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document forProvince of British
BAT Industries Columbia 10 November 2000
BAT INDUSTRIES 00290664
RESEARCH CONFERENCE, SOUTHAMPTON, 1962
SMOKING AND HEALTH - POLICY ON RESEARCH
CHAIRMAN: Mr.A.D.McCORMICK
CONTENTS
Page I
Introduction ..................................
The Smoking and iiealth Problem . .............. 3
Page
b.vSir Charles Ellis
Page 26
Discussion ....................................
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document forProvince of British
BAT Industries Columbia 10 November 2000
BAT INDUSTRIES 00290665
RESEARCH CONFERENCE, SOUTHAMPTON, 1962
SMOKING & HF.ALTHS POLICY ON RESEARCH
DELEGATES
HILLBM LTVERPOOL
Mr. A. D. McCormick (Chairman) Mr. D. R. Davies
Mr. H. D. An4orson
Mr. R. A. Boothroyd
Sir Charles Ellis SOUTH AFRICA
Mr. D. S. F. Hobson
Mr. J. E. Sisney
AUSTRALIA
SOUTHAMPTDN
Mr. W. W. Reid
Dr. C. I. Ayres
Dr. D. G. Felton
BRISTOL Dr. W. B.'Fordyce
Dr. S. J. Green
Dr. J. H. Chesterfield Mr. S. A. Grow
Mr. E. C. Fieldsond Dr. 1. W. Rughes
Mr. P. J. Hichall
Mr. J. W. H. S*gar
CANADA Mr. M. E. Willis
Nr. D. J. Wood
Mr. R. U. Gibb
Mr. L. C. Laporte
Mr. L. A. Rowell U.S.A.
Mr. R. S. Wade
Dr. J. G. Esterle
Dr. R. S. Griffith
INDIA I*ld
Itr.A. 'Upf
ik. T. U. Wadej, Jar.
Mr. W. G. W. Warren
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document forProvince of British
BAT Industries Columbia 10 November 2000
BAT INDUSTRIES 002906-66
RESF,ARCH CONF=CE, SOUTHAMPTON, 1962.
SMOKING AND HULTH - POLICY ON RESEARCH.
PRESENTED BY: SIR CHARLES ELLIS.
IN THE CHAIR: IIR.A.D. McCORMICK.
INTRODUCTION
In his introduction Mr.A.D. McCormick explained that his presence in
the chair was due to the folotthat he vms the Company's representative on the
Executive Committee of the T.M,S.C., and he briefly reviewed the background to
show how the tobacco manufacturers in this country had attempted to deal
with the question of smoking and health. Following'the first Medical Researoh
Council statement in 1954, in which smoking was suggested as a possible cause
of lung cancer, the tobacco manufacturers decided that the best way to deal
with the matter was on an industry rather than on an individual company basis,
following the lead of the inaustry in the TJ.S.A.twho formed the Tobacco
Industry Research Committee in December 1953. The U.K. manufacturers
approached the Minister of Health, w@nohad made a statement on the subject in
the House of Commons, and asked him how best they oould assist. On his advioe
they donated Li million to the M.R.C. for medical research into smoking and
s
lung cancer, this sum to be BpreaLdo,.,er even years (to date this has not all
been spent). In June 1956 a continuing organisation, the Tobaooo Manufacturers'
Standing Co=itteep was set up "to assist research into the question of amaki-ng
and health, to keep in touch with BCientiets and others working on this subject
cc
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workerr
in the TJ.K.and abroad, and to make information avai2able to scier)t.ific
and the public." All tobacco manufacturers in this country are directly ox
indirectly represented on the T.M.S.C. whicb has a Dixectoy, Mr. C.P. Toddv al)a
a TecbLnicalSub-Committee to advise the Executive Committee on tecW)Ioal
matters. M-r.Mcl;ormicksaid that the object of thiLRsession was to give
o
delegates the opportu.-iity f commenting on ox criticisirtg the resepa-ohprogrmu=e
of the T.M.S.C. which Sir Charles was about to explain.
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BAT Industries document for Province of British Columbia 10 November 2000
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3-
C SOUTHAMPRON,
.RMEARCHONFERENCE, 190,,e
Sl'.@IOKITIG H---ALTH PROBLEM.
.Tlrr, AliD
SirCharleB Ellis.
After reading the Report of the Royal
of
-Colleige Physicians and the debate in the House
iml)ression I received wa's
of Lords the dominan-14-,-
: an
that of people who h--,d,,eac:lied emotional con-
clusion in which tlaeybelieved passionately and
sincerely. This report pr ovided the occasion
for statements of faith by *people who seemed to
hoviever,-to
fiiidit ii(-cessury, silence their own
by
L-@elf-criticism repeating phrase.9like, "con-
b of
ciiisivev-,,oofeyoiidthe shz)Ldoiy doubt" ....
effect of the marshalling of cold
"devastatinr,-
o.ntificfacts", and so on. have
Yet vie %-.Iio
i
I-,een=iersed in the subject for many years
t
t)iELthis report produced no new fact,
n arguments, i-ndeed,.exceptfor
1):,oducedo iieiv
l
the contribution of an emotional C,,loss,eft
the subject untouched. -We know only too well
t
-LI.athere are no conclusive proofs; that there
are few, if any, cold scientificfacts.
Hoviever, emotional conclusions cannot be
disrc,-,zi7-,Iccl. hey may not be rieht, but they are
T
w
not ne,--escarily rong. Emotional judgments are
ba3is for national thinkirg, and since a
often tlir..
nationi2 attitude to smoking may be building up it
is essnrtial for us to consider what are the com-
in
Doiieiit-q tl)isemotioxi.
t 13
"'Le Yror iin-Doi,tant the dread word "cancer".
I
t@Tost,PO.Plc to
cea--ze I)cable to reason once it is
a
mentioij-@l,nd you Nvillall be aware how difficult
it is fuz-Ooctors to overcome -thereluctance of people
to admit 'licponsibility of having c-,i7i!@er to
and C=>
for early examinatioii. Lung C=)
cai-rir@--= it all of these associatiors,
cazic(:r riitli
C=)
BAT Industries document for Province of British Columbia 10 November 2000
BAT INDUSTRIES 00290669
4.
and also shares some of the ELura of dread connected
with tuberculosis. I can well remember liow pneuino-
coniosis in the coal mines had uiucliof this cii2otioi.@.1
vicls
bacligrowid atill correspondingly difficult to deal.
with in a ratioti,,il
iiianner. cougli it) a rpcll
Siiiolccrls
-Liid
plienoirictioti obvious to everyone, and vie sliould
reoognise that it 13 a factor iii the emotional
build-up.
Lastl3,, smoking of
is a h,,-.bit ELddiction
that is pleanurable; many people, therefore, fiiid
theinselves siib-consciously prel;ared to believe that
it must be wrong.
I do not believe that it is either possible
or wise to atteinpt to argue directly Eiguixistthese
eniotioial attitudes - they will dimiiiistior iiicrease
as the facts'about the situation become clearer -
but v.,eshould in my opinioii I!ave tllcm in our minds
when we cojisider the scientific iiivestigation of
this problem.
TJlere are regrettably few facts in this
subject. The epidemiological evidence on the
association of cigarette sirokirigand lung cancer
is well known to you and is coherent, but tuitil
the recent reniarlable paper of Bluellock little
liad been reported about the actioloey of lwig
cancer just because of the difficulty of causing
it to occur in experimental animals. The opinion
seems to be generally held amozig medical men that
cancer of the lung is not a good researeli approach
to caiicer,and that it will only L? practicable to
make worthwhile advances in understandinp., the origin
and growth of lung cancer mid how to coiitrol it when
more progress has been made with cancers in other
sites. This wiforttlnately is %viierewe caiinot but
be influenced by the emotional attitude of the
country; whether it is scientifically sensible or
not we, as an industry, just liave'to investigate.tiie
various possibilities of the cause of lung cancer and,
as a very important possible factor, the effects of
C=)
ei.-arette cmoke.
d Columbia 10 November 2000
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b
This is @tlicackground to the progratnme of
t
research wtiicli his Company supports and which is the
main topic of this paper, but before I come to that
I will state carefullywhat is the policy of the
Eoard in this matter. The Boa@-d recognises that
this probleinmurt be tackled from two sides, the
first being medical researcl-i.on the origin of lung
cancer and I)io-assayon the biological effects of
smolre,and -the second beinp, the corposition of smoke
and the possibilities of modifyiri,- it. The Board
has decided that if this CompaiV makes any significant
scientific discovery clearly relevant to health it
will share its knoviledgewith its co*members of
aiicl
T.*,@I.S.C. not seelc to obtain competitive commercial
advanta,-e. The Board has therefore decided that they
t
will v:hole-heartedlysupport T.T@I.S.C.o carry out
and co-ordinate all research on smoking and health.
T.I,I.S.C.will do this by itself carrying out bio-,
, at
lolical @yorl, itits establie@h@nent Harrogate and
by sponsoring biological and medical work at
Institutions. T.M.S.C. will depend on member
w
companies for physical and cheinj.calork.
This is a very important decision of the Board,
m
and %-ieust all be cztrcfvlto appreciate what It means.
We sliall not, that is this Company will not, engage
in medical or bio-assay work on this subject, but
of giving our fullest
.we accept the respoiisib-'@li'u-@-
to
possible assistance to T.,,,I.S.C. ensure that the
right subjects of researcliare chosen and are carried
out efficiently. will play a similar part in
"iie
the field of the physics and chemistry of smoke,'.but
here we do our share of the joint work in our own
laboratories.
The Board recognises that from time to time
there will be cases where it is difficult to decide
whether some research or proposed research should be
classified under health or is a legitimate subject for
competitive company action. For exam]@le, the dividing
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line between research on irritating smoke components
and pleasant flavour ones may be difficult to drawl
by some form of general statement or rules, but in
any one case there would not be much difficulty.in
deciding whether our duty lay to disclose or not to
disclose to T.M.S.C.
The important effect of this policy lies in
the responsibility it places on the Group for ensuring
that the T.M.S.C. programme is well-conceived and is
followed energetically. If we think the programme
is not correct, is insufficient, or is proceeding
slowly, then it is up to us to do something about it;
it is our responsibility. I am now going to present
this programme to you, and Mr. McCormick, who represents
the Company on@the-Executive Committee of the T.M.S.C.,
will, I am sure, give serious consideration to any
comments or suggestions that you may make. This is
not just a matter for this one meeting; it should
be a continuing process by all members of the Group.
Any views on health research, or comments on what is
being done, or contributions on the chemical side,
should be sent to us. There is a Technical Sub-
Committee of the T,M.S.C., and Dr. Felton, Dr. Hughes
and I are the Company's representatives on this.
T.I,R,C, occupies an analogous position
and our contact there is through Brown & Williamson.
-Later I will refer briefly to their programme of
research.
Imperial Tobacco Company of Canada, Wills
Company of Australia, and certain other companies
with whom we are associated, are not members of
either T.M.S.C, or T.I.R.C., and therefore on a
strict interpretation of the ruling are not
under these arrangements. I feel sure, how-
-everp that they will voluntarily accept their C:)
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rcgponsibilities for studying the T.M.S.C. and T.I.R.C.
prograniroesand exproz3oing their opinions. It has also
been agreed by the Board that we shall keep confidential
to ourselves any items of research on health matters
with which such Companies are personally associated
but which they do not-wish passed on to T.M.S.C. or
to T.I.R.C., althougli it 113hoped that they will in.
by the Board's policy.
the mdin be izifluencp-d
The central fact in this subject is that.in
sufficient doses tobacco condensate acts as a carcinogen
when painted on the backb of mice, or when injected
-In
subeutancoutly,l:nto-rats-;-' sufficient dose it also
acts as a co-careinogen in mouse painting tests. On
present evidenpe the amount of the known carcinogens
in smolceare insufficient to make it plausible that
these experiments could be extrapolated to oupport
the view that smoking is harmful to human beings,
but at least they serve to indicate a group of sub-
stances which require intense iuveatigg@tionand which,
even if we do not know why, we,'wouldbe pleased to see
less of.
This kind of view is quite generally held,
but its starting point accepts the equivalence of
chemically manipulated, old stored condensate with
fresh smoke aerosol only a fraction of a second old,
and this may not be at all the case.
It might appear that the'right line was to
get animals to breathe smoke aerosol, but such experi-
ments have not yet been productive and to date no con-
clusive results have been obtained in this way.
Therefore, in view of the great amount of work already
carried out using old stored oondensate T.M.S.C. de-
cided it would be beat to make a partial attack on
this crucial problem by Investigating whether the
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I)iological effect of condensate on mouse skin changed
noticeably in the first few hours after its prepar-
ution. It was apparent that a much higher accuracy
was required than could possibly be achieved by the
ordinary experiment at the 40 - 80 mouse level, and
thus T.DI.S.C.has been'led to its major research
project at its new bio-assay laboratory at Harrogate.
This.laboratory will open.on September lst, 1962.
The scale on which it is proposed to work
can be illustrated by giving a few details of this
experimentt which aims to compare the biological
effect of fresh smoke condensate, old smoke conden-
tsate, and the neutral fraction of old condensate.
Six thousand mice will be used, divided up into three
colonies of 2,000 mice. Each lot of 2,000 mice will
'bedivided into four groups of 500 mice, corresponding
to the three,treatments, leaving 500 mice for control.
Each lot of 500 mice having the same treatment will be
painted at three dose levels and, of the 500 control
mice, 250 will be painted with acetone and 250 not
painted but otherwise receiving the same handling
as treated animals.
.A necessary preliminary experiment is to
deter-minethe best dose level for the treatment, which
involves a variety of toxicity tests since appreciable
yields of tumours are only obtained with dose rates of
whole smoke condensate that cause a significantly in-
creased death rate at all ages compared with untreated
controls, This may involve the use of some 400 mice
and require in all perhaps eighteen months, but it..
should be possible to start on some aspects of the
main experiment before the final toxicity tests are
completed.
The preparation of the smoke condensate for
these experiments will be no small task and must be
carried out in the Harrogate laboratory, Even with
the condensate preparation next door to the animal
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house it does not seem likely that anything fresher
than 2 hours old material can be used, and should
there prove to be a difference some method of bridging
the gap between thi3 Iterval and the fractions of
seconds involved iiisinoking will have to be devised.
'
To indicate the care with which it is hoped
to carry out this experime nt it is worth mentioning
that the response of the different batches of supposedly
identical mice will be calibrated by observing the
effects of two standard pure carcinogens.
The capital cost of the Harrogate laboratory
will be about a quarter of a million pounds, and running
Costs Mounting Soon to over a RIOO,000 per annum. It
is a large investigation in bio-aSBay, and stands in
complete contrast to those of Vlynder where, broadly
speaking, in comparable type experiments he used one-
tenth to orie-ti7entieththe number of mice. In fact,
in this field nothing like it has been attempted before.
It should with almost certainty show up a difference
of 30 per cent. in the two condensates and will give
good information about.possible differences of 15 per
cent.
This is a major experiment, and it is important
to know whether it has your full support. It would
appear to me to be quite fundamental since the results
might change our interpretation of past measurementst
and will have a great influence in determiningthe
design of future experiments. The experiment is on
such a scale that there is just not staff available to
contemplate other bio-assay work until this experiment
is well under way, say, a year or so,
However, besides bio-assay to measure a
possible carcinogenic or co-carcinogenic action of
smoke there is another property which on current CD
C=>
thought seems likely to have health implications, -i
and that is irritation, The aecond major objective C=)
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of Hari-ogateis therefore to investigate how this
h
ari@-cs. T.',T.S.C.ave already studied the literature
aiids-oorscredsome work at eLhospital, but little
progress v;asmade, nor did there seem much hope of
better results. Our thinkiriris that this is largoly
because no proper viay of measuring irritation has been
foti-.-id. Vleneed some method which is closely related
to '@hosepossible effects of irritation which could,
in different ways
[a]. cause chronic bronchitis,
[b] be responsible by itself for
carcip-ogenesis,
[c3 act as a co-carcinogen or promoting
factor in association with
specific "carcinogens".
t
This sug,-,estshat at least two different
tcs@@oof irritation are needed. One of these should
refer to the genesis of-bronchitis by detecting the
proliferation of the mucous-5ecreting goblet cells
in the lilng,and this might be done by noting -
Lynne Reid - the amount of some specific
followir@-,
polysaccliai-ide bronchial mucus.
in The other test
mi@shtbe related to the histological changes in lung
epithelium detected by Leuchtenberger and Cunningham,
from the initial acute
clndfollowing these throu,-,h
c
ir-flarlmatoryonditions to thelhyperplasia of the
surface epithelium and basal cells.
The tvio exoeriments are to a considerable
extent distinct, and each would require the full
time attention of a skilled research pathologist
t
a.,id wo or three assistants.
.If these investigations are successful and
lead to a reasonable method of characterisirig
irritation then there is no di±ficulty.in seeing
opportunities for using them to investigate the
@i-fferentconstituents of smoke. Por examplet
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BAT INDUSTRIES 00290676
ii.
it would be important to compare whole smoke with
the vapour phase alone, the smoke from lamina with
the smoke from stem, and it can be hoped that these
ijidicationswould be associated with detailed
cliemicalwork in members' laboratories.
It seems probable that there will be
sufficient space in the Harrogate laboratory to
accommodate this work. The running cort may be
initially about 415,000 per iiiii@,im. two
T@,,.-
--research pathologists have yet to be-found, so it
whetlierthis effort i@3
is little use di"cvssint,-
enough. It is fair to say that if the iz,itialwork
is successful it is proposed to follow it up vigor-
ously on a much larger scale because of the obviously
great importance of this line of researcli.
"W
The sucgestion that the health aspects of
smoke depend on the metliod of preparation of the
leaf is familiar to a.11of you, and recently it was
raised agai.nby the M.R.C. in discussion with T.M.S.C.
T2ieupsliotwas to make a joint study into the possi-
bi.lityof carrying out an experiment to-see whetlier
was any difference in the bio-assay of the con-
th(--re
densate from the same tobacco cured in two different
After some considerable discussion it was
decided to use a tobacco grown in Mexico from bright
tobacco seed with the leaves harvested when ripe for
fl-ue-curing. One half of the crop will then be
flue-cured in the usual way, the other half will be
aiz--cured and then bulk-fermented. The total weight
of each.lot of tobacco after curing will be at least
10,000-lbs. and both of these will be shipped to U.K.
where they will be manufactured into cigarettes.
The seed will be sown this October-November# and the C:)
work on the cigarettes should start in the summer of
1963. A comprehensive chemical analysis will bo made
co
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1-1.
of the condensate, but the chief interest centres
in the plans for bio-assay. These will attempt to
cover both celreinogenic and co-careinogenic activity.
Dr. l@arrian is arranging for an experiment to be
carried out at M.R.C.'s station at Mill Hill in which,
following Kotin, mice.will first be infected twice
with'influenza and then exposed to cigarette smoke,
or alternatively to a carcinogenic aerosol with or
without tobacco smoke.. A preliminary orientating
experiment is to be started as soon as possible,
--using standard U.K. eigarettes,and four groups of.
100 mice, each in sealed containers throughout their
experimental life, will be exposed -
Group I - to virus infection alone,
II - to virus infection followed
by daily exposure to an
"aerosol of a pure carcinogen.
III - to virus infection followed
by daily exposure to cigarette
smoke.
IV - to virus infection followed
by daily exposure to carcinogen
aerosol and cigarette smoke.
If this intriguing new-technique is success-
ful it will be used to compare the biological activity
of the two differently cured samples of Mexicaa
tobacco.
In addition to this experimental method
normal bio-assay, using mouse painting, will be
carried out by Dr. Roe at the Pollards Wood Research
Station of the Institute of Cancer Research It is
proposed to use 1,500ice
m *
divided into four groups
for the direct carcinogenic tests. The co-carcino-
genic activity, using will be investigated
IX-IMA,
first on a rather smaller scale, using 100 mice for
each type of tobacco and 100 mice for control with
DMBA and ace-tone.
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T.M.S.C. attach great value to this experi-
rientfor a number of reasons. Firstlyp it is an
experiment in collaboration with the medical authorities
in which the standards of work, both on the tobacco
side and on the bio-assay side, will be as high as
are attainable to-day.. Secondly, the bio-assay,
planned to cover both carcinogenic and co-careinogenic
activity, will use the new -Virusinfection plus aerosol
technique as well as skin painting. The third reason,
and this is the most important, is that this will be
the firet.time that comprehensive bio-assay and chemical
measurements will have been made on the same'leaf cured
in two different ways.
The total cost of this experiment is difficult
to estimate accurately since the work will be carried
out in existing,establiahments with existing staff
but, assuming no duty has to be paid on the tobacco,
something like L50,000 to C70,000 will be involved
by all the parties concerned.
The T.M,S.Cs has over the last few years
very often discussed what is termed the susceptible
sub-group hypothesis, but only recently have they
found anyone with reasonable proposals for investi-
gating it. Now Professor Reid of the London School
of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine has prepared pl s
which seem well-judged to cope with this formidable
problem. It is going to take a long time, and cost
a lot of money, and I can only outline the experiment.
It is proposed to start with a basic sample of 200,000
men, details of whom would be accessible to Professor
Reid through his excellent relations with various
Civil Service Organisations, and to follow the medical
history of as many of these as possible over a period
of at least 10 years in the hope of finding out what C:>
are the.characteristics of people who get serious
cardiac or respiratory dis@aues, Perhaps past co
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BAT Industries document for Province of British Columbia 10 November 2000
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14.
history or present minor disability may predispose
people to these diseases. An important question
would be whether all forms of chronic cough are
pre-disposing, or only a coug)iassociated
equ--Lily
with mucoid sputum or purulent sputum. Is
a
bronciiiti:3 frequent precursor of lung cancer?
m-any other similar queBtiOnS are at
These'-,tnd
pres-intunanswerable, but a thorough investigation
on an adequate scale of the personal characteristics
and environmental circumstances - which of course,
includes smoking - that predispose people to these
diseases should show whether they are randomly
distributed or are grouped in some way that makes.
the hypothesis of a susceptible sub-group into..a
possible reality.
This is a massive wearisome experim ent that
i '
-o;illnvolve four skilled doctors [not always the
i3ameland several assistants for at least 10 years,
but,wliateverthe results, they will constitute a
formidable body of evidence of permanent value to
the medical profession. The cost may be of the
ordnr of L30,000 a year, and final arrarigementb
are now being made with Professor Reid.
I will mention only briefly the support
that is being given to Professor Dickens and Dr.
Wliiteheadin an investigation of the pos3ible
existence of carcinogenic aliphatic lactones in
tobacco smoke. Professor Dickens has already
shown that some aliphatic lactones are mildly
carcinogenic by means of the technique of sub-
c,itaneousinjection into rate, and since lactones
of a closely similar chemical type occur in a wide
variety of plant materials it is possible that they
are present also in tobacco. They would almost
C:D
certainly be volatile and would appear as such in co
the smoke. Professor Dickens would endeavour botli
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to carry out the chemical separation of the lactones
from the smoke and a subsequent bio-assay of the
fraction. This work has been in hand for a year,
and comes up for review after a further yearg when
in all it will have cost fA,000.
I have not sufficient time to deal adequately
with Dr. Dean's important epidemiological studies of
the difference in lung cancer incidence between recently
immigrant and native born residents in South Africa
and Australia so I will not attempt a hurried sketch.
It must suffice to report that this work strongly
suggests an association of lung cancer and environment.
Psychosomatic investigations have not been
neglected, and t@e continuing work of Dr. Eysenck
has brought out that, whatever may be the reason,
smoking habits are not distributed at random over
the various psychological types of person. Whether
there is a causal connection, end whether heavy
smoking causes certain psychological.attitudes, or
people having those characteristics tend to smoke
heavily is not known, but there doe; appear to be
some association.
One result of the recent public discussions
on smoking and health must have been to make each of
us examine whether smoking is just a habit of addiction
or has any positive benefits. -It is my conviction
that nicotine is a very remarkable beneficent drug
that both helps the body to resist external.stress
and also.can as a result show a pronounced tranquillising
effect. You are all aware-of the very great increase
in the use of artificial controls, stimulantsg tran- C:)
C=>
quillisers, sleeping pills, and it is a fact that under --4
modern conditions of life people find that they cannot C=>
co
depend just on their subconscious reactions to meet the C=)@
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BAT Industries document for Province of British Columbia 10 November 2000
BAT INDUSTRIES 00290681
16*
various environmental strains with which they are
confronted: they must have drugs available which
they can take when they feel the need, Nicotine
is not only a very fine drug, but the techniques
of administration by smoking has considerable
psychological advantages and a built-in control
against excessive absorption. It is almost im-
possible to take an overdose of nicotine in the
way it is only too easy to do with sleeping pills.
Perhaps, therefore, in the midst of all this con-
sideration of the possible harmful effects of
smoking you will be pleased to hear that T.M.S.Cl
is supporting work to elucidate the effects of
nicotine as a beneficent alkaloid drug.
We have almost completed arrangements to
support Dr. 11. J. Rand at the London School of
Pharmacy to investigate whether cigarette smoke
produces effects on the central nervous system
characteristic of tranquillising or stimulating
drugs and, if so, to see if such activity is due
solely to nicotine. The cost is likely to be
about EL3,000 in three years,
We attach so much importance to this
aspect of our research that we are proposing
to start active work at Harrogate with our own
pe.rmanent staff. Arrangementa are practically
completed with Dre Armitage to start at Harrogate
to work on the pharmacology of smoke, and we are
fortunate in having the distinguished Dr. Burn to
.act as consultant and advise us on the direction
of this work.
I have been hurrying my account in order
to have time to do justice to some more general
researches, our support for which arises out of
the point of view I referred to earlier, that
progress in knowledge of lplng cancer may well
arise from some fundamental advance in studying
cancer generally,
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BAT Industriesocument forProvinceof British olumbia 10 November 2000
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17.
Viruses that produce cancer are now the
subject of active research in many countries, and
over here tli(@rcis an active o
progrs4Tnrnef work at
the Chester Deatty Institute. Tumour viruses can
be found in certain animal tumours [the Rous chicken
tumour, the Sliope papilloma of the rabbit, mammary
cnliccr of mice, and carcinoina of the kidney in the
fro,- ELmong others], but not so far in any human
3
tuniour. Recently it has been shown that virus-like
agents caii be recovered from many mouse tumours with
the property of causing a wide range of cancers in
various strains in which they would not ordinarily
be seen. Professor Haddow, the Director of the .
Chester Beatty, was particularly interested in this
development and suggested T.M.S.C. might support a
young Australian, Dr. Miller, to work in this subject.
He is studying lymphocytic leukaemia in mice and
observing the effect of certain viruses on the progress
of this disease. It is of interest that some unknown
genetic effects are involved since the effect is quite
specific to certain strains of mice, and also the
*thymus must be present. The*disease does not develop
in thymectomised mice. I cannot pretend to understand
these complicated and specialised matters but I feel
sure you will agree that progress in understanding
factors which accelerate or cause regression of a
tumour marks the beginning of bringing cancer as a
disease under control. T.M.S.C. have made a
grant of 425,000 to be spread over five years.
What is particularly interesting to us is -that Dr.
Miller is being led to some experiments on immunising
his mice against the occurrence of this leukaemia.0
This theme of i=unisation occurs in two other of
our fundamental researches.
Thymus - a ductless gland-like body which reaches
its maximum development during early
childhood, cm
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is.
Ptofessor Haddow started some experiments
four to five years ago in which a fortified antigen
was made from a cliemically-induced rat sarcomata
and re-injected into the same ariimal to test for
evidence of any kind of reaction against the remain-
ing primary tumc)ur. - Such earcomata were used
because they are almost entirely refractory to any
kind of interference and never regress spontaneously.
These.experiments were entirely negative
except for the unprecedented observation that in one
animal so treated the primary sarcoma entirely dis-
appeared. The rat died tumour free at an advanced
age two years later. Professor Haddow realises
only too clearly from his wide experience that this
may have been a freak phenomenon, but yet similar
behaviour lias leen observed during the past year in
a small proportion of rate subjected only to autopiasy
from the primary tumour. There is now no doubt of
the reality of the phenomenon, nor of its theoretical
importance, but its interpretation is obscure.
Professor Haddow is now endeavouring to find out
how this effect can be enhanced, by prior treatment
of the autograph by X-radiation$ alkylation, exposure
to specific polyeaccharides, alntigenic fortification
and other meaiis. No one is more experienced than
Professor Haddow in the pitfalls in this kind of
research, but he is convinced that this line must
be followed up. Work on a scale adequate to take
all the very necessary precautions against error
is expezi3ive, and preliminary estimates suggest
that at least E60,000 will be necessary :Lnthe
first three years.
Professor Buttle, working at the London
School of'Phalmacology, is studying the factors
influencing the transplanting of tumours. A
ti(?althy rat was found able to reject a transplanted
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19.
t,imourby means of its normal defence mechELnismst
but if cortisone had previously been injected over
a period the tumour, when transplanted, grew like
ordinary cancerous tissue. liowcortisonep or
rather its reduced form, hydrocortisonev is a
normal constituent of the body liberated in the
blood-by the cortex of the adrenal glands, so we
have here am example of how-changes in functioning
of the body can determine whether a transplanted
tumour will be accepted or rejected. This
research will be supported by 412,000 over 3 to
4 years.
I shall not spend further time on these
extremely interesting fundamental researches except
to remark that 1 personally attach the greatest
importance to our association with them,. It is
at least a possibility, if not a probability, that
within the next few years great advances will be
made in understanding what factors influence the
growth and what the regression of tumours. if
tobacco smoke has indeed any effect in stimulating
the growth of tumoure it may well be by a remote
pathway that we-should not have the slightest chance
of detecting without contact with the experts in
this field.
You are of course aware that smoking, by
means of its nicotine content, is supposed to have
an effect on the cardiovascular system. T.M.S.C.
has agreed to contribute 912,000 over'three years
to Dr. Shillingford of the Cardiovascular ilesearch
Group of the Medical Research Council to enable them
to extend their experiments to cover the effects of
nicotine. We think that it is well worth while
having this work carried out by a skilled authori-
tative group with which we will have close contact.
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It is the case that most previous work on
the effects of nicotine on the cardiovascular system
has been done with old techniques, and much of it
is of doubtful qitality. What T.M.S.C. believes is
of particular importance is that Shillingford has
developed entirely new techniques for analysing
heart function and circulation in health and disease.
These are based on observing changes in blood-flow
by the use of short-lived radioisotopes which, for
example, make it possible t.0measure the heart out-
put every five minutes for an hour without using
the old-fashioned catheter. You will be interested
to know that Dr. Shillingford accepts the existence
of beneficial effects.of smoking and believes that
althou,ghnicotine undoubtedly affects the cardio-
vascular system these effects are probably quite
f
ijiriocuousor normal healthy people.
This seems to be the place where a reference
to the research activities of T.I.R.C. would be
appropriate. You are probably aware that shortly
after its formation in-December, 1953, T.I.R.C. invited
certain doctors and scientists well known for their work
in cancer and other diseases to serve on a Scientific
Advisory Board to run a grants-in-aid progrnmme. The
Scientific Advisory Board has full responsibility for
research policy and programming, but does not itself
directly engage in research for the T.I.R.C., and
the T.I.R.C. itself does not operate any research
facility. The progrptnme, therefore, consists entirely
of items like I have jubt described in connection
with Professor Haddow and Professor Buttle, and there
is nothing to correspond to Harrogate. In 1961
T.I.R.C. were making grants to more than 120 scientists
in over 80 hospitals, universities and research
institutions at a current annual level approaching
one and a half million dollars. This programme
constitutes a large and generous support to the
-investigation of lung and cardiovascular diseases in
C:=)
the widest sense made to independent scientists who
ate assured complete scientific freedom in conducting
'their researches and publii3hing their results. c::)
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I hiivejiowtouched on the major ilivestiga*tions
inrke tip the T.M.S.C. progr;tmme of researcii, alid
to
I c-L)iiie ttiereal point of my paper, which is to ack
for your views on the extent to which this progrELmme
can claim to be well-conceived and adequate, and in
what i-espects it needs amplification or modification.
a
'P)iese re difficul@ questions, and to answer
them we i-@.quiresome Iiind of yardstick by which to
measur(- alir-jiidgment. We might, for example, al;oume
soriie forseeable
.,.,i.r@on:tblc success in the experimerits
cz:qi@,ire
az-),-l tlii.-i
licjw vtill affect our position in
-ti,:)ij some attack like that of titeR.C.P.
rf,@i to
rcmind you that titis was P-).inont
I i.,.izt entirt-ly ELri
conclusion, but our attitude to iL 'Aill
eii)otional
certairj.y be profoundly affected of
by the oiztcc)nie
liari,oeate @xperiment
-tl,@e to compare fresh and old
coiidensate. If fresh condensate has a smaller
biological effect than old condensate we do not of
course at one stroke destroy the emotional conclusion
itt fact it rcmains unaltered - but we do clear the
dccks of a great deal of previous experimentation
al,d snoke condensate will then be accepted as such
a carcinogenic agent that other explanations
of the association of smoking and lung cancer ,-.;:jiune
@;reater importance. Conversely, and this is aiways
a possibility, the biological effect may increase os
the condensate is used fresher and fresher. This
possibility need not dismay us, indeed it would mean
that there really was a chemical culprit somewhere in
smoke, and one, moreover, that underwent a reaction
fairly quickly to something else. I feel confident'.
that in this case we could identify this groul) -of
substances, and it would be worth almost arq effort,
by preliminary treatment, additives, or filtration,
to get rid of it. We should have broizght,the problem
out into the open where It could be attacked. I feel
sure you will.give your full support to this experiment.
OD
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I regard the attempt to probe more dec@p."L@-
t
ilit.o)iccauge of irritation as equally fundanental.
ciiicilic
SLiniL! is irritating, i3moke:i-Is cougli is a 'reali.ty,
be
e,idit cnii!ir)t good fur health to cause thi.,,
or not this irritation has any
irritp..'-JOTI ;v!iether
effect on the incidence of lung cancer. Some of
you Play ieenrd irritation as so important tllat yt-)ij
t-
F.ri=7iill.i!lr- make a gues:§. and attribute it with
b-it little evidence to a class of compounds such
as nldcllydes, or you may be ready to tEL)rea siort
cut and attempt to identify irritation by an
leptic tecliniqiie. This is a matter on -6hi;--hI bopi-,
you will express your views. Personally I think
the T.M.S.C. policy is right; this subject of
irritation is just too important to-incur the danger
of reaching a wrong conclusion due to a faulty
technique. Once we have solved the problem of
establishing a quantitative test progress in identi-
fying irritating components will be rapid. Whether
their removal will be easy is another question, but
to identify them will be a good first step.
The comparative bio-assay of fermented and
flue-cured tobacco is admittedly rather a bludgeon
t3-pe experiment, but you get committed to these when
there is an emotional atmosphere. The results o@ the
experiment will certainly be interesting, but whether
or not they will be interpretable is quite another
matter. It..is possible that the bio-assays may
differ significelntly, and if the themical composition
of the two condenea-tes aiso differ in some marked way
we should be a long way further in'identifying an
active component, but I feel it is unlikely that.the
-result will be as a
clear-cut s this. However, this
is an experiment that had to be done, and one areat
thing in its favour is that we are receiving the
active help of various scientists prominent in M.R.C.
The important thing is that the technique thr oughout
should be of the highest possible standard, and of
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this we can assure you.
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23.
The other major T.M.S.C. experiment is the
epidemiological investigation of Reid into the possible
existence of a susceptible sub-group. It will be a
long time before we see results from this, but it had
to be done. The other epidemiological experiments
went.v ery near to beggihg the question by collecting
evidence
* only on smoking and.lung cancer without
following with equal care the other important events
in each case history.
Thus, it will be at least two years before
any of our four major experiments begin to yield
significant results. ' You may well be impatient
at this delay, but I can see no way of speeding the
work. What I would like to emphasize is that there
is a high probability that in each case the results
will have an important effect on our thinking, and
will give us facts on which to proceed. You might
well voice the criticism that it has taken T.M.S.C.
a long time to arrive at the point of having good
progrpmme, and you would be right, but knowing'all
the difficulties and realising that our own thinking
had to develop I do not myself think that we had any
real chance of starting more than a year earlier.
Incidentally, the M.R.C., with the Industry's ample
grant, never really started at all, and they have
now-alMOBt used it up.
An,vway, the conclusion to be drawn is quite
clear; we must do better in the future, and in my
opinion that means that all members of the Group must
feel a continuing and serious responsibility for this
/
programme. Current literature and the events in 'your
own country should be continuously studied and your
views sent here so that they can be effective at
T*MoSeCe I want to state, with no exaggeration
whatsoever, that the continuous focussing of your
brains on this problem, and with your opinions CZ)
articulately expressed to this central body, could --4
C=)
have a profound effect on the development of the co
investigation,
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Ve 3ppreciate that to achieve this end we
yolt
mlist k,,.---p supplied with information how the
work progresses, and it has been decided
that a lieriodical news-letter will be circulated.
iinl)ortant
Ariothei- point is that either to-
time you way wish to propose
day oi,r-tsome fiittire
some ctlierbiological or medicul investii;ation.
I assure you any suggestion you may Eend iii
can
will be immediately examined with all the car(@we
nre capable of giviiigto it.
Now, as regards work in our own laboratories
on chemistry and physics. Our objective must be to
pi-epareourselves as fully as possible to utilise any
t
-rrsillt he mom?zit it appears from these biological
zindmedical experiments. In effect, this means
would like to know the origin of all the
tl)@it we
cc;ipoundsthat we currently think may be important,
they
vyliei:licr are wholly or partially distilled from
the tobacco or formed in some of the pyrolytic reactionst
B-ndat wliat temperatures. We might then hope to be
in the position of being able to enhance or suppress
certain classes of compounds by either pre-treatment
or additives onde we knew which compounds had -tobe
s-, '-,i'l-tienced.
This of course is precisely what;we have
and are doing, and in my opinion progrrqs
been dciiqr,
13 excellent. A great number of individual projects
in the va7-icus program-es contain elements which licai.-
directly on this central theme of acquiring tliot
knowledge wlilchwill make it possible to modify the
amok'e. In the majority of cases there are aspects
of these projects which seem likely to have competitive
commercial interest, and it would complicate azidretard
the work to attempt to disentangle them now. After
a review of what we are doing my own opinion in that
we need no modification in our current joint efforts
on chemical.and physical workt but other views may
etnerge.in the discussion.
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We must admit that the threat-to our industit
is serious and very real, and it is of little help to
us that it is based on an emotional guess and not on
reasons, I believe we are now starting on a sound
programme of investigation that in a few years will
make-it possible to see the situation and judge the
future much more clearly. -I hope to-day's die-
cussion will start your active participation in this
particular section of Group Research, and that the
measures we propose will enable it to continue ar-d
grow,
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T, ION
in
P. Arde7-L;otl, cpeiiirg the dii3curslor)pempbasii3ed the
of
i-mpa-t,;ttire all deleg!Ltos m-.kingtheir views known, since he could only
Cf-ithe tin;tiin ttiogroup to woxk togetbei if they were wlilirig,
g,i;l lb-3 be
orlr pi-esru7-.e could.bring to beer was the collective wish of
J research progra=es in the various laboratories
0f,bors. T't)ondiv-1--iual
by gzuuple policy on researah and health, and this
were @--olouiefi tb.e
;@greeme!it to what the pollej should be.
Yieccissltv.tcd as
to Sir
'r@u-tilrisl Charles' paper, Mr. Anderson found thottthe
o.tputling all beslttlresearch on an J.ndustrybasis left us
Hey we
e,fic-.ulties. would lake to ask "I)o want to
wtth eei-t.-ilr)
)U-Ilre
;i@'gis If ffedid, vere ve going to be at -the
mercy rf ev,3x.@-ine wlio, I Ike Wyn-ior aiid. lo;-i2larct, came along with
c3c,nic-tb@l.t,g they usil ougbt i@ot to te in tobacco smoke?
riii,b We
t-3@Ler- vveit ii-ti@ilthis I,Appened and ttien iry to do somethizxg
,)@.,)uk it.. or ego @r-uld aim a-t getting there first which meant getting
xr.,,olved in 4.esfirig. This posed a further questions
113r7e@.gjim ttieT.I.R.C. the right places to condliet
Wei-,g aii-i reseatch
fci- oij Ltie@--,o matters?
importayi+. Would the T.M.S.C. be able
to co@,ewi@b @lle rifwork involved?
ftm..,iint Mr. Anderson felt that
ttja7,e f
te eit.-uegalo-rthe T.M.S@C. ind that Ito staff abould
,ip#.-rmaT,et-I
1.9c..r, so
bi:Li;ij t@natit could.do czeative work Itself
i-,f
b"ir@g +o,)
t-.Idifl)iit do. nnd he Invited the
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views of delegates on this question. He also thought that the policy an
research should be reviewed at regular intervals to take account of
contemporary developments from outside and of the information oozing from
the T.M.S.C. research progrg a itself, and suggested the formation of
a Research Policy Committee not only to have a say in what was going
on at Harrogate but also to guide the Company in forxulating its group
research policy.
Mr. McCo=ick referred to the question of policy as regards
a safe cigarette, presupposing that we know what a safe cigarette was.
The policy of the board was that if such a thing became possible, and
the B-A.T. happened to hit on it, the information would be made
i=eiiately available to every single Company in the tobacco industry.
Turning to the question of who dictated the research policy of the
T.M.S.C. he pointed out that the T.M.S.C. was merely the sum of the
individual members, and that the initiative for research came from
two sourceat outside medical people such as Haddow and others that
Sir Charles had mentioned, and scientists employed by the individual
member Companies. If wqone was dissatisfied with the research
programme the remedy was in his own hands.
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Committee did not authorise aiW item of expenditure until
Tte Fxecuti-@re
advised by the Technioul SUE-CO=itt0s, and to date the number ot projects
that had been turned d(nn-ioughly equalled the number that had been accepted.
He thought it misle&dj-ngto compare expenditure on research with that or
&&
adver-tisljjg, he IL&dbeen told that absence of useful research findings
during the Iasi ten yeazs wun not due to lank of tun" but rather to lack of
researoh !-deanaiidof people wJ-I.IirAg pursue +hem.
to If there were
'brtgblt
i3ufficier.1 coupled.
id+e6%s with scientists to undertake them the industryin
expendJ-@ui-e reee%r--@tn
on migtt well e.tce&cl
that on advertising. The T.I.R.C.
in
had just the same diftioiil.ty findjng people to wbom to make useful grants.
he at
Mr, Ard-traon'said was oonoerried the difficulty of recruiting
t
pe-opleto cor,3uc-the pi-ogtpmmeof i-e"axob at Harrogate, and wondered
"hether the f-kcilitiep4Nni2%blo there were scoeptable to the group.
lo-Lortego7o dekails of the way in which OmAda w&s
t-ack.],JZ)6 hei<h prob).f4m. In 1954 a Tobacco ResearobLFund was set up
the
i caiicerwith no strings attached.
for xea&&rc-.britoJu-P)g The initial
cortributior wss OIC)O?QL)09bl3 ligure being i-spentedin 1956 and again
k
in 1959. The PTOBLPM b
@jjL4! ee-nto t b
spe-.ndhe moz)e.Tvecause although
scientiet6 might he w3lling to w.3rkon caroor in getioral
m,ifilca) they
weire noL e
at bej-lugc)rfinedto lung cancer. He
tbought It qujt'.3 pliBeit,.Io that t-e =@riulartarere would be approackled
to p-,r=J.t th-2-itat c%f tbe Cluii;-j
ft.r othor PTOJGota wtiioh were not
d!xectly relate@4t ic, lwkg ct--n,@erbat wixioh did have a b"raxxg on the
health qiastiolu. "Reforr!mg to the proxmmme which Sir CbAtiloo had,
be WILS lellgalt to see the docision by the ind-aatry
ed in
outlir-eit
i
the U.K. n.,ton.1j,.o -ree#amh on the beillth problem a
't,7itlso
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projects.
to init-luti@e He tbought the tobacco industr7 in the world at large
but a medical problem,
had taken the attitude that this was not their problern
and the time had now come when we had to look at it somewhat differently.
Dr.S.J'.Green said he was ver7 interested in the last remark, because
when he joined the B-A.T. he was horrified to find that a Company of such size
and with Bo much at stake had no moclicaldepartmenti by this he did not moan an
experimental medical department but merely a set-up to pravide the public relations
people with the necessary information and to give advice when wanted. Turning
to the broader aspects of policy, he wanted to consider how a Company in the
position in our industry could beat be protected; and the position was a serious
one - in fact he thought we should adopt the attitude that the causal link between
smoking and lung cancer was proven, because then at least we coul& not be any worse
off., If we assumed that the statistical evidence, based on epidemiological studies..
Was going to get Bti-onger,this meant that animal experiments would become less
relevant. Supposing the Company had a turnover of 1000 million units to protect,
it would be a reabonable insurance premium to pay 1% (i.e. 1()million units)
insuring that turnover. Far from putting all this into scientific research he
would like to suggest allocating 4-5 million units to financial diversification
and another 2-3 million units to technical diversification;I million units could.
be spent on public relations, leavirg 1-2 milljon units at the outside for expandl'ng
existing research. This research vork should not be restricted to the health
qUeBtion, but ohouid in part be directed tuw rds technical diversification,tvw rds
helping public relations etc.. Thip would leave about 0,1% of turnov.srfor effort
into the health question. This work should be carrjed out at thr6p levels or
three ranges. -
The first of these attbe very short term le'vel what might almost
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be called the gimmick level@ Here we should set ourselves cleilrobjectives
such as m-Aing A cigarette which confuimed with published infoxmation or even
popular belief whetherwe accepte4 that InfoimatJonor not. We were al'rea4
doing ae)meth@ng at thLIS leqel. Tne secorid level approach should be aimed at
helping the manuf,@cturerswith tbe*Lr immediate pioblems. We would also aim
f
to 7,emovc3 rom txwelirodac@,if -oe coultiregdily do i3o,whatever smoke
constituent was tbought to be undasjzsble quite regardless of wq
c.Lirretitly
biologicaltest. kt this level even a ci@emicalenglneat could make a useful
cortributioi)bu@ vieabo-ulino-tdaiiiieolitselvesthat this was fundamental
ret3ea*rcb. at present at this level.
We wete not doitigst,,yttlirig He thought
,we anould, baf not st. the expai@seof the b&aio woik we were alread3-doing.
a
The work South.%mptonwas doir..,gwasn 3ntegyal psrt of a fundamental
irTvesLigation muen aic)elat health as azjythingelse.
as LI.1-thework it
HaT'Togatewould also 'be at the longer zapigelevel. He did not think he was
com,petertto ccmmexitozithe detall uf the woxk at H&77-ogatebut thoaght the
Company-should have a pbvsiologist ot some direot medical advine before we
eoul,ie-,eii
plear) o dire,-ten-Aeroserz;!g progrszma.
t tbkt The reason why we
was the absen,,@erom the lndustT7 of adequate
diitnot get the bright i.-16RR f
pby&iologit-,al trarogtbto ioeet.
s the 'tiem-itb
problem. Tne tobacco Industry
was riota 7-esearc-b-b-i4el out was now facsodwith a pTOfOuncl
researeh proble-mwttiab vrouldaliake to the core wW large pharmaceutical
DT8%71ioStiOn, We were attempting to go! ideas from an orga"iostjon which
prok!lpnLA
wqs oet-up to -Lacit3o different level a.ri I.T)
PitAn er)tITo3iy quite
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Mr. McCormick asked haw, in the event of a cigarette modified in the
way I)r.Green suggested becoming eLpossibility, the industry was going to-advartise
it an& sell it. We would be faced with a oo=eroial problem which had arisen
previously over filters, namely how to justifv continuing the sale of other brands.
Dr. Green admitted that this was an extremely difficult policy decision
which someone had to take but he felt this diffioultv did not justif.Tinaction.
Mr. McComiok continued that by his question he was seeking to explain
why, for some years, the industry had found it hard to play about with gimmick
cigarettes,because if it did so it would be admitting that some of its products
already on the market might be harmful. This would create a very difficult
public relations situation. The fact was that the industry had slowly been
pushed, by Wynclerand other people, into the marketing of filter tip brands.
Sir Charles said it appeared to him that Dr. Green did not trust the
oo-operativeaction of the T.M.S.C.p who were recruiting physiologists and
pha=oologisto as fast in they could and with money no object, but would
prefer the individual member companies to engage their own physiologists.
Dr. Green replied that he knew little about T.M.S.C. but felt it
needed a more creative element. Asked by Sir Charles why the people up in
Ha=ogate should not be creative he said that, in his opinion, with a programs
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laid do%vn vthich they had to follow and a budg et for each item theywould
necossarily bo restricted. There was no encouragement for them to think
out!ii-dethat programme.
t-iccom-ick aid that ever since the industry had first made its
t,,,r. s
donation in 1954 it had been widely known, through research circlest that there
to anyone who had bright ideas; the surprising
was this fund available from the M@.,R.C.
thing was that over tho years insufficient people had come forward.
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Mr. laporte asked whothei, in relation to the T.M.S.C. research
programme, the scientists engaged would be allowed to publish their findings.
In reply both Sir Charles and Mr. Hobson agreed that this would be neoeas=7
and had already been accepted.
Sir Charles went on to say that the new laborator7 at Harrogate would
p
be a nice place to work in wj.tb.lenty of room to expand# but pointed out that
good.resea7oh men were not all that easy to get. They already had a man to ran
the animal experiments; however this entailed rather unimaginative sort of work,
and the irritation and pharmacological experiments were the first attempt really
to stimulate thougbtl in addition the possibility had been discuBseE of offering
facilities to Fh.P. students. Any suggestions regarding additional items for the
programme would be weloomed, ard.if any problem was shuwz to be worth tackling the
money would be forthcoming and the facilities made available - probably more quiokly
at Harrogate than anywhere else.
Mr.E.C. FieldBand referred -towhat he thought was a feeling of disquiet
that the T.M.S.C. had turned down oertain propositions, or had lot it be known
that some of the suggestions put forward could not be tackled for the momentt and
felt that it should be m&4e quite clear that this was only a temporarj phase. In
the early stages Jt was neoess%ry to be highly selective in the choice of research
t
problems unt-,tlhe organisa-tionhad settled down and got going. That was bound to
be the situation at EkYT09&te for a7voutthe first two years, Sir Charlas had said
there was lots of room on the sitep and it was to be hoped that a major expansion
would to-keplace so tbRI.A. reIRtively ).&Tgorproportion of the lnductry's research
go unA-e-f- induxtryle controls this was more likely
activj.tyce)uld into flax-rogqte the
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to produce the sort of results that everyone hoped to get, but in the meantime it
was neoessax7 to be patient.
wouldn't wait, and
Mr. McCormick felt that the outside world jui3t
mentioned the possibilitv of Government action.
Mr. Fieldsend pointed out that it was easy to be wise now, but if
Harrogate had started up two years earlier we should be in a much happier position.
Mr.W.W. Reid commented in some detail on the individual items in the
T.M.S.C. research programme. The bioassay experiment should be supported
completely as it was a thing we had to do; in the first place it would.settle
the question regarding the age of smoke condensate which Sir Charles had alreadv
referred to, and in the aeoon& place it would provide the means of checking the
more outlandish statements of people like Wynder. of
Investigation irritation
he supported,particularlyas it was close to his own interests,but thought it
should be tackled by two or three different biological methods. One principle
that should be remembered was that irritants acted at the level of the call,
and there was thus room for a biochemical approach to the problem on the lines
of the work done at Oxford during the war which showed that the irritant war
gases inhibited specific enzymes. The comparison of flue-cured with fermented
tobacco obviously had to be made, and might in fact yield more information than
some people expected; but he would like to be reassured that the M.R.C.'s part
of the work would represent an improvement both in quantity and in.quality over
the help which had been receive& from them in the past.
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Investigation of the beneficial effects of nicotine was a most important item.
Professor Larson of the Medical College, Virginia,-had recently dreiinhir.
attention to some work by Prof.K.G. Schmiterloiv of the Royal Veterinary qolleg@,.
Stockholm, who by using radiographic techniques had shown that nlcotine'is
absorbed into the central nervous system and then released as the first degradation
product, cotinine. The latter was arousing considerable interest as a potentially
useful drug and possi-bletherapeutic agent." The remaining items.h(twoijldnot
on
co-rnent as he did not know enough about them, but would support their inclusion
in the prograrine. In general he thought the approach was in the ridht direction
but the tot3l effort was a-bit small. One thing he %@ould like to see included was
of
a sttidy methods for measuring inhalation and the degree of absorption of
sutstances from smoke. We should bear in mind that smoke was an aerosol comprising
material which was probably not very readily excreted.and might easily be deposited
on the lung tissue leading to a barrier effect. This was a point v4hich he had
just discussed with Dr. Hockett of the T.I.R.C.
Turning to the immediate problem,.WLr.Reid thought there were certain
things we cpuld do to bridge the gap until results started to come.from Harrogate.
The one thing we had to go on,was the general qlkalitiof the product we sold, which
in this.instancewas smoke; and we could at least adopt the attitude that if there.
were substances In smoke which we felt might possibly be inimical to health it
would be a good Idea to remove them, and although there would-be no proof that we
had achieved anything from the health angle we would be making a pos-itiveaprroach
and, if nothing else, improving the qualiiy of the productd. The vexed question
here was how much work should be done at Harroga ti and how much by the int@ustry.
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Ht,supported the programme of the T.M.S.C., but thought there was room for.what
might be called a simpler type of biological work which could be done nearerthome.
Ine reason was that his Company, like any other Company, were often asked,for
monpy to supi)ortresearch, and he felt it viouldbe better if they could channel
some of these requosts into problems which would be of some use to them. For
to
;-nstancetvio years ago they had presented ;E50,OC)O the Plasma Physics Laboratory,
the people there %vere.doing very good work, but if in future.
S@ciney; do,-,htless
such donations could be channelled into projects of the Company's own choosing the
Company would benefit and r;ouldstill be doing a good job from the public relations
point of viev:.
Sir Charles was inclined to agree that, from what hir.Pcid had just said,
on
the t,,,ork irritation should be extended as soon as possible to include a
bioche,nist;but at "he some tine he thought it essential that they should first
recruit their two physiologists for precisely the reason thnt Dr.Creen had been
stressing. The T.M.S.C. did not want to commit themselves too jefinitely to any
specific problem until they had built up a body of good physiological and
pharmacological c
research men at Marrogat e who could determine their -)tyn letailed
experiments.
LE.-@@wanted to know whether he was right in thin'&-Ingtiiet it
not necessarily the Intention for the whole programme to b@etacklc-d "t
t-:as
-qarrogate,but that certain items might be farmed out to medical scientis-:5V!ho
had the facilities to handle them.
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Sir Charles replied that there was an advantage in doing as much of
the work as r)ossibleat Harrogate, because if you had a number of phys.1ologisis
etc. in your own employ working to a programme which you yourself had approved
It %.jas imple to see whether they kept to the programme, vvhereas if you made a
s
grant to a university they could within limits do what they liked with it.
Mr. Laporte suggested that the physiologists at Harrogate might
themselves farm out some of the work, but keep close enough track of it to see
that It WAD done,
Mr. Reid said that he doubted whether it was wise for biological work
to'be divorced completely from the work going on in tobacco research laboratories,
partly because he was inherently sceptical about the way in which biological tests
were carried out. He felt there might be some argument for extending the.
activities of the individual laboratories to include some form of blological
testing, though not at the whole animal level. This might lead to the development
of bioassay methods, and would certainly encourage those working on the chemical side
to think In terms of the physiological implications. At present'there riasa danger
I
of dividing tobacco research into two separate blocks, with chemists ancl,)hysicists
In one and biologists In the other, and with neither thinking outside their own
field.
par,-icular
in
Mr. McCormick asked whether it vwasnot a fact that Dr. 'Day, who tv,3s
charge pf bioassay at Harrogate, had retained his'.teaton the M.R.C. corrmit-.ee.
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Si, Charles confiT,-Ped this, and str@ssed the inte!iti:)nof !,,J:lc.l@ng
c@ at
orgaril.sati-on Hari-ogate ,rh;-c!i fc)rinul;,.to ii,s
-,:.,Dulci
an(' n:@t be di-ctated zo fTOn apywhere. F)csiLivc-
Once ttiathad been aciiievc-d
@-.,,.)uld
be takcr tcjensuz-c pdo-,,jate the staff thcre @indthe
laboiatcrie5.
5c,Lcnt@Gtsin our o@-!n
tc) tie-Tewere any c-imnentson his
k-ih,,ther
ruoicstion for inor:@,,;.ng
the CU3!ity Of vi;-,I-cll
the product, an ap!.-..roa.:ti clidnot
tc@,ting-nL;
i@ntailtiol.ogiccil could be done -.!jith
viiiicii exi!;tl!lg
iL v.-as having*
'Icro-mickas!,edliL.-.-; proposecito sell t;ucha i)r@-,,3uc'-,
e-ier-iti,iingtb.,it
i.aker. :),it could i)egot out.
in
@)r.Gr@-i@!n turr.asked how Concyl - treated cigare-Lics
!.!cC(,rriick
replied that up t;-Ilnow they sirnplyhad not sa*-.d
anI'Lhirg them.
,"r. ifid explained that his idea was only to.charige
.. the in so far
at; @,'cCormic!,
eilrer improved the flz!vouror left the flavour unc@angeci,3rd @.tr.
: thing to do.
-.eed that this seemed a highly desirelblis
Gibb, referringto Dr. Green's outline of f
lc,.rel.s
sazldthat we v.-ere ontinually-confronted with a sitL;,-t,-or, s--.-..-mbody
P-cti-,.Iity, c r:,'ipre
in the industry did something,and we had to follow suit bec3use it might be a good
to
'@-hing do. This wdsted a great deal of time, and very rarely d4,danythirigcome
out :@fIt. m not wli;3the A.-ictsvo.-cut
Vie really needed so:,-eeans of kn;)%-.,ir.,) t . b
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vvhatpeople thought the facts viere. On the question of how-to sell a gimmick,
-
certainly on the Canadian market you stated %vhat you thought people.wente d to be
told, and you made money by doing so. going
This i-ias to hapl@en more and more,,
and ttleresult of this approach viould depend on what sort-of compotion you were up
against. The people who had to make the decisions had very little to go on
except their own experience.
Viide agreed that the situation in the States vias.very similar;
@.1r.T.M..
t.heysoent a lot of time discussing the possi'@ility of taking a particular action
and t@,en later had to decide.whether they v@ould or v.-ouldnot. The chief factor In
all tiiisviasthe public taste.
that we shoulciric-t.)sf!t
Dr. Green thought it most i,-.iport2nt u tie
b
continuity of our research program-.ie y diverting effort onto this other level
of activity. like to see was an expansion of the grc-up's activities,
Vihat he i-iould
sort
either at Southampton cr elsev;here, so that we could react immediately to T.,iis
of situation without interfering with research.-
supported this view, and emphasised the neces5ity
I'iade for
adequate exchange of ina'ormation. His Company pten:)l
did get some Ydarnir;gof '6.he
crisis, and it was possible that the next two or three were already named.
Mr. Reid asked %ihether it would not be within the group's ordgram-ne
to reconsider those substances which might have a potential hpalth indication from
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the che.Tical poin,6 of view so that they could be covered, thus preventing the.'
nece3sity for a sudden switch of forces.
@@7. Ylobson thouaht that If this suggestion %vere follov4ed tre
substances covered inould not co,-neup In the way that phenols.had. The )henol*
situati-on had only arisen becacse somebody vras prepared to take commercial
of
a-]\.-antage it; had it been common knoviledge among all the firms ;-twould not
iAr. i?eidsaid that if you follot%,ed t;ynder's
' policy he was always going
one stop back because he couldn't explain his findings. His fi-@st theory Viis
carcinoner,s, but that didn't fit so he look2d for co-carcinogens and picked on
phcriols,end if that didn't fit it viculdprobably be somethina els'e. Vlith a
likely
little bit of reasonable guessing ive could cover some of the thirigs he v.,as
already
to pick on anc!still keep our r)rog.-arne-going.any of them %verenroL,-.t,".y
M
but some might need to be given higher priority.
in individualprogram-Pes,
Dr. Green reiteratedhit view that effort should be availablefor
tacklingthis kind of work without interruptinglong term research. It was no
good having to keep on deflecting effort fr'om funoamental'progranne
a which ijas
rather small anyway. doing at the ftindawrital
If %yebelieved that what voe.,Aere
level was the right thing to do it was ver@ importantto guarartee continuity.
Sir Charles asked if tiecouldpredict the next two crises.
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Roicl replied that at a guess volatile acids might be one,
l.',r.
and that Irritant aldehydes and ketones might be another.
.qir Chal:les suggested that the reason why phenols were chosen wa-s
that they didn't happen to find a selective filter for these other
sirp[)Iy
3u@stances,
problem
one aspect of th.@@
Dr.R.B. Gri.ffith said there y,.,as of vihich
tio wns convinesd befoxe ateocia'@ud 6.iroctly vitth ti',,-i
ho 1,,)ecpine 6ridu5tryl @'ind
that was,the need for a positive approach. In the United States the industry
had adopted a negative approach to the health question, tending to deny any
conrection, and this was very bad Public relations value. Y.-ould
'P,'e prefe.-
to see a positive approach taken particularly now that the report of the Royal
College of Physicians had given us the chance. Ileshould take the lina that
so that if there does happen to be anythin@,,
vievjill start up a program,.ie li.@.rmful
In our product we will find 1'6and eliminate it. the ap!)roach
That in fact -,vas
being adopted by the T.I@..S.C,as outlined by Sir Charles. It in encotiraging
sign that the Industry was prepared to spend so much money over Harrogate, and the
naximum public relations use should be made of this fact.
Turning to Dr. Green's remarks on creative thought, he cILd not telieve
that people outside the industry were In cl6se-enough contact with the ir7(JlJstry's
problemz to think creatively. it had been a real education to him to bccome
involved at the policy level and to rea.lisethe Influence that this could have on
creative thought. He even doubted tqhether many of the industry's own sc,-entists
were in close enough contact with day to day a ffairs to appreciate some of tL'.,e
C:)
problems which existed.
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On the 5pecific phenol question, had very serious
orepared for ,t .3iid;i,,t ad
in the Li)itedStates, his Com;)any had not b2(..i) t h
placed thrm i-n a very aw"-v,,ard
position. he
'.-.hen and Kr. 'Nadereturned to the
States find an,article on the phenol question in Pc.-@dcrs igest
thpy might v.-oll D
-..-3uld
-ti@,ich ti-i.-igs
M3'@-e even r.-orsef6r them unless they had the boric krowled-ge
viould place thorn l@,nhe besl compltitive position w i,L
to make decisions t,.t,'zh t III
Lorillard, ind in t,) q
i'%IcCormick's @.estion aboull hov4 you sell such a
in
prod;jctj the States they didn't have to ivorryabout t!latas i'caders Digest
sold i@ for LIEM. strongly that we should re-examine our entire
He felt v...,ry
effort arci have so.,n? rganisation wli*@chcould deal with t@ic?se
r-asiarc!i. o orobl.:,rs
when they arose. had not boon eoulop2d to tzckle the p.)ir-,nol
Brown anci*.iilliamson
cris!5, implications were such t!iat they hacl '-de2n
bu*l the co,-@ipetitivT t')
forc,:@d
do so. They liednow got the job done 3nd he felt that tticyhad tiieba@:ic,
v.-hich
infOYI'.13tiOn they renuireci, but at the expense of stopplnrj th@@r
r
fun-jain2ntal esearch ellfort.
Fi-nally he v.,aited stress the need for adequate liai7,0n- '.'Y
to - E@j c
-@.-)d -tie!re
li@? particularly conscious of this becaus3 of the distarce z;Li)arited
c
the.n from '@.he ontre of activities. They heard of many of the group's act;-vities
happened to mention them, and until now hod r,@)t
thr.iugh visitors .,iho been awz:re
of any of t!iodetails concerning the programne which Sir,Charles had prL@s-@nti-ci.
asked whether it was true that the reason underl-i-lp,,-
1.'icCcrmick
the phenol crisis t@tasthe situation of tliii
in the States vihere no.,)e
Com.-anies in the tobacco industry could pool their research, exc,-pt in the
tli
medical field; whereas in the U.K. he would like to thin:cthat.u,.i.,14-r '.*.:-...!..C.
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arrangement the knowledge would be_ayallable to all membersy.and.thus.pr-event
Aquafilter
any Company from seeking to gaIA"ift &-dvantage.' Tests on'.thti had'4
been carried out by the'T.M.S.C'. and the findings mide.known to all membbrs; as
o
a result of these tests it was decided to.persuade'.the'manufactur'er's f the
Aqua filter.not to advertise it in the way they had intended. If the T.M.S.C.
were asked,by anyone what they know about the Aqua*.filter they would be able to
publish a" paper immediately showing exactly what their findings had.been.
Mr. Laporte asked whether anyone In the group thought the phenol question
would have been made an issue of had it arisen froin any other source then the one
It actually came from.
?Ar.T.M. Wade replied that the phenol situation had been discussed for
roughly two years in the States, and had certainly been taken seriously*by-his
Company. He mentioned some work on catalysts which had been going on to see
they had any effect in reducing the production
-.%,hether of phenols. His Company
were not prepared to take commercial advantage of the health issue, but would
release information to the whole industry on a free basis if it proved to be of
any value.
Mr. Mcc0imick said this was the situation which worried us all, that of
the rogue Company which sought to take commercial advantage of anything they
happened to find. This was the whole.reason why in the U.K. the manufacturers
had.set themselves up in the way that they had, through the T.M.S.C; all
information was pooled, and it really did work. Where you hadn't got such.an CD
arrangement.there was always this danger.
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layorte pointed out that the situation was exactly the same if
you were going to enter the tar - nicotine race.
Implications were Buch that you
Dr. Griffith said the competiti-y-e
could not keep out of the race. and their previous experience with Readers
Digest illustrated this point. They had information which suggested that
the phenol situation might be taken up at the Washington level, due to
certain personal relationablips.
Mr. MoCormick emphasised that right from the start the industry
had been advised in the U.K. by a professional public relations consultant,
and the attitud-o it had been advised to take was that it did not deny the
possibility of a connection between smoking and lung cancer but would go in
for massive research, because that was the only way of coming up with the
answer. In the Statoo3 they had started to tackle the situation in the same
way for purely domestic reasons, but had also stuck onto it an organisation
called the Tobacco Institute which shouted from the house tops what the
industry's contribution to the country had been, oto., an approach which
had not gone down at all well over here since the publication of the R.C.P.
report. He wanted -toknow if there were ariy ideas as to how the industx7ls
case could be put over more positively.
Dr. Gri-ffiththought that in the U.K. we alreaiy had a
ooncentratedo ao-ordinated effort, and a similar approaob in the States
oould be of oonside-t,ablevalue. They could then take the position -tha-t
if there was anything harmful in smoke they wouli find it, Which was ver7
different from the denials and iiagative approach wbi--h they bt*xt so much about.
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Mr. j@,iccormick agreed that Harrogate and all the research that was
going on were of very considerable public relations value, bt!the wanted the
P.'Z.attitude to be even more positive than that.
flr.Reid suggested that no industry was going to accept that its
oroduct v;astoxic- or even believe it'to be so, and naturally when the health
question was first raised we had to start by denying it at the P.R. level. But
by continuing that policy we had got ourselves into a corner and left no room to
mamouvre in other words if we did get a break through and viereable to irnorove
our product we should have to about-face, and this was practically impossible at
the P.R. level. If we could ease the approach a bit, then when we did make
p3sitive contribut@ons we could at least say so without having to crawl behind
the door.
Mr. McCor-nickdid not quite agree that we in this country had got
ourselves into that position, although It might be true of other countries. We
had more room to manootmz"ber-ause,whatever we had said initially, in the last
year or two we had been prepared to admit that there was a working hypothp-sis which
ought to be examined. The fact that we had start.edwith a donation to the
had Indicated that we thought there might be something in it.-' But.it was very
the
difficult when you were asked, as Chairman of a Tobacco Company, to disc*-jss
health question on television. You had not only your own businesi to con5ider but
the employers thoughout the industry, retailers, consumers, farmers growin-, t@ie
leaf, and so on, and you were in much too responsible a position to get up and
say: "I accept that theiproduct which we and all our competitors are putting on
the market gives you lung cancer", whatever you might think privately*
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Sir Charles thought it was more important to consider what the
group could do in tho next two years to help withstand the kind of attacks we
might anticipate. By June 1964, short of a catastrophe, there would be at
Harrogate a f irst class research staff in the medical field turning out really
and by then our position woul@ be fairly solid; but there was nothing
good v.,ork,
in the T.M.S.C. research programme which could help us in the intervening period
simply because It would not be ready in time. The practical problem was to
cons"der what we could do v@ith the forces at present available, i.e. th? people
in our own laboratories, to help defend ourselves against these likely disturbances'.
Mr. McCormick said he understood that Mr. Reid thought It possible
to modif@y our product straight away by removing certain chemiC31 substances.
Mr. Reid explained that thii would riotbe possible quite so soon
as it would require considerable researcn,fbt he thought some of the basic study
@vas already going on in the various Jaboratorles of the giuup, and it was now
a question of sitting doxvnand deciding what forces we had got,. what more we needed
and how to deploy these various approaches into the laboratories whic!i wc-rebes.t
equipped to deal With them. kis group In Australia coul.donly make z small
contribution because of its size$ but he thought the work should be'spre.-.dround
the whbie group so.that everyone would feel,part of it.
Mr. McCormick returned to his previous remarks about the P.R.'a;Dproach,
C=>
and pointed out that the-problem on television was that you could not disprove a
connection between heavy smoking and lung bancer.
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47
Mr. laporte said that all you could do on television was emphasise
that this hypothesis was based on statistical datag point out the discrepancies
eto. But vou might have a hard-headed doctor opposite you who would may that
your argument had nothing to do with itp that the statistics indicated a
connectiong and would ask what vou intended to do about it, or whether you were
just going to sit and wait for years to see if anything happened. You had
to be very careful not to oritioise, or to oritioiseas mildly as possibleg
reports such as that of the R.C.P. The average person aid not realies that the
E.C.P. were not a research organisation and had done none of the work themselves,
but had merely given a review of published data. However they were a very
authoritativebody and their views could carry a lot of weight.
Sir Charles brought the discussion back to the immediate problem which
was to take some definite action. It had been seriously suggested that volatile
acids and aldehydes might form the basis for the next health soare, though ke
personally doubted whether they had any positive effect in this connection. So
it was up to those in charge of the various laboratories to decide whether it was
worth upsetting their programmes and working on things that their hearts were not
set on in order to cover this critical period. He suggested that now was the time
to decide this so that if they were willing to make a certain amount of personal
formulate defizite proposals before the
smarifios in their laborkbories they.-.o,.ould
conference broke up.
Mr.R.M. Gibb Pointed out that the industry had made one very obvious
reaction to the health question in that filters bAd been put on all over the world
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BAT Industries document for Province of British Columbia 10 November 2000
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- 48 -
but t
at vati.ouslevels ot filtr--Ltiotio inobudyseemed to krc-nwbat-berWo bad
T
hid the desi.redeftecitBindi@ w-g-S )otn very EISY Lbi-rWto fat)dout,,
Chn-,Iessaid -tbje
S.i.7- t more
wis i)ot.he poirto we need.edt,)-@.gke
speoif-.P.c
action tbsjn tbis@ develop bome alditive to
Sbould wo@9 frr i-,.igtxiv)oep
E l m
put on civit;@Tot)l,lteii :@Tsbo-ildwe pe-xbapsf!L-rsteas,iiethe amount of
of
filtr-Li:lon ab E@;tro@i T
taliel-;ini.hen filredso be pit
out what a@.-litige t
; v a-ziloll,
on to enable uu to clsjm i@ noueS$ftTy- '@Thisrawrivei@ ;J,l ,.)Iat@@la or
Li rit7o-,v
wba-i.-ec-ei- to
be tbkt ireii,)rt I"Move@
r
tnotighi,hia wss arly % fwlbe-r sfop? Ys Mr. Oibb bAl ea)d.
We b-ii@llleei:y
e r)r.
Pg.),. for Lax lif@i #;be to
sit),j n(-itt*Lii..ngctainsider
w-3swbetber- to ttoie f ',,It-eT*s ttS4Lt.b-m,-y
a-.) eil:l@ Surely
tbi,3 4
vias ,;;Ij of itbatb-44 beett done.
@@ ;Lryl-b-@Lligdi.ii oul4 be I.r@ne
oept, -t.t).nt-
Sii ctIRT'leagrees, c4j or&. v fr--4rjk2y
azirl ould.be -@upply
w t.-Isim.
by the rel-vitr-t
to 7-,;ot4tit he Jvjdue-tital
of irr,@xt c,31loLi
:irp,i
i-r2t.-r3g,je, nllob@.irena.bJu
ib@i -tf.:,Ore -08
Po!xllkncm wixsf-
al,ti.it,
was tiikjrig Be what C@..mpany po)ioy +,o
Fteml@i be wi.tb -i-eam-r-6. @his
lype of situa@i,-Ik, Po,?.- -2!most a Se-i- fago Rtil 1111-;Q,-nAin L'411.
Vi.rtLL--113 ti.p-otf%b('Llt
a be,,ouqe,
Pbe-gol;§,, @b.aywei,3 1;,:-Id +
-,of-irpnoeu
Wim-I.er's
W.!)Y..X oy3ly- Comp4rl wtitille
+tjxif. Nr.-e b to @at.4-9 of the +biy.),gs
tha+ -walecomlsg out of h,@q iux I.-ig-@Lf!-
L PS-it @bej tei(-@ame
MOI)4-i,rt
O
oyr@aj,ef ptlp they hsl:p4ne4. a,4k tb.ei-i@gh@
,Oolq I-e"U,.4p Ic )2a4
9n(i 'bh.J...R
co
L^l
Lil
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BAT Industries Columbia 10 November 2000
BAT INDUSTRIES 00290714
49
t
c.iacl-@d hen to get ah,-adof others in the inited States. 2@u* he v;indered
it
vihetlier -iightnot be wise, to guard against the possibility of si.-.il:!r
2ttacks in the fu-.ure,to cultivate people like Viynderand make a consci@us
effort to keep up viithvihatthey were doing. ciiaoleus to an@.icioate
This mi-,h'L.
of
thoir actions and be in a better position to take a--@vantage them.
suggested that th'.swould gc!t us 6een@-r i@i'-3
Dr. GT4ffith i th.21-r
replied that, in this s:!ecif4-cnstancc@,
c.-ncerring in
phenols had put the.,.i a better position than If they
h-@6not made the effort.
?.!CCozr@ick
l@!r. zgz-eed that .veought to try ard keep '-ntouch %,@ith
%!.,as tvarkor expr,-ssin;) piniois r-lov :It '@othe
3nv'co6yv.,h:) ciairgexper;-m-:!nt3l o
l virotethe woras "Intellio,*nce
Sir Charles rose and, a.-nid augh'Ierl
Service" on the blackboard.
Mr. Anderson both of the intalligenc;e
said he was in favo,-,r sc.-vice
a nd of tak;lng hn
some direct positive action; but in relation to the lztter --'*.at
meaning of Sir Charles' expres-@;.on:
foun6 di-fficultto define was the orec;---e
"As quickly as possible". He had had lengthy discussions on the p!ienol.:;r,tuationc-4)
to
in C:n)da and the States and again on his return to the U.K., and had tr.*Lr--4
up a pr.7graineIn which the whdle group could join thinking in ter:nscf a co
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50
cocarcinogen rather than an inhibitor of ciliary ac.tivity. But this was before
the phenol.crisis had blovm up, and we just hadn't moved fast enough. Acids
and aldehydes, as su_qgestedby 14r*Reid, might "ell be next on the list, but
could anyone predict how fast we should have to*work? It would not be much good
if we were just too late.
Sir Charles was emphatic that we must first decide what work we
were going to do. Did we or did we not think it desirable to have up our sleeves
an additive which we cculd put onto Estron ftlters and which, with a moderate
degree of truth, we could claim reduced the volatile acids or some other
constituent of smoke? If we did, then it was necessary first to develop methods
of analysis, and -thento find out how to treat filters, so that we could at once
rush in and say we had an additive ready.
Mr. Anderson thought It was still a question of how much effort we put
Into it; at the moment our effort was obviously too small.
Dr. CSreensaid this was really the point he vas trying to make about
a second level of approach, I.e. something that vas rather more than',agimmick.
Mr. Reid, taking Australian tobacco as an example,,said that from the
purely practical point of view he would like to know if there was any way of
making the smoke less irritant. Larson had shown that certain smoke constituents
were irritant, and as they did not appear to have any positive effect on flavour
co
if we removed them we should 6; that much further ahead.cccgnetcia.11yi and in doing
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BAT INDUSTRIES 00290716
so there was always the chance that we were making a positive contribution to
the*health question. It was almost certain tiat V.ynderor other individual
would o6o day try this approach.
Mr. Laoorte could see no reason vby anyone should object to the removal
of substances which were irritint.
Mr. Reld continued that his idea might not be possible, but he thought
that within the group there was enoug@ technique being built up on the
fundamentals of smoke to give this approach a reasonable chance of success.
Mr. Ande-rsonsuggested that, as we wort now able to.mako a cigarette
that produced very little-benzpyrone, we might consider whether we should put it
on the warkets or got It tested.
Dr. Green-thought that, with a low benzpyrene cigarette or any other
type of cigarette the question vas whether to test biologically, or whether Just
to go ahead and produce It. He suggested that vo ought.to put the Company in a
'Positionto produce regardless of biological testing*
.
Dr. I. W. Hughes said that the smoke group'wero doing'a lo,@-.
of.respar-ch
which ht hoped would help us,,design cigarettes and understa.,id
cigarettes as .:;.-,ioke
producers. He agreed In principle that we had to make an empirical approach to
the kind of problem had been under discussion, and if so-*one woulritell hiil-
'vohich
which parts of his progranuw"to drop he would go ahead and voke this empirical C=)
Cb
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approach.. Vie had some ideas on benzpyrene and vare able to reduce it somew@Atg
and we might possibly be able to reduce the acids. So far Ae had been
concentratingon the treatment of filters, but he would like also to consider the
possibility of treating tobacco. Once a policy decision on the5e matters had
been reached he would try and put it into practice.
Mr. fAcCor-.nick.suggestedhat Mr. @lobson might like to say som-2thing
t
on policy - whether the scientists in charge of the various labora@,oriesshould
all come up with ',hesame recomendation to their respective Chairmen or Presiden"s
that a certain step should be taken.
lAr.Hobson thought that what Dr. Hughes was referring to was not so
much a policy question as a scientific question - whether they should work on a
means of treating tobacco rather than filters in order to change the composition
of the smoke. He pointed out that wbonever he had suggested anything of that kind
he had been told that we, should then s;>endthe next three years findi.nqout if the
s-ibstanceadded to the tobacco might In Itself have some kind.of-toxic effect.
t
A@.-ferringo Sir Charles' question of whether we wanted to develop additives for
-3rswhich would remove specific constitue'ntsfrom the smoke he thouaht we most
certainly did, because the knowledge might be of the utmost value and could no" be
It
V.13s'l--d. was the kind of knowledge that we must and should have if it was
pos5ible to obtain-it. On the auestion of ohenols he suggested that t@,celfference
tetween the B-A.T. approach and that of Lorillard was that they had
the con-nercialimplications while viehad not. It was a question of th.,
C=)
value rather than the scient:ificImportance, and/or the commercial not C:)
C.
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- 53-
being brought to the attention of the various ]3o&rds.
Sir Charles said that if it was physically possible, bv MarobL1963,
to fin& out what additive GUVO selective aboorbtion of volatile aoids, or of
aldehycies,it was very unlikely that anyone else would develop one before then.
So the problem at issue was to as@ how much effortp distributed over the group,
would be required for that specific job, and then to decide whether that effort,
with its consequent disruption of fundamental research, was worth while. 3:f
there was time for the heads of the various laboratories to got together before
the end of the conference a report could be prepared showing how the work could
be shared out and with what disruption. A policy decision could then be made
as to whether the acquisition of this knowledge by March'1963 would be worth
the disruption involved.
lir.Hobson suggested that, inasmuch as such a progrgmme was in line
with the direct approach advocated by Dr. Green and Mr. Raid, it should
certainly be examined and recommendations made. When Mr. Reid had mentioned
volatile acids and aldehydes nobody disagreed, so presumably everyone thought
they were worth investigating.
Dr. Green was confident that we could have an answer for aoide by
March 1963.
Mr. Reid said that he had recently come from the States where he bal
the good fortune, as a private scientist, to visit some of the other tobacco
research laboratories outside our group, and he had been impressed by the formidable
forces involved in terms of manpower, space and equipment. He supported the kind
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BAT Industriesdocument for Province of BritishColumbia 10 November 2000
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of work whj.ch Sir Cbayies hai just ougeeste-i but ibougtlt it would be fatal to
dii3.rupt the fund-qmsntai work ot.smoke t-ne long term approal@h, On tile
otjier hand the commer-eial impliest-L,@,ris -theLealih question wrtild always be
of
that we neadei adlitjonal forces for the
Agnging ovei us, and he sLLggested.
t f prig-r&m-me
direct app@-oson sco tiicit iie4utillamers-@al not be affected.
w-.),uld
kr. Gieet, poi-qted out. that or)e zranLi%ts had already beefi mELde
available at Southampton for this type of wozk a-t the expense of P.C.L.
C,).Ltd.as ar)illust.--aticnf the
Mr. Reil -ited Pb.illpIL-.rrl.s o
poit)the was tryitig to make. takel) tkx:)Ugittwo 1-tco,-atol-iss,
He Dad *t@.-er,
- g
those of t@@eAnaly'.4,,7a! Dot-olopmezitrolil.a?)d q To-ry smqll ancl,,rziof the
Smoke Oroup, bo@ii of vntzb -LOen I;BTO" thO Phenol -p-,13gl,;Lmme, He
@,cankej rate,, g-ss ebrom-Licgrml-by units,
ted io have a woi,4 v Itb ttisKr-oup working an res)iis whic'.u
later he was iriv4. ,
crinstot,o@i m@
of Pb,.I),.,w,j
R$IX-7!Ll-i Fu.De.9 two anti
a number or)e
cris.trpxpt Y)imeelr.hadl oris g!;td-lst*8TJ-j
of' essi.F3tptit@,z-,.-i Le
r.saistant wn7j(ira,or,-ep-it)s- of LnpeAkeen at
A.rcmo,3.t, iifil
tlis seEix;.r-ri
stte@ise,i thal. tb,4 rN,c)LIom i
)v!g i.:tk!iojfj was t verj ALnd
t)ig !.Ilia,
be fait ve--y bii--eio
ttq'@we -*,!luld ou± tomes tor
'@-olb
TP,-q"reb ar4 for
ftlidatuental dlze"-t eppr(@a-:b..
thougr,@ we coul:i do si) eno-!-.itous
D@r. Cir-ieti wittl
amotint at 3ouit;.ftmpttin
the toohnl,4uete
wilich been dev-!,kope-i we
If r"Lreffcrt by two
or ttlree gr4d@olea@ Wti m:vje--a tiai develt,.r)eft
i,eaotiedtike poi-.it we C-.onsiderable
tesiirj:iq@ue ra@--e ":;LSt ';tJliBtr@,g @'t fUA-',t fO,-LWftn@ Ot tilf., 19taff.
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BAT Industries document for Province of BritishColumbia 10 November 2000
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Gas chromatography could well be expanded three-fold and the smoke assay mrk
could be at least doubled with advantage.
Mr. Hobson, in conclusion, said there was obviously a reasoned
argument for doing the things which had been suggesteds but before any decision
could be made it would be necessary to examine the whole question in great detail.'
He personally was attracted towards thalso-called direct approach, and thought
this should if possible bt followed up@
CZ)
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BAT INDUSTRIES 00290721
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