VIEWS: 4 PAGES: 22 POSTED ON: 4/30/2010
CITY OF SHAWNEE CITY COUNCIL MEETING OCTOBER 27, 2008 7:30 P.M. Mayor Meyers called the meeting to order at 7:32 p.m. in the Shawnee City Hall Council Chambers. He welcomed the public and all stood and recited the Pledge of Allegiance, followed by a moment of silence. Councilmembers Present Staff Present Councilmember Scott City Manager Gonzales Councilmember Pflumm Assistant City Manager Charlesworth Councilmember Sawyer City Attorney Rainey Councilmember Goode Assistant City Attorney Rainey Councilmember Kuhn City Engineer Wesselschmidt Councilmember Straub Public Works Director Freyermuth Councilmember Sandifer Planning Director Chaffee Councilmember Distler Police Chief Morgan Fire Chief Hudson Finance Director Kidney Parks Superintendent Helwig Information Technologies Director Doherty Stormwater Manager Gregory Members of the public who spoke: (Business from the Floor) RAY ERLICHMAN, 7510 Garnett Street, MARY WHITE, 12715 W. 49 th Terrace, BETTY RHODES, 4929 Parkhill. CONSENT AGENDA 1. APPROVE MINUTES OF THE CITY COUNCIL MEETING OF OCTOBER 13, 2008. 2. REVIEW MINUTES OF THE FINANCE AND ADMINISTRATION COMMITTEE MEETING OF OCTOBER 7, 2008. 3. REVIEW MINUTES OF THE PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING OF OCTOBER 6, 2008. 4. REVIEW MINUTES OF THE BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS MEETING OF SEPTEMBER 18, 2008. 5. CONSIDER RESOLUTION FOR THE ENLARGEMENT OF CONSOLIDATED MAIN SEWER DISTRICT FOR THE VICINITY OF 47TH STREET AND AMINDA (22705 WEST 47TH STREET). Having been adopted, Resolution 1568 was assigned. PAGE 2 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES OCTOBER 27, 2008 6. CONSIDER A RESOLUTION ESTABLISHING AN ACCOUNT IN THE STATE OF KANSAS MUNICIPAL INVESTMENT POOL AND AUTHORIZING ADMINISTRATION BY THE CITY MANAGER, ASSISTANT CITY MANAGER, AND FINANCE DIRECTOR. Having been adopted, Resolution 1569 was assigned. Councilmember Goode, seconded by Councilmember Kuhn, moved to approve the entire Consent Agenda. The motion carried 8-0. MAYOR'S ITEMS 7. RECOGNITION OF EAGLE SCOUT MARK WHEELER FOR HIS WORK ON A CITY PROJECT. Mayor Meyers recognized Cub Scout Pack #3284, Den #2 and Boy Scout Pack #3351. Mayor Meyers recognized the students from the Shawnee Mission Northwest Government class. 8. THE MAYOR MAY PRESENT OTHER ITEMS FOR CONSIDERATION. Mayor Meyers recognized Eagle Scout Mark Wheeler from Troop #93 who successfully completed his Eagle Scout project with an emphasis to educate the public about the need to prevent pollution of the storm drainage system in order to preserve the water quality of the City‟s streams and other aquatic environments. He read a Certificate of Appreciation and presented Mark with a gift of the City‟s appreciation. PUBLIC ITEMS 9. CONSIDER RESOLUTION SETTING PUBLIC HEARING TO CONSIDER COBBLESTONE PROJECT PLAN. Councilmember Scott, seconded by Councilmember Goode, moved to adopt a resolution providing for notice of a public hearing on December 8, 2008 at Shawnee City Hall, providing for the consideration of a redevelopment project plan. The motion carried 8-0. Having been adopted, Resolution 1570 was assigned. 10. PETITION TO VACATE PUBLIC RIGHT-OF-WAY FOR THE ALLEY IN BLOCK 37, ORIGINAL TOWN OF SHAWNEE (SAV-08-006). Councilmember Goode, seconded by Councilmember Sawyer, moved to conduct a public hearing on the petition to vacate public right-of-way for the alley in Block 37, Original Town of Shawnee (SAV-08-006). The motion carried 8-0. PAGE 3 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES OCTOBER 27, 2008 City Engineer Wesselschmidt stated Mr. Thomas Roberts presented a petition to the City which is now before the Governing Body requesting the vacation of the alley in the original town plat of Shawnee, Block 37. He stated this is more specifically in a block bounded by 59th Street on the north side, 59 th Terrace on the south side, Barton on the west and Nieman Road on the east. He stated that would be the block that includes Donovan‟s Service Station with which most everyone is familiar. City Engineer Wesselschmidt stated the petitioners state that the alley vacation is needed for a commercial restaurant building that Mr. Roberts is planning to build on his property. He stated that Mr. Roberts has not yet submitted application for approval for site plan for this proposed development. He stated the petition was signed by all property owners adjacent to the proposed alley vacation. City Engineer Wesselschmidt stated that while the right-of-way may have been open in the past, it is not currently improved as a roadway, nor do any of the adjoining property owners use the right-of-way or alley for access. He stated a Notice of Public Hearing was published in the City‟s official newspaper on Wednesday, October 1, 2008. He stated as of this date, the City Clerk has not received any inquiries or written objections. City Engineer Wesselschmidt stated a notice that was written was sent to the utilities that serve this area regarding the proposed vacation and as of this time, the only utility that indicated they have facilities in that area are AT&T/Southwestern Bell who have facilities in that proposed alley vacation and would request that a utility easement be retained to cover their facilities. City Engineer Wesselschmidt stated in reviewing this petition, staff has found that subject to reservation of a public utility easement, no private rights will be injured or endangered by granting the vacation, that the public will suffer no loss or inconvenience by such vacation, and that in justice to the petitioners the vacation should be granted. He stated staff recommends granting the petitioner‟s request to vacate the alley. Councilmember Sawyer, seconded by Councilmember Pflumm, moved to conclude the public hearing on the petition to vacate public right-of-way for the alley in Block 37, Original Town of Shawnee (SAV-08-006). The motion carried 8-0. Councilmember Sawyer, seconded by Councilmember Sandifer, moved to pass an ordinance ordering the vacation of public right-of-way for the alley in Block 37, Original Town of Shawnee (SAV-08-006). The motion carried 8-0. Having passed, Ordinance 2918 was assigned. COUNCIL ITEMS ITEMS FROM THE FINANCE & ADMINISTRATION COMMITTEE MEETING OF OCTOBER 07, 2008 11. CONSIDER THE 2009 - 2014 CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PLAN (CIP). PAGE 4 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES OCTOBER 27, 2008 Councilmember Pflumm stated that the Committee discussed the updated CIP based on the 2009 Budget and the financial forecast of all funds. The Committee also discussed Midland Drive, Barker to I-435. Councilmember Straub stated there were questions on the different options for Midland Drive. He stated most of them either say they are eligible or not eligible for funds, but Option #2 does not state whether or not it is eligible for outside funding sources. He stated it would be a 10 foot multi purpose trail. He stated it looks like the other ones that are eligible are a 10 foot shoulder on one side for pedestrians and cyclists, so Option #4 and Option #2 seem to be similar. City Engineer Wesselschmidt stated Option #2, since it indicates a multi purpose trail in a permanent location, would certainly be more likely to receive some type of grant money, if grant money was available than an option that would be temporary such as a paved shoulder. Councilmember Straub asked if it would be able to be outside sources most likely. City Engineer Wesselschmidt replied it would be similar to some of the funding the City has received for the Clear Creek Trail, Stump Park Trail, and Gamblin Park Trail. Councilmember Straub stated it is an 80/20 on most of those he believes. City Engineer Wesselschmidt stated they are eligible up to 80/20 if there is enough money and that is the maximum amount they can be funded. Councilmember Straub stated both of them for Clear Creek got 80/20. City Engineer Wesselschmidt stated some of the more recent ones are trying to spread that money out around the state and take the same amount of money and put it on more trails throughout the state, so even though those projects are eligible up to 80/20, some agencies are not quite getting that amount. He stated it is subject to what funding is available in the future and the number of worthy projects out there. Councilmember Straub asked if Clear Creek, both this year‟s and next year‟s, go the 80/20. Parks and Recreation Director Holman replied the one they are doing now is 80/20. He stated the one from Monticello to Woodland is a 70/30. Councilmember Straub stated even if the City got a 50/50, that is still good because it is a permanent trail. He stated he is sure part of this cost of the $2.7 is also part of the road easements they will have to get – the right-of-ways. He stated it is actually land the City will have to purchase anyway. He knows there is a cost to put the trail, but there will be a cost whether the City expands the road or not down the road. PAGE 5 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES OCTOBER 27, 2008 City Engineer Wesselschmidt stated the estimate for that particular option includes trying to make it a permanent trail and a permanent fill for that permanent trail right-of-way, and some storm drainage improvements, so those would be some costs that would lower a full Midland Drive project at some point in the future. Councilmember Straub stated that is right, so he does not understand why they would not at least try to put that out to those others to see if they can get it in the future. He stated he is not sure what trails systems are lined up for the next few years. He stated he knows they have Clear Creek for the next two years, but does not know what other trails are scheduled for 2011 and 2012. City Engineer Wesselschmidt stated the project currently under construction will go along Clear Creek from K7 to Monticello. He stated they have funding to go from Monticello to basically Woodland. He stated the desire at the City level, as well as the County level, would be to get that third piece in place which would go from Woodland to the County Mill Creek streamway trail. Councilmember Straub stated that is this year, next year, and 2010. He asked if they have a project set at this point for 2011 and could they look to do that at that time. He stated that he would think the Midland trail would be used a lot more, at this point, than the Clear Creek Trail, but understands they are doing those two so it makes sense to continue that trail. City Engineer Wesselschmidt stated those particular funding sources for both of the Clear Creek trail projects are federal highway funds. He stated the federal highway plan in future years is not in place, so certainly that funding program needs to be put together at the federal level and then they will see how much of that comes down to the various states and to the Mid American Regional Council (MARC) and then the City makes that funding at that point. Councilmember Straub asked if the City could at least plan or look into that so they do not just sweep it under the rug and then are asking themselves in two years what their next project is. He stated they all agree that it is a very used trail. He stated he drives down that street all the time and there are bikes and runners going up that street a lot. City Engineer Wesselschmidt stated certainly with discussions such as this, what shows up on the CIP . . . Councilmember Straub interjected that this is not on the City‟s capital improvement plan. City Engineer Wesselschmidt stated even discussions about needed projects, is what staff takes into account when they receive that application from KDOT, the Feds, or MARC, saying they have this funding out here and are accepting applications. He stated they would then take all that into account and come up with some ideas of what they would PAGE 6 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES OCTOBER 27, 2008 like to apply for funding and then bring those before the Council to get their concurrence before actually making that application. Councilmember Straub stated he thinks it would be a win/win if they got 70/30 on this deal and are buying right-of-way with part of those funds. He stated it will be a win/win/ win to get this in ahead of time, whether they do this street three years from now or 10 years from now. Councilmember Straub stated he thinks if they did the trail, the street would be a lot more functional as it is, so he is glad Councilmember Pflumm brought up this discussion. He stated this is already a dangerous road and have already had one pedestrian killed on that road. He stated maybe if there was a trail he would not have been there, he does not know. He stated he likes the idea that Councilmember Pflumm came up with of naming the trail after that individual. City Engineer Wesselschmidt stated the staff, and this is probably the third year, have presented a CIP to the Council that is basically funded every year. He stated with some of the years in the past the next three years are funded, but the remaining years are somewhat of a wish list. He stated this year and the last two years they want to bring a completely funded CIP to the Council, as well as to the citizens. He stated this trail or anything else on Midland is not presently shown on there and in order to add that on essentially something needs to come off. Councilmember Straub asked if they can add it as a wish list and see what happens, as they used to do that. City Engineer Wesselschmidt stated that is what he is saying, they used to do that. He stated it provided a list to where if some extra money happened to show up out there, that would be what they wanted to spend it on. He stated he also gave them some problems with property owners on those streets, because there were projects that had been on the five year CIP for 10 or 15 years because they were always on the out year. He stated that based on the information they have received over the previous two years, and this year, they can have a funded plan out there that is based on funding projections. City Engineer Wesselschmidt stated priorities are going to change from year to year. If they get a lot of development along Renner, Renner might jump up, but if they hold off some it may stay off. He stated they can at least review it annually. Councilmember Straub stated he appreciates that, but if they could get a 70/30 on this and are basically getting that trail and instead of $2.7 million it is closer to $800,000, it would be a nice addition to the whole trail system throughout the County and would be a win/win with the County and City, connecting a lot of trail systems together. He stated he thinks they should put this on the CIP and try to figure it out if they have $800,000 if they get a 70/30, but if they do not get a 70/30 they may get an 80/20 or a 60/40. He stated at that point, they can add it on or take it off. PAGE 7 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES OCTOBER 27, 2008 Councilmember Straub stated if someone is going to give the City 50%, 60%, 70%, or 80% of the money for the County or State or wherever they get the funding, he thinks it is a no-brainer to put a trail system in for the City that would connect that many. He stated that is basically all he has to say on the whole thing. Councilmember Sandifer stated with the budget the way it is, he can not see where the City could crunch anything anywhere to even acknowledge this project at this time. Councilmember Sandifer stated this is in his ward and he has been door-to-door with these people. He stated anyone who is trying to put a trail in right next to the road at the moment is probably 75/25 with 75% of the people he has talked to about this being against it at the moment and do not want it. He stated they do not want the road or trails closer to their houses. He stated to put a trail out by the creek and to do an easement and everything else, and he thinks it does sound nice and is not against having the trail going out through there, but he is against the timing for it because right now the City is having a hard time. He stated the City would have to take money away from overlaying some of their roads or doing anything at the moment to do any type of work like this. He stated the City streets are more important than a trail at this moment in time, at least in his opinion. Councilmember Pflumm asked City Engineer Wesselschmidt if Option #2 is really the option down by the creek. City Engineer Wesselschmidt answered no. He stated Option #2 was basically grading out to the permanent right-of-way width, whether that is beyond the south side or the north side, but thinks the staff has always looked at the south side which would be closer to the creek and some of the County park. City Engineer Wesselschmidt stated there was also an Option #5 in the PowerPoint presentation, which was a multi-use trail down by the creek. Councilmember Pflumm stated that was with five foot shoulders. City Engineer Wesselschmidt stated that is one section right next to the golf course where they unfortunately can not get right along the creek so yes, that would be five foot shoulders in that area once they get down to Ogg Road, having it go along the creek to Knights of Columbus Park. Councilmember Pflumm stated he would like to comment on the overall CIP. He stated just with the economic times they are all in right now, more than what they think would be wish list in the present day, so just because it is on the CIP does not mean they will be able to afford it in the future. Mayor Meyers stated that is always correct. PAGE 8 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES OCTOBER 27, 2008 City Engineer Wesselschmidt stated to follow up, he would emphasize the paragraph crafted by Finance Director Kidney regarding the fact that this is based on economic projections and sales tax projections at this time. He stated the staff will need to continue to monitor that to see if it is coming in and certainly less than that they would need to make some adjustments, even to this plan. Councilmember Goode stated at this point in time he does not think they can visualize what is going to happen as far as what the City is going into this fall, as far as grants are concerned, because they do not know that right now. He stated the grant situation in the next four or five years may be more liberal and easier to obtain than they ever have had the opportunity to apply for before. He stated as far as he is concerned, he is in no hurry to push anything at this point in time, but is looking forward to a drastic change in this type of funding and thinks they should be looking for that when it comes about. Councilmember Goode, seconded by Councilmember Scott, moved to approve the 2009- 2014 Capital Improvement Plan. The motion carried 8-0. BUSINESS FROM THE FLOOR a) TIF Districts. RAY ERLICHMAN, 7510 Garnett Street, stated at the past couple of Council meetings they have had some items brought up regarding TIF districts. He stated after reading the Kansas City Star last week, there was an article by Hearne Christopher that stood out. He stated the article was short for Mr. Christopher and he just wanted to get it into tonight‟s meeting. He stated it is unusual for Mr. Christopher to comment on these kinds of things because he is classified as an entertainment correspondent and not a political analyst. Merriam Mall Trying to Land a Tenant RAY ERLICHMAN stated he will not read the whole article, even though it is short, but it boils down to the fact that the City of Merriam, Kansas passed a TIF to finance this new mall. He stated he believes everyone knows Councilmember Leep, who is somewhat of a maverick in the City of Merriam but he refers to this mall as the Great Wall of China in Merriam paid for by the taxpayers. RAY ERLICHMAN stated this mall only wound up with one tenant – Circuit City and that tenant has stopped construction or the finish of the construction because they do not know what they are going to do. He stated they now have this whole mall area empty and vacant with no tenants whatsoever. He stated Mr. Leep makes a comment that they had to buy out approximately 58 houses and/or five or six different businesses which still could have been paying taxes to the City of Merriam. PAGE 9 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES OCTOBER 27, 2008 RAY ERLICHMAN stated he brings this up because there has been a lot of talk about everything from the CIP to other things and people are bringing up the current budget situation in these discussions. He stated that he thinks the Council has to be a little more cautious in any type of tax abatement or TIF district at this point in time. RAY ERLICHMAN stated one thing that struck him at the last meeting was the comment that one of the projects would bring in 68 jobs to the City of Shawnee. He stated that in itself is a pretty good number, considering the size of Shawnee. He stated if they go back to where he grew up in New York City, 68 people are like one floor in an apartment building. RAY ERLICHMAN stated about a year and a half ago he made a suggestion, which he was later told was actually illegal, to require businesses to require a certain number of jobs based on people moving into town. He stated he followed that up with the statement that it would be nice if they could have just found out that information without making it a requirement – how many of these new jobs were actually creating new residents in the City of Shawnee. RAY ERLICHMAN stated referring back to this TIF project, 68 new jobs would be great but wonders if they would be 68 new people or families coming to live here in town, or just one, or two, or maybe three. He asked what kind of money these people would be spending in town. He stated most of the employees who work in these healthcare centers, and noted that he has quite a bit of experience with these places do not even go out to lunch. He stated they do not patronize the local restaurants because they get the benefit of working in a place that houses a full kitchen and get to pay less than they would at a fast food restaurant for a full meal when they are there. RAY ERLICHMAN stated he thinks the City needs to start looking a lot closer at some of these TIFs and tax abatement areas, with regards to will they really be viable, or will the City end up with something like the Great Wall of China in Merriam and will they actually be creating more residents in the City that will be spending money in other areas, or will these people strictly be commuters into Shawnee and not contribute to the city as a whole, while the City is giving up money to the developer. b) Trail in Heather Glen Subdivision. MARY WHITE, 12715 W. 49 th Terrace, asked for the councilmember who represents Heather Glen and then asked if really all of the councilmembers represent Heather Glen. She stated when she was here the last time, she talked about a change in the scope of amenities being offered to those of them who live in Heather Glen and bought property, while a different amenity was dangled before them. PAGE 10 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES OCTOBER 27, 2008 MARY WHITE stated Planning Director Chaffee said that he could not tell the developer what amenities to provide, but on the other hand if they look at it from her perspective, the developer told Mr. Chaffee or whoever the Planning Commission was at the time, what he would provide at the time the development began. She stated people bought homes with that in mind and now it is changed. MARY WHITE stated it is interesting when the Council was talking about vacating a right-of-way, because they were concerned about the impact on the neighbors. She stated no concern has been expressed for the neighbors of the right-of-way that it will not be built or if it will be built. She stated to her, it looks as if the new amenities serve only one purpose and that is to help the developers sell the one lot that he now has listed at $150,000, because that is the only one that will benefit from it. MARY WHITE stated she thinks it would be appropriate for the Council to consider changing their ways to require a developer to give the amenity that is in place at the time the first home is sold and compel him to build that amenity without change. Mayor Meyers stated he knows that was something that was brought up and does not know if they got any answers or if that is legally binding to a developer or if it is something that the City could actually require. He asked Planning Director Chaffee to elaborate. Planning Director Chaffee explained the status, in that the Planning Department contacted Mr. Lambie, or Mr. Lambie‟s engineer, to have him review what they are going to do and when they are going to do it and look at the size of the trail to see if it is comparable in size to what he had initially indicated to developers to do. Planning Director Chaffee stated the Councilmembers are all aware that the City does not basically tell private developers how to do their business. He stated that developers give the City an indication of what they may or may not want to do. Planning Director Chaffee stated some of the problems that happen along the way, and this certainly deals with more substantial improvements other than a trail system, but even in Forest Park Estates they have the trail system and it did not work out and they ended up going with some sidewalks, where Heather Glen has both sidewalks and a trail as an amenity. Planning Director Chaffee stated with swimming pools it is difficult for a developer to go in and build a swimming pool and expect it to be maintained. He stated in the first plat, there may be 15 property owners who are trying to make payments to maintain the pool and do those kinds of things. He stated amenities frequently happen at a later date. PAGE 11 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES OCTOBER 27, 2008 Planning Director Chaffee stated, as he indicated at the last meeting, the amenities that Mr. Lambie provides in Heather Glen will have to be completed before the last building permit is issued to assure that it does get complete. Planning Director Chaffee stated at the last meeting, there was a comment about another tract of land that was not adjacent to the first tract of land that was deeded in the first plat and what the additional tract that Mr. Lambie provided in the plat was for the monument sign at the northeast corner of 51 st Street and, he believes, Parkhill, which is not uncommon that the ground around the monument sign would go to the homes association as they can maintain it, plant it, and go on with that property to do what they need to do such as mow around it, rather it being on a property owner‟s property and the homes association coming back at a later date. He stated the City has seen this happen in some of the older subdivisions, saying it is on [your] property and [we] are not going to maintain it, so an additional tract was provided at the corner of the last plat for the monument sign. Planning Director Chaffee stated they have not returned the call, but he has let them know that it is important that they find out at that time. He stated they do have Mrs. White‟s phone number and he believes the Planning Department has been working with another person with the homes association so he can relay that information. He stated that probably the City‟s comment back to them, after they see what they want to do, is advise them that it is probably in their best interest to meet with the homes association to go over any modifications or changes they want to do and work it out amongst themselves. Mayor Meyers asked if it would be something that would be legally binding of the Council. Councilmember Kuhn stated she is not saying that they should not have to do a trail system, but when a developer sells two lots and someone asked if they can move it [this way or that], she worries about the City becoming very involved in the micromanagement of what more or less is a private contract between whoever buys which lot. Councilmember Kuhn stated she will speak personally on this, and certainly holds the highest regard for the family who built her subdivision, but she darn well knows they told her the pool was going in the year she moved in and would go in just down the street from her house. She stated it actually went in three years later over in the other subdivision. She stated that is somewhat of a „buyer beware‟ situation and something she guesses she should have had written in the contract, but does not think that the City is due to enforce where her pool ended up. Planning Director Chaffee stated he thinks in this situation it was about getting a measurement on how long the walking trail was initially and just sketching it out and having it shown on the tract on the eastern side of Parkhill. He stated that he PAGE 12 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES OCTOBER 27, 2008 has done a sketch for an alternate plan that does show a walking trail and he is not trying to get rid of the walking trail and has visited with him to say if they are 50 feet short, is there something they can do to add another 50 feet or are they basically there or running into obstacles where they can not do something. Planning Director Chaffee stated he does not believe in any situation that the developer has said he had no intention of doing anything at all. Mayor Meyers thanked Mrs. White for her comment. BETTY RHODES, 4929 Parkhill, stated she lives in Heather Glen. She stated the amenity as perceived, the last one of the walking trail, is about one-fourth the distance that the walking trail was to be originally. She stated she would hope that the City Council would hold these developers responsible for doing something that they initially said they were going to do. BETTY RHODES stated she feels that they are not fully representative and do not have anyone except the City Council to be responsible for them, because they do not have a voice. She stated they are not yet a homes association because the developer still owns some of the lots. She stated they do not have any recourse, except for the City Council and hopes they really think about that. BETTY RHODES stated just like Councilmember Sawyer said earlier, she thinks the City should be responsible to make the developers do what they initially say they are going to do. She thanked the Council for their time. Councilmember Distler asked why that is so difficult to enforce. She stated the City enforces where the fire hydrants and storm drains are located and the distances from the house to the road. City Attorney Rainey stated the building permits are really occupancy permits withholding building permits and withholding occupancy permits are the simplest and easiest and most common way of enforcing them. He stated if they are not selling any houses or units anyway or if they have financial difficulty, that may not get anything accomplished, but that is usually the first step. City Attorney Rainey stated usually if a developer is not doing what they originally said they were going to do, it is because of financial issues or other matters. He stated in those cases, it becomes difficult to enforce them. Councilmember Sawyer stated the developers come in here wanting approval for smaller lots and are going to do all these things. He stated the developers throw out a plan and he did not have them throw them out, but Planning Director Chaffee told them what they had to do, the requirements for zoning, to get these smaller lots. He stated he does not see the issue here. He stated if the developers want smaller lots, the theory is they make more money off the end deal and that is PAGE 13 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES OCTOBER 27, 2008 great, because the City gets more houses, but now they should have to do what they said they were going to do and that is where he gets so frustrated with this issue. Councilmember Sawyer stated the developers all come up here and says they are going to do this, this, and this, but then years later they just say they don‟t want to do those things anymore. He stated without naming names, he can think of one developer right now that this Council caved on because the guy made the agreement that that is what he would do and then something else came along and he now wants to do something different. He stated this Council caved and said, “Okay, you don‟t have to live by your word”. He stated that he did not make the word, as the developers make the word. Councilmember Kuhn asked Planning Director Chaffee, because she agrees with Councilmember Sawyer and thinks the City should hold the developer accountable who says they are going to do something in order to get something, but does not think she was here for one of the references, but going back to that she agrees. She stated her understanding of the way their zoning request for that goes, is that if they come in and ask for that special zoning in order to have smaller lots, the City does not say to them they have to bring forward „this plan‟ and each of their lots has to be exactly where they told them it would be and every trail has to be exactly where they told them it would be and every fire hydrant has to be exactly where they told them it would be. She stated the City said to the developer that in order to qualify for these smaller lots they must provide amenities and showed them the list of amenities that qualify. Councilmember Kuhn stated the City asks the developer to give them a list of ideas of the things they think they are going to do. She stated the developers give them an idea of what they think they are going to do and can come back based on either homeowners association discussions, change in the developer, change in the buying habits of the public, however it comes up be it fair or not, but they can come back and say that [this] did not work out for whatever reason, but are replacing one amenity with another and meeting what the City told them they had to do. Planning Director Chaffee stated Councilmember Kuhn is pretty much correct. He stated the other thing the developer is required to do in planned single family, is they have to plat open space into a normal subdivision and is not any kind of requirement. He stated there is a percentage amount that has to be provided and then they go back in and look at if the standard R1 zoning district is a 9,000 square foot lot and this lot is 6,500 square feet, then that calculates into at least 2,500 square feet of open space and do that on a lot-by-lot-by-lot basis. He stated that determines how much open space they are required to plat and set aside so it is not all in a lot like those who live in traditional R1, RS, RE subdivisions are required to provide. PAGE 14 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES OCTOBER 27, 2008 Planning Director Chaffee stated in some situations a developer did not even necessarily say „These are the amenities I am going to provide‟ and just set aside the open space and then come back at a later time and make some type of improvements. He stated sometimes it may be that the City just wants to get land for their streamway park system and get that dedication of land and have it set aside. Planning Director Chaffee used the example of a case over in Gray Oaks where some of the ground was set aside and went from Monticello Road over to K7 Highway. He stated the developer was not required to put in a trail and the City knew they were going to put in a trail at a later date. He stated that that particular ground was zoned planned single family and they did not have to buy that ground and the land was donated through the rezoning and platting process for that development. He stated they have a swimming pool area up in Gray Oaks and sort of moved the location from where they thought it was first going to be up on Monticello Road to over in Woodsonia, sort of more in the middle of the subdivision. Councilmember Kuhn asked as far as holding them accountable, if they are going to have a conversation as to whether or not they are going to change the rules that is fine, but the rules as far as what the City gave them when they said „Here is what you have to do‟ and „This is what you have to give us‟, so they are planning to or intending to hold them accountable to the fact that they had it to build and here is their list of amenities that the City told them in the beginning were acceptable and they said they were going to build a trail, so they want equal for equal. Councilmember Kuhn stated they want to know how many square feet was on what they drew out for them. She stated they want to know what they are trading for, so it is equivalent to if not the same, and tell the City how they are going to make it different. Planning Director Chaffee stated that is correct, asking them if they are making the trail a little shorter, but in return doing a pavilion. Planning Director Chaffee stated he feels the need to make the point, just so it is out there on record, that Mr. Lambie has not told anyone that it is his intent to walk away and not provide any amenity. He stated it is Mr. Lambie‟s intent to still provide a walking trail and some other items. He stated Mr. Lambie has visited with the Planning Department about this and he has not spoken personally with Mr. Lambie about this. He stated that he wants everyone to understand that Mr. Lambie is not telling the residents or anyone else that he is walking away and not doing what he said he was going to do. Planning Director Chaffee stated it may be a different configuration than before and that is why the Planning Department has had the discussion to figure out how PAGE 15 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES OCTOBER 27, 2008 long that trail showed on the east side of Parkhill going up in that area and how many feet different is it and then go from there. Councilmember Straub stated maybe he does not understand the scenario, but he thought when someone plats something they are saying „this is what is going to be here and this is my property line for Lot 1, and here is my property line for Lot 2, and this is my plat for where I am going to put open ground, and this is my detention basin, this is the ground I am actually going to donate to the City‟, so they usually have a full plat outlining things. Councilmember Straub stated he agrees with Councilmember Sawyer in that he does not understand if they said they were going to put a trail „here‟, then they put a trail „there‟, it sounds like, at least from the residents and he is not specifically talking about Heather Glen as there are other subdivisions and are future subdivisions so he would probably support a motion from Councilmember Sawyer if he wanted to change it, because he has been on the Planning Commission and knows more about it than he does. Councilmember Straub stated he does not know why they cannot hold these people accountable. He stated he knows with the subdivision he did, he was pretty much held accountable. He stated if the developer wants to change it, then they have to come in front of the Planning Commission and possibly the Council, sometimes they do and sometimes the don‟t depending on the change, but the residents have already purchased under the assumption of the diagram they saw and the design they saw, so they are in a position to say they bought with „apples‟ and now they are going to get „oranges‟. He stated maybe the apples and oranges are equal in value. Councilmember Straub stated he is okay with the way the rules are today. He stated he is also okay at looking at modifying the rules so when someone does a drawing and unless they do change it give notice to all the residents and say they are changing [this] and want them all to know that they are going in front of the Planning Commission to change it. Councilmember Straub stated if there are 10 homeowners there, then there are 10 homeowners there and they can get into discussions with them. He stated there may be 150 homeowners there depending on the size of the community and it is all worked out together instead of a developer saying they were going to do [this] and is what the homeowners approved, but as long as the can bring them something they are okay. Councilmember Straub stated that is kind of what he thinks he is hearing it is. He stated that it does not sit very well with him if that is the way it has to be. Planning Director Chaffee stated a preliminary plat is a preliminary plat. He stated preliminary development plans are preliminary development plans. PAGE 16 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES OCTOBER 27, 2008 Councilmember Straub stated part of it was completely platted, because someone can not build without a full plat. Planning Director Chaffee stated that is correct, the developer comes in and plats the ground off their final plats, but that is not the time the developer is saying what kinds of amenities they want to do. Councilmember Straub stated when he did his plat they had it all done on the preliminary and said what they were going to do. Planning Director Chaffee stated that is correct and Councilmember Straub followed through and did his early. He stated the City appreciates those kinds of things, but some developers do not do it up front. Councilmember Straub stated if he bought a house and was expecting to have a trail behind his house or not have one and that is what he wanted and then it comes up that it was changed – that is what he is talking about. He stated he knows the developers do the Topo maps and knows they know what the grade is and other things. Planning Director Chaffee stated that is why when they get the information from Mr. Lambie, the Planning Department will advise him to visit with the residents and let them know what he is doing. Councilmember Straub stated that is under the rules the City has had and he is fine with whatever happens there, but he is also fine with looking at changing it so this does not happen again down the road. He stated there is not that much ground left in Shawnee to develop. Planning Director Chaffee stated the staff is looking to redo the zoning ordinance and that is certainly something they could add in, where if a developer says they are going to do something „right in a specific place‟, then they will not be granted any changes. Councilmember Straub stated they could change it to read that way, unless the developer comes to the City for approval. He stated the developers can change anything they want as long as they get consensus. Planning Director Chaffee stated they can certainly write that in. Councilmember Sawyer asked when this was platted. Planning Director Chaffee replied that he would guess the preliminary was probably in about 2002 to 2003. He stated it has been final platted over a period of time. PAGE 17 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES OCTOBER 27, 2008 Councilmember Sawyer stated he was on the Planning Commission in 1996 until around 2000. He asked if the Planning Commission at that time, and thinks it moved forward to the Council and does not remember what they called it, but they were having difficulty with developers giving them green space, but it was the creek. He stated everyone thought they were really nice because they were getting all this green space, but after they went out there and checked things out they realized it was the creek. Councilmember Sawyer stated some type of change was made that added some amenities. He stated that he thinks they always had a plan that the developer had to submit that had it drawn on there. He stated when he was on the Planning Commission, and maybe he was naïve and obviously so, he thought that was what they were going to do and it looked good to him and was something he could live with. Councilmember Sawyer stated now they are telling him that amenities are there, but really the developer can pretty much do whatever they want. He stated he did not understand it to be that way. Planning Director Chaffee stated at the time, they inserted some verbiage that said if a developer proposes to donate land to the City for a city park, for the City to even consider it, it had to be something useable or something that they wanted. He stated they could not just come in and try to give the City something for the sake of giving them something hoping that they would get a reduction in their park fees or possibly be excluded from the excise tax. He stated they made sure the land was something the City could really use and met the needs of the City. He stated that was the modification that was made at that time. Councilmember Scott asked if a developer wants to trade out an amenity, who then in the City has the final approval. Planning Director Chaffee replied it would come to staff first and they would look at it and if it was something substantial, the Planning Commission would review it and make their final recommendation. Councilmember Sawyer asked if the Planning Commission goes back and talks to the citizens who are already living there. Planning Director Chaffee stated the Planning Commission always suggests they do that – certainly. Councilmember Sawyer asked if the City sends out notices. Planning Director Chaffee answered no, because the City does not get involved in the developer‟s and the homes association‟s affairs. PAGE 18 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES OCTOBER 27, 2008 MISCELLANEOUS ITEMS 12. CONSIDER APPROVAL OF SEMI-MONTHLY CLAIM FOR OCTOBER 27, 2008, IN THE AMOUNT OF $2,193,004.58. Councilmember Scott, seconded by Councilmember Pflumm, moved to approve the semi-monthly claim for October 27, 2008, in the amount of $2,193,004.58. Councilmember Straub stated he is going to vote NO on this again because of the travel expenses. He stated everyone keeps talking about how tight the City‟s budget is and how this is a year where they are cutting back. He stated he would like to ask the Council people if they do go on trips and learn things, that they actually come back and share it with the other councilmembers because there are several councilmembers going on these trips. He stated if they actually learn something, they could come back and share those things with the people who do not go on these trips. Councilmember Straub stated he would also like to request that they actually have someone look at their expenses and do some type of managerial audit or something to find out where they can maybe shave some monies from the expenses, because everyone knows the budget is getting tighter and tighter. He stated in looking at these expense reports, he does not see where the Council has cut back a lot. He stated maybe they could have someone who is a non-City employee tell them they need to cut X, Y, and Z to help the City save some money so they do not get in a bind and have to raise taxes again next year. Councilmember Kuhn stated she guesses it would be very apropos that Councilmember Straub again was voting NO on the budget based on travel when she actually had prepared something in regards to Council travel. Therefore the motion read: Councilmember Scott, seconded by Councilmember Pflumm, moved to approve the semi-monthly claim for October 27, 2008, in the amount of $2,193,004.58. The motion carried 7-1, with Councilmembers Scott, Pflumm, Sawyer, Goode, Kuhn, Sandifer, and Distler voting aye and Councilmember Straub voting nay. 13. MISCELLANEOUS COUNCIL ITEMS. a) Recent Trip – Kansas League of Municipalities. Councilmember Kuhn stated that hopefully this report will make Councilmember Straub feel more comfortable with some of the expenditures made by the Council. She stated she recently had the opportunity to represent Shawnee, along with Assistant City Manager Charlesworth, at the Kansas League of Municipalities in Wichita, Kansas. PAGE 19 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES OCTOBER 27, 2008 Councilmember Kuhn stated one thing they have talked about is the number of things they have to balance, how, and what they should be at in order to gain enough information and education to benefit the City and which were not, and whether or not they needed the remainder of the Council to make those decisions. She stated that she decided it would be important to bring back some of the things that she had heard at this conference, that they would as a city not have been able to avail themselves to. She stated the things she would have asked staff to look into offline and come back on are opportunities that they have coming from this. Councilmember Kuhn stated she had the opportunity and has been appointed and sits on the State‟s Legislative Policy Committee for the League of Kansas Municipalities. She stated the League State Legislative Program includes all the positions that are favorable to the City in dealing with the State‟s transportation, water and energy, home rules, public health, safety, municipal finance – all areas that cities would find interest in and hopefully be advocated by the municipal league. She stated that she had an opportunity to sit on that policy committee and help be involved in forming the policies that are now being sent to the State asking to advocate positions that will hopefully benefit the City of Shawnee as well. Councilmember Kuhn stated she also had an opportunity to attend a session while she was at the conference that dealt with recent changes in the Kansas Open Meetings Act. She stated she thinks it is very important that they, as councilmembers, are very familiar with those provisions of the law especially because these new changes do directly impact the City of Shawnee. Councilmember Kuhn stated at a number of meetings in the past, she has heard accusations regarding how things may have been outside what would have been legal and what would not have been legal. She stated she had an opportunity to really get a good grasp on how carefully they have been able to stay well within those laws and learn what exactly they should be doing. Councilmember Kuhn stated she would ask staff to put together some sort of a presentation for a future committee meeting that would help update all of the councilmembers on the Open Meetings Act. She asked that the presentation include those new changes. Councilmember Kuhn stated there were a couple other sessions that she thought was very relevant and interesting for the City of Shawnee. She stated one was for a Facilities Conservation Improvement Program which is something some of their neighboring cities have had the opportunities to take advantage of. She stated she has learned that the State has a number of pre-approved energy service companies that will help them inspect their public buildings, such as City Hall, the fire station, and the previous safety center where they had some discussion at the last meeting about needs. She stated it helps identify areas in which energy efficiency PAGE 20 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES OCTOBER 27, 2008 can be improved, where the State has grants, and where public utilities have grants to help the cities become more energy efficient and greener outside of just basic programming. Councilmember Kuhn stated at times, some upfront do come with these programs but the KCC has found that these agencies they have used have experienced reductions to city costs between 15-35% for their utility bills. She stated having discussed the City‟s needs to watch their spending, she thinks looking at some areas where they can match or want to be green and their need to save money might be a real benefit, especially because at this meeting she learned that there is a way to begin this process with absolutely no cost to the City where they can find out if it is something that actually is a good match for them and one they would want to move forward on. Councilmember Kuhn stated she knows Assistant City Manager Charlesworth had a chance to attend a similar seminar and gained a lot of knowledge. She asked staff to use their sustainable committee, which already exists and have been working towards a number of green initiatives, to maybe gather more information on this and see if it might be something worth moving forward on. Councilmember Kuhn stated the last area she would like to mention, is something that she thinks is near and dear to her ward-mate - Recycling. She stated there was a great seminar she attended dealing with recycling start-up programs and changes in existing programs. Councilmember Kuhn stated the one seminar she was very interested in was specific to the City of El Dorado, Kansas. She restated that had she not had the chance to attend conference, she would have never met the Assistant Director of the El Dorado Kansas Public Works Department. She stated that she can not say they move in the same circles and certainly does not know where, outside of the Kansas League of Municipalities, they would have ever had a chance to sit down and converse about recycling programs. Councilmember Kuhn stated she had a great chance to gain some insight from this person as to what they did when they began something very similar to Shawnee‟s parks recycling program. She stated she got to hear about some of their challenges on getting people to participate. She stated she heard about great ways where they began in a small area and expanded throughout their entire city. She stated she heard about some of the benefits they had to the recycling containers they chose; the ones that did not work so well in the beginning and the ones that are working very well now and how they had a very significant increase not only in participation, but a significant decrease in the number of contaminated containers they had, which is something this city has talked about in trying to get their recycling program expanded in parks and what the right thing is to do and how they can best use the City‟s resources and funds they need to watch very carefully and getting the most bang for their buck. PAGE 21 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES OCTOBER 27, 2008 Councilmember Kuhn sated she had a great conversation with this person from El Dorado and wanted to pass on this information to Parks and Recreation Director Holman first off and then obviously to the Parks and Recreation people who are working on Shawnee‟s recycling program. Councilmember Kuhn asked the staff to get in touch with this gentleman from El Dorado who had a couple other resources. She thinks they will find this information absolutely priceless where the City could actually save some lost dollars finding out from their mistakes in the beginning and what Shawnee could do better right up front. She has that gentleman‟s card and contact information and will provide it to Parks and Recreation Director Holman. Hopefully the City can gain some valuable information from those discussions. Councilmember Kuhn stated there were a number of other really great people that she got to meet at the conference. She stated she had some wonderful conversations in regards to codes enforcement, something which has been brought up in the past by Councilmember Sawyer. She stated that she talked quite a bit with a gentleman from Manhattan, Kansas, again someone she probably would never have gotten the opportunity to have great conversations with, about their rental inspection program. Councilmember Kuhn stated there is just far too much for her to be able to report on this evening. She stated in all honesty her giving a report on all those things, is probably nowhere as beneficial as her opportunity to have had that one-on-one exchange with them and that real interpersonal opportunity to give feedback to each other and gain from those encounters. Councilmember Kuhn stated she agrees with Councilmember Straub on one thing that they have not probably done, which is talking enough about these types of things in Council meetings; talked about the places they have been to and maybe asking staff from those events online so they can show the public, not just offline where she tries to let the staff know these things she has learned. Councilmember Kuhn stated that she knows Councilmember Pflumm brought back from one conference a great concept that he had asked staff to look into as well with regard to an opportunity for the City to sell online some equipment or parts from automobiles where they may have been getting less for than they could have gotten. She stated she will give Councilmember Straub kudos for reminding them that sometimes maybe they need to make a bigger deal in public about all the really amazing things that they bring back from these trips. She just wanted to take the chance to let him know and also ask staff to follow up on some of the things she was able to be exposed to in Wichita. Councilmember Pflumm thanked Councilmember Kuhn for the update. PAGE 22 CITY COUNCIL MINUTES OCTOBER 27, 2008 Councilmember Straub thanked Councilmember Kuhn for her great work. He stated this is exactly what he is talking about, in that there are a lot of things going on that the Council is doing that is not being shared with everyone, so he would be very happy to learn from them and would be very happy to learn more about the recycling to see if they can get that going further. He stated if there is any information Councilmember Kuhn could share with him, he would love to continue that effort and thinks they need to move forward with recycling throughout the City. Councilmember Kuhn stated she would be more than happy to give Councilmember Straub the name of the gentleman she spoke with, but thinks the best use of her time is to recognize that she does not have a great expertise in that field and is probably doing the best job she can by giving that information to the people who are working on the project and ask them to gather as much information as they can. Councilmember Kuhn stated she knows in the limited amount of time she spent with this person she did not ask enough questions and did not have enough opportunity. She stated rather than giving information that she does not feel particularly qualified to give, she would rather wait and see what the staff can bring back to her with ideas when they can ask some more in depth, educated questions that she had any ability to ask. She only hopes that by her being there and being exposed to them, is enough to possibly give the staff the chance to bring that forward. Councilmember Straub stated he was really asking Councilmember Kuhn if she had any documentation. He does not know of the classes she attended and if they gave her any information or data. Councilmember Sawyer stated he believes a recycling update is coming up at the Finance and Administration Committee meeting in December, so staff is already gathering information. ADJOURNMENT Councilmember Pflumm, seconded by Councilmember Straub, moved to adjourn. The motion carried 7-0, and the meeting adjourned at 8:53 p.m. Minutes prepared by: Cindy Terrell, Recording Secretary APPROVED BY: ____________________________________________ Vicki Charlesworth, City Clerk
"CITY OF SHAWNEE"