Transcription of … by fjwuxn



                           Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006 Transcript

Presented by Mat Fraser and Liz Carr

[Big Ben Chiming]


LIZ:         Yeahhhhhh, we‟re back, we‟re back. Mat, we‟re back.

MAT:         Dud, der, der, it‟s so good to be back.

LIZ:         Oh, hello. Yes!

MAT:         Oh, we made it.

LIZ:         We got back on the air.

MAT:         Now we can‟t really dodge the issue of the old Podcast ending and then not
             ending, and then all that, sort of, stuff, but don‟t worry listeners, we‟ll explain
             that as briefly as possible a little bit later.

LIZ:         Yeah, and we‟re gonna be reading some of your emails, looking at the
             message board, all about that.

MAT:         Hmmm, they were fantastic as well. And this week we‟ve got – this month,
             rather, we‟ve got two, that‟s two, quizzes. Here‟s a teaser for one of them.

                                           Page 1 of 86

                             Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

PETER:         I‟m Peter White, the BBC‟s Disability Affairs Correspondent; can you guess
               what‟s going on in my head?

MAT:           Hmmm, well we‟ll find all about what that‟s about in around 15 minutes, so
               stay listening.

LIZ:           Oh, our other mainstay quiz Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable returns; like us
               it will not die! Plus, take a listen to this.

Go on Glib, you can do it.
Well, talk to the flipper, „cause the face don‟t care…

LIZ:           Mat!

MAT:           Sounds familiar!

LIZ:           Oh, god, if he‟s not talking about thalidomide, you‟ve got his music on. Yeah,
               we‟ll be listening to that later on, but we‟ve also got much disability

MAT:           Oh, good.

LIZ:           And look who‟s here.

MAT:           Ah.

LIZ:           Oh, it‟s a favourite feller from Front Magazine, old crap eyes himself, Rob

ROB:           You say the nicest things.

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                     Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:   Ah, thank you. Yeah, we‟ll be back to you later, Rob.

MAT:   So, what have you been up to?

LIZ:   Well, it‟s been years since we were together, isn‟t it?

MAT:   Hmmm, I know. The last time I saw you I was, as we know, on tour with
       Thalidomide, the Musical, but I‟ve now finished that; it‟s over. I‟m actually
       gonna be doing the DVD, so, you know, hopefully I‟ll be able to plug that in a
       couple of Podcasts time.

LIZ:   Okey dokey.

MAT:   But…

LIZ:   And we‟ve got the music at the end, but!

MAT:   Indeed. One of the things I just wanted to say though is, on my travels I went
       to Cardiff.

LIZ:   Nice.

MAT:   Now, there were an awful…

LIZ:   How were the Welsh?

MAT:   Well, very disabled, in my experience. Quite a lot of them are really quite
       profoundly disabled.

LIZ:   Hmmm.

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                      Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:   And it‟s the – obviously one could go and make lots of jokes about the scars
       down the shins from their wellies, from the back legs of the sheep, and all of
       that.   I‟m not gonna do that kind of thing, „cause I‟m not interested in
       denigrating the Welsh. They‟re wonderful…

LIZ:   It‟s not actually very funny either that, really, is it?

MAT:   No, and they‟re wonderful, good working class, honest people.

LIZ:   Yeah.

MAT:   Cardiff Arts Disability Cymru, thank you for treating me so well.

LIZ:   That‟s nice.

MAT:   That‟s it.

LIZ:   Your own personal little plug show now.

MAT:   No, it‟s just that – what it was, I just – I saw lots of people interacting with
       each other, disabled and non-disabled.

LIZ:   Ah.

MAT:   And it was a kind of, I don‟t know, a vision of utopia that I just don‟t see in

LIZ:   (Sings) What a wonderful world.

MAT:   And it did seem to be that, and they can all, you know, sing.

LIZ:   So we should – all disabled people should move to Wales.

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                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:   I think so. You could have like a, yeah…

LIZ:   That could be a new government incentive, couldn‟t it?

MAT:   Yeah, the Welsh Assembly.

LIZ:   Ship us all there!

MAT:   Ah, that would nice.

LIZ:   Hmmm.

MAT:   Liz…

LIZ:   What have I been up to?

MAT:   …what the heck have you been doing?

LIZ:   Well, yes, cause we haven‟t really talked, have we? If you read one of my
       articles on Ouch you might know what I‟ve been up to, and that‟s – it was my
       brother‟s 40th (sighs).

MAT:   Well, it comes to us all.

LIZ:   Yeah, well, yeah, hmmm. That was interesting.

MAT:   And was he depressed about it?

LIZ:   He was fine about it; I was depressed at being at his 40th birthday.

MAT:   What was the problem?

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                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:   Oh, don‟t. Well, you know, the whole dancing thing. I mean I don‟t know, do
       you have an equivalent dancing thing, „cause there‟s this…

MAT:   Well, what do you mean? Wedding dancing?

LIZ:   …okay, when you‟re at, yeah, wedding dancing, funeral dancing…

MAT:   Yeah, it‟s always a hysterical one.

LIZ:   …party, that‟s always a bit embarrassing. You know, where, like, some
       relative or somebody comes up and they grab parts of you and start to dance
       with you, because particularly when you‟re a wheelie they think, ah bless, I‟m
       sure she really wants to dance; I‟ll grab her limbs and make me move.

MAT:   Oh, no!

LIZ:   In a plinkety plonkety kind of way.

MAT:   I have seen it done, I must admit.

LIZ:   You know, don‟t you?

MAT:   Yeah, the up and down, and the awful look of…

LIZ:   Yeah, I guess people don‟t know what to grab with you.

MAT:   ...desolation.

LIZ:   Do they?

MAT:   No, they don‟t; they just leave me alone altogether. Even Red, Red Wine at
       the end of the day, no one‟s dancing with Mat Fraser.

                                  Page 6 of 86

                     Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:   And I guess the other thing is, and we‟ll talk about it in a minute, but I did a
       little bit of something for Five Live the other day and how glam did I feel.
       There I was at BBC Television Centre and I was really excited…

MAT:   Ah ha.

LIZ:   …because I remembered Roy Castle doing the tap dancing thing.

MAT:   Oh, do you remember that?

LIZ:   (Shouts) Yes!

MAT:   Oh, god, that was so cool. He did a million taps!

LIZ:   (Shouts) Yes!

MAT:   Like no one has ever done that since.

LIZ:   No, I know.

MAT:   Anyway, sorry.

LIZ:   And I go to – and I‟m going, “This is where – this is where he did the tap
       dancing.” Nobody knows what I‟m talking about. “Come through to the lift.”
       That‟s what they‟re like. Two hours later, my knickers are down and I‟m in
       the doctor‟s surgery and they‟re lancing a boil on my arse! There‟s the
       glamour of being a celebrity, a minor one.

MAT:   Who‟s what? Sorry, hold on a sec! One minute it was Roy Castle, the next

LIZ:   Yeah.

                                  Page 7 of 86

                      Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:   …your knickers were down and having a boil lanced!

LIZ:   This is absolutely true. I‟d been in a little bit of pain, a little bit of discomfort
       sitting down.

MAT:   Oh, okay, okay.

LIZ:   Yeah, we all get, you know, a bit of an impairment issue here, you know.

MAT:   Yeah, yeah, I‟m sure.

LIZ:   It‟s all right, we can talk about that on the Podcast, can‟t we?

MAT:   So, was it like a pressure sore, or something?

LIZ:   Well, yeah, kind of, yeah. Apparently it‟s a nice abscess. Anyway, right,
       where‟s Rob?

ROB:   Yeah, sorry.

LIZ:   Yeah, sorry.

ROB:   I‟m rendered slightly speechless, by the way. How big was the boil?

LIZ:   Oh, it was about the size of a 50 pence piece.

ROB:   Wow, it sounds like a Record Breaker!

LIZ:   It is. Considering…

MAT:   Ah, hey, hey!

                                   Page 8 of 86

                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:   Ohhhhh.

MAT:   Rob, it‟s getting close to Christmas…

LIZ:   Hmmm.

MAT:   …I don‟t know about you, but I personally do not want to get caught out in the
       rush for goodies this year. I can‟t bear thinking about the look on the faces of
       my disabled friends who might have to go without. So, we‟re sending you
       down to Hamleys.

ROB:   Yes.

MAT:   One of the world‟s most famous toy stores to find some disability appropriate
       presents with a disability theme.

ROB:   Oh, brilliant!

MAT:   Yeah.

LIZ:   Are you happy? Is this all right?

ROB:   I‟m so happy now. Great.

LIZ:   Yeah, „cause you‟re always moaning about the tasks.

MAT:   So once we have a task that‟s indoors for you.

LIZ:   Yey!

ROB:   Oh, excellent!

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                      Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:   So, go. So, go now.

ROB:   All right then; all right, I‟m going.

LIZ:   You have – yes. And give us a call, okay, we need to know how it‟s going.

MAT:   Anyway, the last time I was in Hamleys I was about 15.

LIZ:   Oh, well, they‟d better be good, „cause we‟re giving them out as a prize at the
       end of the show.

MAT:   Oh, yeah. Sorry, Rob.

ROB:   What?

MAT:   Ha, ha. Don‟t think you can come back with any old tat.

LIZ:   Here, wait a minute. Yeah.

ROB:   They‟re not for me?

MAT:   (shouts) No!

LIZ:   (Shouts) No! Okay?

MAT:   Duh?

LIZ:   Err? Err?

MAT:   Yeah, you can make do with that video you were talking about.

LIZ:   Ah, dear god. Good to get rid of him.

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                          Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:         Ah, it‟s nice to see him again though.

LIZ:         There we go. It is nice. I didn‟t think we‟d ever see him again, did you?

(Jingle: “The Ouch Podcast!”)

MAT:         Well, what can we say? We are literally blown away by the supportive emails
             we‟ve received since we announced the Podcast might not be coming back.

LIZ:         And actually, some people thought it was a bit of a publicity stunt. I did get a
             few friends saying, “Oh, you‟re just doing it to get more press.” No, we
             weren‟t at all, absolutely. Our inbox…

MAT:         There really was a threat.

LIZ:         There really was a threat.

MAT:         Yeah.

LIZ:         The inbox was swamped; we can‟t mention everybody, but hello to Louise
             Shasike from Melbourne, Australia.

MAT:         Steph Young from Sheffield.

LIZ:         Narrida Wella from Melbourne.

MAT:         Jack, London.

LIZ:         Nick Herriot, Wales.

MAT:         Katherine in the yellow, London.

                                          Page 11 of 86

                            Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:         Michael Preston, Stratford, London.

MAT:         Steve Clairer.

LIZ:         Janet Price.

MAT:         Ian Head.

LIZ:         Charles Borg in Malta.

MAT:         Hey, the Maltese.

LIZ:         And to the hundreds of others that we can‟t mention, a huge, huge thank you.
             I checked it just before we came in today and we had 1,218 people, and we‟re
             talking regular Podcast listeners obviously, regular Ouch contributors, and
             comedians, non-disabled people, disabled people.

MAT:         Yeah.

LIZ:         People from absolutely all over the world; it‟s been amazing.

MAT:         And including somebody who approached me on Preston train station who
             came up to me gushing going, “Sorry, are you Mat Fraser?” I went, “Yeah.”
             He went “Oh, you‟ve got to keep the Podcast; you‟ve got to. I‟m dyslexic.”
             And then he went off.

The BBC heartily endorses the Ouch Podcast!

LIZ:         But I love – I mean actually as well, I got a bit addicted, „cause you know I‟m
             a bit addicted to reality TV anyway?

MAT:         We know that, Liz.

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                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:   Okay. But I got a bit addicted to the petition. I kept check – I kept refreshing
       and refresh – who‟s signed it now? Who‟s signed it now? Who do I know?
       Who do I – and some of the comments were just brilliant. I love this, Paul
       Dark, Wolverhampton, trying to be clever, “Barve handicapped people”, I
       think you meant brave, Paul, bless ya! Haven‟t you got a PhD, Doctor Dark?
       “Barve handicapped people need an outlet; give them this, please oh, Lord.”

MAT:   And then, oh, one here from Bradford, (Yorkshire accent) “Don‟t do it; it‟s
       adult entertainment, treats us like grownups with a sense of humour, and it
       made me buy digital radio, which cost a fortune.” Interesting, considering that
       Joe Verant, I believe, is deaf.

LIZ:   The wonderful Phillip Hanson from New Zealand.

MAT:   Oh, my favourite gay CP wheelchair using disabled comedian.

LIZ:   Like he doesn‟t tick all the boxes. “Best disability broadcast on the planet,
       maybe the universe.” Oh, I love this sad one, Mat Fraser from Teddington,
       “Please save my job, me and Liz need this to survive, really.”

MAT:   Yeah, well, sorry about that.

LIZ:   I guess now…

MAT:   I was worried for a minute there.

LIZ: the musical‟s over.

MAT:   Yeah, and then we‟ve got a really nice one here from a woman called Liz
       Crow from Bristol, “The Podcast is one of the rare programmes on radio that
       feels like mine. At a time when the BBC and Channel 4 our mainstreaming

                                    Page 13 of 86

                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

       us, (gasp) who asked us? And rarely commissioning overt disability content
       on radio television, the Podcast is more essential than ever.” Thanks, Liz.

LIZ:   Yeah.

MAT:   It‟s nice to have a mature comment that really means something.

LIZ:   Absolutely. We‟ve got good old, you know, Lawrence Clark.

MAT:   Oh, Lozza.

LIZ:   Hey! La, La, he said, “Axe Beyond Boundaries instead”, which…

MAT:   Well, he‟s got a point there.

LIZ:   Yeah, I think he has. Yes.

MAT:   Now, I mean do you not feel buoyed up and, sort of, massaged all over with

LIZ:   Well, you do, „cause you see, you know, we sit in this little studio and you
       don‟t really know who‟s out there listening, so it was brilliant.

MAT:   It‟s the talk of the whole media.

LIZ:   The Director General knows about it; the governors know about it.

MAT:   I was up at Groucho‟s the other night…

LIZ:   I know.

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                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:   …talking to Keith Allen, the base player from Blur. They were going, “Can
       we – when can – can we be interviewed on the Podcast?” I said, “Not unless
       you disable yourself, no.” They‟re actually considering it.

LIZ:   „Cause as well as the petition and the comments we got loads of other
       feedback, and stuff sent into Ouch. I mean over, what, over 100, 200, kind of,
       emails all about Ouch, so that was brilliant. Just to move away from, you
       know, some of the safer Podcast stuff, it‟s been quite a month for some of the
       discussions, and I love this one. The heading of it, Mat…

MAT:   Ah ha.

LIZ:   „Assistance, Pigs”.

MAT:   Oh, okay. Well, they are meant to be very intelligent four-legged creatures,
       but I‟ve not seen that many.

LIZ:   Turtle said, “Can I get one? I think it would be more suited to my flat than a
       dog?” Flash, “There was some talk of tiny ponies being used to guide the
       blind some time ago, but I‟ve never seen one. Has anyone?” Nutty Survivor,
       re the ponies, “They have guide ponies in America, but I‟m not sure how
       widespread they are. They need nappies. I‟ve read they also have to have
       slippers, so their shoes don‟t slip on solid floors indoors.”

MAT:   Who makes cleft slippers?

LIZ:   I don‟t know. The Clarks horse range!

MAT:   They are very good at wide shoes, aren‟t they, Clarks, yeah.

LIZ:   Yeah, Hush Ponies instead.

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                     Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:   Ha, ha. God!

LIZ:   I didn‟t even think about that one.

MAT:   This is turning into a kind of comedy writers‟ workshop.

LIZ:   Do you remember Rob? Do you remember – Rob‟s a big pony fan.

MAT:   I do. I was just thinking of Rob when you said that.

LIZ:   Yeah, I‟m wondering if, you know, he‟s going to come back with a whole
       bagful of My Little Pony.

MAT:   Ah, wouldn‟t that be lovely. Do they have – you know they have Becky, you
       know, the wheelchair Barbie…

LIZ:   Yes.

MAT:   Is there a My Little Pony for the disabled? You know, like riding for the

LIZ:   Like a riding for the disabled My Little Pony?

MAT:   Yeah, yeah.

LIZ:   That would be great.

MAT:   Oh, I hope they do. I feel…

LIZ:   You‟re buoyant, aren‟t you? I can see.

MAT:   Well, I‟ve just been out there on the road feeling very isolated…

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                          Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:         I know.

MAT:         …occasionally seeing disabled people whiz past on the platform in a train as I
             go off to another horrific town and, you know, it‟s nice to be home with all my
             lovely people.

LIZ:         Oh, lovely disabled friends.

MAT:         Ah, I know. So, let‟s – is…

LIZ:         Go on.

MAT:         Okay.

LIZ:         Go on.

MAT:         Okay. I just want to say one thing…

LIZ:         Yeah.

MAT:         …has George Michael got multiple sclerosis? Don‟t have the answer.

LIZ:         Okay, so earlier in the show we sent Rob down to Hamleys to see what he
             could find us in the Christmas gifts for kiddies. Hello, Rob, are you there?

ROB:         I‟m here, hello.

LIZ:         Oh, have you got us anything? What‟s it like?

MAT:         Something with a disability theme.

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                      Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:   Yeah.

ROB:   I‟ve got an array of things; it‟s just been amazing to wander around and see
       the small children who you know are just going to be the biggest brats 364
       days of the year, but the one day they go to Hamleys they‟re just in this benign
       state of this utter euphoria, and it‟s actually rather nice. And I‟m also – I need
       to get some – do you want me to tell you what I‟ve got already or do you want
       me to save it until I get back to the studio?

MAT:   Yeah, okay.

LIZ:   Oh, you‟re coming back?

MAT:   Seeing as you‟re coming back then, surprise us with something really

ROB:   Well, I‟ve got a bucket of a 100 quid, so I‟m probably running on ditching the
       toys and going to the – there‟s a bar just round the corner.

LIZ:   (Gasps).

ROB:   So I‟m not entirely sure how much I‟m going to come back with. Probably,
       I‟ll nick a few pint glasses and a few ashtrays.

LIZ:   Can you give us a little teaser?

ROB:   I‟ll give you a teaser, yeah, okay.

LIZ:   Wet our appetites.

ROB:   I‟ve managed to get hold of a pig, and there‟s a cuddly pig called Giggly
       Piggly, which has these amazing epileptic fits.

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                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:   (Gasps).

ROB:   It‟s absolutely incredible. Just all this touch you give it and it just has an
       enormous seizure, and it‟s actually quite disturbing. So, I‟m calling it Cripply
       Piggly. It‟s going off in my hand as we speak. It‟s got this amazing demented
       look in its eyes as well. I‟m loving Cripply Piggly, and that‟s just the least of
       the bounty, the bounty of goods I‟m going to bring back.

LIZ:   Oh, very bad.

MAT:   My word.

LIZ:   Have you finish – have you got more floors to do? Is there more shopping to
       be done?

ROB:   Well, I‟ve only – literally, I think I‟ve seen about an eighth of what Hamleys
       has to offer thus far.

LIZ:   Okay. So, you‟ve got a bit more time, and you‟ve got a bit more money to
       spend, and then we can get you back at the studio.

ROB:   Well, actually, I‟ve got 90 quid for booze and 10 quid for toys, so yeah, let‟s
       see what we come back with. I hope you like fudge bars and milky ways, and
       the Cripply Piggly, of course.

MAT:   Oh, I cannot wait. As long as you‟re in the safe hands of our researcher,
       Emma, I‟m sure you‟ll be fine.

ROB:   No, no, she‟s gone to the pub already; I‟m on my own now.

MAT:   Oh, she‟s done it again!

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                     Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

ROB:   Yeah, I keep on telling her.

LIZ:   Okay, enjoy the kiddies anyway. Have fun.

MAT:   Not too much though, Rob.

ROB:   Will do. Okay, bye.

LIZ:   Bye, bye. Hey, who needs an assistant‟s pig when you‟ve got one of them?

MAT:   Oh, when you‟ve got a Cripply Piggly!

LIZ:   How great‟s that!

MAT:   Sorry, so there‟s the boardroom ideas. Okay, so I need a new toy and I need it
       now, guys. I‟ve got something. Yes. Cripply Piggly. And what happens?
       Well, you rub it and it has an epileptic fit! Put it into production straightaway.

LIZ:   Two million for Christmas.

MAT:   What the hell‟s going on?

LIZ:   Who would buy that?

MAT:   I suppose it‟s maybe the extension from…

LIZ:   Other than him.

MAT:   …Cabbage Patch Kids, which were basically quite deformed children, weren‟t
       they, let‟s face it.

LIZ:   Yes.

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                          Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:         And it‟s gone on. I‟ve not – now it‟s Cripply Piggly.

LIZ:         I know.

MAT:         What‟s it gonna be next? I wonder if they ever have a Blunkett doll. Can you
             imagine a David Blunkett doll. “I would really like to take you to a hotel
             room”! “Mummy, I‟m scared.” Oh, okay, I‟m sorry, the whole scenario‟s
             played itself out in my mind.

The BBC heartily endorses the Ouch Podcast!

(Jingle: “The Ouch Podcast!”)

PETER:       I‟m Peter White, the BBC‟s Disability Affairs Correspondent; can you guess
             what‟s going on in my head?

MAT:         For this Podcast only it‟s our new quiz What Would Peter White Say? Now,
             it‟s a fiendish game where we invite you to psychoanalyse the veteran Radio 4

LIZ:         And we have a caller on the line; it‟s Nicky Herriot. Hello, Nicky.

NICKY:       Hi there. Hi, Liz, all right?

LIZ:         I‟m great. So where are you calling from, Nicky?

NICKY:       I‟m calling from Aberystwyth.

LIZ:         Aberystwyth.

MAT:         Ohhhhh. I love that town.

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                      Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

NICKY:   Oh, you‟ve been here?

MAT:     Yeah, I used to go to school in Tregaron.

NICKY:   Oh, right.

MAT:     Yeah. So, what do you do, Nicky?

NICKY:   I do various things. I work as a volunteer at a women‟s refuge.

MAT:     Oh, that‟s really great.

NICKY:   And I‟m working on a project to make it accessible as possible, it‟s a bed and
         breakfast just down the road.

MAT:     Ohhhhh.

NICKY:   And I‟ve got to go in there and give the luxury workout and then the, sort of,
         the cheap workout, you know. People have been saying, we want pedestals,
         sinks going up and down, and toilets, and things, this and the other, which is
         going to cost megabucks, but they‟re in the programme and they‟re gonna
         make it as accessible as possible.

LIZ:     Fantastic.

MAT:     That‟s amazing.

NICKY:   So, it‟s ongoing for as long as the money runs, basically.

LIZ:     Hey, so we‟ll have somewhere to stay.

MAT:     Well, good luck.

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                      Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:     That‟ll be nice.

MAT:     Nice one.

NICKY:   Hopefully, yeah.

MAT:     Ah.

LIZ:     This is serious stuff.

MAT:     Sorry, yes, I was getting all reminiscenery.

LIZ:     Come one.

MAT:     Now, okay, so let‟s get in the right mood now.

NICKY:   You can reminisce. Tregaron‟s a great town; they‟ve got a kick arse hockey
         team and stuff like that.

MAT:     Yeah, well they kicked my arse when I was there, that‟s for sure. Just for
         being English.

LIZ:     For different reasons.

MAT:     Anyway.

NICKY:   Oh, yeah, well, you know, you can‟t replace…

MAT:     Anyway, no, I‟ll give them this, I‟ll give them this, right. I never was bullied
         for being disabled by the Welsh. Okay, so, let‟s get in the right mood now.

NICKY:   Good. I‟ve heard that from other people actually.

                                     Page 23 of 86

                        Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:      Yeah, and they‟re very egalitarian bulliers. Now, come on, are we gonna be
          serious? Okay, so, let‟s get right in the mood.

NICKY:    Yeah.

MAT:      This is serious stuff. Are you ready to play our game, Nicky?

NICKY:    I think so.

MAT:      Here‟s Peter to explain the rules to you.


PETER:    The rules of the game go like this, Mat and Liz are going to give you two
          options, and you have to decide which one I, Peter White, will choose.

LIZ:      Okay, Nicky, we‟ve got ten questions. If you answer of them correctly, you
          get to win an Ouch rucksack, or, well, spacsack, as they call it on the message
          board. They‟re an unpleasant lot on there, aren‟t they?

MAT:      You don‟t need to answer these straightaway; in fact please feel free to share
          what‟s going through your mind. Indeed, take your time.

NICKY:    Okay.

LIZ:      Okay.

NICKY:    Oh, can I ask, like, the family and get people in and help, or not?

MAT:      No.

LIZ:      No.

                                     Page 24 of 86

                     Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

NICKY:   Oh, damn, okay.

LIZ:     Question number 1, which would Peter White choose, beer or wine? Have a
         think about this, Nicky, beer or wine?

NICKY:   Okay.

MAT:     Remember, he‟s a blind man.

NICKY:   He‟s a what man?

MAT:     He‟s a blind man.

NICKY:   Yeah, but he‟s a Radio 4 presenter.

LIZ:     Yeah, very true, hmmm.

NICKY:   So, his he a real ale bearded blind presenter…

LIZ:     Hmmm.

NICKY:   …on Radio 4?

MAT:     Hmmm, could be.

NICKY:   With Nouveaux and wine.

MAT:     Ohhhhh.

LIZ:     Okay.

NICKY:   I would go with the beer.

                                     Page 25 of 86

                     Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:     Yeah, let‟s find out. Peter, which would you choose, beer or wine?

PETER:   Beer.

MAT:     Well, well, well, you‟ve very well.

LIZ:     Huh-hey. One down.

MAT:     One down.

LIZ:     Closer to the spacsack.

MAT:     Yes, let‟s try this second question shall we, Nicky? Migraine or dyslexia,
         what would Peter White say?

NICKY:   What, migraine or dyslexia?

LIZ:     Hmmm.

MAT:     That‟s it. Take your time.

LIZ:     Remember, he‟s blind.

NICKY:   Ah, yeah, „cause if you read Braille, do you get dyslexia when you read

LIZ:     Hmmm.

MAT:     I don‟t know.

NICKY:   Or would you get a headache trying to read it?

                                      Page 26 of 86

                         Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:         Ah.

LIZ:         Hmmm hmm.

NICKY:       Or would you get…

LIZ:         It‟s tough. Nobody said this was easy.

NICKY:       No, I would go with the migraine, because there‟s more listening, reading, you
             know, oral stuff and that could give you a headache.

MAT:         Yeah.

NICKY:       So, I‟m gonna go with the migraine.

LIZ:         (Sniggers). Sorry.

NICKY:       Why are you sniggering?

MAT:         Nothing. You said, “Oral”.

LIZ:         Always makes us laugh.

NICKY:       Okay.

LIZ:         Especially when…

The BBC heartily endorses the Ouch Podcast!

NICKY:       I‟m very glad.

MAT:         You think that Peter White would choose what?

                                       Page 27 of 86

                      Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

NICKY:   Migraine.

MAT:     Peter, which would you choose migraine or dyslexia?

PETER:   Dyslexia.

LIZ:     Ohhhhh.

MAT:     Ohhhhh.

LIZ:     There we go. Question number 3, which would Peter White choose, the
         Olympics or the Paralympics? Hmmm. What do you think, Nicky?

NICKY:   Well, he can‟t really watch the Olympics.

LIZ:     No. He probably can‟t watch either though, can he really?

NICKY:   No, he can‟t, can he, no. But I mean he would appreciate the bumps and the
         ouches as, you know, wheelchairs ran over…

LIZ:     Yeah.

NICKY:   ...walking participants, and things.

LIZ:     Yeah.

MAT:     Yeah, because that always happens. Yeah, it‟s a tough one. Hmmm.

LIZ:     It‟s testing you, I can see.

                                        Page 28 of 86

                      Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

NICKY:   You know, if it was, yeah, yeah, „cause if he was like – yeah, if he was like
         into, you know, being pro disabled, and things like that, he‟d go for the
         disabled Olympics.

LIZ:     Yeah.

NICKY:   But he was just Peter in his own little world, and…

LIZ:     Yeah.

MAT:     Because obviously he‟s blind, so very sad and lonely.

LIZ:     We‟re gonna have to hurry you on this one, Nicky.

NICKY:   Are we going to – okay, I‟m gonna go – stop the intellectual, I‟m gonna go for

LIZ:     Okay, the Olympics. Let‟s find out, Peter, which would you choose?

PETER:   Paralympics, of course.

LIZ:     Of course.

NICKY:   I knew it, you see. Right, okay.

LIZ:     Of course. Ah, ah.

MAT:     Nicky, Blindy or Blinky, which would Peter White choose?

NICKY:   What, to describe himself?

LIZ:     Don‟t over think it, Nicky.

                                   Page 29 of 86

                      Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

NICKY:   Yeah, okay, Blinky.

MAT:     Okay, Peter, which would you choose?

PETER:   Blindy.

LIZ:     Ohhhhh.

MAT:     Ohhhhh, two down, two up.

LIZ:     Ohhhhh. Blindy, wow! Next time I see him that‟s what I‟m gonna call him.

MAT:     Oh, yeah, well he‟s a game boy, isn‟t he?

LIZ:     He is; he is.     Okay, number 5, which would Peter White choose, Stevie
         Wonder or David Blunkett?

MAT:     Oh, that‟s a hard one.

NICKY:   Stevie Wonder.

LIZ:     Oh, no, why?

NICKY:   Ohhhhh, because…

LIZ:     You just went with him.

NICKY:   Well, Stevie Wonder‟s got the better press at the moment.

LIZ:     Okay. Okay.

MAT:     I should cocoa.

                                   Page 30 of 86

                       Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:     Hey! So come on, Peter, which would you choose?

PETER:   Oh, that‟s so tough. They‟ve both given me so much trouble in their time.
         Stevie Wonder.

LIZ:     Hey! Well done.

NICKY:   At least I‟ve scraped off the floor.

LIZ:     And what sort of trouble have they given him? That‟s what I wanna know.

MAT:     Depression or epilepsy, which would Peter White say?

NICKY:   Hmmm, epilepsy.

LIZ:     Oh, yes.

MAT:     So, if you think that, let‟s hear what Peter says.

PETER:   Epilepsy.

LIZ:     Hey!

MAT:     Nice!

LIZ:     Yeah, wouldn‟t we all, hey! Number 7, are you ready for number 7?

NICKY:   Go on then.

LIZ:     Botcha or botulism, which do you think he‟d go for? Botcha or botulism?

NICKY:   I think botulism, going back to Radio 4.

                                    Page 31 of 86

                      Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:     Okay.

NICKY:   He‟s turned down Blinky.

LIZ:     Yeah.

NICKY:   So, botulism.

LIZ:     Okay. Peter, what are you gonna go for?

PETER:   Beer.

LIZ:     Beer?

MAT:     We are so professional.

LIZ:     And to think they thought about taking us off the airways.

MAT:     Botulism is horrendous fatal food poisoning. What‟s botcha?

LIZ:     Well, it‟s almost as bad; it‟s a spastic sport. It‟s basically where they, kind of,
         throw beanbags, or something like that.

NICKY:   Oh, that‟s not fair, „cause I thought botcha was like shorthand, like slang for

LIZ:     Oh, no. No, no, no. No, it is – it‟s a cerebral palsy game.

NICKY:   Exactly, so I wanna change my answer. I don‟t wanna give him botulism.

LIZ:     Oh, okay.

                                    Page 32 of 86

                        Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

NICKY:   I‟d just rather go for botcha.

LIZ:     Okay, you wanna give him beanbags, not food poisoning.

NICKY:   Yes, please.

LIZ:     All right then. So let‟s see. Peter White, which would you choose?

PETER:   Botcha.

LIZ:     Hey!

MAT:     Hey! Nicky, milk chocolate or dark chocolate, what would Peter White say?

NICKY:   Hmmm, he‟s got to be dark chocolate.

MAT:     Hmmm, well, Peter?

NICKY:   For that very reason.

MAT:     Which would you choose?

PETER:   Milk chocolate.

NICKY:   Ohhhhh. No.

MAT:     What‟s the score? What‟s the score?

LIZ:     Four.

NICKY:   Yeah.

                                    Page 33 of 86

                       Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:     Okay, well let‟s see how we‟re going. Carrying on.

LIZ:     Paracetamol or paraplegic, which would Peter White choose?

MAT:     Ohhhhh.

NICKY:   Paracetamol, „cause you can get a good joke out of that.

LIZ:     Okay. Peter, which would you choose?

PETER:   Paraplegic.

LIZ:     Hey!

MAT:     Ohhhhh.

LIZ:     Oh, he surprises you, doesn‟t he? You think you‟ve got the blind mind sorted
         and you just can‟t predict, can you?

NICKY:   And I‟ve got nothing to carry me books in now.

MAT:     Anyway, to our last question, last but not least question, which would Peter
         White choose, Blind Man‟s Buff or Beyond Boundaries?

NICKY:   Ohhhhh.

MAT:     I know, hey! Ohhhhh indeed.

NICKY:   Yeah.

LIZ:     Throw yourself out your chair and drag yourself over a sand dune, go on, go
         on. Show the world how empowered you are.

                                   Page 34 of 86

                      Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

NICKY:   Yeah, or just that there‟s something in the gulley. I would go for Blind Man‟s

MAT:     Is that really – why?

NICKY:   Because it goes with his beer and it‟s nice and warm and cosy, yeah.

MAT:     Okay. Is that really what you think the answer is, Nicky?

NICKY:   No, because I think his best mate‟s Chris Bonington, so I think he‟s gonna go
         with Beyond Boundaries.

LIZ:     Hmmm.

MAT:     Okay. Utterly confused, I think we have to go to Peter for the final answer.
         Peter, which would you choose?

PETER:   Blind Man‟s Buff.

LIZ:     Hey!

MAT:     Ohhhhh.

NICKY:   Oh, it‟s not fair, Mat. I thought I was getting a clue to go this wards.

MAT:     I‟m not privy to any of the inside information.

LIZ:     We‟re not.

MAT:     I know it might seem that we‟ve got the answers in front of us, but we haven‟t.
         We really, really haven‟t. Now…

                                    Page 35 of 86

                        Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

NICKY:   I‟ll have to…

MAT:     Nicky darling, thanks for playing our game.

NICKY:   That‟s okay.

LIZ:     You got a resounding, are you ready?

NICKY:   Yeah.

LIZ:     Four out of ten, Nicky.

NICKY:   Oh.

MAT:     Ahhhhh.

LIZ:     But, you know, that‟s fine.

MAT:     Does that mean no rucksack for Nicky?

NICKY:   That‟s the problem, isn‟t it?

LIZ:     No.

MAT:     No spacsack.

LIZ:     No spacsack for Nicky.

NICKY:   And they do talk very proudly about their backpacks on Ouch.

LIZ:     Can we send her a little…

                                     Page 36 of 86

                     Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:     Damon, please, please.

LIZ:     Come on.

DAMON:   Okay.

MAT:     Ohhhhh.

LIZ:     She can wear it and pretend to be a hunchback.

MAT:     We‟re gonna give you the rucksack, Nicky.

LIZ:     Yey. Hey!

NICKY:   Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.

MAT:     And thank you so much for coming on the programme and playing our really,
         really very special and probably only once ever quiz.

NICKY:   I think you should run it every week.

MAT:     Thank you. Bye.

LIZ:     Take care, Nicky. Bye, bye.

NICKY:   Okay, thank you very much.

LIZ:     Have we really got rucksacks? Ouch rucksacks?

MAT:     Hmmm.

LIZ:     No. Why haven‟t we got one?

                                   Page 37 of 86

                          Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:         Hold on, I haven‟t even seen one let alone been offered one.

LIZ:         (Gasps) I don‟t even know.

(Jingle: “The Ouch Podcast!”)

MAT:         Picture the scene, I‟m earning a mere equity minimum, yes, on tour with my

LIZ:         Yeah.

MAT:         You are being paid loads of spondolits to represent, I believe, hmmm, us, is
             that not the case?

LIZ:         Err…

MAT:         A Radio Live Five Live Five?

LIZ:         No, I was asked to – have you – okay.

MAT:         Was this about the Podcast, or not?

LIZ:         No, it wasn‟t about the Podcast.

MAT:         Oh. Oh, I see.

LIZ:         Will you listen.

MAT:         Sorry, what was it about, Liz?

                                       Page 38 of 86

                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:   Well, have you heard about this documentary called the Cripindales?

MAT:   Indeed, I have.

LIZ:   Do you know what the tag line is?

MAT:   No.

LIZ:   They might not have legs, but do they have the balls?

MAT:   Oh, that‟s so clever.

LIZ:   Isn‟t that clever. Because it‟s about a load of crip guys that learn how to be
       strippers and that then do a striptease act in front of a hen night. That‟s what
       the doc – it follows them through.

MAT:   Okay. That‟s interesting, „cause the phrase itself was invented by me as a gag,
       like, seven years ago when I was doing stand up…

LIZ:   Yeah.

MAT:   …as a comedy concept, and I created this pretend raggle daggle of the blind
       guy falls off the front of the stage causing a power surge and the dodgy
       electric wheels go, which sets the fire breathing dwarf off, and it was all, like,
       a gag. But this is for real then?

LIZ:   This is for real. They really did it.

MAT:   So what – wow!

LIZ:   It‟s gonna go out on Channel 4, I think.

                                   Page 39 of 86

                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:   Okay. Yes, that‟s right.

LIZ:   Later this year, and it‟s just been out in the Sheffield Documentary Festival, or
       whatever, and it‟s going to the New York Film Festival.

MAT:   What?

LIZ:   The discussion was about that, and it had a couple of the guys that did it. It
       also had the producer, or whatever.

MAT:   Would you want to see them take their clothes off?

LIZ:   One guy said that he had a tiny part in the film, and I was a little disappointed
       in that.

MAT:   Oh, Liz.

LIZ:   But the actual topic, I mean we were discussing that, but I think they also
       wanted a disabled woman‟s perspective on, you know, on sex and stuff like
       that, because the topic was, Disabled People and Sex, the Final Taboo?

MAT:   The final taboo, my arse.

LIZ:   Dun, dun, dun. So, yeah, but it was amazing, „cause I‟ve never done talk radio
       like that before.

MAT:   Haven‟t you? You‟d be really good at it.

LIZ:   Oh, my goodness. „Cause I was really, you know, I know I‟m a, you know,
       I‟ve been around and, you know…

MAT:   We know that.

                                   Page 40 of 86

                     Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:   I‟ve campaigned, you know, I know what we face out there.

MAT:   Yeah.

LIZ:   But still when people ring in and they going – one guy said, you know,
       “You‟ve really sunk the depths of depravity with this discussion today.”

MAT:   What discussion? Talking about…

LIZ:   Talking about sex and disability.

MAT:   Oh, no, not still.

LIZ:   And we weren‟t really, we were talking about perceptions and attitudes and,
       you know, and people were then texting in, because, of course, you can be
       quite brave when you‟re texting.

MAT:   Of course you can.

LIZ:   But, you know, well, I‟m now turning over to Radio 4 and I‟ve got the mute
       button at the handy, „cause I‟m just not going to listen to this at breakfast time,
       „cause it was 9.00 „til 10.00 in the morning.

MAT:   And who was the presenter of the Five Live show?

LIZ:   Victoria Derbyshire.

MAT:   And was she supportive or was she…

LIZ:   Well, she was pretty neutral. I mean she was fine, I think. „Cause I had
       written on my notes…

                                  Page 41 of 86

                     Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:   Yes.

LIZ:   This is a bit deep this now.

MAT:   Hmmm, okay.

LIZ:   And they could read it. And I put, „cause, you know, the guys doing it really
       had said that they had a good time, you know.

MAT:   Well, good.

LIZ:   So, do we think that this programme would be good? Is it a good thing? But I
       had written, „cause I was being a bit deep, just because they don‟t think
       they‟ve been exploited, doesn‟t mean they haven‟t been.

MAT:   Potentially so, no, that‟s the case. But it could also be that they‟re not being
       exploited. I mean when you say exploitation, do you mean they‟ve been
       exploited because the general public are being encouraged to look at their
       freakish bodies with some kind of not straightforward sexual attraction, but
       some kind of shardenfreud, you know, sort of…

LIZ:   Yeah, yes.

MAT:   …perviness, for want of a better word?

LIZ:   Well, I think – I mean, you know, „cause it‟s a great net, the Cripindales are
       funny. I love it, yeah.

MAT:   And were they not tongue in cheek? I mean were they not a bit boisterous
       with it and having a laugh?

LIZ:   I thought they were quite serious about it.

                                  Page 42 of 86

                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:   Okay.

LIZ:   I mean they were having fun with it, you know, and whatever.

MAT:   Well, good, I hope so.

LIZ:   And they wanna do it again. But I just thought, you put that in the context of a
       Channel 4, you know, evening slot, right?

MAT:   Oh, yeah.

LIZ:   And you know that the TV is filled with freak TV.

MAT:   Yeah.

LIZ:   You know, The Boy that Ate His Own Bottom and The Woman Who, you
       know, lah, lah, lah, whatever.

MAT:   Yeah, I know, it‟s tough at the moment on telly with disability, it really is.

LIZ:   So it‟s just, can it – could it anyone look at and it not be freak TV? I don‟t

MAT:   Well, I suppose what I should say is, if there was a programme about a woman
       who – say, a woman who had mental health problems…

LIZ:   Hmmm hmm.

MAT:   …but she still wanted to go out and work as a stripper, and then I was
       watching the programme, would I be guilty of only watching the programme
       because I wanted to see her bits, „cause I‟m a geezer, or because I was

                                  Page 43 of 86

                     Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

       generally interested in her situation? I‟m not getting upset, it‟s just I‟ve got a
       frog in my throat (Coughs loudly).

LIZ:   Oh, I was thinking maybe you were getting aroused, and that was upsetting
       you a little bit, to be honest.

MAT:   No. Rewind, select. So, are they saying then, you know, the sort of stripiness
       aside, that anything on telly to do with disabled people is only pervy fetish and
       doesn‟t belong in normal telly land?

LIZ:   No, I think that‟s – I mean almost I‟m saying, I mean, you know, when you‟re
       on there and you‟re doing those radio things, you know, there‟s solidarity, you
       know, these guys have done it, and they were great guys; the programme‟s
       going out; you have got people ringing in saying, “People like you have got
       real attitude problems, you should be killed”, you should, you know, whatever.
       There‟s no way you‟re gonna debate the subtleties like we are now.

MAT:   No. No, I guess not, no.

LIZ:   You‟ve pretty much gotta say, “Actually, it‟s all right being us; we do have
       sex, yeah, we do have the same emotions as you do, but we don‟t particularly
       always wanna look and be like you just to experience it”, you know what I

MAT:   Yes.

LIZ:   And so that‟s the sort of discussion we‟re trying to have, but actually you can‟t
       have that, „cause people are just going, “Oh, yes, I agree with you.” And other
       people are going, “Oh, you should be shot.” So…

MAT:   Oh, they‟re so charming, aren‟t they, some people?

                                    Page 44 of 86

                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:   It‟s lovely. So, I kind of – but it did also, sort of, a bit, you know, a bit – it
       was a bit hurtful I found.

MAT:   Well, I for one, and, you know, I am allowed an opinion, even though I‟m not
       – the BBC is not endorsing my personal individual opinion, obviously.

LIZ:   No.

MAT:   I would rather see a programme called the Cripindales than a programme
       called Beyond Boundaries. I didn‟t watch any of this second series of Beyond
       Boundaries because I was sickened by the first series, frankly.

LIZ:   Yeah.

MAT:   I‟m sorry; I‟m gonna say what I think now.

LIZ:   Yeah, no.

MAT:   I‟m not gonna pull any punches. Obviously, for a short armed individual that
       would be difficult anyway. But I‟m not. I found it the most awful, sort of, re-
       treading, re-wheeling of rubbish charity based disability programming, which
       only seems to – basically, if anyone was enjoying themselves they weren‟t in
       the programme.

LIZ:   No.

MAT:   If their impairment was snapping visibly in front of our eyes and they were
       having a mental breakdown because of it, then they‟d be the highlight of that
       programme. And I thought I do not want to watch that kind of, frankly,
       pornography, for me, a second time.

LIZ:   It‟s the exploitation thing again, isn‟t it?

                                    Page 45 of 86

                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:   But you did didn‟t you?

LIZ:   Well, yes, for comedy…

MAT:   Every minute.

LIZ:   …and because of this. But there was…

MAT:   In-between a, sort of, deal or no deal, I‟m sure.

LIZ:   But there was one night, right, when I watched Beyond Boundaries, 9.00 „til

MAT:   Nice.

LIZ:   10 o‟clock, do you know what was on, I’m With Stupid.

MAT:   Ohhhhh.

LIZ:   I tell you, it‟s like euthanasia by the backdoor, because by the end of that hour
       and a half I wanted to kill myself.

MAT:   Is that why you had the said boil on your bum?

LIZ:   Probably, because I‟ve sat watching too much rubbish TV.

MAT:   But the thing is, now that it‟s over I think we could be a tiny bit more honest
       about I’m With Stupid.

LIZ:   Yeah.

                                  Page 46 of 86

                     Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:   You know, obviously I wanted to celebrate it and support them during it, but
       at the end…

LIZ:   Sometimes I hate being balanced and democratic, it‟s boring.

MAT:   Well, we‟re presenters, we‟re co-presenters, we‟re not allowed to have an
       opinion, unless we do nice crip, nasty crip.

LIZ:   Well, we don‟t. Isn‟t that why there‟s two of us?

MAT:   Yeah, I guess so. Well, okay, I‟m gonna say what I think. I thought it was all
       right. It wasn‟t embarrassing. It was a little bit safety safe, middle England,
       BBC, you know, which it can be sometimes, but I did think the end was a bit
       weird. They celebrated the saving of Bramble Lodge.

LIZ:   Oh, man alive.

MAT:   The Bramble Lodge is an institution.

LIZ:   Hmmm.

MAT:   I don‟t know any disabled people who have that much access to fun and funk
       that the characters in that seem to, that actually want to stay in an institution.

LIZ:   No.

MAT:   They‟d rather get some kind of independent living, wouldn‟t they?

LIZ:   I know. I mean usually, you know, if they‟re gonna close down an institution
       it‟s maybe the parents or the families that have problems with it. I know and
       I‟ve seen that reported in the news.

                                   Page 47 of 86

                     Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:   Yes.

LIZ:   But to – I just think how bloody irresponsible to go out there and one of the
       only things that we have with disability on, and you have a bunch of disabled
       people protesting using direct action that you usually associate with getting
       our rights and our freedom, to institutionalise us. Oh, yes, what do you want?
       Institutionalisation. When you want it? Now. Err, did disability politics ever
       happen? Did, err, sorry, sorry.

MAT:   I know. I think from my perspective…

LIZ:   What?

MAT:   ...„cause I was more looking at it as an actor, as a disabled actor…

LIZ:   Oh, yes.

MAT:   …you know, other disabled actors getting a chance to share their wears on
       telly, and stuff.

LIZ:   Yes.

MAT:   And it was nice to see a bit more, you know, a bit more disabled actors doing
       stuff, doing acting.

LIZ:   And on that level.

MAT:   And I think that got clouded by that.

LIZ:   Hmmm.

MAT:   But on a writing level I think it could use a tiny bit of improvement, perhaps.

                                 Page 48 of 86

                     Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:   Hmmm, I think I‟m feeling a bit ardent this month, you know.

MAT:   You are. You‟ve gone back to militant Liz Carr, haven‟t you?

LIZ:   Yeah, I know, I‟m sorry.

MAT:   Who laid down in Cardiff in 1995 in the car park.

LIZ:   But it doesn‟t stop there with my little rant about television.

MAT:   Back to it.

LIZ:   X Factor!

MAT:   Err, Kerry.

LIZ:   Kerry, disabled woman. There is a real change…

MAT:   Hold on, err, err, err, what, what, what? There‟s a disabled woman on X

LIZ:   Yes, yes.

MAT:   Why?

LIZ:   Because apparently she‟s got a not bad voice. She‟s made it through to the
       final 12.

MAT:   That‟s sick. What, she‟s been allowed to entertain people?

LIZ:   Stop it! Yes. She‟s, you know, she‟s done okay, and…

                                  Page 49 of 86

                      Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:   Can she sing, Liz?

LIZ:   She‟s all right, yeah.

MAT:   Okay.

LIZ:   Yeah, and, you know, it‟s not like she‟s dreadful…

MAT:   All right.

LIZ:   …and it‟s just a pity party, and that‟s why she‟s there, you know. There‟s
       been interesting stuff like seeing her being carried onstage sometimes when it
       was the…

MAT:   Why does she have to be carried onstage?

LIZ:   Well, apparently, „cause firstly…

MAT:   Does her wheelchair not work anymore?

LIZ:   Well, the venues weren‟t accessible, because they didn‟t anticipate there being
       the need for them to be accessible. So, she couldn‟t actually get onstage until
       four people lifted her on.

MAT:   Ohhhhh, „cause that‟s always gonna help, isn‟t it, when you‟re in a

LIZ:   Well, I mean she says that, you know, „cause she said that she agreed to that,
       that was fine, that she agreed to that being shown.

MAT:   Well, of course she agreed to it; she‟s desperate to be a star like all those X

                                    Page 50 of 86

                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:   What‟s very interesting is the way that it‟s filmed and the way…

MAT:   Oh, right.

LIZ:   ...and the way that they show you, because last week when she came on she
       was in her chair, yeah?

MAT:   A wheelchair? Yes.

LIZ:   As you‟d expect, she‟s a wheelie.

MAT:   Yeah.

LIZ:   Yeah, I think she‟s a snapback. So, she‟s got, you know, total upper body
       movement, but she just, kind of, sat there. Did a little bit of swaying. I think
       it was, like – it had sunshine in the title song.

MAT:   Did she do that ray movement with the hands?

LIZ:   No, not much.

MAT:   Okay.

LIZ:   Not much, but she was quite static. This week, Mat…

MAT:   Yes, what did she do?

LIZ:   …she was sitting on a high barstool. There was no wheelchair in sight.

MAT:   Isn‟t that dangerous?

LIZ:   I wanted to go up, run on and push her off!

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                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:   Why?

LIZ:   Ohhhhh.

MAT:   Jealousy? Is it jealousy?

LIZ:   I think it probably…

MAT:   You‟re desperate to be on reality television, aren‟t you, Liz?       We could
       probably get you on celebrity Big Brother for next time.

LIZ:   But I was reading…

MAT:   Mind you, you‟d just be at the top of the stairs. Anyway, go on.

LIZ:   But I was reading something and it was saying that apparently she‟s gonna
       appear differently in most of the weeks if carries on.

MAT:   The mind boggles.

LIZ:   So, there‟s the idea that in one, you know, four guys are gonna carry her on.

MAT:   Oh, god.

LIZ:   So, she was on a stool, but what I loved, I actually wrote this down, that, you
       know, after she sung, right?

MAT:   Yeah.

LIZ:   They all sit round and they comment, yeah?

MAT:   Yes, yes, they do.

                                   Page 52 of 86

                           Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:          Now, she did really well this week, okay?

MAT:          What, do you mean she was good?

LIZ:          Yeah, she was good.

MAT:          Okay.

LIZ:          She was sitting on her stool, yeah?

MAT:          Yeah.

LIZ:          So you didn‟t know whether she was a crippy or not. Simon Cowell actually
              sitting on her stool say, “Well, you‟re not going anywhere this week, Kerry.”
              I‟m thinking, no, „cause you‟ve taken her bloody wheels away, that‟s why,

MAT:          State the obvious.

LIZ:          It‟s like, err, so, yeah, there you go. That‟s – and then I thought it was quite
              funny that Ashley, another one of the singers, came on after it and he sang the
              lovely song, I would rather go blind than to see you walk away from me.

MAT:          Was she still sitting there?

LIZ:          Yeah, she was sitting there on the stage next to him „cause nobody had
              bothered getting her off.

MAT:          Oh, well, that‟s good.

The Ouch Podcast, democratising disability!

                                          Page 53 of 86

                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:   I think we have to come back and see what Rob‟s doing.

LIZ:   Oh, yes, it‟s the Father Christmas of Ouch. Hello, Rob.

ROB:   Hello. I‟m a magician.

MAT:   What‟s going on? You‟ve got a lot of people behind you and they sound very

ROB:   They are. There‟s an awful amount of little ones coming out in a state of
       abject fury that they have to leave, and I‟m sure there must be children who
       get locked in there ever night.

MAT:   Yeah, who go and hide.

ROB:   I‟m sure there‟s a movie plot in there somewhere.

MAT:   Oh, absolutely.

LIZ:   It sounds great.

MAT:   So, how are you doing? How‟s it been going there?

ROB:   Oh, I‟ve got a bumper array. Santa has been very, very kind this year, and I‟m
       sure – I haven‟t quite got a beard, but I do have a little bit of dandruff today,
       so I‟m hoping I can maybe, sort of, spread the love around a little bit.

MAT:   And you‟ve got a nice full sack, yeah?

ROB:   I‟m just waiting for a taxi now, so I‟m gonna be back very soon.

LIZ:   Can we sit on your knee when get back?

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                     Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

ROB:   And you are gonna be delighted. Pardon?

LIZ:   Can we sit on your knee when you get back?

MAT:   Oh, yeah.

ROB:   Would you like to sit on my knee, Liz?

LIZ:   I‟d quite like to.

MAT:   And then we can…

ROB:   Would ya?

LIZ:   Yeah, I‟d quite like to get the wheelchair on your knee.

ROB:   Right, that‟s going on from flirting to, kind of, mild assault.

MAT:   Yeah, anyway, we might burst his sack and we wouldn‟t want that, would we,

ROB:   Okay. Well, I‟ll be back very soon.

LIZ:   See you soon.

ROB:   Don‟t worry, just go to sleep now. Go to sleep and when you wake up it will
       be Christmas morning and they‟ll be gifts galore all on…

LIZ:   Yey. Thanks Santa.

MAT:   Can I have milk?

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                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:   There‟s a mice pie and a carrot for you?

ROB:   Yeah, leave the mince pie and the little bit of brandy and the Prozac.

LIZ:   Bye Santa.

ROB:   All right, I‟ll see you‟s later. Bye, bye, bye, bye.

MAT:   Sorry, Liz, did you used to leave a carrot for Santa Claus?

LIZ:   That was for Rudolph.

MAT:   Ah, for Rudolph. You left a little carrot for Rudolph, how cute.

LIZ:   Yeah. Didn‟t you?

MAT:   No, I never got visited by Santa, „cause one day I woke up at 4.00 in the
       morning and you now how excited you are when you‟re a kid?

LIZ:   Hmmm.

MAT:   You just cannot sleep, and I went to bed at, like, 4.00 in the afternoon, or
       whatever, and I woke up to see my dad creeping out, having just left the
       presents there. And the whole thing was blown overnight. I knew he didn‟t
       exist, it was actually – and I didn‟t realise it was my dad going round
       everybody‟s house giving them presents.

LIZ:   And to this day!

MAT:   Yes.

LIZ:   What a man!

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                          Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:         I know.

LIZ:         And you know when you reach 55 you‟ll have to take over that mantle, you

MAT:         Ohhhhh.

LIZ:         Ohhhhh, won‟t that be great?

MAT:         I can have ladder reins, can‟t I, on the sledge?

(Jingle: “The Ouch Podcast!”)

MAT:         I got back off tour, Liz, obviously a lot of emails. One really stuck out, and it
             was from a woman called Victoria who‟d emailed me. Lives in Kingston,
             near where I am.

LIZ:         Hmmm hmm.

MAT:         And her nephew is called Zachy, and he‟s an 11 year old kid who‟s had a few
             things happen to him and has acquired a few impairments along the way.

LIZ:         Hmmm hmm.

MAT:         So now he‟s a wheelchair user. A good looking boy, about 11, big for his age,
             and they asked me if I‟d come and chat to him in the coffee house, because he
             had some questions he wanted to ask a man, „because dad‟s not around, being
             brought up by single mum, okay?

LIZ:         Okay.

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                      Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:   So, this is what happened. I met these achingly nice people called Zachy and
       his aunty Victoria, and we were chatting in the coffee bar. And then said, “So
       Zachy, you‟ve got some questions for Mat, haven‟t you?” And I didn‟t know
       what to expect at all. I didn‟t know what was gonna happen. And he said,
       “How do you get a girlfriend when you‟re in a wheelchair?”

LIZ:   Oh.

MAT:   And I didn‟t know what to say, because, you know, we can laugh and joke and

LIZ:   Yeah, yeah.

MAT:   …but he‟s – there‟s two disabled kids in his school. The other question was,
       he finds it frustrating when all the other kids go out to play soccer and he can‟t
       play soccer.

LIZ:   Hmmm hmm.

MAT:   And that happens on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, and I said, “So what
       do you do?” He stays in the class, okay?

LIZ:   Hmmm.

MAT:   And the third question he asked was, “You know when everyone‟s staring at
       you?” And I went, “Yeah.” He said, “I keep thinking that they hate me, what
       should I do?” Please, I have to tell you, it was tearing me up a bit.

LIZ:   It must have floored you.

MAT:   What do you say, you know, you‟ve got a very impressionable person; you
       wanna be able to – and I said as positive stuff, like, how do you get a

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                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

       girlfriend? Well, that‟s easy, I say, “You get a girlfriend like everyone gets a
       girlfriend, yeah? You make friends with girls. You stop looking at them as
       objects to get and you start relating to them as people, and then one of those
       people will suddenly turn out to be, you like them a bit more than normal, and
       they like you, and then it will just naturally happen.”

LIZ:   Hmmm hmm.

MAT:   „Cause he is a nice kid, and he‟s good looking and intelligent, and all those
       things, so that will take care of itself, I think. I mean he is only 11 after all.
       But what do you do when adults are staring at you and it‟s like they hate you?

LIZ:   Hmmm.

MAT:   I mean I said to him, “They don‟t hate you; they just are interested in the way
       you do things „cause you‟re doing them differently, okay? But we know that
       that‟s what we feel.

LIZ:   Hmmm.

MAT:   You know that‟s how we feel, and I know a lot of listeners would understand

LIZ:   So does he…

MAT:   What do you say to the kids when they ask you these questions?

LIZ:   Oh, it‟s, I know, and again, it‟s one of those, you know, you go along your
       everyday life, don‟t you?

MAT:   Yeah.

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                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:   You know, you have your own way of getting around things, you know your
       barriers, whatever.

MAT:   Yeah.

LIZ:   And then it‟s like, wham, I think, you know, when people ask you certain
       questions, especially if it‟s another crip and it‟s so from the heart.

MAT:   Yeah, and it really was.

LIZ:   And so, oh, my god, okay.

MAT:   So, what I‟m asking…

LIZ:   Yeah.

MAT:   …if listeners wouldn‟t mind, you know, no, you know, two page essays, but
       any really helpful suggestions of what you would say to Zachy would be really
       appreciated. I know Zachy you‟ll be listening to this Podcast, „cause I told
       you I was doing it, and it‟s nice to know that you‟re listening, and hello
       Victoria. But, you know, hopefully some listeners will be able to come in and
       give slightly better tips than the ones I was able to give, „cause it felt – I mean
       I did my best, obviously, but I just didn‟t feel it was good enough.

LIZ:   I think the staring thing, I mean think what would be great was that you met
       him and went out with him kind of thing.

MAT:   Yeah, and I will do so again, you know, now that I‟ve met him I‟m not gonna
       leave him, you know…

LIZ:   „Cause we get, you know, you get stared at as a disabled person all the time, I
       mean if you‟ve got an obvious impairment, and it‟s, like, I think there‟s

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                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

       nothing better than when you‟re in a group. I mean if – that‟s the time I feel
       totally powerful.

MAT:   Yeah.

LIZ:   Or even if we‟re, you know, we‟re wandering in the street, you know, when
       we‟ve been together, kind of thing.

MAT:   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

LIZ:   Of course people look at us; we look a bizarre couple.

MAT:   Yes.

LIZ:   And, you know, but it‟s like you think, ha, ha, ha, it doesn‟t really matter, we
       take up our space; you can stare if you want, but you just – I think you just
       feel so much stronger when you‟re with a group.

MAT:   Yeah.

LIZ:   So I think just you actually being with him would be really important as a

MAT:   Well, I mean it did seem to hit a little, you know, he did seem a tiny bit
       cheerier, although I gave him a lot to think about, I know that. But the other
       thing is, obviously he‟s in primary school now and things get a lot better in
       secondary school, you know, because he‟s really into doing drama and
       communication, and I think that‟s obviously very useful for a disabled person
       if you can, you know. And I‟m like, well, join the drama group. They‟re not
       going to tell you no, you can‟t join, are they?

LIZ:   Yeah.

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                      Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:   They‟ll obviously trying to integrate him and everything, hopefully, as modern
       drama teachers would always try to do, I‟m sure. So, all he has to do is grit
       his teeth, hone his girlfriend skills for the next nine months, and then he‟ll be
       in big school and everything should be a lot better.

LIZ:   Yeah. So, he‟s in mainstream?

MAT:   Yeah, he‟s in mainstream school. You know, she talked about that, Victoria,
       and they made, you know, they were faced with a decision and they went for
       the education. That was their words.

LIZ:   Yeah, no, no.

MAT:   And yeah, I can‟t blame them for that.

LIZ:   No, but actually it just links with something that happened recently, „cause in
       the last month I went to a friend‟s barbecue, yeah?

MAT:   Yeah.

LIZ:   And it was – she had all of her friends from school. In fact, from [inaudible
       44:10]. Remember we gave a big shout out to them?

MAT:   Hmmm.

LIZ:   Yeah.

MAT:   Excellent.

LIZ:   Well, they‟d all been there, like, 20 odd years ago, right?

MAT:   Right, yeah.

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                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:   So, I knew one friend, my friend who‟d organised the barbecue, but they were
       pretty much having a school reunion, and that was – and it was great; it was
       great to hear them, because I went to mainstream and it was such a different
       experience, yeah?

MAT:   Yeah.

LIZ:   I was so square, yet because, you know, mum had to take me to school and do
       all that. I couldn‟t do – I really empathise with that bloody, you know, you
       have to sit in the library…

MAT:   Yeah.

LIZ:   …when they‟re out doing everything you can‟t do. Or I had to sit in the
       library when it was, like, it was chemistry, or physics, or all of – anything I
       couldn‟t get to, you know.

MAT:   Oh, „cause it was inaccessible, the classroom?

LIZ    A lot of it was inaccessible.

MAT:   Oh, great, yeah.

LIZ:   So there was all of that, you know, but these, you know, these were talking
       about school. Now, I, you know, I‟m glad I didn‟t go to segregated school in
       actual fact and didn‟t get sent away, but the experiences this group of

MAT:   Yeah, I know.

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                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:   …who‟d gone to special school and it had been a boarding school, was
       amazing in some level. I know, you know, this is not saying it‟s a good thing
       particularly, but they did have a behind the bike sheds equivalent, yeah?

MAT:   Yeah.

LIZ:   They did have a – they had a camaraderie; they had a community.

MAT:   Indeed.

LIZ:   And they grew up being able to share, you know, what‟s it like being a crip
       and growing up? They could talk to each other about it.

MAT:   I wish I‟d asked Lawrence Clark a bit more about that actually, „cause he went
       to a so-called special school, didn‟t he?

LIZ:   Hmmm.

MAT:   And he‟s got a fair amount to say about it. And I know the educational
       standards of them have got a lot better now.

LIZ:   Yeah.

MAT:   And yet, you know…

LIZ:   Well, it‟s like, how do we get, you know, „cause I think sending children
       away, I‟m not, you know, any sort of boarding school I‟m not up for that
       anyway, you know personally. So, how do you, if, you know, we‟re looking
       for mainstream and we‟re looking for inclusive education, or many disabled
       people want that, how do you have that but still have a sense of as being a
       group in a community? Where can you meet? And I actually think, you
       know, I think Ouch is like really has attracted a lot of people who don‟t have

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                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

       anywhere else to go, or it‟s their sense of community. And you got that in the
       petition, people were saying that.

MAT:   Yeah.

LIZ:   It was amazing.

MAT:   Absolutely. And I said to Zachy, “Have you ever seen the Ouch website and
       have you listened to our Podcasts? They‟re not too rude. Mum should let him
       listen to them, you know, but also they take writing by kids as well, don‟t
       they, sometimes?

LIZ:   Hmmm, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

MAT:   It‟s not just for adults, is it, after all. So, hopefully, Zachy, you‟re listening to
       this and hopefully other listeners if you‟ve got any suggestions for Zachy or
       any ladies out there would like to give him a message, and then…

LIZ:   He‟s 11. He‟s 11.

MAT:   Okay, sorry. Or any girls who want to say hi! You know, anyway, that was it.
       It was just…

LIZ:   No.

MAT:   …it kind of knocked me for six a bit, that‟s all, and, you know, I wanted to
       throw it out to the right people and the Ouch listeners, and the Podcast
       listeners are those people.

LIZ:   But I feel kind of pleased in a – not about Zach, yeah?

MAT:   Zachy.

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                     Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:   Zachy‟s situation, but just like you say, there‟s been things this month where
       I‟ve been a bit blown away as well, you know, things that I‟ve watched on TV.

MAT:   Yeah.

LIZ:   Or things that I‟ve read, you know, the people that rang up for 5 Live. There
       was a story about disabled people getting back into employment anyway, and
       it was in – I read it on the Scotsman website, yeah?

MAT:   Okay, yeah.

LIZ:   And after the article about disabled people getting back into work…

MAT:   Yeah.

LIZ:   …there were, you know, people who‟d read it could comment.

MAT:   Right.

LIZ:   And some of the comments, Mat, were like, you know, well these people are a
       burden on the state, why should we worry about them? I don‟t think disabled
       people should be born in the first place. This was just on a – and I know
       there‟s all sorts of views out there, but a bit like you were, phew!

MAT:   Yeah, you forget that people think that.

LIZ:   You just forget.

MAT:   And sometimes it seems like they increasingly think that, don‟t they?

LIZ:   Hmmm.

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                           Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:          And I just have to remind everybody out there, you know, who might – not
              that the listeners are thinking that we should all be killed at birth.

LIZ:          If it‟s a bad Podcast they might.

MAT:          You know, that it‟s been fiscally proved, and don‟t you hate having to bloody
              argue disability on a fiscal level. We shouldn‟t have to, but it‟s been fiscally
              proved by the ADA that the amount of money it takes to adapt a disabled
              person to access them into work is always far exceeded by the amount that
              they then produce for that company. And so, as long as you access a disabled
              person into their workspace, they become a producer, not so much of a
              consumer of the resources of the country.

LIZ:          Hmmm hmm.

MAT:          So, you know, get out of my face with that argument about the useless burden
              on society, yeah? Just makes society a little bit more accessible and we‟ll
              show you who can make some damn money, and you ain‟t getting any of

LIZ:          Oh, you tell „em.! Now it’s time for Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable!

LIZ:          In our last Podcast we threatened to bury it, but here it is back again,
              Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable.

MAT:          Yeah.

LIZ:          It seems you don‟t want us to kill it off. You‟d rather see the disability and
              not the person, which makes me a little sad actually listeners.

                                          Page 67 of 86

                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:   Our caller is apparently ready and waiting to play, and his name is Nat. Hello,

NAT:   Hi, how you doing?

LIZ:   We‟re good, thank you, Nat. And tell us where you are?

NAT:   I‟m in a restaurant in the middle of London.

MAT:   Okay. What do you do, Nat?

NAT:   What do I do? I work for the RAF.

LIZ:   The RAF.

MAT:   Right, okay. Good, god. Okay.

LIZ:   And help us. Okay, describe yourself to us?

NAT:   Describe myself?

LIZ:   Without giving away your impairment.

NAT:   Well, yes, I‟m kind of tall, handsome, enigmatic, that‟s about it, really.

LIZ:   With a crackly phone.      Okay.    Right, the rules, Vegetable, Vegetable or
       Vegetable is a clever disability interpretation of the pilot game Animal,
       Vegetable or Mineral. In the game, the two hosts of the Ouch Podcast have 90
       seconds to guess what is wrong with the disabled caller on the line by asking a
       series of fiendlessly intelligent questions. I haven‟t finished, Nat. The caller
       must only answer yes or no. It is both classic and therapeutic.

                                  Page 68 of 86

                       Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

NAT:      I‟m sorry.

LIZ:      No need to apologise.

MAT:      No, Nat, to take part in this intrusive and unpleasant game, the rules clearly
          state you have to be disabled. Nat, are you disabled?

NAT:      Yes.

LIZ:      Remember, only answer yes or no. The 90 seconds starts now!

NAT:      Okay.


MAT:      Can you reach?

NAT:      Yes.

LIZ:      Can you walk?

NAT:      Yes.

MAT:      Ever been banned from a café?

NAT:      No.

LIZ:      Have you got an assistance dog?

NAT:      No.

MAT:      Do you have leaver taps?

                                     Page 69 of 86

                     Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

NAT:   No.

LIZ:   Are you incontinent?

NAT:   No.

MAT:   Do you have one of those toilets that washes your arse afterwards?

NAT:   No.

LIZ:   Do people have to stretch you by lifting your head in a rather strange manner?

NAT:   No.

MAT:   Were you brought up in an institution?

NAT:   Maybe, yes.

LIZ:   Are you the size of Tom Thumb?

NAT:   No.

LIZ:   Hmmm, you‟re not a dwarf then?

NAT:   No.

LIZ:   Oh, bugger!

MAT:   Have you go one of those easy to open can opener, opener things?

NAT:   Yes.

                                 Page 70 of 86

                   Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:   Have you got a grip stick?

NAT:   No.

LIZ:   Have you got a sock put-a-on-er?

NAT:   No.

MAT:   Have you got a membership to Scope?

NAT:   No.

MAT:   Oh.

LIZ:   Are you a friend of Lawrence Clark‟s?

NAT:   No.

LIZ:   (Gasps).

MAT:   Okay, did you go to special school?

NAT:   Yes.

LIZ:   Yes. Oh, goodness!

MAT:   Are you barren?

NAT:   You wish, no.

MAT:   You‟re not? So, you‟ve given birth? Okay, fine.

                                Page 71 of 86

                           Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:         So, you walk?

NAT:         Yes.

LIZ:         He walks. Do you walk with a wobble?

NAT:         No. I guess so.

MAT:         Hmmm, a slight denial going on there.

NAT:         Yeah.

LIZ:         Yeah, are you sure you‟re aware what your condition is?

MAT:         How many seconds…

(Claxon sounds)

LIZ:         Oh, no, no.

MAT:         Do we have to say now, or is it too late?

LIZ:         Well, I mean sounds like a big spastic to me.

MAT:         I think you‟ve got cerebral palsy.

LIZ:         Do you know what I mean!

NAT:         I think you‟ve guessed it right.

MAT:         I didn‟t understand that one! What?

                                        Page 72 of 86

                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:   He could be right.

MAT:   I could be right. Whoa! Yey, yey, yey.

LIZ:   Do we get a rucksack? Do we get a rucksack?

MAT:   I want spacksack attack, man!         Nat, fantastic.   You have given us the

NAT:   That‟s all right.

MAT:   …present you could ever have given us.

LIZ:   Thank you very much.

NAT:   [Inaudible – 52:21].

LIZ:   We‟re very excited.

MAT:   Keep talking, Liz.

LIZ:   Yes, so when people find out that you‟ve got, you know, spasticity what do
       they normally ask you?

NAT:   The usual kind of stuff, you know. Have you always been like that? And, you

LIZ:   Oh, yes.

NAT:   …that kind of stuff.

LIZ:   The usual stuff. Oh, yes.

                                   Page 73 of 86

                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:   Okay. So, Nat, just a final question, you‟re in a restaurant, you say?

NAT:   Yes.

MAT:   Are you wearing a bib?

NAT:   No, but I am wearing a very nice ironed shirt that I bought yesterday.

LIZ:   Nice.

MAT:   Okay. As long as it‟s just…

LIZ:   But presumably they‟ve sat you at a table away from other people so they
       won‟t get upset by you‟re eating?

NAT:   Well, I demanded the table by the window.

LIZ:   Ohhhhh.

MAT:   Ohhhhh.

LIZ:   Yeah, exhibitionist!

MAT:   Yes.

LIZ:   Yeah, we know about that. Nat, thank you. You‟ve made us very happy,
       because we win we get spacsacks. We get little Ouch rucksacks, so we‟re
       very excited by that, „cause we win and you don‟t.

MAT:   But all‟s not lost, because…

NAT:   Do you know what, I‟m really happy for you.

                                 Page 74 of 86

                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:   Thank you.

MAT:   Oh, well, thank you, Nat. That‟s very brave of you as well.

LIZ:   And thank you for coming on. Yes.

MAT:   Just one thing, I think – I‟m so happy to have my own spacsack now that I‟m
       going to give Nat a copy of my album of Thalidomide, The Musical.

NAT:   That would be great.

LIZ:   He genuinely sounded enthusiastic. That‟s good acting there, Nat.

MAT:   Yeah, yeah, yeah, well done. And you‟ve got to have something for your
       trouble, haven‟t you, poor lad. Anyway…

LIZ:   Thanks, Nat.

NAT:   [Inaudible – 53:53].

LIZ:   Yeah, I didn‟t understand what he said there. Okay, time to go.

NAT:   Okay.

MAT:   See you mate.

LIZ:   See you. Bye.

MAT:   Nice one. Thanks, bye.

LIZ:   And if you wanna take part in whatever quiz we‟re doing next time, if we‟re
       still here; if we‟ve still got the will to live, email us at

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                          Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

             That‟s       We‟ve not had enough volunteers lately, so get
             emailing; don‟t let us down listeners.

(Jingle: “The Ouch Podcast!”)

LIZ:         It‟s Christmas morning, Mat.

MAT:         Oh, splendid.

LIZ:         Ohhhhh. Look, look, hello, Santa.

MAT:         Santa‟s here!

ROB:         It‟s Father Crossmas.

MAT:         Ohhhhh.

LIZ:         Ohhhhh.

ROB:         Hey!

MAT:         Oh, so, we sent our favourite intrepid albino to Hamleys toy store to see if he
             could get us a disability related toy.

LIZ:         Rob, what have you brought us back? Come on, excite us.

ROB:         Okay, I will try my very best. All right. First, bulging sack number 1.

LIZ:         What‟s in your bag? What‟s in your bag?

MAT:         Ohhhhh.

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                     Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

ROB:   And…

MAT:   (Gasps).

LIZ:   (Gasps). I can barely breathe.

ROB:   Hang on, hang on. Here it is. Here it is. Look, look, look. It‟s a Cripply
       Piggly, and it‟s having an epileptic fit right in front of you. Okay, I don‟t
       know if you can hear that, but this pig is having a really, really savage attack,
       and it vibrates and it‟s not a nice vibration.

MAT:   At quite a rate, listeners.

ROB:   And it‟s really quite a disturbing vibration.

LIZ:   I think I‟d like that.

ROB:   And it‟s got a few articulacy problems as well, and it‟s got rather demented
       eyes. Liz, do you want to take that?

LIZ:   Hmmm, fine.

MAT:   Oh, my god, it‟s actually quite disturbing.

LIZ:   Look at him!

MAT:   It‟s moving across towards – anyway, it‟s gone now.

LIZ:   Oh, look at this.

MAT:   What else have you got?

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                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

ROB:   This is a Mr Potato Head. Now, if you‟re not aware what Mr Potato Head is…

MAT:   It‟s kind of Shakespeare, isn‟t it?

ROB:   That‟s right, yes. And also, I think Cezanne did quite a good job of painting it
       as well.

MAT:   Ohhhhh.

LIZ:   Ohhhhh.

ROB:   It‟s – Mr Potato Head is essentially a big toy potato with a big smiley face and
       it has detachable limbs. So, it has arms, legs, some sort of commode device

MAT:   Oh, my gosh, all the limbs are separate.

ROB:   And an umbrella. And so what you can do, I thought, is if you‟re about to
       embark upon a major operation in 2007, you can have a vague – well, actually
       quite accurate idea of what you‟re gonna look like after you‟ve had the limb
       amputated by getting Mr Potato Head to remove said limb. Therefore, in a
       kind of potatoey way you can see what you‟re gonna look like after your
       major amputation of 2007.

MAT:   Well, that‟s amazing.

LIZ:   Ah, Mr Potato amputee.

ROB:   Mr Potato amputee.

LIZ:   Look at it. Mr Potato amputee; I love it!

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                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

ROB:   I also thought I‟d go for an old classic.

LIZ:   Oh, look!

ROB:   Okay, this is a game of Twister.

MAT:   Hey!

LIZ:   Hey!

ROB:   Which is obviously brilliant if you have a limb missing for a very, very short
       game of Twister. I thought that would be good. Oh, I fell over; don‟t worry,
       we‟ll play another game. All right.

LIZ:   Can we play that in our Christmas one?

ROB:   I thought I‟d also get – this is a Doctor Who Tardis police box.

MAT:   Oh, my…

ROB:   ...‘cause I thought it looks quite a lot like a disabled toilet.

MAT:   Ohhhhh.

LIZ:   Ohhhhh.

ROB:   So I thought we could have one of those.             And I opened my Christmas
       crackers early and read all the jokes.

LIZ:   What about the Retardis, Rob?

ROB:   Hey, I don‟t get it! Anyway.

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                      Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:   Ha, retard?

ROB:   Shut up, Liz.

LIZ:   Sorry, this is your big moment.

ROB:   The next one, and this is actually the most expensive gift, this is the candy
       grabber, and now if you ever went to a tawdry seaside town and went to the
       arcades, you will remember that there‟s the little toy where you put the money
       in and there‟s a little metal metallic grabber, which goes down into a pit of
       toys and you have to control it and pick out the milky way or the cuddly elf, or
       whatever. So, I thought with this one you can just fill – because this is your
       own little candy grabber box, you can fill it full of bus passes, DOA forms…

MAT:   Oh, yes.

ROB:   …walking sticks, and then play and see what disability related gift you can
       pull out. So, it‟s a candy grabber for disability things.

LIZ:   And that claw thing, it‟s like Abble Hamser, isn‟t it?

ROB:   It is a little bit, yes. Yes, it is a little bit.

LIZ:   Which is fantastic.

ROB:   And finally…

MAT:   Oh, he‟s got more.

ROB:   This is for everyone. This is a My Little Pony, which for some bizarre reason
       is in a people carrier. My Little Pony in a people carrier, and it‟s…

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                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

MAT:   A bit of a theme.

ROB:   And it‟s looking quite happy about it, but this goes back to my original point
       in that Hamleys had a lot of gifts, but it didn‟t have the gift that I really

MAT:   And what was that?

ROB:   It was a real life Shetland guide pony. That‟s what I wanted. Damon the
       producer phoned me up last week and told me he was trying to get me a
       Shetland guide pony. And I was coming in today and went in, there‟s no
       troughs, there‟s no straw; it‟s just a grimy, dilapidated BBC studio.

LIZ:   I know.

ROB:   Where‟s my guide pony? There‟s no guide pony, and so this is the closest I
       could get.

LIZ:   We tried.

ROB:   Well, what went wrong?

MAT:   We did try and get you a guide pony ride, okay?

LIZ:   We really tried.

ROB:   What about a guide chimp? Would that be all right?

MAT:   I don‟t know. I don‟t know.

LIZ:   We‟ve talked about assistance pigs, monkeys.

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                    Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

ROB:   Assistance pigs?

LIZ:   Yeah.

MAT:   I‟ve not heard of a guide chimp.

ROB:   I‟d like a guide chimp, „cause the thing is, the only problem would be that
       you‟d have to have a very, sort of, cheeky based existence, wouldn‟t you?
       You wouldn‟t be able to do anything except a cheap based life.

MAT:   Oh, unless you were Tarzan.

LIZ:   Sensible.

ROB:   Guide chimp will you take me work. No. Well, throw bananas at old people.
       All right. So…

LIZ:   Isn‟t that what you do in the front office anyway?

ROB:   Yeah, probably. Well, no, it‟s not bananas, I tell you.

LIZ:   Okay, if you wanna win all these toys from Rob, email us and tell us why you
       deserve them. Oh, yes, we‟ll also throw in some Ouch goodies, so email us at That‟s ouch…

MAT:   Oh, sorry.

LIZ:   …

MAT:   You can also email us on the same address if you want to be part of our
       specially invited audience for the Christmas Podcast,, if you
       can make your way to London under your own steam that is.

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                            Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:           Some of them will have to start now.

MAT:           Ah, stop that fucking pig, will you. Sorry.

LIZ:           It‟s causing – did you just swear?

MAT:           It‟s not like an epileptic, you can‟t just hold it down until it stops.

ROB:           Oh, you can.

(Fits of laughter)

MAT:           Okay, come on, do the ending, Liz. Do the ending. I want to get down the
               pub, girl.

LIZ:           That‟s the end.

ROB:           Mat can‟t be trusted with the Cripply Piggly. Give it here. I‟m the one that
               cares in this relationship.

LIZ:           I want it back!

MAT:           It‟s stopped now.

LIZ:           Hee, hee.

MAT:           Is it the end of the Podcast, Liz, or what?

LIZ:           I think it might be the end of the Podcast. Our thanks to the Producer, Damon
               Rose, as ever.

MAT:           Rose.

                                             Page 83 of 86

                             Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:          Researcher, Emma Tracey.

MAT:          Emma Tracey.

LIZ:          Steve Palmer.

MAT:          Palmer.

LIZ:          Studio Ops. Mat Williams for all the music. Executive Producer, Chris…

MAT:          Warren.

LIZ:          And everyone else who has helped make the Podcast what it is, you know who
              you are. Now, here‟s Mat to plug his own music that we‟re playing out with.

MAT:          And I‟m very thrilled. Yes, so, this is from my own…


LIZ:          It is from Thalidomide?

MAT:          The DVD‟s coming out soon. If you want to know more about it, www…

LIZ:          What‟s it called?

MAT:, but there‟s a poor young disabled boy who‟s in a mainstream
              school; he‟s 11, he‟s disabled; he‟s got small flippers instead of hands, and
              they‟re calling him a mong, and they‟re calling him a spastic, and so he retorts
              in this very fashion.

Go on Glib, you can do it.

                                        Page 84 of 86

                              Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

LIZ:            Bye everyone.

MAT:            Oh, bye.

LIZ:            See you next time.

MAT:            Oh, bye.

LIZ:            Christmas!

Well, talk to the flipper, „cause the face don‟t care.
It‟s like a stripper with no pubic hair.
I can see the lips moving, but it ain‟t improving the effect that your words have on me.
We will never see life through the same lense.
Yes, I ain‟t got no thumbs.
But you ain‟t got no friends.
Through your insults you sneer, but I know it is clear cutting into yourself loathing head,
Well be a popularity from that teasing vulgarity.
Between your mouth and your brain there‟s a gulf and it‟s plain, there is too much disparity
The only reason Jane moved her desk position is because you stink of (beep).
But you‟ll know now that I actually, you know, come to think of it, stopped the milkman
from a paperboy.
And oh, have you heard, to get you ugly, she had to hump a rotting turd.
Which accounts for the foul stench that comes from you, yeah.
You leave a trail of that famous perfume, essence of pooh.
And while your ignorant flirting makes you think me you‟re hurting.
All the times make me rant my malicious content.
Over your words you do trip.
Of floundering like a kipper.
So go drink some paint stripper and just talk to the flipper.

                                           Page 85 of 86

                              Ouch Podcast 8: October 2006

„Cause the face don‟t care!


                                       Page 86 of 86

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