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					                Province of Newfoundland



             FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY
                        OF
                   NEWFOUNDLAND



 Volume XL           Fourth Session                  Number 24



               VERBATIM REPORT
                         {Hansard)




                                                                      ..

               Speaker: Honourable P.]. McNicholas




Wednesday                                             27 April 1988
The House met at 3:00 p.m.                 representat ives of   the  Newman
                                           Estate, and we were successful in
MR. SPEAKER:                               acquiring the property, so as to
Order, please!                             prevent the loss of this heritage
                                           structure.
At this stage I would like to
welcome       to     the       galleries   The    historical    significanc e   of
thirty-eigh t    Level   III    students   these     heritage    structures     is
from Holy Trinity Regional High of         rooted in the very        trade links
Heart's     Content,   and    also   two   that led to       the settlement of
exchange     students    from    Mexico,   Newfound] and.    t am glad that we
Martha Jiminez and Sylvia Robles.          have some students in the gallery
They   at"e   accompanied     by   their   today,    because this is a        real
teachers, Miss Susan Macleod and           piece of history,      and perhaps in
Mr. Albert Legge.                          one    of   the    students'   culture
                                           classes   or whatever, if they have
                                           not     already     investigate d    or
        Statements by Ministers            learned   about the Newman people in
                                           Newfoundlan d, they may be able to
                                           take this back and do a project on
PREMIER PECKFORD:                          it.
Mr. SpeakeL"".
                                           The Newman family, merchants in
MR. SPEAKER:                               Dartmouth, England, from the 1400s
The hon. the Premier.                      brought   their   first    cargo   of
                                           Newfoundlan d   codfish    back    to
PREMIER PECKFORD:                          England in 1589.     Richard   Newman
Mr.  Speaker, I want to make a             established   a   seasonal    trading
statement on a pet peeve of mine           station for dried cod   and general
for about ten years.    On behalf of       merchandise on Pushthrough Island
myself and the hon. John Butt,             as early as 1672.        Pushthrough
minister L""esponsible for heritage        Island is on the South Coast, in
in the Province, I am delighted to         Fortune   Bay   I   guess,    if   my
announce      here     today,     my       geography is right.
government 's plans to complete the
restoration   and refurbishin g of         AN.HON. MEMBER:
the    historic    Newman   Building       Hennitage Bay.
located at Number 1 Springdale
Street, St. John's.                         PREMIER PECKFORD:
                                           Hennitage Bay, which is in Fortune
In 1969, the Newman wine vaults,           .B ay, no?
on Water Street in St. John's,
were     declared    a     provincial      AN HON. MEMBER:
historic site.    In July, 1981, the       They are· separate in many_ respects.
adjacent     Newman   building    was
slated     for    demolition.     The      PREMIER PECKFORD:
building had deteriorate d to the          Separate   in  many   respects.   I
point wheL""e it posed a threat to         guess i t is like   Halls Bay being
public safety.                             in Green Bay.     Halls Bay is a
                                           separate bay,  even though we talk
Upon 1eaL""ning of the demolition          about it as all being part of
order, my government immediately           Green Bay.
entered into negotiation s with the

                                                                                     •'


Ll219     April 27, 1988        Vol XL     No. 24                          R1219
This   was    still    when permanent    T take great pleasure today in
settlements in Newfoundland were         announcing   that a contract has
vigorously suppressed by an Act of       been let to the firm of Titan
Parliament.     In other words, the      Holding Limited in the · amount of
Newman family came here before           $229,133 to complete the interior
they were really allowed to, as          refurbishing    of     the    building.
did most of our ancestors, rightly       When completed, this building will
or wrongly.     By 1679, however, the    house    the     provincial       sports
Newmans' seasonal plantations were       archives, which are now presently
gradually          becoming       more   in the Arts and Culture Centre
permanent.     Also about this time,     here in St. John '.s, and serve as
the Newmans discovered,        through   the     headquarters        for      the
their bartering trade, that their        Newfoundland    and    Labrador     Arts
port wine brought to Newfoundland        Council and the Newfoundland and
in exchange for the cod imported         Labrador Heritage Foundation - two
into Portugal, and stored here as        organizations which are making a
payment,     greatly     improved   in   significant    contribution     to   the
quality.    I t was the Newfoundland     preservation      of     our     unique
weather no doubt.        Consequently,   cultural   and material heritage.
sending  port wine to Newfoundland       The   work   on    the    building    is
to    mature     became    a   regular   scheduled     for     completion      in
practice   carried on right up to        October of this year.
the present day.
                                         Clearly all Newfoundlanders can
In 1700 the House of Newman and          take    great   pride  that   these
Company       established    trading     historic    structures  are   being
stations      at   Harbour   Breton,     preserved for posterity and will
Hermitage Cove, and Gauttois, and        be put to such productive re-use,
by 1800, William Newman was one of       and I take great personal pr-ide in
the largest proper-ty owners here        seeing this histor-ic and cultural
in St. John's.     Tt is most likely     initiative    taken.   Thank   you,
that the Newman wine vaults were         kindly.
establi s hed during this period of
expansion in the 18th century.           SOME HON. MEMBE.RS:
                                         Hear, hear!
The vaults survived the great fire
of 1846, and in 1847 evidence            MR. GULLAGE:
indicates,   Newman   and  Company       Mr. Speaker.
decided to construct the current
   rgian style building that the
Geo_                                     MR. SPEAKER:
government has just saved from           The hon. the member for Waterford
demoll tion.                             - Kenmount.

Restoration work on the exterior         MR. GULLAGE:
of the Newman building has now           Mr.   Speaker,    I   would like  to
been completed - it was started a        commend the Premier and government
number o.f   years ago      and a        for   taking     the   initiative to
derelict    building   has    been       restore   this    important historic
replaced by a f lne Georgian style       building.      It    happens   to be
heritage   structure  which   will       located in a ward I represent in
serve as a landmark for future           council, and I am very familiar
re-development in this area of the       with it.   It lay there pretty well
city.                                    dereLict for a long time, and it.



L1220    April 27, 1988       Vol XL     No. 24                           R1220
is great to see that government             We have the      Heritage    Foundation
has taken a second step with the            right now.
interior    renovations, because
certainly the exterior has been             MR. GUI.I.AGE:
restored quite well.                        I realize that, but funding that
                                            in the past used to come from
We would like to examine the costs          federal    sources,  in particular,
involved in terms of the exterior           seems to be cut off now and we
renovations and look at the cost            have to find other avenues because
overall, if you like, to restore a          the      numbers    of    buildings,
building of this importance.            I   particularly in st. John's, are
say that because, from the point            such     that    we  feel   only   a
of   view     of   histodc     buildings    foundation can he the way to go.
throughout St. John • s, we have a
situation      where    many    of    our   The other point I would like to
historic    sites are in danger of          make is that we wonder whether
being lost because of the lack of           private developers and the private
funds to restore them.       In fact, I     foundat.ion that I speak of, could
can  give some examples right now:          best be doing this sort of woc-k,
The   O'Dwyer property        on    Water   and encourage the private sector
Street    is     in danger of       being   and   a   foundation    to   identify,
demolished because of a lack of             first of all, in co-operation with
funding      to     really,    in    that   councils    and   with     government,
particular      case,   almost    rebuild   sites that are historic, and once
the building because i t is pretty          they are designated, c-ather than
well gone.       But it is of historic      government dollars being spent as.
significance,      and is worthy of         they are in this case, to take the
preservation.                               initiative    to  c-estore buildings
                                            with professional assistance and
Council is also planning to widen           funding assistance from the three
the historic zone West of Adelaide          levels of government involved.
Street, which will take in ' many
more historic       buildings beyond        I   would    1 ike     to   commend   the
the Newman property.        The Newman      government.         It    is    a    good
property is, in fact, the last one          initiative .     The Newman building
as you go West in the designated            is   one   of      the    most   historic
area..   As a matter of fact ·, we          buildings fn the Province and i t
have a plan ready for adoption at           is good to see it being restored.
City    Council     to    extend    the
historic zone Westward.         We are      I  might add before I finish that
faced with a dilemma with historic          the three groups you mentioned to
sites, and T am not just speaking           occupy that building are badly in
of St. John's.      I am speaking of        need    of   proper   space.   The
other areas of    the Province . where      Provincial   Sports Archives,  for
it is necessary to look at the              example, have been complaining for
setting     ~P     of    a     possible     a long time of how crowded their
foundation   and look at avenues of         quarters are, and the other two as
funding not just from a provincial          well.   So it is badly needed from
perspective     but    also    federal,     the perspective of space for these
municipal,     and     from     private     three important groups.
sources.
                                            SOME HON. MEMBERS:
PREMIER PECKFORD :                          Hear, hear!



Ll221     April 27, 1988         Vol XL     No. 24                            Rl221
MR. LONG:                                   FoundatJon are indeed in need of
Mr. Speaker.                                more financial support, not just
                                            the location.
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon . the member for st. John's         With regard to the space that will
East.                                       be created now at the Arts and
                                            Culture    Centre    Gallery,    my
MR. LONG:                                   understanding of what would be
We also welcome the announcement            created as a result of taking the
by the Premier and see it as a              Sports Archives out is that it is
fairly significant initiative on            still not enough.   There are going
the part of the government to play          to be serious problems at the
an active ro~e in the preservation          gallery    until   there     is  an
of     buildings   .of    historic          expansion plan or, in fact _ a plan
                                                                       ,
significance in the city. We also           for a new gallery put in place by
appreciate the tone and even the            the government.
elegance of the statement made by
the Premier today, which reminds            I would also say, when we are
us all of the importance of our             talking about the Sports Archives,
history.                                    that there is a very real problem
                                            not only of space but also in the
We would see it as a positive               preservation of materials at the
initiative, but there is a lot              Provincial     Archives,      in   the
more to be done.       In particular, I     Colonial     Building,     which    is
would have concerns about what              another building of very important
appears to be a rather ad hoc               historical significance.       T would
manner in which · the government            call upon the government · t.o take a
became involved as a result of a            similar   positive     initiative " to
crisis     situation,       where   the     protect    the   materials     in  the
building was going to be lost, and          Colonial Building and also t.o see
ask     a    quest ion      about   t.he    i.f we can get a new location for
government's      relationship     with     the Provincial Archives, given the
City Council       and    indeed  other     government's     stated     commitment
municipalities in        the Province,      today to the preservation of our
and the need to put in place a              legacy. Thank you, Mr. Speaker .
more clearly established mechanism
so    that    the     government - may      SOME HON. MEMBERS:
continue to take such initiatives.          Hear, hear!

I would also say, Mr. · Speaker,            MR. RIDEOUT:
with      reference           to      the   Mr. Speaker.
organizations that are going to be
placed in this new building, that           MR. SPEAKER:
I think it is a_ very positive              The hon. the Minister of Fisheries .
thing.    It     will     give    a  good
profile to these agencies which             MR. RIDEOUT:
ar'e doing good work on behalf of           Mr. Speaker, as I have previously
government.       I,    at    one   time,   stated in this House and on many
worked for the         Provincial Arts      other. occasions, this government
Council,      as      an     information    remains firmly committed to the
officer.    I   would also say that         continued    development    of    a
the   Sports Archives,         the   Arts   commercial    seal    fishery   by
Co.uncil      and       the      Hed tage   landsman hunters in our Province.



Ll222     April 27, 1988        Vol XL      Mo. 24                         Rl222
Our position on the issue has.               Mr. Speaker, in a message I read
remained virtually unchanged since           in this House just last month, I
it was presented to the Malouf               stated that we have seen some very
Commission on seals and sealing in           positive results from our efforts
May of 1985.   We have promoted a            to revitalize the sealing industry
cautious but steady approach to              over the last number of years.
the revitalization of the seal               The harvest of adult seals has
fishery and we continue to stand             increased from approximately 6, 000
by this approach.                            in 1985 to over 40,000 in 198 7.
                                             This increase in harvest has been
The recent renewed efforts been              carried out in a co-ordinated,
perpetuated by a new anti-sealing            hum~e and orderly manner.
group against our sealing industry
clearly    indicate     the    need    to    The   reason     for    the    successful
tailor our present operation in              increase in our     adult seal harvest
such a way as to regain market               stems        largely        from       the
acceptance.     This government does         co-operation          between         this
not feel that the time is right to           government      and      the     Canadian
renew   a     war    of     words     and    Sealers      Association       and     the
propaganda with the various animal           Northeast           Coast          Sealers
rights groups.     Tt would only play        Co-operative.      Since the inception
into their hands and give them the           of      the       Canadian         Sealers
stage they so desperately desire             Association      in    1982     we    have
in   order    to   carry     out    their    financially         supported         this
anti-sealing campaigns.         However,     organization in its efforts to
Mr. Speaker, we will not willin~1y           preserve, promote and protect the
abandon     our    people      to     the    sealing industry.         We have also
blackmail     tactics     of    such    a    provided    technical and financial
lunatic     fringe    who     wish     to'   assistance to t.he Northeast Coast
characterize us as barbarians and            Coast Sealers Co-op since i 1:. was
who are attempting, once again, to           formed in 1986.
inflict economic genocide on our
rural economy and our rural people.          A $200,000 · loan       guarantee   was
                                             issued to the Co-op in      1986 and an
SOME HON. MEMBERS:                           additional guarantee of $500,000
Hear, hear!                                  was   provid_ed   by    government   in
                                             1987.    This year the Co-op         is
MR. RIDEOUT:                                 projecting a purchase of 20,000
As   a   government     we   will  do        seat pelts to be used for·fur and
whatever    has   to be done,      in        leather    sales.      Initially    the
co-operation and consultation with           Co-op's   leather     production    was
the    sealers    and    the  sealing        sold   to   only    one    tannery   in
indu~try   of    this   Province,  to        Ontario.   The Co-op     has increased
protect our rural way of life,               interest in coun~ries outside of
including the wise use of all our            Canada, including Morocco, Italy,
resources, which includes seals.             Finland    and    Hong     Kong.    The
Additionally, we will be calling             Sealers Co-op      is now confident
on   our   nation's    government  to        that    initial    sales     to   these
protect         sealers       against        countries can be     followed up with
harrassment     from    the   protest        larger orders.
groups as they pursue a legitimate
liveihood.                                   Mr.    Speaker,   it       is     through
                                             initiatives     such        as      those



Ll223     April 27, 1988         Vol XL      No. 24                            Rl223
undertaken by the Northeast Coast           commitment is reiterated time and
Sealers Co-op that the future of            again through the actions of the
the    sealing      industry      rests.    government by providing technical
Therefore,   I am very pleased to           and financial assistance to both
announce    today    that    government     the Canadian Sealers Asso·ciat.ion
will    be    extending     the      loan   and the Northeast Coast Sealers
guarantees      of     $200,000       and   Co-op.   Never let it be said that.
$500,000   for a further period to          this   gove~nment  has   not  come
expire December 31, 1988 subject            through on its promises to develop
to the same terms and conditions,           a revitalized sealing industry in
as    was    previously     on     those    the Province.
guarantees,   with the Co-op being
required to place a nominee of the          I  am convinced that our approach
Minister of Fisheries on its Board          to      the       development       and
of Directors.       This will ensure        revitalization     of    our    sealing
that    an   even     closer     working    industry     has   been    the    right
relationship will develop between           approach.     While we s.ee no net
the Co-op and this government.              gain in a war of words through the
Also, government has authorized a           media    with    those    anti-sealing
$35,000 g~ant to the Co-op payable          groups who appear upon our shores
out of my department's 1988 - 1989          from time to time, we shall not be
budget to defray interest costs on          deterred in our determination to
the Co-op's operating line.         I am    protect and to support our sealing
also pleased to announce today              industry.     Our record speaks for
that an additional $175,000 loan            itself.   The sealing industry is
guarantee will be authorized for            on the road to recovery and even
the Sealers Co-op under the same            though this steady ~nd cautious
tenns and conditions as the other           approach    towards   rebuilding our
two     guarantees.        This       new   industry may not · always achieve
guarantee will be released to the           results    as    quickly     as   many,
Co-op by the Minister of Finance            i~cluding    myself, would like, I
as required, in consultation with           stand behind our policy and feel
the Ministers of Development. and           it -is the best chance for a truly
Tourism and Fisheries.      This means      revitalized      long-term      sealing
that    our    government      is     now   industry     for   Newfoundland     and
standing behind the activities of           Labrador.
the    Northeast      Coast      Sealers
Co-operative     to    the    tune     of   SOME HON. MEMBERS:
$875,000,    in    addition     to    our   Hear, hear!
interest      subsidy      on      their
operating line of credit.                   MR. W. CARTER:
                                            r1r. Speaker.
PREMIER PECKFORD:
And that is not cucumbers.                  MR. SPEAKER:
                                            The    hon.      the    member      for
MR. RIDEOUT:                                Twillingate.
And that is not cucumbers.
                                            MR. W. CARTER:
Mr. Speaker, as I have said many            I thank the minister, Mr. Speaker,
times,   this   government    remains       for giving me an advance copy of
committed to the ~evitalization of          his statement, but I must say I am
the     sealing      in~ustry      in       not    too   impressed  with   its
Newfoundland and Labrador.       This       contents.  The Premier interjected



Ll224     April 27, 1988        Vol XL      No. 24                           Rl224
during the final few paragraphs of     (Inaudible) loan guarantee.
the statement by saying 'that is
not cucumbers. '   Mr. Speaker, all    MR. W. CARTER:
I can say is i t is too bad i t is     Let us assume, then, they are.
not cucumbers, when we have a          The statement is not very clear.
government that is more interested     But, Mr. Speaker, the fact remains
in putting $14 million or $15          the Northeast Coast Sealer's Co-op
million in growing cucumbers, and      is doing a job that the government
then get up and boast about the        itself     should   be   doing.     Of
fact     that   they   are   putting   course, back a few years ago, when
$875,000    into one of our most       the sealing industry, . that once
tradi tiona! industries.   I do not    grel!l_ and thriving and tradi tiona!
                                             t
consider that,     Mr.  Speaker,  as   industry was going down for the
being too much to boast about.         third time, we saw a group of
                                       Newfoundlan d inshore fishermen, in
Now, what the minister has done        fact about four hundred, who wet"e
today, and I am not downgrading or     willing     to  invest  a   total   of
demeaning the minister, I think        $120,000 in that industry.        They
the Co-op could use the $175,000       had enough faith in the sealing
that is being made available, and      industry to      invest $120,000 of
they can certainly use the $35,000     their own money.
interest write-off grant, because
what the minister has being doing      My understandi ng of it: ls that
over the years is saddling the         that   Co-op  is   now    in   serious
Sealer's Co-op with an unbearable      financial trouble.      Mr.   Speaker,
debt load.                             the  minister    shakes    his   head.
                                       Well, I have it from    a reasonably
MR. RIDEOUT:                           good authority that that Co-op is
We are paying it .                     now in serious trouble ·and this
                                       will    do   very    little     toward
MR. W. CARTER:                         alleviating some of     the problems
No, you are not paying it.    You      that they are going to be facing.
are    paying    $35,000   toward
interest, Mr. Speaker, that this       Mr. Speaker, the minister makes
year will be in the vicinity ' of      reference to the harassment on the
$50,000 balance.                       part   of    the  new    conservatio n
                                       group,    Internation al     Wildlife
Mr.   Speaker,    the  East   Coast    Federation I     believe they call
Sealer's Co-op is in debt to the       themselves -
government     for    approximate ly
$875,000.   10 per cent of that        AN HOM. MEMBER:
would be $80-odd thousand dollars      Coalition.
interest.   The government is now
paying $35,000, I gather.              MR. W. CARTER:
                                                                                ..
                                                                                i
                                                                                     .'
                                       Coalition, yes .
MR. RIDEOUT:
No.                                    T was      surprised   in   Committee
                                       yesterday     when   the     minister
MR. W. CARTER:                         replying to a quest ion that. was
Oh?   The statement says     $35,000   put   to   him   by  myself   or my
will be made available.                colleague,    maybe,  for   Port   de
                                       Grave, was unable to table copies
MR. RIDEOUT:                           of any corresponde nce that were



Ll225    April 27, 1988      Vol XL    No. 24                         R1225
dispatched       to    his     federal      and the fact that he was denying
counterpart when it was fl~st made          them their bread and butter was of
known to the minister that that             no interest whatever to him.            I
group,     these    publicity-hungry,       would suggest to the minister, Mr.
dubious types were coming in here           Speaker, that he let his federal
to disrupt the seal fishery.      When      counterpart know ih n~ uncertain
the minister was f l~st made aware          terms that Newfoundlanders are not
of their intended vtsit, he did             going to stand by this tlme and
not make any written presentation           allow these scoundrels to come in
to     his     federal     counterpart      here     and,        for    questionable
objecting to thet~ being issued a           motives,      der:tY      Newfoundlanders
permit.                                     their right to pursue an industry
                                            that- has been, I suppose, in this
Now, we all know that as a result           Province now, and country, for the
of a ~ecent ruling of the Supreme           past   300    or      400   years.    The
Court, the Appeal Court, that the           minister, Mr. Speaker, should make
Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Sidden)          that fact known to his federal
in Ottawa has no choice but to              counterpart.
make a permit available. However,
a condition of that permit, Mr.             SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Speaker, is that a fishery officer          Hear, hear!
be   required   to  travel   to   the
icefields,      accompanying      the       MR. FENWICK:
group.    I  would suggest to the           Mr. Speaker.
minister that maybe therein lies
the   answer.    Becau~e   surely   a       MR. SPEAKER:
government    that   is  unable    to       The han. the member for Menihek.
provide sufficient surveillance of
our salmon rivers would not dare            MR. FENWICK:
make fishery officers available to          Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
babysit or to accompany a group of
people whose sole objective in              I  believe that the policy this
life is to destroy a traditional            government is following is wrong,
industry in this Province.                  and I believe that the policy the
                                            federal government is following is
SOME HON. MEMBERS:                          wrong, as well.     Mr. Speaker, we
Hear, hear!                                 are in a new era now.    We are not
                                            talking about   humane societies, we
MR. W. CARTER:                              are not talking about the SPCA, we
I said in the House yesterday,          I   are not talking about people whose
could have -                                primary thrust was that they were
                                            looking at baby seals being killed
MR. SPEAKER:                                or they were looking at a hunt
Order, please!                              that they ·felt was somewhat cruel.

MR. W. CARTER:                              Mr.  Speaker,  the enemy now is
Mr. Speaker, may I conclude?                individuals who do not believe
                                            that animals should be used for
I saw on television last week one           human consumption at all.    It does
of the representatives from that            not matter what you use it fo~.
group saying that he did not care           whether   it  is   for   eating   or
at all, he could not care less              whether it is for fur or whet he~
what happened to Newfoundlanders,           it   is   for   flippers   whatever



Ll226    April 27, 1988        Vol XL       No. 24                           Rl226
purpose at all.                       of Torngat Housing, and         Wilfred
                                      Lane, Mayor of Postville.
It is quantitative difference in a
debate that we have had over the      SOME HON. MEMBERS:
last ten years.   It is, I think,     Hear, hear!
what someone once called the new
paganism;   they  are   attributing
souls, attributing human worth to                 Oral Questions
animals, and as a result of that,
Mr. Speaker, we are in a different
kind of fight.                        MR. TULK:
                                      Mr. Speaker.
When the federal government closed
down the whitecoat hunt, concurred    MR. SPEAKER:
in by this provincial government,     The han. the member for Fogo.
it showed a degree of weakness
that is now being exploit~d by        MR. TULK:
this new group that is here.   The    Mr. Speaker, I have a question for
fact of the matter is, you are        the President of Treasury Board
never, ever going to placate them     (Mr. Simms).     T have to say to him
as long as one seal is killed.        that   we    are    relying    on   news
They are not willing to accept        reports rather. than any written
anything   other   than   a  total    statement,     because      T   do    not
cessation of the seal hunt, and ·     believe either the minister or the
when they have finished with that,    President    of    NAPE did,      but   I
Mr . Speaker, they wi 11 go on to     understand this morning that the
continue with other $pecies.          Presi.dent of NAPE called a news
                                      conference to say that he was not
So, I say again, although there       satisfied      with     the     steering
are a few dollars being put in        committee, on pay equity, that it.
there to try to continue on the       does not have a mandate to do the
subsistence hunt, the fact' of the    job.     I    understand      that    the
matter is it is a wrong approach      minister says that is not             the
by this government, and a wrong       case, that it does have a mandate,
approach     by     the    federal    that it does not have to go to
government.  You are going to have    Cabinet    and    that,    indeed,    its
to stand up and fight them . some     recommendation   s are likely to be
day, so you might. as well start      accepted.      Would     the    minister
now!   Thank you very much, Mr.       clarify that situation          for us,
Speaker.                              please?

SOME HON. MEMBERS :                   MR. SPEAKER:
Hear, hear!                           The hon.    the    President    of   the
                                      Council.
MR. RIDEOUT:
The    Socialists    are    finally   MR. SIMMS:
prepared to fight for something.      Mr.. Speaker, I      am delighted to
                                      have the    opportunity to clarify it
MR. SPEAKER:                          and I thank t.he hon. member for
Order, please!                        h i.s question . What he has said is
                                      in fact what T said today.       I did
 I would like to welcome    to the    not    have   a   prepared  statement
.galleries Tony Anderson,   Manager   because T got so many phone calls



Ll227    April 27, 1988     Vol XL    No. 24                            Rl227
from the press I decided just to           implementing pay equity for the
have a press gathering to answer           public  service   for   the  entire
their questions, so I had to rely          Province , and we  are going to do
on the press's interpretation of           it.
what was said. because I·was not at
the press conference held by NAPE          MR. TULK:
either.     I understood, or at least      Mr. Speaker.
my perception of what was being
transmitted to me via the media            -MR. SPEAKER:
led me to think that there must be          The hon. the member for Fogo.
some grave misunderstandings about
what    the    approach   is   that we     MR. TULK:
propose, because clearly we made           Mr. -·speaker, if I understood what.
the same proposal to all other             the hon. gentleman said correctly
participants in other unions, all          in reading from his letter,       I
of whom had no difficulty witb the         think he said that the individuals
approach we were pr.oposing.        Yes,   representing    organizations could
in fact,       I  did say that       the   commit their organizations to a
steering committee does have a             certain process.
mandate.      In fact; the letter I
wrote to the President of NAPE             MR. SIMMS:
yesterday      is  fairly    clear,   at   Sure. ·
least I thought i t was clear.        It
said,    'The steering ccimmi t tee • s    MR. TUI.K:
work will be most significant.        It   I think what we are asking here is
will require that members' - that          where does it go once a commit tee
is,   those : who will be on the           is put together?        What authority
committee, and I asked NAPE to             does the committee have?           What
give me a repre-sentative to put on        mandate does the committee itself
the committee         'have sufficient     have? I think, if the reports are
authority to make decisions on             correct, that is where the dispute
behalf of their organizations at           seems     to    be,     not   in    the
the steering committee level.'        So   individuals having the ability to
it was fairly clear, I thought, in         commit or the power to commit
my letter, but I understand there          their    organizations,     but    what
is a disagreement, perhaps with            happens after it goes past that
the   interpretation      of   what   we   point    and·    you    sit    on   the
propose.     Subsequent to the press       committee?    What mandate does the
briefing I had, I had my officials         committee have?        And I    do not
communicate with NAPE officials to         believe    that    the   minist.er  has
ask them exactly what it was they          addressed that question here yet.
were concerned with and what their
problems were.      But, as I said at      MR. SPEAKER:
the press briefing, if they have           The hon. the President of Council.
some problems, if they have some
disagreement,     then we are more         MR. SIMMS:
than willing to sit down in a              Well, Mr. Speaker, I think I have
co-operative way to work out those         addressed    it.      I  certainly
difficulties, because clearly the          addressed it because I had similar
government's         intention,       as   questions put to me by the press,
enunciated by the Premier in the           again, at the lunch hour press
press    conference     several   weeks    briefing that I held.
ago, is that we are committed to



Ll228     April 27, 1988       Vol XL      No. 24                           Rl228
The    steering    committee,    as   I   A final supplementary.
thought was indicated clearly in
the letter, will be the ones which        MR. TULK:
will    have  the mandate      to put     Mr. Speaker, I must say to the
together all of the details, will         hon. gentleman that I do not want
set out the overall policies and          to '   aggravate    this   situation
guidelines within which pay equity        because we on this side of the
will     be   implemented     in    the   House, .want to see pay equi t.y in
Newfoundland Public Service.       Now,   the public service as well.      But
I   do    not know what could be          let me ask him this question,
clearer than that.     This committee     since the process apparently has
will     have   the   mandate.      The   broken down:     Has he taken any
steering commit tee will not report       steps to get the process back in
to cabinet and it will have the           place?    Does he have a tlme frame
mandate to work out all of the            as to when he wants to see pay
details of how pay equity will be         equity in the public service of
implemented          within         the   this Province?     Does he have a
Newfoundland       Public     Service.    time· frame in his own mind?
Subsequent to that, there would be
subcommittees to deal with each           MR. SPEAKER;
bargaining unit and issues like           The hon.    the     President    of   the
the actual wage adjustments and           Council.
those things would be negotiated.
I   understand that is what         the   MR. SIMMS:
union wants.                              Well ,     Mr.      Speaker,     to    two
                                          questions:       First of all, T ha.ve
I  also understood that this was          taken steps in the sense that I
lhe approach that they wanted as          was not even aware of what the
well, because they as~ed us to use        problem was.       I was not aware that
the Manitoba approach, and this is        there was going to be a press
precisely what we have done in            conference        this       morning    to
this   instance,  and   instead   of      announce that the union was going
legislating it, we thought they           to take a strike vote on the
wanted to use the consultative            issue.     I was not aware of that.
approach.   and, that is what we          All I heard was they were going to
attempted to do.      Everything we       have a comment to make on the
are   suggesting we    do  in   this      issue.     So, - I mean, you will have
process is almost precisely what          to forgive me i f I have not got
has happened in the Province of           specific answers to the questions
Manitoba where it was legislated.         related to what the union had to
                                          say     at   its      press    conference,
We just thought that we would take        because I do not know.          But I can
a    consultative   approach.   We        tell you this, that the government
thought that is what the unions           is commited to implementing pay
wanted    and I hope i t is still         equity.     We are fully commi ted to
what they want. Maybe this whole          it.    The Premier said at the press
thing is a misunderstanding.  That        conference that. whatever money 1s
is all I can hope for.                    required to do it, we are going to
                                          have to do it, so there is no
MR. TULK:                                 question     or     cone~ ern,  or   there
Mr. Speaker.                              should not be a concern about
                                          funding being made available.
MR. SPEAKER:



Ll229     April 27, 1988       Vol XL     No. 24                            Rl229
                                                                •
We do not know how much it is                  from · the    press    myself,    my
yet.     That is the work of the               officials contact    one of    their
committees     to   determine all of           senior negotiators to discuss with
that kind of information.           We do      them what the problem was, to ask
not know the length of time over               them what the problem was, and to
which     it would be implemented.             try to ascertain if there was any
But I can tell you this, just as a             way   to   discuss   these  matters
point of information, and this was             sitting down     in a co-operative
made      public      at     the     press     way, in a sensible fashion, in a
conference       when      the      policy     fair and reasonable fashion, and
statement was made by the Premier,             that is what we want to try to
in those other jurisdictions where             do.   But I have not had a full
they have implemented pay equity,              report back yet.
generally speaking the basis on
which the implementation has been              MR. SPEAKER:
undertaken has been approximately              The han.    the   member   for   Port   de
one      per     cent     a      year    ~     Grave.
approximately.      That has     been the
rough process. But we did not want             MR. EFFORD:
to, . on our own, by ourselves, say            Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
this is what will be done.              We
have said, let the committees         work     Mr.    Speaker,    my   question      is
out      the     details;      let     the     directed to the Minister of Social
committees      negotiate      the    wage     Services (Mr. Tobin) .      I   want to
adjustments and the period of the              start out by saying          that many
pay     implementation.        And    they     times in the last three years the
should be able to negotiate that               Minister of Social Services and
and work it out.         But they will         many    of    his   colleagues      have
have full authority to do those                accused me of being an alarmist on
kinds      of    things.       There    is     many   occasions,    especially,     Mr.
absolutely no difficulty with it,              Speaker, when bringing forth and
and I really have had difficulty               trying     to     impress      on    the
underst.anding what has transpired             government the situation of our
in the last few hours.                         people     dependent      on      social
                                               services.
MR. EFFORD:
Mr. Speaker.                                   I make that short preamble, Mr.
                                               Speaker, for a particular reason.
MR. SPEAKER:                                   It has to do with the national
The hon.     the   member    for   Port   de   report of the Council of Welfare
Grave.                                         saying   in a  statement relea~ed
                                               yesterday that   27 per cent of
MR. TULK:                                      Newfoundland children are living
You have had no contact?                       in poverty.

MR. SIMMS:                                     Now  t   assume  the   Minister  of
Sorry! . If I   may,         Mr. Speaker,      Social Services,    and I    do not
just   to conclude,         if the han.        think I am incorrect when I assume
member would permit,          yes, I had,      it, was aware of this before this
at the time that I           got the word      report was released, because he is
about what went on           at the press      Minister of Social Services.      I
conference and I was         in a rush to      would ask the Minister of Social
respond to all of           the inquiries      Services   what  steps,   since  he




Ll230       April 27, 1988         Vol XL      No. 24                            Rl230
became minister in the past few          increase in the budget of the
months, has he taken to correct          Department of Social Services this
that problem, that 27 per cent of        year..  I can say that every year
our children are living in poverty?      the Department of Social Services
                                         have received more money than the
MR. TOBIN:                               previous year.    There has never
Mr. Speaker.                             been a year when any division
                                         within   the   department  received
.MR. SPEAKER:                            less money than the year before .
 The hon. the   Minister   of   Social
 Services.                               MR. SPEAKER:
                                         Order, please!
MR. TOBIN:
Mr.   Speaker,   the Department of       MR. TOBIN:
Social    Services     have    started   I believe, Mr. Speaker, we are on
taking      some     very      serious   the right track.
initiatives back in the 1970s, I
guess after the PC Administrat ion       MR. EFFORD:
came to office, as it relates to         A supplementa ry, Mr. Speaker.
trying   to   deal   with what was
happening . regarding the unemployed     MR. SPEAKER:
people of this Province. · We have       A supplementa ry,   the     hon.      the
initiated a budget in excess of          member for Bay de Verde.
$30   million    for    job  creation
programmes,      whereby    we     are   MR. EFFORD:
employing people to work in this         Mr.   Speaker,   it   is  absolutely
Province.                                shameful  and disgraceful for a
                                         Minister of Social Services to
The caseload in the Province has         stand in h1s place this evening,
not increased significant ly.   As a     in answer to a question about 2 7
matter df fact, the caseload in          per cent of N'ewfoundlan d children
the Province is basically at the         living in poverty, and make the
same level.   I can say to the hon.      statement that since 1970 these
member,   when you    look at    the     programmes have been implemented .
caseload   of   the  Department   of     The fact is that these programmes
Social Services, that in   excess of     that have been implemented by his
50 per cent of the people who are        department, - by his own government
on social assistance are people          are not working.    That is a proven
who are not employable, that they        fact.  He just said they have been
are    on  social   assistance   for     there since 1970, but they are not
reasons other than not being able        working.    Can the minister tell
to   find   employment.    They  are     this  House, will he address the
there for sickness, or whatever          question I originally put to him,
the case may be.                         about what steps is his department
                                         taking to ensure that we decreased
And we have addressed that with a        the poverty level of our childr-en
159 per cent     increase  in  the       at least down to the Canadian
Provincial Budget since 1979.   We       average of 16 per cent?
have addressed it, Mr. Speaker,
w.ith a significant increase this        MR. SPEAKER:
year in    the Budget.    We have        The hon. the     Minister   of     Social
addressed it, as a matter of fact,       Services.
with   basically   a  $20  million



L1231     April 27, 1988        Vol XL   No. 24                             R1231
MR. TOBIN:                                MR. SPEAKER:
Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, we        The bon. the       Minister     of   Social
are addressing it every way we            Services.
can. We have increased the budget
for   the   Department    of Social       MR. TOBIN:
Services  every year.   Since 1979,       Mr. Speaker, it is great for the
Mr. Speaker, there has been an            han. member to get up here and
increase of 159 per cent within           talk      about         the       department
the     Department     of    Social       implementing          programmes,         and
Services.    That,  in itself,   is       Newfoundland            and          Labrador
indeed very significant.                  Housing.     What has been done is
                                          that there is a certain allocation
I can say, Mr. Speaker, that, as a        fr01i the      Department         of   Social
government,  we differ from the           Services as a base for food and
Opposition. He wan ted it brought         fuel and whatever the case may be,
down to the national average of 16        and    that      is     received.        Some
per cent.   We would rather see it        people,     Mr.      Speaker,       who   are
eliminated     altogether,     Mr.        renting        units           from       the
Speaker, and we are working to            Newfoundland and r.abrador Housing
that end.                                 have    that      subsidized        by   that
                                          unit.    Other people do not, and
MR. EFFORD:                               then the subsidy had to be dealt
A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.       with.   If the han. member wants to
                                          address that, Mr. Speaker, all he
MR. SPEAKER:                              has to do is look at the years
A final supplementary, the        han.    when    his     own      leader      was   in
the member for Port de Grave.             government,       and     what     happened?
                                          Not only was that dealt with, Mr.
MR. EFFORD:                               Speaker,         the         people        in
I  assure the Minister of Social          Newfoundland       who     had      need   of
Services that I would like to see         social assistance were segregated
it down to zero, but we are far,          whereby     they       had     to     go   to
far above the Canadian average,           checkouts and line up, and they
and that is shameful in itself .          had notes, Mr. Speaker, to buy
                                          food and fuel.         The Department of
I    say    to    the   minist~r   very   Social Services then would not
clearly,     a   programme    has ·been   trust them - with cheques for . the
implemented by Newfoundland and           purpose     of      social       assistance.
Labrado.r     Housing    whereby   they   They    were       not      allowed,      Mr.
subsidize       heating,     but    the   Speaker, to drive a car.                 When
Department      of    Social   Services   the Leader of the Liberal Party
deduct that out of the income of          was a member of the government the
the people on social services.            people in Newfoundland who wanted
Would the minister explain, when          social assistance were not allowed
this      type     of   programme    is   to drive a car.         They had to turn
implemented and Social Services           in their license plates.             That is
takes it away, with the small             what happened to people on social
amount of money people are 1 iving        assistance.
on, how can they get above the
poverty line if his department            Mr. Speaker, we do not treat the
does     not    implement    some   new   people . of Newfoundland the same
policies and some new programmes?         way they were treated under the
                                          Liberal regime.



Ll232    April 27, 1988        Vol XL     No. 24                               Rl232
MR. SIMMONS:                                SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Mr. Speaker.                                Hear, hear!

  MR. SPEAKER:                              MR. SPEAKER:
' The hon. the member for Fortune -         The hon. the    Minister   of   Social
  Hermitage.                                Services.

MR. .SIMMONS:                               MR. TOBIN:
Mr. Speaker, were it not Question           Mr.   Speaker,   the  member   fOL"

Period I would have license to say          Fortune - Henni tage answered that
to the minister, stop living in             question.
the past, twenty or twenty-five
years ago.                                  JusF the other day I      had the
                                            opportunity   to   speak  to   the
 Mr .   Speaker,      the   Minister   of   Newfoundlan d    Social    Workers
 Social Services has had brought to         Association , which dealt somewhat
 his attention a report made public         with the same issue .
 yesterday which points out that
 despite      the    twenty    years   of   MR. LONG:
 marvellous       programmes     by   the   They gave you a hard time.
 minister and his people, 27 per
 cent    of    the   children    of  this   MR. TOBIN:
 Province      are   living    under  the   No, Mr . Speaker they did not .  As
 poverty     level.      Those   are  the   a matter of fact,    they were very
 facts.     No amount of regurgitati on     appreciativ e of my remarks.

                                            What I said then, Mr. Speaker, I
 SOME HON. MEMBERS:                         say aga i.n now:    We have to get.
 Question! Question!                        control of    our destiny in this
                                            Province.   Because of the mistakes
 SOME HON. MEMBERS:                         of the Liberal regime in the past,
 Speech! Speech!                            whether they want to talk about it
                                            or not Mr. Speaker, money has been
 MR. SPEAKER:                               pumped into Quebec, because of our
 Order, please!                             hydro situation in this Province,
                                            over the p~st few years .       If we
 MR. SIMMS:                                 had that money   and were able to do
 A bit of both, Mr. Speaker.                with it, Mr . Speaker, what we
                                            would like to do with it, instead
    of his version of history will          of Quebec doing with i t what they
 take away from that, Mr. Speaker.          want to do with it - it is our
                                            money       we would be able       to
 My question is, in light of the            introduce     an    awful   lot    of
 fact     the     current     statistics    programmes in this Province .
 indicate that the programmes that
 the minister is talking about have         Mr. Speaker, I also say to the
 clearly       failed,      what     new    hon.   gentleman   for    Fortune
 initiatives does he propose taking         Hermitage, if he had   been a little
 now as a result of this abominable         bit   more    supportive   of    thi~~

 set   of   figures     which   show 27     Province than he was when he    was a
 percent    of    these   children   are    federal MP, when he stood with the
 below the poverty level?                   Chritiens and the Lalondes and his
                                            leader when they · tried to deny



 Ll233     Apri:l "!7, 1988      Vol XL     No . 24                         Rl233
Newfoundlanders the right to their    Environment (Kr. Russell).     I will
resources,   we   could  have   the   try and focus on what is a very
finances available to put in place    serious    issue    concerning     the
the type of social programmes that    environment and the protection of
he is talking about today, and he     the environment, and it has to do
would have been a lot better off.     with   recent    publication    of   a
                                      report by the Canadian Forestry
SOME HON. MEMBERS:                    Centre on fenitrothion spray.
Hear, hear!
                                      PREMIER PECKFORD:
MR. SIMMS:                            A point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker.
                                      MR. - SPEAKER:
MR. SPEAKER:                          A point of       order,   the   hon.   the
A supplementary,    the bon.    the   Premier.
member for Fortune - Hermitage.
                                      PREMIER PECKFORD:
MR. SIMMONS:                          I am sorry to interrupt the member
Mr.    Speaker,    again   at  the    for St. John's East ln asking a
appropriate time I will tell the      legitimate question, but I have to
House it was not I who · hid away     rise before time goes by and t.hen
when they wer·e restructuring, not    somebody on    the  opposite  side
I, but the member for Burin           might say the time is gone for me
Placentia    West,   but  that  is    to do it.
another issue.
                                      The hon. member for Fortune
SOME HON. MEMBERS:                    Hermitage got up in his place - I
Oh, Oh!                               was listening and I think I heard
                                      correctly, and I just want to make
MR. SPEAKER:                          sure there is no precedent set
Order, please!                        here - on a supplementary, he did
                                      not ask for a supplementary but he
MR. SIMMONS:                          made a number of Btatements and
Mr. Speaker, it is clear from the     sat down.
line of questioning put by my
colleague and me that the minister    Now this is question period, Mr.
does not even understand the issue    Speaker, and if a member of the
so I will not waste the time of       House is going to be allowed to
the House on any more questions.      get up and make a retort when it
                                      is supposed to be a question and
SOME HON. MEMBERS:                    then sit down, then we are setting
Hear, hear!                           new ~les for ourselves, and to
                                      let that go by now, that would
MR. LONG:                             become a precedent that somebody
Mr. Speaker .                         could   use   in  the   future   to
                                      substantiate the fact that it is
MR. SPEAKER:                          no longer question period but an
The han. the member. for St. John's   opportunity for members opposi t.e,
East.                                 who do not 1 ike the answer g.iven,
                                      to get up and make a ret.ort. and a
MR. LONG:                             statement as opposed to asking a
Mr . Speaker, my question today is    question.
for    the    Minister    of   the



L1234 •   April 27, 1988    Vol XL    No. 24                             R1234 .
So, Mr. Speaker, I just want to            that matter.
bring to the House's attention,
and     to     your     attention    in    The han. member of St. John's East.
particular,        this      particular
incident    that just occurred so          MR. LONG:
that    it    does    not    become   a    Thank you, Mr. Speaker.    We did
precedent in future for question           not take time to speak to that
period,    instead      of   legitimate    point of order, and we app.reciate
questions, as the han. member for          the ruling that the Speaker has
St. John's East was just going to          made because we are here to ask
ask and I am taking up his time,           questions and we will continue to
so that they can ask them as               do so, day in and day out.
opposed to abuse of the rules by
the member for Fortune - Hermitage         SOME HOM. MEMBERS:
and others like him.                       Hear, hear!

MR. WELLS:                                 MR. LONG:
On  that     point   of     order,   Mr.   Mr. Speaker, my question to the
Speaker.                                   Minister     responsible    for the
                                           Environment,     indeed     for the
MR. SPEAKER:                               protection of the Environment is
The   han.   the     Leader     of   the   concerning the publication of a
Opposition.                                report by the Canadian Forestry
                                           Service which alleges, according
MR. WELLS:                                 to recent newspaper reports, that.
Mr. Speaker, that is obviously a           the test spray that was done with
silly   comment.    What   the   han.      Bt in the Province last Summer
member for Fortune         Hermitage       proved it to be more effective
said was it is clear that the              than      the      application   of
minister does not understand the           fenitrothion.    So my question to
issue and has not intention of             the Minister of the Environment is
answering the question, so I will          whether the minister, in r-esponse
not bother ' to ask any more.   It is      to this report, is giving advice
as      simple,      straightforward       to the Minister o.f Forestry (Mr.
statement.                                 R. Aylward), on th;s year's spray
                                           programme?
SOME HOM. MEMBERS:
Oh, oh!                                    MR. SPEAKER:
                                           The han.     the   Minister-   of   the
MR. SPEAKER:                               Environment.
Order, please!     Order, please!
                                           MR. RUSSELL:
To that point of order,       the point    Mr.    Speaker,  my colleague,   the
of order is well taken.                    Minister of Forest Resources, and
                                           I and our officials are working
SOME HON. MEMBERS:                         hand in hand in close co-operation
Hear, hear!                                with r-egards to this year's spray
                                           programme.        The     Pesticides
MR. SPEAKER:                               Advisory Board, made up of very
This is question time, and i f the         competent people,     are  reviewing
hon. member :!lad a question to ask        the matter and hopefully at. their
he would have been in or-der.     I        upcoming meeting, early next month
should have drawn his attention to         as . I understand it, they will be



Ll235      April 27, 1988       Vol XL     No. 24                          R1235
putting the finishing touches              on    that very shortly that report will
the programme and i t will                 be    be made public and be available
announced in due course.                         for anybody who wants to see it.
                                                 I would caution the han: member
I-iR. LONG:                                      not to believe everything that he
A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.                    reads in newspapers.

MR. SPEAKER:                                     MR. LONG:
A supplementary, the           hon.    member    A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.
for St. John's East.
                                                 MR. SPEAKER:
MR. LONG:                                        A final supplementary.
  Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a
  supplementary of the Minister of               MR. LONG:
  the Environment.      Would he comment         My supplementary, Mr. Speaker, is
  on evidence that we received only              to    the    Minister    of   Forest
  through newspaper reports - and I              Resources.    I would just say that
  hope    that    the    minister   would        the public of this Province is
  promise to release the report and              very thankful for the work t.hat
  table it l.n the House soon - on               newspapers are doing in getting
  the suggestion that Bt, by last                ahold    of    reports  and   making
. Summer's programme, was proven to              available    to   the  public   what
  be       more       effective      than        should      already    be     public
  fenitrothion,     given · the   proven         information.
  damage that Fenitrothion causes to
  songbirds,    to    fish,   to  salmon         My   final    supplementary    t.o   the
  species     and,     potentially,    to        Minister ·of Forest Resources on
  humans?                                        the same issue, is given that the
                                                 Minister of Forest Resources has
Will    the   Minister    of   the               said that twenty years ago he
Environment   recommend    to  the               stood      in     an    area       where
Department of Forestry that the                  fenitrothion was being sprayed and
application  of   fenitrothion  in               that    might     have    caused     his
this Province be curtailed and                   baldness, and made light of what
that we have significant expansion               is a very serious issue, will the
of the application of Bt this                    minister not today, in light of
Summer?                                          the evidence      that   is   in    this
                                                 report compiled by officials of
MR. SPEAKER:                                     his    own     department    and     the
The hon.     the      Minister        of   the   Canadian     Forestry   Service     last
Environment.                                     Summer,    give an undertaking to
                                                 reverse the pC"oportions and do an
MR. RUSSELL:                                     application of 2/3 Bt this SummeC"
Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member is               and 1/3 f~nitC"othion, a reversal
perhaps   aware    the    Minister  of           of what the department seems tp be
Forest Resources and I, just last                intending to do?
week,   received a copy of la'st
year's study which was done on the               MR. SPEAKER:
spray programme.     We are currently            The han. the     Minister     of   FoC"est
reviewing it and in conjunction                  Resources.
with the Pesticide Advisory Board
we ·      will         be       making           MR. R. AYLWARD:
recommendat. ions.   I  am optimist_ic           Mr. Speakel"", T do   thank    the hon .



Ll236         April 27, 1988          Vol XL     No. 24                             R1236
member for his question.   I would          use up to 25 per cent of our spray
first like to coment that the hon.          programme with Bt and hope that it
member for Torngat Mountains (Mr.           will work, Mr. Sp~aker, because
Warren) was not with me at the              there is a lot at risk for this
time we got sprayed, so there               Province if our spray programme
could be other factors involved in          does not work with the Bt, Mr.
my nice shiny head, Mr. Speaker,            Speaker.   That is why we still
probably hereditary rather than             have to use some fenitrothio n in
any spray.                                  our spray progarmme this year.

First of all, Mr. Speaker, I want           SOME HON. MEMBERS:
to say I am very sorry to see, and          Hear, hear!
I  believe it ls the first time
this happened, that the socialists          MR. GULLAGE:
in this end of the House are now            Mr. Speaker.
using   The   Sunday    Express  as
their researcher.    Mr. Speaker, I         MR. SPEAKER:
think that is a bad move on their           The han.· the member for Waterford
part.   They usually have better            - Kenmount.
researchers than that.
                                            MR. GULLAGE:
Mr. Speaker, the experimenta l Bt           Mr. Speaker, a question to the
spray programme, that we had last           Min~ste~ of     Housing (Mr. Peach).
year · in areas of the Northern             Given       the      ·statement         by
Peninsula was       done    under    very   Newfoundlan d and Labrador Housing
controlled     conditions.      We used     that its primary mandate is the
different formulation s of Bt and           prov1s1on of social housing for
we     found    one,     through      the   seniors and the disadvantag ed as a
experiments ,      that      was     very   priority,     would      the     minister
effective.        It      is       called   explain     why    Newfoundlan d       and
diapel-176, Mr. Speaker.         That was   Labrador Housing is cant inuing to
only learned last season.         We have   be involved in providing land for
applied to Agriculture Cariada, the         the private sector?         And I speak
group that wi.ll permit the sprays          specificall y    of     the     Pearlgate
that we use.      Feni trot hi on is the    Development      and       the      recent
only spray that is licensed to use          announcemen t     that       a     British
on the hemlock looper and that is           Columbia flnn      is interested in
why we      are using     it in this        developing that site, and a major
Province.                                   department     store,     Eaton's,     has
                                            been spoken of.         Why,    in fact,
The Bt that we experimente d with           does    Newfoundlan d     and     Labrador
last year turned out to be very             Hou-sing seem to be       straying away
successful, Mr. Speaker, and we             from    its    mandate      to     provide
asked for registratio n and we are          housing to the three           sectors I
wait1.ng   for   that  registratio n.       mentioned,     and     is,     in    fact,
While    we    are    waiting    that       developing    land outside         of its
registratio n we will continue with         mandate for the private sector?
an experiment to try to take the
controlled circumstanc es that were         MR. SPEAKER:
used last year and transfer them            The hon. the Minister of Housing.
into     a       commerical   · spray
programme.    And, Mr. Speaker, this        MR. PEACH:
government has agreed this year to          Mr. Speaker,     the Newfoundlan d and



Ll237     April 27, 1988         Vol XL     No. 24                             Rl237
Labrador     Corporation       is     not   SOME HON. MEMBERS:
varying from its mandate.             The   Hear, hear!
mandate of the Newfoundland and
Labr.ado~ Housing Corpo~ation is to         MR. GULLAGE:
provide suitable housing to people          Was that a profit?
in the Province in g~eatest need.
But   in addition      to    that,    Mr.   Mr. M.iniste~, could I ask whether
Speaker, the Housing Corpo~ation            Newfoundland and Labrado~ Housing
does have the ~esponsibility, and           plans to be a majo~ shareholder in
it is part of thei~ mandate, to             this p~oposed development when it
see    that    indust~ial     land     is   does take place, or is it just
developed     in    a     p~oper      way   simply selling the land?       I  ask
throughout this P~ovince.          We do    that- question because of the risk,
need to ensure that developers and          as we all know, of shopping center
industrialists     can     locate      in   development anyway right now given
various parts of the Province, and          that the St. John's - Mount Pearl
for that reason we do f~om time to          region as a whole has more per
time acquire land so that it can            capita shopping space than any
be available to municipalities and          other area of Canada.      So, given
it can be available to developers           the    risk .involved,    does   this
who wish to situate themselves in           government     plan    to     be    a
va~ious   areas of the Province so          shareholder or partner in any way
that they can carry on proper               in this particular development, or
business    operations.       So,     Mr.   is it simply selling the land for"
Speaker,    that   is    not    at    all   profit, as you did with Sprung?
outside of our mandate.        T do not
know if the membe~ fo~ Waterford -          MR. SPEAKER:
Kenmount supports the views and             The    hon.    the   Minister    of
the thoughts of his leader, who             Newfoundland and Labrador Housing.
would consider,      of course,       the
City   of   St.   John's     to    be   a   MR. PEACH:
parasitic city.                             Mr. Speaker, first of all, I say
                                            to the member for Wate~ford
SOME HON. MEMBERS:                          Kenmount, I am not sure if he is
Hear, hear!                                 speaking now as a member of this
                                            House    or   a   member   of    City
MR. GULLAGE:                                Council.    -He  obviously    has   a
Mr. Speaker.                                conflict as to whethe~ he is going
                                            to represent the City of Mount
MR. SPEAKER:                                Pearl o~ the City of St. John's.
A supplementary,     the  hon.   the        He    should    get   that     matter
member for Water.ford - Kenmount. ·         straightened out first.

MR. GULLAGE:                                Also,   Mr.   Speaker,    he    made
Mr. Speaker, I heard the comment            reference to the parcel of land
over the~e from someone that it             Newfoundland and Lab~ador Housing
was sold for p~of it.   We can say          Corporation   made   available    to
the same     thing of   the Sp~ung          Newfoundland   Enviroponics   at   a
land.   Newfoundland and Labrado~           cost of $150,000 for 11.9 hectares
Housing sold $1 mi 11 ion worth of          of property that was zoned for
land fo~ $150,000. · Was that for           agricultural development in that
profit?                                     particular area.    Tt was a sod
                                            farm,  as a point of interest, Mr.



Ll238     April 27, 1988        Vol.XL      No. 24                        R1238
I




    Speaker,     for      the    Housing    MR. KELLAND:
    Corporation.   I say to the member      What applies to us today, as the
    for Waterford         Kenmount  that    official Opposition, will in short
    parcel of land, the 11.9 hectares       order be applying to those of them
    I think it was, made available to       who are successful in re-election
    Newfoundland     Enviroponics,    an    and will form part of the official
    agricultural piece of property,         Opposition next time around.
    for a recovery cost of $150,000 to
    attract   a    technology   to   the    MR. TULK:
    Province that we have, and it was       Five.
    to make a profit, was a much
    greater investment, Mr. Speaker,        MR. KELLAND:
    than the $150,000 that the party        Whetl" you consider preparing a
    is   paying   for· their    leader's    Private Members' motion you think
    salary.                                 about, perhaps, a regional issue -
                                            by regional I mean Labrador as a
    SOME HON. MEMBERS:                      region - or a district issue as it
    Hear, hear!                             might relate to my own district of
                                            Naskaupi.
    MR. SPEAKER:
    Order, please!                          I   felt   that   this   particular
                                            subject, access to information in
    It is now four o'clock and it is        order for us to adequately carry
    Private Member's Day.  So I will        out our functions as Opposition
    call on the han. the member for         members,    was    more   important
    Naskaupi.                               because  it affects a~l districts
                                            in the Province,      not just my
                                            district or not  just the region of
              Orders of the Day             Labrador, but indeed every aspect
                                            of our function here.

    MR. SPEAKER:                            In order for us to discharge our
    The han. the member for Naskaupi .      duties as an official Opposition
                                            we must have access to information
    SOME HON. MEMBERS:                      about government operations and
    Hear, hear!                             government spending, and hence the
                                            reason for this particular motion:
    MR. KELLAND:
    Thank you, Mr. Speaker.                 I have had an indication that the
                                            han. the President of the Council
    I would like the government side        (Mr. Simms) will speak first for
    of   the    House   to   pay    close   the   government    side  on  this
    attention to what will be said in       particular     motion.     As   an
    the debate on my Private Members'       aquaintance  of mine for a great
    motion, because I think it not          number of years, I recognize him
    only affects those of us in the         as an honourable gentleman, as no
    Opposition, but it will have an         doubt his colleagues are, and I
    affect   on   those    currently   in   would   not   want    to see  this
    government as     their   tenure   is   particular debate deteriorate into
    drawing to a rapid close.               an excuse to get onto subjects
                                            that really have nothing to do
    SOME HOM. MEMBERS:                      with the motion itself.
    Oh, oh!



    L1239    April 27, 1988       Vol XL    No. 24                       R1239
Having witnessed the performance             couple of these jurisdictions is
of government on debate in the               that   when   the    Government    of
House in recent days and weeks, it           Ontario,     which       has      the
would seem to me that they would             legislation,    and    the    federal
use any excuse to enter into a               government,    which     has     some
level of personal attack so that             legislation governing freedom of
if we are talking about access to            information - both of these charge
information, as we are in this               fees      accepts   a   request   for
case, freedom of information, this           information under the Freedom of
may     provide     an     opportunity,      Information Act, the minister is
perhaps,     for     those    of   less      not the person who either decides
character     than     the   Government      to grant or deny the request for
House     Leader     to    enter   into      information.       That      is     a
comments    about      a   supplemented      significant difference from the
salary,    for    example,    for   the      way we do it in this Province.
Leader of the Opposition, which
has been discussed in detail in              In   this    Province,    I   believe
the House and adequately explained           Section 7 of the act says, within
to everyone in the Province, with            thirty    days,    the    head,   the
the possible       exception    of  the      minister, may decide to either
members of the government .                  grant or deny the request for
                                             information under the Freedom of
So I    know that   the hon.   the           Information Act .    That allows the
President of the Council is far              minister,   if he so wishes,       to
too honourable a gentleman to use            protect himself from legitimate
that excuse, and that his comments           and reasonab.le questions by the
will be confined to the context of           Opposition, for wh~tever his or
my Private Members' motion.                  her reasons may be.

In advance     I  commend him for            The federal    government and the
taking that sort of an approach              Ontario government handled it a
and an · attitude towards U.   Let           little differently in that they
us not use it as an excuse to                have independent commissioners who
lower the level of debate and let            decide on the level of fees which
us try to pay attention to what I            will be charged when information
am after here, as a member of the            is dug out and provided to the
House of Assembly, in raising this           questioner.             at that is
                                                           I think th_
motion in the first place.                   much more reasonable because it
                                             takes that kind of power out of
It has been said in correspondence           the hands of the ministers who can
and it has been said through the             protect themselves and maintain a
media that there is no universal             shield or a wall of secrecy around
method     whereby    freedom    of          their operations and expenditures.
information legislation is applied
in a number of different provinces           It seems in the three years I have
in our country.     There are some           been here as a member of the House
differences .   Some provinces,   I          of   Assembly   it   is   extremely
understand, do not have freedom of           difficult       and        becoming
information legislation in place,            increasingly   difficult   to   get
but a number of others do, at                information      on      government
least five, of which we are one.             operations.

The     difference   in   at   least     a   As   the   tide   changes,   I   do   not



Ll240      April 27, 1988       Vol XL       No. 24                            Rl240
think there is any question at all       to hide.
in    anyone's   mind   that   the
political tide is changing in this       There are many examples, I can
Province as it is in many parts of       give you some, of how difficult it
Canada, as people and politicians        is to get information from the
on the government side realize           government.    We have a number of
that the tide is changing, a tide        different methods.    We can write
that no one can stop it - it is          letters to ministers, we can ask
changing - when they realize the         them verbally in meet.ings, we can
ship they sail on that floats on         use the Question Period which, as
that tide is becoming leaky, the         we have seen today and other days,
first evidences of it starting to        often becomes a farce.    Or we can
sink is now become well known            put-writ ten questions on the Order
everywhere you look.                     Paper in which certain regulations
                                         ask that certain information ·is
They have that realization on that       given   in cerfain time      limits.
side.    You can    tell   by their      None of     these have been very
performance in the House.       When     effective.
they realize that,      they become
more secretive, .they lock more          I recall meeting with a minister
doors, they become less accessible       some    time  ago and asking him
to us as their critics in the            something     like,     I     suppose,
House    and    they     have   that     twenty-five or    thirty questions,
realization deep in their soul.          matters of concern to me,          the
                                         district and my region.      I do not.
So it seems that over the three          r.eally   have many    answers    yet,
years I mentioned it is becoming         although I think I have a couple
increasingl y    difficult     to  get   of     short   letters    from     him
information       from      government   promising that information would
members,     from    ' ministers,   in   be forthcoming .   I do not have the
particular.                              information .

It    is    recognized    that    an     Another example is found with my
Opposition  plays just an important      colleague for Port de Grave (Mr.
a role in the parliamenta ry system      E.fford) who in his role, as is his
as does government, but in order         responsibil ity as a critic, as a
for us to carry out our function,        member    of ~   the   Opposition  who
we must have access to information       examines operation of government 's
on    government   operations   and      expenditure s, filed a request with
government  spending.  We must have      the Premier invoking The Freedom
access.                                  Of Information Act and saying he
                                         required a ntwber of pieces of
What is there to hide if the             information to do with government
government     is    performing    and   spending,      government   operations
carrying out their operations and        and the pur-poses for travel and a
their      expenditure s     in     an   variety    of     things  related   to
honorable,      legitimate      proper   that.
manner?       Making     access     to
information     difficult   for    the   The  Premier then, using Section
Opposition    tends   to   create   an   ( 7)of The Freedom Of Information
impression in the minds of just          Act, decided to grant that request
about      e~erybody      that     the   for information , and keep in mind,
government may just have something       as I said earlier, that he can



Ll241     Apdl 27, 1988       Vol XL     No. 24                         Rl241
either grant or deny.                      There is no question about that in
                                           my m.i.nd.
Sometimes you question whether or
not The Freedom of Information Act         'l'his t use and take as another
should be there in the first place         example of government trying to
if   a  minister   can   deny   your       increase the difficulty for the
request   anyway.     Anyway,    the       official   Opposition to  obtain
Premier   decided   to    grant   i.n      information.
writing this information.
                                           MR . FUREY:
However, they have just recently           The great ministel."ial muzzle .
made some change in regulation
whereby a . greatly increased fee          MR. KELLAND:
for services was applied, $15.00           Again I   have to ask, what the
an hour if it is not stored in a           government is afraid      of
                                                                    and what.
computer and whatever the costs            are the ministers afraid of other'
are   if    it   is   stored in    a       than   the sinking ship syndrome
computer.    My colleague for Port         which they are now aware of, as is
de Grave (Mr. Efford) was advised          everybody else in the Province?
in writing,     after a series of          What are they really afraid of
pieces of correspondence, that in          really?
order to get information that he
required to carry out his job as a         If, to pick because he is visible,
member ' of the official Opposition,       the Minister of Environment and
it would cost him $445 to get the          Lands (Mr. Russell) carries out a
information he is entitled · to .          certain     function,      a     certain
Now, that is unbelievable.                 operation     and     incurs     certain
                                           expenses, what would he possibly
I can understand, perhaps, _when           have   to   hide from me,         as an
requests come from the media or            Opposition    member     who    may   be
from citizens,        that they would      curious about it, who may,            in
like to have certain pieces of             representing the     people that I do
i.nfonnat.i.on   that     would    cause   represent, want to know that. the
certain        work      within      the   money is being spent properly,
bureaucracy an~ therefore incur a          wisely    and    legitimately?      What
cost, but my colleague, and all of         would   he have to hide if           the
my colleagues, and our colleagues          operation    was    clear    and   above
from the third party, are here to          board and done in an honourable
do a job and there is absolutely           manner?
no reason on the face of this
earth that any member of the House         I    would suggest he would have
of    Assembly     in ' the    role   of   nothing to hide .     I    apologize to
Opposition should have to pay for          the minister   because I happened to
information that is his by right,          be looking at him and used him as
as a member of the Opposition, and         an    example   with    no   particular'
is absolutely necessary for him in         personal refel."ence to him as a
order to carry out the functions           minister, but the whole thing is
of his job.                                there.    There seems to be · a very
                                           strong attempt by whatever means
SOME HON. MEMBERS:                         possible to pr.event the Opposition
Heal.", hear!                              froJ!I carrying out their functions
                                           in the role of examining what
MR. KELLAND:                               government is doing and assuring



L1242     April 27, 1988        Vol XL·    No. 24                             R1242
ourselves   and   the   people    we     The minister to my left suggests
represent that government is being       that the questions were silly, and
run properly.     There are many,        I would have to say there, 'What
many questions about that last           gives you the right, Mr. Minister,
comment that have been in the            to   sit  in   ju~gement  in  that
minds   of    Newfoundlander s   and     manner?'
Labradorians for quite some time,
quite a number of years in fact.         AN HON. MEMBER:
                                         (Inaudible) public figures.
I have another example I can give
you which indicates how difficult        MR. KELLAND:
it is for Opposition members to          Whatever!   Whatever!
get   information.    At a      recent
Resource   Estimates    Committee    I   We have placed the questions on
attended, my colleague for Fortune       the Order Paper and they have not
- Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) gave an        been answered.  Five or six have
example to the minister we were          been answered.
questioning at the time.       He had
made    a   verbal     request     for   When we do get an answer, and I
information     to   a    part icu.lar   have another example here, the
minister and was told that he must       answer     has     absolutely    no
put that in writing and must do          relationship to the question  asked
all kinds of other things, and he        in the first place.
never did get the information. It
was never given to him directly.         If you would look, if you wish, at
                                         Question 15 on the Order Paper,
However, he had his secretary call       which was dated March 15, I asked
the same individual for the same         a number of different questions to
information as a citizen of the          a minister artd ther were quite a
Province and the information was         few sections to the question. The
readily given to that individual.        answer that came back, which was
The   minister,   who   was  being       tabled by that minister, has no
questioned about that at the time,       relationship    whatsoever  to  the
said he would in~estigate.      He       question asked.     So you have to
apparently did and could find no         question   the    quality  of   the
one who would admit to having            answers, let alone the lack of
performed in that manner. _· But         them.   The few answers we do get
this is the sort of thing that           have no substance and no quality
happens to us all the time.              and    do   not    relate  to   the
                                         information we require.
We could even go to the written
questions on the Order Paper, and        When we talk about The Freedom of
that   is  all   governed by  our        Information Act, we do not believe
regulations and whatever. We have        that members of the Opposition
placed something like 120 or 130,        parties should have to invoke The
I guess, written questions on the        Freedom of Information Act.    That
Order Paper.     We only probably        Freedom of Information Act, in our
have six or seven answers.               opinion, is there for anyone other
                                         than an elected ['epresentative of
AN HON. MEMBER:                          this House to get. information they
They were silly.                         may require for any number of
                                         reasons. That is what it is there
MR. KELLAND:                             for.



L1243    April 27, 1988       Vol XL     No. 24                        Rl243
We     are     here,  as     elected     So, having asked that question,
representatives of a number of           has any government member ever
districts, and our job and part of       paid for information from one of
our function is to examine what          his colleagues, which I doubt and
government is doing to make sure         everybody    else would ; doubt,    I
they are doing it properly and to        would ask that the members of the
try to keep them on a straight           government put themselves in our
track.    We cannot do that unless       position and,     perhaps a little
we have the information from the         facetiously, I can say that the
ministers on what they are doing,        members of the citizenry of our
how they are spending their money,       Province are going to put you in
what they are spending their time        our position next time anyway, and
at, and things of this nature. We        say    to   yourself,    'I   require
should not have to use The Freedom       information from a minister and I
of Information Act.   But if we are      am an elected representative o.f a
forced    to use The Freedom of          district    in   this   Province,   I
Information Act because of the way       should not have to pay .for that
government    tries to hamper and        information because I require it
hinder our operations      and   our     as part of the information I need
functions, then I am asking, in my       to -carry out my job.'
motion,    that any charges which
might   normally apply to agencies       This seems to be applicable moreso
outside the House of Assembly be         when the House is not in session,
waived for members of the House of       because when the House is not in
Assembly,    every member   of   the     session, we do not have access to
House of Assembly.                       Oral Question Period, we do not
                                         have access to the Order Paper on
I   can ask the government this          which to pose questions, and if we
particular       question:      If   a   do, when the House is sitting, we
backbench   member of the government     do not    seem to get      the same
required      information     of   any   charges for the same pieces of
minister at any given time through       information.   Why would it apply
the    course    of   the   year,  and   when the House is not sitting?
whether he does it verbally or
whether he ·does it in writing, has      Keep in mind, government decides
any member of the government side        when we sit, _ not us.       so, put
ever been charged ~ne penny- for         yourselves     in    our    position,
any piece of information required        members of     the government,    and
of a minister?       t doubt it very     visualize    six     months,    three
much.    Are we not all subject to       months, ten months, .five years,
the same regulations in the House        no, not five years, a year down
of Assembly?      Has any backbencher    the road when you weLe sitting
or, let us say, non-ministerial          over here and require information,
member of government, ever made an       and   you   ask    the   member   for
enquiry for information and been         Naskaupi, whoever happens to be in
charged as much as one penny for         the   Cabinet,    for    information,
it?    I  doubt it.       But we have    whether in Oral Question Period,
already given you an example of my       or on the Order paper, or through
colleague for Port de Grave who          a letter when the House is not in
was about to be charged $445 for         session.   How will you feel i f I
information that he required in          and my colleagues treat you as
order to carry out his job.              government treats Opposition?     You
                                         will not like it.      You will dse



Ll244    April 27, 1988       Vol XL     No. 24                        Rl244     ...
in  your    place     and    you     will   MR. SIMMS:
complain     just       as     I       am   Mr. Speaker.
complaining.
                                            MR. SPEAKER:
I  suggest   to   you,  members  of         The han. the President of Council.
government, that is no way to run
government.   That is no way to run         SOME HON. MEMBERS:
government, to deny the official            Hear, hear!
Opposition access to information
about     your    operations    and         MR. SIMMS:
expenditures that we require in             Mr. Speaker, I thank you very much
order to provide good critical              for recognizing me, even though I
comment on what to do.                      had- - some doubt.  I - thought the
                                            han. Speaker was looking at one of
Without an ~pposi tion, you have a          the members of the Opposition.
free hand; with the numbers you             The Speaker, as always, is a great
have, you have a free hand; with            man and can see all things at all
your attitude towards legitimate            times, whenever he wishes to.
questions from the Opposition, you
have a free hand, and that is               Mr. Speaker, I listened with some
arrogance in    its most profound           interest to what the member for
form.     I    do     not    believe        Naskaupi (Mr. Kelland) had to say
clear-~inded,      good    thinking         i.n this . particular debate, and I
members of the House of Assembly,           must say, T was not impressed, as
no matter where      they  sit   can        the member for Twillingate said
countenance that continuing.                today     about   the  Minister   of
                                            Fisheries.      T was  not   at  all
MR. SPEAKER:                                impressed with what the member for
Order, please!                              Naskaupi had to say in defense of
                                            his own resolution.
The han. member's time is up.
                                            It is unfortunate that throughout
SOME HON. MEMBERS:                          his twenty-minute address he did
By leave, by leave!                         not,  in all fairness,    put  the
                                            issue in its    total perspective.
MR. KELLAND:                                He dealt with one specific, tiny,
I will clue up in just one brief            minute litt-le point, and not very
second.  I do ask you to give good          well at that.
consideration to my motion.    There
is nothing    there   to  hurt   any        He started off by patronizing me.
member   of   the   House  of    the        'What a fine man I was.    I was not
Assembly in the performance of his          going to be nasty, or anything
duties, it is there to help every           like that.     I was not going to
member of the House of Assembly.            talk about     the  Leader of    the      '
                                                                                      1'>-"::-- -


                                            Opposi tlon' s salary.   I  hope we
Government would have a better              did not use this debate for that
image in this Province if they are          purpose. •
more open with the people they
represent.                                  DR. COLLINS:
                                            He was not even accurate.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!                                 MR. SIMMS:
                                            He himself     is    the   person   who




.Ll245   April 27, 1988            Vol XL   No. 24                          Rl245
raised it!    I do not know why,        the hon. member's comments.           He
unless  they   are paranoid   over      said, 'We had 100 questions or 125
there about "it or something.    I      questions on the Order Paper.'
have no intention of talking about      The actual fact is, of course,
that.  I am going to try to deal        there were only about six or seven
with some facts here, but that is       questions     on   the   Order   Paper,
not to say that other members may       asked of twenty ministers.          That
not.                                    was    the   full   extent of      their
                                        effort, six or seven questions,
It may very well be within the          all the same,        asked of     twenty-
realm of debate, and that will be       ministers     or eighteen ministers
up to the Speaker to determine,         giving     the . i.mpression   to    the
not for the hon. member to lecture      pubtl.c and to the press, 'Oh, they
us as to how we might approach          put a whole 100 or 125 questions
this particular debate.    Although,    on the Order Paper.'
I do wonder, Mr. Speaker, since we
are   talking  about    freedom   of    If that is not a bit misleading I
information, whether or not, not        do not know what is.     Talk about
whether or not, I would love to         sneaky, using the han. member for
see the response that the Leader        Gander's favorite adjective.
of the Opposition might provide if
that question were able to be           The other point is, Mr. Speaker,
posed    under  The   Freedom     of    he did not give credit to the fact
Information Act, but, of course,        that     there    have    been   a
it does not apply to him anyway,        considerable number of answers.
so he will not have to answer that      He did say, 'Many of the answers
question.                               are the same. '    Well, of course
                                        they are because the questions are
The member did say in passing           all the same.     There were only
though, and I did think this was        about six or seven questions.
interesting,  he understood when
there was a lot of work associated      I know I have personally answered
with putting together answers and       three, I think, of the maybe four
he understood why, perhaps there        given to me, about travel, about
should be fees and costs.    Well,      cars, about staff, and it is no
if he understands it, 1 do not          big deal.       Th~re   are   lots of
know why he would even bothe-r to       answers.    In fact, I am told there
put forth the resolution that he        have been 15        responses,   as  a
puts forth today asking that there      matter of fact, in the last     couple
be no fees.    He is contradicting      of weeks, 15 answers to questions
himself right away.                     and the hon. member said there
                                        'tJere hardly any.
He asks, 'What are we afraid of?'
The   answer    is   rather   obvious   Mr. Speaker, let us get down to
because in all the examples he has      the     nitty-gritty      in    this
given, we have indicated that we        particular  debate.    Let us talk
would   provide    the   information.   about The Freedom of Information
That has never been the question,       Act, the legislation itself and
never been the question.                its purpose,    just so everybody
                                        understands it.     In Newfoundland,
 Then he talks about the questions      of course, we do not have to take
'that were on the Order Paper.          a    backseat     to    any   other
 This is just dealing with a few of     jurisdiction in Canada.



Ll246    April 27, 1988      Vol XL     No. 24                           Rl246
In   fact,    we were one of         the    legislation and approved it, never
leaders in    introducing freedom of        did proclaim    their  Freedom of
information     legislation ;   one of      Information legislation ~orhich is
the     forerunners ;     a    personal     rather interesting coming from a
commitment by the Premier to bring          socialist  government.   They did
in      freedom      of     information     not.
legislation      contained    in    this
particular Act,       and it was to.        MR. TULK:
enforce the basic principle that            When did they pass it?
we all are familiar with, that is
the    right    of    access    of   any    MR. SIMMS:
canadian citizen living in this              Oh, I do not know. They passed it
Province,      in    our     case,    to     quite sometime ago.   They never
information       contained    in . the      did proclaim it.
records of government departments .
                                             MR. TULK:
There are certain restriction s.             They had lots of time.
Everybody is familiar with 'the
restriction s.   I did not hear the           MR. SIMMS:
bon . member address any concerns           . Oh,   they had    plenty   of    time,
about the restriction s that are              plenty of time.
placed on freedom of information
so I presume he has no problem               SOME HON. MEMBERS:
with   the restriction s that are            Oh, oh!
placed.   That is the e~emptions to
the Act and there are two types              MR. DINN:
the non-discret ionary ones and the          (Inaudible) auto pact.
discretiona ry ones.    He has no
problem with   any of those so I do          MR. SIMMS:
not even need to go through any of           Yes, t.hey might have been worried
that information .                           a.bout some questions about    the
                                             auto pact or auto insurance or
He did say that other provinces do           whatever it was up there.
have· similar pieces of legislation
and    that    is   accurate.     New        Mr. Speaker, what was brought in
Brunswick, Nova Scotia,     Ontario,         with   that   legislation  here  in
Quebec,     Newfoundlan d  and . the         Newfoundlan d provided for fees and
federal government, there are six            the member did · not address any
jurisdictio ns that have access to           concerns about     the normal fees
information legislation .   M~ni toba        that are charged for anybody who
also has it, but it has not yet              wants to obtain information under
been proclaimed and, of course,              The Freedom of Information Act,
after the events of yesterday, it            that is to charge people a basic
is not likely to be proclaimed for           $5 fee for all requests that are
another while yet.                           processed.

AN HON. MEMBER:                              The f ir"st two hours of information
The socialists      did   not   declare      gathet"ing,    and   this    is  very
that.                                        important,      by   any   pt"ovincial
                                             employee     or    any    person    or
MR. SIMMS:                                   individual, is free.     Two hours of
No, they did not.   The socialists           information gathering is free . . If
in Manitoba, while they passed the           the question takes less t.han two



L1247     April 27, 1988        Vol   xr~    No. 24                           R1247
hours to put together in terms of           information and the file is rather
a response, there is no charge or           thick, they will take the time to
no additional fee.                          call   that particular questioner
                                            and explain to him, 'You have a
If  there is addi tiona! time used          very thick file.    Do you still
in     pu,t ting    the   information       want us to proceed?    Because you
together, then there will be an             have to pay for the copies. '   It
additional charge of $15 .per hour,         is then up to them whether they
and of course, anybody seeking              wish to or not.
information, i f they wish to have
reproduced photocopies, they are            The other point is, if you want to
expected to pay the cost.      In our       come in and sit down with an
case, we have estimated it at               employee     of     the     Workers'
twenty-five cents a .copy, which is         Compensation    Board    and     look
not   an     unreasonable  cost,  and       through your files, there is no
nobody really ever complains about          charge.   So,   I mean,    there is
it, I do not believe.                       nothing unreasonable or unfair.
                                            But I will table this on behalf of
Just as an example, if T might              the Premier in     response    to   a
just digress, yesterday the MOP             question asked yesterday by the
asked a question of the Premier             member for Menihek, I think it was.
and I will table the response, or
this document which explains the            Mr.   Speaker,  that is basically
answer very much in detai 1, with           some of the background.    Now let
respect   to some individual who            me just get to what has happened
applied      to     the      Workers'       over the last six months or so in
Compensation     Board    for   some        Newfoundland.   First of all, with
information.    The policy has been         respect to the criticism, and it
in place there since 1983, and              was repeated by the member for
their policy is the same basically          Naskaupi, and the perception that
as we have here, under our own              somehow people have to pay for all
legislation, a basic charge of $5,          information under The Freedom Of
plus twenty-five cents a page.    In        Information    Act       that   is
1987, they had 349 requests for             certainly the perception, and it
copies of various files.      In all        is being perpetrated, I think, by
cases, copies were made available;          members opposite and some media -
the average charge per file copy            those criticisms are not accurate
was $16.30.                                 nor are they fair.

AN HOM . MEMBER:                            Just     as    an    example:      The
(Inaudible) .                               individual      for     whom      this
                                            legislation was introduced in the
MR. SIMMS:                                  first place, John Q. Public, would
He understood a question was asked          not have to pay any additional
about     a  possible     charge   of       fees for personal requests for
$80.00.    While    that   is  highly       information.    Ninety-nine per cent
unusual,    it    is    possible   if       of the requests we have from the
somebody wants all those copies.            general public are all addressed
But it was not additional fees, it          very     normally,   no    additi.onal
was for copies of files.          The       charge .
answer there ·is very clear, Mr.
Speaker.   They are quite fair.    In       What has happened in recent months
fact,   if  a   claimant asks     for       is that we have been receiving .



Ll248     April 27, 1988     Vol XL         No. 24                         Rl248
                                        •
unreasonable       requests         for   all     travel     claims,     all
information, and there are some           information, details on all these
examples I can cite here.           The   people for a period of five or six
Sunday Express requested        travel    months.
information:     Copies   of    travel
receipts, travel claims       for all     MR. J. CARTER: .
ministers      and      staff       who   It is ridiculous.
accompanied   ministers,     and    any
other staff.     If a staff person        MR. SIMMS:
from another department, Justice          For a period of five or six months!
or     Intergovernmen tal      Affairs
accompanied    a   minister     to    a   MR. J. CARTER:
conference    or   something,      they   Stupid! Stupid!
wanted all of those travel claims,
all the copies of all of the              MR. SIMMS:
receipts, all the information on          Opposition requests, and I am not
all of these people for one full          certain who it was, but I seem to
year.                                     recollect a question,           it might
                                          have been from the member for St.
MR. R. AYLWARD:                           Barbe, and if I am wrong I am sure
Ridiculous!                               he will correct me, but certainly
                                          there     was     a     question      from
MR. SIMMS: ·                              Opposition members asking for the
One year.                                 same type of information, travel
                                          information and so on, for the
MR. YOUNG:                                period since "1985, since the last
The han. the member for Port        de    provincial general election; they
Grave wants you to repeat it.             wanted    information      and    details
                                          covering    the last three fiscal
MR. SIMMS:                                years.    Now, Mr. Speaker, I ask
I will table i t afterwards.   I do       you!       And      many     of     these
not have enough time to repeat it.        unreasonable requests, by the way,
                                          were being used by certain print
CBC wrote a four page letter              media,    one     in    particular,.     to
four pages - asking I do not know         simply fill up the newspapers.
how    many     questions,     umpteen    And    I    say,     why    should      the
questions    of     a    very,    very    taxpayers of this Province pay for
technical   nature concerning the         this     material     to   fill    up     a
Sprung Project.       It would have       newspaper? Why should they?
taken weeks and weeks and weeks to
find the people to put all the            Now, Mr. Speaker, the point is
answers together.     Michael Harris,     these    kin~s     of    requests    and
himself, at The Sunday Express,           examples that· I       gave were· not
example number three, not only            reasonable because it was taking a
wanted to know about the Premier's        lot of the time of provincial
travel, but he wanted all the             public     servants      to     try   to
information on all those who have         accumulate        all       of      this
travelled with      him,   all   those    information,    much of which was
staff from all of the various             difficult to put together, by the
departments I     just alluded to,        way,   because    there are several
Justice    and    IGA,    who    would    different     bits    of     information
frequently accompany the Premier.         located in different       places.   For
He wanted copies of all receipts,         example, the department        files are



L1249     April 27, 1988       Vol XL     No. 24                             Rl249
not kept by people, by names, they        case?     'Oh, yes.'      But if you
are filed by dates for accounting         wanted   information for a two or
purposes.   That is one example.          three year period, it would cost
Also, I understand, receipts are          you roughly $300, not unlike our
kept   in    the  vault    in     the     situation.      Well   I   said,  'What ·
Department of Finance, not kept in        about if I wanted it for just one
the   department   itself.    Travel      month?'    He said, 'We can give you
claims are kept in the government         an estimate.'      I said, 'Well, the
department,   and so on.      So,   I     member for Fortune            Hermitage
mean, it is not an easy and simple        used    to     be    a   parliamentary
task, as members might expect.            secretary. Could you check it out
                                          for me?'    January of 1982, I found
So the reason for bringing in the         out~-    'Yes,    we   can    get  that
fees, then, was that in order to          information for you, no charge.'
be responsible to the taxpayers,
we must    recover all of    those        The interesting thing, by the way,
exorbitant costs associated with          is    that when      I     did   get    the
these unreasonable and exorbitant         lnformat ion, T found that on the
requests.                                 authorizat ton form it simply says,
                                          'To accompany minister on business
Other jurisdictions have, as the          trip. '   It does not say anything
member   for    NaGkaupi     mentioned,   more than that.        Tt was not vet'y
similar     legisl_ tion.
                  a             Ontario   specific.      When       t    read     the
charges   fees,   and     the   federal   receipts    and    documents      of    his
government charge   fees.     So we are   trip_, I found that it was January
not breaking new ground.         We are   5 to Januat'y 11 of 1982, a nice
not doing _ nything
              a         different or      cool time of the year, and the
unusual      in    our       particular   member for Fot'tune             Hermitage
situation.                                accompanied     the    minister      on   a
                                          business      trip       to     Honolulu,
God, how time flies!   I only have        Hawaii.    I thought that was pr'etty
four or five minutes left.                interesting.      So    that     kind    of
                                          information is available.
Mr. Speaker, I do want to get . to a
couple of things.     I did take the      Mr.   Speaker',  I   only have      two
opportunity     to     check      other   minutes left.    I want to conclude
jurisdictions, and   in the cas·e of      by saying this:       Some startling
the federal government I made an          information,     if    hon.    members
enquiry, for example, to see what         wonder why we brought in this pay
it would cost to get information          schedule.    The first quarter of
on   MPs.     I    was     told    that   last year, 1987, there wet'e ten
information related to the IiPs           requests     under      Freedom      of
offices you cannot get under the          Information in four ' months.      Four'
federal   government's F~eedom of         from pt'ivate individuals,        which
Information Act.     An MPs office,       would include MHAs.     So they never
the $50,000 or $60,000 he gets to         bothered last year'.        Four' ft'om
run his     office,    that    is   not   them, six ft'om the media - five
applicable    under      Freedom     of   from The Sunday        Express.     The
Information.                              fir'st quarter of this year, six
                                          from private individuals - this is
So, I said, 'What about a member          since the fees went up - mot'e than
of Parliament who was involved as         there were last year when there
a parliamentary secretary,' as one        were no    fees,    and   thet'e were



Ll250     April 27, 1988       Vol XL     No. 24                             Rl250
sixteen from the media, which is              The hon.   the   member   for   Port   de
three times as much as was there              Grave.
last   year when   there were no
fees.    So  it  has not. been a              MR. EFFORD:
deterrent to them.                            Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Here       is        the     interesting      For the f lrst two years after I
statistic:      Last year, all told,          was   elected   to  thi~: House  of
sixty-six       requests     under      the   Assembly, my main objective was to
Freedom            of        Information      try to discredit the government on
legislation , twenty-four from the            the other side and expose them for
private sector, and so on.              The   what they really are, so that we
interesting     thing is that of the          could prove to the people of this
sixty-six, thirty-four were . from            Province     that   we    are   the
The Sunday Express, in the whole              alternative , that we are the party
of last year.         Now, Kr. Speaker,       that should be in power ; That was
that tells     me something.        It may    my objective for the first two
not    strike      home   to    the    han.   years.
members opposite,       but I will tell
you that if we are going to be                Af-ter listening to the President
responsible as a government to the            of Treasury Board and President of
taxpayers of this Province, if we             the Council for the last twenty
are going to be responsible and               minutes, I am now convinced that
ensure that we protect the public             we do not have to do that anymore,
trough as best we can, then when              because they are doing quite a
you     get      exorbitant      requests,    capable job themselves.      He stood
unreasonabl e requests, it is not             on    his  feet    and   never   once
unexpected        that    those      people   mentioned    the    resolution.    He
should pay.        But in the      case of    totally misled what the resolution
most    of    the     questions    members    is all about, what the objectives
opposite     might     have,    they    can   of the Opposition are, and the
simply ask       questions and if it          reason    why    they    should   ask
does not take an excessive amount             questions.
of time to get the answers, we
will give them to them.            We have    The    resolution   very   clearly
done it on     numerous occasions, and        states: 'BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED
they really .cannot accuse us of              that the regulation be amended to
that .    If they want information            provide that any charges, which
for  a three year period, they must           might normally apply to agents or
be expected to pay.                           agencies outside of the House of
                                              Assembly, be waived for Members of
And the Minister of Fisheries will            the House of Assembly who require
give a glowing example of i t when            the information .for the normal
he   speaks  in   this  particular            pursuit of their duties.'
debate, Mr. Speaker.
                                              There is noth.ing irregular about
SOME HOM. MEMBERS:                            that.    There is nothing to say
Hear, hear!                                   that     that  is   a    ridiculous
                                              resolution, or that nobody should
MR. EFFORD:                                   vote for it.    As elected members
Mr. Speaker.                                  of    the House of    Assembly,  as
                                              members of a party representin g
MR. SPEAKER:                                  the people of this Province, we



Ll2.51     April 27, 1988         Vol XL      No. 24                           R1251
have a right to ask questions and         travelling around the world, going
to get information that the people        to Norway, going to Japan and
of this Province should know.             going to China.  We had better cut
                                          this of.f.'
The    President    of    the   Council
asked, 'Why would the taxpayers of        He comes back and writes, 'We are
this Province want to know the            going to have to charge you for
answers to the questions we are           this. • I received a bill with the
asking? '   I am going to give you        letter totalling $445.      Obviously,
an example, and my colleague and          in the week I asked the question,
friend for Naskaupi read out an           they     changed   the    Freedom   of
example of what we are talking            Information guidelines to insert
about.    I refer you back to 4           the charge for only one reason,
December.      This     is    where   I   because of the exorbitant. amount
requested     information      on   two   of     travel    incurred     by   the
parliamentary secretaries to the          ministers.     I  am going to give
Premier.      The      information    I   proof that we know for a fact that
requested was just simply the cost        this travel has been incurred.
of travel.
                                          We all know about the limousines.
Why     would   an    MHA   require       That ls public knowledge.         The
lnformatlon    on   the   cost   of       press themselves picked that up,
travel?   Because we want to know.        the $1500 limousines, the -$1200
Were there costs entailed?     What       hotel rooms and the $200 tlp given
was the travel for?    If there was       to the driver.    Now, we really can
none, it is just as easy to say no        afford to do that in light of the
as to say yes.     That is all we         release that came forth in the
ask.   We do not know the answers         press   today,   from the National
to the questions, so we just write        Council on Welfare, in which they
a    letter   and   ask   for   the       very clearly stated that 24 per
information.                              cent     of    the      children   in
                                          Newfoundland at"e living below the
On 4 December, I received a letter        poverty · line,     are    living  in
from the Chief of staff:        'On       poverty!    We can afford to give
behalf   of   Premier  Peckford   I       our $200 tips!     We can afford to
acknowledge receipt of your letter        live in $1200 hotel rooms or use
of     November    24    requesting       $1500   limousines when something
information.    Please be assured         like this is happening!
that your correspondence will be
brought to the Premier's attention        This is the reason why we, as an
at which time a- more a detailed          Opposition Party, have a duty and
response will be forthcoming.'            a job to ask questions.   The only
The Premier's Chief of Staff says         reason why the charge was put
very clearly in the letter of             there is to try and stop us.
December 4 that they will give us         Where am I going to get $445 every
the information requested.                time I need information from the
                                          government?   Every tlme l require
Somewhere between December 4 and          information, I have got to come up
December 16, they started to take         with $400 to $500.
this    very   seriously.    'Now,
gentlemen, we are going to let the        It is absolutely absurd to expect
people of the Province know how           any MHA or any backbencher on the
much money we are wasting       in        government side or on the



L1252    April 27, 1988        Vol XL     No. 24                         Rl252
Opposition side or from the little        the minister's off ice and the
party down in the corner down             minister alone, we are not talking
there to have to come up with that        about the executive support, we
kind of money.     They know full         are not talking about all the
well that we cannot do it and,            assistance, · we are just talking
therefore,  they implemented the          about the minister's office alone
charge to stop it, because they           and I can go on and on. These are
know what    they   are  doing  is        facts.   These are not f lgures of
absolutely wrong .                        an alarmist.      This is not an
                                          alarmist standing up and dreaming
Let me just r-elay some figures, as       up figures.    It is information we
my colleague fr-om Burgeo           Bay   have.
d' Espoir- related yesterday in his
speech, of the cost of travel this        Rural, Agricultural and Norther-n
Province is encountering from the         Development, approved, $60,000 and
different minister's offices. Let         spent $76,000. Now, the President
me give you an example. In 1987 -         of the Council asked the question,
1988, the Premier's Office travel         'Why would the taxpayers of this
was $98,000,       in  the Premier's      Province want to know answers to
office      alone,     the      Premier   questions like that?'
himself!       The    Department     of
Finance,      Public     Works,     for   I can tell you why they want . to
example, $40,000 ; Development and        know.    It is very, very simple,
Tourism, estimated $60,000.        Just   basic information and knowledge.
listen!    The Estimates Committees,      When you sit down in the mor-ning
which it is a disgrace to have            for- breakfast and you have two
Estimates     Committees,    estimated    childr-en sitting ar-ound the table
and approved $60,000 and he spent         and the best thing you can put on
$119,000!     What is the point of        that table is to share a slice of
sitting down in this House of             br-ead for breakfast with youc-self
Assembly      and     approving      in   and your childr-en, that is why
Committees a budget for 1987              they want to know the answers to
1988 of $60,000 and a minister can        those questions .
go off and travel the world and
spend $119,000?                           The member- for- Car-bonear- should
                                          not stand in the door-way and make
Let me    go   a   little   further.      fun because- he knows full well he
Energy,    $60,000;     Environment,      and I and all other- member-s of
$40,000; Transportation - here is         this House can go out and sit down
another good one        we approved       in a r-estaurant and enjoy a good
$60,000 for a minister to travel          br-eakfast-.  Twenty-seven per cent
and he spent $80,000.                     of the children in this Pr-ovince
                                          cannot even affor-d the luxury of a
Let me relate back again to what          slice of br-~ad for- breakfast.
came up in Question Period today,
what was on the provincial news           If you want to stand up in that
and, I guess, on the national news        doorway and tell me what I am
again today, 27 per cent of our           saying is wr-ong, and make fun of
children are living in hunger and         it, then I suggest to you -
in poverty without food, without
clothing, without proper heating,         MR. SPEAKER:
and we can spend hundreds of              A point of order-,   the member- for-
millions of dollars every year in         Placentia.



Ll253     April 27, 1988       Vol XL     No. 24                        Rl253
MR. PATTERSON:                          would generate again into the bear
This is beginning       to be joke,     pit that he would like to see.
listening to  the        han . member
there.                                  MR. PATTERSON:
                                        Mr. Speaker.
In the last session of · this House,
I   introduced a resolution that        MR. SPEAKER:
would help solve the problem.      I    The han. the member for Placentia.
know that there     is poverty.    I
know there is    poverty out there.     SOME HOM. MEMBERS:
I   introduced the resolution on        He spoke! He spoke!
universality and every one to a
man voted against that.    You voted    MR. - PATTERSON:
against     the   poor   people   of    The hon. gentleman, who was House
Newfoundland,   and you are being a     Leader for the Opposition,     you
hypocrite standing there.    Dig out    voted against the poor people in
the   papers and you wi 11 see you      Newfoundland,    and   you  people
voted against my resolution -           professed to be the leaders of the
                                        toiling masses,    you people are
SOME HOM. MEMBERS:                      scoundrels and hypocrites.
Oh, oh!
                                        SOME HON. MEMBERS:
MR. SPEAKER:                            Hear, hear!
Order, please!
                                        MR. SPEAKER:
MR. PATTERSON:                          There is no point of order, it was
   that will help alleviate       the   just    a    disagreement. and   a
problem      that     exists       in   difference of opinion between two
Newfoundland and Canada today.          han. gentlemen.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:                      The han.   the   member   for   Port   de
Hear, hear!                             Grave.

MR. TULK:                               MR. EFFORD:
To that point of order.                 Mr. Speaker, the display that just
                                        came   out    of    the   member for
MR. SPEAKER:                            Placentia - (Mr.      Patterson)  is
To that point of order, the member      typical   and    shows   exactly the
for Fogo.                               problem we are having in this
                                        Province.
MR. TULK:
I do not mind the hon . gentleman       We have a government in power who
getting      up     and     making      are elect~d by a clear majority,
mini-speeches, that is probably as      no· argument, by a clear majority
far as his capabilities go, but         of the population of this province
let me    say this to    the han.       to admi~ister and provide a decent
gentleman, and let me say to you,       living for the people of this
Mr. Speaker, that this kind of          Province.     No   question,     no
thing that he has been carrying on      argument, un~il the . next election
for the past week cannot go on.         that st.ands in place.    That will
He cannot get up on points of           change after the next election,
order to interrupt another member       make no mistake about it.        If
speaking.   Otherwise, this place       anybody wishes to argue, drop the



Ll254       April 27, 1988    Vol XL    No. 24                           Rl254
writ, issue the writ, we are ready        a word to describe it.     There is
to go.                                    no  question about that.     Let me
                                          give you  an example of why we need
SOME HON. MEMBERS:                        information on the spending by the
Hear, hear!                               government   and  the   waste   over
                                          travel.
MR. EFFORD:
Mr. Speaker, what we are dealing          When we go into our hospitals, we
with is why would the people of           have a situation in our hospitals
the Province want to know. I can          where people are actually dying
give you many, many examples of           because  they cannot get proper
why the people of this Province           care by our doctors and by our
would want to know.                       nurs~s.    It  is   not  that  the
                                          doctors or .nurses are not capable
Let us stay away from the hungary         of doing their job.
children, and if any . member on the
Opposite side think that I         am     AN HON. MEMBER:
fantasizing and I am trying to be         (Inaudible) .
an alarmist,     I will take them
personally to homes and families,         MR. EFFORD:
children    and   parents,  who   are     That is a · statement-
sitting down and sharing      a bowl
full of rice, or a slice of bread         MR . SIMMS:
for breakfast,     or whatever. ·   I ·   Irresponsib le.
will show them very clearly.       We
are not dreaming this up .     We can     MR . EFFORD:
take    them   and   show  them   the     Go   to    your hospitals   and ·ask
people.                                   them.   Let us go together, let us
                                          get a Select Committee of this
Let us get to the situation about         House and go to any one hospi~al,
why should the people know where          any one hospital.      Two weeks ago
the tax dollars are being spent in        at the Health   Sciences Hospital we
another situation .   Let us take         had fourteen people who needed
our hospitals, for example, -             by-pass surgery, who waited for
                                          ten days in critical condition to
SOME HON. MEMBERS:                        get into the operating room.     Why
Oh, oh!                                   could    they,  not   get  into  the
                                          operating room?     The money is not
MR. EFFORD :                              there to provide the beds that
Mr. Speaker, would you protect me         needed to get those people the
from the    idiotic things coming         proper health care.       Not enough
down from the backbench because I         people -
have some points to make. My time
is elapsing and there is no way           AN HON . MEMBER:
you can put your ideas forth in           Not true.
this House with people sitting in
the back like that.                       MR. EFFORD:
                                          It is true.    Not enough people,
We have a situation in hospitals          not enough money to provide the
where our health care is in a             proper nursing care.
desperation    situation.     Words
cannot   describe   the   desperate       MR. DINN:
situation.  I cannot come up with         You   are   really   careless   with   the




Ll255     Apdl 27, 1988       Vol XL      No. 24                            R1255
truth.                                          Let me inform the President of the
                                                Council, the Deputy Premier, the
MR. EFFORD:                                     President    of    Treasury    Board,
Let us go down to the         Hoyles Home       whatever titles are on top of his
and Escasoni, now let        us give you        little head, he asked the question
some more truth, where        the manager       why would the taxpayers of this
herself came on public       radio -            Province want to know the answet"s
                                                to the questions put forth?       You
MR. SIMMS:                                      said   it  is   in    Hansard,   this
Mr. Speaker, a point of order.                  question by the Opposition.

MR. SPEAKER:                                    I am very clearly pointing out why
A point of order.                               the- · taxpayet"s would want to know
                                                the answers to · the question.    We
MR. SIMMS:                                      need the answers to the question
Mr. Speaker·, in all fairness and               because of the expenditure and the
reasonableness, the hon. member -               wastefulness of money.
I did not catch his whole ·speech -
but I did hear him attack me and                We   had a parliamentary assistant
say as I left that I did not once               ~ast   year, a back benchet", let me
mention  the   resolution,   and  I             give you an idea of what a back
talked about everything else.                   bencher of the govet"nment does.
                                                Last yeat" the back benchet" spent.
I would like the ho·n. member              to   $57, 000 in tt"avel and we turn
tell us what is he doing now.                   around and we will tell the people
                                                of this Province that we cannot
MR. EFFORD:                                     give them a decent living, and we
Mr. Speaker,       there is no point of         will    tell  the people    of  this
order.                                          Province     that   when    we   ask
                                                ~uestions about how much money did
MR. SIMMS:                                      the ParLiamentary Assistant to the
It   is  a point of       order, Mr.            Pt"emiet" spend last year, he will
Speaker.   I t is a legitimate point            send me back a bill fot" $445.
of order, it is totally t"elevant
to the t"esolution.                             I know now why they are sending me
                                                back the bill for $445, because
He is talking about health cat"e                what they are doing -
and everything.    The resolution
talks     about     freedom      of             AN HON. MEMBER:
information,  Mr.   Speake I:'. The             (Inaudible).
hon. member should try to contain
his remarks   to the appropt"iate               MR. EFFORD:
topic.                                          I will deal with that in a second.

MR. SPEAKER:                                    - what they are doing is they need
Thet"e is no point of Ot"det". There            to travel a little bit more and
is just a difference of opinion                 they will try to accumulate a few
between hon. gentlemen.                         more dollars to travel, so they
                                                put the bill and hopefully we will
The hon.     the    member   fot"   Port   de   pay the bill .  Fifteen times $445
Gt"ave.                                         for all the questions, we could
                                                get another $100,000 to waste over.
MR. EFFORD:                                     in  London   doing   some  of  the



Ll256      Apdl 27, 1988            Vol XL      No. 24                        ~1256
scurrilous things that        you    did   going to cost you money?
last year over there.
                                           MR. SIMMS:
Now, what     was   the   question   you   Let us see if what you said           he
just asked?                                said is what he actually said -

MR. SIMMS:                                 MR. EFFORD:
We did not say we would not give           Read the Premier's own mail.
you the information and that was
your whole point, is it not?               MR. SIMMS:
                                           - or did you fabricate that too?
MR. EFFORD:
Okay, let me answer the question.          MR. -EFFORD:
Since I received the bill of $445,         Did I fabricate that the Minister
since that     time the House of           of Development and Tourism (Mr.
Assembly opened and we put on the          Barrett) spent last year, $119,000
Order Paper a written question,            in travel?    Is that fabrication
the same identical question that           when a statement like that is
we requested and we got the bill           made?
back for $445.     This was back in
January.    Today is April and we          MR. SIMMS:
have absolutely no reference· or no        Who . said it was fabrication?
answer to the question to date.
                                           MR. EFFORD:
MR. SIMMS:                                 Well, you were accusing          me   of
(Inaudible) to put that       together,    fabrication, Mr. Speaker.
a full year.
                                           MR. SIMMS:
MR. EFFORD:                                (Inaudible).
The Premier said very clearly in a ·
copy   of   his  letter   that  the        MR. EFFORD:
information is   available and we          Mr. Speaker,   there is no question
will give it to you tomorrow. -            about it.

MR. SIMMS:                                 MR. TULK:
Absolutely.                                On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. EFFORD:                                MR. SPEAKER (Parsons):
That was back on December 14.              On a point of order, the hon. the
                                           member for Fogo.
MR. SIMMS:
(Inaudible) pay tomorrow.                  MR. TULK:
                                           The hon. gentleman should know
MR. EFFORD:                                better.    He has been shouting
This is now April 27 and we have           across    the   House    the   word
not received any information yet.          'fabrication'  and I    refer Your
                                           Honour to page 106 of Beauchesne
SOME HON. MEMBERS:                         and the listing there.      I would
Table the letter.                          ask the hon. gentleman to he the
                                           leader that he should be and
MR. EFFORD:                                withdraw the word 'fabrication'.
This is a copy of the Premier's
letter.  Go to the files, is that          MR. SIMMS:



L1257    April 27, 1988         Vol XL     No. 24                           Rl257
Mr.   Speaker,    'to    that      point     of   MR. EFFORD:
order .                                               because we have a      duty as
                                                  Opposition    members    to    give
MR. SPEAKER:                                      information to the taxpayers.
To the point of order, the                 han.
the Government House Leader.                      It   is   their   dollars   that  the
                                                  people on that side of the House
MR. SIMMS:                                        are wasting.     It is ·not your own
Yes, Mr. Speaker, to the point of                 dollars,    it   is  the   taxpayers'
order.    Let me    also   say    that            dollars. . They have a right to
further  on in Beauchesne, starting               know where the money is being
on page 110, there is a list of                   spent.    You can put all of the
items that since 1958 have been                   obs~acles    in the way that you
ruled parliamentary and in the                    wish.   There is no question about
same connotation it talks about                   it,    every   individual    in  this
'false,    falsehoods,'   all    those            Province knows .full well why the
kinds of things being perfectly                   charge is put in.
acceptable       in     terms       of
parliamentary    wording.     So   the            Really it does not matter that we
hon. member opposite, if he thinks                bring out the number of dollars
I have offended him or something,                 that you have wasted in . travel.
I will withdraw.    But I just point              The fact that you charged us and
out   that he should read all of                  the fact that the people of the
Beauchesne, not one specific page                 Province know full well why it is
that he referred to, Mr. Speaker.                 done is enough for the Oppositidn.
There is no point of order there.
                                                  MR . SPEAKER:
MR. SPEAKER:                                      Order, . please!
The hon. the      member     for    Port     de
Grave.                                            The hon. member's time is elapsed.

MR. TULK:                                         MR. EFFORD:
Are   you     going     t~   ask     him     to   In conclusion, Mr. Speaker.
withdraw?
                                                  SOME HON. MEMBERS:
MR. EFFORD:                                       By leave! By leave!
He did withdraw .
                                                  MR. EFFORD:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker .                          It is enough for the people of
                                                  this Province to know that after
Mr. Speaker, it is very obvious                   the next election they will not
that we have hit a nerve.    It is                have to contend with waste of the
very qbvious that we hit a sore                   taxpayers' dollars.   One or two
point today in the House because                  members will be sitting on this
the hon. member for Naskaupi (Mr.                 side and fifty members will be
Kell~nd) put forth a resolution to                sitting on that side.
exempt the M.H.As from this part
of the House from the cost of                     SOME HON. MEMBERS:
seeking information -                             Hear, hear!

MR. SIMMS:                                        MR. RIDEOUT:
No, extra.                                        Mr. Speaker.




Ll258       April 2·7, 1988          Vol XL       No. 24                        R1258
MR. SPEAKER:                               Speaker,   that   are     before   the
The hon. the Minister of Fisheries.        committees now.

MR. RIDEOUT:                               And then, Mr. Speaker, the han.
Mr. Speaker, I suppose a sign of           gentleman looking very seriously
how full of oneself one is is that         at the Government House Leader,
as one is resuming one's seat one          something along the lines that I
claps for oneself.                         spoke about in this House a couple
                                           of weeks ago when I spoke about
SOME HOM. MEMBERS:                         the perception becomes reality if
Hear, hear!                                you can get the press to pick up
                                           the right buzz word, and then that
MR. RIDEOUT:                               night in Ming's Bight, that is
It is ndt very often· you will see         what gets reported.    It was the
that     in      legislature s    or       hon.    gentleman I · was   talking
parliaments , I would think.   But I       directly to through you, Sir, that
thought it was interesting , Mr.           particular day.    Then today he
Speaker,                                   does it again, Mr. Speaker.   Today
                                           he does lt again.   After he said,
MR. E.FFORD:                               do not accuse me of being an
Walt until the next election.              alarmist or anything like that, he
                                           looks -
MR. RIDEOUT:
Mr. Speaker,    it   does   not   happen   MR. EFFORD:
very often.                                (Inaudible) you yet.

Mr. Speaker, I thought it was kind         MR. RIDEOUT:
of funny, actually, listening to           I am not worried now, Mr. Speaker,
the    hon.     gentleman     kind   of    if    I    speak  about    the   hon.
burstrng     at     the   seams·   with    gentleman.- I am not too worried
self-righteo usness, really almost         about the hon. gentleman.-      Those
puffed          up        in        his    threats are not going to frighten
self-righteo usness, talking about         me ,   Mr.   Speaker.   If   he   has
freedom of information and the             something we will deal with it.
public's right to know, and in the         If he does not have anything, it
same breath ·saying, now before you        is not going to bother me.
accuse me of being an alarmist,
because the hon.        gentleman has      He looks across at the Government
such a reputation of being an              House Leader (Mr. Simms) then, Mr.
alarmist and raising false fears           Speaker, and -
and anxieties, and so on, here in
the House, and . after the next two        MR. EFFORD :
or three words that so eloquently          (Inaudible) shaking, 'Tom'.
flowed from the hon. gentleman was
the following statement: 'Hundreds         MR. RIDEOUT:
of millions of dollars spent on            At least I can be understood, Mr.
ministers offices.'      Do not accuse     Speaker, whether I am shaking or
me of     being an alarmist,        but    not.
'hundreds of millions of dollars
spent on ministers offices.'       That    MR. EFFORD:
was    his    quote,    'Hundreds    of    That was unbelievabl e.
millions,'      talking    about    the
present estimates, by the way, Mr.         MR. RIDEOUT:



Ll259     April 27, 1988          Vol XL   Mo . 24                        R1259
Well, so was the remark.                 brought in under the Freedom of
                                         Information      Act    several     months
The hon.    gentleman then looked        ago.   The principle, Kr. Speaker,
across at    the Government House        is    that      the   information       is
Leader and made quoted something         available; the information must _be
about a scurrilous trip to London        made available.       But is it right
- staring right at the Government        and proper and is it prudent? Are
House Leader - this gentleman who        you    prudent      managers     of    the
does not want to be branded as an        taxpayers'      money      to   allow    a
alarmist, this gentleman who, in         loophole, to allow technicalities
all self-righteousness, wanted the       to   account      for    a    significant
facts to go out as they should to        further expenditure of taxpayers'
the public.                              mon~y   in order to research that
                                         information?      That is what it is
So, you see, Kr. Speaker, nothi~g        all about, _ Mr. Speaker.         That is
has changed, he just keeps coming        what    the    regulations      were   all
on with the same old rubbish, the        about.     You can have what you
same old stuff,    the same old          want, you can open up any files
innuendo.   Not  one   thing  has        you want, you can spend the next
changed.                                 six months with civil servants
                                         down in the vaults in the bowels
Now, let me talk for a few minutes       of Confederation Building if you
about this particular resolution.        want, photocopying and digging out
This resolution, Mr. Speaker, has        information, but is it right and
absolutely nothing to do with the        proper     and    a    legitimate     and
public's   right   to  know.   This      prudent use of taxpayers' money to
resolution,    Mr. · Speaker,   has      have that go on ad nauseum and the
nothing     to    do    with    the      taxpayer pay for it? That is the
government's obligation to provide       question that obviously has to be
information.   The ~egulations that      answered.
were introduced as part of The
Freedom Of Information Act has           It   is not a question of not
nothing to do or not to do with          providing the information, it is
barring the public from knowing          not a question of saying you are
how the taxpayers' dollars were          not    allowed    to    ask  for    the
expended.    It has nothing to do        information, it is a question that
with that whatsoever.                    if you bel~ eve, you being anybody
                                         out there - it does not apply to
Those   regulations,  Kr.    Speake. ,
                                   r     individual         information       on
had nothing to do whatsoever with        yourself, on your own person, but
the      obligation      and      the    if you are The Sunday Express,
responsibility of those elected to       or i f you are the CBC, or i f you
the   treasury   benches   providing     are a member · of the House of
that information to the public.          Assembly, is it right and proper
Whether it came from the han.            to expect that you can tle up
gentleman or whether it came from        hours upon hours , days upon days,
The Sunday Express or whether it         if   the    questions    are   detailed
came from CBC,      or whomever it       enough, at the public's expense to
came   from,   that   is    not   the    get that particular information?
principle that is embodied in this       There is nobody saying you should
particular resolution, nor is it         not have it.      Nobody saying that
the principle that is embodie~ in        it will not be provided.
the regulations that government



Ll260    April 27, 1988       Vol XL     No. 24                            R1260
Mr.    Speaker,      members         of     a   is not a question of rates, Mr.
Parliament,        members          of      a   Speaker, i.t is not a question of
Legislature       must       ~se       their    the public's right to know or the
discretion.     tihether they are on            Opposition 's right to ask and the
this side or that side, they have               government 's     responsibil ity   to
to use discretion. They have to                 respond, that is not the question,
say    to    themselves,          Is    t·his   the    question      that    they  are
particular    series       of     questions     indirectly trying to attack here,
justified in my opinion?               Do I     that is not what i t is, the real
have sufficient reason to believe               question is whether there should
that    I   should     go     after     this    be a reasonable charge over and
information ?     I have a right to             above a set limit to reasonably
get it.      Do I      have reason to           prov-ide information .      I say, Mr.
believe I should go after it? Or                Speaker,    yes,    there should be.
is it just a frivolous approach                 Not    to    stymie     the   flow  of
across the board like was done on               information ,    not   to stymie the
the Order Paper, by the way, on                 flow of answers, but to make all
Opening Day, five or six of the                 of us equally responsible to the
same questions to everybody and                 taxpayers who are paying our bills
the answers are invariably going                to be here.       t   say, yes, there
to be the same?        So members have          should  be.
responsibi lities, Mr. Speaker, as
does    anybody     else,      to    be    as   Mr. Speaker, I have responded to
protective of the taxpayer that                 information under The Freedom of
they get up and croak and moan and              Information Act on a number of
groan about, as they legitimatel y              occasions       before      the         new
should,    and not,       on the other          regulations on cost were brought.
hand, be .prepared to gouge the                 in,     and     since     that       time.
taxpayers_ iri a useless, frivolous             Sometimes it is interesting to
exercise in seeking a piece of                  note, Mr. Speaker, what happens to
information .                                   the particular information             that
                                                you aC'e asked to provide.        I will
Now,    if    you     want     it    under ·    give you a couple of examples_ from
reasonable     circumstanc es,      within      my own expeC'ience:      Last Spring I
reasonable cost, .fine.        But if it        was asked, under The Freedom of
is    an    abnormal,       an    unusual       Information Act by, The Sunday
expenditure of taxpayers' money to              Express to -provide information on
get that information , I suggest,               my travel, enteC'tainme nt, and all
Mr. Speaker, and other parliaments              that kind of thing, legitimatel y,
have     suggested,.      the     Liberal       up to and including the end of
Parliament       of     Ontario,       for      June, I believe it was; it was for
example,       the      great       reform      a   six    or   seven    month     period
government      that     is     now     the     leading up_   to the end of June; for
Government of Ontario - Freedom of              all the senior executives in the
Information in the Government of                department,      and    any    of       the ·
Canada was brought           in by      the     political    staff who are on the
previous      administrat ion.         The      ministeC''s staff, a whole range of
Socialist Government of Manitoba,               pretty detaile·d questions.         t had
who     never       got     around       to     the    staff     of   the    department
proclaiming their legislation but               research the information , p~ovide
brought    it in,      all have rates           it within the thirty days required
similar to what we have in this                 by the Act, and sent it off, of
Province.    All of them do.         So i t     course, free of charge, because



Ll261       April 27, 1988          Vol XL      No. 24                              Rl261
 there was only a flat rate then,               arrears;   and all that kind of
 whatever it was - $5.00 - to The               thing.    No, problem!    I had the
 Sunday       Expre~s.        I    anxiously    Fisheries     Loan    Board    people
 waited    fo~     Sunday to come, M~.          research it over the weekend.      We
 Speaker, because I had no doubt it             came back to Commit tee on Tuesday
 was going to form part of a story              and I still have the information
 - I think the total ·bill for my               here; the gentleman was not here
 own,     at    that     time,    was    only   and I have not been able to give
 $15,000     or $20,000 or something,           him the     information.    But that
 becau~e     it was only for four or            information cost the taxpayers of
 five months, and with all the                  this Province in excess . of $1,000
 senior executives included it was              for fees to Computer Services.     It
 something over $150,000 for the                is - right, but I use it as an
 whole department for a five or six             example.    If this thing were to
 month period            and I see this         mushroom in an uncontrollable way
 great     big     headline,      "Fisheries    through members of the House on
 Minister            Rideout           spends   either side, members of the media,
 $159,000."       I went to pains, Mr.          or members of the community at
 Spea~er, to provide the answer, to             large, it will be a significant
 say to them here is what I have                burden on the taxpayers.     And that
 spent, or any of my · political                is fine, too.    If you want it, you
 staff,      executive       assistant     or   should   be    expected  to   pay   a
 whatever.      I did not have a press          reasonable part of the cost for
 secretary at that tlme.             Here is    getting it.
 what I have spent.            Here is what
 that     amounts       to,     $15,000    or   The hon. gentleman, the Minister
 $16,000.      Here is what the senior          Responsible           for        Northern
 exe.c utive of the department have             Development, I ·think the member
.spent in their legitimate duties.              for Port de Grave was referring to
 There are several of them:               The   him again this evening.           In his
 Loan Board, the Fishing Industry               self-righteous way, not being an
 Advisory Board,           three    or   four   alarmist or anything he says, • A
 ADMs, directors and so on.              This   backbencher, who happened to be a
 amounts       to     one     h~nd~ed     and   parliamentary      secretary     at    the
 something      thousand dollars.          Tt   time' - T have to quote here, and
 was all separated out very nice,               this     was     the     quote          'A
 very decent , very clean for them,             backbencher · spent       $57,000     last
 and out comes the big headline,                year on travel. '       Do you see, Mr.
 "Fisheries Minister Rideout spends             Speaker, the insidiousness in that
 $159,00~          on        travel       and   kind of a statement, hoping that
 entertainment.                                 it might get picked up? That is a
                                                Sunday        Express        kind       of
I    had   another  example,   Mr.              headline.      'The     han.    gentleman
Speaker, just briefly. The member               spent $57,000 last year.'             What
for Eagle River was here in the                 was the fact, Mr. Speaker?             The
Estimates Committee last Thursday               total was for three years.            That
night and he asked me to provide                was    the    information      that    was
information   from  the  Fisheries              provfded     under The       Freedom of
Loan Board, which was ·legitimate,              Information Act,        just like the
on how many loans were approved in              information     I    gave The      Sunday
his district; in what communi ties              Express, and rightly so.            I   am
they were; wnat the outstanding                 not complaining.        I separated lt
amount was;    how many were in                 out nice for them, mine versus the



Ll262      April 27, 1988           Vol XL      No. 24                            R1262
executive of the department.   The              to    get    your      hands      on    the
han.    gentleman's was the same,               information , that is n~t the case,
separated out nice and neat and                 but some reasonable cost to cover
tidy over the three years because               the    cost      of     accessing       the
that was what was asked for, three              information should be welcomed.
years     information .  But    the             It    should      be    welcomed,       Mr.
headline story was, "$57 ,000 in a              Speaker,    by all those in this
year" .                                         Province who are responsible , who
                                                are fiscally prudent, who want us
  I    also     understand,        in    that   as their elected representat ives
  particular case, that the request,            to   be · fiscally      responsible - in
  under The Freedom of Information              looking out      to the dollars that
  Act,    came     from       the    official   the~    pour       into      the     public
  Opposition, and two days after it             treasury.    It    should be welcomed.
. was provided under the Freedom of             That is not onerous, Mr. Speaker .
"Informatio n Act, it appeared in               That   is    not     dictatorshi p,     Mr.
  The Sunday Express.            That is my     Speaker.    That is     not covering up
  understandi ng.      So, I say, is the        information , Mr. Speaker. That is
  Opposition,       or      the    Socialist    being     fiscally       and     prudently
  Opposition, or somebody over here             responsible     for taxpayers' money.
  supposed    to     be     a    vehicle   to   That is all that has happened
  further gouge the taxpayer for the            under The Freedom of Information
  benefit    of    selling papers         for   Act, Mr. Speaker, that is all that
  somebody?     Is that our role, Mr.           has       happened .       under        the
  Speaker?     That is fine, if you             regulations , and this         resolution,
  want    to     do      that     with    the   Mr. Speaker, is puffery, it is not
  information .     I have no objection         worth the piece of paper it is
  i f you want to do that with the              written     on,     and     I    hope    my
  information .         It      is     public   colleagues        will,       with      due
  information .      You can have it.           diligence, dispose of it as it
  You    can    have       it .with      1001   should be disposed of.           Thank you
  welcomes.      But      the point,      Mr.   very  much.
  Speaker, of the regulations under
  The Freedom of Information Act is.            SOME HON. MEMBERS:
  to ensure that the taxpayer is not            Hear, hear!
  further gouged and the taxpayer's
  pocket is not further picked by               MR. FUREY:
  the unscrupulou s who might be in             Mr. Speaker.
  our society for other reasons.
  Have it!     You are entitled to it.          MR. SPEAKER:
  Provide it, government.           You have    The han. the member for St. Barbe .
  a responsibil ity to provide it.
  But, Mr. Speaker, it has to be                SOME HON. MEMBERS:
  paid for.      There has to be some           Hear, hear!
  legitimate return to the Treasury,
  not an onerous burden,               not a    MR. FUREY:
  financial cost that is so extreme             Mr. Speaker, I guess that after
  that Rockefeller would not be able            listening   to   the  Minister of
  to    get     his       hands     on    the   Fisheries we   can assume he will
   information , not a cost that is so          voting for our resolution on this
  onerous and so out of whack that              particular matter.
  you would have to be among the top
  ten richest people in Newfoundlan d           It   is interesting to see that the



 L1263      April 27, 1988         Vol XL       No . 24                            Rl263
Minister of Fisheries has been           newspapers and the like that the
making quite a number of speeches        minister   has   i:'eferred   to,  "be
in the House recently.      I can only   waived for members of the House of
reason one of two things: Either         Assembly,    who       require    this
there are no other speakers on the       information .for the normal pursuit
other side, particularly those who       of their duties."
do   not   sit    in   Cabinet,   that
handful   that     do   not   sit   in     All that is saying is that all
Cabinet,    or    the   minister    is     fifty-two people in this Chamber
getting   a    head   start   on   the   . have    the   right   as   elected
leadership race.                           officials, as people who represent
                                           various     people   in    various
At any rate, Mr.      Speaker,  the        districts throughout the Province,
resolution presented by the member         have a fundamental right to ask
for     · Naskaupi    is     pretty        for and receive information · which
straightforward. He tells me that          they request.
he intentionally made it simple
and straightforward so that people       Mr.   Speaker,   just    put    it   in
could     not   be  distracted   or      perspective,      forgetting        the
deterred, or could not wander off        backbenchers just for a moment.
track.                                   If   you    just    look     at    this
                                         particular side,     the Opposition
He    essentially  only    put   · two   side, both the official Opposition
recitals there, two recitals.     How    and the· other party, there are
you can meander and wander like          seventeen members sitting on this
some of the speakers previous from       side who have an average of 10. ooo·
those reel tals to talk about what       constituents,    which    is    170,000
they talked about is beyond me,          people.
Mr.    Speaker.    It   is     pretty
straightforward.                         So basically, 170,000 people on
                                         this side, through these seventeen
He says, "WHEREAS the access to          members, request certain pieces of
information relating to gove r Mient     information, and what do we get,
operations is an essential element       Mr. Speaker?    We get regulations
for the performance of the duties        and rules thrown back at us, at.
of all members of the House of           the people, all 170,000 people,
Assembly,     particularly       the     that   you ·must pay    to  receive
official Opposition; and                 lnformat.ion where you were duly
                                         elected to ask certain questions.
••WHEREAS this information should
be    readily   available  to  all       They may or not be embarrassing,
members of · the House of Assembly       that    is   not  the    issue,    Mr.
and reasonable notice, whether the       Speaker.    It is not the issue of
House is in session or not."             whether    the   minister's    answers
                                         will    be   embarrassing    to   that
Now, those are the two      reel tals,   minister or to that government.
pretty straightforward.                  That is not the issue.        It is a
                                         fundamental issue that goes right
"BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that the       to the heart of democracy.        That
regulations be amended to provide        is why I say, Mr. Speaker, it
that   any  charges,   which might       appears    to me   that    the whole
normally   apply   to   agents   or      concept of freedom of information
agencies   outside    the   House,"      almost seems to be a paradox.        A



i:.l264   April 27, 1988      Vol XL     No. 24                         Rl264
paradox     is    something    with        Rideout) made a comparison.       He
seemingly contradicto ry qualities         said, 'What is    so different about
or phrases.     It is a statement          Newfoundlan d, Ottawa, and Ontario
that is seemingly contradicto ry or        and all those other places?' Yes,
opposed   to common sense.      The        they have imposed fees. Yes, they
whole   concept    of  freedom   of        have brought in these Acts.     Yes,
information seems to be opposed to         they brought   in regulations . But,
the very basic tenant of common            what he failed to talk about, I
sense.                                     suppose in an elliptical sense,
                                           was that he did not talk about the
The public pay all of us. We deal          other half of the statement.
in   information . It   is public
information .  The public pay our          Whil~  there are fees imposed in
salaries. We owe it to the public          Ontario,   while   there at"e  fees
to give them that informatiqn .            imposed   in    other places,   for
That is my own personal belief on          example,   Nova   Scotia,  and  the
this Mr. Speaker.                          House Leader  alluded to this, they
                                           have fees but they wave it for
However, we do see that there is a         members for the House of Assembly
Freedom of Information Act. Well,          there I think, or they do not have
why is it that each department, if         fees.
you want to save money, does not
instruct their press secretaries           What he failed to talk about was
or     one   of     their     various      that while there are fees        in
Order-In-Co uncil    appointees    to      place,   who  puts   the   fees  in
become    an  information    officer?      place? An independent freedom of
The information officer can deal           information commissione r, that is
with    each  departmen~'s    various      who puts the fees i.n place, not a
requests.                                  cabinet that sits around· and says,
                                           'We are going to put the following
The minister said there were not           fees in place.'
very   many    requests    to  each
department but government as a             MR. SIMMS:
whole had a lot of requests to             That is incorrect.
deal with.   Why do they not have
an information officer, one of the         MR. FUREY:.
civil servants or one of        the        That is incorrect?   Correct me.
Order-In-Co uncil appointees? If I
asked the Minister of Public Works         MR. SPEAKER:
(Dr. Twomey), for example, the             The han. the House Leader.
question that I write to him under
the Freedom of Information , he            MR. SIMMS:
just p~sses it to his information          For   the benefit     of  the hon.
officer.   That information officer        member,   the estimated costs or
has thirty days by statute to              fees that would be imposed for a
gather that information and send           request of a large nature and so
it back to me.        There are no         on at"e estimated by the officials
worries about the global aspect of         of the department, not by the
the   government    or   all  those        Cabinet.    The officials of the
problems that the Minister alluded         relevant department will say, 'Do
to.                                        you want this information .     We
                                           estimate it wiJl     cost $300' or
The     Minister   of   Fisheries   (Mr.   whatever.    Then, if it does not



L1265      April 27, 198.8      Vol XL     Mo. 24                           65
                                                                         R12"
cost $300, the member will get a       price tag when they have already
refund   incidentally, that   is       faced a general election and have
another point.                         been elected to do just that, to
                                       come in and ask certain questions,
MR. SPEAKER:                           to perform the duties that are
The bon. the member for St. Barbe.     assigned to her Majesty's loyal
                                       Opposition,  and   to  ask   these
MR. FUREY:                             questions.
I  am sorry, I did not mean to
mislead the bon. member. · I was       How else would we have know, Mr.
not talking about the estimates        Speaker, and held the government
for the total compilation of the       accountable     for    some    of   the
information.  I was talking about      expenditures we saw from, forget
the set rates.     Who sets   the      Cabinet ministers, lets look at
rates,    for  example 1  l.n our      parliamentary     secretaries.      The
regulations now, you have added        minister brushed lt off pretty
sections (d) and (e) which say         quickly, but $56,000 is spent by a
that beyond two hours, it will be      parliamentary secretary.       That is
$15 an hour.                           quite a handsome chunk of change,
                                       Mr.   Speaker,    in   this   time   of
I   am saying to you that the          restraint, when hospital beds are
Cabinet     of     this    Province    being    threatened,    when drinking
determines what that would be.   It    water in a school in my riding
is    not  problem    to  estimate.    that houses kindergarten to grade
Anybody can do an estimate, but        three is not fit to drink, when
you have to base the estimate on       these kinds of very serious human
what the Cabinet has decided that      problems are at stake. What do we
the standard fee will be.              see?     We   see    a   parliamentary
                                       secretary go to Halifax; we see
I am saying to you that in other       him go to London three times; we
provinces they have freedom of         see him · go to Moscow,         Dublin,
information officers who set those     Dusseldorf,     Frankfurt,     Cologne,
certain rates, as in Ottawa, as in     Bremen,      Amsterdam,      Victoria,
Ontario, and other places. We are      Reykjavik,      Bergen,     Trondheirn,
saying   that   that  removes  any     Addles tone,     Aberdeen,     Augusta,
susp1c1on or any doubt at all,         Boston.
otherwise people are going to say
that Cabinet just sits around and      Mr. Speaker, that is not bad so
sets the rates. It is foolishness.     bad to have that kind of globe
                                       trotting    event   happen   for   the
At   any  rate, Mr.    Speaker,  the   $56,000, but it is indeed our
ministe~    talked   about   certain   duty, as responsible members of
information coming out.      Whether   this House, to say, 'Why was the
it    is    embarrassing_  to    the   money spent, how many jobs did you
government or not, is not the          bring     horne,    and    how     did
relevant    point.    The   relevant   Newfoundland benefit?'     Those are
point is that the public clearly       perfectly honest questions.        So,
has a right to know how all public     whether it is embarrassing     because
dollars are being spent.      We are   it   is  a    one-time headline     or
saying that the elected officials      whatever, that is not the relevant
of this Assembly, the members of       issue.   The relevant issue is,- do
this House of Assembly should not      we, as members of this House of
be burdened with this punitive         Assembly, have the right to ask



Ll266      April 27, 1988   Vol XL     No. 24                          Rl266

                   .·
for information and receive it           MR. FUREY:
free in the time limitation put on       We have asked again on the Order
us, the thirty days, or do we not?       Paper.   We did not have an Order
                                         Paper prior to the House opening,
I refer to the hon. member for           so we were forced to use the
Port de Grave.        He is a good,      Freedom of Information Act.          So
hard-working,       and     honourable   what happened was, we put the same
member.   He wrote the Premier last      question, the han. the member for
year, on November 24, 198 7 , and,       Port de Grave, on the Order Paper,
not being sneaky or anything, he         March 15, 1988.      He asked it in
laid out the facts.      He said, 'Mr.   November of 1987.      'Pay $445 and
Premier,     r     would    like   the   we will give i t to you.'       Insult!
following      information    on   the   Slap· in the face to 170,000 people
travel    of     other   parliamentary   who    are    represented      by   the
secretaries.'      The Premier wrote     seventeen      members      of     this
him back and said, 'You can have         Opposition!    He puts it on the
it as soon as you go down to the         Order Paper three weeks ago .       The
Central Cashier's Office and put         Premier says the information was
down $445. •                             compiled back in December, it is
                                         there, pay for it, it is yours.
Mr. Speaker, that is an insult to        We wait now until March 15.          He
every   single   member   of   this      asks for' it on the Or"der Paper.
Legislature, an absolute insult.         Do we have an answer? No.         Is it
                                         compiled?     Yes.     Is    it    over
SOME HON. MEMBERS:                       there?   Yes.   Can they give it to
Hear, hear!                              us? Yes.    Have we asked for it on
                                         the Order Paper?       Yes.    Have we
MR. FUREY:                               got    it?     No.     Mr.     Speaker,
Mr. Speaker, it is interesting to        something is not right over on
note that the member asked for           that side.
this information on November 24,
1987 and the guidelines were not           Mr. Speaker, let m.e say a couple
changed until December 11, 1987            of other things.       There was an
and yet this gets swept into the           interesting article in one of the
new guidelines retroactively.              paper recently where a gentleman
                                           wrote in and said the following:
Mr.   Speaker,   it certainly . does       "Freedom of· Information, denial of
hang a cloud of suspicion over             information, delay of information,
this government.     Nobody wants to       cost   of    information:    Of   the
imply   that   there   is   something      above,    freedom      seems    least
wrong or anything like that, but           appropriate,         Freedom       of
we are saying, 'Look, in fairness,       . Information."    He is saying that
this. letter was written before the        dehial is more impor'tant with this
regulations                                government, delay makes more sense
                                           with this government and cost is
MR. SIMMS:                                 the order of the day with this
We can simply give it to now.              government.    Not freedom, there is
                                           no such thing as freedom.
MR. FUREY:
Well, give it to us.                     Mr. Speaker, let me put another
                                         telling    question      to    this
MR. SIMMS:                               Assembly.    The   regulations  for
What is the problem?                     Freedom   of     Information   were



Ll267    April 27, 1988       Vol XL     No. 24                          Rl267
gazetted on October 23, 1981. Mr.           we going to be into it? etc.,
Speaker, it is interesting to note          etc.  A litany of questions went
that these regulations, which were          on and on, Mr. Speaker.   Did we
gazetted in 1981, were amended in           get an answer? No, we did not get
December of 1987.  Now, that gives          answers, not at all.
rise    to  a   most    interesting
question.                                   The han. House Leader (Mr. Simms)
                                            referred to somebody writing under
Why was there no fee structure in           Freedom of    Information,       CBC or
place     from     October     1981    to   something,       about         technical
December 1987?        In other words,       questions     for       the       Sprung
why did they wake up overnight and          greenhouse   and   not    giving     the
all of a sudden say, 'We better             answers.    You    have     to    wonder
get   some      fees   in   place    here   whether they have the answers.
quick?'     Why did it take six     years   You cannot give what you do not
from     the      initial    point     of   got.   They must not have answers
gazetting      these    regulations    to   on that particular mega financial
December 11, 1987, the ·s ix years          malestrom   that    they     have    got
in between, why were there not              themselves spiraling down into.
fees    imposed?       Why    did    they
magically appear aU of a sudden,            Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that
overnight when the heat starting            what my han. friend for Naskaupi
getting on the government?           They   (Mr. Kelland) has put forwaL~d is a
had to start supplying information          very good, a very simple, very
that was embarrassing to the point          straightforward,    and    I    put
of almost being incriminating. · So         emphasis on the word 'simple.'   He
the heat was on and they decided,           made it simple for the government
.'Here is how we will             deflect   to understand.    He made it very
this.    I t will not be much of an         straightforward so that they could
issue and it will be all over in a          not dance all around the issue.
few days.'       But what they failed       The issue is plain.
to realize, Hr. Speaker, is that
the general public are not being            Will you waive the fees you have
fooled by this absolute mugs game           imposed _on seventeen members of
and shell game they are playing.            Her Majesty's Opposition, both the
                                            Official Opposition and the corner
Mr. Speaker, it seems to be a game          party down_ there in the corner?
of   hide    and    seek    for  this       Will you waive those fees and deal
government.    How many times have          properly with people who have been
members come into this Assembly,            elected    by   170,000 . people    out
day after day, seeking legitimate           there basically?        Stop muzzling
and   honest    and   straightforward       the Opposition.       It is a very
information about that great big            straightforward request.        "BE IT
white elephant that glows in the            THEREFORE      RESOLVED     that    the
dark, the Sprung greenhouse?      How       regulations be amended to provide
many times have we come in and              that   any    charges,    which   might
asked straightforward questions?            normally apply to" members of the
                                            House of Assembly, be waived "who
Where are    the market studies? How        require the information for their
did we      get   involved  in  this?       normal pursuit of duties."
Where is      the feasibility study?
How much    are we into it at this          Now look, hon. members have to ask
point in    time? How much more are         themselves a question.    If they



Ll268     April 27, 1988        Vol XL      No. 24                           R1268
vote against this resolution, they          How many jobs were brought home by
are    really    saying     that    duly    the minister and the parliamenta ry
elected    members   of    this · House     secretary?    How many jobs were
ought to be muzzled, should be              brought home.? How many jobs were
muzzled and have no right to this           brought home?    How many jobs were
information .    Mr. Speaker, where         brought home?      Nobody seems to
are    we    going    to     get    the     know.   Tt was just a wonderful,
exorbitant    amounts of money for          highfalutin ,    galavanting   trot
the    simple    questions    and    the    across Europe.     That is all it
simple   answers that we ask? Where         was.   Nobody else can pin-point
is the han. member for Port de              what had been done.
Grave (Mr. Efford) going to get
$450 every time he wants a simple           MR. -SPEAKER:
pie.ce    of   information     from     a   Order, please!
request   that he has put in? Where
is he going to get it?         Where is     MR. FUREY:
the  hon·. member for Bellevue (Mr.         Mr. Speaker, to conclude, I want
Callan) going to get money when he          to   congratulat e the member for
puts in freedom of information ?            Naskaupi on behalf of all members
He too may want some answers to             of this legislative assembly for
questions which may deeply affect           having    the  foresight  and   the
his district, Mr. Speaker, if he            courage to stand up and say to
starts being treated unfairly over          this assembly, all of us, to vote
there in the backbench.                     not just for members, now, but for
                                            future members, that none of these
Mr. Speaker, these are legitimate           punitive measures be applied to
questions raised by the hon. the            the   fifty-two members assembled
member for Naskaupi. . The answers          here to do the people's business.
may be very embarrassin g, and the
Minister of Fisheries eluded to             Thank you.
that, that yes,- sometimes you will
put information out and i t will            SOME HON. MEMBERS:
catch a headline and it may be              Hear·, hear!
embarrassin g for a moment,      but
that is the nature of democracy.            MR. WARREN:
                                            Mr. Speaker.
If you are going to spend money,
you must be accountable for that            MR. SPEAKER:
expenditure , and the Minister of           The   han.    Minister   of   Northern
Fisheries knows, because he is a            Development .
good and decent person, that in
his heart of hearts, this global            MR. WARREN:
little tirade from one of        the        Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
parliamenta ry secretaries visiting
Halifax, and London, and Moscow,            I thought, Mr. Speaker, it would
and Dublin, and the list goes on            be an appropriate time seeing the
for $56,000, he knows in his heart          resolution was brought forward by
of hearts because he is a decent            the member for Naskaupi, that I
and dignified human being - and I           would   take  a  few  minutes  to
know   him   to  be   that     that         address the resolution.   I would
Newfoundlan d did not get a very            like to begin, Mr. Speaker, by
good bang for those $56,000.   They         tabling a letter, and I will read
did not  create one job.                    the contents of the letter, Mr.



Ll269     April 27-, 1988        Vol XL     No. 24                          Rl269
Speaker, as I am going to table             asked somebody on this side of the
it.   It was written on the January         House   to   withdraw   the  word,
15, 1988.   It was·addressed to Mr.         'hypocritical'.   I would ask that
Chuck    Furey,   MHA,    St.   Barbe       the same rule be applied t.o the
District, House of the Assembly,            Minister responsible for Northern
Confederation       Building,     St.       Development.
John's,   Newfoundland.     Dear Mr.
Furey:    This will refer to your           MR. SIMMS:
letters of October 13, 1987 and             To   that  point       of   order,     Mr.
December 8, 1987 addressed to the           Speaker.
hon.   Robert J. Aylward,      former
Minister of     the   Department   of       MR. SPEAKER:
Rural, Agricultural, and Northern           To ..that point of order, the hon.
Development, enclosed are copies            the President of the Council.
of documents relating to travel
and entertainment expenses for the          MR. SIMMS:
hon. Garfield Warren, from April            Just to assist Your Honour in his
1, 1985 to September 30, 1987,              ruling.    Obviously these kinds of
totalling      $53,483.36.      Yours       words sometimes are parliamentary
truly,     Harold    Stone,    Deputy       and sometimes they are not.              If
Minister.                                   Your     Honour       would      look    at
                                            Beauchesne,     Page 110, near the
Mr. Speaker, that letter was only           bottom of      the page,         it says,
sent   to    one    member     of    this   "Since 1958,      it. has been ruled
particular House of the Assembly,           parliamentary to use the following
one particular member          to    this   expressions:"      Then move over to
House    of    the    Assembly.       Mr.   Page 112, up near the top, and
Speaker,    two    weeks   later,     ~     Your Honour will see that it has
Sunday      Express      carried      the   been accepted since 1958 to use
headlines of my travel expenses.            the     words,       'hypocrites'       and
Now, ·Mr. Speaker, and who, Mr.             'hypocrisy•·.      There are several
Speaker, were making all of the             examples,      December.       of     1975;
comments in The Sunday Express~             October of . 1966.         So,     I mean,
the hon. member for Naskaupi, the           obviously      the      word      is    not
hon. member for Naskaupi.        So, Mr.    necessarily                     absolutely
Speaker, I     think both gentlemen         unparliamentary.
are very hypocritical.        They . have
concocted, they have concocted a            MR. TULK:
sleazy, a sleazy means of Mr.               Further to the point of order, Mr.
Furey,   or the member for st.              Speaker.
Barbe, asking for information on
behalf of The Sunday Express, on            MR. SPEAKER:
behalf of The Sunday Express.               To that point of order,         the hon.
                                            the member for Fogo.
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!                              MR. TULK:
                                            If Your Honour would go back to
·Apoint of order,        the   han.   the   Page 107 he would also see that
member for Fogo.                            'hypocrite'    has   been   ruled
                                            unparliamentary, and last week .in
MR. TULK:                                   this House Your Honour ruled it
It was about seven or eight days            unparliamentary.
ago, I believe, that Your Honour



Ll270     April 27, ·1988        Vol XL     No. 24                             Rl270
MR. SPEAKER:                              media       who   . interviewed    me
To that point of order. I see the         afterwards.     My first choice was
reference here on page 107, and           to go and buy one, which would
then a contradicto ry one here on         cost $300 to $500, and which I
112.    I do not know i f the .Chair      would use very seldom.        I said,
is   supposed to toss a coin to           'No, I am not going to buy it. '
decide which one to accept, but I         The other choice was to go and
do      not    think    the     word      rent one, and I thought that over
'hypocritic al' is a particularl y        for some considerabl e length of
acceptable word and I would ask           time. My third choice, which gave
the hon. member to withdraw it.           me reason to accept the second
                                          choice, was I could have borrowed
MR . WARREN:                              one _. from the member for Naskaupi.
Mr. Speaker, I have no problem at         But that was way too big for me,
all with withdrawing the comment,         so I went and rented one.        That
but if the shoe fits, let him wear        was the reason I       finally rented
it.                                       one.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:                        AN HON. MEMBER:
What?                                     What was your fourth choice?

MR. WARREN:                               MR. WARREN:
I said, if the shoe fits,      let him    Anyway, I would have to say if
wear it.                                  there   are,   Mr.    Speaker,     any
                                          members in this particular House
Now, Mr. Speaker, let us go back          who are sneaky and sleazy - I do
to what happened.     Just to show        not know if I am allowed to use
you, Mr. Speaker, what was given          those words, Mr. Speaker. If I am
to the hon. member for St. Barbe,         not, I withdraw them - and trying
i t was a copy of all this right          to be smart, I think t·hey . al:"e the
here, everything, right from the          Bobbsey Twins; they sit next to
first day he asked for it up to           each other down there, the member
the   last day.     Everything was        for St. Barbe and t)'le member for
duplicated  for. him and everything       Naskaupi. Mr. Speaker, for him to
else, itemized right down to a tee.       say that on      reasonable notice
                                          information should be given.
Mr. Speaker, one of the comments
from   the   hon.     gentleman   from     Mr. Speaker, I have no problem, as
Naskaupi,   who     brings    in  this     I said in my letter to the member
famous resolution, had to do with          for St. Barbe. They asked for the
a particular jacket I wore at the          information   and   they  got  the
Governor-G eneral's     residence    in    information .  It cost   hours and
Ottawa, where . I was representin g        hours of staff time to gather up
the Province at an Order of Canada        ·all the information for the past
Investiture for one of the most            two and a half years.
outstanding ladies in Labrador,
Dora Saunders.     I was there, Mr.       Mr. Speaker, this House has been
Speaker,        representin g       the   open now for the past month and a
Province, and the dress code was          half, and what really gets to me
that you had ' to wear a tuxedo.          is here he is asking for freedom
                                          of information and he has a leader
Now, Mr. Speaker, I had three             over there who will not tell
choices, as I told one of the             anybody where the extra money is



Ll271     April 27, 1988       Vol XL     No. 24                         R1271
coming from that he is being paid.            Express. ·n was my trip to Cold
                                              Lake, Alberta.    He never mentioned
Now, Mr. Speaker, surely goodness             one thing about it.     Why? Because
every member in this House should             I was in Cold Lake, Alberta, with
get information if he wants· it.              the     Minister        of     Rural,
At   the  time · the  election was            Agricultural        and      Northern
called    in    1985,   that   hon.           Development,     the    Minister   of
gentleman was     in  a  particular           Culture, Recreation and Youth, at
house in Goose Bay on election                the time,    and the Minister of
night and said to this particular             Environment  and Lands.
person, 'I am a Liberal today.    I
do not know if I wili be tomorrow             Mr.  Speaker, I should advise the
or not.•   That same person did not           hon~_ gentleman that I      was not
know whether he was elected to the            doing in Cold Lake, Alberta, what
Liberal Party or not on        that           his leader was doing in Davis
particular night and he said, and             Inlet last July.    I  was in Cold
I  think han. gentlemen opposite              Lake, Alberta, trying to promote
will know who it was said to, who             Happy Valley - Goose Bay, where in
was present at the time, and here             the past year alone there were in
he is now supporting a leader who             excess of 280 jobs.        Now, Mr.
will not give information to the              Speaker, can   the hon. gentleman
House.   Why not give information             honestly get up and say we never
to the people of Newfoundland and             brought in any work th·r ough our
Labrador?                                     trip to Cold Lake, Alberta? There
                                              were 280 extra jobs last ·year in
Once   in    a     while  I   get    the      Happy Valley - Goose Bay, in the
opportunity to. look WWF wrestling,           han. gentleman's district.
when I have time to spare.         There
is a person on there called the               The hon .   gentleman should look
Million Dollar Man.      I forget what        more carefully at some of      the
his   name     is,   Ted   DeBiasa    or      reasons why we · are tt·avell ing.
something like that.       I think the        Naturally    it   is   to  promote
Leader    of     the    Opposition    is      business in the Province.
something like him, so we can call
him the second Ted DeBiasa.                   The   han.   gentleman    made    the
                                              comment,     what      a       simple
Mr. Speaker, I am surprised that              resolution.   Yes, Mr. . Speaker, a
the hon. member for st. Barbe                 very simple resolution from a very
would make such remarks.          He has      simple individual.   I am now going
asked if     there were any jobs              to go through the resolution to
created      by       ministers        or     see if there is any way that I can
parliamentary                secretaries      support it:
travelling.    Let. me tell the han.
gentleman,    and    again     I   should     'WHEREAS the access to information
remind him      that     his    colleague     relating to Government operation
sitting     next      to     him,     who     is an essential element for the
represents    one    of    the    fastest ·   performance of duties of Members
growing towns      in his district,           of    the       House    of Assembly,
Happy Valley - Goose Bay, one of              particularly          the    Official
my    trips    which     I    found    so     Opposi ticin. '
interesting, that han. gentleman
never even picked up on, or never             Mr.   Speaker,   I    would   not  say
even discussed with The Sunday                'particularly        the      Official



Ll272     April 27, 1988         Vol XL       No. 24                          Rl272
Oppositio n,' I would say it is for        The gentleman said to me, 'I guess
all members of the Oppositio n.            you know the Liberal Oppositio n
And not only for members of the            has sent this over to us.'         I
Oppositio n,   but for members of          said, 'What?'    'Oh, yes,' he said,
Governme nt.    All members in this        'The Liberal Oppositio n did up a
House are    here to perform their         big package and sent it over to
duties   to    the  best   of  their       us.'   Now, Mr. Speaker, here is a
ability.                                   member of the Oppositio n who wants
                                           some informati on.
'AND   WHEREAS   this   informati on
should  be readily available to            AN HOM. MEMBER:
Members of the House of Assembly,          Because Wangersky is not allowed.
on reasonabl e notice, whether the
House is in session or not.'               MR. WARREN:
                                           Yes, Mr. Speaker, he is allowed.
Mr. Speaker,    I cannot agree with        Meanwhile , the bon. member was not
that.    The  hon. gentleman wanted        asking for it for his own purpose,
informati on, which I gave to him          because he did not do anything
in all sincerity , and in seven            wit~ it, he just took the package
days,    Mr.   Speaker,    the   bon.      a.nd passed it over to The Sunday
gentleman packaged i t all up and          ExPress.    Therefore , it is very,
passed it on to Russell, I think           very difficult to try to support
his   name    is,   of   The   Sunday      his   resolutio n.    And  not only
Express.                                   that, instead of researchi   ng the
                                           questions himself,. he referred it.
AN-HOM. MEMBER:                            to another member who did all the
Russell Wangersky .                        investiga tion into it.

MR. WARREN:                                'BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that the
I  do not know what his last name          regulatio ns be amended to provide
is .   I   know his first name is          that   any   charges,    which   might
Russell.      So   one   day     Russell   normally    apply   to    agents    or
called   me and began asking me all        agencies    outside   the   House   of
kin~s of questions for The Sunday          Assembly .'
Express.      Here   are   the     exact
words this· guy,   Russell, said.     He   Now, this is what is wrong, Mr .
said, ' I guess you    know ... ' -: now   Speaker: · . I    think     the     bon.
Russell is a reporter with The             gentleman    is    missing     in    his
Sunday Express.                            resolutio n when he says,         'might
                                           normally    apply    to    agents     or
AN HOM. MEMBER:                            agencies    outside   the    House    of
Russell Wangersky .                        Assembly .'    In   what     they    are
                                           doing, they are agents for The
MR • WARREN:                               Sunday Express.                            ,.
Honestly, it is a name that I
never heard around very many bays          Mr. Speaker, 'how can you support a
around Newfound land and Labrador.         resolutio n that has -

AN HOM. MEMBER:                            MR. RIDEOUT:
I think he is from Main, is he not?        (Inaudibl e) today, either.

MR. WARREN:                                MR. WARREN:
I do not think he is from Main, no.        That is right.



Ll273     April 27; 1988        Vol XL     No. 24                           Rl273
In fact, Mr. Speaker, I would not
be surprised if the hon. leader
does not get a few perks from the
owners of The Sunday Express.     I
would not at all be surprised.
Therefore,    Mr.   Speaker,  those
gentlemen     opposite    are   not
considered    members   under  this
resolution,   they are considered
agents.   And that is exactly what
they are, agents for Harry Steel
and his buddies.   That is what the
hon.    gentlemen    opposite  are.
Unfortunately, because . they have
indicated that, not only to me but
to other members here - they have
indicated they are just in here as
agents - I have no alternative but
to join with my colleagues and
definitely not support this kind
of motion.

With that, Mr.    Speaker,    I   adjourn
the debate.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. minister      has    adjourned
the debate.

Is   it  agreed   to   call       it   six
o'clock?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Agreed.

MR. SPEAKER:
It is no\1[ six o • clock.    The House
stands adjourned until        tomorrow,
Thursday, at 3:00 p.m.




Ll274    April 27, 1988           Vol XL     No. 24   Rl274
                                         CONTENTS

                             Statements by Ministers

Rt':1 s t or· at io n of his tori c NeuJmao_.B. ui l_g_i 11.9. :
Pr•emi.er· Peckford . . . . . . ... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. ..... ... 1.219
Ml". Gullage .... . ............ ......... . .. . . . .. . ...... ... 1220
Mr . Lo ng ..... ......... . . ........ . .... . . . . .. ... ....... .. l22 2
Ass ista nce to Sealers Co-op extended:
r"'r . I~ l.deou ·l~ .. . ............. ....... . ....-·... . ........ . ... 12 22
Ml'' . W. Car·'l:er ..... ............ ............ ..... ......... 12211-
Mr . Femuick ... : ... ............. . .. .... .. ............. .. 1226

                                    Oral Questions

Pay Equi:l;_y:
_
Clarification of the mandate of the steering
committee. Mr. Tulk, Mr. Sirnms .. .. .......... ... . .. -...... 1 2.?.7
Authority of·the steering committee.
Mr. Tulk, Mr. Simms ............. .... . ........... . .. . ... 12.?.8
Action to get process back in place.
Mr. Tulk, Mr. Simms ............. .... ............. ...... 1229
Nat i onal W fare Councjl__Kepo rt:
            el
Report states 27 percent of children in the
Province living in poverty. Mr. Efford,
Mr·. Tobin ..... .. .. ..... . .. . . ...... . ........... ..... ... . 1230
Steps to improve the situation : Mr. Efford,
Mr. fobi.n ............ ............ .......... .. . . ........ 1231
Actions to bring Newfoundland statistics up
to the national level . Mr. Efford,
Mr. Tobin . ... ... ......... .. ..... .. ... . ....... : ......... l232
Statistics indicate fRilure of prog~Rms .
Mr. S:l.rnmons, Mr. Effor·cl .. . . .. .. .... . ..... . ............ . 1233
_?pray- Progr~~m:
ts Environment advising Forest Resources.
Mr. Long, Mr. Russell ............. ...... ............. .. 1234-
Curtajl application of fenitrothion .
                                    ......... ............. . 1.236
Mr. Long, Mr. Russell ...... ... .. -
Requests wider use of Bt . Mr. Long,
Mr. R. AyJ:ward ........ . ............ ............ ... . .. . . 1236
.!:Lousing .COI"pora:t:i_9_rl :
Nl HC pr·ov:i.dJng l.~n d t.o pd.IH.:ti: e secto r .
Ml". Gullage, Mr· . Peach . . ....... . .. . . .. .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1237
                                             ·1t j , n Pr~ a r J. gate
Go v (;ll"rHn (;'l nl ·. ·i.nv o J. v e:~!MJ 1
D~w e 1 o p me n t . M,.. . Gu 1 J a g e , Mr· . Pe a c h . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 3 B



                                           Orders of the Day-


Private Member 1 s Day :

Mr . l<elland, begins debate on Motion 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1239
Mr . Si rnrns .... .. : .... .. ... .... .... . .... . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1245
Mr . Efford . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . .' . ... ...... .. . . ... l2 5 1
Mr· . r~ i d c~ o l.l ·t . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ·. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 59
Mt" . Furey . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1263
Mr . Warr en, concludes debate . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...... .. .... 1269

Adjournme nt ......... .... ... .. . . . . . . . . . . .. .. ........ . ... 1274-




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