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The Origin of Word by PetraJaksic

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									Etymology:The Origin of Words
Dušan Vukotić

(sci.lang discussion)

Sweet Sevda(h)

Tuesday, 5. January 2010, 08:29:10

The second annotation I made in my White Wedding article was sevdah, a turcism (Turkish
loanword) in Serbian. Abdulah Škaljić wrote a comprehensive book on Turkish loanwords in
Serbo-Croatian (Turcizmi u srpsko-hrvatskom jeziku, 1966, p. 561), and there he said that
Serbian sevdah 'love, love longing' came from Turkish sevda 'love', via Arabic sawdā 'black,
black bile'. I think, such etymology of the word sevdah may hardly be acceptable, because there
is nothing in Arabic what could possible suggest any connection between the real meaning of
that word and 'love'. On the contrary, sawdā means just 'black' (aswad aw abyad 'black and
white'; bilad al-sudan 'the land of the blacks'), although it have another additional meaning in
philosophical sense: black humor or black bile (based on humoral theory of Hippocratic school,
later refined by Galen and Avicenna). According to this theory, white or colorless body fluid
was named phlegma (Arab. balgham; word probably related to Serb. belina 'whiteness',
beličast/belkast 'whitish' and Eng. bleach; from PIE *bhel-), the yellow one was safrá 'yellow,
bile' (safár esh shams 'yellowness of sun'), the red one was blood (dam or khun), etc.

Škaljić also mentioned verses from a folk love-song, Snijeg pade drumi zapadoše (Snow fell,
roads closed): "ostala ti udovica mama, udala se za prvog sevdaha" (your mother be widowed,
and remarried to her first love ). These folk songs are known among the people of Bosnia and
Serbia as sevdalinke (love songs). At first sight, everything seems to be known: the Turks took
that word from the Arabs, while the Serbs loaned the same word from the Turks, with some
"local' rearrangements done by adding the final -h. Nevertheless, there are some vague things
about the Turkish word sevda 'love'. First one is the above mentioned discrepancy between the
meanings of this word in Arabic and Turkish. The second "problem" is the existence of the
words sevgi 'love', sevecen 'loving' and sevgili 'loved, darling, beloved' in Turkish (sf. Turkm.
söýgi 'love', söýli 'beloved', Uzb. sevgi 'love', sevgili 'beloved'), because these words (taking in
consideration their meanings and the phonetic "closeness") may belong to the same "root" as
sevda. So, supposedly, we cannot reject the possibility that Turkish sevda may be derived from
the same basis as IE words for "sweet" (*sweh-du; cf. Skr. svādú 'sweet, Lat. suavis -e 'sweet,
pleasant' ). The final sound 'h' in sevda-h, which allegedly has been added to the "Turkish stem"
in Serbian, doesn't look convincing enough. Namely, there are many Serbian words with a
similar morphology. For example, uzdah 'sigh', predah 'respite, time-out', zadah 'smell', and
almost all verbs when used in aorist or imperfect tense (1st p. sing. gledah, videh, radih, učih,
sedeh etc.). Here the Serbian verb zavoditi may be of a special interest because in an
aorist/imperfect form, which means ‘I seduced’, it sounds as zavodih or zavedoh (similar as

Let us now make a small digression. There is a Latin adjective suavidicus -a -um with the
meaning 'sweetly speaking'. Phonetically, that word is close to the Serbian verbs svideti 'like'
and svaditi se 'quarrel'. Russian rendezvous (свидание the place of love meeting) might be of
some help here because it shows that the Slavic verb videti (OSl. видѣти, виждѫ; Cz. vidět)
plays the 'main role" in this case. Actually, Serbian svideti 'like' means 'to see someone eye to
eye' - and in addition - 'to be fond of seeing/meeting someone'. At first glance, it seems
impossible to find any connection between Serbian word svideti 'like' and slatko 'sweet' (Cz.
sladký, Russ. сладкий), and I do not know that any scholar ever connected Slavic slatko/sladak
'sweet' and English sweet. Vasmer (IV, p. 713; Brückner: Słovnik etymologiczny języka
polskiego, p.500, Skok III, 277) connects Russian солодкий/сладкий 'sweet' with соленый
'salted, savory''. It is hard to determine if he was wrong here, but the name for salt (Lat. sal salis
'salt, brine, sea-water', Skr. लवण lavaṇá 'salt, saline, brine', Gr. ἅλας/ἅλς 'salt' - elision of the
initial h/s; Gr. ἁλμυρός = Serb. salamura 'brine') appeared to be derived from the PIE "root"
*səh-(bh)l-, which is in fact a prefixed *belgh- basis (cf. Skr. sa-lavaṇa 'with salt, tin'; cf. Serb. so-
ljenje, do-so-ljavanje ‘salting’); i.e. it might be supposed that salt is a cognate to the IE words for
suffusion, flow, sea (Eng. salivate, slobber, OE slyppe 'slime', Skr. salila 'flowing, flood, waves',
Serb. zaliti, saliti, sliti, izliti suffuse, flood, pour in/out'; sliniti 'salivate'; Gr. ἅλιος 'of the see').

Turkish word for black is siyah, a loanword from Persian, probably related to Sanskrit śyai 'dark,
gray', Avestan sуāvа 'black' and Slavic siv 'gray' (OSl. сивъ). In Uzbek, there are two basic
words for 'love'. One is sev- and the other is so'y-. Uzbek sevin- means 'glad, delighted, happy'
(sevinch 'glee, delight', Tur. sevinçli, sevin-mek 'rejoice') and, it seems, it would be hard to
connect this word to Arabic sawâd 'black' or 'black bile' (the second meaning just in a
philosophical sense; adj. aswad, saudâ 'black'); they are semantically conflicting with each
other. In most IE languages the word for 'black' is connected to the notion of 'burning'. Namely,
after the process of burning the stricken area would be either black or gray colored. Henceforth,
there are words as English black (from PIE *bhleg- 'burn', Gr. φλέγω 'take fire, blaze up'; Lat.
flagro -are; Skr. plusyati 'to burn', pākalá ‘quite black'; Ger. Fleck; and probably Lat. pullus
'blackish' from *pulh-nos). Similar is with the Serbian adverb/adj. crn-o 'black' (Russ. чѐрный, Cz.
černě, Pol. czerń; OSl. чрънъ), which is related to the Slavic verb goreti (OSl. горѣти, Russ.
гореть, Cz. hořet; Gr. θέρμω, Lat. formus from *ghwormo-; Skr.         gharmá 'heat, warmth'). This
process will be more understandable if the words like Serbian gorenje 'burning' (Russ. горение,
Cz. hoření), gar 'soot' and garav, garan 'swarthy, sooty' are taken in consideration. Actually, the
Slavic "root" *črъnъ is derived from the PIE *ghwər-(bl)-ghn- basis (cf. Serb. gorivo 'fuel', gorljiv
'ardent, keen, fiery'). The same PIE basis was used for the naming of the red color (Serb.
crveno, rumeno, Russ. червлeный, Cz. červeň; OSl. чръвенъ, чръвлѥнъ).

It seems that Semitic languages fallowed the same pattern by connecting words for 'black' and
'burn, heat'. For instance, there is Aramaic swṭ, which means 'to be burned' and Akkadian
šahānu 'to heat up'. Maybe this Aramaic word (swṭ) is related to Arabic sawdā 'black' (cf. Aram.
sawta ‘old man’, probably ‘gray-haired’). Of course, this is a mere guessing from my side and I
would live this assumption to those whose knowledge about Semitic is much better than mine.
Nevertheless, at the end of this "story" the fallowing conclusions may be briefly stated:

1) Maybe by chance, but the following Serbian words, zavodnik 'seducer', svodnik 'pimp' and
svedok 'witness' sound very close to the Turkish word sevda 'love'. In Serbian, sevdah also
means - as we have seen from the above verses - 'lover'. Serbian zavođenje is the word that
describes the process of seducing and therefore it is the word from the same "arsenal" as Latin
seduco -ducere. Zavoditi literally means "to avert/divert (someone) from the road". Serbian
savet 'advice' is also a kind of "seducing" or diverting, but this time from the "wrong" road to the
"right" one.

2) Perhaps it could be stated that Turkish sevda hardly might be the Arabic loanword. Sevda is
semantically mismatching enough as to be considered related to Arabic sawdā. Sometimes it is
possible to make "connections" among different words from different language groups according
to our "free will". Aramaic zrāq (gray, blue) sounds almost the same as Serbian zrak (ray,
beam). May these two words be considered as false friends and true cognates? Who knows,
both are related to word "dawn": Aramaic saḥra 'dawn', Serbian zora 'dawn, daybreak' (also
Arab. saḥar 'dawn, daybreak', Hebrew ‫ שחר‬šaḥar 'dawn, morning, early light'). To give just
another example: Hebrew word for 'gray-hair, hoary, old age' is ‫ שיבה‬seybah and it sounds very
similar to Serbian sivo 'gray'. On the other side is Arabic sabâh 'morning' (sabâh al khayr 'good
morning') and aşbaḥ 'black, inclining to red', which has been "adopted" in Serbian via Turkish as
sabajle 'early in the morning'. And that sabajle resembles to Serbian sintagma "zabijeli se zora"
(dawn is lighting up the sky). Earlier mentioned Arabic aşbaḥ could be compared to aswad
'black' and to the Serbian noun osvit 'dawn, dayspring, daybreak' just as "black inclining to red".

A Blissful Blessing

Wednesday, 30. December 2009, 16:13:42

                                                 I almost forgot to comment the two footnotes I
                                                 have marked in my last article (White Wedding).
                                                 First is the English word bliss (spiritual joy; OE.
                                                 bletsian, bledsian ; Serb. blaženstvo; from blag
                                                 'placid', blažen 'blissful, placid'; Russ.
                                                 блаженство), which appeared to be related with
                                                 bless, although I didn't find any serious
                                                 etymologist who would be ready to link these two
                                                 words explicitly. It is interesting to mention that
The Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology says that bliss may be relate to blood (!). Chambers
(Etymological Dictionary of the English Language, p. 42), for instance, related bliss with OE
bletsian 'consecrate' and Gothic blotan 'sacrifice, kill', while Skeat (Etymological Dictionary, p.
52) was more specific, saying that the "original sense (of bless) may have been 'to consecrate
by blood' (also Kluge, "sprinkle with blood" - English Etymology, p. 20-21).

In his book, with an indicative title: A Dictionary of True Etymologies (p. 22), Adrian Room is
resolute: ""The derivation of the word is not from 'blessed' but from an Old English word related
to 'blithe'. ('Bless,' unexpectedly, is related to 'blood')". The authors of The Oxford Introduction to
Proto-Indo-European (p. 194), Mallory and Admas, introduced the PIE root *wolno/eha- (Lat.
volnus, Gr. οὐλή, Skr.      vraṇa. Of course, a small umlaut "correction" and it is possible to
relate bledsian to sprinkle with blood' to blood and bleed (ses Lyle Campbell, Historical
Liguistics, p. 252), but the problem is that the same thing can be done with the word bliss.
Namely, bliss appeared to be unrelated to to bless, although it is related to blithe

Now, let us compare English bless and bliss with Serbian blag 'mild', blagosloven 'blessed' and
blažen 'blissful' (Vasmer, I, p. 171; Russ. блажен 'blissful, placid', благословение 'blessing,
benediction'). It seems obvious that Slavic languages have the similar words for both bless and
bliss. In Czech and Serbian, the word blaženost could be translated as bless as well as bliss;
and that word is a derivative of blag (Cz. blaho 'bless, bliss'). Here we could compare Slavic and
Latin words for blessing. On the other side are the Latin words, beatus ‘blessed happy’, bonus
‘good’ and benignus ‘kind, favorable, obliging’ and all three of them may be translated as
blessed. Is it possible that these words, together with those mentioned above (Slavic and
Germanic), originated from the common basis? If so, what that basis would be? Isidore de
Seville explains: “Beatus, blessed or happy, is as if bene ductus, well enriched, namely from
having what he wishes and enduring nothing he does not want” ( Isidore of Seville's
Etymologies: translated by Priscilla Throop; p. x.16). Does it not mean the same as English
bliss? Isidore also depicted a vague difference among those words and, in addition, mentioned
Latin blandus ‘flatering, charming person’. In Greek, the relation between bless and bliss is very
close to that in Slavic and Latin: ὄλβιος, ὄλβος ‘blest, happy’, ὀλβία ‘bliss’. Hence, it seems, the
question imposes itself: how it happened that only Germanic languages connected ‘blood’ and
‘happiness'/bliss’. Does it make sense at all?

From his own side, Fransis Volpey suggested three possible sources of the Latin word beo
‘make happy, bless’. First was the Greek word βίος ‘life’, and alternative was βύω ‘to stuff, to
fool’ and βέο ‘to go’ βέομαι ‘Ishel live’ (probably related to βαίνω ‘step, walk, βαίνειν , make to
go’). To add a little more confusion, let us mention Czech blázen ’fool’ vs. blažený ‘blissful,
beatific’ (Serb. bulazniti ‘talk nonsense’, blesa ‘fool’). What about English fool and full; are these
two words related or not? Fool comes from Latin follis ‘a leather bag, bellows, purse, puffed-out
cheek’, which is from its side related to flatus –us ‘blow, inflate’ (cf. Serb. nabudžiti, budžiti
,bulge’, buđelar ‘purse’, bešika ‘bellows, bladder’). Now, although it might look as some sort of
confabulation, it seems, wherever we look we can see the same “progenitor” word, which
sounded close to that “imaginary” basis — named earlier *belgh-ghno- (White Wedding).
Greek βαίνω appeared to be akin to Latin venio –ire ‘come, arrive’, and its pro- prefixed form
πρρβαίνειν ‘come forward’ seems to be the same kind word as Serbian probijanje ‘pushing
forward’ (cf. Skr.     prabādh, ‘drive, urge’, Serb. probadati ‘to pierce, puncture’. In reality, it
may be that all the above mention words originated from the one unique word-well-generator.
Like in the Bible: in the beginning was the word. Actually, beginning may be of a key importance
for the understanding of the process of the branching of words. How can we suppose that, for
instance, Serbian početak ‘beginning’ may be related to English beginning, if we do not start to
analyze all possible semantic links between these two words. The true is that phonetic laws
could be of great help in certain cases, but, on the other hand, they might be a big obstacle in
the process of understanding of the evolution of human speech. There are many irregular
changes to take the sound laws as an undeniable “measure of the truth”.

One more example: what to say about possible kinship of the Serbian word polazak, polaženje
‘to start/to go off’, moving forward’ and Latin pulsus ‘im-pulse, beating, blow’. Just when I
thought that Serbian polaz ‘setting off, departure’ and the verb puknuti ‘blow up’ were derived
from the same “proto-word” as it happened to Latin pullsus (Serb. *bəl-gh-ghən- => puknuti
‘explode, blow up’; English blow probably used the same *bəl-gh- “basis”, doesn’t matter in what
sense, strike or inflate), the “other” word, similar to pulsus, with the meaning of pulse ‘porridge’
came to “blow up” the “prearranged celebration”. Logically, when the thing bulged/inflated to an
extreme it had to explode/blow up (the simple law of physics; Latin ex-plodo = Serb. is-paliti ‘to
fire off’). Latin puls might be related to Serbian pasulj ‘bean’ (Gr. φάσηλος), and Latin phaselus
‘boat, kanu’ (in accordance to the bean-pod shape of the vessel). Now, visiting Lithuanian
dictionary we can find the word pasaulis, which means ‘world’ (similar in Serbian,
vaseljena/vasiona ‘universe’). What is happening here? We started with φάσηλος ‘bean,’
phaselus ‘boat, vessel’ (as we can see, vessel came from Lat. phaselus; Gr. φάσηλος), and
ended with pasaulis ‘world’ and vaseljena ‘universe’. Close to vaseljena is the Byzantine
emperor, Βασίλειος (Basileios; Serb. p.n. Vasilije). At this moment we are coming to the point
where all the above thinking proves or disproves itself. Is it not truth that vessel (boat) belongs
to the kind of transportation device?

Then, if vessel (form phaselus, which sounds very similar to Serb. vozilo ‘vehicle’, Skr. vāhika)
is transportation device, could that word not be of the same origin as Latin vehiculum –i? In this
case things appeared to be self-evident: Latin vehiculum is a compound word consisting of the
words veho ‘convey', drive’ and col- ‘something round, round-shaped’ (like oculus ‘eye’; in
Serbian too: vozi ‘drive’ + kolo ‘wheel’ (*vohi-həlo => vozi’lo, contraction; cf. Cz. vozidlo
‘vehicle’). Nevertheless, although the above “explanation” of the origin of vehicle sounds pretty
plausible, it is hard to say what pasulj ‘bean’, vaseljena/vasiona ‘cosmos’ and Βασίλειος ‘the
Byzantine emperor’ have in common with the notion of driving. Maybe, it is just a coincidence, a
chance resemblance, vessel, vozilo, vehicle? Of coarse, it becomes clear that pasulj (Gr.
φάσηλος) has been named like that in accordance with its round or kidney-like form. Latin
vesica ‘bladder’ is obviously the same word as Serbian bešika ‘bladder’, and this Serbian word
may be a Romanian loanword (băşică; Petar Skok, Etimologijski rječnik Hrvatskoga ili Srpskoga
jezika, I, p. 141), but it doesn’t change the fact that bešika and vesica (vesiculum; băşică)
acquired their names thanks to their round form. Actually, bešika (vesica) is derived from the
basic IE proto-form, which sounded closely to the “root” *bəl-gh- (many times mentioned here).
The basic meaning of such a proto-form is lump or round formation (Serb. oblo ‘round’ OSl.
обьлъ, Lat. bulla ‘swelling’, oval ‘egg-like’, OE belgan ‘to swell – with anger’, bylg ‘bulge, bag’,
Eng. bulge; Gr. βῶλος ‘lump, clod of earth’, Skr. bhūgola ‘earth, globe’ – probably a metathesis
of *bulg-).

The other meanings of the above-mentioned “root” are derived differently in different IE
languages. In Serbian, for instance, oblo ‘round’ branched later into words like obliti ‘pour over,
suffuse’, obilaziti ‘go arround, to visit’, oblaziti ‘go around’, obilaznica ‘detour’, obilaženje
‘detouring’, polaziti ‘start, to go off, depart’. Similar process can be followed in English too: from
ball, visit to begin. Now, I hope, we can see the multitude of sound changes that hardly may be
traced down in a satisfactory manner (assimilation, dissimilation, metathesis, aphaeresis,
haplology, epenthesis, elision, umlaut, ablaut etc.), and, what seems to be the biggest problem,
there are a lot of unpredictable changes that can not be subjected to any regular rule. For
instance, we can only “understand” the process of phonetic mutation, which split up the *bəl-gh-
basis to three different words with different but close meanings: one is the above-mentioned
palaz-ak ‘setting off’, then it comes pogon ‘driving force’, and finally – početak, počinjanje
‘beginning’. The both words, English beginning and Serbian počinjanje ‘beginning’ appeared to
have the same morphology, both have bə- prefixed form of the common '”stem” *ghon-. This
*ghon-, as a bound morpheme (almost always) indicates a certain kind of movement/motion (cf.
Ger. beginnen ‘begin, start, commence’, begegnen ‘meet, encounter’, begehen ‘do, execute,
perform, do, commit’, gehen ‘go, move, proceed’, gegen ‘opposite, contra, against’; gucken
‘see, gaze, watch’). In Serbian language, the same morpheme is turned to *čin- (počinjati ‘begin’
(Russ. начинать, Cz. zahájit, začátek, začínat, Pol. zaczynać), počiniti ‘execute, do, commit’
(Russ. учинить, Ita. iniziato ‘initiate’; from Lat. initio ‘initiate’ ab initio ‘from the beginning’, Russ.
от начала), a clear-cut counterpart to German begehen (Serb. počiniti nedelo ‘to commit the
crime’). All the above-mentioned words might be considered as cognates.

Latin pello pellere ‘beat, drive out, push, strike, drive away’ and bello bellare bellavi, bellatus
‘fight, struggle’ may be of great/crucial importance for the understanding how the IE vocabulary
was evolving. Pulsus ‘stroke, beat, pulse, impulse’ seems to be close to Serbian bilo, bijenje
‘throbbing, pulse’ (Russ. биение), as well as to Greek βάλλω/βαλέω ‘throw’ (Russ. валить ‘hurl,
throw’; Serb. dial. obaliti ‘fall down, throw’). There is almost no doubt that these words (all
seemingly derived form *bəl-gh-ghən- basis) are “cousins” to other “younger” words as Serbian
ubijanje ‘killing’, boj, bitka ‘battle’, bolan ‘ill, sick’ (Russ. больной), bol ‘pain’ (Russ.боль),
ubadanje/bodenje ‘stabbing, piercing’ (Russ. пробивать, пробить ‘gore, to hole’), paliti ‘burn,
spark , burn, stoke a fire, ignite’ (Cz. vypalovat; Russ. воспламенять), opaliti ‘fire off’ (Russ.
выпалить). It can hardly be a coincidence that, in this case, Latin and Serbian have the words
with a similar phonetics: vulnus ‘wound, mental/emotional hurt’ and bolan ‘painful’, flamma
‘blaze, flame’ and plamen ‘flame, blaze’, even bello bellare seems to be a cognate to Serbian
borenje ‘fighting, batlle’ (obviousli from “bol-hre-ghne with the loss of the sound [l]).

                                                    Maybe I am not able to explain precisely
                                                    (especially not in English) what I have in mind,
                                                    but the main point of my above meditation is my
                                                    attempt to “instigate” an unconventional
                                                    approach to the field of comparative linguistics.
                                                    Namely, how it would be if we did take all the
                                                    three (above-mentioned) Valpy’s “alternatives”
                                                    (life, to go, to fill full) as correct? Does it not make
                                                    sense? The Slavic word bogat ‘wealthy’ (Cz.
                                                    bohatý, Russ. богатый, OSl. богатъ) may be
                                                    derived from *bolgat"-; again, the “solution” of this
enigma may lie in the Latin words — opulentus opulenta ‘wealthy’ and abundus ‘copious’ or in
Greek πλούσιος ‘wealthy’ (Lacon. πλούσιος); all word related to English plenty (Latin plēnus
‘full’, Slavic polno). In Serbian, blago has meanings ‘be well’, ‘treasure’, ‘livestock’ (Russ. для
блага народа for the wellfare of the people) and it indicates that the above assumption, that
bogat came from *bolgat (one who possess blago, treasure or livestock, all the same) is
probably true. Vasmer (I, p. 182) connects bogat to the Slavic noun bog ‘god’ (OSl. богъ, Cz.
bůh, Russ. бог, божество), but, according the above analysis, these two words cannot be
linked directly. Bog ‘god’ probably acquired that name thanks to his greatness, big (Serb, velik
‘big, bulk’; Serb. veliki bog ‘god is great’, ‘almighty god’; Russ. Великий Бог; Cz. veliký). A
special curiosity here: the English word big is phonetically closer to the Slavic word bog, than
Slavic velik ‘big’. However, there is the Russian word большой (bol''shoj) ‘big’, which may
possibly explain a lot of things about the name of the Slavic god (bog).

Slavic blagosloven ‘blessed’ could be the same word as Latin benedictus (from *belgne-dict-)
and both words have the same meaning. It also can hardly be considered as a coincidence.
Now we can go back to Saint Isidore’s words mentioned above: beatus –a -um ‘blessed,
blissful’, bonus -um, ‘good’, benignus –a –um ‘kindly, mild, affable’ and try to figure out that all
they might be derived from the same and unique agglutinated proto-word. The same proto-word
was probably used by all IE languages. I would say that the relation between bless and bliss
was better understood in earlier times (see on the left what Wedgwood rote in his etymological

Dušan Vukotić skolalukicevo-etymology

White Wedding

Wednesday, 30. December 2009, 12:02:27

White Weding PDF 220 kb

There is/was a saying in Serbia, odveli/oteli su nam devojku (they took our girl away) usually
spoken by parents and girl's relatives after the wedding. It was like that for centuries: groom was
considered as a sort of "pirate" and those who dared to "steal" the girl were never seriously
condemned by society. On the contrary, those who committed such "crime" were secretly
praised among their friends and neighbors. In the above case (p.p. odveli 'taken away') we have
to deal with the Serbian verb voditi 'lead' (Cz. vést, vodit, Russ. вести, при-водить, OSl.

Now, if someone suggested that English wed is related to the Serbian/Slavic word voditi 'lead', I
suppose, everyone would be laughing. Nevertheless, let us be more patient and try to
reconsider this (mine) suggestion. The same pattern seems to have been used on the soil of
whole Europe and people in the West as well as those in the East used to grab (i.e. to take by
force; Serb, grabiti 'grab') their future wedded wife/bliss1. If we thumb more carefully through the
Slavic dictionary we are going to find some words that may be cognates to English wed. For
instance, there are the Serbian word svatovi, svadbeni 'nuptial', svadba 'wedding ceremony',
svatovska povorka 'wedding procession', where, as we can see, the above-mentioned Slavic
verb voditi, od-voditi (lead, to take away) is omnipresent. In addition, there is the Serbian word
svodnik, that, according to the above words and their original logic, has an unexpected meaning
- pimp!

Farther, there are words zavoditi 'seduce' and zavodnik 'seducer' (Russ. соблазнять 'seduce';
Cz. svůdník 'seducer', svádět 'seduce' that, not by chance, reminds us of Serbian svaditi, svađa
'dispute, argument, broil'; Lat. suadeo -ere; -persuadeo, -suadere), who is the same sort of
villain/rogue as bludnik 'rake, wanton', and this word indicates that the proto-form of IE *wod-,
*wed- was *belgh-, an initial, maybe, more agglutinated/extended proto-word, which sounded
(roughly taken) like *belgh-ghno- (close to Engliish belggining => beginning). The Latin verb
seduco2, seducere has almost the same meaning as Serbian zavoditi 'seduce, lead astray, lead

An enormously interesting word is the Serbian noun nevesta 'bride' (Russ. невеста, Cz.
nevesta; Osl. невѣста), because nevesta is ne-uzeta (Russ. взять 'take'); i.e. it is a girl, which is
"not yet taken" (Vasmer, не и ведать; III, p. 54). In fact, Slavic ne-vesta is the word with the
same meaning as Serbian ne-udata 'not married, unmarried'. The meaning of the Serbian word
udova/udovica 'widow' shows that udova (Russ. вдова, Cz. vdova, OSl. въдова) is a woman
who is "vodiva" (ready to be taken (away) again, free; od-vodiva). Following these etymologies
many researchers were confused with a great number of words, which are phonetically close
and whose semantics seem to be "intertwined". Old Slavic возити (Serb. voziti; Russian возить
, Cz. vozit, vézt) is clearly related to English way (German Weg, Goth. vagjan, OHG weggen,
ONor. bæsa 'drive'), Greek ὀχέων, ἔχειν, ἄγειν "keep doing, keep going', and Latin veho ere. In
Sanskrit there are almost all the forms of the verb 'drive' as in Slavic ( váhati, vákṣi , voḍham,
voḍhvam , ūḍhvam , úhāna, uvāha , ūhúḥ , ūhé, vakṣyáti; Monier Williams, p. 933) and among
such words very indicative are two forms of that word: one is voḷham, which reminds us to the
Slavic word vlak 'train', and the other is voḍhā 'led home married', which asserts the above-
mentioned suggestion that *wed- originally meant 'to lead away' (Slav. voditi).

In Old Icelandic there is a word bæsa -ta, -tra, which means 'to drive cattle into the stall' and it
could be taken as a counterpart word to the Serbian verb uvesti 'to bring into'. Here we can
understand the origin of the word vezati 'bind' (Russ. вязать, связывать, Cz. svázat, OSl.
вѩзати) - it comes from the same proto-word as Serbian vijanje 'driving, chasing', vijugav
'winding', and uvijanje 'winding, binding' (Russ. вить; hence Serb. vez 'embroidery'). Sometimes
certain words may be absolutely different in phonetic sense, although they have appeared from
the same "womb", like Russian вышивание 'ebroidery', which is related to вязание 'binding'
(Serb. vezivanje 'binding') and Serb. ušivanje, šivenje, šiti, šav 'needle, sew, stitch', which lost
its initial syllable vi- or replaced it with u-. Surprisingly or not, we can see that Serbian vijuga
'convolution, wind, row, girus' (cf. Skr. vīthī 'line, row') is the word from the same "depot' as
English way or German Weg, and Latin via, viae 'road'. Actually, Serbian vezanje 'binding' is
nothing alse but vijuganje 'wriggling' (so, in that sense, Greek ὄφις 'snake' is the "winding"
animal; cf. ὀφεώδης 'snake-like', equal to Serbian uvojit 'curled, coiled').

The Serbian words for water, wind and fire (voda, vetar, vatra) are closely related to the winding
movement, similar as in English (wind, winding, weather, winter; OE. windan, Serb, uvunuti
'twist', vintanje 'circumvolution' ). Here we must follow the Latin words like vulgus, volate, vello in
order to grasp what the "original output" of similar IE words was the above-mentioned basis
*belgh-ghno-, like in Serbian words put 'road, path', pod 'floor, bottom', putovanje 'traveling'.
namely, Serbian putovati 'to travel' comes from a previous form *bludovati, the same proto-form
from which the other Serbian words were born, like blud 'wanton, lust, whoredom', lud 'crazy'
and latalica 'a tramp' (cf. Latin vulgo originally 'divulge, circulate, prostitute'). In this context, it
would be interesting to see if the word lunatic is linked to Slavic lud, ludak 'fool' (OSl. лудъ), in
some Serbian dialect luntor (crazy man, wanderer, tramp), also landarati 'to move freely in an
uncontrolled manner'.

It seems that we have gone to far away from our "wedding" and therefore let us return to the
subject by saying that the Serbian word udata has the same "value" as English wedded (Eng.
wedded wife = Serb. udata žena; and Eng. widow = Serb. udova). Old Slavic дѣва 'virgin,
                                                                vice) is the grown up, mature girl,
which is ready for "abduction" (Serb. odvoditi), and in Czech language, there is a word děvka
(whore), now related to Slavic davati (Serb. podavati se 'to indulge in sex easily'; OSl. -давати
'give away'). Also, the Czech word vydávat 'give' supports the supposition that wedding is a
process of "giving away" (Serb. odvoditi); i.e. it is a process of the implementation or bringing (of
a woman) into the house (Serb. uvod 'prelude', uvoditi 'introduce'. Additionally, the Slavic verb
davati/dati 'give' is also related ti the verb voditi 'lead' (dovoditi, dovesti 'bring', odvoditi, odvesti
'taking away'. Slavic davati is derived from the ancient form *gebh- (cf. Ger. geben 'give'), and it
means that some sort of a "sound hierarchy" must be introduced in a serious investigation,
because we can suppose that velars are the "first", "primal layer" of the speech sounds, while
dentals belong to the much younger layers of sounds. For instance, we must precisely examine
how it happened that the primal form *gebh- was turned to *dav- in Slavic. Nevertheless, that
initial form was kept in word gubiti 'lose' (OSl. гоубити).

We can also remark that the above-mentioned word svat 'a member of the wedding procession'
sound very similar to the word svet 'world', svetina 'a multitude of people' and svetkovanje
'celebration'. Is there anything more or is it just a chance resemblance? There are some
possible explanation for these enigmas:

1) We have already seen that verbs zavoditi 'seduce', svađati 'quarell', zavideti 'be envy' may be
"constructed" on the basis of voditi 'lead', but we may suppose that the verb videti 'see' is also
involved here as a principal ingredient of those words. What is then a possible relation between
voditi and videti (OSl. видѣти)? Is there any other Slavic word that may be common for both of
these words? What about buditi 'wake up' (OSl. боудити)? It seems that the voiced bilabial /b/ is
on the first level of the above-proposed "sound hierarchy" (as a "parent"), while voiced /v/,
voiceless /p/ and fricative /f/ are certain sort of "children". If it had been true, then we could have
said that the verb buditi was a progenitor of voditi and videti. Philosophically, such a premise
could have been taken as really possible, because the process of waking up comprises in itself
the both notions: seeing and motion (running, circulation).

2) Slavic svet (OSl. свѣтъ) appeared to be logically related to svitanje 'day-break, dawning',
svitati (OSl. *свьтѣти; see Vasmer, III, p. 575). The Old English word woruld, worold might be
interpreted differently than wer- + old (Kluge-Seebold, p. 885, Torp-Falk, p.21), because the
present explanation sounds rather unconvincing and strained. Would it not be more conceivable
if we presume that English world is related to German Urvelt 'primeval world'? Bosworth's
Anglo-Saxon or-eald (see p. 270; "very old") suggest a connection to German Ur-Welt ("old
world"; see William Bell, Shakespeare's Puck, p. 94-95). It means that Ur-Welt could, through
the metathesis, become world (*urwold => wurold => world). And German Ur-Welt might be one
of few Ur-bases (*xur-bhel-ghn-), that generated thousands and thousands of IE words. Among
them is Slavic "world" too - svet (from *survelt => *svelt => svet). Of course, this kind of
deliberation deserves a much deeper analysis in the future.

3) English white is probably related to both Slavic words, svet and cvet/kvet (Cz. květ, OSl.
цвѣть; Vasmer, IV, p. 292-293), but it could indirectly be related to wed. Although it might look
strange the genuine "root" of white and svet is *bhel-ghno-, and those words, Slavic and
Germanic are compound words; i.e. prefixed as in Serbian za-beleti, iz-beliti. Hence we've got
Slavic svitanje 'dawning' and svetlo 'light, bright' (a metathesis from *s-belt-, s-velt-; cf. Ger. Welt
'world'). The Serbian words like beljenje 'bleaching', paljenje 'blaze, light up, ignition', planuti
'flare up' are obvious derivatives from the above mentioned Ur-basis. Even English fire came
from that same "root" (related to Gr. πυρά 'to kindle fire', Serb. purenje, puriti 'burn', Lat. flagro -
are), i.e. fire is coming from Latin flagro (cf. flare) in the same way as Serbian puriti has lost the
sound [l] (*pulrenje, like in Lat. flagro; from *bhel-her).

Slovak: etymológia páčiť sa

Friday, 16. October 2009, 07:20:53

Dobrý deň,

Niekto by mohol mi povedať, aký je pôvod slovesa páčit sa?

Serbian po-učiti, pouka 'advice, lesson'; a compound word: po-, ob- 'about, around, to surround,
all over' + oko 'eye'; similar in Serbian ob-učiti 'to teach' (Russ. об-учать, Cz. vy-učovat 'teach';
Russ. dial. бака = око 'eye'; cf. Serb. uočiti 'to see', učiti 'learn'. Russian пока 'while, till, untill,
meantime' literally means po oka 'on eye, after eye'; therefore the Russian greeting paka(!)
'goodbye!, see you again' contains the same connotation as до свидания 'good-bye' - 'untill I
see you again'; cf. Serb. do-gledno 'foreseeable', dok 'while, till, until, meantime', i.e. do oka 'to
the eye', dokle 'while, till when', dakle 'therefore, hence' (Russ. paka used prefix po- while Serb.
dok is do- prefixed + oko 'eye'; cf. gledati 'see', ogled 'experiment', ogledalo 'mirror', ugled
'reputation' or "how a person is seen by the public eye"; Lat. oculus oculi). Do gledanja! = Until I
see you again!

OTOH Serbo-Croatian bočiti vs. pačati 'to encounter, confront' is probably related to bak/bik
(bull) and the verb bosti 'jab, prod' (bodenje bikova 'bull-fight', baktati se 'to cope with', pro-
badanje/pro-bijanje 'twinge, piercing, breakthrough'); i.e. bijenje 'fighting', ubijanje 'killing', biti
'fight, beat'; cf. pod-bočiti 'to support, to lean on, to lever'; hence bok 'flank', bočno 'abeam,
sideways' and poluga 'bullion, lever'; all the above words seem to be derived from PIE *bhalg-,

Turkish ada (island)

Monday, 12. October 2009, 14:07:32

What is the etymology of the Turkish word "ada" (Serb. ada; from Turkish)?
I tried many books but couldn't find anything essential. I would be very grateful if someone could
give me some hints...
Yusuf B Gursey Wrote: well, there is H. Eren's turkish etymological dictionary (in turkish) and
Doerfer's Turkic and Mongolic loanwords in New Persian - TMEN (in german). a loanword in
persian as ada:G (G = *gh*, frequently represented by greek gamma)

Azeri ada , Turkmen ada , Kazan Tatar ataw , Bashkir ataw , Karakalpak ataw , Chuvash ută
(variant: otă) .
Codex Comanicus atov , Chaghatay (the standard of post-mongol eastern turkic) adaq

the earliest attestation is in Ibn Muhanna's dictionary of eastern turkic as adaG in the 13th cent.
. but it is considerably older than that (it is archaic) as evidenced by its presence in Chuvash.
that it has been in Chuvash for some time is evidenced by its presence as a Chuvash loanword
in Cheremiss otŏ and Votyak (Udmurt) as oton . so it is not a loanword in Chuvash from other
Turkic languages. Chuvash is estimated to have diverged from the rest of Turkic by about 2000
years or so, give or take a couple of centuries.

the reconstructed proto-form given by Doerfer is *a:taG .

nevertheless, many turkic languages have derivatives of Old Turkic otruG "island". Kazan Tatar
normally uses utraw . Chuvash has the variant utrav which is regarded as a loan from other
turkic languages. probably Kazan Tatar. in Altay (S. Siberia) and Baraba it is ortalIk , with
variants in neighboring turkic langauges, leading one to suspect that this word has to do with
orta (<= ortu, orto) "middle" of something.

there is also aral "island in other turkic languages, not an old word. I assume from ara /?<= a:ra/
"between, space in between, middle of a thing, locality".

the logic is that early eastern turkic preserves -G / -g after the second syllable, later eastern
turkic transorms it to -q / -k ,languages like Kazan Tatar, Karakalpak transform it into -w, Oghuz
languages (Turkish, Azeri,Turkmen) drop it, so does Chuvash, even if the voiced velar is in the
first syllable. Turkmen preserves the original long vowels. OTOH if there was intervocalic -d-
Chuvash has the sound change -d- => *-*dh*- => *-z- => -r-. soit must have been original -t-. the
voiced -d- can be explained as due to the original long vowel. hence *a:taG .

You see... ada is a clear-cut Turkish loanword in Serbian; but there is another Serbian word for
island - otok. Some phonetic similarity between these two words might, of coarse, be
coincidental. On the other hand, there are the Turkish words dağ 'mountain' and dağlamak
'brand, stigmatize', which might be in a certain mutual relation, similar to Serbian planina
mountain' and pečat 'stamp, seal, impress, stigma' (from *plekotina, Lat. bulla 'bubble'); the
Serbian verbs peći 'burn' and pečat 'stamp, seal, brand' are probable related via the noun plik

It is a long story and I have no time to explain it in all details, but the essence is that Turkish dağ
and dağlamak are standing in a similar relation as Serbian planina mountain' vs. pečat 'seal,
stamp, brand', i.e. peći 'burn'. Sanskrit   dah 'burn',       'mound' and Pers. daġ 'burn' (Ave.
dax) appeared to be related to both dağ and dağlamak (damga 'stamp'?).

The question is: is Turkish dağ related to dünya 'world' (similar as Latin globus is a kind of
swelling)? There is a Serbian word denuti 'hay mounting' and denjak 'bale, pack' (Turkish denk
'bale, pack', denge 'balance'). I don't know if Turkish denk is an original Turkish word or a
loanword from Persian (Skt.       dih 'increase, accumulate'). In this case, Serbian denjak 'bale'
seems to be clearly derived from denuti/dignuti 'elevate, hoist, heave, pick up' (Serb. denuti
seno 'to stack the hay', and u-tegnuti 'tighten' (Goth. deigan) but, nevertheless, it cannot be
excluded that it has been borrowed from Turkish.

Let us now go back to Serbian otok 'bump, island'. This word is clearly connected to earlier
oteklina and odebljanje/zadebljanje (swelling; all from *h/o-teh-(b)l-hna) and it might be, what is
astonishing, related to ada as well as to Turkish dağ and, possible, dünya. This might also
indicate that Turkic and IE used the same ur-basis for the all above-mentioned words.
Yusuf B Gursey Wrote: many arabic words entered turkish through persian, so a priori there is
no contradiction. I don't think dünya, the arabic dunya: has a simple arabic etymology (see my
post), is one of them as it is Qur'anic (so it could have entered through the study of the Qur'an)
and persian prefers a native persian word jaha:n (also jiha:n), that is also used in turkish, though
less frequently, as cihan (also used as a proper name, whereas dünya isn't). OTOH it is true
that many arabic words came through the intermediary of persian, as they agree in usage and
frequency with persian rather than classical arabic. historically, the Turks were first introduced to
Islam mainly through Persian (or if you like Tajik, i.e. central asian persians) missionaries. this is
evidenced through the use of persian words for many fundamental religious terms. so came the
initial introduction to arabic, though of course, Turks began to study classical arabic on their
BTW colloquial arabic words in Turkic languages is extremely rare, in Turkish they are mostly
colloquial words as well, and are found in substantial numbers only in the dialects of Turkish in
SW Anatolia.

Iraqi Turkmen, essentially a dialect ofAzeri (not to be confused with Turkmen of Turkmenistan
and adjoining areas), which uses the Turksish of Turkey for literary purposes, is really the only
Turkic language which has a high degree of colloquial arabic loans and direct arabic influence
not through bookish learning.

Maybe, the Sanskrit word         cihna 'sign, mark, stamp' could be of some help here. I am more
than sure that Serbian znak 'sign' is a cognate of Latin signum signi as well as I am sure that
znak was derived from the same basis as zemlja 'earth' (zemnik = znak 'sign'; sign originally
meant "an object on the land that marks the border of something"). There is another Skr. word
      sañcaka 'stamp, mould', a possible cognate of Turkish sancak 'sanjak, district, flag,
ensign'; cf. OTur. sanç- 'pain, twinge, _stitch_'; a similar logic as Serbian ubod 'stitch' vs. obod
'margin, border'). Now we can speculate about Turkish cihan (derived from the OPers. gēhān
'universe') as to be related to Greek γη                  'from the earth', ModGr. γήινος 'earthly'.

Sign (znak, oznaka, Tur. simba from signum or, more plausible, from Gr. σύμβολον 'symbol',
which is the same word as the above-mentioned Serbian zemnik, from *he-ml-gnik => zemljanik
=> zemnik => znak) is also related to znanje 'knowlede' and hence, probably, the Serbian word
zanat 'art, ploy, craft, trade' (Skr. jñata 'knowledge'; Serb. znati 'to know how'; zanimati se 'to be
interested in'). In fact, the word znanje 'knowledge' is logically connected to the words
znak/oznaka 'sign' because we can not acquire any new knowledge without the learning the
"signs' first; and, at the dawn of humankind, those signs were the signs that were put/found on
Earth (na zemlji; zemlja 'earth'; Serb. znamen, znamenje, znak 'sign').

Of course, I do not know is it possible to draw a similar parallel among these words in Arabic
(sancat 'craft' etc.)

As you say Kriha, Slavic otok (Russ. отекать 'swell'; OSl токъ) is 'swelling bloating, bump' and
that word, of coarse, is related to tok 'flow' - nobody denies it. But, otok is also related to words
like debljina 'fatness, thickness' and tegljenje 'towing. Tug'. as I said above, otok is the same
word as Serbian oteklina 'swelling' (from *ote [h]-bl-gn-). In fact, Serb. tegljenje 'tugging' is
nothing else but udaljavanje/_udaljenje_ 'to make a distance, to move away' and it is clearly
related to the movement (flow) of water (Serb. odlinuti 'to pour out', odlivanje 'decanting' =>
udaljavanje 'distancing'. Slavic tok is, in fact, derived from the same basis as the above-
mentioned words, including other words from the root *do(b)l-g- (a variation of *ohe(h)-bl-gn-),
like Serbian dug 'long' (from *dol-b-g-; Russ. долго, Cz. dlouho, Pol. długi).

Łobuz vs. Lupež

Sunday, 11. October 2009, 19:35:33

Originally Posted by sokol View Post
But łobuz don't looks Slavic to me - and I can't see a Germanic or Romance root in this word
either (if anything then the latter - Latin "lupus - wolf" probably??); Baltic is a possible but I
wouldn't consider it very likely.
Pity, but I can only guess here.

Here is what Brückner said about łobuz:

(Słownik etymologiczny języka polskiego, p. 310)

łobuzie (15. wiek), 'zarosłe', łabuzie, łobozg, 'zielsko, chwasty'; »w błocie, łabuziu i trzcinie*,
»lichym łabuziskiem*; słowo dziś za pomniane, ocalało w nazwie łobuza, 'ulicznika', łobuzować
(się). Postać zmienna, tak co do pnia, jak i co do przyrostka, np. Marcin z Urzę dowa pisze: »w
Labuziu* (t.j . ła buziu), W. Potocki: » rzucane w łobazie dziecko*, »grzechów łobazy*. Słowo
istnieje tylko u nas i na Rusi, tam oznacza i wszelakie 'przy bory z plecionek'/ a wkońcu i całe
'budy, kramy', łabaznik 'handlarz zbożem czy mąką'. Nazwy: Łoboz; Łobzów, Łobżenica. Łobuz
o 'uliczniku' całkiem dowolne (por. lampart). Pień łab-, łob- (por. wyżej łabaj?) znamy zresztą z
serb. i czes. lábati, 'chłeptać, łykać', słowień. lábotati, 'paplać'; rus. łaboz, 'pochlebca', łabzit',
'schlebiać'; cerk. łobzati, czę stotliwe łobyzati, 'całować'.
As much as I can understand Polish, Brückner says that łobuz means 'hooligan, rascal, a street
urchin' (cf. Slvn. hlapec 'urchin', Serb. klipan). This sounds to me as if it is close to Serbian
lopuža/lupež 'scamp, rascal, thief' and these two words (łobuz and lopuža) may be closely
related. It could possible be somehow connected to Latin lupus (Brückner mentioned lampart
'leopard'?). He also mentions Serbian and Czech lábati 'slurp, gulp', but I couldn't find that word
neither in Czech nor in Serbian; althogh there is a Serbian word lapati 'slurp' (from halapljiv
'piggish, voracious', halapljivac 'glutton', h/alav 'greedy', po-hlepan 'greedy') and that word(s)
may be linked to lopuža/lupež 'rogue, thief, rascal'. It also seems that Serbian lapati 'slurp' and
lapiti 'steal' are closely related to Greek          'to steal'.

Finally, Brückner compares Russian лабоз/laboz 'flatterer, sycophant', but I think it can hardly
be directly related to Polish łobuz, albeit, for example, Serbian laskati 'flatter' (from oblizati, lizati
'lick') appears to be related to lisica 'fox' and lasica 'weasel'.

I forgot to mention that Serbian ala (hala 'dragon, monster, demon'), possible from alav/halav or
halapljiv 'greedy', might be the same "little monster" as Yiddish lobus. Ala is an extremely
voracious creature that eats people and whatever it finds in its neighborhood.

Ответ vs. Advise

Saturday, 10. October 2009, 08:56:09

I'd like to know the etymology of the russian words ответ (answer) and ответственности
(responsability), and how they are connected historicaly.

In Portuguese, these words ("resposta" and "responsabilidade") have the same Indo-European
root "espos-" (in Greek "spendo", to make a libation; in Latin "spondeo,ere", to promise, to
ensure, to make a commitment). I think that the Russian "ответ" and "ответственности" don't
have this Indo-European root, but I think they must have a similar root in Slavic languages.

Ответ 'answer' is an od- (from, of) prefixed вет (OSl вѣтъ; Proto-Slavic *větati 'advise, consult';
отъвѣтъ 'reply'). It seems that Vasmer hadn't been quite clear about this item. I suppose we
could connect this word with other Slavic words as videti 'see' (OSl видѣти 'see'), Serb. veće
'council', većati 'deliberate'; Russ. со-вет, со-вещание 'council'; Cz. od-po-vědět 'answer' etc...
It is interesting to mention that Slovenian od-po-vedati means 'cancel' (cf. Serb. za-po-vedati
'command'; Slvn. povedati 'say, tell'), and it makes a very unusual hint that it may be following a
similar logic as English cancel and council. I'm not quite sure, but Slavic *od-ved- might possible
be a "counterpart" word to English advice (Latin ad- + video; vision, visum).

I see no connection between the roots vět- and věd-.
In Czech: jednačenje po zvučnosti:
větiti = to speak (od-větiti to reply, vět-a sentence, oběceti < *ob-vět-ja-ti to promiss)
věděti = to know, a "new" verb formed from a (perfective?) stem of the verb viděti to see (he has
seen -he knows).

IMHO these two verbs are of different origin, vět- is not related to wit (which is related to vid-

No, -vetiti in Russian can be -vedati in Serbian (ispo-vedati 'profess') or po-vedati 'say, tel' in
Slovenian; although it can also be vet- in some other Serbian words: pripo-vetka 'tale, story,
narrative', sa-vet 'council, advice', za-vet 'conjure, oath'.

This is, obviously, a very difficult question. I think, first thing we have to do is to see if Serbian
većanje (counsel, advising; Russ. со-вещание, OSl съ-вѣтъ) is related to viđenje (seeing,
vision, sight; Russ. видение, Cz vidění). Nevertheless, I do not think that there is a big problem
with the different Slavic "roots": vet-, ved-, vet-, vid-, vod-, vad-, vat- because we acquired these
forms thanks to the processes of assimilation and ablaut just in order to denote and to name
another "close meaning". I suppose, the main problem lies in semantics and in the fact that all of
the above-mentioned "roots" must have commenced from a common "source". And what such
an assumed "source" may have looked like?

If the problem really has to be solved by comparing the meanings of any word from this group,
one by one, then there is a big job ahead of us (voditi, sa-vet 'council', vaditi 'scoop', vidati
'cure', videti 'see'). Personally, I would start from two words that are morphologically and
semantically rather distant: one is voda 'water' and the other is vlaga 'wetness'. My suggestion
here is that voda 'water' may be the "key" for the above enigma because water has some
characteristics which may be "incorporated" into our different ved- vet- and et cetera "roots".

Unfortunately, to fulfill similar task we must know the origin of the word voda 'water' itself and it
is hard to tell if, for instance, the words as water (voda), fluid and wetness (vlaga) are mutually
either more or less or none at all closely related. As I've already said, I believe that phonetic
rules are of no use in this specific example ; i.e. they seem to be absolutely worthless here. It
looks that words like voditi 'lead', videti'see' and -vedati/-vetiti 'speak' (Serb. propo-vedati
'preach') may have strong semantic connections; but even if it were the truth it would be very
difficult (albeit not impossible) to prove beyond any doubt.

It seems that Old Slavic обѣтъ doesn't necessarily go to *ob + vět, although it is generally
accepted among the linguistic circles. For instance, there is Slavic ubediti 'convince, persuade'
(Russ. убедить; убеждать, Serb. ubediti); Vasmer compares that word to Russian беда (OSl
бѣда/běda) 'misfortune, calamity, trouble, grief'. On the other hand there is a Czech adjective
navádějící 'abetting' (Serb. navoditi), which clearly indicates to the Slavic verb voditi 'lead'.
Finally, if we compare English bait/abet and Serbian/Slavic ubediti 'persuade' we may possible
be able to understand the huge dimension of the problem we are trying to deal with. How to
understand the semantic and phonetic similarity between Slavic obed/objed 'dinner, lunch, meal'
and English bite/bait? Is it just a coincidence? Slavic obed (OSl обѣдъ) is a compound word: ob
'around' + eda, estь, jesti 'eat'; cf. Serb. imperative po-jedi! eat!). Maybe, in this case, we should
pay more attention to the verb biti (beat; OE beatan).

A similar-confusing "relationship" could be "found" between Latin word suadeo -ere 'advise,
persuade' and Serbian svađa 'dispute' (from svoditi, zavoditi 'persuade, seduce'; Russ. об-
суждение 'discussion', об-судить 'dispute'; cf. Serb. svodnik 'pimp', Russ. сводник). It seems
that we here also have to deal with the Slavic verb voditi 'lead'.

That's a very strong suggestion indeed: that all those roots would go back to the same root
because they "look similar". Especially as you are completely discounting
phonetical/phonological evidence below.

OK. Let me ask you this: advocate sounds similar to Slovenian odvetnik 'advocate'; are these
two words mutually related and are they both related to Russian ответ? Things appeared to be
much more complicated as to be resolved with the use of the established sound laws and rules.
For instance, is Czech odpovědnost 'responsibility' the same (but <po> infixed) as the Russian
word ответственност? It probably is. In that case, why we have the "stem" věd in Czech and
vet- in Russian?

Advocate comes from Latin ad + voco -are 'to call' (from PIE *wekw-; cf. Serb. vikati, viče 'cry,
yell, shout, scream'?) According to this, Latin advocātus is one who is "called as witness", while
Slovenian odvetnik is the one who answers instead of the defendant. Then... is Slavic ved-/vet-
also derived from *wekw- as vik-(Serb. vika 'noice')? Maybe, once Slovenian odvetnik sounded
as od-vek-nik; cf. većnik 'counselor'? And Russian ответить was originally ot-vek-ik? Namely,
one question imposes itself: is the Slavic vet- stem a "product" of a certain velar to dental sound
change (vek => vet)?

As you see, all these questions are legitimate and they have nothing to do with a folk-
etymological "adventure" that doesn't care about the internal structure of a word.

Finally, I haven't "discounted" neither phonetics nor phonology except in a specific situations
where those scientific branches cannot really be of any actual help.

Please note that there's a "novelty theories rule" in EHL: what you wrote above is just folk
etymology; if you want to continue pursuing this argument you must give us more than just
vague suppositions or bold but unsustained claims.

There is no neither "novelties" nor "theories" in my previous writings; I just tried to instigate a
curiosity among the respected members of this forum to help me to find answers to some
questions. Of course, my questions may have been insufficiently substantiated and I may have
missed a desirable "target", but my intention was far from thought to say anything new and let
alone postulate new theories or axioms.

So you claim that "voda", looking phonetically not too different from those roots, might be a
Another bold claim which don't goes beyond folk etymology.
Once again, I claimed nothing, I was just asking some questions and was looking for some
answers (suggestions) that I thought might be relevant in this specific case.

Arabic jabal

Saturday, 3. October 2009, 07:51:27

Arabic jabal (mountain) comes from the Semitic gbl root; maybe the same one from which the IE
words ample, oval, alp, cobble etc. are derived?; PIE and Proto-Slav. *h/obl- (round, swelling,
mound, knob, tomb). Also, Semitic *gbl: Phoen. pl. gubulim 'territory, boundary', Ugaritic /gbl/
'mountain, rock', Mehri gǝbēl 'mountain'.

The same meanings with the similar sounding words could be found in Slavic languages: Serb.
obala 'coast, boundary', oblast 'territory', plany/planina 'mountain'; OSl. область; also humka
'mound, grave' (from *humul; gomila 'heap'; Lat. cumulus/tumulus: maybe Arab. jumla
'complete, all together').

On the other hand, there are Semitic /gbl/ words with the meaning 'knead, mix, shape'; Arab. ğbl
'form, create'; cf. Serb. oblik 'form'; Russ. облик; oblati 'shape', oblikovati 'form, create', zaobliti/
uobliti 'make round', oblić 'abrader';

Interesting, Hebrew ‫ דבלה‬dǝbēlāh (round), from the Semitic /dbl/ root (round, lump, forming the
balls, fig cake); ‫ גבע‬geba 'hill', ‫ גביע‬gĕbiya` 'cup, bowl'.

Also ‫( כף‬hollow), Arab. kahf (cave) seems to be related to Akkadian huppu 'cave', from huballu
'hollow' (cf. Latin cubile 'bed, lair, den, nest; Russ. углубление; Pol. wgłębienie 'hollow'; Serb.
duplja 'hollow'; šupljina 'hollow, cavity'). We can also see that English hollow fits well to the
above "pattern" (from *hoblo- 'round, oval, ball').

There is no coincidence when the IE languages (especially those in Europe, compiled Albanian
excluded) are to be considered. Only problem is are we able to understand certain relations or
not. For instance, Latv. ābols (apple; Lith. obelis, obuolys) is related to Slavic *hablъko (Russ.
яблоко; Cz. jablko; Serb. jabuka), and all these words point to the round form of apple. The
similar situation is with pear in Slavic: hruša; Russ. груша, Serb. kruška; all from krug 'circle',
kružno 'circular, round'. The Lithuanian vocabulary follows Slavic 'circular' when pear (Lith.
kriaušė) is in question, although Lituanian 'circle' is a little bit "disguised" (Lith. skridinys, skrieti,
skritulys; Lat. riņķis 'circle'; cf. OE hring; Gr. κρικος/ κιρκος, Lat. circus). As far as I know, there
is no Latvian word for pear that is linked to circular/round form (Latv. bumbieris 'pear'; similar to
Serb. bumbar 'bumblebee' and verb bubriti 'swell'; cf. bubreg 'kidney').

Vasmer believed that Slavic bubreg (Russ.-ChSl. бубрѣгъ) was a loanword from Turkish böbrek
(Azerb. böiräk 'kidney'), but I think that he got it wrong.

There is the Serbian noun burag 'venter animalis, paunch, rumen, tripe'. Russian брюхо (Cz.
břich, břicho) 'belly, belly, paunch', which is derived from the proto-form *horb- (Slav. torba 'bag',
trbuh 'belly'; i.e. trbuh => briuh). Russian brüxo 'belly' is the source of Serb. burag 'tripe, rumen,
paunch'. As you can see, even the English word tripe may be related to trbuh 'belly' and torba
(bag?; cf. Serb. drob 'tripe'. Although the noun tripe might be related to Arabic therb 'suet' (via
Sp. tripa), its IE origin is absolutely unquestionable.

I have mentioned burag 'paunch' just to show how difficult is to understand were Old Turkish
bögür 'kidney' is coming from. For instance, Turkish bögür means 'flank, side' and appears to be
a cognate of Serbian bok 'flank'. It seems as if this Turkish word is a metathesized form of
böbrek (böbrek => börek => bögür, albeit it doesn't actually sound as a possible sequence of

Slavic bubreg is clearly related to the verb bubriti (Serb. bub-renje 'swelling') from the root *bubl-
(Cz. bublina 'balloon, bubble', Serb. pupak 'navel', pupiti 'tu bud, sprout', bubulja 'pimple', buba
'bug, lady bird, beetle'); Slavic burljanje 'stirring' (from *bul-hregn-, similar to vrenje 'ebullience'
and varenje 'digestion') is probable related tu bubrenje (metathesis: bubrenje <= bub/l/renje =>
bu/b/l- ranje => bul-ranje => burljanje).

Stefan Mladenov, for instance, concluded that torba 'bag' is derived from the common Aryan-
Altaic root *der. Bruckner says that torba is a cognate of trbuh. On the other hand, Skok
believes that trbuh is related to Russian brjucho, Polish brzuch and Czech břicho.

If brjucho, trbuh and torba were related (and they surely are), according to your logic, it would
necessarily imply that brjucho is also a Turkish loanword, would it not? Instead, Vasmer
compares brjucho with German Brust?

And what are we going to do with Slavic trup (Russ. труп, Cz. trup, Serb. trup) 'trunk, body,
torso'? Can you not see that trup and trbuh 'belly' are cognates? In addition, you can also see
that trunk has the same meanings as Slavic trup (trunk 'baggage' = torba 'bag', trup 'body' =
trunk 'body'; trup 'torso' = trunk 'torso').

Here it is, for instance, what Bugge said about Slavic *pъrsi (OSl. прьсь) and Germanic *brustz
(Ger. Brust). Have you ever read the other linguists who compared brust to Slavic *bъrdo 'hill,

And the possible metathesis of *t(e)rbuh => brjuxo may look like this: terbuho => tebruho =>
bruho (aphæresis).

The Ethnicities in the Balkans

Sunday, 13. September 2009, 12:10:29

Alexander the Great and questions on Macedonian Language

Until the end of WWII there has never been any Slavic tribe/ethnicity with the name
Macedonians. The modern Macedonian are either former Serbs or Bulgarians. Old Macedonian
was in fact one of the dialects of Greek (ancient Macedonian) and that name is often wrongly
used in the West as an alternative name for the Old Church Slavonic.

Old Bulgarian was a Turkic not Slavic language. In fact, Bulgars hadn't existed as Slavs and
their language hadn't been Slavic/Slavonic before the end of the 9th century when the ruling
Krum's Bulgars (a Turkic tribe), who imposed their power and their name over the
Slavic/Serbian tribes, were slavicized.

On the other hand, Old Slavonic became the official language of Bulgarian church and state in
the end of the 893, at the Preslav council; and, as we can clearly see, it happened 30 years
after the Moravian mission of Cyril and Methodius (863)!

Historically, it is indisputable that the region of of the Greek Macedonia was populated by the
Serbs (the first half of the 7th century when the emperor Heraclius of Byzantium invited the
Serbs to settle in the provinces of Salonica; later on, the town of Servia near Thessaloniki was
known as the capital of the Otoman sanjak of Serfije [Servia/Serbia]).

It is well known that Torlakian is a transition zone between Serbian and Macedonian/Bulgarian,
but if it shares as many features with the latter as the Wikipedia article suggests, the question
arises, whether it is fair to see Torlakian as a Serbian dialect at all.

Maybe this will help you to understand what has happened:

-The Serbian name Torlak means "one who speaks neither Serbian nor Bulgarian".

It is the reason why I said in my earlier post that the "Macedonian" is on the half way between
Serbian and Bulgarian.

There is still a large population of Serbs (Central Serbia for instance, Niš) who talk without using
the case inflection: "od Niš" 'from Niš' instead of "od Niša"; u Niš 'in Niš' instead of "u Nišu";
"pred Niš" 'in front of Niš' instead "pred Nišom" etc.

There are only two meanings of Torlak in Serbian (V. Karadžić): 1) torlak: ''ein Grosssprecher,
gloriosus, braggart''. 2) Torlak: ''čovjek koji niti govori čisto Srpski ni Bugarski'' (the person who
doesn't speak clearly both Serbian and Bulgarian).

In Bulgaria and Turkey there are meanings of Torlak like simpleton, boor, yokel. And, AFAIK no
one calls the Torlaks dogs; I wonder where did you find that?
Of course you are quite correct, Yusuf. Dushan likes to make these categorical statements
without any regards to different existing usages.

What "usage" has to do with the fact that the Old Bulgarian (Slavic) has never existed? Thirty
years after the Cyril and Methodius finished their job on O.Ch.-Slavonic, Bulgarians proclaimed
the Old Slavonic!!! (not Old Bulgarian) as the official language of the church and the state
(Preslav council 893.).

Once again; 30 years passed after the codification of the Slavonic language (SLAVONIC not
Bulgarian!) by Cyril and Methodius, until the Bulgarians adopted the Slavonic language (once
more, SLAVONIC not Bulgarian). Imagine that someone decide to name the Classical Latin as
"Classical Italian". Of course, nobody would ever accept a similar foolishness; but the same
"yardstick" should be applied in case of the Old Church Slavonic, should it not?

Even if you did not put "(slavic)" in your sentence it would still be quite clear from the context
that you speak of an old Slavic language called by many linguists "Old Bulgarian".

Again, what if the Classical Latin was called by "many linguists" - Classical Italian? Who would
authorize such a stupidity?

In English, "Old Bulgarian" is another name for Old Church Slavonic, and it is preferred by
Slavicists because it does not give the impression that the language is ancestral to all the extant
Slavonic languages.

You forget that the Old Church Slavonic was originally codified for the West Slavs (Great
Moravia, nowadays Czechs and Slovaks). Old Church Slavonic was an "artificial" language,
compiled in such a manner that it was equally distant and equally close to any existing Slavic
vernacular in those days.

These people were Slavs who considered themselves Macedonians. How does this square with
your claim about Tito?
You've got it wrong. I.M.R.O. was an organization of the Macedonian Bulgars which in the late
19th and in the beginning of 20th century tried to create autonomous Macedonia with the final
goal of unification with Bulgaria.

At that time and all the way to the end of WWII nobody in Macedonia considered himself to be
an ethnic Macedonian; the Slavs there were either Serbs or Bulgarian.

I think you should read more carefully. The Bulgarian Macedonians are in fact Bulgars in the
Greek province of Macedonia under Ottoman rule. Rebecca West was obviously thinking about
the Macedonian Bulgars, because Macedonia in those times was a part of Turkish Empire.

The seem to be no notion of a Slav Macedonian people before the Yugoslavian dictator Tito
invented it after WWII

Per Rønne is absolutely right. Tito's regime made that artificial ethnic group (Macedonians) and
artificial language (Macedonian) out of thin air. In a similar way Tito made up the Montenegrins.
Finally, Tito's atheistic(!) regime also created the only "ethnicity" in the world, which was based
on the religious affiliation - Muslims.

Before the WWII, the modern "Macedonians" in FYROM were either Serbs (a majority of
population) or Bulgars; the land of today's Montenegro was populated by the Serbs of Orthodox
and Muslim faith and a few Albanians; while Bosnia's population was in the most part
constituted of Serbs - Muslims, Catholic and Orthodox.

My father is much older than those FYROM Macedonians and Montenegrins; and I am almost
50 years older than the new-composed Bosniaks.

Your father is much older than the woman who lived in Macedonia in the 1930s and wrote about
it in 1942? He's older than the Macedonian Slavic activists about whom she wrote, who were
active in 1893? Well, if he doesn't remember them, then that's a problem with his memory, since
the documentation exists.
Read more carefully; she was writing about the Bulgarian movement in the Greek part of
Macedonia (IMRO), then occupied by the Ottomans, which main goal was the unification with
Bulgaria. [...The organization
was founded in 1893 in Ottoman Thessaloniki by a small band of anti-Ottoman Macedono-
Bulgarian revolutionaries, who considered Macedonia an indivisible territory and claimed all of
its inhabitants "Macedonians", no matter their religion or ethnicity.[3] Although in practice their
followers were primarily of Bulgarian origins.[4]...

How is that different from what you feel that Tito did? Presumably the people in Macedonia in
1945, who Tito declared to be "Macedonians", included Greeks and Turks who were still there,
right? What you just quoted above is a far cry from "thin air".

In this case Macedonia is taken as a name of a region and the people there were named
Macedoinians in accordance with that region (the Macedonians was a regional name); but
ethnicity is one thing and regional name is quite another. For instance, if you proclaimed the
Virginian (someone mentioned it earlier, maybe Per) ethnicity, would it not be from "thin air"?
Once again, IMRO (VMRO) was the Bulgarian nationalist movement and their main goal was
the incorporation of the whole region of Macedonia into the Bulgarian state.

from what I know about Yugoslav politics, and I had interpreted for a > mixed turkish - albanian
couple (both knew turkish as well as the other languages of the area) those that spoke
macedonian (or what is now called macedonian I don't want togetinto that discussion) as their
native language, where of Macedonian "nationality" and the rest the nationality > of their own
ethnic group, merely residents of Macedonia. I'll defer to Dušan if I'm wrong.

I am not sure if I understand you well, but nationality (in the Western sense of that word) is one
thing and ethnicity is another. As Turks/Albanians these people may be the FYROM nationals,
but their ethnicity is not "Macedonian" and their native language (mother tongue) cannot be the
"Macedonian", but Turkish or Albanian, respectively.

Of course, during these six decades of the existence of FYROM the ethnic "Macedonian
identity" has been built in a significant degree, especially after being fueled by the "old" myth of
the "Slavic Macedonians" and the greatest conqueror in history - Alexander the Great
(Macedonian!!!)... And who wouldn't like to be a "cousin" of Alexander the Great? :-)

I think the Catholics were called Croatians.

Before the WWII the majority of Bosnian Catholics considered themselves either Serbs or their
were undecisive about their ethnic affiliation. The same was in Dalmatia and Slavonia. If you
want to find out more about the creation of the Croats read the book "When Ethnicity Did Not
Matter in the Balkans", by John Fine.

In the beginning Croats were a small Slovenian tribe who spoke a kaikavian language
(Croatian) that was a transitional link between the Serbian and Slovenian language. In the end
of the XIX century, the Catholic Slavs in the territory of today's Croatia, didn't know what name
to choose for themselves (Slavonians, Slovins, Illyrians etc.; as Catholics they didn't want to
identify themselves with the Serbs anymore). Finally, they decided to name their nation and,
consequently, their "ethnicity" in accordance with the name of a small Slavic tribe (Croats),
situated on the border of present Slovenia.

Also, the major division amongst the Slav Balkan peoples seem to be whether they were
Christened from Roma or Nea Roma [Constantinople].

Yes, the Serbs and the former Serbs (Orthodox, Catholics and Muslims; Serbs, Croats and the
new-composed Bosniaks) were fighting the last Balkan war (1991-95).

that being said, Bosniak (in turkish bo*sh*nak) was a recognized community in ottoman times.
what seems to have taken place as I gather from your post is that the Bosniaks differentiated
themsleves from other slavic Muslims, as defined in Tito era Yugoslavia, and revived the
previous name for themselves. I will check if "Croatian:" is mentioned in ottoman sources (I will
have to search through Evliya C,elebi's travelogue), turkish hIrvat (ottoman turkish *kh*Irvat).
I generally agree, but in that case people have to find an unused name for themselves instead
of stealing the one already existed. Bošnjak is one of old Serbian family names and there are
thousands and thousands of Serbs who bear that surname for centuries. Bošnjak or Bosnian is
the man who is born and reside in Bosnia regardless of its ethnic origin. It was just a
local/regional name as Crnogorac (Montenegriner) or Makedonac (Macedonian); i.e. without
any ethnic connotation. In the Middle Ages, the Bosnian king Stefan (Stephen) Tvrtko was
crowned as the "King of Serbs, Bosnia and the Seacoast". And all the other medieval Bosnian
rulers (prior to Ottoman invasion) were "kings of Serbs" (only ethnic determinant ever mentioned
in those times).

BTW I didn't think Bosnian independence was a good idea, as it itself is a multi-ethnic
community. but boşnak also had the specialized meaning of the serbian spekaing Bogomils who
became muslim in exchange for certain privilages. thus, there is a historical basis for them to
consider themselves a seperate community.

Bogumilism (Bogomili, Patareni) was just the one of the Christian's sects, this time in the bosom
of the Christian Orthodox Church, which was influenced by the Manichaean dualistic idea of the
origin of the world. As you can see, it has nothing in common with any ethnic group.

It is just one of the stories produced with an intention to "justify" the "existence" of Bosniak
"ethnicity". The best answer to this Bogomil-Bosniak "thesis" is Mehmed Pasha Sokolović
(1506-1579), the Grand Vizier of the Ottoman Empire, whose cousin Makarije Sokolović was the
Serbian Patriarch from 1557 to 1571.

that still does not answer my point.

My view is also liberal when the self-identification is in question. You can say that you are a
member of some extraterrestrial community, if you like. Personally, I have nothing against those
who misused the name of Bosniak, making overnight a new ethnicity of that regional name.
Nevertheless, on the other hand, I think also that the truth has to be told, and the truth is that
neither Bosniak nor Bosnian has ever been considered as an ethnic group prior the last Balkan
War (1991-95).

What point are you trying to make? As I've already told you, Bogomils were the sect inside the
Orthodox Church - they were mainly the ethnic Bulgars or Serbs. Bogomils had nothing to do
with the ethnic affiliation. The Serbs themselves could be Catholics today because the Serbian
king Stephen the First-crowned was granted the title of the "King of Raška" in 1217 by the Pope
Honorius III. Two years later Stephen was crowned again, this time as an Orthodox king.of the
Serbs Of course, even if the Serbs did accept the Catholic faith they would still remain the

Most of the times helping isn't helping; it is a form of control and method for reduction of

The fact is, the former Yoguslavia would survive, despite of its internal contradiction, if their
dissolution hadn't been fueled from outside. Most of the Yugoslav people have never thought
about your fucking "diversity"; they wanted peace, a normal standard of living and the right to a
dignified life in general.

Just a century and a half ago your Slovenian "comrades" didn't exactly know what their
"diversity" was. They had more dialects than all the other Slavic world together, and they called
themselves regionally: Kranjci, Štajerci, Korošci etc. Finally, after being unable to rich an
agreement how to call their Kajkavian "world", they decided to take the common name of the
Slavs (Serb. Sloveni => Slovenci).

In fact, the modern Slovenians were those Croats, which had been mentioned by
Porphyrogenitus (De administrando Imperio); also known as Chorutani (Karyntianie, Chorutanie;
7th century AD). OTOH the modern Croats never existed in history before the second half of the
19th century, after they abandoned Illyrian name and took the name of a small Slavic tribe,
located at the border of the contemporary Republic of Slovenia, who could be named the
"Torlakians in the west of the Balkans" (people who spoke neither Slovenian nor Serbian).

What an unusual chain of events: the medieval Croats from Chorutanie (Carantania) became
Slovenians (Slavs), while the Serbs Catholics took over the Croatian (Chorutanian; Horvatian)
name... Interesting, isn't it?

Yugoslavia dissolved as a result of democracy ...

And what is a democracy anyway? Any multi-ethnic society must ban all the parties which might
be organized on the ethnic principles. Otherwise, that society would be doomed to self-

The former Yugoslavia experienced and paid such a thoughtlessness bloodily. Imagine what
would have happened in case if the USA had allowed the foundation of the ethnic or race
related political organizations?

Just a century and a half ago your Slovenian "comrades" didn't exactly know what their
"diversity" was. They had more dialects than all the other Slavic world together, and they called
themselves regionally: Kranjci, Štajerci, Korošci etc. Finally, after being unable to rich an
agreement how to call their Kajkavian "world", they decided to take the common name of the
Slavs (Serb. Sloveni => Slovenci).

"Slovenci" was introduced by Primož Trubar around 1550 (I already posted > links with
transaltions of his texts quite some time ago).

Absolutely irrelevant. He just used the common Slavonic name (Slovensko ime) as it was quite
natural in those times among the other South-Slavic tribes (Slovins in Dubrovnik; Slavonia - the
state incorporated into the Austro-Hungarian Empire; cf. Slovinski jezik, Slovenski jezik
'Slovenian and Slovinian language').

In the 11-12th century the region of old Carantania (which encompassed the territory of the
modern Slovenia) was known as Pagus Chrouuat (Zemlja Hrvata 'the Land of Croatians'). Of
course, it was not a land of the nowadays Croats, but the land of the present-day Slovenes.
White Croats (Byelohravati), a Slavic tribe which migrated from the north of Europe to Dalmatia
(the coastal part of today's Croatia) were in fact the ancestors of the modern Slovenians.
I agree. I was surprised too. but his earlier entry in french does not mention Montenegro. the
point was that there were people called Croates outside of then Austrian Croatia.

Not until he end of 19th century. For instance, there is a community of Catholics in the north of
Serbia (Subotica), called Bunjevci (people who moved to that area in the beginning of the 16th
century from Dalmatia, Lika and the Croatian littoral). Even in the Catholic Encyclopedia they
were referred to as Catholic Serbs: "Serbians who happen to be Catholic are called Bunjevaci."
After the Croatians finally chose their name (the second half of the 19th century), they tended to
equalize the Catholic faith with the new- coined name of Croatian. Above-mentioned Bunjevci,
who originated from the "heart" of the modern Croatia, where in fact the Catholic Serbs.
Actually, before the 1867 Croatia was a region which encompassed a relatively small area
around Zagreb, and after the creation of the Triune Kingdom of Croatia, Slavonia, and Dalmatia,
Croatia was broadened to a central part of modern Croatia (see J. Fine)

Now we are coming to the very interesting question: why the people on the territory of the
medieval (Porphyrogenitus) Croatia "forgot" their ethnicity and why they called their land
Dalmatia instead of Croatia? How it happened that the "Croatia proper" moved so far to the
north? And how it was possible that the inhabitants of the "dislocated" Croatia became the
speaker of Kajkavian (a dialect of Slovenian), while the inhabitant of Dalmatia (the Croatia
proper according to Porphyrogenitus) remained the speakers of Shtokavian (a Serbian dialect).

The solution of this puzzle may only lie in the fact that Porphyrogenitus never thought about the
Croatians, who would be recreated later (the secon half of the 19th century) on the old historical
date but in the place which was shifted far to the north. Namely, when the Byzantine Emperor
mentioned the migration of the Balkan Slavs, he thought about Serbs who spoke Serbian
(Shtokavian) and about Croatians who spoke Croatian (Kajkavian), which belonged to the same
language dialects as the modern Slovenian (old Carantanian, Chorutanian; cf. Pagus Chrouuat).

I think the Catholics were called Croatians.

Before the WWII the majority of Bosnian Catholics considered themselves either Serbs or their
were undecisive about their ethnic affiliation. The same was in Dalmatia and Slavonia. If you
want to find out more about the creation of the Croats read the book "When Ethnicity Did Not
Matter in the Balkans", by John Fine.

In the beginning Croats were a small Slovenian tribe who spoke a kaikavian language
(Croatian) that was a transitional link between the Serbian and Slovenian language. In the end
of the XIX century, the Catholic Slavs in the territory of today's Croatia, didn't know what name
to choose for themselves (Slavonians, Slovins, Illyrians etc.; as Catholics they didn't want to
identify themselves with the Serbs anymore). Finally, they decided to name their nation and,
consequently, their "ethnicity" in accordance with the name of a small Slavic tribe (Croats),
situated on the border of present Slovenia.

Also, the major division amongst the Slav Balkan peoples seem to be whether they were
Christened from Roma or Nea Roma [Constantinople].

Yes, the Serbs and the former Serbs (Orthodox, Catholics and Muslims; Serbs, Croats and the
new-composed Bosniaks) were fighting the last Balkan war (1991-95).

I remember reading the word "Montenegriner" in a German book of the 19th century.

I may say that I am Montenegriner too, because my ancestors are from Montenegro (even
today, the surname Vukotić is one among the few most important family names in Montenegro);
but the Montenegriner always was the local name of the Serbs living in Montenegro as the
Bosnian was the local name of the Serbs in Bosnia. The name of Montenegro (Serb. Crna
Gora) comes from the medieval name of the mountain range in the north of the country - 'Black
Mountain'. There is also a mountain and an area called Crna Gora (Montenegro; Black
Mountain) in the neighboring "Macedonia" (the mountain range on the border between Serbia
and the FYROM; above Skopje), predominantly inhabited by Serbs

I just read in the German WP that Montenegro was an independent Kingdom from 1878 through

Yes, it's correct; from 1878 (congress of Berlin) Montenegro was an independent Serbian
Kingdom, under the rule of the renowned Serbian royal family of Petrović; Nikola Petrović, the
king of Monengro even wrote a Serbian anthem of Montenegro 'Onamo namo. See below.

There, over there... beyond those hills, Lies there, they say, Milos's grave! There my soul
eternal peace shall gain, When the Serb is no more a slave.

The truth is that those people don't identify as serbs, don't use an identical written language,
don't go to the same church and don't have the same opinion on most historical matters - so
what is it exactly that makes them serbs?

You are talking about the present day situation. Of course, they are not Serbs they are the
former Serbs (as I told earlier).

Yes, you can change your world view, you can change your religious belief, and even your own
ethnicity, if you like, but you cannot change the history and you cannot replace your ancestors.

I am talking about the historical facts and I do not give a damn for what any individual or a group
of people likes or dislikes. AS far as I am concerned you may say you are a Martian; that's your
right and it is a matter of personal freedom.

However, it is inadmissible (I hope you agree) to distort the facts about your forefathers just to
comply with some of your gregarious, material or spiritual motifs and intentions.



Sunday, 16. August 2009, 19:28:44

  My congratulation Mr. Liberman!
  I haven"t read anything more inspiring for a long time (at least as far as etymology is in
question) and I am really sorry I haven"t seen your articles earlier.

  First, let me make a small digression and compare tram to drum (Ger. Trommel) and to
Greek δρόμος (course, race-course, lap, public walk, road, track, way)... and to Serbian drum
(road) in addition. Vasmer mentions the Russian words ударить,                   , драть, раздор (from
O.Slav. оударити "slam, strike, hit, ram"; Serb. udariti, udar, udaram "blow, stroke, strike, beat,
kick, knock, push"; s-udar-anje "clash, shock, collision, crash, impact, smash") and compares it
to Greek δῆρις, -ἡ "battle, contest". Here it seems also to be interesting to mention that Old
Slavic дерѫ, дьрати (d"rati "tear, flay") is a cognate to Sanskrit              (tear, split) and Greek
δέρω (separate by avulsion, skin, flay; hence the Greek noun δέρμα "skin, hide"). All these
words are derived from the same proto-form similar to *xər-bhl-gən.; i.e. from its contracted
basis - *xər-gon.

  English track is probably the source of Serbian traka (band, ribbon) and it is farther
(reversibly) related to Serbian trag (trace, footprint, mark, track) as well as to the Russian word
дорога (road, path). One of the first thing we must have in mind here is that the most of those
*thər- words are derived from an earlier agglutinated form, which sounded similar to *thuer-bəl-
gon (Eng. turbid, turbulence, turbine, curving, trouble , Gr.          "tumult, disorder", Lat. turbidus;
cf. Serb. turoban "mirky, gloomy"). In this case, the semantic shifts are remarkable: for instance,
German trommeln (drum, beat out, pound, batter) is the word from the same "arsenal" as
Serbian grmljavina (thunder, thundering; hence Serb. grom "thunder"; OSlav. громъ; Gr.
χρόμᾰδος "crashing sound",             "to rub, thresh";        μενος "frictional"; Serb. trljanje, trenje
"friction", Russ. трение "friction"; Cz. tření).

  Another word, that should be thoroughly examened, is English group (Ita. gruppo). This word
has been developed following the same logic as the above-mentioned "turbulence". As a matter
of fact, turbulence must be a "descendent" word in comparison to group, because the grouping
is a precondition for a certain kind of "turbulant activities" in the future. Group is closely related
to grab (Ger. graben "dig, grub, burrow", Serb. grabiti "catch, grab", OSlav. грабити, Serb.
grablje "rake") and grave (Ger. Grab, Serb. grob; OSlav. гробъ). Serbian krupno (big) and
ukrupnjenje (making bigger) are the close relatives to Serbian ogroman (large, big, enormous,
giant, huge), and all of these words are derived from the above-mentioned ur-basis — *xər-bhl-
  The protoform *xər-bhl-gən is in fact a "twofold or doubled roundness". It entails that the
primary meaning of such agglutinated word was ring + ball : Gr.               "ring" +        "be
surrounded by"; Serb. krug "circle" + oblo "round"; Ger. Ring + Ball, like in kurbeln "wind",
Kurbel "winder"; Lat. circus + oval or bulla "round swelling", OE hring "circle" + bolla "round
object, cup, bowl"; cf. OE hring-boga "snake" and Icel. hring-laginn "coiled up", both from
hypothetical *hring-bləg(n), i.e. in sense "bent in circle" or "coiled being" (hence probably the
Serbian n. rugoba "a monstrous creature" and adj. rugoban "monstrous, ugly"). Greek
Charybdis (Χάρυβδις) is a word equal to Serbian grdoba "monstrous creature", while Serbian
grdoba is just a variant of the above-mentioned rugoba (from *h/rugoba => *gruhoba =>
grdoba). The name crocodile appears to be obtained in a similar way —*hro(ho)b(d)ile; (cf. Ir.
crogall, Sc. eireallach "a monster", eirbleach "slack-jointed or crippled person, Sc. hirplock
"lame creature, cripple", OSl. хромъ, Serb. hrom, hramati "lame, to limp", Skt.            srāmá
"lame", Eng. horrible "horrifying, ugly"). Alslo there is Gaelic rìbhinn "maid, nymph, serpent,
beautifull female", which might be related to Old Slavic рыба "fish" (Serb. riba; cf. Lat. rubeta
"toad") and German Raupe "caterpillar".

  We can see that Gaelic cruimhean "worms" sounds close to rìbhinn and cruimh "worm", and
Latin vermis (worm) must be obtained from the same language "depot" of "curved creatures"
(Ger. gekrümmt, krumm "bent, curved, curled"; Lith. kirminas, kirmėlė "worm"; Skt.          kṛmin
"worm") as it happened to PSl. *čьrvь (OSl. чрьвь "worm", Russ. червь, Serb. crv). In fact, in
this case, the "curved line" is a basic "motto" in depicting some unusual or even unnatural
characteristic (Serb. kriv-ljenje "bending, distortion", Russ. кривой "distorted", ис-крив-ление
"distortion, deformation, curvature").

  In order to understand how the initial *kərb- "root" (from proto-form *xər-bhl-gən ) changed its
appearance and became *kərp-, *kərv-, *kərm- or *kərf let us compare Latin crimen "a
judgment, charge, accusation, reproach" (Gr.         μα "a decision, judgment") with the South-
Slavic krivica (guilt, culpability; krivina "curve"; OSl. кривъ "crooked", Serb. kriv "crooked,
incorrect, guilty"; Cz.      "crooked, awry, incorrect, improper, deceitful"; Gr. κροιός "having
deformity"; Lith. kreivas "crooked, curved, wry, wrong, false, unfair"). The crucial question here
is whether the Latin word crimen is or not related to Serbian krivnja "culpability".

  Of course, worm (Serb. crv "worm") is not guilty (Serb. kriv "guilty") for his curly or curved
(Serb. kriv "curved, crooked, bent") appearance. Similar can be spoken about the relation
among Slavic crevo (OSl. чрѣво, Serbian crevo; Cz. střevo), which has two meanings: intestine
and hosepipe. In both cases, we have to deal with the curved/hollowed - cablelike objects. The
same "curved" logic is well visible among the Greek words κοιλία "cavity of the body, belly,
abdomen, intestines", κοῖλος "hollow, concave, cavernous" and                        "curved, winding,
twisted, tangled" (cf. Slav. kolo "wheel, circle"; OSl. коло). Even the word for worm followed the
same pattern as it was seen above (Gr.                  "worm"; literary, a twisted, curved creature) in
Slavic and Germanic languages.

   In Old Prussian, intestine was named grābs, phonetically very close to German Grab "grave"
and Slavic grab (hornbeam; genus Carpinus). Is there anything at all that would be able to
connect those three words? On the other hand, OPr. kērmens "body" (Latv. ķermenis "body")
appears to be related to Ger. Körper and Lat. corpus, while OPr. kīrms "worm" (Latv. cērme
"worm") seems to be related to "body" (corpus) in a certain, maybe unusual way? Latin trabs "a
beam of wood, tree-trunk" is a possible cognate to the Serbian word trup "body, trunk, torso,
corpus" (OSl. троупъ, Cz. trup; Russ. труп) and there is another Serbian word (trupac "beam of
wood, tree-trunk") - whose meaning is exactly the same as the meaning of Latin trabs.

  One thing is very interesting here. Namely, the English words tramp, trample (MLG trampen
"walk heavily, stamp") and stamp (OE stempan "stamp") are the cognates of the Serbian verbs
trapati "walk heavily" (n. trapanje; adj. trapav "awkward, clumsy") and stupati "march" (n.
stupanje "marching"). Both of these Serbian words are related to the tree stem (Serb. stablo
"stem, bole, trunk"; Russ. стебель, ствол; Cz.           blо) or tree-trunk (Serb. trupac, truplo "tree-
trunk"). Not casually, Serbian stablo "stem, stalk" is used in naming of the most distal part of
human leg — stopalo "foot" (OSl. стопа; Russ. ступня, стопа; Cz. stopa), because of the
similarity between tree stem and human leg. The almost same relation could be seen in
Germanic: Eng. stem (from *stebh-l-; Ger. Stiel, Stamm, Stengel ), step, Ger. Stufe "step, stair,
grade, degree; cf. Serb. stepen, stupanj "grade, degree", stepenice "steps, stairs".

  Latin ramus "bough, branch, twig" looks as if it has nothing to do with Serbian grana "branch".
Nevertheless, both words are probably derived from the same "root" (* grəbh-gn-), which is, in
fact, one of the variations of the primeval form *xər-bhl-gən ("a curved line"). Perhaps this would
be clearer if we compared Latin ramale -is "brushwood" with the Serbian grmlje "brushwood".
The Greek word for thicket is           ; as we can see, phonetically very close to δρόμος (a
public walk, colonnade, from         ν , aor. inf. of          "to run"). Now it becomes possible that
Lat. ramus is a cognate to above-mentioned trabs "beam of wood". In Russian, the noun хребет
"ridge, edge, spine" (Serb. hrbat "back", greben "ridge") is the antecedent of грань "verge,
edge, margin, boundary" (Serb. granica "boundary, border", grana "twig, branch, limb").

  Semantic shifts in these cases seem to be unexpected, but if we supposed that thousands
and thousands of words were sprang from the same source, then such shifts should not be
seen as startling. For instance, Serbian grumen "lump of soil, clod, clump, turf" (Russ. грум) is
probably the same word as Latin gramen "grass, turf, herb" and these two words may be
distantly related to Serbian trava "grass" (OSl. трава, Pol. trawa) and Latin herba "herb, grass".
In this context, the Slavic appelative d(e)revo (OSl. дрѣво; Russ. дерево; Pol. drzewo) might be
from the same origin as trava "grass". As it is quite obvious, now we are entering the field of
pure guessing.

  Maybe it would be interesting to mention the Czech words křoví, křoviny "bush, shrub, scrub",
travina "grass" and dřevo "wood, timber", i.e. dřevina "woody species". Czech křoví "bush" is
probably a false friend to Serbian korov "weed" (cf. Serb. adj. za-korovljeno = za-travljeno
"weedy"; Russian сорная трава "drossy grass, weed"). The OE syntagm grēne græs might be
an indication that green is related to grass. Swedish gren has the same mening as Serbian
grana (branch; Dan. grene sig "branch out"), and both of these words must be derived from the
same proto-word (*grebhn-; Serb. greben, hrbat, hrid "ridge, cliff"). The OE compound word
hrycg-weg "an elevated piece of ground, ridge-way" (Serb. greben "ridge", hrid-ina "cliff") is
composed of two words: hrycg ( from hring "ring") and weg "road, way"(from IE *bhelg-; Russ.
бежать, убегать "run", Cz. běh, běžet "run"; Latin pello, pellere, pepuli, pulsus "drive out", veho,
vehere "carry, ride, sail"; also Serb. beg, bežati "running away", voziti "drive"; cf. Serb. vozilo -
from *vogi-kolo "drive the wheel" or *begi-kolo "the running wheel, cart, wagon" - and Lat.
vehiculum, vehi-culi).

To be continued


Monday, 4. May 2009, 18:55:06
Is it possible that Lat musca (fly; Serb. muha, mušica; Russ. муха, мшица/mshica,
мошка/moška; Cz. moucha) is somehow related to Lat. mas, maris (man; Serb. muž, muško,
Russ. мужчина/muzhchina, Mac. maž; Cz. muž)? Maybe all this words including macheta
(Serb. mač, Rus. меč; Cz. meč 'sword'; Gr.            'a large knife') and muscle (Serb. mišić,
miška, Pol. mięsień; Russ. мъшьца Gr.        ) are related to thr potential power of movement?

                             (machine for lifting weights and the like; ie. to move something
around) and Serbian maknuti (move, move away; Russ. пере-мещать). For instance, Serbian
word maknuti is appearing in a lot of different forms: micati (move), na-meštati (to place; hence
mesto 'place'; Cz. místo; Russ. место; Pol. miejsce; OSl мѣсто), pre-meštati (move around;
Russ. перемена места), mahati (wave; Russ. махание; Cz. mávat, mávnutí; Pol. machać).
Also we should make clear if English motion is related to the word make and to Serbian
maknuti, micati, motati (all with the meaning 'move around').

One thing is very interesting here: the Serbo-Slavic word muha (fly; OSl моуха) seems to be
derived from the verb maknuti (move) or mahati (wave). In Serbian muha (fly) is also known as
muva (fly), where the sound [h] is replaced with [v]. Similar situation can be seen in English
words motion and move (both probably derived from Lat. moto - are 'move about'). In Serbian,
the reflexive verbs "motati se" and "muvati se" also have the same meaning (to move about,
move around aimlessly) and both could be compared to Latin moto -are and moveo - ere.

If someone is mighty (Serb. moćan; Russ. мощный; Cz. mocný, mohutný) that one is able to
'move' the things around; ie. that one is able to "make" something what the majority of others

Did anyone understand anything of what I said above?
What machete and mač have to do with Greek            (fight, combat)?


Monday, 4. May 2009, 11:27:48
Turkish word haraççı, during the Ottoman Empire, meant "tax paid by non-Moslems". The same
word exist in Persian ( ‫ خراج‬kharaj tax, a tribute, toll). There are the Persian words ‫شری تا‬
sharītā (king) and ‫ شاهوار‬shāhwār (noble, royal) as well as Sharukeen (Sargon) that can be
related to Latin Caesar -aris (Ger. Keiser, Russ. царь). On the other hand, there is the Persian
transitive verb ‫( آرا س تن‬arastan) with the meaning 'to arrange, to put in order, to tidy, decorate',
which is obviously a cognate to English arrange and Serbian urediti (arrange; uređenje 'system,
regime, order') and ukrasiti (to decorate). Comparing Turkish haraç (racketeering, extortion) to
the Serbian word harati (plunder, ravage) we can come to the conclusion that these two words
are closely related. Finally, Serbian word carina (toll, tax) seems to be derived from the noun car
(tsar, emperor) - the tax that must be paid to the emperor. My question is: is it possible that the
words for kings like Lat. rex, Slavic kralj, Russ. tsar, Pers. Sharukeen were all derived from the
same ur-basis or the same agglutinated proto IE form *hor-gon?

I sure didn't have to wait long for you to again try to derive a non-IE word from Serbian. The
English name "Sargon" has nothing whatsoever to do with IE "shah"; it is from Akkadian sharru

Turkish xxx is "closely related" to Serbian yyy. Was it just yeterday that you claimed I was
making up the fact that you frequently assign Serbian etymologies to non-IE words?

Peter Daniels

But you missed one thing: Persian kharaj (tax, a tribute, toll). Turkish, if you didn't know,
borrowed a great number of words from Persian. In addition, Persian kharaj is most probably
related to Serbian krađa (theft, stealing; Russ. кража, украденные вещи; Pol. kradzież, Cz.
krádež; OCSl кражда)
We still have one IE language in that area - Kurdish. Encyclopedia Britannica supposed that
Sargon (Sharukeen) was the "father" of the Russian word tsar. There are other theories too, but
none of them can be taken as definitive and unquestionable.

What exactly is it that you think makes "arrange" an "obvious" cognate of "arastan",assuming
that it is one at all? Do you have any idea where "arrange" came from?

Harlan Messinger
First, Serb. u-rediti (arrange; Cz. za-řídit; po-řádat; Russ. приводить в по-рядок; also Serb.
noun uređenje 'system, regime'; Cz. z- řízení 'regime') is a clear cognate to English arrange and
organize. Also, English raw is a cognate to Serbian red (raw, l
                                                         -                -
             -                      -                                                                ).
Greek            (best, most useful, noblest) is a cognat to Serb. koristan (useful; cf. gr.
useful, beneficial) as well as Serb. krasan 'fine, beautiful, gorgeous' (Russ. пре-красный, Cz.
krásný); and ukrasiti 'decorate' (Russ. украшать; Cz. při-krášlit is related to both Pers. arastan
and Gr.          . Persian 'circle' is ‫( جرگ ه‬jarga) or ‫( جرگ ه‬jargeh).

If the word for "king" is from semitic languages (weren't they organized into what we would call
kingdoms today way before IE people) then it is only an assumption that PIE had a word for
king. Perhaps when the semitic "king" came to the IE world, IE dialects we can recognize now
were already in existence.

No, it cannot be from Semitic, but it is possible that Semitic and IE used the same initial word to
describe a circle or a round object [cf. Aram. qrqws (circle, ring); Arab. daira (circle), Akk. sâru
(rotate, turn, to circle), sûrtu (circle)]. It could be interesting to mention that Turks borrowed
Arabic daira (circle) and according to that word they named a musical instrument - tambourine
(daire; because of its round shape; lit. circle), which later was spread across the North Africa
(Arab. bendeir), Europe (Serb. daire, Spanish pandero - via Arabic) and Asia (Azerb. doire,
Pers. daire).

Steingass in his persian dictionary classsifies xara:j as arabic. I'll look up some other sources to
get a more definite answer.

Yusuf B Gursey

Yes, I know; it is a wide spread opinion. Nevertheless, there is a Sanskrit word kara (royal
revenue , toll , tax , tribute) and this word is recorded in Mahâbhârata; so it is hardly possible
that it was borrowed from Arabic a few hundreds years B. C. Also, Sanskrit hara means 'taking
away , carrying off , removing , destroying; destroyer' and it matches to Serbian harati 'destroy'.

And the Akkadian sharru 'king' is derived from Magdalenian ShA RAG, ruler ShA ruler RAG.
RAG originally meant the line of head and back of an animal in cave art, the first line drawn by
the Paleolithic artists according to Leroi Gourhan, strongly evocative of the whole animal. Greek
rakhos 'back, mountain ridge', German Rücken 'back' Bergrücken 'mountain ridge' ragen 'to
loom, tower', German recht 'right' and Recht 'law', English right, Latin rex 'king' regina 'queen',
Sanskrit raj 'king' - kings represent what is right, their word is the law, they tower above the
society and appear with a straight back in public, their back enforced and prolonged by a throne,
their stature heightened by a crown.

Franz Gnaedinger

And the things are right if they are standing in a row (Ger. Reihe; Serb. red). Of course, Ger.
Rücken is derived from the above mentioned *hor-gon (hring, circle) and its meaning is the
same as Serbian grba/ grbina/hrbat (hump, back; Russ. хребет; Cz. hřbet; related to Lat. curvo
and cervix 'back of the neck'; cf. Serb. krivo 'curved, not right'). In fact, you can see that Rücken
came from OE hrycg, or more precise, from OHG hrukki, which sounded very similar (almost the
same) to Slavic krug 'circle'. There is a Serbian syntagm 'nositi krkače', with the meaning "to
carry something/someone on the back", and it shows that Serb. krkača (back) is equal to
German Rücken.
I forgot to say that Greek ῥᾰχις (spine) is also derived from the "circle" (Gr.       , Lat. circus).

A New Young (Noble-Nibelung) King

Wednesday, 21. January 2009, 22:55:27

The PGmc. *k of these forms is not surprising, because that is the expected outcome of PIE *ǵ
(or velar *g, for that matter); and we expect *r to survive without change in Germanic. But the
vowel of the root doesn’t fit; inherited *ē should have remained *ē in PGmc. and in Gothic,
becoming *ā in all the other daughters (with various further developments, especially in OE).

Don Ringe

PDF version (132 kb)
When Proto-Germanic *rik- is in question, I would say that Ringe is making a mistake by
observing only words related to king in this case. Namely, the PIE root *h3reg- (or Hor-Gon
basis in my HSF) gives an enormous number of derivatives in all IE languages. For instance,
Gothic        (Recht) is a “counterpart” word with Celtic * rektu- (Old Irish recht, Welsh rhaith)
and German Reich/reich is clearly related to Recht (right) and Richtung (direction) because that
meanings were shifted from Reihe (raw) and Ordnung (order; this may be a borrowing from
Latin ordo -inis line, raw, order, but not ultimately). All these words must be carefully examined
before any final conclusion is reached. Compare Serbian words red (row, line; Russ. ряд; Cz.
řada, řádek; Pol. rząd), uređenje (system, arrangement; Cz. po-řádek; Russ. по-рядок; po-
rządek), uredno (orderly), na-ređenje, na-rediti (order; Cz. na-řídit); do they not sound like the
Latin loan-words? But they are not from Latin, they are clearly inherited Slavic words. If a Serb
says “sve je u redu” it means “it’s all right” (Ger. alles in Ordnung). When something is properly
arranged (Serb. uređeno) it must be right (Serb. u redu, uredno). Sometimes things are more
simply “arranged” than anyone would have ever supposed. For instance, who would say that
English empire (from Latin imperito -are) is an analogous word to Slavic poredak (system; from
po-ređati to line up).

As I said before, I am convinced that wovels have no big/significant importance in studying the
history of words. Wovels seem to be just necessary “tools” to make words shift/pass from one
meaning to another (Serb. uraditi work, urediti arrange, uriktati put in order; Ger. Reihe row,
Recht right, Richting direction). Who would suppose that Greek παράδεισος (paradise, heaven)
is also related to Slavic poredak (system) and Latin im-perito? Serbian raj (paradise; Russ. рай,
раек; Cz. raj; OSl. раи) is nothing else but an “arrayed area” (Serb. uređen kraj).

                     (OIr. bé, Jasanoff 1989) >→ PGmc. *kwēniz ‘wife’ > Goth. qens, ON kván,
OS quān, OE cwēn;

Don Ringe

There is a well-established “scientific” belief that Slavic knez (prince; OSlav. кънѩѕь) is a
Germanic loanword (Vasmer p. 2,266.). The following analysis is showing that such an
assertion is completely unsubstantiated and essentially wrong. In addition, this could possible
be an indirect proof that Don Ringe’s assumption about Celtic loan-words in Germanic couldn’t
be more reliable than the above-mentioned Vasmer’s statement about *kuninggaz => knez

Here, I suppose, it would be interesting to mention the Serbian words knez (count, lord, prince,
duke; Russ. князь; Cz. kníže) and kneginja (princess; Russ. княгиня, княжна; Ger. Königin;
Pol. księżniczka; Cz. kněžna). Now let us compare Slavic words for book (Serb. knjiga book,
knjižica booklet; Pol. książka, książeczka book, booklet; Russ. книжечка booklet; Cz. kniha,
knížka) with the above mentioned Slavic words for prince and princess. What can we see? Is
there anything here beside the pure phonetic resemblance and analogous morphology? What is
that that Serbian kneževina (principality; Pol. księstwo; Russ. княжество; Cz. knížectví) may
have in common with the Serbian word književnost (literature)? Are these two words anything
more than lookalikes? On the other hand, in what mutual relations are the English words, count,
know, and king? Why count is at the same time the act of counting and a noble man? Might it
not be related to English king (Ger. König) and the verb know (Ger. kennen)? What about
possible kinship among the Serbo-Slavic words znanje (knowledge), nauka (science), knez
(prince) and knjiga (book), on one side, and the above mentioned Germanic words on the
other? Also, there seems to be a clear parallel to English words duke (from Lat. dux leader;
ducere lead) and education (Lat. ex-ducere lead out)? Now we can suppose that king was not
only the ruler and the one who oppressed his people (cf. Ger. Knecht servant; Serb. ugnjeten
oppressed; kmet servant; from knet; ultimately from goniti chase, drive, prosecute), but he also
was the leader, the one who teaches, educates, counts… Nevertheless, is it possible that
English teacher (again Latin ducere, dicere, dictio) is related to Serbian douka (teach), dokaz
(evidence, token, testimony), dokučiti (to find out, see through), tečaj (cours; from teknuti, teći
flow) and učiti (learn, teach). Of course, all these words go back to the ur-form *(h)obli-gn or to
the PIE root *bhleugh- (hence Serb. oblinuti/obliti suffuse; from ob-h-liti, h-linuti, s-linuti, d-linuti,
and obučiti teach, educate). As we can see, we need here an in-depth phonetic expertise in
order to be able to describe all the phonetic mutations that occurred in these examples.

For instance, Serbian odlučiti (decide; odluka decision) is the “older” form of the Serbian verb
tumačiti (comment, inerpret; Ger. dolmetschen interpret) and is related to English talk and
Russian толковать (interpret). Let us now concentrate on the PIE root for talk and tale - *del-
(Pokorny 1. del- 193). Can we not say that English teach belongs to the same group of words as
tale and talk? No we cannot because teach is derived from the PIE root *deig-! Yeah, but why
talken (talk) wouldn’t be related to token and Serbian dokaz (Cz. důkaz token, evidence,
argument; Russ. доказательство evidence, доказывать to assert) and odluka (issue, evidence,
judgment, verdict, decision; odlučiti (decide, determine). Why wouldn’t Latin decisio -onis
(decision) be related to Slavic dokaz (evidence, proof) and what is the history of the Latin word
documentum (evidence). Greek δοκῐμάζω (approve, test, assay) appeared to be the same word
as Latin documentum. Serbian dokazivanje (proving) is the same word as doznavanje or
doznati (get knowledge; from dognavati, dognati; i.e. cognate (!) to Lat. cognitio!). Also, if we
compare English knowledge and the Serbian adjective znalački (knowingly) we will see that
these two words are structured in the same way.

Above analysis should (and must) go much deeper and for that hundreds of pages wouldn’t be
enough, but in this specific case I tried just to make some outline “inspection” of the words that
potentially could be related to king and queen. Next word that can capture our attention is the
word noble! Surprisingly, here we may mention the Egyptian god Kneph (also known as
Chnoubis, Chnoumis, Chnouphis, Nebo, Naba, Nechi, Necho), who appears to be related not
only to our king/knez but also to wisdom; i.e. knowledge and znanje (by Eusebius he is
identified with the Logos; Jamblichus identifies him with Brahma since he says of him that “this
god is intellect itself”). How it happen that Ethiopian negus (king) is present in Serbian language
today, in the name of a town Njeguši (best known as birth place of Serbian’s royal dynasty of
Petrović in Montenegro. Actually, it seems that Serbian Njegoš/Njegoš is the same word as
English king, German König or Serbian knez/knjaz. The other name that could be helpful in this
case is Serbian name Nemanja, which could go back to Nebo (sky; from nasalized NeMbagna,
something close Nabunaid, king of Babylon), which also could be related to Noah (New Man,
Serb. Novak; from novo new; Neu Man). This shows too that the Germans might not have been
called Nemci in Slavic in accordance with the Slavic word for mute (nem), but in accordance
with the word know (Serb. znati Gr. γνωσις, γνομε knowledge, skillfulness).

If queen is related to Greek γῠ
               (hunt, chase; Serb. goniti chase, gonič
(huntsman) sounds almost the same as PGerm. *kuninggaz (OE cyning; Goth. kuniggs). Slavic
knez (OSlav. кънѩѕь) is also the above mentioned gonič (hunter). Originally, knez is hunter
(Serb. ženik bridegroom) who chase/hunts the woman (Serb. žena, ženka). In Russian, knjaz’
(князь) has the additional meaning (possible related to English knave) - bridegroom (Russ.
жених; Serb. ženik, mlado-ženja). Now we can see that Slavic knez may be compared to
Serbian neženja (bachelor, neženjen unmarried), and it shows that neženja comes from earlier
*gnegenja or *gnaganja. What really happened here? Could it be possible that English young
(OE geong) is related to king and then to Slavic neženja (bachelor, unmarried young man).

Now we are going to prove something what at first sight looks completely impossible. Namely,
comparing the Latin word iuvenis (young) with German jung and Russian юный (young) we
might have logically supposed that these words are closely related; but the question is how? In
our everyday speech the word young can be often replaced with new (Latin novus fresh, joung,
new; Serb. nov; Russ. новый;Cz. nový; Serb. pri-nova a newborn child). Is it not amaizing?
There must be something in it: if Latin novus is derived from novellus (cf. Serb. novajlija a new
one, fresh) then juvenis must have previously sounded as *juvelnis (*jubelgnih; from
*g(n)ubelgnih). Hindi navayuvā or naujavāna (youngster; literally “new young”) is a compound
word of nāva (new, young) + javāna or yuvā (young; cf. Hind. śāvaka young, jīvana live; Serb.
živahan quick, jovial, lively). One of the possible evidences that proposed ur-form *g(n)ubelgnih
is correct (or close to correct) is the Serbian noun ob-navljanje (re-newing) and English novelty:
i.e. the above mentioned Latin novellus (young, fresh, new). And the first thing we have to do
when we meet a novelty (or a new thing) is… what? Yes, you are right, we must name it! In
many IE languages the word for name is derived from the PIE root PIE *nomn-. English adverb
namely is Serbian naime (namely). Serbian naimeno-vati (to give a name, assign, denominate)
is analogous to English naming. Naturally, there is nothing unusual in it, but if we say that
English name is at the same time related to the Serbian verb zvati/zivkati/zovnuti (call, name) it
must be totally unexpected. This Serbian word (zvati call) and its numerous forms as zovnuti,
zov, zivkati, zvuk (sound) etc., shows in the best way that vowels are of very little importance for
the understanding of history of any specific word.

Above mentioned Serbian naimenovati (to name) and naime (namely) are prefixed forms of the
noun ime (name; Russ. имя; Cz. jméno; Pol. imię; Slv. meno; OSl. имѩ), na-ime (”on name”). It
means that Serbo-Slavic ime lost its “laryngeal”, which from its own side was born from the gn
cluster (similar as in Latin nobilis, from gnobilis “knowable”) and sounded likewise Greek γνώμη;
i.e. PSlav. *gnime => *hime => jime => ime (name). Now it becomes clear that Greek γνώμη
(the faculty of knowledge, opinion) and Latin gnobilis (noble, knowable; knowledgeable) are
cognates and it clearly indicates that “gnome” was born from “gnobe”, probably through the
nasalization (gnoMb- => gnom-). Slavic synonym for ime (name) is naziv (appellation, name,
term, title; Pol. nazwa, Russ. название, Czech název;OSl. зъвати, зовѫ call; Serb. zvati call;
Skt.     -          call, Avest. zavaiti; Hind. āhvana call; Serb. zvanje calling), and that word’s -
ziv morpheme (from na-ziv name), as well as its unprefixed forms (zov call, zvanje calling,
vocation and zvuk sound) were derived from the same above-mentioned ur-basis *g(n)ubelgnih,
just like all the words from different IE languages we were considered here.

Roman preanomen Gnaeus or Cnaeus sounds like Serbian Knez. Is it just a chance
resemblance or is it something more than that? Gnaeus is believed to be derived from Etruscan
Cneve (also Cnaive), Oscan and Old Latin Gnaivos, wich preserved the sound /v/ that is
replaced in Roman Gnaeus with /u/. Does it not suggest that Slavic/Serbian knez is subjected to
the similar process (knez from knevs)? In an attempt to find solution to this “mystery” we started
from the ancient Egyptian “intellectual” god Kneph (Logos) or Babylonian Nabu/Nebo (god of
wisdom and writing; Roman Neptun?) and then we “visited” the Ethiopian sovereign Negus
(probably from Nevgus, with the loss of the initial k/g; Knevgus => Negus). Also we mentioned
the Babylonian king Nabunaid whose name is present even today in Serbian personal name
Nemanja (from G/NeMb(l)agna; related to nebo heaven; Goebel; Gnabel, Nabel, Nobel). Finally,
why wouldn’t we go to the North of Europe and visit the Danish prince Hnæf whose name
reminds us of the Egyptian god Kneph. Hnæf was the prince of the Germanic people of
Nibelungs (ON Niflung; Niblung; Hniflung-r). If we now compare the supposed proto-word for
“king” - *g(n)ubelgnih we will see that all the above mentioned words perfectly fit into such an
assumed basis. Serbian konjanik (cavalier, horseman) sounds almost the same as Dutch
koning or Swedish konung (king) and it happened because konjanik also is derived from
*g(n)ubelgnih basis (Gon-Bel-Gon in HSF), from kopljanik (lancer), in accordance with Latin
caballus and Slavic *komen (konj horse; from koMbljen; cf. Serbo-Slavic kobila mare; ORuss.
комонь). The things are appearing to be clear here, you cannot be a noble man (GNibelung)
without the lancer (Serb. koplje) and horse and it shows that horse was named in accordance to
his horseman (cavalier; k/noble, kopljanik; caballus, kobila) and not vice versa. Finally,
knowledge belongs to elite or g/nobility.

As for queen, she might have been derived from the word king; i.e. from an earlier form which
sounded like kneva (metathesis kvena; kneva => kvena => queen).
Charlemagne vs. Kraljevina

Monday, 19. January 2009, 16:52:19

“In an earlier posting I raised the question whether sound change ever helps us distinguish
between inherited and borrowed words in historically interesting cases. There are at least a few
such cases; here is one I happen to know about”.

Don Ringe

PDF (152 kb)

Unlike Don Ringe I prefer using semantics as a primary scientific discipline in an effort to
determine the history of a specific word. Phonetics and other linguistic sub-fields could be used
here mainly as the auxiliary means. Simply, there are to many irregular sound changes for to be
able to establish strict laws and rules, by which it could be applied in an “exact” and “lucrative”
way. I think that modern linguistics, driven by a wish to make itself look more “exact”, resorted to
those scientific processes, which are more “closer” to other natural sciences, physics, chemistry
or even mathematics.

Furthermore, in order to make the “phonetic laws” seriosly appliable we cannot use them by
scratching the mere surface or those sound changes that are “clearly” visible; we must go
deeper into the mere core of such a “phonetic” processes. For instance, according to the
Grimm’s law the PIE aspirated voiced stop bh regularly yields unaspirated voiced stop b in
Germanic. Once I argued that Serbian pekar (baker) and pekara (bakery) are the same words,
from the same origin, basis or root, whatever… as English baker and bakery. For god’s sake,
even an uneducated shepherd would be able to solve this “riddle”! But, it cotradicts the phonetic
laws/rules! What rules? English bake comes from PIE *bHeh1- while Serbian peći, pekao (bake)
is from *pekW-! OK, but what are we then going to do with the OHG packan, pachan and
peccho instaed of MHG bachen and Ger. backen?

I also do not believe that there were a large number of borrowed words in any language in the
distant past. Also I think that differences among the different IE groups of languages appeared
more as a result of a long-term separation (for many tens or hundreds of years), caused by
naturally occurring disasters. My humble opinion is that IE nomadic tribes initially departed
each-other because of overpopulation or because of drought, flood, cold etc. They might have
been so ruthlessly dispersed across the immense space that they hadn’t been able to find/meet
their relatives afterwards. At that time (many thousands years ago) humans probably were
rare creatures on the planet Earth - it is not impossible that they couldn’t number more than a
few tens of thousands.

I suppose those people had a vocabulary of just a dozen of words before separation. Later on,
any of this divided groups continued to develop their vocabulary independently and the words
were generated with an increasing speed. Of course, it is hard to imagine such a rapid
language changes in this days when language is “fully” developed, but in those times when the
whole vocabulary numbered just a few “key-words” the multiplication of words might have
occurred with a tremendous velocity.

When the separated groups met again, their language had increased from a dozen of words to
thousands and they were totally unable to understand each other…and being different
(unintelligible) speakers made them deadly enemies. The further history is well known until this
modern days. People started the wars, killing and plundering. Similar “confinements” as the
“primal” one occurred many times through the history, but none of the later “excommunications”
(divisions and subdivisions) has brought such a crucial language changes and divergences as it
happened during the “first alienation”.

Naturally, as well as more the contacts among different IE languages became more frequent the
greater number of loanwords entered the respective language. Nevertheless, I think that any
native speaker will recognize, unmistakably, the “intruders” into his tongue. Even when the
creole or a sort of “mixed” languages similar to English are in question, I think that any native
speaker of such a language, regardless of his educational background, would be fairly capable
to “detect” the “matching pairs”.

Of course, there will always be loanwords whose origin is hardly detectable or undetectable at
all. Four major IE groups of languages in Europe (Germanic, Romance, Greek and Slavic) are
clearly bounded. The vowel changes, I agree, can in certain cases be of a serious significance
in our efforts to reveal some of the secrets of language evolution; but, generally taken, the vowel
mutations were mainly used as the “carriers” of the “notion-distiction”.
Now, I would pay more attention to the certain semantic values of the words that had been
mentioned in a very stimulating Ringe’s article. Latin rex, regis takes the central point of the PIE
root *reg-. Could we grasp anything right if we started from the word that describes the “most
powerful” man of a country - the king! What the basic meaning of the root *reg- might be?
Ruler? Should we start analyzing this root by referring to king or to the king’s realm (kingdom)?
The German noun Reich (empire)and adjective reich (rich) are phonetically close to Latin rex
(king), while German Reichtum (wealth, richness)is build in a similar way as Latin regnum
(kingdom, realm).

Are we going to find anything “unusual” in relation among the Latin words rex regis (king) grex
gregis (herd, flock), gresus (step, course) and gregalis (pl. companions, associates,
accomplices)? What is the smallest common denominator for all these words? Does it mean
that rex (king) also started with the velar in initial place? Are there valid cognates to these Latin
words in Slavic, Greek and Germanic?

What is the “basic” meaning of realm, region, regional? Could it be related to Latin area and
harena; or Greek χορεῖον (dancing place), χορός (dance), Serbian oro (dance)? Oro or χορός
are a kind of dance where people are arranged
            (ring); cf. Serb. okrug area, krug
                  or more precisely (and surprisingly) to OE hring (ring)?! Why harena also has
the “additional” meaning sand? Maybe, because the arena structure (a playing field; compare
the “boxing ring” and “arena”) was placed on the sandy sea-shore or sprinkled by send? How
can Sabine fasena (sand) be related to Latin harena (sand; hasena => harena)?

Let us agree that s/r rhotacism is possible in this case, although it is difficult to understand how
aurum (gold) can be related to Sabine ausum, especial                                        in
Greek (cf. Lat. h/aureus golden and Gr. chrusos gold). One special example is Lat. nase vs.
nares (nose); here we can follow the sound changes via nostrils (OE nosðyrl, ODE says:
                     r(e)l hole (rel. to þurh THROUGH”). Nares could be a reduced form of nostril
(metatheses nasril => narles => nares). In Serbian, nostril is nozdrva (Cz. nozdra; Russ.
ноздря; OSl ноздри), and this word is related to Serbian surla (proboscis).

From this moment on, the “real science” comes to the “scene”. The Serbian augmentative of the
noun nos (nose) is nosurda, also known as no-surlina, no-surlda. Now it becomes clear that the
above-mentioned ODE assumption, that nostril is a compound word of nose + thyrel, cannot be
taken as completely true. English through is related to Serbian kroz (through; Russ. через, Cz.
skrze) and the verbs pro-turati, pro-turi; from tur(bl)anje, similar to German Kurbel (crank; a
hand tool consisting of a rotating shaft with parallel handle), Latin h/orbita (wheel), orbis (rotate),
Serb. obrtati/vrtate/uvrtati (rotate, turn), okretati (turn, rotate), pro-kružiti (proći kroz “push
through”). English twirl corresponds to Serbian verb svrdlati (rotate, make a hole, drill), n. svrdlo
(borer, gimlet, auger). Serbian pro-svirati (push through), svirati (blow, beep, flute), svirala (fife,

What a mess! Is Serbian svirati/svirala the same word as English whirl (cf. ON hvirfla spin)? Are
Serbian words zvuk (sound), zvoniti (chime, ring), zvono (bell), zujati/hujati (hum) related to
svirala (fife) and svirati (blow, play). May Serbian svirati (blow, play) be a metathesis of survati
(fall down rapidly, come as an avalanche). Is German spielen (play) related to schwellen
                                         (sound) might be the word from the same “source” as
Serbian zvono (bell) and zvoniti (ring, resound)? Does it mean that sound also belongs to that
group of words (Serb. zvoniti/zvuk = Eng. sound; both from Latin sonus; cf. Latv. zunds,
zondēt)? Latin echo is probably related to Serbian jeka (echo) and zuka (hum) and Greek ηχώ,
                                                                                         (a hearing, the
sound heard ).

In order to understand what has happened to the Serbian words zvoniti, zujati, zukati, zvrčati,
zvučati, zvrka, svirka, zuka, zvuk, cvrčati, jeka, huka, cikati, kikot etc., all with the meanings
’sound’, ‘echo’, ‘roar’, ‘hum’, we must try to find the common ur-form (the smallest common
denominator!) from which all these words probably originate. Judging according the Serbian
noun svurala (fife, flute), the verb svirati must have once sounded as svirlati and it comes very
close to the another existing Serbian verb - urlati (howl, roar, yowl, yell; n. urlanje roaring,
howling). It seems that our urlanje could be returned to surlanje, i.e. to the above mentioned
Serbian word surla (proboscis; Serb. adj. surljav untamed, surov wild, ferocious, sirov raw).
Taking as a pattern the Serbian noun slon (elephant) and comparing it with surla (proboscis), it
seems that one new phonetic law may be introduced here concerning the elision/ommision of
the sound /r/. Obviously, slon (elephant) was erstwhile called surlan or sur-blan and that it was
contracted to the todays known word slon (sur-blan => surlan => slon). An additonal eveidence
that Serbo-Slavic slon (elephant) originated from the protoform *sur-bla-gn- could be found in
Baltic languages (Lith. straublys proboscis, dramblys elephant; Latv. zilonis elephant).
Let us go back to Latin rex. Coud that Latin word be the cognate with the Slavic word
kralj/karolj                                       ь)? Is Slavic kralj really a Germanic loanword?
What is the meaning of Charlemagne? Freeman? Could we say that Charlemagne is the same
word as German? Probably. Then the central meaning of the name German seems to be
“freeman”. Germany is a “land of freedom”. Kingdom is called kraljevina or carevina in Serbian
(Russ. королевство, царство; Cz. království, císařství), and Slavic kraljevina/kraljevstvo is
related to kraj (area, countryside, district), similar to Latin region. We can also see that Latin
regulus (petty king; from hregulus) is derived from the same source as the Germanic name
Charlemagne. In fact, Serbian kraljevina is krugljevina (Serb. okruglo round, krug circle, okrug
district, okrilje shelter, tutorship; hence krilo wing; Serb. sint. dobiti krila lit. get the wings “obtain
the freedom”). There are still a lot of questions to be answered: is Serbian carevina (empire)
the same, but differently pronounced word as kraljevina (kingdom)? And really, car(glj)evina
might be a “palatalized” kraljevina; k(a)raljevina = c(a)raljevina (cf. Serb. surnames Karan and
                  νος king).

Here we are entering the most interesting part of our “story”. Namely. the Slavic word sloboda
(freedom; ORuss. слобода; Cz. svoboda) and Latin libertas appeared to be derived from the
same agglutinated ur-form that sounded the same as the above-mentioned basis for the word
slon (elephant) - *sur-bla-gn-. Greek ελευθερία is in fact a transposed liberta- (liberti => lebeter
=> elevter-) and Slavic sloboda comes also through metathesis from *suo-bol-da, after the
elision of the sound /r/; i.e. suo(r)-bol-da (dissimilation like in Eng. gove(r)nment)=> suo-bol-da
=> svobolda => sloboda/svoboda (liberty, freedom). Serbian adv. slobodar-ski (unbound, freely),
not by chance, sounds close to Greek elevteria and Latin libertas. This analysis also shows that
the name of Slavs (Sloveni; OSl словѣне; Gr. Σθλαβηνοί) is derived from the earlier Serb(l)ian
(Serbli; OSerb срьблинь, serblin => srbin) name, which originates from the above mentioned
basis - *sur-bla-gn. It means that Slavic/Serbian name has the same meaning as the name of
Germans (liberty, freedom; freeman; German from Charlemagne, from Her-ble-gn; Ger-Mbla-gn
=> GerMban => German).

Once again, the crucial question in diachronic linguistics should probably be the one that tackles
and defines (or at least tries to define) the proto-syllables and the process of “primal
agglutination”. Russian linguist Yuri Knorosov suggested that it would be possible to build up a
pretty rich vocabulary from a small number of proto-syllables. It means that we won’t be able to
make any significant progress in the field of historical linguistics until we have found that
“mysterious” self-generating speech “progenitors”. How many irregular sound changes are there
on the turf of just one single language? Their number is certainly so big that we will need a few
millenniums to “catch” them all. Who can explain why the name for star begins with different
initial sounds in Slavic languages (Serb. zvezda; Cz. hvězda; Pol. gwiazda; Russ. звезда; OSl.
ѕвѣзда). One of the closest relatives to zvezda are the Serbo-Slavic verbs zviznuti and zviždati
(hit, swish, whistle; a clear association to a strong hit to the head followed by the “stars’
appearance” and “whistling” inside the commoted head; Cz. hvízdat; Pol. gwizdać, but also
świstać; ChSl. звиздати). The modern etymology books are telling us that OE hwistlian (whistle;
ON hvīsla) comes from PGmc. *khwis-, “of imitative origin”, although it seems absolutely
impossible not to see the striking resemblance between Czech hvizdal (whistled) and English

What to say about Serbian words sekira (ax), siguran (safe, secure) and the verbs zagraditi, (to
brace, to fence). osigurati (secure, insure)? We know that sure, assure is a reduced form of the
word secure and English secure comes from Latin securus, allegedly se + cura (care; “without
care”; from sine cura), but as anyone can see it is rather unusual. The Serbian language have
the verb sikirati/sekirati se (worry, be scared), which is the antonym to the verb sigurati,
osigurati se (secure, to insure); in fact, Serbian sekirati/sikirati se means “to be insecure”; if
someone works as a security guard he must be worried. May it not be logical that English scare
is a corresponding word to Serbian sikirati/sekirati (worry), especially if we consider Old Norse
skirra? The English word scar will take care to “ensure” that above correspondences are not a
haphazard. Namely, English scar is probably related to Latin securis (axe, hatchet), because
securis (Serb. sekira) is the implement that makes the scars on the surface of wood/trees. Scar
(OFr. escare) is cognate with the Serbian verb išarati (to fret, to line; from iskarati; ultimately
from iskružiti; Slavic krug/kruh circle; i.e. to tear out from a whole or circle; Serb. iz kruga “out of
the circle”).

If Latin securus (fearless, safe, secure) really comes from sine cure than we can hardly explain
the origin of Serbian osigurati (secure). Is that word a Latin loanword or just a false cognate?
Serbian osigurati looks as it was constituted from the Slavic prefix sa-. za-, iz- and the verb
gurati (to push, jostle, boost). Similar logic can be used in case of Latin secretus (from
secerno)and the Serbian verb sakriti (hide;again with very close meaning to Latin secret). When
these Serbian words are in question, there was used the same logic we mentioned earlier, while
explaining the word išarati (fret, scar), because iz-gurati also has the general idea of
“separation” or “tearing something out from the whole or circle (Serb. krug)”. Greek                (Latin
cerno) is corresponding to Serbian granica (Ger. Grenze), where from there are Serbian ograda
(fence), ograditi (separate), zagraditi (to enclose), graditi (build; cognate to create?), ograničiti
(confine, localize, delimitate), raz-graničiti (discern, judge, mark off). Following such a way of
thinking, it looks completely clear that Serbian sakriti (hide) is related to sigurati, osigurati
(secure); i.e. that both of these words are clearly related to verb zagraditi (enclose, put the
borders, separate), zagrada (brace, bracket).

Above mentioned granica (Grenze) is nothing else but a “circle” that someone draws around
himself or around his propertiy/possession. In fact, granica is kružnica (the outer part of a circle;
from krug, granica <= krugnica => kružnica). There is no border (Serb. granica border) that is not
arranged (Serb. uređena); if opposite, it cannot be a border. The word ‘arrange’ comes from
hring (ring) in the same way as Serbian uređeno is related to krug (circle). Latin cognate to
these words is ordino -are (to put in order, arrange), analogous to Serbian urediti (arrange; adj.
uredno, uređeno in order). Don Ringe (Rounded?           ) must realize that circle is a geometrical
figure, a perfection that man is trying to achieve. It is the reason why the lion’s share of IE
vocabulary goes back to the notion of circle. Slavic vocabulary has no rex but there is kralj who
is the central “point” of kingdom (kraljevstvo, kraj, okrug). There is uređenje (system) instaed of
regnum, kraljevski instead of royal (regalis), urednik/reditelj instead of régisseur, red instad of
order (ordo), rad instead of work, radnik instead of           , vršenje/verga (Slav. *vrg-) instaed of
work (Werke). Finally, who is able to grasp that Slavic država is a state of “comrades” (Serb.
drug friend) and that the names German and Serbljin also have “friendly”/”brotherly” rounded
connotations, that one has a chance of entering into the biggest miracle of this world - human

Shackled Cattle

Friday, 16. January 2009, 10:08:59

But let us imagine that the original meaning was less definite, perhaps “large quadruped” or the
like (the meaning “donkey” of the Armenian reflex is worthy of notice in this context).
Or might it be more definite? For instance, why not something like ‘hoof’? Is hoof related to
coffin? An unusual question, isn’t it? How this sounds to you, crazy, foolish, silly… naive?

But, let us first see what the earliest history of hoof might be? According to Pokorny that words
comes from the PIE root *kāpho-/            -. Is the German word Huf (hoof) related to Skr. śapha-
(hoof, claw) and Serbian šapa (paw; Russ. лапа; Cz. tlapa ‘paw’)? Vasmer says (following the
Kluge’s earlier conclusion: …dass an russ. ‘kopát’ angeschlossen werden kann) that Slavic
kopito (hoof) comes from the verb kopati (dig, shovel). Can it be accepted as an unshakable
Is Slavic kopati related to German klopfen (to beat, nock, clap; Serb. klepati and lupati ‘beat’,
’strike’,‘clap’, ‘pound’, ‘throb’)?

Let us try to go a step further. What if English coin (OFr coigne, Lat. cuneus ‘wedge’) is related
to Slavic kovati (to coin, hammer, forge; Russ. ковать,
                       (to hammer, beat, strike) also belongs to the same sort of IE words.

Is the Serbian verb čupati (pluck, tear out, pull out) in any relation with English chop? What
Serbian čupav (tufted) and čuperak/ćuba (tuft) have to do with the above-mentioned words? Of
course, Serbian čupav tufted) is not directly related to the Serbian verb čupati (pluck), but both
words are derived from the same root, or from the same basis.

Could we grasp that Serbian stopalo (sole; Russ. ступня) and taban (sole) are related to šapa
(paw; Cz. tlapa, Russ. lapa) and dlan (Pol. dłoń; Russ.ладонь*; OSl длань)?

                  !) and solum (bottom, ground, soil), on one side, and the “connection” among
Serbo-Slavic taban (sole),dlan (palm, flat of the hand), šapa (paw; from šlapa/tlapa), dolina
(valley, dingle, dale) and zemlja (earth, soil) on the other?

Might the Greek word         ος (horse. mare) be derived from the above mentioned κόπτω or
κοπτός (pounded, forged; κόπτε δὲ δεσμούς‘to forge fetters’)? Is horseshoe a kind of fetter?
Compare Slavic okov (fetter) and podkov (horseshoe; pod-okov, literally ‘under-fetter’; Serb.
pot-kovica, from pod okov; Cz. pod-kova ‘horsehoe’, kovat ‘forge’, koval ‘forged’; Russ.ковать
‘hammer, forge’, подкова ‘horseshoe’, Pol. pod-kowa ‘horseshoe’, wy-klepywać ‘hammer out’).

English chain is derived from Latin catena (fetter). Although it is difficult to prove, it is quite
possible that catena comes from Latin capto, similar to the Serbian verbs okovati, hvatati (catch)
and German heften (to tack, staple), German Haft (arrest, jail) is the word equal to Serbian
haps/ana (arrest, jail); cf. Ger. ver-haften (to arrest) = Serb. hapsiti (to arrest); also Haft (haft,
handle) = Serb. hvat (handle, haft). I suppose I do not need to explain that the German adjective
gefesselt (enchained, bounded) is the same word as Serbian uvezan/svezan (bounded, tied;
Serb. s-veza-li su ga ‘they tied him up’).

Starting from the “more definite” we are now (unwillingly) pushed back to the David’s “less
definite”. Comparing Latin asinus, Gothic asilus with the OSl осьлъ (Cz. osel; Pol. оsiоɫ, Sorb.
wоsоɫ) it would probably be possible to imagine ("reconstruct") the PIE ur-word for that horse’s
cousin: it could be something similar to *ha-hin-lu-s or even *ha-gni-(b)lu-s. In Serbian, donkey
is also called tovar (load, cargo), because donkey is well known draught animal.

Animals, cabalus and asilus, apeared to be related to the PIE word for animal. Although it
doesn’t look like that, Latin and Slavic general word for animal are derived from the same basis.
Caballus is nothing else but animal and Latin animal is related to Slavic životinja (animal) in the
same way as čelovek (man) and galava (head) are related to human and head (OE heafod).
One of the arguments that animal sounded once as g/khanibal is the Breton word aneval
(animal; cf. Lith. gyvulys and Latv. dzīvnieks); also Greek words ζώων, ζωικός, ζωώδης (animal)
seems to be very close to Slavic životnoe, životinjsko, živinsko, živina (animal).

The main problem here is to reconcile two different meanings, kovati (coin) and živeti (live) and
to understand which one of these two was used as a name for horse (equus =
okovan/okovat/hvat/uhvaćen/Haft ‘fettered’ or življenje ‘living’, živo(l)tinja ‘animal’. In some
cases is absolutely impossible to determine the way of evolution of the certain word although we
know exactly the basis from which that word began its “journey".

For instance, Gothic asilus sounds very close to Greek                 (asylum). Asilus in asylum! :-)
Let us first see why the Greeks used the same word for ‘letters’ as the Serbs did: slova =
συλλαβαί (letters, syllable). There are two possibilities in Serbian. One is that the word ’slovo’
(letter, word; OSl слово) is related to ’slava’ (glory, celebration; OSl слава; Gr. κλέος ‘fame’,
‘glory’; see Vasmer p. 3,673) and the Slavic verbs sliti, slivati (pour off; amalgamate, merge,
cast), izlivati (pour out), which is indirectly related to iz-lagati/iz-ložiti (to tell, speak; Gr. λόγος)
via the verb iz-linuti (pour out; from iz-lignuti). Maybe, it would be interesting to mention that
Greek verb αγάλλομαι (to exult, glory, jubilate) sounds almost the same as Serbian galama
(noise, uproar; cf. Gr. γλώσσα tongue, language; Serb. glas voice). The other possibility iz that
Greek and Serbian slova (letters) are mutually connected by the way how the letters were
casted (Serb. iz-liti, iz-livati) from lead (Serb. olovo; from liti, livati ‘pour’, ‘cast’; livid color is in
fact the color of lead). The simillar could have happened to the English word letter in relation to
lead (metal) if the word lead is a cognate of Latin fluito (to flow; from PIE *plou-d-).

Greek σῡλη means “right of seizure", “right of reprisal” and it might be compared to the Serbian
nouns sila (force, power), silina (intesity) and the adjective silan (mighty, vehement, terrific).
Similar as in Serbian, the Greek language has the word συλλείβω “collect by streaming", which
is equal to Serbian sliv (confluence) and the verb slivati/slijevati se (to flow; novac se sliva “the
money flows in").
Above mention “right of reprisal” or “right of seizure” is a “right to use the force” (Serb. sila
‘force’); also σύλλεκτος ‘gathered’, Serbian slagati (to gather, pile up). In reality, Serbian sila
(force), Greek σύλησις (spoiling, plundering) and Serbian silovanje (violation, raping) are the
words with the clear association to the river flowing or the river fl

           “collect by stream", “flow together") to name the letters (Gr. συλλαβαί; Serb. slova)
and to describe a violent behavior (Serb, silovanje, sila; Greek σύλησις, σῡλη).

Now it becomes clear that ‘asylum’ is a place were the use of force (Serb. sila) is forbidden (α-
          without violence). Most of the Greek and Serbian words used the same basis, but
usually it is very diffi                                                                              (shut up)
is the same word as Serbian zaključati (lock up, shut)? Above mentioned Serbian ’silovanje’
(violence), prisiljavanje (forcing, compulsion) or siljenje (forcing) are in fact just one form of
sudden movement, similar to the Serbian verb kuljanje/suljanje/sukljanje (gushing; kuljati to
spout, gush) and kuljanje comes from kobeljanje (rolling about; Eng. hobble) => gibanje
(movement, motion, stir). Namely, it seems that all idea about life and movement is originally
connected to the movement of clouds (Serb. oblak; from gnoblak => hoblak).
There is a “byname” for donkey in Serbian - sivonja - and that word (just like caballus) goes
back to “animal” (Serb. životinja, živina); i.e. to the above mentioned kobeljanje/gibanje or
življenje (gibati ‘move’ = živeti ‘live’). In order to understand this logic of “living” (gi-b-lenie => ži-
v-lenie; Lith. gyvuoti) the Serbian word ugibati (to die, perish, expire; Lith. keipti) could be of a
great help. Ugibati/ugi(b)nuti (die) is an antonym to živeti (live). Slavic konj (horse, OSl конь),
from the proto Slavic *kobnь (Vasmer, p. 2316), and kobila (mare) are cognates to Latin
caballus (pack-horse).

The diminutive of the word osl (donkey) is oslić and it rhymes with poslić (a small job). It is hard
to tell if Serbian posao has anything in common with English business (busy; OE bisig). In
Serbian, posao is probably related to the

                                             “hear from me", analogous to Serbian saslušajte me
“hear me", “listen to me").

Although it is evident that ass/donkey is a man’s servant his name appeared to have nothing to
do with his “servile” behavior. The name osel/Esel is most probably derived from the PIE root
*stol-b- wherefrom we obtained the words like Slavic stub/stolb (OSl стлъпъ column, pillar,
pole), Eng. stubborn, stub, stupid (OE stybb), Serb. tupav, zatupljen; dialect. zatupit (stupid).
Now we can understand that osel/Esel is a “stupid animal", an ass that was named like that in
accordance with his stupidity. One of the
                                                              (metatheses ostolp => oslopt; oslo-p
“fool, idiot"; Vasmer, p. 3,161).

What about the Latin word equus -i (horse)? Is it related to caballus (pack-horse)? Is the
phonetic similarity between word equus, equi- (horse) and aqua- (water) just a product of pure
coincidence? If we compare Serbian adjectives uhvaćen (captured, arrested, caught) and
ukvašen (soaked, wet) we can suppose that the verb uhvatiti shifted to ukvasiti in accordance
with the Serbian syntagn “uhvatila ga kiša” (caught by rain). Even the noun kiša (rain) appears
as to be derived from ‘kvašenje’ (wetting, soaking)? Is Latin capto related to aqua and equus in
the same way as the Serbian verbs hapsiti (arrest) and hapiti (take. seize) are related to hvatati
(catch), kobila (mare), konj (horse; from *kobnь) and possible to kvasiti (soak, wet)? What about
the history of the words like Slavic skot/skotin/stoka (cattle, animal) and Gothic skatts (money),
German Schatz (jewelry), OFries sket (money, cattle)? Does English catlle really originate from
Latin caput? Why not from Latin capio or habeo or Gemanic haban/habt? What is the realtion (if
any) among words capio, habeo, haben, imanje and caput, heafod, golova, kefalos, globe etc.?

Finally, let me try to answer the question I postulated in the beginning of this “essay” about the
origin of “equally-aqueous-equus-as/s-caballus". :-) Is it not interesting that coffin also has the
meaning “the horny part of a horse’s hoof” (Slavic kopyto)? In Serbian kofa is bucket (kofa from
kabao, kabal, kablica bucket, pail) and coffin is kovčeg (box, chest, trunk) and it appeared to be
related to the noun kovanje (forging, coining, mintage) as well as to kovač (blacksmith) and to
kopča (buckle, fastener, clutch, clasp, fibula). Maybe, this is a good enough evidence that
kopyto (hoof) is related to kovati (forge) and okovati (shackle); hence possible Serbian govedo
(cattle), from okovati (shackle; dial. okovato ’shackled)?

A Deep Understanding of Dummheit

Wednesday, 7. January 2009, 17:28:30

"Mental numbness" can be translated to Serbian as "mentalna tupost" (Cz. hloupost/tupost
dumbness, bluntness; Russ. глупость, тупость, тупоумие; OSlav. тѫпъ). English stupidity
(from Latin stupidus -a -um) seems as if it is a s- prefixed form of the Slavic word tup (blunt,
stupid); cf. Serb. za-tupeti (to become dull or stupid), is-tupljen (blunt).

Nevertheless, all the above-mentioned words are derived from the Gon- Bel-Gon basis
(according to HSF) or from the PIE roots *glebh- , *nebh- or *dheub- (in reality, these three roots
are derived from the same Gon-Bel-Gon basis, which represents any form of "roundness").

What is the reason that we have similarities among Slavic words glubina and dubina (deepness)
and the words that denote glupost and tupost (stupidity)?

Serbian gluv (deaf) is related to glup (stupid) in the same way as deaf (Ger. taub) is related to
deep (Ger. tief). I suppose, you have spotted that German tief (deep) is phonetically closer to
English deaf than deep, while German taub (deaf) is closer to English deep.

Is there anyone whose mental sharpness is preserved enough to understand the "simplicity" of
the processes of language formation?

Can be translated from what? It ain't an English expression.

Peter Daniels

If you say "mental numbness" in English it could be translated to Serbian as "mentalna tupost"
or "mentalna nemost". English numb and Serbian nem (mute, numb); both words are p
                                                           to deal out) and Serbian
naimanje/najam (tenure, tenancy) and najmiti (to lease, retain; cf. Serb. zajmiti, uzimati take).
An antonym to numb is nimble, and this nimble is akin to jovial, Serbian živ-ahan (jovial, quick)
and English quick...
After all these "instructions" I hope you will be able to comprehend the relation (kinship)
between Serbo-Slavic životinja (animal) and Latin animal.

Yellow Yolk

Wednesday, 7. January 2009, 17:11:48

Is there anyone who could precisely explain the kinship among Serbo-Slavic žolt/žut (yellow;
Cz.žluť; Russ. желтый ), žumance (yolk; Russ. желток; Cz. žloutek ) and English yellow and

For someone whose theory is allegedly infallible, you ask an awful lot of questions.

Harlan Messinger

I am trying to enkindle your hidden potentials
My potential for fuzzy thinking and self-delusion?

Harlan Messinger

You are wrong again. Let me take this example: Finish is a "compiled" language, which
vocabulary is, in a big percentage, composed of the words borrowed from Balto-Slavic or
German; and the Finish word for gold is related to the yellow color: kulta (gold), keltainen
(yellow). Now, if we had considered Estonian muna-kollane (yolk; muna egg + kollane yellow),
kollane (yellow) and kuld (gold) we would have understand that we wouldn't be able to notice so
easily that Estonian kollane is akin to English yellow if we hadn't compared it to the above-
mentioned Finish words.

You would probably uphold that I digress from the main subject if I say that Albanian
word/syntagm for yolk is e verdhë e vezës (literally, "the yellow of an egg"), where the word
verdhë (obviously a loanword from Latin viridis -e 'green'; Ital. verde) means yellow instead of
green. On the other side is Albanian gjelbër (green), which is borrowed from the Latin gilvus-a -
um/galbinus -a -um with the reversed (erroneous) meaning; cf. Oriolus galbula (yellow and black
colored singing bird). Albanian diell (sun) appeared to be related to Greek δειλός (yellow) and
ήλιος (sun)

Greek gold (χρυσός gold) is probably related to S          -

                                      (                                                          (blaze,
light) and Serbo-Slavic svetlo (Russ. светлый; Cz. světlo; Ger. hell).

According to all the above mentioned words it becomes clear that gold is closely related to the
yellow color - as well as to the sun. In fact, gold has the same yellow (golden)color as/of the
sun-light. It also means that Latin sol -is is akin to Serbo-Slavic zoloto. In reality, Latin sol -is is
derived from the same basis as Slavic solnce (Russ. солнце; Cz. slunce; Pol. slonce; Serb.
sunce "sun"); Lat. salubris is akin to salvus/sanus (healthy) and the both words are related to
Serbo-Slavic zdravlje (from srablje, sravlje => zravlje health; Russ. здоровье; Cz. zdraví ; Pol.
A Gliding Gluttony

Wednesday, 7. January 2009, 16:51:51

Greek χολά                                             guts, bowels, entrails) is the c

                                (gullet, throat) are related to Serbo-Slavic usta (mouth; dat.
ustima; Russ. уста; Cz. ústa) and Serbian stomak (belly, abdomen). It is interesting that the
Serbian noun trbuh - [belly, abdomen, which is logically related to the Serbian nouns hrpa
(heap, pile; Cz. hromady; Pol. gromadzić; cf. Eng. group) torba (bag, sack, pouch; Pol. torba)
and the verb trpati (to stack, pile up)] - doesn't exist in East and West Slavic vocabularies.

On the other side is the Serbo-Slavic adjectiv gladan (hungry; Pol. głodny, Cz. hladový,
Rus.голодный), which sounds almost the same as Greek χολάδες or English glutton (from Lat.
gluto). The Slavic adjective gladan (hungry) is closely related to the verb gutati (swallow; Lat.
glutio; Russ. глотать/glotaty; Cz. hltat, po-hltit).

Lithuanian skilandis (the belly of a pig stuffed with minced meat) is the same kind of sausage as
Serbian hladetina. The question is, what glutton has in common with the verb glide?

The problem here is also the English word gulp. Is it really of imitative origin? There is Serbian
verb kljukati (stuff, which appears to be related to zalagati/zalogaj (swallow, mouthfull, snack).
What about German schlucken? Can it be related to Serbian kljukanje (pampering; to indulge
with rich food) and zalog/zalogaj (bite, mouthful). English swallow sound almost the same as
Serbian žvalaviti/ žvaliti/žvalavi (a deep kissing, eat half-heartedly), žvala (bit, curb). The same
žvalavljenje/žvaljenje is the original of the later Serbian word žvakanje/žvatanje (chewing,
masticating; from žvalkanje => žvakanje; cf. Gr. φαγειν eat, devour; φάγος glutton; Serb. žvaka
chewing gum). In Serbian the history of similar words is completely transparent. It all comes
from the verb oblivati/obliti (suffuse) => balaviti (dribble, salivate, slobber) => prefixed za-
balaviti/zalivati (to salivate), žvalaviti (žvaljhenje => žvalkanje => žvakanje chewing).

Anyone intelligent out there who is able to understand what I am talking about?
Hlaford (Lord, Glavar) - the Head of a Tribe?

Thursday, 27. November 2008, 09:23:29

According to serious etymologists the English title lord is derived from the compound hlaf
(bread, loaf) + weard (ward, warder). In Serbo-Slavic it could be calqued as "hlebo-vratar" - hleb
(loaf) + vratar (warder; the guardian of entrance; Serb. vrata door). Such an etymology, albeit
possible, doesn't seem convincing enough, especially not if we take in consideration the woman
"lordly" title - hlafæta (lady), literally "the one who eats loaf/bread". I must add here that naming
a woman (mistress, a lord's wife) as "loaf-eater" would be not only comic but completely
senseless. There is another etimology that can be proposed for the words lord and lady, by
comparing it with Slavic paterfamilias (glava porodice, Cz. hlavy rodiny, Russ. глава семьи; the
head of family; OSlav. глава head). Serbian glavar (chief, warden; Cz. hlavny; Pl. główny), as
we can see, sounds similar to OE hlaford. In addition, there is a Serbian word, which sounds the
same as OE hlaford, and it is 'glavurda' (a big head; chief; Serbian surname Glavurtić). Has
anyone been thinking about the possibility that English lord can be a loanword from Serbo-
Slavic glavar/glavurda (chief, the head of a tribe, clan, family)?

The source of "lady" is hlafdige (load-kneader), not hlafæta. All three hlaf- words are *attested*,
and the transformation of two of them into "lord" and "lady" is thoroughly attested from a steady
stream of examples from over the centuries, including the period where the f faded into "u"
before vanishing.

Ðo ne miȝte he non louerd ðhauen. (c1250)

Bruttes nemnede þa laȝen æfter þar lafuedi. (c1250)

Havelok 607 þis is ure eir þat shal ben louerd of denemark. (c1300)

Forð siðen ghe bi abram slep Of hire leuedi nam ghe no kep. (1325)

As for hlafæta, it is factual that it was a word. It meant servant or dependent, regardless of how
ludicrous you may find this to be.

Harlan Messinger

I have no intention to ofend anyone, if any offence may be found in my above words.

In fact, this is a good oportunity for those, whose mind is open for new ideas, to understand the
"magic powers" of my Xur-Bel-Gon Speech Formula (HSF). Namely, no one seems to have
spotted that hlaford 'lord' is ver
                                                            ). Now, try to compare Greek kebale
(head) with OHG gebal 'skull' (hence Ger. Gipfel and Kopf) and try to understand that all these
words are derived from the same Gon-Bel basis as Serbo-Slavic glava (head).

Taking in consideration all the above facts, any average intelligent person must come to the
same "dubious" conclusion: Serbo-Slavic glavar (head, chief; Serb. glavurda "big head") could
be the word that came from the same "arsenal" as OE hlaford (ME laverd lord).

Finally, I have one question for you and for all lingua experts on Sci- lang: can you explain the
relationship among words gallows, Lat. gabalus, and Slavic glava (ОRuss. головьникъ/galovnik
executioner; cf. Eng. capital punishment )?

And here we are back in because-I-say-so land.

                     /hleborodie fertility) and it also sounds similar to halford (laverd) as well as
the Bulgarian word главатар/glavatar (chieftain, chief) that is the same as Serbian glavar (chief)
and glavurda (big head). As you probably know, the English sufix -ard (or -art) indicates some
regular activities (coward, dullard, drunkard, wizard, braggart) and it appears to be the same
suffix as Greek -arch/y or Serbian -ar (vlad-ar ruler; gospod-ar master, glava-r chieftain). I have
no time now to explain you why and how the words like Serbo-Slavic rad (work), red (order; cf.

 ργον (work; cf. Serb. verganje/vršenje "working" and Eng. working!) and whole spectra of
words in other IE languages that are derived from the Hor-Gon ur-basis, starting from its
essential meanings: circle (Serb. krug) and cruising/circling ( Serb. kruženje).
The other thing you seem to be forgetting is the central meaning of the English word "loaf".
Could the OE word hlaf be related to Latin globus (globe) and Late Latin lobus (lobe, a rounded
projection) as well as to Serbo-Slavic klobuk (clump, lump, clod, cloud; cf. Serb. h/ oblak cloud;
h/oblina roundness; h/oblik effigy)?

Finally, can't you see that 'loaf' has the slang meaning 'head' too?

As usual, I can't "see" something that you just made up and have no reason to believe. But as
usual, you think that if you say "can't you see?" you think you've proved your point, right?

Your problem is that you cannot grasp that the evolution of language is much simpler then the
modern linguistic science is ready to believe. I am asking you some questions because I wish to
arouse and encourage your critical thinking.

For instance, how it happened that German Leib (body) became life (Leben) afterwards? Similar
is in Slavic (telo body; from deblo, debljina thickness) between words življenje (living) and
h/oblina (roundness). Cf. življenje (living), debljina (thickness), deblo (trunk), telo (body).

If you compare Russian adjectives жилой/žiloy and живой/živoy (both with the menaing "living")
you will be able to perceive that these words were derived from the Gon-Bel-Gon basis, where,
in the first case, the sound 'b' has been elided and in the second (živoy) the sound 'l' is missing.

German past participle gelebt (lived) is also derived from the Bel => Leb transposed Gon-Bel-
Gon basis (Serb. živeo; from gi-bel-go => ži- blje-o => živeo; ijekavian form is still živjeo; lj to j
sound change: življeo => živjeo/živio).

Try to engage some of your mental energy into a real/serious thinking instead of rejecting my
explanations a priori. Your problem is that you cannot grasp that the evolution of language is
much simpler then the modern linguistic science is ready to believe. I am asking you some
questions because I wish to arouse and encourage your critical thinking.

I grasp that it isn't so "simple" (as though any of your explanations is simple) just because you
claim it is. When you ask questions that contradict reality or that have no evidence to support
the implied conclusions, my critical thinking shields me from your nonsense, while the same
nonsense highlights the lack of critical thinking on your own end. [snipping yet more haphazard
collections of words with no sign of your ever having comprehended what you've been told
about the difference between what you do and genuine analysis]

I just wanted to make you acquainted with the origin of words like Serbian biće (being), Latin
vivo -ere, Greek βιος and "to be or not to be", but I see it would be an unavailing effort from my
side. <QUOTE>German "Laib" (sometimes, evidently, spelled "Leib") = loaf is related to "hlaif".
But German "Leib" = *body* is not. Loaf (hlaif) is the same word with the same meaning as lump
or lobe and its original meaning was not "bread". Even bread started from the PIE root *bhreue-
or from the HSF Bel-Hor-Gon basis (brew, Serb. vrenje brewing;bariti boil; Russ. варить, пиво-
варение; Cz. vařit, vaření). In ancient times bread was mostly shaped in a round form and
therefore its name is derived from the notion of "roundness" [Serb. kruh (bread) is derived from
krug "circle"].

Consider the syntagm "a loaf of bread" and some things (I hope) will become much clearer to
you. <QUOTE>Certainly it did: hlaifs, hlaf, lump, and lobe do not all refer to the same things and
come from different PIE roots. It doesn't refer to the "sama thing" but it refers to the same round
form .
In addition, it (bread) could also come from the PGmc *brennan (Ger. Brand fire; OE brand,
brond "firebrand"; brand => bread?), similar to Serbian piroška/prženica (from the noun prženje
frying/burning/ parching; Russ. пирог, пирожок, Cz. piroh) or burek (from purenje burning),
Turkish börek (a loanword from Serbian).
But all this "hypotheses" doesn't change the point I have tried to underline. The name of
bread/loaf is shifted from something else(!!!). In case of loaf it is more than clear that it comes
from "roundness" or from the round-shaped form of bread. Serbo-Slavic lopta "ball" (from
hlopta) is the source of the Slavic word "hleb" and in a similar way it happened in Germanic
languages - loaf, lump, lobe!

Since "loaf", "lump", and "lobe" came from three unrelated sources, it follows that you're wrong.
("Lobe" is from Latin.) The "h" in "hleb" and "hlaf" connects the words to Ancient Greek
"klibanos", baking oven, centuries before the time when, in your theory, they would have to have
magically appeared. Besides, it would be an amazing coincidence if the Germanic and Slavic
peoples both added "h" to words that didn't previously have them.
The problem is that the most of the people on this forum are heavily burdened with the
"scientific" teaching of modern linguistic. Of course, such a knowledge is helpful (useful) but it
also may be extremely hindering, in sense of preventing people to see the wood behind the "all-
knowing tree".

Additionally, it is impossible to understand what I am talking about if the reader is not familiar
with some of the Slavic languages, because the internal logic and kinship among the words are
not so precise in Germanic, Romance and Greek vocabulary.

A Shower of Applause vs. Fiasco

Tuesday, 25. November 2008, 06:41:13

The OED states that "fiasco" means "flask, bottle" in Italian. It adds
that "the fig. use of the phrase far fiasco (lit. ‘to make a bottle’)
in the sense ‘to break down or fail in a performance’ is of obscure
origin; Italian etymologists have proposed various guesses, and
alleged incidents in Italian theatrical history are related to account
for it. "

Does anyone know of some of these fanciful "incidents in Italian
theatrical history?"


Here are few Slavic words that might be of great help in this case. For instance, hip-flask is
named pljoska in Serbian (Russ. фляжка; Cz. placatka) and that name refers to the flatness
(Serb. pljosnat flat; Russ. плоскость flatness; Cz. plochost) of such a bottle. Now we can
understand that English flask is closely related to the word flat (in sense of broader surface in
relation to depth or thickness).
Let us now see where the word "flat" is coming from? Is it related to "plane"? In Serbian, plane
is "poljana" (plane, field; Russ. поле; Cz. pole). Does it mean that English 'field' is derived from
the same ur-basis as 'plane' and 'flat'? What about the words as English plate, plateau, place
and Serbian ploča/ploha (plate, table; Cz. plech; Russ. плита). In addition, we can see that the
English noun "land" is akin to Serbian 'ledina' (turf; from its side, turf is related to Serbian
'travnjak' lawn; trava = grass; Russ. лужайка) and Serbian ledina comes from 'poleđina' (back
surface); i.e. it comes from the same Bel-Gon basis as the above mentioned word 'poljana'
(field; cf. the Pole nation is also called Lech, related to Latin, Latium and Ladino; Serb.
Leđani/Latini "the Latin people").

Originally, all the above words are logically connected to the behaviour of water (lake, see),
because there is no flatter object in nature beside an unagitated water surface. It is the reason
why the Serbian noun poljana (field) is a word similar to the Serbian verbs bljunuti (belch forth,
spew, vomit, gush) and polinuti/plinuti (suffuse, gush; also politi; plima tide; cf. Eng. field and
float, flood).

Now we are approaching the most interesting part of our story. Is the Serbian word ples (dance;
Cz. ples; Russ. пляска; OSlav. плѩсати) related to English 'play'? Czech plesat has the same
meaning as MDutch pleyen (OE plegian) — rejoice! Obviously, Serbian 'plesanje' (dancing) is
the same word as OE plegian (Slavic h => s palatalization). On the other side, as an opposition
to "rejoicing", stays Gothic flokan (bewail) that clearly corresponds to the Serbian verb 'plakanje'
(weeping, lament).

What is the real meaning of 'plesanje' and 'plegian'? Could it be related to pulse and what 'pulse'
has got to do with the English verb 'beat' and Serbian 'biti' (beat; also 'opaliti' strike, fire)?
Serbian 'pljesnuti' (slap, clap) and 'pljesak' (applause) are related to 'pljusnuti' (splash) and
'pljusak' (shower) and it shows that applause (Lat. plausus) was compared to the splash of
water or to a heavy shower; cf. Lat. pluit/pluvit (it rains, a shower falls; Serb. bljuvati disgorge,
plaviti float, oblivati/polivati (suffuse, flush, sluice).

As we know, rejoicing is often expressed (not casually) through the "shower of applause". It is
interesting to mention that English 'splash' is equal to the Serbian is- or za-/ s- prefixed verbs 'is-
pljuskati' (2nd sing. imperative, is-pljušći "splash!") and 'za-pljusnuti' (to splash). Hence the
Serbian verbs 'is-pljeskti' (to beat out, strike) and 'spljeskati/spljoštiti' (to flatten), as well as the
above mentioned 'pljoska' (hip-flask; flattened bottle).

Nevertheless, the Italian fiasco (fallimento; a sudden collapse, failure) might have nothing in
common with flask, although it sounds the same as fiasco (flask). Namely, we have seen that
flask was named like that because of its flattened form (Serb. pljoska flask; pljosnat flattened).
In Serbian, there is the syntagm "pasti pljoštimice" (to fall down like a piece of lead), which
indicates that the Serbian verb 'pasti' (3rd sing. perfect 'palo' fall/fallen) erstwhile sounded as
'palsti' (padanje falling comes from earlier paldanje). An additional argument that this
assumption is correct can be found in Serbian vocabulary: verbs 'pljosnuti' and 'ljosnuti' (where
the initial 'p' has been elided) - both with the meaning "to fall".

Moist in the Mist

Saturday, 1. November 2008, 13:04:13

Maybe it would be interesting to try to see what the etymology of Latin timeo -ere could be. Is
this word related to Latin temere(blindly, by chance, casually, heedlessly)? Of course, we know
that temere comes from the PIE *temes- (darkness; Serb. tama; Skt. tama/s; Avest. tamah; OIr.
temel; OHG demar twilight; OSl. тьма). I would say that the Latin adverb 'temere' is akin to
Serbian 'tumar-anje' (roam, bustle, an aimless wandering as if in darkness). Being in darkness
causes anxiety (Latin nox noctis, Lat. anxius anxious; Serb. noćna mora = Eng. night-mare) and
it implies that Latin timeo -ere might be derived from the PIE *temes-?

In addition, there is the Serbian adjective tmuran (dull, gloomy; Russ. хмурый; Cz. chmurný),
which is clearly derived from tama (darkness; also known in Serbian as tmina, tmuša; Russ.
темнота, темень, хмурость; Cz. tma, temnota). Russian and Czech forms, hmuriy and
chmurný, imply that the original Slavic word 'tama' (darkness, murk, obscurity) started with velar
fricative /h/ and later changed to the voiceless dental plosive /t/. In fact, Serbo-Slavic 'tama'
comes from the Gon-Bel ur-basis, like in Latin nubilus -a -um (cloudy, overcast; dark, gloomy),
which clearly shows that tama (darkness) is closely connected with the behavior of clouds
(Serb. oblak from (Hn)Oblak; nebo sky, from (h)Nebe(l); Lat. nebula).
The above analysis indirectly proves that Spanish humo (smoke) is the older form then Latin
fumus, because Serbo-Slavic dim (smoke; Russ.дым, дымок; Cz. dým) is the "voiced-dental-
plosive" form of "(h)nubilus" or "tama" (darkness. If we compare Russian dym (smoke), temnota,
tma (dark) and tuman (forg, mist, haze) we will understand the way in which all these words
evolved from the "cloudy" or "nebulous" Gon-Bel basis. ;-)

Now we can grasp that Greek             (cloud),          (cloud of mist) and        (fog, mist) are
derived from the same Gon-Bel ur-basis as Serbian magla (fog; Lith. migla) and oblak (cloud). If
we compare Serbian magla (fog, mist) and Czech mlha (fog, mist) zamlžit (to fog) we can spot
the transposition of sounds from the older Czech word mlha to the younger Serbian magla or
Greek omihle. In reality, mlha ili magla is one of the many derivatives of Gon-Bel basis,
beginning with nebo (sky)and oblak (cloud) over vlaga (wetness, moisture; Cz. vláha => mlha)
to Slavic voda (water; from Bel-Gon => velgon => volga => volda => voda; cf. Russ. volna
wave, swell; tide, Serb. val; Cz. vlna, vlnka wavelet).

I hope some of the members of this forum are able to comprehend that English moist, humidity
and Ltin mucus are closely related to Slavic vlaga (wetness) mlha/magla (fog, mist) and the verb
močiti [dunk, urinate; from molhiti, uma(l)kati].

A Dooming Dumanje

Sunday, 26. October 2008, 11:34:30

Васмер (Vasmer) says that Russian думать is a loan word from Gothic dōmjan (to judge;
"заимствование из гот. dōmjan "судить" или производное от дума..."; Serb. dumati 'to think').
It seems that Vasmer did not scrutinize this word as far as to understand its real origin in Slavic.
On the other side, I do not know if any serious etymology has compared Germanic *domaz and
Latin dubito (doubt; cf. Gr.      law, judgement; Latv. domāt 'to think'). Namely, in order to
realize what has happened and how these words evolved in different IE languages, I would say,
we should begin with the word "deepness" (from the PIE root *deubh-; Ger. Tief, Gr.
very deep; Serb. dubina /from dubljina 'deepness'; udubljenje 'hollow', udaljavanje 'alieniation',
'removing', 'departure'; see my earlier post).

In Russian the word for 'deepness' is глубина (glubina; Cz. hlubina), while in Serbian it appears
as 'dubina' (similar to English deepness). Unfortunately, Vasmer seems to be unable to connect
these two words; i.e. he did not understand that Russian 'glubina' is derived from the same ur-
basis as Serbian 'dubina' or English 'deep'. If he had been more introspective he would probably
have seen the kinship between the Russians words выдалбливать (vidalblivatь 'indent', 'dig
out', 'deepen') and углублять (uglubljatь 'deepen').

Vasmer is right about Greek γλύφω (carve; γλύφᾰνος tool for carving, knife, chisel)- that word is
akin to Russian glubina, Serbian dubina, English deep, but he is not right about the Latin word
glubo (peel, strip the bark from, rob). Latin glubo, -ere is related to the Serbian verb guliti (peel,
flay, strip)and globiti (rob). In fact, Latin glubo comes from the sam Gon-Bel source, but with
different connotations and different semantic determinants. Often we can see that the antonyms
are made of the words that opposed them. For instance, above-mentioned Latin glubo and
Serbian golo (naked) is related to English cloth (cloak, coat) or Serbian kaput (from klaput; Serb.
oklapati 'to cover', oklop 'armour', shield, mail, shell).

As we can see, the semantic shifts that can be observed in these cases are very big and,
especially at first sight, somewhat unexpected. Who would ever have supposed that English dell
(Serb. dolja, dolina) is related to heap (Serb. hum, gomila)? Furthermore, if we follow (backward
in time) the semantic values of dell (Serb. dolja)we would be able to grasp that dell is a small
hollow or a deepened (depressed, indented, excavated) ground or, in Serbian, it is "udubljena
površina" (deepened, concave area). It means that Serbian "dolja" (dell) is nothing else but
"udubljenje" (hollow).

Nevertheless, let us live our heap-dell contemplation and let us go back to the words "doom"
and "dumanje", with which we have begun this discussion . It is interesting to mention that Latin
habeo has the meaning 'think' or 'consider' (beside 'have' and 'keep'), because Serbo-Slavic
'dumanje' also seems to be related to the other Serbo-Slavic verbs as 'imati' (have, posses) and
'umeti' (know-how). The Serbian syntagm "umeti imati imanje" could be literally translated as "to
know-how how to have a possession/estate/having/domain/". It becomes obvious that the
Serbian verb 'imati' is logically connected to the verb 'umeti' (to know how), beause you cannot
achieve anything substantial unless you know how to do it.

In my earlier posts I was talking about the kinship of words like domain, imanje (estate),
domaćinstvo/dom (household/home), hamlet, selo (village) etc. Also, the possible reader who
have carefully followed what I have written on this forum must remember that I was mentioning
an unusual relation between the Serbo-Slavic čovek/človek (hu-man). There are additional
Serbian words that entirely correspond to the English noun 'human' (Lat. homo): one is 'kum'
(god-father; also known in Serbian as 'kumašin', 'kuman') and the other is 'komšija' (neighbour).

In reality, no one can understand the history of these words if he doesn't start from the Gon-Bel
ur-basis, which represents a "rounded heap" or any "global" form, beginning from the globe
(globus, Serb. lopta /ball/, Serb. zemlja /earth/, gemela, zemela, humus, Serb. gomila /heap/,
tellus, Serb. tlo /ground/)and ending with words for the human/head (Serb. glava /head/, heafod,
caput, Kopf, Serb. glavonja /an important person/, Serb. čovek /from glovek, galavak, glavonja;
i.e. glovek => človek).

It means that the development of languages and evolvment of certain single words in different
IE tongues had been much simpler than any modern linguistic scientist could have ever hoped

We are going to see that the Irish vocabulary possesses the word domhain (from Celtic *dubno-
deepness, Serb. dubina). It clearly shows the b to m sound change, and the same happened to
Serbo-Slavic 'dubina' (deepness) in comparison to 'dumanje' (thinking). It's not accidentally that
the Serbian adjective 'udubljen' has the meaning "thoughtful"; i.e. 'sunken into the deepness of
thoughts' (in-depth thinking). If we add to these words the Serbian noun 'dojam' (impression,
feeling, sensation, sense) and the adjektiv 'dojmljeno' (grasped, sensed) it seems that things are
getting more and more clear. The seemingly "far-fetching" correspondance between the words
glava (head) and dumanje (thinking), I hope, is now much more understandable.

Please, do not be shy; be free to ask whatever you may find "undecipherable".
First, Second, Third...Socializing

Thursday, 2. October 2008, 06:59:05

Inspired (or something like that) by the recent discussions of "second" in English, I looked it up
in the OED, which includes the following comment in the etymology.

Adam Funk

Nevertheless, there is the English word 'twine' (entwine) which is related to Serbian 'udvajanje'
(making one of two) and German zweite (zweien twos; Serb. dvoje; Germ. Zwillinge twins; Serb.

English other is related to OSl. въторъ (vtory, utory) and Slavic 'second' (Russ. другой, Serb.
drugi, Cz. druhy). In this case, tha basis of all these words is 'circle' (krug, hring; OSl. крѫгъ).
Now we will see that Slavic drugi (second) and treći (Russ. третий third; OSl. третии; Gr.
τριτος, Lat. tertius, Goth. þridja) are derived from the same "associating" primal word (Serb. krug
circle; kružok a small society; therefrom udruženje, udruga (association), drug (friend), družina
(band, company, troop). It means that an "other" (vtory, drugi /second/) or "others" (tretiy, treći
/third/) are necessary for making a society/community/company (Serb. društvo).

OTOH the Slavic prvi (first; OSl. прьвъ) is related to Latin primus (b => m sound change) and it
comes from the verb probiti (penetrate, break out, break through), hence the English words
probe and prove as well as Serbian pravo (right, straight, law)...

The first line of this paragraph is correct.
Well done, keep it up!!!

Paul Kriha

Serbian 'probati' (attempt, try, taste; Russ. пробовать; Pol. próbować) is clearly related to the
verb 'probiti' (penetrate, break through; Russ. пробить to punch, to hole; Cz. průbojník
puncher), because the one who is "breaking through" must be the FIRST (prime, Serb. prvi,
Russ. первый; Cz. prvni) one to PROBE (Serb. probati taste) the new "environment". Serbian
'probijati' (Russ. пробивать to punch, penetrate, break through) is logically related to other
Serbian words as 'pravo' (straight ahead), pravac (direction; Russ. правление). There is a
Serbian adjective 'is-pravno" (correct, right), which is the same word as ''is-probano (well-tried,
checked, PROVED), with a slight shift in meaning and with the change of the sound b to [v].

Are you so blind that you can't see the easy perceivable semantic correspondences among
those words? Slavic pravda (justice, right) is a synonym for the proved truth. I can understand
people like Harlan, Brainy or Denials who do not have any knowledge of Slavic; but, you are a
fluent speaker of Czech and you are familiar with other Slavic tongues and, despite of all your
undoubted knowledge, you are still unable to grasp (at least in outlines) the internal logic of
Slavic vocabulary?

Black Krshna

Tuesday, 30. September 2008, 06:56:16

Russian <čërnyj> 'black' most certainly is cognate with
Sanskrit <kṛṣṇa-> 'black, dark'.

One has to be remarkably stupid, ignorant, or both to
imagine that the cognacy of the words implies identity of
the gods. Krishna and the Devil are associated with the
color black for different reasons.

Brian M. Scott

First, the words cherniy (Russ.черный black; Serb. crn; Cz. černo; OSl чрънъ) and chort (devil;
Russ. черт; Cz. čert ) are not directly related. Of course, both words are derived from the same
ur-basis (Hor-Gon), but with a different "evolutionary" path. Namely, these words are distantly
related to OSl горѣти (Russ. гореть, Serb. goreti; Russ. горение burning, Serb. gorenje; Cz.
hoření; Skt. kiraṇa ray; Lith. karštas burning; OIr. gorim burning; Gr. θέρος summer heat;

The Serbian verbs harati (devastate), po-harati (rob), po-koriti (conqer, subjugate; Russ.
покорять) are clearly related to the above mentioned word "goreti" (burn). On the other side are
the Serbian words as gar (soot; Russ. нагар burn, snuff, soot), garav, garo (black), garežan
(coverd with soot), which are also evidently derived from the earlier verb 'goreti' (burn). I means
that Slavic chern comes from horen; i.e. OSl. goreti, Serb. garan => cherni/crn (black).

As you can see, Serb. garežan (covered with soot, burned; cf. Russ. nagar burned and Serb.
nagoreo, Lat. niger black) is phonetically very close to Skt. krishna (black) and it shows that
Slavic 'chert' has nothing essentially to do with 'chern' (black), because 'chert' is related to
Slavic 'harati' (devastate) and English 'hurt') despite the above mentioned fact that 'harati'
comes from the same basis as gar (soot) and cherniy (black) and that both of these words are
closely related to the Slavic verb 'goreti/horeti' (burn) and the noun 'gorenje/horenje' (burning).

Guitar Teetering

Monday, 28. July 2008, 11:10:04

English teetering (ON titra, Ger. zittern) sounds almost the same as Serbian titranje (teetering,
vibration, oscillation, seesaw, tottering).
Is guitar (Gr. κιθάρα, Sp. guittara) related to teeter?
In Serbian the history of the word titranje is completely transparent: it comes from the Hor-Gon
basis, which primal meaning is "circle"; i.e. krug (circle) => kruženje (circulation; kretanje
movement) => građenje (build; Slav. grad/gorad city; in fact encircling, encircled area, the same
logic as in case of Eng. enclosure).

Serbian noun rad (work) is derived from the verb graditi (build) and u(h)raditi (from ugraditi built
in). On the other hand, Serbian ugraditi originated from the gon- prefixed Hor-Gon basis; i.e.
from Gon-Hor-Gon. What are the main acts of applying force in order to build a habitat? First, is
it not striking/hitting (Serb. udaranje; Slovak udrieť), pushing (Serb. guranje) and driving (Serb.
teranje)? All these tree words (udaranje, guranje, teranje) have the same parent - the Serbian
word ugradnja (construction; verb. ugraditi to build in, embed). If we take a more careful look at
the English word construction, we can see the similar develpment, beginning with the ur-basis
Gon-Hor-Gon (or rather Gon-Xur-Gon; con-stru-ing, stri-king; Serb. s-krojiti to tailor, mold; u-
strojiti to build, to construct).

Now we are coming to the main point. Guitar is a stringed instrument and in order to produce
the tones one has to strike (Serb. udarati) its strings (Serb. strune). The Serbian word strune
(strings) is related to the above-mentioned strojenje (constructing; from skrojenje/skrajanje
molding, tailoring, carpentering) and other Serbian words as striganje (shearing, fleecing), škare
(scissors), stroj (machine). Striking (Serb. udar) always causes teetering (Serb. titranje) as well
as tearing (Serb. trganje) and tremble (Serb. drmanje, trema).

Finally, there is the Serbian word dodir (touch), which has obviously been understood as a small
udar (hit, strike, beat; udaranje <= hudaranje <= hu(n)hara-gne <= Gon-Hor-Gon basis). The
erbian syntagm "udarati u strune/žice" (strike the strings) has the same meaning as the word
"play" (Serb. svirati).

Hawk the Eagle

Sunday, 27. July 2008, 13:05:10

The name for eagle in Greek is αετος/aetos and the same bird is named aquila in Latin. Is there
anything what connects these two words? As we know, Greek aetos is derived from older forms
αιβετος/aibetos/aivetos, αιf-ετος or even υπ-αετος /eagle, vulture/). This last mentioned name -
hupaetos - seems to be akin to Latin capio -ere (seize, take; Serbian kupiti take, seize; kobac
sparrow hawk).

Now, if we compare the Serbian word kobac (sparrow-hawk), sokol (hawk), Spanish gavilán
[sparrow-hawk) and English hawk (OE hafoc; Ger. Habicht hawk; OIr. sebocc; Welsh hebog;
Lat. capus, from capio (seize)] an interesting conlusion will come up:
                          -    -       -
          cover; λαμβανω take, seize fr          -                       /klepto seize or occupy
secretly, to steal; Serb. lapiti take, seize, steal).

Of course, any reader, who followed my earlier posts, probably knows that the Gon-Bel-Gon ("a
round heap") ur-basis gave the words as Serbian ne
καλυβη hut), oblak (cloud; Ger. Wolken, Lat. nebula). It means that the words - like okupljati
(gather), assemble, occupy                                                              (gather),
gomilati (to heap up) - are derived from the above "round heap" and according to that their main
characteristic is "accumulation" (Serb. gomilanje, okupljanje); hence the words habitat, Ger.
haben and Serb. imati (have), imanje (from hiMbanje property, holding; cf. Serbian domovina
motherland, home = imovina, imanje property, possession, assets).

Of course, hawk (Serb. sokol, kobac) is the animal who gathers (Serb. okuplja, sakuplja,
skuplja) the birds that were shot down by hunters. This shows that the original name of Serbian
sokol was sokobl [Serb. surname Skoblar is "soko/b/lar" => sokolar (one who trains
hawks/falcons) , equal to the Germanic surname Faulkner/Hawker or Italian Falkone(r)]. Now
we know that the ancient town of Scupi (Skopje, Skoplje, FYRO Macedonia) was named in
accordance with the name of the bird sokol (sokobl; falcon, hawk).

It would be interesting to mention the native name of Albanians - Shqipetar, which, according to
popular etymology, was derived from the word shqiponjë (eagle), while Petar Skok, Serbian
etymologist born in Austro-Hungarian Empire (Žumberak, 1881; today in Croatia), suggested
that the name Sqipetar originated from "Scupi (Albanian Shkupi), the capital of the Roman
province of Dardania". Hawk is named in Albanian "skifter" and it additionally corroborates the
thesis about the Shqipetars as the so-called "eagle-people". As I mentioned above, Scupi
(Skoplje) is a "hawk-town" (Sokol/Sokobl grad) and Skoblar/Skopljak (one who trai the hawks)
are the Slavic surnames related to the bird hawk (cf. Slovenian skobec sparrow-hawk). At the
same time, the ancient name of Skoplje (Scupi) is strong evidence that the Slavs have inhabited
the Balkan Peninsula from the most ancient times.

Let us see now what the origin of the Latin word aquila (eagle) might be. Could it be that this
word was also derived from the same basis (Gon-Bel-Gon)? First thing we have to settle is to
see what is the relation among Latin words aquila (eagle), aquilus (dark-colored) and aquilo -
onis (the north wind). In order to understand this miraculous and almost inexhaustible sound
changes inside the Gon-Bel-Gon basis, we must go back to the primary "accumulation" [Serbian
kobeljanje (to roll about, Eng. hobble; Russ. колебаться), kolebanje (seesaw, teeter*;
metathesis from kobeljanje; hence Serb. kolevka cradle; Cz. kolébka; Russ. колыбель) and
kuljanje (gush, a sudden rapid flow of water, smoke, or cold air. This last Serbian word (kuljanje)
is related to the other serbian words as kolo (circle, wheel, Russ. колесо, Cz. kolo) and kolanje
(circulation; Cz. kolovat). All the above words are formed as a carefully observed comparison of
the characteristics of clouds and the other moving objects in the human surroundings. It is not
casually that the motion of big clods of clouds (Serb. kobeljanje k/oblaka "hobbling of clouds";
Russ. колебанье облаков) was compared to the the movement of big mases of people (Serb.
okupljanje/gomilanje gathering, assembling; i.e. acummulation = assembling, heaping up).

We shall see that the above-mentioned Serbian kuljanje (gush) is related not only to the Serbian
word kolanje (circulation), but it is also akin to the word hujanje (a loud noise, as of wind, water,
or vehicles obviouslx derived from kuljanje => huljanje => hujanje) and duvanje (a strong
blowing of the wind). From the same source (Gon-Bel-Gon) originated the Serbian words
kolutanje [rolling; Serb. colut (segment, a compact mass; Serb. kolut dima "a clod of smoke") is
the word equal to Eng. clod or cloud)], and hlađenje (kooling; Slovak chladený, Russ.
охлаждение). In fact, English cooling corresponds to Serbian kuljanje (gush; Russ. излияние),
and kolanje (circulation), while English "cold" appears to be the same word as Serbian hlad
(shade) and the adjective hladan (cold). It means that hlađenje/cooling was understood as a
process of circulation (Serb. kolanje). Taking the history of all the above-mentioned words in a
serious consideration, the Latin word aquilo -onis (the north wind) might be regarded not only as
an offspring of the Gon-Bel-Gon basis, but it might also be seen as a "first cousin" of the
Serbian word kuljanje (Russ. хлынуть/hlinutь).

There is another problem to be elucidated: the Latin word aquilus (dark-colored, blackish). Now,
let us try to draw a parallel between English cloudy and Latin aquilus. The ancient man
obviously realized that the daily visibility was directly dependent on the quantity of clouds
accumulated in the sky. This is one of the most apparent examples how the force of nature
influenced the human thinking and its vocabulary. Finally, is it necessary to mention that the
English word black is also derived from the same Gon-Bel-Gon (or just Bel-Gon) basis from
which stemmed the above-mentioned Latin words, as wel as many similar IE words describing
clouds and the behavior of clouds. AS á-blacian or á-blácigan (to blacken; to be or look pale,
grow pale) could be compared to Serbian oblačno (cloudy) and ubledeti (to grow pale; Serb.
bled = Lat. pallidus /pale/). In some of my previous posts I explained the development of the
Serbo-Slavic word tama from the Gon-Bel-Gon basis [oblačno (cloudy) <= hoblagno =>
habljenje => tamljenje => tamno (dark, dusky)].

Latin aquila (eagle) is in fact the same as OE hafoc (hawk); the bird that seizes (grabs) its prey
with the strong claws; similar to other vultures (scavengers). It is interesting to mention that the
Greek word σκεπτομαι (to look about, look carefully; σκοπελος lookoutplace, peak, headland,
promontory, watch-tower; σκόπελον mound; cf. Latin cupula, cupa cask; caput head ) is related
to Greek υπαετος (eagle; hup-aetos => aetos) and the Serbian word očuvati (to watch over),
which is from its side in relation with the verb okupljati (gather, assemble; Eng. keep; Serb. o-
čuvati goveda "keep the cattle"). Now we are able to follow the historic development of the
English word "see" (AS skavvôn, Gr. σκoπέω, Ger. sehen/schauen) and its "unusual" relation to
the word "keep".

Vamos a hablar claro

Friday, 18. July 2008, 15:55:56

There are two words in Serbian with the meaning "begin to talk, speak out". One is pro-go-voriti
and the other is pro-z-boriti (Cz. pro-ho-vořit talk out, talk over). The Slavic prefix pro- is equal to
the English pro- as is found in words pro-trude (Serb. pro-turiti /bulge out/, pro-terati /push
through/; Lat. prodeo -ire /to advance, go forward; to project/; Serb. pro-dirati /get through,
penetrate/) or pro-gress, pro-nate*... In Serbian, prefixes pro- and pre- are shortened forms of
the adverb preko (beyond, across, over) and the verbs preći (go over, across) and proći (go
through, go across). The Serbian verb pre-govarati (negotiate; Russ. вести переговоры) clearly
shows that no negotiation is possible if there is nobody on the other side (Serb. preko /across,
over, vis-à-vis/).
The similar situation we have in case of the Serbian verbs pro-davati/prodati (to sell) and pre-
davati/predati (give over, give a lecture; cf. Serb. predanje /tradition/, pridika /lecture/; Ger.
predigen /to preach/, where the giving (davati; dati; preko /over/; also, predavati; predati /to give
over/; preko /over/ + davanje /giving/, Lat. datus) is a pattern, which is used in "creation" of
many "cross-over" words in Serbo-Slavic. Now, we can see that the Serbian words pridika
(lecture, preach; Serb. predanje /tradition/) and pritka/prečka (shaft, beam, cross-beam) are not
accidentally close to each other in phonetic sense (Cf. English bridge <=> preach).

At this place, it would be interesting to compare Latin converto (to turn round) and Serbian
obrtati (to turn round, convert; from ko-br-tljaj => ko-vrtljaj /turn, revolution/; i.e. kobrtljaj =>
obrtaj /orbit/). Beside obrtati/obrnuti (to turn around; convert), there are the Serbian verbs
obraćati se (to speak to, speak out, converse), obraćenik (a convert), obrtnik (craftsmen; related
to the Serbian verb vršiti, Eng. work, work-man). As we can see, Serbian obraćanje (appeal) is
"born" from the same source as Serbian pričanje (talking; Serb. opričati /to tell the story/ <=
obraćati (appeal) <= obrnuti (to turn around, to go to the other side). Finally, what to say about
the Serbian verb preobratiti (to turn, convert) or the noun preobraženje (conversion;
transfiguration, transformation; Serb. obraz* cheek)?

Now it becomes clear that Latin converto is akin to Serbian obrt (from hobrt => kovrt; all from
ko-blo-v-rndia => kolo-v-rndija; cf. Serb. za-vrteti to spin; kolo-vrat vortex, spinning-wheel). It
seems logical that Serbian kovrtljaj => obrtaj (orbit, revolution) is a metathesized kolovrat (from
Gon-Bel-Gon + Gon-Bel-Hor-Gon; i.e. kolo /wheel, round, dance/ + obrnuti /turn over, reverse,
rotate/). Serbian okolina (surrounding, environment; from h/oko-b-lo) could be equated to Greek
κύκλος (cycle).

The above analysis is helping us to understand the relation among Serbian oblak (cloud), Latin
nebula (Serb. nebo sky)and and English cloud (Ger. Wolke cloud). Namely, all these words are
derived from the same Gon-Bel-Gon basis (gnoblak => oblak; gnebula => nebula; ko(b)lut =>
kolut (pulley; circle; Russ. колач cake, cooky; колесо cart-
        /gloutos (buttocks). Greek gloutos (buttocks) is also derived from the same Gon-Bel-
Gon basis as Serbian dupe (buttocks; Russ. дупля hollow; Serb. duplja hollow) and šupak
(asshole, anus) and this is a strong evidence that English hollow/hole is akin to Serbian kolo
(wheel, circle), šupljina (hollow) and duplja (cavity).
As we could see, the ancient (primeval) Gon-Bel-Gon basis had been used vastly, for the
naming of different "round" objects (Serb. oblo round), beggining with oblak (cloud), zemlja
(earth), nebo (sky) etc. It entails that the first "thinking men" understood the whole world in a
form of circle/s and it seems they knew that space is "curved" and deprived of "straightness" in
all its segments. On one side there was h/oblina (roundness) and on the other was - šupljina
(hollow; also Serb. udubljenje, duplja /cavity/). Even the planet Earth was understood as a big
round object (Serb-Slavic zemlja, gemela, hum, homolje, gomila; Lat. cumulus => humus) with a
big hollow/circle in its inside - Eng. hell (hole, pit); Serb. raj (heaven; from krug /circle/ => kraj
/area/ => raj).

It is interesting to mention that Serbian šupljina (cavity, hollow; cf. Greek σπηλιά; Serb. špilja
cave) is essentially related to the other Serbian words: oblak (cloud), kaplja (drop), kapljanje
(dribble), oborina (precipitation, downfall). We will explain it later, and, at this moment, the
Serbian word oborina (precipitation) seems to be of crucial importance, especially for the
understanding of the ancient secondary Br-Gon ("opposite driving") basis. If we consider this
word more carefully we will see that it is an agglutinated form of the two separated words: h/oblo
(round) + kren-/kret- (movement, motion; cf. Serb. kretanje /moving, walking/). In fact, oborina is
h/oblo(h)rina; i.e. it is oblo (round) + kren- (motion), equal to the other Serbian words from the
same agglutinated (oblo-krug- /round-circle/; oblo kretanje "round circulation") form as obaranje
(turning down, overthrow), borenje (fighting; cf. Latin belligero -are to wage war).

Let us now go back to Slavic govor (speech) and compare it with the Spanish word hablar (to
speak, talk). According to the opinion of the modern etymology, it is considered that Spanish
hablar came from Latin fabulare. First, Latin fabulor (to talk) seems to be related to
bablus/balbutio (stammering; speak obscurely) and English babble, blab (Serb. blebetati; Cz.
blb, blblati, blábolit /babble/; Greek barbaros). Nevertheless, we can hardly say that Spanish
habla- is derived from babla- (b => v/f => h sound mutation; balbucear, bobear).

Spanish barbullar (babble away) is probably related to Serbian brbljanje (babble; Gr. βάρβᾰ

                        (to prattle, babble) might be of an imitative origin, similar to the English
word 'bleat' (Serb. blejati, La                      ), but if we compare the Sanskrit words lapana
(speaking, talking) and lapi/ta (chatter, hum) with the Serbian lupati (throb, palpitate, talk
nonsense), we shall see that all the above-mentioned words are derived from the reduplicated
ur-syllable Bel.

Taking in a serious consideration the Latin word labrum (lip; edge , rim) and Serbian labrnja (lip;
v. laprdati babble), the history of the words 'hablar' (to speak) and 'govor' (speech, talking) is
getting more and more transparent. Se
(labyrinth, maze) and Serbian lavirati (hesitate, go round , prevaricate); from lavrndija <= ko-lo-
vrat, ko-lo-vrndija (spinning-wheel) - all from the H/Oblo-Obrtanje "round rotation" or "opposite
driving". As we explaind above, Serbian 'obrtanje' (rotation, turning, spin, whirl; Serb. obrtati =>
vrteti) is a compound word consisting of "oblo" (round) + kretanje (movement); i.e. oblo-kret =>
pokret (move) => okret (turn). It implies that the Serbian words 'kolo-vrat' and 'kolo-vrndija'
(spinning-wheel) are compounding of h/oblo (round) + h/oblo-kret (turning, rotation, orbit).

It would be interesting to notice that Latin 'laboro' has two different meanings, 'to glide, flow' and
'work, toil', while 'labo' means 'to totter , waver, be about to fall'. In first case, labor (labi lapsus)
corresponds to OHG slifan (to glide, slide) and Serbian slivanje (pour out, confluence, flooding).
On the other hand, Latin labor (labos -oris) is an apheresis of conlabor -labi -lapsus (collapse). It
means that both words are closely related and they maybe compared to the Serbian noun
kolebanje (vacillation, oscillation, hesitation), which originally sprang (metathesis) from
kobeljanje (rolling about, hobbling) and which originally pointed to the movement of the clouds
(Serb. oblak; from Gnoblak => Hoblak).

Finally, we are now able to understand that Spaniish hablar (to speak, talk; communicate; chat,
gab) and Serbo-Slavic govor (speach, talking) are related to eachother, and they present a kind
of constant interpersonal communication (Serb. saobraćanje; from sa-hobl-hragne "with-round-
circulation"; i.e. from the agllutinated primal form Gon-Bel-Hor-Gon). Serbian priča (story), as
well as English preach, is nothing but a communication (Serb. obraćati se, obraćanje /appel,
conversation, apostrophe/) and it shows that Serbian words predanje (saga, preach Ger.
predigen), obraćanje (communication; from h-ob(l)-(h)ra-ga-gne) and govorenje (speach; from
hov(l)o-(h)re-gne <= hob(l)o-(h)re-gne <= Gon-Bel-Hor-Gon) belong to the words with the same
A Division of the Devoid Man

Monday, 14. July 2008, 22:07:25

What am I supposed to be dealing over? You have a theory. Prove it. You say that the
mainstream theory is wrong. Prove it. Otherwise don't expect to be believed.

Harlan Mesinger

No, I've never said that the "mainstream" theory was wrong. I just said that reconstruction of the
IE roots is a simple "cross section" of the contemporary condition/form of IE languages.

For instance, according to modern linguistics, the PIE root *dheub- is a basis for words as deep
(Serb. dubina), dive (Serb. daviti choke) and *dial- was a "source" of deal (Ger. Teil, Serb. deo).
In addition, it is supposed that Latin divido is a compound word (dis + vido). Would it not be
more logical to say that divido is related to deviate (de + via), similar to serbian od-vajati, od-
vojiti (separate) or od-voditi (take away; Serb. od- = Lat. de- "off"; cf. Eng. devoid).

If we know that divide is "making two of one" it seems illogical that the prefix dis- is used in the
word di-vido, di-videre. What is then the meaning of "-videre" in this case? How should we treat
the Latin word diplasios (duplicate), also as dis + plasio?

Would it not be more resonable if we concluded that Latin divido had something to do with the
number "two"? For god sake, don't you see that Latin dis- is in fact the Latin number duo/s (to
double, divided into two parts). Compare English doubt (from Latin dubito) and Serbian dvojba
(doubt), dvojiti (separate into two sides); Serb. dvojbljenje => dvojenje = Ger. Zweifel <= Goth.
tweifljan). In Serbian all is clear: number dva comes from the verb odvaliti/odvajati (separate)
and this one is from dubljenje (deepening), obviously related to the woodworking (dubiti deepen
=> deljati deljati (carve the wood, chisel) => delati (work); i.e. dubljenje deepening =>
udubljuvanje bulging inward => odvaljivanje breaking off => odvajanje separation).

As a reverse process, dubljenje (deepening) is understood as debljanje (thickening); udvajanje
(making one of two; debljanje) <=> odvajanje (making two of one; deljenje dealing).

I made a hyphenation mistake because Serbian odvajati (separate) is a prefixed vord
dvojiti/dvajati (to double; Serb. dvojenje from dvojbljenje); it means it should be od-dvajati. There
are thousands and thousands of word that originated from the Gon-Bel-Gon basis. It seems it
would be interesting to mention here the Serbo-Slavic words 'daljina' (distance; Cz. dálka,
vzdálenost; Russ. дальность, даль) and 'dužina' (length; Russ. длина, долгота; Cz.
vzdálenost, délka). The Serbian noun daljina (length) is related to dolina (valley, dell) and
dubina (deepness; from dubljina, becaus dolina is a long depression in the surface of the land
that usually contains a river).

Please, remember that "river" (and water in general) has a key role in the evolution of the big
part of Belgonic words.

Now compare Slavic dlugina (length) and Germanic *lang (long) and, for instance, the English
lungs and Russian лѐгкие; from легкий/legkiy light, easy; Ger. Lunge, Serbian lagan light, not
heavy) to see that both words are derived from the same basis: d-lugina = lang. Is there any
connection among words like lung, long and light? Yes, there is! The lungs are light, spongy,
and they float in water. In Serbian lungs are called pluća, and it is related to Latin pulmo -nis
and Gre                            ; Eng. blow, Serb puhnuti (from pulhnuti) and plin (gas; Serb.
plinuti gush, plima tide), all derived from Bel-Gon basis, (Slavic polniti, polno full; Cz. pln; Serb.
pun; from obilno abundant, bulky, akin to Slavic oblak cloud). Probably, you are going to ask,
what light (easy) has to do with long. Of course it has, because we are taking a horizontal (line)
position when we are lying down to rest, and resting (lying, Ger. liegen, Serb. leganje) is the
way to alleviate (re-lieve, to lighten) our strained muscles.

I just wanted to show you how fruitful the ur-basis Gon-Bel-Gon was. The ancient man
understood that any movement towards the horizon is the movement into a kind of deepnes.
Serbian verbs odlaženje (leave, departure) and dolaženje (coming, arrival) are akin with the
verbs odlinuti (pour out, flow out, defuse) and dolinuti (pour in, flow in, infuse, to add liquid;
Serb. talas wave). There is the Serbian word taljige (a primitive cart) and the verb taljigati (work
hardly, go to and fro), from which the other Serbian verb sprang out - tegliti (tug, pull hard;
metathesis of taljigati), težina (weight), teg (weight), tegovi (set of weights), staklo (glass; from
tegljenje pulling, stretching; is-tegljen (outstretched, extended)...

Let's go back to Slavic človek/čovek (man, human being) and in Polish "man" is also known as
chlop (Cz. chlap guy, lad; Slov. hlapec boy). As you see, sometimes the sound changes are so
"weird" that you can hardly understand how and why it happened that way. For instance, the
word in Serbian, which suits to the above mentioned words for man/boy in other Slavic
languages, is klipan. How we can settle down the unusual relation among the Slavic words as
chlop (man), chlap (guy, lad), klipan (obnoxious boy, nuisance)? The common "denominator" in
this case is the Slavic word glava (head; Russ. galava, Cz. hlava; Pol. głowa) and
lobanja/lubanja (skull; from globanja, similar to Latin globus; Serb. oklop armou
                                           to cover).

Harlan, it seems you are not interested or, even better, you are against any possibility that my
HSF theory could potentially be correct. Instead of following my explanation logically, you are
asking me to establish new phonetic rules in order to make it "acceptable" and "plausible". Ger.
Haufen/Himmel, Slav. oblak/nebo/gomila, Lat. nebula/cumulus and Eng. Heaven/heap are the
words with a very clear mutual kinship. I wonder, that you are not able to understand that similar
changes can't be classified or proved by some regularly seen processes because such
muations resulted as an accidental sound shift. For instance, Haufen is a counterpart word of
Eng. heap while Hafen (harbor, havens) became haven in English. How it happened that
German haufen became English heap (f=>p) and haben turn to be have (b=>v)? Or more
surprizing, why Ger. Himmel is more close to Lat. cumulus and Serbo-Slavic gomila (heap) than
to Eng. heaven?

Slavic čovek/človek is in fact named in accordance with its most prominent part of the body -
glava/galava (head), from glavaš, glavonja, glavni (chief; Gr. επικεφαλής, Serb. poglavica; Sp.
cabeza head, headmaster, chief; AS hafela => Ger. Kopf/Haupt <= AS heáfod => Eng. head;
ON hofud; Dan. hoved head). Obviously, AS hafela is very near to Greek κεφαλή/kefale and as
you can see in all IE languages (Skt. kapāla head; kulapatiḥ the head of a family; Lat. caput
/head, leader/) the name of cranium corresponds to the word "leader/chief". All the above words
are derived fom the Gon-Bel-Gon basis - whose primary meaning was "roundness" or " round
heap" (oblak, cloud).
In this case the basis is Gon-Bel-Gon and if you start from it you will be able to follow any
possible word mutation or transformation. Russian glubina (deepness) is derived from
g(n)ubli(g)na => gublina => glubina (metathesis); Czech hlubina; Serbian dubina deepness,
dialectal also dubljina) sprang from g(n)ubli(g)na => gublina => dublina (g => d change). What
to say about Irish Gaelic domhainn and Welsh dwfn? Irish Gaelic kept the final Gon syllable
g(n)ubligna = dumbihna (nasalization) => dumhainn or Welsh dwfn [similar to Serbian duvanje
(blow); Gr. Typhon], from g(n)ubel(g)on => guveln => dwfn (of course some transitional sound
forms were possible, like velar to dental change via palatal.

Simply, the root *dheub- cannot explain the "unusual" differences among Ser. dubina, Russian
glubina and Czech hlubina (deepness); dentals are always derivatives of velars and it means
that the root *dheub- is wrong and it might possible be *heub- or *gheub... if my Gon-Bel-Gon
basis is still unacceptable for you. :-)

AS you can see, these sound changes are rather unique and it is impossible to establish a
certain linguistics rules as a pattern of regular sound mutations. There are many alike examples.
Let's just mention the Irish neul, Welsh niwl, Latin nebula, Ger. Nebel, Slav. nebo (sky), Skt.
nabhas etc.; all from the same Gon-Bel-Gon basis as above dubina (deepness).

What is the meaning of 'videre" in "dis- videre"? I was right when I said that divide might be
related to devoid and deviate (Serb. od-voðenje /taking away/, od-vajanje (separation,
deviation), od-vaditi (to remove, empty), but I had a problem to present all this complicated
matter to your simple-minded brain. German zweiteilig is Serbian dvodelno (bipartite); and Ger.
teilen is the same as Latin divido; It means that Ger. teilen is equal to Serb. deljenje and English
deal (Ger. Teil, Slav. del, Eng. deal). The final conclusion imposes itself: divide and deal are the
words that were derived from the same basis! Compare dubito and divido with the Serbian
words dvojiti (to double), dvojenje (doubling), dvojba (doubt) and you will maybe understand that
these two Latin words (dubito, divido) sprang out from the same source.

What's happened here? According to my HSF the sound /l/ must always be accompanied by /b/
and /b/ originally was the first one in "queue" (BL). Slavic prepositions od- and do- are still
containing the hidden meaning "two" in their essence. The same case is with Latin di-, dis- or
Eng. out- and to-. On the other side are the words as English both (two things or people
together), Slavic oba (both; Serb. obojica, obadva), Latin bi-, bis-, ambi-. The Serbian pronoun
obadva could be translated in English as both-two (oba-dva = Lat. ambi-duo; the Serbian verb
odvijati has it's counterpart word in English "wind out" (i.e. out-wind; Ger. aus-winden), Serbian
od-vod is German aus- weg. Exodus = Serb. Ishod

I hope, now you are able to comprehend the mere essence of being and nothingness. The
sense of "being" and the verb "to be" is to be something other what is divided from the whole.
Doesn't matter if you use "di-" (two) or "bi-" (two, the other, both) the number "two" is always
present either in a clear or hidden form. In order to "exist" (to be) any being demands to be
either divided (deviated) from the other being or devoid from nothingness. The whole cosmos is
arranged in pairs.

  1 comment

A Wondering Winter Wandering

Monday, 14. July 2008, 21:17:30

Serbian vetro-pir is a compound word combined of vetar (wind) + pirenje (blowing) and means
almost the same as English wanderer, roamer. It might be interesting to mention that English
wind appears to be "akin" to Slavic voda (water; Lith. vanduo) while water sounds almost the
same as Slavic vetar (wind). nevertheless, there is Serbian word for a big water, "vodurina"
(wherefrom the aphaeretic name of the river Drina) - wich is similar to another Serbian word -
"vetrina" (a strong wind).

In Serbian, vetar (wind) is also known as vihor (vind) and it clearly shows that these words
(vetar, vihor) were derived from the Bel-Hor basis. At the same time, Bel-Hor-Gon basis gave
the Serbian words pokretanje (movement, activation), pokrenuti (start, launch, move forward),
obrtanje (rotation, turnover, twist, turning, orbit), vrteti (rotate). According to these words, we can
see that similar words in IE languages are compounded of the words "oblo" (oval, round) +
"kretanje" (cruising, running; from hring or krug circle). It means that Serbian "pokret" (move) is
a contraction of the form "oblo- kret" (Eng. oval-run).
In the same way in which Serbian vetar (wind) has its sibling-word vihor (wind, stormy wind),
there are the Serbian words vlaga (moist, dump) and the adjective voden (wet; wetted). Serbian
"voden" (wet) souns very close to English "wooden" and it is interesting to mention, because the
both words (Serb. voda water; Eng. wood) are derived from the primeval Bel-Gon basis (cf. Ger.
Wald wood). English wood (Wald) probably designated a boundary in a similar way as Serbian
taraba (fence) is related to drvo/derevo and Russ. деревня/đerevna (village); either Serbian
grana (branch) to ograda (fence) and građenje (building). OE byldan (build) is a counterpart
word to the Serbian verb oblati (treat somthing; especially the wood), oblik (figure, form, shape),
uobličiti (make the final form).

The round form is the reason why the round stick is called "oblica" in Serbian (rod; Ger. Balken
beam, timber) or greda (beam, girder; cf. English gird, girdle and Serb. ograda fence, greda
beam). If you compare German Balken (beam) and Wolken (cloud) with the Serbian words
oblica (beam) and oblak (cloud) you will be able to grasp why all these words used the same
primal source - Bel-Gon. Of. course, in this case Serbian voda/vlaga (water, moist) is not
associated to the round form (like oblica, Balken beam) but with the round movement: Serbian
obilaženje (going round) and oblaganje (coating, application = akin to Serb. oblikovati to form,
design, shape; upletanje entwining, oblagati coat). Now we know that oblikovati, uobličiti or
oblaganje is the same as English build-ing.

Serbian polaženje (start) is equal to polinuti (to splash the water) and it shows that Serbian word
pogon (drive; from Bel-Gon basis) is related to oblak (cloud = the source of water and moist)
and that it comes as an association to the movement of water.

Finally, we can conclude that all the words like vetar (wind), wind, water, winter, weather, vedro
(nice weather), voda (water), vidra (otter; an aquatic animal), wander etc. are derived from o-
blo-kret or o-blo-gon (o-val-run belligero Bel-Hor-Gon; or o-val-go-n pulsus Bel- Gon)
agglutinated form.

The Cybalist Guru&#39;s Ignorance

Monday, 7. July 2008, 23:14:17
This guy Piotr is the leading linguistic Cyba-cave "expert" among the dickheads like Brainy and
Word-and-Game. In reality, Piotr Gasiorowski is a shame for the linguistic science and his
"teaching" and "lectures" are nothing but a rubbish/bullshiting that must be cleaned up as soon
as possible.

Re: [tied] Slavic placenames

19-01-04 12:32, andelkod wrote: Amateur question regarding slavic root *lub or *lob meaning
skull, cranium (lubanja, lobanja) and from the same root also 'lubenica' (watermellon) .

The meaning can be even an exposed and visible hill. So, placenames like Lubenik, Lubenice,
Lubnica, Lubenka, Lubyanka, and even Ljubljana and Ljubelj, I suspect, can be connected with
this root (locations with exposed and visible hill). Placenames like Lomnica could also be result
of development from Lobnica and Lovnik from Lobnik. Am I wrong?


You're confusing several different etymological bases, such as *lUbU ~ *lUbI 'head, skull', *lubU
'bast, strip of wood or bark', *ljubiti 'love', and *lomiti 'break'. No connections, just similarity.



I found your above post by chance (Google) and I must admit that I was deeply disappointed
when reading those lines of your total ignorance.

Is it possible that you are unable to grasp that all the above words are derived from the primeval
Gon-Bel-Gon basis (Serbo-Slavic oblo round; Russ. около, об; Cz. oble; Pol. pełny; Slavic *pln;
Serb. obilan => p/o/ln => pun full). Can you not see that Slavic *lob is related to Latin globus
and Serb. oblina (roundness; from h/oblina; cf. Pol. powłoka, Serb.. obloga coat, covering);
metathesis - oblog (cover, coating) => oklop (armor, shield, shell, mail). Do you know why the
ball is named piłka in Polish and why and how is it related to Serbian lopta (ball) and lubenica
(watermelon) ?

Slavic verb ljubiti (kiss, love; from oblo-biti => obli-vati suffuse => ob-ljubiti love, kiss,
intercourse; cf. copulate, coupled) is also derived from the words like oblak (cloud), oblina
(roundness) and obloga (coating, covering); i.e. from the above mentioned ur-basis (Gon-Bel-
Gon) . Unusual, is it not? Love, globe, lobanja (skull), lubenica (watermelon) , lomiti (break) - all
is born from the same Gon- Bel-Gon "womb"!

Would you like me to tell you how it happened... precisely?
Well -- yes.

We've been asking you to do that for months if not years, and you never have done yet.

Peter Daniels

I hope now you are able to understand that all the Serbian words on this graphic are derived
from the Gon-Bel-Gon (or Bel-Gon) ur-basis. It starts from the heaven (nebo) and cloud (oblak)
via kaplja (drop) to coast (obala), vlaga (vetness) and voda (water). All is influenced by the
round form of the sun (oblo, oblina round). Similar is in other IE languages.

I think you are going to be surprised if I say that English cloud and clod are the words closely
related to Ger. Wolke and Serbian oblak (cloud; cf. Serb. kolut a round piece of something,
hoop; klada stump, lumber).

English cloud is related to Serbo-Slavic oblak (cloud) in the same way as hill is related to
Homolje (gomila, cumulus, heap; hlum. hum) or even glava/glavica (head, the top of a hill;
Slavic galava is metathe                                     ; Lat. globo = Serb. h/oblo). Slavic
lubanja (from hlobanja => globanja => glava) is in fact the same word as Latin globus. Hence
you can see that Slavic lubenica (watermelon) was named like that in accordance with its round
form {cf. Slavic jablaka (apple) from h/oblo (round), Serb. kruška (pear), from krug (circle)}.
You probably know that bath or spa is balneum in Latin and in Serbian it is banja. The Serbian
verb banjati means "to bath, bathe" and it is closely related to the Serbian words oblak and
kapljanje (dribble); oblak came from gnoblak => goblak => oblak and kaplja (drop) from gnabla
= gabla; cf. Serb. obliti suffuse; h/obliti => kapljati (to drip). Serbian banja (bath) and banjanje
(bathing) is coming from the verb kupanje, i.e. from the above g/oblak (cloud) and kapljanje

If we add to the above the Serbian verb ovlažiti (from vlaga vetness; ovlažen wet; from
g/oblagen) we are going to understand why the whole "aquatic" chain of words is related in
Serbian: oblak (cloud), kaplja (drop), kupanje (bathe), ovlažiti (to wet; vlaga wetness). Finally,
there is relatedness between Slavic voda and Latin aqua through the Serbian verbs okupati
(bathe) and ukuvati (boil). Of course, there we can make other comparisons as among the
words like Serbian okovati (to fetter, shackle), uhvatiti (catch) and Latin occupo -are (occupy),
habeo (have), capio and a whole bunch of words I was talking about in one of my earlier posts.

The English word love is a counterpart to Serbian ljubav (love) and the Serbian verb ljubiti (to
kiss, love). In this case (as I have shown in my graphic), ljubiti is aphereses of obljubiti
(copulate; as you see "copulate/coupling" also comes from Gon-Bel-Gon basis; Serb. oblegnuti
copulate, from h/oble-gnuti). Not accidentally, the Serbian verbs obljubiti and oblegnuti (both
with the meaning "copulate") are very close phonetically to the other Serbian verbs:
oblivati/oblinuti (suffuse, flood) ond oblagati (to coat, cover). Beside obljubiti, there is the
Serbian verb oblepiti (to stick around, to glue), from which the Slavic *lubU (strip of wood or
bark; Serb. oljupina); cf. Serb. pri-ljubiti (stick together), pri-lepiti (to glue together). Bark of tree
is a protective covering of the woody stems and it is "glued" (Serb. lepiti to glue) to the trunk.
We need no big brain to grasp why ljubiti (kiss) is almost the same as lepiti (glue) and both are
close to uljubiti (to kiss inward) and ulubiti (bulge inward). Later on, ulubiti (bulge inward)
became ulomiti (to break; /b/ to /m/ sound change) or lomiti (break).
You haven't presented any argument to counter.

You haven't "tried to demonstrate" a damn thing. All you do is "hope we are able to understand,"
without providing any hint of what there is to understand.

Peter Daniels
All the words I mentioned here are derived from the agglutinated GO(N)BELGON form:

OBLINA (roundness; from G(N)OBLIGNA).
OBLAK (cloud; from GNOBLAK, Ger. WOLKEN),
KUPANJE (bath; from G(N)UBLANJE; Serb. BANJA spa; Lat. BALNEUM),
OVLAŽEN (wet; from (G)OBLAGEN),
OBLINUTI (flood, suffuse; from GO(N)BLIGNUTI; Lat. INLUVIES from GINBLUVIEG = Serb.

What else can I do if you are unable to comprehend what I am talking about? This is not too
complicated to understand. Perhaps, you are not familiar with some of the Slavic languages; if
so, this may be a "pueblo español" for you.
First, show how each of those "from"s is derived (regularly) from "BO(N)BELGON" (whatever
that is); then show how each of your words is derived (regularly) from those "from"s.

Peter Daniels

Serb. OBLINA (roundness) from GNOBLINA by apheresis; cf. Eng, KNOB (a circular rounded
projection or protuberance), KNOLL (hill-top), Old. Norse KNYFILL, Ger. GIPFEL, KOPF,

OBLAK (cloud) from GNOBLAK (apheresis) akin to Serbian OBLOG, OBLOGA (coat, covering);
OBLEKA (cloth) cf. Latin NUBO (to cover, veil), NEBULA (cloud).

In addition you can see that Serb. KAPLJA originated from GNOBLAK, OBLAK (cloud), NEBO
(sky); hence Serb. adj. NAVLAŽEN (soaked, wet; from GNABLAGEN, omission of the initial /g/,
/b/ to /v/ sound change in the second syllable, palatalisation /g/ to /ž/, third syllable); cf.
HUMIDUS, UVIDUS (humid, vet).

Lat. humidus is related to Serb. umiti (to wash, lave); Lat. uvidus is related to humidus (umidus),
do you no why and how? All these words are derived from the Gon-Bel-Gon basis or the
H/obligon agglutination: Serb. obli-gnuti => oblinuti (suffuse, flood) => obliti (suffuse) => oMbliti
(nasalisation) => umiti (wash, lave).

Above change is regular and there are many similar examples (haben = imati; oblak =Himmel
etc.). The rule you are asking for is about to be written; I am working on it.

If you have understand the above explanation we may continue our "experiment" with more
difficult examples.

Not accidentally, there are Serbian words NA-OBLAČEN (cloudy), akin to NAVLAŽEN (wet,
soaked); Serb. OBLAK (cloud) => VLAGA (wetness); it means that KAPLJA (drop) is

No, sometimes two words that you think are related, really *are* related. A problem is that there
is nothing in your approach that distinguishes those cases from the cases where your
relationship claims are wrong, because your approach is insufficient to make that determination.
Let's put it this way: Not one of your arguments I've ever seen has looked anything like:

German "ei" ~ Dutch "ee" ~ English "o"

or this:

Latin initial "pl", "cl", "fl" > Spanish initial "ll", Portuguese initial "ch"

An explanation of this latter sound correspondence that resembles your usual contributions
would read like:

'See if you are able to grasp that Spanish "llover" is related to Portuguese "chover". Compare
Latin "labium" ("lip") to English "chapstick" (substance that's spread on the lips). Also compare
"chapstick" with "spit" (thing that comes between the lips), "chin", "cheek" and "llorar" (crying,
thing that comes out of the eyes).'

The conclusion would be true, but this reasoning wouldn't lead to it. It's a mess, and it's the way
all your rambling "demonstrations" work.

Harlan Mesinger

It is not difficult to see the correspondences among the same branch of languages. What are we
going to do with Slavic or Romance words? German "ei" ~ Dutch "ee" ~ English "o"eins/een/one
= Latin unus; Russian один; Greek ένας; Serb. jedan; Slovene eden; Cz. jedno;

It is more than obvious that all these words were derived from the same source. Tell me, what
source was it? For instance, would you say that Serbian jedan and German jeden -r (any;
jedenfalls anyway) could be related to Serbian jedan, jedno (the same) and jednako (equal).
What do you expect me to do if the phonetic changes were so unpredictable as they were in this
case; German jeden corresponds to OE 'ænig' or English 'any' (anyone). Among the common
people in Serbia even today we can here the words "jenak" (the same, of the same quality;
jednak) and 'jenom' (to sombody); hence the Serbian pronouns 'onaj' (that one), 'neko/neki'
(someone, anyone). After this small comparison, the conclusion is inevitable: all the pronouns
(except the second person singular and plural) in Serbian are related to the number one (jedan).
Similar is in all the other IE languages.

zwei/twee/two = Serb. dva, Lat. duo; similar in other IE languages.

Have you ever asked yourself why the German "divide" sounds Teilung and not Zeilung (Zeile
row, line)? Divide is related to Serbian odvojiti (separate; odvajati) while German Teilung is akin
to Serbia 'deljenje' (division, separation; Ger. Teil part = Serb. deo; from del, deliti divide). Now
we can see (I hope you are not so blind) that English divide (Lat. divido -videre), German teilen
and Serbian deljenje/odvajanje are the words derived from the same ur-basis. In addition, there
is the English word double (Lat. duplus), which is also in an accordance with the all above
mentioned "divisible" words. The number 'two' followed the "breaking off" (Serbian odvaliti break
off => odvojiti separate) and the opposite, "thickening" (Serb. debljanje /thickening/ => dobijanje
/acquiring/ => dvojenje / doubling/) logic.

OK if you like the games. Let mi ask you, why German Haufen is phonetically closer to Heaven
than to Heap, while Himmel could be rather compared to Cumulus than to Heaven?

As you can see, nothing to do with Serbian... pure Germanic words, but I bet you cannot explain
the above "enigma". Are you going to say that the above words are not derived from the same
Because things don't operate phonetically in the nice, neat patterns you would like them to. Just
as just as the Dutch word "water", the corresponding French word, "eau", and the corresponding
Irish word, "uisge", don't sound anything like each other--yet this is a case where we know
beyond the shadow of a doubt that they have the same origin. If you don't understand the facts,
then you are in no position to be creating theories, or at least not in expecting anyone to believe
anything you say.

Harlan Mesinger

What do you mean? Eau-de-vie? Water of life qalqued as uisge beatha or aqua-vita? Of course,
as translations these words are related.
You are the one who is unable to understand that aqua and water are in fact akin to eachother.
On the other side, Gaelic uisce might_be the same word as Rusian vodka. In reality, aqua is
derived from the Gon- Bel-Gon basis and voda and wetness from Bel-Gon. Serb

                      -   -
                                                                    ; there is a big secret why the
Serbian verbs 'uhvatiti' (to catch, seize, fetch; hvat hold) and 'okovati' (fetter) are phonetically
almost the same as Latin 'aquatio' (a fetching of water) and why the English word 'fetter' sounds
almost the same as 'water' (see the etymology of the word fetch itself).

It means that you have an opinion that *aqua- and *ved- are the roots who have the same
ancestor and that ancestor is *aquved-? If so, you might be partially right. Serbian words like
ukapati (to seep in, ooze) and ukuvati (to boil down). The first word (ukapati) is related to oblak
{g(n)oblak} and kapljanje {from g(n)abljanje oozing}. The second one (ukuvati) comes from the
Serbian verb kobeljati (to roll about, hobble); hence kuveljati and kuvati (whirl, simmer). It is
unnecessary to add that Kobeljanje (hobbling) is related to Okupljanje (assembling) and both
words are akin to Gomilanje (heaping up) the ancient man had noticed when he looked the
heavy Cumulus heaping up in the sky.

I found the Scottish word whisker (a breezy wind) This word
appears to be related to whisk (beat, whip, a quick, sharp stroke, a swift (sweeping) movement;
also wisk, wysk and quhisk). It could be related to Serbian vihor (a strong wind) while the
Serbian word udar (beat, sharp stroke; Serb. udar vetra /the blow of the wind/) is in relation to
both - to vetar (vind) and to voda (water; Serbian vodurina /a big water/ => udaranje /beating,
strike, pounding/).

It seems that MacBain was right with his *ud-s-kio- root where the sound /s/ might have had a
"prosthetic" role.
Actually, there are two unrelated IE roots for water. Latin "aqua" (whence French "eau") derives
from one of them; Germanic "water" and Gaelic "uisge" are from the other.

Christian Weisgerber
Don’t take Harlan's words too seriously in this case. He is just trying to be witty.

Here is what MacBain is saying about uisce: {...Irish uisge, Old Irish uisce, usce: *ud-s-kio, root
ud, ved; Greek @Gu@`/dwr, @Gu@`dos; English water, etc.; Sanskrit udán; further Latin unda,
wave. Stokes suggests the possibility of uisge being for *uskio-, and allied to English wash....}

It is the reason why I said that uisce _might be_ related to Russin vodka (diminutive of voda;
Serb. vodica). Of course, it is not my "invention"; some serious scientists have also been
mentioning it.

There are also Serbian vords like voša (hypocoristically), Slavic surname Vodenski, Vodeski,
village Vodensko in Macedonia (Voden in Greek), river Vodenska in Bulgaria.

I think that a certain musical band coined the word VODSKI, by combining VOTKA and

There are a lot of Slavic place names Vodice; above mentioned Slavic town in Greece - Voden
or Vodica - was renamed Έδεσσα in Greek.

A German historian Ulrich Wilcken concluded that the name Edessa was of Illyrian origin
despite the clear fact that Edessa was a Greek garbled "translation" of the Slavic P.N. Vodica
(Voda water). Of course, you will find an incorrect explanation about the origin of the name of
that ancient town in the official history. Namely, the name EDESSA means nothing in Greek,
while Serbo-Slavic VODENA or VODICA (VODENSKO) is the logical name for the town, which
is full of water resources and waterfalls, located in the mere centre of the city .

The problem is, if the modern science accepted the above undeniable facts, the whole history of
the Balkan must have been reexamined and rewritten. Hence, if the name Edessa was a
mutilated Slavic name Vodica (and it was like that undoubtedly), it would inevitably entail that
Slavs were natives of the Balkan long before the Christian era.
Smoke Fuming out of Candle

Saturday, 5. July 2008, 17:12:38

Cresset (icon lamp, censer) is called kandilo (candle) in Serbian (Czech kandela censer;
Slovene kadilec smoker, kadilnica censer, kadilo incense). On the other hand, the similar word
in Czech (kadidlo) means incense. All seems to be tumbled here, because incense is tamjan in
Serbian [obviously related to Slavic dim (smoke)]. In Russian, incense is фимиам/fimiam, again
related to Slavic dim (Russ. дым/dim smoke, туман/tuman fog, mist; d => f sound change), but,
also very close to Latin fumo -are (to smoke), fumus, -i, -um (smoke).

In addition, there are the Serbian verbs 'kaditi' and 'čaditi' (both with the meaning "to smoke"),
possibly derived from the noun kandilo (censer), and Slovene kajenje (smoking, smoke), a
variant of kaditi (to smoke, fume). At the same time, there is Serbian čađ (soot) and the verb
čaditi (to soot; Slovak za-čadiť to soot). This "čaditi", i.e. "za-čaditi" (to fill a space with soot)
might be related to Serbian "za-gaditi" (to polute) and "okužiti" (taint, contaminate). Hence, it
seems, there are the werbs in Serbian (Slovenian) with the opposite meanings, first "kaditi" (to
clear the space/room with the holy incense/smoke, dimljenje /smoking/ => tamjan /incense/) and
on the other side, "gaditi" (abhor, make something loathsome), ogaditi, okužiti, za-gaditi (make
impure, contaminate; Slovene okužiti taint; cf. Serbo-Slovene 'kuga' plague, pestilence).

Now we can understand the history of the Serbian word kazna (punishment; from
ogađeno/okuženo tainted, contaminated; Slovene kazen punishment; kaznovati punish; Russ.
наказать/na-kazat; cf. Dostoyevsky's novel: Преступление и наказание/Prestuplyenie i na-
kazanyiye; Crime and Punishment).

It seems that all the above words related to censer (kandilo; Serb. kandisati to smell) appeared
from the reduplicated Gon ur-syllable (Gon-Gon; cf. Serbian gonjenje chasing. Essentially,
Serbian kazna (punishment) is the same as gonjenje (persecution, pursuit, prosecution or
chase; cf. Russ. гонение; Cz. honit chase; Slovene ganjati chase). The opposite word to Serb.
goniti is the verb 'kidnuti' (break out, run away; 'kidanje' breaking; 'ukidanje' abolishment; Russ.
выход), obviously related to other words as hod (walk), ići (go, walking; Russ. ходить, Cz.

If the above analisis is correct, what are we going to do with the PIE root *kand- (glow, shine)? It
appears to be logical that kandilo (candle, censer) originated from the Slavic word
kađenje/čađenje (fuming; Slovene kadilnica = Serb. kandilica/kadionica). We should not exclude
a possibility that Serbian kandilo (kandilica) is directly related to Slavic dim (smoke, dimljenje
smoking). Namly, kandilo could be dimilo (a smoke device, smoke machine); za-dimljeno, na-
dimljeno (smoked). The both Serbian prepositions za- and na- are derived from the Gon ur-
syllable and they have almost the same role in Serbian as the con- (together, with) preposition
has in Latin. Maybe, the Serbian place name Gadimlje is a solution of this "smoke-fumigating"

Had the Serbian kandilo really been derived from "h/odimljen" (smoked) it would then have
implied that the Serbian adjective 'škodljiv' (harmful; from zgadljiv abominable, probably from z-
ga-dimljiv) is also related to Slavic dim (smoke); as we see, English odious is very close to
Serbian gadan (odious; OE hatian, hate, Goth. hatjan). Of course, it is additionally confusing to
have two (or even more) possible sources of the word kandilo /candle/) and all of them being
quite logical and acceptable. In order to try to solve this problem, we must know the history of
the Slavic words as dim, tamno and dubina.

In addition, if we are able to grasp that Slavic words dubina (deepness; Russ, glubina), debljina
(fatness), tama (darkness) and dim (smoke) are all derived from Gon-Bel-Gon ur-basis (Slavic
oblak cloud, Lithuanian debesis) we will be able to understand the history of other words, in
different IE languages, which are also derived from the above-mentioned Gon-Bel-Gon basis.
For instance, English clew (OE cleowen) is genetically related to Serbian kluvak (ball of thread
or yarn); i.e. to klupko or klobuk (a compact spherical mass); hence Latin globus and Serb. lopta
(ball; from k-lopta). The Serbian word klobuk has almost the same meaning as Slavic oblak
(cloud; from G(n)-Oblak => Gobluk => Klobuk). When clouds cover the sun the less light is
reaching the Earth surfice and it is getting darker (Serb. tamnjenje from tamljenje/hanbljenje; i.e.
from h/oblaganje or accumulation; Serb. tamnjenje is in fact "fattening of the clouds"(Serb.
debljanje oblaka); Lith. debesis). Now, I hope, we are able to realize why the Serbian words
oblak (cloud), debljanje (fattening), tamljenje, tama (dark, darkness) and dim (smoke) are
closely related.
Russian курильница/kurilynica (censer; also кадильница) is clearly related to the Slavic verb
goreti (burn; Russ. гореть/garyetь; Gr. θερμός; cf. Lat. garaiņi vapor, izgarot vaporize; Serb.
izgoreti burn down; Cz. vy-hořívání burnup). The above-mentioned Russian kurilynica (censer)
is the same as the Serbian gorionik or gorionica (combustion chamber). If we compare the
Serbian word gorivo (fuel; Russ. горючее) and the above Russian kurilynica and Serbian
gorionica we will see an interesting reduction inside the primeval BL cluster; i.e. the closest form
to the Hor-Bel ur-basis (from which the above Russian and Serbian words are derived) have the
Serbian words gorljiv (combustive; Cz. hořlavý) and garavljenje (sooting).

The Speechless Speech

Sunday, 1. June 2008, 16:30:40

I've looked at several etymological dictionaries for "speech" but none have shed any light on
how "speech" might include "symbolic speech." Where does the notion that "symbolic speech" is
described by "speech"?


Speech is verbal communication and symbolic speech is non-verbal. I cannot see what
etymology has to do with "symbolic speech", unless you think about etymology of both speech
and symbol separately.

As for "speech", it would be interesting to compare this with "preach" and see if there is anything
"in common" between these two words? According to etymological books, preach comes from
OE predician (Ger. predigen; Serb. pridika /preach/). The same process of sound changes
occurred in Serbian, where pridika (preach, lecture) is "transformed" to priča (narration, story;
verb pričati /narrate, chat, say, talk, converse/).

On the other side, English speech (from OE sp(r)ecan; Ger. sprechen) also seems to be related
to the above mentioned words - OE predician; Ger. predigen and Serb. pridika. If we added
Latin spargo (scatter, sprinkle, throw about, to disperse) and German spritzen (to spatter,
sprinkle, spray; cf. sprengen) to the above-mentioned words we could see that the (Germanic)
ancient man realized "speaking" as a kind of "word dispersion". A similar logic could be seen in
Serbian: prskati/ prsnuti (sprinkle, spray, disperse; also brizgati /sprinkle, spray/) and
praskati/prasnuti (utter in a loud voice, shout).

The Serbian verb is-pričati (to talk about, report) is the word derived from the secondary ur-
basis Br-Gon ("opposite driving"; from Bel-Hor-Gon), wherefrom the other Serbian words as
borenje (fighting; from bo(l)hrenje; cf. Lat. bello -are /to wage war, fight/), preganje/ prezanje
(press) and the adverb preko (over, across, throughout, beyond, above). Another Serbian word
(sprega link, coupling) is telling us that priča (narration, story) is impossible if you don't have a
"speech companion" who is "placed" across, vis-à-vis or in front of you (Serb. preko on the other

Of course, there are other Serbian words that were derived from the same secondary Br-Gon
basis, as zborenje (talking), sporenje (argufying, quarrel, dispute; Russ. спорить)... all related to
sprezanje, sprega (connection, link), sprezanje (pressure) and borenje (fighting).

On the other side is the word symbol... Let us see what the etymology of that word is. First, it
seems logical if we say that symbol is "picture of something"! Serbian word slika (picture, image;
Serb. sličan /similar, alike/) is derived from sa-oblik (Gon-Bel-Gon ur- basis) and it could be
compared with German Latin similis (like, resembling, similar) and German selbe (same). I have
already written about Gon-Bel-Gon basis, where from we can see the main directions of Gon-
Bel-Gon-ic evolution. Now we are able to grasp that Serbian slika (picture; from sa(h)blik) is
derived from the same basis as the verb sakupljati (collect), Eng. collect, assemble, Lat.
capillus, conligo, Ger. sammeln, Serb. gomila (heap), zemlja (earth), nebo... (sky).

Greek σύμβολον used the same logic as German Zufall (coincidence, hap; cf. Serb. slika
/picture, image/, slično /alike, similar/ and slučaj / hap, coincidence/). Old Slavonic лоучити/lučiti
is derived from the same basis as the Serbian obliti (suffuse), in fact from the same Gon- Bel-
Gon basis as the Serbian verb ubaciti [throw in; from (h)ub(l)aciti; cf. Serbian pucati /shoot/,
from pu(l)knuti, opaliti]. Coincidence is nothing else but an unexpected insertion (throwing in) of
the third element into the well-known environment.

The "Antediluvian" Xur-Gon

Wednesday, 7. May 2008, 10:29:29

Hor(u)s is a well known eagle/falcon-headed divinity of Egyptian religion. It is the reason why
there are very similar words for eagle (falcon, crane) in different languages and language
groups: Serb. orao/oro                                  -                            -
                                   falcon; γέρᾰνος crane. On the other side is Slavic god Hors
who represents the sun that grows smaller as the days become shorter - towards the winter
solstice - and the day after when the sun dies. The 21st of December, when the day is the
shortest on the Northern Hemisphere, is celebrated by the pagan Slavs as the day when the so-
called "black god" is most potent - and that celebration is known as Korochun (Karačun,

Vasmer believes that Korochun (Hun. karácsony and Rom. crãciun /Christmas/ - Slavic
loanword) is related to the Slavic verb 'koračati' (pace, stride, step, march, walk; Bul. крача;
Serb. koračiti, kročiti; Cz. kráčet; Up.Sorb.       ) although there is no such word in Russian
and some other East Slavic languages. Nevertheless, it seems more plausible that the Slavic
verb 'kratiti' (shorten) was the "creator" of Korochun (Serb. s-kraćen; Russ. сокращать,
укорачивать /shorten/, сокращение /abbreviation/; Bul. кратък /short/, съкращение
/abbreviation/; Serb. kraćenje /abbreviation, shortened/; Cz. zkrácený /abbreviated, shortened/.
Vasmer also added that Korochun couldn't be derived from the word 'short' (kratiti, kraćenje)
because it is (allegedly) phonetically impossible, since all the Slavic languages have the sound
"č" in Kračun (Korochun, Karachun).

Nevertheless, the above "striding-shortening dilemma" might be totally insignificant if new that
the source of both those words
                                                -                                            ; Latin
circus; O.E. HRING), because the biggest part of the "kinetic" and "urban" IE vocabulary has
been based on that word (CIRCUS).

Let us now compare the two English words, stride and stretch, with the Serbian korak (pace)
and iskorak (stride). What these words have in common? Is Serbian 'krenuti' (start, set off, run)
related to English 'run'? What to say about Serbian trag (trace) and English trace? Or Slavic trg
(market) and English trade? What is the relation between Russian дорога/daroga (road) and
English track? Is the Serbian word strana (side; Russ. сторона side, странный strange) related
to English strange?

In order to really understand the relation among the above-mentioned words, we must follow the
primal philosophy of "circle", profoundly established by the first "piping-up-man" conscious
verbiage. For instance, Serbian iskorak (stride) means just one (long) step forward and it is
understood as a step out(1) of a circle (Serb. iz kruga out of the circle). It shows that the ancient
man envisaged his natural environment in forms of circle [thence the words as Serbian kraj and
                                                            ], as well as he understood that all
physical and mental processes are a sort of "circulation" (Lat. curriculum a running contest;
Serb. trka race; kret-anje movement; trkali/šte raceground; k => t sound change; cf. Serbian
kretanje movement) => trčanje running).

The development of IE languages has been much simpler than anyone has ever imagined.
Namely, if we know the "source", from which the IE words has been generated, we can
"calculate" the exact "trajectory" of any single word that can be found in any of the IE
vocabularies. For example, any above average educated man (linguists included) would have
just waved off impatiently if he had been told that the English word searching is derived from the
same ur-basis as Serbian traženje (searching). Of course, if they were in a position to
understand that English search is derived from the Latin word circus (circle; O.Fr. cerchier) and
that Serbian traženje (searching) also came from kruženje (circulation; Serb. krug circle), then
they would certainly be less mistrustful towards the "teaching" of the HSF Xur-Bel-Gon "theory".

Trading On Tratina
Tuesday, 6. May 2008, 20:46:34

Celtic 'durùnna' means "fast water". Compare the names of rivers Dordogne (from Duruna) in
France, Drina in Serbia and the terms Dardan and Dardanian, which in classical writings
considered as synonymous with the term Trojan. I am trying to show the way in which everyone
one can independently follow the history of any words. Namely, in case od Duruna (Drina) we
cannot start from any known IE root, neither from dher-, dhers-, derk-, dhreg- nor from ter- etc.,
because these roots are markers for the modern words in a way as we see them today.

In fact, all the above "roots" were the "products" of the ancient (primal) basis HOR-GON. As I
told many times before, HOR/S represented the sun god and one of the first words that sprung
from this basis was CIRCLE (Serb. KRUG); of course, according to the round-shaped form of
the sun. The notion of CIRCULATION evolved from the previous word – CIRCLE (Serb. KRUG).
From this moment on, we can completely track the farther development of the HOR-GON basis,
as it seems, only in Slavic languages, especially in Serbian.

The next word that comes out from CIRCULATION (KRUŽENJE) is KRETANJE (motion,
movement). We can clearly see here the velar to dental change in the middle syllable (krugenje
=> krećanje => kretanje). In addition, there is the Serbian word TRKATI/ TRČATI (run),
TRČANJE (running), which seems to be a metathesis of KRETANJE (KRETANJE => TRKANJE
running), with the same meaning as the Greek TREHO (τρέχω). As we can see, English RUN
fits well into the given scheme, because it is a pair with the Serbian KRENI (imperative go!), of
course, with the initial sound being elided.

The Serbian word TRK (run; Greek TREHO) was the source of other words, as English TRACK,
Russian DOROGA (road) Serbian TRAG (trace) and English TRACE).

On the other side, KRUŽENJE (circulation), via TRAŽENJE (searching, looking) gave birth to
the words as Serbian TRAŽENJE (searching, looking), TRG (market), Greek AGORAS αγοράς
(market) and English TRADING (cf. Serbian verb TERATI drive).

The above-mentioned Serbian word TERANJE (driving, chasing) was derived from the older
word GURANJE (pushing) via, today dialectal ĆERANJE (driving, chasing; ‘ć’ is equal to the
Italian ‘c’ in ‘ciao’). As we can see, GURANJE also sprang from the basis HOR-GON. In fact,
KRUŽENJE (circulation) and TRAŽENJE (searching, looking) are imaginable without GURANJE

After solving the problem with the history of the Serbian word TERANJE (driving) it becomes
clear were the other Serbian words as DERANJE (abrade, tear), TRENJE (friction; Greek τριβή,
Serb. TRVENJE), DIRANJE (touching) and UDARANJE (striking; Greek DERNO δέρνω beat)
came from. The English TEAR was born from the same basis as Serbian TERATI (drive) and
OTRGNUTI (tear).

There is the Serbian word VODO-DERINA (gully, rill-mark) that shows us from whence the river
names Drina and Duruna came. Let us compare this DERINA (DRINA) with the Slavic names of
populated places DARDA and TORDA. Darda was first mentioned in the end of 13th and
beginning of 14th century as "Tarda". Ottoman traveling-writer Evlija Celebija in 1663 described
Darda as an important market place. In fact, Tarda or Torda was nothing else but a place of
TRADE. In addition, there are the Slavic personal name DARODAN (who is gifted) and the
Serbian words for stamped (leveled, torn down) land TRATINA and UTRINA (Serb. UTRT
beaten). TRATINA or UTRINA (leveled land) always was the best place for trading. This
TRADING on TRATINA was the reason why we have Serbian words TARA (tare weight;
generally, an empty truck makes up about one-third of the total weight of the truck – Serb.
TREĆINA), TRUDITI SE (effort, endevour) and syntagma “TRUD se isplati” (it is worth of effort),
i.e. the value of our work is well visible on the market.

Serbian Himalaya (Homolje) Mountains

Monday, 28. April 2008, 11:58:22

The rough meaning of Gon-Bel-Gon is "roundness, round heap, clod, cloud, ample, oval object,
egg-like" etc. Gon-Bel is a part of my HSF Xur-Bel-Gon "well-spring" or "generator" of speech.
Bel-Gon form is intrinsically connected to the sun and to the sun-divinity - Bel (Zeus Belos,
Jupiter Belus; Celtic divinity Bel, Semitic divinity Bel, Belanus etc.). There is an enormous
number of words that are derived from Gon-Bel-Gon basis, where the syllable Gon represents
any kind of movement (phisical as well as mental). Maybe the ancient people realized that the
whole life BEGAN thanks to the sun's activity; so we could sa

/any basis is a "beginning"/;                                   -                    /remove/; Ger.
Beginn, Anfang /beginning/.

Following the above logic of the "beginning" we can easily understand the further "branching" of
words and their meanings: pello => expell, pulso => expulsio => explosion; Serb.
polaziti/pogoniti (start to go; Beginn), poleteti (fly; Ger. Fliegen; iz-leteti from iz-(po)leteti, aus-
fliegen), ispaliti (shoot); pogoniti (drive) => puknuti (explode).

Nevertheless, let us go back to the "basic" meaning of Gon-Bel-Gon - roundness, heap! While
comparing English heap (Ger. Haufe), inhabit and heaven with the Slavic words zemlja (earth),
gomila (heap; also known in its metathesized form "mogila"), nebo (heaven, sky) and selo
(village) we can hardly understand the exact relation among all these word, especially if we try
to solve this problem using the standard linguistic methods. Although the Slavic word zemlja
(earth) and English heaven have different but similar "roots" (g^hðem- and *ke-men-; Germanic
*hibin-, *himin-), there is a small chance that anyone would say that "zemlja" and "heaven"
originated from the same "source". Everybody can see that English "heap" has a close meaning
to "accumulation", but there are rare people who are able to understand that this words are the
closest cognates. Is there any possibility to prove that "accumulation" is closely related to
"hamlet", "home" and Serbian "selo" (village)? Who would ever believe you if you said that
English "home" is related to Slavic "dom" or that Latin humus (ground, earth, soil; cf. Serb. hum
/mound/, humka /tomb/) is a counterpart word for Slavic "gomila" (heap; mogila) and "zemlja"

Latin globus (globe, ball) is the cognate of the Serbian word lopta (ball), but if we compare Serb.
lopta and Lat. globus with words as Serb. oblina (roundness; from h/oblina) or M. Lat. ovalis
(egg-like; Lat. volubilitas, probably from h/uolubilita; cf. Serb. uobliti /make round/) we shall
clearly see that all this words are derived from the Gon-Bel-Gon basis.

Habeo, Haben
Thursday, 24. April 2008, 23:57:19

Do you think Latin "habeo" is related to German "haben"?

Harlan Messinger

There is no evidences at all that 'haben' and 'habeo' are false cognates. What do you think, is
German Heft (grip; MHG haft fetter, bond) rela

                  раti grab, seize) and okovati (fetter). If I say that Slavic hapati (take, grab,
seize) and German haben (have) are related to Slavic hvat- and Germanic haft- (Ger. Haft
imprisonment) I do not know will you be able to understand it. Therefore, compare English
captiv-ity (Lat. captivus prisoner) and German Haft (jail, detainment; cf. Serb. hapsiti arrest) and
maybe you will be able to grasp that Latin capio and habeo are the words that are derived from
the same basis.

After all the above Germanic and Slavic examples are presented, only a complete idiot could
claim that Latin habeo and OE habban are unrelated words or false cognates.

I need you to explain why one man--yourself--with little or no understanding of the established
theory that leads to the conclusion that they *aren't* related *despite* the superficial
resemblance--should be surprised that "because I say so" isn't sufficient to change people's
minds. That's what I need

What a funny guy you are Harlan! Established theory? Only a totaly uneducated or "upside-
down" trained "etymologist" could say that these words have nothing more in common except
the "vague" and "superficial resemblance". Didn't you know that "the flat Earth" was once a
"well- established theory"?

It is generally taken as true that the initial h in Germanic languages corresponds to Latin c(k).
One of the best examples to substantiate the above statement is relation between heart (Herz)
and cor (cordis; Greek καρδιά). Nevertheless, try to imagine the following sound
correspodences among words like English heard, crowd, Latin grex gregis (heard), Serbian krdo
(heard) and družina (society, group of people/animals, pack). Following this example we mi

gather together).

Now, let us take a more difficult example; English hamlet/home and Latin habito (inhabit, dwell).
I know that it is almost impossible for you to understand the clear relations between Serbian
naseobina (settlement) and Latin inhabito (inhabit; Eng. inhabitance); Slavic dom and English
home; Serbian domaćin (host, lord) and latin dominus (master of a house, lord); Serbian selo
(village) and English (hamlet) etc.; but I hope you are not so dull not to see that hamlet is related
to habito.

In this case we have a direct h <=> h correspondence between Latin and English. If you start
from my HSF "theory" and Gon-Bel-Gon basis (which general meaning is "round heap") you will
be able to grasp that Serbian word imanje (from himanje) is the same word as English hamlet/
home and Latin habitus; all words derived from the verb "have" (Latin habeo, Eng. have, Serb.
h/imati; I hope you are not so stuped not to see that Serbian "imati" originated from hibati; b =>
m sound change).

It is interesting to mention that the ancient man (according to the words he used to name the
Earth: Sl. zemlja; Gr. γη, χώμα, γεωλοφος / hill/, Lat. humus; gleba, globus; tumulus = cumulus;
tomb /!!/, Eng. clod) was aware that the Earth was round.

Hamlet, Lat. habito, Serb. imanje (possession, assets, goods, domain, estate) and selo (village)
are the words that originated from the same Gon-Bel-Gon basis ("round heap"). All the sound
changes present in these cases are well-known and easily explainable: hamlet <= Gon-Bel-
Gon => habito; Serb. soba /room/, na-seobina /settlement/, na-selje (from na-seblje) => selo
(village). The ultimate importance is on understanding of semantics and other logical issues that
could (exactly!) inform us how (and from which "source"?) the language had been developed in
the past.
Diurnal Flame

Thursday, 24. April 2008, 23:34:17

Do you think the English words "day" and "diary" are related? Which of them do you think is
related to "journal"?

Let us start with the Gaelic holiday celebrated around May 1, called Beltane (also known as May
Day; O. Irish Beltain "bright fire"). This word sounds almost the same as Serbian "beli dan"
(white day). Old Irish "bright fire" (Beltain; the Gaulish deity Belenos "bright one") could be
translated to Serbian as "beli oganj" - "white fire" or "paljenje" (firing; words derived from the
primeval Bel-Gon basis). On the other side, there is AS bǽl (fire, flame).

AS georne, giorne, gyrne; Ger. gern (diligently, carefully, zealously, willingly, readily) is related
to Serbian orno; oran (ready, diligent, willing; from h/oran; Hor-Gon basis). Serbian "oran"
(diligent, ready) comes from the verb "uraniti" (get up early; cf. Eng. ere). Now try to compare
Greek χρονος (time), αυριον (to-morrow, next day) with Serbo- Slavic utro/jutro (morning),
sutra/zavtra (tomorrow) and zora (dawn); zorenje (dawning) and žurenje/jurenje; žriti/juriti
(haste, hurry, rush).

In addition, we can see that MHG hurren (to whir, move fast) is the same word as the above-
mentioned Serbian words žurenje and jurenje (hastiness, hurry). Logically, you must be 'oran'
(georne, eager) and you must get up early (Serb. rano; uraniti; from gon-h/rano) in the morning
(jutro) if you want not to be "overran" by time (chronos, Serb. ura, Eng. hour). Finally, there is
the Avestan ayar (day), which is related to English year, hour and ere, including the Latin
diurnus, French jour, journée and Italian giorno.

It means that Latin dies and English day (Ger. Tag, Serb. dan) are derived from the reduplicated
Gon syllable (Slavic oganj fire, Eng. gun :-), Lat. ignis, Hett. agniš; OSl. огнь), while diurnus
comes from Hor-Gon basis (hurry, ere, early. It is interesting to mention that Lat, diurnu/s
originated fro giurnu/s and that the Italian "day" (giorno) is "older" than he Latin diurnu-.
Probably, some of the Latin "orthographers" mixed dies with giurnu- and changed the initial
velar to dental.


Thursday, 24. April 2008, 23:15:06

Explain why you believe that they are related.

Peter T. Daniels

Let us first compare Dutch zamelen with the Slavic word zemlja. Of course, anyone can see the
phonetic resemblance (zamelen <=> zemljan / earthly/) between these two words. There is no
need to explain the relation between Dutch zamelen and German sammeln (collect), but we
must be more insightful if we want to explain the relatedness among words zamelen, zemlja
(earth), cumulus, compile and collect. First thing we need to "detect" is the main "picture" that
those words are "representing" and that "picture" may be "seen" in a common form of an
undefined HEAP.

The Slavic word zemlja (earth) is in reality nothing else but gomila (heap; gomila => zemela =>
zemlja). And what is the biggest "heaping up" that can be seen in the world? Is it not the piling
of clouds? Cumulus? When we say "gomilanje oblaka" (Serb. piling of clouds), we are uttering
two words that are derived from the same Gon-Bel-Gon basis (gnoMbilanje and gnoblak; cf.
Latin nebula, Ger. Nebel (fog, mist); Serb. Nebo sky); similar is in German (Wolken häufen sich;
in this case English piling is "equal" to German Wolken - both words miss the Gon syllable in
their beginning).

English compile (from Lat. compilo -are; con + pilo) is the "older" word than pile in the same way
as Serbo-Slavic na-pol-niti/napuniti (to fill up) is "older" than pol-niti/pu-niti (fill); and compile is
derived from the same Gon-Bel-Gon basis as the word cumulus (from cuMbulus). Above
mentioned Slavic word napolniti can be equated with the Serbian word kupljenje (gathering,
assembling; we can see that assemble is very close to Dutch zamelen or German sammeln; in
addition, "assembling" clearly shows the Gon-Bel-Gon-ic origin of zamelen and sammeln).

Serbian word kupljenje (gathering) is another form of the word naoblačiti se (become cloudy),
naoblačen (cloudy) and it is one of the crucial evidences that napolniti (fill up) is older than
polniti (fill), that oblak (cloud) comes from g/h(n)oblak, that okupljanje (gathering) is the same as
naoblaka (cloud), that naoblaka (cloud) is a novelty in the sky (Serb. novo new)...

I hope that you have enough elements needed for to be able to understand that my Gon-Bel-
Gon ur-basis is not a "product" of my abundant imagination but a real (undeniable) fact. English
collect (Lat. con + legere; from coM(b)lego) is in reality the same as above mentioned 'compile'
(Gon-Bel; Slavic o-kuMblagne => okupljanje / assembling/).

Ger. Gewehr (Gun), Gewähr (Warranty) , Serb. Kubura (Handgun), Ugovor (Agreement)

Wednesday, 9. April 2008, 10:11:11

Congratulation Heidi! You made my day! You are better than Vasmer!

                             , gausti звучать ( buzz, drone) thinking it was akin to the Russian
word 'говор'; John Atkinson cited it uncritically in one of his messages to my "Cybalist" topic.
MHG. 'gewern' sound the same as modern English 'govern'
Gebühr (fee)
gebaren behavior
gewahr (aware, cognisant), Gebärde (gesture)
Greek κυβερνώ (govern, be in power)
OCS говоръ/govor - speech, speaking, talk; Pol. gwar, Czech hovor.

Let us go a little bit farther: English GUARD <=> WARD; OE weardian
Serbian UGOVORITI (agree upon) <=> UTVRDITI (to get AGREED)
Serbian GOVORITI (talk) <=> UGOVORITI (agree upon) <=> U-TVRDITI (allege, assert,
Serbian UT-VRDA, VARDA, TVRĐAVA, UTVRĐENJE (castle, stronhold, citadel);
Lithuanian TVIRTOVE (citadel; Serb. tvrđava) => Lithuanian TVIRTINTI (assert; Serb. tvrditi)
Serbian TVRD (hard) <=> Lithuanian TVIRTAS (hard)
Serbian UDVARATI (woo, court); 'udvarati' is in fact the same as UGOVARATI (in this case:
arrange marriage)
Serbian VRDATI (quibble) <=> IZ-GOVOR
Kuo tamsta vardu? What is your name?
Lithuanian VARDAS (name).

Serbian ČUVAR (keeper) <=> English KEEPER
English WARDEN <=> VRATAR (porter, keeper); from Serbian DVER (door),
DOVRATAK, VRATA (door), Greek ΘΥΡΑ (gate), German TÜR, Sanskrit DVARAM (door), Skt.
APA-VRITAM (wide open), Serb. OTVOR (opening), Latvian DURVIS (door; this Latvian word
could be the cognate of Slavic DRVO (tree); the doors are generally made of wood), Latv.
ATVERT (open), Latv. TURET (keep), Latv. AIT-KOPIS (shepherd) Lithuanian DURYS (door),
ATVERTI (open); Hebrew KEBES (lamb, sheep, young ram); Serbian KOBASA, KOBASICA
(shepherd's food)

Serb. OT-VARATI (open) => Serb. OD-GO-VARATI (answer, respond)

Serbian TABOR (camp), ČADOR, ŠATOR (tent) - all coming from DVOR (house) and
STVORITI (make, create); we can see here that the Serbian number ČETIRI, ČETVORO (four,
Greek τέσσερα, τέταρτος, Latin QUATTUOR, Turkish dört, German vier from Serb. DVOR,
English TOWER, Lat. turris, English town DOVER?; cf. above Serb. TVRĐAVA castle, fortress)
apeared from the noun DVOR (house) or ČADOR (tent) taking in account the four sides of the
house or tent.

Serbian KUBURA (trouble), KUBURENJE (coping with troubles), BORENJE (fighting, combat)
Serbian GO-VORENJE (speech, talk); UD-VARANJE (wooing, condescending talk); hence
Serbian VARANJE (cheating), IZNE-VERITI from IZ-GNE- VERITI (betry).
The main problem is to see is the Serbian word 'govor' originating from the compound word
(discuss, negotiate). Another, almost forgotten Serbian word is specially interesting - it is PRO-
TA- BORITI (to chat; Serbian "došla je da koju protabori" (she came for a lettle chat). This word
connects DVOR (house) and GOVOR (speech); hence TVRĐAVA, UTVRĐENJE (fortress) and

Of course, my intention here is not to bring some apriori conclusions. The above words are only
a material for an eventual (more serious) reaserche in the future.

Heidi wrote: ON takes at least two for there to exist an assertion... one to assert and
one to hear it. A "a tveirtove" could be a two towered citadel. It takes at least to make fast or
hard an agreement.

OIsl. tviræði (ambiguity); in fact tvi (two) reiða (attendance, service); this sounds close to
Serbian dvored (two-arrayed or two- raw);
(attendance, service) is the same word as Serbian (work, service)
OIsl. tveir (tvœr, tvau) and
OIsl. vörðr (warder; Serb. vratar)
OIsl. orð word; Serb. oriti (speak, resound), Lat. orator (speaker)
OIsl. prédika (preach; Serb. pridika)
"koma á rœðu við..." (to enter into talk with); German reden (talk) - Serb. go-voriti (speak) =>
Serb. oriti (speak), Ger. Wort => OIsl. orð (word); if we compare all these words and if we know
that the both part of the Serbian word 'prego-varati' (negotiate) came from 'obraćati' (invoke) i.e.
'pričati' (talk) or 'pridikovati' (preach) we shall see that their basis was BR-GON (opposite
driving)... in case of the Serb. 'pre-go-vara-nje' (negotiation) we have the same basis
reduplicated (br-gon-br-gon).

Although this process seems complicated it is very simple in its essence. Tomorrow I will try to
explain the way in which Slavic and Germanic words are indivisible related. OE weorð; Serb.
vredan (worthy)
ON verðr - we see that Old Norse "worth" is R suffixed in the same way as above 'tveir' (tvai);
what is the meaning of that R?
The problem is that we do not know from which "root" the Slavic 'govor' sprang . Pokorny would
say it was the root *gou- (*goue-, *gū-, *gow-), but it is wrong because it coresponds to Old
Indian 'gavate' (to sound), Serb. 'zvuk' (sound), 'zovnuti' (call) and 'zvanje' (profession, title); of
course, it demands more profound explanation, which will connect Latin 'aqua' and Serbian
'kovanje' (coin, hammering), 'jeka' (echo!) and 'od-je- kivanje' (reecho)...
The basis here was GON-BEL-GON ;-) or in the world of "erudits" it would be close to *berg-
because Slavic 'govor' was a compound word 'go-vor', in reality reduced from 'preko-vor' (Serb.
priča story, 'pričati' speak, talk, preach!; Serb. pridika (preach!; German predigen!; Serb. prego-
vori negotiations, literally "speach fight"; here we can see that 'voriti' in Slavic 'go-voriti' is equal
to English 'war', i.e. Serb. boriti fight).
I know that the majority of the participants on this list is not able to understand what I am talking
about; especially those who are deeply swamped in "scientific" contemplation and who are not
unable to see that the diachronic development of words can be resolved only if we start our
researches first with semantic than logic and if we include phonetic changes in the end. I would
say we began from the wrong end and it was the reason why linguistic science made a little
progress from its first steps, 2 centuries ago.

In Serbian 'kubura' is old fashioned pistol, handgun and it never meant 'holster'. I was surprised
when I found the meaning 'holster' in Serbian - English online dictionaries.
On the bottom of the page you can see the picture of that old-fashioned gun (Ethnographic
Museum in Belgrade).
Kubura also has the meaning 'trouble', 'struggle' In fact, I wanted to see is there any possible
relation among these German and Serbian words.
English war and word! Are these two words mutually related and are they related with German
Wehr (protection, defense)?
Serbian 'z-borit-i' - 'go-worit! (talk, speak); boriti (fight), pregovarati (negotiate), progovoriti (start
to talk); preko (over), priča (story), progo-voriti = proča-vrljati = po-pričati (talk, speak, converse);
Gewähr and Serb. govor (speech, talk)?
Sir = Cheese (Caseus); Sour = Kiseo (Sour)

Wednesday, 9. April 2008, 08:18:36

Lat. oxygala (sour milk) is phonetically very similar to the Serbian word kiseljenje (acidification);
according to the Xur-Bel-Gon theory both of these words (oxygala, kiseljenje) are derived from
the same basis - Xur-Gon-Bel. It means that the earliest forms of kiselo (sour) and oxygala
could have sounded as xur-g-(b)-ljene and that both words were also related to Latin sorbeo (to
suck in, drink, swallow) as well as Serbian šikljanje (gush).

In this case the two conspicuous phonetic laws are observable: 1. The elision of the sound -r-
from the Xur-Gon-Bel basis. 2. A total assimilation of the sound -b- by the following -l-

Consequently, the English word cheese could be compared to the Serbian adjective kiseo
(sour), while English sour could be equated to Serbian sir (cheese). We can see that the ur-
syllable Xur has retained the sound -r- in the words sir (cheese) and sour (Serb. sirenje curdle*).
There is a Serbian adjective sirov (rude, crude, raw), which is also derived from the above-
mentioned Xur-Gon-Bel basis (Serb. sirovina / staple, raw material/).

It would be interesting to compare Serbian words sirovina (staple; Xur- Gon-Bel-Gon) and the
noun crpljenje (depletion) and verb crpeti (drain the liquid from). These words are semantically
clearly related to each- other and they appeared to be akin to Latin exa-cerbo (to make worse;
cf. Serbian is-crpljen exhausted).
*English crude is related to Serbian gruda (clod, clot); cf. Serb. z- gruda(v)ati (curdle). In
addition, Serb. gruda is akin to English hard and earth.

No, they are not. 'Kiselis' is a slow cooked compote made of cranberries in Latvian - it is 'tart' -
not 'sour'. (It is also a traditional (and very nice) Latvian dessert.)

And 'siekals' is 'saliva' in Latvian. The extrended attribute of 'gushing' could be inferred - but not
your opposite concept of 'absorption'.
You are unable to see that Lat. sorbeo is derived from the same basis as acerbo (to make bitter,
to aggravate) and Serb. crpeti (draw, deplete, exhaust) and that basis was Xur-Bel-Gon; cf.
Russ. сербать/ serbatь (slurp), Eng. slurp (MHG sürpfeln, sürfeln) and ML. sorbillare. There are
a lot of IE words that were derived from the above basis, including the names of large groups of
people, known today as Slavs (Slavonic), Serbs (Serbian; Srblji, Srbin), (H)Romans and
Germans (from celebration, celebrity; Ger. Ruhm /OHG hrôm, hroam, hruom/; Serb. slava; from
sur(b)livati => su(r)livati => slivati/ zalivati/sliti wash down, suffuse, melt down); the words
related to sorbillare and slurp, MHG sürfeln).

Lituanian surūgęs (sour; Latv. sarūgt) is, of course, related to English sour. These Baltic words
sound almost the same as Serbian surutka (whey). Latvian siers and Lithuanian sūris (cheese)
clearly show that suris (cheese) is a product obtained from SOUR milk. In Slavic the word "sir"
(Russ. сыр; Czech sýr cheese) is distantly related to the word "zora" (dawn; Russ. заря; Pol.
zorza dawn ) and the verbs "zoriti" (to dawn) and zreti (to ripe; Russ. зреть; Cz. zrání ripening;
Serb. zrenje ripening). A sort of solide clot made of whey (Serb. surutka) is named "zarnjak" in
Serbian; as you see it is close to the above-mentioned Slavic words "zorenje" (dawning) and
"zrenje" (ripening; cf. Lith. aušra dawn and aštrus /sharp, ripe/; Latv. aust means dawn, weave
and break /terminate/).

You appeared to be uninformed even when your Baltic languages are in question. Have you
ever heard for the Lithuanian word gaižus (sour) and Latvian gāzt (pour); both related to
German gießen (pour, gush) and Serbian kisnuti (to be in the raine). kišiti, kiša (rain); cf. Serb.
kisiti (to be acid, sour). These words clearly show that Serbian šikljanje (gush) is related to
kiseljenje (to make sour).

What you *may* have been looking for was the Latin 'exactor' - meaning 'impellor'. But that is
not cognate with the Serb. 'crpet' in anyway. Why? Because the Serb. 'crpet' has to have the
same origin as Baltic Latvian 'krapt' - meaning 'to steal'. And the closest Latin analog can only
be Latin 'corruptio' - meaning 'to steal'.
Lithuanian grobti (rob) is the same word as Serbian orobiti (rob; from h/orob-iti) and both of
these words are akin to the Serbian verb grabiti (grab; Lith. griebti; Latv. grābiens; even the
Latvian prefixed form sa-grābt is the same as Serbian za-grabiti/z-grabiti seize, catch, grab). It is
the truth that Lithvanian language formed its word "pa-grobti" (steal) from the grab- stem (Eng.
grab, Serb. grabiti), similar to Serbian po-grabiti, raz-grabiti (to seize something in a wild
manner; meaning close to Serb. orobiti (rob). Of course, you wasn't wrong when you said that
Serbian "crpeti" (deplete, exhaust, wipe out, scoop, draw) is related to the verb "grabiti" (seize,
grab, catch) and "h/orobiti" (rob, plunder, rape); cf. Serb. zarobljen (enslaved) and rob (slave).

English 'crude' is derived from Latin 'Crudelis' - raw or bloody - not 'granular'.

Latin crudelis has the meaning "cruel" and the English cruel and rough are akin to Serbian grub
(rough); all from the above verb grab (grabiti); cf. Serbian grabljivac and English rapacious
(obviously fro h/rapacious; Lat. rapina /robbery, plunder/; ravine; hence Lat. raptus /tearing off,
plunder, rape, rob/ and ruptor/rumpere /breaker, violator/= robbery)

And 'grain' itself only appears from c.1315 and is related to L. granum "seed"

The best fit that exists between Latin 'granum' (seed) and medieval 'grain' - and which also
encompasses the idea of granularity - is a root that encompasses meanings of both 'seed' and

Try to grasp that L.Latin granulum is a counterpart-word to Serbian "zrnevlje" (granules) and
both of these words are derived from Xur-Gon- Bel basis (Latv. grans /grain/, granulēt /corn/,
Lith. granuliuoti / grain/). Of course, if you thumbed the Lithuanian dictionary more carefully, you
would see that Lithuanian grūdas (grain) sounds the same as Serbian gruda (clot, clod). There
is the Serbian word grud(v)a with the same meaning as gruda (clod), where the sound -v- was
inserted afterwards, "replacing" the approximant -w- or the vowel -u-. Now we can also see that
the Serbian noun ugrušak (a lump of blood, blood clot, clot) and the verb grušati (coagulate,
curdle, clot; Serb. ugrušana krv = curdled blood) are not only related to English crude but also to
Greek κρέας (meat) and another Serbian word - krtina (the raw /fatless/ meat).

The "Mother Language" - Lithuanian!

Wednesday, 9. April 2008, 07:59:17

Sanskrit sunus son - Lith. sunus;
Sanskrit viras man - Lith. vyras;
Sanskrit avis sheep - Lith. avis;
Sanskrit dhumas smoke - Lith. dumas;
Sanskrit padas sole - Lith. padas


Sanskrit sole (paadatala) is related to floor (bhuutala) as Serbian peta (heel; cf. Lith. peda, Latv.
pēda sole, heel, Lat. pes pedis; Eng. foot) is related to pod (floor); it is the reason why in
Serbian shoemaker is called po(d)stolar (Serb, po(d)stolje, Eng. pedestal). AFAIK, you cannot
make the same comparison between Lithuanian padas (sole) and floor (aukštas, dugnas,
grindys, grįsti, paklotė, vieta); of course, there is the Lithuanian word dugnas that means both
sole and floor, but that word is related to Serbian dno (bottom; from dolina, udubljenje cavity; cf.
Serb. dlan palm (of the hand)).

The Sanskrit word for "son" is sūnuḥ (similar to Serbian sinak, sin son). Naturally, this word is
related to the sun (Serbian sunce, sunac), As you can see, Lithuanian "sun" is saulė (Lat, sole,
Russ. solnce) and it is impossible to draw a direct line from the sun to "sunus" (son). A son in
the house always meant "power" (Serb. snaga power; hence other Serb. words as snaha
/daughter in law/, zaneti /get pregnant/, snošaj /copulation/), and the ancient man realized that
all the earthly power is coming from the sun.

Where did you find that Sanskrit vīryaṃ means "man"? This word might be related to Latin
virilitas (manhood; manfulness) and Serbian vrlina (virtue; cf. Lat. 'pro virili parte' to the best of
one's ability).

Sanskrit dhūma (smoke) is equal to Serbian dim (smoke), taman (dark), Russ. tuman (fog,
mist); Cz. dýmat, dým (smoke). Serbo-Slavic dim is a reduced form of the word dimljenje
(smoking), All the above words are derived from the same Gon-Bel-Gon basis, from which are
derived other IE words as Latin nebula, Serbo-Slavic nebo (sky) and oblak (cloud); cf.
Lithuanian debesis (cloud) and Serbian nebesa (sky, clouds).

The name of sheep is similar among the many of IE languages: Skt. aviḥ, Lat, ovis, Serb. ovca,
Gr. οιεος (of sheep). What makes you believe that Lithuanian avis (avinas) must be something

The Self-propelled Word Generator

Saturday, 29. March 2008, 20:25:15

Ah...o.k...I understand, your Excellency: Sur, Hor, Bel, Gon, Um...I'm sounding those out and
checking how my lips form as I'm saying these words...very primate-like...

Heidi Graw

Ten years ago I wrote a book entitled 'The Forefather of the European Man". Of course, this
book was not based on the scientific grounds and I stressed it in the book's preface, by telling:
"this is a free flight of the White Eagle".

The facts is, many of the things I concluded there were wrong, but a few "innovations" were very
inspiring and fruitful. The most important one was the idea that the human speech started from
the sun divinity and was developed later in accordance with the main characteristics of the sun
(irradiation, warmth, fire, round form etc.).
In the same book, I reasoned that one of the main self-generating wells of speech was the sun-
god Sur (Skt. Surya, Russian Zarya; Sargon - the king of Akkad, Sirius, Osiris).

Later on, I added the other sun god, Hor (Egyptian Horus, Slavic Hors) and it took me long
before I understood that Sur and Hor were the same gods, just differently pronounced (Xur).

In reality, the famous linguistic division to satem and centum languages was the result of Sur-
Hor (or Hor-Sur) rivalry. In the course of my farther studies I found out a certain correspondence
and regular correlativity among Sur, Hor and the Babylonian god Bel (Semitic Baal) and I
included that god in my first Surbel-Horbel "human speech formula".

It took me another few years to understand that my formula was deficient because it missed the
magic word that enables an omnipotent animation and comprehensive movement of spiritual
and material objects. Therefore, I added the syllable GON as a "dues ex machina", the main but
invisible divine actor who solves the problem of the continuing motion and evolution of
language. It is the way in which I "discovered" XUR-BEL-GON formula, improved, decorated
and self-propelled by human or divine power of mind (UM).

To be precise, the words started to "sparkle" out of the names of deities (Sur, Hor, Bel). The
ancient people ascribed all their day-to- day activities to the sun and considered the sun as god-
protector. In reality, the sun was their god-savior, because the nights were extremely obscured
and dangerous; the sun was bringing them the light, warmth and was giving them much better
chances for survival.

You are right! The ancient people must have been preoccupied with the every day's struggle for
pure survival. In fact, their mind was under constant pressure to solve the basic existential
problems and to eliminate the deadly danger that surrounded them day and night. Therefore, it
seems logical that the majority of people had neither time even to think of god nor to
contemplate about any other natural and supernatural power. One could say that the process of
thinking and "invention" of words was a "home work" for rare and specially gifted minds.

I am not sure, but I think that the movie “The Odyssey 2000” begins with the scene where
monkey realizes that he can use bone as a sort of deadly weapon. There were the whole
monkey pack but the only one among them was "chosen" for the "educational" job.

I would compare the beginning of speech with the invention of fire. Both must have begun at
one isolated place and later they had been spread from “neighborhood to neighborhood”.

Rotation of An Arrayed Circle

Saturday, 29. March 2008, 20:01:55

Welcome in the Magdalenian club. You are now a provisional member. If you want to become a
regular member in the full rights please give us a complete deduction of (car) tyres from
Magdalenian TYR --- he who overcomes, inverse of RYT --- spear fighter, lance thrower, archer.

Franz Gnaedinger

As matter of fact, RYT did not come as an inversion of TYR because the both words originated
from the Ur-basis HOR-GON. For instance, the Serbian vocabulary has the word 'TERANJE'
(driving, drift; cf. tyranny) whose history is very interesting; it appeared from 'gurkanje' (guranje
/pushing/ > ceranje /driving/ => teranje /drive, drift/. In a combination with the ancient syllable
BEL (HOR_BEL_GON) we acquired the Serbian word 'uguravanje' (ugurivanje => ucerivanje =>
UTERIVANJE to push in, to drive in). Modern scientists claim that the word 'drive' (O.Eng.
'drifan', Goth. 'dreiban', Ger. 'treiben') cannot be found outside the Germanic, but we can see
now that this was a false presumption (Serb. UTERIVANjE => DRIFAN => DRIVING).

On the other side are the Serbian words 'RITANJE' (buck, jerking) and 'RIDANJE' (blubber, sob)
which originated from the same HOR-GON basis (hurricane), ORIDANJE (great disorder) and
the verb 'ORITI' (big noise, clatter). Of course, I think it would be unnecessary to remind you of
other words likewise the Serbian 'uredenje' (order) and the Latin 'regno' (reign). There are a
great number of the Serbian words coming from the "horgon" source: 'RAÐANJE' (birth),
RAÐENJE, RAD (work), REÐANJE (rotation, sequence), RUŠENJE (subversion, disintegration,
ravage), RUŽENJE (blemish), RIKANJE (roaring).

When prefixed with the primeval syllable BEL this words would obtain other meanings, usually
adjectival: 'poroden' (born), 'poredano' (arrayed), 'porušeno' (broken, ruinous) etc. Compare
Serbian 'POROD' (family, offspring, confinement, delivery, accouchement) and English BIRTH,
either Serbian 'UREÐENO' and English ARRAYED (ARRANGED) or REÐANJE and
ROTATION; Serb. RUGATI (monkey, gibe, sneer, jeer, roast, outrage, deride) and Eng.
RAGGED (rag, ragging; harass with persistent criticism or carping).

Secondary ancient TYR syllable (from the "horgon" basis) could be found in different words in
the whole IE area. Russian 'дорога/ doroga' has the meaning 'way', 'road' (there is no such a
word in Serbian) and 'дорогой' / dorogoy' means 'expensive, darling, costly, dear' (Serb. 'dragi'
dear, darling). Let us compare it with the Englesh word 'drag' and Latin 'trahere'. Is there
anything in common among the Serbian 'trag' (trace!!), 'traganje / traženje' (tracing), 'držanje'
(holding), 'draženje' (irritation), 'drug' (friend) and English 'drag' (Lat. trahere).

Is the English 'riding' (road) an equivalent to the Serbian 'ritanje' (jerky movement of an animal,
horse for instant)? Maybe, it is a cognate of the Serbian 'krenuti'; /go, move/ (imp. K-RENI! =>
German 'rennen'; race, run, English 'run'), where the initial 'k' is being excluded. Actually, we
shall see that the Serbian 'ritanje' is derived from the noun 'KRUG' (HOR-GON, circle; Lat.
circus); i.e. KRUŽENJE (circling) => KRETANJE (movement). The Greek γεράκι (falcon) is in
fact the bird, which flies in circles similar to the Serbian 'orao' (eagle, Lat. aquila; hole, Serb.
'okolo' around?).

Now, it became clear that the Serbian 'KRUG' (from HOR_GON) was the central word for all the
other words connected with all the kinds of repeating movements (KRETANJE walking, going,
KRUŽENJE going in circles like falcon, TRAGANJE tracing, TRAŽENJE searching, TRČANJE
running, KORAK pace, KORAČANJE walking).

Furthermore, we are going to see that the Serbian word 'druženje' (intimacy) is immanently
linked to 'kruženje' (KRUG circle). Any social association, with the selected members,
represents the one isolated circle (KRUŽENJE => DRUŽENJE). Of course, all the members of
such a circle are the friends (DRUG) to each other.
Beside the Serbian 'teranje' (driving) there are the words as ISTERATI (force to live, to evict,
expel), ISTERIVANJE (expelling, eviction), SATERATI (to corner), SATIRANJE (destruction)
and ZATIRANJE (eradication) with the Ur-basis SUR-HOR-GON. Older variants of the above
words were IŠCERATI and SACERATI. It is the reason why we have the Serbian word
IZGURATI (expel, extrude). Sometimes I have to use these older Serbian words to clear some
other etymologies, for instant, the history of the Serbian word CORAV (blind), which has come
from the verb IŠCERIVATI (expelling; Serbian syntagma 'išcerati oko' take out an eye).

Some of the words derived from the basis SUR-HOR are very interesting; compare the Serbian
word SUŠARA (dehydration room; Serb. 'sušiti' drying up), with the Arab çahra (Sahara; Lat.
sicco, siccare). It seems no body connects the etymology of the English word 'dry' (O.E. dryge,
drygan; drígian, ðú drígast to suffer, endure, Lat. indurare, durus) with the other words as 'drain',
'drainage', 'terrain' and 'endurance'. Obviously all these words sprung from the secondary ur-
syllabic basis - TYR-GON (originally HOR-GON) and their central meaning was TERANJE
(driving). The man who had been subjected to hard work was also exposed to great suffering
(Serb. DURANJE, Eng. endurance) and, of course, those people who could endure a hard toil
were called 'duratos' (the hard one).

Now we can clearly see where the Latin 'terra' came from, because the 'terra' is a solid (hard,
Lat. duratos) part of the planet Earth.

Finally, who would ever have supposed that the English 'drinker' would have anything to do with
either hard soil (terra and terrain) or with the Serbian word 'duranje' (endurance)? There is
another Serbian word - 'po/DRIGNUTI' (belch, eruct) - which is equal to the Serbian verb
'poterati' (TERANJE driving, in this case expelling gas from the stomach). Among the Serbs
there is a proverbial saying 'TRGNI jadnu' (drink one) when offering a booze.

The (H)Risen Christ

Saturday, 29. March 2008, 11:17:23
L. oestrus vs. L. eostur.
Toss in a couple of firy seraphim... and what do you get? One heck of an orgy called Easter!
Spring has sprung and love is in the air.
Gorge on rabbits and eggs! In honour of ... Lith. Aistra, PGmc. Austron
and today's Ostara?
Oh afterthought..."Christ has risen!"
"You've got to be kidding!"
"No, I'm not. You'll find him in that rabbit warren." ;-)


Old Slavic въскрьсениѥ (resurrection): Russ. воскресение, Serb. Vaskrs/Uskrs are the words
closely related to Oster, Easter, Ostara, Aistra and these words are also closely related to the
word "star"; Uskrs (Easter) is also akin to Latin re-surrectio (surgo surgere; re-surgere;
resurrect). Dunube was once a resurrection river (Ister; Greek Istros); i.e. its name was derived
from the same primal basis (Sur-Gon) as Greek αστηρ (star), Serbian zora (dawn), sunce (sun;
from su/r/nke) and zrak/a (sun-beam; ray).

The Greek word έσχάρα (fireplace, burner, torch) is phonetically almost the same as the
Serbian verb izgore-ti (burn) and the noun iskra (spark; cf. Lat corusco /to twinkle, flash/; Serb.
kresnuti /sparkle, light up/). Now we can see that the Serbian words iskra (spark; cf. Hun. szikra
/spark/, Slavic loanword), kresati (coruscate), is-krsnuti (to appear suddenly; emerge), us-krsnuti
(resurrect) and Uskrs (Easter) are clearly and logically related to eachother.

When the name of Christ is in question (I wrote about it earlier) it cannot be a calque from
Hebrew Messiah (anointed one). Originally, the Greek word χρίω (khrio, khriein) meant graze,
similar to Serbian verb gristi, grize (graze) and it is not an accident that English grease is
phonetically close to graze.

In order to understand what really "happened" to the Christ's name we must start from the OE
rísan (to go up, rise; Serb. rast, rašćenje /rise, raise, grow/). It means that the whole Christian
doctrine is based on the idea of resurrection; i.e. on the doomsday and the rising of dead (as we
know, Christ himself risen from his grave after he was crucified and burried).
Christos is the (H)Risen One.

Of course, someone is going to ask what the words like Serbian iskra, zora, zrak or Greek
έσχάρα have in common with the name of Christ and the process of Christening. Let me try to
explain this with the Serbian word "is-krasti" (to sneak away, sneak out). Namely, Serbian word
is-krasti (sneak out) has the meaning "to leave the circle", "to leave the group", and the ancient
man envisaged any group as a sort of circle (Lat. cicus, circa, Serb. krug, Gr. krugos) and he
also imagined any possible process in nature as "circling" (Gr. χορεια any circling motion,
dance; Serb. kruženje /circling/; Eng. cruising; Lat. circino /to form into a circle/). Portuguese
igreja (church) is a close relative to Spanish jugar (play) and Serb. igra (game, play) and all
these three words were derived from Hor-Gon basis, i.e. from the common Romance circulo
(Serb. igrali-šte playground; Romanian cerc, Italian cerchia /circle/).

I hope, everyone has enough data at his disposal to understand that German Kirche or Slavic
cerkva (church), including English church (from OE cirice, cyrce), belong to the group of words
that were derived from the Hor-Gon basis, which essential meaning was "circle" (the round-
shaped form of the sun).

KOHËRA (Time, Hour)

Friday, 28. March 2008, 16:29:23

Albanian is a more than 90% compiled language, cooked of Latin, Greek and Serbian with a
very small number of its original (inherited) Caucasian words. Just compare Albanian /borë/
(snow) and Latvian / birt/ (snow, rain, come down) and you will be able to understand that both
words (Albanian and Latvian) are strongly related to the Serbian noun oborina (precipitation)
and verb oboriti (bring down, topple).

Now, let us analyze the Albanian word rënje; rënie (fall). Where this word is coming from? Is it
related to English rain? Of course, it is... but indirectly over Albanian me re (cloudy, overcast).
Finally, compare the fallowing Serbian words: mokro (wet), mo-k-renje (wetting; Latin mador
wetness, moisture), mo-re (sea; Latin mare sea, marine) and reka (river; Latin rigo, rigare to
lead or conduct water, to wet).

As we can see, a great number of Albanian words are modified by aphaeresis of Latin, Greek or
Serbian/Slavic words: Alb. re (cloud; from Serbian obo-rina precipitation; cf. Alb. vranët cloudy,
borë snow; Alb. lumë from Latin f-lume-n river; Serb. p-lima tide; Alb. shi rain from Serbian ki-
sha rain, ki-shi it rains, ki-shu-rina torrential rain Alb. lagët (wet); from Serbian vlaga (moisture);
cf. Alb. vlagët (wet) Alb. liqen (lake); from Greek pelagos; (Albanian pellg "lake, pond" confirms
such an assumption).

In the end let us also mention one another way in which Albanian words were born. The
Albanian word KOHË seems to be an inherited Albanian word, but if we take Albanian words
HERË (time), ORË (our) in a serious consideration we will also find the Albanian noun KOHËRA
(time) which clearly shows that the word herë (time; from Latin hora "hour, time") was first ko-
prefixed and afterwards the ending syllable -ra has been removed (apocoped) and the "brand-
new" Albanian word KOHË (time) has been coined (cf. Ishin kohëra lufte në Shqipëri/those were
the times of robbery in Albania; cf. Alb. një-herë once, once upon the time).

The above few examples are enough to understand that any possible "stories" about so-called
Illyrian language and its alleged Albanian descendant belong to the field of charlatan's
taradiddles or mental-disordered confabulations.


Monday, 24. March 2008, 00:13:57

Greek γυμνός (naked) is probably related to Serbian gumno (treshing floor; Eng. trashing =
Serb. trešenje; OE þrescan = Serb. treskanje). Although it is supposed that Greek γυμνός is
akin to Skt. nagnás and Serb. nag (naked), nagota (nakedness) there is a litlle chance that it
could be the truth. Simply, the sound "m" in gyMnos must be explained sufficiently, clearly and
precisely to enable people to understand what kind of phonetic mutations took place here.
Above mentioned Serbian gumno (threshing floor) is often pronounced as "guvno"; it means that
this Serbian word started from the ancient Gon-Bel-Gon basis, where the labial "b" is changed
to nasal "m" (gumno <= gubno => guvno threshing-floor).

Serbian "gumno" (threshing-floor) is akin to the Serbian verbs "komljenje" (husking) and komina
(husk). Obviously, in this case the proces of heaping up (Serb. gomilanje) is used in Serbian in
both (logical) meanings: gomilanje (heaping up) => komljenje (husking). In addition, there is
another Serbian word for husking (guljenje; peeling off; desquamating), which explains the
Serbian word golo (naked; ogoliti "to strip"). At this moment we can see that it is nevertheless
possible that Serbian word nagota (nakedness) firstly sounded as nago(l)ta, the form that could
now be equated to the Serb. verb ogoliti (to strip).

Finally, it becames clear how the Serbian word gumno (threshing-floor) is related to other two
words: gomilanje (heaping up) and komljenje (husking). Furthermore, komljenje (husking) is
logically connected to Serb. guljenje (peeling off) and ogoljenje (stripping); hence also the
Serbian word gubljenje (losing). All the above words are clearly derived from the primordial
Gon-Bel-Gon basis, and now we can understood why and how is the Greek γυμνός (gymnos
naked) related to Serbian gumno (guvno threshing-floor).


Wednesday, 19. March 2008, 23:05:38

Maybe, it could be interesting to see if the name of Nordic god Ymir is in any way related to
Slavic word mir (Serb. mir peace; Russ. мир world, peace).

First, there is the Hindu deity of death called Yama, also known as Yamarāja, who may be
related to Ymir. On the other side is the Serbo- Slavic word umor (death, tiredness, fatigue; Lat.
mors, mortis death; Skt. mṛtya death), wherefrom the other Serbian words as umirati (die),
izumirati (extinct) and smrt (death) are stemming. Slavic word smert (*sъ-mьrtь) is closely
related to Slavic mir (peace) and the verb smiriti (appease, pacify, placate, moderate; OSlav.
съмѣренъ quiet, pacific); i.e. Slavic *smert- (death) is a direct derivation from the word mir
(peace); smiriti (appease) => smrt (death).

Now, let us try to compare Sanskrit nirvana (extinction) and Serbian umirivanje (calm
someone/something; make quiet). It seems that Slavic mir comes from nir (n => m phonetic
change; unirivanje => umirivanje; Skt. nirvana).

It is supposed that Slavic word miro is a loanword from Greek μύρον (sweet oil, unguent,
perfume); but it sounds very unusual if we try to translate the Serbian compound word miro-
pomazanje (anointment). Namely, Serbian miropomazanje is the Christian custom of anointing
with holy oil (Serb. sveti mir = holy oil) used during infant baptism. Wouldn't it be more logical if
we said that Jesus is God's Peace Child (in Serb. dete Božjeg Mira; Božji Mir = God's Peace)
and that anointment symbolically denoted the parental wish that God would bring paece to the
infant? The most important thing parents would like to see is that their child is protected by god
and raised in peace (Slavic mir = peace).

Slavic goddess of death, Morena (Morena, Mara) is the same goddess of death, known in Hindu
and Baltic mythology under the name Mara. Obviously, all the above words are related to the
Serbo-Slavic word umiranje/morenje (dying; Serb. umoren killed).

As we can see, Ymir also was killed (Serb. umor-en) and, on the other side, Ymir's body was
the "starting material" for the creation of the world (Russian mir /world/).

Ymir was created from the melting ice of Niflheim (misty house/House of the Heaven; Nebeska
Kuća in Serbian; Nebeška Hiša in Slovenian; Nebel/Nebula Haus!)

The -r of Ymir is the masculine nominative case ending.

Trond Engen

Of course! But Slavic mir is a compound word. Slavic mir (peace) is obtained from a compound
word umirenje (pacification, mollification); similar umi-rati => mreti (pass away, die). There is
Serbian word jama (hole) and jamar (once again JAMA-R) is a man who is digging the holes
and jama is also a synonim for grave (jamar gravedigger). I suppose that Sanskrit Yamarāja is
equal to Serbian jamarenje (digging of holes). Serbian phrase "završiti u jami" means "to end
one's life in a grave". In fact, Serbian jama is a distant cousin of words as Serbian zemlja
(earth), gomila (heap), kamara (heap), hum (mound) and English hole and hill. I was talking
earlier that a great number of words was developed from the same basis from which their
antonyms had also been derived.

If you are able to grasp the relation among English words hill, whole, hole and hell you are on a
good path to understand the way in which the human speech has benn developed. And you
could call yourself an expert if you were able to understand the relation among Serbian words
uzimanje (taking), izneti (take out), AS ge-nimen (to take, move an object in the hand from its
place, to pick up), Serbian zemlja (earth), jamljenje (taking), hum (hill), English hill,heap, globe
and a thousands of other words I have no time to mention now.

I'd rather think of the compound Yama + rāja, meaning king Yama.


You are right Joachim! It could be taken as raja or rex (king) too, but if you could understand
that raja/rex is related to words as range, rank, and Serbian red (row), rad (work) you would also
seee that my Xur-Bel-Gon formula (HSF) is not a product of an exuberant imagination. I talked
many times about the primeval Hor-Gon basis, which gave us the words as circus, Serbian krug
(circle), kretanje (movement), uređenje (arrangement), rađenje (work). You must understand
that words like urge, work and Serb. rad are clearly related; i.e. Lat. urgeo is the same word as
English work or Serb. vergati (work). The u => v phonetic change is clearly visible and this is
another example that there was no word in IE languages that started with the vowel in initial
place (horgon => uorgon => work; ON yrka). Now, I thing you are able to conclude for yourself
that English year is nothing else but "circle" (from Hor-Gon basis; Serb. krug. Greek krugos)
were from we have Eng. "hour" (Lat. hornus "of this year"; Greek hora; Serb. ura hour etc.).

I can't help thinking of "yammer" and "jabber". :-)
"Yammer" <-- Old English "geo:mrian" to grumble, complain; OHG "ia:mar" misery, lamentation;
ON "amra" to howl.
Paul J Kriha

These words are related to Serbian žamor (murmur, babble, unrest); all comes from Gon-Bel-
Hor basis: Spanish hablar (to speak, talk, Serbian govor (speech), zboriti (speak), žubor (purl,

As you see, Serbian žamor could be compared to ne-mir (unrest), nemiran (restless, turbulant,
unquiet) is maybe the same as OE geomrian.

The sons of Bor carried Ymir to the middle of Ginnungagap and the world was made from him.
Therefore I think it could be related to Russian mir (world).

The primordial "pre-world" state is described in three levels: Muspel (fire), Ginnungagap (abys)
and Niflheim (realm of mist). Ginnungagap is a gap (Serb. zjap) or sinus (Serb. zinuti yawn) or
Serb. zinuti zjap (yawning gap); The history of the word nifl (mist, nebel, nebula, cloud; Serb.
nebo sky) is well known; but the etymology of the word Muspel remains "unknown"; maybe it is
related to Serbian vaseljena (cosmos, universe), podneblje (under-nifl, uder-sky, climate),
Serbian village Paspalji (from bel-se(b)lje; cf. Serb. uspaljen fiery)?

Ambaka Binocle

Wednesday, 19. March 2008, 22:45:36

An example of this sandhi would be tri + ambaka → tryambaka

Intersting, ambaka (eye) sounds as the nasalized Serbian syntagm "oba oka" (both eyes;
Russ.оба both око eye)!?

The word is "ambā", it means "mother", and -ka is some kind of an affix, "ambaka" so then
means "eye". For "tryambaka" dictionary says " three-eyed (originally probably "three-mothered"
from the threefold expression ...some sanskrit words...) -- but the computer dictionary is a bit
corrupted in this part, so I would have to check in the book.


Ambaka is "śiva 's eye", "eye". I do not think that ambaka (eye) is related to ambika (mother;
ambālā, ambālikā, ambi; probably related to Serbo-Slavic baba, babaluk; papa, babo; baba
[grandma] = mama [mother]?).
It seems it would be more plausible if ambaka is related to Latin 'binocular' (involving both eyes;
from bini + ocularis; binocle). In addition, there are Greek amphi-, Latin ambi- (both, on both
sides) and Sanskrit abhitas (on both sides, about), the words that are clearly related to
Serbian/Slavic oba (both) and obuhvat-iti (encompass, embrace, enclose).
I hope there is no need to explain the relation between Latin ambi- and bini- (bis double).

AS Gebúr; Bauer; Neighbour

Wednesday, 19. March 2008, 22:27:31

Could anyone of the sci.lang big "mentors" explain the relation between Serbian word
naseobina (settlement) and English inhabitancy? In addition, what the words neighbour, Ger.
Bauer and Serb. seljak (peasant) have in common?

You take no interest in the answer anyway. But let it be known that the -o- in naseobina is
related to l, so the stem word there is -sel-, which occurs in Russian as -sel- and in Polish as -

My congratulation! You are absolutely right about the sound l; naseobina comes from
naseob(l)ina; i.e. from (g)na-heh-b(l)i-(g)na; but you are not right when you conclude that
German Siedlung (settlment) is directly related to the Slavic/Serbian selo (Russ. село). Slavic
selo is a form of the word se(b)lo and na-seob(l)ina (cf. Serb. soba (!) room). On the other side,
German Siedlung (settlment) is derived from the same primal Gon- Bel-Gon basis, but with the
quite different semantic. Namely, Siedlung is related to Serbian sed(a)lo (seat, saddle) and this
is related to sagnuti (bend, bow); similar logic as among Ger. beugen, English bent and bed
(Ger. Bett). It means that the lengthened-grade form for Siedlung is *sed- (not *sel-) and *sed-
lo- is *sed-li-gn sufixed form (Serb. sedenje seating; sedlanje saddling).

If you compare Spanish hablar (speak) and Serbian govor-iti (speak) I hope you would be able
to understand the way the 'bl' phonaestheme is used in building of stem words as well as an
addition to the stem.

This is rather messy, apparently. Bjorvand and Lindeman mention ON/OIc 'salr' "hall" m. and
'sel' n. "cottage", OE 'sele' and 'sæl' n., etc.,

Trond Engen

That's OK. These words are derived from Gon-Bel basis; similar as Serbian koliba (hut) and
kula (tower)

...find a common meaning "room, single building", and tell that it's not possible to sort out if it's
an original i-, a- or s-stem. They cite Balt. sala f. "village" and Lat. solum "soil" as cognates,
leading back to IE *sel- "settlement", but prefer to take Slav. selo *sed-lo-.

English soil is related to Serbo-Slavic zemlja (earth; Skt. samala / soiled/; OFrs. sulenge soiling;
Serb. zameljan /soiled/, meljati / smear/; Gr. μελαινω blacken, to stain black). Of course, no one
could understand these processes without knowing that Slavic zemlja (Russ. земля; Cz. země
earth) is closely related to Latin globus and that Slavic selo is closely related to the other Slavic
words as zemlja (earth) and nebo (sky). In order to grasp the secret of the development of
language one need to aplly the Xur-Bel-Gon Human Speech Formula (HSF). The English word
hamlet (home) is derived from the same basis (Gon-Bel-Gon) as zemlja, selo; cf. Russ. семья
(simya; family).
Yes, I see. It's because "used in building of stem words" should be "used in bubbling of stream
Paul J Kriha

Slavic kuka, ugnuti, pognuti are the same words as English hook and bend (German beugen).
Compare Serb. počinjati, Russ. начать, начинать; Slov. začínať, all with meaning "begin", and
you will "see" that these words are po-, na- or za- prefixed. These verbs are connected to the
nouns pogon (drive), nagon (impetus), izgon (exodus), iskon (origin, bginning). Following the
logic you used in case of Slavic, I do not understand what is priventing you to apply the same
"pattern" to Germanic be + ginnan.

I know you are not as stupid as you look and that you are far more intelligent than our
copy/paste Brainy: - compare Latin generatio (from genero beget, produce, bring to life) and
Serbo-Slavic narod (people) and, I hope, you will finally be able to understand why the words as
Serbian porod (birth) and English birth (Latin partus) are most closely related.

Indo-European S-Mobile

Wednesday, 19. March 2008, 21:59:21

*(s)kleu- Serbian zaključati (to lock up); ključ (key; Ger. Schlüssel; Gr. κληΐς; Lat. clavis) Ger.
schließen; Eng. close; (key)

The etymology of the Serbian ključ (key) and za-ključati (lock up, close) appeared to be quite
clear. Namely, Serbian ključ is closely related to the word kolac (post, stake, pale, pole, picket);
i.e. ključ (key; Russ. ключ; Cz. klíč) is a wooden bar (kolac) used as a closing tool from the
oldest times. This word kolac (pole, bar; Cz. hůlka, klacek, kulatina, klada; Russ. кол) is derived
from the Gon-Bel basis where from we obtained the other Serbian words as kolo (circle), kolut
(sheave, band, ring, pulley, rim, hoop), klada (log, stock, stump) and okolina (surroundings,
area; Russ. около around; Cz. okolí). In fact, kolac (bar, pole) is related to okolina
(surroundings) and to the thence obtained word okolac (fence; cf. Serb. adverb okolo [beside,
round, around, about, about; Cz. okolo; Russ. okolo ]).

A similar example we have in case of the word "short/en" - from *(s)ker-); Serb. skratiti or kratiti
(shorten), škare (scissors), Lat. curtus (shortened); Russ. сокращать (shorten), короткий
(short); Cz. krátký (short), zkrácení (shortening).

It seems (at least in above examples) that so-called "s-mobile" is nothing but a simple Slavic sa-
prefixed words?

The Watchful Knowledge

Saturday, 8. March 2008, 09:26:11

CO OC was the proto-form of watch. OC means eye, especially the right eye. Inverse CO
means: with an attentive mind.

Franz Gnaedinger

This is interesting! English watch might be compared to Serbian uočiti/uochiti (to see). The HSF
(Xur-Bel-Gon) says that none of the European words can start with vowel and it means that the
word "watch" must have begun with a certain consonant; in this case either with bilabial or velar.
Modern Etymology books are trying to "equate" watch and wake and it seems to be
     -       -                                                                                   to
keep watch and ward, keep guard ); on the other side is, most probably, the reduplicated basis
Gon (Lat. cognosco, Greek γιγνωσκω /to know/; Serb. saznati /to find out/; saznanje

It means that Latin vigil is related to Serbo-Slavic budan (awake; Serb. budilnik /alarm-clock/)
and Serbian paziti (watch; from Bel-Gon => pal-genje => pal-ženje => paženje /watching/;
pažnja /watchfulness/). Of course, the Latin word (vigil) is closely related to the above-
mentioned Latin plausus (noise) in the same way as Serbian budan (awake) is related to buka

The English word "watch" may have nothing to do with "wake", because these words appeared
to be derived from different basis. OE wacan (to wake) is related to AS wītan (to see to, take
heed to, guard, keep), Ghotic witan (know, be aware), OHG wizzan (wherefrom German
Wissen, English wit), Serbian viđenje (seeing, knowledge), videti (to see). Now we can suppose
that "watch" is related to Ger. achten; Wächter (watcher; Wache guard; AS eáhtan observe) and
Latin oculus (eye; Ger. Auge; Serbo-Slavic oko).

Franz is not wrong when saying that his OC CO has the meaning "watch" (perceive by
mind/sight), but he seems to be unable to see that his OC CO is nothing else but the primal
syllable GON (reduplicated) - Lat. cogito (to think, reflect, speculate), cognition, Gr. νόησις
noesis, Greek γνωτος; γνωστος (known); Serbian znati; sa-znati (know, to find out), Skt. jñāta
(known), jñānaṃ (knowledge; Serb. znanje). Latin oculus is derived from Gon-Gon-Bel basis as
well as Serbian ognjilo/oknilo (a visible area, fire), okno (window), okolina (environment,
surrounding) and oko (eye); hence Ger. Kugel (sphere, globe), Serb. kugla (globus, ball; from
/h/okolo => kolo circle).

PIE *keuh1- whose outcomes include 'see', 'seer'. Lydian kaves 'priest', Avestan kava 'seer'.
Sanskrit kavi- 'wise, seer'.

No, these words are related to Latin nobilis -e (known; Serb. znalac /wise man/; from Gon-Bel-
Gon basis; Skt. kavita poetry "[g]noble words"; Serb. [g]nebeska muzika "heavenly music"; Skt.
kaviza /chief of poets/; Arab. hafiz or hafith /protector; scholar/reciter/); cf. Serbian čuvati
(observe, keep). čoban (shepherd, herdsman).

Extended form Latin custos 'watchman'. PIE *sehag- (small a) 'perceive acutely, seek out' Old
Irish saigid 'seeks out', Latin sagio 'perceive acutely', sagas 'fortune teller', English seek, Hittite
sakiya 'make known'. PIE *sekw- 'see, to follow with the eyes', English see, Lithuanian seku (?)
'follow, keep an eye on', Albanian sakuwa 'eye',
Albanian eye is sy (gyikim/shikim sight, eyesight) probably derived from *hok- (Serb. oko,
h/okom; Gr. αυγή (dawn, the light of the sun); αυγαιι (of eyes); also Gr. γλαυκός. The Greek
word glaucos (the son of Poseidon) means "green-bluish" or glowing/gleeming effect of eyes
(hence γλαυκός owl); it is the word related to Serb. jabuka (apple; Russ. jablaka; from ga-bl-ka;
očna jabučica /apple of the eye/); from *h/obl- (round, oval). Now we can understand where the
English "glow" is coming from and how it is related to owl (Lat. ulula; ON ugla; Ger. Kugel
globe); i.e. from Gon-Bel-Gon basis; AS uvvalôn (owl; fron h/uwalon).

Lydian saw- 'see'. PIE *kwek/g- 'show' - Old Church Slavonic kazr 'sign' - Greek tekmar,

English teacher (OE tæcan) comes from Latin doceo docere (teach; Serb. douka, do-učiti /to
teach additionally/; od-učiti /to disaccustom/; po-duka /teaching/) and educo -are (educate; cf.
doctor; Gr. δικαιοω to set right; δοκιμάζω approve; Serb. dokaz /proof, evidence/). German
sagen (say) seems to be related to Serbo-Slalvic kaza-ti (say), kazanje (story, Sage, saying);
the past participle of the German verb sagen (say) is ge-sagt and it is equal to Serbian
kazano/kazato (told). In both cases the source is a reduplicated or triplicated Gon ur-syllable.

- Avestan caste, 'appears' - Sanskrit caste 'sees, appears'.PIE *weik- 'appear, come into seigh
(s)pek- Latin specio 'see', Old High German spehan 'spy', Greek skeptomai 'look at, Avestan
spasyeiti 'spies', Sanskrit pasyati 'sees', Tocharian AB päk 'intend'. Then of course English

The above words are from the different primeval basis (Gon-Bel-Gon) and they cannot be taken
as an argument for your OC CO hypothesis (Gon-GON). Latin specio (to look at, see) seems to
be related to English spy (Ger. spähen) and Serbian spaziti (espy, descry, spy, spot). Maybe, in
this case we could compare German be-achten (to note) and Serbian za-paziti (to note, remark)
where the Serbian verb paziti (observe) looks as it is related to German beachten. Of course, it
is just a chance resemblance, because there is the Latin word cautio -onis (caution. foresight,
precaution), which clearly shows that the German word achten has lost its velar initial, in a
similar way as it happened to the Serbian verb "uočiti" (to notice). It means that achten primarily
sounds as uachten (uachten = uočiti) and that German wachten is a "product" of the u => v
sound change.

A Star Made of Iron

Sunday, 2. March 2008, 15:49:25

The greek word for horse is currently hippos, but in Linear B it was equus as in Latin...

But if you start from the common source (gob) you will see that the both words (hippos, equus)
are derived from the same basis (Gon-Bel); Eng. cow, Serb. gov-edo (cattle), Lat, ovis (sheep;
from hovis; Serb. ovan, ovca); as you can see horse, cow and ovis are hoofed animals;
compare hoof (Serb. kopito /hoof/ => govedo /cattle/) and hippos/equus/ cow/ovis.

Is stella and astrum of different origin? Stella, aster?

                                                             /aster (star; Lat. sidus -eris /star/) in
the same way as Serbian adjectives gvozdeno (iron) is related to zvezdano (starry). It just
crossed my mind that Latin stella and English steel could somehow be related?

There are two key words that could solve the "star-enigma": English stare (AS starian) and
Serbian zurenje (stare); Serb. Zornjača /Venus/ = English star; obviously, the Serbian word zora
(dawn; cf. Arabic zuhra /Venus/) is derived from Sur-Gon basis (the sun, Serb. sunce; from <=
su(r)nce => zornica => Zornjača /Venus/).

Star is a clear-cut IE word, but it seems that Semitic languages used the same "matrix"
(Aramaic 'styrh star) and it would not be impossible that IE and Semitic once started from the
same well-generator of human speech.

A few more examples that could corroborate above "hypothesis": Hebrew mizrak (east; from
zarakh' shine, rise up; to come up, appear); Arabic sharq (east), sahar (sunrise, dawn); all these
words are clearly related to the Serbian words zora (dawn), Zornjača (dawning star; Venus),
sunce (sun; from surnce, zornica) and žarko (hot; Serb. žarko leto = hot summer)


Sunday, 2. March 2008, 10:47:47

As I have been saying for many years this modern Jewish thing has no basis in reality. Here is a
Jewish Israeli historian confirming the real history I have been reciting and publish in Hebrew in
Israel and reviewed in the oldest Hebrew language newspaper in Israel. Damned antisemites
are everywhere!
As a side note, Ester as in book of, means star. (Mogen means shield.) In Greek, star is Aster. If
Greek and Hebrew are such different languages how are we to explain this? Another of the
hundreds of coincidences?


Istar, Ishtar, Astoreth (
                                                      ), jutro (morning; Gr. όρθρος; Latin aurora);
from zoriti (to dawn); from Sur-Hor basis (Serb. sa-goreti; iz-goreti /burn down/ => iskriti (to
sparkle). Compare Norse divinities Surtr and Aesir (Surtr is a leader of fire giants; Aesir is the
collective name of the Norse gods), as well as Asgard (homeland of the Aesir; word related to
Serbo-Slavic zgrada /bilding/, zagrada /bracket, fence/; the highest of the nine worlds).

                                                ; Ger. Stern; Russ. звезда; Czech; Litu. žvaigždė;
Cz. hvězda, hvězdičkový) is related to Serbian gizdarenje/kinđurenje/kićenje (adornment,
ornamentation) and gazda /ga-zdarica (host, hostess). In order to understand the above words
and their relations we must go back to the primal agglutination and ur-syllables Gon-Bel-Gon;
where the Serbian words as nebo (sky), zemlja (Earth), kaplja (droplet), oblak (cloud), Latin
nebula (cloud), gleba/humus (earth) appeared from; including Latin aqua, Serb. kvasiti (soak),
gvožđe (iron), okov (fetter), negve (fetters). Now it becomes clear that Slavic zvezda/hvezda is
also derived from the same Gon-Bel- Gon basis as IE words for sky, cloud, earth and heaven.

Above Serbian word gazda (host, master) is related to the older form gos(p)odar/gospar (host,
master; Lat. hospes -pitis): cf. Serbian gopodarstvo/gazdinstvo (economy) and Russian
государство/gasudarstva (state).

Grilling of the Rear

Sunday, 2. March 2008, 05:53:41

All right, even if "rare" as a cooking term has absolutely no etymological connection with the
"rare" that means "uncommon"

Daniel al-Autistiqui

In case of Latin retro (backwards, back, behind) it is well visible that initial labial p has been
removed; from Latin p/raetereo (to go by, pass by; to transgress, to surpass; Serbian preterati
/to surpass, to transgress/); Serb. (protraćiti /dawdle, waste time/); hence English retreat/return
(Lat. regressus /going back, return/; retraho -trahere /to draw back; to hold back, withdraw/).

On the other side is Latin prorogo -are (to prolong; to defer, put off; Serbian prorediti /rarefy;
Serb. redak rare/; Lat. raritas /thinness, fewness, rarity/, where the initial p has also been
removed to become English rarity in final stage :-)

The word "rear" is a syncopated "retro"; i.e. it is related to English turn; Serbian teranje (drive,
turn; cf. Serb. pre-turiti /overturn/; pre-turanje turning over; Serb. tur /buttocks/; from po-turiti,
turiti /put on, to place/; za-turiti /leave behind/).

When the word "rare" is in question we have to deal with "row" (Lat. ordo; Serb. red; from Bel-
Hor-Gon basis; Serbian poredak [arrangement/organization]; Lat. ordinatio) and with prefix "pro-
", which demands long and precise explanation of its etymology (from Bel-Hor-Gon basis;
bel(h)regne; Lat. bello -are /wage war/; Serb. borenje /fighting/).

[See also: English prearrange - Serbian prirediti (prearrange); Eng. prerogative - Serb.
prirođeno (a hereditary right/trait; Lat. praerogativus and Lat. rurigena /born in the country,

As for "rare" (lightly cooked; AS hrér) it is difficult to be sure and see exactly how this word is
wombed. Maybe it is related to gridiron (grid-iron?; Serb. greda /beam, long thick piece of wood
or metal or concrete, used in construction; girder/); or grill/hrill => hrir; l to r rhotacism? It is
interesting to mention that Old France graille (grill) sounds almost the same as Serbian grejalica
(heater). In this case, Latin craticula could hardly be taken as a precursor of grill, because Latin
cratis (wickerwork) seems to have a counterpart word in Serbian greda (beam, girder) and
grana (branch). Of course, all the above words are derived from the primal Hor-Gon basis,
either from the meaning "krug" (circle; the round form of the sun; Serb. kraj, Eng area/region;
Serb. okrajak, ogranak "a thing at the end of circle") or in accordance to the heat irradiation of
the sun (Serb. "gorenje" burning)

The Slavs - Natives and Conquerors

Tuesday, 26. February 2008, 20:12:08

Dacians, Thracians and Illyrians never existed as nations and there never existed such
languages as Thracian, Dacian and Illyrian. For God's sake, how the Slavs could have
assimilated the huge masses of the native Balkan population without war; and how it could have
happened that the Romans hadn't noticed any single war between the Balkan "aborigines" and
the Slavic "newcomers"?
Romans mentioned the Illyrian kings Bardyllis, Grabos, Pleuratus, Cleitus the Illyrian, Glaukias,
Bardyllis II, Monunius, Mytilus, Pleuratus II, Agron, Pinnes, Skerdilaidas, Pleuratus III, Gentius,
Ballaios, Queen Teuta, Bato/Baton ((from 4th BC - 1st century AD);
Dacian, from Charnabon to Burebista and Decebalus (5th BC - 2th AD); and the Roman
mentioned many of the wars they (Dacians, Thracians and Illyrians) fought against Romans and
among themselves.

In the middle of the 5th century AD the Slavs "crossed" the Danube river and the all "ancient"
Illyro/Dacio/Thracian people immediately disappeared without the trace. The Serbs and Croats
"invaded" the Balkan Peninsula 150 years later (the beginning of the 7th century!) and no one
spotted (noted) any conflict between the "autochthonous" people and their "conquerors".

All this sounds to me ludicrous, even sillier than the description of the Slavic warriors in
Maurice's Strategikon, where they were described as "underwater ambushers" who were
"breathing through long cane stalks". Nobody seems to be bothering to check the mentioned
"underwater strategy" to see is such a "military assignment" feasible at all. Of course, it is not
feasible! You cannot lie under water and breath through the cane stalk as well as it is impossible
to conqer and assimilate the "aborigines" without the war.

In this specific Balkan case, the "natives" and the "conquerors" were the same people - the

An &#39;Austere&#39; Cybalist &#39;Stern-Scientific&#39; Debate

Monday, 25. February 2008, 10:20:35

After having read a "scientific polemics" (see underneath) on Cyba- Cave-List I couldn't control
myself not to burst into a thunderous laughter.

Piotr, the big Cybalist Chieftain-Guru, was defeated by Alexandru Marius (!), one of the Cybalist
members that (a year ago, together with "immortal" Polat Kaya and 'hapless' me) had been
"classified" as "crank" by an "excellent tongue expert"- an extraordinary Shqip- Illyrian "scientist"
- Abdulah Konushevci.

Being heavily deranged and disoriented by the Alexandru's sudden blow poor Gasiorowsky
continued to talk nonsense, mixing the roots *sreu- and *strumy-.

In a few days ( I am too busy at the moment) I will explain what really happened to the roots
*sreu- and *strew-; Piotr is entirely wrong when claiming that "the *t is inserted by regular sound
changes in Germanic, Slavic..."

sg. stran'iu pl. stran'e 'clothes'(Papahagi)
Papahagi indicates also an 'Unknown etymology''?')
This lead us to a COMMON ROMANIAN *straniu
Now Piotr, you can forget Slavic strojiti for ever, as source of /straie/...

Ah, this _is_ interesting and constitutes a valid argument. OK, I accept
that you have falsified my hypothesis. I wasn't aware of the Aromanian form.


There is the Serbian word 'sekira' (ax; Lat. securis; Skt. kuta, kuthâra, Ger. Säge /saw/) which is
phonetically the same as the Serbian verb 'sekirati' (worry) and 'sigurati' (secure; Lat. securitas).
I hope it is not necessary to explain that English 'axe' is related to Serbian word 'seãi, -sek- (cut,
hack) and Latin seco secare (to cut).

On the other side is the Serbian word 'satara' (cleaver), clearly related to the above 'sekira' and
the Serbian verbs 'satirati' (destroy, exterminate; n. satiranje destruction) and 'starati se' (worry,
care; n. staranje care); here we can see that Slavic adjective 'star' (old) is related to the word
'staranje' (care) and 'starac' (old man; Serb. svekar; Skt. svasura /father in law/; Lat. socer
/father in law/; Serb. stric /uncle/). Generally an "old man" (Serb. star) was understood as the
"father" of the family and his "task" was to "take care" (Serb. starati) or "to worry, concern"
(Serb. sekirati) for the sake of family.

Now we can try to understand the origin of the Serbo-Slavic words - 'pro-stor' (space), strana
(side), steranje (spreading out), isterati (evict, eject, expel), saterati (pound, shut up or confine in
any enclosure or within any bounds or limits), satirati (destroy) - on one side, and skrenuti (turn
away), izgurati (push out, extrude, force out, expel), zgurati (pound), iskoreniti (exterminate,
eradicate; Serb. koren /root/ is related to grana /branch/). The Serbian word is- koreniti
(eradicate, root out) is close in meaning to od-straniti (remove, eliminate). Whatever goes out of
the "main road" (Serb. skrenuti deviate) it goes astray/aside (Serb. u stranu) and whatever
comes from an opposite side is strange (Serb. strano) to those on "our" side.

It becomes clear that from all of the above words an unequivocal conclusion could be drawn
that a velar-to-dental (k => t) phonetic mutation took place and resulted in counterpart-words:
skrenuti => straniti (turn away, step aside); izgurati => isterati (expel); zgurati => s(a)terati
(pound); sekirati se => starati se (worry; skr => str).

Taking in a serious consideration all the above mentioned words we are going to see that Slavic
strojiti (construct), strojenje (organizing), and stroj (device, engine, row, array, formation) are the
words closely related to other Serbo-Slavic words as skrojiti (to tailor, cut), izgraditi (build).

If Piotr were a bit more intelligent he would have seen that Serbo- Slavic "skrajanje" (tailor-
making) and "u/strajanje" (building, constructing) are the cognates of English skirt and shirt (ON
skyrta) as well as they are closely related the English verb shorten (Serb. skratiti). I hope,
intelligent people of Piotr's ilk must see that English construction is a cognate word of the Slavic
ustrajanje/ strojenje (construction).

A Supervised Nadzor

Sunday, 24. February 2008, 19:05:20
Serbian word nadzor (suprvision; Russ. над-зор/nad-zor (supervision); Czech do-zor; Pol.
nadzór (supervision); Arabic nadzara (supervision); Tur. nezaret (supervision); Per. nâzer
(overseer), nazar (sight, vision); False cognates?


Yusuf B Gursey

And what is your point? Do you think of Aramaic NDR (vow; nthar; nethra, nziru), Arabic
nadhara (vow, dedicate, promise), Hebrew nazar (dedicate, consecrate, separate)?

Yes, these two words are closely related; "to keep sacredly separate" is very near to "supervise"
and those who "supervise" are called Na(d)zarite; cf. Akkadian nazaru (curse; Tur. nazar "an
evil eye"; Arabic nadzar sight, look; Akkadian nassaru, Heb natzar /look, watch, keep, guard/).

In the Slavic languages, "nad" (and variants) is a prefix attached to "zor" (and variants), "zor"
being the root. Therefore "nadzor" (and variants) doesn't constitute a root. In Arabic, n*DH*r is a
root meaning "to look."

Marc Adler

First, the Arabic "root" for look cannot be your n*DH*r because the Arabic word nadzar is
derived from two basis: n@(d) + zhr (to be visible, light; cf. Serb/Slav. zora dawn; Arabic
sahhar; Serb. Zornjača Venus; Arabic Zuhara Venus; Serbian personal name Zora, Arabic
Zohra - both with the meaning "dawn"). The way in which the linguistic science treats Semitic
"roots" is absolutely wrong; it means that reality is quite different - Semitic "primal bases" (of
words) are probably the same as those in IE.

"Any given language pair contains just enough coincidental lexical similarities to convince
linguistic neophytes that there is an undiscovered genetic link between the two languages." -
The Adler theory of coincidental lexical similarity between languages
Marc Adler

This definition seems to be incomplete. You say "language pair... between two languages".
Between which languages? Maybe you thought "between two languages of different language
families"? The so called "false friends" between two Europen IE languages are just a kind of
semantic changes, while "false cognates" are absolutely impossible among European
languages (excluding Albanian and Armenian).

And if you don't believe me, you should see the list of linguistic coincidences I've compiled for
Japanese and English

Marc Adler

Yes, in case of English and Japanese "false cognates/" are quite normal... nothing unusual.
These languages do not belong to the same language family and, according to probability
calculus, similar linguistic (randomly "matching") coincidences are resonable and clearly
possible (foreseeable) result.

I've said what I have to say about the matter. Enjoy your theorizing.

Marc Adler

You are theorizing with your "theory of coincidental lexical similarity between languages".
Anyone can see that it is not the same if we speak about relation between English and
Japanese or English and German. Your "coincidental formula" is generalizing and putting under
the same "umbrella" very complex and very different language families, what is (from the
scientific point of view) absolutely inadmissible. It means that you neglected obvious differences
among languages originating from different language families (on one side), and ignored the
internal relations among languages within the one specific language family (on the other).
Maybe you believe that you have said something significant via your "coincidental theory", but in
reality, your "theory of coincidental lexical similarity between languages" is nothing else but a
pure "philosophy of emptiness".

Christian Kraljevina/Kingdom

Sunday, 24. February 2008, 11:17:48

My name is definitely not related to "kirche", but EVEN IF it were, it would be either borrowing or
cognate. I have no doubt, you'd find it very, very, useful if you learned the difference between
the three.

Paul J Kriha

Of course, it is not related to Kirche...I was joking; but when Heidi mentioned Germanic 'kriha' I
realized that your surname might have been connected to the Czech křičet, křičící, křik (cry,
crying); cf. Serb. Kričković, Kričko/v, Plačković (from kričati. plakati /cry, shout, whine/; Czech
křičet, plakat, pláč; Russ. кричать, плакать; Slavic krik /cry/).

There are the Serbian names as Krsto, Krstan, Krstina or family name Krstić, Križanić, Krišković
clearly related to the word 'cross' (krst, križati, križanje; Czech kříž; surname Križan) .

All the above words are derived from the primal Hor-Gon basis; i.e. from the Egyptian Horus or
Slavic Hors sun divinity. As everyone can see, the sun has a rounded form (Slavic krug, Greek
krikos, Latin circus; Eng. circle), and according to the other characteristics of the sun: the
emanation of light/heat we "obtained" the words like Slavic 'goreti/gorenje' (burn, burning) and
grom (thunder; from grunuti => grmnuti => grmeti /explode, blow up, thunder; crack, crackle/;
Czech hrom, hřmět).

Could you imagine that English 'burning' is a word that has been born from Bel-Hor-Gon basis
(Serb. pogoreti /burn down/; poh
                                                               fry; φρυγανον firewood; Serb.
prženje frying; Greek πυριγονος producing fire, Serb. purenje burning).

Now, let us analyse the Czech word kruh (circle; okruh, kružnice). Is it not possible that Czech
kruh (or Serbian krug) is a source of the words gyrate (Lat. girus circle) and rotate; Latin torno -
are; OE turnian (from hurnian and gyrate; Serb. okret turn)? We are entering the most
interesting part of our story: is the Czech word kruh (circle) related to križ (cross)? When I talked
earlier that "circle" and "cross" (krug, križ, krst) are the words derived from the same Hor- Gon
basis, you denied it emphatically. Compare the Serbian word kruh (bread) and kriška (slice;
from križanje cutting); obviously Serbian bread is called like that (kruh) in accordance with its
rounded shape and "kriška hleba" is a "piece/slice of bread".

In this moment, I hope, you are able to understand that Slavic word kružok (Russ. кружок
coterie, a small society, a small circle of people) is a "source" of the other Slavic word as
družina (company) and društvo (society; a clear-cut velar to dental sound change; cf. group =>
troupe; Czech družba friendship; Serb. drugovi friends; Russ. дружба from druže-ljublje;
дружелюбие; Slavic drug/druh friend; družba from Hor-Gon-Bel basis). In addition, I believe
that you now could grasp that Slavic word deržava (Serb. država; Русс. держава /state,
country/) is equal to Slavic kraj, krajina, okrug (district; Russ. округ, район; Lat. (x)regio -onis).

Finaly, compare Serbian words država (state, country) and kraljevina (kingdom; Czech
království; Russ. королевство) and you will see that both of these words were derived from the
same Hor-Gon-Bel basis as well as the Slavic word cerkva (Serb. crkva; Russ. церковь; Czech
církev from krugovi /circles/ => drugovi /friends/; kruženje / circling/ => kružok /coterie/ =>
druženje /frienship/).

Christ - Anointed Messiah

Sunday, 17. February 2008, 07:43:20

Could anyone tell why the Greek word χριστος has the meaning "anointed"?
In Serbian there is no problem with the words krst (cross), krštenje/ križanje (baptism) because
it clearly indicates the process of socialization (Serb. kruženje /circling/ => druženje /socializing/;
cf. Serb. kružok "a small society", literaly "a small circle").

In Serbian the word mazati has the meaning "anoint" and that word is very close to Arabic
masahha (wipe), masihi (Christian); Hebrew mashach (oil, smear, anoint); Serbian mazanje
(anointing, smear), mast (lard) - all from reduplicated Gon syllable: Serbian na-nositi (to deposit)
=> na-mazati (smear).

For instance, German Kreuzung means "traveling across" (crossing) and this word is cognate to
Serbian ukrštanje (crossing; a point where two paths intersect). All these words originated from
the primal IE basis Hor-Gon (circle; Serbian krug, Greek krikos ring; OE hring; Greek οριζων
horizon); cf. Latin gregarius (of a herd or flock; Latin aggregatus assemble; Greek αγειρω/ageiro
collect, gather).

Now it became clear that meaning of the Greek word christos is not in accordance with other IE
words where the name of Christ is connected to cross/crossing and to gregarious activities
(German Kirche, church, Serb-Slavic crkva/cerkov/církev; all related to "circle" and to the name
of Christ; circus).

Arabic word for Christian is masihi (Christ al masih; Serbian po-mazanik anointed one; Hebrew
messiah) and it is clearly related to the act of anointment (Serbian mazanje smear, anointing;
English mess, mix); this mazanje (mess, mix; Serbian mešanje mixing) "fathered" the words
mission, message (Latin missus) and mass.

Arabic - the "Mother Tongue"

Saturday, 16. February 2008, 13:12:27

As a student of Indian languages, I can tell you straight off that you have made sweeping
generalisations in your choice of place-names.
You are right, this is a compound word; the root 'srb' never existed in IE. In this case we have
the same basis Sur-Bel-Gon for both of these words - Serbin (Serblin) and Sarband. It means
that words Srbin and Sarband are compound words. The literal meaning of the word Serblin is
probably "zora bela" (white dawn), but it could also be "red dawn" or "burning dawn"; Sar is also
head (chief) in English (ser) and in German (Her) because the most important man (leader,
chieftain, headman) of a tribe was compared to the sun (or sun divinity) - Czar (!). Serbian 'zora'
is clearly related to the sun (Serb. sunce; Sur-Gon basis; from sur-nce => sunce; elision of the
sound "r"); therefrom Serbian Zornjača (Venus, Lucifer. Morning Star). Of course, meanings
'white' and 'high' are completely different as in case of Serbian words 'belo' and 'visoko' (high) or
veliko (big); also 'planina' (mountain). On the other hand, we should know that 'belo' (white) is
springing from the sun-god Bel as wel as the word 'plam' (flame; from Serbian 'planuti' blaze;
Bel-Gon basis) or the word vezati (bound). Now we can see that Serbian white (belo) and bound
(vezan) are the words that were derived from the same Bel-Gon basis. How? Serbian belo
(white) is related to bljesak (flash) and munja (Russ. молния/molniya; Bul. мълния; from Bel-
Gon basis; paljenje (ignition, burning) => maljenje => mulnja => munja; cf. Serb. bljuzga/v =>
mljuzga/v => mlaz). Of course, Serbian verb vezati is not directly related to the "whiteness" or
"flash", but indirectly, via Bel (the sun), oblak (cloud; oblak oblači sunce /cloud clothes the sun/)
and Serb. obloga/ oblanda (coating, covering) the vord vezati (bind; Avesta basta / bound, tied
up/; Hindi bastah; Skt. valganaṃ) is connected to the sun (Bel). The names Sarband and
Sarbuland are obviously derived from the same source, because 'band' also sprang from the
Sur-Bel-Gon basis (Serb. obloga/oblanda; Skt. valganam; cf. Skt. valga /bridle/). Finally, both of
these words are indirectly "related" through the words as oblak (cloud; obloga/oblanda, vezati
/fasten/) and nebo (sky), nebo, nebule is (visoko; Serb. ne-besko /of the sky/; visoko high; nad-
visiti / become higher, overgrow/) high in the sky and the sky (nebo) is "white/red/flamed/blazed"
in the morning.
Who told you that Sanskrit is IE only because of loanwords? It is generally recognised that
Sanskrit is derived from an Aryan tongue of invaders into India. Yes, the native population of
India all acquired vocabulary from these invaders. But you must not forget that the Aryan
invaders also acquired vocabulary from the conquered peoples of India. Sanskrit contains so
much IE that it would be safer to say that it is an IE tongue that contains elements of Indian
tongues in it, and not the other way round.

The Sanskrit vocabulary is not logically arranged according to the meaning of words. The
Sanskrit words cannot be traced back to its original source (basis, root) without the help of
European languages (Slavic, Germanic, Romance and Greek). The similar internal lexical
confusion is visible in Albanian (probably in Armenian) and in all other eventual languages
where the number of loanwords surpassed the number of native words.
It is thus a rather small estimate to state that the total number of root words in ancient Arabic is
100 000.

How many words the ancient Arabic had? Read again what you have written: [...Then, using
each one of these basic root words, literally thousands of further roots can be constructed...]
Please, multiply your "each root" of "existed" 20.000 "basic roots" by your "thousands of further
roots" and what are you getting...? 20.000.000 of "roots" and "subroots"?
Arabic: A-R-D Dutch: AA-R-D German: E-R-D English: EA-R-TH Latin: T-E- RR(A) [T has
changed place]
Arabic: GH-R-B English: C-R-(O)W Latin: C-(O)-R-V(US) French: C-(O)-R- B-(EAU)
Arabic: A-G-G (to light a fire) Latin: I-G-(NIS) Sanskrit: A-G-(NI)
Arabic: Q-A-T-'A English: C-U-T Hindi: K-A-T
Arabic: Q-(I)-T English: C-A-T K-(I)-TT-(EN) French: CH-A-T German: K- A-TZ
Arabic:H-U-SH [house courtyard] English: H-(OU)-S-(E) German: (H- (AU)-S
Arabic: D-A-M [staying somewhere] Serbian: D-O-M Latin: D-O-M-(US)

Arabic: A-R-D
And all these is related to "hard" (Serbian gruda /lump
                     (hard); "terrain"; Russ. daroga/дорога (road); Hebrew däräk (road). This is
just another example that could be taken as one of the "undeniable evidences" of the common
origin of IE and Semitic
Arabic: GH-R-B
Aramaic harak (burn; Arab. harak burn; giru /fire/) and Serbian goreti (burn) are the words from
the same Hor-Gon basis; hence Serbian garav (black, dark), gar (soot), žar (ember) Arabic
ghirab and Latin corvus are related to Serbian gavran (crow; metathesis of garvan; Serb. garab
/black/); cf. Serb. gorivo fuel
Arabic: A-G-G
Serbo-Slavic oganj (fire), žega (heat), žedan/žeđ (thirsty. thirst); in reality, oganj (ignis) comes
from Gon-Bel-Gon basis (Serb. ognjilo fire-place, curved pieces of steel used with flint to strike a
spark); Serb. nebo se za-ognjilo "the sky burned up"
Arabic: Q-A-T-'A
Serb. prekinuti (break), preseći (cut), seći (cut), Latin sectio (cut); Eng. hack; Serb. ot-kinuti
(split), kidati (pluck, kut off; Serb. kidaj! /tear off! cut!/); Latin praecido (to cut short); praeseco
(cut short); Aramaic pesqā (section, cut; maybe omission of the sound "r"; cf. Latin praeseco;
Serb. preseći, presekao (cut in half). It seems that this word is much clear in IE than in Semitic.
Arabic: Q-(I)-T
Probably Serb. domaćin, Lat. dominus; apheresis do-maćica (hostess) => maca => mačka (cat);
Serb. domaći (domestic; domaće životinje live- stock); cf. Latin do-matrix => mater. mother.
Serb. kuća (house), Slovene hiša (house), Eng. hut
Arabic: D-A-M
This word 'dom' is related to 'sky' (Serb. nebo), inhabit (Serb. naseobina) but it demands a long
explanation and I have no time at the moment to write how it has been developed; try to relate
Ger. Nebel and Slavic dim/dimljenje (smoke/smoking; Turkish duman smoke)
This is why linguists usually place semitic languages very near the base (the so-called
'MOTHER OF ALL LANGUAGES' of the language tree.

Don't you think that talking about the "mother of all languages" sounds childish and ridiculous?
There were a lot "scientists" who solemnly declared urbi et orbi that they found the "mother
tongue" - beginning with the Sanskrit for which the most of modern linguists, even today, believe
that it was the first descendant of the PIE. All the PIE reconstructions were made as a mirrored
image of Sanskrit and therefore they all were/are wrong.
All IE languages must be of the same age as well as all Semitic languages must have been
born at the same time. In case that IE and Semitic used the same primeval basis (Xur-Bel-Gon)
it would have meant that IE and Semitic are coeval languages. The world wasn't always a
"global village" and some groups people were often separated one from another by natural
disasters, sometimes for periods longer than the millennium/s. When they met again, logically,
they were unable to understand eachother because their former common language has been
bifurcated into two different (unintelligible) tongues.
One natural language cannot be "born" from another "older" one. For instance, could anyone
say which one of the German dialects is "older": Frisian, Frankish, Alemannic, Bavarian or
Middle/Low German? Being "born" implies a precise moment of "creation" and it implies sudden
existence and more or less quick perishing. Natural languages are developing enormously
slowly and therefore "invisible". We can see a "grown up" natural language but we cannot see
its "childhood". English cannot be taken as an example of naturally (normally) developed
language because the conqerers of the British Isles mixed their language with the language of
native people to a great extent
And what makes you feel that this is not an example of normal development?
Joachim Pense

Old English has been heavilly "polluted" during its history: first by Scandinavians (8th and 9th
centuries) and than by Normans (11th century). Old English vocabulary and grammar were
changed by force (unnaturally) and therefore the Modern English language could be considered
as a sort of mixed language.
Slavic languages are most naturally developed languages among all IE tongues, thanks to the
small (negligible) influence of foreign speeches to their internal logic and philosophical patterns,
being used in the process of their evolution.
Any of particular language families of today must have expirenced a prior phase of "total
isolation", which sometimes lasted for hundreds of thousands of years, maybe millenniums
In case of the genesis of languages there is/was no the "previous one". There are no languages
that can be considered "older" or "younger" - languages exist in a form we see them today and
their historical development could be traced back less or more deep into the past, but not more
than two to three milleniums.
Otherwise, will you say that a mammal is the same creature as a reptile, which is the same
creature as an amphibian, which is the same as a fish, which is the same as an invertebrate,
which is the same as a single-celled organism?

I think you have chosen a good example: which one of the living creatures is the "oldest" one on
the Planet Earth? You could say "none" and you could say "all" and both answers would be
equally correct. All the "earthly living creatures" must be of the same age, because all of them
have the common ancestor - a single microscopic living cell!
If you say that Arabic is a "mother tongue" it automatically implies that Arabs taught IE people
how to use the tongue as a mean of communication. You can believe whatever you want but
you cannot prove it with a few words you mentioned in one of yours earlier posts. As a matter of
fact, I think that I managed to show the history of those words much better than you succeded to
prove your Arabic-Mother-Language "hypothesis
For example, the word SUKKAR in Arabic (sugar) is derived from the root S-K-R which means
"to make drunk". This word is still used today. And the link is obvious: sugar is the basis of
alcohol production, whence drunkenness. This is the case scenario for every single word in
semitic tongues.
No, you are wrong: Arabic sukkar is the Greek loanword (Gr. σακχαρ sugar) and this Greek
word is related to ισχνωσις (drying up); i.e. Serbian šećer (sugar) is related to Serbian sušenje
(drying up) and to the word sušara (dryer, drying room); cf. Skt. śarkarā (sugar); śuṣyati (dry up;
Serb. sušiti dry up). Arabic s-k-r (sukr drunkennes) could be related to sukkar in sense of
consumption of "sweet drinks" but the word sukkar wasn't derived from the Semitic root SKR but
from the primal IE basis Sur-Hor. I hope I do not need to remind you that you cannot produce
sugar without the process of drying of cane juice (the earliest sugar refining methods used the
sun's heat energy; Skt. sahasradhāman the sun; sūryakiraṇaḥ sun-beam; Serb. zrak).
Between SUKKAR (sugar) coming from DRUNKENNESS, which is very precise, and SUKKAR
coming from DRY, which is very general and could apply to a whole load of things, I think I know
which one a logical person will choose!

Do you know the etymology of the Arabic word ssahhra (Sahara); is it related to Arabic ssahha
(cloudless. clear; Hebr. tsakh dry, glow, dazzling, bright; Serb. suh dry; sijati glow, sjajan
dazzling; Amharic s'ähäy sun)?
The primeval basis of all these words is Sur-Gon (Serb. Zor-njača Venus; Sunce Sun; from Sur-
Gon => sur-nke => sur-nce => sunce sun); hence the Serbian words zrak (beam), zriknuti
(look), Russian зеркало/ zerkalo (mirror); Serb. zrno (grain; according to the round shape of the
sun; sunce (sun; the omission of the sound r) <= surnce => zornica/ zornjača (Venus) => zrnce
(grain). Now is clear that Serbian word suho (dry) is derived from the noun sunce (sun) and the
verb sunčati (to sun); hence sušenje (drying; from suhenje /h => š palatalization/).
Sahara desert is nothing else but Serbian suhara (sušara /driying place/) or Semitic sakh (dry;
Serb. suh dry) and the relation between the words sun (Arabic shams), sunny (shiny), Arabic
ssahha (clear; Hebrew tzakh dry, bright) and Serbian suh (dry) and sjajan (shiny; also Serb.
sinuti brighten) is more than obvious.
Finally, if we compare Arabic sahhar (dawn) and Serbian zora (dawn) we will understand that
any story about "mother" language is pointless; cf. feminine personal name Zuhra, Zorah (dawn)
and Serbian Zora/Zorica (dawn); Zohreh (planet Venus; Serb. Zornjača Venus).
Some of the linguists compared Sanskrit śarkarā (gravel) śarkarākhaṃḍaḥ (pebble) and Greek
κροκαλη (pebble; from κροκυς flock; an orderly crowd; from Gr. krykos circle; Serb. krug circle).
Serbian zrno (grain) is derived from the Hor-Gon basis (krug circle; from the rounded form
similar to the shape of the Sun; Slavic sun divinity Hors). It means that sugar could have aquired
its name in accordance to its granular structure. If we know that Hor-Gon basis is just the same
as Sur-Gon (both basis came from Xur-Gon) we can compare sugar to the Serbian adjective
zaokružen (rounded) which is equal to English surrounded; all from Sur-Hor-Gon basis (Serb.
šećerenje sweetening; zgrudvati to lump; gruda lump of soil; Arabic arsz Earth; Hebrew erets);
cf. Arabic qarasa make rigid; Hebrew kheh'res earthen; Semitic q-r-s harden; English hard;
Serbian krut).
And look at the following miraculous "overturn": Serbian verbs izgoreti and sagoreti (burn down)
are clearly related to the words mentioned earlier as Serbian sušara (drying place) and sagoreti
(burn down) is related to Serbian skoreti (encrust) and, in addition, that skoreti (encrust) is
related to zgrud-vati (to lump) and ukrutiti (harden).
Finally, Latin sugo, sugere (suck) is related to Serbian sisanje (sucking; from sihanje; suhenje
=> sušenje drying up, sisa/sika nipple, mammary gland, woman's breast); cf. Lat. sicco -are (to
make dry , to dry).
Comparing Sahraa to Zohraa is also a clear example of how you do not understand that s and z
are NOT interchangeable in Arabic. In Arabic NO consonants are interchangeable. They ARE
interchangeable in IE.

Not truth! Compare sharq (East), sahhar (dawn) and Zuhara (Venus), Sanskrit śukra (Venus);
Or gharb (West), gharib (foreigner), harb (war), harb (hostility); gharib (camel's back); ghariba
(go dawn, sunset) Arabic sachuna (be warm) is clearly related to Serbian suh, sunčanje,
sušenje and sunce (the sun), Arabic shams (the sun).

Charlemagne/Carolingian, German and Slav/Serb

Wednesday, 13. February 2008, 12:10:39

Even if they look as i have it's one man against a 'learned linguist or historian' who (in reality)
doesn't have a single brain cell or backed by the Nordic school. Well I guess people intentionally
didn't want to look at the similarity between Serbian and Basque. It wasn't the first time they
turned a blind eye on Serbian and other Slavic languages when trying to look for similarities and
etymologies of languages, for example Etruscan. 'scientists' and 'linguists' looked at CENTRAL
AFRICAN languages to decipher Etruscan along with Asian, Romance, Germanic BUT
conveniently enough didn't use Serbian. Why? because using Serbian even an amateur could
read what the inscriptions say. So take you pathetic little brain and go read something that
wasn't written by one of the Nordic charlatans but before the Nordic school....Off you go.
Stefan Stević

Stefan, it is nice to be fervent when our Serbian nation is in question but it cannot help us at all if
we try to prove that Etruscan has anything in common with Serbian and other Slavic languages.
Etruscan is an isolated language and for now no one knows exactly where the Etruscan people
originated from.

Mario Alinei connects Etruscans with the Turks and Magyars (Hungarians), but I think such a
tongue-parallels could be drawn between Etruscan and any other (European or non-European)
language. For instance, Alinei compares Etruscan rasna (territory, region, country) and Old
Hungarian resz (r

                     -                                         heaven, region of heaven; Serb. krug
/circle/ from Hor-Gon basis; cf. Gr. υπαρχεια district <=> Serb. parče part, Lat. pars, partis;
Serb. pokrajina province).

It is interesting that Alinei wasn't able to understand that the Hungarian word úr (landowner,
lord) is clearly related to Germanic *her (sir), hero (Her-cules) and Latin rex (king), which is from
its side in connection with the above mentioned regio as well as with the words like Eng.
arrange-ment or Serbian uređenje (settlement, system, regulation, organization), rank, Skt.
rajan etc.

Above 'rasna' (Raseni) reminded us (the Serbs) to the "alternative" name Rašani/Rasi, the
name the Serbs called themselves in Middle Ages. Nevertheless, there is a possibility that
Serbian Rašani are indirectly related to Raseni through the meaning of 'rasna' (region) because
the Slavic names Rašani, Rusi, Ukrajinci, Krajina, Krajišnici belong to the names that are
derived from Hor-Gon basis and the basic meaning of these names is 'krug' (circle), 'okrug'
(district) and 'kraj' (brink, edging, brim, verge, territory); i.e. "the people who are living on the
same teritory". Of course, we must know that Serbo- Slavic 'krug' (circle; OE hring) comes from
the Hor/s divinity (Gr. Uranos and his son Cronos), "directly" from the Sun and it is the reason
why the H/Aryans are "noble, honorable and respectable" people (cf. Irish, German from Hor-
Bel-Gon basis; Herban => German; Charlemagne/Carolingian.

Now, I hope, you are able to see that the names of Serbs, Slavs and Germans are derived from
the same H/Sur-Bel-Gon basis; i.e. my HSF (Human Speech Formula) is indirectly based upon
the names of Germans and Serbs/Slavs.

There are other hypotheses for the origin of Etruscan (Semitic, Etruscan - IE parallel via
Armenian) but none of them could be considered as correct or proven one. Some "experts" also
"concluded" that Etruscan name was in fact the "name of Russians" (Etruscan =>

Here is an example of Etruscan inscription and, as you can see, there is no Serb/Slav, even the
most educated one who would be able to decipher it with the help of the Serbian/Slavic

Compare Serbian/Slavic vocabulary with the known list of Etruscan words and you will
understand that the "epic" stories, that some Serbian quasi-scientists launched just to heat up
the national "pride", have nothing in common with the reality.

Danube - A Big Water

Sunday, 10. February 2008, 16:35:18

Thanks. I don't have Mallory and Adams, but the on-line Pokorny has their citations under
*dhau- 'würgen, drücken, pressen' (IEW S. 235), *dhaunos 'Wolf' als 'Würger' im lat. GN Faunus
... illyr. Daunus ...
Douglas G. Kilday

According to Xur-Bel-Gon Human Speech Formula OSl. daviti (würgen, choke, strangle) comes
from the Gon-Bel-Gon primeavl basis:Serbian dubina (deepness), dubljenje (deepening),
topljenje/utapanje/davljenje (choking, suffocation); the Serbian verb 'tonuti' (sink; from tolnuti;
dubljina => dolina /dell/; duplja /hollow/); cf. Serb. tonjenje / sinking/ from tonbljenje) is clearly
related to 'dubina' (deepness; from gnu-blji-na, Russ. глубина/glubina), 'davljenje' (choking,
suffocation) and the first syllable in 'ton-uti' is present in the word of Dunav (from Serbian
'du(n)blje' (deep). It means that Latin Danubius (Danube, Ger. Donau, Celt. Danuvius, Srb.
Dunav) is the name related to "deepness", "deep water", "hollow" (cf. Irish Dublin; Serbian place
names Dubica, Dublje, Dumnica, river Tamnava; Slov. Dolenjsko...).

A few years ago I supposed that Danube was named like that according to the Serbian words
'dunuti' and 'duvati' (both with the meaning "blow" (in sense of "an impact" or "a strong current of
air"; Russ. дуновение/dunavenie flatus, blowing). The Serbian noun 'duvanje' (breath, huffing,
blow) is logically related to the words 'davljenje' (choking, suffocation), topljenje (choking,
suffocation, melting*), first because of the hardened breathing we can hear in the process of
choking (daviti /choke/ => duvati /blow), while the second meaning (duvati /strike/) came as a
process of deepening (dubljenje; dubiti deepen, dleto chisel) of the solid surface that would be
impossible without a "blowing impact" (Serb. taban "the sole of the foot", tabanje "tramping"; cf.
English tap; "tap one's memory", "he was tapping his fingers"; Serb. dobovanje /tapping/, doboš
Finally, we can bring a final conlusion that it doesn't matter was the Danube named in
accordance with its "deepness" (most plausible) or "du(n)vanje" (blowing; there are strong vinds
on Danube; Russ. dunavenye), because both words were born from the same Gon-Bel-Gon ur-
basis and both meanings are logically acceptable.
* Serbian words topljenje (thaw!, melting), tonjenje (sinking), tanjenje (getting thinner), tanak
(thin!) toplo (warm, tepid!) are clearly related to the words dubljenje (deepening), debljanje
(getting thicker!; as an opposition to thin) in sense of ice formation (dick and thin ice; gain
weight, grow fat and grow thinner!)

White Heat

Saturday, 9. February 2008, 12:43:21

The name is actually a composite of SAR (head) and BAND (bound), meaning a turbanned
head or chief. SAR is totally separate from BAND. They are two separate words
You are right, this is a compound word; the root 'srb' never existed in IE.

In this case we have the same basis Sur-Bel-Gon for both of these words - Serbin (Serblin) and
Sarband. It means that words Srbin and Sarband are compound words. The literal meaning of
the word Serblin is probably "zora bela" (white dawn), but it could also be "red dawn" or "burning

Sar is also head (chief) in English (ser) and in German (Her) because the most important man
(leader, chieftain, headman) of a tribe was compared to the sun (or sun divinity) - Czar (!).

Serbian 'zora' is clearly related to the sun (Serb. sunce; Sur-Gon basis; from sur-nce => sunce;
elision of the sound "r"); therefrom Serbian Zornjača (Venus, Lucifer. Morning Star).

Of course, meanings 'white' and 'high' are completely different as in case of Serbian words 'belo'
and 'visoko' (high) or veliko (big); also 'planina' (mountain). On the other hand, we should know
that 'belo' (white) is springing from the sun-god Bel as wel as the word 'plam' (flame; from
Serbian 'planuti' blaze; Bel-Gon basis) or the word vezati (bound).

Now we can see that Serbian white (belo) and bound (vezan) are the words that were derived
from the same Bel-Gon basis. How? Serbian belo (white) is related to bljesak (flash) and munja
(Russ. молния/molniya; Bul. мълния; from Bel-Gon basis; paljenje (ignition, burning) =>
maljenje => mulnja => munja; cf. Serb. bljuzga/v => mljuzga/v => mlaz). Of course, Serbian
verb vezati is not directly related to the "whiteness" or "flash", but indirectly, via Bel (the sun),
oblak (cloud; oblak oblači sunce /cloud clothes the sun/) and Serb. obloga/ oblanda (coating,
covering) the vord vezati (bind; Avesta basta / bound, tied up/; Hindi bastah; Skt. valganaṃ) is
connected to the sun (Bel).

The names Sarband and Sarbuland are obviously derived from the same source, because
'band' also sprang from the Sur-Bel-Gon basis (Serb. obloga/oblanda; Skt. valganam; cf. Skt.
valga /bridle/). Finally, both of these words are indirectly "related" through the words as oblak
(cloud; obloga/oblanda, vezati /fasten/) and nebo (sky), nebo, nebule is (visoko; Serb. ne-besko
/of the sky/; visoko high; nad-visiti / become higher, overgrow/) high in the sky and the sky
(nebo) is "white/red/flamed/blazed" in the morning.
Turcisms in Serbian

Thursday, 7. February 2008, 10:52:42

Does anybody know what the etymologies of these words are; jelek, jastuk, dusek, butina,
kobasica, ban, odaja, barjak, vampir, jogurt, komca. also; kasa, katran, kavez, kazan, kašika,
komšija, kovrdžav, kula, kutija, kvrčkav, alat, pamuk, barut, boja, budala, dud, dućan, dželat,
džep, kajsija, kapija, leš, majmun, makaze, marama, sanduk, sapun, sat, tavan, zejtin, čelik,
čirak, čizma, čičak, čoban, para...i know it's a mouthful but it would be really helpful...thanks


These words are mostly Serbo-Slavic, although some of them (yogurt, barjak for instance) could
possibly be of Turkic origin:

Turkish yelek (vest, waist, waistcoat); originally that word came from Serbo-Slavic obleka (cloth;
Gon-bel-Gon basis; i.e. heblek => jeblek = jelek); cf. jagluk from (h)oglavak, a maiden scarf.

Serbian barjak is a borrowing from Tur. bayrak (flag); Turkmen baydak (here is interesting to
mention that this word resembles to Turkic bay´r, bajrak /hill/ that might be a borrowing from
Slavic breg /hill; Ger. Berg/. Of course, I cannot find any logical connection between Turkic
bayrak (flag) and bajrak (hill).

Kavez (Tur. kafese) comes from the Gon-Bel basis; Serbo-Slavic okov (fetter), hvatanje (catch),
gvožđe/gvozd (iron), uvezati (fasten); Serbian syntagma "baciti u gvožđa" (to shackle); cf.
Serbian gvozd and Hephaistos Ἡφαιστος; Serb. gvožđe (iron) => zvezda (star), gvožđara (iron
shop) => zvezdara (the place full of stars) and Gr. εσεσιδηρωτο (overlaid with iron), also Gr.
σεσιδηρω-μενοι; Lat. sidereus starry).

Turkish kaşık (spoon) is not Turkish inherited word although even Vasmer understood the Slavic
word 'kašik/а' (Russ. кашик) as a Turkic loanword. Serbo-Slavic kašika (spoon) is clearly related
to the verb 'kvašenje' (wetting, soaking) and to the Serbo-Slavic word 'kaša' (soup; from
kvašenica). It is the reason why we have the forms kašika and kovšika (Russ. ковшик) as Slavic

Turkish yastık (Turkmen ÿassyk) could be compared to OE hassuc (coarse grass); maybe it is
related to English husk (Serb. ljuska). Nevertheless, there is a more reliable possibility that
Serbian jastuk (pillow) is derived from the verb uzdignuti (lift up) or 'istaknuti' (jut, prominent,
protrude) and we all know that jastuk (pillow) is a part of bed that is bulged out from the bed

The Russian word подушка/poduška (pillow) explains the Serbo-Slavic word dušek (mattress),
because poduška is derived from Serbo-Salvic podloga (substratum, pillow, background,
backing, bedding, basis, floor, bottom), Serb. podloška (pillow, groundwork, pad, bed); it means
that 'dušek' (mattress) is an apheresis of the Serb-Slavic word 'po-dloška' (bed). Turkish döşek
(bed, mattress) is a clear-cut borrowing from Serbo-Slavic.

Butina (thigh) is also related to above-mentioned Serbo-Salvic podloga (base); the same
compund word from which English foot and leg were derived; cf. Ice. fótleggur.

Kobasica appeared be related to Sanskrit gopas (shepherd), but it came from the above-
mentioned Serbian okov (fetter) and verbs okivati (shackle, band) and očuvati (keep, preserve,
beware). Logically, nothing can be preserved if it is not "fettered" or "fastned" or put into a
shackles (cage); therefrom, kobasica is a food that can be preserved from decaying for a long
period (shepherd's food); cf. Serbian čoban (shepherd), čuvanje (keeping), okivanje (shackling).

Turkish oda (room; Turkmen otag) is probably related to Serbian odaja (room); but Serbian
odaja is just one of the forms of the words as odeljenje (section, department; cf. Ger. Teil, Eng.
deal) or odeljak (Ger. Abteil); from the Serbo-Slavic deliti (devide, separate).

Vampir (vampire) is the only word that allegedly was borrowed from Serbian although that word
seems to be more related to Latin vapor (steam); yes, it could also come from Serbo-Slavic
upariti (to steam; para steam); cf. Old Russian упирь (vampire); here it would be interesting to
mention that English spirit (from Lat. spiritus soul) sounds almost the same as Serbian ispariti
(steam out) and ispiriti (to exhale, expire!!).
Serbian and Turkish pamuk is a loanword from Greek βαμβακιον (cotton; βαμβάκι); akin to
Persian pambe (cotton);

Serbian kutija (box) is related to Serbian words kut (ugao), ćošak (ugao), kocka (cube; cf. Serb.
ćoškast = kockast /cubelike/), kuća (house);

Leš (corpse) is probably related to Serbian verb 'ležati' (lie down); cf. Serb. syntagma "leži
mrtav" (he lies dead);

Kovrdža (curl) comes from kvrga (bump, nub), kvržica (a small nub), kurgan; cf. Serb. kvrgast
knotty (from krug /circle/); opposite to kvrga is jaruga/jarak (ditch, furrow, harrow, Lat. corrugo -

Čelik (steel; kako se kalio čelik; Ostrovsky's novel "How the Steel Was Tempered"); from Serbo-
Slavic kaliti (to steel; Russ. за-каляю); Czech ocel (steel); Serb. očeličiti (to steel, harden);
okaliti/ prekaliti (harden, steel);

Budala (fool); metathesis from Serbian poludeti (mad, madden, craze), bludeti (wanton); bludeo
- poludeo - budala; hence the Serbian adverb podlo (meanly); podlost (baseness);

Kapija (gate) is from Serbian poklopac (cover, lid), oklapati, za- klapati (to cover, close); Serb.
"za-klopi kapiju" (close the gate; oklop /shell/ => klapija => kapija);

Sapun (soap); related to Serbian 'sipanje' (pour) and za-peniti (to foam); cf. Serb. sapunati (to
soap; za-peniti <=> sa-punati);

Barut (gunpowder); from Serbo-Slavic prah/porah (dust; Russ. порох); from Serb. prsnuti (burst,
break, explode, spray; Lat. aspergo spray); cf. Serb. brašno (flour; Ukr. борошно), Russ.
порошок; Arabic barud; Greek πυρίτιδα, μπαρούτι; Aramaic b@rwt, ˁaprā dust; Akkadian eperu
(dust; cf. Serbian pra' dust, gunpowder). According to Xurbelanum HSF formula the basis of all
the above words is Bel-Hor-Gon (Latin pulvereus!)...
Džep (pocket; Arabic jaib); also gajba (cage); cf. Serb. kavez; Ita. gabbia (cage); from the Gon-
Bel basis, kibla, kabal, kabao, kofa; from Serbian kupilo (bucket, cupel), okupljati (to gather
together); English gap (?)

Sat (Turkish saat; Turkmen sagat; Hebrew sha`ah /hour/)... Aramaic šāˁtā (moment of time)
could be compared to the Serbian adverb 'sada' (now); Serb. vreme sadašnje (present tense);
Russ. сегодня/ sevodnya (today); South-Serbian секогаш/sekogaš (ever, forever); svaki all,
ever; zauvek forever; Latin secunda... I hope, now you are able to understand that the word sat
(hour) is a clear.cut IE word that cannot be explain neither in Turkish nor Semitic languages.

Dželat (executioner; Turkish cellat); cf. gallows; OE galga is related to Serbian kolac (pole; cf.
Turkish golcü executioner); In this case, dželat (executioner) is the Turkish loanword in Serbian
but this word originally started from Serbian 'kolac' (pole, pale). We all know that impaling was
the most favorite punishment in Dark Ages. Serb. kolac (pole) => Tur. golcü (executioner) =>
cellat/dželat (executioner).

Turkish çiçek (flower) is just another example of Serbian loanwords in Turkish. Namely, čičak (in
Serbian) doesn't mean flower but "thistle" and it is related to IE *keg- (hook; Serb. kuka) and
other Serbian words like kačiti (attach, to hook), čačkanje (pick; from kačkanje, kačenje hook,
hinge), čačkalica (toothpick).

Para (money; Serb. pare) is known in Persian (pârce piece, segment) but it is also a common IE
word (Eng. parcel, portion; Serb. parče piece; Lat. pars, partis).

Čizma (boot) is the Hungarian word (csizma); but Turkish bot, potin (boot) is borrowed from
Serbian botinke/patike/opanke (from Serb. verb obuti /to shoe/, obući/oblačiti clothe; Serb.
obuća shoes, obleka cloth).

Turkish/Arabic tavan (ceiling) and Serbian tavan (attic, loft) are very imteresting words
                                                                                    (shade, ceiling;
Arabic zallal dark) might be in connection with Serbian/Turkish/Arabic tavan. Serbo- Slavic
tamno (Russ. темный/temniy; Czech temný, tma, tajemný, tmavý, temno; Serb. tmina darkness,
po-tamnilo darkened) is derived from Gon- Bel-Gon basis similar to the other Serbian words as
dubina (deepness), tamnica/tavnica (prison, jail). In case of the Serbian words tavan/ taman
(dark) the b=>m sound change is clearly visible. Serbian tavan (loft) and tavanica (ceiling) are
clearly related to Serbian tavnica/ tamnica (prison, jail). In reality, ancient man realized that as
you go deeper (Serbian dubina) under the ground the environment is getting more and more
dark (Serb. tavno/tamno); it means that prison is a dark space as well as it is the space above
the ceiling - Serb. tavan (loft, attic).
Finally, if we compare English ceiling and cellar/cell (German Keller basement; from Latin celare
con-cealing, covering, hiding) we will be able to understand the logic of the development of
Serbo-Slavic words tavan (loft), tavanica, tavnica (ceiling), tavnica/tamnica (prison) and
tavan/taman (dark; tmina darkness).

Bukva; Prečka <=> Bridge; Most <=> Mast

Sunday, 27. January 2008, 20:01:33

Schenker wrongly claimed that the Slavic languages "lacked a native term for beech".

What arguments he could present to prove that Slavic buk/bukva is a borrowing from
Germanic/Gothic bok? On the other hand, is there any proof that could corroborate that the
word bok/book/beech is of an undisputed Germanic origin? What are we going to do with Latin
sambucus (elder-tree), Russian базина, Serbian žbun (bush), smokva (fig-tree).

Namely, all the Slavic words mentioned above are related to the following Slavic words: beleg
(mark, landmark, nick, scotch), beležiti (note, mark, notice), pisati (write; from Bel-Gon beleg =>
beležiti => blisati => pisati), beležnica (notebook). If we know that beech tablets were used as
writing surfaces in the ancient times we must come to a conclusion that the Slavic word
buk/bukva (beech) cannot be the Germanic loanword; i.e. bukva (beech) is a clear-cut Slavic

For instance, Serbian pisar (scribe) is equal to English booker and it means that both words
were independently developed from the same basis.
A similar relation could be found among words as English block, plunk, log and Serbian oblog
(lining, sheath), oblica (wooden cylinder), panj (log), pladanj (a sheet of wood, plate, tray).

It seems that German Wald (wood, forest) is clearly related to English wood, is it not? In
addition, there are the words as English wild and German Gewalt (force, violence). What is the
relation between English wood and German Wut (wroth, rage, ire).


“Proto-Slavic had no maritime terminology whatsoever, be it in the domain of seafaring, sea
fishing, boat building, or sea trade.”

(The Dawn of Slavic; An Introduction to Slavic Philology; Alexander M. Schenker)

This is really crazy!
Schenker also claimed, "Proto-Slavic had no maritime terminology" at all! What Schenker tried
to achieve by such absurd statement? For instance, it is much more difficult to explain the
history of the English word "mast" than the history of the Serbo-Slavic word most (bridge),
motka (pole). In Serbian, most is related to the other Serbian/Slavic words as mesto (place;
Czech misto, Russ. место), premestiti (transfer; Czech přemísťovat; Russ. переместить),
prenositi (transfer; Czech přenášet, přenést; Russ. переносить; Slovene prenesti) and
premostiti (bridge over; Czech přemostit).

In Serbo-Slavic, most (bridge) was "born" from the prefixed word pre-most-iti. Pre-mostiti literally
means "to bring over"; i.e. in this case "to go over to other side of river" (Serb. preko over,
beyond; Russ. пере-, Czech přes; cf. Lat. perago /to pass through/). Now we can see that the
ur-basis of all the above words is - Br-Gon. Of course, the first syllable Br- is a reduced
(assimilated) form of Bel-Hor (bel-kret => pokret /movement/ => obrtati/vrteti => rotate).

English bridge is clearly related to the verb bring in the same way as Serbian pritka/prečka
(crossbar; Czech příčka; Russ. по-перечная балка /crossbeam/) is related to the Serbian verbs
'prineti/preneti' (bring, bring over; Czech přinášet, přines; Russ. переносить; Slovene prenašati)
and 'preći' (cross over; Czech přejít, přejet, přejíždět). From this moment on, we can understand
why the English words bridge and mast are closely related to Serbian/Slavic words prečka
(crossbar) and most (bridge).

Furthermore, it becomes clear that the Slavic noun most (bridge) sprang from the above
mentioned verbs prenositi (bring over, carry over, transfer) and premostiti (bridge over); pre-
nositi => pre-mosit/i => most (n => m sound change). From the same Br-Gon basis is derived
Serbian/Slavic prečka (crossbar); i.e. from preneti (bring over, transfer) => preći (cross over) =>
prečka (crossbar).
Prečka <=> Bridge; Most <=> Mast

Vishnu is a distant cousin of Calypso

Monday, 21. January 2008, 19:56:24

This text underneath is a small example showing the way in which the linguistics (especially
historical) should be treated with care, experience and philosophical attention. If you compare
all the words I mentioned below you will see a great number of phonetic changes (some regular
and much more irregular), which clearly indicate that phonetics and phonology cannot be the
basic sub-disciplines for the understanding of the development of language/s. As I told many
times, the primary weapon of the linguistics should be the semantics and the philosophy of

Vishnu is the Supreme Being equal to Serbian Višnji (Lord) or Sve-višnji (Almighty). This name
is derived from Bel-Gon ur-basis. Name Vishnu could be compared to English 'big' and Serbian
velik (big; cf. Lat. pollex the big toe; Eng. bulge; Serb. buđža big man, but, club). Sanskrit
Vishnu and Serbian Višnji are the words referring to 'height' or 'highness' (Serb. visina height).
Indirectly, these words are also connected to the Serbian words blag (benign, mild) and blažen
(blessed). Serbian syntagm "blagi Bog" (the merciful God) clearly shows that Serbian modern
name for god (bog) is derived from Bel-Gon basis; i.e. from the word velik (velik <= belik =>
bulge => big).
I hope there is no need to point out that English words big, bulge and bless clearly correspond
to Serbian velik (big), budža (big man), and blažen (blessed). In addition, we must say that
Serbian visina (height) is related to the verb visiti (hang) and adjective obešen/ovešen (hanged,
suspended; cf. Serb.vešanje hanging; vešala gallows). The Serbian adjective obešen indicates
that all the above-mentioned words are the cognates of the Serbian word nebo (sky) and Latin
nebula. Following the simple laws of Xu -     -

                             (cloud), Latin nebula and German Nebel. The basic meaning of the
Greek word k                                 /kalybe) is "to cover with" and it is the older cognate
of the "modern" cap (Serb. kapa /cap/ and kaput /coat/).

                                                   (clouds), Serb. oblak (cloud) and even Serbian
koliba (hut). Also it bacame clear that Greek Calypso was a nymph and her name originated
from the Gon-Bel-Gon basis, wherefrom originated all the above Greek, English and Serbian
words (cf. Latin. nimbus). In fact, the sky (or clouds) was understood as a kind of cover/armor
around the body of Earth (Serb. oklop armor, cover).

Calypso and nimph are the words that sprang from the same ur-basis (above-mentioned Gon-
Bel-Gon) and their literal meaning is "covering". Of course, in this case we know that nymphs
are spiritual and "veiled" (concealed) creatures and Calypso is also "covered" (Greek kalypto /to
cover/; Serb. oklopiti cover) with "clouds" and hardly visible.

Conclusion: Vishnu is a distant cousin of Calypso!

Obsolete Vasmer

Sunday, 20. January 2008, 09:41:20

I am not into th etype "evidence" you present. I don't believe in your methodology and neither
does mainstream linguistics. konak was present in turkish before turks had contect with serbs
and has an internal turkic etymology for me that is enough. if it is not enough for you I am not
going to waste time over it.

Yusuf B. Gursey

Why didn't you quote Vasmer:
                                                               -- то же. Заимств. из тур. kоnаk
"большой, красивый дом, дворец" (Радлов 2, 536 и сл.) от konmak "жить"; см. Мi. ТЕl. 1,
334; Доп. 2, 151; Бернекер 1, 557...]

Vasmer also believed that Slavic 'konak' was the borrowing from Turkish. Unfortunately,
Vasmer's dictionary is an obsolete and often invalid etymological source and every serious
linguist knows that he cannot take Vasmer's book as a reliable reference. Interesting, Vasmer
wrote that 'konak' is "княжеский дворец" (knjažeskiy dvaryec; the castle of the prince), but he
didn't realized that if the word konak were of Turkish origin the same would apply to the Serbo-
Slavic word knez (prince; Russ. князь; from kneg; cf. Serb kneginja princess).

Not only that Vasmer hadn't seen the above illogicality but he continued to fall into a complete
confusion by adding that Slavic 'knez' was a borrowing from Ur-Germanic *kuningaz. Of course,
any sound-minded person would see that something was wrong: it would be impossible that
konak (castle) was of Turkish origin while konak's owner - knez/kneg - was the "lord of
Germanic provenience".

As I already told, konak is a clear-cut Serbo-Slavic and Indo-Europen word that can easily be
traced in many words as canton, Serb. konak (billet), kuća (house), katun (hut), Slov. hiša
(house), Eng. house, hut. There are thousands and thousands of words that sprang from the
primeval reduplicated Gon basis. Finally, there are a great number of Serbian words (beside
konac thread) related to 'konak' like konačište (the resting place; also known as kućište, from
kunčište => kuća house), okončati (finish, die, perish), konačno (finally), kančelo (the roll of
(Non)Historical "h"

Saturday, 19. January 2008, 18:32:04

I wouldn't take this hypothesis as much possible, I mean intervocalic h as a mark of hiatus and
especially as a mark of the length of the preceding vowel.

Let us compare Latin nihil, negatio, nullus and we will maybe be able to see that the sound h is
quite natural in this case. Nullus is just a simple assimilation of the sounds in the word nihil
(nihilum => nullum). Serbian words nekati (deny) and neću (I won't; assimilated ne-hoću will not)
are clearly related to Latin negatio. Later on, Serbo-Slavic nekati has transformed itself to
Serbian niko (nobody; Russ, никто/nikto; Czech nikoho, nikdo) and ništa (nothing; Russ. ничто;
Czech nic, ničeho, ničem). In addition, there is Serbian word ništavilo (nothingness; Gon-Gon-
Bel basis; compound word: ništa / nothing/ + bilo /exist/). In case of Serbian ništa, German nicht
and English nothing (from nohting; cf. Serbian ništenje /annulment/) there is a well visible loss of
the vowel a (Serb. nekati /deny/) => Russ.nikto /nobody/ => ničto => ništa /nothing/). Above
analysis clearly shows that Latin "intervocalic" h is a "normal" and regular sound, which in some
"negation" words appeared as glottal, in other as velars or fricatives and in third, it disappears

There is no and there has never been an inserted (non-etymological) 'h' at least among
Romance, Slavic and Germanic languages. On the other side, there are thousands and
thousands of IE words where the historical 'h' has been lost.

There is nothing unusual about such a vowel gemination as 'ii'; it is always triggered by the loss
of glottal (Cf. Eng. seing, Ger. sehen and sight/Sicht; Eng. vehicle and Serbian vozilo /vehicle/;
vozi-ko-lo). Latin vehemens, just like veho, is the word that has been derived from the Bel-Gon
ur-basis and that can be compared to Serbian besneti (rampage) or more closer to Serbian
besomučan (amuck; be-so-mu-čan <=> ve-he-me-nt). In reality, the history of those words is
very simple: they started from the same Bel-Gon ur-basis where the Serbian word pogon (drive;
from pol-gon; cf. Latin pulsus push, drive) sprang from.
As I already told many times, the primeval Bel-Gon basis was branched into the three main
directions: 1) form (oblo, oval; round shape of the sun)
2) fire (light, blast, heat); cf. Serbian ispaliti <=> explode
3) water (flow, flood, tide etc.)

The End of Konac

Saturday, 19. January 2008, 18:11:13

The English word 'end' is a cognate of the Slavic word 'konac' (end). Is there anyone who could
explain how it happend?

Please, do not be shy or afraid to express your opinion on the above theme. You cannot reach
new frontiers of knowledge without entering the fields of unexpected and unknown. Do not let
your life pass in false beliefs and wrong postulates imposed by those who have never really
understand the way in which the human speech has been developing for millenniums.

Maybe you need some additional information to get your brain-cells ignited?
English canton, canteen, hut, and house; Serbian konak, katun (billet), kuća (house; cf. Slov.
hiša), kutija (box): English night; Serbian noć; English knit, net; Serbian konac, nit (thread, cord,

It presumably isn't a cognate. Turkish "ko-" (v.t., "settle", "cause to stop") -> kon-" (v.i., "stop",
"settle down") -> "konak" ("resting place", in particular an official residence for an Ottoman
bureaucrat in a colonized territory like Serbia). Jack Campin

Of course it is. Above Turkish 'konak' is a loanword from Serbian; cf. Russian
конечный/kanechniy (ultimate, ending) Serbian konačiti (spend the night, lodging), konac (end);
Czech konec (end)
There is Serbian and Bulgarian syntagm "na koncu konca" (at the end of a thread) that explains
the relation between the word 'thread' (cord, fiber) and the word 'end'. It means that at the end
of a day (day activities are understood as a thread) you must find a place where you can spend
the night (Serb. konak billet).

I later explained it.

Yusuf B, Gursey

You explained nothing. You just said that kon- meant "alight, settle on a place". In Serbian, the
word konak is far more transparent. It is related to the following words: goniti (drive),
gnjeti/gnječiti (knead), nit/konac (thread), noć (night). It means that the word 'konak' is a clear-
cut IE word (I already mentioned canton, canteen, kitchen, kuća (house). Eventually, someone
is going to ask, what is the connection between konac (thread, fiber, cord) and konak (billet,
lodging)? In Serbian, konac is related to ukinuće (abolition, elimination), uginuće (death) and
okončanje (the end, finish). Philosophically taken it means, if you had followed a thread (of
events etc.) you would certainly have reached its end. Moreover, logically, when you reached
the end there was a right moment for resting (Serb. konak resting place).

One thing is very important here: how it happened that Serbian konac (thread, cord, and fiber)
became not only konak (billet) but also it seems that konac "created" the Slavic word noć (night;
Russ. ночь; Czech noc, noční)? Yes, of course, when you have reached the end of a "thread"
you cannot do anything else - you must stop (and rest)! On the other side, if you have reached
the end of a thread you must be entering the Nothing (Serb. ništa) or Nothingness (Serb.
ništavilo). Now we can clearly see that the Slavic noch (night) is equal to ništa (nothing) and
ništavilo (nothingness); i.e. Slavic "night" is the place where "thread" ends and nothingness
enters the scene.

Finally, if you could make a similar and closely understandable parallel to 'kon-' in Turkish
language as I made in Serbian than you would be able to prove that the word 'konak' sprang
from the Turkish vocabulary. Etymology and linguistic in general must become serious sciences
as soon as possible; if not, we would be able to 'prove' that "Martian language" was a substrate
on which all the earthly languages were based and developed.
Laryngeal Theory Foam Bubbles

Wednesday, 16. January 2008, 10:58:24

The so-called Laryngeal Theory is a sort of "serious" joke or a sweet delusion in which one can
prove his linguistic (scientific) human-hyper-knowledge. In reality, Laryngeal Theory serves only
to scare the people away of that "complicated" chemistry-like (H20          ) "precise" noesis.
Saussure was the first who predicted the former existence and later development of the PIE
"laryngeals" (in reality mostly velars and glottal).

Of course, Saussure was right that some "laryngeals" were lost, especially those placed at the
beginning of word. It means that none of the IE words has originally started with a vowel as an
initial sound. If a "laryngeal" is placed in the middle of word it means that that word is a
compound word; i.e. that "laryngeal is always the initial sound of the second (or third) "member"
of the compound word. Also, there are "laryngeals" at the end of word and they are denoting a
certain kind of motion related to subject.

For instance, German word 'enge' (density, narrowness, thight) originally sounded as (H)enge
(according to my Xur-Bel-Gon theory 'enge' comes from the reduplicated Gon basis). Farther,
we could see that German 'enge' (from henge) is related to English dense (born from condense;
gon-gen-ge; cf. dick/ness) wherefrom sprang a spectar of Serbian words as gusto (dense),
usko/uzak (narrow), sužen (narrowed), s/taza/sokak (narrow path), nagon (impulse), gun-gu-la
(crowed), utegnut (tight).

Now let us scrutinize the English words dense, tight, dick: are those words born from the same
basis as the above-mentioned German 'enge'? Certainly, they are! Things are getting more
dense when pressured or _kneaded (knead = Serb. gnjeti/gnječiti). Finally, at the "end" of our
narrow road from "enge" we ended in a "kitchen" with a "gusto" and "ukusno" (tasty) "dough-

If I say that English dough and dense are closely related to Serbian testo (dhough) and that
'end' is closely related to 'enge' and Serbo-Slavic 'konac' (end) you will maybe be able to
understand that "laryngeal Theory" is nothing else but a big and vacant foam bubble.
Furthermore, that foam bubble is going to turn into nothing with the first sound thought of an
unfettered thinker.

The Blossomed Wheat

Sunday, 13. January 2008, 18:18:57

B&L quote Lithuanian <kvietỹs> as a Germanic loan. Obviously so, as Lithuanian would have
šv- in an inherited word. I think the initial kv- dates the loan as either very old (Pre-Germanic) or
fairly recent from some dialect with *hW- > /kv-/. Nowadays that feature is limited to West
Scandinavian (including(?) Shetland) and some subgroup of Finland Swedish, and, since I'm
not aware of a wider distribution historically, I'll go for Pre-Germanic. I suppose that the long y
supports the reconstruction of a (Pre-)Germanic *-ija.

Trond Engen

There are other Lithuanian words beside kvietys (wheat), like kviesti (invite, ask) and kvitas
(receipt). The corresponding Serbian words to those Lithuanian could be 'cvet' (flower), kazati
(say) and hvat/ati (catch). All the words mentioned above are derived from the Gon-Bel-Gon
basis. We shall also see that words kviesti and kazati are comparable to English ask (Serb.
iskati, iskazati, Russ. skazat). Last time I compared wheat with wet (Latin aqua, Serbian kvasiti)
and now it seems we can do the same with the Serbian verb okusiti (taste; from okvasiti /soak,
suffuse/ => okusti /taste/; cf. Latin gusto). Nevertheless, this similarity appears to be accidental,
thanks to the common Gon-Bel-Gon basis those words were delivered from.

The common "denominator" for the "senses" in Serbian language is the word čula (senses).
Many unusual sound and morphological changes occurred in the process in which a primitive
agglutinated form close to 'hneblhna' was "rearranged" into 'okolina' (surrounding; Lat. accola
neighbor and conlegium corporation, guild) and finally "molded" into the modern Serbian word
'čula' (senses). Serbian 'slušati' (hear; from o/sluhnuti; Greek ακούω, ακουστικος acoustic)
sprang from the same source as 'čula'.
Sometimes, the meanings of certain senses do not share much with the organs where that
senses are placed. For instance, Serbian ukus (taste; Lat. gustus) and verb okusiti (to taste) are
more related to oko (eye) and uho (ear) than to usta (mouth). At the same time 'usta' (mouth)
are related to verbs okusiti (taste), 'ujesti' (bite) and jesti (eat). The same case is with words
kazati (say) and iskati (ask). Serbian kazati (say) comes from ukazati (to point out) and it
means, "to perceive with eyes". Similar logic is in case of the word okusiti (taste) because we
need to say (kazati) what we have tasted. In other words, our tasting organs are "telling" (kazati)
us what are we eating (jesti).

My above proposition that the Serbian words okusiti (taste) and kusati/jesti (eat) might be
related to aqua and Serbian verb 'ukvasiti' (soak) appeared to be completely wrong.

Let us now see what the relation could be between Lithuanian kvietys (wheat) and Slavic
cvet/kvet (flower). As we all know, there is know visible wheat flowering and it suggests that
these two words (kvietys, kvet) cannot be directly related. On the other side, the process of
flowering is usually connected to white color (best visible on the bloomed trees; English
blossom; Lat. flos), what could lead us to Slavic svitanje (dawning, whitening) and *svet-lo (light,
visible, white; svitanje (dawning) => cvetanje (flowering).

The Slavic Name for Germans - Nemci (Deutscher = Teacher)

Sunday, 13. January 2008, 12:41:25

BTW, interesting is, that it was probably the Celts who were called "non-speaking" first, and only
later the Germans.

The Slavic name for Germans (Nemci) has nothing to do with the Slavic word 'nem' (mute,
dumb) as well as Slavic word 'slovo' (letter, word) is not the source of the name of Slavs. It
means that the "mute" origin of the Slavic name Nemci is an example of the "first-class" folk-
etymological "resoluteness".
For instance, using the same (wrong) logic, the Serbian royal family of Nemanides (Nemanići)
could be related to 'neman' (monster), although it must be clearly known that Nemanjići are
related to the words as Slavic kneg/knez (prince), German king or Latin negus (king, Czar);
negotiosus (buisy), Serbian nega (care). All these words are derived from the reduplicated Gon
basis, from which, of course, appeared the word 'nem' (mute) too.

The other Serbian royal family, the Montegrian Njegos (from the Heraković brotherhood) is
derived from the same reduplicated Gon basis as the name of the Serbian Great Zoupan
Nemanja (Gne-Gna). Compare the Serbian adjectives Nemanjićki (of Nemanides) and Nemački

It means that Slavic people highly respected Germans as skilled and diligent humans, as
knights (good warriors) and as people of knowledge (Slavic znanje /knowledge/ and nauka
/science/; naučno scientific, from gna-u-gno); i.e. Nemci were respected by Slavs as 'umni'
(intelligent; from gnumni => hnumi => num; not from numb but from gnome (Slavic znam; know;
Greek γνώμη); Serbian kum (godfather); Latin homo man)

Compare Italian Lamagna (Germany); Spanish alemana (German); Alemania (Germany);
French Alle/magne (Germany) and Italian Tedesco; all words related either to man (gross-man,
Serb. ogro-man big) or to nobleman/ duke (Serbian douka /lerning/, đak /student/; Greek
διάκονος deacon; German Denken; think and teach;
cf. Deutscher = Teacher shows how the Germans were highly praised in England). .

Vrlet and World

Sunday, 13. January 2008, 12:34:14

The name looks unmistakenly English and a quick web search tells me that Whatley is the
name of a village in Somerset (). If your ancestors are Norman they certainly didn't bring that
name with them. The name is supposed to mean "wet-glade".
Similar to Serbian surname Vodelinić (wet-valley; wet-dell), Vodlić; Vodli village in Moldavia (of
Slavic origin), Russian personal Виталий Vitaliy, supposed to be a form of Latin Vitalis (Ita.
Vitale); Russ. ветла vetla (willow, withy);

It is interest                                    -                                                    -
          -                                   as well as it is related to English living. To
understand how it happened we must use Xur-Bel-Gon speech formula (HSF) and start from the
primal agglutinated form 'gibelgne' (from the Gon-Bel-Gon ur-basis), wherefrom Serbian
kobeljanje (roll about), gibeljanje => gibanje (motion); hence gibeljanje => ži-bljenje => življenje
From ži-bljenje sprang the Serbian word biće (being) and bihenje => biuenje => bivanje
(existence; hence bivak bivouac).

                                                                                    ) and victus
(from behagne, being, biće).

On the other side, English white is more complicated. If the word 'white' were related to Slavic
svetlo (light) and svitanje (dawning) then we would again go to the above mentioned Gon-Bel-
Gon basis. Namely, Slavic *svit- comes from *hosvit- (Serb. osvetljenje illumination, luminance,
lighting) or more precize from *gnobel- => gabel => *zabel- ; Serb. zabeleti whiten. Not
incidentally, this zabeleti (whiten) is related to the Serbian word nebo (sky); Serb. "zora beli"
(the dawn whitens). This zabeleti "shrank" later to zbelet => svelet => svelt => svet (world). We
can see here that German Welt could be a corresponding word to Slavic svelt => svet (world).

It is supposed that English "world" came from were-old (old man, "age of man") but there is little
credible evidence that it would come that way. Some Germanic form similar to *huerelh' might
have been existing in earlear times. If it were true it would mean that the word "world" was
derived from Hor-Bel-Gon basis; i.e. from hurwelt => urwelt => wurwelt => wereld => world. At
the same time, it would explain the difference between English world and German welt.

Even the Salvic word 'svet' (world) could be an 'descendant' of the same Hor-Bel-Gon basis; i.e.
it could be derived from the above- mentioned 'zora bela' (white dawn); hurbelt => survelt =>
svelt => svet. Serbian word vrlet (craggy area); cf. Serbian syntagm "vrletan svet" (worthy

At this moment we could return back to the beginning of this "story" and "revise" the meaning of
a supposed Englihs *were- (man) and Latin virilis, which appears to be equal to Serbian vrlina
(virtue). It seems that English "worldly" and "worth(l)y" are the words derived from the same
place of origin?; similar as Serbian words 'vrletan'/ 'vrli' (virile) and 'vredan' (worthy).

Wet Wheat/Oat

Saturday, 12. January 2008, 21:35:35

In essence, if the equivalent Modern English word sound is akin to "whatte", than would you
concur that a 6th century Saxon would likely describe "wheat growing in a meadow" as
"hwaetele" wherein the pronunciation would be "whatte-ley"?

This is a very interesting discussion! Let me compare the Serbian word 'pšenica' and English
'wheat'. Would anyone have ever supposed that these two words appeared from the same Ur-
basis? Probably not! And the man who would propose something like that (as I intend to do right
now) would probably be treated as a complete ignoramus or a nut case. Considering the fact
that I am just about to make such a proposal, what do you think I am: a crackpot or not?

Namely, I am not 100% sure is English oats is related to wheat, but comparing it with ON hafri,
Latin avena (oats) and Serbian ovas (oats) both these words (wheat and oat) should be
offspring of the same "parent". Similar is with the Serbian words 'pšenica' (wheat) and 'ovas'
(oat). As I underline many times before, there were no IE word, which could originally begin with
a wovel as an initial sound. It means that 'ovas' and 'avena' firstly sounded as 'hovas' and

The biggest surprise is still to come. All the above-mentioned words have nothing to do with
some of the inherent characteristics of wheat or oat but are related to water! Formal comparsion
of English wheat/ oat with word wet should be one of the serious reasons for a deeper
investigation of my above statement.
One of the main Serbian meals for centuries was a meal called "ovsena kaša" (oat soup). That
oatmeal was also called 'kvašenica' ('kaša' / soup/ is a shortened form of 'kvašenica') because it
was prepared of no other ingredients instead of oat flour and water (eventually salted). That
'kvašenica' (ovsena kaša) could be translated to English as "wetted oat".

At the same time, this 'kvašenica' was also named as 'ovsenica' (ovsena kaša again or "wet
oat") and by applying the Saussure's Theory in the sense that its author imagined it (and not in
sense of Cyba-Cave gurus) we are getting the word 'hovsenica'; i.e. above 'kvašenica' (made of
ovas or hovas /oats/).

Finally, I must add that 'kvašenica' is derived from the noun 'kvašenje' (soak, suffusion) and
verbs 'kvasiti', ukvasiti', which are then related to Latin aqua and aquaticus. The Serbian word
'pšenica' came from 'hovsenica' or 'ovsenica/obsenica' => pšenica.
So the final conclusion might be:
Eng. wheat => oat
Serb. ovas (oats) <= ovsenica/kvašenica => pšenica (wheat)
I wonder if there was any English (Germanic) meal made of wheat or oat that was named close
to "wet oat", "quas-' or something similar?

Cybalist Egg(b)eaters

Saturday, 12. January 2008, 14:07:30

I am led, by various considerations, to hypothesize that the earliest form behind *o:u(a), egg,
was *wawaH(a)

Except that it's not *o:u(a), but rather *o:wyo-. *h2, actually, if this is indeed a derivative of
*h2ewi- 'bird'.
Maybe it would be interesting to cast a look into the Cyba-Cavelist yard and see what the
people are chewing there at the moment. They are just discussing which one came to earth first,
an Egg or a Hen? One Cave-explorer says that H3en must be older than wawaHa, while other
claims it is H2en. Obviously, they are both agree that egg (*o:u(a:) or *o:wyo-) is younger than
Hen and they only have to solve which Hen (H1, H2, H3) birthed Egg.

My Xur-Bel-Gon speech formula is telling me that the basis Gon-Bel-Gon is the "originator" of
the word egg (Serb. jaje, jajce). Of course, Cyba-Cave "experts" will say it is not possible and a
"sound mind" will repeat their words. Those expert "know" that nothing reasonable can be found
out of their Cyba-Cave-Larynx-Digger-List.

Final decision is being brought by the chieftain Cyba-Cave guru who concludes this senselees
inter-cave-larynx-shoveling dispute:

But *h2o:wj-o- is a bit unlikely (why the long *o:?), so the word may be something like *o-h2wj-o-
instead (with Rasmussen's O-fix?).

Namely, it is not *h2o:wj-o- but *o-h2wj-o-! Although the Pope is no more a Pole Cyba-Cave
spiritual leader is still considered infallible.

I understand why Cyba-Cave-experts are unable to find the exit opening and cannot get out into
the fresh air. They have no light down there, they are living in a dreamland, gloomy dreamland.

Interesting, egg has been born from the same basis from which sprang the sky, heaven and
eard. Egg is compared to oblak; i.e. to gn/oblak the form that gave birth not only to oblak (cloud)
but also to nebo (sky) and zemlja (earth). These three "elements" are having the round form
(Serb. oblo; from gn/oblo). Egg is round (Serb zaobljeno /round/) but it is also zemljano

Gon-Bel-Gon basis; i.e. gnoblak or goblak, beside G/nobility "wombed" apple and ovum,
Serbian ovojnica (placenta) and Czech vejce (egg). How then it happened that jaje and egg
sound so differently from ovum although their appeared from the same source. Here we have to
call Serbian kajgana (scrambled eggs) for help: kabljgana => kaljgana => kajgana => hajgana
=> jajgana => jajèana (of egg) => jajce (egg).

I hope, now even the Great-Cyba-Cave-Guru would be able to grasp where the words egg, jaje,
jajce und vejce were derived from.


The process of the development of the IE languages is much simpler than those paradigms that
the modern linguistic science is trying to present as an acme of "wiseness". If you could
understand how Czech vejce is related to placenta (Serbian plahta, plašt; from obleka cloth; Gr.
πλατος plane surface; πλακοεις flat) via the adjective vejcovitý (ovoid) Serbian ovojnica
(placenta) and ovum, ovi; i.e. that oval is related to plain and flat because the both meanings
are coming from the same ur-basis, you are on a good way to realize the main principles on
which IE languages were developed.

For instance, English word please is derived from the same basis as all the above words;
please is related to Latin placeo and placidus as well as it is related to the Serbian adjective
blag, blažen (placid, quiet, gentle). Of course, English please is not directly related to Serbian
oblak (cloud), but indirectly and with a few (understandable) semantic aberrations it is: Serbian
blizu (close) and blizina (nearness, closeness; Czech blízko) are not directly related to Serbian
bulazniti/poludeti (to get crazy) or Czech blázen (fool, crackpot ;-) but indirectly it also came
from Bel-Gon basis: from oblaganje (linen, coating, clothing) => bliženje (getting closer as cloud
do to the sun); on the other side this oblaganje (bliženje) and oblak causes the well known
weather deterioration and a strong pulse (ex-plosions; Serb. is-pucati from is-pulk-); i.e. the
thundering wheref Serbian buka (noise; from blkanje => bukanje), vikanje (shouting; Serb. viče
he shouts) and Latin vox vocis (voice) were born...

Freising Manuscripts

Saturday, 12. January 2008, 13:49:12
Type Freising Manuscripts into Google and see about Slovene texts written sometime between
972 and 1093, most likely before 1000. Wiki shows photos of it. It is amazingly readable
document. The language is easy. The script, Carolingian minuscule, is easily readable, much
more so than the later Blackletter/Gothic miniscule. It looks almost modern. The later Gothic
script was used in Europe after 1150.


No, it was not Slovene but some of the South-Slavic dialects; compare Serbian and Slovenian
translation of the beginning of the Freising munuscript (click the link below) and you will see that
this part of the text is even closer to Serbian than Slovenian.

The language of South Slavs was called for centuries either Slavonic or Serbian. Slovene
(Slovenian) is the modern, IXX century "coinage".
In fact, Slovenes just took the old common Slavic name (Sloveni) and continued to use it as
their own.
The same happened to Slovaks and Slavonians.

J. Fine's book "When Ethnicity Did Not Matter in the Balkans" is a good literature for all those
who want to learn more about the history of the Balkan Slavs.

A Knowingly Ανάλυσις

Saturday, 12. January 2008, 13:30:39

What is the history of the word analysis (Gr. ανάλυσις, αναλύω)? Is the word analysis related to
Serbian nalaz (finding; Chech nález) and adjective znalački (knowingly). The analogy "says"
that the Serbian syntagm "nalaziti analogiju" (find the analogy) is a pleonasm. What
"knowledge" has to do with an "analitical analogy" and Serbian words 'znalački' (knowingly;
Czech znalosti knowledge) and 'nalaz' (finding)? Let's see (after a deep "analysis of
knowledge") what our findings might be?

Pappekak! Slavic na- in "nalaz" is a prefix. Gr. "lysis" means anything? What "knowledge" has to
do with an "analitical analogy" and Serbian words 'znalački' (knowingly; Czech znalosti
knowledge) and 'nalaz' (finding)?

Paul J Kriha

I new, you are a big papak (papak is a pejorative Serbian word for an ignoramus of your
caliber;literally it means 'a cattle foot').

Serbian pro-na-lazak (discovery) is double prefixed, is it not?       If 'nalaz' is prefixed (and I
agree it is), what is the meaning of the stem -laz-/-lag-? As you noticed yourself, Greek is also
prefixed? Serbian nalaziti (find); snalaziti se (be intelligent; to be adroit), snalaženje
(resourcefulness); snalažljiv (intelligent, adroit); hence Serbian znalački (knowingly, skillfully).
Serbian s-na-laziti is also double prefixed; sf. iz-na-laziti (to find out) => znalački (knowingly)!

Simply, I asked you this because -laz-/-lag- is not the stem of the word 'nalaz'. The stem is na;
i.e. g/na-, zna or na-. like in Slavic word nauka (science) or saznanje (cognition, discoveri),
znanost(science); cf. Latin agnitio (recognition), agnosco; Greek γνωτος (known), γνώση
(knowledge),σύνεσις (coming together, union, knowledge). If you are intelligent enough you will
see by yourself that Serbian word sagnati (bring together) and saznati (find out, know) are
clearly related to Greek σύνεσις and Latin science. All these words are derived from
reduplicated Gon basis.


Saturday, 12. January 2008, 13:00:27
The shift from *ps- to s- was possible, but the inverse shift from s- to ps- was impossible? I was
told recently that the losening of an initial p- was impossible in Celtic languages, but then I found
PIE *pella 'cliff, rock outcrop' Old Irish ail 'cliff', an initial p- gone lost in a Celtic language. So I
don't accept your simple No for an answer, there must have been a few rare cases where
Magdalenian S- became ps-.

Franz Gnaedinger

What about οψιανός λίθος (obsidian stone)?; according to Pliny named after its discoverer
Obsius. This Pliny's Obsius is equal to Serbian Pisa-rević (from pisati "write")

Greek όψη (aspect) matches to Serbian opis (description, the visual percept of a region, thing
etc.); also ὄψ ὀπός (the eye, face); therefore οπτικά (visually) and οπτασία (apparition) and
Latin obsessus (obsess). All these words were derived from the Bel-Gon primal-basis; cf.
German Beleg (evidence; belegen notice); Serbian beleg (landmark, scotch; beleška note); we
could understand the history of the Greek word opse if we compared it to Serbian beleg, beležiti
and the other words that
were derived from beležiti (noting, notice) as pisati (right) and opistai (describe).

I do not know where and how Pokorny found the root pster- because Greek πταίρω (sneeze) is
related either to English spit (from spilt, splutter; Serb. ispljunuti, iz-bljunuti /spit, ex-pel/) or it
corresponds to Serbian poterati and the basis of such words is Gon-Bel- Gon, Gon-Bel-Hor or
Bel-Hor. In neither way Greek 'ptairo' does happen to be in any connection with a "root" *pster-.
On the other side the Greek ψυχή (blow, soul, ghost) is "philosophically" related to Serbian
words duh (spirit, ghost) and duša (soul), because both words have the verb "blow" as a
substratum (Greek psyche /blow/ and Serbian dahnuti/dunuti blow, dah /breath, waft/). In
addition we can see that Greek psyche is related to Serbian puhanje (blowing) and pušenje
(smoking); i.e. that it was derived from
the Bel-Gon basis.
Piotr Gasiorowski's Miraculous Year of the Echoing Yule in July

Saturday, 5. January 2008, 22:21:19

Below is the message I found on Cyba-Cave List
Piotr Gasiorowski

If somebody did not know, Piotr Gasiorowski is the chief-commander on Cybalist-Cave-
Commune, the forum where comrades Brainy and Wordandgame are employed as very skilled
and respectable wardens.

I chose this message to show the way in which the leading Cybalist linguistic guru Piotr
Gasiorowski is exercising his "scientific" experience. Namely, we are going to see how
mercilessly Gasiorowski is mixing whatever he can grab from his surrounding, highly surpassing
the brainy mill grinder of a flamboyant and feverish young folk-etymologically-ignited word

1) Piotr starts with an “argument” he considers “undisputed” - an original neuter *jexWla-
(Unbegrenzung der Grenze), a safe zone from which you can go wherever you want and attack
whoever you want. In reality, this “safe zone” is a “no-man’s land” whose name is “Unknown”.
2) A little spice from “unstressed” Werner’s Law would not make any harm, even if it did not fit
into the specific sauce field.
3) Gasiorowski is taking a “crucial” example from Finish (juhla “feast”) without paying any
attention to the possibility that that Finnish word might not be an IE loanword. If he were more
thoughtful he would chose another Finnish word that could eventually be of IE origin – the noun
tulipalo (fire).
4) Piotr mentions the “Yule month” and does not say that Yule acquired its name in accordance
with a Yule log (oak log). This custom of burning the oak log (Serb. badnjak) during the
Christmass is well known among the Slavs too. It was still the pagan tradition when Pope Julius
I decided to celebrate Christmas around the time of winter solstice. Here we can see that the
Pope name is very interesting because it is possible that “Yule time” was “christened” in
accordance to the name Julius.
5) Cybalist chieftain also suggested that a small variation of the above-mentioned “neuter”
*jexWla- (*jékW-lo-, *jeh1-ro-) could “produce” the word “yell” and the word “year”!
6) With a little additional Cybalist acrobatic, said Piotr, we could even re-invent the wheel!
Abracadabra, *jékW-lo- *kWekWlo- hop!

─ Piotr’s “to speak passionately” could also be the Slavic “kukanje” (jeka, huk;

                                                          ; cf. Serb. kokoška hen; Eng. chicken).
We can also see that word hoot in English and huk in Serbian are both related to the
characteristic sound of owls.
As far as the word “yelling” is concerned (OE ceallian/giellan call/yell; Serb. galama noise,
glasanje voting/calling, glasno loud; Lat. clamo –are), it is clearly derived from the Gon-Bel-Gon
basis; i.e. from the same basis from which the words as Serbian uzviknuti (yell, cry), uzbuna
(alert), zvuk (sound) were born. Of course, if we say that English “sound” appeared from the
same basis as “call” or “yell” or Slavic “zvuk” (sound), including Sanskrit “svana” (noise, roar)
and Latin “sono –are (sound), the modern scientists of the Cyba-Cave-List kind would be
completely bewildered and unable either to understand that strange process of sound changes
or to rebut such a statement.

─ I know tha
                                  -   -
                                                                    (roughness of sound) is
phonetically very close to the Serbian odzvanjati (sounding off, echoing), but they would not be
able to say here anything more than that “such a resemblance is a matter of accidentality”.

─ As I have told many times before, there is no chance resemblance among IE languages! If
words are phonetically same or close to each other they must be derived from the same
primeval basis.

─ Now, let us go to our initial question. The months of June and July are the most hot months of
the year. It means that their names could somehow be connected to heat and warmth. Do we
have the enough “heating” IE words that could correspond to the names of months – June and
July? Maybe Greek άγνίζω (purify, cleanse, burn up, sacrifice) could be marked as a possible
ancestor of June and July? That ward also has all necessary prerogatives of the Yule cognate
and possible “parent”. Greek αγανος (broken wood used for fuel) could have been our “key”
word, but we must first explain how it attained its primary meaning – broken; or the meaning
“broken” has been introduced later. If we compare Greek αγανος to the Serbian word “luč”
(splinters used as fire igniter) we could conclude that αγανος is related to Latin ignis (fire; Serb.
oganj, Skt. agni) while Serbian luč is a cognate of Latin lux, lucis (light; Skt. laghu light; Serb.
ložiti to fuel). In addition, comparing the Serbian words luč (splinters; firewood), ložiti (fuel) and
lomiti (break) we are coming to the same “philosophical” pattern that we have seen earlier in
Greek άγνίζω-αγανος (burn-firewood-broken) relation (cf. Eng. splinter, split; Serb. ra-s-polutiti
split, ra-s-paliti ignite).

─ At this instant, it would be interesting to see the possible relation between Serbian word
Badnjak and Yule log. Badnjak is derived from the Bel-Gon basis, the same one that has been
used for other Serbian words as Božić (Christmas; a little God) and adjective Božji (divine,
Godly); also Boginja (Godess). Serbian word paljenica (burned offerings) explains the meaning
of the word Badnjak as well as the noun panj (log). All started from the primary agglutinated
form Bel-Gni-Gna => pal-h-e-hne => paljenje (burning, igniting); hence paljenik => palnj => panj
(log) and a little metathesised form pa-h-le-hne-hna => pa–d-l-hnak => Badnjak).

─ The month of Jun might be the Latin ignis (Ignis => Iunius) while Iuppiter Iovis (Jupiter; Zeus
Pater or Dios Pater) might be equaled to the month of July. Serbian name Jovelja matches to
Latin Julius and it shows that Julius come from Ju(b)lius (Job, Jov: Serb. Jovan). On the other

probably of imitative origin (bleat; Serb. blejati), but the other words for ram/sheep (ovis, ovan,
ovca) could be related to wool (Serb. vuna; from Slav. vlna/volna; from belina whiteness).

─ Let us go farther: where is Spanish hablar (speak) is coming from? Is it related to Serbian
govoriti (speak)? I know that Piotr, the biggest linguistic guru on Cyba-Cave-List would answer
resolutely: No way! But if I said to him that Serbian adjective govorljiv (talkative) and verb
čavrljati (chat) were derived from the earlier form hablar => r metathesis) = gov(l)or; gavlHranje
(l > gavrljanje => čavrljanje; govorenje (speech)? OK, I made this digression in order to show
that sometimes there are words that are closely related (like in case of Sp. hablar and Serb.
govor) even if we would have never supposed that they ever had anything in common.
I will stop here for now. Nevertheless, if there would be anyone who sincerely wants to see the
end of our “July/Yule enigma” (especially Piotr the Cyba-Cave-Chieftain-Guru) I would come
back and finish the story.

The Du. gokken "to gamble" came to mind. If that and the yule word were both substrate, might
they be somehow weirdly connected?


Let's take a quick look at Cyba-Cavelist again. It seems there is nothing in the world that would
be able to curb the "scientific" imagination of the Pro-Gam(bl)ing Cave-Tongue Society.

Of course, Dutch gokken is out of question but words as Du. "dobbelen" and "gamble", including
"jubilate", could somehow be related to Yule. As the possible candidates for Yule cousins on the
Cavelist already appeared words as "juice" and "wheel".

Patrick Rayan was the one to propose the most logical explanation for now - howl! Unlike Piotr's
highly pregnant and over-tensed mind sparkles Rayan's thinking is clear and unpolluted with
(ob)noxious elements of an unbearable and almost suicidal scholarship.

Does anyone know what Germans are doing in case of a big merriment? Of course, you are
right - they jubeln! Jubeln means "jubilate" or "cheer". Serbian Jovelja, my cousin from the wild
forests of my native village of Gostelja (the "hostel" where I was born) using his wild peasant
accent would say: " ...javljaju se ba... (they are calling or yelling).

Although Serbian "javljanje" has more meanings, beginning with the above-mentioned "calling",
to "occuring, appearance" and ending with te "theophany", this word could not completely solve
our Yule "problem". Let us go back to German jubeln, which is in reality the same word as
Serbian javljanje, and see the noun Jubel (jubilation) that is directly derived from "jubeln" or

In Serbian the word Jubel appeared in form "zabavljanje" (celebration) or "zabaljanje" - in fact
from the same 'habaljanje', 'jubeln' or 'javljanje'; all fro the UR-basis Gon-Bel-Gon

The history of the word Yule is now completed: Yule - from Jubel (javlja) => Yuvel => Yuvle =>

Intelligible Gibberish

Friday, 4. January 2008, 11:50:40

Some people love mystical and complicated explanations because they believe it might give
more shines and credibility to their own "exceptional" wit.
Such people spent years and decades memorizing the "lessons”, they have never properly

When Plehanov wrote his introduction to Hegel's Phenomenologie Des Geistes he used the
bombastic syntagms as "paleontology of Spirit" and similar craps. He did so because he wanted
to be "as clever as Hegel was". Of course, Plehanov never understood a single sentence that
Hegel wrote and he never understood that no one else in the world have ever understood
Hegel's philosophical and most (over!) intelligible gibberish.

Schopenhauer, Hegel's contemporary, was the first who exposed Hegel’s intellectual
harlequinade by describing him as "a commonplace, inane, loathsome, repulsive and ignorant
charlatan, who with unparalleled effrontery compiled a system of crazy nonsense that was
trumpeted abroad as immortal wisdom by his mercenary followers". Schopenhauer also thought
that Hegel's work would be an “inexhaustible” source of laughter to the posterity.

Unfortunately, Schopenhauer did not realize that people are more likely to believe the words
and loony constructions of a magic deceiver than to believe the simple but a deeply
"disappointing" truth. Dostoyevsky has magnificently described that ill-natured human trait in his
"The Grand Inquisitor" (a chapter from The Brothers Karamazov).

My Xur-Bel-Gon theory (HSF Human Speech Formula) is showing that the history of the words
could not be tracked neither through the regular phonetic changes nor through the rigidness and
fogginess of Laryngeal Theory nor through the other linguistic "theories" and "laws" whose
correctness was disputable even at the time of their "coining". Of course, there are some basic
and undeniable phonetic laws that must be respected, but if we intend to find the way in which
the words were born, distributed and changed during millenniums we must use semantic and
philosophy as our primary weapon.

Our Father from Water

Thursday, 3. January 2008, 19:57:16

Vatviae. Matron name. Twelve inscriptions have been found to date recording the name
Vatviae. Three of the inscriptions come from Rödingen (Kreis Jülich) and five from Morken-Harff
(Kreis Bergheim, Germany). Half of the inscriptions give the dative Vatviabus, and the others
Vatvims, which confirms the Germanic character of the name. The most frequent interpretation
relates the Vatviae etymologically to a Germanic word base meaning 'water', but the exact
application of this is disputed. More original, but not more likely, is the connexion of the Vatviae
with Latin vates 'seer'.

Veteranehae. Matron name. A number of inscriptions on votive stones from Embken and
Wollersheim (Kreis Düren, Germany) are dedicated to the 'matronibus Veteranehis'. In addition
to this there are two monuments with the name variant Veterahenae and three with
Vataranehae from the same area, so that a cult centre in Embken may be postulated; four of the
inscriptions with the Veteranehae come from donors from the same family. Another newly found
inscription, of which only Veter . . . is extant is not found in the same area of the other stones
(Rommerskirchen, Kreis Neuß), but it was used as a building stone and could therefore also
come from Embken originally. The link of the name with veteranus 'veteran' is unlikely.
Gutenbrunner suggested the form Vataranehae was the correct one and related the name
etyrmologically to Germanic *watar- 'water' as numerous matron names are derived from river
names. The great frequency of the form on Veter-, however, makes this interpretation
somewhat improbable, and a derivation from the name of a camp Castra Vetera is to be
Heidi Graw

Let me start from the second name - Veteranehae. First, Gutenbrunner was right when he
claimed that this name must be somehow related to Germanic "water". Second, hypothetically is
quite possible that Veteranehae is related to veteranus as well as it is possible that veteranus is
related to water. Following the same logic I used in my former message when I was talking
about the Slavic words "voda" (water) and "vođa" (leader) I could say that Germanic *watar
(water) is related to Germanic *fader (father). In Greek water is ύδωρ (hydor; also hygros) and
leader is ηγήτηρ (hegeter). In this case, it could be supposed that Greek 'ydor (water) originally
sounded as 'wydor' (cf. English otter, Greek hydra, Slavic vidra; all seem to be derived from
"water"). Another Greek word can throw more light upon this problem. It is the word ποτίζω
(potizo water), equal to Serbian vodica (small water) or the verb poticati/poteći (to flow, running
as water).

Taking all the above facts in a serious considerat

                                                                                (father), which are
phonetically almost the same as Serbian vožd (leader; vođa; cf. Russ. вотчина/votčina
patrimony). It means that Slavic word otac (father) also had its primary meaning of "leader", just
in the same way as it happened to the Germanic *fader. Now we can also understand why we
have the name "apa" (papa, babo) or hypocorism "ata" (tata; from voditi /lead/) with the meaning

What we yet left unexplained is the Latin word veteranus (old). We all know that in old times the
tribal leader was always the oldest member of the family. It means that "father" of those tribal-
ages was at the same time the leader of the tribe and the father to all the members of the clan.
Even today, when we observe the religious life and tradition, we will recognize the tribal
conscience and system of organization among our religious LEADERS who are still bearing the
"titles" of FATER, PATER, PADRE, V-OTAC, and POPE.
I think Vatviae is equal to the modern German word Witwe (widow). In Slavic widow is udova
(Serb. udovica) and it is related to the Serbo-Slavic verbs odvoditi or odvojiti (take away,
separate); i.e. it is a cognate of English devoid or Latin divido -videre (separate). It will become
clearer if we say that Slavic name for maiden is "devojka"; cf. Serbian devica (virgin). It means
devojka (Russ. девушка; Czech děvče, dívka) is a girl ready for marriage, the girl that is ready
to be taken out or separated (odvojiti) from her parental home. Slavic udova and German Witwe
represent woman who is ready to be re-married or married again (she is a maiden or devojka
/girl/ again!).

Of course, in this case the word widow is indirectly related to water (Slavic odvoditi, odvojiti,
devojka; from voda water); also Latin vadum -i (water).

Finally, if the married woman is willing to be young again (maiden) she must pray FATHER for
her husbands death! What an amazing elixir of youth!

A Formula for a New Millennium

Tuesday, 1. January 2008, 19:08:56

Bjorvand & Lindeman take No. and (i.e. Eng and wing) as derivations from the root Gmc *we:- >
Non-Anatol. *Hwe:- < PIE *H2w-eH1-. (Accepting this, the suffixes are self-evident.) Since the
"wind"-word has reflexes in several branches, it's probably older than Germanic. In Non-
Anatolian this derivated stem wouldn't look very different from Pokorny's *uendH1-. The "wing"-
word, OTOH, must be younger, since the verbal noun suffix -ing is a Germanic innovation.

Trond Engen

You seem not to understand the logic of "belgianism" or "xurbelgonism".

Dentals are the "younger" sounds and they always come out from velars, glottals and other
"laryngeals". The other thing is a matter the pure philosophy and the primal symbolism - all the
words in any IE vocabulary must be firmly connected to the natural phenomena (for instance,
Eng. love, lips and libation, even lime /from libe/; globe, Slavic zemlja /earth/ and Latin cumulus,
including nebula, noble and Arab dunja). I hope there would soon be people on sci.lang who
would be able to understand the basic principles of the Xur-Bel-Gon Theory. As I see it, you are
a born explorer, intelligent and far above average. Try to compare swing and wing/wind, fling
and flying or (this is much more difficult), Serbian pero (feather), vetar (wind) and German Feder
(feather), Greek πτερόν (feathers), modern Greek φτερό (wing, feather).

I hope you have already spotted that English feather is close to weather. Is it a chance
resemblence? No my dear it is not. Who ever tell you different he must be either a liar or an
ignoramus. All the above words are most closely related. Compare Serbian words vetar (wind)
and vedro/vedar (clear sky; Serb. vedar dan = Eng. good weather) with English weather and
feather. Feather - weather - vetar - vedar; wind and wing!

The time has come for a new linguistic breakthrough. Xur-Bel-Gon speech formula is a start for

a new millennium.

B&L mention OCS among the reflexes of PIE *H2w-eH1-. Some of your "cognates" aren't even
remotely close, and you still mix prefixes and roots, but at least some looks OK. I'd better leave
that to someone who actually knows something about Slavic, though.

You must have beee listening too much to Kriha's scientifically- prefixed idée fixe! ;-) Today it
just looks like that but the Slavic prefixes (as any other) couldn't be older than the basic words
one vocabulary could contain. For instance, Serbian word so/l, soliti (salt) is related to the verb
saliti/zaliti (suffuse) but it doesn't mean that the word so/l is prefixed. Even Latin sorbeo (suck in,
drink, swallow) is coming from the same Ur-basis as Serbian verb saliti/salivati (suffuse) and it is
even related to the mere name of Slavs. As I told many times before, it is quite normal that all IE
languages used the same "source" or "roots" of their different languages and the "key" lies in
the fact if you are in a position to have that "key" or not..

Beautiful Loveliness
Tuesday, 1. January 2008, 08:29:56

I'm skeptical about portmanteau roots, and I'd expect diphthongization to *poi- in zero-grade.
This verb 'drink' was apparently irregular in PIE, and the two roots *peH3-, *pi(H)- were either
connected through some mechanism no longer productive, or they were suppletive roots.

Douglas G. Kildey

I would say that Laryngeal Theory have brought more evil than good into the general
understanding of lunguage development. Let us take a simple example, which has often been
used as a "key model" of the "laryngealism" - the Hittite word ḫants (front; ḫantezzi first).

It seems that the modern linguistic science have not yet realized that none of the Indo-Europen
words has ever started with a vowel as an initial sound of the word. It means, not only that the
Greek word αντί (Lat. ante; Skt. anti) was "de-laryngealised" but all the other vowel- beginning
IE words had also lost its initial "laryngeal" (pharyngeal, glottal or velar). I do not remember that
I ever found a comparison between the Czech verb honit (chase, drive, hunt; Serb. goniti, Russ.
гнаться) and English hunt (OE huntian, If the "Laryngel Theory" were so applicable in the
reconstruction of PIE, why nobody would be "enlightened" to explain different forms of the word
*hant- in Germanic languages as hunþs, hentan, hantian...?

For instance, why there are more variants of the word lepo (beautiful) in Serbo-Slavic: lepo, lipo
and lijepo? What is it that the last mentioned form (lijepo) is suggesting? A kind of "laryngeal"?
Of course, probably it was a glottal-fricative h (*lih2epo-). And what happened here? The
supposed h2 turned to be the consonant "j"! Yes, we could say that h 2 "colored" the following
vowel "e" in this case, but what happened to the other variants of Serbian "beautiful" ( lepo lipo)?
The word "lepo" (as well as "lipo") looks as it were composed without its "laryngeal". Why in this
case the same "laryngeal" was so uneffective?

No, the problem is much more simple than we are ready to accept. In Serbo-Slavic languages
beauty was understood as "oblina" (roundness) and that oblina is derived from the ancient basis
Bel-Gon. It means that "oblina" first sounded as HobliHna. In fact, in this case we have to start
from the agglutinated form Ho-Bli-Hno-Bla-Hno (Serb. oblikovano formatted, figured; oblikovanje
design) where from the Serbian words obljubljeno => voljeno (loved). We can here also see that
the English word beautiful followed the same pattern as Serbian "lijepo"; from H-oblHu-blHe-
Hno; cf. Serb. lepotan (nice guy, beautiful); also Serbian "ljubiti" (kiss) comes from the same
basis as lepota/ljepota (beauty); Serb. ljubljen (loved) (from H-oblHu-blHe-Hno => h/ob-ljubi-ti
=> bljubiti => ljubiti (love, kiss); either blju-p-ti => Eng. beauty; Serbian ljupko nice, charming).

I hope that not only Franz and Douglas will understand that the solution for the problem of the
genesis and relatedness of languages lies much more in their semantic values than in the
"regular" (or irregular) phonetic changes, which are, by the way, very often the biggest
hindrance on our way to a full comprehension of the language emergence and its development
trough the history).

The "laryngeal" h2 inside the word "lijepo" could also be h1 (glottal stop), h3 or some hypothetical
h4 or hx (velar, glottal, pharyngeal or some of their combinations) but it would not change a bit of
the semantics of that word.

Let us take still another example - English word wind (from the supposed Pokorny's root endh-
1) and its possible relation to the Serbian words huk (roar, hoot, blowing of the wind),
huknuti/hukati (hoot, blowing) and dah (breath), dahnuti/disati (breathe), duhati/duvati (blow).
Does it not seem more plausible that English wind is related to the other English "airborne"
words like wing or flying? In fact, now it became clear that the root uendh-1 could not be the
source of the word wind, because the English words wind and wing appeared through the
aphaeresis of the word blowing. The similar process could be followed in Serbian when we start
with the word puvanje/puvati (to wind, blow), which has been derived from the Bel-Bel-Gon
basis (from oblivanje/polivanje suffusing, bljuvanje disgorge, gush) and the verb vinuti se (soar,
fly high in the sky).

Some of the piercing minds on sci.lang of the Brainy type could say that there is another
Serbian word - puhati/puhanje with the same meaning as puvati/puvanje. It is the truth as well
as it is the truth that the Serbian words, duvanje/duvati (blow, blowing) and duhanje/duhati
(blow, wind), corresponds clearly with puvanje/puvati (blow, wind) and puhanje/puhati (blow,
wind). Even the Chinese word tái fēng (typhoon; cf. Greek Τυφάων a mythological monster with
a hundred heads who breathed out flames) looks as a cognate of Serbian duvanje (blowing) as
well as the English word wind sounds phonetically close to Chinese fēng (wind). Although the
Serbian words puvanje and puhanje have the same meaning they have not come from the
same basis. Namely, as we told earlier, puvanje is a "descendant" of the Bel-Bel-Gon basis
(bluvati => puvati; cf. Eng. bubble) while the other word, Serbian puhati, has been derived from
the Bel-Gon basis (Serb. bljunuti/ from bljuhnuti disgorge, puhnuti blow, wind; cf. Eng. wind).
Now it bacame clear that English wind is related to the Serbian words puhnuti/puhati or
vijanje/vejanje/uvijanje (wind/winding/snowing; also Serb. vinuti se "soar", vintati "to twist",
mantati "feel the dizziness"). Serbian uvinuti is the same word as English wind (twine).

Serbian lep (beautiful; from ljubiti kiss, love) and English beautiful (pretty), as we have already
shown, are the descendent of the same ancestor. The similar is with the Latin word bellulus
(pretty), which is related to the OFr. bealte (being handsome). The Serbian verb voleti (love)
clearly correspond with the English beauty and OFr. bealte, although these words have no
identical meaning (love vs. beuty). Such a discrepancy in the meanings of above-mentioned
Serbian and English words indicates that Slavic and Germanic languages had a different path of
their own evolution and that these two tongues were separated physically in the past for a long
period of time (probably more than a few millenniums). On the other side, the meaning of the
words that were derived from the Gon-Bel-Bel-Gon “agglutinated” basis did not deviate much
from the primary idea of a “kinship” showed by the sun and a cloud (Serb. obljubiti to adhere,
cling, stick or hold together and resist separation).

In reality, Serbian obljubiti is born from a transient (temporary) hn/o-bl-ub(l)-hne basis, which
was the platform from which the Serbian words oblak (cloud), kobeljanje (rolling about;
kobeljanje oblaka “the rolling of the clouds”) and okupljanje (gathering) were launched into the
world of speech. Symbolically, the “closeness” among the sun and clouds has been
“implemented” into the area of everyday human life.

A Hidden Secret

Monday, 31. December 2007, 09:28:33

I posted this question on the sci.lang NG:
Is there any relation between the English word "secret" and Serbo-Slavic verb "sakriti" (hide;
Russian скры/ва/ть; Czech skrýt)? Slavic 'sakriti' is related to the other Slavic words as
'skrenuti' (deviate) and 'strana' (side); hence Serbian 'stranac' (stranger; Russ. странный
Is it the reason why Latin 'secretus' (set apart; from "secerno") is phonetically very close to the
Serbian werb "skrenuti, skrenuo" (deviate, avert)?
And all this wouldn't have been "strange" (all the above words belong to the IE vocabulary), if
the Slavic word "sakriti" hadn't been a sa- prefixed word.
Any idea?

You are still persisting with these idiocies of matching unrelated slavic words (prefix+stem)
devised within the last millenium or so with words of Latin or Greek origin which are several
times older.

Paul J Kriha

First, how do you know that words like sakriti, skriti, skrenuti were (as you say) "devised" during
the "last millennium"? Does it mean that Slavs were so much plain spoken (honest) people that
they needed no words to express or descibe "secrets"? What are we going to do with the Greek
word απόκρυφος/apocryphos (Lat. apocryphus) and Serbian pokrivati (to cover), pokrov (land
cover, a screen placed over dead person or coffin), κρυφιος/κρύπτω (keep secret, cover in the
earth, bury; crypt grave) krivati, skrivati, sa-krivati (keep secret), Serbian grob (grave, tomb).

I would say, it is impossible to see clear relations between Greek απόκρυφος and Latin secretus
(secerno) without "deploying" the Serbo-Slavic words sakriti and sakrivati/pokrivati.

"sakriti", "skrýt", "zaskrýti" are all constructed as compound of
prefix(behind/down)+stem(to shield).
Of course! I mentioned it in my initial post on this thread (see above).

Use the logic: whatever is strange to the human mind that must be a secret. What is etymology
of the English word "screen"? Is there any relation among Latin secerno (set apart), Serb.
skrenuti (deviate) and Eng. screen? Can you not see that this is not a chance resemblance? Try
to relate the other words, Eng. deviate, devide and devoid?; or Latin divido and deviantem
(devius) where the prefix de- is clearly visible (Slavic od-)? What is the meaning of the Czech
word odvádět (Serbian odvoditi, odvajati lead away, separate)?. Do you see the clear-cut
relation between the Slavic words voda (water) and put (road, path, way)?
Let us take another example: English short (from OE sceort) has its counterpart word in German
kurz and Serbo-Slavic s-kratiti (from kratak short; Russ. сокращать; Czech zkrácený shortened;
Serbian imp. skrati! cut short!). As you can see, German form kurz, Swedish kort, Danish kort
are phonetically very close to the Serbian verb kratiti, krati (shorten), Czech krátce or Russian
короткий / korotkiy (short). We can see that in Slavic the word skratiti is a sa- prefixed kratiti
(shorten). My question is where the initial sound "S" came from in OE sceort (short)?

Closely related to "secretions"?

Very good Kriha, you are right! Secretion is also derived from Latin secerno.

The Waterfall's Slapping

Sunday, 30. December 2007, 02:12:04

The root of Sapis (now Savio) is *sap-, as shown by the Tribus Sapinia of Umbrians dwelling
around the river, with their principal town at *Sapinium (now Sapigno). The river-name cannot
be decomposed as SA-PIS.

Douglas G. Kilday
There is a river Sapna in eastern Bosnia, Savinja in Slovenia (tributary of Sava) Drina's
tributary, and there is a valley Sapna in Iraq and a river with the same name. The Germans
named the river Savinja Sann and that example showed all the difficulties we have to struggle
with when the names of certain "modern" toponyms are concerned. If Savinja could become
Sann than we could only imagine what corruption the old (ancient) toponyms, written by the
Roman writers, have survived.

The first association that crossed my mind when the name Sapna is in question was the
Sanskrit word 'svapati' (sleep; Serb. spavati); i.e. svapna => sapna. Of course, I rejected that
idea almost immediately: for god's sake, who would have ever gave such an "uninventive" name
to a river? A sleeping river? No! Then I thought that Sapna and Savinja could have something in
common with the Thracian god Sabazios (known in Serbia as Savaot) but I quickly rejected that
idea too. I couldn't remember any river that might have been directly associated with the some
of the god's names.

I supposed that Sapna could be (as for most of river's names) somehow related to water,
wetness or some of the many water activities. Maybe the name Sapna is related to the kind of
words as flow (Serbian plaviti). In a moment, I thought that the problem is solved; namely,
Sapna and Savinja are the quick mountainous rivers and people were using the power of their
streams to transport the timber on rafts for millenniums. In Serbian raft is called 'splav' but
rafting is not splavanje (as I would have wanted it to be) but splavarenje; too long and not likely

to be reduced to Savinja (splavarenje could eventually become sviranje /playing/!)

Finally, I tried to think more "liberally"; why not begin with the words as pour, stream, splash,
douche, tide…? There is a river in Romania called Slava, mouthing into the Black Sea, and
there is a great number of rivers and other toponyms in the Balkan with the names Savinja,
Slavinja, Slivnica, Slavina. In Slovenia there are PN Slavinje (cf. Serb. slavina a tap) and rivers
Savinja and Slivnica. Additionally, river Sapna is reach with the waterfalls as well as rivers
Savinja and Slivnica are. Waterfall is called “slap” in Serbian and it would be very easy to erase
the sound "l" from the supposed word 'slapna'; slapna => sapna; cf. Loch Slapin in Scotland.
What about a contraction of Sap- and -pis to Sapis? Pistoriae (also -ia, -ium, now Pistoia) is
probably simply 'Bakersville', from Latin 'baker'.

Maybe Lat. pistris (sea monster, shark, whale), piscor (fish), piscina (fish pond, a swimming
pool); Italian pisciare (piss; cf. Serb. pišati, pišuria piss, pišura a sloppy woman); also Serbian
pesak (sand), peskara (sandy pond). All these words are coming from the Bel- Gon (or Bel-Gon-
Hor) womb (cf. Serbian vlaga wetness, voda water, vodenost wetness, Greek ά-φυδρος without
water, υδ       equal to Serbian vodurina a big water, Ger. feucht). Sometimes the phonetic
changes inside the IE languages are taking a of phantasmagoric dimension: just compare
German Feuchtikeit (wetness) and Serbian vodnjikavost wetness, as if filled with water :-)

I still prefer the meaning of water in motion. TOR means a bull in motion. PIS TOR could then
be water in motion...

Franz Gnaedinger

Right! TOR has the mea                      -                                                    -

                                                     run, flow). Initially, the ancient people
connected any kind of motion to the flow (CURRENT) of river water (Serbian reka river, Spanish

Etruscan F- and V- are not interchangeable. Apart from the suffix - na, Felsina has nothing to do
with the family name Velzna, the basis of Velznal 'Volsinii' (now Orvieto; the inhabitants were
forcibly removed and resettled at Volsinii Novi, now Bolsena). Velz-na cannot be divided as

There is a lake Vlasina (Vlasinsko Jezero) in the eastern part of Serbia and it could be
compared to the lake of Bolsena (Lago di Bolsena). I am surprised that Abdullah and his "Proto-
Illyrian" mentors (G. Starostin and Lubotsky) have not yet taken that "fact" to coroborate their
"Shqip-Illirian proto-PIE language" and "the mother of all European mothers" (not sister!).

The Flaming Lamp (Plamena Lampa )

Saturday, 29. December 2007, 17:15:34

LAPp --- shining stone, also stone lamp (in use from around 18 000 BP onward, usually a
concave piece
of limestone, but also the wonderful lamp in the shape of a spoon from Lascaux, finely carved
from sandstone, marked with open chevrons); Latin lapis for stone, marble, gem, pearl, tessera,
PIE *lap for shine, ancient Greek lampos for torch, lamp, light, sun (emphatic p replaced by
additional m), English lamp German Lampe

Franz Gnaedinger

Greek λυχνος (lamp) is an equivalent to the Serbian word luča (luminance, light) and that word
did not start from your "Magdalenian" LAP but from the Bel-Gon basis (Serb. paljenje blaze,
ignition) <= pal/e/gne; Lat. flamma; Greek φλεγω burn up); In case of lapis we have a different
logic; this time related to the Latin libatio and Greek επιλειβω (pour; Serb. po-livati pour, livati
libation, liti pour); in reality, Latin lapis has been derived from the same basis as Greek λιθινος
(stone) or Serb. litica (a big vertical rock near and above the water); hence littoral (/stony/
coastal area; Latin littus the shore of a lake or river (again Bel-Gon basis; Serb. obliti/oblivati
suffuse; liptati gush, litica rock, from ob-litica) cf. plateau.

Let us compare Greek λαμβανω (to take); λαπτω (to lap with the tongue), λαμπας (torch) with
the Serbian words lapiti (take, to steal), lapati (to lap; ob-laporan voracious);
Considering all the possible options of the history of the Greek word "lampe" it seems that that
word must be the metathesised Latin flamma(Serb. plam => lamp; Eng. flame); for instance,
Greek υπολυχνιον (lamp-stand) sounds almost the same as Serbian upaljenje, upaljač (lighter),
paljenica (a fire sacrifice).

Xur-Bel-Gon Theory In Short

Saturday, 29. December 2007, 13:56:54

Xur-Bel Gon theory is based on the names of the three most ancient sungods (Sur, Hor and
Bel) and the primeval Gon syllable, which is denoting any kind of movement, either mental or
physical. In fact, Xur- Bel-Gon is a source and a generator of the development of IE languages
and a possible wellspring of the human speech in general.

In short, Xur-Bel-Gon is the nucleus from which any IE word came into existence. If you find
yourself at the source of the river, it is not difficult to follow its stream, its confluences,
tributaries and any other river branches. Otherwise, if you find yourself somewhere at a heavily
branched estuary you can spend the whole life without finding that what you are looking for (you
know the story about Livingston, the Lualaba River and the river Nile).

If anyone ever really wanted to know how the Xur-Bel-Gon wellspring is functioning all he would
have to do is just to choose an IE word and let him watch that word's "unique" journey from the
time it have been delivered from the Xur-Bel-Gon womb until to these modern days...

A Despotic River

Friday, 28. December 2007, 12:46:41
Working on the study of Gallap's (Dardanian Province) place-names, I face very hard place-
name Desivojca, attested as Dexiuoevzi in some Raguzian sources, later as Desilofc and
Desivçe in Ottoman sources. Being aware that across this village goes homonym river and that
in Albanian we have almost regular dissimulation i - i > e - i (cf. Sl. ličiti > Alb. leçit 'to deprive'), I
came to conclusion that this place-name is motivated by river name and should be derived form
prefixed form d- + is-il-/-iv-. Root *H1is-ro seems to be a suffixed zero-grade form of *H1eis-,
attested in Greek hieros 'powerful, holly'. So, I think that *H1is- gets very early the meaning of
'powerful, holy river', attested in river Illyrian river name Isamnus, in Illyrian TN Histroi, in place-
name Istra, in Dardanian place-name Istrina, as well as in Celtic Isaurus, Ukrainian river name
Dn-ister etc.
To sum up, Illyrian-Albanian prefix d- is attested not only in river names, as: D-rin-us, D-ril-o, D-
riv-astum, D-ab-anos, D-ab-esh-ec > Dabishec, due to dissimulation e - e > i - e (cf. Sl. beseda
> Alb bisedë 'conversation, chat, interview') but as well as in D-is-il-/D- is-iv- etc.


The best contribution that Abdullah could possible make to the Albanian linguistic science would
be if he could have kept his mouth shut.

Near Gacko (Bosnia) we can find the lake called Desivoj, and Desivoj is one of the oldest
Serbo-Slavic personal names beside Desimir. Desirad. Desislav, Desa, Dejan, Desko, Tasa,
Taško (from Tanasko ), family names Desivojević, Desković; Serbian Desivojska Reka is equal
to another Serbian toponym - Gazivode (from Gon-Bel- basis).

If we compare the aboove Serbian Des- names with the Serbian words desiti (happen),
nenadano (unexpected; hence the Serbian personal name Nenad) and iz-nenada (sudden) we
will be able to understand that the Serbian name Desivoj is a compound word (an agglutination
and assimilation of the primeval syllables Gon-Gon-Bel-Gon). When we observe the name
Desivoje more carefully we would be heavily surprised seeing that this name is a counterpart to
the Greek word δεσποτικός/ despotikos (autocrat, despotic) and Serbian gospodin (gentleman,
lord, sir).
Compare the so-called Thracian Decebalus and Serbian Župan (from Gohpan/Gospan) ; all the
above words are closely related to the words as English king, Serbian knez. Guess how it

There is an Albanian family name - Desivojci - also derived from Desivoj; i.e. it came from
Serbian Desivoj, Desivojević and turned to be Desivojci in a similar way as the Serbo-Slavic
surname Konushevic/ Konjušević became Konushevci after their Slavic ancestors accepted the
Islamic Religion.
Of course, Desivojci means nothing in Albanian and there was no Albanian who ever bore the
name Desivoj

As everone can see, the family name Konushevci is meaningless in Albanian; in Slavic it is
derived from the word konj- (horse; Konjević, Deri-konja, Konjić).
There is a great number of Konjušević family members in Klenak northern Serbian Province
Vojvodina, Srem) where they settled after the first Great Serbian Migration from Kosovo (1690) .

I have already pointed out that the Slavic surname Konusevic could be found even in Russia:
[...26 [Konusevic] Конусевич, Е. Н. "Иван Серегеевич Тургенев." Литературное обозрение,
1993, № 11/12, 4?10...]

In river-names a sense closer to Pokorny's 'to move rapidly' seems likely, something implying a
swiftly or powerfully moving current.

Brian M. Scott

But it has nothing to do with neither the so-called Illyrian nor with the modern Albanian
language. As I showed above: Serbian personal name Desivoj <= Desiboj <= Despot <=
Gospod (Lord) = Greek Δεσποτης; all also related to the Serbo-Slavic name Gostivoj [Serb.
gazda lord; cf. Serbian uspeti, uspeh (success; from h/uspeti), osvojiti, osvajač (conquerer; from
h/osvajač)]; uspinjati, uspenje Bogorodice/Gospe (the elevation of mother Mary; Mary is also
named Gospa in Serbian.
A Plowing Of Smartness Across The Cybalist's Swimming Fields

Thursday, 27. December 2007, 23:16:27

This can well be argued. Slavic *plugU has a pretty good Slavic etymology: <*plou-g- <*pleu- 'to
swim', and seem (in contrast to *soxa 'a primitive dragged plough with no blade made of a
bough') to express an impression a wheeled plough made on the Slavs (cf. also <plaumorati> (<
'swimming wheels'), a Latinized rendering of a Pannonian name of a plough).


This guys on Cyba-Cave-List are really amazing. The fact is that Slavic etymology wrongly
assumed that Slavic 'plug' (plough; Russ. плуг; Czech pluh) is a loanword from Germanic (OHG
pfluog). Of course, it is the truth that the etymology of the Slavic word plug is completely
transparent and understandable, but as far as semantic is concerned, that word has nothing to
do with the Slavic *pl'va- (swim). Both words started from the Bel-Gon primeval basis and both
are indirectly connected to the Slavic word oblak (cloud; Czech oblak, Russ. облачный cloudy;
Serb. oblak; Ger. Wolke).

Slavic swim (Russ. плавать, Czech plavat, Serb. plivati) is a daughter word to the Serbo-Slavic
noun 'obala' (coast; from oblo /round/; ), via verb oblivati (effuse, douche; Russ. обливать;
Czech výplach; from reduplicated bel syllable, Bel-Bel-Gon basis); i.e from OBLO (round; the
round shape of the sun; Gon-Bel basis) OBLAK (cloud) => OBALA (coast) => OBLIVATI
(affuse, suffuse, splash, douche) => PLIVATI (swim).

The other word (plug plough) also started from the sun Bel and the primal Bel-Gon basis:
OBLAK (cloud) => OBLAČITI SE (getting cloduy; to clothe oneself; OBLAK cloud => OBLEKA
cloth) => VLAČITI (pull; Serb. vući, vukao; Russ. влечь; "b" to "v" sound change; BLAK =>
VLAK (train); the same logic as in German: Zug, an-ziehen dress, angezogen dressed; Anzug a
piece of cloth, suit, garment; cf. English pluck) => PLUG (plow); VLAČENJE (pulling) =>
PLUŽENJE (plowing); of course, there is no plowing without should have been
grasped quickly even by a kindergarten child.

It seems that Simeon Potter's opinion that plough is not of Germanic but of Celtic origin is widely
accepted. Potter suggested that plough was invented by Gauls, in accordance with the word
"plaumorati" mentioned by Pliny. Plaumorati is understood as compound word (plaum + orati)
and it could really be translated as "a plough with wheels" (Lat. rota wheel). It is a big question
how much this word was corrupted by Pliny and how it really sounded in Raetia in that time.
Nevertheless, one thing is sure, Celtic "pluam" cannot be the source of Germanic plog, ploh,
pfluog because that word originated from the Bel-Gon basis and the word "plaum" could only
come later as a result of an additional nasalisation... and it means that the above Potter's idea
was wrong.

The second part of plaum-orati sounds close as Latin aratio (plow) and exactli the same as the
Serbian verb orati (plow); i.e. plaum-orati sounds similar to the modern Serbian syntagm

"plugom orati" (to plow with a plowshare).


For a complete Cyba-Cave-List prankishness, only Brainy is missing

I was reminded of *pl-wm- in the Greek for "lungs", supposedly meaning "floaters", and I got an
image of the wheels holding up the plough from the wet, muddy field like two floats. I suppose,
without ever having tried it, that the problem of ploughing with a wheelless plough is to keep it
from digging itself down into the wet ground.


A slightly different interpretation is possible: a wheeled plough 'swims' or 'floats' _smoothly_, like
a boat in still waters, in contrast to wheelless plough, which jumps and twitches.

The Blessed Fagiuolo

Thursday, 27. December 2007, 22:45:22

Faesulae is probably of Etruscan origin. I have no attestation of the Etruscan form, but I would
expect *Feisli by analogy with Ceicna/ Caecina, Velathri/Volaterrae and similar known pairs.
Whether this is native Etruscan or an adaptation of a non-Etruscan name, I know not. I am
reasonably sure that Etr. Felsina (later Bononia, now Bologna) comes from IE *pels- 'rock, cliff'
(Ger. , Maced. 'líthos' (Hsch.), also Maced. town Pella), so an IE source for Faesulae is
phonetically possible.

Douglas G. Kilday

There is nothing that cannot be "phonetically possible"       ; for instance Faesulae could be
Greek φασόλι (bean); Serbian pasulj (bean); Italian fagiuolo (flageolet); Serbian family name
Pasuljevic; PN Pasuljevo; or more plausabe, maybe it was connected to the herb bosiljak
(sweet basil); Bosilj-grad, Bulgarian Bosile-grad (a town in Serbia; the city of basil); surname
Bosiljčić, Bosiljković; Serbian bosiljak is a shortened form (the Bel-Gon basis) of the Serb.
blagoslov (blessing); i.e. blagosiljati (bless, sanctify) => blagosiljak => blohsiljak =>
bosiljak/bosiok (basil; a good example of a word simplification through the assimilation; a Basil's
Blessing      Of course, there are other words as Serbian vaseljena/vasiona "Božja sila" (God's
potency) and the Greek name βασιλιάς/Basileus (king, emperor) that could be a potential heirs
of "Etruscan Faesulae". Yes Felsina (cf. Serbian region Vlasina, near the Bulgarian border)
could be a "rock" (Ger. Felsen rock); again Bel-Gon basis, this time related to Serbian obala
(coast); i.e. a littoral area; Greek λιθώνας (moraine; Serb. litica a steep rock above the water;
from the Serbian verbs liti <= obliti pour in, splash)...; also Serbian planina (mountain).

As far as I know the Etruscan root of Felsina was Velzna, the meaning of it unknown, perhaps
having to to with fertility. I explain Velutne via BEL TON 'warm sound', sound occurring in the
warm seasons, namely thunder. Velzna may then be an analoguous compound, warm (bel vel)
flash (zna, onomatopoeic). As for *pels 'rock, cliff', I would tentatively derive it from PIS for water
in motion, also bodies moving in water, movement caused by water, etc. It might originally have
been rock that was bared and polished by water. German Pelz for fur would be another
derivative, the analogy being the one of hair and water observed by Leonardo da Vinci.

Franz Gnaedinger

Again, Serbo-Slavic toponyms Vlasina, mountain Velež above Mostar (Bosnia), city of Veles
(FYROM); Slavic god Veles; Roman Vulcanus; Balkan First we should know that the English
word tone is related to Greek τέντωμα (stretch), Serbian verb otegnuti, otegnem (raising of
voice, to deploy an extended accent; otegnut extended; Eng. extended = Serb, istegnut). The
other thing we should know here is that the Ur-basis Bel-Gon came from the sungod Bel (Belus)
and all words derived from that basis were semantically distributed in three main direction:
1) The round shape (as if of the sun); Serbian oblo (round), Latin bulla (a round swelling), Eng.
oval, apple; Greek αμφελκω (draw around, be surrounded by; related to Serbian beležiti notice
=> pisati write; oblik form).
2) Irradiation of light and heat (flame, blaze!); Latin flamma (flame); Serbian plamen (flame;
planuti to blaze); - light, Serbian belo (white), Latin albus; fulgeo fulgere to flash, to lighten;
Serb. bljesak, blistati, blještati (glitter, flash, glint), baklja torch, Greek φωτεινός; cf. Serbian
s/vitanje dawning, vid (sight)
3) Liquid; Serbian voda, English water, Latin fluo, fluere (flow), unda (water, fluid); English wet,
Serbian vlaga (wetness); Serbian oblak (cloud), German Wolken (clouds)...

Pisa (Lat. ) was said to be a colony of the place in Elis; if this is correct, we may connect it with
Grk. 'moist lands, meadows', 'swamp-dweller' (Thcr.).- Hide quoted text - This goes along with
hypothetical PIS with the above meanings.

Douglas G. Kilday

The name of Pisa is probably related to the Peloponnesian town Pylos (Strabo) and to the
above mentioned place and god names. There are a lot of Slavic river names Bistrica (a clear
river, clean water) across the eastern part of continent). Let us mention the Thracian Pistyrus
lake on the cognominal town known as Bystirus/Bisterta; cf Bistro Jezero in Lika/Croatia (Fair
Lake); On the other side there are the Thracian people (tribe) called Bastarni, in fact those
Bastarni were the Slavic Bistrani; Bistričani (today's village in Bosnia near Kakanj - Bistrani).
Now we can scope the size of the problem the Roman have generated with the Illyrian and
Thracian names, which they were noting in a way as they had heard it - wrongly of course. Just
see this: Pistyrus, Bystirus, Bisterta and Bastarni!

Albanian numbers - njëzet (one times ten) = twenty!

Monday, 24. December 2007, 15:44:46

1x10 = 20; 2x10 = 40 If you think this calculation is wrong, go to Albania and you find it all okay!
Albanian is the only language in the world where twenty is not two times ten but one times ten!
One of the key evidences that Albanians borrowed foreign words according to their hearing and
(mis)understanding are the Albanian numbers.

Number one is një and this number is in accordance with the other IE languages. Number 'ten'
is 'dhjetë' - OK Number 'eleven' is 'njëmbëdhjetë' (borrowed Slavic structure 'jedan-na- deset',
'dva-na-deset' one-on-ten, two-on-ten; Albanian twelve is 'dymbëdhjetë').
Tridhjetë is thirty in Albanian (Serbian tri-deset - tree times ten) and it is correct;
Now we are encountering the serious difficulties; namely, Albanian twenty is not dy-dhjetë (dy =
two; two time ten) as we could have normally expected but një-zet; i.e. one time ten! In Albanian
1x10 = 20 (interesting, is it not?!)

It seems, Albanians borrowed Serbian/Slavic 'deset' (ten; not Romance dec-, dez-, dix-) and the
suffix -zet confirms it very picturesquely; like in Serbian colloquial 'dva'set', 'tri'set' instead of
dva-de-set, tri-de-set (twenty, thirty).

Finally, in Albanian two time ten is forty (2x10=40) Albanian dyzet (forty); i.e. dy (two) time -zet
(ten) is dyzet (forty).
Nevertheless, Albanians seem to have noted that 'dyzet' might be incorrectly acquired, and they
added 'katërdhjetë' - just in case

The Romanian and Latin siffixes -zece and -ginti (Rom. două-zeci or Lat. d/vi-ginti) and
Albanian -zet could represent only number ten. Albanian zot means god or host/ess (that word
was derived from the same Gon basis as Germanic got or Serbian gazda /master/; Albanian
zotëri gentleman; cf. Greek ισοθεος/isotheos godlike; Σωτήρος/Soteros Christ; Latin Saturnus)
and the fact is that it sprang from the same Ur-basis as -zet. Nevertheless, it does not mean that
-zet and zot have anything in common semantically.

For instance, the Serbian word zet (son in law) is also Gon "product"; i.e. it is a shortened form
of the word doma-ćin or doma- zet (Greek δαμαζω/domazo gain the mastery over, owerpower).
Abdullah's proposed tw- assibilation is a nice try but it cannot be applied in this specific case in
the way he'd like it to be. Of course, something similar is possible, like in Romanian dece =>
zece transformation, but thus we are going back to the number TEN again - not twenty.

This Albanian -zet reminds me to the Albanian word motër which means "sister" instead of
"mother". Other IE languages are associating word "mater" (mother) with 'maturity' (Serbian
mater mother, mator old, mudar sagacious, matori father) and it clearly shows that something
unusual is going on when Albanian language is in question.

The most close word to Albanian njëzet (twenty) is Welsh ugain (twenty); Welsh also used
vigesimal system (deugain is forty /two twenty/). Probably one would say that deugain is a
counterpart to Albanian dyzet (forty), and I must admit it sounds similar, at least at first sight.

Nevertheless, we are going to see that Welsh ugain originated from Latin viginti (twenty). Latin
viginti is the same as Dutch twintig or English twenty or Russian dvádtsat’ with the initial dental
being lost (cf. double, Latin duplo and prefix bi- /blix doubled thread; blix from dublix/duplex/). It
means that twenty is composed from two+gant/ sant in all IE languages. Greek είκοσι(twenty)
also comes from the same basis (d/va-kant, Latin viginti); i.e. from d/ewi-kosi.

Albanian: dhjetë
Basque: hamar
Breton: dek
Catalan: deu
Cornish: dek
Corsican: deci
Croatian: deset
Czech: deset
Danish: ti
Dutch: tien
French: dix
Frisian: tsien
German: zehn
Greek: δέκα (déka)
Gujarati: દશ (daśa)
Hindi: दस (das)
Hungarian: tíz
Icelandic: tíu
Irish: deich
Italian: dieci
Komi: дас (das)
Kurdish: deh
Latin: decem, X
Latvian: desmit
Norwegian: ti
Novial: dek
Occitan: dètz
Old English: tīen, tēn
Persian:       (dæh)
Polish: dziesięć
Portuguese: dez
Punjabi: ਦਸ (das)
Romanian: zece
Romany: desh
Russian: десять (désjat’)
Sanskrit: (dashan), दश (daśa)
Scots Gaelic: deich
Serbian deset
Sindhi:      (daha)
Slovak: desať
Slovene: deset
Spanish: diez
Swedish: tio (^)
Welsh: deg

Albanian njëzet
Breton: ugent
Bulgarian: двадесет (dvadeset)
Croatian: dvadeset
Czech: dvacet
Danish: tyve
Dutch: twintig f.
Frisian: tweintich
German: zwanzig f.
Greek: είκοσι (eíkosi)
Indonesian: dua puluh
Irish: fiche, g.s. fichead
Italian: venti m.
Latin: viginti
Latvian: divdesmit
Manx: feed
Norwegian: tjue
Novial: duanti
Polish: dwadzieścia
Portuguese: vinte
Romanian: douăzeci
Russian: двадцать (dvádtsat’)
Sanskrit: vimshatí
Scottish Gaelic: fichead
Serbian: dvadeset
Slovak: dvajset
Slovene: dvajset
Spanish: veinte
Swedish: tjugo
Ukrainian: двайцять (dvajtsjat’)
Welsh: ugain (vigesimal, traditional), dau ddeg m (decimal), dwy ddeg
f (decimal)

Albanian is IE language thanks to the IE borrowing, which have occupied more than 90% of
they modern vocabulary. I never claimed that Albanian is not IE but I told that Albanian was not
IE language by its origin.

Romanian două-zeci or Latin d/vi-ginti and Albanian -zet could represent only number ten.
Albanian 'zot' means god or host/ess (that word was derived from the same Gon basis as
Germanic got or Serbian gazda /master/; Albanian zotëri gentleman; cf. Greek ισοθεος/isotheos
godlike; Σωτήρος/Soteros Christ; Latin Saturnus) and the fact is that it sprang from the same ur-
basis as -zet. Nevertheless, it does not mean that -zet and zot have anything in common

For instance, the Serbian word zet (son in law) is also Gon "product"; i.e. it is a shortened form
of the word doma-ćin or doma- zet (Greek δαμαζω/domazo gain the mastery over, owerpower).
Abdullah's proposed tw- assibilation is a nice try but it cannot be applied in this specific case in
the way he'd like it to be. Of course, something similar is possible, like in Romanian dece =>
zece transformation, but thus we are going back to the number TEN again - not twenty.

There is a Tosk Albanian word zjétë (ten) instaed of Gheg dhet (ten) and standard Albanian
dhjetë. Now we can additionally confirm that Tosk zjétë means "ten", especially if we compare
that word with the Romanian word zece (ten).

This Albanian -zet reminds me to the Albanian word motër which means "sister" instead of
"mother". Other IE languages are associating word 'mater' (mother) with 'maturity' (Serbian
mater mother, mator old, mudar sagacious, matori father) and it clearly shows that something
unusual is going on when Albanian language is in question.

Experimental balloons! Did Abdullah take part in the newest "revision" of Pokorny's IE?

Monday, 24. December 2007, 12:02:17

Below is the message titled "Illyrian = Albanian", posted by Abdullah on sci.lang in July 2007.
Intersting, Abdullah tried to remove that post immediatelly, but for his misfortune, Trond was
much quicker with a reply...

The same message was posted by Abdullah on another NG (dk.kultur.sprog)

It is very symptomatic that Abdullah erased his "Illyrian = Albanian" initial message from
dk.kultur.sprog too.

What was he afraid of and what forced him to act like that?

1) Maybe he lied about his participation in in that "linguistic project of the millennium" and
suddenly realized that he might have been caught in the act of lying?

2) Maybe A. Lubotsky and G. Starostin warned Abdullah to keep his mouth shut, because they
were reluctant at the slightest thought that the two "admirable scientist" could be brought into
relation with an ignorant folk etymologist of the A. Kunushevic kind?

3) What is the role of the Soros' "humanitarian" organisation in the burst of Abdullah's
unexpected "shyness"?

4) Is it posible that the shaping of the future "scientific world" is going to depend on the mood of
NGO "branch offices" and their "advisors in chief" - financially richest and mightiest people in
the world?
Wherever you look you can see numberless "experimental baloons"!

Dušan Vukotić

[...Abdullah Konushevci:

[...] in "An Etymological Dictionary of Proto-Indo-European Language", a revised version of
"Indogermanisches Etymolgisches Wörterbuch" by Pokorny [...], most of my etymologies and
my view about laryngeal hardening in Albanian were accepted as true arguments. Especially is
to be noticed the sign of equation between Illyrian and Albanian.

I've been bursting with curiosity for days. Would you mind expanding on this?

Trond Engen

Illyrian (Slavic) Tribes

Sunday, 23. December 2007, 22:38:06

Abri; Serbian surname Obrići, Obrenović, Branići; those who defend themselves, defenders;
fromSerbian o/d/braniti (defend)

Albanoi; family names Albijanić, Labanić; Labović, Albić, Alavanja, Labus; toponyms Lab,
Labin.Lapovo (obviously Albanoi and Labeati were the two names of the same Slavic tribe
called Labani or Labinjani (related to the Serbian verb livati/liti (pour, libation); when prefixed by
the preposition *sa- (with) Labani could became S-labani, S-lavani (Slavs); of course these two
names, Labani and Slabani/Sloveni/Slavs are most closely related and I will explain it soon in a
new thread.

Amandes; Serbian tribe Mandići.

Andizetes; Serbian tribe Antići; ancient Antes; originally derived from the verb goniti /drive,
hunt/; hunters.

Ardiaei (Vardaei); Serbian surname Varda, village Varda in central Serbia; related to Dardani,
Serbian Tvrdani; Serbian varda is a apheresis of ut-vrda (fortress; t/vrđava) and varda has the
same meaning in Serbian as tvrđava (fortress).

Ardian; same as above, varda.

Autariatae; those people were on and around the today's Serbian mountain Tara (Western
Serbia); Serbian surname Tarana; as we can see the names of the mountain and the river ─
Tara are derived from the same source as the name of the river Drina (Tara is the tributary of
Drina) and the name of the ancient Autariatae's centar Tariona (all words connected to the
Serbian words teranje (driving, forcing, urge or force /a person/ to an action), udariti, udaranje
(hit, strike, beat); hence also Illyrian-Slavic tribes Deuri (Serbian family names Devrići, Deurići,
Deure, Deronjići, Deretići; when we observe the Serbian verb udarati/udariti (hit, strike, beat)
and compare it with other Serbian words as derati (flay), terati (force, drive, terrorize), trenje/treti
(de-trition, friction), sa-tirati (destroy) then we are getting a clearer picture what really has
happened, not only to the name of the Autariatae tribe but also we are going to understand
where the other tribe names (as above Deuri or even Dardani and Dindari; cf. Serbian surname
Tintor) originated from.

Breuci; probably Serbi Prečani; from the Serbian adverb preko (over, through, beyond; in this
case "beyond the river Drina" - Serbs from Bosnia).

Bylliones; Serbian tribe Bjelani; Serbian town of Bijeljina in Bosnia; Bjelice a tribe in

Carni; Serbian surnames Carić/Karić, Karan/Caran also Zarić all related to the word Car /Czar/).

Catari; Serbian family names Kotarica, Kotorić, Čotrić; from the Serbian kotar (district) or četvrt
(quarter, section).

Celegari; maybe Serbian family name Kolesar?; from kola “cart makers”; the name acquired
according to the proffesion they mostly were engaged with.

Ceraunii: Serbian Gorani, Goranci highlanders, people from mountains).

Daesitiates; Serbian family names Dostići, Dostanići; from Serbian dostignuti/dostići reach,
achieve, acomplish; cf. English destination (from Latin destino -are to make fast, fix down; to fix,
determine, settle, appoint)

Dalmatae; in the year 1983 Heinrich Kunstmann wrote a chapter in his book (Die Welt der
Slawen) under very interesting heading: Kamen die westslawischen Daleminci aus Dalmatien?
(Did the West-Slavic Daleminci come from Dalmatia?; 364-371). Kunstmann writes:

"Dass ebenfalls altsorbisches Glomac aus dem Landschaftsnamen Dalmatia enstanden sein
kann, hat eigentlich schon £. Schwarz überzeugend gezeigt. Mit vollem Recht hat Schwarz aber
auch altsorbisches Glomac, das noch heute in dem Namen der Stadt Lommatzsch enthalten ist,
mit dem dalmatinischen ON Glamoc in Verbindung gebracht, was besagt, dass beide
Toponyme Vertretungen für Dalmatia sind, ohne dass dabei einem unbekanten alteuropaischen
Volk die Rolle des tertium comparationis zugewiesen werden muss."

Kunstmann follows Germania's Serbs called Dalminci/Glomači (Sclavi, qui vocantur Dalmatii) to
Illyria's Serbs, to Duklya/Dalmatia, to Dlamoch and Glamoch. He also added that there would be
no need to search for a certain Old-European (extinct) people, because the etymology of the
names Daleminci/ Glomači and the Balkan Dalmatae/Glamoč is clearly Serbo-Slavic. Of course,
Kunstmann was right, because the Dalmatian name was born from the Gon-Bel-Gon basis;
wherefrom the Serbian word dolmača => dumača (valley, barrow, hole, pit); from Glumača
(g=>d velar to dental sound change; i.e. Serbian hum/humka (mound) from hlum or hulm/helm
(from humila => gomila heap; also known as mogila; this word suffered a very hard transposition
of sounds and syllables within the word); all finally related to the Serbian word oblak (Serb.
kobeljanje rolling about; kobeljanje oblaka “rolling of the clouds”; Latin cumulus (heap, pile),
accumulo -are heap up, pile up; Serb. n/a-gomilati heap up, pile up). In reality, Serbian glumača
and dlumača/dumača have opposite meanings: Glumača/Glamoč/Glomač is the mountainous
area and Dlumača is a sub-mountainous region, which appeared to be a deep pit when
observed from the mountain's heights.
Daorsi; Tresići, Trsići; Serbian village Tršić where the great Serbian linguist Vuk S. Karadžić
was born; from trsiti se (be courageous), otresit (self-assured); towns of Trsat in Dalmatia and
Trieste in Italy Dardan; the Serbo-Slavic tribe's family and personal names Turudići, Tvrdići,
Turudija, Darodan, Tvrdani (interesting in the Bible Darda is "a wise man" and in Serbo-Slavic
Darodan is "a gifted man") Dassaretae; Tesarić (Serbian tesar carpenter; daska board, plank;
also German Tischler, Tisch; Serbian Tesla, Teslić from verb tesati hew; testera saw).

Docleatae; Serbian surmane Dugljević; village Dugulja (cf. Duklja the ancient Serbian state) in
Crna Gora /Montenegro/; related to Serbian dolina (valley) and daleko (distant); wherefrom the
words as Serbian adverb dug (long; from Gon-Bel-Gon basis; do-/b/l-gna => dolina (dingle); do-
/b/l-gna => du/l/gina => dlgina => dužina (length); dlgo => dugo (long).

Enchelaeae: probably Serbian surname Angelići, Anđelići; angel.

Glintidiones; Serbian family name Glintići; from glina clay.

Grabaei; Serbian Grabići, places as Grablje, Grabovo; from Serbian grabiti (grab); cf. A kind of
tree grab (hornbeam; Lat. Carpinus); cf. Serbian kriv (curved), the well-known Serbo-Slavic tribe

Japodes (Jafydes, Japydia, or Japygia, in Italy); probably Serbian surname Japundža (japundža
"a kind of a gown"; from Gon-Bel-Gon basis; Serbian /h/oble-gna => obleka (cloth) => oblačenje
(clothing); the other possibility is the Serbian word japadno "on the shady (shadowy) side of a
hill"; japad => zapad (west); this word is also derived from Gon-Bel-Gon Ur-basis /h/o-pal-gnuti
=> o/pa/l/dati => opadati (falling) => padati, palo (fall, fallen).

Illyri; there is no one in the world who can say that Illyrian language ever existed; also, no one
can say that Illyrians were ever a compact nation. The name Illyric might be connected to the
instrument lyra and Latin hilaro -are [to make joyful, to cheer up]. In fact, Illyrians could be
named Kolarići in Serbian (cf. today pejorative name for Serbs and Yugoslavs in Germany -
Kolaritsch). Of course, the initial velar is omitted in Illyric, just as it happened in thousands of
other IE words (cf. Greek ήλιος/helios the sun). (H)elios (the sun) was named like that thanks to
the round shape of that star (Serbian kolo circle; Greek κύκλος circle, κυλιστος twined in a
circle). The Serbian word KOLO also means 'dance' (Serb. kolo igrati - dance, celebrate; here
we can see that Latin celebratio clearly corresponds to the Serbian word 'kolovrat' [vrteti se u
kolu - to rotate in a circle]).

Now we know that Latin 'hilaro' is the same word as Serbian 'kolari' (those who dance,
celebrate, kolovrte or vrte se u kolu). The name Slavs also comes from the verb 'slaviti'
(celebrate or dance in a circle). Additionally, Serbian words 'slaviti' (celebrate) and 'sloboda'
(freedom, liberty) came from the same paleo-basis (shur-bhel-ghon). Interesting, the same logic
was present when Albanians took the Latin word 'hilaro' as their 'liri' (liberty; from hilabr => liber-

Lopsi; Serbian tribe Lopušine; probably from Latin lupus (wolf); there is the Serbian word lupež
(rogue, villain), also lopov (thief).

Narensii; Neretvljani, Serbo-Slavic river Neretva, Nerodiva (fruitless), similar to the river
Nerodimka (from Nerodibka => Nerodivka; cf. Neretva) in Serbia (also infertile, barren) that bore
the name Rodimka (fruitfull, fertile), before its bifurcation disappeared (desiccated); cf. the
village Nerodimlje by the reiver Nerodimka in Serbia, village Radimlje (near Stolac, Bosnia), and
village Radomlje (Slovenia), village Radovlje (Bosnia), village Radoblje (Croatia). In these
cases, there are two key words: radjati /rod, rodovi/ (to give birth, genus, relatives) and the word
radovati se (be joies), both closely connected because the people of the Balkan consider the
birth (especially the son's birth) to be the greatest joy possible.

Ortoplini; obviously, the names Rodovlje (rodovlje relatives, genus), Rodoblje, Radovlje,
Rodimlje, Radimlje, which could also be derived from the Serbian word rodoljublje (patriotism),
Rodoljub (personal name; one who loves his nation) are very close to the above tribe name -
Ortoplini. As we know, the Greeks had a custom of adding an initial vowel to the words of the
foreign origin (cf. Slavic Radgost, Greek Αρδαγαστος, Egypt/Αιγυπτος from Latin Coptus, Arabic

Oseriates; there are many of Slavic tribe names well-known during the Middle Ages: Krivići,
Vjatići, Hrvati, Bodrići, Ljutići, Dragovići, Severjani (Severci), Milinzi, Duljebi, Došani, Timočani,
Strumičani, Pomorani, Rugini, Poljani, Planjani; (all under the common name Sloveni /Slavs/);
Even today, Serbian people in Montenegro are organized in tribes: Vasojevići, Lješnjani, Bjelice,
Grbljani, Piperi, Crnmničani, Moračani, Rovčani, Ceklinjani, Njeguši, Drobnjaci, Pivljani, Banjani,
Paštrovići, Zećani, Mrkojevići, Bjelopavlići, Cuce, Čevljani, Bratonožić, Herakovići, Mandići,
Ozrinići, Pješivci, Zagarač i Komani. In reality, any village of the Balkan Serbs/Slavs could
potentially be a new "Illyrian nation". Among medieval tribes was a tribe called Jezerci and that
Jezerci could be compared to the Illyrian Oseriates and to the Mentenegrin Ozriniće (the author
of this text belongs to the Ozrinic tribe).

Pannoni; there is a division between people living on mountains (Serb. Planinci, ancient
Plananji) and the people living in plains (Poljani); similar to the above-mentioned division to
Glomače (highlanders) and Du-l-mačane, Dalmate (submountaines people).

Parentini; Serbian family name Parentići; for instance, there is a Serbian tribe in Bosnia called
Parjenice (in accordance with a certain implement in which the cloth is steamed (Serb. para

Plearaei; maybe Serbian pljevari (threshing people; Serbian pljeva (chaff).

Sardeati; Serdani; Serbian family names Srdići, Sredići; the hillock Srdj above Dubrovnik.

Scirtones; related to the Balkan PN Skadar, Skradin; Zagradjani, Zagorje; Serbo-Slavic family
names Zagorac, Škurtić. Škundrić.

Seleitani; probably Serbian surname Slatinjanin; Serbian slatina (salty land, moor); from the
Serbian verb zaliti/saliti wash down, suffuse; hence Serbian zlato (gold) and surname Zlatanić.

Taulanti; cf, Serbian village Tulanovce (Talinovac); in fact, Taulanti is the name similar to
Dalmatae; Taulanti are the people living in valleys (Serbian dolina, German Tal); Serbian family
name Doljanin, Slovenian Dolanc; cf. village Doljanovci (Slavonija/Croatia).

Saturday, 22. December 2007, 22:50:40

Try 'Rhodope'. Explanation please.

The easiest answer to this question would be if we said that Rhodope is an "Illyrian topnym".
Doesn't matter if we don't know what the notion "Illyrian" bears in itself.

In case of Rhodope another fiction language appeared to be "responsible" - Thracian. Some of
the serious scientists believe that Rhodope is a compound word composed of rod + api (red +
water); i.e. from an imaginary Thracian rudas red/reddish + apa water, river, stream. In Serbian
it could be "calqued" as Rudo-potok (from Serbian rudan, rudeti, rujan reddish and potok brook,
creek; cf. Bulgarian Rodo-pite/ Родопите. If Dospatska Reka had an earlier name Rodopite or
Rudi Potok (red creek) and that name had been later extended for the mountain name, we could
say that the history of the name of mountain Rhodopi is completely resolved.

The other possibilities is that the name Rhodopi/RODOPITE originated from the
Bulgarian/Serbian word RODOVIT (fertile, fruitful, proliferous; Serb. rodovit, rodan; similar to the
Kosovo toponyms Rodimlje /fruitfull/ and Nerodimlje /fruitless, barren/ that I have already
discussed in this thred earlier).

Nevertheless, it doesn't matter which one of the etymologies we are going to accept because
the name Rхodopе is of the clear Serbo-Slavic origin. The micro-region RADJEVINA in Western
Serbia has a similar name to Rhodopи; one of the Rhodopian mountains in Serbia is called
RADAN; there is a mountain RUJAN (across the Bulgaro-Serbian border); PN Rudo in Bosnia

Proximal classical Greek provides 'rhousizô' (reddish) and 'aporreô' (stream) as best matches.
Do you have any other closer corresponding roots? Serb? Any Slavic?

Greek aporreô has the meaning "falling (of a river)" and it is a counterpart of the Serbian verb
obrušiti se, obrušio "falling as water"; Serb. obo-rina (precipitation) borrowed by Albanians as a
word for snow (borë); cf. Ibar river in Serbia known in Bulgaria as Obar; Greek prefix apa-
means "from, away from" and it has nothing to do with "water".

And so I offer as the closest apparent source of 'ope' and your above 'api' ... 'upe' (river) which
is Baltic.

Baltic upe comes from the adjective aplis (Serb. oblo round); hence Latvian peldеt (swim),
similar to Serbian plutati, English float or ploviti (sail), but it is a long story (Serb. oblo /round/,
obliti / suffuse/, oplivati, plivati /swim/, plutati /float/, oplo-viti (sail around); Serbian upliv (stream,
influnce)... Maybe Europe is Ebr-ope or Latvian e-Bura-ope (electronic navigable river)?

(Baltic Latv. 'rud' = 'red'. synth. 'rudupe' means 'red river') If anyone has a closer pair, please let
me know.

I am rather sceptic about "red river" etymology (Rom. raul rosu). I traveled a great part of
Rhodope and I hadn't seen anything "reddish" as a Rhodopian specific characteristic. I see. you
have consulted Duridanov's "Thracian etymology", where he (under influence of an ignoramus -

a charlatan called Harwey Mayer           ) explains so-called Thracian/Dacian words with the help of
Baltic languages.

No. It's not similar at all.

Do not be silly!
Radjevina <= Rodbina (relatives); radjati (procreate, bear, reproduce);
Rodbina => Rodovina;
Rodobito => Rodovito (fertile); Rodan (fruitful);
Radan => Rodan (fruitful);
Rujan (reddish); Serbian "rujno vino" (red wine);
Now I'll tell you a secret: Serb. "radjanje zore" (dawning; literally: the birth of a dawn; rudjenje
appearing of a red color) connects both Serbian words - rujan, rudeti (red, reddish) and radjanje
(procreation), because the dawn is usually reddish (a small ablaut in Serbian: rod (genus, kin,
kind), radjati (bear, procreate), rudeti (getting red); cf. Latvian sarkans (red; directly from the
Sur-Gon basis wherefrom Serb žarko (hot), sunce (sun) and zora (dawn) ; Latv. parādīties dawn
(Serb. poroditi procreate); Latv. radit procreate (Serb. roditi).

I told you everything, but simply you are not intelligent enough to understand the relation among
all those words I enumerated above. I have not heard a more ridiculous answer for a long time,
"river is not round".
Who ever told you that river was round?

Throwing a slug of disjointed words at people does not solve the problem of how Serbs named
districts for Greeks 1000 years before they even existed

For Heaven's sake, If you do not understand what I am talking about and if you are unable to
see the clear-cut relation among the words I mentioned above not even God can help you. The
name Rhodope has no meaning in Greek... didn't you know that? Greeks only noted that name
in a way they heard it from the native people of the Thracian region (the Roman province of
Thrace). The problem is we do not know exactly who that people was and what language they
were speaking. What I am trying to say is (according to the Balkan geographical names) that a
sort of Serbo- Slavic language had been spoken there for many millenniums, long before
Christ's era.

Štetin From Štedim

Saturday, 22. December 2007, 22:05:08

It's really fantastic thing to be completely ignorant like you. If we accept your folk etymology
Nerodimlje as 'fruitless, barren' what we will say about Neropolis? Nerodimja is a village
motivated by river Nero-dim-ja as are many other place-names that you will never understoo.
With same pattern are formed in Dardania, known as such till the second part of XIX century,
also: Niko-dim (cf. also Niko- polis), Shte-dim, Su-dim-je, Bu-dim-je, where everyone that knows
basics of onomastics will notice the presence of root -dim, voiced variant of Alb tim 'house,
smoke'. But, first elements of those place- names I saw as Greek one, especially nero-, niko-.


Abdullah must have been drunk while he was posting the above message and I thought it would
be nice of me to wait until time made him sober again.

Now I understand why the great linguists (the Illyrian galactic minds) A Lubotsky and
G.Starostin are ashamed to be seen (publicly) in Abdullah's company. They were paid to strip
their pants off on the main city square and now they are hoping no one has recognized them
after that ignominious act. Only thing they are (A. Lubotsky and G. Starostin) afraid of [at this
moment] is Abdullah's stupid, unrestrained tongue. Those two new-branded Shqip-Illyrians
ordered Abdullah not to appear anywhere in public, especially not at sci. lang, believing that
their self-inflicted Soros-type-wounds may heal by itself with time.

Actually, I am surprised that Abdullah managed to gather his courage and dared to restart a
debate with me. I believed I shut his mouth for ever.

Nerodimlje is situated on the river Nerodimka, nown for its bifurcation which is dried out
(desiccated) and nonexistent today. It is the reason why that river has been named Nerodimka
(fruitless, barren, sterile). As you can see, Nerodimka and Nerodimlje are derived from the
Serbian verb roditi, rodim (bore, cause to be born; adjectives rodno, rodan fruitfull), Antonym of
the Serbian adjective rodan (fruitfull) is nerodan (not-fruitfull); hence Serbian toponyms
Nerodinka => Nerodimka => Nerodimlje.

In fact, how did anyone expect to explain any toponym in Kosovo by using Albanian language
when we must be well aware of the fact that Albanians have not named a single one
geographical place in Kosovo.

Of course, today they are trying to calque Serbian place names:
Gnjilane (Serb. gnjilo rotten) is now Gjilane (means nothing in Alb.);
Serb. Priština (from Serb. prišt blister; priština augmentative of blister; comes from the Serb.
verb prištinuti pinch), Alb. Prishtinë (no meaning in Albanian);
Serb. Orahovac (from Serb. orah walnut), Alb. Rahoveci (means nothing in Albanian);
Serb. Prizren (from Serb. verb prizoriti (to dawn); hence Serb. prozor (window), prizor (sight);
Alb Prizren (has no meaning in Albanian);
Serb. Peć (from the Serb. verb peći bake, Serb. peć stove, furnice); Alb. Peja (no meaning in
Serb. Glogovac (from Serbian glog hawthorn); Alb. Glogovac (no meaning in Albanian);
Vučitrn (Serb. wolf-thorn; vuk, vučji wolf, trn thorn); Albanian Vushtrria (no meaning in Albanian)
Drenica (from Serb dren cornel, dogwood); no meaning in Albanian

Is there any need to explain the river names as Toplica (Serb, toplo warm); Bistrica (from Serb.
bistro clear; clear water); Sitnica (Serb, sitno small)
Serb. Kosovo Polje (Serb, the Field of Blackbirds; Serb. kos blackbird; polje field); Albanian
Kosova (has no meaning in Albanian);
Should we explain other toponyms as Požaranje (from Serb. požar conflagration, fire), Vrbeštica
(from Serb. vrba willow); Dobroševac (Serb. dobar good; Serb. personal name Dobrosav), Belo
Polje (Serb. White Field), Brod (Serb. ship), Suva Reka (Dry River), Vrela (Serb. vrelo source,
fountain; plural vrela), Poljance (Serb. Small Field), Rogovo (Serb. rog horn), Dragaš (Serb,
drag dear; Serb. surname Dragaš - the last Byzantine Emperor), Istok (Serb. istok east) etc.

According to Abdullah twisted logic, the Slovenian town of Grosuplje is not a Slavic place name
(although it is well known that Grosuplje is Grezopolje (Grazed/Scraped Field);

The name of the Serbian town Prokuplje means "the town of traders" (Serb, prekupac,
prekupljanje middleman; wholesaling; cf. another Serbian town with the similar etymology -
Prokupac); during the XVI and XVII century the Dubrovnik traders had their colony stationed in
Prokuplje. The city name Prokuplje is composed in accordance with the Slavic -le or lje suffixed
words (slav- lje celebration; zdrav-lje health; grm-lje bushes; živ-alj/živ-lje population,

In fact, this suffix -lje is a reduced form of -ljenje (Bel-Gon basis): slavlje - slav-ljenje; življe - živ-
ljenje; zdravlje - zdrav-ljenje.
I suppose that Albanians have "re-baptised" the Serbian Nevoljane into Nevojane (close to
Albanian nevoja /needs/; by the way the Albanians borrowed Serbian nevolja exigency) and
they would probably going to say that Nevojane was an original Albanian name. Unfortunate for
them, it is impossible to explain the history of the Albanian word nevoia without Serbian nevolja
(nevolja, nevolnost is a clear-cut Slavic word).

The name of the village Budimlje is derived from the Serbo-Slavic word budan (awake); cf.
Serbian personal names Budo, Budimir, Budisav, surnames Budimlić, Budić, Budimlija;

Sudimlje is the Serbian toponym derived from the Serbian word sud (court; sudjenje judging;
sudim I judge; sudilište the place where justice is being delivered);

Štedim is also called Shtedin, Shtedini, Shtedim and Gjakja in Albanian. In order to understand
correctly the history of the PN Štetin/Štedim we must first see the etymology of other Serbo-
Slavic words as štit (shield), šteta (nuisance, determent, disservice, harm, loss), štednja
(saving), štedeti (spare, save), štititi (protect). In the heart of the above words is the Slavic verb
stati (stop, stand; Greek σταδιος; standing firm); if one Serb says " stojim iza toga" (I stand for it)
it means he is going to defend his own standpoint; Serbian syntagn " stati iza nekoga" (to stand
in someone's defense, protect).

Serbian word šteta (harm, damage; verb. štetiti/škoditi to harm; Czech škoda harm, damage),
German Schade (harm, damage; OHG scado; Danish skade /harm/) is derived from the same
secondary Ur-basis S-Gon as the Serbian werb škoditi (to harm), skinuti (take off or away,
subtract, remove), za-ginuti/iz-ginuti (perish); Although these words (štetiti, škoditi) appeared
from the same secondary S-Gon basis (from primary Sur/Hor-Gon basis; Serb. cr-knuti perish)
like words štititi (protect) and štedeti (to save, economize) they are different in a philosophical
sense of their development.

If we had been following the twisted Abdullah's logic we would have been able to "prove" that
Shtedim acquired its name from the Albanian word shtegtim (migration, peregrination); Abdullah
just had to say, "it is a well-known Illyrian-Albanian gt => d sound change!", and all problems
concerning the PN Shtedim would be resolved immediately.
In a real world the name Štedim must be compared to the other Slavic toponyms: Štitnjak
(village near Požega in Slavonia/Croatia), Štitari (village in Mačva/Serbia), Szczecin, Štetin
(Poland), Serbo-Slavic family name Štetin.

In addition, we will sea that Serbian verbs štititi (protect) and štedeti (spare, save) are
semantically very close (almost the same) to each other. It means that the village of Štedim can
have only one meaning (as all the other, above-mentioned Slavic places) - and that meaning is
ŠTIT (shield) or more precise "a protective place", harbour, shelter.

What do you think about Dim-ce, as well as Ga-dim-je, probably from Serbian Gad - Dušsan or
maybe Gadura?!


Have you ever heard for a herb called in Serbian kadulja (Common sage)? What about tamjan
(frankincense); both herbs (kadulja, tamjan) are known for their fragrant odor when burned
(Serbian dimiti, zadimiti, dim "smoke"; dimljenje "fuming", kadjenje fumigation;
kadionica/kadilnica - kandilo censer; dimilica ; hence English candle; from Latin candela).

Now compare Serbian dim (smoke), tamjan (incense), kadjenje (fumigation), kadulja (sage),
kandilo (censer), dimljenje (fuming); Originally, Serbian word dim (smoke) comes from Serbian
tama (darkness); cf. Serbian zadimljeno (smoky) <= zatamnjeno <= zatamljeno (dark); related to
the Serbian verb udaljiti (pull back, move backward); i.e. when the sun goes down (Serbian
suton twilight; cf. Serb. utuliti damp, make obscure) it means that the sun is sinking bellow
horizon (utanja, tone, udaljuje se; related to English deep; Serbian dublje /deeper/; dubiti
deepen; topiti, utopiti merge, drown, disappear; all from Go-Bel basis; Serbian dubina/dublje;
Russian glubina - metathesis of Gu-blina => du-blina.

I hope I have been clear enough. The village of Dimce is an diminutive of the Serbo-Slavic noun
dim (smoke); Serbian surnames Dimić, Dimčev. Gadimlje bears the similar connotation Ka-
dimlje , Za-dimlje ; from kandilo (censer; Eng. candle) and kadulja (Salvia officinalis).

Albanian tym is just another loan word, this time from Serbo-Slavic dim (smoke)
Dingle Dell

Saturday, 22. December 2007, 18:09:03

What about the slavic words de-lni and d-lani "palm of hand" Is there a IE language where la-
could be a acceptable root for "hand, palm of hand"?


Above is another interesting question posted on Cyba_Cave_List. The fact is, Serbo-Slavic dlan
(palm of a hand; the inner surface of the hand from the wrist to the base of the fingers) is do-
prefixed word, born from the Gon-Bel-Gon basis. In my previous post on the "Illyrian prefix an-"
thread I mentioned the Serbian words dubina (from dubljina <= du/n/b/l/ina ), dumbina => tavno,
tamno, tmina (darkness; from du/n/bina => du/m/bina => tmina/tamno /dark/) and tonjenje
(sinking; from tonlenje; cf. Serb. utonuti /submerge/ utopljenje /water choking, drowning/ and
davljenje (strangulation, drowning).

A great number of Slavic and IE words in general appeared from the Gon-Bel-Gon basis. Above
mentioned Serbian dub/lj/ina (deepness) is the source of the Serbian adjective udubljen
(concave) and udubljenje (recession, pit, niche). It is quite logical because there is no
depth/deepness (Serb. dubina) without recess or an inward bending (concave shape). Finally,
that udubljenje (concavity) became Serbian dolja/ dol (Eng. dell; from du/b/lja), DOLINA (valley;
from du/b/lina) and the Serbian word DLAN (formed by a last assimilation; primal agglutination
Gon-Bel-Gon => Gublina (Russ. glubina/глубина depth) => Dublina => Dubina (depth); and
Dublina => Dolina (valey) => Dlan (palm of a hand).

I can bet that Irish Dublin is semantically and morphologically the same word as Serbian PN
Dublje, Doljani, Dupljani (Serb. duplja cavity, hollow).

Nahar In The Balkan

Tuesday, 18. December 2007, 23:08:19
Why suppose *ab-no- when <amnis> already means stream, water, river. Inter-amna may be
named from a crossing point in the river or from its watery surroundings or so. Is there reason to
suppose that the name is pre-Latin?

It is supposed that Latin amnis came from abnis (from a/m/bno-; nasalized abno-; cf. Serb. opiti
get drunk, from obliti suffuse and umiti lave, wash - from nasalised o/m/bliti) and it is not a
problem at all. The problem is that some of the self-appointed "experts" are trying to prove that
this *ab-/ *ap- is of a certain Illyrian origin (see my message below concerning Old Irish abann.

As you see, only stupid people or charlatans of Douglas G. Kilday's kind could claim that the
basic IE roots started as an "invention" of an imaginary Illyrian "super-language". Douglas also
is avoiding to give a strait answer to the question on what grounds he claims that Illyrian were
occupying central and western parts of the Apennine peninsula.

btw - that Umbrian rivername Nahar seems Semitic, or can it be explained from I.E.?

Nahar (extremely difficult word) could be related to the words as Latin mare (sea), Serbo-Slavic
more (sea), Serb. adjective mokar (wet); mokrenje (pissing); probably from na-krenuti (n => m
sound change); cf. Nereus (a sea god); nahar also could be related to nadar (Serb. nadiranje a
sudden flow, gush of water);

The Latin word naratio (telling) can also be helpful in this case, but, of course, this demands a
long and more profound explanation. Finally, there is the Semitic root BHR (Arabic bahar sea)
that could be modified into nahar through the (b => m) nasalization (bahar sea; nahar river).

Maybe it was so, who knows for sure. I'm not even sure that the Apulian inscriptions
("Messapic") all represent the same (Illyrian) language.

There is no way that anyone can prove that Illyrian nation and Illyrian language ever existed. It
is one of the greatest linguistic and historical delusion of the modern era.

Don't know if it is already mentioned, but just now I notice that there is another river Nar, with
the town Narona, in Dalmatia..
Naro river in Dalmatia (Narenta) is Neretva in Serbo-Slavic. In Serbian Neretva could mean
Nerodiva (fruitless, barren) similar to the village Nerodimlje (also fruitless, barren) in the Serbian
province of Kosovo, which is now renamed to Albanian Nerodime (of course, Nerodime means
nothing in Albanian).

In fact, the most part of the Balkan toponyms are of the Slavic origin, but no one is yet ready to
tackle that problem and change the whole (well-known!) history of this part of the Mediterranean
Basin. For instance, we can find that Slovenian town Ljubljana (or Serbian Lipljan) has nothing
to do with the Slavic verb ljubiti (kiss, love); i.e. a certain renowned "scientists" are saying "it is a
folk etymology"! In other words, some influential circles decided Ljubljana must be accepted as
an Illyrian place name. If it were true, then the Polish town of Lublin should also be considered
as an Illyrian toponym!

Now, let us consider the Polish village Mokra, Mogren - the beach in Montenegro, mountain
Mokra Gora in Serbia, the river Mura in Slovenia, Morava in Serbia, Marica in Bulgaria.. All
these toponyms (I would say) could be connected to the words 'more' (sea, mare) and the
Serbo- Slavic adjective mokar (wet). The question is, could one hypothetic mahar (mokar,
mohre, more, mare) be related to Semitic nahar (and if it could can we see how it could have
happened). There are Serbian words reka (river), roniti (shed /rain, tears/), rosa (dew) derived
from Hor-Gon basis (according to my Xur-Bel-Gon speech formula), but in case of Nahar or
Slavic mokar (wet) the basis is Gon-Hor (Serbian mokrenje /wetting/ from Gon-Hor-Gon basis).
If we take the German past participle of the verb regnen (rain) - geregnet - we will get the form
that is close to Semitic nahar; similar to the Serbian verb gnjuranje (diving) also known in a
dialectal form as 'šmuranje' what is an equivalent to another Serbian verb - smokriti, iz-mokriti
se (to get wet /in the rain/). In this moment it became clearer why the Serbian verb na-kre-nuti
has the meening "to push into a slant position" and as a jargon it means "to drink"; hence the
other two Serbian verbs: nagrnuti "to push forward as an avalanche" and nadirati (advance;
nadiranje advancing /as if of water- flooding/).

The (D)Raining Δρόσος (Dew)

Monday, 17. December 2007, 10:10:51
I found this Abdullah's message on Cyba-Cave-List

[...Except akru versus d-akru 'tear' we have also Mycean dektu-. Greek diktoum 'net' from
*H1ekt-: Hitt. e:kt-, Skt aksu- and maybe Alb otra*'strong and heavy twine', otresh 'iron peg or
ring' < *eH1kt-ra. (In a cluster of two stops the first is lost: *nokWt- > Alb. natë 'night'.)


It seems Abdullah is trying to say that Greek δίκτυον (net) is a d- prefixed word, obviously not
taking in consideration the fact that this word has been derived from the verb δικειν (throw).
Greek δικειν could be compared to Serb. dignuti (lift) or hitnuti (throw). All these words
originated from the reduplicated Gon paleo-basis. Even the English noun net is coming from the
same Gon-Gon source (knead; Serb. gnjeti; Eng. knit = Serb. snuti /knit/, Serb. nit /yarn, thread/
). In reality, the primeval Gon syllable was a "raw material", from which all the basic words
(those that "describe" movement) were "coined" (Eng. go; Greek κίνηση /movement/, Ger.
gehen, Serb. goniti /hunt, chase, go/, gaziti /go, step, walk/; Skt. gacchati, hanti, kasati /go/).

Imagine what net, need, nettle, needle, knit and nation have in commen?              Any nation has
grown up from the woman's lap (Gr. γόνατα lap, γυνη woman; Lat. gnatus => natus born).
Greek γόνατα also means knee (genus) and that genus is clearly related to the Serbian noun
noga (leg) and the verb nagoniti (drive, force). The English word need (erstwhile meaning
"violence, force") is originally connected to the Germanic word *hunt and Serbian nagoniti
(drive, force; cf. Serbian snaga /power, force/) as well as it is indirectly related to Serbian noga
(leg) and English knee (genus).

Grek δάκρυ is extremely difficult word and it is hard to say if this word is d- prefixed or not. It is
not impossible that dakru somehow appeared from the Greek word ρέιν, ρυάκι, ροή (flow,
stream; Serb. reka river, roniti suze shed the tears, kiša roni/rominja it is raining; cf. Serb.
rominja-ti drizzling and Greek ρεύμα creek, stream). Nevertheless, there is another Greek word
that could help us to unveil the history of δάκρυ (tear); it is the word δρόσος (dew; cf. Serb. rosa
*Albanian otra (strong and heavy twine) is a loanword from Serbian natra (a weaving loom)
where the initial 'n' has been lost.

A Kneaded Donut

Sunday, 16. December 2007, 23:24:12

LAD for hill is actually a big challenge for me, and it may develop into another test case of
Magdalenian. I found no cognates and derivatives, apart from ladder, from an old word meaning
slope. Perhaps lad hlad klad German klettern for to climb. This might be a further cognate or
derivative. Then perhaps laden 'to load' and Ladung 'load', as a heap of fruits loaded on a
wagon rsembles some sort of a hill. It may also be that lad for hill was eclipsed by a word for
love, as Russian lady. I am working on this case.

Franz Gnaedinger

Hlǽfdige? The mistress of a household! Dough-maker! When we look at English 'dough'
(without the employment of the Xur-Bel-Gon speech "formula") we would probably never say
that that word is closely related to Serbian 'testo' (dough).

Farthermore, using my speech formula we will be able to understand the way in which a great
number of words was developed begining with a simple Gon reduplication (Serb. gonjenje; Eng.
going/hunting; Serbian kucanje; Eng. nocking; Serb. nit; Eng.knit; Serb. iz-gon /expel/, is-kanje;
Eng. asking) and ending with words as Serbian is-tezanje, na-tegnuti and English tug or tension;
Serb. taknuti/taći; English touch etc...Serbian 'testo' is "produced" after a certain process of
tuging (Serb. tegljenje, tegnuće; cf. Ger. Teig, kneten; OCS gneti, gnesti; Serb. gnječiti /knead/)
is being applied.

Load (from OE hladan /hlód, hladen/) cannot be taken as a riverse DAL simple because we are
missing initial velar. Load is related to clod and cloud in the same way as Serbian gomila/hlum
(heap) is related to oblak (cloud) and nebo (sky) or Lat. cumulus to nebula; cf. Himmel; OE

All the words you mentioned are going back to your KAL basis or my Gon- Bel; even ladder is a
reduced form of OE hlæder wher initial velar is missed (hence Ger. klettern). I cannot find the
cognate of klettern or (h)ladder in Serbian simply because Serbian followed a different logic
(nebo, oblak /sky, cloud/ => penjati se /climb/; from /h/upinjati se / strive/; cf. OE hoppian /hop/ -
Gon-Bel-Gon basis) similar to OE climban, instaed of clod/cloud "orientierung" (klettern, Leiter;
again Gon-Bel-Hor ur-basis).

In one of my previous messages (where I spoke about unusual parallel relation between Serb.
oblak /cloud/ vs. obleka /cloth/ and cloud vs. cloth) said that I used a certain "semantic tricks",
but everyone who read carefully the above analysis would see that such a semantic relation
(profound and greatly expanded) is more than OBVIOUS! It means that comparative method
must, in the first place, rely on semantics and after a thorough semantic inquiries are done then
we have to observe phonetic rules, which appeared to be unsuitable in some cases (RUKI rule
in Slavic, for example).

The Intergalactic Illyro-Albanian

Sunday, 16. December 2007, 17:51:23

Possibly, yes. The only Slavic reflexes given for this root are indeed river-names, Russ. (one on
either side of the Urals) and Pol. . I prefer to think that Illyrian used *ab-no- for 'river' (as in
Ísamnus from *Ís-ab-no-, Intéramna from *Entér-ab-no- vel sim.), but like everything else here, it
is only a working hypothesis.

Douglas G. Kilday

And you are not able to see that your "working hypothesis is wrong? Let us take an example:
Lat. in-somnia (sleeplessness, loss of sleep) is a cognate of Serb. ne-sanica (sleeplessness,
loss of sleep). According to your "working hypotheses" Latin insomnia must be a borrowing from
the imaginary Illyrian, this time probably from ins-ab-no. I would not be surprised if one day
some profligate "scientist" (of the G. Starostin's and A. Lubotsky's kind) came out with a
"hypothesis" that Slavic spavati, spati, German schlafen, Latin sopio -ire and Sanskrit svapati
are the loan-words from an intergalactic Illyro_Albanian .

Another digression: is Celtic afanc (sea-monster) related to Eng. whale? Old Irish abann and
Welsh afon are clear evidences that Celtic "water" has been derived from the Bel-Gon basis, the
same one where the Serbian noun 'voda' (from bol-da => vol-da => voda) originated from.
Serbian river Bojana (Buna; stream, river) is another example that IE words as abban, affon,
amnis, buna, bojana have the meanings river or stream; cf. Serb. bujica (stream), bujanje

River Bojana (Buna) flows also through the teritory of today's Albania, but, as we can see, its
name is Serbo-Slavic (not Albanian!) and the great majority of Albanian toponyms are still
wearing the Slavic names. As a matter of fact, there is none of the so-called Illyrian place
names that can be explained with the help of the Shqiperian language. On the other side,
almost all the ancient toponyms in the Balkan can be sufficiently explicated with the use of
Slavic vocabulary.

The Cornerstone

Sunday, 16. December 2007, 17:35:50

Let us see what Pokorny says:
[..."Npers. ās (dehnstufig) `Mühlstein'; gr. ακη `Spitze', dehnstufig ion. ηκη ακωκη, επιδορατις,
ηκμη Hes., redupl. ακωκη `Spitze, Schneide' (wie αγωγη : αγω); nach Kretschmer KZ. 33, 567
und Schwyzer Gr. Gr. I 348 gehört ακοω `höre' als *ακ-ους- `das Ohr scharf habend' hierher, s.
              -          `herb, sauer'; lat. acēre `sauer sein', acidus `sauer', acētum `Essig';"...]

If Pokorny had known my Xur-Bel-Gon speech formula he would not have mixed two quite
separate notions: Spitze (tip. point, pinnacle) and hören (hear). His conclusion that ακ-ους- has
the meaning `das Ohr scharf habend' is totaly unacceptable and even ridiculous. Of course, he
was partly right when he said that above words were derived from the reduplicated basis
(unfortunately, he didn't specify which one it was and I would add that it was the Gon paleo-

Greek ακουω (hear, hearken, give ear, obey, to be a pupil of) is a cognate of Serbian uho (ear)
and oko (eye); cf. Gr. ουατοεις (long-eared), Serb. uveta (ears); εσσα = Serb. uši; Of course, all
these words should be compared to those which are signifying first and foremost "noise" (Lat.
clamo = Serb. galama /noise/ = Eng. claim               = Serb. jeka; huk = Eng. echo; Gr.
εκκαλεω = Eng. call = Serb. glas /voice/; cf. Gr. εκκλησιαζω debate therein, Gr. εκκλησία
(church; in Gr. church offical had a name derived from the noun οικοσ /Serb. kuća house/ =>
οικονομισσα female official in the church; Serb. kućenje economizing, kućanica hostess); i.e.
εκκλησία is equal to Serbian glas (voice), oglas (advertisement) and glasanje (voting); hence
also Gr. άγγελος (angel); Serb. glasnik (mouthpiece, messenger, forerunner).

All the above words were derived from the agglutinated primeval Gon-Gon-Bel-Gon basis: Serb.
oganj (fire), ognjilo/oknilo (a visible area), okno (window), okolina (environment, surrounding),
okolo (arround), oko (eye), uho (ear); cf. Serb. osluhnuti (hear; from ho-h- lu-hnu-ti; related to
the above mentioned Serb. okolina surrounding), sluh (hearing).

It is said above that Pokorny was "partly" right because (I hope it is absolutely clear now) the
words αγωγη and ακουω came out of a different milieu (although it may look otherwise at first
sight); i.e. αγωγη is a clear Gon-Gon derivation while ακουω (like Serb. jeka, huk noise)
originally appeared from a simple reduplicated Gon basis, just as it happened to the "sharp-
angular" words γωνία (Eng. angle; Serb ugao), κινητός (movable; Serb. goniti drive, hunt; Eng.
hunt), but with different connotations: one could be expressed through the Serbian syntagm
"ugoniti u ugao" (driving/forcing into the corner) and the other through " osluhnuti okolinu" (listen
to the environment); therefore there are Latin angulus (angle) and akumen (sharp point), Serb.
"ugaoni kamen" (a corner stone) and kama (knife); Gr. γωνία (angle) and ακωκη (a point).

I could continue similar analysis for hours, but I think that the above explanation is enough for
any (sound) human being, at least as an incite to begin to understand that (as Italo put
his_sharp_question in this thread) we need no Pre-Latin vocabulary, especially not one
imagined by alleged lingua-scientists who manufactured the so-called Illyrian nation and Illyrian
language on a scanty basis of a dozen of words written (wrongly of course) by the Latin and
Greek writers.


Sunday, 16. December 2007, 16:34:31

Andetrion, Dalmatia (Strabo) Anausaro, road station (TP Miller IR col. 571-573. Rav. IV 15).
Andarva/Anderba, road station Miller IR col. 462-471. IA Cuntz 338, 7. Rav. IV 16)
Andizetes, Panonian tribe (Strab. VII 314. Ptol. II 15,2) Andautonion (Ptol. II, 14,4), city in
Bulentum/Bolentum, if identical with Bulet close to Dubrovnik and if from Alb appellative bulim
'spring' (Jokl, Skok), I think that testifies for its high frequency in many place names with it
prefixed form: Ombula/Jambula, Ubla/Obla, Bul-ofçe/Bolec in Dardania etc. Forms
Ombula/Jambula are from prefixed form *H1en + bul- with characteristic assimilation -nb- > -mb-
, later reduced on -b-/-m-.
From last example we could suppose that place names Andetrion, Anausaro, Andizetes,
Andarva, Andautonion are indeed prefixed forms of -detrion, -ausaro, -dizetes, -darva, because
H1en is treated in PAlb. as -ân in Gheg dialect and -ën in Tosk one. So except aus- and ar- as a
first element on many Illyrian place names, exists also as prefix an- attested in many other place
names. Andetrion, Dalmatia (Strabo) Anausaro, road station (TP Miller IR col. 571-573. Rav. IV
15). Andarva/Anderba, road station Miller IR col. 462-471. IA Cuntz 338, 7. Rav. IV 16)
Andizetes, Panonian tribe (Strab. VII 314. Ptol. II 15,2)
Andautonion (Ptol. II, 14,4), city in Panonia.
Bulentum/Bolentum, if identical with Bulet close to Dubrovnik and if from Alb appellative bulim
'spring' (Jokl, Skok), I think that testifies for its high frequency in many place names with it
prefixed form: Ombula/Jambula, Ubla/Obla, Bul-ofçe/Bolec in Dardania etc. Forms
Ombula/Jambula are from prefixed form *H1en + bul- with characteristic assimilation -nb- > -mb-
, later reduced on -b-/-m-.
From last example we could suppose that place names Andetrion, Anausaro, Andizetes,
Andarva, Andautonion are indeed prefixed forms of -detrion, -ausaro, -dizetes, -darva, because
H1en is treated in PAlb. as -ân in Gheg dialect and -ën in Tosk one.
So except aus- and ar- as a first element on many Illyrian place names, exists also as prefix an-
attested in many other place names.

Because I haven't access to the Cybalist for ours, I am forced to reply to Sciarreta Antonio that I
am aware of the variant form Sanderua in the Tabula Peutingeriana, but we must be aware also
that exists Illyrian tribe name Dervanes (Appiani Alexandrini, Historia Romana, Illyrica,
paragraph 28), so An-darva/An-derba seems to back up attested forms Andarva and Anderba
as primary one.


In fact, Andetrion is "hanterion" (Gon_Hor-Gon basis); related to Skadar (Skender; Skodra);
Serbian surname Škundrić; Serb. zagrada (brace, fence, hedge, bracket; there are many
Serbian villages with the name Zagradje; hence Serb. zgrada building cf. Serb. kotar district); all
related to the Serbian noun 'udar' (from hundar; Serb. verb handriti/udarati beat, pound); Serb.
tvrđava, utvrđenje fortress; clearly from Serb. udar/h/anje => utrhenje => utrđenje => utvrđenje
(prosthetic "v"). As explained above: Andetrion is nothing else but a Serbo-Slavic ut/v/rdjnje; i.e.
a nasalized form uNt/v/rditi/ uNtvrdjenje "adjusted" for the Roman ear.

Anausaro is a present Serbian village of Staro Nagoričane (Старо Нагоричане) near
Kumanovo (similar as above Andetrion; derived from Gon-Hor-Gon ur-basis (nagraditi, ograditi
fence, brace, nadgraditi; Serb. nadgradje superstructure

Again the same, but this time from Gon.Hor-Bel basis (Serbian tvrđava; from hundarba = utrdba
=> utvrdba (known in Serbian also as utvrda or tvrđava /fortress/); from the above analyses we
can see that Serbo- Slavic word drvo (tree) acqired its name from the name of the fence (Serb.
taraba /palisade/; related to tvrđava!)

These three Roman fortresses: Andetrion, Anausaro, Andarva/Anderba were in reality a
distorted Serbo-Slavic noun 'tvrðava' (fortress; from utvrda, tvrdina, utvrditi, udariti, handriti,
nadgraðe etc...); there are a great number of similar examples which are telling us that Serbo-
Slavic people were NATIVE to Balkan (exactly as Ana Komnena stated in her work "The
Alexiad") a long time before the VI century and alleged "The great-migration of Slavs". Actually,
the Slavs inhabited the Balkan Peninsula even in neolithic times (Lepenski vir, later Vinèa) and
they were called the Illyrians by Romans.

Albanians are SO-CALLED (as Ana Komnena referred to them) and they were brought to the
Balkan during the 11th century AD

Phonetic laws could sometimes be a big obstacle in a right understanding of the process of
language development. In this specific case we have to deal with Gon-Hor basis or with the
compounded PIE root gon/ter; it means that we do not need any rules (all we need is a sound
mind) to see that German jagen, Eng. hunt, Czech honit and Serb. goniti /drive, chase, hunt/
were derived from the same ur-basis.

It is quite the same if we talk about "in" or "out" because the both phonemes sprang from the
same Gon-Hor source. For instance, the Serbian word 'unutar' (inside, indoors) is an equivalent
to the English words 'enter', 'under' and 'inter' (cf. Eng. entrails and Serb. unutrica /entrails/ or
Serb. 'jetra' /liver/). Serbian verbs 'oterati' (drive off, drive away; from honterati) is comparable to
English "outer" world; while Serbian 'uterati' (force in, beat into, corral; from hunterati) is
"concordant" to English "in". "Laryngeals" could be helpful here only if we understood that their
"vowelization" was determined by the need of "notion distinction" and that it has gone differently
in different languages.

The Tearing River - Drina

Friday, 14. December 2007, 08:56:05

Writing about Albanian place-name Shkalla e Dunjas (Watery Stair) I have noticed that we have
to deal with prefixed form d-unj-as (for suffix -as cf. Mamuras, Përrenjas, Bishkas), where -unj-
is oldest form of Alb ujë 'water'. Same prefix I have noticed also in Alb place- name Vau i Dejës
'Deja's Ford', attested form dain-ja, lat. Daigna, where d- is also prefix, as we could see from
Ain-ona/Aen-ona. Same root we notice in Alb place-name Bar-aina etc. Having in mind that we
have for nasalized zero-grade form of *reiH- 'to flow, run' the form *rin- and suffixed forms *ril-
and *rei-wo- I came to conclusion that Illyrian/Alb river names Drinus, Drilon are indeed prefixed
form d- + ril- and d- + rin- as well as Drivastum (mod. Drisht) from d- + riv-astum. For the form
Drilon and Drivastum exists also other prefixed forms K-ril-evë and K-riv-açë. Same
phenomenon I have noticed in Illyrian fortess name Dabanos (Proc. De aed. IV, 4), that seems
by all chances to be a prefixed form d- ab 'water'-anos, attested also in Dardanian place-names
Dabesh-ec, Dab-in- oc, Dab-koc and brook-name Dab-oc. Prefix d- in Albanian has intensifying
function: rojë 'guard', d-rojë 'dismay, shyness', dboj 'expel, banish' (cf. zboj 'id.'), dborë 'snow',
besides borë 'id.', zborës, dlir 'to purify' from adj. i lirë 'free', dvarr 'to hurt, wound' (cf. Alb. varrë
'wound') etc. So, to conclude: d- + root *rin- > Illyrian/Albanian river name Drinum *ril- >
Illyrian/Albanian revers name Drilon, Drilo (cf. also above K- ril-evë) *rei-wo- > Illyrian/Albanian
river name Drivastum (cf. also above K- riv-açë) *ab- > Illyrian/Albanian Dabanos (cf. also
above Dab-anos, Dab-oc, Dab- inoc, Dab-koc) *roi-na: > Illyrian/Albanian river names Dren-ica,
Dren-oc etc.


First, what is the meaning of the supposed prefix d-? It seems that Albanians (or confabulated
Illyrians) didn't know why they put the sound 'd' in front of a certain word, for instance in front of
D-riva-stum. As far as I know there is no Albanian form *rin with the meaning of river or flow
(Alb. lumë /river/ is a loan word from Latin flumen and rrëke /flow/ is a clear-cut borrowing from
Serb-Slavic reka / river/). Using the above Abdullah's bucolic etymological methodology, we
could also say that D-riva-stum might be a prefixed Italian riva (bank, river). In fact, if we
followed the similar method of deduction we might be able to prove whatever we want and there
would be no language in the world that could not be the 'omnipotent parent'.

Is there anyone among the celebrated lnguage experts on sci.lang who is able to detect this
simple and primitive Abdullah's Albano-Illyrian "derivation"? Drivost or Drivast was a town
situated between Scadar and Prizren (today's Serbian province Kosovo) and its name is a clear
Slavic derivation from the Slavic noun drvo (tree); Serb. drvenast, drvast, drven (made of tree,
tree-like) and Russian деревня/derevna (village) acquired its name thanks to the tree material
that usually was used for building (construction) of houses.

Drina is also a clear-cut Serb_Slavic name derived from odron (slide, landslide, avalanche), o-
droniti (slide, swoop); hence Serbian compund word VODO-DERINA (gully). Of course, there
are other Serbian words like o-deran (torn), deranje (tear; the act of tearing). Any average
intelligent person (with a little effort) could find a lot of cognates (beside English tear) in other IE
languages (except in Albanian, of course, where tear is 'grisje'; a loanword from Serbian gristi,
grize / gnaw, bite/).

Horutani - The Mountain People

Monday, 10. December 2007, 16:59:11

Karantania, Karinthia, KÄRNTEN (Korotan)? Horutani, (Korotani, Koročani, Gorotani - people
dwelling in the mountains) were the Slavic people but they had not been using the name
Slovenians before the second half of 19th century.

Interesting, today's Croatia is constituted of the former Austria- Hungarian provinces Croatia,
Slavonia, Dalmatia and Istria. As we can see, the most part of modern Croatia is Slavonia, the
name almost the same as Slovenia (both names referring to the common /general/ name of the
Slavs - Sloveni).

On the other side, Horutani or Gorotani were the Slavs that were named like that according to
high mountains they were living on (Serbo- Slavic gora, hora mountain); cf. Slovenian toponyms
Koruška, Gorenjsko, Kranj, Gorica .

The ur-syllable Hor is a part of the name of Horus sun god (Slavic Hors) and in a combination
with the other paleo-syllable (Gon) it could have been marking
1) round form of the sun [Serb.Slav. krug circle]
a) district, area [Serb-Slav. okrug, kraj, krajina; for instance Serbian Krajina in Croatia)
b) any protuberance of an approximately round form [Serb-Slav. kvrga "bump, nub, node";
hence horje, gorje "mountains"; cf. Slovenian Po-horje; Bosnian mountain Ja-horina,
Montenegrin Pod-gorica is a town placed "beneath the mountain"; Pod-gorica = Sub-mountain]
2) irradiation of light and heat that comes from the sun [Serb-Slav. gorenje burning]
a) black color as a result of burning [Serb-Slav. crno, černo]
b) ember [Serb-Slav. žar; adjective žarno, žarko hot; žarenje annealing]
c) shining, blazing [Serb-Slav. jarko from harko; Hor-Gon basis]

Now we can clearly see that Horutani, Gorotani or Goričani (the former Karantanian citizens)
acquired their name in accordance with the mountainous region they were occupied [cf. Serbian
Crna Gora; calqued by Venetians as Montenegro - Black Mountain].

Croatian name (Hrvati, Horvati) is also related to mountainous region of the today's Central
Croatia (Za-gorje!, Zagreb and Krapina county). Krapina is Grbina; i.e. Serb-Slav. grba (again
"bump" or "node", "bulge") similar to above kvrga (bump, node). In this case, Croatia could be
derived from the Hor-Bel basis as well as from Hor-Gon. It means that the above-mentioned
Horutani (Mountain-People) might have changed their name to Horuati (Hor-Gon) and finally to
Horuvati (prosthetic 'v').

But whatever we accept as a right geneses of the Croatian name one thing is certain: Croats
are the highlanders or mountaineers because their name suggests it clearly as well as it
suggests the name of the old Slavic tribe (Horutani, Goričani) today known under the name
Slovenians (or Slovenes).

Curving Of The Snake

Sunday, 9. December 2007, 12:42:19

OE nædre (snake, adder); niþera (down, downwards, below, beneath)

It would be interesting to compare Serbian synthagm "guja u nedrima" (a snake in one's bosom;
Serb. njedra/nedra bosom), because one could say that OE nædre is related to Serb. nedra
(bosom, breast) or even a borrowing from the above Serbian saying.

In order to understand what really has happened here we must go back to the Gon-Hor
"antediluvian" basis whence the words 'hunter', 'enter', Latin interior, intra, and Serbian unutra
(inside; from nasalized uNterati => uterati, naterati /to force in/) originally came.

The English adjective NETHER (lower) explains that n/adder (snake) is an animal that moves
UNDER our feet.

On the other side, English snake (OHG. snahhan) is related to the Serbian noun gmizanje
(creeping; from g/nizanje; niže, niz (below, downwards); hnihanje => snahhan); Serb. snizati se
(to fall down as a rope); hence Serb. gmizavac (reptile).

Finally, Latin correpo -repere (creep) is a counterpart of serpo -pere and both words are related
to Serb. krivo ( krivina /curve/; cf. serpentine = Serb. krivine /serpentine/).

Desiccated Sahara

Saturday, 1. December 2007, 22:40:31

(s)kel-3 English meaning: to dry out Deutsche Übersetzung: “austrocknen, dörren” Material: Gk.
σκέλλω “trockne from, desiccate “ (trans., Fut. σκελω, Aor. ἔσκηλα; intr. Aor. ἔσκλην, perf.
ἔσκληκα), σκελετός “ausgetrocknet”, m. ‘skelett”, n. “Mumie”, σκληρός “dry, hard, rough,
unbeugsam”, σκελιφρός “ausgetrocknet, abgemagert”, σκληφρός ‘small and agile”, ἀ-σκελής 1.
“ohneWiderstandskraft” (without σκληρότης); 2. “unablässig, of rage, fury, of Weinen” (eig.
“unversieglich”); περι-σκελής “very dry, brittle, hartnäckig”, περι-σκέλεια f. “Hartnäckigkeit”;
Maybe Alb. (skol-) hollë “lean, thin” common Alb. sk- > h- phonetic mutatIon. Swe. skäll “lean,
thin, fade, säuerlich”, nd. schal “dry, arid”, M.L.G. M.H.G. schal ‘schalfr
                       , M.Eng. schalowe ‘schal, faint, languid,seicht”, Eng. shallow (also
probably O.E. sceald ‘seicht, not deep”, nd. scholl ‘seichteswater”); without anlaut. s-: O.Ice.
   - ri “Mißjahr”, O.E. hall-heort “ersc                          - -
hellig “faint, languid, erschöpft from thirst “, M.H.G. Hellegen “exhaust, behelligen”, nd. hal “dry,
                                     l, Dutch haal “dry”, M.Du. hael “ausgetrocknet, arid, schal”;
Dan. dial. hælm ‘still”, Dan. helme “cease” (“*languish”, originally vor Hitze or thirst); Ltv. kàlss “
lean “, kàlstu, kàlst “vertrocknen, wilt”, kàltêt “dry”. References: WP. II 597. Page(s): 927

In order to uderstand the above (s)kel-3 root it is necessary to start from the primeval Sur-Hor
basis, wherefrom we have the Serbo-Slavic words sagoreti, suša (from sušara <= suhara driers;
an appliance that removes moisture; cf. Sahara Desert); or we can begin with the Sur-Gon ur-
basis, the one which gave birth to the IE words for the sun (Serb. sunce /from sur-gne => su-r-
nke => sunke/, Skt. surya, Ger. Sonne; cf. Serb. Zornica/Zornjača Venus; the morning star).
Serbian vocabulary contains the word skelet (skeleton), which is probabaly a borrowing from
Greek (σκελετς), although there are a lot of Serbian words which could be a source of that noun:
adjectives usukan (thin, flimsy), isušen (dried out), usahlo (dried up), uzak (small. narrow), verbs
usukati se (usukalo se it thined, it lost its weight, it twisted), usahnuti (lose moisture, dry up),
osušilo se (it dried up), iskaliti (wreak, vent the anger; from suknuti disgorge the fire),
izguliti/zguliti (take skin off fruit, vegetable, animal; remove outside layer of something).

Let us now compare the Greek words ισχνωσις (drying up) , ψυγμος , ψυχω (to breathe, blow)
and ψυκτρα (drying-place) and let us try to understand that these Greek words also were born
from the same bases as above-mentioned Serbian; i.e. from Sur-Hor and Sur-Gon basis (Greek
ψυκτρα /drying-place/, Latin siccarius /keeping dry/, Serbian sagoreti /burn down/, sušara
/drying-place/). The Greek word ξηραντικος (causing to dry up) could be compared to Serbian
žarenje (roasting, baking); both words originated from the Sur-Gon basis.

English shrink (OE scrincan) is another evidence that Sur-Gon (the sun) is the cause of any
withering (desiccating) process. I have no doubt that the wise guys on sci. lang will be able to
connect shrink with the other English words as short, shirt, skirt. If some one still has a problem
to grasp the general idea of language development I will try to help him by a few additonal
words: Eng. scura, Greek σκωρία (clinker, slag, scura), Serb. zgura (scura, slag, clincer); follow
the logical array: Serbian izgoreti/sagoreti (burn down), scoreti (encrust), skratiti (shorten).
Finally, it is possible that Albanian hollë belongs to the same group of of Sur-Gon-Bel words,
similar to Serbian skobeljati se (fall down; Lat. co/n/llabo (collapse. fall down; cf. Serbian
sklupčati se shrink, klupko/kluvak/klobuk ball, hank); hence Serbian skupiti se (shrink, collapse).


From an earlier discussion on sci.lang:
Cyba-cave conlangering linguists of the Konushevci type (reconstruction of never-existing
Proto-Albanian) are unable to see that their confabulations and “scientific” self-delusions imbued
their brain-cells so vigorously (and irrecoverable), creating a sort of a deep “rooted” dumbness
inside their mental cortex, that no one of them is capable of giving the simple answers to the
most ordinary questions.

There have never been any *ster “root” and such an idea would be much more suitable to
fantasy writers like Lewis Carroll or (better) J.R.R. Tolkien. The “root” where the all ‘ster’ words
appeared was in fact the primeval basis SUR-HOR. There from we have the words as Sahara
(from Arabic ‘çahra’), Serb. ‘sušara’ (drier; Alb. ‘shuhem’ wither / from Serb. suho, sušiti dry),
Serb. ‘izgoreti’ (burn out), Eng. ‘scorch’, Serb. ‘skoreti’ (calcify, harden, encrust; hence Serb.
‘kora’ crust, cortex; Alb. ‘kore’), Serb. ‘zgura’ (scum, slag, cinder, dross, SCORIA; cf. Serb.
‘izgoreti’ burn out and ‘skoreti’ calcify, harden, incrust), Alb. ‘zgjyrë’ (from Serbian ‘zgura’;
izgoreti => skoreti => zgura). The process of burning (Serb. goreti, izgoreti) is a process where
a large enflamed object becomes at the end a small and “crouched” (Serb. ‘zguren’)
accumulation of rubbles and ashes.

As a matter of fact, what would remain (rubbles and ashes) after process of combustion could
be easily packed up into one corner of an area in comparison with the previous volume that
object had been occupying before burning; whatever was scorched (burned) or destroyed by the
lightning or burning, must have been cramped, distorted and squeezed (Serb. ‘zgrčen’; Alb.
‘ngërç’ /obviously from Serb. ‘grč’ / cramp).

There are other Serbian words like ‘skrkati’ => ‘skršiti’ (break, crack, shutter), ‘skratiti’ (shorten),
also ‘iskra’ (iskriti, iskrenje sparkle); ‘šćućuriti se’ (to squat, hunker, cower),‘saterati’ (pound,
tree, place or shut up in a sheepfold, corral, cote or pound), ‘isterati’ (expel, evict, eject), ‘satirati’
(destroy), ‘zatirati’ (eradicate); velar to dental changes: ‘izgoreti’ (burn out) => ‘zguriti’/ ‘zgrčiti’
(cramp, hump, crouch) => ‘izgurati’ (push out) => ‘išćerati’ (evict, expel) => ‘isterati’ (evict, eject,
fire out), ‘isturiti’ (pop out, protrude, stick out, project; cf. Serb. ‘proturiti’ and Eng. ‘protrude’).

HOR-GON basis was the source of the Serbian word ‘teranje’ (from KRUG / circle/, ‘kruženje’
/circling/, ‘traženje’ /search/, ‘teranje’ /via ‘ćeranje’ driving/; and the Serbian mountain and river
Tara has nothing to do directly with Albanian ‘ter’ (dry), because Shqip ‘ter’ is the word from the
same “arsenal” as Latin ‘terra’ (earth, terrain), ‘durus’, ‘dura’ (hard, harsh, rough, durable),
Serbian ‘duranje’ (suffer /especially thirst and hunger; also ‘tr-peti’), 'deranje' (tearing, crying),
'diranje' (touching), 'trenje' (friction), 'na-diranje' (onrush /of water/). In reality, English words
‘drying’ and ‘driving’ are related to the Serbian ‘teranje’ (driving) and ‘u/terivanje’ (driving in), ‘o/
terivanje’ (driving out) and that similarity was the result of the “driving out” of water during
flooding period (people tried to “dry out” the agricultural land); hence the Latin ‘terrenum’ (earth,
ground, land, terrain).

Finally, the solution for the name of Tara mountain and Tara river lies in the words as Serbian
‘udar’ (strike, blast, impact, slam, clap), ‘darivanje’ /’dar’ (gift; from 'uterivanje' driving in), ‘drvo’
(Russ. đerevo дерево tree; cf. Serb. ‘gorivo’ fuel), Eng. 'tree' Serbian ‘trebanje’/’po-treba’
(need), Ger. ’treiben’ (Eng. drive, Serb. u/terivanje), Ger. 'drehen’ (turn, spin, rotate), Eng. 'tare'
(weedy annual grass often occurs in grainfields and other cultivated land; seeds sometimes
considered poisonous), Serb. 'trava' (grass), 'otrov' (poison).

(This is the first part of my answer to Abdullah's Cave-list stupidity named "Five *ster")

Underneath are the Albanian words interesting for the current subject; as you can see, most of
them are of clear Serbian origin:

1. Albanian pemë, dru (tree; Serb. 'drvo'),
2. drejtoj (drive; probably from Serbian 'teraj to' drive it),
3. vozis, vozita (from Serb. 'voziti' drive /car/),
4. bar (grass; lëndinë grass-land from Serb. 'ledina'),
5. godas, godita (strike, shoot; from Serb. 'gađati', 'po-goditi' shoot, strike the target),
6. prek (touch; probably from Serb. 'preko' over, Serb. 'preći preko' touching movement),
7. kërkoj (search; from Serb. kruženje/traženje /'krug' circle, see above kruženje, guranje,
ćeranje, teranje/),
8. gris (tear; probably from Serb. griz, ugriz, gristi bite, gnaw),
9. nevojë (need; from Serb. 'nevolja' trouble),
10. shtyp, shtypa (press; from Serb. 'štipati' pinch) ;
11. shtrëngoj (squeeze, tighten, clench; Serb. struganje /shuffle, scraping, shave/, Serb.
'strogoća' strictness, stringency, Serb. 'strog' strict, imperative),
12. helm (poison).

Mixing of Oil

Saturday, 1. December 2007, 09:52:39

Derivation of Latin from Doric Greek is not problematic. Very Old Latin (7th or 6th cent. BCE)
would have borrowed the word from Doric and retracted the accent; the resulting *élaiva: would
have undergone post-accentual -ai- > -ei- and /e/ > /o/ preceding the back allophone of /l/ in Old
Latin; at some point the Penultimate Law displaced first-syllable accentuation; in Classical Latin
-ei- was monophthongized to -i:- and the nom. sg. -a: was shortened to -a. All of these changes
are regular and have parallels in other words.

Douglas G. Kilday

Of course, olive is a derivation of Greek leibo (pour in), Latin libatio, Serbian u-livati (pour in): cf.
Latin proluo /wash away, to wash out the stomach/ and Serbian proliv /diarrhea/, prolivati /pour
out, disgorge/; Greek elaion (olive-oil), Latin oleum (oil), Serbian ulje (oil); we can see also that
Greek λιπος/lipos (lard) has been derived from the same Bel-Gon basis as Grek leibo, Lat.
libatio or Serbian verbs ulivati (pour in), livati (pour); Farther etymology of these words is
completely transparent in Serbo-Slavic languages: Serb. oblak (cloud), obala (coast), obljubiti
(stick close, together; from oblo /round/ + biti /strike, beat/like water that beats coast banks), po-
ljubiti (kiss).

I hope, now you are able to grasp the farther relation among English words love, lips and oil. If
not, do not be shy, feel free to ask me

It would be interesting to mention that the Aramaic word m@shach (Hebrew mashach /oil/,
Arabic masahha /smear, wipe/) appeared to be closely related to the Serbo-Slavic words mazati
(smear; Russ. мазать, Pol.             ; Sorb.           ) and mast (lard). The history of the word
mazati (smear) is absolutely clear: it originated from the reduplicated ur-syllable Gon; i.e. from
nanos (naneti deposit, silt); nanos => namaz (nasalized nanas; deposit => smear). Now, we can
see that whatever we deposit or silt up as if with mud must be mixed; hence the similarity
between Serb. mešati (mix), Latin misceo miscere (mix), Greek μιξις (mixing); cf. Greek
μιξοφυης and Serbian mešavina (both with the meaning "of mixed nature").

Taking in a serious consideration the above mentioned words it seems unlikely that the word
mask has been borrowed from Arabic maskhara (buffoon), because the original (primeval)
masks were a mixture of a colored mud, which had been deposited (put) on human face; and
putting the mud on face demands mixing as well as mazanje (smearing; Slav. mazati smear).

It seems that only one question remained still unanswered: is the Semitic word mashach (oil) a
ma- prefixed zeit/zait (oil) or the word zait (oil) has been formed by apheresis; i.e. by the
ommision of the initial syllable ma-?

I would say the answer is self-imposing because Semitic vocabulary contains the word mzg
(mixture; Hebrew meh'zeg mixture; Tur. mizac, Per. mazaj, âmikhtan).

Acumincum vs. Kamenica

Saturday, 1. December 2007, 07:09:40

                   -                                       -    -
                                                                          -lā; O.E. āwel m. “
   -                               -             -   -                -
                           -                                    -    -                                   -
                               -formant; Welsh ebill                                   -    -

               . pl. “ coarse horse hair “ = Slav. *ošuta m. “ Thistle “ in Church Slavic оsъtъ,
              -s “ fast (sharp in the movement) “. 4. With m-formant: Indo-European Language

Acumincum was the Celtic stronghold and it is believed that the Celts were those who named
that station. Acumincum could not be translated as "salt-stone" ("salt-stone" is the Serbian
name - Slan-Kamen) if someone believed it was the Latin name, but eventually "sharp- stone"
(acus pin, needle) or “sour/acid stone” (aceo acere be sour). It is interesting to mention that
Celtic Acamincum sounds almost the same as Serbian word Kamenac (kamenica a small
stone). If it was a coincidence we must admit that such a coincidence is very unusual. Namely, if
Acumincum was a compound word and first word was acu- (doesn't matter if it was akus or
aceo) what the second part of that word meant? I think, there is no Latin word ‘minci/um’ that
will have the meaning “stone”. Of course, there are Latin words caementum (a quarry-stone,
used for walls; cf. English cement) and cæmenta (stone chips used for making mortar), both
words obviously related to the Serbian word 'kamen' (Serb.adj. 'kamenit' stony). Now comes the
most interesting part of this story: if the Scordisci (Celtic tribe) were the one to name
Acumincum why the Celtic/Gaelic languages do not have a word (as far as I know) for stone
similar to Latin cementum and Serbian kamen/ kamenac? Finally, if the Celts had word similar
to kamen or cement, is it possible to find out the history of that word and see what language
Scordisci were spoken?

The "scientists" who wrote the above notation mentioned the Albanian word akull (ice; akull
doesn't mean "sharp ice" as the author/s tried to mislead his/their readers), a clear Latin
borrowing (from gelidus via Common Romanian; cf. Romanian gheaţă), related to Germanic
kald- and Slavic holod-. In fact, the people (G. Starostin and A. Lubotsky) who wrote this part of
the "improved" Pokorny's book, thought that they must somehow connect Albanian akull with
the Latin acus (pin, needle); or acula (little needle), aculeolus (little needle, pin) and Slavic igla
(Serbian igla /needle/, Czech jehla /needle/, Russian игла;; cf. Serbian klin /nail, wedge, bolt,
pin/); if it was not possible otherwise why would they not use the well- known fact that ice might
be very sharp when broken!

However, this writer/s used the "holy" Pokorny's book to propagate his/their own idea/s about
Illyirian language and Illyrian origin of Albanian people.

There are a lot of Serbian place names Kamenica. A dozen of villages and two larger cities in
Serbia - Sremska Kamenica and Kosovska Kamenica. The whole Balkan area is full of
Kamenica geographical names.

Author/s of the above note seem/s to have really believed that Kamenica was an Illyrian
toponym. Of course, they have the right to believe whatever they want but they have no right to
pollute a great work, as Pokorny's Indogermanisches Wörterbuch is, with their folk-etymology's
interpretation and overheated nationalistic dreams. As we have already seen, Latin, Celtic and
Serbian (Greek also: κουνώ, ακμων) vocabularies possess the word related to Acumincum-
Kamenac-Kamenica, with the proper meaning - stone, rock! Only language where such a word
does not exist is Albanian!

If the people who have revised this book were thinking about the credibility of science and their
own credibility they would advise the author of these passages to draw back all his unproven
and uncertain theories and hypotheses and would demand him to abide strictly by the well-
known scientific methods and standards.

As far as the Danube, if Krahe is correct in regarding Aquincum (near modern Buda, across
from Pest) as an Illyrian toponym containing *akw- 'water'. (I find this plausible, and note that
Gaulish had a parallel formation *abinko- using Celtic *ab- instead, reflected in Catalan and
South French dialects as etc. 'sumpfiges Land; Wasserfall; Quelle; Loch; Abgrund, wo das
Wasser versichert' (J. Hubschmid, _Praeromanica_ 53-55).)

Douglas G. Kilday

If Aquincum was an Illyrian toponym then the ancient town of Aquinum must also be an Illyrian
place name? It is supposed that the so-called Illyrians had some of their colonies on the east
coast of Italy. Aquinum could be an undeniable "proof" that "Illyrians" were spread across the
western Italian coast too. In addition, who were the Celtic Boii (the founders of the town
Aquinum) - an Illyrian tribe?

Let us take another example, the town of Acumincum (Kamenica) was situated on the Danube
in the Roman province of Illyria but we also could find the ancient place Acamantium (the name
of Acamantium is composed in the same way as Acumincum) a town of Phrygia Magna, built by
Acamas - Theseus' son). Could we say that Anatolia was also inhabited by the Illyrian tribes?
Finally, could we draw a conclusion (from all the above "evidences") that the Ancient Greeks
were not the Greeks (because Theseus, according to his son's name - Acam, was the fucking
Illyrian) but just one of the numerous Illyrian tribes?

Using such a twisted syllogism we are beginning to understand that the Ancent Greeks are in
fact the Illyrians and that the Albanians are the descendants of both, the Illyrians and the


Pokorny, by the way, regards your Acumincum as an Illyrian derivative of *ak^- 'scharf, spitz,
kantig; Stein', since the place is also known as Szlankamen 'Salzstein'; obviously P. takes Ill. as
a centum language. Douglas G. Kilday

Slan-kamen is a Serbian compound word and it really means Salt-Stone. In Hungarian that
village is named Szalán-Kemén (again Serbian Slan-Kamen/Salty-Stone). Using your upside-
down logic, why wouldn't we try to solve the problem of Acumincum with the help of Hungarian
language: szál (spear) + kemény (austere, sharp, harsh, hard, rocky); As you see, Hungarian
makes your meanings (scharf, spitz, kantig) more plausible and even doubles your "sharpness"
(sharp spear!).

There is a Serbian word kama (stylet, knife), related to kamen (stone) and to ugao (angle); I
hope you are able to perceive that words ' kama, nož, chakija' (knife) are derived from the same
reduplicated Gon syllable and that only angular (Lat. angulatus) things can be sharp (Serb. igla
needle; Lat. acus needle; Greek ακμή/ acme; Serb. okomito vertical, upright); cf. O.Fr. couteau
(knife) and Serbian kut (angle).

Now, I hope, you are able to see that the Serbo-Slavic word kamen also includes in itself a
hidden meaning 'sharp'.

Glavati άνθρωπος

Thursday, 29. November 2007, 00:24:18

'Cap' was considered by ancient man to be a cover for the head in the same way as it is today.
Therefore the Serbian 'kaput' cloak and 'kapa' cap (from oklapati, oklop cover, armor; Gon-Bel
basis) belong to the words from the same arsenal as the English 'cap'. It is also possible that
ancient man considered the head as to be a sort of 'container' (as Braden sugested) for
assembling of thoughts (cf. Serbian 'okupljanje' assembling; Greek κέλυφος/kelifos shell, hull,

In Serbian 'ćup' (pot) is a scurrilous word for head (cf. Serbian ćup, kabao, Latin cupola, English

It seems it would be interesting to compare the words girl, kerl with the name of the Frankish
king - Carl the Great. Slavic etymological books are saying that Slavic word 'kralj' (king) comes
from the name of that Carolingian king. Even if it were so we still have an important question
unanswered: where the name Karl came from?

Actually, the Slavic king (kralj, korolj) was derived from the ancient Hor-Gon-Bel basis; i.e. from
the Slavic KRUG (circle), where from we have words like Serbian 'kraj' (area, district; I hope that
everyone is able to see that Latin area (from Hor-Gon basis; harea => area) is an equivalent to
Serbian kraj (area); the similar relation exist between the Serbian verb 'goreti' (burn) and the
Latin areo, arere (dry, parched, English adjective arid; Lat. aridus) where the loss of the initial
velar is evident.

There is the Serbian word 'okrug' (district; from okruglo round); in fact, Serbian 'kraljevina' is
'krugljevina' or an encompassed area (zaokružen prostor encircled space) on which the king
(kralj) is enabled to exercise his power. Finally, any enough piercing mind will see that the
Slavic word 'kralj' denotes the ruler on a certain area (Serb. kraj, okrug district, okruglo round);
cf. Latin arealis, areale (open space, area, areal ).

Swiss is probably unrelated to Low German . The latter (with variant spellings) is the only
plausible cognate I know to English; unfortunately it is not attested before the early 17th c. (in
the sense 'very young child, baby'). Whitehall reconstructs an Old English *gyrele or *gyrela, the
WGmc root being *gur- 'young shoot, sprout, Sproß' vel sim., but I have no plausible IE
derivation. Perhaps this word is of non-IE origin.

Douglas G. Kilday

There is the Serbian word 'grlo' that means throat, pharynx, gorge on one side and on the other
it also means cattle. The similar relation we have in Germanic languages where the word calf
(Ger. Kalb) means young bull (cf. Greek kephalos, Serbian glava, Lithuanian galva - head); i.e.
in Serbian young cattle is 'grlo' (throat) and in Germanic it is kalb (head).

I don't think I'll be giving up sound laws anytime soon. Regarding <ánthropos>, the Mycenaean
spelling shows that the -p- comes from a labiovelar, so the derivation from 'downward-looking',
*n.dhr-o:kwos, is highly plausible (I forget who proposed it). The first element would be cognate
with Eng. , Lat. , etc. Originally, <ánthropos> would have been a derogatory term used by
aristocrats (probably in Mycenaean times) to refer to clodhoppers of humbler status, and this
persists in the Classical usage of addressing slaves with it.

Douglas G. Kilday

Greek άνθρωπος is an ancient 'hunter' (gonter) and it can be precisely explained through the
name of Alexander (the Great) and other words in different IE languages as the English 'legend',
'legendary' or Serbian 'ličnost' (personality).

English goblet, French coupe, Serbian kaplja (drop), kabao, kofa (bucket) English occupy (from
Latin occupo); Serbian okupljati, okupiti (occupy, assemble), kupiti (buy, seize); German kaufen;
Latin cupola (barrel, cask)...

Latin globus (ball, sphere); Serbian glava (head); German Kopf (head); Serbian oklop (armor),
po-klapati (Eng. cover, probably from claper; cf. German Klappe), kaput (overcoat, cloak):
Finally, Greek κεφαλι/kephali which can be compared with goblet or cupola; i.e. round-shaped
object (Serbian oblo, oblina - from o-bli- gna (Gon-Bel-Gon) - round, oval Again Gon-Bel basis;
cephalo-, goblo, oblo...

Also interesting, Sanskrit kapala (head), kalvata (bald headed; Serbian ćelav) and even kalapa
(hair of the head); here we can follow the transposition of syllables inside the Gon-Bel basis.

Meeting in the middle of mind amid mediation and mitigation

Wednesday, 28. November 2007, 23:43:10

It is interesting to mention that Hebrew lahagot (invent, think out; lahag study; lehagid say) looks
as if to be from the same basis as the Greek λόγος or Serbian iz-laganje (presentation,
demonstration, interpretation) and laganje, laž (lying; cf. Hebrew 'lashan' slander; Serbian
'lažan' false, untrue, slanderous). Obviously the Hebrew soche'ach (talked /he/; cf. Serbian
kazati say ; German sagen say; Arabic sahih) comes from lesoche'ach (talking; cf. Hebr.
leshakér /to lie/ and sheker /lie/)and all these words seem to be clearly connected to lehagid
(say) and lashon (tongue, language.

Maybe Hebrew followed the same logic as Greek and Serbian in words denoting the process of
argumentation (
                             hear or learn from other), Latin educatus.

Here we have to deal with the triplicated GON syllable, the originator of many IE words similar
to Serbian 'saznanje' (knowledge, English knowing or Latin cognosco (recognise, learn).
Semitic and IE seem to be coming from the same source (cf. Hebrew mada'an knowledge,
Greek μαθαίνω, Serb. umeti know how).

Piter Daniels: Sorry, what does the Semitic root YD` have to do with whatever the IE might be?

I am not sure what are you aiming at. I do not remember me saying anything about the YD

Maybe you should direct the same question to the famous prof. Mozeson... "Therefore, kara
means empty and te (pronounced tay) means hand. Reverse Hebrew raik (empty) and yad
(hand) to get kara-te." ;-)

I said 'maybe' or it 'might be'; I cannot say anything for sure, but I found a great number of the
Semitic words whose morphology and semantic values could be seriously compared with their
IE counterparts. Only what I can say is that we should not reject such possibility just because to
us it seems like an undisputed chance resemblance.

O course, I am talking here about serious reconsideration of the scientific "facts" established in
the earlier period; not about abracadabra science of Mozeson or Cybalist type.

Do not be ridiculous? Your YDY "knowledge" (yada know) has nothing to do with MWD
(mada'an knowledge); they are coming from different roots. Compare madah ("meddle land";
Biblical Madai), midyan (strife; cf, English mediate; Serbian umetnuti put between; međa border;
o/međiti land measuring; Hebrew madad (measure)...mida (measurement; Greek μετρώ
measure, μεταξύ between; Serb. međarenje land marking; cf. English measure)...

It is possible that YDY comes out from the same basis as the Latin 'dato', Greek δίδαξα (taught)
and διδάσκω (teach); Serbian 'dati znanje' (transfer knowledge), 'po-datak' (fact), podučiti,
poduka (teaching), đak (pupil, student); i.e. from the reduplicated 'gon' syllable)... if you are able
to grasp it at all

In fact, yada and mada'an are close to each other just as much as the Latin cognitio
(knowledge) and mens, mentis (mind, reason, intelect) or Serbian sa-znanje (knowledge) and
umeće (know-how), umetnost (art)

Piter Daniels:
If you could read Hebrew, you could see the Dalet and the `Ayin right there in the word
mada`an, and if you knew anything _about_ Hebrew, you would know that the initial Yod of a
root disappears when a prefix is added.

MD appeared to be root here (see limod learn, to be taught; limmud taught, learned, showing
profound knowledge). Talmid (pupil), talmud (teachings). Also midrash (learning process).
Arabic tilmidh pupil, ‘ulama the learned one, tamadun (civilization), madrasa (school; mudarris
(teacher), mudrik (understanding; adraka wise, idrak intelligence; Hebrw derekh road); Arabic
'amid (dean, madh’hab doctrine, religion. Semitic l-m-d (letter)

Arabic madzanna (thought, opinion), also dzanna (mean, think, assume, consider); miqdar
measure, amount and qadara.

Of course, some of the above words are Mem prefixed, but we must have in mind the way in
which the first compound words were "made". For instance, Serbian mozganje (thinking) could
be decomposed to the nouns um (mind) and znanje (knowledge), but it does not mean that
mozganje (thinking) and mozak (brain) are not independent words. Serbian word umeće (know-
how) is glued from um (mind) and gna (znati,know), literally mind + know. Another example,
more appropriate to the Hebrew Mem, Serbian adjective odličan can be litarally translated as
"from person" or "from face" (Serbian prefix od- from and lice face, person); hence Serb.
odlikovanje (medal), odlika (characteristic)...

If we now take the Serbian verb maštanje (revery) we will see that this word comes from the
above-mentioned mozganje (thinking)´and mozak (brain). In this case we could also say that
maštanje (imagining; as I do now ;-) was the mind-building (Serb. um /mind/ + zdanje /structure,

I hope you will be able to continue solving this mosaic puzzle by yourself. If not, than you are
getting too old for any serious intellectual activity
Compare Hebrew de`ah (knowledge) with Latin educo (bring up, educate), Serbian douka
(learning; đak student); Serbian dignuti (rise, get up; 'dignuti dete' bring up the child) and maybe
you can yield something from that

Naturally, in order to understand this "IE-Semitic" evolution of words properly we must include in
our analyses the words as Hebrew ayin (eye; Latin oculus, Serbian oko), Hebrew ozen (ear;
Greek αυτί< ωτίον, Serbian uho, adjective ušno)... We are learning with eyes and ears and our
knowledge depends on these two senses mostly

Piter Daniels: Not when Dushan chimes in. Dushan is probably the principal netloon currently
posting to sci.lang. He believes that all languages -- not just all Indo-European languages -- are
derived from Serbian

I am using Serbian (my mother language) only as a representative of Slavic branch. I could
have taken any other Slavic language and the final "result" would have been the same.

I never told that IE languages were derived from Slavic (it is nonsense), but I said that the
internal logic and down-to-the-root transparency of the Slavic languages seem to be more
expressive than in Roman or Germanic languages.

Peter Denials says: "Yes, we know well that you do "linguistics" by what _appears_ rather than
by what _is..."

I think we are far a way from "real" knowledge in the field of lingua science.

Please, could you imagine a close relation among English word among, Serbian među (among)
and Hebrew min (among, from, out of)?

Hebrew mathkoneth measure (allegedly from the root TKN -'takan' to regulate, measure,
estimate, ponder, balance, make even, level). This takan could be compared with the Serbian
words težiti (weigh), teg (a unit used to measure weight) and adverb tačno (exactly, precisely,

First, your omniscient Denials Excellency, do you know where the English word measure came
from? What is relation between measure and Latin metrum /Greek μετρών/? Are the above
words cognates of Serbian merenje (measurement)? Probably, you would say that Hebrew
m@suwrah has nothing to do with the English measure, although that Hebrew words has the
same meaning - measure.

Let us go back to the Hebrew words mathkoneth (measure) and takan (regulate, measure,
balance). What you can say about Greek μεταξύ (between, amid), μαθαίνω (learn) μάθημα
(leson), μαθηματικά (arithmetic, maths) and Serbian um (mind), umeti (know-how), pa-met
(intelligence). Also, compare Serbian metnuti (put), nad-metanje (competition; and competition
is nothing else but measuring), meta (target, goul).

Are you able to grasp that the notion of measuring is originally connected to the making and re-
making of boundaries among neighbors (Serbian me-harenje => međarenje => međa
/boundary/ or meharenje => merenje (measurement); if I say that Serbian MEĐA (boundary) is a
synonim of GRANICA (also boundary), I hope you will be able to understand that there is none
IS in your "scientifically" made up "linguistics". Actually, word MEĐA (from Um-Gon basis),
comprises the "root" of the noun GRANICA (Hor-Gon; in form MEĐA-RENJE measurement) it
does not mean that MEĐA comes from Hor-Gon basis.

Naturally, from the word međarenje (bundary making) and merenje(measurement; from me-
hrenje) sprung the Serbian word motrenje (observing).

Finally, as a matter of fact, Hebrew madda` came from the root YD in the same way as
mathkoneth (as the books say) is derived from TKN; i.e. madda' has nothing to do with the root
YD; Pay more attention to the Latin words mens mentis and cognitus

Kali Yuga

Wednesday, 28. November 2007, 22:16:37
Franz, it seems that I am the only one (here on sci.lang) who understands exactly what you are
talking about. Despite such a vexing "reality" you are unwilling to enter a serious discussion with

1) In this specific case your DAL and KAL are derived from the same source (Gon-Bel basis)
because DAL came from KAL (velar to dental change).

2) You are right about DAL (walley, dell, dingle; Serb. dolja, dolina), but you are wrong about its
inversed form LAD because it doesn't mean 'hill' (you mentioned ladder as an example) but "to
lean"; from PIE *khli-; Serbian na-klon bow, leaning forward; za-klon shelter; kloniti shun; po-
kloniti bow, endow, donate; English lend, loan; Ger. leihen; Serb. lihva; Greek 'klino' to make to
bend, slope; Serbian lotre ladder, probably from German Leiter); as you well know hill could
come from your KAL syllable (Ger. Hügel, Italian collina, Serb. hum/hlum; Greek gelofos,
kolone, chelone; compare helm, Haube, globus and Serbian oklop armor)

3) LAK is derived from the Bel-Gon basis (PIE *bhelgh-); Greek pelagizo (sea, lake), flowing,
pool; Serb. politi/obliti (suffuse), lokva (pond, puddle, pool); Serbo-Slavic polniti; English fll,
German füllen and it cannot be taken as a basic syllable or morpheme.

4) Your KAL for hell could be related to Hindu Kali Yuga (age of vice) and Serbian 'kaljuga'
(bog) or the Serbian verb 'kaljanje' (pollution) where from the Serbian noun 'kajanje' (penitence)
has been derived; of course, English calcination is close to the above mentioned words (Serb.
kaljenje calcination) because the water-fire principle in a process of speech evolution (Ger.
Flamme, Serbian 'pakao' hell; 'pa- kleno' hellish from the word 'planuti' (catch fire). I hope you
will gather all your strength and forget any prejudice or bad feelings in order to enable this
promising discourse to go on. Please, do not be afraid of me, I cannot injure you through the
aether even if I am a bad Serbian guy

I told you my opinion before, and you didn't really answer my questions. In my opinion, your
XUR BEL GON formula is a poetic aperçu containing a truth: word language may really have
begun with religious formulas, perhaps uttered during a shamanic ritual, early words _were_
short, and there were only few words in the begin. However, a poetic aperçu is not the same as
a scientific theory. You never explained when that formula was revealed to humankind, and
where this happened. You never answered my old question why you constrict yourself to only
five (and now to only three) ur-words. I have the same problem with Richard Fester and his five
ur-words. The Ice Age people certainly knew many many more words.

LAD for hill is actually a big challenge for me, and it may develop into another test case of
Magdalenian. I found no cognates and derivatives, apart from ladder, from an old word meaning
slope. Perhaps lad hlad klad German klettern for to climb. This might be a further cognate or
derivative. Then perhaps laden 'to load' and Ladung 'load', as a heap of fruits loaded on a
wagon rsembles some sort of a hill. It may also be that lad for hill was eclipsed by a word for
love, as Russian lady. I am working on this case.

The original Underworld KAL had a positive meaning, which can be seen in the Greek derivative
kallos for beautiful. The negative meaning came about with the labor of mining.

Franz Gnaedinger


Absolutely right! I told it many times before, but nobody seems to care about my posts... aaahhh
:-( English heaven and hell appeared from the same Gon-Bel womb (cf. Serb. nebo, Lat. nebula,
Ger. Nebel; Himmel; Hölle etc....; /see my post in the "The 'hard core' of IE" thread/) </body>

Not Gon but Gon-Bel! I cannot say that Fester was wrong; on the contrary, his Ur-syllables are
plausible but nevretheless they belong to the second layer of primordial morphemes. In fact, he
did not realize that his <ba> is Bel and that kall, tal, tag and acq were componded, KALL and
TALL of Gon-Bel; TAG of reduplicated Gon syllable, ACQ of Gon-Bel; only OS (I used
Wikipedia's article about Fester not sure was it presented correctly) remained an enigma for me
and I couldn't find the way to fit it into my speech formula. If his OS meant 'opening' as I read in
Wiki (Lat. os or ostium; Serb. usta, Greek stoma all with the meaning mouth; cf. stomach) then it
must be again reduplicated Gon syllable (cf. guest)

Hlǽfdige? The mistress of a household! Dough-maker! When we look at English 'dough'
(without the employment of the Xur-Bel-Gon speech "formula") we would probably never say
that that word is closely related to Serbian 'testo' (dough).

Farthermore, using my speech formula we will be able to understand the way in which a great
number of words was developed begining with a simple Gon reduplication (Serb. gonjenje; Eng.
going/hunting; Serbian kucanje; Eng. nocking; Serb. nit; Eng.knit; Serb. iz-gon /expel/, is- kanje;
Eng. asking) and ending with words as Serbian is-tezanje, na- tegnuti and English tug or
tension; Serb. taknuti/taći; English touch etc...Serbian 'testo' is "produced" after a certain
process of tuging (Serb. tegljenje, tegnuće; cf. Ger. Teig, kneten; OCS gneti, gnesti; Serb.
gnječiti /knead/) is being applied.

Load (from OE hladan /hlód, hladen/) cannot be taken as a riverse DAL simple because we are
missing initial velar. Load is related to clod and cloud in the same way as Serbian gomila/hlum
(heap) is related to oblak (cloud) and nebo (sky) or Lat. cumulus to nebula; cf. Himmel; OE

All the words you mentioned are going back to your KAL basis or my Gon- Bel; even ladder is a
reduced form of OE hlæder wher initial velar is missed (hence Ger. klettern). I cannot find the
cognate of klettern or (h)ladder in Serbian simply because Serbian followed a different logic
(nebo, oblak /sky, cloud/ => penjati se /climb/; from /h/upinjati se / strive/; cf. OE hoppian /hop/ -
Gon-Bel-Gon basis) similar to OE climban, instaed of clod/cloud "orientierung" (klettern, Leiter;
again Gon-Bel-Hor ur-basis).

In one of my previous messages (where I spoke about unusual parallel relation between Serb.
oblak /cloud/ vs. obleka /cloth/ and cloud vs cloth) said that I used a certain "semantic tricks",
but everyone who read carefully the above analysis would see that such a semantic relation
(profound and greatly expanded) is more than OBVIOUS! It means that comparative method
must, in the first place, rely on semantics and after a thorough semantic inquiries are done then
we have to observe phonetic rules, which appeared to be unsuitable in some cases (RUKI rule
in Slavic, for example).

(B)leading Lead
Wednesday, 28. November 2007, 21:37:09

Yes, it might be possible that 'ved' (Serbian 'voditi' lead, guide) or, more plausable, the Serbian
verb 'vaditi' (Serb 'on vadi' he takes out, he scoops) is a part of the compound word MED-VED
(honey-scooper).In Serbian we can see that the verb 'eat'(Slavic j/esti, j/edenje, Lithuanian sti,
valgyti; Latvian est eat, diens meal, Latin edo; Greek edanon eatable);

Now, if we compare the Lithuanian valgyti (eat), Latin ambedo (consum) and Serbian obed
(meal) I believe that everyone with a normal mental capacity will be able to understand why I am
constantly talking about the BEL-GON Ur-Basis, which gave the birth to the hundred of
thousands of the IE words (voda-water, vlaga-wetness, voditi-lead (from v/ladati, V-LADA
government; V-LADAR (ruler) = LEADER; Serbian POJITI (to drink) and POJEDEN (eaten);
POLITI (splash); PITI (drink) VODA (water), VLAGA (wetness), VODJA (leader)

BEL-GON (the sun god BEL + GON paleo-syllable that denotes any kind of movement) GON-
BEL (reversed order) o/blak (cloud; from GON-BEL-GON basis; gn/oblak, g/noble, noble; Lat.
nebula /cloud/ from GON-BEL) Serb. nebo /sky/; from g/n/obla/k; adj. nebeski heavenly (Latvian
debesis /sky/ from GON-BEL; welkin from BEL-GON; heaven from GON-BEL- GON; Lat. polus
/sky/, from BEL-GON Slavic voda (water) is coming from the BEL-GON basis (Serb vlaga /
wetness/ from BEL-GON.

The stream of water was compared with the power of leader/ruler Serbian OBLAK
/cloud/,VLAGA /wetness; cf. river VOLGA/, VODA /water/, VODJENJ/leading/, VODJA /leader/;
Slavic VODA originated from BEL-GON => BOLDA => VOLDA; i.e. from the word OBLITI =>
POLITI (suffuse, splash); Serb. BLJUNUTI (gush), PLJUNUTI (spit), BLJUZGA (slush),
PLJUSAK (rain-shower) BLATO (mud).

It woud be impossible to understand the etymology of the English word LEAD without the
knowledge that this word stemmed from the BEL-GON Ur- Basis.

For instance, what is the relation between the English words LEAD (to guide) and LEAD (heavy
metal)? Is there any relations among the two above words and Latin fluo -ere (flow; flumen river)
Whoever is able to understand the relations between CLOUD and CLOTH, LEAD and FLUID,
FETTER and WATTER or among REX, REGIS, Serb. REKA (river) and German REGNEN (to
rain) that one can say that he is beginning to understand one of the biggest secrets of the
human existence - the human speech development.

Slavic, A Balticized Albanian

Wednesday, 28. November 2007, 21:20:10

[...Baltic lang. were CREATED before Slavic lang. hence the vocabulary shared by Baltic and
Alb. is of Illyr. origin...] - quote from The Electronic Pokorny's Etymological IE Dictionary , the
most recent crippled edition!

Above bunglesome sentence was not written by some common simpleton but by G. Starostin
and A. Lubotsky. Is there anyone who can say why those two linguists do not care about their
own scientific authority and credibleness?

Are these people (G.Starostin and A.Lubotsky) charlatans or Mephistopheles' "learners"? Why
do they follow the steps of an ignoramus (Harvey E. Mayer) who wrote the political pamphlet
with an indicative title - SLAVIC, A BALTICIZED ALBANIAN?

Gospodin, Ospite And Gopas

Wednesday, 28. November 2007, 19:06:55

Physicists go back in time for 13,7 billion years, so allow me to go back for 15,000 years. My
Magdalenian word for hut is KOD, comparative form KOS. You may google for kod kos in the
groups, and you'll find my derivations of KOD KOS and permutations, all in all a dozen words, in
a message in my etymological thread. I am pleased to find many new versions of that word here
in your thread, so it must have been a very important word, and probably much older, perhaps
from the Aurigniacian? over 40,000 years old? As the art of building evolved, as tents became
huts and houses and castles (note the kos form) with many different rooms, including storage
rooms, the hypothetical words KOD and KOS split up into a lot of variants.

Franz Gnaedinger

Why KOD and why not KOG? In this case, it seems that Serb. KUĆA (house) and hut (Serb.
KATUN, koliba) are coming out from the geminated GON syllable (GOGNA, the same basis as
the Latin cogno- /knowledge). Compare Avestan zanga- 'ankle', German Kni (Kniegelenk,
knee), Latin 'genu' (knee), Lith. zengiu 'I stride' with the Serbian GEGANJE-GAŽENJE
(stumping, shambling, walking). I talked about it recently when I tried to explain the history of the
word 'goose', but I would say, no body understood what I wanted to declare.

Let us go astray from the main subject for a moment: look at the German 'Kniegelenk', a
compound word constituted from KNIE (knee) and GELENK (joint); and if we compare this
German word with the Serbian KOLENO (knee) and KOLENICA (knee of an animal, pork knee),
we shall see that these words have appeared from the same source (GON-LI-GON). There are
other words which look to be totally unrelated to the words as GAŽENJE, GEGANJE, GEHEN
(GEGANGEN), GANG, although in fact there are: COLUMN; COLONNADE, CALENDAE and
even the Greek ΚΟLΟΝ (large intestine, food, meat; limb!!!) and KOLΟΝΑ (column, pillar).

In Russian 'host' is 'hazyain' (хозяин) and that 'host' is the Serbian 'GAZDA'; on the other side
there is the Russian 'хозяйство' (hazyaystvo), equal to the Serbian 'gazdinstvo' and to the
English 'husbandry / economy'. In addition, Serbian word KUĆENJE means 'economizing';
compare it with the Serbian HOĐENJE (walking), HODNIK (corridor, hallway), KUT (angle),
KUTIJA (box)…

Now, I hope, everyone is able to see clearly the source whence the English 'house' and
'husband' sprung.
Additional data for an extraordinary BRAIN gymnastics κιβώτιο (box), οικία, οίκος,
οίκημα(house, home), οικονομία, (economy); οικοδεσπότης (host); καλύβα (hut, Serb. koliba);
Serb, KONAČIŠTE, KONAK (Gr. ξενώνας hostel); the place where I was born is bearing the
name GOSTELJA (Serb. Gazda <=> Gost relation Host <=> Guest); am I not born in a
HOSTEL? He, he, he...

Interesting: Ital. ospite (from Lat. hospito host) and Serbian 'gospodin' (sir), GOSPOD (god!) are
the words from the same origin Hors-Bel-Gon (Skt. gopas = shepherd; metathesis gopas >
gospa); GOPAS-ODIN(Russ. один ađin( one) SHEPHERD - THE ONLY ONE (Jesus is the
good Shepherd); Latin 'hospito, hospitare' and Serbian 'gospodariti' (tyrannize, dominate, reign,
prevail, overrule), 'gospodarenje' ruling are obviously the branches from the same stem.

There are more miracles to come... Stay tuned!

Compiled Albanian Language

Wednesday, 28. November 2007, 18:54:22

It would be interesting to see if Abdulah would be able to explain the origin of the Albanian word
'kolibe' (hut, Serb. koliba; Ukr. kolyba). In Serbian, this word clearly come from the adverb
'okolo' (round) and the verb 'biti' (beat, strike). Serbian 'glib' (mud) is the first material used in
the hut construction. Albanian 'baltë' seems to be a clear-cut borrowing from the Serbian ('blato'
mud). 'Koliba' was made of 'GLIB' as 'palata' (palace, Alb. palatt) was "upraised" from 'BLATA'.

Albanian "rule" is 'ZAKON', the same word which in Serbian means "rule", "law", "custom". In
fact, Serbian ZAKON originated from the reduplicated GON syllable in the similar way as it
happened to other Serbian words as 'kuća' (home), 'konak' (hostel), ZAGONITI (drive something
behind someone's back), ZAKUĆITI (SKUĆITI, economize, husband). Of course, there are
hundreds of other words with the same ancestral history, for instance Serb. ISKATI (eng. ask).
All what had been ISKAZANO (told, agreed by talks) became later the part of written or custom
law (ZAKON) and anyone who would dare to break such law should be subjected to punishment
(Serb. KAZNA).
The modern Albanians are trying to prove that Albanian is the descendant of ancient (extinct)
Illyrian language. The fervent 'dëshirë' (desire, Lat. desidere) of the Albanian scientists to prove
impossible is understandable and their young fiery (Alb. 'zjarrtë', Serbian žariti, žarovit; ra-zjariti
to rage; RA-ZJAREN choleric, angry; Serb. ŽAR > Alb. ZJARR) national zealotry, but it looks
enormously ridiculous when some West-European scientists are trying to help the Albanian
colleagues to build the miraculous linguistic castle between earth and sky. I think that the
Albanian MJEGULL (Serb. MAGLA fog) should be dispersed (Alb. shpërthej, Ger. sprengen,
Serb. prsnuti. isprskati, brz, prognati, pregnuti, spregnuti) in order to see the fundament (Alb.
themeloj < Serb. temelj) of Albanian languages, which has been completely made of Greek,
Latin and Serbian vocabulary and a few words Shqiptar have brought from their old Caucasian

I hoped that the descendant of the old Illyrian tribes would have the theory how it happened that
"Illyro-Shqiptar" language borrowed so many Slavic (Serbian) words. I was wrong, obviously.
He, he...
Alb. kastravec (cucmber), metathesis from the Serbian 'krastavac' Sometimes the Albanian
loan-words are so garbled and deformed that it make almost impossible to see where they really
came from.
For instance, who would say that Albanian 'drejtim' is related to the Latin 'directus'?; or the
Albanian 'shekull' (century) to the Greek κύκλος (L.L. 'cyclus');
Albanian 'mbresë' (scar) sprung from the nasalised Serbian 'obrezati' (cut, circumcize; obrez >
oMbrez; similar Alb. ëmbël nicely, from Italian 'bello'):
Albanian adjective 'përzhitur' (scorched) from the Serbian 'pržiti' (scorch);
Albanian 'këngëtar' (singer) from the Latin ,canto';
in Albanian 'motër' is 'sister'!!! (Serbian 'mater' mother);
Albanian 'shpërlaj' (rinse) from the Serbian ispirati, isprati, ispralo se, prati, pranje (wash out,
Albanian 'rrënjë' (root) from the Serbian 'ko-renje' (roots);
Albanian 'djal' (devil) from the Serbian 'đavo-l' (Serb. dialectal
Albanian 'rradhë' (row) from the Serbian 'red' (raw, order);
Albanians are well-known weapon admirers, but they are still using the
Serbian word for the gun (pushkë); from the Serbian verb 'pucati'
(puknuti, puci explode; puška gun);
Albanian 'gardh' (hedge) from the Serbian 'ograda' (fence): 'bregore'
(hillock) from Serbian 'breg' (hill);
For instance, how to understand the Albanian word 'padurim'
(impatience) where the Latin 'duratus' is well visible?

I know that Konjushevic will remain silent again and I wrote this only to show some Western
scientists that the "Sqiptar-Illyrian" story is the most ridiculous fiction and a myth for the unripe,
uneducated and naive, half idiotic people.

Na(m)broj all the numbers! Na(m)biranje => Numbering?

Wednesday, 28. November 2007, 12:50:04

Serbo-Slavic broj (number) was born from the Br-Gon basis (opposite driving; originally from
Bel-Hor-Gon paleo-syllables; cf. Serb. borenje /fighting/ and Latin belliger /waging a war,
warlike/). Compare Serb. preko (across), prečka/pritka (crossbar) and English bridge (OE
brycge, Ger. Brücke) and you will be able to understand the evolution of the words as English
bring (Ger. bringen), Serb. prineti (bring), Russ. приносить, Czech přines (bring), Lat. progigno
(bring forth), Greek παραγω (bring forward).

Of course, there are a great number of other words that completely fit into the above "opposite
driving" scheme - English work, Serbian vršiti (work), Slovak pracovať (work), Serb.
obraditi/poraditi/ raditi' (work), English practice, operation (Latin abrado -radere / shave, to
scrape off; Serb. brijati /shave/);

Slovak obrábať (work), Russ. обработка (abrabotka from obra/d/botka; Serb. ob-rad-ba; radovi
works/, rabota (work); cf. Serb. obrađivati (process) => opraviti (repair) => pravda (justice),
Serb. pravo (law, right); cf. English prove/probation; Serb. oprobati; Lat. probatio (probe,
Serbian word broj (number) is derived from nabiranje (colect, gather; verb nabrati to colect');
hence branje (picking up, collecting); It looks as if English number comes out from the nasalized
Serbian nabiranje (naMbiranje => numbering).

The similar relation we have in case of the Semitic sifr (Hebrew saphar writer, collector; from the
primitive root SAFAR "to count"/ "scribe" (like in German zählen /count/ and erzählan /talk/) and
Serbian sabirati (colect, gather). Serbian NABRAJATI = numbering; NABRAJATI = talk angrily

Fettered Water

Wednesday, 28. November 2007, 11:56:40

AC EON NOS --- an expanse of land with water (ac) shore (eon) mind (nos), mind of the shore
land, personified shore, personified in Okeanos with the long winding body of a dragon (as on
an early Greek vase shown by Janda), then transformed into a myth of the origin, a giant dragon
lying around the inert primeval world, whereupon a hero appears and slices the dragen into an
upper and a lower half that become land and sea and set the universe in motion. If so, a-sayana
would have been an overforming of hypothetical AC EON NOS, or perhaps sort of a rime, a
beloved element of style in the Rigveda.

Franz Gnaedinger

Use your imagination: aqua; aqueanos, okeanos/ωκεανός; Serb. ukvašen; Ger. waschen; Serb.
okovan fettered (from kovanje /Eng. coining/; cf. hoof, Serb. kopito; Serb. uhvatiti (catch;
uhvaćen caught!), ukotviti anchor...

Can anyone understand the relation between German fassen, gefangen and ge-waschen on
one side and Serbian vezan (bound, tied), uhvaćen (cought) and ukvašen (wet, dampish, moist)
on the other?

Here we have to deal with the deepest philosophical content: fettered water!
Unfortunately, on this forum (sci.lang), no one seems to be able to cope with the most profound
wisdom hidden inside the words we are verbalizing in our everyday life.

What a pity indeed!

Slavic languages are precise in wording, completely transparent down to the roots and quite
understandable in their internal logic. Serbian 'okov' (fetter) is a compound word, oko + biti
(around + beat); 'Akov' has benn understood as a device made by 'fettering' (beat around;
hammering around); 'akov' was a kind of wooden barrel which planks had been "fettered",
encircled or bound together with some other material (liana or iron ring for instance).

There are many words originated from the basis OKO-BITI < GON-BEL-GON: ’kovati’ (hammer,
coin, weld, forge), ’kopati’ (dig),’okupiti’ (to bring together, assemble; in sense of the fettered
barrel’s planks; clear relation ’okovati’ > ’okupiti’), ’kupiti’ (pick up, assemble, buy, purchase;
when we pick the fruits we have to put it into a certain kind of vessel (okov, akov), ’kuvati’ (boil,
whirl), ’kovitlac’ (twirl, whirl, vortex). I hope, you are able to understand the relation between
boiling and whirling; whirling is the first thing you are going to see while pouring liquid into a
vessel, the same one which is present in the natural environment (whirlpool).

There is another Serbian word ’okupati’ (bathe, wash yourself) that directly indicates to the fact
that no one could bathe or wash himself if there was not "fettered water" (Serb. okovana voda);
i.e. you must pour water in some kind of artificial vessel or find the natural pool (basin; vessel
again). Obviously, the ancient man was as intelligent as the modern people of today and he
philosophically understood that water had to be fettered (Serb. okovana) for to be seen. Finely,
water is fettered everywhere, in rivers, lakes and seas. artificial vessels (basins) and the Greek
ωκεανός is nothing else but the FETTERED WATER (OKOVANA VODA)!

Melas Oros and Scarred Mountain

Tuesday, 27. November 2007, 18:45:37

(s)ker-4, (s)kerǝ-, (s)krē-
Illyr. TN Scordisci meant: “ men with shirts, kilts (like women)” hence Alb. (*skodra) kodra “hill”
actually meant: “(*short) low mountain, low hill” [common drop of initial s- in Alb. sk > k] Lith.

‘steiles bank, border, shore” (see above Illyr. Scordus

                                                                 , O.C.S. o-skrъdъ m. “tool zum
Behauen                                                                                         ,
Spitzhammer”;nasal. Lith. skrándas “alter Pelz”, skrañdis “Viehmagen”, Ltv. skrandas pl. “rag,
clout”, O.Pruss. scrundos pl. ‘scissors”. About sker-dh- see below esp. Schlagwort
Indo-European Language Association – Page 2708

What an amazing scientific approach!

G. Starostin and A. Lubotsky are claiming that Albanian kodër (hill; possible corrupt Latin condo
- dere /to build , found; form, establish/) came from a certain Albanian proto-word *skodra, but
here they have a serious problem to explain how it happened that Albanians are missing the hill-
linking-word because skodra has no meaning in Albanian. Albanian is having the word skuadër
(squad; from V. Lat. exquadrare; Italian squadra /battalion/), which is a clear-cut borrowing, and
no one can explain a supposed native word by introducing the trenchant loanword; Albanian
kodër seems to be one of the rare inherited Albanian words (of course, if not borrowed from
Latin condo -dere).

If we take in consideration the names of the cities Scutari (Serbian Skadar; Albanian Shkodar;
also Lake Scutari/ Greek Σκουτάρι; cf. Üsküdar suburb of Istanbul) and Kotor (Ita. Cattaro) we
will clearly see G. Starostin's "common drop of initial s", just this time not in so-called Shqip-
Illyrian but in Roman, Greek and Slavic. Kotor is the name related to the above-mentioned Latin
condo -dere as well as it is related to Serbian kotar (district, an enclosed, fenced area); cf.
Serbian zidar (builder, mason), zatvor (prison), zagrada (enclosure), zgrada (building, house),
grad (castle, city); finally, it becomes clear that all the above words are coming out of the
primeval word krug (circle; Lat. circus, Greek κίρκος/κρίκος; from Hor-Gon ur-basis (Serbo-
Slavic zagrada => zagrad => zgarad => zgrada ; cf. Skradin, a small town in Croatia, also known
in Latin as Scardona).
Now compare Skradin, Skardona, Skadar and Serbian words zgrada (building) and kotar
(enclosed area); obviously, Skadar is earlier Serbo-Slavic Skradar, za-gra-dar (zgrada, zagrada,
enclosed area, castle); the process of an omission of the sound 'r' from the word Skradar is
quite natural. Skradar or Zgradar was the basis for the later Serbian words as zidar (zgradar =>
zidar (mason; cf. Zadar, Lat. Iadera), one who builds the zgrada (building, house). In Serbian,
the verbs izgraditi (to build, construct) and skratiti (shorten) are logically interlaced and related
via other Serbian verbs as graditi (build), krojiti (tailor, cut; krojač tailor, sartor); also in this case,
as we can see, those verbs sprang from the ur-basis Hor-Gon or the noun KRUG (kruženje
/circling/, kretanje /moving/, okrug / district/, utvrda /fortress/).

On the other side, Šar Planina (Lat. Scardus, Scordus, Scodrus Mountain; here we can see the
process of metatheses) is a Mottled Mountain; from Serbian išarano (from is-harano; mottled,
specked; English scar; Lat. eschara), again from the Hor-Gon ur-basis (KRUG circle); it means
that Šar Planina or Scordus/Scodrus Mountain is a Speckled Mountain and cannot have the
meaning "mountain" in any of the IE languages, except in compiled Albanian, where the word
mal (m                                                                       " (by swapping the Greek
meaning 'black' (mela/s) for Albanian mountain (mal); cf. Serb. Crna Gora = Greek. Melas Oros
= Black Mountain; Molosser, Molossia; Albanian malësor mountaineer) and kodër (hill) was
probably borrowed from S-codrus; i.e. from šaren (mottled) planiana (mountain); Lat. Mons
Scodrus (scarred, eschara, išarana/šarena, Speckled or Scarred Mountain).

In addition, Šar Planina is called Mali i Sharrit in Albanian and, as far as I know, there are only
Albanian shar-words sharrë (saw, arm-saw), sharra (sawmill), shartesë (graft); all words
obviously derived from the PIE root *s/ker- (my Xur-Gon basis) hence English words scar, short,
scissors and shear originated (German scheren, Serbian skratiti shorten; škare scissors); cf.
Serb. sekira (axe <=> Serb. seći, sekao /cut/, Lat. seco secare /cut/; securis axe, hatchet; also
Lat. sartor /tailor/). There are also the Hor-Gon counterparts in Serbian: harčenje, krčenje
(wood-cutting; cf. English hack /from *hark; harras /Serb. haranje/). Also Lat. sarcio sarcire sarsi
sartum mend, patch; Serbian skrojiti tailor; sašiti tailor and zašiti mend, patch (from sur-gon; sur-
gnati => suknati (knead, knit) => sukno (linen, textile) => suknja (skirt); cf. Lat curto -are
(shorten) and Serbian kratiti (shorten).
That's enough! I hope someone among so many ingenious scholars on sci.lang will be able to
grasp the point: It does not matter if Scordisci were named either according their skirts (shirts,
shorts) or the mountain Scordus because their name is absolutely in harmony with the IE
vocabulary, what cannot be said for Albanian Mali i Sharrit (Serb. Šar-Planina; Lat. Mons
Scordus) and kodër (hill).

Unfortunately, G. Starostin and A. Lubotsky are enormously occupied with the Shkip-Soros-
Illyran SOLIDUS evidences to be able to see a wagging finger in front of their own eyes.

Nightly Anxiety

Sunday, 25. November 2007, 12:55:54

aghl(u)- (*heghel-)
English meaning: rainy weather Deutsche Übersetzung: etwa “dunkle Wolke, regnerisches
Material: Gk. αχλυς/achlus “ fog, darkness “ Maybe Alb. agull “bad vision” O.Pruss. aglo n. “rain”
(u- stem), Arm. *alj- in aɫjaɫj, aɫjamuɫjkh “darkness” (Meillet MSL. 10, 279). References: WP. I
41. compare Petersen Ar. and Arm. Stud. 126.
Page(s): 8
Indo-European Language Association –
Revised and crippled electronic edition of Pokorny's PIE dictionary

Even a complete amateur would have hardly made a similar blunder. Greek
ομιχλοειδης/omichlodes (misty, foggy) and αχλυωδης/achliodes (foggy. misty) shows clearly that
either a sort of assimilation (amh => ah) or an apheresis was present here
(ομιχλοειδης/omichlodes => αχλυωδης/achliodes => αχλυς/achlus). Cf. Serbian maglovito
(foggy) and Greek omichloeides (foggy).
Now we can see that Albanian 'aggul' appeared in the same way as Greek achlus; i.e. from
mjegull => agull; from Serb. magla (fog).
As for Prussian agla (heavy rain), we could compare it with Sudovian lit (rain) and Serbian ku-
ljati (gush; Serb. kuljati stemmed from the same old Gon-Bel basis as oblak /cloud/): Yes, all
these words are indirectlly connected via /gn/o-bal-gno(Serb. oblak cloud, oblachno cloudy; Ger.
Nebel; Lat. nebula, Serb. nebo sky), but not in such a stupid (rural-primitive) way as G. Starostin
and A.Lubotsky have imagined in their folk-etymological mind.

Prussian words 'ebmiglintun' (darkening; Serb, obmagliti) and 'migla' (blear), together with
English 'blackening' (changing to a darker color), when compared to Serbian 'oblachno'
(cloudy), are indicating the way in which the Serbian word 'magla' , Grek 'omihle', Lithuanian
'migla' have been derived from Gon-Bel-Gon "cloudy" basis.

English meaning: to fear
                                                                           : Gk. αχος n. “ fear, pain,
grief “, αχνυμαι, αχομαι “ grieving, sorrowing, mourning “(Aor. ηκαχε, ηκαχομην, perf. ακαχημαι),
αχευων, αχεων “ mourning, groaning “, ακαχιζω‘sadden”; here probably αχθος “ load, grief “ (*
αχτος), thereof αχθεσθαι “ to be loaded, be depressed “.Maybe nasalized Alb. (*aghos) ankth
“fear” [common Alb. -s > -th phonetic mutation]. O.E. ege m. “fear”, egisi-grima gl. “ ghost,
spectre, evil spirit “, n. es- stem *agiz = Gk. αχος “get a fright”;
                      - h- > -χ- phonetic mutation compare O.H.G. egis-līh “dreadful“, egisōn “ get
a fright “ and to o- and en stems extended Goth. agis n. “ fear, anxiety, fright “, O.H.G. agiso,
egiso m., egisa f. “ fear, fright figure “, O.E. egesa m. “ fear “; O.N. agi m. (-en- stem) “Fear”,
O.H.G. egī; M.H.G. ege f. “ fear, fright, punishment “; Goth. -agan in un-agands “ are not afraid “,
af-agjan “ frighten”, usagjan “frighten somebody “, “ in-agjan “ snub somebody “; preterit present
Goth. ōg (ōgum) “ fears me “, ni ōgs “ fear nothing “ (old short vocal subjunctive *ōgiz), O.N. ōa-
sk “ be afraid “; Goth. ōgjan “snub somebody“ = O.N. ægja “get a fright”; O.N. ōgn f. “ fright “,
ōtti m. “fear “, O.E. ōga f. “fright “.

These Soros-paid "scientists" (G. Starostin and A. Lubotsky) are enormously funny guys! They
say dumbly:"Maybe nasalized Alb. (*aghos) ankth “fear” [common Alb. -s > -th phonetic
mutation]" - not seeing at all that Albanian 'ankth' (fear) is a clear-cut borrowing from Latin nox
noctis (cf. Lat. anxius anxious; Serb. noćna mora = Eng. night-mare). In this case, the source of
all the Germanic words mentioned above was Ur-syllable GON (reduplicated, triplicated). Of
course, the famous lingua/dnghua researchers forgot to mention Slavic cognates 'užas' (fright),
'igla' (needle; Lat. acus) and 'jež' (hedgehog), 'ježiti se' (shudder, creep)

Nasalised Epenthesis

Sunday, 25. November 2007, 12:36:41

[... "in case of b/m alternation in Thracian, Illyrian and Albanian I think that we have to deal with
dialectal characteristic, that has nothing to do with anaptytic homorganic sound /b/." ..]

What is nasalization if not epenthesis? General rules for all IE languages are n=>m and b=>m
sound changes, are they not? On what grounds Abdullah is claiming that b=>m (bilabials)
change is not homorganic in so-called (confabulated) Illyrian (and therefore in modern
/compiled/ Albanian!!!).

Let me be more precise: the name of the river Tamish/Timish (Tibiscus, Tibisis) was first
nasalized (nasalization is one of the most expressive characteristics of the Slavic languages;
especially Serbian) as TiMBiscus, TiMBisis; similar happened to rivers Timok (TiMBok), Thames
(ThaMBse); friquent Serbian toponyms: Toplice, Dubica/ DuMNica/Dubnica;
Dubno/Duvno/DuMNo. I think, only a complete fool would not be able to comprehend that we
have to deal here with nothing else but the well known PIE root *deubh- ('deep, hollow'; my
Gon-Bel basis; Serbian dubok deep; dubina deepness; German Tiefe; Serbian topiti/po-
tapati/daviti soak, thaw, suffocate; cf. Serbian tup /dumb/; dembel /lazybones, idler/).

Below is an earlier explanation of the "origin" of an unusual Albanian cluster. What an
impertinence! Abdulah writes that DER is the Illyrain word derived from the ancient *wodó:r.
How? Simply, by apheresis!? What if I said the English 'chat' had been derived from the Serbian
'pri- chati' (talk)? I only need to find my "WITHAL", which would admit that my 'discovery' MIGHT

The truth is that the great number of Albanian words has been developed trough aphaeresis.
For instance, who would have ever thought that the Albanian MBLEDH has been derived from
the nasalized Italian gruppo (Serbian grupa group, krupan big)? You would be able to grasp
what really happened to the Albanian word MBLEDH if you looked at the other Albanian word –
GRUMBULLOJ with the same meaning as ‘mbledh’ (to group, assemble).

I mentioned the Albanian word mbresë (impression, scar) and I did expect that someone would
notice that this word was a cognate of the Latin ‘imprimo, imprimere, impressi’ (impress, Serbian
obrezati, porezati cut). The Latin ‘presso’ is equal to the Serbian ‘prezanje’ (preassure) and the
named nasalized form of the Serbian ‘obrez - oMbrez’ (circumcision, cut; Latin ‘abrasio’) seem
to be the basis for the development of the Latin ‘impressi’ as well as the Albanian ’mbresë’

There are other Albanian words that are derived directly from the Serbian as ‘mpreh’ (whet,
sharpen; Serbian ‘brusiti’) and ‘mbreh’ (harness, yoke, put by force; Serb. upregnuti, uprego
harness; nasalized Serb. uMprego => Alb. mbreh). Sometimes, the Albanian words are
deformed in such a way that no one is able to see where they are coming from. Who would ever
say that the Albanian ‘mbretëreshë’ (queen) was derived from the Italian ‘imperatrice’
(empress)? Albanian ‘shkrim’ means writing (shkrimtar writer), from Latin scribo (Serb. škrabati;
from ‘izgrebati’ scratch).

Utvrda - Utvrđeni Andetrion

Sunday, 25. November 2007, 11:38:29

Andetrion, Dalmatia (Strabo) Anausaro, road station (TP Miller IR col. 571-573. Rav. IV 15).
Andarva/Anderba, road station Miller IR col. 462-471. IA Cuntz 338, 7. Rav. IV 16) Andizetes,
Panonian tribe (Strab. VII 314. Ptol. II 15,2) Andautonion (Ptol. II, 14,4), city in Panonia.
Bulentum/Bolentum, if identical with Bulet close to Dubrovnik and if from Alb appellative bulim
'spring' (Jokl, Skok), I think that testifies for its high frequency in many place names with it
prefixed form: Ombula/Jambula, Ubla/Obla, Bul-ofçe/Bolec in Dardania etc. Forms
Ombula/Jambula are from prefixed form *H1en + bul- with characteristic assimilation -nb- > -mb-
, later reduced on -b-/-m-. From last example we could suppose that place names Andetrion,
Anausaro, Andizetes, Andarva, Andautonion are indeed prefixed forms of -detrion, -ausaro, -
dizetes, -darva, because H1en is treated in PAlb. as -ân in Gheg dialect and -ën in Tosk one.
So except aus- and ar- as a first element on many Illyrian place names, exists also as prefix an-
attested in many other place names. Because I haven't access to the Cybalist for ours, I am
forced to reply to Sciarreta Antonio that I am aware of the variant form Sanderua in the Tabula
Peutingeriana, but we must be aware also that exists Illyrian tribe name Dervanes (Appiani
Alexandrini, Historia Romana, Illyrica, paragraph 28), so An-darva/An-derba seems to back up
attested forms Andarva and Anderba as primary one.


In fact, Andetrion is "hanterion" (Gon_Hor-Gon basis); related to Skadar (Skender; Skodra);
Serbian surname Škundrić; Serb. zagrada (brace, fence, hedge, bracket; there are many
Serbian villages with the name Zagradje; hence Serb. zgrada building cf. Serb. kotar district); all
related to the Serbian noun 'udar' (from hundar; Serb. verb handriti/udarati beat, pound); Serb.
tvrđava, utvrđenje fortress; clearly from Serb. udar/h/anje => utrhenje => utrđenje => utvrđenje
(prosthetic "v").
As explained above: Andetrion is nothing else but a Serbo-Slavic ut/v/rdjnje; i.e. a nasalized
form uNt/v/rditi/ uNtvrdjenje "adjusted" for the Roman ear.
[...Anausaro, road station (TP Miller IR col. 571-573. Rav. IV 15)...]
Anausaro is a present Serbian village of Staro Nagoričane (Старо Нагоричане) near
Kumanovo (similar as above Andetrion; derived from Gon-Hor-Gon ur-basis (nagraditi, ograditi
fence, brace, nadgraditi; Serb. nadgradje superstructure
[...Andarva/Anderba, road station Miller IR col. 462-471. IA Cuntz 338, 7. Rav. IV 16) ...]
Again the same, but this time from Gon.Hor-Bel basis (Serbian tvrđava; from hundarba = utrdba
=> utvrdba (known in Serbian also as utvrda or tvrđava /fortress/); from the above analyses we
can see that Serbo- Slavic word drvo (tree) acqired its name from the name of the fence (Serb.
taraba /palisade/; related to tvrđava!)
Andizetes, Panonian tribe (Strab. VII 314. Ptol. II 15,2); Kandići, Antići; Anti (from Hanti); Lat.
anti- is equal to Serbian goniti (drive, chase, hunt) and English hunt (Serb. goniti neprijatelja
hunt the enemy); Serb. ganjati (hunt), gonič (hunter).

Albanians are SO-CALLED (as Ana Komnena referred to them) and they were brought to the
Balkan during the 11th century AD.

In a few short years time, any soul-seller-scientist in the world, who is now supporting the Shqip-
Illirian theory (like G. Starostin and A. Lubotsky), will be rediculed and declared "stupid" and

PIE and Sanskrit

Sunday, 25. November 2007, 10:45:50

PIE reconstruction is a kind of scientific imagery and it could be far of any real ancestor
language. I think that PIE never existed or, if it existed, it could be reduced to a couple of
"productive" (self- generating) words. In ancient times people constantly were splitting up into
groups, making newer and newer tribes inside relatively small and enclosed areas. Such "social
groups" tended not to communicate to the "outside world"; simply, they were completely
occupied, trying to figure out how to secure the life of their families (food supplies, finding an
appropriate shelter, keeping their living space warm etc.). In fact, prehistoric and ancient people
were as frightened from other human beings as they were afraid of wild animals or natural

I think that there were thousands of different languages (with a small number of speakers) only
in Europe, but they were "suppressed" and reduced to a much smaller number after the first
states (commonwealths) started to be created and an "official" (standard) language began to be
imposed to all the subjects of a new (significantly enlarged) "society".

As for Sanskrit, I am more than sure that none of the European languages descended from
Asia, but to the contrary, Sanskrit "corrupted" its "speech essence" under the heavy influence of
a certain Euro-speaking "conquering" tongue.

Albanian burrë (man)

Sunday, 11. November 2007, 21:42:44

On July 24. 2007. Abdullah Konushevci wrote:

My vie about Alb burrë is:
*wirH1-os. Alb. burrë 'ruler, warrior, husband, man; distinguished/
brave/courageous person' from *wH3r.H1-no with laryngeal hardening of
*w to *b, *-r.H1- > -ur- (cf. *gWr.H1-u > Alb gur, Watkins) and *-rn-
-rr as regular outcome, if we assume reduced o-grade form *woiH1- '
to pursue with vigor, desire' related to *wiH1-ro (cf. also Dacian
royal name Bure-bista and maybe tribe name Li-burnoi, cf. Alb li-
gjëroj 'to discourse, orate, cf. Latin ser-mo < *ser-) Dalmatian place
name Burnum): OIr fer 'man, husband', Lat vir 'man, husband', OE wer
'man, husband' (NE werewolf), Lith vyras 'man, husband': Av vi:ra-
'man; person', Skt vi:rá- 'hero; (eminent) man, husband'. Alb i ri:
'young' from *uriH1-os (*os > ) with long stressed /í:/ due to
laryngeal and proverbial aphaeresis of unstressed initial syllable;
trim 'dare-devil, berserker; brave, lion-hearted' from prefixed and
suffixed form t-ri-m: Toch A wir 'young, fresh' (Mallory-Adams wiHxros

1) Abdullah is trying to say that word Liburnoi was prefixed -; of course, prefixed by so-called
Sqipo-Illyrian lë-. Albanian lë means 'leave' and it is a reduced form of the Albanian word dalje
(outlet, exit, efflux). That Albanian word sounds the same as Serbian dalje, which means
'further', 'off' , 'onwards'. If Albanian dalje had no meaning 'efflux' we would not be able to say
with a complete certainty it was borrowed from Serbian. Thus, the meaning 'efflux' is telling us
the whole truth: Albanian dalje is the same word as Serbian dalje, because Serbiandalje comes
from the word odliti 'pour out', 'disgorge', where outflow of water was connected with any kind of
moving forward or moving away/ahead; hence Serbian udaljiti se 'leave' and daljina 'distance'

2) Albanian ligjëroj comes from Greek 'logos' 'word', lego 'speak', 'say'; Serbian iz-laganje
'speech': In addition, Albanian ligjëroj also means 'legalize' and this is a good enough evidence
that Abdullah is talking nonsense and that this word is borrrowed from Latin locutio speech and
legalis 'legal' (Italian legalizzare). Abdullah tried many times before to 'confirm' the "Illyrian'
"origin" of similar words by his invented li- Sqip-Illyrian prefix and seeing that nobody oposes it
he continued to sell the same crap constantly.

3) It is almost unbelievable that Abdullah, with his poor linguistic knowledge and his politically
oriented upside-down "linguistics", is able to fuck up a group of "well-educated" people on
Sci.lang. Such a "lavar el cerebro' would be "excusable" if Abdullah's intentions would not be so
self-evident - his task is to establish a new Sqip-Illyrian theory, no matter how much the cost will
be. For the time being, that Albanian "scientist" succeeded to mess up even the Pokorny's PIE
Dictionary (with the help of Lubotsky and G. Starostin - under Soros supervision), and no body
knows what kind of "scientific" Albo-Illyrian destruction is waiting us in the future.

4) We must be very careful when the name Liburnoi (Liburni) is in question. It could be from the
Old Irish labar 'talkative' or Scottish Gaelic labhrach talkative, loquacious; may be it has
something to do with the small village in France, called Lavardin on the river Loir; or with Greek
lavra 'a cluster of cells'; we must not forgot the Latin libertas that, beside 'freedom', means
'frankeness of speech' (Spanish palabra speech, word); what are we going to do vith Latin
labrum 'lip' and Serbian labrnja 'lip, muzzle' and the Serbian laprdati 'talk nonsense'; As we can
see all the above words are mutually related. On the other side, there are words as Latin libatus
(libo, libare, libavi) 'nibble', 'sip', 'libation' or Serbia livati 'pour in'; Greek ipoleivo (cf. Serbian
polivati effuse) and loiveion 'pour', 'libation'; Serbian river Lab; also there are the words like
Greek eleutheria which is obviously connected with the Latin libertas and Serbian s-loboda
'freedom' (in Serbian freedom is an association to water effusion - s-livati 'pour down', s-laviti
'celebrate'); of course, this is just a quick survey of the possible ways to the solution of the
Luburnian's name mistery. One thing is more than certain here: Liburni and Illyria were derived
from the same source - Greekelevthería or Latin libertas. I think Abdullah is happy to here this,
because the word for 'freedom' sounds in Albanian almost the same as the name of ancient
Illyria (Albanian liri freedom); Nevertheless, the truth is somewhere else, i.e. if we compared the
Greek word lirodos 'one who sings to the lyre' with Italian librettista author of words to be set to
music in an opera or operetta, poet (compare libretto and lyrics), songs about freedom, we
would be able to understand what was happening here.

5) Albanian burrë (man, husband) cannot come directly from Latin via "famous" Abdullah's
"laryngeal hardening" simply because the Latin word <vir> has been evolved from the earlier
word bello/bel(fight, wage war), bellator (warrior); the similar process is visible in Serbian: borac
(warrior) and borenje (fighting); borenje is reduced form of primal Bel-Hor-Gon basis ( bellare <=
bel-hre-hne => borenje); Serbian borac (fighter). If the Albanian burrë is IE word at all it must be
related to German Bauer or Serbian <paor> (freeman, peasant). Similar process where B => V
change is present in Serbian words like vrlina; vrli, vrlo (virtue, precious) with the close meaning
as Latin virilis; or Serbian vredan (worthy) equal to Latin virtus. However, Albanian burrë could
be borrowed from Latin puer (boy, young man, slave); Russian boyar (Old Russian boljar); cf.
Latin bellare and Russian boljar (a member of the nobility,warrior); also 'barin', 'baron' and
Frankish 'baro'.

Dušan Vukotić

Monday, 29. October 2007, 14:21:40

The new electronic Pokorny’s PIE dictionary, “revised” and crippled by G. Starostin and A.
Lubotsky, says that the root *bhegh- is changed to bhedh-2 through the “common Illyr. -gh- => -
dh- phonetic mutation”(; Page 339). On the other side, these “experts” are taking
for granted that the Albanian word bindem (comply, obey) is a clear-cut example of the
imagined “twelf-words-Illyrian” sound changes. It is hard to believe that these two “respected”
linguists have never heard for the Latin word oboedio (to obey, comply with; from ob + audio).
Albanian 'bind' is used usually in sense of "persuasion" or "obedience":
bind dikë (win over)
bind me diskutime (talk over)
bind në të kundërtën (out-argue)
bind të mos bëjë (dissuade from)
që bind (persuader)
që të bind (persuasive)
bindës (cogent, conclusive, convincing, decisive, forcible, persuasive, plausible)
bindje (amenability, assurance, assuredness, cogency, conformity, conviction, docility,
expostulation, obedience, persuasion, politics, suasion, submission)
bindem (answer, bend, comply, follow, make sure, obey)
bindem diçkaje (resign oneself)
nuk i bindem (disobey)
Of course, we can argue is Latin oboedio a prefixed word, constituted of the preposition ob- ([in
front of, before; in return for; because of) and the verb audio, -ire (to hear , listen), because
there is a Serbian word ubediti, (ubedio persuade; adjective ubedjen convinced; from be-gen <=
bel-gen, with the same velar to dental sound changes for which G.S. and A.L. are claiming to be
of [their fabricated] Illyrian origin).
Logically, if you are able to persuade (Serb ubediti) somone to do something that person will
OBEY your demand. Middle English obeien (obey) and Gothic baidjan (coerce; Greek πεθω
convince, persuade; Lat fido trust, rely) is very close to Serbian ubedjen (convinced), but also, it
is close to the OSlav бѣдити/bѣditi coerce, compel (Serb bediti, po-bediti win).
Do you know why verdhë means yellow (not green) in Albanian?
Why gjelbër is green - not yellow (gelb, gilvus)?
Why motër is sister - not mother?
Why njëzet (1x10) is twenty?
Why Comnena is talking about SO-CALLED Albanians?
What about the Greek Melas Oros (Black Mountain), Serbian Crna Gora
(Black Mountain) and Albanian Malësor (highlander)?
Gr MELAS-ORO(S) (black mountain) => Alb MALESOR (highlander)
Can you tell us why Albanian have taken the Greek word MELAS (μελας
black) to "make" their MOUNTAIN (mal)?

Can you imagine why Albanian re means 'cloud' and e re (i ri) has the meaning 'new'?
Use the IE logic SKY (CLOUD) = NEW (Serb nebo => novo; Gr νεφελη => νεφος => νεοφατος;
Ita nuvolo => novello).

Of course, anyone who is able to understand what I am talking about is welcome.
Who can solve the above riddle?

First, I suggest to you and all other interested on Albanian language to read "Uber das
Albanesische in seinen verwandtschaftlichen beziehunge" by Franz Bopp, Berlin 1855, where
the question of Albanian origin and its realtion to other IE languages was solved once forever,
so I have no time to deal with your stupidity and chauvinism. You claim that so-called Albanian
are not Albanians, but Dalmatian, for sure, are Serbians?! Really your lack of basic logic is
pitiful. As fare as I know we have discussed thoroughly Alb. zet 'twenty'. Again I am not guilty
that you are so stupid and you can't understand it. Alb rê 'cloud', as you can see has nasal
vowel /ê/ and Alb i/e re 'young' has oral vowel /e/, for they are derived from different roots. So,
learn the basic of linguistics and leave me alone, because I am sick with your constant stupidity
and illiteracy.

Oktober 15, 2007 sci.lang
According to your logic, shoqe (friend-s) and shoqëri (friendship) are derived from different
bases? As a well educated linguist (!) you should have known that vowels are the first to be
changed in order to aquire a different meaning of a word: for instance, Alb kuqërremë (red) and
s/ kuqem (blush). Sometimes such changes are not conditioned at all, like in Alb strehë, strehim
- both with the meaning 'eaves', 'shelter', strehoj 'provide shelter' - from Serbian streha 'eaves',
strana 'side'). There are a lot of ablaut and umlaut examples in Albanian as well as in any other
language: çuditëri (eccentricity), çuditem (wonder; loanword from Serbian čudo, čuditi wonder);
patë 'goose', pata 'geese'.
What would you say for the Albanian words pendesë 'penitence' and pendese 'penitential'? Are
they related or not? According to your "nasalized and vocalized" "wisdom", these words are
born from different roots?
What do you mean by saying that Bopp has solved (once for ever!) the question of the Albanian
origin? AFAIK, Bopp just has proven that Albanian is an Indo-Europen language. Of course, he
was right because Albanian is constituted of above 90% of lonewords from Romance (mostly),
Greek and Slavic. Bopp could not have concluded otherwise, because he had not bothered
himself with the rest of less than 10% of Non-Indo-European words in Albanian, which would
have proven that Albanian was not original but compiled IE language.

Comnenna strictly differentiates "SO-CALLED Albanians" and "NATIVES of Dalmatia sent by
Bodinus". In other words, she thinks that the Albanians are NOT NATIVE to Balkan and
suggests that Albanians is not their true name (today we know that real and native name of
Albanians is Shqipetars and that they were named Albanians by foreigners - Greeks and

The New Monthly Magazine By Thomas Campbell. Samuel Carter Hall. Edward Bulwer Lytton
Lytton. Theodore Edward Hook. Thomas Hood. William Harrison Ainsworth: [...Another
hypothesis holds that the Albanians derive their origin from Alba, in Italy, and that tey are the
descendants of a colony of tbe Pretorian gnards, dismissed from Rome, by the 'Emperor
Septimus Severus, for having been accessory to the assassination of Pertinax. Their dress, the
words coming from Latin roots which are to be found in their language, and a vague tradition
prevalent among themselves, support this idea.
Chalcocondyles thinks that the Albanians came from the other side of the Adriatic." The
Albanians - Henry Skene Journal of the Ethnological Society

Xur/bel/gon - The Human Speech Formula

Sunday, 28. October 2007, 17:15:28


I have been working for a long time on semantics and historic values of words, concerning
Serbian and its relationship to the other Indo-European languages. In the year 2004 I
“announced” the SUR (HOR)-BEL-GON + UM speech formula as a self-generating wellspring of
the Indo-European tongues. Two years later, in January 2006, I found out that the Russian
linguist and archeologist Nicholas Marr (Николай Яковлевич Марр; 1865 – 1934) had been
offering a similar “recipe” in the beginning of the last century and it sounded САЛ, БЕР, ЙОН,
РОШ (SAL-BER-ROSH-YON). Of course, “serious” scientist had immediately rejected Marr’s
“mono genetic” theory and subjected it to mockery and utter contempt in later times.
Unfortunately, I found just a few pages in Russian of this “irredeemable” Marr’s work, whereof I
was unable to see how he arrived at the above-mentioned speech-principle. However, I was
awe-struck seeing that someone had come to the similar conclusion much earlier than I did. I
think it would have been impossible for two researchers, separated in time and space, to come
to almost the same conclusion by chance - quite independently - especially in the field of lingua
More to the point, it could be argued that Marr’s long-disciplined observation and precise
scientific research and my basic paleo-syllables which I used as my “primary tool” brought us to
the same conclusion. If I’m correct, and I have all the reason to believe that I am, it would be a
crucial proof that the knowledge arrived at through intuitive research is as valid and important as
the most sophisticated scientific methodology.
Certainly, I am well aware that any theory, which diverges from the established “truth” in the
field of linguistic science, will be immediately (a priori) renounced as the worst kind of heresy.
Withal, the work of the great linguist as Marr probably was, had been ferociously rejected by the
scientific circles and labeled as а “mad theory” (Russ. безумная теория).
I was catapulted into the wellspring of human speech mystery firstly by the force of an
exuberant imagination and pure intuition followed by logical reasoning afterwards. In fact, I
thought that the first articulated word must be in a close relation with the “originator” of Earth-life
– the sun! Even today, night causes anxiety and fear and we can only imagine how it was
looked upon in ancient and prehistoric times. Undoubtedly, the prehistoric man must have
awaited the next appearance of the sun (morning, sunrise, dawn) as a new salvation from a
fearsome “night confinement”. If we accept the evolutionary theory of human speech
development as an undeniable fact, we must also assume that human speech must have
commenced from a certain point in time and space. It means, some energizing, articulated word
had to be the first one, as a self-generating wellspring of other morphemes and compound
words. I think, that “primeval” syllable had been first “enriched” by affixation and afterwards
subtraction, metathesis and agglutination stepped on the scene.
Today, three years later after I first “heralded” the above-mentioned (SUR (HOR)-BEL-GON +
UM speech formula, my “speaking well-generator” is shortened to the mere XUR-BEL-GON
speech-delivering “progenitor”. In short, a new and revised Xur-Bel-Gon is a speech formula
based on the three ancient sun divinities:
1) Sur (Surya /In Hinduism chief solar deity/, Zaria /Slavic goddess of beauty, Зоря; dawn/,
Svarga /Hindu and Slavic Heaven; Slavic sun god Svarog; Sargon - the king of Akkad; hence
the name of the sun; Serbian sunce, German Sohne);
2) Hor(u)s, Ra (Egyption/ Slavic sun deity) and
3) the ancient sun god Bel known in Asia, North of Africa as well as in Europe. I hope that my
respected reader has spotted that Horus and Surya sprang from the same ur-syllable - Xur! The
sound x in Xur might have been taken as a kind of a voiceless palatal-velar fricative. Sur and
Hor "rivalry" might be the reason of the so called Satem-Centum division among IE languages;
Gon is an independent agent(!); i.e. the force that makes the world components (material and
spiritual) to be locomotive.
Following the above way of thinking, I “rationally” concluded that the first spoken word must
ultimately be the name of one of the most ancient sun-deities. My mother language is Serbian
and I decided to examine its internal logic and semantic values of different “deified” syllables,
starting with the sun gods Sur (Sanskrit syR surya, Russ. Заря, Sirius), Bel (Bal, Bel Amon,
Belbel, Belial) and Hors (Horus, Osiris, Orion, Chris/t). Actually I anticipated that the “forgotten”
meaning of the noun Serb (Serbli) was zora bela (white dawn; belo - white, zora - dawn), a
compound word of two sun deities (Sur, Bel; Sur-Bel basis). Bel represents the sun god
(Akkadian bêlu, Greek Βελος, Latin Belus; the name of Bel had been applied to various gods in
Babylonian religion and his feminine form was Belit ‘Lady, Mistress’). I also realized that the
names of other Slavic people, like:
• Bulgars (Bel-Hor)
• Croates (Horgon)
• Russians (Hor-Gon)
• Ukrainians (Hor-Gon)
• Byelorussians (Bel-Hor-Gon)
• Poles (Bel-Gon)
• Slovenians (Sur-Bel-Gon), are closely related to the ancient sun deities.
The same case is with the people’s names in the western hemisphere:
• Germans (Hor-Gon basis)
• (H)Romans (Hor-Gon basis)
• Belgians (Bel-Gon)
• Franks (Bel-Hor-Gon; warriors)
• Greeks (Hor-Gon)
Norses (Gon-Hor basis)

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