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					Ouch Podcast #30 – August 2008 bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast Presented by Mat Fraser and Liz Carr The Ouch Podcast is a download from the BBC. For more information, and our terms of use, go to bbc.co.uk/ouch. [Jingle] You’re so special we’ve made a podcast for you Disabled people can have fun too They can do anything we can do Say thank you to the BBC Dry your eyes and listen in To people just like you Confined to a website The Ouch Podcast

MAT

Ooohhh! I‟m Mat Fraser.

LIZ

I‟m Liz Carr.

MAT

It‟s August 2008 God damn let‟s have some fun on this SUMMER TIME podcast.

LIZ

In this month‟s show news, music, a new quiz and a soap opera?

MAT

Hm we always hear that people with learning difficulties love soap operas. Well we‟re going to put this to the test with the stars of a new online soap from Great Holm, a supported living development. They‟ll be here in about 15

minutes.

LIZ

It‟s time to battle the famous Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable quiz has gone on holiday for a little while and Disability Wars returns, find out who wins as we pit disability against disability.

MAT

We‟ve been asking you to fill in lifestyle questionnaires on the website, we‟ll be reading out some of your answers.

LIZ

Last month you voted for the music you want to hear at the end of the show. Here‟s the winner… [Music clip] It‟s Doctor Who by Dele Fakoya and you can here it in all its glory at the end of the hour.

MAT

And there‟s lots of chat besides, bbc.co.uk/ouch is our website, please visit us very often. This is our 30th podcast.

LIZ

Wow!

MAT

There are 29 others to listen to all archived for your convenience.

LIZ

I think I might do that too. Rob Crossan…

ROB

Yes.

LIZ

… you‟re in the studio hello.

ROB

That‟s my Friday and Saturday night taken care of, I‟m going to listen to all 29 podcasts.

LIZ

Hm, hm, hm what listening eh? So are you all right Rob?

ROB

Fine thank you yes. I‟ve just been away as usual but I don‟t want to show off about it and neither of you care anyway.

MAT

No come on…

LIZ

No we don‟t...

MAT

… where you‟ve been this time?

LIZ

… move on.

MAT

Where you‟ve been this time?

ROB

I‟ve been in Italy and I‟ve been in North Carolina. Yeah it‟s all quite hick but not too hick, it‟s a nice middle ground between Mississippi and somewhere more sophisticated.

LIZ

I like the way you wandered in here looking a bit kind of Huckleberry Finn in your straw hat and your check shirts.

ROB

I‟m marrying a southerner very soon from the deep south of the USA so yeah expect more of the same in the next few months.

MAT

But do you actually have to wear the KKK hood that‟s what I‟m asking?

ROB

It depends really, it‟s nice to get that out of the way and then you just see how you react to it.

MAT

One this we don‟t condone on this website or podcast even is racism. Thank you. Although I have got a good racist joke. What do you call a Frenchman with sandals? Philippe Philoppe!

LIZ

Oh it‟s children‟s hour how nice.

ROB

Can I just tell you one thing, what do you call the deer that‟s had both of its eyes gouged out?

MAT

Oh I know this one.

ROB

No eye deer.

MAT

Oh and it‟s a disability as well Liz.

LIZ

What do you call a deer with no eyes and no legs?

MAT

Go on.

LIZ

Still no eye deer.

MAT

The old ones are the worst ladies and gentlemen.

LIZ

So come on Rob, what‟s been happening in the world of disability in the last month?

ROB

Disability news, right okay.

LIZ

Dud do, dud do, dud do, dud do, do do doo pop. Thank you.

ROB

If you‟ve liked to thank producer, Damon Rose, for the fact that no budget has been spared with this podcast…

MAT

I‟ll do fake ticker tape noises…

ROB

… once again.

LIZ

Ticker, ticker, ticker, ticker.

ROB

As we sit in our cupboard box underneath the West Way for the 30th month running.

LIZ

Speaking through a plastic cup it‟s not doing bad.

ROB

A guy who I think we have to, have to have on the show, in the near future, is called Michael Savage and he works for a talk station in the USA. And this guy is amazing; he works for the Talk Radio network and…

MAT

Oh is this the one that‟s been like really savage about disabled people?

ROB

It‟s Savage by name, it‟s savage very much by nature. Here are a few of his quotes in the last few years.

MAT

Okay.

ROB

These are amazing. This is from July this year. “High levels of asthma impacting minority children are because the children get extra welfare if they‟re disabled.” “The handicap workers” at a café which he knows called „The Phoenix Café‟ “they would drool and put dung in diners‟ food”. Savage made up names for the food on the menu so that just „The Nutburger‟. He calls his political opponents, “The generate slime bags with mental disorders and some of them have viruses like „Leukaemia‟”. And the autism lobby

of devastated parents is, “Just a scam to get more money”. And my favourite one of all is a personal anecdote he related a few years ago on his show. He said that when he was younger he touched the hand of a midget (dwarf). It really freaked him out and since that episode he doesn‟t like public places. This guy‟s amazing so we have to try and get him to London, mainly well because I think it would be a really good debate, but secondly, because I really want to see Mat try and kill someone.

MAT

But I wouldn‟t, I mean, but why hasn‟t, I mean have people complained and asked to take him off the air or is he like really popular like Howard Stern or something?

LIZ

Do you know I actually thought it would be worse, when I saw the headline I did think what he said would be worse isn‟t…

MAT

Like kill disabled people.

LIZ

… that awful? Well yeah I did. Because that kind of thing that you said, I think a lot of presenters and people in the media and whether it‟s papers…

MAT

Normals you mean?

LIZ

They say that kind of thing, you know. I was less shocked

when you just said that, to be honest.

ROB

Really? But I‟ve never heard anything like that from a UK even… to be honest…

LIZ

Don‟t you listen to Radio 2?

ROB

It made me pine for John Gaunt quite frankly and James Wiles.

MAT

What‟s Chris Moyles‟s record on disability because we know how he is about the „G‟ word? What‟s he on…

ROB

I don‟t listen to Chris Moyles I have to say.

MAT

Actually nor do I.

ROB

What my EQ… my IQ be in double figures.

MAT

Very good point. No one does listen to Chris Moyles.

ROB

He‟s just shed 500,000 listeners hasn‟t he?

MAT

Yeah.

ROB

And he sent out a search party intent on finding them.

MAT

Face it, he‟s pretty much a ghost of the past. So…

LIZ

Apparently he‟s only 7 million now so…

MAT

Only.

LIZ

… so only slightly more than our listenerships.

ROB

Oh really I thought we were trouncing him.

LIZ

Well okay. I like this one, “A sick fire fighter is not so sick,” what‟s this about?

ROB

Okay, right this month‟s entry into the Disability Darwin Awards which…

LIZ

Okay this is what we like.

ROB

… will get better and better. This was a fellow called Albert Arroyo

LIZ

Nice.

ROB

I think that‟s right, this is from the Boston Globe by the way. He‟s a fireman who was… he injured himself in an incident which actually nobody else at the fire station witnessed. Doctor told him that he was permanently disabled and could never work again. Claiming his full salary, tax free should I add, until his boss caught him on You Tube entering a body building competition in which he came 8th. So not that good, obviously, maybe the injury‟s still giving him a bit of jip, but good enough to enter the body building competition. So yeah again…

LIZ

Yeah but maybe it was the body building competition in the Paralympics?

ROB

No it wasn‟t.

LIZ

No?

ROB

Definitely not. Let me find the name of the… what was the name of the actual competition? It was the 2008 Pro Natural American Championships.

LIZ

Okay...

ROB

Nothing to do with disability...

LIZ

… fair point.

ROB

… in that title.

LIZ

Fair point.

ROB

So again, as we keep on saying, if you‟re going to fraudulently claim disability benefit just stay at home, don‟t keep on entering things like body building competitions, especially if it‟s going to get posted on You Tube, you‟ll get caught.

MAT

But if he‟d done it for the Paralympics it would have been okay?

ROB

It would‟ve been fine. It would‟ve…

LIZ

Yeah, no it would…

ROB

… been fine.

LIZ

… wouldn‟t it, that‟s the thing because you can still be in the Paralympics and get your disability living allowance.

ROB

Can you really?

MAT

Because it‟s an amateur competition and …

LIZ

Why couldn‟t you?

MAT

… not a professional.

LIZ

You know. Well I don‟t think it matters if there‟s still things that you can‟t do or need help with you might be able to lift a weight, but if you can‟t walk or if you need assistance to get dressed afterwards, I mean, you‟d still… do you know what I mean it isn‟t that straight forward actually. It‟s not like you can do something that people think, “Oh well you‟ve got to be really fit to do that,” maybe you can but you might still qualify for disability living allowance. That‟s a bit serious you‟re looking at me like, “Oh she‟s just brought it down into a serious level there‟s nothing funny about that.”

MAT

No, not at all.

ROB

That‟s for Panorama, Liz. God, me and Mat are trying to have a laugh here. Anyway…

MAT

What the hell is all this about inclusive toys Rob?

ROB

That‟s better, slightly better. These are Down‟s Syndrome dolls.

MAT

Agh ahhhh!

ROB

Why the roar?

MAT

Because they‟re not being made… anyway go on let‟s hear the story?

LIZ

Because they‟re what I want to know what you…

MAT

Well I‟m imagining their not made by people with a lot of disability consciousness that‟s all I‟m saying.

LIZ

Do you think they‟re all…

MAT

Pray go on?

LIZ

… do you think they‟re always smiling?

MAT

Pray go on.

ROB

Well do you want to hear about the attributes these…

LIZ

Oh God yes.

ROB

… Down‟s Syndrome dolls have?

LIZ

Yes.

MAT

Yes.

ROB

Okay they have small ears set low on the head. Shortened fingers, slightly protruding tongues, almond shaped eyes and an incision near the heart.

LIZ

No!

MAT

Oh my God.

LIZ

No way.

MAT

This is so… what country has this come from?

ROB

This is from South Carolina in the USA but they‟re going to be on sale through a website quite soon, I don‟t think I‟m going to…

MAT

Down‟s Syndrome…

ROB

… give the name of the website frankly.

MAT

… dolls!

LIZ

And that‟s because a lot of people with Down‟s Syndrome have heart surgery or something?

ROB

Exactly.

MAT

It is actually a well known attribute of the condition is to have a weak heart.

LIZ

So do we want dolls that look like us is it import--…

ROB

I just think disability dolls are a bad idea, because as much as we can sit here as liberal independent readers and say, “Oh isn‟t that empowering” the truth is kids in your average state primary school are a little bit more cruel and I just don‟t…

MAT

Let‟s tie up the disability doll.

LIZ

Let‟s sit them in the segregated Wendy House.

MAT

There‟s a whole like Prisoner of War camp going on.

LIZ

Of all the disabilities. Let‟s gas…

MAT

The disability dolls.

LIZ

Let‟s put them in the oven, it‟s a little toy oven.

ROB

Well I don‟t know what schools are like these days, but when I was at school there was a fair amount of well you know all the words that we know, you know, epifits if you got a little bit angry.

MAT

No totally.

ROB

Christy Brown gags and all that. And if schools are like that now these disability dolls haven‟t got a prayer I don‟t think.

LIZ

Are you just jealous because there‟s not a thalidomide doll?

MAT

Yes it‟s plain and simple, I want there to be thalidy dolls with retractable limbs.

ROB

Well I‟ve got to sell that probably would sell better than an albino doll wouldn‟t it?

MAT

I don‟t know it depends what...

ROB

Let‟s put it to the test.

MAT

… extras you‟ve got. It‟s all about the little accoutrement isn‟t it like the wigs and the clothes and everything. What about you? What kind of doll would… oh yeah we already

have lesbian dolls. Anyway, so…

ROB

I thought we were going to get through one podcast without…

LIZ

One podcast.

ROB

… reference to the change.

MAT

I was joking. I love your change, I love the new you.

ROB

We all love it.

MAT

I‟ve embraced it fully, not perhaps as fully as you have but I‟ve embraced it. What doll would you have Liz? You‟ve got to do the last article so quickly.

LIZ

What doll would I have?

MAT

Yeah what would your doll be called because of your weird…

LIZ

I‟m not telling you. One day…

MAT

No I want to know what you‟d call it Liz because you‟re the

witty comedian with a sound bite in every phrase.

ROB

And me and Mat are pretty clear - Albino, Thalidomide. Not really sure how can we label you…

LIZ

I have nothing funny to say.

ROB

Doll-wise? Wheelchair dolls?

MAT

No.

LIZ

No. I have nothing funny to say on this. Move on.

MAT

I know it‟s because you‟ll never ever say what‟s up with you will you?

LIZ

No.

ROB

Are you…

MAT

I think you‟re a fake.

ROB

… genuinely getting peeved with us now?

LIZ

No not at all.

ROB

You are aren‟t you?

MAT

You‟re a fake. Fake. Fake.

ROB

Okay moving on.

LIZ

I‟m going to be on next month‟s Darwin Awards, Disability Darwin Awards. “She got loads of work just from being a cripple.”

ROB

As a so-called stand up comedian.

LIZ

But actually she would run up and down the stairs.

MAT

I‟m actually not going to talk to you now or say anything until you say what it is.

ROB

Yeah let‟s shall we, let‟s go on strike.

MAT

Okay.

ROB

We‟re now going to have a girl in a wheelchair playing noughts and crosses with a clown. The Ouch test card.

LIZ

(Singing test card tune) (whistling and singing)

MAT

Ech ech cut, no more of that.

ROB

Copyright issues, copyright issues.

LIZ

Oh, but it‟s BBC.

MAT

No the song was not owned by the BBC. I don‟t think we want to pay PRS on that.

ROB

Mat, I think she‟s beaten us…

MAT

Okay.

ROB

… we can‟t do it we‟re not going to get it out of her are we?

MAT

Let‟s have your last one before you have to go away? Oh um what‟s all this GUFF about disabled people not being beautiful enough?

ROB

Well this is the story of three teenage girls aged 19, 17 and 14 from West London, who were thrown out of a nail salon in Acton because the owner apparently told them, “This is my shop there isn‟t enough room for pushchairs and you‟re scaring off the other customers” which I quite enjoyed. The nature of the disability being that these girls both use wheelchairs and one of them has learning difficulties. And apparently that‟s enough to scare off other customers. So it

made me wonder I‟ve noticed that the only time I‟ve ever been really properly scared of a disabled person was when it was completely my own fault because I angered him so much. And have you ever been genuinely scared or ever angered a disabled person to the point where they‟ve scared you?

MAT

I‟ve only been scared of a disabled person when I‟ve been worried that they‟re in… like when my friend Nigel had epileptic fits for the first time.

ROB

Oh right…

MAT

And I didn‟t know what to do and I was just scared because I was worried for him, but not physically scared for my own safety.

ROB

Oh I was worried; a blind man nearly killed me because I nearly killed him. I was on Clapham High Street a few years ago, and this blind man approached me on the level crossing and said, “Can you help me across the road?” And I was like, “Yeah okay” and didn‟t want to really say that I probably shouldn‟t because I‟m an Albino. And so wondered over, obviously, first thing that happened was we nearly both got hit by an articulated lorry. When we got over the other side the fellow was like, “You nearly got us killed” and I was like, “Yeah I know I meant to say before we crossed that I‟m visually impaired too.” And he got so incredibly angry with me and started shouting, the whole of Clapham High Street could hear and my attitude being that, obviously, disabled friendly person that I am was to run off and so he was shouting at thin air.

LIZ

That‟s only...

MAT

Come on you were only trying your best, I would‟ve just pushed him into the traffic.

LIZ

I must admit this story, I think, because it‟s just happened hasn‟t it a couple of weeks ago.

ROB

Yeah.

LIZ

And I think the timing‟s perfect because we‟ve, you know, in the last month we‟ve had „Britain‟s Missing Top Model‟ the disabled model series on and, obviously, it‟s changed a lot of people‟s attitudes towards disabled women and beauty so it‟s done it‟s job hasn‟t it really?

MAT

Ah.

LIZ

Now they‟re scared. Thanks for that, Rob, we‟re going to see you later aren‟t we?

MAT

Yeah.

LIZ

I think we are.

MAT

Absolutely.

LIZ

Oh yes we have thousands of questionnaires, okay maybe hundreds and we‟d like you to help...

ROB

Well seven.

LIZ

… later on. Seven.

ROB

Okay.

LIZ

Is that all right?

ROB

No that should be fine.

LIZ

Thank you very much.

MAT

Bye bye. This is your news. [Jingle: This is the Ouch podcast from the BBC in London.] Do you watch soap operas? TV has brought us soaps about hospitals, farms, cross channel ferries, magazines, markets and even petrol stations in the past. Well now it‟s time for disabled people to muscle in on the scene.

LIZ

Yeah. Haddon Street is a new online soap opera from Great Holm a media group and supported living development for people with learning difficulties in Milton Keynes. In the

studio with us are three of its stars: Paul Payne.

PAUL

Hello.

LIZ

Joseph Stewart.

JOSEPH

Hiya.

LIZ

And Iain Smith

IAIN

Hi.

LIZ

Hello. We‟re going to start by listening to a clip that stars Iain as Jake. So Jake and his mate Ralph run a garden shop, here they are being bullied by Jake‟s sister who wants the shop for herself. [Playing clip] Riveting stuff there.

MAT

That sounds lively.

LIZ

She wants the shop obviously my goodness. Iain why did you want to make a shop opera?

IAIN

Because it‟s for because it‟s a soap opera it‟s for disabled what is it Paul?

PAUL

It‟s for the people in Great Holm where we‟re from.

IAIN

Yeah that‟s right.

PAUL

That was the idea when we first started this. It‟s kind of developed a bit now hasn‟t it and we‟re making it for all people now.

IAIN

Yeah we are.

LIZ

So it‟s not just for you. It was initially just for you but now it‟s out there on the web?

IAIN

Yeah it is yeah.

LIZ

Really? Wow okay.

MAT

And Paul who do you play?

PAUL

I play Victor Harkness who‟s the villain of the peace.

MAT

Oh you are are you? Because you do look quite evil yeah.

PAUL

I‟m not really no.

LIZ

Flat cap and a lot of tattoos so he‟s scary.

MAT

So Joseph tell us a bit about the soap like the story lines and the characters and stuff, what‟s it all about.

JOSEPH

Well we deal with various issues, such as bullying and relationships and stuff.

MAT

Oh yeah?

JOSEPH

Yeah so we have issues to deal with and it‟s sometimes explained at the end of the episode.

LIZ

So it is ba--… okay so it is based on a living… is it based on a street, is it a street with shops or is it about the fact that people are in a supported living… do you bring that in? Is it about the supported living area where you live?

PAUL

It‟s kind of not really about… we didn‟t want to focus on the learning disabilities too much really, we just wanted to make characters that were fun to play and just make a real fun soap really.

MAT

Yeah quite right.

LIZ

Nice.

PAUL

The issue aren‟t specifically learning and disabled issues, they‟re just issues that affect a lot of people and they guys came up with their own characters. Jo wanted to play a punk rocker so…

MAT

Good lad.

PAUL

… that‟s what Jo plays.

MAT

Just for example, in terms of like the relationships so where do you go with that?

PAUL

We‟ve got a love triangle haven‟t we Jo?

JOSEPH

Yeah.

MAT

A love triangle.

LIZ

Are you involved in this? Are you involved in this?

JOSEPH

Yeah I am actually yeah.

LIZ

Really?

MAT

Oh my word.

LIZ

With who tell us more?

JOSEPH

With someone called PC Diana.

MAT

What a member of the…

LIZ

Constabulary?

JOSEPH

Yeah.

MAT

You‟re having a relationship with a copper?

JOSEPH

Yeah.

LIZ

A punk rocker and a copper!

MAT

And a copper. There‟s a film in that.

JOSEPH

Because my brother‟s a copper in the show…

MAT

Okay.

JOSEPH

… not in real life. And they both like the same woman don‟t they?

IAIN

Yeah.

JOSEPH

And they‟re total opposites of each other so…

MAT

Oh no, well that sounds riveting doesn‟t it? No, no really.

LIZ

No it does.

MAT

And what other sorts of stuff do you have in it?

IAIN

Well we have friendship.

MAT

Yes.

IAIN

Relationship and some be angry as well.

MAT

Like emotional stuff?

IAIN

Yeah.

MAT

What does your character get angry about?

IAIN

Well actually this person that I‟m playing is a really kind person.

MAT

Oh okay.

LIZ

But you‟re being bullied by your sister…

IAIN

Yeah.

LIZ

… at the moment?

MAT

She sounded pretty angry.

IAIN

Yeah she did.

LIZ

Yeah she did sound scary. Haddon Street it didn‟t start as a soap though did it?

PAUL

No it kind of… originally we were making a magazine for the people of Great Holm kind of thing, and then we decided we were doing this written piece of work and a lot of people were literate so we turned it into a DVD.

MAT

Good idea.

PAUL

And the soap it‟s got so much mileage that we‟ve just gone with it really. It was originally like a cookery show on there and stuff, so it‟s taking up all our time at the minute and people seem to really like it, so we‟re just going with it really.

LIZ

So now it‟s online and have you got many people watching it do you think?

PAUL

We set up on MySpace a couple of weeks ago and we‟ve had a couple of hundred of hits so, hopefully, people… and hopefully this will help as well.

MAT

Shall we have another clip?

LIZ

Fantastic.

MAT

Okay. Let‟s listen to this one. Jake and Ralph are star-struck to see rock star Derek Nosebleed (played by Joseph) let‟s take a listen. [Playing clip] So, Derek Nosebleed to use your fantastic punk name, what kind of… are you the singer in the band?

JOSEPH

Yeah I have my own band called Derek and the Dirties on the show. And I write my own music and…

MAT

Nice one. I‟ve got an idea, I know we‟ve got to talk about something else in a minute so very quickly, one day I think you should have Heavy Load, do you know them, who are a disabled learning punk band in your soap opera…

PAUL

It‟s funny you talk about…

MAT

That would be amazing.

PAUL

… that because they‟ve been… I‟ve been… he‟s been emailing me the guy Paul…

MAT

Paul yeah.

PAUL

… from Heavy Load and they want us to do something around „Stay Up Late‟ and we are going to be probably doing something around October time.

MAT

You heard it here first podcast listeners.

LIZ

Stay up late, stay up late what‟s it about Mat?

MAT

The „Stay Up Late‟ campaign as everybody knows, is learning and disabled people are sick and tired of being told to go home early by their…

PAUL

It‟s ridiculous.

MAT

… by their carers…

LIZ

Support workers whatever.

MAT

… and support workers. And all it takes is a bit of remanagement of the resources to make it possible for people with learning and disability to stay up as late as everybody else.

PAUL

Yeah absolutely.

LIZ

So there‟s more and more events about…

MAT

Absolutely.

LIZ

… and being run past the curfew of like 9:00 o'clock.

MAT

It‟s a massive running campaign that‟s growing bigger and bigger.

LIZ

Fantastic.

MAT

That‟s brilliant news. So listen, now let‟s get down to do it shall we.

LIZ

The important bit of the interview.

MAT

Yeah.

LIZ

Okay. We reckon that people with learning difficulties are very, very knowledgeable about soap operas do you think this is true?

PAUL

Yeah.

LIZ

Yeah is this your thing? We‟re going to test it aren‟t we?

MAT

Everybody says so.

LIZ

Yeah everybody says so yeah. So we contacted Inside Soap magazine…

MAT

That‟s right.

LIZ

They know a little bit about soap operas, one of the journalists, Sarah Ellis, has put together a quiz to test out just how much you love soaps okay? So the three of you are you ready?

PAUL

I‟m ready.

LIZ

There is no prize, it‟s the BBC it‟s cheap, but come on.

MAT

Shall we do a noise for correct and wrong?

LIZ

Okay. Ting.

MAT

And ech ech.

LIZ

Ech ech I like it.

MAT

Okay. Let‟s go, over to you.

LIZ

Question number one. (Whispers: tension in the studio) In Eastenders Phil Mitchell is angry that his son Ben has taken up which hobby: a) tap dancing; b) train spotting; c) shop lifting?

PAUL

Tap dancing.

LIZ

Ting.

MAT

Correct. In Coronation Street why did Michelle Connor dump boyfriend Steve McDonald was it: a) he left the toilet seat up; b) she cheated on him, or; c) he cheated on her?

IAIN

B.

JOSEPH

He left the toilet seat up is that?

MAT

Ech ech.

LIZ

Have another guess please? That was she cheated on him?

MAT

Was it he cheated on her or was it the toilet seat?

PAUL

I reckon toilet seat. That sounds about as good as Coronation Street gets lately.

MAT

Oohhh!

LIZ

Question number three.

MAT

By the way that was ech ech anyway.

LIZ

In Emmerdale who own the garage that Debbie Dingle runs. Is it: Matthew King; Jimmy King or Carl King?

IAIN

Is it Carl King?

MAT

Oh ting!

LIZ

Ting. Nice one.

MAT

Superb two out of three. So actor Roger Oakley appeared in Neighbours as Steve Parker‟s dad Jim recently, but who did he play in Home and Away was it: a) Donald Fisher; b) Tom Fletcher, or was it; c) Michael Ross?

IAIN

Is it Donald Fisher?

MAT

What did you say?

IAIN

Donald Fisher.

MAT

Ting!

LIZ

No ech ech.

MAT

Oh no sorry.

LIZ

Ech ech.

MAT

Ech ech no.

LIZ

Final one, final one which business are Honey and Billy Mitchell taking over from Ian Beale in Eastenders is it: the café; the fish and chip shop or the fruit and veg stall.

JOSEPH

Fruit and veg stall.

LIZ

Ting!

MAT

Well okay so the results of our popular survey are that with one question into the ting department…

LIZ

Yes.

MAT

… it would appear that there is a pattern of people with learning disabilities knowing a ruddy lot about soap opera.

LIZ

It‟s pretty good they‟re running one then and doing their own.

MAT

Well it stands to reason doesn‟t it, when you know enough about a subject you start doing it yourself don‟t you?

PAUL

You start doing it better.

MAT

Better. I really like, I think you do too right, I think this is just fantastic, really good. Now as an out, because we‟ve got to say goodbye to you now…

PAUL

Right.

MAT

… please give us the website and do a little bit about, you‟ve got a ten second plug followed by the website at the end. Hit it!

PAUL

Okay. Haddon Street it‟s the greatest soap being made at the moment. It‟s not just for the people with learning disabilities, it‟s got some great story lines in there, some great music, some great characters, love triangles everything you need. And you can find us on MySpace.com/haddonstreet that‟s fully spelt out H-A-D-D-O-N S-T-R-E-E-T.

LIZ

And the details will also be on the website.

PAUL

Yeah.

MAT

Fantastic.

LIZ

Brilliant.

MAT

Thanks for coming in guys…

LIZ

Thank you guys.

MAT

… lovely to see you.

LIZ

Good luck with it, keep having fun it sounds brilliant.

MAT

Good luck mate.

PAUL

Thank you for the support.

MAT

What‟s your favourite punk band?

JOSEPH

Rancid.

MAT

Rancid wow! Good band. [Jingle: bbc.co.uk/ouch] So the questionnaire that we‟ve had on our website for the last couple of months has really been gathering quite a lot of responses, in their hundreds they‟ve come in, answering questions as “Where do you listen to the podcast?” “What‟s the most inaccessible thing in the world?” Then the “If I won a million pounds I would…” and all that sort of stuff. Now we‟ve got Rob back. Hi Rob.

ROB

Hello.

MAT

And we‟ve been fleshing through, no fielding through some of these questionnaires and we‟ve found out some of the highlights, and here they are.

LIZ

Well Jo Elms from Bristol thank you for sending one in. Tell us more about what you do. “Does your disability make you more or less environmentally friendly?” You think more because you spend most of your time sleeping, so that‟s got to save energy. God love yer yeah.

ROB

Carol Shreeve from Darlington claims that her disability makes her more environmentally friendly. Tell us more. She says, “Can‟t drive, won‟t drive” mate always gives you a lift the environment crime is then theirs, which I think is…

MAT

Nice point.

ROB

… slightly smug but probably correct.

MAT

But what is you‟re getting a lift off a twokker, that‟s my question back to you, you Darlo person. That‟s between the Darlingtinians. But Sonny Taylor, friend of mine in California actually presented a paper at the recent SDS conference in New York about disabled people being less environmentally friendly because of all the modern resources that they use. Gideon, we‟ve got our lovely researcher Gideon in the studio. What do you think hm? You‟re on the spot?

GIDEON

I would contest that. I think I use public transport so I‟m sharing that burden with all the people.

MAT

Good. Using your Freedom Pass?

GIDEON

Absolutely yeah so I don‟t pay either, so I am… is that a burden on the economy or a benefit I can‟t work it out?

MAT

I don‟t know what would Hitler say? Or the KKK? I‟ve got a hunch they‟d be against it. Just a hunch.

LIZ

Oh let‟s get a bit of Mugabe in today shall we as well?

ROB

Oh don‟t mention…

LIZ

Oh, oh, oh…

ROB

… no not President Mugabe or ex-President Mugabe.

GIDEON

Power share Mugabe. That‟s what he‟s known as.

LIZ

I want to know because the question, one of the questions on the questionnaire is “If I won a million pounds I would…” okay I don‟t know if you‟ve got any responses to that. Somebody‟s put here, again Jo in Bristol, “I‟d buy an accessible house.” Anyone else? Because I remember years ago I used to training disability stuff and if you went to other disabled people and you‟d ask that question “What would you do if you won a million pounds?” Everyone would say it would be something about access. It would be like, “I‟d have an accessible house.” “I‟d have an accessible van.” I just think that‟s really boring.

MAT

But what would you do?

LIZ

Well no, but what I‟m getting at is we have to use it for stuff that we can‟t get normally.

MAT

Yeah.

LIZ

Do you know what I mean?

MAT

Hm-mm. Hm-mm.

LIZ

You have to get the access and the rights that you don‟t normally get, sorry that‟s boring again. I‟m doing it again…

MAT

No it‟s all right.

LIZ

… aren‟t I? You‟re not…

MAT

Not it‟s all right…

LIZ

… interested are you?

MAT

… you‟re on your little militant tip this week.

LIZ

No I‟m just saying.

ROB

Have you taken on a job at the Citizen‟s Advice Bureau since the last podcast?

LIZ

Well what would you do if you won a million?

ROB

I wouldn‟t spend it on anything remotely related to my Albinism not even slightly.

LIZ

No but a lot of people would, as disabled people I just thought that was…

ROB

What about this one then…

MAT

I‟d buy a flat in New York.

LIZ

Would you?

MAT

Yes and it wouldn‟t be accessible…

ROB

Not even accessible to you?

MAT

No.

ROB

Because you can‟t afford it…

MAT

I‟d have really high locks...

ROB

… because you haven‟t won.

MAT

… that I can‟t reach.

ROB

It‟s not accessible to any of us because we‟re paupers. Anyway green words and this is the code word that this particular entrant resides under in Australia. “If I won a million pounds I would buy a house, get laser hair removal, I‟m so vein I probably think this survey‟s about me, pay for a carer or three and donate to research into my condition. Oh that last bit sounds so unbearably worthy and the social modeller‟s will be after me, but I would and you can‟t stop me it‟s my million bucks.” I quite enjoyed that…

LIZ

See, nice, like it.

ROB

… stubbornness yeah.

MAT

I‟ve got somebody here called Richard Murrant from Exeter in Devon who said a couple of things that I think aren‟t quite funny. “I mostly eat period.” Don‟t really understand that one.

ROB

You eat periods?

MAT

I think he just “I mostly eat. Period.”

ROB

Oh I see right not…

LIZ

Oh…

MAT

Yeah not…

LIZ

Full stop.

ROB

Full stop yeah.

MAT

“The most inaccessible thing in the world ever is - the core!” Don‟t understand you mate.

ROB

That sounds like a sci-fi reference.

MAT

Yes. And “If I won a million pounds I would build decent wind and solar powered accessible housing for my wheelchair using mates to come and live in lovely Devon.” So he‟s done both accessibility and sustainability environmental pleasure.

LIZ

Is it the core of the world?

MAT

I don‟t know or whether it‟s his inner core like when you do Pilates.

LIZ

Or is it an apple core?

MAT

Exactly. I'm voting for the apple.

LIZ

And me.

ROB

Yeah I hope so, let‟s go for the one we understand.

LIZ

Then Glynn Atherson in Chesterfield, “What‟s your relationship with your carer?” “I love my carer too much.” Bit oh my goodness about that…

MAT

Uh oh!

LIZ

… tell us more. “My carer is my wife.” There you go and I like this, “she has stood by me while I drool and shout.” That‟s all you want from a partner really isn‟t it, what more?

ROB

There‟s only one thing better than a good shout and that‟s a bit of drool‟s coming out at the same time.

MAT

But we all have experience of this don‟t we?

ROB

What drooly rages?

MAT

No we‟ve all go less or non disabled partners who probably help us a bit with our impairments…

LIZ

When we drool.

MAT

… from time to time. Your soon Mrs to be presumably reads things for you from time to time yeah?

ROB

No she doesn‟t actually, I ask her to but she won‟t no. She helps me cross the road now and again and I conveniently claim my eyesight‟s worse than it is when I have to find things in public places so she has to do all the work.

LIZ

Does she laugh at you as well?

ROB

Oh constantly.

LIZ

Nice I think that‟s very important.

MAT

So she has to redirect you from time to time?

ROB

Yeah.

MAT

Good.

ROB

Corrects me.

LIZ

Anymore, anymore, anymore?

ROB

“Not there!”

MAT

Oh anymore of what these…

LIZ

Oh yeah.

MAT

I thought we were going to talk about…

LIZ

We‟ve got hundreds!

MAT

All right. Oh here‟s one - no that‟s boring.

ROB

I‟ve got a good one. I‟ve got a good succinct one. This is Carole Shreeve again in Darlington.

MAT

I like her.

ROB

“The most inaccessible thing in the world ever is accessing well paid job not in hippie sectors” which I think

is absolutely spot on.

MAT

Oh they‟re tough up in the North East.

ROB

They are.

LIZ

They are aren‟t they? Hm. Mick New York, New York “So that we understand your answers a little more can you tell us what impairment/disability you have, if any?” I‟m transgender which in the US means I have a gender identity disorder which is considered a mental disability.

MAT

Oh now that‟s an interesting bed of worms isn‟t it?

ROB

But never mind all that you say Mick lives in New York, he has a flat. Do you think we can use it?

LIZ

That‟s true. Is it inaccessible?

MAT

Guys I was making the transgender joke.

ROB

I‟m sorry, I‟m sorry.

MAT

Because worms are at both sexes. Yeah?

ROB

No I didn‟t know that?

MAT

Did you know that?

LIZ

Can you hear the silence?

MAT

Yeah the silence of boredom. Okay moving away.

LIZ

Do you see the way we had to go over it because of…

MAT

Gideon, Gideon save us. Save me.

LIZ

Do you think it‟s mental anyway that‟s what I wanted to know?

MAT

Well I don‟t know, I know a few transgender performers and people, and I would never presume to say that their sexual identity status is borne out of mental illness, that‟s ridiculous.

LIZ

But isn‟t that just going back to any kind of sexuality that wasn‟t the norm was always… oh stop it.

MAT

Here we go.

ROB

Let‟s go back to worms. I‟d like to know what resting actors do during the day, they clearly watch nature programmes and find out about worms.

MAT

Well they certainly don‟t [inaudible] themselves like worms can.

LIZ

I‟m not even going to try…

MAT

But they tried it.

LIZ

… and say anything sensible now. You want…

MAT

No come on…

LIZ

No.

MAT

… no, no, no I‟m serious.

LIZ

No but you know.

MAT

I‟m serious, Liz.

LIZ

Anything that was viewed as different was viewed as deviant and, therefore, a mental impairment, a mental

disability. So maybe transgender just hasn‟t caught up.

MAT

Seems silly though to identify transgenderism as a mental illness when it‟s just about…

ROB

But surely it‟s a mental frame of mind not an illness.

MAT

It‟s a mental desire to be who you want to be, it‟s an identity decision.

LIZ

You see you can do serious.

MAT

Yes.

LIZ

It‟s not just me.

MAT

I was doing it my little hand was going serious…

LIZ

You were very emotive weren‟t you? Yes very active.

MAT

Anyway let‟s do something funny to end this.

LIZ

Yeah.

MAT

Ooh.

LIZ

Come on.

MAT

“Which clothes do you wear and why?” Says Naomi Lawson of London, “I‟m slightly overweight and poor. I buy oversize jeans off e-Bay and sleep in ten year old tshirts.”

LIZ

Ten years‟ old?

MAT

No ten year old.

LIZ

The t-shirts are for ten year olds?

MAT

Yeah.

LIZ

I can‟t even say it.

MAT

She‟s obviously quite small up top.

LIZ

Okay.

MAT

If you want… so we wanted to put in the quest--… oh gosh a question for the able bods amongst us, so AB‟s “What question should we ask you and why?” Now Naomi I hope you‟re listening because I am… she‟s got notes about how

I‟m meant to say the answer to this. “If you could have any impairment/disability what would it be?” And (very deep voice) “Why?” Apparently I had to say „why‟ in a sinister voice it was very important. Questions submitted by my long suffering non disabled partner a girl. Oh…

LIZ

What?

MAT

… thanks Naomi we didn‟t need to know you were gay but thanks for telling us.

LIZ

So have you got an overwhelming amount of Nazism and lesbianism in today‟s show - hoorah!

ROB

It‟s been a full bodied show.

LIZ

Just an average month then isn‟t it?

MAT

Gideon decide, which do you prefer lesbianism or Nazism?

LIZ

If you had choose one.

MAT

As a heterosexual Jewish man I think I know what response is required.

GIDEON

I wouldn‟t like to declare myself a Nazi…

MAT

Either on you‟re in trouble.

GIDEON

Is it true, I‟d better not say anything… Oh one thing I found interesting in the survey I don‟t know if you can find it.

MAT

Yeah?

GIDEON

But one, we had some interesting people describing if they had an impairment or not and people saying they were temporarily able bodied.

LIZ

TABS.

MAT

TABS.

GIDEON

Is this a thing, should I know about this?

MAT

Well for a while, I think Nabile started that off didn‟t he?

LIZ

It‟s been on around a while.

MAT

TABS were like a suggested way because able bodied wasn‟t quite because anyone could become disabled, you know, not like you and me, obviously, but they could acquire an impairment, and so it was figured that everybody is basically potentially disabled so they‟re temporarily able bodied. I found it a little bit too much myself.

LIZ

Hm-mm. Well I think that‟s it I think that‟s why it‟s not caught on, but occasionally people write in and you think, „Oh it‟s new‟ but it‟s actually been around for quite a while. See what you think and…

ROB

I don‟t understand that at all.

LIZ

Really?

ROB

No.

LIZ

Oh bless.

ROB

I am getting progressively more stupid as I get older, but yeah.

LIZ

You know less and less about disability than what you do now.

ROB

Yeah my ignorance grows…

MAT

But anyway those questionnaires are still up on the site so listeners please continue to answer them. And, Rob, thanks very much again for joining us.

ROB

Thank you so much.

LIZ

We will see you next month hopefully. [Jingle: Dry your eyes and listen in Disabled Mat Fraser Disabled Liz Carr The Ouch Podcast]

MAT

(Explosion noises)

LIZ

Disability Wars s s s!

MAT

We‟re giving our usual Vegetable, Vegetable, Vegetable a break, sorry did you just do an echo?

LIZ

Yeah.

MAT

Okay.

LIZ

That‟s how bad it‟s got.

MAT

Anyway, forget about Veg, Veg or Veg this week we‟re giving it a break. In its place we‟ve resurrected…

MAT & LIZ

„Disability Wars s s s s‟

LIZ

Everyone talks about so-called disability hierarchies, blind people are further up the ladder than deaf people, they say wheelchair users are more visible than people with mental health problems yada, yada, yada.

MAT

Well here on Ouch we pit impairment against impairment with two disabled contestants to find out once and for ruddy all who‟s best. Who‟ve we got this month? Hello Claire and hello Amy?

AMY

Hello.

CLAIRE

Hiya.

MAT

So… oh one of you sounds Scottish which one‟s that?

LIZ

It‟s Claire. Let‟s… who are you and what do you do?

CLAIRE

I‟m Claire Cunningham, I'm from Glasgow and I‟m a performer for want of a better term.

LIZ

Huh-ha! And I believe that later this year, in September, you‟re about to appear in „Dada Fest‟?

CLAIRE

I am indeed.

LIZ

And what‟s this about a huge mobile made of crutches?

CLAIRE

Well maybe not huge yet…

LIZ

Okay.

CLAIRE

… the first stage of the piece, but yeah I'm making a big mobile, not a phone mobile but a hanging mobile.

LIZ

Is that like for above a baby‟s crib or something like that?

CLAIRE

Yes that sort of mobile.

LIZ

Nice.

CLAIRE

Made out of lots of crutches.

MAT

And so, Amy, who is a Fine Arts student I‟m reading here; love a bit of fine art. But apparently you‟ve just started playing wheelchair basketball is that right Amy?

AMY

Yes I have yeah.

MAT

Are you in love with Ade Adepitan?

AMY

I don‟t know a lot about wheelchair basketball yet at all, I‟m just learning.

MAT

Okay. What position do you favour?

AMY

Any position they‟ll let me play really.

MAT

Well that wouldn‟t be a problem here. So…

LIZ

Okay, now look…

MAT

Oh yes please can we be firm about this.

LIZ

Disability Wars before we play we have to firmly establish exactly what‟s wrong with you both so we can pit disability against disability in this huge whopping quiz. Claire, what‟s wrong with you, Claire?

CLAIRE

Well it‟s a combination.

LIZ

Oh God right. Yeah come on.

CLAIRE

It‟s never that simple. Arthrogryposis would be one of them.

LIZ

Okay.

CLAIRE

And…

LIZ

And that means what?

CLAIRE

… the other would be Osteoporosis.

LIZ

Hm.

MAT

Which is harder to say?

CLAIRE

Arthrogryposis.

LIZ

That‟s the one we want you to…

LIZ

When you know the answer to one of our questions we want you to shout that out.

CLAIRE

Okay.

LIZ

Okay so keep that.

MAT

But you really have to shout it okay because Amy is probably going to be shouting her impairment which is Amy?

AMY

Well I have a lot too.

MAT

Okay.

AMY

I probably have more actually.

MAT

Let‟s have the list. Come on.

LIZ

Canny yeah, go for it.

AMY

Well I have seizures.

MAT

Seizures easy to say.

AMY

Which is always a good way of getting out of things.

MAT

Next one.

AMY

I have Dystonia.

MAT

Dystonia? Isn‟t that a country in Eastern Europe?

AMY

I‟m also a wheelchair user as well.

MAT

Wheelchair user. What‟s probably hardest to say out of those three?

AMY

I reckon Dystonia.

LIZ

I like that. (Singing Dystonia!)

MAT

So can we get a test shout out from each of them first?

LIZ

Yeah first individually. So Claire.

CLAIRE

Arthrogryposis!

LIZ

Amy.

AMY

Dystonia!

MAT

So those are your buzzers okay? Now there are five questions and they‟re all based on current affairs nothing to do with disability. If you know the answer we need you to shout the name of your impairment as loud as you can. If you get the question wong hm, if you get the question wrong we pass it over to the other contestant okay?

AMY

Okay.

MAT

Well let‟s go. (Explosive noises)

LIZ

Question number one. Disability Wars s s s s s s s. Question one: British business tycoon Richard Branson has unveiled an aircraft in the US which will be used for his project to launch tourists into space, but what is the name of the company he has set up to provide these sub-orbital flights?

AMY

Dystonia!

LIZ

Amy?

AMY

Virgin.

LIZ

Be a bit more specific please?

AMY

Virgin Airlines I don‟t know.

MAT

Okay, Claire any idea?

CLAIRE

Oh God I actually don‟t know sorry.

LIZ

Virgin Galactic. Okay. Number two.

MAT

Oh dear. Right. Blake Fielder-Civil was sent to prison for 27 months in late July for attacking a pub landlord and perverting the course of justice. Who was his famous wife?

AMY

Dystonia!

MAT

Amy?

LIZ

Dystonia!

AMY

Amy Winehouse.

MAT

Well done.

AMY

Yea!

MAT

Okay, next one.

LIZ

Carole Vorderman and Des O'Connor are both standing down from their presenter roles on which long running afternoon game show?

CLAIRE

Arthrogryposis!

LIZ

Ah ha ah ha ha.

MAT

Claire?

CLAIRE

Countdown.

MAT

Well done.

LIZ

(Singing Countdown theme) Rory Bremner is tipped to replace Des in case you care. And they‟re going to do a UK wide search for a maths graduate to replace Carole.

MAT

I don‟t believe a bit of that.

LIZ

Really?

MAT

Judging by the mid programme ads for Stannah stair lifts and step in baths you imagine a lot of disabled people watch this programme hm? Now at a bi-election at the end of July the Scottish National party overturned a labour majority of 13,000, leading to calls for Prime Minister, Gordon Brown‟s resignation, in which constit--… in which constit-…

LIZ

Atchoo!

MAT

... where was the bi-election held?

LIZ

Ah ha ah ha ha?

MAT

Arthrogryposis…

LIZ

Or Dystonia

MAT

… I would‟ve thought you‟d know this one.

CLAIRE

Arthrogryposis!

MAT

Yes.

CLAIRE

Guessing, just oh God.

MAT

It‟s a famous city and it‟s one quadrant of it.

CLAIRE

Glasgow East.

MAT

Yes well done!

LIZ

Hey hey!

MAT

Two/one to Claire next question.

LIZ

With the final question. So Dystonia if you want to stand a chance of just equalising and proving you‟re severely tragically handicapped as ah ha ah ha ha is okay you‟ve got to get this right.

AMY

Okay.

LIZ

Ready?

AMY

Yeah.

LIZ

So shout out whoever knows the answer to this one. Summer news - the 104 year old grand pier at a famous old honest to goodness English seaside resort burnt down in the last few days. Name the resort town?

AMY

Dystonia!

LIZ

Dystonia come on.

AMY

Oh was it Weston Super Mare?

MAT

Well done!

LIZ

Ooh yes!

MAT

I believe it‟s a tie, it‟s a tie.

LIZ

It is a tie.

MAT

We‟ve got a tiebreaker question.

LIZ

No we haven‟t what do we do?

MAT

Have we got a tiebreaker question?

LIZ

No.

MAT

Oh my God.

LIZ

Think of one.

MAT

We‟ve got to think of one.

LIZ

Think of one.

MAT

Agh quickly, quickly. Oh okay, okay here we go.

LIZ

Hm oh this is good.

MAT

Temporary Prime Minister Gordon Brown has a famous disabled child what is their first name? Prime Minister to be, David Cameron, has a disabled child what is his name?

AMY

I don‟t know.

CLAIRE

Not a clue.

LIZ

They‟re too busy watching Countdown.

MAT

Who was the first person on Countdown to be the person with the dictionary?

AMY

I don‟t watch Countdown.

CLAIRE

Arthrogryposis I‟ll guess Giles Brandreth?

MAT

Is the correct answer.

LIZ

Really?

MAT

Yeah it is the correct answer.

LIZ

We have a winner.

MAT

We do have a winner. I‟m sorry for the ageist tiebreaker Dystonia.

AMY

I‟m only 22.

CLAIRE

Yeah but it‟s worse I now get a reputation for watching Countdown!

AMY

And I go to college so I always miss Countdown.

LIZ

They really want to win don‟t they my God.

MAT

Well traditionally Countdown is for college students isn‟t it?

CLAIRE

No that was Blockbuster

MAT

Ah yes.

AMY

Not art students, not art students.

LIZ

Which impairment has won then? Say is loud and proud.

MAT

Put an echo on.

CLAIRE

Arthrogryposis.

MAT

Arthrogryposis s s s s s s s. Thank you Claire, thank you Amy for playing (explosion noises)

LIZ

Disability Wars s s s s.

MAT

By the way there are no prizes. We couldn‟t be arsed to fill in the new long winded and tortuous competition forms we have to do since that whole Blue Peter cat incident.

LIZ

Sorry about that but thanks for playing. [Jingle: The Ouch podcast]

MAT

Liz?

LIZ

Yeah.

MAT

This is the 30th podcast.

LIZ

Huh-ha. You sound very tired are you all right?

MAT

No I‟m not.

LIZ

Are you trying to be sexy?

MAT

No I‟m not trying to be sexy?

LIZ

Okay. It‟s not really working if it is.

MAT

Do you want to hear the sexy version?

LIZ

Yeah, no okay.

MAT

(Said in a very deep voice) Liz, this is the 30th podcast.

LIZ

It sounds like you‟re trying to sell me knock off goods.

MAT

[Heavy breathing]

LIZ

I‟ve got a few, I‟ve got a few knock off bed pans here.

MAT

Pick up the phone. No anyway so…

LIZ

Sorry.

MAT

Liz.

LIZ

Yeah.

MAT

This is the 30th podcast and it feels a bit special and I‟ve got you a present. Can I give it to you?

LIZ

Yeah.

MAT

Thank you.

LIZ

Have you really?

MAT

I really have. Look and you‟ve got to describe it to listeners.

LIZ

I‟ve got a present.

MAT

There you go.

LIZ

It‟s all very pretty.

MAT

Describe it please.

LIZ

It‟s a floral toiletries bag from a major toiletries provider.

MAT

What does it say inside that thing?

LIZ

„Made with Passion‟.

MAT

Because I‟m passionate about how talented you are, Liz.

LIZ

And it‟s like, note how I‟m ignoring that, it‟s like turquoise and blue flowers and lavender.

MAT

I call it more milky mauve but anyway go on.

LIZ

Milky mauve. And…

MAT

Oh listeners the poor little crippley lady can‟t open it.

LIZ

I can‟t actually…

MAT

Can we get her PA in please?

LIZ

It‟s not… it‟s because look it‟s got there.

MAT

Use your teeth like I do.

LIZ

Oh I‟m not doing that. You do it.

MAT

Oh thalidomides have got good teeth.

LIZ

Go on.

MAT

PAs coming in.

LIZ

PAs coming in.

MAT

Oh it‟s not a proper PA it‟s bloody, spazzy

LIZ

Gideon.

GIDEON

Just as bad as you guys.

LIZ

Oh you can do every--… can you do that. Just as bad as us what are you saying?

MAT

Gideon come on rip it open like a real man.

LIZ

Come on.

MAT

He‟s going to break it, he‟s going to break the zip now. Oh look he‟s nervous like a virgin.

LIZ

You can‟t say that on… you can‟t come in here...

GIDEON

No you really can‟t.

LIZ

… and swear.

MAT

He‟s fumbling with the little nobby bit at the top.

LIZ

Have you got a lot of experience in this kind of thing?

MAT

Well obviously not.

GIDEON

Evidently not.

LIZ

Got a lot of experience with women‟s zips?

MAT

Oh don‟t hurt yourself.

GIDEON

I‟ll take it through to the studio and see if they can do it.

MAT

Oh we‟re going…

LIZ

We‟ll get another PA.

MAT

… to have to get another PA in…

LIZ

First PA no good.

MAT

… because our first PA is too spasy to do it.

LIZ

Oh bless. Well it‟s a lovely idea.

MAT

Female listeners he‟s just gone out the studio right…

LIZ

Well they‟ve actually taken it…

MAT

Our researcher, Gideon, he‟s a lovely young boy, very good looking…

LIZ

And now he‟s got…

MAT

Oh it‟s open isn‟t it?

LIZ

Thank you.

MAT

Vierra we‟ve got the extraordinarily able bodied looking Vierra who just whipped it open like a shot and off they go together.

LIZ

I‟m pulling out the lavender…

MAT

Specially wrapped.

LIZ

… specially wrapped.

MAT

I specially wrapped it all. What have you got Liz?

LIZ

Okay.

MAT

You‟ve got…

LIZ

Moringa Body Butter.

MAT

Oh yeah.

LIZ

Aloe Soothing Day Cream.

MAT

Aloe as in Vera.

LIZ

Aqua Lily.

MAT

Not „Hello‟ as in Lionel Ritchie.

LIZ

Eau de toilette. Body Shop mascara.

MAT

Don‟t say that.

LIZ

Oh mascara.

MAT

And that‟s how much I think of you, Liz, and your talents.

LIZ

And a 10% voucher for next time I shop there.

MAT

Happy Anniversary, Liz. Happy Anniversary.

LIZ

Is this like one of those things…

MAT

I really missed you when you were away.

LIZ

… that somebody gave you that you were saving up because you don‟t like it?

MAT

Not at all.

LIZ

Did you buy… really?

MAT

It‟s got nothing to do…

LIZ

Was this given to your mother?

MAT

… with having bought £25 worth of goods from the Body

Shop.

LIZ

And you got a free thing.

MAT

Nothing at all.

LIZ

I was wondering where this had come from. Either that…

MAT

What‟ve you got for me?

LIZ

… or you‟re trying to tell me I smell.

MAT

Where‟s my 30th anni--… no not at all.

LIZ

Really?

MAT

Oh God no it‟s not like when my flatmate gave me those weird cardamom seeds and I said, “What are they for?” And she looked at me and went “Bad breath!”

LIZ

Oh!

MAT

I know I thought, „Bloody hell subtle!‟

LIZ

Actually that leads on good can…

MAT

Does it okay…

LIZ

… I yeah…

MAT

… you're taking it somewhere….

LIZ

No.

MAT

… obviously away from the fact that you haven‟t got me anything for the 30th anniversary programme.

LIZ

So anyway moving on, and by the way the PA was so super strong she‟s broken the zip.

MAT

Ooh.

LIZ

So there you go.

MAT

She‟s got a hell of a right arm on her.

LIZ

Thank you. Yes.

MAT

Thanks Vierra. Anyway yes what?

LIZ

The smelly thing how do you tell someone that yeah.

MAT

All my friends if you‟re listening, if I‟ve got snot in my nose, if I‟ve got sleep in my eye, if I‟ve got paper hanging out my arse whatever it is, TELL ME! I don‟t care if it‟s embarrassing tell me before it becomes more embarrassing when I do it in public.

LIZ

Okay I need to ask you this then.

MAT

Yes.

LIZ

What about the blind?

MAT

What about what you mean?

LIZ

Blind people.

MAT

What blind people what?

LIZ

Well what if they‟ve got something on their faces or something inappro-

MAT

I‟ll tell them.

LIZ

Would you always?

MAT

Always tell them.

LIZ

Okay.

MAT

Got a disabled mate of mine, saw him on the train the other day and his trousers were half way down his shorts, he smelt a bit greasy, you know like he hadn‟t washed for a while. I said, “Mate you‟re a wreck. You need to get a different care package because that is not good enough. I'm sorry to tell you that.” I got an email from him saying, “That was really upsetting but I‟m really glad you told me, and thank you.”

LIZ

But whilst there might be a you‟ve got a bit of something on your face or whatever, that immediate thing, what if a friend, obviously, isn‟t bathing properly and their house is a wreck…

MAT

Yeah.

LIZ

… and you know they‟re not getting a decent care, but you know what I mean…

MAT

Well often it‟s because of that isn‟t it?

LIZ

But do you bring it up or do you just support them? I think it‟s a difficult one that one.

MAT

Well I think if you… okay I would love to know what listeners think about this but I would personally, if it was somebody I knew, if I gauge the situation and I thought… why don‟t we make a vote.

LIZ

Let‟s have a vote.

MAT

That‟s a brilliant idea…

LIZ

Yeah.

MAT

… of mine.

LIZ

She says having written it down in big letters and underlined it.

MAT

I would try and broach the subject, obviously, be aware that if it is a care package problem that you just have to say, “Is there any way you can reconstruct it to make you get a bit more washes in because, mate, you‟re a bit stinky?” And if they go, “Yeah I‟m afraid that‟s just the deal because I only get one bath a week and I can‟t afford anything else” then you leave it alone I guess. That‟s probably what I would do. What would you do?

LIZ

I really don‟t know because I think so many people don‟t have the care package or they don‟t have the money.

MAT

Hm-mm.

LIZ

Or it‟s hard to get out and get clothes or it‟s comfortable to wear other things. It‟s just a whole minefield that people might dress and be a certain way because of their impairments, and when comes the point when you might say, “Actually awh…” you know.

MAT

Well I mean to extend it from old feminism, from what I remember of the „70s, was all about a lot about the women I knew was about being allowed to grow their armpit hair, and reclaiming it as a natural feminine thing, do you know what I mean?

LIZ

Hm-mm.

MAT

And in a way some disabled people, we both know, have reclaimed a state of less washing as just a disability thing and you just have to lump it and like it, because “I can‟t wash that easily, I don‟t get that much opportunity to, so this is me, deal with it”. Now you know I think we need a vote on that. What are we voting on?

LIZ

You‟ve got the simple… is it like if a disabled person has a personal hygiene problem…

MAT

Do you tell them or not?

LIZ

Yes or no.

MAT

Yes or no. Okay.

LIZ

That‟s going to be on the website.

MAT

Go on the website right now listeners and put your vote in. We need to know and any comments about it at all, because I know we‟re being a little bit flippant about this but it is a serious subject.

LIZ

Not really but it is yeah we‟ve probably both been told things like that, so it‟s like do you want to be told, should you and it‟s okay a bit of food on your face but if you‟re dressing and not… if it‟s bigger than that because your care package has fallen apart and your life has fallen apart do you just leave that person and support them. What do you do?

MAT

bbc.co.uk/ouch.

LIZ

Okay. I have to… I have been on the message board reading up what people have been writing about recently.

MAT

I know.

LIZ

Yeah.

MAT

Yes.

LIZ

Loads of stuff, great stuff.

MAT

It‟s amazing.

LIZ

And one of the things that really struck me and it was in two separate posts okay, was a question about “Is there anything that it‟s not appropriate for a personal assistant to help you with?” Okay? And the…

MAT

Oh God where are we going...

LIZ

… two big things…

MAT

… with this?

LIZ

… that have come up.

MAT

Yes.

LIZ

It‟s really, really good stuff here yeah.

MAT

No I know.

LIZ

It‟s what about for women what about periods and tampons, inserting a tampon in particular.

MAT

Okay.

LIZ

Okay? And the other one that‟s come up has been what about masturbation…

MAT

Oh my God I can‟t believe we‟re talking about this on the BBC.

LIZ

But you know, if you can‟t reach, if you can‟t do it yourself and you‟ve got a PA is it appropriate to ask them. So both about below the waist stuff.

MAT

One‟s clearly different to the other though, and I know we‟ve got a divide here because you use a PA and I don‟t. So it‟s like a bloke talking about feminism in a way. I don‟t really feel…

LIZ

What do you think…

MAT

… I‟m qualified to comment but, obviously, blokes always talk about feminism so I am qualified to talk. No, one is clearly functional, and you know women have periods depending on how they want… if they‟re going to insert a tampon and they need help then that‟s just something that they need.

LIZ

Hm.

MAT

It could be argued that you needed masturbation but it could also be argued that you don‟t and it‟s a sexual thing, whereas, the tampon thing isn‟t sexual it‟s functional. I think that‟s the basic difference isn‟t it?

LIZ

Really?

MAT

Like arse wipe, washing and wiping and all those things, that‟s all part of a personal hygiene care package isn‟t it?

LIZ

Hm-mm.

MAT

Have you ever asked a PA to masturbate pleasure you?

LIZ

Pleasure me. No I haven‟t.

MAT

I wouldn‟t have thought you had but I needed to use…

LIZ

No, no, no but…

MAT

… you as a litmus test.

LIZ

No but I can‟t reach below my waist so it‟s… the issues have arisen for me, I‟m reading the message board and

thinking „it‟s very valid‟.

MAT

What are people saying?

LIZ

Well all sorts because actually if you do want a PA to do those things, some PAs don‟t want to do them, that‟s the other side of it, and that includes the Tampax stuff. There will be PAs that will say, “Actually no” and for different reasons. And one of the legitimate things that somebody has said is, “Actually if it‟s inserted badly…” which if you‟re inserting a tampon yourself you‟ll know if it‟s in right and if it‟s comfortable or not. But what if it‟s…

MAT

But surely you can tell the person? “Oh wrong...”

LIZ

Left a bit, right a bit…

MAT

Yeah.

LIZ

I would think. For me I‟ve always felt like I couldn‟t. I think I‟m quite open about stuff, but I would actually find it really hard to say to a PA, “Yes I would like you to insert a Tampax” and then that‟s a very personal thing, but there‟s lots of disabled women that do want that and their PAs won‟t do it. Or, like me, they feel inhibited about asking. And actually it‟s a very normal function.

MAT

Hm. And then, you know, as far as I‟m concerned so is masturbation. And if you can‟t do it yourself and you can‟t afford to get a sex worker in to do it for you, I suppose you are maybe left with no choice but to ask your PA if they wouldn‟t mind. And I suppose we should extend this out so

listeners who use PAs please tell us what you think. But any PAs out there listening…

LIZ

Do you think it‟s right?

MAT

… tell us, you tell us what you think.

LIZ

I was talking to a PA about this and I said, “Would you…

MAT

One of yours or…

LIZ

Actually no…

MAT

… somebody else‟s?

LIZ

… somebody else…

MAT

Okay.

LIZ

… somebody that works as a PA.

MAT

Huh-ha.

LIZ

Okay? And I said, “Would you, how would you feel about

assisting a man or a woman to get off?” Okay?

MAT

Yeah.

LIZ

And they said, “Oh my God I‟d feel like a prostitute.”

MAT

Yeah.

LIZ

And I said, “But hold on why? You‟re not you would…

MAT

You‟re facilitating…

LIZ

…actually be…

MAT

… a need of the…

LIZ

Yeah you‟re not…

MAT

… yeah of the client.

LIZ

… you‟re not part of the fantasy, you‟re not part of the whole experience, you‟re literally just the „making it happen‟ okay? They‟re doing the… you‟re just there okay?

MAT

Yeah.

LIZ

And as much as it‟s like you might be hoovering or you might be assisting… I‟m just putting this forward I don‟t know, and as much as you might be just wiping somebody if they go to the loo, helping them get into bed…

MAT

Yeah.

LIZ

… making the dinner, isn‟t it as mundane as that. It‟s just about the fact that we‟re so hung up about sex and certain parts of our body that as soon as it‟s like „oh my god it‟s helping somebody to do that‟ it becomes “I couldn‟t possibly.” The debate rages on. Please email us with your thoughts on this, or any of the things you want us to discuss on ouch@bbc.co.uk that‟s ouch@bbc.co.uk.

MAT

Fab. [Jingle: The BBC heartily endorses the Ouch podcast.]

LIZ

That‟s the end of podcast 30. Sorry I didn‟t get you a present Mat. Sorry.

MAT

It‟s fine.

LIZ

Okay.

MAT

It‟s fine.

LIZ

Thanks go to Producer, Damon Rose, Assistant Producer Emma Tracey plus Gideon Goldberg, and Studio Manager Andy Rushton. Next month Mat isn‟t here so it‟s going to be an all girl special with me and podcast regular Kiruna Stamell.

MAT

What? Hold on a minute. Damon, what‟s going on?

LIZ

What?

MAT

You were away for six months, did I ever, ever get offered a guy to do it with? I wanted an equal example of humanity yeah?

LIZ

Huh-ha.

MAT

Man and woman, what have we got here - woman and woman.

LIZ

Hm.

MAT

Not very fair is it?

LIZ

It‟s going to be a good one.

MAT

Okay.

LIZ

Send us a little gift.

MAT

I will do.

LIZ

What are you doing, why aren‟t you here?

MAT

When is it?

LIZ

End of August.

MAT

End of August I'm going to be in Holland and then Seattle doing a burlesque show called the „Coney Island Apocalypse‟.

LIZ

Very nice.

MAT

Hm. Come along. Oh you can‟t you‟re doing the podcast. Playing out this month we have the winner of last podcast‟s vote, sadly the Ouch team PATHETICALLY forgot to put the vote up on the site until about a week ago, but we still got votes in. Londoner Dele Fakoya won with his homage to Dr. Who, and who is this „Who‟ fan I hear you ask? Well Dele works with the big learning disability arts organisation Heart and Soul, big up the soul, who put him in touch with Paul Silver and Paul Crawford. They co-produce some tracks with Dele who also played keyboards.

LIZ

Dele has performed at the Beautiful Octopus Club, a major cultural talent event for people with learning disabilities.

MAT

And their friends.

LIZ

Huh-ha. Dr. Who can be found on Sounds of the Underground CD produced by Heavy Load. Find a link to more about the album on Ouch and you can hear more of Dele‟s music at MySpace.com/DeleF

MAT

Hm I think he should have done the theme tune rather than Murray Gold‟s one. Anyway goodbye from us and here‟s the track you voted for.

LIZ

See you next month. [Playing music from Dele Fakoya]


				
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