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Robert Kerrigan Deposition

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Robert Kerrigan Deposition Powered By Docstoc
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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA CIVIL ACTION NO. 00-CV-3696 PAUL CAMIOLO, Individually ) DEPOSITION UPON and as Administrator of the ) Estate of Edward P. Camiolo,) ORAL EXAMINATION deceased and PAUL CAMIOLO, ) Individually and as Executor) OF of the Estate of Rosalie ) Camiolo, deceased, ) ROBERT P. KERRIGAN ) Plaintiff, ) VOLUME I ) - vs ) ) STATE FARM FIRE AND ) CASUALTY CO., et al., ) ) Defendants. ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - TRANSCRIPT OF DEPOSITION, taken by and before Deborah L. Odell, Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public, at the Law Offices of MARSHALL, DENNEHEY, WARNER, COLEMAN & GOGGIN, One Montgomery Plaza, Suite 1002, Norristown, Pennsylvania, on Thursday, November 29, 2001, commencing at 10:17 a.m. - - REPORTING SERVICE ASSOCIATES (RSA) A Veritext Company 1845 Walnut Street, 15th Floor Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 (215) 241-1000 ROBERT P. KERRIGAN 2

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A P P E A R A N C E S:

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CREEDON & FELICIANI, P.C. BY: MICHAEL P. CREEDON, ESQUIRE 29 East Marshall Street Norristown, Pennsylvania 19401 Attorney for the Plaintiff, Paul Camiolo

DEASEY, MAHONEY & BENDER, LTD. BY: JOHN P. KAMSTRA, ESQUIRE 1800 John F. Kennedy Boulevard Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103-2978 Attorney for the Defendants, Trooper Investigative Services, George L. Wert, Peter C. Minzola and Michael Mateleska

MARSHALL, DENNEHEY, WARNER, COLEMAN & GOGGIN BY: JOSEPH J. SANTARONE, JR., ESQUIRE BY: JAMES M. CAPONI, ESQUIRE One Montgomery Plaza, Suite 1002 Norristown, Pennsylvania 19401-4814 Attorney for the Defendants, Thomas M. Sullivan, Robert P. Kerrigan, Rick W. Tidwell and Edward Stauch

P R E S E N T: Rick W. Tidwell

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1 2 3 WITNESS

I N D E X

PAGE

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4 ROBERT P. KERRIGAN 5 By: 6 7 8 9 E X H I B I T S 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 * Exhibit retained by Counsel. NUMBER 1 2 3 DESCRIPTION Report Evidence Log Diagram PAGE MARKED 17 68 79 PAGE ATTACHED * * * Mr. Creedon 4

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(By agreement of counsel, the signing, sealing, filing, and certification are waived; and all objections, except as to the form of the question, are reserved until the

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time of trial.)

EXAMINATION BY MR. CREEDON: Q A Q Good morning, Officer Kerrigan. Good morning. My name is Michael Creedon. I

represent Paul Camiolo both individually and as the personal representative of his parents' estate in a lawsuit that has been brought. morning, I'm going to ask you some questions about that lawsuit. If at any time you don't hear my question, please tell me, I will be glad to raise my voice so that you can hear me. If at any time you don't understand my question, then my job becomes harder. But tell This

me that you haven't understood my question and I will try to make myself understood for you. If you respond to a question, then I

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will assume you both heard and understood the question that I asked you. A Q I understand. Okay. Now, as you can see, the court And

reporter is taking down my instructions.

when we get to the question-and-answer portion,

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she will take down my questions and your answers. So it is important that each one of us

give the other person time to finish what they are doing before we start because she can't take both of us down at the same time. I haven't

seen one yet, but I'm waiting for that. If you do answer a question, please answer verbally. Nods of the head, shrugs of

the shoulder could be misinterpreted because it is going to come out in book form. So if you

mean yes, no, or something else, please say what you mean. A Q Okay? I understand. Is there any reason this morning,

medication-wise, physically, or any other reason that you wouldn't be able to hear the questions that I pose to you and formulate an answer and respond to them?

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A Q

No. Okay. Would you state your full name

and home and business address. MR. SANTARONE: the record for a minute. (At this time, a discussion was held off the record.) BY MR. CREEDON: Let's go off

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Q

Would you please state your name and

business address for the record, please. A My name is Robert P. Kerrigan, My business address is 117

K-E-R-R-I-G-A-N.

Park Avenue, Willow Grove, Pennsylvania 19090. Q A And by whom are you employed? The Upper Moreland Township Police

Department. Q A Q A Q A Q And in what capacity? I'm currently a detective. Are you married? I'm married. Do you have any children? Yes. Okay. I have two children. Now, let's go back, and briefly

give me your educational background through the

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highest level you attained in education.

And if

it is only partial courses or something at some point, let me know that, please. A I'm a high school graduate. I

attended Penn State University where I graduated with a bachelor of science degree. My education also in my police field includes graduated from the Pennsylvania State Police Academy, the Southeast Training Center in

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1984.

And I have various continuing education

courses and seminars and whatnot in the field of police work. Q school? A Q A Q 1979. And from Penn State? 1983. The course at the police academy, how When did you graduate from high

long did that last, approximately? A Back then, it was, I believe, a Roughly 12 to 14 weeks.

three-month course. Q

And do you remember the types of

subjects that were covered at the police academy course?

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A Q A fitness.

Yes. And what were they? There was criminal law, physical There was vehicle code law, rules of

criminal procedure, self-defense, and police procedures that I can name off the top of my head. Q And included within police procedures,

would that be the investigation of crime scenes and things like that? A Yes. Not in-depth, but from basically

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a patrol standpoint, yes. Q Okay. And after your graduation from

the Pennsylvania State Police Academy, did you begin your working career at that point? A Q 1984? A Q Upper Moreland Township Police. So you have always been with Upper Yes. And who were you employed by back in

Moreland Township Police Department? A Q Yes. In the Upper Moreland Township Police

Department, why don't you give me your job

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titles and how long you held each title up to the present time? A From 1984 until July 1994, I was in From July 1994 to the

the patrol division.

present, I am in the detective division with the title of detective. Q When you were in the patrol division,

were you always just a patrolman or did you have various ranks within the patrol division? A We don't have any ranks, per se. For

my last three years in patrol, I was an officer in charge, or an OIC. When the shift supervisor

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is not there, the administration has designated people that would be in charge. And I was for

the last three years of my patrol career an officer in charge. Q And when you began your career in

Upper Moreland, were you assigned to another officer initially, at least for some brief period of time, for some additional training with regard specifically to Upper Moreland? A Q officer? Yes. And how long were you assigned to that

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A

I was assigned to that officer for

approximately four to six weeks. Q A And do you recall who that was? Yes. That was Officer Norman Weaver,

W-E-A-V-E-R. Q And was there any specific training

that Officer Weaver gave to you beyond the type of training you got at the police academy or was this all on the job, here is how it is done out in the field type training? A It was more or less this is the way --

this is the way Upper Moreland police function, this is the things that we do every day, paperwork, how the flow of paperwork works, you

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know, what you do with your reports when you're writing, things like that. And yes, there were some actual -- the field training officer if he saw me doing something wrong, he would correct me. Q Were you given any type of policy and

procedure manual to study when you became a police officer at Upper Moreland Township? A We were given the general orders. I

believe at the time the general order was the

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manual that we were given to read and become familiar with. Q A And was that manual updated annually? Yes, it is. New general orders are Has it been revised in a

added all the time. while? Q

I don't think so. I know there are some manuals that are

put out and they are like in a loose-leaf binder that you could just open it up and either replace the prior order or add new orders. Is that somewhat like what was done at Upper Moreland Township? A Q That is exactly the way it was. Okay. When you went into the

detective division, was there any type of

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different manual given to you other than the manual you received when you went into the patrol division? A Q No. So since you have been with the patrol

division, it has been the same manual with whatever supplements whenever they come out? A Q That's correct. In any of your training up through

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1996, were you ever trained specifically with respect to fire investigations? A Q No. Even though you didn't have any formal

training in fire investigations, had you investigated fires as a police officer from 1984 through 1996? A Q Yes. And can you give me an idea of how

many fires you have investigated? A Q A Q Probably, that would be a -If you can estimate. I'm trying to think. A dozen.

Now, would that be a dozen per year or

a dozen total? A Q Total. Okay. And I have said fire and I left

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it kind of broad.

The fires that you recall

investigating, were they house fires, business fires, car fires, forest fires? Is there some

category that you can put the type of investigation, you know, type of object that was on fire that you investigated? A They would have been all those things

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you just mentioned. Q Do you know how many were house fires

as opposed to any of the other categories? A I can't tell you how many, but I would

say remembering house fires would have been in the minority. More car fires, field fires.

Certain appliances in houses would be on fire. Is that what you mean by house fire? Q Well, yes. I didn't want to limit

house fire to the whole house being -- any part of the house. So if the chimney caught fire or

a heater caught fire, something like that, that would constitute a house fire? A Q Correct. Between 1984 and 1996, was there ever

any cross training with the police and the fire department with represent to fires even if it was just on an informal basis?

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A Q A

Yes, I would say there was. And would you describe that to me? It would usually be -- we would have

some in-service training perhaps at the firehouse to go over a new piece of equipment that they had that we might see. Usually, on an

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informal basis. Q Would you go over investigative

techniques as opposed to equipment on an informal basis with the fire personnel? A Q No. So it was basically learning what type

of equipment they had? A Q Yes. As you know, this case involves a fire I believe

that occurred on September 30, 1996. it occurred around 4:00 a.m.

When did you first learn of the fire? A I was called at home by the police

dispatcher at approximately 4:45 a.m. Q And at the time that you were called

by the police dispatcher, you were already in the detective division, correct? A Q Yes. Okay. And were you partnered up with

another detective at that time or did you go on

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your own when you were called, you know, to go out to like a fire like this? A a partner. At that specific time, I did not have My partner had been Detective

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Tidwell.

Detective Tidwell was now the acting But Detective Tidwell eventually

supervisor.

came to the scene of the fire. Q Right. So even though you weren't

formally partners anymore, you both ended up on the scene together? A Q That's correct. What time did you arrive on the scene

of the fire, approximately? A I believe that I arrived at the fire

somewhere between 5:15 a.m. and 5:30 a.m. on the 30th. Q When you got to the scene of the fire,

was the fire under control at that point or was there still fire present in the structure? A Q It was extinguished. And I take it there was still fire

personnel present at the scene? A Q Yes. Okay. Quite a few. Other than the fire personnel

for right now, who else was present at the scene

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when you arrived? A The Upper Moreland Township fire

marshal was there, the deputy fire marshal was

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there. Q A Who was that? Mr. Momorella. Upper Moreland Police

Officer Richard Shanahan was there, Upper Moreland Police Officer William Hoffman was there. He was the officer in charge, the OIC.

Upper Moreland Police Lieutenant Carl Robinson was there. Q A Was Officer Rosenberger there? Officer Rosenberger was not there at

that time when I arrived. Q present? A there. There is one more officer that was I don't have my report in front of me, Anyone else that you recall being

but there was -- I believe there was another patrolman there. Q Okay. Would your report help to

refresh your memory? A Q Yes, it would. Now, I'm going to show you what is

marked as Detective Kerrigan's report in a folder that was provided to us by Thomas Cometa,

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who was Paul Camiolo's attorney in the criminal

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matter.

It does not differentiate -- I mean,

there may be dates on the paper, but there aren't any sub date folders in here. So I want to show you these documents and just ask you if there is more than one report or is the entire document that I am handing to you the report you referred to? And

if there is only a portion that is the report that you just referred to, please tell me what portion of this is that. A Mr. Creedon, the report I am referring

to is the 20-some page report that you gave me, not the faxes. Q Not the faxes. Okay.

And obviously, the faxes would have been generated after your report because these are faxing copies of that report to various people, correct? A That's correct. MR. CREEDON: All right.

Can we have the 20-some page report marked as Kerrigan 1, please. (At this time, Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.)

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BY MR. CREEDON: Q And just before I go back into that

questioning, I just have a couple questions. Prior to today's deposition, had you reviewed that report in preparation for the deposition? A Q Yes. And did you review any other documents

other than your report? A Q A file. Yes. And what were they? I reviewed essentially my entire case It would have encompassed reports by

police officers, firemen, fire marshals, interviews of people involved in the case, and various notes that I made during the investigation. Q Now, these notes that you made, are

they typed notes or are these handwritten notes you're talking about? A Q These are handwritten notes. Do you have notes that are either

dictated onto tapes -- like sometimes, you know, if I'm reporting to somebody, I dictate the

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report onto a tape.

Do you have anything like

that that is existent that pertains to your notes? A Q No, I don't. How about computer-generated notes, do

you keep any notes in the computer that are not within the case file, per se, but would be in what would be your full file if you are looking at your computer log as well? A Q No, I don't. How many pages of notes, handwritten

notes, do you have approximately regarding this case? A pages. Q And would most of those notes have Probably around approximately 15

been transcribed onto the report that is sitting in front of you? A Q Yes. Is there anything else that those

notes might have been used to generate, letters, memos, anything like that, that may not be contained within the report? A No, nothing written. No written forms

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of things came out of those notes except for the report. Q All right. And one thing I didn't ask

you when I was asking about your background is do you have a curriculum vitae or a resume that you keep on yourself? know if you do or not. A Q Yes, I do. Can you make a copy of that available Some people do. I don't

for us, please, through your attorney? A It is my accident resume. I'm an

accident investigator -- or had been an accident investigator. Q Okay. But that would also go through

your background in terms of education, et cetera, as well? A Q Yes. So I would like to obtain a copy of

that, if possible. All right. Now, you indicated to me

that there may have been at least one other officer present at the scene when you arrived and that you may be able to find out who that was if you looked at your report.

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Have you been able to find out who that officer was? A Now that I have looked at my report

and refreshed my memory, I was correct initially when I said Hoffman, Robinson and Shanahan. There was no other third officer there when I got there. Q Would you have been thinking then

maybe of Officer Rosenberger who may have been at the scene previously and had left? A What I am probably thinking of is -It is the

no, to answer your question.

lieutenant that throws the monkey wrench in there. There were three people total. I

probably am not thinking of the lieutenant as an officer, which he is. Q Okay. And when you arrived at the

scene, what, if anything, did you do at that point? A I found and spoke to Officer Shanahan,

Lieutenant Robinson and Officer Hoffman, who briefed me on the circumstances of why I was there. Q And what was your understanding after

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being briefed by the officers as to why you were there?

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A

That there was a house fire at 4130

Hoffman Road, in that house fire a man had died, and two other people who lived in the house were injured and taken to the hospital. And Officer

Rosenberger was injured and taken to the hospital. Q And what were the injuries that

Officer Rosenberger sustained? A Q I believe she had smoke inhalation. When you arrived at the scene, were And

any of the injured parties still present?

I'm excluding the deceased for the purpose of this question. A Q No, they were not present. Was the deceased still at the scene

when you arrived? A Q No, he wasn't. Okay. Were any EMT personnel still at

the scene when you arrived? A There could have been, but I did not

take notice of them. Q And with regard to the fire personnel,

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approximately how many of those were at the scene when you arrived? A There had to be at least a dozen,

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maybe even two dozen firemen still there. Q And were these all from one fire

department or were there several different fire departments who had responded there? A Q respond? A Upper Moreland Township, Hatboro, There were several. Do you recall which townships did

Warminster, Bryn Athyn, Horsham EMS, and the second alarmers, EMS. EMS was there also. that. Q And all those departments are And I believe Bryn Athyn I'm not entirely sure of

essentially volunteer departments at the time? A Q Yes. Was the reason that you were called

because there were injuries to people in the fire? A That would have been one of the

reasons, yes. Q Okay. Other than injury, what might

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have been other reasons for you to have been called to the scene of that particular fire? A come. Q Okay. So under either circumstance, That the fire marshal had asked us to

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if the fire marshal asked you to come, you go out whether there is injuries or not. And if

there is injuries, you definitely go out; is that correct? A Usually, the other request would be

from -- one of the police supervisors would ask us to come. statement. Q And after learning about the injuries But yeah, I think that is a fair

and the death, and now you knew why you were out there, what did you do at that point? A I sought out and found Fire Marshal

Tom Sullivan. Q And did you get a briefing from him as

well at that point? A Q Yes, I did. And what do you recall learning from

the briefing with Fire Marshal Sullivan? A He basically told me that there had

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been a fire in the rear of the house towards the rec room. He repeated that there was a fatality

in the fire, that other people were injured. At that time, I think he indicated to me that although it was early in the investigation he thought it was perhaps smoking

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that caused the fire. Q Had he indicated to you that he had

been inside the premises to view the scene where the fire had started at the time he was briefing you? A I don't recall if he specifically told

me he had been inside, but I assumed that he had. He had his fire gear on, he looked like he

had been inside. Q point? A I asked Tom Sullivan how I could And I believe we agreed that I And what else did you do at that

assist him.

would begin videotaping the scene, the exterior of the scene. Q A Q And did you, in fact, do that? Yes, I did. And where are those videotapes today,

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if you know? A The videotape would be in Upper

Moreland Police Department's evidence room. Q Okay. What was the purpose of

videotaping the scene? A Q To document the scene. Okay. So besides your own personal

observation of the scene, you would have

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something to memorialize what you were able to observe? A Q That's correct. Now, as part of the videotape, was

this videotape strictly on the outside of the home or did you physically go inside the home to take some of the videotape? A I eventually went into the home with As I

Tom Sullivan and Detective Tidwell.

recall, the lighting was not sufficient inside to videotape. I might have tried, but my

recollection is that the lighting inside was not sufficient. Q So the videotape that is preserved

that you can see when it is played is of the exterior of the home?

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A Q premises? A Q

I believe so. Okay. Did you walk around the entire

Yes, I did. Was there anything particular that you

recall videotaping? A house. I videotaped all four sides of the I videotaped the window, I videotaped

out back the burn patterns or the char marks

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going up the rear of the property, I videotaped the garage area and the car in the driveway. was a general overview of the exterior of the house. Q Why did you videotape the window? Was It

there something about it that you felt was necessary to videotape? A No. Just so the videotape was

complete, windows, doors, the roof of the house, everything. Q Okay. Was there any kind of

particular char marks or evidence of fire near the window that attracted you to -- any window. I'm not limiting it to a window. Any window

that attracted you to videotape a particular

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window? A Q No. How about with the doors, any

particular fire marks or char marks or anything that attracted your attention to videotaping any particular door in the house? A Q Nothing that stood out. Okay. How many doors do you recall

being in the home? MR. SANTARONE: you're talking about? Exit doors,

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MR. CREEDON:

Well, doors in

He walked around the

THE WITNESS: counting garage doors? MR. CREEDON:

Are you

Let's exclude

the garage doors first and then we'll add them afterwards. I am going to

call them pedestrian doors, if I can use that, that you would normally associate with a person walking in and out as opposed to a vehicle going in and out.

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THE WITNESS: three, possibly four. BY MR. CREEDON: Q

I believe

And to be complete, were there also

garage doors? A Q Yes, there was. And was this a single-car garage,

double-car garage, triple? A Q A It was a two-car garage. Were the garage doors open? I believe one door was open, one door

was closed.

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Q

And were you able to see whether or

not there was a door inside the garage that appeared to lead into the home at some point? A At that point, I could not see inside

the garage. Q Were there any other things that you

videotaped, debris, whatever, that were not on the house, but maybe on the premises, or the property might be a better term, you know, such as a lawn, the driveway, whatever? Did you

videotape anything along those lines? A I am sure I would have gotten the lawn

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and the driveway in the shot. Q Okay. Do you recall any particular

type of debris that you may also have gotten in any of those shots? A At that point, I don't think there was

any debris outside of the house. Q And approximately how long do you

think it took you to do the videotaping of the home? A Q Five to ten minutes. And one other thing I should ask you:

Did you walk to a particular point on a side of the house, whichever side it might have been, stop and then videotape from the stop position,

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as opposed to a continuous videotape as you walked all the way around? videotaping? A I probably would have done both. The How did you do the

walking around makes the camera jitter.

So I

believe I would have tried to walk around, but I am almost sure I would have stopped also and panned the camera around the house. Q After you completed your videotape,

what did you do then?

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A

I completed my videotape.

At some I remember we And Tom

point, Detective Tidwell arrived.

again both spoke to the fire marshal.

Sullivan led us through the downstairs of the house and then showed us the fire scene. Q Approximately what time do you think

that happened, actually going into the house? A be dawn. I honestly can't say. It wasn't light out. It appeared to But as I

remember, it wasn't as dark as it was when we arrived. Q And I didn't ask you this, but how

long do you think it took you to do your videotaping of the perimeter of the home? A About five to ten minutes.

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Q

And after you saw the scene with Fire

Marshal Sullivan and Detective Tidwell, what did you do then? A Basically, I stayed on scene. I

stayed there to assist the fire marshal in any way I could. My functions at that point -- I

didn't do a whole lot more at the scene that morning. Q Do you recall how long you stayed at

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the scene? A I don't recall specifically, but I

know I had to be in juvenile court leaving the station at about eight o'clock. So I know I

left the scene prior to eight o'clock, but I can't tell you exactly when I left Hoffman Road. Q Did you return to Hoffman Road that

day after making your trip to juvenile court? A Q return? A Q Approximately 1:30 p.m. When you returned, was anyone from the Eventually, yes, I did. Approximately what time did you

Pennsylvania State Police fire marshal investigative division present? A Q No. Were you informed when you returned

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that there had been somebody from the Pennsylvania State Police present that day? A I believe while at the scene -- and I

know this from past experience -- the fire marshal probably told me that there was a PSP trooper there. him at any time. I did not meet him or talk to

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Q

When you returned to the scene at

about 1:30 in the afternoon, who, if anyone, was present at that point? A Tom Sullivan was there, a man by the

name of Steve Benedek was there from State Farm, and Paul Camiolo was there. I'm sorry. There

was someone with Mr. Benedek, but I never knew who that was. Q Do you know someone by the name of

Walter Kerr, you know, from your professional career? A At that point, no, I did not know

Walter Kerr. Q A Did you meet him subsequently? Subsequently, I met Mr. Kerr. I

believe once. Q Okay. Was Walter Kerr the person

present with Mr. Benedek, if you know?

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A Kerr. Q

No, I don't believe it was Walter

I believe there is a man named Johnson

who might have been the actual -- you know, the State Farm agent that the Camiolos used. Do you know if that was the person who

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was present? A Q I don't know. Did you know Mr. Benedek from your

professional career prior to the date of the fire at the Camiolo residence? A Q No, I did not. Have you professionally had contact

with Mr. Benedek since that fire, since the Camiolo fire and up to the present time? A Q In regards to the Camiolo fire or -Let's just do it with professional

contact, first of all, and then I will try to break it out from there. Have you had professional contacts with Mr. Benedek since September 30th, 1996 up to the present time? A Q Yes. Were any of those contacts related to

matters other than the Camiolo case? A No.

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Q

Okay.

Approximately how many contacts

did you have with Mr. Benedek after September 30, 1996? A I believe I had one.

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Q

Do you have any idea approximately

when that occurred? A Q contact? A On instructions from Mr. Mark Miller, 11/4/96 at 1:05 p.m. And what was the purpose of that

I called Mr. Benedek. Q And Mark Miller was an assistant

district attorney in Montgomery County at the time? A attorney. The reason I called Mr. Benedek was to find out if he knew who had entered the Camiolo house between the fire date and November 1st, 1996. Q A And why was that? Because I wanted to know if anyone in That's correct. The deputy district

the house entered -- who entered that house and if they entered that house, did they take any equipment in that required any sort of gasoline,

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kerosene, oil, things like that. Q And I understand that November the 1st

is the date that a search warrant was executed

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at the Camiolo residence? A Q That's correct. Did Mr. Benedek advise you that anyone

had been in the Camiolo residence between September 30, 1996 and prior to 11/1 of -November 1st of 1996? A Q A Yes. And who was that? Mr. Benedek told me that he had been

in the house, a man by the name of James Batinger, B-A-T-I-N-G-E-R, had been in the house, a man by the name of Robert Johnson had been in the house -- Johnston. Q I may have misspoke. That is the

person I was trying to identify before. A A man by the name of Robert McCullough

had been in the house, a man by the name of Thomas Finachio, F-I-N-A-C-H-I-O, had been in the house. Q please. A Q Can you spell that again for me, I'm sorry. I spelled it F-I-N-A-C-H-I-O. And what was his first name?

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A

Thomas.

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Q A

Anyone else? They are the people that Mr. Benedek

recalled possibly going in the house. Q Okay. And did he tell you what the

purpose of those people going in the house were? A More or less, he told me what their

titles were and perhaps why they would have went in the house. Q And what was your understanding of why

these people may have gone into the house? A Some of them, Mr. Batinger,

Mr. Johnston, were employees of State Farm. Mr. McCullough and Mr. Finachio were contractors that dealt with fire restoration for houses. Q And were they contractors that had

been hired by State Farm to give them an estimate on the repair of the house, if you know? A Q I don't know. And did he indicate to you that any

type of equipment had been used by any of these people in the home? A He could only speak for himself. What

I eventually did is I called all these people

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

and I asked them that question. Mr. Benedek said that he had not taken any power equipment or fuel into the house. Q And when you called the others, what

did they indicate to you? A They told me if they had or had not

been in the house, if they -- they all indicated that they did not take any gasoline, kerosene, things like that into the house. Q Other than those people, did you

attempt to ascertain whether any other persons had been inside the Camiolo residence between September 30 and November 1st of 1996? A No, I didn't. But I did know that the

house had been boarded up. Q A the fire. And when was the house boarded up? I'm not exactly sure. Sometime after

I would assume shortly after the

fire, but I don't know exactly when. Q As part of your duties as a police

officer, did you have any responsibility in seeing that the house became boarded up following this type of fire or is that something the fire marshal's office handled?

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A

In this case, that was something that

the fire marshal would have handled. Q Did you ever learn at any point that

there was a possibility that other people other than the ones you have told me about may have been in the house from whatever source after September 30th and before November 1st, 1996? A Q No. Do you know if anyone on behalf of the

State Farm Insurance Company took samples to have analyzed from the Camiolo residence? A Q know? A I don't know when it occurred, but it Yes. Okay. When did that occur, if you

was my understanding that Mr. Kerr may have taken samples. Q And would that have been after

November the 1st of 1996, at some point after that date? A Q Yes. All right. How long were you on the

scene when you went back at 1:30 in the afternoon at the Camiolo residence, if you

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recall? A p.m. Q And you told me that you spoke, I I was there approximately until 2:15

guess, with Mr. Benedek, did you not, at that time, at least to introduce yourself or he introduced himself to you? A He may have introduced himself to me,

he probably did, but that would have been the extent of any conversation. Q Did you speak with Mr. Sullivan when

you came back to the scene? A Q No. Okay. Did you speak to Paul Camiolo

when you came back to the scene? A Q Yes, I did. Now, is that the first time that you

had seen Paul Camiolo since the fire had been put out? A That is the first time I ever saw

Mr. Camiolo. Q And what do you recall any

conversation that you and Paul Camiolo had that day being?

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A

I took a written question-and-answer We sat on the curb across

statement from him. from his house.

We sat next to each other and I

conducted an interview on the curb. Q And what do you recall the gist of the

session being? A The gist of the session was I was

asking Mr. Camiolo how the fire -- what he knew about the fire. Q And what did he tell you that his

knowledge of the fire was? A Q different? A There is a question-and-answer I would like to look at my statement. Is that it or is it something

statement that I took from Mr. Camiolo. (At this time, a discussion was held off the record.) BY MR. CREEDON: Q So without looking at your sheet, you

don't recall right now what the substance of Paul's response to your questioning was on that day? A I recall the substance, but I would

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like to get it exact. Q All right. What is your recollection

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just sitting here as to what the gist of Paul's response to you was? And then you can

supplement that when we get the exact document in front of you. A parents. That Paul was in his house with his At approximately 4:30 a.m., he was

awakened by a yell from his father, that he got out of bed, he came downstairs, he went into the rec room where he saw his father sitting on a chair and his mother sitting on a couch up against one of the walls. He said he saw a small fire on one of the cushions of the couch. He said his mother He

was patting down the flames with her hand.

said that his father did nothing at the time, that he called 911. Q father? A Yes. Excuse me. Paul called 911. He, being Paul as opposed to Paul's

After the phone call with 911, he told his parents to get out. And as they passed him

going towards the rear of the home towards the

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porch, he went -- he exited the house through the front door. Q Without looking at your notes, do you

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know whether Paul told you he was still on the phone with 911 when his parents passed him or had he completed that call, or don't you know without looking at your notes? A Q I don't know. That is fine. After you completed

taking your question-and-answer notes with Paul, did you make arrangements to meet with him at any other time or did you just say thank you and leave at that point? A I left. That is exactly it, I thanked him and Also, I expressed to him my sympathy

for the death of his father and the injury of his mother. Q Did you attempt to interview anyone

else before you left the scene at 2:15 that day? A Q No, I didn't. Okay. When you completed your session

with Paul, was that right just prior to 2:15 or did you do anything else after you completed your interview with Paul at the scene on the

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30th? A Q No, I didn't. When you went back to the township

that day, did you do anything in addition to what you have already told me about with regard

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to the fire that had occurred at the Camiolo residence? this time. A Q After I interviewed Mr. Camiolo? And you're now back at -- I take it And we're still on September 30th at

you went back to the police department at that point? A Q A That's correct. Did you do anything further that day? The only other thing I may have done

that day when I got back was faxed Mr. Cometa a copy of Paul's interview with me because Paul had asked that I do that. If I didn't fax it

that day, I faxed it soon thereafter. Q And had Paul provided you with all the

information with respect to Mr. Cometa to enable you to do that or did you have to obtain some of that information after contacting Mr. Cometa, that is, the fax information?

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A

I believe Mr. Camiolo gave me

Mr. Cometa's fax -- or his phone number. Mr. Cometa then would have given me his fax number. Mr. Creedon, if I could back up. Q Go ahead.

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A

At the interview, when the interview

concluded, I also asked for a copy of -- I had Mr. Camiolo sign a waiver for his medical records. Q And was that standard or was there a

particular reason that you asked for that waiver? A Q That was standard. When you were at the scene, did

Mr. Benedek indicate that he had spoken to Mr. Camiolo to you? A Q No. Okay. I didn't speak to Mr. Benedek. How about Mr. Johnston, if he

was there, did he indicate that he had had any conversation with Mr. Camiolo? A Q No. And I didn't speak to him either. When you went back to the

All right.

office, did you formalize the statement that

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Mr. Camiolo had given you in any manner, in other words, have it typed or dictate from your handwritten notes of that statement? A No, I did not. The statement stands

on its own.

It is signed by Mr. Camiolo and it

becomes the statement or interview. Q left? And you had him sign it before you

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A

I had him read through it.

I told him

to make any corrections that he wished and then I asked him to sign and date it, which he did. Q When you were taking the statement

from Mr. Camiolo, what was his physical condition like? A Q His physical condition was fine. Had he told you that the personnel at

the hospital had wanted to keep him, but he did not want to stay in the hospital? A I believe -- and again, without

looking at my statement, I believe he said something to that effect, that he chose to leave the hospital. He did have some gauze wrap, I believe, on his facial area or his neck area and

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he told me that he had some burns of his face, which I could see. Q And did he mention anything about

having smoke inhalation? A Q No, he didn't. Was Mr. Camiolo cooperative when you

took the statement from him? A Q Yes. Okay. And after you got back to the

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office, when you faxed Mr. Cometa, whether it was that day or the next day, the statement, did you prepare any other type of document, like a cover letter or a fax cover sheet or anything like that that went along with the statement? A I probably would have prepared just a

to/from sheet, but with no -- the narrative could have said, Mr. Cometa, here is Paul's interview. Q Does that conclude what you did with

regard to the Camiolo fire on September 30? A Q Yes. Okay. When is the next time you had

any involvement with the fire at the Camiolo residence, date -- you know, time line-wise?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

A excuse me.

I would have the next day or so -For the next few days, I was making She had I

attempts to interview Rosalie Camiolo. been transferred to St. Agnes Hospital.

called there to check on her condition to see if she could be interviewed. Each time I was told

by the nurse that she was uninterviewable. The phone calls to the hospital were the only things I did in reference to this case at that point. Q Did the nurse give you a reason why

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you couldn't interview Mrs. Camiolo? A She said she was -- I don't remember

if she gave specific reasons, only that she was -- I knew that she had been intubated at Abington Hospital and that she was not interviewable and -- not interviewable. Q Okay. And after making attempts over

several days to interview Rosalie Camiolo, what did you do next? A Q Basically, I did nothing else. Over what period of time did you --

because I take it there came a point in time where you started doing things again. So how

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long of a time period are we talking before you started doing additional investigation into the Camiolo fire? A The next time I did something on this

case was October 30th, 1996. Q Okay. And by that point, there had

been -- the Pennsylvania State Police analysis of some samples that had been taken at the scene had come back; is that correct? A Q That was the day they came back. Okay. And is that the day you became

aware of them, on October the 30th?

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A Q

Yes. All right. What did you do on October

the 30th of 1996? A I took a phone call from Detective

Tidwell who was in his car coming from the Bethlehem lab of the state police. And he told

me that the samples that were taken on the day of the fire had come back with an accelerant in it. I waited for Detective Tidwell to come back

to the station. Q Prior to your leaving the fire scene

back on the 30th of September, had there been

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any discussion in your presence about the taking of samples at the fire scene? A Q No. Okay. When did you learn samples had

been taken at the fire scene on September 30th? A I probably would have learned that

samples were taken the afternoon after the fire on September 30th. scene. I didn't find out at the

But once I got back and I spoke to

Detective Tidwell, I got back from court, I knew that they took samples. Q All right. When Detective Tidwell

arrived back on October the 30th, what happened at that point?

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A

I was there when Detective Tidwell

called Deputy Chief Tim Woodward of the county detectives and told him of the lab report. Q And what was your understanding of

what was going to happen, you know, as a result of being present for that conversation? A We were going to meet with Deputy

Chief Woodward the next day. Q And after that conversation occurred,

did you and Detective Tidwell discuss any plan

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of action amongst yourselves to do prior to your meeting with Mr. Woodward? A No. The only thing we did was we went And

and we told Chief Stauch of the lab report. we would have told Tom Sullivan also. Q And that would have been just those

three persons were told by you of the lab report, the results of the lab report? A Q As far as I know, yes. Okay. When did the meeting with Was that in the

Mr. Woodward take place?

morning or the afternoon of the 31st? A the 31st. Q And what happened at that meeting? That would have been at 11:30 a.m. on

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16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 BY MR. CREEDON: Q

MR. SANTARONE:

Do you want

to see who was present first? MR. CREEDON: Yes.

Who was present at the meeting besides

Mr. Woodward and I take it yourself, since you're referring to your report? A I was there, Detective Tidwell was

there, Mr. Woodward was there, Montgomery County

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Detective Stan Kadelski and Montgomery County Detective John Phalen were there. Q A Q Anyone else? No. And what do you recall being discussed

at that meeting? A We discussed the lab finding. And it

was agreed that because we did not have the photographs of the initial scene we would meet again on the 1st and we would bring the photographs. Q A Q Was anything else done on the 31st? Not at the meeting, no. Subsequent to the meeting, was

anything done on the 31st? A At 2:00 p.m., Detective Tidwell and I We told him that we had

met with Tom Sullivan.

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been to the county detectives to meet and that we were going back tomorrow when the photographs were developed. Q Did you ask him to attend the meeting

the next day? A Q No, I didn't. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

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A

Also, on the 31st at approximately

3:00 p.m., I received a call from Pennsylvania State Trooper Bob Kline who offered to perform an independent investigation of the fire. Trooper Kline told me he had already spoken to Detective Kadelski. Q Did he indicate he had spoken with

anyone else? A Q review? A Q Yes. And when was the independent review He did not tell me. Did you agree to that independent

supposed to take place? A What we did was when we went to the

county detectives at 10:00 a.m. on the 1st, Trooper Kline was there, so the independent investigation, I would assume, started at that

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point. Q Let's go back. Did anything else

happen on the 31st after you spoke with Trooper Kline? A Q No. Did you have any meetings internally

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within the Upper Moreland Police Department with regard to any actions that you might want to take, you know, on the 31st before going back to meet with the district attorney and county detectives on the 1st? A No. The only thing is we would have

told Chief Stauch that we had been to the meeting and that we were going back tomorrow. Q When you report to Chief Stauch on an

ongoing investigation, as this had become, is that something that you have to formalize in terms of memoranda or is that just something you do verbally whenever you can see him on a particular day? A We did it verbally when there was

something we thought that he should be advised of. Q And after you gave him a verbal, did

you ever reduce that to writing and pass it on to him?

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A

There came a point where I would give And they were typed on --

him daily updates.

they were typed and I would give them to him. Q Do you recall when you began to type

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daily updates? A Detective Tidwell told me I should And I started

start giving them to the chief. almost immediately. case file.

Again, I have them in the

I don't know what the first date is,

but I think I can safely say that I started giving the chief written daily updates, very brief, on generally what we were doing almost immediately. MR. SANTARONE: immediately after what? THE WITNESS: Almost Almost

immediately after the 1st, November 1st. BY MR. CREEDON: Q Okay. And is that because as of the

time you got the lab reports back that this now had turned into a potential homicide investigation? A Q That is correct. Was there a standard procedure within

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the Upper Moreland Township Police Department concerning keeping the chief advised of all potential homicide investigations or is that

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just something you did as a matter of course? A There is a general order that says we

should keep superior officers informed of major investigations or felony cases. Q When you went back to meet again with

Mr. Woodward and Detectives Kadelski and Phalen on the 1st, were you anticipating that this was just going to be you and Detective Tidwell and they as had been present on the 31st or were you expecting that there would be others present at that meeting prior to your leaving for it? A I had no expectations of anything at

that point. Q All right. Besides yourself and

Detective Tidwell, now you told me that State Police Officer Kline was present. present on the 1st when you met? A On the 1st, it was me, Detective Who else was

Tidwell, Trooper Kline, Detective Kadelski, and eventually ADA Mark Miller. Q Mr. Woodward was not present on the

day of the second meeting, November the 1st? A Mr. Woodward was in the office and in

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and out, but he was not actively participating

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in that meeting. Q And the same with Detective Phalen, he

was not present at all? A Detective Phalen in my report I have

as was there. Q Okay. Anyone else that was there that

you recall? A Q No. Was ADA Miller present for the entire

meeting or did he come after a certain point in time at the meeting? A Q He came after a certain point in time. Was it pre-planned that he would

arrive after a certain point; in other words, you set the meeting up for 10:00, but you knew he wasn't going to be available until 11:00 because of his commitments? Was it something

along those lines or was it just you're having a meeting and then at a certain point he just showed up? A It was not pre-planned. Soon into the

meeting, Detective Kadelski made the decision to call -- he actually called for Mr. Castor who was at that time the first assistant.

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Mr. Castor was not in his office, so he called Mr. Miller and asked Mr. Miller to come to the office immediately. Q So Mr. Miller came down. What was the

purpose of bringing him into the meeting, if you know? A The purpose was for him to review the

case and to basically take charge of it. Q And at that point, did you think a

search warrant was going to be necessary and you wanted to have that executed through him? A That is what Trooper Kline had

recommended at the start of the meeting. Q Prior to Trooper Kline's

recommendation, had anybody discussed either on the 31st or the 1st getting a search warrant? A Q I don't recall. And after Assistant District Attorney

Miller arrived, what happened at the meeting? A Mr. Miller was briefed on the

circumstances of why he was called to the office. He reviewed the paperwork that I I'm sure he reviewed And

brought with me. photographs.

He listened to Trooper Kline.

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then he made the decision that we should draft a search warrant for 4130 Hoffman Road and I believe for medical records. Q have been? A Rose Camiolo's. And I am not sure And whose medical records would they

if -- I believe just Rose Camiolo's. Q What was the purpose of drafting the

search warrant for her medical records? A To see if -- without looking at the

search warrant, I can't sit here and say. Q Did you already have records from a

medical examiner with regard to Edward Camiolo at that point? A Q At that point, we may have, yes. And is that why you did not need to

execute a search warrant for his medical records as well? A Q In reference to the fire, yes. Was the warrant envisioned to

accomplish anything else other than going to 4130 Hoffman Road and obtaining Rose Camiolo's records? A No. They were two separate warrants.

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There was a warrant to go to a hospital to get Mrs. Camiolo's medical records. And the 4130

Hoffman Road warrant was written in order to go and take additional samples at the fire scene and to additionally document the scene. Q Did you know where the samples had

actually been taken from by the time you went to these meetings at the district attorney's office? The samples that had been read by the

state police lab as coming back showing the use of an accelerant, did you know where they had been taken from the Camiolo residence? A Q that? A Because Detective Tidwell told me and Yes, I knew the general area. Okay. And how did you know about

I believe some of the photographs actually show the samples being taken. Q And how long did it take you to obtain

these warrants on the 1st? A I can tell you, Mr. Creedon, we were It took time

at the county detectives all day.

to draft it, it took time to find a judge, and then it took time for us to walk over to the

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courthouse and get it signed. Q It is my understanding that the

warrant was then executed on the same day; is that correct? A Q That's correct. Approximately what time was the

warrant executed? A The warrant was executed at 5:00 p.m.

on November 1st, 1996. Q Okay. And who was present when the

warrant was executed? A Detective Kadelski, Detective Phalen, There were also two second

Trooper Kline and I.

alarmers that came to the house on our request in order to help us gain entry into the boarded-up house. was not there. Q A But he came later? There came a point where he came. Initially, Detective Tidwell

It's my recollection that he did not stay that long. But yes, there came a point that he did

come to Hoffman Road. Q Did the second alarmers provide any

assistance other than gaining of entry?

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A Q

They provided us with some lighting. Did they have anything to do with

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assisting in the actual taking of any samples that may have been taken that day? A Q None whatsoever. Okay. Who physically took any samples

that may have been taken on November the 1st? A The samples were being physically I would have to look at

taken by Trooper Kline.

my evidence log, but I believe Detective Kadelski and/or Phalen might have assisted him in the physical taking of it. was the one taking the samples. Q Okay. Besides the taking of -- I'm But generally, he

going to call them additional samples since there were samples that had been taken previously. Was anything else of significance

gleaned from the execution of the search warrant on November the 1st? A As Trooper Kline took samples, one in

particular, when he lifted a piece of carpet strip, I believe it was, a divider for carpet and flooring, I and the other people in the house conducting the search immediately smelled

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gasoline fumes. Q Prior to that strip being lifted up,

had anyone smelled gasoline fumes to your

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knowledge? A Q No. At least no one had commented that

they had smelled gasoline fumes to that point? A Q That's correct. How long into the search, if you

recall, was it before the gasoline fumes were smelled? A Again, Mr. Creedon, if I looked at my

evidence log, I could tell you when the strip was brought up. Q There would be a time on the evidence

log that indicates when that strip was removed? A Q When it was collected, that's correct. I think I have that, but I will wait

until I finish. A And, Mr. Creedon, you asked, you

know -- we additionally photographed, we videotaped again. I did. Another thing that

was found was a zigzagging burn mark in the floor of the rec room. Trooper Kline thought

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that was significant. Q All right. So we have the additional Now,

samples, we have the gasoline fumes. photos were taken? A Uh-huh.

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Q

Were those photos limited to the areas

that were being sampled and -- strike that. What were the photos taken of, if you remember? A Detective Phalen was taking the still I believe he was photographing the

photographs.

evidence location and then documenting the things that were being collected. Q So he was not taking random

photographs of the room, he was taking specific photographs as to where items were being sampled? A Q Yes. How about the videotape that you took,

was that similarly focused on the samples that were being collected or was that samples plus something else? A Q It was samples. The zigzagging burn pattern, do you

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know if that was present on September 30th or not? A I don't know if it was present. I did

not have the opportunity to see it, or I did not see it. And if I could, I can tell you why.

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Q A

Sure.

Go ahead.

The day of the fire on the 30th, the

room, the rec room, as I call it, was taped off. I did not physically go into the room and look around things. Also, there was a tremendous amount of debris in the room, including on top of the floor. When Trooper Kline went back to the house on the 1st, that debris had generally been removed and Trooper Kline used water to reveal the floor and reveal the mark. Q A Q removed? A No, I don't. MR. CREEDON: Let's take a Do you know who removed the debris? No, I don't. Do you know how the debris had been

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break. (At this time, a short break was taken.) BY MR. CREEDON: Q Anything else of significance that you

recall being present when the search warrant was executed on November the 1st other than what you just told me about?

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A

The last thing of significance

occurred at the end of the night when I talked to Trooper Kline and Trooper Kline told me in his opinion after doing what he had done at the house and at the county detective's office it was his opinion that this fire was an arson. Q Did he give you any factual foundation

for his opinion or did he just say it is my opinion this is arson and leave it at that? A arson. At that point, he just said it was an But throughout the night when he pulled

up the strip and we smelled gasoline, as he found the zigzagging lines, he would describe to me what they were and what their significance was. And he made the -- there was no doubt

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in his mind and in my mind after listening to him that he thought this fire was an arson. Q Were any samples of the gasoline that

was found under the strip taken? A Q back. When you pulled up the strip, was it just an odor of gasoline that you noticed right (No audible response.) Maybe I misunderstood. Let me go

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away or was there some physical gasoline present as well? A Q It was an odor. Okay. Were samples then taken of the

area where this odor had emanated from? A Q Yes. Okay. Do you recall as you sit here

where that odor may have been from? A I believe it was from the actual

physical carpet strip and/or the wood underneath of it. The actual carpet strip was taken,

collected, and the wood underneath of it. Q Poor question on my part. Do you recall where within the rec room that strip of carpet and the wood

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underneath of it was taken from, you know, which part of the room? A To be sure, could I -- again, if I see

my evidence log -Q A It is on the evidence log? -- I can tell you. MR. CREEDON: this as Kerrigan 2. (At this time, Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.) BY MR. CREEDON: So we'll mark

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Q

What has been marked now as Kerrigan

2, Detective, is that the evidence log you have been referring to? A Q Yes. And does that help you to tell when

and where any specific sample was taken? A Q Yes, it does. Okay. You began executing the search

warrant at 5:00 p.m. on the 1st, I think you told me. A Q How long did the execution take? The search concluded at 11:48 p.m. Okay. And approximately when during

the search were the samples taken, or is this

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something that happened -- strike that. When you took the samples, you know, did you go through the house, look at various things, and then decide, okay, we're going to go back, we're going to take samples in this area so that all the samples were taken in a relatively close time period together or had you gone through and said, well, let's take a sample here, and then go and look at some other things, you know, so that the samples weren't all taken necessarily one right after the other, but were taken over a time period, if you understood what

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I mean there? A I understood. We did a walk-through

of the area and then at 5:44 we began taking samples. Q How long did it take you to complete

the sampling process? A The last -- I can tell you,

Mr. Creedon, the last entry in the evidence log is 2348, which would be 11:48. that I did. That is a sketch

The last sample appears to have

been taken at 11:17 p.m. Q Did you have to wait for certain types

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of equipment to come in order to take samples, such as saws, hammers, pry-bars, whatever, or did you already have that equipment with you when you entered the premises at 5:00 p.m.? A equipment. Trooper Kline brought all that The only thing that we asked for and

received additionally was Trooper Kline needed some more sterile paint cans which act as containers for these samples. Other than that,

Trooper Kline brought all the equipment with him. Q All right. Now, I think we were

talking about a sample that had the odor or aroma of gasoline that was taken. And you

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indicated to me you could tell from the evidence log where and when that sample was taken? A sample -Q And I was just going to say that if it The sample that I am referring to is

has a designated number, would you tell us what number it was. A It would be Item Number 15. It was

collected at 2027 hours.

It was collected by It was a

Trooper Kline and Detective Phalen.

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piece of metal carpet strip and it was collected from the floor of the doorway between the kitchen and the family room of 4130 Hoffman Road. Item Number 16 was a piece of hardwood floor also collected by Trooper Kline and Detective Phalen. It was collected at 2033

hours and it was directly underneath Item 15. Q A Q What time was that, 2053 hours? 2033 hours. Prior to pulling the metallic strip

up, had anyone commented that they had smelled gasoline on the premises while the execution of the warrant was taking place on November the 1st, 1996?

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A Q A

Yes.

Trooper Kline had.

And when had he made such comments? When he began collecting pieces of

carpet, carpet padding, and flooring, he would sniff all of them. And on some of them he said

he smelled gasoline or he smelled gasoline or kerosene. I don't recall exactly what he said

he smelled, but he was smelling pieces of flooring and carpet and padding that he was

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bringing up and he was commenting that he smelled something. Q When you did the walk-through

immediately after the execution of the search warrant began -- which I think took about 44 minutes. I think you said you were there at

five o'clock and at 5:44 the sampling began. During that 44-minute stretch, had anyone at that point commented that they smelled gasoline, kerosene, or any other substance in the Camiolo home? A No, I don't believe anyone did. I

know I did not. Q Okay. Other than Trooper Kline, did

anyone else comment that they smelled gasoline, kerosene, or any other substance while the collection process was going on?

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A

Trooper Kline was allowing other

people, Detective Kadelski and Phalen, to smell the object. And I believe they could smell what I don't recall if I actually

Trooper Kline was.

smelled those things, but I remember him saying, here, smell this. Q Now, was this the type of situation

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where -- let's start with Trooper Kline -- he had to physically bring the object close to his face to smell it or was he just -- I'm going to say getting in a close proximity and inhaling, you know, and indicating that he was smelling the aroma -- the odor of whatever, gasoline, kerosene, or whatever substance? A Other than the carpet strip, the

pieces of flooring and carpet, yes, he was bringing them physically up close to his nose and smelling them and smelling it that way. Q Okay. What was different with the

carpet strip? A The carpet strip, we could just -- the

minute it is disturbed, we can smell it. So Trooper Kline, nor any one of us had to bring it up to our nose to smell the carpet strip. We could smell it from where we

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were standing. Q So even though you may not have

smelled any of the other items that Trooper Kline indicated, you didn't even have to be in physical proximity to smell the carpet strip? You personally, I'm talking about.

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A

No.

In fact, I was the furthest away

from that carpet strip and I was for all intents and purposes across on the other side of the family room and I could smell it. Q Prior to Trooper Kline removing the

carpet strip in question, do you know if anyone else had physically handled that carpet strip between September 30th and November the 1st of 1996? A Q No, I don't know that. The county detectives, when they

were -- other than the carpet strip, when they were shown the other samples, did they also have to bring them physically close to their nose to smell them? A Q I believe that they did. Anything else of significance that you

recall with respect to the execution of the search warrant that night? A No.

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Q

Was Detective Tidwell present when

Trooper Kline made his comments to you that he thought that this was an arson? A No, he was not.

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Q

Did Trooper Kline give you -- well,

you told me he was pointing things out to you as he went. Okay? And when he said, okay, this is

arson, did he say, well, I think this is arson because we have the presence of an accelerant and these patterns that I see on the floor or did he limit it in any way to the patterns on the floor are enough to conclude this is arson, the accelerant by itself is enough to conclude it is arson, anything along there? recall anything along those lines? A I really don't recall, Mr. Creedon. Do you

Mr. Creedon, if I could go back? Q A Yes. You asked things that we did. Trooper

Kline also made it a point -- and we all went out back and viewed this. He made it a point to

go out and look at the furniture that had been in the room, apparently. backyard. It was now in the

He made a point to basically

reconstruct the way that the room had been set

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up and to look at all of the pieces of furniture and to examine them. Q And was there anything significant

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gained from the reconstruction of the configuration of the room that you recall? A Q A Q He felt that there was. And what was that? Again, I'm not the fire expert. Let me phrase it this way: Did he

tell you that he thought there was something significant after he reconfigured the room? A He spoke about the burn patterns and

the charring of the furniture or the lack thereof. And he felt that was significant and

added to the ultimate -- his ultimate conclusion of arson. Q Was there any particular piece of

furniture that he pointed to that had a lack of charring? A furniture. No, there was no specific piece of But he commented that there was a

larger couch on another wall and that that did not have the damage that the couch that Mrs. Camiolo was on at the time of the fire had. And he viewed that. Q Okay. Were any of the samples that

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were taken on the night of November the 1st,

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evening and night of November the 1st, 1996 in the area of the two couches you just spoke about? A Q A Yes. And do you know what numbers they are? Samples that were taken that were near

where those couches were in the room would have been Samples 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14. And we have already discussed 15 and 16. The

metal strip was not that far away from the couch Mrs. Camiolo had been on. Q Maybe I ought to do it this way too What samples were close to the

just to be sure:

couch other than 15 and 16 where Mrs. Camiolo was located and then what samples were close to the second couch that you referred to? A couch. couch. Okay. I will start with the second

Samples 6 and 7 were taken near that And they're actually listed as our We were in an area of the room

control samples.

in the area of that second couch which Trooper Kline determined that the control should be taken from that point. Q Any other samples taken near that

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couch? A That is what I am reading through.

Sample Number 12 was actually taken directly below Sample Number 7, which, again, was a control sample near that second couch that you're speaking of. MR. SANTARONE: Mike. Sheryl is here. (Brief interruption.) BY MR. CREEDON: Q A Any other sample near that couch? As I look through the log, they are Excuse me,

the samples near that couch. Q And then would the remaining numbers

that you had just given me all been taken near the couch Mrs. Camiolo was on? A Q Yes. Let me show you a diagram that we have Okay? There is a number 9 on

used previously. here.

And I think somebody -- I think that was

put there by Mr. Wert referring to -- or was that Mr. Sullivan? MR. SANTARONE: record. Off the

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(At this time, a discussion was held off the record.) BY MR. CREEDON: Q So you're not influenced by it, there It was put there

is a number that is on there. by someone else.

I would like you to go through

the numbers we just went through and put them around the areas of the couches that you just referred to. please. (At this time, Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.) BY MR. CREEDON: Q And let me tell you that Kerrigan 3 to And let's call this Kerrigan 3,

my understanding is a diagram of both the downstairs and upstairs of the Camiolo home as we previously identified in other depositions. If you disagree with that when you see it, please tell me that. You know, don't mark

anything that you don't agree that that is a diagram of the Camiolo home. A Mr. Creedon, the only thing I would

ask is within my case file I know I made what you are asking me to do on one of these the

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night of the search warrant. see that.

If I could ask to

The reason is I don't -- that

previous one is my better recollection and I wouldn't want this one to differ -Q I don't know that I was given your

case file, per se, because I was given materials given to me by Mr. Cometa. So I can't represent But let me take a

I have all of your case file.

look at what was just brought over because there may be something else in there. (Brief recess.) BY MR. CREEDON: Q Detective, based on your evidence log,

can you at least give me a rough approximation using the diagram that we have marked as Kerrigan 3 as to where the samples we just referred to as being taken around the two couches were by using the numbers of those samples rather than writing it because I think it will be easier to put the numbers and the approximate location of those numbers? A Q Yes, I can. And since you told me that there were

certain samples that were taken from underneath

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of other samples, can we have this agreement -for instance, the last one you mentioned was Sample 12 was taken from underneath of Sample 7. So could we put the 12 below the number 7 once you indicate where the number 7 is to indicate that that was taken below it? And similarly,

with any other samples that were taken below another sample, if you could put the number below the first sample. A complies.) Q Detective, you have been kind enough I will try to do that. (witness

to mark in red the various locations that you believe from reviewing the evidence log that had previously been marked as Kerrigan 2, I think, onto Kerrigan 3 where the samples were taken from. Now, on what is marked as the family room on the diagram, there appears to be a three-section couch with a table at either end of it; is that correct? Is that what that

represents to your knowledge? A That is what that represents, But just for the record, the

Mr. Creedon.

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diagram is a before-the-fact rendering of the room. When we were there on the 1st, none of

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the furniture was in the room. Q A Q Was present? Correct. And all I'm trying to get at --

because you have marked certain things on that diagram as it is that some of the samples were taken from what looks to be one of the table areas next to the couch, which is also behind what appears to be a rendering of the stairway, because the word up in the stairway is behind two of those samples. A I see those. Do you see those? And what I was depicting

is the samples were 15 from the floor, which would have been underneath this table. Q A Okay. But the table wasn't there. None of

the furniture we see in this diagram was present. Q A Q I understand that. Okay. Now, it looks like a number of the

samples were taken from behind what seems to be

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some sort of chair that is being depicted in the diagram and going across the entranceway between the family room and the kitchen; is that

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correct? A That is generally correct. What you

asked me to do, and I did, was Sample 8, 9, 10 and 11 are stacked on each other. Q A Right. They were all right here. They

don't -- the way you would look at it, you would initially think that they are coming across. They're actually all in one spot. Q A Q A So 8 is the spot? 8 is the spot. Not X. Correct. 8? As 15 would be the spot, as

6 would be the spot. Q spot is 8. Okay. So let's do that. So then the

So that is really closer to the

chair, but between the chair and what appears to be a wall that is drawn in, approximately? A Approximately. When I read over my

log, 8 would be much closer to this wall. Q Okay.

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A

The way it is depicted here.

It is

obviously not to scale. have it in the center. closer to this wall. number is drawn.

And it looks like I But it is -- 8 is much

Actually, where that

(Witness indicating.)

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Q

Where that number was drawn by whoever

put the 9 in there? A Q That's correct. And did you put the 8, 9, 10 and 11

the way you did because physically on the diagram you needed to be able to write those numbers that way? A Q That's correct. And rather than write back over the

number and misconstrue what you were writing, you chose to write it that way? A Q That is correct. But if I were looking at it from an

overhead view, it would be more -- I would be looking right down at maybe where the top of this circular part of the 9 -- the part closer to me as we're sitting here? A Q In that general area. Okay. Now, what is this over here,

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these numbers, which would be 6 and -- what are the other numbers? A Q 6, 7 and 12. And those samples would have taken one

on top of the other with 6 being the topmost sample, correct?

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A Q A

Correct. So 7 and 12 would have been below 6? That is correct. Those are what

Trooper Kline designated as the control samples. Q Okay. And is the 6 approximately in In other

the correct location of the room?

words, we wouldn't have to move the 6 as we would have to move the 8 in the prior -A Q A Well -Or do you know? I can tell you exactly the location

was 40 inches north of the rear doorjamb against the west rec room wall. This is what was This is

designated as the west rec room wall. the doorjamb. Q (Witness indicating.)

And when you pointed to the west rec

room wall, that is the same wall that I had referred to as having the previous numbers, 8,

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9, 10, 11, between the chair and that wall. that is the west wall? A Q That's correct. Okay.

So

And I realize this is not drawn

to scale, so we don't have a scale for 40 inches. But if we could measure it, it would be

40 inches going west to east? A It would be 40 inches north of the

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rear doorjamb.

So it would come out here and (Witness indicating.)

against the wall. Q A Q

Directly against the wall? Yes. So again, you had to write these

numbers out here so that the numbers would be visible rather than getting them messed up with the rendering of the wall and whatever the object is that is right here near those numbers? A Q That's correct. Okay. Now, Items 15 and 16 appear to

be more centrally located in the doorway between the family room and the kitchen; is that accurate? A Q That's correct. And again, 15 would be on top of 16 if

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we were physically looking down on them? A That's correct. That is the carpet

strip and the wood I referred to earlier. Q As having the odor of gasoline,

kerosene, or whatever substance it was that you were able to smell that night? A Q That's correct. Okay. And what numbers are here in

the area of the table which wasn't there when

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these samples were being taken? A That is Number 13 and 14. And those

samples were next to each other, not on top of each other. Q And were they also immediately next

to -- is this the north or the south wall? A That would be what was designated as

the north wall. Q And would those samples, 13 and 14,

have been next to each other immediately next to the wall or -A Yes. They were at the base of the

north wall of the rec room 9 inches east of the east doorjamb of the family room, first floor hallway. So yes.

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Q

And what were those samples of in that

area, do you recall? A Sample Number 13 was pieces of carpet, Sample Number 14

wallboard and wood baseboard.

was approximately a 9 inch piece of hardwood floor. Q All right. On November the 1st, were

samples taken from any other area of the Camiolo home other than what we have just discussed? Strike that. Let's do it this way: Were samples

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taken from any room other than the family room on November the 1st? A Q A Q Samples? Right. Could you describe samples? What we have just been talking about.

What I'm trying to do is see if there were samples in other rooms of the house. And I

wanted to know which room they would be in and what sample number. But if not, if it is all

taken in that room, you know, I would like to know that too. A To answer your question, no, samples

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were not taken in other parts of the house. Q Okay. Did Trooper Kline specifically

direct where the samples should be removed from? A Q Yes. Did anyone else have any input at all

into where samples should be taken from other than Trooper Kline on November the 1st? A I did not and I don't recall if But Trooper Kline was

anybody else did.

conducting the investigation. Q Did either yourself or Detective

Tidwell request that either Fire Marshal

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Sullivan or the assistant fire marshal be present on November the 1st when you executed the search warrant? A No. Neither of us requested or asked In fact, Trooper He

for Tom Sullivan to be there.

Kline did not want Tom Sullivan there.

wanted to do an independent investigation. Q Do you know if any of the other

samples other than the ones that you have just possibly designated here contained the odor of gasoline, kerosene, or any other substance the night that you executed the search warrant?

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A

We collected gas cans from the house.

I don't know if you -- if that is what you are referring to. Q I'm more looking for a sample, per se,

as opposed to something that was freestanding and independent. A Q from? A The gas cans were collected from -It No. Where were the gas cans collected

Item Number 18 was a red plastic gas can.

was collected at 2317 hours by Detective Phalen and it was located at the rear of the house outside between the rec room door and the patio

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five feet in from the rear south wall. Q A Okay. Yes. Any other gas cans? There was a one-gallon red

plastic gas can, that was Item Number 19, that was collected at 2328 hours by Phalen and Kadelski. And that was located in the west bay

area of the garage on the floor. Q A Any others? Yes. Item Number 20 was a two and a It was

half gallon red plastic gas can.

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collected at 2330 hours by Officer Phalen -- or Detective Phalen. And it was located in the

west bay area of the garage on top of a box between an electric lawn mower and a snowblower. Q A Any others? Yes. There was one more. There was

one other gas can that was collected -- offhand, I would say months after the search. on any of the logs. It is not

I don't think that I have

in front of me the log that I recorded that item. There should be, and I believe there is,

another page to my log where I document that item. It was given to me by Mr. Doyle who ultimately bought the Camiolo house. And he

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found that after he bought the house. Q Is Mr. Doyle a contractor or was he a

private individual or what was he? A He is a private individual, but I do

know that his profession is a building contractor. But he bought the house for

himself, which he still lives in. Q And where did he indicate that this

can was found?

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A Q

Without the log, I can't exactly say. Okay. And this would be some months,

there would be a question mark how many, after November the 1st, 1996, correct? A Q That is correct. Were all of the cans that were located

on November the 1st, 1996 empty? A Q A No. Okay. Which ones were not?

Item Number 18, the red plastic gas It had liquid in it.

can, was not empty. Q

And were the other two that were

collected on that day empty? A Q Yes. Was the gas can turned over to you by

Mr. Doyle empty when it was turned over to you, if you recall?

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A

I don't believe it was empty.

I

believe there was something in it. Q And I think you said that one can was

found on a box near a lawn mower and a snowblower? A Q That is correct. Were there any other items in the

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garage other than an automobile, the lawn mower and snowblower which used gasoline? A Q A Not that I took notice of. How about kerosene? There was an old -- there was a

kerosene space heater in the garage. Q Any other items that used either

gasoline or kerosene aside from an automobile that you located at the Camiolo residence? A Q No. Were samples taken of the zigzag

pattern that Trooper Kline pointed out after he had cleared the floor? A Q No. Were there any patterns other than the

zigzag -- strike that. Where approximately was the zigzag pattern that Trooper Kline pointed out to you,

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if you remember? A The zigzagging pattern would have been

in the center of the room zigzagging towards the west wall, or the back of the room towards the kitchen. Q And when you pointed at what has been

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marked as Kerrigan 3, you put your finger in an up and down motion using -- it looked to me like using family room as kind of like a center point from where your finger was going up and down going from the east towards the west? A Q That's correct. Would this pattern have looked like --

you know how sometimes you see on television, you see when they put the heart monitor on somebody and you see the lines go up and down? Is that the way the pattern looked to you or did it have a different geometric configuration for want of a better term? A I would say it did not look like that It was a

sharp and pronounced of a pattern.

cross between what I have described as a zigzagging and an S motion or looping. Q Did it look like a wave in an

ocean-type thing? A No. It looked like what I have

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described as a zigzagging char mark or black mark. Q Can you kind of give me as best you

can an indication of what the char mark looked

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like? A Q (Witness complies.) Thank you. Other than that char mark

in that approximate location that you have just identified, do you recall seeing any other marks that were identified as a burn pattern? A Again, I wasn't the person that was But I

capable of making those determinations.

don't recall Trooper Kline speaking about anything else in the center of the room. He was finding what I believe he described as black and char marks in this area near where the couch and the table would have been. Q Near what I'm going to say is the west

end of the couch and the western table, if we can designate an east table, west table since there are two of them. A Q That would be fine. Okay. And you agree with me that it

would be the western end of the couch and what

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has been designated as the west table? A Yes. MR. SANTARONE: The table

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closest to the kitchen. MR. CREEDON: THE WITNESS: Also correct. Mr. Creedon,

on the gas can that Mr. Doyle gave to me, he gave it to me on 4/25/97. BY MR. CREEDON: Q So that would have been approximately Maybe a

almost six months later, correct? little more than six months later. A

And it is designated as Item Number

29, which is not on the last page of the log that you gave me. Q Okay. Now, when you were in the

backyard and the room was reconfigured -- strike that -- the room was configured, was the configuration of the room similar to the way the room is configured in the diagram on Kerrigan 3? A It was similar, given the fact that we

didn't have all of the pieces of the furniture or the furniture that we had was severely damaged. Q But in terms of location of a major

item -- and if I can refer to major items as the

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things that are the couch, the tables, if this

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is a chair, whatever this is, the TV, and these type of things that you can see that have been blocked out, was at least something put in the backyard? For instance, if one of the tables

had been completely burned up, was something put, whether it was a piece of paper, a piece of cardboard, anything, to say, okay, this is where the table was? A Q No, that was not done. Okay. So the area would have been

left blank if there was no item removed from the room to correspond to it? A From what I saw, yes. And again, it

was Trooper Kline doing the configuration. Q What was used to configure the room in

the backyard? A Q What model was used? Well, let me do it this way: How did

Trooper Kline know how to configure the room? A You would have to ask him how he But I do know that during my

configured it.

interview with Paul Camiolo I drew a very rough sketch of the way the room was set up asking him if the items -- if I was drawing them correctly.

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He actually made one change or told me one item in the room was different. was his father's electric chair. And that

He told me in

our interview that the chair was more to its right, closer to the outside wall. It is quite possible that Trooper Kline could have reconfigured that room with my help, with me telling him, and by photographs. There were photographs of the room that evening. Those things, again, you would have to ask Trooper Kline. But I would assume that they

helped him configure that room. Q Okay. And when you were pointing to

where Paul Camiolo told you the chair was, you pointed to -- as we're looking at the diagram, closer to me than closer to you in the diagram. And I believe that this area would be designated as the south wall, assuming that this was north. So it would be the wall opposite the north wall, being the south wall, correct? A Q Yes. Did anyone comment from what knowledge

they had up to that point when they observed the configuration of the room in the backyard that,

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hey, we have to change something around because it is not where it was in the house at the time of the fire? A Q No. Okay. So no one had any reason to

believe that the room was not configured similar to the way it was when the fire broke out? A That's correct. And this was not --

this was an extremely -- it appeared to me a rough configuration of the room. Q Right. In the configuration itself

when you are out looking at the actual burned furniture, did Trooper Kline point to any parts of any particular piece or pieces of furniture and make comments about those pieces of furniture to support his theory of arson? A He made comments. I don't recall But I know he

specifically what they were.

would direct Detective Phalen to take a specific photograph of a specific item. Q Okay. And were those photos given any

specific designation that you're aware of other than photographs of -- let's just say other than photographs?

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A Q

No, I'm not aware if they were. Were photographs that you may have

taken versus photographs that Detective Phalen may have taken in any way designated to differentiate which photographs you took versus which photographs he took? A I didn't take any photographs in this I don't know how the

entire investigation.

photographs were designated or differentiated from from the different dates. Q A Q You only did videotapes? I only did video. How much time do you think was taken

on November the 1st out in the backyard with the rough re-creation of the family room? A night. I know we did it at the end of the I just can't tell you how long we were We were out there -- it wasn't like We were I just

out there.

we were just out there a few minutes. out there for a good period of time.

can't tell you any more specifically how long we were out there. Q Prior to this fire, had you ever seen

a re-creation of a room or rooms of a fire scene

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out in the lawn, yard, street, whatever, close to the house? A No. This was the first time I have

ever been able to witness a complete fire scene investigation. And I listened closely and was

very interested for all the reasons as an investigator. But I was interested for my

knowledge how this sort of investigation is done because I didn't know. Q And since then and up to the present

time, have you ever seen any similar re-creations done? A I have seen -- I have seen similar,

but not to this magnitude and not to this importance. Q When the samples were being taken, had

you had any knowledge of what type of equipment was going to be used to analyze the samples, if any? A Q No. Did you have any training in chemistry

or analysis of fire samples to enable you to know whether or not a sample had been properly analyzed?

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A Q

No. So that was something that you left

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totally up to either -- in this case Trooper Kline or in other cases to the fire marshal to do, correct? A Yes. I knew that the samples would be And

going to the Pennsylvania State Police lab.

throughout this investigation, I entrusted or I saw to it that when I didn't know how to do something, that we had someone there that did know how to do it. Trooper Kline. Q Prior to the September 30, 1996 fire And in this case, that was

at the Camiolo residence, had your police department ever sent samples from a fire scene to your knowledge to a lab other than the state police lab? A To my knowledge, no. Mr. Creedon, let

me qualify that.

As a patrolman for ten years,

that is just something I just would not have known. Q I understand. But I'm just asking for

your own personal knowledge. Since September 30, 1996 and up to the

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present time, have you ever known samples from a fire scene to be sent to a lab other than the state police lab?

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A

I don't know.

I know I have I know that since

personally not sent them.

this fire Detective Sergeant Tidwell has written a memo directing us to when appropriate send samples to a different lab. Q memo was? A Q You would have to ask him. Was there any discussion on November Do you know what the purpose of that

the 1st, 1996 while -- you know, either during your initial walk-through or while the samples were being taken or while the re-creation was being done of potential explanations for the gasoline or other substance that had been smelled other than arson? A Q No. Did Trooper Kline at any time indicate

that based on his experience as a fire investigator that he was aware of explanations for whatever substance it was that he was smelling other than arson?

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A Q

He did not.

He did not say that.

Did you as a police officer have a

standard that you went by in determining whether or not something was arson or was that something that you had to leave to a fire investigator to

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tell you? A That is something I had to leave to an

expert or someone with a lot more knowledge than me, yes. Q And the reason I used the term fire

investigator is you have indicated several times to me that you were not trained to be a fire investigator? A Q That's correct. Let me do it this way to be sure: If

a fire investigator goes through a scene and determines that the cause is accidental, could there still be a police arson investigation if the professional has made a determination of accidental? A Q Could you repeat that? From the prior depositions, I

understand that there are three categories of fire, accidental, indeterminate or undetermined,

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and incendiary.

Okay?

And I'm trying to see So let's

now within those three categories. start with accidental.

If the fire is ruled accidental by the professional, can an investigation into arson still occur by the police just on the mere fact

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that you have had a fire that was investigated even if it was ruled accidental, or would you need more? MR. SANTARONE: I guess I am Are you

going to make an objection.

talking about -- because obviously, there would be differences among fire investigators as to the cause and origin. Are you talking about a

specific case where one expert looks at it? MR. CREEDON: I'm trying to

find out what the line is, the scale, as to when you investigate and when you don't, or is there never a time when you don't investigate for a potential arson no matter what the finding is. That is what I am looking

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for. MR. SANTARONE: understand the question? BY MR. CREEDON: Q In other words, no matter what the Do you

fire is classified as by the professional, is there always the possibility the police are going to investigate a potential arson?

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A

There is always the possibility that But we heavily,

the police will investigate.

heavily rely on the opinion of the fire investigator, the fire marshal. To answer your question, if there were some other fact at a fire scene that just jumped out at us or we became aware of, we would pursue an investigation to research that or to look into it. But generally, can a fire that is classified as an accident be investigated -Q A Q A Q Right. -- at some point as an arson? Right. Yes. And under what circumstance would you

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think that would occur? A The one that comes to the top of my

head is that a sample taken at the fire scene later comes back after the fact as having an accelerant in it. Q Okay. And I understand that that

would then lead to a change in the classification? A It could.

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Q

Okay.

Let's just stay with, you know,

it is accidental and there is nothing that comes back. That is what I am trying to look at,

whatever fire it is, everybody agrees it is accidental. Is there any scenario in which there could still be a police investigation of arson? A Additional information would have to If everyone agreed that it was

come to light.

accidental, for all intents and purposes there would be no police investigation. are simply assisting. The police

We're not the -- we're

not the agency that is controlling it. So no, there would be no criminal or police investigation unless something new came

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to light. Q bit. Okay. Okay? And just to explore it a little

Now you have an accidental finding, Could

but you have somebody who is injured. that then be enough to trigger a police

investigation into arson even though the finding of the fire is accidental and nothing else comes to light by an accelerant or anything like that? A That alone in my opinion, in my

experience would not be enough to just trigger a criminal investigation, an injury.

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Q

Let's go a little bit further. Would

Accidental fire and you have a death.

that trigger a criminal investigation without more? A Without more in my experience would

not trigger a criminal investigation. Q So you would have to have some other

fact that tended to call into question the finding of accidental, such as samples taken in which an accelerant is later found? A That could be one of those facts, yes,

that would call an accidental ruling into question.

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MR. CREEDON:

Off the record

(At this time, a discussion was held off the record.) BY MR. CREEDON: Q Okay. Other than maybe like an

informant, a confession, something like that -I'm just trying to look at the physical items that are found at the scene along with knowledge of, you know, certain things. So excluding informants, a confession, different things that would lead you to believe

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that a crime had been committed.

If you're

looking at a fire that originally is ruled as accidental, you either have an injury or a death and now something else comes back to question accidental, that would trigger a criminal investigation, correct? A Yes. That would trigger us to look It doesn't

into the event even more.

necessarily say we would say this is now a criminal investigation. that direction. it some more. It would lead us in

We would reopen it and look at

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Q

Okay.

Is it the fact that the police

don't determine what is a criminal investigation, but the district attorney would have to, in other words, get involved somehow to make it a criminal investigation or is there some area in between that? A No. The district attorney doesn't Our

have to tell us to launch an investigation. experience and the facts that we see them, we could begin the investigation. Q Okay. Let's take it out now of

finding an accelerant.

Let's say, you know, you

have a fire, it is ruled accidental, you have an injury or a death so that you have a serious

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fire or what I have been told is considered to be a serious fire. And you find out -- well,

would you continue to investigate to see if there was a potential reason for arson, such as monetary or other of anyone who stood to gain by that fire? A Q A Probably not. And why wouldn't you? Because we're being told by the people

who know what they are doing that this is an

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accidental fire.

And there are times when we

are told over and over and over again that this is an accidental fire. And I as a police

officer cannot refute that with anything that I am seeing at the scene that would change my opinion -- change my mind about that opinion that I am hearing from the fire investigator. Q Right. Even though you as a police

officer may want to do more because of your training as a police officer? A No, I wouldn't agree with that. I

wouldn't just say, gee, I'm a policeman, I suspect everybody. I am a firm believer of when

the person who knows what they are doing tells me something, unless I can see it, smell it,

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taste it, hear it, I am going to go with their opinion. And I probably -- no, that doesn't

cross my mind, gee, I would really like to carry this on and see a financial motive. stop there. MR. CREEDON: record. (Whereupon, the deposition adjourned at 1:10 p.m.) Off the I would

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C E R T I F I C A T E

I, DEBORAH L. ODELL, Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public, do hereby certify that the foregoing is a true and accurate transcript of the stenographic notes taken by me in the aforementioned matter on Thursday, November 29, 2001.

December 18, 2001 Dated

Deborah L. Odell, CSR

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(The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying shorthand reporter.)

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