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					14 November 2001                               Page 1 of 320

              WEDNESDAY, 14 NOVEMBER 2001

                          ____



       PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

                          ____



The House met at 14:03.



The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to

observe a moment of silence for prayers or

meditation.



ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see

col 000.



 REFERRAL OF UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE CONTRIBUTIONS

              BILL TO PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE



                   (Draft Resolution)



The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam

Speaker, I move the draft resolution printed in my

name on the Order Paper, as follows:
14 November 2001                                 Page 2 of 320


 That, notwithstanding Rule 290(1), the

 Unemployment Insurance Contributions Bill [B 85 -

 2001] - (National Assembly - sec 77), upon its

 introduction, be referred to the Portfolio

 Committee on Labour for consideration and report,

 the Committee to have the power to confer with

 the Portfolio Committee on Finance.



Agreed to.



    ALARMING INCIDENCE OF CHILD RAPE AND ABUSE



             (Subject for Discussion)



The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, hon members, I

must, from the onset, say that I have been moved by

the manner in which South Africans, regardless of

gender, have spoken out and expressed outrage at

the reprehensible abuse of nine month old baby

Tsepang, and other children. The resounding

expression of revulsion by this nation is a good

sign as it shows that we are united in saying that

we shall not tolerate such barbaric behaviour.
14 November 2001                                  Page 3 of 320


There is clearly consensus that something is

seriously wrong if grandfathers, fathers, brothers

and uncles sexually molest their own flesh and

blood. The rape of a nine month old baby defies

description in any language, and, indeed, displays

moral depravity of the highest order. There is also

something seriously amiss when people forget the

very philosophy that has been the anchor of our

communities for decades, namely the principle that

any child is my child, and when a child who goes

out to play at a neighbour's house is found

murdered or raped.



As the Government we have done what we should. The

laws to fight this scourge exist and are being

implemented. As I said in this House last week

during Question Time, this Government has also

prioritised the rights of women and children, as

can be seen from the existence of the office on the

rights of the child, the office on the status of

women and the office on the status of disabled

persons. These programmes, located in the

Presidency, under the Minister in the Presidency,

are succeeding in their aims of actively promoting
14 November 2001                                  Page 4 of 320


the rights of women, children and people with

disabilities, as the most vulnerable sectors in our

communities.



It is because of the recognition of the importance

of these sectors, that they are located in the

Presidency and that there is a Minister dedicated

to this crucial responsibility and ensuring that

all Government programmes are aligned such that

they actively promote the advancement and

protection of the rights of these sectors. However,

the Government alone cannot eradicate this scourge

which resides within our communities. Each and

every one of us has a role to play.



As we all know, the apartheid history of this

country left behind a legacy of a serious breakdown

in the moral infrastructure of our society.

Apartheid brutalised everyone: its perpetrators,

its victims as well as its beneficiaries, through

the migrant labour and homeland systems. Apartheid

sowed the seeds for the breakdown of the

institution of the family. The breakdown in the

moral fibre manifests itself in many ways and in
14 November 2001                                  Page 5 of 320


all sectors of our society: rich and poor, urban

and rural, black and white, young and old. The

molestation of children and infants is a symptom of

this degeneration.



Among the manifestations of moral degeneration are

the following: the breakdown of parental control

over children in some families; the condoning of

deviant behaviour; a lack of respect for authority;

the present breaking of the law; lack of respect

for rules and regulations; crime and corruption;

abuse of alcohol and drugs; abuse of women and

children; lack of respect for the next person and,

indeed, for human life. Clearly, we need to do

something in our respective areas of influence to

restore morality and rebuild a protective

environment for the most vulnerable in our country.



In this vein, I would like to take this opportunity

to reiterate a call I made to men in our country

recently. Let us as men become positive role models

who are symbols of love, empathy and caring and

eradicate the stereotype that is developing that

men are abusers of the most vulnerable in our
14 November 2001                                  Page 6 of 320


society. Historically, men were known to protect

their loved ones, who felt safe in their company.

These days, some men are clearly becoming

``izinswelaboya'' [animals]. This must change. In

line with the theme of HIV/Aids campaigns last year

and this year, let me repeat that ``Men Can Make a

Difference''. Let us make this difference by

leading campaigns on eradicating violence of any

form against women and children.



Most importantly, we need to continue addressing

the question of the economic and social

vulnerability of women and girls in our society, as

this opens them up to abuse. Many women are

economically dependent on men and this makes them

reluctant to report abuses as this may lead to a

loss of financial support. Therefore, we need to

strengthen social support structures in our

communities which make it possible for women in

such situations to report abuse and leave abusive

relationships, in order to protect their children

and themselves. Women must have somewhere to run

to.
14 November 2001                                 Page 7 of 320


I cannot finish my address without commending the

hardworking officials in our criminal justice

system who are diligently implementing laws aimed

at ridding our society of sick individuals who

molest women and children. Allow me also to

congratulate communities, organisations and

individuals who are already blowing the whistle on

child abusers. The SA Democratic Teachers Union,

for example, deserves mention for exposing teachers

- some of them principals and deputy principals -

who abuse children entrusted to their care during

the day. The fact that child abusers are facing the

law - and that we are today debating this matter,

which has become public - shows that our

communities are vigilant. That needs to be

encouraged.



Once again, let me repeat my call for all of us to

revive in our communities the principle of ``Any

child is my child''. If we hear children crying,

children left alone and uncared for, or children

being abused in any way, let us speak out and

report the matter to the police. Let us recognise

that children have rights which should be respected
14 November 2001                                  Page 8 of 320


by all. No one will be allowed to get away with

abusing children, regardless of their position in

society.



It should become crystal clear to any potential

child abuser or would-be rapist that this

Government is determined to ensure that they face

the full might of the law. We are not going to sit

back and watch them destroy our future - our

children. When Parliament rises on Friday we, as

members of this House, should use the opportunity

to spread the message of moral renewal in our

constituencies and ensure that we remove hiding

places for criminals who prey on children.



As part of the national moral regeneration movement

that we are spearheading, I will be hosting a

summit early next year which will include

representatives of various sectors such as

political representatives, religious groups,

community leaders, the church, women, the youth,

the disabled, business, labour and traditional

healers. This great imbizo will enable us, as South

Africans, to take stock of the moral barometer of
14 November 2001                                  Page 9 of 320


our country and identify the critical factors that

are affecting the moral health of this nation. Its

objective is to establish a broad national

coalition across all sectors of society, and it

will chart the way forward for a mass-based moral

regeneration campaign which will ensure that

eventually the lines between right and wrong no

longer become blurred. If we work together, we can

defeat the monster and make our homes and streets

safe for our children. [Applause.]



Ms L M T XINGWANA: Madam Speaker, this is a great

opportunity for me to speak on the alarming

incidents of child rape and abuse throughout our

country.



A nine-month-old baby was raped and sodomised by

six men who stand accused in Upington today. The

baby has undergone extensive surgery and, according

to doctors, she still has to undergo three more

operations. She will have to carry a colostomy bag

for the rest of her life. Her 16-year old mother

was also a victim of statutory rape when she fell

pregnant at the age of 14 years, and her great
14 November 2001                                 Page 10 of 320


grandmother was a victim of rape in the same house.

The six men accused of raping the baby are in

custody and will be appearing in court on 23

November 2001.



A 14-month-old baby from Tweeling in the Free State

was raped by her two uncles. She also had to

undergo surgery and is now recuperating at her

home. The two uncles are in custody. A three-year

old girl was brutally raped by her father in

Tshirolwe village in the Northern Province. She

died on 29 October 2001. The father was arrested

and will appear in court on 28 December 2001. A

four-year old girl - also from the Northern

Province - was allegedly raped by her grandmother's

boyfriend. The man is also in custody and will soon

be appearing in court.



More reports of sexual assaults in Rouxville, a

small rural town in the Free State, have once again

shocked the country in the past week. A 13-year old

schoolgirl from IQ School in Rouxville was raped by

a 37-year old truck driver at gunpoint. She was on

her way, early in the morning, to school with a
14 November 2001                                 Page 11 of 320


young boy of 13 years, who was able to run away and

called the police. When the police found him in the

forest with the little girl, he was busy raping

her. He fired three shots at the police, but

unfortunately for him, they were able to arrest him

and he is now in custody.



Four young 14-year-old girls were given a lift by

two white men. They were coming from school - the

Uitkoms Community school in Rouxville. The two

white men drove them to a sportsground nearby and

bought them liquor. When they thought that they

were drunk, they raped them and thereafter offered

them R50 or R20 to buy their silence. The girls

went home and reported the case to the police. The

two men are now in custody and will be appearing in

court soon.



Another 10 year old girl, also from Rouxville, was

raped by a 14-year-old boy living next door. The

boy is still a minor and has been given R300 bail.

He has been released into the care of his parent.

In Bloemfontein, at the Joe Slovo informal

settlement, an eight-year-old girl was raped by a
14 November 2001                                 Page 12 of 320


white man. She was sent by her grandmother to go

and buy something at his shop. The man will be

appearing in court on 26 November 2001. More cases

have been reported in the North West and the

Eastern Cape, where 20 girls were raped and

impregnated by their teacher. [Interjections.] The

list is long and endless. It involves both black

and white rapists. Rapists do not know any colour.

[Interjections.]



Le nto yenze kwacaca mhlophe ukuba sijongene

nesihelegu esigqibe ilizwe lonke. [This has made it

clear that we are faced with a tragic situation

which is world-wide.]



The reports, however, are encouraging, because

people are breaking the culture of silence. People

have confidence in this Government. Our Government

is acting with speed and has caught the

perpetrators of these horrible atrocities.



We also want to urge the SABC not to promote the

abuse of women through the violent and pornographic
14 November 2001                                 Page 13 of 320


films they shown to our children. [Applause.] These

reduce our women to mere sex objects.



We also want to object to sexist advertising, also

by the SABC and various other companies, where

women are used to advertise liquor, such as in the

Hansa Pilsner advertisement. And again women are

portrayed there as sex objects.



We would like to warn all our leaders, especially

the Leader of the Opposition, their silence has

been deafening on this issue. [Interjections.] We

want to make it very clear that this is not a

racial issue, but a national issue.

[Interjections.]



The SPEAKER: Order!



Ms L M T XINGWANA: We want to make it clear that

because it is black children who are involved, it

does not mean that the opposition should keep

quiet.
14 November 2001                                 Page 14 of 320


We would like to call on all our traditional and

religious leaders to take up this cause. We believe

that many of them have already started, especially

in Upington where they are in the forefront of

mobilising our communities in support of the family

of the nine-month-old baby. We want to encourage

all our traditional leaders, all over the country,

to take up this cause.



We also want to expose the lie and the myth that

sleeping with a virgin or a little child will cure

one of HIV/Aids. We believe that the heroes of

HIV/Aids are those men and women who have accepted

their situation and status with responsibility and

made it a point that they strive to protect the

nation, and not spread the virus. Those are the

heroes of our struggle and our war on HIV/Aids.



 We also want to indicate to women, as mothers,

that this also has something to do with how we

bring up our children. Drugs and alcohol are

implicated in these atrocities. We are the ones

that must stand up and expose our next-door

neighbours who are involved in illegal shebeens and
14 November 2001                                 Page 15 of 320


also sell drugs; even to little children. We are

the ones that must stand up and ensure that we

bring up our children, both boys and girls, and

make sure that we inculcate in them respect and

love for one another. [Applause.] I think it is

especially important that we teach our boys to

respect their sisters, and from there to respect

girls, women as well as human life.



We also want to appeal to HIV/Aids activists to go

out and make sure that our people are informed and

educated about HIV/Aids. We all know that there is

no cure for HIV/Aids at this point in time.

Therefore, we need to go out and inform our people

about this. We also want to ask our traditional

healers to go out and educate the public about the

fact that there is no cure for HIV/Aids and that

abusing women and raping children is not going to

cure anybody.



We commend Kimberley Hospital and its doctors who

went out to expose this lie. We also commend the

traditional healer from Kimberley, Mashia, who also

stated publicly that there is no cure for HIV/Aids
14 November 2001                                 Page 16 of 320


and that sleeping with virgins and little children

will not help to cure this disease.



I would like, therefore, to add to what the hon the

Deputy President has said, that this is an

important issue facing the nation. We commend the

Deputy President for organising a summit or imbizo

for early next year to address this issue. We also

urge the leaders of the opposition parties to

support this cause and to support the nation. We

would like to reiterate the fact that this debate

must be supported by all of us. It must be firmly

supported, particularly in the light of the need

for abhorrent acts of child rape and abuse to be

brought forth for serious discussion and for us to

make sure that the perpetrators are apprehended.



We want to make sure that no bail is given to these

alleged rapists. We do not understand how

grandfathers, especially a sixty-six year old

grandfather, can be a party to these atrocities.

We, therefore, want to call on the nation as a

whole, that is mothers, fathers and parents, to go

out and say: Enough is enough. Let us work together
14 November 2001                                 Page 17 of 320


for the good of South Africa and for the future of

our children. [Applause.]



The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, I want to remind

you that the issue that we are debating is not one

about black or white. [Applause.] No community in

South Africa is immune. No child is immune from

what is going on. [Interjections.] Equally, the

perpetrators are also black and white. So please

let us remember this. We are trying to address this

not as the Government or the opposition or party

this or party that. We are trying to come together

as a nation to expose a problem and collectively

address it. So, I appeal to you to think of the

children we are talking about. [Applause.]



Adv P S SWART: Madam Speaker, this is not a

political issue. I wish to thank the hon the Deputy

President for his message in particular. I

requested this debate for one purpose only.

[Interjections.] Yes, hon member, I requested this

debate to enable Parliament, as a unit that is

constituted by our political leaders and Cabinet in

particular, to face South Africa, look our nation
14 November 2001                                Page 18 of 320


in the eye and acknowledge our obligation to do

whatever it will take to end this ongoing

destruction of the lives of our children. Apart

from murder, the rape of an innocent child is the

most hellish manifestation of a society that is

rotten to the core. When we note with horror the

rape of babies as young as nine months these deeds

are often nothing less than extended death

sentences to the victims.



I also have some personal obligations. I stand here

as a man and on behalf of all decent men, today, I

apologise to our mothers and children for these

acts done by demons disguised as men. For no decent

man would commit such atrocities. I could call them

animals, but that would demean animals. The true

yardstick for the moral values of a society is the

way in which it treats its children. We fail

miserably. A decent society cherishes and respects

its children.



Ek staan ook hier as 'n eggenoot en vader van twee

dogters. Toe God in Sy wysheid my 'n vrou en twee

dogters geskenk het, het ek daarmee saam baie
14 November 2001                                 Page 19 of 320


spesifieke verpligtings ontvang. Behalwe om hulle

lief te hê, getrou te wees en te respekteer is daar

'n besondere verpligting om hulle te alle tye met

alles wat ek in my het te beskerm, en dit is wat my

hartseer maak.



In 'n pragtige land met pragtige mense behoort ons

lewens gevul te wees met die vreugde van liefde en

geluk, maar die teendeel is waar. Daagliks vrees ek

vir die veiligheid van my dierbares. Wanneer ons

toelaat dat nie alleen ons strate nie, maar dikwels

ook ons huise, plekke van verskrikking vir ons

kinders word, neem ons hulle kindwees weg, die

grootste onreg wat volwassenes kan pleeg.

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)



[I also stand here as a husband and father of two

daughters. When God in His wisdom granted me a wife

and two children, I received very specific

obligations along with them. Apart from loving

them, being faithful to and respecting them, there

is a particular obligation at all times to protect

them with all I have within me, and this is what

makes me so sad.
14 November 2001                                 Page 20 of 320


In a beautiful country with beautiful people our

lives ought to be filled with the joy of love and

happiness, but the opposite is true. I fear daily

for the safety of my loved ones. When we allow not

only our streets, but often also our homes, to

become places of terror for our children, we

deprive them of their childhood, the biggest

injustice adults can commit.]



However, being a parliamentarian and the National

Assembly being the forum for today's debate, my

particular obligation is as such. Although it may

be true that our first line of both offence and

defence in this fight are the Minister of Safety

and Security and the Minister for Justice and

Constitutional Development it would also be a

foolish assumption. These horrific crimes go far

beyond those particular line functions and touch

all aspects of society. Today I cannot underline

enough the necessity for an integrated approach to

successfully wage this war against these demon

rapists.
14 November 2001                                 Page 21 of 320


Ons kan die oortreders vang, en ek bring hulde aan

ons toegewyde polisie; ons kan hulle voor ons howe

bring en lewenslange vonnisse oplê, wat ons howe in

die meeste gevalle doen en waarvoor ek dankbaar is,

maar permanente sukses sal afhang van die herstel

van die morele basis van ons samelewing.

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)



[We can apprehend the offenders, and I pay tribute

to our dedicated police; we can bring them before

our courts and hand down life sentences, which our

courts do in most cases and for which I am

grateful, but lasting success will depend on our

restoring the moral fibre of our society.]



To repair this, we need the overall assistance of

NGOs, welfare organisations and churches. Frankly,

when I look at the statistics, it is difficult to

accept the amounts of money from the proceeds of

the lotto going to sports organisations which, in a

very real way, disempower these role-players.



Wanneer ek van 'n geïntegreerde aanslag praat,

verwys ek nie alleen na onderwys waar ons kinders
14 November 2001                                 Page 22 of 320


op hulle regte gewys word nie, maar ook die

opvoeding van die gemeenskap in geheel - ook

volwassenes - ten opsigte van die regte van kinders

en ons verantwoordelikheid om hulle te respekteer

en te beskerm. My kollega die agb lid Cupido sal

later in die debat aandag gee aan die maatskaplike

verantwoordelikhede in ons gemeenskap.



Wanneer ek na justisie verwys, is daar ook 'n ander

verantwoordelikheid. Dit is die manier waarop

hierdie jong slagoffers gehanteer word wanneer

hulle sake voorkom. Die DA is geboekstaaf dat ons

reeds jare lank pleit vir die daarstelling van

voldoende kinderhowe asook geriewe om slagoffers te

beskerm wanneer getuienis gelewer word. My kollega

die agb lid Waters sal daarna verwys. (Translation

of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)



[When I speak of an integrated onslaught, I do not

only refer to education, where our children are

informed of their rights, but also to the education

the community as a whole - adults included -

regarding childrens' rights and our responsibility

to respect and protect them. Later on in the debate
14 November 2001                                 Page 23 of 320


my colleague the hon member Cupido will deal with

the social responsibilities in our community.



When I refer to justice, there is another

responsibility as well. It is the way in which

these young victims are treated when their cases

come up for trial. The DA is on record as having

advocated for years the establishment of sufficient

children's courts, as well as facilities to protect

victims when evidence is being given. My colleague

the hon member Waters will be referring to this.]



During the year 2000, 21 438 cases of rape and

attempted rape against children were reported. Only

1 797 or 8,38% of these   resulted in convictions.

Surely, this must indicate something very wrong

within the system. It is my contention that the

problem is the way in which these innocent victims,

who often do not understand what happened to them,

are handled by the police and justice department

during the investigations and court cases. I am not

criticising.
14 November 2001                                 Page 24 of 320


While the first line of action lies in particular

with our Child Protection and Sexual Offences

Units, it is indeed disturbing that we only have 30

Child Protection Units in the whole country, with

only 368 police officers deployed out of a

complement of 504. When we note the occurrence of

rapes of minor children, with more than 31 000

cases reported in the past 18 months, this does not

make sense.



Today, I call on the Minister of Safety and

Security to place at least one dedicated police

officer at each and every police station to see to

the protection of our children. Such a person

should be well versed not only in police skills but

also in specialised training to cover an

understanding of the development and maturity of

the child; a child's response to trauma;

communication with a child, including interviewing

and listening skills; ability to offer expert

assistance to a traumatised child and, at least,

some medical knowledge.
14 November 2001                                 Page 25 of 320


These skills should also be available at our

courts. Whilst restoring the moral fabric of our

society, which our hon Deputy President called for,

the only interim deterrent to perpetrators of these

crimes will be the prescribed life sentence. With

the above in place we will see more convictions.



Our children are the building blocks of the future

of this country. Let us treat them with compassion,

and understand our need to respect and protect them

at all times, and ensure them a happy and secure

childhood.



Kom ons, as Parlement oor politieke grense heen,

neem hande met mekaar en die samelewing daar buite.

Die samelewing daar buite is 'n onmisbare deelnemer

in die herstel van hierdie probleem in ons

gemeenskap. Kom ons bou 'n vreedsame en kommervrye

gemeenskap in 'n land wat mooi is en waar ons

gelukkig kan wees, maar kom ons as Parlement wys

ook met dade en nie alleen met woorde nie, dat

hierdie tipe oortredings nie in hierdie mooi land

van ons geduld sal word nie. [Applous.]

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
14 November 2001                                 Page 26 of 320


[Let us, as Parliament across political barriers,

join hands with each other and with society out

there. Society out there is an essential

participant in the correction of this problem in

our community. Let us build a peaceful and carefree

community in a country that is beautiful and where

we can be happy, but let us as Parliament show by

way of deeds, and not only with words, that this

type of offence will not be tolerated in this

beautiful country of ours. [Applause.]]



Mnu V B NDLOVU: Somlomo, mhlonishwa Sekela-

Mongameli, bahlonishwa oNgqongqoshe, malungu

ahloniphekile ale Ndlu, kukhona abantu abagula

ngamakhanda, abacabanga ukuthi ukudlwengula

izingane kungukuvimbela iNgculazi noma ukungenwa

yisifo seNgculazi.



Ngithi kumhlonishwa uSekela-Mongameli singakhuluma

size sifike noma kuphi kodwa uma umuntu ehlanya,

usuke ehlanya nje, angefaniswe nomunye umuntu.

Masizame ukukhuluma nalaba abasacabanga ukukwenza

lokho ukuze bazi ukuthi uma bekwenza lokho, kuyinto

engabuyiseli futhi akwakhi, kube kungeke kumsize
14 November 2001                                Page 27 of 320


lowo muntu oguliswa yileso sifo. Ngeke abe ngcono,

kunalokho uyogula aze afe kunokuthi abe ngcono.



Okwesibili, indaba enkulu manje ukuthi - angazi

noma yingoba sibhidlikelwa yimizi yethu yini

emakhaya - kuyabonakala ukuthi abanye abazali

kithina abakwazi ukuzibheka kahle izingane zabo.

Baye baze bahambe nazo baye lapho bephuza khona,

badle amanzi amponjwana nazo. Ngithi-ke mina uma

singakakukhulumi lokho njengabantu izinto ngeke

zihambe kahle. Umuntu nomuntu ozele ingane

akayiphathe njengoba naye ayephethwe unina. Kuzoba

ngcono uma abazali bekwazi lokho. Kodwa, uma

abazali bezokhohlwa ukuthi lezi zingane abazizele

ngezabo, baphilise okwenyoka yona ezala maqedane

ife, kuyingozi lokho ngoba kusho ukuthi lezi

zingane ezikhulayo nezizalwayo namhlanje ngeke zibe

nalo ikusasa. Ngakho-ke, uma singenabo abazali,

masakhe abazali ukuze thina esilapha eNdlini sihole

abantu abaphilileyo, hhayi abagula emakhanda futhi

abangakwazi ukuzala izingane bazifukamele.



Kukhulunywa ngamadoda lapha, kuthiwa yiwo

adlwengula izingane. Mina ngithi cha, hhayi,
14 November 2001                                 Page 28 of 320


ngiyaphika impela. Ngiyindoda ngempela mina kodwa

angizange ngidlwengule noyedwa umuntu. Ngakho

makungashiwo ukuthi amadoda lawo. [Ihlombe.]

Amalungu akhona lapha ayiNdlu ehloniphekile, kanti

kukhona namadoda ahloniphekile ngaphandle. Ngakho-

ke ukusetshenziswa kwaleli gama kuthiwa ``la

madoda'' kuze kuthiwe ngamadoda wonke abukeka

engemahle emhlabeni ngoba ayadlwengula, kuyigama

elibi lelo. Akushiwo ukuthi yilezi zigebengu,

imigulukudu nezigelekeqe okuyizona ezenza lokho

ukuze kubhekwane nazo. Kufuneka kuyekwe ukuthi

kukhonjwe noma ubani. Umhlonishwa uSekela-Mongameli

ngeke akuvuma nje ukuthi kuthiwe, njengedoda, naye-

ke uyabandakanywa nalabo. Mina-ke, njengendoda, cha

angikuvumi impela lokho. Ngakho mina ngithi laba

bantu abayeke ukuthi ngamadoda. Abathi yilezi

zigebengu, imigodoyi, ukuze amaphoyisa abhekane

nezigebengu nemigodoyi, angavimbeli wonke amadoda

nanjengathi nje, athembekile.



Uma ngikhuluma ngendoda, ngikhuluma ngendoda

ezaziyo ukuthi iyindoda. Ngithi kumhlonishwa

uSekela-Mongameli mina-ke uma ngikhuluma ngendoda

ngiyehlukanisa. Kukhona abantu besilisa bese kuba
14 November 2001                                 Page 29 of 320


khona amadoda. Lapha-ke ngikhuluma ngamadoda,

amadoda aziyo ukuthi ekhaya kuyadliwa, njengoba

kade esho nje umhlonishwa uSekela-Mongameli ethi

kufukanyelwa izingane futhi kufukanyelwe wonke

umuzi ekhaya. Babhekelwa bonke abantu ukuthi

baphephile. Uma kukhona umnumzane ekhaya, kukhona

indoda, kufanele kwaziwe ukuthi singethintwe muntu

ngoba kukhona umnumzane, kukhona indoda.



Kodwa uma sikhuluma ngalaba bantu besilisa-ke,

yibo-ke laba esikhuluma ngabo namhlanje. Bangabantu

abangazi lutho olunye lokufukamela umndeni

nezingane futhi bangabantu abazi ukuthi izingane

azilutho. Bangaphezu kwegama elithi ``izilwane.''

Angifuni mina babizwe ngezilwane ngoba ngabe

sidlala ngazo izilwane. Izilwane zihlonipha kabi,

azikwenzi lokhu esikhuluma ngakho. Ngakho-ke

akufuneki ukuthi sifanise abantu abagangayo,

imigulukudu nezigelekeqe, siyifanise nezilwane

ngoba izilwane zingcono kakhulu. Uma zizihlalele

laphaya ehlathini, zizihlalela kahle nje kungabikho

lutho, ngaphandle-ke uma umuntu esuka eyodlala

ngazo-ke bese nazo zimdlala.
14 November 2001                                 Page 30 of 320


Mina ngiyahlupheka ngoba mhlawumbe laba bantu

esikhuluma ngabo abakwazi ukushela. Ukushela umuntu

kuyinto enhle kabi. Kuyinto enhle kabi nje ukuvuma

komuntu athi: ngiyakuthanda sibanibani. [Uhleko.]

Kodwa laba bantu esikhuluma ngabo lapha kusho

ukuthi abakwazi lokho. Inkinga enkulu uma umuntu

engakwazi ukuxoxa nomunye umuntu ongaphesheya

kwakhe ngoba kusho ukuthi lowo muntu unenkinga

yokuphila nabantu. Manje lowo muntu uyovalelwaphi-

ke ngoba nomhlonishwa uSkosana uzothi amajele akhe

agcwele?



Inkinga ekhona ukuthi sinabantu abangakwazi

ukubhekana nabanye abantu, abangakwazi ukuxoxa

kahle nabo. Yileyo nkinga esinayo lapha. Umuntu uma

edlwengula ingane enezinyanga eziyisishiyagalombili

usuke esho ukuthini ngempela? Kusho ukuthini

ngempela lokho ngoba ayikwazi ukukhuluma, ayikwazi

kwenza lutho? Uma-ke manje singeke sikwazi ukuhlala

nabanye abanumzane ngoba kukhona izingane ezigaqayo

lapho, osekuzodingeka zibalekiswe lezo zingane

ngoba kufike thina, hhawu, kuyinto embi kabi leyo.

Kuyinto embi engamukeleki, engafuneki futhi

ewubunuku obuphindwe kaningi.
14 November 2001                                 Page 31 of 320


Ngithi-ke mina kumhlonishwa uSekela-Mongameli

masingabi ngabantu besilisa, njengoba bengishilo

ukuthi kukhona umehluko phakathi kwabantu besilisa

namadoda. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)



[Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Speaker, Deputy President,

Ministers and hon members of this House, there are

people who are psychologically disturbed and who

think that raping babies will protect them from

contracting Aids.



I would like to say to the Deputy President that we

can talk endlessly about this but the fact remains

that if one is mad, one is simply mad, and cannot

be compared with normal people. We should try to

speak to people who are planning to do this, so

that they will know that if they do it, it will be

of no use because it does not help to protect the

person who is infected with the disease. He will

not recover, instead he will ail until he dies.



 Secondly, the big issue is that I do not know

whether it is because our homes are breaking down.

It seems as if some parents are unable to look
14 November 2001                                 Page 32 of 320


after their children at home. Sometimes they go

with their children to where they drink and drink

with them. What I am saying is that if we do not

discuss these things as human beings, things will

not go well. Everyone with a child must treat it in

the way that he or she was treated by his or her

mother. It would be better if parents understood

that. It will be dangerous if parents forget that

the children that they have given birth to are

theirs, and start behaving like a snake which dies

after giving birth. That will mean that those

growing children and babies that are being born

will not have a future. Therefore, if we do not

have parents, let us build parents so that we in

this House lead healthy people, not people who are

mad and fail to look after their children.



We are talking about men here. It is said that they

are the ones who rape children. I say no, I

disagree. I am a man but I have never raped anyone.

Therefore, it must not be said that those are men.

[Applause.] Hon members here constitute an

honourable House, and there are honourable men

outside. Therefore, the use of the words "these
14 November 2001                                Page 33 of 320


men" which causes people in the world to look at

men in a bad light, is not suitable for the

rapists. It must be said that people who commit

these atrocities are these criminals and gangsters

so that we can deal with them. People should stop

pointing fingers at anyone. The hon Deputy

President will not like the idea that as a man he

is involved in doing these things. I as a man do

not agree. Therefore, I say they should stop saying

that "men are the ones who commit these crimes".

They must say crimes are committed by "these

criminals, these dogs" so that police will deal

with them, and let honourable men like me go.



When I talk about a man I am talking about someone

who knows himself that he is a man. To the Deputy

President I say I am making a distinction here. We

have males and men. Here I am talking about men,

men who know that people at home need food, as the

Deputy President has said that children need to be

protected as well as the whole family at home. A

man ensures that all people in the family are okay.

If there is a man in the family, members of the
14 November 2001                               Page 34 of 320


family know that they will not be touched by anyone

because there is a man in the house.



Now these males that we are discussing today, do

not know anything about protecting a family and

children and they are the people who believe that

children are nothing. They are far beneath the word

"animals". I do not want us to call them animals

because we will be soiling animals. Animals have

respect, they do not do what we are talking about

here. Therefore, we should not liken criminals and

gangsters to animals because animals are far better

than they. When they are in the forest, they stay

there peacefully, except if one goes to them and

teases them, then they respond the same way.



I am worried because I am thinking that maybe these

people that we are talking about here are unable to

declare their love for a woman. Declaring one's

love for a woman is a very good thing. It is a good

thing when someone accepts that declaration and

says: I love you, so and so. [Laughter.] It means

that the people that we are discussing here do not

know that. It is a big problem if a person cannot
14 November 2001                                 Page 35 of 320


talk to someone sitting opposite him, it means that

that person has a problem communicating with other

human beings. Where are we going to lock up that

person because even the hon Skosana will say his

prisons are full?



The problem that we have is that we have people who

cannot live well with others, and who cannot even

talk well to other people. That is the problem we

have here. If a person rapes an eight-month-old

baby, what does that person really mean? Is it

because a baby cannot talk? It cannot do anything?

Now if we cannot stay with other people just

because there are crawling babies in that place,

they should be hidden just because we have arrived,

Hawu! That is a very bad thing! It is bad and

unacceptable. It is more that dirty.



 I would like to say to the hon Deputy President

that we should not have males, as I have said that

there is a difference between males and men.]



Let us stand up as men. Let us be real men. I think

that we must preach that those people who are
14 November 2001                                 Page 36 of 320


raping and molesting children and their wives must

know that they do not belong to the category of

men. Therefore, they must not be called men. They

should be called something else. Those who are

developing languages must start looking for a word

to describe these people. [Applause.] It is very

important that we, as men, must protect ourselves

because we are not in the category of rapists.

Therefore, we must not be lumped together with

these animals. It will help us, therefore, to know

that all of us agree that whatever we do as

Government, structures of society and members of

the public, we should help the police to apprehend

whoever is still harbouring the criminals.

[Applause.]



Mr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD: Madam Speaker, the Sowetan

of 5 November 2001 reports as follows, and I quote:



 Shocking reports of the violation of children

 dominated the media last week. A nine-month-old

 baby was raped by six men at Upington. A 14-

 month-old baby was raped at Tweeling last

 Tuesday. A three-year- old girl was treated in
14 November 2001                                Page 37 of 320


 hospital after being raped, allegedly by her

 grandfather. A man appeared in the Protea

 Magistrate's Court for raping a six-year-old

 girl. A four-year-old girl died after she was

 allegedly raped in the Northern Province last

 week. A two-year-old girl was allegedly raped by

 her father three days before her mother, who had

 Aids, died of illnesses related to the disease in

 Dobsonville. A 12-year-old girl tested HIV-

 positive a year after she was allegedly raped by

 her stepfather.



As the political fathers and mothers of the nation,

we need to ask ourselves whether this is the kind

of freedom we envisaged for our children when it

was announced that the South African people were

free at last - free with the Constitution and the

Bill of Rights which afford our children the

opportunity to grow up in a protected, normal and

open society.



In order to take care of the children of this

country, the Child Care Amendment Act, Act 13 of

1999, came into operation on 1 January 2000. The
14 November 2001                                 Page 38 of 320


main purpose of the amendments was to provide for

the establishment of secure care facilities and for

the prohibition of the sexual exploitation of

children. The Minister of Social Development,

together with the Minister for Justice and

Constitutional Development, requested the SA Law

Commission to appoint a project committee to review

the Child Care Act and draft comprehensive child

care legislation compatible with the provisions of

the South African Constitution, the United Nations

Convention on the Rights of the Child and the

African Charter on the Rights and Welfare of the

Child.



Let us just look at a few aspects contained in

these documents. Firstly, they recognise that a

child occupies a unique and privileged position in

African society and that for the full and

harmonious development of its personality, the

child should grow up in a family environment, and

in an atmosphere of happiness, love and

understanding. Secondly, it recognises that the

child, due to the needs of his physical and mental

development, requires particular care with regard
14 November 2001                                 Page 39 of 320


to health, physical, mental, moral and social

development. It also recognises that the child

requires legal protection in conditions of freedom,

dignity and security.



States which are party to the African Charter are

to adopt specific legislative, administrative,

social and educational measures to protect the

child from all forms of torture, inhuman or

degrading treatment and especially physical or

mental injury or abuse, neglect and maltreatment,

including sexual abuse, while in the care of its

parents. Protective measures must include effective

procedures for the establishment of special

monitoring units to provide the necessary support

for the child and those caring for it as well as

other forms of prevention, treatment and follow-up

of instances of child abuse and neglect.



Participants to the charter should take appropriate

measures to eliminate harmful social and cultural

practices that affect the welfare, dignity and

normal growth and development of the child,

especially those customs and practices that are
14 November 2001                                 Page 40 of 320


prejudicial to the health or life of the child, and

those that are discriminatory to the child on the

grounds of sex and other status.



In die lig van die 31 780 gevalle van

kinderverkragting gedurende die afgelope 18 maande,

doen die Nuwe NP 'n beroep op godsdienstige groepe,

burgerlike organisasies, nie-regeringsorganisasies

en gemeenskapsgebaseerde organisasies om die

Regering te steun in sy poging om dié misdade te

beveg. Ons meen dat spesiale howe vir seksuele

misdrywe met multidissiplinêre steunsentrums

uitgebrei behoort te word om slagoffers van

seksuele misdrywe te bemagtig. (Translation of

Afrikaans paragraph follows.)



[In the light of the 31 780 cases of child rape

during the past 18 months, the New NP appeals to

religious groups, civic organisations, non-

governmental organisations and community-based

organisations to support the Government in its

effort to combat these crimes.
14 November 2001                                 Page 41 of 320


We feel that special courts for sexual offences

must be extended by means of multidisciplinary

support centres to empower victims of sexual

abuse.]



In conclusion, if we say we believe in the future

of our country, it also implies that we believe in

our duty to look after and care for the future of

our country, namely our children. Let us not make

this the responsibility of other people. Let us all

become part of this process. [Applause.]



Miss O N MNDENDE: Madam Speaker, Deputy President,

and hon members, our society views with concern the

increasing incidents of child rape which have come

to plague our country. It is indicative of a sick

society.



An animal's natural instinct is to protect its

offspring. It is therefore incomprehensible and

alarming when humans project themselves as a

species that preys on its own progeny. These

twisted monsters are excited by the helpless pleas,

cries, agonised gasps and uncomprehending,
14 November 2001                                 Page 42 of 320


horrified stares of their offspring victims whom

they violate with perverted impunity. Perhaps these

monsters, with their twisted minds, think that when

a child is crying or gasping, it is giggling or

laughing. We have a responsibility to deal with

these psychopaths.



It is a matter of serious concern that in this

House our criminal justice system is apparently

impotent to combat this and many other crimes. The

characterisation of our criminal justice system as

ineffective is not intended to score cheap party-

political points. It is a mother's agonised appeal

to our natural instincts of self-preservation as a

people, to take up our responsibilities and create

a normal and safe environment for our children.



I am perturbed at the erosion of decency and the

perceptible decline of the moral fibre of the South

African society. This social degeneration does not

happen in a vacuum. It underpins the collapse of

social, economic, cultural and religious systems

that sustain a society. We as leaders,

spokespersons and role-models in our diverse
14 November 2001                                 Page 43 of 320


societies should stand up and fight against this.

Society demands of us to account for our inability

to give them a safe environment.



It is not enough to report these deeds in the media

and then lament about them in our drawing rooms and

erudite seminars. We have to introduce visible and

effective measures to curtail brutality and

depravity. It is now clear that the intellectual

refinement and sophistication that informed the

drafting of our Bill or Rights, did not foresee a

situation where our society would have such an

audacious influence. Our law enforcement agencies

and criminal justice system were never designed to

deal with these miscreants and therefore they are

at a loss as to how they should handle them.



Radical situations call for radical thought and

solutions. Let us begin to think likewise.

Criminals terrorise us because they know they will

get away with it. They know that we are concerned

about their human rights, which entitles them to

VIP status in prisons and early parole. People on
14 November 2001                                 Page 44 of 320


the ground demand the death penalty. Let us revisit

this deterrent by way of a referendum. [Applause.]



Mrs M P COETZEE-KASPER: Ke a leboha Mme Speaker le

Motlatsa Presidente, ha ke fumane sebaka puisanong

ena ya masisa-pelo kajeno. Masisa-pelo a peto ya

bomme le, holoholo, masea le bana. [Thank you,

Madam Speaker and Deputy President, for the

opportunity I have to speak in this very emotional

debate on the heart breaking situation where women,

and more especially babies and children, are being

raped.]



Ons is kwaad. Ons is seer en ons kan nie verstaan

hoe enige mens dit aan 'n kleine kindjie kan doen,

wat daardie mans in Upington voorverlede naweek

gedoen het nie. Dit is nie die enigste voorval van

sy soort nie. Ek weet van nog twee klein

kindertjies wat in my provinsie verkrag is, al het

dit nie die koerante gehaal nie. So is daar nog

baie sulke gevalle.



Hoe moet 'n mens dit verstaan? In die eerste plek

moet ons onthou dat ons maar onlangs uit 'n bestel
14 November 2001                                 Page 45 of 320


gekom het wat mense as gevolg van hul kleur as niks

gereken het nie. Ons het maar eers in 1995 begin om

te probeer om op alle vlakke in ons samelewing die

konsep van menseregte te laat posvat. Met

menseregte so 'n jong begrip is ons nog ver

daarvandaan om werklik die regte van vroue en

kinders te laat geld.



In die tweede plek moet ons onthou dat mishandeling

van kinders meer dikwels voorkom in omstandighede

van haglike armoede. Daarmee wil ons nie voorgee

dat dit net onder sulke omstandighede voorkom nie,

maar maatskaplike ontbering dra daartoe by dat ons

mense die waarde van 'n kind se lewe misken.



Ons het in Suid-Afrika goeie wette om te verseker

dat kinders en vroue teen geweld beskerm word. Die

Wet op Huishoudelike Geweld bied hierdie tipe

beskerming en die wet is 'n groot vooruitgang op

die ou gesinswetgewing wat ons uit die vorige

bestel geërf het. In die wet word die seksuele

misbruik van kinders eerstens beskryf as geweld.

Ons moet hierdie boodskap duidelik uitstuur. Verder

sê die wet dat seksuele misbruik beteken dat mens
14 November 2001                                Page 46 of 320


die regte van daardie kind skend en die Grondwet sê

dat elke kind het die reg dat sy of haar liggaam

gerespekteer moet word. Dit moet die tweede deel

van ons boodskap wees. Verder praat die wet van

mishandeling op verskillende vlakke: emosioneel,

liggaamlik, intimidasie en ekonomies. Dit beteken

ook dat waar die kind die basiese lewensmiddele

ontsê word, ons ook moet aandag gee aan die

daaglikse behoeftes van ons kinders.



Die Suid-Afrikaanse Regskommissie is ook op die

oomblik besig met die herskryf van kinderwetgewing.

In daardie nuwe wet moet ons seker maak dat kinders

se regte die uitgangspunt is, sodat ons nie net op

probleme reageer nie, maar dat ons hele manier van

dink oor die voorkoming en beskerming van ons

kinders teen geweld verander. Ons moet ook sorg dat

daar dienste is waardeur die kinders se reg om in

'n gesonde omgewing groot te word en om nie skade

berokken te word nie, bevorder sal word. Soos ander

sprekers ookal aangedui het, moet ons sorg dat die

strawwe wat in ons wette voorgeskryf word,

behoorlik toegepas word. Ek dink ons moet voortgaan

met ons veldtogte om mense bewus te maak van
14 November 2001                                 Page 47 of 320


kinders se regte. Vroue moet hul regte ken. Kinders

moet hul regte ken. Mans moet hierdie regte ken en

dit respekteer. Ons in die gemeenskap moet ook

begin beheer oorneem oor hoeveel geweld ons

toelaat. Ek weet die mense sê hulle kan nie in

ander mense se huishoudelike probleme inmeng nie.

Ek gee toe dat dit ook te ver gevoer kan word.



Nou vra ek saam met die Adjunkpresident: Wat het

geword van ons ubuntu? Wanneer gaan ons weer die

kinders in ons gemeenskappe beskou as ons eie

kinders? As al die kinders in die gemeenskap ook

myne is, dan het ek ook die verantwoordelik om

hulle te beskerm. Ons moet ook in die skole die

boodskap deurstuur, sodat kinders oral weet hoe om

nee te sê. Kinders moet weet dat as hulle mishandel

word, hulle vir iemand daarvan kan vertel. Iemand

wat na hulle sal luister. Ons moet ook onderwysers

in staat stel om patrone van mishandeling te herken

en hulle in staat stel om iets daaraan te kan doen.

Dit is baie belangrik, want dikwels sien 'n

onderwyser of predikant in die gemeenskap dat 'n

kind mishandel word, maar hulle voel hul hande is

afgekap. Dit is noodsaaklik dat ons mense het
14 November 2001                                Page 48 of 320


waarnatoe hulle kan gaan om die mishandeling van

kinders aan te meld. Daarvoor het ons maatskaplike

dienste nodig, maar ons weet dat die meeste klein

dorpies nie toegang het tot sulke dienste nie. Ons

moet geld bewillig om maatskaplike dienste wat deur

vrywillige organisasies en deur kerke bedryf word,

te ondersteun. Daarom moet ons ook seker maak, dat

die instansies wat die regering daargestel het om

fondse te bewillig, goed funksioneer. Daar is

dikwels fondse beskikbaar, maar die aansoekvorms is

so ingewikkeld en die prosedure so moeilik dat die

organisasies - veral vir die kleineres in ons

agtergeblewe gemeenskappe - sukkel om fondse te

bekom. Daar is genoeg mense wat bereid is om te

werk. Ons moet dit nie vir hulle onnodig moeilik

maak nie. Ek het 'n klein gediggie hier geskryf:



 Die gehuil, gekreun van 'n kind deur geweld

 Daar is 'n gejaag na geld

 Mag en verdrukking in ons gemeenskap

 Ek het nie gevra om gebore te word nie

 Ek het nie gevra vir mishandeling nie

 Waarom doen jy dit aan my,

 Pa? Ma? Suster? Broer? Tannie? Oom en my bure?
14 November 2001                              Page 49 of 320


 Ek vra net liefde aandag en beskerming van almal

 As jy dit nie vir my kan gee nie

 Waar moet ek dit kry?

 Moet my nie seermaak nie

 Want ek kan nie sê waar dit seer is nie

 Moet my nie verkoop

 Vir drank of geld nie

 Beskerm my teen alle geweld.

 Jesus het my lief

 As jy my nie liefhet nie

 Laat ek liefde, aandag en beskerming

 By iemand wat oorloop van goeie dade

 Kerke en skole

 Dis julle kinders ook

 Beskerm hulle teen die uitheemse geweld

 Wat ons kinders, vroue en oumense tref.



[Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs

follows.)



[We are angry. We are hurt and we cannot understand

how anyone can do to a small child what those men

in Upington did the weekend before last. This is

not the only incident of its kind. I am aware of
14 November 2001                                Page 50 of 320


two more small children who were raped in my

province, even though it was not reported in the

newspapers. There are many such incidents.



How is one to understand this? In the first place,

we must remember that we only recently emerged from

a dispensation in which people counted for nothing

as a result of their colour. We only began in 1995

to attempt to establish the concept of human rights

at all levels in our society. With human rights

being such a young concept we are still very far

from really asserting the rights of women and

children.



In the second place we must remember that the abuse

of children occurs more often in circumstances of

desperate poverty. In saying that we do not want to

suggest that it only occurs under such

circumstances, but social deprivation does

contribute to our people undervaluing a child's

life.



We have good laws in South Africa to ensure that

children and women are protected against violence.
14 November 2001                                 Page 51 of 320


The Domestic Violence Act offers this kind of

protection and the Act is a great improvement on

the old family legislation which we inherited from

the previous dispensation. In the Act the sexual

abuse of children is firstly described as violence.

We must convey this message clearly. Furthermore,

the Act says that sexual abuse means that one is

violating the rights of that child and the

Constitution says that every child has the right to

have his or her body respected. That must be the

second part of our message. The Act further talks

about abuse at various levels: emotional, physical,

economic; and intimidation. This also means that

where the child is deprived of basic sustenance, we

must also give attention to the daily needs of our

children.



The South African Law Commission is also currently

redrafting child legislation. In that new Act we

must ensure that children's rights are the point of

departure, so that we do not only respond to

problems, but that our whole way of thinking about

the prevention of and protection from violence of

our children changes. We must also ensure that
14 November 2001                                 Page 52 of 320


there are services by way of which the children's

right to grow up in a healthy environment and not

to be injured, will be promoted. As other speakers

have also indicated, we must see to it that the

penalties prescribed in our laws are properly

implemented. I think we must continue with our

campaigns to make people aware of children's

rights. Women must know their rights. Children must

know their rights. Men must know these rights and

respect them. We in the community must also begin

taking control over the amount of violence we

allow. I know that people say they cannot interfere

in other people's domestic problems. I will concede

that this can also be taken too far.



Now, together with the Deputy President, I ask:

What has become of our ubuntu? When are we once

again going to consider the children in our

communities as our own children? If all the

children in the community are also mine, then I

also have the responsibility to protect them. We

must also convey the message in the schools, so

that children everywhere know how to say no.

Children must know that if they are abused, they
14 November 2001                                 Page 53 of 320


can tell someone about it. Someone who will listen

to them. We must also enable teachers to recognise

patterns of abuse and enable them to do something

about it. This is very important, because often a

teacher or minister in the community sees that a

child is being abused, but they feel that their

hands are tied. It is essential that we have people

who they can go to to report the abuse of children.

For that we need social services, but we know that

most of the small towns do not have access to such

services. We must vote money to support social

services run by volunteer organisations and by

churches. For that reason we must also ensure that

the institutions which the Government has put in

place to allocate funds are functioning well. Often

funding is available, but the application forms are

so complicated and the procedure so difficult that

the organisations - particularly the smaller ones

in our disadvantaged communities - struggle to

obtain funding. There are enough people who are

prepared to work. We must not make it unnecessarily

difficult for them. I have a short poem here:



   Die gehuil, gekreun van 'n kind deur geweld
14 November 2001                                Page 54 of 320


   Daar is 'n gejaag na geld

   Mag en verdrukking in ons gemeenskap

   Ek het nie gevra om gebore te word nie

   Ek het nie gevra vir mishandeling nie

   Waarom doen jy dit aan my,

   Pa? Ma? Suster? Broer? Tannie? Oom en my bure?

   Ek vra net liefde aandag en beskerming van

   almal

   As jy dit nie vir my kan geen nie

   Waar moet ek dit kry?

   Moet my nie seermaak nie

   Want ek kan nie sê waar dit seer is nie

   Moet my nie verkoop

   Vir drank of geld nie

   Beskerm my teen alle geweld.

   Jesus het my lief

   As jy nie liefhet nie

   Laat ek liefde, aandag en beskerming

   By iemand wat oorloop van goeie dade

   Kerke en skole

   Dis julle kinders ook

   Beskerm hulle teen die uitheemse geweld

   Wat ons kinders, vroue en oumense tref.
14 November 2001                                 Page 55 of 320


[Applause.]]



Rev K R J MESHOE: Madam Speaker, when South Africa

was called the rape capital of the world a few

years ago, the rape of children was not a major

issue, but today, in some areas, it seems more

children are being raped than adults. Young girls

are no longer safe in their own homes, communities

and even in their schools.



It is unacceptable that fathers rape their own

daughters, grandsons rape their grandmothers,

uncles rape their nieces, and school teachers and

principals rape their students in classrooms and

offices. The rape of a nine-month-old baby by six

men in the Northern Cape brought shame to the

nation of South Africa.



To remedy the situation, we have to find out what

is wrong with such men. We have to find out what

the contributory factors are and then take bold and

decisive action against the perpetrators of such

heinous crimes. I believe this Parliament made a

mistake by legalising pornography, which inflames
14 November 2001                                 Page 56 of 320


the passion and lust of men. For as long as we have

so much pornography in this country, including on

television, the incidents of rape of children will

keep on increasing. Pornography is the theory but

rape is the action. An eleven-year-old child who

rapes his baby cousin must have seen this being

done somewhere before, either on television or in

pornographic literature. This kind of abuse is

learned behaviour, and not just something that they

can make up in their own heads.



Rapists and criminals in general do not fear the

soft arm of the law. Men who rape children should

lose their right to life. The six men who raped the

innocent nine-month-old baby must be sentenced to

death. When this Parliament amends the Constitution

early next year to allow members of Parliament to

cross the floor without losing their seats, the

ACDP will also call for amendments to sections that

outlaw the death penalty because rapists do not

respect women's and children's rights. Government

and courts should not respect their right to life.
14 November 2001                                 Page 57 of 320


The ACDP says: Stop the rape of women and children.

Stop the availability of drugs and pornography and

bring back the death penalty. We love our children

and must therefore take urgent drastic measures to

protect them. Let us make South Africa a safe haven

for our children, and not a country where they are

raped and abused. [Applause.]



Dr C P MULDER: Madam Speaker, when I was elected to

Parliament, I never thought that there would come a

day when I would have to participate in a debate in

Parliament on the alarming incidents of child rape

and abuse.



Die skrikwekkende voorkoms van kinderverkragting -

wat 'n skande! Wat 'n absolute verleentheid! Dit is

'n skande en 'n verleentheid dat die

Adjunkpresident van Suid-Afrika en die hoogste

wetgewende liggaam van hierdie land 'n debat moet

voer oor die skrikwekkende voorkoms van

kinderverkragting. Wat 'n skande! Wat moet die

wêreld van Suid-Afrika dink? Wat sê dit van ons

gemeenskappe; wat sê dit van ons gesinne?

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follow.)
14 November 2001                                Page 58 of 320


[The alarming occurrence of child rape - what a

shame! What an absolute disgrace! It is a shame and

a disgrace that the Deputy President of South

Africa and the highest legislative body of this

country must have a debate on the alarming

occurrence of child rape. What a shame! What must

the world think of South Africa? What does this say

about our communities; what does it say about our

families?]



The hon Deputy President quoted and referred to the

traditional slogan ``Any child is my child''. I am

sorry to say to the hon the Deputy President that I

think that not even that slogan will solve this

problem because, in some cases, these children are

raped by their own family members and they do not

treat the children like their own in that sense.



Hierdie probleem sal nie deur die Departement van

Veiligheid en Sekuriteit of deur die Minister vir

Justisie of deur ander wetgewing of ander maatreëls

opgelos word nie; glad nie. Hierdie afskuwelikheid

sal slegs opgelos word as daar normaliteit in die

gesinslewe van gesinne in hierdie land intree, as
14 November 2001                                 Page 59 of 320


kinders opgevoed word om respek te hê vir ander, as

daar deur elke man 'n voorbeeld aan sy kinders

gestel word oor hoe om kinders, maar ook alle

vroue, met waardigheid en respek te behandel.

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)



[This problem will not be solved by the Department

of Safety and Security or by the Minister for

Justice or other legislation or any other measures;

not at all. This abomination will only be solved

once normality enters the family life of families

in this country, when children are raised to have

respect for one another, when every man sets an

example to his children about how to treat

children, as well as women, with dignity and

respect.]



The FF will support any action or any measure to

rid our society of this terrible and unspeakable

scourge. [Applause.]



Mrs P W CUPIDO: Madam Speaker, South Africa,

however beautiful this country is, it is, in many

ways, not a home for children. It is a home for
14 November 2001                                Page 60 of 320


adults, for people who are over the age of, I can

say, at least 16, because this category would be

less vulnerable and are able to resist and fight

back. If one cannot resist and fight back against

what seems dangerous, one might be destroyed

forever or bear the scars of an ill society. If a

child finds him or herself in South Africa today

and looks in the mirror, then what I have just said

is what would stare back at him or her. In many

ways, we can call it an ill society.



The World Declaration on the Survival, Protection

and Development of Children is very specific in

clauses 2 and 3. I quote:



 The children of the world are innocent,

 vulnerable and dependent. They are also curious,

 active and full of hope. Their time should be one

 of joy and peace, of playing, learning and

 growing. Their future should be shaped in harmony

 and co-operation. But for many children, the

 reality out there of childhood is altogether

 different.
14 November 2001                               Page 61 of 320


Instead any day could be the dark day of death when

countless children in this country are exposed to

dangers such as rape, abuse, abandonment, neglect,

cruelty, exploitation, and as casualties of

violence and, saddest of all, such children are at

the very mercy of the failing Government. It is

possible that the Government laws to protect

children might remain a dream.



What has this country got to offer for each child

that is born today or tomorrow? According to the

national crime statistics and trends of 2000 and

2001, 51 200 rapes were reported in 1999 of which

thousands were children. There was an increase of

20,8% from 1994 to 1999. The DP believes that the

ANC Government is far too bureaucratic. We need to

have imaginative proposals and solutions. Although

we have a horrible legacy left over from the

apartheid era, we must strive towards changing the

attitudes of our society.



Kom ons takel die oorsake en die feite van hierdie

probleem. Dit is dan juis die ANC wat voor 1994

disinvestering voorgestaan het om die NP-regering
14 November 2001                                 Page 62 of 320


op sy knieë te dwing. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dit op

sigself het grootskaalse werkloosheid en

hongersnood tot gevolg gehad. Sedertdien is

maatskaplike verval aan die orde van die dag, in so

'n mate dat weerlose kinders feitlik van geboorte

af - twee, drie maande oud - tot in hulle

tienderjare die slagoffers word van werklose mans

wat hulle oorgee aan hierdie sinlose, demoniese

dade van geweld. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of

Afrikaans paragraph follows.)



[Let us tackle the causes and the facts of this

problem. It was in fact the ANC who advocated

disinvestment before 1994 to force the NP

Government to its knees. [Interjections.] This in

itself resulted in large-scale unemployment and

starvation.   Subsequently social decline has become

the order of the day, to such an extent that

defenceless children have, practically from birth -

two, three months old - until they are teenagers,

become the victims of unemployed men who indulge in

these senseless, fiendish acts of violence.

[Interjections.]]
14 November 2001                                 Page 63 of 320


Can a man ever be punished enough after he has

raped a two-month-old or a three-year-old child?

The DP proposes that the responsible Minister

considers legislation that will provide for special

professional counselling services over a specific

period of time that will enable such child victims

to have the best treatment and assistance for

maximum recovery. A special fund should also be

available to assist the traumatised families.



Ek vra vandag die Adjunkpresident om iets te doen

aan die justisiewette van hierdie land en om seker

te maak dat hierdie barbaarse geweldenaars

behoorlik gestraf word en nooit weer die

geleentheid kry om sulke dade te herhaal nie.

[Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph

follows.)



[I ask the Deputy President today to do something

about the laws of justice of this country and to

ensure that these barbaric, violent criminals are

properly punished and are never again given the

opportunity to repeat such acts. [Applause.]]
14 November 2001                                 Page 64 of 320


Mr I S MFUNDISI: Madam Speaker and hon members,

rape is such a heinous and morally repulsive crime.

It debases the victim and leaves her with indelible

psychological and emotional scars. There are some

sex-pests who do not qualify to be called human,

who perpetrate this cowardly act even against young

defenceless babies. Such hoodlums deserve maximum

sentencing such as that imposed on the bestial

teacher of Itsoseng in the North West province.



While we respect the independence of the judiciary,

it is not unreasonable to speak out that some of

the sentences meted out to these louts are

ludicrous. Imagine a judge of the High Court

discharging a rapist on the grounds of an eleven-

year-old victim not having taken an oath, whilst in

effect she had been raped.



Because capital punishment is out of the question

in this country, consideration will have to be

given to emasculating these sex offenders, and even

stigmatising them by registering them in a national

sex offenders' register. Efforts should be mounted
14 November 2001                                 Page 65 of 320


to inform the community whenever a paedophile moves

around in the area.



It is argued in some quarters that such dastardly

acts are committed while the offenders are in a

drunken stupor or under the influence of drugs. I

reject this argument with the contempt it deserves.

If unaware of what they are doing, why are they

aware that they have to force what into what on

whom?



As public representatives, let us go out there and

speak out against this moral outrage. Sex offenders

should not be given any room to move around in

civilised society. Let us remember baby Tshepang

and others who are in a similar situation with

love, and hope that they will grow up to overcome

the ordeal. As for the infamous rapists, may they

carry the curse and never have peace in their

lives. [Applause.]



Dr S E M PHEKO: Madam Speaker, the alarming

incidents of child rape and abuse reveal that this

nation needs healing. It is a wake-up call that
14 November 2001                                Page 66 of 320


much damage has been done to this country, not only

politically and economically, but also morally. It

is not enough to quote statistics. They will not

bring back babies and children who have been raped.

Some have died or have now suffered permanent

psychological damage. This problem is a challenge

to this nation to soul search itself.



This country has been subjected to foreign cultural

values. The country needs an Africanist cultural

revolution. Africans must go back to their cultural

roots and to their high pre-colonial standard of

morality. This is a culture that gave meaning to

our unique humanity, ubuntu. In ubuntu the raping

and abuse of children is unknown.



The PAC believes that stiffer sentences must be

meted out to rapists including chemical castration,

seeing that we have become a nation where criminals

have more rights than law-abiding citizens, all

with the false notion of not being brutal to

criminals, no matter how brutal they are to

society, including the raping of our babies,

children and women.
14 November 2001                                 Page 67 of 320


To prevent this insane culture of rapists and

murderers in our country, the PAC proposes the

following: Firstly, we must fight to remove drugs

from our society. Horrible crimes are being

committed under the influence of drugs. Drug

dealers and traffickers are murderers of our

nation. They should be shown no mercy when

convicted.



Secondly, there has been a superstitious belief

spread by forces of darkness that when an HIV/Aids

male patient sleeps with a young female, he can be

cured of this disease. Lastly, the moral fibre of

the nation has broken down alarmingly. All

religions in our country must play their role in

helping to heal this nation morally, and return it

to its spiritual values.



The PAC extends its condolences to all families in

our country which have been affected by these

alarming incidents of child rape and abuse.



Mnr P J I BLANCHÉ: Mevrou die Speaker, ek hoop van

harte dat hierdie Parlement nou tot die besef gekom
14 November 2001                                 Page 68 of 320


het, dat ons nie net met gereelde tussenposes

hierdie ``talk shop'' sonder om doelgerigte stappe

te neem wat mense daar buite sal beskerm teen

barbaarse optrede van uitvaagsels in ons gemeenskap

nie. As ons onsself nie sien as leiers van die

Afrika Renaissance, dan moet hierdie Parlement nou

stappe neem wat 'n einde sal maak aan

geweldsmisdade. Parlementslede moet besluit om die

Grondwet te wysig, sodat die doodstraf opgelê moet

word vir sekere geweldsmisdade, anders sal vroue en

kinders nooit veilig wees in hierdie land, boere

sal ophou boer en polisiemanne en -vroue sal elke

dag sterwe.



Ons ervaar reeds dat moordenaars hierheen vlug,

omdat hulle hier die doodstraf kan vryspring. In

Botswana of enige ander buurstaat sal ses mans nie

waag om 'n 9-maandeoue baba aan te rand, wat staan

nog van te verkrag. Waar in die wêreld kry 'n mens

'n moordenaar tien jaar en drie jaar opgeskort

nadat hy 'n man vyf kilometer ver agter sy bakkie

aangesleep het? Ons kan nie met gereelde

tussenposes mosies uitlees in hierdie Parlement en

in debatte soos hierdie ons afsku uitspreek oor
14 November 2001                               Page 69 of 320


wandade wat gepleeg word, sonder om iets

daadwerkliks daaraan te doen nie. (Translation of

Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)



[Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Madam Speaker, I sincerely hope

that this Parliament has now come to realise that

we cannot only have these talk shops at regular

intervals without taking decisive steps to protect

the people out there from the barbaric acts of the

dregs of our society. If we consider ourselves to

be leaders of the African Renaissance, then this

Parliament must now take steps to put an end to

violent crimes. Members of Parliament must decide

to amend the Constitution, so that the death

penalty must be imposed for certain violent crimes,

otherwise women and children will never be safe in

this country, farmers will stop farming and

policemen and women will die every day.



We are already finding that murderers flee to this

country, because they will escape the death penalty

here. In Botswana or any other neighbouring state

six men would not dare to assault a nine-month-old

baby, let alone rape her. Where in the world would
14 November 2001                                Page 70 of 320


a murderer be sentenced to ten years' imprisonment

with three of those years being suspended after

dragging a man behind his van for five kilometres.

We cannot at regular intervals read out motions in

this Parliament and express our abhorrence at

misdeeds that have been committed in debates such

as this one without taking some positive action in

this regard.]



The buck stops here. If our laws do not deter

criminals, and if our policy is going to provide a

safe haven for terorrists, then we must move out of

the talkshop phase and into the action phase to

protect our citizens. Every one of the relevant

parliamentary portfolio committees and every member

of those committees must stand up and be counted as

a member of Parliament who says that he or she has

had enough of crime in this land.



We owe it to the hundreds of murdered policemen,

farmers and farmworkers. We owe it to thousands of

terrorised children and women. We owe it to South

Africans who have been killed in armed hijackings
14 November 2001                                Page 71 of 320


and robberies. We owe it to all these South

Africans to put our mouths where we earn our money.



I only got two minutes to talk in this debate, but

it is enough. I am much better at working than at

talking. I want to earn respect rather than a

salary. [Applause.]



Mnr C AUCAMP: Mevrou die Speaker, dit het die

verkragting van 'n negemaandeoue baba gekos om ons

met 'n skok te stel voor die afgryslike realiteite

van kinderverkragting en -mishandeling in Suid-

Afrika. Die kleine babatjie van Upington weet dit

nie, maar daar waar haar geskende liggaampie

herstel, het sy die Nkosi Johnson geword in die

stryd teen hierdie onmenslike euwel. Baie waar en

wyse woorde is vandag in hierdie debat gesê.

Politici vat hande teen verkragting. (Translation

of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)



[Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, it took the rape of a

nine-month-old baby to face us, horrified, with the

grim realities of child rape and child abuse in

South Africa. The small baby of Upington does not
14 November 2001                                 Page 72 of 320


know it, but where her small body is recovering,

she became the Nkosi Johnson in the battle against

inhuman evil. Many true and wise words were spoken

in this debate today. Politicians unite against

rape.]



The theme of my short message is: We must

strengthen the moral fibre of our country by

strengthening civil society. Yes, Government has a

role to play, especially through education and, of

course, its security and judiciary services, but

the upliftment of the moral fibre of a country lies

primarily with civil society.



I am afraid civil society in South Africa has

deteriorated dramatically. Black South Africans

upheld vibrant civil organisations before 1994, but

these have stagnated since the gaining of power.

White South Africans on the other hand tend to

privatise their lives in a desperate effort to

escape the realities of losing power. All of us

must work together for the upliftment of a

community life.
14 November 2001                                 Page 73 of 320


In this regard, religion and the church have a

pivotal role to play. May I assure members that the

mere preaching of generally accepted human values

is not enough; because that will merely be

moralising and will have little impact on the lives

of the people. No, people do find their anchors in

a specific religion with specific beliefs, rituals,

communion, ceremonies and, above all,   a personal

vertical relationship, not with an unknown God.



Ons moet kennis neem van die feit dat in die breë

gesien, kan die algemene grootste gemene deler

godsdiens goed klink vir vrede en harmonie, maar

dit kan leeg wees, hol en kragteloos en geen bron

vir nuwe lewe nie. Getroue, lojale gelowiges wat

ook wil toesien dat hulle kinders in hul besondere

geloof opgevoed word, is nie fundamentaliste, maar

die hart en die kern van 'n gesonde gemeenskap. Die

owerheid moet hulle nie as 'n bedreiging sien nie,

maar as die belangrikste en voorste vegters in die

loopgrawe teen morele verval, as die belangrikste

instrument om te verhoed dat mense erger as diere

word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
14 November 2001                                Page 74 of 320


[We must take cognisance of the fact that taking a

broad view, religion can sound good as the biggest

common denominator for peace and harmony, but it

can be empty, hollow and powerless and not a source

of new life. Devoted and loyal believers that also

want to see to it that their children are brought

up in their particular religion, are not

fundamentalists, but the heart and soul of a

healthy community. The authorities should not

regard them as a threat but as the most important

and foremost fighters in the trenches against moral

decline, as the most important instrument in

preventing people from becoming worse than

animals.]



Let us all work together to make every South

African not a lonesome lost individual, but a

person secured and anchored in a family, a

community, and a living congregation. [Applause.]



Mr M WATERS: Madam Speaker, Deputy President and

hon members, throughout history it has been the

inaction of those who could have acted, the

indifference of those who should have known better,
14 November 2001                                Page 75 of 320


and the silence of the voice of justice when it

mattered most that has made it possible for evil to

triumph over good. In those words, members of

Government must begin to recognise themselves, for

they have either failed to act decisively to

prevent child abuse or ... [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Ah! Go and

sit down.



Mr M WATERS: ... acted indifferently towards the

issue by not giving it the priority or the budget

that it deserves and through their ill-conceived

policies created a state where justice is merely a

word.



The result is a state of evil, because surely a

nine-month-old baby who has been gangraped, a

three-year-old who has been chopped up and left in

a bucket, and 13-year-olds who have been

prostituted by their own family members, is evil.

But, what is worse? The sick perpetrators of these

hideous acts or a Government that sits idly by,

watching the children of South Africa suffer?
14 November 2001                                 Page 76 of 320


I want this House to know that child abuse goes

beyond opposition politics. I am not standing here

merely as an opposition MP, but as a truly

disgusted citizen who is outraged by the

Government's totally inadequate response to this

crime being committed against our children. As a

citizen I know precisely the anger and frustration

that prompted Dr Heather McCabe to write letters to

everyone she could think of and to start an e-mail

campaign, expressing the extreme anger and

frustration that every decent South African is

feeling throughout the country.



In order to understand the extent of the problem, I

ask members to visualise a packed Ellis Park

Stadium which has a capacity of 55 000 people. Now

overpack that stadium with 10 000 additional

people, convert those 65 000 people, that is the

sport fans, to   65 000 babies, infants and

children, and what one is seeing are the numbers

who were reported abused, raped and murdered in the

year 2000 alone. It excludes unreported cases.
14 November 2001                                 Page 77 of 320


Of those 65 000 children, only 7 000 received

justice through the courts, meaning that 10,7% of

all reported cases ended in a successful

conviction. In other words, a child rapist,

batterer or murderer has nearly a 90% chance of

getting away with it. Lives are literally being

destroyed while members of Parliament live in their

sheltered offices putting other things first.

[Interjections.] I want to tell the Minister that

this is the perception out there.



We do not need more diatribes, we need action.

[Interjections.] For a start, this House needs to

insist on the implementation of its own laws, and

in this case, the Criminal Law Amendment Act, which

provides for children's courts in every magisterial

district, thereby better facilitating the process

of giving evidence for these already traumatised

children.



In reply to a question I asked, the Minister for

Justice admitted that a shocking 201 magisterial

districts were still without children's courts, and

that it would cost just over R14 million to install
14 November 2001                                 Page 78 of 320


all these children's courts. Yes, only R14 million,

which is nothing when one considers that it will go

a long way in securing more convictions and making

our communities safer places overall. But, of

course, the Government claims that it does not have

this R14 million, while it does have R90 million

for a racism conference and R1,5 billion to bail

out the Post Office. [Interjections.]



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Sit down.

Go back to the kindergarten. [Interjections.]



Mr M WATERS: Madam Speaker, it does not have R14

million to bring rapists and murderers to justice.

Is this due to the fact that children have no

political voice or merely because the Government

has other priorities? I would like to leave the

House with one thought for today - there is no

excuse for child abuse. [Applause.]



Mr M J G MZONDEKI: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy

President, hon members, I will resist the

temptation to respond to some of the remarks that

have been made here and rather take the advice of
14 November 2001                                 Page 79 of 320


the Speaker that we must approach this debate in a

positive manner.



The first time that I was called to make an

intervention in a child rape and abuse case was

some years back in the mining town of Welkom, when

I was called by a local parents' organisation to

try and rescue a 14-year-old girl who had been

abducted by men to a men's hostel. She was kept

there against her will and repeatedly raped, and we

only managed to rescue her 25 hours later.



I will never be able to begin to imagine the trauma

and suffering that this young child experienced

during her ordeal, particularly because her

powerlessness was compounded by the fact that she

was voiceless. She was unable to speak. She was

extremely defenceless and helpless in the presence

of the aggressors. To this day, the question has

always remained with me: Why do men have to exert

their misguided, perceived powers so violently

against vulnerable children and women? What is it

that makes some men want to prove their manhood
14 November 2001                                 Page 80 of 320


through a forceful and excessive display of

misguided violence?



We often talk about rape and abuse in a particular

way and talk as if everybody understands the

gravity of the actual act, but do men really

comprehend its meaning? Perhaps we should talk

about child abuse and start talking about a child.

The Child Care Act defines a child as a male or

female person between the ages of 8 and 18 years.

And the Oxford Dictionary describes a child as a

young human being below the age of full physical

development.   This put simply means that it is a

young and growing human being who is embarking on a

journey through a process of transformation from

innocence, defencelessness and incapability to one

that is, hopefully, informed, capable and

responsible and to assist this young person through

a healthy development and transformation process

into adulthood. It needs a loving, nurturing and a

caring adult, whom this young being can feel

connected to, cared about and protected.
14 November 2001                                 Page 81 of 320


The dictionary says that abuse is: ``Used to bad

effect or purpose, to treat with cruelty or

violence, to assault sexually, to address in an

insulting or offensive way''. It is an intended

action that brings into play the element of power,

on the one hand, and helplessness on the other. It

is often expressed through various forms such as

mistreatment, cruelty, maltreatment, violence,

neglect and exploitation.



And, if one were to take a situation where a child

has fallen victim to rape and abuse, then most

often, it would be expressed through aggressive

violence to the point of brutality and this against

the pureness and innocence that we all, at one

stage in our lives, experienced. The known

aggressors and violators of such innocence are

almost always adult males - men. And the question

still is: Why?



If we as leaders and protectors of this nation have

to move or remove this huge unsightly thorn from

the moral flesh and fibre of South African society,

then we need to trace the roots of this evil, which
14 November 2001                                 Page 82 of 320


has now embedded itself almost to the point where

it has become a commonality and part of our daily

lives. In recognising the need to rectify this, we

need to ascertain and acknowledge its root causes.



Today's youth are the offspring of the old ones of

the past era, most of whom have grown up without a

role model to guide them in their development

because some of their fathers were involved in the

liberation struggle, some were building the new

South Africa, and some were active in mining as

migrant labourers. This resulted in the youth of

the new millennium, when spoken of, conjuring up

images of crime, HIV prevalence, poor academic

performances, and a total lack of interest in

politics and society in general.



Reflecting on this passage of transformation we

also have to acknowledge that the advent of gender

equity within the new South Africa has caught men

unaware and unprepared, and literary pulled the rug

out from under their feet. Men primarily believed

and lived with the notion that they own and have

power, and therefore perceived themselves to be
14 November 2001                                 Page 83 of 320


powerful. Men understood real power to mean being

in control of any given situation on the one hand,

and controlling the destiny of one's own domain and

those within it on the other. Where they confront

barriers to the exercising of their power, physical

force is used as the next resort to enforce and

instil their power. It never occurs to them that

power can be and should be shared and negotiated,

even within the domestic domain.



However, whilst we progress in the empowerment and

development of our women, our men, as a parallel

route of empowerment, were not taken along in a

similar process that would enable them to

understand the new concept of sharing power with

the opposite sex. So is it perhaps not that this is

a much-needed supported form of transformation and

development for men of today, and the missing piece

when seeking the answers behind the cruelty of

child rape and abuse.



The current affirmation of the female identity as

equal is evident in the employment market, the

continuing independence of women and the confidence
14 November 2001                                 Page 84 of 320


with which they display their day-to-day lives in

activities. Do real men feel threatened by this

achievement? Is it causing them to feel insecure to

the extent that they have become so vulnerable that

they need to resort to situations where they are

creators of illusions where they perceive

themselves to be powerful beings? And is it not

that now that gender equality and empowerment have

become a part of our lives, the next best victim to

receive and express this perceived power within a

most abusive and aggressive manner is the young and

innocent child? Is it not time to identify, within

the modern South Africa, irrespective of culture,

creed and social status amongst ourselves as men,

what constitutes a real man, more specifically

within this changing culture of gender and role

transformation?



It is of much concern that it had to take another

victim of child rape and abuse to bring men

together in this House to talk about, debate and

discuss the issue in the open. But is it not time

for us men to inwardly reflect on our own

perception of power and acknowledge without
14 November 2001                                 Page 85 of 320


reservation that we have to learn to understand and

accept our new role within shared power in this new

and young democracy of ours? We have to acknowledge

that we need, as a first step to redress, to start

with ourselves here in this Parliament, as the

much-needed role- models to men and the youth out

there, and that we need to set an example and

participate in the campaign titled: "Real men do

not rape’’.



It is our collective responsibility to find within

the real man and bring him to the fore, as part of

setting an example, and in doing so, embark on a

new passage of healing, guiding and sharing.

[Applause.]



The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL

DEVELOPMENT:   Madam Speaker, hon Deputy President

and hon members, we have, all of us, been shattered

by the recent spate of rape and abuse against our

children. Public comment has been angry, emotional,

confused and strident in its condemnation of these

appalling assaults. Let us not, in our anger, lose

sight of the central issue. Rape is not a sexual
14 November 2001                                 Page 86 of 320


act, it is an act of violence perpetrated by the

powerful over the powerless. These incidents

highlight in stark and shocking detail how race,

class and gender conspire to rob the most

vulnerable of their human dignity, and speak

centrally to the perceived and actual power and

balances that hold sway in our society.



In respect of this specific incident in Upington,

the Director for Public Prosecutions in the

Northern Cape has assured my Minister, Dr Penuell

Maduna, that the matter will be handled by an

experienced senior prosecutor and will be heard in

a High Court. The accused will remain in custody

until 23 November. The Upington community in

particular, expressed anger about last week's

postponement of the case. We need to remind

ourselves that our Constitution guarantees every

person a fair trial and the accused must be given

time to secure legal representation.



In circumstances such as these, anger is

understandable, but it is time for us to do

something positive, thoughtful and meaningful,
14 November 2001                                Page 87 of 320


something that makes a difference. I believe that

this onslaught against children and women will not

cease until men become part of the solution. Each

one of us has a father, a husband, a son, a brother

or an uncle.



On the 25th of this month, the 16 days of activism

for no violence against Women begins. Let us

embrace this opportunity to recommit ourselves to

making our women and children safe and free from

fear of violence. These 16 days provide the ideal

opportunity to sensitise and involve men and boys

proactively in the fight against violence and

abuse.



Just this morning, I attended a workshop organised

by the Gender Advocacy Programme. The theme of the

workshop was "Building Peace in the Home:

Integrated Strategies for Change". Two of the items

on their agenda were particularly relevant to

today's debate. They discussed ``Life-skills

development programmes with youths to impact on

changing gender roles'', and ``Working with men to
14 November 2001                                 Page 88 of 320


change the prevalent attitudes and perceptions that

lead to violent and abusive behaviour''.



These two topics, I believe, speak to the very

heart of our debate, and the challenge, both for

the Government and civil society, will be how to

reach and interact with the maximum number of boys

and men within manageable and realistic timeframes.

As indicated by the Deputy President and other

speakers here today, the promotion and protection

of our children's rights enjoy priority status in

our governance structures and in the Justice, Crime

Prevention and Security Cluster in particular.



Recognising the need for fundamental transformation

in our society and changing particularly the way in

which that society views and treats its most

vulnerable, law reform has provided a powerful

instrument for effecting change and protecting the

rights of our citizens, children, women and men. In

this we are guided by our Constitution, which lays

down the principles for change and transformation,

including a special reference to children and their

best interest. It does so by entrenching far-
14 November 2001                                Page 89 of 320


reaching provisions to protect them from abuse, all

forms of exploitation and any other action that may

infringe upon or compromise their rights in any

way.



We are further guided by our accession in 1995 to

the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and

the African Charter on the Rights and Welfare of

the Child. The world community has underlined the

importance of ensuring that children's human rights

are given special attention by the almost universal

ratification of the UN Convention.



We have an exceptional body of laws to combat

violence and restore the dignity of those whose

rights have been violated. The Child Care Act and

the Sexual Offences Act specifically prohibit

sexual abuse and exploitation of children. These

Acts are currently under review to make them even

more comprehensive and effective. The host of

special legal instruments, approved by this

Parliament since 1994, have empowered law

enforcement agencies to act against the
14 November 2001                                Page 90 of 320


perpetrators of violence against children and

women.



I believe that when we look at children we see our

future. They are our most precious asset, and as

such, they deserve to be cherished, nurtured and

allowed to develop in the best possible

circumstances that we as a society, can provide.

Historically, though, the majority of our children

have experienced oppression, loss of dignity,

terrible suffering, and all too frequently death

resulting from social and economic deprivation, not

to mention political persecution. Lack of access to

education, health services, protection from the

elements and adequate nutrition has left our

children, particularly African children, in dire

straits.



While the Government dedicates itself to the

enormous challenges that face it in this

specialised area of our law, it is important to

note that the conspiracy of silence that surrounds

incidents of domestic abuse and violence continues

to undermine effective law enforcement. All too
14 November 2001                                 Page 91 of 320


often violence in the home is regarded as a "family

or private matter", and in such cases friends,

neighbours, social workers and the police are

reticent to intervene. Whether at home or on the

street, whether behind closed doors or in a public

place, violence is violence, and failure to act

further imperils those most at risk.



In today's world of altered family structures and

the ever-increasing pressures of urbanisation on

the one hand, and rural impoverishment on the

other, the state has an increasingly significant

role to play in the protection of our children. And

this protection becomes increasingly important when

the perpetrators of domestic violence are shielded

by a devastating social irony - that this violence

is more often than not meted out by persons related

or known to the victim and often in the sanctity of

their own homes.



Critical to the successful implementation of this

legislation is the integration of services provided

by the participating departments. The cluster

approach to cross-sectoral matters has proved a
14 November 2001                                 Page 92 of 320


useful tool in managing the rigorous demands of

this legislation.



The President, Mr Thabo Mbeki, has accorded this

issue the importance and status it deserves. The

Office on the Status of the Child, situated in the

Presidency, provides the essential leadership and

guidance in accordance with the activities of the

various line departments. Regular contact with that

Office has added a new dimension and efficacy to

the cluster process. This work process has set new

standards for co-operative and integrated task

management.



The effectiveness of this legislation, though, is

also dependent on other aspects of law and legal

processes. In this regard we have developed

legislation that places a particular onus on the

courts in respect of conditions of bail in these

matters. Perpetrators of violent acts will not be

granted bail unless the courts find exceptional

circumstances exist for not applying the prescribed

provisions. Legislation that regulates sentencing

has also been passed, and this ensures that
14 November 2001                                 Page 93 of 320


judicial offices in serious cases have to apply

extremely strict minimum sentences unless

substantial and compelling reasons not to apply

them prevail.



In terms of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, the

maximum sentence for the sexual abuse of a child

could be life imprisonment, but the decision to

impose the maximum sentence lies ultimately with

the judiciary. Measures to sensitise a judicial

officer to the very special circumstances that

prevail in domestic violence and sexual abuse

cases, form a major part of the justice college's

ongoing training and education programme. Recently,

a judge in the Pretoria High Court sentenced a man

to life imprisonment after he was convicted of

raping a seven-year-old girl. The deterrent message

carried in this sentence is unequivocal, and it is

not an isolated case. By September this year 69

convicted offenders had been handed life sentences

for crimes committed against children.



While in the past testimony by children was subject

to rigorous interrogation, often to the detriment
14 November 2001                                 Page 94 of 320


of the victim, the SA Law Commission's

investigation into process and procedure will

further regulate and simplify testimony of child

victims in our courts. The establishment of

specialised sexual offences courts has made it

easier for children to give evidence in court in a

child-friendly environment. Separate testimony

rooms, closed-circuit television facilities and

separate witness waiting rooms are but some of the

facilities that feature in this unique court

environments. Children and women are turning to

these courts in increasing numbers, because they

stand a real chance of obtaining effective remedies

against sexual and domestic violence. In these

environments dedicated investigating officers,

specifically trained prosecutors and forensic

medical practitioners combine their skills to

support victims and survivors as they make their

way to the criminal justice system.



A partnership between a National Prosecuting

Authority and the Department of Health at the

Jooste Hospital in the Cape Flats has managed to

sustain their prosecution rate of over 80% since
14 November 2001                                 Page 95 of 320


soon after its inception. This is extraordinary,

even by international standards. On the train-the-

trainer basis similar units have been opened at the

Somerset West and Mdantsane hospitals. We

acknowledge that until the programme for sexual

offences is rolled out to all parts of the country,

especially the rural areas, access to these

specialised services will be limited over the short

to medium term.



Due to funding constraints, the process has, of

necessity, to be incremental. Demand for these

services far exceeds the parameters of currently

available resources. We are in the process of

creating decision packages that will compete for

funding on the basis of capacity, to add value to

service delivery. In short, we are designing a

delivery framework that will be reflected

appropriately in our budget and in our actions.



However, reducing the level of violence in our

society cannot be the sole responsibility of the

state or Government. Unless communities act

positively and proactively to stem the tide, the
14 November 2001                                 Page 96 of 320


impact of our efforts would continue to be

compromised. Failure to report the sexual abuse of

children and the withdrawal of cases after they

have been reported, frustrate our best efforts to

make meaningful inroads in this area of law

enforcement. Failure to report sexual offences

impacts negatively on the overall safety and

security of vulnerable groups such as women and

children. If rape is not reported, it cannot be

responded to. And withdrawing cases after they have

been reported reinforces the belief amongst

perpetrators that they can act violently and with

impunity. It also increases the potential for

further acts against other victims if the

perpetrators are not brought to book.



Owing to a combination of factors, not all reported

rape cases result in prosecution. We have

established these specialised courts to eliminate

those factors that militate against prosecution and

to provide an empowering environment that addresses

the fears and concerns of victims and survivors of

rape.
14 November 2001                                Page 97 of 320


Encouraging results are already emerging from all

our sexual offences courts. Consolidated and

improved prosecutorial services and the user-

friendly court environment have been pivotal in the

campaign to combat violence against women and

children. It has also become a key to improving the

interface between victims and the different facets

of the criminal justice system.



We must, as a community, eradicate abuse and

violence by encouraging victims to report

violations, and then stick with the processes and

they progress to the court system. We understand

that the court process can be frightening, and we

appeal to friends and relatives to support victims

and survivors who find themselves in these

circumstances.



Before I conclude, I must caution members that in

the clamour for harsh action against the

perpetrators of sexual offences against women and

children, we might lose sight of the very people

that really need our help - the victims and

survivors of these acts. The focus on what action
14 November 2001                                 Page 98 of 320


we take against sexual crime offenders should never

overshadow the restorative processes we provide to

address their plight. [Applause.]



Debate concluded.



   HIGH INCIDENCE OF RAPE AND ABUSE OF CHILDREN



                    (Draft Resolution)



The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam

Speaker, I hereby move without notice that the

House-



 That the House -



   (1) notes the shockingly high incidence of rape

         and abuse of children and babies across our

         country;



   (2) also notes that South Africa is not only a

         signatory of the UN Convention on the

         Rights of the Child, but has also passed

         some of the world's most progressive laws
14 November 2001                             Page 99 of 320


       aimed at promoting and protecting those

       rights;



   (3) believes that each incident of rape and

       abuse of children is not simply an isolated

       event, but an intrinsic part of the

       historic abuse of children that has

       manifested itself over the centuries in -



       (a) child slavery;



       (b) child labour;



       (c) child pornography;



       (d) the child trade;



       (e) hunger, poverty and disease;



       (f) abuse; and



       (g) rape;
14 November 2001                            Page 100 of 320


   (4) agrees to take the fight to the

       perpetrators by -



       (a) holding public hearings on child rape

           and abuse to analyse its causes, and

           inform our counter-strategies

           appropriately;



       (b) mobilising all our communities and the

           public sector to fight and expose this

           scourge; and



       (c) campaigning for the harshest punishment

           permissible under the Constitution;



   (5) reminds South Africans that this

       unacceptable social behaviour goes against

       the grain of the cultural traditions of all

       our people; and



   (6) calls on all South Africans, as

       individuals, sectors and communities, to

       unite in the fight against child rape and

       abuse.
14 November 2001                              Page 101 of 320


Agreed to.



[Applause.]



       WELCOMING OF DELEGATION FROM NAMIBIA



The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, before I go

on to the next item on the Order Paper, I would

like to recognise the delegation from Namibia which

is led by the Chairperson of the Public Accounts

Committee of their parliament and also accompanied

by the Auditor-General. We would like to welcome

them to this Parliament. [Applause.]



QUESTIONS AND REPLIES - see that book.



                   NOTICES OF MOTION



Mr R J B MOHLALA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice

that on the next sitting day of the House I shall

move on behalf of the ANC:



 That the House -
14 November 2001                               Page 102 of 320


 (1) notes -



     (a) reports of the Taliban retreat from the

         city of Kabul in Afghanistan as Northern

         Alliance forces march through the city;



     (b) that the news of the fall of the Taliban

         regime was received with joy by the

         masses of the people of Afghanistan; and



     (c) that the United Nations is preparing for

         a transitional government to govern the

         country;



 (2) calls on the masses of the people of

     Afghanistan to work towards -



     (a) the restoration of human rights which

         were eroded as a result of the deliberate

         disregard of such rights by the

         oppressive and repressive Taliban

         government; and
14 November 2001                                Page 103 of 320


        (b) ever-lasting peace, democracy and

            national unity; and



 (3) calls on the international community to

        mobilise resources to assist the people of

        Afghanistan in the implementation of the

        post-war recovery programme and the building

        of a sovereign state based on a universal

        Bill of Rights.



[Applause.]



Mr W J SEREMANE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice

that on the next sitting day of the House I shall

move:



 That the House -



 (1) notes that -



        (a) despite the ANC's publicity stunt in the

            form of the overpriced and pretentious

            ``imbizo’’ campaign, depressed places

            such as Bizana in the Eastern Cape are
14 November 2001                               Page 104 of 320


         crying out for relief and substantial

         delivery in return for the votes given to

         the ANC; and



     (b) the ANC's neglected and inefficient

         governance makes a mockery of the so-

         called ``the people have spoken

         mandate’’; and



 (2) calls on the ANC to deliver to Bizana before

     delivering to Burundi, even though it is

     ``neighbourly’’ to do so, because charity

     should really begin at home.



[Interjections.]



Mrs S A SEATON: Chairperson, I hereby give notice

that on the next sitting day of the House I shall

move on behalf of the IFP:



 That the House -



 (1) received with shock the sad news that an

     Eastern Cape police station commissioner,
14 November 2001                               Page 105 of 320


     Captain Andries Japhta, 34, shot dead his

     wife, children and himself early yesterday

     morning;



 (2) wishes to extend its condolences to the next

     of kin of both the husband and the wife

     during their period of mourning;



 (3) believes that there may be really serious

     emotional or other problems experienced by

     the members of the SAPS, as revealed by the

     spate of suicides and family murders; and



 (4) appeals to the Ministry and the Department of

     Safety and Security to commission a holistic

     investigation into this matter with a view to

     remedying the situation.



Mr M U KALAKO: Chairperson, I hereby give notice

that on the next sitting day of the House I shall

move on behalf of the ANC:



 That the House -
14 November 2001                               Page 106 of 320


 (1) notes -



     (a) reports that former President Nelson

         Mandela berated US President Bush for

         agreeing to meet Ariel Sharon and yet

         refusing to meet President Arafat; and



     (b) that ex-President Mandela has proposed

         that attempts to resolve the ongoing

         conflict in the Middle East be handled by

         a mediation committee composed of a

         number of countries, not a single

         country;



 (2) believes that the proposals made by Comrade

     Mandela will go a long way towards achieving

     a peaceful resolution of the conflict in the

     Middle East; and



 (3) expresses its full support for the proposals

     made by former President Mandela.



[Applause.]
14 November 2001                               Page 107 of 320


Mnr J W LE ROUX: Voorsitter, hiermee gee ek kennis

dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die Nuwe

NP voorstel:



 Dat die Huis -



 (1) met skok kennis neem van die tragiese

     gesinsmoord gister in Jansenville, toe die

     stasiekommissaris, inspekteur Andries Japhta,

     sy vrou en drie kinders doodgeskiet het

     voordat hy ook sy eie lewe geneem het;



 (2) kennis neem van die uiters stresvolle

     werksomstandighede van polisielede en dat

     navorsers bevind het dat die gemiddelde

     aantal selfmoorde onder polisielede in Suid-

     Afrika 130 per 100 000 is, die hoogste in die

     wêreld, terwyl dit in oorsese lande nagenoeg

     18 per 100 000 is; en



 (3) 'n beroep doen op die Minister van Veiligheid

     en Sekuriteit en die Polisiekommissaris om

     dringend aandag te skenk aan -
14 November 2001                               Page 108 of 320


     (a) die emosionele welstand van die SAPD deur

            te verseker dat hulle toegang het tot die

            nodige professionele sielkundige dienste;

            en



     (b) . ander faktore soos personeeltekorte en

             swak betaling wat lei tot beroepsmatheid

             en emosionele spanning.

(Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion

follows.)



[Mr J W LE ROUX: Chairperson, I hereby give notice

that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf

of the New NP:



 That the House -



 (1) takes note with shock of the tragic family

     murder committed in Jansenville yesterday,

     when the station commander, Inspector Andries

     Japhta, shot and killed his wife and three

     children, before taking his own life;
14 November 2001                                 Page 109 of 320


 (2) takes note of the extremely stressful working

     conditions of members of the police and that

     researchers have found that the average

     number of suicides amongst members of the

     police in South Africa is 130   per   100 000,

     the highest in the world, while in countries

     abroad it is approximately 18 per 100 000;

     and



 (3) appeals to the Minister of Safety and

     Security and the Police Commissioner to give

     urgent attention to -



     (a) the emotional wellbeing of the SAPS by

           ensuring that they have access to the

           necessary professional psychological

           services; and



     (b) other factors such as personnel shortages

           and poor remuneration which lead to

           occupational fatigue and emotional

           stress.]
14 November 2001                             Page 110 of 320


Mr D G MKONO: Chairperson, I hereby give notice

that on the next sitting day of the House I shall

move on behalf of the UDM:



 That the House -



 (1) welcomes the Glazewski report which severely

     criticises the deal between the National

     Botanical Institute and the Chicago-based

     Ball Horticultural Company, and confirms the

     UDM's concerns by stating that the deal is

     not beneficial for South Africa, and

     recommends that it be renegotiated;



 (2) notes -



     (a) that this is in line with the concerns

         expressed since April this year, during

         which the party called for intervention

         on the deal; and



     (b) the concerns raised regarding the impact

         of this deal on floriculture, ecotourism,

         potential economic opportunities and
14 November 2001                                Page 111 of 320


         pharmaceutical and related industries;

         and



 (3) urges the Minister for Agriculture and Land

     Affairs to intervene and suspend this deal,

     pending further negotiations, and thereby act

     in the best interest of all the people of

     South Africa.



Mr G C OOSTHUIZEN: Chairperson, I hereby give

notice that on the next sitting day of the House I

shall move on behalf of the ANC:



 That the House -



 (1) notes the massive outcry against the light

     sentence passed on Piet Odendaal for killing

     his employee, Mr Mosoko Rampuru;



 (2) believes that -



     (a) racially inclined acts of violence should

         be met with the full might of the law;

         and
14 November 2001                                Page 112 of 320


     (b) the brutality of Piet Odendaal's actions

         warranted a stiffer sentence; and



 (3) welcomes the standpoint of the National

     Director of Public Prosecutions to seek a

     stiffer sentence in the event of Piet

     Odendaal's appeal against his piecemeal

     sentence.



[Applause.]



Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Chairperson, I hereby give

notice that on the next sitting day of the House I

shall move:



 That the House -



 (1) notes with concern and outrage that reports

     indicate a clear increase in child rape cases

     in South Africa;



 (2) notes that the Government has been slow to

     act in addressing the urgent problem of child

     abuse and rape;
14 November 2001                               Page 113 of 320


 (3) further notes that it is ironic that the

     Government is now moving towards proper

     protection for children, when this kind of

     crime perpetrated against children has been

     occurring for a long time;



 (4) calls on the Government to provide all child

     rape victims with immediate access to

     antiretroviral drugs, with compulsory HIV

     testing;



 (5) notes that the family is the foundational

     building block of society and that it is the

     Government's responsibility to protect it and

     create an environment in which families can

     grow and flourish; and



 (6) calls on the Government to commit itself to

     ensuring that, with each case of reported

     child abuse or rape, the perpetrators are

     convicted and receive harsh sentences without

     the option of bail.
14 November 2001                               Page 114 of 320


Mnr C AUCAMP: Mnr die Voorsitter, hiermee gee ek

kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens

die AEB sal voorstel:



 Dat die Huis -



 (1)   met kommer daarvan kennis neem dat die

       Parlement se Staande Komitee oor Openbare

       Rekenings bevind het dat die Departement van

       Justisie en Staatkundige Ontwikkeling se

       finansiële kontroles in 'n chaotiese

       toestand is;



 (2)   met kommer kennis neem dat die gebrek aan

       kontrole betrekking het op die departement

       se depositorekening vir trustgelde, met 'n

       omset van R3,7 miljard per jaar;



 (3)   daarop let dat die betrokke finansiële

       beheerbeampte die situasie beskryf as 'n

       "nasionale krisis" en 'n "nagmerrie";



 (4)   die verskoning van die direkteur-generaal

       dat hierdie toestand te wyte is aan die
14 November 2001                               Page 115 of 320


       gebrek aan opleiding tydens die

       apartheidsera verwerp, aangesien agt jaar

       reeds intussen verloop het;



 (5)   meen dat hierdie onbekwaamheid eerder

       toegeskryf moet word aan die

       onoordeelkundige toepassing van regstellende

       aksie en ander optrede van die Regering wat

       gelei het tot die uitvloei van bekwame

       personeel en onmisbare ervaring; en



 (6)   aanbeveel dat onmiddellike stappe gedoen

       word om die onbevredigende situasie reg te

       stel, waaronder die heraanstelling van

       ervare personeel wat uit diens gestel is.

(Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion

follows.)



[Mr C AUCAMP: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice

that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf

of the AEB:



 That the House -
14 November 2001                               Page 116 of 320


 (1) notes with concern that Parliament's Standing

     Committee on Public Accounts found that the

     financial controls of the Department of

     Justice and Constitutional Development are in

     a chaotic state;



 (2) notes with concern that the lack of control

     refers to the department's deposit account

     for trust funds, with a turnover of R3,7

     billion per annum;



 (3) notes that the relevant financial control

     officer describes the situation as a

     ``national crisis'' and a ``nightmare'';



 (4) rejects the excuse of the director-general

     that this state of affairs is as a result of

     a lack of training during the apartheid era,

     since eight years have already passed in the

     meantime;



 (5) is of the opinion that this incompetence

     should rather be attributed to the

     injudicious application of affirmative action
14 November 2001                             Page 117 of 320


     and other actions of the Government which led

     to the departure of competent personnel and

     indispensable experience; and



 (6) recommends that immediate steps be taken to

     rectify the unsatisfactory situation,

     including the reappointment of experienced

     personnel who were dismissed.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members,

can you please show respect to those members who

are reading the motions. You are sitting right

behind a member who is reading a motion and making

a noise so that we cannot even hear what he is

saying. Can we please respect each other!



Mr R P ZONDO: Chairperson, I hereby give notice

that on the next sitting day of the House I shall

move on behalf of the ANC:



 That the House -



 (1) notes that -
14 November 2001                               Page 118 of 320


     (a) stolen goods worth R5 million have been

         recovered since the start of Operation

         Thunderstorm in Johannesburg; and



     (b) the National Crime Prevention Strategy is

         proving to be a success as it is turning

         the tide against gangsterism in the

         Western Cape;



 (2) believes that the recovery of stolen goods

     reflects the commitment of the Government to

     working towards a crime-free society; and



 (3) commends members of the South African Police

     Service for reducing levels of crime in our

     society.



[Applause.]



Mnr S E OPPERMAN: Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis

dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die DA

sal voorstel:



 Dat die Huis -
14 November 2001                               Page 119 of 320


 (1) daarvan kennis neem dat die stryd om die

     premierskap tussen die Nuwe NP-leierskap en

     die ANC in die Wes-Kaap in alle erns begin

     het;



 (2) ook daarvan kennis neem dat die Nuwe NP-

     leierskap se aanbeveling gegrond is op die

     veronderstelling dat hulle kandidaat groter

     bruin steun geniet en volgens hulle 'n

     Christen is, en dus meer aanvaarbaar is, in

     teenstelling met die ANC-kandidaat wat 'n

     Moslem is;



 (3) glo dat dié verdelende en selfvernietigende

     benadering van die Nuwe NP nog steeds

     ooreenstem met die benadering van die ou NP;

     en



 (4) . 'n beroep doen op die amper gewese Nuwe NP om

      die speletjies met rassisme en godsdiens te

      staak en die basiese beginsels van die

      Grondwet, waartoe hulle hul met hul

      inhuldiging as lede van hierdie Parlement

      verbind het, te eerbiedig.
14 November 2001                               Page 120 of 320


(Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion

follows.)



[Mr S E OPPERMAN: Chairperson, I hereby give notice

that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf

of the DA:



 That the House -



 (1) notes that the battle for the premiership

     between the New NP leadership and the ANC in

     the Western Cape has begun in earnest;



 (2) also notes that the New NP leadership's

     recommendation is based on the presumption

     that their candidate enjoys greater coloured

     support and is, according to them, a

     Christian, in contrast to, and therefore more

     acceptable than, the ANC candidate, who is a

     Muslim;



 (3) believes that this divisive and self-

     destructive approach of the New NP is still
14 November 2001                               Page 121 of 320


     in accord with the approach of the old NP;

     and



 (4) appeals to the almost defunct New NP to stop

     the games involving racism and religion and

     to respect the basic principles of the

     Constitution, to which they committed

     themselves upon their induction as members of

     this Parliament.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Mr

Opperman, we have ruled in the past that you can

only move a motion in the name of your own party

and not in the name of another party which is not

in this House. Please, do remember that.



Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson, I hereby give notice

that on the next sitting day of the House I shall

move on behalf of the IFP:



 That the House -



 (1) express its concern about the murders and the

     safety of the members of the SA Police
14 November 2001                               Page 122 of 320


     Service, despite their goodwill in ensuring

     the safety and security of the public at

     large;



 (2) notes that there are safety precautions that

     they should also follow to ensure their

     safety, such as wearing bulletproof vests,

     but that, in most cases, they neglect to do

     so;



 (3) further notes that, in combatting criminal

     activity,     there is no 100% absolute safety

     but these safety precautions have a positive

     impact on the reduction in police deaths; and



 (4) resolves that the senior management of the

     SAPS should regulate the wearing of

     bulletproof vests as an obligation on all

     police officials, especially those who deal

     directly with crime.



Ms F HAJAIG: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that

on the next sitting day of the House I shall move

on behalf of the ANC:
14 November 2001                              Page 123 of 320


 That the House -



 (1) notes that -



     (a) children from Laudium schools organised

           by Lamwa have collected food and clothing

           for distribution to adults and children

           who suffer from HIV/Aids and

           tuberculosis; and



     (b) this food and clothing will be

           distributed in Ivory Park, Ebony Park,

           Phomolong, Kanana and other informal

           settlements in the area;



 (2) commends the patriotism and solidarity

     displayed by these schoolchildren and women;

     and



 (3) calls on all people, young and old, to

     emulate this important example.



[Applause.]
14 November 2001                               Page 124 of 320


Mnr F J VAN DEVENTER: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gee

hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag

namens die Nuwe NP sal voorstel:



 Dat die Huis -



 (1) kennis neem -



     (a) van die welslae wat die personeel van

         Operation Neptune behaal, asook die

         moeilike omstandighede waaronder hulle

         werk ten einde Suid-Afrika se mariene

         bronne te beskerm teen stropers en

         smokkelaars;



     (b) dat sedert Operation Neptune in Augustus

         2000 aanvang geneem het, is 1 226

         verdagtes in hegtenis geneem,

         afkoopboetes van R189 000 uitgereik en 59

         voertuie gekonfiskeer is;



     (c) dat 12 bote en sleepwaens en perlemoen

         ter waarde van R12,9 miljoen ook

         gekonfiskeer is;
14 November 2001                                Page 125 of 320




     (d) dat personeel van Operation Neptune

            hulself dikwels onder skoot bevind tydens

            gewelddadige konfrontasies met stropers;

            en



     (e) Operation Neptune daarin geslaag het om

            hierdie welslae te behaal ten spyte van

            'n tekort aan personeel en hulpmiddels;

            en



 (2) . 'n beroep doen op sy lede om almal wat

      betrokke is by Operation Neptune, te bedank

      en geluk te wens met die toewyding waarmee

      die manne en vroue Suid-Afrika se

      waardevolle bronne soos perlemoen beskerm.

(Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion

follows.)



[Mr F VAN DEVENTER: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give

notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on

behalf of the New NP:



 That the House -
14 November 2001                             Page 126 of 320


 (1) notes -



     (a) the success achieved by the staff of

         Operation Neptune, as well as the

         difficult conditions under which they

         work to protect South Africa's marine

         resources from poachers and smugglers;



     (b) that since the inception of Operation

         Neptune in August 2000, 1 226 suspects

         have been arrested, spot fines of R189

         000 issued and 59 vehicles confiscated;



     (c) that 12 boats and trailers and abalone to

         the value of R12,9 million have also been

         confiscated;



     (d) that staff of Operation Neptune often

         find themselves being shot at during

         violent confrontations with poachers; and



     (e) Operation Neptune has managed to achieve

         this success despite a shortage of staff

         and resources; and
14 November 2001                               Page 127 of 320


 (2) appeals to its members to thank and

     congratulate everyone involved in Operation

     Neptune on the dedication with which these

     men and women protect South Africa's precious

     resources like abalone.]



Ms A VAN WYK: Chairperson, I hereby give notice

that on the next sitting day of the House I shall

move on behalf of the UDM:



 That the House -



 (1) notes that President Mbeki neglected to

     address some very important issues in his

     statement in the NCOP yesterday, such as that

     South Africa is not the crime capital of the

     world and that there are worse international

     examples;



 (2) acknowledges that President Mbeki also

     neglected to admit that the wide variety and

     incidence of violent crime in South Africa

     places us in the company of societies where
14 November 2001                             Page 128 of 320


     justice and the rule of law have completely

     disintegrated; and



 (3) acknowledges that South Africa's collective

     responsibility does not absolve President

     Mbeki and his Government from their

     constitutional responsibility to protect the

     safety of person and property of every South

     African.



                   BABEL-OUED STORMS



                   (Draft Resolution)



The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Mr

Chairperson, I move without notice:



That the House -



   (1) notes that hundreds of people have lost

       their lives in storms that devastated the

       Bab El-Oued district in Algeria over the

       past weekend; and
14 November 2001                                Page 129 of 320


   (2) extends its deepest sympathy to the

       bereaved and the people of Algeria.



Agreed to.



        REVENUE LAWS SECOND AMEMDMENT BILL



               (First Reading debate)



Ms B A HOGAN: Mr Chairperson, the Medium-Term

Budget Policy Statement this year has a very useful

quotation in it. It is as follows:



 Against the background of the tax reforms

 undertaken in the past two years, the 2002 Budget

 will herald a period of consolidation



I think everyone in this House and particularly in

our committee will welcome that commitment. I

wanted to bring this Bill to the House to show it

to members, but there was no wheelbarrow strong

enough to carry that Bill into this House.
14 November 2001                                Page 130 of 320


However, it has been a period of considerable tax

reforms that we have gone through in these last two

years and this Bill, in a sense, is a culmination

of much of the tax reforms that have been taking

place in the last two years. In particular, it

deals with capital gains tax. The final remaining

issues to be dealt with regarding capital gains tax

relate to company restructuring and how capital

gain will be dealt with in that way. The Bill also

covers amendments to previous Bills we have passed

relating to capital gains tax and refines those

clauses as well.



The Bill also amends 14 previous taxation laws. So

it is a Bill which covers a wide range of issues.

The speakers that will follow me, no doubt, will

speak to some of the most important parts of it.

Let me just mention that the secrecy provisions

relating to matters that come before the

commissioner, such as dealing with money-

laundering, are being dealt with. I know that

someone will be speaking on that. We are refining

the process of the way objections and appeals can

be lodged with the SA Revenue Service. Extensive
14 November 2001                               Page 131 of 320


research was done on that and it is also going to

be improved.



There are various matters relating to Siyakha,

which is the restructuring of the SA Revenue

Service. One bears in mind how vigorous and

resolute that restructuring has been. This Bill

deals with major components of that. It also deals

with amendments to the VAT laws, and to customs and

excise ... [Interjections] ... taxation of

controlled foreign entities and a number of other

more minor issues.



However, it is not to these issues in particular

that I want to speak. Firstly, there are just a

couple of issues that I think, from the committee's

perspective, we would want raised. The issue of

consolidation is very important. I am inundated by

people who are constantly phoning and writing to me

saying that the plethora of tax laws that have come

through have inundated them and they are unable to

cope with the amount of tax laws coming through.
14 November 2001                               Page 132 of 320


That is correct. The amount of tax reform that we

have undertaken has meant that a large amount of

tax legislation has come through. That has left tax

advisers and ordinary taxpayers in a difficult

position because they have to cope with the new

legislation. Many of them are battling to deal with

these changes. So this period of consolidation will

be very welcome so that people will be able to

familiarise themselves with the considerable

changes that have taken place in the tax policy. I

certainly do hope that this will be a period of

consolidation. [Interjections.]



In addition, there are one or two other matters.

The one is the taxation of the retirement fund

industry. This has been put on hold for quite some

time, and has been promised. We have to balance the

necessity of getting this overview over and done

with, with the requirements of quality legislation.

I know that we did set a timeframe of more or less

two years to look at the overhaul of the taxation

of the retirement fund industry, yet I appeal that

we do not stay too closely to those timeframes

because I do believe that we need time to look at
14 November 2001                                Page 133 of 320


this comprehensively and holistically, and manage a

very good quality Bill when it comes before

Parliament.



The taxation of the public benefit organisations

has gone a considerable way. There are still

refinements that have to be added to the lists of

those public benefit organisations that will

benefit. I am hoping that this will come through in

the next year so that NGOs will have a better

understanding of their tax dispensation. The review

of tax on banks is in the pipeline and that is

certainly going to take up a lot of the SA Revenue

Service's energies.



Another issue is the simplification of the Income

Tax Act. We need to address it. I do bear in mind

the load that tax officials are carrying, but we do

need a simplification of the Income Tax Act. It is

very complex, very comprehensive and we do need it

to be simplified. We also need it to be put into

plain English. I think it is, at this stage, very

difficult for most people to understand the

particular Income Tax Act.
14 November 2001                               Page 134 of 320


The reforms that have taken place in the last two

years have not been the only reforms that we have

seen. Yes, they have been mighty reforms. I was

looking at the 1994 Budget Review and the Katz

commission that reported in 1994, and it is

astonishing to realise how far we have come in

achieving so many of the reforms that were mooted

at that stage.



The reforms of personal income tax have been

considerable. We have narrowed and lessened the

income tax brackets. The thresholds at which people

come into the income tax system have been

increased, making it far easier for people earning

low salaries to deal with income tax. The reduction

in the gradation of the marginal rates schedule has

been considerably improved. Adjustments for

inflation have gone ahead very well in the last two

years. We have seen considerable tax relief,

particularly in the last two years and particularly

to the lower and middle-income groups, which has

been very beneficial. It has acted as a stimulus to

the economy. We have seen tax relief for company

taxes as well.
14 November 2001                                Page 135 of 320


What is often overlooked, too, is that, within the

first 18 months of us coming to Parliament, we

removed all gender discrimination in tax laws,

which was a considerable achievement at the time if

one looks back to the complexities related to that.

It is astonishing that those gender discriminations

remained within our taxation system.



If one looks at how the revenue service has managed

to reform itself from an institution which was

regarded by the Katz commission and the Margo

commission as an institution that was in dire need

of reform and virtually on the point of collapse,

and how under this Government the necessary

mechanisms have been brought into place to overhaul

the tax administration system, the changes are

absolutely phenomenal. Those changes have, no

doubt, led to what Judge Dennis Davies referred to

as Sars ``glittering performance'' in collecting

tax over the last couple of years.



It has also been because the taxation basis of this

country has changed. Not only have we been able to

bring more and more people, who previously did not
14 November 2001                               Page 136 of 320


regard themselves as legitimate taxpayers because

they believed that the government was an

illegitimate regime, into the tax net, but we have

also expanded the tax base whilst reducing the

individual burden of individual taxpayers. We have

expanded the base and reduced the individual

burden. This means that we have been able to

collect revenues previously unanticipated.



I would like to congratulate Sars and the Ministry

on performing in a very dedicated and resolute way

to overhaul not only the system of our revenue

collection, but the entire basis of our taxation

system, which has brought us into a new, globalised

world as well. [Applause.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon

Barbara Hogan, I hope that you were not planning to

extend the tax base to cover the local customs and

physical exercises. [Laughter.]



Mr K M ANDREW: Mr Chairman, it is always a pleasure

to follow the hon Ms Hogan, and I am pleased that
14 November 2001                              Page 137 of 320


she has survived the year and is still able to keep

standing for 10 minutes.



In the time available, there are a few important

issues that I would like to cover. The first is the

problem of civil society not being given enough

time to prepare their comments for the committee

hearings. In the past, we in the DP have simply

registered our concern, but today I want to

elaborate a little.



The submissions and evidence of the private sector

and civil society are critical to the work of the

Portfolio Committee on Finance, particularly in the

area of taxation. Much of the legislation that we

deal with is extremely complex and one requires the

input of experts to be able to evaluate it. For

example, one of the 190 clauses in this Bill amends

part of the Income Tax Act, and the part it amends

is section 9D(9)(h)(ii)(bb). One can imagine how

easy that is to follow for people who are not tax

experts, which is the case with most of us who are

on the committee.
14 November 2001                                Page 138 of 320


Private sector organisations have complained

repeatedly over the years, to little avail. As our

tax legislation has become dramatically more

complex over the past two years, the problem has

worsened. Let me quote from a submission from

Saica, the SA Institute of Chartered Accountants:



 Saica has been requested to furnish comments on

 the various budgets of the legislation, which

 comments were forwarded directly to the

 commissioner of Sars. The one concern that must

 be raised relating to the budgets of legislation

 made available to Saica is the fact that we are

 only supplied with copies of the draft

 amendments, and are not privy to the underlying

 rationale of the commissioner seeking the

 specific amemdments proposed.



 As has been pointed out to this honourable

 committee previously, the commissioner allows a

 reasonable time for comment in respect of the

 earlier budgets and as a deadline for finalising

 the amendment approaches, so the time to comment

 is reduced.
14 November 2001                              Page 139 of 320


 We wish to place on record our concern on the

 extreme deadline placed upon us to submit proper

 and written comments to this committee on

 legislation comprising 233 pages.



 Saica only received the composite version on 10

 October 2001, therefore it was not possible for

 Saica to submit written comments to the committee

 before the deadline imposed on us.



 The difficulties that must be noted are that

 certain sections which were contained in the

 draft legislation made available to us have now

 been removed from the composite Bill.

 Furthermore, certain new sections have now been

 inserted.



 It becomes very difficult to comment properly on

 a Bill of 233 pages where one is unable to

 readily ascertain which sections are new and

 which ones have been amended from those

 previously seen by us.
14 November 2001                                Page 140 of 320


They are not alone. Virtually all the private

sector bodies share that view. The consequences of

rushing into taxation on foreign dividends,

residence-based taxation and capital gains tax have

been seriously harmful to our economy. The DA

warned about the problems likely to be caused by

ramming through CGT legislation earlier this year.

But, what has happened? I quote again from Sica

referring to Schedule 8 of the Act:



 The CTG was introduced by way of the Schedule 8

 in Act 5, promulgated on 28 June 2001. The

 schedule originally comprised some 86 paragraphs.

 That schedule was subsequently amended by Act 19

 on 27 July 2001. Act 19 amended 11 paragraphs in

 the Schedule 8. The current Bill under

 consideration by this committee seeks to amend 52

 paragraphs out of the 86 originally contained in

 the Act.



 We, as an institute, requested that the date of

 implementation of the tax be postponed to 1 March

 2002, so as to ensure that the legislation would

 be finalised by the date on which it took effect.
14 November 2001                                Page 141 of 320


 We believe that it is unfortunate that 52 of the

 86 paragraphs dealing with the tax are now being

 amended, and that such amendments will clearly

 only be promulgated after the date of

 implementation on 1 October 2001.



In just five months there have had to be three

amendments for every four paragraphs in that

schedule. On average, 75% of the law has had to be

amended in just four months. I do not know whether

it is a fuss or a disgrace, or both.



What harm has been done by this plethora of new

taxes? Firstly, South Africa has become less

attractive to skilled foreigners. People we

desperately need are being discouraged from

settling in South Africa. Retirement funds will

once again be adversely affected and small business

is being harmed by the introduction of increasingly

complex tax legislation.



We need to recognise that the best way to raise the

most revenue, while reducing individual taxes, is

to grow the economy. The sad fact is that the
14 November 2001                                Page 142 of 320


combination of new taxes introduced over the past

two years will be extremely harmful to our economy.

What is sadder still, is that by the time

Government wakes up to that fact, much of the

damage would already have been done.



One may ask: Does Government not see this danger?

The answer may well lie in the response given by

Sars. Submissions were made to the committee that

the starting dates for valuing shares for CGT

purposes should be changed because of the negative

impact on markets after the 11 September 2001

terrorists attacks. Otherwise, Government would

receive an unwarranted windfall of CGT amounting to

billions of rands.



The response from Sars was that the JSE all-share

index is not significantly lower than it was on 1

April 2001 - it is only 6% lower in six months.

Only somebody who has a mind-set which says that

all shareholders, including pension funds, are rich

and should not complain about being fleeced, would

suggest that a 6% drop in six months in an
14 November 2001                                Page 143 of 320


individual's capital or retirement savings is not

significant.



That is the mind-set which we are dealing with.

That is the mind-set which will deter investors,

shackle entrepreneurs and destroy many small and

medium enterprises. It is the opposite of the mind-

set which South Africa needs to address poverty and

unemployment. The DA will be opposing this Bill.



Mr H J BEKKER: Chairperson, the Second Revenue Laws

Amendment Bill is more than a mouthful. In my 20

years of political representation I have never seen

a Bill as thick, long and detailed as this

particular one. I wonder whether the Minister wants

to confuse us with paperwork. More than 250 pages

with 189 amendments to the income tax or revenue

laws have been effected. The IFP is in agreement

with many of these amendments, but of course,

certain concerns will remain with regard to a

limited number of these clauses. On the whole,

however, we are supportive and the IFP will vote

for this Bill.
14 November 2001                               Page 144 of 320


Regarding the Bill, I will, in the limited time at

my disposal, refer to the following aspects of the

amendments - the relaxation of the secrecy

provisions in income tax, customs and VAT laws to

facilitate prosecution of offenders, particularly

drug traffickers and money-launderers. A proviso is

that the secrecy provisions could be breached only

in the case of a serious offence. A possible legal

challenge regarding the right to privacy has been

overcome by the insertion of two clauses to protect

this particular aspect.



The confidentiality of information supplied by

taxpayers remains a fundamental principle of

taxation. However, Sars should be able to pass on

information obtained which reveals evidence of a

serious non-tax offence or of an eminent and

serious public safety or environmental risk. This

is also in line with international trends and in

the general public interest, as such disclosure

outweighs the potential harm to the taxpayer's

concerns, and the IFP is in full agreement with

this.
14 November 2001                             Page 145 of 320


The Bill also enables Sars to make regulations

about dispute procedures in order to prevent costly

litigation. In this regard, the Bill allows for

pre-trial conferences to establish the issues and

to reach a settlement before the matter is referred

to a court for taxpayers and tax practitioners. The

Bill further provides for tax relief for corporate

restructuring, but has come in for heavy criticism

regarding the fact that the provisions will apply

retroactively from 1 October, although companies

will be given until 1 December to take advantage of

existing legislation.



The Bill makes further amendments to capital gains

tax provisions. Some 52 of the original 86 clauses

are to be amended. This has led to strong criticism

from practitioners because the amendments will only

come into force after the tax becomes effective,

and that is on 1 December 2001. Furthermore, it

could be argued that all capital gains legislation

should be consolidated to ensure easier compliance

and understanding for taxpayers and tax

practitioners.
14 November 2001                                Page 146 of 320


The provision dealing with the weighted average

training price of listed shares for capital gains

tax has also come in for considerable criticism.

The argument has been raised that using the five

days before 28 September had a distorting effect

because of the 11 September attacks on the United

States. The terrorist attacks in America led to a

general decline in share prices in the latter half

of September. Capital gains tax, of course, took

effect on 1 October.



As of 28 September 2001, the JSE all-share index

reflected a 6% decline since 1 April 2001. This

represents a significant decline in the rand value

of South African shares. With regard to the top 10

shares on the all-share index, this could

potentially represent a R2,5 billion windfall for

the Minister and Sars. In theory, the decline has

presented Sars with an abnormally low base in

respect of investors as it represents the

difference between the published Sars value and

ruling price. Sars indicated that a small investor

in unit trusts could utilise his R10 000 annual
14 November 2001                               Page 147 of 320


exemption to counter the effect of the artificial

gain.



The prices of major shares have continued to

increase in value since 28 September and, as a

result of changing market value on valuation date

of listed equities, it will probably benefit Sars

to the extent that I have mentioned before.

Theoretically, if the terrorist attacks had taken

place after 1 October 2001, the contrary, of

course, would have been applicable. We understand

that the Minister must juggle and play the odds of

the shares market. This time he has again won.



The IFP nevertheless supports the legislation and

we will vote for the Second Revenue Laws Amendment

Bill.



Dr P J RABIE: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon

members, the Second Revenue Laws Amendment Bill is

a very complex piece of legislation, and I think

some of the speakers have referred to the fact that

it is more than 233 pages long. It is also very

complex and an example of the complexity of this
14 November 2001                                Page 148 of 320


particular Bill is the numerous amendments that

were made to this Bill. In terms of the current

legislation, the taxpayer may lodge an appeal

against an assessment or certain decisions of the

Commissioner to the specially constituted court for

hearing income tax appeals.



The present procedures followed in the special

court are basically those followed in the

magistrates' courts. The present procedures have

shortcomings, however, with reference to the

discovery of documents defining the issues and

disputes, etc. This Bill will provide for tax

courts, provide for the registrar of the court and

grant specific powers to the court to make orders,

etc. Provision is made for settlement of disputes.

This Bill also provides for an extended Bench when

the amount in dispute exceeds R50 million or where

the taxpayer and the Commissioner agree thereto

that the case may be heard by a component with

three judges.



The Bill also refers to the writing off of taxes,

duties and levies, especially if the recovery of
14 November 2001                                Page 149 of 320


the debt will be uneconomical to the state. In line

with international best practice, the secrecy

provisions are amended so that employees of Sars

will be allowed to share information that is in the

national interest with other organs of state. I

think some of the other speakers, such as the

chairperson Ms Barbara Hogan, referred to money-

laundering and so forth, and I think that if we

want to retain our credit rating, it is very

important that we apply this particular Act.



Allow me to thank the officials of Sars and the

Treasury for allowing all interested parties to

respond during a number of public hearings. Their

submissions really gave us insight into the

complexity of this Bill. A number of valid

arguments were raised during the hearings and again

I think the Life Offices Association made a very

worthy contribution when they specifically referred

to paragraph 29 of Schedule 8 where they state that

the time-based apportionment and method may

preclude the use of the weighted average bases for

all listed financial instruments.
14 November 2001                               Page 150 of 320


This Bill also allows for capital gains tax relief

in respect of transactions between group companies

or between founding shareholders and their company.

Again, we know that capital gains is very

controversial and we feel that some of these

regulations referring to capital gains tax will

have to be amended in future.



The Bill provides for unbundling transactions and

transactions relating to the liquidation, winding-

up and deregistration of a company. Section

9D(9)(b) were also amended and refer to capital

gains in respect of foreign subsidiaries. In a

submission during the public hearings of the

Portfolio Committee on Finance, it was mentioned

that a capital gain may accrue over a number of

years. It may be wise, again, to amend this

subsection in as far as only the number of whole

years and not parts thereof could be taken into

account when the capital gain is calculated.



In essence, this Bill enables South African

business to participate within the global economy,

and sections 9D and 9H provide for participant
14 November 2001                                Page 151 of 320


exemption where this controlled foreign entity

holds more than 25% of the equity share capital in

that other foreign entity. This clause will also

help to distinguish between active management

interest in a foreign company and passive portfolio

investment. The New NP supports this Bill.



Prof B TUROK: Chairperson, one is really quite

flabbergasted at the behaviour of the DP on this

occasion. Here is a Bill which in print is 132

pages long, with massive detail, and what does the

DP do? It opposes the Bill. I would say that it is

clear to me that the motive for the opposition is

totally political. [Interjections.] It is totally a

political manoeuvre because they are going to go to

the public and say that the DP defends the

interests of the private sector and the Government

does not. That is their reason for the objection.

[Interjections.]



When one listens to the hon Andrew and the petty

objections that he raised here, one can see no

reason in principle why the DP should object to

this particular Bill. It is a massive Bill, let us
14 November 2001                                Page 152 of 320


accept that. It is very complex too, and we have

really been through wringer in respect of

discussions, assessment and evaluation in the

committee. One had hoped that having been through

all that, we would all agree that this is a

necessary Bill - complex yes, but necessary.



One wonders whether the hon Andrew is not being a

little disingenuous when he complains about the

short timescale in which people could raise

objections. We were given to understand by

officials and experts that some of the objections

and complaints of the short time for response, were

actually merely to repeat the arguments which we

have been through many times.



And in some cases - I will not say all - there was

clearly a stalling element in the objections about

the time given to people to respond. So I would say

that we have been through a very thorough process.

The Bill is understood by the committee, that is by

those who attended regularly at least, which was

not always the hon Andrew, and the Bill must

proceed.
14 November 2001                               Page 153 of 320


Mr K M ANDREW: He is a liar.



Prof B TUROK: Chairperson, on a point of order, I

want to ask for your protection. I am being accused

of lying, which is unparliamentary.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon

Andrew, I heard that and I would like you to

withdraw it.



Mr K M ANDREW: Certainly, I withdraw. I am sorry, I

thought the hon member was still on the ...



Prof B TUROK: Let me say to the hon Andrew that it

is a blatant ruse to accuse someone of lying and

then to withdraw. This is rather petty and should

not happen in this Parliament. [Interjections.]

Chairperson, I am not going to be harassed by this

gentleman because he has no sensible arguments ...

[Interjections.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon

Turok, once a member has withdrawn, one may not

refer further to that remark. That remark is
14 November 2001                               Page 154 of 320


withdrawn. Order! Let us listen to this point of

order.



The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY:

Chairperson, I accept that, but then the member

must not follow it up with another unparliamentary

comment by saying that the hon member Turok is

telling an untruth.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon

member, the point is upheld because it is in the

best tradition of Parliament that one keeps the

decorum and dignity of Parliament. It is not

honourable, having withdrawn a comment, to repeat

it. If it is withdrawn, it must be withdrawn. And

as for the speaker at the podium, the remark that

has been withdrawn may not be referred to. So it is

applicable to all sides and I trust that hon

members will honour the best traditions of

Parliament.



Prof B TUROK: Chairperson, I think the best way

that I can honour that is to say that I will not

refer to the hon Andrew in any debate again. Is
14 November 2001                                Page 155 of 320


that acceptable? [Applause.] Can I proceed with my

speech?



In our discussions on taxation in this House, the

focus has often been, especially at Budget time, on

the rate of taxation that is being applied; who is

going to gain and who is not going to gain and so

on. The rate of taxation has been the focus. From

that flowed a consideration about the South African

tax base, and it has been made clear to this House

that what is very important for the survival of

South Africa and for its efficient running is for

the tax base to be maintained and protected.



Recently we have had a lot of discussion in the

finance committee and in this House about the

importance of broadening the tax base. We have had

discussions on whether people are paying more. Who

is paying more? Are there dodgers? Is there tax

evasion or tax avoidance? How does that affect the

broadening of the tax base?



This Bill takes a slightly different approach, and

the essential point made in our discussions and
14 November 2001                                Page 156 of 320


briefings is that what is critical is that we need

to protect the tax base - not only to broaden it,

but to protect it against people who manipulate

taxation in many ways. What has also been indicated

to us is that this becomes particularly important

in the period of globalisation and in the

integration of South Africa into the world economy,

because this is providing opportunities for people

to erode the tax base. Therefore, Sars, rightly,

has put this Bill on the table with one of the

reasons being that we need to protect the tax base

in the period of globalisation.



We were informed, as many of us know, that there

are countries which give certain concessions in

order for them to compete against each other and to

compete against South Africa. What is happening is

that in some countries there is a race to the

bottom of taxation by providing concessions in

order to attract foreign investments. We were told

that the OECD is, indeed, targeting harmful tax

practices which fall in this area of eroding

taxation in a variety of countries, particularly

emerging market countries, which enables other
14 November 2001                                Page 157 of 320


countries to compete for capital investment. They

give concessions which, in fact, undermine the tax

base of South Africa and other countries. That is

what is happening.



Of course we are anxious to get foreign investment.

This is basic policy and we are doing that. But the

principle that has been followed is that if one

earns money in South Africa, one should pay tax

here before one leaves. This protects the tax base.

Because what some fly-by-night businesses are doing

is that they come into the country and leave

without paying that tax, and so this undermines our

tax base. Taxpayers, we are told by Sars, cannot

reap the economic benefit of the South African

infrastructure and then depart from the country

with this accrued benefit without paying their fair

share of tax.



So what we are saying to the world business

community is that by all means, it should come into

South Africa, do its work here and accrue the

benefits, but it should pay its tax and not leave

here before it has done so. This is essential, as I
14 November 2001                                Page 158 of 320


say, to protect our tax base. But, of course,

foreign investors are also protected in other ways.

There are mutual agreements between different

countries which give relief abroad so that they do

not have to pay twice.



I want to refer to the fact that South African

taxpayers themselves sometimes behave in an

undesirable manner because they have a great deal

of liquid capital. The press is often referring to

the fact that South African capital flows outside

in a way which is unhelpful to the economy.

Sometimes funds are shifted abroad to a subsidiary

in a tax haven, and at other times the headquarters

of a company shifts abroad to a lower tax area. The

Treasury has said to us that if we are too

restrictive in our taxation, the headquarters will

go offshore, if we are too liberal, the companies

send their assets offshore.



What Sars is trying to do is to have a balanced

system, and this is what this Bill is about, to

ensure that there are incentives for South African

companies to stay onshore, to remain here, so that
14 November 2001                               Page 159 of 320


we have the benefit of not only the economic

investment, but also the taxes that they pay. Time

restricts me from elaborating developing furtheron

the issue. [Time expired.] [Applause.]



Dr G W KOORNHOF: Mr Chairperson and hon members,

with the length of the Bill and its explanatory

memorandum, the final Bill amounting to 218 pages,

it is unrealistic to discuss it comprehensively in

the three minutes allocated to me.



Let me therefore highlight four issues that we view

as important. Firstly, we applaud the removal of

the secrecy provisions regarding the Income Tax

Act, the Value-Added Tax Act and the Customs and

Excise Act. It is fair that the Commissioner for

the SA Revenue Service will now be able to disclose

information to the National Commissioner of the SA

Police Service and the National Director of Public

Prosecutions where such information relates to a

serious offence or an imminent and serious public

safety risk. Such information can only be disclosed

through an order issued by a judge in chambers.
14 November 2001                                Page 160 of 320


Secondly, corporate rules in this Bill provide for

group relief measures in respect of transactions

between group companies or between founding

shareholders and their company. These measures

cover corporate formations, corporate share-to-

share takeovers, corporate liquidations,

unbundlings and asset transfers within a single

corporate group.



Thirdly, there is now a finality regarding the

method of determining the market value of shares

listed on a securities exchange on valuation date.

Not all role-players and people may like this

method but at least it will be difficult to

manipulate. Fourthly, a new subclause in the Bill

aims to permit supplies of goods to industrial

development zones, to be made at zero-rate tax. We

are in favour of investigating the feasibility of

export processing or industrial development zones,

and therefore support this new subclause.



In conclusion, with the introduction of the complex

capital gains tax six weeks ago, together with

scores of highly technical amendments since then,
14 November 2001                                Page 161 of 320


the situation with regard to the implementation of

capital gains tax has become very confusing and

complicated. In Afrikaans we say ``dit is 'n

deurmekaarspul''. I want to suggest to the Minister

and the commissioner that they should consider

producing, as soon as possible, a consolidated

version of the Schedule 8, dealing with capital

gains tax, and distributing it as widely as

possible to all stakeholders. Following such a

consolidated document must be a layman's guide to

capital gains tax, which can become a reference

document and must be easy to understand by

taxpayers.



The UDM supports the Revenue Laws Second Amendment

Bill. [Applause.]



Mr I S MFUNDISI: Mr Chairperson, the Minister of

Finance is always at pains to make life easier for

the people of this country and has consequently won

the hearts of the international community and

ordinary South Africans for the masterly manner in

which he handles his portfolio. After he laid down

ways and means of bringing poverty to its knees in
14 November 2001                                Page 162 of 320


the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, he is now

calling on us to allow him to reform tax laws.



The Bill seeks to address shortcomings in tax laws

on the basis of which the Commissioner for the SA

Revenue Service has lost court cases. The current

objections and appeals procedures against the SA

Revenue Service are roundabout and take a long time

to reach a solution. The amendment seeks to bring

about a quick process from problem to solution. The

new procedure will demand of the Minister to make

rules in respect of time-limits that had to be

adhered to in dealing with objections. The

commissioner will be empowered to write off debts,

depending on reasonable steps that are presented to

him or her.



The fact that to this end the Bench consists of a

retired judge, will be improved by having three

judges instead. Whatever decisions will be arrived

at will be taken by the three judges - a measure

that will obviously cut down on the number of

appeals to the High Court or even the Supreme Court

of Appeal, as is always the case.
14 November 2001                                Page 163 of 320


In keeping with our democratic order and our

determination to be transparent, the secrecy

clauses in the Value-Added Tax Act, the Income Tax

Act and the Customs and Excise Act are being toned

down in order to allow the SA Revenue Service to

disclose information if it is of public interest,

as in the event of criminal offences. We appreciate

that the release of information will still be

controlled as the Minister will still have to give

permission on the advice of a judge regarding the

need for the release of such information.

Information can still be released for statistical

purposes and when needed by the SA Reserve Bank.



The UCDP supports the Bill.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon

members, could you conduct your business in

whispers.



Mr N M NENE: Chairperson, hon members, when this

House passed an Act on capital gains tax, it was

made abundantly clear that there would be

subsequent amendments that would enable us to
14 November 2001                                Page 164 of 320


facilitate implementation. The Bill before us today

takes us well into the realisation of our dream of

a just, fair and equitable tax system.



This Bill introduces amendments to about 14 Acts in

total, ranging from the Marketable Securities Act

of 1948, the Transfer Duty Act of 1949, the Estate

Duty Act of 1955, through to the Revenue Laws

Amendment Act of 2001. As we have heard from the

previous speakers how wide-ranging these amendments

are, let me confine myself to some aspects which I

feel require some emphasis.



After considerable and extensive research, some

ways and means have been found to streamline and

fast-track the processes around dispute resolution.

In terms of the proposed amendments, the

legislation will allow for court rules to be made

on the procedures for purposes of noting an

objection and lodging an appeal. These rules will

deal with the time-periods within which and the

manner in which an objection and appeal must be

noted, as well as the processes to be followed up

to the hearing of the appeal in the tax court.
14 November 2001                                Page 165 of 320


This legislation will also establish the tax courts

which will provide for the Registrar of the Court

and grant specific powers to the court to make

orders, such as the granting of costs, etc.

Currently, the court may not make an order as to

costs unless the claim of the commissioner is held

to be reasonable or the grounds of appeal are

frivolous, or where the decision of the special

board is substantially confirmed.



Proposals are made that in addition to the above

provisions, the following be added: If the appeal

is withdrawn or conceded by one of the parties

after the date of hearing has been allocated by the

registrar, then costs may be awarded. Also, if the

hearing of the appeal is postponed at the request

of one of the parties, then again costs may be

awarded.



The regulations will provide for a mechanism to be

put in place in order to facilitate the settlement

of disputes between the taxpayer and the

commissioner. This entails the pre-trial meetings

which are made possible by the insertion of section
14 November 2001                                Page 166 of 320


107B in the Income Tax Act of 1962, which empowers

the Minister of Finance to prescribe the

circumstances under which the commissioner may, for

purposes of the settlement of any dispute between

the commissioner and a taxpayer, waive a claim

against that taxpayer in whole or in part. Disputes

in excess of R50 million - a lot of speakers have

highlighted this - will be dealt with by an

extended Bench of three judges.



The secrecy provisions have also been touched upon,

where taxpayers are currently protected by the

secrecy provisions that prohibit Sars from

disclosing any information that has come to its

knowledge, in order to encourage taxpayers to make

full disclosure and to protect the individual's

fundamental right to privacy. We have heard how

this is being addressed. Sars may disclose

information to the Treasury, the Department of

Trade and Industry and the Reserve Bank in relation

to imports and exports and may also release

information to the National Director of Public

Prosecutions and the SAPS for law-enforcement

purposes. The conditions under which these
14 November 2001                                Page 167 of 320


disclosures may be applied are also explained. It

can only be disclosed if the safety of the public

and the environment are at risk. Also, the public

interest must outweigh any potential harm to the

taxpayer concerned.



There is also a programme called Siyakha, which is

intended to make Sars more efficient. We have

spoken about this programme in this House on a

number of occasions. It has already commenced and

is registering tremendous success, both in terms of

service delivery and efficiency. Some of the

transformation in this initiative is meant to

improve capacity to administer capital gains tax.

Allow me to invite members and society at large to

take advantage of Sars's website and the media

advertisements that have been splashed in almost

all our print media recently. This has a lot of

information on capital gains tax, including how

evaluations will work and how this will affect all

of us.



Internationally capital gains tax regimes provide

for varying degrees of relief in respect of
14 November 2001                                Page 168 of 320


transactions between group companies and founding

shareholders and their companies. This is based on

the view that where groups or shareholders retain a

substantial interest in the asset transferred, it

is appropriate to permit a tax-free transfer of

assets. This is, unfortunately, commonly abused for

tax avoidance purposes. The proposed legislation,

therefore, strikes a balance between the breadth

and the concessions and the potential for tax

avoidance.



Equity has always been at the heart of the

introduction of capital gains tax and the

consequential amendments only ensure that this

ideal is achieved as enshrined in our Constitution

and our Freedom Charter. It has also been

interesting to note how the opposition has always

tried, in this debate and elsewhere, to demonise

capital gains tax under a number of pretexts, such

as the non-readiness of Sars, the complex nature of

the tax and that it will stifle investment. Nothing

could be further from the truth. These amendments

only serve to finetune that, and we shall continue
14 November 2001                               Page 169 of 320


to review and evaluate these Acts in this

Parliament led by the mighty ANC.



I would like to thank Sars' and the Treasury's

officials under the able leadership of the

commissioner and the Ministry, respectively, for

the commitment and dedication they have

demonstrated in producing this piece of legislation

under enormous pressure and time constraints. The

ANC supports the Bill and commends all who support

it, and urges those that do not, to change their

minds. [Applause.]



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, hon members,

I think we must start by just reminding ourselves

that the area of tax law that we are dealing with

is always going to be a complex one. This is not

about big policy changes, but about trying to deal

with practice. And, in dealing with practice, there

are always issues. Those who overcomplicate the

practice of tax law are always first in the queue

at the committee to lobby the changes not be

implemented.
14 November 2001                                Page 170 of 320


It is a bit disingenuous for Saica to come along

and say that we must please not implement those

changes when, at the end of the day, it is their

members who are at the opposite end of the debate

on a day-to-day basis. And so, clearly, it is not a

desirable position to bring 190 amendments before a

committee, especially at this time of the year, but

I really appeal that members of this House should

understand that it is an unbelievably complex area,

because one is trading off and dealing on a day-to-

day basis with the representatives of taxpayers

whose one objective is not to pay tax and a

receiver charged by law and by this House, in

particular, with the task of collecting it. So, it

is in that context that these issues arise.



In respect of the changes to CGT, firstly, one must

go back to the announcement on 21 February last

year, and the very intensive and exhaustive

negotiations and participation that took place

between then and 1 October. But, as the roll-out

started, it became clear that there would have to

be some adjustments, some of them at the request of

the organisations on the other side of the deals. I
14 November 2001                               Page 171 of 320


think it is correct to say that the changes that we

are effecting here are largely textual, refining

those that provide certainty and, in one instance

certainly, the provision of further relief.



The issue of share values on 1 October was raised

and the fact that they were 6% lower than on 1

April. That was only one of the reasons. But it is

important that, in the same way as we can see at

the other end where there has been manipulation,

any manipulation here will be punished.



I am sure that many of the organisations who

complained about the difference in evaluation,

which clearly was not as bad as they suggested that

it would be, would not necessarily tell us what the

losses were from their global equity funds, which

were substantially more than 6%. People go abroad

and act with gay abandon, but when it comes to the

taxes that must be paid, certainly it becomes an

issue. We know that when they tell us that the gold

price was 27% higher on 1 October than it was on 1

April. These are issues and I think they arise in
14 November 2001                                Page 172 of 320


the context of a stand-off between the need to

collect taxes and the refusal to pay taxes.



The request raised by the hon Koornhof for simple

legislation that is readily available should be

considered. The problem is, of course, that what we

are talking about is not the big policy issues. The

Revenue Law Second Amendment Bill deals, in the

main, with the practice issues, and so tends to

become dated. But, a simplified and consolidated

piece of legislation will be available on the Sars

website shortly.



Let me again express appreciation to the members of

the Portfolio Committee on Finance. They have

worked exceedingly hard this year. They brought

this final legislation here to this point, and it

is the nature of the beast that there would be

disagreements about this. I want to thank them very

much for the exceedingly hard work in considering

this Bill. [Applause.]



Debate concluded.
14 November 2001                             Page 173 of 320


Bill read a first time (Democratic Pary

dissenting).



                   DISABILITY EQUITY



                      (Amendment)



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon

members, before I proceed with the next Order, I

want to bring to your attention a publication by

the DPSA parliamentary office on the Disability

Equity. This is an empowerment tool. It is a book

that I would like to commend to you and to your

constituencies.



        REVENUE LAWS SECOND AMENDMENT BILL



               (Second Reading debate)



Order disposed of without debate.



Bill read a second time.



     UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE CONTRIBUTIONS BILL
14 November 2001                                Page 174 of 320


                   (Introduction)



The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, hon members,

the unemployment ... [Interjections.] I think the

sound technicians are on strike.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Can

you hear the hon the Minister? Not yet?



The MINISTER: Chairperson, I trust that the House

can hear me now.



The Unemployment Insurance Contributions Bill is

the other part of the Insurance Fund Bill. It

allows for collections of unemployment insurance

contributions, and it is all about trying to

improve on the health of the Unemployment Insurance

Fund.



The Unemployment Insurance Contributions Bill will

address the deficiencies that we have noted in

collections and payouts and the real difficulties

encountered in balancing the books there, but it

will address this deficiency by imposing a stricter
14 November 2001                                Page 175 of 320


compliance regime on employers and by transferring

the bulk of the collection function to the SA

Revenue Service. The link between contributions

made by employees and benefits claimed will also

assist in detecting defaulting and employers and

unwarranted claims. The information required to

establish and maintain this link will be collected

and held by the Unemployment Insurance

Commissioner.



I know that we have the interest of members here,

and I am told by certain chairpersons of committees

that there is a big party and that I should not be

too long. So, let me move the Unemployment

Insurance Contributions Bill. [Applause.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon

members, I am not sure what you are applauding -

whether it is the party or the resolution that was

adopted earlier on.



Bill referred for consideration and report to the

Portfolio Committee on Labour in accordance with

the resolution adopted by the House today.
14 November 2001                               Page 176 of 320

 JUDGES' REMUNERATION AND CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYMENT

                        BILL



   (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)



Order disposed of without debate.



Report adopted and Bill agreed to.



                      GAS BILL



   (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)



Order disposed of without debate.



Report adopted and Bill agreed to.



       INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT AMENDMENT BILL



   (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)



Order disposed of without debate.



Report adopted and Bill agreed to.
14 November 2001                              Page 177 of 320

         MERCHANDISE MARKS AMENDMENT BILL



   (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)



Order disposed of without debate.



Report adopted and Bill agreed to.



        LAND AFFAIRS GENERAL AMENDMENT BILL



   (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)



Order disposed of without debate.



Report adopted and Bill agreed to.



 MARKETING OF AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS AMENDMENT BILL



   (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)



Order disposed of without debate.



Report adopted and Bill agreed to.
14 November 2001                              Page 178 of 320

        CULTURAL LAWS SECOND AMENDMENT BILL



                 (Consideration of Bill)



Order disposed of without debate.



Bill agreed to.



             HOURS OF SITTING OF HOUSE



                     (Announcement)



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I wish

to inform hon members that the House will sit at

14:30 tomorrow.



The House adjourned at 19:04.

                       __________



   ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS



ANNOUNCEMENTS:



National Assembly:
14 November 2001                                 Page 179 of 320


1.   The Speaker:



     (1) The Unemployment Insurance Contributions

         Bill [B 85 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec

         77) was introduced in the National Assembly

         by the Minister of Finance on 14 November

         2001. In accordance with a resolution

         passed by the National Assembly on 14

         November 2001, the Bill has been referred

         to the Portfolio Committee on Labour. The

         Bill has been referred to the Joint Tagging

         Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms

         of Joint Rule 160.



     (2) Bills passed by National Assembly on 14

         November 2001: To be submitted to President

         of the Republic for assent:



         (i)    Judges' Remuneration and Conditions

                of Employment Bill [B 83B - 2001]

                (National Assembly - sec 75).



         (ii)   Gas Bill [B 18D - 2001] (National

                Assembly - sec 75).
14 November 2001                               Page 180 of 320

       (iii)   Industrial Development Amendment

               Bill [B 32D - 2001] (National

               Assembly - sec 76).



       (iv)    Merchandise Marks Amendment Bill [B

               33D - 2001] (National Assembly - sec

               75).



       (v)     Land Affairs General Amendment Bill

               [B 71D - 2001] (National Assembly -

               sec 75).



       (vi)    Marketing of Agricultural Products

               Amendment Bill [B 26D - 2001]

               (National Assembly - sec 76).



   (3) Message from National Council of Provinces

       to National Assembly:



       Bills, subject to proposed amendments,

       passed by National Council of Provinces on

       14 November 2001 and transmitted for

       consideration of Council's proposed

       amendments:
14 November 2001                                  Page 181 of 320

       (i) Telecommunications Amendment Bill [B

              65B - 2001] (National Assembly - sec

              75) (for proposed amendments, see

              Announcements, Tablings and Committee

              Reports, p 1282).



       The Bill has been referred to the Portfolio

       Committee on Communications of the National

       Assembly for a report on the amendments

       proposed by the Council.



       (ii)      Pension Funds Second Amendment Bill

                 [B 41B - 2001] (National Assembly -

                 sec 75) (for proposed amendments,

                 see Announcements, Tablings and

                 Committee Reports, p 1377).



       The Bill has been referred to the Portfolio

       Committee on Finance of the National

       Assembly for a report on the amendments

       proposed by the Council.



       (iii)     Unemployment Insurance Bill [B 3B -

                 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75)
14 November 2001                                 Page 182 of 320


                 (for proposed amendments, see

                 Announcements, Tablings and

                 Committee Reports, p 1378).



          The Bill has been referred to the Portfolio

          Committee on Labour of the National

          Assembly for a report on the amendments

          proposed by the Council.



TABLINGS:



National Assembly and National Council of

Provinces:



Papers:



1.   The Minister of Public Works:



     Written explanation, dated 12 November 2001,

     from the Department of Public Works in terms of

     section 65(2)(a) of the Public Finance

     Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999),

     setting out the reasons why the department
14 November 2001                               Page 183 of 320


   could not table its Annual Report and Financial

   Statements for 2000-2001 in time:



   Dear Mr Mfenyana



   This Memorandum serves to inform the Parliament

   that the Department of Public Works is unable

   to table the 2001 annual report as per

   provisions of section 40(1)(d) of the Public

   Finance Management Act, 1999 and Regulation

   111J of the Public Service Regulations, 1999

   (as amended).



   National Treasury Guidelines for Annual

   Reporting (December 2000) directs that the

   annual report should include audit reports. Due

   to outstanding issues, of material nature, the

   Auditor-General has not finalised the

   Department of Public Works' audit report.



   In view of the above, the tabling of the report

   during the current sitting of Parliament is not

   possible.
14 November 2001                                 Page 184 of 320


     We hope for the Parliament's indulgence in this

     regard.



     Regards,



     TAMI SOKUTU

     DIRECTOR-GENERAL



2.   The Minister of Trade and Industry:



     (a) Report and Financial Statements of the

         Department of Trade and Industry for 2000-

         2001, including the Report of the Auditor-

         General on the Financial Statements of Vote

         32 - Trade and Industry for 2000-2001.



     (b) Report and Financial Statements of the

         Competition Commission for 2000-2001,

         including the Report of the Auditor-General

         on the Financial Statements for 2000-2001

         [RP 150-2001].



3.   The Minister of Health:
14 November 2001                               Page 185 of 320


   (1) Government Notice No R.691 published in

       Government Gazette No 22495 dated 27 July

       2001, Regulations relating to additives for

       use in food in general in accordance with

       good manufacturing practice, made in terms

       of section 15(1) of the Foodstuffs,

       Cosmetics and Disinfectants Act, 1972 (Act

       No 54 of 1972).



   (2) Government Notice No R.723 published in

       Government Gazette No 22549 dated 10 August

       2001, Regulations regarding processed

       foodstuffs, made in terms of section 15(1)

       of the Foodstuffs, Cosmetics and

       Disinfectants Act, 1972 (Act No 54 of

       1972).



   (3) Government Notice No R.747 published in

       Government Gazette No 22563 dated 17 August

       2001, Amendment of regulations governing

       microbiological standards for foodstuffs

       and related matters, made in terms of

       section 15(1) of the Foodstuffs, Cosmetics
14 November 2001                               Page 186 of 320


       and Disinfectants Act, 1972 (Act No 54 of

       1972).



   (4) Government Notice No R.911 published in

       Government Gazette No 22694 dated 28

       September 2001, Regulations governing

       certain solvents in foodstuffs, made in

       terms of section 15(1) of the Foodstuffs,

       Cosmetics and Disinfectants Act, 1972 (Act

       No 54 of 1972).



   (5) Government Notice No R.765 published in

       Government Gazette No 22584 dated 24 August

       2001, Regulations relating to the conduct

       of enquiries into alleged unprofessional

       conduct, made in terms of section 61(1)(h)

       read with section 61(4) of the Health

       Professions Act, 1974 (Act No 56 of 1974).



   (6) Government Notice No R.887 published in

       Government Gazette No 22673 dated 21

       September 2001, Regulations relating to the

       suspension of practitioners, made in terms

       of section 61(1) read with section
14 November 2001                                Page 187 of 320


         15B(1)(a) of the Health Professions Act,

         1974 (Act No 56 of 1974).



National Assembly:



1.   The Speaker:



     Report of the Investigating Teams into the Arms

     Deal.



     (1) Referred to the -



         (a) Portfolio Committee on Defence for

             consideration of matters falling within

             its portfolio, and in particular

             Chapters 3-7 and 10-12, and for report

             on the relevant findings and

             recommendations;



         (b) Portfolio Committee on Finance for

             consideration of matters falling within

             its portfolio, and in particular

             Chapter 9, and for report on the

             relevant findings and recommendations;
14 November 2001                               Page 188 of 320


       (c) Portfolio Committee on Justice and

           Constitutional Development for

           consideration of matters falling within

           its portfolio, and in particular

           Chapter 13, and for report on the

           relevant findings and recommendations;



       (d) Portfolio Committee on Public Service

           and Administration for consideration of

           matters falling within its portfolio,

           and in particular Chapter 10, and for

           report on the relevant findings and

           recommendations;



       (e) Portfolio Committee on Trade and

           Industry for consideration of matters

           falling within its portfolio, and in

           particular Chapter 12, and for report

           on the relevant findings and

           recommendations;



       (f) Standing Committee on Public Accounts

           for consideration of matters within its

           area of competence and for report on
14 November 2001                               Page 189 of 320


             the relevant findings and

             recommendations; and



         (g) Joint Committee on Ethics and Members'

             Interests in so far as it relates to

             members of Parliament.



     (2) The committees to report by not later than

         6 December 2001.



     (3) The report is also forwarded to the

         Executive for such action as necessary.



     The report is also available from Parliament's

     website http://www.parliament.gov.za



COMMITTEE REPORTS:



National Assembly:



1.   Eleventh Report of the Standing Committee on

     Public Accounts, dated 31 October 2001:
14 November 2001                              Page 190 of 320


   The Standing Committee on Public Accounts,

   having heard and considered evidence on the

   Report of the Auditor-General on the financial

   statements of Vote 15 - Health for the year

   ended 31 March 2000 [RP 124-2000], and certain

   papers referred to it, reports as follows:



   A.   Financial management and PFMA



        1.   Fraud Prevention Plan



             The Committee took cognisance of the

             process to develop a Fraud Prevention

             Plan, and also of the establishment of

             a fraud hotline.



             Nevertheless, the Committee recommends

             that everything possible be done to

             implement the proposed Fraud Prevention

             Plan by 31 December 2001 and to report

             back to the Committee on the successful

             implementation of the Fraud Prevention

             Plan.
14 November 2001                              Page 191 of 320

       2.   Audit Committee



            The Committee took note that the Audit

            Committee is fully functioning in the

            Department.



            The Committee, having been made aware

            of the investigation into the UNISA

            Board, recommends that the Department

            consider the appropriateness of members

            of the Audit Committee when the

            membership of the Audit Committee is

            reviewed during 2002.



       3.   Internal audit



            The Committee noted that, after

            revision of the Internal Audit

            structure, the staff establishment of

            the Internal Audit Unit comprised of 13

            posts, of which only five are filled at

            present. Furthermore, the Committee

            also took note that the Head of the

            Internal Audit Unit of the Department
14 November 2001                               Page 192 of 320


           is involved in the Internal Audit Unit

           of the Department of Public Service and

           Administration and in a project with

           the Internal Audit Sections of all

           other government departments and

           provinces.



           It came to the attention of the

           Committee that the Internal Audit Unit

           lacked capacity and that the

           Department's major problem is the

           recruitment of staff. Whilst supporting

           the notion of best practice sharing

           between departments, the Committee

           wishes to register that this practice

           should not be allowed to impact on the

           effectiveness of the principal

           department.



           The Committee further took note of the

           Accounting Officer's concern about the

           limited financial management expertise

           available in the public sector. Given

           the implementation of the Public
14 November 2001                                  Page 193 of 320


           Finance Management Act (PFMA), this

           expertise is becoming available only at

           a premium that may not be affordable in

           terms of the public sector salary

           scales.



           The Committee recommends that the

           Accounting Officer:



           (a) Persevere with the actions aimed at

                   improved financial management,

                   specifically in bringing the

                   Internal Audit Component up to full

                   strength and ensuring continuation

                   of professional training for

                   relevant staff.



                   The Accounting Officer should seek

                   advice from the Monitoring Unit:

                   Internal Audit and Audit

                   Committees, established within the

                   Office of the Accountant-General,

                   on the adequacy of the staffing of

                   the Department's Internal Audit
14 November 2001                                   Page 194 of 320


                   Unit in terms of generally accepted

                   benchmarks, and should report to

                   the Committee in this regard by 31

                   December 2001.



            (b) Ensure that staff of the Internal

                   Audit Unit be utilised only at

                   other departments if there is no

                   lack of capacity in their own

                   auditing environment, both in

                   respect of auditing and

                   supervision.



       4.   Asset management



            After considering evidence presented by

            the Department, the Committee took

            cognisance of the fact that the

            National Treasury is reviewing the

            current systems to address the needs of

            departments.



            The Committee therefore recommends that

            the National Treasury increase
14 November 2001                                Page 195 of 320


            resources to speed up the process and

            that the Department of Health implement

            interim measures to improve the other

            control measures.



   B.   Sarafina II



        The issue has taken a long time to be

        satisfactorily resolved - it started in

        1995. However, it is the Committee's view

        that appropriate measures should be taken

        to bring this issue to a close.



        After giving due consideration to all the

        information on the matter regarding the

        unauthorised expenditure emanating from the

        Sarafina II saga, as well as considering a

        comprehensive report from the Accounting

        Officer, as requested during the hearing of

        29 August 2001, and consulting with the

        Parliamentary Law Advisers, the Committee

        wish to note the following:
14 November 2001                               Page 196 of 320


       1.   From the unauthorised amount of R10 519

            202,30 that was paid, an amount of R2

            211 138,79 was recovered and a further

            amount of R8 308 063,51 remains

            outstanding.



       2.   As some form of services were rendered,

            it is important to determine the

            approximate amount which should be

            regarded as either fruitless or

            wasteful expenditure and which has to

            be recovered.



       3.   The findings of all the investigations

            indicate a serious lack of financial

            discipline and control, amounting to

            negligence, on the part of the two

            individuals concerned.



       4.   Action could have been taken by the

            Accounting Officer to prevent, or at

            least reduce, the extent of the

            unauthorised expenditure.
14 November 2001                              Page 197 of 320


       5.   Until the date of adoption of this

            Report, an amount of R576 595,59 has

            already been spent on legal costs in an

            attempt to recover the loss suffered by

            the State.



       6.   Work conducted by investigating

            agencies such as the Public Protector,

            the KPMG Forensic Auditors and the

            Special Investigating Unit was of great

            help in identifying serious

            irregularities and unauthorised

            expenditure.



       7.   Sufficient measures and actions were

            not taken by the Department to recover

            the money from the two individuals

            concerned.



       8.   Directors-General are appointed as

            accounting officers, and as such have a

            very specific and direct responsibility

            to act as custodian of tax-payers'

            money.
14 November 2001                                Page 198 of 320


       9.   Parliament is tasked with the

            responsibility to authorise

            unauthorised expenditure if sufficient

            grounds exist and evidence indicates

            that the circumstances which gave rise

            to the unauthorised expenditure, were

            both urgent and unavoidable.



       10. The asset base of those responsible for

            the expenditure might be insufficient

            to recover the full amount lost.



       11. In the opinion of the Parliamentary Law

            Advisers, grounds exist, on the merits,

            to obtain a judgement against the

            individuals responsible for the

            unauthorised expenditure.



       It is the Committee's firm belief that

       Parliament does not only have a mandate to

       oversee financial management compliance,

       but must be seen to be guarding the best

       interest of tax-payers and the most
14 November 2001                               Page 199 of 320


       effective and efficient use of limited

       state resources.



       The Committee therefore recommends that:



       (a) The Department immediately proceed with

           legal steps with the objective of

           securing judgement against the

           individuals concerned.



       (b) The type of judgement provide the State

           with an extended period of right to

           recover the money from the individuals

           concerned, as was the case with the

           GCIS recently.



       (c) The State attorneys endavour to secure

           a cost judgement.



       (d) The Department proceed with the above

           action within the shortest possible

           timeframe,and report back to the

           Committee by notlater than the end of

           February 2002.
14 November 2001                                 Page 200 of 320

   C.   Protein Energy Malnutrition Scheme



        The Department has been involved in various

        projects to alleviate malnutrition and

        improve nutrition among South African

        children since 1991. The Auditor-General

        has been reporting on weaknesses in the

        programmes since 1994. Problems identified

        included the following:



        1.   A lack of supporting vouchers.



        2.   Inadequate monitoring procedures.



        3.   Failure to comply with standards

             prescribed by the Department.



        On 1 August 1995 the President appointed a

        Commission of Inquiry into the Protein

        Energy Malnutrition Scheme. The Commission

        consisted of three persons and was

        appointed specifically to look into the

        allocation of contracts, expenditure on

        contracts and the supervision of the
14 November 2001                               Page 201 of 320


       Protein Energy Malnutrition and other

       related schemes. The Committee is, however,

       disturbed about the costs incurred in

       respect of the Commission that amounted to

       R9 156 377 as at 31 March 2000, as well as

       the failure of the Department's adherence

       to the recommendations of the Commission.



       Having received the "Summary of the report

       by the Commission of Inquiry into the

       Protein Energy Malnutrition Scheme and

       other Nutrition Programmes and Feeding

       Schemes administered by the National

       Department of Health", and given its

       awareness of problems experienced currently

       with the implementation of nutrition

       schemes, the Committee recommends that it

       be informed about the implementation of the

       recommendations made by the Commission with

       regard to:



       (a) The efficient handling of all matters

           of fraud or mismanagement in each

           province.
14 November 2001                                 Page 202 of 320


         (b) The blacklisting of individuals who

             were incriminated in the programmes and

             a register to be kept preventing them

             from conducting business with any

             programme in any province.



         (c) Programmes on strengthening human and

             institutional capacity to reduce the

             unacceptably high levels of childhood

             malnutrition in South Africa.



         The Committee requests a report on these

         matters by the end of January 2002.



     Report to be considered.



2.   Twelfth Report of the Standing Committee on

     Public Accounts, dated 31 October 2001:



     The Standing Committee on Public Accounts,

     having heard and considered evidence on the

     Reports of the Auditor-General on the financial

     statements of Vote 37 - Welfare for the year

     ended 31 March 1999 [RP 161-99] and Vote 36 -
14 November 2001                                Page 203 of 320


   Welfare for the year ended 31 March 2000 [RP

   145-2000], and certain papers referred to it,

   reports as follows:



   A.   Unauthorised expenditure



        1.   1998-99 financial year, R173 551,50



             Unauthorised expenditure amounting to

             R173 551,50 was incurred during the

             1998-99 financial year, and comprises

             the following:



             (a) An amount of R135 859,50 was paid

                   during August 1998 to a company for

                   a radio advertising campaign to

                   introduce the new Child Support

                   Grant without adhering to tender

                   procedures.



             (b) An amount of R37 692 was paid for

                   the extension of the contract,

                   without prior approval from the

                   State Tender Board, for a
14 November 2001                                   Page 204 of 320


                   consultant to assist the Department

                   with the re-registration and clean-

                   up process with regard to the

                   Social Security function.



       2.   1999-2000 financial year, R223 969



            Unauthorised expenditure totaling R223

            969 was incurred and comprises the

            following:



            (a) An amount of R187 375 was paid from

                   donor funding in respect of

                   contracts concluded with

                   individuals from non-governmental

                   organisations, who were involved in

                   developing quality assurance pilot

                   projects within residential care

                   facilities during the period

                   January to December 1999. Proper

                   tender procedures had not been

                   followed and the State Tender Board

                   declined a request for ex post

                   facto approval.
14 November 2001                                Page 205 of 320


           (b) An amount of R36 594 was paid for

                   catering services at the National

                   Conference on Victim Empowerment.

                   Although the State Tender Board

                   granted ex post facto approval for

                   the expenditure, proper

                   departmental procedures had not

                   been followed.



           Although the Committee is satisfied

           with the explanations provided by the

           Accounting Officer regarding each

           instance of unauthorised expenditure

           reported and the efforts of the

           Department to train staff to deal with

           matters according to the correct

           procurement procedures, the Committee

           express its dissatisfaction at the

           Department's disregard for State Tender

           Board directives. It is unacceptable

           that rules and regulations are

           contravened, even in cases where the

           projects achieve a desirable objective.
14 November 2001                              Page 206 of 320


            In expressing the above sentiments, the

            Committee notes that with regard to the

            unauthorised expenditure for the years

            mentioned, the following issues need to

            be borne in mind:



            *Technical non-compliance.



            *Services/goods were rendered/received.



            *Value for money was received.



            *The State suffered no loss.



            The Committee therefore recommends that

            the unauthorised expenditure for the

            1998-99 financial year (R173 551,50)

            and for the 1999-2000 financial year

            (R223 969) be authorised by Parliament.



   B.   Financial management



        The Committee wishes to commend the

        Department on the drastic and dramatic
14 November 2001                               Page 207 of 320


       improvement in the general and financial

       management of the Department.



       Nevertheless, the Committee wishes to

       report on the following matters dealt with

       during the hearing, which the Accounting

       Officer should attend to:



       1.   Fraud Prevention Plan



            The Committee took note that the policy

            document was submitted to the Audit

            Committee during May 2001 and that the

            Department is awaiting their comment.



            It is recommended that the Department

            report back to the Committee by 31

            December 2001 on comments by the Audit

            Committee and implementation of the

            Fraud Prevention Plan.



       2.   Risk assessment
14 November 2001                                Page 208 of 320


            The Committee took note that

            consultants were contracted during

            September 2000, as part of the existing

            Financial Management Expert Contract,

            to conduct a risk assessment for the

            Department.



            The Committee recommends that a

            comprehensive report be submitted to it

            by 31 December 2001 on the outcomes of

            the risk assessment and the measures

            implemented.



       3.   Financial Management Expert Contract



            The Committee is encouraged by the

            establishment of the Steering Committee

            to oversee the contract, and by the

            fact that the consultants have to

            report every six weeks on progress

            made. The Committee also noted the

            measures already implemented on

            national as well as provincial level on

            recommendations by the consultants.
14 November 2001                                Page 209 of 320


            However, the Committee recommends that

            the Accounting Officer ensure that:



            (a) The contract be revised according

                   to the requirements of the PFMA.



            (b) The requirements regarding the

                   skills transfer are adhered to.



            (c) The matter regarding the capacity

                   constraints in the provinces, as a

                   matter of urgency, be addressed to

                   prevent the undermining of the

                   effectiveness of the contract.



            (d) The process and progress made by

                   the consultants in the Western Cape

                   be properly monitored and that the

                   norms and standards, as set by the

                   national department, be adhered to.



   C.   Asset management
14 November 2001                               Page 210 of 320


       The Committee took note that the Department

       only implemented the LOGIS system during

       May 2000, and is in the process of

       finalising specification for the

       appointment of a service provider to number

       all individual assets of the Department

       with item control numbers. The Committee

       would like to bring to the attention of the

       Accounting Officer that, since the

       implementation of the PFMA, the

       responsibility, should there be any

       deficits or surplus stock, is that of the

       Accounting Officer.



       The Committee therefore recommends that:



       1.   The Accounting Officer adhere to

            section 38(1)(d) of the PFMA and

            Treasury Regulation 10.1.



       2.   A comprehensive report be submitted to

            the Committee by the end of the 2001-02

            financial year on the progress made
14 November 2001                                Page 211 of 320


             with regard to the safeguarding of all

             departmental assets.



   D.   Unspent funds



        With regard to the unspent funds, the

        Committee notes the following:



        1.   During the 1998-99 financial year, the

             overall underspending in the Department

             was 78,5% and underspending regarding

             poverty relief funds, was 97%.



        2.   During the 1999-2000 financial year,

             the overall underspending in the

             Department was 24,1% and underspending

             regarding poverty relief funds, was

             15,3%.



        Having noted this, the Committee is

        acknowledging the improvement in the

        ability of the Department to spend the

        budgeted amount in the financial year.

        However, the Committee remains concerned
14 November 2001                               Page 212 of 320


       whether the money actually reaches the

       intended beneficiaries and that value for

       money is received.



       The Committee further took note that the

       Accounting Officer has recognised that it

       is critical to exercise appropriate control

       over these payments and that such control

       should not be obviated by the autonomy of

       the receiving institutions.



       The Committee therefore recommends that:



       (a) The need for training in financial

           management and project management with

           communities be addressed as a matter of

           urgency.



       (b) The envisaged monitoring system be put

           in place and that the process of

           evaluation include mechanisms to assess

           whether value for money is received

           from the funds made available for

           poverty relief.
14 November 2001                                 Page 213 of 320


          (c) A comprehensive report be submitted to

              the Committee by the end of the 2001-02

              financial year on the matters raised in

              the above paragraphs.



     Report to be considered.



3.   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Home

     Affairs on Illegal Zimbabwean farm labour in

     Soutpansberg, dated 13 November 2001:



     1.   A delegation of the Committee undertook an

          oversight visit to the Soutpansberg

          agricultural area on Monday, 5 November

          2001. The delegation, under the leadership

          of Mr A Mokoena (ANC), included Chief K W

          Morwamoche (ANC), Mr W M Skhosana (ANC), Mr

          M M Chikane (ANC), Mr G A J Grobler (DP),

          Prince N E Zulu (IFP) and Mr J Vermeulen

          (Committee Secretary).



     2.   The aim of the visit was to get a better

          understanding, with a view to offer

          possible solutions to the problem of
14 November 2001                                Page 214 of 320


        illegal Zimbabwean labourers working on

        farms in the area between the Limpopo River

        and the Soutpansberg.



   3.   On Monday, 5 November, the delegation met

        with the following members of the

        Soutpansberg District Agricultural Union:

        Mr Joubert, Mr Klaf, Mr Langley, Mr

        Meiring, Mr Combrink, Mr Vos and Mr

        Hoffman. Mr M V Mabunda: Regional

        Representative: Home Affairs in the

        Northern Province, chaired the meeting.



   4.   The delegation had very open and fruitful

        discussions with the farmers, who handed

        our delegation a memorandum. The main

        points were:



        (a) The farmers had the impression that

            there was an implicit agreement between

            the government and the Soutpansberg

            District Agricultural Union to allow

            Zimbabwean workers in a controlled way

            to work on farms in the area, because
14 November 2001                             Page 215 of 320


           of the fact that, owing to the

           demographics of the population in the

           area, there are no South Africans to

           work on the farms.



       (b) At the end of 1999, a moratorium was

           placed on the renewal and granting of

           permits to Zimbabwean labourers. This

           signalled the start of problems between

           the farmers and the government.



       (c) The assumption by the Department of

           Labour that there are enough local

           people who would like to work on the

           farms, has never been tested in

           practice.



       (d) Most attempts by farmers to secure

           local labour was costly and

           unsuccessful. Local labour should be

           attainable and sustainable, and farmers

           must be able to count on them. Until

           now, this has not been the case, as

           especially local women traditionally
14 November 2001                                Page 216 of 320


            work their own crops in respect of

            subsistence farming. The women also

            find it difficult to be away from home

            for long periods of time, as they must

            raise their children.



        (e) The Soutpansberg District Agricultural

            Union recorded its willingness to form

            part of a committee to investigate real

            solutions to the problems.



   5.   The Committee recommends that a task team

        comprising organised agriculture, the

        Department of Labour, the Department of

        Home Affairs, the Security Forces,

        organised labour, local municipalities,

        district councils and the Provincial

        Government be established to find common

        solutions to farm labour crises in the area

        north of the Soutpansberg and south of the

        Zimbabwe border.



   6.   The Committee will exercise oversight over

        the entire process.
14 November 2001                                   Page 217 of 320


     Report to be considered.



4.   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Education

     on Study Tour to Cuba, dated 6 November 2001:



     A.   Introduction



          A delegation of the Portfolio Committee on

          Education undertook a study tour to Cuba

          from 6 to 16 July 2001, with the following

          mandate:



          1.   Objectives of tour



               In a meeting on 3 April 2001, the

               Committee unanimously agreed that a

               multiparty delegation undertake a study

               visit to Cuba, with the following

               objectives:



               (a) To investigate factors that allow

                     the successful implementation of

                     already developed education

                     policies in manners that ensure
14 November 2001                                   Page 218 of 320


                   success at institutions on the

                   ground and later in the workplace

                   and in the country's economy.



            (b) To identify manners in which the

                   two countries can overcome the

                   challenges that globalisation

                   brings to their common ideological

                   and economic goals.



            The visit to Cuba was not only one that

            intended to observe and learn from

            one's hosts, but also to engage with

            them about problems faced during the

            incredibly difficult and complex phases

            of implementing transformative

            policies.



       2.   Specific interest



            As far as the development of

            implementable transformative policies

            is concerned, Cuba stands out above the

            rest of the world. It has thus been
14 November 2001                               Page 219 of 320


           earmarked by the Committee as the best

           example of how well implemented

           transformative education policies can

           ensure that a poor or developing

           country can make an educational,

           technological and scientific impact

           that places it on an equal or, in some

           respects, higher level than most

           advanced countries of the world,

           despite the problems that globalisation

           may pose to it.



           The Committee was aware that such a

           visit would not only be in line with

           the existing "Agreement of Educational

           Collaboration between the Ministries of

           Education", signed in Havana on 8 April

           1997, but intended to strengthen that

           bilateral link with our Cuban

           counterparts. Again, the Committee

           needed to observe what it is that

           enables higher participation rates for

           all learners in Cuba and hasten to make

           our Adult Basic Education, Early
14 November 2001                                Page 220 of 320


            Childhood and literacy initiatives a

            reality in South Africa through serious

            scrutiny of its implementation.



            The agreements signed after the first

            democratic election in 1994 included:



            (a) The Declaration of Intent on Co-

                   operation in Health: 463 medical

                   doctors from Cuba have since been

                   assigned to work in the most rural

                   and previously unserviced areas.

                   About 185 students are currently

                   studying in Cuba.



            (b) An announcement made by the

                   Minister of Education in April

                   2001, that Cuba would be sending

                   their teachers to South Africa to

                   help the country in the areas of

                   mathematics, science and

                   technology.



       3.   Delegation
14 November 2001                              Page 221 of 320


           The multiparty delegation, under the

           leadership of the Chairperson, Prof S M

           Mayatula (ANC), included Ms P K

           Mothoagae (ANC), Mr S B Ntuli (ANC), Ms

           D G Nhlengethwa (ANC), Mr A M

           Mpontshane (IFP), Mr R S Ntuli (DP) and

           Ms N C Manjezi (Committee Secretary).



           An attempt was made to obtain a valued

           balanced view, with inputs from various

           sources, like the Minister of

           Education, Minister of Higher

           Education, Minister of Foreign

           Relations, senior officials from the

           university sector, executive

           management, directors in various

           institutions of higher learning and

           teachers.



           On arrival on 7 July 2001 at Jose Marti

           International Airport in Havana, the

           delegation was warmly welcomed by Ms A

           Hanslop (First Secretary) and Ms P
14 November 2001                              Page 222 of 320


            Rapudi (Administrative Attaché) from

            the South African Embassy.



   B.   Education system in Cuba



        The key element identified by our

        "Tirisano" policy document is the

        eradication of illiteracy. The success of

        Cuba is lauded worldwide as an incredible

        phenomenon - the education system forms the

        foundation on which its success in science,

        technology and medical education is based.

        After its revolution, 50% of Cuba's

        children did not attend school; 72% of the

        13- to 19-year-olds did not reach

        intermediate levels of schooling, and there

        were more than one million people who were

        illiterate, In the mid-1990s there were 241

        000 illiterates out of a population of 11

        million.



        Right through all phases of its education

        system, Cuba has placed a high value on

        relating study and work. In a classically
14 November 2001                             Page 223 of 320


       Marxist formulation of praxis, education

       emphasises the holistic development of the

       "new human being" to be achieved by

       relating study and work through lifelong

       education programmes that involve students,

       youth in working and workers in study and

       reflection.



       Cuba's education system has goals directly

       related to the economic development of the

       nation. The education system was called

       upon to prepare a technically proficient

       population capable of drastically altering

       the traditionally hostile attitudes toward

       science, technology and modern agricultural

       methods. They have successfully implemented

       a policy to ensure that school management

       is guided by the principle that education

       is everybody's responsibility, and

       participation is an important means of

       addressing problems of the school. They

       strongly believe in their slogans "Read and

       write to defend the revolution" and "We
14 November 2001                              Page 224 of 320

       won't tell you to believe but we will tell

       you to learn".



       Although Cuba is one of the poorest

       countries in Latin-America, it is

       accredited for its high literacy around the

       world. Despite crippling trade embargoes

       imposed by the USA, the country has managed

       to keep the illiteracy rate at very low

       levels.



       Students receive education, food, learner

       support materials, clothing and transport

       free of charge. At university level

       students receive an additional allowance

       for personal expenditure.



       The results of mathematics and science of

       the latest UNESCO comparison of mathematics

       and language test scores in Latin-America

       found Cuba's third grades to have an

       average of 83,1% in respect of mathematics

       and 87,4% in respect of the language

       examinations, compared with the next
14 November 2001                               Page 225 of 320


       highest national scores (Argentina), at

       47,3% and 60,7 in respect of the same

       examinations, respectively. Central to the

       country's aim to ensure the African

       Renaissance is policy guidelines aimed at

       improving achievements at schools and

       universities in mathematics, science and

       technology.



       Science and technology are highly prized in

       Cuba today. Due to its high quality of

       medical services, neighbouring countries

       (like the Dominican Republic) are

       travelling to Cuba for medical treatment or

       surgery. This also bears testament to the

       achievement of its higher education sector.



       University majors in the sciences,

       including the health sciences, require the

       most competitive examination scores for

       entering new students. This is consistent

       with aims set out in South African

       education legislation and policies. The

       importance of mathematics teaching as a
14 November 2001                                Page 226 of 320


        prerequisite to the advanced study of

        science and technology cannot be overstated

        as forming the backbone of Cuba's excellent

        record in the medical, veterinary and

        pharmaceutical fields.



   C.   Visit to Museum of Literacy Campaign -

        official view by Professor of History, Prof

        L Campos



        Despite doubts cast by numerous

        personalities and organisations abroad, the

        Revolutionary Government embarked on

        campaigns to eradicate illiteracy in one

        year: From January to December 1961. In

        January 1961, a call was made to the young

        population and workers to learn to read and

        write.



        When Pres Fidel Castro made his call in the

        UN headquarters, they were prepared to

        eradicate illiteracy. Fidel Castro wrote a

        manifesto, specifying all the programmes

        and problems in education, including
14 November 2001                               Page 227 of 320


       housing and unemployment, as a great number

       of children did not attend school. Private

       teaching and education was made compulsory

       for all.



       When the campaign ended on 22 December

       1961, they called for education for workers

       in Cuba.



       Of a population of seven million,

       approximately 100 000 teachers, the

       youngest seven years old, volunteered to go

       to all corners of the island to teach

       people to read and write as most

       illiterates were from the rural areas. The

       basic principle was to be a volunteer, to

       teach or to learn voluntarily, and

       everything was done for free. Most teachers

       had to be trained, because the majority of

       them were not really teachers. Basic

       education was up to Grade 9.



       There were counter-revolutionary forces,

       and some teachers were killed, but this did
14 November 2001                               Page 228 of 320


       not deter the Cubans, and campaigns

       continued as planned.



       The voluntary teachers were organised in

       detachments, which later became known as

       the "Conrado Bernitez" Brigades, in honour

       of the youngest teacher (a seven-year-old),

       who had been assassinated by counter-

       revolutionary bandits. These brigades were

       with another 120 000 ordinary Cubans and 12

       700 young workers, who also volunteered to

       go and teach - an educational force that

       was trained and pedagogically supervised by

       close to 35 000 certified teachers. This

       singular effort mobilised nearly 300 000

       people.



       The museum is the largest in Cuba. Today,

       they are celebrating 40 years of country

       literacy. If a person does not have

       Computer Sscience, then according to Pres

       Fidel Castro he or she is illiterate.
14 November 2001                             Page 229 of 320


       The mission of the voluntary teachers

       demanded a great deal of understanding,

       sacrifice, will-power and resistance, both

       from young educators and from their

       parents. Many of the adolescents who took

       part in the campaigning had never been away

       from their homes. Now they found themselves

       living in remote rural areas, having to

       spend the whole year among people they did

       not know and who generally had lifestyles

       and customs different from theirs. They had

       to share the poverty in which many of their

       hosts lived, and in some cases helped them,

       after class, with the daily work.



       Adults provided labour during the day and

       went to school in the evening. Children

       attended during the day.



       Although there was a huge reaction from

       people joining the campaign, unions played

       a very vital role.
14 November 2001                               Page 230 of 320


       Today, one per cent of illiterate people in

       Cuba are those who did not learn during the

       campaign.



       They have educational programmes broadcast

       on television - Cuban History, Cuban

       Geography, Science, Spanish, etc, and

       children are always encouraged to watch

       these exciting programmes.



       Support



       During the year of the campaign, there was

       solidarity and great help from the Chinese

       and German governments, and the Cuban

       people gave huge support. The German

       government donated spectacles to those with

       eye problems, and those needing health care

       were identified. The Chinese government

       contributed paraffin lamps for evening

       classes, as there was no electricity then.

       They also received support from the Balkan

       States (human and material resources). This

       showed that Cuba was not alone.
14 November 2001                               Page 231 of 320


       They also received students from different

       countries like Spain, France and Russia, to

       teach in Cuba, although Cuba was regarded

       as a socialist country.



       Tour around museum



       At the main entrance there is a big picture

       of Commander-in-Chief Fidel Castro, taken

       in 1960 at the headquarters of the UN. The

       delegation also saw documents, letters and

       personal belongings of the teachers who

       were participants during the campaign

       (letters are kept for records and research

       to help children who want to be teachers);

       a photo, identity document and a shirt of

       the seven-year-old assassinated during the

       campaign; letters which were sent to Pres

       Fidel Castro, literature (samples of

       learner curricula, guides and letters to

       the President, thanking him for the

       opportunity to read and write).
14 November 2001                                Page 232 of 320

   D.   Visit to School for Disabled Children,

        "Abel Santamaria" - official view by

        Director of School, Ms L D Carballo

        Gonzalez



        There are 427 special schools in Cuba, 14

        schools for deaf children, schools for

        those with impaired hearing, schools for

        retarded children and one school for

        handicapped children. All these schools are

        transit schools, except the one for

        retarded children. This was the only school

        until 1990, and at present there are 14

        more of them in different provinces.



        The school is a brick structure, with 69

        teachers and 220 students. Before the

        revolution, they had to admit these

        disabled students up to the age of 33

        years, but now they have a limited average

        of 13 years of age. All teachers are

        college graduates, and eight of them have

        Masters Degrees in Education. They are all

        trained in the teaching methods they should
14 November 2001                             Page 233 of 320


       use. Teachers in the public schools are not

       trained for special education.



       The basic aim of the school is to give

       diagnostic therapy in preparation for entry

       in ordinary schools. Special schools are

       aimed to train teachers to achieve social

       integration for disabled people. Although

       the integration theory is handled

       worldwide, children at these schools need

       specialised help. These schools need an

       integral teacher who can use sign language

       and apply psychology when encountering

       behavioural problems.



       The Department of Health's Diagnosis Team

       is composed of dieticians, psychologists,

       physicians assessing learners for albinism

       and determining extent of deafness,

       blindness, physical disability and make

       recommendations.



       They diagnose every child's achievements,

       the community in which the child lives, the
14 November 2001                               Page 234 of 320


       families from which the child comes, and

       family support for the development of their

       children. Psychologists and language

       therapists do all the work, as well as

       family doctors trained in that field.



       In the school they diagnose the learning

       process and problems during the learning

       process, as the parents should know the

       characteristics of their children's

       disabilities. If the retardedness is

       severe, they receive family protection and

       social security.



       There is great support from parents in this

       process - they teach them to learn and

       communicate with them in their communities.

       They also communicate with hospitals to

       educate parents and to give proper care for

       those at home unable to attend school.



       Once they complete special education, they

       are transferred to ordinary schools, but

       this depends on the nature of the
14 November 2001                               Page 235 of 320


       disability, and some are kept back until

       ready for university. They can go to

       secondary schools and universities and

       pursue technical careers. At present, five

       of their students are studying at Havana

       University, pursuing a career in

       psychology.



       Learner material used to be bought overseas

       and was very expensive, but now Cuba is

       producing them locally at a cheaper price.

       Students are given these educational

       learning materials free of charge at all

       levels, including special schools. Computer

       literacy is a high priority, as they are

       given computer lessons.



       Although they have difficulty in teaching

       blind and deaf students, they conduct

       special physical rehabilitation, language

       therapy, technological and physical

       programmes as well as psychological

       treatment. Most of them are involved in
14 November 2001                                Page 236 of 320


        sport like swimming, chess and golf for the

        blind.



        In Cuba, all the children have the right to

        education, and all parents want their

        children to be educated. It is against the

        law not to send children with special needs

        to school. Parents are fined if found

        guilty by the Council of Education of the

        People's Power or the Police.



        Tour around school



        The delegation was given an opportunity to

        tour the school to see the classrooms for

        blind children, where there are brail

        material manufactured in Cuba.



   E.   Meeting with Commission on Education,

        Science and Culture (or People's Power

        National Assembly) - official view by

        Chairperson of Commission, Hon L C Fabelo
14 November 2001                               Page 237 of 320


       The People's Power National Assembly is the

       supreme body of State power, and it

       embodies and expresses the sovereign will

       of the people at large. It is the only body

       with constitutional and legislative powers

       in the Republic. The unicameral Parliament

       of Cuba is composed of 601 deputies,

       directly elected for a term of five years.



       Among its powers is the power to pass

       partial amendments to the Constitution of

       the Republic; pass, change or repeal laws;

       revoke Decree Laws that have been passed by

       the Council of State; adopt national

       economic and social development plans and

       the State budget; declare a state of war in

       case of military aggression and approve

       peace treaties; appoint the Council of

       Ministers; elect the Chief Justice and

       Deputy Chief Justices and other Justices of

       the People's Supreme Court and the

       Attorneys-General of the Republic.
14 November 2001                               Page 238 of 320

       Workings commissions of People's Power

       National Assembly



       The National Assembly creates working

       commissions that work all year round and

       are made up of deputies and whose function

       is to assist it with the supervision of

       State and government bodies; with the

       writing of draft law agreements and with

       taking decisions on the drafts that are put

       for their consideration, as well as doing

       the studies they are commissioned to

       undertake.



       Furthermore, the Assembly can create

       temporary commissions, taking into account

       the specific interests in various spheres

       of the country's social and economic life.



       The Commission on Education, Science and

       Culture is constituted by education, arts,

       science and culture, and a range of

       professors (teachers) are also represented

       in the Commission. It sits twice a year and
14 November 2001                              Page 239 of 320


       plays a vital role in respect of the

       functions of the Assembly. Every year, this

       Commission plans activities to fulfil its

       objectives; suggests budgets and implements

       its work and finances; looks at legislation

       and take decisions on all bodies of the old

       Commission. They also invite the Ministers

       of Economic Planning and Finance to look at

       the impact of the Budget on the National

       Assembly.



       They also have public hearings and involve

       different sectors to discuss issues and to

       carry out tasks and define legislation.



       Cubans do not claim to have achieved a

       level of democratic development that cannot

       be surpassed. On the contrary, various

       important innovations have been introduced

       to the system, to its methods and

       mechanisms, and they are making constant

       efforts to improve it. Achieving full, true

       and systematic participation by the people

       in the management and control of society -
14 November 2001                               Page 240 of 320


       which is the essence of democracy - is a

       goal which should be strived for

       incessantly.



       Status of Commission



       The Deputies and members of the Commission

       are elected candidates who must obtain more

       than 50% of the valid votes. At present

       there are 601 deputies elected in their

       territories. The National Assembly elects

       31 Council of State members and the

       Presidency of the Assembly. After the

       election, they propose the committees, who

       all consist of elected deputies (in the

       South African context, Members of

       Parliament), and the committees elect

       specialists to conduct the work.



       Candidacy Commission



       As appointed at national, provincial and

       municipal level, the Candidacy Commission

       have the function of preparing and
14 November 2001                              Page 241 of 320


       presenting the draft of candidates for

       delegates to the provincial assemblies and

       for deputies to the National Assembly, as

       well as those who will hold posts they are

       elected for by provincial and municipal

       assemblies.



       In all cases, the commissions are made up

       of representatives from social

       organisations - workers, peasants,

       students, women's organisations - and they

       are appointed by these organiaations at the

       request of the relevant election

       commissions. The representative of the

       National Trade Union of Cuba always chairs

       them.



       Relationship of Commission with Ministry of

       Education



       The Ministry of Education and Ministry of

       Higher Education are part of the government

       of the Republic of Cuba. Between the

       sessions, the Council of State approves the
14 November 2001                            Page 242 of 320


       preliminary laws. The Council of State and

       the People's Power National Assembly agree

       to the education laws. Technical work is

       done by the Commission or Ministry and

       passed by the National Assembly.



       All education levels are financed by the

       State. Higher education conducts research

       activities in State companies, and

       companies finance those activities. Human

       Resources have the power to create a great

       labour force in the frontier.



       National budget



       Because of the economic situation in Cuba,

       22% to 25% is allocated to education. 40%

       of the budget is allocated to senior high

       school and the rest to technical and higher

       education.



       Teacher-Pupil ratio
14 November 2001                               Page 243 of 320


       At present the teacher-pupil ratio is 29:1;

       the Ministry of Education hopes to have

       20:1 and in high school less than 30:1 per

       classroom. In the rural areas there are

       3 000 schools with only 50 students each

       and 38 schools with one student and one

       teacher each. They provide the classroom,

       blackboard and teacher in all rural areas.



       Official view by Ms M Josefa Mederos and Mr

       P Berguez



       All provinces have deputies to the

       committees to control the duties under

       their power. They visit different research

       institutions and cultural centres and

       exchange workers in these centres; an

       entire population is taken care of by these

       centres. They exchange deputies in those

       territories so that they can be aware of

       the interests of the population.



       Once a year, they visit the most remote

       areas, and problems in those areas are
14 November 2001                              Page 244 of 320


       discussed with the Ministries. They also

       visit home-based schooling, where you find

       one teacher and one student. These visits

       are regarded as important. Education

       reaches every place in the country, and

       this work has been done in Cuba for 40

       years.



       Official view by Ms M Torres



       The work of the Commission is supervised at

       all times, taking care of all activities at

       grassroots and municipal level. Main

       activities include popular control, and to

       know the opinion of the citizens relating

       to education, sport and culture.



       They also visit the different councils, and

       control strategic objectives of the city,

       taking care of all the activities in

       education, culture and sport - researchers

       are attached to those activities. Timeous

       feedback is received from the population on

       those activities.
14 November 2001                                Page 245 of 320

   F.   Visit to "Republic of Angola" Senior High

        School - official view by Director, Mr J R

        Cucelo



        This is a boarding school which was

        officially opened in 1997 and offers Grade

        10 to 12. There are 574 students and 32

        teachers. More than 97% of the students

        come from the municipality in Havana, with

        one student from Angola. The students work

        in brigades, and education is based on

        equity and "revolutionary". The school

        management has rules and students keep a

        schedule in respect of their work at all

        times.



        Sport and cultural programmes are included

        in their curriculum. They also have labour

        training programmes, and they link them

        with agricultural activities, depending on

        the potential, which is linked to the

        fieldwork.
14 November 2001                               Page 246 of 320


       Teaching the students Cuban history and

       other political events are regarded as very

       important in order to support their

       knowledge nationally and internationally.



       Streams of subjects offered



       They have a unique education system -

       General Science with three Departments:

       Department of Humanities - Ideology,

       Marxism and Socialism; Department of Exact

       Science - History, Biology and Geography;

       Department of Natural Sciences -

       Mathematics, Physics and Biology. The

       curriculum is divided into these three main

       streams.



       Board of Directors



       Seven teachers and the Parents Board, which

       participates in all school activities,

       represent the Board of Directors. They meet

       monthly to debate/discuss the interests and
14 November 2001                              Page 247 of 320


       problems of the school and propose methods

       of solving the problems.



       There are no cases of severe illnesses

       (like HIV/AIDS) among the student

       population. There are no dropouts; they

       work with them to be at the school, not to

       drop out.



       Youth Brigade



       Learners work during school holidays and

       are given an incentive to do that. The

       school has a farm attached to it for food

       production, and access is given to

       neighbouring schools and co-operatives.



       As their education system is based on "work

       and study", students work during the school

       holidays in the nearest agricultural areas

       in different entities that serve the

       consumption of the school. They are paid

       for work they do during their school

       holidays. The entire production comes to
14 November 2001                            Page 248 of 320


       the school, none is sent to the market. If

       there is over-supply, they give it to the

       nearby schools.



       The Young Communist League agreed to this

       idea.



       System of examination



       They plan their system of examination, and

       it depends on the programme given to each

       subject. All subjects are divided into two

       semesters. In the semesters, they take

       partial control of examination and evaluate

       students continuously.



       For entry at university, each student must

       pass an aptitude test, depending on the

       specialty he or she selects. Universities

       offer a number of studies due according to

       their capacity. Mathematics, Spanish and

       History are compulsory.
14 November 2001                               Page 249 of 320

       Role of student representative on

       management of school



       The student representatives represent the

       students' needs, problems, political and

       cultural activities to the management board

       of the school.



       They also represent students at grassroots,

       municipal and provincial level. They have

       the voice and vote in the National Assembly

       of Students.



       In the Municipal Assembly, there is a

       committee that directly deals with all the

       schools' problems. This committee is in

       charge of visiting schools, making

       suggestions to teachers and presenting

       reports to the municipality.



       Failure rate
14 November 2001                                Page 250 of 320


        The failure rate is minimal in Grade 12,

        and if they fail, they can repeat their

        grades in the same school.



   G.   Visit to Nursery School "Semillitas del

        2000" - official view by Director, Mrs M C

        C Tabares and Subdirector, Mr T D Denis



        On arrival, the three-year-old drum

        majorettes warmly welcomed the delegation.



        This municipality nursery school is a

        formal centre and has 14 teachers and 115

        children, ranging from less than one to

        four years old.



        The highly secured double-storey

        infrastructure used to be a house, and it

        was converted to a nursery school.



        They are taken care of by well-trained

        workers and college graduates. They have

        two family doctors and two nurses who are

        at all times present at the nursery school
14 November 2001                              Page 251 of 320


        and diagnose any illness. If a child is

        sick, he or she is taken to hospital for

        proper treatment.



        Formal schooling starts when a child is

        five years old. Those children who are not

        taken care of in the nursery are looked

        after in their homes.



        It operates from Monday to Friday, from

        06:00 to 18:00. They have programmes and

        activities on a daily basis, and parents

        access these programmes at any given time.

        As the child grows older, the activities

        become more complex. The minimum class

        group is 24 (for one-year-olds), and the

        largest group is 36.



        The relationship between parents, families

        and the nursery management is good.



   H.   Visit to Nursery School of Jesus Menendez

        Co-operatives - official view by pre-school

        teacher, Ms O Miranda
14 November 2001                             Page 252 of 320


       This is an informal centre, and was donated

       by a farmer.



       Ms Olga Miranda is a volunteer teacher who

       takes care of the pre-school children in

       this rural community, the children ranging

       from two to four years. Because of her love

       for the children, she offers her services

       without any salary. The pre-school children

       in this community do not attend day-care

       centers in the cities; they train non-

       working mothers and relatives how to work

       with children.



       As all mothers are unemployed, they meet

       twice a week and spend time to train them

       in respect of all the preliminary skills.

       As they come twice a week, they are given

       tasks to do at home, on which they must

       then give feedback.



       The parents bring their children to

       orientate them on the work when they are at

       home. There is great support from these
14 November 2001                               Page 253 of 320


        non-working mothers, as they do great work

        in helping and assisting the teachers to do

        all the activities relating to teaching and

        learning.



        There are 18 children and one teacher, who

        always work with the mothers. She teaches

        them skills to work with their families.



        Although children in this pre-school

        receive non-formal education, they have the

        same educational status and training

        programmes as those in the day-care

        centres. The government monitors all these

        activities.



   I.   Visit to Ministry of Higher Education -

        official view by Minister of Higher

        Education, Hon Dr Fernando Vecino Alegret



        Higher Education in Cuba: Experiences,

        Challenges and Perspectives
14 November 2001                              Page 254 of 320


       The education system in Cuba has two

       different Ministries, headed by the

       Minister of Education, Hon I Gomez, and the

       Minister of Higher Education, Dr Fernando

       Vecino Alegret, respectively.



       There are 52 higher education centres and

       700 000 university graduates. The main aim

       is to reach the heart of the people and not

       only instruct them but also educate and

       train them.



       The commitment of the government is to give

       students a career related to their studies,

       and this is a serious commitment nobody can

       find in any other country.



       The Commander-in-Chief, Pres Fidel Castro,

       is leading programmes of development in

       social fairness, and they have the

       commitment to train more teachers to work

       on the programmes.
14 November 2001                               Page 255 of 320


       The Minister also mentioned that he has

       recently visited three South African

       Universities - WITS, the University of the

       North West and UNISA - and he was very much

       impressed by UNISA on the work it

       developed. In South Africa they send their

       students to WITS and Vista University

       (Soweto branch) for scientific research and

       for other education-related matters.



       The Minister expressed a wish for a closer

       relationship with South African

       institutions of higher learning and the

       doors are open to any South African

       delegation to visit Cuba.



       For the Cuban society, the university is

       the social institution par excellence,

       which is bestowed with the responsibility

       of preserving, developing and spreading

       culture, the practical and concrete

       function of which is to ensure the training

       and development of citizens who, with

       rigorous scientific and technical
14 November 2001                              Page 256 of 320


       qualifications and with solid moral and

       ethical values as agents of economic and

       socio-political processes and of

       intellectual and material goods production,

       will allow humanity to continue its

       development. The university has a moral and

       social obligation to direct all its

       intelligence and action to facilitate the

       reality of a world made for all, instead of

       a world made for just a few; a world in

       which many languages are spoken, instead of

       a world in which one language replaces all

       the others; and a world proud of its

       enriched culture made up of many cultures,

       instead of a world of one single culture

       impoverished by one and only one

       overwhelming crushing vision and influence.



       Cuba has co-operated and actively

       participated in the fully-fledged

       development of Cuban society and its

       growing integration into the congress of

       nations, and it has contributed to the

       development of other peoples, mainly in
14 November 2001                               Page 257 of 320


       Latin-America and the Caribbean, in an

       environment of open and sincere co-

       operation. With this in mind, Cuban higher

       education has been working in the past 40

       years in the academic field and in

       university research, services and outreach

       to the community, and Cuban universities

       project their vision into the new century.



       In the history of Cuban higher education,

       the need to have close ties between

       university and society has been reflected

       since the end of the 18th century, when

       Father Agustin Cabarello advocated the

       modernisation of higher education.



       Cuban institutions of higher learning are

       clearly aware that the interaction of

       university and society - the impact of what

       they do in the communities and of what they

       receive from the community - are essential

       elements for consolidation of the ongoing

       socio-economic transformation in the

       country and for the future demands created
14 November 2001                             Page 258 of 320


       by development. The improvement of

       curricula in undergraduate programmes is an

       inherent component of the rendering of

       account of universities to society.



       43 years ago, they had 14 000 to 15 000

       graduates, one million illiterate people,

       three official universities and a number of

       private universities which were only meant

       for the rich.



       At present there are no private entities in

       education, except schools belonging to

       diplomatic bodies, and no Cuban sends his

       or her children to private and religious

       schools.



       There are two top priorities of the

       Ministry - massive and basic education and

       higher education, and both have different

       budgets. They do not need any help from any

       country in relation to education.
14 November 2001                               Page 259 of 320


       Every year they send 800 university

       professors abroad. While they are abroad,

       their families are taken care of. They also

       have an opportunity of self-financing

       students, and encourage that countries

       should send their students to study at

       institutions in Cuba. Among the foreign

       students, they have 200 South Africans

       presently studying in Cuba, more than 100

       pursuing a career in medical sciences.



       In his view, economic contribution becomes

       very important because students are trained

       for free.



       Statistics



       61% of the students are women; 40% of the

       engineers are women; 70% of the women are

       doing medical sciences; 30% of the women

       are doing pedagogical studies; 45% of the

       students in universities are women; and

       there are few women chancellors and Rectors

       at universities.
14 November 2001                               Page 260 of 320


       This statistics show that women are highly

       motivated and see education as the key to

       their success. The number of women studying

       in universities is increasing, and these

       figures have also increased in respect of

       research studies.



       Distance education and learning



       More than 15 000 students are distance

       learners. They are provided with books, but

       do not have enough computers, no resources,

       videos and other forms of communication,

       like e-mail. The Ministry has created

       research centres for training PHDs. Cuba is

       ready for the jump to distance learning

       within four to six years, based on the

       experience in South Africa.



       Higher education centres



       There are 52 institutions of higher

       learning in Cuba. The main university,

       established in Havana in 1978, is still
14 November 2001                              Page 261 of 320


       regarded by Cubans as a very important

       institution of higher learning.



       How to manage number of students and jobs



       The three Ministries - Labour, Economy and

       Social Security - have to provide jobs to

       graduates, as these Ministries know the

       sources of the country's qualified labour

       force. The Ministry of Economy works

       jointly with the Ministry of Labour in the

       joint venture of training students. The

       enrolment plans are supported by demands of

       these Ministries.



       Funding universities



       Education in Cuba is 100% financed. The

       budget is allocated in Cuban pesos. As the

       budget is always a problem, they have a

       dual currency - US dollars and pesos. Both

       Ministries are still experiencing problems

       with purchasing scientific material with

       their currency. Having the dual economy,
14 November 2001                             Page 262 of 320


       everything negotiated in education with

       Cuban entities is paid in pesos and have

       limitations.



       Additional funding is still needed to buy

       more learning material.



       Scientific research



       Scientific research refers to science,

       technical and cultural sciences. Research

       is done to meet the needs of the grassroots

       people in the country, and pedagogical

       research is perceived as one of the main

       research topics in social sciences.



       40% of students are conducting research

       with university professors. Their main

       interest is the development of technology

       and scientific research.



       Globalisation
14 November 2001                             Page 263 of 320


       During capitalism, prostitution was high.

       There were countries that used to send

       groups of men to abuse women there.



       At present, there are no drugs, no casinos,

       no gambling and no brothels, and tourism is

       strong.



       In every municipality, children attend

       school. There are 20 000 schools, of which

       29 have only one student. "Where you find

       the student, you find the school".



       19 000 schools are now electrified with

       solar power, and have televisions and video

       machines. They train teachers to create

       values for students.



       As education was part of the revolution,

       the country spends lots of money on

       education.



       Disabled people at universities
14 November 2001                                Page 264 of 320


        Disabled people are cared for by the rest

        of the students, who help them and take

        care of their interests. Blind people carry

        their sticks, and everybody knows that they

        are blind. The number of disabled people is

        very small.



        HIV/AIDS



        No child has been born with HIV/AIDS in the

        last three years. A child born disabled is

        given proper health care. Women are trained

        in how to control the birth rate. The

        HIV/AIDS centres are there for the

        infected, and care for them.



   J.   Visit to historical city centre of Old

        Havana and Africa House



        Historical city centre of Old Havana



        This museum, in front of the historical

        city centre, was built in 1776 and in 1781.

        It was officially opened as a House of
14 November 2001                               Page 265 of 320


       Government. It is a palace in the capital

       of Cuba. In 1967 it opened its doors as a

       museum of the city.



       Today, it is still regarded as one of the

       most important buildings in the history of

       Cuba. The museum is situated in a very

       important street which links the models of

       that time and in front of the armed square

       used by the military during the colonial

       era.



       Africa House



       This House was established on 1 June 1986

       with the objective to promote African

       culture and integrate African and Cuban

       cultures. There are 3 000 pieces of African

       art represented by 38 countries. The

       Nigerian artist, Mr Bisi Fayeke, made the

       beautiful woman sculpture displayed in the

       main entrance.



       Among the African artwork displayed were:
14 November 2001                               Page 266 of 320


           *Escultura (Ti Jwara) Utilizana en

            Ceremonias - Mali.



           *Caxadores Tallados end Madera - Congo.



           *Three pieces of sculptures made in the

            13th century - Angola.



           *Four pieces of art, portraying slavery.



           *Five pieces of art - Mozambique.



        Various diplomatic missions donated some of

        the artwork. There is no artwork from South

        Africa.



   K.   Meeting with Minister of Education -

        official view by Minister, Hon I Gomez



        The Minister of Education, the Hon I Gomez,

        the Director of International Relations,

        warmly welcomed the delegation and the

        President of the Commission on Education,
14 November 2001                               Page 267 of 320


       Science and Culture at the working dinner

       hosted by the Ministry of Education.



       The Cuban education system is different

       from the South African system. The Minister

       of Education has limited power to schools,

       but is in charge of legislation. The

       Committee of the National Assembly suggests

       to the National Assembly what is needed.



       Schools do not belong to the Minister; they

       are run by the People's Power at municipal

       level. The municipalities appoint the

       teachers, manage and control the budget,

       distribute the resources according to the

       size of the schools.



       All students are encouraged to obtain a

       university degree.



       The Ministry appoints the Chancellor and

       Deans, and manages approximately 16

       universities in respect of general profile.

       The Ministry of Health Care manages five
14 November 2001                               Page 268 of 320


       medical universities and schools of

       medicine; the Ministry of Sport manages art

       schools; and the Ministry of Foreign

       Affairs manages specific universities with

       specific activities.



       Most of the Ministers are not Deputies

       (MPs). Parties do not nominate Ministers.

       Municipalities elect the Deputies. In

       Parliament, the Hon I Gomez does not

       represent the Ministry of Education, but

       the interest of his nation.



       The Ministry of Higher Education draft

       policies for higher education. The 16

       pedagogical universities are under the

       umbrella of the Ministry of Education.



       The Minister is aware of the education

       system in South Africa, and he has visited

       Pretoria when Prof S Bhengu was our

       Minister of Education.
14 November 2001                                  Page 269 of 320


       Prof K Asmal also met him during his visit

       to Cuba in June, and they agreed on two

       objectives: Advice for the literacy

       campaign, and Mathematics and Science under

       the new general condition from the

       economical and financial point of view: 60

       teachers are to travel to South Africa; an

       action plan will be adjusted according to

       the agreement; and the delegation from the

       Ministry will interview the teachers

       priorto     departure in September 2001.



       Pres Fidel Castro gives all his support for

       education in South Africa, and the

       government will continue to give quality

       education and experience in respect of

       South Africans, as South Africa offer co-

       operation and experience.



       The literacy campaign played a vital role

       in eradicating illiteracy amongst Cubans.

       Pres Fidel Castro recommended inexpensive

       ways and methods, like the radio, to
14 November 2001                               Page 270 of 320


       eliminate illiteracy in one year. His

       methods were very efficient and successful.



       Not everybody has a television set; radio

       is regarded as the most important form of

       public broadcast in Cuba, to use language

       that is understandable to the masses is of

       vital importance.



       For the national campaign to be successful,

       one need to do it in a language that people

       speaks and understands.



       Programmes on Information Technology



       They have programmes broadcast in the

       morning and afternoon, aimed at educating

       millions of people. They have manuals in

       French and they have now prepared to do

       programmes in Portuguese.



       Programmes to train Mathematics and Science

       teachers in South Africa have been agreed

       upon by the Cuban government. They have
14 November 2001                               Page 271 of 320


       already trained 130 teachers in English and

       are now ready to go to South Africa. They

       will prepare them and convey teaching

       skills in respect of Mathematics and

       Science. Better training for South African

       teachers does not mean taking their jobs.



       The government is aware that South Africa

       has teachers without jobs, but in Cuba

       there are no extra teachers. They still

       need more teachers closer to the children,

       hence the need for another 15 000.

       Education in Cuba is acknowledged

       worldwide, including the USA.



       There are sets of conditions recognized by

       UNICEF that acknowledges the system the

       country has in managing the education

       system. Research was carried out by

       UNISESCO on work developed in early

       learning, qualification of teachers,

       devotion of teachers to their work in

       school environment, control of quality of
14 November 2001                              Page 272 of 320


       teaching profession, and availability of

       teaching aids and books.



       Most professor/teachers in pedagogical

       universities earn more than the Minister.



       Early learning centres



       There are 800 000 children (less than one

       to five years old), and the government is

       taking care of them. There are 1 115 day-

       care centres. They all enter day-care at

       the age of one year - this was agreed on in

       congress. These children are given a

       certain level of education before they

       start formal schooling. Because most of the

       parents are not working, the government

       subsidises and trains them in taking care

       of their children. Their health is in the

       hands of family doctors.



       Staff members are college graduates.
14 November 2001                                Page 273 of 320

   L.   Visit to International Sport University -

        official view by Director of International

        Relations, Mr F A D Alfonso



        This is the youngest university in the

        country, sponsoring free education to non-

        Cubans. It was inaugurated by Pres Fidel

        Castro on 23 February 2001 and formally

        opened in June 2001.



        Although there are four South African

        students presently studying at the

        university, the delegation only had an

        opportunity to meet with two, both from the

        North West - Tebogo Miriam Kgwathe and

        Eleanor Estelle Daniels. The other two,

        Tebogo Thebehae and Vincent Mfundisi, both

        from the Free State, were on holiday in

        South Africa during our visit to the

        institution.



        At present, there are 662 students from 57

        countries. As the medium of instruction is

        Spanish, non-Spanish students are taught
14 November 2001                               Page 274 of 320


       and trained to speak Spanish. Their mission

       is to train students to be trainers, so

       that they can transform physical education

       and sport, and to take the knowledge and

       apply it in their respective countries.



       Students here are devoted to

       professionalism, efficiency and

       competitiveness, and are also permanent

       innovators and creators. They have a sense

       of belonging - they must feel what they are

       doing and where they belong.



       As students come from diverse cultures,

       they strongly value their cultural values,

       and activities are based on solidarity.

       Students do not stay together according to

       countries, but according to academic years.

       They are only grouped together in respect

       of cultural activities, and as a result

       they learn to maintain their cultural

       roots.
14 November 2001                               Page 275 of 320


       As students come from different regions of

       the world, their countries are solely

       responsible for their airfares to Cuba, and

       on arrival they are given the necessary

       requirements, uniform, toiletry and a

       monthly allowance of 50 pesos, which they

       use as pocket money. This allowance does

       not cover any needs of the school, and no

       payment for schoolbooks. Everything is

       taken care of by the Cuban government until

       completion of their studies.



       Requirement for admission



           *The age limit is 25 years.



           *Students must be physically and

           mentally ready for school.



           *Students must present certificates to

           prove that they are free from any

           illnesses or HIV/AIDS.
14 November 2001                               Page 276 of 320


           *Students must submit their birth

           certificates.



           *They must submit certified mid-summer

           school marks.



           *Girls must not be pregnant (pregnancy

           is incompatible with the training).



       Enrolment



       At present, there are 662 students and 75

       teachers. The student population comprises

       50% boys and 50% girls, with countries

       represented as follows: African - 29,

       Latin-America - 16, Asian - 1, and

       Caribbean - 11. In Latin-America, there is

       only one country (Cororica), which is not

       represented. They have a maximum number of

       students in respact of any given country,

       and they work on allocations based on the

       capacity of each country, depending on the

       capacity of enrolment every year. Foreign

       Affairs is directly responsible for
14 November 2001                               Page 277 of 320


       distribution through the Cuban Embassy in a

       particular country. Fair distribution is

       taken into account for all countries.



       The duration of the course is five years;

       each year is divided into two semesters.

       Towards the end of their studies, they must

       present a thesis, and on completion, they

       obtain degrees in Physical Education and

       Sport. The teachers teach sport according

       to the Olympic programme and all teachers

       are university graduates and have ample

       knowledge of physical education and sport.



       Characteristics of Programme



       The entire university programme is of a

       pedagogical nature; they do not train

       athletics but athletic trainers and

       professionals. They match the subjects to

       the characteristics of the programme. At

       university level, they do not train

       specialists but professionals. During their

       studies, they participate in recreative
14 November 2001                            Page 278 of 320


       activities to be able to participate in

       physical rehabilitation. As they teach

       different groups of subjects, students can

       work in rehabilitation centres in

       hospitals. Other subjects include:



           *Spanish - Spanish-speaking students

           take English as a second language.



           *History and Sociology.



           *Computer Science - they can apply their

           training in a working environment.



           *Cuban students take Cuban History while

           other take universal studies.



           *They do not teach political subjects.



           *Optional subjects - sport that they

           would like to be coaches in.



       All the subjects are directed to their

       professions.
14 November 2001                               Page 279 of 320

       Sports Facilities



       As this used to be a military school, the

       school management is reconstructing it, in

       three phases. There are no sporting

       facilities, but by the end of the

       reconstruction process, they will have 30

       of them, including swimming pools and two

       multi-purpose rooms. By the time we visited

       the university, they were finishing the

       second phase of reconstruction.



       Other Services



       They have a large kitchen, a lounge

       accommodating 400 students, a bakery,

       telephone and television services operating

       24 hours per day, a coffee shop, a post

       office, a primary care hospital with 20

       beds (eight for girls and 12 for boys), a

       laboratory, X-Ray facilities, a pharmacy,

       physiotherapy facilities, a library which

       opens daily from Monday to Friday and is

       accessed by students themselves, access to
14 November 2001                              Page 280 of 320


       e-mail and the Internet, and three computer

       laboratories with 12 computers each.



       Communication channels



       Students use telephone cards, sold at 1US$,

       to call home. They are also given full

       support by means of access to e-mail in

       order to communicate with their families,

       as well as on Internet.



       Allocation of Students



       They have separate boarding rooms for boys

       and girls, and they only mix in class, in

       the lounge and during school activities.

       Classes are mixed groups from different

       countries, and it is normal to find mixed

       love relationships from cross-cultural

       countries among students.



       Prevention of pregnancy and other diseases
14 November 2001                                Page 281 of 320


        The school conducts a strong programme of

        sex education not only to prevent pregnancy

        but also sexually transmitted diseases. The

        management of hospital takes this into

        account. Students have access to free

        condoms available in the hospital. When

        students return from the school holidays,

        they do periodical medical check ups and

        test on chloroquin (treatment used to treat

        malaria).



        When they detect HIV status from any

        student, he/she is taken to the centre to

        conduct necessary medical tests and take

        measures to send the student home.



        After the discussions, the delegation had

        an opportunity to tour around the

        university.



   M.   Visit to Latin-American School of Medical

        Sciences - official view
14 November 2001                               Page 282 of 320


       The Latin-American School of Medical

       Sciences had previously 3 432 students from

       24 countries: 20 Latin America and

       Caribbean countries and 4 African

       countries. The idea of the school came from

       Latin America and Caribbean countries with

       an aim to bring the student around the

       world to train them as doctors and not

       specialists, and not to preserve medicine

       as merchandise, to see human being as a

       client.



       The school is located in the facilities of

       what used to be a Naval Academy for the

       formation of Army and marine higher

       officers. It has 82 buildings with 28

       laboratories in an area of 1 200 000 square

       metres, which were donated by the Cuban

       Ministry of the Army to the Ministry of

       Public Health on 31 December 1998.



       This project was created after the

       devastation caused by George and Mitch

       hurricanes, which resulted in more than 7
14 November 2001                            Page 283 of 320


       000 deaths and desolation to thousands of

       people at the end of 1998.



       Out of its spirit of solidarity the Cuban

       government immediately sent hundreds of

       doctors in medical brigades to help the

       affected people who are mostly still in the

       poorest populations in the rural areas of

       each country.



       Together with this collaboration, President

       Fidel Castro, had an idea of offering a

       more long-lasting help to these fraternal

       peoples. That is why only 3 months after

       the natural disaster the Cuban government

       gave the opportunity to Central American

       youngsters with a bachelor degree - mainly

       from poor families in the rural areas, to

       receive scholarships to study medicine in

       Cuba.



       The number of students in the first group

       was increased due to requests of the Latin

       American countries and thus instead of the
14 November 2001                              Page 284 of 320


       approximately 700 students that were

       expected from Central America, 1 929

       students from 18 Latin-American countries

       arrived.



       During the first quarter of this year a

       second group joined this initial group,

       which is now in the second year of studies.



       Today, there are 5 000 students registered

       with the school from 60 countries with 600

       indigenous people, with approximately 300

       to 400 professors. They admit 1 500 to 2

       000 foreign students every year.



       Amongst the nations represented in this

       institution are Mexico, Belize, Guatemala,

       Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Panama,

       and the Dominican Republic, Venezuela,

       Colombia, Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, Chile,

       Brazil, Uruguay, Argentina; and the African

       nations of Equatorial Guinea, Cape Verde

       and Guinea-Bissau.
14 November 2001                               Page 285 of 320


       56% of the registrations are girls, with

       more than 50 ethnical groups. All lessons

       are delivered in Spanish. For the students

       of this school, just as for Cuban students,

       the lessons, lodging, books, toiletry,

       teaching materials and other facilities are

       gratuitous. They are in boarding regime and

       finish their teaching activities on Friday

       afternoon. Each student receives an

       allowance of 100 pesos every month.



       In this campus they stay for two years six

       months during their Basic Sciences cycle,

       (six months - levelling course; two years

       for Basic Medical Science) and for the

       remainder of their studies they go to the

       21 Medical Faculties all over Cuba where

       they link practice and theory. The medical

       doctor has to be trained for six years. If

       the student has been studying medical

       science in his or her country, the course

       takes lesser time, as medical science

       studies differ from country to country.
14 November 2001                               Page 286 of 320


       To complement the comprehensive attention

       that they receive during the six years of

       Medicine studies, different recreational,

       cultural, and sports activities are carried

       out which favour their formation as doctors

       with a high scientific, technical,

       cultural, ethical and humanitarian level.



       The future doctors who graduate from the

       Latin America School of Medicine will be

       missionaries who will offer daily care to

       their patients to help alleviate the most

       devastating hurricanes that affect the

       Third World: those of economic and social

       character.



       It has been noticed with appreciation that

       most students are interested in studying

       both western and traditional medicine. They

       have developed green medicine (traditional

       medicine) and created teams of work formed

       by the psychologists to take care of

       patients to follow a kind of therapy to be

       given to patients with depression and
14 November 2001                               Page 287 of 320


       stress etc. The flower therapy is very

       effective in Cuba, and the doctors in the

       army used green medicine, now it is

       believed that if there were no medicine,

       people would have gone to the mountain.

       This is seen to substitute western

       medicine.



       Cuban traditional medicine is

       scientifically and laboratory based taking

       into account the western-based culture in

       Cuba. This method of teaching traditional

       medicine was fully developed in 1991, by

       Cuba government and doctors at the medical

       institutes develop these medicines.



       Traditional healers are fully trained.

       Family doctors work on these programmes at

       the national level, and they have

       institutions, hospitals and clinics.



       The delegation noted that there is an

       outward international sponsorship to all
14 November 2001                               Page 288 of 320


       countries in the Latin America and around

       the world.



       Legislation guarding activities of

       institution



       There is joint work of two Ministries,

       namely; Ministry of Health, which is in

       charge of content and Ministry of Higher

       Education, which is in charge of

       methodology and procedures to teach in

       class. The budget is under the control of

       Health Care Ministry.



       Criteria and requirements for admission



           *The student must be between 18 and 25

           years old and should pass senior high

           school (Grade 12).



           *He or she must have a bachelor degree

           or similar level or education and in

           the leveling course, chemistry is

           compulsory.
14 November 2001                             Page 289 of 320


            *He or she must come from the poor areas

            or rural areas.



            *He or she must have no addiction to

            drugs and alcohol.



            *Medium of instruction for all courses

            is Spanish.



        Programmes of study are the same for foreign

        and Cuban students and foreign students

        have to study harder because illnesses may

        not be the same in their communities, as a

        result they have to make great efforts to

        study those illnesses.



   N.   Visit to Social Workers School- official

        view by Director of School and President of

        Commission on Education and Culture, Mr A

        Benarides



        This school or youth-driven project is

        under the umbrella of Ministry of

        Education, taking care of students studying
14 November 2001                              Page 290 of 320


       pedagogical science, special science and

       primary education. The school started in

       August 2000 and key objective is to solve

       social problems within the communities.

       This was an idea of the Commander in Chief,

       President Fidel Castro who developed one of

       the programmes of the revolution, taking

       care of social problems and social changes

       of all the masses in Cuba. It was mentioned

       that even after the revolution they still

       had historic problems, which they could not

       transform in a short period of time.



       As it is the only school operating in Cuba,

       there is an intention to open three more,

       one in the western and two in eastern parts

       of the country. There have been many

       requests to train social workers at

       universities, but in Cuba, they are trained

       in various institutions



       This school trains group of young people

       between 18 and 22 years who are Grade 12

       graduates to become social workers and to
14 November 2001                               Page 291 of 320


       train the youth to be socially productive.

       The students are trained to take care of

       impact in the young population, to look at

       families with social and economic problems.

       They have 180 teachers training 7 000

       students per semester, over a period of

       five-and-a-half months, 14 000 students are

       trained for this programme per annum. The

       number of teachers varies and is determined

       by the number of student enrolment. They

       also get assistance from university

       professors to lecture certain courses free

       of charge and with no costs involved and

       teaching certain subjects in the primary

       schools when needed.



       After this period they are deployed to the

       communities to look for those students who

       could not be in the system. They work

       jointly with other institutions of the

       government and young population on the

       impact of their family problems to address

       their needs. All families in Cuba can

       access social security.
14 November 2001                            Page 292 of 320


       Only Cubans are trained in this programme

       and this is seen as an incentive for those

       who did not have an opportunity to go to

       universities to further their studies. They

       attend school from Monday to Friday and on

       Saturday; they do their practical work.

       Once they are admitted to the university as

       part time students, they attend once a week

       and the duration of the course is 5 years.

       The huge amount of work is done at home.

       They report to the Young Communist League

       and integrate study and work. Research is

       used as a tool to elaborate proposals to

       work on the solutions.



       As the Young Communist League leads all

       youth projects, they come back to school to

       report and feedback to this league and to

       their teachers once a week on the work done

       and needs of the people. Common problems

       they get as a form of feedback related to

       their studies are employment (orientate

       population into different jobs as they

       sometimes do not know options of
14 November 2001                               Page 293 of 320


       employment); cases of young people who did

       not get an opportunity to study at the

       university; problems of families with low

       income; and taking care of persons with

       illnesses who need health care.



       When they are at the university, they

       attend regular courses on a part-time

       basis. They are trained to work with

       families and young people visiting them in

       their homes to study the environment and

       problems encountered by that environment

       and access young population to employment.

       Students do subjects related in working in

       psychological environment, and they propose

       solutions to the problems and information

       on the result of the revolution are also

       given to them. It was mentioned that there

       are various solutions to their problems,

       one of them is to give them food, give

       books to children in need and jobs to

       parents in need.
14 November 2001                               Page 294 of 320


       Any person who is not employed, they

       immediately look for opportunities for one

       to study. They also talk to the people in

       the communities and look for different

       options to work and if unqualified, they

       are sent to training sessions in order to

       get jobs. The teachers at all times do

       promote possibilities and opportunities for

       their students.



       The problems they sometimes capture in the

       communities are of cultural nature, i.e.

       families of low intellectual and low school

       level. They then look for the opportunities

       for their children to access day care

       centres and to get jobs that are in line

       with their qualifications especially for

       those who are not qualified. They also do

       educational work, taking children to art

       schools, or any technical school to do

       other technical studies.



       On completion of the studies they are

       employed and come under the umbrella of the
14 November 2001                               Page 295 of 320


       Young Communist League, which monitors the

       budget but they receive their salaries from

       different Ministries. This league offer

       studies to those students who were unable

       to further their studies. This is the call

       from Pres Fidel Castro and the Young

       Communist League that no person should be

       in prison. Such projects prevent youth to

       be imprisoned.



       They can access any university in Cuba

       without a test, as it is an entry

       requirement for admission in any university

       in Cuba. They can take humanities studies

       so as to specialise in doing social work.

       As according to the Director, university

       studies are seen to be more important

       because they become psychologists and

       sociologists, which enable them to work

       with any type of society. They can also

       work in the Ministries of Social Security

       and Health as well as the NGOs.
14 November 2001                                Page 296 of 320


        The Cuban government strongly believes that

        all projects should be directly youth-

        driven to encourage them to see the

        importance of education.



        Although they have insufficient resources

        to solve the severe housing problem and

        poor living conditions in their houses,

        they are able to learn.



        The amount of grant as a form of assistance

        each family unit receives, depends on the

        type of problem they have which ranges from

        50 to 200 pesos per month. The main

        objective of the government is not to give

        them grants but in the case where one

        cannot work because of serious illnesses

        like nervous breakdown or taking care of

        the elderly, the grant is permanent.



   O.   Visit to CINED Educational Film Centre -

        official view by Mr I Barreto and teachers
14 November 2001                               Page 297 of 320


       This company which is under an umbrella of

       the Ministry of Education the only company

       of this kind in Cuba, co-ordinate and

       produces audio-visual, teaching and

       learning aids, videos, slides and leisure

       materials for children. It is in support of

       the Ministry and takes priority and needs

       of the Ministry, and transformation of

       curriculum of Ministry of Education, to

       provide needy materials on different levels

       of teaching to support work of the

       teachers/professors and not to substitute

       them. They also support the work with the

       research and opinion of teachers and

       professors.



       They do not do video work on their own but

       with the institutions, and they involve

       teachers and students. The video programmes

       support television programmes. Having 30

       years experience in its work, they are able

       to provide these materials to all Cuban

       schools and other different institutions.

       Each school is supplied with a television
14 November 2001                               Page 298 of 320


       set and video machine to enable them to

       access these materials.



       They have already distributed 40 000

       cassettes to schools and to all different

       sectors in the country containing films

       with recreational materials approaching

       every subject in education.



       These educational programmes approach

       certain sex education, political and

       military instruction, preservation and

       environment, which are aimed and directed

       from day care centres to senior high

       school, for different age groups. They are

       also aimed at the teachers/professors to

       improve their cultural level.



       This company also provide computers to

       rural schools, which enable them to watch

       using the power and solar systems. These

       computers were bought through the agreement

       with the Republic of China to supply the

       computers to rural schools and given a
14 November 2001                             Page 299 of 320


       priority also to those schools with five

       students or one student. As this project is

       run by the Young Communist League project,

       they mobilise the youth to be involved in

       such programmes.



       Programmes/project run by the Young

       Communist League include:



       *Audio Visual Programmes.



       *University for All (it is broadcast three

         times a week).



       *Video Halls.



       *Computing class.



       *Social Workers Programmes.



       *School of Art Instructors.



       *Distance Training (they videos and all

         equipment for video conferring).
14 November 2001                             Page 300 of 320


       They do research to make sure that these

       programmes are utilised properly by

       creating programmes to train educational

       professors to meet their needs and

       interests and for students to use these

       programmes. As they use a lot of

       technology, they control the work of the

       visual materials as it serves as an

       important tool or feedback source on how

       they are used in the classroom.



       There has been close working relationship

       with Venezuala regarding these programmes.

       They have signed agreements with Latin

       American Association of Educational

       Programmes, with Spain and Mexico to supply

       them with the materials to assist their

       schools. They are ready to help any country

       with these materials.



       Although they are self-financed, part of

       the project is funded by the State through

       Ministry of Education and Young Communist

       League.
14 November 2001                                Page 301 of 320

   P.   Visit to Museum of Revolution



        This museum was the Presidential Palace

        before the revolution. In 1957 it portrayed

        a very significant era where Batista killed

        a group of 50 people inside the building

        (bullets shots are still on the walls). In

        1974 it was officially opened as a national

        museum.



        This is one of the historical palaces in

        Cuba. Personalities such as Fidel Castro,

        Enersto Guevara, Camilo Cienfuegos and

        Ravil Castro took part in the ordinary

        sessions on Tuesdays and Fridays. They

        adopted measures of wide popular benefits

        that characterize the programme of the

        revolution.



        The delegation was given an opportunity to

        tour around the museum.



        Pres Fidel Castro lighted the Flame of

        Freedom outside the museum in 1989 to
14 November 2001                                Page 302 of 320


        attribute for all fallen heros of the

        nation.



   Q.   Visit to Varadero Beach



        A lunch was hosted at the Protocol House by

        the National Assembly of People's Power

        during the visit to the Varadero Beach.



   R.   Visit to Deputy Ministry of Foreign

        Relations - official view by Deputy

        Minister, Hon Jose Guerra Menchero



        The Minister congratulated Dr Rajoo for the

        report he presented to Cuba in 1999.



        There are 500 people working in the

        Ministry of Foreign Relation ranging from

        the Minister to personnel.



        In 1959 they had 26 embassies inside and 27

        outside. Today, they have 99 embassies, 118

        missions including the consulates. Cuba is

        isolated due to economic blockage. About
14 November 2001                               Page 303 of 320


       167 countries voted in favour of Cuba while

       3 against and have best relations with

       South Africa.



       The members of ACP (Africa Caribbean

       Pacific) have to accept certain conditions

       to be the members of the European Union

       (EU). For Cuba, there is no need for

       conditionality to be the member and no need

       for paper condition. There are no

       conditions to any country, which have

       diplomatic relations with Cuba. They have

       good relations with Latin America.



       81% of Cubans are owners of their houses.

       The government employees are the lowest

       paid. The Deputy Minister earns US$27 per

       month (R216); an official, US$20 (R160),

       while the policeman receives US$1 (R8).

       There are no special benefits among

       citizens.



       Relations with foreign students
14 November 2001                               Page 304 of 320


       The Ministry is directly in charge of

       giving and securing the scholarships; and

       there is a permanent unit dealing with this

       area.



       There are 9 000 foreign students studying

       in Cuba. Their respective governments only

       pay for their tickets and once the student

       arrives, everything is taken care of by the

       government except in postgraduate's

       studies.



       Out of 11,2 million inhabitants, they have

       80 000 doctors. They are they compare with

       the best in medicine and have developed

       their medical profession and their

       pharmaceutical industry.



       Research on life-threatening diseases



       They do research on HIV and are working on

       the vaccine. They are free to work at any

       country that wants to collaborate, as they
14 November 2001                               Page 305 of 320


        are ready to co-operate. HIV needs a lot of

        knowledge.



        Approximately 2 038 people in Cuba are HIV.

        The low average growth rate is 0,2%.



        The struggle for HIV is becoming useful for

        teenage pregnancy; figures are too high.

        There is still a big problem in the

        countryside regarding teenage pregnancy.

        Abortion is free and is done under the

        control of medical supervisor. Back street

        abortionists are severely punished.



        View change in communist work



        The parties in Soviet Union were separated

        to the masses. According to the Minister

        "to stay in power, people should support

        you". Public health and education are the

        benefits that cannot be stopped.



   S.   Visit to Agricultural Havana University -

        official view by University Management
14 November 2001                               Page 306 of 320


       This university is the leading sector in

       agriculture under the umbrella of the

       national institute for agricultural health.

       There are 300 professors, 2 000

       undergraduates, 4 000 post graduates and

       135 foreign students. 34 foreign countries

       are represented at this university and they

       continually sustain international work with

       these foreign countries. The professors

       work mainly with undergraduate students at

       the university and teach postgraduates

       during holidays.



       They are considering converting the

       university into international university

       because of cultural impact of students and

       teachers.



       None of the students receive salary, they

       are only given an allowance as part of

       their practice to enhance knowledge in

       labour and research. Postgraduate studies

       are more demanding in various specialities.
14 November 2001                              Page 307 of 320

       Integration of studies and agriculture



       They train the students for them to have

       better performance in workplace. They spend

       less time in class; they work as

       technicians and devote more time to their

       research to give solutions to the problems

       in Havana province. They send students to

       companies independent to the university and

       co-operatives as part of their practice.



       Planning of curriculum and teach



       They specify teaching, research and

       productive subject each student should

       take. They support a lot of work in

       relations with production entities, sending

       them to farming and agricultural entities.

       The thesis is based on production problems.



       Since 1999, training of students on social

       and agricultural science aimed at community

       work. This is a new experience, study and

       research and transformation. The key
14 November 2001                                Page 308 of 320


        principle is to train in the society for

        society and links that surrounds the

        community.



        Links with South Africa



        They had South African students prior 1994,

        but as to now none are presently studying

        at the university although they have

        agreements with South African universities.

        They are open to any visible exchange

        because they have strong basic material

        with universities abroad and have

        experience of work with Africa.



        The university would like to establish

        links and co-operation with South Africa.



   T.   Comments and recommendations



        1.   The delegation envisages that youth of

             this country should be involved in the

             literacy campaigns linking it up along

             with the Constitution and guidelines
14 November 2001                                Page 309 of 320


            should be clearly stated in that

            regard.



       2.   There should be massive mobilization by

            SANLI, taking everybody on board

            including organizations, NGOs, churches

            and unions etc. in the literacy

            campaign.



       3.   Involvement of media should be

            encouraged for promotion of the

            literacy campaigns.



       4.   Inclusive in education system should be

            encouraged and continuous support

            system for those students who have been

            integrated at district level should be

            strongly emphasized.



       5.   Preparatory work at educare centres and

            home based educational centres must be

            done to train necessary personnel

            before implementation, and where

            facilities do not exist, mechanisms
14 November 2001                                Page 310 of 320


            should be created to train mothers to

            teach their children.



       6.   South African education system should

            integrate school work with the world of

            work within the curriculum and this can

            honour their physical work in their

            schools.



       7.   When schools close, students should be

            encouraged to provide assistance in

            HIV/Aids awareness programmes,

            assisting the senior citizen in

            pensions pay points and in the literacy

            campaigns in all provinces in the

            country.



       8.   Schools should restore discipline and

            work ethics.



       9.   There is a need for South Africa to

            have its own sport academy, which will

            train students in all sporting fields

            as well as the physical education,
14 November 2001                               Page 311 of 320


           using the unused infrastructure i.e.

           teacher colleges.



       10. There should be more links between

           South African universities with those

           in Cuba.



       11. South African government needs to

           identify artistic articles that would

           represent South Africa and be displayed

           at the Africa House.



       12. The Committee should have conscious

           link up with the Portfolio Committee on

           Sport and Recreation, as they have

           visited the institution during their

           visit early this year.



       13. There should be mass involvement of

           youth especially for those who cannot

           study through to Grade 12 in the

           management of social problems within

           communities.
14 November 2001                               Page 312 of 320


       14. There is a need for infrastructure to

           house youth to be trained for short

           courses, e. g 4 - 5 months programmes.

           They should be trained on day to day

           problems of the communities and on

           other broader context of other courses

           like brick laying, so as to build

           houses needed for social development.



       15. There is a need to promote the spirit

           of voluntarism amongst the youth. The

           National Youth Commission should be

           driving the process to encourage the

           youth of South Africa.



       16. Constant co-ordination between media

           and subject advisor and curriculum

           experts should be encouraged.



       17. Students should all the time be

           encouraged to watch the educational

           programmes broadcasted by SABC, and the

           schools should market the programmes

           and they should be monitored.
14 November 2001                            Page 313 of 320


       18. Television and radio must be taken as a

           medium of instruction and awareness of

           these educational programmes must be

           encouraged.



       19. There is a need for one common museum

           in all provinces which will depict

           history of South Africa including the

           apartheid era (1652 - 1959-1990 - 1994)

           and emphasis on the current history.



       20. The Committee should discuss the issue

           with the Portfolio Committee on Arts,

           Culture, Science and Technology on the

           establishment of the national museum

           specifically on the evaluation of the

           visit.



       21. There should be closer link between the

           arts and culture and education

           portfolio committees.



       22. Each department should be involved in

           each university's activities as in
14 November 2001                                Page 314 of 320


            Cuba, they are directly engaged with

            the universities and are geared at

            enhancing community needs.



        23. Universities and colleges of education

            should have physical practical work and

            production at the end.



        24. There is a need to establish one

            college in each province to drive the

            rural development and national agenda

            forward. Youth should be directly

            involved in these programmes. There is

            also a need to establish agricultural

            colleges using the unused educational

            colleges, which have proper and usable

            facilities.



   T.   Conclusion



        The delegation as well and the entire

        Portfolio Committee on Education observed

        and was impressed with, inter alia, four
14 November 2001                                Page 315 of 320


       important principles underpinning the Cuban

       education policy, namely:



       1.   Generosity, which is reflected in their

            programmes offered to other developing

            countries despite their own economic

            position and their promotion of a

            spirit of giving among the youth.



       2.   The encouragement of voluntarism among

            the people generally and the young

            people in particular, regardless of

            their own needs, reflected in their

            vacation programmes of voluntary

            services.



       3.   The importance they attach to

            agriculture as being the very essence

            of life, reflected in their programmes

            for the promotion of agriculture

            enterprise.



       4.   Their programmes are also geared

            towards building mutual respect between
14 November 2001                                Page 316 of 320


             the young and the not-so-young people,

             reflected in the numerous projects they

             have for the youth meeting their

             diverse needs and creating the

             opportunities for the potential of the

             young people to be exposed.



        All their programmes promote these values.

        The Committee strongly recommends that in

        the midst of the exploitive, ruthless and

        self-centred ethos in our country,

        reflected in the violence against children

        and women, there is a strong need for these

        important values, which are also part of

        our own concept "Ubuntu", and also

        contained in the "Manifesto on values,

        education and democracy" document of the

        Department of Education, be actively

        promoted in our education system.



   U.   List of participants



        1.   Mr R Sethlapelo, Charge d'Affaires a.i

             - Embassy of South Africa.
14 November 2001                               Page 317 of 320


       2.   Ms A Haslop, First Secretary - Embassy

            of South Africa.



       3.   Ms P Rapudi, Administrative Attache -

            Embassy of South Africa.



       4.   Ms E Segoapa, Head of Management -

            Embassy of South Africa.



       5.   Mr T Molale, First Secretary - Embassy

            of South Africa.



       6.   Prof L Campos, Prof of History, and

            staff, Museum of the Literacy Campaign.



       7.   Ms L D Carballo Gonzalez, Director and

            staff for School for the Disabled.



       8.   Mrs L C Fabelo, President of the

            Commission on Education, Science and

            Culture/People's Power, National

            Assembly and the Commission - Cuba.
14 November 2001                                Page 318 of 320


       9.   Mr J R Cucelo, Director and staff

            Republic of Angola Senior High School.



       10. Mrs M C C Tabares, Director, Nursery

            School "Semillitas del 2000".



       11. Mr T D Denis, Sub-Director and staff

            Nursery School "Semillitas del 2000".



       12. Ms O Miranda, Teacher, and staff

            Nursery School of Jesus Menendez Co-

            operatives, Cuba.



       13. Dr F Vecino Alegret, Minister of Higher

            Education, Cuba.



       14. Staff, Old Havana and Africa House.



       15. Hon I Gomez, Minister of Education,

            Cuba.



       16. Mr F A D Alfonso, Director,

            International Sport University.
14 November 2001                              Page 319 of 320


       17. Latin-American School of Medical

           Science.



       18. Mr A Benarides, Director, Social

           Workers School.



       19. The Directors and staff - CINED

           Educational Film Centre.



       20. Staff - Jose Marti Museum of

           Revolution.



       21. Hon J G Menchero, Deputy Minister of

           Foreign Relations and staff, Cuba.



       22. University Management and the Staff,

           Havana Agricultural University.



       23. Ms D Delgado, English Interpreter -

           Cuba.



       24. Mr S Castro Fernandez - Professional

           Staff, National Assembly of People's

           Power - Havana, Cuba.
14 November 2001                            Page 320 of 320


       25. All the drivers - National Assembly of

           People's Power.



       26. All the communities visited.



   Report to be considered.

				
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