UNIVERSITY OF DURBAN-WESTVILLE by forrests

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									UNIVE RS IT Y O F DURB AN -WE S T VIL L E DO CUME NT AT IO N CE NT RE O RAL H IS T O RY PRO JE CT “VO ICE S O F RE S IS T ANCE ” INTER VIEW ER : INTER VIEW EE : DATE : P LAC E : D S HONGW E AS HA MOODLEY 15 AUGUS T 2002 DUR BAN

-------------------------------------------------------- ---DS : Good m orni ng and wel com e. My nam e i s Di m akat so S hongwe. Moodl ey. Today we are i nt ervi ewi ng Asha

Thank you for your t i m e, we appreci at e

i t . S houl d I cal l you Asha, i s i t fi ne? AM: You are wel com e t o cal l m e Asha. DS : Thank you. Asha coul d you pl ease t el l us a l i t t l e bi t about yoursel f? W here and when you were born? AM: Oh, okay, I was born qui t e a l ong t i m e ago, i n 1946. I‟ve j ust t urned 56 -years ol d. I was born in

P i et erm ari t z burg, whi ch i s a fai r si z ed ci t y i n t he Nat al Mi dl ands. DS : That ‟s where you grew up? C ol enso, whi ch i s al so i n t he Nat al Mi dl ands. It ‟s

AM: No, I act ual l y grew up i n a l i t t l e t own cal l ed

now a m ori bund t own. I t hi nk, at one st age i t ex i st ed because of a hydro -el ect ri c P ower S t at i on. It wasn‟t bi g by any st andards. But at l east , i t was al i ve. Today t here‟s not hi ng real l y goi ng for i t . DS : Okay t hat ‟s where you st art ed school i ng? AM: That ‟s where I st art ed school i ng. I di d m y pri m ary school educat i on t here, t hen I went ont o my

secondary school i ng i n P i et erm ari t z burg at an al l gi rl s school . And aft er I had passed m y Mat ri c I

went t o S al i sbury Isl and, t o t he Uni versi t y C ol l ege 1

for Indi ans. t hat ex i st ed

It was one of t he m any bush col l eges for bl ack com m uni t i es and t he

uni versi t y at S al i sbury Isl and was speci fi cal l y for Indi an st udent s. I di d a BA degree and qual i fi ed as a t eacher. career. I had a very short -l i ved career t eachi ng

I t hi nk, m ai nl y, because of m y pol i t i cs.

And t hen I t hi nk, I‟ve had a very vari ed career. I've done several t hi ngs. I worked, for a t i m e, for

t he Bl ack C om m uni t y P rogram m es, as a researcher, and t hen when t he l eadershi p was of t he on Bl ack in

C onsci ousness

Movem ent

put

t ri al

P ret ori a, I went t o P ret ori a for qui t e a num ber of reasons, and assi st ed wi t h seei ng t o t he needs of t he pri soners of t he S AS O/ BP C t ri al s t oget her wi t h Vi no P i l l ay. And t hen when I cam e back -

[ i nt errupt i on] DS : C an we pause?

R EC OR DING INTER R UP TED ON R ES UMP TION DS : W e are back. Asha, woul d you l i ke t o t el l us a l i t t l e bi t about your parent s‟ background and your

grandparent s. AM: Okay, m y parent s. My m ot her was a worker i n t he hom e. I want t o recogni se t he work of wom en at hom e. My fat her al so was a worker. I t hi nk he di d several ki nds of t hi ngs t o bri ng up hi s chi l dren. He worked for a whi l e i n a grocery st ore and t hen he undert ook a whol e l ot of l i t t l e ent erpri ses on hi s

own, l i ke sel l i ng m achi nes, t aki ng up i nsurance, worki ng at a bot t l e st ore. S o he went t hrough My grandparent s,

several j obs t ryi ng t o rai se us.

wel l m y pat ernal grandparent s, l i ved i n Lady sm i t h. I know t hey bot h passed away when we were qui t e 2

young.

As for m y m at ernal grandparent s, I don‟t

have m uch recal l about m y grandfat her, m ai nl y because, I t hi nk, he m ust have di ed by t he t i m e we were l i t t l e chi l dren. I do rem em ber m y grandm ot her t hough, but she t oo di ed when we were qui t e young. And al l I rem em ber about her was t hat she sm oked a l ot , i n a very awesom e way. I m ean I‟m not sure why, but as ki ds, we were al ways fasci nat ed by t he way she sm oked. S he di dn‟t speak m uch Engl i sh,

[ but ] she used t o t el l us t hese st ori es i n Hi ndi . But one di dn‟t real l y have t o underst and m uch Hi ndi t o know what she was t ryi ng t o say but t hat ‟s m y [ grandparent s] . DS : Okay, were t hey born here i n S out h Afri ca? AM: I t hi nk m y dad‟s parent s were, but m y m ot her‟s, I t hi nk, cam e here when t hey were qui t e young. DS : Okay, t he com m uni t y you l i ved i n, i n t he Mi dl ands, what were t hey l i ke, how were t hey? AM: I t hi nk, t he com m uni t i es t here were very sm al l . There was a very sm al l so cal l ed Indi an com m uni t y, Afri can com m uni t y and C ol oured com m uni t y. I

have a sense of us al l bei ng t oget her because we were al l l i vi ng cl ose t o each ot her. In one sense, we were al l part of one com m uni t y, al t hough at t he sam e t i m e, I t hi nk we were aware of cert ai n

di fferences.

My overri di ng sense i s t hat t he whi t e And I

com m uni t y was a com m uni t y apart from us. t hi nk t hi s was for several reasons.

Al t hough as a

chi l d and coul dn‟t qui t e art i cul at e i t , I was qui t e aware t hat t hey were pri vi l eged. They were t he S om et i m es

ones who deci ded how t he t o wn ran.

when you wal ked t hrough t hei r part i cul ar areas t hey woul d set t hei r dogs on you. You weren‟t supposed 3

t o wal k t hrough t hat area as a ki d. And I t hi nk as a chi l d you sort of you know, i n a very random fashi on, cat ch on t o com m on t rends and so you sort of not i ce t hat i f you are not a whi t e person you were t reat ed i n a part i cul ar ki nd of way. And t hat t hi s

whi t e com m uni t y out t here were t he pri vi l eged com m uni t y. DS : Okay, t he school s, t he school you at t ended was i t m i x ed al so? AM: It was. I t hi nk because i t was a sm al l com m uni t y, i t was m i x ed t o a cert ai n ex t ent . I t hi nk t he school I at t ended had a fai r num ber of so -cal l ed C ol oured st udent s, t here were fewer Afri can st udent s because t here was a so -cal l ed Afri can l ocat i on on t he

out ski rt s of C ol enso. Group Areas Act .

I t hi nk we were t oget her,

m i x ed before t he com i ng i nt o ex i st ence of t he I don‟t qui t e have a sense of

when t hat cam e i nt o effect , but at som e st age we al l l i ved i n t he l i t t l e t own of C ol enso and t hen when t he Group Areas cam e i nt o effect al l t he

com m uni t i es, t i ny t hough t hey were, were sort of shi ft ed out of t he t own i t sel f. were put in one part i cul ar S o t hat t he Indi ans area, t he so -cal l ed

C ol oured com m uni t y, and I al ways rem em ber t hi s. I have t hi s pi ct ure of a row of about t en houses, whi ch were t here for t he C ol oured com m uni t y, and t hen a furt her di st ance away was t he Afri can

l ocat i on.

S o I have a very cl ear pi ct ure of m y

chi l dhood t hat at one st age, you know, of our l i ves al l t he com m uni t i es coul d get t oget her i n t he cen t re of t own. And t hen, I t hi nk, around t he t i m e when I was i n st andard si x t he Group Areas cam e i nt o ex i st ence. 4

DS :

Okay, i f I m ay ask t he Group Areas Act , di d i t affect you personal l y, as an i ndi vi dual ?

AM: I t hi nk, I was a chi l d t hen, and di dn‟t real l y appreci at e what i t m eant . I do know i t m eant t hat

before t he houses were act ual l y est abl i shed, t he school was bui l t out of t he t own, so we had t o wal k from t he t own t o t he school and t hat was about a 40 m i nut e wal k bot h in t he m orni ng and in t he

aft erno on.

S o I do have a sense of t hat ki nd of But ya, you di d, I t hi nk, at t he

t hi ng happeni ng.

back of your m i nd, you sort of quest i oned why you had t o do t hat . And why [ som e] peopl e were st i l l i n t he cent re of t own where it was m uch m ore conveni ent . I can‟t say t hat sort of pol i t i ci sed m e,

i t j ust creat ed a ki nd of awareness of i nequal i t y. DS : Okay, so were you t al ki ng about pri m ary school ?

AM: Ya. DS : Okay, i n hi gh school , how was i t ?

AM: In hi gh school i t was very di fferent , I was i n a bi gger ci t y, P i e t erm ari t z burg. And I suppose, i n a sense, i t was far m ore conveni ent . There was no quest i on of havi ng t o wal k great di st ances. onl y t hi ng t hat I di d not i ce was t hat at The hi gh

school , m ost of our t eachers were whi t e wom en. There were very few Indi an t eachers. It was an al l gi rl s‟ school . S o I don‟t t hi nk t here was m uch opport uni t y for pol i t i cal debat e at our school , And so

because our pri nci pal was a W hi t e person.

were m ost of t he t eachers. S o I don‟t t hi nk t hey woul d have al l owed t hose ki nd of cri t i cal

di scussi ons t o t ake pl ace. I t hi nk I was m ore aware, t here, of t he di fferences i n rel i gi on. of i m port ance And t he ki nd

peopl e at t ached t o com i ng from 5

di fferent rel i gi ons. And I cert ai nl y di scovered t hat i f you bel onged t o t he church, whet her C at hol i c or Angl i can, t hen i n som e way t o you were supposed t o be superi or t hose who were st i l l Hi ndus and,

you know, st i cki ng t o your t radi t i onal rel i gi on. Not t hat I was part i cul arl y rel i gi ous, anyway. DS : Okay, you were not rel i gi ous person?

AM: No, I used t o go t em pl e wi t h m y aunt and I t hi nk I j ust enj oyed bei ng wi t h peopl e and not so m uch i nt erest ed i n ri t ual , but I t hi nk t hat ‟s t he ki nd of sense of com m uni t y. But i f I have t o go and pray every S unday I don‟t t hi nk I woul d have done t hat i f I were com pel l ed t o I don‟t t hi nk I woul d have done it. DS : Okay, sorry, you‟ve got your si st ers and brot hers?

AM: Yes I do. DS : How m any were t hey?

AM: I, have four si st ers and one brot her. DS : Are you t he el dest ?

AM: I am t he el dest . DS : Oh, okay. They al so w ent t o school wi t h you, where you school ed, basi cal l y? AM: Ya. DS : Okay, so what m ade you go t o Mari t z burg t hen? There was a

AM: Oh, okay, t here i s a si m pl e i nci dent .

t eacher, I t hi nk, who act ual l y m ade m e deci de t o go t o P i et erm ari t z burg. He was qui t e horri bl e and I don‟t know what happened, but I rem em ber hi m t el l i ng m e t hat when I went t o Ladysm i t h, because he event ual l y went back t o Ladysm i t h, he was goi ng t o get m e. And al so I t hi nk Ladysm i t h was very

t radi t i onal . W e had had several t eachers com i ng over from Ladysm i t h t o t each us, m ai nl y m al e 6

t eachers. And I t hi nk t owards st andard fi ve and si x I was very aware of how, I don‟t know how t o put i t but I personal l y found t hem qui t e horri bl e, t he way t hey beat up t he gi rl s som et i m es. And sort of, you know, woul d sort of hi t you and t hen you woul d

sort of dance your way back t o prot ect yoursel f. And I t hought i t was very undi gni fi ed and t he t hought of goi ng t o spend t he rest of your school i ng years i n Ladysm i t h where you woul d fi nd t hese guys, j ust di dn‟ t appeal t o m e. And ya, I want ed t o get away. DS : AM: Ya. DS : Aft er t hat you went t o S al i sbury Hi gh. W oul d you Okay, so you m at ri cul at ed at Mari t z burg?

l i ke t o t el l us about l i fe i n t hat col l ege at S al i sbury? AM: Ya, S al i sbury Isl and was qui t e a di scovery. I had

al ways had t he i l l usi on t hat at uni versi t y you were a free i ndi vi dual and, you know, i t was a pl ace where you coul d real l y fi nd yoursel f. But I di scovered

t hat at uni versi t y you were sort of subj ect t o ot her ki nds of oppressi on. woul dn‟t have been Al t hough, at t hat t i m e, I abl e to art i cul at e it as

oppressi on.

But I i ni t i al l y enrol l ed for a sci ence

degree and I al ways rem em ber t hi s - I‟ve al ways had probl em s wi t h m en, som ewhere around. I enrol l ed

for chem i st ry and duri ng a pract i cal sessi on t here was t hi s short t echni ci an, who cam e t o hel p m e, because we were doi ng t i t rat i ons, and I t urned a t ap on and t he sol ut i on j ust fl owed t hrough, and he cam e t o hel p m e. And t hen he sai d t o m e, "You‟re a real short y, aren‟t you? " And I l ooked back at hi m and he was j ust as short as m ysel f, so I sai d t o hi m , "You're not very t al l yoursel f." And he suddenl y 7

l ost hi s t em per and t ook off wi t h m e, and aft er t hat whenever I at t ended chem i st ry pract i cal s he was And, I

qui t e m ean and nast y and hardl y hel pful .

t hi nk, t hat m ade m e deci de t hat I wasn‟t goi ng t o m ake i t i n sci ence and I swi t ched over t o an art s degree. DS : J ust l i ke t hat ? som et hi ng, but I j ust di dn‟t t hi nk I woul d m ake i t i n chem i st ry. DS : Okay, so t he soci al si t uat i on, l et us t al k about t hat . I‟ve i nt ervi ewed a num ber of peopl e, and si nce S al i sbury Isl and was basi cal l y for Indi ans, correct m e i f I'm not ri ght here. How di d you vi ew i t ? AM: I t hi nk, at t hat t i m e, i t was a pl ace where you coul d get a degree, especi al l y if you cam e from a background where t here wasn‟t m uch m oney, and I suppose i n a sense you fel t you had no ot her choi ce. S houl d I carry on? DS : Yes. dream s. You sort of say I‟l l t ake m y l i fe each st ep, as i t com es. S o for m e i t was a pl ace where I

AM: J ust l i ke t hat , but ya, m aybe I was ul t ra sensi t i ve or

AM: Okay, and I t hi nk, as a young person you have

woul d get m y degree and work m y way from t here. I was aware t hat one di dn‟t have m uch choi ce as t o where one coul d go. But t hat was t he choi ce I m ade t hen. DS : S o who were your col l eagues?

AM: In m y fi rst year, I had a num ber of - I t hi nk m y col l eagues were very di fferent from t he peopl e wi t h whom I fi nal l y ended m y col l ege years. There were qui t e a num ber of st udent s from t he t hen Transvaal . P eopl e l i ke Tal i b Mukadam , an d I t hi nk t hey pl ayed 8

qui t e an i m port ant part i n m y l i fe because for t he fi rst t i m e we st art ed engagi ng i n real pol i t i cal di scussi ons and debat es and I don‟t t hi nk we

engaged i n m uch pol i t i cal act i vi t y but at l east t hose debat es t ook pl ace. And t hey were very, very

i m port ant , I t hi nk, i n real l y shapi ng m y pol i t i cal consci ousness, t hen. Because, I t hi nk, I basi cal l y

cam e t o uni versi t y wi t h a very chaot i c i dea of t he pol i t i cs, not a very cl ear i dea of what was

happeni ng. I m ean, I di d know t hat W hi t es were i n power and t hat t he rest of us di dn‟t hol d m uch of i t . But get t i ng a cl earer m ore det ai l ed pi ct ure cam e from t hese di scussi ons. DS : Okay can I say t hat ‟s when you st art ed t o be aware of raci al oppressi on? AM: Not real l y, I t hi nk I was aware of t hat duri ng m y hi gh school years, but t here wasn‟t m uch t aki ng pl ace t o gi ve t hat awareness m ore form and shape. I t hi nk, at hi gh school t here were so m any ot her t hi ngs t aki ng pl ace, t here wasn‟t m uch space for t hat ki nd of t hi ng. There were ot her t hi ngs t hat

t ook pl ace duri ng hi gh school , for ex am pl e t here was t he P ot at o Boycot t , t here was an organi sat i on known as AP DUS A t hat cam e and hel d a bi g m eet i ng. And we sort of at t ended as st udent s and

we rai sed our fi st s and, you know, shout ed sl ogans l i ke, I can‟t even rem em ber what t hose sl ogans were. But I‟m not real l y sure t hat we underst ood I‟m not goi ng t o everyt hi ng t hat was bei ng sai d. pret end about t hat . DS : Okay so aft er - you com pl et ed your degree i n t hree years t i m e? AM: No, m uch l onger. 9

DS :

Much l onger , and t hen aft er com pl et i ng i t you were qual i fi ed as?

AM: As a t eacher, a hi gh school t eacher. DS : Okay.

AM: However, m y fi rst school was not a hi gh school . I ended up t eachi ng at a l i t t l e pri m ary school , at a pl ace cal l ed Mal agaz i . And Mal agaz i i s a very poor area, and i t m eant t ravel l i ng out qui t e a bi t . But I

t hi nk I enj oyed t hat very m uch because I was i n t ouch wi t h a very poor com m uni t y and I fel t t hat m y ski l l s were needed, and t hat I di d m ake a di fference, at l east i n t he l i fe of som e of t he chi l dre n. I t hi nk som e of t hem had been passed over. There were several st udent s who coul dn‟t read and wri t e

al t hough t hey were i n st andard one [ Grade Three] . And I t hi nk, t hat was a real chal l enge t o m y

t eachi ng ski l l s, so t hat year I found very useful . And t hen, i n t he fol l owi ng year I was, or have I got i t t he ot her way round? I went t o Tagore Hi gh,

where i n t he m i ddl e of t hi s school rebel l i on -I t hi nk at t hat t i m e, t he pri nci pal had got t en a st udent pregnant . And I went t here i n t he m i ddl e of vari ous prot est s, at a t i m e when t here were qui t e a num ber of prot est s, bot h by t he st udent s and t he com m uni t y, t aki ng pl ace agai nst hi m . DS : Okay, what year was t hat ? AM: Gosh, t hat ‟s qui t e som e t i m e ago. It woul d have been i n t he l at e si x t i es, earl y sevent i es. DS : C an you st i l l rem em ber when you com pl et ed Mat ri c, t he year? AM: Ya, I t hi nk i n 1964. DS : And when you com pl et ed your degree?

10

AM: It woul d have been i n what 1969, so i t woul d be i n 1970/ 1. DS : S o i f I m ay ask, i m m edi at el y aft er your com pl et ed your Mat ri c, you went st rai ght t o t he uni versi t y? AM: Ya. DS : Okay. about ? AM: Ya, I di dn‟t real i se, as a new t eacher t hat even t he t eachers were not t al ki ng t o t he pri nci pal . And I t hi nk, I basi cal l y went about doi ng m y t eachi ng, but I event ual l y di d have t o. I ended up havi ng t o m ake a deci si on because I rem em ber t hi s i nci dent qui t e cl earl y. I was i n t he st aff com m on room doi ng som e m arki ng and t he pri nci pal , what 's hi s nam e? because he‟d done t hi s i n qui t e a num ber of s chool s, cam e i nt o t he com m on room and t here was anot her C om i ng back t o t he t hat school you t al ked

t eacher t here, and I t hi nk t here was an al t ercat i on bet ween t hem . I can‟t rem em ber what t hey quarrel ed about , but l at er he cam e and want ed m e t o si gn a st at em ent t o t he effect t hat she‟d been i nsubordi nat e and he want ed t o get t o her di sm i ssed and want ed m e t o be part y t o hi s m ove. And I sai d I wasn‟t And I goi ng t o because I wasn‟t real l y i nvol ved.

not i ced t hat aft er t hat i nci dent , every l esson of m i ne was scrut i ni sed by hi m . t i m e. He woul d com e i n al l t he

And t hen one day he cam e t o t he cl assroom t he st udent s

where I t aught Engl i sh and, I t hi nk,

t here had done a whol e l ot of poet ry and wri t i ngs. I t hi nk I t aught i n a way t o creat e pol i t i cal awareness i n t he st udent s. At t hat m om ent , at t hat part i cul ar

m om ent , i n m y l i fe I t hi nk I was al ready a m em ber of S AS O, so whet her you were a t eacher or a

doct or or what ever, I know one of our m i ssi ons was 11

t o m ake peopl e pol i t i cal l y aware.

And I t hi nk,

t eachi ng provi ded an opport uni t y where you t ri ed t o m ake st udent s pol i t i cal l y aware and I t ri ed t o do t hat t hrough encouragi ng st udent s t o wri t e about t hei r ex peri ences, and t o wri t e i n al l ki nds and form s, poet ry st rai ght prose, what ever. And one of t he proj ect s was a weekl y newsl et t er. And I t hi nk

part of t he process al so i nvol ved cri t i qui ng not onl y, you know, t he out si de envi ronm ent but al so l ooki ng at your school , l ooki ng at your t eachers, what t hey sai d and encouragi ng t hem t o act ual l y di al ogue wi t h t hei r t eachers. To be abl e t o say t o t he t eacher, “Look, I hear what you say but I don‟t qui t e agree,” or you know t o, I t hought at t hat t i m e, we t hought t hat t he process of quest i oni ng began wherever you were si t uat ed. In any event , t he pri nci pal not i ced al l t hese wri t i ngs, and one Fri day I cam e t o school t o fi nd Mr Zwi egel aar, who was t he C hi ef Inspect or of Educat i on I t hi nk, i n Nat al at t hat t i m e and I underwent i nt errogat i on for about t wo hours. And basi cal l y, he sai d t hat I was i nt roduci ng i nsurrect i on at t he school and t hat I woul d get fi red and I sa i d t hat I was an Engl i sh t eacher and part of Engl i sh was enabl i ng st udent s t o be cri t i cal , t hat I and

fel t t hat I was doi ng m y j ob, as a i n t he fol l owi ng year, i n

t eacher. And wel l , I t hought I woul d be fi red, but I wasn‟t , ex cept t hat

J anuary, on t he fi rst day when I cam e t o school , I was t ol d t hat I woul d have t o go t o anot her pri m ary school . S o I was sent from a hi gh school t o a

pri m ary school . DS : Okay, so how was l i fe t hen, i n t hat pri m ary school ?

12

AM: I di dn‟t t eacher.

m i nd

it

because I t hi nk I‟m

a good

And t eachi ng di d bri ng out m y creat i vi t y

and I l i ke chi l dren of al l ages and I t ry t o rel at e t o t hem . I don‟t t hi nk I succeed al l t he t i m e, but som et i m es, I do. And I t hi nk t eachi ng i s one area

where you can see whet her you are m aki ng an i m pact , al m ost i m m edi at el y. I m ean you can see i t i n what t he st udent s do, and how t hey do t hi ngs. S o I enj oy t eachi ng. DS : How l ong were you t eachi ng? And t hen som et hi ng AM: I‟d say about t hree years.

happened i n m y personal l i fe, and I had t o resi gn. But I t hi nk a l arge part of i t , t he reason why I di dn‟t get t he ki nd of support t hat I requi red from t he pri nci pal and t he t eachers had qui t e a bi t do wi t h m y pol i t i cs. Because when I event ual l y ret urned, and went t o t he depart m ent t o get back m y t eachi ng j ob, I wasn‟t abl e t o. And one of t he reasons was

m y pol i t i cal background. DS : W hat di d you do t hen t hereaft er?

AM: Thereaft er, I got a part -t i m e j ob wi t h t he Bl ack C om m uni t y P rogram m es, assi st i ng i n t hei r research proj ect . At t hat several t i m e, t he BC P was pro duci ng One of t hem was Bl ack

publ i cat i ons.

R evi ew, so part of m y j ob was t o get newspaper cut t i ngs, fi l e t hem i nt o part i cul ar subj ect

cat egori es, and

i sol at e t hem es, whi ch woul d be And t hen l at er I

wri t t en up for Bl ack R evi ew.

act ual l y di d wri t i ng because t he person who was doi ng t he act ual wri t i ng was banned. S o I t ook over her posi t i on. DS : Okay. W as she banned because of her pol i t i cal i nvol vem ent ? 13

AM: S he was, ya. DS : Okay so were you ever bei ng harassed or som et hi ng by t he S ecuri t y P ol i ce? AM: I t hi nk we al l were, i n t he sense t hat t he pol i ce were al ways around and, you know, you‟d suddenl y l ook around, and t here t hey were. But at t hat t i m e, I don‟t t hi nk I was ever sort of arrest ed or anyt hi ng, at t hat part i cul ar st age. That cam e m uch l at er. DS : Okay what year are we t al ki ng about ? AM: I t hi nk we're probabl y t hi nki ng about when‟s i t now 1972. DS : 1972. AM: I‟m t ryi ng t o t hi nk, when di d t he Frel i m o R al l y t ake pl ace? DS : 1974 Look I know t here was a l ot happeni ng I‟ve real l y becom e ol d now. [ l aughs] There were l ot s of st udent m eet i ngs t here I real l y have t o probabl y si t down and wri t e t hi ngs out i n ki nd of chronol ogi cal sequence. But t here were al l t hese

AM: 1974, ya.

upri si ngs i n t he vari ous cam puses. And I know t hat t here were st udent l eaders who cam e across from t he Transvaal , t he East ern C ape and t here were l ot s of m eet i ngs i n, was i t t he Nat al Tam i l Vedi c Hal l ? Those were very ex ci t i ng t i m es, and t hen as

m em bers of t he Bl ack C onsci ousness Movem ent t here were t hi ngs we prot est ed aga i nst . For ex am pl e, t he act i vi t i es of t he Nat al Indi an C ongress. They

had several m eet i ngs, and we basi cal l y chal l enged t hem for confi ni ng t hei r concerns t o t he Indi an com m uni t y onl y, because I t hi nk we want ed t o open up t o t he rest of t he broader bl ack com m uni t y. DS : Okay can we pause. 14

R EC OR DING INTER R UP TED ON R ES UMP TION DS : Okay we are back. m em ber of S AS O. Asha, you sai d you were a If I m ay ask, why was it

est abl i shed? AM: S AS O, okay I t hi nk S AS O was est abl i shed m ai nl y because bl ack st udent s on cam pus es had, had

enough of bei ng represent ed by whi t e st udent s. Basi cal l y, t hey found t hat whi t e st udent s, t hrough t he whi t e st udent body, t he Nat i onal Uni on of S out h Afri can S t udent s, di dn‟t real l y represent t he

aspi rat i ons and hopes and fears of bl ack st udent s. And, I t hi nk, at t he l evel of t he uni versi t i es, t hat was one reason why t he S out h Afri can S t udent s Organi z at i on [ S AS O] was form ed. But on a broader l evel , I t hi nk, st udent s who were m em bers of t he broader bl ack com m uni t y real i z ed t hat t here was a pol i t i cal l ul l wi t hi n i n t he bl ack com m uni t y. t hat t here was a great fear, on t he part And of

com m uni t i es, t o engage i n pol i t i cal di scussi ons and act i on. And i n a sense, t hat was onl y nat ural ,

because t he ot her l i berat i on m ovem ent s, t he P an Afri can C ongress and t he Afri can Nat i onal C ongress had been banned and t he Movem ent t hat cam e aft er t hem , t he Uni t y Movem ent [ AP DUS A] , I t hi nk m ost of t he m em bers, at t hat t i m e, i n t he earl y sevent i es, had been put on t ri al , and j ust been sent enced t o pri son. And I recol l ect t hat we di d go to P i et erm ari t z burg t o at t end part of t he t ri al so t hat ‟s m y sense of t hi ngs, t hen. I di d m ent i on t hat t here

was a great fear on t he part of peopl e t o ex press t hem sel ves pol i t i cal l y. And we had som e very

cl ear -t hi nki ng peopl e t hen l i ke S t eve Bi ko, Harry 15

Nengwekul u, Barney P i t i ana, S t ri ni Moodl ey, R ubi n P hi l l i p, Vuyi Tshabal al a, Mam phel a R am phel a, who sort of anal ysed t he si t uat i on of bl ack peopl e. And I t hi nk, one of t he t hi ngs t hey i dent i fi ed was t he ki nd of psychol ogi cal fear t hat b l ack peopl e had. And I t hi nk, t here was al so anal yses of t he previ ous l i berat i on m ovem ent s, t hat whi l e we spoke about physi cal l i berat i on we hadn‟t real l y addressed t he quest i on of psychol ogi cal l i berat i on. one t he t he assert i ons of t he Bl ack as a And I t hi nk, C onsci ousness whol e, wasn‟t

Movem ent was t hat perhaps one of t he reasons why l i berat i on m ovem ent , progressi ng was because our m i nds real l y weren‟t free. That perhaps our aspi rat i ons, t he ki nds of

pol i t i cal sol ut i ons t hat were vi sual i sed were al ways sort of st eeped i n a ki nd of cont ex t defi ned by whi t e peopl e. That psychol ogi cal l y we had i m bi bed a l ot And I t hi nk t he i dea was t o

of west ern val ues.

deconst ruct our own condi t i oni ng t o, t o l ook at oursel ves as hum an bei ngs. To l ook at our past ,

l ook at our root s, our own com m uni t i es and l ook at t he val ues t hat had gui ded t he com m uni t i es t o see what we coul d ex t ract from t hat , ex t ract what was val uabl e. And al so t o, t o val ue oursel ves as bl ack

hum an bei ngs who coul d al so t hi nk creat i vel y. Because one of t he t hi ngs t hat st ruck us was t hat whi t e peopl e had i nt ervened at cert ai n st eps i n t he l i berat i on Movem ent and som et i m es i t seem ed t hat t he bl ack com m uni t y was t aki ng i t s l ead from t he ki nds of t hi ngs ex pressed by whi t e peopl e. I m ean we can m ent i on for ex am pl e, t he S out h Afri can C om m uni st P art y, whi ch was m ade up of qui t e a num ber of whi t e peopl e, and t o us, i t seem ed t hat 16

som ewhere al ong t he way t hey had hi j acked t he nat i onal l i berat i on st ruggl e of t he bl ack peopl e. Those were som e of t he i deas t hat we deal t wi t h, but by and l arge, we want ed a ki nd of st ruggl e t hat woul d be real l y i ni t i at ed by bl ack peopl e and be t he creat i on of bl ack peopl e. And when i t cam e t o

pol i t i cal sol ut i ons we want ed pol i t i cal sol ut i ons whi ch were t hose as art i cul at ed by bl ack peopl e because we fel t t hat bl ack peopl e were best sui t ed t o defi ne what ki nd of pol i t i cal si t uat i on t hey needed. Now t hat ‟s l ooki ng at i t , at t he broader l evel , but at t he st udent l evel , one of t he fi rst st eps t o t ake I t hi nk at t hat m om ent was t o ex t r i cat e t he bl ack st udent body from t hi s whi t e st udent body and I t hi nk t hat ‟s why S AS O cam e i nt o bei ng. DS : Okay we t al ked about earl y 1970‟s/ 72, so now I

j ust want you t o t el l m e, you sai d you were i nvol ved as a researcher wi t h t he Bl ack C om m uni t y

P rogram m es. S o how l ong di d you work t here? AM: I was on a part -t i m e basi s. I woul d say i t was 1972/ 3, even i nt o 1974. Frel i m o R al l y and And t hen t here was t he seem ed to change

l i fe

dram at i cal l y aft er t hat . DS : W oul d you l i ke t o t al k about t he Frel i m o R al l y, why i t t ook pl ace? AM: I t hi nk qui t e a l ot was happeni ng on t he Afri can C ont i nent at t hat t i m e, qui t e a num ber of Afri can S t at es wi t h whose st ruggl es we i dent i fi ed were m aki ng a bi d for freedom . And t he Frel i m o R al l y

was seen as i m port ant because we saw t hat as t he com i ng i nt o bei ng of t he Frel i m o Governm ent i n t he new st at e of Moz am bi que, as t he frui t i on of t he st ruggl es of t he Moz am bi can P eopl e. And for us, 17

t hat was real l y great encouragem ent . It was what we hoped t o sort of see i n S out h Afri ca. And I t hi nk

t he i dea of hol di ng t he Frel i m o R al l y was t o encourage S out h Afri can peopl e t o al so go on wi t h t he st ruggl e and t o al so pl edge our sol i dari t y wi t h

t he peopl e of Moz am bi que. DS : W hat happened duri ng t hat peri od, I m ean i n your l i fe? AM: You m ean aft er t he ral l y, duri ng t he ral l y? W el l I

j ust rem em ber t hat i t was a t i m e when m ost of t he l eadershi p of t he [ S AS O/ BP C ] Movem ent was

arrest ed and aft er t hat t he pol i ce were real l y l ooki ng for peopl e, and i t was a t i m e when several of us were arrest ed qui t e a num ber of t i m es. J ust pi cked up by t he securi t y pol i ce and i nt errogat ed about t hi ngs and t reat ed qui t e brut al l y. I m ean t hese guys woul d pi ck you up and, I rem em ber once, wal ki ng down Grey S t reet and I t urned around and t here were t hese t wo securi t y cops,. t wo very bi g guys. I‟ve forgot t en t hei r nam es. But t hey j ust sort of

haul ed m e off t he st reet and when I prot est ed i n t he car I rem em ber t hi s guy gi vi ng m e such a hard shot [ sl ap] . S orry, Du Toi t was hi s nam e, ya, he was a I was act ual l y daz ed. I

hel l of a bi g, burl y gu y.

t hi nk I onl y sort of cam e out of i t once we arri ved i n Fi sher S t reet . And I j ust had on j eans and a very short t op and t hese guys passed t he m ost t erri bl e i nsul t i ng rem arks. You real l y fel t qui t e degraded, ex posed and vul nerabl e. And I suppose deep i nsi de you t here was al so a ki nd of anger because you coul dn‟t do m uch about i t . You want ed t o do som et hi ng about i t but you real l y coul dn‟t do m uch about i t . But at t hat t i m e, ya, t here was qui t e a l ot 18

of pol i ce harassm ent and I t hi nk qui t e a num ber of us had t o l i e qui t e l ow. Al so m eant get t i ng ri d of a l ot of books, scouri ng our room s get t i ng ri d of al l t he S AS O publ i cat i ons, what ever BC P ‟s m at eri al you had. Because t hey were al so l ooki ng for t hat

and we di d have a l ot of val uabl e readi ng m at eri al . S o t hi s, i n a sense, sounds bi t odd now, I m ean i t s seem s t o have happened - i t has happened such a l ong t i m e ago, but i t was qui t e an i nt ense t i m e. You're sort of l i vi ng on edge. You t hi nk about i t

now, you I suppose, you say wel l I coul d have done t hi s, I coul d have done t hat . But at t hat t i m e, i t was qui t e di fferent . DS : Okay when was t hi s, can you st i l l rem em ber t he year? AM: W el l i t happened, when di d we have t hat ral l y? S ept em ber 1974, and t he guys were arrest ed short l y aft er t hat . And t hen we went t o P ret ori a, t hat woul d have been i n earl y 1975, ya. I rem em ber Vi no was i t , yes, Gwen (Mokoape) and I t ravel l i ng by t rai n. Gwen had j ust had her second chi l d, Mangi . Mangi was about a week ol d. And we t ook t hi s l ong t ri p t o P ret ori a because t he guys were m aki ng t hei r fi rst appearance. I t hi nk i t was qui t e a heavy t ri p

part i cul arl y for Gwen because t hi s baby was j ust a week ol d, and goi ng t o P ret ori a was qui t e t erri bl e t oo. Goi ng t o court was horri bl e. There were al l t hese pol i ce on guard. W e weren‟t sure whet her we were goi ng t o see t he chaps at al l . And t here was a huge crowd, and when we m et wi t h fam i l i es of t he ot her det ai nees, t here were t hose dogs and we had t o push t hrough wi t h t he baby and Gwen. And t here were hordes of peopl e because t here had been qui t e 19

a bi t of publ i ci t y around t he det ent i on of wel l , t he S AS O t ri al i st s t he S AS O/ BP C t ri al i st s, as t hey were known. It was qui t e rough because I don‟t t hi nk we were very used t o P ret ori a. W e event ual l y becam e qui t e fond of P ret ori a, i n an odd way. But at t hat

t i m e, i t was a t ot al l y new ci t y for us, and i t was a very, very m i l i t ary t own. There was a heavy - you coul d see l ot s of sol di ers and pol i cem en, t hat ‟s one t hi ng t hat st ruck you about P ret ori a t hen. t hese Al sat i ans t hat accom pani ed And al l So

t hem .

defi ni t el y, t here was a l ot of host i l i t y but event ual l y we di d t he see guys com i ng i n, al l l ooki ng qui t e wel l , t hey l ooked qui t e ski nny and l ean. But t hey

were, shocki ngl y i n t he m ost am az i ngl y hi gh spi ri t s, and I t hi nk t hat boost ed our m oral e because I t hi nk t he peri od pri or t o t hat had been one of great anx i et y and st ress. I t hi nk, part i cul arl y, for t he fam i l i es because i t was di ffi cul t t o get i nform at i on. But t he onl y source of i nform at i on was S hun C het t y who was t he l awyer represent i ng, who had been asked by t he fam i l i es t o represent t hem t o fi nd out what was goi ng on. But because t hey were det ai ned under t he Terrori sm Act whi ch, I t hi nk, was one of t he m ost , one of t he harshest act s we‟ve ever had i n t hi s count ry. It was very di ffi cul t t o get an i dea of what was happeni ng. ex peri ences of peopl e But I t hi nk, based on t he who had been det ai ned

before, we were pret t y sure t hat t hey had been subj ect ed t o al l ki nds of harshness and t ort ure et cet era. And I t hi n k, l at er on t hose fears were borne out by what t he guys t ol d us. DS : C an you st i l l rem em ber t he nam es of t hose peopl e who were t ri ed? 20

AM: Okay t here was S at hs C ooper, t here was Aubrey Mokoape, t here was Nkwenkwe Nkom o, t here was Zi t hul el e C i ndi , R ubi n Hare who was t he youngest t ri al i st , I t hi nk. was he? But W hi ch i n effect , I t hi nk, how ol d

what i t m eant was t hat as one of t he

persons charged he woul d have been fourt een when he st art ed. I t hi nk one of t he t hi ngs (charges) was

conspi racy, so i t woul d have m eant t hat he woul d have been 14 -years ol d when he part i ci pat ed i n a conspi racy, al l eged by t he st at e. And I t hi nk t hat

was one of t he reasons why he was event ual l y di scharged because t he charges of t he st at e were shown t o be absol ut el y ri di cul ous. W ho el se was

t here? Oh Mosi ua Lekot a, who act ual l y got m arri ed i n t he course of t he t ri al . And I was hi s wi t ness, at t he weddi ng, whi ch t ook pl ace i n P ret ori a P ri son. And gosh, I‟m t erri bl e, Li ngum Moodl ey who was event ual l y di scharged. I t hi nk I got m ost of t he nam es, but I t hi nk I‟ve l eft out som e. DS : No i t ‟s fi ne. S o your parent s by t hi s t i m e, were t hey support i ng you? AM: Oh no, no, no, m y parent s were t ypi cal parent s. I don‟t t hi nk t hey want ed m e t o be i nvol ved. Mai nl y because t hey were scared about what woul d happen. And I t hi nk parent s, of t hat t i m e, di dn‟t support your act i vi t i es preci sel y because of t hei r fears for you. It wasn‟t anyt hi ng el se, t hey j ust di dn‟t want

you t o get i nvol ved. DS : Okay can we pause?

AM: Ya, sure. R EC OR DING INTER R UP T ED END OF TAP E R ES UMP TION ON S IDE B

21

DS :

W e are back.

Asha, I bel i eve you were i n t he

t heat re. W oul d you l i ke t o t el l us about t hat ? AM: Ya I was. I do t hi nk I was a t erri bl e act or. But anyway, I don‟t t hi nk one needed t o be part i cul arl y st ar m at eri al t o part i ci pat e i n t hese product i ons. At uni versi t y, I di d say t hat t he st udent s who pl ayed an i m port ant rol e i n m y l i fe i n m y fi rst year were peopl e from t he Transvaal . But i n m y second year, I m et peopl e who act ual l y cam e from Durban. P eopl e l i ke S t ri ni M oodl ey, Ben Davi d, Denni s P at her, l at er on Ki ruba P i l l ay and S am Moodl ey. And I t hi nk I

got i nvol ved i n uni versi t y t heat re because of m y rel at i onshi ps wi t h t hese peopl e. General l y, t he st udent body, I t hi nk, was qui t e apat het i c and di dn‟t want t o get i nvol ved i n any ki nd of st udent pol i t i cs. And we t hought t hat one way t o engage t hem woul d be som et hi ng t hat woul d be st udent fri endl y l i ke, you know, a ki nd of t heat ri cal product i on. And I

t hi nk i t was m ai nl y peopl e l i ke S t ri ni , Denni s, Kogs P i l l ay and S am and Ki ruba who got t oget her, and devi sed a revi ew cal l ed "Bl ack on W hi t e" or fi rst l y we cal l ed i t "The C l an" because t hey cat egori sed t hem sel ves as The C l an. And we had a whol e l ot of sket ches produced, whi ch general l y sat i ri z ed l i fe on S al i sbury Isl and. It sat i ri sed t he aut hori t i es, al so t he at t i t ude of t he st udent s. st i m ul at e debat e et cet era. And t he i dea was t o But t hey went down

real l y wel l because t hey were qui t e funny on t he one hand, qui t e pol i t i cal i n cont ent , but very funny. S o m uch so, t hat peopl e sai d t hat we shoul d carry on produci ng t hem . And usual l y duri ng R epubl i c Day, I t hi nk t he aut hori t i es t ri ed t o hol d som e ki nd of offi ci al cerem ony, but we never at t ended t hat . The 22

C l an basi cal l y used t o have som e ki nd of event usual l y a product i on and st udent s woul d at t end. But we woul d hol d t hese out si de t he st udent hal l . There was st i l l a l ot of fear on t he part of st udent s because I rem em ber, at one st age, we had a ki nd of m ock R epubl i c Day cerem ony where we had a di rt y hanky on a broom and we sai d t hi s was t he R epubl i can Fl ag. And t here we were, i n t he cent re ,and t he rest of t he st udent body was around us, i n a ci rcl e. But what was st ri ki ng, was t he ki nd of di st ance bet ween us and t hem . To a l arge ex t ent i t refl ect ed t he ki nd of fear t hat peopl e had t o engage i n pol i t i cs, at t hat t i m e. In any event , l i ke I sai d, we were encouraged t o t ake t hat out of t he uni versi t y, so we di d. And I t hi nk for - was i t about t hree years, we regul arl y produced a revi ew cal l ed "Bl ack on W hi t e", i n whi ch we s at i ri z ed t he broader S out h Afri can But I

si t uat i on, and t hose were ex t rem el y popul ar.

t hi nk, at t hat t i m e t oo, peopl e were st art i ng t o say t hi ngs t hrough t heat re. Ex pl ori ng com m uni t i es and t hei r fears because t here was al so anot her

product i on

by R onny Govender, cal l ed "Tal ki ng

Turkey" whi ch I t hi nk al so at t em pt ed, but I t hi nk, wi t hi n t he Indi an com m uni t y t o l ook at cert ai n t hi ngs. Event ual l y, wel l at t hat t i m e, we produced

"Bl ack on W hi t e" under t he nam e of The C l an and t he person who was our di rect or w as a very

eccent ri c chap cal l ed S ubash Maharaj . He i s now i n C anada, I t hi nk. But "Bl ack on W hi t e" I t hi nk di d

ex t rem el y wel l i n prom ot i ng a ki nd of awareness because we went t o m ost of t he cam puses. And t hen t hat was al so a t i m e, I t hi nk, when som e of m y gender consci ent i z at i on st art ed t aki ng pl ace. I‟l l 23

t el l you about t hat a l i t t l e m ore.

W e went t o m ost

of t he cam puses, Fort Hare, t he Uni versi t y of Zul ul and, we even went t o R hodes, we part i ci pat ed i n som e event at R hodes, but ya, we real l y becam e, I t hi nk we were act ual l y i n dem and. P eopl e want ed t o see t hi s t hi ng. And t he way ot her t heat re groups as wel l , event ual l y I t hi nk, som e groups i n Durban got t oget her and form ed t he Theat re C ounci l of Nat al [ TEC ON] t oget her wi t h I t hi nk peopl e l i ke R onny Govender and I forget t he nam es of t he ot her groups. However, t here were som e di sagreem ent s,

and event ual l y i t was j ust one group whi ch sort of ret ai ned t he nam e t he Theat re C ounci l of Nat al . And I t hi nk t he Theat re C ounci l of Nat al was very m uch part of t he Bl ack C onsci ousness Movem ent because t he i dea was al so t o, t o prom ot e Bl ack C onsci ousness and what i t st ood for t hrough t he m edi um of art s and cul t ure. And for t wo years

runni ng we had t heat re groups from al l over t he count ry, bl ack t heat re groups, com i ng t oget her, i n Durban. And I t hi nk very few peopl e act ual l y And t hey were

recol l ect t hat part of our hi st ory.

very, very i m port ant because we had groups from t he W est ern C ape. t here were t he S erpent P l ayers and I t hi nk t hat was t he fi rst t i m e peopl e ha d act ual l y seem t hem i n Kwa -Zul u Nat al . P eopl e l i ke J ohn Khani and W i nst on Nt shona, t hey al l cam e down - i t was fant ast i c. And i t was j ust fant ast i c t o see t hat t here were peopl e who had si m i l ar i deas, you know and I t hi nk what one got was how sort of i sol at ed we were from each ot her. And I t hi nk t hese fest i val s were i m port ant because t hey sort of gave you t he sense t hat you were not al one and t hat what 24

we had was t he begi nni ng of t he growt h of ki nd of m ovem ent . Ya, so, ya I sai d we had t hose fest i val s goi ng for t wo years. W e al so went t o R hodes Uni versi t y, where we, I t hi nk, m ade a real i m pact . Event ual l y agai n, I t hi nk, because t he st at e

i nt ervened t he t heat re m ovem ent al so col l apsed. Through t he t heat re, t he fest i val s, we al so

est abl i shed a ki nd of nat i onal t heat re uni on, t he S out h Afri can Bl ack Theat re Uni on [ S ABTU] whi ch I t hi nk, was headed by S at hs, S t ri ni , J ohn Khani and a whol e l ot of ot her t heat re personal i t i es. I t hi nk

t here was event ual l y, t hat fest i val al so m oved t o t he W est ern C ape. I t hi nk t hat ‟s where, i n 1972, ,t hat ‟s where i t happened, I wasn‟t t here at t hat part i cul ar t i m e. Ya, so i f i t di d event ual l y com e t o an end, Ya, so t hat

t hat was because of st at e i nt ervent i on.

was one branch of t he Movem ent . At t he sam e t i m e t here were l ot s of yout h Movem ent s, t here were t he S out h Afri can S t udent s Yout h Movem ent , t here was ANAYO t he Nat al Yout h Organi sat i on, TR YO t he Transvaal Yout h Organi sat i on. was a l ot happeni ng. S t udent s C onvent i on, In m y m i nd, t here Bl ack Uni on, P eopl e‟s and your

There was t he S out h Afri can t he

Organi sat i on, t hen t he

Theat re

vari et y of yout h organi sat i ons.

Your com m uni t y

devel opm ent organi sat i ons, so at t hat t i m e BC had real l y spread and I t hi nk t hat was t he Movem ent , t he consci ousness of t hat part i cul ar m om ent i n hi st ory, and I t hi nk i t was real l y revol ut i onary because i t di d speak about bl ack peopl e bei ng t he archi t ect s of t hei r own dest i ny. And t hat sl ogan “Bl ack Man,” al t hough i t ‟s sex i st i n a way, “you‟re on your own,” was i m port ant , because i t di d put t he resp onsi bi l i t y 25

of pol i t i cal l i berat i on et cet era on bl ack peopl e and sai d: "l i st en, no whi t e savi or, no ot her person from out si de t here or wherever, i s com i ng t o save you, you‟ve got t o st and be on your own." DS : Okay, you sai d earl i er on, you are goi ng t o t el l us about your gender awareness. AM: Oh ya, ri ght . I don‟t t hi nk i t was hi ghl y devel oped t hen. But l ook, t here were cert ai n t hi ngs t hat you

not i ced, at odd t i m es. I m ust say i n S AS O, wom en were gi ven a l ot of space. I m ean i f I t here i s one t hi ng I r ecal l and t hat ‟s peopl e l i ke Vuyi Tshabal al a who‟s sadl y deceased now, and Mam phel a

R am phel a, who were real l y out spoken, and I m ean real l y di d a hel l of l ot t o gi ve di rect i on t o t he Movem ent . But I‟m t al ki ng about when you went I m ean you‟d sense t hi s out say t o cam puses, t hen you‟d sort of get a di fferent ki nd of t hi ng.

ki nd of m al e out rage, i f say som e of us st ood and I know who, part i cul arl y, Vuyi , because she was very st rong and very fort hri ght . If she st ood up and

m ade a st at em ent t he guys woul d act ual l y say: "l ook at t hi s wom an t el l i ng us what t o do." And of

course, she sm oked and t hat was a pri m ary si n t hen, and t hey sai d "she‟s sm oki ng, goi ng agai nst our cul t ure." And "she‟s weari ng j eans, even worse."

But Vuyi woul d j ust deal wi t h t hem , you know, i n a very perfunct ory, di rect way. But ya t here was t hi s ot her t hi ng, you were safe i n cert ai n spaces l i ke conferences and so on, you were free t o say your bi t . But I t hi nk when you went out , at ot her

m eet i ngs, you were al so aware of t hi s ot her, ot he r t hi ng, t hi s ki nd of prej udi ce t hat t hese were uppi t y wom en, you know. And I suppose t hat ‟s one st age, 26

som e st age i t woul d have rai sed i t sel f but gi ven how t hi ngs happened, t he fact t hat t here were al l t hese rai ds, peopl e were bei ng banned consi st ent l y, every t i m e one set of l eadershi p was banned and a new l eadershi p arose t o t ake i t s pl ace, t hey were al so banned. S o t here wasn‟t m uch t i m e t o sort of You were st i l l

engage i n t hat . DS : Okay l et ‟s go back t o t he BC t ri al .

t el l i ng us how you m anaged t o be t here i n P ret ori a and...? AM: Ya, I t hi nk i n P ret ori a, basi cal l y, t he fi rst peopl e we m et were, were qui t e pol i t i cal i n a sense t hat t he fri end I st ayed wi t h was som eone I had known duri ng uni versi t y days. S o t hey were qui t e wi l l i ng

t o provi de accom m odat i on and t o assi st you i n what ever way. Then t here was al so t he Nai doo

fam i l y who have al ways been pol i t i cal l y i nvol ved. One of t hei r sons, Indres Nai doo had been t ri ed pol i t i cal l y, and I t hi nk at t he t i m e, when we went t o P ret ori a, he was al ready servi ng hi s sent ence on R obben Isl and. m ai nl y because S o t here was t hat ki nd of support , m em bers of peopl e's fam i l i es had S o ya, and I t hi nk, not have part i ci pat ed

been i nvol ved pol i t i cal l y. al t hough peopl e m i ght

pol i t i cal l y t here was al ways sym pat hy for peopl e who were act i ve i n pol i t i cs. S o peopl e showed Event ual l y I

t hei r support i n a num ber of ways.

t hi nk, t here was t hi s very ki nd ol d m an - what was hi s nam e? but we were gi ven a l i t t l e pl ace t o st ay i n. W e were asked t o sort of prepare t he food for

t he guys. S ee t o t hei r needs get t hei r books and when t hei r fam i l i es cam e down see t o t he fam i l i es

27

and so on. But ya, t he com m uni t y t here was very support i ve. DS : W here was t hi s?

AM: Thi s was i n oh i n Marabast ad. DS : Marabast ad, okay.

AM: Marabast ad at t hat t i m e was qui t e an i nt erest i ng area. I t hi nk I rem em ber havi ng vi si t ed Marabast ad when I was a chi l d, and t he Marabast ad t hat we l i ved i n, I m ean cam e t o i n 1975/ 6 was very di fferent . I m ean i t was, i n a sense, not as l i vel y as i t used t o be pri or t o t he Group Areas. But st i l l , i t was qui t e a l i vel y pl ace. Al t hough part s of i t you

coul d see were desert ed. It was qui t e a good pl ace t o be i n event ual l y because we cam e t o know everybody and I suppose peopl e were very m uch aware of t he t ri al because every t i m e t here was a court appearance, t he papers di d cover i t . peopl e cam e t o know who we were. And so Even t he

skel em s [ gangst ers] , hey, [ l aughs] used t o com e t o us and say i f we needed t ransport , we coul d

approach t hem . DS : W ho was t hat ? S om e of t he guys

AM: W el l peopl e w e cam e t o know.

had who had cars and so on used t o com e and say i f you want ed t ransport we coul d use t hem . DS : Okay, I bel i eve W i nni e vi si t ed t he BC t ri al , woul d you l i ke t o t el l us about t hat ? AM: Yes, W i nni e di d com e t o t he t ri al , and I t hi nk i t was one of t he m ost encouragi ng t hi ngs for us. great . It was

I t hi nk, t he one t hi ng t hat I m ust em phasi se

i s t hat t he BC Movem ent has never seen i t sel f i n opposi t i on t o any of t he l i berat i on Movem ent s t hat cam e before. R at her, we saw oursel v es, as part of a 28

cont i nuum , t here‟s al ways been for us, t here has al ways been t he Li berat i on Movem ent . Li berat i on Movem ent has been ei t her And t he sort of

personi fi ed t hrough t he ANC or t he P AC or t he Uni t y Movem ent , at di fferent st ages. And of course, i t ‟s bei ng at t acked by t he syst em . S o we see t hat t he Movem ent , as a whol e, has had very l i ve m om ent s and t hen t here are ot her t i m es when i t ‟s qui et , because i t ‟s been under at t ack. S o cert ai nl y

when we cam e i n we saw oursel ves as part of a broader l i bera t i on m ovem ent . W e m i ght have been

cri t i cal of som e of t he posi t i ons t aken, but t hat was par for t he course. I m ean we were al so subj ect t o cri t i ci sm . And I t hi nk our dream al ways was of al l t he Li berat i on Movem ent s event ual l y com i ng

t oget her t o i ron out , t o t hrash out a pol i t i cal bl uepri nt for t hi s count ry. W e cert ai nl y di dn‟t see t hat t he dest i ny of t hi s count ry woul d be defi ned j ust by one Movem ent . DS : Okay how l ong di d you st ay i n P ret ori a?

AM: I t hi nk i t was about t wo years. DS : Two years.

AM: Two years. DS : W as i t whi ch year was t hi s?

AM: 1975 and 1976. DS : Okay 1975 and 1976. Okay, woul d you say, l i ke you know, t here i s t hi s m i sunderst andi ng of ex act l y who were responsi bl e for t he 1976 upri si ng? You hear

peopl e sayi ng ANC was i nvol ved and by t hat t i m e obvi ousl y ANC was banned, so i n your opi ni on? AM: I t hi nk t he upri si ngs m ust be seen i n t he cont ex t of t hose part i cul ar t i m es. I woul d, I don‟t know

whet her any Movem ent , any organi sat i on per se, can 29

say t hat i t was because of t hem . t hough.

I woul d ce rt ai nl y

see i t as an ex pressi on of bl ack consci ousness, But at t he sam e t i m e I‟m not goi ng t o say t hat i t was t he Bl ack P eopl e‟s C onvent i on t hat was responsi bl e for i t . Nor wi l l I say t hat i t was t he

S out h Afri ca S t udent s Organi sat i on, but cert ai nl y I t hi nk, i t i s a resul t of t he ki nd of awareness, pol i t i cal awareness t hat was creat ed t hat was re awakened by t he Bl ack C onsci ousness Movem ent . Because I t hi nk i f we l ook back i n hi st ory, qui t e honest l y, t he ot her l i berat i on m ovem ent s had been banned duri ng t he si x t i es. There was a pol i t i cal l ul l and underst andabl y so, because t here were very draconi an l aws passed. S uppressi on of The Terrori sm Act , t he Act , peopl e were

C om m uni sm

det ai ned i ndefi ni t el y for hel l of a l ong peri ods of t i m e. And I t hi nk one can underst and t hat t hose

t hi ngs woul d have a ki nd of det erri ng effect on any ki nd of pol i t i cal act i vi sm t hat peopl e m i ght want t o engage i n. And cert ai nl y peopl e wi l l t el l you t hat I t hi nk t he di fference t hat worked

t hey worked underground. bet ween t hose

organi sat i ons

underground, you know duri ng t he 60's, and t he BC Movem ent t hat cam e i nt o bei ng i n t he l at er 60's and was at i t ‟s hei ght i n t he earl y 70's ri ght up t i l l about 1978, I‟d say. The BC Movem ent worked overt l y and was heard qui t e openl y at conferences and I‟ve m ent i oned al l t hose m ovem ent s t o you so I woul d say t hat t he upri si ngs were a ki nd of ex pressi on of bl ack consci ousness wi t hout speci fi cal l y sayi ng t hat any organi sat i on was responsi bl e for i t . DS : Okay aft er t he t ri al what happened?

30

AM: Aft er t he t ri al , wel l peopl e went off t o pri son.

I

cam e back t o Durban. And I m ust say i t was st range com i ng back t o Durban, because on refl ect i on, i t was t wo whol e years out of one‟s l i fe. And t hen I

recei ved a cal l from Mam phel a and S t eve who asked m e t o com e t o Ki ng [ Ki ng W i l l i am s Town] t o work i n t he research depart m ent of t he Bl ack C om m uni t y P rogram m e. S o i n a sense, i t was l i ke, you know,

goi ng around i n a ci rcl e and com i ng back t o where I had been before goi ng t o P ret ori a. S o I worked, I

t hi nk, I had j ust onl y st art ed and t hen i n August , I'm al ways very consci ous of August 26t h because t hat ‟s t he day when I was arrest ed. W el l t wo weeks before t hat , S t eve (Bi ko) and P et er (J ones) went off t o C ape Town. S t eve was banned, at t hat t i m e. The

purpose of t hei r goi ng t o C ape Town was t o m eet wi t h m em bers of t he ot her l i berat i on organi sat i ons. I t hi nk t o engage i n t al ks and I t hi nk, at t hat t i m e, I don‟t t hi nk I‟m not , I‟m not sayi ng t hat I was part y t o anyt hi ng. But I cert ai nl y know t hat t here wa s t he i dea cert ai nl y am ongst al l t he Li berat i on Movem ent s t hat i t was t i m e t hat t hey al l cam e t oget her and st art ed worki ng out t hi ngs for t he count ry. I‟m j ust put t i ng i t i n very broad t erm s but I know one of t he purposes, t he pri m e purpose of t hat vi si t of S t eve‟s was t o m eet wi t h m em bers of ot her Li berat i on Movem ent s i n C ape Town. And t hat was goi ng t o be part of a process. I don‟t have det ai l s of t hat process. DS : Okay so you worked cl osel y wi t h S t eve Bi ko?

AM: W el l I worked wi t h hi m on t he publ i cat i ons, t he publ i cat i on sect i on and what ever was happeni ng i n

31

t he East ern C ape, ya, I cert ai nl y worked t here, at t endi ng som e of t he m any conferences, and so on. DS : W oul d you l i ke t o t el l us about your arrest ? Okay when,

AM: You m ean t he det ai l s and everyt hi ng?

when I was arrest ed, i t was qui t e t erri bl e act ual l y, because aft er S t eve and t hem were det ai ned, S t eve and P et er. I suppose m ost of us fel t t hat t here wasn‟t m uch t o worry about t hat , t he m ost t o worry about was t he fact t hat S t eve had broken hi s ban ni ng order. But I t hi nk a day or t wo aft er t hei r det ent i on t hi ngs becam e very ugl y because t he pol i ce i n Ki ng W i l l i am ‟s Town st art ed com i ng over and, I t hi nk, over t he nex t t wo weeks t hey basi cal l y arrest ed m em bers of st aff, and st art ed confi scat i ng a whol e l ot of st uff from t he offi ces. And i n t he end, I t hi nk, t here was onl y m ysel f and Mal usi Mpul wana who were l eft i n t he offi ce, so i t was qui t e a horri bl e feel i ng t o see t he offi ces, whi ch had once been qui t e ful l , em pt y of peopl e and of m ost of i t s equ i pm ent and publ i cat i ons, and wel l , I t hi nk t hey had t aken, t he day before I was arrest ed, t hey act ual l y t ol d m e „we are goi ng t o com e and pi ck you up t om orrow.‟ It was di ffi cul t t o know what t o do And I t hi nk I di dn‟t wi t h t hat because Mal usi sai d, „wel l m aybe you shoul d j ust ski p, go away.‟

want t o do t hat because I act ual l y bel i eve I sai d t o Mal usi , „l ook, I t hi nk m aybe j ust det ent i on for a few days or m aybe t hey j ust fri ght eni ng m e because t hi s i s what cops do.‟ And I act ual l y I t hi nk when t he

guys ha d been arrest ed aft er t he Frel i m o R al l y, when I fi rst went t o P ret ori a, I was t ol d t o l i e l ow for about a m ont h, whi ch I di d. And i t was horri bl e. S o I sai d I wasn‟t goi ng t o go t hrough t hat 32

ex peri ence agai n.

And I m ust say I di dn‟t bel i eve

t hat anyt hi ng woul d com e out of t hi s arrest of P et er and S t eve. W el l , on t hat Fri day, I rem em ber t hey

cam e and t hey arrest ed m e and t hat was i n t he eveni ng. DS : W hat year was t hi s?

AM: 1977. DS : 1977.

AM: And i t was dark, and i t was col d, and t here were i t was t wo pol i cem en from Ui t enhage. S o you get

qui t e an eeri e feel i ng bei ng dri ven al ong i n t he ni ght , and t hen I was t aken t o Ui t enhage, put i n a cel l . And al l I rem em ber was t hat I had on t hese boot s and coat and warm cl ot hi ng and I woul dn‟t even t ake off m y boot s for t he whol e durat i on of t hat weekend, because you j ust sort of fel t you had t o keep yoursel f t oget her. It ‟s di ffi cul t t o recol l ect al l t hat , but I know I di d feel i sol at ed and t hat feel i ng of i sol at i on had al ready st art ed t o grow because of what had happened at t he offi ces, you know, wi t h t he arrest of peopl e. But on t hat S unday of m y arrest , i t was qui t e l at e at ni ght when t wo very short and m ean -l ooki ng whi t e m en cam e i nt o t he cel l and t hey sai d: "so you are Asha." And I

sai d: "yes." And t hey sai d: "wel l l i st en, you bet t er m ake up your bl essed m i nd t o t al k or el se." And

wel l t hey cam e i nt o t he cel l and t hi s guy sort of, whi l e t al ki ng t o m e, you know, sort of pushed forward, so t hat I event ual l y sort of backed i nt o t he wal l . But t here was som et hi ng t erri bl y m enaci ng Lat er on I from P ort

about t hese guys, sm al l as t hey were. real i sed t hat t hey were t hese cops

El i z abet h.

In fact , t hei r part i ng shot t o m e was 33

"don‟t t hi nk t hat we are l i ke t he pol i ce from Durban or Ki ng W i l l i am ‟s Town", because I‟d al so been pi cked up i n Ki ng W i l l i am ‟s Town on one or t wo occasi ons. Because al l t hese peopl e want ed t o know what t hey cal l ed m e a Kerri ekos Mei si e. W hat a

Kerri ekos Mei si e, a so -cal l ed Indi an wom an, was doi ng i n Ki ng W i l l i am ‟s Town wi t h Afri can peopl e . I t hi nk t hat was som et hi ng hi ghl y unusual for t hem . But by and l arge, t hey basi cal l y sai d t hey were goi ng t o t each m e a l esson. And t hen, you know, I rem em ber t hat one day. My cel l had been ful l of m at t resses, you know, t hese t hi n m at t resses. But t hey cam e, t he warder‟s cam e t hat day, and cl eared i t up and I was l eft wi t h j ust t wo m at t resses. I t hi nk t hat was on t he i nst ruct i ons of t he P E pol i ce and whereas duri ng t hat weekend I had been t aken out t o a sm al l quadrangl e t o get som e fresh ai r, from t h at t i m e on, I wasn‟t al l owed t o get out of t hat cel l at al l . And t hen I wasn‟t al l owed t o wash or anyt hi ng. There woul d be a wom an pri son warden who woul d com e t o see i f I needed sani t ary pads or som et hi ng. And but t here was no pl ace t o have a bat h or a shower or anyt hi ng. I wasn‟t gi ven any change of

cl ot hi ng, not hi ng. I do rem em ber t hat , sorry, I t hi nk i t was on t he 12t h of S ept em ber. I rem em ber t hat very cl earl y because of what happened l at er. I used t o keep t abs on t he dat es by scrat chi ng on t he w al l . I was pi cked up by t wo guys and t aken t o P E t hi s t i m e, t o t hat S anl am bui l di ng where I t hi nk som e det ai nee had been t hrown down t he st ai rwel l , because t hat ‟s t he fi rst t hi ng t hey do anyway when t hey t ake you t here. They t ake you up t o t hat

st ai rwel l . I found t hi s out l at er from ot her peopl e, 34

and t el l you, „you see,‟ and t hey m ake you l ook downst ai rs, and t hey used t o t el l you t hat ‟s where you are headed for i f you don‟t co -operat e. W el l , I was i nt errogat ed about a pam phl et t hat S t eve was supposed t o have drawn up. And accordi ng t o t he t he S at urday up and

pol i ce, I had been at t he offi ce on when t hat pam phl et had been

drawn

phot ocopi ed. And essent i al l y, what t hey want ed m e say was t hat I had seen S t eve fi rst l y, t hat S t eve and I had sort of drawn up t hat pam phl et . And t hat

S t eve had phot ocopi ed i t for som e group or ot her from P E, and act ual l y no such t hi ng had happened. S o i t was t he easi est t hi ng i n t he worl d for m e t o say no, but I j ust rem em ber sayi ng, „no you‟re wrong.‟ I t hi nk t he nex t t hi ng I j ust fel t t hi s

horri bl e, horri bl e pai n and t hen I real i sed t hat t here was a guy behi nd m e wi t h a pi ece of green hose. And t hen t here was anot her chap i n front of m e wi t h hi s open pal m and essent i al l y t hey beat m e up wi t h a l engt h of green hose. t i m e you sort of... DS : C an we pause? And t hi s, you know, every

AM: Ya. R EC OR DING INTER R UP TED ON R ES UMP TION DS : W e are back. You were st i l l t el l i ng us.

AM: Ya, I t hi nk i t was a very t raum at i c ex peri ence for m e because I was badl y assaul t ed. And i f you t hi nk ab out i t was, on refl ect i on, over som et hi ng t hat real l y wasn‟t t rue and I di dn‟t know anyt hi ng about it. Apparent l y t here had been som e pam phl et s

ci rcul at ed i n P ort El i z abet h, at t hat t i m e, whi ch were suppos ed t o be hi ghl y i nfl am m at ory, but by 35

t hen, and I t hi nk, I t hi nk i t brought hom e t o m e, how deadl y t hi s syst em was, i n a way. How you

coul d j ust be ki l l ed i n t ot al i sol at i on and I t hi nk, I t hi nk i t al so brought i n a sense how l onel y t he ot her, t he ot her peopl e m ust have been who di ed i n det ent i on, l i ke Map et l a Mohapi , a com rade. I t hi nk you know, t hat peri od was part i cul arl y charact eri sed by a num ber of deat hs i n det ent i on. There was al so t he deat h of Im am Haroon, I t hi nk, whi ch sort of i m pact ed on your consci ousness, ya, but t he

brut al i t y of t he syst em , I t hi nk, on one l evel real l y com es hom e t o you, at t hat ki nd of st age. Because you real l y di scover how al one you are, and wel l , and what sort of l i cence t hese guys had. By t he end of t he day I coul dn‟t see a t hi ng because I t hi nk m y eyes - I coul d j ust s ee a t eeny-weeni e bi t of t he worl d, t hat ‟s how bad i t was. But I t hi nk I was kept t here t he whol e ni ght . I t hi nk som ebody el se was al so bei ng beat en up and assaul t ed. Because

event ual l y, I j ust sai d out of pure sense of survi val , oh no, no t hi s i s what happened. They brought one of m y col l eagues t o m e, Inz angu, who used t o work at t he Zanem phi l o C l i ni c, t hat ‟s were I st ayed when I was i n Ki ng W i l l i am ‟s Town. And Inz angu was

bl eedi ng he was brui sed t here was bl ood pouri ng out of hi s nose and he j ust l ooke d at m e and he sai d, "Asha,” I t hi nk t hi s was t he t act i c of t he securi t y cops. “Asha, why don‟t you t el l t hem t hat you had t he keys t o t he offi ce." And t hat wel l basi cal l y t hey had obvi ousl y asked hi m t he sam e quest i ons about t he pam phl et s. suffer. And I t hi nk t he i dea was t o l et m e know t hat i f I di dn‟t sort of confess, he woul d And he act ual l y sai d t o m e "why don‟t you 36

t el l t hem t hat you had t he key and t hat you saw t he pam phl et s." was And i t was qui t e a, I don‟t know, i t

t raum at i c l ooki ng at Inz angu . I suppose we

bot h t raum at i sed each ot her and I never real l y m et hi m aft er t hat . I‟m not sure what happened t o hi m . W hen I went back, I j ust sai d wel l m aybe one j ust has t o say t hat one saw t hi s t hi ng. But at t he sam e t i m e, at t he back of m y m i nd I was very aware of t he real reason t hat S t eve and P et er had l eft . And I was real l y worri ed about t hat . And, I t hi nk,

psychol ogi cal l y, i f you feel t hat i f you say yes t o one t hi ng, t hen you m i ght sort of weaken, and say yes t o a whol e l ot ot her t hi ngs. I was ve ry anx i ous about not l et t i ng on about t hat . Am az i ngl y t hey di dn‟t quest i on m e about t he purpose of t hat t ri p, al t hough t owards t he end, I t hi nk t hey were sayi ng t hi ngs l i ke I m ean i n t hei r Afri kaans t hat "t hi s one knows t hi ngs." I know a l i t t l e el em ent ary Afri kaans but I t hi nk by t hat t i m e t hey had beat en t he hel l out of bot h m e and Inz angu and probabl y ot her peopl e. And m aybe t hey were, I‟m j ust conj ect uri ng now, but perhaps i t was qui t e l at e at ni ght , t hey m ust have fel t t hat t hey had done t hei r day's w ork. But I st ayed t here i n P E overni ght and t hen t he nex t m orni ng I was t aken back t o Ui t enhage t o t he pri son cel l , and t hen about an hour or so l at er a m agi st rat e was brought . And t he m agi st rat e l ooks at m e and he was a whi t e guy and he says: "are you okay? " And any fool coul d j ust see t hat I was obvi ousl y not okay. And t hat ‟s anot her t hi ng t hat j ust m ade you

real i se how real l y al one you were, t hat you coul d be ki l l ed and nobody woul d know what had happened t o you. And i n a sense, I t hi nk, i t m ade m e real i z e, 37

l i ke l ook, I t hi nk t here i s som et hi ng happeni ng out t here wi t h t he rest of t he peopl e who had been det ai ned. W hat i t i s I don‟t know, but I j ust knew t hen t hat i t wasn‟t goi ng t o be j ust a few weeks of det ent i on. S o ya, t he m agi st rat e cam e, I t hi nk a

doct or cam e. I was gi ven som e sedat i on and I t hi nk - I don‟t know how l ong i t t ook for m e t o recover from t he sort of physi cal wounds, but cert ai nl y I knew I was on m y own. But about a week and a hal f l at er I was t aken agai n for i nt errogat i on. Thi s t i m e i t wasn‟t about - wel l t hey di d ask m e about t he t hi ng t hat I was real l y worri ed about . Thi s t i m e

t hey sai d: "wel l , you di d say t hat you saw t he key and so on and you know about t he pam phl et s." And t hen I sai d wel l , by t hat t i m e I had had t i m e t o t hi nk about what I woul d say if I went back to

i nt errogat i on. And t hen I t ol d t hi s guy I sai d: "wel l l i st en, I act ual l y l i ed t o you." And you know i f

anyt hi ng fl oored t hem i t was t hat . And "no but you sai d" I sai d "yes I sai d t hat because you beat m e up. " And he says "you're t el l i ng m e t hat I beat you up, but I wasn‟t here. wi t h you, pret end t hat Thi s i s t he fi rst t i m e I‟m you, you know, you‟re It was t he sam e guy com i ng." And t hat ‟s how t hey sort of pl ayed around

m aki ng a m i st ake and so on.

who had been part of t he i nt errogat i on t eam . And I sai d "no i t was you." And he sai d "I never saw any such t hi ng. It was you who act ual l y put words i n

m y m out h" and I sai d "I j ust t hought t o st ave off any m ore beat i ng, I‟l l have t o say what you want m e t o say." W el l t here was a l ot of t o -i ng and fro -i ng

and I j ust rem em ber si t t i ng t here for t he great er part of t he day and t hen i n t he eveni ng I was t aken back. 38

But I had a feel i ng t hat t here were ot her peopl e al so bei ng i nt errogat ed, at t hat t i m e. was t aken on t he t hi rd occasi on, And t hen I but not hi ng

happened I j ust sat i n t hat offi ce and I was j ust t aken away. But on refl ect i on, I t hi nk by t hat t i m e, t hey were t ryi ng t o probabl y concoct a ki nd of st ory because by t hat t i m e S t eve was dead. I di dn‟t know about t hat . I t hi nk I onl y cam e t o know t hat S t eve had di ed l at e i n Decem ber. And duri ng t he t i m e I

was t aken i nt o i nt errogat i on, I t hi nk t he cops were t ryi ng t o at t em pt t o put t oget her a pl ausi bl e st ory whi ch t hey coul d sel l t o t he publ i c and perhaps because of what al l of us had sai d m aybe t hey real i sed t hey coul dn‟t . But t he l ong and t he short of i t i s t hat I di dn‟t know what had happened t o S t eve unt i l Decem ber when one of t he Ui t enhage pol i ce cam e and j ust sai d, very st arkl y "by t he way do you know t hat your fri end i s dead." By t hat t i m e I

t hought t hat i f anybody, you know, woul d be real l y ki l l ed t o t hat i t woul d be P et er. Because I sort of

bel i eved S t eve when he sai d, S t eve used t o al ways used t o t el l us "you know what , you guys you m ust real l y prepare for det ent i on." And we used t o ask hi m what about yoursel f, so he say‟s "wel l m e, l ook, t hey won‟t real l y t ouch m e "because and i t ‟s t rue he was i nt ernat i onal l y known. Duri ng m y st ay i n Ki ng W i l l i am ‟s Town, he used t o get al l ki nds of vi si t ors from overs eas so i t ‟s i roni cal he was recogni sed. Hi s t eachi ngs et cet era, t he BC Movem ent were recogni sed overseas. And he says "t hey know about m y i nt ernat i onal connect i ons" and so on. And so I

t hought i f anyone woul d di e i t m i ght be P et er. S o i t was a hel l of a - not t hat P et er i s of any l esser val ue 39

- but I t hi nk i t was t he st ark way i n whi ch i t was sai d. And I act ual l y t hought t hat m aybe t hey were

t ryi ng t o, you know, bl ow m y m i nd because I was kept i n i sol at i on and i t ‟s very di ffi cul t t o keep yoursel f t og et her whi l e i n i sol at i on. S o I t hought

m aybe t hi s was one of t hei r ways t o t ry and break m e down. But t here was one Ui t enhage pol i cem an

who was i n charge of m e. I t hi nk he used t o com e on S undays j ust t o see how I was, and t hen I asked hi m . I sai d "l i st en, can you, I m ean i s i t t rue t hat And he sai d "i t i s." som et hi ng." He And I sai d at l east

S t eve i s dead? " "wel l get me

was

approachabl e. And t hen he brought m e an art i cl e, a newspaper cl i ppi ng whi ch sort of confi rm ed t o m e t hat S t eve was, was dead. di ffi cul t aft er t hat . But i t was very, very

And I had a ki nd of rout i ne t o I coul d t el l you a bi t about

sort of keep t oget her. t hat . DS : C an you t el l us.

AM: Yes, t hey woul d com e i n t he m orni ng bri ng your breakfast j ust t wo sl i ces of bread and coffee. And

t hen I woul d sort of j ust sl eep for an hour and t hen I woul d sort of draw on a ki nd of chessboard on t he fl oor and I had m ade m y own versi on of chess. I

had m ade m y own chess pi eces out of bi t s of t oi l et paper and sort of say, okay I‟m goi ng t o pl ay, you know, t wo gam es because t hat hel ps t o pass t he t i m e. W e sort of get t o know t he t i m e because t hey‟d bri ng, woul d bri ng you t he m eal s regul arl y at fi x ed hours. And t hen I‟d ex erci se, wal ki ng up and down t he cel l say t aki ng 5000 st eps t hat ‟s your ex erci se. And t hen you have anot her l i t t l e sl eep and t hen t hey woul d bri ng you your l unch and t hen you 40

pl ay gam es agai n and ex erci se, i t ‟s a hel l of a rout i ne. I j ust wonder whet her I woul d be abl e t o

do t hat agai n. But som et i m es you do sort of wonder whet he r you‟re daft , or what . But t here were som e hi l ari ous m om ent s t oo because I t hi nk aft er t he t hi rd t i m e I was t aken for i nt errogat i on, from what I gat her t here was a l ot of concern ex pressed by our fri ends about t he wel fare of... DS : Oh, can we pause?

END TAP E 1B TAP E 2A DS : W e are back you were st i l l t el l i ng us about how you m anaged t o, you know, t o pul l yoursel f t hrough, whi l e you were i n det ent i on. AM: You m ean keep m ysel f t oget her? DS : Yes.

AM: Ya, wel l I t hi nk I had l ot s of m odel s t o draw from t oo, because ot her wom en had al so been in

det ent i on, ot her peopl e.

I m ean t hey had Vi no, S he i s our

t here was C el e Bri dget t e Mabandhl a.

deput y Mi ni st er for - gosh t hi s i s di sgraceful , Art s and C ul t ure, she pl ayed an i m port ant rol e i n get t i ng back S arah Baart m an‟s rem ai ns. But from al l

account s she underwent a harrowi ng ex peri ence and event ual l y, pol i t i cal P ret ori a. she was in t he onl y pri soner, wom an in pri soner, t he wom en‟s pri son

And I t hi nk, at one st age, we used t o Ya, so

act ual l y t ake her, her books and m eal s.

whenever i t got bad, I m ean you al ways, i t was useful t o t hi nk on ot her peopl e. But t hen you al so

had t o use t hese ot her st rat egi es t oo, t o keep t oget her. And I suppose one of t he quest i ons you

41

al ways ask yoursel f i s whet her you are 100 percent or what ? You never know. DS : Okay, how l ong were you det ai ned? I went i n AM: I‟d say j ust under one and a hal f years.

August and I was rel eased i n August 1977, and I was rel eased i n Decem ber 1978. was i n sol i t ary confi nem ent . But not al l of i t

I t hi n k I spent about

si x m ont hs i n sol i t ary confi nem ent , and t hen I was t ransferred to t he Graham st own P ri son under

P revent at i ve Det ent i on. And t hat i f you can cal l i m pri sonm ent bet t er, was cert ai nl y m uch bet t er. I went t here and found Di m sa P i t yana. S he‟d been det ai ned, so i t was great seei ng her. Act ual l y we

had l ost cont act wi t h each ot her for years, aft er she and Barney l eft Durban. S o i t was great m eet i ng

her, even i f i t was i n pri son. And she had al so been i n i sol at i on and, you know, for her, m eet i ng m y sel f and Nohl e Mohape, who had al so been det ai ned, i t was a sort of good reuni on, even t hough i t was i n pri son. But t hat was for a short -l i ved whi l e. I

t hi nk event ual l y, t here were ot her wom en who were brought i n because t hey were det ai ni ng wom en under t he P revent at i ve Det ent i on Laws. There was Bandi Bi ko, and gosh I‟ve forgot t en t he nam es of t he ot her peopl e. But for a whi l e t here were about And event ual l y t hey were

four or fi ve of us.

rel eased, and t hen I was on m y own for several m ont hs before I was event ual l y rel eased. I m ust say aft er havi ng peopl e and t hen bei ng i n i sol at i on agai n, i t was a peri od of re -adj ust m ent . But at l east i t wasn‟t as di ffi cul t as t he sol i t ary confi nem ent part because t hi s t i m e I had books and a l i t t l e t ransi st or radi o, so i f you have t hat I t hi nk you can 42

survi ve anyt hi ng. Especi al l y i f you have been, anyt hi ng‟s bet t er t han sol i t ary confi nem ent , I t hi nk. DS : Okay, so di d you go t o t ri al ?

AM: No, not at al l . DS : They j ust rel eased you?

AM: I t hi nk wi t h al l of us who were det ai ned, we were j ust kept t here, I t hi nk, because t here was

t rem endous publ i ci t y aft er S t eve di ed and I t hi nk t here was al so a great am ount of concern ex pressed about t he rest of us. But I t hi nk t hey di dn‟t want t o rel ease us soon, possi bl y because of what we m i ght j ust say, at t hat part i cul ar m om ent . P erhaps t hei r

st rat egy was t hat i f we were rel eased l at er, you know, t he whol e st orm woul d have di ed down so we woul dn‟t have m ade m uch of an i m pact , i f we were rel eased l at er. I can‟t real l y say what t hei r st rat egy was, but t hat ‟s m y own ex pl anat i on of i t . But ya, al l of us who were det ai ned di dn‟t go on t ri al at al l . I t hi nk t he i dea real l y was t o get S t eve. recal l t he words Town of t he pol i cem an as bei ng And i f I P ort and

from weak

El i z abet h, basi cal l y t hey di d see t hat see t he Ki ng W i l l i am ‟s i neffect i ve. P ol i ce

Because S t eve had been arrest ed a

num ber of t i m es, but he‟d been abl e t o argue hi s way out of m ost of t he cases brought agai nst hi m . S o I t hi nk t hei r i dea was t hat t hey were real l y goi ng t o get hi m , and see hi m go t o pri son. On t he ot her hand, of course, t here have al ways been quest i ons about whet her S t eve‟s deat h was a pre -m edi t at ed t hi ng, and whet her i t was t hei r i nt ent i on anyway t o ki l l hi m . I‟ve never real l y been abl e t o get m uch on t hat .

43

DS :

C an you, are you abl e t o recal l how ot her peopl e who were det ai ned were ki l l ed?

AM: W el l t here was Mapet l a Mohapi who was supposed t o have hanged hi m sel f. You‟re t al ki ng about peopl e from t he BC Movem ent , or j ust general l y? soap, whi l e havi ng a bat h. Ot her

det ai nees are al l e ged t o have sl i pped on a bar of (Ahm ed) Ti m ol ‟s i s

al ways graphi c. I m ean t hey t el l you t hat he at t acked a pol i cem an, and t hen t ri ed t o escape by j um pi ng t hrough a wi ndow, on t he sevent h fl oor. I m ean

t hey real l y m ust have t aken t he publ i c for bei ng absol ut e fool s i f t hey want ed t o sel l a st ory l i ke t hat . But , ya, peopl e di ed under horrendous

ci rcum st ances.

It was al ways a j oke when peopl e

were bei ng arrest ed and i f you sort of warned t hem "m ake sure you don‟t sl i p on a bar of soap" or som et hi ng l i ke t hat . But i t ‟s i m possi bl e, you know, hangi ng yoursel f and so on, because when you go t o pri son t hey s t ri p you of your bel t s et cet era. You‟ve got t o be pret t y i nnovat i ve t o sort of reach up t o t he wi ndows, whi ch are very hi gh above, t o hang yoursel f. S o i t ‟s j ust a ri di cul ous, t he ki nd of

t hi ngs t hey cam e out wi t h. DS : Okay, so aft er you had been rel eased, what

happened? AM: Oh on rel ease agai n, al l t hese t hi ngs seem t o t ake pl ace i n t he ni ght . I j ust rem em ber, one eveni ng

t wo guys com i ng and sayi ng "okay, pack your bags, you are now goi ng hom e" and wel l I was handcuffed and dri ven al l t hen way from Ui t enhage t o C ol enso. W el l , before we set off I was gi ven a fi ve -year banni ng order. It was read out t o m e i n pri son. S o I found m ysel f com i ng back t o m y hom et own C ol enso. 44

Dependent on m y parent s, i t was very hard because l i ke I sai d, C ol enso was a very sm al l t own and t here i s no work t here. And I was confi ned t o t he m agi st eri al di st ri ct of Est court so t here wasn‟t m uch opport uni t y for work i n t hat area. It woul d have m eant t ravel l i ng out and com i ng back and I don‟t t hi nk m any peopl e to are very who keen was on gi vi ng and

em pl oym ent

som eone

banned

m arked as pol i t i cal . And even t hough C ol enso i s a sm al l t own t he securi t y pol i ce were t here. They cam e regul arl y, t hey sort of asked t he com m uni t y about m y m ovem ent s, and so on. And I di d get

charged wi t h breaki ng m y banni ng order. I went t o Est court , t o a part y, and som eone spoke about t hat and wel l I was charged and found gui l t y of bre aki ng m y banni ng order. I don‟t t hi nk peopl e t ook

banni ng orders seri ousl y, and i f you t ake S t eve, i f you t ake Tenj i we Mt i nt so, who was banned and rest ri ct ed t o J ohannesburg,t hose are pri m e ex am pl es of how seri ousl y peopl e t ook banni ng orders. Li ke

S t eve used t o t ravel out qui t e a bi t - very few peopl e knew about it. He used to go to

J ohannesburg and I bel i eve he m ade a few t ri ps down t he East ern C ape and Tenj i we used t o t ravel al l t he way from J ohannesburg t o Ki ng W i l l i am ‟s Town. And t hat ‟s qui t e a di s t ance, spend t he week and t hen go back, so we had a very good net works. P eopl e used t o know how t o deal wi t h t hat . And

even at t he t i m e, when S t eve l eft , I m ean he j ust t ol d m e "pl ease t el l Mam a" t hat ‟s hi s Mum , "t hat I‟m off, and t hat she‟s not t o worry, I‟l l be back." And hi s Mum knew t hat he went out . But t hat ‟s,

t hose are t he l ast words t hat S t eve sai d t o m e and 45

t hat ‟s m y l ast recal l of hi m i n hi s brown corduroy coat and pant s, whi ch we al ways t eased hi m about . And t hen, ya, j ust dri vi ng off i nt o t he darkness wi t h P et er. Qui t e a num ber of t hi ngs happened i n Ki ng W i l l i am ‟s Town, you know, Mam phel a R am phel a was t he resi dent doct or t here at t he Zanem phi l o C l i ni c. The Bl ack C om m uni t y P rogram m es di d The

qui t e a num ber of t hi ngs i n t he com m uni t y.

cl i ni c was a great ex am pl e of t he ki nd of com m uni t y devel opm ent work t he Bl ack C onsci ousness

Movem ent bel i eved i n, because peopl e woul d com e for heal t h care needs. There was a pl ace for wom en t o have t hei r chi l dren, t here were regul ar cl asses for wom en nursi ng chi l dren. There was an agri cul t ural offi cer, who went around t he com m uni t i es and spoke about basi c food growi ng, sort of t aki ng care of your needs and usi ng t he best agri cul t ural

m et hods.

And we had a m obi l e cl i ni c, whi ch went

out i nt o t he vi l l ages i n t he out l yi ng rural areas. And I rem em ber one occasi on when I went wi t h t he t eam j ust t o observe and we had t o si t wi t h t he C hi ef and t he C hi ef deci ded t hat we shoul d have l unch wi t h hi m . And I t hi nk t here was Mal usi ,

m ysel f and who el se was i t , Nohl e, and Mal usi warned Nohl e and m ysel f. He says, „l i st en, what ever happens because event ual l y we real i sed t hat we were bei ng served wi t h sheep‟s boi l ed, boi l ed sheep‟s heads, ri ght . And Nohl e sai d, „I don‟t know how I‟m goi ng t o eat t hi s‟, because bot h of us coul dn‟t st and i t , but we had t o eat t hat . W e had t o t ake pi eces of i t and t hen eat because Mal usi sai d i f you deny, you know, t he hospi t al i t y t he C hi ef‟s offeri ng you, t hat m i ght be t he end of t he proj ect 46

and our vi si t here. S o ya, but a l ot of good work w as done. And where was I, t al ki ng about Mam phel a.

Ya, about her work. DS : Okay.

AM: And she was real l y i nst rum ent al t here, as wel l . R i ght , and I t hi nk, because she was such a powerful fi gure i n t hat area t he pol i ce deci ded t o ban her. And so whi l e I was t here, t hey served t he banni ng order on her, whi ch sort of rest ri ct ed her ri ght t o t he Nort h of t he Transvaal t o Leneni a, I t hi nk, and I t hi nk i t was one of t he worst t hi ngs t hat coul d have befal l en t he proj ect , at t hat part i cul ar t i m e. It was so unex pe ct ed. In any event , t he banni ng order had her nam e spel t i ncorrect l y, so t echni cal l y she fel t t hat , we deci ded t hat t hey had banned t he wrong person. S o she cam e back and t he pol i ce coul dn‟t

do m uch, because t hey were t ol d act ual l y i f t he spel l i ng i s wrong you‟ve got t he wrong person. S o she was abl e t o com e back and spend I t hi nk j ust over a week before t hey got t he banni ng order ri ght . But I t hi nk what I‟m t ryi ng t o i l l ust rat e i s t he ki nd of spi ri t t hat peopl e had, you know, peopl e were basi cal l y det e rm i ned not t o be cowed down by a banni ng order et cet era, and t o go on. I m ean i f you l ook at t he Bl ack C om m uni t y P rogram m es offi ce i n t he East ern C ape, at t hat t i m e, i t was a sort of t ri but e t o t he ki nd of st rengt h t hat peopl e had. Even before S t eve had been t aken away from Durban and rest ri ct ed t o Ki ng W i l l i am ‟s Town, but t hat di dn‟t st op hi m from sort of revi vi ng t he whol e program m e i n t hat area and get t i ng i t t o spread. And I t hi nk, part of t he effect s of t he work t he evi dence, t hat peopl e were bei ng m ade aware of 47

t hi ngs was i n t he ki nd of songs t hey sang. And t he poem s t hey read out at som e of t he com m uni t y gat heri ngs because I t hi nk every si x weeks or so at t he cl i ni c, t here woul d be a bi g part y, sort of get t i ng t oget her of peopl e from t he com m uni t y. And t here

woul d be a l ot of si ngi ng and speeches, but from what peopl e sang about et cet era you coul d see t hat what t he proj ect s were t ryi ng t o achi eve, peopl e worki ng t oget her, bei ng sel f -rel i ant , and so on, was get t i ng hom e. S o ya I t hi nk, when one t hi nks of what t he cl i ni c was l i ke l at er, I don‟t what i t ‟s l i ke now i t ‟s very sad because i t was real l y a vi brant pl ace at one st age. I bel i eve event ual l y t hi s C i skei n Governm ent t ook over t he cl i ni c. But i t was a ghost of what i t had form erl y been. I woul d l i ke t o vi si t i t now, because S t eve‟s son Nkosi nat hi and hi s Mum are t ryi ng t o get t hi ngs goi ng i n t hat area t hrough t he S t eve Bi ko Foundat i on. DS : Okay so you were gi ven a fi ve -years banni ng orders. AM: Ya but I di dn‟t sort of, I t hi nk, aft er t he t hi rd year m y banni ng order was l i ft ed. I t hi nk i t coi nci ded

wi t h t he rel ease of a whol e l ot of peopl e from R obben Isl and. And qui t e a num ber of ot her peopl e who had been banned al so had t hei r banni ng orders l i ft ed. S o I cam e back t o Durban t o l ook for a j ob. DS : W hat year was t hat ?

AM: That woul d have been i n 1979. DS : 1979. AM: Ya, I t hi nk so, ya i t ‟s di ffi cul t t o keep t rack ya. DS : Okay so where di d you work? qui t e cl ear t hat t here‟s no work for you. No, t hat ‟s not 1979, sorry t hat woul d have been 19... I was 48

AM: I t ri ed t o get back i nt o t eachi ng, but i t was st i l l

banned i n 1978 so I spent about t hree years so t hat woul d have been, 19 begi nni ng of 1982, I‟d say. Ya so I cam e back t o Durban i n 1982, l ooki ng for a j ob. And i t was qui t e di spi ri t i ng, and t hen qui t e by chance, S t ri ni , m y husband and I bum ped i nt o C hri s Ni chol son, who i s now a j udge. som eone we‟d known, sorry. DS : S peak up. And, you know,

AM: Okay and wel l he general l y asked us what t he bot h us were doi ng and, I t hi nk, we gave hi m t hi s st o ry of our woes et cet era. And he sai d "l i st en i f you And can go and l earn t o t ype, I‟l l offer you a j ob.

i f you‟d l i ke t o do som e adm i ni st rat i ve work for m e, I can offer you a j ob." And he t ol d m e about t he

Legal R esources C ent re t hat he had al ready st art ed set t i ng up, but i t was goi ng t o be form erl y l aunched i n March. S o any j ob was bet t er t han no j ob. I j ust t hought t hat I woul d use t hat , t ake i t , and t hen see where I coul d m ove on. But I‟m st i l l wi t h t he Legal R esources C ent re, t went y years l at er. And so I went t o l earn t o t ype, and I m ust have been t he worl d‟s worst t ypi st . And t hen I got to gri ps wi t h

adm i ni st rat i on work and event ual l y I st art ed doi ng paral egal work and t hat ‟s basi cal l y what I‟m st i l l doi ng at t he Legal R esources C ent re. DS : Okay so aft er t he, can I pause?

R EC OR DING INTER R UP TED ON R ES UMP TION DS : W e are back i f I m ay ask i n t he 80's, or when you st art ed worki ng at t he Legal R esources C ent re, so di d you cont i nue wi t h your pol i t i cal act i vi sm ? AM: Oh ya, I di d. I t hi nk whi l e i n p ri son I read about

t he form at i on of AZAP O and I recogni sed i t for 49

what

is

was

as

a

cont i nuat i on

of

t he

Bl ack

C onsci ousness Movem ent . And I t hi nk whi l e I was banned I read qui t e a bi t about t he way i t t hought . And I t hi nk for m e i t si gni fi ed t hat t he Movem ent had changed som ewhat . That , you know, where we‟d sai d t he begi nni ng wi t h spoken a l ot about t he doi ng away of psychol ogi cal oppressi on and so on, whi ch I t hi nk was i m port ant , sel f -hel p et cet era. The di fference of t he wi t h AZAP O was t hat i t was t al k i ng m ore openl y about soci al i sm , whi ch i s

som et hi ng I t hi nk we had sort of al l uded t o i n t he earl i er days, we had spoken about com m unal i sm we had l ooked at Afri can com m unal i sm . t hi nk P eopl e t hi ngs were were m uch m ore But here I defi ned. sci ent i fi c

cl earl y about

act ual l y

t al ki ng

soci al i sm and what i t m eant .

S o when we cam e

back t o Durban, I was i nt roduced t o AZAP O and I t hought t hat t he organi sat i on was m y pol i t i cal hom e so I becam e a m em ber of t he Durban branch of AZAP O. And I t hi nk i t was very di fferen t from

worki ng wi t h t he Bl ack C onsci ousness Movem ent s of t he past . Basi cal l y t he peopl e were younger, very i nt el l ect ual l y i ncl i ned, l ot s of fi erce i nt el l ect ual di scussi ons and debat es. And for m e, t he one

di fference was t hat where i s i n t he past peopl e basi cal l y worked t oget her as a t eam and real l y t hought about power. You know power wi t hi n an

organi sat i on t here was t hat ki nd of a cert ai n ki nd of l ust for power wi t hi n t he organi sat i on. Movem ent . W hi ch

di fferent i at ed AZAP O for m e, from t he ol d BC I‟m no t sayi ng t hat t hose t hi ngs are negat i vel y bad I‟m j ust t ryi ng t o focus on t he ki nd of di fferences. I was gl ad t hat , at l east , t here was a 50

m ovem ent t here t o rel at e t o.

And t o sort of, you

know, act around t he i ssues of t he day, but I t hi nk what I m i ssed, was t he ki nd of i nvol vem ent wi t h t he com m uni t y. W hi l e I appreci at ed al l t he ki nd of

i nt el l ect ual debat es I t hi nk t hey are necessary for any organi sat i on. S om et i m es I got a feel i ng t hat

peopl e were rat her fi x at ed on t he i dea of bei ng i nt el l ect ual s, for t h e sake of i nt el l ect ual i sm and t hat can be very st eri l e for any m ovem ent . I t hi nk t hat

has happened i n cert ai n i ndi vi dual s woul d cl ai m t hat t hey were t he persons who real l y underst ood Bl ack C onsci ousness and t hat t he rest of us di dn‟t real l y know what i t m eant . And t hat , for m e t hat And I t hi nk

was personal l y very di sappoi nt i ng.

what real l y s t ruck m e t o was t he posi t i on of wom en. S ure t here were wom en wi t hi n AZAP O, but t hey weren‟t as m any wom en as before and t hey di dn‟t real l y part i ci pat e t hat m uch i n d ebat e. S ure t hey at t ended m eet i ngs et cet era but t hey di dn‟t vocal i se and art i cul at e t hei r sent i m ent s. As I t hi nk m em bers of t he previ ous generat i on of t he Bl ack

C onsci ousness Movem ent had done. basi c gui di ng phi l osophy was

However, t he st i l l Bl ack

C onsci ousness and for m e t hat was i m port ant and t here were som e very good peopl e t hat I had encount ered wi t hi n t he Movem ent . But I do t hi nk

t hat i n a sense t hat t he, t he em phasi se on t oo m uch of debat e has caused t he spl i nt eri ng wi t hi n t he Movem ent I t hi nk yo u do know about t hat . W e now have AZAP O and t he S oci al i st P art y of AZANIA, and I t hi nk, one of t he m ani fest at i ons of t hat l ust for power t hat I have spoken about i s, i s t he spl i t wi t hi n AZAP O. You know, for a l ong t i m e we 51

debat ed whet her we shoul d part i ci pat e i n, you know, di scussi ons wi t h t he governm ent and so on. S om e

peopl e fel t t hat we shoul d ot hers fel t t hat we shoul dn‟t and I t hi nk t here were a l ot del ayi ng t act i cs used. Mai nl y because peopl e were j ockeyi ng for posi t i ons. I t hi nk one of t he m ost di sappoi nt i ng t hi ngs for m e has been t he ret urn of t he BC ex i l es. Many of us l ooked forward t o t he ret urn, I t hi nk, t he i dea was t hat we woul d al l work t oget her but I t hi nk t here was a cl ear desi re on t he part of t he ex i l es t o act ual l y t ake over t he Movem ent and t hat has happened. Because at t he l ast conference t hat I

at t ended a few years ago, I m ean t here were act ual l y cri t i ci sm s of t he peopl e who ex pressed part i cul ar poi nt s of vi ew and st at em ent s l i ke "we m ust

ex orci se, we m ust purge t he organi sat i on of t hese revi si oni st s" Now t hat ‟s sounds l i ke som et hi ng out of S t al i ni st R ussi a. real l y have a, I S o ya t hat was a hel l of a At t he m om ent , I don‟t real l y bel ong to an don‟t di sappoi nt m ent t o m e. organi sat i on. want to be

Because I t hi nk I‟ve deci ded t hat I part of an organi sat i on t hat is

di sci pl i ned, t hat i s cl ear about where i t ‟s goi ng and t hat ‟s not goi ng t o engage i n endl ess debat es t hat don‟t m at eri al i se i n anyt hi ng effect i ve. And I sound rat her a t rai t or t o m y Movem ent but I t hi nk I have t he ri ght t o be cri t i cal about i t and I do say t hat openl y t o who ever I m eet . DS : If I m ay ask whi ch i ndi vi dual s have i nfl uenced your pol i t i cal t hi nki ng? AM: You m ean wi t hi n t he Movem ent . DS : Ya, or i n general i n bot h?

52

AM: I t hi nk m ost , m ost peopl e, I t hi nk, one of t he m ost obvi ousl y t here has been S t eve, t here‟s been S t ri ni , t here‟s been Mam phel a. I t hi nk I have al ways

adm i red Vuyi because she was so fi erce and st rong and brave. Mi nd you aft er she qual i fi ed as a doct or she di dn‟t engage wi t h t he Movem ent and we ra t her l ost cont act . But I al ways rem em ber her t hen she,

she was our Ant i gone. S he, you know, i n one of our product i ons was Ant i gone, whi ch was an adapt at i on of t hat pl ay whi ch was based around resi st ance. It was t he TEC ON product i on. And she t ook t he l ead rol e of Ant i gone, and i n a sense, I t hi nk t hat rol e sym bol i sed who she was. S he was very st rong and And t hen l i ke Debs

qui t e cl ear about what she st ood for. t here have been al so ot her peopl e

Mat shoba, she i s st i l l around, and t here‟s Nom si si Krai , who d i ed. S he was al so a very powerful fi gure. And I t hi nk t hat ‟s, I t hi nk ya qui t e a num ber of wom en have i m pact ed on m e because of t hei r fearl essness and credi bi l i t y t o st and up and speak and say t hi ngs out ri ght . DS : Okay whi ch wri t ers have i m pact ed on you?

AM: W el l I t hi nk Franz Fanon, " W ret ched of t he Eart h ", whi ch I need t o read agai n. t hat The S AS O newsl et t er

al ways cont ai ned " I wri t e what I l i ke ", whi ch

was wri t t en by S t eve t hat ‟s al so pl ayed qui t e an i m port ant rol e. And t here have been any num ber of books, qui t e a num ber by bl ack Am eri can aut hors. P eopl e who were, l i ke J am es Bal dwi n who‟s been cri t i ci z ed, l at el y. I‟d say ya, I can‟t nam e al l of t hem . Oh ya, Mal col m X. It ‟s di ffi cul t t o rem em ber al l t he books. I wasn‟t prepared for t hat ki nd of

53

quest i on.

Ya Mal col m X‟s bi ography was qui t e

m ovi ng readi ng but I t hi nk Franz Fanon‟s i s... DS : Your favouri t e? P aul o Frere on t he " P edagogy of t he Oppressed .” Oh wel l , basi cal l y anci ent books, hey, but I t hi nk t hey have got t o be brought back because t hey st i l l say very val uabl e t hi ngs. DS : The unbanni ng of t he pol i t i cal organi sat i ons what has t hat m eant t o you? AM: I t hi nk i n one way i t ‟s been a bi g di sappoi nt m ent . I‟ve al ways I t hi nk I sai d earl i er t hat we‟ve al ways as t he Bl ack C onsci ousness Movem ent seen

AM: Ya, and " Bl ack S ki ns W hi t e Masks ", and t here was

oursel ves as part of a bi gger Li berat i on Movem ent . And one of t he dream s we had was t o si t wi t h al l t he ot her l i berat i on m ovem ent s and work out som et hi ng for t he count ry. W e fel t t hat , t hat needed t o happen st ri ct l y wi t hi n t he bl ack com m uni t y fi rst , and t hat t he bl ack com m uni t y, t hrough i t s represent at i ve organi sat i on shoul d be l ayi ng t he cards out t o t he ot her si de com posed of t he vari ous i nt erest ed

part i es and not t he ot her way around. My personal feel i ng i s t hat t he 1990 banni ngs were t he out com e of negot i at i ons t hat had been arranged before. If

you l ook at al l t hose t ri ps t hat vari ous part i es m ade, bi g busi ness, peopl e l i ke Van Zyl S l abbert and com pany t aki ng i ni t i at i ves, arrangi ng m eet i ngs i n Dakar and so on. Those were al l pri or m eet i ngs t o what t ranspi red i n 1990, and I t hi nk, t he real powers i nt ernat i onal and m aybe l ocal , had al ready deci ded t hat t hi ngs had t o be changed i n S out h Afri ca. And, i n a sense, t he i m pul se for t he si t uat i on di dn't com e so m uch from us. Oh I know, t here were l ot s of 54

dem onst rat i ons and m archi ngs et cet era but i n t he end, I t hi nk, where we are t oday i s a resul t of what was deci ded by t he bi g powers, powers out si de of S out h Afri ca. And I‟m not sure t hat t he

arrange m ent i s t o t he benefi t of t he S out h Afri can C om m uni t y. W hi ch i s m aki ng qui t e a seri ous

accusat i on but our governm ent i s not real l y t he i nst rum ent of power i n t hi s count ry but m ay act ual l y be an agent for forces m uch m ore powerful and st ronger t han us i nt ernat i onal capi t al . DS : Okay, i f I m ay ask why do t hi nk t he Nat i onal P art y has agreed t o a negot i at ed set t l em ent ? AM: W hy has i t ? DS : Ya, why has i t ? l i st en m y dears we can‟t carry on wi t h grand ol d apart hei d as before we are not get t i ng t he necessary profi t s. W e have got t o t ry new m et hods of capi t al accum ul at i on so we have got t o est abl i sh a new ki nd of arrangem ent where we get bl ack peopl e in AM: I don‟t t hi nk t he Nat i onal P art y was al so t ol d "l ook

governm ent ." And of course bl ack peopl e are gi ven cert ai n powers et cet era. But ul t i m at el y t he

arrangem ent s t hat wi l l real l y benefi t us wi l l be defi ned by us and I t hi nk we can see i t t oday. I

t hi nk t hi s count ry for ex am pl e needs t o defi ne a ki nd of soci al i st program m e of devel opm ent but we are headi ng rat her t he opposi t e way. W e are

rel ax i ng Ex change C ont rol s; we are l i beral i si ng a whol e l ot of arrangem ent s so t hat i nt ernat i onal capi t al can i nvest i n here wi t h m ost of t he benefi t s goi ng t o t hem . If you read about t he arm s deal , for ex am pl e, as an ex am pl e of t hat ki nd of arrangem ent , you wi l l see t hat i t i s out si de powers who benefi t 55

m ore.

Out si de m ul t i -nat i onal s who benefi t m ore

t han t he count ry i t sel f does, and t hen al l t hat t al k about so m any j obs bei ng creat ed et cet era have not com e t o frui t i on. And , I t hi nk, we t he st at i st i cs i n

S out h Afri ca t he si t uat i on i t sel f speaks for i t sel f t here i s growi ng unem pl oym ent , t here i s a bi gger gap bet ween t he ri ch and t he poor. W e‟ve seen a I

new ki nd of apart hei d com i ng i nt o ex i st ence.

m ean i f you l ook at Durban and J ohannesburg, we fi nd t hat t he cent ral busi ness di st ri ct s are col l apsi ng because busi ness has m oved out , m ai nl y whi t e busi ness t hey have m oved out . And at t ract ed ot her ki nds of busi ness t o t hese huge m al l s, whi ch benefi t m ai nl y, whi t e busi nesses. Th en you see al l t hese

new resi dent i al com pl ex es com i ng about whi ch are occupi ed by very ri ch peopl e. And t hey're wal l ed and have securi t y guards, so i t ‟s j ust l i ke a whi t e l aager has m oved out of areas i t occupi ed before. And t hey have m oved i nt o, wel l i f you t ake Fl ori da R oad for ex am pl e, i f you go out si de of Durban Nort h you‟l l see ex am pl es of what I am t al ki ng about . And t hen a l ot of t hese pl aces are so ex pensi ve t hat ‟s i t ‟s onl y t hose who have m oney and j obs can l i ve t here. S o we are l ooki ng at a new ki nd of apart hei d t hat ‟s what I say. And i f you l ook at

t he areas where m oney shoul d be real l y pum ped i n t here i s not hi ng, t here i s very l i t t l e happeni ng. DS : Okay, i f I m ay ask, you can correct m e i f I‟m wrong, as t hi s i nt ervi ew progresses I can see t hat you are gender sensi t i ve or shoul d I say you are fem i ni st , especi al l y because of your badge or what ever. Do

you t hi nk t he governm ent has addressed gender i ssues adequat el y? 56

AM: Let ‟s see, we have got wonderful l aws i n pl ace for wom en. W e have a wonderf ul C onst i t ut i on but t hat appl i es t o everyt hi ng el se. I m ean al l ki nds of soci oeconom i c ri ght s, and ri ght s for wom en; we‟ve had any num ber of progressi ve l aws but you t he i m pl i cat i ons of al l t hat m eans t hat you have t o have your necessary i nfrast ruct ure. t o m ake t hose t hi ngs work. You have t o gi ve And I t hi nk t hat ‟s

resources, fi nanci al resources, al l ki nds of resources where t he governm ent ‟s pl ans fal l short , and I t hi nk i f t here i s a real com m i t m ent t o change on behal f of wom en t hen t hose t hi ngs have t o happen. fi nd a body l i ke t he C om m i ssi on for But we Gender

Equal i t y com pl ai ni ng t hat t hey don‟t have suffi ci ent resources t o carry out t hei r work. i ndi cat or for m e, about t he S o I t hi nk an governm ent 's

com m i t m ent , woul d be i f i t real l y l ooked at what t hese i nst i t ut i ons need; t he ki nd of t rai ni ng t hat peopl e need; and suppl y t he m oney for t hat t o happen. That woul d be an i ndi cat or of its

com m i t m ent but we are not seei ng t hat happeni ng. If you t ake t he m ai nt enance l aws, for ex am pl e, t hey have been changed , and t hey are qui t e good. But

you act ual l y need t rai ni ng for m agi st rat es so t hat t hey know t hat t here‟s t he l aws have changed and t hat t hey can‟t sort of have t he sam e at t i t ude t owards wom en, t hat ‟s not happeni ng. And t here‟s

al so, i f you l ook at t he m ai nt enance l aws, t hey al so propose to have i nvest i gat ors to l ook for t he recal ci t rant spouses but t hat ‟s not abl e t o t ake off because t here aren‟t enough resources gi ven over i n budget s for t hat t o happen. S o ya, rhet ori c i s al l

very wel l but t hey have t o be m at ched by act i on and, 57

I t hi nk, one of t he i m port ant act i ons woul d be resources of al l ki nds. DS : If I m ay ask, t he rol e of wom en i n parl i am ent i s i t , does i t have an i m pact on t he com m uni t y, at l arge? AM: Ya, I don‟t want to be hard on wom en in

governm ent because, I t hi nk, i n one sense, i t i s a new i nst i t ut i on for t hem . And l et ‟s face i t t he

governm ent i s a very m al e i nst i t ut i on. And I t hi nk i t ‟s been very hard for m any wom en who are t here, for wom en t o do t he t hi ngs t hat t hey‟d l i ke t o do. And I‟m t al ki ng about t hi s from t he ex peri ence of som e wom en who deci ded t o resi gn because t hey‟ve had a very di ffi cul t t i m e. S om e of t hem have been qui t e effect i ve i n act ual l y get t i ng cert ai n l aws changed. Li ke i f you l ook at t he New Mai nt enance Act , t he Dom est i c Vi ol ence Act t hat has been t he resul t of a l ot of effort t hat has been put i nt o changi ng t he l aws by wom en parl i am ent ari ans. But i t 's com e at a great cost , because i n get t i ng som e of t he l aws pas sed, t hey‟ve had t o be cri t i cal of t hei r own part i es. An d, I t hi nk, anyone who‟s cri t i cal of t hei r own part y has a di ffi cul t t i m e but I t hi nk i f you‟re a wom an and you cri t i cal of your own part y i t ‟s even worse. S o ya, I t hi nk I want t o l ook at i t t hat way. I t hi nk, Governm ent as an i nst i t ut i on has t o be m ade m ore wom en -fri endl y. I do bel i eve t hey have chi l dcare faci l i t i es but t hat has t o t he wom en have had t o fi ght for t hat . t hi ngs t hey are i m port ant . Those m ay seem pal t ry I want t o bel i eve t hat

m ost of t he wom en have m ade an effort . But I don‟t t hi nk i t ‟ s t rue of al l wom en and som et i m es t here i s a debat e about whet her you want wom en t o onl y address wom en‟s i ssues, and whet her you know you 58

don‟t want t hem t o be abl e t o engage i n everyt hi ng. I m ean t hat ‟s a cri t i cal quest i on I t hi nk wom en shoul d be abl e t o part i ci pat e i n anyt hi ng, but I t hi nk i n t hi s m om ent i n our hi st ory al ongsi de wi t h t hat you al so want to focus on wom en‟s i ssues.

W herever you are l ocat ed because t he posi t i on of ordi nary wom en needs t hat ki nd of com m i t m ent . DS : Okay I heard t hat you‟ve g ot a publ i cat i on nam ed AGENDA, woul d you l i ke t o t el l us about t hat ? AM: Okay t here i s a fem i ni st publ i cat i on AGENDA

whi ch i s Durban -based and I t hi nk whi ch we shoul d be very proud of because I t hi nk i t ‟s act ual l y t he onl y fem i ni st j ournal goi ng m aybe i n S out hern Afri ca. we've It ‟s very, i t ‟s one of t he very few fem i ni st been abl e to di scover t hat . So I‟m

j ournal s produced even t hrough t he whol e of Afri ca

part i cul arl y proud t o be on t hat .

I serve on i t s

board and I‟m on i t s edi t ori al advi sory com m i t t ee. And I t hi nk I am part i cul arl y happy about som e of t he t hi ngs we have been abl e t o achi eve. At one

t i m e AGENDA was seen t o be a j ournal m ai nl y for whi t e fem i ni st s and i t was dom i nat ed by whi t e wom en wri t ers but we have been abl e t o change t hat and t o get qui t e a num ber of bl ack wom en wri t ers especi al l y young bl ack wom en wri t ers t o wri t e for AGENDA . woul d And I t hi nk t hat ‟s a bi g achi evem ent I l i ke to see m ore j ournal s and

act ual l y

publ i cat i ons l i ke AGENDA because I don‟t t hi nk one j ournal i s suffi ci ent , g i ven t hat t here‟s so m any wom en i n S out h Afri ca. DS : Okay I j ust want t o ask about Um t apo, yes can you t el l us what i t i s and al l of t hat ?

59

AM: Oh

okay,

Um t apo

woul d

defi ne

i t sel f

as

a

com m uni t y servi ce organi z at i on. It carri es out qui t e a num ber of t rai ni ng program m es ai m ed at t he yout h and wom en. And I t hi nk i t s em phasi s i s on sel f -

rel i ance and sel f -devel opm ent so i t sort of ex presses t he et hos of t he Bl ack C onsci ousness Movem ent . It ‟s had a W om en and Devel opm ent course, whi ch has becom e very popul ar ove r t he years and I t hi nk part of i t s success i s t hat i t i s very m obi l e. The

course can be t aken from Durban t o any pl ace. W e‟ve had an ex t rem el y good faci l i t at or, Oshadi Mangena who‟s real l y som eone you m i ght i nt ervi ew, at som e st age. Ya, and I t hi nk i t s had i t s i m pact

because we have seen bot h yout h and wom en i n vari ous areas set t i ng up t hei r own proj ect s as a resul t of t he ki nd of t rai ni ng t hey‟ve gone t hrough. I m ust poi nt out t hat Um t apo cam e about aft er som e of us broke away from t he l ocal branch of AZAP O. DS : C an we pause?

R EC OR DING INTER R UP TED R ES UMP TION ON S IDE B DS : W e are back. Um t apo? AM: Ya, you know l i ke I sai d Um t apo cam e about because som e of us coul dn‟t cont i nue worki ng wi t h t he l ocal branch of AZAP O. And I t hi nk t hat ‟s Yes you were st i l l t el l i ng us about

part l y because of t hat ki nd of i nt ense focus on, you know, “I‟m a bet t er i nt el l ect ual t han you are” phenom enon t hat was pret t y ri fe i n AZAP O. But I

t hi nk t he break was necessary because basi cal l y not hi ng was com i ng t hrough our i nvol v em ent i n AZAP O, at t hat st age, i t has been several years now. And Um t apo has act ual l y achi eved qui t e a l ot 60

because I t hi nk agai n i t s focus has been on t he com m uni t y, whi ch I t hi nk has al ways been general l y a focus of t he Bl ack C onsci ousness Movem ent . Your words m ust be m at ched by your deeds. And i f you have t oo m uch of t he one, wi t hout t he ot her, t hen i t ‟s poi nt l ess. DS : Okay now we wi l l focus on t he TR C i ssue. I j ust

want t o fi nd out from you whet her you subm i t t ed any t est i m ony t o t he TR C ? AM: No I d i dn‟t . DS : Okay. How do you vi ew t he TR C basi cal l y?

AM: General l y? DS : Yes. AM: I m y general vi ew was t hat t he TR C di dn‟t real l y benefi t t he peopl e it shoul d have benefi t ed.

Basi cal l y t he bl ack com m uni t y and t hat i t was real l y t here for whi t e peopl e. One t hi ng t hat ‟s I‟m very cyni cal about i s about how t he whol e process has general l y has been m anaged by whi t e peopl e. whi t e who real l y of t he had, di dn‟t as real l y a l ot know of I t he

m ean I have seen C om m i ssi oners who were basi cal l y

i nt ri caci es

st ruggl e

bl ack

com m uni t i es di d. And t o m e t he m ost st ri ki ng t hi ng i s t hi s whol e t hi ng of am nest y. A l ot of peopl e have l i t eral l y got t en away wi t h m urder. And have been

al l owed t o do so t hrough a ki nd of l egal i sed i nst i t ut i on l i ke t he TR C . I know peopl e have sai d

t hat i t 's used t o heal t he nat i on but m y personal vi ew i s t hat a l ot of peopl e act ual l y cam e t o accept – wel l , not accept , reconci l e t hem sel ves wi t h what had happened i n t he past . And woul d have been

qui t e happy t o get on wi t h l i fe t o m ove forward. I don ‟t t hi nk t he TR C was a necessary process and, 61

al l i n al l , I m ean, wi t h t he fact t hat so m any m urderers had been al l owed t o get away wi t h t hi ngs m eans t hat for t he fut ure I j ust don‟t t hi nk i t augers wel l . It m eans t hat peopl e can com m i t t he great est cri m es of hum an ri ght s abuses and t hen at som e st age, l at er st age, t hrough an i nst i t ut i on l i ke t he TR C cl ai m t hat t hey were m ere puppet s or cogs i n a wheel and not responsi bl e for t hei r act i ons. And I

t hi nk m y general i m pressi on i s t hat t he, t he TR C has enabl e d peopl e t o ex onerat e t hem sel ves, t o say t hat t hey weren‟t real l y responsi bl e for what t hey di d. And i t m akes a m ockery of t he ki nds of st ruggl es t hat bl ack peopl e pri ces have t hey engaged have in and to t he

t rem endous l i berat i on. DS :

pai d

at t ai n

Okay, now we have com e t o t he end of our i nt ervi ew but before we fi ni sh t hi s i nt ervi ew I j ust want t o ask you t wo quest i ons. Fi rst l y, l ooki ng back i n your

pol i t i cal hi st ory, your l i fe, i s t here anyt hi ng you woul d have done di fferent l y? AM: Maybe what I woul d ha ve done i s kept a di ary. But act ual l y t hat ‟s not a j oke because when I went recent l y t o t he W om en‟s Day cel ebrat i ons and one t hi ng t hat st ruck m e i s t hat okay t here i s an i m port ant hi st ory behi nd W om en‟s Day. W hat I l i ke about t he one cel ebrat i on was how cert ai n wom en ordi nary wom en were brought t o t he funct i on and you know gi ven due respect et cet era. Ex cept t hat

t he event s seem ed rat her st uck at t hat part i cul ar poi nt when wom en went on t he 9t h August 1956. And i t was t o focused on one part y t he Afri can Nat i onal C ongress. Yet t i m e has m oved on and m any m ore wom en from vari ous pol i t i cal t endenci es, 62

com m uni t i es al l ki nds of organi sat i ons have act ual l y t aken t hi s st ruggl e forward. And I t hi nk we need t o do t hat t o pay respect t o al l wom en and not t o m ake event s and t he creat i on of S out h Afri can hi st ory, wel l , we cert ai nl y shoul dn‟t port ray t hem as a resul t of j ust one pol i t i cal organi sat i on or part . The

pol i t i cal st ruggl e t hi s year has been conduct ed by a range of organi sat i ons and a range of i ndi vi dual s s om e of whom weren‟t even m em bers of any

pol i t i cal organi sat i ons.

And t hen i t st ruck m e t hat

m aybe as som e one who has com e from a di fferent ki nd of organi sat i on I need t o act ual l y go and record som e of t hi s hi st ory of m y m ovem ent , part i cul arl y t he wom en. Because I t hi nk wom en do have a ki nd of di fferent perspect i ve of st ruggl es. They not i ce t hi ngs t hat ot hers don‟t , because I t hi nk when st ruggl es are recorded as hi st ory, you know „hi s st ory‟, t he focuses are al l on powerful l eaders and, you know, m aybe p hi l osophi cal di sagreem ent s about di fferent i ndi vi dual s. But wom en have a great er

sense of t he ki nd of day-t o -day act i vi t i es. The l i t t l e t hi ngs t hat event ual l y com e t o a bi g whol e and real l y m ade a sol i d i m pact on st ruggl es. S o ya, I

t hi nk, i f I had t o, t hen I woul d have kept a di ary whi ch m i ght event ual l y have got t en i nt o t he hands of t he S ecuri t y P ol i ce. But st i l l I wi sh I had recorded t hi ngs i n m uch great er det ai l . I‟m not sure i f I woul d have done t hi ngs m uch di fferent l y I‟m gl ad t hat I part i ci pat ed, I have been part of t hat Movem ent . DS : Okay t he l ast quest i on, j ust t he words of

encouragem ent from you? AM: For? For everyone? 63

DS :

For everyone, for t he yout h, i n part i cul ar.

AM: Ya I t hi nk we m ust al l sort of st art l i st eni ng t o each ot her. You know I m ean I know I have a bi as

t owards part i cul ar i ndi vi dual s and organi sat i ons. But I want t o l i st en t o what peopl e have t o say. And I t hi nk t hat ‟s t he general m essage t hat I want t o gi ve t o anybody t hat we shoul d t al k t o each ot her i rrespect i ve of where we com e from . Irrespect i ve of age, background. Because I t hi nk we j ust work on And I t hi nk i t ‟s t i m e we of our st ereot ypes and But t he basi s of st ereot ypes and prej udi ces and we don‟t real l y know each ot her. broke t hrough som e

m i sconcept i ons.

And I know l i fe i s so hurri ed, so

qui ck, we don‟t real l y have t i m e som et i m es.

i t ‟s about t i m e we m ade t hat ki nd of t i m e. I suppose agai n t hat ‟s som et hi ng t hat ‟s st ruck m e at som e of t he August 9t h cel ebrat i ons. There was som eone t here I real l y adm i re Mi sa Mal anj e I don‟t know i f you know her. But Mi sa i s a fant ast i c person, she doesn‟t j ust focus on peopl e who have becom e i cons and so on she focuses on ordi nary peopl e. You know peopl e who aren‟t real l y t aken i nt o account by m ost of us. But she has got t hat fasci nat i ng abi l i t y t o bri ng t hem out and t o t al k. And t hey bri ng out so m uch t hat you don‟t t hi nk about . DS : Okay, t hat now we have com e t o t he end of our i nt ervi ew. t i m e. AM: You are wel com e and t hank you for gi vi ng m e t he opport uni t y. DS : Thank you. Thank you very m uch, Asha, for your

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