START OF DAY - DOC - DOC by lifemate

VIEWS: 51 PAGES: 111

									25 JUNE 2008                                   PAGE: 1 of 111

                       WEDNESDAY, 25 JUNE 2008




The House met at 14:05.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment

of silence for prayers or meditation.


                          SANCA AWARENESS WEEK

                          (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: First of all, before I move the

motion without notice, I would really like to compliment you on your

stunning outfit, it really is quite excellent.

Madam Speaker, I hereby move without notice:

  That the House –

  (1)   notes that Monday, 24 June, marked the beginning of the South
25 JUNE 2008                               PAGE: 2 of 111

        African Council for Drug Dependence and Alcoholism (SANCA)

        drug awareness week and that Thursday, 26 June 2008, is

        International Day against Drug Abuse and Illicit Drug


  (2)   notes that this week aims to raise awareness regarding the

        prevention and treatment of alcohol and other drug


  (3)   recognizes that there is a massive and growing substance

        abuse problem in South Africa that affects the most

        vulnerable of communities including children, women and the

        disadvantaged leading to many lives being ruined on a daily


  (4)   acknowledges the selfless role played by stakeholders in

        civil society and in local communities in increasing public

        awareness of this problem and by providing treatment for

        alcohol and other drug dependants and their families; and

  (5)   calls on all South Africans to stand together in fighting

        this pandemic currently plaguing our communities so that the

        self-respect and dignity of all those affected by drug abuse

        can be restored.

Agreed to.
25 JUNE 2008                                  PAGE: 3 of 111


                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move without


  That the House, noting the provision of section 77(3) of the

  Constitution, instructs the Portfolio Committee on Finance to –

  (1) consider a procedure to amend money Bills before Parliament

      with a view to introducing a Bill dealing with the matter;

  (2) take into account the work already done by the Task Team on

      Oversight and Accountability on this matter, which was

      reported to the Joint Rules Committee on 19 March 2008;

  (3) report to the House by no later than 15 August 2008.

Agreed to.

                     STABBING OF MR M SKWATSHA

                        (Member‘s Statement)
25 JUNE 2008                               PAGE: 4 of 111

Mr O E MONARENG (ANC): Madam Speaker, following the stabbing of the

Western Cape provincial secretary, Comrade Mcebisi Skwatsha by a

certain Ndikho Tyawana while addressing an ANC meeting in Worcester,

a provincial disciplinary committee was convened to consider the

matter. The accused and his colleague have been found to have

violated the Constitution of the African National Congress and as a

result they have been expelled from the organisation with immediate

effect. When an individual joins the African National Congress he or

she makes the following declaration: ―I, Oupa Monareng, solemnly

declare that I will abide by the aims and objectives of the African

National Congress as set out in the Constitution, the Freedom

Charter and other duly adopted policy positions, that I am joining

the organisation voluntarily and without motives of material

advantage or personal gain, that I agree to respect the Constitution

and the structures and to work as a loyal member of the

organisation, that I will place my energies and skills at the

disposal of the organisation and carry out tasks given to me, that I

will work towards making the ANC an even more effective instrument

of liberation in the hands of the people, and that I will defend the

unity and integrity of the organisation and its principles, and

combat any tendency towards disruption and factionalism.‖

The African National Congress found Mr Tyawana and his colleague to

have violated the Constitution ...
25 JUNE 2008                               PAGE: 5 of 111

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I am not quite sure

what this has to do with Parliament as opposed to an internal ANC


Mr O E MONARENG: We, the ANC and not the DA, welcome the decisions

made by the disciplinary hearing. I thank you.

                     CORRUPTION IN SOUTH AFRICA

                        (Member‘s Statement)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: A recent survey shows that 90% of

South Africans feel that corruption has become a way of life in the

country and a further 85% believe that a lot of corruption takes

place in senior levels of government. It is not surprising that

South Africans think that corruption is endemic given the number of

senior ANC members involved in corruption cases such as Travelgate,

Oilgate and the arms deal. The fact that the leader of the governing

party is still facing criminal charges for corruption reflects the

shrinking moral fibre of the government in the ANC.

Access to state positions is abused by many in the ruling party for

personal enrichment at the expenses of the interest of the poor. The

government is too lenient in curbing corruption in state

institutions; instead of punishing and convicting corrupt government

officials. All too often these individuals are moved from one
25 JUNE 2008                               PAGE: 6 of 111

government department to another. The government needs to refine its

moral compass and take the lead to rooting out corruption from

society. For its part the DA remains committed to a vision ...

Prof B TUROK: Madam Speaker are these matters not before the courts

and therefore sub judice? Is it correct that these matters should be

raised here under the protection of the Rules of the House?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: For its part the DA remains

committed to a vision of a society in which there is zero tolerance

to corruption as its record in the City of Cape Town and other

municipalities throughout South Africa reflects.


                        (Member‘s Statement)

Ms C N Z ZIKALALA (IFP): Madam Speaker, a report by the Presidential

Working Group on Women has highlighted huge shortfalls in the

provision of water and sanitation and the failure to end violence

against women and children in our poorest provinces.

Despite all the achievements, and immense contributions of women in

our country, the women in rural and poor areas, together with

children, remain the most vulnerable members of our society.
25 JUNE 2008                                 PAGE: 7 of 111

The fact that women are so well-represented here in Parliament and

in government should mean that gender issues become more prominent

and take on an increased importance, and that more resources are

allocated to the plight of the many women and children who are

suffering in the rural and poor areas.

This, however, is unfortunately not the case as the suffering and

vulnerability of women and children continues. We are failing these

vulnerable groups. [Interjections.] Thula wena! [You shut up!]


There is no doubting the strength of South African women and I

believe that we, here in Parliament, can, and must, take the lead

with this important issue and put a stop to the suffering of our

many sisters and children who have no voice. All women in positions

of power and authority must use the resources at their disposal to

mainstream gender issues so that they receive the attention that

they deserve. We owe this to the many women and children of South

Africa who are trapped in suffering and misery and who are still

abused everyday. Awuthule wena! [You must shut up!]


                          (Member‘s Statement)
25 JUNE 2008                               PAGE: 8 of 111

Mnu D M GUMEDE (ANC): Kusukela ngomhla zingama-20 kuya mhla zingama-

22 kuJuni 2008 uMbutho Wenkululeko, i-ANC, ubukade ubambe

ingqungquthela yesifundazwe KwaZulu-Natali eMgungund lovu. Injongo

enkulu ye-ANC ukwakha iNingizimu Afrika engenalubandlululo

ngokwebala, ngokobulili nangokobuzwe. Silwela ukwakha iNingizimu

Afrika ebumbene nesebenza ngokulandela imigomo yentando yeningi

lapho zonke izakhamuzi ziyophila impilo enhle nenokuthula.

Ingqungquthela yesifundazwe KwaZulu-Natali iwuqhubele phambili

umzabalazo wethu ngokuthi iyalele amagatsha kanye nawo onke amalungu

ukuthi sisebenze singakhathali, ukuze siqiniseke ukuthi zonke

izinqumo zengqungquthela eyayisePolokwane ziyafezeka.

Ingqungquthela ibuye yazibophelela ukuqhuba umzabalazo wokulwa

nobuphofu kanye nokweseleka kwezinto eziyizidingo zokuphila

njengamanzi, izindlu, imisebenzi, ezemfundo kanye nezempilo.

Siyayihalalisela i-ANC ngokuba nengqungquthela eyimpumelelo enkulu.

Halala kwi-ANC KwaZulu-Natali! Halala! (Translation of isiZulu

member’s statement follows.)

[Mr D M GUMEDE (ANC): The African National Congress in KwaZulu-Natal

held a provincial conference in Pietermaritzburg. The conference

started on the 20th and ended on the 22nd of June 2008. The main

focus of the ANC is to build a South Africa that is free from

discrimination on the basis of race, gender and nationality. We

strive to build a South Africa that is united and that works in
25 JUNE 2008                                  PAGE: 9 of 111

accordance with the democratic values where all citizens live better

and peaceful lives.

The KwaZulu-Natal provincial conference responded to our call by

mandating all branches and their members to work tirelessly, to

ensure that all Polokwane resolutions are met.

The conference also resolved to continue the fight against poverty

and to deal with the lack of basic services such as the provision of

water, housing, employment, education and health care. We

congratulate the ANC for holding a very successful conference. Bravo

to the ANC in KwaZulu-Natal! Bravo!]


                           (Member‘s Statement)

Mrs C DUDLEY (ACDP): Madam Speaker, the Movement for Democratic

Change‘s decision to pull out of the 27 June elections in Zimbabwe

speaks of a people and a party committed to a democratic outcome

against all odds! They said:

  Elections are our game. We do not want to take to the streets or

  to pick up weapons to make our point; we are democrats.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 10 of 111

When the MDC won the 29 March elections, 73% of the population voted

against Mugabe. It was quite unbelievable that SADC states stood by

- seemingly helpless.

The hon Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Susan van der Merwe,

promised in this House that the South African government would watch

closely for signs of violence and abuse and would respond if

necessary. Hon Minister, do you know how many deaths, abductions and

other horrors like chopping off of hands and feet, may have been

averted if the South African government had taken its head out of

the sand?

Calls for the Security Council to meet urgently to discuss Zimbabwe

and the UN Secretary-General being more vocal and on the situation;

the new consensus emerging within SADC as Angola, Swaziland and the

ANC if not government, become new critics, and today‘s SADC meeting

on Zimbabwe are promising and we hope will bring some action.

The intensified nationwide campaign of violence and intimidation in

Zimbabwe have totally put paid to any possibility of a free or fair


The obvious need now is for the formation of a transitional

government that will include all parties to take the country through

a period of stabilization and recovery before holding new elections.

This can, however, hold no place for Mugabe who has shown himself to
25 JUNE 2008                               PAGE: 11 of 111

be the cruel enemy of his people and has disqualified himself in

every possible way.


                         (Member‘s Statement)

Mrs P DE LILLE (ID): Madam Speaker, just because the German

prosecution authorities have stopped their investigation into German

citizens and companies involved in the arms deal, does not mean the

case is over, or that anybody in South Africa is off the hook.

The only reason that they have decided to stop the investigation is

because they have been frustrated by the lack of co-operation by the

South African authorities.

The responsibility for investigating and prosecuting South Africans

involved in the arms deal rests with the National Prosecuting

Authority and the NPA's reluctance to cooperate with the Germans is

an indictment on this government.

The NPA has subpoenaed me twice over the past nine years and I have

handed over all the documents relating to the German investigation.

But, because of political interference, the NPA has failed

hopelessly to investigate and prosecute the crooks in our midst
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 12 of 111

because, and I have said this before and I will say it again;

corruption steals from the poor.

The ID will continue to fight for the truth in the arms deal and for

an end to corruption in our country. It is only useful idiots that

want to stop this investigation.


                        (Member‘s Statement)

Mr I S MFUNDISI (UCDP): Madam Speaker, education in the country is

beset by many problems, such as a poor or no culture of teaching and

learning; a lack of discipline among teachers and pupils alike; a

shortage of teachers and a lack of facilities in some instances.

This may perhaps be traced back to the failure by government post-

1994 to seek a philosophy for education, as did countries such as

Botswana with their education for Kagisano and Tanzania with Julius

Nyerere‘s Ujamaa or education for self-reliance.

After accepting 20 or so education departments, all that the new

government did was to impose a new curriculum which was not well-

researched and has come to be a bone of contention in the schooling

system, because it was not internalised by the practitioners and the

25 JUNE 2008                               PAGE: 13 of 111

That almost all MECs for education in the provinces lament the poor

training of teachers; the class sizes in most schools exceed the

policy norms and teachers nowadays leave teaching in their droves is

cause for concern.

The Department of Education will have to double their efforts to

make teaching attractive and a career of choice. While efforts are

being made to make education accessible through the no-fees schools,

the problem is that schools go for months without amenities because

of the bureaucracy that goes with the release of funds.

Another problem in this case could be that those who run the schools

are not certain how to requisition for the funds. Interventions

aimed at assisting schools in poor communities seem to bear no fruit

as the schools do not own their terms to improve their performances.

The UCDP calls on the department to assist the provincial

departments much more.


                         (Member‘s Statement)

Ms A M DREYER (DA): Madam Speaker, the Minister of Labour recently

made rather bizarre statements about the recent High Court ruling

that, for the purposes of the Employment Equity Act, Chinese people

are regarded as black.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 14 of 111

If the Minister does not accept the ruling, he can appeal against

it. Alternatively, he should respect the judgement and keep quiet

about it. One would hope that as South Africans, we have put the

race classification behind us. That Act was already scrapped in

1991, that is 17 years ago, but now it seems race classification is

back with a vengeance; however, this time without any legal basis.

While the Minister is obsessed with dividing people into various

race boxes, millions of South Africans are fighting for survival,

confronted with real problems such as unemployment, poverty, crime

and Aids. The Minister would serve South Africa‘s people better if

he welcomed the fact that many South African Chinese people have

brought with them skills, entrepreneurship and a work ethic, and

have created thousands of jobs.


                        (Member‘s Statement)

Mr G J SELAU (ANC): Madam Speaker, the ANC takes this opportunity to

congratulate the Madibeng local municipality in the area of Brits,

in the North West province of South Africa, for adopting a project

called the Moriti project in the office of the executive mayor. In

terms of this project, they identify orphans and child-headed

households within their jurisdiction and assist them by way of

education, food and shelter, through fundraising and requesting
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 15 of 111

donations from supportive and sympathetic communities and

individuals around the municipal areas and beyond.

This is informed by our history of ubuntu, in terms of which, for

instance, if a child had no parents, the nearest relative would take

the responsibility of taking care of that child as part of the

family; where a family was without a child, the nearest relative

would avail a child to be part of the family; and where there was no

food in one family, the next family would provide.

The ANC‘s national democratic revolution struggle aimed at building

a nonracial, nonsexist, democratic, prosperous and caring nation is

derived from the values mentioned in this statement, among other


The ANC calls on municipalities, government departments, traditional

leaders and their communities, all formations and institutions of

society to take this example and play an active role in changing the

lives of South Africans for the better, irrespective of where they


The social development grants alone cannot be enough. The people

shall share in the country‘s wealth. Thank you.

25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 16 of 111

                        (Member‘s Statement)

Mnu A M MPONTSHANE (IFP): Somlomo, iNkatha Yenkululeko izobamba

ingqungquthela yesifundazwe ezoqala mhla zingama-27 kuya mhla

zingama-29 kule nyanga kaJuni eNyuvesi yaKwaZulu-Natali

eMgungundlovu. Le ngqungquthela ibaluleke kakhulu ngoba ilungiselela

futhi yendlalela ukhetho oluzayo. Ngakho-ke sifisela zonke

izithunywa ezizobe zihambele le ngqungquthela impumelelo.

Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu member’s statement


[Mr A M MPONTSHANE (IFP): Chairperson, the Inkatha Freedom Party

will hold a provincial conference at the University of KwaZulu-Natal

in Pietermaritzburg from the 27th to the 29th of June 2008. This

conference is very important because it is in preparation of the

next general elections. We therefore wish all the delegates who will

be attending this conference all the best. Thank you. [Applause.]]


                        (Member‘s Statement)

Mna R J MASHIGO (ANC): Ke a leboga, Sepikara, batho ba go tšwa

dinageng tše dingwe tša Afrika ka porofenseng ya Limpopo,

Groblersdal, bao ba ilego ba hlaselwa ka lebaka la dikhuduego tša go

sepelelana le lehloyo la batšwantle ba boletše ka molomo o tee gore
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 17 of 111

bjalo ba ka bitša Afrika-Borwa legae gape. Seemo kua Mohlaletsi se

kaonafetše morago ga gore mokete wo o ikgethilego wo o bego o swere

ka la 8 June ka nepo ya go bušetša batšwasehlabelo bao setšhabeng.

Yo mongwe wa batšwasehlabelo e lego Mna Freeman Nyanisi o rile:

Tšohle di boetše sekeng. Ga go sa na ditšhošetšo. Ebile maphodisa a

re etela ka dinako tšohle go dira bonnete bja gore re bolokegile.

Moketeng wo wa la 8 June, Molekgotlaphethiši wa Thuto e lego Ngaka

Motswaledi, Kgošikgolo ya Bapedi ya motšwaoswere e lego Sekhukhune

le Mna Masemola ba ile ba gatelela ntlha ye bohlokwa ya gore

mengwageng ye e fetilego, balwela tokologo ba rena ba ile ba fiwa

madulo ke dinaga tša ka ntle. Ba bangwe ba balwela tokologo ye, e be

e le Mna Lawrence Phokanoka le Mna Flag Boshielo bao ba tswaletšwego

profenseng ya Limpopo ka moka ga bona.

Bjalo ka ANC, re rata go leboga maitapišo a batho ka moka ba

Mohlaletsi ka go dira bonnete bja gore khutšo le tšhireletšo di ba

gona setšabeng. Thobela. (Translation of Sepedi member’s statement


[Mr R J MASHIGO (ANC): Thank you, Madam Speaker. Those people who

reside in the Limpopo province, in Groblersdal, who come from other

states in Africa and who have experienced xenophobic attacks voiced

that they can again call South Africa home. After a special

celebration held on 18 June, with the intention of reintegrating the

xenophobic victims into society, the situation became better. One of
25 JUNE 2008                               PAGE: 18 of 111

the victims, Mr Freeman Nyanisi said: ―Everything is back to normal.

The threats are nonexistent. The police even patrol at all times to

make sure that we are protected‖.

During that Celebration of 8 June, Dr Motswaledi, the MEC of

Education, Sekhukhune, the acting Paramount Chief of the Bapedi and

Mr Masemola stressed the point that our freedom fighters in the

previous years were accommodated in other countries. Freedom

fighters, who fought for this liberation, such as Mr Lawrence

Phokanoka and Flag Boshielo, were both born and bred in Limpopo


As the ANC, we would like to thank all the people in Mohlaletsi for

their efforts in making it possible that peace and security reign in

society. Thank you.]


                         (Member‘s Statement)

Mr J SCHWARTZ (DA): Madam Speaker, there is a well-known song

called, There are 9 million bicycles in Beijing, sung by Katie

Melua. She obviously has a very great fan in the Department of

Transport who convinced the department to set aside money from the

budget to buy a million bicycles which could be dished out to

children in rural areas who cannot access public transport.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 19 of 111

This is a very noble idea but if there had been proper planning

before the time, he would have found out that there are bicycle

manufacturers in South Africa in the first instance, and secondly,

that there is no manufacturer at all that can supply the million

budgeted for immediately.

The result of all this is that the remaining R31 million will be

unspent on a capital budget for which the Minister of Finance had to

make income provision. The lack of planning by way of properly

thought through business plans crops up in all departments and it is

particularly true with regard to the provisions made for the

appointment of staff.

We call on government to commit to proper planning when compiling

the annual budgets so as to ensure that budget provisions are made

only where necessary and with emphasis on poverty alleviation.

Provisions made for funds that are unlikely to be spent place an

unnecessary burden on the taxpayers. Thank you.


                        (Member‘s Statement)

Ms M M NTULI (ANC): Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Indalo Yethu

Environmental Scholarship Fund has ensured that 50 students will
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 20 of 111

have an opportunity to study environmental science at higher

education institutions next year.

The programme is part of the South African Environmental Campaign

which was launched in 2006 by the Department of Environmental

Affairs and Tourism. The department in partnership with the

Umsobomvu Youth Fund and the Old Mutual Foundation will also

contribute to the training of 10 000 young people who would be

trained as energy savers. The campaign is meant to stimulate

conversation about energy efficiency and environmental issues.

This will contribute to efforts to raise public awareness about

energy saving. Energy safety reduces both greenhouse gases and the

need to build new power plans. The African National Congress

commends the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, the

Umsobomvu Youth Fund and the Old Mutual Foundation on their efforts

to improve awareness about energy and environmental issues. Thank

you, Madam Speaker.


                        (Member‘s Statement)

Mna B L MASHILE (ANC): Magoši ka moka ao a welago ka fase ga

Mmasepala wa Letaba kua porofenseng ya Limpopo a filwe thuto ya go

sepedišana le tšhomišo ya dikhomphuta. Ramotse wa Mmasepala wa
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 21 of 111

Letaba, Mna Joshua Matlou, o re: ―Re ile ra tšea sephetho sa gore re

akaretše baetapele ba setšo mo lenaneong la rena la thuto la go

šomiša dikhomphutha ka ge e le bona ba etilego ditirelo tša mmušo

pele mo dinagang-magaeng.‖

Maloko a setšhaba le bašomedi ba mmasepala bao ba ka lekanago

makgolo a mabedi le bona ba tšeere karolo mo lenaneong leo la go

rulagantšhwa ke mmasepala. Re le mokgatlo wa ANC, re tshepha gore

bjalo ka naga, gore re tle re kgone go fihlelela dikenywa tša

tokologo, re swanetše go ema ka maoto re rute setšhaba gomme re

tsošološe setšo sa go hlankela setšhaba. Go kaonafatša thuto le

bokgoni mo setšhabeng ke seo re se hlokago go fihlelela ditoro tša

rena tša go phethagatša bophelo bjo bokaone go batho bohle ba Afrika

–Borwa. Mošate. [Legoswi.] (Translation of Sepedi member’s statement


[Mr B L MASHILE (ANC): All the Chiefs under the Letaba Municipality

in the Limpopo province have been equipped with computer skills. The

Mayor of Letaba Municipality, Mr Joshua Matlou, says: ―We took a

decision to include traditional leaders in our computer skills

programme as they are the leaders of government services in the

rural areas.‖

About two hundred members of the community and municipality

officials also took part in this programme that was organised by the

municipality. As ANC members, we believe that for us to be able to
25 JUNE 2008                               PAGE: 22 of 111

attain the fruits of freedom as a country, we must strive to teach

the nation and revive the tradition of working for the people. To

educate people and equip them with skills are what we need to do, to

reach our dream of a better life for all South Africans. Thank you.



                         (Minister‘s Response)

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Madam Speaker, the ANC has never been a

racist organisation. [Interjections.] The ANC is very proud of its

history; very proud of its struggles and battles against racism. The

ANC is also very confident of the future, the future of a country

that will be free of racism, a country and a society that will be

nonracist, nonsexist and democratic.

The hon member, together with the one who is barking, remember that

the court document says the following - if you have read it:

 Having read the counsel of the applicants, and by agreement

 between the parties, it is hereby ordered as follows:

 It is declared that South African Chinese people fall within the

 ambit of the definition of black people in section 1 of the

 Employment Equity Act, 55 of 1998.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 23 of 111

There has been much comment and, with respect, also distortion of

facts and legal issues surrounding the application made by the

Chinese Association of South Africa against this Ministry. The true

facts are as follows:

The Chinese Association of South Africa sought an order in the main

declaring South African Chinese people as falling within the ambit

of the definition of black people. Therefore, there is absolutely no

need for anyone to amend the Employment Equity Act. In essence, that

is what I was communicating to journalists: Please read the court

documents. It is very simple; there are only two or three sentences

in it. Even a Sub A child can read it.

If you are racist, don‘t rub it off on me. I have never been a

racist and I will never be a racist. It came by three boats, the

Drommedaris, Reijger and others, to South Africa. [Laughter.] They

found me here, and I was not a racist. That is why I joined the ANC.



                        (Minister‘s Response)

The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Madam Speaker, I would like to take

this opportunity to thank the hon Mashile for bringing to our

attention the inclusion of traditional leaders in the skills
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 24 of 111

development programmes around the ICT sector. This is an important

move. Many have accused this ANC government of not attending to

those who are in rural areas, particularly in the traditional


We thank the Greater Letaba Municipality for including the

traditional leaders in their development programme. They sit as

traditional leaders on our Intergovernmental Relations Forum because

they have their representatives there. We recognise the need for

them to understand the importance of ICTs in our national

development, a development that is not meant only for urban areas

but also for rural areas, particularly also for our traditional

areas. We have also set up e-co-operatives that are established in

all provinces to assist municipalities and their citizens.

We as a government and as the ANC party have said ICTs must in fact

be expanded to include all of our people. If it did not happen in

the first few years it is certainly beginning to happen and these

municipalities are showing us that it is possible to make ICTs part

of our socioeconomic development. We thank them for having taken

this direction and also thank Members of Parliament for bringing

this to our attention.

Re a leboga. Re re le kamoso. [Legofi.] [Thank you. Keep it up and

well done. [Applause.]]
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 25 of 111


                       (Minister‘s Response)


would like to respond to the member‘s statement on environmental

issues. We appreciate the sentiments expressed. The initiative,

along with our partners in the NGO sector and the private sector, is

to take environmental education to a new level.

I would also like to respond to the second part of the statement,

namely to the reduction of greenhouse gasses and the building of new

power plants - three issues. The first issue is that recently we

made public the result of the long-term mitigation scenario study

which is the first effort by our government to agree on a framework

to deal with this issue in future.

The second issue deals with the last power plant that we gave a

green light to on environmental grounds. There was a specific

requirement for that power plant to be carbon-capture storage ready

and that is something that we will in future look into very

seriously to ensure that we align ourselves with the international

best practice.

The third issue is that I am quite aware that there is a

parliamentary delegation on its way to the Kobe meeting in Japan to
25 JUNE 2008                               PAGE: 26 of 111

precede the G8 plus 5 meetings. We would like to wish them luck and

in the same vein say that we have taken note that both the American

and Japanese governments have said that they want to put pressure on

us - South Africa and the other four developing countries - to agree

on the target of cutting emissions 50% by 2050. Our message to them

is quite straightforward: We will never agree to the developed world

passing on their responsibilities to developing countries and

expecting from us to start subsidising their ambitions and their

lifestyles. We will only agree to that if the developed countries

agree to clear midterm targets. And on that issue we are not going

to compromise. Thank you, Madam Speaker.




                       (Minister‘s Response)

TONA YA THUTO: Modulasetulo, o itse fa ke le motho yo o tlotlang

bagolo, jaanong fa rre wa lekoko la UCDP a bua jaaka a buile ke

iphitlhela ke idima, ke sa itse gore ke tla mo tlotla jang. O a itse

gore dilo tse a di buileng motho a ka se re ke nnete. E sale ke bua

ke kopa gore re se dire dilo tsa thuto dilo tsa polotiki ka gore ga

gona motho yo o ka itumelang fa bana ba sa rutiwe.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 27 of 111

O itse sentle gore re ntse re dira dilo di le dintsi. E ka sere fa

re ema fa re bua gore bana ba tsene sekolo ba sa duele madi go bo go

twe ga se selo se se siameng. Re a se dira. Mo dikolong di feta

5 000 bana ba tsena sekolo ba sa duele madi. Go a direga.

Dikolo di le dintsi di bone madi a a fetang a ba kileng ba a bona fa

ba re bana ba tlise R25,00 kgotsa R30,00 kwa sekolong. A re dumeleng

gore se ke selo se sentle, re tla netefatsa gore se dire botoka ka

gonne re a itse gore go ntse go na le mathata. A re eleng tlhoko

gore fa re bua re se bue jaaka e kete ga re batle dilo tseo di


Sabobedi, ga se nnete gore dilo tse re di dirang ga di thuse; di a

thusa. Re tsentse dibuka mo diphaposing, re aga dilaeborari, re aga

dikolo. Le mo o nnang teng o a di bona dikolo di teng. Fa re bua ka

barutabana, bana ba rutiwa ke barutabana ba bantsi go feta ba ba

neng ba le teng ka 1993 fa o le kwa Bophuthatswana. O a itse le wena

gore re ba okeditse, ba bantsi jaanong. Diphaposi ga di sa tlhole di

na le bana ba ba ntsi jaaka maloba. A re amogeleng dilo tse, re bue

nnete ka tsona. Go ne go sena dibasari; bana ba ne ba sa tsene mo

diyunibesiting; re ne re sena dibasari tsa diFET; dilo tseo tsotlhe

di tlile ka rona. Di amogele rra ka gonne re di baya mo diatleng tsa

gago. [Legofi.] (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, you know very well that I

have respect for the elderly, but if someone speaks in this manner
25 JUNE 2008                                 PAGE: 28 of 111

like this gentleman from the UCDP, I find it very difficult to show

my respect for him. I would also like to note that all the things he

said were not true. I have requested that we should not use

educational matters for political gains, because there is no one who

would be happy if children are not taught.

It should be acknowledged that a lot has been done. The introduction

of the nonpayment of school fees in more than 5000 schools is a

reality and people should accept that it is happening and it is the

right thing to do.

A lot of schools have received more funds than they ever had in the

period when learners were asked to pay R25,00 or R30,00. We need to

acknowledge that it is indeed a good idea, and we will ensure that

it is done properly although there have been problems around this.

We should be careful not to speak as if we are against anything

which is being introduced.

Secondly, it is not true that we do not benefit from what is done.

We provided books and built libraries and more schools. There are

even schools where you come from. There are more educators now in

our schools to teach learners than they were during the

Bophuthatswana era. You know very well that we have employed more

teachers now. Classrooms are no longer overcrowded like they used to

be in the past. May we acknowledge that and be honest about it.

There were no bursaries and even for the FET band, all these have
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 29 of 111

been introduced by us. You must learn to come to terms with them

sir, because we are offering it to you. [Applause.]]

Secondly, I really would like to congratulate all those Members of

Parliament who made reference to work that is being done in the

various municipalities, with respect to delivery of social services.

In particular, I must express my great appreciation for the work

done in the Letaba Municipality to provide Information,

Communication and Technology training to traditional leaders and

municipal workers.

As the House would know, it is our view that traditional leaders can

indeed play a very important role in advancing development in their

communities and in our country as a whole. Therefore, ensuring that

they have the skills to advance the work of development that we

anticipate they would is a welcome development indeed.

I would also say that I‘m very grateful that the hon member made

reference to the open welcome of foreign nationals back into their

communities in the Limpopo province. I think this is a very positive

development. But it comes along with a need for us to acknowledge

that in the majority of communities in our country there was no

attack on and violence perpetrated against foreign nationals. It was

a minority of people who behaved in this way. The majority of South

Africans have opened their arms, have been kind and have given

wholeheartedly. It is these South Africans who reflect the true
25 JUNE 2008                                PAGE: 30 of 111

spirit of our democracy, and we believe we must thank them for their

commitment to making South Africa belong to all who live in it.

Thank you.


                         (Minister‘s Response)

The MINISTER OF MINERALS AND ENERGY: I just want to respond to the

statement made on energy efficiency. I want to join the hon member

in commending all those people who are contributing to making sure

that this campaign is a success, but would also like to say that the

list is not exhaustive. We have seen provincial governments

launching their own energy efficiency campaigns. Gauteng led in this

regard with Western Cape following and I think that a number of

other provinces - even if that has not been brought to my attention

- are doing something.

Also, the African National Congress has led by example. Its

pamphlets have already been distributed at some institutions. My own

appeal would be that, in order for this campaign to be successful,

we should all lead by example in this House; from our houses into

our constituencies. It‘s only when we work together that this

campaign will be a success. I thank you.

25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 31 of 111

                       (Minister‘s Response)


would like to respond to the hon Dudley, the hon member from the

ACDP. I think we should really not be disingenuous about this

matter. The South African government, as the hon member and this

House know, has condemned in no uncertain terms the violence

committed in Zimbabwe. Earlier this week the South African

government has also supported the United Nations Security Council

Presidential Statement which begins with the condemnation of

violence in that country.

What we have always done, and continue to do, is to work with our

SADC neighbours, the African Union and the United Nations to find a

solution to the current state of affairs in Zimbabwe. Even as we

meet here today, our people are engaged in Zimbabwe as observers in

the SADC Observer Mission. There are also members of the opposition

in that team who are in our embassy in Harare. Through the

SADC-mandated Facilitation Team they will work to bring that country

to a peaceful resolution to their problems.

Once again, our interest is in a solution to the problem; not to

further exacerbate a tense and volatile situation. We join the SADC

region and the broader international community in urging Zimbabwean

parties to co-operate fully with all efforts aimed at finding a

peaceful way forward, including the possibility of a transitional
25 JUNE 2008                               PAGE: 32 of 111

arrangement. We will continue to do this until a solution is found.

I thank you.



                          (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move the

draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

  That Rule 253(1), which provides inter alia that the debate on the

  Second Reading of a Bill may not commence before at least three

  working days have elapsed since the committee‘s report was tabled,

  be suspended for the purposes of conducting the Second Reading

  debate today on the Child Justice Bill [B 49B — 2002] (National

  Assembly - sec 75).

Agreed to.


                          (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move the

draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
25 JUNE 2008                                 PAGE: 33 of 111

  That the House, noting that Zimbabwe is holding a Presidential

  run-off election on 27 June 2008 and in pursuance of the request

  from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, subject to the concurrence

  of the National Council of Provinces, resolves that –

  (1) a twenty-member multiparty delegation of the South African

      Parliament observe these elections;

  (2) the delegation forms part of the SADC observer mission;

  (3) the delegation observes the campaign in the run-up to the

      elections, the casting of votes and subsequently the counting

      of the votes; and

  (4) the delegation presents the mission‘s report to Parliament on

      its return.

Agreed to.



Order disposed of without debate.

25 JUNE 2008                                 PAGE: 34 of 111

 That the Report be noted.

Motion agreed to.

Report accordingly noted.

                            CHILD JUSTICE BILL

                      (Second Reading debate)


Speaker, hon members, it is with great pleasure that I introduce the

second reading debate on the Child Justice Bill, particularly during

this month of June. This month our country celebrates and

commemorates the role played by the youth in liberating our country.

We are celebrating this month by creating a criminal justice system

that gives children who find themselves in conflict with the law an

opportunity to be treated in a manner that takes into account their

vulnerability and socioeconomic problems created by the racial

divide of the past and also to promote the spirit of ubuntu.

We are aware that this Bill has its origins not only within the

context of international obligations but also through ANC policy

that has always put children at the forefront in the reconstruction

and development of our country.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 35 of 111

Thus section 28 of the Constitution regards every person under the

age of 18 as a child and among others gives every child the right

not to be detained except as a measure of last resort. What is

important is that our Constitution advances progressive childcare

and child development.

We have also ratified the United Nations Convention on the Rights of

the Child. We ratified this convention in 1995. The convention

requires state parties to promote the establishment of laws,

procedures, authorities and institutions specifically applicable to

children as well as children in conflict with the law.

State parties are also required to establish a minimum age below

which children shall be presumed not to have the capacity to

infringe penal law. Following the ratification of the convention, my

predecessor the late Dullah Omar in 1997 approached the Law Reform

Commission to investigate an appropriate child justice system. The

investigation was consultative and involved discussions with all

role-players, and I mean all members of the Justice, Crime

Prevention and Security cluster, even in the broader sense of

including social workers, academics, the judiciary – both the high

and the lower courts; that is the judges and magistrates.

As indicated in the long title, the preamble and the clause setting

out the objects of the proposed legislation, the Bill aims to create

the criminal justice system for children in accordance with the
25 JUNE 2008                                 PAGE: 36 of 111

values underpinning our Constitution. I am not going to go into the

details of the Bill. I am, though, going to refer to aspects of the

Bill in order to highlight important innovative policy areas that

are in this Bill.

The Bill amends the common law relating to the minimum age of

criminal capacity; it sets the minimum age of criminal capacity at

10 years with the possibility of review in the next few years. The

Bill further provides for a mechanism to deal with children who lack

criminal capacity.

The approval of this Bill by the National Assembly today will indeed

be an historical event. The Bill is divided into various chapters,

each dealing with the relevant stage of the criminal process. I must

mention at the outset that although the Bill creates a new system

for children, the system is not completely removed from the existing

criminal justice system.   In other words, it coheres very well with

the current broad criminal justice system.

The Bill still reverts to the provision of the Criminal Procedure

Act of 1977 to deal with certain matters such as bail. Chapters 3

and 4 of the Bill contain provisions regarding methods of securing

the attendance of children at proceedings and the release or

detention and placement of children.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 37 of 111

I also would like to refer to an area which I think is of importance

and also indicates the innovative approach that our Parliament has

taken. The preliminary inquiry for these young offenders is one of

the innovations created by the proposed legislation. The preliminary

inquiry, although regarded as the child‘s first appearance in court,

is an informal pre-trial procedure which is inquisitorial in nature.

One of the main objectives of the preliminary inquiry is to

establish whether the matter can be diverted. Diversion is a big

part of this legislation and what I like most is that there is

quality assurance because diversion programmes must be accredited

and service providers, because government can‘t do it alone, must be

properly registered. I think that is a great innovation.

I must also point out that the Bill includes a wide range of

sentencing options such as nonresidential or community-based

sentences; sentences involving restorative justice concepts such

restitution and compensation to the victim, correctional supervision

and finally sentences involving a residential element, that is

detention in a child and youth care centre referred to in the

Children‘s Act of 2005.

There is also an attempt to bring what exists together. I think what

is also worth mentioning as an important strength of this Bill is

the promotion of co-operative governance. This Bill requires various

departments to work together to address services for children
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 38 of 111

processed through the criminal justice system in a co-ordinated and

holistic manner.

The Bill requires the alignment of policies, practices and

intersectoral planning of the agencies of the criminal justice

department. Also of importance is that the offences are actually

placed in schedules. There are five schedules and they are

determined in accordance with the seriousness of the offence. Once

more I am hoping that my colleagues will elaborate, especially those

who worked very hard in Parliament expanding on the policy informing

the legislation. I must, at this stage, urge us all in this House

without reservation to – and I am told that this is a possibility –

support this Bill.

At this point I want to thank the chairperson of the portfolio

committee, Comrade Yunis Carrim, for his excellent work, and the

long hours he spent in discussion with all parties represented in

that portfolio committee.

I also want to thank my Deputy Minister. From the very onset of this

legislation many years back until the last discussions between the

executive and the portfolio committee – I won‘t tell you when that

was - you have sterlingly contributed to the substance that is the

essence of this Bill.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 39 of 111

I must thank the subdirectorate in the court services, vulnerable

groups, and many people do not know that South Africa can boast with

having some of the finest drafters of legislation. And I want to

thank, in my department, the very hardworking officials who worked

tirelessly to produce the drafts that we, in Justice, present to

this House. I do know that you have been complemented, even by the

chairperson of the portfolio committee in private – ooh, I am

divulging secrets here – but you have done very well and thank you

very much. [Time expired.]

Mr Y I CARRIM: Madam Speaker, comrades and friends, the quality of a

democracy and the prospects of its future are, in no small measure,

reflected in a way it treats its children. And what better a test of

this than the child justice system it opts for? So this Bill tells

more about us as a country and people and about where we come from

and where we are going to than we might acknowledge. Which is why it

is so important to get this Bill right and which is why, too, if it

is important to pass Bills that are pragmatic, practicable and

doable, it is also important not to abandon identity, principle,

values and goals. If this Bill is about many balances, it is

fundamentally a balance between the real and the ideal, between

capacity and fulfilment, between now and then. In short, the Bill is

both pragmatic and aspirational within the framework of an overall

implementation strategy.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 40 of 111

It is, in fact, a highly civilised Bill. Which is why, though issues

of crime persistently divide this House, all the major parties, I

understand, are supporting this Bill. How easy it would have been,

with elections looming, to over politicise the issues of the Bill,

but nobody succumbed, quite simply because all of us recognise the

value of children in our society.

I‘ll deal with the committee‘s overall approach to the Bill and draw

from our report published in today‘s Announcements, Tablings and

Committee Reports. Other members will deal with specific aspects of

the Bill. The approach of the committee in processing the Bill this

year was similar to that of the 2002 committee, which revolved

around two principal considerations; firstly, the need to balance

the constitutional rights of the child and the rights of the victims

of crime and the community to safety and security - there are

glitches here in my typing - secondly, the need to ensure that the

state has the capacity to effectively implement the new child

justice system.

We are excruciatingly aware of the high levels of crime in our

country and the capacity of children, no less, to commit crime. We

are aware too of the public perception that the state is failing to

curb crime. It‘s precisely, indeed, because of these concerns that

the Bill took the form it has. Of course, it‘s important to be tough

on crime, including crime committed by children, but this has to be

part of a process of preventing and reducing crime over time, and
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 41 of 111

ensuring that children don‘t constantly re-offend, becoming part of

an endless cycle of crime. What future has the country otherwise?

Clearly, there need to be short, medium and long-term programmes,

measures and targets as part of an overall sustainable long-term

strategy to reduce crime by children as part of a broader approach

to reduce crime generally.

There are, of course, many complex objective and subjective reasons

for crime committed by children. A significant part of crime has

fundamental material and structural roots, and unless we adequately

address these systemic issues and develop a child justice system

that is effectively based on both preventing and combating crime, we

will not be able to reduce crime levels significantly. This is not

to be reductionist, in other words, understanding crime simply as an

outcome of the social structure, nor is it, indeed, to ignore the

subjective choices children make to commit crime for which they must

be held accountable. It is about finding a balance between the

objective and subjective dimensions of crime committed by children.

We should not be romantic about children in our country or ignore

the extent to which children, especially older children,

subjectively choose to commit crime and must be held accountable.

Nor should we downplay the state‘s responsibility to ensure the

safety and security of both the potential victims of crime and

society. But we have to avoid an exceptionalism that borders on

suggesting that South African children, basically African children,
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 42 of 111

are inherently worse than other children universally and are

incapable of being rescued from a predilection to committing crime;

which borders, in effect, on neo-racist theories. It is in striking

a path between these two extremes that the portfolio committee‘s

approach was directed.

The committee processed this Bill in a somewhat different context

this year from 2002. Of course, public anxieties and frustrations

about the levels of crime and the perceptions of the state‘s failure

have heightened. These are very understandable feelings and views

and the committee is entirely empathetic. But we cannot shape

legislation on a new sustainable model of child justice with both

immediate and long-term goals surely on the basis of public emotion,

as legitimate as these are, and as accountable as Parliament is to

the public. The committee was careful to avoid being populist and

short-term, whilst recognising the need to act in the here and now

to reduce crime.

But there have been other changes too since 1992: Firstly, the

significant advances in restorative justice since 2002 in South

Africa. And what is restorative justice if not quintessentially

African? And who should be better at it than us? Secondly,

government departments and other state structures and NGOs have

developed greater capacity to implement the Bill, and are already

doing so. Its key aspects are being implemented, as the Minister and

Deputy Minister know, on assessments and diversion. In a sense, the
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 43 of 111

Bill is lagging behind current practice and serves little more than

to provide a legislative framework for ad hoc practices that have


Thirdly, indeed there are about 18 000 children being diverted

already. Fourthly, there are now more probation offices and more

secure care facilities. Fifthly, there are progressive changes to

other legislation that impacted on the way we processed ours,

especially the Children‘s Act.

While the state has obvious obligations towards children, it cannot

substitute for the role of parents, who have the primary

responsibility. This principle is expressed in the concept of

parental rights and responsibilities in the Children‘s Act. Clearly,

unless we can re-establish functional families, we cannot solve all

the problems of crime committed by children.

The committee is acutely aware of the capacity and other constraints

of the state to implement the Bill. Various provisions in the Bill

deal precisely with this. The Bill‘s preamble, indeed, acknowledges:

 There are capacity, resource and other constraints on the state,

 which may require a pragmatic and incremental strategy to

 implement the new criminal justice system for children.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 44 of 111

We engaged rigorously with the departments and other state

structures on their capacity to implement the Bill. Indeed, we spent

about 20 hours; 12 hours in closed workshops and eight hours in the

committee. We also put formal questions in writing and got a 43-page

reply in writing from the department.

We undertook study visits, indeed, without pre-warning to the One-

Stop Child Justice Centres and diversion service providers in

Mangaung and Port Elizabeth. May I, by the way, welcome magistrates

Schoeman and Goosen who are in the gallery today. Minister, you will

be interested to know that I heard today that the Mangaung One-Stop

Child Justice Centre has been identified by the United Nations, if

I‘m right, as a role model for such one-stop centres throughout the

world, and I think we should congratulate them for that. [Applause.]

Overall, we feel that while co-ordination among departments

responsible for implementation has improved recently, there is still

some way to go, but we are utterly clear that the departments and

other state structures certainly have the potential to implement the

Bill. Of course, it will be challenging, but what else can we

expect? Our point is that the Bill is only going to be implemented

on 1 April 2010 and it gives the department plenty of time to


Obviously, there are aspects of the Bill that only the state

structure should implement, but there are other aspects that the
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 45 of 111

NGOs could assist with, and are keen to do so. It is important,

however, not to conflate the roles of the state and the NGOs.

Clearly, there is a need for greater co-operation between them, and

the committee effected various amendments to the Bill to ensure

this, and we shall seek to monitor it.

I want to, before I conclude, acknowledge, and the Minister has done

so, the extremely valuable contribution of the department‘s team

which include Advocate Shireen Said, Mr Laurence Basset, Ms

Thandazile Skhozana, Ms Corlia Kok and Mr Hennie Potgieter. Mr

Basset, Minister, the key drafter, as you noticed, in particular,

worked incredibly hard and with considerable patience and is the

quiet hero of this Bill, I must insist. [Applause.] Ms Christine

Silkstone, of the parliamentary Research Unit – a quiet person too -

Minister you don‘t know her, also brought her formidable

intellectual strengths and passion to bear on this Bill.

May I mention that last week when we were sitting in the committee

at about 11 o‘clock one night, her two-and-half-year old boy rang

and said: ―Comrade Carrim, I am from the toddler league of the ANC.‖

He asked: ―Is this not a Bill about child justice?‖ I said yes. And

he said: ―If this is a Bill about child justice why do you have my

mom sitting in committee meetings at 11 o‘clock at night?‖

Moreover, you will be interested to know that he said, when his

mother reads to him at night, she‘s now reading to him things like
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 46 of 111

victim-offender-mediation. She is talking to him about family group

conferencing. And when she sings in the kitchen while cooking with

her partner she actually sings about things like that, so he wanted

to know whether this is not victimising him as a child. The

President, Deputy Minister and heads, I must tell you, historical

materialism doesn‘t always provide the answers for you. So, there we

are! [Laughter.]

We also owe a huge debt of gratitude to Dr Ann Skelton whom I gather

is in the gallery, Dr Jacqui Gallinetti and Ms Dhaksha Kassan from

the Child Justice Alliance for their technical support and their

unremitting passion for and commitment to children. You‘ll have to

accept that on clause 2163, subsection 133(g)(iv), subsection 6, I

still don‘t agree with you about the comma, but you are free to go

to the NCOP to present it to them. [Laughter.]

I also want to thank researcher, Tumisang Bojabotshena, who was

great as was Mr Neil Bell. Last night at 22h30, he was sitting with

me as I went through the draft of the ATC document, so Mr Neil Bell

is outstanding.

We are grateful to our committee secretaries, I hope they are here,

Vhonani Ramaano and Lolly Phumelele Sibisi - I should have mentioned

Lolly first, she will get upset - and Vatiswa and the Department of

Social Development. I want to thank in particular, Conny Nxumalo and

25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 47 of 111

In our committee, Bills are co-chaired and Mr John Jeffery, as a co-

chair brought his considerable political and technical skills, not

to mention his work ethic, to bear on the Bill. Some of his more

innovative ideas, Minister, you‘ll understand, I suspect come from

his partner, Professor P J Schwikkard and possibly his 16-year old

son, David. We are very pleased that JJ derives his genes from his

son because we benefited from them.

I must also thank Mr Steve Swart - he‘s been superb. In fact, it was

very hard, Comrade Deputy President and the ANC, to believe that he

is not our comrade, because of the way in which he acted in the

meeting - I hope his party leader is not listening - as if he was an

ANC comrade. Although, I must tell him that it‘s a bit late for

floor-crossing. It is about to end; mercifully.

But I must also thank Mr Len Joubert, wherever he is, because he was

extremely patient, understanding and kind. Lastly, to the DA, in

particular, I want to say, what strikes us at the end of the day is

that we can have a national interest though we have some differences

on this Bill. Eventually we all say, children matter, our future

matters. [Applause.]

Finally, while the committee regrets the delay in finalising the

Bill, we‘d like to think it served ultimately to produce a better

Bill. Certainly, the Bill is the outcome of considerable

negotiations among a range of stakeholders and there is now
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 48 of 111

substantial consensus on its content between Parliament, the

executive, the NGOs, academic and other experts. The challenge now,

I must stress, is for all of us to work together to implement the

Bill effectively. The committee feels we owe this to the children of

our country and we certainly need to do this to consolidate and

advance our democracy. I reserve my nine seconds, thank you.


Mr L K JOUBERT: Madam Speaker, this Bill has been in Parliament for

six years and its passing is long overdue but, as stated in the

portfolio committee report, the delay served to produce, ultimately

we think, a better Bill.

However, notwithstanding its long tenure in Parliament, it is still

not a perfect Bill. However, the DA will support this Bill

nevertheless, because we believe in the principle that children need

to be treated as children in our justice system and children are not

to be seen in prisons. An imperfect Bill protecting our children is

100% better than no Bill at all.

The interesting fact of this Bill is how all the political parties

concerned, and that is the ruling party, the DA and the ACDP, worked

together, I dare to say in a spirit of ubuntu, with a common

interest and that is to improve the lot of our children. After all,

they are the future; tomorrow belongs to them, but we have the power

to determine their tomorrow to a great extent. To me it showed again
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 49 of 111

that if you have a common interest, the ruling party and the

opposition can work together in the interest of our country and our


Before I address the Bill as such, I would like to make certain

acknowledgements. First I want to also express my appreciation to Mr

Lawrence Bassett and his team of law drafters. Lawrence, I confirm

what I wrote to you on Sunday: We owe you. Having said that, I want

to give you a piece of advice. When I did my articles, I once had to

drew up a will for a client. I took the draft to my principal and he

asked me why I included certain clauses in the will. My reply was

that the client wanted it like that. Then he taught me an important

lesson. He said: Remember you are a lawyer, not a scribe. And I

address this to all our legal draftsmen: Always remember that you

are lawyers, not scribes and you don‘t have to be diplomats either.

I also wish to express a special word of thanks to our two

chairpersons. This Bill, as you heard, was chaired by both the hon

Carrim and the hon J H Jeffery. The opposition was at a great

disadvantage during the final stages of this Bill as I had a medical

condition and my senior counsel, Dr Delport, was also on sick leave

for most of the time. Nevertheless, they – these two chairpersons -

did everything in their power to keep me on board and I want to note

my appreciation for their professional approach in this regard.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 50 of 111

Those who know me will have realised that all these nice words were

to lay the table for something else. That something else concerns

the preamble to this Bill. Before coming to the point, I want to

express my appreciation for the efforts to accommodate my concerns

in this regard, which are contained in the committee‘s report.

Without wishing to create the impression that I am ungrateful for

these concessions, I want to avail myself of this opportunity to

explain the sensitivity we have in this regard.

This Bill, as Mr Carrim said, will only come into effect in 2010.

That is 20 years after apartheid was abolished, which means that no

person born during the apartheid era will be affected by this Bill.

However, the preamble refers to the position before 1994 and

although I am keenly aware of the wrongs of the past, it belongs to

the past. As a South African whose family tree goes back more than

three hundred years in this country, I obviously also have scars.

The oldest scar is that of my forefathers who came to this country

as religious refugees and had to abandon everything they had and

flee for their lives, leaving pots on the stove. They again lost

everything during the Anglo Boer War. We paid a further price

because my family did not support the National Party.

I have reconciled all this because I believe that if you keep

looking at the past you have your back to the future. Why then refer

to the past in a Bill that concerns our children? When will today

and tomorrow become more important than yesterday?
25 JUNE 2008                               PAGE: 51 of 111

More importantly, if we really want to make this wonderful country

work, we must only take from the past that that will make the future

better for all. Let us leave the history out of legislation and

leave it to the historians. Let us lawmakers learn from the past but

rather concern ourselves with the future. I thank you.

Mrs S A SEATON: Madam Speaker, today's debate on the Child Justice

Bill represents a milestone in the development of the South African

criminal justice system as it, for the first time, provides specific

legislation for procedures to deal with children who have come into

conflict with the law.

The underlying principles to the Bill are found in section 28 of the

Constitution which states, inter alia, that ―a child's best

interests are of paramount importance in every matter concerning the

child‘‘ and, more specifically, that children should only be

detained as a measure of last resort and then separate from

prisoners older than 18.

The Child Justice Bill provides the legislative framework for the

special protection of children who have come into conflict with the

law. The Bill also gives effect to the requirement that South

Africa's accession to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of

the Child, and the African Charter on the Rights and Welfare of the

Child, must be taken up in our domestic law.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 52 of 111

Madam Speaker, the Bill has been in the making – I disagree with Mr

Joubert, it is actually been in the making for some ten years, with

the first steps taken as far back as May 1997. Although it has taken

a long time, the IFP shared the view of a leading criminologist who

said: It is better to have a Bill, than no Bill at all.

The main objective of the Bill is to provide alternatives to the

incarceration of the children who committed less serious criminal

offences. The Bill sets the age of 10 as the minimum age for

prosecution, while retaining the common law presumption of

incapacity for children under the age of 14.

Some of the alternative sentences envisaged by the Bill include:

community-based sentences, including rehabilitative diversion;

restorative justice sentences; correctional supervision; residential

requirement sentences; and residential facility sentences.

I would like to concentrate on two of these alternatives - diversion

and restorative justice. According to the Child Justice Alliance,

diversion is the practice of referring a child away from formal

court procedures at any stage in the criminal justice process. It is

not a soft option, but seeks to change the child's pattern of

behaviour so that he or she understands the impact of their crime on

the community.
25 JUNE 2008                               PAGE: 53 of 111

Restorative justice is not a new concept in South Africa, and can be

described as uniquely African as it encapsulates some of the

principles of ubuntu. These include actions such as an apology,

restitution and reparation. Overall, the main objective of

restorative justice is to allow the offender to rejoin the community

and to prevent them from reoffending.

The IFP supports the Child Justice Bill. It provides legal certainty

for dealing with children who have come into conflict with the law,

and provides them with a second chance in life, while at the same

time enabling them to take responsibility for their actions without

having been incarcerated and exposed to hardened criminals which

sometimes can lead to a life of crime and not rehabilitation. As Mr

Carrim, the hon Carrim, said, the importance of the child is the

most important thing. We all believe that our children are important

– to ourselves, to South Africa – and this is a step in the right

direction. I thank you.

Mnr I E JENNER: Agb Speaker, die OD bring vandag hulde aan die

menigte kinderslagoffers wat   gesterf het as gevolg van gruwelike

moorde, verkragtings en ontvoerings, en dit ten aanskoue van

familie, vriende en kennisse. Sommiges se dood is steeds

onbeantwoord en dit het ‘n ewige letsel op baie gemeenskappe gelaat.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 54 of 111

Die langverwagte wetsontwerp oor kindergeregtigheid bring vandag

troos in die harte van die menigtes wat deur hierdie gruweldade en

misdadige vergrype teenoor kinders geraak is.

Hierdie deeglike wetgewing het egter ‘n baie groot uitdaging,

naamlik die effektiewe inwerkingstelling daarvan. Die uiters

gebalanseerde wetgewing vereis ook kollektiewe verantwoordelikheid

om sukses te bewerkstellig.

In my eie ervaring as ‘n korrektiewe beampte en projekbestuurder by

‘n jeugsentrum het ek gesien hoe baie jeugoortreders misbruik word

in plekke van aanhouding, maar ook hoe hulle ontaard in die

gehardste misdadigers wat in die meeste gevalle onverskillig en

vreesloos opereer.

Die feit dat die konsep van ―restorative justice‖ as ‘n fundamentele

aspek van die herstel, deurlopend in die wetsontwerp manifesteer,

bring nuwe hoop en verdiep ons swaarverdiende demokrasie.

―Restorative justice‖ poog om die oortreder en sy onmiddellike

familie, die slagoffer en sy onmiddellike familie asook die

gemeenskap medeverantwoordelik en verantwoordbaar te maak vir die

herstel, versoening en hertoelating ná vonnisoplegging.

Vir die eerste keer is daar ‘n meganisme wat verhoed dat kinder- en

jeugoortreders blootgestel word aan ‘n omgewing belaai met

kriminaliteit en die wreedheid wat daarmee gepaard gaan.
25 JUNE 2008                                 PAGE: 55 of 111

Die wetsontwerp bring ook ‘n einde aan die praktyk om jeugdiges te

misbruik by misdaadpleging in die wete dat hulle ‘n ligter straf sal

ontvang. Die geskiedenis word vandag herskryf omdat hierdie

wetgewing in Jeugmaand goedgekeur word, want dit bevestig dat ‘n

gesonde jeug ‘n gesonde samelewing tot gevolg kan hê.

Die OD steun die wetgewing en bedank alle rolspelers, ministeries,

departemente, die portefeuljekomitee, nie-regeringsorganisasies

asook die openbare samelewing wat ‘n bydrae gelewer het tot die

samestelling van die wetgewing.

Suid-Afrika kan dus die droom van wyle Ingrid Jonker laat voortleef,

―Die kind wat net in die son wou speel ... die kind is nie dood

nie‖. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr I E JENNER: Hon Speaker, the ID today salutes the many child

victims who have died as a result of brutal murders, rapes and

abductions, and that in the presence of family, friends and

acquaintances. Some of these murders are still unsolved and it has

left a permanent scar on many communities.

The long-awaited Bill on child justice today brings comfort to the

hearts of the many who were affected by these abominable deeds and

criminal transgressions against children.

This thorough piece of legislation, however, faces a major

challenge, namely the effective implementation thereof. In addition,
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 56 of 111

this extremely balanced legislation requires collective

responsibility to achieve success.

In my experience as a correctional services officer and project

manager at a youth centre, I have not only witnessed the abuse of

many juveniles in places of detention, but also how they degenerated

into the most hardened criminals who, in most cases, operate with

indifference and fearlessness.

The fact that the concept of restorative justice, as a fundamental

aspect of the rehabilitation, manifests itself throughout the Bill

brings new hope and deepens our hard-earned democracy. Restorative

justice strives to make the offender and his immediate family, the

victim and his immediate family as well as the community, co-

responsible and answerable for the rehabilitation, reconciliation

and readmission after sentencing.

For the first time there is now a mechanism that prevents child

offenders and juvenile delinquents from being exposed to an

environment fraught with criminality and the brutality that goes

with it.

The Bill also brings to an end the practice of using juveniles to

commit criminal deeds knowing that they would receive a lighter

sentence. History is being rewritten today as this legislation is
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 57 of 111

being passed in Youth Month, thereby affirming that a healthy youth

could lead to a healthy society.

The ID supports the legislation and would like to thank all the

role-players, ministries, departments, the portfolio committee, non-

governmental organisations as well as the public who made a

contribution in the composition of the legislation.

South Africa can therefore let the dream of the late Ingrid Jonker

be remembered, ―Die kind wat net in die son wou speel ... die kind

is nie dood nie‖. I thank you.]

Mr J B SIBANYONI: Madam Speaker, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers,

hon Members of Parliament, I would like to start off by joining the

committee‘s chairperson in welcoming the Magistrate of Bloemfontein

in Mangaung, Mr Schoeman, as well as the Magistrate of Port

Elizabeth, Mr Goosen. [Applause.]

When our committee was initially debating this Bill or talking about

it, there were some doubts as to whether there is capacity on the

ground to implement it, if passed. However, after visiting these two

one-stop justice centres, our committee has confidence that in fact,

there is hope. We also want to congratulate Mangaung on winning a

25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 58 of 111

The debate takes place not only during the Youth Month, but also on

Youth Parliament day, an event during which the youth of this

country gathers here at Parliament to debate issues affecting them.

We are debating a piece of legislation that brings major changes in

the criminal judicial system concerning children in conflict with

the law. It is a piece of legislation that embraces the values of

ubuntu, which is similar to, but a little bit wider than humanity.

Kunesitjho sesikhethu esithi ‗umuntu mumuntu ngabantu‘. Lesi sitjho

sisithola eentjhabeni ezinengi zange-Africa. Abanye bathi ‗motho ke

motho ka batho‘. Abanye ubezwe besithi ‗umntu ngumntu ngabantu‘.

UmThethomlingwa lo uletha indlela yokuba abantwana abatjhayisana

nomthetho bangasegiswa ngendlela ekusegiswa ngayo abantu abadala

namkha iinlelesi zakadeni – sithoma ngokubotjhwa komntwana.

UmThethomlingwa lo uthi akukafanele bonyana umntwana nakabotjhwako

athuthwe ngesikhwelo sinye nabantu abadala ngambana bazamtlhorisa

ngeendlela ezinengi, njengokuthi umntwana lo angenziwa umalokazana.

Nangaphandle kwalokho, bazamfundisa ubulelesi obuphala namkha

obudlula lobu abotjhelwe bona. Alo-ke umThethomlingwa lo uthi

abantwana kufanele bavikeleke bangavezwa ezintweni ezingabona

ukuyaphambili. (Translation of isiNdebele paragraphs follows.)

[We have a saying that says: a person is a person because of other

people. This saying is also used by many African nations. Some say
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 59 of 111

‗motho ke motho ka batho‘. You will hear others saying: ‗umntu

ngumntu ngabantu‘. This Bill seeks to provide that children who are

in conflict with the law should not be prosecuted the same way as

adults or older criminals – starting with the arrest of a child.

This Bill states that it is not correct for a child who has been

arrested to be transported in the same vehicle as old offenders,

because they can abuse him in many ways, for example sexual abuse.

Apart from that, they will teach him other ways of committing crime

that is more serious than what he has been arrested for. Therefore

this Bill states that children should be protected and not be

exposed to things that can destroy them further.]

Some people might think that treating child offenders more humanely

than adult offenders is an indication of being soft on crime; but

that is not so.

Kunesinye godu isitjho esithi ‗umntwana wami muntwana wakho

nomntwana wakho muntwana wami‘. [Again there is another saying that

says: My child is your child and your child is my child.]

In the traditional African way of life, parents and the community at

large co-operate in bringing up children, which includes their

discipline, hence the saying: ―Your child is my child; My child is

your child.‖ As a member of the community, you are expected to
25 JUNE 2008                                 PAGE: 60 of 111

reprimand any child you come across doing something wrong. In the

past, it included reasonable chastisement.

The Bill, as it stands, has elements of restorative justice. For

instance, if a child is arrested for assaulting another child, the

offender‘s parents and the victims‘ will be invited to take part in

discussions aimed at resolving the matter, if it can be resolved.

Thus the views of the victims would be considered in diversion and

sentencing. The offending child may be persuaded to apologise or

make good the wrong he or she has done.

When a person has done something wrong and some action needs to be

taken against that person, in isiZulu it is said: Uqondiswa

izigwegwe [correcting the wrong]; it is not punishment or discipline

the way we understand it, but rather to correct that person. We are

going back to our roots in terms of this Bill.

The ANC national conference in Stellenbosch declared that the ANC

should be a champion for the rights of children, especially the

girl-child. The conference further committed to strengthening the

criminal justice system to protect children and prevent abuse.

The Child Justice Bill strikes a balance between protecting children

in conflict with the law and protecting the victims of crime

committed by children. The Bill also balances the interest of the

child with the interest of justice.
25 JUNE 2008                               PAGE: 61 of 111

The Bill has provisions to deal with child offenders in such a way

that the child offender accepts that he or she has done wrong. This

will prevent any possibility of reoffending. The ANC supports this

Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr S N SWART: Madam Speaker, I firstly want to thank the justice

portfolio committee chairperson and the Whip for the extra time and

also for your kind words. My thanks also go to all the officials

involved led by Lawrence Basset and the nongovernmental

organisations who helped us, led by Dr Ann Skelton and others, who

assisted us during the drafting process.

Back in the year 2000, I was proud enough to represent our country

in addressing an ancillary meeting of the United Nations Crime

Conference in Vienna on the notion of restorative justice and the

Child Justice Bill. It is thus quite emotional to address this House

and to participate in this debate today. The Bill at that stage was

undoubtedly pioneering worldwide in criminal justice reform.

Regrettably, it has taken a number of years to finalise it and, in a

certain sense, practice has bypassed us with the restorative justice

principle being applied in practice and some 18 000 children already

being diverted annually. Members will recall that I have raised the

issue of the outstanding Child Justice Bill in numerous debates and

during Budget Votes and that I regret the delay. However, I do

believe that we now have a much improved Bill.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 62 of 111

It is also quite emotional as we are all aware of the appalling

conditions in our prisons. Hon Deputy Minister, you will remember

that when we went to Port Elizabeth and we visited the juvenile

section, there was that youngster who was about 14 years of age and

he said to us, ―Die kinders was stout met my.‖ [The children were

naughty with me.], obviously indicating that he had been sexually

abused or raped in that prison. And we need to state this

categorically, that, as far as possible and bearing in mind the

safety of communities in society, children should not be kept in

prisons where they will in all likelihood be abused and sodomised

into a lifetime of crime in what has been referred to as the

universities of crime.

The restorative justice and diversion approach for children in

conflict with the law seeks to avoid this whilst ensuring that

community safety is not compromised. This is an important aspect and

the Bill recognises the present reality of high crime rates and

adopts a proactive approach to crime prevention by placing increased

emphasis on the effective rehabilitation and integration of

children. This is to be achieved by encouraging child offenders to

accept responsibility for the crime committed and to make amends for

the harm caused, and this is the essence of the restorative justice

approach. Diversion, we believe, would minimise the potential for

re-offending and break the cycle of crime. It balances the interests

of children on one hand and those of society with due regard to the

rights of victims.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 63 of 111

With the high crime rate, what may seem to be a desire for

retribution is often actually a concern for public safety. We

believe that, at the very least, this Child Justice Bill will

potentially deliver at least as much public safety as the present

system. Therein lies the appeal to us as lawmakers grappling with

the demands of society for safer streets. The Bill provides special

treatment for children in conflict with the law in a system that is

designed to break the cycle of crime. It will thus contribute to

safer communities and encourage children to become law-abiding and

productive adults. The diversion programmes presently offered by the

National Institute for Crime Prevention and Reintegration of

Offenders and other NGOs have a remarkable success rate with a very

low rate of re-offending. Whilst the high crime rate does

understandably result in a cry for retribution, the point about a

retributive system is that you deal with a state and, at the end of

the day, the victim is left angry and bitter, maybe with some

feelings of vengeance satisfied whilst the child offender goes off

to prison to learn new tricks.

Restorative justice is a victim-directed approach to crime

prevention and the Bill seeks to include victims in crime diversion

processes by means of restitution, consultation on diversion

programmes, victim-impact statements as well as in victim-offender

mediation. So the appeal of this model is the acceptance of blame by

the offender and the recognition of the need to address the harm

25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 64 of 111

Unfortunately, this has not been the traditional approach where, in

our criminal justice system, the offender seeks to evade

accountability and the legal system has, to a large degree,

degenerated into a contest between the state and defence lawyers to

establish guilt or to obtain acquittal. Retributive justice is a

form of criminal justice based on the response to crime primarily by

punishing offenders, yet virtually, as I indicated, ignores the

victims and communities hurt by crime.

Now, a well-known Judge from New Zealand who has pioneered

restorative justice holds the view that restorative justice offers

to the world the healing power of repentance and forgiveness, of

justice with mercy, of God‘s love for all people. These are ideals,

he says, in which all people can share. If there is to be true

accountability in the community, it is time we breathe the spirit of


We as the ACDP have no delusions about the magnitude of the task

facing us in the light of the high crime rate but submit that

restorative justice will play a fundamental role in providing

opportunities for active personal participation by the victim, the

offender and their communities in responding to crime. We wish to

make it very clear that adults who think that they can use children

to commit offences, hoping that such children will be diverted, will

be prosecuted under section 9 of this Bill read with the provisions

of the Children‘s Act.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 65 of 111

In conclusion, it would be apposite to conclude by referring to the

Prophet Micah who asked, ―What is it that God desired of His

people?‖ He said, ―He has showed you, oh man, what is good. And what

does the Lord require of you? To act justly, to love mercy and to

walk humbly with your God.‖ And we as the ACDP respectfully submit

that restorative justice satisfies this injunction. The key to

success for this Bill is that the public feels safe from child

offenders. The victim is involved and possibly compensated and the

child offender has a change of heart, leading to a new life. The

ACDP will support this Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms S RAJBALLY: Madam Deputy Speaker, one of the most highlighted

concerns since the turn to democracy in 1996 has been the protection

of women and children. Our democracy brought to the fore a number of

serious abuses and the reality of the children of South Africa and

it was bleak.

The national Constitution and the Bill of Rights introduced rights

that will certainly shape up human living, dignity and equality.

However, it is the long awaited Child Justice Bill that will deal

with and address the needs of our children. The courts of South

Africa have always upheld that, in all matters pertaining to

children, it is the best interests of the child that is the court‘s

primary concern and interest. It insists that all shall persuade the

court‘s decision. The Child Justice Bill serves to bring so much
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 66 of 111

more stability to and fill so many loopholes regarding the wellbeing

of the child.

In the overpopulated province of KwaZulu-Natal, poverty is one of

the greatest challenges and there are many child-headed households,

which means that children are being deprived of education and there

are many unfortunate reports of children in rural areas who are

being made to labour under harsh conditions.

The awareness of children‘s rights needs to be taken to the end of

the earth, and our communities need to be educated on how to rear

and develop the children of our country without infringing on the

rights and the dignity of the child. We need to intensify the

responsibility of parents towards their children. Neglect and abuse

are too common and the rights of children are being exploited.

The MF hopes that the Child Justice Bill will not only create a

greater awareness of the rights of children but also instil a

greater sense of responsibility in parents, guardians and

communities towards the children of South Africa. Let us all protect

all our children, even if they are not ours. As we can remember, hon

Sibanyoni just said, ―Your child is my child; my child is your

25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 67 of 111

Ingane yakho ingane yami, ingane yami ingane yakho. Masikukhumbule

lokhu. Siyabonga. [Your child is my child, my child is your child.

We must remember this. Thank you.]

The MF supports the Child Justice Bill. Thank you, Madam Deputy

Speaker. [Applause.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order. It has

nothing to do with the previous speaker; it has to do with a certain

hon member, Martin Stephens of the DA, who finds himself remarkably

comfortable on the ANC benches.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon member. Please take your seat.

Mr M J ELLIS: I was rather hoping, Madam Deputy Speaker, that you

would tell him to come back to the DA where he belongs.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I didn‘t take him there in the first place!

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy, this is a very serious point of order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: From where you are seated, you have a problem,

but don‘t make your problem my problem.

Mr M J ELLIS: Look how comfortable he looks.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 68 of 111

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is your problem, Sir. Will you please sit

down? I am asking you for the last time and very seriously so. Sit

down or take the afternoon off.

Ms C B JOHNSON: Madam Deputy Speaker and hon Ellis, it is very

comfortable in the ANC benches.

The justice committee has processed many important pieces of

legislation during this third term and this third democratic

Parliament, but I would argue that this Bill before the House today

is, possibly, one of the most important and difficult pieces of

legislation that we have had to deal with. It raised many issues

which we really had to grapple with and we had to take some really

tough decisions.

The aim of the Bill is to prevent children who are in conflict with

the law from growing up and becoming adults in conflict with the

law. It brings about many important changes in the way children in

conflict with the law are to be treated. We need to remember that

when we deal with these children, they are after all still children.

Before they are sentenced by a competent court, they are innocent

until proven guilty. Therefore, we need to put measures in place

when we deal with children.

The Bill contains new and innovative developments, the first being

assessment. The assessment process is where a probation officer will
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 69 of 111

assess each and every child for the purpose of establishing whether

the child is in need of care and protection; will estimate the age

of the child if the age is uncertain, and will make recommendations

as to whether the child should be released or be detained in custody

while awaiting trial, and also establish the possibility of

diversion. Diversion is something that the hon Jeffery will deal

with more fully. All children who will have to attend a preliminary

inquiry will be assessed.

The second new development is the preliminary inquiry, which is an

informal pre-trial procedure. It aims to look at the child

holistically, at his or her personal circumstances, at the offence

that he or she was alleged to have committed, and to place all of

this before a court. Usually, these preliminary inquiries are

attended by the child, the child‘s parents, the prosecutor and the

probation officer to get a sense of the specific circumstances

surrounding that child.

The third important change we‘ve made is that we‘ve raised the

minimum age of criminal capacity from the age of seven to the age of

ten. This means that a child who commits an offence under the age of

ten will not have criminal capacity and, therefore, can never be

prosecuted for that offence. There was a lot of debate in the

committee about this issue. People felt very strongly about it; some

argued for ten years and others for the age of 12. The tough

question that we had to face was: At what age are children able to
25 JUNE 2008                                 PAGE: 70 of 111

appreciate the difference between right and wrong, and act


Many of the submissions suggested the age of 12, but the committee

felt that we should first increase it to the age of ten. We then

inserted a clause to say that the Minister for Justice and

Constitutional Development must, within five years, review the age

of criminal capacity with a view to whether or not it should be

raised to 12 years or remain at ten years.

When the police, therefore, have reason to believe that a child

under the age of ten has committed a crime, they may not arrest that

child but have to take the child and immediately hand the child over

to the parent or an appropriate adult or, if the parent cannot be

found or if indeed it is the parent who is neglecting or abusing the

child, hand the child over to a child and youth care centre because

the child may very well be in need of care.

With regards to children between 10 and 14 years, they are presumed

to lack criminal capacity until the state can prove beyond a

reasonable doubt that the child could appreciate the difference

between right and wrong and could act in accordance therewith.

Finally, the Bill puts important measures in place to deal with the

release or detention of children awaiting trial. Time does not

permit me to go to into detail but, as a general principle, where a
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 71 of 111

decision is made that the child must be detained awaiting trial,

then preference must be given to the least restrictive option in the

circumstances. In other words, one would rather place a child in a

suitable youth and child care centre before placing a child in

prison or a police cell.

Where a child is held in detention, the child must be kept separate

from adults and must be treated in a way that takes account of the

child‘s age and special needs. And adequate food, water, blankets

and bedding must be provided and when there has been an injury or

illness or trauma, then immediate health care must be provided to

the child.

The hon Bloem has raised with this House, not once but many times,

the issue of children awaiting trial who are in custody where either

the parents cannot be found or are simply too poor to pay the bail.

Hon Bloem, we‘ve taken care of that for you in the Bill. We‘ve

looked at the matter. [Applause.]

To conclude, with regards to the detention, a lot depends on the

secure care centres that we have in the country at the moment. These

centres are crucial to the long-term success of this Bill. At the

ANC‘s 52nd National Conference, the resolutions state that, with

regard to children in conflict with the law, the secure care centres

must be capacitated and the establishment of additional such centres

must be accelerated. The committee was, therefore, pleased to note
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 72 of 111

that the Department of Social Development has already established 30

of these centres across the country, and has budgeted and planned

for a further 20.

There is a saying that we worry so much about what a child will

become tomorrow that we forget that he or she is someone today. I do

believe that this Bill acknowledges that if we act in the best

interests of our children today, then hopefully they will become

responsible and law-abiding adults tomorrow.

I want to express my sincere gratitude to everybody who took part in

the processing of this Bill. It is, really, a very good Bill. I am

pleased and privileged to support this Bill on behalf of the ANC.

Thank you. [Applause.]

Dr S E M PHEKO: Madam Deputy Speaker, the Child Justice Bill is a

very important piece of legislation for our nation. The children of

our country are our future. They are the foundation for our

continued existence as a nation. They are an indispensable national

resource. The success of this nation will depend on how we care for

our children in terms of their health, and their education to make

them knowledgeable and skilled citizens who can make a rich

contribution to the national development of our country and

25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 73 of 111

These days, we see much juvenile delinquency caused by drugs and

other influences. It is important to come up with a Child Justice

Bill such as this one. Many children have certainly found themselves

in conflict with the law and consequently in prison. Many prisons

that one visits these days are crowded with young people. I have

personally visited many such prisons. In one prison, I was struck by

the choirs. When these youngsters sing hymns, you can‘t believe that

you are in prison. You would think that you are in a church engaged

in a very deep spiritual revival.

This Bill, among other things, provides for the minimum age of the

criminal capacity of children. It deals with children who lack

criminal capacity outside the criminal justice system. It has

special provisions for securing attendance in courts and the release

from detention and the placement of children. Due to the lack of

such a law, many children have not been properly placed, and they

have sometimes been mixed with hardened criminals. This is despite

the fact that the Constitution is based on democratic values, social

and economic justice, equality and fundamental human rights to

improve the quality of life of all its people, and to free the

potential of every person for all possible things.

The Bill is supported by the PAC. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr L M GREEN: Deputy Speaker, hon Minister and members, it is of

benefit to our society that children of crime have laws that afford
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 74 of 111

them the opportunity to embark on a process towards full


The Child Justice Bill spells out the just procedures best suited

for a child criminal. The Bill aims to distinguish between child and

adult criminals and to achieve the right balance of treatment so

that the child is not treated more severely than its adult


A key object of the Bill is to break the cycle of crime amongst our

youth. The FD endorses the provision that the de facto minimum age

for a child to presume to lack criminal capacity is established

under the age of 10. The procedures are provided for and the

obligation is placed upon the state to prove criminal capacity of

the child over the age of 10 but less than 14 years old.

Society has an obligation, as far as possible, to protect the

child‘s growth. Although being exposed to a bad world, they must not

be unduly influenced or forced to engage in criminal practices. We

live in an imperfect world, but children need not be grouped with

those who have the capacity to account for their actions. As such,

the provisions spelling out procedures around diversion create just

treatment to the child offender. Ours is still a traditional society

that needs education about the impact of diversion on social

institutes. Society will need to be educated that children can mend

their ways given the right frames of reference and resources.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 75 of 111

The legislation, to be effective, must operate within a caring

society, and unless we have reached that stage, restorative justice

of the child is likely to be challenged. However, the FD believes

that the legislation sets the right principles and standards to call

society to help in the rehabilitation of the child. Therefore, the

FD wholeheartedly supports this Bill. I thank you.

Mr J H JEFFERY: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon members, it goes without

saying that we have a problem of crime in South Africa, but who are

these criminals and where do they come from? Are they members of an

alien race, either from a distant land or even a distant planet, who

have come to live among us, but are completely dissimilar from us,

having an entirely different origin, background, likes and dislikes?

No, they are from among us, from among our communities. We know many

of them, or at least their mothers and fathers, brothers and

sisters, cousins, etc. Where did they come from? They probably

started as petty criminals when they were much younger, as pick-

pockets, housebreakers, bag snatchers and then graduated to more

serious crimes such as armed robbery, car hijacking and murder.

One of the issues that we need to address is that most of the

criminals committing serious crimes today were probably child

offenders once and that many of the child offenders sitting in our

prisons will end up becoming serious criminals. What do we do with

the child offenders? Do we simply lock them up and throw away the

key so they can‘t come back and victimise anyone ever again?
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 76 of 111

The facts are that South Africa has one of the largest prison

populations in the world; the sixth largest in fact. According to

the Judicial Inspectorate of Prisons, we have 348 prisoners for

every 100 000 people. This is one of the highest in the world.

Researchers say that South Africa relies on prison as a penalty far

more uniformly than other democracies, but a further problem with

stays in prison, according to researchers, is that they increase

rather than decrease the chances of a person returning once

released. This even applies to short stays. The figures are that

approximately 60% to 70% of prisoners commit offences again. So the

fact that we throw our criminals into prison doesn‘t seem to have an

impact on crime. What the Child Justice Bill is endeavouring to do

is to focus on the rehabilitation of the child offender, turning

them into responsible adults who will not reoffend, as opposed to

simply locking them up and throwing away the key.

Diversion, as other members have mentioned, is therefore an

essential element of the Bill. Diversion is basically saying to a

child: If you admit that you did it, and that you were wrong,

instead of being prosecuted and appearing in court and having all

the evidence heard at the trial, you can go on a programme aimed at

rehabilitating you. And if you complete this programme you won‘t be

prosecuted and you won‘t have a criminal record. You will be given a

second chance.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 77 of 111

Some of the objectives of diversion are, and these are contained in

clause 51 of the Bill: To encourage the child to be accountable for

the harm caused; to promote the reintegration of the child into his

or her family or community; to provide those affected by the harm an

opportunity to express their views on its impact on them; to

encourage the rendering to the victim of some symbolic benefit or

the delivery of some object as compensation; to promote the dignity

and wellbeing of the child and the development of his or her self-

worth and ability to contribute to society.

Diversion has been around for some time. Research shows that the

percentage of reoffending of children who have completed these

diversion programmes is low. According to the National Institute for

Crime Prevention and Rehabilitation of Offenders, Nicro, who run

most of the diversion programmes, of the 60 791 children

accommodated in diversion programmes from April 2004 to December

2007, only 7% of children had records of previously being diverted

for other criminal charges.

This Bill provides a legislative framework for diversion and as it

is new, it is something that we will need to review after it has

been implemented for a while. One of the big debates during our

deliberations on the Bill was whether all offenders, even the

serious cases, should be considered for diversion. At the moment any

case can be considered for diversion in terms of guidelines set by
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 78 of 111

the National Director of Public Prosecutions. After considerable

deliberations we felt that this should continue.

We, however, felt that serious cases should not be diverted, but

there may be circumstances where you are unlikely to succeed as a

trial and where diverting the accused may be something that is

appropriate. We, however, set more stringent criteria. With regards

to the serious cases, only the Provincial Director of Public

Prosecutions can indicate that a case may be considered for

diversion and only for exceptional cases and only after consulting

the police investigating officers to hear their views and then there

is also provision for listening to the views of the victim.

This doesn‘t mean that all cases should be diverted. It is an option

that can be considered. With regard to minor cases, the decision on

diversion would be taken by the prosecutor and for the more serious

ones the decision would be taken by the preliminary inquiry

magistrate after considering a number of factors. When it comes to

sentencing, in other words where the child is found guilty and needs

to be punished, the Bill does not follow the approach of ―lock them

up and throw away the key‖. The object of sentencing, and these are

contained in clause 69 of the Bill, are to encourage the child to

understand the implications of and be accountable for the harm

caused; to promote an individualised response, which strikes a

balance between the circumstances of the child, the nature of the

offence and the interests of society; to promote the reintegration
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 79 of 111

of the child into the family and community; and to use imprisonment

as a measure of last resort and only for the shortest appropriate

period of time.

Before deciding on the punishment a court can consider a victim

impact statement, which is a statement by the victim which indicates

the consequences of the crime on them. This gives the court and the

child offender an opportunity to hear from the victim themselves.

For the more serious offences a pre-sentencing report must be

submitted, which is a report on the child and the types of sentences

that would be appropriate for him or her, prepared by a probation


The Bill then outlines a range of possible sentences. They can

include community-based sentences, which are sentences that involve

a child remaining in the community, and undergoing a programme in

that community. There are restorative justice sentences, involving

participation of the victim. And then, for the more serious cases,

there are sentences of compulsory residence in a child and youth

care centre or a reform school, or ultimately there is still

imprisonment in prison.

The Bill does not encourage fines as a punishment, because

invariably it will be the parents who pay and not the child. Instead

it may look at symbolic restitution where the child, instead of a

fine, provides a service or benefit or payment of compensation. We
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 80 of 111

have specifically banned children under 14 years of age from being

sentenced to imprisonment, because we did not feel that prison is an

appropriate place for a child under 14. Someone once put it, ―What

chance does an under 14 year old have if they are sentenced to

prison?‖ The answer is probably: No chance. And they will be a

danger to society for the rest of their lives, which, if they had to

live to 70, would be another 57 years. This doesn‘t mean that

children under 14 walk free. They can serve a sentence in a child

and youth care facility, as I already mentioned, and we have

provided that if the case is very serious they can be sentenced to

serve time in prison when they are a bit older, but a court will

have to look at how they performed in the child and youth care

centre and we will revisit the sentence of imprisonment if


We have limited it to children under 14 at the time of sentencing,

not the time of commission of the offence, because our intention is

clearly that prison is not a place that a child under 14 is equipped

or able to handle. In the case where the trial of an under-14-year-

old is being delayed so that the child is now over 14 and would have

been under 14 at the time of sentencing if it had gone faster, I am

sure the presiding officer will take into account that the child

could not have been sentenced to jail had the trial been completed

25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 81 of 111

We are saying no under-14-year-olds in prison, we are not saying

over 14 year olds automatically go to prison. This in an area that,

I am sure, discussed was a lot and it is an area that can be further

debated. Children over the age of 14 can be sentenced to

imprisonment, but the Bill limits it to very serious cases.

There are then two additional points I want to make in closing. The

Bill is quite detailed. Some would feel too detailed as far as the

steps that officials - and that is police officers, prosecutors,

magistrates and judges - must take. This is because, while you have

a number of officials in our justice system who are committed to the

interest of justice, while at the same time considering the child as

a human being, there are unfortunately a few others who simply are

just not able to think. These are the people who order a child to be

held in prison for stealing a loaf of bread on the one hand, and on

the other hand releasing dangerous criminals on bail when there are

strong cases against them. For these officials, unfortunately, we‘ve

had to spell things out.

The other point I want to make is an appeal to us here and to

society at large that the dangerous criminals in our society, those

who rob and kill and rape, are not aliens from a distant land or

planet but are from among us. They are some mother‘s son or

daughter, as the case may be, and they were once children, whether

in trouble with the law or just generally troubled.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 82 of 111

Two hon members have made reference to a saying ―Umntana wakho

ngumntana wam; umntana wam ngumntana wakho.‖ Your child is my child;

my child is your child. [Applause.] Let‘s take this saying to heart.

Let us mentor our youth, let us give them guidance, let us be there

for them when they make mistakes, as all humans do, and children

should be able to make more mistakes. Let us show them the right


The hon chair of the committee, the hon Y I Carrim, has thanked all

the officials for their hard work on this Bill - I don‘t really have

time to repeat it – and the representatives of the nongovernmental

organisations who also participated. I think what he left out was

himself and I‘d like to thank him. [Applause.] That is, the hon Mr Y

I Carrim, for his commitment to the task at hand, his energy, his

inclusivity and his innovation. I think he is a prime example of

parliamentary best practice when it comes to chairing committees. I

thank you. [Applause.]


of the portfolio committee, I would want you to consider taking me

to lunch because I‘m the one who influenced the hon member who has

just spoken. I actually wrote that part for him. [Laughter.] Mine is

a simple task now. At the time I was introducing the Bill, I was

extending my thanks also to the previous chairperson of our

portfolio committee, the hon Fatima Chohan, because she also

contributed to the discussions around the Bill at the time that she
25 JUNE 2008                               PAGE: 83 of 111

was chairing.   But I also want to say thank you to the Child Justice


I must salute some of the members in particular of the NGO

community, whom I recall working with in the early 1990s and we were

discussing the very concept of the Child Justice Bill. I here would

like to just single out Dr Ann Skelton. By the way, I got

intermittent briefings about the robust discussions that were

happening at the portfolio committee. I think mine is simply to say:

Keep up the good work. This is just the beginning. Once the Bill is

passed into law, we should make sure that it is implemented not only

implementable. I do think that the challenge does remain. On our

part, as the executive, we commit ourselves to putting this as a

priority of the JCPS cluster because, indeed, government is mindful

of the importance of child care and development. In fact, I would

venture to say that this Bill completes the policy circle - the

circle of a comprehensive policy on child care and development. We

thus commit to making sure that all of us, Parliament, the executive

and the NGOs are in partnership for the good of the child so that we

make this a reality. To those committees that have to be set up

within government, we have to consider how that can be effectively

done – not tomorrow but today. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 84 of 111





Mr J P CRONIN: Deputy Speaker, the focus of the oversight work of

the Portfolio Committee on Transport over the last year and a half

has largely been on public transport preparations for the year 2010.

I think members will be well aware that Cabinet has set up the key

legacy that we want to derive from hosting the 2010 event and that

is a decent legacy of public transport. I think we all recognise

that public transport in South Africa is neither good nor effective.

Now, if we are to get this legacy right - in other words if we are

to derive a public transport legacy from hosting 2010 - then the

planning at city level, in terms of the host cities, needs to be

completed already. The funding flow needs to be moving very

effectively, and indeed we need to see the beginnings of significant

implementation. It should also be noted that the President of the

country in two state of the nation addresses in recent years, has

mentioned bus transit systems as key elements of this public

transport legacy that we want to see in South Africa.

The Minister of Finance has also indicated the commitment of the

Treasury to seeing effective integrated multinodal systems in our

major cities, and so it is in this context that the portfolio
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 85 of 111

committee has been conducting oversight visits to all of the host

cities. We visited all of them last year, except for Tshwane which

we visited in February this year. We met with Tshwane transport

officials for an entire day and listened to their plans. They are

talking about Metrorail improvements, the upgrade of stations, the

introduction of some new stations and also are planning - we hope

they are still planning - a bus rapid transit system.

However, they raised a number of concerns with us. The SA Rail

Commuter Corporation is planning a big Moloto rail extension from

Tshwane, Pretoria, to Moloto but they‘ve not consulted the city

effectively. And so where they are planning to end up in Tshwane is

not very suitable for the spatial planning and public transport

planning that Tshwane is looking at.

We also had the impression that there wasn‘t a very clear vision,

frankly, coming from Tshwane officials around their preparations for

2010 transport. This might have been the result of the fact that

there are two MMCs, members of the mayoral executive committee,

involved in public transport; one is involved with roads and

infrastructure and the other with public transport and the reports

we didn‘t quite add up to a clear integrated perspective. There are

also serious problems with regards to the bulk of the funding that

they want for their 2010 public transport planning. The bulk of the

funding is only earmarked for 2010-11, which is clearly too late to

put in place the transport in time for 2010.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 86 of 111

There are also problems with the Gautrain planning; often not

connecting effectively with the Pretoria plan. Now, having listened

to this and other host cities which we visited as well, the

committee asked itself: ―What‘s going wrong?‖ Because we are quite

concerned, to be honest, about what is going wrong, by way of

preparation for public transport for 2010 and, especially for the

legacy that we want to put in place beyond 2010. It was in that

context that we motivated with Parliament to allow us to have a look

at some international best practice, and we asked to go to the

United Kingdom and in particular selected London and Manchester.

We selected London because right at the moment, as we speak, they

are planning for the 2012 Olympic Games and we wanted to interact

with their transport officials and related institutions to see what

they are doing, by way of preparation for 2012. We also selected

Manchester because Manchester hosted the Commonwealth Games in 2002.

Now, in going to these two cities, we were well aware that there are

many differences, obviously, and one couldn‘t just transpose

experiences from the United Kingdom to South Africa. First of all,

both Commonwealth Games and Olympics Games are essentially one city

type event as opposed to the nine city event reality that 2010 would


Also, if you are talking about Manchester or London, you are talking

about cities with very effective public transport systems already in

place, which is not the case in our situation. However, that could
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 87 of 111

be exaggerated as we learned when we were there, because both our

counterparts in Manchester and in London underlined to us what a

devastating impact the massive privatisation and deregulation of the

public transport system had caused, that was pushed through by

Margaret Thatcher in the 1970s and 1980s, and there was a great deal

of disruption and undermining of the coherence of public transport

systems; both in Manchester, London and elsewhere in the UK.

However, there‘s been a significant turnaround in both of these

cities and particularly in London. The turnaround has been powered

by the fact that in both the cities there are very strong effective

city-level transport authorities. In the case of London, it‘s called

Transport for London, which was established by Ken Livingstone, the

former Mayor. It‘s a powerful entity which is dedicated to city-wide

public transport integration. It employs something like 17 000

employees and the turnaround that they‘ve seen in the last civil

years has been based on a bus system - getting their bus system to

work very well and also having a congestion charging scheme. As they

roll out good public transport, they also make it more and more

costly for you to bring a car into the centre of the city. You can‘t

do that, unless you also obviously supply decent public transport

for someone like myself who briefly lived in exile in London in the

late 1980s.

London has changed its public transport perspective. It‘s a much

more user-friendly place. There are many more pedestrian malls and
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 88 of 111

its much easier to walk around in London. You also see many people

riding on bikes in the centre of London – something that was

impossible, or near impossible, a few years ago. Their buses carry

1,8 billion passengers per year. It‘s an incredible achievement, and

very important. They said to us that the success of their planning

and preparations for the 2012 Olympic Games, from a transport

perspective, has had a lot to do with the fact that they got their

funding upfront and very fast.

Once London had secured the bid for the Olympic Games, the National

Treasury basically transferred the money upfront and very quickly to

them. That‘s one of the problems we are battling with now in South

Africa; cities are planning nicely, very often and sometimes not so

effectively, for their public transport rollout for 2010 but the

money doesn‘t flow in. The Treasury agrees that it looks good, but

is then not convinced that the business plan is effective and so on.

The problem is then that the deadlines are pushed back and, frankly,

we are running out of time if we are going to get a decent public

transport legacy before 2010.

In Manchester, it is a similar story. They have a very effective

transport authority. Manchester actually does not have a metro

municipal council, it just has 10 different districts but they

realised that one has to integrate one‘s public transport and,

therefore, they have established a Greater Manchester Public

Transport Authority, and an executive which employs 550 people who
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 89 of 111

are just dedicated to planning, funding, rolling out and regulating

the public transport in Greater Manchester.

So, in conclusion, these two reports which we are tabling before the

House this afternoon are trying to reflect on: Firstly, our

experience in Tshwane and our concerns about Tshwane; secondly, some

of the best practices that we think we can learn from elsewhere; and

the imperative of getting this right as quickly as possible. We are,

quite frankly, concerned – across political parties I should say -

in the committee that we are losing time. We‘ve no doubt that we

will provide transport for visitors coming in 2010. We will more or

less get that right, you know. We will fly by the seat of our pants

perhaps, but we will get that right. Unless we move now much more

effectively, which means decentralising appropriately to the city

level so that we can align planning, spatial planning and transport

planning, much more effectively. Unless we do that, we are not going

to succeed in the important objective that Cabinet has set for us,

namely, to derive from the hosting of 2010 not just a lovely event,

but a decent legacy of public transport for all South Africans after

2010. The time has shortened. The portfolio committee really wants

to underline that fact. Thank you. [Applause.]


Deputy Speaker, I move:

  That the Reports be noted.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 90 of 111

Motion agreed to.

Reports accordingly noted.



Prof S M MAYATULA: Madam Deputy Speaker, on 17 March 2008, following

the infamous racist video taken by four students of the Reitz Hostel

at the University of the Free State, the Portfolio Committee on

Education visited the university and had open and frank discussions

with the management, the labour unions and student organisations.

The report is contained in the ATC dated 19 June 2008.

The management informed the committee that the racist video was

actually made in September 2007 but only surfaced on 26 February


We are going to share just a summary of events as reflected by Anton

Fisher from the university. He said:

 This was triggered by the council‘s decision to integrate

 residences of University of Free State. And an implementation task

 team was made up. Unfortunately for this integration there was

25 JUNE 2008                                PAGE: 91 of 111

And to our surprise, according to Anton Fisher, the main opponents

of this were the Freedom Front Plus. Not only were they opposed to

this integration, they even tried to take the university to court,

saying there was not enough consultation.

According to Anton Fisher, there were protest marches addressed by

the Freedom Front Plus leadership, nationally and provincially,

against this integration.

Ixhala ke kukuba ingaba iFreedom Front ibiyintoni ingxaki yayo.

Amaxesha amaninzi ... [The concern therefore would be that, I

honestly do not know what the problem with the Freedom Front Plus

is. Most of the time ...]

... in this House we profess to be nonracist but many a time this is

just as good as you are going to keep a distance from me if you are

not like me. Let me choose a practical example. I am not going to

mention names, but I asked a member who was in my committee who

happened to be white – let me use that term – since we are buddies

working together, what would you say if my son were to propose

marriage to your daughter? He said: ``I don‘t want to lie. I would

never ever allow that to happen‘‘.

This is the reality that we need to accept. There are some people

who would accept nonracialism as long as it does not affect them

directly. Let us pronounce and shout but keep our distance.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 92 of 111

Therefore, when you have those different hostels, one being for

whites and one being for blacks and you put them together, chances

are that they are going to get to know each other. Once they get to

know each other, they are going to do what the old apartheid regime

didn‘t want: These different people will be getting married and

become one, one culture, one human element.

Sometimes I am proud of being a member of the ANC because in the ANC

because we don‘t talk about some of these things. We leave them out.

Kwi-ANC ufumana amakomanisi, abahedeni, sitshata wonke umntu, kwaye

senza yonke into. [In the ANC, there are communists, heathens, and

we marry everybody and we also do everything.]

Why? Because we declare ourselves human beings made in the image of

God, irrespective of where you come from. [Applause.]

Xa sihleli neemanyano zabasebenzi zithi enye yeengxaki zazo kukuba

iiklasi zaseFree State ziqhutywa ngohlobo lweparallel mode of

instruction, zesesiBhulu nesiNgesi. Loo nto yenza ukuba bonke

abathetha isiBhulu baye kungena kwiklasi yesiBhulu, abanye bonke

baye kungena kule klasi yesiNgesi, batsho ke bahlukane. Bathi into

abayicingayo ke bona kukuba endaweni yokuba umhlohli afundise abantu

abahlukeneyo into enye, kutheni bengadityaniswa nje. (Translation of

isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 93 of 111

[When we met with the labour unions, we were told that the problem

with the University of the Free State was the parallel mode of

instruction. In this system Afrikaans–speaking students attend

classes taught in Afrikaans and then the rest attend classes taught

in English – which is the thing that divides them. The labour unions

submitted that instead of the lecturer teaching the same thing to

separate groups, they could teach the two groups at the same time.]

A lecturer must speak the language he understands but must be

interpreted so that everybody else is able to understand him or her.

That forces people together.

Ngethamsanqa kwiKomiti yeMicimbi yeSebe ebesinayo izolo iNqununu

yeYunivesiti yaseMntla Ntshona ithe yile nto kanye bona bayenzayo

ngoku. [Luckily enough, in the meeting of the portfolio committee

that we had yesterday, the rector of the North West University said

this was exactly what they were doing.]

And this is what we are proposing in our recommendation.

Enye yeenkxalabo yeemanyano zabasebenzi kunye nabafundi kukuba

iKhansile yeyunivesiti imhlophe. Xa sisithi kutheni iKhansile

imhlophe nje, bathi abantu unobuhlanga kutheni ujonga ibala.

Baphinde bathi akuboni na ukuba ngabantu aba. Libala ngombala.

Njengokuba siza kuthi masingathethi ngebala nje, ngoku liyangena

ibala xa kufuneka behleli bodwa eReitz. Kodwa xa behleli kwiKhansile
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 94 of 111

masingababoni ukuba bahleli bodwa; abakwazi ukucingela ukuba abanye

abantu bathini ngale nto bayithethayo. Sithi ke iyunivesiti mayizame

ukuyijonga naleyo into. Kanti neyunivesiti masiyithethe into yokuba

emveni kokuba kwenzeke le nto ... (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph


[One of the concerns of the labour unions and the students was that,

the Council of the university is still white. When we ask why the

council is still white, people would obviously intervene and call us

racist and ask why we are looking at skin colour. They also ask

whether you cannot see that these are people. While we are called

upon not to focus on colour, colour begins to matter when they want

to be put alone at Reitz. And yet when they are sitting on the

university council, we should turn a blind eye to the fact that they

are sitting alone; they are not concerned about how the other people

feel about what they are discussing. We are therefore saying the

university must look into this matter. However we must also mention

that the university itself, after this incident ...]

Let me share what they did. They got this information on 26 February

2008. On 27 February 2008, the very following day, two students were

barred from the campus.

Besikade sisabela ukuba kutheni aba bafundi bebabini nje. Le nto

yenzeke ngo-2007, aba babini abafundi khange babuye ababini babuya.

Ngaba babini ke abaye bagxothwa ngomhla wama-27 kweyoMdumba?
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 95 of 111

Inqununu yaya kuthetha naba bantu. Khawufane ucinge! Ngoomama bane

notata, bamnyama thsu; ndiyeke ndisebenzise loo mbala. Ngabafundi

bamhlophe baya kwibala lemidlalo. Aba bafundi bamhlophe bathi kwaba

bantu badala balingana nabazali babo mababaleke bakhuphisane.

Babaleke abantu abadala besenza le nto kuthiwa mabayenze, kuba aba

bantu bakhulu kubo. Ndiye ndabuza komnye umfundi ukuba, ukuba

ibingumzali wakhe lo wenziwe le nto ebeya kuthini. Wathi lo mfundi

ebengekhe ayithande.

Kukho umahluko omkhulu phakathi kwabafundi abamhlophe nabamnyama

kulaa yunivesiti. Kuthi umfundi omnyama akuthetha le nto, omhlophe

athethe leya. Bathe bakuthi abamnyama mayivalwe iReitz bathi

abamhlophe mayingavalwa. Bathe abamhlophe, kuquka kubo inkokeli

yombutho wabafundi beFreedom Front, kutheni siyenza nzima nje le

nto. Ngabafundi nje abane abenze le nto ngoku nithi makuvalwe yonke

le ndawo yokuhlala; masingayivali akukho nto yenzekileyo.

Sithi sakuthi abantu abamnyama mabancediswe kwizinto

ebebengazifumani izolo, kuthiwe sinobuhlanga. Bade bathi abanye

abantu, aba bantwana bezelwe ngo-1994 nje, kutheni usithi

mababonelelwe. Ndithi buyela kuthi kwiAfrican National Congress.

Sithi ngoku abantu abangoomama mababe kumyinge ka-50%. (Translation

of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[We wanted to know why the university dealt only with these two

students. The incident happened in 2007, two students returned but
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 96 of 111

the other two did not come back, and it is only these two students

who came back who were expelled from campus on 27 February 2008.

The rector spoke to the victims of this incident. Can you imagine!

The victims are four pitch black women and one man, yes let me use

this colour. And the incident in short, is that white students were

seen on a rugby field. And these white students say to these women –

who are old enough to be their mothers – that they should run and

play on the rugby field and compete with them. And these poor old

women did as they were instructed since they regarded these students

as superior to them. I asked one of the students if he would have

liked the same to happen to his parents and he said no.

There is a huge difference between white and black students at that

university. A black student pulls the other way and the white

students pull to a different direction. The black students demanded

that the Reitz hostel be shut down, but the white students refused.

The white students, including the leader of the Freedom Front Plus

student representative council, asked why we are making this matter

very difficult.

They said that it was only four students who had done this and now

there was a demand that the entire Reitz hostel be shut down. These

students said the Reitz hostel should not be shut down because,

nothing had happened anyway.
25 JUNE 2008                                 PAGE: 97 of 111

When we request that the previously oppressed people must be helped,

we were soon told that we were racists. Other people complained that

these children were born in 1994, and why do we therefore say they

should be helped. I am saying you should come back to the African

National Congress. Now we are saying women should at least get 50%.]

Why are we saying that? Is it because these women were not with us

in 1994? In reality they were with us, ...

... kodwa ibisithi madoda abathatha zonke ezi zikhundla.[... but it

was us men, who took all these positions.]

It has nothing to do with race. It has to do with catching up. We

are saying that you are human beings too; you can think; you can

lead. Let us accommodate you; let us not pretend as if we are at the

same starting block; you are far behind.

Yizani sibaleke kunye. Nokuba umntwana umhlophe, xa sisithi

khawuvumele umntwana ... ayinanto yakwenza neminyaka. Inento

yokwenza neenkcukacha zamanani namhlanje. Nokuba ungajonga

kwicandelo leeAccountants, bonke aba bantu balawula eli lizwe

bamhlophe. Ayenzekanga ngempazamo ke loo nto, koko yenziwe kukuba

abantu bethu bebebotshelelwe bengakwazi ukuyenza le nto.

Abanakuyenza emva kweminyaka emithathu. Abanye mabakhe balinde side

sifike ngoba khange siqale kunye. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph

25 JUNE 2008                               PAGE: 98 of 111

[Come and let us run together. Whether a child is white, when we say

admit the child ... that has nothing to do with years. It has to do

with the details of figures today. If you look at accountants in

this country, you will realise that they are all white. And this is

not by accident, because even though our people could do it they

were restricted. They cannot do it in just three years. Others must

wait till we come because we did not start together anyway.]

It cannot be fair, and there is nothing racist about it. It is

levelling the playing field. [Applause.]

Siyacela ke ukuba le ngxelo mayamkelwe ngoba sifuna ukuba ezi zinto

zisicebisayo apha ... [We therefore request that, this report be

adopted, because we want the recommendations we have made here ...]

... to be implemented. Thank you. [Applause.]


Deputy Speaker, I move on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority

Party that this report be noted.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The motion is that the report be noted.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, may I ask why we are not going

to adopt it rather than just note it?
25 JUNE 2008                                PAGE: 99 of 111

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Well, the decision of the Chief Whip of the

Majority Party is that it be noted. I am sure there are reasons for


Mr M J ELLIS: We will be quite happy to adopt it, Madam Deputy


The DEPUTY SPEAKER: But then there is no motion for adoption.

Mr M J ELLIS: Can I propose a motion for adoption?


unfortunately. It‘s the prerogative of the Chief Whip of the

Majority Party and he says the report should be noted.

Mr M J ELLIS: That doesn‘t look like it is the Chief Whip of the

Majority Party. [Laughter.]

Motion agreed to.

Report accordingly noted.



25 JUNE 2008                             PAGE: 100 of 111

Mr G G OLIPHANT: Deputy Speaker, Deputy President and colleagues, we

are talking about a report that was published in the ATC,

Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, on 18 June 2008, on

our visit to IKS, Indigenous Knowledge Systems - a lead project that

is based here in the Western Cape.

Abanye bathi ezi zinto zezamagqirha, ngoko ke kuza kufuneka nivume

xa ndinivumisa ndikule ndawo ndikuyo. [Others say that these are

matters related to sangomas, and therefore, you should respond in

the affirmative by saying, ―siyavuma‖ when I call upon you to do so

from here.]

The Indigenous Knowledge Systems is an area of scientific

competitive advantage located at the Medical Research Council and

funded by the Department of Science and Technology, DST, through the

National Indigenous Knowledge Systems office called NIKSO.

Our visit to this project, which is located in Parow Valley in the

Western Cape, was essentially to enhance our understanding of this

programme and to measure its output against national priorities. Our

assessment is that the IKS is still marginalised, sidelined and not

adequately funded in order to realise its full potential.

On the other hand, indigenous knowledge holders and communities from

which such knowledge is derived do not benefit. For instance, Hoodia

- some of you know it very well - is a very popular medicinal plant
25 JUNE 2008                             PAGE: 101 of 111

used within the international health system across the world. The

generators of this knowledge and the communities from where this

plant is harvested remain poor and outside the formal economy.

We have 24 000 plant species in South Africa, as stated in the

report. A total of 4 000 are used to manufacture medicines and 20

000 tons of medicinal plants are exported each year. We still have

to investigate this matter to establish who the beneficiaries of

these economic activities are and what are the fault lines relating

to the nonincorporation of indigenous communities into this

knowledge economy. Key to our mandate is the improvement of the

quality of life for all our people, not only some.

The portfolio committee also visited a laboratory in Delft, also in

the Western Cape, where we were shown how plants are processed and

converted into tablets or capsules. They showed us a very

interesting and impressive demonstration of excellence, only about

10 minutes‘ drive from Parliament.

What was even more remarkable was the packaging and labelling of

these capsules on site - some of them you see at the chemist across

the road. The knowledge that our people possess on plants and herbs

and their respective medicinal properties, represent enormous wealth

that has not yet been exploited to its maximum potential.
25 JUNE 2008                              PAGE: 102 of 111

One of their flagship projects at the laboratory is the patenting of

the malaria strain. We hope that they succeed in their venture. The

Department of Science and Technology has a programme called Farmer-

to-Pharmacy, which means from the farmer to the pharmacist. This is

what this project is trying to achieve.

People with money have over the years appropriated knowledge and

registered intellectual property rights to themselves, to the total

exclusion of the poor. This matter needs to be corrected. Funding

from the Department of Science and Technology has not increased from

what it was in previous years; it has remained the same. We have

raised this matter with the department for its consideration and


Other recommendations, which I am not going to repeat, are in the

report and are being processed, and we need to follow up on some of

these matters. When we return in the next session, we will be

processing a piece of legislation called the intellectual property

rights for publicly funded research. Basically, this is to avoid a

situation where the state funds research and at an advanced stage

their capitalist ventures buy some of the technology or appropriate

some of the technology to themselves, patent it and from there start

exporting it overseas and make money. Therefore, people who came

with these technologies and with this knowledge do not benefit from

25 JUNE 2008                             PAGE: 103 of 111

We need to correct this, and this law that we will be passing in the

next term is precisely to try and address this situation. I thank

you very much. [Applause.]


Deputy Speaker, I move on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority

Party, that the report be noted.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, may I ask why the report has not

been adopted. I would like to propose an adoption. I am so sad.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The motion is that the report be noted.

Mr M J ELLIS: I would like to propose that the report be adopted. I

am so sad.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Are there any objections? Are you objecting, Mr

Ellis? If not, take your seat. I promise you that you have worked

hard to get a half-day and I am not going to give it to you. You are

going to be here until adjournment. If you think I am going to ask

you to leave, I won‘t be doing that. [Laughter.]

Motion agreed to.

Report accordingly noted.
25 JUNE 2008                             PAGE: 104 of 111




Mrs W S NEWHOUDT-DRUCHEN: Deputy Speaker, the functions of the Joint

Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of

Children, Youth and Disabled Persons are to monitor and evaluate

progress with regard to the improvement in the quality of life and

the status of children, youth and disabled persons in South Africa

with special reference to government‘s commitment in respect of any

applicable international instruments and to duties and

responsibilities in respect of any applicable legislation.

Prior to the workshop that we had as a JMC, I, as the chairperson,

met with the facilitators to set up the objectives of this workshop,

and the objectives were as follows: To review and evaluate the work

done by the JMC since 2005, which included identifying its strengths

and weaknesses in relation to its co-functions; identifying

challenges to complete activities in the work plan; critically

assessing the operational structures of the JMC and proposing

alternative methods of working.

The objectives also try to help members understand the functions of

the JMC in relation to South Africa‘s international obligations and

a deeper understanding of the tools available to Members of
25 JUNE 2008                                PAGE: 105 of 111

Parliament. They work with various sectors that the JMC also work

with, namely children, youth and disabled persons.

We wanted to draft a programme that could be achievable and which

include a range of activities that cater for all three sectors that

we see to, and cover the five functions as well, namely legislation,

oversight, public participation, co-operative governance and

international participation.

At our strategic workshop the NA Table staff and the South African

Human Rights Commission briefed us on the private member‘s motion as

well as international instruments. As the JMC we are responsible for

the oversight work in relation to children, youth and disabled

people, and we oversee the Offices on the Rights of the Child, the

Office on the Status of Disabled Persons, the Umsobomvu Youth Fund

as well as the National Youth Commission.

At our strategic workshop we in small groups, and made

presentations, held discussions and looked at plans and programmes

and the activities that could be reflected in our plans for 2008.

Out of our group discussions we had an activity plan where we had 18

priorities. Members can go through that in the report.

In conclusion, it has been agreed that the JMC should co-ordinate

the work better. Members are responsible to mainstream the work of

the JMC with other portfolio committees. That is very important to
25 JUNE 2008                             PAGE: 106 of 111

us. We also seriously need to look at the meeting times of the JMC

which are held on Fridays as it is very difficult to have a quorum

on a Friday. The existing support base for us as a committee was not

good this year; we only managed to get a researcher two months ago

and our committee is functioning properly now.

Parliament needs to look at the functioning of the JMC, and as I

have mentioned, we only managed to get a researcher this term and

she has helped a lot with our committee work. The JMC needs to

continue to work with the three sectors; namely the youth, children

and the disabled sector, and we need to have a better understanding

of their work. This report was adopted by the committee and we need

to improve the relationship with the three sectors that we are

working with. We also ask that this House adopt our report. Thank

you. [Applause.]


Deputy Speaker, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the majority party I


  That the Report be adopted.

Motion agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted.
25 JUNE 2008                                              PAGE: 107 of 111

The House adjourned at 16:44.




National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1.   Bills passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent

     (1) Bills passed by National Council of Provinces on 25 June 2008:

          (a) Cross-Border Road Transport Amendment Bill [B 51B – 2007] (National Assembly

                – sec 75)

          (b) Financial Intelligence Centre Amendment Bill [B 18B - 2008] (National Assembly –

                sec 75)


National Assembly
25 JUNE 2008                                                   PAGE: 108 of 111

1.   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government on the Local

     Government Laws Amendment Bill [B 28B – 2007] (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 24

     June 2008.

     The Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government, having considered the Local

     Government Laws Amendment Bill [B 28B – 2007] and proposed amendments of the National

     Council of Provinces (Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, 25 March 2008, p

     515), referred to the Committee, reports the Bill with amendments [B 28C – 2007].

2.   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Communications on the filling of vacancies on the Council

     of the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa, dated 25 June 2008.

     In its report to the National Assembly on 10 June 2008, the Committee recommended that the

     House submits to the Minister a suitable list of candidates at least one and a half times the

     number of councillors to be appointed on the Council of the Independent Communications

     Authority of South Africa.

     After consideration of the list of candidates, the Minister recommended that, in terms of section

     5(1B) of the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa Act, Act No 13 of 2000, as

     amended, the National Assembly approves that the following persons be appointed to serve on

     the Council:

     Mr F K Sibanda, Ms N Batyi and Mr T Makhakhe.

     Having considered the Minister’s recommendation referred to it, the Committee recommends

     that the National Assembly approves the appointment of the above – mentioned persons.
25 JUNE 2008                                                PAGE: 109 of 111

     Report to be considered.

3.   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the Judicial

     Service Commission Amendment Bill [B 50 - 2007], dated 24 June 2008.

     The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the

     Judicial Service Commission Amendment Bill [B 50 - 2007] (National Assembly – sec 75) and

     the proposed amendments of the National Council of Provinces (Announcements, Tablings and

     Committee Reports, 7 May 2008, p 594), referred to the committee, reports the Bill with

     amendments [B50A – 2007].

4.   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the South

     African Judicial Education Institute Bill [B 4B - 2007], dated 25 June 2008:

     The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the

     South African Judicial Education Institute Bill [B 4B - 2007] (National Assembly – sec 75)

     and the proposed amendments of the National Council of Provinces (Announcements, Tablings

     and Committee Reports, 7 May 2008, p 595), referred to the Committee, reports the Bill with

     amendments [B 4C – 2007].

5.   Report of the Portfolio Committee of Agriculture and Land Affairs on the Liquor Products

     Amendment Bill [B 22 - 2008] (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 24 June 2008:

     The Portfolio Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs, having considered the subject of the

     Liquor Products Amendment Bill [B 22 - 2008] (National Assembly – sec 75), referred to it, and
25 JUNE 2008                                                   PAGE: 110 of 111

     classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments

     [B 22A - 2008].

6.   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Science and Technology on the Human Sciences

     Research Council Bill [B 16B – 2007] (National Assembly – sec 75) and the President’s

     reservations about the constitutionality of the Bill, dated 24 June 2008:

     The Portfolio Committee on Science and Technology, having reconsidered section 5(3) of the

     Human Sciences Research Council Bill [B 16B – 2007] and the President’s reservations on the

     constitutionality of section 5(3) of the Bill (Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, 8

     May 2008, p 599), recommends that the President’s reservations be accommodated, and presents

     an amended Bill [B 16C – 2007].

     Report to be considered.

7.   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Science and Technology on the South African National

     Space Agency Bill [B 20 - 2008] (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 24 June 2008:

     The Portfolio Committee on Science and Technology, having considered the subject of the South

     African National Space Agency Bill [B 20 - 2008] (National Assembly – sec 75), referred to it

     and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill with

     amendments [B 20A - 2008].

8.   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on the Protocol amending the Agreement

     between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of Australia for
25 JUNE 2008                                                   PAGE: 111 of 111

     the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on

     income, dated 17 June 2008:

     The Portfolio Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament

     of the Protocol amending the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South

     Africa and the Government of Australia for the avoidance of double taxation and the

     prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on income, recommends that the House, in

     terms of section 231 (2) of the Constitution, approve the said Protocol.

     Request to be considered.

9.   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on the Agreement between the Government of the

     Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of Sudan for the avoidance of

     double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on income, dated 17

     June 2008:

     The Portfolio Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament

     of the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the

     Government of Republic of Sudan for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of

     fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on income, recommends that the House, in terms of section

     231 (2) of the Constitution, approve the said Agreement

     Request to be considered.

To top