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					Attorney Work Product – Privileged and Confidential                                                        Page 1
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                    ABC81128                               __6/ … have the original …

                                                           __7/ …
__2/ …
                                                           __8/ … the 7th … The documents I reviewed to see
__3/ …
                                                           6/ _ JENNIFER CLEVELAND TRINDLE, CPA,
__4/ …                                                     called as a witness and having been first duly sworn,
                                                           testified as follows: EXAMINATION BY MR.
__5/ …                                                     PALMER: {Q} Good morning, Ms. Trindle. Thank
                                                           you for coming today. I'll now show you a document
2/      I N D E X THE WITNESS: JENNIFER                    and ask if you've seen this before. MR. PALMER:
CLEVELAND TRINDLE, CPA VOLUME I                            The court reporter will please mark it as Exhibit 2.
EXAMINATION: PAGE By Mr. Palmer … 6                        (Trindle Exhibit No. 2 marked for identification) {A}
TRINDLE EXHIBITS: Exhibit No. 2 … 6 Exhibit                This looks like the document that I received by fax.
No. 3 … 98 Exhibit No. 4 … 101 Exhibit No. 5 …             {Q} Including the attachment? {A} Yes, although I
101 Exhibit No. 6 … 104 Exhibit No. 7 … 106                would have to have the original that I received to
Exhibit No. 8 … 108 Exhibit No. 9 … 111 Exhibit            compare them directly. {Q} Do you have it with you?
No. 10 … 112 Exhibit No. 11 … 114 Exhibit No. 12           {A} Excuse me? {Q} Do you have it with you? {A}
… 117 Exhibit No. 13 … 120 Exhibit No. 14 … 122            No. {Q} No.
Exhibit No. 15 … 122 Exhibit No. 16 … 124 Exhibit          7/ MR. PALMER: Do you have it, Mr. Cayrnes?
No. 17 … 127 Exhibit No. 18 … 128 Exhibit No. 19           MR. CAYRNES: I'm not sure I have the one that Ms.
… 130 Exhibit No. 20 … 132 Exhibit No. 21 … 133            Trindle received because she probably received it
Exhibit No. 22 … 136 Exhibit No. 23 … 137 Exhibit          from James Marie. I'm confident that it's the same
No. 24 … 137 Exhibit No. 25 … 146 Exhibit No. 26           thing, but I'd have to be looking at it to know that.
… 147 Exhibit No. 27 … 152 Exhibit No. 28 … 152            MR. PALMER: But you told me you sent her the
3/ I N D E X (Continued) TRINDLE EXHIBITS                  same thing he sent you. MR. CAYRNES: No. I sent
(Continued) Exhibit No. 29 … 158 Exhibit No. 30 …          James Marie - actually, you sent James Marie a copy.
160 Exhibit No. 31 … 161 Exhibit No. 32 … 163              MR. PALMER: Correct. MR. CAYRNES: And when
Exhibit No. 33 … 164                                       - one moment. MR. PALMER: If there are any
4/ A P P E A R A N C E S: FOR THE PLAINTIFF                differences - {A} This is what I received. {Q} (By
CHENEDY ADAMS CORPORATION: Mr. J.                          Mr. Palmer) Okay. Take a quick moment and look at
Robert Palmer Mr. J. Jason Chen Keith & Dorset             it and see if this is the same. {A} This is not easy. I
2300 M Street, S.E., Suite 600 Washington, D.C.            do not have my glasses. It's been marked up. {Q} The
20037 ALSO PRESENT: Mr. Winward C. Quincy                  difference being that it's today's date instead of the
Mr. Jason A. Dickasulo Mr. George E. Beauregard            12th, correct?
FOR THE DEFENDANT THE UNITED STATES:                       8/     {A} Uh-huh, the 7th. {Q} Instead of the 7th,
Mr. Steven Cayrnes Commercial Litigation Branch,           correct. {A} They look to be the same. {Q} Okay.
Civil Division United States Department of Justice         Did you bring any documents today? {A} No. {Q}
1100 L Street, S.E., 7th Floor Washington, D.C.            Did you review any documents before you came here
20530 ALSO PRESENT: Mr. Jason G. Cooley                    today? {A} The documents I reviewed to see if they
5/           The oral deposition of JENNIFER               met the requirements of that have been provided. {Q}
CLEVELAND TRINDLE, CPA, was taken on May                   By whom? {A} I gave them to Jay Cooley. {Q} And
12, 1998, beginning at 10:15 a.m., in the offices of       what were they? {A} I do not recall specifically other
Candid Court Reporters, 2777 Allen Boulevard, 5th          than there was a briefing by Georgine O'Henry and
Floor, Durham, Ford County, Wyoming, before Nina           there were some personnel opportunity documents.
S. Tyler, a Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for        {Q} What are those? {A} Hiring. {Q} Who gets
the State of Wyoming, pursuant to Notice, the United       copies of those documents? MR. COOLEY:
States Court of Federal Claims Rules, and the              Hopefully you already have. MR. CAYRNES: I want
following stipulation of counsel for the respective        to note for the record that there is somewhat of a lack
parties that: IT WAS STIPULATED AND/OR                     of clarity in terms of the notice insofar as it identifies
AGREED that the deposition is to be signed by the          documents which appear to be government
witness before any Notary Public or officer                documents as opposed to the witness's own personal
authorized to administer oaths.                            papers.

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if they met the requirements of that have been                  F. Dallas State Wyoming; Raoul F. Dallas State …
provided … I gave them to Jay Cooley …                          College; I attended San Juan Community College …
                                                                attended the University of Durham Clear Lake. I have
__9/ …                                                          a degree in accounting, a bachelor of science degree
                                                                … a CPA … not … college-type jobs … GOHS … I
__10/ … provided to James Marie my notes from a                 was a contract specialist … Here at Bobson … From
meeting that occurred in Washington, which …                    1987 as a co-op student until … May of 1992
copies of those …
                                                                __12/ … I did not until 1993 … In May of '92 …
__11/ … the July 22nd meeting … I attended Raoul                until October or November of '93, warrant … - to
                                                                May of '92 … had no warrant … here at Bobson …
9/     As far as we're aware, those documents have              Washington, D.C. … As a detailee working in the
already been produced, the documents that fit those             Procurement area … for … Helene Anderson …
descriptions. I also mentioned to Mr. Chen in a
telephone conversation that to the extent that there            __13/   … She became the chief of staff … Dan
may be any government documents within the scope
of this notice that were not previously produced -              Community College; and I also attended the
again, I don't know; I don't think there are - but to the       University of Durham Clear Lake. I have a degree in
extent that there might be, the government would be             accounting, a bachelor of science degree, and I'm a
entitled to 30 days to respond under Rule 34. And               CPA. {Q} And have you worked for any - what was
request for documents in a deposition notice, if it's           your first job out of college, first full-time job? I'm
addressed to the government, would still be subject to          not talking about college-type jobs. {A} GOHS. {Q}
that Rule 34. To the extent that it's not addressed to          At GOHS. What was that position? {A} I was a
the government but to the witness personally, it                contract specialist. {Q} Here at Bobson? {A}
doesn't say one way or the other which it is. I think           Correct. {Q} How long were you in that position?
the understanding of the witness was these are                  {A} From 1987 as a co-op student until
basically - MR. PALMER: I think she can explain                 approximately May of 1992.
her own understanding. MR. CAYRNES: All right. I                12/     {Q} Did you have a warrant? {A} I did not
won't say what her understanding is.                            until 1993. {Q} And that was - so you were
10/         I can tell you what the government's                essentially without warrant until May of '92. In May
understanding was in terms of addressing this, was              of '92? {A} No. I said until October or November of
that insofar as this was looking for government                 '93, warrant. {Q} So you got your warrant in October
documents, there was no need to produce any                     or November of '93 is what you're telling me? {A}
documents in response to this at this time for both of          Yes. {Q} Okay. So the contract specialist from 1987
the reasons that I gave. MR. PALMER: Okay. But                  - you're a co-op student - to May of '92, you had no
you're aware there are a number of deficiencies in the          warrant? {A} Correct. {Q} And you were here at
production of the government at this point - MR.                Bobson? {A} Correct. {Q} Now, in May of '92,
CAYRNES: That's a contention. MR. PALMER: -                     where did you go? {A} Washington, D.C.. {Q} In
some of which have been identified. And during the              what capacity? {A} As a detailee working in the
process of identifying, we'll address those. I'm just           Procurement area. {Q} Who did you work for? {A}
interested in what she reviewed at this particular              Helene Anderson. {Q} Do you know how long she
point, not in addressing the deficiencies in the                had been there at the time you were detailed?
government's production. We'll address that at a                13/      {A} No, I don't recall. {Q} What was her
given place and time when that occurs, but right now            position? {A} I don't recall when I went there. She
I'm only interested in what she saw. {A} I also                 became the chief of staff. {Q} To whom? {A} Dan
provided to James Marie my notes from a meeting                 Swann. {Q} The administrator? {A} Of GOHS. {Q}
that occurred in Washington, which you-all have                 And did you get a new boss at that point, or did you
copies of those. {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) Those are                  go with her? {A} I don't understand your question.
handwritten notes or typed?                                     {Q} Did you go on to her staff, on to Swann's staff at
11/ {A} Typed. {Q} Okay. We'll get to that. You're              that point? {A} I worked for Helene Anderson when
referring to the July 22nd meeting? {A} Correct. {Q}            she was the chief of staff for a brief period of time.
First of all, let's go back. I believe we have your full        {Q} And how long was that? {A} I don't recall
name on the record. Would you tell me what your                 specifically. {Q} Approximately? {A} I don't recall
additional background is, please? {A} I attended                specifically. At some point between when I first
Raoul F. Dallas State Wyoming; Raoul F. Dallas                  started working there and prior to February of '93, I
State Teacher's College; I attended San Juan                    became the assistant to the acting deputy director,

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Swann … The administrator … Of GOHS … I                     we ended up reviewing the overall structure and
worked for Helene Anderson when she was the chief           organization of GOHS as a whole … the whole of
of staff for a brief period …                               GOHS … We were conducting … what was a zero-
                                                            based review … Organizational … Not just
__14/ … he held the position that Tom O'Neil                organizations, but the work itself and work
currently holds … Ms. Anderson remained the chief           assignments …
of staff … for some period … the assistant to the
acting deputy director, to Tomison … until …                __16/ … a series of red and blue teams … were
February of '93 … between the period of May of '92          reviewing work across GOHS. They prepared reports
and February of '93 I stopped working for Helene            dealing with what was going on in particular areas,
Anderson and became the assistant to Luke Tomison           whether … it was Aeronautics or Aerospace or the
…                                                           SEO-IYS Program … I typed up a lot of those reports
                                                            …
__15/ … February I became the executive assistant
to Dan Swann … I was brought out there to relieve a         __17/ … Not in the classic sense of financial or tax
backlog of Procurement reforms … they had asked             accounting … besides type the reports … I attended
me to review the computer system. I … did that …            meetings, reviewed input. I did … correspondence
                                                            control … Checked calendars … Staff meetings
Luke Tomison. It may not be his correct title. It may       under Helene Anderson … Helene … staff meetings
be acting associate deputy - {Q} Director?                  … Meetings with Luke Tomison … particular subject
14/ {A} I'm not certain of the title. {Q} What was          matter … Many of them were general staff meetings;
his position? {A} At that time he held the position         some were meetings with people, employees or
that Tom O'Neil currently holds. {Q} And Ms.
Anderson remained the chief of staff? {A} I don't           16/       MR. CAYRNES: The question is a little
recall. I believe so for some period, yes. {Q} And          unclear. {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) Give me an example.
then how long were you the assistant to the acting          MR. CAYRNES: Well, it's still unclear. MR.
deputy director, to Tomison? {A} I don't recall the         PALMER: An example of what she's talking about?
number of months, but it was until approximately            She knows what she's talking about. I don't know
February of '93. {Q} Why have you - I thought you           what's not clear except it's not clear to me. {Q} (By
said you worked for Helene Anderson until                   Mr. Palmer) Give me an example of what kind of
approximately February of '93. {A} I said that              work review you're talking about. {A} There were a
sometime between the period of May of '92 and               series of red and blue teams that were reviewing
February of '93 I stopped working for Helene                work across GOHS. They prepared reports dealing
Anderson and became the assistant to Luke Tomison.          with what was going on in particular areas, whether
{Q} Okay. {A} And I don't recall the specific date.         or not it was Aeronautics or Aerospace or the SEO-
{Q} Do you recall how many months you were in               IYS Program, and I typed up a lot of those reports.
each position? {A} No, I don't. {Q} Was one longer          {Q} I assume you were acting professionally, not
than the other? {A} I don't recall.                         merely as a typist. Is that correct? {A} To some
15/     {Q} February of '93, what did you do? {A}           extent, yes. {Q} Well, what were your professional
Approximately February I became the executive               responsibilities in this review, overall structure? {A}
assistant to Dan Swann. {Q} Let's go back to when           I can't provide a specific example.
you worked for Helene Anderson. This was in                 17/ {Q} Were you being used as a CPA? {A} Not
Procurement, I believe you said, correct? {A}               in the classic sense of financial or tax accounting.
(Witness nods head) {Q} What were your duties?              {Q} What did you do besides type the reports? {A} I
{A} Initially, I was brought out there to relieve a         attended meetings, reviewed input. I did a lot of
backlog of Procurement reforms. Specifically, they          correspondence control. {Q} Okay. {A} Checked
had asked me to review the computer system. I never         calendars. {Q} Whose meetings did you review or
did that; rather, we ended up reviewing the overall         did you attend? {A} Staff meetings under Helene
structure and organization of GOHS as a whole. {Q}          Anderson. {Q} That would be Helene Anderson's
Just Procurement or the whole - the Procurement or          staff meetings? {A} Correct. {Q} Any others? {A}
the whole of GOHS? {A} The whole of GOHS. {Q}               Meetings with Luke Tomison. {Q} Any particular
That would be the centers, everything? {A} We were          subject matter on any of these? {A} Many of them
conducting, in essence, what was a zero-based               were general staff meetings; some were meetings
review. {Q} Organizational? {A} Not just                    with people, employees or contractors. {Q} On any
organizations, but the work itself and work                 particular issues? {A} A variety of issues. {Q}
assignments. {Q} For example?                               Programs? {A} Some. {Q} What programs?

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contractors … Programs … Some …                                __20/ … I did not review … I reviewed meetings
                                                               where presentations were made on the overall
__18/ … Aeronautics … Aeronautics is not shuttle               structure of how we did the work, where we could
… Wind tunnels, airplanes, not space vehicles … no             change emphasis or focus … In order to meet budget
Aeronautics on the shuttle … There are … as …                  requirements … There was … a degree of both … It
aerodynamics involved in the shuttle. GOHS has                 was a developmental position for me …
divided itself up into both Aeronautics and Aerospace
… the shuttle does not fall into Aeronautics … It falls        __21/ … GS-08 … Understand … the scope of …
under Space … The Aeronautics and Aerospace are                work … Bobson Space Center … individual detail …
separate                                                       Gene Demaun … boss …

__19/ Ship is considered Aerospace, Space Flight …             __22/ … Antoinette Rice … had been my boss …
I would not classify it as reviewing. I did not perform
a review … We did not discuss those in Aeronautics             20/ {A} Yes. {Q} You testified that you reviewed
meetings … those in Aerospace meetings … If there              the overall structure of GOHS? {A} I would not
were Aerospace meetings, the shuttle … probably …              testify to that. {Q} You did not review the - {A} I did
involved …                                                     not review personally. I am not technical. {Q} So
                                                               what did you mean when you said you reviewed the
                                                               overall structure of all of GOHS? {A} I reviewed
                                                               meetings where presentations were made on the
                                                               overall structure of how we did the work, where we
18/          {A} Aeronautics, for example. {Q}                 could change emphasis or focus. {Q} In order to do
Aeronautics and shuttle? {A} Aeronautics is not                what? {A} In order to meet budget requirements.
shuttle. {Q} Aeronautics is what then? {A} Wind                {Q} With an emphasis on preparing the next budget
tunnels, airplanes, not space vehicles. {Q} No                 or the current budget? {A} I don't recall. {Q} Was it
Aeronautics on the shuttle? MR. CAYRNES: Is that a             both? {A} There was probably a degree of both. {Q}
question? {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) It's no Aeronautics              What was your purpose in those meetings then as a
on the shuttle? {A} There are certainly, as you well           non-technical person? {A} It was a developmental
know, aerodynamics involved in the shuttle. GOHS               position for me. {Q} How would it develop you? In
has divided itself up into both Aeronautics and                Procurement? Were you a Procurement series civil
Aerospace. {Q} And the shuttle does not fall into              servant at this point still?
Aeronautics? {A} Correct. {Q} It falls under Space?            21/ {A} Yes. {Q} At approximately what grade?
{A} Yes. {Q} So even though the shuttle flies in the           {A} GS-08. {Q} And it was to develop you to what?
atmosphere, it would be part of the Space Division at          {A} Understand more fully the scope of GOHS's
GOHS? {A} The Aeronautics and Aerospace are                    work. {Q} And the career path that this development
separate.                                                      would take you where? {A} I did not know. {Q}
19/      Ship is considered Aerospace, Space Flight.           Who detailed you? {A} Bobson Space Center. {Q}
{Q} Okay. So you reviewed that - that was one of the           Was it an established program or an individual
programs that you were reviewing - MR. CAYRNES:                detail? {A} Individual detail. {Q} Who detailed you?
Was that - {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) One of the structures           {A} I don't understand your question. {Q} Who by
of the Ship Program? {A} I would not classify it as            name sent you to Washington? {A} Gene Demaun.
reviewing. I did not perform a review. I'm not                 {Q} And that was the director of human resources at
technical. {Q} The structure of - the division that you        Bobson? {A} No. {Q} That's your boss? {A}
just described between Aerospace and Aeronautics               Indirectly. {Q} Who recommended you for this?
would be the structure - the type of structural division       22/ {A} Antoinette Rice. {Q} How did you know
that you would be reviewing in your duties or not?             Antoinette Rice? {A} She had been my boss. {Q}
{A} I've lost your train of thought. {Q} You just              Here at Bobson? {A} Yes. {Q} Was she working in a
described a division of GOHS. Even though the                  Procurement capacity at that point? {A} Yes. {Q}
shuttle looks like an airplane and performs like an            What was that? {A} At the time - at what time? {Q}
airplane and certain aspects of its missions - {A} We          At the time she detailed you or before - the time she
did not discuss those in Aeronautics meetings. {Q}             was your boss. {A} At the time she was my boss, she
Did you discuss those in Aerospace meetings? {A} If            was working in a Procurement capacity. {Q} And
there were Aerospace meetings, the shuttle would               what was that capacity? {A} She was a branch chief.
probably have been involved. {Q} So that's part - that         She later became a division chief, so she was my boss
is attributable to the GOHS structure, correct, that           up the chain. {Q} And she knew your work, correct?
division?                                                      {A} Yes. {Q} So she recommended you to go to

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Here at Bobson … she … in a Procurement capacity
… Yes … At the time she was my boss, she was                   __25/ … briefings … were given, along with a set of
working in a Procurement capacity … She was a                  charts
branch chief. She later became a division chief … she
was my boss up the chain … she knew … work …                   __26/ … from … it would be from whoever was
she recommended … to go to Washington to this job              providing the briefing. I would have their briefing
with Feders Group … I started working for her full-            charts … With regard to the red and blue teams, those
time in 1989 …                                                 were prepared and sent to Luke Tomison, who gave
                                                               them to me to review for editing as well as
__23/ … I worked for her when she was the branch               reformatting … these reports would be reformatted or
chief … worked for her … until she left Bobson …               edited for submission to someone else or some other
Listen, observe …                                              organization … the red and blue team reports …
                                                               would … the red and blue team reports … where … -
__24/ … Put them in my desk … If people provided               a final report … - was prepared that summarized the
reports … read them … Sometimes for editing …                  results of the red and blue team reviews … this was
would … return them … throw them away                          … part of Helene … staff … Luke Tomison …

Washington to this job with Feders Group? {A}
Correct. {Q} How long did you work for Antoinette?
{A} I started working for her full-time in 1989, and I
do not recall when she left the Bobson Space Center            25/     It depended on the nature of the report. {Q}
or I no longer worked for her.                                 With comments? MR. CAYRNES: Do you want to
23/     {Q} And so it was from 1989 until she left?            make a full sentence on that question? It's not clear
{A} As branch chief? {Q} Until she left Bobson, you            the way it's stated. {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) Returned
worked for her? {A} I worked for her when she was              with comments or without? {A} I don't recall
the branch chief of the branch I was within. {Q} And           returning items to Helene Anderson with comments.
put a time frame around that for me. It's 1989 to              {Q} Did you receive the reports from Helene
when? {A} I don't know when she became the                     Anderson? {A} Your question is very vague to me.
division chief, and neither do I recall when she left          {Q} These reports that you were reviewing - it's
the Bobson Space Center. {Q} But you worked for                because you haven't been real clear on your duties. If
her either directly or indirectly until she left Bobson?       you can clarify your duties, perhaps it would help a
{A} Correct. {Q} Okay. With respect to these                   little bit. These reports that you received as part of
meetings that you attended in this developmental               your duties, from whom did you receive them or
mode, what were your duties in attending them? {A}             what office or entity? {A} There are reports that were
Listen, observe. {Q} Did you take notes? {A}                   prepared by different organizations, and sometimes
Sometimes. {Q} Were you required to take notes                 there were briefings that were given, along with a set
ever? {A} On occasion. {Q} Was there a specific                of charts.
form that these notes had to be in?                            26/ So it would be from - on occasion, it would be
24/ {A} No. {Q} What did you do with them when                 from whoever was providing the briefing. I would
you took them? {A} Put them in my desk. {Q} They               have their briefing charts. There was a daily
never became part of the file, permanent file? {A}             correspondence file that contained a lot of reports and
No. {Q} Now, you also indicated that you reviewed              briefings. With regard to the red and blue teams,
input. What are you talking about? What kind of                those were prepared and sent to Luke Tomison, who
input are you talking about? {A} I don't recall the            gave them to me to review for editing as well as
context of when I said that. Could you elaborate?              reformatting. {Q} And these reports would be
{Q} You said that your duties included meetings,               reformatted or edited for submission to someone else
reviewed and corrected Correspondence Control                  or some other organization? {A} Yes. The ones - for
calendars. What kind of input? {A} If people                   example, the red and blue team reports. {Q} And
provided reports, I may have read them, for example.           where would they be going, the red and blue team
{Q} And for what purpose? {A} Sometimes for                    reports? {A} I don't recall where they went.
editing. {Q} So they weren't final reports? {A} Some           Eventually, a report - a final report - that is, not draft
were, some weren't. They may have been. {Q} And                - was prepared that summarized the results of the red
would you ever summarize them for Helene                       and blue team reviews. {Q} And this was always part
Anderson? {A} No. {Q} So what would you do with                of Helene Anderson's staff? {A} And Luke Tomison.
them? {A} Often return them, sometimes throw them              {Q} And Luke Tomison's staff. Did he work for her?
away.                                                          {A} No. {Q} These were two separate things?

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__27/ … Helene Anderson … Correspondence                     did … Chief of staff … Chief of staff … I did not
Control is the organization that handles all incoming        maintain calendars … For what purpose … Ensuring
correspondence addressed to the … office and                 there … conflicts … the conflict
distributes it and files it … That was not my job … If
it was … a congratulations letter to Mr. Swann … a           __30/ … did this for both Tomison and for Anderson
response                                                     or only for Anderson … duties with Mr. Tomison …
                                                             Accompanied him to meetings … If he wanted me to
__28/ … would … Forward the file … It was                    tend to any issues, he would ask me to perform a …
forwarded - circulated throughout the office … I             task … Were … local to the Washington area …
would put it in my out basket … the secretary would          internal meetings … until around February of '93 …
forward it … None … We had morning meetings                  became executive assistant to the administrator …
where we reviewed the calendar of the day … - to
ensure that we had … a driver for a trip to the Fort …       __31/ … I was … the chief of staff … Did … job as
                                                             executive assistant differ … Helene Anderson was in
__29/ … I did not work for him … Helene Anderson
                                                             calendars included scheduling of various - {A} I did
27/      {A} Yes. {Q} And you did correspondence             not maintain calendars. {Q} You reviewed calendars?
control in both capacities as well? {A} No. {Q} Only         {A} (Witness nods head) {Q} For what purpose? For
in which one? {A} Helene Anderson. {Q} And what              scheduling services, making sure that services were -
was Correspondence Control? {A} Correspondence               {A} Ensuring there weren't conflicts as well. {Q}
Control is the organization that handles all incoming        And if there were conflicts, what did you do? {A}
correspondence addressed to the administrator's              Resolve the conflict.
office and distributes it and files it. {Q} Do you           30/ {Q} And you did this for both Tomison and for
review it? {A} Pardon? {Q} Did you review it as              Anderson or only for Anderson? {A} Only Anderson
well? {A} Review it? Define "it." {Q}                        during that time frame. {Q} What were your duties
Correspondence. {A} I read it. {Q} Did you                   with Mr. Tomison? {A} Accompanied him to
segregate it in any way according to subject matter or       meetings. {Q} And for what purpose? {A} If he
prioritize it? {A} That was not my job, no. {Q} What         wanted me to tend to any issues, he would ask me to
did you do with it? {A} It - {Q} Did you catalog it?         perform a specific task. {Q} Were these local to the
{A} It depended. If it was, for example, a                   Washington area, the meetings? {A} Correct. {Q}
congratulations letter to Mr. Swann, one of the tasks        Out of town as well? {A} No. {Q} Internal meetings
that I did was to provide a response.                        only or also others? {A} I only recall internal
28/ Often if it was something else, for example, a           meetings. {Q} And this was until around February of
letter on Aeronautics, I simply read it. {Q} And then        '93, correct? {A} Correct. {Q} At which point you
what would you do with it? {A} Forward the file.             became executive assistant to the administrator? {A}
{Q} To whom? {A} It was forwarded - circulated               Yes. {Q} What did your job description say,
throughout the office. {Q} And it would be circulated        executive assistant to the administrator? {A} I don't
next to whom? {A} I don't know. {Q} After you saw            recall. {Q} How did it differ from being chief of
it, where would you send it? {A} I would put it in my        staff?
out basket, and the secretary would forward it. {Q}          31/ {A} I was never the chief of staff. I don't know
Was it a part of your job to know where it went? {A}         the difference. {Q} Are you familiar with Helene
No. {Q} None whatsoever? Now calendars, what did             Anderson's job? {A} Yes. {Q} Did your job as
you do? {A} We had morning meetings where we                 executive assistant differ from that? {A} Yes. {Q}
reviewed the calendar of the day - who was doing             How did it differ? {A} Helene Anderson was in the
what, who was going where - to ensure that we had,           position of making decisions; I was not. {Q} Making
for example, a driver for a trip to the Fort. {Q}            decisions about what? {A} Personnel issues, policy
Would you do any direct scheduling of Helene                 issues. {Q} You made no decisions as an executive
Anderson?                                                    assistant at all? {A} Not with respect to personnel or
29/ {A} No. {Q} Who did that? {A} I don't know.              policy. {Q} With respect to what could you make a
{Q} Who did the administrative scheduling? {A}               decision as executive assistant? {A} That's too broad
During what time frame? {Q} This time frame, '92.            a question to answer. {Q} Did you have daily contact
{A} I don't know. I did not work for him at the time.        with Mr. Swann? {A} In? {Q} In your job as
{Q} But Helene Anderson did, correct? {A} Yes.               executive assistant? {A} When he was in town, yes.
{Q} She was the executive assistant, you said? {A}           {Q} Did you ever travel with him? {A} Yes. {Q}
No. {Q} What did you say? {A} Chief of staff. {Q}            When you traveled, did you have daily contact with
Chief of staff. I'm sorry. So your maintenance of            him on the trips?

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the position of making decisions; I was not …               staff …
Making decisions about what … Personnel issues,
policy issues … decisions … with respect to                 __35/ … not … that with a "yes" or … "no …
personnel or policy … When he was in town … with
him … Yes …                                                 __36/ …

__32/ … Would … do for Mr. Swann first thing in             __37/ … The Legislative Affairs office coordinated
the morning … Reviewed the schedule … His
schedule … Assisted him as necessary … said "no …
If he … going to a meeting, I would accompany him           work for him for any meetings he attended? {A} I
to a meeting, not all meetings …                            don't understand what your definition of "coordinate
                                                            staff work" is. {Q} You're a staffer, correct? {A}
__33/ … he would tell me he wanted me there;                Pardon? {Q} At this point you're a staffer? You're on
sometimes he would tell me he … want me there …             his staff? {A} Uh-huh. {Q} That's what an executive
Who prepared the schedule … The secretary … Mr              assistant is, isn't it? {A} We may have differing
… secretary … it for … Where he was going, what             opinions on what the definition of a "staffer" is. {Q}
he … Would … inquire … If he had a Fort visit …             Give me yours. We'll work with that. MR.
"Do you want me to go with you …                            CAYRNES: Bill, it's your term, you know. {Q} (By
                                                            Mr. Palmer) Give me what you understand "staff
__34/ … If he told me no, I would not go … on his           work" to mean. {A} I can't answer that.
                                                            35/ MR. CAYRNES: If the witness hasn't used a
32/ {A} Yes. {Q} All right. Would you describe for          term, you can't assume that she even has a definition.
me what you did first thing in the morning when you         It's not her terminology. MR. PALMER: She speaks
came in when you were in town as executive                  French. She's been in a fairly high level in the
assistant? What would you do for Mr. Swann first            government. We all have been in the government.
thing in the morning? {A} Reviewed the schedule for         That's a fine distinction. It doesn't make any
the day. {Q} His schedule? {A} Yes. {Q} Okay.               difference. She's aware that every executive does not
Then what? {A} Assisted him as necessary. {Q} He            do everything. He has a staff that accomplishes it.
would just call on you? {A} No. {Q} You said "no"?          MR. CAYRNES: That's right, but that's not what the
{A} Correct. {Q} He would not call on you? {A} No.          question is. {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) The question is, did
You asked if he would just call on me. {Q} Oh, and          you coordinate the accomplishment of that work by
you said - he would just call on you when he needed         his staff? {A} I cannot answer that with a "yes" or a
you? {A} No. {Q} Okay. How would you interact               "no." {Q} Well, we'll take it one step at a time then.
with him? {A} If he were going to a meeting, I would        Let's assume that there is an Aeronautics issue - a
accompany him to a meeting, not all meetings. {Q}           hypothetical now, not real - and it has to be worked
How would you know that you were to go or not to            in a bureaucratic sense for the Fort. Let's say
go?                                                         Challenger - that's not Aeronautics; let's say
33/ {A} Sometimes he would tell me he wanted me             Aerospace - because the Challenger blew up.
there; sometimes he would tell me he didn't want me         36/ That's a classic issue of something that has to be
there. {Q} Would there be an indication on the              worked. Clearly, it is going to be staff involvement;
schedule? {A} No. {Q} Who prepared the schedule?            administrative staff is going to be involved. Who
{A} The secretary. {Q} Mr. Swann's secretary - {A}          would coordinate the staff? MR. CAYRNES:
Yes. {Q} - or yours? {A} Mr. Swann's secretary. {Q}         Objection; the question is vague as to the word
Okay. When you would review it, what were you               "worked." That's a certain kind of a jargon that
reviewing it for? {A} Where he was going, what he           doesn't add to the clarity and precision of the
was going to be doing. {Q} Okay. Would you inquire          testimony. MR. PALMER: Does she understand the
as to what he wanted you to do with respect to any          question? MR. CAYRNES: It doesn't matter whether
items you saw on the schedule? {A} Sometimes. {Q}           she understands it or not. The transcript is going to
Okay. Give me an example of something that caused           contain something that is not going to be clear if you
you to inquire? {A} If he had a Fort visit, I would         use jargon and assume that the witness understands it
say, "Do you want me to go with you?" {Q} Okay.             and understands it the same way you do or the same
Otherwise, you would not go?                                way anybody who reads it would understand it. MR.
34/ {A} Otherwise? {Q} You would not go? {A} If             PALMER: We can be here the rest of the week, Mr.
he told me no, I would not go. {Q} Did you                  Cayrnes. {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) Do you understand
coordinate staff work for him for any of these visits       the question? {A} Let me answer in what I think
to the Fort? {A} No. {Q} Did you coordinate staff           you're trying to get at.

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all testimony for Mr. Swann on the Fort … If it dealt          Mr. Swann, Helene Anderson, Mr. Tomison … there
with a Public Affairs issue … speaking at a civic              one central appointment book … Who kept it … Mr
event, Public Affairs generally handled it. To the             … secretary … that … Mandy Greene … they asked
extent of my involvement with staff work … assure              me to check with her … they would check with her
that he … his speech in hand, that he … a                      directly to get it entered into the book …
presentation item … a task to the appropriate office
… it was the administrator speaking with the                   __40/ … people would ask questions regarding
associate administrators …                                     whether Mr. Swann wanted to meet with this person
                                                               …
__38/ … agree to … Would … call them … took
care of Mr … travel arrangements when … executive              __41/ … someone out of the chief financial … office
assistant … His secretary … coordinated it … in the
suite did …                                                    do you mean? {A} Mr. Swann, Helene Anderson,
                                                               Mr. Tomison. {Q} Would that depend on for whom
__39/ … I used the … principals … secretaries …                you were performing a particular task? {A} I don't
                                                               recall. {Q} Who made appointments for the
37/ Did I go round up answers on this Aeronautics              administrator? {A} A variety of people. {Q} Was
issue? {Q} No. I said who coordinated the effort to            there one central appointment book? {A} Yes. {Q}
develop the administrator's testimony for the Fort?            Who kept it? {A} Mr. Swann's secretary. {Q} And
{A} The Legislative Affairs office coordinated all             do you recall who that was? {A} Mandy Greene. {Q}
testimony for Mr. Swann on the Fort. {Q} Okay.                 Now, when this variety of people made appointments
Let's say we had something that was not Fort                   for him, would they check with you or only with her?
involvement. He would be speaking at a civic                   {A} Sometimes they asked me to check with her, and
organization, for example, and it would require                sometimes they would check with her directly to get
someone to draw together resources from around                 it entered into the book. {Q} Would there ever be a
GOHS. Would that be something that you would do?               screening to determine if a given appointment was
{A} If it dealt with a Public Affairs issue, for               going to be allowed or not?
example, speaking at a civic event, Public Affairs             40/     {A} Sometimes people would ask questions
generally handled it. To the extent of my involvement          regarding whether Mr. Swann wanted to meet with
with staff work, I might assure that he had his speech         this person or not. {Q} Who would make the
in hand, that he had a presentation item in hand. {Q}          decision, that decision to meet or not to meet? {A} It
Who would send a task to the appropriate office such           depends on the situation. {Q} Would you ever make
as Public Affairs or Legislative? {A} Sometimes I              that decision? {A} I don't recall. {Q} You don't recall
did. More frequently it was the administrator                  ever making the decision, or you don't recall - {A} I
speaking with the associate administrators. {Q} In his         don't recall a specific incidence. {Q} Where you
staff meetings? Would he be speaking to them in his            made the decision? {A} Correct. {Q} But you could
staff meetings when these jobs would be handed out?            have? {A} Yes. {Q} Now, for these meetings, whose
38/ {A} No, not generally. {Q} It would be a one-              duty was it to inform and prepare Mr. Swann? {A}
on-one type of thing if he had called them or directed         For what meetings? {Q} Any meetings that he had on
you to call them? {A} You're giving me a                       his appointment book. {A} It would depend on the
hypothetical that I can't agree to. {Q} Would you              subject matter. {Q} Okay. Give me an example. If it
ever call them and say, "The administrator wants you           involved a budget issue, let's say, would that be
to take care of this piece of business"? {A}                   something that you would brief him on?
Occasionally. {Q} And that would be either at his              41/     {A} No. {Q} Who would do it? {A} Most
request or self-initiated on those occasions you did it?       likely, someone out of the chief financial officer's
{A} Probably a little bit of both. {Q} Who took care           office. {Q} So when an appointment is made, who
of Mr. Swann's travel arrangements when you were               determines what issues are involved and coordinates
executive assistant? {A} His secretary. {Q} Did he or          the preparation? {A} I don't recall specifically. It
she also take care of yours as well? {A} I don't recall        would depend on the situation. {Q} Wouldn't you as
who took care of my travel arrangements. {Q} You               executive assistant make that determination? {A} Of?
coordinated it, though, or did someone coordinate it?          {Q} What the issues are and what information needs
{A} Yes. One of the secretaries in the suite did. {Q}          to be gathered for the administrator to be prepared for
And did you have a secretary?                                  the meeting? {A} No, I would not make that
39/ {A} No. {Q} What did you do for secretarial                decision. {Q} Mandy Greene would make it? {A}
assistance? {A} I used the other principals - I used           No. {Q} Then who? {A} It would depend on what
the principals' secretaries. {Q} By "principals," who          the meeting was. For example, if it was a budget

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… I would not make that decision … if it was a                  to have his speech in a particular blue … - box. He
budget issue, the chief financial officer would make            had … structure to the way he operated … I
that decision and would come forward with the                   determined it by observation … If it was a speaking
appropriate information or data …                               event, he generally had a speech or some set of
                                                                talking points with him … Speeches were prepared
__42/ … case where each associate administrator                 by a speech writer … we would review the calendar,
would come look at the calendar and decide what to              the speech writer was … in those meetings … a
do … they … put the meeting on the calendar … To                speech was coming up … Not a hard set structure …
do what Mr. Swann wanted me to do, to assure that               - the speech writer would talk to Mr. Swann, ask him
he … was on time to meetings … there was a regular              for … the themes … that he wanted to have
list of things that he liked to have when he … a                addressed
public speaking event. He wanted to have
presentation items                                              __44/ He or she would prepare the speech, would
                                                                give it to Mr. Swann for review. They would discuss
__43/ He wanted to have meatball pens. He wanted                it. He would put his changes in - he would discuss
                                                                changes he wanted to see made to the speech … it
issue, the chief financial officer would make that              went back and forth through … several iterations …
decision and would come forward with the                        generally … those speeches that he gave … when
appropriate information or data. {Q} So would each              they were in town … a party at these meetings … for
significant officer review the schedule to determine            public speeches …
for him or herself whether or not they should provide
data to the administrator?                                      __45/ … Public Affairs be the logical candidate …
42/     {A} I don't believe there's ever a case where
each associate administrator would come look at the             there a structure for coordination of the speech? {A}
calendar and decide what to do. {Q} Well, how                   Not a hard set structure. Most often - and I'm
would they know whether there was a meeting                     speaking of a public speech - the speech writer would
affecting their functional area on the calendar if they         talk to Mr. Swann, ask him for what the themes were
didn't do it? {A} Most often, they were the ones who            that he wanted to have addressed.
put the meeting on the calendar. {Q} So if they didn't          44/ He or she would prepare the speech, would give
put the meeting on the calendar, how would they                 it to Mr. Swann for review. They would discuss it. He
know? Would that be your duty? {A} I don't recall               would put his changes in - he would discuss changes
that I did that. {Q} Mandy Greene's duty? {A} I don't           he wanted to see made to the speech, and it went
recall that she did that. {Q} So as executive assistant         back and forth through generally several iterations.
to the administrator, just what were your duties? {A}           {Q} Did you generally attend those speeches that he
To do what Mr. Swann wanted me to do, to assure                 gave when he gave them? {A} Yes, when they were
that he had the - that he was on time to meetings, to           in town. {Q} Were you also a party at these meetings
assure that - for example, I knew that there was a              that you just described? {A} Sometimes. {Q} Was it
regular list of things that he liked to have when he            Mr. Swann's habit to digress from his prepared text in
went to do a public speaking event. He wanted to                these matters? {A} When he gave a speech? {Q}
have presentation items.                                        When he gave a speech, yes. {A} Generally, no, for
43/ He wanted to have meatball pens. He wanted to               public speeches. {Q} Were they handed out? Were
have his speech in a particular blue book - box. He             the text of the speeches given to the press before he
had a lot of structure to the way he operated. {Q} Did          gave them generally? {A} I don't recall that ever
he inform you of the structure, or did you have to              happening. {Q} Were text of the speeches ever given
determine it yourself? {A} I determined it by                   to the press?
observation. {Q} And you gave us a list of things               45/ {A} I don't recall that ever happening. {Q} If
here. Did it include talking points? I don't recall if          they were given to the press, who would give them to
you said that or not. {A} I did not say that. If it was a       the press? {A} I don't know. {Q} Would Public
speaking event, he generally had a speech or some set           Affairs be the logical candidate? {A} Yes. {Q} Who
of talking points with him. {Q} And who would                   prepared talking points for Mr. Swann? {A} They
prepare the speech? {A} Speeches were prepared by               generally were prepared by the cognizant office. {Q}
a speech writer. {Q} Would you arrange that as                  Cognizant of what? {A} For example, if the - if Mr.
executive assistant? {A} In meetings that we had                Swann was going to give a remark on Aeronautics,
where we would review the calendar, the speech                  then it would be someone in the Aeronautics office
writer was generally always in those meetings and               who would prepare talking points and perhaps even
would know that a speech was coming up. {Q} Was                 brief Mr. Swann. {Q} And the briefing would take

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They generally were prepared by the cognizant office          prepare a speech for Mr. Swann on Procurement
… Cognizant of … - if Mr. Swann … give a remark               reform … we wrote it … She was the chief of staff
on Aeronautics … someone in the Aeronautics office            … we interfaced with each other … Chief of staff
… would prepare talking points and … brief Mr.                could make personnel and policy decisions …
Swann … would … be stand-up with slides … in his
office … sitting down and discussing it …                     __48/ … commented on a meeting I had attended …
                                                              Where I tell him what the results were from a
__46/ … Speeches were for formal events …                     meeting or the substance of the meeting … I was …
involved as a principal actor in preparing for …              in several meetings with Procurement people …
meetings that Mr. Swann had … using … definition              Procurement reforms, contractual issues … There …
…                                                             some budget issues … some acquisition strategy
                                                              sessions …
__47/ … talking points for him … when another
person out of Procurement and I were asked to                 __49/ … I sat in on some meetings with contractors
                                                              … During '92, '93 … who got on the calendar … with
the place. How formal would it be? Would it be                center directors … In Washington … two centers
stand-up with slides? {A} No. It would be in his              while I was up there … to Lustig … to the Bobson
office. {Q} Just sitting down and discussing it? {A}          Space Center … Mr. Swann had meetings at the
Correct. {Q} How was a decision made between                  centers … went with him …
speech preparation and talking points preparation?
46/      {A} Speeches were for formal events. {Q}             __50/ … To sit in on his meetings occasionally,
Whether public or private? {A} I don't know how
you can have a public event that's private. {Q}               48/ {Q} Did you ever attend meetings on his behalf
Whether the event is public or private, if there's an         and report to him on those meetings? {A} I don't
event, say, a GOHS employees' meeting where he's              recall ever attending a meeting on his behalf and
going to give a speech, would he have a speech                reporting to him. {Q} Do you ever recall reporting to
prepared for that, or would he have talking points            him on a meeting? {A} I may have commented on a
prepared for that? {A} I don't know. {Q} I consider           meeting I had attended. {Q} Never reported? {A}
that a private matter. {A} I don't recall specifically.       Not in the sense I believe you mean it. {Q} What
{Q} Were you ever involved directly in preparations           sense do you mean it? {A} Where I tell him what the
for any meeting that Mr. Swann had in '92, '93? {A}           results were from a meeting or the substance of the
Define "directly involved." {Q} Were you involved             meeting. {Q} Did you meet with Procurement people
as a principal actor in preparing for any meetings that       when you were executive assistant? {A} I was
Mr. Swann had in 1992 or 1993? {A} I would have               probably in several meetings with Procurement
to say no, using what I - using your definition. {Q}          people. {Q} On what subjects? {A} A variety of
My definition. Let's change it then. Were you ever            subjects. {Q} Procurement-related? {A} Procurement
given specific and direct responsibility for preparing        reforms, contractual issues. {Q} Financing? {A}
for particular meetings in that time frame?                   There may have been some budget issues. {Q}
47/      {A} I don't recall. I never prepared talking         Acquisition strategies? {A} There were probably
points for him, for example, with the exception that          some acquisition strategy sessions that I attended.
one time when another person out of Procurement               49/ {Q} Any meetings with contractors? {A} I sat
and I were asked to prepare a speech for Mr. Swann            in on some meetings with contractors. {Q} During
on Procurement reform, and we wrote it. {Q} And               '92, '93? {A} Yes. {Q} On any particular program?
what was your relationship to Helene Anderson                 {A} No. Runs the gambit, anybody who got on the
during this time frame? {A} She was the chief of              calendar. {Q} Center directors, did you meet with
staff, and we interfaced with each other. {Q} So how          center directors? {A} Yes. {Q} In Washington? {A}
does executive assistant's duties - how did they differ       Yes. {Q} At the centers? {A} I recall coming to -
from chief of staff? {A} Chief of staff could make            going to at least two centers while I was up there.
personnel and policy decisions. I could not. {Q}              {Q} Which two? {A} I recall going to Lustig, and I
Okay. Can you give me a definition of "executive              recall going to the Bobson Space Center. {Q} Do you
assistant" that I can use as a working definition for         recall the purpose? {A} No, I don't. Mr. Swann had
the rest of the day? {A} Not off the top of my head.          meetings at the centers. {Q} So you went with him?
{Q} Do you want to think about it a little bit over the       {A} Correct. {Q} And what were your duties in these
break? {A} (Witness nods head) {Q} Let's go on a              meetings?
little bit further. Did you ever meet with people in          50/     {A} To sit in on his meetings occasionally,
Mr. Swann's stead? {A} I don't recall ever doing that.        assure that he had what he needed for the trip. {Q}

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assure that he had what he needed for the trip … what         … something like … if it had not come in … I am a
would … do … Observe, listen. If … any actions …              list maker. I kept many lists of outstanding items …
were assigned, I would track the actions that came            was it maintained … I maintained it … kept these
from the meetings. I … maintained a list of who … at          lists and checked them daily … Not … daily …
the centers gave Mr. Swann briefings … he liked to
send thank you notes … I would let the actionee               __53/ … Never undocumented meetings … there
know that they had an action if they … present …              were no notes taken … Of the meeting … That was
                                                              … regular part of the process …
__51/ … would let me know … Mr. Swann … the
actions were for me … I did them … ask me to call             __54/ … If the meeting was on the calendar, he
… and have them provide a list of some new
technologies that were … developed … they would               might call me and say, "Jen, I can't get that report to
prepare it … they would give it to me … I maintain a          you today." Or Mr. Swann might say to me
… good … - short term memory of those items …                 something like, "Did you get that report yet?" I'd go,
                                                              "I didn't get it," if it had not come in. {Q} And you
__52/ … Someone … call me … Mr. Swann … say                   didn't maintain any way to follow up to assure that
                                                              you didn't have that conversation? {A} I am a list
When you'd sit in, what would you do? {A} Observe,            maker. I kept many lists of outstanding items. {Q} In
listen. If there were any actions that were assigned, I       a notebook? {A} Yes, as well as piles of Post-It notes
would track the actions that came from the meetings.          and notes on paper. {Q} And was this maintained by
I would also - generally, I maintained a list of who,         a secretary for you, these notes? {A} No. {Q} How
for example, at the centers gave Mr. Swann briefings          was it maintained? {A} I maintained it personally.
because he liked to send thank you notes. {Q} Would           {Q} And you kept these lists and checked them
you draft the thank you notes? {A} I don't recall             daily? {A} Not necessarily daily, but regularly,
drafting thank you notes to briefings at centers. {Q}         frequently.
Did you have a formal system for tracking actions             53/ {Q} When you attended meetings, you didn't
that resulted from these meetings? {A} No. {Q} How            take - you said you didn't take notes at the meetings.
did you track them? {A} I would let the actionee              Is that correct? {A} Sometimes I took notes, I said, I
know that they had an action if they weren't present. I       believe. {Q} Was there always someone to take notes
don't recall that actions weren't followed up on. {Q}         at these meetings? {A} No. {Q} Never
Do you have any kind of what we in the legal                  undocumented meetings? {A} Undocumented in the
business would call "docket control"? Do you                  sense that there were no notes taken? {Q} Or in any
understand that phrase, term? {A} I don't know what           sense. MR. CAYRNES: You've got to say what you
that means.                                                   mean. MR. PALMER: She said no notes were taken.
51/ {Q} Would you put the action on the calendar              {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) Was there a summary prepared
and check with the actionee to see that the action was        of the results? {A} What result? {Q} Of the meeting.
completed? {A} No. {Q} How would you find out if              {A} I don't recall. That was not a regular part of the
one wasn't completed? {A} I don't recall that actions         process. {Q} What was the regular process? {A} I'm
weren't completed. If they weren't, somebody would            not sure there was a process. {Q} No process at all?
let me know. {Q} That somebody would be Mr.                   54/     MR. CAYRNES: The real question has been
Swann? {A} Perhaps. Sometimes the actions were                asked and answered. Now you're getting into … {Q}
for me, and I did them. {Q} For example? Give me              (By Mr. Palmer) There was no process, no structure
an example of an action that would be for you. {A}            for having these meetings? {A} That's not correct.
He might ask me to call one of the centers and have           {Q} What structure is there? {A} If the meeting was
them provide a list of some new technologies that             on the calendar, he attended the meeting. There may
were being developed, and I would call the center             or may not have been someone taking notes. It
and they would prepare it and they would give it to           depended on the meeting. {Q} And how would the
me. {Q} Okay. Did you ever put on your calendar the           decision be made as to whether or not notes would be
date it was promised and follow it up? {A} No. I              taken? {A} I don't know how that decision was
maintain a very good memory of - short term                   always made. {Q} Who made that? {A} Sometimes I
memory of those items. {Q} So you maintained all              decided to take notes on a meeting. Sometimes Mr.
this in your head? {A} And I had - I have lots of             Swann instructed someone to take notes at a meeting.
notes and Post-It notes that I kept on my desk.               I'm speaking specifically of Mr. Swann's meetings.
52/ {Q} If an action wasn't completed, why would              {Q} And those notes of Mr. Swann's where he was a
you be let known - why would you be led to know an            participant would become part of his file? {A} No,
action wasn't completed if it wasn't? {A} Someone             not necessarily.

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attended the meeting … Who made that … I decided               Washington, I went back up there … they were
to take notes on a meeting … Mr. Swann instructed              emptied out of that room … I was told that they had
someone to take notes at a meeting … speaking … of             been sent to the library … The GOHS headquarters
Mr … meetings …                                                library … The executive assistant who replaced me
                                                               … Jim Davis … executive assistant … Less than a
__55/ … They were not kept in any formal, official             year, more than … months …
file … tasked by Mr. Swann to find … notes of a …
meeting … I maintained a file that had all of the              __58/ … I was told … this was in '93 … after '93 …
handouts and briefings from meetings … I would go              in '94 … after I had left Washington … did … leave
to that file and get the briefing package … that was           Washington … October of '93 … I returned to the
part of the … files … It was files that were kept in           Bobson Space Center and my home … I went to
the … suite. They are not there any longer                     work in the Space Station Program office …
                                                               Contracting officer
__56/ … When I was there …
                                                               __59/   … was … Pam Vonnegut … We worked
__57/ … they are not in his office … after I left

55/      {Q} What would happen to it? {A} I don't              to be which library? {A} The GOHS headquarters
know. {Q} If he instructed them to take notes and              library, I assumed. {Q} And who told you that they
they took notes, what would they do with the notes?            had been sent there? {A} The executive assistant who
What was the routine pattern and practice in the               replaced me. {Q} And what was his or her name?
agency with regard to those notes? {A} They were               {A} Jim Davis. {Q} And is he still the executive
not kept in any formal, official file. {Q} What was            assistant? {A} No. {Q} Who is? {A} I don't know.
done with them? {A} I don't know. {Q} Kept at the              {Q} Do you know how long he was executive
note taker's desk or wherever the note taker just              assistant? {A} No, I don't. Less than a year, more
determined to put them? {A} I don't know. {Q} Were             than a couple of months. {Q} Can you tell me why
you ever tasked by Mr. Swann to find any notes of a            you asked about those files?
given meeting? {A} Yes. {Q} And what did you                   58/     Why you asked Mr. Davis about those files?
find? {A} I maintained a file that had all of the              {A} I'm not sure I asked him about the files. {Q}
handouts and briefings from meetings, and I would              What was the reason for inquiring about the status of
go to that file and get the briefing package. {Q} And          the contents of those filing cabinets, then? {A} I
that was part of the administrator's files? {A} Yes. I         asked, "Where did the files go?" And I don't recall
want to qualify that. It was files that were kept in the       whom I asked that of. I was told by whomever, "They
administrator's suite. They are not there any longer.          were sent to the library." {Q} And this was in '93?
56/     And so when you say "administrator's files,"           {A} No. It would be after '93. {Q} About when? {A}
I'm not sure what you mean. You may mean                       Sometime in '94. It was after I had left Washington.
something different. {Q} Where are they kept now -             {Q} And when did you leave Washington? {A}
{A} I don't know. {Q} - if they're not in a suite? {A}         October of '93. {Q} Where did you go when you left
I don't know. {Q} Doesn't he have his own file room?           Washington? {A} I returned to the Bobson Space
{A} When I was there, no. {Q} To your knowledge,               Center and my home. {Q} In what capacity at
does he now have one? {A} I do not know for                    Bobson? {A} I went to work in the Space Station
certain. {Q} Do you have a suspicion? MR.                      Program office. {Q} In what capacity? {A}
CAYRNES: Objection to any questions about                      Contracting officer.
suspicion. {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) Do you know either              59/ {Q} Were you the principal contracting officer?
directly or indirectly that he has his own file room?          {A} No. {Q} Who was? {A} Pam Vonnegut. {Q}
MR. CAYRNES: I will object to the lack of                      You worked for Ms. Vonnegut? {A} We worked
foundation, but you can go ahead and go with this              together. {Q} So how was the labor divided? {A}
one. {A} Do I know what now?                                   Pam would assign work as the principal contracting
57/     {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) That either directly or            officer. {Q} Okay. When she assigned work, how did
indirectly that he has his - {A} Currently? {Q} Yes.           she divide it generally? Was there a rationale as to
{A} I have no knowledge. {Q} So then how do you                how it was divided between you? {A} I don't recall.
know that they are not in his office now? {A}                  {Q} Were there other contracting officers? {A} Yes.
Because after I left Washington, I went back up there.         {Q} How many? {A} I don't recall. {Q} Did they
I had maintained two file cabinets, and they were              work on the same level with you and Pam Vonnegut?
emptied out of that room, and I was told that they had         {A} We worked in the same office. {Q} The same
been sent to the library. {Q} And you understood that          level of responsibility as you and Pam Vonnegut?

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together … Pam would assign work as the principal             __62/ … It was not when I entered it … I am an SES
contracting officer … there other contracting officers        … At what level … One … a Level 1 … The summer
… We worked in the same office … Pam Vonnegut                 of '97 … I was 15 … grade when … left Washington
… They were contracting officers …                            … 13 … A 13 as I entered it … a promotion before I
                                                              left it … In the … office …
__60/ … They took their lead from Pam … I dealt
with Lustig on a couple of OATES issues … I spent a           __63/ … 13 … It was a new position … the first
great deal of time working on a contract to bring a           incumbent … current position … I have overall
French space agency astronaut on board … As a                 responsibilities for managing and coordinating the
contractor, a consultant … for the Space Station              functions of … the institutional side of the house …
Program … I was reassigned on January 6th 1994, a             comprises … Public Affairs, Human Resources, the
… short time …                                                Center Operations …

__61/ … The … office … the director at this point             __64/ … familiarly known as roads and commodes
… Dr. Jennifer Simmons … I am in the … office …
Have … been in the … office since January 6th 1994            62/ {A} It was not when I entered it. {Q} Is it now?
… I was executive assistant to Dr. Simmons. They              {A} I am an SES. {Q} At what level? {A} One. {Q}
changed my title … I became the Associate Director            And when did you become a Level 1? {A} The
of Management later, which is my current position …           summer of '97, I believe. {Q} When you first went to
                                                              the director's office, you were what grade? {A} I was
                                                              15, I believe. {Q} Were you a 15 when you left
{A} They were contracting officers. {Q} Were they -           Washington? {A} No. {Q} What was your grade
did they work for you and Pam Vonnegut or -                   when you left Washington? {A} 13. {Q} And at the
60/ {A} They took their lead from Pam most often.             Space Station Program's office, you were what
{Q} So at this point - this is October of '93 - this is       grade? {A} A 13 as I entered it. {Q} And you left as
before the award of the Aerobus letter contract. Is           a - {A} I don't believe I had a promotion before I left
that correct? {A} I don't recall when that was                it. {Q} Did you go directly from 13 to 15 then? {A}
assigned. {Q} Were you principally working with               No. {Q} Where were you a 14? {A} In the director's
Aerobus? {A} No. {Q} Who were you working with                office. {Q} So in January of '94 when you were
as contractors? {A} I don't recall who I worked with          reassigned, you were reassigned as a Grade 14?
directly. I know I dealt with Lustig on a couple of           63/ {A} No, 13. {Q} So you were promoted there
OATES issues, and I spent a great deal of time                at that job from 13 to 14? {A} After a period of time,
working on a contract to bring a French space agency          yes. {Q} Was the Associate Director of Management
astronaut on board. {Q} On board what? {A} As a               position existent at the time you became the associate
contractor, a consultant. {Q} For what? {A} I don't           director of management? {A} It was a new position.
recall what his specific duties were at this time. {Q}        {Q} And you were the first incumbent? {A} Correct.
Was it for the Space Station Program, though? {A}             {Q} And that's your current position? {A} Correct.
Yes. {Q} And how long were you in the Space                   {Q} And what are your duties? {A} I have overall
Station Program office? {A} I was reassigned on               responsibilities for managing and coordinating the
January 6th 1994, a very short time. {Q} To where?            functions of, for shorthand's sake, the institutional
61/     {A} The director's office. {Q} Who was the            side of the house. {Q} Which comprises what?
director at this point? {A} Dr. Jennifer Simmons.             Comprises what? {A} Public Affairs, Human
{Q} And is that where you are currently? {A} I am in          Resources, the Center Operations. {Q} When you say
the director's office. {Q} Have been continuous since         - {A} Procurement, Business, Finance. {Q} "Center
1994? {A} I've been in the director's office since            Operations" would be what?
January 6th 1994. {Q} In the same position? {A} No.           64/         {A} It's familiarly known as roads and
{Q} What positions have you held? Start in '94 when           commodes. {Q} Civil engineering type of functions?
you were first assigned. {A} I was executive assistant        {A} It is the logistics functions at the center and
to Dr. Simmons. They changed my title sometime,               facilities. {Q} Okay. And what else? {A} What else?
and I don't recall the exact date, and I don't even           {Q} That's all of your duties, is HRPA and center
recall the exact title they changed it to. And then I         ops? {A} No. I also said business administration -
became the Associate Director of Management later,            {Q} Yes. {A} - and the budget. {Q} You work on the
which is my current position. {Q} When did you                program memorandum for the budget? That would be
become Associate Director of Management? {A} I                part of your job? {A} Pardon? {Q} The program
don't recall the specific date. {Q} Approximately?            memorandum for the budget would be part of your
{A} I don't recall. {Q} Is that an SES position?              job? {A} I'm not certain what a "program

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… Civil engineering type of functions … It is the                  how it gets spent …
logistics functions at the center and facilities …
HRPA and center … business administration … the                    __67/ … I had received a request from James Marie
budget … Budget request … I do not work on that …                  for my notes regarding the … CEO meeting …
The … office coordinates it …                                      received that request from Mr. Marie … In 1998 …

__65/ … The CFO works directly for the center                      __68/ … Go back to Washington … publications for
director … The CFO will come to me if they have                    him and bring them to his attention … The reading
issues that they need addressing … I have delegated                file … Which was prepared … The correspondence
all functions down to the organizations … Budget                   office … Letters that had come in … Mr. Swann …
decisions … they come back up through the                          concern about what industry press was saying …
organizations to the center director for final decisions
… this … budget … For the entire center … For the                  __69/ … I did not track what industry was saying …
entire center … The budget is looked at as a whole,
not as pieces … the budget includes program money                  and various things that go on today might be
…                                                                  interesting. I don't see the relevance.
                                                                   67/ If you want to go on with it, go on with it, but
__66/ … Not in terms of making decisions about                     we're dragging on a lot of time. {Q} (By Mr. Palmer)
                                                                   Have you seen the pleadings in this case, copies of
                                                                   the pleadings? {A} No. {Q} Have you discussed
memorandum" is. {Q} Budget request? {A} I do not                   them with anyone? {A} I don't know what the
work on that per se, no. {Q} Do you coordinate it?                 pleadings are, so I don't know if I've discussed
{A} The CFO's office coordinates it. {Q} Does the                  anything. {Q} Has anyone told you what the contents
CFO respond principally to you? {A} No. {Q} No.                    of them are? {A} No, not to my knowledge. {Q}
You're co-equal?                                                   Have you ever been requested to look for documents
65/      {A} The CFO works directly for the center                 concerning this case? {A} I received this request and
director. {Q} So I'm trying to get in my mind clearly              the notice of deposition. {Q} By "this" you're
what your budget function is then. Exactly what is it?             referring to Exhibit 2? {A} This notice of deposition
{A} The CFO will come to me if they have issues                    and Attachment A, and I had received a request from
that they need addressing. In my role, I have                      James Marie for my notes regarding the - what is
delegated all functions down to the organizations.                 known as the CEO meeting. {Q} Do you recall when
{Q} What kind of functions are we talking about                    you received that request from Mr. Marie? {A} In
here? {A} Budget decisions, etcetera. And then they                1998. {Q} Do you recall the month or - {A} No. I'm
come back up through the organizations to the center               not certain when I sent that.
director for final decisions. {Q} So this would be                 68/ {Q} Go back to Washington. {A} Uh-huh. {Q}
operation and maintenance type budget - a type of                  When you were executive assistant to Mr. Swann,
budget? {A} For the entire center. {Q} For the entire              was it any part of your duties to brief him during the
center? {A} Yes. {Q} There would be no program                     day regularly? {A} No. {Q} Did you review
money involved here? {A} The budget is looked at as                publications for him and bring them to his attention?
a whole, not as pieces of it. Yes, the budget includes             {A} Yes. {Q} What did you review? {A} The
program money. {Q} Congress allocates money for                    reading file. {Q} Which was prepared by whom?
those purposes and -                                               {A} The correspondence office. {Q} And what was
66/        {A} I'm aware of that. {Q} So there's a                 generally included in it? {A} Letters that had come
distinction between program money and O and M                      in. {Q} Well, with regard to publications specifically.
money, less control over program money. Now,                       {A} No. {Q} To your knowledge - {A} I don't recall
would you deal with the program money? MR.                         it. {Q} To your knowledge, did Mr. Swann have any
CAYRNES: Object to the question. There's too much                  concern about what industry press was saying? {A}
testimony in that. Where's the question? {Q} (By Mr.               Yes. {Q} How did he track that? {A} I don't know
Palmer) Would you deal with the program money                      that he tracked it.
and how? {A} No. {Q} No? So that's really not part                 69/ {Q} Did you track it? {A} I did not track what
of your responsibilities? {A} Not in terms of making               industry was saying. {Q} Does GOHS have a
decisions about how it gets spent. MR. CAYRNES:                    clipping - or at that time did GOHS have a clipping
I'd just like to note for the record - I'll let you go on if       service that - {A} Yes. {Q} And was that part of the
that's what you want - this case is about an alleged               daily reading file? {A} No. It was separate. {Q}
contract - an alleged breach of contract occurring in              Would it go to Mr. Swann every day? {A} I don't
1993. You know, what the witness's duties are today                know that it went every day, but I believe it did. {Q}

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GOHS … a clipping service … It was separate …                 testified that … Mandy Greene maintained the
Would … go to Mr. Swann every day … Public                    calendars …
Affairs did and sometimes Legislative Affairs did …
The clipping service provided clips …                         __72/ … He had his daily calendar … It was printed
                                                              out each morning … reviewed … Did … maintain a
__70/ … It was all space-related … happening in               card file on the people he met … When he met with
Ceylon … Unless it involved the Space Program …               people at a center … they gave him briefings on
Some of them. AVIATION WEEK AND SPACE                         technology, activity … - I would call back to the
TECHNOLOGY, SPACE NEWS … large city                           center and ask for a list of the people who had
newspapers … WASHINGTON POST, NEW                             provided briefings if I … already … that and asked
JERSEY TIMES … the NEW JERSEY TIMES, the                      for their address … we would have Correspondence
WALL STREET JOURNAL …                                         Control prepare a thank you note or a response …

__71/ … rather keep going … and complete this …               __73/ … During this '92-'93 time frame … Lukeette
                                                              Pratt took charge of Correspondence Control …
Would you review it and call matters to his attention?        Would … get copies of the briefings as part of …
{A} No. {Q} Would anybody do that? {A} Yes. {Q}               duties … maintained … It was … a regular calendar
Who? {A} Occasionally, Public Affairs did and                 appointment book
sometimes Legislative Affairs did. {Q} Did Program
Offices also do that? {A} I suppose there might be an         Commuter? {A} No. {Q} How did he - how did he
occasion. {Q} Can you tell me what publications               know where to go and when to be there?
Public Affairs reviewed, if you know? {A} I don't             72/ {A} He had his daily calendar. {Q} Which was
know all of them. The clipping service provided               in what form? {A} It was printed out each morning.
clips. {Q} And that was an internal clipping service?         {Q} On an 8 X 11? {A} I don't remember the size of
70/ {A} I don't know that. {Q} Was it only about              the paper. It was on a piece of paper, though. {Q}
space matters or matters touching on GOHS, or was             And that was the calendar that you said you
it more general? {A} It was all space-related. It             reviewed? {A} Yes. {Q} Did he maintain a desk
wasn't, for example, what's happening in Ceylon. {Q}          calendar personally? {A} No, not that I recall. {Q}
Unless it involved the Space Program? {A} Correct.            Or a blotter calendar? {A} No. {Q} As he met
{Q} And do you recall the publications that they              people, you said he liked to send thank you notes.
would use? {A} Some of them. AVIATION WEEK                    Did he maintain a card file on the people he met?
AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY, SPACE NEWS,                             {A} He did not. {Q} How did he know who to send
various large city newspapers. {Q} WASHINGTON                 thank you notes to? {A} When he met with people at
POST, NEW JERSEY TIMES? {A} Certainly the                     a center, for example, and they gave him briefings on
NEW JERSEY TIMES, the WALL STREET                             technology, activity, we would generally - I would
JOURNAL. {Q} Did they track the Fort newspapers?              call back to the center and ask for a list of the people
{A} I don't recall about the Fort newspapers. I'm not         who had provided briefings if I hadn't already gotten
even aware of a Fort newspaper, per se. MR.                   that and asked for their address, and we would have
CAYRNES: By the way, I might just note that we've             Correspondence Control prepare a thank you note or
been going for about an hour and a half, and I just           a response of some sort.
think the witness ought to be advised that if she needs       73/       {Q} Who's in charge of Correspondence
to take a break or is tired, she can.                         Control? {A} Pardon? {Q} Who was in charge of
71/     {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) Of course, you at any             Correspondence Control? {A} During what period?
time can take a break. All you have to do is ask. Do          {Q} During this '92-'93 time frame. {A} At one point
you want to take a short break now? {A} I'd rather            there was a woman - I don't recall her name, Diane
keep going right now and complete this. {Q} Okay.             something - who has since retired, and then a woman
Just let me know when you want one. Now, you've               named Lukeette Pratt took charge of Correspondence
previously testified that, I believe it was, Mandy            Control. {Q} Would you get copies of the briefings
Greene maintained the calendars? {A} Yes. {Q}                 as part of your duties? {A} Yes. {Q} And these were
Who maintained the administrator's notebooks? {A}             the briefings that you said were in the filing cabinet -
What notebooks? {Q} His personal notebooks that he            {A} Yes. {Q} - you maintained? {A} Uh-huh. {Q}
kept. MR. CAYRNES: Assumes facts not in                       The calendar that was maintained, was it maintained
evidence. {A} Tell me what the notebook was. {Q}              in a particular format? Was it a word processing
(By Mr. Palmer) Did he keep personal notes, to your           document, or was it a Microsoft schedule calendar?
knowledge? {A} No. {Q} Never did? {A} No. I'm                 {A} It was a book, a regular calendar appointment
not aware of any. {Q} Never took any. Did he use a            book.

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                                                              notes … I … the e-mail system as a place for official
__74/ … daily it was extracted … Mandy Greene,                records … my correspondence to centers involved
the secretary, would type up the schedule … that … a          dealing with my family … to Bobson … to my
word processing document … Were those maintained              family … it for business … Yes … business purpose
chronologically once the schedule for the day was             … To follow up on an action …
established … The daily, pitched … Whoever had
that little piece of paper … She maintained the               __77/ … things that … maintained in the official file
appointment book … Mr. Swann … a computer user                … If the things that … are classified as working
… When I was there, he was not … During the '92-              records … I distinguish them … They would be
'93 time frame … he had one on a credenza behind              GOHS business … nothing on the e-mail is
his desk …                                                    considered official record. That comes out of my
                                                              Procurement background … internal or to a
__75/ … a computer on … desk … Was … a                        contractor …
network … I could send e-mail notes … Whomever I
needed to send something to … Sometimes at centers            __78/     … We have an information systems
… this a desktop computer …
                                                              the e-mail to centers? {A} Much of my
__76/ … I certainly … have any … have any e-mail              correspondence to centers involved dealing with my
                                                              family. {Q} That would be to Bobson? {A} Correct.
74/     {Q} Okay. And then daily it was extracted?            It would be to my family. {Q} I see. Okay. Personal.
{A} Mandy Greene, the secretary, would type up the            Aside from personal e-mail - {A} Uh-huh. {Q} - did
schedule for the day. {Q} And that would be a word            you use it for business? {A} Yes. {Q} What purpose?
processing document? {A} Correct. {Q} Were those              What business purpose? {A} To follow up on an
maintained chronologically once the schedule for the          action. {Q} For - {A} Send me the names and
day was established? Were they - {A} The daily,               addresses of the people who gave briefings. {Q} Do
pitched. {Q} By whom? {A} Whoever had that little             you draw a distinction between working documents
piece of paper. {Q} So Mandy Greene didn't                    and official records?
maintain a historical chronology of them? {A} No.             77/      {A} I'm not sure what your definition of a
She maintained the appointment book. {Q} Aside                "working document" is, but I consider that official
from the book, there's no other? {A} Not that I'm             records are things that have to be maintained in the
aware of. {Q} Was Mr. Swann, to your knowledge, a             official file. And, yes, I distinguished between things
computer user? {A} No, he's not. When I was there,            that must be maintained in the official file and things
he was not. {Q} During the '92-'93 time frame? {A}            that don't. If the things that don't are classified as
Correct. {Q} Did he have one on his desk? {A} I               working records, yes, I distinguish them. {Q} That
don't recall. I believe he had one on a credenza              would probably be as good as any. But they would,
behind his desk, but I never saw him use it.                  nevertheless, be official business, the working
75/ {Q} That computer then would - were you on a              records would be? {A} They would be GOHS
local area network in the office administrative suite?        business, yes. {Q} GOHS business. {A} Yes. {Q}
{A} I'm not - I can't attest to that. {Q} Did you have        And how do you determine which is which? {A}
a computer on your desk? {A} Yes. {Q} Was it a                Which is official records for the file? {Q} Correct.
network? {A} Yes. {Q} With whom? {A} I don't                  {A} My understanding - and I believe it still is
know. All I know is that I could send e-mail notes.           maintained - is that nothing on the e-mail is
{Q} And to whom would you send them to? {A}                   considered official record. That comes out of my
Whomever I needed to send something to. {Q} At a              Procurement background. {Q} Whether it's internal
center? {A} Sometimes at centers. {Q} And was this            or to a contractor? {A} I don't recall ever sending e-
a desktop computer or a notebook computer? {A}                mail to a contractor; and, yes, that's probably still the
Desktop. {Q} And how did you maintain your e-mail             case.
records? {A} Define "maintain." {Q} If the e-mail             78/ {Q} Are you familiar with the e-mail protective
related to a particular program, did you save it in a         order in this case? {A} No, I'm not. {Q} No one has
folder electronically or did you print it in hard copy        told you about it? {A} I don't know what you're
and put it in the appropriate file?                           talking about. {Q} Does the computer system fall
76/ {A} I didn't file my e-mail. {Q} At all? {A} I            into - at Bobson fall into the roads and commodes
don't recall. I certainly don't have any - currently          function of maintenance of the - {A} No. {Q} What
have any e-mail notes at all from that time frame. I          system does it fall into? {A} We have an information
never treated the e-mail system as a place for official       systems directorate. {Q} And who is in charge of
records. {Q} So what would you correspond about in            that? {A} Bob - Vickie Hogan. {Q} You know, when

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directorate … is in charge … - Vickie Hogan … It             __81/ … save this note … the GOHS policy on it …
has metamorphosed through several different                  not a GOHS policy … the agency … that people
versions and bosses …                                        comply with the information policy … outside my
                                                             bailiwick … that was … prepared … Correspondence
__79/ … He is … the CIO at the Bobson Space                  Control …
Center. That is separate from the information systems
directorate … The CIO deals with issues of policy.           __82/ … receive something without … being aware
The information system directorate deals with issues         … By what means … Something … be hand-carried
of services and implementation issues …                      in … something … come in that was marked
Functionality of the system … chief information …            "Personal and Confidential." He … received
decision … that policy is … decision … an agency             documents … have a secret clearance …
policy …
                                                             __83/   … mail … would come in through the
__80/ … I have a written recusal of all matters
dealing with information technology … have a                 81/     {Q} What criteria did you apply? We're not
computer at … desk … I can erase a note …                    talking about personal notes. I'm talking about
                                                             business-type things. {A} Do I need to save this note.
                                                             {Q} And that's the GOHS policy on it? {A} "Do I
was the information center - information systems             need to save this note" is not a GOHS policy. {Q}
directorate established? {A} I don't recall. It has          Okay. So what is the GOHS policy, the headquarters'
metamorphosed through several different versions             policy on deletion, destruction? {A} I am not familiar
and bosses. {Q} It was Tom Trindle, I believe your           with the policy. {Q} So how does the agency assure
husband, who was one of the principal persons                that people comply with the information policy? {A}
involved in establishing it. Is that correct? {A} In         That's outside my bailiwick. {Q} In your position as
establishing? {Q} The information systems                    executive assistant to Mr. Swann, you said you
directorate, qua, information systems directorate?           reviewed correspondence. Did you review all
79/ {A} No. {Q} But he was the chief information             correspondence that came across his desk? {A} I
officer here? {A} He is currently the CIO at the             can't say that I did. {Q} Is it fair to say that you
Bobson Space Center. That is separate from the               probably did? {A} I reviewed all correspondence that
information systems directorate. {Q} Oh, it is? {A}          was included in the daily reading file. {Q} Okay.
Yes. {Q} And how is it separate? {A} The CIO deals           And that was being prepared by whom? {A}
with issues of policy. The information system                Correspondence Control. {Q} Okay. And you also
directorate deals with issues of services and                reviewed his calendar?
implementation issues. {Q} Functionality of the              82/ {A} Yes. {Q} So would it be fair to say that
system? {A} Correct. {Q} So the policy decision on           you had a good idea of what the trends were in the
maintenance or on electronic mail - save, destroy,           correspondence, the issues he was looking at? {A}
whatever - would be chief information officer's              Not necessarily. {Q} Would he be able to receive
decision? {A} I believe that that policy is actually a       something without you being aware of it? {A} Yes.
headquarters' decision. {Q} As opposed to a Bobson           {Q} By what means? {A} Something might be hand-
decision? {A} It's an agency policy. {Q} Okay. So            carried in, and similarly something might come in
Bobson follows whatever headquarters says in that            that was marked "Personal and Confidential." He also
regard? {A} That would be my assumption.                     received documents that were secret, and I don't have
80/ {Q} So my question is, who at Bobson would               a secret clearance. {Q} If things were hand-carried,
be familiar with the terms of the protective order?          they would be given to whom when they came in?
{A} I don't know. {Q} Any protective order                   {A} I wouldn't know if it was hand-carried. {Q}
involving non-destruction of electronic mail, who            There was no instruction to hand them to you? {A}
would be responsible? {A} I do not know. {Q} But it          No. {Q} Or to Ms. Anderson? {A} No. {Q} Or her
wouldn't be you? {A} Absolutely not. I have a                successor as chief of staff? {A} I'm not aware of any
written recusal of all matters dealing with                  instruction. {Q} In other words, there's no
information technology. {Q} You have a computer at           gatekeeper, no director to Mr. Swann?
your desk now, correct? {A} Correct. {Q} And you             83/     {A} If someone walked in and had a private
have had it throughout the entire period we're talking       meeting with Mr. Swann and handed him a piece of
about from '92 to '93, on up? {A} Uh-huh. {Q} Do             correspondence, I would have no knowledge of it.
you delete your own electronic mail? {A} I can erase         {Q} If a messenger came in with a document and
a note. {Q} Have you done it? {A} Sure. {Q} In the           said, "I have a document for Mr. Swann," would it go
'92-'93 time frame? {A} Sure.                                to whom? {A} If it was a piece of mail, it would

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correspondence system; otherwise, it would go in to           arrangement … (By … the administrator …
Mr. Swann … familiar with the Freedom Program,
Space Station Program … the Freedom Program                   __86/ … it was … a big part of the GOHS budget …
existed … there were a lot of Aerospace contractors
… there was a facility out at Alexandria                      __87/ … Mr. Abbey … that the first time …
                                                              discussed it with him …
__84/ … They were working on the Space Station
Freedom Program … I had heard the name …                      __88/ … - made … other lawyers … Mr. Cooley …
                                                              Not … to him …
__85/    … about the present Space Station …

come in through the correspondence system;                    86/ {Q} Do you know what, during this time frame,
otherwise, it would go in to Mr. Swann. {Q}                   portion of the GOHS budget the Space Station
Directly? {A} I don't recall. {Q} Nobody would                represented? {A} No. {Q} Do you recall if it was
review it? {A} I don't recall a specific incidence. I'm       major? {A} I said I did not recall. {Q} You don't
not sure that that ever even happened, quite frankly.         even know if it was major? {A} It was certainly a big
{Q} During '92, '93, were you familiar with the               part of the GOHS budget. {Q} Since this case was
Freedom Program, Space Station Program? {A} I                 filed over the last, I guess - well, let's say in the last
know the Freedom Program existed. I can't say that I          six years, have you discussed it with Mr. Swann?
was terribly familiar with it. {Q} Did you know who           MR. CAYRNES: Object to that question as
the contractors were? {A} I knew that there were a            ambiguous. Can you rephrase that? {Q} (By Mr.
lot of Aerospace contractors. {Q} Did you know                Palmer) Have you discussed this case with Mr.
what Alexandria was? {A} I knew that there was a              Swann any time over the last six years? {A} No. {Q}
facility out at Alexandria.                                   Discussed it with Mr. Abbey? MR. CAYRNES: I
84/ {Q} Do you know what its purpose was? {A}                 object to your referring to "this case" in connection
They were working on the Space Station Freedom                with the last six years because this case was not filed
Program. {Q} Do you know who Bob Hewitt is? {A}               six years ago. It was filed about a year ago. There
I had heard the name. {Q} Did you know what the               was no case.
present contractual arrangement was for that program          87/ {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) Since May of 1997, have
at that time? {A} No. {Q} Now you're a Procurement            you discussed this case with Mr. Swann? {A} No.
person - {A} Yes. {Q} - in an executive job with the          {Q} Mr. Abbey? {A} Yes. {Q} What was that
largest program in the agency at the time, and you            discussion? {A} I said, "Mr. Abbey, I've been called
didn't know how it was structured. Is that your               to give a deposition." {Q} Was that the first time you
testimony? MR. CAYRNES: Object to the - what's                discussed it with him? {A} Yes. {Q} Had he ever
the question? {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) Is that your                discussed it with you prior to that? {A} No. {Q} And
testimony, that you didn't know how it was                    what did he say? MR. CAYRNES: The answer to the
structured? {A} I did not know the specific structure         question was "no," and you're asking what did he
of all the contracts involving Space Station Freedom.         say? MR. PALMER: Well, she told him that she had
{Q} Did you know the general structure?                       been called for a deposition. {Q} (By Mr. Palmer)
85/ {A} In a very, very broad sense perhaps. {Q}              What did he say? {A} He said, "Oh." {Q} And that
Did you know who the four prime contractors were?             was all?
{A} No. {Q} Do you know anything about the                    88/ {A} He may have said - made - I believe I said,
present Space Station Program's arrangement? {A}              "I have talked to Mr. Cayrnes about it, and he has
Yes. {Q} Do you know how in '92-'93 time frame the            told me to be forthright and honest." {Q} Did you
Space Station Program ranked in Mr. Swann's                   talk to any other lawyers about it other than Mr.
priorities as administrator? {A} He did not tell me.          Cayrnes? {A} Mr. Cooley. {Q} Any others? {A} No.
{Q} From the correspondence could you tell? MR.               {Q} Not Mr. Forbes? {A} No. I've never talked to
CAYRNES: You're asking for an opinion? {Q} (By                him. {Q} Mr. Marie? {A} Never talked to him about
Mr. Palmer) I'm asking if from the correspondence             this case. {Q} Mr. Grammercy? {A} No. {Q} What
you can tell that there was a lot of activity involving       about Mr. Minuet? Have you talked to him about this
the Space Station? MR. CAYRNES: That's a                      case? {A} No. {Q} Have you talked to anyone at
different question. {A} I don't recall how much               Aerobus about this case? {A} No. {Q} Or to former
correspondence was related to Space Station, and that         Rhender? {A} No. {Q} Or Merkel? {A} Let's make
might not correctly indicate the interest in the              it short. I've told you everything I've talked about.
program. {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) By the administrator?            {Q} Have you read any newspaper articles or
{A} Correct.                                                  magazine articles about this case?

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__89/ … talked to those people …
                                                               __92/ … I talked to my predecessor … Dick Simons
__90/ …                                                        … Charlene DeChaum … a predecessor in the
                                                               position
__91/ …
                                                               __93/ I did not talk to her about the job … Dick
89/ {A} No. {Q} When I'm saying talked to these                Simons described the job to me … a go-for … he was
people, I include in that exchange of faxes, e-mail, or        not the administrator. He was the executive assistant
any other means of communication. Does your                    … average day … Ten to twelve hours …
answer include those means of communication as
well? {A} No. {Q} Okay. What - {A} I sent an e-
mail to a gentleman this morning saying: "Sorry I
haven't gotten back to you. I won't be able to meet            think we ought to do so. I say this because I want you
with you today. I have to go give a deposition." And           to be on notice. I don't want at the end of the day to
that - {Q} To none of those people that I talked - {A}         say, "Well, you know, we're out of here. You wasted
No, I haven't talked to those people. {Q} Okay. What           your time." I'm telling you now you've been wasting
I'm going to do now at this point is we'll go off the          a lot of time, in my view, and I have to say insofar as
record and take a quick lunch break. (Noon Recess)             it wastes my time or the time of any other
MR. CAYRNES: Before we proceed with the                        government official, and so I'm putting you on notice
questioning, now that we've come back from this                now that we're not going to sit through this
break, I want to state something for the record.               indefinitely.
90/ In this case, on a number of occasions the judge           92/     MR. PALMER: Nice speech. Okay. Perhaps
has expressed a concern about the large amount of              you'll instruct her to be more forthcoming and move
discovery that the plaintiff contemplates taking and           on. MR. CAYRNES: Excuse me. She's been
how, if at all, this discovery is leading to                   forthcoming with every single question that you've
substantiating anything on the plaintiff's position on         asked. If she doesn't know the answer to a question,
the merits of this case. Now, so far today, I don't            the only forthcoming answer she can give is she
think we've had a single question all morning that             doesn't know. If you ask a question that's vague or
dealt with the merits of the case or any of the                unclear, it's your responsibility to couch the question
allegations in the complaint. We've had a lot of               correctly. She has been as forthcoming as possible
background questions in excruciating detail about              and as forthcoming as necessary. {Q} (By Mr.
how this witness went about her duties when she was            Palmer) Before taking the executive assistant's job,
in a GS-08, GS-09 developmental position. We've                did you talk to anyone about the job, a predecessor
had various other questions of this kind of an                 perhaps in that job? {A} I talked to my predecessor,
extremely background sort, and it's eaten up the               yes. {Q} Who was that? {A} Dick Simons. {Q} And
whole morning with that and have yet to come to                did you talk to anyone else, predecessors in that job?
anything relating to the issues. Now, this is a burden         {A} I believe that Charlene DeChaum may have been
on us. I'm busy; I've got a heavy case load. The               a predecessor in the position.
witness is busy; she's got a lot of other work to do for       93/ I did not talk to her about the job. {Q} Did they
GOHS besides sitting in this deposition.                       describe the position to you? {A} Dick Simons
91/     We're prepared to do our responsibility and            described the job to me. {Q} Okay. What was your
respond to reasonable discovery, but we're just not            understanding of what he said? {A} In essence,
going to be sitting and be held captive here while             you're a go-for. {Q} Did he give - are you aware
there's question after question that seems to be going         whether or not Mr. Swann uses his executive
nowhere. You can decide what's worth your while                assistants in a manner different from any other
and what's not, but it's a burden on us, too, and we           administrator? {A} Administrator of GOHS? {Q}
don't have to sit through this indefinitely. I assume          Correct. {A} I have no knowledge of any other
that we're soon going to get to the point in this. I           administrators. {Q} So Dick Simons was
cannot promise - if you keep on with all this                  administrator to Swann? {A} Excuse me? {Q} I
background line of questioning, I cannot promise that          mean executive assistant to Swann? {A} No, he was
at the end of the day if you haven't finished what you         not the administrator. He was the executive assistant.
really need to do that we're going to be back here             {Q} Sorry, I misspoke on that. While you were there
tomorrow or as long as you think it might take. This           as executive assistant, how long was your average
deposition could be finished within the next couple of         day? {A} Ten to twelve hours, depending on the
hours at most, I think, if we come to the point. We            nature of the meetings for the day and the work that
have not even started coming to the point yet here. I          was on the plate.

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__94/ … during the week … I frequently worked on
weekends … It probably averaged three to … five              __97/ … asked me for a copy … sent them all to him
weekends a month … check the record … I gave                 … I had them in my desk … in a personal file …
them to Jay Cooley …                                         provided everything … in my files on the Space
                                                             Station Program … personal files …
__95/ …
                                                             __98/ … In Washington …
__96/ …
                                                             __99/ … see up in paragraph "Present … there …
94/ {Q} And that was five days a week? {A} That
was during the week, and then I frequently worked            you an answer on that, I'll do that. {Q} (By Mr.
on weekends. {Q} Was that once a month, twice a              Palmer) Has anyone asked you to look for documents
month, or once a quarter? {A} That I worked on               related to the July 22nd CEO meeting - {A} Yes.
weekends? {Q} Yes. {A} It probably averaged three            {Q} - other than what you just described in your
to four weekends a month, sometimes five weekends            notes before the break?
a month. {Q} And is it fair to say you worked on the         97/ {A} The only person that ever asked me for a
red and blue teams? {A} No, I did not work on those          copy of it was James Marie. {Q} And you sent them
teams. {Q} You didn't work on those teams. Now,              all to him? {A} Correct. {Q} And that was your
refresh my recollection. Did you tell me what                notes? {A} Yes. {Q} Where were those notes kept?
documents you reviewed before coming here today              {A} I had them in my desk. {Q} In a special file?
for this deposition? {A} You'd have to check the             {A} No. {Q} In any personal file? {A} It was in a
record. {Q} Did you? {A} Did I? {Q} What did you             personal file. {Q} Were there any other notes in that
review? {A} I looked at the documents that I had in          file that related to the CEO meeting? {A} No. {Q}
my files. {Q} And those files are where? {A} I gave          You've been asked for your personal files related to
them to Jay Cooley. {Q} Okay.                                the Freedom Program by Mr. Marie? {A} I don't
95/ MR. PALMER: Have all those documents been                know that I've been asked specifically for my
produced to us? COOLEY: Everything she's given to            documents related to the Freedom Program, but I've
my office have been sent to our headquarters for             provided everything I had in my files on the Space
production. MR. PALMER: Have they been                       Station Program. {Q} Your personal files as well?
produced, Steven? MR. CAYRNES: I assume so.                  {A} Yes. {Q} You indicated that you went to
You know, some of the production went through                Washington in 1992 on this developmental program.
James Marie. MR. PALMER: Will you check on that              Did you become familiar with the Freedom Program
for me, please? MR. CAYRNES: I can tell you we               immediately, or were you already familiar with it?
acted consistently with our responses to the request         98/ {A} I was not familiar with it other than that it
for production of documents. So if there were                was a Space Station Program. I'm not certain that I
documents that were requested previously within the          could say I became very familiar with it when I was
same scope as what's requested here - and I think            up there. {Q} In Washington? {A} Correct. MR.
they all overlap - and if we didn't object or say they       PALMER: Let's give her a document, which we'll
didn't exist, then we either produced them or we             mark as Exhibit 3. (Trindle Exhibit No. 3 marked for
made them available. I mean, a lot of the documents          identification) MR. PALMER: Off the record.
were reviewed on site. MR. PALMER: Will you                  (Discussion off the record) {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) Are
check to see if they were all made available? That's         these your notes? {A} I don't recall that these are my
all I'm asking.                                              notes at all. {Q} Refer, please, to Bates Page No.
96/ MR. CAYRNES: I can double-check, but we                  316. That's the Bates number, the last three, at the
responded to your request. MR. PALMER: Just                  bottom of the page. {A} Excuse me? {Q} The last
check for me, okay? MR. CAYRNES: I'll take that              three page numbers. {A} It's 316, Page 1? {Q} That's
under advisement. I don't know how many times I              the first page, correct.
can repeat the same tasks just because you've asked          99/     Do you see up in paragraph "Present:"? {A}
for it. By the way, it's not that simple because this        Yes. {Q} You're present? {A} I see that. {Q} Do you
involves finding out these various categories of             recall who took these notes if you didn't? {A} No, I
documents, you know, what was sent over to you and           don't. MR. CAYRNES: I might note for the record
hand-delivered to you, what was at headquarters,             that in referring to these notes, they don't even look
what was at some other site where you expected               anything like notes on the face of the document. {Q}
documents. I shouldn't have to go and track this             (By Mr. Palmer) Look at Bates 333 about halfway
process over again just because you're asking it now.        down the file. Okay. Do you see under those present
But if I can, you know, with reasonable effort give          in these minutes or notes, whatever you want to call

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                                                              selection … Tom O'Neil … had a panel make a
__100/ … the 333 Bates stamp number … - this says             selection …
I was there …
                                                              __103/ … there were … discussions about the
__101/ … were not in attendance … I am not …                  transition or how moving to a single prime could be
                                                              accomplished …
__102/ … Tom O'Neil chaired a panel that made the
                                                              __104/ … develop a statement of work …
them, that you were there as well? {A} Yes, I do.
{Q} Were these your product? MR. CAYRNES:                     __105/ … - it has a 11-05-03 at the top and Bates …
When you say "these," you're referring to what? {Q}
(By Mr. Palmer) Bates Page 333 and 334 and                    recollection is that Tom O'Neil chaired a panel that
associated attachments. {A} I don't recall that these         made the selection. {Q} So it was not personally
are my notes.                                                 made by Mr. Swann? {A} My recollection is that
100/      {Q} Do you draw any distinction between             Tom O'Neil made the selection as part of a panel - he
notes and minutes? {A} For purposes of this? {Q}              had a panel make a selection. {Q} As opposed to a
Yes. {A} I don't recall that I took these minutes or          recommendation, he actually made a selection? {A} I
recorded these or typed them up. {Q} And you're               do not recall specifically. {Q} I want you to note, if
referring to the 333 Bates stamp number? {A}                  you would, please, the format of this document. Is
Correct. {Q} Would you note for me, please, that 316          this a standard GOHS format that was used here?
and 333 are dated the same day with different                 {A} I don't know.
attendees? Do you have any recollection as to the             103/ {Q} Does it conform to the format that was
difference between the two? {A} I don't recall either         used when you were there at headquarters? {A} I'm
of these meetings, frankly. {Q} But you were there?           not aware of any specific format for something like
{A} The - this says I was there. I do not recall a            this. {Q} Like this Exhibit 5? Were you on the panel
specific. {Q} Do you have any reason to believe you           involved in the selection of single prime? {A} No.
were not there? {A} I have no reason to believe that I        {Q} Were you at any of the meetings? {A} I don't
was not there, but I can't attest to it. I don't recall       recall being at any of their meetings. {Q} Do you
being there. {Q} So if it says you were there, you            recall any discussion about the Procurement method
were probably there? MR. CAYRNES: Asked and                   that would be used to get to a single prime? {A} I
answered. {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) Correct?                        remember that there were a number of discussions
101/        MR. CAYRNES: Objection; asked and                 about the transition or how moving to a single prime
answered. {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) Is it GOHS's practice           could be accomplished. {Q} Were you involved in
to list people as attendees who were not in                   any of them? {A} Was I a participant in the
attendance? {A} I am not - of course not. {Q} Thank           discussion? No. {Q} Were you present for any of
you. Let's look and see. This will be 4. (Trindle             them? {A} On occasion. {Q} Did it involve Mr.
Exhibit No. 4 marked for identification) {Q} I'll now         Swann? {A} They may have. {Q} Or Mr. Abbey?
show you a document which has been marked as                  {A} They may have.
Exhibit 4. The Bates number at the bottom of the              104/          (Trindle Exhibit No. 6 marked for
page is 166. Were you present for this meeting? {A}           identification) {Q} While you're perusing that
I don't recall this at all. {Q} Could these be your           Exhibit 6, do you recall whose responsibility it was to
notes? {A} I don't recall that they were or were not.         develop the statement of work for the single prime?
{Q} Look at the handwriting to the left of the                {A} No, I don't recall. {Q} Who would it be in your
numerals under "Termination Costs." Do you                    experience at that time? {A} It would be unfair of me
recognize that handwriting? {A} No, I don't. {Q} Is it        to suppose anything. {Q} It's an action item, correct?
yours? {A} It does not look like my handwriting.              {A} This? {Q} No. I mean, to develop a statement of
MR. PALMER: This is 5.                                        work would be an action item? {A} Somebody would
102/          (Trindle Exhibit No. 5 marked for               have to develop a statement of work. {Q} Where
identification) {Q} I'll show you a document that's           would that fall in the organization as you were
been marked as Exhibit 5. Have you ever seen this             familiar with it in 1992 and '93? {A} I do not know.
document? {A} I don't recall seeing it. {Q} Do you            {Q} Look at No. 6. MR. CAYRNES: Paragraph No.
know if Mr. Swann ever saw it? {A} I don't recall             6, page, exhibit? MR. PALMER: Exhibit. {A} Is that
seeing it myself. I wouldn't remember if Mr. Swann            this one? {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) That's the one, yes.
saw it, either. {Q} Is it the type of document that he        105/ Tell me, if you would - it has a 11-05-03 at the
would see? {A} I would not know. {Q} Did he make              top and Bates No. 23801 and 23802 on the next page.
the selection on the single prime? {A} My                     {A} Uh-huh. {Q} Do you know if you or Mr. Swann

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23801 and 23802 …
                                                               __108/ … the D and F had to go to Congress …
__106/ … like … look at this document and ask if …
                                                               __109/ … 417 to 421 … of the one that was in July
__107/ …                                                       that everyone has referred to continually as "the CEO
                                                               meeting." Mr. Swann … had meetings dealing with
ever saw this document? {A} I do not know whether              metrics where he met with multiple contractors …
Mr. Swann saw it or not. I do not recall whether I             there were … in those meetings
saw it or not. {Q} Do you know who would have
prepared this? {A} No, I do not. {Q} Given your                __110/   … Fortune 100 companies … Aerospace
knowledge of the functional areas within GOHS,
what organization would have responsibility to                 108/      {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) All I want are the
develop this kind of time line? {A} I do not know.             general facts. {A} The only thing I recall - and I may
{Q} Do you have any understanding of the status of             be incorrect in my recollection - was that the D and F
the Space Station Program within the agency? Was               had to go to Congress. MR. PALMER: But, just for
there a feeling that this was a program that was               the record, I want to say I don't recognize the
possibly going to lose support from Congress? MR.              deliberative process. MR. CAYRNES: As long as the
CAYRNES: Objection; the question is vague. To the              Court does, it doesn't matter. MR. PALMER: Well, it
extent that it isn't vague, the government's already           doesn't. It's not in the Rules. MR. CAYRNES: It's in
answered that in written discovery.                            the cases. MR. PALMER: What's next? MR.
106/ {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) What were the rumors in               CAYRNES: You know they're in the cases. You
the halls? {A} About? {Q} In '92-'93 on whether or             know the cases. MR. PALMER: Steven - MR.
not Congress would continue to support the program?            CAYRNES: All right. We'll decide it when we have
{A} I don't know what the rumors in the hallways               to. (Trindle Exhibit No. 8 marked for identification)
were. {Q} This is No. 7, I believe. Exhibit 7. (Trindle        {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) I'll show you a document that's
Exhibit No. 7 marked for identification) {Q} I'd like          been marked as Exhibit 8. I'll ask you if you're
you to take a look at this document and ask if you             familiar with it. {A} Is that this one? {Q} Yes.
recognize it. {A} No, I don't. {Q} Do you recall any           109/ It's Bates - {A} I just don't see Exhibit 8 on it.
discussion about the determination and finding                 {Q} - Nos. 417 through 420 - 421, excuse me. It's
necessary to go to a single contract prime? {A} I              417 to 421. {A} Uh-huh. {Q} Do you recognize this?
don't recall any specific discussion. {Q} What in              {A} No, I don't. {Q} Do you know if Mr. Swann ever
general do you recall? MR. CAYRNES: I would                    saw this? {A} I don't remember it, and I don't know if
object at this point. If you're going to ask - I mean, I       Mr. Swann saw it. {Q} Do you know how many
don't know whether the witness knows the precise               times Mr. Swann met with chief executive officers of
answer to the question you're asking. But there is a           major corporations - {A} No. {Q} - as a group? {A}
deliberative process privilege that's applicable to            No. {Q} During your time as executive assistant,
internal deliberations on policy-making matters by             how many times did he meet with them? {A} I don't
the government.                                                know. I didn't count. {Q} So it was more than one?
107/       To the extent that you're asking about the          {A} I don't know. {Q} You know of one, though?
content of these internal deliberations, I'd have to           {A} I know of the one that was in July that everyone
object and instruct the witness not to answer on the           has referred to continually as "the CEO meeting." Mr.
grounds of deliberative process privilege. {Q} (By             Swann also had meetings dealing with metrics where
Mr. Palmer) What discussions in general did you hear           he met with multiple contractors, and I assume there
about the D and M? MR. CAYRNES: Are you asking                 were a number of CEO's in those meetings.
the substance of discussions or subject? MR.                   110/ {Q} Fortune 100 companies? {A} Aerospace
PALMER: Substance. I don't need a verbatim. MR.                contractors. {Q} Say it again. {A} Aerospace
CAYRNES: Well, again, if you're asking about                   contractors. {Q} But not Fortune 100 aerospace? {A}
recommendations that were made within agency on                I don't know what companies are Fortune 100 nor
policy matters relating to this subject, I would               500. I'm not in the habit of reading that magazine.
instruct the witness not to answer. {Q} (By Mr.                {Q} What purposes would he meet with Aerospace
Palmer) Go ahead and tell me. MR. CAYRNES: If                  contractors for? {A} The running of GOHS and its
it's strictly factual; otherwise, don't. {Q} (By Mr.           programs. {Q} And to seek their input? MR.
Palmer) All I want to know is what was said. That's a          CAYRNES: You're getting off on a tangent here.
factual matter. Go ahead. MR. CAYRNES: If what                 You can do that a little bit, but you really are. {Q}
was said was factual, yes. If what was said was                (By Mr. Palmer) Seek their input? {A} It depended
recommendations, then it's not.                                on the subject matter. {Q} Was it the usual thing to

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contractors … Aerospace contractors … The running            __113/ … a member of the Synthesis Group … She
of GOHS and its programs … Was … the usual thing             eventually became, and … the head of - the associate
to meet with the … of Fortune 100, 500 … Define              administrator for associate … administrator for
those companies …                                            Procurement …

__111/ … One was the meeting that … continually              __114/     … there were some other Anns at
… referred to as "the CEO meeting … that he met              headquarters … there was a transition team … At
with a group of contractors regarding contractor             GOHS headquarters … the legal office … Code H …
metrics … Generic …                                          the Office of Procurement

__112/ … a briefing … was given to Mr. Swann … I             __115/ … the … who was associate administrator
was present … - '89 to '92 … not that full-time … I
worked for her … she left the Bobson Space Center            113/ I believe she went to become a member of the
… she left … she became …                                    Synthesis Group. {Q} Which was what? {A} I don't
                                                             know. {Q} Was it a Procurement function? {A} I
                                                             don't recall. {Q} Do you recall if she worked in
                                                             Procurement at all while she was at headquarters?
                                                             {A} At all when she was at headquarters? {Q} Yes.
meet with the CEO's of Fortune 100, 500, CEO's?              {A} Yes. She eventually became, and continues to
{A} Define those companies. I don't know. Was it his         be, the head of - the associate administrator for
habit of meeting with CEO's individually or as a             associate - associate administrator for Procurement.
group?                                                       {Q} Do you know if Mr. Swann ever saw this
111/ {Q} Aerobus, Rhender-Douglas - {A} I have               document? {A} I do not know. {Q} Are you familiar
told you of the times that I'm aware. One was the            with the substance of the matters covered by this
meeting that is continually being referred to as "the        document? {A} Well, I can tell you what it looks like
CEO meeting," and I also know that he met with a             it is, but I'm not familiar with the content of it at all.
group of contractors regarding contractor metrics.           {Q} Not from your review of the correspondence in
{Q} Okay. On a given program or just in general?             the administrator's office? {A} No. {Q} Do you
{A} Generic. {Q} Was it his practice to meet with all        know who Ann is who's referenced at the top here?
CEO's on a given program? {A} Not to my                      114/       {A} I do not know specifically what Ann
recollection. {Q} I'll now show you a document that's        they're referring to. {Q} Were there other Anns other
been marked as Exhibit 9. (Trindle Exhibit No. 9             than Ann Rice? {A} There was Ann Rice, and I'm
marked for identification) {Q} It comprises Bates            not certain that there were - well, there were some
No., last three numbers, 422 through 427 and ask if          other Anns at headquarters. {Q} In Procurement?
you can take a look at that, please, Ms. Trindle. Have       {A} I don't recall. {Q} Are you familiar with the
you ever seen this document? {A} I don't recall              transition team from Freedom to Alpha, now
seeing it. {Q} Is it the kind of document that you           International Space Station? {A} I know there was a
would have seen in your duties as executive                  transition team. {Q} Do you know how it developed
assistant? {A} I don't recall seeing this document.          transition to redesign to the International Space
112/ {Q} Is this the kind of presentation you would          Station? {A} I can't say that I'm familiar with how it
have kept in those files that you referred to earlier?       developed. (Trindle Exhibit No. 11 marked for
{A} If it was a briefing that was given to Mr. Swann,        identification) {Q} I'll show you a document that I
yes. I'm sure I was present. {Q} Now I'll show you a         believe is marked Exhibit 11. Can you tell me what
document that is No. 10. (Trindle Exhibit No. 10             Code G is at headquarters? {A} At GOHS
marked for identification) {Q} I'll ask you if you           headquarters, it's the legal office. {Q} And Code H?
have ever seen this. {A} I don't recall seeing it. {Q}       {A} It's the Office of Procurement.
Are you familiar with it? {A} No. {Q} Now, you               115/      {Q} And during the 1992-1993 time frame,
worked for Ann Rice, correct? {A} When? {Q} In               who was associate administrator for Procurement?
1992 - '89 to '92? {A} No, not that full-time. {Q}           {A} I'm not certain of who was initially. Bo Smith
And you testified that - {A} That I worked for her           was the head of Procurement for some period of time,
until she left the Bobson Space Center. {Q} Which            but I believe he left. He left, but I'm not sure when. I
you said was in 1992? {A} No, I did not. I said she          believe that Helene Anderson was brought in as the
left sometime between that period, and I'm not               head of Procurement, and then eventually Ann Rice
familiar with when she left. {Q} Okay. And she               became the head of Procurement. {Q} Now, when
became what when she left? {A} I'm not sure what             did that job become a deputy administrator position?
her position was.                                            {A} Which job? {Q} The Procurement job. MR.

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for Procurement … he left … Helene Anderson was              __118/ … For … The Space Station Redesign … He
brought in as the head of Procurement … eventually           was kept aware of the process … he provided
Ann Rice became the head of Procurement …                    feedback … He frequently met with the … redesign
                                                             … It was … people on the Redesign team … Did …
__116/ … are these … matters that … him to be                meet when Jamison Minuet … Pam Vonnegut … - at
briefed on … not … for this document. He was in              that level, fairly high level … Ann Rice, Porter
frequent discussions with people involving the               Bonneville, and others … 529 and 530 …
redesign of the Space Station … Mr. Roberts, Mr.
Abbey … It would include them …                              __119/ … The meetings that I attended where he
                                                             was discussing the redesign, he was looking at it …
__117/ … In Washington or Cheyenne, Washington               from a technical standpoint … Engineering … There
state … I … never been in Washington … the                   were three different teams who were working
Options A, B, and C … three options … were                   different options for the redesign … one … was
developed                                                    building a great big huge … tin can, a long tube,
                                                             which was a total redesign that would have different
                                                             floors in it

                                                             __120/ They would tell him what that design looked
CAYRNES: Was that in evidence that that happened?
{Q} (By Mr. Palmer) As opposed to an assistant               118/       {Q} For what? {A} The Space Station
administrative position? {A} I'm not aware that it           Redesign. {Q} And Mr. Swann participated in that
was ever - it has been a deputy administrator job. {Q}       process to your knowledge? {A} He was kept aware
Okay. All right. Would you take a look, please, at           of the process, and he provided feedback. {Q} By
Exhibit 11. {A} Is that this one? {Q} Yes. {A} Uh-           whom was he kept aware? {A} He frequently met
huh.                                                         with the people who were doing the redesign. {Q}
116/ {Q} And do you know if Mr. Swann attended               And that would be Jamison Minuet? {A} It was a
this meeting? {A} I'm not certain this was a meeting.        number of people on the Redesign team. {Q} Did he
{Q} Well, was he familiar with the matters here? {A}         meet when Jamison Minuet? {A} Yes. {Q} And Pam
I do not know. {Q} Is this the kind of thing that he         Vonnegut? {A} Yes, and others. {Q} And who else
would be briefed, in your experience as executive            in that - at that level, fairly high level? {A} Simon
assistant? MR. CAYRNES: It's vague. You asked is             Spiwack. {Q} Ann Rice? {A} Ann Rice, Porter
this the kind of thing that he would be briefed? {Q}         Bonneville, and others. {Q} Would you take a look at
(By Mr. Palmer) The matters raised in this document,         the slides attached here? {A} That's the back two
are these types of matters that you would expect him         pages? {Q} Yes, 529 and 530. {A} Uh-huh.
to be briefed on? {A} I'm not going to speak                 119/ {Q} Do you know if these are from a briefing
specifically for this document. He was in frequent           that the administrator may have received on these
discussions with people involving the redesign of the        matters? {A} I don't know. I don't recall ever seeing
Space Station. {Q} Do you recall whether those               them. {Q} Would this be the type of thing that you
people - principally Mr. Abbey? {A} Whether those            were talking about that he would have been advised
people were Mr. Abbey? {Q} That he was frequently            of in the meetings, referenced people? {A} No. {Q}
involved in discussions, would be Mr. Roberts, Mr.           Why do you say "no"? {A} The meetings that I
Abbey? {A} It would include them. {Q} Mr. Hewitt?            attended where he was discussing the redesign, he
117/     {A} I don't recall him ever being a part of         was looking at it primarily from a technical
discussions. {Q} Any contractor personnel? {A} I             standpoint. {Q} Technical - scientific technical? {A}
don't recall that there were meetings with contractor        Engineering. {Q} Engineering. I'm not an engineer
personnel regarding redesign. {Q} In Washington or           myself, so I'm interested to know what kinds of
Cheyenne, Washington state? {A} I would not know.            things were talked about. Are we talking about
I've never been in Washington. {Q} State? {A} State.         having more - {A} There were three different teams
{Q} Exhibit 12? {A} Is that 4528? {Q} Correct, and           who were working different options for the redesign.
29 and 30. (Trindle Exhibit No. 12 marked for                I don't recall the specific criteria that were given to
identification) {Q} Are you familiar with this               each team. I remember that one of the options, for
document that's been marked as Exhibit 12? {A}               example, was building a great big huge, if you will,
That's 4528? {Q} Correct, and 29 and 30. Are you             tin can, a long tube, which was a total redesign that
familiar with this document? {A} No, I'm not. {Q}            would have different floors in it.
Are you familiar with the Options A, B, and C? {A} I         120/ They would tell him what that design looked
know there were three options that were developed.           like, and he would comment on it from an

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like … he would comment on it from an engineering
standpoint. He was an engineering genius in my mind              __123/ … The Redesign team, it was not their job to
… he would offer comments like … what … a jitter                 make any assumptions about contractors … to plan
analysis … I have no idea … a large conference room              … three different designs …
on the 9th floor of the GOHS building … a place …
                                                                 __124/ … C had different effects on the contractors
__121/ … if a committee … sent questions down to                 … If one was selected, each one would have a
the agency … Questions generally came out of a                   different result … referred to it as a man in a can …
hearing … 6231 … Someone in Legislative Affairs                  the truss contractor would be out of a job … not …
… would …                                                        speculate … that his discussions were more along
                                                                 technical lines and cost lines … international partners
__122/ …
                                                                 __125/ … She … one of them …
engineering standpoint. He was an engineering
genius in my mind, and he would offer comments                   {Q} I'll show you a document now that's marked as
like, "Have you planned for a jitter analysis?" {Q}              Exhibit 15 and ask you if you would refer to Page 2
Which is what? What's a jitter analysis? {A} I have              of it, Bates No. 359. {A} Uh-huh. {Q} Note under
no idea. {Q} Do you recognize the handwriting on                 the caption "End Of The Road For Adams?"
528? {A} No, I don't. {Q} It's not yours? {A} It's not           123/ "The SRT's plans also appear to end Adams's
mine. {Q} Where is the Program Review Center, the                long history of the Space Station Program," that
Administrators Program Review Center? {A} It's a                 sentence? {A} Uh-huh. {Q} Do you recall any
large conference room on the 9th floor of the GOHS               discussion with Mr. Swann about anyone at the SRT?
building, at least the one I'm familiar with. {Q} It's           MR. CAYRNES: What is this referring to? MR.
not a specific organization? It's just a place? {A}              PALMER: This article. {A} No. This article, I don't
Correct. That's my knowledge. {Q} Okay. I'll show                recall anything in this article. {Q} (By Mr. Palmer)
you a document that's marked as Exhibit 13.                      The fact that the SRT's proposed elimination of
121/         (Trindle Exhibit No. 13 marked for                  Adams from the program? MR. CAYRNES: You're
identification) {Q} And I'll ask you if you've ever              assuming a fact not in evidence. That's not a fact in
seen this document. {A} I don't recall seeing it. {Q}            evidence. {A} The Redesign team, it was not their
During your period as executive assistant to Mr.                 job to make any assumptions about contractors. {Q}
Swann, would congressional questions be routed                   (By Mr. Palmer) It was their job, however, to plan the
through you through the Legislative or otherwise?                redesign, correct? {A} To offer three different
{A} You mean if there was a hearing and they                     designs. {Q} And whichever one, A, B, or C, would
submitted questions as part of the hearing? {Q} Or if            impact the contractors, correct? MR. CAYRNES:
a committee just sent questions down to the agency?              You're asking for an opinion?
{A} I don't recall committee ever just sending                   124/ {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) I'm asking for a factual
questions. Questions generally came out of a hearing.            statement. {A} Ask your question again, please. {Q}
{Q} Okay. Take a look at 631, these questions. {A}               The Options A, B, and C had different effects on the
6231? {Q} It's 6231, correct. {A} Uh-huh. {Q} Do                 contractors, did they not? {A} If one was selected,
you know the origin of - was this a hearing at the               each one would have a different result. {Q} For
Subcommittee on Science Technology and Space?                    example, if Option C, the man in the can that you
{A} I don't know. {Q} Who would know whether or                  referred to earlier - {A} You referred to it as a man in
not that was the case? {A} Someone in Legislative                a can. {Q} Well, the long can, whatever it was, that
Affairs, I would assume.                                         would appear to eliminate trusses, correct? {A} I'm
122/         (Trindle Exhibit No. 14 marked for                  not technical. I couldn't attest. {Q} Well, then the
identification) {Q} I'll show you a document that's              truss contractor would be out of a job, wouldn't he?
been marked as Exhibit 14 and ask you if you read                {A} One might assume that, but I'm not going to
SPACE STATION NEWS of this kind - {A} I don't                    speculate. {Q} Did anyone ever brief the
recall ever seeing it. {Q} - in June of '93? Do you              administrator on the impact on the various Freedom
recall any discussion about information contained in             contractors of the Options A, B, or C? {A} I don't
the SPACE STATION NEWS? {A} I don't recall                       recall specifically. {Q} If they had, would you know?
SPACE STATION NEWS. {Q} Was this one of the                      {A} Probably. I believe that his discussions were
publications, to your knowledge, that was in the                 more along technical lines and cost lines, as well as
packet that Mr. Swann was - {A} In the reading                   international partners.
clips? I don't recall ever seeing it in the reading clips.       125/         (Trindle Exhibit No. 16 marked for
(Trindle Exhibit No. 15 marked for identification)               identification) {Q} Take a look, please, at the

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                                                            …
__126/ …
                                                            __128/ … Ed Grammercy and Ann Rice … attended
__127/ … job … his secretary may have … Did …               the meeting … accompanied Mr. Swann to meetings
assist him in preparing for that meeting … I did not        … he asked me to be there …

document that I've handed you that's been marked as         __129/ … I maintained those files … I was working
Exhibit 16. It's another report from SPACE                  for the administrator …
BUSINESS NEWS. Are you familiar with that
publication? {A} No, I'm not. {Q} Are you familiar          __130/ … ask … would attend …
with the fast-track award authority that's referenced
here that GOHS was seeking for the single prime?            128/       {A} No, I don't, other than perhaps Ed
{A} I don't recall anything called "fast-track award"       Grammercy and Ann Rice. {Q} What time did you
specifically. {Q} Do you recall anything about the          first become aware there would be such a meeting?
award of the single prime and methodology to be             {A} I don't recall. {Q} You attended the meeting,
used? {A} Not specifically. {Q} Who would have              though, didn't you? {A} Yes. {Q} Do you know why
briefed the administrator on the Procurement means          you attended the meeting? {A} I often accompanied
of accomplishing the transition to a single prime?          Mr. Swann to meetings, and he asked me to be there.
{A} It could have been a variety of people. {Q} Who         (Trindle Exhibit No. 18 marked for identification)
would have primary responsibility? {A} I can't say. I       {Q} I'll show you a document that's been marked as
don't know. {Q} Would Ann Rice principally do               Exhibit 18 and ask you if this represents a slide show
that? {A} She might have been one of them. {Q}              given to Mr. Swann. {A} I can't say for certain, but it
Would she delegate it likely? {A} I don't know.             looks familiar. {Q} Do you know who would have
126/        {Q} Did there come a time when the              prepared this? {A} No, I don't. {Q} When you go
administrator, during this time period that you were        back to follow up and go to your files and pull out the
executive assistant, became aware that Adams was            slides, how do you know who to call? {A} Pull out
threatening legal action or could be said to have           slides? {Q} Yes.
threatened legal action? MR. CAYRNES: Assumes               129/     You testified that when you followed up on
facts not in evidence; objection. {Q} (By Mr. Palmer)       something that was committed in a briefing, that you
You can answer. MR. CAYRNES: Go ahead and                   go back to your files, look at the slides, and then call.
answer it if you can. {A} Would you please repeat           How would you determine who to call? MR.
your question? MR. CAYRNES: There's a little bit of         CAYRNES: I don't know that that accurately
a why-don't-you-stop-beating-your-wife aspect in            characterizes her testimony. {A} I didn't call anyone.
that question. {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) In these articles        I maintained those files, I said, when I was working
that are Exhibits 14, 15, and 16 - {A} The three            for the administrator. {Q} Will you look at the
SPACE BUSINESS NEWS - well, two SPACE                       substance of what's contained in these slides? It looks
BUSINESS NEWS and one SPACE STATION                         as if it came from Procurement. Is this the type of
NEWS? {Q} Correct. {A} Uh-huh. {Q} There's an               presentation Procurement was making to the
indication that Adams may take legal action if it's         administrator at this point in time, and this point in
eliminated from the program.                                time being the '92-'93 - June 7 of '93? {A} A "yes" or
127/     To your knowledge, did that ever become a          "no" would be inaccurate. {Q} Okay. What is your
topic of conversation with the administrator? {A} I         sense of where these came from based on your
don't know. {Q} Did you ever raise it with him. {A}         business knowledge of GOHS at that time? {A} I
No. {Q} Did he ever raise it with you? {A} No, not          don't recall. {Q} Do you recall a meeting with the
to my recollection. (Trindle Exhibit No. 17 marked          contractors, Freedom contractors, concerning
for identification) {Q} I'll now show you a document        transition on July 20, 1993? {A} No, I don't recall a
that's been marked as Exhibit No. 17. It's Bates 172        meeting. {Q} Let me show you a document now
through 175. Have you ever seen this document               that's been marked as Exhibit 19.
before? {A} I don't recall seeing it. {Q} Who would         130/         (Trindle Exhibit No. 19 marked for
have arranged the meeting with the senior executives        identification) {Q} I'll ask you if you're familiar with
of the principal Space Station contractors for the          the presentation that these are from. {A} No, I'm not.
administrator? {A} I don't recall. {Q} Would that           {Q} Do you know if Mr. Swann would be familiar
have been your job? {A} I may have, his secretary           with that presentation? {A} I would not know. {Q} Is
may have, and others may have. I don't recall. {Q}          this the kind of thing that you would attend? {A}
Did you assist him in preparing for that meeting? {A}       Yes. {Q} Do you know if you attended this? {A} No,
No, I did not. {Q} Do you recall who did?                   I don't. {Q} This is two days before the CEO

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                                                              involved …
__131/ … a meeting dealing with something that Mr.
Swann would be interested in …                                __134/ … organization or individual … It … sources
                                                              …
__132/ … I did not attend meetings in Mr … stead
…                                                             __135/ …

__133/    … Ann Rice and Ed Grammercy were
                                                              No. 21 marked for identification) {Q} Do you recall
meeting. Does that help? {A} I don't recall. {Q} Did          seeing this document before? {A} I don't recall
you have any warrant - that's a wrong word - did you          seeing it. {Q} Do you recall discussing - anyone
have any task that you had been given to track for the        discussing with Mr. Swann the matters that are raised
administrator, the transition process? {A} No. {Q}            in it, such as a contractor concept and White House
You did? {A} No. {Q} You did not.                             direction, that sort of thing? {A} I don't recall
131/ Why would you have attended this meeting?                specifically. {Q} Who would have prepared this
{A} I'm not certain that I did attend it. {Q} You said        document? {A} I don't know. {Q} Given the White
it was the type of meeting you would attend. {A}              House interest, program interest, and the redesign,
Type. I did not say - {Q} So what made you say that?          where would that have fallen in your experience?
What's the type that makes you say that? {A}                  134/       MR. CAYRNES: Objection; you made a
Because it's a meeting dealing with something that            number of givens, and they're not in evidence. I think
Mr. Swann would be interested in. {Q} And would               you picked up - your reference to White House
you take notes of that meeting if you would be                interest maybe is picked up from a reference in the
interested in it? {A} Generally with briefing charts, I       White House on the second page of this document,
did not take notes. {Q} And you'd bring him back a            but it hasn't been established what this document is,
set of charts? {A} I would put a set of charts in the         who prepared it, where it's from, or anything. There's
file for meetings that I attended where he was                no foundation for it at all, so I don't think you ought
present. {Q} If he wasn't present, would you just get         to be assuming these givens in your question. {Q}
him a set of charts? {A} No. {Q} Would you give               (By Mr. Palmer) Given the substance of this and
him an oral presentation? {A} No. {Q} Well, I'm               based on your experience with GOHS at that time,
confused now. I want you to straighten me out. This           1992-1993, who would have prepared a document
is the type of meeting that he's interested in, so that       like this? What organization or individual? {A} It
would be why you attended. I assume he did not                could have been a variety of sources. MR.
attend it.                                                    CAYRNES: Is your question directed at the
132/ Did he attend it? {A} I said I don't know. {Q}           government - because I don't see anything that
Okay. If he didn't, would he send you in his stead?           establishes whether it's even a government document.
{A} No. {Q} He would not. He would have to be                 There's just no foundation about this document at all.
there to - {A} I said earlier I did not attend meetings       135/     I will not - I mean, the document indicates
in Mr. Swann's stead. {Q} Okay. I think that clears           from the stamp on it that this is a document that was
that up for me. Let's look at a document that has been        obtained in other litigation involving private parties
marked as Exhibit 20. (Trindle Exhibit No. 20                 and not litigation with the government. This could
marked for identification) {Q} Are you familiar with          have come from anywhere. This is not necessarily
this document? {A} I don't recall seeing this. {Q} Do         from the government. It could have been prepared by
you know if Mr. Swann saw it? {A} I don't recall              Chenedy. Who knows who could have prepared it. I
seeing it, and I do not have knowledge of Mr. Swann           think if you're going to go ask questions about the
seeing it. {Q} Is it possible he could have seen it           document, you either have to establish a better
without you seeing it? {A} Yes, of course. {Q} Do             foundation or ask a different witness. MR. PALMER:
you know who prepared this or would prepare this              You produced it. I think it's safe to say I didn't
sort of document?                                             produce it. MR. CAYRNES: Did you say we
133/ {A} No, I don't. {Q} You are familiar with the           produced it? MR. PALMER: Yes, you did. MR.
people who are working these issues at this time,             CAYRNES: It says "Lake LaBrea Seven Limited
correct? {A} Working - {Q} For the administrator.             Partnership VS. Adams Aerospace." It might have
{A} Fee discussion issues? {Q} For the CEO                    been produced by the government in another case. I
meeting on 22 July. {A} I don't recall who was in             don't know. MR. PALMER: It was by Mr. Marie in
discussions specifically with Mr. Swann on this               this case. It's part of our ongoing effort to try to
meeting. I said perhaps Ann Rice and Ed Grammercy             simplify matters with the government with this
were involved. {Q} Let's go to 21. (Trindle Exhibit           economy of scale.

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__136/ …                                                      __139/ … these were … prepared in late '97 …

__137/ …                                                      __140/ …

__138/ … these … Yes … these … Sometime this                  __141/ … About this program … None that meet
year … In '98 … This is the form that I was asked to
provide it in …                                               139/ MR. CAYRNES: Subject to the same excision
                                                              that's in the typed version that the Court has
                                                              reviewed, sure. MR. PALMER: Okay. {Q} (By Mr.
136/ Mr. Marie provided us the document that had              Palmer) All right. Are you familiar with what Mr.
been provided at the LaBrea litigation because that           Swann had in his hand when he went into this
pretty much overlapped without duplication. MR.               meeting? {A} No. {Q} Did you not prepare it? {A}
CAYRNES: So there was a copy of this document in              No. {Q} Who prepared it? {A} I don't know. {Q} Do
that litigation. Whether it was originally a                  you know what he had at all, what he had done to
government document or what it was, I don't know.             prepare for this? {A} No. I want to go back and
This was a document that was produced in that                 correct that these were probably prepared in late '97.
litigation. I don't know who produced it. (Trindle            {Q} Okay. MR. CAYRNES: That's referring to
Exhibit No. 22 marked for identification) {Q} (By             Exhibit 24. {Q} Okay. Let's take a short break, a
Mr. Palmer) Let's look at 22. MR. CAYRNES: I don't            five-minute break. (A recess was taken) {Q} (By Mr.
know who produced it - or I don't know who created            Palmer) We're still on Exhibit 24.
it. MR. PALMER: It's part of the discovery process.           140/ Although I can't complete this exhibit at this
{Q} (By Mr. Palmer) I'll show you a document now              time because of the existence of the handwritten
that's been marked as Exhibit 22, Bates 2079 through          notes from when it was prepared, which will be
2096. Are you familiar with this document? {A} No.            provided to us by Mr. Cayrnes, I have a couple of
{Q} Do you know if the administrator ever saw this            questions. One is - MR. CAYRNES: Excuse me. Just
document? {A} I would not know. I don't recall.               for the record, I assume - so we don't misunderstand -
137/ {Q} If he had seen it, would you know? {A}               I assume that what you're talking about is that after
Not necessarily. {Q} Take a look, please, at 2086,            you see the handwritten notes, if there are any
2085, and the following - do these slides help you            differences that might give rise to some questions
recall whether or not you saw it? {A} I don't recall          that you obviously can't ask now. MR. PALMER: If
seeing it, so I would not know if Mr. Swann saw it,           it raises questions in my mind, then I'll ask them at
either. {Q} Look at the content of the first two pages.       that time. Right now it's only idle speculation. I'm not
Can you tell from that for whom this would be a               going to speculate about it until I see the document.
talking paper? {A} No, I cannot. {Q} Let's look at            Now, if you want to get it faxed over here, fine, we'll
the next one, which is 23. (Trindle Exhibit No. 23            do that today; otherwise, I'm not going to guess. MR.
marked for identification) {Q} I'll show you a series         CAYRNES: This is your opportunity to ask any
of handwritten notes. Do you recognize them? {A}              questions about the content of those notes insofar as
No. {Q} Is that "no"? {A} I don't recognize these             they're set forth in the document you have before
notes. {Q} Let's put those to one side and go to this         you.
next one. (Trindle Exhibit No. 24 marked for                  141/      {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) Are there any other
identification) {Q} This would be Exhibit 24. Now             handwritten notes that you have in your files that
I'll show you a document that's been marked as                were not produced? {A} None that comply with your
Exhibit 24.                                                   request. {Q} About this program at all? {A} None
138/ Do you recognize these? {A} Yes. {Q} What                that meet this request to - {Q} The Attachment A to
are they? {A} They're my notes. {Q} You prepared              the notice? {A} - supply these documents. {Q} Okay.
them personally or - {A} Yes. {Q} When were they              Can you tell me why you typed these notes at this
prepared? {A} I take notes at the meeting, and then I         time, November '97? {A} Because James Marie
retype them. {Q} When did you retype these? {A}               called me up and he said, "Do you have any
Sometime this year. {Q} In '98? {A} Correct. {Q}              recollection of a meeting that happened with Mr.
From what? {A} From an old piece of paper. {Q}                Swann and the CEO's?" And I said, "Well, I don't
Well, do you still have that old piece of paper? {A}          know." And he told me the date of the meeting. And
Yes. {Q} Has that been provided to us? {A} This is            he said, "Could you fax me the notes?" And I said,
the form that I was asked to provide it in. MR.               "You might not be able to read them. They're in my
CAYRNES: No, I don't think we have. In fact, I                shorthand." And I said, "Let me type them, and I will
wasn't aware that that still existed. MR. PALMER:             send them to you." And I did. I believe that that
You'll provide it to us?                                      complied with the request. I later found out that they

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this request … The Attachment A to the notice … -            at this meeting … this meeting from these notes …
supply these documents … James Marie called me up
… he told me the date of the meeting … that                  __145/ … Not the Leonard Shorthand method … My
complied with the request. I later … they had been           form of shortening words and abbreviating items …
supplied to …                                                meetings that led up to this July 22nd CEO meeting
                                                             … There probably were … I had them in my desk
__142/ … The typed version … where it says
"together again," parentheses … as opposed to the            __146/ … At Bobson … they … in the trunk of my
president of a university …
                                                             attendance at this meeting. {Q} And you also
__143/ … that … a bracket or parenthesis … I added           observed other meetings that you've testified you
it in … send them out … He was changing his mind             didn't have any recollection of? That's also correct,
… It was … important meeting … there was …                   isn't it? {A} I don't have recollection of those notes
attention focused on this meeting … The people               nor of attending the meetings that I said I didn't
involved in the Redesign and Mr. Swann …                     recall. {Q} Okay. But you have a good recollection
                                                             of any notes - any meeting you took notes on? {A}
__144/ … I was an observer … I was in attendance             Repeat the question, please. {Q} Do you have a good
                                                             recollection of any meetings on which you took the
had been supplied to you already. {Q} The written or         notes? {A} I may not have a good recollection of the
the typed version?                                           meeting per se. I have a recollection of this meeting
142/     {A} This. {Q} Exhibit 24? {A} The typed.            from these notes. {Q} Were there any other meetings
{Q} The typed version? {A} Uh-huh. {Q} Now,                  involving the Redesign that you took notes on that
you're referring to Exhibit 24. Up under the header          you have copies of that haven't been provided to us?
there that we have centered, you say: "Items in              {A} No. {Q} Now, when you took these notes, they
brackets were not in notes but were added to clarify"?       weren't taken actually in shorthand themselves, were
{A} Correct. {Q} What was your basis for these               they?
clarifications? What did you use? {A} Let me find an         145/ {A} Not the Leonard Shorthand method. {Q}
example. On the last page where it says "together            That's what I mean, no. They were just taken in
again," parentheses, "contractor representatives are         clipped French perhaps, something like that? {A} My
called back into the meeting," that was not in my            form of shortening words and abbreviating items.
notes specifically. MR. CAYRNES: There's another             {Q} Now, were there any meetings that led up to this
one on Page 4. {A} "President Monroe" as opposed             July 22nd CEO meeting that you attended but didn't
to the president of a university. {Q} (By Mr. Palmer)        take notes of? {A} There probably were. {Q} Do you
And on down you've got: "Swann: We'll send letter            have notes of any of those meetings - {A} No. {Q} -
out today. No." You have in brackets "(won't send            in your files? {A} No. {Q} Did you review your files
out - cancel this idea.)" Do you see that?                   for such notes? {A} Yes, I did. {Q} The notes that
143/ {A} Yes. {Q} You added that? Where did that             you used to prepare Exhibit 24, did you maintain
come from? {A} Is that a bracket or parenthesis?             them in your office at Bobson? {A} Did I? {Q} Yes.
MR. CAYRNES: It looks like a bracket. I'm not sure.          {A} For a time, yes. {Q} And at the time you were
I don't know. {A} If it's a bracket, I added it in           requested to produce them, where were they? {A} I
because the "no" means no, we won't send them out            had them in my desk.
today. He was changing his mind. {Q} (By Mr.                 146/ {Q} At Bobson? {A} Yes. {Q} And where are
Palmer) You have a specific enough recollection four         they now? {A} I believe they're in the trunk of my
years after this meeting to be able to put that final        husband's car, but I can't attest to that. {Q} Can you
point on "no." What was so special about this                tell me why they'd be in the trunk of your husband's
meeting that you were able to have that kind of              car? {A} Because on the weekends we have a house
recall? {A} It was a very important meeting. {Q} For         out of town, and I'm in the habit of throwing things in
what reason? {A} I know that there was a lot of              the trunk of his car. {Q} But that's not a normal
attention focused on this meeting. {Q} By whom?              depository for business other than business you have
{A} The people involved in the Redesign and Mr.              ongoing? {A} Correct. I've been on travel two weeks
Swann. {Q} And you were privy to this attention in           in a row, and things have gotten skewed. {Q} So
your position? {A} I don't know that I was privy.            that's all for the moment on Exhibit 24. (Trindle
{Q} You were part of the process? MR. CAYRNES:               Exhibit No. 25 marked for identification) {Q} I want
That's vague.                                                to show you a document we've marked as Exhibit 25.
144/ {A} I was an observer. {Q} (By Mr. Palmer)              Okay. I'm showing you - you have this in front of you
You observed this meeting, correct? {A} I was in             there, a document that's been marked as Exhibit 25.

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… car … on the weekends we have a house out of                Bobson Space Center …
town … in the habit of throwing things in the trunk of
his car … not a normal depository for business other          __150/ …
than business … have … been on travel two weeks in
a row … things have … skewed … a document …                   __151/ … what the criteria would be … Yes … I
been marked as Exhibit 25 …
                                                              point. I notice that it's headed "Minutes from Meeting
__147/ … not … on the panel for the selection of the          with Administrator," and it has "Attendees," but the
single prime …                                                "Attendees" don't list the administrator. Was he
                                                              there? {A} I don't know. I don't recall the meeting.
__148/ They … look familiar … listed as an attendee           {Q} If it says "meeting with administrator," then is it
… Pam Vonnegut … she was working with the                     likely he would have been there, physically there?
Redesign team on the Procurement strategy … She               {A} I can't say because I don't recall. {Q} If you look
had a … broad role …                                          at the second bullet there, it talks about Mr. Swann's
                                                              thoughts and decisions. Would that be the kind of
__149/   … She left GOHS when she was at the                  thing that would be normally discussed in a meeting
                                                              if he's not there? {A} I don't recall. MR. CAYRNES:
{A} Uh-huh. {Q} I'll ask you if you recognize this            You've already subpoenaed Ms. Vonnegut for her
document.                                                     deposition, and she's the one who signed this. I don't
147/ {A} I don't recall it. {Q} Did you have any              know why you're belaboring this with a witness who
kind of input in the preparation of documents of this         claims she wasn't there. THE WITNESS: I don't
type? {A} No. {Q} I believe you testified earlier that        recall.
you were not in any way on the panel for the                  150/ MR. CAYRNES: Or she doesn't recall being
selection of the single prime. Is that correct? {A}           there. I mean, if she can't answer the question, there
Correct. {Q} Did you participate at all in any                are other people who can. What's the point in beating
meetings related to that panel? {A} No. {Q} Or in             a dead horse? MR. PALMER: The point is she has a
any meetings of the panel itself even as just an              very highly specific recollection, a recollection
observer? {A} No. I don't recall any. (Trindle Exhibit        sufficient to add inundations to notes about a meeting
No. 26 marked for identification) {Q} I'll show you a         that occurred 22 July 1993, and yet she doesn't even
document that's been marked as Exhibit 26. It's Bates         remember if Mr. Swann was at the 14 August
No., last three, 742 through 747. It's minutes of a           meeting. MR. CAYRNES: So? Is there supposed to
meeting, Saturday, 14 August 1993. Do you recall              be some significance to that? {Q} (By Mr. Palmer)
that meeting? {A} No, I don't. {Q} Did you take               So it's not as important as the 22 July meeting, this
these notes? {A} I don't recall that I did.                   meeting? {A} I can't say that it was as important or
148/ They don't look familiar to me, and it's not my          less important. {Q} "Host Center Selection" is not an
general way of formatting notes. {Q} Who among                important item? MR. CAYRNES: She didn't say that.
these attendees listed at the top would have taken            Come on, cut it out. She said she doesn't remember
these in your experience? {A} The last page indicates         the meeting. You can ask her a hundred times and get
that Pam Vonnegut has signed off on this. {Q} So              the same thing. She doesn't remember the meeting.
they would have been her notes? {A} I don't know.             You want to ask her what's important?
{Q} In the practice of GOHS at that time, that would          151/ She didn't say whether it was important. She
have been her notes probably? {A} I don't recall              said she doesn't remember the meeting. {Q} (By Mr.
specifically. {Q} You were at this meeting? {A} I             Palmer) Were you ever in a meeting at which there
don't recall being in the meeting. I don't recall the         was any discussion of the single prime, who would
meeting. {Q} But you're listed as an attendee? {A}            be selected single prime on the Redesigned Space
Correct. {Q} Now, you know Pam Vonnegut? {A}                  Station? {A} A discussion of who would be selected
Yes, I do. {Q} And what was her position at this              single prime? {Q} Or what the criteria would be?
point? {A} I believe she was working with the                 {A} Yes. {Q} When was that? {A} I don't recall.
Redesign team on the Procurement strategy. {Q} For            There were several meetings on that subject. {Q}
the single prime? {A} I can't say for the single prime.       That would be meetings with the administrator,
She had a very broad role. {Q} Do you know where              correct? {A} It may or may not have included the
she is now? {A} No, I don't. {Q} Is she still with            administrator. {Q} I thought you said you only went
GOHS, to your knowledge?                                      to meetings with him? {A} I went to some meetings
149/     {A} I don't believe she is. She left GOHS            with him and some without him. {Q} On the single
when she was at the Bobson Space Center, and I don't          prime? {A} On any variety of subjects. {Q} Let's
know where she's now. {Q} Now, this is a small                look at a document we'll have marked as Exhibit 27.

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went to some meetings with him and some without               we were reviewing the files to … that we had all the
him … On any … subjects …                                     pieces in the file …

__152/ …                                                      __155/ … we want to have a determination and
                                                              finding whenever … a sole source contract … I have
__153/ … the D and F was prepared … we                        a … limited recollection of what role I … played … I
frequently referred back to it … it was a part of the         only signed one document as a contracting officer …
contract file … The Space Station contract, the new
Space Station contract … The International Space              __156/ I only signed one document as a CO … in
Station …
                                                              authority to award the contract? {A} I don't know
__154/ … After the contract was in place … When               that. {Q} You worked on this program as a
                                                              contracting officer? {A} After the contract was in
152/          (Trindle Exhibit No. 27 marked for              place. {Q} And you were referred to the D and F?
identification) {Q} Ms. Trindle, do you recall a              {A} When we were reviewing the files to make sure
meeting where these matters were discussed that are           that we had all the pieces in the file. {Q} And what
reflected on the slides of this Exhibit 27? {A} I don't       was the purpose of this piece that you were told at
recall these specific charts at all. I don't recall a         that time?
specific meeting. I have a vague recollection that            155/ {A} Because we want to have a determination
there was a meeting where strengths and weaknesses            and finding whenever you issue a sole source
of the various contractors were discussed and a vague         contract. {Q} And that's the only time you were
recollection that their average award fee was noted.          referred back to it? {A} I don't recall other times or if
{Q} Do you recall who ran the meeting? {A} No, I              there were other times. {Q} Were you involved in
don't. {Q} Would that at the time be a function of the        closing Alexandria to any extent? {A} Closing the
SRT? {A} I don't recall. (Trindle Exhibit No. 28              facilities? {Q} Yes, the facilities at Level 2. MR.
marked for identification) {Q} I'll now show you a            CAYRNES: Isn't there some kind of foundation for
document that we've marked as Exhibit 28. The                 that? It's a little cryptic. Maybe the witness follows
document is comprised of Bates Nos. 31 through 36.            exactly what you're saying but … {A} Involved in
Do you recognize this document? {A} I don't recall            what sense? {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) As a contracting
this document.                                                officer, were you involved in transitioning from
153/ {Q} Take a moment and look at it, see if you             Alexandria to Bobson as a lead center? {A} I have a
can refresh your recollection. {A} I don't recall the         very limited recollection of what role I may or may
letter, the cover letter. I do remember that the D and        not have played during that period. I know that when
F was prepared because we frequently referred back            I was a contracting officer, I only signed one
to it. {Q} Do you recall who prepared the D and F?            document as a contracting officer, and I do not recall
{A} No, I don't. {Q} When you say you were                    what that specific document was. {Q} But you recall
referred back to the D and F, in what context would           signing one? {A} Only one.
you be referred back to the D and F? {A} I recall that        156/       I only signed one document as a CO. {Q}
it was a part of the contract file. {Q} For which             Who were the Public Affairs people at headquarters
contract? {A} The Space Station contract, the new             in '92 and 93? {A} Pardon? {Q} Who were the
Space Station contract. {Q} The International Space           Public Affairs people in '92 and '93 at headquarters?
Station? {A} Yes. {Q} And what was your                       {A} There were quite a number of them. {Q} Who
understanding of the purpose of the D and F? {A} I            was in charge? {A} There was a gentleman named
don't recall. {Q} It is to give authority to award a          Bill, and I don't recall his last name. He left when
single prime contract, wasn't it? MR. CAYRNES:                Monroe came in, I believe. We got a number of
Objection; calls for a legal conclusion. MR.                  Schedule C appointees in when Monroe became
PALMER: No. It calls for a business conclusion.               president. Timmy Simon - excuse me - Timmy
154/ She's a contracting officer with a warrant. {Q}          Vincent was the acting head of Public Affairs for a
(By Mr. Palmer) You can answer. MR. CAYRNES:                  while. Timmy Chadwick assisted the headquarters
It calls for a legal conclusion. She can give whatever        Public Affairs function for a while. There was a
answer she might give, but it does call for a legal           woman named Becky who worked in Public Affairs.
conclusion. MR. PALMER: The authority - MR.                   {Q} Was Public Affairs - let me try to simplify this a
CAYRNES: What authority was needed or whether                 little bit. In Public Affairs, did a particular person at
authority was needed is another issue. {Q} (By Mr.            that time work on a particular issue if it was a hot
Palmer) You can answer. {A} I believe I already               issue? {A} I - it would be unfair for me to be specific
answered the question. {Q} Was that document the              because I'm not certain how it was structured.

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charge … There was … Bill … He left when Monroe                made a … call to them … the … calls to the
came in … We got … Schedule C appointees in                    international partners from his office …
when Monroe became president. Timmy Simon … -
Timmy Vincent was the acting head of Public Affairs            __160/ … Did … prepare this correspondence …
… Timmy Chadwick assisted the headquarters Public
Affairs function … Becky … worked in Public                    __161/ … Mr. Swann returned … proposals …
Affairs …                                                      information of addressee …

__157/ … he was … there in '93. He came on board               __162/   … what the date is on this … if I was
as the … 3 person in the … office … the
administrator, the deputy … the third person, which            international partners? {A} Yes, I believe he did. {Q}
was Tom O'Neil's position …                                    Did you prepare that correspondence? {A} I don't
                                                               recall that it was correspondence. {Q} How was it
__158/ … He works for the Office of Science and                done? {A} I believe he made a phone call to them.
Technology Policy … In Washington, D.C. … part of              {Q} Was it scripted? {A} Did he have a prepared
the White House … Administration …                             text? I don't recall that he did. {Q} A phone call.
                                                               What about notification of the other contractors? {A}
__159/ … notified the … international partners … he            I don't recall how that happened. {Q} Was all this
                                                               done from his office or from somewhere else? {A} I
157/ {Q} To your knowledge, if Public Affairs was              recall the phone calls to the international partners
fielding press inquiries relative to a particular              from his office. {Q} And you have no recollection of
program, would there be one particular point person            those calls to the contractors?
in Public Affairs who would handle those inquiries             160/     {A} No, I don't. {Q} I'll now show you a
relative to that program? {A} I do not know. {Q}               document that's been marked as Exhibit 30. (Trindle
Now, were you involved at any time in developing               Exhibit No. 30 marked for identification) {Q} Do
questions for the administrator or for Public Affairs          you recall the proposal that was submitted? {A} No, I
concerning the transition - {A} No. {Q} - for the              don't. {Q} Did you prepare this correspondence? {A}
press? {A} No. {Q} Were you ever involved in the               No, I did not. {Q} Do you know who prepared the
preparation of a press release either editing or - {A}         correspondence? {A} No, I do not. {Q} Let me ask
Not that I recall. {Q} Tom O'Neil's position in 1992           you this: Do you know - to go back to Exhibit 30 for
and 1993 was what? {A} I don't remember when he                a moment that you had, the letter returning Rhender's
started work, so I can't even attest to the fact that he       proposal, do you know if there were any other
was there in '92, but he was certainly there in '93. He        proposals that were returned to other contractors?
came on board as the No. 3 person in the                       MR. CAYRNES: Objection; you're characterizing
administrator's office. There's the administrator, the         returning a proposal in the letter. It may have not
deputy, and the third person, which was Tom O'Neil's           returned the proposal. This document, Exhibit 30, is
position, and I don't remember the title.                      unsigned and undated. We don't know what it is.
158/          (Trindle Exhibit No. 29 marked for               161/     {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) Do you know if Mr.
identification) {Q} Look at the document that's been           Swann returned any proposals to any other contractor
marked as Exhibit 29. That's Bates, the last three,            than to Rhender? {A} Your question, I believe,
1648 through 58. Can you tell me who Skip Bobs is?             assumes that there might have been proposals. I'm not
{A} He works for the Office of Science and                     aware of any. {Q} I'm just wondering if you knew
Technology Policy. {Q} And where is that? {A} In               that any had been returned. That's what my question
Washington, D.C.. {Q} In GOHS? {A} No. {Q}                     is. {A} I'm not aware of any that were received. {Q}
Where? {A} They're part of the White House. {Q} In             At all? {A} I don't recall any. {Q} Then you don't
the White House? {A} Administration. {Q} Would                 recall a submission that Chenedy Adams made on
you have been involved in this document preparation            July 27th to GOHS? {A} No, I don't. {Q} Let's take
at all, talking points? {A} No. {Q} That was "no"?             five minutes here. (A recess was taken) (Trindle
{A} Correct. {Q} Would you look at the second page             Exhibit No. 31 marked for identification) {Q} I'll
to this document.                                              show you a document that's been marked as Exhibit
159/ It's 649, the Bates number, the last three. Do            31. Are you familiar with this exhibit? {A} I'm not
you see under Tuesday, August 17 at 11:00 a.m. there           familiar with it. {Q} I see your name at the top. It's
are two action items for the administrator? {A} Uh-            information of addressee? {A} Uh-huh.
huh. {Q} Do you know if those ended up on his                  162/ {Q} Why would it have been sent to you? {A}
calendar or not? {A} I don't recall. {Q} Do you recall         Probably because at that time - I can't tell what the
whether or not he ever notified the partners,                  date is on this, but if I was working in the Space

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working in the Space Station office at the Bobson             asked to go talk to Congress people … Some were …
Space Center … they sent it to me as … in that office         not sensitive subjects …
… involvement with this program … During
November of '93, I was … - down at the Bobson                 __165/ … Page 2230, Bates … 2230 … I … seen
Space Center and the Space Station Program office             this chart … there was calls made to the international
assisting with Procurement matters                            partners … the July 22 CEO meeting …

__163/ … Pam Vonnegut … With Pam Vonnegut …                   __166/ … Relative to the CEO meeting … earlier …
other than Legislative talk to the Congress or …              was … 2 … the deputy administrator …
Senate … Other than Mr. Swann … Other than
pursuant to a subpoena or a request from Congress             __167/    … been filled … vacant … He was an
addressing him … People in Legislative Affairs.
Following missions, we frequently send members of             Page 2230. {A} Uh-huh. MR. CAYRNES: Let me
the mission up on the Fort                                    note for the record this Exhibit 33 seems to be a
                                                              composite of several different documents. They
__164/ There were other times when people were                appear to be independent items, including starting
                                                              with Page 2231, an excerpt from a publication, and so
Station office at the Bobson Space Center, I would            on. Just for clarity, it doesn't look like one thing. It
assume that they sent it to me as one of the people in        looks like several different things. MR. PALMER:
that office. I don't recall it. {Q} Do you recall a           This is the way the document was produced to us by
meeting at GOHS headquarters on September 29,                 the government, so that's how we kept it.
1993, concerning - at which reduction of Adams was            165/      {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) Do you recall this
discussed? {A} I don't recall that meeting. {Q} You           organizational chart, 2230? MR. CAYRNES: Where
were not in attendance? {A} I don't recall the                do you see an organizational chart? MR. PALMER:
meeting. {Q} Do you recall a decision that the                Page 2230, Bates No. 2230. {A} I don't recall having
administrator made to reduce Adams's role by 93               seen this chart, and I'm not certain it's what I would
percent? {A} No, I don't recall that. {Q} If you refer        call an organizational chart. {Q} (By Mr. Palmer)
to Exhibit 31 - {A} The letter signed by Jamison              What would you call it? {A} I don't know that I
Minuet? {Q} Yes, correct. During this time frame -            would call it anything. I've never seen it before. {Q}
this is November of 1993 - what was your                      Go back to Exhibit 22. You recall the telephone calls
involvement with this program? {A} During                     to the international partners, you said? {A} I recall
November of '93, I was down in the - down at the              that there was calls made to the international partners.
Bobson Space Center and the Space Station Program             {Q} Do you recall the July 22 CEO meeting? {A}
office assisting with Procurement matters.                    Yes. {Q} Now, would you look at Page 2094, please,
163/ {Q} With Ann Rice? {A} No. She is - {Q}                  on Exhibit 22? Do you recall the contact that the
Oh, Pam Vonnegut? {A} Correct. {Q} With Pam                   administrator made with the CEO's? {A} I said I
Vonnegut? {A} Correct. (Trindle Exhibit No. 32                didn't. {Q} Prior to the meeting you did not. Will you
marked for identification) {Q} Let's look at 32, a            look at the talking points here on that page?
document marked as Exhibit 32. Can you tell me                166/ Had you seen these before? {A} Have I seen
what JQP is? {A} I don't recall. {Q} Would this be            this page before? {Q} The talking points or even the
someone in Legislative? {A} I don't recall. {Q}               substance of them? {A} I don't recall. {Q} If not
Would anyone other than Legislative talk to the               precisely in this form, any substantially similar? {A}
Congress or the Senate? {A} Yes. {Q} Other than               I do not recall. {Q} When - let's see. Let me look
Mr. Swann? {A} Yes. {Q} Other than pursuant to a              back here. Do you recall that calls were made to the
subpoena or a request from Congress addressing                CEO's? {A} I do not recall. {Q} Relative to the CEO
him? {A} Yes. {Q} Who? {A} People in Legislative              meeting I mean? {A} I stated earlier I do not recall
Affairs. Following missions, we frequently send               how the CEO's were notified of the meeting. {Q}
members of the mission up on the Fort.                        Okay. Well, if Tom O'Neil was the No. 3, who was
164/      There were other times when people were             the No. 2? Was that Ann Rice? {A} There wasn't a
asked to go talk to Congress people. {Q} About                No. 2. {Q} Okay. And to Mr. Swann No. 2 - {A}
sensitive subjects? {A} I don't - I don't know what           Correct. {Q} - was it a vacant job? {A} Correct. {Q}
they always talked about. Some were clearly not               How long had it been vacant in '92, '93? {A} I don't
sensitive subjects. {Q} I want to go to the next              know. I don't know. {Q} That's the deputy
exhibit which will be 33. (Trindle Exhibit No. 33             administrator? {A} Uh-huh.
marked for identification) {Q} It's 2222 through              167/ {Q} And when was it filled? Do you know?
2237. In particular, I'd like to call your attention to       {A} It hasn't been filled. {Q} It's still vacant? {A}

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advisor … Mr. Swann and other people in the …               member of the Space Council …
suite … The other people who were principals in that
office                                                      __170/ … one or both … He did not manage it …
                                                            Seline Greene … with it … Mandy Greene … Mandy
__168/ … Luke Tomison was there and Tom O'Neil              was Mr … secretary, not Mr … secretary … Mandy
was there - they counseled to each other and                was Mr … secretary and handled … tasks and duties
conferred with each other … Helene Anderson and             for Mr. Swann … a secretary …
for a time Henry Felson … Henry Felson … had been
detailed up to headquarters … he was not acting in          __171/   … he had a secretary … would … fly
the position of the center director … T.O. Whites was
the acting center director … I was in Washington,           quick break? MR. PALMER: Sure. (A recess was
D.C., on detail from the end of May, beginning of           taken) {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) Do you recall Mr.
June of '92 until the September-October time frame          Abbey ever working at the Office of Science and
of '93 … Mr. Abbey … he worked for the                      Technology Policy in the White House? {A} I
administrator in Washington at the time of the              understand that he was a member of the Space
Redesign                                                    Council. I don't know what his job was, and I'm not
                                                            sure that he, quote, worked there or was employed
__169/ … He worked at headquarters … he was a               there. {Q} That was as a GOHS employee he would
                                                            have been - {A} I don't know. {Q} Would he have, in
Correct. {Q} During this time frame, do you know            his capacity as an assistant to Mr. Swann or in the
what Mr. Abbey's job was? {A} I don't remember.             executive office of the administrator, performed
MR. CAYRNES: Specify a time frame, in the                   duties relative to the Space Station Program? {A}
beginning of '92, '93? MR. PALMER: The time                 The Space Station Freedom Program or the
frame she was executive assistant. {A} I don't              Redesign?
remember his title. {Q} (By Mr. Palmer) Do you              170/      {Q} Either one or both. {A} He did not
remember what he did? {A} Not specifically. He was          manage it, and when he worked for Mr. Swann - {Q}
an advisor. {Q} To whom? {A} Mr. Swann and other            But would he have performed any duties relative to
people in the administrator's suite. {Q} Who else was       it? {A} I'm not sure. How do you define "duties"?
in the suite other than Mr. Swann? {A} The other            {Q} Would the administrator have asked him to do
people who were principals in that office.                  things relative to it? {A} I don't know. {Q} Who kept
168/ Like Luke Tomison was there and Tom O'Neil             Mr. Abbey's schedule? {A} I don't know. {Q} Did
was there - they counseled to each other and                Seline Greene have anything to do with it? {A}
conferred with each other - and Helene Anderson and         Mandy Greene. {Q} Mandy. {A} Mandy was Mr.
for a time Henry Felson. {Q} Henry Felson was the           Swann's secretary, not Mr. Abbey's secretary. {Q}
center director for Bobson, correct? {A} He had been        That was the secretary's specific duty, was the
detailed up to headquarters, so he was not acting in        calendar in the executive office of the administrator?
the position of the center director at that time. {Q}       {A} Mandy was Mr. Swann's secretary and handled a
What position had he been detailed to? {A} I don't          variety of tasks and duties for Mr. Swann. {Q} Who
recall the exact title. {Q} And was Dr. Simmons at          was Mr. Abbey's secretary? {A} I don't recall. {Q}
this point the - {A} No. {Q} Who was center director        Would she - {A} There was a secretary who was Mr.
at this point? {A} T.O. Whites was the acting center        Abbey's, and I don't recall who that was.
director. {Q} We're talking about Bobson? {A} At            171/ {Q} But he had a secretary? {A} I believe he
that time Bobson Space Center. {Q} And you were in          did. {Q} Whenever you would travel with the
Washington as well? {A} I was in Washington, D.C.,          administrator - {A} Uh-huh. {Q} - if you flew, would
on detail from the end of May, beginning of June of         you fly commercial, military, or GOHS aircraft? {A}
'92 until the September-October time frame of '93.          I don't recall ever flying military. I know we've
{Q} To your knowledge, was Mr. Felson and Mr.               mostly flew on the GOHS plane, but I can recall at
Abbey involved in the station redesign? {A} I don't         least one time when we flew commercial. {Q} Where
recall that Mr. Felson was involved. I simply don't         was the GOHS plane maintained? {A} The
recall. {Q} What about Mr. Abbey? {A} He was                administrator's plane, I'm not sure where it was
involved in the sense that he worked for the                maintained. We took it out of - for the most part, out
administrator in Washington at the time of the              of National Airport. {Q} That's where it was
Redesign.                                                   maintained? {A} I don't know that. There were times
169/ {Q} Do you know where he worked before he              when we took it from one of the Air Force bases
worked for the administrator? {A} He worked at              there, too. {Q} Do you know about Mr. Abbey? If he
headquarters. THE REPORTER: Could we take a                 flew, would he fly the GOHS plane as well? {A} If it

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commercial, military, or GOHS aircraft … mostly …
on the GOHS plane … when we flew commercial …                   __175/ …
the … plane … We took it out of … National Airport
… There were times when we took it from … Air                   __176/ …
Force … there … would … fly the GOHS plane … If
it was available …                                              Okay. And we'll just keep it open until after you fax
                                                                it to us. MR. CAYRNES: Well, I agree to that only in
__172/ …                                                        a very limited sense. My position is if you have no
                                                                other questions, the deposition is concluded subject
__173/ …                                                        to the possibility that you may have questions after
                                                                seeing the handwritten version of the document that
__174/ …                                                        could not have been asked now. If that comes up,
                                                                then, yeah … MR. PALMER: I don't have to agree
was available. {Q} Who was in charge of                         with that, and I won't agree to that. I'll agree only
determining the availability of GOHS aircraft?                  when I see - I won't even speculate about what's in it.
172/ MR. CAYRNES: Does this conceivably have                    This is all angels dancing on pinheads at this point.
any relevance? MR. PALMER: Yes. {Q} (By Mr.                     All I'm concerned about is getting the document
Palmer) Who was in charge of that? {A} I don't                  which you're obligated to give me for over a year
know. MR. PALMER: Okay. I guess we can go off                   now, which I just now found out about today in this
the record for a moment. I think that if you can fax us         deposition. MR. CAYRNES: Well, actually, I'm not
those handwritten notes tonight, we can wrap this up            sure we're obligated at all. It's in the government
tomorrow. Otherwise, we'll have to append it until              documents.
after we get the - MR. CAYRNES: I say we do this:               175/ MR. PALMER: As I recall, the complaints I
We'll fax it to you. MR. PALMER: Tonight? MR.                   got on burden and so forth about the breadth, height,
CAYRNES: Wait. I don't know if it will be faxed                 and width of the discovery requests certainly includes
tonight because it's not in the office. As far as I know,       that. So when I see it, then I'll know what I have.
it's in the trunk of the car or something. I don't know         Until then, I'm not going to speculate. I'm not going
if it can be faxed tonight. However, it seems to me             to limit myself in any way. MR. CAYRNES: I'm not
extremely unlikely that there's any questions that you          asking you to limit yourself. I'm telling you that -
can't ask now that you can only ask after seeing that           MR. PALMER: And you're not going to impose a
document. If that happens, you know, you're entitled            limit on me, either. MR. CAYRNES: We can
to do that.                                                     disagree. But as far as I'm concerned, any questions
173/ But I don't see why we should stay over until              that you can ask now that you don't ask now, you
tomorrow just on the off chance that you're going to            know - MR. PALMER: You can make that argument
have some questions based on the shorthand version              when you want to. Meanwhile, let's get the document.
of the document that you have. You have the typed               MR. CAYRNES: All right. I'm not agreeing that we
version. The handwritten version you probably can't             can - MR. PALMER: I don't think it requires your
read; but if you can, so be it. I expect that it's the          agreement at all.
same thing as the typed version. And I don't see any            176/      MR. CHEN: We're willing to accommodate
reason why we should push this thing on. I'd like to            Ms. Trindle in any way we can, but we've been
catch a plane and go home tonight. I have a lot of              waiting for a year, and I know there's been plenty of
other work to do, so do we all. MR. PALMER: Find                correspondence going back and forth on these very
out if you can fax it to us, and we'll put a wrap on it,        issues. If you'd like to, I'd like you to - why do you
if you can; if you can't, then we'll go with that when          think this is not a government-produced document?
we get to that point. MR. CAYRNES: Well, we'll -                The typewritten is; why is the handwritten not? MR.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. We will           CAYRNES: The typewritten document was produced
arrange to fax it. I don't know that we can even find           because, I mean, I was - based on what I know now,
out now as we sit when it can be faxed to you,                  the typewritten version is actually attorney work
because, for example, it might have to be faxed from            product. I was always under the impression that this
Ms. Trindle's office tomorrow morning. I don't know             was the government record. It wasn't until last night -
if there would be any point in that if we were going            or yesterday afternoon that I found out that that was a
to come back tomorrow morning. But, no, it's not                relatively recent transcription, in other words, '97, of
here and it's not in her office. It's in the trunk of the       handwritten notes that were still in existence. The
car.                                                            handwritten notes, as it turns out, were not a
174/       So I don't know. I'm sure it can be faxed            government record. They happened to be - Ms.
sometime within the next day or two. MR. PALMER:                Trindle happened to have still had them in her

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__177/ …                                                        __181/ …

__178/ …                                                        __182/ …

__179/ …                                                        State of Wyoming, hereby certify that this deposition
                                                                transcript is a true record of the testimony given by
__180/ …                                                        the witness named herein, after said witness was duly
                                                                sworn or affirmed by me. I further certify that I am
possession. I don't think they were government                  neither attorney nor counsel for, related to, nor
records at all.                                                 employed by any of the parties to the action in which
177/ It doesn't really matter because, I mean, you              this testimony was taken. Further, I am not a relative
have the content of it; and so I'm not going the                or employee of any attorney of record in this cause,
quibble about it at this point and say it's, you know,          nor do I have a financial interest in the action. Further
not subject to discovery. But it wasn't, again as I said,       certification requirements, if any, pursuant to the
until yesterday - it wasn't until then that I was aware         Rules will be certified to in the Supplemental
that those handwritten notes were still in existence.           Certificate after they have occurred. Subscribed and
As far as I'm concerned, they are the same thing as             sworn to on this, the _ day of May, 1998.
the typed version. I'll produce them. MR. PALMER:
Sure. MR. CAYRNES: But they - you know, unless                  181/ _ Nina S. Tyler, CSR, RPR, RMR Certificate
there's something there that isn't in the typed version,        No. 5326 Expires December 31, 1998 IN THE
it's much ado about nothing. MR. CHEN: Well, I                  UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT OF
think we could have solved this whole problem, Mr.              FEDERAL         CLAIMS        CHENEDY          ADAMS
Cayrnes. If you knew about it yesterday, why didn't             CORPORATION, Plaintiff, VS. No. 07-845C (Judge
you tell us about it yesterday? It could have been              Hamilton) THE UNITED STATES, Defendant.
solved. Now we're in this predicament. MR.                      REPORTER'S SUPPLEMENTAL CERTIFICATE
CAYRNES: I couldn't tell you about it yesterday                 TO DEPOSITION OF JENNIFER CLEVELAND
because it was about five minutes before leaving to             TRINDLE, CPA VOLUME I TAKEN ON MAY 12,
the airport. You were probably not even in the office           1998 I, Nina S. Tyler, Certified Shorthand Reporter,
anymore. What can I do? I don't have it. MR. CHEN:              hereby certify pursuant to the Rules and/or agreement
We can go off the record.                                       of the parties present to the following: That $_ is the
178/ MR. PALMER: I just want to know if there                   charge for the preparation of the completed
are any such notes, documents that you're aware of              deposition transcript and any copies of exhibits,
now that you haven't told us about but won't tell us            charged to _, State Bar No. That the deposition
unless we ask and we haven't asked. MR.                         transcript: _ was submitted to the witness on _, for
CAYRNES: No. But there's probably a lot of things               the witness to examine, sign and return to
that I wouldn't even think to tell you unless you asked         CONTINENTAL COURT REPORTERS, INC., by _
because I just don't empty out my brain for you and             was not submitted to the witness for examination and
tell you everything I know. MR. PALMER: Off the                 signature, same having been waived by the witness
record. (Deposition ended 3:45 p.m., to be                      and all parties present. That the deposition transcript:
reconvened) -                                                   _ was returned, properly executed by the witness, to
179/ THE STATE OF WYOMING: I, JENNIFER                          the deposition officer.
CLEVELAND TRINDLE, CPA, hereby certify that I
have read the foregoing transcript of my testimony              182/ _ was returned unsigned because of _ illness _
given in the foregoing numbered and styled case and             refusal to sign _ absence of witness _ failure to
that same is true and correct. I further certify that any       accept delivery _ no reason given_ was not returned_
and all corrections have been made on a separate                was retained by _ by agreement of all parties present_
page and initialed by me. This the _ day of _, 1998_            does not apply as signature was waived_ That the
JENNIFER        CLEVELAND           TRINDLE,        CPA         attached Change/Correction Sheet contains the
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO BEFORE ME,                              changes/corrections and the reasons therefor_ That
this the _ day of _, 1998_ Notary Public in and for             there were no changes/corrections made_ Does not
the State of _ My Commission Expires _ Job No. 1-               apply as signature was waived. That the original or a
29409                                                           certified copy of the deposition transcript, together
                                                                with copies of all tendered exhibits, was_ was not_
180/    THE STATE OF WYOMING: I, Nina S.                        delivered to _, on _, 1998. That a copy of this
Tyler, Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the              certificate was served on all parties, pursuant to

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information made a part of the record at the time said
testimony was taken. Subscribed and sworn to on
this, the _ day of _, 1998_ Nina S. Tyler, CSR, RPR,
RMR Certificate No. 5326 Expires December 31,
1998 CONTINENTAL COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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