2011. Normally there is a five-year rate set. At this time there is a one year rate in effect because the
union is in 312 arb itration. They expect the arbitrator’s award sometime probably in May or June. Once that
occurs, they will be able to set the rates for maybe another three or four years after that. He can’t say you need this.
Crime stats need to be looked at; decisions have to be made on what level of service is wanted. They tailor their
services to the individual co mmunity. Ho lly Township is a lot d ifferent than Rochester Hills. You would tailor your
contract to whatever you want and then Oakland County could tell the Township here’s what it would cost.
Ms. Marsha Powers, Holly Village manager, stated she wrote the Holly Township Board a letter back in December
and asked to be on the agenda so discussion could be held regarding what the Township wants for police protection
and what was needed. Her discussion began with the former supervisor Dale Smith back in May that they had an
issue with their depart ment being called out more and mo re because the state police were not availab le. Obviously
this takes their officers who are being paid for by village residents out of the community and into the township
where they don’t have adopted ordinances that allow them to be there. There are liability issues for their patrol
officers, as well as their vehicles. They set a public safety committee work session with their Village Council and
invited the Township to be there. Clerk Winchester was there. Mr. Smith was not available. The Mich igan State
Police came and provided the Village with in formation and answered questions about types of calls that the Village
of Holly was responding to when Michigan State Police weren’t available. The calls have increased over the past
few years. When Chief Gackstetter came on board, it became a concern that the calls were increasing; there again,
taking their o fficers out to the township to answer calls.
After that meeting in September, the calls lessened for a short time. Now they seem to be on the increase
again. That pro mpted Ms . Powers to write the Township Board a letter back in December to say we’ll answer any
questions for you, we’d be g lad to talk to you about contracted services , but we can’t continue to have our officers
out in the Township’s jurisdiction as much as they have been. Chief Gackstetter did put together an order that his
officers are only to go on an officer down call or other life -threatening calls. They will not go out for just a minor
traffic accident, somebody’s mailbo x being hit, a dog being run over. They don’t consider those life-threatening.
That’s what prompted the Village to say discussion needs to be started in regard to what the Township wants to
provide to their residents. Residents from the subdivision to the west stated their address is Holly, Holly is their
police depart ment. But Ho lly is not their police department.
Trustee Ruth questioned whether the order regarding an officer down or other life -threatening call was a policy
change or whether it was always like that.
Chief Gackstetter stated the last order that came out regarding life-threatening issues was in 2000. When he took
over, it had morphed into more than that because they have a tremendous working relationship wit h the Michigan
State Police. They use their facilit ies and they take full advantage of their resources when they need them. After he
became chief, a number of calls were taking place and he felt it was an issue for the Village to at least know the
level of services that were being provided and it sparked a discussion. There has been no change since he came
other than the return to the original order.
Supervisor Lambert questioned when Chief Gackstetter was chief at Pontiac, was there an agreement Pontiac had
with the outlying commun ities in Pontiac for this liability protection when your cruisers and your officers fro m
Pontiac went outside a jurisdiction on mutual aid or on calls.
Chief Gackstetter stated the Oakland County Chief’s Association establishes a mutual aid agreement that law
enforcement agencies work with each other. The police depart ments that are in and around Pontiac are full service
police depart ments, fully staffed. The meaning of mutual aid is when a law enforcement agency gets in a situation
where they need another agency’s help; they will be there for each other. It goes both ways. That is a situat ion they
have with the Michigan State Police. If the state police are not provided the resources they need to do the job, they
Holly Township Board of Trustees – Minutes of January 20, 2009 Page 8 of 23
are put in a very bad position. Because of their good relationsh ip, they will call upon them mo re often than they
would in a normal mutual aid circu mstance.
Supervisor Lambert noted the Village of Holly provided statistics regarding the number of calls the Village
responded to outside the village. They only went through July of 2008 so he doubled the number; it was a little over
a hundred. He also received statistics from Lt. Parsons , as well, on mutual aid or assistance from the state police
going into the village. That number was 103. The way he looks at it, it’s just a wash of numbers. He understands
the Village’s situation that they are crossing boundaries and there is no type of liability coverage for their officers
when they’re sent in.
Chief Gackstetter stated people who live in the village pay state taxes. They’re entit led to that level of service fro m
the Michigan State Police as much as people who live in the township. People in the township do not support the
Village of Holly Po lice Depart ment.
Supervisor Lambert questioned whether there was any sort of cost attached to the liability coverage.
Chief Gackstetter stated if you have a workers’ co mp claim, yes. If someone has died, what is the risk associated
with that? That’s what we’re talking about is not what has occurred, but how do we, as responsible leaders, manage
Trustee Ruth asked if Ho lly Village made a call outside of their jurisdiction and an officer was injured, how the
liab ility issue would work.
Chief Gackstetter stated if his officer responds to a breaking and entering in Ho lly Township and for some horrib le
reason there is a shooting or physical force is used to apprehend the suspect, generally in this litigation prolific
society there is a lawsuit that comes fro m that. The Township would be co mpletely exonerated and not included in
any liability associated with the officer responding to the township residents’ needs. Instead, the Village would bear
the burden of civil litigation and any ultimate pay ment would co me fro m the Village. Their insurance would cover
their officers whether they’re inside or outside the village, as long as they are requested by the Michigan State
Police. The only t ime they have legitimate authority in the township is if their Central Dispatch requests them. The
amount of liab ility would depend on what the insurance coverage is, what the insurance policy covers. Those things
are very co mplicated. It depends on the size of the award. Hopefully this never occurs, but the potential exists.
Trustee Leslie noted Lt. Parsons said the Michigan State Police are not always in a position to respond just like that.
For the Ho lly police and village residents who pay for their services, can Holly police respond just like that?
Chief Gackstetter stated they could not respond just like that all the time. Po lice work is very dynamic and
conditions change all the time. They have acceptable boundaries for a reasonable response and determine what
resources need to be available, what level of train ing and equipment they need to have in order to hit that bracketed
area of response. That’s what the Village has created is a reasonable likelihood that their average response time is
under two minutes. They have a very small jurisdiction, unlike the state police. The responsibility of leaders to
bracket a response level that is satisfactory to them and their co mmunity is the same for everybody.
Clerk Karin Winchester questioned whether, with mutual aid, possible liab ility is the same with their fire depart ment
responding to other communit ies.
Chief Gackstetter stated it was. Agencies have to work together.
Holly Township Board of Trustees – Minutes of January 20, 2009 Page 9 of 23
Trustee Leslie indicated residents have questioned if we contract for police s ervices with the Village, what would it
cost the residents. How can they get to a point where they can at least give residents enough of a ballpark to know
what is being considered.
Ms. Powers stated she can’t give the Township a ballpark until the Township defines what level of service they
want. As an example, the Village has a contract with Ho lly Area Schools. They provide 500 hours of police
protection a year at a fee of $20,000.00. The Township needs to decide whether they want daytime protection,
nighttime p rotection, if they just want an 8-hour shift, 5 days a week. Once the Township decides what level they
want, the Village can tell the Township what the cost would be.
Trustee Ruth questioned whether part of the cost would have added in whatever the increase in liability insurance is.
Ms. Powers stated some factors that could go into the cost are the cost of a vehicle, adding an officer. There are a
lot of variables that go into providing a contracted cost. If the Village were to contract with the Township, there
would be ordinances the Township would have to adopt, including traffic ordinances, to give the Village
Supervisor Lambert questioned if the Township contracted with Oakland County or Holly Village Police
Depart ment a 40-hour shift per week, daytime shift, once that shift is over fro m Ho lly PD or Oakland County
Sheriffs, would the state police then pick up jurisdiction or would it b e some sort of contractual agreement; could
there be a mixture of services.
Lt. Parsons stated the state police will always be there. If Holly To wnship picks up any extra police s ervices, the
Michigan State Police won’t pull out. They run a 40-hour shift and they will be there. The To wnship would have
paid services and also the Michigan State Police patrolling.
2. Public Comment re Police Services
Comments were made by the followi ng people:
Jackie Campbell, 807 Mary Ann
Dave Curt is, 3426 Belford Road
Robert DePalma, Groveland Township Supervisor
Mark Diaz, 896 Riverbed Drive
Walter Flagg, 1269 Grange Hall Road
Mike Gould, 926 Running Brook Drive
Alison Kalcec, Rose Township Supervisor
Larry Lilly, 110 Clarence Street
Mark McHalp ine, 537 Riviera Shores
Laina Mobley, 402 East Road
Tim Seal, 977 River Rock
Jennifer Spear, 868 Deer Run Lake Road
John VanAllman, 260 Valley Stream
I attended the Rose Township meeting. Chief Lint z was there. What I haven’t heard tonight that I’m a
litt le disturbed about – and I believe everyone in the roo m will agree with this sentiment – is thank you to
Holly Township Board of Trustees – Minutes of January 20, 2009 Page 10 of 23
our emergency responders for all the work you do for us. We really appreciate you. (Applause.) Last
week I heard something about best past practice with regard to dispatching people of different jurisdictions
to certain runs. We heard the dispatch tape. The Village was appro ximately 4 miles away, Oakland
County Sheriff’s Depart ment was 13 miles in inclement weather. Could that best past practice be
reevaluated where the dispatcher can make sure we get the closest unit available, no matter what the
jurisdiction might be?
Undersheriff McCabe stated the fire depart ment doesn’t have authority to give the Village of Ho lly
authority to take police action. If the state police had said will you call Holly or if the state police had
called Holly, it would be a different situation. In this particular instance that didn’t occur. The dispatcher
made a decision to call Highland Township units because they believed they could get there fairly quickly.
Unfortunately because of the inclement weather it took longer. It’s a judg ment call by the dispatcher. But,
again, the dispatcher doesn’t have the authority and the fire chief doesn’t have the authority to give Holly
Village police authority in Ho lly Township. That has to come fro m the state police. The state police would
have to ask Holly Village to go out in order to give Ho lly Village the liability coverage they need.
How many square miles are Lt. Parsons’ officers patrolling on a given shift for this particu lar post?
Lt. Parsons indicated the Groveland Post covers between 90 and 100 square miles. There are roughly two
patrol units out during the day shift and possibly one 2-man unit at night.
I co mmend the Oakland County Sheriff’s Depart ment for their response. That was quite a long distance to
cover in that short amount of time. That said, I want what’s best for my association. I would rather have
more police in the area, such as what the village has, rather than solely depending on dispatched units from
the Oakland County Jail or Auburn Hills PD or other units who have a lot of land to cover. Frankly, 10
minutes may not seem like a whole lot of t ime, but 10 minutes in an emergency situation seems like an
eternity. I’m appealing to the Board to please address this issue, weigh out what will be the most cost-
effective, what will benefit the co mmunity more so than not, remembering the township and the village are
essentially synonymous. What happens in the township where you have all this roo m for develop ment is
going to affect the village, as well. By that you would imag ine the Village would be more willing to
compro mise with the Township to provide the police protection that the village is currently getting.
Statistics unfortunately look backward. We are going through economic times right now that I believe
nobody in this room has ever seen, which is probably looking 70 years back to the great depression. I’m
not in law enforcement, but it stands to reason that when people are losing their homes and losing their jobs
and they have less and less at stake within the commun ity, there will be an uptake in crime. Right now we
are really juggling the deck chairs on the Titanic. We’ve got a commendable group of people fro m law
enforcement that are absolutely busting their chops trying to match resident needs with limited resources.
We have a reduction in property taxes because of foreclosures, as well as decreasing home va lues. We
have a reduction in sales tax because people are unable to buy. We have a reduction in payroll tax because
people are losing their jobs. I can’t thin k of a fourth revenue source that supports municipalit ies.
No one in the co mmunity wants to pay more taxes. I moved fro m California. I lived in what I thought
was a small co mmunity with 125,000 people. I never once gave a thought to if I called 9-1-1 I wouldn’t
have three squad cars at my front door. Listening to the tape was without a doubt the most chilling tape I
have ever heard. As time is ticking off, what would it be if it was my wife or one of my children or
grandchildren sitting bleeding out and we’re wait ing for law enforcement to co me so it’s safe for the fire
personnel to actually treat somebody. That’s absolutely unacceptable.
Holly Township Board of Trustees – Minutes of January 20, 2009 Page 11 of 23
There is a tendency for all of us at one time or another to look for somebody to blame and there is
nobody to blame. Everybody here is doing everything they need to do wit hin their limited resources. I
commend the Township for bringing this group together, this is critically impo rtant . The co mmunity needs
to know what it would cost them for the Village of Ho lly to roll out or state police or county sheriff.
Somebody has to pay the bill. And sometimes is sues of liability are downplayed. I co me out of the health
care field, I deal with risk and have my whole career. At the end of the day, the fact that nobody died, the
fact that there was not an untoward outcome does not necessarily mean that the next ca se won’t happen.
The last thing anyone needs, much less a small mun icipal group such as ours, is to suddenly have a million
dollar liability claim that has to be paid because we didn’t have enough foresight or wherewithal to do what
needs to be done. I hope we’ll look at what it will take to put some local police resources in here so that if
anybody at least within the local co mmun ity or within the township needs a police officer, they don’t have
to wait fo r somebody coming down fro m the county jail.
Rose Township Supervisor Alison Kalcec, chairperson of the N.O.C.F.A. Board, stated she would like to
encourage this Board to look at what’s been heard tonight as identification of an issue, a situation. A lot of
informat ion has been received. She would like to see the Townships cooperatively look at fact-finding,
informat ion gathering and options and try to answer these types of questions that Trustee Leslie brought up
and really get strong data to look at what our needs are, what our resources are and how we can provide the
best response with the dollars that we have in our co mmunity -- and if we need more dollars, how can we
do that -- before we make any hard decisions. Several people have said I can’t g ive you that answer until
you tell us what you need. She doesn’t believe specific needs have been identified clearly yet. She would
like the Townships to look back at their history of cooperative fire service for many, many years and how
well it works. Part o f the reason they did that was because the cost of fire service and medical response is
so high that to be able to share it among our commun ities was the only way we could get the quality that
was needed in those services.
She hopes the Townships can get together. Rose Township put together a committee after their
Police Serv ices Presentation to do research, find data and bring it back to their board. She would be happy
to share or work with a co mmittee fro m all of the commun ities and any other law enforcement agency that
wants to look at it with them. She also believes, as elected officials, there is a responsibility to identify
issues like the commun ication problems that Chief Lintz and Lt. Parsons spoke of and find out why these
things are happening and how they can be fixed before we ju mp off the bridge and tell the state police that
that’s not sufficient. It may be. We may just have to work with some kind of shared agreement with the
state police or better co mmunicat ions or better services with the radios. She hopes everyone can work
cooperatively to find out the information and put together the best we can with the dollars that we already
I would like to thank the Board fo r hearing this issue. This has been an issue since the day I moved in,
having our own police protection. The v illage stops on my street four houses away from me. I watch
Village cars turn around and wonder what would happen if there were an emergency. My husband is a
deputy for Oakland County. If he’s not home and I’m alone, I have to wait for the state police. It frightens
me for my kids and residents in my association. I’ve been told this is not an issue in Holly To wnship and I
want everyone to know it is, for me and for almost every resident I have talked to.
I appreciate that the Township will give this well thought out attention at, hopefully, not at a huge
cost to the community. If there is a co mmittee that’s formed, I would like to be part of it because I truly
believe it’s important.
I also want to co mmend the Holly Po lice Depart ment because in many issues they have come and
helped residents and children in the co mmunity when they weren’t supposed to. It means a lot. If we were
to contract services with the County, would that mean the County would hire addit ional people or an ext ra
car and officer, and would that be a sworn officer?
Holly Township Board of Trustees – Minutes of January 20, 2009 Page 12 of 23
Undersheriff McCabe stated the Township or the community needs to decide what level of service they
want, if they want one car 40 hours a week, one car 80 hours a week, two cars on; the cost goes up
incrementally. If a deputy were to be contracted, an additional deputy would be hired. It all depends on
what level of service is requested.
Groveland Township Supervisor Robert DePalma stated all the police and firefighters do a commendable
job. It ’s not easy. Everybody with every mun icipal function in this state is trying to figure out how to keep
things running with less money. He asked Undersheriff McCabe if Oakland County received Public Act
Undersheriff McCabe stated they do.
Mr. DePalma stated one of the ways the state police tries to help cover small townships in the state is
through something called Public Act 416. That means every time they write a speeding ticket in Mich igan,
a piece of that money goes into a 416 fund and then they divv y it up to the counties that help do the
secondary road patrols. Oakland County has gotten that from the very beginning, he believes. He also
believes they’re the largest recipient other than Wayne County.
Undersheriff McCabe stated Oakland County has gone from 15 officers down to 8 since the inception of
the grant because every year the amount of money available has gone down. It does provide for four
deputies on days and four on afternoons to patrol secondary roads throughout the county, high incide nt
areas, of wh ich Holly, Rose and Groveland Township do receive that service. If the municipality’s board
passes a resolution to ask the sheriff to co me in, they do. Every municipality in the county, 62 of them,
have passed that resolution.
Mr. DePalma stated while the three townships may be an anomaly here in Oakland County for not having
our own police depart ments, they’re not in the state. There are 1240 townships in the State of Michigan
and 68 percent of them have not contracted for police services. They rely on the state police. The
overwhelming majo rity of the 862 that don’t have contracted for service are s mall townships like
Groveland, Rose and Holly.
Some of you fro m the Village know this because you’ve looked at going fro m a v illage to a city
and your revenue sharing dollars change. When you’re a city, you get the most in revenue sharing dollars
per person. When you’re a village, you get less than a city. And when you’re a township, you get the least
of all. City of Detro it is about $258.00 or $268.00 for every person who lives there. Groveland gets like
$68.00 or $72.00. So small townships get the least amount of money. He believes the rationale fo r that
originally was the state realized in s mall rural co mmunit ies they were providin g some of the functions that
aren’t normally provided in a big city or a village or any of the larger co mmun ities and they had a bigger
tax base to spread it over. So we get less in revenue sharing but we get something that larger co mmunit ies
don’t get, which is state police service.
Chief Lintz made a co mment that several years ago, and he agrees, we all experienced about a 19
minute average response time on med icals. In the case of a medical, basically you should say goodbye to
the person because they’re not going to be there if it’s a heart attack or something. We had that and we all
started medical services. That’s not because we had a 19 minute run, that’s because we all had average 19
minute runs on every one of them that came in. This particula r case, wh ile it was unfortunate, was a self-
inflicted wound, a suicide attempt. If it was not a suicide attempt, N.O.C.F.A. was there in 3 minutes, in
the next 20 minutes they would have had him in the emergency roo m at Genesys Health Park, or pretty
close to it. It needs to be put in perspective. Nobody likes a situation that doesn’t work right. Lt. Parsons
Holly Township Board of Trustees – Minutes of January 20, 2009 Page 13 of 23
has made it clear he wants to try and make it better. They’ve added three troopers, which as you can
understand with the number they graduate, is a real co mmit ment fro m the State of M ichigan to the area.
And they will make changes on the radios. He is surprised, frankly, that when we ask how many times this
has been brought up, there’s one other time in the last year.
I would like to thank everyone for their service also. I understand the tough times we are all dealing with.
When this discussion was brought up a couple years ago when annexation was an iss ue for our residents
and brought to the attention of former Supervisor Dale Smith, they received a letter fro m Mr. Smith that
gave a response time of about 7 minutes fro m the state police. That was at that point in time. So to hear
with road conditions and things like that it’s up to 20 minutes in this particular case, it might not be all
I’m naïve to think that police services are part of my taxes. I want that. As a resident of this
community, I want that 2 minute kind of response. I have an alarm on my house in case I’m either not in
town or my wife is home alone at night and somebody breaks in. Twenty minutes is not enough. The
community would generally feel maybe five minutes is too long , but maybe that’s a reasonable number.
We need to get a reasonable number o f a response time. If that means that we contract with the
Holly Po lice Depart ment or the Oakland County Sheriff’s Depart ment, we need to look into that, but not
just on an emergency basis, not just in this particular case; a simple thing as a break-in could escalate into
something else. When you’re looking into this , you also need to look at response times for other things
other than these critical issues. I don’t want to pay more taxes but I have no problem paying for mo re taxes
in this type of case. I want that protection and that response time, I want to feel that safety. Two minutes is
quite incredible and we all know that’s probably not something we can live by. But we have to find
something that is reasonable for everybody.
I would like to thank the Michigan State Police for their services to the communit y. I fully believe the
Michigan State Police troopers are co mmitted to the protection and the safety of the citizens of Holly
Township. I am concerned when mention was made of working within resources. That is the key to the
whole situation at hand here. You only have the ability to work within the resources that you are dealt by
the State of Michigan, the number of troopers and personnel the area is staffed with. The voters of Holly
Township and the Holly Towns hip Board of Trustees do not have any say in your resources through the
state level. That is provided solely by the state. The only way the state can increase the level of service
within the state police is to raise taxes statewide. No one is going to go for a statewide tax increase.
I believe it would be in the residents’ best interests to sit down and do their own risk assessment
within their o wn families. Residents have to understand what the risks are for not having immed iate police
response in emergency situations versus the benefit of not having the added costs. If we contract out
services, we have the ability to dictate the level of service, where we don’t currently have that with the state
police. That is a vital piece of the whole pu zzle. I continue to pay my cable b ill for excessive TV when the
cable bill goes up and I would be very wrong to not consider a cost increase for police protection to
decrease response times for the safety of my family.
I was very proud and honored to fight for the special assessment for the village for their police services. I
have heard for many years, since 1973, of the mutual aid between MSP, Village of Ho lly and Oakland
County. I would like to address the people that solely live in the township. I want township residents to
understand police protection is very, very serious, as is safety and security. I feel as though we have it in
What Chief Gackstetter has given the Village as far as safety with the officers, the quality that he
delivers, the technology; I feel we are very, very lucky. We’re state of the art. Thank you Chief
Gackstetter. More than that, Holly Township needs to understand when Village officers go out for mutual
Holly Township Board of Trustees – Minutes of January 20, 2009 Page 14 of 23
aid or by MSP ordering them out, yes, there is liability. But there are other issues. By taking one of Ho lly
Village’s officers out of the village, that’s one less officer that’s there to protect village residents, which
they pay for. People in the village wanted these assets. They pay for them through their millage and their
taxes. Residents in the outer township do not.
Residents who live in the village, even though they pay general taxes within the township, they
pay for their o wn assets. They want to keep their assets. They also want to help the Town ship with their
I live in Ho lly Township, but right across the street is the Village of Holly. On a weekly basis I have to call
the Village of Ho lly because of nuisance across the street. Because of our location, the state police can
only come to their side of the road and the Village to the other side of the road. On a daily basis teenagers
are lighting fires in neighbors’ yards, neighbors who are elderly. On a daily basis we’re concerned because
fires have been set not only in our yard, but in our neighbors’ yards. As a community we all need to stick
together and stop worrying about where the village lines meet. I understand services have to be paid for.
Where do you draw that line? I don’t understand why we can’t all co me together and realize we all need
Lt. Parsons stated if you’re not getting the kind of police service you want fro m the state police, you need
to address your attention to their supervisor, wh ich would be the sergeant. If satisfaction is not met by the
sergeant, then contact Lt. Parsons. Until citizens are satisfied, the Michigan State Po lice aren’t.
I have lived in the township about 15 years. One of the reasons I came to the township is I liked the idea of
small govern ment and a lot of land. I liked the orig inal p lan for the co mmunity when I moved here. That
was kind of butchered up by the last administration. When you give up big government, you give up a few
things, like response time for your fire depart ment or your police department. These are things you have to
live with if you want a certain type of lifestyle.
I’m here tonight to discuss a condition that I feel is deplorable. A tornado went through the area
about 17 months ago. Grange Hall Road now looks like a war zone with uprooted trees, limbs, debris all
over the place. I want to know what the officials of this township have done with regards to approaching
the state about the condition of their land, because most of it’s state land that’s been left in this deplorable
state. Will we have to wait 100 years until everything rots away and goes away naturally, or are there any
rights citizens have to demand a pleasant vista?
I had 300 trees down on my property and it cost about $25,000.00 to grind them up and get them
out of there and to tend to trees that overhung Grange Hall Road and getting the deadwood out of there so
that passersby weren’t endangered, including police, fire and citizens. There should be a comp liance
officer or o mbudsman in the township that residents can come to when they have issues with utilit ies who
neglect their responsibility. There are whole trees ly ing on phone lines. If the line breaks, trees will fall
onto Grange Hall Road. We all know the traffic that road bears every day.
Just prior to the tornado there were about six trees ly ing on a phone line on property immediately
across fro m my driveway. I came into the Township office and spoke to a gentleman whose name I don’t
remember and co mplained, saying they were a danger to the citizenry. I approached the phone company
and the phone company played dumb. The gentleman fro m the Township wrote me a letter saying there is
nothing he can do about it, he did investigate it. The phone company shouldn’t be able to play dumb .
Currently I have a 2 inch lead cable that crosses my property that’s not on an easement that I understand
went fro m Ho lly to Fenton for some reason back in the old days. This thing is not used anymore. It does
have one small thin wire that supplies some of the subs to the east. Since the tornado, there are parts of it
drooping close to the ground. It’s jerked a telephone pole 15 degrees over and there is a hole next to it that
if I stepped in it, I’d snap my ankle o ff. I’ve approached the utility several times. They play dumb as to
whether or not it’s theirs.
Holly Township Board of Trustees – Minutes of January 20, 2009 Page 15 of 23
Approximately a month ago I had two state police officers show up at my ho me at 3:45 AM. I was
asleep on the coach and they banged on the window and finally wo ke me up. They said they received a 9-
1-1 call fro m my ho me. My wife’s an invalid, she had a severe stroke; I wondered if she fell out of bed and
I didn’t hear her so she dialed 9-1-1. I led the officers in. My wife woke up when I flipped the light on and
smiled. I told her they were police officers and they’re here to ensure our safety . A spontaneous 9-1-1 call
went out to the state police and they sent two officers. Talk about a waste of their t ime. When the officers
were leaving, I asked if this happened often. They told me they’re getting more and more of it as
technology increases. They’re putting all this new technology in and letting the old technology lay there
and rot. We don’t need that. These guys have to clean up their act and bury some of those cables and not
leave 2 inch lead cab les drooping across everyone’s property.
The township needs some kind of an o mbudsman to represent the citizenry. I have about 350 feet
along Grange Hall. Workers came in after the tornado and drove their trucks over my septic field. They
chopped down an American chestnut tree, taking one-half of the tree off. They did what they wanted and I
had no control over it. They knocked over 30 feet of my white rail fence so they could bring their trucks in
and they still haven’t paid cent one for the damages. I have nobody to go to in this community that’s a ny
sort of a compliance officer that will contact the utilit ies.
Supervisor Lambert stated Dr. Flagg is in the right place and requested he leave his contact information so
Supervisor Lambert could pursue this himself during normal office hours.
My house was broken into, along with a few other houses along my road. The M ichigan State Po lice had
good response and they did a professional job in regards to the investigation. Townships have decisions to
make, whether their law enforcement services stay the same, what costs they can bear. Zero cost would
provide Michigan State Police services through our taxes. Different costs would be incurred by starting our
own police depart ment, which wou ld be probably the most expensive. There are liabilities, ret irements,
pensions, medical coverage. There’s a whole gamut of services procured by different commun ities in the
area. The Village of Holly costs per citizen are appro ximately $230.00. That’s not per household, that’s
per citizen. I don’t want to pay $230.00 per each resident in my house. That would be a thous and dollars a
year. I don’t know what the answer is, to go with the status quo, carte blanche or a med ian. The t wo
minute response time is absolutely incredible. The v illage has residents close to the village. We have areas
at the far corners of the township that are 10, 15 minutes out. You have to look at the whole of it and make
Great meet ing. First time in ten years I’ve seen a lot of people fro m the Village and Village Council attend.
There are people fro m all over the Ho lly co mmun ity here tonight. We all live in the township, 10,000
residents. We should analyze the resources we have. There is a good police force in Holly and a fantastic
fire authority. It ’s great to see everybody here. To start 2009 this way is positive for the whole Ho lly
community. We do need police s ervices. Everyone who has come here tonight shows they’re interested in
helping the whole co mmunity. Thank you.
Supervisor Lambert thanked everyone for coming and expressed appreciation, indicating a problem has
been identified. It appears the problem is man ifested mainly in the band of higher density population
around the village; people fro m the outlying areas may not be present.
We live further out. I am a deputy with the Oakland County Sheriff Depart ment, canine unit. I am not here
tonight on their behalf; I have been a resident of Holly Township for almost four years. I’ve wo rked with
the Michigan State troopers side by side and some of the Ho lly officers. They’re all great people and they
make do with what they have. We get what we pay for. If we pay for bottom line services, we’ll get a 20
Holly Township Board of Trustees – Minutes of January 20, 2009 Page 16 of 23
minute response time because that’s all that’s available. If we want something better, we have to pay for it.
I’ve seen Fenton Township, Grand Blanc Township and Genesee County come in also. Everybody does
their best to cover the area.
Trustee Leslie stated it may be that those living closer to the village received co mmunication about the meeting
more so than residents in the outlying areas. Maybe we have not heard fro m them yet , but she’s sure they have a
point of view.
Supervisor Lambert stated issues have been raised whether Holly Township will require changes in the level of law
enforcement services they currently receive. There may be areas that need an increased level, while other areas in
the township can remain under state jurisdiction. A determination needs to be made how much co verage the
township needs. In trying economic t imes, cost-effectiveness is an issue concerning how we can get the most
amount of services for the least amount of money.
Right now the Township is in the research and data collection phase. The Township needs to collect as
much data as they can so the decis ion that is ultimately made will be a sound one. The Township needs input from
the community. As a supervisor, he doesn’t want to tell everybody what they can and can’t do. He won’t make
every decision just because he thinks it’s the right one to make. It’s impo rtant to get input from residents. Another
agenda item for tonight is a Town Hall Meet ing. They will use that as a barometer to see who in the co mmunity is
interested or open to the idea of additional police protection.
Trustee Ruth noted more d iscussion is needed, including data gathering. Two minute response time to somebody
just outside the Village is very feasib le. A t wo minute response time to somebody on the north side is probably not.
Clerk Winchester indicated ultimately it will depend on whether residents want to pay for it.
Trustee Leslie suggested forming a public Safety Co mmittee similar to what has been done in Rose Township.
Supervisor Lambert noted Ms. Spear had volunteered to be on the committee.
Mr. Gou ld indicated he would also volunteer to be on the committee.
Clerk Winchester noted usually a co mmittee is set up internally within the Board with public input.
Trustee Leslie suggested selecting possibly two Board members and name township residents as advisors to the
Supervisor Lambert suggested somebody with a strong background in statistics or ac counting would be terrific
because a lot of numerically based research will be done and data reviewed; also, somebody who is familiar with the
community and people in the area to possibly do a house call or interview. The only issue would be the number of
people. That could be hashed out later.
Clerk Winchester stated she would also like to see a survey go out to all the co mmunity to get input fro m everybody.
Supervisor Lambert stated he has been speaking with the Oakland County Assessor. The County will be mailing out
the Board of Review notices soon. He’s trying to piggyback a mailer to be included in that. That could include a
survey so the Township has input from co mmunity residents regarding relevant issues.
Ms. Spear stated she’s able to do numerically based research and data gathering and report to the board to cut
through some of the paperwork so the board can get to the issue.
Holly Township Board of Trustees – Minutes of January 20, 2009 Page 17 of 23
Mr. Gou ld questioned how many residents there were in the township. If there were taxation per un it, how many
units would there be?
Supervisor Lambert stated the estimated population is a litt le above 10,000. That includes the Village of Holly.
Clerk Winchester stated the ratio was 4333 at the mid decade census; 2.68 per household is the average.
Mr. Mark McHalp ine suggested that since it is Ho lly To wnship people who would be paying for police s ervices,
Holly Township people should be on the committee and a geographic spread should be represented.
Trustee Leslie stated she would not have an objection to someone who is a township resident within the village
being on the committee.
Supervisor Lambert stated it’s a community effort and will affect everybody who lives here, village, township, either
way. It may seem to be a township-only issue, but there are residents who will be affected whether it is a direct
effect or not.
Mr. McHalpine stated the village will always have their police department . To wnship residents will be asked to pay
money for a police department. He doesn’t believe somebody who won’t be paying for that should help make a
decision. Reco mmendations could be slanted different ways. Citizens of the township who will be paying for it
should be on the committee determining their o wn fate instead of people who aren’t paying for it making decisions.
Clerk Winchester suggested doing it as a committee of the whole board, with input fro m people who want to give
input within the co mmunity, no matter who they are. It’s important enough the whole Board should be there at all
the meetings. Two people could help with ext ra wo rk, but it’s that important that the whole Board should be
Trustee Ruth agreed.
Supervisor Lambert noted there could be a separate subcommittee that could do the research for the whole Board.
Mr. Joe Hutchins indicated he supports Clerk W inchester’s thoughts. As a committee of the whole, all five elected
officials represent all the people in the township. This is an important enough situation where the Board stands as a
committee of the whole and the Board has the responsibility as elected officials to work through all this with some
community input. Every member of the Board was elected by different members fro m d ifferent areas of the
township. The Board of Trustees is a good cross representation of the township.
Mr. Curtis stated it will take a lot of work and will take the help of volunteers.
Trustee Leslie stated her only objection to creating a committee that involves all five of the Board of Trustees is she
wouldn’t want to limit the number of residents who are able to participate. A finite nu mber should be decided on
that would sit on this committee. If all five Board members are on the co mmittee, would that allow only two
residents to sit on the committee and have a seven member co mmittee? That decision should be made.
Trustee Ruth noted the committee wou ld just be collecting informat ion.
Supervisor Lambert stated doing research and collecting data will ult imately get you to some decision. Once the
data is collected, this research committee will form a conclusion, or several possible conclusions , and present it to
Holly Township Board of Trustees – Minutes of January 20, 2009 Page 18 of 23
the Board of Trustees. Whether or not Board members sit on the committee or a resident, it’s going to get the job
done using logical scientific procedure. He would like to see two people fro m this Board on the research committee.
Trustee Leslie stated that is one option and Clerk Winchester pres ented the option that all five Board members are
on it. She questioned whether there was a consensus.
Supervisor Lambert co mmented all five would be great.
Clerk Winchester stated she believes all five Board members should be there.
Treasurer Mark Freeman co mmented the five members of the Board should be on the committee. If they wanted
input fro m the public, they could get it.
Trustee Ruth suggested starting as a Board, determine what needs to be done and find assistance then. Right now
we don’t even know what the Board would specifically require.
Ms. Spear noted she was volunteering to do what the Board asked her to do, not to come up with her own opin ion.
She has her own opinion, it may serve the community, but she’s saying the Board has enough on their plate. If they
want to tell her go and dig up this number, she can do that. The Board needs to meet to discuss it anyway. She’s
offering to gather facts to aid the Board in their decision.
Mr. Gou ld stated this has been going on for four years that he knows of; one more meeting is not going to kill
anything. Maybe it would behoove you as a group to take a look at all the data you were given fro m the three
collective police agencies and get a sense of volume of incidents and amo unt of runs that came into the township
and the amount of money to convert that to an actual cost that would be b illed for. Then cluster out whether or not
the incidents were local or out near I-75. Once you have a better handle on the scope of the problem, you may be in
a better position to determine what the need is. Right now it seems you’re going back and forth on minutia. At the
next meeting the Board may be in a better position to talk as a group.
Clerk Winchester agreed that a lot of information has been received tonight.
Trustee Ruth stated, as an examp le, there were 100 calls that the Village responded to the township. If it took them
5 hours a piece, that’s 500 hours. Five hundred hours is $20,000.00 according to the school. He doesn’t think that
will solve the problem. There are nine times more calls per person to Village of Ho lly residents than to the
township. There seems to be a density issue. Nine times more calls to the village per capita. Our zone is increasing
but there is a distinct difference.
Trustee Leslie noted if you live in the village and your neighbor is making noise at midnight, you could call the
police and say we have a noise ordinance, there is a disturbance. We don’t have that option in the township because
we don’t have anyone who would enforce our ord inances. The state police do not enforce local o rdinances. If you
had a full-time police force, there wou ld be more calls because you would realize the level of service they’re
providing is more than the level of service we currently have. We would not call the Michigan State Police for a cat
in a tree.
Supervisor Lambert noted something concrete should be decided without gett ing sidetracked. He asked the Board
what type of action they would like to take for the next step, collecting data. A workshop between now and next
month’s meet ing would be spectacular.
Holly Township Board of Trustees – Minutes of January 20, 2009 Page 19 of 23
Treasurer Freeman noted if we reach a point where we decide we want to bid a contract for a certain level of police
protection, it’s going to cost money and it’s going to require a millage; voters are going to have to approve it. If the
voters do not approve it, there will be no millage and there will be no contract.
Treasurer Mark Freeman moved that the B oard of Trustees hol d one to three Police Services
workshops between the January 20, 2009 and February 17, 2009 board meeting s. Clerk Karin
Winchester supported the motion. A voice vote was taken; all those present voted yes; the motion
3. Holly Townshi p Slogan
Supervisor Lambert noted a slogan contest was held last month to involve the community. The slogan would be
used on a broad spectrum of stationary and marketing materials.
Trustee Janet Leslie moved to table Holly Townshi p Slog an pendi ng more public input. Clerk Karin
Winchester supported the motion. A voice vote was taken; all those present voted yes; the motion
4. Board of Review Appointment
Supervisor Lambert stated no applications have been received.
Clerk Karin Winchester moved to postpone the B oard of Review Appoi ntment. Trustee Steve Ruth
supported the moti on. A voice vote was taken; all those present voted yes; the moti on carried.
1. Town Hall Meeting
Supervisor Lambert noted this idea has been a brain child o f several Board members for a while now. He felt it was
important to put it on the agenda given the amount of verbal traffic involving police s ervices. A date could be saved
at Holly High School for the purpose of getting residents’ input. The Town Hall Meet ing would be advertised. It
would be open-ended as to topic, though the main issue would be directed towards police services. He would hope
the high school auditorium would be packed and there would be other issues, as well. Everybody in the township
could be involved, including people fro m the village, to ensure everyone’s needs were considered. It is entirely
feasible to do this at zero cost, provided there is no rental cost for the high school auditoriu m.
Clerk Karin Winchester moved to approve coordinating and setting up a Town Hall Meeti ng for
Holly Townshi p. Trustee Steve Ruth supported the moti on. A voice vote was taken; all those present
voted yes; the moti on carried.
2. Public Rel ations Plan.
3. Public Rel ations Representati ve-Proposed Resolution 2009-01
Supervisor Lambert stated the Board has a public relations packet which includes a quick summary of the general
basics of public relations, including public relations tasks such as contacting media, sending out press releases,
writing of the press releases, any proofreading, any press related matter designated to be performed by a Township
Board member. The purpose of this is to streamline co mmun ication fro m the Board and Township through the
med ia outlets. This could be newspapers, web sites and other avenues. Co mmun ication is a huge issue no matter
what task you’re looking at performing or co mplet ing or what goals you have.
Holly Township Board of Trustees – Minutes of January 20, 2009 Page 20 of 23
Trustee Leslie stated because we’re a five person Board with equal votes, there are times when members of the
med ia may want to speak to any one of the Board me mbers. While it ’s nice to have someone tasked with pro moting
the township and putting information out, when it co mes time for outside sources to seek informat ion fro m Board
members, that shouldn’t be funneled through one individual or according to a plan.
Treasurer Freeman stated there was concern that, come election time, a Board member may want to speak to the
press, questioning whether that would stifle or limit their ability to do that. This is more designed for anything
having to do with the township as a whole. It doesn’t have to do with each member of the Board’s position.
Clerk Winchester stated care should be taken regarding this. It took the whole Board to put together the
communicat ion to the Pulte residents. We want to make sure all Board members are in the loop on those very
important things. Advertising for a Town Hall Meeting wou ldn’t necessarily need to include the whole Board.
There may be specific language needed to identify the types of commun ication to the med ia.
Supervisor La mbert stated as an examp le if Clerk W inchester were to become head of the next stimu lus program
that comes through and would like to speak to the med ia and Mr. Freeman was the media rep, that would be
allo wed. The language does need to be refined. In the future a resolution or budget amend ment could be set up that
would funnel money towards related expenditures. An account like that would fall under marketing pro motions. As
of right now a press release could be typed up and sent to the newspapers and it ’s up to them if they want to publish
it or not.
Trustee Ruth stated a public relations representative is a person. He questioned whether the person would be paid
and why a resolution would be needed. It would just be done as a board member.
Clerk Winchester stated when certain positions within the Township change, the Township should be paying each
person that comes in a salary to do just the statutory duties. If a new board were to co me in, the new board could
say no to decisions made by the previous board. Base salary could start with statutory duties, and then build the
additional salaries with the duties specific people would p ick up. So me would be with compensation and some
would be without. All townships should be considering this. People can come in and say absolutely not, I’m just
doing the statutory duties even though they are being paid for other duties their predecessor had done. The
Township would then have to pay an additional person for the tasks.
Treasurer Freeman noted you’re only obligated to do what’s statutorily required. This proposed resolution can’t say
the township supervisor; it would have to name a person specifically.
Clerk Karin Winchester moved to postpone Public Rel ations Plan and Representati ve pending more
specific language. Trustee Janet Leslie supported the moti on. A voice vote was taken; all those
present voted yes; the motion carried.
4. NSP Coordination.
Supervisor Lambert stated the NSP program is the Neighborhood Stabilization Program. The Federal govern ment
appropriated some money and it was passed down to the state governments. State governments passed it to county
governments and now it’s in the local govern ments’ hands. They appropriated Holly To wnship $427,000.00 for the
program. Right now we’re in the beginning stages of determin ing areas of need where the money is allowed t o be
used and what guidelines are required for using the money to benefit the commun ity. The board packets include a
short synopsis. Discussion has been held regarding using the money for demolition of ho mes in the Ho lly Township
area. Dave Schang, our build ing inspector, has a lot of experience pulling necessary permits, contacting the right
people and dealing with a lot of the clerical work involved in that. One option would be to hire M r. Schang part-
Holly Township Board of Trustees – Minutes of January 20, 2009 Page 21 of 23
time, rather than a contract concerning the NSP program. We don’t know if we will be able to pay Mr. Schang out
of the NSP funds or if it would co me out of the Township general fund. The other option is to hire a p lanning firm
which can get quite pricey and take away fro m the intended benefit of the money. If need be, we do have that
option, or any mix thereof.
Trustee Leslie questioned whether hiring a p lanning company would be by contract with a set fee to ad min ister it; if
an individual were hired, would there be no contract and no set fee to administer it.
Supervisor Lambert noted it would be adding an hourly or salary fee.
Trustee Leslie stated she would prefer spending money when we know exact ly what the amount wou ld be. She
would opt to go with the planning company.
Clerk Winchester stated if we go with a planning co mpany, the contract could be bid out.
Trustee Janet Leslie moved to put the NSP coordi nation to bi d to pl anni ng firms. Clerk Karin
Winchester supported the motion. A voice vote was taken; all those present voted yes; the motion
5. Village Li aison.
Supervisor Lambert stated a Village Council liaison could be appointed, as well as an alternate , to attend Village
Council board meetings. He believes it’s important that a member of the Board attends Village Council meet ings
and vice versa. Co mmun ication issues could be resolved between both governments .
Clerk Karin Winchester moved that Supervisor Jesse Lambert be appoi nted as Holly Village Council
liaison and Trustee J anet Leslie as alternate. Trustee Steve Ruth supported the moti on. A voice vote
was taken; all those present voted yes; the motion carried.
6. Proposed Amendment to Holly Townshi p Code of Ordinances – Mini ng
Supervisor Lambe rt stated approximately a month and a half ago he had a discussion with Groveland Township
Supervisor Robert DePalma regard ing a mining ordinance change. There are several large quarries on the east side
of our township, some of which have been involved in certain act ivities on the Groveland side of their parcels.
Supervisor DePalma notified Supervisor Lambert that ordinances would allo w the Township to prohibit illegal
action going on at those sites, which includes dumping of fill dirt. The concern is that it’s contaminated fill fro m
more urban portions of the state.
Clerk Winchester stated they’re taking materials out and bringing back something that nobody wants and that
shouldn’t be there. It’s a great idea. It is a legality type issue and she wou ld like to see the Township attorney work
with the engineer to co me up with language to add to the mining ordinance.
Treasurer Freeman noted residents have also expressed concerns of contamination of the aquifer and their wells.
Supervisor Lambert stated he lives near the mining areas and understands why this needs to be imp lemented.
Clerk Karin Winchester moved to approve the Townshi p attorney and the Townshi p engineer to
incorporate language needed from the Groveland Townshi p ordinance into Holly To wnshi p’s
ordinance. Trustee Janet Leslie supported the motion. A roll call vote was taken. Ruth: Yes;
Freeman: Yes; Lambert: Yes; Leslie: Yes; Winchester: Yes. The motion carried by a 5/0 vote.
7. Proposed Amendment to Holly Townshi p Code of Ordinances - Overl ay District Text Amendment
Holly Township Board of Trustees – Minutes of January 20, 2009 Page 22 of 23
Clerk Winchester stated the overlay district was adopted recently. The first time use was trie d to be made of it, there
was an issue regarding parking requirements. It currently states up to 40 percent of off-street parking may be
permitted within the front yard. This text amend ment would g ive discretion to the Planning Co mmission. If a
grocery store or anything wants to come in, the current parking requirements would limit uses. This contradicts
what we were t rying to create there.
Treasurer Freeman agreed, stating there may be something unique about an application where the Planning
Co mmission would need discretion.
Clerk Karin Winchester moved to send the Proposed Amendment to Holly Code of Ordinances to the
Planning Commission for a Public Hearing. Supervisor Jesse Lambert supported the motion. A
voice vote was taken; all those present voted yes; the motion carried.
8. Silverman Properties
Clerk Winchester stated she wanted to bring to the Board’s attention that there have been open development
agreements. One criteria was Silverman had to donate two parcels of property. They were originally going to
donate it to North Oakland County Land Conservancy and other organizations. They could never get on the same
page because of a bridge issue on one parcel. The To wnship agreed they would take the parcels because they don’t
have the same liab ility as other organizations. After Silverman quit claimed it, instead of going through the normal
closing process, they just presented the Township with a quit claim deed. Subsequently the Township has learned
Silverman owed back taxes on the parcels. Silverman has been given the opportunity to pay them. They have not
done that. Now the properties are going to tax sale. Clerk W inchester called them last week and said we want you
to pay these taxes; the Township didn’t take it with any contingencies. Silverman to ld her the Township did. That’s
The Board needs to decide whether they want to give them contin gency to say we do want these, pay them
or else, or do you just want them to go back to back taxes. A decision has to be made. It’s a 16 acre parcel and a 4
acre parcel. There is a lot of public use for the area with the bridge. The 16 acres is something that could be
conserved, as well. Taxes are owed to the Township, County and the State of Michigan. Pretty soon the County is
going to take it if taxes are not paid. If it goes up for tax sale, Holly Township has the first right to purchase. She
suggests formally requesting as a Board that Silverman pay the back taxes. It was donated. Silverman took a tax
credit, as well. They had to sign a document showing that they donated the property to Holly Township and took
their tax credit. She believes they have an obligation to pay the back taxes.
Trustee Ruth stated he believes two meetings ago he specifically asked Silverman if there were any back taxes owed
and their representative said they did not owe back taxes.
Supervisor Lambert questioned whether the land would have value to anybody other than Holly To wnship.
Treasurer Freeman noted if the properties were o f any value, Silverman wouldn’t have quitclaimed them. He stated
$17,540.00 was owed on one parcel and $4,120.00 on the second parcel.
Trustee Ruth questioned whether any attorney fees would be added to that.
Clerk Winchester noted the Township can back-charge Silverman’s escrow for attorney fees.
Trustee Steve Ruth moved to send a final notice from the B oard as a whole through the Townshi p
attorney to Silverman regarding back taxes. Clerk Karin Winchester supported the motion. A voice
vote was taken; all those present voted yes; the motion carried.
Holly Township Board of Trustees – Minutes of January 20, 2009 Page 23 of 23
Ms. Val Bouchard, 6224 Belford Road, questioned whether she could receive a copy of the mining ordinance that
was discussed tonight.
Supervisor Lambert stated he could provide a copy of Groveland Township’s mining ord inance to her.
Larry Lilly stated there are serious problems with the min ing operations. They want to rezone the area to light
industry. All they have is a big hole in the ground. He says no way. You have to listen to the people. He’s been
coming to the meetings for ten years. The mining permits are given out without enforcing anything. There should
be an outside engineer consultant going there to check on everything. Nothing is being done. Many people are
suffering over there. The zoning should be changed so it isn’t made light industrial for a b ig hole in the ground.
Ms. Bouchard stated there has been discussion regarding reclamation and helping the land out. But the pits are
getting worse. They’re getting down to the groundwater and contaminating it with bad things. She has pictures.
What they’re doing isn’t good; it has to be stopped. It affects everyone in a 360 degree radius who have wells and
wherever the aquifers run. They could run 50, 100 miles out in a 360 rad ius. You have to stand up for the right
things and make the right decisions. You have to set a precedent for others in the State of Michigan. We should do
what’s honorable and right before God and for our public cit izens so that we can all live in a much cleaner area.
They purchased their dream home when they moved here, believ ing they would never want to move anywhere else.
They wanted to retire here and enjoy life in the country. She now realizes that her prospects for having her dream
home has been corrupted by evil people who only wish to make a profit. This affects us all, affects our children, our
health. People are getting sick, they have these degenerative diseases. Railroad ties with creosote in them are not
supposed to be there.
Supervisor Lambert invited Ms. Bouchard to speak with him following the board meet ing.
Mr. Douglas Arden, 4248 South Dixie Highway, stated beyond the reclamation bonds, the Township needs to look
at the mining operations. They go in, they gouge everything to the property line. When it co mes time for
reclamat ion, there’s no earth there to put back in. It ’s cost prohibitive for them to bring it in. It ’s easier for them to
walk away and leave a damn mess. The Township needs something in the zoning ord inance where adjacent to the
dig areas they have to leave enough earth to generate this 1/3 slope for reclamation otherwise we’re go ing to be
stuck with these terrible messes. Where is the earth going to come fro m to create the slope?
Supervisor Lambert noted it would be a cost burden for anybody who wants to purchase the land in the future.
Mr. Douglas Arden noted the min ing operations are going to bring in contaminated earth, but they won’t bring in
any clean fill.
Adjournment: Supervisor Jesse Lambert, hearing no other business, adjourned the meeting at 9:53 PM .
Zo Turner, Recording Secretary
Karin Winchester, CM C
Holly Township Clerk