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					   KOTP
   DESCRIPTION: ROGER JOSLYN INT
   TAPE #:
   SEPTEMBER 3, 2011
   TRANSCRIBED BY: RYAN HURST


                 ROGER JOSLYN INTERVIEW

PERSON     TAPE        TIMECODE       DESCRIPTION
              INT 1     01:01:05:02   MY NAME IS ROGER JOSLYN. I’M A CERTIFIED
                                      GENEOLOGIST. FULL TIME FOR 32 YEARS. HAVE
                                      DEALT IN ALL KINDS OF ASPECTS OF GENEOLOGY
                                      BUT IT’S PRIMARILY RESEARCH AND MAKING
                                      REPORTS. I’VE DONE A FAIR AMOUNT OF
                                      LECTURING ON THE SUBJECT, TEACHING ON THE
                                      SUBJECT, WRITTEN EXTENSIVELY IN THE
                                      SCHOLARLY JOURNALS AND BOOKS AND IN OTHER
                                      VENUES. THERE’S ALL KINDS OF APPLICATIONS
                                      BUT IT HAS INCLUDED, NOT EXTENSIVELY, BUT
                                      THERE WAS A TIME IN MY LIFE WHEN IT WAS
                                      FAIRLY INTENSE THAT I WAS ASSISTING IN
                                      RESEARCH THAT DEALT WITH GROUPS THAT WERE
                                      PETITIONING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FOR
                                      RECOGNITION AS INDIAN TRIBES. THIS INCLUDED
                                      THE RAMAPO MOUNTAIN INDIAN TRIBE IN NEW
                                      JERSEY AND NEW YORK. SOMETIME AGO, ALMOST
                                      FEELS LIKE IT COULD BE OUT OF MY MEMORY, BUT
                                      I WOULD SAY ITS BEEN ABOUT 20 YEARS NOW.
HIS INTRO TO   INT 1   01:02:12:14    WELL, 20 YEARS SINCE I WORKED ON THE RAMAPO.
THE CASE                              I SUBSEQUENTLY WORKED WITH OTHER INDIAN
                                      GROUPS. WHEN DID I GET INTO GENEOLOGY? 1978.
                                      FULL TIME. I WAS BROUGHT INTO THE RAMAPO
                                      GROUP BY A TELEPHONE CALL FROM A LAW
                                      FIRM IN WASHINGTON, DC THAT WAS SEEKING A
                                      CERTIFIED GENEOLOGIST. THEY SPECIFICALLY
                                      MENTIONED CERTIFICATION. I COULD TELL YOU
                                      MORE ABOUT THAT IF THAT’S PERTINENT AS TO
                                      WHAT THAT ACTUALLY MEANS. IT’S NOT A
                                      LICENSURE SUCH AS YOU MIGHT FIND FOR A
                                      DOCTOR OR DENTIST OR VET OR EVEN A
                                      CHIROPRACTOR, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. BUT IT IS
                                      A NATIONAL, ESSENTIALLY NATIONAL, U.S. BASED
                                      TESTING PROGRAM TO SHOW THAT YOU MEET
                                      CERTAIN CRITERIA AND EXPERIENCE AND
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                                              UNDERSTANDING OF GENEOLOGICAL RESEARCH
                                              AND REPORTING, ARGUING FROM PIECES OF
                                              EVIDENCE, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN AND SO FORTH.
                                              I BECAME CERTIFIED IN 1982 I BELIEVE IT WAS. SO
                                              NOT TOO LONG AFTER I GOT INTO THIS FULL TIME.
                                              I THINK WHAT I WAS TOLD BY THE PERSON WHO
                                              CALLED ME WAS THAT THEY SPECIFICALLY KNEW
                                              THEY WANTED A CERTIFIED GENEOLOGIST. I WAS
                                              INTERESTED FROM THE LITTLE BIT OF
                                              INFORMATION THAT WAS GIVEN TO ME IN TERMS
                                              OF WHAT THIS WAS ABOUT. IT WAS STILL PRETTY
                                              VAGUE. BUT I THINK IT WAS TOLD TO ME THAT I
                                              NEEDED TO DO SOME, OR THEY WERE LOOKING
                                              FOR SOMEONE TO DO SOME GENEOLOGICAL
                                              WORK ON AN INDIAN TRIBE. SO THEY FLEW ME
                                              DOWN TO WASHINGTON, DC. I WAS LIVING IN
                                              NEW JERSEY AT THE TIME. THE LOWER HUDSON
                                              VALLEY. FLEW ME DOWN TO WASHINGTON, DC
                                              FOR AN INTERVIEW. BASICALLY JUST KIND OF
                                              WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT MY EXPERIENCE AND
                                              GIVE ME SOME IDEA THIS MIGHT BE SOMETHING
                                              YOU’D BE DOING FOR A FEW MONTHS. THAT
                                              TURNED OUT NOT TO BE TRUE, BUT MAYBE NO
                                              ONE REALLY KNEW. MAYBE SOME IDEA OF
                                              WHAT I MIGHT BE PAID AND SOME OF THE
                                              OTHER PLAYERS THAT WERE INVOLVED, AT
                                              LEAST AT THE LAW FIRM AND SOMETHING, A
                                              LITTLE HISTORY OF THE TRIBE. SO THEY SENT
                                              ME BACK, I WENT BACK, COULD BE ABOUT A
                                              WEEK OR 2 LATER I GOT A CALL AND IT SAID,
                                              ‘YOU’VE GOT THE JOB IF YOU WANT IT.’ I DON’T
                                              KNOW IF I WAS TOLD IF ANYONE ELSE WAS BEING
                                              INTERVIEWED BUT THERE WAS SOME IMPLICATION
                                              THERE MIGHT BE. THEN IT WAS JUST A MATTER OF
                                              DIGGING IN FROM WHAT INFORMATION THEY
                                              PROVIDED ME AND I MADE SEVERAL TRIPS OVER
                                              THE NEXT COUPLE YEARS TO WASHINGTON TO
                                              MEET WITH THE ATTORNEYS, MEET WITH OTHER
                                              PLAYERS THAT THEY BROUGHT IN THAT WERE
                                              INVOLVED IN THE PROCESS AND SO FORTH.
MORE OF HIS          INT 1      01:05:16:09   IT’S REALLY HARD TO REMEMBER EXACTLY
INTRO TO THE                                  WHAT IT WAS THAT THEY TOLD ME I WAS TO
RAMAPOUGH                                     DO, WHAT THEY WANTED ME TO DO, HOW MUCH
                                              THERE WAS THAT WAS SCRIPTED IN TERMS OF
                                              YOU MUST DO THIS, OR YOU MUST DO THIS IN A
                                              CERTAIN WAY. BUT I THINK I ALSO HAD SOME



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                              09/03/2011
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                                FREEDOM WITH REGARD TO HOW I MIGHT GO
                                ABOUT IT. I THINK THE ESSENTIAL CENTRAL
                                MESSAGE OR DIRECTIVE OR GOAL WAS TO TAKE
                                THE INFORMATION THAT I WAS GIVEN AND
                                EXPAND IT ON THE INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS OF
                                THE GROUP AT THE TIME AND DOCUMENT THEIR
                                KINSHIP WITH EACHOTHER AND ALSO TO TRACE
                                THEIR ANCESTORY BACK IN TIME WITH THE
                                IDEA THAT IT WOULD LEAD TO DEFINITELY
                                DOCUMENTABLE CONNECTION WITH SPECIFIC
                                INDIAN PEOPLE, A SPECIFIC INDIAN
                                RECOGNIZED GROUP. THIS WAS ALL NEW TO ME
                                IN TERMS OF WHAT THE FEDERAL
                                ACKNOWLEGMENT PROCESS WAS. THIS WAS ALL
                                NEW. BUT ESSENTIALLY THE BASIC
                                GENEOLOGICAL RESEARCH INVOLVED WAS
                                STILL THE SAME AS EVERYTHING ELSE I HAD
                                DONE WITH THE EXCEPTION THAT THIS HAD A
                                DIFFERENT GOAL THAN I WAS USED TO AND
                                WITH ANOTHER POSSIBLE EXCEPTION THAT
                                YOU COULD SAY, WELL, IT GOT INTO SOME
                                RECORDS THAT I WOULDN’T NORMALLY BE
                                LOOKING AT. BUT I WAS ESSENTIALLY LOOKING
                                AT THE SAME KINDS OF RECORDS THAT I WOULD
                                DO IF SOMEONE SAID, ‘WELL, I WANT TO TRACE
                                BACK TO THE MAYFLOWER’ OR ‘I’M GOING TO
                                FIND OUT WHO MY GREAT-GREAT-
                                GRANDFATHER WAS’ OR ‘I HAD THIS SWORD
                                THAT CAME DOWN IN MY FAMILY I WANT TO
                                PUT SOME HISTORY TO IT.’ ALL KINDS OF
                                DIFFERENT APPLICATIONS. SO I ENDED UP
                                LOOKING AT THE USUAL TYPES OF RECORDS
                                THAT WOULD BE DONE IN A GENEOLOGICAL
                                SEARCH WHETHER IT’S JUST TO TRACE AN
                                ANCESTORAL LINE FROM AN INDIVIDUAL OR
                                WHETHER IT’S TO TIE A WHOLE GROUP
                                TOGETHER. THIS TURNED OUT TO BE
                                FASCINATING IN THE SENSE - AND HELPFUL - IN
                                THE SENSE THAT THIS REALLY WAS SO MUCH OF
                                A GROUP THAT WITH SOME EXCEPTION WAS
                                CONFINED TO A DEFINED AREA THAT, AS YOU
                                PROBABLY KNOW, IS IN THE HILLS THERE NEAR
                                WHAT’S NOW MAWAH?, NEW JERSEY, NEAR
                                WHAT’S KIND OF COMING INTO – WELL IT’S THE
                                TOWN OF RAMAPO, BUT INTO THE SUFFREN
                                AREA, WHICH PEOPLE WOULD KNOW FROM THE



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                             09/03/2011
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                                              HIGHWAY, THE THRU-WAY. AND THEN OVER
                                              INTO ANOTHER, ACTUALLY SORT OF 3 MAJOR
                                              SETTLEMENTS, AS I FOUND OUT. AND THIS WAS
                                              ALL DOCUMENTABLE THROUGH CERTAIN
                                              SOURCES, PARTICULARLY THE FEDERAL
                                              CENSUS, AS WELL AS THE STATE CENSUSES
                                              BECAUSE BOTH NJ AND NY TOOK STATE
                                              CENSUSES BETWEEN THE FEDERAL CENSUS
                                              WHICH IS EVERY TEN YEARS. THIS WAS NICE
                                              NOT ONLY FOR FINDING RECORD OF
                                              INDIVIDUALS BUT ALSO DOCUMENTING
                                              FAMILIES TOGETHER AND ALSO
                                              NEIGHBORHOODS BECAUSE YOU CAN EASILY
                                              SEE WHO’S WITHIN A CERTAIN AREA. THIS WAS
                                              IMPORTANT AS I FOUND OUT NOT ONLY JUST
                                              FOR THE GENEOLOGICAL LINKS BUT ALSO TO
                                              DEFINE SORT OF THE CORE NEIGHBORHOOD
                                              AND SETTLEMENT AREA WHERE THESE PEOPLE
                                              WHO WERE SEEKING RECOGNITION LIVED.
HIS PROCESS          INT 1      01:08:33:13   I ALSO LOOKED WITHIN CERTAIN LIMITATIONS
                                              AT BIRTH, DEATH AND MARRIAGE RECORDS.
                                              THE LIMITATIONS WERE NUMBER 1, PRIVACY.
                                              GETTING ACCESS TO SOME OF THESE FROM THE
                                              GOVERNMENT IN MORE RECENT TIMES AND
                                              ALSO THE COST PROHIBITION. IF I’D HAD A
                                              MUCH HIGHER BUDGET I PROBABLY WOULD
                                              HAVE GOTTEN MORE OF THAT BECAUSE THAT
                                              WAS IMPORTANT. THEN THERE WERE A NUMBER
                                              OF OTHER TYPES OF RECORDS THAT WERE ALSO
                                              USED THAT DIDN’T COME INTO PLAY QUITE AS
                                              STRONGLY BECAUSE THESE PEOPLE, BEING
                                              SOMEWHAT ISOLATED, EITHER BY CHOICE OR
                                              BY THE FORCES OF OTHER BEINGS, PEOPLE AND
                                              JUST THE AREA IN WHICH THEY LIVED, THERE
                                              WASN’T A LOT OF WHAT WE WOULD CALL
                                              CHURCH RECORDS AVAILABLE. THERE WERE
                                              SOME. AND SOME OF THE PEOPLE CAME AND IT
                                              WAS DETERMINED THAT THEY CAME AND WENT.
                                              YOU COULD SEE THAT IN THE RECORDS, WHICH
                                              WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO TALK TO THEM OR FIND
                                              SOME OTHER EVIDENCE WAS SOMETIMES BECAUSE
                                              MAYBE IT WAS TOO EXPENSIVE TO LIVE IN THIS
                                              PLACE OR THEY NEEDED TO FIND WORK. YOU’D
                                              SEE MEMBERS OF SOME FAMILIES SUDDENLY OFF
                                              A FEW MORE TOWNS AWAY. THEY MIGHT SHOW UP
                                              IN THE NEXT RECORD, THE NEXT CENSUS THEY’RE



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                           09/03/2011
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                                              BACK HOME AGAIN OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
                                              THERE WAS A VERY LIMITED AMOUT OF WHAT
                                              WE CALL CEMETARY RECORDS WHICH ARE
                                              USUALLY THE INSCRIPTIONS ON GRAVE
                                              MARKERS. THESE PEOPLE I’M SURE HAD VERY
                                              LITTLE BURIALS THAT WOULD BE
                                              MEMORIALIZED WITH WHAT WE CALL GRAVE
                                              STONES, GRAVE MARKERS, THINGS LIKE THAT.
LAND                 INT 1      01:10:10:07   THERE WAS A LITTLE BIT OF LAND OWNERSHIP
OWNERSHIP                                     WHICH HELPED PLACE THE PEOPLE THERE AND
                                              SHOWED SOME TIES TO THE AREA BECAUSE I
                                              THINK THE HISTORY SHOWS PRETTY MUCH WHAT
                                              CAN BE DEDUCED FROM THE RECORDS OF
                                              HISTORY. THESE PEOPLE WERE ESSENTIALLY JUST
                                              PLOPPING THEMSELVES DOWN IN THIS AREA.
                                              WITHOUT ANY REAL TIES THAT WOULD SHOW
                                              THEM UP ON TAX ROLLS OR ON REAL PROPERTY
                                              AND SO FORTH. BUT THERE WAS SOME OF THAT.
                                              AND THAT HELPED A LITTLE BIT TO SOLIDIFY THE
                                              DEFINITION OF THE AREA IN WHICH THESE PEOPLE
                                              LIVED, WAS BEING STUDIED.
VINELAND             INT 1      01:10:52:23   THERE WAS A VERY INTERESTING PIECE OF
TRAINING                                      EVIDENCE DOCUMENTATION THAT I WAS GIVEN
SCHOOL                                        BY THE LAW FIRM THAT HAS KIND OF A
                                              QUESTIONABLE HISTORY IN TERMS OF WHAT
                                              IT’S GOAL WAS AT THE TIME. AROUND THE TURN
                                              OF THE CENTURY STARTING BACK IN THE LATE
                                              19TH CENTURY, THERE WAS A GREAT STRONG
                                              MOVEMENT IN EUGENICS. AT THE TIME THE
                                              PEOPLE, THE BIG PLAYERS WHO HAD GOTTEN
                                              INVOLVED WITH THAT, NOT ONLY HERE BUT IN
                                              EUROPE, DIDN’T KNOW WHAT THEY WERE DOING.
                                              THEY WERE LOOKING AT EVERYTHING TRYING
                                              TO FIND SOME CONNECTION BETWEEN PEOPLE
                                              THROUGH THEIR GENETIC LINKS. SO IF YOU
                                              HAVE TWO OR THREE PEOPLE IN YOUR
                                              BACKGROUND WHO WERE MUSICAL, DID THAT
                                              CARRY THROUGH? JUST TO GIVE YOU ONE
                                              EXAMPLE. THERE WAS SOMETHING OUT OF
                                              VINELAND, NEW JERSEY AND I THINK IT WAS
                                              FROM A PLACE CALLED THE VINELAND
                                              TRAINING SCHOOL. A STUDY WAS DONE AND I
                                              DON’T REMEMBER HOW MANY PEOPLE… I’VE LOST
                                              THE HISTORY IN MY MEMORY.
MORE                 INT 2      01:12:03:03   FOR SOMEBODY COMING OUT OF THIS
VINELAND                                      VINELAND TRAINING SCHOOL… WAS A STUDY


   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                            09/03/2011
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                                THAT WAS DONE… AT LEAST 2 OR SO PEOPLE. I
                                KNOW THERE WAS A MAN AND A WOMAN AT
                                LEAST WHO’S BACKGROUND I DON’T RECALL IN
                                THIS PARTICULAR FIELD BUT THEY CAME INTO
                                THE RAMAPO MOUNTAIN AREA. THEY MUST
                                HAVE GOTTEN WIND THAT THERE WAS
                                SOMETHING INTERESTING UP THERE. THEY
                                WROTE THIS STUDY. WE CALL IT THE VINELAND
                                STUDY; I DON’T KNOW IF IT ACTUALLY HAD A
                                SPECIFIC TITLE OR HOW WIDELY IT WAS
                                AVAILABLE. AND SORT OF LIKE SOME OF THE
                                TERMS HAVE BEEN USED FOR THE RAMAPO
                                MOUTAIN PEOPLE THAT ARE CONSIDERED
                                THINGS THAT YOU SHOULDN’T CALL THEM
                                THAT. THE VINELAND STUDY IN THE SAME SENSE
                                HAS SORT OF A NEGATIVE CONNOTATION.
                                THAT’S BECAUSE THESE PEOPLE WERE
                                FOCUSING ON WHAT THEY THOUGHT WAS VERY
                                DIFFERENT, VERY BIZARRE, VERY STRANGE
                                WITH A SELECT NUMBER OF THE PEOPLE WHO
                                WERE UP THERE. YOU HAVE TO CONSIDER THAT
                                THESE PEOPLE WERE LIVING IN THE WOODS, IN
                                THE MOUNTAINS WITH VERY LITTLE CONTACT
                                EXCEPT AMONG EACH OTHER. NATURALLY
                                THEY WOULDN’T HAVE A GREAT EDUCATION,
                                THEY WOULDN’T BE ABLE TO SPEAK FLUENTLY,
                                THEY WOULDN’T NECESSARILY HAVE GREAT
                                HYGIENE, ET CETERA. THERE WAS A LOT OF
                                FOCUS ON HOW DIFFERENT THESE PEOPLE
                                WERE FROM YOUR MAINSTREAM
                                NEIGHBORHOOD. EVEN THOSE THAT MIGHT
                                HAVE SOME DEFORMITIES, AN EXTRA FINGER,
                                AN EXTRA TOE, I THINK THERE WERE A COUPLE
                                – I FORGET THE WHAT THE TERM IS FOR THAT –
                                IF THEY HAD STRANGE FORMATIONS OF THEIR
                                HEADS. AND CERTAINLY THE LACK OF
                                EDUCATION. SOME INTEREST IN WHAT THEY
                                USED FOR THEIR COOKING AND THINGS LIKE
                                THAT. A LOT OF THAT. VERY FASCINATING. AND
                                YET, I CAN UNDERSTAND HOW THE PEOPLE
                                THEMSELVES, ESPECIALLY TODAY, THINK ‘OH
                                THIS IS VERY UPSETTING. IT IMPLIES THAT
                                WE’RE ALL OF THIS ILK. TO ME, FOR MY
                                GENEOLOGICAL STUDY IT WAS FASCINATING
                                AND VERY HELPFUL BECAUSE HERE’S SOMEONE
                                WHO HAD COME IN SORT OF WITH THE INTENT



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                             09/03/2011
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                                              OF DOCUMENTING THESE PEOPLE BUT NOT
                                              NECESSARY GENEOLOGICALLY BUT THAT WAS
                                              DONE. IT SORT OF HAS THIS GOOD SIDE AND BAD
                                              SIDE BECAUSE WHILE THERE’S THIS NARRATIVE
                                              IN THIS STUDY THAT I WAS GIVEN, AND IT TALKS
                                              ABOUT SPECIFIC PEOPLE AND IDENTIFIES THEM
                                              SOMETIMES BY AGE, CERTAINLY PHYSICAL
                                              DESCRIPTION, MAYBE A LITTLE BIT OF
                                              GEOGRAPHIC PROXIMITY, WHERE THEY LIVE.
                                              ALSO, THIS IS THE SON OF… OR HE’S THE
                                              BROTHER IN LAW OF… AND SO ON. SO, IT
                                              PROVIDED SOME GENEOLOGICAL LINKS THAT
                                              MIGHT NOT EASILY BE DEDUCED FROM OTHER
                                              TYPES OF RECORDS. A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE
                                              HAD DIFFERENT TYPES OF NAMES. WHAT WE
                                              MIGHT CALL NICKNAMES OR IDENTIFIERS IN
                                              THAT SENSE. WHEN I WAS LOOKING AT OTHER
                                              RECORDS THIS HELPED ME PIECE SOME OF
                                              THAT TOGETHER.
MORE                 INT 2      01:15:08:04   THE DOWN SIDE OF IT WAS THAT THE STUDY
VINELAND –                                    REFERS TO A GENEOLICAL CHART, AND THIS
THE MISSING                                   BECAME A BIG MYSTERY. WHERE IS THIS
CHART                                         CHART? THAT WAS DONE I GUESS TO SHOW HOW
                                              ALL THESE PEOPLE FIT TOGETHER AND MAYBE
                                              BEYOND THOSE THAT WERE SPECIFICALLY
                                              MENTIONED IN THIS STUDY. THE LAW FIRM
                                              THAT HAD HIRED ME OVER TIME WAS – SOME OF
                                              THE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THIS DIRECTING ME
                                              WERE OBSESSED, ‘WE HAVE TO FIND THIS
                                              CHART. IT MAY BE A SMOKING GUN. IT MAY
                                              REALLY PUT SOME FOCUS ON SOME THINGS
                                              THAT WE COULDN’T DISCERN, WORK OUT FROM
                                              OTHER TYPES OF RECORDS THAT WERE
                                              IMPORTANT FOR THE FEDERAL RECOGNITION
                                              PROCESS.’ AND WE WOULD GET – THEY HAD
                                              DONE SOME RESEARCH, I DID SOME RESEARCH,
                                              WE’D GET LITTLE HINTS. WHERE IS THIS YOU
                                              KNOW? WELL IT WAS IN AN ATTIC IN THE
                                              VINELAND SCHOOL, THEY TORE DOWN THAT
                                              BUILDING, SO WHERE DID IT GO? WE NEVER
                                              FOUND IT. I THINK DAVID COEN REFERS TO IT IN
                                              HIS BOOK TOO BECAUSE HE WAS AWARE AS I
                                              RECALL THE VINELAND STUDY. HE CLAIMS I
                                              BELIEVE THAT HE HAD SEEN IT. BUT I WAS
                                              NEVER ABLE TO - WHEN WE DID SPEAK TO HIM,
                                              FIND OUT IF HE KNEW WHERE IT WAS. THERE



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                            09/03/2011
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                                              WAS ALWAYS THIS KIND OF MYSTERY ABOUT
                                              THIS CHART. I WOULD LOVE IT TO TURN UP
                                              TODAY OR EVENTUALLY IN THE FUTURE AND
                                              SEE HOW IT WAS DONE, SEE WHAT IT SHOWS.
                                              ANYHOW, THAT DIDN’T WORK OUT.
HIS                  INT 2      01:16:35:17   THERE WERE I’M SURE OTHER RECORDS THAT ARE
GENEOLOGICA                                   FORGOTTEN. I DID A LOT OF INTERVIEWING
L WORK AND                                    AMONG SOME OF THE KEY PEOPLE WHO KNEW A
CHARTS HE                                     LOT OF THE RELATIONSHIPS WITHIN THE TRIBE.
CREATED                                       THAT WAS IMPORTANT FOR PULLING ALL OF THIS
                                              TOGETHER BECAUSE AS I UNDERSTOOD IT I
                                              REALLY NEEDED TO LINK EVERYBODY PROPERLY
                                              WITH PROPER DOCUMENTAION WHO WAS A
                                              MEMBER OF THE TRIBE. AS IT TURNED OUT THERE
                                              WERE HUNDREDS, AT LEAST HUNDREDS OF OTHER
                                              PEOPLE THAT I COULD DOCUMENT, I COULD
                                              TRACE, WHO WEREN’T ON THE ROLLS AT THAT
                                              TIME. AND MAYBE NEVER WOULD BE OR DIDN’T
                                              WANT TO BE OR WHATEVER OR THESE LINES DIED
                                              OUT. MAYBE THEY DISAPPEARED; MAYBE THEY
                                              WENT TO CALIFORNIA, I DON’T KNOW. I KEPT
                                              TRACK OF ALL THESE PEOPLE BECAUSE IT WAS
                                              IMPORTANT SOMETIMES BECAUSE THEY MIGHT
                                              PROVIDE KEY LINKS TO UNDERSTANDING SOME OF
                                              THE TIES THAT OTHER PEOPLE HAD THAT WERE
                                              MORE CORE TO THE PETITIONING GROUP.
                                              PROBABLY ON THE MATERIAL THAT I PREPARED
                                              ANN TURNED IN WHICH INCLUDED WHAT I CALL
                                              DROP LINE CHARTS, WHICH ARE THESE
                                              GENEOLOGICAL CHARTS, MUCH LIKE MOST PEOPLE
                                              THINK OF WHEN THEY SEE HOW THE KINGS AND
                                              QUEENS OF ENGLAND ARE RELATED. THEY SEE
                                              THESE CHARTS IN BOOKS. IT’S VERY SIMILAR. IT
                                              TURNED OUT THAT THESE HAD A LOT MORE
                                              PEOPLE ON THEM THAT PROBABLY ACTUALLY
                                              NEEDED TO BE THERE EXCEPT FOR THE FACT OF
                                              HOW THEY HELD SOME OF THIS TOGETHER. LINDA
                                              POWELL, WHO WAS THE TRIBAL SECRETARY AT
                                              THE TIME, WAS EXTREMELY HELPFUL TO ME. WE
                                              ESTABLISHED A VERY GOOD RELATIONSHIP. I
                                              WOULD GO DOWN AND SPEND SEVERAL HOURS
                                              SOMETIMES 2 OR 3 DAYS A WEEK OR A COUPLE
                                              TIMES A MONTH DEPENDING AS THIS WENT ON
                                              AND ON. WE WOULD GO OVER THE CHARTS AND
                                              SHE WOULD HELP ME GET INFORMATION FROM
                                              THEIR RECORDS THAT THEY HAD IN THE TRIBAL



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                            09/03/2011
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                                OFFICE. SHE WOULD CALL HER MOTHER, SHE’D
                                CALL HER COUSINS, AND SHE’D CALL SOMEONE
                                THAT SHE KNEW SOMETHING ABOUT THAT
                                BRANCH. ‘LET’S TAKE CARE OF HER RIGHT THEN
                                AND THERE’ AND WE’D GET THE INFORMATION
                                AND I COULD GO OFF AND RUNNING WITH THAT
                                INFORMATION. ULTIMATELY, THERE WAS A
                                DEADLINE OR SOMETHING, AND AFTER MEETING
                                WITH THE ATTORNEYS AND VARIOUS OTHER
                                PEOPLE OVER ABOUT TWO YEARS. THEN PUSH
                                CAME TO SHOVE AND HAD TO WRITE MY PART
                                OF THE PETITION WHICH WAS… NOT SO MUCH
                                DICTATED, BUT I THINK THERE WAS SOME
                                STYLE OR FORMAT THAT THEY WANTED ME TO
                                FOLLOW. IT’S ALL STILL A LITTLE VAGUE.
                                THERE WASN’T A LOT TO WRITE ABOUT
                                BECAUSE ESSENTIALLY RATHER THAN GO
                                THROUGH EACH PERSON’S LINK AND SAY, ‘JOE
                                IS RELATED TO MABEL WHO’S RELATED TO
                                FRANK WHO’S RELATED TO LUCY’ OR
                                SOMETHING, OVER TIME JUST REALLY WASN’T
                                NECESSARY. IT WAS TO FOCUS ON THE KEY
                                FAMILIES WHAT THEIR LINKS WERE, WHAT
                                WERE THE CONNECTIONS IN THE RECORDS
                                THAT DESCRIBED THEM AS INDIAN. AND THAT IS
                                A WHOLE OTHER CAN OF WORMS, WHICH
                                THROUGH MY LATER EXPERIENCE WITH INDIAN
                                GROUPS, COULD BE AND HAS BEEN PROBLEMATIC.
                                AT LEAST TO JOHN Q. PUBLIC. BECAUSE THE
                                RAMAPO AND A LOT OF THE OTHER NEW
                                ENGLAND TRIBES WERE NOT SO MUCH
IDIANS DON’T                    ASCRIBED TO OR TIED IN WITH RESERVATIONS.
SHOW UP ON                      IT’S THE SUCH AND SUCH INDIAN RESERVATION.
RECORDS                         THESE PEOPLE WOULD BE RECORDED IN
                                VARIOUS RECORDS AS SOMEONE MIGHT SEE
                                THEM, NOT SELF REPORTED NECESSARILY. SO
                                WE WOULD SEE IN CENSUSES THAT THESE
                                PEOPLE WERE LISTED AS MULLATO OR PERSONS
                                OF COLOR OR EVEN THE WORD MIXED MIGHT
                                BE IN THERE. I REMEMBER A COLLEAGUE OF
                                MINE AND I LOOKED AT THE 1870 FEDERAL
                                CENSUS FOR THE SHINNECOCK RESERVATION
                                OUT ON LONG ISLAND AND EXCEPT FOR A
                                COUPLE OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD COME INTO
                                THE RESERVATION FROM VIRGINIA THAT WERE
                                LISTED AS BLACK, EVERYONE ELSE WAS LISTED



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                             09/03/2011
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                                              AS MULATTO. SO IF YOU WERE TO LOOK AT
                                              THAT AND NOT SEE THAT IT WAS THE
                                              SHINNECOCK TRIBE THAT WAS LABELLED ON
                                              THE CENSUS YOU WOULD THINK, ‘MY
                                              GOODNESS, THIS IS JUST A FAMILY OF PERSONS
                                              OF COLOR’ AND NOT THINK ANYTHING ABOUT
                                              INDIAN. AND SO IT WASN’T… AFTER I GOT INTO
                                              THIS DEEP ENOUGH, IT WASN’T SO SURPRISING
                                              THAT YOU WOULD MOSTLY SEE THIS
                                              DESIGNATION WHEN IT WAS ASKED FOR IN A
                                              RECORD. RACE, COLOR, I FORGET WHAT SOME
                                              OF THE OTHER LABELS WERE THAT WOULD BE
                                              FILLED IN THIS WAY. SO IT WASN’T A LOT THAT
                                              SAID INDIAN. AND THEN AS I ALSO LEARNED,
                                              BECAUSE I DIDN’T REALLY UNDERSTAND ALL
                                              THE EARLY POLITICAL HISTORY UNTIL I
                                              REALLY GOT MY FEET WET IN ALL THIS, THAT
                                              FOR A VERY LONG PERIOD OF TIME IT WOULD
                                              HAVE BEEN VERY DANGEROUS EVEN, IF NOT AT
                                              LEAST SORT OF A SOCIAL PROBLEM TO
                                              IDENTIFY YOURSELF AS INDIAN IN THAT AREA.
INDIAN               INT 2      01:21:43:08   I THINK IT WAS CONSIDERED A VERY LOW FORM
STEREOTYPES                                   OF HUMANITY BY A LOT OF PEOPLE EVEN MORE
                                              SO THAN PERSONS OF COLOR. WE’RE TALKING
                                              ABOUT THE NORTHEAST, WHERE WE WOULD
                                              THINK THINGS WOULD BE MORE LIBERAL AND
                                              LESS BIGGOTED, LESS PROBLEMATIC THAN SAY
                                              IN THE SOUTH, BUT I’M SURE MOST PEOPLE
                                              KNOW THAT IT WASN’T, BY NOW YOU KNOW,
                                              THAT WASN’T NECESSARILY TRUE. THE HISTORY
                                              EVEN COMING FROM THE CECIL B. DEMILLE
                                              MOVIES OF INDIANS ATTACKING THE SETTLERS
                                              TRIED TO BE PIONEERS AND EVERYTHING LIKE
                                              THAT, THAT TRANSLATE BACK TO THIS AREA SO
                                              I THINK THAT’S ANOTHER PIECE OF IT. THAT
                                              INDIAN WAS BAD, YOU KNOW? IT WASN’T
                                              ACTUALLY UNTIL ABOUT THE 1920S WHEN
                                              THERE WAS SOMETHING CALLED A SORT OF A
                                              PAN-INDIAN MOVEMENT WHEN IT BECAME
                                              MUCH MORE – PEOPLE BECAME MUCH MORE
                                              INTERESTED IN INDIANS. IN FACT, INDIANS
                                              GROUPS FOUND OUT THAT IF THEY FIT THE
                                              ROLE INCLUDING THEIR DRESS AND PARADED
                                              THINGS AND DID INDIAN WAR DANCES AND
                                              MADE THINGS THAT PEOPLE THOUGHT WERE
                                              CONNECTED WITH THEM THAT REALLY HELPED



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                           09/03/2011
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                                              THEM TO ATTAIN AN IDENTITY AND A PRESENCE
                                              AND ACCEPTANCE. BUT UP TO THAT TIME IT
                                              WASN’T SO COOL TO BE INDIAN BACK IN THAT
                                              TIME. I THINK PROBABLY THAT PREJUDICE AND
                                              THAT SITUATION DID DICTATE A LOT OF HOW
                                              PEOPLE WERE IDENTIFIED IN RECORDS.
WHAT IS A            INT 3      01:23:41:01   I’M OFTEN ASKED OR QUESTIONED WHEN
GENEALOGIST                                   SOMEONE ASKS ME, ‘WHAT DO YOU DO?’ I’M A
?                                             GENEOLOGIST. THEY GET ALL CONFUSED. I THINK
                                              THE EASIEST DEFINITION THAT I GIVE TO THE MAN
                                              ON THE STREET, THE WOMAN ON THE STREET, IS
                                              FAMILY TREES. ‘OHHHHHH, YEAH, I HAVE A
                                              COUSIN WHO IS INTO THAT…’ BUT THEY DON’T
                                              KNOW THE WORD NECESSARILY. IT REALLY HAS
                                              DIFFERENT ASPECTS BUT ESSENTIALLY IT IS, EVEN
                                              THOUGH ITS NOT AN EXACT SCIENCE, IN THE
                                              PRACTICAL APPLICATION OF IT, IT’S CONNECTING
                                              PEOPLE WHO’RE RELATED. CONNECTING PEOPLE
                                              WITH EVIDENCE. CONNECTING PEOPLE IN
                                              SOMETHING YOU WOULD DISPLAY SUCH AS A
                                              CHART OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. IT CAN GO ANY
                                              DIRECTION. YOU CAN DO A GENEOLOGICAL STUDY
                                              COMING DOWN FROM ONE PERSON OR ONE FAMILY
                                              OR ONE COUPLE OR WHATEVER. THE
                                              DESCENDANTS OF OR SOMETHING. YOU CAN TAKE
                                              AND GO BACKWARDS IN TIME. YOU CAN TAKE
                                              YOURSELF AND TRACE YOUR ANCESTORY, THAT
                                              ALL INVOLVES WHAT WE CALL GENEOLOGY. YOU
                                              CAN GO WHAT WE SAY TO THE SIDES. YOU HAVE
                                              YOUR ANCESTORS WHO ARE RELATIVES OF
                                              COURSE, BUT YOU HAVE WHAT WE CALL
                                              COLLATORAL RELATIVES WHO AREN’T YOUR
                                              ANCESTORS BUT PART OF YOUR SAME FAMILY.
                                              YOUR SIBLINGS YOUR AUNTS YOUR UNCLES YOUR
                                              40 11TH COUSINGS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. IF YOU
                                              REALLY START PUTTING MORE INTO THE
                                              DEFINITION, WHAT IS INVOLVED IN THE PROCESS
                                              OF DOING GENEOLOGY, WHICH WOULD BE
                                              STUDYING DIFFERENT TYPES OF RECORDS THAT
                                              PROVIDE THE EVIDENCE FOR HOW YOU SAY THIS IS
                                              THIS PERSON’S MOTHER, THIS IS THIS PERSON’S
                                              FIRST COUSIN AND SO FORTH. AND AS I
                                              MENTIONED IN ANOTHER TIME I’M A CERTIFIED
                                              GENEOLOGIST WHICH MEANS THAT I’VE BEEN
                                              TESTED TO SHOW I SUPPOSEDLY WHAT I’M DOING.
                                              AND WHEN I WAS HIRED FOR THE WORK WITH THE



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                             09/03/2011
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                                              RAMAPO GROUP, THE LAW FIRM THAT HIRED ME
                                              SPECIFICALLY SOUGHT OUT A CERTIFIED
                                              GENEOLOGIST. I’M SURE THEY HAD HEARD FROM
                                              THE BUREAU OF INDIAN AFFAIRS THAT THIS WAS
                                              DESIRABLE. I DON’T KNOW IF IT WAS A
                                              REQUIREMENT, BUT ANYHOW… THAT HELPED ME
                                              GET THE JOB. MY INSTRUCTIONS WERE TO DO, OR
                                              TO TRACE OR TO DOCUMENT THE GENEOLOGY OF
                                              THE TRIBE.
HIS RESEARCH         INT 3      01:26:33:00   MY INSTRUCTIONS… THE REASON FOR WHICH I
WITH THE RMI                                  WAS HIRED WAS TO DO THE GENEOLOGY, DO
                                              THE GENEOLOGICAL RESEARCH, COME UP WITH
                                              THE DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE TO SHOW THE
                                              GENEOLOGY, THE GENETIC LINKS OF THE
                                              RAMAPO MOUNTAIN TRIBE. WHICH WAS, STILL
                                              IS, ONE OF THE REQUIREMENTS THAT YOU
                                              SHOW THIS WORK WHEN YOU APPLY FOR
                                              FEDERAL RECOGNITION FROM THE FEDERAL
                                              GOVERNMENT. SO VERY BASICALLY WHAT MY
                                              WORK ENTAILED WAS TO GO OUT AND IDENTIFY
                                              THE RAMAPO MOUNTAIN TRIBE PEOPLE AND
                                              SHOW AND CHART IN A NARRATIVE WITH
                                              DOCUMENTS HOW ARE THEY CONNECTED?
                                              GOING BACK IN TIME. DIDN’T SPEND A LOT OF
                                              TIME ON THE CONTEMPORARY PEOPLE, THEY ALL
                                              KNEW WHO THEY WERE, THEY COULD SAY, ‘WELL,
                                              I’M JOE’S SON, I’M FRANK’S BROTHER’ THIS, THAT,
                                              AND THE OTHER. THE ROLE THAT THE TRIBE KEPT
                                              IDENTIFIED THIS, AND SO FORTH. THE IMPORTANT
                                              THING WAS TO ANSWER WENT BACK IN TIME,
                                              HOW ALL THESE PEOPLE – WHERE DO THEY
                                              COME FROM? HOW DO THEY TRACE BACK? FOR
                                              ME, PART OF IT WAS TO LINK THEM AND SHOW
                                              THAT THEY DO CONNECT DIRECTLY
                                              SPECIFICALLY TWO PEOPLE THAT WE CAN
                                              DOCUMENT GOING BACK IN TIME SAY IN THE
                                              EARLY 20TH CENTURY, TURN OF THE CENTURY,
                                              GOING BACK IN THE 19TH CENTURY AND SO
                                              FORTH. AND AS I GOT BACK FURTHER IN TIME IT
                                              BECOMES MORE DIFFICULT JUST LIKE IT DOES
                                              IN ALMOST ANYONE’S ANCESTORY BECAUSE
                                              THE RECORDS KIND OF PETER OUT OR THE
                                              RECORDS THAT BY AND LARGE WERE NEVER
                                              CREATED FOR THE PURPOSE OF TRACING ONE’S
                                              ANCESTORY OR FAMILY CONNECTIONS DON’T
                                              SHOW ALWAYS EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                              09/03/2011
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                                              KNOW. THE FEDERAL CENSUS JUST AS AN
                                              EXAMPLE, IF YOU GO BACK EARLIER IN TIME
                                              THERE’S MUCH LESS INFORMATION. IN FACT,
                                              BEFORE 1850, IT ONLY LISTS THE NAME OF THE
                                              HEAD OF THE HOUSEHOLD. AND THEN BROKEN
                                              DOWN IN STATISTICAL INFORMATION AS TO AGE
                                              AND SEX GROUPS. THERE’S A WHOLE OTHER
                                              INVOLVMENT WITH WHAT NATIVE AMERICANS
                                              GOT LISTED ON CENSUSES IF THEY DID AT ALL
                                              IN EARLIER TIMES. FOR THE RAMAPO GROUP IT
                                              ACTUALLY WAS TO THEIR ADVANTAGE THAT
                                              THEY WEREN’T IN TERMS OF THE FEDERAL
                                              CENSUS THAT THEY WEREN’T ON A
                                              RESERVATION. HAD THEY BEEN, THEY
                                              WOULDN’T HAVE BEEN CATALOGUED OR
                                              ENUMERATED BY NAME AND AGE AND SO FORTH
                                              UNTIL 1870. THE FACT THAT THEY WEREN’T IN
                                              THIS IDENTIFIABLE BOUNDARY OF WHAT WE
                                              THINK OF AS A RESERVATION OR COME TO
                                              KNOW AS A RESERVATION WAS AT LEAST TO
                                              THEIR ADVANTAGE IN TERMS OF BEING LISTED
                                              IN THE CENSUS RECORDS. SO ONCE I’M BACK
                                              SORT OF BACK INTO THE EARLY 19TH CENTURY, I’M
                                              REALLY GRASPING AT WHATEVER I CAN PULL
                                              TOGETHER FROM RECORDS. PEOPLE WHO LIVED A
                                              LONG TIME, IF THEY HAVE A DEATH CERTIFICATE,
                                              OR THEY’RE IN THE CENSUS THERE MAY BE SOME
                                              CLUES AS TO WHERE THEY’RE COMING FROM.
                                              CERTAINLY WE’RE WORKING WITH NAMES THAT
                                              LINK TOGETHER. THE FACT THAT THESE PEOPLE
                                              PRETTY MUCH STAYED IN A VERY SMALL AREA
                                              OR A VERY DEFINED AREA WAS TO AN
                                              ADVANTAGE. IF YOU SUDDENLY FOUND A
                                              DEGRODE OR A MANN OR DEPHRESE OR SOME
                                              OF THESE OTHER NAMES THAT WERE SORT OF
                                              VERY FEW NAMES THAT REPEATED
                                              THEMSELVES. ‘OH, GOT TO FIT THERE
                                              SOMEWHERE.’ SO IF YOU HAVE A FIRST NAME
                                              AND AN AGE OR SOME CONNECTION WITH THAT
                                              PERSON WITH ANOTHER PERSON, THEN MAYBE
                                              YOU CAN TEASE THAT OUT OF ANOTHER
                                              RECORD, ‘AH, IT’S THE SAME PERSON.’ AND YOU
                                              CAN BUILD AND GO BACK A LITTLE BIT
                                              FURTHER.
DIFFICULTIES         INT 3      01:30:39:04    NOW WE’RE GETTING INTO REALLY DIFFICULT
OF FNGING                                     TIME BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF RECORDS. THIS



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                             09/03/2011
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RECORDS IN                      WAS AN AREA THAT WAS VERY, WOULDN’T SAY
NORTHEAST                       IGNORED, BUT JUST SORT OF FELL INTO NO-
                                MAN’S LAND DURING THE REVOLUTIONARY
                                WAR. THERE WERE A LOT OF UPHEAVAL, A LOT
                                OF BACK AND FORTH WITH NEW JERSEY GOING
                                UP INTO NEW YORK AND NEW ENGLAND
                                WHERER THERE WAS A LOT OF ACTIVITY, YOU
                                KNOW, FOR THE FIGHTING AND ALL THAT. SO
                                I’M SURE THERE WAS A LOT OF TURMOIL IN THE
                                MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE AND CERTAINLY A LACK
                                OF RECORD KEEPING THAT WAS SORT OF NOT IN
                                MY FAVOR FOR TRACING INDIVIDUALS, FOR
                                TRACING FAMILIES, FOR TRACING GROUPS OR
                                ANYTHING ELSE. WHAT I FOUND OUT THAT THERE
                                WAS EITHER SPECIFIC OR VERY STRONG
                                IMPLICATION OF SOME OF THESE PEOPLE WHO
                                COULD TRACE BACK TO COLONIAL FAMILIES. AND
                                DAVID COEN IN HIS WORK ON RAMAPO PEOPLE
                                HAD COME INTO THIS. DAVID WAS NOT A
DAVID COHEN                     GENEOLOGIST. I DON’T KNOW EITHER FROM HIS
                                BOOK OR IN OTHER SOURCES THAT HE HAD
                                EITHER SOME TRAINING OR GOTTEN SOME
                                EXPERIENCE MAYBE TRACING HIS OWN FAMILY
                                OR OTHER PEOPLE ABOUT HOW THIS IS DONE
                                AND SO FORTH. BUT HE DID MAKE SOME IN-
                                ROADS THAT WAY. BECAUSE HE FOUND SIMILAR
                                NAMES OR THE SAME NAMES IN EARLIER
                                COLONIAL RECORDS. AND HE PRESENTED SOME
                                OF THAT WHICH HE FOUND. BUT HE DIDN’T
                                KNOW HOW TO TIE IT TOGETHER WITH THE
                                RAMAPO PEOPLE IF HE COULD. IT WAS ALMOST –
                                I’M NOT SURE IF THIS IS A FAIR ASSESSMENT.
                                IT’S ALMOST TO SAY, ‘OKAY. WE HAVE SOME
                                DEFREEZE’S HERE IN THE RAMAPO MOUNTAIN
                                PEOPLE. WE HAVE SOME DEFREEZE’S IN
                                MANHATTAN. OR SOMEWHERE ELSE EARLIER IN
                                COLONIAL NEW JERSEY OR SOMETHING. THEY
                                MUST LINK TOGETHER SOMEHOW.’ I DON’T
                                KNOW – I HAVEN’T FOUND THE MISSING LINK.
                                BUT THEN HE GOES FORWARD IN HIS
                                DISCUSSION AS IF HE’S PROVED IT. WE HAVE A
                                SAYING IN GENEOLOGY, THERE’S NOT A
                                SPECIFIC SAYING, BUT IT’S SORT OF THAT THE
                                NAME’S THE SAME. AND THE PITFALL OF THAT
                                IF YOU FIND JOHN SMITH IN THIS RECORD AND
                                YOU FIND JOHN SMITH IN THIS RECORD, EVEN



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                             09/03/2011
KOTP- INTV W/ ETP (TAPE #: )                                     15


                                              WITH THE ADVANTAGE OF SAY, WELL, THEY
                                              REFER TO THE SAME GENERAL AREA OR THE
                                              SAME GENERAL TIME PERIOD, MUST BE THE
                                              SAME PERSON. AND IT’S EASY TO FALL INTO
                                              THAT TRAP BECAUSE WITHOUT OTHER
                                              IDENTIFIERS YOU CAN’T SAY FOR SURE THIS IS
                                              THE SAME JOHN SMITH. SO I THINK DAVID HAS
                                              SOME OF THAT IN SOME OF HIS GENEOLOGICAL
                                              REASONING. IT’S REALLY NOT WELL PRESENTED
                                              AND WELL THOUGHT OUT. SO YOU CAN’T
                                              DEFINITELY SAY THAT HE’S MADE THESE LINKS
                                              TO THESE EARLIER COLONIAL PEOPLE WITH
                                              THE SAME NAME – SAME LAST NAME. IT
                                              PROBABLY WORKS FOR SOME OF THE CASES,
                                              BUT WHAT I WOULD CRITICIZE FOR, AGAIN, I
                                              HAVEN’T READ HIS BOOK…
MORE DAVID           INT 4      01:33:58:11   WELL WHAT I WOULD FIND FAULT IN DAVID
COHEN                                         COEN’S REASONING OR PRESENTAION IS HE
                                              FINDS PEOPLE OF THE SAME NAME THAT HE
                                              THINKS ARE THE ANCESTORS TO SOME OF
                                              THESE CORE NAME BRANCHES IF YOU WILL OF
                                              THE RAMAPO PEOPLE. AND HE PRESENTS IT – HE
                                              – I THINK HE USED SOME CAUTIONARY
                                              LANGUAGE. ‘I HAVEN’T PROVED IT BEYOND A
                                              DOUBT’ OR ‘I’M MISSING A LINK.’ BECAUSE I
                                              HAVE THESE PEOPLE, SAY, IN THE 1600S, EARLY
                                              1700S THEN SUDDENLY THIS NAME SHOWS UP IN
                                              THE MID 19TH CENTURY. BUT THEN HE, AS I
                                              RECALL, HE PROCEEDS AS IF HE’S PROVED IT
                                              THEN SO LATER ON IN THE BOOK IT’S AS IF HE’S
                                              ACCEPTED IT RATHER THAN THROWING BACK
                                              CAUTIONARY LANGUAGE AND SAYING
                                              ‘POSSIBLE.’ BUT TO THE POINT OF SAYING WELL,
                                              BECAUSE I SHOWED THESE PEOPLE CAN GO
                                              BACK TO COLONIAL DUTCH TIME WITH THESE
                                              NAMES WE FORGET ABOUT ANY KIND OF CLAIM
                                              TO INDIAN ANCESTORY. AS IF TO SAY THAT
                                              EVERYTHING MUST TRACE BACK TO THESE
                                              COLONIAL DUTCH NAMES. COLONIAL DUTCH
                                              FAMILIES. AND OF COURSE THERE WERE ALL
                                              THESE LEGENDS AND STORIES THAT WERE
                                              DEVELOPED TO KIND OF EXPLAIN WHAT WERE
                                              THE ROOTS OF THESE PEOPLE.
LEDGENDS OF          INT 4      01:35:42:10   I CAN’T RECALL ALL THE LEGENDS, BUT THERE
THE JW                                        WERE THINGS TO EXPLAIN, AND SOME OF THIS IS
                                              IN COEN’S BOOK, TO EXPLAIN WHY THE PEOPLE



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                            09/03/2011
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                                              MIGHT BE CALLED JACKSON WHITES, WHY THERE
                                              MIGHT BE PEOPLE WITH SURNAMES THAT DIDN’T
                                              SEEM TO BE ANGLO. ONE OF THE THEORIES OR ONE
                                              OF THE STORIES I THINK WAS WELL, SOME OF
                                              THE HESSIAN SOLDIERS OR THEIR
                                              DESCENDANTS CAME TO THE AREA… I’M SURE
                                              IT BOTHERED SOME PEOPLE WHO DIDN’T KNOW
                                              OR DIDN’T UNDERSTAND THINGS ABOUT
                                              HISTORY AND ANTHROPOLOGY. WHY DIDN’T
                                              THESE PEOPLE HAVE LIKE BIG FEATHER, DIDN’T
                                              HAVE INDIAN NAMES THAT WE KNOW FROM THE
                                              CECIL B. DEMILLE MOVIES. I’M PICKING ON THAT.
                                              BUT I THINK YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN IN TERMS
                                              OF THE IMAGE. AND SO YOU’RE FIGHTING AGAINST
                                              THAT DIFFICULTY. I CAN’T SAY THAT I FOUND
                                              ANYTHING THAT SORT OF EITHER SUPPORTED OR
                                              REALLY REFUTED EXCEPT NEGATIVELY IN OTHER
                                              WORDS I DIDN’T FIND ANY HESSIAN SOLDIER
                                              CONNECTIONS. I DIDN’T FIND ANYBODY NAMED
                                              JACKSON WHO CAME IN THE AREA AND I THINK
                                              THERE WAS SOME STORY THAT SOMEBODY
                                              BROUGHT A WHOLE BUNCH OF PROSTITUTES IN.
                                              I COULD UNDERSTAND HOW THESE PEOPLE WHO
                                              WERE DIFFERENT AND PEOPLE DOWN IN THE
                                              SETTLED AREA IF YOU WILL THAT WANTED TO
                                              AVOID THEM WOULD EASILY BE ABLE TO MAKE UP
                                              STORIES TO KIND OF EXPLAIN SOMETHING THAT
                                              THEY FELT WAS UNDESIRABLE. I CAN’T SAY THAT
                                              MY GENEOLOGICAL WORK SUPPORTED ANY OF
                                              THAT OR REFUTED IT. EXCEPT AS WHAT WE SAY
                                              NEGATIVE EVIDENCE AS TO I DIDN’T FIND
                                              ANYTHING TO SUPPORT ANY OF THESE
                                              LEGENDS. SO MAYBE THEY’RE NOT SO STRONG.
                                              ANYHOW…
EARLY                INT 4      01:37:27:08   BUT WHAT WAS FRUSTRATING BECAUSE I WAS
ACCOUNTS OF                                   SORT OF, THROUGH THE LAW FIRM THAT HAD
INDIANS                                       HIRED ME, I THINK THEY HAD THE IDEA, EITHER
UNCLEAR                                       BEING TOLD OR LEAD OR MISLEAD BY THE BIA,
                                              THAT THEY HAD TO TRACE BACK TO FIRST
                                              CONTACT AND THAT WAS, AND I THINK
                                              CONTINUES TO BE A GRAY AREA, AS TO WHAT
                                              DOES THAT MEAN? DO WE HAVE TO GO BACK TO
                                              INDIAN NUMBER ONE WHO CAME OUT AND MET
                                              THE FIRST BOAT THAT CAME INTO THE RAMAPO
                                              MOUNTAIN AREA? OR WHATEVER. AND SO
                                              THERE MUST BE A LINK, WE’VE GOT TO FIND



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                             09/03/2011
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                                              THAT BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT’S GOING TO
                                              SATISFY EVERYBODY. EVEN IF ITS ONLY ONE
                                              LINE. BECAUSE IT’S POSSIBLE THAT THERE’S
                                              MORE THAN ONE THAT’S ANCESTORAL TO THIS
                                              TRIBE, THIS GROUP. AND WE CERTAINLY KNEW
                                              FROM HISTORICAL RECORD THAT THERE WERE
                                              INDIANS IN THIS TERRITORY. AND IT WAS
                                              DIFFICULT BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WHO
                                              RECORDED ABOUT THEM DIDN’T GO UP AND ASK
                                              THEIR NAME. WHERE WERE YOU BORN? WHO
                                              WAS YOUR MOTHER? WHO WAS YOUR FATHER?
                                              HOW OLD ARE YOU? WHERE DID YOU GO TO
                                              SCHOOL? WHAT’S YOUR FAVORITE COLOR? YOU
                                              KNOW? SOMETHING TO REALLY GIVE THEM A
                                              PERSONAL IDENTITY TO SPECIFIC PEOPLE.
                                              WELL, THERE’S A GROUP OF INDIANS WE
                                              OBSERVED TODAY THAT WERE OUT WORKING
                                              PICKING FLOWERS OR WORKING THE FIELDS OR
                                              HERDING THEIR CATTLE THROUGH OR
                                              WHATEVER. OR SOMETHING EVEN A LITTLE
                                              MORE – LESS DEFINITE. THE INDIANS WHO LIVE
                                              UP IN THE MOUNTAINS AND SO FORTH. SO WE
                                              KNOW FROM HISTORICAL RECORD THAT IS
                                              BELIEVABLE, PEOPLE WHO VISITED FROM
                                              EUROPE EVEN WHO WROTE ACCOUNTS,
                                              BECAUSE I’M SURE THIS WAS SOMETHING VERY
                                              DIFFERENT TO THEM TO COMMENT
                                              SPECIFICALLY ABOUT INDIANS, SO WE KNOW
                                              THEY WERE THERE. THEY JUST AS I SAID, DIDN’T
                                              GO OUT AND DOCUMENT THEM AS SPECIFIC
                                              INDIVIDUALS BY NAME OR SOME DESCRIPTION.
WHERE DID            INT 4      01:39:37:17   HOW WOULD I COME TO SOME SORT OF
THE LEGENDS                                   CONCLUSION OR UNDERSTANDING OR REASONING
COME FROM?                                    AS TO WHY THESE PEOPLE GOT THEIR
                                              REPUTATION? I THINK IT GOES BACK TO WHAT I
                                              SAID JUST A LITTLE WHILE AGO. I THINK THAT
                                              WHEN YOU HAVE A GROUP THAT IS NOT PART OF
                                              YOUR MAIN STREAM, AND THIS HAPPENS EVEN
                                              IN SMALL SITUATIONS, LET’S SAY YOU HAVE A
                                              FAMILY ON YOUR BLOCK THAT NEVER COMES
                                              OUT OF THEIR HOUSE, KEEPS THEMSELVES AND
                                              EVERYTHING, YOU KNOW HOW THINGS… ‘WELL,
                                              GEE, I WONDER IF THEY’RE ALL ILL’ OR ‘THEY
                                              DON’T SPEAK ENGLISH’ OR SOMETHING LIKE
                                              THAT. AND THEN THIS GROWS AND GROWS. SO I
                                              THINK, MY PERSONAL UNDERSTANDING, THAT A



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                            09/03/2011
KOTP- INTV W/ ETP (TAPE #: )                                     18


                                              LOT OF THAT WAS PROBABLY THE ROOT OF
                                              THEM BEING SO BADLY THOUGHT OF. AND THEY
                                              LIVED DIFFERENTLY; THEY DIDN’T LIVE IN
                                              YOUR TYPICAL HOUSEHOLD. AND SURE, WHAT
                                              THEY ATE… AND THIS WOULD BE WITH VERY
                                              LOW CONTACT FROM MY UNDERSTANDING.
                                              PEOPLE DIDN’T GO UP THERE, TAKE BUSES, AND
                                              GO ON A TOURIST EXCURSION TO GO SEE THE
                                              FOLKS, AND STORIES WOULD FILTER DOWN. SO,
                                              FROM THESE LITTLE SEEDS GREW ALL THESE
                                              VERY COLORFUL LEGENDS ABOUT VERY
                                              STRANGE PEOPLE. THAT’S THE BEST… I’M NOT
                                              AN ANTHROPOLIGIST AND I’M NOT A HISTORIAN
                                              OF THE AREA SO…
                     INT 4      01:41:15:12   I GUESS SO. ALTHOUGH WHAT I WAS SAYING AS A
                                              VERY BAD EXAMPLE, PERHAPS, ABOUT YOUR
                                              NEIGHBORS WHO KEEP TO THEMSELVES, I DON’T
                                              KNOW THAT I WOULD CALL THAT RACISM…
                     INT 4      01:41:28:00   IF THEY’RE DIFFERENT FROM YOU IN TERMS OF
                                              THEIR COLOR OR MAYBE EVEN HOW THEY DRESS
                                              OR ACT, HOW THEY WALK, OR SOMETHING. YEAH
                                              IT COULD BE. MAYBE BIGGOTRY IS A BETTER
                                              WORD. I DON’T KNOW…
                     INT 4      01:42:01:18   MY FINDINGS FROM MY GENEOLOGICAL STUDY,
                                              AND AGAIN, I WOULD KIND OF WANT TO EXPLAIN
                                              THAT I SORT OF HAD SOME INSTRUCTIONS, SORT
                                              OF HAD – WAS GIVEN AN IDEA WHERE THIS WAS TO
                                              GO, AND I THINK THAT CHANGED AS I GOT MORE
                                              EXPERIENCE IN THIS PARTICULAR FIELD…
THE                  INT 5      01:42:35:00   YOU’VE ASKED ABOUT WHAT MY FINDINGS WERE
DIRECTIVE HE                                  FOR MY GENEOLOGICAL STUDY OF THE RAMAPO
WAS GIVEN BY                                  MOUNTAIN TRIBE THAT EVENTUALLY WAS
THE LAWYERS                                   TURNED IN AS PART OF THEIR PETITION TO THE
                                              BUREAU OF INDIAN AFFAIRS FOR FEDERAL
                                              ACKNOWLEDGMENT. IN ORDER TO ANSWER THAT
                                              QUESTION I REALLY HAVE TO SAY THAT AS I
                                              THINK BACK ON IT, I SORT OF HAD SORT OF A… A
                                              DIRECTIVE AS TO WHAT ROUTE IT WAS… THAT
                                              WAS THE GOAL WAS. I’M NOT SURE I WOULD SEE IT
                                              QUITE THE SAME WAY HAD I HAD SOME
                                              EXPERIENCE WITH THE FEDERAL
                                              ACKNOWLEDGMENT PROCESS AND KNEW MORE
                                              ABOUT ITS HISTORY AND HOW I WOULD MAYBE GO
                                              ABOUT IT A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY OR MAYBE A LOT
                                              DIFFERENTLY TODAY. BUT, THE IDEA WAS THAT I
                                              HAD TO CONNECT THESE MODERN DAY LIVING


   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                             09/03/2011
KOTP- INTV W/ ETP (TAPE #: )                                      19


                                              PEOPLE BACK THROUGH TIME TO SOMETHING
                                              THAT WAS VERY SPECIFIC TO THEIR NATIVE
                                              AMERICAN ROOTS.
DOES HE HAVE         INT 5      01:43:43:23   DID I FULFILL THE REQUIREMENT THAT THE
ANY REGRETS                                   FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WANTED? DID I FULFILL
ABOUT HIS                                     THE REQUIREMENT THAT I WAS HIRED TO DO BY
WORK?                                         THE LAW FIRM? I GUESS I’M NOT SURE. THEY
                                              GOT A NEGATIVE FINDING. AND I KNOW THERE
                                              WAS CRITICISM ABOUT THE GENEOLOGICAL
                                              WORK, NOT SO MUCH THAT I HAD DONE A
                                              TERRIBLE JOB, BECAUSE I WAS ACTUALLY TOLD
                                              BY ONE OF THE PEOPLE AT THE, AT LEAST ONE I
                                              THINK, AT LEAST TWO PEOPLE AT THE BIA THAT
                                              I HAD DONE A WONDERFUL JOB… LEN
                                              MCCMILLION? WHO WAS A GENEOLOGIST THERE
                                              AT THE TIME. I THINK DR. VIRGINIA DEMARS? WHO
                                              I DIDN’T KNOW AS WELL. PRAISED CERTAIN PARTS
                                              OF IT. IT WASN’T AN OVERALL THING, BUT LEN
                                              SAID YOU DID A GREAT JOB, ROGER. THAT MADE
                                              ME FEEL GOOD BECAUSE IT WAS A COLLEAGUE
                                              TELLING ME THIS, BUT AGAIN I WAS STILL SORT OF
                                              ON SHAKY GROUND AS TO WELL, WHAT DOES
                                              THAT ACTUALLY MEAN? I FELT THAT I HAD
                                              MAYBE NOT DONE THE JOB OR I FELT BAD THAT
                                              I WASN’T SUCCESSFUL TO SAY, ‘OKAY I CAN
                                              TAKE THE RAMAPO MOUNTAIN PEOPLE AND
                                              TAKE THEM BACK TO’ I’LL JUST MAKE UP A
                                              NAME, IT MAY SOUND DEMEANING BUT IT’S NOT
                                              ‘JOE INDIAN.’ BECAUSE A PERSON BACK IN THE
                                              EARLY 19TH, GOING BACK IN THE 18TH CENTURY
                                              MIGHT BE CALLED THAT, YOU KNOW? WE DON’T
                                              KNOW WHAT HE HIMSELF CALLED HIMSELF
                                              NECESSARILY BUT THE WHITE PEOPLE WHO DID
                                              THE RECORDING, WHATEVER, WOULD HAVE
                                              CALLED HIM SAY, ‘JOE INDIAN.’ IT WASN’T
                                              POSSIBLE TO DO THAT AS STRONGLY AS I
                                              WOULD HAVE LIKED AND WHAT I BELIEVED WAS
                                              REQUIRED. I WAS AT LEAST ABLE TO TAKE SOME
                                              OF THE LINES BACK FAIRLY EARLY. AND IN
                                              SOME OF THE CASES IT WAS A MATTER OF
                                              DEALING WITH NAMES, WERE IN THE SAME AREA,
                                              MAYBE DON’T HAVE A DOCUMENT THAT SAYS
                                              SPECIFICALLY THIS, BUT, IF YOU’VE GOT
                                              SOMEBODY NAMED MANN IN THAT AREA IN 1810
                                              AND YOU’VE GOT ONE THERE IN 1898, AND YOU
                                              KNOW IT’S THE SAME AREA, YOU KNOW IT’S THE



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                             09/03/2011
KOTP- INTV W/ ETP (TAPE #: )                       20


                                SAME NAME, YOU KNOW IT’S THE SAME
                                NEIGHBORS OR GENERAL NEIGHBORS, YOU CAN
                                MAKE, I WOULDN’T CALL IT A LEAP, BUT YOU CAN
                                MAKE A VERY GOOD EDUCATED GUESS THAT IT
                                HAS TO BE THE SAME FAMILY. IT’S NOT A WHOLE
                                DIFFERENT GROUP OF MANNS COMING IN WHEN
                                THE OTHER ONES LEAVE. A REPLACEMENT. AND I
                                WAS ABLE TO FIND EVIDENCE OF SOME EARLY
                                PEOPLE WHO WERE DESCRIBED AS INDIAN.
                                THERE WAS ONE CASE OF JOHN DEFREEZE IN A
                                NEW YORK MILITIA ROLE IN 1750S OR 1760S,
                                ABOUT THE TIME THE FRENCH AND INDIAN WAR,
                                OF ALL THINGS, WITH HIS AGE AND AN
                                IDENTIFIER TO SAY HE’S INDIAN. AND HE’S IN
                                THE AREA AND YOU KNOW, WHO ELSE COULD IT
                                BE? HE DIDN’T COME FROM MAINE, SOME
                                INDIAN TRIBE IN MAINE, OR AT LEAST NOT
                                RECENTLY HE DIDN’T COME BACK FROM THE
                                WEST, FROM ONE OF THE WESTERN TRIBES. SO
                                IF WE KNOW THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE
                                IDENTIFIED AS INDIAN AS EARLY AS WE CAN…
                                THIS IS A SPECIFIC INDIVIDUAL NOW, WHICH IS
                                WONDERFUL, THAT WE CAN IDENTIFY HERE IN
                                THE 18TH CENTURY. THEN WE START PICKING UP
                                DESCRIPTIONS OF INDIANS WHO ARE STILL IN
                                THE AREA LATER AND THEN FIND SPECIFIC
                                IDENTIFIERS TO PEOPLE THAT WE KNOW ARE
                                ANCESTORAL TO THE RAMAPO MOUNTAIN
                                PEOPLE WHO ARE CALLED COPPER, RED, INDIAN,
                                MIXED, YOU KNOW, YOU DO HAVE A LITTLE BIT
                                OF TROUBLE WHEN IT SAYS MULLATO OR
                                SOMETHING. BECAUSE AGAIN, THIS IS
                                SOMEBODY ELSES LABEL FOR THEM. JUST
                                BECAUSE YOU SEE MULLATO DOESN’T MEAN
                                THEY’RE AUTOMATICALLY INDIAN. BUT IF YOU
                                SEE ONE INDIVIDUAL FROM THIS MULLATO
                                GROUP WHO IS ON ANOTHER RECORD
                                IDENTIFIED AS INDIAN, I THINK IT’S A VERY
                                STRONG PIECE OF EVIDENCE THAT IT IS.
                                NOTHING EVER CALLED ANY OF THESE EARLY
                                INDIVIDUALS… NOTHING IDENTIFIED THEM AS
                                BEING OF A SPECIFIC TRIBE. BUT IF THROUGH
                                THE ANTHROPOLOGY AND THROUGH
                                HISTORICAL WRITINGS AND SO ON THAT WE
                                KNOW THAT THE XYZ TRIBE WAS IN THIS AREA,
                                WHAT ELSE COULD IT BE? BECAUSE THERE’S NO



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                              09/03/2011
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                                              EVIDENCE THAT SUDDENLY ALL THESE PEOPLE
                                              WERE GONE AND ANOTHER TRIBE CAME IN FOR
                                              A COUPLE OF YEARS AND ANOTHER TRIBE OR
                                              SOMETHING LIKE THAT… IT ALMOST HAS TO FIT
                                              THE – THE CONNECTION WOULD BE THERE WITH
                                              THE HISTORIC TRIBE. THAT’S ONE OF THE
                                              THINGS THAT I DIDN’T KNOW OR UNDERSTAND,
                                              WASN’T MADE CLEAR TO ME THAT I LEARNED
                                              OVER TIME WAS WHAT THAT THE
                                              GENEOLOGICAL REQUIREMENT AS PART OF THE
                                              SEVEN REQUIRMENTS IN THE FEDERAL
                                              ACKNOWLEDGEMENT PROCESS REALLY MEANT.
GENEOLGICAL          INT 5      01:48:55:16   I DON’T KNOW THE – I CAN REMEMBER SOME OF
BURDEN OF                                     THEM BECAUSE CHRISTINE JUST DISCUSSED
POOF                                          THEM… BUT THE GENEOLOGICAL
                                              REQUIREMENT IS ABOUT GOING BACK, TRACING
                                              BACK TO HISTORIC TRIBE. AND WHAT THAT
                                              MEANS IS GOING BACK TO A POINT IN WHICH
                                              THERE IS DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE THAT THE
                                              XYZ TRIBE IS IN THIS, IN A SPECIFIC AREA AND
                                              YOU CAN CONNECT BACK TO IT. IT DOESN’T
                                              MEAN FIRST CONTACT WITH EUROPEANS IN
                                              THIS CASE. SO HAD THERE BEEN, LET’S SUPPOSE,
                                              HAD THERE BEEN A DOCUMENT FROM 1820, JUST
                                              PICK SOMETHING ARBITRARY, AND SOMEONE
                                              WENT IN, SOMEONE PROBABLY WITH SOME
                                              OFFICIAL CAPACITY, A GOVERNMENT PERSON, A
                                              SURVEYOR MAYBE MIGHT BE STRONG ENOUGH
                                              AND SAID, ‘OKAY. THERE’S THIS XYZ TRIBE
                                              HERE IN THE AREA AND TODAY I SPOKE TO JOE
                                              INDIAN AND I SPOKE TO HIS WIFE MATILDA AND
                                              THEIR DAUGHTER JUST GOT MARRIED, LILLIE’
                                              I’M USING NAMES THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE
                                              ACTUALLY USED AT THAT TIME BECAUSE OF THE
                                              INFLUENCE OF OTHER PEOPLES IN THEIR
                                              NEIGHBORHOOD AND ANCESTORY. AND MAYBE
                                              HAVING ENOUGH MORE ADDITIONAL NAMES IN
                                              THIS SURVEYOR’S REPORT OR PERSONAL LOG
                                              OR SOMETHING, THAT MIGHT BE SOMETHING
                                              THAT WOULD BE OFFICIAL ENOUGH BECAUSE IT
                                              WOULD HAVE A NAME OF A TRIBE, SAY OKAY,
                                              WE’VE GONE BACK TO A HISTORIC TRIBE.
                                              BECAUSE THERE ISN’T ANYTHING IN THAT
                                              CONNECTED AREA THAT’S DIFFICULT, THAT’S A
                                              NICE TIDY ROLE OF PEOPLE. WITH THEIR NAMES
                                              AND MAYBE WITH SOME WAY OF IDENTIFYING



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                            09/03/2011
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                                              THEM WITH AGE OR SOME OTHER CONNECTION.
EFFECTS OF           INT 6      01:51:13:20   A LOT OF WHAT IS KNOWN, BELIEVED,
DAVID                                         PRESUMED AND SO FORTH ABOUT THE RAMAPO
COHEN’S                                       MOUNTAIN TRIBE CAME OUT OF DAVID COEN’S
BOOK                                          BOOK. THIS YOUNG STUDENT WHO WENT AND
                                              LIVED AMONG THEM AND THEN WROTE THIS
                                              BOOK. ITS KIND OF THE OLD STORY THAT IF IT’S
                                              GETS INTO PRINT, BECOMES TRUE. WE SUFFER
                                              THAT IN GENEOLOGY. PEOPLE WHO WRITE
                                              THEIR FAMILY HISTORIES AND IT SAYS GREAT-
                                              GRANDPA CAME ON THE MAYFLOWER, MUST BE
                                              TRUE. AL CONOLONA WHO WAS ONE OF THE
                                              ATTORNEYS WHO HIRED ME AND WITH WHOM I
                                              WAS WORKING ON THE GENEOLOGICAL ASPECT
                                              OF ALL THIS, ONE OF HIS GOALS, ONE OF THE
                                              THINGS HE KEPT SAYING, ‘WE NEED TO TALK TO
                                              DAVID COEN, WE NEED TO FIND OUT HIS
                                              THOUGHTS THAT WENT INTO IT. WHAT ARE HIS
                                              THOUGHTS NOW?’ TO SOME PEOPLE HE WAS
                                              THIS HERO BECAUSE HE HAD QUOTE END QUOTE
                                              “DEFINED” THE GROUP AND HE WAS ALSO THE
                                              ENEMY OF THE TRIBE AND OTHER PEOPLE
                                              BECAUSE OH MY GOD HE’S MADE THEM INTO
                                              THIS AWFUL GROUP AND SO FORTH. BUT MANY
                                              SAW WORKED AGAINST THEIR GETTING
                                              FEDERAL RECOGNITION, BECAUSE HERE’S
                                              SOMETHING IN PRINT THAT PEOPLE WOULD
                                              RELATE TO – NOT RELATE TO – REFER TO, YOU
                                              KNOW? DOCUMENT. HIS BOOK BECAME A
                                              HISTORICAL DOCUMENT IF YOU WILL. ONE OF
                                              THE OTHER THINGS THAT AL WANTED TO QUIZ
                                              DAVID ABOUT WAS THE FACT THAT SINCE HE
                                              HAD SEEN THIS VINELAND STUDY AND THIS
                                              MYSTERIOUS MISSING CHART, WELL, HE CLAIMS
                                              TO HAVE SEEN IT. WHERE DID YOU SEE IT?
                                              WHERE DID YOU GO? DID YOU TAKE IT? DID YOU
                                              BURY IT? DID YOU BURN IT UP? BECAUSE IT HAD
                                              SOME, SOMETHING ON IT THAT WOULD… BECAUSE
                                              AL HAD THIS KIND OF CONSPIRACY THEORY IN HIS
                                              HEAD THAT MAYBE THERE WAS SOMETHING
                                              WOULDN’T SIT IN WITH WHAT DAVID CAME UP
                                              WITH FOR HIS BOOK.
HIM GOING TO         INT 6      01:35:20:01   SO FINALLY, AND YOU KNOW I’M TRYING TO
MEET DAVID                                    REMEMBER IF IT WAS AFTER WE TURNED IN THE
COHEN                                         PETITION AND EVERYTHING. IT SEEMED LIKE IT
                                              WAS LATER. HE CALLS ME UP AND SAYS, ‘WE



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                            09/03/2011
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                                              HAVE AN AUDIENCE WITH DAVID COEN.’ AND WE
                                              WENT DOWN TO TRENTON, WHERE HE WAS I
                                              THINK THEY HAD LOST A LOT OF MONEY IN THE
                                              NEW JERSEY HISTORICAL COMMISSION AND HE
                                              WAS ONE OF THREE PEOPLE. WE ALSO TOOK THIS
                                              PROFESSOR WHOSE NAME I CAN’T REMEMBER. IT’S
                                              ALMOST THERE. WHO WORKED AT RAMAPO
                                              COLLEGE AND HAD WRITTEN ABOUT THE INDIANS
                                              OF THE AREA AND HAD BEEN HELPFUL TO A POINT.
                                              BUT HIS INTEREST WAS MORE HISTORICAL. HE HAD
                                              NOT REALLY COME FORWARD WITH HIS STUDIES
                                              THAT WOULD REALLY HELP US WITH THE MISSING
                                              LINKS. AND I REMEMBER WE SAT IN KIND OF AN
                                              OPEN AREA AROUND DAVID COEN AND HIS DESK.
                                              I DON’T KNOW THAT HE ACTUALLY HAD A
                                              CUBICLE OR A NICE PRIVATE OFFICE AND
                                              EVERYTHING. HE WAS PRETTY MUTE. HE WAS
                                              CORDIAL, YOU KNOW, POLITE. AND I THINK I
                                              CAME OUT OF THERE THINKING, WELL, DID HE
                                              TELL US ANYTHING? I DON’T THINK SO. EVEN
                                              TRYING TO REMEMBER WHAT DID HE SAY
                                              ABOUT THIS CHART THAT WENT WITH THE
                                              VINELAND STUDY? I THINK HE SAID HE DOESN’T
                                              KNOW WHERE IT IS OR WHAT HAPPENED TO IT.
                                              HE MAY HAVE EVEN DENIED THAT HE HAD SEEN
                                              IT. I CAN’T SAY THAT FOR CERTAIN. IT’S JUST SO
                                              LONG AGO IN MY MEMORY. I THINK HE ALSO
                                              IMPARTED TO US THAT HE STOOD BY HIS
                                              FINDINGS. HE DIDN’T SAY I’VE HAD SOME
                                              SECOND THOUGHTS OR GEE, YEAH, MAYBE I
                                              WASN’T AS CAREFUL OR MAYBE I WASN’T AS
                                              THOROUGH OR MAYBE I DIDN’T UNDERSTAND
                                              THAT THIS WASN’T THE GENEOLOGICAL
                                              LENGTH THAT I ENDED UP SAYING IT WAS OR
                                              BELIEVING IT WAS. I WOULDN’T SAY HE WAS
                                              FIST POUNDING TO SAY ‘I STAND BY EVERY
                                              WORD’ BUT HE WAS VERY ADAMANT THAT
                                              EVERYTHING WAS PRETTY MUCH THE SAME AS
                                              WHEN HE HAD WRITTEN IT.
EFFECTS OF           INT 6      01:55:45:04   WHY DID THE BIA SIGHT HIS WORK AS FACT? I
COHEN’S                                       ASSUME YOU MEAN IN THEIR FINDINGS, IN
BOOK WITHIN                                   THEIR RESPONSE TO THE PETITION. I DON’T
BIA                                           RECALL THAT IT WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT
                                              STRONG. I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK AND REVIEW
                                              WHAT IT WAS THAT WAS SAID IN RELATION TO
                                              COEN’S BOOK AND HIS FINDINGS. I THINK HE



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                             09/03/2011
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                                              CERTAINLY HAD A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF
                                              AUTHORITY BECAUSE HE WAS HISTORIAN,
                                              ANTHROPOLOGIST, WHATEVER. A LOT OF
                                              PEOPLE IN TRYING TO PUT HIM DOWN SAID HE’S
                                              A FOLKLORIST. THAT’S NOT A BAD THING.
                                              THAT’S NOT A BAD THING. I DON’T THINK THAT
                                              TAKES AWAY SOME OF THE SCHOLARSHIP AND
                                              STUFF THAT PEOPLE WHO STUDY PEOPLE AND
                                              FOLKLORE AND SO ON ARE. SO I DON’T HAVE A
                                              STRONGER ANSWER TO THAT. BECAUSE ONCE HIS -
                                              DAVID’S WORK CAME OUT, PEOPLE SAID ‘AH!
                                              THERE’S THE ANSWER. IT’S IN PRINT. HERE’S
                                              SOMEONE WHO HAS SOME ACADEMIC
                                              BACKGROUND. WHY WOULD THEY MAKE ANY
                                              KIND OF MISTAKE OR SAY SOMETHING THAT
                                              WASN’T WHAT IT REALLY WAS?’ YOU’RE KIND OF
                                              LOCKED INTO THAT, YOU’RE FIGHTING AGAINST
                                              THAT. I REALLY DON’T REMEMBER THOUGH THAT
                                              IT WAS USED AS A STRONG ARGUMENT AGAINST
                                              THE TRIBE IN TRYING TO SHOOT DOWN THEIR
                                              PETITION. I CAN UNDERSTAND, BELIEVE MAYBE,
                                              SORT OF REMEMBER THAT IT DID HAVE
                                              SOMETHING OF AN INFLUENCE I WOULD SAY ON
                                              THE DECISION AGAINST THEM.
                     INT 6      01:57:47:04   YOU’RE ASKING ABOUT MY EMOTION IN HEARING
                                              WHAT THE DECISION WAS OR WHAT THE RESULT
                                              WAS ON THE… UM, WHAT’S THE WORD? NO NO NO
                                              NO THE NO NO NO THE THE THE THE THE THE
                                              REBUTTAL… THE APPEAL.
                     INT 6      01:58:14:10   THE APPEAL. I WASN’T A BIG PART OF THAT. AL
                                              WAS STILL INVOLVED. AL CONOLONA WAS STILL
                                              INVOLVED WHEN THEY DID THE APPEAL. AND WE
                                              DID GO BACK AND FORTH…
HIS MEETING          INT 6      01:58:35:16   WHEN THE BLUE BOOK WAS TURNED IN WE
AT THE BIA                                    WERE WAITING, AND IT WAS A LONG WAIT, YOU
                                              KNOW? [HOW LONG?] I DON’T REMEMBER. IT
                                              WAS SOME MONTHS. I COULDN’T TELL YOU HOW
                                              LONG IT WAS. SO, BY THE TIME YOU FINALLY
                                              GET CALLED, IT’S SORT OF BEEN OUT OF MIND,
                                              YOU’VE GONE ONTO OTHER THINGS… IT WAS A
                                              BIG DISAPPOINTMENT AND YET I THINK THERE
                                              WAS A PIECE OF ME, JUST WE KNEW THINGS
                                              WERE SORT OF STACKED AGAINST US, AT LEAST
                                              THAT WAS THE FEELING. I CAN’T SAY THAT A
                                              HUNDRED PERCENT SURE THAT EVERYTHING
                                              WAS STACKED AGAINST US, IT WAS ALL THIS


   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                            09/03/2011
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                                ASSUMPTION. WELL, THERE WAS A STRONG
                                LOBBY AGAINST IT THROUGH DONALD TRUMP
                                BECAUSE HE DIDN’T WANT SOMETHING
                                INTERFERING WITH HIS ATLANTIC CITY. THERE
                                WAS STRONG POLITICIANS IN NEW JERSEY WHO
                                WERE BEING VOCAL AGAINST IT. OH GOD, WE
                                CAN’T HAVE A CASINO IN OUR BACKYARD.
                                MARGE ROUKEMA WAS A BIG NAME AND STATE
                                SENATOR – WAS HE A STATE SENATOR? OR U.S.
                                SENATOR? YEAH, U.S. SENATOR. I THINK HE
                                STARTED OFF IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE
                                EARLIER. THIS IS SO LONG AGO. THERE WERE
                                OTHER NAMES THAT WERE BEING VOCAL WHO
                                WERE IN THE POLITICAL SCENE AND CERTAINLY,
                                EVEN IF IT WASN’T TRUE YOU CERTAINLY FELT
                                THAT THE STATEMENTS IN THE PRESS AND
                                WHAT WAS ON TV AND EVEN IN MAGAZINES AND
                                SO ON, THAT THESE PEOPLE WERE SO
                                VEHEMENT ABOUT THIS. THAT IT SORT OF
                                PUSHED AGAINST YOU, CERTAINLY HERE [HITS
                                CHEST AND BANGS MIC], AS WELL AS HERE [TAPS
                                HEAD], MAYBE IN WASHINGTON WITH THESE
                                OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE MAKING THIS
                                DECISION. I FELT… WE HAD A MEETING WITH
                                ADA DEER WHO WAS THEN THE ASSISTANT
                                SECRETARY WHO WAS HEAD OF THE BUREAU OF
                                INDIAN AFFAIRS. AND SHE OF COURSE WAS A
                                NATIVE I FORGET WHAT HER BACKGROUND, OR
                                WHERE SHE CAME FROM. SHE HADN’T BEEN
                                THERE FOR VERY LONG. WE WENT DOWN, AL
                                CONOLONA AND SUE KO, WHO WAS ANOTHER
                                ATTORNEY I WAS WORKING WITH, SOME OF THE
                                MEMEBERS OF THE TRIBE, THE TRIBE, THE
                                CHIEF, LINDA POWELL, THE SECRETARY, I
                                THINK SOME OTHER REPRESENTATIVES WHO
                                HAD WORKED LONG AND HARD WITH THE
                                ACKNOWLEDGMENT PETITION FROM THE TRIBE
                                ITSELF. AND WE MET WITH MS. DEER AND THERE
                                WAS SOME OTHER BIA FOLKS THERE, SOME OF
                                THE ACKNOWLEGMENT PEOPLE, DR. DEMARSE
                                WAS THERE, I THINK LEN MCMILLION WAS
                                THERE… AND IT SORT OF WENT AROUND THE
                                TABLE AND PEOPLE PRESENTED STATEMENTS
                                ABOUT WHAT THEY THOUGHT THEY WANTED
                                TO SAY OR WHAT, NOT WHAT THEY THOUGHT
                                THEY WANTED TO SAY, BUT WHAT THEY



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                             09/03/2011
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                                              WANTED TO SAY ABOUT THE PROCESS. IT WAS
                                              ALL VERY POLITE AND ADA WOULD NOD AND SO
                                              FORTH. ESSENTIALLY THE BIA PEOPLE DIDN’T
                                              SAY ANYTHING, DIDN’T SAY, WELL, YOU KNOW,
                                              WE WISH YOU THE BEST OF LUCK. OR, YOU
                                              KNOW, WE HOPE THAT YOU HAVE ALL YOUR
                                              DUCKS IN A ROW. IT WAS JUST SORT OF, THANK
                                              YOU FOR COMING DOWN AND VISITING AND
                                              BEING HERE, HAVE A NICE DAY. AND THAT
                                              DIDN’T GIVE YOU A GREAT FEELING. I DON’T
                                              KNOW WHAT ELSE THEY COULD HAVE DONE.
                                              MAYBE IT’S JUST THAT WAS THE SITUATION
                                              WITH ANYBODY WHO CAME DOWN. BUT AL AND
                                              SOME OF THE TRIBE PEOPLE SORT OF FELT,
                                              LET’S GO DOWN AND MAKE A PRESENCE AND
                                              MAKE THIS MORE PERSONAL IN WHAT WE SAY,
                                              JUST BEING THERE. SAYING WE’RE VERY
                                              CONCERNED ABOUT OUR CASE, WE KNOW THIS
                                              IS TOUGH FOR US; IT’S TOUGH FOR YOU. BUT WE,
                                              I THINK WE CAME - I CAME BACK WITH A
                                              FEELING OF JUST SORT OF, UGH. YOU KNOW?
MORE ABOUT           INT 7      02:02:31:07   THIS MEETING WITH THE ASSISTANT
THE BIA                                       SECRETARY AT THE BIA, ADA DEER, AND SOME
MEETING                                       OF THE OTHER BIA PEOPLE… I WAS JUST GOING
                                              TO, I WAS JUST THINKING HAD WE NOT GONE
                                              WOULD I HAVE FELT A LITTLE MORE POSITIVE
                                              OR A LITTLE MORE HOPEFUL. YEAH, POSSIBLY.
                                              THIS SORT OF BROUGHT IT DOWN A COUPLE OF
                                              NOTCHES AS TO WHAT WERE THE CHANCES OF
                                              THE TRIBE. I WAS ALSO AT THAT – BY THAT
                                              POINT NOT WITHOUT KNOWING, WITHOUT
                                              HAVING TALKED TO MANY OTHER PEOPLE
                                              ABOUT THE PROCESS AND WHAT’S IMPORTANT
                                              AND WHAT DO YOU REALLY PUT FORWARD AND
                                              PUSH BUT HAVING READ THE PETITION THAT
                                              THE ATTORNEYS HAD PREPARED, SOME
                                              THOUGHT, THIS DOESN’T REALLY SEEM TO GET
                                              AT WHAT I THINK IS PROBABLY REALLY,
                                              REALLY NEEDED. BUT I REALLY DIDN’T KNOW,
                                              BECAUSE THAT WASN’T MY FIELD AND SO
                                              FORTH. AND THEY WERE GREAT FOLKS. THEY
                                              WERE REALLY NICE; THEY REALLY
                                              APPRECIATED ME, MADE ME FEEL GOOD. WE
LOOKING                                       HAD SOME GOOD HEART TO HEART TALKS AND
BACK ON THE                                   MEETINGS AND WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO
CASE                                          AND WHAT CAN WE DO AND SO ON. BUT THEY



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                            09/03/2011
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                                              TOO WERE LIKE I, GREEN. I MEAN, I WASN’T
                                              GREEN AS A GENEOLOGIST. I FELT VERY
                                              CONFIDENT THAT WHAT I WAS PULLING
                                              TOGETHER WAS MAKING ALL THE
                                              GENEOLOGICAL LINKS. BUT TO DO WHAT WAS
                                              NEEDED FOR THE PETITION WAS THAT ONE
                                              EXTRA STEP. AND I THINK THAT THESE FOLKS
                                              NOT HAVING DONE ONE BEFORE, YOU ALWAYS
                                              HAVE TO HAVE THE FIRST TIME, RIGHT? THAT IF
                                              THEY HAD GOTTEN SOME BETTER OUTSIDE
                                              HELP I THINK THAT WOULD HAVE
                                              STRENGTHENED IT. WOULD IT HAVE MADE THE
                                              GRADE? I CAN’T SAY. BUT I THINK THAT IF YOU
                                              CAN LOOK AT IT WITH TODAY’S EYES, YEAH,
                                              THIS IS BEGINNING SCHOOL, YOU KNOW,
                                              PETITION 101. AND IF YOU CAN GO BACK AND
                                              REDO IT, IT’S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
                                              HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE HAVEN’T HAD THE
                                              EXPERIENCE OR THE UNDERSTANDING OF
                                              WHAT’S REALLY AT THE CORE OF THIS.
IF HE COULD          INT 7      02:04:48:23   MYSELF? WOULD I GO BACK AND DO ANYTHING
DO IT AGAIN…                                  DIFFERENTLY? YEAH. I THINK THAT I WOULDN’T
                                              HAVE SPENT SO MUCH TIME WORRYING ABOUT
                                              TYING EVERYBODY TOGETHER IN THE MORE
                                              MODERN TIME. HOWEVER, HOWEVER COMMA,
                                              THERE WAS AN ADVANTAGE TO THAT. BECAUSE
                                              ONE OF THE CRITERIA HAS TO DO WITH
                                              DEFINING THE, WE’LL SAY THE COHESIVENESS
                                              OF THE GROUP. TO SHOW THAT THEY ARE A
                                              GROUP. JUST NOT A BUNCH OF PEOPLE THAT
                                              MAY SHARE SOME ANCESTORY. HOW DO YOU
                                              SHOW THAT? DO THEY ALL BELONG TO SAME
                                              BOWLING LEAGUE? DO THEY ALL LIVE BEHIND
                                              A WALL? OR SOMETHING, I’M BEING A LITTLE
                                              SILLY BUT JUST TO GIVE YOU AN IDEA WHAT I’M
                                              TALKING ABOUT. I DID A STUDY BASED ON ALL
                                              THE INDIVIDUALS THAT I HAD IDENTIFIED AND
                                              THEIR CONNECTIONS WITH WHOM THEY
                                              MARRIED. AND TURNS OUT THAT JUST – OF ALL
                                              THE PEOPLE I COULD IDENTIFY, SAY MOSTLY
RMI                                           THROUGH THE 19TH AND INTO THE 20TH
ENDOGAMNY                                     CENTURY, THERE WAS SOMETHING LIKE 83
PROVED                                        PERCENT, MAYBE EVEN HIGHER, 87 PERCENT OF
COMMUNITY                                     ENDOGAMY. THESE PEOPLE MARRIED EACH
CRITERIA                                      OTHER. THEY STAYED WITHIN THEIR GROUP TO
ALOEN                                         FIND THEIR MATES. AND A HUGE, VERY HIGH



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                            09/03/2011
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                                              PERCENTAGE. SO IF ANYONE SAID THEY DIDN’T
                                              HAVE ANY COHESIVENESS AS A GROUP JUST
                                              THROUGH THAT STATEMENT OUT THE WINDOW.
                                              THAT ALONE WOULD PROVE IT BEYOND ANY
                                              DOUBT. JUST FROM DOING THE GENEOLOGICAL
                                              STUDY AND THEN APPLYING THAT
                                              INFORMATION TO SHOW THE INTER-MARRIAGE
                                              THAT WAS SO HIGH.
                     INT 7      02:06:36:21   WELL, IT WAS, WOULD IT HAVE MADE A
                                              DIFFERENCE? IT WAS PRESENTED AS PART OF THE
                                              EVIDENCE. WE DID A LITTLE TABLE.
                     INT 7      02:07:09:08   I DIDN’T KNOW WALTER AS WELL AS, BECAUSE HE
                                              WAS COMING IN AS CHIEF… I DON’T REMEMBER
                                              NOW IF IT WAS… NO, NO. BECAUSE RED BONE WAS
                                              STILL CHIEF WHEN THEY GOT THE REJECTION. THE
                                              DECISION. WALTER I DID MEET SUBSEQUENTLY ON
                                              A FEW MEETINGS WHERE THINGS WERE, WHAT ARE
                                              WE GOING TO DO NOW? AND WHAT ABOUT THE
                                              APPEAL? AND SO FORTH. ANYHOW, I’M SORRY. I
                                              INTERRUPTED YOUR QUESTION.
NEW YORKER           INT 7      02:07:48:05   PROBABLY WHEN I READ, THE LAST TIME I
ARTICLE                                       THOUGHT ABOUT THE RAMAPO WAS PROBABLY
                                              WHEN I READ THAT AWFUL PIECE IN THE NEW
                                              YORKER ABOUT THE MURDER OR THE KILLING,
                                              YOU KNOW. AND THE DIFFICULTIES THERE. IT
                                              SAID VERY LITTLE ABOUT SOME OF THE MORE
                                              IMPORTANT THINGS ABOUT THEIR HISTORY AND
                                              THEIR GROUP AND SO FORTH.
HOW HE IS            INT 7      02:08:08:21   WELL IT CERTAINLY FOCUSED ON THIS INCIDENT
REMINDED OF                                   WHERE SOMEONE WAS JAILED AND SOMEONE WAS
THE CASE                                      KILLED AND THERE WAS SOME QUESTION ABOUT
                                              HOW THE POLICE HANDLED IT. THERE WAS A
                                              LITTLE BIT OF HISTORY ABOUT THESE SOMEWHAT
                                              STRANGE ISOLATED PEOPLE. I THINK THERE WAS
                                              VERY LITTLE ABOUT THEIR ATTEMPTS FOR
                                              RECOGNITION WITH THE BIA. WHEN I GO UP TO
                                              MY UPSTATE PLACE, I USUALLY DON’T TAKE
                                              THE THRUWAY. BECAUSE IT’S MORE EFFICIENT
                                              TO GO ANOTHER ROUTE, BUT WHEN I DO GO
                                              THROUGH SUFFREN AND I LOOK OVER AND I SEE
                                              – I MEAN, THAT’S A REMINDER. JUST READING
                                              SOMETHING ABOUT, IN THE NEW YORK TIMES,
                                              SOMETHING ABOUT A TRIBE OR ABOUT A
                                              CASINO OR ABOUT, I DON’T SEE SO MUCH IN THE
                                              PAPER ABOUT GROUPS SEEKING RECOGNITION,
                                              BUT YOU KNOW THAT ALWAYS BRINGS UP THAT.


   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                            09/03/2011
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IN                   INT 7      02:09:22:20   YOU’VE ASKED WHAT’S AT STAKE FOR THEM? AND
CONCLUSUON                                    WHAT’S MY CONNECTION WITH WHAT’S AT STAKE
                                              FOR THEM? I CAN’T REALLY SPEAK FOR THEM. I
                                              EXCEPT WHAT I SORT OF FELT IN GETTING IN THIS.
                                              I MEAN INITIALLY WHAT WAS AT STAKE FOR ME?
                                              WOW! THIS IS SOMETHING DIFFERENT AND
                                              INTERESTING AND A LONG TERM PROJECT!
                                              MONEY! IT WASN’T A HUGE AMOUNT OF MONEY. I
                                              WAS PAID VERY MODESTLY. AND I WASN’T
                                              CHARGING A LOT FOR MY SERVICES THEN, OR NOT
                                              AS MUCH AS I PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE OR COULD
                                              HAVE, BUT THAT’S ANOTHER MATTER. YEAH I WAS
                                              SORT OF PULLED IN BECAUSE THESE ATTORNEYS,
                                              SOME WERE VERY NICE, AND MADE ME FEEL
                                              GOOD. YEAH, I COULD USE SOMETHING STEADY
                                              AND IT WAS SOMETHING I WANTED TO LEARN
                                              MORE ABOUT. I’D NEVER HEARD OF THESE
                                              PEOPLE. AND I SAID, YEAH I CAN DO THAT. WHEN
                                              IT WAS LAID OUT WHAT WAS NEEDED. THAT’S
                                              WHAT I DO. I HADN’T DONE IT FOR AN INDIAN
                                              GROUP OR PEOPLE SEEKING RECOGNITION. BUT
                                              IN TERMS OF THE TRIBE ITSELF, WHAT WAS IN IT
                                              FOR THEM? I GOT TO KNOW A FEW OF THEM. I
                                              WENT TO SOME OF THE POW WOWS AND
                                              FUNCTIONS AND MET HUGE AMOUNTS, HUGE
                                              NUMBERS OF THEM. BUT REALLY WAS JUST A
                                              SMALL GROUP THAT I GOT TO KNOW FAIRLY
                                              WELL. YOU KNOW, YOUR MIND WANDERS AND
                                              YOU THINK THEY’RE TRYING TO GET
                                              SOMETHING TO BECOME RICH, TO BECOME
                                              FAMOUS, TO BECOME WHATEVER. BUT THERE
                                              WAS DEFINITELY, AT LEAST AMONG SOME OF
                                              THEM THAT I TALKED TO, THE ONES THAT I
                                              CAN’T TALK ABOUT, I REALLY DON’T KNOW. IT’S
                                              NOT THAT I WOULD SAY ALL THEY CARE ABOUT
                                              IS MAKING MONEY. BUT I THINK THEY REALLY
                                              WANTED TO GET OUT BEYOND THIS AWFUL
                                              STIGMA OF WHAT THEY WERE, WHAT THEY
                                              WERE ALL ABOUT, WHAT THEY WERE TRYING
                                              TO DO. AND SEEKING A BETTER SITUATION FOR
                                              THEMSELVES, THEIR DESCENDANTS. RISING TO
                                              THE FIGHT AGAINST THOSE WHO WOULD NOT
                                              WANT THEM TO HAVE RECOGNITION. NOT WANT
                                              THEM TO HAVE A BETTER SITUATION. ITS
                                              ALMOST AS IF, WELL, IF WE CAN KEEP THEM AT
                                              WHAT THEY ARE, WE CAN CONTINUE THE



   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                             09/03/2011
KOTP- INTV W/ ETP (TAPE #: )                                     30


                                              STORY, IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. I WAS TRYING
                                              TO THINK OF AN ANALOGY. IF WE TOOK AWAY
                                              SOMETHING THAT WE REALLY LIKED TO PICK ON…
                                              YOU KNOW…
FUTURE OF            INT 7      02:12:10:09   IN A HUNDRED YEARS ARE THEY STILL HERE?
RMI                                           WELL, THE SENSE THESE PEOPLE – AS LONG AS
                                              GLOBAL WARMING OR SOME TERRIBLE BOMB OR
                                              SOMETHING DOESN’T TAKE – ANNIHILATE US ALL,
                                              THE ASSUMPTION IS THAT WE WILL… WILL THEY
                                              STILL HAVE AN IDENTITY AS A GROUP? I HOPE
                                              SO. I DON’T KNOW. WILL THEY EVER HAVE
                                              FEDERAL RECOGNITION? BASED ON THE WAY
                                              THINGS ARE KIND OF WRITTEN AND
                                              EVERYTHING TODAY MOST PEOPLE WOULD SAY
                                              IT’S PROBABLY NOT POSSIBLE. BUT I THINK
                                              THERE IS SOME HOPE. I THINK FOR THEM IT’S
                                              IMPORTANT THAT THEY HAVE THE
                                              RECOGNITION OUTSIDE THE FEDERAL
                                              RECOGNITION. SO THEY’RE NOT GOING TO SAY
                                              OH, WE’RE PICKING UP; WE’RE FOLDING OUR
                                              TENTS BECAUSE WE DIDN’T GET THE FEDERAL
                                              RECOGNITION SO THEREFORE THE FIGHT IS
                                              OVER. WE CAN JUST BECOME ORDINARY
                                              CITIZENS; WE DON’T HAVE TO BE A GROUP
                                              ANYMORE. BUT I THINK IT’S TELLING THAT
                                              THEY HAVE CONTINUED TO KEEP THAT
                                              COHESIVENESS, TO KEEP THEIR… TO KEEP
                                              FIGHTING FOR THEIR IDENTITY AS A GROUP AND
                                              EVERYTHING. THAT THEY BELIEVE IN AS THEIR
                                              GROUP AND STAND FOR SOMETHING. THAT’S
                                              REALLY GREAT. AND THAT MUST BE DIFFICULT.
                                              BECAUSE THE NEGATIVITY IS STILL OUT THERE
                                              AND WILL CONTINUE. EVEN IF THEY HAD
                                              GOTTEN FEDERAL RECOGNITION. BECAUSE WE
                                              KNOW SOME OF THE RECOGNIZED TRIBES STILL
                                              HAVE THIS ANTI-INDIAN GROUP… WHATEVER.
                                              [END]




   Transcribed by: Ryan Hurst                                            09/03/2011

				
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