Chat room transcript of the 21 December 2009 BlogTalkRadio show, The Law Librarian, “Year in Review” Mary Alice Baisch, Tracy Thompson Pryzlucki, Connie Crosby, Roger Skalbeck, Jason Eiseman, Sarah Glassmeyer, Marcia Dority Baker and me *** (10:43:35):Welcome to the Richard Leiter Chat Room. Marcia Dority Baker says (10:58:00): Hi everyone, welcome to today's show. weblawlib says to (10:58:46): Just settling in. Getting notes together for the day's show. conniecrosby says to (11:02:43): Welcome everyone! Meg Kribble says to (11:02:57): Actually able to listen today! Sarah Glassmeyer says to (11:03:18): #coolkids represent! weblawlib says to (11:03:20): Hey Meg, glad you can join us (-‐ Roger) Sarah Glassmeyer says to (11:03:22): :P Meg Kribble says to (11:03:49): : ) conniecrosby says to (11:03:51): Hi Meg, Ken, Merle...wow, lots of friends! Ken Hirsh says to (11:04:01): Hi Connie. conniecrosby says to (11:04:03): Welcome everyone. We've got lots to discuss today. merleslyhoff says to (11:04:15): Hi all. Tracy LTP says to (11:04:16): Hi all! Susanna Leers says to (11:04:30): Hi guys! Marcia Dority Baker says (11:04:31): #tllbtr on Twitter conniecrosby says to (11:04:42): Hi folks! Susanna Leers says to (11:05:36): Multitasking. conniecrosby says to (11:05:36): http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/publications/durhamstatement Ken Hirsh says to (11:06:32): My thoughts on the Durham Statement are at http://ipsofacto.kenhirshonline.com/ 2009/07/14/on-‐the-‐durham-‐statement/ Ken Hirsh says to (11:07:00): Do we have agreement on an "open source, stable, digital format? merleslyhoff says to (11:07:17): Have libraries been promoting it to their law reviews that aren't online? Ken Hirsh says to (11:07:50): I presented it to our faculty, where there was a mixed reception with plenty of skepticism. I have not yet approached the review yet. Marcia Dority Baker says (11:09:16): First Friday of February: show on Durham Statement "happy birthday" Marcia Dority Baker says (11:09:45): http://scholar.google.com/ Susanna Leers says to (11:10:24): I've spoken with our Univ. Digital initiative and they are rarin' to go but I have hoops to jump through at the law school. Ken Hirsh says to (11:11:28): Sarah, I wonder whether we could be that concerned about layperson's used of Google Scholar. Maybe it would persuade them they should see an attorney. Marcia Dority Baker says (11:12:33): For more info on Google Scholar, listen to the December 4th show with special guest Anurag Acharya for Google. Ken Hirsh says to (11:13:15): Rich, no doubt both the algorithms and the database contents are very different between GS and Westlaw. weblawlib says to (11:13:41): Good point ken. It's maybe like a person who wants to invent something and searches through patents ... a little bit of exposure should show an average user that a legal expert is needed. Ken Hirsh says to (11:14:53): Internal consistency, yes. But not across. Otherwise, why bother with a Lexis and a Westlaw? merleslyhoff says to (11:15:13): But most "average users" would just stop with GS and think they've found "everything." Ken Hirsh says to (11:15:46): Merle, I don't think an "average user" wants more than the basics. Everything is not a goal. Richard Leiter says to (11:16:05): Absolutely right, Ken. But shouldn't they the produce similar results? merleslyhoff says to (11:16:07): I had a conversation with a faculty member here who expressed concern over cites to GS and GS Legal. Ken Hirsh says to (11:16:26): Rich, only if they have the same purpose AND audience. merleslyhoff says to (11:16:53): Ken, I agree but folks are saying the GS search will cause "avergae users" to consult an expert. Ken Hirsh says to (11:17:05): Merle, My pont as well. weblawlib says to (11:17:33): To me, it almost seems like Google thinks of cases as an interesting literary genre. Ken Hirsh says to (11:17:51): Google Scholar, by definition, is for scholarly research. Weblawlib is exactly right. merleslyhoff says to (11:18:10): Did we ever find out if lawyers are law librarians are involved with GS Legal indexing? merleslyhoff says to (11:18:22): Thatw as "or" law librarians. Sorry. weblawlib says to (11:19:04): Wonder if complaints are that we're seeking features that aren't there (filter, focus), or that we don't understand the system just yet -‐-‐ is it like with Gmail, where people (like me) didn't "get it" at first? Marcia Dority Baker says (11:19:09): http://ersa.jud.ct.gov/lawlibnews/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?ID=999 Conn Law Libraries closing Ken Hirsh says to (11:19:39): Best solution to GS: AALL should buy ads on Google that give links to law librarian info pages on their GS legal results. Marcia Dority Baker says (11:19:56): Google Scholar has three people working on it, none are laywers, per AA. weblawlib says to (11:20:36): Yes, but Rick Klau (U. RIchmond law graduate) has consulted with them on the project. merleslyhoff says to (11:21:03): Thanks, Marcia. couldn't remember if that came up during his chat. conniecrosby says to (11:21:28): Cool idea, Ken :) Marcia Dority Baker says (11:21:57): http://tins.rklau.com/2009/11/us-‐caselaw-‐in-‐google-‐scholar.html Klau's blog entry on GS. Ken Hirsh says to (11:22:51): Wikipedia, not an algorithm, but "widom of the masses." Gogle, secret algorithms that define relevance by looking at link-‐backs and hits. Ken Hirsh says to (11:23:01): Boy, my keyboard is flaky jasoneiseman says to (11:24:27): Ken, wikipedia maybe not an algorithm. But a curated collection -‐ curation of information generally becoming more popular and important i think Marcia Dority Baker says (11:24:46): http://resource.org/law.gov/ Ken Hirsh says to (11:24:56): Jason, you are right. And it is in the sunshine -‐ you can check history of and authors of revisions. Marcia Dority Baker says (11:25:32): Trust the gov't or Google? Ken Hirsh says to (11:25:47): Let's not sound too much like Glenn Beck, please. weblawlib says to (11:26:12): google partnering with USPTO: http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/11/unlikely-‐group-‐ working-‐happily.html weblawlib says to (11:26:35): Ken-‐ Trying to avoid any beckisms as much as possible... (-‐ roger) conniecrosby says to (11:27:18): "In Google We Trust" Marcia Dority Baker says (11:27:51): Google: free & quick per Rich Leiter Tory Trotta says to (11:27:56): the way i understand law.gov, their impetus is to provide access to public info for free. the government is commited to providing permanent public access/archival services. gotta push for the latter principle. Tory Trotta says to (11:29:32): I like having google scholar as a resource. but they are a bit misleading when it comes to what users can expect to be there. Ken Hirsh says to (11:30:20): "Caveat Google!" weblawlib says to (11:30:40): Know of a good project or person promoting access to government information? Nominate them here: http://www.aallnet.org/about/award_information.asp or here: http://www.aallnet.org/about/award_oakley.asp conniecrosby says to (11:33:44): I am waiting to open my Google bank account. Ken Hirsh says to (11:34:00): Sarah: http://www.google.org/ Tory Trotta says to (11:34:29): Don't we already know that Google is going to license their database to universities? and with a $75K machine, we will be able to get 'cheap' copies? Sarah Glassmeyer says to (11:35:19): Ah, yes, Ken! I have seen google.org before but forgot about it. So maybe they can put the law stuff under hat umbrella. weblawlib says to (11:36:18): law librarian of congress press release: http://www.loc.gov/today/pr/ 2009/09-‐157.html conniecrosby says to (11:37:26): Vision for the Law Library (PDF): http://www.loc.gov/law/news/LL%20Vision.pdf Marcia Dority Baker says (11:39:30): http://www.gale.cengage.com/DigitalCollections/products/ModernLaw/quick.htm conniecrosby says to (11:41:23): Stephen Abrams announcement: http://stephenslighthouse.sirsidynix.com/ archives/2009/12/endings_and_new.html Larry Meyer says to (11:42:04): Century of Lawmaking, mentioned by Mary Alice (one of my favorite sites!): http:// memory.loc.gov/ammem/amlaw/ weblawlib says to (11:45:15): Can anybody point to success stories for Making of Modern Law? We all think we want it, and it looks really cool. But what are some examples of people who used it? To me, it's so far mostly a theoretical need, not a proven requirement. SaraSampson says to (11:45:51): We have patrons that want MOML titles quite frequently here at Georgetown Law weblawlib says to (11:45:55): I want to see new scholarship and analysis that wouldn't have been possible without this vast collection of full-‐text old stuff Tracy LTP says to (11:46:12): The components are not cross-‐searchable. Missed opportunity for Gale. SaraSampson says to (11:47:26): I know that at least 2 of our students have written papers on the history of class action based upon MOML research. I don't know if its been published, though. Marcia Dority Baker says (11:48:19): The good, the bad of Intelliconnect? Ken Hirsh says to (11:48:30): Intelliconnect = New Coke? conniecrosby says to (11:48:50): rolling out before fully cooked -‐ that is the trend in software development sarak1015 says to (11:48:55): We do have someone at Gtown main campus who has been using the Supreme Court Records and Briefs for research, but I'm not sure exactly how. I helped his research assistant with it once. conniecrosby says to (11:49:59): http://legalresearchplus.com/2009/06/19/bloomberg-‐law-‐on-‐the-‐web-‐an-‐early-‐ review/ conniecrosby says to (11:50:51): https://www.bloomberglaw.com/ merleslyhoff says to (11:51:44): Bloomberg had many law librarians, attorneys and focus groups that spent much time working on new interface, etc. conniecrosby says to (11:51:49): http://twitter.com/BloombergLaw weblawlib says to (11:52:32): http://www.alistapart.com/articles/indefenseofeyecandy merleslyhoff says to (11:52:38): It will be intersting to see how students accept it once it's open to students. Currently in beta so not open to all students. merleslyhoff says to (11:54:03): The law component doesn't give access to everything availbale in old bloomberg. merleslyhoff says to (11:54:14): B-‐unit for access in "old" days. Ken Hirsh says to (11:54:55): But it was great for day traders, right? merleslyhoff says to (11:55:19): They still ahve to use the B-‐unit. merleslyhoff says to (11:55:46): Bloomberg doesn't have pdfs!!! We've raised this with them many times. merleslyhoff says to (11:57:09): Their strong point is the inmtegration with the business side Ken Hirsh says to (11:59:12): Sidenote on name change: When I attended, school at FSU was School of Library and Information Studies. Later it became School of Information. After it merged with College of Communications, the college is of Communications and Information but th Marcia Dority Baker says (11:59:16): http://www.libraryjournal.com/article/CA6711116.html Ken Hirsh says to (11:59:22): school has resumed name of SLIS. Ken Hirsh says to (12:00:07): SLA proposed name would have had no real identity. Tracy LTP says to (12:00:13): http://www.slaalignmentportal.org/blog/association-‐strategic-‐knowledge-‐ professionals-‐poor-‐choice-‐name weblawlib says to (12:00:42): http://conniecrosby.blogspot.com/2009/11/association-‐for-‐strategic-‐ knowledge.html Susanna Leers says to (12:01:39): I think The Alignment sounds a little weird, too. Ken Hirsh says to (12:02:19): Demeans "tactical knowledge." Tracy LTP says to (12:02:27): The economy is driving so much of everything we're discussing. weblawlib says to (12:02:33): Term Limits: A Profession Ponders its Name -‐ http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/ wc/2097/ (haven't read it in depth) Ken Hirsh says to (12:02:59): Why replace one less-‐than-‐ideal name with another one? conniecrosby says to (12:03:19): http://wiki.sla.org/display/align/SLA+Name+Change Susanna Leers says to (12:04:30): Meanwhile WL lays off 240... conniecrosby says to (12:04:39): That link not working. Try this: http://www.sla.org/content/SLA/governance/ namechange/index.cfm Tracy LTP says to (12:05:22): the end-‐run strategy Marcia Dority Baker says (12:05:51): http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/law_librarian_blog/2009/12/the-‐lexis-‐ letter.html Susanna Leers says to (12:07:11): Missed that one! Sarah Glassmeyer says to (12:07:41): http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ law_firm_trades_library_for_xmas_shop_employs_all_hands_on_sales_floor/ conniecrosby says to (12:07:43): http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hotstories/6774194.html Ken Hirsh says to (12:07:48): http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ law_firm_trades_library_for_xmas_shop_employs_all_hands_on_sales_floor/ merleslyhoff says to (12:08:27): Free legal advice with every purchase over $50.00! Ken Hirsh says to (12:08:39): The firm did not have a librarian. merleslyhoff says to (12:08:52): But the advice comes from GS Legal :P Ken Hirsh says to (12:09:22): Ohio is implementing a law that puts county law libraries under the control of the county, instead of non-‐profit associations. Tory Trotta says to (12:09:35): my reading of the article was that , indeed, they didn't need the space for the library, as everything was online. Not that they didn't have or didnt need the service. Marcia Dority Baker says (12:13:49): http://www.aallnet.org/about/award_oakley.asp Marcia Dority Baker says (12:16:05): Predictions for 2010 Marcia Dority Baker says (12:17:13): new digitalized collection but buy into their platform & new interface change to a product -‐ will throw everyone in the air -‐ Roger conniecrosby says to (12:17:34): Big predictions! I love it. Tory Trotta says to (12:18:03): Fascinating! Guess we can't have too long a period without a major professional uproar!! Ken Hirsh says to (12:18:07): Don't forget to review these at next year's year-‐end show. weblawlib says to (12:18:32): Rich will keep the transcript and we'll look back to see how we did. Ken Hirsh says to (12:18:43): Connie -‐ will it be the Gphone? Susanna Leers says to (12:19:24): Foursquare is definitely up and coming. conniecrosby says to (12:19:32): i don't know Marcia Dority Baker says (12:19:39): Connie: more mobile tech, geo apps http://foursquare.com/ weblawlib says to (12:19:45): For the record, here's my second prediction: there will be a game-‐changing interface change to an existing legal information service that upsets people tremendously at first but really works well when it's done. Tory Trotta says to (12:20:11): can't hear!! conniecrosby says to (12:20:27): anyone else having a problem hearing? Tory Trotta says to (12:20:42): i can hear Rich and Connie but Roger is fading. Marcia Dority Baker says (12:21:01): everything old is new again, -‐ Tracy Ken Hirsh says to (12:21:45): My prediction: Karaoke night attendance will return to more typical levels. weblawlib says to (12:21:58): Is it the phenomenon something like retrofuturism? conniecrosby says to (12:22:02): No, no, bigger Karaoke with Ken! weblawlib says to (12:22:33): More karaoke. Ken and I could do a bi-‐lingual mac the knife duet. You game ken? (-‐ Roger) Ken Hirsh says to (12:22:44): Rich: Perhaps we are at a synergy tipping point. Susanna Leers says to (12:22:55): What other language? Ken Hirsh says to (12:23:10): Deutsche, of course. weblawlib says to (12:23:17): Ja wohl. Ken Hirsh says to (12:23:36): It's the source language for Brecht's Three-‐Penny Opera. weblawlib says to (12:25:07): My hope for the future: The seamntic web comes to legal information. -‐-‐ providing an opening for add-‐on tools for existing legal information. Give context to content online so my browser can recognize a legal cite as more than characters Ken Hirsh says to (12:25:17): Mary Alice: Can it be instituionalized enough to avoid a future adminitration's attempt at roll-‐back? Marcia Dority Baker says (12:25:47): Sarah: use phone as a tool more, apps & mobile computing Ken Hirsh says to (12:27:06): Non-‐verbal searching! Marcia Dority Baker says (12:27:18): Search paradigms, Google goggles weblawlib says to (12:27:44): What about gesture-‐based searching? Wii, Microsoft's Project Natal, etc. weblawlib says to (12:28:08): http://www.google.com/mobile/goggles/ Marcia Dority Baker says (12:28:47): http://picasa.google.com/mac/ conniecrosby says to (12:29:11): Vote for your favourite Canadian law blogs! See: http://www.clawbies.ca/ Susanna Leers says to (12:29:11): Can it recognize a tort when it sees it? Marcia Dority Baker says (12:29:28): Rich: public information per workshops (law.gov) Ken Hirsh says to (12:29:34): How about a torte? conniecrosby says to (12:29:42): chocolate torte? Ken Hirsh says to (12:29:47): MMMMMM. Marcia Dority Baker says (12:30:10): The show's transcript will be posted sometime today. conniecrosby says to (12:30:12): Hey, I think he got all of us! Tracy LTP says to (12:30:18): happy holidays! merleslyhoff says to (12:30:20): Happy holidays to all! Marcia Dority Baker says (12:30:24): Thank you everyone, travel safe over the holidays! Ken Hirsh says to (12:30:34): Ditto to all of you. Tory Trotta says to (12:30:39): Great show Rich and everyone! Thank you. conniecrosby says to (12:31:07): A lot of fun! Marcia Dority Baker says (12:31:35): Good bye. conniecrosby says to (12:31:37): Thank you to everyone who joined us in the chat room. conniecrosby says to (12:31:40): Have a great holiday!
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