East-hist-msg - 81710 Histories of the East Kingdom in the SCA .rtf

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					East-hist-msg – 8/17/10
Histories of the East Kingdom in the SCA.

NOTE: See also the files: SCA-hist1-msg, SCA-stories1-msg, placenames-msg,
vanity-plates-msg, you-know-msg, border-stories-msg, AEthel-hist-msg.


This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have
collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date
back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These
files are available on the Internet at:

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with
separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes
extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed
to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make
no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these
messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time.
If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at

The East never recovers from anything. Each new Great Screaming Control
Issue just moves the others further backward in the baggage train.
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika

From: salley at (David Salley)
Subject: Re: Gay Consort.
Date: 28 Jul 94 21:43:53 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

Kenit McGregor
> Say a gentleman wins the crown tourney (if your local group goes for them)
> and instead of wanting a lady to sit with him as King/Queen, he wishes for a
> male friend to sit with him. (please no joke about King/Queen, grin).

It's been tried. First of all, you have to declare who you're fighting for
_before_ you fight in the Crown or Coronet Tourney. When this occurred during
the reign of Prince Yngvar, here in AEthelmearc, Yngvar publicly told him,
"If it's okay with the BoD, it's okay with me." It was NOT okay with the
BoD. To quote the response, "One biological male, one biological female,
we don't care who fights for who." Which also takes care of your second
                                                        - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat         : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Internet    : salley at
USnail-net : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029

From: fridrikr at (tom irelanddelfs)
Subject: Re: guatemala
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 12:32:58 GMT

ALBAN at delphi.COM writes:

>Peter G. Rose | Azelin, of Wishford Hall asks:
>>Just out of curiosity, who or what is the Captain-
>>general of Guatamala, and what's he/she/it doing
>>at the bottom of the EOP?
>Well, son, many, many years ago, far away in the
>mists of memory of our forefathers, yea, verily,
>further than the memories of man runneth to the
>, ah, well, about 15 years ago, there
>was a MidRealm Crown Tourney. One of the entrants
>(I believe it was Naitan? Nathan? My spelling has
>gone downhill with my memory...) had very recently
>gotten back to the States from an extended tour of
>duty with a certain military group in Guatemala (in
>other words, damned if I can remember which
>group). Crown Tourney, the day he entered, was
>particularly hot and humid, to the point where a lot
>of the fighters were panting, sweating, and
>generally suffering. A couple even had to drop out
>of the tourney from heat prostration (not actually
>"drop", but it did come close...) Our hero, Nathan,
>having survived that type of weather for the
>previous year or two, thought it was wonderful; he
>had no trouble staying in, and in fact enjoyed the
>temps and humidity so much he actually *won*.
>During the course of his princedom, and later his
>kingship, he, ummm, suffered? enjoyed? lots of
>shtick about why he'd won. This is why, to this day,
>the MidRealm claims Guatemala as its own, and
>why there are occasional references to the Road to
>Guatemala. I believe Nathan is also the C-G of
>Guatemala for this reason.

>alban, who thinks there should be a book of sca-
>related stories such as these. we need to get our
>*own* history back. anyone wanna hear why the
>people in the barony of three rivers used to toast,
>at every feast, "to the queen's moustache"?

Oh, Alban, you were told BAD information. In the East, also many years
ago (16? I know I was there!) there lived one Algernon Hartesmond,
seneschal of Concordia, defender of the faith, slayer of the evil James
the Usurper - but that's another story - and, after a bit, Peace Corp
volunteer in, guess where, yep you got it. Anyway, upon his imminent
departure the Crown awarded him the title you have so neatly lifted for

Edited by Mark S. Harris           East-hist-msg             Page 2 of 24
Nathan. It still appears at the end of the EK Precedence March - so
there's a fossilized artifact for you. And you can ask him (Algernon)


From: steffan at world.std.COM (Steven H Mesnick)
Subject: Capt.-Gen. of Guatemala
Date: 31 Jul 1994 23:37:51 -0400

This comes up up regularly. Maybe we need an FAQ on it %^) ....

Azelin asks what the Captaincy-General of Guatemala is. This is
traditionally the very last entry on the Eastern Order of Precedence.

Baron (then Lord) Algernon Hartesmond was a well-known Easterner. He was
the founder of Concordia-of-the-Snows (Albany, NY), a Hordesman, and a bard
of note. And then he disappeared, having joined a mundane order called the
Peace Corps and gone on a mission far to the South, to a place called

One day, he returned, and appeared at the Court of the King of the East,
the renowned Gyrth Oldcastle. Gyrth was pleased to see his friend and
subject, and asked him where he had been, and on what business. Algernon
told him he had been far to the South, in lands claimed by none of the
Laurel kings (of which there were but five at the time).

Now, Gyrth was (and is) a most wise and learned man, and he knew that these
lands had of old been claimed by the King of Spain, who had placed them
under a viceroy, styled the Captain-General of Guatemala (for such was the
whole land known in those days, which is now many sovereign nations). And
he knew that the office had been in abeyance for many long years. He
therefore determined to assert his claim to the lands his subject had
explored, and called the Captaincy-General out of abeyance in his own
right, naming Algernon to that office.

Algernon resigned the office at the coronation of Siegfried I of glorious
memory, but the office remains in the gift of the Eastern crown -- the
claims of the Outlands to all lands south of Ansteorra notwithstanding.
(Sounds to me like a good excuse for a war....<grin>).

Baron Algernon Hartesmond has not been seen in the Knowne Worlde for
many years, but the rune of his philosopher's engine is thus:
dryfoo at .

      Steffan ap Cennydd
      Sometime Royal Eastern Historian

From: Kim.Salazar%em at
Subject: Re: SCAthian authors/artists
Date: 29 Aug 1994 15:43:54 -0400

     Rumor from the past:
     The Hagar the Horrible's artist was rumored to be SCA-literate
     after a series of strips circa 1978, which contained a Knight of
     Incredible Size and Prowess, who just happened to be sporting the
     arms (if the rumor is to be believed) of the immortal Sir Paul of

Edited by Mark S. Harris           East-hist-msg            Page 3 of 24

     Other rumored SCA-friends (and probably members) of the time:
     The brothers Hildebrandt, illustrators of SF/fantasy fame. I
     believe they did the art for the original Sword of Shinerra (sp).
     At the time many gentles swore that those illustrations contained
     familiar faces.

     And finally: If the C.S. Friedman, active SF/fantasy writer, is
     indeed the same Celia S. Friedman I roomed with at college
     (highly likely!), she was known as Lady Adrienne of Huntington.
     Along with Lady Ariel she co-founded Fenmere, (Brandeis
     University group circa 1974-1979). She also fenced for the
     college team, and was of the early popularizers of fencing in the

     Kim Brody Salazar/Ianthe d'Averoigne, OR, OL
     Forever a Carolingian   salazark%em at

From: folo at (F.L. Watkins)
Subject: Re: newcomer querys
Date: 26 Sep 1994 22:38:30 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

Back in the reign of Finnvarr and Caellyn, the curia set out 500
as the beginning date. It was never set into law and has, for the
most part, been neglected.

I still think it's a good idea.

Yrs, Folo
Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo at
Baron Wurm Wald (MidRealm) - Commander Baldwin's (NWTA)

From: Neil Maclay <nmaclay at>
Subject: Re: History of SCA fighting
Date: 18 Nov 1994 17:43:21 GMT
Organization: Planning Systems, Inc. (PSI)

In article <1994Nov17.155159.37047 at> Shop
Smart...Shop S-Mart!, 00pfpogue at writes:
>       I'd like to hear, through posts or email, what opinions all of you
on the
> bridge have on this subject, whether the persons named be Society-wide
> phenomenons or Kingdom legends. All I ask is that you generall believe
> this person had something of an influence on the way your entire
kingdom or the
> Society itself fought. I'm hoping to gain at least a general idea of
how our
> unique martial art came to evolve over the years.
In the East Kingdom I believe that Mistress Morgan Allandris (SP?) was
important in the early development of organized group tactics. Also in
the East Sir Sigfried von Holstearn is famous as an individual fighter
and as a leader.

Edited by Mark S. Harris           East-hist-msg            Page 4 of 24
In Atlantia Sir Gyrth Oldcastle developed a distinct sword and shield
style that has proven to be very successful in tournament fighting over
the years. He has also written a small book describing his style. Does
anyone know if this book is still available and how to get it? If so
please post.

Also in Atlantia, Sir Strykar, Sir Baschamp Paul, and Sir Steffan of
Wolfshaven developed the "three stooges style" of fighting. This style
includes a highly developed style of two sword and of greatsword fighting
emphasizing footwork and circularity of movement. These elements also
dominate the "stoogic" styles of sword and shield.

I would consider Sir Gyrth and Sir Strykar the two main theorists of
fighting in Atlantia though their are many others who teach fighters to
fight well.

Master Malcolm MacMalcolm, Marshal
mka Neil Maclay
Barony of Storvic - Atlantia
mka Wash. D.C. area

Subject: Re: History of SCA fighting
Organization: University at Buffalo
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 22:58:37 GMT

      Morgan Elandris (AKA Our Lady Saint Morgan Elandris, but if you
tell her I said that she'll rip my head off) was instrumental in teaching
the East how to fight as a unit, especially the Rhydderich Hael barony.
She also trained a whole slew of knights, including a Duke or two (Hanno,
for one...) She's also in the real-life military, has horses, and does all
sorts of cool stuff. And makes nice cloaks. I think I'll make her a Peer
once I win Crown :)


From: David Schroeder <ds4p+ at>
Subject: Re: SCA Authors <long>
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 21:36:27 -0500
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Margaret Fraser, author of the Sister Frevisse mysteries,
(The Novice's Tale, the Outlaw's Tale, her new book, The Bishop's Tale,
et cetera) is a pseudonym for Mary Monica Pulver and a co-author
whose name I always forget (help me out Nordskogen folks!).

And the brothers Hildebrandt attended the coronation of Gyrth
and Melisande in the ancient days of the East (I was site autocrat).
I'm not sure if they came to any other events, though.

My best -- Bertram

From: zkessin at (Zach)
Subject: Re: Odin Akbar

Edited by Mark S. Harris             East-hist-msg          Page 5 of 24
Date: 30 Dec 1994 10:26:22 GMT
Organization: Wilder Internet Gateway, Boston, MA

Akbar was also the an early King of the East. He bears the distiction
of being one of the few (if not the only one) to have been prince
while his biological father was king. (And Vice versa)

Collector of odd Trivia

From: salley at (David Salley)
Subject: Re: A historical perspective...
Summary: Myrkfaellin
Date: 23 Apr 95 19:04:34 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

[Hal posting from Dorothy's account....] writes:
>         (from _The Page_, September AS IX)
> At the July meeting, actions included the passing of the above;
> confirmation of Richard of Alsace as Seneschal of the Middle Kingdom;
> a provision that a member of the Order of the Laurel may petition to
> receive a Pelican in its stead, should he so desire; note taken that
> T.I. #28 was ready to be mailed; and the acceptance of new branch, to
> be called Myrkfaellin (in which Kingdom they don't say).

The Dominion of Myrkfaellin is within the Kingdom of the East, Principality of
AEthelmearc. Note that I say `within', not `part of'. It was Myrkfaellin
that caused the BoD to re-write a lot of their New Group Procedures.

The petition was written in authentic Old Icelandic. One of their members
earned his doctorate in Old Icelandic studies. No translation was provided.
The document stated they were in fealty to King Osborne(?) of the East,
not to the King of the East in general, just Osborne! When he stepped down,
the Dominion proclaimed that they were NOT in fealty to anyone, they were
analogous to the Vatican City in Italy, they were surrounded by, but NOT
a part of the East Kingdom. Events in Myrkfaellin do tend to be `interesting'
;-) ;-) If you're not from the Dominion, your feast token is a passport.
If the King wants to come, he has to negotiate as if visiting a foreign
power. I'm sure Purple will fill in details I missed.

                                                       - Dagonell
                              (who was once given the Queen of
                              the East as a present by John the
                              Pell while in Myrkfaellin ;-)

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat         : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Internet    : salley at (Please use this, reply may not work.)
USnail-net : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029

From: fridrikr at (Thomas W Delfs)
Subject: Re: Longest-active SCA members
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 22:19:44 GMT

djheydt at (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:

Edited by Mark S. Harris           East-hist-msg            Page 6 of 24
>In article <1995Jun12.122422 at>,
>The Morgenstern Under the Mountain <morgenstern at> wrote:
>>...Who, as far as anyone knows, is the longest-running member of
>>the SCA? .... Are any of the attendees of the original
>>event of May, 1966, still active at all in the SCA?


>These are all in the West Kingdom.

>I still see Mistress Elfreida of Greenwalls (Marion Zimmer Bradley)
>fairly often, but she doesn't do SCA any more. But she still lives
>in Berkeley.

>Any Dinosaurs still active in other Kingdoms?

>Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin            Dorothy J. Heydt
>Mists/Mists/West              UC Berkeley
>Argent, a cross forme'e sable             djheydt at

I suspect that at 19+ years, both Baroness Daedra MacBeth a Gryphon and I
rank as "very ancient newbies" of the East. Count Sir Jehan de la Marche
and Sir Garanhir of Ness are still active in AEthelmearc, and Duke
Asbjorn has been known to show at practices and events in Sterlyng Vayle
(Binghamton, NY) from time to time.


From: aa101159 at (Virginia Gray)
Subject: Re: Longest-active SCA members
Date: 13 Jun 1995 16:47:17 GMT
Organization: Univ. of South Carolina, Columbia

Let's not forget Sir Trude (or is it Trudy?), who's first event was A.S.I
anniversary. I know she lives in East kingdom, but I'm not sure exactly
where. I met her at an Atlantian event a couple weekends ago.

Ldy Rachel Wallace

Subject: Re: Longest-active SCA members
From: una at (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 95 09:11:25 EDT

fridrikr at (Thomas W Delfs) writes:
> I suspect that at 19+ years, both Baroness Daedra MacBeth a Gryphon and I
> rank as "very ancient newbies" of the East. Count Sir Jehan de la Marche
> and Sir Garanhir of Ness are still active in AEthelmearc, and Duke
> Asbjorn has been known to show at practices and events in Sterlyng Vayle
> (Binghamton, NY) from time to time.
      Respected friend:
      Hiya, kid! I celebrated my 21st SCA anniversary last december 27th-
and I _think_ Jarl Aelfwine has me beat.
      The East used to have "Sabre-tooth Tygers"... people who were active

Edited by Mark S. Harris              East-hist-msg          Page 7 of 24
here before the first king of the East was crowned. Marion of Edwinstowe
_might_ be one.

                                Yours in service to the Society-
                                (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F.
                                Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA
                                Una Wicca (That Pict)

From: salley at (David Salley)
Subject: Re: The Status of Myrkfaelen, is it really ruled by Aethelmarc?
Date: 23 Jun 95 12:46:29 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

Viscount Edward Zifran of Gendy, KSCA, OL, OP, ETC (E. F. MORRILL) writes:
> (Bryan Maloney) writes:
> {previous remarks deleted}
>>Myrkfaelen is most certainly NOT part of the Principality of Aethelmarc, nor
>>is it in any way part of the East Kingdom. Myrkfaelen is an Independent
>>Dominion, holding alliegence to no Crown, nor King, nor Prince.

> Allow me to suggest, that if that is true, Then why is it it seems, that
> no-one in Mykfaelan seems to turn down an East Kingdom award, if one is
> offered? The reality is that Mykfaelan "Is"part of the East.

Are you kidding? It took six men to carry John the Pell into court and
force him to his knees in front of the king to be made a member of the
Chivalry. And that was _after_ he had turned it down FOUR times! And
he still chose Master rather than swear fealty.

                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat         : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Internet    : salley at (Please use this, reply may not work.)
USnail-net : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029

From: mittle at (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: The Status of Myrkfaelen, is it really ruled by Aethelmarc?
Date: 23 Jun 1995 11:21:39 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

Greetings from Arval!

Orlando Alvarez wrote:

> In an earlier post, Supillilumous forgot to mention that John the Pell
> turned down a Court Barony (in the same event that Sup.. turned down his
> OTC) for similar reasons.

I was court herald at that court, and I would swear that it was an AoA that
Sup. refused.

Cariadoc quoted someone (sorry, I missed the name), talking about the
Myrkfaelinn charter:

> I would think then that you might remind those folks that the Charter
> also says, in one form or another, that they shall hold those lands

Edited by Mark S. Harris           East-hist-msg            Page 8 of 24
> until, and only until the Crown that granted it shall arise again.

No, I'm afraid that's just local interpretation of the charter. All the
charter actually said was that Myrkfaelinn swore allegiance to the king,
Asbjorn, rather than to the kingdom.

Dagonell wrote:

: Are you kidding? It took six men to carry John the Pell into court and
: force him to his knees in front of the king to be made a member of the
: Chivalry. And that was _after_ he had turned it down FOUR times!

I'm pretty certain, Dagonell, that legend has been inflating this story.        I
don't think it was four times. It might have been once. But he was
certainly carried bodily into court, and not for the first time.


From: mittle at (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Resignations & procedures
Date: 2 Aug 1995 15:56:56 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

Greetings from Arval!   Mikjal wrote:

>   Unfortunately, the Board has a rather shaky record WRT to dealing with
>   the "Society" side of things. Matters that *should* be dealt with in a
>   limited, localized fashion seem to inevitably lead to intrusive,
>   Society-wide restrictions, regulations, and prohibitions, affecting large
>   numbers of participants completely unrelated with the original
>   incident. ... While I recognize the desireability of having a "court of
>   last resort" similar to the U.S. Supreme Court, that "court" should also
>   be able (and willing) to say to the involved parties "Not within our
>   scope or jurisdiction - case returned to lower court for decision".

To be honest, the Board does that in many cases.     Not often enough, but it

One problem is that the Board, by its own policy, prefers to deal with
"issues" rather than specific problems. The unfortunate result of this
apparently-admirable policy is that when a director encounters a problem
that he feels _needs_ Board action, he has to cast it as a general issue,
formulate a general solution, and apply that solution globally, even if the
problem is isolated and specific. I call this problem "using a sledge
hammer where a jeweler's mallet will do." When Sedalia was EK seneschal,
she was particularly guilty of this error. For example, early in her
tenure she was faced with a problem with a local seneschal. She felt that
the seneschal really needed to be removed from office, for a variety of
reasons. But she felt that she could not simply remove him; she needed a
Policy. So she instituted a kingdom-wide term limit on local seneschals,
with complicated procedures for applying for a waiver. Every branch in the
kingdom had to deal with the fallout from a problem in a single shire.

A second, and more fundamental problem, is that the SCA's structure, by its
nature and by statute, does not allow _anyone_ except the Board to make a
binding decision. Corpora tells us that _any_ decision can be appealed all
the way to the Board. And so, of course, people appeal. This has two
negative effects. First, simple local problems are escalated to the
national level when they ought to be handled closer to home. Second,

Edited by Mark S. Harris             East-hist-msg             Page 9 of 24
officers can act recklessly without having to worry about taking
responsibility for their actions; they can always blame someone else for
not making use of the appeal proccess.


From: levey at (Don Levey)
Subject: Re: Worst Garb or Armor????
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 15:34:54 GMT

In article <3v81tf$e3 at>,
IMAsgard <imasgard at> wrote:
>   A collection of the worst armor in the Known world can be seen in
>Trimaris, in the possession of Duke Erin. That is to say, he is the
>curator of the museum of "horrible helms". This collection was started
>     HRH Baldar/A. Cooley
Nothing (in my mind, at least) would compare to the official
"Great Helm of Carolingia." This helm has an ancient and venerable
history, most of which I am sure to get wrong (but that's the fun with
legends, isn't it?).

Seems in the early days of the East, when there were but two groups
(Ostgardr and Carolingia), some folks from Carolingia wanted to go
to a real tournament. Now, they had heard about this fighting stuff,
and with great eagerness prepared for the long trip down to NY from
Boston. Since they had heard that the fighters hit each other with
something bamboo-like, they did a bit of practicing and also made
armor. The crowning piece, if you will, was the afforementioned
helm: lovingly crafted from state-of-the-art fibreglass at MIT.
Then it was padded with open-cell foam, and brought to NY for the

The Marshal in charge looked at this thing, and decided that perhaps
it was not safe. After all, fibreglass is likely to crack, isn't it?
He therefore put said helm on the ground and gave it a good whack with
his rataan. Sproing!! as it flew away. It was retrieved, and whacked
again. Sproing!! as it flew once again. And lo, it did not crack, for
he did not count on the skill of the Mitgaard craftsman. With a shrug,
he passed it, but seeing the sort of abuse both the helm and head inside
it would need to take, the wearer exercised the better part of valor
and chose instead to watch the tournament.

I'm sure that there are corrections to be made here. However, the helm
itself (which I have seen and indeed worn) would deserve a place in such
a museum. What it lack in aesthetic offensiveness is more than made
up by the concept.


Subject: Re: Cloved Fruit
From: una at (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 10:18:11 EST

Edited by Mark S. Harris           East-hist-msg            Page 10 of 24
gl8f at fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes:
> Mary Spila <mms6824 at> wrote:
> >Could/would someone PLEASE give me a brief history of how the game of passin
> >cloved fruit was introduced to the SCA. I am doing a brief class on the gam
> >(emphasizing "Don't be a jerk") and would like some more information than wh
> >I already know.
> I've never heard anyone claim that they knew the origin of this game,
> other than vague rumblings that it originated 15+ years ago in
> Carolingia. It does seem to have died out in Atlantia. There was one
> attempt to revive it last weekend, but I don't think it was very well
> received. And my lady threw out this lovely pomander that the queen
> herself gave me, the nerve!
> Gregory Blount

      Respected friend:
      I know the origins. It was invented out of whole cloth. I did it.*
I'm sorry.
      (check out the Feb. issue of Re-creating History magazine for an
article on more authentic kissing games.) }:->
      By the way, it started in Canton of the Towers, which is a canton of,
but is two days older than, Carolingia.

*(Lisa Goldenstar helped.)

                                  Honour, known societally as
                                  Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf; or
                                  Una Wicca (That Pict)

From: djl at (Don Luby)
Subject: Re: Pennsic War Points
Date: 13 Mar 1996 12:39:29 -0500
Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PA

DAVID RAZLER (david.razler at wrote:
>   Seriously, I question the need and the desirability to allow any
> area to succeed from the East.

  If you lived in AEthelmearc, you'd understand why there has been a
need, for some years now, for us to go our own way, separate from the
East. It's unfortunate that some gentles in the remainder of the East
wish us to stay, but it's well past the point of happy reconciliation.

>   We have lost much of our land already,
>   and the establishment of a couple of additional principalities to cover
>   the entire kingdom should ease these insane quests to chop apart our
>   tradition.

  Here's fallacy: there is no one singular 'Eastern tradition',
especially in the places that have (or want to) go kingdom. There may
be a 'core' Eastern tradition in the areas in a direct line from
Bhakail to Ostgardr to almost-Carolingia (who have their own
traditions, which pre-date the East's), but even along there there is
much variation, the farther you get from Otsgardr. This is largely
because when there groups got started, they played their own way
because they were so far away from the center of the kingdom that they
*had* to do that to survive, even if they amalgamated bits of core

Edited by Mark S. Harris             East-hist-msg           Page 11 of 24
Eastern tradition later when they got more active on a kingdom-wide
  As an example (based on a conversation had a post-revel after Ice
Dragon this past weekend): When most of the 'founding fathers of
AEthelmearc' joined the SCA, ~20 years ago, there was a total of one
knight in all of what is now AEthelmearc (and he moved out of kingdom
shortly thereafer), let alone peers of any other kind.
  Travel time to the 'central East' (Ostgardr, Bhakail, Carolingia)
was 8+ hrs by car, and so there was little direct contact between the
groups, except by various brave individuals. Once there were a few
chivalry (and royal peers), this opened up more, but there was a
strong local idea of what the SCA was like, independent of core
Eastern tradition, and since that was what was believed by the (then-)
old-timers, that's what the newbies were brought up to believe as
  So what you have is 5 - 10 SCA generations' worth of AEthelmearc
tradition, which is stronger in AEthelmearc than core Eastern
tradition, and is a main reason why we want / need to have our own
kingdom ("We are our own nationality; we deserve our own nation" -
Benj. Franklin).

> The East has lost far too much of its populace and land over the years.

  And it's happening to every other large (geographical) kingdom in
the known world: Lochac is next in line (I think) after AEthelmearc,
especially due to geographic distances; the Middle will lose
Ealdormere and possibly Northshield after that; and Atenvelt may lose
Artemesia. Not to mention all of the proto-principailty movements all
over the known world.
  BTW, except for Drachenwald, which had been waiting since its
inception to go kingdom, and went as soon as they had the native
population and total numbers, the East has only ever 'lost' Atlantia,
and that was 15 yrs ago!

> I can see it now, first AEthelmearch, then Carolingia, etc.
> until the East consists entirely of the current Wetlands Confederation.

  Actually, from what I've been led to believe, if the Northern Region
principality movement ever gets off the ground, and does go kingdom,
the East will then consist of the Phila - NYC - Hudson Valley
corridor, with some bits off to the side in both diretions (Delaware,
eastern PA, NJ, eastern upstate NY, Connecticut). While that's a far
cry from what the size of the East used to be (or will used have
been), you're still talking about the most densely populated part of
the country, and it will still have a population to rival any kingdom
in the known world.

> Of course, if we would do away with the current method of selecting our
> royalty, it might reduce the desire of those who want their own king (or
> mainly, to *be* king), etc. to divide the land.

  AEthelmearc's desire for freedom has little to do with this, it has
largely due to the fact the East is too big, and being out on the
relative fringes, we feel the effects from it even more. And even
then, it'll still be a problem for both of us: Now, from Port Oasis
to Ruantallan is a ~35 hr drive; afterwards, Port Oasis to Coppertree
will still be 15+ hours, and Blak Rose to Ruanatallan will still be
20+ hours.

>             In Service to the East and crying Death! to its enemies
>                         both internal and external,

Edited by Mark S. Harris           East-hist-msg           Page 12 of 24
>                          Aleksandr the Traveller
>                       [david.razler at]
>                      A "Free" AEthelmearc be Damned

Don Luby                                         Magariki Katsuichi no Koredono
djl at                                                CSC, CM,
CTC                              Yama-kaminari-ryu
Pittsburgh, PA                    Cour d'Or, Debatable Lands, AEthelmearc, East

From: Tom Courtney <vis at>
Subject: Re: Kingdom Annexation!
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 17:55:09 +0000
Organization: Living Paper

Morgoth wrote:
> What keeps Baronies from moving over to another Principality or Kingdom?

Only the will of the residents. It happens occasionally. Myrkwood moved from the
East to Atlantia, where it eventually became Lochmere (I'm abreviating a lot of
history here.)

Tom Courtney
aka Vissevald Selkirksson

From: greycat at (Greycat Sharpclaw)
Subject: Re: Kingdom Annexation!
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 00:42:53 GMT

Emrys sends greetings onto all upon this bridge:

There is an allegation that Morgoth <morgoth at> wrote:

>What is to keep a person from winning more than one crown tourney, one in
>say AnTir and another in the West, and then to combine the Two Crown, how
>far could he/she do it, and what keeps it from happening? and Why not?

Well, don't most kingdoms have residency requirements for their
monarchs? Of course, moving after crown complicates things.

Also, in the East, the law would forbid a King/Queen or Crown
Prince/Princess from entering crown. Do other Kingdoms have a
similar law?

Of course, there _was_ the incident that helped make the law.
King Michael of Bedford (of the East) entered then-principality's
Atlantia's first crown tourney, and won. About a month after he
crowned Sigfried as his successor in the East, Sigfried crowned
him to make Atlantia independent.

Lord Emrys Cador               David M. Mann
Barony of Settmour Swamp       greycat at

Edited by Mark S. Harris           East-hist-msg            Page 13 of 24
From: greycat at (Greycat Sharpclaw)
Subject: Re: Bad Crowns
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 1996 04:03:59 GMT
Organization: IDT

robnbrwn at (Robin Brown) wrote:

>In article <588b44$bjd at> Greycat Sharpclaw wrote:
>>It does require all participants to preregister for the tourney (by
>>submitting "letters of intent"), thus a king can bounce an
>>unacceptable fighter before hand, under various provisions.

>What kind of provisions? I mean, obviously, one must be in compliance with
>membership and similar rules, but are the other provisions for exclusion
>written or merely traditional?

Well, as I said in my origional post, I know of no case that this was
done. I do not know that it has occured, but that may only mean that
(1) it is uncommon, and (2) was never widely pubically debated.

It is written that the contestants must "be acceptable to the crown".
But usually this clause is used by the crown to add requirements for
eligibility *beforehand*, beyond those in copora and kingdom law. A
specific rejection of an individual would, as I judge the attitudes of
my fellow Easterners, be seen as an extreme action requiring an
extreme reason.

Any one who has personal knowledge of such a rejection is encouraged
to jump in here.

BTW... there is an old incident in the East where a fighter was
removed during a crown, and replaced in the list. The replacement won
the tourney. There is much Eastern history based on the resulting
controversy, but as I have only stories to go on, I'll not risk
repeating any errors here. But a key point is that this occured
*during* the tourney... it is not a precident (in the East or
elsewhere) for nullifying the result, nor for rejecting a contender.

And there was a crown nullified when the winner was found to not be
legal under the rules. But again, this is a case totally unlike
Atenveldt's current one.

But there was a case of a territorial prince being removed in the
East... naturally that one ended up before the BoD shortly thereafter.
(The king ruled that the Prince had tried to rig Coronet, and
*demanded* abdication, under threat of repeating the demand in open

The BoD - finding the rules on the subject vague - backed the king's
right to make his own interpretation of the (vague) rules. This *may*
serve as precident for the Atenveldt case. I stress "may" - if the
rules here are more precise, there is less room for free
interpretation by the crown.

Lord Emrys Cador               David M. Mann
Barony of Settmour Swamp       greycat at

Edited by Mark S. Harris           East-hist-msg            Page 14 of 24
From: dickeney at (Dick Eney)
Subject: Re: "Indestructable" shields
Date: 24 Jan 1997 12:40:06 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

Bryan J. Maloney <bjm10 at> wrote:
>timbeck at Beck) wrote:
>> coat of gesso. All in all SCA shields work a lot like the historical
>> ones. There are refernces to tourney shields that were built to fall
>Ah, but are they struck full-force with sharp, steel weapons? How to
>simulate the effects of real weapons upon shields when the weapons used
>are rattan and some even padded?

Tamar the Gypsy (sharing account dickeney at here writes:

In the early years of the East Kingdom, a fighter who had really good
shield work caught all his opponents' blows on the same place on the edge
of his round shield; halfway through the tourney, the rattan blows had
"dented" the plywood all the way to the handgrip. This being the early
years, the fighter reversed his grip and held the shield the other way
around. By the end of the tourney, the same had happened again, and the
shield had been cut in two by repeated blows of rattan.
Since then, edge strengthening has been an important part of constructing
a shield.

=Tamar the Gypsy (sharing account dickeney at

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 21:22:06 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at>
Subject: SC - OT - Crown Province

> and I keep reading Adamantius' signature to declare him crown
>prince of Ostgardr.
>Rhiannon Cathaoir-mor
>South Downs, Meridies

Okay, here's the deal. I don't live in a Barony, I live in a Province,
specifically a Crown Province. For practical purposes, in the SCA a
landed Baron is given the land as his fiefdom, to hold for the Crown. A
Crown Province is the Crown's land, held by the Crown, and a
representative of the Crown rules. Instead of having a Baron and
Baroness, we have a Viceroy and Vicereine.

In theory, we're sorta kinda the capital of the East Kingdom, and its
oldest group. Once upon a time, we _were_ the East. In practice, now,
we're pretty much like any other barony.

Maybe someone who actually has been a Prince(ss) or other monarch-y type
can provide corrections or additional info.

A Resident of the Crown _Province_ of Østgardr, in the East Kingdom

Edited by Mark S. Harris           East-hist-msg           Page 15 of 24
Subject: ANST - Fw: [MercInn] Home groujps and fighting for pay.
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 06:56:02 MST
From: "Cody Chezem" <odin at>
To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

----- Original Message -----
From: Blackburn, Eric <eblackburn at>
To: <mercenariesinn at>
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 9:21 AM
Subject: [MercInn] Home groujps and fighting for pay.

>   The Mountain Confederation was formed by a number of fighters in central
>   Pennsylvania when these people were completely ignored by the people on the
>   east coast where most activity was, in those days. (This was before I
>   joined). As the crowned heads of the East Kingdom decided that the
>   inhabitants of Nithgard, Abian Ciac Glas (forigve the spelling) and other
>   groups were not worthy of notice, the founders of Confed decided to return
>   the favor. They sent the word: "You want us to fight for you, you pay us."
>   The word came back, "Fat chance."
>   Things changed after the first few battles. Then the East started making
>   offers. Some years have been good, with lots of beer, ice, firewood and
>   baubles. Other years have been bad, with offers which were insulting. Some
>   kings refused to hire mercenaries from their own kingdom.
>   And awards were fewer, recognition faint, scorn great. When I received my
>   invitation to join Confed, it was phrased as "Do you want to give up any
>   chance for advancement in the SCA?" to which I replied 'Hell yes!"
>   Some years ago, however, Prince Lucan of AEthelmearc gave us our official
>   charter, recognizing us as a free household who owed fealty only to honor.
>   He also made us a, well, "princely" offer to fight for him in the field
>   battle at Pennsic. He wasn't disappointed.
>   Now AEthelmearc is a kingdom.   And we are spread across several kingdoms, as
>   some of us have moved.
>   We have no home group. I do fighter practice with Steltonwald, and
>   occasionally with the Debatable Lands. These fighters realize that we might
>   be on different sides in the next battle, and they tease me about it. I
>   return the favor.

<snip of a particular battle at Pennsic XXVII. see P-hist-msg>

> Jebediah ap Hwyl of the Mountain Confederation

Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 06:54:07 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at>
Subject: Re: SC - troll vs. gate

Stefan li Rous wrote:
> Ok, so do the East Kingdom laws use the word "troll" or "gate"?

I think they use "troll". The justification, last time I saw this
discussed, was that certain terms, among them being "autocrat" and
"trollbooth", were mandated by Corpora (whether this is still the case,
or ever was, I don't know) and while this was considered regrettable, it
wasn't worth making a fuss over _that_ particular issue.

Edited by Mark S. Harris                East-hist-msg         Page 16 of 24

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:54:23 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at>
Subject: Re: SC - Profit was Opinions?

>   Having been a Barony ourselves for nigh in 20 years we have experience
>   with what you are saying and have learnt quite a while ago that "talk"
>   doesnt pay the Piper. Solving this problem was quite easy....reserve
>   with payment. Period. Don't know about other Cantons but this has been
>   the norm here in Ealdormere for as long as I can remember. If in fact
>   this is what you qualify as "lean times" then we have slogged thru this
>   one, as Im sure every area has, a few times. I dont really see this as
>   the lean times but rather a unique setback that doesnt occur often.
>   Micaylah

I believe the Eastern Crown Tourney where the nearly universal tradition
of "the only reservation is a paid reservation" was born was in A.S. IX.


Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 22:04:22 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at>
To: sca-cooks at
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Marzipan roses

Seton1355 at wrote:
> Wow!!!
>>Amalric Blackhart 07/89
>>Argent, goutty de sang, a stag rampant and a chief sable. 03/90
>>SCA: Count 4/1/2000
>>SCA: Knight, Order of Chivalry East 8/18/1994
>>East: Companion of the Tygers Combattant East 7/25/1992
>>SCA: Award of Arms East 5/13/1989
>>SCA: Augmentation of Arms 8/17/1997
>>Atlantia: Companion of the Shark's Tooth 4/5/1997

His Excellency is also the man who challenged me to a duel when I listed the
wrong name instead of his own for contact info on a fighter practice in Ostgardr
(I had already copiously apologized, both to him personally and in the
newsletter), and when I agreed to meet him on the field in the spring, we found
ourselves working together in the kitchen at 12th Night. I was busy removing the
chine bones from 27 whole pork loins (simple: you hold them up in your left
hand, and chop through the rib bones with your Chinese cleaver in your right,
and the spinal bone structure falls off the piece of meat to the sound of your
loudest roar of "TIIIIIIIIIMMBERRRR!!!"). His Excellency watched this for a bit,
appeared to swallow a couple of times, walked over and said, apropos of nothing,
that he hoped I knew he'd been joking about that fight we were supposed to

I imagine he's mellowed some since then.


Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:25:53 -0500
To: sca-cooks at

Edited by Mark S. Harris             East-hist-msg           Page 17 of 24
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] EK Cooks' Guild

>Does anyone know how I can get in touch with the East Kingdom Cook's Guild,
>if such a thing still exists? They have a registered badge, so they must
>have existed at some point, but they're not listed on the EK website.

The East Kingdom Cooks' Guild would have been active in around AS IX
or X, or, rather, prior to. Their charter can be found somewhere in
the Ostgardrian cooking pages at, but it hasn't been
active for a long time. The trouble is that the guild's organization,
works pretty well when your population is a couple of hundred, but
when it exceeds several thousand, its effectiveness wanes a bit.
Looking at the charter now, some of its stated purpose, the ranking
system, etc., seem kind of dated.

What I would rather see installed is an ongoing Collegium with a
group of cooks whose purpose is to be the culinary Triple-A, or, as
Countess Brekke has been known to call them, "Have Knives, Will
Travel". They could keep a database of worked-out recipes, etc.

Ostgardr has, in the past, held well-attended Cook's Collegia, but
sort of dropped the ball when other groups asked to host it (IMO the
response should have been, "Sure, hold a Cook's Collegium, ours is in
May,") and either mismanaged the events or simply never held them.


Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 21:35:26 -0400
From: "Carol Eskesen Smith" <BrekkeFranksdottir at>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Aten Policy: The only reservation is a PAID
      reservation. (long)
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at>

      Ah, the memories this brings back... Manymany years ago I cooked
a Twelfth Night feast in Bakhail, in the East Kingdom. One week before
the feast, we had 90 "reservations", half of them paid. Over 200
people arrived at our door expecting to be fed. The Chief Troll did
check with the head cook (me) at every 10 or 15 people, and I foolishly
thought we could do it. Only 15 more? Ya, sure, we can do it. NOT!
And I did this EVERY TIME! Can anyone say "brain dead"?
      This after an oven fire destroyed half our Pies of Parys the night
before. We were doing roast lamb, in honor of our King (His Grace, Sir
Cariadoc of the Bow), and had a 20-lb lamb in the oven. Let me tell
you all, 20 lb of lamb doesn't go anywhere NEAR as far as 20 lb of
roast pig! And although we made lots more sausage (much of it never
saw casings), we didn't come close to feeding the starving hordes.
     At any rate, as head of the Kingdom Cooks Guild, I made it official
policy that at any event involving the Guild, a phoned reservation
wasn't worth the paper it was written on, and if the reservation didn't
come complete with check, it wasn't a real reservation. By the time
this got published in Pikestaff (the next issue), I was Crown Princess,
so it had a LOT of weight behind it, and became kingdom policy for many
years. It might be a good idea to re-institute it; we do well with it
in Ostgardr, right, Master A?

Brekke (older than dirt)

Edited by Mark S. Harris           East-hist-msg           Page 18 of 24
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius.magister at>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] food on St Val's day
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at>

Also sprach Linda Anderson:
> I don't know the author pilloried earlier but enjoyed the idea that
> no one could figure out how "That accent came from Brooklyn" as
> priceless.

Ah. Back in the old days, when the SCA was a couple of groups on the
West Coast of the US and a group in New York City shortly thereafter,
one of the first things an East Coast SCAdian cook did was go to the
bookshop at the Metropolitan Museum of Art and get a copy of
"Fabulous Feasts". Well-meaning friends would award copies for
birthdays, Christmas gifts, etc., because when people found out about
your weird hobby, that was the only book they could find on the
subject. People began to use stacks of "Fabulous Feasts" to hold up
the coffee table with the broken leg. Made a good doorstop...

It actually has a fair amount of good information on medieval eating
habits, but the adaptations of period recipes are pretty dreadful,
probably because the author didn't (and still doesn't, I'm told)
actually know how to cook, and saw no need, since she was not
specifically catering to the needs of reenactors, _not_ to go for a
rather fanciful approach, one which posits that a drab-looking dish
can be brightened up with a bit of color, so dressing it up with some
shredded red licorice whip candy is an excellent idea. Never mind
that a period cook would have solved this problem, if a problem were
in fact perceived, in a totally different way. There are also some
recipes, allegedly, made up out of whole cloth, as it were, with no
foundation in any extant period recipe.

New York City SCAdians (such as myself, for example) have more reason
than those above to find the lady fairly silly: for years she helped
run the annual Cloisters Medieval Faire (at the Cloisters, the series
of relocated and reconstructed medieval European monasteries now
owned and run by The Metropolitan Museum of Art in uptown Manhattan).
She made herself fairly unpleasant to SCAdians trying to do demos at
that fair, doing things like cancelling parking privileges for
SCAdians at the last minute, so people had to park their cars about a
mile from the fighters' lists and lug their armor in and out. And
then there was the time she cancelled the SCA's entire demo one year
about fifteen minutes before it was scheduled to begin, and decided
to read from Chaucer with E.G. Marshall instead.

She used to hold medieval feasts for various organizations, and
trained her servers, as well as the diners, with the little speech I
paraphrased in my earlier post, about eating with the manifold
extensions to the hands, thah finnngaaaaaahhhs.

She ingratiated herself especially to my lady wife, who, while
enrolled in a class on Chaucer at the City College of New York, was
told by Professor Cosman that nobody without an English heritage (my
wife is of Chinese ancestry) could fully appreciate the subtlety of
Chaucer's language, so taking her class would be a waste of
everyone's time... her own heritage consisting of birth into, and
growing up in, a Polish-speaking Jewish community in Brooklyn, where
her grandfather's name (originally something like Pielzcsnewsky,
later changed by a clerk at Ellis Island) had become Pellner.

Edited by Mark S. Harris           East-hist-msg           Page 19 of 24
Currently, I understand she's made a fortune selling medical
practices, starting with that of her husband, when he passed away,
and expanding this into a sort of brokerage. And she really does talk


Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 21:47:00 -0500
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] "Banned Foods" sortof still is: "Kingdom"
      National    Dishes
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at>

>> But, as one of our Once and Future Dukes learned to his sorrow, if you
>> peeve the cook, you won't get your steak and potato no matter how
>> childishly you demand'em in your whims.
> Ooo, ooo, do tell...
> I am just interested as a matter history, of course.

Not much to tell, really. The Royal Who Shall Remain Nameless To Protect
The Guilty had requested steak and potatoes at every feast. The head
cook worked at a restaurant, and had been hoarding (freezing and
hoarding) steak tips for this feast, and ha baked some potatoes as

However, the RWSHRNTPTG had 1) not sampled his savory toasted cheese, 2)
paid no attention to the care lavished on the first course, and 3) been
rude to the servers. The cook, tired and cross, declared that since the
Royals didn't appreciate his cooking, they wouldn't get their steak and
potatoes. The cleanup crew got the filet mignon tips instead. :)

So, our battle cry became "How can you have your potatoes if you won't
eat your Savory Toasted Cheese?" :)
-- Jadwiga Zaaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at

Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 22:34:56 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
      <adamantius.magister at>
Subject: Re:[Sca-cooks] Whey
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at>

Also sprach Martin G. Diehl:
> (2) Also found in the Kingdom of the East, Crown Province
> of Ostgardr -- Canton of Whyt Whey.

Originally the Incipient Canton of the Grate Whyte Whey (thank you,
Sir Edward Zifran -- would the good people of a proposed Brooklyn
canton accept my suggestion of the name, Canton of Ebbet's Field?
Nooooooewwwwww!!!). Once upon a time, it is rumored, the prevailing
method of spelling the name "Østgar•r" was translatable in two ways.
Depending on which Scandinavian language you assumed it to come from,
it meant either "Eastern Fortress" (or some such), or "Cheese Farm".

We all got into the habit, when the aroma of political mendacity hit
the air, of saying, "Leave us out of this: We're only simple cheese

Edited by Mark S. Harris           East-hist-msg              Page 20 of 24

The Canton of Whyt Whey is, of course, Manhattan Island.


Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:57:28 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: ATTN Jedwiga has PMS
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at>

From: iasmin at
> YAY! I hear tell that a vigil will be sat at an event called
> "Mudthaw" (intriguing name, that)

This March will see the 26th annual celebration of The Thawing of the
Mud in the ancient and honorable Barony of Settmour Swamp. The "Swamp"
part of our name comes from The Great Swamp, which is located in the
heart of the Barony.

Naturally, when Spring comes, we rejoice to see the mud of our homeland
released from Winter's icy grip. Mudthaw is our biggest annual event,
one of the first major tourneys of the season. (Sometimes the fighters
battle on a muddy field, and sometimes they're up to their greaves in
snow.) Mudthaw is usually a Royal Progress event, but TRM are unable
to attend this year -- they have to preside over the birth of a barony
at the other end of the Kingdom.

> Iasmin

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 11:36:54 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
      <adamantius.magister at>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Title of an ex-Viceroy
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at>

On May 23, 2006, at 11:05 AM, Karin Burgess wrote:

>   Q: What is a Viceroy/Vicereine?
>   A: According to the Oxford English Dictionary, a Viceroy or
>   Vicereine is "One who acts as the governor of a country, province,
>   etc. in the name and by the authority of the supreme ruler; a vice-
>   king." Originally, as the "Seat" of the East Kingdom, Ostgardr was
>   ruled directly by the Crown; for the past few decades it has been
>   ruled by a Viceroy and Vicereine as representatives of the Crown.
>   According to Kingdom law, the Viceroy and Vicereine of Ostgardr
>   outrank all other landed barons, regardless of their dates of
>   elevation, and indeed take precedence over all but royal peers.
>   Within the Crown Province (at least according to one knowledgeable
>   source), they take precedence over royal peers as well, except the
>   current King, Queen, Crown Prince, and Crown Princess.
>   (Summarized from information provided by Yosef ben Lazar, Seahorse
>   Pursuivant, and Master Ian, Viceroy of Ostgardr.)
>   From :

Edited by Mark S. Harris             East-hist-msg            Page 21 of 24
> So it seems it is a unique title. I guess someone could contact
> the current Viceroy or Viceriene of Ostgardr, see what They will be
> called :)

I just got the Viceregal Answering Machine and left a message
punctuated with much uncontrollable laughter.

I'd bet anything they're going to be Baron Ian and Baroness
Katherine, Barons of the Court, Master/Mistress of the Pelican,
Laurel and Pelican, respectively, and the Third Viceroy (I think) and
First Vicereine of Ostgardr

>   This information pertains to just this example though. other places
>   may use it differently. Like Reeve/ess or Vicor/ess. At least here
>   in Caid, the term Reeve/ess is used for the acknowledged heirs to a
>   Barony. Though when my husband and had been chosen, we had been
>   given a choice to use either. Feeling that Vicro/ess had too much
>   of a religious feel to it, we stayed with Reeve/ss. I know that
>   Vicor/ess in other areas is used for someone who has been asked to
>   step in when things go wrong in a Barony (that was another reason
>   we didn't want to use it)

Things don't have to be wrong here for a vicar to be installed. At
one point a couple of years ago, Ian and Katherine were suspended for
a reign [illegally, as it turned out; the Crown had every right to
suspend them per terms in Law which, ultimately, never even came
close to being met], the Crown tried to appoint a vicar, and nobody
would touch the job with a ten-foot pole.

Subsequently, when this couple decided it was time, for the well-
being of both the group and themselves, to retire after some 26 years
on the job, there was talk of installing a vicar to function as
titular head of the group and oversee the election of a new Viceroy
and/or Vicereine, until it was made clear to the Crown that, as per
Law, the vicar could not then run for election to the post himself.
Once again, nobody wanted the job, and our Kingdom seneschal, who
happens to live in Ostgardr, is theoretically overseeing the
election. We have no vicar, but then the Viceroy and Vicereine are
still on the job until the investiture of their replacement/s, so we
don't need one.


Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 19:00:07 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
      <adamantius.magister at>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 9/11 SCA cooks
To: dailleurs at,      Cooks within the SCA
      <sca-cooks at>

On Sep 11, 2006, at 5:55 PM, Anne-Marie Rousseau wrote:

>   we call that the "natural fiber test!" in the circle of geeks I
>   hang out with ;)
>   --AM, who presumes the viceroy was ok, or else folks wouldn’t be
>   giggling so much? ;)

Yes, he's fine, apart from a silver-dollar-sized hole in some of his

Edited by Mark S. Harris             East-hist-msg           Page 22 of 24
garb. What actually happened was this (from another account):

>   the new Viceroy, Alexandre, was making a passionate plea for people
>   to help clean the kitchen since there had had to be some
>   reallocation of human resources. He's trying to stress the need for
>   help, and I spot something odd about his back. I walk out of the
>   kitchen doorway and start pulling on his sleeve. He's like, "C'Mon,
>   I'm talking here." "Excellency..." "I mean it, can we talk later,
>   I'm tryin' a get you folks a cleanup crew!" "Excellency, you're on
>   fire." "My lords and ladies..." "HEY!!! Your Excellency!!! You're
>   burning! Your chaplet...thingy...wotzit is on fire!!!"
>   It was. They were all seated in front of a high fireplace and
>   mantel, and there were little candles in low glasses lit on the
>   mantelpiece. He had, in fact, risen to speak, stepped too close to
>   the candles and set his garb on fire (he's quite tall), which
>   burned with a small, slow, steady, clear blue flame. Looked like
>   Sterno ;-)
>   So, a surreal time was had by all, we all sang the Talking Heads'
>   "Burning Down the Viceroy!" in the kitchen.

Three-hun-dred-six-ty-five-de-grees! Burnin' down the Viceroy!

This was Brekke's feast, and a very good one; I just happened to be
standing very close when the Elevation Conflagration, or the
Investiture Immolation, occurred.

There were other assorted Portents, Omens and Signs at this event,
including a very sudden and violent thunderstorm during Royal Court,
and the Investiture ceremony itself being visited by a blue heron,
who flew over and essentially strafed the participants.


Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 11:16:59 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A question sure to cause controversy
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at>

On Feb 19, 2009, at 10:21 AM, Susan Lin wrote:
<<< Do people prefer Chef de Cuisine (or some version thereof) or is
Feast-o-crat okay? I know people who absolutely despise F-O-C and can be
verbally violent about it. I came from the East where it seemed to be
routinely used but now in the Outlands I've had to watch what I say. >>>

I remember that term becoming popular in the mid-to-late 80's in the
East (I remember a lady from Meridies referring to me by that term,
and I didn't really know at the time what it meant), and I live in the
group that, at one time, _was_ the East.

Yes, you still occasionally hear the term, but I think a lot of people
are trying to avoid it (also autocrat), since there are several terms
that can be used which not only describe the role more accurately, but
also in a manner more consistent with the goals of a group attempting
to portray history.

It needlessly removes the person you're describing from a role in
period society, and that is somewhat akin to standing in the lists at
a Crown Tourney and loudly calling the finalists, stick-jocks, or

Edited by Mark S. Harris             East-hist-msg           Page 23 of 24
fencers, wire-weenies. Yes, one could argue it's an accurate
description [one could also argue to the contrary]; it's just not as
good a description as we're capable of using.


From: Mark Schuldenfrei <mark at SCHULDY.ORG>
Date: May 10, 2010 2:38:45 PM CDT
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Precedence of Territorial Barons and Baronesses

Fernando Vigil wrote:
<<< The Baronages don't normally handle the toasts. Of course if you go back far
enough into our history a number of our barons/baronesses were amount the
highest ranking folks - but due to their Peerages, not the baronial rank. >>>

Eastern Difference - it is the case that local Barons and/or Baronesses
in their own territory toast the Crowns and Heirs, whether they are
present or not.


<the end>

Edited by Mark S. Harris           East-hist-msg           Page 24 of 24

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