Outfitter Interview Questionnaire

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					Appendices


Outfitter Interview Questionnaire

Business Operations

            1. What do you think are the reasons behind the decline in the # of guests to your
               lodge over the past 5 years? What “ “ “ “ “ increase” in the “”””” 5 years.
               *Check their responses on the survey to determine this question’s wording for
               each interviewee.
            2. How do you think the industry’s participants can work together to turn things
               around and slow or reverse such a decline in business? *Check responses of
               survey.
            3. What are your thoughts on a group purchasing organization for NWT fishing
               lodges and outfitters?
            4. What type of outside support do you feel would assist the industry in reversing or
               slowing the decline?
            5. What, in your opinion, can be done to help ease the high cost of doing business as
               a fishing lodge in the NWT? What can government do? What can the industry
               participants themselves do?
            6. What kind of support have your suppliers offered you in the past? ie. Co-
               marketing opportunities with local airlines.

Marketing

            7. What kind of assistance for marketing would you like to see from NWT Tourism
                or GNWT ITI?
            8. What types of new marketing initiatives would you like to see from a regional
                perspective? ie. NWT Tourism/ITI regional initiatives.
            9. Have you had to shift your marketing advertising and marketing plan in the past
                few years to address the shift in the market? If “yes”, ask how it changed; if “no”,
                ask why they feel their marketing strategies have been successful.
            10. Compared to how you market your fishing operation today, how do you see this
                changing in the future?
            11. Are you going to change your product/service offerings in the next couple of
                years to broaden your customer base? *Check survey responses
            12. What marketing strategies from competitive destinations do you feel are superior
                in attracting the sport fishing market?
            13. In your opinion, what competitive sport fishing destinations do an effective job at
                attracting the sports fisherman from a marketing perspective?




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                         70
Clientele

            14. How are your clientele changing demographically if they have changed at all?
                Tell me about your clientele:
            • Age?
            • Ethnic background?
            • Origin?
            • Gender?
            • Traveling with family or friends?
            • Income?
            • $ spent?
            • Length of trips?
            • Repeat or New clients?

Market Barriers

            15. What major problems, trends and barriers (other than cost) have you experienced
                in retaining and expanding market share? Specific examples could include 9/11,
                SARS, mad cow or the higher price of fishing in the NWT relative to competing
                destinations.
            16. In the past, did you own/operate your own aircraft to service your lodge? Did the
                regulations from the Canadian Transport Authority, restricting lodge owners from
                owning and operating their own planes affect your operation? Please explain.

Human Resources

            17. How many people do you employ each season?
            18. Describe your typical employee by the following job title.
            19. Guide
            20. Manager
            21. Cook
            22. Housekeeper
            23. If you could create an ideal employee, what characteristics would this person
                have?
            24. What challenges do you encounter in the area of employee hiring or in employee
                retention?

    Ingredients for Success

            25. What do you feel are the key ingredients to running a successful sport fishing
                operation?




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        71
Outfitter Interviews – Highlights

The following section provides a sample of the responses to several of the phone interview
questions which were asked of the outfitters who participated in this assessment. For complete
responses to the phone interviews conducted with the industry outfitters for this assessment,
please see the transcribed interviews section which follows in the Appendix of this report.


Interview Question:
“What do you think are the reasons behind the changes in your revenue over the past 5
years? What are the reasons behind the increase or decrease?”


    •   Can’t afford to market at enough trade shows.
    •   Not enough young fisherman exist to take the spots left by older anglers.
    •   Bad exchange rate. Hightened border security and border difficulties. High airline costs.
        Other travel options such as Costa Rica
    •   9/11 really hurt business in 2003 and 2004 as we book our seasons 2 years out.
    •   Our business increased every year except in 2004 when late ice caused a short season.
    •   High airline prices have been the biggest problem.
    •   High fuel and marketing prices.
    •   Mostly 9/11.
    •   Business was getting better for 3 straight years and now it’s down this year and I’m not
        sure why about either.
    •   Not enough money for marketing.
    •   My business has remained unchanged over the past five seasons.
    •   Aging population of anglers – young people not fishing. Bad relations with the U.S.
        High Canadian dollar value v.s. U.S.
    •   Poor government support.
    •   The U.S. economy hasn’t been that good.
    •   International competition from other destinations such as Venezuala and Russia.
    •   I wasn’t actively promoting it (my lodge) for 5 years.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                          72
Interview Question:
“How do you think the industry’s participants can work together to turn things around
and slow or reverse such a decline in business?”


    •   Group needs to put pressure on the airlines to get better rates.
    •   They can’t – it doesn’t make sense.
    •   Don’t know how they could work together.
    •   Would be tough to do as the industry is very competitive.
    •   Air transport – reduce costs by grouping together.
    •   Bring all of the stakeholders together.
    •   Look to new markets like Europe and Asia.
    •   Do a better job at marketing the NWT as a destination. Instead of just trading the same
        customers amongst the competitors. Joint marketing effort.
    •   Co-op advertising. Did it before with economic development.


Interview Question:
“What are your thoughts on a group purchasing organization for NWT fishing lodges and
outfitters?”


    •   Yes.
    •   Definitely.
    •   Great idea, especially for insurance.
    •   They would participate.
    •   No.
    •   In favour of it.
    •   Yes, for boats and motors too.
    •   Thinks that maybe air charter costs could be brought down through such an organization.
    •   Other industry organizations do this.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                         73
Interview Question:
“What type of outside support do you feel would assist the industry in reversing or slowing
a decline?”


    •   Marketing support.
    •   Biggest expense is flight costs. Anything the government could do to ease this expense.
    •   Financing assistance. Getting loans for sport fishing operations is difficult. Especially
        for non-Canadian owners.
    •   Less regulations. Restrictions on fly-out fishing lakes by government creates uncertainty
        for operators.
    •   Too much red tape. Each year you need new licenses to operate – this is difficult.
    •   The government needs to give NWT Tourism more money to market the NWT to
        Americans.
    •   NWT Tourism should do a better job at linking outfitters with new business opportunities
        and outbound, tourism contacts in other countries.
    •   More advertising.
    •   Encourage NWT Tourism to become members of outside fishing organizations.
    •   More media coverage of the NWT outfitted sport fishing industry.
    •   Sport fishing trade shows paid for by NWT Tourism.


Interview Question:
“What, in your opinion, can be done to help ease the high cost of doing business as a fishing
lodge in the NWT? What can government do? What can the industry participants
themselves do?”


    •   Airfare subsidies
    •   Marketing Subsidies. Airline tickets north of Winnipeg and Edmonton are way too high.
    •   Some sort of rebate or subsidy for using or switching to alternative power sources such as
        wind or solar power.
    •   Tax rebates on fuel.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                           74
    •   Raise outfitter rates.
    •   Too many government fees and red tape – these need to be reduced.
    •   Group purchasing co-operative
    •   Biggest costs are air charters and fuel. However, Queen Charlotte Island lodges charge
        more and are doing better.
    •   Subsidies on fuel taxes, like the government does for the diamond mines and for farmers.
    •   There is nothing the government can do.
    •   Make outfitter’s gas purchases road-tax exempt as they don’t use the fuel for road based
        purposes.


Interview Question:
“What kind of support have your suppliers offered you in the past? i.e. co-marketing
opportunities with local airlines.”


    •   Some support in terms of discounts from local air charter companies.
    •   Co-marketing opportunity at trade shows with a local air charter company.
    •   Better financing terms with suppliers during tough times.
    •   No price increases from some suppliers.
    •   Nothing.
    •   Packaged outfitting services with an airline company and this package was sold through
        the airline’s vacation brochure.
    •   Negotiated free passes and discounts with local airlines based on outfitter’s sales volume
        with the airline.
    •   When they had a lodge in Saskatchewan, the government used to pay for a direct charter
        from Denver to Saskatoon. The charter was organized through the Saskatchewan
        Outfitters Association.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        75
Interview Question:
“What kind of assistance for marketing would you like to see from NWT Tourism or
GNWT ITI?”


    •   Old, consumer show/trade show program should be brought back – subsidies to travel to
        shows.
    •   Co-op advertising – more opportunities.
    •   FAM trips. Free trip giveaways – government subsidizes the operator.
    •   Use Ontario’s old trade-show program of 18-20 years ago when the Ontario government
        would pay for the lodge’s trade show booths and additional expenses when traveling to
        and from trade shows.
    •   Direct cash subsidies.
    •   Less expensive ad space in the Explorer’s Guide.
    •   NWT Tourism could provide graphic designers to help outfitters design their
        advertisements. Provide marketing courses (training) for things like how to best present
        your company at trade shows and general marketing.
    •   Website design assistance.
    •   More assistance for small outfitters. Not just the big lodges.
    •   Bigger advertising budget.
    •   Advertise more during difficult times.
    •   Marketing rebates.
    •   NWT Tourism should go to more sport shows in the U.S.
    •   NWT Tourism should spend more money on their internet presence. Wants to see link
        for NWT Tourism website on all other travel websites.
    •   Wants NWT Tourism to pay sport fishing show hosts to come the the NWT to film
        fishing shows for TV.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       76
Interview Question:
“What types of new marketing initiatives would you like to see from a regional
perspective? i.e. NWT/ITI regional initiatives?”


    •   Magazines, T.V. and FAM tours.
    •   Purity of the environment and wildlife should be promoted as well as northern lights.
    •   NWT has no brand recognition in the U.S. All marketing dollars should be spent
        promoting the NWT brand in the U.S. only – not in Europe and Japan etc.
    •   Brand NWT as the last frontier for wilderness fishing and emphasize this on the NWT
        Tourism website.
    •   NWT Tourism focuses too much on summer experiences and aurora viewing. Market
        winter activities more.
    •   Target non-U.S. markets like Japan and Europe.
    •   More focus on fishing and eco-tours.
    •   NWT Tourism has to market the region as a whole. Hunting, fishing, and eco tourism all
        together and not piece-meal.
    •   Target a younger generation.
    •   Not important. Branding is not helpful.
    •   Operators/outfitters should be included in the marketing group from NWT Tourism that
        travels to trade shows in Europe. Not just government people.
    •   Re-branding.
    •   More money. Like the Yukon, with a $12-$15 million tourism budget.
    •   New initiatives for eco tourism and winter activities.
    •   Direct mail campaigns.
    •   Push and focus on region.
    •   Television coverage for the region through fishing shows.
    •   Target marketing. Visit the NWT TV ads.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       77
Interview Question:
“Have you had to shift your advertising and marketing plan in the past few years to
address the shift in the market? If “yes”, how so?”


    •   Less money for marketing
    •   Not really.
    •   No.
    •   Sport shows are dying, attendance is down and the quality of customers coming through
        the doors at trade shows is down. Internet is the place to be as well as TV shows.
    •   Don’t know.
    •   Been focusing more on the local market and European markets.
    •   Going to be targeting the Rocky Mountain States.
    •   Less trade shows – more internet.
    •   More focus on Alberta. Less on sports shows in Eastern U.S.
    •   More trade shows, less magazine ads (other than the main ones like the NWT Explorer’s
        guide).


Interview Question:
“Compared to how you market your fishing operation today, how do you see this changing
in the future?”


    •   Going to market the lodge as the # 1 trophy pike lodge in the world.
    •   Focus more on the Japanese market.
    •   Less and less involvement with trade/sports shows.
    •   Don’t know.
    •   Focus more on international markets like Germany.
    •   Wants to target local business accounts.
    •   Wants to have a website with links from other sites around the world.
    •   More focus on the internet.
    •   Not so much promotion of fishing. Perhaps something else.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                    78
    •   Promote the ‘resort’ experience and the experience of being in the NWT more. Women
        guests are becoming more prevalent.
    •   More trade shows.
    •   More USA trade shows next year.


Interview Question:
“Are you going to change your product/service offerings in the next couple of years to
broaden your customer base?”


    •   No
    •   Stick with fishing. However, if the government changes the rules on bear hunting, then
        they will offer bear hunting as well.
    •   Not really.
    •   Fewer day trips. More week-long tours.
    •   Yes.
    •   Add a lodge or a tent camp in the East Arm area for winter and summer.
    •   Not likely. Maybe add rock climbing or outpost camps.
    •   Yes, but only if they can afford it.
    •   Hopes to if the local Indian Band goes along with it.
    •   Will eventually be getting into winter activities – winter lodge eventually. Develop
        northern lights trips for the fall season.
    •   Promote Yellowknife and the experience of being in the NWT more. Package with tour-
        wholesalers. More focus on targeting couples.
    •   No. But will enhance the experiences they offer.
    •   Yes, we are adding guided fishing. Guest fished on their own before.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      79
Interview Question:
“In your opinion, what competitive sport fishing destinations do an effective job at
attracting the sports fisherman from a marketing perspective?”


    •   Plummers
    •   Tazin, in Alberta.
    •   Wallaston Lake Lodge
    •   Shackleton – they own lodges in the Bahamas and New Zealand.
    •   Hatchet Lake Lodge
    •   Blatchford Lake Lodge
    •   Queen Charlotte Lodge
    •   Sandy Point Lodge
    •   Alaskan Lodges
    •   Don’t know
    •   Newlton
    •   Knowlton Lodge
    •   Kasba Lake Lodge
    •   Pilote Point Lodge, Bathurst Inlet Lodge
    •   Webber’s Lodges
    •   Oak Bay Marine Group
    •   Langara Lodge
    •   B.C. Lodges


Interview Question:
“What challenges do you encounter in the area of employee hiring or in employee
retention?”


    •   Tough to get good people.
    •   Hard to compete with diamond mine wages.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                              80
    •   The fact that staff have to be “employees” is ridiculous. For only a 9 week period, they
        should be contract workers so there is no CPP and Workers Comp. etc.
    •   Very few challenges. Staff turnover is only 10% - 15% each season.
    •   Diamond mine jobs are competing with lodge jobs.
    •   Always recruiting and training. Wants support from the government to train staff. Feels
        there should be ongoing training programs for tourism jobs.
    •   Boat operator licensing changes will cause a problem.
    •   None.
    •   No real problems. Improvement in the economy does make hiring slightly more difficult.
    •   Seasonal Work.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      81
Transcriptions of Sport Fishing Outfitters Interviews

Disclaimer:

The following section contains verbatim transcriptions of interviews with fishing outfitters
licensed to operate in the Northwest Territories. I asked permission from each person
interviewed to include these verbatim transcriptions in the report, and I informed each person
that the report would be distributed publicly. The transcriptions of all those who agreed to, and
understood these conditions, are included in the following appendix.

The opinions expressed in these transcriptions are not necessarily those held by myself, the
Government of the Northwest Territories or Northwest Territories Tourism.


John St. Louis



Interview with Mr. Larry Fisher, Fish Hawk Adventures

John:            Okay, I’m with Larry Fisher of Fish Hawk Adventures. Larry, what do you think
                 are the reasons behind the decline in the number of guests to your lodge over the
                 past five years? Now I’m actually just looking at your response to that question
                 on the survey.

Larry:           Not applicable.

John:            And you said you didn’t know, or it’s not applicable? Why is that?

Larry:           I only—my business only started in August of last summer.

John:            Okay. Got it. Well congratulations.

Larry:           Thank you.

John:            How are you—what are your impressions of the market, of the industry and its
                 health right now?

Larry:           Well I don’t really know. For me, I’m anticipating a pretty good summer but
                 seeing as I only started this, I only got my outfitters license in the middle of
                 August last year, didn’t really have any time to advertise or anything else, it was
                 only basically word-of-mouth. And I’ve had the time to do more advertising and
                 such. I anticipate this summer being a lot more successful. As far as how
                 successful, I can’t even really gauge it yet.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                         82
John:           Okay. What are your thoughts on a group purchasing organization for lodges and
                outfitters in the NWT—for things such as insurance?

Larry:          I would be in favour of it.

John:           Okay. What type of outside support from government for example, do you feel
                would be helpful to the industry, to industry participants?

Larry:          Advertising—beyond that I don’t know that they can really do much. I don’t
                think the government should be funding any lodges, cause then that gives
                someone an unfair advantage, but just advertising the fishing and hunting in the
                North. I think that’s about all they can do, and I think that would be beneficial.

John:           Okay, what in your opinion, can be done to help ease the high cost of doing
                business as an—as a fishing outfitter in the NWT? Is there anything you can
                think that government can do or that the industry participants themselves can do?

Larry:          Well, I don’t really know. Having only been in it for a short time—I don’t really
                know what they could do. To be honest—I don’t know.

John:           Okay. What kind of assistance for marketing would you like to see from NWT
                Tourism?

Larry:          Just a broader advertising program I suppose, either from NWT Tourism itself or
                NWT Tourism connected with the government of the NWT and from my –what
                I’ve read and what I’ve heard, there appears to me to be quite a bit going on in
                the Tourism to promote it up here in the last couple of years. So, beyond what
                they’re already—what they’ve already started doing, which I think is an increase
                over the years prior to me getting into it, beyond that I don’t know what else they
                can do.

John:           Are there any new types of marketing initiatives that you can think of or that you
                would like to see from them, from a regional perspective? In terms of for
                example, branding the Northwest Territories?

Larry:          I don’t really think that makes a difference. I don’t think by putting a NWT brand
                on something makes a difference. People who are coming up here to hunt and
                fish are doing so because they have some knowledge of it, already, I believe. And
                I don’t think they’re going to come up here just because there’s a logo or a brand
                or something like that. Now if beyond—I mean, where most of us are already in
                the NWT Tourism association, which if that is a brand in and of itself then I don’t
                know how much beyond that any sort of branding would help anybody. I can’t
                see how it would benefit anybody. If somebody could explain it to me perhaps I
                might be on board, but I don’t, I can’t perceive why having an NWT brand would
                benefit.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        83
John:           Okay. Are you going to enhance or change your product, your service offerings
                in the next couple of years?

Larry:          I hope to.

John:           Okay.

Larry:          Provided I get—I hope to provided the Indian bands go along with my idea, but I
                doubt very much they will.

John:           Okay.

Larry:          I find the Natives to be the biggest stumbling block up here.
John:           Okay. Just one moment please. What marketing strategies have you seen from
                competitors of yours that you feel are—that you feel do a good job in attracting
                customers?

Larry:          Attending southern trade shows—tourism trade shows, hunting/fishing trade
                shows, that type of thing. Beyond that I don’t really think anybody does that
                much any different than I do. Other than they do more magazine advertising and
                things like that, only because they have a budget for it.

John:           Okay, in your opinion, what specific sport fishing outfitting companies in the
                NWT do a really good job?

Larry:          Plummer’s Lodge.

John:           Okay. I can skip a few questions here just because you’re a new outfitter. And is
                it—do you employ anybody besides yourself?

Larry:          I probably will be this summer.

John:           Okay, how many people?

Larry:          One.

John:           Okay, and can you tell me a bit about them—will they be from the NWT—not—

Larry:          Yes.

John:           They will?

Larry:          Yes.

John:           Student working for the summer, or seasonal worker? What are your thoughts?




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        84
Larry:          It would be a seasonal or part-time type of employment.

John:           Okay, younger or older?

Larry:          Same.

John:           Same, okay.

Larry:          Forty years old or so.

John:           Okay.

Larry:          He used to work—he was a—the guy I’m thinking of—I’m on disability as we
                speak. I’m waiting for back surgery and the fellow, a good friend of mine used to
                be a guide for Plummer’s lodge.

John:           Oh, okay.

Larry:          And he, I’ve had discussions with him about me doing the bookings and him
                taking people out, oh, because he’s the only guy I would trust to guide people
                under my name.

John:           Okay. What do you feel are the key ingredients to running a successful sport
                fishing operation?

Larry:          Catching people lots of fish! Lots of fish and big fish.

John:           Yep.

Larry:          I don’t know, just common sense, being polite and courteous, being
                knowledgeable of the waterways and of course being knowledgeable of where
                the fish are. It might have sounded silly but quite honestly, catching people fish,
                that’s what they’re there for.

John:           Yes, right. Okay.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                         85
Interview with Mr. Wayne Starling, North Star Resort

John:           Now, okay, I’m with Wayne Starling with North Star Resort. Wayne, what do
                you think are the reasons behind the decline in the number of guests to your
                lodge over the past five years? Now actually, I’m going to rephrase that question,
                because I was looking at your survey response, or responses, and you haven’t
                seen a decline in the last 5 years, your business has remained unchanged from
                year-to-year. But this question is still relevant. What are your thoughts on why
                business may have gone down for other lodges in the past 5 years?

Wayne:          Well, I think the—there’s a couple of—two main ones. One is that the 9/11
                tragedy that happened had a lot of US people staying at home which made things
                difficult for those who primarily served the United States clientele. And the other
                was the economy, money was tight throughout the world really, but North
                America, certainly, and people were just electing not to spend as much money on
                vacation as far as I could see.

John:           Okay, how do you think the industry’s participants can work together to turn
                things around and just slow or reverse such a decline in business?

Wayne:          I think that transportation is one way that people could probably work together
                and make travel a little bit more affordable and efficient. If there was some
                mechanism for clients to be brought in in full airplanes—because a lot of our
                travel is air, and those same airplanes are full going the opposite directions,
                would assist in bringing the price down and I know that a big part of the cost is
                transportation. So if that were somehow reduced I believe it would make it more
                attractive for tourists to come.

John:           Are you suggesting that a group of lodges could band together or group together
                to share charters in an attempt to bring down the costs?

Wayne:          It’s a way that it’s possible they could, and that’s theoretically—I know it would
                be very difficult in some ways to coordinate that. And I’m not just sure how it
                would all work, but if there were a way to reduce the travel costs I believe it


John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        86
                would be more attractive for people to come because that is a big part of their
                expense.

John:           Okay, this leads well into the next question. What are your thoughts Wayne, on a
                group purchasing organization for NWT fishing lodges and outfitters for items
                such as—well to make it simple, liability insurance?

Wayne:          Insurance—that’s gone up an awful lot in the last several years as we know. It’s
                personal insurance as well. And that’s an area that could possibly be a cost
                reduction if there were enough people that were together and could somehow,
                I’m not sure how that all works, but somehow make it so that the insurance
                provider has a bigger group, possibly they could give a reduced rate.

John:           So you—

Wayne:          Not sure how it works, but.

John:           Would you be in favour of participating if there was a discount and it was an easy
                process?

Wayne:          Yes, I think that would be one attractive thing that we’d be interested in.

John:           Okay. What type of outside support do you feel would assist the industry in
                reversing or slowing the decline?

Wayne:          Ah, gee, I don’t know.

John:           I think this question is leaning towards, what can the government do? Anything
                you can think of? Anything that jumps to mind?

Wayne:          I guess awareness is—advertising and awareness. And I know that they do try to
                do that at present. And other than that, I’m just not sure what else the government
                could do.

John:           Okay. What, in your opinion, if anything, can be done to help ease the high cost
                of doing business as a fishing lodge in the Northwest Territories? Is there
                anything that you can think of that government can do, or that industry
                participants can do? You’ve sort of already touched on this with transportation.

Wayne:          Yeah, I’m not sure again, how much government can get involved in it. I guess if
                they could assist in reducing costs in any way, that would be a benefit to all
                operators, but personally I just haven’t looked into or considered much as to how
                the government could play a role in that area.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                         87
John:           Okay. What kind of support, if any, have your suppliers offered you in the past?
                Now, you’re a smaller operation than let’s say, a Plummer’s, but has there been
                any offer of support from your suppliers that’s noteworthy?

Wayne:          No, none that I can comment on.

John:           Okay. What kind of assistance for marketing would you like to see from NWT
                Tourism?

Wayne:          Oh, that’s a tough one because we haven’t been into marketing ourselves. We
                rely on word-of-mouth and we’ve got-- 90 plus percent is repeat clientele. So it’s
                tough for me to comment. I know that some of the bigger operations probably
                would be in a better position to provide input on that.

John:           Okay. This is another marketing question Wayne, but maybe you’ve got some
                thoughts that would be helpful. What types of new marketing initiatives would
                you like to see from a regional perspective? So I guess, this is probably a
                question regarding branding, when it comes to promoting the Northwest
                Territories as a destination.

Wayne:          Oh, I really can’t—can’t provide anything concrete on that either.

John:           Okay. If 90 percent of your clients are return, that’s amazing. So what I’m going
                to do is I’m going to skip this next marketing question, and I’m going to—well
                here’s one. You mentioned that you don’t really market now, it’s all word-of-
                mouth. Do you see this changing in the future?

Wayne:          Not in the near future.

John:           Okay. Do you plan on changing your product or service offerings in the next
                couple of years to broaden your customer base? I noticed that, I think you
                selected 90 percent or more of your business comes from people who are there
                specifically to fish, but do you plan on branching out into anything?

Wayne:          Not particularly. There really—we try and include those who like to do
                photography and nature things, but it kind of comes foremost with the fishing
                part and then the rest is just incidental after that.

John:           Okay. Are there any marketing strategies from competing destinations, whether
                in the NWT or elsewhere that you feel are superior in attracting the sport fishing
                market?

Wayne:          Not that I’m aware of. I’m sure there are, but I don’t really know what everyone
                else is doing and what their business is.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        88
John:           Okay. Are there any lodges or outfitters in the NWT that you feel do an effective
                job that you admire when it comes to their marketing presentation?

Wayne:          I really haven’t seen any.

John:           Okay. Keep it simple. It’s nice not to worry about the competition. Have your
                clientele changed demographically over the past few years?

Wayne:          Not really, no.

John:           Can you tell me a little bit about their age, origin, gender? Are they there mostly
                traveling with friends and family or on business?
Wayne:          They’re no, they’re not on business. They’re specifically coming to go fishing.
                Some are, I would say, yes, all friends and some family and some of them have
                been coming for oh, 15 plus years, so their age has changed that much, but
                they’re the same people. And it hasn’t really—we’ve got some younger fellows
                and right up to those retired, so it’s a mixture.

John:           Okay. Just one second. In the past Wayne, did you ever own or operate your own
                aircraft to service your lodge?

Wayne:          Just one second.

John:           Sure.

Wayne:          No, we never owned our own—when we first started the operation, my partner
                had his own airline, and that—at that time, then I guess we did, although it was
                only for a small portion of his business. But we haven’t had our own airplane
                specifically just for our, for the fishing lodge.

John:           Okay so new regulations that have come into effect through the Canadian
                Transport Authority over the last five years, certain regulations such as restricting
                lodge owners from owning and operating their own planes—has this affected you
                at all?

Wayne:          No.

John:           Okay. How many people do you employ each season?

Wayne:          One.

John:           Okay. Now it says—my next question is to describe your typical employee, but if
                that’s you that may take a while.

Wayne:          [chuckle]




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                          89
John:           I’m not a psychiatrist. [laugh] I’m kidding.

Wayne:          No, we just—we have one attendant that stays at the lake for a month, usually, if
                we—either that or sometimes nobody. But other than that, we just kind of—my
                wife and I do it ourselves.

John:           Okay. So you have no challenges when it comes to employee retention.

Wayne:          No.

John:           And this is the last question. Wayne, what do you feel are the key ingredients to
                running a successful sport fishing operation?
Wayne:          I think the most important thing is being 100 percent committed to the clientele
                and treating them, treating them well, doing whatever we can to try to make it
                easier for them to get here, enjoy their time, and then get home again. I mean, we
                help some of the fellows with their transportation arrangements, pick up
                groceries and things like that to make it easier for them. And we try to do the best
                we can to make sure everything is operated properly on our end so that they have
                a hassle free time. And if we do our part to make sure that things go smoothly for
                them, they seem to like it and keep coming back.

John:           Okay.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        90
Interview with Mr. Jim Peterson, Peterson’s Point Lake Lodge


Q:              Okay. I’m here with Jim Peterson of Peterson’s Point Lake Lodge. Jim, what do
                you think, and this first question actually is—I’m going to reverse it. Normally, I
                ask what are the reasons behind the decline in the number of guests to your lodge
                over the past five yeas, but I notice in your response that you have had an
                increase in business over the past five years. What do you think the reasons are
                for that?

Jim Peterson: Well, I wouldn’t—I would say, first of all, there hasn’t been a real increase. The
              fishing is—I’ve noticed it over the last several years—fishing has steadily
              declined. We do all right because we operate with only small numbers. But one of
              the problems is the old—the old hard-core fishermen that have been coming up
              here for 20 or 30 years and makes two or three or four or six trips a year is dying
              off, and there’s nobody to replace these people. These are ex-CEOs, people that
              are retired and fairly affluent and, as I say, make several trips a year to different
              fishing lodges. Some of the them, ones that I had, for example, have been coming
              up North for something like 30 years. Well, there’s no one really coming in
              behind them and taking their place. Younger people don’t seem to be into the
              fishing the same way that these old timers are.

                And I think also, too, is the lack of marketing as far as fishing goes. For example,
                I think they have a budget of like $50,000 for fishing and you might as well throw
                that into the wind because it does little or nothing to promote fishing in the
                Northwest Territories. The other thing is the lack of government will. I had a
                meeting with the Minister with some lodge operators and Marian Lavigne from
                Outcrop. We met with them for an hour. I might as well have talked to the friggin
                wall because I came out of there no further ahead than when I went in.

                So, the government—I fault the government as well. They don’t—they’re not
                willing to do anything. They’re not willing to back tourism. They’re too interested
                in oil and diamonds and gas, and tourism is only an afterthought.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        91
Q:              Okay. How do you think the industry’s participants, so all of the lodges and
                outfitters in the NWT can work together to turn things around and slow or
                reverse a decline in business?

Jim Peterson: Well, I think, first of all, you have to get all the stakeholders together, and that
              hasn’t happened. You know, the marketing program that they’ve—this Fishing
              Recovery Program—there hasn’t been a meeting with the—a sit down meeting
              with the operators, and that’s one of the faults. We need all the stakeholders to sit
              down together and to hash it out. Perhaps, maybe, with this new branding exercise
              and new slogan coming out, maybe that’ll help it somehow, but not enough being
              done to assist the operators.
Q:            Okay. What are your thoughts on a Group Purchasing Organisation for NWT
              fishing lodges and outfitters for things such as liability insurance?

Jim Peterson: Yes, that definitely would help, that’s for sure. One of the things, a few things that
              we—a problem that we have is operating costs as well as insurance and groceries
              and there’s all kinds of things—propane, gasoline. If we had more purchasing
              power that would probably help. It’s just a matter of co-ordination. I mean, who
              would be the lead agency? A lot of questions to be answered there.

                I think what you need to do, again, is get the stakeholders together, sit down with
                government, federal, territorial, tourism with the territorial government, sit down
                and talk about these issues and talk about problems and solutions, you know, how
                we can, as an organisation, you know, get around this.

Q:              Okay. What, in your opinion, can be done to help ease the high cost of doing
                business as a fishing lodge in the Northwest Territories? What, if anything, that
                you can think of, can government do? What can industry participants themselves
                do, if anything?

Jim Peterson: Well, I think, first of all, they can increase the marketing budget, for sure. At one
              point in time, we used to have a Consumer Show Program where we—

Q:              Sorry, Jim, I’m just going to stop you because you’re answering, I believe, the
                next question or a couple of questions from now. I was specifically asking you
                what, if anything, in your opinion, can be done to help reduce costs, reduce—ease
                the high cost of doing business as a lodge in the Northwest Territories?

Jim Peterson: Reduce the high costs? I guess one of the things they could have is operator
              assistance, but this is not Consumer Show Program, this is Operator Assistance,
              such as converting from fuel powered to alternate such as solar power and,
              perhaps, you know, it’ll help reduce the cost of fuel. I think that they should look
              at small business assistance, and I’m not sure exactly, you know, what kind of
              program that would be, but they’re—the government, again, needs to talk to the
              industry and come up with some of these solutions. I don’t have an answer right
              off hand.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        92
Q:              Okay. Thank you. What kind of supports, if any, have your suppliers offered you
                in the past? For example, any co-marketing opportunities with local airlines?
                Anything you can think of with any of your suppliers?

Jim Peterson: No. It’s—that’s one of the problems. We have a really good working relationship
              with First Air. We have been dealing with them for a number of years, and we do
              have a program in place where our clients fly on their line, and they help us out by
              giving us passes or reduced air fares to Sportsman shows and travel and such.
              And they also have another program for employees—travel for employees of your
              business. And if you have an employee from down south that needs to travel to
              the North, they would get a discounted airfare.

                So, there are things in place but, with my suppliers in town, it’s great when I go to
                them and I buy stuff, but when I go to them and ask them to participate in a, you
                know, support program, it’s as if we didn’t exist. They’re great at taking money,
                but they’re certainly not much for doling it out and working together.

Q:              Okay. Jim, what kind of assistance for marketing would you like to see from
                NWT Tourism?

Jim Peterson: I’d like to see the Consumer Show Program put back in place. Also, the—at one
              point in time, they used to have—if you wanted to upgrade your computer system
              and get something that’s more efficient. If you wanted website development, there
              were funds there for that. NWT Arctic Tourism did away with that. Now there’s
              nothing. And they need to do those types of things. More co-operative marketing
              and, I think, initially, is to increase the budget. That’s the biggest thing. They’re
              not spending any money on fishing.

Q:              Okay. One second, please. Okay. What types of new marketing initiatives would
                you like to see from a regional perspective? So, when it comes—I think this—the
                best example would be branding, for example. Or promoting the NWT as a
                destination?

Jim Peterson: Yes. It’s true. I mean, that’s Northwest Territories tourism job is to market the
              Northwest Territories as a destination. But when you look at the overall budget,
              there’s not much there. That money only goes so far; probably half of it goes
              towards operation and maintenance of NWT Arctic Tourism, and then there’s
              marketing overseas and different marketing, whether it be fishing or hunting or
              whatever. There’s just not enough—there’s not enough funds, and it’s been a
              gripe of mine for, you know, 20 years that they’ve never really put the money into
              tourism that they need to. When you look at the Yukon example having a $12,
              $15 million budget, you can’t really do much with only a few bucks.

                So, yes, I agree that we need to market the Northwest Territories as a destination,
                but we also have to focus within that all the different sectors. And when you look



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                         93
                at the Aurora touring, for example, Aurora viewing, the money that the
                government has dumped in there is astronomical, but what they’ve dumped into
                fishing is nothing.

Q:              Okay. Jim, have you had to shift your marketing for advertising planned in the
                past few years to address any change in the market?

Jim Peterson: No, I haven’t. We mainly go on word of mouth, repeats and referrals for our
              business.

Q:              Okay. Compared to how you market your fishing lodge today, how do you see
                this changing in the future?

Jim Peterson: I think it’s going to become more difficult to get fishing people up. I think we
              have to look at our market and do a re-evaluation on our market and see really
              who are they and where are they from. And I think a market analysis for fishing
              definitely should be done. Also, I think we need to, again, bring all the
              stakeholders together to look at different strategies. With the Marketing
              Committee coming up now, I don’t know whether that will change or not. So,
              these are just a few things we can do.

Q:              Okay. Are you going to change your product or service offerings in the next
                couple of years?

Jim Peterson: No.

Q:              No. Okay. What marketing strategies from competitive destinations, not
                necessarily just in the NWT but elsewhere, so what marketing strategies are you
                familiar with from competitors that you feel are superior in attracting the sport
                fishing market?

Jim Peterson: Well, I don’t know if it’s so much marketing—what it is, is access. When you’re
              looking at, you know, $1,500 or $1,400 or $1,600 airfare to get to the North,
              that’s where—that’s one of the big problems is the cost of getting here. When you
              can fly to New Zealand for the same price of flying somewhere in the US to
              Yellowknife, they’re not going to choose the North. One of the problems that we
              have with the other jurisdictions, as I say, the easy access. People don’t have as
              far to go. It’s not costing as much.

                The other thing is that what we have a disadvantage. Small lodge operators have a
                disadvantage because we have no direct flights into our lodges, such as North of
                60 and Kasba, Alton]—they all have their own airstrips. They fly directly from
                Winnipeg or wherever they go right to the lodge. When you’re in the Northwest
                Territories, most of the small operators don’t have that. They have to fly by
                commercial air into Yellowknife, stay overnight in a hotel, fly to the lodge and do
                the fishing trip, stay in a hotel on the way out—and a lot of people don’t want to



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        94
                take a couple of extra holidays and a lot of people don’t want to incur the extra
                expense, so we’re at a disadvantage with those with direct fly-in trips.

                I don’t think it’s so much in marketing as is the access. And I think that the
                multiple species for fishing, for example, you know, a lot of lodges may have pike
                and bass and walleye and whatever else in their lakes. Well, a lot of us up here,
                for example, mine, I have lake trout. You don’t find a lot of lake trout fishermen
                in the US. They’re used to hauling them up from a hundred feet down, and it’s not
                the greatest way to fish.

                In our cold waters, the ice is out late, our summer season is shorter. You know,
                they’re getting in four, five, six months; we’re getting in one month, six weeks.
                We don’t have, because of our locations, we’re—ice out is usually the beginning
                of July, and in the last couple of years, it’s been the middle of July. So, operating
                season is one thing; access, another; multiple species is another thing, and we just
                can’t compete against that.

                And when it comes down to—when you’re looking at $1,500 for an airfare times
                two people, that’s $3,000. And you got a five-day trip at, you know, at $3,000
                each. Now, you’re up to, you know, $10,000, $12,000. Who’s going to pay that to
                go on a five day fishing trip? So, that’s a number of things that we have to
                compete with not even out of the territories, within the territories with those with
                direct fly-in.

Q:              Okay. In your opinion, Jim, what competitors of yours, so what competitive sport
                fishing destinations do an effective job at attracting sports fishermen from a
                marketing perspective? So, I guess, who’s marketing plan do you admire?

Jim Peterson: I really haven’t looked at any of them. I don’t really go and look at other—I’ve
              been on their websites and stuff—but we really don’t look at my competition, you
              know, from a marketing perspective.

Q:              So, I’ll say, none?

Jim Peterson: Yes, I’d say, none, yes. We just do our own thing and, you know, we look at the
              prices, you know, whether that’s comparable or not.

Q:              Okay. How are your clientele changing demographically? You mentioned that
                they’re getting older. What about—anything else in terms of their origin—where
                they’re coming from? Their gender? Are they travelling more with family and
                friends than on business? Anything else you’ve noticed lately?

Jim Peterson: No, not really. We pretty well—we have—a lot of our customers are repeats. I
              think that, you know, nowadays, people are more inclined to stay closer to home.
              For example, you know, we got a lot of—we do a lot of trips to Minnesota and,
              you know, people from Northern Ontario are there promoting at the Sports Show,



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                           95
                and it’s easy to drive from Minneapolis or whatever into Northern Ontario, where
                you can take your family, family and friends or relatives or whatever. When you
                have to get on a plane and fly, you know, a few thousand miles, people are more
                inclined to—they don’t have the financial resources to do it, so they do something
                that’s closer to home. So, therefore, you know, when they look on the map and
                they see how far we are 98% of them get turned off.

Q:              Okay. In the past, did you own or operate your own aircraft to service your lodge?

Jim Peterson: No. No. Leased. Or leased/chartered.
Q:            Okay. So, did the regulation changes from the Canadian Transport Authority after
              9/11 affect you at all?

Jim Peterson: No, not really. Not really 9/11. What’s happened though is the cost of charters has
              gone up. There are NavCan fees, for example, there’s aviation fuel costs, which
              will be going through the roof this summer. We have off-strip landing fees like
              $100 bucks flying out, $100 bucks flying back. We have reduced payloads. We
              have reduced DOT red tape on regulations such as external loads, dangerous
              goods, etc. So, from federal aviation point of view, it’s getting more difficult and
              pretty soon they’re going to bring in that we can’t fly any dangerous things like
              propane and put it on a plane where passengers are. It’ll have to be flown
              separately, which will increase our cost.

Q:              Okay. So, it’s—they’re definitely affecting you, obviously.

Jim Peterson: Yes.

Q:              Okay. How many people do you employ each season?

Jim Peterson: For fishing?

Q:              Yes.

Jim Peterson: Well, I employ a cook, generally anywhere between five to eight guides,
              including myself.

Q:              Okay. So, I’ll say nine. How’s that?

Jim Peterson: Yes. And I have an office manager, so that would be 10.

Q:              Okay. Can you briefly describe your typical employee? For example, are they
                from the Northwest Territories? Are they from another province?

Jim Peterson: Yes. All my guides are from here.

Q:              Oh, they are. Okay.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      96
Jim Peterson: Yes.

Q:              Are they—are most of them summer students?

Jim Peterson: No. They’re—they come from a variety of backgrounds.

Q:              Okay.

Jim Peterson: One of the problems with guiding in the North—it’s not a full-time job. It’s only a
              part-time job.

Q:              Right.

Jim Peterson: So, a lot of my—my guides have full-time jobs.

Q:              Rarely is it a full-time job anywhere.

Jim Peterson: Yes.

Q:              Although a lot of people try to make it so. Okay. What challenges do you
                encounter, if any, in the area of employee hiring or in employee retention?

Jim Peterson: None.

Q:              None?

Jim Peterson: No.

Q:              Well, that’s a nice problem not to have. And Jim, this is the final question. What
                do you feel are the key ingredients to running a successful sport fishing
                operation?

Jim Peterson: Quality of service, safety—safety would be the first thing. Quality of service,
              quality of equipment, quality of food, and probably right on top of the pile is the
              quality of guides. All mine are all certified, nationally certified guides. They’re
              good outdoorsmen, and they know how to communicate. They’re safety
              conscious, you know, that kind of thing.

                Your staff is definitely important because they’re the ones spending eight or ten
                hours a day with the client. So, how they treat the clients and how they handle the
                boat, how they deal with a client over the fishing period that they’re at the lodge
                all affects your business. So, having good qualified, trustworthy staff who knows
                how to deal with people is probably of the utmost importance.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        97
                So, those are a few things. As I say, the best kind of promotion is word of mouth,
                and that’s where we get all our business from—repeats and referrals. We virtually
                do no advertising other than Sports Shows.

Q:              Okay.

Jim Peterson: So, just a couple of other comments I’d like to throw in.

Q:              Sure. I’ve—I’m still recording. Go for it.

Jim Peterson: A few other things that I’d like to add that really affect our operations, not so
              much in the—as far as getting customers but as in operating expenses. You know,
              for example, one is this gas—I just figured it out—gas landed at my lodge this
              summer, as of right now, will be $5.06 a litre. So, that really, when you’re using
              five boats and burning $1000 a day worth of gas to get around the lake, it’s rather
              on the expensive side. Propane costs, they’ve just skyrocketed. Liability and auto
              insurance, it’s really gone up as well. Groceries—the cost of groceries, just
              getting in here is just astronomical.

                One of the biggest impacts on our business over the last year has been the
                decrease in the US dollar or the increase in the Canadian dollar. We have lost, you
                know, 25% to 30% of our revenue on the exchange rate. At one time, we used—a
                year ago, it was 40% and now we’re down around 13%. So, that really, when you
                take 25% of your revenue out of your budget, that really, really smarts. The cost
                of Sports Shows has really skyrocketed, airfare, hotels, meals, booth spaces.

                The other thing that impacts us is Revenue Canada, the GNWT, CPP, UI, payroll
                tax, and corporate tax. There are no breaks for small businesses. We have to pay
                employee benefits and matching CPP, etc. Another big one—another major one
                here in the Territories and something that needs to be done about is the increase in
                our WCB rates. This year, we’re paying $4.06 per $100 of wages for 2006. We’ve
                never had an accident in 25 years; yet, we don’t get a reduction in our assessment.
                So, WCB has really gone up.

                The cost of licensing. We have to have a business license; we have to have a
                tourist establishment license; we need an outfitters license; we need a guide’s
                license; we need a land lease; satellite telephone licenses; HF radio licenses.
                We’re being nickled and dimed to death here on all these, and still the Travel and
                Tourism Act still is sitting in the House not being acted upon.

                Advertising costs have skyrocketed. CTC, Canadian Tourism Commission,
                they’re useless—they’re not there to help small business. They’re there for big
                corporations. They don’t help the little small mom and pop in the rural areas of
                Canada.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                          98
                Airfares from southern Canada into Yellowknife are just—it’s just utterly
                ridiculous and, as I say, you know, people can fly south and go to other lodges
                for, you know, half the price. The cost of purchasing and repairing equipment
                such as outboard motors, ATV, propane appliances, repairs on site, and, again, I
                just had two lower units replaced in two of my Yahama outboard motors, and that
                cost $4,000.

                Internet—domain license for a website is, you know, like 400 bucks a year.
                Internet costs, we have costs for a satellite telephone. We have activation fees,
                deactivation fees. So, you know, operating costs have just, you know, gone
                through the roof. Between that and the federal bureaucracy, territorial
                bureaucracy, you know. Pretty soon, we’re going to need a boat operator’s
                certificate to operate, you know, an outboard motor and boat up there in the
                barren lands.

                It seems like every time we turn around, the government is bringing something
                else in. It is not getting conducive to operating a small business any more.

Q:              Okay. Well, that was pretty clear.

Jim Peterson: Okay.

Q:              And concise. Just hang on--




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                           99
Interview with Mr. Shane Jonker, Plummer’s Lodges

Q:              Here we go. I’m with Shane Jonker of Plummer’s Lodges. Shane, what do you
                think of the reasons behind the decline in the number of guests to your Lodge
                during the past five years or actually I guess I should say the three years between
                2001 and 2004?

SHANE:          The primary reason is diplomatic relations with the US. We started in 2001 with
                about 85 to 90 percent of our clientele was US and it is—it is now down around
                relative to the same volumes of guests, it’s around 20 percent. And it didn’t
                happen in 2002 but it happened the following season in 2003. September 11 is
                something that a lot of people will point to but it—really September 11 did not
                affect our relationship with our US clients nearly as much as Canadian politicians
                using words like “moron” and “bastard” and that type of thing. That is really
                what hit home. I was hoping it wouldn’t have made the type of news coverage it
                made in the United States but I was in the United States when those things
                happened and it did get a lot of attention on USA Today.

Q:              Okay. Next question. How do you think the industry’s participants can work
                together, if they can at all, to turn things around or slow a decline in business?

SHANE:          Well, I think what we have here is there’s some initiative being taken by
                government and by NWT Tourism. The problem when government and quasi-
                government organizations get involved is that they tend to be misdirected and
                they tend to consume a lot of resources doing nothing of substance.

                The operators, on the other hand, are business people and they know that the buck
                stops with them and I think that the best focus we can do is on branding of the
                Territories. I’ve said this for years. It’s not – and please don’t misunderstand – I
                don’t think that it’s a wise move to run around the communities of the Territories
                having round table discussions about how we want to present ourselves to the
                United States. And I don’t think it’s a worthwhile exercise in hiring a northern
                marketing agency to market us to the United States. We need to seek the help of
                experts in the United States to market to their market and we need to do that


John St. Louis Consulting                                                                            100
                collectively for the Northwest Territories as a destination. And we also need to
                use whatever funding is going to be made available in this rescue project.

                We need to make that available to operators because if somebody comes up to the
                Northwest Territories and has a positive experience, be it at our place or be it at
                any other operators, that is how—that is another way to grow the brand. So, if I
                want to place an ad in Fisherman and I have Northwest Territories as part of my
                ad because it would save Plummer’s Great Bear Lake, Great Slave Lake,
                Northwest Territories, Canada, that we should have access to some funding for
                that type of thing. So, if we can prove that we’ve spent money on marketing that
                the assistance comes through the government there.

Q:              Excellent! Okay. What are your thoughts on a group purchasing organization for
                NWT fishing lodges and outfitters?

SHANE:          I don’t know that that is – with the exception of marketing – I don’t know that
                that is necessarily going to help much at all.

Q:              Okay.

Shane: :        I think what people are experiencing here – you see, there was no motivation to
                come up with such a thing in 2000 and 2001 during the heyday. When the
                volumes are there, it is a business worth doing. Trying to fix a volume problem
                by lowering costs to a certain extent is a smart move. I don’t think that
                collectively we have the buying power to approach Circa, for example, or
                SYSCO, rather and say, “We’re going to – all the operators are going to buy the
                food through you provided you come up with a price.”

                Everyone’s got a different staging area. Not everybody buys their foods in
                Yellowknife. Not everyone buys their fuels in Yellowknife. Those are two of the
                big things. Building materials. They come from a variety of starting points
                because if we’re shipping them in on winter roads or by air – I just don’t—I can’t
                see us trying to make Yellowknife a hub – would not really provide for the
                volume that would be required to get some price consideration from the suppliers.

Q:              What about for something like insurance – liability insurance?

SHANE:          That’s a good idea. That has been—that has been done. That’s definitely—that’s
                such an easy one, too, because insurance companies, they sure do like the volume.
                It cuts down on their commissions, which are huge per policy and if we were
                having the—having the whole works underwritten together, I think that it would
                probably not only reduce the cost of insurance but I think it would improve the
                conditions under which we operate because in order to belong to a cooperative
                that way, we would need to make sure that everybody was playing by a certain
                minimum standards in the safety [and in the] liability avoidance department.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                         101
Q:              Okay. What kind of—what kind of support have your suppliers offered you in the
                past, for example, co-marketing opportunities with local airlines? Anything you
                can think of?

SHANE:          No.

Q:              Okay. What’s – let me see. You’ve sort of already answered that. So, I’m just
                going--.

SHANE:          I would say, John, and I don’t know that this is what you’re getting at as far as
                marketing but, in fact, no. I’m not going to—I’m not going to go ahead with that.
                That’s completely different.

Q:              Okay. What kind of assistance for marketing would you like to see from NWT
                Tourism?

SHANE:          Money.

Q:              Money.

SHANE:          I don’t think that there’s any other way – if we give money, be it through a federal
                grant or a territorial grant to NWT Tourism, I don’t—I don’t think it’s wisely
                spent. I don’t mean to be—to be harsh but from what I’ve seen, some of the
                programs in place are very good but I think it should be a very, very simple --
                come up with some qualifying marketing expenditures and if those are being done
                by the outfitter, that some form of reimbursement would be available. Handing it
                over—handing over big piles of money to, again—to government from
                government to a quasi-government organization, just results in a whole bunch of
                money burning and it’s not efficient.

Q:              Okay. What types of new marketing initiatives would you like to see from a
                regional perspective?

SHANE:          Just so I understand, John, are you talking about marketing the Territories within
                the Territories to territorial residents?

Q:              I’m thinking – and you’ve already touched on this really. From a regional
                perspective, it would be branding.

SHANE:          Branding, getting into the United States, doing what Alaska did and making the
                Northwest Territories a destination that’s in people’s minds and in their hearts to
                something that they need to do. Alaska has been at it for a good number of years.
                They did not miss the opportunity after September 11 to make sure that while the
                US was internalizing their tourism that they capitalized on being a northern
                destination that was part of the United States. And they’ve done that very
                successfully. But by properly branding us with nothing being sold in particular,



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       102
                just the destination, on television primarily as well as in print in the United States
                would be a great bet.

                And there’s also something that’s been very, very effective is a—is an e-mail
                newsletter. Again, I don’t think it’s wise to leave it in the hands of northern or
                even in Canadians hands to decide how these things should be—should be done to
                market to the mind of the—of the US consumer. That should be left up to
                professionals in the United States.

Q:              Okay. Have you had to shift your marketing advertising and marketing plan in
                the past few years?

SHANE:          Yes.

Q:              How so?

SHANE:          I’d rather not discuss it.

Q:              Okay. That’s fair. Compared to how you market your fishing lodge today, how
                do you see this changing in the future?

SHANE:          I see it returning. I see the business returning. It has cycled down this far before.
                An example of the sentiment – because our biggest customer, I believe, will
                continue to be the United States. During Vietnam when Canada was a place
                where draft dodgers would hide, we were—it would—it would be considered to a
                lot of Americans, treason is to visit Canada. And Plummer’s was operating at that
                time and they experienced – Chummy will tell you – that things—he didn’t think
                that they could get worse than at that time. And it came back through at least two
                cycles since then where things have been fabulous.

                So, I think that we will be back to basics over the—over the long term.

Q:              Okay. Are you going to change your product offerings in the next couple of years
                to broaden your customer base at all or are you going to stick with your core
                product -- fishing?

SHANE:          I think the core product is by far always going to be the biggest volume that we
                do. It’s no surprise to anyone that the growth is in hunting but, again, we’ve got a
                very cumbersome process to get involved successfully in outfitting for hunting in
                the Northwest Territories and it is—it is a difficult venture from a simple
                permitting perspective to get going. And then you are—you are not—it’s not like
                in some of the provinces where you can actually possess tags. You need to hope
                that the various natural resource committees or however they’re structured in
                different communities are going to make those things available on a year-by-year
                basis.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                          103
                It’s a difficult environment to do business in because these big game hunts are
                booked so far out and if you don’t know you’re getting tags in 2008, it’s a tough
                thing to go and sell. Mind you, the margins are very good. So, if there was to be
                some growth, I suspect it will be in big game hunting.

Q:              Okay. What marketing strategies from competitive destinations do you feel are
                superior in attracting the sport fishing market, if there are any?

SHANE:          Could you repeat that, John?
Q:              Sure. What marketing strategies from competitive destinations – so from other
                lodges that are out there – do you—do you feel are superior to yours in attracting
                the sport fishing market? Is there anything out there that you think is doing a
                superior job in terms of attracting sport fishermen? Are there any marketing
                strategies of competitive lodges that you really admire?

SHANE:          I wouldn’t say so. If you had asked me that eighteen months ago, I would have
                said yes but I wasn’t sure what they were. And I’ve since – we’ve explored a few
                different avenues and we’re quite happy with how those work for us. Again, it’s
                not something that there is room for me really to share those things.

Q:              Okay.

SHANE:          It’s tricky like, you know. The last thing I want to do really as a competitor is
                make available the thing that works best for me.

Q:              Sure.

SHANE:          We’re all drawing from the same customer base and we all know that. All of the
                operators know that many of our guests come up, comparing us and discussing the
                times that they’ve been to all of our competitors’ lodges. And there’s certainly a
                circuit there. And, so, it would not be of any value to me to sort of give away the
                best thing we got going.

Q:              Okay. In your opinion, what competitive sport fishing destinations do an
                effective job at attracting sport fishermen from a marketing perspective?

SHANE:          Hatchet.

Q:              Sorry?

SHANE:          Hatchet.

Q:              Yup.

SHANE:          Newellton [ph]. And I would have to say – we speaking Northern specifically?




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                           104
Q:              Yes.

SHANE:          I would probably stop there.

Q:              Okay. How are your clientele changing demographically, if they’ve changed at
                all, in terms of age, origin, gender, travelling with family or friends, income
                levels?

SHANE:          I would say that the income levels have gone down and that’s a function of people
                having – see, it used to be if you had a million bucks, you would think about
                coming fishing in the Arctic. And now people are starting to – there just seems to
                be more people commanding a salary that affords them five or six thousand
                dollars on a fishing trip. So I think that the average income has come down. The
                age is starting to come down now as we get away from the gear fishing and
                people start to get turned on to fly-fishing. That has certainly brought a younger
                clientele to us.

                And as far as the – we most definitely, over the last ten years, have seen more
                women, families, people coming up together as a family. It’s not just the boys
                club anymore.

Q:              Okay. In the past, did you – did Plummer’s own or operate their own aircraft to
                service their Lodge?

SHANE:          Yup.

Q:              Did regulations – changes in regulations from the Canadian Transport Authority,
                which restrict lodge owners from owing and operating their own planes, affect
                your operation?

SHANE:          Yup.

Q:              Okay. And how did it affect it?

SHANE:          Well, we used to operate a DC3, which is our airplane and it’s a 705 category
                airplane and that means nothing more than the fact that it’s a large airplane. So,
                it’s in the same category as a 737. And, so, when regulations change with respect
                to the larger airplanes – and these are, of course, airline airplanes – it was
                something that we had to respond to. And now we’re operating one large
                category airplane – one airline category airplane for sixty to seventy-five days.
                And after September 11, when all these new rules started coming down the pipe
                and we’re getting bugged about, “What are you doing about your bullet-proof
                cockpit doors, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera,” we finally got so bogged down with
                paperwork that we threw in the towel on operating that airplane.

Q:              Okay. How many people do you employ each season?



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                         105
SHANE:          Well, that has definitely varied over the last half a dozen years. I’d say anywhere
                from 112 to 140.

Q:              Okay. What challenges do you encounter in the area of employee hiring or in
                employee retention?

SHANE:          None. That’s something that we cracked probably—probably five years ago. We
                stopped going through employees every year and started – like, for example, I’m
                not hiring very many people in that 115 or so people this year. I don’t think I’m
                hiring more than—more than a dozen.

Q:              Wow! They’re all returning?

SHANE:          Yup, and a lot of them have been around for a lot of years now. So, we’ve
                managed to keep our people.

Q:              Okay. What do you feel – this is a very big question and I’m thinking of maybe
                taking it out but I’ll ask it to you anyways. What do you feel are the key
                ingredients to running a successful sport fishing operation?

SHANE:          Well, I’ll tell you what the pitfall is rather than the key ingredients. The key
                ingredients are going to be very commonsense the same as any business,
                especially in hospitality and in tourism. The pitfall—the pitfall that a lot of
                operators have been experiencing over the last several years is offering to supply
                a quality product for below market value and it’s a temptation that people run into
                in our business because our costs are often met after a certain volume of business
                has been booked. And, beyond that, we start to put a great chunk of each tariff in
                our pockets. And the rule of thumb should be that you should never permit
                anybody to enjoy your product that has not paid enough so that if everyone paid
                the same amount as that individual, you would make money.

                As soon as you start to go to this throat cutting -- again, we’re dealing with a very
                small consumer base -- everyone knows about it. And now you’re not only
                hurting yourself but you’re hurting other operators because the impression that’s
                given is that the NWT operators have been screwing the consumer for a good
                number of years because, all of a sudden, they can offer a $4,000 product for
                $1,800. And it is—of course, it’s very tempting to engage in that and people
                really have to hold their ground. Because when the dust clears, there won’t be as
                many people standing as there were when this whole thing started and that will be
                the reason why.

Q:              Excellent! Okay.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        106
Interview with Mr. Gary Jaeb, True North Safaris

John:           Right. Now, okay I’m with Gary with True North Safaris. Gary, what do you
                think the reasons are behind the decline in the number of guests to your lodge
                over the past five years? Now I noticed that it was unchanged up until the 2002
                season, so I guess the past three seasons, what do you think are the reasons
                behind the decline?

Gary:           Well, I think it’s a combination of things, but part of it is to do with the aging—
                sort of, people that came fishing years ago are getting old, and the younger
                generations, I think are looking for other—some other types of adventures. But
                also combined with the tensions over the Middle East war, and we didn’t go to
                Iraq with the Americans. And, the decline in the US dollar has hurt us—not just
                because we sell in US dollars but the Americans, it costs them more to travel to
                Canada now. And so there’s a combination I think, of all of those.

John:           Okay. How do you think the industry’s participants can work together to turn
                things around, or slow or reverse a decline in business?

Gary:           Well, somehow I think we have to be able to make people want to come and do
                what we offer, fishing. And I think that’s through some positive sort of
                advertising, and you know, showing young people doing the fishing activities,
                and you know, trying to entice people to want to do that. But I think the other
                thing we can do is develop some new product and package it differently so that
                we emphasize the adventure and the wildlife maybe, and other things. I know
                we’re looking at several new products in our business, some of it even being
                winter adventure, and trying to use our facilities for things like workshops and
                team building and conferences and that the fishing is just an extra. But I suppose
                everybody’s trying to do that too, so we’re still competing for a small—a
                shrinking market I think.

John:           Okay. What are your thoughts on a group purchasing organization for NWT
                fishing lodges and outfitters, for things like insurance and perhaps other
                necessities?

Gary:           Well, yeah, I mean I would be for that, and you know, even outboard motors and
                boats and—I mean, if we, as a group, we would have more buying power. Those
                ideas have been around a long time though and no one’s ever been able to put it


John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        107
                together. I don’t know what the incentive would be for someone to take the time
                and energy to do that, unless it was a, you know, a government funded body or
                something. Because individuals, we, I think we all tend to go off and do our own
                shopping and make our own deals, and no one would—not likely somebody
                would put the energy into trying to bring a group of competitors together.

John:           Okay. What type of outside support do you feel would assist the industry in
                reversing or slowing this decline?

Gary:           Well, I mean, I – I guess in the end everything’s money. I’d like to see our
                government put some money, resources to bolstering our advertising marketing
                programs and you know, raise our image, or profile. But I—I really believe
                though that we have to have a high degree of member or industry participation in
                these things. Like I know they’re talking about this marketing board—I wish
                they’d get on with it, because what I’m seeing and hearing now is that there’s a
                whole bunch of government people getting together and having workshops.
                These same, you know, tourism development officers and whatnot that don’t
                have any budget are still getting huge taxpayer’s money for being there and
                they’re livelihood does not depend on sales, whereas mine does and my
                competitors do. If we don’t make sales we don’t have anything. But instead of
                them going to Europe why don’t we go to Europe and sell? Like I think there
                needs to be—there’s room for both. But what I think we need to get back to is a
                little more participation from the industry people whose livelihoods are on the
                line here and we have you know, something at stake in making sales. Where
                people, even our tourism people, all well-meaning good-hearted people, but
                they’re going to Europe or Japan or California and making sales does not affect
                whether or not they get a paycheque.

John:           Okay. What in your opinion can be done to help ease the higher—the high cost of
                doing business as a fishing lodge up here in the Northwest Territories? What can
                government do? What are your thoughts on what industry can do?

Gary:           Well, I’m glad that there’s competition coming with the airlines. You know, and
                I—it’s not just—I mean, I worked, and have for years, with First Air and
                Canadian North but all of a sudden Air Canada makes an entry into this market
                and there’s seat sales and deals coming down. The idea of subsidies for industry
                have been talked about for years. You know, I don’t know what else you do—the
                price of fuel’s going up all over the world. North America—gas in Alberta last
                week was a buck a liter, and I think I’m paying a buck six here. So those things
                that are beyond our control are going to continue to rise. Transportation certainly
                to get to the North is a problem. Other than, you know, competition, you know, I
                guess, subsidies.

John:           Okay. What kind of support if any, have your suppliers offered you in the past?
                Any co-marketing opportunities with the airlines?




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      108
Gary:           Yeah, we have negotiated like, passes based on our volume of sales, you know,
                where they said—they help us get to the southern markets for shows, and we
                have special outfitter rates at some of the hotels and with the airlines to bring our
                clients here. But they’re still relatively expensive. It costs more to fly from
                Edmonton to Yellowknife than it does to fly from Miami to Edmonton, you
                know.
John:           I know. Okay.

Gary:           So, but I mean, they have been helpful with us, but less so. I mean, they’re
                looking for numbers, volumes—I guess they—but I know that they give the
                diamond mines better deals than they do the tourists. And the Aurora, because
                it’s a high numbers game, is getting far better seat sales than, you know, the
                fishing and hunting lodges are because we bring less numbers of people, but our
                people bring more money to the North. So it’s—people like airlines are counting
                seats, not benefits to the local economy. You know, maybe there’s a role for
                government to be an equalizer there.

John:           Okay. What kind of assistance for marketing would you like to see from NWT
                Tourism?

Gary:           Well, I mean, we need more money. This is pitiful compared to the Yukon or
                Alaska or other jurisdictions—the Maritimes—the amount of money spent on
                marketing in the Territories here is pitiful for a start. But in the end I would like
                to see more money flowing to the operators. Like, we should be going on these
                trade missions and funded to do so. We should have – the old programs we used
                to have through the old EDAs and that, for consumer show programs and you
                know, different product development and marketing aids like brochures and
                displays—and there should be programs for all of that. But it should be aimed at
                the operators more. We need the generic, general stuff and we need more money,
                but you know, again, it goes back—my whole thing is it should be support to the
                industry not to, you know, government. Or even our own association staff has to
                be more cognizant of, you know, the objective is to sell seats for lodges and
                outfitters and hotels and bed and breakfasts and—

John:           What type of—any thoughts on new types of marketing initiatives that you’d like
                to see from a regional perspective specifically when it comes to marketing
                Northwest Territories?

Gary:           Well, I don’t know that there is a whole lot like, what’s new out there. Probably
                the Internet, the web, the email—that type of electronic sort of marketing stuff is
                the leading edge, I don’t know. I’m trying to move into that in our own business,
                but one idea would be a trade mission. Why don’t we like, get a bunch of fishing
                lodges and go to Europe or go to some targeted areas in the US? And the
                operators, not government staff going there and we never get any feedback. I’ve
                been asking for contacts—these people—our own tourism people have been at
                these shows. I was saying, “Well do you have any contacts that I can use? You



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        109
                must have met some travel agents or booking agents or wholesalers that I can
                contact.” And I don’t even get that kind of information from anybody. So I really
                wonder what those people are doing there. But why can’t the operators be doing
                these things? You know, like a group of us. Surely we could get together and
                organize a half a dozen or a dozen fishing lodges that would be—and head up a
                trade mission. And we’ve got our guy over there working for Arctic Tourism
                already—I’m sure he would know people or clubs or places that we could go and
                have group presentations and promote fishing in the Territories. I don’t know,
                maybe that’s a new idea.

John:           Okay. Have you had to shift your marketing or advertising and marketing plan in
                the past few years to address the shift in the market?

Gary:           Well, I’m still struggling with the idea of trying to you know, cater to a different
                generation, and I don’t really have what I think are viable solutions. What I end
                up coming back to is that I’ve got to be more aggressive trying to get my share of
                a shrinking market. But according to one study I read, I’m—a little bit of a
                digression here, but there still were something like 61 million Americans hunted
                and fished at the time of the study in 2001, so if that’s a shrinking—they still
                spend over $200 billion dollars on those activities, so there still are a lot of clients
                out there and a lot of money out there. And if it’s shrinking as a percentage of the
                overall society, there still is room for us to be aggressive and try and get our
                share of it. But what I’ve had—what I’ve looked at more is the access to the
                Territories here, being sort of the Midwest and Western US.

                And I’ve really come to notice the hot economy in Alberta is a very strong market
                for us, potential. In our own business it’s grown from probably 5% to 25% of our
                market now and we’re going to—in addition to Calgary and Edmonton shows
                which we’ve done the last two years we’re going to have McMurray and
                probably Grand Prairie and maybe Red Deer. So we’re going to focus on
                Alberta—it’s easy access, there’s money, the economy’s hot and we’re going to
                shift from doing like, Indianapolis and St. Louis, some of those eastern, well
                Midwestern places to probably Salt Lake City and San Mateo and Phoenix
                maybe, and Dallas and Denver. So we’re shifting to the West. We have direct
                flights into say, Denver to Edmonton, Salt Lake City to Edmonton.

John:           Compared to how you market your fishing operation today—I guess you pretty
                much answered this question, compared to how you market your fishing
                operation today, how do you see this changing in the future? I think you just
                answered that.

Gary:           Right. I mean, I think over—like from the economies and those things change
                and so we try and be perceptive in that. I know one of the things I’m going to try
                and do more with my annual marketing plan is to get feedback from my clients as
                to what caught their eye, or what they would even suggest that we do. But I really
                get a sense that the Internet and the easy way you know, for like updating—



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                           110
                putting a picture of a big fish on here that we caught yesterday—I can pop that
                into my computer with my satellite internet hookup from the [Barren Lands].
                Look at what we caught yesterday! Type thing. So I think there’s going to be
                more sort of quick and easy way to get information out and try and make it new
                and relevant and exciting.

John:           Are you going to change your product offerings in the next couple of years to
                broaden your customer base? Anything new that you’re looking—

Gary:           Yeah, well we’re working on—one of the things is the winter product. Like, I
                think with other—same with other fishing lodges and hunting outfitters, our
                seasons are so short that for a number of years I’ve been looking to get winter
                activity and we’ve introduced a ‘Travel the winter road to a diamond mine and
                spend a couple of nights at the cabins at Mackay Lake.’

                And I’ve got that coming up on my new website and I have an article in this—
                published in the Above and Beyond magazine this month actually, on that. And I
                just hosted some guys from England that are doing a TV thing and some stories
                for Land Rover, we drove up the ice road. And the other thing we’re going to try
                and promote is viewing the Northern Lights in the fall, and fishing under the
                Northern Lights or photographing caribou. And I’m trying to get some
                [indiscernible] [tours] going on that one. And we also have a cabin down the
                highway that we’re going to start promoting bison photography and just could be
                combined again with Aurora or just going to see bison. We have a long-range
                plan to develop a winter lodge at White Beach across from—on the south shore
                of the North Arm that would give us more of a real winter operation. And the
                synergies that we get, like we could run—we—right now we operate Warburton
                Bay Lodge and Mackay Lake lodge and North Arm Adventures. So we have one
                office, we have you know, one bookkeeper, a couple of people part-time that do
                marketing. But when we go to shows we can market several products. Our new
                website’s going to have our, you know, new products on it. So there’s just a lot of
                synergies in having different lodges, locations and product to sell, that’s what
                we’re trying to do.

John:           What marketing strategies if any, from other lodges do you feel are really
                effective, do you admire?

Gary:           Well I’ve been trying to steal ideas from my competitors and I look at their
                websites and you know, and I try and understand what they’re doing for their
                marketing. But I think the one that appears to be most successful is Plummer’s,
                like on a large scale. And I think—they don’t share their information and
                strategies. I see them as having a lot of corporate clients that are repeat. And
                some of the other larger lodges, like Knowlton [ph] maybe, or Kasba. I hear talk
                at shows that, oh, this—he managed to get say, this particular corporate group
                who’d been going to Plummer’s for years, and then, about two years later the
                guys go back to Plummer’s. So some of these corporate groups are sort of shared



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       111
                back and forth. That’s a market I’ve never been able to sort of penetrate, which, I
                guess I’m a little envious there, I still have to figure out how to do it or get
                smarter.

John:           How are your clientele changing demographically? You touched on this a little
                bit, but how else have they changed, if at all? Age, ethnic background, origin,
                gender? Are they traveling more with family and friends than on business?
                Income levels higher or lower?

Gary:           I don’t know. I think, I mean the oldest guy we ever had fishing with us was 94,
                he and his grandson, and his sons. His sons, grandson and great grandson, four
                generations. We’ve got another group of guys that are getting really old that have
                been coming up here since 1983, so that’s 23 years. So these guys were in their
                40s, their 50s, and their 60s, and pushing 80 some of them. So some of these
                guys are getting older. But we get a lot of fathers, sons, daughters. I’ve got, you
                know, a father with two daughters and two little sons coming up this year. So I
                don’t know that it’s changed. I just haven’t—like, I mean, we get a mix of—well
                like this group was—I mean these guys are getting old and some of them are
                going to die pretty soon. So you know, some of my clients are getting older, so
                we’re hopefully recruiting some newer and younger people. Our hunting, I guess
                is more—well you’re talking fishing, eh?

John:           Yes.


Gary:           Because our hunters are, our hunts are twice or three times as expensive. So we
                tend to get older hunters because it’s the guys who can afford it, the professionals
                and businessmen who’re retired. Fishing, we get a mix.

John:           Okay. Any changes that are dramatic other than age?

                If you can’t think of anything off the bat then—

Gary:           I don’t know, we had a gay couple last year.

John:           Did you? Fishing or hunting?

Gary:           Fishing.

John:           All right, well that’s a change. It’s the first I’ve heard of. You never know there
                may be a big market in that.

Gary:           Well, there could be actually. I saw something on the Internet about that.

John:           Yeah. Well, let me know. In the past did you own or operate your own aircraft to
                service your lodge?



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        112
Gary:           No, we—one year we leased a—well a pilot—a plane—a guy who had his own
                plane, and he flew for us.

John:           Did the regulations from the—the change in the regulations from the Canadian
                Transport Authority after 911 restricting lodge owners from owning and
                operating their own planes affect your operation at all?

Gary:           To be honest I wasn’t even aware of that, per se, because we had already—it
                wasn’t a viable idea with us, we charter and we’ve never been able to justify
                owning and operating our own aircraft.

John:           Okay. How many people do you employ each season?

Gary:           Well with Mackay and Warburton Bay, when we’re busy, a little over 30 staff.

John:           Okay. What challenges do you encounter of the area of employee hiring or in
                maintaining your employees?

Gary:           Well one of the things which is ongoing is that we recruit people sort of at the
                entry level and you know, people who haven’t had jobs, or young people, or even
                middle-aged people from the smaller communities that may have, you know,
                problems with English, but like the guiding, the lifestyle. And in a couple of
                years if they’re any good they end up with jobs at the mines or with government
                or somewhere. So we’re always recruiting and training people, and there’s no
                support for that. There’s millions and millions of dollars going into training
                people for the mines. But I believe we are a training ground for the mines and are
                just—for the reason I’ve just explained, we hire people—after a couple of years
                they’ll apply to a mine and use us as a reference and get a job and we’ve lost
                them. There’s no recognition that training and recruitment in tourism is ongoing.
                There should be ongoing training programs at the entry level, and in hospitality.
                But guiding in particular is one of the areas.

John:           What do you feel are the key ingredients to running a successful sport fishing
                operation?

Gary:           Well it’s a whole range of cost, getting there, you know, in a reasonably quick
                and economic way, and then the service, and your guides are your frontline
                people, and then your kitchen and housekeeping staff and your facilities and
                equipment. It’s, I mean, it’s everything, a total experience. Because the fishery is
                an important part of it but having a good fishery doesn’t make you a successful
                lodge.

John:           Okay, all right. Fantastic.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        113
Interview with Ms. Robin Wotherspoon, Watta Lake Lodge

Q:              Okay. I’m here with Robin Wotherspoon at Watta Lake Lodge. Robin, what do
                you think are the reasons behind the decline in the number of guests to your
                lodge over the past five years? And, actually, I’m just looking at your response,
                and you had an increase from 2000 to 2001, then a decrease, then a remained
                unchanged, and then a decrease, and then a remained unchanged. What do you
                think are the reasons behind that?

Robin
Wotherspoon: Well, I think there’s a number of reasons, not a—and I’m going to leave fires and
             BSE and 911 out of the mix because, you know, you can only blame those kind of
             things for so long. And really, I think, the bottom line is that as a Territories
             Association, we have not marketed fishing and/or hunting as we did in the past,
             ten years ago. So, I think the lack of marketing initiatives put forth by associations
             and/or by myself personally are mostly responsible for the lack of even interest in
             enquiring about fishing packages and whatnot. I think there are lots of fisher
             persons out there. We just don’t know exactly where they are, and we’re just not
             getting to them.

Q:              Okay. How do you think the industry’s participants can work together to turn
                things around and slow or reverse a decline in business?

Robin
Wotherspoon: Well, I think that if we continue to put programs, advertising programs, together,
             we continue to lobby to the Association to keep funding--a minimum amount of
             marketing funds available for our sectors, the hunting and fishing. I think that that
             will lead to greater interest, and I think that—I think that we have a lot of lodges
             who are willing to participate in that kind of programming.

Q:              Okay. What are your thoughts on a group purchasing organisation or a group
                purchasing opportunity for NWT fishing lodges and outfitters?

Robin
Wotherspoon: I suspect that we’ve all been doing our own individual things and, accordingly,
             we don’t have very much power. So, the little guy who is only able to take 12
             people, as I am, racking up against a bigger lodge on Great Slave Lake, say, who
             can handle 40 people on any given day, we don’t tend to band together to
             purchase things like air. And air has now become such a large part of our expense
             that I actually think if we talked to each other that we might have a better
             opportunity to deal with these airline charter companies. Although I have to say in


John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      114
                the last five years, they have decreased in numbers from when we used to have
                about 10 that now we have two. So, I don’t know whether or not that would be
                effective, but it certainly would be worth a try.

Q:              Okay. What type of outside support do you feel would assist the industry in
                reversing or slowing the decline?

Robin
Wotherspoon: Outside, you mean outside the territories, or outside our personal lodge?

Q:              Sorry, outside of the industry. So, government, in particular.

Robin
Wotherspoon: Right.

Q:              Or associations, membership associations, such as NWT Tourism.

Robin
Wotherspoon: Right. I think we got a lot of good out of the NWT Tourism Association already,
             although they have other sectors to be involved with too and, once again, I really
             think that if they—we just need to keep pushing them to put more dollars into the
             marketing pot. Outside of that, I don’t know of any avenue unless we—as an
             Association, and a band of outfitters. If we were to approach some other fishing
             clubs, that kind of thing, and try and get them online. That might encourage some
             traffic into the NWT too. So maybe we need to encourage our Association to
             become members of some of these fishing clubs and whatnot so that they have
             readily available access and links to our websites.

Q:              Okay. I’m just taking some notes as we go along. Okay. Robin, what, in your
                opinion, can be done—if anything can be done—to help ease the high cost of
                doing business as a fishing lodge or outfitter in the Northwest Territories? Is there
                anything government can do?

Robin
Wotherspoon: I don’t know if there’s anything that government can do because, quite frankly,
             our fees and licensing—establishment licensing fees are $150. That’s fairly, you
             know, I mean that’s negligible in the grand scheme of things. But I think, as an
             association, we really should band together for the whole industry, not, for the
             whole tourism industry, not even specifically fishing. But I think we’re going to
             have to band together and try to approach insurance companies and find some
             cheaper insurance for adventure outfitters, and for all outfitters, because the time
             has come and gone when they’re starving hungry, when they had all their losses
             as of 911 and other things. They had a lot of losses.

                Well, obviously, last year at the end of their fiscal year, insurance companies are
                right back up there as being the towering, you know, overall profit makers. So, I



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        115
                think it’s time to shop around for more insurance and time to say to the people
                that, you know, we have been working with, who have increased our insurance
                over the last five years, “Hey, hey, wait a minute. We’re going shopping.” So—
                and insurance is a big one, one of the only ones that I think we can negotiate on.
                There’s not a whole lot of other things that we have in common unless we found
                ourselves as fishing operators all talking together, unless we found ourselves in a
                position where we could co-op and buy boats and/or motors—product like that.

                There is going to be a big issue come along within a very short timeframe. Like it
                was a few years ago already that boats were—the emission standards have
                changed on boats, and so now you can’t use two strokes—you can use what you
                have, but you can’t buy two strokes any more. Or, if you should do, you’re
                certainly foolish because four strokes are mandatory.

                We’re also going to see coming into the light here marine liability issues with the
                boats. Also, federal licensing issues. Transportation Canada has now taken the
                task of licensing all of the marine vehicles if you have more than a 10 horsepower
                kicker. So that’s really going to affect us when that hits the Northwest Territories.
                At this time, it’s more prominent—you know, for five or six years, they’ve been
                doing this in Ontario and whatever, and they’re not going to wait too much longer
                before they come knocking on our door and say, “Hey, you have to register all
                your boats. You have to do this. You have to do that. You have to have these
                training courses, safety courses, certified courses.” It’s just going to come whether
                we want it or not.

Q:              Okay.

Robin
Wotherspoon: So, you know, the government sort of can maybe help us in that sense and help us
             get in place—[audio cuts out]

Q:              Hello, Hello.

Robin
Wotherspoon: …some of the guides, fishing guides and hunting guides and, you know, just say
             to them, “Well, you have to take this course and be certified.” They just sort of
             look at you like you’ve got two heads, but, at the same time, it’s going to be some
             little damn ticket that they’ve got to have in their pocket. So, we better—that’s
             one place where we could focus and say to the government, “You know what, get
             these courses set up and give them to us. Help us, you know, help us train our
             people.” And they’re in the money right now that they want to train people, so
             that’s one way they could help operators do that.

Q:              Okay. What kind of support have your suppliers offered you, if they’ve offered
                anything, in the past in terms of, for example, co-marketing opportunities with
                them—anything?



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        116
Robin
Wotherspoon: No. Nothing.

Q:              Okay. What kind of assistance for marketing, specifically, would you like to see
                from NWT Tourism? Or—well, yes, from NWT Tourism?

Robin
Wotherspoon: I guess I would like to see—I would like to have seen the Consumer Trade Show
             program. It has now, effectively April 1, come back into Tourism Association’s
             lap. It used to be done by the government, all done by government people. We are
             going to receive some funding for that, but it’s not to the extent that it could have
             been, where we could set up the—we had an old Consumer Show program where
             they would buy the booth for you, and you would get assisted travel from the
             airline companies, and then the rest was yours. So, it worked out to about 50/50.

Q:              Right.

Robin
Wotherspoon: We haven’t had that for about six or seven years, and I think that would be a big
             step in the right direction. Plus, with all the research that’s being done in the last
             few years and, more specifically, in the last few months on the rebranding and
             whatnot, they are recognising who our target market is. And that information will
             be invaluable to all of the operators. I mean, that’s where you should be selling
             your product. So, you know, that’s the kind of stuff that has to come to us
             directly.

Q:              Okay. What types of new marketing initiatives would you like to see from a
                regional perspective? So, for example, in terms of how the Northwest Territories
                is promoted to potential tourists?

Robin
Wotherspoon: Well, it’s funny that you should ask that because like, okay, they’re doing this—
             they’re doing a rebranding right now. So, they’re going to be finding out a lot of
             things from southern people that come here to visit, and they’re going to be
             finding—asking questions like, “What do you think of the Territories? What do
             you think when you see this picture? What do you think when you that picture?”
             So, that’s going to have a big effect on us in the next five or six months. That’s all
             going to come to fruition and, hopefully, that will say to us, “Quit marketing in
             Switzerland. You know, your whole focus should be in the United States. Or it
             should only be in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, you know, and more specific,
             United States people. Your focus should be, maybe, in Canada, in Saskatchewan,
             southern Saskatchewan, southern Manitoba and southern Alberta. Don’t even go
             to Ontario because, you know, you’re way out of the league out there in Ontario.”




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       117
                And/or maybe we need to be going—maybe we need to be tapping into our Asian
                market that’s already coming here and encouraging them to come to see fishing,
                and Aurora in the fall before it’s 48 below, because that happens too. So,
                there’s—I think that we’ll get a lot of valuable information from the surveys that
                are being done right now, and I hope that it gets passed on. Then, with the results
                of this survey, we can actually accomplish something at the end.

Q:              Okay. Have you had to shift your marketing for Watta Lake and advertising and
                your marketing plan in the past few years or recently to address the shift in the
                market?

Robin
Wotherspoon: Oh, absolutely. Yes.

Q:              How so?

Robin
Wotherspoon: Oh, well, I don’t think the address to the shift in the market is because of people. I
             think it’s just the fact that I haven’t, physically and dollar-wise, been able to do
             any grand marketing. I had to quit doing the Trade Shows in ’97, ’98 when the
             American dollar was so strong. It was just—and then the Consumers Show
             program was gone, so there was no assistance at all from the government or the
             Association. It was just—I just didn’t—I wasn’t—I don’t think that I was going to
             the right marketplaces and so wasn’t seeing any results from the places I was
             going to. So, basically, I think, we’ve probably done better by getting our website
             up and running than anything that we’ve done for marketing.

Q:              Okay. Compared to how you market your fishing operation today, do you see this
                changing in the future?

Robin
Wotherspoon: Yes. I would like—I see—I am working on putting together different packages. I
             think that’s going to have to be a focus that I actually get a package together to
             sell that’s more than just fishing. I want them to come to the Territories, stay
             longer, see more sort of thing. Like the, you know, like the tag line is—and I think
             in order to do that, then I have to put some packages together. I have to have a day
             in town with the day tour, go to the [Ledge] Assembly, go to the museum, maybe
             a restaurant, The Wildcat Café. So, yeah, I think I really have to work on putting a
             package together that will probably attract more couples, men and women. I think
             that there are a lot of women coming now that are interested in going fishing, but
             they don’t want to stay there for a week. They want to be there for three days or
             four days, and then they want to do some “women” things—more women things,
             you know, like a little shopping or a little culture.

Q:              Okay. So, more time in Yellowknife and more culture than wilderness
                experience?



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      118
Robin
Wotherspoon: Yes, and it might not even be particularly Yellowknife. It might have to—I would
             like to tag on more with other things that are going on in Yellowknife like, or
             even in Inuvik. If there’s a big convention in Inuvik, and the people are coming
             through Yellowknife, maybe they can get off the plane and stay for three days and
             come fishing sort of thing, you know.

                And so—and there are lots of things to do in Inuvik, and maybe a package should
                be Yellowknife, 4 days; Inuvik, 3 days. I think that, you know, within the
                Association, we have enough people that we could start putting those kinds of
                packages together, so we’re all using—so we might all benefit from the same
                eight people. More people will benefit from the eight people rather than just my
                lodge and the airline. Maybe Inuvik hotels and restaurants and some tour
                company up there will benefit as well. And I think we’re really going to have to
                work towards that packaging business and then get some tour wholesalers
                onboard that are interested in selling it.

Q:              Okay. What marketing strategies—okay, so when you consider your competitors
                from the Northwest Territories, and even elsewhere, in Alaska, the Yukon—are
                there any marketing strategies that you see from your competitors that you feel
                are pretty amazing and superior in attracting fishermen?

Robin
Wotherspoon: Well, I think we’re pretty darn lucky so far that we have such clean air and clean
             water up here. I think that our biggest competitor is Northern Ontario, where
             people can fly, or people can drive in. They don’t have to fly. So, there is no way
             that I can compete with that. I can’t build a road, but I think that we have to
             promote the fact you can drink the water right out of the lake. It’s not going to kill
             you, you know, and you can eat the fish right out of the lake. Even in British
             Columbia now they have to have their fish graded at lodges to be able to serve
             them to people. And that’s not the case up here because our fish are really
             healthy; our waters are healthy still. So, somehow, we have to get that across to
             people. This is a better place to fish.

Q:              Okay. In your opinion, Robin, what competitors of yours do a really good job, or
                an effective job, in attracting fishermen from a marketing perspective?

Robin
Wotherspoon: Well, there are a couple of lodges here in the Territories that are on bigger lakes,
             so they get bigger fish. But I’ve never—I’ve always used smaller fish to my
             advantage because I have four species. So, I sort of—I don’t promise people that
             they’re going to catch a 40 pound lake trout because it’s not going to happen. On
             the other hand, they could very easily catch 22, 23, 24 pound.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      119
Q:              Let me just stop you there. Sorry. What I’m looking to know here is what other
                companies do a really good job out there, who are competitors of yours. I mean,
                specifically naming the lodges, who do you admire in terms of being a good
                competitor who you know is--?

Robin
Wotherspoon: I would have said a year ago—I don’t know about the past year, but two years
             ago, Pilote Point was. I really admired those people. I think they really went the
             nine yards to provide the kind of service that—I can provide service, but I don’t
             have the physical aspects, and they went out of their—you know, they really went
             all out to have the physical aspects of it as well. And also, you know, Blanchford
             does a pretty good job that way, but I don’t think their service is as good as ours,
             so—so there.

Q:              Okay. In terms of marketing—in terms of initial impression, I guess, in any
                advertising form, you know, it’s Pilote Point, Blanchford? Okay?

Robin
Wotherspoon: Yes. I would say that Blanchford really is at the top of the list. He doesn’t even
             promote fishing all that much, but that’s the deal. I mean, he’s managed to expand
             and have a bigger, open mind about what he has available, and his marketing is
             accordingly. Also, I have to admire the marketing lengths that Bathurst Inlet
             Lodge does. They do an excellent job also.

Q:              Okay. Now, in terms of clientele, how are your clientele changing
                demographically, if they’ve changed at all? I mean, in terms of age, ethnic
                background, where they come from, gender, whether they’re on business or with
                friends?

Robin
Wotherspoon: I don’t think I’ve seen any change. I have businessmen. I have old cronies that
             like to travel together for many years. I have—I would have to say in the last
             eight years, I’ve seen more women.

Q:              Okay.

Robin
Wotherspoon: More, either spouses or just women.

Q:              More fly fishermen?

Robin
Wotherspoon: No. They’re keen to troll for trout and/or cast for jackfish. We have to walk down
             into an area for Arctic greeling, and it’s very overhung on the sides of the river.
             So, it’s a little—and the river runs so fast there, and it’s quite deep. So, it’s very




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      120
                difficult to get in there with waders, but it can be done. But I wouldn’t specifically
                say that the women were fly fishermen. They were just women.

Q:              Okay. Now, I know the answer to this question, but I’m going to ask it anyways.
                In the past—you may be familiar with this question, I know you are—In the past,
                did you own or operate your own aircraft to service your lodge?
Robin
Wotherspoon: Yes, we did.

Q:              Did the regulation changes from the Canadian Transport Authority, restricting
                lodge owners from owning and operating their own planes, affect your operation?

Robin
Wotherspoon: Yes, it did.

Q:              How so?

Robin
Wotherspoon: Well, we could have owned—we were in partnership with a charter company, and
             when they lost their license, their charter license, we still could maintain our
             aircraft to fly staff and family and clients in and out from the lodge. But when the
             regulations changed, we were not able to do that unless we had our own operating
             certificate, which is incredibly difficult to maintain. It’s not so hard to get. You
             have to write a manual and you have to—so, I mean, like it’s a huge thing, but
             you have to have an Operations Manager. You have to have an engineer. You
             have to, you know, you have to be in the charter business, and at that time our
             partnership with our current charter company had fallen off. Then the rules
             changed, and we just—we had to sell our aircraft.

Q:              Okay. How many people do you employ each season?

Robin
Wotherspoon: In the last three years, I have had only myself and three others, three young men.
             Then, I’ve been very fortunate to have family and friends help out.

Q:              Okay. So, you employ, other than yourself, three others?

Robin
Wotherspoon: At a max and only part time, not full time.

Q:              Okay. So, during the season. Okay. Can you please tell me about your typical
                employee? Are they—let me give you an example—are they from the Northwest
                Territories? Not from the Northwest Territories? Are they young? Are they
                university students? Are they professional guides? Seasonal workers?

Robin



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                         121
Wotherspoon: They are—they live in the Northwest Territories year round. They come and
             guide on request, as needed. They work full-time jobs. They are 28 to 34 years
             old. They are experienced guides and boat drivers and very, very good with
             people. At this time, none of them are Aboriginal.

Q:              Okay. What challenges, if any, Robin, do you encounter in the area of employee
                hiring or in employee retention?

Robin
Wotherspoon: Well, seasonal operations and employee retention are always a difficult thing. But
             when the new legislation, the new marine liability stuff comes into play, then
             you’re going to have to have certified guides and certified boat drivers. I spoke to
             this before but the certified boat-driving thing is not such a big deal. Like, you can
             actually get—I already have the DVD disk. It’s just a matter of everybody taking
             the course and then getting set up with someone to evaluate it or help us write the
             test, and that would be fine.

                But when we need to have number one guides, certified guides, now we’re
                looking at CPR courses. In actual fact, today I got an FYI from the Association
                and a training course, a guide training course, is happening and for each guide it’s
                $3,000 a person. Now that’s going to get them their boat certification. That’s
                going to get them their CPR, standard CPR—I don’t think anything above that.
                Wilderness Survival thing—but $3,000? Geez, I can’t even afford to learn how to
                do all that stuff myself. That’s going to be pretty difficult.

Q:              Okay. What do you feel are the key ingredients to running a successful sport
                fishing operation?

Robin
Wotherspoon: The key ingredients. Let me see. Well, I would have to say hospitality, hospitality,
             hospitality. Because we already have location, location, location. So, I think that
             all people enjoy themselves if they’re looked after properly.

Q:              Okay. Great.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       122
Interview with Mr. David Evans, Canadian Wild

Q:              And I’m with David Evans of Canadian Wild. David, I’m trying to analyze trends
                here over the past five years, in terms of guest numbers and revenue to lodges in
                the Northwest Territories. I’ve notice that things, up until the 2003 season, the
                previous three years, you’d had an increase in 2002. Two Thousand and Three
                and Two Thousand and One, your revenue seems to have remained unchanged.
                Two Thousand and Four and Two Thousand and Five you selected a decrease.
                What do think are the reasons behind that decline over the past two years?

David Evans: Exchange rate, fuel cost, airline cost, and probably because, let’s face it, the bulk
             of the—it’s not cheap to fly to go fishing up in the Northwest Territories so your
             main revenues are going to come out of the U.S. And they’re going to be
             American travelers. And they have the greenbacks to spend. But I think
             tightened border security and just that whole fear is causing a lot of headaches at
             the borders.

                Americans will want to travel to—if you’ve been convicted of a DWI, they give
                you a hard time. And a lot of people just don’t want to bother. If you’re an
                American and you look at eight years ago when a dollar was worth Can$1.50,
                your purchasing power was great. You go up to a nice pristine location. The
                price was reasonable and border security wasn’t as tight.

                Now, you’re a little over par. You got headaches at the border, subject to spot
                random checks at the border while traveling. And it’s just not worth it for them.
                They could go down in Costa Rica for the same amount of money and have just a
                good of time, if not better. Mind you, they’re not going to have the same kind of
                scenery that they get up north but…

Q:              No, for sure.

David Evans: So, I mean, that’s just it in a nutshell. That’s just what I—that’s my personal—
             what’ I’ve heard and experienced. The guys in Canada that travel, it’s a lot of
             money for them. And when there’s limited access to the north, airplane costs
             have gone up consistently over the last three years. Part of that is maybe a fuel
             surcharge but there’s security charges too. So…

Q:              Okay. How do you think the industry’s participants up in the Northwest
                Territories can work together to improve the business climate, to increase their



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                          123
                guest numbers? Is there anything you can think they can do as a group? Perhaps,
                there isn’t?

David Evans: Well the people that are doing the marketing, they can market until the cows
             come home and the government will back it with the dollars. But, really, unless
             the industry itself, the transportation is the most expensive component, let’s say,
             of a trip up there maybe because of the distance, I don’t know, because of the lack
             of traffic going up there, unless they want to kick in some dollars.

                I know that there’s outfitter rates and stuff, which do help a little bit. But $100
                here or $100 there per person, that doesn’t make a big difference to the individual
                traveler. If you’re going to spend $3,000 to go up there, $2,900 is not going to
                make or break the deal, if you’re a serious buyer.

                So the airlines could definitely help. I mean the charters, I don’t know if they
                make a killing or not, but chartering a plane from the commercial landing spots up
                there is not cheap either. So, obviously, for us, our particular cabin, I mean, we
                have to be able to better coordinate the ins and outs. And that just comes down to
                scheduling of the airlines.

                Right now it’s impossible for us to fly a group in and fly them out and have
                another group coming in because of the scheduling. There’s one flight a day into
                Fort Smith, in, and there’s one flight out.

                So, if the government could back additional flights once a week or something that
                might help. If that’s what you were talking about, the government being the…

Q:              Well actually I was thinking in particular with regards to this question, how the
                industry, so how your competitors and you, for example, can work as a group to
                improve the climate? And one of the things you just mentioned, and I’m going
                to—I wrote this down, “As a group they need to, perhaps, put pressure on the
                airlines to get better rates.”

                And that would lead me into my next question, which is what are your thoughts
                on a group purchasing organization for NWT fishing lodges and outfitters for
                things such as liability insurance? Are you—?

David Evans: Oh, I’m a big fan of it. That’s another component that we have to pay for and that
             was looked at. And at the end nobody could come up with any kind of—I guess
             there was no insurance companies out there that would offer out a group policy,
             which to me doesn’t make sense because if individual outfitters can get individual
             policies why couldn’t somebody get a blanket.

Q:              I agree.

David Evans: I don’t understand that.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      124
Q:              So you’d support that if it does happen?

David Evans: Well, yeah, I did. Actually we looked into that. Somebody up there was, the
             government, was looking into some kind of, I forget who it was, a tourism
             industry, tourism arm of the government or whatever, but, I mean, I participated
             in all those surveys and said, “Yeah, I’m interested.”

                And it was pursued. I followed it along. It took about a year to finally get the end
                result and that was that there’s basically no interest from the insurance industry
                because they’re making way too much money. Why expose or why, from their
                perspective, they just don’t want to expose themselves.

Q:              Okay. What type of outside support do you feel would assist the industry in
                improving the business climate, in particular, outside support, I mean, from the
                government?

David Evans: Well, like I said, the most expensive component of a trip up north is a flight. So
             any kind of support that would help defray some of those costs, whether through
             them granting vouchers, maybe, and then paying the airline companies. You can
             market it any way you want but at the end of the day the government dollars have
             to be spent helping to defray the costs of either the commercial airlines and/or the
             charters.

Q:              Okay. I’m just making notes at the same time here.

David Evans: How you put the package together is up to a marketing wizard, how you want to
             do it.

Q:              Okay. What, in your opinion, can be done to help ease the high cost of doing
                business as a fishing lodge in the Northwest Territories? Now you did just pretty
                much answer that question.

David Evans: Reduce airline costs. Unfortunately it’s a catch-22 because you’d have to
             increase the traffic in order to decrease the costs. And when you increase the
             traffic it may or may not impact the environmental side of things. And what
             makes the Northwest Territories so remote and pristine and beautiful is,
             ironically, the fact that there’s not a lot of traffic up there. [Laughs]

Q:              For sure.

David Evans: So maybe there is no simple answer. If you want to go fishing up in the north and
             you want to enjoy some of the cleanest water in the world and freshest air and just
             have something for a once in a lifetime sort of thing, then you’re going to have to
             pay for it. That may ultimately be what it means.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       125
Q:              Okay. What kind of support, if any, have your suppliers offered you in the past?
                An example would be a co-marketing opportunity with a local airline, for
                example, anything that you can think of?

David Evans: Yeah. That was offered to me last year. And I was—they were doing—there was
             a charter service out of Fort Smith that was doing a bunch of trade shows and we
             made the deal that if they got any bookings, we supported them with brochures
             and pricing structure information and all that so that if any serious consumers
             wanted to go to book, anything booked through them or as a result of their efforts
             through these trade shows, we would give them the business over the other one or
             two other guys that are up there.

Q:              Okay. Which airline was it?

David Evans: We did it with—are you in Fort Smith?

Q:              No, I’m not. I’m in Yellowknife.

David Evans: You’re in Yellowknife. Reliance.

Q:              Reliance.

David Evens: Reliance Airways. They have a whole bunch of Cessnas that they fly. They did a
             bunch of trade show last year. So I said, “Yeah, no problem. Here’s our
             brochures. Here’s our pricing. If we get booking because of your efforts, we’ll
             happily fly them on your Cessnas.”

                It was—that part of it I’m not too worried about. It’s getting to the point where
                guys will actually commit to flying out there. Still the best way of marketing is
                word of mouth.

Q:              For sure.

David Evans: You can spend money on brochures and promos and advertising and going to all
             these magazines and stuff. We have a web site. We get monthly hits from people
             interested. But it’s a lot of follow up work for a very little return. Where the
             word of mouth, if people actually, if you can get them out there, that’s—and if
             you can’t get up there, the next best things is, and we’ve done this too, is have TV
             crew fly in there and spend a few days fishing and show what the finished product
             is like, what kind of experience you actually could have.

Q:              Okay. Were flown in on Reliance’s—now is it called Reliance Airways,
                Reliance—?

David Evans: I think Reliance Airways.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       126
Q:              Okay. What kind of assistance for marketing, Dave, would you like to see from
                NWT Tourism?

David Evans: I don’t know. What kind of question is that? [Laughs]

Q:              Well do you have any thoughts on specific expenses you have that you think the
                government could subsidize you on? Have you seen anything done in other
                provinces between the industry and the government with regards to marketing that
                you’d like to see duplicated or do you not have any thoughts on it at this time?

David Evans: Well, again, if there’s some way to subsidize the airlines, whether it’s the
             commercial and if that’s too big, ambitious, a project, maybe with the local
             charters in either Yellowknife, Fort Smith, and all the launching pad towns, or all
             the companies that operate out of the Northwest Territories. That’s a good way to
             defray some the costs. And they say, “Look, normally it would cost this much but
             if you get bookings this year we’ll help pay it, we’ll help support it, by covering
             this much.”

                Because it’s not just the cost of flying the people in, but you have all that food
                you have to fly in because you’re talking about flying in operations. Now if you
                have a landing pad, if you have an airstrip at your lodge, which some operators
                do, that’s great. Like Plummer’s, they get—what do they get normally? I heard
                that normally they get 800 to 900 bookings a year and this year, up until about
                three weeks ago, they only had like 300.

Q:              Wow.

David Evans: So, yeah, they have an airstrip and they have all the bells and whistles, I guess.
             But if you have a big operation like that and all of a sudden it goes dry because,
             mostly, because of the Canadian exchange rate, I’m guessing. Americans think,
             “Well, I don’t get a lot of value out of my dollar so why should I go up there?”

                So, yeah, it’s sub—but anyway back to you question. Subsidizing airline costs is
                one way. Maybe a chance to win a free trip, where the government would
                subsidize the operator, the lodge operator, for one free trip give-a-way or…

Q:              Okay. Free trip giveaways and government would subsidize this. Okay. What
                types of new marketing initiatives, if any, would you like to see from a regional
                perspective? I’m not sure if you’re aware of this but the government’s looking
                into re-branding the Northwest Territories as a region.

                Right now we’ve got the bear symbol. Do you have any thoughts about
                promoting the Northwest Territories as a region? Perhaps, you’re familiar of how
                Alaska does it quite effectively in the States. Is this something you’ve—?




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       127
David Evans: Well the single biggest beautiful thing up there next to pure sight, as far as the
             sense of sight goes, is the Northern Lights. And smell, is the fresh air and the
             oxygen, I don’t know if there’s more oxygen in the air up there. It’s like you get a
             natural high up there.

Q:              Yeah. I know what you mean.

David Evans: The water’s clearer. Those are all ideas, whether you have a bear as your mascot,
             sort of thing. Canada has a beaver.

Q:              So the purity of the environment?

David Evans: Well the purity of it, yeah. But, I mean, the bear itself, I don’t see any problem
             with that. I don’t know if re-branding is going to solve your problems in terms of
             how limited access for overall incoming tourism you have. I don’t know if the
             bear is a bad idea as it is or not. And I don’t know that re-branding will make it
             better.

                But if you had to and you had your mind set on it, it was time for a change then…
                And Northern Lights might be an option. I’ll tell you, I went up there last year
                and I went in July, the first week of July. And I saw—I’ve been going up there
                for the last six years and I’d never seen wildlife, like in terms of moose.

Q:              Really?

David Evans: Yeah. And last year I saw a mother and three calves about 100 feet in front of
             us…

Q:              Wow.

David Evans: …just swimming across from an island to the mainland. And that was pretty
             incredible.

Q:              I didn’t know they could have three calves.

David Evans: Yeah.

Q:              Triplets. That’s amazing.

David Evans: Well, and maybe it was a straggler that got picked up or something. I don’t know.

Q:              Yeah, maybe she adopted it, eh?

David Evans: Yeah, yeah. And then a few days later I saw another mother swimming across
             with two calves and just getting them out of the bush because I guess the bugs
             were bad or moving them to higher ground where it’s windier.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                     128
                And that was incredible for me, just to see how gracefully… Now, I don’t know
                if moose but I mean, you’ve got caribou up there too. Why the bear is your
                current symbol I do not know. I mean, I guess you have a lot of bears but so
                what. So does Canada. [Laughs]

Q:              Yeah. No, I know what you’re saying. Okay.

David Evans: And, I mean, in Ontario here, the Loon is a big thing. Right?

Q:              Yep.

David Evans: But you’ve got lots of Loons up there too. You’ve got Bald Eagles, Golden
             Eagles. I don’t see too many eagles over here. We see lots of hawks but no
             eagles.

Q:              Have you had to shift your marketing or your marketing and advertising plans in
                the past couple of years or a few years to address any shift in the market? Have
                you had to focus on different sectors?

David Evans: Not really. No.

Q:              Okay. Compared to how you market your fishing operation today, how do you
                see this changing in the future?

David Evans: Well you may not like this answer, but until that exchange rate gets a little
             weaker, I don’t think shifting, focusing or—I mean we’ve looked at, we do a lot
             of business into Japan. Our company does. So we’ve always tried to court
             Japanese people because they have a lot of yen and they love the outdoors and
             their image of Canada, overall, is pretty good.

                And I know that you guys get a lot, the Territories, gets a lot of influx of Japanese
                visitors in the wintertime for the Northern Lights. And a lot of Japanese people
                love fishing. But, again, the distance is an issue. It’s a very long way to go just to
                go fishing.

Q:              Are you going to change your product or service offerings in the next couple of
                years to broaden your customer base or are you going to stick with fishing?

David Evans: We’re going to stick with fishing. But if the government changes their law with
             regards to the bear hunt and we’re allowed to get permits in order to offer
             packages for hunting, we would definitely add that.

Q:              Okay. Government changes rules on bear hunting…

David Evans: Because the lodge could easily double as a hunting lodge.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                         129
Q:              Okay. They will offer bear hunting. What marketing strength…

Operator:       One minute remains.

Q:              Oh, darn it.

David Evans: What does that mean?

Q:              Oh, I was calling you on my calling card and it was lower than I thought. They
                will offer bear hunting. I’ve got about six more questions and we’re not going to
                have time for it in a minute. Can I call you back?

David Evans: Yeah.

Q:              I’ll call you in about 15 minutes, if that’s okay?

David Evans: All right. Well I’m going to go out back and cut a rib eye, so make it 20.

Q:              Done. Sounds good. Okay.

David Evans: Bye.

Q:              Bye.



Q:              Sounds great.

David Evans: I don’t know how helpful I’ve been but…

Q:              Nope, you’ve been very helpful. I’m glad that we’re doing this. Okay, this is part
                two with David Evans of Canadian Wild. David what marketing strategies from
                competitive destinations do you feel are superior in attracting the sport fishing
                market? Is there anything that you can think of, you’ve seen other companies do
                in terms of their marketing that you think is really effective?

David Evans: Yes. Having your own airstrip on site is one advantage. It allows you to plan
             your charter flights in and out.

Q:              In a better way than—?

David Evans: The bigger operations, also, can offer individual bookings at maybe a nominal
             fee. Whereas, with us, it makes a big difference whether two people go or eight
             people go per trip. So just the size of the operation, obviously, you get economies
             at scale. And then the bigger the operation, all the more marketing dollars they



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                     130
                can throw at advertising and promos and trying to spend money even just to
                attend the trade shows.

Q:              Okay. In your opinion, what competitive sport fishing destinations do an
                effective job at attracting the sports fisherman from a marketing perspective? So,
                specifically, are there any lodges out there that you really—?

David Evans: Plummer’s.

Q:              Plummer’s?

David Evans: Plummer’s Lodge. Yeah.

Q:              Okay. Anything else?

David Evans: Tazin does a pretty good job but they’re in Alberta, I think.

Q:              That’s okay. How do you spell that?

David Evans: I think it’s T-A-Z-E-N or T-A-Z-I-N.

Q:              Okay.

David Evans: Yeah. They’re in Northern Alberta I think but…

Q:              Okay. How long has Canadian Wild been in business?

David Evans: What I do want to say, 2000, maybe 1999, 2000.

Q:              Okay. And have you noticed that your clientele have changed demographically in
                the past five years or so? Can you tell me a bit about your clientele, their age,
                where they’re from, the gender?

David Evans: It tends to be older people, meaning 35 up because young kids, if they have that
             kind of money, they don’t want to be spending it going fishing in the wilderness.
             Now having said that, there’s last year, we had one guy from Japan, he was I
             think 20, 20 years old. But this guy is an exceptional Japanese guy anyway. All
             he wants to do is fish. But, yeah, most of the clients are male, not female, and I
             would say between the ages of 30 and 45. And have I noticed a change in the
             types of people?

Q:              Are most of the men—?

David Evans: In the last couple of years there’s been more international clients as opposed to
             North American. And, again, that’s probably a result of the high dollar, the
             Canadian dollar value and Canadians can’t afford to go up there or don’t want to



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      131
                spend their money doing that. They’d rather go to Mexico for an all-inclusive
                week and save up and go in the wintertime because they can’t convince the wife
                to let them go fishing for a week, which, if you’re married, that’s true.
                And the Americans don’t want to come up anymore so, I mean, last year we went
                up, there was a guy from England, a guy from Australia, a guy from Japan, three
                guys from Canada and guy from the U.S. in one trip. So, yeah, there’s—and
                we’ve had hits even this year on guys from Europe that are willing to go with
                another group, to join with any single guys, single meaning one person or maybe
                two people. They realize that, yeah, obviously the cost is too high just for two of
                them to go in but they’d be willing to join other groups. So…

Q:              Have you ever, in the past, have you ever owned your own aircraft to service your
                lodge?

David Evans: No. Never.

Q:              Have regulations, changes from the Canadian Transport Authority effecting air
                transport, has this affected your operation at all?

David Evans: I wouldn’t say so. No.

Q:              Okay. How many people do you employ each season?

David Evans: Other, sorry, other than the actual cost…

Q:              Right. Okay. So it has affected it by raising costs?

David Evans: Yes. But as far as the regulations changing, I don’t think that that’s impacted us
             one way or another. Like if they say before you could carry 60 pounds per person
             now it’s 50, regulations like that haven’t impacted us.

Q:              Okay. How many people do you employ each season at The Canadian Wild?

David Evans: None.

Q:              Okay.

David Evans: [Phone Rings] Hold on one sec, please?

Q:              Sure. The final question is…

David Evans: Five is my answer.

Q:              Five. [Laughs] What do you feel are key ingredients, David, to running a
                successful sport fishing operation?




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       132
David Evans: Well the people that run it are number one because when you go up to a camp for
             a week and you’re going to be in an isolated area, a lot of people, and I mean it’s
             isolated up there, they have to made to feel comfortable. So if the
             owner/proprietors, or if they do have staff, we don’t have staff members, but the
             owners usually take care of the guests when they go up there. You’ve got to
             make them feel at home and comfortable.

                So if you have good people skills and you know how to deal with—each group is
                different. Sometimes we have international, cultural, differences. You just have
                to keep a pretty open mind and safety is paramount, of course. But, when people
                are done fishing all day, if at the end of the day if they can sit around the fire and
                shoot the breeze about all the big ones that got away or that they got and how
                much fun they’re having, you want to leave an impression in their mind that
                when they left they think, “that’s one of the best trips I ever went on.” And,
                “Yeah, it’s expensive but damn it’s good and I may get back there again.” Or,
                “I’m definitely going back next year.” Because even all those people who swear
                that they’re coming back, they don’t always do because of the realities of their
                situation.

                But you’re not just selling—I guess when you’re selling the lodge, it’s the people
                that run it that ultimately will filter down their attitude, their outlook, their
                personalities, that will rub off. So good people running the lodge means repeat
                business. That’s a given that, yes, you have Northern Lights. That’s out of our
                control. You have pristine air and water and beautiful scenery and lots of fish
                and big fish as well as many fish. That’s all a given. Right? You don’t have any
                control over that. So if you have a guide too, it would be worthwhile to have a
                good guide. [Laughs] So, but again, that’s just the people that run the lodge.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                         133
Interview with Ms. Laurie Evanitski, Dog Paddle Adventures

Interviewer:    Okay. I’m here with Laurie Evanitski, with DogPaddle Adventures. Laurie, what
                do you think are the reasons behind the decline in the number of guests to your
                outfitting service over the past five years? And I should, actually, maybe reword
                this question because I’m just looking at your response and your business
                increased in the 2003 season and didn’t decrease last year; however, people have,
                or some members of the industry have suffered a serious decrease in the past few
                years. Do you have any thoughts on why that would be?

Laurie
Evanitski:      Oh, definitely. A lot of it has to do, obviously, with terrorism and fear of travel
                and stuff like that, plus the airline prices. So, to come to Yellowknife has either
                stayed steady or gone up where, you know, airline prices to other destinations
                have been slowly dropping due to the competition. Plus, there are no direct flights
                to Yellowknife from any International, and that makes a big difference for
                tourism operations.

Interviewer:    Okay. How do you think the industry’s participants, and by industry I mean the
                sport fishing outfitters industry here in the Northwest Territories—how do you
                think members of that industry can work together to improve things, to turn things
                around and slow or reverse a decline in business?

Laurie
Evanitski:      Well, basically, I think there needs to be less competition between sport fishing
                outfitters. I mean, obviously, there’s a lot of fish in these waters and, you know,
                less competition and more joint ventures say, as joint advertising and things like
                that would increase, you know, tourism dollars to the area. Otherwise, I’m not
                really informed, you know, a lot about that issue.

Interviewer:    Okay. Well, this actually leads--considering your thoughts there, this is an
                appropriate question. What are your thoughts on a group purchasing organization
                for Northwest Territory fishing lodges and outfitters? Do you, for example, if you
                can group together and save money on something like liability insurance, would
                you be in favor of—would you consider participating in that?

Laurie
Evanitski:      If sport fishing was our main concern, then yes, definitely. But just being a
                member of other tourism organizations that already offer those discounts on
                insurance, personally, I wouldn’t be interested in participating because I already
                have that through our tourism organization.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        134
Interviewer:    Okay. What type of outside support, Laurie, do you feel would assist the industry
                in reversing or slowing the decline in business over the past five years? In
                particular--
Laurie
Evanitski:      Well, there’s a number of things, one of which is—go ahead.

Interviewer:    I was referring to government support in particular.

Laurie
Evanitski:      Okay. Well, I understood that. I was just about to answer that government support
                would be a key issue, financial support, in allowing new lodges to set up. A lot of
                the problems with new lodges is red tape, and it gets very, very difficult for a new
                lodge to open and operate in the Northwest Territories. You have to go through
                years of consultations, a lot of money, and, in the end, they’re still not sure
                whether they’re going to be licensed to operate or not. If the government could
                somehow alleviate some of that and cut down on some of the red tape and, you
                know, start promoting, you know, the operation of new fishing industries to allow
                this tourism and the fishing opportunities to grow and prosper instead of
                regulating them to death, then I certainly think that would help.

Interviewer:    Okay. Thank you. What, in your opinion, if anything, can be done to help ease the
                high cost of doing business as a fishing lodge and outfitter in the Northwest
                Territories? Now, I realize you’re not a fishing lodge, but—

Laurie
Evanitski:      [inaudible] That’s right, but even as a general outfitter, I guess, it comes down to
                bureaucracy and so many regulations that need to be met that it costs a great deal
                of money just to qualify for those particular licenses, either fishing or otherwise.

Interviewer:    Okay. I’m just taking—

Laurie
Evanitski:      Plus there’s a lot of land that’s used and once the—most of the land issues,
                particularly First Nations issues—once most of those issues are settled, I think it
                will become easier for many different operations and fishing outfitters or other
                outfitters to get their licenses and be able to operate without so much expense.

Interviewer:    Okay. What kind of support, if you’ve received any, from your suppliers? Have
                your suppliers offered you any sort of co-advertising or co-marketing
                opportunities? Have they realized that prices have gone up to such a degree that
                they’ve offered to help you out in any way? Have they been willing to partner
                with you in any areas?

Laurie




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        135
Evanitski:      Actually, again, this question doesn’t really apply to us because, as far as out
                fishing operations go, our main supplier is Canadian Tire. So, I guess that
                question doesn’t really apply to us.

Interviewer:    Okay. But even in any of your other suppliers for other areas of your business—
                have they—has there been any creativity in terms of your relationship other than
                just--?

Laurie
Evanitski:      No, because dogsledding is kind of a unique, and the other areas that we operate
                are unique. Most of our suppliers are actually down South. It is very difficult to
                get any sort of dogsledding equipment or that sort of thing locally. So, of course,
                our southern suppliers aren’t really concerned with trying to make life easier for
                us here in the North.

                And, of course, shipping becomes an issue, which helps increase the cost of
                operating in the North as well.

Interviewer:    Laurie, I just got a strange—did you hear that on the phone?

Laurie
Evanitski:      I heard this—I just heard a quiet—kirsh, kirsh, kirsh, something like that.

Interviewer:    Oh, okay.

Laurie
Evanitski:      That’s all I heard.

Interviewer:    Oh, okay. I’m going to have to call you back in about 30 seconds. I’m sorry. Is
                that all right?

Laurie
Evanitski:      No problem.

Interviewer:    Okay, great. I’ll call you right back.

Laurie
Evanitski:      Okay.

Interviewer:    Thanks.

Laurie
Evanitski:      Bye.

Interviewer:    Bye.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                          136
[Start of Part II]

Interviewer:    Okay, Laurie, what kind of assistance for marketing would you like to see from
                NWT Tourism?

Laurie
Evanitski:      Basically, group marketing, I think, would be a great idea, even to advertise with
                publications within NWT Marketing—NWT Tourism. It is fairly expensive for
                the little operators such as ourselves, and if there’s any way that they could
                produce publications but that were less expensive to advertise in, then that would
                help out considerably. Because as a small operation, we can’t afford the large ads
                in even just the basic tourism publications from the Northwest Territories.

Interviewer:    Okay.

Laurie
Evanitski:      Which, of course, is fine for the large, you know, lodges and tourism operators
                who have the advertising funds for something like that, but for the small
                operators, that makes it very difficult.

Interviewer:    Sure. Okay. What types of new marketing initiatives would you like to see from a
                regional perspective? And this question specifically refers to the concept of
                branding; so, the Northwest Territories branded as a region. Any thoughts on—?

Laurie
Evanitski:      I think it’s a great idea. I have been trying to participate with Northwest
                Territories Tourism in their efforts to create a brand for the Northwest Territories.
                Other than that, I mean, sorry to say, but I think it’s a good idea to promote the
                Northwest Territories. I don’t know what else exactly you’re asking, so--.

Interviewer:    Okay. Well, I guess, what I’m asking is do you have any opinions on the way that
                they presently market the NWT as a region? And do you have any opinions on
                how it could be done or how you would prefer to see it done?

Laurie
Evanitski:      Well, I do have one fairly strong opinion, and this may go against the whole
                fishing operations, but I found that the branding or the Northwest Territories
                advertising focuses 90 to 95 percent on summertime operations. And the other,
                you know, 5 to 10 percent is Aurora—is Aurora viewing, and I think that there’s a
                lot more winter operations in the Northwest Territories that could be promoted.

                I see in the, say the Explorer’s Guide, they have one little, a few pages on
                dogsledding and then everything else is summer. Not dogsledding—a few pages
                on winter with, you know, a few little pictures of dogsledding, and then the rest is
                summertime operations. I think that it’s a—they could certainly use—stand to
                market the winter in the Northwest Territories a little bit, a little bit more.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        137
Interviewer:    Okay. Have you had to shift your marketing and advertising plan in the past few
                years to address any changes in the market?

Lauri
Evanitski:      Well, when we first started our business, we kind of assumed that we’d be able to
                get in on the Japanese tourism. Now, the Japanese tourism fell off considerably
                with SARS and, you know, terrorism and then the price of flights getting higher,
                so we’ve actually had to shift our marketing to more local and Canadian
                advertising. We’re trying. I mean, we haven’t really seen a trend so much, but
                we’re trying to shift towards the European marketing as well just because we find
                that’s where the people are from that like to do the types of activities that we
                offer.

Interviewer:    Very interesting. Okay.

Lauri
Evanitski:      Particularly Germans. I guess we’d have to say that they get marketed
                [indiscernible].

Interviewer:    Remind me. I’ve got some thoughts on Germans and the Canadian wilderness
                when we’re finished this. Okay. Compared to how you market your operation
                today, Laurie, how do you see this changing in the future, if you do at all? Is there
                something that you’re planning on doing differently? I don’t want you to give
                away any trade secrets.

Lauri
Evanitski:      Oh, no, there’s no—there’s no secrets. We’d just like to go more Internationally.
                We’d like to have, instead of our clientele being local or just family that’s coming
                up to visit somebody locally, we’d like to have people coming from, you know,
                the United States or Canada or even Europe, especially Germans that actually
                come here for our particular tourism operations and you’d come to spend a week
                with us, and that’s the whole reasons they come to the Northwest Territories.
                That’s the way we’d like to—the direction we’d like to see our operation going,
                and that’s the direction we’re shifting our marketing towards. Now because we
                are a new company this may take a few years. We understand that.

Interviewer:    Okay. Just one second. Okay. Are you going to change your product or service
                offering for the next couple of years to broaden your customer base? Do you plan
                on adding any new activities or getting into--?

Lauri
Evanitski:      Not necessarily new activities. We’d just like to expand the activities that we
                have, like I said, to go from running day camps and, you know, just overnight in
                the bush one night, we’d like to expand to week-long adventures that include all
                of what the North has to offer, which includes snowmobiling and—we already



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        138
                include all of these things, but we’d like to actually start getting more response
                and doing many more of longer tours.

Interviewer:    Okay. Are there any marketing strategies that you can think of that are used by
                competitive destinations? And by competitive destinations I mean anybody that’s
                competing for the same clientele anywhere in North America, let’s say. Are there
                any marketing strategies that any of your competitors are using that you feel are
                superior?

Lauri
Evanitski:      Well, we do find like just locally, you know, that our major—our most—our
                biggest competition locally, especially for the dogsledding, has travel agencies in
                Japan. I mean, a number of travel agencies in Japan are booking tours, bringing
                the tourists over here and, of course, we don’t have anywhere near the resources
                to host anything like that.

                As for other operations that are more similar to our own but not locally, there are
                a number of them in the Yukon that offers exactly the same thing that we do. It’s
                just a matter of getting established, establishing a reputation, having a really good
                website and advertising where people are going to be listening. We know
                someone in Whitehorse who is German and speaks German. He goes to Germany
                once a year and makes his contacts, and he’s booked solid with German tourists
                all year. Even in the summer, he’s booked with German tourists. So, I mean,
                basically, it just comes down to connections and reputation and putting in your
                time and still have the reputation for being a quality wilderness experience and
                then making the connections to let everybody know. Does that answer the
                question?

Interviewer:    Okay. Yes, it definitely does, yes.

Lauri
Evanitski:      Okay.

Interviewer:    Yes, that was—that made total sense. Thank you.

                In your opinion, what competitive sport-fishing destination does an effective job
                at attracting sports fishermen from a marketing perspective? So, is there a
                company out there that offers a fishing package that—and that you admire in
                terms of their professionalism regarding marketing?

Lauri
Evanitski:      Well, pretty much the one that I’m familiar with the most is Plummer’s, and I
                think the best thing I’ve ever seen is that they’re constantly having their fishing,
                you know, the fishing shows invited up to their lodges and catching these monster
                fish, you know, one right after the other. I don’t think you could have any better
                advertising than having these guys catching fish after fish on National and



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        139
                International television. We tried that. I mean, we invited them up to go ice
                fishing by dog sled but, unfortunately, we can’t afford to pay all their costs, you
                know, like those other guys do. So, that hasn’t happened for us yet. But definitely,
                the guys up on Great Bear Lake are catching the trophy trout and, you know, they
                constant jackfish and all that stuff—I definitely admire that.

Interviewer:    Okay. Now, regarding your clientele, have they changed or are they changing
                demographically as far as age, ethnic background, origin, their gender? Are you
                noticing that people are not coming on business trips and moreso on family trips
                or with friends?

Lauri
Evanitski:      Well, we’ve found, because we’re such a small and new operation—at first it was
                a lot of local and, you know, with people with family coming up. Over the past
                year or two, we have been finding more business people in Yellowknife already
                on business. They want to kind of go out for, you know, just the dog sled ride, just
                to say that they’ve done it. And that’s been the primary portion of our business up
                until now.

                As we progress, we’re trying to actually get away from just doing little rides for
                people that are already here. As I mentioned, we’d like to do the longer tours. So,
                of course, our clientele is, hopefully, going to change. But I guess you asked if it
                has changed, so I’d have to say that, yes, it started out as family and friends, and
                now it’s a combination of family and friends and people in Yellowknife on
                business. I’d say it was a fairly equal share.

Interviewer:    Okay. I’m just going to—

Lauri
Evanitski:      And occasionally, we have had a couple of people, this past year I should
                mention, that did actually come to Yellowknife just for our services. So, we are
                finding that, but most of those have been—we’ve had one group from Japan and
                one group recently from China that came and stayed just for that. We’re kind of
                hoping that that trend continues.

Interviewer:    That’s awesome. You got to love that.

Lauri
Evanitski:      Oh, yes.

Interviewer:    Okay, next question. How many people, Laurie, do you employ each season?

Lauri
Evanitski:      Technically, none.

Interviewer:    So, yourself and your husband?



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        140
Lauri
Evanitski:      Myself, and my husband helps out here and there, but he’s not an official
                employee now that I can’t employ him without him being at arms length.

Interviewer:    You’re his boss, though, aren’t you? Okay. All right.

Lauri
Evanitski:      So, as the boss, I do everything.

Interviewer:    Okay. Next question. I’m just going to ignore.

Lauri
Evanitski:      I do contract things out as well. I do have other mushers that, well, once in a while
                I’ll contract out business to. I can’t call them employees.

Interviewer:    So, let’s call that part-time—how many? One? Two? Three? Four? Hello.

Lauri
Evanitski:      Okay. Two. I’m sorry. I was just discussing with my husband. I’d say two.

Interviewer:    Okay. Two. Okay. All right. So, that would be three—

Lauri
Evanitski:      So, we’re hoping to expand that and if we can find mushers that are willing to,
                because like I said, we’d like to get away from doing the rides, but we know local
                mushers in town that have their dogs and, you know, a nice recreational team that
                would like to give rides, then, we’re more than happy to set them up with some of
                our clients.

Interviewer:    It’s pretty hard to answer the cell phone and book a client from China while
                you’re doing 30 clicks an hour with a client on a sled, eh?

Lauri
Evanitski:      [It’s what I have to do.] That’s true, but I’ve done it.

Interviewer:    Good on you. Okay, we’ve got two—

Lauri
Evanitski:      Most of our longer overnight bookings are approached through e-mail. Then, the
                phone conversation will come later on to finalize arrangements, but e-mail is
                actually our primary form of communication for our International and Southern
                clients.

Interviewer:    Okay. What challenges—no, this one is definitely not appropriate. Here is the
                final question. I’m just going to have to reword it a little bit. What do you feel,



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                             141
                Laurie, are the key ingredients to running a successful outdoor adventure
                operation that provides sport fishing services?
Lauri
Evanitski:      Well, I think the most important thing is that your client has to have a good time. I
                mean, you need to find out what it is that they want and how to give it to them.
                That’s got to be the most important thing because if you have happy clients, then
                your business will continue to expand. Otherwise, it’s just all factors that lead to
                happy clients, you know, like a clean camp that’s catching lots of fish and that
                sort of thing, for a fishing operation. In our case, it comes to clean, neat organized
                camps that, you know, running their own team and having things run smoothly
                and not freezing to death and things like that.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                         142
Interview with Mr. Wayne Witherspoom, Frontier Fishing Lodge



Interviewer:    Okay, I’m here with Wayne Witherspoom of Frontier Fishing Lodge. Wayne,
                what do you think—actually, I’ll tell you what the first question is. It is what do
                you think are the reasons behind the decline in the number of guests to your
                lodge over the past five years? But I noticed that according to your survey
                responses, your business has increased since 2002. It decreased the year before
                and remained unchanged in the 2000 season. So, maybe I’ll just rephrase the
                question. What do you think the reasons are behind the increase over the past
                three years in the number of guests to your lodge?

Wayne
Witherspoom: Well, that’s a good question. I wish I knew a definitive answer. You know, we
             haven’t been doing anything different other than giving people good service and
             keeping our prices in line. I don’t know what the difference is but, on that note,
             just because I can add something in, for this year, this season coming up, our
             business is down. So, maybe we just had a little blip in our business for a few
             years and now we’re starting down a little bit. It’s kind of scary. I don’t know.
             I’m talking to other outfitters and some of them are telling me their businesses are
             struggling as well. And maybe it’s the baby boomers getting older and want to do
             different things. I just—I don’t have an answer.

Interviewer:    Okay. How do you think the industry’s participants can work together to turn
                things around and slow or reverse a decline in business? And this is—I’ll just give
                you a bit of a summary of the results so far. There appears to be a decline in
                business. What do you think the industry’s participants can do to turn that around
                by working together?

Wayne
Witherspoom: The industry working together. That would be a novel idea first of all. Fishing
             lodges are notorious for not wanting to cooperate with each other because it’s
             such a competitive business. But I think we really, you know, in the north, we
             really have to show people or get the message out as to what we’ve got there
             because I really don’t think a lot of people know about it. When we go to the
             shows in the United States, those people in the United States have their eyes on
             Alaska. Now, Alaska’s got good fishing and wonderful scenery, but so do the
             Northwest Territories, and I don’t know why we can’t seem to get the message
             across to them that there’s a lot less people travelling to where we are—there’s no
             crowds. But they don’t seem to be swaying. They continue to look to Alaska and
             go there, so--. Somehow, we need to get the message out to these people that
             they’re missing out on something that’s really good.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        143
Interviewer:    Okay. What are your thoughts on a group purchasing organization for NWT
                fishing lodges? For example, for something like group liability insurance?

Wayne
Witherspoom: I suppose it would be something that would be useful and save us a few dollars,
             but it’s not an answer to our problem. We have to address the problem of
             declining numbers. You can only trim your costs so far before you can’t trim
             them any more. So, I think we have to improve our revenue rather than focus on
             just trying to get group purchasing power because I don’t think that’s going to
             solve it.

Interviewer:    Okay. What type—here’s a good question then for you, these next few questions.
                What type of outside support, for example, from the government, would you feel
                would assist the industry in reversing or slowing the decline in business?
                Anything in particular you can think of?

Wayne
Witherspoom: Well, if we’ve got a good tourism group going there now and the government
             would give them the money to go out and really promote the Northwest
             Territories throughout the United States, especially the East—throughout the
             United States, not just any one area—I think you’d generate the interest. But, you
             know, they’ve kind of been negative on us since the Iraq war has started and
             Canada didn’t step up and support them, you know, when they stepped in there.
             So they’ve been a little bit negative towards us. So, I kind of think that we need to
             try and shake their hands again and get them coming. And it has to be done
             through a tourism association or a government association. The private operators
             don’t have the money to do it.

Interviewer:    Okay. What, in your opinion, can be done to help ease the high cost of doing
                business as a fishing lodge in the Northwest Territories? Is there anything that can
                be done, that the government can do, for example, or the industry together can do
                to reduce costs?

Wayne
Witherspoom: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s a good question. Well, our biggest costs are our
             charter costs and our airlines and our fuel. So, unless somebody has got our own
             reserve of oil, we’re not going to fix the fuel problem, and that’s part of the cost
             involved with the charter and the airlines. I don’t think, personally, that the cost of
             the trips to the Northwest Territories is the problem because the West Coast
             resorts, the ones that are fishing up in the Queen Charlotte Islands and whatnot,
             charge a fair amount of money, quite a bit more than what anybody in the North
             charges, and they seem to be doing pretty good.

                And I think it’s a marketing thing. I think it’s they’ve been branded and identified
                as having superior product and great accommodations and wonderful scenery. I
                think we need to get that message out of what we’ve got.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       144
Interviewer:    Okay. Sorry, I’m just taking notes here. What kind of support, if any, have your
                suppliers offered you in the past? Have any of the airlines offered you co-
                marketing opportunities? That’s just an example, hypothetical.

Wayne
Witherspoom: No, not really. There’s been some minor things done with a couple of small
             charter operators, but nothing of any significance. Years ago, maybe 10 or 15
             years ago, we did something with Air Canada when they used to fly into
             Yellowknife, which I know they’re starting to do again, but really there’s been
             nothing done that’s of any significance.

Interviewer:    What did you do with Air Canada?

Wayne
Witherspoom: Well, they had a vacation, a holiday brochure that was called—I think it was
             called Air Canada Holidays or something like that, and we actually had an ad in
             there with them. Not an ad, but, you know, our quarter page sort of thing showing
             our resort and offering the package trip, you know, with the airfare along with Air
             Canada. So, they were marketing it for us, and we were buying into their program.
             Air Canada Holidays or something like that it was called. But I mean, it was quite
             a long time ago, early ‘90s. And it had moderate success; it wasn’t a big success,
             but it did get some people.

Interviewer:    Okay. What kind of assistance for marketing, Wayne, would you like to see from
                NWT Tourism?

Wayne
Witherspoom: Assistance in marketing—well, that’s a good question, too. I really think that the
             tourism needs to go out and market the Territories as a whole. I really think they
             can’t—we can’t get the message out as individual operators. I think they need to
             do it as a combined effort, showing what’s up there, not just the fishing lodges but
             the fishing and the hunting and the ecotourism. It all has to go out together ‘cause
             otherwise, you’re just chopping up the dollars that are being spent and targeting
             certain little areas, and I don’t think it gets the message out to enough people.

Interviewer:    Okay. Have you had to shift your marketing or advertising plan in the past few
                years to address the change in the market? Does it sound--?

Wayne
Witherspoom: Yes.

Interviewer:    Oh, you have. Okay.

Wayne
Witherspoom: Yes. We have gone away from the sports shows and are approaching or heading
             more towards the Internet marketing. It just seems to us at the shows that you’re



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      145
                not getting the—anywhere near the amount of interest that you used to get. And
                I’m talking 15 or 20 years ago, when you went to a show and there were lots of
                people that were interested in going. Now, it just seems to be more of a passing
                interest. They’re not there to buy your trips. They’re just there to gather
                information. But thinking like a consumer, why would they? They can sit at home
                in front of the computer and find out everything they need to find out about any
                area in the world. They don’t have to go to a show any more. So, we need to
                market ourselves aggressively via the Internet. How that’s done, I don’t know.
                I’m not a marketing major. I wish I was.

Interviewer:    Okay. Compared to how you’re marketing today, then, how do you see this
                changing in the future? I know you were just talking about more information, less
                trade shows.

Wayne
Witherspoom: Yeah. We’re not going to hardly any shows any more, and we’re actively
             pursuing the Internet and trying to optimize our sites on the Internet and trying to
             get our bookings through that route. Just because that the sports shows just don’t
             seem to do it any more.

Interviewer:    Okay. Are you going to be changing your product offering or your service
                offering over the next couple of years? I notice that 80 to 100 percent of your
                clients are there to fish. Are you planning on trying to get into another product or
                service?

Wayne
Witherspoom: Well—

Interviewer:    Hello. [disconnected] [end of Part 1]

                Okay, we’re back. Part 2 with Frontier Fishing Lodge.

                So, the last question, Wayne, was—are you going to change your product or
                service offerings in the next couple of years?

Wayne
Witherspoom: Not likely. We might add a few things. We might add a little bit of outpost camps
             or maybe some rock climbing, but our basic and our foundation is our fishing
             lodge, and I don’t see it changing.

Interviewer:    Okay. What marketing strategies come to mind from competitive destinations that
                you feel are superior in attracting the sport fishing market?

Wayne
Witherspoom: Hmm. I really don’t pay attention to what the competition is doing. And we’re
             probably talking about other areas, other geographical areas, eh?



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        146
Interviewer:    Not necessarily.

Wayne
Witherspoom: Not necessarily. Because we’ve expanded our own marketing into the Internet,
             we’re just starting to do that. That’s the only area that I can see where we haven’t
             tried. We’ve tried print advertising in articles and television shows and sport
             shows and direct marketing, and none of it seems to make that big a difference.
             Although, I mean, we’ve had reasonable success, but I can’t say we’ve been
             turning thousands of people away.

Interviewer:    Okay. Well, my next question is what competitive sport fishing destinations do
                you really admire as good marketers? What do you feel do a really effective job at
                attracting sport fishermen from a marketing perspective?

Wayne
Witherspoom: Well, I think that Alaska does a good job.

Interviewer:    Any lodges in particular?

Wayne
Witherspoom: No. There’s just so many up there, but the reputation that goes with Alaska, and I
             guess it’s maybe part of the American psyche, but the American people just—
             they just fall in love with the idea of Alaska.

Interviewer:    Yeah. So, do Germans.

Wayne
Witherspoom: I guess so. I guess so, but somehow we need to get the message across that there’s
             a lot of open spaces in the Territories and a lot to see. They just need to come and
             try it.

Interviewer:    Okay. How have your clientele changed demographically, if they’ve changed at
                all? Can you tell me how they’ve changed? And also tell me a little bit about your
                clientele right now in terms of their age, ethnic background, origin, gender? Is it
                business groups, corporate groups, or mostly family and friends now?

Wayne
Witherspoom: It’s a combination of everything.

Interviewer:    Okay. Have you noticed a change? Are they getting older, younger?

Wayne
Witherspoom: You know, I can’t say I’ve noticed a change but I’ve noticed that some of the
             guests that were guests of the lodge when we bought it like 15 years ago are now
             getting up to the age where they’re starting to die off. So, when we bought it,
             maybe they were in their late ‘50s and early ‘60s and now they’re up to their ‘70s



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      147
                and 80s, and they’re starting to die off. Now, our new clients that are becoming
                regulars are probably in that 40 to 55, 60-year-old group. So, it seems to me that
                that’s where we need to find them. That’s where they seem to get the disposable
                income and the time to be able to do this sort of trip. And they’re bringing their
                kids with them, either their sons and/or their grandsons, and sometimes wives.
                We’re seeing more females coming than—20 years ago, I don’t think it was very
                common to see very many ladies, but there are quite a few coming now. And
                that’s good to see because they do enjoy going out there and doing that fishing
                thing. It’s not just for the guys any more.

Interviewer:    Okay. Have you ever owned or operated your own aircraft to service your lodge?

Wayne
Witherspoom: No.

Interviewer:    Have the regulations, changes over the years, especially since 911, affecting
                aircraft and aircraft transport, have those new laws or restrictions affected service
                to your lodge in any way that you can think of?

Wayne
Witherspoom: Other than increasing costs, no. And, you know, they really just caused us to
             spend more on our charters. We wanted to have our own aircraft, but we’ve never
             been able to establish enough capital to go out and buy one. We don’t want to
             lease one. If we’re going to have it, we’re going to own it.

Interviewer:    Okay. How many people do you employ each season, Wayne?

Wayne
Witherspoom: Between guides and staff, probably around 15, 15-18, depending on the year.

Interviewer:    Okay. Can you tell me—can you describe your typical employee to me, for
                example, are they from the NWT? Not from the NWT? Are they 18-22 year-old
                summer students? Or--?

Wayne
Witherspoom: No. It’s—again, it’s a combination. My chef’s been cooking up there for us for 35
             years.

Interviewer:    Wow!

Wayne
Witherspoom: You know, I mean, he’s been there. He’s 58 years old now, but he’s a lifer. He’s
             never going to quit. My baker, although I have a new one this year, is from
             Southern Alberta, and probably she’s been up there about six years, and she’s
             retiring ‘cause she’s 67.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                         148
Interviewer:    Wow!

Wayne
Witherspoom: But I have a new baker that I think will probably do the same thing and come
             back for a bunch of years. So, I would say probably half our staff are returnees
             and about half are, you know, people that are new to us. Some of them are young.
             Some of them are from the South. Some of them are from the North in Lutselk’E.

Interviewer:    Some of your guides are Native, local Natives?

Wayne
Witherspoom: Yeah, some of them are, yeah, and some of them come from Southern Canada.

Interviewer:    Whereabouts in Southern Canada? Just curious.

Wayne
Witherspoom: All over—Ontario, Alberta, Saskatchewan.

Interviewer:    Okay.

Wayne
Witherspoom: It’s a little harder these days to get some of the local boys to work as guides
             because they’re getting diamond mine jobs, and I can’t compete with the diamond
             mine. Our employment is only for a few months, so why would you give up a job
             like that to work at a fishing lodge? You wouldn’t.

Interviewer:    Unless you’re on strike.

Wayne
Witherspoom: Well, that’s another issue.

Interviewer:    Yeah. That’s for sure. What challenges do you in Lutselk’E—that sort of answers
                my next question, which is what challenges do you encounter in the area of
                employee hiring or in employee retention? Retention doesn’t seem to be a
                problem. I haven’t heard—I think you’ve got the record for the longest, most
                loyal employee.

Wayne
Witherspoom: Yeah, I probably do, and I have several that have been there, you know, close to
             20 years, so, there’s no doubt that—I don’t know what it is. Maybe it’s we treat
             them well, but I guess when you treat people with respect, they want to stay.

Interviewer:    Okay. My last question is what do you feel are the key ingredients to running a
                successful sport fishing operation?

Wayne



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                     149
Witherspoom: Key ingredients. Personnel, number one. You have to have good people, and you
             need to be in a good location. So, I mean, the Territories generally is an excellent
             location, so that’s not an issue. So, your personnel have to be very good, and you
             have to provide great service.

Interviewer:    Okay.

Wayne
Witherspoom: You know, if your guides are not doing their job, your guests are not coming
             back.

Interviewer:    I agree.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                     150
Interview with Mr. Shawn Buckley, Great Slave Tours

Interviewer:    Okay. I am talking with Shawn Buckley of Great Slave Tours. Shawn, what do
                you think are the reasons behind a decline in the number of guests to sport fishing
                lodges and outfitting services in the Northwest Territories over the past five
                years? I notice—

Shawn
Buckley:        [inaudible], right?

Interviewer:    Sorry. I noticed according to your responses that your business increased last
                year. Now, you’ve only been in business, or you’ve been in business as Great
                Salve Tours for three years, so it’s a difficult question to ask you about the past
                five years. But do you have any thoughts on why there would be a decline in the
                number of people visiting fishing outfits here in the Northwest Territories?

Shawn
Buckley:        First off, what comes to mind would probably be the fuel, the price of fuel.
                Second would probably be advertising. Like, I know if I was to go somewhere
                and like, it’s just a general person’s perspective, like, if you’re looking to go
                somewhere—there’s only so many people who are looking to go somewhere, and
                when they’ve worn that out then the next, it’s the next person’s time to step up,
                you know, to go on these trips. So, I think we just kind of run out of people. We
                have to advertise to maybe different age groups.

Interviewer:    Okay. How do you think the industry’s participants, so how do you think all the
                lodges and fishing outfitters in the Northwest Territories can work together to
                turn things around and slow or reverse a decline in business?

Shawn
Buckley:        Geez, I don’t know. I can’t really say right off—maybe working together for sure
                would help ‘cause if—like, I do general fishing, everything to do with fishing,
                commercial, sport, scientific. I have all that knowledge, and if there’s one guy
                that’s just doing the sport fishing and he doesn’t know much about the
                commercial and there’s somebody interested, then they could refer them to me.

Interviewer:    Okay. What are your thoughts on a group purchasing organization for fishing
                lodges and outfitters in the NWT for things such as commercial liability
                insurance? Would you be interested in participating if you could buy your
                insurance at a discount as a member of a group?

Shawn
Buckley:        Oh, for sure, I would.

Interviewer:    Okay.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       151
Shawn
Buckley:        Yeah, absolutely.

Interviewer:    What type of outside support do you feel would assist the industry in reversing or
                slowing the decline in business recently? What would you like to see in terms of
                assistance from the government, or NWT Tourism?

Shawn
Buckley:        I don’t know. That’s a big question because it’ll pertain—there’ll be different
                questions for different type of outfitters, tour operators. I can’t really answer that.

Interviewer:    No problem. Shawn, what in your opinion, if anything, can be done to help ease
                the high cost of doing business as a fishing outfitter in the Northwest Territories?
                Is there anything that comes to mind that you think the government could do or
                that the industry could do to help reduce costs?

Shawn
Buckley:        This kind of goes in relationship with a couple of questions that I couldn’t
                answer. If we merged—like, if the outfitters merged and had a program that was
                together, then it would probably alleviate the cost for the flights. Like, we’d have
                more flights in if the business owners merged and put packages together
                themselves.

Interviewer:    So, somewhat like a group purchasing, or a coop?

Shawn
Buckley:        Group purchasing. Yeah, I guess like a coop type business, yeah.

Interviewer:    Okay. I’m just going to skip a question because it doesn’t really apply to you.
                What kind of assistance, Shawn, would you like to see for marketing for your
                company from NWT Tourism? Is there anything that you can think of as far as
                your marketing goes that you’d like to see some assistance?

Shawn
Buckley:        I’d like to see, oh, I don’t know, me being a [strange thing] myself, I find it hard
                to do the advertising and the general knowledge and the computer skills. If I had
                somebody that was close by that could work directly           with me and put a
                package together, that would help me tremendously.

Interviewer:    So, some sort of marketing training?

Shawn
Buckley:        Marketing training. Exactly.

Interviewer:    Okay.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                          152
Shawn
Buckley:        That would save me so much time because it’s taken me years to just advertise
                even locally.

Interviewer:    Okay. I’m just going to skip that one, this one. Okay. Here’s the next question.
                What types of new marketing initiatives would you like to see from a regional
                perspective? What I’m asking is you’re aware of how the Northwest Territories is
                marketed as a region now. They have the bear as a logo. Do you have any
                thoughts on how they could improve the way that the Northwest Territories is
                marketed as a region? It’s kind of a--

Shawn
Buckley:        Yeah, we’ve got a lot of lakes where—we’ve got a lot of lake area here, like the
                Great Slave Lake even and a lot of the inland, of course, around Yellowknife.
                Maybe they should advertise the fishing more rather than the ecotourism. Catch
                and release fishing, I don’t know. It’s just a pristine country we have here.

Interviewer:    I’m just actually taking notes as we go as well as recording.

Shawn
Buckley:        Yes.

Interviewer:    Okay. Compared to how you market your operation today, do you see this
                changing in the future?

Shawn
Buckley:        Sorry, say again?

Interviewer:    Okay. Compared to how you market your fishing operation today, do you see this
                changing in the future? Do you have any plans to--?

Shawn
Buckley:        Well, I’m learning as I go, so, yes, for sure I plan on changing my advertising in
                the future. For sure I do.

Interviewer:    Anything in particular that you really want to focus on—websites, or--?

Shawn
Buckley:        I’ll always be—yeah, I got a website. I need to advertise and put links on my—
                learn how to put links. Advertise for the sports fishing probably because I got so
                much to do with fishing.

Interviewer:    Okay.

Shawn
Buckley:        And maybe more detail about the fishing and my knowledge.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      153
Interviewer:    Okay. Are you going to change your product offerings in the next couple of
                years? So, considering what you offer now, do you plan on adding anything to
                your product offerings?

Shawn
Buckley:        I plan on expanding. I plan on changing my business. I’d like to have either a 10-
                camp or a lodge area on the east arm for winter and summer, Northern Lights,
                sport fishing.

Interviewer:    Okay. Are there any marketing strategies from competitors of yours that you feel
                are superior in attracting sports fishermen? So, is there anything that other
                companies do marketing wise that you think is really awesome?

Shawn
Buckley:        I think it’s just the effort. Effort is the biggest thing. If you’re there year after
                year and you’re advertising as a great, like a big fish lodge, like a large trout
                fishery lodge continuously, then that’s a marketing strategy right there. Me being
                a small business owner, I can’t afford to do this and go all over the place because
                I’m handling everything here myself.

Interviewer:    I hear you.

Shawn
Buckley:        So, I think it’s the effort. We need to have a cost help in advertising.

Interviewer:    Okay. I’ll add that to the other question, okay.

Shawn
Buckley:        Yes.

Interviewer:    So, advertising, assistance with cost. In your opinion, Shawn, what competitive
                sport fishing destinations do an effective job at attracting sports fishermen from a
                marketing perspective? So, what lodges and outfitters out there do you admire,
                do you think really are on the ball as far as their marketing goes?

Shawn
Buckley:        I haven’t really looked at a lot of marketing, lodges for their marketing.

Interviewer:    Okay.

Shawn
Buckley:        I can’t really say. I don’t know.

Interviewer:    Okay. So, you can’t think of a lodge that’s—actually, that’s fine.

Shawn



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        154
Buckley:        Caters to people?

Interviewer:    Well, that you think, that you feel does a really good job at marketing to sport
                fishermen? Is there a company that comes to mind that you think is superior in
                terms of their marketing?

Shawn
Buckley:        I know the—I work at a lodge as well, too, in the summer. I help Sandy Point
                Lodge out of Yellowknife. I’ve seen a few lodges. Been out at Great Bear.
                Scientifically, I’m working with Fisheries and Oceans, and I have been out in
                East Arm and I’ve seen a couple of their lodges. I find that Sandy Point Lodge is
                run very well.

Interviewer:    Okay. Great. Okay.

Shawn
Buckley:        But you’re asking me on a marketing perspective, right?

Interviewer:    Yeah. So, I mean, when you’re surfing the Net, or maybe you don’t even check
                out the competition, so this question may not be appropriate.

Shawn
Buckley:        Yeah, I don’t see—the only thing I—yeah, I do actually look once in a while
                when I see it pop up. I don’t make myself go onto the line and look at other
                lodges for comparisons. No, I don’t. But what I see is, I don’t know. I can’t
                answer that, really.

Interviewer:    No problem. How are your—can you tell me a little bit about your clients, how
                old they are, are they from the same region in general, are they--?

Shawn
Buckley:        Just about all my clients are from local.

Interviewer:    Oh, they are. Okay.

Shawn
Buckley:        Just because I haven’t done any marketing outside of the Northwest Territories
                because I can’t afford it.

Interviewer:    Okay. How old are they on average?

Shawn
Buckley:        The age? Average age group is about—well, you see, it’s hard to say because
                they’re family groups. Like, they’re people that I know in town or people that
                know about me, and when they have relatives or parents coming in from out of
                town, they bring them along for the trip to advertise the North, basically, which is



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       155
                good advertising. But I think the age group is around—see, you get that, what, 30
                to 35 year age group that know me in town, and then they’re—the people they
                bring in there are usually the parents which are about 50 to 60. So, there’s a gap
                in there, right, from what I can see.

Interviewer:    Sure. No, I understand. Okay. Have you ever owned or operated your own
                aircraft?

Shawn
Buckley:        No.

Interviewer:    Okay. Do you employ anybody other than yourself?

Shawn
Buckley:        Just part time. If I have big groups, I hire to run the Bombardiers [ph].

Interviewer:    Okay.

Shawn
Buckley:        Yeah, and help with the nets.

Interviewer:    How many part-time people would you--?

Shawn
Buckley:        Probably about four.

Interviewer:    Four?

Shawn
Buckley:        Very periodic, yeah. Probably cook, drivers and a helper.

Interviewer:    So, four part-time?

Shawn
Buckley:        Yeah.

Interviewer:    What’s the average length of a trip?

Shawn
Buckley:        My average length is four hours, day trips.

Interviewer:    Okay.

Shawn




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                     156
Buckley:        Because they’re the school system, I do take a lot of kids out for schools, and
                four hours is perfect to take them out of town and bring them back and do a fish
                fry.

Interviewer:    Great. Okay. Yeah, you wouldn’t want them for too much longer.

Shawn
Buckley:        No, not for the little kids.

Interviewer:    No. Okay. And your—tell me a little bit about your typical part-time employee.
                Are they local? Are they young?

Shawn
Buckley:        They’re local and they’re probably family ‘cause all my family is into
                commercial fishing. So, they’re the ones that have the experience with the
                Bombardiers or the nets, and with the fish.

Interviewer:    Sure. Okay. I’m just going to skip that one. Okay, last question. Shawn, what do
                you feel are the key ingredients to running a successful sport fishing operation?
                Now, I know that you’ve been in business for three years, and you’re learning as
                you go, but--

Shawn
Buckley:        What keeps me going?

Interviewer:    Well, what do you think are the key ingredients to being successful in the sport
                fishing outfitting business?

Shawn
Buckley:        I don’t—there’s lots. I think keeping in mind you’re advertising the North. Like,
                people are—most people are from the city, so when they come here you want to
                show them another lifestyle, and that is very important to me. They want the
                experience. You have to show them the experience, the way it is, not staged, just
                the way it is. And I’m finding that’s what keeps me—I’ve had so much people
                comment on my trips about how I’m so natural at what I do. My general
                knowledge about commercial fishing is actually a good thing. It’s not staged, and
                I’m not setting it up. It’s just the way I am, the way I talk, the way I do
                everything on the lake. So, showing these tourists my lifestyle, like the
                commercial fishery and the North—everything about the North lifestyle.

Interviewer:    So, experience is key.

Shawn
Buckley:        Experience is key, yes. They want to see things for what it is.

Interviewer:    And knowledgeable guides that are really good with people, with their clients.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      157
Shawn
Buckley:        Yes. Well, not necessarily even good. Like that’s kind of important. What I’m
                finding is just natural, like people that are in their natural habits.

Interviewer:    Okay.

Ends here




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                   158
Interview with Mr. Robert Hill, Kasba Lake Lodge

Q:              Okay, I am with Robert Hill of Kasba Lake Lodge. Rob, I’m just taking a look at
                one of your responses to the online survey and I notice that in 2005 and in ’04,
                your business revenue increased. It decreased in ’03 and ’01 and increased in
                2000. Any thoughts on the reasons behind the decline in ’02 and ’03 and then an
                increase in the recent couple of years?

A:              Well, I mean, the—we’ve been working harder at marketing more effectively in
                the last couple of years and, fortunately, it’s been showing off a little bit or
                showing up a little bit so that, you know, that is, a major difference is that, yeah,
                we are putting more effort into effectively marketing.

Q:              Any trends in the marketplace in the past five years that really stand out?

A:              Well, for us, it’s—a couple things that I’m finding is that people are generally
                looking, at least our clientele are looking for more of a resort experience, fishing,
                even though we’re, you know, strictly a fishing lodge, people like—are just as in
                life in generally, are liking more luxury, nicer accommodation, you know,
                superior. We now hire chefs, you know, and pastry chefs and that sort of stuff for
                our customers. They like to be pampered and, you know, service is important to
                them.

Q:              Okay. How do you think the industry’s participants, so the lodge owners and
                guiding outfits themselves, can work together, if they can at all, to improve the
                business environment for the—for the lodge industry here in the Northwest
                Territories? Is that possible? Is there anything you think that could be done?

A:              Well, I definitely think that and we have always actually thought that, you know,
                you were better off to mark it as a destination as a group rather than trying to just
                trade customers over the years, which, you know, is more likely the case in that,
                you know, certainly us and our competitors. Most people that have been to our
                place have been to our competitors and vice versa. So, you know, the—and the
                new markets are always—or the new customers new to the Northwest Territories
                are always, in my opinion, the hardest ones to get. So those ones I always felt that
                we could—we could’ve used some sort of joint marketing effort to attract that and
                I think, you know, certainly, because it’s difficult for private operators to get
                together, that NWT Tourism is really the means to do that. And, you know, the—
                yeah, I guess the--I’ve got—I don’t believe that NWT Tourism has really gone in
                the right direction in the past and I’m not sure that they—I’ve seen any new ideas
                in the future that I think—or certainly not the direction we are going anyway.

Q:              Okay. What are your thoughts, Rob, on a group purchasing organization for
                NWT fishing lodges and outfitters for things such as liability insurance?




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                          159
A:              Well, if it—yeah, I’m for it if it costs less.

Q:              Okay. That’s simple enough. What type of outside support do you feel would
                assist the industry in improving—in improving the marketplace? The outside
                support I mean from government?

A:              You mean as far as--?

Q:              Programs. As far as support, training. Is there anything that you’ve seen done in
                other regions that you would like to see mirrored here? If you don’t have a--.

A:              I don’t really have a comment on that at the moment. Nothing pops into my head.

Q:              Okay. No problem. What, in your opinion, if anything, can be done to help ease
                the high cost of doing business as a fishing lodge in the Northwest Territories?
                Any programs?

A:              Well, transportation—transportation for us. Transportation is a major cost. So,
                you know, to ease that cost I don’t believe is in the power of the Northwest
                Territories government or NWT Tourism. You know, we’re running into—and,
                you know, is probably--it wouldn’t be seen as a broad case over the industry but,
                you know, generally, yet we’re finding--and I think—I think the north and south
                is finding that (a) there’s--it’s harder to transport your people because Transport
                Canada makes it more difficult. You can’t haul as many people anymore. You
                can’t haul as much freight anymore in aircraft. There’s more regulations related
                to aircraft. The aircraft that are bigger like we use on wheels are all forty, fifty
                years old now.

                There’s nothing, you know, again, nothing that anybody can do about it. But
                there’s nothing been brought on line in the last—since—well, really I mean we’re
                using Condors and that’s just about the last numerous type aircraft that there is to
                charter—you know, to charter in the north and to find an available aircraft in the
                north to charter is really difficult now. There’s less of them because they’re all
                old. And, you know, people are—if they’re running them out of Yellowknife, for
                them to come over they’re dead heading four hundred miles to come over to
                charter for me while it’s, you know, cost prohibitive to do that. But again, I mean
                I don’t know that, you know, really there’s—there’s no easy solution for it and
                certainly nothing that the NWT government can do that I can think of off the top
                of my head that would assist that. But it’s—over time, I believe it’s going to be a
                major concern is that all these older aircraft that we’re using in the north are going
                to become, you know, either unusable or obsolete and then where are we left?

Q:              Okay. What kind of support, if any, have your suppliers offered you in the past?
                Have you, for example, had been offered any co-marketing opportunities with a—
                with a local airline to gain sufficient--?




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                         160
A:              No, we’re not—I mean we’re so far from anybody in that regard that they—no,
                we’re not in that category.

Q:              Okay. What kind of assistance--?

A:              There’s nobody—there is nobody local where we are.

Q:              No, I understand. I was just—I was just wondering. Times are tough for quite a
                few of the lodges in many different regions. And I was wondering if—you know,
                so a lot of them are letting their suppliers know that.

A:              Right.

Q:              And I was wondering if any suppliers had—you know, has a--.

A:              Right, yeah, I know what you’re saying.

Q:              Yeah, had met you halfway on anything or been offered better financing
                arrangements or co-marketing opportunities to offset these—the pinch, the
                additional pinch that a lot of lodges are feeling.

                My next question is what kind of assistance from marketing would you like to see
                from NWT Tourism?

A:              Well, I think again this is some areas that we’ve actually been investigating quite
                extensively lately and that I think the Internet is the area that NWT Tourism
                should be—should be putting their focus into and that, you know, there’s a half a
                billion say, who knows, how many websites out there that claim they are travel
                websites that don’t list the Northwest Territories on them. Simple as that, right?
                Like somebody in the Northwest Territories government should be—or in NWT
                Tourism, should be focused on going to making sure every single website has an
                NWT that, you know, obviously shows Canada, has an NWT section in it because
                most—a majority of them don’t and that the information is up-to-date and current.
                And that’s an active, ongoing program that needs to—that, you know, it’s not
                something that you can do one year and then wait another year and do it, right?
                It’s something that has to be actively updated and ensured that it’s done fairly
                frequently to keep current information on the websites.

Q:              Okay. What types of new marketing initiatives would you like to see regarding
                promoting the NWT as a region? What would you like to see from a regional
                perspective? You did sort of touch on that.

A:              That’s my—I think that’s about the only—personally, realistically, as far as I’m
                concerned, the budgets and the cost of advertising that sort of stuff, yeah, the
                NWT Tourism has to focus their limited resources on areas that, you know, are
                going to make the biggest impact for the exposure of the NWT. And, to me,



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      161
                that’s one of the major, you know, areas that that can be accomplished, at
                relatively little cost compared to say going to Japan or something like that.

Q:              Okay. So you’d like them to—you’d like to see the NWT promoted as a region?

A:              Yes.

Q:              Okay. Have you had to shift your marketing advertising plans in the past few
                years to address any shift in the market?

A:              Not really, no. We’re just trying to be more focused on what we’re doing.

Q:              Okay. Compared to how you market your lodge today, how do you see this
                changing in the future?

A:              Well, again, I think, as I mentioned earlier, it’s more of a resort experience and an
                experience of the Northwest Territories, you know, rather than just strictly a
                fishing trip for a bunch of guys. And women are becoming a, you know, a major
                part of our—part of our—I wouldn’t say a major part but women are increasingly
                coming over the last five to ten years. But, you know, men just don’t go fishing
                by themselves anymore. They come with their wives.

Q:              Okay. Are you going to change your product or service offerings in the next
                couple of years to broaden your customer base?

A:              Probably not, no. Maybe again enhance the experience but I don’t see us
                changing it.

Q:              Okay. What marketing strategies from competitive destinations do you feel are
                superior in attracting the sport fishing market?

A:              Well, yeah, I really don’t have much comment on that because, to be honest, I
                don’t pay a lot of attention to other markets. Probably I should but I don’t.

Q:              Okay. Are there, in your opinion, what competitive sport fishing destinations do a
                really effective job at attracting sport fishermen from a marketing perspective?
                Do you pay enough of attention to the--?

A:              Well, I mean, there’s, you know, the West Coast, like Alaska, British Columbia.

Q:              Okay. Any specific lodge names?

A:              Well, I think like Langara Lodge does a pretty good job. I don’t have any specific
                Alaska lodges but I know we do have a lot of our customers go to Alaska and that,
                you know, that’s a sort of a major—it’s either, a lot of times it’s either Northwest
                Territories or Alaska. You know, really Alaska’s generally cheaper for them to



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        162
                get to because it’s a U.S. State and so—but there’s a bit of a cost disadvantage for
                coming out of anywhere in the States to going to the Northwest Territories, and
                which Alaska has an advantage there.

                And, again, salmon fishing in B.C., the idea of, you know, the king salmon kind
                of thing and that sort of thing. They’ve done a good job on marketing the size and
                the—that sort of thing as far as the salmon goes.

Q:              What are the major barriers that you face as a business in the next couple of years
                or over the past couple of years, the exchange rates?

A:              Oh, exchange rate’s a big one. Coming up is going to be border security. How
                are we going to get our—we already—we are already, and we have in the past,
                had difficulty getting our—not all of our customers but a surprisingly number of
                them coming into Canada don’t have proper ID to get into Canada. Now it’s
                going to be not only proper ID to get into Canada but it can be some other ID to
                get back into the States that—I mean that’s—nobody really, I don’t think,
                understands quite the effect that’s going to have on tourism in Canada because—
                you know, I don’t—I don’t think anybody really knows how that’s going to play
                out at this point. You know, the deadline is very, very close and the, you know,
                the exchange rate is that we’ve now, you know, become so expensive in Canada
                that other destinations are—you know, you may be able to go to South America
                fishing twice for what it costs to come to the NWT.

Q:              I’m just taking some notes.

A:              But, again, I mean things that are outside of, you know, anybody—any sort of in
                the Northwest Territories or NWT Tourism’s ability to [effect it then]. So I think
                we’re—you know, we have to market the NWT as a destination where people
                want to go not worry so much about, you know, what the exchange rate is and,
                you know, are people going to be able to get in and out of Canada? I mean that’s
                going to happen regardless of what we—whether we worry about it or not. Let’s
                make the NWT the place that they want to go regardless of how difficult it is to
                get back into the States.

Q:              Okay. Yup. Thank you. Okay. NWT as a region is so important. Okay. Now if
                I could just talk or if you could please tell me a little bit about your clientele. You
                mentioned women are becoming more prevalent as a—as a client base. How have
                your clientele changed demographically, if they’ve changed at all? Can you tell
                me a little bit about your clientele, their age, origin, gender? Are they coming up
                on business-friendly trips or is it family and friends mostly? And have you seen
                any other changes?

A:              Yeah. Our particular business is mostly a family and a friends type trips although
                we do have some corporate business. It’s not a large percentage of our total
                clientele, you know, maybe twenty-five percent corporate and the rest individual



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                          163
                travel. Again, you know, like you mentioned, the woman traveler with the—with
                her man/wife travel is becoming more prevalent, and, yeah, just that kind of thing.

Q:              Okay. In the past, did you ever own your own aircraft to service the lodge?

A:              We do own an aircraft at the lodge but it’s not to service the lodge.

Q:              Okay. So does it operate up here in the NWT?

A:              Yeah.

Q:              In relation to the lodge?

A:              Yeah, we use it for fly-outs and stuff at the camp.

Q:              Okay. So the answer is a big yes, I guess, when it comes to did the regulations—
                regulation changes from the Canadian Transport Authority restricting the number
                of guests you can carry and the amount of freight you can carry and security,
                safety restrictions that’s impacted your operation?

A:              Not a lot. I’d say the—just because—I mean it’s impacted it but it’s not—the
                major thing that is impacting us as far as Transport Canada goes is the cost of
                operating the aircraft has gone sky high just, you know, keeping it in the air,
                keeping the regulations—you know, the regulators happy with—because we have
                a charter license and that end of it for a single—you know, for a company that
                owns one airplane per charter license, it’s just not economically viable anymore.

Q:              Okay. To satisfy the new charter regulations. Charter operators’ regulations.
                And that’s since nine-eleven those new charter operators’ regulations?

A:              Well, yeah, but that’s just because nine-eleven was a while ago. I’m not sure it’s
                being related to that. It’s just related to bureaucracy and the amount that
                Transport Canada seems to be able to generate.

Q:              Okay. How many people do you employ each season?

A:              We got about thirty.

Q:              Thirty? Okay. And can you tell me quickly just a little bit about your typical
                employee? Are they from the Northwest Territories, not from the NWT? Are
                they summer students, eighteen to twenty-two years old or--?

A:              Yeah, we have a variety of students—or, yeah, some summer student-type things,
                you know. We’re not near any town or anything like that. So we don’t
                specifically hire out of a local community or anything like that because
                Yellowknife is the closest community and it’s four hundred miles away. We



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        164
                don’t preclude hiring people from the Northwest Territories. We hire whoever
                applies for a job and if we need them and they are qualified, we hire them.

Q:              Okay. What challenges do you encounter in the area of employee hiring or an
                employee retention?

A:              Well, we’re fairly lucky. We’ve got a pretty good retention rate. So it hasn’t
                been a real issue this year just because of a general increase in economic activity
                in Canada, it’s been a—been more of a challenge than normal but, again, I mean
                that’s just, you know, it’s easier for people to get summer jobs now. It’s easier
                than it has been in the past.

Q:              Okay. Last question, what do you feel are the key ingredients to running a
                successful sport fishing operation?

A:              Well, I think you have to give your clients more than what they expect. You
                know, you have to make sure that they—that they go home and they’re—and they
                go, you know, “That was a good experience going to the Northwest Territories,
                whether I come back to Calgary or go to another operation in the Northwest
                Territories, but, you know, I enjoyed them and I want to go back to the Northwest
                Territories period.” And I think that’s what—you know, that’s what you need to
                do and you need to have—you know, you need to have a good—a good staff.
                You need to have tight management controls and you need to have, you know, a
                quality operation and that, you know, just that so people are comfortable and you
                don’t even—you really don’t need spectacular fishing. You just need to give
                them more than what they expect.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        165
Interview with Mr. Mark Damaske, Lac La Martre Lodge

Interviewer:    Here we go. Okay. I’m with Mark Damaske of Lac La Martre Lodge. Mark, what
                do you think are the reasons behind the increases and decreases in your revenue
                over the past five years? I notice, according to your survey response, that it
                increased considerably in 2005. There was a decrease in ’04, an increase in ’03,
                and then decreases in both ’02 and—in ’01 and ’02. What are your thoughts on
                what’s been happening?

Mark
Damaske:        Well, certainly, 911, the terrorists flying the planes into the buildings in New
                York there. That played a role in the ’03, ’04 downturn. That was something that,
                for those of us who book our business a year or two out, that we didn’t really see
                the effects of for a year or two. And I’ve talked with my guests and that’s been a
                comment that’s been sort of prevalent. Again, most of the bookings for ’01; in
                fact, all of the bookings for ’01 and literally all of the bookings for ’02, were
                done, signed, sealed and delivered by that fall of ’01. So, we didn’t see an effect
                from that until, like I said, ’03 and ’04. The upturn in revenue in ’05 has to do
                with television exposure, almost exclusively.

                The other small marketing tool that’s played a role in that has been the fact that
                we now have been around long enough to be a little more recognizable. The—if
                you, as with any business, if you put enough people through the doors or after you
                sell enough product or after you’re sort of out there long enough, people approach
                you and say, “Gee, I heard about you.” Or, “Gee, someone told me about you.”
                Or, “I was fishing in South America with someone who fished with you last
                year.” And the word gets out.

                Lac La Matre Lodge, in terms of this being our tenth year in business, has now
                reached that point where we’re not the new kids on the block any more. We are
                not getting asked a lot of questions about, “Hey, who are you? Where are you?
                What are you all about?” We’re getting more and more of the fishermen who are
                our real target market, the high-end fishermen, saying, “Yes, I’ve heard about
                you. I’ve seen you on TV. I’ve seen you at the sport shows.”—whatever the case
                is.

                So, the upturn in ’05 is a result of that, and I will attribute most of that to the
                television exposure and the marketing we’ve done in that area. The downturn in
                ’03 and ’04 was really just, I think, a carry over from the ’01 catastrophe and a
                little bit of a downturn in the economy. Shortly after that, we had a number of
                groups cancel indicating they were pulling back on expenses and so on and so
                forth.

Interviewer:    Okay. And how is ’06 looking?




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        166
Mark
Damaske:        ’06 is going to be very close to the ’05 in terms of revenue and about the same
                number in terms of guests. I believe we did about 120 guests in ’05, and I believe
                right now we’re very close to if not at that number for ’06. Again, probably
                somewhere between 115 and 120 guests right now.

Interviewer:    Great. How do you think the industry’s participants can work together, if at all,
                Mark, to help improve any decline in business over the past five years?

Mark
Damaske:        I—this is not said with any pessimism. I don’t think that the fishing lodges, in
                terms of working together, makes a lot of sense. And I—again, not said with
                pessimism but said with the knowledge of 20-plus years in this business, each and
                every one of us believes that we have the best mousetrap going. And in some
                small ways, each and every one of us has our little differences, little nuances, little
                things that we believe are important and, in most cases, those differences bring
                guests back to our lodges and my competitors year after year.

                Trying to get a group of us to work together is something that I’ve seen tried over
                many, many different years and over a number of different avenues, and it never
                works. I’m probably simply saying the best thing to do, if we’re looking at the
                Northwest Territories garnering more fishermen and more tourism dollars, it is—
                it’s not going to happen because a bunch of fishing lodges got together and said,
                “Hey, let’s do this, that or the other.” I think that—I don’t think that that’s an
                avenue that will bear any fruit.

Interviewer:    Okay. What are your thoughts on a group purchasing organization for NWT
                fishing lodges and outfitters for something like liability insurance?

Mark
Damaske:        Personally, I think that’s a good idea. All of us have complained about and pretty
                much been hammered by the insurance carriers. I think that—I think that your
                discussions and/or your—and it seems that you’re certainly moving in that
                direction. If that’s the case, I’ve noticed, very frankly, that I was able to call my
                insurance carrier this year and very pleasantly, but tactfully, beat them up for
                some real cost savings. I’m paying this year in excess of $1000 less than I was
                quoted one or two years ago for the same coverage. And the reason I’m able to
                save that amount of money is that I called them up and there was a sense on their
                part that, well, gee, you know, everybody’s having hard times, or there might be
                some competitors out there, and hey, Mark, we can save you 5 percent because
                you’ve got no claims. We can save you 5 percent because you’ve been with us for
                “x” amount—all of a sudden, all of these discounts came to the forefront that I
                didn’t know about, again, when I sort of tactfully called them and beat them up.
                But I think a group purchase on liability insurance and/or insurance coverage for
                the lodges is a great idea.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                          167
Interviewer:    Okay. What type of outside support do you feel would assist the industry in
                improving the state of—for business, not—I’ll ask you questions about marketing
                and outside support for marketing in a minute or two, but any other types of
                outside support or subsidy thoughts from government?

Mark
Damaske:        Well, I’m not a big government subsidy guy, but I do know that most of us have a
                difficult time going to a standard banking institution and securing financing. One
                of the problems that I face, and it’s not necessarily unique to me, is that should I
                decide to turn a short-term cash flow deficit into long-term debt financing by
                going to a bank or financial institution, the problem I face is that because I’m an
                American, I look at my local bank, and they say, “Well, okay, and the assets are
                located where?” And I tell them they’re on an island 130 miles from the closest
                road, and they start to laugh, and we shake hands, and I go somewhere else.

                When I go to the Canadian banks, I bump into two problems. Number one, I’m
                generally not looking for enough money to have them take me seriously because
                they like to talk about numbers that are, you know, $500,000 and up. Or, “Gee,
                Mark, you’re a resident of the United States.” Even though my business and my
                business corporation are located and the assets are located in Canada, they shy
                away from it. In fact, I’ve never secured any financing as a non-resident.

                Those two things cause us to get very creative in raising money in other ways.
                Some of those ways are helpful and okay, and we can run with it. Some of them
                cause us, as an industry, to get in a little bit of trouble because we’re robbing from
                Peter to pay Paul, simply to raise cash to buy new motors or to raise cash to build
                a new building or whatever. The ability for us to obtain standard long-term
                financing is something that I think would be a big help, especially for those
                businesses that have been around a while and would be looking at, again,
                upgrading, buying new motors, buying new boats, etc. You know, I’ve heard all
                kinds of stories about all kinds of programs, and none of them have ever come to
                fruition, at least for me, and I’ve been around a long time.

Interviewer:    And, have there been any financing programs through the Department of Industry,
                Tourism and Investment here in the Northwest Territories that you’ve followed
                through with or that you’ve applied through? Are you familiar with any?

Mark
Damaske:        Nine or ten years ago, our first or second year, we applied for and got some
                marketing assistance, but in terms of any other, you know, capital investment or
                capital improvements, no. Nothing like that has ever come through and, in fact,
                we’ve never even gotten to first base on those sort of discussions.

Interviewer:    Okay. What, in your opinion, Mark, if anything, can be done to help ease the high
                cost of doing business as a fishing lodge in the Northwest Territories? Is there




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                         168
                anything you can think of that the government could do or that industry
                participants could do?

Mark
Damaske:        There are a couple of things, in my opinion, that hurt us as an industry. Once you
                get north of the, you know, Edmonton, Winnipeg, sort of tier—I mean, once you
                get north of there, well, you’ve got to fly your guests in from Winnipeg, or we’ve
                got to fly them in from Edmonton. The cost of those airline tickets—I pick those
                costs up, as do many of my competitors. Those airline tickets currently cost us, in
                some cases, hundreds of dollars more than guys who are flying half way across
                the United States to get to Edmonton. I mean, I paid less for my
                Milwaukee/Edmonton tickets than I’m paying on the best super seat saver fare
                that I can get on the Edmonton/Yellowknife and return. That would be a big help,
                bringing those airline costs down or bringing those airline costs at least to a level
                where we can operate at for a couple of years. And whether that happens with a
                subsidy or whether with a little jawing or a little arm twisting, it doesn’t really
                make any difference, but those costs have killed us. If you’re doing 120 guests
                and the flight goes up $50, you know, that’s a $6000 increase. It doesn’t sound
                like a lot, but $6000 off the bottom line is a lot of money, and that doesn’t include
                the increase in terms of gas and other things. So, that’s one area. I’d like to see an
                effort made to hold and/or bring down the cost of airline tickets from Edmonton
                North or from Winnipeg North.

                The other thing, I think, that isn’t necessarily something that any of us can do
                anything about is the exchange rate. The exchange rate, having plummeted about
                45 or 50 percentage points in the last three years, is a dagger in our hearts. It is a
                huge topic of discussion at the sport shows. I am not the only one, so to speak,
                crying in my beer about the exchange rate. It’s just tearing us limb from limb in
                terms of financially. We’ve lost 45 cents on every US dollar that we bring in in
                terms of buying power in Canada. If I spend [300,000] US dollars in Canada,
                three years ago I’d get $450,000 Canadian to spend on my expenses. This year, if
                I spend $300,000 in Canada, $300,000 US, I’m going to get about $325,000.
                Where do I make up the $125,000 loss? That really seems to, over the last three
                years, be the $64,000 question.

                And I don’t know that there’s an easy answer, but I—the approach that I’ve been
                led to believe is sort of on the forefront is to develop a website, and we’re going
                to help you book more business and so on and so forth. Somewhat of a silly
                approach in that if I’m losing $100 per guest, I don’t need to book more guests. If
                the exchange rate is causing me to actually lose money on every guest, I’ve lost so
                much of my buying power in Canada that I now am losing money per guest. The
                solution is not to put more guests in. I’ll just go broke quicker.

                The solution would seem to be helping us, if that’s possible, reduce our operating
                costs. And I know better than to simply say, “They should start writing cheques,
                or they should start handing out money.” I’m just not in the mode. That’s not me.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                          169
                But whether it’s a marketing grant or whether it’s long-term financing or whether
                it’s—for example, the ability to upgrade, for example, from a gas-diesel system to
                a solar and/or wind power if those sort of programs are available. It would be
                absolutely outstanding for me to cut out having to do the fuel hauls and things that
                I do. So, those are the kinds of things that might be helpful in terms of financing
                and in terms of bringing down costs because, you know, you’re not going to do it
                in three weeks or six weeks or six months. I think bringing down costs is going to
                have to be a season or two down the road because it’s not going to happen.
                There’s nothing right now short of writing cheques to us as a government grant or
                some sort of government subsidy, and I don’t expect that nor do I think any of
                competitors should expect that. So, there’s nothing in the short term that’s going
                to happen. I think those of us who are going to tough it out are going to have to
                tough it out and look to longer term programs to benefit us as lodge owners.

Interviewer:    Okay. What kind of support, if any, have your suppliers offered you in the past?
                For example, any co-marketing opportunities with local airlines? That would be
                an example of support; also, discounts could be seen as support.

Mark
Damaske:        Well, suppliers, I’ll tell you what—my suppliers have been absolutely wonderful.
                I went to them last year, and they were incredibly helpful. You know, it’s been
                support, basically businessman to businessman. “You know, Mark, you’ve been
                here nine years, you’ve not stiffed me on anything. You really—you know,
                you’ve been decent in terms of paying your bills.” And I approach them and say,
                “Listen, can you carry me for 30 or 60 or 90 days, or can you help me out here, or
                can you help me out there?” And they’ve been very willing to do that. But, again,
                that’s an area that’s really business to business. Is there room for a government
                agency or the Tourism Association to get involved there? Frankly, I’m not sure
                there is. A cooperative buying system—so many of us are geographically
                different. We’re using different suppliers. I don’t have a lot of hope for that sort
                of thing. I think our best foot forward with our suppliers is more a business to
                business, man to man kind of shake hands and, hopefully, we can work it out.

                If there is a role for the government to play or if there is a role for some sort of
                support there, I don’t readily see it, you know, other than possibly some—maybe
                some guarantees with a supplier that’s a little nervous on carrying us for 30 or 60
                or 90 days. You know, that’s a possibility, but I wouldn’t hold out a lot of hope
                for that sort of thing. I think the red tape involved there gets way beyond what is
                needed.

Interviewer:    What kind of assistance for marketing would you like to see from NWT Tourism?

Mark
Damaske:        Real simple. Use the program that Ontario used some years ago. It was a—I’m
                going back probably 18 or 20 years, maybe a little more than that. Very simple
                program. I needed to produce a paid contract for a sports show. I needed to



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        170
                produce a hotel receipt, again paid, for that particular sports show, and the
                Province of Ontario simply gave me a cheque for $250 a day for each and every
                sport show up to a maximum that was set at that time. I think the maximum at that
                time was $10,000 or $20,000. I think it was $20,000, or maybe it was $30,000
                over the course of two years or three years. But it kept the Northwest Territorial
                government, in this case, and the Ontario government, in that case, from being an
                accounting function. I mean, you have two receipts to look at. You get a paid
                contract in terms of the sports show. You get a paid hotel receipt, and you issue a
                cheque to—whether it’s Lac La Matre or whether its Plummers or whether it’s,
                you know, anybody else in the Territories there. You’d be issued a cheque for “x”
                amount of days. You allow one day for travel—one day for travel on the front
                end, one day for travel on the back end, and bingo! A very simple program to
                administer. I’m hesitant to suggest anything more complicated than that because
                we, as a business, we—I understand. I don’t want the government to spend more
                money on a program than is necessary, and I think that that would be a program
                that you could implement quickly. I think that would be a program that would
                take a minimum amount of oversight, and it addresses reducing our costs.

Interviewer:    Okay. What type of new marketing initiatives would you like to see from a
                regional perspective? For example, what are your thoughts on branding the
                Northwest Territories? What are your thoughts on promoting the NWT?

Mark
Damaske:        Yes, I think that the Northwest Territories has—and I’m a little familiar with what
                the budget constraints have been in the past and so on and so forth. I’ve been
                doing business there a long time. I think that branding makes some sense, but
                I’m—I have a big question mark about foreign markets as to, you know, the
                amount of money spent per guest brought into the country, etc., etc.

                There are millions of people in the United States—millions, who hear the term,
                NWT or Northwest Territories, and they look at me with a bit of a blank stare and
                say, “Is that still Canada?” or “Oh, isn’t that—I think that’s up by Alaska, isn’t
                it?” So, rather than spread around what I would consider to be a very limited
                resource, because the NWT has not got, for example, Alaska’s budget to spend on
                tourism—a very limited resource—spend it where it is going to do the most good.
                And that, in my humble opinion, would be in the United States. It has nothing to
                do with my being a resident or citizen of the US. I’m looking at it as if I were the
                businessman having to write cheques for marketing. Why would I fly 15,000,
                20,000 miles to Europe or to Asia or to England or to, you know, Africa or to
                Japan—why would I fly to those places when I’ve got millions of customers in
                the United States who don’t have a clue as to where the Northwest Territories is
                on a map and what it really has to offer?

Interviewer:    Okay. Have you had to shift your marketing and your advertising plan in the past
                few years to address the shift in the market?




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       171
Mark
Damaske:        We’ve—this is a secret. I’m—

Interviewer:    Well, you don’t have to share any trade secrets, but—

Mark
Damaske:        Okay. And I say that with a bit of a smile on my face. I have discovered how to
                use the Internet very effectively, and I have discovered that the sport shows are a
                dying entity and that TV is the real comer. And I’ll tell you what—five years ago,
                six years ago, seven years ago, you would have heard me raving about sport
                shows. I used to 10, 12, 14 sport shows a season, that being January, February,
                and March. I probably, for the ’06 season will do four or five, and two of those
                only because they’re here local and I can drive to them. The sport shows are
                dying. The attendance at the sport shows is dying. The quality of the people at the
                sport shows is declining dramatically. Television is absolutely, in my opinion, the
                hot commodity. The Internet is absolutely—I’m, for the first time ever, since I’ve
                been in this business, I’m booking as many people on the Internet and via the
                Internet as I was doing at all of my sport shows, for a whole lot less money.

                So, yes, I’ve shifted my marketing focus. I’ve hooked up with some of the big TV
                guys, and I do mean big—some of the biggest in the country—and some of that,
                by the way, is thanks to the NWT and the resources it offers in terms of natural
                resources, the quality of the fishing, the quality of the destination. You know, I
                member saying to one of the first TV guys that came up some years ago to my
                place, “Listen, if you do films at my place, you will have every tourism door open
                to you from thereon in.” And that fellow is now shooting videos all over the world
                for different lodges, resorts and tourist destinations. So, the NWT has a huge
                resource to offer and really can do a whole lot better job than it has been doing at
                getting its name out there, you know, in front of the hunters and the fishermen and
                the ecotourism guys and so on and so forth.

                Okay. One second. Okay. I’m just going to stop.

[Start of Tape 2]

Interviewer:    Okay, this is continued with Mark Damaske of Lac Le Matre Lodge.

                Mark, compared to how you market your fishing operation today—you just talked
                about TV shows, sport shows, and your thoughts on the use on the Internet—
                compared to how you’re doing things today, do you see this changing in the
                foreseeable future, in the short term? Or are you on a path that you’re comfortable
                with?

Mark
Damaske:        I think that—I think the sport shows will continue to decline, and I see that not
                just in terms of decline in attendance, but a decline in the type of individuals who



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        172
                need to be at those sport shows to buy $3,000 and $4,000 fishing trips. You know,
                we used to, years ago, look at sport shows as weekdays that was great because
                that’s when the businessmen, the suits and ties, so to speak, would be walking up
                and down the aisles. Today, in all honesty, it’s sort of a standing joke. The vast
                majority of the people walking up and down those aisles can’t afford an airplane
                ticket to Edmonton let alone a fishing trip to the Territories. And I think that that
                decline, unfortunately, is going to continue unless that industry does something to
                change it. And I’m not sure that they can. I’m not sure that the demographics of
                the people who attend sport shows are going to change at all, if at all, in the
                future. So, sport shows are going to continue to decline. I think that TV is going
                to continue to increase in its effectiveness, and I think the Internet, although it has
                some good points and some bad points, is really going to be the wave of the
                future. But, that presupposes that people learn how to use the Internet, and you
                don’t get—I mean, the Internet opens it up for all of us to claim all kinds of
                strange and wonderful things. And I’ve noticed that in some areas of our industry,
                people are making claims that get to be a little bit, a little big outrageous, and
                that—the Internet is absolutely ripe for that. I mean, it’s—I see what some of the
                guys put on their website. I see what information is being bandied about, and I see
                what information is withheld, and that can be a little dangerous for the consumer.

Interviewer:    Are you going to change your product or service offerings in the next couple of
                years?

Mark
Damaske:        Not really. I think that the niche of the somewhat high-end fishing trip that—and
                you’ll notice by our website in our whole marketing approach is that we don’t
                offer—I mean, I don’t claim to have five-star white glove service. I don’t offer
                two-story fireplaces and floor-to-ceiling windows. That’s not what our fishermen
                are coming to Lac La Matre for, and I think that the industry is hurting itself by
                pumping a million, million and a half, two million dollars into these fancy, fancy,
                fancy structures and chefs that they fly over here from Europe and serve food that
                you got cut open and look at for a while to determine what it is. I think that we’re
                hurting ourselves tremendously by bringing that sort of product to the table. I
                really do. I think that we need to give people a good honest fishing trip, good
                honest guys, good honest service and tell them what they can expect from the
                beginning to the end with a degree of honesty and integrity, and they’re going to
                go home with a smile on their faces. But, you know, we’re getting people that are
                offering these other fancy things that, you know, how do you put $2 million or $3
                million into a lodge and then expect to operate it and get money out of it, or sell it
                some day to someone who’s going to be able to make a profit? It just doesn’t
                make a lot of sense to me.

Interviewer:    Okay. What marketing strategies from competitive destinations do you feel are
                superior in attracting the sport fishing market?

Mark



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                          173
Damaske:        Let me just understand what you’re asking here. You’re asking me if I see other
                marketing programs from my competitors?

Interviewer:    That’s correct.

Mark
Damaske:        That are as attractive or more attractive than the things I’m doing?

Interviewer:    Yes.

Mark
Damaske:        No, not really. To be honest, I see a number of my competitors doing some things
                that we started doing years ago. I see them attempting to do some things that they
                can’t do because of the quality of the fishing that they have versus the quality of
                the fishing that we have. But I just have been a firm believer in honesty, and I
                think it’s great that we toot our own horns. It’s great that we put our best foot
                forward, but we need to do so with—in, frankly, a little more honesty. The
                industry is pretty good in that regard, but there are a few players out there that
                give us a black eye.

Interviewer:    Are there, in your opinion, are there—I’ll just ask you—what competitive sport
                fishing destinations, so what other lodges do an effective job at attracting sports
                fishermen from a marketing perspective? Not, necessarily from the Northwest
                Territories, from anywhere?

Mark
Damaske:        The one for me that comes to mind is Wollaston. Mike over there at Wollaston
                really does a super job. He’s great with customer service. He’s great—he’s got
                wonderful facilities, you know, wonderful boats and motors. I mean, he’s got a
                real first-class operation. In fact, I’m a bit envious, you know, he had bushel
                baskets full of money, unlike myself, but he does a great job, and he’s a real
                upstanding guy. Plummers does a good job. Again, we work together well. I’ve
                walked guests over to Plummers. Plummers has walked guests over to me because
                they happen to be looking for whatever it is that we have as a niche. But those
                guys market in a very honest and straightforward sort of way. They recognize
                what they have as a product. They sell that product, and they don’t try to be all
                things to all people. I think that’s where some of my competitors get themselves
                in hot water. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we can do this, and we can do that, and we can
                handle this, and we can handle that. You know, it’s—you know, whatever my
                strengths are I’ll sell to those strengths. Whatever my weaknesses are, I’ll point
                them out. And Mike does that at Wollaston. I know Plummers does that. They’re
                great people up there. Those would be two people I’d sort of point to and say,
                “You know what? They really do a good job in terms of marketing.”

Interviewer:    Okay. How are your clientele changing demographically, if they have changed at
                all? And can you tell me a bit about your clientele, age, their background, origin,



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        174
                genders. Are they travelling more on sort of a business vacation or more with
                family and friends?

Mark
Damaske:        Our clientele is not family and friends. Our clientele is almost always the guys. In
                some cases, it is businesses bringing up customers, clients or a group from a
                particular business that happens to have fished together in the past.
                Demographically, they’re going to be for the most part 45 years of age and older.
                Most of them are going to be management to upper management and many cases
                CEOs, CFOs, you know, owners and operators of the businesses. Not a lot of
                regular working sort of guys. These guys, as I said, are management, upper
                management; if not, senior management, CFOs, CEOs, owners, etc. The
                percentage of women that we get on a given year is—oh, we’ll get three, four,
                five, six ladies up a year tops. I know that some guys market a little bit stronger to
                that audience, but we just don’t have libraries and gymnasiums and fireplaces and
                TV reception and radio—we just don’t have that. We’re a fishing lodge and that’s
                really how we market. We target the guys 45 years and up and executives.

Interviewer:    Okay. In the past, have you ever owned or operated your own aircraft to service
                your lodge?

Mark
Damaske:        It’s sad to say, yes.

Interviewer:    Okay. And did the regulation changes from Canadian Air Transport Authority
                impact the fact that you owned and leased your own plane, or are you--?

Mark
Damaske:        Well, that was part of it, but the overall cost of operating an aircraft and certainly
                a big percentage of that is regulations, but I’m not so sure that I’m one of these
                guys who wants to see regulations tossed aside just to save money. But, yes, the
                cost of owning and operating an aircraft is such that there are not many lodges
                that can do that. We recognize that you’ve got to put “x” amount of revenue
                producing hours on an aircraft, as I said, since I’ve owned a couple of them. And
                if you can’t do it, man, don’t be in the aircraft business.

Interviewer:    Okay. So, regulations—how recently did you own the plane that serviced your
                lodge?

Mark
Damaske:        Oh, that was 15 years ago.

Interviewer:    It was. Okay.

Mark




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                          175
Damaske:        But I—and again, I—if that’s something that’s being looked at, I’m going to be in
                favor of it in that it will bring down costs for all of us.

Interviewer:    Sorry. Regulatory changes recently have impacted your bottom line?

Mark
Damaske:        Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Interviewer:    Okay. How many people do you employ each season, Mark?

Mark
Damaske:        I will generally have seven to nine staff, and I refer to them as staff. I hesitate to
                use the term employees. We bring our people on as contract workers. That’s an
                area that can definitely be addressed.

Interviewer:    Okay.

Mark
Damaske:        The idea that I have to have employee status, worker’s comp, withholding, for
                people who are going to work for me for nine weeks is ridiculous. All right. By
                the time I get systems implemented and cheques written and accountants paid and
                all that, I’m killing myself. I’m killing myself. That’s something that, you know—
                believe me—everybody who needs to hear that should hear that. Play that back
                loud and clear for them because it’s important that they understand you’re making
                a mountain out of a molehill by requiring us to jump through all the hoops
                regarding staffing practices, procedures and regulations.

Interviewer:    Okay. Can you tell me a bit about your typical employee? Are they from the
                NWT? Are they from the South? Are they summer students? Are they old?

Mark
Damaske:        We get a pretty good mix. In years past, I had hired pretty much exclusively from
                the Native village of Waite. The problem is that year after year and as time went
                on I found it more difficult each year to get and keep any of the people from
                Waite and actually ended up last year not hiring anybody from Waite. Now, this
                year, I’m going to bring some people back on and see if we can make it work.

                But, do we get some young people? Yes, I try to bring onboard a little older
                person so that they can understand and operate with some sense of what the
                corporate personality is for Lac La Matre. You know, they need to see the bigger
                picture as opposed to—Oh, gee, I have a secret fishing spot that I don’t want to
                share with someone. The person needs to understand that there’s a personality to
                Lac La Matre Lodge as a company, and we need to espouse and set that company
                personality sort of out there for everybody to understand and everybody to come
                to enjoy and like.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                           176
                The guides and the staff that we hire are readily available year-to-year. Some of
                them are, as you said, students, college students. Others are persons who are
                retired, and others are persons who really make a living full-time year round.
                They may work for me in the summer as a fishing guide. They may work for
                someone else in the fall as a hunting guide, etc. So, you know, there’s plenty of
                staff available, but I would highly encourage the paperwork bureaucracy to stay
                out of our sort of staffing.

Interviewer:    Okay. I’ll put that down in terms of a challenge for the area of employee hiring.

Mark
Damaske:        Absolutely.

Interviewer:    And employee retention, just the source of Waite being a difficult place to—for
                loyalty.

Mark
Damaske:        Yes, it—well, I mean, I could talk a long time about the difficulties of dealing
                with Waite and the cultural differences and so on and so forth.

Interviewer:    I understand.

Mark
Damaske:        But more importantly, let’s allow seasonal employment to be seasonal contractual
                employment as opposed to employee status. I can’t worry about 40-hour work
                weeks and punching a time clock. I can imagine me getting on the radio and
                saying, “Hey, by the way, boat so and so, with so and so as a guide, you’ve now
                been out there 8 hours. It’s time to come back because I can’t afford to pay
                overtime.” What do you think the guests in the boat would think of a comment
                like that? “Gee, wait a minute, you know, I’ve worked my 8 hours today, Mark.
                Unless you’re going to pay me overtime, I can’t clean my boat.” “Mark, unless
                you’re going to pay me overtime, I can’t take those guests out fishing tonight.
                Even though they’re going to tip me $50, $60, $80, $100 extra for a single night’s
                fishing, I can’t take them out because you’re not going to pay me overtime.” We
                need to get that out of the basket for sure.

Interviewer:    Okay. Last question. What do you feel are the key ingredients to running a
                successful sport fishing operation?

Mark
Damaske:        Fourteen, sixteen hour days and being willing to earn about half what you could
                in the corporate world.

Interviewer:    Okay. That’s a funny—that’s a great answer.

Mark



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                          177
Damaske:        And, you know, listen, we can chuckle at that but if you’re owning a fishing lodge
                and running a fishing lodge or owning a hunting, outfitting business and running
                that as an owner-operator, or someone who's there hands-on every day—if you’re
                doing that because you think you’re going to get rich, you better go seek some
                psychiatric help somewhere. There may be money to be made upon the time you
                decide to sell your business or decide to retire or whatever, but—I joke about it,
                but there’s a real serious tone to it. I could earn twice what I’m earning in the
                fishing lodge business if I were out in the corporate world. And most of the good
                fishing lodge owners and operators that I know fall into that category. I think the
                biggest and most important quality is that kind of commitment. The commitment
                that says when I get up in the morning, I’ll like what I’m doing. I’ll like running
                down to the dock with a camera to take a picture of a big fish, or I’ll like praising
                my guest who just caught the biggest fish of his life. I want to be the one to pat
                him on the back and shake his hand. If you don’t have that sort of fee for what
                you’re doing, then, by god, sell the lodge and go do something else. Sit behind a
                desk somewhere, because it just isn’t going to work well for you.

                We also, and I think here’s an important trait for all of us whether it’s hunting or
                fishing. We need to be chameleons. We need to be able to sit down with Joe and
                have a beer and eat some pretzels or potato chips and then tomorrow night, I need
                to sit down with guys who've got a $100 bottle of vodka in my freezer and are
                going to play trivial pursuit and who are the CEOs of companies that employ
                2,000, 3,000, 4,000 people, all right, and smoke cigars that I couldn’t afford to
                hold let alone smoke. You need to be that kind of chameleon. You need to have
                all of those personality traits and sort of qualities to work with those people so
                that they go home thinking that they had the best trip that was out there.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        178
Interview with Mr. Ragnar Westrom, Enodah Wilderness Travel

Q:              Okay. I’m with Mr. Ragnar Westrom of Enodah Wilderness.

A:              Wilderness Travel.

Q:              Wilderness Travel. I’m just taking a look, Ragnar, at one of your responses to the
                online survey and in 2000 and in—sorry, in 2001 and in 2002, you saw an
                increase in revenue. Then in ’03, it was relatively unchanged and then a decrease
                in the past two seasons. And I’m just wondering what do you think are the
                reasons behind that trend in the number of guests visiting your lodge over the past
                five years?

A:              Well, there’s a few factors there that—number one is our marketing budget is not
                what it should be. We don’t—we can’t afford to market the way we should, sport
                shows, sport magazines, etcetera, etcetera. And also it’s hard to get the younger
                generation into fishing. I mean it’s kind of disappearing. They’re into other stuff,
                kayaking, hiking, mountain climbing and stuff like that. There’s not enough push
                for fishing.

Q:              Okay. So you’re noticing a lack of new clientele because younger people are not
                fishing?

A:              Not as much as the older generations. I mean most of our clients are older folks,
                eh, from the old school. So the new generations are into kayaking and more to
                other stuff. So we need a fishing drive.

Q:              Okay. How do you think the industry’s participants, so the various lodge owners
                and guiding services in the NWT, how do you think they can work together, if at
                all, to improve the business market for sport fishing in the Northwest Territories?

A:              Co-op advertising, simple. It worked before. We did it with Economic
                Development maybe ten, fifteen years ago. Big ads in the—in the sporting
                magazines, fishing magazines and the operators could buy in, you know?

Q:              What are your thoughts on a group purchasing organization for NWT fishing
                lodges and outfitters for things such as commercial liability insurance?

A:              Well, it could work but the lodges up here, they have—seems to have a hard time
                to work together. I’m one of the few guys who work with other lodges but most
                of them is kind of—stick to themself, eh? Well, it could be worth a try.

Q:              Okay. So you wouldn’t be opposed to it if you were able to get the insurance you
                need, the coverage you needed and at a better price? You’d participate if it—if it-
                -?



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       179
A:              All savings helps, whatever we can save on.

Q:              Okay. What type of outside support from government, for example, do you feel
                would assist the industry in improving business conditions? You mentioned co-
                op advertising opportunities. Any other ideas?

A:              Yeah, marketing support. I mean it’s simple. I mean the only thing they do is
                these studies, studies, studies, every year, studies and nothing comes out of it. I
                mean it’s stupid. We know what we’re lacking. We’re lacking generic
                marketing.

Q:              What, in your opinion, can be done to help ease the high cost of doing business as
                a—as a fishing lodge in the Northwest Territories? What can government do?
                What can industry participants themselves do, if anything at all?

A:              Well, the only thing I can think of is to help paying for the airfare for the clients.
                I mean that’s a big—one of the biggest obstacles. It’s so expensive for the clients
                to get here, especially from Canada. I mean we got people from Vancouver,
                Toronto that like to come up. I give them the price and then they check the airfare
                and then they phone me back. They say, “No way.”

Q:              Okay. What kind of support, if any, have your suppliers offered you in the past?
                Have you had any of your airline suppliers or charter suppliers, for example, offer
                you co-op marketing opportunities with them or have you been offered discounts
                or preferred payments arrangements?

A:              Yeah, we get—we get some support from First Air Canadian North and also our
                charter Air Tindi gives us a better rate.

Q:              Okay. Just taking notes at the same time. Bear with me here, please. What kind
                of assistance for marketing would you like to see from NWT Tourism?

A:              The same thing there, co-op advertising and cash.

Q:              All right.

A:              You know? Show—there used to be a show program. Like ten years ago, we
                could do sport shows in the States or anywhere actually. And the government
                paid for the booth. I think they paid for the airfare and what we paid for was the
                accommodations and meals and stuff like that because it’s very costly to go from
                Yellowknife down to the States to do shows, you know, and compete with the
                southern markets. And I think that program worked pretty good but then they cut
                everything there about eight years ago.

Q:              Okay. What type of new marketing initiatives would you like to see from a
                regional perspective, so promoting NWT as a—as a region?



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                         180
A:              Well, the same thing, media, you know, magazines, TV, shows, [fam] tours.
                [Fam] tours is important. You know, invite—invite writers from all over, TV
                shows, journalists.

Q:              Have you had to shift your marketing and advertising plans over the past five
                years or so to address any change in the market?

A:              Yeah. I don’t have any money to do my proper marketing. So, yeah, it’s going
                down.

Q:              Okay. Compared to how you market Enodah today, how do you see this changing
                in the future with regards to your—to your fishing side of business?

A:              Well, I mean the thing we have going for us is that we’re probably the number
                one trophy pike fishing lodge in the world and that’s getting out now, you know?
                It’s been taking a long time but everybody we get there are blown away. I mean
                we got pikeaholics who’ve been fishing all over the world for pike and they all
                say the same. We are the—we are best pike fishing lodge ever. So that’s
                probably going to pay off when more of that word gets out. So it’s just a matter
                of marketing it.

Q:              Are you going to be changing your product or service offerings in the next couple
                of years to broaden your—broaden your customer base or are you going to stick
                primarily with core fishing?

A:              Oh, for summer times, it’ll be core fishing. We do some duck hunts and some
                meetings and stuff like that but you know we got six weeks of prime fishing. So
                that’ll be the same.

Q:              Okay. What marketing strategies, Ragnar, from competitive destinations do you
                feel are superior in attracting the sport fishing market? Anything you’ve seen out
                there from other lodges anywhere in the world that is different about their
                marketing that catches your eye?

A:              Yeah. They’ve got a marketing budget. We don’t.

Q:              Okay. In your opinion, what competitors do an effective job at attracting the sport
                fisherman from a marketing perspective? So are there any lodges out there and
                specifically by name that you—that you admire as far as their marketing goes that
                you know?

A:              Well, the only—the only one that comes to mind is Plummer’s because they’ve
                been there forever and they got—they got marketing money. You know,
                everybody knows Plummer’s. It’s been here for three generations. They’re in




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       181
                most—all the shows I go to, they’re always there. They’re, you know, they do
                lots of shows in the States.

Q:              Okay. Now you’ve touched on this a bit but if you could expand, I’d appreciate
                it. How are your clientele changing demographically, if they’ve changed at all?
                Can you tell me a bit about your clientele, their average age, where are they from,
                their gender? Are they traveling with a bunch of buddies or a lot of family trips,
                etcetera?

A:              Well, mostly what we get is the old school, the older guys. And we get them from
                all over the States but I mean ninety-five percent of our clients are Americans and
                if I should pick a region down there, I’d probably say Mid-West.

Q:              Mostly men? Mostly males?

A:              Yeah. Yeah.

Q:              And mostly—are they on business, entertainment trips? Are they taking clients
                up? Are they just old friends? Are they--?

A:              Well, they’re buddies. They’re some business trips. But, you know, they come
                for the fishing. And they’re generally older.

Q:              Okay. In the—in the past, have you ever owned or operated your own aircraft to
                service the lodge—your lodge?

A:              Negative. You know why?

Q:              Why?

A:              Because you can’t drink and fly.

Q:              That’s true. Okay. I’m sure it’s been done but it’s probably not a good idea. In
                fact, I’ll tell you a story later on. I know it has been. Have the regulations from
                the Canadian Transport Authority restricting lodge owners from owning and
                operating their own planes or actually have any changes and regulation changes
                from the Canadian Transport Authority affected your operation over the past few
                years?

A:              Well, yeah. The prices of air charters because now they have added on a landing
                fee and take-off fee a hundred bucks on the Twin Otters a couple of years ago.
                And I think that was done because they got so much—I’m not sure. I should pass
                on that question. Since I don’t have my own aircraft, I should pass on it. But
                that’s the only thing I can think of. I mean the charter companies, they’re under
                scrutiny from the Transportation and they have to implement new things and this
                and that. And, of course, we have to pay for it.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       182
Q:              Exactly! Okay. How many people do you employ each season?

A:              Probably between—about twelve, I should say, on the peak.

Q:              Okay. Can you describe your typical employee for me? Are they from the
                Northwest Territories, from another province or territory? Are they young, old?
                Are they students working for the summer?

A:              All of the above.

Q:              All of the above. Okay. What challenges do you encounter in the area of hiring
                employees or an employee retention, if any?

A:              It’s tough to get good people. I mean we can’t pay what the mines are paying or
                the [GNWT] are paying. So, you know, we have to try to find people that’s—
                love the outdoors more than they love money.

Q:              Okay. Last question here. What do you feel, Ragnar, are the key ingredients to
                running a successful sport fishing operation?

A:              Well, you’ve got to be professional. You’re going to have to have a good
                product. And you’ve got to be able to offer what you—what you’re advertising. I
                mean there’re some lodges that offer trophy fishing and I mean maybe get one or
                two a year. But if you run a professional operation and you have the trophy fish
                and good staff, good food, then it’s just a matter of marketing it. And that’s our
                problem up here I think goes for all the lodges, except Plummer’s, you know. It’s
                the marketing. It’s so damn expensive for us because our season is so short up
                here compared to the other lodges in the world, eh?

Q:              Okay.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                     183
Interview with Mr. Tom Klein, Scott Lake Lodge

Q:              Okay. I’m here with Tom Klein of Scott Lake Lodge. Tom, what do you think
                are the reasons behind the decline in the number of guests to your lodge over the
                past five years and, actually, if I just—I’ve just been looking at your survey
                response and I notice that in, I think it was the 2004 season, your--.

A:              That was ice.

Q:              Yes, your--.

A:              Purely ice. We had—we had sold out in 2004 but we lost a total of a hundred and
                two customers due to the late ice. So our numbers really had not declined.

Q:              No, they’ve increased every year except for that year.

A:              Yeah, except—well, actually, the survey didn’t cover it but we’ve had—this year
                has been a drop from the previous five years.

Q:              So this--.

A:              The 2006 season has been a very difficult one. We are going to show a decline in
                2006 after many years of gradual, steady growth and then stable period except for
                the ice year. So, you know, overall, it’s been—in the ten years I’ve owned this
                place, there’s been very steady increases in our total numbers.

Q:              Okay. What are your thoughts on a group purchasing organization for NWT
                fishing lodges and outfitters for items shared—shared items such as group
                insurance?

A:              Well, group insurance, I certainly think would be a great idea. It’s a big item in
                our budget. If there’s a savings, I would be all for it. Other things that have to be
                shipped get to be more complicated in terms of group buying and I guess where
                our—the source of our supplies are all in Saskatchewan, in which would be harder
                to do group purchasing with other NWT lodges.

Q:              Okay. Now I have to let you know and good on you but there is—there has been
                a decline amongst quite a few lodges in terms of business over the past five years.
                So Scott Lake Lodge is somewhat of an exception. What type of outside support
                from the government, for example, or NWT Tourism do you feel would assist the
                industry in reversing or slowing the decline that has been affecting other lodges?

A:              Well, you know, I think the—certainly the decline in the last three, four years for
                most lodges probably have to do with the—with the dollar, which I don’t think
                the government has too much power to control at the provincial level. That’s



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        184
                been the biggest resistance that we’ve experienced is we’ve had to raise prices to
                compensate for the collapse of the U.S. dollar. We’re getting price resistance
                now, particularly in this current year where we raised prices pretty dramatically.
                But, beyond that, I think having a more clear regulatory flow, we’ve had some
                difficulty in just getting defined what we can or can’t do within NWT waters, no
                long-term use of fly-out lakes, for example. Our fly-out lakes, which are critical
                to our business, absolute critical, is a year-to-year, which is a, you know, reason
                for anxiety and concern because what if they go away. It makes you less likely to
                invest for a long-term effort. So I think, you know, that issue needs to be looked
                at and allocation of waters and long-term commitments to the industry.

Q:              Okay. What, in your opinion, Tom, can be done to help ease the high cost of
                doing business as a fishing lodge in the Northwest Territories? Is there anything
                you can think of that government can do, something that’s been tried in the past in
                other areas that you’re familiar with that you’d like to see done? Or is there
                anything industry can do by banding together to reduce costs in any area?

A:              Well, you know, one of our biggest cost items is fuel. I don’t know whether there
                could be any tax rebates, the tax on say av gas or boat gas. You know, fuel is a
                huge item for us because, you know, we have to buy it in a northern location and
                we have to fly it in. When you fly fuel even fifty miles, they virtually double
                their cost of gas. So, you know, we look at our dock cost of fuel and depending
                on the year, that’d be between eight and nine dollars a gallon Canadian, which is a
                huge item in our budget, especially for our planes. And I’m not sure what
                percentage of that is tax but I imagine a very healthy amount of it is and some
                provision that, you know, [indiscernible] used in the industry would have some
                rebate for that consumption. I don’t know how that would fly.

                Insurance is—I really like the idea of some kind of government-sponsored
                insurance. We’re spending about thirty grand on our basic, you know, liability
                and, you know, not casualty, you know, the--whatever the insurance is called that
                protects you from loss, so that’s—could certainly be something the government
                might be able to help with.

Q:              Okay. Now what kind of support, if it’s ever happened, have your suppliers
                offered you in the past? Have any of your airline partners or food suppliers ever
                offered you any co-marketing opportunities, well, airlines in particular, regarding
                co-marketing opportunities? Have you ever received any support from your
                suppliers?

A:              You know we have in a way. We have been able to keep our prices for two years,
                which I think given this environment, is rather remarkable, from our—our
                primary transportation vendor is Transwest, which we have a charter flight from
                Saskatoon to Stony Rapids, a five hundred mile one-way trip. That’s an
                expensive—biggest—it’s the single biggest piece of our budget is the cost of
                getting our clients from a commercial airport close to our lodge. And they have



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       185
                held their prices. So that’s been a help. I think they know that there’s only so
                much blood in the stone. They’ve squeezed most of it out. Again, I don’t know if
                there could be some kind of government subsidy program that would help the
                industry, you know, with that or not. But we don’t have any other co-operative
                marketing programs with other vendors.

Q:              Okay. What kind of assistance from marketing would you like to see from NWT
                Tourism or ITI, which is the government’s Department of Industry, Tourism and
                Investment?

A:              Well, I think, you know, they have done some ad programs. We have participated
                in the one that is currently ongoing that involved a free trip website advertising
                with U.S. magazines. It seems to be it started too late to be effective for this year
                but I think that’s the right idea, to really do some target marketing. I think the
                efforts at sport shows are probably not the most effective way to—for them to
                spend money. It’s not a targeted audience.

Q:              Tom, I’m sorry, I’m just going to—I’m just going to stop you for a sec. Is
                there—is there anything you can think of, in terms of your marketing plan and
                initiatives that you’d like to see the government support you in? Is there anything
                specifically that you think they could do to make things easier for you and to be
                successful?

A:              You know, I really—I think that the marketing success is going to be so
                customized by a lodge. Our marketing is really an affinity marketing, friends of
                existing clients. We just go after a network of individuals. And I don’t know
                how a government could, you know, could be involved in that kind of marketing.
                General magazine advertising about the--you know, what the Northwest
                Territories is, it would--is a good backdrop but, you know, I just—other than
                having some direct cash subsidies for people’s marketing program, which would
                be wonderful but I think unrealistic, that’s really about all I can suggest.

Q:              Okay. When you think of the Northwest Territories as a region and as a—and
                what you’re familiar with in terms of its regional promotion, are there any types
                of new marketing initiatives that you’d like to see as far as promoting the NWT as
                a—as a region? And I’m kind of touching on branding here. Do you have any
                thoughts on that?
A:              Well, I, you know—I think branding, you know, NWT as the last frontier of
                wilderness fishing might be effective and it would certainly help all the people
                that are in the industry. Maybe more—more of a focus—I’m not sure what kind
                of a website NWT has for fishing but nearly everyone now does their research on
                the Internet, which has changed marketing in the fishing industry radically just in
                the ten years that I’ve been [in it]. So I think a really super website on NWT
                fishing, a lot of support advertising to get people to that website, whether that’s
                the sponsored links or just magazine ads that basically refer people to the




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        186
                websites. I think that’d be the most productive thing the government could do to
                create a branded image for, you know, for NWT fishing.

Q:              Okay. Tom, recently have you had—or in the past five years, have you had to
                shift your advertising or marketing plan to address a shift in the market?

A:              No, we’ve been in pretty much—well, our history is we did abandon the sport
                show track because we were not seeing any results. But I think, you know, a
                lodge’s marketing plan is completely dependent on the price range that they’re
                looking for. If you’re a high-end lodge, you’re not going to do well at sport
                shows. If you’re a drive-to lodge that’s, you know, a week for a thousand to two
                thousand dollars, that’s exactly where you want to be is in Chicago, in
                Indianapolis and Minneapolis to work those kind of sport shows. But, you know,
                we did shift our marketing style to find the demographic that we were looking for,
                which, again, was not magazine ads, was not sport shows, but, well, almost a
                neighbourhood target of holding events for, you know, in certain affluent
                neighbourhoods that would attract people that, you know, have the ability to go to
                a high-end lodge.

Q:              Okay. Compared to how you market your fishing lodge today, do you see this
                changing in the future and, if so, how?

A:              Well, if I—if I knew that answer, I wouldn’t be on the phone. I’d be—I’d be
                fishing in the Bahamas right now. I really don’t know how it’ll change. I think as
                our place becomes more and more expensive due to the U.S. dollar decline, we’re
                going to have to get more and more targeted in our marketing and just go after a
                very thin slice of the market that can afford, you know, an expensive lodge or
                we’re going to have to shift our staffing and our overhead to go after a lower
                priced market. But right now we’re just concentrating on the friends of friends of
                friends concept and trying to work as close as we can to our existing customer
                base.

Q:              Okay. Do you have plans to change your product or service offerings in the next
                couple of years to broaden your customer base or are you going to stick with
                your—with what you’re doing now in terms of--?

A:              No, we plan to stay with what we’re doing unless we find it is just untenable as a
                business. But I don’t think it is. We just need to do a lot of off-season one-on-
                one sales work. But, no, we’re going to keep the same kind of program with a
                very staff service heavy product and very high amenities.

Q:              Okay. What marketing strategies, Tom, from competitive destinations do you feel
                are superior in attracting the sport fishing market? Is there anything anybody’s
                doing out there that you think really is effective?




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      187
A:              Well, that is a very—that’s the key question of the whole thing and I’ll—I think
                that successful fishing destinations are relying more on the, oh, the whole
                category of booking agents. You know, right now Argentina and Chile have a
                really solid trout fishing program but I—you never see ads for Chile and
                Argentina anywhere but you do see a lot of ads for—with the—all of the
                companies that sell fishing packages from, you know, frontiers to any number of
                different companies. And I think that’s where NWT has not been very successful
                and it could be that it’s—there aren’t as many high-end offerings in the NWT that
                that particular service goes after. They want the expensive trips because,
                obviously, their commissions are bigger and—but that’s where I’ve seen, you
                know, great success, a lot of companies that serve as the middle man for lodges.

Q:              Okay. In your opinion, what competitive fishing lodges do an effective job at
                attracting the sport fishermen from a marketing perspective? Which companies
                out there do you think—do you admire? Do you—do you--?

A:              There’s a—you mean just in Canada or anywhere?

Q:              Anywhere. Let’s go anywhere.

A:              There’s a company called Shackleton, which is based in the U.K.

Q:              Could you spell that please?

A:              S-h-a-c-k-l-e-t-o-n, I think. They own lodges in the Bahamas, in New Zealand.
                You know, they do high-end lodges kind of all over. And they do a great job.
                They tend to keep their facilities at full capacity. They do a lot of direct mail
                marketing. You get some beautiful brochures for their lodges. I don’t think they
                use much media advertising. I don’t ever recall seeing ads for some of these, you
                know, lodges. Mangrove Cay is one in the Bahamas. It’s very successful. So,
                that’s one. I think in Northern Canada, there’s Hatchet and Walsten have very
                effective marketing programs and, you know, a fairly large sales effort. We try to
                do our business with minimum sales effort and—to keep those costs down. But
                some people do a great job of getting their word out and I think getting good
                numbers of customers. I don’t—I don’t know the balance sheets of my
                competitors but they seem to do well.

Q:              Okay. How are your clientele changing demographically, if they’re changing at
                all?

A:              Well, ours is becoming more and more affluent as we’ve—we went through a
                preface over ten years of upgrading our facilities, upgrading our staff, upgrading
                our equipment and so our—the customers that we had ten years ago are probably
                priced out of our—out of the market right now for us. So we have been always
                looking for people with high disposable income that price is not the object. When




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                     188
                they want to decide where to go, the cost is irrelevant. And that’s the—that’s our
                target audience and we found quite a few of those but--.

Q:              Are you noticing any changes in age or their origin or their gender or whether
                they’re traveling on a business trip or with friends and family?

A:              We get very few business—our corporate business is insignificant. We have a
                few small corporate groups but we’re getting family groups often and probably
                they’re getting a little bit older. Our typical customer is, you know, fifty to sixty
                years old. He might bring up a son or two. He might bring up even the young
                grandkids. We get a lot of three-generation groups that come up. So small family
                groups of serious anglers is the core of our market.

Q:              Okay. In the past, Tom, did you ever own and operate your own aircraft to
                service your lodge?

A:              We do. Yes, we own—we own one Beaver.

Q:              Okay. Have regulation changes post-nine-eleven regulation changes from the
                Canadian Transport Authority restricting lodge owners from owing and operating
                their own planes affected your operation?

A:              Not directly. It’s a very aggressive enforcement program. I think some of the
                rule changes—I don’t know that they were nine-eleven inspired, but external
                loads, very difficult now to do if you want to move a canoe or move a big piece of
                lumber or something, that’s gotten more and more complicated. But I don’t know
                of any specific things with a regulatory [climate]. We don’t—we don’t have an
                operating certificate so--and it should be the people that do the flying would be
                better people to answer that question. I know I hear a lot of complaints about the
                service that we use. We own a plane but we lease it back to a company to
                actually do the flying. So it’s not a major issue I don’t think.

Q:              Okay. How many people do you employ each season?

A:              We have thirty-one people on staff, on a seasonal basis. Only two people on a
                twelve-month basis, my son and myself.

Q:              Okay. Can you describe your typical employee, for example, how old are they in
                general? Are they seasonal workers? Are they from the Northwest Territories?
                Are they from Saskatchewan?

A:              Well, I’ll give a best shot at it. The range would be from—actually our range is
                from twenty to fifty-five. I don’t really have the—a category to plunk them in
                except they’re all Canadian residents and citizens pretty much from across
                Canada. Most are from—are from Saskatchewan but by no means all. We have
                people from the Yukon, a quite a few people from Manitoba. There’s people



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        189
                from B.C. There’s people from Alberta. And our guiding staff is fairly
                experienced now. Their average age is probably more like thirty-five. We do not
                try to recruit many, college—any, you know, college student age. We try to get
                an older, we hope, more mature [grouping] but there’s a big range. And we
                certainly have some people that are in their early twenties that—and the wait staff
                tends to be younger. But our guides and maintenance group are all, you know,
                quite a bit older with more experience.

Q:              Okay. What challenges, if any, do you encounter in the area of employee hiring
                or an employee retention?

A:              You know we’ve been very either lucky or successful. Our retention has been
                excellent where our turnover every year is ten to fifteen percent. Three, four
                people maybe five in a—in a bad year is our turnover. So we really haven’t had
                any serious problems with that.

Q:              Okay. The last question, what do you feel are the key ingredients to running a
                successful sport fishing operation?

A:              I think there’s really only one and that is just what we call extreme customer
                service and that—what will bring people back more than any other element is just
                taking care of that customer from the day you book them to shaking hands when
                they leave your lodge, is keeping them informed on everything that’s going to
                happen, how it’s going to happen, exactly when it’s going to happen to, you
                know, checking in with them repeatedly during their stay and very careful of post-
                trip evaluation. So it’s letting your customer know you are really concerned about
                the kind of experience they had. And that’s—of course, they can catch fish, too,
                but that you can’t control. The one thing you can control is how you take care of
                your customer.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        190
Interview with Mr. Ron Cojocar, Selwyn Lake Lodge

Q:              [Here] we go, I’m with Ron Cojocar of Selwyn Lake Lodge. Ron, what do you
                think are the reasons behind the decline in the number of guests to Selwyn Lake
                Lodge in the past five years and I’m actually looking at the survey responses and
                it looks like it remained unchanged up until 2003. And then there was a decrease
                in 2004 and 2005. What are your thoughts on why that was?

A:              Well, probably three reasons and number one reason would be the relationship
                between Canada, NWT and the United States, a lot to do with the border crossing
                and just the relationship our past Prime Minister caused us. And I guess the
                number two reason would be the American economy is a lot worse than people
                realize. And number three you know the effects from the September 11th there –
                911 – and the war with Iraq.

Q:              Okay. How do you think the industry’s participants can work together to turn
                things around and slow or reverse a decline in business?

A:              That’s a hard one. Well, we’re doing what we can now. You know, we have to
                keep doing the sports shows and promoting goodwill and just hope that the new
                Prime Minister can get things straightened out and go from there I guess.

Q:              Okay. What are your thoughts on a group purchasing organization for NWT
                fishing lodges and outfitters for things like insurance, fuel and food possibly?

A:              Well, I know the outfitters in Saskatchewan have a program that they—that they
                follow in and also like Selwyn Lake belongs to a private group of two other
                camps that do volume purchasing between the three of us. There’s three camps
                involved and we do our fuel and food and boats and motors and et cetera on a
                volume and then the whole industry sort of works with a couple of suppliers on
                that basis. So I think the NWT should look into that.

Q:              Okay. What’s the name of the—of the Saskatchewan organization that people--?

A:              Saskatchewan Outfitters Association.

Q:              Okay. Great.

A:              And Hal Stupnikoff is our Executive Director.

Q:              Okay.

A:              Do you want a phone number later?




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                          191
Q:              Later, sure. Thank you. What type of outside support do you feel would assist
                the industry in reversing or slowing the decline in the NWT?

A:              Outside support like from suppliers, et cetera?

Q:              Sure, from suppliers, from government?

A:              Well, I think the government knows that they’ve got to do what they have to do to
                patch up the relationship and promote tourism business. And suppliers like, you
                know, take Merc Motors, Yamaha, you know, Lund Boats. I know for a fact that
                the guys from Merc and Lund, they do a sales blitz and they attend sports shows.
                They send reps down and talk to outfitters at the shows. And the customers there
                are coming in the doors also. So there are some suppliers that are out there trying
                to promote goodwill.

Q:              Okay. What, in your opinion, can be done to help ease the high cost of doing
                business as a fishing lodge in the Northwest Territories? What are your thoughts
                on what government can do or what the industry can do?

A:              I don’t know. The major cost is the cost of getting the supplies in to our – to open
                up camp like the floatplane costs, et cetera. And I don’t know if they can do
                much to curb the cost on that. Other than that, I don’t know.

Q:              Okay. What kind of support, if any, have your suppliers offered you in the past;
                any co-marketing opportunities with local airlines? Anything?

A:              I should mention like with the Saskatchewan Outfitters, approximately, oh, eight
                – ten years ago, the government and SOA, Saskatchewan Outfitters Association, –
                we put a charter – a direct charter out of Denver to Saskatoon, which was funded
                by the government. And that went on for three years. And then after three years,
                it was supposed to be able to support itself. But a lot of outfitters were scared to
                put some of their people on the charter with other camps.

Q:              Okay.

A:              So it did work for the three years but, you know, with the government assistance.

Q:              Right. Okay. I had never heard of that before. That’s amazing. Okay.

A:              And with the, you know—for airline connections, we only have the Northwest
                Territories, I mean Northwest flying into Saskatchewan. I’m not sure there’s too
                many direct flights that go into the NWT either. So probably better airline
                connections would be a help.

Q:              Okay. Okay. Just a minute, please. Okay.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       192
A:              With the group insurance—most of the outfitters work through SOA with BA
                Insurance in Prince Albert and I’m not sure what the other camps in NWT, if they
                individually go seek their insurance or if they have a main one that works with--.

Q:              Not right now. Okay. What kind of assistance for marketing would you like to
                see from NWT Tourism?

A:              Well, I am sure they’re attending a number of sports shows and I’m not sure if the
                increase in the—of the sports shows themselves would help. I’ve been in the
                business twenty-five years and we’ve always said amongst ourselves that, you
                know, as soon as we find something better than sports shows, we’re going to drop
                the sports shows but we’re still doing them. So it’s—there’s not much out there
                that’s actually better than meeting the public one on one and talking to them at the
                sports shows. Well, as far as government participation other than, you know,
                attending the sports shows, maybe do a few more in the States. I’m not aware of
                how many they’re doing at the moment.

Q:              Okay. What types of new marketing initiatives would you like to see as far as
                marketing the Northwest Territories?

A:              I’m not aware if they’re doing any direct mail marketing. That might be an
                avenue they’d want to look at. The cost of doing shows is getting pretty
                prohibitive and maybe, you know, get the right direct mail list might help.

Q:              Okay. Have you had to shift your marketing advertising and marketing plan in
                the—in the past few years to address the changes in the market recently?

A:              Yeah, actually, we’ve cut back on some shows and have spent more money—
                spent money on our Internet. That seems to be helping where more people are
                just going on the Internet and finding their fishing destination. So we’re
                upgrading our Internet and spending more money and try to keep it at the top of
                the—of Google when people click on ‘fishing camps NWT’ or ‘Saskatchewan’.

Q:              Right and it’s working. It’s real easy to find you guys.

A:              Yeah, we’re getting [some] bookings via the Internet.

Q:              Okay. Compared to how you market your fishing operation today, do you see this
                changing in the future?

A:              Yeah because the next—the next two – three years, I think, are still going to be
                slow. I’m not sure if the American economy is going to – it’s going to take at
                least three or four years before it’s back. And even the dollar exchange, I don’t
                think the Canadian dollar is going to be like it used to be, you know, when we
                were getting 50 percent exchange on the U.S. money.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       193
Q:              Right. Okay. Are you going to change your product or your service offerings in
                the next couple of years?

A:              No, Selwyn’s got a name out there that is, you know, one of the, you know,
                deluxe, luxury, you know, fly-in and trophy fishing camps. So it’d be pretty hard
                to, you know, to change our services.

Q:              Okay. Are there any marketing strategies from other fishing lodges, from
                competing lodges that you—that you admire that you feel are superior and doing
                a really good job in attracting the sport fishing market? Anything different that
                anybody’s doing that--?

A;              No. Like I said, I’ve been at it twenty-five years and I got to know a lot of people
                like throughout, you know, B.C., Manitoba, Northwest Territories as well as
                Saskatchewan. I don’t know. We all—we seem to be doing as much or more
                than most of them. So there’s nothing--not one thing that sticks out in my mind
                that we should be doing that other camps are doing.

Q:              Okay. In your opinion, what other competing fishing lodges are doing a really
                good job at marketing?

A:              Campeau [ph] Lodge and then Plummer’s – Plummer’s has always been ahead
                or—of all the other marketing groups; in Saskatchewan, like Hatchet Lake,
                Athabasca Camps. There’s a group in B.C. – it slips my mind – they’ve got about
                four or five camps and--.

Q:              West Coast Fishing Club? Or Langara?

A:              Well, the group that owns Langara – is that what they’re called?

Q:              No, I think it’s – I’m not sure who owns Langara. I thought it was called
                Langara.

A:              No, I’m not sure that’s – they’re out of Victoria. I just can’t think of it.

Q:              Oh, you’re thinking about the Oak Bay Marine Group.

A:              Oh, Oak Bay, yeah, yeah.

Q:              Okay.

A:              Yeah, they do a strong--.

Q:              Oh, for sure.

A:              Strong marketing program.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       194
Q:              Yeah, okay. How are your—how are your clients changing demographically, if
                they’ve changed at all? Tell me about your clients in terms of age or origin,
                gender? Are they traveling with family or friends or more so on business, higher
                income, lower income?

A:              Well, I’m finding that it seems like the--well, the thirty to the fifty year olds aren’t
                doing as much fishing on their own, with their friends or – there seems to be more
                family-oriented vacation plans and not necessarily, you know—they’re not
                coming fishing. They’re doing something else with their family other than them
                coming fishing by themselves.

Q:              Okay.

A:              It seems that we’re losing those—that middle age group.

Q:              I see. Because they’re looking for something other than fishing or in addition to
                fishing?

A:              Well, maybe—you know, not so much in addition to fishing but like they’re doing
                family vacations on other things. And even some of our corporate people, golfing
                has become a big opposition to us the last couple of years. A lot of the companies
                are taking their people on golfing excursions instead of fishing.

Q:              Okay. What major problems, new trends or barriers other than costs have you
                experienced in expanding or in retaining your market share? I mean specific
                examples are 911, SARS, Mad Cow?

A:              Yeah, that’s—well, marketing is always going to be a problem and you’re always
                battling that. It’s like within the—our own in-house thing. It’s to try to keep up
                with getting certified guides to provide quality fishing trips. You know, finding
                the chef and stuff isn’t usually that much a problem except that – I’m sure I’m not
                the only one but the other camps, too – it’s hard to have a three-month season and
                expect to keep the same chef or staff members year after year.

Q:              Right. Okay. That was actually another – you’ve just answered a question down
                the list here. That’s great. Maybe I’ll just continue on with that. So what—so
                that’s a big challenge in the area of employee hiring or an employee retention.
                It’s just because of the short season, it’s difficult to--?

A:              Yes, to expect people to--.

Q:              To expect people to--.

A:              You know, show loyalty to you for three months and then expect to get off for
                nine and then come back. And then – like in Saskatchewan here, we have – are
                you guys familiar with STC (certified guiding programs)?



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                           195
Q:              I’m not familiar with the Saskatchewan program, no.

A:              But the NWT has some or one, I imagine?

Q:              I don’t believe so.

A:              Oh, because all our guides are certified in Saskatchewan before they come work
                for us.

Q:              Who certifies them?

A:              It’s a group called STEC, Saskatchewan Technical Education – I just forget the –
                I was just actually reading a letter from them the other day. But if the guides can
                take this course and program and then, you know, it helps them relate to
                customers and how to handle fish and, you know, hygiene and stuff like that. It
                just seems over the last couple or three years, we’ve noticed a lot better rapport
                between the guides and the—and the customers.

Q:              How long is the program?

A:              Let’s see, my guides took it for – it was a week course and, you know, six –
                approximately six hours a day. You know, a lot of it’s in the—in the room and
                then some actually out in the field.

Q:              Yes.

A:              But I think within a week, they can—they can get their certificate.

Q:              And is it—it’s mandatory to--?

A:              Some of the camps make it mandatory that they won’t hire a guide that’s not--.

Q:              Not certified.

A:              Not certified.

Q:              Okay. That’s interesting. And do you – for Selwyn, where do you hire most of
                your guides out of?

A:              Most of them come out of Black Lake.

Q:              They do come out of Black Lake?
A:              Black Lake, Saskatchewan. Stoney Rapids and Black Lake.

Q:              Right. Okay.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       196
A:              And we hire probably 80 percent native guides.

Q:              Right. Yeah. That was—that was the case when I was there. There was a retired
                chief who was our guide when we were there. I wish I remembered his name.
                It’s in the book.

A:              Was it Victor?

Q:              No, but Victor was there. How is Victor?

A:              He wasn’t up last year with me. But I got to—in talking with some of the guides,
                I knew there was a—there was a, like you say, I think there was a chief but I just
                can’t remember what his name was. But he’s not—he wasn’t--.

Q:              He wasn’t there?

A:              He wasn’t guiding last year.

Q:              Okay. Okay. Next question – in the past, did you own or operate your own
                aircraft to service your lodge?

A:              Well, we do own a 185 and we just bought a Beaver.

Q:              Wow!

A:              Four cyl. And that stays up at the—at the camp all summer long.
Q:              Did the regulations from Canadian Transport Authority restricting lodge owners
                from owning and operating their own planes affect your operation at all?

A:              No, other than you have to keep a whole lot better books. My pilot was just—was
                cursing every time he’d make two or three trips a day, he’d have to spend an hour
                filling out paperwork.

Q:              Yeah. Okay. How many people do you employ each season at Selwyn?

A:              Well, on a part-time basis, usually ten guides, the chef, two waitresses, the cabin
                girl and a dock boy and the pilot.

Q:              Okay. And a manager?

A:              And the manager, of course, yeah.

Q:              Okay. You’ve got to get paid, too. Sometimes it’s easy to forget. Okay. Can
                you tell me a little bit about your typical employee by—as far as who the guides
                are, who your typical manager is, what the cook is like, where they’re from,
                housekeepers?



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        197
A:              Like we talked about, most of the guides come from Black Lake and Stoney
                Rapids. A couple of – one guide is out of Regina and one from Winnipeg. The
                chef we usually find – get a local chef from right out of Saskatoon here along with
                the two waitresses and the cabin girl. And we’ve been – over the years, we’ve
                had the same chef maybe two or three times for a course of two years and one girl
                we did have for three years. But usually even a case like that with the girls that
                are going to university and they’re able to come up in the summertime and they’ll
                come back two or three years in a row before they graduate and head out on their
                own.

Q:              Okay.

A:              Pilots are usually harder to fly, especially with the hours now with the insurance.
                They need a lot more hours nowadays and it’s hard to find pilots with floatplane
                endorsements with the number of hours needed for the insurance end of it. The
                one we have now – last year we had a gentleman out of Edmonton and he’s
                coming back this year, too. So that’ll be two years in a row for him.

Q:              Okay. What do you feel are the key ingredients to running a successful sport
                fishing operation?

A:              Well, number one would be your guides. You know, they spend eight to nine
                hours with your customer every day. So, you know, it’s the guide that’s going to
                make or break the trip for that customer. And the chef or your cook, you know if
                the meals aren’t adequate. Another thing that sticks out in people’s mind when
                they get back home is whether the food was good or not. You know, the girls—
                the ones behind the scenes, you know, they don’t get seen that much like the
                cabin girls and the waitresses get noticed, you know, for the one hour that they’re
                serving the meals and stuff. But, mainly, you know, it’s—I would say your are
                your number one people that you should have to – like that’s the one thing about
                having to be certified and stuff is -- because it doesn’t matter how good the food
                is or, you know, how much money you spend on building your lodge, and how –
                well, the fishing is second but if—even if they catch a trophy fish and stuff. But it
                like, you know, they don’t have a good experience with their guide there, they’re
                not likely to come back, especially if there’s a group of guys, you know, eight or
                ten guys and all—you get all ten people complaining about the guides, well, then
                – and then right off the bat, you know, you’ve got problems with five or six of
                your guides. So, if even—if one guy had one good guide, the other five or eight
                people didn’t, so that’ll make a decision on where they’re going to go next year.

Q:              Okay. Thanks, Ron.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        198
Interview with Ms. Pamela Taylor, Sandy Point Lodge
Responses to the below interview questions were typed by Ms. Taylor. Her responses are
bulleted.

Business Operations
   1. What do you think are the reasons behind the decline in the # of guests to your lodge over
      the past 5 years?
   • Mostly 9/11
   2. How do you think the industry’s participants can work together to turn things around and
      slow or reverse such a decline in business? *Check responses of survey.
   • Target markets with GNWT money for Tourism advertising on TV, Ads in USA and
      large Canadian markets like Ontario.
   3. What are your thoughts on a group purchasing organization for NWT fishing lodges and
      outfitters?
   • No
   4. What type of outside support do you feel would assist the industry in reversing or
      slowing the decline?
   • Funding so owners can attend shows in the USA
   5. What, in your opinion, can be done to help ease the high cost of doing business as a
      fishing lodge in the NWT? What can government do? What can the industry participants
      themselves do?
   • Subsidize heating and generator fuel (ie farmers gas)
   6. What kind of support have your suppliers offered you in the past? ie. Co-marketing
      opportunities with local airlines.
   • Marginal support, Canadian North offers IT fares but they are still costly.

Marketing
  7. What kind of assistance for marketing would you like to see from NWT Tourism or
      GNWT ITI?
  • Money for traveling to shows in NWT, good packages going out in mailings to tourist
      offices, wherever relevant, Maintaining a good website, fighting for subsidies.
  8. What types of new marketing initiatives would you like to see from a regional
      perspective? ie. NWT Tourism/ITI regional initiatives.
  • Target marketing, VISIT the NWT TV ads.
  9. Have you had to shift your marketing advertising and marketing plan in the past few
      years to address the shift in the market? If “yes”, ask how it changed; if “no”, ask why
      they feel their marketing strategies have been successful.
  • Yes, more shows, less magazine ads (other than the main ones like the NWT Explorers
      Guide) Guests are all word of mouth, and corporate clients, when we attend shows in
      Alberta and have up pictures of guys at the show on our board, and they tell their peers,
      that is when the main bookings happen. People like to see who they are dealing with.
      Magazine ads have brought in no business at all in the last couple years.
  10. Compared to how you market your fishing operation today, how do you see this changing
      in the future?
  • We are going to focus on USA shows next year.


John St. Louis Consulting                                                                   199
    11. Are you going to change your product/service offerings in the next couple of years to
        broaden your customer base?
    • Yes, we are adding guided fishing, we currently have not guides, guests take the boats out
        alone. On off times we have renovated our cabins to accommodate families-we’ve added
        kitchenettes so we can offer a weekly rate with no food provided which is much more
        accessible to families.
    12. What marketing strategies from competitive destinations do you feel are superior in
        attracting the sport fishing market?
    • B.C.! B.C.! B.C.! Great provincial advertising on TV to visit B.C. People in Alberta will
        often look to B.C and not even think of the Northwest Territories, yet we are in their back
        yard.
    13. In your opinion, what competitive sport fishing destinations do an effective job at
        attracting the sports fisherman from a marketing perspective?
    • B.C.! B.C.! B.C.!


Clientele
   14. How are your clientele changing demographically if they have changed at all? Tell me
       about your clientele:
          • Age?                     Middle Age
          • Ethnic background? Causasion
          • Origin?                  Canadian/American
          • Gender?                  Male
          • Traveling with family or friends? Yes, and corporate clients are very common
          • Income?                 Above average
          • $ spent?                 500.00 per day
          • Length of trips?         3-4 days
          • Repeat or New clients? Repeat 60%, New 40%

Market Barriers
  15. What major problems, trends and barriers (other than cost) have you experienced in
      retaining and expanding market share? Specific examples could include 9/11, SARS,
      mad cow or the higher price of fishing in the NWT relative to competing destinations.
  • Cost for travel, airfares and a lack of knowledge of the NWT. Many southern Canadians
      think the NWT is the Yukon.
  16. In the past, did you own/operate your own aircraft to service your lodge? Did the
      regulations from the Canadian Transport Authority, restricting lodge owners from
      owning and operating their own planes affect your operation? Please explain.
  • Not applicable

Human Resources
  17. How many people do you employ each season?
  • 5
  18. Describe your typical employee by the following job title.
         a. Guide           2
         b. Manager         1


John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      200
            c. Cook             1
            d. Housekeeper 1
    19. If you could create an ideal employee, what characteristics would this person have?
    • Not afraid of work or outdoors, friendly, flexible and honest
    20. What challenges do you encounter in the area of employee hiring or in employee
        retention?
    • Seasonal work

    Ingredients for Success
    21. What do you feel are the key ingredients to running a successful sport fishing operation?
    • Service, price, location and good fishing.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                     201
Interview with Mr. John Yukon, Shoreline Outfitting

Q:              Okay, I’m with John Yukon of Shoreline Outfitting.

A:              Shoreline Outfitting, yeah.

Q:              John, what do you think are the reasons behind the decline in the number of
                guests to your lodge over the past five years? And actually I’m just looking at
                the—your results to—and I notice that it increased in – the number of guests
                increased in 2005 and remained unchanged over the previous four years. For a lot
                of lodges though it’s decreased. What do you think—what do you think of the
                reasons behind—that may be behind that?

A:              Well, for the reason I’m operating out of Great Bear Lake, there’s no road in or
                out and only by air [engine] by plane in the summertime and the reason been is
                the mainlander stops in Norman Wells, Yellowknife to location. And I believe a
                person has to drive up to the north to go fishing on Great Bear. They’ll drive up
                to Yellowknife possibly Fort Simpson and the high cost of charters, plane fare and
                there’s a lot of people want to fish but when you—when they find out the cost of
                getting into a small community on Great Bear, they kind of shy away because
                everything went up, like, you know, all the air fare has gone up, too, because of
                the high cost of fuel.

Q:              Okay. Anything—any political reasons or economic reasons that you’re aware of
                that may have affected business?

A:              Well, we’re not getting much support – because our clients or guests or—are not
                coming up here, some of their local out [of the Wells] come here for daily fishing
                and stuff like that and it’s not the—it’s not a—it’s just a day fishing, like they get
                in one day and go out—fly out the same night or—and we’re – I don’t have any
                marketing or anything like that. I think I got website out there. That’s all I go by.
                And my—and it’s pretty—it’s hard for—especially Deline because it’s isolated
                from everything else. But we get calls from people but as soon as they find out
                the price and the cost of traveling, it’s pretty high so—you know, they’re unable
                to do it. A lot of people are just local workers, wage earners like you and I. And
                they can’t pay—they like to go fishing but they’ve got a limited budget to do so,
                eh?

Q:              Okay. How do you think the industry’s participants – so how all the lodges and
                outfitters can work together to turn things around?

A:              Well, the other outfitters are probably doing good. I don’t know, they’re—like
                with the mainlander traveling under—up to their area but we’ve got—we got—we
                got Modess [ph] Outfitting here and Atanotom [ph] Outfitting for awhile. I don’t
                know whether they’re still in or not but we’ve got a Great Goose Lodge



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                         202
                Outfitting, which both the guys that promised to work with us but it didn’t turn
                out. They didn’t agree to their—to the agreement, eh? At one point, they—they-
                -I don’t know, we had two local, like I said—two local, three local outfitters but
                kind of—Great Goose kind of overtook everything, eh?

Q:              Okay. What are your thoughts, John, on a group purchasing organization for
                NWT fishing lodges and outfitters, so, for example, a body where you could
                group together and buy things such as insurance, and possibly food and other
                necessities for running your business?

A:              Well, for small people like me, I have no chance at all because, again, Great
                Goose is tied into Trophy Lodge and Plummer’s Lodge and whatever lodge they
                got around the Lake. I think Chummy Plummer’s the one managing all of it.

Q:              Okay. What do you—what are your thoughts though on buying your insurance, if
                you could get it from cheaper—if you could get it for less money by buying it
                through a group plan organized through NWT Tourism? Would you be interested
                in that?

A:              Well, it would help, like a group, I think. That would be the way to go like--but,
                you know, it’s just knowing the fact that we bought a lot of insurance. Like every
                year we buy insurance and stuff like that and we don’t get any activities. We
                don’t get any work and then we just purchase insurance—we still have to pay it.
                So a kind of setback for us but if you go through the group, like you just
                mentioned, I think it might work. We never—we never tried or we don’t – at
                least that’s worthwhile looking into it.

Q:              Okay. What type of outside support do you feel would assist the industry in
                reversing or slowing a decline in business?

A:              Well, I think it’s up to – like in the previous year – my clients were—my clients
                were guests like they all came from Canada – most of them came from Canada.
                And there was a group of three that flew in from the States that did a couple days
                fishing. So I’m not sure how like I can get more people up here. But again back
                to what I said before, I think everybody’s looking at the high cost up here and
                that’s where it’s at because I don’t think—I don’t think there’s anything else I can
                do about that.

Q:              What, in your opinion, can be done to help ease the high cost of doing business as
                a fishing outfitter in the Northwest Territories? What are your thoughts on what
                government can do or what can the industry participants themselves do?

A:              Well, if the government could give us a break in the fuel costs like farmers do,
                that might help a lot because that’s where all your revenue is going to, your fuel
                and, of course, your insurance. So I don’t—I don’t know anything else that could
                – I don’t think anything else that could be better because that’s where we’re at



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       203
                and I don’t think it’ll change unless, like I said, government could give us a
                discount on fuel like a farmer did—they do to farmers and, you know, that might
                help.

Q:              Okay. What kind of—what kind of support, if any, has your suppliers offered you
                in the past?

A:              What was that again?

Q:              What kind of support have any of your suppliers offered you in the past? Any
                suppliers that you use regularly that may have offered you discounts or
                opportunities to market to clients with them? Anything--?

A:              When you mention supplier, what do you—what do you kind of mean--?

Q:              I guess I mean your charter—the charter company you use, the fuel company you
                use, your insurance company, the boat company – the company you buy your
                boats and motors from? Have they offered you any support, anything like that?

A:              I think – no, no. I think if you do—you get a little bit of a discount on the boats
                and motor. I know that. But fuel, stuff like that, it’s just – the airline’s got to
                make money, too. They’re not going to come into your town making the even
                break. They’ve got to make their profit. So that’s – and even my—all the
                suppliers want to make money. And I’m not a very big outfit, too. I mean I’m
                just a small guy and, you know, I don’t do enough business for them to give me a
                break on anything.

Q:              Okay. What kind of assistance for marketing would you like to see from NWT
                Tourism?

A:              Oh, marketing is – whatever’s done. Like the last one, Great Goose [Outfitters
                was at] Calgary and they approached Great Goose with a lot of money to send a
                guy out there to do their marketing and had a booth there and nobody let—nobody
                even mentioned anything about that to me or Morris [ph] or the small guys. So I
                don’t know who was out.

Q:              And this—was this an NWT Tourism booth?

A:              Yeah, well, like I said, the—I don’t think anything can be done about that but I
                think marketing [indiscernible]. We didn’t even—had anything out there.

Q:              So better communication about marketing opportunities?

A:              Well, if Great Goose knew they were going out to do the marketing, they could
                have advised us and maybe gave a little information about our little outfitting but,
                again, we’re competing, too, in a way. So I don’t think that’d be possible.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       204
Q:              Okay. Have you had to shift your—do you do any advertising or any marketing,
                John?

A:              Well, not—not really marketing. I’ve got that little memo—little thing on the
                website and I think I’m on the—I put my name towards the ‘Exploration’, I think,
                the magazine.

Q:              Oh, ‘Explore NWT’?

A:              Yeah.

Q:              Okay.

A:              You know, all these—all these things come into play because everything costs
                and sometimes you don’t have the money to purchase all of that. So it’s not, you
                know—you do have some problems sometimes. You don’t have money; then you
                just let it slide.

Q:              Okay. Compared to how you market your fishing operation today, how do you
                see this changing in the future?

A:              Well, I think the way it is, is okay because I get phone calls from some people in
                the States. I got a couple of phone calls from the States and one from Red Deer
                and then Medicine Hat and places like that, Calgary. So, basically, they wanted
                information. And I just sent them information and then they realize the cost of
                coming up here. It’s awful lot. So—but what little I have, I think they—people
                get it on our website or magazine, eh? They give me a call for information about
                how much, you know, it would cost them to fish up here.

Q:              Okay. Are you going to change your services that you offer in the—in the next
                couple of years to broaden your customer base? Do you plan on expanding into
                anything other than what you do right now?

A:              Well, anytime, you know, you’re a small guy, you like to expand. But, again,
                we’re talking about money and you don’t have it. Then you can’t do anything
                about it.

Q:              Okay. What marketing strategies do you see from other companies you compete
                with that you feel do a really good job at attracting customers?

A:              Well, I don’t know very much about that really. There’s—like the magazine will
                usually phone up and, “I want to do this for you, here and there, to e-mail you,”
                and stuff like that. But, you know, you’ve got to be careful, too, because after
                you—all said and done, then they require money, too. So, I mean, that’s--.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      205
Q:              Yes. In your opinion, John, what other competitors, sport fishing outfitters and
                lodges that are in the Northwest Territories -- who do you think does a good job at
                attracting clients?

A:              Well, obviously, it’s Chummy Plummer’s because he’s got the – he’s well-known
                on Great Slave and Great Bear Lake and he’s got all the marketing done in a wide
                area, in the States. And all the—all the people that fish there, at his lodge, the
                story gets around and some of them just phone their friends and tell them about
                the fishing lodge at Plummer’s and stuff like that. So he’s pretty well known.
                And he’s associated with [inaudible] here and, like I said, he runs all the fishing
                lodges around the Lake. And he fills his main lodge first and the rest of that can
                get on the other lodges. So, he’s good but Plummer’s is in for Plummer’s, eh?

Q:              Okay. Have your clients been changing over the past few years in terms of their
                age or gender or where they come from?

A:              Well, I haven’t had—I had a couple of old guys from Wisconsin there a few years
                back and Montana – and Montana – and they’re up in the eighties but they’re just
                two individuals that came up here for a short time and then went back out again.
                And other than that, my age limit is pretty middle age -- above middle age. And
                there’s a couple that came up from – through [indiscernible] Norman Wells. They
                came out of Calgary and they took a couple—three days off and then came over
                here to do fishing and caught a plane back out. It worked out for them because of
                the—the trip to the Wells back are paid for, eh? The only thing they had to pay
                for is from the Wells to here and back and then the—and then their fishing fee and
                like they [go]. If they have to come from Calgary to here to fish, then they
                wouldn’t have done that.

Q:              Okay. In the past, John, did you own or operate your own aircraft?

A:              No. No. I--no.

Q:              Okay. How many—how many people do you employ each season?

A:              Just a family-run business, in all honesty, because I’m not big enough to – I end
                up doing it myself or if I’m at work, then one of the boys will handle that, eh?

Q:              So you—it’s your family?

A:              Yes, basically, yeah, that’s--.

Q:              You do all of the guiding and everything else?

A:              Yeah and I—like I’ve got—I’ve got a little shack or a little cabin about thirty
                miles from Deline there and I—just for a shelter, eh? It’s a twenty by thirty-two




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      206
                feet, two-bedroom house and it’s just for shelter. Well, it’s for a family but the
                people stay there to fish out of there.

Q:              Okay. Last question, John, what do you feel are the key ingredients to running a
                successful sport fishing operation?

A:              Well, if I can get new equipment—you know, you’ve got to have good
                equipment, new equipment. My equipment are pretty old and just for safety-wise,
                you know, you need better equipment and a good facility. And then you—once
                you’re set up with your good equipment, good facility, then you can advertise
                better or maybe marketing better because if you don’t have good facility, if you’re
                advertising your stuff and you have guests coming and you’ve got old things, and
                then that’s—you’re false advertise. You’re not telling the truth. You’ve got to
                watch that. That’s the reason they—I’ll kind of basically get them to phone me
                and tell them that—what I have.

Q:              Okay.

A:              And so all in better fishing boat and motors. That’s a top priority there.

Q:              Okay, thanks, John.

A:              Yeah.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        207
Interview with Mr. Lorne Cameron, Thubun Lake Lodge


Q:              Now. And I am with Lorne Cameron of Thubun Lake Lodge.

Lorne:          Correct.

Q:              And okay, great. Lorne, I wanted to ask you about the past five seasons. I'm just
                taking a look at one of your survey responses, and from 2000 to 2005 your annual
                revenue remained unchanged. What are the—what are your thoughts on the
                reasons behind this trend of no change year over year?

Lorne:          I was not actively promoting it at that time.

Q:              Okay.

Lorne:          I did not have time to put any more time and effort into it than what I could at that
                point in time. 2006 has seen a substantial increase in income, and I think we have
                60-some people went through the lodge.

Q:              Fantastic.

Lorne:          Which is an increase from prior years. It's just I had a little bit more time this
                year.

Q:              I'm just taking notes at the same time here. Okay. So you didn't notice any
                serious declines or considerable decreases in business during—

Lorne:          No, definitely not.

Q:              During one of those seasons?

Lorne:          No. You know, I should spend more time advertising and promoting the thing.
                And that's what I plan on doing in the future.

Q:              Okay. Is there anything that you think the industry's participants can do as a
                group to improve the industry?

Lorne:          You mean—okay—

Q:              I mean, is there any way that they can work together?

Lorne:          As a fishing industry?




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                            208
Q:              Yes. I mean, perhaps—your answer could be "no." I mean, because it is a very
                competitive industry. Are there—do you have any thoughts on anything that
                could be done as a group?

Lorne:          I would have to give that one some thought. At the present time, I just cannot
                think of anything that we could do as a group to increase the tourist trade in the
                fishing industry in the Northwest Territories.

Q:              All right. That's fair.

Lorne:          But I think maybe—and I talked to Donna [ph], someone from tourism, about
                some support for doing some TV shows at Thubun Lake that would be promoted
                worldwide, and big-time North American wide. And I still believe that that
                would do some good for the industry in general. But it's the cost that is pretty
                dramatic to get these boys in to do these fishing shows. You're looking at
                $10,000 to get them to come in plus airfares and expenses from Calgary or
                Winnipeg or wherever they come from, which is pretty major on an operation my
                size.

Q:              For sure.

Lorne:          So I would like for Northwest Tourism to maybe invest a little bit of money in
                promoting the industry. And I think with a bit of investment, they're going to get
                a very large return even though they may not realize it at the present time. But if
                we could run 30 or 40 episodes of half-hour fishing in the Northwest Territories,
                North American wide, I mean I know for a fact we'll get business.

Q:              Okay. What are your thoughts on a group purchasing organization for Northwest
                Territories fishing lodges and outfitters for things such as—well, specifically
                group liability, commercial liability insurance?

Lorne:          Yeah, that would be a good idea, because that cost me a lot of money every year.
                I spend between $4,000 and $5,000 a year—

Q:              Wow.

Lorne:          On insurance. And that's a pretty major expense. So yeah, that would be great if
                we could form an alliance and get teamed up and go in and approach these
                insurance companies and try and get a better rate.

Q:              Okay. What in your opinion, Lorne, can be done to help ease the high cost of
                doing business as a fishing lodge in the Northwest Territories? Is there anything
                that government can do? Is there anything you can think of the industry
                participants could do?




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        209
Lorne:          Yeah, actually I do have a couple comments on that one, because when I buy
                gasoline in Yellowknife for my fishing lodge, it is including road tax. And I tried
                to buy an off-road license in the Northwest Territories so I can buy tax-exempt
                gasoline for boat motors and power plants, and I cannot seem to get it. So I think
                the Territorial government should be providing that service to us. There's no
                reason that I should be paying road tax on this gasoline that I buy for the boats
                and the motors. Because when I've bought gasoline at Esso the end of May in
                bulk in my own drums, I was paying $1.25 a litre.

Q:              Wow.

Lorne:          I mean, that is pretty dramatic. And there should be about a $0.30 or $0.40
                reduction in that just on taxes.

Q:              Mm-hmm. Okay. Lodge gas—just writing this down—road tax exempt.

Lorne:          Yeah. It should be tax exempt for producing power and for boat motors. In
                Alberta, you can get an off-road exemption. Anybody that buys fuel to produce
                electricity, they don't pay all the taxes. And as far as a buying group for groceries
                and stuff, I don't think that would work.

Q:              Okay. Just because of the logistics and the different suppliers?

Lorne:          Yeah. I don't think that would be a major concern of mine.

Q:              Okay. What kind of support if any have your suppliers offered you in the past?
                Have you had any suppliers say to you, "You know, we realize the industry's
                going through tough times. We're going to extend your credit." Or have you had
                any airlines or air carriers—

Lorne:          No.

Q:              Offer you co-marketing opportunities?

Lorne:          No. And they're in the same business we are. It's tough and expensive doing
                business in the Territories. So—

Q:              For sure.

Lorne:          Like, Air Tindi, I deal with them a lot out of Yellowknife. Arctic Sunwest. And
                I've got a lot of respect for these guys because they do such a good job, and their
                costs are pretty dramatic as well, so. In fact, I had a meeting the last week of May
                with Peter at Air Tindi about it. About trying to keep the cost down.

Q:              Mm-hmm. What were his thoughts?




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        210
Lorne:          Well, his thoughts are extreme as well, eh?

Q:              Mm-hmm.

Lorne:          His labour costs and fuel costs, insurance costs. Since November, September 11,
                the industry, the insurance industry, has went up big time, eh?

Q:              Mm-hmm. Okay. So I've got—do you have any thoughts on new marketing
                initiatives for marketing the Northwest Territories as a region by NWT Tourism?
                Are there any types of new marketing initiatives you would like to see from a
                regional perspective?

Lorne:          Yes. Like I indicated, do a bunch—or—

Q:              Of sport fishing shows.

Lorne:          Sport fishing shows. That's going to draw people. That's going to draw lots—

Q:              So television—

Lorne:          Coverage.

Q:              Television coverage.

Lorne:          Yes. That's exposure that 99 percent of the people in the United States aren't
                aware of what is north of Canada. I mean, if you can get on these fishing
                shows—we get a lot of German tourists coming in Yellowknife. I've met quite a
                few of them. I've never had them at the lodge, but they're going into these more
                highly promoted lodges. Yeah.

Q:              Okay. Have you shifted your marketing or advertising plan in the past few years?

Lorne:          No, actually I haven't done much of anything on that because I've been such low
                key, time wise. But I plan to increase that in the future.

Q:              Okay. How do you see this—how do you see your marketing and promotion
                changing in the future?

Lorne:          Oh, do two or three trade shows. Yeah.

Q:              Are you going to be change—I noticed that 100 percent—80 to 100 percent of
                your clients come to fish. You are a—Thubun Lake is a fishing lodge. Are you
                going to change your product or service offerings in the next couple of years to
                broaden your customer base, or are you going to stay focused on fishing?




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      211
Lorne:          Well, I'm going to stay primarily focused on fishing, but at the same time there
                was discussions a year or so ago or two years ago about changing us all from
                fishing and outfitters to one classification so we could utilize the Americans and
                foreigners that wanted to shoot the odd bear. So it would be really simple if you
                would reclassify us all as fishing and outfitters. There is a small market for that,
                eh?

Q:              Mm-hmm.

Lorne:          And when they're in there fishing and they see some humongous black bears, I've
                had Americans want to know if they can shoot them, and I said, "Well, no. You
                can't." Because I'm not classified as an outfitter. So that's something that for
                simplicity reasons the Territorial government should maybe reclassify us all as
                one classification, rather than have it all separate.

Q:              So right now you are classified—Thubun Lake is classified—

Lorne:          As a fishing lodge.

Q:              As a fishing lodge. Okay.

Lorne:          Yeah. And I think in order to be bringing in a client in to shoot a black bear,
                you'd have to be classified as an outfitter.

Q:              Okay. What marketing strategies have you seen, Lorne, that you feel are superior
                in attracting the sport fishing market? Is there anything that you've seen done by
                your competitors as far as their marketing goes that makes you—that impresses
                you? That you know is effective at getting sport fishing customers?

Lorne:          I cannot say that I—there's one thing that would be better than anything else. I
                think you've got to show them visually. Give them lots of pictures to [quirk] their
                interest. You need pictures of big fish. You need lots of photographs on your
                web sites to keep promoting this, eh?

Q:              Are there any competitors that come to your mind that you feel do an effective job
                at attracting the sports fisherman from a marketing perspective?

Lorne:          Maybe on the big lake, Plummer's.

Q:              Plummer's? Okay.

Lorne:          Because they've got a pretty extensive budget for advertising.

Q:              Anybody else?

Lorne:          No. Not really. Not that I can think of right now.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                         212
Q:              Okay. How have your clientele changed demographically, if they've changed at
                all, since you've been running your lodge? Can you tell me a little bit about your
                clientele? How old are they? Where are they from generally? Their gender? Are
                they traveling on a business-friendly trip, or are they—is [it] family or friends?

Lorne:          It's 99 percent male, and probably 60 percent are over the age of 45. Nobody
                travels up there on business. It's strictly on entertainment, I guess is what you'd
                call it, for fishing purposes.

Q:              But I mean—sorry, are they corporate groups? Are they—?

Lorne:          No, I don't have any corporate groups. I have primarily repeat customers.

Q:              Okay. In the past, did you ever own or operate your own aircraft to service your
                lodge?

Lorne:          No, I have not.

Q:              Okay. Have the regulation changes from Canadian—from the Canadian
                Transport Authority restricting lodge owners from owning and operating their
                own planes—have any changes from the Canadian Transport Authority—

Lorne:          Affected us? No.

Q:              Affected you? No?

Lorne:          No.

Q:              Okay. How many people do you employ during the season?

Lorne:          Just me. I'm the slave.

Q:              Wow. That's for sure. With 60 people going through, that's amazing. Good for
                you.

Lorne:          [No.]

Q:              Okay. Well, I won't ask you to describe your typical employee. This is not a
                counseling session. And last question, what do you feel are the key ingredients to
                running a successful sport fishing operation?

Lorne:          Oh, having good fishing. If you've got good fishing, you can kind of sneak by on
                a lot of other things. But if you don't have good fishing, your clientele is going to
                disappear, no matter if you've got a fancy five-star hotel or whatever you've got.
                They come to fish. Everything else is secondary.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                         213
Interview with Mr. Bob Huitikka, Tukto Lodge

Q:              Okay, here we go. I’m with Bob Huitikka of Tukto Lodge. Bob, what do you
                think are the reasons behind the decline in the number of guests to your lodge
                over the past five years? And actually I’ll just rephrase the question because I
                notice that over the past two seasons, it is not—it’s remained unchanged but it
                decreased from 2003 to 2002 and the year prior as well. What do you think the
                reasons are behind that decline and I guess the slow recovery recently?

A:              Well, I think a lot of it is the U.S. economy and the clients that we target for
                fishing are older clients and are—[worst times] have sold their business and had
                investments and after 911 or after the stock market was—went down. Then their
                investments weren’t worth the money – used to be on their dividends and so they
                weren’t—didn’t have the money to go on those kind of vacations. And a lot of
                people had to go to work and the economy, too. Also people that had businesses
                and they couldn’t afford these high-end trips into those areas. They just didn’t
                have the income and the revenues to do it. And I think it’s lost—it wasn’t really
                911 but it was about the time of 911 when the stock markets changed. And then
                just the general economy, I think, with General Motors and all the other large
                corporations or lay-offs and small business that contributed to large industry, their
                income and their revenues are down.

Q:              Okay. How do you think the industry’s participants can work together to turn
                things around and slow or reverse such a decline in business?

A:              Well, I think—I think probably looking at maybe European markets, maybe
                Japanese, still looking at the U.S. but maybe more – a lot more exposure for the
                tourism to expose out there for us that there is—I think there’s a lot of money out
                there yet but just have to target those people or have a lot more exposure so that
                people will recognize that we are up there and the tourism values are up there for
                eco-tourism or fishing.

Q:              Okay. What are your thoughts on a group purchasing organization for NWT
                fishing lodges and outfitters for things such as liability insurance?

A:              Well, that would be great. It would—anything to cut the cost of operating down,
                that would be great.

Q:              Okay. What type of outside support do you feel would assist the industry in
                reversing or slowing the decline?

A:              Well, I think, talking to some of my clients through the U.S. and just kind of, in
                general conversation with them – and they feel that people like in the cities, coast
                and places like that, Philadelphia and New York, they don’t really hear much of
                Nunavut and Northwest Territories and the northern part of Canada and probably



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        214
                northern Ontario, whereas you can go into media channels on TV and a lot of—a
                lot of exposure of Alaska. They push Alaska a lot. And there’s commercials and
                tourism; there’s a lot more magazine ads and stuff like that. We don’t have
                exposure—I guess, they don’t see much of the Northwest Territories or Nunavut
                and some of it’s just basically maybe in some sport magazines like in ‘Fisherman’
                or something would have articles about it. So they don’t--they’re not even aware
                of it up there. And I think if there was more awareness maybe it would make us –
                I think it would make a big difference.

Q:              Okay. What, in your opinion, can be done to help ease the high costs of doing
                business as a fishing lodge in the—in the Northwest Territories? Is there anything
                that you can think of that government can do or that industry can do?

A:              Well, I think—I think maybe even just some gas rebates. I know they’re doing
                some for the mining industry up there, rebates on fuel tax for us because fuel is
                one of the largest—the largest overhead right now, in the last couple years,
                continuously increasing. Of course, insurance has taken a huge jump. If we
                could buy group insurance that would help but I think—I think fuel is one thing
                because everybody has to transport something. There are people so far from
                Saskatoon or Edmonton or from Winnipeg to get up in that area. And this cost
                factor of the floatplanes and just take the charter airlines that we have to use.

Q:              Okay. What kind of support, if any, have your suppliers offered you in the past –
                co-marketing opportunities as an example?

A:              None of—none that I can recall. You know if we—everything we do, we’ve got--
                the chamber of commerce was a fairly good one. But there was—there was a
                price they had, too. And not knowing that we might get something out of it or
                not, it was hard to track if we did.

Q:              Okay. What kind of assistance from marketing would you like to see from NWT
                Tourism?

A:              Well, I think some of the things they’ve done already is good. It’s the—some of
                the—you know, some of the refund on it. Another one they could do is – I know
                Ontario had a number of years ago, probably going back ten – fifteen years ago, is
                that if you spend X number of dollars on marketing, they would—they would pay
                40 percent of it or, you know, 50 percent of it or 30 percent of it. And that was
                very – they did that for about eight years. So if you wanted to—redo your
                website or a new brochure or sports shows or TV ads, and you spend $20,000,
                then the government would maybe help out with $5,000 or $7,000 worth of grant
                money, which people went out and marketed and [did a]--and that was one way
                that really I think it helped Ontario when they were in a—in a—you know, they
                were trying to get tourism up. Then the Ontario government – I’m just kind of
                recalling what – being in Ontario for twenty-five years and tourism, you know,
                the Ontario government themselves spent a lot of money on tourism and these



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       215
                were some of the incentives. And I think they did that avenue along with just
                more exposure in the U.S. on, you know, TV or magazine ads and stuff.

Q:              Okay. What types of new marketing initiatives would you like to see from a
                regional perspective – so new branding initiatives; anything in terms of specific to
                the Northwest Territories?

A:              I think eco-tourism is big. The winter business is good. I know I’ve talked to
                Webber’s a little bit and they seem to do very well with eco-tourism with the
                Belukha whales and the polar bears and still getting fairly – work with some
                airlines and fairly expensive airfares to get into Yellowknife and where he worked
                that was a hump there to get out and just even some of the winter—winter
                activities that are up there, you know a part of caribou migration and—I think
                eco-tourism is a good way to go.

Q:              So new initiatives in those two areas?

A:              Yeah and fishing. I know anytime I look at the magazines these guys have put
                out, these guys have done some awesome, awesome, you know, photography,
                which is unbelievable and really, I think, would be very attractive to people and,
                you know, it’s just—it’s not just the fishing but everything, I mean, the northern
                lights, the wildlife, you know, the terrain and everything.

Q:              Okay. Have you had to shift your marketing—advertising and marketing plan in
                the past few years to address the shift in the market?

A:              I haven’t but I should be, I think. We did a couple years ago. We did—we redid
                our website and tried to, you know—gave it a whole new website and spent
                money on that and then spending quite a bit of money right now even on
                dispositioning – getting good positioning so that people can find us out there. But
                I haven’t gone out after eco-tourism or the—or the European or Japanese market
                at all, which I maybe—I probably should be going to now.

Q:              Okay. One moment please. Compared to how you market your fishing operation
                today – I guess you just pretty much answered this – how do you see this
                changing in the future?

A:              I think it’s going to come around. I feel this year talking to other people at the
                last trade show in Minneapolis that the inquiries were way down from before.
                They weren’t—you know, the e-mails, the phone, old customer inquiries, they
                were down and nobody could point their finger for what—for what reason but
                it—we’re picking up a lot more stuff in this last while now, even last-minute
                bookings. But earlier it was—it wasn’t—we don’t see a lot of inquiries, [even if
                they book], you know—inquiries for the last—this year, it’s been really slow. So
                I think—I think for us, we’ll probably keep doing what we can and do as many




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       216
                contacts with old customers and maybe do a few more different shows or
                something like that.

Q:              Okay. Now when you say the consensus was that inquiries were down when
                speaking to people at these trade shows, were these other Northwest Territories
                lodges and outfitters?

A:              Yes. Yeah.

Q:              Okay.

A:              The hunting seems to be – the people that have the hunting for some reason have
                done better even in the Denver show. The Territory people did – they seemed to
                have done well on the hunts. But the fishing was slow, you know, as far as
                inquiries and the bookings on the fishing, which have been slow for.

Q:              Okay. Are you going to be changing your product service offerings in the next
                couple of years to broaden your customer base or are you going to stick with what
                you—what you’re doing?

A:              I think I’m going to stick with it, maybe tie in with the East Coast a little bit more,
                on some trade shows and—there’s some that we’ll drop because they haven’t
                done good.

Q:              Okay. What marketing strategies from competitors and competitive destinations
                do you fee are superior in attracting the sport fishing market? You did mention
                Alaska.

A:              I think what Alaska was doing was—have been talking to people that are down in
                the U.S. saying that they, you know--we talked to one and they said that definitely
                other than sports shows, there is not a representation for the Northwest Territory
                lodges and just the Northwest Territory as a whole is tourism and eco-tourism and
                stuff. There just isn’t a lot—a lot of exposure whereas you can always find
                something and hear about or read about Alaska. And then people are just—so
                they sort of gravitated to go there, which is a nice [draw]--beautiful area to go
                to—go to.

Q:              Okay. In your opinion, what competitive sport fishing destinations – so what –
                which of your competitors do you feel do a really effective job at attracting clients
                from a marketing perspective?

A:              You mean as far as other lodges go?

Q:              Yes. So what lodges out there do you admire in terms of their marketing
                perspective, do you feel that do a really good job?




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                          217
A:              None right at Territory—well, I’ll say Lake Lodge.

Q:              Pardon me?

A:              In Saskatchewan. And I’m thinking—I think Webber’s, of course, used to be in
                NWT there I think in Nunavut. Now [it’s in by] Churchill, wherever his lodge is.
                I was going to say Plummer’s used to do good but, apparently, I heard that they
                were quite a bit down on their bookings this year. So [whatever] they’re doing or
                not, you know, it’s not really working for them. And I just can’t think of anyone
                really, offhand, that I would like to get on track with it and say they’re doing a
                hell of a job. I can’t really think of anybody right now.

Q:              Okay. And as far as your clients go, how are your clientele changing
                demographically, if they’ve changed at all – I’m sorry – in terms of age, ethnic
                background, origin, gender, whether they’re traveling more with family or on
                business?

A:              Yeah. I think a lot of ours is age. I mean some of them have passed on. Some of
                them are just—they’re too old. I know when they retired, they sold their business.
                There was—some of the things they wanted to do was fish the Arctic, eh? Some
                of these people have been with me a couple or three times and then their age kind
                of got to where they were having health problems. So, basically, some of them
                even told me that they just didn’t want to be caught up there with, you know, a
                heart attack or a stroke. It was just too remote. So they’ve backed off and done
                things. And I—and I think there’s a lot of things out there when families get
                involved and there’s only a certain sector of money that they have—a portion of
                money they have for recreation or vacations.

                And there’s—you know, we’re competing with, you know, cruises or [playing at]
                Vegas, golf and ski resorts. We’re, you know, competing with--you know, like
                Alaska—Alaska’s exposures. Well, you just think of, you know, even just say
                Disneyworld. I mean, you know, I could go back twenty years and casinos –
                there wasn’t hardly any casinos. And cruise ships – there’s probably five times
                more cruise ships. There was—I do a lot of downhill skiing. I’ve been to
                Colorado, B.C. and the skiing resorts are unbelievable. They’re building huge
                resorts and stuff. So people are going there. And maybe they’re—anyway
                they’re just not into the hard fishing that used to be.

                And I guess one thing we need to do, too, is keep the fishing – sport fishing – very
                exposed so that we get younger people coming in or when people get in their
                thirties and forties when they can afford these trips, if they’ve ever fished in their
                life, they might not even—not even be gravitated to say, “Let’s go fishing,”
                because they’ve been into sailing or golfing or skiing and they’ve got other
                recreation because there’s a lot more out there and I think a lot more to be found
                on the Internet now compared to say even ten years ago because the web is—you
                get on the web and say I want to do whatever you want in the world, people will



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                         218
                find everything they need right on the—right on the Internet. And if it’s
                something in Europe or if it’s something in, you know, Alaska or something in
                Montana or the Grand Canyon, they could just find it – all the different adventure
                things.

                I just had one client yesterday phone me. He’d been with me for ten years in a
                row. He’s going to Russia and in that area doing a kind of a very unique
                extraordinary trip, which very seldom they can even get on to do it. And he found
                that out. He’s going to do that one this year instead of coming with me.

                So there’s a—there’s a lot of things, I mean. I’m going back a few years ago
                when I had people that fished with me, they went to the North Pole for New
                Year’s and, you know, with a twin otter with, I think, guys out of Western
                Canada, there – Bouraq [ph]—Bouraq Air. They do those trips up there. So
                there’s a—there’s a lot more things for people to do. There’s no—there’s no
                doubt about it. But we need to keep that sport fishing alive out there so we can,
                you know, track people – younger people – and keep younger people in it.

Q:              Okay. In the past, did you own or operate your own aircraft to service your lodge
                and did – if so, did the regulations from the Canadian Transport Authority – the
                changes after 911 restricting lodge owners from owning and operating their
                planes affect your operation?

A:              No. No. I’ve been—I’ve been in aviation for thirty-six years. I’ve been a pilot
                for thirty-six years. I’ve owned a charter air service for twenty-five years. The
                only thing is—what has changed that would have been the high insurance cost.
                And if you had an airplane and you didn’t have the experience level or the time on
                type, they would have not insured you or possibly the rates were so costly that
                people just said they couldn’t afford to have their own aircraft to charter their
                work at the camp. So then they’re looking at outside charters. And we’ve had to
                go up in our rates, too. I have a fleet of six airplanes and we do charter work.
                And it’s getting expensive because our insurance is—insurance and, of course,
                now fuel is high.

                But as far as the government restricting use of airplanes for charter – restricted
                charters for lodges, that hasn’t changed at all—at all but it’s just—it’s just the cost
                of operating probably.

Q:              Okay. How many people do you employ each season?

A:              In the Arctic?

Q:              Yes.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                          219
A:              Between – in Northwest Territories probably eight and then Nunavut, I’ve got the
                camps on Dubawnt. It’s all the same organization – probably another four or five
                over there – five over there.

Q:              Okay. Can you just tell me a bit about your typical employee? Are they from the
                Northwest Territories, not from the NWT? Are they students working for the
                summer, from eighteen to twenty-two years old? Are they seasonal workers from
                Edmonton in their forties? What’s—just tell me a bit about your typical
                employee.

A:              Well, we have—we have some students. We have some Ontario people who
                worked for me in Ontario. They’ll come up and also work. And then the rest are
                seasonal people in the industry but from Saskatchewan, Manitoba and B.C. and
                Alberta where they’ll – and some from Ontario – where they’ll be working at a
                fishing or hunting lodge for May and June. But it’s their soft time in July and
                August. So they come with me and I’ve had some people now eight or ten years
                with me. And then they go back and do their fall moose and bear hunts. So it’s a
                good feeling that I have the same people coming back that way. So I’m – staffing
                hasn’t been a problem as far as getting people to work and then – and quality
                people.

Q:              So you did not have any serious challenges in the area of employee hiring or
                retention?

A:              No. And some are farmers that farm and I’m drawing from a quite a few people
                where sometimes they can’t come for two months or say seven weeks. But they
                come in for three weeks or two weeks and sometimes, I only need extra people for
                a short period. So it’s nice to be able to bring somebody in that’s been there and
                knows the lake and knows the operation. So they can come in and guide for two
                weeks and go out. There’s no training involved.

Q:              Sure. What do you feel is the key ingredients, Bob, to running a successful
                fishing operation?

A:              Well, I think you need to know a little bit of everything, I think. I guess you need
                to know marketing. You need a certain amount of business experience, a
                background on business and then--and then being able to do a lot of those little
                trade jobs as you do if there’s carpentry or fixing an outboard motor or general
                repairs on a lodge, if it’s, you know, plumbing and stuff like that because you
                can’t afford to hire everybody for a certain job. You need to be a kind of a jack of
                all trades, not licensed or real experienced but you have to be capable of working
                with your hands and then still being very personable with people and just be able
                to, you know, really go along and give the service. We are in a service business.
                I think that’s—what really becomes number one is giving the service and having
                people come back. And that’s—our backbone is just catering to them really good




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       220
                and it’s—and it’s a team effort when it comes down to that, you know, guides and
                expeditors and everything. It’s the service that really helps.

Q:              Okay.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                   221
Interview with Mr. Paul Boucher, Tu-Nedhe Tours


Interviewer:    I’m here with Mr. Paul Boucher of Tu-Nedhe Tours, and Paul, what do you think
                are the reasons behind your business revenue remaining unchanged over the past
                two seasons?

Paul Boucher: Well, I’m finding that the biggest hurdle for me is the marketing aspect because
              of funding issues. And the issue that I need resolved is to ensure that—I need
              assistance, I guess, from the different people that are involved at a territorial or
              national level of how are they going to help small outposts such as outfitters like
              myself to, I guess, to get a return out of getting into the business of tourism.

Interviewer:    Okay. How do you think the industry’s participants, if you think they can do this
                at all, how do you think they could work together to improve business for the
                industry?

Paul Boucher: Well, one of the things, I feel anyway, is communication is an issue for me. You
              know, I’ve talked to only a few people in terms of the NW Tourism Association. I
              don’t know all the—who the members are. I don’t know who the actual directors
              are. I just know Ray Simon, who’s a member, who is a partner of mine, but I
              haven’t met anybody else. So, I don’t know who’s who, and it seems at this point
              now government has changed departments again. So, it seems like who do we
              contact now? When we phone government, it’s like five or six people that we
              have to go through in order to get to the right person. I feel that is just inadequate
              right now.

Interviewer:    Okay. What are your thoughts, Paul, on a group purchasing organization for NWT
                fishing lodges and outfitters for things such as group liability insurance? Is that
                something you would support?

Paul Boucher: Well, one of the things right now is if I can get that. I think there is a plan in place
              like that, but the insurance company says, “Well, even though you operate
              seasonally, you still have to pay for the whole year.” And to me that’s a problem.
              Like, I have to dish out, you know, $1300 to $1800 a year just for three months of
              operation, but it lasts throughout the whole year.

Interviewer:    If you could buy that for less by buying—

Paul Boucher: If I can buy that for a six-month period, I’ll be happy.

Interviewer:    So, you would be—you would not be opposed to a group purchasing organization,
                a body where other lodges and outfitters would purchase insurance from—




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                         222
Paul Boucher: If we can form our own like what the farmers did in the South, like the
              cooperatives, or something like that, that would be more helpful.

Interviewer:    So, you would not be opposed to that concept?

Paul Boucher: No, no. Actually, I think that would be very helpful.

Interviewer:    Okay. What type of outside support do you feel would assist the industry in
                improving business? What from government, specifically, can you think of right
                now that--?

Paul Boucher: Well, I think, like I said, there needs to be a lot better liaison, I guess, with—I
              don’t know if that’s the correct terminology, but that’s and for lack of a better
              term, I’ll use it. We need someone there to ensure that we can liaison with
              different groups and different people. And also outside of the country, I don’t
              know who to contact. There’s no—there may be marketing companies out there
              that we may be able to get a hold of, like, for example, in Germany or Japan or—.
              I don’t know the process of getting hold of these people. I’d have to go through
              the Internet and look for it, but if there’s someone there that could look after
              marketing, and I say ‘cause this is a hotbed for fishermen to come up here, those
              people that are interested in ecotourism or culture inclusion, you know, you may
              market in this area. But right now we don’t have that, and I think there needs to be
              that, I guess, that liaison person in the middle for specifically on marketing.

Interviewer:    What, in your opinion, can be done to help ease the high cost of doing business as
                a fishing lodge in the Northwest Territories? Is there anything you can think of
                that government can do, that the industry can do?

Paul Boucher: I think it’s more of assisting the lodge and the outfitters with marketing. I think,
              you know, we all do our own marketing. We have our own websites and stuff like
              that but you know those are very costly, and if we can somehow bring it together
              and link to maybe to one webpage as an opportunity, then I think we may be able
              to get further ahead.

Interviewer:    Okay. What type of support, if any, have your suppliers offered you in the past
                few years? Have there been any co-marketing opportunities, any special
                discounts?

Paul Boucher: Well, 10% off the marketing of putting an ad into different magazines or—like,
              the Explorer Guide and stuff. I know those cost money and there is a percentage
              off, but 10% is just not—is still a lot of money at 90%, I guess, if I pay $90. Say,
              $100 for an ad, and then they charge me $90, it’s still quite high. And I
              understand that there is costs for these Exploration Guide. I mean, these Guides
              for Tourism, I know there’s costs and that but somehow we need to streamline
              that.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      223
Interviewer:    Okay. What kind of assistance for marketing would you like to see from NWT
                Tourism?

Paul Boucher: Well, one of the things I would like to do is that if I can get help in designing a
              website or a linkage to a website that would assist me in getting in touch with
              clients that’ll be very, very helpful. And I think that they need to expand in the
              area of the small businesses. The small operators in the North, I don’t think we
              are accommodated as much as the larger operators in the North.

Interviewer:    Okay. What types of new marketing initiatives would you like to see from a
                regional perspective? So, when it comes to branding NWT as a place for tourists,
                what new ways would you like to see it promoted?

Paul Boucher: Well, one of the things I find is that fishing is becoming an older, I guess, the
              older people are mostly coming, the older people, but we need to somehow attract
              the younger generation into, you know, how do we attract them to the sport of
              fishing? That’s something that we may need to look at. Also, I know ecotourism
              is huge in the North, and the question is if those—if ecotourism a lot of people are
              interested in it, then we may have to have a voice in how do we protect these
              sensitive ecosystems that we have intact right now? For example, you know,
              promoting the Great Slave Lake and watersheds that go into it is one of the five
              remaining ecosystems in the world that’s intact. You know, we need to maybe
              market that. Maybe this is a world heritage area.

Interviewer:    I see. Okay. I’m just taking notes here. Just bear with me, please. Have you had to
                shift your marketing or advertising plan in the past few years for any--?

Paul Boucher: Right now, it’s word of mouth, flyers. I don’t have the money that I need to
              continue my website. It’s very expensive to run those things and to get those, but
              it would be nice to keep that going. I think for the first five years, I would need
              assistance in ensuring that I could have my website linked to something and also
              continue to run.

Interviewer:    Okay. Compared to how you market your fishing operation today, how do you see
                this changing in the future?

Paul Boucher: Well, I’m hoping to gear it as where I could link to different websites across the
              world. If I could link to Germany or Japan into the southern states or wherever, or
              even to Europe, we can link to that and have some kind of motto that reflects
              everybody or reflects different activities that we have in the North for tourism that
              may help a lot.

Interviewer:    Okay. Are you going to be changing your product or service offerings in the next
                couple of years to broaden your customer base?




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       224
Paul Boucher: Well, I offer—at least four things I offer, ecotourism, sport fishing, culture
              inclusion, sight seeing. I offer those as possible areas of inviting people and
              hopefully getting clientele.

Interviewer:    Are you planning on extending beyond those four course offerings?

Paul Boucher: I hope so, yes, if I can be successful in what I’m doing right now. I can’t expand
              if I’m not successful in what I’m doing right now.

Interviewer:    Okay. What marketing strategies, Paul, from competitive destinations do you feel
                are superior in attracting the sport fishing market? Is there anything, any type of
                marketing that any of your competitors out there are doing that you would like to
                do one day?

Paul Boucher: Well, I’d like to see, you know, one of the things I think the North really needs is
              we are not marketed enough. We’re very weak in marketing, and I’d love to see
              on National television after a hockey game or after a baseball game or something
              or during a baseball game or hockey game, you know, a commercial about the
              North. You know, the potential for coming to the North, and I think we have to
              base it on attractions rather than promotion. What is going to attract people to our
              North, to the Northwest Territories? What is going to attract them? And to me, it
              is, you know, this is one of the five last remaining ecosystems intact in the world.
              Come and see it. Let’s see how we could protect it.

Interviewer:    In your opinion, what competitive sport fishing destinations—so what other
                lodges out there do an effective job at attracting sport fishermen from a marketing
                perspective?

Paul Boucher: You know, I have no idea. I haven’t met those other operators.

Interviewer:    Okay.

Paul Boucher: The only ones I’ve met is the one with, the ones around FortRes, and they have
              a—they’ve been having clientele on a regular basis. So, I’m not too—you know, I
              don’t know what the other people are doing. I have no idea.

Interviewer:    Okay. How long has your business been around?

Paul Boucher: I’ve been around for the last three. This is the third summer.

Interviewer:    Third summer. Congratulations. Third’s a charm. Third time is a charm, they say.

Paul Boucher: I sure hope so because everybody makes the commitment and when it comes
              down to actually coming—the only time I believe it is when they’re at my front
              door and [Ken], let’s go fishing.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       225
Interviewer:    Right. I’ve been there. I understand.

Paul Boucher: Yes.

Interviewer:    Okay. So, I’ll just skip this question. Is it just yourself, Paul, that runs the
                company, or do you employ anybody right now?

Paul Boucher: I have a partner.

Interviewer:    Okay.

Paul Boucher: Yeah. We have three boats and we kind of call it extreme fishing, or we just go
              out and set up our tents at the same time and go fishing on our way back again.
              We don’t have an actual outpost camp. We have destinations where we can camp
              for a few days here and there and be back again.

Interviewer:    Last question. What in your opinion do you feel are the key ingredients to running
                a successful sport fishing operation?

Paul Boucher: Clarity. Clarity in terms of what are the rules of the land and what are the rules of
              the water. Right now, we have negotiations of treaty and other claims in our area.
              There needs to be clear, a clear picture.

Interviewer:    Is it causing difficulties for you?

Paul Boucher: Not really, but we really don’t know what the playing rules are. We need to make
              sure that the rules are clear and ensure that everybody’s clear and there is
              agreement of how tourism is going to be managed in the future. So, there is
              conflict with traditional users. So, that’s an area that I’m quite concerned about,
              and there needs to be some kind of balance.

Interviewer:    Okay.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                          226
Interview with Mr. Gordon Gin, Yellow Dog Lodge

Q:              Okay. I’m with Mr. Gordon Gin, owner of Yellow Dog Lodge, previously known
                as Pilote Point Lodge. Gordon, what do you think are the reasons behind a
                decline in the number of guests to Northwest Territories fishing lodges over the
                past five years?

                Now normally I would ask what are the reasons behind the decline in the number
                of guests to your lodge but you’ve just purchased this lodge. And, also, I’m
                looking at the response to a similar question in the survey, which was answered
                by the owners, the previous owners, and they saw a decrease in the 2001 season,
                an increase in the next year and then it remained unchanged ever since. So things
                have been fairly stable there, however, it has been a difficult time for others. Do
                you have any thoughts as to why?

Gordon Gin: Well I think the events of September 11, 2001, put everybody on alert, especially
            the American crowd. There has been several rules put in place for immigration
            and going across the border. And I know that first hand because I operate in the
            United States under a TN visa. And it’s been increasingly difficult to renew that
            visa year after year.

                Combined with the regulations by the American and the Canadian governments to
                have passports for all of the American citizens coming up into Canada as well as
                reciprocal of Canadian’s going down into the United States has maybe put a
                damper on things. I feel that the Americans might be more comfortable going up
                to Alaska versus up into Canada.

Q:              Okay. Now I’m just going to ask you again any, because I believe that these
                changes to the border crossings and requiring a passport, those are going to come
                into play in the future, but they have not had an effect in the past five years or
                have they?

Gordon Gin: They have because the American public are unaware of the rules and regulations.
            They can hear things on the radios and the media and I get questions all the time,
            “Do I need a passport?” And I respond, “No, you don’t need a passport until
            2007. And that’s for the air transportation. If you’re coming across by ground,
            you don’t need one until 2008.” But the American people do not know this and
            they feel that they have to have a passport going outside the country.

Q:              Okay. Thank you. Gordon, how do you think the industry’s participants, so all of
                the lodges and outfitters in the NWT, how do you think they can work together to
                improve business and slow or reverse a decline in business over the past five
                years?




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      227
Gordon Gin: Well since I’m brand new to the industry, I don’t have that many thoughts on how
            things can improve. I’m hoping that over the next year or two, after I get by my
            rookie season, that I can start to expand it and make a difference within the
            industry.

                Looking at the other websites, other competitors, I think the rates are fairly stable
                throughout. There is not a competitive advantage one over the other. But I think
                if the, I guess, the lodges get together and market as an entity rather than
                individual lodges that might be of assistance in bringing the awareness to the
                Northwest Territories, in particular, to the Yellow knife region.

Q:              Okay. And I’m aware that some of these questions may be, not inappropriate, but
                definitely not something that you would have an experienced opinion on because
                you’re just getting into the business, just having purchased this lodge. But I
                appreciate any thoughts you do have.

                Okay. So next question, what are your thoughts on a group purchasing
                organization for NWT fishing lodges and outfitters, in particular, well to keep it
                simple, for something like liability insurance? Would you support that?

Gordon Gin: If there is a—I guess after going through the process of shopping around for an
            insurance broker, I found it very difficult to work with a couple of the insurance
            brokers in the industry. One, in particular, was not very helpful. They’re out of
            Edmonton. I’m not going to name names. So I’ve chosen to go to an insurance
            broker somewhere else.

                I think the insurance brokers, there is such a wide range of fees and rules and
                regulations. If we could standardize or something similar for all lodges, there
                must be a standard form that you can fill out, and all the lodges are graded on the
                same thing.

                And the liability insurance as well as the other insurance, the equipment insurance
                and fire insurance and everything, could be standardized and come back to a
                logical point where it could be just out of the can where somebody, like myself,
                puts down my criteria, fills out a form and, within a day or two, gets an insurance
                quote.

                And I’m hoping that a group type of arrangement would facilitate that even more.
                So to make the story short is I’d like to see more of a cookie cutter approach
                where you fill out a form and apply for your insurance, say, online.

Q:              So, in conclusion, if you were to receive liability insurance and it was at a better
                price, do you have any opposition to participating in a group policy?

Gorgon Gin: No, none whatsoever. Like I said, I saw quite a big swing in insurance, up to
            $2,000 difference, over $2,000 difference in one case.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                         228
Q:              Okay. What type of outside support, Gordon, do you feel would assist the
                industry in reversing or slowing a decline in business for the industry, in
                particular what sort of government support?

Gordon Gin: Well I’d like to see some more, because I’m a startup, I’d like to see some more
            incentives for startup corporations to begin the business. I checked into some
            government grants through Industry Tourism Investment and I was told quite
            frankly that they wouldn’t consider me until I had at least one year under my belt.

                And that was kind of discouraging because a lot of the other lodges in the area do
                apply and receive quite a few incentives to participate in the industry. So I’d like
                to see a program where a new business owner comes in the Northwest Tourism
                helps them out, helps them get started in the form of government grants or loan
                guarantees or somewhat in that regards.

                The other thing I’d like to see is more marketing assistance. I think there’s a great
                market here in the United States. I reside here in Colorado. And I believe my
                marketplace is the Rocky Mountain States including Colorado, Utah, Montana,
                Wyoming, all the way down to Arizona. And I think with more marketing funds
                it would allow operators to participate in more outdoor shows, which would
                translate into more exposure for the Canadian Tourism industry.

Q:              Okay. What, in your opinion, can be done, if anything, that you can think of, to
                help ease the high cost of doing business as a fishing lodge in the Northwest
                Territories? Is there anything the government can do? Do you have any thoughts
                on what the industry can do?

Gordon Gin: Well with the high cost of fuel, operating fuel, for electrical generation as well as
            running the motors and the small engines around the lodge, some sort of incentive
            to go to an alternative fuel such as solar or wind power or fuel cell energy. I am
            considering going to an alternate power source next year but I haven’t found any
            government grants or Canadian government grants.

                Down here in Colorado the U.S. government or the state governments subsidies a
                homeowner up to $20,000 in installing a solar energy system. Now, down here, I
                can install a 3500 watt system for less than $20,000 American. Yet, up in
                Canada, the same system, especially in the North, would probably run me $50,000
                to $60,000. And I’d like to see some sort of incentive to get us off of fossil fuels
                and on to some alternative fuels.

Q:              Okay. I’m just taking notes here. Okay. Thank you. What kind of support, if
                any, have your suppliers offered you in the past? Now, perhaps I should just
                move on from this question, but…

Gordon Gin: Okay.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        229
Q:              Let’s do that. I don’t think I’ve heard any examples of support. That’s a pretty
                straightforward relationship with suppliers. What kind of assistance for
                marketing, Gordon, would you like to see for NWT Tourism?

Gordon Gin: I would like to see NWT come up with maybe some graphic artists that would
            assist the lodges putting together the materials. It’s nice to have cash all the time
            but it’s also good to have an education and some assistance from the other side of
            the business and, maybe, marketing brochures, some assistance in putting together
            marketing campaigns, maybe putting on a marketing course or subsidizing some
            of the owners to go to an education course to learn about marketing and sales.

                Following that, I would like to see the Northwest Territories at some of these
                trade shows down here in the United States. I’ve seen other provinces such as
                Manitoba and Saskatchewan at a lot of these tradeshows but the Northwest
                Territories seems to be vacant. I haven’t seen them participating in any great
                scale.

Q:              Okay. What types of new marketing initiatives would you like to see from a
                regional perspective? And I’m referring specifically to branding. Any thoughts
                on the NWT’s presence as a region, from a marketing perspective?

Gordon Gin: There, again, I’m fairly new to the business, so I haven’t worked with the NWT
            and the tourism department other than just for the last few months. And it’s hard
            for me to come up with a solution until I know if any problems exist. At this
            time, I’d like to see more assistance in going out for other marketplaces, outside
            of the United States.

                And maybe the NWT could assist the local businesses in exposure into the
                Japanese and the European markets a little bit more. I’m not sure what they’re
                doing right now but those are two big markets that I think we could excel in and
                obtain more foreign investment and foreign tourists to the Northwest Territories.

Q:              Okay. Compared to how the owners of Pilote Point Lodge marketed their fishing
                operation, do you plan any major changes?

Gordon Gin: Yes. The biggest change that I see is my marketplace is going to be targeted to
            the Rocky Mountain States areas for the first year to two years. The previous
            owners seemed to concentrate locally, within the Yellow knife and Alberta areas.
            They did do a little bit of marketing out in the eastern side of the United States,
            but very little. I think they only attended one or maybe two tradeshows.

                My marketing plans are to expand that and do at least three trade shows in the
                United States next year plus two others in Canada, especially Calgary and
                Edmonton. And, also, look into revamping all the brochures, re-branding the
                Pilote Point Lodge into Yellow Dog Lodge. And, hopefully, word of mouth
                travels as well.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        230
                I work in the pipeline industry and I have for, oh, about 27 years now. And I’ve
                got roughly 2,000 contacts within the pipeline industry in North America and
                abroad. And I’ll be using those contacts to heighten the awareness of the Yellow
                Dog Lodge in that area.

                Now these contacts are scattered all the way across North America, but primarily
                concentrating in the Denver, the Houston, the Oklahoma, and the Calgary,
                Edmonton areas.

Q:              Okay. Are you going to be changing your product or service offerings, Gordon,
                in the next couple of years?

Gordon Gin: Yes. I will be discontinuing service in the wintertime. That was mainly a
            personal choice of mine. I’ll suspend the winter operations for a period of two
            years until the lodge gets self-sufficient, I will be subsidizing it with my own
            income through another source, through my regular position.

                And, from on operating standpoint, I want to turn it into more of a fishing lodge
                than an eco-tourism lodge. In the past, the lodge had catered to mainly local
                Yellowknife residents, bringing people out in the wintertime as well as the
                summertime.

                The other thing that I want to concentrate on is some local Yellowknife business
                accounts, such as Caddy [ph], Diavik, Department of Northern and Indian Affairs,
                that sort of things. And I’ve already started raising the awareness amongst the
                business community as having Pilote Point, or the former Pilote Point Lodge, the
                new Yellow Dog Lodge, as a management retreat destination. And I’ve had some
                success in talking with the local business and hopefully that will continue.

Q:              Okay. Gordon, what marketing strategies, from competitive destinations, not
                necessarily fishing lodges, but any destination that competes for the same
                clientele, the same market base, what marketing strategies come to mind that you
                feel are superior in, and I should—sorry, I take this back. This is fishing lodges
                anywhere, what marketing strategies are out there from competitors that you
                admire, that you feel are superior in attracting sport fisherman?

Gordon Gin: Well if I had a big marketing budget, I would like to have full-blown glossy
            brochures as well as TV exposure. A lot of the other, larger, higher-end lodges
            seem to attract TV personalities coming into the lodge and exposing the lodge in
            through that type of medium.

                The other media that’s coming to the forefront is Internet or web-based
                marketing. And new tools are coming on board such as 3-D, virtual tours, where
                you can go on to the lodge, the Internet site, and virtually be at the lodge and walk
                through the entire system. And that’s something that I’m looking at to enhance,
                for next year as well.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        231
                Some of the other marketing opportunities would be high-end marketing overseas,
                actually setting up a booth in Japan and advertising that Yellowknife and the
                Northwest Territories as one of the last great frontiers on earth and come on up
                and visit us sometime and play in our backyard where the wilderness is still wild.
                And if you want to come and see and get away from people, this is the place to
                come to and enjoy.

                The other strategies that I think are excellent to work on are the eco-tourism,
                expanding beyond just fishing and offering other services. Traditionally, income
                came from fishing and hunting. Well I’d like to see more eco-tourism, more tours
                that cater to families and people that are interested in the ecology of the region
                and preserving the ecology. And I think those are admirable marketable strategies
                that I may want to take advantage of here in the future.

Q:              Okay. In your opinion, what competitive sport fishing destinations do an
                effective job at attracting sports fishermen, from a marketing perspective?

Gordon Gin: Well I think the sport fishing industry caters to the over 40 crowd.

Q:              No, sorry, I’m actually asking are there—which businesses, which lodges out
                there—?

Gordon Gin: Oh, which individual lodges?

Q:              Yeah. Are there any out there that you say, “Wow, they’re sharp. They’re on the
                ball. I admire their marketing—?”

Gordon Gin: Right. Okay. Well I’m not that familiar with a lot of the lodges up in the
            Yellowknife area. A couple of them that come to mind are Blattsford Lake [ph].
            Blattsford seems to be a leader in marketing and attracting new business and new
            ideas. Some of their lodges that I’m familiar with are Wallace and Lake Lodge
            [ph] in Saskatchewan. It’s grown from a small ma and pa operation to a world-
            class facility, bringing in world-class chefs and also trained guides and enhancing
            the lodge and marketing abroad as well.

                Plummer’s Lodges do an excellent job of marketing. They’re well known all over
                the world. They’re one of the, if they are not, but they are one of the premier
                lodges in Canada.

                The other lodges that I would look at are some of the west coast fishing lodges out
                in Queen Charlotte Islands. Queen Charlotte Lodge, which I had the privilege of
                going to a few years back, does a wonderful job of marketing and catering to the
                upper-end crowd.

                What I’d like to see with my lodge is trying to fit into a niche market, not try and
                compete head-to-head with these upper end lodges, but trying to find a place



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        232
                within the industry and cater to, maybe, the families and get into more the middle-
                class of the lodges and work on that area.

                So those are the lodges I probably admire the most for their marketing techniques
                and marketing pushes.

Q:              Great. How—hmm, I’m going to actually skip this question. And this one—well
                actually I can ask you, do you own your own aircraft?

Gordon Gin: No, I do not.

Q:              How many people do you anticipate employing this season?

Gordon Gin: Counting myself?

Q:              Yeah.

Gordon Gin: Just my wife, myself, and my nephew. So there’s just going to be three of us.
            It’ll be a slow year this year because it’s the first year of operations and I’m only
            expecting a small crowd this year, maybe a revenue stream of about $50,000 to
            $100,000, somewhere in that range.

Q:              Okay. Well that’s it. I’m going to actually skip the remaining—actually it’s
                going to stop…




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      233
Survey Questionnaire

Thank you for taking the time to complete this survey. The information
gathered here will provide valuable feedback for all of the respondents, NWT Tourism and
GNWT Industry Tourism and Investment.
Before beginning the survey, please ensure that you have the following information at hand:
-Information regarding your fishing operation's revenue and guest information for the past 5
years-Information regarding expenses for the past 5 years
You may also find it useful to have a calculator ready.
Please note that if necessary, you may logout of the survey at any time and your responses
completed will be saved for you.
You may access the survey at the point you exited, just by logging in again.
Thank you.

BUSINESS OPERATIONS
Please pick one of the answers below.
1. What is the size of your operation in terms of annual revenue?
Under $55,000
$55,000 to $100,000
$100,000 to $500,000
$500,000 to $1,000,000
$1,000,000 to $2,000,000
over $2,000,000

Please pick one of the answers below.
2. What percentage of your revenue comes from customers who come primarily to fish?
0% to 20%
20% to 40%
40% to 60%
60% to 80%
80% to 100%

Page 1 of

19




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      234
Please fill in the answers in the table below (mark appropriate circles and squares and fill in the
blank spaces).
3. By comparing the following seasons to each other, please indicate whether your revenue
increased,
decreased or remained unchanged relative to the previous year. If it increased or decreased,
please indicatethe percentage.
Matrix: part 2 of 2
% Increase or Decrease
2005 - 2004 ...........................................
2004 - 2003 ...........................................
2003 - 2002 ...........................................
2002 - 2001 ...........................................
2001 - 2000 ...........................................

Please use the blank space to write your answers.
4. What percentage of your total annual costs related to your fishing operation do the following
expenses compose?
Fuel
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Insurance
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Food
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Charter Leases/Passenger Airfare
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Marketing
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Staff/Guides
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Other
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Total
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Page 2 of

19




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                                                                             235
Please fill in the answers in the table below (mark appropriate circles and squares and fill in the
blank spaces).

5. When you compare your 2005 expenses with your 2000 expenses, by how much have your
costsincreased or decreased for the following expense categories? Please select one of the
options for each costcategory and state the change, as a percentage.
Matrix: part 1 of 2
Increased Decreased Remained Unchanged Don't Know
Fuel
Insurance
Food
Charter
Leases/Passenger
Airfare
Transportation/Freight
Marketing
Staff/Guides
Other

Please fill in the answers in the table below (mark appropriate circles and squares and fill in the
blank spaces).
6. At the end of the 2005 season, by what percentage had your profit increased or decreased,
compared withthe 2000 season?
Matrix: part 1 of 2
Increased Decreased Remained Unchanged Don't Know
2005 Profit

Please fill in the answers in the table below (mark appropriate circles and squares and fill in the
blank spaces).
7. For 2005, by what percentage had your rates increased or decreased, compared to the 2000
season?
Matrix: part 1 of 2
Increased Decreased Remained Unchanged Don't Know
2005 rates
Please fill in the answers in the table below (mark appropriate circles and squares and fill in the
blank spaces).

Please write your answer in the space below.
8. Based on your 2005 rates, what price do you charge for one adult for a typical 7-day package?
Not
including airfare to and from the NWT. If you don't have a 7-day package available, please type
in n/a.
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                                                                             236
Please pick one of the answers below.
9. Are you planning on making any major capital investments in your fishing operation within
the next 5 years?
Yes
No
Maybe

Please pick one of the answers below and add your comments.
10. How much of a capital investment will (would) you be making over the next 5 years?
$0 to $25,000
$25,000 to $50,000
$50,000 to $75,000
$75,000 to $100,000
$100,000 +
What will you be investing in? ie. new boats, new accommodations, new airstrip?
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please check all that apply and/or add your own variant.
11. Will you be making the investment personally, with capital from a bank loan, or with capital
from anoutside investor? Please check all that apply.
Personally
Bank loan
Outside investor
All 3. Personal, Bank and Investor
Other
If Other, please specify
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please pick one of the answers below.
12. Do you currently purchase group liability insurance for your fishing operation? (ie. through a
tourismassociation or chamber of commerce or other membership group).
Yes
No
Please write your answer in the space below.
13. Through which group do you currently purchase liability insurance?

Please pick one of the answers below.
14. Have you ever purchased group liability insurance for your fishing operation in the past?
Yes
No
Please write your answer in the space below.
15. Through which group have you purchased liability insurance in the past?
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                                                                             237
Please write your answer in the space below.
16. From which insurance provider do you currently purchase commercial liability insurance for
your fishingoperation?
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please pick one of the answers below and add your comments.
17. In the future, would you switch from your current insurance broker if you could purchase
group liabilityinsurance for your fishing operation at a discount?
Yes
No
If your answer is "No", please state why.
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please pick one of the answers below and add your comments.
18. Have you ever had an insurance company cancel your commercial liability insurance for
your fishingoperation?
Yes
No
If "Yes", which company cancelled the insurance and why?
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please pick one of the answers below and add your comments.
19. Would you consider purchasing additional items such as food, fuel, airline services, etc.,
through acooperative buying group of fishing lodges if the buying group provided cost savings
opportunities?
Yes
No
Maybe
If No, please state why
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please use the blank space to write your answers.
20. To advertise and promote your fishing operation what percentage of your marketing budget
is spent on thefollowing marketing mediums? If you do not use a specific type of marketing,
please type in a 0 for thischoice.
Magazine/Newspaper ads
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Radio or TV ads
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Host fishing shows



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                                                                             238
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Host fishing/travel writers
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Company website
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Web advertising
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Search engines
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Web site linking
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Company brochures
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Cooperative marketing programs
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Canadian trade shows
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
U.S. trade shows
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Other
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Total
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please use the blank space to write your answers.
21. Based on your experience marketing your fishing lodge, please indicate what percentage of
your businesscomes from the following mediums. If you do not use a specific type of marketing,
please type in a 0 for thischoice.
Magazine/Newspaper ads
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Radio or TV ads
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                                                                             239
Host TV fishing shows
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Host fishing/travel writers
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Company website
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Web advertising
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Search engines
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Web site linking
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Company brochures
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Cooperative marketing programs
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Canadian trade shows
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
U.S. trade shows
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Other
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Total
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Please write your answer in the space below.
22. Please list which Canadian trade shows you attend.
............................................................................................................................................................

Please write your answer in the space below.
23. Please list which U.S. trade shows you attend.
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                                                                             240
Please pick one of the answers below.
24. Do you purchase advertising space in the Explorer's Guide?
Yes
No

Please pick one of the answers below and add your comments.
25. Are you involved in any of GNWT Industry, Tourism and Investment's programs (such as the
BusinessCredit Corporation loan program)? If none, please type n/a.
Yes
No
I'm not aware of any GNWT ITI programs
n/a
If Yes, please specify which program(s)
............................................................................................................................................................

Please pick one of the answers below and add your comments.
26. Would you consider participating in a cooperative marketing program through NWT
Tourism?
Yes
No
If Yes, Is there a particular type of marketing that you would like to partner with NWT Tourism
on? ie. printadvertising, familiarization and media tours etc.
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please pick one of the answers below and add your comments.
27. Are you currently participating in any of the cooperative marketing programs available
through theCanadian Tourism Commission?
Yes
No
Unaware of such programs
If Yes, which program(s)?
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please write your answer in the space below.
28. What kind of market research and/or market information would be useful to you if received
on a regularbasis? If none, please type n/a.
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please write your answer in the space below.
29. Are there any special studies or surveys that you would like to see conducted relating to the
guided sportfishing industry in the NWT? If none, please type n/a.
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                                                                             241
Please pick one of the answers below and add your comments.
30. Do you make use of any other sources of market information to assist you with business
decisions as theyrelate to your fishing operation?
Yes
No
If Yes, please specify
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please pick one of the answers below.
31. What would be the best means for NWT Tourism to provide market information to you?
By email
By fax
By regular mail
Throught the NWT Tourism website

Please mark the corresponding circle - only one per line.
32. Please rate the following destinations in terms of their importance as competition to your
fishingoperation's service/product offerings.
Yes, destinations of
this
type definitely
compete directly
for the same
guests that my
operation is
targeting.
This destination is
not a
direct competitor,
but it still does
share some of the
same travel market
with my operation.
No, I don't really
see this
destination as a
competitor.
Don't Know
Other NWT fishing
operations
Other Canadian fishing
operations
Alaskan fishing operations
Other outdoor adventure
experiences



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                                                                             242
Please write your answer in the space below.
33. Please identify who you see as your closest competitor.
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please fill in the answers in the table below (mark appropriate circles and squares and fill in the
blank spaces).
34. Please identify the difference in price between your typical 7-day package and a 7-day
package of yournearest competitor, not including airfare to and from the NWT.
My typical 7-day
package
is LESS expensive than
my closest competitor
by...
My typical 7-day
package is MORE
expensive than my
closest competitor by...
I don't have a 7-day
package
$ value difference
7-day package ...........................................
Please pick one of the answers below.

35. Have you experienced significant problems managing your human resources?
Yes
No

Please fill in the answers in the table below (mark appropriate circles and squares and fill in the
blank spaces).
36. Please rank the following human resource difficulties as they relate to your fishing operation.
Serious Difficulties Moderate Difficulties Minor Difficulties No Difficulties
High staff turnover
during the season
Difficulty finding
qualified, local, trained
staff
Difficulty finding good
management staff
Wage competition from
other sectors
Difficulty retaining the
same staff from one
season to the next
Other
Please write your answer in the space below.



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                                                                             243
37. Please list any "other" human resource difficulties that you may have to deal with. If there
aren't any,
please type n/a for not applicable.
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please pick one of the answers below and add your comments.
38. Would you support a government effort to develop skills programs specifically geared to
training people forwork in the guided sport fishing industry?
Yes
No
Maybe
If Yes or Maybe, which job titles would you like to see a government sponsored training
program for? ie.
guides, housekeepers, etc.?
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please pick one of the answers below and add your comments.
39. Do you feel the need for business management training for yourself or your management
staff?
Yes
No
Maybe
If Yes or Maybe, please specify what kind of business management training you think would be
valuable.
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please pick one of the answers below and add your comments.
40. Please select the option below that best describes the corporate structure of your fishing
operation.
Sole proprietorship
Family owned and operated
Incorporated
Limited partnership
If Limited partnership, who are your partners?
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please pick one of the answers below.
41. Do you have private investors in your fishing operation?
Yes
No




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                                                                             244
Please pick one of the answers below and add your comments.
42. What is your season of operation?
Summer (April - September)
Winter (October - March)
Contractually
Year-round
Other
If Other, please explain
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please pick one of the answers below.
43. How many staff does your fishing operation employ during the operating season?
1 to 5
5 to 10
10 to 15
15 to 20
20 to 25
25 to 30
Over 30

Please pick one of the answers below.
44. How do your guests get to your fishing operation?
Drive
Drive or fly
Fly Only

Please pick one of the answers below.
45. Does your fishing operation have an airstrip, an airstrip and floatplane access or is it
floatplane only?
Airstrip
Airstrip and floatplane
Floatplane only

Please write your answer in the space below.
46. What is the capacity of the airstrip? What type of planes generally land on it?
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please pick one of the answers below.
47. Approximately, how long does it take to access your facility from the nearest airport that has
jet service?
1/2 hour
1 hour
1 1/2 hours
2 hours



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                                                                             245
2 1/2 hours
3 or more hours

Please pick one of the answers below.
48. Do you feel that promoting "catch and release" gives your operation a competitive
advantage?
Yes
No

Please use the blank space to write your answers.
49. Please indicate the percentage of your clients who prefer to fish using the following
technique(s).
Fly fishing only
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Gear fishing only
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Fly and gear fishing
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please write your answer in the space below.
50. Over the past 5 seasons, have you noticed any trends developing in the preferred style of
fishing of yourguests? For example, are more guests fly-fishing or gear fishing and fly-fishing on
the same trip? If not,
please state that you haven't noticed any trends developing.
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

PRODUCT/SERVICE OFFERINGS
Please pick one of the answers below and add your comments.
51. Is your operation primarily a fishing lodge/fishing guide service?
Yes
No
If "No" please explain
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please check all that apply and/or add your own variant.
52. What types of fishing packages does your fishing operation offer? Please select all that apply.
Guided day trips from an NWT town or city
Overnight American plan with guided fishing
Overnight housekeeping plan with guided fishing
"Do it yourself" accommodations (ie wilderness cabin rental) and fishing (non guided)
Overnight American plan without guided fishing



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                                                                             246
Other, please specify
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please check all that apply and/or add your own variant.
53. What activities, other than fishing, do you promote as being available to your guests? Please
check all that apply.
Canoeing
Helicopter sight seeing
Float plane sight seeing
Wildlife viewing/photography
Interpretive tours
Dogsled tours
Snowmobile tours
Skiing tours
Prospecting/gold panning
Hiking
Rafting
Outpost Camps
Other(s), please specify
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please pick one of the answers below and add your comments.
54. Within the next two seasons, do you intend to offer new experiences, other than fishing, to
your futureguests?
Yes
No
Maybe
If Yes or Maybe, what new experience(s) do you intend to offer?
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please pick one of the answers below and add your comments.
55. Would you be interested in expanding your service/product offerings in the future?
Yes
No
Maybe
If Yes or Maybe, please indicate what kind of new service/product offering you would like to be
able to offer toyour guests. If you are unsure, please type "unsure".
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                                                                             247
Please check all that apply and/or add your own variant.
56. What barriers/obstacles do you face when developing a new service/product offering for your
guests?
Please check all that apply.
Lack of awareness of emerging markets
Access to new capital
Lack of qualified staff
Lack of marketing resources
Other(s)
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

CLIENTELLE

Please fill in the answers in the table below (mark appropriate circles and squares and fill in the
blank spaces).
57. During the following seasons, please indicate whether the total number of guests to your
operationincreased, decreased or remained unchanged in comparison with the previous season.
Matrix: part 1 of 2
Increased Decreased Remained Unchanged Don't Know
2005
2004
2003
2002
2001
2000
Please fill in the answers in the table below (mark appropriate circles and squares and fill in the
blank spaces).

Please use the blank space to write your answers.
58. In 2005, where were your clients from? Please indicate the percentage of the total, from each
region.
United States
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Canada (excluding the NWT)
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Northwest Territories
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Asia
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Europe




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                                                                             248
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Other
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Total
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please fill in the answers in the table below (mark appropriate circles and squares and fill in the
blank spaces).
59. Comparing your 2005 guest numbers to your year 2000 numbers, has the percentage of
guests to youroperation from the following regions, increased, decreased or remained
unchanged?
Matrix: part 1 of 2
Increased Decreased Remained Unchanged Don't Know
United States
Canada (excluding the
NWT)
Northwest Territories
Asia
Europe
Other
Please fill in the answers in the table below (mark appropriate circles and squares and fill in the
blank spaces).

Please pick one of the answers below or add your own.
60. During the 2005 season, what was the average age of guests to your fishing operation?
35 - 40 Years old
40 - 45 Years old
45 - 50 Years old
50 - 55 Years old
55 - 60 Years old
Other - please specify
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please pick one of the answers below and add your comments.
61. Comparing your 2005 guest numbers to your year 2000 numbers, has the average age of your
guestsbeen going up, going down, or remaining unchanged?
Increased
Decreased
Remained unchanged
Don't know
If Increased or Decreased, what was the average age in 2000?




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                                                                             249
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please use the blank space to write your answers.
62. In general, please indicate the percentage of your guests that are...
Male
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Female
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Return (repeat) customers
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
On a family vacation
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
On a business related trip
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
On a government business related trip
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Members of a group of fishing friends on a holiday
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Experienced fishermen
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Somewhat experienced fishermen
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Complete fishing novices
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
Uninterested in fishing at all
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................

Please pick one of the answers below and add your comments.
63. Would you like to target or play host to, new geographic market(s) of clients?
Yes
No, I'm satisfied with my existing target markets
Maybe
If yes or maybe, which new geographic markets would you like to focus on and why?




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                                                                             250
Please fill in the answers in the table below (mark appropriate circles and squares and fill in the
blank spaces).
64. Over the next five seasons, do you see the percentage of guests to your operation from the
followingregions, increasing, decreasing or remaining unchanged?
Increasing Decreasing Remaining Unchanged
United States
Canada (excluding the
NWT)
Northwest Territories
Asia
Europe
Other

Please pick one of the answers below.
65. During the entire 2005 season, at what percentage of capacity did you operate? For example,
if you canaccommodate up to 100 guests in total over the season, and you had 70, the percentage
of capacity is 70%
30% to 40%
40% to 50%
50% to 60%
60% to 70%
70% to 80%
80% to 90%
90% to 100%
Other

Please check all that apply and/or add your own variant.
66. Have any of the following regulatory organizations or issues negatively impacted your
business? Please
check all that apply.
Land claim issues
Mackenzie Valley Environmental Review Board issues
Transport Canada rules
GNWT Parks and Tourism act
Other, please specify.
............................................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                                                                             251
Statistical Tables

Additional Sport Fishing Outfitters Survey Results

Outfitter Capital Investments Forecast
Table 58
Are you planning on making any major capital investments in           Response Response
your fishing operation within the next 5 years?                        Percent   Total

             Yes                                                       41.7%        10

              No                                                       20.8%        5

           Maybe                                                       37.5%        9




Table 59
How much of a capital investment will (would) you be making           Response Response
over the next 5 years?                                                 Percent   Total
           $0 to
                                                                       21.1%        4
        $25,000
      $25,000 to
                                                                       52.6%        10
        $50,000
      $50,000 to
                                                                       10.5%        2
        $75,000
      $75,000 to
                                                                         0%         0
       $100,000
    $100,000 +                                                         15.8%        3




What will you be investing in? ie. new boats, new accommodations, a new airstrip?
Table 60
 boats, motors facility upgrades
 motors,camping eqipment,tent camp .
 Boats and motors
 boats
 all the above
 boats motors aircraft
 Floating fishing cabins
 engines, equipment, furniture,
 boats, motors, new outhouse
 boats,motors, lodge renovations
 boats painted/repaired, new motors,
 building maint
 boats motors cabins
 New boats,New accomodations


John St. Louis Consulting                                                               252
 Boats, motors, life jackets, buildings,
 etc.


Table 70
Will you be making the investment personally, with capital from   Respons
                                                                            Respons
a bank loan, or with capital from an outside investor? Please        e
                                                                             e Total
check all that apply.                                             Percent

                     Personally                                    68.4%      13

                     Bank loan                                     26.3%       5

             Outside investor                                      10.5%       2
         All 3. Personal, Bank
                                                                   21.1%       4
                 and Investor
                         Other                                     10.5%       2

      If Other, please specify                                     21.1%       4




Table 71
Have any of the following regulatory organizations or issues      Response Response
negatively impacted your business? Please check all that apply.    Percent   Total
      Land claim
                                                                   29.2%       7
           issues
 Mackenzie Valley
   Environmental
                                                                   4.2%        1
    Review Board
           issues
Transport Canada
                                                                   45.8%      11
             rules
 GNWT Parks and
                                                                   16.7%       4
     Tourism act
    Other, please
                                                                   37.5%       9
         specify.




Outfitters and Insurance

Table 72
Do you currently purchase group liability insurance for your
                                                                 Response Response
fishing operation? (ie. through a tourism association or chamber
                                                                  Percent   Total
of commerce or other membership group).
             Yes                                                   50%        12

              No                                                   50%        12




John St. Louis Consulting                                                          253
Table 73
In the future, would you switch from your current insurance
                                                                    Response   Response
broker if you could purchase group liability insurance for your
                                                                     Percent     Total
fishing operation at a discount?
             Yes                                                     91.7%        22

              No                                                     8.3%          2




Table 74
Have you ever had an insurance company cancel your                  Response Response
commercial liability insurance for your fishing operation?           Percent   Total

             Yes                                                     4.2%         1

              No                                                     95.8%        23




Marketing
Table 75
To advertise and promote your fishing
                                                                                  # of
operation, what percentage of your marketing
                                                                               Responses
budget is spent on the following marketing                   Mean
                                                                                out of 24
mediums? If you do not use a specific type of                                     Total
marketing, please type in a 0 for this choice.
 Magazine/Newspaper
                                                             14.4                 23
               ads
     Radio or TV ads                                         1.2                  19
  Host fishing shows                                         3.6                  21
   Host fishing/travel
                                                             6.2                  20
              writers
   Company website                                           10.8                 24
     Web advertising                                         1.8                  20
      Search engines                                         1.7                  21
     Web site linking                                        1.4                  19
 Company brochures                                           14.7                 24
         Cooperative
                                                             0.8                  19
 marketing programs
      Canadian trade
                                                             6.1                  22
              shows
    U.S. trade shows                                         17.5                 23
               Other                                         15.9                 19




John St. Louis Consulting                                                              254
Table 76
Based on your experience marketing your fishing
                                                                                                   # of
lodge, please indicate what percentage of your
                                                                                                Response
business comes from the following mediums. If                              Mean
                                                                                                 s out of
you do not use a specific type of marketing,                                                     24 Total
please type in a 0 for this choice.
       Magazine/Newspaper
                                                                             2.5                    19
                     ads
              Radio or TV ads                                                0.6                    17
      Host TV fishing shows                                                  3.2                    20
          Host fishing/travel
                                                                             2.7                    17
                     writers
          Company website                                                   16.6                    22
             Web advertising                                                 2.1                    19
              Search engines                                                 0.9                    17
              Web site linking                                               1.4                    16
       Company brochures                                                    15.5                    22
      Cooperative marketing
                                                                             0.1                    17
                  programs
      Canadian trade shows                                                   5.8                    20
             U.S. trade shows                                               11.6                    21
                        Other                                                41                     22




Which Canadian trade shows do you attend each year?

Table 77
 #        Responses
  1      none
  2      Calgary, Red Deer, Emonton boat shows
  3      Toronto, Edmonton, Red Deer,
  4      n/a
  5      Calgary Edmonton
  6      none
  7      Saskatoon, Regina, Edmonton, Calgary, Toronto, Lloydminster, Camrose, Red deer, Medicine Hat
  8      NA
  9      no
 10      none
 11      none
 12      n/a
 13      none
 14      0
 15      none
 16      none
 17      n/a



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                               255
 18    none
 19    Edmonton Calgary
 20    none, It seems new outfitting businesses do not have a chance, GNWT more interested in
       promotig bigger and established outfitters
 21    n/a
 22    Pheasant Run All Canada Denver Minneapolis Sacramento
 23    Toronto Sportsman Show
 24    Toronto Sportsman



Which U.S. trade shows do you attend each year?

Table 78
 #     Responses
 1    in the past, sci reno, all canada chicago, mineapolis, green bay, ISE Denver, LA, Seattle, Salt Lake
      City
 2    none
 3    Denver, Salt Lake City , Los Angeles, Chicago, Minneapolis
 4    n/a
 5    Denverand SCI in Dallas & Mt Pleasant; ALL Canada at Chicago, Minneapolis, Indianapolis, St Louis,
      Omaha.
 6    chicago denver minneapolis philadelphia
 7    Non this year
 8    Chicago, Harrisburg, Minneapolis, Denver, Milwaulkee, Omaha,
 9    no
 10   none
 11   Salt lake City, Denver, San Mateo
 12   n/a
 13   none
 14   0
 15   none
 16   All Canada, Minneapolis, Chicago International Sportsmans Expo, Sacrtamento, Denver, San
      Mateo, Salt Lake City, Phoenix Fred Hall Sportshows, Long Beach SCI Convention, Reno
 17   n/a
 18   none since 1998
 19   Denver, Billings, Lancaster, Detroit
 20   none
 21   I did not atent any trade shows
 22   See last list
 23   3 Shows in Chicago 2 Shows in Minneapolis 1 Show in Omaha 1 Show in St. Louis
 24   All Canada--Chicago



Table 79
                                                                                     Response Response
Do you purchase advertising space in the Explorer's Guide?
                                                                                      Percent   Total
        Yes                                                                           54.2%          13

         No                                                                           45.8%          11




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                               256
Table 80
Are you involved in any of GNWT Industry, Tourism and
                                                                              Response Response
Investment's programs (such as the Business Credit
                                                                               Percent   Total
Corporation loan program)? If none, please type n/a.
                 Yes                                                           20.8%      5

                 No                                                            16.7%      4
 I'm not aware of
    any GNWT ITI                                                               29.2%      7
       programs
                 n/a                                                           33.3%      8
*Re: the 5 respondents who indicated “Yes” in the above question. They were also asked to
name the programs they were involved in. The five responses were: Loans, BDF & BCC, NWT
Tourism, Grants and “No, not easy to access”.

Table 81
Would you consider participating in a cooperative marketing                   Response Response
program through NWT Tourism?                                                   Percent   Total

           Yes                                                                 79.2%      19

           No                                                                  20.8%      5


If “Yes”, what cooperative marketing opportunities interest you?

Table 82
US sport shows.media tours .tv add.
media, print
Branding, if handled correctly, but not as proposed.
print advertising
anything
Interne, posters. brochures
all of the above that relate to our business and would generate us business
print advertising, familiarization and media tours



Table 83
Are you currently participating in any of the cooperative
                                                                              Response Response
marketing programs available through the Canadian Tourism
                                                                               Percent   Total
Commission?
           Yes                                                                 4.2%       1

           No                                                                  50%        12
   Unaware of
         such                                                                  45.8%      11
    programs
*The one “Yes” selection indicated that they think they are involved in a program with the CTC,
however, they aren’t certain what it is called.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                     257
Table 84
What kind of market research and/or market information would be useful to you if
received on a regular basis? If none, please type n/a.
 #    Responses
 1    n/a
 2    n/a
 3    n/a
 4    travel info on usa guests comming to canada for fishing .
 5    Market trends
 6    n/a
 7    n/a
 8    none
 9    Where the tourists are from.
 10   n/a
 11   demographics
 12   n/a
 13   n/a
 14   n/a
 15   u.s. consumer trends for fly-in fishing trips
 16   NA
 17   n/a
 18   Don't know
 19   none
 20   N/A
 21   n/a
 22   Associations that people belong to that we could perhaps advertise with - example dental
      associations, medical association.
 23   Fishing Clubs Meeting and Seminar companies
 24   n/a



Table 85
Are there any special studies or surveys that you would like to see conducted
relating to the guided sport fishing industry in the NWT? If none, please type n/a.
 #    Responses
 1    STOP studies and surveys! spend money on marketing instead!!!!
 2    n/a
 3    n/a
 4    none . dfo dose a good job of stock management
 5    Exit survay
 6    n/a
 7    n/a
 8    geographic location of target audience
 9    n/a
 10   n/a
 11   fisheries, water quality, air quality,
 12   n/a
 13   n/a




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                        258
 14    n/a
 15    n/a
 16    NA
 17    n/a
 18    a study from the tourists perspective is needed to see if they just are not interested or if we cost
       to much ???
 19    n/a
 20    Marketing the younger people
 21    n/a
 22    Can you give some examples of what you could offer please
 23    n/a
 24    n/a



Table 86
Do you make use of any other sources of market information
                                                                                       Response       Response
to assist you with business decisions as they relate to your
                                                                                        Percent         Total
fishing operation?
   Yes                                                                                   25%              6

      No                                                                                 75%              18




If “Yes” to the above, please specify.
Table 87
word of mouth recommendations
have looked at the niche markets that might be applicable
flyers,
Magazines, etc.
Discussions with our salesman and marketing team
Business Newspaper



Please rate the following destinations in terms of their importance as competition to your
fishing operation’s service/product offerings.

Table 88
                                                                                       Response      Response
Other NWT fishing operations
                                                                                        Percent        Total
            Yes, destinations of this
    type definitely compete directly
                                                                                         70.8%           18
       for the same guests that my
              operation is targeting.
            This destination is not a
  direct competitor, but it still does
 share some of the same travel mar                                                        8.3%            2
                                   ket
                  with my operation.
           No, I don't really see this
                                                                                         20.8%            5
        destination as a competitor.
                         Don't Know                                                        0%             0




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                                     259
Table 89
                                          Response   Response
Other Canadian fishing operations
                                           Percent     Total
             Yes, destinations of this
     type definitely compete directly
                                           50%         12
        for the same guests that my
               operation is targeting.
             This destination is not a
   direct competitor, but it still does
                                           16.7%        4
      share some of the same travel
          market with my operation.
            No, I don't really see this
                                           29.2%        7
         destination as a competitor.
                          Don't Know       4.2%         1


Table 90
                                          Response   Response
Alaskan fishing operations
                                           Percent     Total
            Yes, destinations of this
    type definitely compete directly
                                           29.2%        7
       for the same guests that my
              operation is targeting.
            This destination is not a
        direct competitor, but it still
                                           37.5%        9
 shares some of the same travel
 market with my operation.
           No, I don't really see this
                                           29.2%        7
        destination as a competitor.
                          Don't Know       4.2%         1




Table 91
                                          Response   Response
Other outdoor adventure experiences
                                           Percent     Total
            Yes, destinations of this
    type definitely compete directly
                                           20.8%        5
       for the same guests that my
              operation is targeting.
            This destination is not a
   direct competitor, but it still does
      share some of the same travel        12.5%        3
          market with my operation.

          No, I don't really see this
                                           58.3%        14
        destination as a competitor.
                          Don't Know       8.3%         2




John St. Louis Consulting                                    260
Table 92
Please identify who you see as your closest competitor.

 #    Responses
 1    Sask & Manitoba lodges
 3    Plummers Lodges, Kasba Lodge
 4    motels with lakeside viewing of northern lights . and boat tour opperators
 5    The fishing lodges in Northern Sask & Manitoba Also other market trends toward adventure travel
      vs fishing
 6    plummers lodge
 7    Scott Lake
 8    Plummers, Woleston, Kasba, Athabasca, Talston
 9    Alaska
 10   I don't have any direct competitors.
 11   Blactchford,
 12   n/a
 13   Other NWT fishing lodges
 14   other fishing lodges
 15   Tazin Lodge, lodges on Great Slave Lake
 16   Plummers Lodges
 17   none
 18   british columbia/ontario
 19   Mackay Lake Lodge
 20   I believe everyone should work together, if your business is full refer them to another place so
      everyone benefits
 21   Graygoose Lodge outfitters
 22   Yukon, British Columbia, Alaska, Sask.
 23   Plummers Hatchet Lake Lodge Wollaston Lake Lodge Neulton Lake Lodge
 24   Wollaston Lake Lodge



Table 93
Would you like to target or play host to, new geographic                              Response Response
market(s) of clients?                                                                  Percent   Total

               Yes                                                                      33.3%            8
 No, I'm satisfied
 with my existing                                                                       37.5%            9
  target markets
             Maybe                                                                      29.2%            7


If “Yes” or “Maybe”, which new geographic markets would you like to focus on and why?

Table 94
Europe, new market
us countrys . europe countrys . more volume of people
Japan Europe offer potential
Would prefer not to make public the results of our company sponsored research
german
US Rocky Mtn States, Japan




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                                    261
austrailia New zealand
any markets that will generate customers
asian. most asian visitors don't have the opportunity to try fishing here
would have to research this/ korean???
Germany, USA, Japan
Europe
Europe




Human Resources
Table 95
Have you experienced significant problems managing your                       Response   Response
human resources?                                                               Percent     Total
   Yes                                                                         25%          6
   No                                                                          75%         18



Table 96
Please rank the following human resource difficulties as they relate to your fishing
operation.


                                                      Serious Difficulties

                                                      Moderate Difficulties

                                                      Minor Difficulties

                                                      No Difficulties




  High staff turnover
  during the season.




    Difficulty finding
     qualified, local,
    trained staff.




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                       262
    Difficulty finding
  good management
              staff.




   Wage competition
  from other sectors




  Difficulty retaining
 the same staff from
   one season to the
              next.




             Other




Table 97
Would you support a government effort to develop skills
                                                                  Response Response
programs specifically geared to training people for work in the
                                                                   Percent   Total
guided sport fishing industry?
              Yes                                                  41.7%      10

               No                                                  33.3%      8

           Maybe                                                   25%        6




John St. Louis Consulting                                                         263
*If “Yes” or “Maybe”, which job titles would you like to see a government sponsored
training program for? ie. guides, housekeepers, etc.?

Table 98
boat opperators for tourism, tour managers
guides, cooks, house keepers, bar tenders, guest services
guides
Guide
guides, cooks
guides
guides need cpr, first aid, boating certification, interpretive training,
guides, housekeepers , safety programs
naturalist guides, cooks


Table 99
Do you feel the need for business management training for                   Response Response
yourself or your management staff?                                           Percent   Total

       Yes                                                                   20.8%      5

        No                                                                   66.7%      16

    Maybe                                                                    12.5%      3


If “Yes” or “Maybe”, please specify what kind of business management training you think
would be valuable.

Table 100
Computers and Accounting
Sales, hospitality, guiding GPS
bookkeeping, marketing
book keeping
website maintenace, marketing on the internet
learning something is always worthwhile



Table 101
How many staff does your fishing operation employ during the                Response Response
operating season?                                                            Percent   Total

         1 to 5                                                              54.2%      13

        5 to 10                                                              8.3%       2

       10 to 15                                                              12.5%      3

       15 to 20                                                              8.3%       2

       20 to 25                                                              4.2%       1

       25 to 30                                                              4.2%       1

       Over 30                                                               8.3%       2




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                   264
Ownership Structure
Table 102
Please select the option below that best describes the corporate Response Response
structure of your fishing operation.                              Percent   Total
             Sole
                                                                 20.8%       5
   proprietorship
    Family owned
                                                                 29.2%       7
    and operated
    Incorporated                                                 45.8%      11
           Limited
                                                                  4.2%       1
      partnership



Table 103
                                                                Response Response
Do you have private investors in your fishing operation?
                                                                 Percent   Total
          Yes                                                    16.7%       4

           No                                                    83.3%      20




Access and Travel to Operations
Table 104
                                                                Response Response
What is your season of operation?
                                                                 Percent   Total
 Summer (April -
                                                                 41.7%      10
    September)
Winter (October -
                                                                  0%         0
         March)
    Contractually                                                 0%         0

      Year-round                                                  4.2%       1

            Other                                                54.2%      13




Table 105
                                                                Response Response
How do your guests get to your fishing operation?
                                                                 Percent   Total
       Drive                                                     12.5%       3

 Drive or fly                                                    12.5%       3

    Fly Only                                                      75%       18




John St. Louis Consulting                                                        265
Table 106
Does your fishing operation have an airstrip, an airstrip and                           Response Response
floatplane access or is it floatplane only?                                              Percent   Total

         Airstrip                                                                          0%             0
      Airstrip and
                                                                                         38.1%            8
       floatplane
       Floatplane
                                                                                         61.9%           13
              only



Table 107
Approximately, how long does it take to access your facility                            Response Response
from the nearest airport that has jet service?                                           Percent   Total

        1/2 hour                                                                         14.3%            3

          1 hour                                                                         52.4%           11

       1 ½ hours                                                                          9.5%            2

         2 hours                                                                         14.3%            3

       2 ½ hours                                                                          4.8%            1
        3 or more
                                                                                          4.8%            1
           hours



Fishing Preferences of Clientele
Table 108
Over the past 5 seasons, have you noticed any trends developing in the
preferred style of fishing of your guests? For example, are more guests fly-
fishing or gear fishing and fly-fishing on the same trip? If not, please state that
you haven't noticed any trends developing.
 #     Responses
 1    fly fishing is increasing
 2    n/a
 3    more fly - fishing
 4    this is only my second year. but i mostly see guests deep water trole with baited hooks. very
      succesful.
 5    n/a
 6    no change
 7    More heading towards fly fishing
 8    no trends
 9    Trend is towards fly fishing
 10   no
 11   haven't noticed any trends developing
 12   no trend
 13   None
 14   no trends
 15   Many guests love fly fishing, but "trolling the hardware lunkers" is still a popular method of fishing
      (ie, trolling).
 16   moving to fly fishing



John St. Louis Consulting                                                                                      266
 17   n/a
 18   lot more people trying fly fishing
 19   no changes
 20   no
 21   I haven't noticed any trend developing
 22   More people are curious about fly fishing, but do not know how to do it. Training for all guides
      would be beneficial
 23   No
 24   fly fishing interest is increasing



Table 109
Do you feel that promoting "catch and release" gives your                               Response Response
operation a competitive advantage?                                                       Percent   Total

              Yes                                                                        58.3%           14

                  No                                                                     41.7%           10




Table 110
Please indicate the percentage of your clients who
                                                                           Mean             Response Total
prefer to fish using the following technique(s).
    Fly fishing
                                                                             21                    17
          only
  Gear fishing
                                                                            71.3                   21
          only
  Fly and gear
                                                                            46.1                   14
       fishing




Product and Service Offerings and Development
Table 111
Within the next two seasons, do you intend to offer new                                 Response Response
experiences, other than fishing, to your future guests?                                  Percent   Total

              Yes                                                                        25%             6

                  No                                                                     54.2%           13

           Maybe                                                                         20.8%           5


If “Yes” or “Maybe”, what new experience(s) do you intend to offer?

Table 112
Lodging, full service accommodations
Winter adventure
hunting
Snowmobile, skiing, winter sport tournaments
Hunting, if we can get permits to do so
possibly camping packages if proper approval is given regarding my outfitters license




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                                    267
working/looking on ideas - birding/ beginner rock climbing
kayaking and conoeing
Big game outfitting
Need training on how to change to offer these new experiences



Table 113
Would you be interested in expanding your service/product             Response Response
offerings in the future?                                               Percent   Total

           Yes                                                          50%        12

            No                                                          25%         6

        Maybe                                                           25%         6


If “Yes” or “Maybe”, please indicate what kind of new service/product offering you would
like to be able to offer to your guests. If you are unsure, please type "unsure".

Table 114
fly in year round
New lodge location for winter aurora
unsure
hunting
unsure
full lodge facitity
hunting lodge
camping packages
unsure
Cultural inclusion
unsure
kayaking, naturalist, northern cooking
unsure



Table 115
What barriers/obstacles do you face when developing a new
                                                                      Response Response
service/product offering for your guests? Please check all that
                                                                       Percent   Total
apply.
           Lack of
     awareness of
                                                                       41.7%       10
         emerging
          markets
    Access to new
                                                                        50%        12
           capital
  Lack of qualified
                                                                        25%         6
             staff
           Lack of
        marketing                                                      54.2%       13
        resources
         Other(s)                                                      29.2%        7




John St. Louis Consulting                                                               268
Please list which “Others”.

Table 116
Political support from GNWT
na
goverment and aboriginal road blocks
not planning on offering new service
Licensing for hunting
approvals from local indian bands to allow me to camp
Financial capacity


Clientele Characteristics

Table 117
During the 2005 season, what was the average age of guests to Response Response
your fishing operation?                                        Percent   Total
    35 - 40 Years
                                                               8.3%       2
               old
    40 - 45 Years
                                                               12.5%      3
               old
    45 - 50 Years
                                                               41.7%      10
               old
    50 - 55 Years
                                                               16.7%      4
               old
    55 - 60 Years
                                                               16.7%      4
               old
    Other - please
                                                               4.2%       1
          specify



Table 118
Comparing your 2005 guest numbers to your year 2000
                                                              Response Response
numbers, has the average age of your guests been going up,
                                                               Percent   Total
going down, or remaining unchanged?
       Increased                                               16.7%      4

       Decreased                                               12.5%      3
       Remained
                                                               41.7%      10
      unchanged
      Don't know                                               29.2%      7




John St. Louis Consulting                                                     269
Table 119
                                                                                          Response
In general, please indicate the percentage of your guests that are... Mean
                                                                                            Total

                                                                           Male    83.3     23

                                                                        Female     17.8     20

                                                   Return (repeat) customers       56.6     20

                                                          On a family vacation     24.7     19

                                                    On a business related trip     12.9     18

                                       On a government business related trip       3.7      18

                            Members of a group of fishing friends on a holiday     43.8     20

                                                       Experienced fishermen       72.1     21

                                            Somewhat experienced fishermen         20.8     19

                                                     Complete fishing novices      13.6     18

                                                  Uninterested in fishing at all   1.7      17




John St. Louis Consulting                                                                      270
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John St. Louis Consulting                                                                   271
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John St. Louis Consulting                                                                   272