Consider the testimony of Chief Augustine - John Cummins_ MP

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   1   DECEMBER 2, 1999

   2   COURT OPENS         (TIME:    0945 hours)

   3   THE COURT Good morning.

   4   ALL     Good morning, Your Honour.

   5   THE COURT Mr. Wildsmith.

   6   MR. WILDSMITH       The Defence calls to the stand Chief Stephen

   7   Augustine.

   8   CHIEF AUGUSTINE, sworn, testified as follows:

   9   THE CLERK Please be seated and spell your full name?

  10   A.      Stephen, S-T-E-P-H-E-N.        Augustine, A-U-G-U-S-T-I-N-E.

  11                   DIRECT EXAMINATION ON QUALIFICATIONS

  12   MR. WILDSMITH       Chief Augustine, would you just indicate to

  13   the Court where you live and your present employment?

  14   A.      I live in Rupert in Quebec, about 30 miles outside of

  15   Hull, and I work at the Canadian Museum of Civilization in

  16   Hull.

  17   Q.      Let me show you Exhibit 44 that has been marked.        Could

  18   you identify what this is?

  19   A.      This is my resume.

  20   EXHIBIT 44 [ENTERED] - RESUME OF CHIEF STEPHEN AUGUSTINE

  21   Q.      Did you prepare that?

  22   A.      Yes, I did.

  23   Q.      Let me show you Exhibit 17, volume 3, which under tab

  24   15, document 15.

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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam. on Qualifications

1    A.     Yes.

2    Q.     Could you indicate what that is?

3    A.     That's a curriculum vitae.

4    Q.     Have you prepared that as well?

5    A.     Yes, I did.

6    Q.     Is your resume Exhibit 44 an updated version of the

7    same document?

8    A.     Yes, it's an updated version with a change of address

9    and more detailed information about past employment and

10   public presentations.

11   MR. WILDSMITH     I should indicate to Your Honour that I seek

12   to qualify Chief Augustine as an expert ethno-historian able

13   to give expert opinion evidence on the aboriginal peoples.

14   I have this on a piece of paper which I can give to you in

15   due course.    And the aboriginal perspective on aboriginal

16   European relationships in eastern North America, including

17   the language, culture, oral traditions and oral history of
18   the Mi'kmaq Indians.

19          My friend, Mr. Clarke, I believe, is able to go part

20   way with respect to those qualifications.             Maybe I should

21   just let him speak to that before I provide my examination

22   of Chief Augustine, so that it may be a more restricted

23   basis as a result.

24   THE COURT That's fair enough.


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam. on Qualifications

1    MR. CLARKE        Yes, Your Honour, there's just two positions

2    at this time that the Crown is in a position to address.

3    One is the ethno-historian as an expert ethno-historian.                   We

4    would take or request the Court to consider that issue.

5           And the other one is able to give expert opinion

6    evidence on the aboriginal peoples and the aboriginal

7    perspective on Mi'kmaq European relationships in eastern

8    North America, including the language, culture, oral

9    traditions and oral history of the Mi'kmaq Indians.                 That

10   would be the other clarification the Crown would be seeking

11   in cross, is rather than all aboriginal European

12   relationships in eastern North America, it be specific to

13   the Mi'kmaq/European relationships in eastern North America.

14   With the caveat that there has been extensive evidence

15   before the Court from a number of other witnesses in

16   relation to the Wawanki Confederacy, which includes, to the

17   Crown's understanding, some of the Eastern tribes, the
18   Abenaki, Penobscot, the Maliseet and Passamaquoddy.                 Our

19   understanding is that's not the majority of his evidence,

20   but we're concerned that his perspective on Mi'kmaq European

21   relationships is where the qualifications should lie rather

22   than in the broader aboriginal/European relationships in

23   eastern North America.

24   MR. WILDSMITH     Simply our point, and I will pursue it with


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam. on Qualifications

1    Chief Augustine, is that while 90-odd per cent of it is

2    going to be about the Mi'kmaq, the Mi'kmaq did have this

3    interactional relationship with other aboriginal peoples of

4    eastern North America and we do have documentation relating

5    to the state of the Penobscot dealing with the British, so

6    that, in our submissions, he should be able to speak to that

7    as well.

8    THE COURT I guess I understand what the issues are.                  So, go

9    ahead.

10   MR. WILDSMITH      Maybe what I should do is give you this

11   proposed evidence guide, which does have the statement of

12   the qualification on it now.

13   THE COURT That's fair.        It's helpful to have it.

14   MR. WILDSMITH      So turning, Chief Augustine, to Exhibit 44,

15   can you tell us about your educational background?

16   A.      On the second page, my most recent degree is in a

17   Masters of Art in Canadian Studies at Carleton University,
18   on which a thesis entitled "A Culturally Relevant Education

19   for Aboriginal Youth - Is There Room for A Middle Ground

20   Accommodating Traditional Knowledge and Mainstream

21   Education?"     This was successfully defended in December,

22   1998.

23           Prior to that, I attended one year for a qualifying

24   program in a Masters in History at the University of New


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1    Brunswick.     I did one semester of History in the Masters

2    level and I did not complete the program and I did not write

3    a thesis.

4           Prior to that, in 1986, I graduated from St. Thomas

5    University with a Bachelor of Arts degree in Anthropology

6    and Political Science.        Because those were my majors, I had

7    to do a qualifying year in a Masters for History program at

8    UNB.

9           In 1985, I attended a Native Law Program to prepare

10   myself to seek a degree in law, which I did not pursue after

11   completing the program.

12   Q.     Very well.    With respect to your Masters thesis and the

13   reference to traditional knowledge, with respect to whose

14   traditional knowledge?

15   A.     This was mainly Mi'kmaq traditional knowledge but it

16   also reflected on other aboriginal examples in Canada and

17   North America of their traditional knowledge in areas of
18   technology using toboggans and building wigwams and

19   structures and medicines and those other elements that are

20   integral to their cultures.

21   Q.     Would that, in part, include Maliseet, Passamaquoddy,

22   Abenaki?

23   A.     Yes.

24   Q.     You indicate on here that you speak certain languages.


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam. on Qualifications

1     English, obviously, you are speaking at the moment.

2    A.      Yes, I speak Mi'kmaq.       I have spoken Mi'kmaq all my

3    life.

4    Q.      And French?

5    A.      And French, yes.

6    Q.      You say you have spoken Mi'kmaq all of your life.            Are

7    you a Mi'kmaq Indian?

8    A.      I am a Mi'kmaq Indian, born on the Big Cove Reserve in

9    New Brunswick.

10   Q.      Are you a status Indian as well?

11   A.      I am a status Indian and I am also Captain on the

12   Mi'kmaq Band Council, representing Sigenigtog, the area

13   where I was born.

14   Q.      Could you spell that Mi'kmaq word and district for the

15   record?

16   A.      S-I-G-E-N-I-G-T-O-G.

17   Q.      Are you a member of the Big Cove Band?
18   A.      Yes, I am a member of the Big Cove Band.

19   Q.      Is that located in the general vicinity of

20   Richebouctou, New Brunswick?

21   A.      Yes, it's in Kent County, and it's about seven miles up

22   the Richebouctou River.

23   Q.      What about your knowledge of Maliseet or other

24   aboriginal languages?


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam. on Qualifications

1    A.     I am, because the Maliseet language is very similar to

2    the Mi'kmaq language, there are a lot of root words, I would

3    imagine about 10 per cent of the words that the Maliseet use

4    are recognizable in our language.

5    Q.     Do you regard yourself as a Maliseet speaker?

6    A.     No.

7    Q.     You mentioned that you were a member of the Mi'kmaq

8    Band Council.

9    A.     Yes.

10   Q.     Can you just explain what you meant by saying that you

11   were, I believe, a captain?

12   A.     The late Grand Chief Donald Marshall, Senior, called

13   upon me in 1990 to visit him because he had information that

14   my family had been involved with the Grand Council in the

15   early 1900s and he wanted to find out from me what my

16   relationship was to that family that was participating on

17   the Grand Council.         And he mentioned a name and I said that
18   was my great-grandfather, and my grandfather, and then my

19   father before me, had not participated.               So he said, "I

20   think you're supposed to be on the Mi'kmaq Grand Council as

21   a hereditary chief representing your district."

22          And so he made the appointment in 1990 and called me to

23   attend the Grand Council meeting in Chapel Island and I

24   began my work with the Grand Council as a captain.


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam. on Qualifications

1    Q.      Would that mean that you're a hereditary chief?

2    A.      Yes, I'm a direct descendant of the signer of the

3    treaty on March 10, 1760, by Michel Augustine, Chief Michel

4    Augustine, who was living on the Richebouctou River at the

5    time.

6    Q.      Okay, we'll get into that in more detail but you're a

7    direct descendent of Michel Augustine?

8    A.      Yes.

9    Q.      And you mentioned the Grand Council, at least in its

10   modern day format.       Could you just elaborate on what that is

11   and what you meant by representing one particular district?

12   A.      The Grand Council is made up of seven districts

13   throughout the Maritime Provinces from the Gaspe Peninsula,

14   representing one of the districts down as far as Tracadie

15   River.    Another district, Sigenigtog, represents -- I mean

16   expands down towards the mouth of the Saint John River, down

17   as far as Oxford/Springhill area in Nova Scotia.                Then we
18   have Gesgapegoag, Sigenigtog, Mensigenigtog --

19   Q.      Could you spell those for the record?

20   A.      Starting with the Gaspe?

21   Q.      Well, the ones that you have mentioned.

22   A.      Gaspe is called Gesgapesgiag, G-E-S-G-A-P-E-G-I-A-G,

23   and it means the son gets lost over the horizon.

24   Sigenigtog, S-I-G-E-N-I-G-T-O-G.           It's the remnants of what


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam. on Qualifications

1    is left over from an island drifting away.                And M-E-N in

2    front of Sigenigtog, means what is left over when the land

3    tore itself off from the mainland, and it's been shortened

4    to Sigenigtog.     Gespogoitg is G-E-S-P-O-G-O-I-T-G.

5    Q.     Where is that?

6    A.     Gespogoitg.    That is in the Yarmouth, the southern,

7    southwestern part of Nova Scotia.           Segebemagatig is the area

8    where the wild turnip grows.         S-E-G-E-B-E-M-A-G-A-T-I-G.

9    Q.     Is that generally in the area of Shubenacdie?

10   A.     Shubenacadie, around Truro, including Halifax and the

11   central part of Nova Scotia.         Then we have Epegoitg, E-P-E-

12   G-O-I-T-G, which is Prince Edward Island, also including

13   Pictou.   Pigtogoalnei.       P-I-G-T-O-G-O-A-L-N-E-I.          Goalnei

14   means a harbour or a bay.         Pictou Harbour or Pictou Bay.

15   That is all included in one district on the Grand Council

16   because it is believed at some point the mainland Nova

17   Scotia and New Brunswick was connected to Prince Edward
18   Island and this was only divided by a river.                Eskegiag, the

19   six district, is the area around the Canso and it's spelled

20   E-S-K-E-G-I-A-G.      It means pieces of rock or land, piecing

21   off the mainland and falling into the water and making a

22   loud splash.     And then Omamagi is the Cape Breton area and

23   the Mi'kmaq Grand Council is made up of seven of these

24   districts.


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam. on Qualifications

1           Traditionally, there were two representatives from each

2    of the districts - a spiritual representative and more or

3    less one who was responsible for the well being, the

4    physical well being of the people in those particular

5    districts.

6    Q.     Perhaps you could just spell Omamagi for the record.

7    A.     O-M-A-M-A-G-I, Omamagi.       So the Mi'kmaq Grand Council

8    is a pre-contact aboriginal Mi'kmaq political, spiritual,

9    social organization.

10   Q.     In relation to the Grand Council today, rather than

11   historically, what kinds of functions or activities are they

12   involved in and what role do you have, in particular?

13   A.     My responsibility there is I represent the Sigenigtog

14   District on behalf of my people.          I am responsible for

15   carrying the creation story, Tanwebegsulgtieg.              T-A-N-W-E-B-

16   E-G-S-U-L-G-T-I-E-G.       Meaning where we come from or where

17   our origins are from.
18          I also interpret the treaties -- I mean the wampum

19   belts, the treaties that were recorded on wampum belts for

20   the Grand Council.      We have Charles Herney, who we call a

21   Putus, who is responsible for that function.             P-U-T-U-S.   He

22   is responsible for reading the wampum belts and relating

23   these stories to our people at our gatherings but right now

24   he is a very old man and he is slowly losing his memory.              So


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam. on Qualifications

1    it's been given to me to take over those responsibilities

2    for the Grand Council.

3    Q.     Okay, thank you.     Your present position, you indicated,

4    is with the Canadian Museum of Civilization in Hull.

5    A.     Yes.

6    Q.     Can you indicate what that position is and what your

7    duties are in that position?

8    A.     My official title there is Native History Researcher,

9    but I have also, for a year, over a year now since October

10   1st, 1998, I have been functioning and acting as -- and

11   taking over the responsibilities as Curator of Eastern

12   Maritime Ethnology.

13   Q.     What does that mean, to be a Curator of Eastern

14   Maritime Ethnology?

15   A.     I am responsible for the collections that have been

16   gathered in the museum for the last 100 years that are kept

17   there.   These collections are from the eastern part of North
18   America that involve Mi'kmaq, Maliseet, Beothuk,

19   Passamaquoddy, and some Penobscot material.

20   Q.     Are the Penobscot connected to the Abenaki?

21   A.     Yes, they are.

22   Q.     What kinds of materials are we speaking about?

23   A.     Material culture, drums, snowshoes, canoes, things that

24   were collected by area ethnographers while they were doing


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam. on Qualifications

1    research for the museum or for other museums or universities

2    in the United States, and they had deposited their

3    collections to our museum at some point in the past.

4    Q.     In terms of how the Museum of Civilization is

5    structured, where would you fit into the various divisions

6    or services within the museum?

7    A.     Well, the museum itself has an executive -- They have a

8    board of directors, then we have an executive that ensures

9    the functioning of the museum on an administrative level and

10   financial level.      Then we have programs.        We have a Canadian

11   Ethnology Services Division.         This is where I work.          Then we

12   have Canadian Archeological Survey.           All the archaeologists

13   work there.    We have a history department.             We have a

14   folklore department.       We have a postal museum and a

15   children's museum.      These are all divisions that take care

16   of different sectors of the museum in the public side and

17   they help to maintain the collections in the museum as well
18   by doing research and publishing material and programming

19   exhibits.

20   Q.     Can you indicate what the mandate or mission is of the

21   Ethnology Service that you work as part of?

22   A.     The mandate of the Ethnology Services Division is to

23   mainly to maintain the collections.           Manage and maintain the

24   collections that we have to ensure their secure condition,


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam. on Qualifications

1    to look after the conservation of those materials, to ensure

2    that the public have access to the resources in the museum,

3    as well as to conduct further research to provide context to

4    the materials that are in our collections.

5    Q.     Could you tell us about the research and the kinds of

6    materials that would provide context, as you've put it, to

7    the physical objects that are contained in the museum?

8    A.     The research would have to be involved in collecting

9    information about cultural groups that the material may have

10   been collected.

11   Q.     Does that involve the group of five, I think,

12   aboriginal nations you spoke about?

13   A.     Yes.

14   Q.     Mi'kmaq, Maliseet, Passamaquoddy, Beothuk, and

15   Penobscot?

16   A.     Yes, it would require a systematic literature research

17   at archives locally in New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island,
18   Newfoundland and Nova Scotia.         And, on a national level,

19   with the Department of Indian Affairs and the National

20   Archives of Canada.

21   Q.     So historical documents would be part of those

22   collections, would they?

23   A.     Yes, we have an archival section as well in our museum

24   that has manuscript collections that were at the time of --


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam. on Qualifications

1    Some of them date back as far as the middle of 1600s, notes

2    by missionaries that have been deposited at our museum

3    instead of at the national archives.

4    Q.     Are you involved in the collection and the analysis of

5    that material?

6    A.     Yes, it's part of my responsibility to accession

7    material that comes in.        It's part of my responsibility to

8    make available to the public, to the researchers, access to

9    the resources or to the sources.

10   Q.     Does it involve the interpretation of that material?

11   A.     Yes, it does.

12   Q.     Okay.   How long have you worked with the Museum of

13   Civilization?

14   A.     I have worked there full-time since three years,

15   October, whatever, 1996.        I had worked there earlier on a

16   contract basis.

17   Q.     Could you explain that?
18   A.     I was involved in providing an update to a list of

19   aboriginal communities across Canada.           Communities like

20   Restigouche, who have changed their name to Listugutj.              L-I-

21   S-T-U-G-U-T-J.     A lot of aboriginal communities across

22   Canada have changed their names back to their aboriginal

23   names and part of that task was to update that list, because

24   we had names that were like Fort George or St. George or


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam. on Qualifications

1    Coverdale that were not indigenous names to the communities.

2     So that involved updating and contacting all the First

3    Nations communities across Canada and aboriginal

4    organizations.

5    Q.     That was part of what you did under contract?

6    A.     Yes.

7    Q.     If we turn to the third page of Exhibit 44, your

8    resume, we see the title "Publications."

9    A.     Yes.

10   Q.     Can you, and bearing in mind that the Crown has

11   conceded your expertise with respect to the Mi'kmaq, could

12   you go through these publications and indicate what things

13   might be relevant to your expertise with respect to

14   Maliseet, Passamaquoddy, Penobscot, or Abenaki?

15   A.     The first publication, "Traditional Indigenous

16   Knowledge and Preservation of Cultural Property," this

17   involved identifying cultural objects that were held in our
18   museum as well as in other museums across Canada and

19   identifying which ones were sacred and which ones were not

20   sacred objects and how these objects should be handled.

21   This involved having to provide source material on Mi'kmaq,

22   Passamaquoddy, Penobscot, Beothuk, and Maliseet.

23   Identifying these materials as which ones would be sacred

24   and which ones would not be.


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam. on Qualifications

1    Q.     Would that involve looking at something about the

2    culture of those aboriginal groups to make that

3    determination?

4    A.     Yes, I was utilizing the Mi'kmaq Creation Story in

5    order to indicate how these objects were interrelated in an

6    aspect of a spiritual ceremony.

7    Q.     Okay.

8    A.     In 1998, "What Have the River Systems Provided to the

9    Mi'kmaq?"      It was a presentation made to the National Parks

10   at Kouchibouguac.

11   Q.     We notice that the title refers only to the Mi'kmaq.

12   A.     Yes.

13   Q.     My question to you:      Is there anything we should be

14   noting in that that might relate to the other aboriginal

15   groups besides the Mi'kmaq?

16   A.     I was using the Richiboucto River as an example, but I

17   would say that this example would apply to most rivers in
18   the east coast of North America because there are the same

19   animals, birds, plants, and trees and conditions that the

20   aboriginal people would have followed the river system as

21   their main travel routes and relied on the same kind of

22   resources.

23   Q.     So would that include the Saint John River or the St.

24   Croix River or Penobscot River?


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam. on Qualifications

1    A.     Yes.

2    Q.     Okay.   Anything further, not necessarily in that

3    article, but focusing in on things that would be germane to

4    the other aboriginal groups that you may be saying something

5    about in your evidence?

6    A.     This one, this paper involved explaining about what the

7    river systems would have provided to the Indians as sort of

8    like a travel route, a source of food, medicine, clothing,

9    shelter, all the elements that are necessary to survive or

10   derived by the river or with the use of the river, and the

11   Mi'kmaq people would not have survived quite well without

12   the use of the river as travel routes.

13   Q.     Anything else in the publications that might be germane

14   to Penobscot, Maliseet, Passamaquoddy?

15   A.     "The Mi'kmaq History of Big Cove" dealt with the

16   Creation Story and the relationships, the treaty

17   relationships between neighbouring groups like Maliseet,
18   Passamaquoddy, Penobscot prior to contact and then I went

19   into more detail about the establishment of the Richiboucto

20   Reserve and then its reduction of 46,000 acres, I guess, in

21   a matter of 75 years.

22   Q.     So you're saying that to look at Big Cove, you were

23   looking at the wide relationship that the Mi'kmaq had with

24   neighbouring aboriginal peoples?


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam. on Qualifications

1    A.     During the treaty period and the colonial period prior

2    to establishment of Nova Scotia, as well as after, I mean

3    prior to the establishment of New Brunswick as well as soon

4    after, the way the lands were being granted in New

5    Brunswick, it involved granting lands to Maliseet as well as

6    those that lived in Canoose River in southern part of New

7    Brunswick on the Passamaquoddy area.

8    Q.     Other things under publications that would be germane

9    to Maliseet, Passamaquoddy, Penobscot?

10   A.     No, the other cases are more contemporary issues

11   involving suicides, social, land, and economy for the Royal

12   Commission on Aboriginal Peoples.

13   Q.     Okay.

14   A.     In 1991, "The Introductory Guide to Mi'kmaq Words and

15   Phrases" involved words about trade and interaction with

16   tribes, ceremonies, and we went into detail about explaining

17   pipe ceremonies and sweat lodge and those words that are
18   attached to those kind of activities.

19   Q.     Okay, moving on to thesis supervision, was there

20   anything in that MSC thesis that you were an external

21   examiner on that would be related to Maliseet Passamaquoddy

22   Penobscot?

23   A.     More in a general context of approaching indigenous

24   communities, approaching indigenous elders, and in an


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam. on Qualifications

1    example, this Masters degree student was going up to Yukon,

2    Old Crow, to study the porcupine caribou herd, and I was

3    appointed as her supervisor or asked to supervise on the

4    indigenous context of her thesis.          And I was advising her on

5    how to approach elders in the community and this approach

6    needed to have some -- One had to have knowledge of elders

7    and attitudes and activities of elders and how they would

8    respond and how they would be -- how interviews would be

9    conducted and an interrelationship could be established to

10   minimize any conflicting situations.

11   Q.     Where was this particular aboriginal group located?

12   A.     In the Yukon Territories up in Old Crow, I mean, yes,

13   in Old Crow, Yukon.

14   Q.     Okay.   Moving on to the statement at the bottom of this

15   page about expert testimony, you have been qualified in the

16   past to give expert testimony, have you?

17   A.     Yes, I have.    And this part here that I had written, I
18   had no access to the court text or court document and I was

19   basing it on what I assumed I had spoken on and I don't

20   think that this is a proper wording for my qualification.

21   Q.     Is this what you understood that you did, in fact,

22   speak to?

23   A.     Yes.

24   Q.     And do you now know or do you -- are you able to say


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1    whether you were qualified in that case to speak about

2    Maliseet, Abenaki, Passamaquoddy as well as Mi'kmaq?

3    A.     I now know, but in my last testimony in New Brunswick,

4    the Crown made a correction to that line and I don't exactly

5    know the wording still to that because I was supposed to be

6    given a part of that transcript, but I didn't -- I have not

7    received it, so I am unable to identify the exact phrasing

8    of that.

9    Q.     Is it your understanding that you were able to speak

10   about the other aboriginal peoples that were listed here on

11   your resume?

12   A.     I was able to speak and give my opinion about those

13   relationships on those -- about those tribes, yes.

14   Q.     All right.    And that was in a case indicated here as

15   Josh Bernard.       Was there a second case that you were also

16   qualified to give expert evidence in?

17   A.     There was a second case involving Francis, I believe,
18   Harvey Francis.      R v. Francis and others.

19   Q.     When were you qualified in that case?

20   A.     I believe in September.

21   Q.     Of this year, 1999?

22   A.     Yes.

23   Q.     Subsequent to the Bernard case?

24   A.     Yes.


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1    Q.     Okay.   Now you have a lot of information about your

2    work experience in the subsequent pages here.              Can you

3    isolate from this list things that might relate to the

4    Penobscot, the Abenaki, the Passamaquoddy, the Maliseet, and

5    things that might relate to archival work?

6    A.     In 1991 to '93 I worked for the Big Cove Band Council

7    as their land claims advisor and it involved doing extensive

8    research at the Provincial Archives in Fredericton and in

9    Prince Edward Island as well as in Nova Scotia to look for

10   documentary material relating to the Big Cove land claim.

11   Q.     And would you then be making copies of that

12   documentation and keeping it for the purposes of analysis?

13   A.     Yes.

14   Q.     And you did that from January of '91 to October of '93?

15   A.     Yes.

16   Q.     All right.   Other things related to original historical

17   work in archives or published sources?
18   A.     In 1988 I was operating a research consulting services

19   dealing with archival research for First Nations communities

20   in New Brunswick.      I provide research information from

21   archival sources to their communities to do profiles.

22   Q.     Does that mean you went into the Archives and did the

23   research, found the documents and brought them back out?

24   A.     Some of the documentation I had already, yes, and some


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1    I found during the time that I did provide the service.

2    Q.     Your CV just refers to 1988 here.          Is there an end date

3    to that or how should be understand that?

4    A.     Just for that year, yes.

5    Q.     Okay.

6    A.     1986 St. Thomas University Challenge '86 Project, I was

7    a student archivist working at the Provincial Archives in

8    Fredericton at the University of New Brunswick researching

9    and identifying and photocopying and organizing Mi'kmaq,

10   Maliseet, and Passamaquoddy documentation at the Provincial

11   Archives and cataloguing that in a chronological order.

12   Q.     Okay.

13   A.     Most of this information was passed on to history

14   professors, William Hamilton and William Spray of St. Thomas

15   University.

16   Q.     And who are they?

17   A.     William Spray at the time was vice president of St.
18   Thomas University.      He's a history professor at St. Thomas

19   University.    William B. Hamilton, he was at the Mi'kmaq-

20   Maliseet Institute.      He was also a history professor at UNB.

21   Q.     What was the Mi'kmaq-Maliseet Institute?

22   A.     Mi'kmaq-Maliseet Institute was established by an

23   agreement between St. Thomas University and UNB to focus on

24   specializing research and education for aboriginal


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1    communities in New Brunswick.            And these two involved

2    Mi'kmaq and Maliseet groups.

3    Q.     Okay.      And what else do we find here?

4    A.     In April, 1978, to September I worked for Dr. Charles

5    Akerman, Department of Anthropology, University of New

6    Brunswick and Fredericton as an archival researcher.                   I was

7    providing research.         It was more or less a verification of

8    documentation whereby the Indians in Maine had submitted a

9    claim to the State of Maine.            And the Attorney General for

10   the State of Maine, Joseph Brennan, had hired under contract

11   Dr. Charles Akerman to verify this research, and part of my

12   responsibility was to do the actual archival work to find

13   the sources.        And to see also if the Province of New

14   Brunswick had at some time in the past accepted

15   responsibility for the Passamaquoddy tribe in New Brunswick.

16   Q.     Okay.     So that seems to have taken you into the New

17   Brunswick Provincial Archives and the Maine State Archives
18   both in Augusta and Orono, Maine?

19   A.     Yes.

20   Q.     Other things on your CV related to Maliseet,

21   Passamaquoddy, Penobscot, Abenaki, or archival research?

22   A.     No.

23   Q.     Okay.     And we have a section here on boards and

24   communities that you have participated on.                  Is there


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1    anything in there related to the same issues of the other

2    aboriginal groups?

3    A.     No, I --

4    Q.     There's a reference in here to the Premier's Round

5    Table on Environment and Economy.

6    A.     Yes.

7    Q.     What's that?

8    A.     The Premier's Round Table on Environment and Economy

9    was established in 1973 and once the responsibility was

10   given to the public, I was invited by premier, then Premier

11   Frank MacKenna to sit on the Round Table to represent the

12   aboriginal people in New Brunswick, that would involve

13   Mi'kmaq and Maliseet representation on the Round Table.

14          And the Round Table itself is more or less concerned

15   with environmental issues and the economy of the province.

16   In that context, companies who wanted to develop the natural

17   resources in the province were somewhat cognizant of
18   environmental factors and how to minimize these impacts on

19   the environment.

20   Q.     Thank you.    And you're still a member of that, are you?

21   A.     I'm still a member, yes.        It's been renewed twice

22   already.

23   Q.     And just in general in your activities, whether they

24   are personal or professional or otherwise, have you been in


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1    contact with people who are Maliseet and Passamaquoddy?

2    A.     Yes, in fact, I have relatives living in Indian Island

3    in Old Town and in --

4    Q.     Where is that?

5    A.     In Old Town, Maine, just outside of Orono north of

6    Bangor on the Penobscot River.          There's an island, it's

7    called Indian.

8    Q.     And you have relatives there?

9    A.     I have relatives that live there that have

10   intermarried.     My grandmother's aunt moved down to Boston in

11   1888, married there a Passamaquoddy Indian.              They had twin

12   children, two daughters, one moved to Indian Island and one

13   moved to Pleasant Point or Sebyiak.

14   Q.     You had better spell that.

15   A.     S-E-B-Y-I-A-K or C, Sebyiac.

16   Q.     So would those people be Maliseet, Passamaquoddy,

17   Penobscot or --
18   A.     They have been accepted in their communities, so they

19   identify themselves as Passamaquoddy and Penobscot.                 And I

20   have attended Wabanaki meeting that have been held in Orono,

21   Maine, and in Indian Island as well as in Passamaquoddy.

22   Q.     What are Wabanaki meetings?

23   A.     They are meetings that have been held between Mi'kmaq,

24   Maliseet, Abenaki, Passamaquoddy, and Penobscot tribes.


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1    Q.     And that continues to be done periodically today?

2    A.     Yes.

3    Q.     Okay.   The next part of your resume deals with papers,

4    lectures and public addresses.

5    A.     Yes.

6    Q.     Could you, again, highlight the things on there that

7    might be pertinent to the other aboriginal nations besides

8    Mi'kmaq?

9    A.     Most of the presentations have been centering around

10   indigenous knowledge, relationships to the land, the

11   creation story, ceremonies attached around aboriginal

12   communities and in the general context most Eastern

13   Algonkian-speaking tribes believe in the Glooscap as a

14   culture hero, a grandmother, other members of the family as

15   well as their relationships to other species of animals and

16   trees and plants and birds as being part of their family.

17   And so this understanding of that relationship, the
18   spiritual connectiveness involved these other tribes, all

19   right, people that have been identified as Passamaquoddy,

20   Penobscot, Mi'kmaq, Maliseet, even Beothuk.

21   Q.     You mentioned Eastern Algonkian?

22   A.     Eastern Algonkian-speaking tribes.

23   Q.     And who would be included in that?

24   A.     All the tribes living from the Delaware River all the


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1    way up to Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island,

2    Newfoundland, even the Inuit and the Montagnais, Mascapee,

3    Cree.

4    Q.      So that would include the --

5    A.      Ojibwas.

6    Q.      -- Passamaquoddy, Maliseet, Penobscot, Abenaki as well

7    as Mi'kmaq.

8    A.      Yes.

9    Q.      Okay.

10   A.      These are all -- linguistically all of these tribes are

11   related because a lot of the basic words stem from an older

12   form of the language which has been identified as a proto-

13   Algonkian and like, for instance, the colour white is wabeg,

14   W-A-B-E-G.      In Mi'kmaq there are various forms of that word

15   beginning with W-A-B in all Algonkian languages.                And the

16   same for the colour black and the earth, the sky, the sun

17   and so on, so a lot of these languages are connected in that
18   way.    In the similar way that Latin may be identified as the

19   base language for the romantic languages, French, Italian,

20   Spanish, Portuguese.        So the Algonkian-speaking people are

21   these group of people that are interrelated by language in

22   that context.

23   Q.      The creation story that you have spoken about that has

24   commonality to more than the Mi'kmaq, can you indicate what


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1    use the Canadian Museum of Civilization makes of you and the

2    Mi'kmaq creation story?

3    A.     We are undertaking a major project for the last 15

4    years to develop the First People's Hall            which is about

5    150,000 square feet of area or floor space --

6    Q.     150,000 square feet?

7    A.     Yes.

8    Q.     Sounds like bigger than a football field.

9    A.     It's quite large.     Because right now we have an area in

10   the museum called a grand hall which represents mostly the

11   northwest coast, [Michka, Quaquaculak, Haida, Clinget

12   Nations and Salish and Shimsham?]          And these people are

13   represented by their longhouses or cedar houses with totem

14   poles and this makes up a very unbalanced representation of

15   aboriginal people in Canada for the public.              So the museum

16   has been involved in developing this other area to balance

17   out this representation to incorporate Plains Indians,
18   Inuit, Iroquoian and the East Coast.

19          And part of the First Peoples Hall involves collecting

20   information about how indigenous societies see themselves

21   coming into existence as opposed to coming across the

22   Bering-Beringia Strait, Bering Strait.

23   Q.     Yes.

24   A.     And so we're involved in a massive research project to


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1    look for creation stories and the Mi'kmaq one has been

2    chosen as the one that will highlighting the opening in

3    April 19 -- 2001 when the First Peoples Hall opens so they

4    will -- the creation story will -- the Mi'kmaq creation

5    story will be highlighted as a story that indigenous people

6    have about their own creation and their own existence and

7    from their perspective.

8    Q.     Why the Mi'kmaq one?

9    A.     Because it has been the longest in contact.            The

10   cultural group has been quite a long time in contact with

11   European culture and the fact that this story has survived

12   this long.

13   Q.     What's your role in it all?

14   A.     I'll be relating the story in Mi'kmaq in the creation

15   story theatre which is part of the inside of this First

16   Peoples Hall at the very beginning stages of it.

17   Q.     Are you going to be there every day on stage or what?
18   A.     No, they're -- they had planned to videotape my

19   presentation in a holographic presentation to the public,

20   but because of funding and cutbacks, they have done a three-

21   screen projection, one on a screen in front and with two

22   screens in the back to emphasis, I guess, the visual context

23   of the story.

24   Q.     So you'll be telling that story on the film?


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1    A.     It will be told on film in Mi'kmaq with a voice-over in

2    English and in French and with scenery in the back of eagles

3    and forest, scenery of the Maritime Provinces basically.

4    Q.     Have you already filmed that?

5    A.     Yes, they are just editing.        It will be finished

6    probably in January.

7    Q.     All right.   And have you, as a Mi'kmaq person, also

8    participated in public ceremonies?

9    A.     I have provided a lot of presentations.           I have done

10   pipe ceremonies, sweet grass, sage tobacco-offering

11   ceremonies.    I have done honour songs for aboriginal people

12   in aboriginal communities, on reserves, for the Grand

13   Council, for provincial governments, particular government

14   departments, lawyers, judges, RCMP as well as for the

15   National Defence, for international work with Environment

16   Canada, for the United Nations in Rome and as well as in

17   Madrid, Spain, and for the Governor General.
18   Q.     What it about the Governor General?

19   A.     During the Order of Canada investiture, there were two

20   aboriginal people identified, Freida [Henique?] and Rosemary

21   [Captana?], I was invited to do an honour song for them and

22   do a smudging ceremony during their investiture at the

23   Government House.      And for the former governor, Governor

24   General Romeo LeBlanc.


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1    Q.     Now you see the Exhibit 17, Volume 3, that you have in

2    front of you, Tab 15, I believe it is.            Are some of the

3    letters that you received from people thanking you for those

4    presentations included after your CV or resume?

5    A.     Yes, the first one is a letter from John [Harredy?]

6    who's the director of Biodiversity Convention Office.               He

7    was asking the director of the museum, Dr. George MacDonald,

8    if I could come to Spain to represent the aboriginal people

9    at the United Nations Conference on Biodiversity.               I have

10   prepared a paper on comparing indigenous knowledge and

11   mainstream science and this was presented as the background

12   paper for the Government of Canada in Madrid, Spain, at the

13   United Nations Conference.

14   Q.     And if you -- I don't want you to go through them all,

15   but if you look to the third last letter, three from the

16   back, is that the letter you received from the Governor

17   General Romeo LeBlanc with respect to the --
18   A.     Yes.   That's a letter dated March 1st, 1999.            Governor

19   General Romeo LeBlanc thanked me for delivering the Mi'kmaq

20   eagle song honouring the seven sacred directions and he

21   thought it was a very moving experience for all who were

22   there.

23   Q.     All right.   And so you did that at Rideau Hall on

24   February the 3rd, 1999?


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1    A.     Yes.

2    Q.     Okay.     Anything else that I haven't covered that you'd

3    like to bring to our attention about either your work as a

4    historian, as an ethnologist or with respect to the

5    Maliseet, Passamaquoddy, and Penobscot?

6    A.     No.

7    Q.     Do you think it's fair to call yourself an ethno-

8    historian?

9    A.     Depends on who -- fair to who or fair by who.

10   Q.     Well, in your own opinion based on what work you have

11   done and continue to do.

12   A.     I have quite an extensive knowledge about the cultural

13   groups and their history and their relationship with

14   treaties and their contact with the European nations that

15   arrived here orally, traditionally and from an academic

16   context.

17   Q.     What do you mean by an "academic context"?
18   A.     Studying in university, in formal education.

19   Q.     And would that include reviewing historical documents

20   themselves?

21   A.     Yes.

22   Q.     Documents that are generated by the British or other

23   Europeans?

24   A.     Yes.


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1    Q.     Thank you, Your Honour, those are all the questions for

2    Chief Augustine on his direct for qualification purposes.

3                    CROSS-EXAMINATION ON QUALIFICATIONS

4    THE COURT Mr. Clarke?

5    MR. CLARKE        Thank you, Your Honour.

6    Q.     Chief Augustine, with regards to your qualifications as

7    an ethno-historian, I would like to cover a couple of areas

8    in that field.     Mr. Wildsmith had asked you a number of

9    questions about your university background.

10          In your undergraduate degree, I note that you have

11   anthropology as one of your majors.           Was that correct or was

12   it a minor in your B.A.?

13   A.     It was a major, yes.

14   Q.     Major?   And how many history courses were part of that

15   anthropology major or were there any?

16   A.     History courses involved three of them.

17   Q.     And what were they in relation to those history courses
18   that you took in your B.A. level?

19   A.     Indian/White Relations.

20   Q.     In what time frame would that have been?

21   A.     In terms of the course?

22   Q.     Yes, what time frame did the course cover?

23   A.     It was from September to April.

24   Q.     Would it have been 16th century Indian/White relations


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1    or 17th century or do you recall?

2    A.     It covered a wide period and it more or less focused on

3    Spanish, Dutch, French, and English contacts in North

4    America and the subsequent history that developed

5    afterwards, in a general context, in terms of the experience

6    aboriginal people were undergoing, whether there was

7    acculturation, assimilation or those kind of concerns.

8    Q.     So that wasn't specific to northeastern North America,

9    i.e. New England and what is now referred to as the

10   Maritimes?

11   A.     It sort of started in the south, like, where Columbus

12   landed and it developed northward.           And the focus ended up

13   in the New England/New Brunswick areas.

14   Q.     And what was the other courses about?

15   A.     Native people and the law.        It was given by [Graydon?]

16   Nicholas.

17   Q.     And what type of subject matter were those courses
18   covering?

19   A.     It was treaty-related material, land-related material,

20   but --

21   Q.     And again were those courses primarily concerned with

22   what is now the Maritime provinces and New England or did

23   they cover North America generally, like the previous

24   course?


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1    A.      No, it covered mostly the Maritime region.

2    Q.      And the treaties, which treaties would they have been

3    with?    Were they the Mi'kmaq treaties or were they some of

4    the New England treaties as well?

5    A.      It covered most of all the treaties that -- each

6    student was given an assignment to write a paper on a

7    particular treaty.       But in general, in the class, Graydon

8    Nicholas lectured to us about -- around the beginning of

9    1700, around the Treaty of Utrecht period towards the

10   establishment of the Province of New Brunswick.

11   Q.      What year was that?

12   A.      1783-84.

13   Q.      Now you say each student was assigned a treaty to write

14   on.    Do you recall which one you wrote your --

15   A.      The Richibucto Treaty, 1760, the one signed by Michel

16   Augustine.

17   Q.      So that would have been the 1760-61 series of treaties
18   then, would it?

19   A.      Yes.

20   Q.      One of the things that comes up in these cases is the

21   reference and use of terminology.           In your experience, what

22   is the Mi'kmaq preference, to use "band," "tribe," "local

23   community," as far as terminology?            What would you prefer to

24   hear when we refer to that type of thing?              Is it "band,"


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1    "tribe"?

2    A.     It varies, whichever community you go.              Most Mi'kmaq

3    people will say We're Mi'kmaq, or Mi'kmaw.                I'm a "Mi'kmaw."

4           "Nation" has been used because the Assembly of First

5    Nations organized itself around communities, calling

6    themselves First Nations.         And so a lot of the Indian

7    reserves identify themselves as First Nations communities.

8    So instead of using "First Nation," they say "Mi'kmaw Nation

9    Community.

10          And the Grand Council itself identifies itself as a

11   national organization.

12   Q.     As a national -- you mean, the Grand Council of First

13   Nations or the Grand Council of the Mi'kmaq?

14   A.     The Grand Council of the Mi'kmaq.

15   Q.     Is a national organization or recognizable as a

16   national organization?

17   A.     Yes, we like to consider it.
18   Q.     So when we refer to, in your reference to communities

19   of the Richibucto, is that a band, a tribe, or is it a local

20   community, from your perspective or from the Mi'kmaq

21   perspective?

22   A.     Well, since the establishment of the Department of

23   Indian Affairs in 1876 and the Indian Act, they've

24   identified reserve or lands reserved for Indians, and


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1    identified Indians to live on those particular communities.

2     So there's been a lot of movement of those particular

3    communities, and people that are involved.               So this is sort

4    of like the Department of Indian Affairs referred to these

5    groups as bands.

6    Q.     So that's the terminology that's more modern in respect

7    to the history of the Mi'kmaq nation than, say, pre-contact.

8     It would never have been considered then?

9    A.     No, it would be --

10   Q.     Now you've also indicated that part of your eduction, I

11   believe, when you were at St. Thomas you did research?

12   A.     Yes.

13   Q.     And that included for the State of Maine?

14   A.     Yes.

15   Q.     Where was that research conducted?          Was that in Nova

16   Scotia, New Brunswick or was it just in the State of Maine?

17   A.     It was mainly in New Brunswick at the Provincial
18   Archives, the main body of information that was being

19   collected was there.       But the information verification

20   element of it was in the Provincial Archives here in Nova

21   Scotia, in Fredericton, in New Brunswick, and in Maine, in

22   Aaron and Augusta.

23   Q.     So what was your function?        Did you collect it or did

24   you verify it?


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1    A.     I collected the information at the Provincial Archives

2    in Fredericton.      And then I was involved in the verification

3    of the other information.

4    Q.     And what was involved in the verification process?

5    A.     You're given a document and there's a lot of

6    information in the documents, and there's source numbers on

7    the documentation.       You go to the particular archive. You

8    look up the source and you look up the document and match

9    the document that you have in the binders that they

10   provided.     And it was just to ascertain they were the right

11   amount of sheaves of documents in that particular reference

12   series.

13   Q.     And did you do a systematic analysis of those documents

14   for the State of Maine or was that someone else's

15   responsibility?

16   A.     Dr. Charles [Ackerman?] presented a systematic analysis

17   of that.    This was after an oral presentation between myself
18   and three others that were involved in the project.

19   Q.     And the oral presentation was in relation to the

20   accuracy of the verification or --

21   A.     Well, it was a systematic -- he organized it in wall

22   charts on the wall and we were making presentations to him

23   in order for him to systematize and put it into a report

24   format to the Attorney General for the State of Maine.


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Cross-Exam. on qualifications

1    Q.     And that was in the late 80s, I believe it was, or was

2    that in the late 70s you did that?

3    A.     I believe it was in the late 70s.          The main land claim

4    agreement came in 1979-80.

5    Q.     Okay.   Now in your opinion, or in your words, what is

6    the role of an ethno-historian?          What is an ethno-historian?

7    A.     An ethno-historian is concerned with the ethnographic,

8    the structure and the make-up of a cultural group and its

9    development over time, its change, its structure of a group

10   as a culture.     Looking at issues like language, folklore,

11   sacred -- they say religious ceremonies, and their political

12   make-up and their structure, basically.

13   Q.     What training post-graduate have you done to be

14   qualified as an ethno-historian or is there a qualification

15   for an ethno-historian?

16   A.     There's a position at the museum for ethno-historian.

17   You have to have lots of education and working experience in
18   the cultural field as well as in the historical field of a

19   particular group of individuals.          My specialization was the

20   Mi'kmaq and Maliseet and Penobscot/Passamaquoddy of eastern

21   Canada.   There is no -- most ethno-historians have either a

22   combination of anthropology, history, and archaeology as a

23   background.

24   Q.     Is ethnology a sub part of anthropology or a


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Cross-Exam. on qualifications

1    subdiscipline of anthropology?

2    A.     Yes, it is.

3    Q.     Do you have any post-graduate level training in

4    ethnology?

5    A.     Yes, the course I took with Derrick Smith was an

6    anthropology course looking at aboriginal issues in North

7    America.

8    Q.     Did it deal with anything -- did it deal with the

9    Mi'kmaq or the Maliseet in those studies or it was just a

10   generalized review?

11   A.     No, it was a seminar course, and it required presenting

12   two papers, two seminar papers, and one major work.                  And my

13   work was focusing on Mi'kmaq history and the creation story.

14   Q.     Now in the ethno-history or ethnology field, is it

15   possible to maintain an objective distance or a scientific

16   detachment when studying a community in which you are

17   actually a member of?
18   A.     Yes, the discipline now has gone away from the

19   classical methodological approaches to analyzing

20   communities.      And working in sort of the ethnographic

21   present has allowed researchers to be in the community, to

22   live in there and to study their own.            In fact, a lot of the

23   contemporary focus is to present information from the

24   context of the community.         It has been valued more than the


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Cross-Exam. on qualifications

1    classical researches that involve looking at a cultural

2    group from classifications that have been established

3    outside of the community and may bear no relevance to the

4    cultural group being studied.

5           One example would be religion and spirituality.

6    Q.     Then have you developed your own methodology or have

7    you followed a standard methodology and if so, what

8    standard, and what procedure do you use?

9    A.     I have developed my own methodological approach to

10   dealing with aboriginal communities, more on an ethical

11   basis.   Because in the past aboriginal knowledge, aboriginal

12   technologies have been appropriated from our communities and

13   other people benefit financially from these type of

14   researches, especially when it involves mining, medicines,

15   collection of medicines and knowledge about the environment.

16    In fact, I have been involved in developing an ethical

17   approach to doing research in aboriginal communities for
18   Environment Canada.

19   Q.     Could you take us through step by step, or would it be

20   too long, your methodology?

21   A.     No, no.   By going into an aboriginal community, first

22   of all, you would have to survey all the literature that you

23   would be able to find on that particular aboriginal

24   community.    There would be a protocol that you would have to


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Cross-Exam. on qualifications

1    follow in terms of contacting whoever the administrative or

2    political head of that community would be to obtain the

3    necessary permissions or licenses to access individuals

4    within that community and then to be able to know the proper

5    protocol of ensuring the proper handling of information in

6    terms of confidentiality and by providing the people who

7    provide information to you with gifts and presents and

8    monetary stipends to ensure that the process is closely done

9    in a way that is more beneficial to the community as well as

10   when you finish your research and do a report, before you

11   finalize the report, you would give your draft to the

12   community involved and to see if there is any information

13   that they would not want to be given publicly, as well as

14   the final report, when it is presented, that you ensure that

15   wherever this report and for what purpose the report will be

16   used that the community are informed, communities are

17   informed about where this document is going to go.                  Plus the
18   benefits from there that might accrue from this information

19   would be partially negotiated with the community involved.

20   Q.     That format that you use, how does that differ from the

21   standard methodology that you were taught when you took your

22   seminar courses?

23   A.     Well, classically -- Well, it doesn't differ that much

24   because the ideal is to minimize taking somebody's


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Cross-Exam. on qualifications

1    information or improperly doing research in the community.

2    So --

3    Q.      You mean "improperly doing research in the community,"

4    would that be contrary to local traditions and the local

5    culture, or contrary to doing research, period?

6    A.      Contrary to local cultures and contrary to the

7    principles of whatever the researching institute or whoever

8    provides funding for the research.            Classically, what has

9    happened in the past is anthropologists or historians or

10   just researchers would come in and start interviewing an

11   elder or somebody about technology, let's say, about canoes

12   or toboggans or snowshoes and different people would come

13   out with patents on those things, and even medicines and

14   native people would not even be allowed to touch that plant

15   that has been particularly identified as their traditional

16   medicinal plant.       It's happened in many instances and

17   Environment Canada has been focusing on providing an ethical
18   approach to that kind of research.

19   Q.      Now in your work then, do you distinguish between

20   western scientific understanding of human history and the

21   history told by the elders of your community and what do you

22   do if there is a conflict between the two of them?

23   A.      You don't -- When you have two sources of information

24   or two sources of knowledge, in the instance of indigenous


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Cross-Exam. on qualifications

1    people in North America, there is a lot of reliance on

2    dreams, on visions, on fasting, and how these people are

3    influenced and use this in terms of their traditional

4    activities, like hunting, ceremonies, drumming, dancing and

5    pipe ceremonies, sweat lodge ceremonies.             There is a

6    different sort of information.           It's more all encompassing

7    and it makes sense of everything that is around in its world

8    view.

9            While in the mainstream context, research has been

10   broken down in particular categories, like economy,

11   political, archaeological, anthropological, social,

12   cultural, religious and those categories, and it is not

13   simply possible to superimpose one over the other, the

14   written context or the oral context over the written.                 We

15   have to deal with them separately and juxtapose these two

16   and take from it a more rounded source of knowledge rather

17   than saying that is true and that is not true.               According to
18   your cultural traditions, all knowledge and all information

19   is valid.     If you don't agree, well, that is valid, that you

20   don't agree, you have your reasons and rationality.                  In all

21   likely instances, aboriginal people will not push their

22   values upon you to change your thinking.

23   Q.      Do you make a distinction in your assessment of oral

24   history and oral tradition -- Perhaps before we get to that,


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Cross-Exam. on qualifications

1    in oral history and oral tradition, what is your definition

2    of oral history and oral tradition?

3    A.     Oral tradition is a culmination of all of the

4    collective knowledge of indigenous people in a particular

5    group, cultural group, like the Mi'kmaq people, Mi'kmaw.

6    Their embodiment of where they come from, there is a general

7    understanding.     There is the sun, there is the earth, there

8    is Glooscap and all the other entities around him.                  There is

9    a general adherence to that belief that we are all related

10   to each other and we belong to the land and so on.                  I'm

11   sorry, can you frame your question again?

12   Q.     Your definition of oral history and oral tradition.

13   A.     Okay.   In the traditional oral tradition, it is a

14   collective memory of all the Mi'kmaq people of their past

15   history, their past traditions, their past organization,

16   their past activities, traditional activities - hunting,

17   fishing, gathering, collecting and so on.             It's embodied in
18   everybody and it gets passed down in songs.              It gets passed

19   down in ceremonies, in narratives, in dances, in drumming.

20   Also, in stories.      And so this is more or less the oral

21   tradition, which can span as far back as the memory can take

22   us about our culture.

23          Now the oral history is more or less a methodological

24   approach of collecting information.           Oral history can be a


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Cross-Exam. on qualifications

1    person being interviewed about medicines and the person

2    could either be writing notes down or having a tape recorder

3    or a video camera and recording that particular individual's

4    life experience about what they have experienced in their

5    lifetime and what they have seen or heard in their lifetime

6    and how they relate that.         That's more a methodological

7    approach of doing oral tradition. It could be about the Jews

8    during the war and the Holocaust.           It could be about Turks.

9     It could be anybody who could talk about their personal

10   experience about a war experience or whatever.               That is the

11   method involved in recording those voices in that context

12   and those experiences.

13   Q.      When you are doing that sort of work, do you make a

14   distinction between what actually happened, the recorded

15   past, or what people believe might have happened in the

16   past?    How do you distinguish between those two in your

17   capacity when you are assessing oral history and oral
18   tradition?

19   A.      Oral tradition would involve interpretation of dreams,

20   visions and more or less deal with an incident occurring in

21   relation to when I was born or when my grandmother was born

22   or when my grandmother canoed across to Newfoundland or

23   there was a natural disaster or there was some particular

24   event, a big snowstorm or an icestorm.             It could have been


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Cross-Exam. on qualifications

1    when a young person might have shot a moose for the first

2    time.    Those time frames are -- it's incidences that are

3    recorded around particular events, around a particular land

4    formation.     It could be around Glooscap's Mountain or around

5    a certain inlet or around a river.            A particular incident

6    may have occurred.       A starvation or a moose didn't come this

7    year or caribou didn't come and it was a hard winter.                So

8    oral tradition would more or less focus on that while oral

9    history would identify a particular moment in that person's

10   lifetime.      More recent, depending on the age of that person.

11   Q.      So tradition is more of a global concept within the

12   community and history is the individual's recollection of an

13   incident?

14   A.      Yes.

15   Q.      Is it, in this concept of oral tradition, is it

16   possible to derive knowledge about what people understood

17   over 200 years ago from what they understand today occurred
18   200 years ago?

19   A.      Yes, in the context that the Mi'kmaq Grand Council is

20   organized in such a way that we would read past treaties.

21   We would read the wampum belts.           We would re-enact the

22   ceremonies that were practiced traditionally by our people,

23   and, in this way, these ceremonies involve relationships

24   between families, relationships between communities and


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Cross-Exam. on qualifications

1    relationships between neighbouring communities.              And so it

2    was contiguous to the survival of indigenous nations, like

3    the Mi'kmaq, to ensure that these activities continued, even

4    symbolically.

5    Q.     When you're reviewing the history that you're talking

6    about, and your studies, when you look at Mi'kmaq oral

7    history and oral tradition, do you view it as a Mi'kmaq or

8    someone who has training in the western historical

9    tradition?    I'm thinking of your training in university plus

10   your seminar training and your current employment where you

11   have obviously have ongoing on-the-job training, I guess,

12   "OJT," we call it, I guess, or government used to call it.

13   A.     Yes.

14   Q.     How do you review it?      Do you review it as a Mi'kmaq or

15   as somebody who has got an education that allows you to go

16   in and make a critical assessment of this oral history and

17   oral tradition?
18   A.     Well, first of all, I am a Mi'kmaq on the Grand Council

19   from Big Cove.     I look at it from that context from an

20   experiential context.       Then I look at my educational

21   training that has allowed me to look at documentation and be

22   able to determine what kind of information that I am looking

23   for.   At the beginning, usually there is a sense of

24   direction it gives you, where this article or document is


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Cross-Exam. on qualifications

1    going and what kind of information does it record and how

2    does it record it and who is it about and what is it about

3    and those main questions you start to ask yourself.                  And I

4    credit that to my academic education, to be able to

5    critically analyze documentation.

6    Q.     We've heard evidence in this Court and I'm just

7    wondering, from your experience and your knowledge, not only

8    as a Mi'kmaq individual and elder and hereditary chief, is

9    their culture, the Mi'kmaq culture, primarily an oral

10   culture?

11   A.     Primarily, yes, because it is not taught in the schools

12   about our history or culture, about our treaties, our

13   relationships with Europeans.          It is not taught in a formal

14   way in schools.

15   Q.     Was there any form of hieroglyphic developed by the

16   Mi'kmaq prior to European contact or European contact?

17   A.     There was a form of symbols that had been utilized by
18   the indigenous people to convey message on trails, on boats

19   in the waters, on the land and the river systems, marking on

20   trees and so on, as well as on their own clothing, on the

21   hats of women that may gather.           There are particular designs

22   on the hat that would identify a particular woman at a

23   ceremony to determine whether she was the chief's wife,

24   grand chief's mother, chief's daughter, or chief's sister.


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Cross-Exam. on qualifications

1    In this way, younger members of the tribe would not

2    inappropriately approach a lady for asking the wrong kind of

3    questions.    These markings differentiated also hereditary

4    chiefs that would have come from certain districts and so

5    on.

6           When the missionaries arrived, LeClerc developed a

7    standardized system of these hieroglyphics and began to

8    teach the Indians about prayers.          Maillard also further

9    developed these and [Crowder?] and they published books, and

10   most recently, David Schmidt published a book on these

11   hieroglyph.

12   Q.     I note on your outline that you will be referring to

13   some works that are in Exhibit 17 by Ms. Cruikshank.

14   A.     Yes.

15   Q.     She is an anthropologist, is she not?

16   A.     She is.

17   Q.     And you have a basis in anthropology in your -- In your
18   work, do you follow her opinions or do you just use her as a

19   reference?

20   A.     I follow some of her opinions but I have also other

21   opinions about some aspects of it, but I will go into that

22   in more detail.

23   Q.     This form of hieroglyphics, it was developed when, 17th

24   century, 16th century?


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Cross-Exam. on qualifications

1    A.      When LeClerc arrived, he --

2    Q.      Okay, so it's post contact.

3    A.      Yes.

4    Q.      And it's a form of communication, is it not?

5    A.      It was a communication that was standardized by LeClerc

6    in order to facilitate him teaching the Lord's Prayer and

7    Catholic prayers to the Mi'kmaq people.

8    Q.      Is the wampum or wampum belt a form of communication as

9    well?

10   A.      Yes, it is.

11   Q.      It is a form of written communication, is it not?

12   A.      More symbolically than written.          It is a construction

13   of wampum quahog shells that are almost a quarter of an inch

14   in height and about the same in diameter and they have been

15   strung on sinew and they form figures on a belt that is

16   strung together by these quahog shells and there are symbols

17   on the belt that might indicate a pipe or a wigwam or other
18   elements, individuals, and these are just more or less

19   representations and symbols of a larger discussion that

20   might have taken place and an interpretation of that larger

21   discussion is minimized to a symbol and whoever reads the

22   wampum tries to replicate the context of that speech that

23   was given.

24   Q.      So each time it's read by a different individual, it


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Cross-Exam. on qualifications

1    could be read differently.

2    A.     There would be not a transcript that somebody would

3    have to read.     You would have to --

4    Q.     Interpret it.

5    A.     Yes.

6    Q.     Now you mentioned ways of expressing this oral or

7    relating the oral tradition.         Tings like stories, legends,

8    myths, songs, dances.       Do you distinguish between these

9    various forms of expression of the oral tradition, or are

10   they all just expressed the same way, or is there a

11   difference?     Is there one mode that expresses it differently

12   than another?

13   A.     I don't understand the exact context.

14   Q.     Well, when you go out into the community, as in your

15   capacity from the museum, and you're going to a community

16   that you have never been to before and you're assessing -- I

17   suppose you've probably been to quite a few.             And you want
18   to assess some of their oral traditions and you go through

19   your protocols and your methodology and you want to assess

20   that oral tradition and some of it is expressed to you in

21   different forms, and I believe you mentioned there was

22   dances, there's song, there's the dreams or the myths.              Is

23   there a difference in how you assess those or do you assess

24   them all in the same way?


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Cross-Exam. on qualifications

1    A.      You would have to, in terms of the kind of assessment,

2    in terms of eliciting some sense of knowledge from that --

3    I'm still trying to -- Like maybe a song or a particular

4    song of a particular community, I would more or less, in

5    order to analyze that, I would want to determine when that

6    song is sung in relation to what activity, who has the --

7    who is the bearer of that song and how did they come to sing

8    that song and what does the song mean.             In that context,

9    this is how I would analyze.

10   Q.      So I gather from what you're saying then, it's not just

11   the song.     It's when it's related, how it's related and by

12   whom.    So there is a whole bunch of things that you take

13   into consideration when you consider the tradition of that

14   particular item?

15   A.      Yes, you would have to establish the context of that

16   particular -- I just still didn't fully understand the

17   context of that.
18   Q.      My apologies.    Do you have any training in

19   historiographic from the museum?           Have you done any

20   historiographic work at all?

21   A.      I did more of my historiographic training is during my

22   qualifying year at UNB for Masters in History.

23   Q.      That was the three of four months --

24   A.      No, I did one full year at UNB and then one semester in


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Cross-Exam. on qualifications

1    the Masters program, and it was more or less on the

2    historiosicity and historicity, historicism, methodologies

3    in gathering information in the historical context plus the

4    -- most of my studies was on Loyalist history in the east

5    coast from the American Revolution to the settlement of New

6    Brunswick as a colony.

7    Q.     I note as well that you're going to be mentioning and

8    you're going to be relating some -- the creation story and a

9    couple of other types of stories that are part of the

10   Mi'kmaq culture.      Is there any oral traditions that are

11   secret that the community would never disclose to outsiders?

12   A.     Yes, there are.

13   Q.     Would they be individually with regards to the

14   community or would they be in regards to the background of

15   the Mi'kmaq community or nation rather than one individual,

16   particular individual?

17   A.     It is most of them are individually based, like a
18   family story or a family experience in the past or a certain

19   legend that is told is particular to that family.

20   Q.     I guess we would refer to it in our parlance as "the

21   skeleton in the closet" sort of thing.

22   A.     I don't know, but there are also stories that

23   communities don't want to share and then there are stories

24   as well the whole Mi'kmaq Nation might not want --


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Cross-Exam. on qualifications

1    Q.     Okay.

2    A.     -- either at the Grand Council or at the band level.

3    Q.     And I note, in general, the -- in your publications,

4    the majority of them, if not all of them, when you deal with

5    the Mi'kmaq are primarily with your own background in New

6    Brunswick, is that not -- would that be true without going

7    into too much detail?       There's some peripheral specifics

8    with regards to some of the communities in Nova Scotia?

9    A.     Well --

10   Q.     For example, is there anything dealing with the

11   Eskasoni or the Membertou, Whycocomagh areas like in Cape

12   Breton in any detail or is it just generalization in any of

13   those publications?

14   A.     For the publications?

15   Q.     Uh-huh, things --

16   A.     They're more contiguous to all of the Mi'kmaq Nation.

17   Q.     But they're titled --
18   A.     Not just New Brunswick alone.

19   Q.     Okay.   They're titled Big Cove.        That is a specific

20   reserve, the "Mi'kmaq History of Big Cove"?

21   A.     Yes.

22   Q.     Okay.   And that would cover the reserve at Big Cove

23   itself, would it not?

24   A.     It begins with the creation story and talks about the


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Cross-Exam. on qualifications

1    Mi'kmaq as a nation and how the relationship with the

2    Europeans --

3    Q.     Okay.     So the creation story and the relationship with

4    the Europeans is in general.            Have you written anything

5    specific about any of the reserves in Nova Scotia other than

6    sort of in general terms?

7    A.     No.

8    Q.     As a hereditary chief, I take it that's passed down

9    from father to son type of position?

10   A.     Yes.

11   Q.     It's not an elected position, is it?

12   A.     No.

13   Q.     Okay.     And because of the ancestral heritage it makes

14   you a hereditary chief.           Now you're a captain in the Grand

15   Council, correct?

16   A.     Yes.

17   Q.     Of the Mi'kmaq First Nation?
18   A.     [no audible response]

19   Q.     Is the Grand Council is responsible over all reserves

20   in the Maritimes Mi'kmaq reserves?

21   A.     It's responsible for all of the area of territory in

22   Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island.                  As I was

23   explaining in my explanation of what the Grand Council

24   encompassed, it's responsible for on-reserve and off-reserve


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Cross-Exam. on qualifications

1    as well.

2    Q.     Okay.   And as a member of the Grand Council, you -- do

3    you report to the Grand Chief or how does that hereditary

4    function, is it -- what I'm thinking of it's sort of like

5    the House of Lords in England where the British had these

6    hereditary lords.       Is it ceremonial or is it a functionary

7    position?

8    A.     It's a combination of ceremonial, political, spiritual

9    and I don't think I can equate it to the European system of

10   governing things or hierarchy of order, I have orders that

11   you have to do this or it's more an embodiment of all of

12   Mi'kmaq life and culture and traditions and spiritualities.

13    And those responsibilities to each other and to the Grand

14   Council are more or less consensual.

15   Q.     Do they have any political responsibility over the

16   Mi'kmaq Nation as far as direction and guidance and --

17   A.     Oh, definitely.
18   Q.     -- polity?

19   A.     Definitely, yes.      That includes part of it and it's not

20   just the political.

21   Q.     And as a captain of that Grand Council, you're -- and

22   in regards to your research and everything, you can be

23   impartial with regards to your commitment to the Grand

24   Council as a hereditary chief?


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Cross-Exam. on qualifications

1    A.     Impartial in what sense?

2    Q.     Your obligations and your impartiality of your -- where

3    your evidence is, where it will be coming from.               Do you feel

4    impartial or do you feel committed?

5    A.     I can't -- I don't know how you --

6    Q.     Can you separate your responsibilities as a witness

7    from your commitment to the Grand Council?

8    A.     Oh, yes, definitely.

9    MR. CLARKE         That would be all the questions, Your Honour.

10   THE COURT Mr. Wildsmith?

11              ARGUMENT RE QUALIFICATIONS - MR. WILDSMITH

12   MR. WILDSMITH      I have not a great deal to say, I guess, at

13   this point.     No further questions for Chief Augustine.

14          With respect to his qualifications, I think we have run

15   through the fact that in addition to all of his expertise

16   that the Crown concedes with respect to being Mi'kmaq, his

17   areas of responsibility at the Museum of Civilization
18   include Indians of Eastern North America and, indeed, it

19   seems like his area of expertise extends to Eastern

20   Algonkian speakers, but certainly is including a fair degree

21   of expertise relating to Penobscot, Maliseet, Passamaquoddy,

22   the other aboriginal peoples who live in Northeastern North

23   America.

24          What I seek to qualify him with respect to I believe


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     ARGUMENT RE QUALIFICATIONS - MR. WILDSMITH


1    corresponds with what Judge [Lorden?] qualified him for with

2    respect to his testimony at least in the Bernard case in New

3    Brunswick with the exception that Judge Lorden was not

4    comfortable, if I can put it that way, with the term "ethno-

5    historian."    And my understanding of where he was coming

6    from was that you had Dr. Wicken who had a Ph.D. and was in

7    the discipline of ethno-history, and I think that with

8    respect to Judge Lorden, he was looking for somebody not who

9    had expertise in the area, period, but somebody who had a

10   Ph.D. or an equivalent background to Dr. Wicken.

11          In our submission, there are different levels, you

12   might say, and I think, in essence, what we have in Chief

13   Augustine is somebody with greater expertise about the

14   Mi'kmaq side of or the ethno side of it, but less expertise

15   perhaps on the side of being an historian, but, yet, it

16   should not change the fact that that is the discipline

17   within which he works and within which he's been trained and
18   within which he has experience and within which his role at

19   the Museum of Civilization requires him to actually

20   participate.     So while you could set the bar at different

21   levels, it would seem to me that on the standard test of

22   who's an expert vis-a-vis this court, that Chief Augustine

23   qualifies and should be treated with sufficient respect to

24   be called an ethno-historian.         That's what he does.

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     ARGUMENT RE QUALIFICATIONS - MR. WILDSMITH


1    THE COURT Thank you. Mr. Clarke?

2                 ARGUMENT RE QUALIFICATIONS - MR. CLARKE

3    MR. CLARKE        Clarification, Your Honour, I believe, I know

4    that Mr. Augustine or Chief Augustine was not sure what he

5    had been qualified as.       On page 93 of the transcript in the

6    Bernard case, Judge Lorden qualified him, just for

7    clarification, "I will declare the witness as an expert in

8    aboriginal peoples of Eastern North America qualified to

9    give opinion evidence with respect to their language, their

10   culture, their customs, their ceremonies, oral history, and

11   oral traditions.      And that was the same qualification that

12   Judge Lorden provided Mr. Augustine in the [Vinyl Paul?]

13   case, which, I think, Mr. or Chief Augustine referred to as

14   the Francis case, which was subsequent to the Bernard

15   testimony.

16          The restriction on the ethno-historian, from the

17   Crown's perspective, is that, from the Crown's perspective,
18   Chief Augustine has vast knowledge.           He has experience in a

19   lot of fields.     His resume speaks for itself and the CV

20   speaks for itself with his understanding and comprehension

21   of his community, "his community" being the Mi'kmaq

22   community specifically.        The Crown has no quarrel with that.

23          The ethno-historian takes that expertise into a

24   different field, from the Crown's perspective, as not only

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     ARGUMENT RE QUALIFICATIONS - MR. CLARKE

1    must he be able to understand and comprehend the community,

2    but he must also have some form of, I would think,

3    professional or educational training beyond what we have

4    heard today, which is a number of history courses at the

5    B.A. level and coursing at the Master's level.              Yes, he's

6    done some archival or archival research.            I don't believe,

7    from the Crown's perspective, it would qualify in the same

8    area as what Dr. Reid and Dr. Wicken have been qualified

9    before this Court.

10          I believe, from the Crown's perspective, that we don't

11   have any quarrel with his qualification to be able to speak

12   on behalf of the Mi'kmaq and their European relations in

13   Eastern North America, specifically with the qualifications

14   regarding language, culture, and the oral tradition and oral

15   history of the Mi'kmaq.

16          We quarrel with the quasi-professional qualification of

17   an ethno-historian.
18          Dr. Wicken himself is an academic; he teaches; he's

19   written in the field.       The work that -- the papers and the

20   publications that, and due respect to Chief Augustine, are

21   specific to the community, the East Coast, but I don't think

22   it takes us into the qualification of an ethno-historian,

23   but we'd have no quarrel with him being able to give expert

24   opinion on the aboriginal people's perspective, especially


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1    the Mi'kmaq-European relations in Eastern North America.

2    That's all.

3    MR. WILDSMITH    If I could add one footnote, Your Honour.

4    THE COURT Go ahead.

5             ARGUMENT ON QUALIFICATIONS - MR. WILDSMITH

6    MR. WILDSMITH    Notice that the statement of qualifications

7    is with respect to the aboriginal perspective on aboriginal-

8    European relationships.      I think the concern that Judge

9    Lorden had, which is acknowledged in this statement, is that

10   Chief Augustine won't be asked about the British or the

11   European perspective or the European practices or the

12   British practices.    That kind of information has come in

13   through Dr. Reid and Dr. Wicken.        So what he will be

14   restricting himself to in his testimony is the aboriginal

15   perspective on that relationship and that documentation.

16                      DECISION RE QUALIFICATIONS

17   THE COURT A person can acquire the expertise necessary to be
18   recognized as an expert for purposes of testifying through

19   training, through experience or through a combination of the

20   two things.   There isn't any specific background that every

21   person must have in order to be found to be an expert in a

22   certain field.   No doubt there are elements that would have

23   to be found that would apply to everyone, but I think it's

24   quite clearly the case that whatever the field might be,


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     DECISION RE QUALIFICATIONS

1    having a Ph.D. in that field is not a necessary requirement

2    for expertise to be recognized.

3           Chief Augustine has testified during this part of the

4    proceedings with great clarity and a total absence of jargon

5    so I was able to understand everything that he was talking

6    about, at least to the extent I can know about these things

7    at all.   And at one point in describing how or what his

8    evidence had been previously and what he had been qualified

9    to testify about previously, he said, now this is not an

10   exact quotation, but this is more or less what he said, that

11   he had quite an extensive knowledge of the groups, and he

12   included there all of the groups that he's been asked by the

13   defence to be qualified on, and their history and the

14   treaties and their relationship with the Europeans both

15   through oral tradition and academically.

16          And I think that's a very good description of what I've

17   heard about the background that he has had.              There's not the
18   slightest doubt in my mind that that does qualify him to

19   testify as an ethno-historian.          He does know a great deal,

20   obviously, about the history of all of these peoples,

21   including the other eastern groups which were mentioned and

22   he works as an ethnologist, obviously recognized by the

23   Government of Canada as an expert in that area and the work

24   that he does quite clearly involves a considerable


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1    historical aspect.

2           As I say, I don't think there's any doubt at all that

3    he qualifies.      Not in the same way as Dr. Wicken was

4    qualified.     They've taken different paths to reach the point

5    of being qualified to testify as experts in this area.

6    That's not picking one over the other.             I'm just saying

7    there's more than one route to get to that point.

8           I'm more than satisfied that Chief Augustine has

9    followed one of them and is qualified to testify exactly as

10   described in the qualifications that were suggested by the

11   defence.

12   MR. WILDSMITH      I don't want to be redundant, Your Honour,

13   I'm not sure if I read into the record, and this document

14   wasn't intended to go into the record, so perhaps I'll just

15   confirm that what he's qualified --

16   THE COURT I'm sorry, do you want me to read it?               I've got it

17   here in front of me --
18   MR. WILDSMITH      Yes.

19   THE COURT -- and I will.

20                      Qualified as an expert ethno-historian able

21                      to give expert opinion evidence on the

22                      aboriginal peoples and the aboriginal

23                      perspective on aboriginal-European

24                      relationships in Eastern North America,


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     DECISION RE QUALIFICATIONS

1                      including the language, culture, and oral

2                      traditions and oral history of the Mi'kmaq

3                      Nation Indians.

4    MR. WILDSMITH     Thank you, Your Honour.         Would you like to

5    take the morning break now?

6    THE COURT Perhaps we could do that?

7    COURT RECESSED

8    COURT RESUMED

9    THE COURT Mr. Wildsmith.

10                            DIRECT EXAMINATION

11   MR. WILDSMITH     Thank you, Your Honour, I have two more

12   pieces of paper here to mark as exhibits.             They've been

13   marked first Exhibit 45, which is called The Mi'kmaq

14   Creation Story Outline, and Exhibit 46, which is Ancestors

15   According to Oral Tradition of Alguimou and Augustine. And

16   just at the outset, Chief Augustine, would you just identify

17   what they are and then we'll come back to them later.
18   Exhibit 45 first, the document that's called The Mi'kmaq

19   Creation Story.

20   EXHIBIT 45 [ENTERED] - THE MI'KMAQ CREATION STORY OUTLINE

21   EXHIBIT 46 [ENTERED] - ANCESTORS ACCORDING TO ORAL TRADITION

22   OF ALGUIMOU AND AUGUSTINE

23   A.     This is an outline of the creation story itself with

24   the Mi'kmaq names written on one side to explain what these


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    names mean in relation to the story that I am going to

2    relate later on in my testimony.

3    Q.     Okay.   And did you prepare these two pages, the

4    outline?

5    A.     Yes, I did.

6    Q.     Okay.   Thank you.      And Exhibit 46?

7    A.     Exhibit 46 is in relation to the -- my family history,

8    the line of descent in the Alguimou clan as well as

9    Augustine.     Alguimou was baptized as Augustine in 1747 and

10   the line of descent from thereon to myself.

11   Q.     And on the second page, the last name that appears in

12   the line of descent is Stephen Joseph Augustine?

13   A.     That's me, yes.

14   Q.     That's you.     Okay.    And we'll come to that in a few

15   moments.    My first question to you then, following the

16   evidence outline, is this, what can you say about the

17   Mi'kmaq system of knowledge?          How is knowledge kept and
18   recorded and transmitted within Mi'kmaq society?

19   A.     Mi'kmaq knowledge is basically in the oral tradition

20   and a lot of the information and knowledge is passed down

21   from generation to generation, from grandmother,

22   grandparents, great-grandparents to their children and their

23   grandchildren and so on.         A lot of the information is held

24   in stories, like the creation story.


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1           Other stories that have been identified by writers,

2    like Silas Rand, who was a linguist studying the Mi'kmaq

3    language in the 1800s, who collected a series of legends.

4    He refers to them as legends.         These are stories that --

5    about our culture and our tradition, our relationship to the

6    land and so on.     It embodies that as well as songs,

7    ceremonies, sweet grass ceremonies, tobacco ceremony, pipe

8    ceremonies, sweat lodge ceremony, sharing ceremonies and so

9    on.

10   Q.     What kind of information would be recorded in that

11   system of knowledge that would have to do with political

12   structure, leadership, territoriality?

13   A.     Information would be more or less family stories,

14   family stories and then family stories in relation to land,

15   places where events occurred and how the families were

16   involved or attached to these places.

17          It also involves events that occurred over these places
18   and so the transference of knowledge relates to those

19   elements as well as elements that touch upon the spiritual

20   realm dealing with figures like Glooscap, his nephew, Martin

21   Apistanootj.     And so --

22   Q.     Sorry, I missed that word.

23   A.     A-P-I-S-T-A-N-O-O-T-J.       And it would involve those

24   kinds of relationships with grandmothers, grandfathers,


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    children, mothers and animal, as well, experiences with

2    animals.      It would identify a particular species of animal,

3    like a rabbit.      It would talk about -- The oral tradition

4    can talk about that relationship of that rabbit with the

5    people, in terms of its applying itself for food, it having

6    white fur and brown fur and some of its physical

7    characteristics would be explainable through those creation

8    stories and --

9    Q.     Would they deal with issues such as who were the

10   Mi'kmaq, where did they live, how was their traditional

11   economy structured?

12   A.     Yes.

13   Q.     How was their political organization structured?

14   A.     It would embody that sort of knowledge or information,

15   but in the context that oral tradition comes down to us, it

16   doesn't separate spiritual, physical, political, social

17   elements.     It doesn't say this is a social story about
18   rabbit and the Mi'kmaq.         It would explain the relationship

19   and the interconnectiveness of everything around an

20   individual in a community and a rabbit and so on.

21   Q.     Okay, and what about the concepts, and I know that my

22   friend, Mr. Clarke, explored this with you a bit in his

23   cross-examination on your qualifications, but I would like

24   to bring it out again, about the concepts of oral tradition


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    and oral history and how knowledge and information is

2    carried within the Mi'kmaq community through those concepts?

3    A.      Throughout our -- Could you repeat that?

4    A.      I'm asking about oral tradition, what is that; oral

5    history, what is that?

6    Q.      Oral tradition is a combination of all of the

7    information that is known collectively in the collective

8    memory of a community in our Mi'kmaq community about our

9    culture, our traditions, our spiritual ceremonies, our

10   relationships with each other as human beings in our

11   communities as well as our neighbouring nations and so on.

12   It would embody those traditions about how those

13   relationships would have been maintained or enhanced in the

14   past.

15   Q.      Would they be recorded in stories and legends?

16   A.      They would be recorded in stories and legends and

17   songs.
18   Q.      And other bits of information as well?

19   A.      Yes.

20   Q.      Okay, and what about oral history?

21   A.      Oral history would be information that an individual

22   would be able to relate about what he experienced, what he

23   observed and what he knows in his own particular or her own

24   particular lifetime, and to be able to offer insights into


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    those experiences.

2    Q.      How is it that you would come to know the oral

3    tradition and oral history of the Mi'kmaq?

4    A.      Being a descendant of the original signer of the treaty

5    in 1760, Michel Augustine, and others before him, Algimou,

6    the name appears in various formations, but in our language,

7    it means Algimou, A-L-G-I-M-O-U.           It is to be like a loon or

8    to behave like a loon or to have that characteristics of a

9    loon.    In Mi'kmaq, the name "loon" is Algimou -- or gimou.

10   Q.      And Exhibit 46 that you have already identified, has

11   those two words on it, does it not.            Gimou, the loon; G-U-I-

12   M-O-U.     As well as Algimou.

13   A.      Yes.   So it came to a point in time for the Mi'kmaq

14   people in eastern Canada that the Government of Canada was

15   formed in provinces and there was a division of territories

16   and a responsibility to look after the Indians went to the

17   federal Department of Indian Affairs and so, therefore,
18   Indian Reserves were established.

19           There was also missionary work that was done by the

20   church and the priests and they were given the sole

21   responsibility to enhance the religions element, the

22   Catholic religion among the Mi'kmaq people and to be put on

23   Indian Reserves.       In that context, a lot of the traditional

24   activities were discouraged and to the extent that the


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    Mi'kmaq people began to lose contact with their own history

2    and their own traditions and their own ceremonies.                  And so

3    my great-grandfather and my grandfather and my father

4    basically didn't participate too much in the Grand Council

5    and its structure because it had been more concerned about

6    trying to obtain living off the land and so they weren't

7    more or less concerned about how the structure of the Grand

8    Council was to survive and so my father and my grandfather

9    were not involved in the Grand Council.            Not until such a

10   point that I was asked to participate, being the direct

11   descendant of the Augustine clan and the Alguimou clan who

12   had traditionally been involved in the Grand Council all

13   along.

14   Q.     So your knowledge about the oral traditions and oral

15   history --

16   A.     My knowledge came to me from my grandmother, Agnes

17   Augustine, her maiden name is Thomas.           She was originally
18   from Lennox Island, Prince Edward Island, and she married my

19   grandfather, who was 40 years her senior, when she was 13

20   years old.    So she was able to hear stories from my

21   grandfather, who talked about stories about his great-

22   grandfather, having signed treaties in the Maritimes

23   Provinces and explaining about the ceremonies that were

24   attached to those treaties.


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1            And the Creation Story happened to be one of those

2    stories that was attached to the relationship between

3    ourselves, the land, as well as with other people, and it

4    was a way of conducting ourselves in our lives, I guess, as

5    a means of survival on the land with the animals and with

6    other people.      So the Creation Story        forms that foundation

7    of knowledge in the Mi'kmaq society.

8    Q.      Do you interact with other members of the Grand Council

9    or other elders in the community to obtain information from

10   them about the oral tradition and oral knowledge?

11   A.      Yes, I participate in the Grand Council meetings every

12   year.    They are still functioning around the church and the

13   missionaries, because of treaty arrangements and agreements

14   that we entered into with the French in 1610 when our Grand

15   Chief Membertou accepted baptism on June 24, on the Feast of

16   St. Jean Baptiste.       When he accepted, he offered the

17   protection of the Mi'kmaq to the French.             He offered
18   protection for the French by the Mi'kmaq people.               That the

19   Mi'kmaq would not hinder or bother the French.               In the same

20   context, the French offered in exchange protection by the

21   French by the Vatican.

22   Q.      Okay, we'll come around to the wampum belts, but you

23   mentioned about meeting at Chapel Island of the Grand

24   Council.


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    A.     And because of that influence and that agreement, the

2    coming together at Chapel Island on the Feast of St. Anne

3    has organized our Grand Council around there in respect of

4    that exchange agreement with the French.

5    Q.     How long has that been going on?

6    A.     Well, since 1610, more specifically, 1635, the mission

7    was established and a chapel was built on Chapel Island.

8    Q.     Where is Chapel Island, just to put it in the record?

9    A.     It's in Omamagi, in Cape Breton, near St. Peter's.

10   Q.     Okay.   You spelled Omamagi before and I see that it's

11   also spelled on Exhibit 46.          Just to divert here for a

12   moment, are there different orthographies for recording the

13   Mi'kmaq language?

14   A.     There are about five different orthographies right now

15   that are in existence.        LeClerc, when he developed the

16   hieroglyphics in the early 1600s, mid-1600s, he used the

17   French alphabet, their French pronunciation system to record
18   the Mi'kmaq language, for his own benefit.                It wasn't

19   utilized to teach anybody.

20          Maillard relied on those documents to learn the

21   hieroglyph himself and to further advance his work on

22   developing a more refined hieroglyphic writing system in the

23   Mi'kmaq.    But Maillard continued the same linguistic, the

24   writing system as LeClerc because of the French


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    pronunciation and their knowledge of linguistic

2    terminologies and the symbols that are used to record.

3           Later on by the 1800s, Thomas Irwin from Nova Scotia,

4    Prince Edward Island --

5    Q.     Thomas who?

6    A.     Irwin, I-R-W-I-N, developed an interest and recorded

7    the Mi'kmaq language using an English alphabet and he tried

8    to publish some material on this and he was not able to and

9    gave his work over to Silas Rand, who developed another form

10   of an English alphabet recording the Mi'kmaq language.

11          Again, finally, around the turn of the century, 1900,

12   Father Pierre Pacifique from Restigouche recorded the

13   language again in French with a different linguistic, with a

14   different alphabet or different orthography.

15          And then later on, Don [DeBlois?]          who worked at the

16   Museum of Civilization, developed another form that was

17   different than Rand's and I believe Bernie Francis, from
18   Cape Breton, also developed another form.             And I am aware of

19   another one that is being developed by [Manny Metallic] in

20   Restigouche.

21   Q.     So there are a whole variety of ones.              Which ones are

22   you using or which one are you using when you provide

23   spellings to different words?

24   A.     I can read all of them, basically, but I am more


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    comfortable using with Rand's -- not Rand but Father

2    Pacifique's system because of people in my community, in Big

3    Cove, have relied on Father Pacifique's system of writing.

4    But I interspersedly, in order to facilitate some spelling,

5    I borrow from Bernie Francis as well because it's a more

6    simpler English orthography.         I mean, using the English

7    alphabet.

8    Q.     So we have talked about you acquiring knowledge through

9    the Grand Council meetings and the interactions that take

10   place there.     What other sources do you have for

11   information?

12   A.     Over the last 26, 27 years, I have been employed by the

13   federal, by the provincial, by native organizations and

14   bands across most of the Atlantic region and it has enabled

15   me to visit most native communities because a lot of the

16   work that I was doing was delivering a service to the

17   aboriginal people as well as interpreting the culture and
18   traditions of our people to the government people who were

19   providing the service to native communities.             So I have had

20   a lot of opportunity to visit the local communities, talk to

21   elders and hear stories and songs and record their stories

22   or songs or whatever.

23   Q.     Does that include visiting communities and speaking to

24   people who would be in the present day province of Nova


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    Scotia?

2    A.     Yes.

3    Q.     Are you familiar with and have you visited and talked

4    to people from all or some or most of the reserves?

5    A.     I visited all Mi'kmaq communities, all 30 of them in

6    the Maritime provinces.         Even in Newfoundland, Conne River.

7    Q.     Have you spoken with elders from those communities?

8    A.     I have spoken to elders in our own language and

9    recorded stories and exchanged stories and compared stories.

10   Q.     As a result of that process, do you have information to

11   share with us that goes from pre-contact times to the

12   present?

13   A.     Yes, I will be able to relate the Creation Story and

14   some of the stories of my grandfather and other stories in

15   relation to relationships between the Mohawk or the Gwedech.

16    They were recognized as a Gwedech.            G-W-E-D-E-C-H.        Or

17   sometimes it's spelled with K-W-E-D-E-C-H.
18   Q.     And they're the Mohawk, are they?

19   A.     They're identified as the Mohawk people.

20   Q.     Okay.

21   A.     And also stories that relate our relationships with the

22   Penobscot, Passamaquoddy and Maliseet people and the Inuit

23   people.

24   Q.     Would it relate to issues of land use and occupancy and


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    trade, Mi'kmaq economy, Mi'kmaq political organization from

2    that time period towards the present?

3    A.     It would include that information but not specifically

4    only that information.

5    Q.     Fair enough.       Perhaps I could take you back to Exhibit

6    46 now, since we have talked about some of the things that

7    are on Exhibit 46, and you mentioned your grandmother, if I

8    remember correctly, who came from Prince Edward Island.

9    A.     Yes.

10   Q.     Is she identified on this?

11   A.     No.    Yes, on the bottom, under the date, 1871, Thomas

12   Theophile Basil Tom Augustine was born at Humphrey's Mill,

13   near Moncton, who was the son of Thomas Augustine and

14   Theodus Knockwood.         And Basil Tom married Agnes Thomas of

15   Lennox Island, Prince Edward Island.              She was born June 14,

16   1898 and died December 7th, 1899 -- I mean 1998, sorry.                She

17   was over a hundred years old when she passed away.
18   Q.     And if we look from that reference to 1871 and Thomas

19   Theofield Basil Tom Augustine, and we look over to the next

20   page, we see his name appearing there, do we, and your line

21   of descent?

22   A.     Yes, Thomas would have been my father's father.

23   Q.     And so your grandmother would have fit at that point in

24   the chart.


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                            Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4031

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    A.     Yes.

2    Q.     Beside Basil Tom Augustine.

3    A.     Yes.   He was a brother of Noel Tom Augustine, who was

4    my great-great-grandfather on my mother's side.

5    Q.     Yes, what this line of descent is showing is that you

6    come from two descendants of Tom Augustine.

7    A.     It was some way and my grandmother explained to me that

8    our people maintained our linage.          They would be more or

9    less cross-generational marriages.           Where, in fact, my

10   father would have been my great-grandmother's first cousin,

11   and I would have been in my grandfather's generation on my

12   mother's side.

13   Q.     Yes, so to put this together, because I'm not very good

14   at this first cousins and all the different ways of

15   explaining this, both your mother and father are descendants

16   that could go back to Michel Augustine.

17   A.     Yes.
18   Q.     All right.   I am not sure that it's necessary to go

19   through the details of Exhibit 46 that you have prepared

20   here, but do we see Michel Augustine on here from 1760s?

21   A.     1730 is the approximate birth date of Chief Michel

22   Augustine, baptized as an adult on August 27th, 1747.

23   Q.     How would you know that precise date?

24   A.     I have the copy of the certificate somewhere.                Not the


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4032

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    certificate but the information relating where his baptism

2    was recorded.      Then his son was Joseph Augustine and one of

3    the ways a lot of our people were able to record knowledge

4    about certain events, that they would take on the name of an

5    important person who had contacted him, more like a surveyor

6    general or a lieutenant-governor or a governor, and they

7    would take on the name.         In this case, Joseph Augustine

8    sometimes came out as Mitchell or Morris, and Mr. Morris was

9    a surveyor general at the time in that period who was

10   conducting surveys on lands around the reserves.

11   Q.      Yes, I think we have already seen references to Charles

12   Morris in Dr. Wicken's evidence.

13   A.      And then his son was Peter Joseph Augustine, who was a

14   chief in Richiboucto River in 1798 until about 1839.                 He

15   died about 1841 at a very, very old age.             I think they said

16   he was about 104 years old.          His son, Noel Augustine, did

17   not become chief because Moses Perley had commissioned a
18   Jacques Pierre Paul as Chief of the Richiboucto Tribe in

19   1841.    So Noel Augustine's son was Tom Augustine, and then

20   Tom had two sons, Noel Tom and Basil Tom.              He had other sons

21   as well but these were more important for me in my linage.

22   So they were named such in this line of descent of my

23   ancestors.

24   Q.      In the date of 1848, we see a reference to Tom


                Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4033

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    Augustine marrying Theotiste --

2    A.     Theotiste Knockwood.

3    Q.     And the word "nocout" appears there?

4    A.     Nacout, yeah.

5    Q.     What does that mean?

6    A.     It was more or less no coat.         They didn't wear a coat.

7    Q.     No coat.

8    A.     No coat.   The "no-coat" family more or less lived

9    around Moncton, around Peticodiac region, down into as far

10   as Springhill, Nova Scotia and further down.

11   Q.     Does this indicate at all whether the name Knockwood is

12   derived from Nacout?

13   A.     Yes, it does.

14   Q.     Is that your understanding?

15   A.     Yes, it is.    There are Knockwoods in Prince Edward

16   Island and in Nova Scotia and in New Brunswick as well.

17   They're the same group that are related from the Knockwoods
18   that she stems from.

19   Q.     There are Knockwoods in Shubenacadie.

20   A.     Yes.

21   Q.     Can you take us back to 1730 on this and Michel

22   Augustine and you've mentioned about Algimou.              Can you tell

23   us how Algimou became Augustine?

24   A.     Michel Augustine was baptized on Feast of St. Augustine


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4034

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    on August 27th, 1747 and was given the name Augustine.

2    There was a practice of the missionaries, when they baptized

3    somebody on a certain feast day, they attributed or gave

4    that name to the individual, a saint name, either Joseph.

5    Like my name, for instance, Stephen Joseph Augustine.               But

6    there was also names like Francis, Paul, Joseph, Peter,

7    Peter Paul.    Those are all saint names taken from feast days

8    in the Christian or Catholic calendar.

9    Q.     So does that explain why the name Algimou is used on

10   your Exhibit 46 for the 1400s, 1500s and 1600s?

11   A.     Yes, the name is Algimou and it appeared in various

12   formations throughout the early documentation.              Alguimou,

13   Algimatimg, Algimout, Argimout.          When Panoniac was killed in

14   Membertou's time in 1608 --

15   Q.     Who was killed?

16   A.     Panoniac.

17   Q.     Spelled?
18   A.     P-A-N-O-N-I-A-C.     There was a name applied to a person

19   who brought his body back and it was spelled A-R-G-I-M-O-U-

20   T.   And it's a French spelling and it's pronounced Argimou.

21   Q.     Okay, this Exhibit 46 indicates that your ancestor,

22   Peter Algimou, in the 1600s, lived in Cape Breton in the

23   District of Omamagi.

24   A.     Peter Algimou or Denys, they called him Pierre Denys or


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4035

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    Pierre Algimou.     He ended up being involved in a war and his

2    son, Tomas Denys, he and his son moved to Cape Breton and

3    the grand chief that was John Denys, he's a descendant of

4    that same family, from the Richiboucto River.

5    Q.     But the Denys moved to Cape Breton.

6    A.     Yes.

7    Q.     If you go back to the 1500s, there is some reference,

8    and I don't know if this is what you were referring to,

9    Algimou is Chief of the Richiboucto River District.

10   A.     Yes.

11   Q.     His brother, Denys, lived in Omamagi, and his other

12   brother, Pedousaghtigh.

13   A.      Pedousaghtigh lived in Esedeiik.

14   Q.     Which is Shediac.

15   A.     Yes.   There is another brother, Sabchaulauet, who lived

16   up in the Miramichi.       S-A-B-C-H-A-U-L-A-U-E-T.

17   Q.     Is that not the same name that we saw for someone who
18   signed the treaty in 1761 from Miramichi?

19   A.     Yes.

20   Q.     In the 1400s, the name is slightly different.

21   Algimatimg

22   A.     Algimatimg

23   Q.     Is that a predecessor name to Algimou?

24   A.     Yes.


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4036

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    Q.     And you're indicating in here that that individual

2    lives in a variety of locations?

3    A.     Yes.   The Algimou family was a very large family among

4    the Mi'kmaq people and there are a lot of stories and

5    traditions.    I will be able to talk about it when I arrive

6    to my grandfather's story about Listugutj and Nemisgog.

7    Q.     Could you just identify what those locations are that

8    are in modern day terms that are put in the Mi'kmaq language

9    in the 1400s here?

10   A.     Listugutj is that area or community around the Gaspe in

11   Quebec.   Nemisgog is in that area as well.

12   Q.     We can get the spellings of this off Exhibit 46, or at

13   least the court reporter can, so we won't bother spelling

14   it, but the second one is from the Gaspe area as well?

15   A.     A little bit further south.

16   Q.     Yes?

17   A.     Lsipogtog is Richiboucto River.
18   Q.     Is that the next one?

19   A.     Nabosageneg is the Aboujagane River.           Sigenigtog is

20   that area where I represent.         Epegoitg is Prince Edward

21   Island.   Omamagi is Cape Breton.         And these individuals

22   appear in documentation that have been also recorded by the

23   early missionaries, like by our --

24   Q.     Why is it that people are living in so many different


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

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     4037

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    locations?

2    A.     It was a large family.       There were no particular

3    boundaries stopping anybody from moving freely and living

4    and surviving on the land.

5    Q.     So does that mean one individual lives or moved to all

6    of these communities?

7    A.     Yes.   Usually at a lot of our gatherings, or mawiomi,

8    M-A-W-I-O-M-I, a lot of marriages would be organized in

9    these kind of gatherings so that individuals could decide to

10   marry somebody in Prince Edward Island or Gespogoitg or

11   around the Yarmouth area or Cape Breton or in New Brunswick,

12   and move there where the woman would be from and would be --

13   They would live and be assumed or consumed in that society,

14   in that group.

15   Q.     Did that pattern persist after contact with the

16   Europeans?

17   A.     Well, it persists today.       My grandmother was Prince
18   Edward Island, from Prince Edward Island and she married my

19   grandfather, who was originally from Big Cove but was living

20   up near around Moncton.        And then my dad married my mother

21   from Big Cove and that's where they settled.

22   MR. WILDSMITH     Your Honour, I am not sure how late you would

23   like to go.    I was going to move to Exhibit -- Volume 15 at

24   this point.


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4038

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    THE COURT Probably a good time to stop then till quarter to

2    two.

3    MR. WILDSMITH       Okay.

4    COURT RECESSED (12:40 hr)

5    COURT RESUMED       (14:59 hr)

6    THE COURT Mr. Wildsmith.

7    MR. WILDSMITH       Thank you, Your Honour.

8    Q.      One small matter, Chief Augustine, before we start on

9    your exhibit number 46, the Alguimou ancestry, can you

10   comment on the change of name from the 1400 to the 1500s,

11   the change in the spelling?

12   A.      In the 1400s?

13   Q.      Yes.   We have A-L-G-I-M-A-T-I-N-G and then by the 1500s

14   it's Alguimou, A-L-G-U-I-M-O-U.

15   A.      Alguimou is the actual word, actual name of the family

16   clan.

17   Q.      Which one, the one in the 1500s, Alguimou, would --
18   A.      Alguimou.

19   Q.      Yes.

20   A.      Is to be like a loon, but, generally speaking, the

21   French and the English couldn't discern the name Alguimou.

22   The Mi'kmaq people also played along with giving names or

23   nicknames to somebody.        Algitmating means that that person

24   is being sent around everywhere.


                Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4039

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    Q.     Oh, I see.

2    A.     Playing with the name Alguimou.         They gave him a

3    nickname, Algitmating.       Who's he?     He's our chief or we send

4    him everywhere, so the name would have applied Algitmating,

5    meaning he's being sent everywhere.           Or Alguimou, it's just

6    the different ways that the French and the British recorded

7    the name.      The Mi'kmaq people would have just used Alguimou

8    or Algitmating.

9    Q.     All right.    Going back to our evidence guide then, I

10   think you've finished explaining the concepts of oral

11   tradition and oral history.         Do you recall if there was

12   something more you wanted to say on those subjects?

13   A.     On those documents?

14   Q.     Just -- not on the documents, we'll come to that, but

15   just on what is meant by oral tradition or oral history and

16   any distinction between the two.

17   A.     I think I've said what I had to say on that.
18   Q.     Okay.    So we'll turn now to the first document that

19   you'd like to speak to, which is document number 289 in

20   Volume 15 of Exhibit 17.        Now this seems to be an item that

21   you are the author of?

22   A.     Yes.    This document was prepared for a group of mining

23   interests companies in conjunction with the Federal

24   Government of Canada through the Natural Resources.                 And


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4040

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    they wanted to have a perspective about traditional

2    knowledge, how they can treat traditional knowledge in their

3    environmental impact assessment studies which were very

4    important for mining and resource extraction companies to

5    have consideration for.

6           And so I was contacted by Natural Resources and asked

7    to put together the element on traditional knowledge, a

8    definition and belonging to the land, approaches to how to

9    preserve traditional ways and that was it.

10   Q.     Okay.   In the definition that appears there on the

11   first page then?

12   A.     On the first page after the title, it says "traditional

13   knowledge," and it has an illustration of an aboriginal

14   person holding a young boy.         The next page to that it says,

15   "traditional knowledge, a definition."            Here I would just

16   like to begin with the second paragraph --

17   THE COURT Excuse me, what does is it that we're --
18   MR. WILDSMITH     That's 289.

19   THE COURT 89, thank you.

20   MR. WILDSMITH     289.

21   THE COURT Thank you.

22   MR. WILDSMITH     Perhaps I could stop you just before you do

23   get to that, Chief Augustine.         I see you have in front of

24   you a notebook.


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

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     4041

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    A.      Yes.

2    Q.      Could you explain what that is and what the information

3    is that's in that notebook?

4    A.      Well, in this notebook most of the documentation that I

5    have an opportunity to look through I've noted page numbers

6    and places where it's important for me to refresh my memory,

7    to focus on and to help me explain my perspective and

8    opinion on these.

9    Q.      Okay.   So that's information that you prepared and

10   recorded yourself in that notebook?

11   A.      Yes.

12   Q.      To aid in refreshing your memory and assisting you in

13   working through the documents?

14   A.      Yes.

15   MR. WILDSMITH      Your Honour, is it okay if he makes use of

16   that?

17   THE COURT That's fine.        Yes, that's fine.
18   A.      It's all handwritten notes.        In the first paragraph, it

19   just explains who I am and the context of how story-telling

20   came into my purview.        In the next paragraph,

21                            Traditional knowledge (is based) is used

22                      within the context of aboriginal social

23                      values and philosophies, mainly, that the

24                      earth and (everything) every being, animal,


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                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4042

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1                    plant and rock upon it is sacred and should

2                    be treated with respect.

3                          On the other hand, aboriginal

4                    spirituality is a belief system based on

5                    creation stories, dreams, and visions and

6                    gives meaning to the knowledge and principles

7                    of a way of life, but even though it is part

8                    of every activity of daily life for

9                    traditional people, it does not in itself

10                   constitute traditional knowledge, rather, a

11                   spirituality conveys an interrelationship

12                   (with all things) that all things are

13                   connected and must be considered within that

14                   context.     This holistic approach serves to

15                   maintain harmony and balance between

16                   individuals and the environment.

17                         Traditional knowledge cannot be
18                   standardized due to the vast diversity of

19                   aboriginal cultures and because no two

20                   landscapes or ecosystems are the same.            It

21                   represents the culture of a community where

22                   elders act as a library of knowledge.

23                         Traditional environmental knowledge can

24                   be used wisely in environmental assessment on


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     4043

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1                    aboriginal traditional territories.               It may

2                    include knowledge of natural cycles of land,

3                    water and winds, wildlife patterns and

4                    previous land use activities.

5    And then it goes on to say that

6                          Consideration of traditional knowledge

7                    (in the last paragraph) recently has been

8                    included as a requirement in environmental

9                    review guidelines for mining projects in

10                   Canada.    (And this is in context to this

11                   piece of literature.)        However, it has been

12                   taken into account in some resource projects

13                   for many years as indigenous knowledge or

14                   local knowledge.       Despite this, much of the

15                   traditional knowledge used by mining

16                   companies does not exist in written form.

17                         Clearly, understanding and using
18                   traditional knowledge requires a commitment

19                   to long-term relationships, respect for

20                   aboriginal culture and a sustained effort to

21                   listen and to share information.

22   And on the next page, the notion about belonging to the

23   land,

24                         The elders teach that Mother Earth is


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                       Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4044

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1                      sacred, that you live with the land and that

2                      you share Mother Earth with all other living

3                      entities, animal life, plant life, mineral

4                      life and so on.       Aboriginal people have lived

5                      in harmony with the land and consider

6                      themselves as belonging to the land rather

7                      than owners of the land.

8                             Traditional elders tell diverse creation

9                      stories according to their tribal group that

10                     explain the connection between their people

11                     and the land on which they live.

12   Q.     Is that information that you provided for this

13   publication?

14   A.     Yes, I did.

15   Q.     And does that information apply with respect to the

16   Mi'kmaq in present day Nova Scotia?

17   A.     Yes, it does.
18   Q.     Okay.   And is traditional knowledge part of then what

19   you are bringing to the Court in your subsequent testimony?

20   A.     Yes, it is.

21   Q.     Okay.   And did you have recourse to, it says in here,

22   "elders as the libraries of knowledge," in order to get the

23   information that you were going to convey to the Court?

24   A.     Yes.


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                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4045

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    Q.     Okay.     Other things in this document?

2    A.     No.

3    Q.     All right.      Let's turn to 294 which makes reference to

4    an article by Julie Cruickshank.

5    A.     Yes.

6    Q.     Appeared in The Canadian Historical Review in 1994

7    called Oral Tradition and Oral History reviewing some

8    issues.      What use would you like to make of this document?

9    A.     I want to be able to offer some written accounts about

10   identifying and explaining the difference between oral

11   tradition and oral history by an anthropologist who has

12   spent a lot of time doing research among aboriginal

13   communities collecting traditional knowledge and recording

14   stories.

15   Q.     She didn't do her work with the Mi'kmaq, did she?

16   A.     No.    Julie Cruickshank's work was basically among the

17   Denys people in the Northwest Territories or the western
18   part of Northwest Territories, mostly in the Yukon

19   Territories from Old Crow all the way down to [Tegish?].

20   Q.     The information then that you were going to point us to

21   in this document, is it opinions that you agree with and

22   share?

23   A.     I agree with some elements of what she is wanting to

24   share here.       And so I'm going to offer some opinions and go


                  Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                            Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4046

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    through parts of her paper here.

2    Q.     Okay.   Then perhaps you could make clear in your

3    testimony which parts you do not agree with.

4    A.     Yes.    Julie Cruickshank sets out in this paper an

5    explanation of oral tradition and oral history by reviewing

6    some contemporary issues from various perspectives.                 She

7    outlines that there seems to have been some shift going

8    along, happening among anthropologists, folklorist in terms

9    of their evaluation of the importance and -- of oral

10   tradition and oral history.

11          And she wants to, in her article, summarize these

12   elements in terms of how oral tradition is used in a

13   contemporary context in cross-cultural education.               And she

14   also wants to explore whether there is an overview that

15   could provide some ethnographic instruction for people

16   today.

17          And on page 404, which would be on the next page, in
18   halfway she looks at the historical approach to analysis of

19   oral tradition.     And in this, the first paragraph she says

20   that

21                           The terms 'oral tradition' and 'oral

22                      history' remain ambiguous because their

23                      definitions shift in popular usage.

24                      Sometimes the term 'oral tradition'


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                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4047

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1                      identifies a body of material retained from

2                      the past.     Other times we use it to talk

3                      about a process by which information is

4                      transmitted from one generation to the next.

5                            'Oral history' is more a specialized

6                      term usually referring to a research method

7                      where a sound recording is made of an

8                      interview about first-hand experience

9                      occurring during the lifetime of an eye

10                     witness.

11   And in this context, I would tend to say I agree in terms of

12   it being a methodological approach, but in terms of sound

13   recording, that -- it includes sound recording, but it also

14   should include a visual recording as well as a written

15   recording of accounts in --

16          If a historian or a researcher was interviewing an

17   elder or somebody and writing down this information, I do
18   believe that that information forms a basis of a part of an

19   oral history conveyed by the informant at the time.

20   Q.     Do we have examples in the evidence books here of that

21   form of oral history?

22   A.     Yes, the work that has been done by Silas Rand, Francis

23   Ganong, by other recorders of history, interviewed elders

24   about information concerning place, nomenclature in Nova


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4048

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    Scotia and in New Brunswick and so on.

2    Q.     If I could just show you Volume 1 of Exhibit 17 and

3    direct your attention to the material that would be

4    identified in here on page 39, from there forward, are there

5    other examples in there besides, I believe you mentioned,

6    Rand and Ganong of --

7    A.     The information that I have used, yeah, is gleaned from

8    that context.

9    Q.     I mean, people who have recorded oral history at some

10   point in the past.

11   A.     Yes.   William F. Ganong, William Francis Ganong, who is

12   a natural scientist.       He described the natural evolution of

13   the geography of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and Prince

14   Edward Island and he relied on Mi'kmaq and Maliseet and

15   Passamaquoddy elders providing information about that.

16   Q.     What about Item 301?

17   A.     Bernard Hoffman's doctoral dissertation involved
18   research, interviewing Mi'kmaq people in mostly around New

19   Brunswick and more predominantly in Burnt Church, but did a

20   lot of research in relation to -- Most of the elders that he

21   interviewed were from Burnt Church.           Diamond Jenness, he has

22   visited Atlantic Canada as well.          Laura Lacey.      Laurie Lacey

23   interviewed Mi'kmaq elders.

24   Q.     Did you mention Pacifique.


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     4049

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    A.     Pacifique.   Father Pierre Pacifique.          He edited a

2    newspaper that was published from Restigouche, New

3    Brunswick.    It was written totally in the Mi'kmaq language

4    with a little interspersed with some French.             And it was

5    published for about 30 years out of Restigouche.              And he was

6    in touch with a lot of the Mi'kmaq communities, and he

7    provided service and interviewed a lot of Mi'kmaq people to

8    provide that information.        And, in his article, "Le Pays des

9    Mi'kmak," he includes a lot of that documentation.

10   Q.     What about Speck?

11   A.     Frank Speck, he was an anthropologist.            He was out of

12   the University of Pennsylvania and he worked out of the

13   university museum there.        He travelled throughout the

14   Maritime region, in Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, New

15   Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island, and he also did some

16   major work in Montagnais Territory among the Innu Nation

17   there.   And he collected information from elders and
18   documented it and provided it to the museum.

19   Q.     Wilson Wallace?

20   A.     Wilson Wallace was another anthropologist.            He, along

21   with his wife, developed a history book as well as on his

22   own.   He wrote an article for the American Anthropologists

23   called "Medicines Used by the Mi'kmaq Indians," and as a

24   result of his visits to the Mi'kmaq communities to ascertain


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1    documented material on medicines, the use of medicines.

2    Q.     And do you know Ruth Whitehead?

3    A.     Ruth Whitehead also worked at the museum, Nova Scotia

4    Museum and she is also an anthropologist who specialized in

5    Mi'kmaq history and culture and she's done a lot of

6    publications, writing, and interviewing elders and so on.

7    Q.     Are these all sources that you have and use in your

8    work at the Museum of Civilization?

9    A.     Yes.

10   Q.     Okay.   So, I'm sorry, we got a little digression from

11   page 404 here in Document 294.

12   A.     Again, going down as far as page 408, "Contemporary

13   Approaches to Analysis of Oral tradition."               In the second

14   paragraph, she says:

15                           Broadly speaking, oral tradition, like

16                     history of anthropology, can be viewed as a

17                     coherent open-ended system for constructing
18                     and transmitting knowledge.            Ideas about what

19                     constitutes legitimate evidence may differ in

20                     oral tradition in scholarly investigation and

21                     the explanations are certainly framed

22                     differently.      They cannot be compared easily

23                     nor can their accuracy or truth value

24                     necessarily be evaluated in positive terms.


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1                               From this perspective, scholarly papers

2                         can be understood as another form of

3                         narrative structure by the language of the

4                         academic discourse.

5    And I agree with her statement in this paragraph.

6    Q.     What do you understand it to mean to say that it is a

7    "coherent open-ended system" in the second line?

8    A.     In that it has a certain structure in the way the

9    information is offered or delivered.              Structure according to

10   that cultural -- that culture's context of structure.

11   Q.     What do you make by "open-ended"?

12   A.     Open-ended meaning that it incorporated and involves

13   different elements, like social, political, religious,

14   economic elements, as well as spiritual and supernatural.

15   Q.     Okay.     Are there things in this article?

16   A.     No.    There's four cultural contexts that she wants to

17   analyze in her approach and they're more perspectives from
18   an anthropologists who studied oral tradition.                 She also

19   looks at a prospectus from a historian who studied oral

20   tradition and an ethno-historian who has studied the oral

21   tradition, as well as a court of law in relation to a court

22   case involving indigenous knowledge being offered as part of

23   evidence.

24          And she indicates that the stories are based on


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1    families to places, events, and sites, and these have some

2    context and relevance to the information that is offered.

3           In the first case, she talks about [Renatto Resaldo?]

4    who did an ethnographic study of the [Elongat?] people in

5    the Philippines during the 1970s.          He was able to try to

6    obtain some understanding of their meaning of their oral

7    traditions.

8           In that context [Resaldo?] looked at the information

9    that the people had offered in the oral context and it

10   seemed to be based on events that occurred and identifying

11   certain geographic locations.         In that context, there was

12   some meaning that could be obtained from that relationship

13   between people in their environment and the places that they

14   named on that environment.

15   Q.     You mean in the oral tradition, there were locations or

16   place names?

17   A.     Yes.
18   Q.     Included in the oral tradition.

19   A.     In terms of understanding those names in that context.

20    As for the historian, Judith Binney, who studied the Maori

21   in New Zealand, she was also looking at the issues about

22   Maori histories and what do they mean in terms of their

23   relationship with the land, with each other, and so on, and

24   that she was able to make some recognition of the


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1    relationships that were involved, the information that was

2    offered by the Maori in terms of their dances and songs and

3    music.

4           And then she looked at Ethno-historian Cohen, who on

5    page 411.

6    Q.     411, yes.

7    A.     In the third full paragraph, she said -- or he says:

8                               If we look at how oral tradition is used

9                       in practice, we come to see that for the

10                      majority of the people, it is not a set of

11                      formal texts.     It is a living, vital part of

12                      life.    Knowledge of the past is not the dead

13                      and dying survivals of a past oral culture

14                      handed down through narrow conduits from

15                      generation to generation but is related to

16                      the critical intelligence and active

17                      deployment of knowledge.        Furthermore, it is
18                      inclusive rather than exclusive.

19                              People will always acknowledge that some

20                      elders know or remember more than others,

21                      just as they will acknowledge that written

22                      versions of oral accounts are valuable but

23                      neither authoritative elders nor written

24                      texts close off the discussion and


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1                       circulation of historical knowledge in the

2                       communities.

3    Q.      What does that mean for us?

4    A.      He is saying here that the oral tradition and the

5    written elements must be considered together in order to

6    glean from it valuable information and that one cannot

7    discount the other.

8            In the fourth example about the courts, there is, I

9    guess, an attempt to codify oral traditions and songs and

10   dance and narratives and, in this context, the writer

11   explains the example of the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en.

12   Q.      They were the people that were involved in the Dogamot*

13   case?

14   A.      Yes, on page 412, if I can just make a summary here.

15                            The Gitksan Wet'suwet'en shared their

16                      relationship to the land on their own terms

17                      by using oral tradition in that they were
18                      stating that they were an organized society

19                      before contact.       They had house clan systems

20                      in place prior to contact and after contact

21                      and they had linkages to the past and to the

22                      present as demonstrated in their totem poles

23                      and oral tradition was their statement to

24                      their title to the land.


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1    In two contexts, the Gitksan offered their stories, which

2    are called adaawk, A-D-A-A-W-K, and it's the stories that

3    are integral to their culture and traditions and their

4    ceremonies and dances.       The    Wet'suwet'en K-U-N-G-A-X, was

5    their songs and dances and ceremonies that were attached to

6    the stories that the Gitksan were relating.

7    Q.     You might as well spell those other two aboriginal

8    names and I will just do it.         G-I-T-K-S-A-N for the Gitksan,

9    and W-E-T-apostrophe-S-U-W-E-T-apostrophe-E-N for the

10   Wet'suwet'en.

11   A.     And down on page 14, again in the third paragraph, in

12   the second sentence on the second line, it says:

13                           Oral tradition anchors history to place

14                     but it also challenges our notion of what

15                     place actually is.       We frequently view place

16                     simply as a location, a setting or stage

17                     where people do things.
18                           Indigenous traditions make place central

19                     to an understanding of the part and map

20                     events along the mountains, trails and rivers

21                     connecting territories.

22                           Oral tradition also complicates our

23                     definition of what constitutes an event.          We

24                     usually think of an event as a discrete,


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1                      apparently bounded incident and view stories

2                      as illustrations that may supplement our

3                      understanding of such events but our

4                      definitions reflect our own stories and

5                      events defined by a historian may appear

6                      epiphenomenal (I don't know if you want me to

7                      spell that) indigenous accounts that invoke a

8                      very different kind of sequence of causality.

9    Again, the notion of place as being very important in that

10   the land and families are a part of that notion of place.

11          It is important in this context of Mi'kmaq that our

12   stories and oral traditions are also attached to the land

13   and places and events that took place over the land.

14   Q.     Are there a lot of places in Nova Scotia which have

15   Mi'kmaq names?

16   A.     Yes, there are very -- In fact, most of Nova Scotia and

17   -- well, all of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and Prince
18   Edward Island all have Mi'kmagy.          We have names for the

19   rivers and shores and forests and mountain areas and valleys

20   in our language.      Either they are descriptive names of the

21   area, just saying it's a nice, shiny river or it's a nice

22   high hill.

23          And there is a lot of occurrence of same names in Nova

24   Scotia and in New Brunswick and in Prince Edward Island.


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    Like, for instance, Tracadie.         Tracadie is a Mi'kmaq name

2    and it means Tlakatimk.        T-L-A-K-A-T-I-M-K.        Tlakatimk is

3    where you sit down and play games.           And so the place where

4    you sit down and play games is always identified where they

5    may have gathered together for certain ceremonies and part

6    of that gathering is to spend time playing games of memory

7    and dexterity and endurance, because some of these games

8    would last two or three days at a time.

9    Q.     How old would those words be, the Mi'kmaq words for the

10   places?

11   A.     They would be precontact names, and sometimes contact

12   names where they may have met Europeans and wanted to play

13   games with them as well.

14   Q.     That was on page 413, I believe, that you were reading.

15   A.     Yes.    And so, in that context, I think the oral

16   tradition and oral history has been fully outlined by Julie

17   Chruikshank in terms of how these concepts have been used by
18   anthropologists, by historians, by ethno-historians, as well

19   as by the courts, and she offers an opinion which states

20   that there is, yes, an ethnographic lesson that we can

21   obtain from this and there is a method that we can obtain

22   information from oral tradition and oral history, as well as

23   the written documentation.        And I agree with her on that.

24   Q.     Okay.   And do you find that applicable to the Mi'kmaq


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1    in Nova Scotia?

2    A.     Yes.

3    Q.     All right.    I would like to move to the Wolfe article

4    in volume 17, 326.

5    A.     The Wolfe article, I make reference to this because

6    Alexander Wolfe was a descendant of a very strong family

7    among the [Sotoanishnanee?] people in Saskatchewan and, like

8    myself, he undertook to study his own culture's history,

9    their stories, their oral tradition, and he has moved

10   forward with this perspective and tried to capture some of

11   these stories in a written context.           He has offered some

12   opinions in his work by publishing a book entitled, "Earth

13   Elder Stories - The Pinayzitt Path."            The word Pinayzitt is

14   spelled P-I-N-A-Y-Z-I-T-T.

15   Q.     Do you know what that means or what that is a reference

16   to?

17   A.     The people.
18   Q.     Path of the people?

19   A.     Yes.   So in the preface, Harvey Knight, who is a well

20   known anthropologist, who works in the University of

21   Minnesota, I believe, offered to write the preface to this

22   article and in the preface he comments on Wolfe's work on

23   Roman numeral 8, viii.        On the second paragraph, Harvey

24   Knight says:


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1                          Wolfe's work is significant in that it

2                    is a written presentation of authentic Indian

3                    history.     His book contains many of the

4                    important elements of the traditional Indian

5                    approach to history.        He presents historical

6                    accounts in narrative form interwoven with

7                    the significant events, personalities and

8                    notable places, such as the ancestral

9                    homeland and sacred pilgrimage site of his

10                   people.

11                         Historiographic elements, such as the

12                   genealogy and maps are presented to support

13                   these accounts and to serve other important

14                   traditional functions as well.           A clan's

15                   genealogy was essential for determining the

16                   procreation of healthy offspring and thereby

17                   ensuring their survival.
18                         Geographic knowledge of plains, lakes,

19                   rivers and mountain ranges was crucial to

20                   their survival because it was on these vast

21                   areas that they roamed, hunted, and gathered

22                   food, evading and confronting their

23                   traditional enemies.

24   Again, in ix, on the next page, number 9, Harvey Knight


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    makes a reference to the correct and respectful approach to

2    traditional -- to oral traditions which Wolfe recommends in

3    his introduction.    It is important to reiterate his points

4    briefly, and he says:

5                          First, to gain a deeper understanding of

6                    the history and culture through the stories

7                    of its people, one must first learn the

8                    language of the family, tribe, or nation to

9                    which the stories belong.         Language and

10                   culture are inextricably interwoven and

11                   interdependent.

12                         Second, in approaching oral traditions,

13                   one must become aware of the principles and

14                   practices that govern those traditions, just

15                   as western literary traditions have their

16                   modes and devices in history its established

17                   methodologies, Indian oral traditions have
18                   rules and principles that are distinct and

19                   valid in their own right.

20                         Third, it should be recognized that the

21                   practice and principles of oral traditions

22                   vary from band to band and nation to nation.

23                    Their form and content is determined by

24                   language and environment.


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1                            Finally, anyone seriously undertaking

2                      the study of Indian oral tradition should be

3                      prepared to respect and preserve these

4                      traditions in their pure form.           This can only

5                      be done if the written form is manipulated to

6                      conform to the rules, language, and style of

7                      Indian oral traditions.         But the ultimate

8                      goal should be to achieve a balance, allowing

9                      Indian oral and written traditions to coexist

10                     side by side without one diminishing the

11                     importance of the other.

12   And I think this is an important element that needs to be

13   firmly put forward in analyzing and studying oral

14   traditions.

15   Q.     But what do you get then from the reference to "oral

16   and written traditions side by side not diminishing one from

17   the other"?
18   A.     That information can be obtained from both sources in

19   order to round out a fuller vision of the occasion that may

20   have occurred at some point in time in the history of the

21   aboriginal people.

22   Q.     Okay, thank you.     Anything further?

23   A.     Furthermore, in the introduction that was written by

24   Mr. Wolfe himself, he, on page 13, he on the second full


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    paragraph, he says:

2                          Grandfathers realize that a time was

3                    coming when what they had to say would be

4                    important to the well being and stability of

5                    their descendants yet to come. From

6                    predictions made from before their time, they

7                    knew that in the future there would be a need

8                    for the [Inishnabay?] to know of their

9                    descendency and history, their language and

10                   their culture.      Without this, future

11                   descendants would become lost and would be in

12                   confusion.

13   Again, in the third paragraph:

14                         These stories show why certain customs

15                   are observed in a certain manner as

16                   prescribed by their cultural and spiritual

17                   tradition.     In some of the stories, there is
18                   humour.

19                         Another type of story told by

20                   grandfathers and grandmothers to convey a

21                   lesson in life employ a deceiving legendary

22                   character named [Nannapooshow?] who was able

23                   to communicate with all creation.            He

24                   sometimes ended up a loser.            Other times, he


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1                      did some good things and the way in which he

2                      did them was humorous.

3                            The [Nannapooshow?] stories, the

4                      grandfathers, said were to be told during the

5                      winter season.      The stories relating to the

6                      family and the historical background of the

7                      [Inishnabay?] could be told at any season.

8    A lot of these stories were about survival, about the

9    buffalo, about the people and their relationship with the

10   buffalo and how they survived with the help of the buffalo

11   in their culture because the buffalo provided their food,

12   clothing, and shelter and so on, as in on page 17.

13   MR. CLARKE        If I might just interject, Your Honour.

14   Perhaps I am missing the relevance of this.              This is dealing

15   with western Canada, I believe, and all we have here at tab

16   326 is an introduction. I don't think we have the main

17   articles that Mr. Wolfe wrote.          All we have is the
18   introduction to what appears to be a book of some sort and

19   Chief Augustine is referring to the preface and the

20   introduction.

21          Is there a point other than just reading what it's for?

22    I mean, maybe there's something here that I'm missing but,

23   again, there is no book here.         It's just the introduction to

24   some article or book written by Mr. Wolfe.               Again, it's


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    dealing with western Canada and unless there is a direct

2    relationship between this and the oral tradition or oral

3    history of the Mi'kmaq, or eastern natives in eastern

4    Canada, I can't see the relevance of it.

5    MR. WILDSMITH   We will be bringing it back around to the

6    relevance.   I think until Chief Augustine has concluded,

7    that would be the appropriate time to ask, well, what is the

8    connection of this to the balance of his testimony.

9    THE COURT Unless I missed the point, this is talking as the

10   other parts of the evidence I've heard this afternoon, or

11   most of it, about the significance, uses, ways of

12   determining and all that, oral traditions, and I take it

13   that it's being offered as a general thing.

14   MR. WILDSMITH   Exactly, that the same kind of thing happens

15   in the west happens here.

16   THE COURT That's what I understood was being said.

17   MR. WILDSMITH   Yes.
18   THE COURT I don't see any problem with that evidence.

19   MR. WILDSMITH   All right.

20   THE COURT Obviously, if it gets to the specifics, it's of no

21   direct consequence to anything we're dealing with here,

22   which doesn't mean that the generalities aren't of some

23   significance.

24   MR. WILDSMITH   No buffalo here.


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    THE COURT That I've seen.        Except in the Saint John Zoo,

2    once, I think.

3    CHIEF AUGUSTINE           The significance of the preface and the

4    introduction is how Mr. Wolfe was according respect and

5    identifying an approach that he used that was very important

6    in conveying the history and traditions of his culture, his

7    own people, and how he went about to record this information

8    in the context that this information would be discernable to

9    the general public.

10          In this way, Harvey Knight provides a preface by

11   commenting on Alexander Wolfe's approach to this and, in the

12   same context, in a general context, I would say the same

13   thing applies in my own experience in analyzing my own

14   culture and traditions to convey it in a discernable way to

15   the general public in an English language rather than in the

16   Mi'kmaq language.      That is all I have to say on this article

17   now.
18   MR. WILDSMITH     Okay.    And I take it that this is an

19   introduction and a preface to a larger book that contains

20   these earth stories.

21   A.     Yes, the larger book contains the actual stories that

22   his grandfather told him about raiding certain communities,

23   about moving about on the plains in certain areas in

24   Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, all the way down even into the


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    United States.

2    Q.     So the stories themselves are set in a different place

3    in Canada and no direct pertinence to Nova Scotia?

4    A.     They have no pertinence to Nova Scotia.

5    Q.     So that's what you wanted to say about the Wolfe

6    introduction?

7    A.     It's the approach and methodology of treating oral

8    tradition.

9    Q.     Okay, and with that introduction, then, would you like

10   to turn to the Creation Story?

11   A.     Yes.

12   Q.     In that regard and without disturbing the flow of your

13   story, there is a reference here to two items from volume

14   15, 287 and 288.       You have volume 15 still up there, I

15   believe?

16   A.     I lost my guide.      I don't know what happens to it.          The

17   reference to the Creation Story is in 15-287.               It is an
18   article that was published after I made a presentation to

19   the Canadian Association of Conservation of Cultural

20   Property in Whitehorse in the Yukon.            And it is the written

21   presentation the people, the general public that was in

22   attendance who are mostly people that worked in the museums

23   as conservators that had to handle certain objects belonging

24   to aboriginal people and they wanted to determine which


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    objects were sacred.       And in order to put the objects in a

2    context, I related the creation story which explains the

3    significance of the pipe ceremony, the tobacco, the sweet

4    grass, the pipe bags and --

5    Q.     Okay.

6    A.     -- all of what is involved in the spiritual context of

7    the creation story.

8    Q.     And, similarly, there's an account of the creation

9    story in the next article, is there?

10   A.     In the next article, I wrote for The Turtle Quarterly.

11    It was a special edition focusing on the survival of

12   indigenous cultures in North America.           And I wrote about a

13   Mi'kmaq perspective on the history of Big Cove and included

14   the creation story as a starting point to our story and then

15   went on to talk about historical events that took place in

16   our community.

17   Q.     So the creation story is a creation story that applies
18   to Big Cove, according to your piece under Tab 288.                 Does

19   the creation story have application to the Mi'kmaq in

20   present day Nova Scotia?

21   A.     Yes.    Because it explains the -- geographically the

22   placement of people on Mi'kmagy.          Like the Seven Districts

23   of the Mi'kmaq Grand Council are explained in the creation

24   story.   The ceremonies that we do during our Grand Council


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    meetings are explained as well in the creation story.                 It

2    also explains the interconnectiveness and the relationship

3    between Mi'kmaq people and their land, the role of the

4    mawiomis, the role of animals, birds, plants and fish and

5    the whole cultural makeup of the Mi'kmaq people identifying

6    themselves with their clothing and the techniques they used

7    to build canoes and snowshoes and toboggans and wigwams and

8    their medicines, the kind of foods they eat and the clothes

9    they wear.

10   Q.     Okay.   Without further ado then, perhaps we should move

11   to that, bearing in mind Exhibit 45 that has the list of

12   names and spellings on them so we don't need to break, I

13   think, the flow of your story by spelling the names that are

14   already on Exhibit 45.

15   A.     Yes, if I may have my bundle.

16   Q.     You've just taken an item out of your knapsack.               Would

17   you just explain what it is and give a little description
18   for the record?

19   A.     The bundle that I have taken out contains certain

20   sacred objects that are integral to our ceremonies in our

21   culture, in the Mi'kmaq culture, in the Mi'kmaq Grand

22   Council.    The bundle has been part of our family, the

23   Aguimou family, and it's been passed down through

24   generations.      And it contains basically ceremonial objects


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    and story -- the creation story that I am going to share is

2    attached to the bundle and explains the contents of the

3    bundle.   And --

4    Q.     What's the bundle made out of?

5    A.     The bundle is made out of duffle cloth, deer hide and

6    glass beads sewn with cloth thread or cotton thread and

7    sinew.    Some of it is cloth ribbons, red, white and black,

8    which are the traditional colours for the four sacred

9    directions in the Mi'kmaq world.          And it's basically made

10   out of material from modern day context in society.

11   Q.     The duffle cloth you refer to, it looks like a bright

12   red colour.

13   A.     It is red, yes.

14   Q.     It is red.   Any significance to the colour?

15   A.     Red is a colour signifying the sacredness of our

16   knowledge and traditions.        It also represents our blood as

17   well as the earth in our cosmology as well as the wisdom and
18   knowledge of our elders.

19   Q.     Proceed.

20   A.     In the context of the creation story being passed down,

21   the elders explain the significance and the meaning of our

22   pipe ceremonies as well as the sweet grass ceremony, the

23   tobacco-offering ceremony and the sweat lodge as well as the

24   significance of and the meaning of eagle feathers.                  And the


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                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4070

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    bundle itself contains all these sacred elements.                  It has

2    elements of rocks, stone, eagle feather, sweet grass, the

3    sacred pipe, tobacco, and a wampum belt.

4    Q.     What's the pipe made out of?

5    A.     The pipe is made out of stone and wood and it's

6    decorated as well.         It's carved.

7           If I may start with the creation story, I would just

8    like to sing one song, one line of a song to honour the

9    knowledge of our ancestors who passed down this information

10   to us, and it's part of having to sing this song in order

11   for me to continue with the story.              [Witness sings song in

12   Mi'kmaq.]

13          That is a song inviting the spirits to come and gather

14   and watch over us and preside over and guide me in terms of

15   my deliberation of my words in -- about my culture and

16   traditions.

17   Q.     I don't suppose we'll find that written down anywhere.
18   A.     No.    The elders have always taught our people that the

19   significance and the meaning of the number seven is very

20   important because there are seven levels of creation.                  The

21   beginning element, the first part is Geezoolgh, I don't

22   think I need to spell that out.

23   Q.     No, it's on Exhibit 45.

24   A.     And Geezoolgh is a concept more or less of creation


                  Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                            Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4071

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    because the word in itself means "you have been made" in our

2    Mi'kmaq language.       If we tell somebody Geezoolgh means you

3    live, you exist.       There is no concept of an entity or a

4    human configuration maybe looking down above the clouds

5    below us.     It has no gender.       It has not even a human

6    context to it.      Geezoolgh was borrowed by the French

7    missionaries to identify the creator or God in the French

8    Catholic context.

9           But in our context, we say "Geezoolgh" is you have been

10   created so once you become aware of your ears and your eyes

11   and your nose and your mouth, between your mind and your

12   heart, you are aware of your world, well, your creation has

13   begun.    And once it's stopped, well, your creation is

14   remembered by your family and friends.             And so it is in the

15   context of that that we consider creation.                So that's the

16   first level.      It's everything was made.

17          And the next level is the Sun, which we call Nisgam,
18   and Nisgamich is the term we use for grandfather, N-I-S-G-A-

19   M-I-C-H.    Grandfather Sun casts its shadow on us, so we

20   always refer to Nisgam as the shadow-giver.                It gives us our

21   shadow.    And everything that is on the surface of the world

22   which has a shadow and the shadow moves has spirit, if I may

23   borrow the English context of spirit.            But part of that

24   context of spirit for us is our physical appearance, our


                Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4072

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    heart, our beating heart and our beating lungs that generate

2    air and our blood through our system.            Our blood flows

3    through our veins.       We are connected to our shadows by our

4    feet.    And so we are also attached to the earth by our

5    blood.    And so our blood is connected to our ancestors who

6    have gone on to the other world, the spirit world.                   So

7    Grandfather is a very important element in our world view.

8            The second element to be created is the Earth,

9    Oositgamoo.     It's made out of two words, "wesgit" means the

10   surface of and "gamoo"        is to stand upon.        So when you

11   combine the two words together it's a surface of area upon

12   which we stand and share with all living entities, whether

13   it's the birds, plants, trees or fish or animals.                And so

14   all of these we share as equals.

15           And upon the surface of the world or earth,

16   Oopsitgamoo, the life-giver, the spirit-giver and the

17   sustainer of life, which is Geezoolgh and Nisgam and Mother
18   Earth, caused a bolt of lightning to hit the surface of the

19   earth to shape a person out of the elements of the earth,

20   out of the sand, out of the rocks, out of the wood and grass

21   and whatever else there is on the surface of Mother Earth

22   was come to together, was brought together by that bolt of

23   lightning and it made a shape of a human.

24           The head was in the direction of the rising sun towards


                Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4073

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    the east. Its feet were in the direction of the setting sun

2    and its -- both of his hands were outstretched, one to the

3    north and one to the south.         This person we call

4    Geululesgop, "the first one who spoke," which was later

5    given the name Glooscap, was given its creation.              And it was

6    not until the passing of one winter that a second bolt of

7    lightning hit the same spot where Glooscap lay.

8           And this time he was given his toes and his fingers and

9    all his other extremities and our elders teach us that he

10   was also given seven sacred parts to his head.              And he was

11   given two ears to listen to his world from the goodness of

12   his heart because our elders tell us that when we become

13   formed as a new life, the first thing we hear is our

14   mother's heart and that heartbeat is always expressed in the

15   use of the hand drums in our culture.           The drum beat is our

16   -- the beat of our mother.

17          The second two elements of creation on Glooscap's head
18   is two eyes that he could see his world around him to

19   observe the changing elements of its surface.              And so he had

20   to look at the world around him from the goodness of his

21   heart.

22          The sixth -- the third element are two holes in his

23   nose, the creation of his nose provided Glooscap to be able

24   to breath in the air that he needed to live.             He also was


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4074

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    able to sense, to smell his place and everybody's place

2    around him, so that he would be able to sense from the

3    goodness of his heart and understand his world around him.

4           And, last, his mouth, and from the mouth, our elders

5    tell us, we take in the air, we take in the water that is

6    shared for everybody.       We take in medicine to help our

7    bodies to be in a healthful way and food to sustain

8    ourselves to live for a long time.

9           And the last to come out of the mouth is words so that

10   our elders tell us if we learn to listen, to look at one,

11   excuse me, to look at one another and sense each other's

12   place and share our foods and our medicines, we will be able

13   to live comfortably and that our words will come out in a

14   way that is respectful to one another.

15          And so it is in this way the elders tell us that

16   Glooscap was given these seven sacred parts to his head.

17   Also Glooscap was still stuck to the surface of Mother
18   Earth.   He was to look and observe the changing faces of

19   Mother Earth, the trees and the birds, changing, the animals

20   changing, fish also changing, blanket of snow arriving on

21   Mother Earth to protect her and so on.            And so he was stuck

22   for the passing of one winter on the surface of the earth

23   until Grandfather Sun came back to visit longer each day,

24   the snows began to melt and the ice melted and the leaves


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4075

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    began to form and the birds came back and so on.

2           Also, the thunder spirits returned to the area where

3    Glooscap lay and the third bolt of lightning hit where

4    Glooscap was laying and he stood up.           And our elders tell us

5    that the concept of the cradle board in our society is very

6    important and is reflective of the way that Glooscap was

7    stuck to Mother Earth because he had to observe the changing

8    face and he had to understand the world around him before he

9    had the freedom to travel around.

10   Q.     That was a cradle board?

11   A.     The cradle board.

12   Q.     What's that?

13   A.     It's a piece of board that is usually designed and in

14   such a way that a young baby could be strapped to that board

15   with a deer or moose hide and with blankets of fur.                 And the

16   child would be secure in this cradle board with its hands

17   tied and there's a protuberance around the head of the child
18   where if the cradle board were to fall down, the child would

19   not hurt itself.      And --

20   Q.     What are the boards made out of?

21   A.     The board was made out of pine or spruce or it could be

22   made out of hardwood or cedar.          And it was designed in such

23   a way to hold a baby upright and that the mother could carry

24   it on her shoulders and travel wherever she did to carry --


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4076

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    to collect medicine or make food or make a fire or build a

2    shelter.    The child observed those things because the mother

3    carried it and either hung it on a tree or put it in a

4    wigwam where the family lived.

5           So this concept of the egtigenakin in our language,

6    E-G-T-I-G-E-N-A-K-I-N, meaning "my other right hand," this

7    concept is embodied in the Glooscap's attachment to the

8    Earth is his attachment to his mother and in the same way

9    this other right hand, which is the cradle board, is

10   attached to the mother, and in that way the child learns to

11   take food in its mouth and observe its world around it.

12          And eventually the hands are free and then the body is

13   free and the child is ready to walk about realizing that

14   fire is hot, a knife is sharp and certain things are already

15   realizable for the child.         So in this context, Glooscap had

16   to be knowledgeable of those elements of Mother Earth before

17   he was given his freedom.
18          So when the third bolt of lightning hit where he was

19   laying, he stood up and right away he said, "Geezoolgh,

20   thank you for giving me my life.           Grandfather Sun, thank you

21   for giving me my shadow and my image and my heart and my

22   lungs and my blood and my connection to yourself.                Thank you

23   for providing spirit into my life."            And he looked down to

24   Mother Earth and he thanked the Earth for allowing herself


                Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4077

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    for his creation.

2           And he looked to the east, to the direction of the

3    rising sun, he looked to the south, to the west and the

4    north.    And he turned around seven times and then he

5    travelled to the direction of the setting sun until he

6    arrived to area where there are lots of mountains and then

7    he decided to travel south until he arrived to an area of

8    red soil and then he decided to turn back north to the land

9    of the ice and snow.       And at this point, he decided to go

10   back to where he owed his existence, which was somewhere in

11   eastern North America.

12          And there he arrived where the bolts of lighting had

13   hit the earth.      The sparks were still left over on the

14   ground.    And as he was looking up at Grandfather Sun, he saw

15   a bird circling around and slowly this bird was soaring

16   around gracefully in a circular pattern until it landed in

17   front of him and it was the gitpo, the bald eagle.                  And the
18   gitpo identified himself, "I am gitpo, I am bald eagle.                  I

19   have come from the great spirit, the giver of life."

20   Q.     Could you spell that, gitpo?

21   A.     G-I-T-P-O.    And he says, "I -- because I fly the

22   highest of all the birds and see the furtherest of all the

23   birds, I have become the messenger for the Great Spirit and

24   I have come to tell you that you are going to be joined by


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4078

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    your family to help you understand your world."

2           And so as the eagle was flying up into the sky, a

3    feather fell and before it landed on the earth Glooscap

4    picked it up before it landed and he held onto it and he

5    hung on to the feather since then.           And, according to our

6    tradition, oral traditions, the eagle feather has always

7    symbolized our relationship to the life-giver and our

8    relationship to the sacred bird, the eagle, the bald eagle.

9    Q.     Is that an eagle feather you now have in your hand?

10   A.     This is the bald eagle feather that we hold and we

11   bring out during our ceremonies and during our discussions,

12   our meetings and when we do these things.

13   Q.     Part of the sacred bundle.

14   A.     This is part of the sacred bundle, yes.           So as Glooscap

15   turned around and he looked over, he saw an old woman

16   sitting on a rock and he wandered over.            She was -- had grey

17   white silvery hair glistening from the sun reflecting off
18   her.   He wandered up to her and said, "Who are you?                Where

19   did you come from?"

20          And she turned around and said, "Glooscap, my grandson,

21   you do not recognize me.        I am Nogami, I am your

22   grandmother," she said.        "I owe my existence from this rock

23   on the ground.     Early this morning dew formed on this rock.

24    And with the help of the Giver of Life, Grandfather Sun and


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4079

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    Mother Earth gave me a body of an old woman already wise and

2    knowledgeable."

3           She said, "If you respect my wisdom and knowledge, I

4    will help you understand your world.           I will teach you how

5    to obtain your clothes and your food and your shelter and

6    your tools and your medicine and how you're going to travel

7    about, on the water, on the ice, on the snow, and on mother

8    earth."

9           Glooscap was happy that his grandmother came to join

10   him.   He called upon an animal that was scurrying along near

11   the forest and this animal was Abistanoodj, the Martin, and

12   he looked at Martin and said, "My brother," he said, "can

13   you come?    I want to ask a favour of you."             And the Martin

14   said, "Yes, my brother, Glooscap.          What do you want?        He

15   said, "I want to ask you if you can give up your life so

16   that grandmother and I can continue to live.              We need to

17   obtain our food, our clothing, and all these things that we
18   need to survive from you."        The animal says, "My brother,

19   take my life."     And Glooscap took Abistanoodj and passed him

20   over to grandmother.       And grandmother snapped its neck, laid

21   him down on the ground.

22          In the meantime Glooscap looked up and offered his

23   thanks for taking the life and asked for forgiveness for

24   taking the life of an animal who was his brother, and


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4080

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    apologized.

2           And in that same time he also asked if the Giver of

3    Life and the Shadow Giver and Mother Earth could give back

4    the life of this animal, because he says, "The animals are

5    my brothers and sisters, that I will need to rely on them

6    forever so that we will be able to continue to live."                And

7    so the animal came back to life.           And Glooscap told

8    Abistanoodj to go back into the forest where they will stay

9    forever, so that they will enjoy this relationship with one

10   another.

11          In the meantime there was another dead animal in its

12   place.   Grandmother prepared the animal to be cooked and

13   asked Glooscap to bring together seven sparks that were left

14   over from the bolts of lightening and to put together seven

15   pieces of wood on top of these sparks in order to build our

16   fire which we call Uktchibuchtao or the Great Spirit fire.

17          And it was upon this fire that the first meal of meat
18   was eaten to celebrate grandmother's arrival to the world.

19          And so as time went on, Glooscap decided to go down by

20   the water.     And as he was walking down by this tall, sweet-

21   smelling grass, a young man stood up in front of him.                He

22   was tall.     He had black, long hair and white sparkling eyes.

23    And it frightened him.         And he looked at him and he said,

24   "Who are you?      Where did you come from?"


                Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4081

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1           He said, "My uncle, you do not recognize me.              I am your

2    sister's son.      My name is Nedawansum.        I owe my existence

3    from the direction of the rising sun, far out in the ocean,

4    which ocean caused the waters to roil up.              And foam began to

5    form on top of this water.         And the foam was blown ashore,

6    and it rolled along collecting sand and seaweed and all the

7    other elements of the earth.          And finally it rested on this

8    sweet grass.      And with the help of the Giver of Life, the

9    Giver of the Spirit of Life, and the Sustainer of Life gave

10   me a body of a young man."

11          He said, "I bring my physical strength.            I also have

12   spiritual giftedness, and I also have vision for the

13   future."    And he told Glooscap, "If you respect this in me,

14   it will help you understand your purpose in this world."

15          And so Glooscap was happy that his nephew came into

16   this world.     He called upon the fish of the waters and the

17   oceans.    And he said, "My brothers and sisters, the fish,
18   can you come ashore and offer yourselves so that we can

19   continue to survive because you will be able to provide to

20   us all the elements that we need to continue to live."               And

21   so the fish came ashore and offered themselves.

22          Glooscap told his nephew to gather the fish and bring

23   them to grandmother, and grandmother prepared a feast of

24   fish to celebrate his nephew's arrival to the world.


                Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4082

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1           And so Glooscap and his grandmother and his nephew were

2    enjoying their world around the fire, keeping warm, cooking

3    their meals and so on.

4           So one day Glooscap was alone by the fire.            A woman

5    came and sat beside him and said, "Are you cold, my son?"

6    He looked at her and said, "Who are you?            Where did you come

7    from?"

8           She said, "I am your mother.        You do not recognize me,

9    my son.   I owe my existence from the leaf of a tree that

10   fell to the ground.      And early this morning dew formed over

11   this leaf.    And with help of the Giver of Life, the Spirit

12   Giver, and the Shadow Giver, and the Sustainer of Life,

13   Mother Earth gave me a body of a young woman."

14          She said, "I bring all the colours of the world, all

15   the blues of the skies, the yellows of the sun to form

16   together the greens of the grass and the forest.              The red of

17   the earth, the black of the night, the white of the snow and
18   all the colours of the rainbow."

19          And she said, "I bring strength so that my children

20   will withstand the elements of the earth, and I bring

21   understanding that they will rely on one another and listen

22   to one another, so that the will continue to survive and

23   exist."

24          Glooscap was happy that his mother came into existence.


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4083

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1     This time he called upon his nephew to go and gather all

2    the food from the plants and the trees and the roots and

3    brought these together for grandmother to prepare a feast to

4    celebrate his mother's arrival to the world.

5           And so in this way Glooscap was able to enjoy the

6    wisdom and knowledge of his grandmother.            He was able to

7    enjoy and understand the spiritual giftedness, the physical

8    strength and the vision for the young people for the future.

9     And also the strength and understanding of his mother.

10          So one day the eagle came back to visit Glooscap when

11   he was alone.     And he said, "Grandmother and you have to

12   leave the world.      You have to go to the spirit world.           And

13   the only time that you will come back is some day when the

14   Mi'kmaq people are going to be in the danger of ceasing to

15   exist.   Glooscap will come back to help.           You and

16   grandmother will have to stay in the spirit world, but you

17   have to instruct your mother and your nephew to make sure
18   that this spirit fire never goes out, because out of this

19   fire a spark will fly, and when it lands on the ground a

20   woman will be created.       And another spark will fly out, and

21   another woman.     Finally there will be seven women created

22   all together.     And seven more sparks will fly out and seven

23   men will be created.       And together they will form seven

24   families.    And they will disperse from the area of the fire


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4084

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    by taking a piece of the fire with them."

2           And we are told by our elders that the Mi'kmaq people

3    arrived in Mi'kmagy and divided themselves into seven clans,

4    in order not to forget the significance and the meaning of

5    the number seven in relation to the creation story.

6           And so the seven districts of the Mi'kmaq Grand Council

7    are set up in such a way that the clans would not interfere

8    with one another in the way that they survive from Mother

9    Earth, the elements of Mother Earth, from the rivers and the

10   forests and the oceans, but they will be able to survive

11   from the fish, the animals, the birds, and the plants and

12   the trees.

13          So Glooscap also instructed his mother and nephew that

14   when the people dispersed from the area, the seven original

15   families will return to the area of Uktchibuchtao or the

16   Great Fire, which is, we believe, somewhere between Montreal

17   and Quebec City, modern day Montreal and Quebec City.
18   Somewhere in between there is the area of the great fire.

19          And after the passing of seven winters, Glooscap told

20   his mother and his nephew that the Mi'kmaq people will

21   gather their seven fires and bring together their wood, some

22   elements of stone, and skins of animals, as well as

23   medicines that will be identified as the strongest medicines

24   that offer themselves, healing and wellness.


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4085

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1           So after they arrive to the area of the Great Fire, all

2    the seven original families will rekindle the fire by

3    bringing their fires back together to honour the Giver of

4    Life, Geezoolgh, Grandfather Sun, Nisgam, the Giver of the

5    Shadows of Life, the Spirit Giver, and Mother Earth, the

6    Sustainer of Life.

7           They will also honour Glooscap's creation because the

8    bolts of lightening that hit the earth caused sparks to be

9    left over, to be used for the Great Spirit fire.              And so by

10   relighting this, it honours, symbolically, those first four

11   levels of creation.

12          In order not to forget the significance and the meaning

13   of the grandmother, we take the stones, the rocks from which

14   grandmother owed her existence, and we would be able to

15   bring together seven rocks which represent the seven stages

16   of creation, seven more rocks to represent the original

17   families, seven more rocks to represent the seven clans of
18   each of those seven families, and seven more rocks to

19   represent the seven medicines that are brought together from

20   each of those seven original family groups.

21          So in this way when we do our sweat lodge ceremony, we

22   do a dome-shaped covering, almost like a domed-shaped tent

23   where inside the seven representatives from the seven

24   original families, sagamow, we call him, the Grand Chiefs of


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4086

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    each of the original families would sit down and represent

2    their own people.

3            The sagamow, in our language, represents the most

4    oldest individual and the most knowledgeable individual in

5    our society whose responsibility is to look after the

6    spiritual, physical and emotional well being of his own

7    people by providing them with the necessities of life and

8    the spiritual connectedness to his own people from life til

9    death.    And in this way, the sagamow have this

10   responsibility.

11   Q.      What's the word and how do you spell it?

12   A.      S-A-G-A-M-A or M-O-W or M-A-W.         The spelling varies,

13   sagamow.    "Mow" means the "most" and "sag" means "long time

14   ago."    The most long time ago individual.

15           So the seven representatives gathered together to do

16   the sweet grass -- the sweat lodge ceremony. They call upon

17   seven rocks at a time.        They close the area where they all
18   gathered inside of the sweat lodge.            They ask for

19   forgiveness.      They pray to the seven entities of creation

20   and they sing together.         They bring their words together.

21   And they pour water over red hot rocks that have been placed

22   inside of the Uktchibuchtao.          And in this way steam is

23   created and the situation becomes really hot inside of the

24   sweat lodge and this is how we acknowledge our recreation.


                Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4087

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    It is coming back into the womb of our Mother Earth.                And in

2    this way we celebrate our creation as well as grandmother's

3    arrival to the world.

4           Seven more rocks are called upon for the seven original

5    clans, seven more rocks to the seven clans or sub clans of

6    each of the seven families, and seven more rocks for the

7    seven medicines.      And there are four rounds altogether for

8    the sweat lodge involving 28 rocks altogether.

9           And so once this is all done, everybody is red hot from

10   the heat and steaming and sweating.           And when the flap of

11   the sweat lodge opens, everybody comes out almost like a

12   newborn baby, all red and shiny, and crying sometimes, like

13   a newborn baby would cry.

14          And this is how we symbolically give thanks and

15   represent grandmother's creation, arrival to our world, is

16   through the sweat lodge ceremony, by heating the rocks and

17   pouring water on the rocks and creating steam.
18          In order not to forget the significance and the meaning

19   of the nephew who arrived from the sweet grass and the salt

20   water of the ocean and the foam and all the other elements,

21   we take the hair of our Mother Earth and braid it, just like

22   our own hair.

23   Q.     And you're holding up in your hand now, what?

24   A.     This is a braided piece of sweet grass that has been


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4088

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    burnt on the end.       And we light the sweet grass on the

2    Uktchibuchtao, and we offer the smoke of the sweet grass to

3    the Giver of Life, to the Shadow Giver, as well as to Mother

4    Earth, the Sustainer of Life, and to the direction of the

5    east where Glooscap and the eagle come from, the south where

6    the grandmother comes from; the west where our ancestors as

7    well as the young people with the vision for the future, our

8    past as well as our future is represented in the west, and

9    in the north, our mothers, who have the medicine in their

10   systems for us to continue to survive and exist.               And the

11   medicine bear, the white bear, the polar bear of the north

12   is a symbolic representation of our connection to our

13   mothers.

14          And so our words are entrusted in our smoke from the

15   sweet grass, and so we say we offer this smoke to these

16   seven sacred directions or the seven sacred entities, so

17   that we will lodge our promises to them, and so that we will
18   be able to continue in our life in such a way that we hold

19   these sacred covenant and relationships with these spiritual

20   entities as well as with the bird entities, the animal

21   entities, the plant entities, and the fish entities that are

22   involved in the creation.

23          In order not to forget the significance and the meaning

24   of the mother, we take the leaf of the plants and the bark,


                Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4089

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    and we form that together to make our tobacco.               And in this

2    way this represents the mother.           Glooscap's mother comes

3    from the tree and the leaf of the tree is used as our

4    tobacco.    And we offer the tobacco to the giver of life and

5    ask in forgiveness.       And we say these long prayers that we

6    ask if we, you know, we ask for forgiveness for taking a

7    life.    We ask for forgiveness if we have offended something.

8     We ask for strength so that we will continue and guide us

9    in our deliberations and so on, all these seven sacred

10   entities.     The tobacco is offered each time and then placed

11   in the fire and the burning of that tobacco and the rising

12   of the smoke gives the words, delivers these words, our

13   intentions to the spiritual entities as well.

14   Q.      Any particular leaves or bark that you refer to, any

15   particular plants or trees?

16   A.      It depends on where people are living.            There are

17   elements of cedar.       We have bearberry leaves.          There are
18   sweetgrass.     There is sage involved.         Some bark of certain

19   trees.    We have wild tobacco that is incorporated in that.

20   As well as some real tree, parts of a tree, like red cedar

21   that included in this as well.           That's basically it.        And in

22   order to put everything in a meaningful whole and that

23   everything makes sense and is connected and inter-related,

24   because our name, Mi'kmaq people, Nigimaq, and [Nigamana?]


                Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4090

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    It is a term that makes reference to my relations.                   Nigimaq

2    means my relations.

3    Q.      Spell that, please?

4    A.      N-I-G-M-A-K or M-A-G.      Or M-A-Q, depending on where you

5    are.    If I was in Eskasoni, I would say Nigimaq.             And if I

6    was in Big Cove, I would say Nigimaq.            And, in Restigouche,

7    they would say Nigimaq.         So Nigimaq means my relations.

8    [Wigimaq?] means his relations.           [Wogamaq?] means their

9    relations.     [Gogamaq?] is your relations.           So, in that

10   context, the word nigimaq became a noun.             Became a noun

11   rather than a pronoun because each time my relations, your

12   relations, his relations, in our language, in the Mi'kmaq

13   language, logically, there is no such thing as a word as

14   relation separate away from something else.               It has to be

15   attached to something.        It's my relation, your relation or

16   their relation.      So the word nigimaq is more or less a

17   European formulation to signify these people are a relation
18   of people and we have not --

19   Q.      You mean they are related to each other?

20   A.      We are related to the animals.         We are related to the

21   land.    We are related to the sun, yes.           So, in that context,

22   the stone from which grandmother owed its existence is

23   shaped into a pipe.

24   Q.      You're now holding a stone bowl, is it?


                Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4091

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    A.     This is a stone bowl that it is not a traditional

2    Mi'kmaq pipe.     It is one that has been given to me to carry

3    for the Treaty Number 6 of Cree in Alberta where one of the

4    members of their tribe, Wandering Spirit, who was hanged

5    during the Riel rebellion, it has been in his family for a

6    long time and the elder of that was carrying it after

7    hearing the Creation Story related to me, that he had a

8    dream a year before when he was preparing for a sundance,

9    that somebody from the direction of the rising sun had just

10   saw a figure coming with a gift and he said that Creation

11   Story was a gift to me, and I was supposed to give this pipe

12   to you.   And I've been carrying this since 1992, from a

13   ceremony that I did in Frog Lake with the First Nations

14   Circle on the Constitution.         So it's been an honour for me

15   to carry it.

16          My own pipe is in a sacred bundle and I am not allowed

17   to take it out unless I do it in a particular ceremony among
18   my own nation.

19          So I am using this Cree pipe as an example.            So the

20   stone of the pipe, the stone is shaped into a pipe that

21   represents grandmother.        The stem of the pipe comes from a

22   tree that is Glooscap's mother.

23   Q.     Is that true as well of the Mi'kmaq pipe that you

24   referred to?


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4092

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    A.     This is true of the Mi'kmaq pipe.          This is more a

2    representation of a 10-day fast that I undertook, fasting

3    without food and water, in order to obtain a vision as to

4    the kind of stem that I am going to put onto this pipe.                I

5    had to undergo this ceremony in order to properly receive

6    and carry this pipe.

7    Q.     So the stem you have there is a Mi'kmaq stem, is it?

8    A.     It is a stem.    It is my own design of the stem.            In our

9    culture, the pipe gets passed down from generations.                The

10   stems stay with the person.

11          And sometimes the stems are offered in a sacred fire,

12   or Uktchibuchtao, in order to bring to another level of a

13   ceremony or a closure or a continuance or             another phase of

14   our spiritual activities.

15          So this is a stem that comes from the tree.            It's made

16   out of black cherry, cherrywood.          And so it brings together

17   the spirit of the mother and the grandmother.              The wisdom
18   and knowledge, the understanding, the spiritual guidance

19   that the mother has and we bring together to form the pipe.

20          So we take the tobacco that comes from the leaves as

21   well from the mother and we fill the pipe offering the

22   tobacco to the seven sacred entities, because we call upon

23   these spirits to sit around and to listen to our

24   deliberations, our words and so that we will be able to send


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4093

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    the smoke back with the spirits and say go back to where you

2    come from and take our words with you.             So guide our words

3    and protect them so that they would not be disrupted or

4    broken, unless we come back together and call these spirits

5    back together and we want to agree to change our words and

6    then blow the smoke back to these entities.

7           Also, in order, once we fill the pipe with seven

8    pinches of tobacco and it's brought back together, we take

9    the hair of Mother Earth, which is represented by the

10   nephew, who arrived on the sweetgrass.             We take the

11   sweetgrass and light it on the Uktchibuchtao or the spirit

12   fire and we draw the smoke into our mouths but not into our

13   lungs and we offer -- we blow the smoke.             This is how we

14   entrust our words.       So the tobacco and the pipe ceremony and

15   the sweetgrass ceremony is integral to our relationships to

16   each other as human beings, our relationships to the

17   animals, the plants and the birds and the fish, our
18   relationships as clans we relate to each other, and our

19   relationships with our neighbouring nations, like the

20   Gwedech, Penobscot, Passamaquoddy people, the Maliseet

21   nations.

22          And, in this way, we are able to sit down and share our

23   words and we come to some consensus or agreements and this

24   is how we do our ceremonies.          Once the ceremonies are done,


                Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4094

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    we sit down and we have these feasts to signify these

2    arrivals of these different entities.            We have a feast of

3    birds to offer thanks to Glooscap's creation.               We have a

4    feast of animals to honour grandmother.             We have a feast of

5    fish to honour the young people and a feast of plants and

6    fruits and vegetables to honour our mother.               In this way, we

7    are able to have these feasts to offer food to one another

8    as our thanks to our creation and providing respect and

9    dignity to our deliberations.

10          In this way, when we gather together, when we go to the

11   tobacco or the sweetgrass ceremony, we say we are going to

12   put our differences outside of this circle and when we come

13   inside of the circle, we cleanse our ears so the sweetgrass

14   ceremony is done and we cleanse our ears, our eyes, our

15   mouth, our nose, and our hearts and our hands.               So, in this

16   way, we will look and hear and sense and share our words

17   from the dignity of our hearts and our minds with a clean
18   mind and an open heart.

19          So a lot of our ceremonies are in relation are in this

20   context.    This is the meaningful symbolic embodiment of

21   solemnizing our words with one another and these extend to

22   animals as well as birds, plants and whatever between human

23   beings, between families, clans, districts, nations and so

24   on.


                Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4095

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1           So, in a lot of ways, a lot of these ceremonies had

2    been observed and recorded in the written context but the

3    full understanding of them was not ever conveyed in the

4    documentation that is available surrounding ceremonies that

5    involved European peoples and treaty agreements.              I say that

6    in advance in the context of this process.

7           There is a process whereby this ceremony, the pipe is

8    brought out and this ceremony is conducted when we gather

9    together to just share things or to come to some consensus

10   on issues.    Either they could be conflicting.            It may be

11   involving war or peace or it could be just marriage and

12   whatever.

13   Q.     Now you mentioned something about the seven sparks

14   making seven women and seven sparks making seven men, that

15   they formed seven clans and went into seven different areas.

16   A.     Yes.

17   Q.     Can you say anything as to whether the Creation Story
18   says anything about where those seven places are?

19   A.     They just basically went east and west and north and

20   south and some places in between in some of the areas.              The

21   Abenaki probably is one of them.          The Algonquin Nation,

22   Odawas are one of them, certainly, and the Montagnais

23   probably one of them.       The way the story came down to us is

24   more or less its context in our world view.


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4096

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1           A similar kind of a Creation Story was recorded among

2    the Penobscot Nation by an individual by the name of Joseph

3    [Nicolar?] who published the book in 1890s, in Maine, and it

4    was entitled "The Life and Traditions of the Red Men," and

5    there is also a version of the Creation Story that was

6    related to him by his own ancestors in the early 1800s.             And

7    it also includes Glooscap, his grandmother, a nephew and a

8    mother figure and those other elements of creation.

9    Q.     You were mentioning a location thought to be somewhere

10   between Montreal and Quebec?

11   A.     Somewhere in that area.

12   Q.     Is that the origin of Glooscap and the fire from which

13   the seven clans were formed?

14   A.     Yes.

15   Q.     Would the Mi'kmaq be one of those seven?

16   A.     The Mi'kmaq are one of those that belong to those seven

17   original families.      Even at the time of contact, these
18   people had some differences but they had traditionally come

19   together to the area of the great fire to form a council

20   with the Abenaki, the Odawas, the Maliseet, the

21   Passamaquoddy, Penobscot Nation and the Mi'kmaq people.

22   Q.     Okay, anything further on the Creation Story?

23   A.     The only other element is these colour sequences, the

24   white represents the north; the yellow, the east; the red,


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                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4097

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    the south; and the black to the west.           Because early in the

2    morning when we are doing our ceremonies, mostly this is

3    when it occurs, during the sunrise, and the direction of the

4    east is yellow.     The sun is coming up and when we look

5    behind us, it is still darkness in the west.              And to the

6    north there is white for the snow.           To the south is the

7    redness of the land in the south.          The soil is red.

8    Q.     So the bundle contains four pieces of cloth that were

9    the colours you just gave?

10   A.     Yes, and the ribbons on the stem of the pipe represent

11   the blue of the sky, the green of Mother Earth.              And the

12   purple representing our hearts, which represents grandfather

13   sun, who gave us our shadows, our spirits, our hearts and

14   our -- I was going to say liver -- but lungs.

15   Q.     I think we have covered on the record             the other

16   elements that you have identified in the bundles except

17   maybe the tobacco was in a buckskin pouch, is it, a deerskin
18   pouch?

19   A.     The tobacco is in bearskin pouch with glass beads on

20   there with an image of a thunderbird.           It was given to me

21   from the [Ishnabay?] people in [Giddygonzeebee] in Maniwaki

22   near -- northeast of Ottawa, about two hour's drive.

23   Q.     And the rocks were in another pouch that you did not

24   take out?


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4098

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    A.     The rocks are representations of grandmother and they

2    are rocks that have been given to me from different areas of

3    the world and there is even a piece of coal that comes from

4    France, the children of France who were afflicted with

5    cancer gave me a piece of coal when I went there to do

6    ceremonies for them.

7    Q.     Okay, so that brings to a close the Creation Story?

8    A.     Yes.

9    MR. WILDSMITH      Would Your Honour like to take an afternoon

10   break?

11   THE COURT All right.        Let's try to be back by quarter to

12   four, just make it a short break.

13   COURT RECESSES

14   COURT RESUMES

15   THE COURT Mr. Wildsmith.

16   MR. WILDSMITH      Chief Augustine, are we ready now to move to

17   the stories that came from your grandfather, John Simon.
18   A.     Yes.    There are two stories that are significant in

19   explaining our relationships as family groups and our

20   relationships between each other, between ourselves as

21   living within the different districts of our Grand Council.

22          I might just explain a little bit the whole notion of

23   our use of English terminology in this context to try to

24   explain.      Districts in our context, in our words does not


                Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4099

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    attribute territoriality towards our society.              Like there

2    were no visible boundaries between the districts and nobody

3    was standing guard on each of those areas saying, well,

4    you're now in Sigenigtog.        You're now in -- And so when I

5    say "Districts of the Grand Council," in the context that I

6    would use it in our own language, we call it mawiomi.               M-A-

7    W-I-O-M-I.    Mawiomi is sort of like a fire that is burning.

8     We come to the fire to warm ourselves.            We come to the fire

9    to cook our meals.      We come to the fire to perform our

10   ceremonies.    And we come to the fire to enter into agreement

11   with one another.      And so the purpose of the mawiomi is to

12   keep these fires going in such a way that all of our people

13   within our mawiomi, within -- that identified themselves

14   attached to that fire will come to that fire during our

15   gatherings and ceremonies.

16          So the mawiomi, in that context, is a way of ensuring

17   that people survive, that we would be able to provide
18   clothing and food and shelter and those things that when an

19   individual is not able to provide that for themselves, like

20   elders and orphan children or widows.           And so in this way,

21   the function of our mawiomis and the sagamaw in that

22   context, is more integral to the survival of our peoples

23   within a certain geographic area.

24          But it's not territorially identified in the way that


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4100

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    municipalities would be identified, in a way counties would

2    be identified in the European context.            So --

3    Q.     Would there be seven of those mawiomis?

4    A.     There are seven mawiomis in the Grand Council, so, in

5    this context, the story -- the first one, if I might make

6    reference here to number 3 on the evidence guide --

7    Q.     Yes.

8    A.     -- Grandfather Johnny, S-I-M-O-N-D-S, the ethnographer

9    that was collecting this information in 1964 thought my

10   grandfather's name sounded like Simonds so she spelled it

11   that way.      It was Marie L.G. Corsetti that collected this

12   information in 1964.

13   Q.     Could I just ask you to take a look at Volume 17 and

14   the two tab numbers that are marked there just to identify

15   whether those are written components of those two stories?

16   Is that what you're referring to now by the ethnographer who

17   collected them?     That's Exhibit 17, Tab -- Volume 17,
18   Documents 314 and 315.

19   A.     Yes.    These are the documents that I'm going to talk

20   about.

21   Q.     Okay.    I'm not going to ask you to read them or

22   anything.      I just want you to identify them.          And you say

23   they were originally collected by Angeli or L.G.

24   A.     L.G. Corsetti.


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4101

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    Q.     And these two documents, are they contained in the

2    collections of the Canadian Museum of Civilization?

3    A.     Yes, they are.    They're identified as 3-F-15M, Box 23,

4    F4 and the next one is also in the same reference area.

5    Q.     So were they collected independently of you?

6    A.     Independently of me?

7    Q.     Yes.

8    A.     Yes, they were.     We have the tape recordings and the

9    translation was done by my grandfather's son's wife.

10   Q.     So were they recorded as Mi'kmaq language?

11   A.     The originals were recorded in the Mi'kmaq language.

12   And I must say, the written context vary a little bit.

13   Q.     Yes.

14   A.     Because of the education of the person that was trying

15   to translate them.

16   Q.     And did you get the stories from your grandfather

17   directly or grandmother directly?
18   A.     I got them from my grandfather, Johnny Simon, with whom

19   I lived with after I came back from Germany.             My parents

20   wanted me to learn more about my culture, my language from

21   my grandfather, Johnny Simon, and my godmother, and she

22   wasn't my biological grandmother, she was my

23   stepgrandmother, but she was also my godmother, who was an

24   Acadian person that was adopted in Big Cove when she was a


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4102

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    child.    And she grew up in Big Cove speaking our language

2    and learning our culture and knowing more about our culture

3    than most.     She was very instrumental in teaching me a lot

4    about my own traditions as well as my grandfather.                   This

5    story comes from my grandfather, Johnny Simon.

6    Q.     Told to you directly.

7    A.     Yes.    S-I-M-O-N.

8    Q.     Yes.    And I see on Exhibit 46, the Alguimou clan

9    history, there is a reference to a John Simon, S-I-M-O-N.

10   A.     Yes, that would be his -- that would be my mother's

11   father.

12   Q.     And that's who you're talking about here?

13   A.     Yes.

14   Q.     Okay.

15   A.     There are two stories in relation to him conveying

16   them.     One is about Oijiboget and the other one is

17   Getoasoloet. They're reversed or inversed here --
18   Q.     You would like to tell them in the reverse order --

19   A.     I'd like to tell them in the reserve order because --

20   Q.     Oijiboget first?

21   A.     Oijiboget, yes.      It's a story about an individual that

22   I was living in Restigouche with a community of Mi'kmaq

23   people.    I say "a community," would be around Bay de Chaleur

24   area and finally in and around where the modern day


                Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4103

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    community of Restigouche is, that general area around there

2    has been identified as Listugutj.           It encompasses several

3    rivers and the Bay de Chaleur and in the south side of New

4    Brunswick as well.       So --

5    Q.     At the risk of asking a silly question, can you put a

6    time frame on when the story would take place?

7    A.     Before the arrival of Europeans to North America.             The

8    story is about Kwedech people, K-W-E-D-E-C-H, arriving and

9    raiding a Mi'kmaq community.

10   Q.     Kwedech are those that we earlier suggested might be

11   Mohawk?

12   A.     They've been suggested to be the Mohawk people, yes,

13   that were occupying the area around Montreal, Quebec, on the

14   south side of the St. Lawrence River.            And they came and

15   sometimes arrived in Gaspe and so a lot of times there were

16   skirmishes between the Mi'kmaq and the Kwedech and a lot of

17   the oral context refer to those skirmishes and this is one
18   of them.    And the Kwedech, having arrived and wiped out

19   almost every Mi'kmaq in the area and chased away the rest,

20   captured a woman and the woman was pregnant.              And she was

21   taken by a Kwedech chief and she gave birth to her baby.

22   And the Kwedech chief adopted him as his son.

23          And the young person grew up in the Mohawk and Kwedech

24   territory with the other kids.           Finally came home to his


                Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4104

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    mother one day and said, "They're making fun of me and the

2    way I talk.    They're making fun of me.          They call me

3    Oijiboget, meaning a little bit small for his size.                 And so

4    his mother says, "Well, that's because you're not one of

5    them."   And he says, "Well, who am I then?"             And she says,

6    "You are a Mi'kmaq and you come from Mi'kmagy and your

7    father, the chief, stepfather, killed your father and took

8    me and captured me as his wife and now we are here."

9           And the young boy wanted to know if he could learn the

10   language of his culture.        And so the woman started to teach

11   him about the language and started to show him canoes and --

12   that are more or less made by the Mi'kmaq people, snowshoes

13   so she could determine who his own people were, medicines,

14   traditional medicines and all these other things that he

15   needed to know about his own culture.

16   Q.     When you say that, can you tell the difference between

17   snowshoes that come from one aboriginal group from another
18   or canoes that come from one --

19   A.     Well, the canoes are distinctly different among the

20   Mi'kmaq people.     In relation to the Kwedech, the canoes have

21   the high gunnels on the side and they have a low front and

22   back of the canoe to -- for more or less river travel as

23   well as ocean travel.       And some of the rivers are rough that

24   are near the oceans and so they were built in such a way to


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4105

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    withstand high waves and which are differently constructed

2    than canoes that are made more or less for inland travel in

3    the lakes and the lesser rivers.

4    Q.     Is that true of snowshoes as well?

5    A.     Snowshoes are, among the Mi'kmaq people, because the

6    snow is wet and it freezes a lot of times and there's crusty

7    snow, the snowshoes are made in such a way that the webbing

8    that is made out of moose hide is thicker and has a kind of

9    like a wider knitting.

10          Meanwhile in towards Kwedech territory, the snowshoes

11   are a little bit more closer woven and there are thinner

12   stripes of hide used, and so it facilitated weight being

13   carried on light powdery kind of snow as opposed to the snow

14   that was in the East Coast that was wet and crusty.

15   Q.     Okay.   So --

16   A.     So --

17   Q.     -- wanted to know --
18   A.     -- the mother taught the young boy the difference

19   between these techniques of our -- how we survived and to

20   understand those.      Also she taught him the Mi'kmaq language.

21    And so one day he decided that he would kill his stepfather

22   and so he attacked him while he was sleeping one day and hit

23   him on the bottom of his foot because he knew that the

24   Kwedech chief was a spiritual, strong, spiritually strong


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4106

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    individual, this was a way to kill the person is to hit him

2    under the heel.      And this is how he discovered the weakness

3    of his stepfather and killed him in that way.

4            And he had asked his mother to prepare him moccasins

5    that were designed in the Mi'kmaq way, snowshoes, and arrows

6    and whatnot so that he -- when he arrived back in Mi'kmaq

7    territory, that he would be recognized.             But as soon as he

8    left, it was during the summer, and he automatically assumed

9    the shape of a turtle and hid in the sand and he -- to

10   escape detection from the Mohawks.            And then he turned into

11   a loon and dove in the water and swam for long ways, the

12   alguimou, and this is where the family name comes from that

13   bird.

14           Anyway, he pretends to act as a bird or turns into a

15   bird and the Mohawk chase him with spears and they can't

16   detect him under water because he swims fast and stays under

17   for a long time.
18           Then he shapes -- changes his shape into a rabbit and a

19   rabbit dives into the snow and buries itself into the snow

20   and escapes detection by the Mohawk or the Iroquois.                 And

21   they use spears to destroy the snow, and today they have a

22   game that's called snow snakes that is in relation to this

23   chase to try to capture this Mi'kmaq who escaped the

24   Kwedech.


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                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4107

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1            And so they tried to throw their spears in the snow and

2    they don't hit the rabbit.         And then he turns into a

3    partridge and he climbs on the trees and hops from tree to

4    tree.    Finally, he arrives in -- back into Mi'kmagy because

5    he hears several children playing and he knows that they're

6    speaking Mi'kmaq, so he jumps down and turns into a child

7    and take -- goes home with these children.                And in this way,

8    he arrives to the home back to Listugutj.

9            And the mother recognizes that this young person is not

10   who he's supposed to be, so he says, "Who are you?"                  And he

11   says, I am Oijiboget.        I am son of this certain Mi'kmaq

12   chief that used to be here.          And he says, "Oh, I know you,

13   who you are."

14           And so she instructed him to go to the next wigwam

15   which was the grandmother's house and he stayed there and

16   decided to seek the hand of the chief's daughter.                And this

17   chief happened to be somebody else that's not originally
18   from this area and he had a battle with the chief, and this

19   is more or less cutting it short.

20           Because what the story indicates is that the Mi'kmaq

21   people in this story, in this legend identify themselves

22   between the nation that they had battles with and that

23   Oijiboget is this person that came back from this to tell of

24   his survival and to come back to his people and identify all


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                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4108

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    of these elements of his own culture as well as weaving

2    himself into the land, in the water, in the sand, in the

3    rabbits, in the birds and the trees.

4           And in this way we are also -- the story identifies

5    that there is a spiritual connection to these animal

6    entities and these bird entities and elements of Mother

7    Earth, the snow, the earth, the water and the trees and

8    those things that are the embodiment of our world.                  And that

9    this relationship has significance to what we do today and

10   our beliefs and our relationships today with our earth.

11          So the story of Oijiboget basically ends there.               He --

12   well, he goes back and attacks the people and they raid the

13   Kwedech and there is a games going on of endurance and there

14   seems to be almost like a game of chess going on inside of a

15   wigwam between he and Mohawk chiefs.           And in this way, there

16   is some kind of a spiritual battle going on which sometimes

17   has been misrecorded as a real all-out bloody battle between
18   the Mohawk and the Mi'kmaq people, but it was more or less a

19   family skirmish.

20          So that's -- in that context I want to just relate that

21   part of the story as the beginning part of it.              The next

22   chapter goes into Getosasaloet.

23   Q.     And that's the story that's under Tab 314 then in

24   Volume 17.


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                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4109

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    A.     Yes, and this one is about a Mi'kmaq chief that lives

2    in Restigouche area, again.          And he is attacked by Kwedech

3    and he was supposed to have listened to his father not to

4    wander too far into Kwedech territory and he does.                   And so

5    he runs afoul of the neighbouring Kwedech and he is attacked

6    and he survives, but his village is in shambles and

7    everybody's ran away.        So he wants to survive and he goes to

8    the mountain where they call that today Sugarloaf Mountain

9    in Campbellton.

10          And he goes to the base of that because there's a

11   source, a water source and a spring which is supposed to

12   have spiritual values to it and then if you go and put your

13   wound or whatever, that you will be fixed.                And so

14   Getoasaloet lays under there and finally his wounds are

15   fixed up.

16          And finally he decides to travel through Mi'kmagy and

17   he goes to [Dubosemkek?], to Burnt Church, Eel Ground,
18   around that area Kouchibouguac, [Bedjibouquack?] Richeboucto

19   River, Buctouche River, Cocagne, Shediac, Aboujagane and he

20   keeps going all the way down to Shubenacadie, Canso, and on

21   to Onamagi, and he wants to go and visit his uncle, who is

22   Pierre Algimaut.       And he asked his uncle if there is a young

23   woman --

24   Q.     So he is from Restigouche?


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                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4110

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    A.     And he goes all the way to Onamagi.

2    Q.     Which is Cape Breton.

3    A.     To Cape Breton.

4    Q.     Where his uncle lives.

5    A.     Where his uncle lives and he asked his uncle if he

6    could have the hand of a woman in that community and the

7    uncle says yes, take her with you.           So, on his way back, he

8    picks up people and he advises them, he stops at Aboujagane.

9     He also talks to --

10   Q.     Where is that?

11   A.     Aboujagane.    There is a community there and he stops

12   there to visit and says I've been attacked, you know, and

13   now I have a new wife and I want you to help me reform my

14   community.    And he is told that he can take some families

15   with him to join him.        And he talks to a person by the name

16   of Alguimou as well in that area.           Al --

17   Q.     My geography must be bad because I don't know where
18   that particular place is that you're referring to.                  Perhaps

19   Your Honour does or the Crown does but I don't.

20   A.     Aboujagane is near Shediac, New Brunswick.            Between

21   Moncton and Shediac.       It's a river.      It divides and we call

22   it Aboujagane meaning where the river divides.

23          But also when you start to put a needle into a bead,

24   you say Nabosagegen.       So it has a double meaning.          People


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                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4111

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    where they made beads, also where the river forks out.                 And

2    so he continues his way.        He stops at Lsipogtog and talks to

3    Michel Augustine and asked if he can provide some elements

4    to his family and they go back.

5           And he arrives back to Listugutj and he and his wife

6    marry and they have children and his two young sons go out

7    and camp somewhere in the wilderness and the young sons hear

8    somebody coming and one of the sons says "I don't hear

9    anything," and the other says, "I do.           It's coming.        It's

10   arriving."    For two days he listens and finally on the last

11   day, a frog appears and says, you know, "The Kwedech are

12   coming.   You had better go and warn your father because

13   they're going to do the same thing."

14          So they go and warn his father and the father says, "I

15   don't know anything about the Kwedech.            I am a powerful

16   chief.    I know I should have knowledge about this thing and

17   I don't know it."      So his mother and children and his wife
18   leave the area and he is left alone.           Again, he is attacked

19   and the community gets wiped out and he does the same thing.

20    He goes back looking for more people, but not for a wife

21   this time.    And he comes back again, repopulating the area.

22          And the fact that the area is called Listugutj today,

23   in our language, when you say "Listugutj," means don't heed

24   your father.     Don't listen to your father.            Don't obey your


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4112

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    father or disobey your father.          So that area got to be named

2    Listugutj for disobeying your father.           The story is in

3    relation to a young man not obeying his father.

4           Also, the story is used in a context of almost like the

5    main frame for our ancestry.         It involves and includes

6    elements of our past, like our ancestors.             Algimating is

7    also included in this story, Michel Argimou or Michel

8    Augustine.    Pierre Algimou is also included in this story.

9    And so these people may have spanned two, 300 years in our

10   past but they're all incorporated in this one story about

11   this person travelling back and forth through our mawiomi to

12   try to repopulate and also explaining the nature of the

13   naming of that area.       So it has several functions in our

14   world view.

15          So it is important in the way that the story is

16   conveyed.    It embodied the supernatural elements or our

17   society, also incorporating the real life contemporary
18   personages in our culture as well as those individuals that

19   were known to be very famous for their involvement in

20   certain events that took place in our history.

21   Q.     Was Getoasaloet looking for a wife in all of the

22   communities that he was going into?

23   A.     He was looking for a wife when he went to Omamagi or

24   Cape Breton, and he found one.          He was involved in a


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4113

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    different -- There's other legends that are attached to it

2    and they expand and kind of develop in different way.               There

3    is a story about him and his relationship with that woman

4    and the woman spirit and soul being taken out somewhere in

5    the ocean and seven wizards or witches taking her soul out

6    of her and keeping her in a teepee far out in the ocean.

7           So that has a story in the context of relationships to

8    people who are gifted to do things in a supernatural way,

9    and it also conveys the protocols and the mannerisms that we

10   have to have in relation to those individuals.              Because if

11   we don't treat them right, that they could make life

12   miserable for us.      Or if we treat them right, that they

13   could make life good for us.         They were not always

14   identified as evil or bad and, in our context, I firmly

15   believe there was no element or understanding of bad.

16          As in relation to the Creation Story, the story

17   unfolded and everything was explained as it related to
18   everything else.      There was no dualism in the context of

19   good and evil counterplaying one another.

20          And I think the story that is related about Glooscap's

21   wife being taken by a witch, an evil witch, is more or less

22   a European interpretation of the story when it was recorded

23   by Silas Rand and the influence of the priest to indicate

24   those people who have spiritual giftedness are evil and are


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                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4114

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    associated with the devil.

2    Q.      In the Getoasaloet's story, you indicate that he moved

3    from Restigouche to various communities along the way to

4    Omamagi?

5    A.      Yes.

6    Q.      What significance should be attached to your reference

7    to those places?

8    A.      Well, the names of those communities along the way,

9    Aboujagane and the connectiveness of those communities and

10   those rivers.      Like Lsipotog was not the community of

11   Richiboucto or the community of Big Cove or Indian Island on

12   the Richiboucto River.        Lsibougtou was that area where the

13   river of fire, Uktchibuchtao, as you will recall, is the

14   great fire and Lsibougtou, Richiboucto River, in our

15   context, L-S-I-B-O-U-G-T-O-U, refers to the path of the

16   fire.

17           When you travel along the river, it goes east to west.
18    Early in the morning as the sun is coming, it looks like

19   the river is on fire and in the evening, when the sun is

20   setting, when you are going back into the river, it looks

21   like the river is on fire as well.            So they call that river

22   the path of the fire.        Lsibougtou.

23           And it also bears significance to the Algimou family

24   that lived on the Richiboucto River.            It also bears


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     4115

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    significance to the Pierre Denys Algimou that moved to

2    Omamagi or Cape Breton in that there is a relatedness and

3    there's connection to the Pierre Algimou, who was in Omamagi

4    and Pierre Algimou is the Pierre Denys that moved there and

5    had the son named Thomas Denys and Tom.             Toma Denys had a

6    great-grandson, his name was John Denys, who happened to be

7    the Grand Chief of the Grand Council is 1910.

8    Q.     Anything further you would like to say about those two

9    legends?

10   A.     It's the oral traditions are always speaking about our

11   relationship and our connectiveness to the physical and the

12   spiritual world and it embodies all aspects of our life, our

13   daily life.

14   Q.     Shall we move to Item 4, the wampum belts?

15   A.     Yes.

16   Q.     Perhaps I could start by showing you Defence Exhibit

17   17, volume 2, and the item that is found under tab 14.
18   Would you identify what that is?

19   A.     Under tab 14, there are several photographs.

20   Q.     Do you recognize those?

21   A.     I took those photographs of the wampum belt.

22   Q.     There's four pages in here?

23   A.     Yes.

24   Q.     Of photographs.      I guess a total of eight photographs.


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     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1     Or, sorry, seven photographs.

2    A.      Seven photographs.      The magic number seven.        Yes, these

3    are seven photographs.        The first one, I might show here is

4    an element of the --

5    Q.      Could I ask if you have the belt with you?

6    A.      I have the original wampum belt here, which is a

7    replica of the one that was entered into between the French

8    and the Mi'kmaq during Membertou's baptism in 1610 on June

9    24th.    The occasion was recorded on a wampum belt some time

10   after that period and our people, the Mi'kmaq, kept a wampum

11   belt that had a white background with purple beads that

12   represented the symbols on the wampum.

13           And a wampum belt was given to the French that had

14   purple background and white beads as the symbols, almost

15   reverse of what the Mi'kmaq had and kept among our people.

16   Q.      Having identified these as photographs you've taken,

17   are you able to say that they're accurate representations of
18   the belt and the tape measure or the circumstances in which

19   they were taken?

20   A.      Yes, I put the tape measure for the sake of offering

21   the size of it or dimensions of the wampum belt.

22   Q.      Perhaps then for the purpose of your testimony now, you

23   might take the actual belt and use that.

24   A.      Yes.   These photographs are representations of the


                Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

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     4117

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    original.

2    Q.     How did the particular item that you're holding in your

3    hand come into existence?

4    A.     How did this one come into existence?

5    Q.     Yes.   You said it was a replica or reproduction.

6    A.     I made it.   It took me about eight months.

7    Q.     Show it to His Honour.

8    A.     It's made out of glass beads, synthetic sinew and

9    dental floss and it's a replica of the original that is kept

10   in the museum in Rome.

11   Q.     It's in the Vatican?

12   A.     In the Vatican, yes.

13   Q.     Have you attempted to see the original?

14   A.     I visited the Vatican two years ago and I was told by

15   the representatives there that the museum where the wampum

16   belt was stored had been closed.          It was closed before the

17   Second World War and all of the collection that was in the
18   museum was placed inside the Vatican somewhere underneath in

19   what they called the catacombs underneath the Vatican in --

20   and so after the war, they did not reopen the museum.               And

21   so these objects were still somewhere in the catacombs and

22   they could not locate them.

23   Q.     So you sought to see the original and you were

24   unsuccessful.


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     4118

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    A.     I was unsuccessful, yes.

2    Q.     What made you think that it was there to start with?

3    A.     There was an article that was published by David

4    Bushnell.

5    Q.     Is that the article that's found at Volume 15 under Tab

6    293?

7    A.     Yes, it is.    And this is an article written by David I.

8    Bushnell, Jr., 40 American Anthropologist, Volume 8, 1908,

9    on pages 243 to 255 and it's entitled North American

10   Ethnographical Material in Italian Collection.              And in his

11   article on -- there's is -- I don't think a page number

12   attributed to it, but after -- two pages after 248 there is

13   a, oh, no, sorry, I missed a page.

14   Q.     Are you looking at the page after 249?

15   A.     Yes.

16   Q.     249 is chopped off on the top right corner, but it

17   looks like it's page 249 and then there's a picture of two
18   or, sorry, well, there's a picture of two items called

19   "wampum stole in the Museum of the Propaganda Fede Rome".

20   A.     Yes.

21   Q.     Fede?

22   A.     Yes.    And this is the photograph that Bushnell took of

23   the wampum belt that he physically saw when he visited the

24   Vatican in Rome and at the Collegio de Propaganda Fede.


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4119

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    Q.     Is that a photograph, the -- what appears in the

2    "American Anthropologist" in those photographs?

3    A.     Yes.

4    Q.     How do they compare with this item in Tab 14 of the

5    defence documents?

6    A.     They're are similar.

7    Q.     It shows your belt folded?

8    A.     Yes.

9    Q.     In a similar way?

10   A.     In a similar way.     I tried to replicate as much as

11   possible from the physical description as well as from the

12   photograph.

13   Q.     Okay.   Where's the physical description of it?

14   A.     I believe it's on the following page, on page 250 on

15   the second paragraph or third paragraph, well, second and

16   third paragraph.      It starts to talk about "The gem of the

17   North American collection is a piece of wampum which is
18   probably the finest existing example of that form of art."

19   And then it describes it's width and length and the number

20   of beads it contains and all.         And it says here, "It was

21   probably made for some missionary in St. Lawrence Valley or

22   in the Iroquoian country."        But he didn't have any specific

23   information.     And where the document -- where the wampum

24   belt is stored, there was no information about the


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                         Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4120

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    provenance of the wampum belt.

2    Q.     The provenance of it?

3    A.     Yes.

4    Q.     And so he identifies it as being Huron?

5    A.     He assumes that it was something that came from the

6    Iroquoian-Huron.

7    Q.     But you don't think it is.

8    A.     No, I know it's not.

9    Q.     Okay.    Why do you know it's not?

10   A.     From our elders' knowledge, oral tradition.

11   Q.     And where did that come to you from?

12   A.     From my grandmother, from my great grandfather or great

13   great great, whatever.

14   Q.     Okay.    And you were going to read the belt to us.

15   Where did you get the information that would allow you to

16   read the belt?

17   A.     My grandmother shared a story about the significance
18   and the meaning of the belt.         As well as members of the

19   Mi'kmaq Grand Council have information about the meaning of

20   the belt.      And this information has been systematically told

21   in our Grand Council meetings.

22   Q.     Okay.

23   A.     Systematically -- successively, I meant to say.

24   MR. WILDSMITH      Your Honour, we certainly could tell the tale


               Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

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     4121

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    of the wampum belt now.         I'm just looking at the clock.       I'm

2    not sure what you might like to do.            It will certainly take

3    us past 4:30.

4    THE COURT How long do you think it's likely to take?

5    MR. WILDSMITH       Ten minutes.

6    THE COURT I don't see any problem with continuing on.

7    MR. WILDSMITH       Okay.

8    A.      Okay.    In the middle of the wampum belt there are two

9    figures.       One individual holding something in his hand on a

10   string, it looks like, and it has a heart and a head and two

11   legs, a triangular body.         The inside of it is kind of white.

12    They're holding a cross and the other person is dressed in

13   black with a hat and holding onto something in its hand.

14   And our elders tell us that this is Membertou accepting the

15   cross from the missionary, Jesuit missionary who offered to

16   baptize him.

17   Q.      That's the figure that's to the left of the cross that
18   you said they're holding onto as you face the belt --

19   A.      Yes.

20   Q.      -- figures are in the upright position?

21   A.      The figure in the black is the black robe or the Jesuit

22   missionary who baptised Membertou.

23   Q.      And the cross, is that located in the centre of the

24   belt?


                Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

                          Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976
     4122

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    A.     The cross is located in the centre of the belt, each

2    one is holding onto the cross.

3    Q.     Okay.    So the figures are on either side of the cross.

4    A.     We are told that the missionary was holding onto a

5    Bible and Membertou was holding onto a sacred bundle,

6    "sacred" bundle, not "secret" bundle.

7    Q.     Yes, I notice the transcripts from New Brunswick kept

8    calling your bundle a "secret" bundle rather than a "sacred"

9    bundle.    I hope they get it right in these transcripts.

10   A.     So in this agreement, Membertou and the missionary

11   priest offered each other an exchange, protection to one

12   another.      The missionary priest showing the keys to heaven,

13   that's what they are supposed to represent.

14   Q.     It looks sort of like "Fs" on the belt.

15   A.     Yes.    Accordingly, these were supposed to represent the

16   Vatican, keys to the Vatican in Rome.            The Membertou, the

17   Grand Chief, offered the symbol of peace with the cross,
18   arrows.

19          And there are seven jagged lines here.             The big one

20   represents the Grand Chief and then there are six smaller

21   ones that represent the captains of the seven -- the other

22   Grand Councils, I mean, the other mawiomis.

23          And the figure of an Indian holding onto a bow which

24   symbolizes in the way he's holding onto it that he doesn't


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     4123

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    offer any sense of war or conflict towards the French.               This

2    is a peaceful symbol and that all the seven mawiomis would

3    gather together to protect the French in that same context

4    that the French came.

5           And these other figures are -- more or less present the

6    hieroglyphs that the -- that was asked of me in my

7    qualification.     These are the symbols that are mentioned.

8           The dot over here represents Grandfather Sun and its

9    ray is shining on an individual giving him his shadow.

10          There are men and women that represent a group of

11   people which represent the Mi'kmaq people.               And then for the

12   French, there is a person holding onto a cross where

13   Grandfather Sun is giving him his shadow.

14          And then another group of individuals signifying the

15   men and the women in that society, so it is the French

16   people that had the priest identified individually and the

17   connections and the men and the women represent the families
18   and together they form another group of individuals and they

19   come together as a new group of people under this

20   representation of a building with a cross.               It is a church,

21   the Catholic church.

22          And we are told that the Mi'kmaq, upon accepting the

23   religion, baptism, that they would be able to come in and

24   out of the church as they pleased and that in the church the


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     4124

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    windows would be wide open.         There would be no stained glass

2    windows to stop the Indians from seeing their world alive

3    and well outside, that their spiritual-related connection to

4    that world is still ever present.

5           And in the similar context, Membertou explains that

6    they will bury the hatchet, that they will allow, this is

7    the symbol here on this end is this is a tomahawk and the

8    symbols to bury the tomahawk has been very strong among our

9    societies.    And to bury the tomahawk, they told the French,

10   "We will bury ours first and you put yours on top, so if you

11   take hold of your weapons, then we will have to take hold of

12   ours in our defence and that we would not be the attackers

13   ever in this relationship."

14   Q.     Is the point of the tomahawk any significance to the

15   direction of it?

16   A.     The direction towards Mother Earth is saying that we're

17   burying our weapons in the heart of our mother and that we
18   will not take them up.       So also there is a symbol of a pipe,

19   and I was relate -- explaining the pipe ceremony here and

20   how we bring out the pipe to solemnize our words.               And in

21   this way, this agreement was made and solemnized with a pipe

22   ceremony.    And that is the wampum belt.

23   Q.     So in an overall sense, what is represented by the

24   relationship that's embodied in that belt?


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     4125

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    A.     It's a relationship of protection and respect for one

2    another between the French and the Mi'kmaq Nation.                  And

3    Membertou accepted baptism as a condition of that agreement

4    saying that I will accept the conditions of the church. I

5    will accept the baptism in respect of your culture and your

6    traditions and you will respect mine in the way that we have

7    our sacred bundles and that we survive and exist in this

8    world.

9    Q.     Are you aware of any European documentation in and

10   about 1610 that records this from a French perspective or

11   that represents a treaty or agreement with the French?

12   A.     Marc Lescarbot, who was a lawyer that travelled with

13   Champlain, wrote a letter about this baptism that took place

14   for Membertou who happened to be a very old, old Mi'kmaq

15   chief and was respected by everybody around him and that he

16   was baptised on the Feast of St. Jean Baptiste.

17          Father Biard also wrote about him and a lot of other
18   missionaries wrote about Membertou's baptism as well as

19   other historians like Beamish Murdoch in his three volumes

20   of The History of Nova Scotia makes reference to Membertou's

21   baptism as well as Bernard Hoffman, in his thesis.                  He talks

22   about Membertou's baptism and his relationship.              And there

23   are lots of other publications explaining that as well as, I

24   do believe, [Sagigh?] Henderson also published a book on the


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     4126

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    Mi'kmaq [Concordat?] also explaining the wampum belt then

2    and the Membertou's baptism.

3    Q.     But you were saying there might have been or there was

4    a reverse wampum belt to that that had purple background

5    with white lettering that was presented to the French to the

6    priest?

7    A.     Yes.

8    Q.     Is that recorded anywhere in European documentation?

9    A.     Well, Bushnell writes about the -- that wampum belt and

10   it's in the photograph.        It's the purple background with the

11   white figures on it.       And that's the one that is in the

12   Vatican in Rome.      And the other reserve is -- has been kept

13   among our people, and for many years, whenever a Mi'kmaq

14   chief or part of his family died, pieces of the wampum belt

15   were buried with him and so there will be elements of the

16   wampum belt that have been buried all over Mi'kmagy by our

17   people and has disappeared over the years, yes.
18   MR. WILDSMITH     Okay.    I think that, Your Honour, bring us to

19   the close for the afternoon.

20   THE COURT All right.       When would you suggest that we're

21   likely to get back to Chief Augustine tomorrow?

22   MR. WILDSMITH     I'm hopeful it would be around the morning

23   break.

24   THE COURT Okay.     So is it reasonable to ask come back for 11


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     4127

     CHIEF AUGUSTINE, Direct Exam.

1    or are you available --

2    MR. WILDSMITH     I would think so, although there's no reason

3    why he shouldn't come back for whenever he feels like, at an

4    earlier point.

5    THE COURT All right.       That's fine.      Then we'll -- the court

6    will begin tomorrow morning at 9:30, but we'll be hearing,

7    first of all, from Dr. Wicken, and so you'll have to wait

8    for the conclusion of his evidence before you'll start

9    again.    Okay?   And I should have said this earlier, but, in

10   any case, I just have to tell you that during the course of

11   your testimony, you're not to discuss your evidence with

12   anyone.

13   A.     Yes, Your Honour.

14   THE COURT All right.       That's all then.

15                             WITNESS WITHDRAWS

16   COURT ADJOURNED         (16:40 hr)




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4128




REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE




           I, Margaret E. Graham, Court Reporter, hereby

certify that I have transcribed the foregoing and that it is

a true and accurate transcript of the evidence given in this

matter, taken by way of electronic tape recording.



                               ___________________________

                               Margaret E. Graham




DATED this 2 day of December, 1999, at Dartmouth, Nova
Scotia.




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