MB transcript001 by JacksonJambalaya

VIEWS: 3 PAGES: 36

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     1            MR. BROWN:          He's t r y i n g       okay.        You're

     2    going t o —        I want t o s a y I l o a n e d y o u a l l

     3    t h a t money.

     4            MR. SHACKELFORD:             Say t h a t a g a i n .

     5            MR. BROWN:         I n s t e a d o f me g i v i n g t h e

     6    money t o Thomas, I'm g o i n g t o s a y I gave t h e

     7    money t o y o u , y o u g o t a p r o m i s s o r y n o t e .

     8   They're      n o t p l a n n i n g on y o u coming i n w i t h a

     9    p r o m i s s o r y n o t e s a y i n g y o u g o t t h e money,

10       okay.      What t h a t does i s •— i n y o u r              defense

11       i s , "Yeah, I b o r r o w e d     t h e money.        I tried to

12       c o n t a c t Thomas s e v e r a l t i m e s t o see i f we

13       c o u l d w o r k o u t some k i n d o f a payment t h i n g

14       and h e "         " t h e l a s t c o n v e r s a t i o n he had w i t h

15       me he s a i d he'd g e t back w i t h me, and t h a t ' s

16       been s i x y e a r s ago" o r w h a t e v e r i t i s . The

17       s t a t u t e o f l i m i t a t i o n s has r u n on i t ,     okay.

18       I t ' s not your r e s p o n s i b i l i t y    t o pay somebody

19       back.      You u n d e r s t a n d w h a t I'm s a y i n g ?    Okay.

20       I t ' snot         y o u know, i n f a c t ,       a t t h e time you

21       c o n t a c t e d him, y o u m i g h t have s o l d t h e

22       b u s i n e s s and g o t o u t o f t h e b u s i n e s s i f i t had

23       n o t worked o u t w i t h h i m on t h a t a s p e c t o f i t .

24       Do y o u see what I'm t r y i n g t o g e t y o u t o

25       understand?
                                                                                    2



     1            MR. SHACKELFORD:               Yeah.     I hear what you

     2    s a i d , Mike.       I j u s t keep t h i n k i n g a b o u t me.

     3    I'm n o t t e l l i n g t h e t r u t h i f I s a y t h a t , and

     4    t h a t ' s t h e o n l y t h i n g t h a t ' s r e a l l y g o t me.

     5    And why —        why do y o u w a n t me t o s i g n a deed

     6    o f t r u s t now.

     7           MR. BROWN:          I t ' s n o t a deed o f t r u s t .

     8    I t ' s a promissory note.              The same t h i n g y o u

     9   already d i d .

10               MR. SHACKELFORD:             W e l l , why do y o u want

11       me t o s i g n them now?

12               MR. BROWN:          Because I ' v e g o t t o have them

13       t o show y o u t h e money.

14               MR. SHACKELFORD:             W e l l , what about t h e

15       ones I a l r e a d y     signed?

16               MR. BROWN:         Those a r e w e l l .      Those     will

n        still    be a p p l i c a b l e .   Y o u ' r e n o t s i g n i n g them

18       as o f t h i s d a t e .     Y o u ' r e s i g n i n g them back as

19       o f 2000—

20               MR. SHACKELFORD:             But I already         signed

21       them.

22               MR. BROWN:         N o t t h e b i g one.

23               MR. SHACKELFORD:             Oh, you want me t o s i g n

24       one f o r t h e w h o l e t h i n g ?

25               MR. BROWN:         No. No. No. No. T h e y ' r e
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      1.    gonna be —          you'll     g e t one -- one w i l l be

     2      spaced back and t h e n one w i l l               be a f t e r ,

     3      something l i k e t h a t .         B u t i t ' s gonna be —

     4      i t ' s not going t o —            i t ' s a l r e a d y gonna be

     5      expired.

     6              MR. SHACKELFORD:             A l l r i g h t , Mike. L e t

     7      me ask y o u t h i s           and a n o t h e r    thing that I

     8      j u s t c a n ' t g e t o f f my m i n d .       Do y o u w a n t me t o

     9      say t h i s t o a judge?

 10                MR. BROWN:          Right.

11                 MR. SHACKELFORD:              And i f I —         i f 1 would

12         do s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t -- and I asked y o u t h i s

13         before          and t h e n t h e t r u t h comes o u t ~

14                 MR. BROWN:          How i s t h e t r u t h gonna come

15         out?      Y o u ' r e gonna s i g n t h e p r o m i s s o r y   note.

16         A l l t h e y ' r e gonna see --

17                 MR. SHACKELFORD:              Well, I d i d n ' t get t h e

18         money, t h o u g h .      And, y o u know, I d o n ' t          know

19         what t h e y a s k e d f o r a b o u t a c c o u n t i n g .    I still

20         don't understand           e x a c t l y what t h e y ' r e

21         referring       t o when t h e y s a y t h e y want t o see

22         accounting.          So i f a c c o u n t i n g   r e f e r s t o my

23         books and t h e y go back and check t h i s , t h e y ' r e

24         gonna see where I n e v e r g o t t h a t money.

25                MR. BROWM:          That's not t r u e .          That's n o t
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     1     true.

     2            MR. SHACKELFORD:             Why i s i t n o t t r u e ?

     3            MR. BROWN:         Because t h e y d o n ' t know where

     4    y o u g o t a l l y o u r o t h e r money.        You h a d so much

     5    o t h e r money coming, t h e r e ' s no way t h e y ' r e

     6    gonna know t h a t .

     7            MR. SHACKELFORD:             It's all—           t h e CPA's

     8    g o t i t a l l w r o t e down.

     9           MR. BROWN:          Okay.      Okay.       Okay. You

10       d o n ' t have a n y b u s i n e s s r e c o r d s t h a t go back

11       t h a t f a r anyways.

12               MR. SHACKELFORD:             My b u s i n e s s r e c o r d s go

13       a l l t h e way back t o '99.

14               MR. BROWN:         They d o n ' t know t h a t .

15               MR. SHACKELFORD:             W e l l , no, t h e y    don't

16       know t h a t .     Oh, boy. Why d i d n ' t y o u t e l l me

17       back t h e n when you g o t my a p p r a i s a l and

18       brought i t t o t h a t judge what you were r e a l l y

19       d o i n g , t h a t y o u was g e t t i n g a m i l l i o n i n s t e a d

20       o f j u s t t h a t p a r t f r o m me?

21              MR. BROWN:          You know, what I was d o i n g

22       was        t h e way I was d o i n g i t was —               Robinson

23       d i d n ' t care i f you p a i d any i n t e r e s t .         Okay.

24       The i n t e r e s t y o u were gonna pay —

25              MR. SHACKELFORD:             Who's R o b i n s o n ?
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     1              MR. BROWN:         The j u d g e .   Okay.        He w a n t e d

     7.    t o make s u r e t h i s i s a s e c u r e d i n v e s t m e n t , and

     3     t h i s i s a b o u t as s e c u r e as y o u can be. I t ' s

     4     still     a secured investment.               I t a i n ' t your

     5     fault.       I t a i n ' t my f a u l t Thomas d i d n ' t do

     6     w h a t he s h o u l d have done t o c o l l e c t t h e money.

     7             MR. SHACKELFORD:             Well, really,          what

     8     r e a l l y made i t bad was,          y o u know, I needed 1.2

     9    m i l l i o n w i t h 25-year      a m o r t i z a t i o n , and when we

 10       t a l k e d and you came t o me and o f f e r e d t h a t t o

11        me i n s t e a d o f me g e t t i n g i t f r o m t h e bank,

12        t h e n , y o u know, y o u had s a i d t h a t I was g o i n g

13        t o be a b l e t o g e t more, b u t n o t a t t h a t t i m e .

14        And t h e n more n e v e r came, and i t j u s t                 and

15        t h e n when I had t h a t p r o b l e m v n t h t h a t dad gum

16        c o n t r a c t o r o u t h e r e -- and t h a t h u r t , y o u

17        know.      I t j u s t -- I ' v e been beg, b o r r o w i n g ,

18        and s t e a l i n g e v e r y s i n c e .

19                MR. BROWN:          I understand t h a t .         I

20        understand t h a t .         B u t i f y o u do t h e way I'm

21        t a l k i n g a b o u t d o i n g , y o u ' r e n e v e r gonna be

22        o b l i g a t e d t o pay Tom b a c k .

23               MR. SHACKELFORD:              And I r e a l l y    don't

24        understand statue o f l i m i t a t i o n s ,            I ' v e never

25        experienced anything l i k e t h i s ,            a n d , I mean.
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     1    you^re           i t ' s a c t u a l l y l a w t h a t I d o n ' t have

     2    t o pay t h i s money back?

     3            MR. BROWN:          No, because he d i d n ' t see me

     4    i ntime.        I t ' s no d i f f e r e n t t h a n i f somebody

     5    s l i p s and f a l l s   out here on your p r o p e r t y o u t

     6    h e r e and s l i p s and f a l l ,      hurts      themselves

     7    r e a l l y bad and t h e y w a i t f o u r y e a r s .            Their

     8    statute o f limitations               has e x p i r e d .

     9           MR. SHACKELFORD:               Well, I t e l l       you, t h e

10       way —       until     r e c e n t l y b e f o r e I knew e v e r y t h i n g

11       t h a t I know now, I d i d n ' t f e e l t h e same way I

12       do now.        B u t now I r e a l l y —         t h e way Thomas

13       has a c t e d a b o u t t h i s and t h e way he p o s i t i v e l y

14       s t o p p e d c o m m u n i c a t i n g w i t h me, I r e a l l y      you

15       know, he has caused me some p r o b l e m s .                       So now

16       i t ' s n o t gonna b o t h e r me n o t t o pay.

17               MR. BROWN:          B u t , s e e , okay

18               MR. SHACKELFORD:              Not t h a t I never             will,

19       b u t I d o n ' t want t o be p r e s s u r e d where I have

20       t o . I f I do, i t ' l l        be on my t e r m s when I ™

21              MR. BROWN:           Okay.      Let's j u s t put i t t h i s

22       way. When we o r i g i n a l l y d i d t h i s w h o l e             thing,

23       t h e whole d e a l .      Thomas was gonna work w i t h

24       y o u i n e v e r y way.

25              MR. SHACKELFORD:              Yeah.
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     1             MR. BROWN:         Okay.       Listen      t o me a second.

     2    Okay.       I'm i n t r o u b l e   r i g h t now because I

     3    h e l p e d h i m and I h e l p e d y o u .       Okay.

     4            MR. SHACKELFORD;              I don't t h i n k i t ' s f a i r

     5    f o r h i m t o g e t o f f t h e hook.

     6            MR. BROWN:          I didn't       have t o do a n y t h i n g

     7    f o r e i t h e r one o f y o u .      I c o u l d have j u s t s a t

     8    t h e r e and g o t a b o u t a h a l f a m i l l i o n d o l l a r s

     9    i n f e e s f o r a l l t h e w o r k I done.

10                MR. SHACKELFORD:             T h a t ' s w h a t you

11       s h o u l d ' v e done.

12                MR. BROWN:         I n t h e end ~        w e l l , I would

13       have done t h a t e x c e p t I knew —               I trusted

14       Thomas, and I t r u s t e d y o u .           And t h e whole

15       t h i n g o f i t i s i s I l o o k a t t h e problem you're

16       h a v i n g i s i f Thomas had done what I asked him

17       t o do w i t h y o u numerous t i m e s , y o u w o u l d n ' t be

18       i n t h e boat you are.

19               MR. SHACKELFORD:              That's      right.

20               MR. BROWN:          I f he had t h r o w n h i s money

21       i n t o t h i s when I asked h i m t o do t h a t , y o u

22       w o u l d n ' t be i n t h e p r e d i c a m e n t y o u ' r e i n r i g h t

23       now. I t would have been g o i n g

24               MR. SHACKELFORD:              I ' v e been i n a

25       p r e d i c a m e n t t h e whole    time.
                                                                                     8



     1             MR. BROWN:          B u t t h e y w o u l d have made t e n

     2    t i m e s t h e i r money.       They w o u l d have made t e n

     3    t i m e s t h e money.        A l l I need now i s I —              when

     4    we b r i n g t h e s e o t h e r p r o m i s s o r y n o t e s t o b e a r ,

     5    t h a t ' s gonna b l o w them o u t o f t h e w a t e r

     6    because, see, Thomas i s gonna s a y , w e l l , y o u

     7    b o u g h t t h e s e new v e h i c l e s .    Demon's money

 8       d i d n ' t buy any o f t h e s e v e h i c l e s .       See, I h a d

     9   a bunch o f money coming t o me —

10               MR. SHACKELFORD:               Wait.      I don't

11       understand t h a t .          You s a i d t h e money t h a t

12       bought t h e v e h i c l e s .       That d i f f e r e n c e o f t h a t

13       m i l l i o n and what I g o t b o u g h t t h e v e h i c l e s .

14               MR. BROWN:          Right.        T h a t ' s what b o u g h t

15       a l l t h e v e h i c l e s and g o t Thomas some o t h e r

16       l a n d and some o t h e r s t u f f .          I t g o t him a bunch

17       o f cash.

18               MR. SHACKELFORD:              B u t y o u ' r e n o t gonna

19       show t h a t ?

20               MR. BROWN:          No. No.            I'm gonna show t h a t

21       y o u g o t t h e money.         See, Thomas c a n ' t sue y o u

22       f o r t h a t money.        I f he c o u l d , I w o u l d be a b l e

23       t o p r o t e c t y o u because o f a l l         t h e money he

24       g o t . B u t I c a n ' t do t h a t .         A l l y o u do i s s i t

25       t h e r e and say, " I       b o r r o w e d t h i s amount o f
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     1     money, y e s .       Why?      I t was a s e c u r e d

     2     i n v e s t m e n t ; gave Mr. Brown my a p p r a i s a l s ;        took

     3     them t o t h e j u d g e .      I t ' s my u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h e

     4     judge approved          everything."           And t h a t ' s

     5     e x a c t l y what —      t h e whole t h i n g .        The way I

     6     l o o k e d a t i t was t h i s way.         I f y o u had g o t t e n

     7     e v e r y t h i n g g o i n g , y o u w o u l d have had no

     8     p r o b l e m p a y i n g us t h e i n t e r e s t because y o u

     9    w o u l d have had an up and g o i n g b u s i n e s s .

10                 MR. SHACKELFORD;            Yeah.       That's       true,

11         Mike.

12                 MR. BROWN:         I understand.            You're

13        p r e a c h i n g t o t h e c h o i r r i g h t now.      I

14        understand.          I u n d e r s t a n d y o u , and I

15        u n d e r s t a n d e v e r y t h i n g w i t h Thomas.    So i f

16        Thomas —         y o u asked me why I d i d n ' t do i t t h e

17        o t h e r way.     W e l l , l o o k i n g back I w i s h I h a d .

18        Everybody w o u l d      have g o t t e n screwed b u t me.

19        Okay.      B u t y o u w o u l d n ' t have g o t h e l p .     You

20        w o u l d have l o s t    everything.

21                MR. SHACKELFORD:            W e l l , I d o n ' t know

22        that.     I mean, y o u know             ~

23                MR. BROWN:         The bank w o u l d have screwed

24       you.

25                MR. SHACKELFORD:            W e l l , I d o n ' t know t h a t
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     1    because, y o u know, t h e o t h e r bank —                 when I

     2    w e n t t o t h e o t h e r bank, t h e y d i d , b u t what

     3    h u r t me was I owed $5SO,000 a f t e r t h a t .               And

     4    when I go t o a bank t h e n t r y i n g t o b o r r o w

     5    money, t h e y see t h a t $550,000 and t h a t                threw

     6    up a r e d f l a g .     When I was w o r k i n g w i t h

     7   Trustmark        i n t h e v e r y b e g i n n i n g when

     8    Scuttenburg        ( p h o n e t i c ) was s t i l l   t h e r e , I had

 9        a good o p p o r t u n i t y o f g e t t i n g t h a t l o a n , a n d ,

10       yeah     —

11               MR. BROWN:         Who was t h e one t h a t was

12       w o r k i n g w i t h t h e guy down t h e r e on 1-55?

13               MR. SHACKELFORD:              Guinn o r G i n on t h e 2nd

14        floor.

15               MR. BROWN:         And t h a t was T r u s t m a r k    Bank?

16               MR. SHACKELFORD:              Yeah.

17               MR. BROWN:         They were f u c k i n g y o u .

18       T h e r e ' s no q u e s t i o n somebody was —            t h e y were

19       going a f t e r you.

20               MR. SHACKELFORD:             W e l l , I d o n ' t know,

21       y o u . I ' v e been d o i n g b u s i n e s s     w i t h them a

22       l o n g t i m e , s o m e t h i n g l i k e I S years when t h a t

23       happened, and, y o u know, t o t h i s d a y I s t i l l

24       don't    know t h a t t h e y w o u l d n o t have l o a n e d me

25       t h e money because, yeah, i t was t a k i n g some
                                                                                    11



     1    t i m e , b u t t h a t was a l o t o f money.           And, you

     2    know, I c o u l d have had somebody come i n w i t h

     3    a t t h a t t i m e t o as a p a r t n e r t h a t was s t r o n g

     4    t o c o s i g n a l o a n , b u t I was t r y i n g t o keep

     5    from doing t h a t .        And t h e n t h e y were t a l k i n g

     6    a b o u t , you know, an SBA         loan, which         I was i n

     7    t h e p r o c e s s o f maybe w o r k i n g on, b u t , anyway,

     8   when you come up w i t h t h i s ,          you know, i t d i d

     9    speed t h i n g s up.      And so I j u s t f o r g o t       about

10       t h a t and went i n t h a t d i r e c t i o n .      B u t I was

11       k i n d a t h i n k i n g t h a t I c o u l d ' v e g o t t e n more o f

12       what I needed t o make i t a l l w o r k .               But,

13       anyv/ay, t h a t ' s   history.        That's h i s t o r y     now.

14       I'm k i n d a , i n a way —         you know, a l l t h i s t i m e

15       e v e r y t h i n g ' s been l i k e a m y s t e r y t o me.    I've

16       been k i n d o f l i k e i n t h e d a r k , and t h e n when

17       i t g o t t o where I c o u l d n ' t g e t t h i n g s g o i n g

18       a g a i n because o f b e i n g cash f o r s t r a p p e d        —

19       s t r a p p e d f o r cash —    s t r a p p e d f o r cash, i t ' s

20       j u s t been a b i g q u e s t i o n mark o v e r me.          Well,

21       what i n t h e w o r l d , you know, how am I gonna do

22       this,   how am I gonna do t h a t , and e v e r y t h i n g

23       and t h e n Ken come i n t o h e l p me           again

24       thankfully.        And i t ' s j u s t now I owe more

25       money t h a n I s h o u l d have n e v e r owed.           But, you
                                                                                 12



     1     know, i t ' s s t i l l    -- I'm s t i l l

     2            MR. BROWN:         The t h i n g w i t h Thomas        —

     3    Thomas screwed up.              See, t h e t h i n g w i t h Thomas

     4    t h a t I have a p r o b l e m w i t h i s t h i s .

     5            MR. SHACKELFORD:            I don't want t o

     6    i n t e r r u p t you, b u t I ' v e been t h i n k i n g    about

     7    t h i s so much s i n c e y o u t a l k e d t o me t h e o t h e r

 8        d a y when y o u c a l l e d me f r o m t h a t      judge's

     9    office,      and I went back and t h o u g h t a b o u t

10       t h o s e m e e t i n g s t h a t I had w i t h Thomas; and I

11       t o l d Thomas e v e r y m e e t i n g I had w i t h h i m

12       b e f o r e I l e f t t h a t I w a n t e d t o see Demon

13       there.       And Demon was o n l y a t one m e e t i n g .             At

14       e v e r y o t h e r m e e t i n g he s a i d Demon c a n ' t make

15       i t o r Demon d o n ' t need t o be h e r e o r , you

16       know, we d o n ' t need Demon h e r e .              And I s t a r t e d

17       f e e l i n g t h e n t h a t s o m e t h i n g was g o i n g on, t h a t

18       he was t r y i n g t o e i t h e r g a i n o u t o f t h i s and

19       Demon n o t knowing          i t o r something,         and t h e n

20       t h e way he a c t e d i n t h e l a s t t w o m e e t i n g s —       I

21       never w i l l     f o r g e t t h e l a s t t i m e when y o u d r o v e

22       up o u t t h e r e ,   he w a n t e d t o h i d e me f r o m y o u .

23       And we shook hands when I l e f t a n d I t h o u g h t

24       had agreed on s o m e t h i n g , and t h e n I g e t a

25       l e t t e r from him a f t e r t h a t s a y i n g
                                                                                    13



     1    u n a c c e p t a b l e ; and I a i n ' t h e a r d f r o m h i m

     2    since.       I t r i e d t o g e t i n t o u c h w i t h him.         I

     3    t r i e d t o c a l l him.      I saw h i m o v e r t h e r e a t

     4    t h a t D o l l a r T r e e t h a t d a y and he a c t s l i k e h e

     5    d o n ' t know me, and t h e n when I r e c o g n i z e d h i m

     6    he runs o u t o f t h e s t o r e .

     7            MR. BROWN:         Do y o u have a copy o f t h e

     8    l e t t e r he s e n t you?

     9            MR. SHACKELFORD:            Oh, I ' d have t o f i n d

10       i t , Mike.

11                MR. BROWN:        What was i t ? A b o u t 2005?

12        2006?

13                MR. SHACKELFORD:            Back t h e n sometime,

14       yeah.      Or no, i t was 2007.              I t h i n k i t was

15       2007 t h a t i t was on t h e r e .          You know, we were

16       c o m m u n i c a t i n g back and f o r t h , and we w o u l d

17       come up w i t h t h i s d e a l and I w o u l d come up

18       w i t h t h i s agreement;       and he n e v e r w o u l d

19       a p p r o v e a n y t h i n g t h a t I w o u l d come up w i t h .

20       And he w o u l d n ' t come back w i t h a n y t h i n g . A l l

21       he was s a y i n g n o t         y o u know, t h e l a s t           thing,

22       y o u know, he s a i d was n o t a c c e p t a b l e .        I said

23       t h e l a s t t i m e we were t o g e t h e r , " W e l l , t h e n

24       y o u ' r e gonna have t o come up w i t h s o m e t h i n g

25       because I ' v e done e v e r y t h i n g I know I can d o , "
                                                                                     14



     1     And I n e v e r h e a r d f r o m h i m a g a i n .      B u t what

     2     r e a l l y g o t me i s why i n t h e w o r l d d i d he n o t

     3     w a n t y o u t o know I was t h e r e .           I mean, I was

     4     f i x i n g t o go t a l k t o y o u , and he g r a b s me by

     5     t h e s h o u l d e r and p u l l s    me b a c k o v e r i n f r o n t

     6     o f a v e h i c l e where y o u c o u l d n ' t see me. And

     7    you d i d n ' t leave.         You d i d n ' t l e a v e .    And t h e n

     8    was k i n d a l i k e p u s h i n g me t o w a r d my v e h i c l e ,

     9    What was t h a t ?        I d o n ' t know.        And t h e n    after

10        t h a t I d e c i d e d , heck, y o u know, i f he d o e s n ' t

11        want t o w o r k w i t h me, t h e n I'm j u s t n o t gonna

12        w o r r y w i t h t h i s anymore.          Oh, gosh.

13                MR. BROWN:          I f y o u do t h i s , t h e y c a n ' t

14        come back on you.              L e t ' s j u s t p u t i t t h i s way.

15        L e t ' s j u s t go t h i s   route.

16                MR. SHACKELFORD:               You know, i t ' s bad

17        enough t h a t I b o r r o w e d 550,000, and now y o u ' r e

18        w a n t i n g me t o s a y I b o r r o w e d a m i l l i o n .

19                MR. BROWN:         I t ' s even more t h a n         that.

20                MR. SHACKELFORD:               What?

21               MR. BROWN:          I t ' s a m i l l i o n t w o i s , what i t

22        comes down t o .         I t h i n k t h a t ' s how much I gave

23       him,

24               MR. SHACKELFORD:                You gave h i m a b o u t

25        550,000 t o o o r $650,000?
                                                                                15



     1            MR. BROWN:       Uh~huh.

     2            MR. SHACKELFORD:            He g o t t h a t much money?

     3    W e l l , what d i d you g e t ?

     4           MR. BROWN:        Screwed.

     5           MR. SHACKELFORD:             Well, I thought           that's

     6    how y o u d i d y o u r house.        You added o n t o y o u r

     7    house.

     8           MR. BROWN:       No. Tandy's ( p h o n e t i c )        deal

     9   g o t me my house.        The money I g o t             t h e money

10       X got —

11               MR. SHACKELFORD:            Thomas g o t $650,000?

12               MR. BROWN:       R o u g h l y somewhere i n t h a t

13       range.      I w r o t e h i m a c h e c k f o r 80-.     I forget

14       a l l t h e s t u f f I wrote him f o r .

15               MR. SHACKELFORD:            No wonder he d o n ' t w a n t

16       t o g e t exposed.

17               MR. BROWN:      I t ' s n o t a b o u t b e i n g exposed.

18       I j u s t s h o u l d n ' t have done w h a t I d i d a n d

19       bought     —

20              MR. SHACKELFORD:             Does t h e j u d g e know he

21       g o t t h a t money?

22              MR. BROWN:       No, A l l t h e j u d g e knows i s

23       he b o u g h t    I t h i n k t h e j u d g e t h i n k s he

24       b o u g h t a bunch o f c a r s .

25              MR. SHACKELFORD:             What a b o u t Hazard?
                                                                                   16



     1     Does he know?

     2            MR. BROWN:          He p r o b a b l y knows a b o u t t h e

     3    cars.      He p r o b a b l y d o e s n ' t know a b o u t t h e

     4    money.       Thomas has p r o b a b l y k e p t h i m i n t h e

     5    d a r k a b o u t t h e money.

     6            MR. SHACKELFORD:                L o r d , have mercy.

     7            MR. BROWN:          I t d o e s n ' t make a n y

     8    difference.          The money's i r r e l e v a n t .       Thisi s

     9    how i t a l l works up. When y o u come i n and y o u

10        t e s t i f y t h i s i s how much money I b o r r o w e d , a n d

11        t h a t ' s a l l y o u have t o s a y .       "Yes, I b o r r o w e d

12       i t . I borrowed i t t e n y e a r s ago."                Okay.

13       "Why d i d y o u b o r r o w i t ? I b o r r o w e d i t t o do

14       my b u s i n e s s o u t t h e r e . "    And when t h e money

15       was r e a d y         "And I had t o pay i t back, I

16       c o n t a c t e d Thomas."       I said,      "Look, I c a n ' t p a y

17       i t t h i s way, b u t I c o u l d s e l l      t h e business o r

18       we can work some k i n d o f d e a l o u t . And o v e r a

19       p e r i o d o f y e a r s , he w o u l d n e v e r work w i t h me

20       on a n y t h i n g , and, f i n a l l y ,    I just   said,    look

21

22               MR. SHACKELFORD:             Well, that part i s

23       true.

24               MR. BROWN:          L e t ' s j u s t p u t i t t h i s way.

25       A l l t h e y e a r s t h a t I d i d s t u f f f o r you
                                                                                   .17



     1    l e g a l l y , how much have y o u p a i d me?

     2            MR. SHACKELFORD:              Oh, good g r a c i o u s ,

     3    Mike.      I d o n ' t know.

     4            MR. BROWN:          Nothing.

     5            MR. SHACKELFORD:             No, I ' v e g i v e y o u

     6    $5,000 t h a t t i m e we was coming back f r o m                    —

     7    y o u remember t h a t t i m e we was coming back up

     8    Highway 49.           I ' v e paid you.          I g i v e you

     9    $5,000.        I g i v e y o u $5,000 t w i c e .

10               MR. BROWN:          Once.      I remember t h a t .

11               MR. SHACKELFORD:              B u t I have i t — no.

12       You p r o b a b l y    done a w h o l e l o t more f o r me t h a n

13       what I p a i d y o u f o r .

14               MR. BROWN:          Okay.      Okay.        So y o u can l o o k

15       a t i t i s that's              t h e money t h a t y o u ' r e

16       c l a i m i n g i s messed up i s money t h a t was owed

17       t o me t h r o u g h    legal     fees.

18               MR. SHACKELFORD:              $650,000?

19               MR. BROWN:         No. No.         No. No. No. No.

20       See, Thomas c o u l d n ' t come back on y o u on t h a t

21       anyway because t h e t h i n g o f i t i s , i f he sued

22       you        i f he l e g a l l y       even i f he l e g a l l y

23       could sue you, you would g e t c r e d i t f o r t h e

24       monies he g o t p a i d .         The j u d g e        okay.      I

25       can't t e l l    —     i f I did the full-fledge
                                                                                     18



     1    a c c o u n t i n g , t h e j u d g e w o u l d be on me t o t h e

     2    wall    because he'd s a y why d i d y o u do t h i s .

     3    W e l l , I h e l p e d Thomas o u t and I h e l p e d           Linus

     4    o u t . Well, l e g a l l y ,      y o u w e r e n ' t a b l e t o do

     5    t h a t , and I'd s a y y o u ' r e         r i g h t and I knew

     6    better.        And t h e j u d g e w o u l d l o o k a t me and

 7        s a y t h a t ' s k i n d a s t u p i d on y o u r p a r t .     I f you

     8    c o u l d have g o t t e n p a i d , you w o u l d n ' t       be i n

 9        t h i s predicament         r i g h t now, and I ' d s a y , y e a h ,

10       you're       right.

11                MR. SHACKELFORD:                What a b o u t t h i s   thing

12        t h a t y o u t o l d me y o u and Thomas was g o i n g                 into

13       p a r t n e r s a b o u t d e v e l o p i n g some p r o p e r t y o r

14       something,        and he s e t up t h i s a c c o u n t ?         That

15       was r i g h t a t t h e b e g i n n i n g and t h e n i t

16       dissolved.          I t didn't l a s t very long.

17               MR. BROWN:          No.      I t o l d y o u and h i m were

18       g o i n g i n t o a p a r t n e r s h i p , n o t me and h i m . You

19       and h i m .

20               MR. SHACKELFORD:             Oh.

21               MR. BROWN:          I a l w a y s wanted y o u and h i m

22       t o go i n t o p a r t n e r s h i p .

23               MR. SHACKELFORD:                 I d o n ' t t h i n k Thomas i s

24       t h e k i n d o f p e r s o n t h a t c o u l d w o r k and p a r t n e r

25       w i t h somebody e l s e u n l e s s he's r u n n i n g t h e
                                                                                     19



     1    show.

     2            NR. 8R0WN:         W e l l . I t h i n k he's —          I mean,

     3    I t h i n k he —       h i s i n t e n t i o n s were n o t

     4    honorable.

     5           MR, SHACKELFORD:              You know, t h a t         really

     6    g o t me because I had a l o t o f r e s p e c t f o r

     7   Thomas.         He came a c r o s s as a p e r s o n o f God.

     8   He t a l k e d l i k e t h a t , b u t h i s a c t i o n s   d i d not

     9   back up w h a t h i s t a l k was.           And I s t a r t e d

10       w o n d e r i n g , r e a l l y w o n d e r i n g , a b o u t i f he was

11       s e r i o u s a b o u t t h a t and —

12               MR. BROWN:          I ' l l g i v e y o u an example.

13       When he g o t q u i t e a b i t o f money, I asked h i m ,

14       I said,     "Look" — I knew y o u were h u r t i n g .                  I

15       said,    "Co t o L i n u s and see a b o u t d o i n g some

16       type o f partnership            w i t h t h i s money."         And I

17       f i g u r e d y o u may have done some t y p e o f d e a l

18       w i t h him.

19               MR. SHACKELFORD:            I d o n ' t know.          He n e v e r

20       d i d c a l l me,

21               MR. BROWN:         No. I know he d i d n ' t .             I

22       know he d i d n ' t .      He s a i d ,   no, he'd g i v e n y o u

23       t h a t money as i t was and, y o u know, s o m e t h i n g

24       like    that.

25               MR. SHACKELFORD:            He j u s t wanted t o keep
                                                                               20



     1    t h a t money.      Does Demon know he g o t t h a t ?

     2           MR. BROWN:           Oh, I d o u b t i t .   I doubt i t .

     3    I r e a l l y d o u b t i t . I d o n ' t know i f Demon

     4    knows.      I d o n ' t have a n y i d e a .

     5           MR. SHACKELFORD:             I t h i n k Demon was k e p t

     6    i n t h e dark from t h e beginning            on a l o t o f

     7    that s t u f f , i f not a l l o f i t .

     8           MR. BROWN:          Well, i nt h e beginning         he was

     9    because he had t o because he w a s n ' t s i d i n g

10       w i t h Thomas.       He was w i t h h i s b r o t h e r .

11               MR. SHACKELFORD:            Where's h i s b r o t h e r a t ?

12               MR. BROWN:          I have no i d e a .      I t h i n k he

13       j u s t wandered o f f and l e t somebody c o n t r o l h i s

14       money.      Well, i t

15               MR. SHACKELFORD:            How much d i d t h e y end

16       U p g e t t i n g o u t o f t h a t , Mike?

17               MR. BROWN:          I have no i d e a because, y o u

la       know, t h e y d i d n ' t    tell   me.    I mean, I have no

19       idea.

20               MR, SHACKELFORD:            A l l right.

21               MR. BROWN:          I f you do t h i s f o r me, y o u

22       and I a r e f r i e n d s    for life,

23               MR. SHACKELFORD:            W e l l , I mean, Mike,

24       we've been f r i e n d s f o r a l o n g t i m e anyway,         I

25       mean, w h a t t h e heck?
                                                                                     21



     1            MR, BROWN:         You j u s t need t o ~           this i s

     2    your    redemption       f r o m tne, a n d , l i k e I s a i d ,

     3    you're     b a i l i n g me o u t , o k a y .   Like I said, I

     4    s h o u l d n ' t have done w h a t I d i d h e r e .

     5           MR. SHACKELFORD:             No, y o u s h o u l d n ' t have

     s    now t h a t i t ' s t u r n e d o u t l i k e    this.

     7           MR. BROWN:         Well, I never expected i t —

     8    I n e v e r e x p e c t e d Thomas t o do w h a t he d i d .

     9           MR. SHACKELFORD:             And I d i d i t w i t h

10       e x p e c t a t i o n s d i f f e r e n t t h a n w h a t happened a n d

11       how i t t u r n e d o u t .     I t was a bad d e a l f r o m t h e

12        beginning,

13               MR. BROWN:         Do y o u h o n e s t l y b e l i e v e t h a t

14       i f I thought —          i f I didn't        t h i n k you could

15       make i t

16               MR. SHACKELFORD:            Heavens no. B u t I d i d

17       t h i n k t h a t I was g o i n g t o be a b l e t o g e t more

18       money.

19               MR. BROWN:         Yeah.

20               MR, SHACKELFORD:            T h a t was t h e —

21               MR, BROWN:        B u t Thomas r e f u s e d t o do i t .

22               MR. SHACKELFORD:            Yeah.        And my gosh        —

23       b u t I don't     know how much he                 why he d i d

24       t h a t much money, b u t t h a t was enough money

25       t h a t was more t h a n enough t h a n w h a t I needed
                                                                                      22



     1    t o make i t work.

     2            MR. BROWN:          So i f he had done what I

     3    asked      —

     4            MR. SHACKELFORD:              And i f     I c o u l d have g o t

     5    t h e l o n g t i m e t e r m s on i t ,     w h i c h w o u l d have

     5    been b e t t e r f o r them        anyway.

     7            MR. BROWN:          Right.         I f he had done what I

     8    asked h i m t o do where he w o u l d have went and

     9    d i d what he needed t o do w i t h y o u , y o u would

 10       have p a i d h i m back y e a r s ago and e v e r y t h i n g

11       w o u l d be f i n e o u t h e r e .      T h e r e ' s no

12               MR. SHACKELFORD:               You know, I ' l l        be 64

13       y e a r s o l d i n t w o months, and t h i s was t e n

14       y e a r s ago when I had t h e p i s s and v i n e g a r t o

15       make t h i n g s happen and s o much has happened.

16       I ' v e gone t h r o u g h so much s t r e s s and now I'm

17       h a v i n g p r o b l e m s w i t h my h e a r t , p r o b l e m s w i t h

18       breathing.         And, L o r d , have mercy how t h i n g s

19       have changed.

20               MR, BROWN:          T h i s i s w h a t I was t r y i n g t o

21       tell    you. T h i s i s t h e b e a u t y o f t h e whole

22       t h i n g i s y o u ' r e a s k i n g me c o u l d t h e y go back

23       and a s k f o r t h o s e r e c o r d s .     You s t i l l    got the

24       money.      You know, a j u d g e w o u l d have t o r u l e

25       t h a t y o u d i d n ' t g e t t h e money and, t h e r e f o r e ,
                                                                                  23



     1    he'd have t o s a y t h a t we c o n s p i r e d t o keep

     2    f r o m them k n o w i n g t h e r e a l f a c t s . And,

     3    therefore,        t h a t w o u l d be mean t h a t none o f t h e

     4    debt i s c o l l e c t a b l e .     So f o r t h e j u d g e t o s a y

     5    t h a t w o u l d be s t u p i d .    T h a t ' s why I'm s a y i n g

     6    this.      What has i t s p r o b l e m i s t h i s ,     Thomas

     7    d i c k e d around w i t h     t h i s s o l o n g t h a t he d i d

     8    not protect        himself.          I can t e l l   y o u how much

     9   money Thomas g o t f r o m me,

10                MR. SHACKELFORD:              W e l l , i s Hazard n o t —

11       a l l right.        Go ahead,

12                MR. BROWN;         I signed a promissory note

13       f o r $650,000 t e l l i n g Thomas t h a t t h a t ' s t h e

14       amount o f money t h a t I c o u l d o n l y           justify

15       L i n u s p a y i n g you b a c k based on ~           the other

16       t h i n g I t o l d Thomas i s t h e o t h e r 350- and 2 0 0 -

17       I s a i d t h a t y o u ' r e gonna have t o go a f t e r .

18       But t h a t ' s   t h e w h o l e t h i n g , and I t o l d h i m , I

19       said,     look, I said,           I d o n ' t owe —

20               MR, SHACKELFORD:              How l o n g has Hazard

21       been p r a c t i c i n g   law?

22               MR. BROWN:         He's been p r a c t i c i n g a w h i l e .

23       I mean

24               MR, SHACKELFORD:              Was he n o t aware o f t h e

25       statute o f limitations i nthis?                      What does he
                                                                                   24



     1     expect t o g e t o u t o f t h i s ?

     2             MR. BROWN:         He t h i n k s t h a t w i t h h i s

     3     r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h Dewayne —     see, he was h e r e

     4     when Dewayne Brown b o u g h t t h e s e c a r s f o r t h e s e

     5     guys, and, s e e , Dewayne i s gonna t h i n k we d i d

     6     this        s e e , h i s own g u y i s t i e d i n t o i t .

     7     Thomas i s t h e one t h a t b o u g h t t h e c a r s — g o t

     8     the cars.        He s o l d t h e c a r s .    What d i d he do

     9    w i t h t h e money he s o l d f r o m t h e c a r s ?

10                MR. SHACKELFORD:             He s o l d them?

11                MR. BROWN:          A l l t h o s e c a r s a r e gone.    He

12        sold a l l those cars.              A l l t h o s e Mercedes,

13        t h e y ' r e a l l gone.     He s o l d them.

14                MR. SHACKELFORD:             Even Demon's?

15                MR. BROWN:          Yeah.     They w e n t t h r o u g h a

16        bunch o f c a r s .       They had a l l k i n d o f d i f f e r e n t

17        cars.      I d o n ' t know what a l l o f t h e y were,

18        Thomas h e l p e d h i s o t h e r c h i l d r e n o u t ,   A lot

19        o f t h i s money went t o h e l p h i s o t h e r c h i l d r e n

20       out.

21                M R . SHACKELFORD:          He's g o t c h i l d r e n f r o m

22        another marriage?

23                MR. BROWN:        Well,     he was n e v e r         I mean,

24        yeah, he's g o t c h i l d r e n          he's g o t -- Demon

25        i s h i s youngest c h i l d .        He's g o t a bunch o f
                                                                                25



     1    older children,           Thomas i s a g r a n d f a t h e r .

     2            MR. SHACKELFORD:           I thought       he o n l y had

     3    one c h i l d .   Demon's b r o t h e r .

     4            MR. BROWN:        No, t h a t ' s n o t h i s c h i l d .

     5    Demon's b r o t h e r i s n o t Thomas' c h i l d .

     6            MR. SHACKELFORD: Oh.

     7            MR. BROWN:        A a r o n i s n o t Thomas' c h i l d .

     8   A a r o n was a —       I t h i n k Thomas a d o p t e d h i m , b u t

     9   t h a t was

10                MR. SHACKELFORD:           And Demon's m o t h e r

11        died-

12                MR. BROWN:        Right.

13                M R . SHACKELFORD:         B u t Thomas and h e r

14       divorced before          that.

15                M R . BROWN:     Oh, yeah, a l o n g t i m e ago.

16                MR. SHACKELFORD:           So Thomas was m a r r i e d

17        before?

18              M R . BROWN:       Yeah.     Thomas w e n t t h r o u g h a

19       divorce —          Thomas —      I d o n ' t know i f he was

20       married.       He had a bunch o f k i d s .           You

21       remember he changed h i s f a i t h .             He w e n t f r o m

22           he w e n t t o be a M u s l i m f o r t h e l o n g e s t

23       period o f time.          He changed h i s name.            In the

24       8 0 ' s , h i s name was Ocbad ( p h o n e t i c ) s o m e t h i n g .

25       He was a —         y o u know —
                                                                                    26



     1            MR. SHACKELFORD;               He was a M u s l i m ?

     2            MR. BROWN:           He changed t o t h e M u s l i m

     3    f ai t h .

     4            MR. SHACKELFORD:              I had no i d e a ,

     5            MR. BROWN:           And he changed h i s name.               I

     6    c a n ' t remember w h a t h i s name was.

     7            MR. SHACKELFORD:              Huh?    Wow!

     8            MR. BROWN:          You s e e t h e w h o l e t h i n g i s

     9    this.        The j u d g e i s t r y i n g   t ooverturn the

 10       c l o s i n g o f t h e e s t a t e , and t o do t h a t y o u have

11       t o a r g u e t h a t s o m e t h i n g was n o t made a v a i l a b l e

12       t o t h e previous judge.               That's    like the

13       accountant.            You know, X t o l d Dewayne, I s a i d ,

14       "Dewayne             I s a i d , "Your Honor, Judge

15       Robinson approved t h i s a c c o u n t i n g s , "         "Well, I

16       d o n ' t l i k e how t h e y ' r e done."        Well,    that's

17       notreally —             y o u m i g h t n o t l i k e them t h e way

18       t h e y were done.           I t ' s a closed estate.          B u t we

19       don't a l l o w people j u s t t o a r b i t r a r i l y      come

20       back and come b e h i n d          a n o t h e r j u d g e . See,

21       t h e r e ' s n e v e r been an o r d e r t o open up t h e

22       e s t a t e because t h a t ' s w h a t I w a n t e d .     I wanted

23       an o r d e r t o open up t h e e s t a t e .        What t h e y ' r e

24       doing i s they're doing a f i s h i n g e x p e d i t i o n ,

25       T h a t ' s what Dewayne i s t r y i n g t o do because,
                                                                                 27



     1    s e e , i f I had g o t t e n an o r d e r t o open up t h e

     2    e s t a t e , X w o u l d have a p p e a l e d i t .      What's t h e

     3    grounds?         E v e r y t h i n g was known.          See, when I

     4    d i d t h e a c c o u n t i n g , I p u t i n t h e r e about t h e

     5    real estate.           You have t h i s amount o f money.

     6    So t h e y s i g n —    Dewayne and -- I mean, Thomas

     7    and Demon s i g n e d o f f on i t -            T h e i r lawyer

     8    s i g n e d o f f on i t .

     9           MR. SHACKELFORD:                (Inaudible) or the

10       whole t h i n g ?

11               MR. BROWN:            The w h o l e t h i n g .

12               MR. SHACKELFORD:               So t h e j u d g e t h o u g h t I

13       got a l l that?

14               MR. BROWN:            Right.      Because, s e e , I

15       included the interest.                  T h a t ' s how I was a b l e

16       t o do i t .      Okay.        And so t h e w h o l e t h i n g o f i t

17       i s i s t h e y ' r e now -- see, y o u have t h i s

IS       a l r e a d y done.     Robinson approved i t .               So when

19       we come i n now and I s a y , l o o k , h e r e ' s            a l l the

20       p r o m i s s o r y n o t e s t h a t L i n u s g o t and t h e y add

21       up t o t h e monies I had c o n t r o l            over,     okay.

22       Thomas knew a b o u t a l l t h a t .           The C o u r t knew

23       a b o u t them.     Okay.        The c o u r t a p p r o v e d them.

24       Thomas n e v e r t r i e d t o c o l l e c t t h e money o r

25       t a k e t h e p r o p e r s t e p s t o c o l l e c t t h e money.
                                                                                  28



      1    I t w o u l d be no d i f f e r e n t   i f y o u had a CD. You

      2    j u s t do i t i n t h e w a t e r .    I t w o u l d be a

      3    noncollectable debt.              Okay.      You're o u t i s ,

      4    l o o k , a t t h e t i m e I was t r y i n g t o work        with

     5     Thomas I c o u l d have s o l d t h e b u s i n e s s , made

     6     more money, g o t o u t , and saved my h e a l t h .

     7     Because t h i s was a l l h a n g i n g o v e r my head, I

     8     never d i d i t u n t i l        I ' d l o o k a t Thomas and

     9     s a i d , look, you d i d n ' t —       y o u w e r e supposed t o

 10       g e t back t o me and y o u n e v e r d i d and now my

 11       understanding i s the s t a t u t e o f l i m i t a t i o n s

12        has e x p i r e d .

13                 MR. SHACKELFORD:           And y o u ' r e s u r e a b o u t

14         that?

15               MR, BROWN;         Yeah.      T h e r e ' s no q u e s t i o n

16        a b o u t t h a t one.

17               MR. SHACKELFORD:            There's n o t h i n g       that

18        c a n s t o p them?

19               MR. BROWN:         No. No. U n l e s s t h e y can

20        c l a i m i t was done under f r a u d .          T h a t we

21        fraudulently —           t h a t Thomas d i d n o t know a b o u t

22        t h e money.

23               MR. SHACKELFORD:            W e l l , Thomas knew a b o u t

24        t h a t dad gum l o a n .      T h a t d a y we went and had

25        t h a t l u n c h , I wanted    t o meet h i m b e f o r e we d i d
                                                                                 29



     1     T t . We w e n t and p i c k e d up h i s c a r a t w h a t e v e r

     2    you c a l l    that    place.

     3            MR. BROWN:           He s i g n e d   o f f on someone

     4    else*s promissory             n o t e , so t h a t ' s n o t an

     5    issue.        That's a nonissue.               I n fact,    the thing

     6    o f i t i s , that's not                y o u know, t h e y        can't

     7    g e t t h a t on t h a t .     T h e r e i s j u s t no way t h e y

     8    can g e t t h a t .    But t h e t h i n g     o f i t i s i s , when

     9    I come i n t o c o u r t —         and y o u ' r e    n o t gonna be

10       there —        and I show a l l t h e s e             promissory

11       n o t e s , okay.      One i s          t h e i r argument i s

12       gonna be, w e l l ,      what about t h e cars?               Well,

13       what a b o u t t h e c a r s ?      T h a t has n o t h i n g t o do

14       w i t h Demon's money.             I t has n o t h i n g t o do w i t h

15       Demon's money.           T h i s i s Demon's money            right

16       h e r e , and I can show Demon's money.

17               MR. SHACKELFORD;              I don't f e e l       good.

18              MR. BROWN:             I understand.            I f y o u do as I

19       a s k y o u e v e r y t h i n g ' s gonna be f i n e .       You'll

20       everything w i l l       be f i n e .

21              MR. SHACKELFORD:               What t i m e a r e y o u

22       coming o u t here Monday?                I ' v e g o t t o be a t t h e

23       Internal       Revenue S e r v i c e a t 9:00 Tuesday

24       m o r n i n g , and I have t o be a t t h e S e c r e t a r y o f

25       S t a t e ' s o f f i c e Monday; and I d o n ' t know w h a t
                                                                                  30



     1    time.

     2            MR. BROWN:         Okay.      L e t ' s do t h i s .

     3            MR. SHACKELFORD:             And Wednesday I o n l y

     4    have t o go back t o t h e S e c r e t a r y o f S t a t e ' s          —

     5    I mean, t o t h e I n t e r n a l     Revenue o f f i c e i f t h e y

     6    want me t o , w h i c h —         I t a l k e d t o t h e man

     7    F r i d a y , y e s t e r d a y , and I p r o b a b l y won't have

     8   t o go back.         We'll     p r o b a b l y wrap i t a l l up

     9   Tuesday.

10               MR. BROWN:          Okay.     What's y o u r      schedule

11       f o r l a t e tomorrow a f t e r n o o n ?     Tomorrow

12       evening?

13               MR. SHACKELFORD:             I d o n ' t t h i n k I ' l l be

14       t i e d up o r a n y t h i n g —     anywhere.

15               MR. BROWN:          I'll    c a l l y o u i f I have t h e

16       s t u f f done.      I'm g o i n g back t h r o u g h t h i s   stuff

17       and make s u r e I a i n ' t s c r e w e d up on s o m e t h i n g ,

18       s o I'm c h e c k i n g .

19               MR. SHACKELFORD:             J u s t c a l l me, and A n g i e

20           Andrea w i l l     be h e r e t i l l   5:00. So j u s t

21       c a l l her.     My c e l l phone's n o t w o r k i n g .       Well,

22       I mean, i t works, b u t I c a n ' t h e a r i t r i n g .              I

23       g o t t a l o o k a t it»     I c a n ' t hear p e o p l e h a r d l y

24       talk.     B u t i f I'm a t t h e S e c r e t a r y o f S t a t e ' s

25       office,     she'll     know, and I ' l l      be t h e r e .    I fI
                                                                                     31




     1    am t h e r e , I w o n ' t be t h e r e l a t e r t h a n 5

     2    because t h e y s h u t i t down.

     3            MR. BROWN:         A r e you t h i n k i n g you're         just

     4    gonna s e l l ?

     5            MR. SHACKELFORD:            Huh?

     6            MR. BROWN:        A r e you t h i n k i n g t h e

     7    S e c r e t a r y o f S t a t e ' s o f f i c e i s gonna make y o u

     8    sell?

     9           MR. SHACKELFORD:             No. No. T h e y ' r e n o t

 10      gonna make me s e l l .          W e l l , now I s a y t h a t .        I

11       d o n ' t know.     The o n l y t h i n g t h a t I know f o r

12       s u r e i s t h e y c a n t a k e my p r e - n e e d l i c e n s e

13       away.     And u n t i l    I get that t r u s t that             they

14       want e n t e r e d , w h i c h i s a b o u t $50,000, and —

15       o r t h e y c o u l d l e t me have some more t i m e ,

16       which i s what I sent a l e t t e r a s k i n g f o r .

17              MR. BROWN:         Why d i d t h e y change           —

18       because y o u had t h i s e x t r a l a n d t h a t i s n o t

19       encumbered b y t h e c e m e t e r y .        I t ' s cemetery

20       p r o p e r t y , b u t i t ' s n o t encumbered b y a

21       cemetery.       T h a t s t u f f up t h e r e on t h e

22       hillside.       T h a t s t u f f u p on t h e h i l l s i d e ,     that

23       r i g h t t h e r e , y o u d o n ' t have any g r a v e s up

24       t h e r e , do you?

25              MR. SHACKELFORD:             There's graves a l l over
                                                                                   32



     1    on t h e o t h e r s i d e o f t h e r o a d .

     2            MR. BROWN:          B u t I'm t a l k i n g a b o u t    going

     3    up t h a t way. You c a r v e d o u t w h a t ?            Seven and

     4    a h a l f acres,       d i d n ' t you?

     5            MR. SHACKELFORD:                 Something l i k e      that.

     6    E v e r y t h i n g on t h e o t h e r s i d e o f t h e r o a d i s

     7    active     b u r i a l ground f o r t h e c e m e t e r y , and

     8    i t ' s n o t i n c l u d e d on t h i s s i d e .

     9           MR. BROWN:           Right.

10               MR. SHACKELFORD;                  B u t t h i s i s cemetery

11       t o o . According          t o the Secretary           o f State,

12       t h i s whole place i s a cemetery.

13               MR. BROWN:          What I'm s a y i n g ,       though, i s

14       — I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t , b u t a l l I'm s a y i n g i s ,

15       t h e way y o u d i d b e f o r e and t h e y a l l o w e d       you t o

16       do i t was, y o u r money p r o t e c t i n g          t h e perpetual

17       c a r e was t h a t a d d i t i o n a l     p r o p e r t y y o u had.

18               MR. SHACKELFORD:              No.       I t was t h i s

19       p r o p e r t y , t h e whole    place.

20               MR. BROWN:          Okay.         Okay.     I thought i t

21       was t h e p r o p e r t y up t h e r e .

22               MR. SHACKELFORD:              No.       No. The money

23       t h a t I had —

24              MR. BROWN:          Seven and a h a l f a c r e s has no

25       deed o f t r u s t on i t a t a l l .
                                                                                     33



     1             MR. SHACKELFORD:               No. They c a n ' t have.

     2            MR. BROWN:           Right.        Those o t h e r p l a c e s ,

     3    t h e y r e l e a s e i t as you s e l l        a lot.

     4            MR, SHACKELFORD:               Can't do i t .

     5            MR. BROWN:           You c a n ' t do t h a t anymore?

     6            MR. SHACKELFORD:               No. You n e v e r c o u l d do

     7    t h a t on c e m e t e r y p r o p e r t y .

     8            MR. BROWN:          I t h o u g h t t h a t ' s what t h e y

     9    did before ~           t h a t t h e y were d o i n g     that.

 10      Okay.       That's       fine.

11                MR. SHACKELFORD:              A cemetery               cemetery

12       p r o p e r t y c a n n o t be m o r t g a g e d , c a n ' t be used a s

13       collateral,         c a n ' t be used as a n y t h i n g o t h e r

14       than s e l l     i t for burial.            That's     i t . And t h e

15       S e c r e t a r y o f S t a t e has g o t t e n so s t r i c t on

16       this that —           heck, up i n B o o n e v i l l e up t h e r e ,

17       Wayne H e i g h t t h a t I know had t w o c e m e t e r i e s .

18       And I knew t h a t h i s day was coming because I

19       knew t h a t he was d o i n g a l o t o f s t u f f under

20       t h e t a b l e , and he g o t c a u g h t ;      and I f o r g o t how

21       much i t was i n p e r p e t u a l c a r e and some o t h e r

22       s t u f f and he d i d n ' t have t h e f u n d s t o do i t .

23       So t h e y t o o k h i s c e m e t e r i e s .    Now, a n o t h e r o n e

24           w a i t a minute.          Maybe t h e y d i d n o t t a k e h i s

25       cemeteries.          Maybe h i s a r e t h e ones where t h e y
                                                                                  34



     1     d i d n o t g i v e h i m back h i s p r e - n e e d l i c e n s e and

     2     he c o u l d n e v e r s e l l   pre-need a g a i n .      But

     3    t h e r e ' s a n o t h e r one where t h e y t o o k t h e

     4    cemeteries,         and t h e y t o o k them and s o l d i t .

     5    B u t Wayne H e i g h t , maybe t h e y j u s t d i d n ' t g i v e

     6    him h i s pre-need l i c e n s e           permanently.

     7            MR. BROWN:          You s a i d y o u c a l l e d o v e r t o

     8    t h e courthouse         and t h e y s a i d t h a t y o u r name

     9    was m e n t i o n e d on s o m e t h i n g ?

10                MR. SHACKELFORD:             When I g o t t h a t      thing

11        i n t h e m a i l y e s t e r d a y o r whenever i t was, i t

12       was so u n u s u a l     g e t t i n g a summons o r g e t t i n g a

13       n o t i c e t e l l i n g me t h a t a l a w y e r i s good

14       f r i e n d ' s w i t h t h e judge.       I didn't        understand

15       a n y t h i n g a b o u t t h a t , s o I t h o u g h t ; and I asked

16       h i m what was g o i n g on.           And t h e y j u s t w e n t

17       down t h e l i n e and t o l d me t h a t t h e y were

18       missing t h i s f i l e ,      missing t h a t i n t h e f i l e ,

19       and you have s o m e t h i n g h e r e where y o u have t o

20       be i n c o u r t on t h e 1 s t .        And I s a i d ,    "What do

21       y o u mean?"        I s a i d , " W e l l , I d o n ' t know

22       anything about t h a t . "            He s a i d ,   " W e l l , i t says

23       r i g h t h e r e t h a t you were s e r v e d p a p e r s "     —

24       " t h a t p a p e r s were g o i n g t o be s e r v e d ,    which

25       y o u s h o u l d have a l r e a d y r e c e i v e d . "   I haven't
                                                                                  35



     1    received anything.

     2            MR. BROWN:          That's t h a t .        No. T h a t ' s

     3    t h a t notice o f hearing.                T h a t ' s w h a t t h e y have

     4    on i t .

     5            MR, SHACKELFORD:              Why i s i t s a y i n g

     €    t h e r e ' s a n o t i c e o f h e a r i n g t h a t , y o u know, i n

     7    case I'm i n t e r e s t e d i n g o i n g , b u t I d o n ' t have

     8    t o go? Why i s i t even t e l l i n g y o u t h a t ?

     9            MR. BROWN:          Well, t h a t ' s j u s t a noticeo f

10       hearing.         I t ' s n o t a summons.           A summons w o u l d

11       have t o be i s s u e d by t h e c o u r t , and i t w o u l d

12       have t o be s e r v e d on y o u .            I f he had a summons

13       i s s u e d , he w o u l d have t o send me a copy o f i t .

14       I f y o u g o t a summons s e r v e d on y o u i n t h e n e x t

15       day o r so —          l e t me p u t i t t h i s way.           I t would

16       be v e r y h a r d f o r them t o g e t a summons s e r v e d

17       on y o u .     I f t h e y i s s u e d a summons, he c o u l d

13       file    a m o t i o n t o f a u l t y o u because y o u a r e i n

19       a m e e t i n g w i t h t h e IRS.

20               MR. SHACKELFORD:              So even i f t h e j u d g e i s

21       t h e one t h a t d i d i t .

22               MR. BROWN:          The j u d g e    can't trump t h e

23       I R - - he c a n ' t t r u m p s o m e t h i n g   previous.

24               MR. SHACKELFORD:              Well, a r e n ' t you

25       supposed t o be a l l o w e d         a c e r t a i n amount o f
                                                                                36




     1    t i m e t o prepare f o r something            like     that.

     2           MR. BROWN:         The j u d g e c a n i s s u e a summons

     3   f r o m t h e bench.

     4           MR. SHACKELFORD: Oh.

     5           MR. BROWN:         Whether i t ' s a p p l i c a b l e o r

     6   n o t i s two d i f f e r e n t    things.

     7           MR. SHACKELFORD:            I f I d o n ' t g e t served

     8   and I d o n ' t show up I'm n o t i n t r o u b l e .

     9           MR. BROWN:         No. Even i f t h e y d i d s e r v e a

10       summons and t h e y d i d n ' t s e r v e i t on y o u , y o u

11       w o u l d n ' t be i n t r o u b l e even i f t h e y p e r s o n a l l y

12       serve you.

13              MR. SHACKELFORD:             A l l right.       I'm ready

14       t o go home.

15              MR. BROWN:         B u t w h a t I'm s a y i n g i s , t h e

16       ~- (audio ends).

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