Re: Honda Generator Circuit Breaker Replacement?
Re: Honda Generator Circuit Breaker Replacement?
Source: http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Misc/misc.rural/2005−11/msg00440.html
• From: Sheldon Harper • Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 23:15:48 −0500 Neon John wrote in news:andnn11gmojqcjqgh86rkubfj0tkpmhdb2@xxxxxxx: > On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 14:00:26 −0500, Sheldon Harper > wrote: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GFCI >>Don't rely on wikipedia articles as the final word. Clearly part of >>that wikipedia entry was written by an idiot. It happens here and >>there in wikipedia. I expect that this entry will eventually be >>corrected. As you know there is no formal review of information >>by a qualified reviewer. It is a voluntary system entirely. >>This page isn't 100% correct for all circumstances but is a much >>better presentation than the one you cited and suitably describes >>most residential applications. >>http://www.codecheck.com/gfci_principal.htm > Amazing, Sheldon. You claim the Wiki author is an "idiot" and then > you reference another article that says essentially the same thing. Dear John, "Essentially the same thing" is *not* the same thing. Here's the offensive text in the wikipedia entry: "One might more properly call the device a Balance Fault Interrupter (BFI), rather than GFI, because it will trip if current, for example, leaks to or from another circuit such as either the "hot" or "cold" side of a nearby 12 volt DC renewable energy system, or a nearby ethernet jack, etc." A reasonable scan of the article I've presented doesn't repeat this sort of error. > The Wiki author is obviously writing from a British perspective (clues Re: Honda Generator Circuit Breaker Replacement? 1
Re: Honda Generator Circuit Breaker Replacement? > abound − even you can find 'em.) but other than minor details, their > GFIs work just like ours. Your sarcasm is apparently a signal of your purpose in making your reply. The Brits also make extensive use of ring circuits in homes so they're prone to really wierd loop type currents. Each of their appliances has a plug on the power cord that has a fuse, or fuses, in the plug itself. > If you'd read Sam's page instead of just referencing it, you'd have > seen the National Semi data sheet for the LM1851 chip, the one used in > every GFI I've ever examined. Yet more misdirected sarcasm. >>Every "fault" requires a return path, and the ONLY imbalanced current >>available is through a ground path because that's the only thing that >>isn't measured for "balance" in a GFCI protected system. If the system >>is not grounded in any other way I can stand barefoot in water and hang >>on to the live wire or the neutral all day long with no ill effects. >>OTOH if you connect an ungrounded system to something that is grounded >>in more than one way the entire scenario changes. >>AFAIC a GFCI circuit breaker doesn't belong on an ungrounded portable >>generator as it serves no useful purpose. > Wrong. A significant shock path exists from one device to another if > one has a fault and the other had the ground and neutrals connected > together. A common situation for older stoves and clothes dryers. In > that instance, current flows from the fault to the chassis, through > the victim and back to neutral through the second device. A GFI WILL > trip in that instance IFF it is located at the outlet for the faulted > device. Well we're talking about a Honda portable generator which doesn't support running electric stoves and electric clothes dryers with the neutral and the ground bonded. So this tidbit does not apply to either OP's or my discussion. > This hazard is why I forcefully advice against GFIs anywhere except at > the point of use. Branch or room GFIs will not protect against this > kind of fault. Not directly applicable to this generator problem but > too important a concept to allow to go unaddressed. Once again this does not apply to the discussion about Honda portable generators but you're obviously free to address your personal issues some of which fly in the face of the National Electrical Code. >>I have never seen a GFCI >>breaker on any portable generator (having owned several, including one >>presently, and having looked at many over the years.)
Re: Honda Generator Circuit Breaker Replacement?
2
Re: Honda Generator Circuit Breaker Replacement? > Ya outta get out more. Yet more misdirected sarcasm. > Example: > http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=8771&R=8771 It complies with OSHA requirements for construction sites and still does not have a GFCI circuit breaker. Did you read my statement above as well as the web page you referenced? Did you read my article in which I proposed the use of GFCI receptacles if one insisted on having that sort of protection? In fact here's what you snipped out! "If you're running 120V loads and insist on having GFCI protection I would install a GFCI receptacle in the circuit because I can buy those all day long for less than $10 each. At the moment Harbor Freight has them for less than $5." " http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=43756 " > More and more construction−oriented generators are getting these > things. A mis−application, true, but they're there nonetheless. As I closed my article (which you also snipped out) "Of course OSHA would have a conniption fit......" >>As far as OP's complaint about the high price of his circuit breaker >>goes I suggest you look at what all the parts to build your car >>cost, and then when it adds up to some multiple of the purchase >>price for an assembled car and you realize that all you got for the >>money is a heap of parts. >>There are a number of big name manufacturers who assure that generic >>parts will not fit their products. That is a business tactic. Then >>they make certain that the earliest failing parts are significantly >>overpriced, enticing the customer to buy another new unit instead >>of repairing the one they have. Heck the customer is already in the >>dealer's facility (seeking repairs) where the new units are on display. > Irrelevant to this discussion. Strange you dismiss the statement and then in the next breath go on to agree with the essence: > This guy has a Honda and Honda is > famous for raping their customers for spare parts. Re: Honda Generator Circuit Breaker Replacement? 3
Re: Honda Generator Circuit Breaker Replacement? The real reason Honda makes replacement parts so expensive is to entice owners of failed units to buy a new unit instead of repairing their already owned one. It works rather well actually. > To the original question, > Panel mount circuit breakers are available from all the usual breaker > makers. Still more expensive than making your own. > Here's a photo of one that I made: > http://www.johngsbbq.com/Deep_linked/circuit_breaker.jpg You made an attachment, not a circuit breaker. > This is a conventional universal fit circuit breaker like you get at > Lowe's or whatever, with a copper cable lug inserted into the prongs > that normally grip the panel lug and epoxied in place. This provides > a wire terminal for both the input and output. When I use a portable generator it is because I am already in a backup power situation or because I am at a remote location. I'm not going to homebrew around something as inexpensive as a panel and a matching circuit breaker with the attendant risks of failure. See links below. > the copper cable lug adapter is also available at Lowe's. You should > be able to make a 2 pole 240 volt breaker for under $20. You can > attach it to the panel using plumber's straping or fabricate a custom > clamp. Sheesh. Make a clamp or some other nasty mounting on a gasoline driven generator which vibrates steadily during use. Buy these locally: http://tinyurl.com/apoxu and http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/14−340−20−amp−double.aspx And I can get a better price buying locally in northern Wisconsin. I'll spend $28 for a secure unit against your $20 homebrew every day of the week and twice on Sundays. .
• Follow−Ups: ♦ Re: Honda Generator Circuit Breaker Replacement? ◊ From: Brock Ulfsen Re: Honda Generator Circuit Breaker Replacement? 4
Re: Honda Generator Circuit Breaker Replacement? ♦ Re: Honda Generator Circuit Breaker Replacement? ◊ From: Neon John • References: ♦ Honda Generator Circuit Breaker Replacement? ◊ From: Wiliam Schnabel ♦ Re: Honda Generator Circuit Breaker Replacement? ◊ From: Sheldon Harper ♦ Re: Honda Generator Circuit Breaker Replacement? ◊ From: bobadk ♦ Re: Honda Generator Circuit Breaker Replacement? ◊ From: Sheldon Harper ♦ Re: Honda Generator Circuit Breaker Replacement? ◊ From: Dean Hoffman ♦ Re: Honda Generator Circuit Breaker Replacement? ◊ From: Sheldon Harper ♦ Re: Honda Generator Circuit Breaker Replacement? ◊ From: Neon John • Prev by Date: Re: Why do we park manual tranny vehicles in reverse? • Next by Date: Re: Why do we park manual tranny vehicles in reverse? • Previous by thread: Re: Honda Generator Circuit Breaker Replacement? • Next by thread: Re: Honda Generator Circuit Breaker Replacement? • Index(es): ♦ Date ♦ Thread
Re: Honda Generator Circuit Breaker Replacement?
5