14 November 2001 Page 1 of 320 WEDNESDAY, 14 NOVEMBER 2001 ____ PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY ____ The House met at 14:03. The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation. ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000. REFERRAL OF UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE CONTRIBUTIONS BILL TO PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE (Draft Resolution) The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows: 14 November 2001 Page 2 of 320 That, notwithstanding Rule 290(1), the Unemployment Insurance Contributions Bill [B 85 - 2001] - (National Assembly - sec 77), upon its introduction, be referred to the Portfolio Committee on Labour for consideration and report, the Committee to have the power to confer with the Portfolio Committee on Finance. Agreed to. ALARMING INCIDENCE OF CHILD RAPE AND ABUSE (Subject for Discussion) The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, hon members, I must, from the onset, say that I have been moved by the manner in which South Africans, regardless of gender, have spoken out and expressed outrage at the reprehensible abuse of nine month old baby Tsepang, and other children. The resounding expression of revulsion by this nation is a good sign as it shows that we are united in saying that we shall not tolerate such barbaric behaviour. 14 November 2001 Page 3 of 320 There is clearly consensus that something is seriously wrong if grandfathers, fathers, brothers and uncles sexually molest their own flesh and blood. The rape of a nine month old baby defies description in any language, and, indeed, displays moral depravity of the highest order. There is also something seriously amiss when people forget the very philosophy that has been the anchor of our communities for decades, namely the principle that any child is my child, and when a child who goes out to play at a neighbour's house is found murdered or raped. As the Government we have done what we should. The laws to fight this scourge exist and are being implemented. As I said in this House last week during Question Time, this Government has also prioritised the rights of women and children, as can be seen from the existence of the office on the rights of the child, the office on the status of women and the office on the status of disabled persons. These programmes, located in the Presidency, under the Minister in the Presidency, are succeeding in their aims of actively promoting 14 November 2001 Page 4 of 320 the rights of women, children and people with disabilities, as the most vulnerable sectors in our communities. It is because of the recognition of the importance of these sectors, that they are located in the Presidency and that there is a Minister dedicated to this crucial responsibility and ensuring that all Government programmes are aligned such that they actively promote the advancement and protection of the rights of these sectors. However, the Government alone cannot eradicate this scourge which resides within our communities. Each and every one of us has a role to play. As we all know, the apartheid history of this country left behind a legacy of a serious breakdown in the moral infrastructure of our society. Apartheid brutalised everyone: its perpetrators, its victims as well as its beneficiaries, through the migrant labour and homeland systems. Apartheid sowed the seeds for the breakdown of the institution of the family. The breakdown in the moral fibre manifests itself in many ways and in 14 November 2001 Page 5 of 320 all sectors of our society: rich and poor, urban and rural, black and white, young and old. The molestation of children and infants is a symptom of this degeneration. Among the manifestations of moral degeneration are the following: the breakdown of parental control over children in some families; the condoning of deviant behaviour; a lack of respect for authority; the present breaking of the law; lack of respect for rules and regulations; crime and corruption; abuse of alcohol and drugs; abuse of women and children; lack of respect for the next person and, indeed, for human life. Clearly, we need to do something in our respective areas of influence to restore morality and rebuild a protective environment for the most vulnerable in our country. In this vein, I would like to take this opportunity to reiterate a call I made to men in our country recently. Let us as men become positive role models who are symbols of love, empathy and caring and eradicate the stereotype that is developing that men are abusers of the most vulnerable in our 14 November 2001 Page 6 of 320 society. Historically, men were known to protect their loved ones, who felt safe in their company. These days, some men are clearly becoming ``izinswelaboya'' [animals]. This must change. In line with the theme of HIV/Aids campaigns last year and this year, let me repeat that ``Men Can Make a Difference''. Let us make this difference by leading campaigns on eradicating violence of any form against women and children. Most importantly, we need to continue addressing the question of the economic and social vulnerability of women and girls in our society, as this opens them up to abuse. Many women are economically dependent on men and this makes them reluctant to report abuses as this may lead to a loss of financial support. Therefore, we need to strengthen social support structures in our communities which make it possible for women in such situations to report abuse and leave abusive relationships, in order to protect their children and themselves. Women must have somewhere to run to. 14 November 2001 Page 7 of 320 I cannot finish my address without commending the hardworking officials in our criminal justice system who are diligently implementing laws aimed at ridding our society of sick individuals who molest women and children. Allow me also to congratulate communities, organisations and individuals who are already blowing the whistle on child abusers. The SA Democratic Teachers Union, for example, deserves mention for exposing teachers - some of them principals and deputy principals - who abuse children entrusted to their care during the day. The fact that child abusers are facing the law - and that we are today debating this matter, which has become public - shows that our communities are vigilant. That needs to be encouraged. Once again, let me repeat my call for all of us to revive in our communities the principle of ``Any child is my child''. If we hear children crying, children left alone and uncared for, or children being abused in any way, let us speak out and report the matter to the police. Let us recognise that children have rights which should be respected 14 November 2001 Page 8 of 320 by all. No one will be allowed to get away with abusing children, regardless of their position in society. It should become crystal clear to any potential child abuser or would-be rapist that this Government is determined to ensure that they face the full might of the law. We are not going to sit back and watch them destroy our future - our children. When Parliament rises on Friday we, as members of this House, should use the opportunity to spread the message of moral renewal in our constituencies and ensure that we remove hiding places for criminals who prey on children. As part of the national moral regeneration movement that we are spearheading, I will be hosting a summit early next year which will include representatives of various sectors such as political representatives, religious groups, community leaders, the church, women, the youth, the disabled, business, labour and traditional healers. This great imbizo will enable us, as South Africans, to take stock of the moral barometer of 14 November 2001 Page 9 of 320 our country and identify the critical factors that are affecting the moral health of this nation. Its objective is to establish a broad national coalition across all sectors of society, and it will chart the way forward for a mass-based moral regeneration campaign which will ensure that eventually the lines between right and wrong no longer become blurred. If we work together, we can defeat the monster and make our homes and streets safe for our children. [Applause.] Ms L M T XINGWANA: Madam Speaker, this is a great opportunity for me to speak on the alarming incidents of child rape and abuse throughout our country. A nine-month-old baby was raped and sodomised by six men who stand accused in Upington today. The baby has undergone extensive surgery and, according to doctors, she still has to undergo three more operations. She will have to carry a colostomy bag for the rest of her life. Her 16-year old mother was also a victim of statutory rape when she fell pregnant at the age of 14 years, and her great 14 November 2001 Page 10 of 320 grandmother was a victim of rape in the same house. The six men accused of raping the baby are in custody and will be appearing in court on 23 November 2001. A 14-month-old baby from Tweeling in the Free State was raped by her two uncles. She also had to undergo surgery and is now recuperating at her home. The two uncles are in custody. A three-year old girl was brutally raped by her father in Tshirolwe village in the Northern Province. She died on 29 October 2001. The father was arrested and will appear in court on 28 December 2001. A four-year old girl - also from the Northern Province - was allegedly raped by her grandmother's boyfriend. The man is also in custody and will soon be appearing in court. More reports of sexual assaults in Rouxville, a small rural town in the Free State, have once again shocked the country in the past week. A 13-year old schoolgirl from IQ School in Rouxville was raped by a 37-year old truck driver at gunpoint. She was on her way, early in the morning, to school with a 14 November 2001 Page 11 of 320 young boy of 13 years, who was able to run away and called the police. When the police found him in the forest with the little girl, he was busy raping her. He fired three shots at the police, but unfortunately for him, they were able to arrest him and he is now in custody. Four young 14-year-old girls were given a lift by two white men. They were coming from school - the Uitkoms Community school in Rouxville. The two white men drove them to a sportsground nearby and bought them liquor. When they thought that they were drunk, they raped them and thereafter offered them R50 or R20 to buy their silence. The girls went home and reported the case to the police. The two men are now in custody and will be appearing in court soon. Another 10 year old girl, also from Rouxville, was raped by a 14-year-old boy living next door. The boy is still a minor and has been given R300 bail. He has been released into the care of his parent. In Bloemfontein, at the Joe Slovo informal settlement, an eight-year-old girl was raped by a 14 November 2001 Page 12 of 320 white man. She was sent by her grandmother to go and buy something at his shop. The man will be appearing in court on 26 November 2001. More cases have been reported in the North West and the Eastern Cape, where 20 girls were raped and impregnated by their teacher. [Interjections.] The list is long and endless. It involves both black and white rapists. Rapists do not know any colour. [Interjections.] Le nto yenze kwacaca mhlophe ukuba sijongene nesihelegu esigqibe ilizwe lonke. [This has made it clear that we are faced with a tragic situation which is world-wide.] The reports, however, are encouraging, because people are breaking the culture of silence. People have confidence in this Government. Our Government is acting with speed and has caught the perpetrators of these horrible atrocities. We also want to urge the SABC not to promote the abuse of women through the violent and pornographic 14 November 2001 Page 13 of 320 films they shown to our children. [Applause.] These reduce our women to mere sex objects. We also want to object to sexist advertising, also by the SABC and various other companies, where women are used to advertise liquor, such as in the Hansa Pilsner advertisement. And again women are portrayed there as sex objects. We would like to warn all our leaders, especially the Leader of the Opposition, their silence has been deafening on this issue. [Interjections.] We want to make it very clear that this is not a racial issue, but a national issue. [Interjections.] The SPEAKER: Order! Ms L M T XINGWANA: We want to make it clear that because it is black children who are involved, it does not mean that the opposition should keep quiet. 14 November 2001 Page 14 of 320 We would like to call on all our traditional and religious leaders to take up this cause. We believe that many of them have already started, especially in Upington where they are in the forefront of mobilising our communities in support of the family of the nine-month-old baby. We want to encourage all our traditional leaders, all over the country, to take up this cause. We also want to expose the lie and the myth that sleeping with a virgin or a little child will cure one of HIV/Aids. We believe that the heroes of HIV/Aids are those men and women who have accepted their situation and status with responsibility and made it a point that they strive to protect the nation, and not spread the virus. Those are the heroes of our struggle and our war on HIV/Aids. We also want to indicate to women, as mothers, that this also has something to do with how we bring up our children. Drugs and alcohol are implicated in these atrocities. We are the ones that must stand up and expose our next-door neighbours who are involved in illegal shebeens and 14 November 2001 Page 15 of 320 also sell drugs; even to little children. We are the ones that must stand up and ensure that we bring up our children, both boys and girls, and make sure that we inculcate in them respect and love for one another. [Applause.] I think it is especially important that we teach our boys to respect their sisters, and from there to respect girls, women as well as human life. We also want to appeal to HIV/Aids activists to go out and make sure that our people are informed and educated about HIV/Aids. We all know that there is no cure for HIV/Aids at this point in time. Therefore, we need to go out and inform our people about this. We also want to ask our traditional healers to go out and educate the public about the fact that there is no cure for HIV/Aids and that abusing women and raping children is not going to cure anybody. We commend Kimberley Hospital and its doctors who went out to expose this lie. We also commend the traditional healer from Kimberley, Mashia, who also stated publicly that there is no cure for HIV/Aids 14 November 2001 Page 16 of 320 and that sleeping with virgins and little children will not help to cure this disease. I would like, therefore, to add to what the hon the Deputy President has said, that this is an important issue facing the nation. We commend the Deputy President for organising a summit or imbizo for early next year to address this issue. We also urge the leaders of the opposition parties to support this cause and to support the nation. We would like to reiterate the fact that this debate must be supported by all of us. It must be firmly supported, particularly in the light of the need for abhorrent acts of child rape and abuse to be brought forth for serious discussion and for us to make sure that the perpetrators are apprehended. We want to make sure that no bail is given to these alleged rapists. We do not understand how grandfathers, especially a sixty-six year old grandfather, can be a party to these atrocities. We, therefore, want to call on the nation as a whole, that is mothers, fathers and parents, to go out and say: Enough is enough. Let us work together 14 November 2001 Page 17 of 320 for the good of South Africa and for the future of our children. [Applause.] The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, I want to remind you that the issue that we are debating is not one about black or white. [Applause.] No community in South Africa is immune. No child is immune from what is going on. [Interjections.] Equally, the perpetrators are also black and white. So please let us remember this. We are trying to address this not as the Government or the opposition or party this or party that. We are trying to come together as a nation to expose a problem and collectively address it. So, I appeal to you to think of the children we are talking about. [Applause.] Adv P S SWART: Madam Speaker, this is not a political issue. I wish to thank the hon the Deputy President for his message in particular. I requested this debate for one purpose only. [Interjections.] Yes, hon member, I requested this debate to enable Parliament, as a unit that is constituted by our political leaders and Cabinet in particular, to face South Africa, look our nation 14 November 2001 Page 18 of 320 in the eye and acknowledge our obligation to do whatever it will take to end this ongoing destruction of the lives of our children. Apart from murder, the rape of an innocent child is the most hellish manifestation of a society that is rotten to the core. When we note with horror the rape of babies as young as nine months these deeds are often nothing less than extended death sentences to the victims. I also have some personal obligations. I stand here as a man and on behalf of all decent men, today, I apologise to our mothers and children for these acts done by demons disguised as men. For no decent man would commit such atrocities. I could call them animals, but that would demean animals. The true yardstick for the moral values of a society is the way in which it treats its children. We fail miserably. A decent society cherishes and respects its children. Ek staan ook hier as 'n eggenoot en vader van twee dogters. Toe God in Sy wysheid my 'n vrou en twee dogters geskenk het, het ek daarmee saam baie 14 November 2001 Page 19 of 320 spesifieke verpligtings ontvang. Behalwe om hulle lief te hê, getrou te wees en te respekteer is daar 'n besondere verpligting om hulle te alle tye met alles wat ek in my het te beskerm, en dit is wat my hartseer maak. In 'n pragtige land met pragtige mense behoort ons lewens gevul te wees met die vreugde van liefde en geluk, maar die teendeel is waar. Daagliks vrees ek vir die veiligheid van my dierbares. Wanneer ons toelaat dat nie alleen ons strate nie, maar dikwels ook ons huise, plekke van verskrikking vir ons kinders word, neem ons hulle kindwees weg, die grootste onreg wat volwassenes kan pleeg. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.) [I also stand here as a husband and father of two daughters. When God in His wisdom granted me a wife and two children, I received very specific obligations along with them. Apart from loving them, being faithful to and respecting them, there is a particular obligation at all times to protect them with all I have within me, and this is what makes me so sad. 14 November 2001 Page 20 of 320 In a beautiful country with beautiful people our lives ought to be filled with the joy of love and happiness, but the opposite is true. I fear daily for the safety of my loved ones. When we allow not only our streets, but often also our homes, to become places of terror for our children, we deprive them of their childhood, the biggest injustice adults can commit.] However, being a parliamentarian and the National Assembly being the forum for today's debate, my particular obligation is as such. Although it may be true that our first line of both offence and defence in this fight are the Minister of Safety and Security and the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development it would also be a foolish assumption. These horrific crimes go far beyond those particular line functions and touch all aspects of society. Today I cannot underline enough the necessity for an integrated approach to successfully wage this war against these demon rapists. 14 November 2001 Page 21 of 320 Ons kan die oortreders vang, en ek bring hulde aan ons toegewyde polisie; ons kan hulle voor ons howe bring en lewenslange vonnisse oplê, wat ons howe in die meeste gevalle doen en waarvoor ek dankbaar is, maar permanente sukses sal afhang van die herstel van die morele basis van ons samelewing. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.) [We can apprehend the offenders, and I pay tribute to our dedicated police; we can bring them before our courts and hand down life sentences, which our courts do in most cases and for which I am grateful, but lasting success will depend on our restoring the moral fibre of our society.] To repair this, we need the overall assistance of NGOs, welfare organisations and churches. Frankly, when I look at the statistics, it is difficult to accept the amounts of money from the proceeds of the lotto going to sports organisations which, in a very real way, disempower these role-players. Wanneer ek van 'n geïntegreerde aanslag praat, verwys ek nie alleen na onderwys waar ons kinders 14 November 2001 Page 22 of 320 op hulle regte gewys word nie, maar ook die opvoeding van die gemeenskap in geheel - ook volwassenes - ten opsigte van die regte van kinders en ons verantwoordelikheid om hulle te respekteer en te beskerm. My kollega die agb lid Cupido sal later in die debat aandag gee aan die maatskaplike verantwoordelikhede in ons gemeenskap. Wanneer ek na justisie verwys, is daar ook 'n ander verantwoordelikheid. Dit is die manier waarop hierdie jong slagoffers gehanteer word wanneer hulle sake voorkom. Die DA is geboekstaaf dat ons reeds jare lank pleit vir die daarstelling van voldoende kinderhowe asook geriewe om slagoffers te beskerm wanneer getuienis gelewer word. My kollega die agb lid Waters sal daarna verwys. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.) [When I speak of an integrated onslaught, I do not only refer to education, where our children are informed of their rights, but also to the education the community as a whole - adults included - regarding childrens' rights and our responsibility to respect and protect them. Later on in the debate 14 November 2001 Page 23 of 320 my colleague the hon member Cupido will deal with the social responsibilities in our community. When I refer to justice, there is another responsibility as well. It is the way in which these young victims are treated when their cases come up for trial. The DA is on record as having advocated for years the establishment of sufficient children's courts, as well as facilities to protect victims when evidence is being given. My colleague the hon member Waters will be referring to this.] During the year 2000, 21 438 cases of rape and attempted rape against children were reported. Only 1 797 or 8,38% of these resulted in convictions. Surely, this must indicate something very wrong within the system. It is my contention that the problem is the way in which these innocent victims, who often do not understand what happened to them, are handled by the police and justice department during the investigations and court cases. I am not criticising. 14 November 2001 Page 24 of 320 While the first line of action lies in particular with our Child Protection and Sexual Offences Units, it is indeed disturbing that we only have 30 Child Protection Units in the whole country, with only 368 police officers deployed out of a complement of 504. When we note the occurrence of rapes of minor children, with more than 31 000 cases reported in the past 18 months, this does not make sense. Today, I call on the Minister of Safety and Security to place at least one dedicated police officer at each and every police station to see to the protection of our children. Such a person should be well versed not only in police skills but also in specialised training to cover an understanding of the development and maturity of the child; a child's response to trauma; communication with a child, including interviewing and listening skills; ability to offer expert assistance to a traumatised child and, at least, some medical knowledge. 14 November 2001 Page 25 of 320 These skills should also be available at our courts. Whilst restoring the moral fabric of our society, which our hon Deputy President called for, the only interim deterrent to perpetrators of these crimes will be the prescribed life sentence. With the above in place we will see more convictions. Our children are the building blocks of the future of this country. Let us treat them with compassion, and understand our need to respect and protect them at all times, and ensure them a happy and secure childhood. Kom ons, as Parlement oor politieke grense heen, neem hande met mekaar en die samelewing daar buite. Die samelewing daar buite is 'n onmisbare deelnemer in die herstel van hierdie probleem in ons gemeenskap. Kom ons bou 'n vreedsame en kommervrye gemeenskap in 'n land wat mooi is en waar ons gelukkig kan wees, maar kom ons as Parlement wys ook met dade en nie alleen met woorde nie, dat hierdie tipe oortredings nie in hierdie mooi land van ons geduld sal word nie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.) 14 November 2001 Page 26 of 320 [Let us, as Parliament across political barriers, join hands with each other and with society out there. Society out there is an essential participant in the correction of this problem in our community. Let us build a peaceful and carefree community in a country that is beautiful and where we can be happy, but let us as Parliament show by way of deeds, and not only with words, that this type of offence will not be tolerated in this beautiful country of ours. [Applause.]] Mnu V B NDLOVU: Somlomo, mhlonishwa Sekela- Mongameli, bahlonishwa oNgqongqoshe, malungu ahloniphekile ale Ndlu, kukhona abantu abagula ngamakhanda, abacabanga ukuthi ukudlwengula izingane kungukuvimbela iNgculazi noma ukungenwa yisifo seNgculazi. Ngithi kumhlonishwa uSekela-Mongameli singakhuluma size sifike noma kuphi kodwa uma umuntu ehlanya, usuke ehlanya nje, angefaniswe nomunye umuntu. Masizame ukukhuluma nalaba abasacabanga ukukwenza lokho ukuze bazi ukuthi uma bekwenza lokho, kuyinto engabuyiseli futhi akwakhi, kube kungeke kumsize 14 November 2001 Page 27 of 320 lowo muntu oguliswa yileso sifo. Ngeke abe ngcono, kunalokho uyogula aze afe kunokuthi abe ngcono. Okwesibili, indaba enkulu manje ukuthi - angazi noma yingoba sibhidlikelwa yimizi yethu yini emakhaya - kuyabonakala ukuthi abanye abazali kithina abakwazi ukuzibheka kahle izingane zabo. Baye baze bahambe nazo baye lapho bephuza khona, badle amanzi amponjwana nazo. Ngithi-ke mina uma singakakukhulumi lokho njengabantu izinto ngeke zihambe kahle. Umuntu nomuntu ozele ingane akayiphathe njengoba naye ayephethwe unina. Kuzoba ngcono uma abazali bekwazi lokho. Kodwa, uma abazali bezokhohlwa ukuthi lezi zingane abazizele ngezabo, baphilise okwenyoka yona ezala maqedane ife, kuyingozi lokho ngoba kusho ukuthi lezi zingane ezikhulayo nezizalwayo namhlanje ngeke zibe nalo ikusasa. Ngakho-ke, uma singenabo abazali, masakhe abazali ukuze thina esilapha eNdlini sihole abantu abaphilileyo, hhayi abagula emakhanda futhi abangakwazi ukuzala izingane bazifukamele. Kukhulunywa ngamadoda lapha, kuthiwa yiwo adlwengula izingane. Mina ngithi cha, hhayi, 14 November 2001 Page 28 of 320 ngiyaphika impela. Ngiyindoda ngempela mina kodwa angizange ngidlwengule noyedwa umuntu. Ngakho makungashiwo ukuthi amadoda lawo. [Ihlombe.] Amalungu akhona lapha ayiNdlu ehloniphekile, kanti kukhona namadoda ahloniphekile ngaphandle. Ngakho- ke ukusetshenziswa kwaleli gama kuthiwa ``la madoda'' kuze kuthiwe ngamadoda wonke abukeka engemahle emhlabeni ngoba ayadlwengula, kuyigama elibi lelo. Akushiwo ukuthi yilezi zigebengu, imigulukudu nezigelekeqe okuyizona ezenza lokho ukuze kubhekwane nazo. Kufuneka kuyekwe ukuthi kukhonjwe noma ubani. Umhlonishwa uSekela-Mongameli ngeke akuvuma nje ukuthi kuthiwe, njengedoda, naye- ke uyabandakanywa nalabo. Mina-ke, njengendoda, cha angikuvumi impela lokho. Ngakho mina ngithi laba bantu abayeke ukuthi ngamadoda. Abathi yilezi zigebengu, imigodoyi, ukuze amaphoyisa abhekane nezigebengu nemigodoyi, angavimbeli wonke amadoda nanjengathi nje, athembekile. Uma ngikhuluma ngendoda, ngikhuluma ngendoda ezaziyo ukuthi iyindoda. Ngithi kumhlonishwa uSekela-Mongameli mina-ke uma ngikhuluma ngendoda ngiyehlukanisa. Kukhona abantu besilisa bese kuba 14 November 2001 Page 29 of 320 khona amadoda. Lapha-ke ngikhuluma ngamadoda, amadoda aziyo ukuthi ekhaya kuyadliwa, njengoba kade esho nje umhlonishwa uSekela-Mongameli ethi kufukanyelwa izingane futhi kufukanyelwe wonke umuzi ekhaya. Babhekelwa bonke abantu ukuthi baphephile. Uma kukhona umnumzane ekhaya, kukhona indoda, kufanele kwaziwe ukuthi singethintwe muntu ngoba kukhona umnumzane, kukhona indoda. Kodwa uma sikhuluma ngalaba bantu besilisa-ke, yibo-ke laba esikhuluma ngabo namhlanje. Bangabantu abangazi lutho olunye lokufukamela umndeni nezingane futhi bangabantu abazi ukuthi izingane azilutho. Bangaphezu kwegama elithi ``izilwane.'' Angifuni mina babizwe ngezilwane ngoba ngabe sidlala ngazo izilwane. Izilwane zihlonipha kabi, azikwenzi lokhu esikhuluma ngakho. Ngakho-ke akufuneki ukuthi sifanise abantu abagangayo, imigulukudu nezigelekeqe, siyifanise nezilwane ngoba izilwane zingcono kakhulu. Uma zizihlalele laphaya ehlathini, zizihlalela kahle nje kungabikho lutho, ngaphandle-ke uma umuntu esuka eyodlala ngazo-ke bese nazo zimdlala. 14 November 2001 Page 30 of 320 Mina ngiyahlupheka ngoba mhlawumbe laba bantu esikhuluma ngabo abakwazi ukushela. Ukushela umuntu kuyinto enhle kabi. Kuyinto enhle kabi nje ukuvuma komuntu athi: ngiyakuthanda sibanibani. [Uhleko.] Kodwa laba bantu esikhuluma ngabo lapha kusho ukuthi abakwazi lokho. Inkinga enkulu uma umuntu engakwazi ukuxoxa nomunye umuntu ongaphesheya kwakhe ngoba kusho ukuthi lowo muntu unenkinga yokuphila nabantu. Manje lowo muntu uyovalelwaphi- ke ngoba nomhlonishwa uSkosana uzothi amajele akhe agcwele? Inkinga ekhona ukuthi sinabantu abangakwazi ukubhekana nabanye abantu, abangakwazi ukuxoxa kahle nabo. Yileyo nkinga esinayo lapha. Umuntu uma edlwengula ingane enezinyanga eziyisishiyagalombili usuke esho ukuthini ngempela? Kusho ukuthini ngempela lokho ngoba ayikwazi ukukhuluma, ayikwazi kwenza lutho? Uma-ke manje singeke sikwazi ukuhlala nabanye abanumzane ngoba kukhona izingane ezigaqayo lapho, osekuzodingeka zibalekiswe lezo zingane ngoba kufike thina, hhawu, kuyinto embi kabi leyo. Kuyinto embi engamukeleki, engafuneki futhi ewubunuku obuphindwe kaningi. 14 November 2001 Page 31 of 320 Ngithi-ke mina kumhlonishwa uSekela-Mongameli masingabi ngabantu besilisa, njengoba bengishilo ukuthi kukhona umehluko phakathi kwabantu besilisa namadoda. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.) [Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Speaker, Deputy President, Ministers and hon members of this House, there are people who are psychologically disturbed and who think that raping babies will protect them from contracting Aids. I would like to say to the Deputy President that we can talk endlessly about this but the fact remains that if one is mad, one is simply mad, and cannot be compared with normal people. We should try to speak to people who are planning to do this, so that they will know that if they do it, it will be of no use because it does not help to protect the person who is infected with the disease. He will not recover, instead he will ail until he dies. Secondly, the big issue is that I do not know whether it is because our homes are breaking down. It seems as if some parents are unable to look 14 November 2001 Page 32 of 320 after their children at home. Sometimes they go with their children to where they drink and drink with them. What I am saying is that if we do not discuss these things as human beings, things will not go well. Everyone with a child must treat it in the way that he or she was treated by his or her mother. It would be better if parents understood that. It will be dangerous if parents forget that the children that they have given birth to are theirs, and start behaving like a snake which dies after giving birth. That will mean that those growing children and babies that are being born will not have a future. Therefore, if we do not have parents, let us build parents so that we in this House lead healthy people, not people who are mad and fail to look after their children. We are talking about men here. It is said that they are the ones who rape children. I say no, I disagree. I am a man but I have never raped anyone. Therefore, it must not be said that those are men. [Applause.] Hon members here constitute an honourable House, and there are honourable men outside. Therefore, the use of the words "these 14 November 2001 Page 33 of 320 men" which causes people in the world to look at men in a bad light, is not suitable for the rapists. It must be said that people who commit these atrocities are these criminals and gangsters so that we can deal with them. People should stop pointing fingers at anyone. The hon Deputy President will not like the idea that as a man he is involved in doing these things. I as a man do not agree. Therefore, I say they should stop saying that "men are the ones who commit these crimes". They must say crimes are committed by "these criminals, these dogs" so that police will deal with them, and let honourable men like me go. When I talk about a man I am talking about someone who knows himself that he is a man. To the Deputy President I say I am making a distinction here. We have males and men. Here I am talking about men, men who know that people at home need food, as the Deputy President has said that children need to be protected as well as the whole family at home. A man ensures that all people in the family are okay. If there is a man in the family, members of the 14 November 2001 Page 34 of 320 family know that they will not be touched by anyone because there is a man in the house. Now these males that we are discussing today, do not know anything about protecting a family and children and they are the people who believe that children are nothing. They are far beneath the word "animals". I do not want us to call them animals because we will be soiling animals. Animals have respect, they do not do what we are talking about here. Therefore, we should not liken criminals and gangsters to animals because animals are far better than they. When they are in the forest, they stay there peacefully, except if one goes to them and teases them, then they respond the same way. I am worried because I am thinking that maybe these people that we are talking about here are unable to declare their love for a woman. Declaring one's love for a woman is a very good thing. It is a good thing when someone accepts that declaration and says: I love you, so and so. [Laughter.] It means that the people that we are discussing here do not know that. It is a big problem if a person cannot 14 November 2001 Page 35 of 320 talk to someone sitting opposite him, it means that that person has a problem communicating with other human beings. Where are we going to lock up that person because even the hon Skosana will say his prisons are full? The problem that we have is that we have people who cannot live well with others, and who cannot even talk well to other people. That is the problem we have here. If a person rapes an eight-month-old baby, what does that person really mean? Is it because a baby cannot talk? It cannot do anything? Now if we cannot stay with other people just because there are crawling babies in that place, they should be hidden just because we have arrived, Hawu! That is a very bad thing! It is bad and unacceptable. It is more that dirty. I would like to say to the hon Deputy President that we should not have males, as I have said that there is a difference between males and men.] Let us stand up as men. Let us be real men. I think that we must preach that those people who are 14 November 2001 Page 36 of 320 raping and molesting children and their wives must know that they do not belong to the category of men. Therefore, they must not be called men. They should be called something else. Those who are developing languages must start looking for a word to describe these people. [Applause.] It is very important that we, as men, must protect ourselves because we are not in the category of rapists. Therefore, we must not be lumped together with these animals. It will help us, therefore, to know that all of us agree that whatever we do as Government, structures of society and members of the public, we should help the police to apprehend whoever is still harbouring the criminals. [Applause.] Mr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD: Madam Speaker, the Sowetan of 5 November 2001 reports as follows, and I quote: Shocking reports of the violation of children dominated the media last week. A nine-month-old baby was raped by six men at Upington. A 14- month-old baby was raped at Tweeling last Tuesday. A three-year- old girl was treated in 14 November 2001 Page 37 of 320 hospital after being raped, allegedly by her grandfather. A man appeared in the Protea Magistrate's Court for raping a six-year-old girl. A four-year-old girl died after she was allegedly raped in the Northern Province last week. A two-year-old girl was allegedly raped by her father three days before her mother, who had Aids, died of illnesses related to the disease in Dobsonville. A 12-year-old girl tested HIV- positive a year after she was allegedly raped by her stepfather. As the political fathers and mothers of the nation, we need to ask ourselves whether this is the kind of freedom we envisaged for our children when it was announced that the South African people were free at last - free with the Constitution and the Bill of Rights which afford our children the opportunity to grow up in a protected, normal and open society. In order to take care of the children of this country, the Child Care Amendment Act, Act 13 of 1999, came into operation on 1 January 2000. The 14 November 2001 Page 38 of 320 main purpose of the amendments was to provide for the establishment of secure care facilities and for the prohibition of the sexual exploitation of children. The Minister of Social Development, together with the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development, requested the SA Law Commission to appoint a project committee to review the Child Care Act and draft comprehensive child care legislation compatible with the provisions of the South African Constitution, the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and the African Charter on the Rights and Welfare of the Child. Let us just look at a few aspects contained in these documents. Firstly, they recognise that a child occupies a unique and privileged position in African society and that for the full and harmonious development of its personality, the child should grow up in a family environment, and in an atmosphere of happiness, love and understanding. Secondly, it recognises that the child, due to the needs of his physical and mental development, requires particular care with regard 14 November 2001 Page 39 of 320 to health, physical, mental, moral and social development. It also recognises that the child requires legal protection in conditions of freedom, dignity and security. States which are party to the African Charter are to adopt specific legislative, administrative, social and educational measures to protect the child from all forms of torture, inhuman or degrading treatment and especially physical or mental injury or abuse, neglect and maltreatment, including sexual abuse, while in the care of its parents. Protective measures must include effective procedures for the establishment of special monitoring units to provide the necessary support for the child and those caring for it as well as other forms of prevention, treatment and follow-up of instances of child abuse and neglect. Participants to the charter should take appropriate measures to eliminate harmful social and cultural practices that affect the welfare, dignity and normal growth and development of the child, especially those customs and practices that are 14 November 2001 Page 40 of 320 prejudicial to the health or life of the child, and those that are discriminatory to the child on the grounds of sex and other status. In die lig van die 31 780 gevalle van kinderverkragting gedurende die afgelope 18 maande, doen die Nuwe NP 'n beroep op godsdienstige groepe, burgerlike organisasies, nie-regeringsorganisasies en gemeenskapsgebaseerde organisasies om die Regering te steun in sy poging om dié misdade te beveg. Ons meen dat spesiale howe vir seksuele misdrywe met multidissiplinêre steunsentrums uitgebrei behoort te word om slagoffers van seksuele misdrywe te bemagtig. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.) [In the light of the 31 780 cases of child rape during the past 18 months, the New NP appeals to religious groups, civic organisations, non- governmental organisations and community-based organisations to support the Government in its effort to combat these crimes. 14 November 2001 Page 41 of 320 We feel that special courts for sexual offences must be extended by means of multidisciplinary support centres to empower victims of sexual abuse.] In conclusion, if we say we believe in the future of our country, it also implies that we believe in our duty to look after and care for the future of our country, namely our children. Let us not make this the responsibility of other people. Let us all become part of this process. [Applause.] Miss O N MNDENDE: Madam Speaker, Deputy President, and hon members, our society views with concern the increasing incidents of child rape which have come to plague our country. It is indicative of a sick society. An animal's natural instinct is to protect its offspring. It is therefore incomprehensible and alarming when humans project themselves as a species that preys on its own progeny. These twisted monsters are excited by the helpless pleas, cries, agonised gasps and uncomprehending, 14 November 2001 Page 42 of 320 horrified stares of their offspring victims whom they violate with perverted impunity. Perhaps these monsters, with their twisted minds, think that when a child is crying or gasping, it is giggling or laughing. We have a responsibility to deal with these psychopaths. It is a matter of serious concern that in this House our criminal justice system is apparently impotent to combat this and many other crimes. The characterisation of our criminal justice system as ineffective is not intended to score cheap party- political points. It is a mother's agonised appeal to our natural instincts of self-preservation as a people, to take up our responsibilities and create a normal and safe environment for our children. I am perturbed at the erosion of decency and the perceptible decline of the moral fibre of the South African society. This social degeneration does not happen in a vacuum. It underpins the collapse of social, economic, cultural and religious systems that sustain a society. We as leaders, spokespersons and role-models in our diverse 14 November 2001 Page 43 of 320 societies should stand up and fight against this. Society demands of us to account for our inability to give them a safe environment. It is not enough to report these deeds in the media and then lament about them in our drawing rooms and erudite seminars. We have to introduce visible and effective measures to curtail brutality and depravity. It is now clear that the intellectual refinement and sophistication that informed the drafting of our Bill or Rights, did not foresee a situation where our society would have such an audacious influence. Our law enforcement agencies and criminal justice system were never designed to deal with these miscreants and therefore they are at a loss as to how they should handle them. Radical situations call for radical thought and solutions. Let us begin to think likewise. Criminals terrorise us because they know they will get away with it. They know that we are concerned about their human rights, which entitles them to VIP status in prisons and early parole. People on 14 November 2001 Page 44 of 320 the ground demand the death penalty. Let us revisit this deterrent by way of a referendum. [Applause.] Mrs M P COETZEE-KASPER: Ke a leboha Mme Speaker le Motlatsa Presidente, ha ke fumane sebaka puisanong ena ya masisa-pelo kajeno. Masisa-pelo a peto ya bomme le, holoholo, masea le bana. [Thank you, Madam Speaker and Deputy President, for the opportunity I have to speak in this very emotional debate on the heart breaking situation where women, and more especially babies and children, are being raped.] Ons is kwaad. Ons is seer en ons kan nie verstaan hoe enige mens dit aan 'n kleine kindjie kan doen, wat daardie mans in Upington voorverlede naweek gedoen het nie. Dit is nie die enigste voorval van sy soort nie. Ek weet van nog twee klein kindertjies wat in my provinsie verkrag is, al het dit nie die koerante gehaal nie. So is daar nog baie sulke gevalle. Hoe moet 'n mens dit verstaan? In die eerste plek moet ons onthou dat ons maar onlangs uit 'n bestel 14 November 2001 Page 45 of 320 gekom het wat mense as gevolg van hul kleur as niks gereken het nie. Ons het maar eers in 1995 begin om te probeer om op alle vlakke in ons samelewing die konsep van menseregte te laat posvat. Met menseregte so 'n jong begrip is ons nog ver daarvandaan om werklik die regte van vroue en kinders te laat geld. In die tweede plek moet ons onthou dat mishandeling van kinders meer dikwels voorkom in omstandighede van haglike armoede. Daarmee wil ons nie voorgee dat dit net onder sulke omstandighede voorkom nie, maar maatskaplike ontbering dra daartoe by dat ons mense die waarde van 'n kind se lewe misken. Ons het in Suid-Afrika goeie wette om te verseker dat kinders en vroue teen geweld beskerm word. Die Wet op Huishoudelike Geweld bied hierdie tipe beskerming en die wet is 'n groot vooruitgang op die ou gesinswetgewing wat ons uit die vorige bestel geërf het. In die wet word die seksuele misbruik van kinders eerstens beskryf as geweld. Ons moet hierdie boodskap duidelik uitstuur. Verder sê die wet dat seksuele misbruik beteken dat mens 14 November 2001 Page 46 of 320 die regte van daardie kind skend en die Grondwet sê dat elke kind het die reg dat sy of haar liggaam gerespekteer moet word. Dit moet die tweede deel van ons boodskap wees. Verder praat die wet van mishandeling op verskillende vlakke: emosioneel, liggaamlik, intimidasie en ekonomies. Dit beteken ook dat waar die kind die basiese lewensmiddele ontsê word, ons ook moet aandag gee aan die daaglikse behoeftes van ons kinders. Die Suid-Afrikaanse Regskommissie is ook op die oomblik besig met die herskryf van kinderwetgewing. In daardie nuwe wet moet ons seker maak dat kinders se regte die uitgangspunt is, sodat ons nie net op probleme reageer nie, maar dat ons hele manier van dink oor die voorkoming en beskerming van ons kinders teen geweld verander. Ons moet ook sorg dat daar dienste is waardeur die kinders se reg om in 'n gesonde omgewing groot te word en om nie skade berokken te word nie, bevorder sal word. Soos ander sprekers ookal aangedui het, moet ons sorg dat die strawwe wat in ons wette voorgeskryf word, behoorlik toegepas word. Ek dink ons moet voortgaan met ons veldtogte om mense bewus te maak van 14 November 2001 Page 47 of 320 kinders se regte. Vroue moet hul regte ken. Kinders moet hul regte ken. Mans moet hierdie regte ken en dit respekteer. Ons in die gemeenskap moet ook begin beheer oorneem oor hoeveel geweld ons toelaat. Ek weet die mense sê hulle kan nie in ander mense se huishoudelike probleme inmeng nie. Ek gee toe dat dit ook te ver gevoer kan word. Nou vra ek saam met die Adjunkpresident: Wat het geword van ons ubuntu? Wanneer gaan ons weer die kinders in ons gemeenskappe beskou as ons eie kinders? As al die kinders in die gemeenskap ook myne is, dan het ek ook die verantwoordelik om hulle te beskerm. Ons moet ook in die skole die boodskap deurstuur, sodat kinders oral weet hoe om nee te sê. Kinders moet weet dat as hulle mishandel word, hulle vir iemand daarvan kan vertel. Iemand wat na hulle sal luister. Ons moet ook onderwysers in staat stel om patrone van mishandeling te herken en hulle in staat stel om iets daaraan te kan doen. Dit is baie belangrik, want dikwels sien 'n onderwyser of predikant in die gemeenskap dat 'n kind mishandel word, maar hulle voel hul hande is afgekap. Dit is noodsaaklik dat ons mense het 14 November 2001 Page 48 of 320 waarnatoe hulle kan gaan om die mishandeling van kinders aan te meld. Daarvoor het ons maatskaplike dienste nodig, maar ons weet dat die meeste klein dorpies nie toegang het tot sulke dienste nie. Ons moet geld bewillig om maatskaplike dienste wat deur vrywillige organisasies en deur kerke bedryf word, te ondersteun. Daarom moet ons ook seker maak, dat die instansies wat die regering daargestel het om fondse te bewillig, goed funksioneer. Daar is dikwels fondse beskikbaar, maar die aansoekvorms is so ingewikkeld en die prosedure so moeilik dat die organisasies - veral vir die kleineres in ons agtergeblewe gemeenskappe - sukkel om fondse te bekom. Daar is genoeg mense wat bereid is om te werk. Ons moet dit nie vir hulle onnodig moeilik maak nie. Ek het 'n klein gediggie hier geskryf: Die gehuil, gekreun van 'n kind deur geweld Daar is 'n gejaag na geld Mag en verdrukking in ons gemeenskap Ek het nie gevra om gebore te word nie Ek het nie gevra vir mishandeling nie Waarom doen jy dit aan my, Pa? Ma? Suster? Broer? Tannie? Oom en my bure? 14 November 2001 Page 49 of 320 Ek vra net liefde aandag en beskerming van almal As jy dit nie vir my kan gee nie Waar moet ek dit kry? Moet my nie seermaak nie Want ek kan nie sê waar dit seer is nie Moet my nie verkoop Vir drank of geld nie Beskerm my teen alle geweld. Jesus het my lief As jy my nie liefhet nie Laat ek liefde, aandag en beskerming By iemand wat oorloop van goeie dade Kerke en skole Dis julle kinders ook Beskerm hulle teen die uitheemse geweld Wat ons kinders, vroue en oumense tref. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.) [We are angry. We are hurt and we cannot understand how anyone can do to a small child what those men in Upington did the weekend before last. This is not the only incident of its kind. I am aware of 14 November 2001 Page 50 of 320 two more small children who were raped in my province, even though it was not reported in the newspapers. There are many such incidents. How is one to understand this? In the first place, we must remember that we only recently emerged from a dispensation in which people counted for nothing as a result of their colour. We only began in 1995 to attempt to establish the concept of human rights at all levels in our society. With human rights being such a young concept we are still very far from really asserting the rights of women and children. In the second place we must remember that the abuse of children occurs more often in circumstances of desperate poverty. In saying that we do not want to suggest that it only occurs under such circumstances, but social deprivation does contribute to our people undervaluing a child's life. We have good laws in South Africa to ensure that children and women are protected against violence. 14 November 2001 Page 51 of 320 The Domestic Violence Act offers this kind of protection and the Act is a great improvement on the old family legislation which we inherited from the previous dispensation. In the Act the sexual abuse of children is firstly described as violence. We must convey this message clearly. Furthermore, the Act says that sexual abuse means that one is violating the rights of that child and the Constitution says that every child has the right to have his or her body respected. That must be the second part of our message. The Act further talks about abuse at various levels: emotional, physical, economic; and intimidation. This also means that where the child is deprived of basic sustenance, we must also give attention to the daily needs of our children. The South African Law Commission is also currently redrafting child legislation. In that new Act we must ensure that children's rights are the point of departure, so that we do not only respond to problems, but that our whole way of thinking about the prevention of and protection from violence of our children changes. We must also ensure that 14 November 2001 Page 52 of 320 there are services by way of which the children's right to grow up in a healthy environment and not to be injured, will be promoted. As other speakers have also indicated, we must see to it that the penalties prescribed in our laws are properly implemented. I think we must continue with our campaigns to make people aware of children's rights. Women must know their rights. Children must know their rights. Men must know these rights and respect them. We in the community must also begin taking control over the amount of violence we allow. I know that people say they cannot interfere in other people's domestic problems. I will concede that this can also be taken too far. Now, together with the Deputy President, I ask: What has become of our ubuntu? When are we once again going to consider the children in our communities as our own children? If all the children in the community are also mine, then I also have the responsibility to protect them. We must also convey the message in the schools, so that children everywhere know how to say no. Children must know that if they are abused, they 14 November 2001 Page 53 of 320 can tell someone about it. Someone who will listen to them. We must also enable teachers to recognise patterns of abuse and enable them to do something about it. This is very important, because often a teacher or minister in the community sees that a child is being abused, but they feel that their hands are tied. It is essential that we have people who they can go to to report the abuse of children. For that we need social services, but we know that most of the small towns do not have access to such services. We must vote money to support social services run by volunteer organisations and by churches. For that reason we must also ensure that the institutions which the Government has put in place to allocate funds are functioning well. Often funding is available, but the application forms are so complicated and the procedure so difficult that the organisations - particularly the smaller ones in our disadvantaged communities - struggle to obtain funding. There are enough people who are prepared to work. We must not make it unnecessarily difficult for them. I have a short poem here: Die gehuil, gekreun van 'n kind deur geweld 14 November 2001 Page 54 of 320 Daar is 'n gejaag na geld Mag en verdrukking in ons gemeenskap Ek het nie gevra om gebore te word nie Ek het nie gevra vir mishandeling nie Waarom doen jy dit aan my, Pa? Ma? Suster? Broer? Tannie? Oom en my bure? Ek vra net liefde aandag en beskerming van almal As jy dit nie vir my kan geen nie Waar moet ek dit kry? Moet my nie seermaak nie Want ek kan nie sê waar dit seer is nie Moet my nie verkoop Vir drank of geld nie Beskerm my teen alle geweld. Jesus het my lief As jy nie liefhet nie Laat ek liefde, aandag en beskerming By iemand wat oorloop van goeie dade Kerke en skole Dis julle kinders ook Beskerm hulle teen die uitheemse geweld Wat ons kinders, vroue en oumense tref. 14 November 2001 Page 55 of 320 [Applause.]] Rev K R J MESHOE: Madam Speaker, when South Africa was called the rape capital of the world a few years ago, the rape of children was not a major issue, but today, in some areas, it seems more children are being raped than adults. Young girls are no longer safe in their own homes, communities and even in their schools. It is unacceptable that fathers rape their own daughters, grandsons rape their grandmothers, uncles rape their nieces, and school teachers and principals rape their students in classrooms and offices. The rape of a nine-month-old baby by six men in the Northern Cape brought shame to the nation of South Africa. To remedy the situation, we have to find out what is wrong with such men. We have to find out what the contributory factors are and then take bold and decisive action against the perpetrators of such heinous crimes. I believe this Parliament made a mistake by legalising pornography, which inflames 14 November 2001 Page 56 of 320 the passion and lust of men. For as long as we have so much pornography in this country, including on television, the incidents of rape of children will keep on increasing. Pornography is the theory but rape is the action. An eleven-year-old child who rapes his baby cousin must have seen this being done somewhere before, either on television or in pornographic literature. This kind of abuse is learned behaviour, and not just something that they can make up in their own heads. Rapists and criminals in general do not fear the soft arm of the law. Men who rape children should lose their right to life. The six men who raped the innocent nine-month-old baby must be sentenced to death. When this Parliament amends the Constitution early next year to allow members of Parliament to cross the floor without losing their seats, the ACDP will also call for amendments to sections that outlaw the death penalty because rapists do not respect women's and children's rights. Government and courts should not respect their right to life. 14 November 2001 Page 57 of 320 The ACDP says: Stop the rape of women and children. Stop the availability of drugs and pornography and bring back the death penalty. We love our children and must therefore take urgent drastic measures to protect them. Let us make South Africa a safe haven for our children, and not a country where they are raped and abused. [Applause.] Dr C P MULDER: Madam Speaker, when I was elected to Parliament, I never thought that there would come a day when I would have to participate in a debate in Parliament on the alarming incidents of child rape and abuse. Die skrikwekkende voorkoms van kinderverkragting - wat 'n skande! Wat 'n absolute verleentheid! Dit is 'n skande en 'n verleentheid dat die Adjunkpresident van Suid-Afrika en die hoogste wetgewende liggaam van hierdie land 'n debat moet voer oor die skrikwekkende voorkoms van kinderverkragting. Wat 'n skande! Wat moet die wêreld van Suid-Afrika dink? Wat sê dit van ons gemeenskappe; wat sê dit van ons gesinne? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follow.) 14 November 2001 Page 58 of 320 [The alarming occurrence of child rape - what a shame! What an absolute disgrace! It is a shame and a disgrace that the Deputy President of South Africa and the highest legislative body of this country must have a debate on the alarming occurrence of child rape. What a shame! What must the world think of South Africa? What does this say about our communities; what does it say about our families?] The hon Deputy President quoted and referred to the traditional slogan ``Any child is my child''. I am sorry to say to the hon the Deputy President that I think that not even that slogan will solve this problem because, in some cases, these children are raped by their own family members and they do not treat the children like their own in that sense. Hierdie probleem sal nie deur die Departement van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit of deur die Minister vir Justisie of deur ander wetgewing of ander maatreëls opgelos word nie; glad nie. Hierdie afskuwelikheid sal slegs opgelos word as daar normaliteit in die gesinslewe van gesinne in hierdie land intree, as 14 November 2001 Page 59 of 320 kinders opgevoed word om respek te hê vir ander, as daar deur elke man 'n voorbeeld aan sy kinders gestel word oor hoe om kinders, maar ook alle vroue, met waardigheid en respek te behandel. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.) [This problem will not be solved by the Department of Safety and Security or by the Minister for Justice or other legislation or any other measures; not at all. This abomination will only be solved once normality enters the family life of families in this country, when children are raised to have respect for one another, when every man sets an example to his children about how to treat children, as well as women, with dignity and respect.] The FF will support any action or any measure to rid our society of this terrible and unspeakable scourge. [Applause.] Mrs P W CUPIDO: Madam Speaker, South Africa, however beautiful this country is, it is, in many ways, not a home for children. It is a home for 14 November 2001 Page 60 of 320 adults, for people who are over the age of, I can say, at least 16, because this category would be less vulnerable and are able to resist and fight back. If one cannot resist and fight back against what seems dangerous, one might be destroyed forever or bear the scars of an ill society. If a child finds him or herself in South Africa today and looks in the mirror, then what I have just said is what would stare back at him or her. In many ways, we can call it an ill society. The World Declaration on the Survival, Protection and Development of Children is very specific in clauses 2 and 3. I quote: The children of the world are innocent, vulnerable and dependent. They are also curious, active and full of hope. Their time should be one of joy and peace, of playing, learning and growing. Their future should be shaped in harmony and co-operation. But for many children, the reality out there of childhood is altogether different. 14 November 2001 Page 61 of 320 Instead any day could be the dark day of death when countless children in this country are exposed to dangers such as rape, abuse, abandonment, neglect, cruelty, exploitation, and as casualties of violence and, saddest of all, such children are at the very mercy of the failing Government. It is possible that the Government laws to protect children might remain a dream. What has this country got to offer for each child that is born today or tomorrow? According to the national crime statistics and trends of 2000 and 2001, 51 200 rapes were reported in 1999 of which thousands were children. There was an increase of 20,8% from 1994 to 1999. The DP believes that the ANC Government is far too bureaucratic. We need to have imaginative proposals and solutions. Although we have a horrible legacy left over from the apartheid era, we must strive towards changing the attitudes of our society. Kom ons takel die oorsake en die feite van hierdie probleem. Dit is dan juis die ANC wat voor 1994 disinvestering voorgestaan het om die NP-regering 14 November 2001 Page 62 of 320 op sy knieë te dwing. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dit op sigself het grootskaalse werkloosheid en hongersnood tot gevolg gehad. Sedertdien is maatskaplike verval aan die orde van die dag, in so 'n mate dat weerlose kinders feitlik van geboorte af - twee, drie maande oud - tot in hulle tienderjare die slagoffers word van werklose mans wat hulle oorgee aan hierdie sinlose, demoniese dade van geweld. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.) [Let us tackle the causes and the facts of this problem. It was in fact the ANC who advocated disinvestment before 1994 to force the NP Government to its knees. [Interjections.] This in itself resulted in large-scale unemployment and starvation. Subsequently social decline has become the order of the day, to such an extent that defenceless children have, practically from birth - two, three months old - until they are teenagers, become the victims of unemployed men who indulge in these senseless, fiendish acts of violence. [Interjections.]] 14 November 2001 Page 63 of 320 Can a man ever be punished enough after he has raped a two-month-old or a three-year-old child? The DP proposes that the responsible Minister considers legislation that will provide for special professional counselling services over a specific period of time that will enable such child victims to have the best treatment and assistance for maximum recovery. A special fund should also be available to assist the traumatised families. Ek vra vandag die Adjunkpresident om iets te doen aan die justisiewette van hierdie land en om seker te maak dat hierdie barbaarse geweldenaars behoorlik gestraf word en nooit weer die geleentheid kry om sulke dade te herhaal nie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.) [I ask the Deputy President today to do something about the laws of justice of this country and to ensure that these barbaric, violent criminals are properly punished and are never again given the opportunity to repeat such acts. [Applause.]] 14 November 2001 Page 64 of 320 Mr I S MFUNDISI: Madam Speaker and hon members, rape is such a heinous and morally repulsive crime. It debases the victim and leaves her with indelible psychological and emotional scars. There are some sex-pests who do not qualify to be called human, who perpetrate this cowardly act even against young defenceless babies. Such hoodlums deserve maximum sentencing such as that imposed on the bestial teacher of Itsoseng in the North West province. While we respect the independence of the judiciary, it is not unreasonable to speak out that some of the sentences meted out to these louts are ludicrous. Imagine a judge of the High Court discharging a rapist on the grounds of an eleven- year-old victim not having taken an oath, whilst in effect she had been raped. Because capital punishment is out of the question in this country, consideration will have to be given to emasculating these sex offenders, and even stigmatising them by registering them in a national sex offenders' register. Efforts should be mounted 14 November 2001 Page 65 of 320 to inform the community whenever a paedophile moves around in the area. It is argued in some quarters that such dastardly acts are committed while the offenders are in a drunken stupor or under the influence of drugs. I reject this argument with the contempt it deserves. If unaware of what they are doing, why are they aware that they have to force what into what on whom? As public representatives, let us go out there and speak out against this moral outrage. Sex offenders should not be given any room to move around in civilised society. Let us remember baby Tshepang and others who are in a similar situation with love, and hope that they will grow up to overcome the ordeal. As for the infamous rapists, may they carry the curse and never have peace in their lives. [Applause.] Dr S E M PHEKO: Madam Speaker, the alarming incidents of child rape and abuse reveal that this nation needs healing. It is a wake-up call that 14 November 2001 Page 66 of 320 much damage has been done to this country, not only politically and economically, but also morally. It is not enough to quote statistics. They will not bring back babies and children who have been raped. Some have died or have now suffered permanent psychological damage. This problem is a challenge to this nation to soul search itself. This country has been subjected to foreign cultural values. The country needs an Africanist cultural revolution. Africans must go back to their cultural roots and to their high pre-colonial standard of morality. This is a culture that gave meaning to our unique humanity, ubuntu. In ubuntu the raping and abuse of children is unknown. The PAC believes that stiffer sentences must be meted out to rapists including chemical castration, seeing that we have become a nation where criminals have more rights than law-abiding citizens, all with the false notion of not being brutal to criminals, no matter how brutal they are to society, including the raping of our babies, children and women. 14 November 2001 Page 67 of 320 To prevent this insane culture of rapists and murderers in our country, the PAC proposes the following: Firstly, we must fight to remove drugs from our society. Horrible crimes are being committed under the influence of drugs. Drug dealers and traffickers are murderers of our nation. They should be shown no mercy when convicted. Secondly, there has been a superstitious belief spread by forces of darkness that when an HIV/Aids male patient sleeps with a young female, he can be cured of this disease. Lastly, the moral fibre of the nation has broken down alarmingly. All religions in our country must play their role in helping to heal this nation morally, and return it to its spiritual values. The PAC extends its condolences to all families in our country which have been affected by these alarming incidents of child rape and abuse. Mnr P J I BLANCHÉ: Mevrou die Speaker, ek hoop van harte dat hierdie Parlement nou tot die besef gekom 14 November 2001 Page 68 of 320 het, dat ons nie net met gereelde tussenposes hierdie ``talk shop'' sonder om doelgerigte stappe te neem wat mense daar buite sal beskerm teen barbaarse optrede van uitvaagsels in ons gemeenskap nie. As ons onsself nie sien as leiers van die Afrika Renaissance, dan moet hierdie Parlement nou stappe neem wat 'n einde sal maak aan geweldsmisdade. Parlementslede moet besluit om die Grondwet te wysig, sodat die doodstraf opgelê moet word vir sekere geweldsmisdade, anders sal vroue en kinders nooit veilig wees in hierdie land, boere sal ophou boer en polisiemanne en -vroue sal elke dag sterwe. Ons ervaar reeds dat moordenaars hierheen vlug, omdat hulle hier die doodstraf kan vryspring. In Botswana of enige ander buurstaat sal ses mans nie waag om 'n 9-maandeoue baba aan te rand, wat staan nog van te verkrag. Waar in die wêreld kry 'n mens 'n moordenaar tien jaar en drie jaar opgeskort nadat hy 'n man vyf kilometer ver agter sy bakkie aangesleep het? Ons kan nie met gereelde tussenposes mosies uitlees in hierdie Parlement en in debatte soos hierdie ons afsku uitspreek oor 14 November 2001 Page 69 of 320 wandade wat gepleeg word, sonder om iets daadwerkliks daaraan te doen nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.) [Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Madam Speaker, I sincerely hope that this Parliament has now come to realise that we cannot only have these talk shops at regular intervals without taking decisive steps to protect the people out there from the barbaric acts of the dregs of our society. If we consider ourselves to be leaders of the African Renaissance, then this Parliament must now take steps to put an end to violent crimes. Members of Parliament must decide to amend the Constitution, so that the death penalty must be imposed for certain violent crimes, otherwise women and children will never be safe in this country, farmers will stop farming and policemen and women will die every day. We are already finding that murderers flee to this country, because they will escape the death penalty here. In Botswana or any other neighbouring state six men would not dare to assault a nine-month-old baby, let alone rape her. Where in the world would 14 November 2001 Page 70 of 320 a murderer be sentenced to ten years' imprisonment with three of those years being suspended after dragging a man behind his van for five kilometres. We cannot at regular intervals read out motions in this Parliament and express our abhorrence at misdeeds that have been committed in debates such as this one without taking some positive action in this regard.] The buck stops here. If our laws do not deter criminals, and if our policy is going to provide a safe haven for terorrists, then we must move out of the talkshop phase and into the action phase to protect our citizens. Every one of the relevant parliamentary portfolio committees and every member of those committees must stand up and be counted as a member of Parliament who says that he or she has had enough of crime in this land. We owe it to the hundreds of murdered policemen, farmers and farmworkers. We owe it to thousands of terrorised children and women. We owe it to South Africans who have been killed in armed hijackings 14 November 2001 Page 71 of 320 and robberies. We owe it to all these South Africans to put our mouths where we earn our money. I only got two minutes to talk in this debate, but it is enough. I am much better at working than at talking. I want to earn respect rather than a salary. [Applause.] Mnr C AUCAMP: Mevrou die Speaker, dit het die verkragting van 'n negemaandeoue baba gekos om ons met 'n skok te stel voor die afgryslike realiteite van kinderverkragting en -mishandeling in Suid- Afrika. Die kleine babatjie van Upington weet dit nie, maar daar waar haar geskende liggaampie herstel, het sy die Nkosi Johnson geword in die stryd teen hierdie onmenslike euwel. Baie waar en wyse woorde is vandag in hierdie debat gesê. Politici vat hande teen verkragting. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.) [Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, it took the rape of a nine-month-old baby to face us, horrified, with the grim realities of child rape and child abuse in South Africa. The small baby of Upington does not 14 November 2001 Page 72 of 320 know it, but where her small body is recovering, she became the Nkosi Johnson in the battle against inhuman evil. Many true and wise words were spoken in this debate today. Politicians unite against rape.] The theme of my short message is: We must strengthen the moral fibre of our country by strengthening civil society. Yes, Government has a role to play, especially through education and, of course, its security and judiciary services, but the upliftment of the moral fibre of a country lies primarily with civil society. I am afraid civil society in South Africa has deteriorated dramatically. Black South Africans upheld vibrant civil organisations before 1994, but these have stagnated since the gaining of power. White South Africans on the other hand tend to privatise their lives in a desperate effort to escape the realities of losing power. All of us must work together for the upliftment of a community life. 14 November 2001 Page 73 of 320 In this regard, religion and the church have a pivotal role to play. May I assure members that the mere preaching of generally accepted human values is not enough; because that will merely be moralising and will have little impact on the lives of the people. No, people do find their anchors in a specific religion with specific beliefs, rituals, communion, ceremonies and, above all, a personal vertical relationship, not with an unknown God. Ons moet kennis neem van die feit dat in die breë gesien, kan die algemene grootste gemene deler godsdiens goed klink vir vrede en harmonie, maar dit kan leeg wees, hol en kragteloos en geen bron vir nuwe lewe nie. Getroue, lojale gelowiges wat ook wil toesien dat hulle kinders in hul besondere geloof opgevoed word, is nie fundamentaliste, maar die hart en die kern van 'n gesonde gemeenskap. Die owerheid moet hulle nie as 'n bedreiging sien nie, maar as die belangrikste en voorste vegters in die loopgrawe teen morele verval, as die belangrikste instrument om te verhoed dat mense erger as diere word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.) 14 November 2001 Page 74 of 320 [We must take cognisance of the fact that taking a broad view, religion can sound good as the biggest common denominator for peace and harmony, but it can be empty, hollow and powerless and not a source of new life. Devoted and loyal believers that also want to see to it that their children are brought up in their particular religion, are not fundamentalists, but the heart and soul of a healthy community. The authorities should not regard them as a threat but as the most important and foremost fighters in the trenches against moral decline, as the most important instrument in preventing people from becoming worse than animals.] Let us all work together to make every South African not a lonesome lost individual, but a person secured and anchored in a family, a community, and a living congregation. [Applause.] Mr M WATERS: Madam Speaker, Deputy President and hon members, throughout history it has been the inaction of those who could have acted, the indifference of those who should have known better, 14 November 2001 Page 75 of 320 and the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most that has made it possible for evil to triumph over good. In those words, members of Government must begin to recognise themselves, for they have either failed to act decisively to prevent child abuse or ... [Interjections.] The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Ah! Go and sit down. Mr M WATERS: ... acted indifferently towards the issue by not giving it the priority or the budget that it deserves and through their ill-conceived policies created a state where justice is merely a word. The result is a state of evil, because surely a nine-month-old baby who has been gangraped, a three-year-old who has been chopped up and left in a bucket, and 13-year-olds who have been prostituted by their own family members, is evil. But, what is worse? The sick perpetrators of these hideous acts or a Government that sits idly by, watching the children of South Africa suffer? 14 November 2001 Page 76 of 320 I want this House to know that child abuse goes beyond opposition politics. I am not standing here merely as an opposition MP, but as a truly disgusted citizen who is outraged by the Government's totally inadequate response to this crime being committed against our children. As a citizen I know precisely the anger and frustration that prompted Dr Heather McCabe to write letters to everyone she could think of and to start an e-mail campaign, expressing the extreme anger and frustration that every decent South African is feeling throughout the country. In order to understand the extent of the problem, I ask members to visualise a packed Ellis Park Stadium which has a capacity of 55 000 people. Now overpack that stadium with 10 000 additional people, convert those 65 000 people, that is the sport fans, to 65 000 babies, infants and children, and what one is seeing are the numbers who were reported abused, raped and murdered in the year 2000 alone. It excludes unreported cases. 14 November 2001 Page 77 of 320 Of those 65 000 children, only 7 000 received justice through the courts, meaning that 10,7% of all reported cases ended in a successful conviction. In other words, a child rapist, batterer or murderer has nearly a 90% chance of getting away with it. Lives are literally being destroyed while members of Parliament live in their sheltered offices putting other things first. [Interjections.] I want to tell the Minister that this is the perception out there. We do not need more diatribes, we need action. [Interjections.] For a start, this House needs to insist on the implementation of its own laws, and in this case, the Criminal Law Amendment Act, which provides for children's courts in every magisterial district, thereby better facilitating the process of giving evidence for these already traumatised children. In reply to a question I asked, the Minister for Justice admitted that a shocking 201 magisterial districts were still without children's courts, and that it would cost just over R14 million to install 14 November 2001 Page 78 of 320 all these children's courts. Yes, only R14 million, which is nothing when one considers that it will go a long way in securing more convictions and making our communities safer places overall. But, of course, the Government claims that it does not have this R14 million, while it does have R90 million for a racism conference and R1,5 billion to bail out the Post Office. [Interjections.] The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Sit down. Go back to the kindergarten. [Interjections.] Mr M WATERS: Madam Speaker, it does not have R14 million to bring rapists and murderers to justice. Is this due to the fact that children have no political voice or merely because the Government has other priorities? I would like to leave the House with one thought for today - there is no excuse for child abuse. [Applause.] Mr M J G MZONDEKI: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy President, hon members, I will resist the temptation to respond to some of the remarks that have been made here and rather take the advice of 14 November 2001 Page 79 of 320 the Speaker that we must approach this debate in a positive manner. The first time that I was called to make an intervention in a child rape and abuse case was some years back in the mining town of Welkom, when I was called by a local parents' organisation to try and rescue a 14-year-old girl who had been abducted by men to a men's hostel. She was kept there against her will and repeatedly raped, and we only managed to rescue her 25 hours later. I will never be able to begin to imagine the trauma and suffering that this young child experienced during her ordeal, particularly because her powerlessness was compounded by the fact that she was voiceless. She was unable to speak. She was extremely defenceless and helpless in the presence of the aggressors. To this day, the question has always remained with me: Why do men have to exert their misguided, perceived powers so violently against vulnerable children and women? What is it that makes some men want to prove their manhood 14 November 2001 Page 80 of 320 through a forceful and excessive display of misguided violence? We often talk about rape and abuse in a particular way and talk as if everybody understands the gravity of the actual act, but do men really comprehend its meaning? Perhaps we should talk about child abuse and start talking about a child. The Child Care Act defines a child as a male or female person between the ages of 8 and 18 years. And the Oxford Dictionary describes a child as a young human being below the age of full physical development. This put simply means that it is a young and growing human being who is embarking on a journey through a process of transformation from innocence, defencelessness and incapability to one that is, hopefully, informed, capable and responsible and to assist this young person through a healthy development and transformation process into adulthood. It needs a loving, nurturing and a caring adult, whom this young being can feel connected to, cared about and protected. 14 November 2001 Page 81 of 320 The dictionary says that abuse is: ``Used to bad effect or purpose, to treat with cruelty or violence, to assault sexually, to address in an insulting or offensive way''. It is an intended action that brings into play the element of power, on the one hand, and helplessness on the other. It is often expressed through various forms such as mistreatment, cruelty, maltreatment, violence, neglect and exploitation. And, if one were to take a situation where a child has fallen victim to rape and abuse, then most often, it would be expressed through aggressive violence to the point of brutality and this against the pureness and innocence that we all, at one stage in our lives, experienced. The known aggressors and violators of such innocence are almost always adult males - men. And the question still is: Why? If we as leaders and protectors of this nation have to move or remove this huge unsightly thorn from the moral flesh and fibre of South African society, then we need to trace the roots of this evil, which 14 November 2001 Page 82 of 320 has now embedded itself almost to the point where it has become a commonality and part of our daily lives. In recognising the need to rectify this, we need to ascertain and acknowledge its root causes. Today's youth are the offspring of the old ones of the past era, most of whom have grown up without a role model to guide them in their development because some of their fathers were involved in the liberation struggle, some were building the new South Africa, and some were active in mining as migrant labourers. This resulted in the youth of the new millennium, when spoken of, conjuring up images of crime, HIV prevalence, poor academic performances, and a total lack of interest in politics and society in general. Reflecting on this passage of transformation we also have to acknowledge that the advent of gender equity within the new South Africa has caught men unaware and unprepared, and literary pulled the rug out from under their feet. Men primarily believed and lived with the notion that they own and have power, and therefore perceived themselves to be 14 November 2001 Page 83 of 320 powerful. Men understood real power to mean being in control of any given situation on the one hand, and controlling the destiny of one's own domain and those within it on the other. Where they confront barriers to the exercising of their power, physical force is used as the next resort to enforce and instil their power. It never occurs to them that power can be and should be shared and negotiated, even within the domestic domain. However, whilst we progress in the empowerment and development of our women, our men, as a parallel route of empowerment, were not taken along in a similar process that would enable them to understand the new concept of sharing power with the opposite sex. So is it perhaps not that this is a much-needed supported form of transformation and development for men of today, and the missing piece when seeking the answers behind the cruelty of child rape and abuse. The current affirmation of the female identity as equal is evident in the employment market, the continuing independence of women and the confidence 14 November 2001 Page 84 of 320 with which they display their day-to-day lives in activities. Do real men feel threatened by this achievement? Is it causing them to feel insecure to the extent that they have become so vulnerable that they need to resort to situations where they are creators of illusions where they perceive themselves to be powerful beings? And is it not that now that gender equality and empowerment have become a part of our lives, the next best victim to receive and express this perceived power within a most abusive and aggressive manner is the young and innocent child? Is it not time to identify, within the modern South Africa, irrespective of culture, creed and social status amongst ourselves as men, what constitutes a real man, more specifically within this changing culture of gender and role transformation? It is of much concern that it had to take another victim of child rape and abuse to bring men together in this House to talk about, debate and discuss the issue in the open. But is it not time for us men to inwardly reflect on our own perception of power and acknowledge without 14 November 2001 Page 85 of 320 reservation that we have to learn to understand and accept our new role within shared power in this new and young democracy of ours? We have to acknowledge that we need, as a first step to redress, to start with ourselves here in this Parliament, as the much-needed role- models to men and the youth out there, and that we need to set an example and participate in the campaign titled: "Real men do not rape’’. It is our collective responsibility to find within the real man and bring him to the fore, as part of setting an example, and in doing so, embark on a new passage of healing, guiding and sharing. [Applause.] The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy President and hon members, we have, all of us, been shattered by the recent spate of rape and abuse against our children. Public comment has been angry, emotional, confused and strident in its condemnation of these appalling assaults. Let us not, in our anger, lose sight of the central issue. Rape is not a sexual 14 November 2001 Page 86 of 320 act, it is an act of violence perpetrated by the powerful over the powerless. These incidents highlight in stark and shocking detail how race, class and gender conspire to rob the most vulnerable of their human dignity, and speak centrally to the perceived and actual power and balances that hold sway in our society. In respect of this specific incident in Upington, the Director for Public Prosecutions in the Northern Cape has assured my Minister, Dr Penuell Maduna, that the matter will be handled by an experienced senior prosecutor and will be heard in a High Court. The accused will remain in custody until 23 November. The Upington community in particular, expressed anger about last week's postponement of the case. We need to remind ourselves that our Constitution guarantees every person a fair trial and the accused must be given time to secure legal representation. In circumstances such as these, anger is understandable, but it is time for us to do something positive, thoughtful and meaningful, 14 November 2001 Page 87 of 320 something that makes a difference. I believe that this onslaught against children and women will not cease until men become part of the solution. Each one of us has a father, a husband, a son, a brother or an uncle. On the 25th of this month, the 16 days of activism for no violence against Women begins. Let us embrace this opportunity to recommit ourselves to making our women and children safe and free from fear of violence. These 16 days provide the ideal opportunity to sensitise and involve men and boys proactively in the fight against violence and abuse. Just this morning, I attended a workshop organised by the Gender Advocacy Programme. The theme of the workshop was "Building Peace in the Home: Integrated Strategies for Change". Two of the items on their agenda were particularly relevant to today's debate. They discussed ``Life-skills development programmes with youths to impact on changing gender roles'', and ``Working with men to 14 November 2001 Page 88 of 320 change the prevalent attitudes and perceptions that lead to violent and abusive behaviour''. These two topics, I believe, speak to the very heart of our debate, and the challenge, both for the Government and civil society, will be how to reach and interact with the maximum number of boys and men within manageable and realistic timeframes. As indicated by the Deputy President and other speakers here today, the promotion and protection of our children's rights enjoy priority status in our governance structures and in the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security Cluster in particular. Recognising the need for fundamental transformation in our society and changing particularly the way in which that society views and treats its most vulnerable, law reform has provided a powerful instrument for effecting change and protecting the rights of our citizens, children, women and men. In this we are guided by our Constitution, which lays down the principles for change and transformation, including a special reference to children and their best interest. It does so by entrenching far- 14 November 2001 Page 89 of 320 reaching provisions to protect them from abuse, all forms of exploitation and any other action that may infringe upon or compromise their rights in any way. We are further guided by our accession in 1995 to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and the African Charter on the Rights and Welfare of the Child. The world community has underlined the importance of ensuring that children's human rights are given special attention by the almost universal ratification of the UN Convention. We have an exceptional body of laws to combat violence and restore the dignity of those whose rights have been violated. The Child Care Act and the Sexual Offences Act specifically prohibit sexual abuse and exploitation of children. These Acts are currently under review to make them even more comprehensive and effective. The host of special legal instruments, approved by this Parliament since 1994, have empowered law enforcement agencies to act against the 14 November 2001 Page 90 of 320 perpetrators of violence against children and women. I believe that when we look at children we see our future. They are our most precious asset, and as such, they deserve to be cherished, nurtured and allowed to develop in the best possible circumstances that we as a society, can provide. Historically, though, the majority of our children have experienced oppression, loss of dignity, terrible suffering, and all too frequently death resulting from social and economic deprivation, not to mention political persecution. Lack of access to education, health services, protection from the elements and adequate nutrition has left our children, particularly African children, in dire straits. While the Government dedicates itself to the enormous challenges that face it in this specialised area of our law, it is important to note that the conspiracy of silence that surrounds incidents of domestic abuse and violence continues to undermine effective law enforcement. All too 14 November 2001 Page 91 of 320 often violence in the home is regarded as a "family or private matter", and in such cases friends, neighbours, social workers and the police are reticent to intervene. Whether at home or on the street, whether behind closed doors or in a public place, violence is violence, and failure to act further imperils those most at risk. In today's world of altered family structures and the ever-increasing pressures of urbanisation on the one hand, and rural impoverishment on the other, the state has an increasingly significant role to play in the protection of our children. And this protection becomes increasingly important when the perpetrators of domestic violence are shielded by a devastating social irony - that this violence is more often than not meted out by persons related or known to the victim and often in the sanctity of their own homes. Critical to the successful implementation of this legislation is the integration of services provided by the participating departments. The cluster approach to cross-sectoral matters has proved a 14 November 2001 Page 92 of 320 useful tool in managing the rigorous demands of this legislation. The President, Mr Thabo Mbeki, has accorded this issue the importance and status it deserves. The Office on the Status of the Child, situated in the Presidency, provides the essential leadership and guidance in accordance with the activities of the various line departments. Regular contact with that Office has added a new dimension and efficacy to the cluster process. This work process has set new standards for co-operative and integrated task management. The effectiveness of this legislation, though, is also dependent on other aspects of law and legal processes. In this regard we have developed legislation that places a particular onus on the courts in respect of conditions of bail in these matters. Perpetrators of violent acts will not be granted bail unless the courts find exceptional circumstances exist for not applying the prescribed provisions. Legislation that regulates sentencing has also been passed, and this ensures that 14 November 2001 Page 93 of 320 judicial offices in serious cases have to apply extremely strict minimum sentences unless substantial and compelling reasons not to apply them prevail. In terms of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, the maximum sentence for the sexual abuse of a child could be life imprisonment, but the decision to impose the maximum sentence lies ultimately with the judiciary. Measures to sensitise a judicial officer to the very special circumstances that prevail in domestic violence and sexual abuse cases, form a major part of the justice college's ongoing training and education programme. Recently, a judge in the Pretoria High Court sentenced a man to life imprisonment after he was convicted of raping a seven-year-old girl. The deterrent message carried in this sentence is unequivocal, and it is not an isolated case. By September this year 69 convicted offenders had been handed life sentences for crimes committed against children. While in the past testimony by children was subject to rigorous interrogation, often to the detriment 14 November 2001 Page 94 of 320 of the victim, the SA Law Commission's investigation into process and procedure will further regulate and simplify testimony of child victims in our courts. The establishment of specialised sexual offences courts has made it easier for children to give evidence in court in a child-friendly environment. Separate testimony rooms, closed-circuit television facilities and separate witness waiting rooms are but some of the facilities that feature in this unique court environments. Children and women are turning to these courts in increasing numbers, because they stand a real chance of obtaining effective remedies against sexual and domestic violence. In these environments dedicated investigating officers, specifically trained prosecutors and forensic medical practitioners combine their skills to support victims and survivors as they make their way to the criminal justice system. A partnership between a National Prosecuting Authority and the Department of Health at the Jooste Hospital in the Cape Flats has managed to sustain their prosecution rate of over 80% since 14 November 2001 Page 95 of 320 soon after its inception. This is extraordinary, even by international standards. On the train-the- trainer basis similar units have been opened at the Somerset West and Mdantsane hospitals. We acknowledge that until the programme for sexual offences is rolled out to all parts of the country, especially the rural areas, access to these specialised services will be limited over the short to medium term. Due to funding constraints, the process has, of necessity, to be incremental. Demand for these services far exceeds the parameters of currently available resources. We are in the process of creating decision packages that will compete for funding on the basis of capacity, to add value to service delivery. In short, we are designing a delivery framework that will be reflected appropriately in our budget and in our actions. However, reducing the level of violence in our society cannot be the sole responsibility of the state or Government. Unless communities act positively and proactively to stem the tide, the 14 November 2001 Page 96 of 320 impact of our efforts would continue to be compromised. Failure to report the sexual abuse of children and the withdrawal of cases after they have been reported, frustrate our best efforts to make meaningful inroads in this area of law enforcement. Failure to report sexual offences impacts negatively on the overall safety and security of vulnerable groups such as women and children. If rape is not reported, it cannot be responded to. And withdrawing cases after they have been reported reinforces the belief amongst perpetrators that they can act violently and with impunity. It also increases the potential for further acts against other victims if the perpetrators are not brought to book. Owing to a combination of factors, not all reported rape cases result in prosecution. We have established these specialised courts to eliminate those factors that militate against prosecution and to provide an empowering environment that addresses the fears and concerns of victims and survivors of rape. 14 November 2001 Page 97 of 320 Encouraging results are already emerging from all our sexual offences courts. Consolidated and improved prosecutorial services and the user- friendly court environment have been pivotal in the campaign to combat violence against women and children. It has also become a key to improving the interface between victims and the different facets of the criminal justice system. We must, as a community, eradicate abuse and violence by encouraging victims to report violations, and then stick with the processes and they progress to the court system. We understand that the court process can be frightening, and we appeal to friends and relatives to support victims and survivors who find themselves in these circumstances. Before I conclude, I must caution members that in the clamour for harsh action against the perpetrators of sexual offences against women and children, we might lose sight of the very people that really need our help - the victims and survivors of these acts. The focus on what action 14 November 2001 Page 98 of 320 we take against sexual crime offenders should never overshadow the restorative processes we provide to address their plight. [Applause.] Debate concluded. HIGH INCIDENCE OF RAPE AND ABUSE OF CHILDREN (Draft Resolution) The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I hereby move without notice that the House- That the House - (1) notes the shockingly high incidence of rape and abuse of children and babies across our country; (2) also notes that South Africa is not only a signatory of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, but has also passed some of the world's most progressive laws 14 November 2001 Page 99 of 320 aimed at promoting and protecting those rights; (3) believes that each incident of rape and abuse of children is not simply an isolated event, but an intrinsic part of the historic abuse of children that has manifested itself over the centuries in - (a) child slavery; (b) child labour; (c) child pornography; (d) the child trade; (e) hunger, poverty and disease; (f) abuse; and (g) rape; 14 November 2001 Page 100 of 320 (4) agrees to take the fight to the perpetrators by - (a) holding public hearings on child rape and abuse to analyse its causes, and inform our counter-strategies appropriately; (b) mobilising all our communities and the public sector to fight and expose this scourge; and (c) campaigning for the harshest punishment permissible under the Constitution; (5) reminds South Africans that this unacceptable social behaviour goes against the grain of the cultural traditions of all our people; and (6) calls on all South Africans, as individuals, sectors and communities, to unite in the fight against child rape and abuse. 14 November 2001 Page 101 of 320 Agreed to. [Applause.] WELCOMING OF DELEGATION FROM NAMIBIA The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, before I go on to the next item on the Order Paper, I would like to recognise the delegation from Namibia which is led by the Chairperson of the Public Accounts Committee of their parliament and also accompanied by the Auditor-General. We would like to welcome them to this Parliament. [Applause.] QUESTIONS AND REPLIES - see that book. NOTICES OF MOTION Mr R J B MOHLALA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the House - 14 November 2001 Page 102 of 320 (1) notes - (a) reports of the Taliban retreat from the city of Kabul in Afghanistan as Northern Alliance forces march through the city; (b) that the news of the fall of the Taliban regime was received with joy by the masses of the people of Afghanistan; and (c) that the United Nations is preparing for a transitional government to govern the country; (2) calls on the masses of the people of Afghanistan to work towards - (a) the restoration of human rights which were eroded as a result of the deliberate disregard of such rights by the oppressive and repressive Taliban government; and 14 November 2001 Page 103 of 320 (b) ever-lasting peace, democracy and national unity; and (3) calls on the international community to mobilise resources to assist the people of Afghanistan in the implementation of the post-war recovery programme and the building of a sovereign state based on a universal Bill of Rights. [Applause.] Mr W J SEREMANE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move: That the House - (1) notes that - (a) despite the ANC's publicity stunt in the form of the overpriced and pretentious ``imbizo’’ campaign, depressed places such as Bizana in the Eastern Cape are 14 November 2001 Page 104 of 320 crying out for relief and substantial delivery in return for the votes given to the ANC; and (b) the ANC's neglected and inefficient governance makes a mockery of the so- called ``the people have spoken mandate’’; and (2) calls on the ANC to deliver to Bizana before delivering to Burundi, even though it is ``neighbourly’’ to do so, because charity should really begin at home. [Interjections.] Mrs S A SEATON: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP: That the House - (1) received with shock the sad news that an Eastern Cape police station commissioner, 14 November 2001 Page 105 of 320 Captain Andries Japhta, 34, shot dead his wife, children and himself early yesterday morning; (2) wishes to extend its condolences to the next of kin of both the husband and the wife during their period of mourning; (3) believes that there may be really serious emotional or other problems experienced by the members of the SAPS, as revealed by the spate of suicides and family murders; and (4) appeals to the Ministry and the Department of Safety and Security to commission a holistic investigation into this matter with a view to remedying the situation. Mr M U KALAKO: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the House - 14 November 2001 Page 106 of 320 (1) notes - (a) reports that former President Nelson Mandela berated US President Bush for agreeing to meet Ariel Sharon and yet refusing to meet President Arafat; and (b) that ex-President Mandela has proposed that attempts to resolve the ongoing conflict in the Middle East be handled by a mediation committee composed of a number of countries, not a single country; (2) believes that the proposals made by Comrade Mandela will go a long way towards achieving a peaceful resolution of the conflict in the Middle East; and (3) expresses its full support for the proposals made by former President Mandela. [Applause.] 14 November 2001 Page 107 of 320 Mnr J W LE ROUX: Voorsitter, hiermee gee ek kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die Nuwe NP voorstel: Dat die Huis - (1) met skok kennis neem van die tragiese gesinsmoord gister in Jansenville, toe die stasiekommissaris, inspekteur Andries Japhta, sy vrou en drie kinders doodgeskiet het voordat hy ook sy eie lewe geneem het; (2) kennis neem van die uiters stresvolle werksomstandighede van polisielede en dat navorsers bevind het dat die gemiddelde aantal selfmoorde onder polisielede in Suid- Afrika 130 per 100 000 is, die hoogste in die wêreld, terwyl dit in oorsese lande nagenoeg 18 per 100 000 is; en (3) 'n beroep doen op die Minister van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit en die Polisiekommissaris om dringend aandag te skenk aan - 14 November 2001 Page 108 of 320 (a) die emosionele welstand van die SAPD deur te verseker dat hulle toegang het tot die nodige professionele sielkundige dienste; en (b) . ander faktore soos personeeltekorte en swak betaling wat lei tot beroepsmatheid en emosionele spanning. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.) [Mr J W LE ROUX: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the New NP: That the House - (1) takes note with shock of the tragic family murder committed in Jansenville yesterday, when the station commander, Inspector Andries Japhta, shot and killed his wife and three children, before taking his own life; 14 November 2001 Page 109 of 320 (2) takes note of the extremely stressful working conditions of members of the police and that researchers have found that the average number of suicides amongst members of the police in South Africa is 130 per 100 000, the highest in the world, while in countries abroad it is approximately 18 per 100 000; and (3) appeals to the Minister of Safety and Security and the Police Commissioner to give urgent attention to - (a) the emotional wellbeing of the SAPS by ensuring that they have access to the necessary professional psychological services; and (b) other factors such as personnel shortages and poor remuneration which lead to occupational fatigue and emotional stress.] 14 November 2001 Page 110 of 320 Mr D G MKONO: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM: That the House - (1) welcomes the Glazewski report which severely criticises the deal between the National Botanical Institute and the Chicago-based Ball Horticultural Company, and confirms the UDM's concerns by stating that the deal is not beneficial for South Africa, and recommends that it be renegotiated; (2) notes - (a) that this is in line with the concerns expressed since April this year, during which the party called for intervention on the deal; and (b) the concerns raised regarding the impact of this deal on floriculture, ecotourism, potential economic opportunities and 14 November 2001 Page 111 of 320 pharmaceutical and related industries; and (3) urges the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs to intervene and suspend this deal, pending further negotiations, and thereby act in the best interest of all the people of South Africa. Mr G C OOSTHUIZEN: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the House - (1) notes the massive outcry against the light sentence passed on Piet Odendaal for killing his employee, Mr Mosoko Rampuru; (2) believes that - (a) racially inclined acts of violence should be met with the full might of the law; and 14 November 2001 Page 112 of 320 (b) the brutality of Piet Odendaal's actions warranted a stiffer sentence; and (3) welcomes the standpoint of the National Director of Public Prosecutions to seek a stiffer sentence in the event of Piet Odendaal's appeal against his piecemeal sentence. [Applause.] Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move: That the House - (1) notes with concern and outrage that reports indicate a clear increase in child rape cases in South Africa; (2) notes that the Government has been slow to act in addressing the urgent problem of child abuse and rape; 14 November 2001 Page 113 of 320 (3) further notes that it is ironic that the Government is now moving towards proper protection for children, when this kind of crime perpetrated against children has been occurring for a long time; (4) calls on the Government to provide all child rape victims with immediate access to antiretroviral drugs, with compulsory HIV testing; (5) notes that the family is the foundational building block of society and that it is the Government's responsibility to protect it and create an environment in which families can grow and flourish; and (6) calls on the Government to commit itself to ensuring that, with each case of reported child abuse or rape, the perpetrators are convicted and receive harsh sentences without the option of bail. 14 November 2001 Page 114 of 320 Mnr C AUCAMP: Mnr die Voorsitter, hiermee gee ek kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die AEB sal voorstel: Dat die Huis - (1) met kommer daarvan kennis neem dat die Parlement se Staande Komitee oor Openbare Rekenings bevind het dat die Departement van Justisie en Staatkundige Ontwikkeling se finansiële kontroles in 'n chaotiese toestand is; (2) met kommer kennis neem dat die gebrek aan kontrole betrekking het op die departement se depositorekening vir trustgelde, met 'n omset van R3,7 miljard per jaar; (3) daarop let dat die betrokke finansiële beheerbeampte die situasie beskryf as 'n "nasionale krisis" en 'n "nagmerrie"; (4) die verskoning van die direkteur-generaal dat hierdie toestand te wyte is aan die 14 November 2001 Page 115 of 320 gebrek aan opleiding tydens die apartheidsera verwerp, aangesien agt jaar reeds intussen verloop het; (5) meen dat hierdie onbekwaamheid eerder toegeskryf moet word aan die onoordeelkundige toepassing van regstellende aksie en ander optrede van die Regering wat gelei het tot die uitvloei van bekwame personeel en onmisbare ervaring; en (6) aanbeveel dat onmiddellike stappe gedoen word om die onbevredigende situasie reg te stel, waaronder die heraanstelling van ervare personeel wat uit diens gestel is. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.) [Mr C AUCAMP: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the AEB: That the House - 14 November 2001 Page 116 of 320 (1) notes with concern that Parliament's Standing Committee on Public Accounts found that the financial controls of the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development are in a chaotic state; (2) notes with concern that the lack of control refers to the department's deposit account for trust funds, with a turnover of R3,7 billion per annum; (3) notes that the relevant financial control officer describes the situation as a ``national crisis'' and a ``nightmare''; (4) rejects the excuse of the director-general that this state of affairs is as a result of a lack of training during the apartheid era, since eight years have already passed in the meantime; (5) is of the opinion that this incompetence should rather be attributed to the injudicious application of affirmative action 14 November 2001 Page 117 of 320 and other actions of the Government which led to the departure of competent personnel and indispensable experience; and (6) recommends that immediate steps be taken to rectify the unsatisfactory situation, including the reappointment of experienced personnel who were dismissed.] The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, can you please show respect to those members who are reading the motions. You are sitting right behind a member who is reading a motion and making a noise so that we cannot even hear what he is saying. Can we please respect each other! Mr R P ZONDO: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the House - (1) notes that - 14 November 2001 Page 118 of 320 (a) stolen goods worth R5 million have been recovered since the start of Operation Thunderstorm in Johannesburg; and (b) the National Crime Prevention Strategy is proving to be a success as it is turning the tide against gangsterism in the Western Cape; (2) believes that the recovery of stolen goods reflects the commitment of the Government to working towards a crime-free society; and (3) commends members of the South African Police Service for reducing levels of crime in our society. [Applause.] Mnr S E OPPERMAN: Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die DA sal voorstel: Dat die Huis - 14 November 2001 Page 119 of 320 (1) daarvan kennis neem dat die stryd om die premierskap tussen die Nuwe NP-leierskap en die ANC in die Wes-Kaap in alle erns begin het; (2) ook daarvan kennis neem dat die Nuwe NP- leierskap se aanbeveling gegrond is op die veronderstelling dat hulle kandidaat groter bruin steun geniet en volgens hulle 'n Christen is, en dus meer aanvaarbaar is, in teenstelling met die ANC-kandidaat wat 'n Moslem is; (3) glo dat dié verdelende en selfvernietigende benadering van die Nuwe NP nog steeds ooreenstem met die benadering van die ou NP; en (4) . 'n beroep doen op die amper gewese Nuwe NP om die speletjies met rassisme en godsdiens te staak en die basiese beginsels van die Grondwet, waartoe hulle hul met hul inhuldiging as lede van hierdie Parlement verbind het, te eerbiedig. 14 November 2001 Page 120 of 320 (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.) [Mr S E OPPERMAN: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the DA: That the House - (1) notes that the battle for the premiership between the New NP leadership and the ANC in the Western Cape has begun in earnest; (2) also notes that the New NP leadership's recommendation is based on the presumption that their candidate enjoys greater coloured support and is, according to them, a Christian, in contrast to, and therefore more acceptable than, the ANC candidate, who is a Muslim; (3) believes that this divisive and self- destructive approach of the New NP is still 14 November 2001 Page 121 of 320 in accord with the approach of the old NP; and (4) appeals to the almost defunct New NP to stop the games involving racism and religion and to respect the basic principles of the Constitution, to which they committed themselves upon their induction as members of this Parliament.] The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Mr Opperman, we have ruled in the past that you can only move a motion in the name of your own party and not in the name of another party which is not in this House. Please, do remember that. Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP: That the House - (1) express its concern about the murders and the safety of the members of the SA Police 14 November 2001 Page 122 of 320 Service, despite their goodwill in ensuring the safety and security of the public at large; (2) notes that there are safety precautions that they should also follow to ensure their safety, such as wearing bulletproof vests, but that, in most cases, they neglect to do so; (3) further notes that, in combatting criminal activity, there is no 100% absolute safety but these safety precautions have a positive impact on the reduction in police deaths; and (4) resolves that the senior management of the SAPS should regulate the wearing of bulletproof vests as an obligation on all police officials, especially those who deal directly with crime. Ms F HAJAIG: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC: 14 November 2001 Page 123 of 320 That the House - (1) notes that - (a) children from Laudium schools organised by Lamwa have collected food and clothing for distribution to adults and children who suffer from HIV/Aids and tuberculosis; and (b) this food and clothing will be distributed in Ivory Park, Ebony Park, Phomolong, Kanana and other informal settlements in the area; (2) commends the patriotism and solidarity displayed by these schoolchildren and women; and (3) calls on all people, young and old, to emulate this important example. [Applause.] 14 November 2001 Page 124 of 320 Mnr F J VAN DEVENTER: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die Nuwe NP sal voorstel: Dat die Huis - (1) kennis neem - (a) van die welslae wat die personeel van Operation Neptune behaal, asook die moeilike omstandighede waaronder hulle werk ten einde Suid-Afrika se mariene bronne te beskerm teen stropers en smokkelaars; (b) dat sedert Operation Neptune in Augustus 2000 aanvang geneem het, is 1 226 verdagtes in hegtenis geneem, afkoopboetes van R189 000 uitgereik en 59 voertuie gekonfiskeer is; (c) dat 12 bote en sleepwaens en perlemoen ter waarde van R12,9 miljoen ook gekonfiskeer is; 14 November 2001 Page 125 of 320 (d) dat personeel van Operation Neptune hulself dikwels onder skoot bevind tydens gewelddadige konfrontasies met stropers; en (e) Operation Neptune daarin geslaag het om hierdie welslae te behaal ten spyte van 'n tekort aan personeel en hulpmiddels; en (2) . 'n beroep doen op sy lede om almal wat betrokke is by Operation Neptune, te bedank en geluk te wens met die toewyding waarmee die manne en vroue Suid-Afrika se waardevolle bronne soos perlemoen beskerm. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.) [Mr F VAN DEVENTER: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the New NP: That the House - 14 November 2001 Page 126 of 320 (1) notes - (a) the success achieved by the staff of Operation Neptune, as well as the difficult conditions under which they work to protect South Africa's marine resources from poachers and smugglers; (b) that since the inception of Operation Neptune in August 2000, 1 226 suspects have been arrested, spot fines of R189 000 issued and 59 vehicles confiscated; (c) that 12 boats and trailers and abalone to the value of R12,9 million have also been confiscated; (d) that staff of Operation Neptune often find themselves being shot at during violent confrontations with poachers; and (e) Operation Neptune has managed to achieve this success despite a shortage of staff and resources; and 14 November 2001 Page 127 of 320 (2) appeals to its members to thank and congratulate everyone involved in Operation Neptune on the dedication with which these men and women protect South Africa's precious resources like abalone.] Ms A VAN WYK: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM: That the House - (1) notes that President Mbeki neglected to address some very important issues in his statement in the NCOP yesterday, such as that South Africa is not the crime capital of the world and that there are worse international examples; (2) acknowledges that President Mbeki also neglected to admit that the wide variety and incidence of violent crime in South Africa places us in the company of societies where 14 November 2001 Page 128 of 320 justice and the rule of law have completely disintegrated; and (3) acknowledges that South Africa's collective responsibility does not absolve President Mbeki and his Government from their constitutional responsibility to protect the safety of person and property of every South African. BABEL-OUED STORMS (Draft Resolution) The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Mr Chairperson, I move without notice: That the House - (1) notes that hundreds of people have lost their lives in storms that devastated the Bab El-Oued district in Algeria over the past weekend; and 14 November 2001 Page 129 of 320 (2) extends its deepest sympathy to the bereaved and the people of Algeria. Agreed to. REVENUE LAWS SECOND AMEMDMENT BILL (First Reading debate) Ms B A HOGAN: Mr Chairperson, the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement this year has a very useful quotation in it. It is as follows: Against the background of the tax reforms undertaken in the past two years, the 2002 Budget will herald a period of consolidation I think everyone in this House and particularly in our committee will welcome that commitment. I wanted to bring this Bill to the House to show it to members, but there was no wheelbarrow strong enough to carry that Bill into this House. 14 November 2001 Page 130 of 320 However, it has been a period of considerable tax reforms that we have gone through in these last two years and this Bill, in a sense, is a culmination of much of the tax reforms that have been taking place in the last two years. In particular, it deals with capital gains tax. The final remaining issues to be dealt with regarding capital gains tax relate to company restructuring and how capital gain will be dealt with in that way. The Bill also covers amendments to previous Bills we have passed relating to capital gains tax and refines those clauses as well. The Bill also amends 14 previous taxation laws. So it is a Bill which covers a wide range of issues. The speakers that will follow me, no doubt, will speak to some of the most important parts of it. Let me just mention that the secrecy provisions relating to matters that come before the commissioner, such as dealing with money- laundering, are being dealt with. I know that someone will be speaking on that. We are refining the process of the way objections and appeals can be lodged with the SA Revenue Service. Extensive 14 November 2001 Page 131 of 320 research was done on that and it is also going to be improved. There are various matters relating to Siyakha, which is the restructuring of the SA Revenue Service. One bears in mind how vigorous and resolute that restructuring has been. This Bill deals with major components of that. It also deals with amendments to the VAT laws, and to customs and excise ... [Interjections] ... taxation of controlled foreign entities and a number of other more minor issues. However, it is not to these issues in particular that I want to speak. Firstly, there are just a couple of issues that I think, from the committee's perspective, we would want raised. The issue of consolidation is very important. I am inundated by people who are constantly phoning and writing to me saying that the plethora of tax laws that have come through have inundated them and they are unable to cope with the amount of tax laws coming through. 14 November 2001 Page 132 of 320 That is correct. The amount of tax reform that we have undertaken has meant that a large amount of tax legislation has come through. That has left tax advisers and ordinary taxpayers in a difficult position because they have to cope with the new legislation. Many of them are battling to deal with these changes. So this period of consolidation will be very welcome so that people will be able to familiarise themselves with the considerable changes that have taken place in the tax policy. I certainly do hope that this will be a period of consolidation. [Interjections.] In addition, there are one or two other matters. The one is the taxation of the retirement fund industry. This has been put on hold for quite some time, and has been promised. We have to balance the necessity of getting this overview over and done with, with the requirements of quality legislation. I know that we did set a timeframe of more or less two years to look at the overhaul of the taxation of the retirement fund industry, yet I appeal that we do not stay too closely to those timeframes because I do believe that we need time to look at 14 November 2001 Page 133 of 320 this comprehensively and holistically, and manage a very good quality Bill when it comes before Parliament. The taxation of the public benefit organisations has gone a considerable way. There are still refinements that have to be added to the lists of those public benefit organisations that will benefit. I am hoping that this will come through in the next year so that NGOs will have a better understanding of their tax dispensation. The review of tax on banks is in the pipeline and that is certainly going to take up a lot of the SA Revenue Service's energies. Another issue is the simplification of the Income Tax Act. We need to address it. I do bear in mind the load that tax officials are carrying, but we do need a simplification of the Income Tax Act. It is very complex, very comprehensive and we do need it to be simplified. We also need it to be put into plain English. I think it is, at this stage, very difficult for most people to understand the particular Income Tax Act. 14 November 2001 Page 134 of 320 The reforms that have taken place in the last two years have not been the only reforms that we have seen. Yes, they have been mighty reforms. I was looking at the 1994 Budget Review and the Katz commission that reported in 1994, and it is astonishing to realise how far we have come in achieving so many of the reforms that were mooted at that stage. The reforms of personal income tax have been considerable. We have narrowed and lessened the income tax brackets. The thresholds at which people come into the income tax system have been increased, making it far easier for people earning low salaries to deal with income tax. The reduction in the gradation of the marginal rates schedule has been considerably improved. Adjustments for inflation have gone ahead very well in the last two years. We have seen considerable tax relief, particularly in the last two years and particularly to the lower and middle-income groups, which has been very beneficial. It has acted as a stimulus to the economy. We have seen tax relief for company taxes as well. 14 November 2001 Page 135 of 320 What is often overlooked, too, is that, within the first 18 months of us coming to Parliament, we removed all gender discrimination in tax laws, which was a considerable achievement at the time if one looks back to the complexities related to that. It is astonishing that those gender discriminations remained within our taxation system. If one looks at how the revenue service has managed to reform itself from an institution which was regarded by the Katz commission and the Margo commission as an institution that was in dire need of reform and virtually on the point of collapse, and how under this Government the necessary mechanisms have been brought into place to overhaul the tax administration system, the changes are absolutely phenomenal. Those changes have, no doubt, led to what Judge Dennis Davies referred to as Sars ``glittering performance'' in collecting tax over the last couple of years. It has also been because the taxation basis of this country has changed. Not only have we been able to bring more and more people, who previously did not 14 November 2001 Page 136 of 320 regard themselves as legitimate taxpayers because they believed that the government was an illegitimate regime, into the tax net, but we have also expanded the tax base whilst reducing the individual burden of individual taxpayers. We have expanded the base and reduced the individual burden. This means that we have been able to collect revenues previously unanticipated. I would like to congratulate Sars and the Ministry on performing in a very dedicated and resolute way to overhaul not only the system of our revenue collection, but the entire basis of our taxation system, which has brought us into a new, globalised world as well. [Applause.] The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Barbara Hogan, I hope that you were not planning to extend the tax base to cover the local customs and physical exercises. [Laughter.] Mr K M ANDREW: Mr Chairman, it is always a pleasure to follow the hon Ms Hogan, and I am pleased that 14 November 2001 Page 137 of 320 she has survived the year and is still able to keep standing for 10 minutes. In the time available, there are a few important issues that I would like to cover. The first is the problem of civil society not being given enough time to prepare their comments for the committee hearings. In the past, we in the DP have simply registered our concern, but today I want to elaborate a little. The submissions and evidence of the private sector and civil society are critical to the work of the Portfolio Committee on Finance, particularly in the area of taxation. Much of the legislation that we deal with is extremely complex and one requires the input of experts to be able to evaluate it. For example, one of the 190 clauses in this Bill amends part of the Income Tax Act, and the part it amends is section 9D(9)(h)(ii)(bb). One can imagine how easy that is to follow for people who are not tax experts, which is the case with most of us who are on the committee. 14 November 2001 Page 138 of 320 Private sector organisations have complained repeatedly over the years, to little avail. As our tax legislation has become dramatically more complex over the past two years, the problem has worsened. Let me quote from a submission from Saica, the SA Institute of Chartered Accountants: Saica has been requested to furnish comments on the various budgets of the legislation, which comments were forwarded directly to the commissioner of Sars. The one concern that must be raised relating to the budgets of legislation made available to Saica is the fact that we are only supplied with copies of the draft amendments, and are not privy to the underlying rationale of the commissioner seeking the specific amemdments proposed. As has been pointed out to this honourable committee previously, the commissioner allows a reasonable time for comment in respect of the earlier budgets and as a deadline for finalising the amendment approaches, so the time to comment is reduced. 14 November 2001 Page 139 of 320 We wish to place on record our concern on the extreme deadline placed upon us to submit proper and written comments to this committee on legislation comprising 233 pages. Saica only received the composite version on 10 October 2001, therefore it was not possible for Saica to submit written comments to the committee before the deadline imposed on us. The difficulties that must be noted are that certain sections which were contained in the draft legislation made available to us have now been removed from the composite Bill. Furthermore, certain new sections have now been inserted. It becomes very difficult to comment properly on a Bill of 233 pages where one is unable to readily ascertain which sections are new and which ones have been amended from those previously seen by us. 14 November 2001 Page 140 of 320 They are not alone. Virtually all the private sector bodies share that view. The consequences of rushing into taxation on foreign dividends, residence-based taxation and capital gains tax have been seriously harmful to our economy. The DA warned about the problems likely to be caused by ramming through CGT legislation earlier this year. But, what has happened? I quote again from Sica referring to Schedule 8 of the Act: The CTG was introduced by way of the Schedule 8 in Act 5, promulgated on 28 June 2001. The schedule originally comprised some 86 paragraphs. That schedule was subsequently amended by Act 19 on 27 July 2001. Act 19 amended 11 paragraphs in the Schedule 8. The current Bill under consideration by this committee seeks to amend 52 paragraphs out of the 86 originally contained in the Act. We, as an institute, requested that the date of implementation of the tax be postponed to 1 March 2002, so as to ensure that the legislation would be finalised by the date on which it took effect. 14 November 2001 Page 141 of 320 We believe that it is unfortunate that 52 of the 86 paragraphs dealing with the tax are now being amended, and that such amendments will clearly only be promulgated after the date of implementation on 1 October 2001. In just five months there have had to be three amendments for every four paragraphs in that schedule. On average, 75% of the law has had to be amended in just four months. I do not know whether it is a fuss or a disgrace, or both. What harm has been done by this plethora of new taxes? Firstly, South Africa has become less attractive to skilled foreigners. People we desperately need are being discouraged from settling in South Africa. Retirement funds will once again be adversely affected and small business is being harmed by the introduction of increasingly complex tax legislation. We need to recognise that the best way to raise the most revenue, while reducing individual taxes, is to grow the economy. The sad fact is that the 14 November 2001 Page 142 of 320 combination of new taxes introduced over the past two years will be extremely harmful to our economy. What is sadder still, is that by the time Government wakes up to that fact, much of the damage would already have been done. One may ask: Does Government not see this danger? The answer may well lie in the response given by Sars. Submissions were made to the committee that the starting dates for valuing shares for CGT purposes should be changed because of the negative impact on markets after the 11 September 2001 terrorists attacks. Otherwise, Government would receive an unwarranted windfall of CGT amounting to billions of rands. The response from Sars was that the JSE all-share index is not significantly lower than it was on 1 April 2001 - it is only 6% lower in six months. Only somebody who has a mind-set which says that all shareholders, including pension funds, are rich and should not complain about being fleeced, would suggest that a 6% drop in six months in an 14 November 2001 Page 143 of 320 individual's capital or retirement savings is not significant. That is the mind-set which we are dealing with. That is the mind-set which will deter investors, shackle entrepreneurs and destroy many small and medium enterprises. It is the opposite of the mind- set which South Africa needs to address poverty and unemployment. The DA will be opposing this Bill. Mr H J BEKKER: Chairperson, the Second Revenue Laws Amendment Bill is more than a mouthful. In my 20 years of political representation I have never seen a Bill as thick, long and detailed as this particular one. I wonder whether the Minister wants to confuse us with paperwork. More than 250 pages with 189 amendments to the income tax or revenue laws have been effected. The IFP is in agreement with many of these amendments, but of course, certain concerns will remain with regard to a limited number of these clauses. On the whole, however, we are supportive and the IFP will vote for this Bill. 14 November 2001 Page 144 of 320 Regarding the Bill, I will, in the limited time at my disposal, refer to the following aspects of the amendments - the relaxation of the secrecy provisions in income tax, customs and VAT laws to facilitate prosecution of offenders, particularly drug traffickers and money-launderers. A proviso is that the secrecy provisions could be breached only in the case of a serious offence. A possible legal challenge regarding the right to privacy has been overcome by the insertion of two clauses to protect this particular aspect. The confidentiality of information supplied by taxpayers remains a fundamental principle of taxation. However, Sars should be able to pass on information obtained which reveals evidence of a serious non-tax offence or of an eminent and serious public safety or environmental risk. This is also in line with international trends and in the general public interest, as such disclosure outweighs the potential harm to the taxpayer's concerns, and the IFP is in full agreement with this. 14 November 2001 Page 145 of 320 The Bill also enables Sars to make regulations about dispute procedures in order to prevent costly litigation. In this regard, the Bill allows for pre-trial conferences to establish the issues and to reach a settlement before the matter is referred to a court for taxpayers and tax practitioners. The Bill further provides for tax relief for corporate restructuring, but has come in for heavy criticism regarding the fact that the provisions will apply retroactively from 1 October, although companies will be given until 1 December to take advantage of existing legislation. The Bill makes further amendments to capital gains tax provisions. Some 52 of the original 86 clauses are to be amended. This has led to strong criticism from practitioners because the amendments will only come into force after the tax becomes effective, and that is on 1 December 2001. Furthermore, it could be argued that all capital gains legislation should be consolidated to ensure easier compliance and understanding for taxpayers and tax practitioners. 14 November 2001 Page 146 of 320 The provision dealing with the weighted average training price of listed shares for capital gains tax has also come in for considerable criticism. The argument has been raised that using the five days before 28 September had a distorting effect because of the 11 September attacks on the United States. The terrorist attacks in America led to a general decline in share prices in the latter half of September. Capital gains tax, of course, took effect on 1 October. As of 28 September 2001, the JSE all-share index reflected a 6% decline since 1 April 2001. This represents a significant decline in the rand value of South African shares. With regard to the top 10 shares on the all-share index, this could potentially represent a R2,5 billion windfall for the Minister and Sars. In theory, the decline has presented Sars with an abnormally low base in respect of investors as it represents the difference between the published Sars value and ruling price. Sars indicated that a small investor in unit trusts could utilise his R10 000 annual 14 November 2001 Page 147 of 320 exemption to counter the effect of the artificial gain. The prices of major shares have continued to increase in value since 28 September and, as a result of changing market value on valuation date of listed equities, it will probably benefit Sars to the extent that I have mentioned before. Theoretically, if the terrorist attacks had taken place after 1 October 2001, the contrary, of course, would have been applicable. We understand that the Minister must juggle and play the odds of the shares market. This time he has again won. The IFP nevertheless supports the legislation and we will vote for the Second Revenue Laws Amendment Bill. Dr P J RABIE: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, the Second Revenue Laws Amendment Bill is a very complex piece of legislation, and I think some of the speakers have referred to the fact that it is more than 233 pages long. It is also very complex and an example of the complexity of this 14 November 2001 Page 148 of 320 particular Bill is the numerous amendments that were made to this Bill. In terms of the current legislation, the taxpayer may lodge an appeal against an assessment or certain decisions of the Commissioner to the specially constituted court for hearing income tax appeals. The present procedures followed in the special court are basically those followed in the magistrates' courts. The present procedures have shortcomings, however, with reference to the discovery of documents defining the issues and disputes, etc. This Bill will provide for tax courts, provide for the registrar of the court and grant specific powers to the court to make orders, etc. Provision is made for settlement of disputes. This Bill also provides for an extended Bench when the amount in dispute exceeds R50 million or where the taxpayer and the Commissioner agree thereto that the case may be heard by a component with three judges. The Bill also refers to the writing off of taxes, duties and levies, especially if the recovery of 14 November 2001 Page 149 of 320 the debt will be uneconomical to the state. In line with international best practice, the secrecy provisions are amended so that employees of Sars will be allowed to share information that is in the national interest with other organs of state. I think some of the other speakers, such as the chairperson Ms Barbara Hogan, referred to money- laundering and so forth, and I think that if we want to retain our credit rating, it is very important that we apply this particular Act. Allow me to thank the officials of Sars and the Treasury for allowing all interested parties to respond during a number of public hearings. Their submissions really gave us insight into the complexity of this Bill. A number of valid arguments were raised during the hearings and again I think the Life Offices Association made a very worthy contribution when they specifically referred to paragraph 29 of Schedule 8 where they state that the time-based apportionment and method may preclude the use of the weighted average bases for all listed financial instruments. 14 November 2001 Page 150 of 320 This Bill also allows for capital gains tax relief in respect of transactions between group companies or between founding shareholders and their company. Again, we know that capital gains is very controversial and we feel that some of these regulations referring to capital gains tax will have to be amended in future. The Bill provides for unbundling transactions and transactions relating to the liquidation, winding- up and deregistration of a company. Section 9D(9)(b) were also amended and refer to capital gains in respect of foreign subsidiaries. In a submission during the public hearings of the Portfolio Committee on Finance, it was mentioned that a capital gain may accrue over a number of years. It may be wise, again, to amend this subsection in as far as only the number of whole years and not parts thereof could be taken into account when the capital gain is calculated. In essence, this Bill enables South African business to participate within the global economy, and sections 9D and 9H provide for participant 14 November 2001 Page 151 of 320 exemption where this controlled foreign entity holds more than 25% of the equity share capital in that other foreign entity. This clause will also help to distinguish between active management interest in a foreign company and passive portfolio investment. The New NP supports this Bill. Prof B TUROK: Chairperson, one is really quite flabbergasted at the behaviour of the DP on this occasion. Here is a Bill which in print is 132 pages long, with massive detail, and what does the DP do? It opposes the Bill. I would say that it is clear to me that the motive for the opposition is totally political. [Interjections.] It is totally a political manoeuvre because they are going to go to the public and say that the DP defends the interests of the private sector and the Government does not. That is their reason for the objection. [Interjections.] When one listens to the hon Andrew and the petty objections that he raised here, one can see no reason in principle why the DP should object to this particular Bill. It is a massive Bill, let us 14 November 2001 Page 152 of 320 accept that. It is very complex too, and we have really been through wringer in respect of discussions, assessment and evaluation in the committee. One had hoped that having been through all that, we would all agree that this is a necessary Bill - complex yes, but necessary. One wonders whether the hon Andrew is not being a little disingenuous when he complains about the short timescale in which people could raise objections. We were given to understand by officials and experts that some of the objections and complaints of the short time for response, were actually merely to repeat the arguments which we have been through many times. And in some cases - I will not say all - there was clearly a stalling element in the objections about the time given to people to respond. So I would say that we have been through a very thorough process. The Bill is understood by the committee, that is by those who attended regularly at least, which was not always the hon Andrew, and the Bill must proceed. 14 November 2001 Page 153 of 320 Mr K M ANDREW: He is a liar. Prof B TUROK: Chairperson, on a point of order, I want to ask for your protection. I am being accused of lying, which is unparliamentary. The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Andrew, I heard that and I would like you to withdraw it. Mr K M ANDREW: Certainly, I withdraw. I am sorry, I thought the hon member was still on the ... Prof B TUROK: Let me say to the hon Andrew that it is a blatant ruse to accuse someone of lying and then to withdraw. This is rather petty and should not happen in this Parliament. [Interjections.] Chairperson, I am not going to be harassed by this gentleman because he has no sensible arguments ... [Interjections.] The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Turok, once a member has withdrawn, one may not refer further to that remark. That remark is 14 November 2001 Page 154 of 320 withdrawn. Order! Let us listen to this point of order. The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I accept that, but then the member must not follow it up with another unparliamentary comment by saying that the hon member Turok is telling an untruth. The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, the point is upheld because it is in the best tradition of Parliament that one keeps the decorum and dignity of Parliament. It is not honourable, having withdrawn a comment, to repeat it. If it is withdrawn, it must be withdrawn. And as for the speaker at the podium, the remark that has been withdrawn may not be referred to. So it is applicable to all sides and I trust that hon members will honour the best traditions of Parliament. Prof B TUROK: Chairperson, I think the best way that I can honour that is to say that I will not refer to the hon Andrew in any debate again. Is 14 November 2001 Page 155 of 320 that acceptable? [Applause.] Can I proceed with my speech? In our discussions on taxation in this House, the focus has often been, especially at Budget time, on the rate of taxation that is being applied; who is going to gain and who is not going to gain and so on. The rate of taxation has been the focus. From that flowed a consideration about the South African tax base, and it has been made clear to this House that what is very important for the survival of South Africa and for its efficient running is for the tax base to be maintained and protected. Recently we have had a lot of discussion in the finance committee and in this House about the importance of broadening the tax base. We have had discussions on whether people are paying more. Who is paying more? Are there dodgers? Is there tax evasion or tax avoidance? How does that affect the broadening of the tax base? This Bill takes a slightly different approach, and the essential point made in our discussions and 14 November 2001 Page 156 of 320 briefings is that what is critical is that we need to protect the tax base - not only to broaden it, but to protect it against people who manipulate taxation in many ways. What has also been indicated to us is that this becomes particularly important in the period of globalisation and in the integration of South Africa into the world economy, because this is providing opportunities for people to erode the tax base. Therefore, Sars, rightly, has put this Bill on the table with one of the reasons being that we need to protect the tax base in the period of globalisation. We were informed, as many of us know, that there are countries which give certain concessions in order for them to compete against each other and to compete against South Africa. What is happening is that in some countries there is a race to the bottom of taxation by providing concessions in order to attract foreign investments. We were told that the OECD is, indeed, targeting harmful tax practices which fall in this area of eroding taxation in a variety of countries, particularly emerging market countries, which enables other 14 November 2001 Page 157 of 320 countries to compete for capital investment. They give concessions which, in fact, undermine the tax base of South Africa and other countries. That is what is happening. Of course we are anxious to get foreign investment. This is basic policy and we are doing that. But the principle that has been followed is that if one earns money in South Africa, one should pay tax here before one leaves. This protects the tax base. Because what some fly-by-night businesses are doing is that they come into the country and leave without paying that tax, and so this undermines our tax base. Taxpayers, we are told by Sars, cannot reap the economic benefit of the South African infrastructure and then depart from the country with this accrued benefit without paying their fair share of tax. So what we are saying to the world business community is that by all means, it should come into South Africa, do its work here and accrue the benefits, but it should pay its tax and not leave here before it has done so. This is essential, as I 14 November 2001 Page 158 of 320 say, to protect our tax base. But, of course, foreign investors are also protected in other ways. There are mutual agreements between different countries which give relief abroad so that they do not have to pay twice. I want to refer to the fact that South African taxpayers themselves sometimes behave in an undesirable manner because they have a great deal of liquid capital. The press is often referring to the fact that South African capital flows outside in a way which is unhelpful to the economy. Sometimes funds are shifted abroad to a subsidiary in a tax haven, and at other times the headquarters of a company shifts abroad to a lower tax area. The Treasury has said to us that if we are too restrictive in our taxation, the headquarters will go offshore, if we are too liberal, the companies send their assets offshore. What Sars is trying to do is to have a balanced system, and this is what this Bill is about, to ensure that there are incentives for South African companies to stay onshore, to remain here, so that 14 November 2001 Page 159 of 320 we have the benefit of not only the economic investment, but also the taxes that they pay. Time restricts me from elaborating developing furtheron the issue. [Time expired.] [Applause.] Dr G W KOORNHOF: Mr Chairperson and hon members, with the length of the Bill and its explanatory memorandum, the final Bill amounting to 218 pages, it is unrealistic to discuss it comprehensively in the three minutes allocated to me. Let me therefore highlight four issues that we view as important. Firstly, we applaud the removal of the secrecy provisions regarding the Income Tax Act, the Value-Added Tax Act and the Customs and Excise Act. It is fair that the Commissioner for the SA Revenue Service will now be able to disclose information to the National Commissioner of the SA Police Service and the National Director of Public Prosecutions where such information relates to a serious offence or an imminent and serious public safety risk. Such information can only be disclosed through an order issued by a judge in chambers. 14 November 2001 Page 160 of 320 Secondly, corporate rules in this Bill provide for group relief measures in respect of transactions between group companies or between founding shareholders and their company. These measures cover corporate formations, corporate share-to- share takeovers, corporate liquidations, unbundlings and asset transfers within a single corporate group. Thirdly, there is now a finality regarding the method of determining the market value of shares listed on a securities exchange on valuation date. Not all role-players and people may like this method but at least it will be difficult to manipulate. Fourthly, a new subclause in the Bill aims to permit supplies of goods to industrial development zones, to be made at zero-rate tax. We are in favour of investigating the feasibility of export processing or industrial development zones, and therefore support this new subclause. In conclusion, with the introduction of the complex capital gains tax six weeks ago, together with scores of highly technical amendments since then, 14 November 2001 Page 161 of 320 the situation with regard to the implementation of capital gains tax has become very confusing and complicated. In Afrikaans we say ``dit is 'n deurmekaarspul''. I want to suggest to the Minister and the commissioner that they should consider producing, as soon as possible, a consolidated version of the Schedule 8, dealing with capital gains tax, and distributing it as widely as possible to all stakeholders. Following such a consolidated document must be a layman's guide to capital gains tax, which can become a reference document and must be easy to understand by taxpayers. The UDM supports the Revenue Laws Second Amendment Bill. [Applause.] Mr I S MFUNDISI: Mr Chairperson, the Minister of Finance is always at pains to make life easier for the people of this country and has consequently won the hearts of the international community and ordinary South Africans for the masterly manner in which he handles his portfolio. After he laid down ways and means of bringing poverty to its knees in 14 November 2001 Page 162 of 320 the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, he is now calling on us to allow him to reform tax laws. The Bill seeks to address shortcomings in tax laws on the basis of which the Commissioner for the SA Revenue Service has lost court cases. The current objections and appeals procedures against the SA Revenue Service are roundabout and take a long time to reach a solution. The amendment seeks to bring about a quick process from problem to solution. The new procedure will demand of the Minister to make rules in respect of time-limits that had to be adhered to in dealing with objections. The commissioner will be empowered to write off debts, depending on reasonable steps that are presented to him or her. The fact that to this end the Bench consists of a retired judge, will be improved by having three judges instead. Whatever decisions will be arrived at will be taken by the three judges - a measure that will obviously cut down on the number of appeals to the High Court or even the Supreme Court of Appeal, as is always the case. 14 November 2001 Page 163 of 320 In keeping with our democratic order and our determination to be transparent, the secrecy clauses in the Value-Added Tax Act, the Income Tax Act and the Customs and Excise Act are being toned down in order to allow the SA Revenue Service to disclose information if it is of public interest, as in the event of criminal offences. We appreciate that the release of information will still be controlled as the Minister will still have to give permission on the advice of a judge regarding the need for the release of such information. Information can still be released for statistical purposes and when needed by the SA Reserve Bank. The UCDP supports the Bill. The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, could you conduct your business in whispers. Mr N M NENE: Chairperson, hon members, when this House passed an Act on capital gains tax, it was made abundantly clear that there would be subsequent amendments that would enable us to 14 November 2001 Page 164 of 320 facilitate implementation. The Bill before us today takes us well into the realisation of our dream of a just, fair and equitable tax system. This Bill introduces amendments to about 14 Acts in total, ranging from the Marketable Securities Act of 1948, the Transfer Duty Act of 1949, the Estate Duty Act of 1955, through to the Revenue Laws Amendment Act of 2001. As we have heard from the previous speakers how wide-ranging these amendments are, let me confine myself to some aspects which I feel require some emphasis. After considerable and extensive research, some ways and means have been found to streamline and fast-track the processes around dispute resolution. In terms of the proposed amendments, the legislation will allow for court rules to be made on the procedures for purposes of noting an objection and lodging an appeal. These rules will deal with the time-periods within which and the manner in which an objection and appeal must be noted, as well as the processes to be followed up to the hearing of the appeal in the tax court. 14 November 2001 Page 165 of 320 This legislation will also establish the tax courts which will provide for the Registrar of the Court and grant specific powers to the court to make orders, such as the granting of costs, etc. Currently, the court may not make an order as to costs unless the claim of the commissioner is held to be reasonable or the grounds of appeal are frivolous, or where the decision of the special board is substantially confirmed. Proposals are made that in addition to the above provisions, the following be added: If the appeal is withdrawn or conceded by one of the parties after the date of hearing has been allocated by the registrar, then costs may be awarded. Also, if the hearing of the appeal is postponed at the request of one of the parties, then again costs may be awarded. The regulations will provide for a mechanism to be put in place in order to facilitate the settlement of disputes between the taxpayer and the commissioner. This entails the pre-trial meetings which are made possible by the insertion of section 14 November 2001 Page 166 of 320 107B in the Income Tax Act of 1962, which empowers the Minister of Finance to prescribe the circumstances under which the commissioner may, for purposes of the settlement of any dispute between the commissioner and a taxpayer, waive a claim against that taxpayer in whole or in part. Disputes in excess of R50 million - a lot of speakers have highlighted this - will be dealt with by an extended Bench of three judges. The secrecy provisions have also been touched upon, where taxpayers are currently protected by the secrecy provisions that prohibit Sars from disclosing any information that has come to its knowledge, in order to encourage taxpayers to make full disclosure and to protect the individual's fundamental right to privacy. We have heard how this is being addressed. Sars may disclose information to the Treasury, the Department of Trade and Industry and the Reserve Bank in relation to imports and exports and may also release information to the National Director of Public Prosecutions and the SAPS for law-enforcement purposes. The conditions under which these 14 November 2001 Page 167 of 320 disclosures may be applied are also explained. It can only be disclosed if the safety of the public and the environment are at risk. Also, the public interest must outweigh any potential harm to the taxpayer concerned. There is also a programme called Siyakha, which is intended to make Sars more efficient. We have spoken about this programme in this House on a number of occasions. It has already commenced and is registering tremendous success, both in terms of service delivery and efficiency. Some of the transformation in this initiative is meant to improve capacity to administer capital gains tax. Allow me to invite members and society at large to take advantage of Sars's website and the media advertisements that have been splashed in almost all our print media recently. This has a lot of information on capital gains tax, including how evaluations will work and how this will affect all of us. Internationally capital gains tax regimes provide for varying degrees of relief in respect of 14 November 2001 Page 168 of 320 transactions between group companies and founding shareholders and their companies. This is based on the view that where groups or shareholders retain a substantial interest in the asset transferred, it is appropriate to permit a tax-free transfer of assets. This is, unfortunately, commonly abused for tax avoidance purposes. The proposed legislation, therefore, strikes a balance between the breadth and the concessions and the potential for tax avoidance. Equity has always been at the heart of the introduction of capital gains tax and the consequential amendments only ensure that this ideal is achieved as enshrined in our Constitution and our Freedom Charter. It has also been interesting to note how the opposition has always tried, in this debate and elsewhere, to demonise capital gains tax under a number of pretexts, such as the non-readiness of Sars, the complex nature of the tax and that it will stifle investment. Nothing could be further from the truth. These amendments only serve to finetune that, and we shall continue 14 November 2001 Page 169 of 320 to review and evaluate these Acts in this Parliament led by the mighty ANC. I would like to thank Sars' and the Treasury's officials under the able leadership of the commissioner and the Ministry, respectively, for the commitment and dedication they have demonstrated in producing this piece of legislation under enormous pressure and time constraints. The ANC supports the Bill and commends all who support it, and urges those that do not, to change their minds. [Applause.] The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, hon members, I think we must start by just reminding ourselves that the area of tax law that we are dealing with is always going to be a complex one. This is not about big policy changes, but about trying to deal with practice. And, in dealing with practice, there are always issues. Those who overcomplicate the practice of tax law are always first in the queue at the committee to lobby the changes not be implemented. 14 November 2001 Page 170 of 320 It is a bit disingenuous for Saica to come along and say that we must please not implement those changes when, at the end of the day, it is their members who are at the opposite end of the debate on a day-to-day basis. And so, clearly, it is not a desirable position to bring 190 amendments before a committee, especially at this time of the year, but I really appeal that members of this House should understand that it is an unbelievably complex area, because one is trading off and dealing on a day-to- day basis with the representatives of taxpayers whose one objective is not to pay tax and a receiver charged by law and by this House, in particular, with the task of collecting it. So, it is in that context that these issues arise. In respect of the changes to CGT, firstly, one must go back to the announcement on 21 February last year, and the very intensive and exhaustive negotiations and participation that took place between then and 1 October. But, as the roll-out started, it became clear that there would have to be some adjustments, some of them at the request of the organisations on the other side of the deals. I 14 November 2001 Page 171 of 320 think it is correct to say that the changes that we are effecting here are largely textual, refining those that provide certainty and, in one instance certainly, the provision of further relief. The issue of share values on 1 October was raised and the fact that they were 6% lower than on 1 April. That was only one of the reasons. But it is important that, in the same way as we can see at the other end where there has been manipulation, any manipulation here will be punished. I am sure that many of the organisations who complained about the difference in evaluation, which clearly was not as bad as they suggested that it would be, would not necessarily tell us what the losses were from their global equity funds, which were substantially more than 6%. People go abroad and act with gay abandon, but when it comes to the taxes that must be paid, certainly it becomes an issue. We know that when they tell us that the gold price was 27% higher on 1 October than it was on 1 April. These are issues and I think they arise in 14 November 2001 Page 172 of 320 the context of a stand-off between the need to collect taxes and the refusal to pay taxes. The request raised by the hon Koornhof for simple legislation that is readily available should be considered. The problem is, of course, that what we are talking about is not the big policy issues. The Revenue Law Second Amendment Bill deals, in the main, with the practice issues, and so tends to become dated. But, a simplified and consolidated piece of legislation will be available on the Sars website shortly. Let me again express appreciation to the members of the Portfolio Committee on Finance. They have worked exceedingly hard this year. They brought this final legislation here to this point, and it is the nature of the beast that there would be disagreements about this. I want to thank them very much for the exceedingly hard work in considering this Bill. [Applause.] Debate concluded. 14 November 2001 Page 173 of 320 Bill read a first time (Democratic Pary dissenting). DISABILITY EQUITY (Amendment) The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, before I proceed with the next Order, I want to bring to your attention a publication by the DPSA parliamentary office on the Disability Equity. This is an empowerment tool. It is a book that I would like to commend to you and to your constituencies. REVENUE LAWS SECOND AMENDMENT BILL (Second Reading debate) Order disposed of without debate. Bill read a second time. UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE CONTRIBUTIONS BILL 14 November 2001 Page 174 of 320 (Introduction) The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, hon members, the unemployment ... [Interjections.] I think the sound technicians are on strike. The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Can you hear the hon the Minister? Not yet? The MINISTER: Chairperson, I trust that the House can hear me now. The Unemployment Insurance Contributions Bill is the other part of the Insurance Fund Bill. It allows for collections of unemployment insurance contributions, and it is all about trying to improve on the health of the Unemployment Insurance Fund. The Unemployment Insurance Contributions Bill will address the deficiencies that we have noted in collections and payouts and the real difficulties encountered in balancing the books there, but it will address this deficiency by imposing a stricter 14 November 2001 Page 175 of 320 compliance regime on employers and by transferring the bulk of the collection function to the SA Revenue Service. The link between contributions made by employees and benefits claimed will also assist in detecting defaulting and employers and unwarranted claims. The information required to establish and maintain this link will be collected and held by the Unemployment Insurance Commissioner. I know that we have the interest of members here, and I am told by certain chairpersons of committees that there is a big party and that I should not be too long. So, let me move the Unemployment Insurance Contributions Bill. [Applause.] The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, I am not sure what you are applauding - whether it is the party or the resolution that was adopted earlier on. Bill referred for consideration and report to the Portfolio Committee on Labour in accordance with the resolution adopted by the House today. 14 November 2001 Page 176 of 320 JUDGES' REMUNERATION AND CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYMENT BILL (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon) Order disposed of without debate. Report adopted and Bill agreed to. GAS BILL (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon) Order disposed of without debate. Report adopted and Bill agreed to. INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT AMENDMENT BILL (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon) Order disposed of without debate. Report adopted and Bill agreed to. 14 November 2001 Page 177 of 320 MERCHANDISE MARKS AMENDMENT BILL (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon) Order disposed of without debate. Report adopted and Bill agreed to. LAND AFFAIRS GENERAL AMENDMENT BILL (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon) Order disposed of without debate. Report adopted and Bill agreed to. MARKETING OF AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS AMENDMENT BILL (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon) Order disposed of without debate. Report adopted and Bill agreed to. 14 November 2001 Page 178 of 320 CULTURAL LAWS SECOND AMENDMENT BILL (Consideration of Bill) Order disposed of without debate. Bill agreed to. HOURS OF SITTING OF HOUSE (Announcement) The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I wish to inform hon members that the House will sit at 14:30 tomorrow. The House adjourned at 19:04. __________ ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS ANNOUNCEMENTS: National Assembly: 14 November 2001 Page 179 of 320 1. The Speaker: (1) The Unemployment Insurance Contributions Bill [B 85 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 77) was introduced in the National Assembly by the Minister of Finance on 14 November 2001. In accordance with a resolution passed by the National Assembly on 14 November 2001, the Bill has been referred to the Portfolio Committee on Labour. The Bill has been referred to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160. (2) Bills passed by National Assembly on 14 November 2001: To be submitted to President of the Republic for assent: (i) Judges' Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Bill [B 83B - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75). (ii) Gas Bill [B 18D - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75). 14 November 2001 Page 180 of 320 (iii) Industrial Development Amendment Bill [B 32D - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 76). (iv) Merchandise Marks Amendment Bill [B 33D - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75). (v) Land Affairs General Amendment Bill [B 71D - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75). (vi) Marketing of Agricultural Products Amendment Bill [B 26D - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 76). (3) Message from National Council of Provinces to National Assembly: Bills, subject to proposed amendments, passed by National Council of Provinces on 14 November 2001 and transmitted for consideration of Council's proposed amendments: 14 November 2001 Page 181 of 320 (i) Telecommunications Amendment Bill [B 65B - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75) (for proposed amendments, see Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, p 1282). The Bill has been referred to the Portfolio Committee on Communications of the National Assembly for a report on the amendments proposed by the Council. (ii) Pension Funds Second Amendment Bill [B 41B - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75) (for proposed amendments, see Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, p 1377). The Bill has been referred to the Portfolio Committee on Finance of the National Assembly for a report on the amendments proposed by the Council. (iii) Unemployment Insurance Bill [B 3B - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75) 14 November 2001 Page 182 of 320 (for proposed amendments, see Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, p 1378). The Bill has been referred to the Portfolio Committee on Labour of the National Assembly for a report on the amendments proposed by the Council. TABLINGS: National Assembly and National Council of Provinces: Papers: 1. The Minister of Public Works: Written explanation, dated 12 November 2001, from the Department of Public Works in terms of section 65(2)(a) of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999), setting out the reasons why the department 14 November 2001 Page 183 of 320 could not table its Annual Report and Financial Statements for 2000-2001 in time: Dear Mr Mfenyana This Memorandum serves to inform the Parliament that the Department of Public Works is unable to table the 2001 annual report as per provisions of section 40(1)(d) of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 and Regulation 111J of the Public Service Regulations, 1999 (as amended). National Treasury Guidelines for Annual Reporting (December 2000) directs that the annual report should include audit reports. Due to outstanding issues, of material nature, the Auditor-General has not finalised the Department of Public Works' audit report. In view of the above, the tabling of the report during the current sitting of Parliament is not possible. 14 November 2001 Page 184 of 320 We hope for the Parliament's indulgence in this regard. Regards, TAMI SOKUTU DIRECTOR-GENERAL 2. The Minister of Trade and Industry: (a) Report and Financial Statements of the Department of Trade and Industry for 2000- 2001, including the Report of the Auditor- General on the Financial Statements of Vote 32 - Trade and Industry for 2000-2001. (b) Report and Financial Statements of the Competition Commission for 2000-2001, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2000-2001 [RP 150-2001]. 3. The Minister of Health: 14 November 2001 Page 185 of 320 (1) Government Notice No R.691 published in Government Gazette No 22495 dated 27 July 2001, Regulations relating to additives for use in food in general in accordance with good manufacturing practice, made in terms of section 15(1) of the Foodstuffs, Cosmetics and Disinfectants Act, 1972 (Act No 54 of 1972). (2) Government Notice No R.723 published in Government Gazette No 22549 dated 10 August 2001, Regulations regarding processed foodstuffs, made in terms of section 15(1) of the Foodstuffs, Cosmetics and Disinfectants Act, 1972 (Act No 54 of 1972). (3) Government Notice No R.747 published in Government Gazette No 22563 dated 17 August 2001, Amendment of regulations governing microbiological standards for foodstuffs and related matters, made in terms of section 15(1) of the Foodstuffs, Cosmetics 14 November 2001 Page 186 of 320 and Disinfectants Act, 1972 (Act No 54 of 1972). (4) Government Notice No R.911 published in Government Gazette No 22694 dated 28 September 2001, Regulations governing certain solvents in foodstuffs, made in terms of section 15(1) of the Foodstuffs, Cosmetics and Disinfectants Act, 1972 (Act No 54 of 1972). (5) Government Notice No R.765 published in Government Gazette No 22584 dated 24 August 2001, Regulations relating to the conduct of enquiries into alleged unprofessional conduct, made in terms of section 61(1)(h) read with section 61(4) of the Health Professions Act, 1974 (Act No 56 of 1974). (6) Government Notice No R.887 published in Government Gazette No 22673 dated 21 September 2001, Regulations relating to the suspension of practitioners, made in terms of section 61(1) read with section 14 November 2001 Page 187 of 320 15B(1)(a) of the Health Professions Act, 1974 (Act No 56 of 1974). National Assembly: 1. The Speaker: Report of the Investigating Teams into the Arms Deal. (1) Referred to the - (a) Portfolio Committee on Defence for consideration of matters falling within its portfolio, and in particular Chapters 3-7 and 10-12, and for report on the relevant findings and recommendations; (b) Portfolio Committee on Finance for consideration of matters falling within its portfolio, and in particular Chapter 9, and for report on the relevant findings and recommendations; 14 November 2001 Page 188 of 320 (c) Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development for consideration of matters falling within its portfolio, and in particular Chapter 13, and for report on the relevant findings and recommendations; (d) Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration for consideration of matters falling within its portfolio, and in particular Chapter 10, and for report on the relevant findings and recommendations; (e) Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry for consideration of matters falling within its portfolio, and in particular Chapter 12, and for report on the relevant findings and recommendations; (f) Standing Committee on Public Accounts for consideration of matters within its area of competence and for report on 14 November 2001 Page 189 of 320 the relevant findings and recommendations; and (g) Joint Committee on Ethics and Members' Interests in so far as it relates to members of Parliament. (2) The committees to report by not later than 6 December 2001. (3) The report is also forwarded to the Executive for such action as necessary. The report is also available from Parliament's website http://www.parliament.gov.za COMMITTEE REPORTS: National Assembly: 1. Eleventh Report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, dated 31 October 2001: 14 November 2001 Page 190 of 320 The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having heard and considered evidence on the Report of the Auditor-General on the financial statements of Vote 15 - Health for the year ended 31 March 2000 [RP 124-2000], and certain papers referred to it, reports as follows: A. Financial management and PFMA 1. Fraud Prevention Plan The Committee took cognisance of the process to develop a Fraud Prevention Plan, and also of the establishment of a fraud hotline. Nevertheless, the Committee recommends that everything possible be done to implement the proposed Fraud Prevention Plan by 31 December 2001 and to report back to the Committee on the successful implementation of the Fraud Prevention Plan. 14 November 2001 Page 191 of 320 2. Audit Committee The Committee took note that the Audit Committee is fully functioning in the Department. The Committee, having been made aware of the investigation into the UNISA Board, recommends that the Department consider the appropriateness of members of the Audit Committee when the membership of the Audit Committee is reviewed during 2002. 3. Internal audit The Committee noted that, after revision of the Internal Audit structure, the staff establishment of the Internal Audit Unit comprised of 13 posts, of which only five are filled at present. Furthermore, the Committee also took note that the Head of the Internal Audit Unit of the Department 14 November 2001 Page 192 of 320 is involved in the Internal Audit Unit of the Department of Public Service and Administration and in a project with the Internal Audit Sections of all other government departments and provinces. It came to the attention of the Committee that the Internal Audit Unit lacked capacity and that the Department's major problem is the recruitment of staff. Whilst supporting the notion of best practice sharing between departments, the Committee wishes to register that this practice should not be allowed to impact on the effectiveness of the principal department. The Committee further took note of the Accounting Officer's concern about the limited financial management expertise available in the public sector. Given the implementation of the Public 14 November 2001 Page 193 of 320 Finance Management Act (PFMA), this expertise is becoming available only at a premium that may not be affordable in terms of the public sector salary scales. The Committee recommends that the Accounting Officer: (a) Persevere with the actions aimed at improved financial management, specifically in bringing the Internal Audit Component up to full strength and ensuring continuation of professional training for relevant staff. The Accounting Officer should seek advice from the Monitoring Unit: Internal Audit and Audit Committees, established within the Office of the Accountant-General, on the adequacy of the staffing of the Department's Internal Audit 14 November 2001 Page 194 of 320 Unit in terms of generally accepted benchmarks, and should report to the Committee in this regard by 31 December 2001. (b) Ensure that staff of the Internal Audit Unit be utilised only at other departments if there is no lack of capacity in their own auditing environment, both in respect of auditing and supervision. 4. Asset management After considering evidence presented by the Department, the Committee took cognisance of the fact that the National Treasury is reviewing the current systems to address the needs of departments. The Committee therefore recommends that the National Treasury increase 14 November 2001 Page 195 of 320 resources to speed up the process and that the Department of Health implement interim measures to improve the other control measures. B. Sarafina II The issue has taken a long time to be satisfactorily resolved - it started in 1995. However, it is the Committee's view that appropriate measures should be taken to bring this issue to a close. After giving due consideration to all the information on the matter regarding the unauthorised expenditure emanating from the Sarafina II saga, as well as considering a comprehensive report from the Accounting Officer, as requested during the hearing of 29 August 2001, and consulting with the Parliamentary Law Advisers, the Committee wish to note the following: 14 November 2001 Page 196 of 320 1. From the unauthorised amount of R10 519 202,30 that was paid, an amount of R2 211 138,79 was recovered and a further amount of R8 308 063,51 remains outstanding. 2. As some form of services were rendered, it is important to determine the approximate amount which should be regarded as either fruitless or wasteful expenditure and which has to be recovered. 3. The findings of all the investigations indicate a serious lack of financial discipline and control, amounting to negligence, on the part of the two individuals concerned. 4. Action could have been taken by the Accounting Officer to prevent, or at least reduce, the extent of the unauthorised expenditure. 14 November 2001 Page 197 of 320 5. Until the date of adoption of this Report, an amount of R576 595,59 has already been spent on legal costs in an attempt to recover the loss suffered by the State. 6. Work conducted by investigating agencies such as the Public Protector, the KPMG Forensic Auditors and the Special Investigating Unit was of great help in identifying serious irregularities and unauthorised expenditure. 7. Sufficient measures and actions were not taken by the Department to recover the money from the two individuals concerned. 8. Directors-General are appointed as accounting officers, and as such have a very specific and direct responsibility to act as custodian of tax-payers' money. 14 November 2001 Page 198 of 320 9. Parliament is tasked with the responsibility to authorise unauthorised expenditure if sufficient grounds exist and evidence indicates that the circumstances which gave rise to the unauthorised expenditure, were both urgent and unavoidable. 10. The asset base of those responsible for the expenditure might be insufficient to recover the full amount lost. 11. In the opinion of the Parliamentary Law Advisers, grounds exist, on the merits, to obtain a judgement against the individuals responsible for the unauthorised expenditure. It is the Committee's firm belief that Parliament does not only have a mandate to oversee financial management compliance, but must be seen to be guarding the best interest of tax-payers and the most 14 November 2001 Page 199 of 320 effective and efficient use of limited state resources. The Committee therefore recommends that: (a) The Department immediately proceed with legal steps with the objective of securing judgement against the individuals concerned. (b) The type of judgement provide the State with an extended period of right to recover the money from the individuals concerned, as was the case with the GCIS recently. (c) The State attorneys endavour to secure a cost judgement. (d) The Department proceed with the above action within the shortest possible timeframe,and report back to the Committee by notlater than the end of February 2002. 14 November 2001 Page 200 of 320 C. Protein Energy Malnutrition Scheme The Department has been involved in various projects to alleviate malnutrition and improve nutrition among South African children since 1991. The Auditor-General has been reporting on weaknesses in the programmes since 1994. Problems identified included the following: 1. A lack of supporting vouchers. 2. Inadequate monitoring procedures. 3. Failure to comply with standards prescribed by the Department. On 1 August 1995 the President appointed a Commission of Inquiry into the Protein Energy Malnutrition Scheme. The Commission consisted of three persons and was appointed specifically to look into the allocation of contracts, expenditure on contracts and the supervision of the 14 November 2001 Page 201 of 320 Protein Energy Malnutrition and other related schemes. The Committee is, however, disturbed about the costs incurred in respect of the Commission that amounted to R9 156 377 as at 31 March 2000, as well as the failure of the Department's adherence to the recommendations of the Commission. Having received the "Summary of the report by the Commission of Inquiry into the Protein Energy Malnutrition Scheme and other Nutrition Programmes and Feeding Schemes administered by the National Department of Health", and given its awareness of problems experienced currently with the implementation of nutrition schemes, the Committee recommends that it be informed about the implementation of the recommendations made by the Commission with regard to: (a) The efficient handling of all matters of fraud or mismanagement in each province. 14 November 2001 Page 202 of 320 (b) The blacklisting of individuals who were incriminated in the programmes and a register to be kept preventing them from conducting business with any programme in any province. (c) Programmes on strengthening human and institutional capacity to reduce the unacceptably high levels of childhood malnutrition in South Africa. The Committee requests a report on these matters by the end of January 2002. Report to be considered. 2. Twelfth Report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, dated 31 October 2001: The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having heard and considered evidence on the Reports of the Auditor-General on the financial statements of Vote 37 - Welfare for the year ended 31 March 1999 [RP 161-99] and Vote 36 - 14 November 2001 Page 203 of 320 Welfare for the year ended 31 March 2000 [RP 145-2000], and certain papers referred to it, reports as follows: A. Unauthorised expenditure 1. 1998-99 financial year, R173 551,50 Unauthorised expenditure amounting to R173 551,50 was incurred during the 1998-99 financial year, and comprises the following: (a) An amount of R135 859,50 was paid during August 1998 to a company for a radio advertising campaign to introduce the new Child Support Grant without adhering to tender procedures. (b) An amount of R37 692 was paid for the extension of the contract, without prior approval from the State Tender Board, for a 14 November 2001 Page 204 of 320 consultant to assist the Department with the re-registration and clean- up process with regard to the Social Security function. 2. 1999-2000 financial year, R223 969 Unauthorised expenditure totaling R223 969 was incurred and comprises the following: (a) An amount of R187 375 was paid from donor funding in respect of contracts concluded with individuals from non-governmental organisations, who were involved in developing quality assurance pilot projects within residential care facilities during the period January to December 1999. Proper tender procedures had not been followed and the State Tender Board declined a request for ex post facto approval. 14 November 2001 Page 205 of 320 (b) An amount of R36 594 was paid for catering services at the National Conference on Victim Empowerment. Although the State Tender Board granted ex post facto approval for the expenditure, proper departmental procedures had not been followed. Although the Committee is satisfied with the explanations provided by the Accounting Officer regarding each instance of unauthorised expenditure reported and the efforts of the Department to train staff to deal with matters according to the correct procurement procedures, the Committee express its dissatisfaction at the Department's disregard for State Tender Board directives. It is unacceptable that rules and regulations are contravened, even in cases where the projects achieve a desirable objective. 14 November 2001 Page 206 of 320 In expressing the above sentiments, the Committee notes that with regard to the unauthorised expenditure for the years mentioned, the following issues need to be borne in mind: *Technical non-compliance. *Services/goods were rendered/received. *Value for money was received. *The State suffered no loss. The Committee therefore recommends that the unauthorised expenditure for the 1998-99 financial year (R173 551,50) and for the 1999-2000 financial year (R223 969) be authorised by Parliament. B. Financial management The Committee wishes to commend the Department on the drastic and dramatic 14 November 2001 Page 207 of 320 improvement in the general and financial management of the Department. Nevertheless, the Committee wishes to report on the following matters dealt with during the hearing, which the Accounting Officer should attend to: 1. Fraud Prevention Plan The Committee took note that the policy document was submitted to the Audit Committee during May 2001 and that the Department is awaiting their comment. It is recommended that the Department report back to the Committee by 31 December 2001 on comments by the Audit Committee and implementation of the Fraud Prevention Plan. 2. Risk assessment 14 November 2001 Page 208 of 320 The Committee took note that consultants were contracted during September 2000, as part of the existing Financial Management Expert Contract, to conduct a risk assessment for the Department. The Committee recommends that a comprehensive report be submitted to it by 31 December 2001 on the outcomes of the risk assessment and the measures implemented. 3. Financial Management Expert Contract The Committee is encouraged by the establishment of the Steering Committee to oversee the contract, and by the fact that the consultants have to report every six weeks on progress made. The Committee also noted the measures already implemented on national as well as provincial level on recommendations by the consultants. 14 November 2001 Page 209 of 320 However, the Committee recommends that the Accounting Officer ensure that: (a) The contract be revised according to the requirements of the PFMA. (b) The requirements regarding the skills transfer are adhered to. (c) The matter regarding the capacity constraints in the provinces, as a matter of urgency, be addressed to prevent the undermining of the effectiveness of the contract. (d) The process and progress made by the consultants in the Western Cape be properly monitored and that the norms and standards, as set by the national department, be adhered to. C. Asset management 14 November 2001 Page 210 of 320 The Committee took note that the Department only implemented the LOGIS system during May 2000, and is in the process of finalising specification for the appointment of a service provider to number all individual assets of the Department with item control numbers. The Committee would like to bring to the attention of the Accounting Officer that, since the implementation of the PFMA, the responsibility, should there be any deficits or surplus stock, is that of the Accounting Officer. The Committee therefore recommends that: 1. The Accounting Officer adhere to section 38(1)(d) of the PFMA and Treasury Regulation 10.1. 2. A comprehensive report be submitted to the Committee by the end of the 2001-02 financial year on the progress made 14 November 2001 Page 211 of 320 with regard to the safeguarding of all departmental assets. D. Unspent funds With regard to the unspent funds, the Committee notes the following: 1. During the 1998-99 financial year, the overall underspending in the Department was 78,5% and underspending regarding poverty relief funds, was 97%. 2. During the 1999-2000 financial year, the overall underspending in the Department was 24,1% and underspending regarding poverty relief funds, was 15,3%. Having noted this, the Committee is acknowledging the improvement in the ability of the Department to spend the budgeted amount in the financial year. However, the Committee remains concerned 14 November 2001 Page 212 of 320 whether the money actually reaches the intended beneficiaries and that value for money is received. The Committee further took note that the Accounting Officer has recognised that it is critical to exercise appropriate control over these payments and that such control should not be obviated by the autonomy of the receiving institutions. The Committee therefore recommends that: (a) The need for training in financial management and project management with communities be addressed as a matter of urgency. (b) The envisaged monitoring system be put in place and that the process of evaluation include mechanisms to assess whether value for money is received from the funds made available for poverty relief. 14 November 2001 Page 213 of 320 (c) A comprehensive report be submitted to the Committee by the end of the 2001-02 financial year on the matters raised in the above paragraphs. Report to be considered. 3. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs on Illegal Zimbabwean farm labour in Soutpansberg, dated 13 November 2001: 1. A delegation of the Committee undertook an oversight visit to the Soutpansberg agricultural area on Monday, 5 November 2001. The delegation, under the leadership of Mr A Mokoena (ANC), included Chief K W Morwamoche (ANC), Mr W M Skhosana (ANC), Mr M M Chikane (ANC), Mr G A J Grobler (DP), Prince N E Zulu (IFP) and Mr J Vermeulen (Committee Secretary). 2. The aim of the visit was to get a better understanding, with a view to offer possible solutions to the problem of 14 November 2001 Page 214 of 320 illegal Zimbabwean labourers working on farms in the area between the Limpopo River and the Soutpansberg. 3. On Monday, 5 November, the delegation met with the following members of the Soutpansberg District Agricultural Union: Mr Joubert, Mr Klaf, Mr Langley, Mr Meiring, Mr Combrink, Mr Vos and Mr Hoffman. Mr M V Mabunda: Regional Representative: Home Affairs in the Northern Province, chaired the meeting. 4. The delegation had very open and fruitful discussions with the farmers, who handed our delegation a memorandum. The main points were: (a) The farmers had the impression that there was an implicit agreement between the government and the Soutpansberg District Agricultural Union to allow Zimbabwean workers in a controlled way to work on farms in the area, because 14 November 2001 Page 215 of 320 of the fact that, owing to the demographics of the population in the area, there are no South Africans to work on the farms. (b) At the end of 1999, a moratorium was placed on the renewal and granting of permits to Zimbabwean labourers. This signalled the start of problems between the farmers and the government. (c) The assumption by the Department of Labour that there are enough local people who would like to work on the farms, has never been tested in practice. (d) Most attempts by farmers to secure local labour was costly and unsuccessful. Local labour should be attainable and sustainable, and farmers must be able to count on them. Until now, this has not been the case, as especially local women traditionally 14 November 2001 Page 216 of 320 work their own crops in respect of subsistence farming. The women also find it difficult to be away from home for long periods of time, as they must raise their children. (e) The Soutpansberg District Agricultural Union recorded its willingness to form part of a committee to investigate real solutions to the problems. 5. The Committee recommends that a task team comprising organised agriculture, the Department of Labour, the Department of Home Affairs, the Security Forces, organised labour, local municipalities, district councils and the Provincial Government be established to find common solutions to farm labour crises in the area north of the Soutpansberg and south of the Zimbabwe border. 6. The Committee will exercise oversight over the entire process. 14 November 2001 Page 217 of 320 Report to be considered. 4. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Education on Study Tour to Cuba, dated 6 November 2001: A. Introduction A delegation of the Portfolio Committee on Education undertook a study tour to Cuba from 6 to 16 July 2001, with the following mandate: 1. Objectives of tour In a meeting on 3 April 2001, the Committee unanimously agreed that a multiparty delegation undertake a study visit to Cuba, with the following objectives: (a) To investigate factors that allow the successful implementation of already developed education policies in manners that ensure 14 November 2001 Page 218 of 320 success at institutions on the ground and later in the workplace and in the country's economy. (b) To identify manners in which the two countries can overcome the challenges that globalisation brings to their common ideological and economic goals. The visit to Cuba was not only one that intended to observe and learn from one's hosts, but also to engage with them about problems faced during the incredibly difficult and complex phases of implementing transformative policies. 2. Specific interest As far as the development of implementable transformative policies is concerned, Cuba stands out above the rest of the world. It has thus been 14 November 2001 Page 219 of 320 earmarked by the Committee as the best example of how well implemented transformative education policies can ensure that a poor or developing country can make an educational, technological and scientific impact that places it on an equal or, in some respects, higher level than most advanced countries of the world, despite the problems that globalisation may pose to it. The Committee was aware that such a visit would not only be in line with the existing "Agreement of Educational Collaboration between the Ministries of Education", signed in Havana on 8 April 1997, but intended to strengthen that bilateral link with our Cuban counterparts. Again, the Committee needed to observe what it is that enables higher participation rates for all learners in Cuba and hasten to make our Adult Basic Education, Early 14 November 2001 Page 220 of 320 Childhood and literacy initiatives a reality in South Africa through serious scrutiny of its implementation. The agreements signed after the first democratic election in 1994 included: (a) The Declaration of Intent on Co- operation in Health: 463 medical doctors from Cuba have since been assigned to work in the most rural and previously unserviced areas. About 185 students are currently studying in Cuba. (b) An announcement made by the Minister of Education in April 2001, that Cuba would be sending their teachers to South Africa to help the country in the areas of mathematics, science and technology. 3. Delegation 14 November 2001 Page 221 of 320 The multiparty delegation, under the leadership of the Chairperson, Prof S M Mayatula (ANC), included Ms P K Mothoagae (ANC), Mr S B Ntuli (ANC), Ms D G Nhlengethwa (ANC), Mr A M Mpontshane (IFP), Mr R S Ntuli (DP) and Ms N C Manjezi (Committee Secretary). An attempt was made to obtain a valued balanced view, with inputs from various sources, like the Minister of Education, Minister of Higher Education, Minister of Foreign Relations, senior officials from the university sector, executive management, directors in various institutions of higher learning and teachers. On arrival on 7 July 2001 at Jose Marti International Airport in Havana, the delegation was warmly welcomed by Ms A Hanslop (First Secretary) and Ms P 14 November 2001 Page 222 of 320 Rapudi (Administrative Attaché) from the South African Embassy. B. Education system in Cuba The key element identified by our "Tirisano" policy document is the eradication of illiteracy. The success of Cuba is lauded worldwide as an incredible phenomenon - the education system forms the foundation on which its success in science, technology and medical education is based. After its revolution, 50% of Cuba's children did not attend school; 72% of the 13- to 19-year-olds did not reach intermediate levels of schooling, and there were more than one million people who were illiterate, In the mid-1990s there were 241 000 illiterates out of a population of 11 million. Right through all phases of its education system, Cuba has placed a high value on relating study and work. In a classically 14 November 2001 Page 223 of 320 Marxist formulation of praxis, education emphasises the holistic development of the "new human being" to be achieved by relating study and work through lifelong education programmes that involve students, youth in working and workers in study and reflection. Cuba's education system has goals directly related to the economic development of the nation. The education system was called upon to prepare a technically proficient population capable of drastically altering the traditionally hostile attitudes toward science, technology and modern agricultural methods. They have successfully implemented a policy to ensure that school management is guided by the principle that education is everybody's responsibility, and participation is an important means of addressing problems of the school. They strongly believe in their slogans "Read and write to defend the revolution" and "We 14 November 2001 Page 224 of 320 won't tell you to believe but we will tell you to learn". Although Cuba is one of the poorest countries in Latin-America, it is accredited for its high literacy around the world. Despite crippling trade embargoes imposed by the USA, the country has managed to keep the illiteracy rate at very low levels. Students receive education, food, learner support materials, clothing and transport free of charge. At university level students receive an additional allowance for personal expenditure. The results of mathematics and science of the latest UNESCO comparison of mathematics and language test scores in Latin-America found Cuba's third grades to have an average of 83,1% in respect of mathematics and 87,4% in respect of the language examinations, compared with the next 14 November 2001 Page 225 of 320 highest national scores (Argentina), at 47,3% and 60,7 in respect of the same examinations, respectively. Central to the country's aim to ensure the African Renaissance is policy guidelines aimed at improving achievements at schools and universities in mathematics, science and technology. Science and technology are highly prized in Cuba today. Due to its high quality of medical services, neighbouring countries (like the Dominican Republic) are travelling to Cuba for medical treatment or surgery. This also bears testament to the achievement of its higher education sector. University majors in the sciences, including the health sciences, require the most competitive examination scores for entering new students. This is consistent with aims set out in South African education legislation and policies. The importance of mathematics teaching as a 14 November 2001 Page 226 of 320 prerequisite to the advanced study of science and technology cannot be overstated as forming the backbone of Cuba's excellent record in the medical, veterinary and pharmaceutical fields. C. Visit to Museum of Literacy Campaign - official view by Professor of History, Prof L Campos Despite doubts cast by numerous personalities and organisations abroad, the Revolutionary Government embarked on campaigns to eradicate illiteracy in one year: From January to December 1961. In January 1961, a call was made to the young population and workers to learn to read and write. When Pres Fidel Castro made his call in the UN headquarters, they were prepared to eradicate illiteracy. Fidel Castro wrote a manifesto, specifying all the programmes and problems in education, including 14 November 2001 Page 227 of 320 housing and unemployment, as a great number of children did not attend school. Private teaching and education was made compulsory for all. When the campaign ended on 22 December 1961, they called for education for workers in Cuba. Of a population of seven million, approximately 100 000 teachers, the youngest seven years old, volunteered to go to all corners of the island to teach people to read and write as most illiterates were from the rural areas. The basic principle was to be a volunteer, to teach or to learn voluntarily, and everything was done for free. Most teachers had to be trained, because the majority of them were not really teachers. Basic education was up to Grade 9. There were counter-revolutionary forces, and some teachers were killed, but this did 14 November 2001 Page 228 of 320 not deter the Cubans, and campaigns continued as planned. The voluntary teachers were organised in detachments, which later became known as the "Conrado Bernitez" Brigades, in honour of the youngest teacher (a seven-year-old), who had been assassinated by counter- revolutionary bandits. These brigades were with another 120 000 ordinary Cubans and 12 700 young workers, who also volunteered to go and teach - an educational force that was trained and pedagogically supervised by close to 35 000 certified teachers. This singular effort mobilised nearly 300 000 people. The museum is the largest in Cuba. Today, they are celebrating 40 years of country literacy. If a person does not have Computer Sscience, then according to Pres Fidel Castro he or she is illiterate. 14 November 2001 Page 229 of 320 The mission of the voluntary teachers demanded a great deal of understanding, sacrifice, will-power and resistance, both from young educators and from their parents. Many of the adolescents who took part in the campaigning had never been away from their homes. Now they found themselves living in remote rural areas, having to spend the whole year among people they did not know and who generally had lifestyles and customs different from theirs. They had to share the poverty in which many of their hosts lived, and in some cases helped them, after class, with the daily work. Adults provided labour during the day and went to school in the evening. Children attended during the day. Although there was a huge reaction from people joining the campaign, unions played a very vital role. 14 November 2001 Page 230 of 320 Today, one per cent of illiterate people in Cuba are those who did not learn during the campaign. They have educational programmes broadcast on television - Cuban History, Cuban Geography, Science, Spanish, etc, and children are always encouraged to watch these exciting programmes. Support During the year of the campaign, there was solidarity and great help from the Chinese and German governments, and the Cuban people gave huge support. The German government donated spectacles to those with eye problems, and those needing health care were identified. The Chinese government contributed paraffin lamps for evening classes, as there was no electricity then. They also received support from the Balkan States (human and material resources). This showed that Cuba was not alone. 14 November 2001 Page 231 of 320 They also received students from different countries like Spain, France and Russia, to teach in Cuba, although Cuba was regarded as a socialist country. Tour around museum At the main entrance there is a big picture of Commander-in-Chief Fidel Castro, taken in 1960 at the headquarters of the UN. The delegation also saw documents, letters and personal belongings of the teachers who were participants during the campaign (letters are kept for records and research to help children who want to be teachers); a photo, identity document and a shirt of the seven-year-old assassinated during the campaign; letters which were sent to Pres Fidel Castro, literature (samples of learner curricula, guides and letters to the President, thanking him for the opportunity to read and write). 14 November 2001 Page 232 of 320 D. Visit to School for Disabled Children, "Abel Santamaria" - official view by Director of School, Ms L D Carballo Gonzalez There are 427 special schools in Cuba, 14 schools for deaf children, schools for those with impaired hearing, schools for retarded children and one school for handicapped children. All these schools are transit schools, except the one for retarded children. This was the only school until 1990, and at present there are 14 more of them in different provinces. The school is a brick structure, with 69 teachers and 220 students. Before the revolution, they had to admit these disabled students up to the age of 33 years, but now they have a limited average of 13 years of age. All teachers are college graduates, and eight of them have Masters Degrees in Education. They are all trained in the teaching methods they should 14 November 2001 Page 233 of 320 use. Teachers in the public schools are not trained for special education. The basic aim of the school is to give diagnostic therapy in preparation for entry in ordinary schools. Special schools are aimed to train teachers to achieve social integration for disabled people. Although the integration theory is handled worldwide, children at these schools need specialised help. These schools need an integral teacher who can use sign language and apply psychology when encountering behavioural problems. The Department of Health's Diagnosis Team is composed of dieticians, psychologists, physicians assessing learners for albinism and determining extent of deafness, blindness, physical disability and make recommendations. They diagnose every child's achievements, the community in which the child lives, the 14 November 2001 Page 234 of 320 families from which the child comes, and family support for the development of their children. Psychologists and language therapists do all the work, as well as family doctors trained in that field. In the school they diagnose the learning process and problems during the learning process, as the parents should know the characteristics of their children's disabilities. If the retardedness is severe, they receive family protection and social security. There is great support from parents in this process - they teach them to learn and communicate with them in their communities. They also communicate with hospitals to educate parents and to give proper care for those at home unable to attend school. Once they complete special education, they are transferred to ordinary schools, but this depends on the nature of the 14 November 2001 Page 235 of 320 disability, and some are kept back until ready for university. They can go to secondary schools and universities and pursue technical careers. At present, five of their students are studying at Havana University, pursuing a career in psychology. Learner material used to be bought overseas and was very expensive, but now Cuba is producing them locally at a cheaper price. Students are given these educational learning materials free of charge at all levels, including special schools. Computer literacy is a high priority, as they are given computer lessons. Although they have difficulty in teaching blind and deaf students, they conduct special physical rehabilitation, language therapy, technological and physical programmes as well as psychological treatment. Most of them are involved in 14 November 2001 Page 236 of 320 sport like swimming, chess and golf for the blind. In Cuba, all the children have the right to education, and all parents want their children to be educated. It is against the law not to send children with special needs to school. Parents are fined if found guilty by the Council of Education of the People's Power or the Police. Tour around school The delegation was given an opportunity to tour the school to see the classrooms for blind children, where there are brail material manufactured in Cuba. E. Meeting with Commission on Education, Science and Culture (or People's Power National Assembly) - official view by Chairperson of Commission, Hon L C Fabelo 14 November 2001 Page 237 of 320 The People's Power National Assembly is the supreme body of State power, and it embodies and expresses the sovereign will of the people at large. It is the only body with constitutional and legislative powers in the Republic. The unicameral Parliament of Cuba is composed of 601 deputies, directly elected for a term of five years. Among its powers is the power to pass partial amendments to the Constitution of the Republic; pass, change or repeal laws; revoke Decree Laws that have been passed by the Council of State; adopt national economic and social development plans and the State budget; declare a state of war in case of military aggression and approve peace treaties; appoint the Council of Ministers; elect the Chief Justice and Deputy Chief Justices and other Justices of the People's Supreme Court and the Attorneys-General of the Republic. 14 November 2001 Page 238 of 320 Workings commissions of People's Power National Assembly The National Assembly creates working commissions that work all year round and are made up of deputies and whose function is to assist it with the supervision of State and government bodies; with the writing of draft law agreements and with taking decisions on the drafts that are put for their consideration, as well as doing the studies they are commissioned to undertake. Furthermore, the Assembly can create temporary commissions, taking into account the specific interests in various spheres of the country's social and economic life. The Commission on Education, Science and Culture is constituted by education, arts, science and culture, and a range of professors (teachers) are also represented in the Commission. It sits twice a year and 14 November 2001 Page 239 of 320 plays a vital role in respect of the functions of the Assembly. Every year, this Commission plans activities to fulfil its objectives; suggests budgets and implements its work and finances; looks at legislation and take decisions on all bodies of the old Commission. They also invite the Ministers of Economic Planning and Finance to look at the impact of the Budget on the National Assembly. They also have public hearings and involve different sectors to discuss issues and to carry out tasks and define legislation. Cubans do not claim to have achieved a level of democratic development that cannot be surpassed. On the contrary, various important innovations have been introduced to the system, to its methods and mechanisms, and they are making constant efforts to improve it. Achieving full, true and systematic participation by the people in the management and control of society - 14 November 2001 Page 240 of 320 which is the essence of democracy - is a goal which should be strived for incessantly. Status of Commission The Deputies and members of the Commission are elected candidates who must obtain more than 50% of the valid votes. At present there are 601 deputies elected in their territories. The National Assembly elects 31 Council of State members and the Presidency of the Assembly. After the election, they propose the committees, who all consist of elected deputies (in the South African context, Members of Parliament), and the committees elect specialists to conduct the work. Candidacy Commission As appointed at national, provincial and municipal level, the Candidacy Commission have the function of preparing and 14 November 2001 Page 241 of 320 presenting the draft of candidates for delegates to the provincial assemblies and for deputies to the National Assembly, as well as those who will hold posts they are elected for by provincial and municipal assemblies. In all cases, the commissions are made up of representatives from social organisations - workers, peasants, students, women's organisations - and they are appointed by these organiaations at the request of the relevant election commissions. The representative of the National Trade Union of Cuba always chairs them. Relationship of Commission with Ministry of Education The Ministry of Education and Ministry of Higher Education are part of the government of the Republic of Cuba. Between the sessions, the Council of State approves the 14 November 2001 Page 242 of 320 preliminary laws. The Council of State and the People's Power National Assembly agree to the education laws. Technical work is done by the Commission or Ministry and passed by the National Assembly. All education levels are financed by the State. Higher education conducts research activities in State companies, and companies finance those activities. Human Resources have the power to create a great labour force in the frontier. National budget Because of the economic situation in Cuba, 22% to 25% is allocated to education. 40% of the budget is allocated to senior high school and the rest to technical and higher education. Teacher-Pupil ratio 14 November 2001 Page 243 of 320 At present the teacher-pupil ratio is 29:1; the Ministry of Education hopes to have 20:1 and in high school less than 30:1 per classroom. In the rural areas there are 3 000 schools with only 50 students each and 38 schools with one student and one teacher each. They provide the classroom, blackboard and teacher in all rural areas. Official view by Ms M Josefa Mederos and Mr P Berguez All provinces have deputies to the committees to control the duties under their power. They visit different research institutions and cultural centres and exchange workers in these centres; an entire population is taken care of by these centres. They exchange deputies in those territories so that they can be aware of the interests of the population. Once a year, they visit the most remote areas, and problems in those areas are 14 November 2001 Page 244 of 320 discussed with the Ministries. They also visit home-based schooling, where you find one teacher and one student. These visits are regarded as important. Education reaches every place in the country, and this work has been done in Cuba for 40 years. Official view by Ms M Torres The work of the Commission is supervised at all times, taking care of all activities at grassroots and municipal level. Main activities include popular control, and to know the opinion of the citizens relating to education, sport and culture. They also visit the different councils, and control strategic objectives of the city, taking care of all the activities in education, culture and sport - researchers are attached to those activities. Timeous feedback is received from the population on those activities. 14 November 2001 Page 245 of 320 F. Visit to "Republic of Angola" Senior High School - official view by Director, Mr J R Cucelo This is a boarding school which was officially opened in 1997 and offers Grade 10 to 12. There are 574 students and 32 teachers. More than 97% of the students come from the municipality in Havana, with one student from Angola. The students work in brigades, and education is based on equity and "revolutionary". The school management has rules and students keep a schedule in respect of their work at all times. Sport and cultural programmes are included in their curriculum. They also have labour training programmes, and they link them with agricultural activities, depending on the potential, which is linked to the fieldwork. 14 November 2001 Page 246 of 320 Teaching the students Cuban history and other political events are regarded as very important in order to support their knowledge nationally and internationally. Streams of subjects offered They have a unique education system - General Science with three Departments: Department of Humanities - Ideology, Marxism and Socialism; Department of Exact Science - History, Biology and Geography; Department of Natural Sciences - Mathematics, Physics and Biology. The curriculum is divided into these three main streams. Board of Directors Seven teachers and the Parents Board, which participates in all school activities, represent the Board of Directors. They meet monthly to debate/discuss the interests and 14 November 2001 Page 247 of 320 problems of the school and propose methods of solving the problems. There are no cases of severe illnesses (like HIV/AIDS) among the student population. There are no dropouts; they work with them to be at the school, not to drop out. Youth Brigade Learners work during school holidays and are given an incentive to do that. The school has a farm attached to it for food production, and access is given to neighbouring schools and co-operatives. As their education system is based on "work and study", students work during the school holidays in the nearest agricultural areas in different entities that serve the consumption of the school. They are paid for work they do during their school holidays. The entire production comes to 14 November 2001 Page 248 of 320 the school, none is sent to the market. If there is over-supply, they give it to the nearby schools. The Young Communist League agreed to this idea. System of examination They plan their system of examination, and it depends on the programme given to each subject. All subjects are divided into two semesters. In the semesters, they take partial control of examination and evaluate students continuously. For entry at university, each student must pass an aptitude test, depending on the specialty he or she selects. Universities offer a number of studies due according to their capacity. Mathematics, Spanish and History are compulsory. 14 November 2001 Page 249 of 320 Role of student representative on management of school The student representatives represent the students' needs, problems, political and cultural activities to the management board of the school. They also represent students at grassroots, municipal and provincial level. They have the voice and vote in the National Assembly of Students. In the Municipal Assembly, there is a committee that directly deals with all the schools' problems. This committee is in charge of visiting schools, making suggestions to teachers and presenting reports to the municipality. Failure rate 14 November 2001 Page 250 of 320 The failure rate is minimal in Grade 12, and if they fail, they can repeat their grades in the same school. G. Visit to Nursery School "Semillitas del 2000" - official view by Director, Mrs M C C Tabares and Subdirector, Mr T D Denis On arrival, the three-year-old drum majorettes warmly welcomed the delegation. This municipality nursery school is a formal centre and has 14 teachers and 115 children, ranging from less than one to four years old. The highly secured double-storey infrastructure used to be a house, and it was converted to a nursery school. They are taken care of by well-trained workers and college graduates. They have two family doctors and two nurses who are at all times present at the nursery school 14 November 2001 Page 251 of 320 and diagnose any illness. If a child is sick, he or she is taken to hospital for proper treatment. Formal schooling starts when a child is five years old. Those children who are not taken care of in the nursery are looked after in their homes. It operates from Monday to Friday, from 06:00 to 18:00. They have programmes and activities on a daily basis, and parents access these programmes at any given time. As the child grows older, the activities become more complex. The minimum class group is 24 (for one-year-olds), and the largest group is 36. The relationship between parents, families and the nursery management is good. H. Visit to Nursery School of Jesus Menendez Co-operatives - official view by pre-school teacher, Ms O Miranda 14 November 2001 Page 252 of 320 This is an informal centre, and was donated by a farmer. Ms Olga Miranda is a volunteer teacher who takes care of the pre-school children in this rural community, the children ranging from two to four years. Because of her love for the children, she offers her services without any salary. The pre-school children in this community do not attend day-care centers in the cities; they train non- working mothers and relatives how to work with children. As all mothers are unemployed, they meet twice a week and spend time to train them in respect of all the preliminary skills. As they come twice a week, they are given tasks to do at home, on which they must then give feedback. The parents bring their children to orientate them on the work when they are at home. There is great support from these 14 November 2001 Page 253 of 320 non-working mothers, as they do great work in helping and assisting the teachers to do all the activities relating to teaching and learning. There are 18 children and one teacher, who always work with the mothers. She teaches them skills to work with their families. Although children in this pre-school receive non-formal education, they have the same educational status and training programmes as those in the day-care centres. The government monitors all these activities. I. Visit to Ministry of Higher Education - official view by Minister of Higher Education, Hon Dr Fernando Vecino Alegret Higher Education in Cuba: Experiences, Challenges and Perspectives 14 November 2001 Page 254 of 320 The education system in Cuba has two different Ministries, headed by the Minister of Education, Hon I Gomez, and the Minister of Higher Education, Dr Fernando Vecino Alegret, respectively. There are 52 higher education centres and 700 000 university graduates. The main aim is to reach the heart of the people and not only instruct them but also educate and train them. The commitment of the government is to give students a career related to their studies, and this is a serious commitment nobody can find in any other country. The Commander-in-Chief, Pres Fidel Castro, is leading programmes of development in social fairness, and they have the commitment to train more teachers to work on the programmes. 14 November 2001 Page 255 of 320 The Minister also mentioned that he has recently visited three South African Universities - WITS, the University of the North West and UNISA - and he was very much impressed by UNISA on the work it developed. In South Africa they send their students to WITS and Vista University (Soweto branch) for scientific research and for other education-related matters. The Minister expressed a wish for a closer relationship with South African institutions of higher learning and the doors are open to any South African delegation to visit Cuba. For the Cuban society, the university is the social institution par excellence, which is bestowed with the responsibility of preserving, developing and spreading culture, the practical and concrete function of which is to ensure the training and development of citizens who, with rigorous scientific and technical 14 November 2001 Page 256 of 320 qualifications and with solid moral and ethical values as agents of economic and socio-political processes and of intellectual and material goods production, will allow humanity to continue its development. The university has a moral and social obligation to direct all its intelligence and action to facilitate the reality of a world made for all, instead of a world made for just a few; a world in which many languages are spoken, instead of a world in which one language replaces all the others; and a world proud of its enriched culture made up of many cultures, instead of a world of one single culture impoverished by one and only one overwhelming crushing vision and influence. Cuba has co-operated and actively participated in the fully-fledged development of Cuban society and its growing integration into the congress of nations, and it has contributed to the development of other peoples, mainly in 14 November 2001 Page 257 of 320 Latin-America and the Caribbean, in an environment of open and sincere co- operation. With this in mind, Cuban higher education has been working in the past 40 years in the academic field and in university research, services and outreach to the community, and Cuban universities project their vision into the new century. In the history of Cuban higher education, the need to have close ties between university and society has been reflected since the end of the 18th century, when Father Agustin Cabarello advocated the modernisation of higher education. Cuban institutions of higher learning are clearly aware that the interaction of university and society - the impact of what they do in the communities and of what they receive from the community - are essential elements for consolidation of the ongoing socio-economic transformation in the country and for the future demands created 14 November 2001 Page 258 of 320 by development. The improvement of curricula in undergraduate programmes is an inherent component of the rendering of account of universities to society. 43 years ago, they had 14 000 to 15 000 graduates, one million illiterate people, three official universities and a number of private universities which were only meant for the rich. At present there are no private entities in education, except schools belonging to diplomatic bodies, and no Cuban sends his or her children to private and religious schools. There are two top priorities of the Ministry - massive and basic education and higher education, and both have different budgets. They do not need any help from any country in relation to education. 14 November 2001 Page 259 of 320 Every year they send 800 university professors abroad. While they are abroad, their families are taken care of. They also have an opportunity of self-financing students, and encourage that countries should send their students to study at institutions in Cuba. Among the foreign students, they have 200 South Africans presently studying in Cuba, more than 100 pursuing a career in medical sciences. In his view, economic contribution becomes very important because students are trained for free. Statistics 61% of the students are women; 40% of the engineers are women; 70% of the women are doing medical sciences; 30% of the women are doing pedagogical studies; 45% of the students in universities are women; and there are few women chancellors and Rectors at universities. 14 November 2001 Page 260 of 320 This statistics show that women are highly motivated and see education as the key to their success. The number of women studying in universities is increasing, and these figures have also increased in respect of research studies. Distance education and learning More than 15 000 students are distance learners. They are provided with books, but do not have enough computers, no resources, videos and other forms of communication, like e-mail. The Ministry has created research centres for training PHDs. Cuba is ready for the jump to distance learning within four to six years, based on the experience in South Africa. Higher education centres There are 52 institutions of higher learning in Cuba. The main university, established in Havana in 1978, is still 14 November 2001 Page 261 of 320 regarded by Cubans as a very important institution of higher learning. How to manage number of students and jobs The three Ministries - Labour, Economy and Social Security - have to provide jobs to graduates, as these Ministries know the sources of the country's qualified labour force. The Ministry of Economy works jointly with the Ministry of Labour in the joint venture of training students. The enrolment plans are supported by demands of these Ministries. Funding universities Education in Cuba is 100% financed. The budget is allocated in Cuban pesos. As the budget is always a problem, they have a dual currency - US dollars and pesos. Both Ministries are still experiencing problems with purchasing scientific material with their currency. Having the dual economy, 14 November 2001 Page 262 of 320 everything negotiated in education with Cuban entities is paid in pesos and have limitations. Additional funding is still needed to buy more learning material. Scientific research Scientific research refers to science, technical and cultural sciences. Research is done to meet the needs of the grassroots people in the country, and pedagogical research is perceived as one of the main research topics in social sciences. 40% of students are conducting research with university professors. Their main interest is the development of technology and scientific research. Globalisation 14 November 2001 Page 263 of 320 During capitalism, prostitution was high. There were countries that used to send groups of men to abuse women there. At present, there are no drugs, no casinos, no gambling and no brothels, and tourism is strong. In every municipality, children attend school. There are 20 000 schools, of which 29 have only one student. "Where you find the student, you find the school". 19 000 schools are now electrified with solar power, and have televisions and video machines. They train teachers to create values for students. As education was part of the revolution, the country spends lots of money on education. Disabled people at universities 14 November 2001 Page 264 of 320 Disabled people are cared for by the rest of the students, who help them and take care of their interests. Blind people carry their sticks, and everybody knows that they are blind. The number of disabled people is very small. HIV/AIDS No child has been born with HIV/AIDS in the last three years. A child born disabled is given proper health care. Women are trained in how to control the birth rate. The HIV/AIDS centres are there for the infected, and care for them. J. Visit to historical city centre of Old Havana and Africa House Historical city centre of Old Havana This museum, in front of the historical city centre, was built in 1776 and in 1781. It was officially opened as a House of 14 November 2001 Page 265 of 320 Government. It is a palace in the capital of Cuba. In 1967 it opened its doors as a museum of the city. Today, it is still regarded as one of the most important buildings in the history of Cuba. The museum is situated in a very important street which links the models of that time and in front of the armed square used by the military during the colonial era. Africa House This House was established on 1 June 1986 with the objective to promote African culture and integrate African and Cuban cultures. There are 3 000 pieces of African art represented by 38 countries. The Nigerian artist, Mr Bisi Fayeke, made the beautiful woman sculpture displayed in the main entrance. Among the African artwork displayed were: 14 November 2001 Page 266 of 320 *Escultura (Ti Jwara) Utilizana en Ceremonias - Mali. *Caxadores Tallados end Madera - Congo. *Three pieces of sculptures made in the 13th century - Angola. *Four pieces of art, portraying slavery. *Five pieces of art - Mozambique. Various diplomatic missions donated some of the artwork. There is no artwork from South Africa. K. Meeting with Minister of Education - official view by Minister, Hon I Gomez The Minister of Education, the Hon I Gomez, the Director of International Relations, warmly welcomed the delegation and the President of the Commission on Education, 14 November 2001 Page 267 of 320 Science and Culture at the working dinner hosted by the Ministry of Education. The Cuban education system is different from the South African system. The Minister of Education has limited power to schools, but is in charge of legislation. The Committee of the National Assembly suggests to the National Assembly what is needed. Schools do not belong to the Minister; they are run by the People's Power at municipal level. The municipalities appoint the teachers, manage and control the budget, distribute the resources according to the size of the schools. All students are encouraged to obtain a university degree. The Ministry appoints the Chancellor and Deans, and manages approximately 16 universities in respect of general profile. The Ministry of Health Care manages five 14 November 2001 Page 268 of 320 medical universities and schools of medicine; the Ministry of Sport manages art schools; and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs manages specific universities with specific activities. Most of the Ministers are not Deputies (MPs). Parties do not nominate Ministers. Municipalities elect the Deputies. In Parliament, the Hon I Gomez does not represent the Ministry of Education, but the interest of his nation. The Ministry of Higher Education draft policies for higher education. The 16 pedagogical universities are under the umbrella of the Ministry of Education. The Minister is aware of the education system in South Africa, and he has visited Pretoria when Prof S Bhengu was our Minister of Education. 14 November 2001 Page 269 of 320 Prof K Asmal also met him during his visit to Cuba in June, and they agreed on two objectives: Advice for the literacy campaign, and Mathematics and Science under the new general condition from the economical and financial point of view: 60 teachers are to travel to South Africa; an action plan will be adjusted according to the agreement; and the delegation from the Ministry will interview the teachers priorto departure in September 2001. Pres Fidel Castro gives all his support for education in South Africa, and the government will continue to give quality education and experience in respect of South Africans, as South Africa offer co- operation and experience. The literacy campaign played a vital role in eradicating illiteracy amongst Cubans. Pres Fidel Castro recommended inexpensive ways and methods, like the radio, to 14 November 2001 Page 270 of 320 eliminate illiteracy in one year. His methods were very efficient and successful. Not everybody has a television set; radio is regarded as the most important form of public broadcast in Cuba, to use language that is understandable to the masses is of vital importance. For the national campaign to be successful, one need to do it in a language that people speaks and understands. Programmes on Information Technology They have programmes broadcast in the morning and afternoon, aimed at educating millions of people. They have manuals in French and they have now prepared to do programmes in Portuguese. Programmes to train Mathematics and Science teachers in South Africa have been agreed upon by the Cuban government. They have 14 November 2001 Page 271 of 320 already trained 130 teachers in English and are now ready to go to South Africa. They will prepare them and convey teaching skills in respect of Mathematics and Science. Better training for South African teachers does not mean taking their jobs. The government is aware that South Africa has teachers without jobs, but in Cuba there are no extra teachers. They still need more teachers closer to the children, hence the need for another 15 000. Education in Cuba is acknowledged worldwide, including the USA. There are sets of conditions recognized by UNICEF that acknowledges the system the country has in managing the education system. Research was carried out by UNISESCO on work developed in early learning, qualification of teachers, devotion of teachers to their work in school environment, control of quality of 14 November 2001 Page 272 of 320 teaching profession, and availability of teaching aids and books. Most professor/teachers in pedagogical universities earn more than the Minister. Early learning centres There are 800 000 children (less than one to five years old), and the government is taking care of them. There are 1 115 day- care centres. They all enter day-care at the age of one year - this was agreed on in congress. These children are given a certain level of education before they start formal schooling. Because most of the parents are not working, the government subsidises and trains them in taking care of their children. Their health is in the hands of family doctors. Staff members are college graduates. 14 November 2001 Page 273 of 320 L. Visit to International Sport University - official view by Director of International Relations, Mr F A D Alfonso This is the youngest university in the country, sponsoring free education to non- Cubans. It was inaugurated by Pres Fidel Castro on 23 February 2001 and formally opened in June 2001. Although there are four South African students presently studying at the university, the delegation only had an opportunity to meet with two, both from the North West - Tebogo Miriam Kgwathe and Eleanor Estelle Daniels. The other two, Tebogo Thebehae and Vincent Mfundisi, both from the Free State, were on holiday in South Africa during our visit to the institution. At present, there are 662 students from 57 countries. As the medium of instruction is Spanish, non-Spanish students are taught 14 November 2001 Page 274 of 320 and trained to speak Spanish. Their mission is to train students to be trainers, so that they can transform physical education and sport, and to take the knowledge and apply it in their respective countries. Students here are devoted to professionalism, efficiency and competitiveness, and are also permanent innovators and creators. They have a sense of belonging - they must feel what they are doing and where they belong. As students come from diverse cultures, they strongly value their cultural values, and activities are based on solidarity. Students do not stay together according to countries, but according to academic years. They are only grouped together in respect of cultural activities, and as a result they learn to maintain their cultural roots. 14 November 2001 Page 275 of 320 As students come from different regions of the world, their countries are solely responsible for their airfares to Cuba, and on arrival they are given the necessary requirements, uniform, toiletry and a monthly allowance of 50 pesos, which they use as pocket money. This allowance does not cover any needs of the school, and no payment for schoolbooks. Everything is taken care of by the Cuban government until completion of their studies. Requirement for admission *The age limit is 25 years. *Students must be physically and mentally ready for school. *Students must present certificates to prove that they are free from any illnesses or HIV/AIDS. 14 November 2001 Page 276 of 320 *Students must submit their birth certificates. *They must submit certified mid-summer school marks. *Girls must not be pregnant (pregnancy is incompatible with the training). Enrolment At present, there are 662 students and 75 teachers. The student population comprises 50% boys and 50% girls, with countries represented as follows: African - 29, Latin-America - 16, Asian - 1, and Caribbean - 11. In Latin-America, there is only one country (Cororica), which is not represented. They have a maximum number of students in respact of any given country, and they work on allocations based on the capacity of each country, depending on the capacity of enrolment every year. Foreign Affairs is directly responsible for 14 November 2001 Page 277 of 320 distribution through the Cuban Embassy in a particular country. Fair distribution is taken into account for all countries. The duration of the course is five years; each year is divided into two semesters. Towards the end of their studies, they must present a thesis, and on completion, they obtain degrees in Physical Education and Sport. The teachers teach sport according to the Olympic programme and all teachers are university graduates and have ample knowledge of physical education and sport. Characteristics of Programme The entire university programme is of a pedagogical nature; they do not train athletics but athletic trainers and professionals. They match the subjects to the characteristics of the programme. At university level, they do not train specialists but professionals. During their studies, they participate in recreative 14 November 2001 Page 278 of 320 activities to be able to participate in physical rehabilitation. As they teach different groups of subjects, students can work in rehabilitation centres in hospitals. Other subjects include: *Spanish - Spanish-speaking students take English as a second language. *History and Sociology. *Computer Science - they can apply their training in a working environment. *Cuban students take Cuban History while other take universal studies. *They do not teach political subjects. *Optional subjects - sport that they would like to be coaches in. All the subjects are directed to their professions. 14 November 2001 Page 279 of 320 Sports Facilities As this used to be a military school, the school management is reconstructing it, in three phases. There are no sporting facilities, but by the end of the reconstruction process, they will have 30 of them, including swimming pools and two multi-purpose rooms. By the time we visited the university, they were finishing the second phase of reconstruction. Other Services They have a large kitchen, a lounge accommodating 400 students, a bakery, telephone and television services operating 24 hours per day, a coffee shop, a post office, a primary care hospital with 20 beds (eight for girls and 12 for boys), a laboratory, X-Ray facilities, a pharmacy, physiotherapy facilities, a library which opens daily from Monday to Friday and is accessed by students themselves, access to 14 November 2001 Page 280 of 320 e-mail and the Internet, and three computer laboratories with 12 computers each. Communication channels Students use telephone cards, sold at 1US$, to call home. They are also given full support by means of access to e-mail in order to communicate with their families, as well as on Internet. Allocation of Students They have separate boarding rooms for boys and girls, and they only mix in class, in the lounge and during school activities. Classes are mixed groups from different countries, and it is normal to find mixed love relationships from cross-cultural countries among students. Prevention of pregnancy and other diseases 14 November 2001 Page 281 of 320 The school conducts a strong programme of sex education not only to prevent pregnancy but also sexually transmitted diseases. The management of hospital takes this into account. Students have access to free condoms available in the hospital. When students return from the school holidays, they do periodical medical check ups and test on chloroquin (treatment used to treat malaria). When they detect HIV status from any student, he/she is taken to the centre to conduct necessary medical tests and take measures to send the student home. After the discussions, the delegation had an opportunity to tour around the university. M. Visit to Latin-American School of Medical Sciences - official view 14 November 2001 Page 282 of 320 The Latin-American School of Medical Sciences had previously 3 432 students from 24 countries: 20 Latin America and Caribbean countries and 4 African countries. The idea of the school came from Latin America and Caribbean countries with an aim to bring the student around the world to train them as doctors and not specialists, and not to preserve medicine as merchandise, to see human being as a client. The school is located in the facilities of what used to be a Naval Academy for the formation of Army and marine higher officers. It has 82 buildings with 28 laboratories in an area of 1 200 000 square metres, which were donated by the Cuban Ministry of the Army to the Ministry of Public Health on 31 December 1998. This project was created after the devastation caused by George and Mitch hurricanes, which resulted in more than 7 14 November 2001 Page 283 of 320 000 deaths and desolation to thousands of people at the end of 1998. Out of its spirit of solidarity the Cuban government immediately sent hundreds of doctors in medical brigades to help the affected people who are mostly still in the poorest populations in the rural areas of each country. Together with this collaboration, President Fidel Castro, had an idea of offering a more long-lasting help to these fraternal peoples. That is why only 3 months after the natural disaster the Cuban government gave the opportunity to Central American youngsters with a bachelor degree - mainly from poor families in the rural areas, to receive scholarships to study medicine in Cuba. The number of students in the first group was increased due to requests of the Latin American countries and thus instead of the 14 November 2001 Page 284 of 320 approximately 700 students that were expected from Central America, 1 929 students from 18 Latin-American countries arrived. During the first quarter of this year a second group joined this initial group, which is now in the second year of studies. Today, there are 5 000 students registered with the school from 60 countries with 600 indigenous people, with approximately 300 to 400 professors. They admit 1 500 to 2 000 foreign students every year. Amongst the nations represented in this institution are Mexico, Belize, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Panama, and the Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Colombia, Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, Chile, Brazil, Uruguay, Argentina; and the African nations of Equatorial Guinea, Cape Verde and Guinea-Bissau. 14 November 2001 Page 285 of 320 56% of the registrations are girls, with more than 50 ethnical groups. All lessons are delivered in Spanish. For the students of this school, just as for Cuban students, the lessons, lodging, books, toiletry, teaching materials and other facilities are gratuitous. They are in boarding regime and finish their teaching activities on Friday afternoon. Each student receives an allowance of 100 pesos every month. In this campus they stay for two years six months during their Basic Sciences cycle, (six months - levelling course; two years for Basic Medical Science) and for the remainder of their studies they go to the 21 Medical Faculties all over Cuba where they link practice and theory. The medical doctor has to be trained for six years. If the student has been studying medical science in his or her country, the course takes lesser time, as medical science studies differ from country to country. 14 November 2001 Page 286 of 320 To complement the comprehensive attention that they receive during the six years of Medicine studies, different recreational, cultural, and sports activities are carried out which favour their formation as doctors with a high scientific, technical, cultural, ethical and humanitarian level. The future doctors who graduate from the Latin America School of Medicine will be missionaries who will offer daily care to their patients to help alleviate the most devastating hurricanes that affect the Third World: those of economic and social character. It has been noticed with appreciation that most students are interested in studying both western and traditional medicine. They have developed green medicine (traditional medicine) and created teams of work formed by the psychologists to take care of patients to follow a kind of therapy to be given to patients with depression and 14 November 2001 Page 287 of 320 stress etc. The flower therapy is very effective in Cuba, and the doctors in the army used green medicine, now it is believed that if there were no medicine, people would have gone to the mountain. This is seen to substitute western medicine. Cuban traditional medicine is scientifically and laboratory based taking into account the western-based culture in Cuba. This method of teaching traditional medicine was fully developed in 1991, by Cuba government and doctors at the medical institutes develop these medicines. Traditional healers are fully trained. Family doctors work on these programmes at the national level, and they have institutions, hospitals and clinics. The delegation noted that there is an outward international sponsorship to all 14 November 2001 Page 288 of 320 countries in the Latin America and around the world. Legislation guarding activities of institution There is joint work of two Ministries, namely; Ministry of Health, which is in charge of content and Ministry of Higher Education, which is in charge of methodology and procedures to teach in class. The budget is under the control of Health Care Ministry. Criteria and requirements for admission *The student must be between 18 and 25 years old and should pass senior high school (Grade 12). *He or she must have a bachelor degree or similar level or education and in the leveling course, chemistry is compulsory. 14 November 2001 Page 289 of 320 *He or she must come from the poor areas or rural areas. *He or she must have no addiction to drugs and alcohol. *Medium of instruction for all courses is Spanish. Programmes of study are the same for foreign and Cuban students and foreign students have to study harder because illnesses may not be the same in their communities, as a result they have to make great efforts to study those illnesses. N. Visit to Social Workers School- official view by Director of School and President of Commission on Education and Culture, Mr A Benarides This school or youth-driven project is under the umbrella of Ministry of Education, taking care of students studying 14 November 2001 Page 290 of 320 pedagogical science, special science and primary education. The school started in August 2000 and key objective is to solve social problems within the communities. This was an idea of the Commander in Chief, President Fidel Castro who developed one of the programmes of the revolution, taking care of social problems and social changes of all the masses in Cuba. It was mentioned that even after the revolution they still had historic problems, which they could not transform in a short period of time. As it is the only school operating in Cuba, there is an intention to open three more, one in the western and two in eastern parts of the country. There have been many requests to train social workers at universities, but in Cuba, they are trained in various institutions This school trains group of young people between 18 and 22 years who are Grade 12 graduates to become social workers and to 14 November 2001 Page 291 of 320 train the youth to be socially productive. The students are trained to take care of impact in the young population, to look at families with social and economic problems. They have 180 teachers training 7 000 students per semester, over a period of five-and-a-half months, 14 000 students are trained for this programme per annum. The number of teachers varies and is determined by the number of student enrolment. They also get assistance from university professors to lecture certain courses free of charge and with no costs involved and teaching certain subjects in the primary schools when needed. After this period they are deployed to the communities to look for those students who could not be in the system. They work jointly with other institutions of the government and young population on the impact of their family problems to address their needs. All families in Cuba can access social security. 14 November 2001 Page 292 of 320 Only Cubans are trained in this programme and this is seen as an incentive for those who did not have an opportunity to go to universities to further their studies. They attend school from Monday to Friday and on Saturday; they do their practical work. Once they are admitted to the university as part time students, they attend once a week and the duration of the course is 5 years. The huge amount of work is done at home. They report to the Young Communist League and integrate study and work. Research is used as a tool to elaborate proposals to work on the solutions. As the Young Communist League leads all youth projects, they come back to school to report and feedback to this league and to their teachers once a week on the work done and needs of the people. Common problems they get as a form of feedback related to their studies are employment (orientate population into different jobs as they sometimes do not know options of 14 November 2001 Page 293 of 320 employment); cases of young people who did not get an opportunity to study at the university; problems of families with low income; and taking care of persons with illnesses who need health care. When they are at the university, they attend regular courses on a part-time basis. They are trained to work with families and young people visiting them in their homes to study the environment and problems encountered by that environment and access young population to employment. Students do subjects related in working in psychological environment, and they propose solutions to the problems and information on the result of the revolution are also given to them. It was mentioned that there are various solutions to their problems, one of them is to give them food, give books to children in need and jobs to parents in need. 14 November 2001 Page 294 of 320 Any person who is not employed, they immediately look for opportunities for one to study. They also talk to the people in the communities and look for different options to work and if unqualified, they are sent to training sessions in order to get jobs. The teachers at all times do promote possibilities and opportunities for their students. The problems they sometimes capture in the communities are of cultural nature, i.e. families of low intellectual and low school level. They then look for the opportunities for their children to access day care centres and to get jobs that are in line with their qualifications especially for those who are not qualified. They also do educational work, taking children to art schools, or any technical school to do other technical studies. On completion of the studies they are employed and come under the umbrella of the 14 November 2001 Page 295 of 320 Young Communist League, which monitors the budget but they receive their salaries from different Ministries. This league offer studies to those students who were unable to further their studies. This is the call from Pres Fidel Castro and the Young Communist League that no person should be in prison. Such projects prevent youth to be imprisoned. They can access any university in Cuba without a test, as it is an entry requirement for admission in any university in Cuba. They can take humanities studies so as to specialise in doing social work. As according to the Director, university studies are seen to be more important because they become psychologists and sociologists, which enable them to work with any type of society. They can also work in the Ministries of Social Security and Health as well as the NGOs. 14 November 2001 Page 296 of 320 The Cuban government strongly believes that all projects should be directly youth- driven to encourage them to see the importance of education. Although they have insufficient resources to solve the severe housing problem and poor living conditions in their houses, they are able to learn. The amount of grant as a form of assistance each family unit receives, depends on the type of problem they have which ranges from 50 to 200 pesos per month. The main objective of the government is not to give them grants but in the case where one cannot work because of serious illnesses like nervous breakdown or taking care of the elderly, the grant is permanent. O. Visit to CINED Educational Film Centre - official view by Mr I Barreto and teachers 14 November 2001 Page 297 of 320 This company which is under an umbrella of the Ministry of Education the only company of this kind in Cuba, co-ordinate and produces audio-visual, teaching and learning aids, videos, slides and leisure materials for children. It is in support of the Ministry and takes priority and needs of the Ministry, and transformation of curriculum of Ministry of Education, to provide needy materials on different levels of teaching to support work of the teachers/professors and not to substitute them. They also support the work with the research and opinion of teachers and professors. They do not do video work on their own but with the institutions, and they involve teachers and students. The video programmes support television programmes. Having 30 years experience in its work, they are able to provide these materials to all Cuban schools and other different institutions. Each school is supplied with a television 14 November 2001 Page 298 of 320 set and video machine to enable them to access these materials. They have already distributed 40 000 cassettes to schools and to all different sectors in the country containing films with recreational materials approaching every subject in education. These educational programmes approach certain sex education, political and military instruction, preservation and environment, which are aimed and directed from day care centres to senior high school, for different age groups. They are also aimed at the teachers/professors to improve their cultural level. This company also provide computers to rural schools, which enable them to watch using the power and solar systems. These computers were bought through the agreement with the Republic of China to supply the computers to rural schools and given a 14 November 2001 Page 299 of 320 priority also to those schools with five students or one student. As this project is run by the Young Communist League project, they mobilise the youth to be involved in such programmes. Programmes/project run by the Young Communist League include: *Audio Visual Programmes. *University for All (it is broadcast three times a week). *Video Halls. *Computing class. *Social Workers Programmes. *School of Art Instructors. *Distance Training (they videos and all equipment for video conferring). 14 November 2001 Page 300 of 320 They do research to make sure that these programmes are utilised properly by creating programmes to train educational professors to meet their needs and interests and for students to use these programmes. As they use a lot of technology, they control the work of the visual materials as it serves as an important tool or feedback source on how they are used in the classroom. There has been close working relationship with Venezuala regarding these programmes. They have signed agreements with Latin American Association of Educational Programmes, with Spain and Mexico to supply them with the materials to assist their schools. They are ready to help any country with these materials. Although they are self-financed, part of the project is funded by the State through Ministry of Education and Young Communist League. 14 November 2001 Page 301 of 320 P. Visit to Museum of Revolution This museum was the Presidential Palace before the revolution. In 1957 it portrayed a very significant era where Batista killed a group of 50 people inside the building (bullets shots are still on the walls). In 1974 it was officially opened as a national museum. This is one of the historical palaces in Cuba. Personalities such as Fidel Castro, Enersto Guevara, Camilo Cienfuegos and Ravil Castro took part in the ordinary sessions on Tuesdays and Fridays. They adopted measures of wide popular benefits that characterize the programme of the revolution. The delegation was given an opportunity to tour around the museum. Pres Fidel Castro lighted the Flame of Freedom outside the museum in 1989 to 14 November 2001 Page 302 of 320 attribute for all fallen heros of the nation. Q. Visit to Varadero Beach A lunch was hosted at the Protocol House by the National Assembly of People's Power during the visit to the Varadero Beach. R. Visit to Deputy Ministry of Foreign Relations - official view by Deputy Minister, Hon Jose Guerra Menchero The Minister congratulated Dr Rajoo for the report he presented to Cuba in 1999. There are 500 people working in the Ministry of Foreign Relation ranging from the Minister to personnel. In 1959 they had 26 embassies inside and 27 outside. Today, they have 99 embassies, 118 missions including the consulates. Cuba is isolated due to economic blockage. About 14 November 2001 Page 303 of 320 167 countries voted in favour of Cuba while 3 against and have best relations with South Africa. The members of ACP (Africa Caribbean Pacific) have to accept certain conditions to be the members of the European Union (EU). For Cuba, there is no need for conditionality to be the member and no need for paper condition. There are no conditions to any country, which have diplomatic relations with Cuba. They have good relations with Latin America. 81% of Cubans are owners of their houses. The government employees are the lowest paid. The Deputy Minister earns US$27 per month (R216); an official, US$20 (R160), while the policeman receives US$1 (R8). There are no special benefits among citizens. Relations with foreign students 14 November 2001 Page 304 of 320 The Ministry is directly in charge of giving and securing the scholarships; and there is a permanent unit dealing with this area. There are 9 000 foreign students studying in Cuba. Their respective governments only pay for their tickets and once the student arrives, everything is taken care of by the government except in postgraduate's studies. Out of 11,2 million inhabitants, they have 80 000 doctors. They are they compare with the best in medicine and have developed their medical profession and their pharmaceutical industry. Research on life-threatening diseases They do research on HIV and are working on the vaccine. They are free to work at any country that wants to collaborate, as they 14 November 2001 Page 305 of 320 are ready to co-operate. HIV needs a lot of knowledge. Approximately 2 038 people in Cuba are HIV. The low average growth rate is 0,2%. The struggle for HIV is becoming useful for teenage pregnancy; figures are too high. There is still a big problem in the countryside regarding teenage pregnancy. Abortion is free and is done under the control of medical supervisor. Back street abortionists are severely punished. View change in communist work The parties in Soviet Union were separated to the masses. According to the Minister "to stay in power, people should support you". Public health and education are the benefits that cannot be stopped. S. Visit to Agricultural Havana University - official view by University Management 14 November 2001 Page 306 of 320 This university is the leading sector in agriculture under the umbrella of the national institute for agricultural health. There are 300 professors, 2 000 undergraduates, 4 000 post graduates and 135 foreign students. 34 foreign countries are represented at this university and they continually sustain international work with these foreign countries. The professors work mainly with undergraduate students at the university and teach postgraduates during holidays. They are considering converting the university into international university because of cultural impact of students and teachers. None of the students receive salary, they are only given an allowance as part of their practice to enhance knowledge in labour and research. Postgraduate studies are more demanding in various specialities. 14 November 2001 Page 307 of 320 Integration of studies and agriculture They train the students for them to have better performance in workplace. They spend less time in class; they work as technicians and devote more time to their research to give solutions to the problems in Havana province. They send students to companies independent to the university and co-operatives as part of their practice. Planning of curriculum and teach They specify teaching, research and productive subject each student should take. They support a lot of work in relations with production entities, sending them to farming and agricultural entities. The thesis is based on production problems. Since 1999, training of students on social and agricultural science aimed at community work. This is a new experience, study and research and transformation. The key 14 November 2001 Page 308 of 320 principle is to train in the society for society and links that surrounds the community. Links with South Africa They had South African students prior 1994, but as to now none are presently studying at the university although they have agreements with South African universities. They are open to any visible exchange because they have strong basic material with universities abroad and have experience of work with Africa. The university would like to establish links and co-operation with South Africa. T. Comments and recommendations 1. The delegation envisages that youth of this country should be involved in the literacy campaigns linking it up along with the Constitution and guidelines 14 November 2001 Page 309 of 320 should be clearly stated in that regard. 2. There should be massive mobilization by SANLI, taking everybody on board including organizations, NGOs, churches and unions etc. in the literacy campaign. 3. Involvement of media should be encouraged for promotion of the literacy campaigns. 4. Inclusive in education system should be encouraged and continuous support system for those students who have been integrated at district level should be strongly emphasized. 5. Preparatory work at educare centres and home based educational centres must be done to train necessary personnel before implementation, and where facilities do not exist, mechanisms 14 November 2001 Page 310 of 320 should be created to train mothers to teach their children. 6. South African education system should integrate school work with the world of work within the curriculum and this can honour their physical work in their schools. 7. When schools close, students should be encouraged to provide assistance in HIV/Aids awareness programmes, assisting the senior citizen in pensions pay points and in the literacy campaigns in all provinces in the country. 8. Schools should restore discipline and work ethics. 9. There is a need for South Africa to have its own sport academy, which will train students in all sporting fields as well as the physical education, 14 November 2001 Page 311 of 320 using the unused infrastructure i.e. teacher colleges. 10. There should be more links between South African universities with those in Cuba. 11. South African government needs to identify artistic articles that would represent South Africa and be displayed at the Africa House. 12. The Committee should have conscious link up with the Portfolio Committee on Sport and Recreation, as they have visited the institution during their visit early this year. 13. There should be mass involvement of youth especially for those who cannot study through to Grade 12 in the management of social problems within communities. 14 November 2001 Page 312 of 320 14. There is a need for infrastructure to house youth to be trained for short courses, e. g 4 - 5 months programmes. They should be trained on day to day problems of the communities and on other broader context of other courses like brick laying, so as to build houses needed for social development. 15. There is a need to promote the spirit of voluntarism amongst the youth. The National Youth Commission should be driving the process to encourage the youth of South Africa. 16. Constant co-ordination between media and subject advisor and curriculum experts should be encouraged. 17. Students should all the time be encouraged to watch the educational programmes broadcasted by SABC, and the schools should market the programmes and they should be monitored. 14 November 2001 Page 313 of 320 18. Television and radio must be taken as a medium of instruction and awareness of these educational programmes must be encouraged. 19. There is a need for one common museum in all provinces which will depict history of South Africa including the apartheid era (1652 - 1959-1990 - 1994) and emphasis on the current history. 20. The Committee should discuss the issue with the Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture, Science and Technology on the establishment of the national museum specifically on the evaluation of the visit. 21. There should be closer link between the arts and culture and education portfolio committees. 22. Each department should be involved in each university's activities as in 14 November 2001 Page 314 of 320 Cuba, they are directly engaged with the universities and are geared at enhancing community needs. 23. Universities and colleges of education should have physical practical work and production at the end. 24. There is a need to establish one college in each province to drive the rural development and national agenda forward. Youth should be directly involved in these programmes. There is also a need to establish agricultural colleges using the unused educational colleges, which have proper and usable facilities. T. Conclusion The delegation as well and the entire Portfolio Committee on Education observed and was impressed with, inter alia, four 14 November 2001 Page 315 of 320 important principles underpinning the Cuban education policy, namely: 1. Generosity, which is reflected in their programmes offered to other developing countries despite their own economic position and their promotion of a spirit of giving among the youth. 2. The encouragement of voluntarism among the people generally and the young people in particular, regardless of their own needs, reflected in their vacation programmes of voluntary services. 3. The importance they attach to agriculture as being the very essence of life, reflected in their programmes for the promotion of agriculture enterprise. 4. Their programmes are also geared towards building mutual respect between 14 November 2001 Page 316 of 320 the young and the not-so-young people, reflected in the numerous projects they have for the youth meeting their diverse needs and creating the opportunities for the potential of the young people to be exposed. All their programmes promote these values. The Committee strongly recommends that in the midst of the exploitive, ruthless and self-centred ethos in our country, reflected in the violence against children and women, there is a strong need for these important values, which are also part of our own concept "Ubuntu", and also contained in the "Manifesto on values, education and democracy" document of the Department of Education, be actively promoted in our education system. U. List of participants 1. Mr R Sethlapelo, Charge d'Affaires a.i - Embassy of South Africa. 14 November 2001 Page 317 of 320 2. Ms A Haslop, First Secretary - Embassy of South Africa. 3. Ms P Rapudi, Administrative Attache - Embassy of South Africa. 4. Ms E Segoapa, Head of Management - Embassy of South Africa. 5. Mr T Molale, First Secretary - Embassy of South Africa. 6. Prof L Campos, Prof of History, and staff, Museum of the Literacy Campaign. 7. Ms L D Carballo Gonzalez, Director and staff for School for the Disabled. 8. Mrs L C Fabelo, President of the Commission on Education, Science and Culture/People's Power, National Assembly and the Commission - Cuba. 14 November 2001 Page 318 of 320 9. Mr J R Cucelo, Director and staff Republic of Angola Senior High School. 10. Mrs M C C Tabares, Director, Nursery School "Semillitas del 2000". 11. Mr T D Denis, Sub-Director and staff Nursery School "Semillitas del 2000". 12. Ms O Miranda, Teacher, and staff Nursery School of Jesus Menendez Co- operatives, Cuba. 13. Dr F Vecino Alegret, Minister of Higher Education, Cuba. 14. Staff, Old Havana and Africa House. 15. Hon I Gomez, Minister of Education, Cuba. 16. Mr F A D Alfonso, Director, International Sport University. 14 November 2001 Page 319 of 320 17. Latin-American School of Medical Science. 18. Mr A Benarides, Director, Social Workers School. 19. The Directors and staff - CINED Educational Film Centre. 20. Staff - Jose Marti Museum of Revolution. 21. Hon J G Menchero, Deputy Minister of Foreign Relations and staff, Cuba. 22. University Management and the Staff, Havana Agricultural University. 23. Ms D Delgado, English Interpreter - Cuba. 24. Mr S Castro Fernandez - Professional Staff, National Assembly of People's Power - Havana, Cuba. 14 November 2001 Page 320 of 320 25. All the drivers - National Assembly of People's Power. 26. All the communities visited. Report to be considered.