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               Million Dollar Web Copywriting
                                       by Terry         Dean & Fred Gleeck
                             Business Systems 2000, all rights reserved

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                            Online Copywriting
                       How to Earn Millions on the Internet
                        by Writing Irresistible Web Sites,
                           Emails and Online Ad Copy

                                          Tape 1

Section One: The Myth of Online Ad Copy

Fred: Welcome folks and thanks for listening. Fred Gleeck here with Terry Dean, and
today we’re going to be talking about online copywriting, but before we do that I think it
is important Terry that we give people a little bit of background about yourself, about me,
and how we got here.

So Terry, I guess the best thing, the first thing to do is to tell people your story. Now,
many people listening to these tapes have probably heard it in one manner, shape or form,
but I assume there are a number of people listening here who don’t know your story, so
let’s just assume that nobody knows who you are. Take them from the beginning.

Terry: Well, okay. Thank you, Fred. My name is Terry Dean. I run the web site over at , b-, and really the reason we’re talking
about ad copy and the reason I’m here is because I’ve built a successful online business
over the last six years starting from scratch – actually starting from less than scratch.

Six years ago, I was delivering pizzas for Little Caesar’s for a living, being paid $8 an
hour for delivering the pizzas. And I was frustrated with my life. I had bought a lot of
business opportunities, I had tried to do a lot of direct selling opportunities, I had tried
network marketing, and I had tried all kinds of different things.

Throughout all my trying and we’ll say some large mistakes in borrowing money on
credit cards, I was $50,000 in debt with no assets, living in a little rental house that my
wife and I were paying $340 a month for. That’s a pretty bad position to be in - $50,000
in debt.

Fred: How did you find out about the Internet or what got you turned on to online work?

Terry: Well, what ended up happening is I was just frustrated with my life. I was at my
last straw trying to figure out something I could do, and I kept hearing all the stories
about people who were making so much money on the Internet. That was back when was starting up at the time. There was a bunch of other web
sites that people were talking about and everyone was talking about all the money to be
made on the Internet.

So, I went out to Best Buy and used my last credit card which I hadn’t charged all the
way up and paid $2,500 for a 75 megahertz Pentium computer and basically just started
teaching myself the computer. And really I had no background - no training for real. I
bought some books from direct marketing experts so I could learn how write ad copy,
learn how people were doing direct mail, and I started trying to learn how to apply that to
the Internet.

Because I came with direct mail principles, I had a different perspective than most
people. I came at it understanding that people’s attitudes and their human nature is the
same. We are just going to figure out what has worked in the past will work on the
Internet, too.

Fred: So, what you’re saying is marketing techniques are universal. The fact that we’re
applying them to the Internet is just a different medium.

Terry: Yes, it’s just a different medium; there are only slight changes. And basically it
wasn’t that long. Within six months I was earning a full- time income online which, when
you’re delivering pizzas, a full- time income doesn’t actually mean that much. But it was
a good income for me. I didn’t have to work anymore; and in time, the income just keeps
going up. Now, I’m at the point where I have almost 90,000 subscribers to a free
newsletter that I put up.

Fred: Ninety thousand.

Terry: Ninety thousand. I have ove r 1,400 people who pay me $19.95 a month to hear
my advice for marketing, and all of this has just been a practice that basically is self
taught. I’ve learned how to do the Internet, I’ve taught customers, I have hundreds of
customers I’ve helped get their own online businesses started and that’s what we’re going
to be talking about on this tape. We’re also going to be talking about the ad copy
specifically for the Internet.

Fred: And Terry, there are a lot of people out there who are marketing online and let’s
just say who are a little bit less than honest with their figures. One of the things I always
appreciated about you is you have been very forthcoming with the actual numbers that
are coming in.

I think it would be interesting for people…not for you to brag because I know you’re not
that kind of person, but just for people to know… I mean they’re quickly doing the
computation in their heads, what is $1,400 x $20 a month. But that’s not all. That’s your
regular monthly take just from the membership site. You also make money from other

Without giving anybody your tax returns here, could you give people an idea that the guy
who used to deliver pizzas with $50 grand in the hole in debt is now making about how
much money a month, the ball park?

Terry: Well, I don’t want to give you gross figures, because I hate that. I hate when

Fred: I agree.

Terry: So, I’m just going to tell you my net figures. My net figures, we average between
$40,000 and $50,000 a month.

Fred: Net.

Terry: Net.

Fred: Okay. So, for all of you who just heard that, be very careful when you listen to
numbers because people will frequently throw out, “I’m grossing 3 ½ million a year.”
Yeah, but how much are you netting? “Well, I’m still in debt.”

So, again, Terry’s model is one that we really have to look at carefully because he is now
in a position, and he like myself believes in keeping very, very little debt and very low
overhead. So, Terry, within probably the first day of every month, you could probably
pay off your fixed overhead mo nthly. Wouldn’t that be about right?

Terry: Oh, yeah, that would be easy.

Fred: Now, for those of you listening who may not have heard of me before because
overall we just did a search on the Internet and Terry is obviously a lot better known than
I am, I’m Fred Gleeck. I have sort of a different background.

For the last 18 years I have been doing a lot of my own private seminars, and what
happened was I discovered very early on that the best way to make money doing
seminars and speaking engagements was to create products and to sell them at these

So, what happened is that I’m sort of a product creation specialist. I do that both for
myself with my own individual niche markets, which are really much smaller than
Terry’s, but very tightly defined and very, very deep.

I have niche markets, such as video producers and self-storage operators and authors and
speakers and consultants. And the site…if you want to take a lot at some of the things
that I do, you may want to look at That’s The, t-h-e,
productguru, g- That’s about a little bit of what I do to help people in the field
of product creation development.

But I also have a lot of sites that are individually set up for these niches in which I create
and market my own products. And one of the things, Terry, I think you’d agree that there
are a lot of people out there online marketing who are telling people how to make money

on the Internet that have never really made money doing anything on the Internet except
selling products on marketing.

So, the thing that I always admire is people who are actually making a living selling to
niches or selling something other than how to make money on the Internet. Would you

Terry: Oh, definitely.

Fred: So, for those of you, if you also want to take a look at one of my other sites, one of
my most popular ones, we’re going to talk about it in today’s session is Seminar Expert, Take a look at that.

Let’s get going. Okay, that’s enough by way of background. Let’s get into the meat of
the matter. Can you tell people in about a paragraph here what it is you want them to
learn in this tape series? What is sort of an overview of what we’re going to cover?

Terry: I want people on this tape to learn what has been the most valuable asset to me for
online marketing and that’s how to write a million dollar ad copy online.

Fred: You mean it’s not knowing how to do your own web sites or using your own

Terry: No, it’s definitely not that because if you know the basics of doing those things
you can hire that job out to someone else. What you’re going to find is that if you want
to hire out a good copywriter, you’re going to be spending $15,000, $20,000, or $25,000
and it’s going to be off the charts what you’re going to pay for a good copywriter.

And even then they’re not going to know everything that we’re going to talk about in this
series because we’re going to talk about a lot of hidden things about copy.

Fred: Also the interesting thing about what you just said is that although it takes
knowledge of how to write copy, how to create a web site, how to host a web site and all
those other things, what you’re saying is that the writing of the copy is the most valuable
skill that you can learn, and that’s what we’re going to be talking about here today.

Terry: I’ll say this. For everything I know, everything I have, my most valuable asset of
course is my customer list. My second most valuable asset is knowing how to write ad

Fred: Perfect. So, your customer list is the single most valuable asset; the second most
valuable asset is copy. And we can’t give you a customer list, folks, if you’re listening
on tape. But we can show you and give you the skills on how to write copy to attract
more customers.

Terry: Exactly, because if you don’t have the right ad copy…My unique selling position
in my own business is the fact that I can go to anybody’s web site and increase the profits
in one hour or less. Mainly because of the fact that most of what I do is exactly what
we’re going to talk about in this series: how to modify a few things, how to change
headlines, and how to do the whole online ad copy situation.

Because most people are thinking so much about generating millions and millions of
visitors that they have never stopped to look at how good their ad is produced on the web
site and that’s where they can make the biggest differences.

Fred: And not really their ad, but more of their ad copy or their web copy, right?

Terry: Their web copy, and there are other points that we’ll talk about.

Fred: Okay, good. Well, let’s go ahead and get going then. Let’s talk about some of the
myths of online ad copy in sort of our first section here. One of the things that I hear a lot
of time at my seminars whenever I do seminars around the country is, “You know what?
I would never read something that long. I can’t believe its 16 pages. I would never read

My response is usually, “Well, I don’t care about what you would do. I care about what
my customers would do.” So, tell us about the myth associated with people not reading
long copy.

Terry: Well, that’s a real common myth promoted in all kinds of books saying that
people won’t read long web copy, they won’t read web copy that goes on five, six, or
even ten pages. I have some sellers that go on 20 pages or more. And the actual truth of
that is that people will read what they’re interested in.

And I have several associates who even have books where most of the books just lead
into their backend products. So, you could actually say it’s a 200-page sales letter. And
just think about how many people visit online. If you have something that you’re really
interested in or really excited about or that looks like good information to you, you’re just
going to read through it.

Fred: And not only will they read through it, they’ll probably print it out, read through it
three times, highlight it, and have all this other stuff associated with it. So, people will
read. So, if you’re listening on tape, the message is what?

Terry: The message is that you’re going to tell everything that you need to tell to make
the sale.

Fred: And here’s the thing. People will ask me frequently, how long should my ad copy
be? And the answer is as long as you need to tell your story.

Terry: Yes, you need to tell them everything that you need to say. We’re not going to
say that you write a ten-page letter because you need a ten-page letter. It might be two
pages that you write. You just write your whole story…

Fred: Until you’re done. And once you’re done, you’re finished. But don’t be thinking
about any specific length when you get started.

Terry: And some specific examples that I have seen in my own business is I’ve had a lot
of people buy a product and look at my bullets and say, “I’m looking for this, this bullet
that you had in here. Where is that in the ad?” That person, I know that they read
through it. They’re saying, you know, I’m looking for this and this. Can you tell me
where it is in the product?

Fred: Now, it’s interesting that you say that. I think we might talk about it later. But
also there are ways in which if you put a bullet down, a lot of times people would put a
parentheses after the bullet saying page 623 or whatever it is. So, in other words, they
know that they will be able to find it in that particular place.

Terry: Yes. I use that method sometimes, as well. But they’re reading the whole thing
to find out everything that’s there.

Fred: Now, one of the other points we want to talk about here that’s sort of a myth is that
you shouldn’t do a hard sell online. Now, what do you think about that? People say
don’t do an actual hard sell.

Terry: Well, that’s another myth. For a long time, people have been saying you
shouldn’t have a sales letter. Or they talk about how offline sales letters don’t work
online at all, or you have to completely change them. We’re going to see if we make
some changes to offline sales letters, but we don’t make a whole lot.

A lot of the same principles are pretty similar offline marketing and online marketing.
And we go for the sale. Sometimes at the beginning a great concept is on your ad, you
might make the beginning look like a free report, but as you get into it, you’re going to go
for the sale. You’re going to tell them how to order…

Fred: Now, you just said “ad” there. Do you also mean web copy?

Terry: Yes, web copy.

Fred: So, actually it’s funny that you actually say the word “ad,” because your web site
should be an ad, an ad for any product that you’re trying to sell.

Terry: Exactly. See, a big mistake a lot of people have made is they think the web is to
give away free stuff; see how much free stuff we can give away to get millions of

Fred: That’s because all of these people out there who are not very web savvy who have
set themselves up supposedly as gurus are giving off this information that you have to
give out a lot of content. That’s Baloney.

Terry: But here’s the key principle I tell everybody for their web site. The first thing I
make any person I work with that I consult with on their web site is I ask them, what is
the first purpose they want their visitors to do at their web site. Is it to join a list? Is it to
buy a product? And I don’t accept any other answer besides those two.

Fred: So, in other words, you’re saying that any web site must have two and only two
possible goals : either to sell a product, a front end product as we’re going to talk about; or
number two, to get them to opt- in to a list.

Terry: That’s exactly it.

Fred: So, when people say you shouldn’t do a hard sell online, the answer to that is
baloney, you should. What about this one? You need to provide people with nice
looking sort of sexy, fancy graphics because that really enhances the design element of
your site. What do you think about that?

Terry: That is a big lie straight out. I’m not going to say that you need bad graphics, but
on several tests I have bought rights to some products, and I thought their web site looked
horrible. And then I had a graphic designer make the web site look a lot nicer – same ad
copy – and our response went down. We actually had response drop in half.

Fred: In half?

Terry: And at first I was like what in the world is going on? But I realized what
happened, and that was that we put such nice graphics up that attention was taken away
from the headline. That’s what happened. And really as soon as the attention got taken
away from the headline, we lost response.

Fred: And we’re going to talk more about that later, how important a headline is with
some examples that you’ve had and I’ve had, as well.

Terry: And so you want to have nice decent graphics, but I only put one or two graphics
per page maximum.

Fred: Yeah, one or two per page maximum. And when people start going nuts and
thinking they need to incorporate a whole lot of graphics, the answer to that is not if
you’re trying to sell something or get somebody to opt- in to a list.

Terry: And the only time I would drop that rule is if you’re a graphic designer and you
need to show a lot of your designs obviously.

Fred: Well, there’s another big myth in addition to that one in graphics; that people
won’t spend more than $50 online. Forget it. If you try and sell anything over $50,
you’re going to be unsuccessful.

Terry: And that’s another big lie. A lot of times they’ll have a lead- in product that’s $50
bucks or a hundred bucks. I have successful web sales letters with sales for about $2,000,
and the whole sale is just made online and the whole sale for that one specifically is made
even without an email follow up. It’s just a sales letter on the page and that’s it.

Fred: Got it. Tell me a little bit more about that. Now, what you’re saying is that there’s
a myth associated with the fact that you can only sell low priced products online. Now,
would it be true to say that in general people aren’t apt to buy your higher priced products
unless they know you and have a relationship with you.

Terry: That is a very good position to take. I actually have several customers
who…they’ve been known to build their first sales into $300-$400. No problem. A lot
of it just has to do with the market, which is a big deal if you’re a niche market. We’ll
talk about just how important your niche market is later. And then again what they’re
selling and how good the offer is.

Fred: Got it. So, many people might have to use a front-end sale under $100 or under
$50, but other sales can be made online for higher price points. But that’s not to say that
you can’t initiate a sale at a $300 or $400 price point if you are in the right niche market
and you make them the right kind of offer.

Terry: Exactly.

Fred: Okay, what about this ? You don’t want to make people scroll down these long
pages. You want to break pages out that have links from page to page.

Terry: That’s another big one that’s talked about, people saying that you should only
have one screen of information; whenever you get passed the one screen, you shouldn’t
have them click to go to another page. And that one we’ve tested.

That one took bothered me enough that I tested it three or four times, and every time the
single sales letter page won. I’m saying they have a ten-page sales letter, and if you print
it out, it’s all on one web page scrolled directly down. That outproduced the clik to
continue method every single time no matter what I did.

Fred: And I have a sign that usually is up in my office here that I am having redone that
says, “Measurement Eliminates Argument.” You know, everybody can talk about what
they think works, but Terry is saying right here that they’ve tested it and his tests show
that clearly breaking up the sales letter into multiple pieces and parts is not as effective as
one long continuous letters.

So, that’s it, folks. You may think differently, you may feel differently. If you want to
test it yourself, go right ahead. If you find your results to be different than ours, please
let us know.

Terry: Exactly. If you want to test that, go ahead. But we’re going to give you quite a
few other things that you should test that could determine a response that we want you to
test first.

Fred: What about this one, Terry, that the Internet is widely different.

Terry: People are saying the Internet, it’s a new medium. You have to have a whole new
sales strategy. But the real key principle of that is something I learned way back from
Gary Halbert who said that writing sales letters is simply salesmanship in print, and I
think it originally came from Claude Hopkins.

The key principle still holds true for the Internet. Online ad copy is still salesmanship in
print. That term simply means that if you took a salesman, his sales presentation he was
doing one-on-one and you just turned it into a transcript, you turned it into a selling piece
by direct mail, it will work online.

Fred: Absolutely. So, it’s the same thing. Last point in this section of the myths of the
online ad copy that I can think of is you can reach the whole world online. That’s what is
so great about the Internet that it’s this big massive thing and you’ve got this huge group
of people you can sell to.

Terry: Well, that comes from a big misconception. I deal with customers with a lot of
myths. Any time the customer or a client comes to me and says, “I have this product that
everybody in the world needs.” I immediately say, “I can’t help you because if you want
to sell it to everybody, you need to go make a deal with somebody like Wal-Mart or some
other big company to sell your product for you.”

If you want to sell online, all the Internet is it’s thousands of little niches broken up in
pieces; such as you might have one niche that is public speakers who want more
information on that. That is their niche. Your product needs to be just for them.

Fred: It’s funny because even within that niche…for me one of my primary niches is
within Public Speakers, which are people who do public speaking - who do seminars
specifically. So, now it’s a niche within a niche.

Terry: Exactly, and that’s what the whole Internet is. If you really think your product is
needed by everyone, the problem online is we can’t target everyone. They need to be
able to find where these people are going, what kind of key words are they looking at in
their searches; and if we can’t do that, we can’t hit them.

Fred: And not only that Terry, but if you think about it, if you have an “everyone”
product, even if you could target them somehow, it would be much more expensive

because think of the key words (and we’re going to talk more about that later) it’s just too
broad, it’s too big an animal to try and take down. You want to try and do it individually
within your niches, right?

Terry: Exactly.

Fred: So, online copy, ad copy as you say is still salesmanship in print. Now, let’s
move on if we could. What I want to talk about is sort of how to craft the perfect web
promotion, and I know that you have an example of how you’re earning an incredible
amount of dollars, the number of dollars per visitor with this type of promotion.

Terry: Well, before I actually get into the specific promotion, I want to talk about the
three keys to any online promotion, the three elements of any good online ad copy.
And the three elements of good online ad copy are number one, the audience, who
you’re marketing it to; number two is the offer, the concept; and number three is the
actual ad copy itself.

And you’ll notice that I put number three as the actual ad copy because that’s the least
important of the three. Number one and number two are much more important: who the
audience is, how interested they would be in this product, whether they know you or not,
whether this is the type of offer they’re interested in, whether they bought products like
this before.

That’s the most important thing over everything is just who the audience is. Number two
is the offer and the concept behind the offer. And that’s something that a lot of people
don’t talk about much when they’re talking about copywriting, but the most successful
part of my copywriting skill is coming up with the offer and the concept. And I spend
more time there than I actually do in writing the sales letter and even editing the sales
letter. It’s coming up with the right offer.

Fred: So, if you put it into an offline analogy, you actually would spend more on that
order page or order sheet than you would on the entire 16-page sales letter that went with

Terry: Well, it’s not even that as much as it would be more of it is going on in my head,
the actual offer, design the offer, and I have a little notebook saying, okay, the offer is
going to include this, this and this. And it’s always coming from the same concept
because my audience is looking for this. And a lot of it has to do with researching their
customers and knowing what they’re looking for, what do they want.

A lot of people, they’re trying to sell to need, they’re saying everyone needs my product.
That’s another big mistake. You always want to find out not what people need but what
they want.

Fred: Well, let’s take a little time to sort of define that difference. What people need is
what? Explain to them about needs.

Terry: Well, people need food, they need shelter. Much further, they don’t actually have
many other needs besides the basic needs, and that’s not what we’re selling to in most
businesses, especially online businesses because you’re not going to be selling very much

Fred: The best analogy I can think of on that is that people who may not be able to
afford their electricity bill somehow afford their payment for their BMW or their

Terry: Exactly, because they want that BMW.

Fred: They want the BMW, the Mercedes. So that I think is an exact example of how
that works. And at this point Terry, what I’m going to do is flip the tape over to the other
side and we’ll continue there.

Section Two: How To Craft the “Perfect Web Promotion”

Fred: Fred Gleeck here, back with Terry Dean, folks. And we’re talking about online
copywriting. We’re on side 2 of tape number 1 here. And Terry, I know you’re talking
here about the concept of the audience, the offer and the ad copy. Now, let’s go a little
deeper into that.

Terry: Actually, there’s a need to give an example. For example, I have one sales letter
that produces an average of 5 percent conversion rate; that means 5 percent of the people
that visit the web site mainly order when they’re coming from the pay-per-click search
engines such as or

Fred: We’re going to talk about that later.

Terry: But that same sales letter, if I have someone like Fred Gleeck endorse it to his list,
my conversion numbers would go up to about 10-11 percent. It would really jump way
up. So, you always have to compare numbers with the same percentage…that would be
referring to the audience. The audience changed. My relationship with the audience
changed. And that’s what jumped the response.

Fred:: So then conversion ratios have got to be spoken about in terms of the audience
and the method used to capture those visitors so that the conversion rate you get from
meeting people face to face in person and sending them to your site would be much
higher than some anonymous meeting that you have if they found you through a search

Terry: Exactly. And let’s say that you have an affiliate program, which basically means
that you have other people selling your products for you from their web site. People who
have their own opt-in newsletter online or an ezine online, when they sit down and email

to the list and send people to their web site, they’re going to get a lot higher conversion
rate than people who have banner ads on their web sites and they come over to your web
site. So, the conversion numbers they’re doing will be different. You always have to
compare the conversion numbers to something exactly the same.

Fred: So, if somebody is bragging about conversion numbers, they also have to look at
the cost of the product you’re attempting to sell. How is that affected?

Terry: Well, that affects a lot too. Actually, to go one step further when I talk about
numbers, I like to talk about my profit per visitor, meaning income per visitor because if
I’m selling $1,000 product, my conversion numbers are a lot lower than when I’m selling
a $50 product.

Fred: But it’s irrelevant because dollars are dollars.

Terry: But at the usual rate, my dollars are actually higher from the higher priced letter.

Fred: Explain that. For people who are listening, they’re saying, Hmm, I’m not sure
exactly what he means by that. So, let’s give two examples: one, let’s say a product
that’s being sold at $50 and the other product that’s being sold at $1,000.

Terry: Let’s say you have a product that’s $50 and we get an awesome conversion
number, an average of 8 percent of visitors who buy the product. Well, with our product,
8 percent of them are buying it; that means that out of every 100 visitors, I’m making
$400. That means that each visitor is worth $4.

But let’s take another product, a $1,000 product. And let’s say that we’ve got a
conversion rate of 1 percent of visitors buying my $1,000 product. That means out of
100 persons, one of them will buy the product. That one person is worth $1,000. There
were 100 persons, and so that means that I’m earning $10 per visitor.

That’s the number I always like to bring it down to - is just how much am I earning per
visitor? And this is just the front end profit that I’m earning per visitor - just from
visitors to this page.

Fred: But now people listening have got to remember one thing on that also, which is it
doesn’t mean you should always be selling thousand dollar products for value per visitor.
Say, for example, that the offer you were making or the way you were promoting this
particular site, it was much easier to get a lot more people promoted to the lower end
product. You might actually make more money promoting the $50 product than the
$1,000 product even though your value per visitor was lower.

Terry: That’s exactly true, too. The only reason I really take it down to the profit per
visitor is that I’m always trying to compare against myself and I’m competing with
myself all the time. I want to know how much I can spend to get visitors to my site, how

and much I am willing to spend. So, if I’m making $4 per visitor, I have no problem
spending $3 for visitors to get there as long as it’s the same type of traffic.

Fred: It’s funny because I was bragging to some of my other Internet marketing friends
that you know about a conversion rate and how much I was making on a particular site.
And that was all well and good and very interesting, and they were interested to hear how
it is I was closing so many people that were visiting.

But the thing that they also asked me was if you’re closing 5 or 6 percent of those people
on a front end product for $100, how many people do you have visiting your site, and the
answer was not too many because it’s a small niche.

So, in actuality, in your comparison, even though you’re competing against yourself the
total amo unt of dollars deposited in your bank account might have been higher from the
lower visitor value because more people were going to that particular part of your site.

Terry: That’s exactly true. For example, my biggest income just for one product is my membership site for which I charge $19.95. That’s a
very low ticket item. We actually average under a dollar per visitor for the first month’s

But where I make the money is that site generates a ton of traffic; it’s right in the top
2,000 web sites on the Internet. And the other thing for that web site is it earns money
every month. So, say I’ll bring a visitor there, he could only be worth a little bit less than
a dollar to me for each visit this month, but I’ll also get paid next month and the next
month. So, we have other products and services that we sell to those members.

Fred: I thing that that really makes it clear for people listening. So, is there anything
else we need to talk about on those three elements: the audience, the offer and concept,
and the ad copy?

Terry: Well, we’re going to keep going back to those ideas as we go through this whole
system, but one thing I do want to show is one of my exhibits – we’ll call it exhibit 1 for
the mailing that we have…

Fred: As opposed to exhibit A, as if you were in a courtroom, right?

Terry: You know, that’s just so we can keep track of the thing. This is a sales letter that
I have that produced…

Fred: Where do people find these exhibits, by the way?

Terry: We’re going to have these exhibits come in…I’m going to be delivering them as a
digital formula online. Anybody who gets the product, I’ll have a digital formula. If for
some reason you didn’t get this down, just email me at and I’ll
make sure you get it, okay?

So, this is a sales letter that I had sent out to my email list. I sent an email to my opt- in
newsletter list, which is over 20,000 people. I told them to go to this web page and it was
just a sales letter straight down the page, and you can see exactly how long the sales letter
is when you look at the exhibit. And this sales letter produced an average of $30 per

Fred: Thirty bucks per visitor.

Terry: Thirty bucks per visitor. And I didn’t want to say that until we told you how to
compute the numbers because you have to remember the big key here is the audience
knew me. That’s one of the big keys for why the numbers are so high, they already knew
who I was and what my newsletter was; and the offer.

I thought of this offer and had asked my audience exactly what they wanted beforehand,
asked them exactly what do you want, and then I worked on the ad copy as the third
principle here. So, all three came into mind and got me $30 per visitor.

Fred: So, you knew who the audience was. You actually asked them in advance what
they’d be willing to buy essentially and then you made them the offer and that’s why the
numbers were so high in this case.

Terry: That’s the reason why we did all that before they got there.

Fred: Absolutely.

Terry: And you can see this is one that starts off…the headline is, “How to Get Your
Own Personal One-On-One Internet Marketing Coach and Virtually Eliminate Any
Chance of Failure.” And you’re going to get them. They can go through and they can
read all the ad copy which will tell you about how this ad works, delivering more as we
go through all of it.

The concept here is another one that we’ll talk a little bit about in sales because in this
sales letter almost the entire sales letter is about who I don’t want to join.

Fred: It’s an exclusionary letter.

Terry: It’s a very exclusionary letter. I even had several of my customers after they
bought it they said, “I really loved that letter because you really didn’t promise very
much. You just told us all the work that we were going to have to do if we were to buy
it,” and that is for a $2,000 product.

Fred: And obviously then that kind of an offer probably wouldn’t work very well when
made out to a larger sort of more general audience.

Terry: Yes. It wouldn’t work to an audience who didn’t know who you were. That
would be one that you would want to use an ezine in. But that’s a great exhibit and it’s a
good one for you to slice some things from when you’re doing a back end offer to your
list or you’re doing some type of consulting or private coaching.

Fred: We said “back end” now a few times. Why don’t we define that for people who
may be hearing that in terms of the first time? What is a back end offer?

Terry: Well, essentially, a back end offer is…we have two terms that we use together – a
front end offer and a back end offer. A front end offer is usually a lower ticket item and
every single one of my clients usually has a product that’s $200 or less as a front end

Online a lot of times it’s $50 or $100 for the front end offer. That is the first product they
try to sell to someone who doesn’t know them. That is the first product they’re trying to
sell on their web site.

Fred: So, front end is the first product you sell, whatever the price may be.

Terry: Yes. The back end is everything else after that. You sold them the first product;
what else are you going to sell them?

Fred: Right. And by the way, your front end product is whatever product that customer
buys first. That would be the frontend product for them, no matter what you intended to
be your front end product.

Terry: Yes. And for my system, the way I’m set up, I have a lot of different webs and
names that have products on them. So, customers come in from all different directions as
front end products. This might be the first product they buy, but as soon as they buy it,
we have othe r ones that we offer them so it goes back and forth. That’s why we have to
use the two terms together.

Fred: I don’t know if we should talk about this right now, but it’s a good time to discuss
it. I always tell people who come to my events that it’s always a good idea to set up a
separate URL for each product that you have. Would you agree with that?

Terry: It’s a really good suggestion mainly because of the fact that URLs are so cheap
now. You can spend $10 bucks or less…

Fred: And actually let me just plug something here, you want to go to I use that primarily for my own use, and I
really don’t make anything off of it, but I have it set at the lowest possible price, which I
think it’s running less than $9 bucks. It’s a good place for people to do it. So, you’re
saying it’s good to go ahead at that rate and get a different URL for yourself.

Terry: I have over a dozen different domains that I sell products on. It’s just an URL.

Fred: Can you see the other side of that argument? Why would people not want to get a
separate URL?

Terry: Well, for example, like this offer, this specific one that we’re talking about. I did
not get a separate URL because it’s not one that I constantly wanted to run this offer. It
was more of a short-term one for this offer.

Fred: Good point.

Terry: It’s because it involves consulting and coaching. It did work on my time so it took
some effort from me. And I don’t ever want to work more than probably a maximum 35
hours a week. That’s the maximum I ever want to work.

Fred: So, you get to that. People went to for that particular page.

Terry: Exactly. And since people expect numbers, we did over $100,000 in sales over
the weekend.

Fred: Over a weekend.

Terry: Three days all together and then it was down, I took the ad down because I
couldn’t take any more customers.

Fred: So, you’re telling me that you actually had to pull the product down because you
were getting too many orders.

Terry: We had more orders than we could handle at the time, and I don’t ever want to be
in a position where we had the sort of orders that you can’t fulfill…

Fred: If you’re listening on tape, let that be your biggest problem because here’s what
we’re saying – we’re saying that Terry was able to in three days generate over 50 sales
with a $2,000 product. Is that correct?

Terry: Yes.

Fred: Again, we should remind people, you went through a list of people who already
knew you, loved you and had bought your product.

Terry: No. Some of them, this was the first product they had ever bought.

Fred: Ah! So, maybe it’s just because they knew your name.

Terry: They knew my name.

Fred: They knew who you were.

Terry: That was one thing that actually surprised me in this offer is that we had just over
50 people buy it before I was able to take it down.

Fred: Before we say anything else, one thing’s really important to tell people listening on
tape. One of the reasons why Terry is so successful is because he has a name on the
Internet, he is held in such high esteem, and people know that if Terry is promoting
something, it’s not going to be some kind of bogus, fly-by-night thing.

You only promote things…you are honest to tell your real members, you don’t lie about
anything, you don’t make up half-truths. And that’s one of the reasons why people who
come in the door and don’t even know you, by your reputation alone; they’re willing to
spend $2,000 bucks.

Terry: And those numbers, just over 50 buyers, 15 of these people never bought
anything from us before. They were not in our customer database.

Fred: My God. So, $30,000 of the revenue came from people who were not even in your

Terry: No, they were not in our database. They were on our email list which we send
out free offers to. But they had never purchased a product.

Fred: So, these are people who had been signed up for a free email or a free some kind of
an easy autoresponder system you put them into, but they had never bought. So, now to
them that $2,000 product became their front end product.

Terry: That became their front end product.

Fred: Now, I would think then that all those $2,000 buyers are ideal customers to buy
much higher priced products.

Terry: Well, they would be, and I’ll tell yo u that we had quite a few sales. We put in a
sales letter and sent out to all those customers for a $2,000 conference that we were
promoting which we got half of because it wasn’t actually my conference. We got half of
it and we sold several of those to those same customers right after they bought this.

Fred: So, that’s when people are in the mood to buy something, the time to sell them
other related items at similar price points.

Terry: Yes, exactly.

Fred: Okay, cool. Let’s take a look then. Is there anything else we need to cover in that
area before we move on in this sort of how to craft the perfect web promotion? We
talked about the audience; we talked about the offer and the concept. I don’t know if you

want to spend time doing it here, but what are the precise elements in an offer? Do you
want to talk about that here or should we talk about that later?

Terry: Well, we’re going to talk about that throughout this whole course. And that’s part
of the reason I wanted to bring it up front and I’ll use this sales letter again as an example
later of coming up with your concept and the right audience. We just have to build all the
foundation as we’re going in this direction.

SECTION THREE: How to Find An Exciting Hook That’s Unique Only
To your Product

Fred: Absolutely. Well, let’s move on here. Let’s take a look at our third section
heading here, which is “How to Find an Exciting Hook That’s Unique Only to Your

Terry: The whole offer begins with a concept. That’s the reason we’re spending so
much time going throughout this whole point. I spend a lot more time coming up with
exactly what my concept is going to be, what my hook is going to be when I’m selling a
product; then I will on the actual writing time itself.

I want you to go down and pick up some of the tabloids, such as The Enquirer, and look
at the headlines they put on their front cover, and every headline the y’re going to have on
their cover is a hook. It’s something that really grabs your attention and gets you to buy
it now because The Enquirer is the most sold newspaper in the world.

Fred: Six million plus readers in the United States.

Terry: And almost all of it is from grocery store sales, from people just picking it up
from the headlines on the front cover. So, guess who some of the highest paid
copywriters in the world are?

Fred: People who read The Enquirer.

Terry: They are so important because that’s how The Enquirer makes their money. So,
that’s something that you need to take as an example.

Fred: But I would say, folks, when you do buy that copy of The Enquirer at your grocery
store, buy it proudly. Don’t try and sneak it behind your back. Okay, I’m sorry. That’s
just a little aside there.

Terry: What you’re going to see is you’re going to see great headlines.

Fred: Exactly!

Terry: And a lot of people think they come up with all these ideas in a vacuum. These
are all brand new things, great trade secrets. No. You know what great copywriters do?
They steal. They steal a lot.

The best copywriters, you find somebody who has been writing ad copy for 20 years,
they’re going to have a whole room full of what they call a swipe file, which is
everybody else’s sales letters all in notebooks which they take out to look at.

Fred: So what you’re suggesting for our listeners to do is start a swipe file.

Terry: Yes, start a swipe file, and part of what we’re doing is when you get the course,
we have a digital file that has a whole bunch of our sales letters that you can use for
starting your own ideas.

Fred: Absolutely. So, what would you suggest? How do you have your swipe file
organized? Do you have it organized by product or topic area or do you just have a
bunch of sales letters sitting in there?

Terry: Well, some of it I have organized by product and topic. But a lot of my swipe
files I also purchased inside of other products. This is one interesting thing to remember.
I’m almost 100 percent online business. We sometimes send out postcards, we
sometimes send our direct mail letters to our customers online. But every customer we
have almost is generated online first. And if you go into my office, the first thing you’re
going to see is my desk has about I would say 25 three-ring binders on it tha t are up on a
shelf right above my desk, and all of those binders are sales letters.

Fred: Twenty- five of those binders.

Terry: Yes, 25 of those binders. And that is what’s on my desk. There’s not anything
on my desk like manuals on how to generate traffic or anything like that. What’s on my
desk are the ad copy samples all over the place. There are all kinds of them. I went on
eBay and bought ad copy samples from Ted Nicholas that people had. I got one from
Gary Halbert, some from Jay Abraham, and others.

I collected all of those things plus all the copy I could find. You can find out that John
Carlton has several out there you can get and they had them all in notebooks. And so I
got those that are on my desk, plus web sites I printed off. I go to people’s web sites and
find a great sales letter, print, and this goes into a three-ring binder.

Fred: We were talking about this earlier before we started doing the taping, but I think it
might be worth it – and without any compensation from John – to promote that which
you described to me earlier, which is John Carlton. He is one of the better copywriters out
there, has a program, and let’s just send people . Where do they find that from John?

Terry: John Carlton is a great copywriter. He’s worked with Gary Halbert, he’s worked
with Jay Abraham, he’s worked with a lot of the other top copywriters, and he charges
about $15,000 plus 5 percent for him to write any ad for you. But he has a web site out
there called

Fred: -

Terry: Yes.

Fred: John, if you’re listening, by the way, just know that we’re heavily promoting your
stuff, so if we ever call you and talk to you, we want something. Anyway, go ahead.

Terry: At that web site is his ad course that he’s written, which he sells for $200. You
can get a swipe file of a lot of his swipe files which probably are headlines. John Carlton
is the best headline writer. There is no one even close. And the swipe files, that’s like

Or he has higher package…we actually don’t know if he’s going to leave the higher
package on there, which he’s selling for between $1,500 and $1,600, like $1,577 or
something. And it includes another swipe file plus email contact with him and the right
to send some of your letters over to him for him to review your sales letters.

Fred: Basically, you can have him as your consultant for a year to help you review copy.
Now, folks, by the time you get there, after listening to this set of tapes, because I’m sure
we’re going to sell a boatload of these, if he isn’t offering that program any longer or
offering it at that price, we apologize.

Terry: And even if he doesn’t have that, he has the swipe file that’s still going to be on
and I recommend you get that.

Fred: Absolutely. Good point. So, let’s then take a look at some of these other things
here. So, what you’re saying is you have to find some kind of an exciting, unique hook
to your product that only you have.

Terry: Yes. We’re going to use other sales letters. The ones that we just did for exhibit
1, the hook was the fact that there is going to be a coach helping you. So, there’s going
to be someone one-on-one who is going to provide you personal help. That was the

Fred: How did you come up with that? Because you keep getting emails from people
and hearing people at events say to you, “You know what, Terry? I just can’t do this. I
wish you could help me personally.”

Terry: Exactly. That’s exactly where it came from. It came from dealing with my
customers, talking to my customers and getting to know my customers. But here’s the
key principle (and I hope we talk about it later) and that is one of the biggest tools of

selling is empathy, which is understanding your customers, understanding how your
customers think.

And there are two ways to do that. The first way that you can get empathy for your
customer is if you were the customer, which for example helped me sell to people who
were in the same situation I was; they’re working in a dead-end job they hate and they
could be working online. I know what they think because I was there.

The other way that you get that is by talking, and you do a lot of talking on the phone and
actually listening. I actually should change this. It’s not talking to your customers; it’s
about listening to your customers.

Fred: A big, big lesson here for a lot of people listening on tape because there are a lot of
marketers of various types, whether they’re Internet or non-Internet marketers, who want
to avo id customers. And I think this is dangerous, because by trying to insulate yourself
from customers you lose touch with what’s really going on; with how they feel, with
what they need, with the things that they could give you to show them how to be sold.
That’s what you really need.

And at this point, let’s go ahead and switch to tape number 2. So, proceed to tape
number 2 at this point, folks.

                             Online Copywriting
                       How to Earn Millions on the Internet
                        by Writing Irresistible Web Sites,
                           Emails and Online Ad Copy

                                           Tape 2

Section Three: How to Find An Exciting Hook That’s Unique Only to
Your Product (Continued)

Fred: Fred Gleeck back with Terry Dean here on Take number 2 on the first side and
we’re talking about online copywriting. If you would, in the beginning of our discussion
about how to find an exciting hook that’s unique only to your product. Let’s pick up
from there, Terry. What else do we have to tell them on that sort of…?

Terry: Well, that statement actually has a lot of terms in it and that has an exciting hook
about The Enquirer having something that just grabs people’s attention. The other thing
is that you want your products to be unique from everything else that’s on the market.
How is your product going to be different than the other person’s products? And
remember, online, if someone visits your web site, it’s not too difficult to find a
competitor not too far away.

Fred: Absolutely.

Terry: So, what’s going to make your product unique? That’s something that’s always
going on in the head also. How is my product different? This comes before you get to the
sales letter part…

Fred: Let me just interject something there, which is if I like becoming unique by being
the only, meaning to say if you narrow your niche down small enough like I’ve done in
some cases, you are unique because you are the only person out there offering a product
in that area.

So that when some people are looking for these large niches to make lots of money, I’d
rather find a really small niche that nobody’s operating in where I can come in and
become king of the niche. So, what’s unique about me? I’m the only one.

Terry: This is the best position to be in. For those who aren’t in that, then you just need
to look at all the competitors, see what they sell and see what they’re missing. And what
I do is I study several things before I write any sales letter or before I even start trying to
come up with a concept is I start studying the customers.

I start looking at the customers. I start trying to find customers by asking them questions,
which again comes back to the empathy I was mentioning. If I was the perfect customer,
it would make the whole process easier because I know what the customer is thinking.

Fred: So, when you ask them questions though, Terry, do you physically get on the
phone and talk to them, or do you email them? How do you contact them to ask them
these questions?

Terry: For me personally…

Fred: I know you’re not a big phone guy.

Terry: I’m not a big phone guy, so what I end up doing is part of the main reason I even
go speak at conferences is to get a chance to get live feedback from customers, get
questions from customers and deal with customers. For a lot of people, how they do it…
clients that I’ve worked with, they do it by phone. They’ll pay for the incoming phone

Fred: And by the way, folks, don’t be offended. Terry, even with his good friends and
colleagues, isn’t a big phone person. And the fact that you sometimes can’t get him on
the phone, frankly he’s a little bit shy. It’s not his style. And he’s doing this right
now…to have him do a program like this is actually asking him to step a little bit out of
his comfort zone because he sort of likes to hang out at home and do his own thing. Is
that right?

Terry: Yes. Well, for customers who want to contact me, the easiest way to contact me
is to email me.

Fred: And you actually answer almost all of those emails because you like that

Terry: That’s one of the things I do is I have a huge customer database, so I actually get
a lot of information by answering the emails too because I get so many emails from

Fred: This is so important because I think there is so much arrogance on the part of most
Internet marketers, where they’re like, “Ugh, I can’t be bothered by emails from those
lowly customers, some of whom haven’t even bought anything from me.” You take the
opposite approach, don’t you?

Terry: I do with the emails. People have different personalities. Some of the customers
I deal with… I’ve had clients who enjoy the phone, so they like taking customer phone
calls and they don’t like doing the emails much so they’ll have somebody else answer the

Fred: I have to say I’m exactly like that. I prefer to be on the phone, but it’s much more
time consuming and I can’t do it on my own time schedule.

Terry: I’m the opposite. I prefer to do the emails because I’m more laid back, and I like
emails because it’s whenever I want to I’ll go back and answer it. If you email me on
Saturday, you will not get a response until Monday. It will not happen. I’m going to
email you a whole lot quicker than other top marketers. They’ll email you in the next

I’ll email you Monday or Tuesday most of the time. So, I think there is a big loss in
there which is if you really want to learn who your customers are, how they think and
how to sell to them most effectively, talk to them, respond to them; and more than just
talk to them, listen to them.

You can do it by email, you can do it by phone, or you can do it live at a conference. All
those are methods of doing it, but you have to hear from your customer.

Fred: Got it. So now we want to make sure that people understand. You have to study
your product and become an expert on it, that’s important; and we’ve been talking more
about studying your customers. Talk a little bit more to me about studying your product
to become an expert on it.

Terry: You have to study your product, and in that you are going to be studying the
competition, as well. What are the big benefits of your product? What will your product
do for someone? Here’s the key concept. A lot of people write sales copy about their

I never write sales copy about a product. I write sales copy about a result. If someone
took my product, they used it, whatever it might be; if it’s information, it could be
something else. It could be a weight loss product. If they use it and do it as I tell them to
do it…

Fred: Here’s what they will…

Terry: …is the result.

Fred: Right.

Terry: And you always work from that. What would be the result? And that’s what
you’re selling. You’re selling results; you’re not selling the product. So change your
whole mindset. This is not your product.

Fred: It’s very different for people to think that way who haven’t really sort of grown up
in the whole feature benefit environment. Basically what we’re asking you to do is
change your mindset when you write your copy and explain your product from ‘here are
the product features.’ You know, it has 450 horsepower if we’re talking about a car etc.

But what’s the benefit? You can zoom by everything on the freeway and get to see your
girlfriend faster, whatever it is.

Terry: Well, I didn’t know when we were going to insert this, but this is a perfect time to
mention it. There are two reasons why people stay and buy something: there’s the real
reason and the reason they tell their friends and their wife, which would be for example…

Fred: So, what is the logical and what is the emotional?

Terry: Let’s say, for example, somebody buys a Mercedes. The logical reason that
they’re going to tell everybody is because…

Fred: It’s a reliable car.

Terry: It is very reliable. It is so reliable…

Fred: Very safe, as well.

Terry: Well, they treat me nicely; they do good work on it. But that’s not the reason
they buy a hundred thousand dollar car. They could buy a Toyota Camry for the same
price. They’re buying a Mercedes for how it makes them feel when they drive it, how
people look at them when they’re driving down the street. And it’s the same for any
sports car. You know, no one in the US is going to be able to drive their sports car at
150, but they like to talk about…

Fred: How fast it could go.

Terry: How fast it could go. They like how people look at them when they drive down
the street in their car. They like how their sports car makes them feel sexy. And so there
is always the reason they tell people and the real reason. When you’re talking about
marketing you always have got to be thinking about what are people’s real reasons.

Fred: So, when we approach people with copy then, we should be approaching them
with what the real reasons are?

Terry: You can approach them with both. You start off with the real reason, which is
usually where your hook is going to be when you’re focused on the real reason, which is
the emotional reason. But later on, you’re going to give them the logical reason because
you’re going to give them what they’re going to tell everyone else.

Fred: Because people buy based on emotion, but they back it up with logic.

Terry: Yes, they justify their decision with logic, and that’s how they’re going to defend
their decision with everybody else of why they spent money on the $100,000 car instead
of the $20,000 car.

Fred: And I know it’s really important when we’re talking about copy that we
understand what keeps people up at night, and the reason for that is?

Terry: Well, the thing is what are they worried about? What are their dreams? What are
they afraid of? And if you know what they’re thinking about at night and what keeps
them worried or keeps them dreaming at night, you’re going to be able to hit their hot
buttons of what they’re interested in. For example, let’s say that you’re dealing with a
businessman who makes a million dollars a year. You can’t come to him and say, “Hey

Fred: “I’m going to show you how to make more money.”

Terry: “I’m going to show you how to make more money.” Especially if it was Fred or I,
he’d be like, “Does it require me to do anything?” You’re not going to get a response.

Fred: Time.

Terry: We’ll show you how to ge t more time or we’ll show you how to pay less taxes.
That might be what they’re worried about at night. We’ll show you how to avoid IRS
audits. It will be something that they might be worried about at night.

Fred: Right. So, in other words, if you’re dealing with a highly affluent market, your
approach is going to be totally different, or any market you’ve got to understand and
really get into their shoes, and that’s what you were saying earlier.

If you’ve been one of those people, you know what makes you stay up at night thinking.
But if you haven’t been, you really have to spend a lot of time corresponding and talking
to these people to understand what is it, what’s their biggest concern?

Terry: What are their biggest fears? What are their biggest dreams?

Fred: I think about the example of people who do professional speaking. I’ve been
speaking professionally for almost 20 years now. And I know the biggest concern right
now on the part of professional speakers is they’re not getting booked by a lot of
corporations via their own means or through speakers’ bureaus, but they’re frustrated
because they can’t do as many gigs as they want. They love getting up in front of groups
of people.

That’s why when I do my programs on how to do your own seminars, it’s like okay,
folks, you’re a big ham, you like getting up in front of groups of people. Why not do it
yourself? Why wait for anyone else? That’s their biggest concern. How do I get to do
more of those because I really love being up there. I feed off of that attention. That’s
what they are thinking. So that’s where I’m trying to target it.

Terry: And the more you know about your customers, the easier it will be to write to
them. And this is part of the reason people who are outside marketing get so shocked by

the amount someone charges, like I mentioned before when we talked about John Carlton
that he charges $15,000 plus 5 percent.

The reason they charge so much is because they have to go in and study the marketplace.
They will not write a sales letter until they know what the customers are thinking, until
they know how good the product is, what the end result of the product is, because they
can’t. And the process, if you’re starting from scratch and don’t know anything, you
might have to work on it for two weeks to a month just too…

Fred: Right. You’ve got to immerse yourself in the market and understand what their
fears are, and that’s going to take them a while and that’s why they command those fees.

Terry: And sometimes another reason people will hire an outside copier even if they’re
really good is because they don’t even see everything themselves out there in the market.

Fred: I think that’s a great point. I think that if you’re in a market yourself and if you’re
listening on tape right now, one of the things to remember is let’s say you’re a plumber
and you think you know all of the plumber problems and issues that keep them up at

Make sure that you circulate that sales letter before you put it out to other plumbers and
other people in your field to make sure that you’ve really hit on what it really is that’s
important because maybe you’re too close to it. Is that true?

Terry: That’s exactly true. Another big example that we talk about from the past is that
we have a group of resources of copywriting books that people should buy. One of the
really good ones is “Scientific Advertising,” which was written by Claude Hopkins.
Claude Hopkins talks about going to different manufacturers like the beer manufacturer
that he went to. When he went there he was supposed to write ad copy for them, and he
studied everything they did there.

He spent days there looking through and seeing everything, and he was actually shocked
by the whole process they went through to make sure that everything was pure. They had
150 different things that they were doing to make sure it was pure. And he talked to the
manager and said,” There are things I never knew about here.” And the manager says,
“Well, everybody does that, you know, because nobody’s…”

Fred: No one knows about it.

Terry: Nobody knows it, so he invented the idea of what he called “pre -emptive
advertising,” which was to tell everybody what the story…

Fred: …what was already obvious to the manufacturers. An example on that that I can
remember is how when Ivory Soap came out with their campaign that they were 99 and
44/100 percent pure. Well, every soap is about that same level of purity, but Ivory Soap
was the first one to bring it to the attention of the general public. And so those are the

kinds of things that sometimes you may be too close to really see. Is that what you’re

Terry: And that’s one of the ones we were talking about, what I mean by researching
their product. They had to bring somebody else in to research their product, saying I
didn’t know this, I didn’t know any of that. And that’s exactly where they built their
whole market, based on telling everybody the whole story.

Fred: You can’t be too close to your situation either. Now, the other thing is you really
need to…as we talked about, the idea of a swipe file is to study your competitors and
print out all of their ads and sales copy for ideas.

Terry: There are two differences. Plagiarism is when yo u take something word for word.

Fred: And copy it.

Terry: And then you copy it. Idea generation and research is when you look at it and just
take ideas. You don’t take the exact working that anybody has.

Fred: Right. I always used to say if you take one person’s work and copy it, its
plagiarism; you take five people’s work, you copy it with modification and its research.
In other words, you need to look at multiple competitors to see what they’re saying.

Terry: Yes, look at multiple competitors and see what they’re doing. And this is
something people don’t like to do, but you need to buy your competitors’ entire product;
see how they deliver it and follow-up on the backend; who’s doing it right, who’s doing it

Fred: It’s an interesting point because a lot of people like to get freebies from their
competitors. And I think that maybe misses the point because you’re not getting to see
how you’re treated as an actual customer.

Terry: That’s exactly right. Well, I have a secret…

Fred: Name?

Terry: Not name. I have a friend who buys stuff for me. He has it shipped to him and I
go over and pick it up.

Fred: Very interesting, because I was going to say that that would be the way to do it
because it’s just like a restaurant critic. If you walk in the door and you’re some big,
well-known critic and people know your face, they treat you much differently.

So, when Terry Dean orders and they see an order from Terry Dean and they see Indiana
from there, they’re going to go oh, my God. But when you have your special friend buy

for you, then what’s going to happen is he is going to get the treatment, and you sort of
quiz him on how he was treated and everything else.

Terry: Yes, and you see how long it takes to get everything, and then you could go and
pick up the package yourself.

Fred: Perfect.

Terry: And, of course you’re not dealing with the marketplace. You don’t have to do
that. You just buy it yourself and see how they treat you and how everything works.
And what you’re looking for is you’re looking for an avid customer; what makes you feel
good as a customer, what makes you feel used as a customer.

Fred: I can give you one example from my own experience which is that when you study
your competition and you see what’s going on, one of the things that always annoyed the
crud out of me is when I order something, I want it now, and so many people weren’t
getting me stuff immediately.

Now, I think that people are very understanding. If you can’t ship a product out
immediately, just email them, say hey, got your order, thanks very much. Unfortunately,
because of this and this reason, I can’t send it to you today like I normally would, that
kind of thing.

Terry: So many times its part of the reason I get upset with the companies who wish to
sell for you because some of the companies, the fact is that they ship too slowly for my
customers. I mean a week, two weeks before they ship.

Fred: And it’s a good point for people listening on tape, you should know that you do
your entire fulfillment yourself.

Terry: Yes, my wife does it.

Fred: You meaning you the entity of Terry Dean plus his lovely wife. Now, in my case,
I do all my fulfillment myself, as well, and the reason is because I don’t want to have a
lack of control in the element of the process that I think is critical for success with your
customers which is delivery time.

Terry: We want to get delivery time. If they don’t get good delivery time, they’re not
going to get good back end sales. With every product we ship out, we have sales letters
that go in with it.

Fred: Absolutely.

Terry: You just drop them in with it and they buy more stuff, and if you don’t have it on
time, you don’t get any more orders.

Fred: You got it. So, now you want to study competitors, as we’ve just said. We’ve
given you some ideas for that. You also want to look for interesting information, human
interest stories and a powerful hook. Why don’t we talk about that a little more?

Terry: Okay. My favorite, first, is a human interest story because people love human
interest stories. You go to the Enquirer, what are most of the stories in there? - Human
interest stories.

Fred: Look at the books “Chicken Soup for the Soul” and all the related products; those
are all human interest stories.

Terry: They’re all human interest stories. People love them. So, I love to write sales
copy with human interest, and that’s the first place I’ll go to. We’ll say as an example
that I have in the notes. Let’s go to…this is being a little wild on the headlines but we’ll
talk about this…

Fred: What exhibit is this?

Terry: This is going to be exhibit 2. And on this one, my headline on this ad copy is :
“Kidnap a Top Internet Marketing Guru and Interrogate him Until he tells you Every
One of his Proven Money-Making Secrets for Generating Massive Loads of Cash from
Low or No Cost Internet Marketing.”

Fred: And that was an interview that Terry and I did about a year ago now. And what
happens is that was the ad copy that you came up with for that particular product.

Terry: And the reason is because we were in a New York hotel room and you showed up
at the hotel room and basically you interviewed me for six hours. So, that’s what the ad
copy goes through - is I was kidnapped and for six hours while he grilled me for all of my
secrets of what I learned.

And that’s what builds throughout this whole ad as you read through it, is that’s the
concept the ad’s built on. If you want to talk to me personally I actually charge $1,000 an
hour now, so you get six hours of interview, which would be a $6,000 value of me
revealing all my secrets to a professional interviewer who’s done over a hundred of these
interviews with people.

Fred: Lots of them, yes. Terry, it’s interesting when you say that because you set your
rate at $1,000 primarily because you don’t really want to be doing a whole lot of talking
over the phone; but if someone is willing to pay you $1,000 bucks, you certainly will.

Terry: Well, I slowly went up to there. I was at $50 bucks, and then we had too many
customers. We went to $100. My most recent price was $500 and we still would get
more than I wanted, three or four a week but I didn’t want them. And now at $1,000 we
get one or two a week, which is about where I would like to have it for the consulting

Fred: So, for those of you listening, that’s how you…it’s a good thing to talk about right
now, which is how do you set prices? You set prices based on demand and what it is you
want to be doing with your time. Could you elaborate on that for a second?

Terry: Exactly. For example, recently a company from Indianapolis, which is about an
hour away from me, emailed me and said hey, “I had a referral from someone else that
you are a top marketer for…that you could help us with our business. It was a major
company, over $10 million a year for the company.”

And he emailed and he said, “We would like for you to come on site and help us for the
afternoon. How much would you charge us?” I emailed him back and said; “I’m going
to charge you a lot if you actually want me to drive there and show up” and they were
like okay. So, I sent them a price for how much I would charge to actually show up…

Fred: Did they do it?

Terry: Yes, they’ve done it and…

Fred: Ooohweee!

Terry: …we’ve set up a monthly retainer…

Fred: Ooh, love that!

Terry: …working with them and actually showing up once a month.

Fred: So, this is a client you actually physically show up and do something for. Now,
you probably hate that more than actually picking up the phone, don’t you?

Terry: Yes, I actually do.

Fred: Do you want to share with people what that rate is, approximate?

Terry: I don’t want to share…

Fred: But it’s high.

Terry: It’s high. I like the person so it’s not…

Fred: And that’s a good point. When you’re doing Internet marketing and you’re doing
any kind of marketing, your fees are going to reflect two things: the value of your work;
and number two, how much of a pain in the neck or not a pain in the neck the client is.

Terry: Yes. If you have a client that is real annoying, like always argues with you and

Fred: The price doubles.

Terry: The prices double. They have a “pain in the neck” fee. But I like this person, so
it’s not as outrageous as you would expect my fee to be because I really like him.

Fred: Perfect. I think that’s a good example. Okay, good. Well, let’s not get too far a
field here, but I think this is all related to what we’re trying to do because people are
going to be generating those kinds of jobs and working themselves as they do it.

Terry: Yes. And again, we’ll go right to the concept. The concept was that I’m working
from there. I was kidnapped, I was made to reveal all my secrets, here’s what you’re
going to see. That’s a different concept than what they’ve seen anywhere else. And I’ve
tried to work on that a lot with all my sales copy, come up with some type of concept
that’s a human interest story. For example, one that I’ve used a lot in the beginning was I
used my own story. Well, I started from nothing.

Fred: Right and I think it’s a lot of times…at this point; it must be difficult for people
who hear the kind the numbers you’re doing to believe that you really were delivering
pizzas for $8 bucks an hour.

Terry: And for that, I’m actually going to pull out…we’re going to go to exhibit 3 and
talk about that in the notes. And in exhibit 3, which is the sales letter that you can
quickly any place set up, “Fully automated Internet businesses in 42 days or less.”
There’s a little sub-head above it, it says “Small town Indiana Farm Boy Humiliates
Internet Gurus by Training Thousands of Average Joes How to Start One Super Charged
Internet Business After Another.”

Now, this sales letter, again, it’s another rather long sales letter. It has two pages of my
entire story, telling you everything about my story, even more than what I usually tell on
tape, talking about how we actually…we were so poor sometimes we searched our couch
to go out to McDonald’s.

Fred: Did you ever do this, Terry? Did you ever think about taking, because you were
$50,000 in debt…you had a lot of credit card bills, didn’t you? Did you ever think about
taking those credit card bills and maybe putting an X next to some of the numbers and
actually making copies of those to show people how much you really were in debt?

Terry: That would be a good idea, but I don’t know if we actually have any…

Fred: In other words, if people are thinking along these lines and if they’re thinking
about how to write good ad copy, one of the things they need is proof and one of the best
ways to prove something is either with a copy of a check or a copy of a bill if you’re
trying to show how in debt you are. Would you agree with that?

Terry: Exactly. Well, one of the things I have – and this is the same sales letter, we’ll
talk about this for proof of who I am – this sales letter…also the reason I use “Small town
Indiana farm boy humiliates Internet gurus” is because there’s a web site of mine that
you can find out and compare one thing to another, which is at, you can see how popular something is…

Fred: Let’s give that to people:,

Terry: And I told them in this sales letter, look up my name, Terry Dean, and then put in
any other Internet guru and look at their name and do a comparison and you’ll see how
much more popular I am. My numbers are over 600,000 searches.

Fred: And mine this morning was under a thousand, because a lot of my stuff is done
offline. So, I’m absolutely embarrassed, Terry. But again, when you put in Terry’s name
versus mine, 667,000 or something like that versus another and that really is an indicator
and again a great way to prove your point.

Terry: Yeah, it’s to the point and let’s talk about that, the other Internet guru, the highest
one was 170,000. And, again, that comes back to my human interest story; a small town
Indiana farm boy humiliates the Internet gurus.

Fred: Right, because here it is, all these supposed experts, your humble beginnings
produces results that are literally triple and quadruple in terms of traffic.

Terry: It still works for the ad concept which, in my own business I’ve always tried to
stay away from the term “Internet guru.” I like the term “Internet marketing coach” or
“Internet marketing consultant” because I can help other people succeed.

I’m nothing special and I’ll work on that and the same sales letter works on that whole
concept that I’m nothing special. You know, I came from here, I basically dropped out of
college, I was delivering pizzas and I failed at about everything you could imagine but
now I do this.

Fred: And just to add a little aside there. He’s got to keep up with his brother who is one
of the top Neurosurgeons in the country. So, that I find interesting and now quickly
creeping up on his income.

Terry: He works a lot more than I do.

Fred: He works a lot more than you do is right.

Terry: And again, as you can see, I keep trying to work on the concept of a human
interest story. There’s another sales letter that we don’t have as an actual exhibit, but it’s
in our sales letter file…

Fred: You know what? Good time at this point to turn the tape over to the B side and
we’ll cover what that particular sales letter is.

Section Four: How to Write Unstoppable Web Headlines

Fred: It’s Fred Gleeck, back here with Terry Dean on the B side of tape number 2. And
Terry, you wanted to give an example.

Terry: In our swipe file that we’re providing you, it’s not listed as one of the exhibits, but
you can look for it and find the “Truck Driver” headline and that one there is another
human interest story. It is about an associate that I created a teleconference tape set with,
named Frank Garon who was a truck driver before he started his Internet business. And
the story also is the fact for the first few years of his business; he didn’t have any of his
own products. He just sold other people’s product.

And so there the human interest story was about how this New Jersey truck driver…I’d
have to look this up, it doesn’t come to my mind at the moment but it was over $130,000.
I had a specific number there. We’ll say $132,346.15 per year online without any of his
own products. And you can see the specifics from the headline…I told him, “Hey, how
much does your IRS form say you netted last year?” So that’s what we put on there
exactly. If anybody ever calls me about the number, we have an exact number.

Fred: Yeah, you’ve got proof.

Terry: And that was the concept for the story is how this truck driver went from driving a
truck for I think it was $14.25 an hour to having an Internet business making over
$100,000 a year without any of his own products.

Fred: Yeah, I think it’s great because a truck driver is…I mean that’s the kind of
profession that you don’t normally associate with someone taking off and doing their
own Internet marketing business. And if you’re a truck driver or anything else in that
field or area where it’s traditionally associated with more sort of blue collar hard labor
kind of work, you know that you can do this as well, and that’s a perfect example.

Terry: So, that’s again another human interest story. Hopefully, these little examples are
giving you ideas of how you can do your own human interest story and look at a lot of
the really powerful headlines that you’re going to find other people’s sales copy and
you’re going to find a lot of human interest stories.

The advantage is if I work that into a headline that means my introduction gets to be in
the story too, and it gets to be a powerful introduction about this person, telling you about
this person.

Fred: I think that Terry, a lot of times people might work a little bit too hard on this stuff
at a certain point, and I think one of the things that you want to tell people is that they
should study but also spend some time relaxing.

Terry: Yes. My actual process is I do all the things we talked about: study your
customers, study your product, stud y the competition and then I quit. And most of my
headline ideas…I can tell you exactly where I was when I came up with the concept for
the interview you and I did together with the kidnapping.

That concept came up when I was driving my ATVs through my woods. I was just
driving around for an hour or two, it was like there it is, and that’s the concept. And I
went in the house, wrote down the note for it, went back to riding my ATV and had more
ideas driving around.

Fred: A friend of mine who is a fellow speaker has a way of describing that. And he
calls it - put the little man in your head to work in the basement. And what happens is if
you implant the idea that you’re trying to come up with and just put it in your mind, have
you ever been sitting there and all of a sudden you go, “Oh, that’s it!” And “that’s it”
experience is your little man in your head that went down to the basement and was doing
his work and all of a sudden he popped up and said, “I got it!”

Terry: And this is how far it goes into putting it out of your mind, because almost
without fail it will never come to me when I’m carrying a notebook around. If I’m not
carrying a notebook, that’s when I get the ideas. I get most of my great sales copy ideas
when I’m sitting there playing the X-Box, riding ATVs or even at the mall shopping, it’s
like there’s the idea. I need a piece of paper. I’ve written business ideas on napkins,
everything you could imagine around.

Fred: Because I think that your mind is much more open to new and more sort of
creative concepts when you aren’t physically thinking about it, when your subconscious
is thinking about it.

Terry: But here’s the principle. A lot of people will take that and they don’t do the first
part, which is the research…because none of these ideas that I mentioned, that I told you
throughout here, are brand new. They’ve all been seen somewhere before. They’ve been
done in the past.

Fred: Absolutely.

Terry: As a matter of fact, I run an Internet business and this is going to shock a lot of
people, but I get a lot of my product concepts from looking at products that were sold 20,
or 30 years ago by other marketers, big marketers in the direct mail sales. They had a
product about this. How does that apply today?

Fred: Exactly. I think that’s a perfect example. I think it’s probably a good time now to
move on to our fourth section here, which is on How to Write Unstoppable Web

Headlines. You were telling me this earlier off tape, which is John Carlton gave you an
idea for a copy change of your headline, and we may want to use that as an example and
what the effect was on your total revenue. Why don’t you explain that one, Terry?

Terry: Well, this would be the next exhibit. Which exhibit are we on now, number 4?

Fred: We’re up to four.

Terry: So, exhibit number 4, this is another copy piece that we have, which is the product, which is a product to teach you how to start
your membership site that we sell for $97. And on this product, this is one that I bought
the reprint rights to this product. It was written by Monique Harris who wrote the
original product.

I wanted to have an advantage over anybody else who had reprint rights to it, so I wrote a
second little ebook to go with it that tells you how to advertise your membership site after
you started it, and I put it together. But I kept her ad copy. All I did was add in some of
my own ad copy.

This is kind of shameful for me to admit, but I was lazy and never went through it and
actually tested the headlines or changed stuff out. It worked good, it made me a lot of
money. The first time I put the offer up, I made $10,000. So I was like that’s a lot of
money, so I kind of went on to other projects and didn’t come back to this.

Fred: Right. But the real question is not how much money you’re making, but how
much money could you be making.

Terry: Could you be making. And the product was basically making us about $5,000 a
month. And I was just sitting there making about $5,000 a month. You’ll hear this on
the tape. Part of my concept is I have a lot of different income streams bringing in little
incomes. One might be bringing in $2,000; one might be bringing in $5,000, or $8,000.
All of them require very little work. So you combine the bunch and that’s where you get
my 30 to 35 hours a week and you get this large income.

Fred: Right. So, you have lots of different products there requiring minimal work once
set up that bring in all sorts of income.

Terry: And this product has been earning $5,000 a month for about two years, on and
off, sometimes a little lower, depending on the advertising we’re going to. And I sent it
over to John Carlton, the sales letter. He looked at the sales letter, he said it’s a good
sales letter, but I suggest you change this in the headline. And all he did was change like
six words of the headline. And that’s all he did, he just changed that.

Fred: Tell us what it was before and then tell us what it is now.

Terry: Okay. The actual headline before said, “Never Before Seen Strategies for Quickly
Turning an e-Newsletter into $20,000 a month.”

Fred: So, “Never Before Seen Strategies,” okay.

Terry: Now it is, “Who Else Wants to Learn the Hidden Secrets of Quick Return.”
That’s the difference. It’s “Who Else Wants to Learn the Hidden Secrets” is what he
suggested, and that changed, bumped up the response to right about 65 percent, which
now the site is earning $3,000 a month more.

I actually use that as a story of my big stupidity, which there was no reason why I
couldn’t have come up with that headline. I have all these swipe files and I could have
come up with ideas like that.

Fred: But you needed an outsider to look at it.

Terry: I needed an outsider to look at it and I was too lazy to ever actually do it, but if we
actually had this two years earlier it would have been about an extra $70,000 over the two
years. So, that’s one of my $70,000 mistakes.

Fred: That’s a great example, and I think everybody can learn from that which is you do
need that outside input and help. So, you have to sort of think like a P.T. Barnum and the
Enquirer like we were talking about earlier.

Terry: You actually have to think about how… go back to the past and how did P.T.
Barnum think of making something exciting.

Fred: For people listening who aren’t familiar, who was P.T. Barnum?

Terry: P.T. Barnum? Well, he was the original creator if you go back to the Barnum &
Bailey Circus. But that’s not the only thing he did. There is actually…probably the best
book, if people want to learn more about him is Joe Vitale has a book on P.T. Barnum
that they could pick up.

Fred: And just to let people know, P.T. Barnum was known as probably the foremost
self-promoter in the country.

Terry: And that’s part of where he got the circus idea from was he was about all kinds of
interesting ideas, some of the concepts you’d never think of.

Fred: Attention getting ideas.

Terry: For example, a guy who was outside of his museum - he had a museum at the
time – he would have bricks moved back and forth in front of the museum. And that’s all
he was doing and every once in a while, he’d go into the museum. And every time he

went into the museum, people followed him in and paid the price to get into the museum
just because they were interested in watching this weird guy.

Fred: Right. What’s being built, what’s new?

Terry: So, he ended up having people follow him. So, every hour he had people follow
him into the museum paying just because they wanted to see him. He worked for the
museum. And he had all kinds of ideas like that, and you got to partly think about
yourself like that.

One of the misconceptions people have is people think that P.T. Barnum said that,
“There’s a sucker born every minute.” He never actually said anything like that. He was
always trying to give customers value, but do it in an exciting way.

Fred: In a fun way.

Terry: In Joe’s book, he actually said a phrase, something like, “There’s a customer born
every minute.”

Fred: “There’s a customer born every minute” was in fact the actual term. Right. So,
you have to sort of think a little bit P.T. Barnumish and think a little bit like the Enquirer,
come up with these outrageous, outlandish ideas.

Terry: Exactly, because let’s go back to the exhibit we’ve already showed. I can say
Fred Gleeck interviewed me.

Fred: Not nearly as exciting as an Internet Marketing Guru Captured.

Terry: Captured and forced to tell all his secrets. That’s much more exciting to bring in.
And that’s what you always want to think of is how can you make the subject exciting,
even on subjects that wouldn’t be that exciting. And that’s what I’m talking about.

Think about P.T. Barnum, think like a promoter – how are we going to make this story
exciting? How is your story exciting? My story is the rags to riches story that I have.

For example, we talk about diet ads. How many diet ads have you seen without someone
losing 50 pounds or 100 pounds? How many ads ha ve you see that haven’t had that in it?

Fred: Very few.

Terry: The reason is they wouldn’t do very well without showing the exciting results.

Fred: So, in order to get these headlines to where they need to be, we need to write and
start with a lot of them, right? We can’t just pick one and just use it, right?

Terry: No, you definitely don’t because after the study process, the next thing I spend a
lot of time on is I spend a lot of time on headlines. The way I come up with headlines is
I’ll look through my swipe files of headlines. There’s an idea for a headline. How would
I write that headline about my product? Okay, then there’s another one. Hey, let’s write
this one about my product because it’s similar; you know, changing the words about my
product but it’s all in the same kind of idea.

And it was kind of funny. At a recent seminar, we had a panel discussion where they
asked us, “How do you come up with your headlines?” And the answer of everybody at
the discussion was, “I look at a bunch of headlines.”

Fred: You basically get stimulated by looking at other people’s headlines. For example,
some of the ones that people heard here on tape, they can use those headlines and adapt
them to their own particular market.

Terry: Exactly. And what you’ll see is a lot of the headlines; they’ll start as one thing.
I’ll write down the headline and I’ll be thinking about it, go out to lunch, go out to dinner,
and I’m like hey, that would probably be better if I just added a couple of words to it.
Hey, we’ll add this into the headline. So the same headline usually has changed.

Fred: How much time do you actually spend on headlines?

Terry: I would actually say that I actually spend probably two to three hours actually
working on headlines, looking it up, and then some time in between that I break and
actually just mediate in the back of my mind when I’m playing. You know, playing is an
important part of my life.

Fred: And so the thing to realize is don’t take your headline lightly. It’s the most
important part of your web copy or any copy for that matter; and therefore it needs a lot
of thinking, a lot of thought, a lot of swipe file looking at; but after that really…I mean
just spend the time.

Terry: And here’s the interesting thing. After I’ve done all this other work…you know
we’ve been talking about doing a lot of work up to this point and the headlines are a lot
of work. My actual writing of the ad usually doesn’t take more than two hours.

So, my headline takes longer than the ad because when I’m writing the headline, a
headline is the ad for the ad. The headline is telling you what’s going to be in the ad.
The whole concept is in my head by the time I’m done with the headline, so I just write
the ad at that point.

Fred: And then when people have a headline, and they see or come up with another good
or what they think would be a better headline, what we want to do is obviously test them.

Terry: You want to test them. Just think about the one that I just mentioned, the exhibit
we got of the extra headline suggestion I got from John Carlton; how much extra money
that would have made me if I would have…

Fred: Done it earlier.

Terry: …asked for a suggestion two years earlier. And just that little difference in

Fred: Why don’t we talk a little bit about the mechanics of testing the headlines? I don’t
want to get into any kind of specific Internet marketing or Internet technical course, but is
there a simple and easy way for people to set up two different web pages with the only
thing being different is the headline and figure out which one is pulling better?

Terry: There are a lot of ways to do that technically. Here is a really easy method. I
have a script, it’s at This is a program that anyone
can download free and you can hand it to your web developer and tell him to put this on
your site. And it will be real simple. It’s a really easy script for anybody who knows
CGI, which if you don’t, then give it to someone else.

You could probably put it up. If you hire someone else they’ll charge you $50 bucks.
And what this product does is you can put two different web site addresses in it and it
gives you one link to advertise so you advertise this one link and it automatically sends
people to different web sites.

Fred: So, it automatically does A-B, A-B, and A-B?

Terry: And they’ll go to the first person here, the second person on the next site. And
you just put your same sales letter up on both pages, a different headline, the ad copy
exactly the same.

Fred: So you only want to vary one variable at a time because if not, you won’t know
what’s causing your change in results?

Terry: And the most important thing for the test is number one, the headline. Number
two, I would call it the specific offer and pricing is the second most important thing.
They’re going to know exactly what they’re getting and payment plays into it also.

Sometimes you’ll find that if you offer payments, the responses might go three times as
high. So, that goes in there, too. And you might only want to deal with those two
because outside those two, the responses can change but they’re a lot smaller than what
you’re going to find on those two.

Fred: So, what you’re saying is the two main things you want to change are headlines,
the test headlines, and offers and pricing. Perfect. So, those are the ways we want to do
it. You want to test one headline against another. Then in addition to your main headline

…you know, we always talk about those of us who do a lot of copy writing, we talk about
a pre-head, a headline, and a subhead. What are the different elements? When you say
headlines, you’re really referring to a few different things.

Terry: When I’m talking about headlines, I’m referring to all those things, because if you
look at the exhibits we’ve already shown you, you can see that there’s a lot going on in
the headline. There are a lot of different things being said, and there will be one topic,
one sentence, then another one, then another one because the advantage we have online is
we’re not limited by space which is a big advantage. You don’t have to worry about if
my letter goes over ten pages; I’m going to pay extra.

Fred: Right. Because what we’re used to thinking about in the direct mail business is
how many pages can I fit on to something that will go into a number 10 envelope with a
separate order sheet and only go out for 56 cents or whatever it is for the two ounce letter.

Terry: And we don’t have to worry about that. So, never, ever skimp on your headline.
And there used to be another rule that was said by a product marketer which was he never
put more…

Fred: Seventeen words.

Terry: Seventeen words in a headline.

Fred: It was Ted Nicholas who said that.

Terry: But that has been proven wrong for most situations. Most likely, knowing Ted
who tested so much, it probably was right for his market.

Fred: At that time.

Terry: At that time. But for us, we’re finding that a lot of my headlines, when you read
through them, if you add up all the words, we might have 70, 80 words in all the different
lines put together. Because you only have a few seconds to grab someone’s attention and
you have to hit them hard with the headline and get their attention in those few sections
or else you’re going to lose them forever.

And that’s why the headlines are so important. They’re so vital. I do a lot of web site
reviews for people. I’ve done a lot in the past, and probably the biggest thing that they
miss is headlines. And a lot of people who even know – they’ve bought my material,
they’ve read the material, they’ve listened to my tapes, they still don’t have a headline on
the web site. I’d say 50 percent of the people that they’ve already read my material, they
still don’t have a headline.

Fred: They’ve become convinced by these image marketing types, these graphic
designers, that that’s just going to destroy the look, that that doesn’t look pretty. I think
that’s probably one of the primary motivations for not doing that. And so if you aren’t

putting headlines on the top of your web sites or your ad copy, you got to change it
because it just doesn’t work as well.

Terry: Well, I would say it doesn’t work at all. Most of the sites I’ve been to…and that’s
part of the reasons…you could be an absolute hero…people who are listening to this
series could go out and almost be at the point where they could make a lot of money
consulting on people’s web sites just by what we’re telling yo u in this series and the rules
we’re talking about.

Fred: Terry, that brings up an important point, which is this. I think that people should
be aware not to ever make the assumption that a web site is doing well unless they
actually know the numbers of that site, because people will go out…and I’ve seen this
happen before. They go, “Oh, I found this tremendous site and I just copied their look
and everything.” I said “Well, why would you want to copy that site if you didn’t know
what the results were?” “Well, they’re like a really big company and they must be doing
really well.” I said, “How do you know that?”

Terry: I got a couple of funny stories for that one and this is I have a client that I went to
their web site and I looked at it and I told him all kinds of things I wanted him to change
because they were all wrong, and they were laughing. The next week he told me, “Look,
we found these two competitors who stole our web pages. They stole them exactly as we
had them before we made the pages.” So, their site is still working…(Laughs)

Fred: Perfect. Get your competitors to steal the non-working version of your site.

Terry: I have the same thing. Since I do a lot of testing, I’m always testing and changing
things. And a lot of times, I’ll test with because it generates so
much free traffic. And I’ll have people talking. Somebody’s saying, “Oh, look, Terry
Dean’s doing it,” so everybody copies it.

Fred: It was just a test!

Terry: It was just a test that changed in the next week because it didn’t work.

Fred: I love it, that’s perfect. So, I think we’ve pretty much given people all of the
methods of creating and writing unstoppable headlines. Anything else you want to give

Terry: One of the main things is they just need to concentrate on working it and really
work on those swipe files, especially the ones that we have and the manual we provided
for you there, the actual digital manual, where you get my headline book.

You know a couple of words you’re going to find real often is you’re going to find words
like “quickly” and “easily” are often used throughout the headline. Why? Because it
usually gives a slight little bump to the response because people like it when something is
quick and easy, so you will see those words used a lot.

You’ll see a lot of other words; you’ll see a lot of models. Use those headlines as
models. Again, don’t steal all the words, but you might see the first five words on a page,
“How to start …” might be the first words. You can repeat that. Or “How to quickly and
easily …”, and build yourself…

Fred: I think the best one that I always like – I mean the one that Carlton did for you –
“Who else wants to…”

Terry: And you can actually write that ad for anything. “Who else wants to” is the
beginning of my headline. Then fill in the benefits that you studied and that people want.
And you use that as a model. Use those as models to start your sales letters. The reason
why is because we provide you with all these sales letters because we know they work.

Fred: Right, exactly. Well, that’s it. So, I think that we’re pretty well done with talking
about headlines. Let’s go ahead a look quickly before we have to flip over here and
move tapes, let’s take a look at section 5 in my notes here which is our “Internet Ad

Terry: This is going to take us a while to go through it all and on this section, it gets
down to my basic step-by-step plan and how I write my own Internet ad letters. I do the
same thing every time. My ad follows the same model every time, and so I’m going to
teach you my exact model that I use for my sales letter.

Fred: Right. And I think that’s a good thing to have because people should have a
specific sort of template. Why don’t we do this? If we’re going to take that specific ad
formula, we’ll go through it point by point, I think it’s a good point at this time to just go
ahead and stop and have people go to tape number three here.

                            Online Copywriting
                      How to Earn Millions on the Internet
                       by Writing Irresistible Web Sites,
                          Emails and Online Ad Copy

                                         Tape 3

Section Five: Internet Ad Formula

Fred: Welcome back, folks. Fred Gleeck here with Terry Dean and we’re on tape
number 3, side number one here, talking about the Internet ad formula. That’s where
we’re going to pick up. We just started a little introduction there on the last tape.

So, Terry, what we’re going to do here (and this is going to be a fairly long section) we’re
going to take people through the anatomy of a sales letter, starting at the very top and
working all the way down to the bottom. Is that correct?

Terry: That’s exactly what we’re going to do. And you can take basically any of the ads
that we’ve used as exhibits or they’re in the swipe file that we provided to you, and
you’re going to see this format used over and over and over again. Once you have
something that’s proven to work, don’t mess with it…

Fred: Just use it as a template?

Terry: Just use it as a template.

Fred: So the first thing obviously is the headline which we’ve talked about a lot. Just to
touch on that, we’ve talked about how to create the headlines, but you want to go a little
bit more into whether or not, and I mentioned the words pre- head, headline, and post
head, do you want to talk about that? Do you need each one of those elements and can
we explain what they are to everybody?

Terry: We’ll talk about those, and to give you examples, we’ll actually look at some of
the exhibits so you can see them in action. We’ll do that a lot throughout this section so
you can look at things in action.

The pre-head is often what you’re going to do almost as an introductory headline to
grab the person you want. For example, if you look at exhibit number 4, which is the
paperless newsletter, the pre- head is “Attention Easing Editors, Authors and Information

Fred: So, we are right there, telling people who we want to be reading this.

Terry: Exactly, because if you’re not one of those, you’re not going to buy this product
anyway and you might as well not waste time. But if are one of those, we’re talking to
you. We’re letting you know that we’re talking to you. Exhibit number one was the first
ad. The pre- head said, “Here’s the opportunity 50 of my students have been desperately
waiting for.”

Fred: Right. So, 50 students, we know it’s something to do with some kind of coaching
or teaching.

Terry: Yes. And the other thing I’m doing here, I’m also bringing in that there’s only
going to be 50 of them. I’m trying to bring in a little bit of notice that it’s only going to
be a limited number of people.

Fred: A limited quantity, right.

Terry: Now, the exhibit that we used for exhibit number 3, which my pre- head is actually
a lot longer than that one: “A Small Town Indiana Farm Boy Humiliates Internet Gurus
by Training Thousands of Average Joes How to Start One Super Charged Internet
Business After Another.” That one is quite a bit longer but when it’s being used it
basically is another set up, bringing in my credibility and the fact that it’s going to be like
a story. And then the main headline is the big benefit of you can quickly and easily set
up automated Internet businesses.

So, in other words, it’s a set up for where we’re going with it, which is the benefit. So,
that’s what you should actually consider the pre- head. The pre-headline is a setup; it’s a
setup for what your main headline is going to be. You’re putting them in the right
position, the right frame of mind for when they read your main headline. And then the
main headline is going to be your big benefit: what is the big benefit? What is the
grabber that we’ve already talked about is your main headline.

Fred: And maybe if you combine the big benefit with your USP, as well, in the headline.

Terry: Yeah, exactly, that’s what you’ll be doing in that. Now, we also have what we’ll
say is the headline after the headline.

Fred: The post head?

Terry: The post head. And there are different samples of that in the notes. We’ll bring
up another exhibit that’s exhibit number 5. And this one uses a very large one. That’s
the reason I want you to take a look at this one.

Fred: This is a large post head is what you’re saying.

Terry: A large post head on this one. And this is from The headline of this web site is, “Why Almost
Everyone is Dead Wrong about Internet Marketing, Including How to Create Instant
Flow, Cash in Hand, Traffic to your Site Which you can Have Up and Collecting Orders
in Under Two Hours From Scratch.” That’s the headline.

The post head says, “It’s amazingly simple when you know the secrets. How to design a
compelling site – no special skills needed. How to keep new hungry customers arriving
every hour of every day even while you relax on vacation, and how to quickly generate as
much as $100,000 a month so easily and simply it’s almost unbelievable.” Again, I have
to give credit to John Carlton, who came up with a good portion of that one.

Fred: He tweaked that for you.

Terry: He tweaked that one for us, too. And part of that post head, what I’m doing is
I’m clarifying the headline more. And that’s what you’re going to do on the post head is
you’re going to give more clarification to your main headline. Everything is based on the
main headline; you have the intro, get them ready for it, and sometimes you’ll explain it
more afterwards.

Fred: Absolutely. People should use this formula. People sometimes feel a little bit
uncomfortable sort of copying a templated formula. Don’t. Go ahead and use exactly
what we’re saying to use in terms of the order in which this goes: pre-head, grabbing
who it is we want to get to read that site; then headline , which is your biggest benefit
combined possibly with your USP; and the post head, which is a further explanation of
the benefits that will accrue to you as a result of reading this copy.

Before we move on, you say here we want to do an emotional grabber, but let’s talk a
little bit about that, do you put “Dear Friend,” do you put “Dear Internet marketer?”
What’s the salutation or the greeting that you use?

Terry: Well, for salutations, I’ve been testing them recently and we don’t really find a lot
of difference between what we’re using for the salutation. And I have some that are just
“By Terry Dean” at the very beginning, which the purpose of that is to make it look more
like an article. When I do that type of method, it looks more like free information.

Fred: Interesting. So not making it look as much like a letter by saying “Dear Friend” or
Dear whatever, you’re putting “By Terry Dean” to make it look article like.

Terry: To look a little more article like. You’re going to see that on several of the
exhibits that’s exactly what I’ve been using. And part of that reason is it’s not actually a
letter, it’s a web site. And that’s one of the differences that I’ve seen. You know if I
were to send out a sales letter, I would always have a salutation.

Fred: I’ve seen people put Terry, November 3rd, 3:02 am, as they get started writing their
copy. Any value in that?

Terry: Sometimes what that is it gives you more specific value for being very specific.
This was written at 3:02 am. And usually whenever that’s done, it’s going to lead into a
beginning paragraph which is going to be about how they were thinking about something
in the middle of the night and it needs to go in with the story for it to actually have a lot
of value. And that’s another thing. When you’re going to copy somebody, know why
it’s being done.

Fred: Perfect point. So, after we get passed the salutation here, we then get into the
emotional grabber.

Terry: The whole purpose for a heading, the only purpose is to get people to read the
beginning of the sales copy, to read the next sentence. And guess what? Your
introduction is going to be to get them attached to the story and get them to keep reading,
run through it.

My favorite way to grab people’s emotions at the beginning is by using a story. That’s
my favorite; to use a story that has benefits in it. Remember, all these times whenever I
talk about a story, it has to be a story that talks about somebody who was unsuccessful at
something and became successful at it. It has to have benefits throughout it.

And I love the emotional grabber which, if you look at the examples which we have
again in the exhibits, and that is…let’s look at one specific web. For example, on the
kidnapping of the top marketing guru, exhibit number 2, I start off with the, “Wouldn’t
you love to sit down with a top marketing guru and force them to tell you all the secrets
about making money online?” I’m beginning the story, but what I’m trying to do is lead
into the benefits.

The next line says “secrets such as” and then there’s a list of bullets and benefits. And
I’m reading the list of benefits quickly. I’ll take exhibit number 3, which you can skip
over to, about the small town boy humiliating the gurus. It starts off, “It’s simple once
you know the system.” And then “Imagine this. You get up at 10 o’clock in the
morning” and it goes into an actual story of what their life would be like, ending with the
story of me and this is my reality.

Fred: Okay, people who are looking for a template then, you have given them really two
things to do there at the beginning of this particular sales copy. One of them is to tell a
story, imagine this, 10 a.m., and the other one was boom, boom, boom and giving them
all these benefits. Which one do you think is better? Why would one work versus the
other? When do you use one and not the other one?

Terry: A lot of it would depend on just how many of the benefits you can throw in a
story. Remember, the primary purpose of any sales copy is to show people the benefits
it’s going to bring to them, how much you can help them. If I can do that as a story
easier, then I’ll go with the story.

If it’s going to be a little bit easier writing for the other one…I was showing “Wouldn’t
you like to …” that was the being kidnapped one, telling them about my secret, so it was
much easier to reveal a few of the secrets right up front because it’s not an actual
kidnapping going on that can be told as a kidnapping. That was just the internal lead in
telling you what it’s like.

Fred: Okay, I’ll buy that. Now, after that, the next thing that we want to move to is to
build credibility and proof. Are there specific things that we can do and in a certain

Terry: I wouldn’t put it in a specific order because sometimes I do them a little bit
differently, depending on which one we have more on to build credibility. What you’ll
notice in the system, we talked a lot about the fact that online sales letters are quite
similar to offline sales letters. Here is one of the differences.

The credibility comes earlier in their online sales letters than it does in most offline sales
letters. A lot of times, another sales copy trend that you might have heard will have the
credibility later on; we have to bring it in earlier because there’s so much garbage going
on the Internet that it needs to be earlier.

Fred: Let’s talk about some of the specifics then of credibility and proof. Number one,
you have to be specific or give specifics.

Terry: You have to get specific. For example, when I did the ads about the truck driver,
I didn’t want to put that he makes over $100,000 a year. That’s very generality. I wanted
his exact amount that’s on his forms to the penny that we could put on because that’s

Think about when you’re reading something, when you see a general term such as hey,
he makes over a thousand dollars a day, it sounds like you’re just making something up.
When you use very specific terms, then it’s much more believable. That’s where
someone would put in, such as a copy of a check that they had if they were doing
something like that.

Fred: A lot of people in the weight loss business do that, too; a specific number of
pounds that they lost.

Terry: Specific number of pounds and the weight loss, that’s one place where you’d want
pictures. We talked about not having graphics, but we should add in that if you have to
have pictures, weight loss is one of the ones that have to have pictures. If the ad is saying,
“I lost 50 pounds,” there should be a before and after photo.

Fred: “I lost 53 pounds.” You wouldn’t lose 50 pounds. Too even, right?

Terry: Well, it depends on what the actual story is. You can’ t make up specifics if it’s

Fred: Right, exactly.

Terry: And there have been times where the general amount, like I made a certain
amount of money, ends up being something almost unbelievable. So we actually went
lower; we went to a lower number to be more specific. We cut off an hour that the ad
was running. It was a specific number.

Fred: Yeah, because if it was exactly $50,000, it sounds less credible than $49,843.

Terry: That would be where she could apply the weight loss. If they lost 50 pounds, you
could put 49, “I lost 49 pounds.”

Fred: And then, again, when you’re putting specifics in there and the specifics having to
do with numbers any specific number? You know, they always used to say 7 was the
best ending number.

Terry: Well, not when you’re dealing with specifics because here you’re dealing with the
actual fact. You’re dealing with facts. You’re not making up these numbers. But 7 has
to do more with pricing. It doesn’t have to do with the specifics.

Fred: Okay, sounds good. That makes sense. What about testimonials? That’s our next
one, I think.

Terry: Yes, testimonials are another thing that you’re going to work on the credibility,
working on all the testimonials you have received for a product. And for this, a lot of
times when I first tell somebody they need testimonials, they’ll say we don’t have any
testimonials yet. Well, you need to get some.

If you don’t have any customers yet to get it from, send out some free copies of a product
for people to try out and get some customers who will try out the version. For someone
who’s got a weight loss product, they can try it out on some people first. And, for
example, what would work there well is you could have a personal trainer who would
train these people, get the results, and turn that into an actual system that they’ve built.
You can use their testimonials for whatever.

Fred: Perfect. That’s a great example.

Terry: And what I’ve found best for testimonials is that you want them to be…now, this
is kind of interesting for ad copy, but the shorter they are usually it’s better than having a
long two paragraph versus one because you want to get to the point.

For weight loss, a better one would be, “I lost 57 pounds in nine weeks using his system
after nothing else worked” would be a quick one. That would be better than something
that took up a whole full page of how they felt and everything else because it would
move away from the story.

Fred: Have you tested Terry, the idea of having a hand-written testimonial and putting it
into some kind of a form where they can flip through it versus having the actual sort of
typed out on the computer kind of a thing?

Terry: I have not done that, but what I have done with a client before is we’ve had audio
tape testimonials, turned them into a real audio file on the web that people could actually
listen to people say it in their own voice.

Fred: Did that increase response?

Terry: That did increase response. That worked really well in order to increase response,
even though we don’t like to use a lot of fancy things on a web site, that’s one thing that
was worth it.

Fred: Good point. Now, the other thing that I’ve always heard with regard to
testimonials is its great if the person will allow you to put their name, their address, their
city, their state and their phone number. Have you done that in terms of the detailedness
of explaining who this testimonial was from?

Terry: Well, for most of the people that I’ve worked with and on my own, it’s very
difficult to ever have anybody let you put their phone number on a web site. We almost
never have that.

Fred: But if you did?

Terry: But if you did, it would increase the response. We always like to have their
address; not their actual specific street address, but their actual city address is what we
always want. And here’s an aspect that I want to add in right here is if you are doing a
testimonial, a big mistake that people have testimonials is they’ll have the kind of
testimonials that say “John was great.” “This was a great prize,” and they’re real general.
Those kinds of testimonials are nowhere near as powerful as specific results. “I made
$35,000 in two weeks,” or “I lost 14 pounds in three weeks.” Those kinds do much

Fred: At my seminars and events, when we have people filling out evaluations, I actually
coach them in that area and say, folks, if you want to write something nice or even if you
don’t, make sure and give me very specific information here and then I give them a place
to sign to release it.

Terry: Several times I’ve done this for someone. Someone will email me saying how
wonderful are the results they have, and I’ll rewrite what they said and email it back to
them and say can you give me your signature and provide me permission to use it this
way? It’s what they said; it’s just worded better.

Fred: What about the other thing which is that a lot of people suggest that you
have…you get well-known people and well-known people will give you testimonials in
exchange for you putting their web site address up there. What do you think about that?

Terry: If we’re starting off with it, I like to know…I’ll sometimes send them to other
people to try them out, but I never said to them, “Hey, I want a testimonial for this.”

Fred: I understand. So, if someone that’s a well-known entity gives you a great
testimonial that wants you to put their link or their web address in there as part of their
compensation if you will for giving the testimonial…

Terry: I have never made an agreement to put someone there, although you’ll see that a
lot of mine actually do. Since I deal with a lot of Internet marketing, I actually do have a
lot of people’s web site addresses, but I’ve never made an agreement.

Fred: Now, I’ve got a question for you. Do those web sites addresses have your
affiliate link tied into it?

Terry: No, they do not.

Fred: Great. Although I’ve heard people thinking about doing that and for some reason
that strikes me as a bit unsavory.

Terry: I would think the same. The only reason I put them on for mine is because I want
people to see samp les of my customers; for specifics. If I was not selling products
dealing with a specific web site, I wouldn’t have their web site addresses listed under the
testimonial because what all those are there for is more credibility. And you’ll see that a
lot. A lot of times people will say we only want to give it if somebody sends in a

When I said I will write a testimonial that someone actually told me, it’s because they
came to me saying, “Hey, I loved your product, this was wonderful. I got this result.” I
email them back, worded usually a little bit shorter, more concise than what they said.

Fred: Here’s my question. What about the amount of testimonials you put on there? I
mean literally some of us are lucky enough to have as I do stacks and stacks of
testimonials. How many could you or should you put on there?

Terry: Well, if you have a lot, something which you might want to employ is to put 10 to
15 of the most result-based ones, the best result…

Fred: You click here to see more?

Terry: Click here to see more, such as like Marlon Sanders has over a hundred pages on
his “Click here and see more of testimonials,” which is an awesome thing. It’s another
awesome credibility builder. And whenever you have a “Click here,” here’s a little tip

that you want to make to your web designer; always make sure the “Click here” means a
pop-up for another web page.

Don’t have them click here and leave your web sales letter. And if you understand web
site design, you can do this yourself or just tell your web site designer to make sure
another page comes up. I want them to stay on my sales letter.

Fred: Because you don’t’ want to do anything to distract them from actually buying the
product that you intend to sell on the site.

Terry: You never want to force anybody to leave your sales letter.

Fred: Good. What about when we talked about the concept of within this building
credibility and through the concept of background.

Terry: Your background actually improves the credibility. Say you worked for someone
who is really well known; you’d want to use something like that. If you’re selling them
medical products, something that had to do with losing weight, something like that, and
you have a Ph.D. in medicine, then I definitely would be having that on your site.

Fred: Here’s my example. In the seminar business, one of the things I did is for four
years I was the top person that worked with Career Track, which is a public seminar
company. I was at the top in both sales and evaluations. That would make sense to put
on a seminar site.

Terry: Exactly, you want to put it on there. Whatever your background has to do with
that improves the credibility of your offer and that you know something about your offer
improves it.

Fred: What are tests?

Terry: Well, with that one, we’ll pull off a couple of other things with that too. And I
would include checks under that, like if you had checks that you actually received
showing results. Tests would be such as…I’ll take this example again. They had five
people show up for a case study that they tested on these people. This is what results
they had. That would be one. There would be a lot of others we could do, too. For me, a
lot of my testimonials when I’ve dealt with web sites have been their web sites had this
much before, and this is what it is now.

Fred: Before and after.

Terry: Yes, again it becomes a before and after.

Fred: In my case, what I’m doing is promoting a seminar or event; I’m directly
competing against another person doing a similar kind of event. I’m saying Guaranteed,

theirs has none, ours, triple your money back, their’s none, boom boom, so it’s a
comparative survey. Those kind of things are powerful.

Terry: Comparative surveys I would probably move a little bit later in the letter because
here we’re trying to let them know that we know what we’re talking about, we achieve
these results regularly and that we’re real.

Fred: So that wouldn’t serve that function, therefore you would put it later on in the

Terry: You would put it later. And again on the same one, pictures would go in that for
people who lost weight or whatever else. Another thing that they would want to include
is if you had reviews; a major magazine has reviewed you and talked about your product,
you’d want to put that there.

If a major marketer in an area actually looks at your product and reviewed it, I’d put it
there in the review. I would not ever go to a major marketer and say give me a
testimonial, but I would go to someone and say, “Hey, could you review my product and
tell me what you think about my product.” And if it’s good, you end up using it for a
review. If it’s bad, you end up changing your product. (Laughs)

Fred: Good point and what about contact information? Contact information for you?

Terry: For you. You want to tell them where you’re at, what yo ur address is. Don’t use
a PO Box because you won’t be believable. Put your real phone number there that they
can call you up. And you can go further than that; you can actually say… if you actually
live in an area that there is local areas of interest saying we’re three blocks down from the
area court house, and you can put that in as well, telling them about your contact
information. Here I am.

All of this right here is showing that you are real, that you’re someone that they can
contact who is not going to run off with their money.

Fred: And have you ever had people physically show up on your doorstep?

Terry: I’ve never had that happen. But part of that is because I live so far (Laughs).

Fred: In the country. As far as I’m concerned, I treat my customers well. I wouldn’t
mind having them show up. I don’t care. It’s not going to happen that often, but the fact
is some people are nervous to put that information down. How do you respond to that?

Terry: I’ve never seen anything bad come from people putting their…

Fred: If they do a good job with their customers.

Terry: Now, if you are super famous and your name is Britney Spears, you’re not going
to want to put your home address on there because people will show up and stalk you.
But none of us are sex symbols that people are going to be stalking, so we’re not going to
have that problem.

Fred: We might be sex symbols, but nobody is going to stalk you. Let’s take a look at
the next one here. I think we’ve built credibility and proof with those items; the
specifics, testimonials, background, tests, checks, pictures, reviews, quotes, contact
information, all of those. Is there anything else we’ve left out for building credibility and

Terry: Both of us use contacts on the quote. Sometimes people will use quotes about a
subject, especially like we have a product that is again the sales company format, our
paid membership site products, where there are quotes from CNN about how membership
sites are becoming the most popular. There is a quote in there from The Wall Street
Journal about how membership sites are making so much money online.

Fred: So, it’s about your topic and area, not about your specific product; about the field.

Terry: It’s about the field by really famous people. It’s always told exactly…this is a
testimonial about the subject. It’s always when we’re talking about the subject and that
would be considered a quote, not a testimonial. So, that’s another point you can work in
if there is specific things about the topic that work into your sales presentations.

Fred: That makes sense. Let’s move to the next section of the sales letter, which would
be the benefits.

Terry: With the benefits, the most common practice I have is we’ll have a whole list of
bullets because what we want to do is show them all the benefits they’re going to get out
of our product and we’re going to do it in quick, bite-sized pieces. Here’s this benefit,
we’re going to do this, you’re going to get this benefit, and you’re going to get this

And that’s a good point for us to talk a little bit more about - the features in benefits.
Again a lot of what I’m teaching here is because I’ve reviewed so many people’s web
sites, so I know where they’re going to make their mistakes. A lot of people see all the
bullets and say okay, I’ve looked at the bullets here, and they’ll just put their features.
We have a 450 horse power engine. We’ll go back to the car example we used earlier.
And that would be all that they’d put there. Well, that doesn’t tell us the benefit of it.

With the benefit of it, there’s going to be an emotional feeling that we’re going to get,
and the speed we’re going to get going 0 to 60, how we’re going to feel as we go 0 to 60.
And that’s the benefit that has to be worked in each bulletin.

My most common practice for the benefits is I’ll usually actually have the feature written,
such as…well, let’s actually bring up one to show it, and then I’ll but the benefit right
after the feature.

Let’s go to exhibit number 3, where we’re talking about the benefits in the course; the
“How to accept online orders even if you have horrible credit.” That is actually a
feature. The benefit is in which online order systems uses the quickest and easiest billing
system, making sure it’s working fast and you get paid every time. That’s the benefit.

You’ll see that most of the time I also work in a practical feature, exactly what it is, and
then the benefit, wha t you’re going to get out of it is the emotional feeling. So I’m
working both in at the same time throughout the bullet point.

Most of my sales letters, when you look through them, you’ll see that there are 20, 30, or
40 bullet points. And for an information product, what I do is I’ll go through the product
and actually read each page in the information product. Okay, here’s the benefit on this
page. And I’ll go to the next one and do the same thing throughout the whole package.

Fred: So, when you say benefit overload, wha t you’re doing is you’re just coming up
with every single possible benefit and feature you can come up with, right?

Terry: I’m coming up with every one and usually what I’ll have when I get done going
through the whole product and come up with all these ideas, I’ll have examine it, read
every page and listen to every minute coming up with as many benefits as possible.

The best words on there that are going to hit them the best will be up front. Sometimes if
I see that I’ve covered the same thing too many times, I’ll mark that one out and not use it
five times there, so I’ll mark some of them out. Some of them aren’t quite as exciting for
that customer. But almost in every case I’ll try to get one about each concept or different
idea, a different hot button I’m trying to hit. What I’ll remove are the ones that hit the
same hot button again and again. I don’t want to hit it ten times.

Fred: Is there any kind of minimum or maximum number of benefits you should put in
the copy?

Terry: There’s no way there is a minimum or a maximum. You want to tell them
everything possible that they might buy it for. I’ve had a lot of customers come to me
and told me that they bought it just for one bullet point they saw on the product. I hit the
hot button one time for them.

Fred: So, what you’re saying is we as writers for this kind of copy should exhaust as
many possible benefits as we can because chances are one of them is going to hit the
right person.

Terry: Exactly.

Fred: And with that point, it’s a good time to turn the tape over to side 2 now, please.

Back on the flip side here of tape number 3. We’re on the second side of tape 3 and we
just finished up talking about the benefits that you want to write to put in your sales copy.
Now, let’s go to the product itself and give details about the product.

Terry: This is where you actually deal with more of the specifications. If you're dealing
with a technical product, you would be telling all the specifications of the computer,
things like that. For many of my products that are information products, I’ll tell them
how it’s delivered. I’ll tell you this product is a six tape set, I’ll tell how long the tapes
are, and I’ll say it’s a 320-page manual.

I get into the actual specifics of exactly what they're getting. So, here’s where you
actually deal with more of the features themselves; here’s what the product is, the hard
copy. And this section usually isn’t that long because you don’t take that long to describe
it. But you do describe it in detail and again with the specifics; how many pages it is,
how long the tapes are, and things of that nature.

Fred: So then when somebody gets it, the whole idea here is they can picture what it is
going to be that they’re actually going to physically receive, and when the receive it they
won’t be surprised or disappointed.

Terry: Exactly. And if you were sending out a huge package, you might say it’s going to
come in…

Fred: Three big boxes.

Terry: Three big boxes that weigh 50 pounds each.

Fred: Right, exactly.

Terry: That’s the kind of statement you’d make. Wherever you can use specifics, you’re
going to use them here. And as I said, if you were selling a computer, you’d have every
specification of the computer there; about what it is and how you’re going to ship it and
how long it’s going to take you to ship it. Things like that. It’s all going to be right there.

Fred: And that’s important about the shipping, Terry, too, because when people get hot
and excited to buy a product, they want to know how long it’s going to take to get there.

Okay, so when we're done with that product description, we then want to go in and talk
about bonuses.


Terry: With almost every offer, there’s actually been no ad that I’ve ever written that we
didn’t have bonuses that we’ve added in. And if someone doesn’t have any bonuses right
now, any extra things that they give, what I always have them do is make an audio tape or
make a short report to take in and put in as a bonus so there’s always something extra that
gets added into the product as an extra bonus.

Fred: Let’s talk a little bit about bonuses.

Terry: What you’re going to find is that with the bonuses, a lot of people end up buying
products because of the bonuses. A mistake I think a lot of people make is they’ll have a
product that’s not selling and they’ll decide, hey, I’m going to use this as a bonus. Well,
if it’s not selling and you can’t sell it, nobody wants it and it shouldn’t be a bonus either.

The bonuses should be items that the people want even more than the product. Some
sample ones that I’ve had for a lot of my information products that I’ve used are Quick
Start reports. Actually, I use that one for any kind of item you can think of. A Quick
Start report with an information product might be how to get started in 30 days or less
with this information. With something else that’s a physical product, it’ll be how to get it
up and running in the next five minutes.

Fred: Now, what kinds of bonuses have you found work best? For example, you can
have different things, like physical products, an e-product, and any kind of digital
product. We could also have percentages off future seminar attendance. How does that

Terry: There are actually a lot of things that we can do. Yo u can brainstorm. You can
find all kinds of different bonus items, and I actually call it bonus overload because I
usually like to have a lot of bonuses. I almost without fail always have something that’s
like a Quick Start type of report to get people started quickly because that’s what’s
important to them.

You know, discounts off of future products is always a great one because of back end
selling that brings in for you, making more sales. Another one that I like to include is
some type of little personal service type of certificate, such as…

Fred: Critique coupons.

Terry: An advertising critique; I’ll critique your ad, or a 15- minute phone consultation or
a 30-minute phone consultation free. The benefit of that is you’ll usually find that even if
you had a lot of people wanting to pay you a thousand dollars an hour to consult with
you, most of them never use the certificate that they got with the bonus, so you’re not
going to actually be overwhelmed as much as you thought.

Fred: And even if you are, you’ll be getting plenty of information because those are your

Terry: And you’ll be getting back end sales that they’ll buy after they talk to you.

Fred: In my experience, over the last 18 years in which I’ve given people a half an hour
of time minimum for buying products of mine, I’ve had on average 2 to 3 percent of the
people take me up on the offer.

Terry: But it’s a big bonus and it actually has a lot of value to it because how much is
half an hour of your time worth?

Fred: Yeah. Have you tried also, Terry, putting in terms of the numerical value that
you’ve assigned to the bonuses up on the top of it, so $3,493 worth of bonuses?

Terry: I almost always do that. I’ll have the actual value of each bonus and usually I’ll
do a little bit later on in the ad copy, we’ll do a value build up of actually everything
they’re getting for this price.

Fred: What do you mean by that?

Terry: A value build up means, okay, we have a $500 phone consultation that you’ll get.
You’ll get this Quick Start report which took me however long it took which is worth
$150 because of how long it took, you have this audio tape where I interviewed an expert,
he charges $300 an hour, so it’s worth it on this basis. And so that’s where I’ll have a lot
of the value.

And there’s also the value for each product, how much it actually costs to get something
similar to it, and we’ll build up all of that later on in the ad copy when we start talking
about the price. And that’s a big mistake a lot of people make because they don’t have
any bonuses. But if you don’t have any, you can get some quick information products,
and information products can be added to anything as a bonus.

Fred: Now, is this the place where a lot of times if you have products yourself that you
licensed that you might use?

Terry: I’ve licensed products. I’ve done everything that we’ve talked about.

Fred: Do those make good bonuses if they’re good products?

Terry: They’ll make good bonuses, as well. Something that I’ve done which wo uld
apply especially for information producers online is I like to sell physical products
because people like getting something that they can actually touch and use like audio tape

Then I like to deliver the bonus digitally if possible because the n it gives me the other
aspect which people like which is instant gratification, and it drops my cost because it’s
not going to cost me anything to deliver those bonuses.

Fred: To print them and to mail them.

Terry: Yep. So it makes the whole shipping process easier, it gives them instant
gratification which gives a little bit more ordering because people get something now.
So, that’s something that you can work in if you’re an information seller is work the
combination of both.

Fred: Sounds good to me. So, you’re overloaded with bonuses, and this concept of you
wanting to sell dollars for dimes. What do you mean by that?

Terry: Well, actually Ted Nicholas created that statement, ‘dollars for dimes,’ many
moons ago. And what it is - is you want to show them the actual value of the product,
and we’re not talking about how much it cost. Like a tape set actually costs $10 to make
the whole tape set. That’s not what we’re talking about there. We’re talking about how
much it would cost them to spend that time with you, how much it would cost them to get
those big bonuses from you.

What you’ll end up having is you’ll have a lot of value build up there because if you like
the tapes that we did with the interview before…I charge $1,000 an hour. If someone
wants to spend six hours and ask me all the questions, it’s going to cost them $6,000. If
you called me up on the phone and asked me for that, that’s what I’m going to charge you
and I have charged people for that.

So, the tapes are basically worth $6,000 because even with that, I even add an extra one
actually because all the interviews Fred has done, he calls me up and he asks questions
better than you do.

Fred: Right. So, my efficiency is even greater than $1,000 an hour, and therefore I can
get more out of Terry in the same amount of time.
Terry: He’s going to get more information on here than you would have ever gotten. So,
it’s worth more than that, but we’re going to conservatively say it’s worth the $6,000.
And then you tell them how much you’re charging for it.

Fred: And so it’s important to compare apples to oranges here in the price.

Terry: That’s exactly right. For example, if someone was selling a set of materials on a
seminar that was from a seminar that was produced, usually the seminar costs a whole lot
more than a tape set would cost. And so they’ll always compare how much the seminar
would cost, including the air fare and hotel, because that’s how much you would have
paid to be there for it.

So, in all this, you’re always comparing apples to oranges, something that’s a little bit
different, but you try to make them as they are in actual value comparison of the product.
But the concept here is you want them to actually see and know how much the value is. If
you don’t tell them, they’ll never know. And they’ll never suspect it. I found that true. I

wasn’t doing this at first in selling my product, and people weren’t respecting the value of
the information they were getting. They weren’t using it.

Fred: Right. As soon as you include the value and show them how much it was actually
worth, then the usage actually went up, as well.

Terry: The usage went up, so they got more value. So, in other words, when you do this,
you’re giving more value to your customer.

Fred: And not only that but I think the people listening on tape should understand that
by delivering more to your customers on the front end, all it does is serve to make it
much more highly likely that they’ll buy more stuff from you on the back end.

Terry: That’s always the case. And the situation that goes with it is you want them to
use it. That’s a big mistake that that has on any type of product, and this goes for
information products, it goes for any type of product. A good number of customers
won’t use what they bought.

Fred: Well, there have been some very well known and famous marketers whose names
we won’t mention here who have suggested that the product doesn’t matter. Just produce
any kind of product regardless of the quality. I think you and I would both disagree with
that vehemently because unless you produce a quality product – it doesn’t have to be a
fancy looking product, but a quality product – you won’t get back end sales.

Terry: You won’t get back end sales, at least not a good number of back end sales.
They’ll get some, but the big issue of that for me isn’t really the money, it’s to sleep good
at night.

Fred: Not only that, but returns. In other words, I don’t want to disappoint people, I
don’t want to see returns coming back, etcetera. Good. Let’s move on.

Powerful, Money Back Guarantees

Terry: You always want to offer a money back guarantee when you advertise anything
on the Internet.

Fred: And what I do, everything I sell has a lifetime money back guarantee. Maybe I’m
crazy. Is that nuts?

Terry: Well, first of all, one reason I don’t use a lifetime guarantee is that I don’t expect
to do this for my entire life, so it wouldn’t actually apply to me.

Fred: Interesting.

Terry: So I would use that, but the most I guarantee is a year. I give a one-year
guarantee because I know I’m still going to be doing it in a year’s time. What I don’t
want is to be 65 and somebody sending it back.

Fred: Right. Hey, I need my money back. What else do you want to tell them about
money back guarantees?

Terry: A lot of people try to use the short ones, like 30 day money back guarantees.
But I always suggest to people to go with at least 90 days or higher because you actually
get less returns the longer the guarantee is. What happens when you give them a short
guarantee like 30 days is…

Fred: I mark it in the calendar.

Terry: …or even 10 days, so you got 10 days to return this. You know what happens?
They immediately get the product and feel like they have to hurry. I don’t have time to
listen to it. I’m going to send it back.

Fred: Absolutely.

Terry: I will tell you that in our returns, we can check it and look at the tapes, for
example, I would say that 80 percent of our returns are from those who probably never
even looked at anything or they might have looked through it, but they didn’t read it or
they didn’t listen to any tapes. All the tapes are still at the very beginning. Nothing looks
like it’s been moved anywhere.

Fred: Which is sad, you know. They didn’t even give it a shot. What about adding
scarcity to this all?

Adding Scarcity

Terry: Scarcity basically means you need to have some reason that they have a deadline
or some reason to act now. Something that I don’t want to see people using is where it
says, “If you don’t order by the 15th this offer is not going to be here any more” unless
it’s true. You want to always make sure that whatever your scarcity is that it’s true.

Fred: It’s funny because on that point one of the things that I do is in order to maintain
the integrity of my offers, when someone will try to order something that has certain
bonuses attached to it that they wouldn’t receive past a certain date.

What I would do is when an order came in after that date, they would say, “Well, do I
still get the bonuses?” and I say, “Well, frankly I couldn’t do that because I’d be
dishonest. But there are a couple of other bonuses I might be able to give you.” In other
words, I will never give out exactly what I said I would give out to those people who did
it first.

Terry: One of the reasons I get huge production in my newsletter is that whenever I offer
something new to my newsletter, it’s always going to be a lower price or something, an
extra bonus that’s not going to be there later.

Fred: You’ve told them that, too.

Terry: I’ve told them that and it’s over. When I said I did over a hundred thousand from
that sale, it said only 50 people. And we got just a couple above 50 before I actually
checked the notice, but the moment I noticed it was above 50 I took off the sales letter.

So, there are only 50 people who are going to get this offer, or to give a specific deadline.
I’ve used that one, too; seven days from now, the offer is over. And then you change the
offer. Or another one you could use is you don’t know how long you’re going to be able
to include this bonus.

Fred: Is there some type of thing that we can do online that would actually dynamically
change the number of units left to be bought? So, let’s say for example if I went to a web
site and it said we will only sell 50 of this and they show me a little window that says
“Only 8 more remaining” and then it clicks down. That would be sort of cool, wouldn’t

Terry: That could be done but it would require a database hookup with your order forms.

Fred: I was just thinking that would be a pretty sexy idea.

Terry: I’ve done it a couple of times manually where I ran in and checked the orders,
how many we got today, and I moved it down. I’ve done that manually, but you would
actually be dealing with quite a database system.

Fred: But if you could do that or even if you did it manually, it would probably help.

Terry: Yes, it would help.

Fred: And plus if somebody went and checked it yesterday and it said 14 left and today
there were 8, they’d know this is for real, this is really going to happen.

Terry: If you’re going to sell something that has any type of personal service, you can
always tell them we’re getting a lot of orders for this and at some point in time I’m going
to have to remove this without giving a specific deadline date.

What I mentioned at the very beginning is I don’t like to see people use it when they use
a specific date that randomly changes. And that happens a lot online, that if you don’t
order by…

Fred: Same thing that annoys me about infomercials when they say, “Call within the
next 15 minutes.” Well, they run that thing all the time, so it’s not really a valid offer.

What about the next one here, which is tell them why you’re making this inc redible offer
or deal.

Tell them Why You’re Making this Incredible Offer or Deal

Terry: You always have to tell people why you’re doing something. If you’re giving
them $6,000 worth of value for a hundred bucks, then why in the world are you doing it?

Fred: Yeah, what are you doing it for?

Terry: And the reason for me…we’ll go back to the one where I started the interview
again. The reason for me in that was it doesn’t take any of my time to send you these
tape sets. It was done once.

Fred: The other thing is you can be totally truthful about it too and you can say I’m in
the process of trying to buy a new RV and I need to raise $35,000. In other words, you
can give them your selfish reasons for dropping your drawers, if you will, to give them
this offer.

Terry: I did this at a conference where I did my…an example where I actually got up live
in front of a conference and made $33,000. In the email it says that I’m giving you this
offer because I’m standing here live in front of a group of people telling them that I can
get a whole bunch of sales.

So, I have to give you such an incredible offer that I’m not going to give you again
because I want to show these people just how much money we could make online
quickly, which was the exact reason that I was making this offer, and that’s what you end
up with - all this. Tell them why you’re doing it.

Fred: And the reason why we’re doing that is what? Why do we want to do that?

Terry: We want to show them that there is a specific reason. We’re not just making up
numbers off our head when we’re talking about the value. We’re telling them why we’re
doing this because what happens is people don’t believe anything you’ve written in your
ad. No matter how much they know you they don’t believe you.

They have been ripped off a bunch of times, they have been told all kinds of stories, and
they don’t believe that your product is really worth that much. So you’re making them an
irresistible offer and you know what people will say about an irresistible offer?

Fred: It can’t be true.

Terry: If it’s too good to be true…

Fred: It is.

Terry: So, you have to tell them why. If you sell a product for 20 bucks that should sell
for a hundred, tell them that it’s because you want to generate a thousand customers who
are going to be so excited and enthusiastic to buy your back end products that it doesn’t
matter that you lose ten bucks on every single customer who comes in.

Anticipate and Counter Objections

Fred: And we also want to, as our next item there, anticipate and counter objections.

Terry: This one you’ll do all throughout the letter. The reason I put it in this section was
if you’re dealing with price objections, such as the next expensive product you’re going
to sell, you’re going to anticipate those objections and tell them why it’s worth it or how
they can afford it. But you can include this earlier on in your letter for other objections
that come up, as well.

Part of the reason we did so much research in the beginning was we were trying to find
out why our customers wouldn’t buy, what would cause them not to buy? And that’s
what I want you to think here. I want you to actually sit down, make a list: ‘My customer
will not buy because of…’ and have a whole list of different reasons they will not buy.

Fred: And then you include the counter.

Terry: Then you need the counter answer for all of those. Say, for example, your price is
too expensive for most of your customers. Well, then you come up with payment and
you tell them how they’re going to be able to make the monthly payment to pay off the

Fred: Have you ever done that, Terry, in a tabular form where you have on one side,
“You may be thinking…it’s too much,” and then on the right hand side in the table put
“Well, that being true …” blah blah blah. In other words, have you done a table like that
or have you done it in paragraph form?

Terry: I’ve done that one time. Most of the time I do it in paragraph form and I’ll try to
work in objections all throughout the letter that I’ll write down. For example, if I had a
whole bunch of testimonials that were talking about how much money there was, I would
immediately start saying okay…the objection people would say is “That’s them, but what
about me?” There’s going to be an objection that comes up in their mind and so I’ll
answer that in a paragraph right after I deal with the testimonials.

Fred: You’ll say some of you are probably thinking blah blah blah and then give the
answer for it.

Terry: Give the answer and that goes throughout your entire letter, but even almost
always you’ll have something dealing with price in there about why it’s not worth it.
And what I’ll do with that, my answer to the price objection is always the value and what
they’ll receive if they actually follow the instructions or they actually use my product;
what value will they get out of it.

Fred: So you anticipate and counter objections not just in a specific section, but
throughout your sales letter.

Terry: Whenever you’re sitting here writing, the purpose of a sales letter is
salesmanship-in-print. Think about reading through the sales letter with somebody in
front of you going “yeah.” When will they be asking questions and having objections to
it that you need to answer, that’s part of the reason in big company’s top copywriters will
just go in and interview the top salesman in the company and that’s most of their sales

Fred: Right. They find out what works in their presentation.

Making Ordering Easy

What about making it easy to order? I assume that’s a big one because a lot of times I go
on a site and even in offline offers where you don’t know what to do.

Terry: You need to tell them exactly what to do, and online that means you need to
always have a secure online order. Tha t’s not a question.

Fred: There are no other options.

Terry: There is no debate. You can’t have them mail in a check. You can’t have them
even call a number. Ninety-eight percent of my sales are online orders. They don’t call
into anything. They don’t mail anything. The other 2 percent are call- ins or mail- ins.
But I offer all the options on the web page. So you always have secured ordering.

For people who want to send a check, say if you want to send a check, send it to this
address, make it out to… And what we were talking about, if you want to have a phone
number for them to call in, tell them to call this phone number, say that you want to buy
this specific product name and talk to Lucy or whoever is going to be answering the
phone when you call.

In other words, be very specific about exactly what you do if you want to have an online
order, click here to order this product now.

Fred: And also what about the fact that if somebody has a credit card, some people want
to pay by Paypal instead of using their own card. How does this work, Paypal versus
credit cards. Explain that.

Terry: What we’re doing with the credit cards … you’re going to have people who like
to pay from all different options. Paypal has actually become very, very large.

Fred: Why has Paypal become so popular as opposed to just…

Terry: Well, mainly because first they started for people to buy and sell from eBay, for
people who are using eBay and eBay of course is huge now with over 100,000 people
making a full-time living over there. So, they became very big from that. And it started
filtering into other people because you have an account with so much money there, you
can transfer money real easy, one to another and you can even buy people’s products.
So, Paypal is one option.

We don’t offer it on all of our sales sites, but there are many times I’ll say if you want to
order by Paypal then here’s another link to order by Paypal for another option. In other
words, I’m giving them all kinds of options. And if you’re doing a lot of options like
that, you might say in the sales letter, “Here are four ways to order: Number one – order
by credit card by clicking here. Number two – pay by Paypal by clicking here.” So, in
other words, you make it real easy but you don’t want it to ever be even the least bit
confusing for people to buy your product.

Fred: Right. Don’t make it hard for them to buy if they’re willing to do it.

Well, then the next thing here is you want them to feel the pain of not ordering or tell
them not to order.

The Pain In Not Ordering…

Terry: Okay, this one is a little controversial, but there are two different ways to do this,
and that is…I’ll tell them not to order first. One thing that I like doing in a lot of sales
letters is tell people who my product is not for. For mine, you’ll see that as you read
through my sales copy, sometimes it will be if you’re someone who just likes to sit there,
not do one hour worth of work or just complain about tapes that you’ll never listen to,
then don’t order this product because it’s not for you. This product requires somebody to
at least spend an hour doing the work it takes to set up the offer, or whatever else they
actually end up taking is what I’ll be putting in there.

And the idea here is you’re going to want to be telling them who it’s not for. This isn’t
for crybabies who are going to sit back and complain about things they’re not going to try
to do. If you’re someone who likes to order tapes and sets them up on a shelf and never
uses them, wondering why you’re not getting checks and complaining about it…

Fred: This isn’t for you.

Terry: …then this isn’t for you. So, what you’re trying to work in there is you’re
working on, hey, I don't want you if you’re going to be that kind of person; but, at the
same time people are going to be thinking, hmm, well, that’s not me. That means the
offer must be for me.

Fred: At my sites where I’m promoting a seminar, I always put who should not attend,
and I always put, “If you think you know it all, this event is not for you” because one of
the things I know is that most people don’t feel they know it all, but if they do feel they
know it all I don’t want them at the seminar because they’re going to become a pain in
the neck.

Terry: That’s exactly it. And that’s what you’re trying to do there. Or the other aspect
that I’ll do there sometimes is I’ll make them feel the pain of not ordering.

Fred: How do you do that?

Terry: With that one, you also bring in, “This is how your life will change if you buy my
products and use it, but if you don’t…”

Fred: You’ll still be sleeping in your car.

Terry: You’re still going to be sleeping; you’re still going to have all these problems, and
we’re still going to be living our successful life.

Closing with A PS

Fred: That’s good. Let’s see here. I guess our final item is the PS.

Terry: I almost always have a signature right at the end like one that I use a lot is ‘Yours
in success,’ or people will use ‘Sincerely’ at the end at their signature there, and then
you’ll go with the PS.

And the PS is actually the next most important place after your headline because a lot of
people read the headline and then they’ll skip all the way to the bottom to find out what
the offer was. And so in the PS, I’ll basically be telling my offer real quick. It’s like the
quick version of the offer and the benefits.

Fred: Like a mini sales letter.

Terry: It’s a one paragraph sales letter of what was in the rest of the sales letter. And
sometimes I’ll do a second PS, a PPS that will reiterate the offer and the value they’re
getting on the second one or the guarantee I’ll talk about in the second one also. You’re
getting this guarantee; you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Fred: Now, I guess a lot of people think about the PS if they’re not really sophisticated
about running copy as something that is just thrown in there haphazardly. In fact, other
than the headline, the PS is something you probably would want to spend the most
amount of time on, right?

Terry: With my models, I always do the headline first and it takes a long time to do it.
By the time I get to the PS I almost always have it in my mind because I’ve been working
on the offer so long so it doesn’t take a lot of time, but you’re reiterating everything that
you just wrote, so it’s like a secondary headline. And a lot of times, I’ll steal some of
those same key words in the way I am phrasing stuff from my main headline to put in the

Fred: Okay, anything else about PS that we should talk about here?

Terry: Not really.

Fred: Let’s go back and give a summary here because I think it’s important. This is a
really, really valuable session and specifics are on it, so let’s just cover it. We’re going to
start with the headline and we do usually a pre- head, a main headline and a post headline,
and we talked about why those were important.

We then want to come up with a story that’s some kind of emotionally grabbing story.
After we tell that story, we get people hooked in, get them listening, we then want to
build our credibility and proof through the use of very specific terms, numbers, etcetera.

We also want to have testimonials; as a minimum, to have their name, city and state
address. We want to give background on ourselves or anybody else that’s relevant as it
relates to this offer; a test that you’ve done, checks that you’ve actually made, physical
pictures of checks, pictures, reviews that other people have written about you say in The
wall Street Journal or CNN or whatever, quotes, those kinds of things. Contact
information; very important to let people know you’re a real person, that you have a real
physical address.

We then want to go into benefit overload with bullets, just as many as you can come up
with combining your features and your benefits. We want to detail exactly what they’re
getting for this offer, the product detail, exactly what’s specific that you have.

We then want to make sure after we do the details on the product that we completely
overload them with all kinds of bonuses and put a specific value next to those bonuses, so
that they have an idea of all the bonuses they’re going to get and what they’re going to be

They should make it that one, two, or three of the bonuses are things that people would
order separately even if they wouldn’t order the product and it may cause them to
actually go to the product by virtue of the bonuses.

Then we want to be sure and sell dollars for dimes, which is to make sure and show the
value by saying, “Hey, this product may cost $500, but if it makes you $100,000, really
it’s a tremendous value.” And that’s the kind of thing that you want to do.

Okay, we sell dollars for dimes, provide a powerful money back guarantee; we want to
add some scarcity, you want to tell them why you’re making this incredible offer, you
want to anticipate and counter objections, make it easy to order like we said, make them
feel the pain of not ordering, and do a PS. And so at this point, I think that’s right about
it. Go back and review this section because it’s got a lot of powerful information.

                            Online Copywriting
                       How to Earn Millions on the Internet
                        by Writing Irresistible Web Sites,
                           Emails and Online Ad Copy

                                          Tape 4

Section Six: Edit Your Piece of Coal into A Diamond

Fred: Hi folks, Fred Gleeck back here with Terry Dean. We’re talking about online
copywriting, and we are now on tape number 4, side 1, and we’re talking about now that
you’ve written your sales copy, how to turn it into a thing of beauty. Terry would say,
“Edit your piece of coal into a diamond.” How do we do that?

Terry: Here’s the principle that actually stops a lot of people from writing a sales letter
and it stops them from writing just about anything and that is the perfectionism. They
think that when you write it down, you have to write it perfect. You stop and you keep
trying to think of what you’re going to say next. I always try to avoid that completely. I
do all my research, do my headlines, work on that for a long time; but when I actually get
to writing, I want to write it all and I want to write it all in one sitting whenever possible.

And I don’t stop to think, I don’t stop to entertain something else, I just write whatever is
coming out as I’m going through it. Then I’ll go back later and actually edit it. And once
I started doing that system, I actually started to create sales letters a whole lot quicker.

Before that, I had too much of an attitude of a perfectionist. I always wanted everything
to be perfect. It would take me a month to write even half of a sales letter because I was
like maybe if I wrote it this way or maybe if I wrote it this way.

Fred: Just before we started this tape, folks, off tape we were talking about the idea of
books and book writing. I was saying to Terry that I had finished five books this year
and he said, “Wow, that’s a lot of books.” And I said, “Well, not really.” And if you
take a look at it, it does have to do with that same issue of perfectionism.

I’ve completely overcome that, and one of the ways that I do it is I put in the beginning of
every book a little disclaimer, a little line in six point type that says, “If you find any
mistakes in this book, they’re here for a purpose. Some people actually enjoy looking for
them, so we strive to please as many people as possible.”

And what that does is it makes it so that if you do have an occasional mistake, people will
forgive it. And every once in a while, I’ll have a web site up and people will call me to
let me know that there’s a typo on page 5. And if the response rates are great, I’m almost
tempted not to change it.

Terry: Along the same thing is the problem is if you’re a perfectionist, it slows you down
and you never launch. I have that with a lot of people. You never want to launch it, it’s
never quite ready. So, in my process, when I write a sales letter, I just write it and then
go back and edit it, go back and fix it because you’ll always think of something better
later to put in. And so I consider the editing process a major process; you have the
writing process and then you have the editing that you’ll do next.

Fred: It’s the old concept of ready, fire, aim. You’re not going to make any money
from not having a sales site or a web site up there. You’re going to make money by
having it up there, imperfect as it might be. And the thing about web sites that are great
is you can change the copy every 20 minutes if you want.

Terry: One thing I’ve always noticed is just about every time I’ve written a sales letter,
there’s a point where I’ll go back and edit it because of all the questions I receive on
certain things, and so they come up with objections I never thought of.

Fred: The other thing that I want to interject here that’s really important that I screwed
up on big time is that one time I was tweaking my web site and I had somebody else
tweaking it with me, and one of the versions that pulled the best rates of response we
never saved. And the server crashed, something happened where we lost it, and now the
best response rate of that particular site was gone forever. Make sure you don’t do that,
folks. Save all the versions.

Terry: That would be upsetting.

Fred: That would be very upsetting. Making sure that you have all the versions is
important. So, you’re going to edit your site to make it as good as possible, you’re going
to write it as quickly as you can to get it out there and get it down on paper or on the
computer or whatever, and then you want to go through and change it. And every
sentence that you go through, you’ve got to ask a critical question. What’s that?

Terry: The critical question you want to ask of everything there - is so what? And the
reason is your customers, they’re only thinking about one thing; they’re thinking about
their benefits and what’s in it for them? As they often say, people are tuned into what’s
in it for me?

Fred: W-I-I-F-M.

Terry: So, that’s what they’re thinking at all times. So, when you read the letter, you
should look at each line, every sentence and say, “so what? So what’s in it for me as a
customer? What do I get out of it? What’s the benefit of it?” And that’s one of the big
things you’ll notice that if you’re just getting started, it’s going to help turn your features
into benefits because you’ll keep saying to each of your features so what? So what if it
has 450 horsepower? So what?

Fred: Also, a lot of people tend to write in very flowery sentences. I know that you
recommend that you keep them short and very concise and tight.

Terry: Yes. My reason for that is you want it easy to read. You want to make it so it’s
an easy flow, and even when you’re writing to highly intelligent people remember,
they’re busy. That’s why a lot of people say when you do a lot of these rules. People say
it’s not right for my market. My market is different.

Fred: They’re smarter than that.

Terry: They’re a lot smarter than that. You know what they are? They’re very
distracted. Every market is very distracted, which means when you’ re distracted you
don’t understand things as easily.

Fred: No doubt. When you say to have short sentences, would you also tend to keep
your paragraphs pretty short, as well?

Terry: I keep my paragraphs very short. Pretty much in my sales letters, you’ll never
find a set of lines where it’s over five lines in one paragraph. If it goes over five lines, I
break it into another paragraph. Even if it shouldn’t be broken, it becomes another

Fred: So, maximum five lines per paragraph.

Terry: And a lot of times you’ll read through it and you’ll see that a lot of paragraphs are
just one sentence. In the end, it makes it very easy to read. You’ve got to remember,
people are looking at the computer screen; their eyes hurt. Somebody’s talking to them
in the background, there’s music going, the kids are asking what’s going on. You got to
make it very easy to understand for distracted people.

Fred: Now, when you say you also are a big believer in making your copy flow from one
thought to the other, exactly what do you mean by that? Can you describe that process?

Terry: This is something that you should probably go back and do in the editing. You’ll
notice we talked about all the different sections; we talked about how you’re going to
move from giving the product details to how you’re going to move to overloading the
bonuses and everything like that.

What you’re going to want it to do is flow logically from one section to another and lead
into the next section, constantly leading into the next section. If you look at all the
exhibits that I have in the manual, you’re going to see that a lot of times there is a sub-
heading at the start of the next section, but right before that there’s half a sentence that
ends with three dots because I’m leading you into the next sentence.

I never want you to stop and you never want a point where it’s easy for people to say
Hmm, okay, this is the finish of this thought. You never want anybody to say he finished

this point because that’s a good point to quit and come back later, which never happens.
Nobody ever comes back later.

Fred: Now, one of the things I know some of the people out there are doing and with the
programs that we all have – I know you’ve got your version of it. I have my version of it
which is Yours is same program, by the way; just two different private
labels as we call it.

But one of the things that people are doing who have that tool is they’re putting an order
click device at various points in the copy to see where people…for example, like after the
third page or whatever, the third sentence if you wanted to, you could put a different
order here, order here, order here. What do you think about that as a method of getting
people to order, because you can then track how far they read before they order?

Terry: I’ve done that sometimes, but primarily I don’t like to do it early. I like to start
maybe at about the middle or later, after you’ve already done the presentation because
you’ve got to remember, the concept still applies – you’re not selling a product, you’re
selling a concept.

Until you really give them the concept, it’s not time to actually start taking them over to
the order form because they don’t know what’s going on. So I do that on a very limited

Fred: Yeah, because if they click on let’s say the third paragraph on the site, they’re now
going to get an order sheet and it’s almost going to confuse them. They’re going to look
at the price and go, uh, that’s a lot of money when they haven’t really had all of the
benefits build for them.

Terry: And so that’s the reason I don’t use it very much; only to a limited basis, and
usually I’ll do several clicks near the end of the sales letter when they have all the

Fred: That makes sense. Now I know there’s something in copywriting that’s known as
a dual readership path or a double readership path. What do you mean by that and how
do you work that into your copy?

Dual Readership Path

Terry: The key principle is again we’re thinking people are distracted. They’re busy and
a good majority of your customers, even though you have written all this, aren’t going to
read every word you wrote.

Fred: They aren’t? Really?

Terry: So, you want to make it easy for somebody to scan it and still get the same
information. And we do that by having a lot of sub-heads throughout the ad copy, which
is basically many headlines all throughout the ad and by bolding certain points. And the
whole idea for using those is that if somebody just read your sub- head or just read the
bolded points, then they’re going to get the whole story. They’re just going to get it in a
quicker version.

So, you basically have two different ways. They can read the whole letter or they can
read a section. And I work really hard on the sub- heads to make them real strong. I want
them to be almost as strong as my headline because a lot of people will quit reading and
you’ve got to pull them back in with a sub-head and they’ll keep reading from that

Fred: Would it be right to assume then that if you took your copy and pulled out all of
the sub-heads and read them one after the other that you could know just from that what
the product was about that you are selling?

Terry: You should have a good overview of exactly what the product is by just reading
the sub-heads. And because of that reason, people need to be careful and make sure the
sub- heads aren’t becoming so simplistic that they don’t say anything. I think a lot of
people use sub- heads such as, “This is what it’s all about.” I won’t use a sub-head like
that. I want to have it where that’s actually telling me what it’s all about in the sub- head
just in one brief sentence.

Fred: So, the sub-head you’re looking at is almost a separate headline for the section that
it’s going to be covering.

Terry: And it does the same purpose with the sub- head to bring people back. The
headline’s purpose is to make people read the ad. The sub- head’s purpose is to make
them read that section.

Fred: Well, after that, why would we want to have people read our ad out loud to us?

Terry: Well, we’ve done all this editing. We’ve done all the editing we can figure out.
Now we’re going to hand it to someone else and have them read it.

Fred: You keep calling it an ad, by the way, and really it’s a web site. It’s an ad, it’s a
large ad.

Terry: It’s the same thing. When you actually talk about this, it’s a web site, but it’s an
ad. I have a purpose. I want somebody to buy something. And what happens is they’re
going to read it out loud and you’ll notice that there are places where they stumble, they
had trouble reading. Whenever there’s a place like that, you mark it and say, okay, we’ve
got to fix this. They had trouble reading right here.

Fred: Because it’s not flowing smoothly.

Terry: It’s not flowing. They stopped for some reason or they repeated it. If they’ll say
what’s that mean, that means you have to fix something else too because they don’t
understand what’s going on. Maybe you didn’t describe it well enough.

And the reason you have to do that is anybody who’s worked on a computer screen for
very long or worked on a new piece for very long will notice that you start missing a lot
of things because you’re so used to the piece. And even if they were to read it, they’re
going to miss some things. But the moment you have them read it out loud to you, you’re
going to notice all kinds of things that are wrong with the ad.

Fred: You can’t accomplish the same objective by reading it out loud to yourself then,
obviously. You need someone else to read it. You’ve got to sit there with your pen.

Terry: Well, the reason why you don’t want to accomplish it yourself is you know what
it’s supposed to say. You’re going to end up reading to yourself what it’s supposed to
say instead of what it really says.

Fred: So, after you’ve got your copy completely done, you want to print it out, have
somebody read it out loud, take notes and go back and clear up those areas in which there
seems to be some kind of rough edges where the person couldn’t understand it as clearly
as they should.

Terry: And while you’re doing the same thing, you’re looking for any places that are just
trouble reading. You always want to write all your ads at basically a sixth grade level, a
low level, because even though your customers might be intelligent, they’re still
distracted. So you have to keep it easy for them to read. So, if you have a sixth grader
around, that’s a good person to have to read the ad.

Adding Power Words and Eliminating Certain Overused Words

Fred: Yeah, that would be perfect. Now, while you’re writing this copy, you want to tell
people the difference between power words versus more passive words.

Terry: What you’re going to want to do in your ad and a lot of times it takes place during
the editing, and that is you want action going on. For example, a good place to mention it
was back on exhibit number 3 where I have, “Small town Indiana farm boy humiliates
Internet gurus.” Humiliates is a strong action that’s taking place.

I could say he shows up or he’s this or whatever else, but humiliates is a much stronger
(what I would call a) power word for it. Think about the words that bring emotion to
you. Bringing excitement is part of what we’re trying to fix because remember the ad is
emotional. It’s supposed to be very emotional as you go through it.

Fred: I agree then you want to make those words jump out and you want to make them
strong and you want to make them really effective and say something rather than just be
there. Are there any other tips that you give people with actually physically writing the

Terry: This is actually more on the editing. Look for words that you’ve overused that
you should edit it. For me personally, “that” is one of those that I found I could take out.
“Though” was another one that I did very badly with. And I had those everywhere when
I started writing, and the moment I see one I take it out.

“That” applies the same way because you’re going to find that most people – it wasn’t
just true of me but it was true of most people – they’ll put that’s where they’re not
needed. And you can look through your ad, and every time I look through my ad and see
a “that” I look at what the sentence would be like without it. Does it still make sense?

Fred: And in most cases, it can be eliminated.

Terry: In most cases it does and then you just take it out. And look for other words like
that. Look for ways to make all the writing simpler. Are there words that you can take
out? Will it still mean the same thing? Is it easier to read if you change to this format?
That’s the whole process for thinking about all this; even though we write a lot and we
want to tell the whole story, we still want to cut out anything that’s not necessary.

Fred: Now, even though we’re suggesting it, and the best person to do this, the writing
for copy, is themselves. There are probably going to be a number of people who listen to
this program who decide they want to use someone else to write their copy for them.
How should they make that decision if they decide to do that?

Terry: They should make the decision based strongly on looking at other ad copy they
have and actually find out results the companies have had from the ad copy because
here’s the mistake: almost without fail, whenever you look at an ad and say that is a
great ad, it’s not that great of an ad.

Really good ads don’t show them to be great. What they look at is it’s just easy to read,
they make sense, and it’s easy to buy from. There a lot of terms which get overused.
Like we talked about using power words like humiliate and things like that; you could
overuse them way too much in an ad also.

Fred: I agree. Now, is there a place that lists all the possible people that can copywrite
for you or how would you go about doing that?

Terry: There is not a source that I think of as great.

Fred: You would probably want to get a person referral on that one.

Terry: You’d want to find someone who has had really good results with a copywriter.
And remember, if you’re getting a good copywriter, you’re going to spend some money.

Fred: That’s a good suggestion. I know there are a lot of people out there listening,
some of whom are…there are a lot of folks that I deal with in the publishing industry, like
these book authors. They frequently ask me, they say, “Well, I’ve just got a book and
you put a site together. You know, you can’t do it the same way as anything else.” How
would you respond to those people?

Terry: You do it the exact same way. I use the exact same system basically no matter
what they’re selling. I’ve worked with so many different people on so many different

Fred: Do you think it would be a wise idea to give away a chapter of the book perhaps?

Terry: That would be something that you would want to consider to give away.

Fred: Or a test?

Terry: You’d want to test that as a possibility. You know, it’s not guaranteed. I’d still
focus on selling the book. The main web site page would be selling the book. I would
probably test using some type of freebie such as a free chapter or a pop- up. We’ll talk
about that a little later as a technical.

Something else that I want to mention is a lot of people who are listening to this are
probably beginning copywriters. What I’ve noticed for a lot of people in reviewing their
ads as a quick test is to go back to your ad and read through it and actually think about
deleting the first couple of paragraphs for the first page of your ad because you actually
start warming up and getting better as you go along.

Fred: It’s funny because there are a lot of writers who always suggest that; that you
want to have the story start with the action, not with the prelude. And so you want to get
right into it and a lot of times if you cut out X number of paragraphs in front, you’re
getting right to the meat of that.

Terry: And about 50 percent of the time when I review a web site, I’ll tell them your ad
really starts here. Everything else needs to be deleted above that because that’s where
you’re actually getting into the emotion; you’re actually getting into the story. Everything
else you’re just trying to introduce.

Fred: So, the suggestion for people listening is after you think you’re done and you’ve
completed all of your editing on your copy is to go ahead and see how much of the top
end of that you can just take out.

Terry: And will still make sense. Where does it stop making sense for you to take it out?
A lot of time it ends up being the first sub-head or after the first page is over or after

about three paragraphs that it starts getting good. You should never look at your sales
letter and say, “Look, here’s where it starts getting good.” The very first word should be
where it starts getting good. Everything else needs to be deleted.

Fred: It’s funny because I’ve got an exhibit here that I can point to, which is exhibit
number 6, which is my copy from And one of the things
that I did is I used your system for the pre-head and the post head, and I put at the top,
“Learn a system to help you make mountains of cash doing seminars,” for anybody who
is interested in doing seminars and making a bunch of money doing it.

Then I put, “How to quickly and easily generate a six figure income marketing and
promoting your own seminars and workshops.” Now, along that line what happened was
that when I first wrote this copy, I went through it quickly as you did and I wasn’t really
satisfied with it until I perfected the headline, making sure that I got it down just to the
essence of what I wanted to do. I mean you can’t say it more succinctly than, “How to
quickly and easily generate a six figure income marketing and promoting your own
seminars and workshops.” So that was the basic headline.

But what I did was, as a result of hearing and seeing some of your things, I tried to find a
way to get people to keep reading. My post head was, “A comprehensive three part, easy
to follow system guaranteed to work or your money back.” Now, if there’s three parts
and they’ve read that far, they want to know what these three are. Just tell me what the
three are.

And people I’m sure are thinking I may not even have to buy this product. I’m going to
find out what I need to know with just these three items. And so using that same
thinking, that’s how I came up with it, and the way I did that was from a constant
rewriting and writing quickly first and then editing down.

Terry: What I do a lot of times is I’ll end up starting the story and end up saying that
you’ll read more about this later. Or there’s one of my sales letters that says, “You’re not
reading this letter to hear more about me. You’re reading this letter to find out more
about the benefits that you’re going to receive from this.” And then I’d go back to the
story near the end, after they’ve read about all the benefits.

Fred: Right. So, it’s almost like a story line that stops in the middle and then it’s like a
commercial, so to speak, and then it comes back and tells you the end of the story.

Terry: Curiosity, which is what that’s working on, is a very strong way to work in your
ad, and I even try to work it into the actual headline. In many cases, as long as you’re
also including strong benefits, it’s a strong technique. “Who else wants to” is a place
where you could include that. When we use a headline like that, people start thinking,
who else? That means a lot of people are doing it. Who else wants to do this?

Fred: Or another curiosity headline might be, “Discover the Secrets that Only Four
People Online are Using to Generate Massive Amounts of Cash with Their Online

Copy,” that kind of thing. Is that what you’re saying? You want to know who those four
people are.

Terry: And that’s why I’ll use a lot of the stories, too, because I’ll start a story like that
and you’re like who is the story about? What happened at that point? And that’s what
you do. You start the story and then you break it a bit later.

Section Seven: Extra Tips, Tricks, and Techniques

Fred: Perfect. Well, good. I think it’s worth then moving to our next section in which
we’re going to talk here about some extra tips and some tricks and techniques that people
can use when they are writing their online copy.

First thing we want to do is tell them that they always want to tell the whole story every
time. Now, this is a great example for you because you’re pretty well known online and
you could always start your copy with the assumption that people know my background,
people know what I’ve done, they know my history. But you’re suggesting you don’t do

Terry: Never do that because you’re making an assumption. And one thing that you
want to do in any ad is remove all assumptions; that you assume that they know this or
you assume that they know about you or they assume that they know all these things
about computers. Never make an assumption of any type or nature .

And I’ve actually tested that. There was a time I said, well, everybody knows me.
Everybody who’s going to read this ad knows me. I don’t have to do my ad. And they
bombed. And that even happened when going out to my own free newsletter list to
people who should have known me. I told them many times before and the ad still
bombed without telling the whole story.

So, I actually go through and use the credibility section. A lot of people try to drop out
the credibility building section. And I have to use that every time. I’ll tell you my whole
story every time, I’ll show you testimonials every time there’s an ad, I’ll show you the
proof of what I do every time there’s an ad. You need to make sure that you tell them the
whole story and not cut it short just because you’re tired of it. That’s the big problem
most people have is they think…

Fred: I’m the writer of the ad. I’ve heard this so many times. Oh man, people are
getting sick of this by now. That’s what you’re feeling.

Terry: That’s how you’re feeling and you’re like, well, everybody’s tired of this. I
shouldn’t run this ad anymore. I don’t want to tell my story anymore!

Fred: Wrong buster.

Terry: And I did this. I said I don’t want to tell my story anymore. So you know what I
do? I go and see my old ads and just change my story and paste it over here because it
has to be told and I don’t want to write it anymore.

Fred: It’s just like the same thing and it gets old and redundant, and I can tell when
you’re up on stage and you’re talking to groups of people that when you go through that
sort of the introduction, you sort of sound like, oh gosh, you can’t copy and paste it on
stage so you just have to get through it. And it’s like, okay, here, let me tell you my story
almost in an embarrassed fashion, like I told this to so many of you before and I hate that
I have to put you through it again.

Terry: But if you don’t do it…

Fred: There are five people in the audience that may not have heard it.

Terry: And you’re going to lose sales the moment you stop telling your whole story, and
that goes for your web site. You might have five different sales letters on your web site,
and you need to tell your whole story in all of the letters because people are not going to
know it from the other ones. Don’t assume that they’ve read the other ones. Don’t
assume that they remember anything. They’re only interested in the one that’s going on

Fred: Let’s go on to our next one here, which is…I think this is a big mistake that a lot of
people make. When they’re writing copy, they think that they’ve got to speak to
everyone, so they’ve got to use a very all of you out there kind of perspective when
they’re writing. That’s precisely the wrong thing to do, right?

Terry: You always need to write every web site, every web sales letter, and every email
to one person. It’s just you and them and always when you’re writing it, think of it just
as a one-on-one conversation or a personal letter that you’re sending to a friend. And
that’s the best concept to take; okay, this is my friend.

In my mind I actually think about the perfect customer. Who is my perfect customer?
That’s my friend. I’m going to write a letter to them, just that one person, my letter is
going to that person, and then I’m going to share it with the rest of the world. And that
breaks up a lot of mistakes that people make because people always think that you want
to be impersonal.

And here’s a mistake that I should add in with it. A lot of people would like to sign an ad
as a company or as a company name or as being from us. The letter is never from us.
The letter is always from one person. It’s from me. It’s a personal letter from me. I sign
it with my name. Even if I had 60 people working for me, they’re all working for me.
It’s still me that’s talking to you.

Fred: And that folks is a great point to stop at the moment here and flip the tape over to
the other side at this point.

Folks, Fred Gleeck talking with Terry Dean here on the flip side, the B side, side 2 of
tape number 4. And, Terry, I know we talked about this before in fairly great depth, but
everybody has two reasons for buying.

Terry: They all have the real reason and the reason they tell everyone else.

Fred: And we talked about that as the emotional versus the logical. I think we pretty
well exhausted that.

Terry: We pretty well covered it, but it’s just such a big key that people really need to
remember that you have to focus the ad on basically what’s inside of a person; what are
they really thinking, what’s the real reason they buy something, the emotional reason.

Fred: And again, that ties in with another thought, which is emotions first and they
justify logically.

Terry: And you have to use both. You have to always use logic and you have to have
emotion in your ad, but the emotion always comes first. The person is excited about it,
excited about buying, and then you logically justify the reason why they’re buying and
you have to have both.

Fred: Now, one of the things that you suggest, and I’ve heard other people suggest this
as well, is in the process of writing this ad that you bring up a flaw in the product or
service that you’re providing. Why would you want to do that?

Terry: When you reveal a flaw in your product and you tell people something that’s
wrong with your product, it boosts your credibility through the roof because immediately
people are saying, look; he’s telling me that this is wrong with this product. And when I
say there’s a little flaw, we’re not saying that you’re going to tell people your product
isn’t any good or something like that because obviously it’s going to be a good product.
On information about it, we might say…

Fred: The recording this day was really bad because our microphone wasn’t working
that well.

Terry: Hopefully, that’s not the case, you know. A possibility is the package I’m going
to send you is kind of ugly because we just have it in a basic binder so we can keep our
own costs low.

Fred: What are some other examples?

Terry: If someone were to be buying a car, they could say, you know, this is the best car.
We’re selling it for $20,000 off but we only have it in one color right now or something
similar. It’s just one little flaw that’s in it. The tapes aren’t recorded at the same level as
you pick up the Rolling Stones tape. It’s not quite as good as that. And you just find

little things that are wrong because in every product there are some little things that are
wrong, little flaws in it.

Fred: Actually, I was just thinking that when we recorded one time a live event, we did
have some audio problems. So, what happened was I used that as a way to point out a
flaw in the product. Although there was no flaw in the content, it was a technical glitch,
but it justified a price reduction and that was a valid reason for reducing the price.

Terry: And that’s where you’re going to move in as a reason why, so you combine it
both. And that’s where I usually put the flaw in. I’ll put it in about the same place I’ll
answer and counter objections or in the reason why section. I’ll say, well, it’s got this,
it’s got this little flaw to it or there could be different flaws that you might have or add.

Consulting, for example, you only have so many people you can take. And you only take
them on these days that you can do consulting. Otherwise, you can’t do it. So, basically
you’re not going to make up any flaws. You’re just going to find something simple,
something that’s wrong. And for me, for my information products, more than anything
else, the flaw I reveal is that the packaging is not very pretty.

Fred: Exactly. And the next item I think we need to talk about and we touched on this
earlier in the area of testimonials; its short result based testimonials are the best ones. We
talked about how some people can get very flowery in the ir language and do all this rah-
rah for you but it’s not nearly as effective as what?

Terry: It’s not nearly as effective as you just have simple results, and probably the best
testimonials of all are when someone says where they’re at, the problems they had before,
and how your product solved their problem. And it’s just real simple, real short, one
paragraph is about the max that I like to see, one sentence or two sentences is even better.
And in most cases, you’re going to get really long ones and ones that will astound you, so
a lot of times you’re going to want to rewrite them and have the person…

Fred: Just sign off on them.

Terry: Sign off on the new version.

Fred: And do you physically have them send you a copy via Fax? Because a lot of
people are wondering, and this has come up recently with a few different people I know.
If the government ever asked to see those testimonials which I don’t know of anybody
who has actually been asked this, but conceivably somebody can say, okay, you’re
making a claim here. Where is the testimonial to back this up? Do we need to keep hard
copy for this kind of stuff?

Terry: What you actually need a physical signature that’s signed we’re not going to
cover because we don’t want to…

Fred: Into the legal stuff. But you probably should keep…

Terry: Yeah, because most likely the email signatures are considered valid. But you
should keep records. Print out everything in case your hard drive is…don’t ever expect
that your hard drive is not going to disappear at some point.

Fred: This is a good point. Not only physically print things out, but have a back up
copy off site that you keep around.
Let’s take a look at the next one here, the free trial offer. And basically I covered that a
little bit when I started asking about the idea of giving people one chapter of a book. But
talk to me about that? How does that work? Does it work? Is it effective? Should we
use it?

Terry: Well, let’s go to the making your offer and the payment option. And I’ve done a
lot of things in this area. Whenever you start going to higher ticket items, and that
depends on your market what’s considered a higher ticket item. If you’re selling to major
corporations, a higher ticket item may be a hundred grand. If you’re selling to people just
starting a business, it might be $200. The answer to that is if you give them payments,
like three payments of so much, you’re going to in most cases boost the response.

Another offer I found which I’ll do mainly for people who don’t know me yet is you pay
for shipping now, you pay for the rest of the product in 30 days. We’ll charge your card
for shipping today, and in 30 days we’ll be charging another $200 for the product. You
keep it.

In other words, I’m going to completely and totally trust you on this product. You look
at our offer; see if it’s everything I said. Otherwise, you’re not even going to pay. And
we’ve seen some incredible increases, such as three times as many orders by doing
something like that.

Fred: A 300 percent increase.

Terry: A 300 percent increase by doing that kind of offer. That’s why I said the two
important things to test are headlines and the actual offer and payment option.

Fred: That brings up a good question, at least in my mind, what kind of return rates do
you have?

Terry: The return rates that we’ve tested haven’t included that much. If we have a
product that’s getting about a 2 percent return rate, it’ll bump up to about 5 to 8 percent
in many cases. So, it goes up…

Fred: But their sales you wouldn’t have had anyway.

Terry: But there are a lot of sales you wouldn’t have had anyway. And our numbers
have always shown that almost always it ends up being that you should try if you have
the cash flow to do it if you can go without the money.

And the reason that it works for us is we do take some money; we take shipping up front.
We don’t just send out a free trial and not have their credit card. So, we have their credit
card on file. If they don’t send the product back, they’re going to get charged 30 days
from the day.

Fred: There are a lot of people asking, okay, from the technical standpoint, how do you
remind yourself to make that charge?

Terry: Well, a lot of the billing systems now can be recurring billing and they can bill at
a certain level; 30 days they can be set up to do the billing. If the product comes back,
you just go into the billing system and turn it off for them. They’re not going to get

Fred: But by recurring billing, doesn’t that mean they’re going to get billed again
another 30 days from now?

Terry: Most systems now are able to set how long their recurring billing will last. Say,
for example, you’re selling something with three payments. You could set it so they get
it the first three times and then it automatically stops. It’s all done in the technology. Or
you could just have one payment and it stops. The technology can do that. The the
system that both you and I have can do that…

Fred: Which are?

Terry: Which is now…

Fred: And

Terry: They have the capability to do that, to start at any amount for the charging. Now,
I’m not saying you should do this all the time, but that’s something that should be in your

Fred: It should be tested to see because if you can increase your response rate by doing
that, then by all means do it.

Terry: And even if your return rate came up 20 percent…

Fred: Its sales you wouldn’t have had.

Terry: It’s sales you wouldn’t have had, and I’ve got many of those customers who the
refund rates do go higher and they end up buying something else right afterwards. They
pay for it up front.

Fred: The devil’s advocate point of view on that would be, well Terry, you know, they
bought the product with those payment terms. They would have bought the product

Terry: Well, we’ve proven it not to be from the testing though because when you run
them side by side, you’re getting three times as many from one than from the other.

Fred: Therefore you need to know how to do that. I know we’re going to elaborate on
how to do that with side by side testing, but I think we mentioned it, didn’t we? How do
people do...?

Terry: There are some different technical explanations, but again the simple one is just a
click strip that I have on my site that you can go to. We mentioned that earlier.

Fred: Right. And split testing your ads is So,
now we’ve got that taken care of. That’s pretty good.

Now, you mentioned that we talked earlier a lot about empathy, getting into the minds
and how your customers feel. Anything else we can add on that?

Terry: If you’re someone who is just out to make a lot of money and you don’t care
about your customers, you’re probably never going to be able to do that because a lot of
empathy deals with having compassion; having compassion for somebody in their
situation and how you can fix their problems. For some reason your actual compassion
shows through on the ad copy and you’ll have people contact you when it’s true.

Fred: I would agree. It’s transparent when somebody really is trying to help versus
somebody who is just trying to make money. You can smell it in the ad copy.

Terry: And I don’t know exactly how that happens, but I have many, many people email
me saying that they’ve read through the ad and they just knew that I was different from
everyone else just from reading through the ad.

And that’s because you write thinking about them, how you can help them, what their
needs are. And it all comes back in the empathy. And that’s not something we can really
produce for you. If you don’t care about your customers, you’re not going to have them.

Fred: And it’s going to show through in your copy. Okay. Well, let’s take a look then at
this issue, which a lot of us who are Internet marketers and market information products
understand that you need to have at least two if not more levels of product pricing. Many
people have what we call the basic and deluxe package. Could you elaborate on that?

Terry: What ends up happening is that you convince the m on the buy that they’re going
to buy now. And a lot of times you can have the deluxe version, which is a little bit of an
upgrade, an extra couple of bonuses, a couple of extra things that they’d really like to
have that wasn’t in the main offer and that’s a little bit higher priced.

We have a $500 product that I have a deluxe version at $700. If you’d like to buy it, just
for a little bit extra you get all these extra things. And whenever you do that, you make
sure that they only need the basic to be successful. That’s all they really need. But in the
deluxe, you’ve got something they really, really want; some extra report that they’d really
like to have and that’s what’s going to bump them up to the next level.

Fred: Good deal. So, now what you do from the technical side, when they go to order,
they’ll go to a screen that says to them, “Hey, by the way, you can certainly use the basic
package, but for an extra $200, you’ll receive these additional bonuses and blah blah

Terry: There are a couple of ways of doing it. I’ve done it in different formats and you
can look at all these examples, you’ll see these formats used. In some of my sales letters,
I’ll have the basic version and the deluxe version both talked about in the main sales
letter. And I say click here if you want to order this one and click here for this one at the
bottom. And that’s a good method if you need to say a lot about the deluxe version.

If you don’t need to say a lot, like you only need a paragraph or two, a lot of times I’ll go
over to the order form and I’ll offer, if you would like this product also. I’ll squeeze in a
bunch of little benefits, just a couple of bullet benefits in a lot of cases, that doesn’t take a
lot of space, and that’s what I’ll say there.

Or it will say something like…let’s say it’s a different offer. You don’t have anything
extra you can put in this offer. I’ll have another related offer that I’ve sold, saying you
can buy this tape set we sell over at so and so web site for $97. If you buy it with this
one, it’s only $47 extra.

Fred: Good example. We’ve been talking about these ideas of pop-ups. Would pop- ups
work and how do you use them?

Terry: Almost everyone who has been online will have seen pop-ups appear on their
screen. They go to a web site and some other page jumps out in front of them, or in some
places you go to ten different pages that jump up in front of you. And to be honest,
nobody likes them. There’s no one that’s going to say, hey, I love pop-ups. They’re
wonderful. But when we tested, we found that pop-ups can be used on almost any web
site and create some sales.

There are several ways to do pop-ups. There is what the y call a pop-up on entry, which is
somebody enters your web page, another page appears immediately. And then there’s
another form of pop- up that’s often used which is called the pop- up on exit, which is
somebody goes to your web site, they click away from your web site; and when they
click away from your web site, another little screen appears. That’s the one I like to use
for my web sites.

The primary reason is if you have a pop-up that appears right when somebody gets there
it’s going to sometimes hurt your sales because they’re going to get distracted from
something else. And remember, on most of my sites, I’m trying to make a sale. That’s
what I want. I want somebody to buy a hundred dollar product or whatever the price of
the product is. That’s my primary goal. And the pop-up usually is used to give
somebody something free in exchange for their email address.

Fred: It’s a down sell.

Terry: First, I don’t want to distract anybody from ordering my product. I’d prefer them
to buy something.

Fred: Wouldn’t that be the terminology? Your down sell for the hundred dollar product
is the email address.

Terry: The person’s not ready to give you money right now. Okay, are you willing to
give me your email address right now is the secondary one? And so I’ll use the pop- up
on exit, and you can easily set the pop-up on exit to only appear when somebody leaves
your web site completely. For example, there’s a little code and you can pick up the
actual code for an exit pop- up at my web site at

Fred: e- x-i-t-c-o-d-e.html.

Terry: And you can see the code there. And there’s a little tiny code that you put in all
your links, and when you put those in your links, whenever someone clicks from that
link, the pop- up is not going to appear. It only appears when they leave without ordering.

In other words, I’ll put that in my order; where I say click here to order, I’ll put that little
link there. So, the pop- up won’t appear if somebody goes to my order form. It’ll appear
if they leave my web site without the order form because again, I don’t want to distract
anybody from going to my order form. That’s for sure.

Fred: That’s good. I think those are all good points.

Now, the other thing you say here as a final extra tip, trick, and technique that you should
make your sales letter look like it’s a free report.

Terry: In many cases, you do want it to start looking like a free report. One thing that I
have a lot of web sites do is if they have an Ebook cover or a picture of their product, to
take it off the top. I don’t like it on the top. We want to move it down lower, because
you want to start by meeting people where they’re at. And people visit web sites more
than anything else for information.

Very rarely does someone go to a web site saying I’m ready to buy something right this
minute. I’m looking for something to buy and I’m going to buy it now. That’s a rare
occasion. So I like to move the product further down. For example, people that show an

ebook cover graphic on their web site. I never like it on top. I like it down lower. I like
to get people into the store because remember we’re not selling a product, we’re selling a

So, work on the concept first. And that’s the reason I’ll often start the letter with a, “By
Terry Dean” also instead of starting it with a little letter to, “Dear Internet marketing
friend” or whatever you’re talking about there, because again we’re moving the free

And along the same lines, I avoid often having 100 percent guaranteed and guaranteed in
most of my headlines. If you’ve got a headline that has guaranteed in it, test it with and
without the statement “100 percent guarantee” in the headline. Most of the tests without
the guarantee in the headline worked better. And the reasons we find for that is the
moment they see guarantee they know you’re selling.

Fred: Now, when we talk about testing and testing these results, are there benchmarks
that we know how well we’re doing based on our percentage rates return, our visitor
values, or those kinds of things?

Terry: That’s really hard to say because it depends on the market, how much you’re
spending to get the readers to your web site. I’m happy whenever I’m breaking even on
generating visitors. If I can generate a thousand visitors to my web site and make enough
to break even on those visitors, I’m happy; the reason being is I’ll have other products to
sell them later on. But that doesn’t mean you quit.

We actually should never quit our testing and coming up with new ways to make
something better. One goal that I almost always have is that I try to get people to where
their web sites are earning at least a dollar a visitor bare minimum. No matter what the
product price is, I want them to get a dollar a visitor as a bare minimum or we’re doing
something seriously wrong.

Fred: Yeah, and that’s probably true. The only problem would be if it’s costing you $5 a

Terry: Well, that’s the part that you need to change if that’s the bare minimum.

Fred: Exactly. So, in other words, what we want to do is we want to at least make our
value per visitor equal to our cost per visitor as a minimum.

Terry: That’s a minimum because most people who will listen to these are smaller
businesses. Big companies can go with going negative where they don’t even make the
money back from two or three sales to a customer. So, they’re willing to go quite a bit
negative. Most small businesses, such as yours and my case, we don’t like going

Fred: No, we don’t. It hurts cash flow, too.

Terry: I don’t mind breaking even though, on my membership site, most of the time I
break even the first month because I know I’m going to make some money the next
month. I’m quite willing to do that all the time.

Fred: Tell me a little bit about what kinds of organizations will allow themselves to lose
money on the front end of things? Is it insurance companies, people like that, people
with larger ticket products in the future?

Terry: Well, if we actually had the cash flow, a lot of businesses could be willing to lose
money on the front end because when you really deal with it, if you have a back end in

Fred: Your lifetime value with customers.

Terry: Your lifetime value of a customer, which we haven’t mentioned what a lifetime
value of a customer…

Fred: We need to talk about it now.

Terry: We should mention it. That is, how much is your average customer worth to you?
And the simple way to do that is…

Fred: Over the lifetime association.

Terry: The lifetime associations, how long will they stay in business with you? Did they
buy from you for two years or three years? How much do they spend?

Fred: I know that from my market. My average customer in most of my markets is
worth $446.

Terry: Which basically means that we could look at your business and if you have a $50
product, you could be willing to spend a hundred dollars for every $50 sale because you
know you’re getting another $300 coming.

Fred: In some point in the future from them.

Terry: Yes, if you had the cash flow to do that. And that’s what happens with a lot of
businesses. You and I are a little unusual in the fact that we like where our business is,
we’re probably what you’d consider large small businesses, and we don’t have to deal
with hiring a hundred people or getting tons of people to do this stuff.

Fred: And people should know that both you and I are very strong believers in making
plenty of money that we can make without having to hire employees.

Terry: And that’s our goal. There are some other people listening to this who might have
a goal of getting as big as fast as possible, and if you want to get big fast you’re going to
go negative with customers because it’s going to cost you to bring your customers in.

Fred: As long as you have the cash flow to support that. And the other thing is that your
products better be good enough to support whatever the return rates are as well as be
powerful enough to produce future sales with other products.

Terry: Well, I wouldn’t recommend anybody ever consider going negative unless they
already know what the lifetime value of a customer is so they could look at the numbers
and say okay, we make this much, we’re willing to spend this much. We know we make
this much.

Fred: Good. I think that’s pretty much done on that section. Now, let’s move to writing
powerful emails and autoresponder messages. Let’s go ahead and get started on that
before we move to our next tape.

Section Eight: How to Write Powerful Email and Autoresponder

Terry: Up to now, we’ve basically been talking about writing sales letters and ads for a
web site primarily on your web site, what you’re posting. Everything we talked about
applies to there. When we start writing email, almost everything we’ve said still applies
to the email. We want to keep things short. We want to write short sentences. We want
to make short paragraphs. We want to have strong headlines and we want to keep it

But some things do change. For example, you are not going to start most emails with a
huge headline at the top. An email is more personal. It’s a more personal medium. It’s
more me writing to you. When someone visits a web site, they know that that’s posted
there for all to see. It’s not just for them. When you do an email, it could be an email
I’m sending out just to you or it could just be sent out to the top ten people. It’s just a
simple personal email.

So, for a headline, in most cases my first sentence is where I consider the headline to be
on the ad. I’ll have ‘Dear so and so,’ and I always want to have their name there; ‘Dear
John’, whatever their name is. And then the first sentence will actually be the headline in
my ad to keep them reading.

The other principle that you see in the email is in the subject line. That’s actually another
place where the headline is because people see the subjects first and decide whether
they’re going to open it or not.

Fred: Now, in your case, since they know and love you, and in my case as well in my
smaller niche markets, I always put my name in the subject line to let them know that it’s
…do you put your name in the subject?

Terry: Well, For example, my newsletter is called Web Gold. It’s my newsletter.

Fred: Right. So people know that that’s yours.

Terry: I’ll have my subject line that says, “John, Web Gold is here” when I send out my
newsletter because that’s what they’re used to, and that’s what they receive all the time.
And they know me and that’s what we’ve built over time.

Here’s a suggestion we can add in. Whenever you send out emails, the front address
should be a person’s name, preferably your name so you could be building your name. It
should not be a company name. It should be coming from you the individual because
people look at the front addresses at the same time they’re looking at the subject line.
Who’s it from?

And I always make sure my emails will say, “From Terry Dean,” and the subject line
will say, “John, Web Gold is here,” but now that’s one way to do the subject line when
they know who you are. The second way to do a subject line when they don’t know who
you are or you’re making some kind of offer is to make it not as revealing, let’s say, to
use a little bit more curiosity.

Fred: Like what?

Terry: Again, I always want to use the name. “John, just wanted you to take a look at
this,” or something simple.

Fred: How difficult is it to get people to open all those emails given all the spam that’s
out there?

Terry: The big key is having their name in it, their name in the subject. Any time that
you have any list, make sure that whoever you’re using can collect names along with
email addresses so you can put their personal name, their first name in the email. In
almost all cases, I just use their first name in the emails that I send out.

Fred: That’s a good place to stop now. Let’s have everybody move to tape number 5 at
this point.

                            Online Copywriting
                      How to Earn Millions on the Internet
                       by Writing Irresistible Web Sites,
                          Emails and Online Ad Copy

                                          Tape 5

Section Eight: How to Write Powerful Email and Autoresponder
Messages (continued)

Fred: Okay, folks, Fred Gleeck here with Terry Dean. Tape number 5, side number 1,
and this is our final tape in the series, a five cassette series on online sales copywriting.
And Terry was in the middle of talking about writing emails for autoresponder messages
and things like that.

You said that you’ve got to personalize the email. Sometimes if you haven’t talked, if
they don’t know who you are, you’ve got to make it a little bit mysterious to try and get
to them but still keep your name on it. What else?

Terry: I have some autoresponders on the same series which is, “John, just checking in,”
for a secondary message that comes later. Or on another autoresponder series, I might
have a series of free tips. I might say, “Part three of the series you requested,” and I’ll
keep going and we’ll say the next one is part four, obviously, so you want to keep them
going with whatever you got their attention from.

You might have a simple one that says, “John, about the Ebook you asked for,” or
“About the information you asked for,” something simple; but again I’ll always use their
name in it and I’ll always start the email with their name, “Hello so and so.” or “Dear so
and so.”

Fred: Now, I’ve seen that one of the things that people sometimes try and do in their
email messages or autoresponder messages is try to sell from the email itself. That’s not
a good idea.

Terry: It could be done in some cases, and the cases where it can be done is when you’ve
already sold something to a customer. It’s a back end sale, they already know you. And
the only case that I’ve used it and had it more effective than sending them to a web site is
when I’m doing something that’s very limited. I only want to sell 30 of these. Or say
that you want to sell 50 of these or the deadline is tomorrow. You want to get it to them
right now, right then, and usually that’s going to a customer.

And in almost every case, I use my email to drive them to a web site and keep driving
them back to a web site. So, the email will have a strong headline, which will be written
just like a headline, but it’s written in sentence format so it has a period at the end of it, or
it could have a question mark at the end of it if I do ask a question. One thing that I have
found is very effective on emails is asking a question.

Fred: Now, this is in the body copy?

Terry: The body copy. Their name, then the actual first sentence is a question, asking
them a question.

Fred: Do you capitalize it?

Terry: I’ll capitalize the first word, but not the rest of it. It looks just like a letter…

Fred: So, you would never capitalize the whole thing because then it would not look like
a personal letter.

Terry: Yes, I don’t capitalize the whole thing. And in this point in time, we're actually
talking about plain text emails, which we should refer in…

Fred: As opposed to?

Terry: Html email. In almost all cases, I like plain text better.

Fred: Why is that?

Terry: Because of the more personal feel. Your friends do not email you html messages.

Fred: Right, that’s correct.

Terry: When I actually run ads in Ezines, which we’ll talk a little bit about that later, I’ll
use html because sometimes that’s more successful because they know it’s an ad anyway.
It’s not coming from a person. But for my own list, I like to use plain text. And so the
first sentence will be a question.

And you’ll find that some people even email you back answering the question instead of
going any further, but that just shows that they at least started reading. But I like to start
with the question in most cases because that’s the most powerful start I ever had in emails
is when I asked a question.

Fred: And also emails and autoresponder messages actually are lower key selling.

Terry: It’s more personal. Think about it being person to person, emailing a friend. And
I would write the email in a little bit lower key. Whereas a lot of people think the web
site shouldn’t be a hard sell, I’ve found that they’re right about emails. Emails really

shouldn’t be that hard of a sell. I’m not really going to push you hard into buying when I
send a personal email.

I’m going to write to you about the product that was created, about the benefits of the
product; and even more in the email than I even do in the web copy, I’ll tell you about a
flaw or two because I’m always doing the email as a review. Think of the email as how a
reviewer would write in a magazine about your product. How would they write about it
when they review it for the newspaper? That’s more of what I want to do in the email.

And then what I’ll do is I’ll have a web site link. I’ll do it more than once in my email.
I’m going to have it three or four times. For full information, click here. A paragraph
later or two paragraphs later, I’ll have it again. I’ll have it near the bottom, I’ll put it near
the top, and I’ll give them multiple opportunities to go to the web site.

Fred: And in doing so, what you're doing then is sending them to another place in which
you’ve done exactly the same thing here with your copy. Going to go to a web site, it’s
got just what we’ve described in this tape program.

Terry: Yes, and that’s what we’re continuing to talk about. The reason is emails are a
little bit harder to sell because you can’t use all the extra features. It’s hard to pull out
sub- heads. It’s hard to make it easy to read. You can’t bold things in email very well.

Fred: I actually had an exchange back and forth with somebody yesterday from a major
company, and he was sending me some kind of an email message that went on forever.
Do you have any rules in terms of maximum length?

Terry: You want to keep your emails short for one thing. I would say a very small
portion of what you’d have for a sales letter to have in the email because again, the
purpose there is to drive them…

Fred: Do you have a number of words that you would stick with?

Terry: Not a number of words, but when I send out an individual offer, a lot of times it
would be about two pages printed. That’s normal. I almost never, even when I am doing
a lot of free information and giving you a whole article, giving you free info, they end up
going about five pages if they were actually printed out.

And I should mention this since I just brought that up is a lot of times in the email is I’ll
have my emails be a little bit more free report oriented. They’ll give a little bit more
information. Whereas I have a web site to be completely a sales letter and just selling to
them, to keep them reading the emails you need to give them some type of content. So, I
might have a free report series that gives them some content and keeps driving them back
to the web site.

Fred: So, then what I told this guy you might not agree with, and I may be wrong on
this, is that I personally don’t want to read long emails. I want them packed with good

information, but I want them short. And I said to the guy I prefer to see the thing under
250 words. Five pages would be a whole lot more than 250 words.

Terry: For most articles, when I tell people to write three articles, we try to shoot those
out at 500 words; about 500 words is what we’ll send out for a free article that we send
out to Ezines.

Fred: Would that be sort of the maximum length of an autoresponder message or an

Terry: No, the autoresponder message is really a little bit longer than that. That’s about
the amount that I give for free information, and then I also have ads that I put in this.
You could almost say my autoresponder is about twice that because they're having a big
mixture of both content and ad copy. Because when someone publishes an Ezine, there
are two big mistakes people make.

Fred: In my example here from yesterday, this particular individual was sending me…I
must have been on somebody's list or…I’m just thinking it wasn’t something I had signed
up for.

Terry: Well, that changes everything anyway. We’re talking about emailing, our whole
discussion here on emailing is people who have given you the…

Fred: Permission based only.

Terry: They’ve asked for something specific from you. They’ve asked for a free report,
they’ve asked for a free Ebook, they’ve asked you to send those emails.

Fred: Right. Which is a good time to discuss just briefly that we don’t want to have
anything to do with spam because not only, number one, can you get shut down by your
ISP, your Internet service provider, but number two, it’s not generally effective. There
are certain people who are making money doing spam but it’s nothing we as information
marketers want to be involved in.

Terry: We should put in there that there’s nobody making money in spam that doesn’t
spend $50,000 to get a server that stays up. So, there’s a difference there. No one goes
in and does that kind of thing cheaply. We don’t recommend anybody to do it at all.

Fred: Just for the explanation for people listening, people can get away with spam
because they own their own server. Is that it?

Terry: In some cases they can, as long as everything else they’re doing is completely
legal in what they’re doing. A lot of times you’ll see spam goes quite a bit across the
board. We wouldn’t suggest it for any company because what it does do, no matter what
your business is, is it hurts your relationship with potential customers.

Fred: No doubt.

Terry: That’s a guarantee that it’s going to happen. And anybody doing it, even if
they’re making money today, it’s only a limited amount of time before they destroy their

When I mentioned about Ezine, I have an Ezine that I publish every two weeks. The way
that the model works is you come to my web site, we try to sell you something. You
don’t choose to buy until you see we’ll give you this free report, this free Ebook if you
give me your email address and you’ll receive it every two weeks a newsletter from me.

We always have the little note there that says we will not share your name, we will not
share your email address, and we will not sell it or share it with any other company. That
always needs to be there.

Fred: Now, by sharing it, you don’t mean that you couldn’t present offers from other
vendors under your name.

Terry: No, I mean I couldn’t let anybody else mail it out. All emails come from me
personally that they receive. They’ll never receive an email from someone else.

Fred: But it could be an email that you send that has an offer for someone else’s product.

Terry: Yes, but it would always be something that I recommend.

Fred: And that you would endorse. Got it.

Terry: And it’s coming from me. But what I have is when people sign up for it; every
two weeks I send them an email that has good content in it. Since my specific niche is
Internet marketing for people, that’s what the content is about. It’s about Internet
marketing, it’s about ad writing online, it’s about driving traffic to web sites, and I’ll have
some good information.

 A lot of times it’ll be say 500 words for the information and every time I’ll also tell them
to go to my web site for certain offers that we have there at the time; a special offer we
have for this week. And what I try to do is I try to have a mixture of about 50/50, 50
percent of selling and 50 percent of free information. Here’s your free tip, here’s the
offer for the week, that kind of thing. A mistake I’ve seen done both ways wrong is that
somebody will have just selling in an email…

Fred: Or just content.

Terry: Or just content and the mistake for either one is if you do just the selling, people
aren’t going to read your emails very long. It’s not going to be long for them to stop
reading. If you just give content, I’ve seen for those few things, those people never buy

anything. They come in and say, hey, I’m going to send an offer now. All the time,
people unsubscribe and they don’t end up getting a high response rate.

Fred: So, what you’re saying is you need a balance between the two in every email you

Terry: In every email you send, you should have a little balance of both of those. And
the reason is the content is there to get people to read it. The sales message is there to
sell them something. And, again, it drives them to a web site.

Fred: Now, I’ve always thought that maybe you should go three or four content
messages before you hit them up with one sales message. You're saying that every email
should be a combination of content and sales.

Terry: Every time. And sometimes I might start one off; I might have 90 percent content
and 10 percent sales. But the times I’ve tested, we’ve never had good success with all
content and no sales at all. They’re not buying later. It’s almost you’re training them
wrong at the beginning.

Fred: Interesting, folks, interesting. That’s a very important point, something that I
learned today, I do it the other way which is I’ve always gone with content messages on a
3:1 ratio of sales messages. So, I’m going to change that and see what happens. I’ll test

Terry: That’s not bad. What we’re saying is you don’t want them to go where there’s no
content or there’s no sales. You need to always have both. The exact mixture might
change a little bit from site to site.

Although I use 50/50, you might find a little higher ones that might wo rk for you. But
never go to where there’s nothing. That’s telling them there’s nothing that’s driving them
to a web site because you want them to be in the habit of going to your web site.

Fred: Yes, you want to train them. You want to train your customers. Good point.
Well, is that all we need to talk about with regard to emails and autoresponder messages?
Actually, another thing we have to say is the system that Terry and I both have has the
ability to create autoresponder messages for you. What is it again yours is called?


Fred: And mine is Both of those have the ability
to create these autoresponder messages. And the beauty of our systems, if I can just
promote it a second, is to say that they’re integrated into one whole package. You’ve got
all of your things that you use on the Internet, all the various major important functions
are the y’re under one roof and that makes it a whole lot easier than getting them from
different vendors.

Terry: Here’s an extra bullet that goes along with the system that works with email, and
that is when someone buys a product, you can set up a series of autoresponders to start.
And you should, no matter what system you’re using, whenever somebody buys
something, you should start another email series just for those people. You bought our
product. And I do the same thing with those.

Usually the first message I’ll have is a thank you message, but it will have an up sell in it,
too. It still has the same balance. You know, since you bought this product, we have this
extra product that we’re going to give you…

Fred: So, maybe as a rule of thumb, you might say on your first autoresponder message
from someone, it might be 90 percent content, 10 percent sales; then a second one is 80
percent content, 20 percent sales all the way till you get to 50/50.

Terry: Yes. That’s a possibility. You never want to have where it’s just one or the other.
That’s a big key for that. And do a follow up series on your customers; have an email
sent out to them and have another email later selling something else that relates.

And a lot of times, people are going to find that they get a lot more sales for example,
you’re selling a hundred dollar product and you now have a thousand dollar product
you’d like to sell. Tell people who buy the product, “Hey, since you just bought this
product, we have this other product you might also be interested in and we’ll credit your
full hundred dollars towards this one for the next 30 days or the next 60 days.”

Fred: So it’s like they get that one for free.

Section Nine: Create Classifieds, Solo Ads, and Banners for Maximum

Now, let’s move on to our next section here, which is on ways in which you get people to
buy and you drive them to the site, things like creating classified ads and other things like
that. Why don’t we talk about all those elements now?

Terry: We talked about how you were going to do your web site; we talked about how
you were going to do your emails. Now, let’s talk about how you’re going to do some of
your other ad copy line. And you’re still doing the same format but, again, they’re all
just a little bit different variations.

The one I would like to talk about first is a solo ad. Solo ads are an email ad that you buy
in someone else’s newsletter or to someone else’s list; such as you can find a lot of online
newsletters that you can buy ads in over at That has a
whole list of them.


Terry: And they ha ve a whole list of places you can buy Ezine ads, and you’re going to
find all different Ezines out there published that you can buy ads in. Almost without fail,
those Ezine ads are a great buy if you can get what they call a solo ad. And a solo ad
means they send out your email by itself to their list.

Fred: If they won’t do that, then what?

Terry: If they won’t do that, the second best is what they call a sponsor ad. And even
though in our little terminology I wrote it as a classified ad, I really don’t buy classified
ads in Ezines. I only buy what they call a sponsor ad. A sponsor ad means that the ad
goes up near the top.

Fred: What if they have more than one of those?

Terry: If they have more than one? A sponsor ad, they might have one at the top, one in
the middle, one at the bottom – I always want the top one. The reason is I’ve tested to
my own list and I’ve tested other people’s lists; almost everybody always clicks on the
first link in the newsletter that they receive.

If you send out an email newsletter, you’re going to almost always see no matter what’s
said in the whole newsletter, the first link in the newsletter is going to get twice as many
clicks as anything else in the newsletter.

So, I always like my web site link to be the first one they see because it’s going to get
more clicks than anything else. And so I’ll go for a sponsor second. And a sponsor ad is
usually a lot shorter, like five or six lines.

But, let’s talk about the solo ad first. And if I can get a solo, I want it to go out by itself.
And in solos, they allow you to have a lot of words. Some of them might let you have 35
lines, 40 lines, 50 lines, but a key principle I use on these is I have the headline and in a
lot of cases they don’t allow you to personalize.

So, if you can, you will personalize; if you can’t, well, then you can’t. It just depends on
what they are able to do. And so I’ll have the headline and then I’ll usually have a link to
my web site. Then I’ll usually have a paragraph or two of my story and a link to my web
site. And then I’ll have some bullet points with some of the benefits and a link to my
web site. And sometimes I’ll even throw in a testimonial and a link to my web site. And,
as you can see, there’s one principle I’m trying to…

Fred: A link to your web site.

Terry: Yes, a link to my web site. I want them to go there to get the sales piece, and the
whole ad is just, okay, if the headline didn’t get you there, let’s tell you a little bit of the
story to get you there and then the bullets.

Fred: Here’s a real life example, then. I was offered by someone yesterday in their Ezine
that goes out to a very specific niche market of mine to be one of the advertisers, but I
would be one of a number of different advertisers and all of those advertisers appear in
one place.

Terry: I wouldn’t want to be in it mainly because any after the first couple aren’t going
to get any clicks. You might want it if you could be the very first one, you could be
picky and say I have to be first, because then you’ll get some click throughs. But even in
that case, it’s kind of pushing it because you almost end up being identified with
everything else that’s there, too.

When I look at an Ezine, I will never advertise in an Ezine until I receive some issues. I
want to know what’s in the issue. I want to make sure they have the right mix, which is
having sales message and content. You’ll see some Ezines out there that just have sales
messages; it has no content at all.

Fred: And some of them just content.

Terry: Right. Well, if it’s just content, you’re probably not going to be able to buy an ad
very often.

Fred: Well, I mean it’s just content except for the ads.

Terry: Well, in some cases, that might still work for you if it still has ads.

Fred: You’ve got to test it.

Terry: But what I don’t want is I never want to be in the one that doesn’t have any
content because if an email doesn’t have any content, it doesn’t matter if 200,000 people
receive it, no one reads it. So, with a solo ad, it’s simple. And then for example, if I
can’t get the solo ad, then I’ll go for a sponsor ad, which is written just like a classified

A classified ad is written with headline for the first line, then a promise, a simple
promise, then a call to action telling them what to do. And in most cases, on all those I
want to send them to an email address on an Ezine specifically. So it will say, When someone emails there, they’re started on the
autoresponder messages.

And so I’ll have a headline, and a lot of times I’ll just steal my headline. I’ll take a
headline that’s already tested and proven itself to be successful on a web site and use it
there, and just have a simple promise under it and then there’s the call to action; mail to
here for this information.

And here’s a principle to add in as well, while we’re talking about email is there are a lot
of systems out there such as Spam Assassin and other ones that actually block emails if

they start having too many key words. One of the advantages of using the shorter email
and telling people to go to a web site for the full information is you’re less likely to be hit
with one of those blockers.

If one of those blockers says that your email is spam, then people don’t get it or it just
goes automatically to their trash box. That’s another advantage of having shorter emails.
And on the same line, you’re going to find if you actually want to contact experts, it’s
much easier to make the first contact with a real short email too, like you were sending
me an email or if you were writing up a joint venture email.

If you want people to do a joint venture with you; the first email is usually a very short
one because here’s what happens: you send a five-page email for a joint venture, and a
joint venture simply means I want you to promote my product to your list and share the
profits. What ends up happening if you send a long one is the person says that’s a long
email. I’m going to get to it later. And they move it over to another box to get to it later
and that box might have 5,000 messages in it. So, you’re just keeping it short and telling
them simple information.


Fred: You are more apt to get it done. Okay, what about banners?

Terry: There are a good number of people who think that banners should be real flashy,
real fancy and real graphic oriented. The same rules we’ve been talking about for writing
web sales letters apply to banners, as well. The importance of banners is not in the
graphics; it’s in the words.

Fred: And that’s a good place to pause. We’ll stop here and turn the tape over to the
other side.

Fred Gleeck back here with Terry Dean. Final side tape 5, number 2. And here we are
again. We’re talking about banners. Tell me a little bit more about banners.

Terry: With banners, most of the time my most successful banners have been one of two
methods. Method number one…

Fred: Straight text.

Terry: …is straight text, just like the classified ad. The same classified ad I would have
tested and used, that’s exactly what’s there except it doesn’t go to the email, and it goes
to the web site, of course.

So, it’s just a straight text and that’s all that’s on there, and I use it in blue underlining so
it looks like a link. And the idea to click here with that blue underlining is to get them to
click on it. So it just looks like a simple type ad. And whenever possible, you’d like to…

Fred: But when you do that, actually the entire thing is clickable, but you say click here.

Terry: Yes, the entire thing is clickable. And whenever possible, try to look and see
where the ad is going to be, what web site it’s going to be on, match the banner and
background to the same background as the web site so it looks like just simple text on the
web site. Don’t even have a border around the banner so it just looks like it fits right into
the web site as a link on the web site. That’s what’s going to give you the best response
rate on their ad. That’s method number one.

The second method is to use what they call a trick banner, which looks kind of like a
windows pop-up box. And that might be something simple, such as it says…this
wouldn’t be one that you’d have, but you might say something like, “For more
information about,” and then it shows in front of a little box it might say, “About
searches and marketing” is what people see would be a possibility and then it says
“Click here.” And what it looks like is that box looks like something that yo u can click
on and look at more…

Fred: Versions.

Terry: More choices. And it looks like a choice box that they can click on and that ends
up having a click on a banner such as that. And we do the same thing on those too, is we
make them so they look like the background of the web site so they fit right on the web
site and it doesn’t look like a banner ad.

Here is the mistake. When people tell you banner ads don’t work, I found banner ads do
work when you work them correctly, and that means you don’t spend much on banner
ads; almost never spend more than $5 is the absolute maximum per 1,000 views of the
banner. They call it impressions of the banner.

Fred: So, $5 per thousand.

Terry: Yes, that’s the max. Sometimes you can get them for a dollar per thousand, and
that’s a much better deal.

Fred: No more than $5.

Terry: No more than $5 no matter where it’s at. And then make it look as much like the
web site as possible. And then if you use one of these models, you’re actually going to
get quite a few visitors at a decent price.

Most of the time when I run banner ads, my web site gets the visitors for between 30
cents and 80 cents apiece to my web site with the banner ad. And it’s done by using
these methods. And we didn’t even talk about graphics.

There were no graphics on these banners. And that again goes by the same concept. It’s
the words that make the sale. There’s an old saying that a picture is worth a thousand
words, and that saying just isn’t true.

Fred: At least not real as copy.

Terry: You take one picture and I get a thousand words, I’m going to beat you if you
don’t get any words because you’re not going to get much accomplished in selling
without any words.

Fred: What else? Solo ads I think we talked about. Banner ads I think we talked about.
Classifieds. Anything else?

Terry: With the solo ads, that would apply the same if you wanted to go out to another
market such as

Fred: Who’s that? What do they do?

Terry:, they have all kinds of people who come to their
web site and they signed up in order to receive advertising messages on whatever subject.
And they have quite a few things that you can split up a list from and target people very

Fred: Is that worth it? Is that usually a good thing to try?

Terry: If you test it and you’ve had successful runs in the Ezine ads and you’re making
good profits, then that’s somewhere where you would want to go and test after you’ve
made sure it’s already profitable and everything is working.

They’re more expensive because their minimum purchase is about a thousand dollars.
So, you should make sure that whatever you’re doing has been proven before you go
there. And they do generate quite a few click throughs. They average probably between
10 and
20 percent click throughs on an ad that’s sent to the right list.

Fred: Let’s say you spend a thousand dollars. How many people is that going to go out
to in your target group?

Terry: A thousand dollars is going to give you 5,000 people, so again you’re talking
about a possibility of getting…

Fred: So, a thousand dollars produces 5…how much are they charging, 20 cents per…

Terry: Yes, they’re charging 20 cents. There are other ones that also come out in the
same market that you’re going to see are out there. There’s,
there’s http://www. Htmail is kind of interesting because you can advertise

on that and people not only visit your web site, but they leave you their opinions of your
web site, as well, on the little note they have, which is kind of interesting.

When you use theirs, you can find out display problems that might have been…someone
will say your web site doesn’t work on my browser and then you have a problem if it
wasn’t working for someone. They’re a lot cheaper if you wanted to test something like

Fred: http://www.

Terry: Their minimum buys more like $50 or $100. You can
test it a lot cheaper and smaller. They just don’t have it targeted.

At you can target just about anything you want. If you
want CEOs of large companies, you can have that. They have everything split very well
in a niche target. The smaller ones don’t seem to have a strong target.

Fred: What else do we need to know in that area?

Terry: We’ve actually covered a lot of what we’re dealing with in emails because the key
principle here is a lot of people listening to this might be thinking that we need to talk
about the emails completely separate, completely different, but everything we’re talking
about is just writing copy. It’s the same thing we’ve talked about this whole process.
And it’s the same process if you go to direct mail. It’s the same process for a web site.
It’s the same process for email.

When I send out my sales letters, I’ll have sales letters that go out in packages that I send
out. Do you know what those sales letters are? They are simply the web site sales letters
converted over into a print format put in with other packages. So, understand that writing
ad copy, which we’ll go back to again, is salesmanship in print, whether it’s on the web
site, whether it’s delivered by the mail, whether it’s print or email…

Fred: Or you put it in the banner ad.

Terry: In every way that you do it, it’s still just writing copy. It’s the same principle as
we talked about. Every principle still applies. When I send out an email, I’m going to
make sure to go through it. I’m going to look for my “that’s” and my “thoughs,” which
“though” is my bad one. I’m going to look for “this” to take out and edit out; I’m going
to have somebody else read it to me.

My Emails never go out without my wife reading them first. Everything is always read
by her first so she can find all my weird mistakes that I made, because you’re going to
find that if you don’t have someone else read it, you’re going to make a lot of mistakes.

Fred: You can’t proof yourself. Good point.

Terry: And that applies to everywhere we’ve talked about is you’re still working on the
same subject whereas on the web site it’s the headline, on the email it’s the first sentence.
It’s still the headline. It still needs to be just as powerful.

Fred: Well, we’ve covered a whole lot of information. One of the things I wanted to
finish off with to show people some other exhibits in there. I’ve got exhibit number 7,
which is a seminar that I do on marketing and promoting your own seminars and

That’s exhibit number 7 in your materials and that would be valuable. I wanted I think at
this point Terry, to have people get some resources in terms of books that they might
want to read. And let’s give a list of those books that people might want to get a
collection of to learn how to write copy better. So, why don’t you just list some of them
for us?

Terry: Well, some of the ones I looked at from my shelf to see which ones were the ones
that most helped me and here are some of the ones I like best. You can get “Advertising
Secrets of the Written Word,” which is by Joe Sugarman. That is a great book. “The
Ultimate Sales Letter” by Dan Kennedy is another great book.

Both of those are specifically on writing direct mail sales letters; but again, as we talked
about throughout this whole thing, they still apply to online marketing. “Internet Direct
Mail” is specifically on writing emails, and that is a great book on doing autoresponder

Fred: I see my buddy Bob Bly is one of the authors.

Terry: “Method Marketing” is one that I don’t hear very many people ever talk about,
but it’s by Danny Hatch, and that is probably the best book I’ve ever read on empathy
and getting to know your target market. I mean that beats every other book on this list
for that and the surprising thing is I don’t know very many people who ever mention it.
The next one would be “Tested Advertising Methods” by Caples.

Fred: I see that one on the shelf, “Tested Advertising Methods,” by Caple s. Sure.

Terry: That’s an old one a lot of won’t read because they think it’s too old. And the next
one is exactly like that: “Scientific Advertising” by Claude Hopkins is another oldie.

Fred: That’s here, as well, somewhere, yes.

Terry: “Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion,” Robert Cialdini.

Fred: I see that one on the shelf, as well.

Terry: That one is one that’s really going to get you on the psychology of marketing,
about why you have to tell people the reasons and how you utilize the tactics. That’s
probably the best psychology book I’ve ever seen to use.

“If You Can Talk, You Can Write,” by Joel Saltzman. That one was specifically written
for people who want to write their own books or write their own reports, but it applies to
ad copy because the whole principle there that they’re talking about is not to admit
yourself into the perfectionism and it gets yourself to the point where you can write.

Fred: Right. If you can talk, you can write, and here it is.

Terry: “There’s a Customer Born Every Minute,” by Joe Vitale. That’s the one about
P.T. Barnum that you can pick up. “Phrases That Sell,” by Edward Werz and “Words
That Sell,” by Richard Bayan; both of those are simple little books that uses research for
other ideas of phraseolo gy, how to phrase things different.

All they are is they have a whole bunch of phrases for guarantees, they have a whole
bunch of phrases for different things. And both those books are real cheap, ten bucks,
and they’ll become a major asset to your copywriting if you pick them up. “Million
Dollar Mailings,” by Dennison Hatch.

FRED: Same as Denny Hatch, I think.

Terry: Yeah, it’s the same person. And what that is, is some of the biggest producing
sales letters of all time in one volume. This is a great way to start your swipe file on that
because that has some very powerful sales letters from some of the big companies like
Agora and the other large people who test things 70 different ways before they pick
something that runs.

Fred: The only one tha t I would add on here, that I don’t see on here that I think is really,
really worth reading as it relates to copy in one way is called “Jumpstart Your Business
Brain,” by Doug Hall. And “Jumpstart Your Business Brain” is a really good book for
figuring out creating your unique selling proposition and those kinds of things that go
into writing the copy. So, it’s not specifically on copy writing, but it would be good in
terms of getting some of those other elements down.

Terry: The advantage of all these books is you could pick up probably every single one
of these books at and you’re not going to spend a whole lot;
probably under $300 for every single one of them. And most of them are even ha rd back,
so you could have a nice collection of copywriting books and you’re going to learn more
from those books than you will from just about 99 percent of Internet marketing

You’re going to learn more about making money online because that’s the key principle
that we need to reiterate is of all the skills I’ve learned, learning how to write ad copy is
more important than me learning how to generate traffic, learning how to design web

sites, and all the other things that I’ve learned. This is the most important skill that I’ve
learned in my business.

Fred: Let’s talk a little bit about some other things that people might want to make note
of here. And I know that you’ve got a number of sites that you may want to have them
check out. Let’s sort of go back and forth here.

First off, if anybody wants any of my books, I don’t sell any of my books directly by
order because it’s a lower priced product and I have them just go to Amazon. So, you
can go to Amazon, put in my name, Fred Gleeck, G- l-e-e-c-k, that’ll come up. And along
that line, if you ever want to get in touch with me, I’m 1-800-FGLEECK and FGleeck, So, that’s all the contact information. Why don’t you give out
the same for you?

Terry: My main web site that you should visit first and subscribe to my newsletter, to get
our free newsletter that’s every two weeks, is at, b- i-z-p-r-o-

If you’d like to contact me, the easiest way to contact me is by email which you just
email Terry, My phone number is 765-332-2488. And
although we do return phone messages, email usually gets quicker access.

Fred: And also let me just give you a couple more…since my niche is a little bit more
specific, let me give you a couple I gave you earlier in the tape program. There’s also If you
want to take the free ecourse on that you can send an email to

You may want to also take a look at and we didn’t really talk about that because it’s not
relevant to this particular topic, but if you click on and go to,
spelled incorrectly,, for all of you who are interested in professional
speaking, but not in professional spelling, that would be a good site to check out.

And there are others:, we’ve got There are all kinds of different web sites. It’s
interesting. How many web sites do you have?

Terry: I have over a dozen. I don’t know how many I have all together.

Fred: It’s funny because I’ve now got a hundred or so, and what I do is I do a lot of
redirects and we’ll talk about that on some future tape program. But I think, folks, the
main thing to take away is this from this particular program, which is that you’ve been
given a wealth of information on how to write copy which as Terry says is the single
most important thing that he’s learned how to do since getting out of the pizza delivery
business. And so what would you have to say on that, Terry?

Terry: I want to mention one last tool. That is from time to time I do write copy for web
sites. If anybody needs consulting on your web site, we of course can set up a consulting
arrangement with you. I do write ad copy for web sites from time to time, and it’s always
with a deposit and a percentage of sales is always required for that. And that’s only if I
consider your project a top notch one, which you can contact me by email and we’ll see
whether I’m going to be available for doing copywriting on your project.

Fred: And if Terry agrees, you can have him write the copy and I will help you prepare
the products, because that’s what I do. I work a lot with people to create their products,
doing books, Ebooks, audios, videos, CDs, DVDs, everything else. So, you can have
Terry write the copy and have me help you create them if you so like because that’s
really my particular expertise.

Well, I think there’s been a whole lot of information here in a very short period of time.
My suggestion is that people listen to this tape program again and again and again. And
by doing so, you will get as much information you possibly can. You also have a
valuable Ebook that has all the samples that we’ve been talking about here delivered with
the product.

Terry: We recommend that everyone print out their Ebooks so you can have it as a
resource and keep it in your desk just like I keep all mine…

Fred: In 25 different binders.

Terry: And you can have your headlines there, you can see how guarantees are. And
remember, you don’t have to reinvent the wheel. You can use those ideas for your ideas.
You can’t copy it word for word, but you can use it for ideas.

Fred: You can adapt it. You can adapt it and use it. So, folks, there you have it. A lot of
information on copywriting, the most important tool in many people’s opinion in making
your business and your web sites grow. Thank you very much. For Fred Gleeck, this is
Terry Dean and Fred saying thanks very much for listening. We’ll see you next time.

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