Subject: TROMBONE-L digest 130 Date: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 12:01 AM From: Multiple recipients of list
To: Multiple recipients of list TROMBONE-L Digest 130 Topics covered in this issue include: Fw: Re: Lassus and overplayed music by "Fred Hudson" 2) Re: Fwd: Re: Lassus and overplayed music by sabutin 3) YSL-697Z & Jim Pugh by sgreat@tpg.com.au (Simon Greatwood) 4) Re: Lassus and overplayed music by "Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC 417 BSB DPW - ERMD" 5) OTJ Classifieds Update 8/9/04 by Chris Waage 6) Re: repertoire choice was RE: Re: Lassus and overplayed music by "Skeptic X" 7) Re: Lassus and overplayed music by sabutin 8) Re: Lassus and overplayed music by "Pat McFarland" 9) Re: Lassus and overplayed music by "Raymond Horton" 10) Re: Lassus and overplayed music by walter barrett 11) Re: Lassus and overplayed music by sabutin 12) BOB MCCHESNEY CLINIC AT BONES WEST - AUG 28TH by "Randy Wallen" 13) RE: BOB MCCHESNEY CLINIC AT BONES WEST - .PDF ANNOUNCEMENT by "Randy Wallen" 14) Re: Lassus and overplayed music by "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" 15) Re: YSL-697Z & Jim Pugh by BITEensemble@aol.com 16) Re: Lassus and overplayed music by sabutin 17) RE: BOB MCCHESNEY CLINIC AT BONES WEST - .PDF ANNOUNCEMENT by "Chris Tune" 18) Re: Barnacle's, etc. by Robert Sanders 19) Re: Lassus and overplayed music & German Anthem by "Galen McQuarrie" 20) Re: Lassus and overplayed music & German Anthem by walter barrett 21) Re: Lassus and overplayed music & German Anthem by "Fred Hudson" 1)
Re: Lassus and overplayed music by "Raymond Horton" 23) RE: BOB MCCHESNEY CLINIC AT BONES WEST - .PDF ANNOUNCEMENT by "Raymond Horton" 24) Re: Lassus and overplayed music & German Anthem by "Adrian Drover" 25) Re: Lassus and overplayed music by "Galen McQuarrie" 26) Wanted : King 11M Mouthpiece by John B 27) Re: Lassus and overplayed music by "Roger Carmichael" 28) Re: Lassus and overplayed music by "Raymond Horton" 29) Re: Lassus and overplayed music by "Roger Carmichael" 30) Re: Lassus: overplayed and appropriate? by "Martin Walter" 31) Re: Lassus and overplayed music by emrose79@sonic.net 32) Re: Lassus and overplayed music by "paulnshelly" 33) Re: Lassus and overplayed music by "Jeff Albert" 34) Question for Adrian by emrose79@sonic.net 35) Re: Lassus and overplayed music by "Raymond Horton" 36) Re: Lassus and overplayed music by Earl Needham 37) Re: Lassus and overplayed music by Dave Tall 38) Fwd: RE: Re: Lassus and overplayed music by sabutin 39) Re: Lassus and overplayed music by emrose79@sonic.net 40) Ghee by "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" 41) Re: Ghee by emrose79@sonic.net 42) Re: Lassus and overplayed music by sabutin 43) Re: Lassus and overplayed music by Larry White 44) Re: Ghee by "Phil Brink" From: "Fred Hudson" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 00:13:29 -0500 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1414] Fw: Re: Lassus and overplayed music
22)
----- Original Message ----From: Fred Hudson To: sabutin@mindspring.com Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 12:08 AM Subject: Re: [TROMBONE-L:1404] Re: Lassus and overplayed music Being a native-born Miamian and in high school in the late 40's when "Uncle Henry" Fillmore attended almost every high school football game in town, taking the opportunity to conduct the band for a number or two, we played "Lassus" and "Shoutin Liza" more than once under his direction; and always as written - no ad lib glisses. One of his favorite stories (it must have been a favorite - we heard it every time we played any of the Trombone Family) dealt with his receiving what he considered to be the greatest compliment he ever received. When touring Australia with his own band and meeting for the first time a local musician who was familiar with the Trombone Family the man exclaimed "You're Henry Fillmore? I thought Henry Fillmore was black" The fact that he considered that a compliment may or may not label him a racist - it doesn't make any difference. He lived, performed and composed in an era when some of the most popular entertainers, such as Al Jolson and Eddie Cantor performed in blackface and sang songs with lyrics written in pseudo black dialect, much like Henry's subtitles. And that was generally acceptable at the time. But that is now history, it can't be erased any more than the history of lynching and slavery can be caused to disappear, but it can be kept in perspective as a practice that was demeaning and disrespectful to a large segment of the population and is no longer tolerated. Fred H Give us the courage to change what we have the power to change and the wisdom to know the difference. ----- Original Message ----From: sabutin
To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 3:22 AM overplayed music
Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1404] Re: Lassus and
Originally by"Raymond Horton"
---snip---
One thing that gets forgotten about "Lassus" is that originally it was supposed to be played as slow as "MO-lassus" - it was marked either "A Slow Rag" or "A Very Slow Rag," (I forget which). (It's also had a terrible racial slur in the subtitle, but we don't go If I may be so bold as to ask... there.)
Why SHOULDN'T we "go there"?
I am going to post below something I wrote originally several years ago, and expanded upon after "Lassus Trombone" was chosen to be the group finale of the last program at the International trombone Festival this year.. I believe I posted the first part on the trombone list, but maybe it was on the OTJ. The addition was posted on my website.
Wherever it was posted...if we are going to play this stuff, (and I personally will NOT play it) we should at the very LEAST recognize the virulent and poisonous systemic racism of which it was a symptom.
First a list of Mr. Fillmore's pieces as he described them in the collection "The Trombone Family".
The "Trombone Family" was composed and published over a period of 21 years; after the completion of the last "member," Fillmore published the set as "The Trombone Family - A collection of 15 Original and Humorous Trombone Novelties." This is the lineup of all of the solos with Fillmore's subtitles:
=========================================================================
"Miss Trombone" (1908) Band of America.
The soloist with the famous Colored Ladies'
"Teddy Trombone" - (1911) - A brother to Miss Trombone. The first class colored band's trombonist shinin' before the Great Side Show.
"Lassus Trombone" (1915) - The big, lanky, colored gentleman slidin' a rag with the mistrel band. De culled valet to Teddy Trombone.
"Pahson Trombone" (1916) preacher.
- Lassus Trombone's ole man, a colored
"Sally Trombone" (1917) - Pahson Trombone's eldest gal - some crow. The long, shuffling, loose-jointed cullud sistah playing her favorite rag.
"Slim Trombone" (1918) step kid.
Sally Trombone's city cousin, the jazzin' one-
"Mose Trombone" (1919) -
He's Slim Trombone's buddy.
"Shoutin' Liza Trombone"
(1920) - Mose Trombone's ah-finity.
"Hot Trombone" (1921) -
He's jes a fren ob Shoutin' Liza Trombone.
"Bones Trombone" (1922) Big Dick or Number 10.
- He's just as warm as Hot Trombone, He's the
"Dusty Trombone" (1923)
- He's de next door neighbor ot Bones Trombone.
"Bull Trombone" (1924) toreador.
Yas'ir.
Dat's he.
They say he's a culled
"Lucky Trombone" (1926)
- He's de thirteenth member ov de fambly.
"Boss Trombone" (1929) -
He's de head man.
"Ham Trombone" (1929) -
A cullud bahbaque.
=====================================================================
As if that list ALONE isn't sufficient to make my original comments.
point...here are my
======================================================================
I'm sure (name redacted) will understand this, but I also am going to put a disclaimer in, for those on this list who tend to get excited by the least hint of conflict.
Ready? Here
goes.
THIS IS NOT A
FLAME!!!
This man Fillmore WAS a racist. So was 99% of American society of European descent, at the time he was writing. He was a representative of his time. Nothing more, nothing less, as was the anti-Semite Wagner, as were ALL the other composers of ANY era. God only knows what Mozart or Haydn thought about other races...and it really shouldn't matter. The music stands on its own merit. (Or falls...I'm not suggesting Fillmore's any Mozart, but as above, so below...the principle holds true.)
What struck me as sad here were the dates...1908 through 1929. Louis Armstrong joined King Oliver's band in 1922; by 1928 he and Fatha Hines had done the Hot Five and Hot Seven recordings...masterpieces of music, worthy of the attention of Ravel and Milhaud, among others. Sidney Bechet was active... a more refined musician has never existed. Duke Ellington's band was already recording, working in the Cotton Club in NY. Basie was playing virtuoso piano w/Bennie Moten in Kansas City. The
Harlem stride piano school was in full bloom. Jelly Roll Morton was writing some VERY out stuff...and this guy missed it all.
Damn !!! I wish I could
have heard that music live.
Poor little Mr. hear a thing.
Fillmore. He had his cultural ear plugs on, couldn't
"Culled Bahbeque"!!! Pops had already recorded "Struttin' With Some Barbeque", just a little throwaway duet w/Fatha Hines...a more elegant improvisation will NEVER be played.
Check THAT
out...
S.
========================================================================= =
And my more recent comments
========================================================================= ===
Now that I reread the list of Fillmore song titles, I am even more incensed. (I have become much more actively politicized over the ensuing Bush years.)
"Lassus rag with
Trombone" (1915) - The big, lanky, colored gentleman slidin' a the mistrel band. De culled valet to Teddy Trombone.[/quote]
"Sally Trombone" (1917) - Pahson Trombone's eldest gal - some crow. The long, shuffling, loose-jointed cullud sistah playing her favorite rag.
"Bones Trombone" (1922) - He's just as warm as Hot Trombone, He's the Big Dick (!!!!!-S.) or Number 10.
"Bull Trombone" (1924) toreador.
- Yas'ir.
Dat's he.
They say he's a culled
I can't imagine what
THAT was supposed to mean.
Right?
"Ham Trombone"
(1929) - A cullud bahbaque.
PLEASE!!! ========================================================================= ====
I suppose you should know here that I am the chairman of the International Trombone Association's Diversity Committee, and that we are trying to open up the ITA to all idioms of music all over the world, thus making it truly "International".
As always...large organizations change slowly and unevenly.
But change they do.
As should we all.
On with the repost:
========================================================================= ====
And here we are well into the second year of an attempt to diversify the membership and the aims of the International Trombone Association.
Playing a Festival finale written by a white man who as far as I can find out is remembered for writing absolutely nothing BUT music that caricatured black people as loose limbed, well endowed sexual toreadors and barbecue eating servants. (He apparently was quite a prolific composer for military band, but used pseudonyms like Gus Beans, Harold Bennett, Henry Hartley and Henrietta Hall for much of his output.)
WHOOPS!!!
He DID put his name on these "The Trombone Family" pieces, which says to me that he was not only totally unconscious of his racism but actually quite proud of it.
There is a very well known black jazz trombonist who refused further work with the Smithsonian Jazz Masterworks Orchestra because they repeatedly played a Glenn Miller arrangement that included one theme that was Confederate in nature. (I forget which arrangementÉ"American Patrol" I believe.)
And we wonder why there ITA?
are not more minority people involved in the
WellÉthere it is,
folks.
In black and white, as
they say in some circles.
Check it
out.
========================================================================= ====
I can't get much clearer than that.
But I'll try.
If some pre-W. W. II German composer had written a series of pieces about "Ikey, Der Haken Roch Juden" (Ikey, The Hook Nosed Jew) and his sister "Rachel, Die Geldverleiher-Dirne" (Rachel, The Moneylender Whore), would it really make any difference how cute and entertaining the pieces might seem today?
Please.
I hope not.
And yet under the cover of this systemic racism, at were ruined in America as in Germany.
LEAST as many lives
So the next time you feel compelled to play this music...at LEAST try to make the audience aware of its societal significance during the time it was written.
This is a debt that America MUST pay if it is ever its shameful racist past.
going to rise above
Later...
Sam Burtis
From: sabutin Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 01:16:36 -0400 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1415] Re: Fwd: Re: Lassus and overplayed music >At 02:16 AM 8/8/2004, sabutin wrote: >>OK...cyber spooks at work. >> >>I am mystified. >> >>The original post appears to have somehow healed itself on my mail >>reader (Eudora 6.1 for Mac OS X) , while the second one contains >>the bot-edited version. >> >>I have no idea what is happening now... >> >>Anyway...if you receive an edited version, go look at it on my website. >> >>Later... > > Sam, both came through intact here. I just got back from >Denver (DCI -- CAVILIERS WON!!!), so I hope I'm somewhat coherent. >1000+ miles on my weekend off! > > At the risk of sounding like a racist (I try not to be, and >I think I succeed), this music is problematical only if the audience >knows the titles. Makes me think that perhaps it's safer to call >them a "special" and not let the title be known. > > The second problem, is that whenever you try to explain the >history of this music, the audience IMMEDIATELY thinks that you >agree with it. And the more you argue, the less credibility you >have. > > So you either trash the music or else you look like a >racist, or else you hope nobody knows just exactly what the music >is, or... > > Earl Earl... So you either trash the music or else you look like a racist, or else
you hope nobody knows just exactly what the music is, or... OR...you try to educate a few people. As far as having people think you are a racist if you try to explain the history of the music...next time you are tempted to perform the music, invite me on out to speak. The audience may not particularly like what they hear, but they will SURELY know which way the race card flips on THIS issue before I'm finished speaking to them. Should take all of five minutes, Later... S.l > > >Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico tops...
DM84jk
From: sgreat@tpg.com.au (Simon Greatwood) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 16:52:36 +1000 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1416] YSL-697Z & Jim Pugh Havn't played one but saw one last night at the Melbourne International Brass Festival. Eijiro Nakajima (I think) was playing a similar horn for his bits. I also had a great chat with Jim Pugh during interval of the American Horn Quartet gig. he's a great guy and had heaps of time for me. We discussed the future of student musicians and decided that someone (he suggested me...) figures out a way to get trombones into hip-hop so that the younger generation will be interested. I'm 24 but not into hip-hop or rap by any means. Oh well, I'll have a go if Jim says so... and this was after chatting to Allen Vizzuti on Saturday night!!! wow... Al's doing the Brandenburg 2 tomorrow night and boy am I looking forward to that! Simon From: "Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC 417 BSB DPW ERMD" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 12:14:14 +0200 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1417] Re: Lassus and overplayed music
-----Original Message----From: sabutin [mailto:sabutin@mindspring.com] Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 10:22 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1404] Re: Lassus and overplayed music < snip> Why SHOULDN'T we "go there"?
This man Fillmore WAS a racist. So was 99% of American society of European descent, at the time he was writing. He was a representative of his time. Nothing more, nothing less, as was the anti-Semite So the next time you feel compelled to play this music...at LEAST try to make the audience aware of its societal significance during the time it was written.
This is a debt that America MUST pay if it is ever its shameful racist past.
going to rise above
Later...
Sam Burtis
You make good points. The difficulty is what to do with them. Lassus is a catchy crowdpleaser, not deep music but a good program choice in lighter venues. If, that is, you ignore some of the connotations. Similarly, Barnacle Bill the Sailor is about the joys of drunken men beating and raping their girlfriends. Nice tune, and that trombonist from the Netherlands Navy did an awesome job of it, if you ignore the connotations. Onward Christian Soldiers is a good traditional hymn, stirring tune and good lyrics, if you ignore its use by the racist survivalist rightwing kooks as their anthem. Offensiveness is not just due to racism.
I'm not sure what the answer is. Can we separate the music from the context? If we play Lassus for a group of kids today, there is zero chance they know anything of the history, or of Fillmore's attitudes, or of the prevailing attitudes when it was written. They can separate the music from the context, they haven't a clue. But we do. If we sing OCS in my church, probably none of the members know it is proudly sung down the block in the KKK meeting hall too. But I do.
I agree, we
SHOULD go there.
I'm not sure what to do when we get there.
.
From: Chris Waage Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 06:52:36 -0500 To: Trombone-L , brass_list Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1418] OTJ Classifieds Update 8/9/04 The Online Trombone Journal Classifieds http://www.trombone.org/classifieds - have been updated as of 6:52 AM CDT on August 9, 2004. - - - - - Thank you for using the OTJ Classifieds! - - - - OTJ Classifieds Frequently Asked Questions http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/faq.asp OTJ Gift Shoppe: http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/store.aspx?storeid=trombones If you have any questions or comments about the Online Trombone Journal Classifieds, please contact me at chris@trombone.org. Chris Waage -Chris Waage, Bass Trombonist The Online Trombone Journal www. trombone.org
From: "Skeptic X" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 10:28:48 -0400 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1419] Re: repertoire choice was RE: Re: Lassus and overplayed music > > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe the reason many of us have to play the same old pabulum or play to empty spaces, is because we as performing artists donât take the time to carefully program a mixture of familiar music with newer things that will expand the tastes of our audiences. Our audiences get used to the same old schlock, then thatâs all they want to hear. If my ten year only eats macaroni and cheese, and isnât forced to eat other things, pretty soon he will refuse to eat anything other than mac and cheese. It is our responsibility to entertain, but our audiences also entrust us with their artistic nourishment, and when we fail in that respect is when we really mess up our situations. Jeff Albert
Hey man, don't knock macaroni and cheese! Seriously though, I'm with you on this one, Jeff. I'd say I count more as an audience member/symphony fan than as I do a performer, and I'm extremely tired of hearing the same lackluster teunz ("tunes" connotates something at least reminiscent of music) every October, November and December (September this year as well, maybe?) as it is, without paying to get yet more of the same. I'd like to go to symphony performances during the Christmas holidays, and I usually do whenever the program isn't just adding to the same nausiating, unavoidable repertoir imposed upon all of us who venture out into nearly any public place for two to three months each and every year. Then again, I think many people -would- prefer macaroni and cheese to filet minion, so I guess it's only fair to give me and mine filet minion the rest of the year, and to let others enjoy the annual experience of getting all dressed up and coming out to the symphony halls . . . to consume their macaroni and cheese. Byron (the skeptic) From: sabutin Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 11:23:25 -0400 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1420] Re: Lassus and overplayed music
-----Original Message----From: sabutin [mailto:sabutin@mindspring.com] Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 10:22 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1404] Re: Lassus and overplayed music
< snip> Why SHOULDN'T we "go there"? This man Fillmore WAS a racist. So was 99% of American society of European descent, at the time he was writing. He was a representative of his time. Nothing more, nothing less, as was the anti-Semite So the next time you feel compelled to play this music...at LEAST try to make the audience aware of its societal significance during the time it was written. This is a debt that America MUST pay if it is ever going to rise above its shameful racist past. Later... Sam Burtis You make good points. The difficulty is what to do with them. Lassus is a catchy crowdpleaser, not deep music but a good program choice in lighter venues. If, that is, you ignore some of the connotations. Similarly, Barnacle Bill the Sailor is about the joys of drunken men beating and raping their girlfriends. Nice tune, and that trombonist from the Netherlands Navy did an awesome job of it, if you ignore the connotations. Onward Christian Soldiers is a good traditional hymn, stirring tune and good lyrics, if you ignore its use by the racist survivalist rightwing kooks as their anthem. Offensiveness is not just due to racism. I'm not sure what the answer is. Can we separate the music from the context? If we play Lassus for a group of kids today, there is zero chance they know anything of the history, or of Fillmore's attitudes, or of the prevailing attitudes when it was written. They can separate the music from the context, they haven't a clue. But we do. If we sing OCS in my church, probably none of the members know it is proudly sung down the block in the KKK meeting hall too. But I do. I agree, we SHOULD go there. I'm not sure what to do when we get there.
========================================================================= Well, I think a good start would be to separate the USES put to music from their ROOTS. Any fool can appropriate a tune for good OR ill uses. And anybody no matter WHAT their personal beliefs can write or play music that does not necessarily reflect those beliefs.
Further, you can take any music and alter it in ways that will make it mean things other than what was perhaps the composer's intent. I'm sure elements of the "Horst Wessel" song...a Nazi anthem from W. W. II about a supposed martyr to that cause...could be put to any means desired, from a Coke ad to a pean about Jewish freedom. Thge original; melody was a soldiers' folk song from who knows HOW far back. Barnacle Bill...never noticed the words, but if I had, I would make the same points. (As matter of fact, I just looked them, up. About getting drunk, about loose sex and a loose life, but not about rape or violence...at least not the version I found.) But the very ROOT of Fillmore's "Trombone Family" is racist. Ands it is shot THROUGH with the peculiarly sexual fear that comprised a large part of the racism of America toward its slaves and ex-slaves. There is a little word picture of Mr. Fillmore I found on the web yesterday, although I cannot locate it now. It is the PERFECT picture of the well meaning, bumbling white man who facilitated (with very little or no conscious ill will of his own...just like all them good Germans we always hear about) the absolute HOLOCAUST of suffering, deprivation and death that was the fate of black people in the United States for several hundred years. (And no one knows how many lives.) He is an old man, retired but still active in the school band scene in Florida, and tells this story with much pride.. (Over and over again, apparently...every time he rehearses this one high school marching band.) He was approached by someone from another country who, upon being informed that yes, he was indeed the same Henry Fillmore who had composed "The Trombone Family" ,exclaimed in great surprise "I am AMAZED!!! I thought it was written by a negro!!" Now there are depths to this anecdote that could be plumbed for days...but let's just let the short version suffice. I cannot imagine that ANY black person in America with any intelligence whatsoever over the last 200 years or so could possibly make that same mistake, and if indeed they did find out that it had been written by a black man, they would despise him for his unalloyed Uncle Tom-ness. I mean...these pieces and titles aren't even get-over SLY, the way say Stepinfetchit ran HIS game. Just flat out nasty. " 'Bull Trombone' (1924) - Yas'ir. Dat's he. toreador." They say he's a culled
" 'Sally Trombone' (1917) - Pahson Trombone's eldest gal - some crow. The long, shuffling, loose-jointed cullud sistah playing her favorite rag." " 'Bones Trombone' (1922) - He's just as warm as Hot Trombone, He's the Big Dick or Number 10." Please. Some crow indeed. Some JIM Crow. And he didn't even know what he was doing. Deep. So "what to do with them" is either deep six them or use them as teaching tools. SOCIAL teaching tools. I mean...there are OTHER crowd pleasers, aren't there? Later... S.
.
From: "Pat McFarland" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 10:25:03 -0500 To: , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1421] Re: Lassus and overplayed music Why would we want to perpetuate hate? hate is hate!! Even disguised as "education,"
I say there's nothing wrong with separating the music from its context. That's the beauty of instrumental music... NO WORDS!! Just pure music... joy! There is plenty of popular music that I find offensive (i.e... sex, drugs, & rock-&-roll!). But some of it is still good music if you forget about the group who performs it, the words, the circumstances of its composition, etc... How do you think elevator music evolved :o)!! There always has been and always will be music that offends some people. Personally, I don't use my horn or my music as a political weapon. What's the fun in that? I use it to provide enjoyment to other people as well as myself. My $0.02. An Iowan's perspective. Feel free to disagree.
Pat McFarland ----- Original Message ----From: Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC 417 BSB DPW - ERMD To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 5:14 AM overplayed music
Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1417] Re: Lassus and
-----Original Message----From: sabutin [mailto:sabutin@mindspring.com] Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 10:22 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1404] Re: Lassus and overplayed music < snip> Why SHOULDN'T we "go there"?
This man Fillmore WAS a racist. So was 99% of American society of European descent, at the time he was writing. He was a representative of his time. Nothing more, nothing less, as was the anti-Semite So the next time you feel compelled to play this music...at LEAST try to make the audience aware of its societal significance during the time it was written.
This is a debt that America MUST pay if it is ever its shameful racist past.
going to rise above
Later...
Sam Burtis
You make good points. The difficulty is what to do with them. Lassus is a catchy crowdpleaser, not deep music but a good program choice in lighter venues. If, that is, you ignore some of the connotations. Similarly, Barnacle Bill the Sailor is about the joys of drunken men beating and raping their girlfriends. Nice tune, and that trombonist from the Netherlands Navy did an awesome job of it, if you ignore the connotations. Onward Christian Soldiers is a good traditional hymn, stirring tune and good lyrics, if you ignore its use by the racist survivalist rightwing kooks as their anthem. Offensiveness is not just due to racism.
I'm not sure what the answer is. Can we separate the music from the context? If we play Lassus for a group of kids today, there is zero chance they know anything of the history, or of Fillmore's attitudes, or of the prevailing attitudes when it was written. They can separate the music from the context, they haven't a clue. But we do. If we sing OCS in my church, probably none of the members know it is proudly sung down the block in the KKK meeting hall too. But I do.
I agree,
we SHOULD go there.
I'm not sure what to do when we get there.
.
From: "Raymond Horton" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 11:55:32 -0400 To: , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1422] Re: Lassus and overplayed music Someone help me out in my ignorance here - Why would someone from another country make this mistake? Were black performers playing or writing pieces anything like these? Did black ragtime players make more use of smears? Or would a foreigner think that a black would write the horrible descriptive titles? ??? RBH
He was approached by someone from another country who, upon being informed that yes, he was indeed the same Henry Fillmore who had composed "The Trombone Family" ,exclaimed in great surprise "I am AMAZED!!! I thought it was written by a negro!!"
Now there are depths to this anecdote that could be plumbed for days...but let's just let the short version suffice. I cannot imagine that ANY black person in America with any intelligence whatsoever over the last 200 years or so could possibly make that same mistake, and if indeed they did find out that it had been written by a black man, they would despise him for his unalloyed Uncle Tom-ness.
I mean...these pieces and titles aren't even get-over SLY, the way Stepinfetchit ran HIS game.
say
From: walter barrett Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 12:08:45 -0400 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1423] Re: Lassus and overplayed music On 8/9/04 11:23 AM, sabutin smote the keyboard with... > > Further, you can take any music and alter it in ways that will make it mean > things other than what was perhaps the composer's intent. > > I'm sure elements of the "Horst Wessel" song...a Nazi anthem from W. W. II > about a supposed martyr to that cause...could be put to any means desired, > from a Coke ad to a pean about Jewish freedom. Thge original; melody was a > soldiers' folk song from who knows HOW far back.
I run into this pretty much every time a student gets to the Theme from the Emperor String Quartet by Haydn, which was later used for Deutschland uber Alles. (BTW, it doesn't seem to matter which method book I use, it's in almost every one I've run across.) Of course, here in NY, many of my students are Jewish, so I make sure to explain where the tune is originally
from, how it got perverted, and that Haydn probably wouldn't have liked what was done with his tune. The kids don't usually care, but I tell them that their parents or grandparents might freak out over the tune, so they should be sensitive and not practice it if it bothers anyone. Of course, many of them don't practice anyway, but that's a different problem... Walter Barrett "If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." -George W. Bush, October 11, 2000 Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba
From: sabutin Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 12:23:29 -0400 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1424] Re: Lassus and overplayed music Someone help me out in my ignorance here - Why would someone from another country make this mistake? Were black performers playing or writing pieces anything like these? Did black ragtime players make more use of smears? Or would a foreigner think that a black would write the horrible descriptive titles? ??? RBH ====================== Didn't HAVE to be a foreigner. Many people were sufficiently brainwashed by the popular descriptions of black people as "shiftless" "lazy", "stupid", "good for nuthin" " etc. that they would easily make the same mistake. Not EVERYONE was listening to Scott Joplin or Sidney Bechet...or James Reese Europe or Louis Armstrong or...the list goes on and on. And many of them that DID hear and see them only NOTICED the smears. Musical AND personal. AND...it ain't over YET.
Not by a long shot. S. He was approached by someone from another country who, upon being informed that yes, he was indeed the same Henry Fillmore who had composed "The Trombone Family" ,exclaimed in great surprise "I am AMAZED!!! I thought it was written by a negro!!" Now there are depths to this anecdote that could be plumbed for days...but let's just let the short version suffice. I cannot imagine that ANY black person in America with any intelligence whatsoever over the last 200 years or so could possibly make that same mistake, and if indeed they did find out that it had been written by a black man, they would despise him for his unalloyed Uncle Tom-ness. I mean...these pieces and titles aren't even get-over SLY, the way say Stepinfetchit ran HIS game.
From: "Randy Wallen" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:52:35 -0700 To: "'Multiple recipients of list'" Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1425] BOB MCCHESNEY CLINIC AT BONES WEST - AUG 28TH Bob McChesney will bring his enormous talents to Bones West later this month. There is no charge for this event and it is open to players of all talent levels and guests as well. Bring your horn, as we will be playing a lot during this event. WHAT: Bob McChesney Clinic at Bones West DATE: August 28, 2004 TIME: 9:30am-12:30pm LOCATION: 2050 S. Main Street, Santa Ana, CA (AFM Local #7) QUESTIONS? (949) 675-6499 About BonesWest: http://www.boneswest.org/ About Bob McChesney: http://www.bobmcchesney.com/index.html
From: "Randy Wallen" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:54:34 -0700 To: "'Multiple recipients of list'" Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1426] RE: BOB MCCHESNEY CLINIC AT BONES WEST - .PDF ANNOUNCEMENT .PDF announcement attached
From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 11:55:52 -0500 (EST) To: Raymond Horton Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1427] Re: Lassus and overplayed music
On Mon, 9 Aug 2004, Raymond Horton wrote: > Re: [TROMBONE-L:1417] Re: Lassus and overplayed musicSomeone help me out > in my ignorance here - Why would someone from another country make this > mistake? Were black performers playing or writing pieces anything like > these? Yes. Not my area at all, but here's an online collection at the Library of Congress (easily perused) from Brown University. You'll find works with similar images and sentiments. http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/award97/rpbhtml/aasmhome.html About the collection: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/award97/rpbhtml/aasmabout.html And yes, I do know that the Brown family was involved in the slave trade. Carole Nowicke cnowicke@indiana.edu
From: BITEensemble@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 13:22:19 EDT
To: sgreat@tpg.com.au, TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1428] Re: YSL-697Z & Jim Pugh In a message dated 8/9/2004 8:45:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, sgreat@tpg.com.au writes: We discussed the future of student musicians and decided that someone (he suggested me...) figures out a way to get trombones into hip-hop so that the younger generation will be interested. If you are really interested - let me know and I'll send you some of my stuff. SHHHHHHH, don't tell anyone that I have been working on hip-hop. ;-) -Wes From: sabutin Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 14:02:33 -0400 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1429] Re: Lassus and overplayed music >On Mon, 9 Aug 2004, Raymond Horton wrote: > >> Re: [TROMBONE-L:1417] Re: Lassus and overplayed musicSomeone help me out >> in my ignorance here - Why would someone from another country make this >> mistake? Were black performers playing or writing pieces anything like >> these? > >Yes. > >Not my area at all, but here's an online collection at the Library of >Congress (easily perused) from Brown University. You'll find works with >similar images and sentiments. > >http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/award97/rpbhtml/aasmhome.html > >About the collection: > >http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/award97/rpbhtml/aasmabout.html > >And yes, I do know that the Brown family was involved in the slave trade. > > >Carole Nowicke >cnowicke@indiana.edu ========================================= Yes.
Thank you, Carole. I knew that there were black composers working this vein in that era. Money talks, some people don't walk. I guess what bothered me most about the little story regarding Mr. Fillmore was that he found pride in the mistake. I am on very close terms with a number of black men and women who have roots in this era...honest, working musicians now in their eighties and upwards, plus any number who have passed away who were even older. And let me tell you...there is not ONE of them who can find much more than pity and perhaps a kind of forgiving understanding for those people who sold themselves down the river in order to get over. And Fillmore was proud of being mistaken for those who, under the pressures of a racist society, hired themselves out to help perpetuate a vicious set of racial stereotypes which served as the main weapon used to keep their own race in a subservient position to the white race. That's like taking porno pictures of your mother and family, selling them, buying a nice house with the proceeds and then leaving them to live in a hut somewhere on the edge of town. And HE did it under no societal or economic pressure whatsoever. He was one of the most successful and prolific writers for band of his time. SO successful that he had to write under pseudonyms for fear of glutting the market with his wares. It was a terrible time in America. And it's not over. Later... Sam Burtis From: "Chris Tune" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 11:27:05 -0700 To: "List Trombone" Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1430] RE: BOB MCCHESNEY CLINIC AT BONES WEST - .PDF ANNOUNCEMENT I was taken aback at the unfortunate PDF file attached to the original message. It claims that Bob McChesney is a "Conn Artist" and shows Bob holding his trombone backwards.
I can attest to the fact that Bob is not a con-artist and, in fact completely knows how to hold a trombone and play it quite well. I've seen this with my own eyes. The part of the PDF where it talks about his phenomenal technique and his book on doodle-tonguing techniques is also completely true. I've bought his book and CD and they are great. Bob expresses confidence that even goofuses like me can be taught to doodle-tongue. I have my doubts, but am continuing to be interested. I am going to have to spend more time with his excellent book and CD. I believe Bob plays a King Jiggs Whigham, for those interested. He was also very impressed with some of the new Kanstul axes that we played at Fullerton in April. :-) Chris Tune ----- Original Message ----From: "Randy Wallen" To: "'Multiple recipients of list'" <> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 9:54 AM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1426] RE: BOB MCCHESNEY CLINIC AT BONES WEST - .PDF ANNOUNCEMENT > .PDF announcement attached > > From: Robert Sanders Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 11:30:16 -0700 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1431] Re: Barnacle's, etc. Well, there are MANY versions of the lyrics. I found versions online ranging from: from "PG-rated" -- "Barnacle Bill the Sailor [the clean version I heard at camp]" to "X-rated" -- "Barnacle Bill the Sailor [WARNING: this is the unbelievably, incredibly, industrial-strength offensive version of this!!!!]" While the "X" version does not include rape, per se, it does include violence. Probably not all that unusual for old sailor's drinking songs. Although one site indicates that this was a British Army song -presumably at the Navy's expense.
Bob Sanders On Aug 9, 2004, at 8:23 AM, sabutin wrote:
-----Original Message----From: sabutin [mailto:sabutin@mindspring.com] Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 10:22 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1404] Re: Lassus and overplayed music <Êsnip>ÊÊ Why SHOULDN'T we "go there"? Ê This man Fillmore WAS a racist. So was 99% of American society of European descent, at the time he was writing. He was a representative of his time. Nothing more, nothing less, as was the anti-Semite Ê So the next time you feel compelled to play this music...at LEAST try to make the audience aware of its societal significanceÊ duringÊ the time it was written. This is a debt that America MUST pay if it is ever going to rise above its shameful racist past. Later... Sam Burtis Ê You make good points.ÊÊThe difficulty is what to do with them.Ê Lassus is a catchy crowdpleaser, not deep music but a good program choice in lighterÊvenues.Ê If, that is, you ignore some of the connotations.Ê Similarly, Barnacle Bill the Sailor is about the joys ofÊdrunkenÊmen beating and raping their girlfriends.Ê Nice tune, and that trombonist from theÊNetherlands Navy did an awesome job of it, if you ignore theÊconnotations.Ê Onward Christian Soldiers is a good traditional hymn, stirring tune and good lyrics, if you ignore its use by the racist survivalist rightwing kooks as their anthem.ÊÊOffensiveness is not just due to racism.Ê Ê I'm not sure what the answer is.Ê Can we separate the music from the context?Ê If we play Lassus for a group of kids today, there is zero chance they know anything of the history, or of Fillmore's attitudes, or of the prevailing attitudes when it was written.Ê They can separate the music from the context, they haven't a clue.Ê But we do.Ê If we sing OCS
in my church, probably none of the members know it is proudly sung down the block in the KKK meeting hall too.ÊÊ But I do.Ê Ê I agree, we SHOULD go there.Ê I'm not sure what to do when we get there.Ê ========================================================================= Well, I think a good start would be to separate the USES put to music from their ROOTS. Any fool can appropriate a tune for good OR ill uses. And anybody no matter WHAT their personal beliefs can write or play music that does not necessarily reflect those beliefs. Further, you can take any music and alter it in ways that will make it mean things other than what was perhaps the composer's intent. I'm sure elements of the "Horst Wessel" song...a Nazi anthem from W. W. II about a supposed martyr to that cause...could be put to any means desired, from a Coke ad to a pean about Jewish freedom. Thge original; melody was a soldiers' folk song from who knows HOW far back. Barnacle Bill...never noticed the words, but if I had, I would make the same points. (As matter of fact, I just looked them, up. About getting drunk, about loose sex and a loose life, but not about rape or violence...at least not the version I found.) But the very ROOT of Fillmore's "Trombone Family" is racist. Ands it is shot THROUGH with the peculiarly sexual fear that comprised a large part ofÊ the racism of America toward its slaves and ex-slaves. There is a little word picture of Mr. Fillmore I found on the web yesterday, although I cannot locate it now. It is the PERFECT picture of the well meaning, bumbling white man who facilitated (with very little or no conscious ill will of his own...just like all them good Germans we always hear about) the absolute HOLOCAUST of suffering, deprivation and death that was the fate of black people in the United States for several hundred years. (And no one knows how many lives.) He is an old man, retired but still active in the school band scene in Florida, and tells this story with much pride.. (Over and over again, apparently...every time he rehearses this one high school marching band.) He was approached by someone from another country who, upon being informed that yes, he was indeed the same Henry Fillmore who had composed "The Trombone Family" ,exclaimed in great surprise "I am AMAZED!!! I thought it was written by a negro!!"
Now there are depths to this anecdote that could be plumbed for days...but let's just let the short versionÊ suffice.Ê I cannot imagine thatÊ ANY black person in America with any intelligence whatsoeverÊ over the last 200 years or so could possibly make that same mistake, and if indeed they did find out that it had been written by a black man, they would despise him for his unalloyed Uncle Tom-ness. ÊI mean...these pieces and titles aren't even get-over SLY, the way say Stepinfetchit ran HIS game. Just flat out nasty. " 'Bull Trombone' (1924) - Yas'ir.Ê Dat's he.Ê They say he's a culled toreador." " 'Sally Trombone' (1917) - Pahson Trombone's eldest gal - some crow.Ê The long,Ê shuffling, loose-jointed cullud sistah playing her favorite rag." " 'Bones Trombone' (1922) - He's just as warm as Hot Trombone, He's the Big Dick or Number 10." Please. Some crow indeed. Some JIM Crow. And he didn't even know what he was doing. Deep. So "what to do with them" is either deep six them or use them as teaching tools. SOCIAL teaching tools. I mean...there are OTHER crowd pleasers, aren't there? Later... ÊÊ S.
.Ê
From: "Galen McQuarrie" Date: 9 Aug 2004 19:42:11 -0000 To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1432] Re: Lassus and overplayed music & German Anthem
The melody Walt sites and much of the text of Deutschland Uber Alles, is still used as the German National Anthem. I don't know what they call the latest incarnation, however. Galen McQuarrie
On 8/9/2004, "walter barrett" wrote: >On 8/9/04 11:23 AM, sabutin smote the keyboard with... >> >> Further, you can take any music and alter it in ways that will make it mean >> things other than what was perhaps the composer's intent. >> >> I'm sure elements of the "Horst Wessel" song...a Nazi anthem from W. W. II >> about a supposed martyr to that cause...could be put to any means desired, >> from a Coke ad to a pean about Jewish freedom. Thge original; melody was a >> soldiers' folk song from who knows HOW far back. > > > >I run into this pretty much every time a student gets to the Theme from the >Emperor String Quartet by Haydn, which was later used for Deutschland uber >Alles. (BTW, it doesn't seem to matter which method book I use, it's in >almost every one I've run across.) Of course, here in NY, many of my >students are Jewish, so I make sure to explain where the tune is originally >from, how it got perverted, and that Haydn probably wouldn't have liked what >was done with his tune. The kids don't usually care, but I tell them that >their parents or grandparents might freak out over the tune, so they should >be sensitive and not practice it if it bothers anyone. Of course, many of >them don't practice anyway, but that's a different problem... > >Walter Barrett > >"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long >as I'm the dictator." > -George W. Bush, October 11, 2000 > > >Yamaha Artist/Clinician >Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones
>Euphonium >Bass Trumpet >Tuba > > From: walter barrett Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 15:52:29 -0400 To: gsmcq@pocketinet.com, trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1433] Re: Lassus and overplayed music & German Anthem On 8/9/04 3:42 PM, Galen McQuarrie smote the keyboard with... > > The melody Walt sites and much of the text of Deutschland Uber Alles, is > still used as the German National Anthem. I don't know what they call > the latest incarnation, however. > > Galen McQuarrie Thanks, Galen! I did know that they still use the tune for the current anthem, through my Oktoberfest band experiences. The truth is, though, that most Americans DON'T know that, and continue to associate the tune with the Nazi regime. The opportunity still arises to educate the public. Walter Barrett "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba
From: "Fred Hudson" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:21:38 -0500 To: , , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1434] Re: Lassus and overplayed music & German Anthem The words to DDUA were written in 1841 and were a call to Germans to give their loyalty to a German State rather than one of the multiple principalities that later united to form that state. It became the official National Anthem in 1922 under the Weimar Republic and was unofficially usurped by the Horst Wessel Song during the Nazi Regime. A good history and explanation of the current words is found at the following link. http://www.brandenburghistorica.com/page5.html FH ----- Original Message ----From: "walter barrett" To: ; Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 2:52 PM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1433] Re: Lassus and overplayed music & German Anthem > On 8/9/04 3:42 PM, Galen McQuarrie smote the keyboard with... > > > > > The melody Walt sites and much of the text of Deutschland Uber Alles, is > > still used as the German National Anthem. I don't know what they call > > the latest incarnation, however. > > > > Galen McQuarrie > > Thanks, Galen! > > I did know that they still use the tune for the current anthem, through my > Oktoberfest band experiences. The truth is, though, that most Americans > DON'T know that, and continue to associate the tune with the Nazi regime. > The opportunity still arises to educate the public. > > Walter Barrett >
> "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the > country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag > the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a > parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can > always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have > to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for > lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." > > -Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials > > > > Yamaha Artist/Clinician > Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones > Euphonium > Bass Trumpet > Tuba > > > From: "Raymond Horton" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 16:54:07 -0400 To: , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1435] Re: Lassus and overplayed music Reductio ad adsurdem would mean, of course that we should stop using all glissandos, then. But seriously, Sam, I'm with you. I've also spent a significant portion of the last two and a half years of my life on a major composition project for singer, narrators, and orchestra that told an amazing story of two white people who devoted their whole lives to bringing 107 slaves into southern Indiana and freeing them in 1814 and helping them set up new lives. (On this project I was working with one of the descendants of the group). Before that I spent a year and a half writing and producing a full length dramatic musical for churches that used the Good Samaritan parable to confront race relations today. And I've just received a grant to write a composition for narration and orchestra for another race-related topic I hope you'll hear more about that when it's finished. So I'm not bowing to anyone in their commitment to using music to better race relations in this country. I don't know the answer, though. All I said was play "Teddy" instead of "Lassus" Then I found out it's just as evil.
All I can do is, uh, hey - I guarantee my "Fanfare in Bb" has NO RACIAL CONNOTATIONS. It does have a few mixed meters, though. Raymond Horton Louisville Orchestra ----- Original Message ----From: sabutin
To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 12:23 PM overplayed music
Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1424] Re: Lassus and
Someone help me out in my ignorance here - Why would someone from another country make this mistake? Were black performers playing or writing pieces anything like these? Did black ragtime players make more use of smears? Or would a foreigner think that a black would write the horrible descriptive titles? ???
RBH
======================
Didn't HAVE to be a foreigner.
Many people were sufficiently brainwashed by the popular descriptions of black people as "shiftless" "lazy", "stupid", "good for nuthin" " etc. that they would easily make the same mistake.
Not EVERYONE was listening to Scott Joplin or Sidney Bechet...or James Reese Europe or Louis Armstrong or...the list goes on and on.
And many of them that DID hear and see them only NOTICED the smears.
Musical AND personal.
AND...it ain't over YET.
Not by a long shot.
S.
He was approached by someone from another country who, upon being informed that yes, he was indeed the same Henry Fillmore who had composed "The Trombone Family" ,exclaimed in great surprise "I am AMAZED!!! I thought it was written by a negro!!"
Now there are depths to this anecdote that could be plumbed for days...but let's just let the short version suffice. I cannot imagine that ANY black person in America with any intelligence whatsoever over the last 200 years or so could possibly make that same mistake, and if indeed they did find out that it had been written by a black man, they would despise him for his unalloyed Uncle Tom-ness.
I mean...these pieces and titles aren't even get-over Stepinfetchit ran HIS game.
SLY, the way say
From: "Raymond Horton" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 17:09:28 -0400 To: "Chris Tune" , "List Trombone" Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1436] RE: BOB MCCHESNEY CLINIC AT BONES WEST - .PDF ANNOUNCEMENT Bob is not "holding his trombone backwards." rest, He is just holding it at
in his right hand, for a casual look for a picture, to try to look different than all the other "hold your trombone and smile" pictures. No big deal. Plenty of guys have a clinic deal with a different company than the actual axe with which they play. No big deal. I think I've already told the "Blessing in disguise" story here twice. I've got another one. Many years ago, Conn put a book out listing a bunch number of artists, including one who later became a section mate of mine and who did, for real, actually play an 88H. But the book also listed that player as playing a 24-I euphonium (I have one - it's a honey, BTW). Later I was present when this player borrowed a 24-I for a gig and said loudly "How do you hold this crazy thing?" Hmm. RBH ----- Original Message ----From: "Chris Tune" To: "List Trombone" Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 2:27 PM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1430] RE: BOB MCCHESNEY CLINIC AT BONES WEST - .PDF ANNOUNCEMENT > I was taken aback at the unfortunate PDF file attached to the original > message. It claims that Bob McChesney is a "Conn Artist" and shows Bob > holding his trombone backwards. > > I can attest to the fact that Bob is not a con-artist and, in fact > completely knows how to hold a trombone and play it quite well. I've seen > this with my own eyes. > > The part of the PDF where it talks about his phenomenal technique and his > book on doodle-tonguing techniques is also completely true. I've bought his > book and CD and they are great. Bob expresses confidence that even goofuses > like me can be taught to doodle-tongue. I have my doubts, but am continuing > to be interested. I am going to have to spend more time with his excellent > book and CD. > > I believe Bob plays a King Jiggs Whigham, for those interested. He was also
> very impressed with some of the new Kanstul axes that we played at Fullerton > in April. > > :-) > > Chris Tune > > ----- Original Message ----> From: "Randy Wallen" > To: "'Multiple recipients of list'" <> > Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 9:54 AM > Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1426] RE: BOB MCCHESNEY CLINIC AT BONES WEST .PDF > ANNOUNCEMENT > > > > .PDF announcement attached > > > > > From: "Adrian Drover" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:23:29 +0100 To: , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1437] Re: Lassus and overplayed music & German Anthem From: "Galen McQuarrie" > The melody Walt sites and much of the text of Deutschland Uber Alles, is > still used as the German National Anthem. I don't know what they call > the latest incarnation, however. "God Save The Queen"? A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk From: "Galen McQuarrie" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 17:27:53 -0700 To: , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1438] Re: Lassus and overplayed music The Hayden melody, and much of the text of Deutschland uber Alles is Oh no, that's another German tune.
preserved in the current German anthem. I'm pretty sure it dates back before Kaiser Bill and WWI. The Germans I have talked to do not consider it an emblem of the Third Reich. Our family had a German exchange student 3 years ago who sang the anthem clear through for me. She was far from racist or anti-semetic. Galen McQuarrie -----Original Message----From: owner-TROMBONE-L@listproc.samford.edu [mailto:owner-TROMBONE-L@listproc.samford.edu]On Behalf Of walter barrett Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 9:09 AM To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1423] Re: Lassus and overplayed music On 8/9/04 11:23 AM, sabutin smote the keyboard with... > > Further, you can take any music and alter it in ways that will make it mean > things other than what was perhaps the composer's intent. > > I'm sure elements of the "Horst Wessel" song...a Nazi anthem from W. W. II > about a supposed martyr to that cause...could be put to any means desired, > from a Coke ad to a pean about Jewish freedom. Thge original; melody was a > soldiers' folk song from who knows HOW far back.
I run into this pretty much every time a student gets to the Theme from the Emperor String Quartet by Haydn, which was later used for Deutschland uber Alles. (BTW, it doesn't seem to matter which method book I use, it's in almost every one I've run across.) Of course, here in NY, many of my students are Jewish, so I make sure to explain where the tune is originally from, how it got perverted, and that Haydn probably wouldn't have liked what was done with his tune. The kids don't usually care, but I tell them that their parents or grandparents might freak out over the tune, so they should be sensitive and not practice it if it bothers anyone. Of course, many of them don't practice anyway, but that's a different problem... Walter Barrett
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." -George W. Bush, October 11, 2000 Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba
From: John B Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 17:56:14 -0700 To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1439] Wanted : King 11M Mouthpiece If anyone has a King 11M bone mouthpiece that they're not interested in any longer...please let me know. I would pay cash or, if you're already wealthy, do a trade of some kind. Thanks, John From: "Roger Carmichael" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 21:15:04 -0400 To: "Raymond Horton" , sabutin@mindspring.com, TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1440] Re: Lassus and overplayed music Whoa! What does all this race talk have to do with whether you tongue or glissando from one note to another??? Wasn't that the original question? I thought this was a trombone list! ----- Original Message ----From: Raymond Horton To: sabutin@mindspring.com;TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Sent: 8/9/2004 4:54:03 PM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1435] Re: Lassus and overplayed music Reductio ad adsurdem would mean, of course that we should stop using all glissandos, then. But seriously, Sam, I'm with you. I've also spent a significant portion of the last two and a half years of my life on a major composition project for singer, narrators, and orchestra that told an amazing story of two white people who devoted
their whole lives to bringing 107 slaves into southern Indiana and freeing them in 1814 and helping them set up new lives. (On this project I was working with one of the descendants of the group). Before that I spent a year and a half writing and producing a full length dramatic musical for churches that used the Good Samaritan parable to confront race relations today. And I've just received a grant to write a composition for narration and orchestra for another race-related topic I hope you'll hear more about that when it's finished. So I'm not bowing to anyone in their commitment to using music to better race relations in this country. I don't know the answer, though. All I said was play "Teddy" instead of "Lassus" Then I found out it's just as evil. All I can do is, uh, hey - I guarantee my "Fanfare in Bb" has NO RACIAL CONNOTATIONS. It does have a few mixed meters, though. Raymond Horton Louisville Orchestra ----- Original Message ----From: sabutin To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 12:23 PM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1424] Re: Lassus and overplayed music Someone help me out in my ignorance here - Why would someone from another country make this mistake? Were black performers playing or writing pieces anything like these? Did black ragtime players make more use of smears? Or would a foreigner think that a black would write the horrible descriptive titles? ??? RBH ====================== Didn't HAVE to be a foreigner. Many people were sufficiently brainwashed by the popular descriptions of black people as "shiftless" "lazy", "stupid", "good for nuthin" " etc. that they would easily make the same mistake. Not EVERYONE was listening to Scott Joplin or Sidney Bechet...or James Reese Europe or Louis Armstrong or...the list goes on and on. And many of them that DID hear and see them only NOTICED the smears. Musical AND personal. AND...it ain't over YET. Not by a long shot. S.
He was approached by someone from another country who, upon being informed that yes, he was indeed the same Henry Fillmore who had composed "The Trombone Family" ,exclaimed in great surprise "I am AMAZED!!! I thought it was written by a negro!!" Now there are depths to this anecdote that could be plumbed for days...but let's just let the short version suffice. I cannot imagine that ANY black person in America with any intelligence whatsoever over the last 200 years or so could possibly make that same mistake, and if indeed they did find out that it had been written by a black man, they would despise him for his unalloyed Uncle Tom-ness. I mean...these pieces and titles aren't even get-over SLY, the way say Stepinfetchit ran HIS game.
From: "Raymond Horton" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 21:23:41 -0400 To: , , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1441] Re: Lassus and overplayed music We are discussing whether or not you should play these pieces at all, and if you do, whether the racist heritage of the works should be shared with the audience. How more important can that be to a musician who happens to be a trombonist? Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist Louisville Orchestra ----- Original Message ----From: Roger Carmichael
To: Raymond Horton ; sabutin@mindspring.com ; TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 9:15 PM and overplayed music
Subject: RE: [TROMBONE-L:1435] Re: Lassus
Whoa! What does all this race talk have to do with whether you tongue or glissando from one note to another??? Wasn't that the original question? I thought this was a trombone list!
From: "Roger Carmichael" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 21:33:11 -0400 To: "Raymond Horton" , sabutin@mindspring.com, TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1442] Re: Lassus and overplayed music Whether you choose to play or not play is your decision. I just can't seem to find where anybody has answered the original question--do you tongue the G-A-G-A or glissando? I do believe that is all the writer asked. ----- Original Message ----From: Raymond Horton To: rc750@earthlink.net;sabutin@mindspring.com;TROMBONEL@server5.samford.edu Sent: 8/9/2004 9:23:36 PM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1441] Re: Lassus and overplayed music We are discussing whether or not you should play these pieces at all, and if you do, whether the racist heritage of the works should be shared with the audience. How more important can that be to a musician who happens to be a trombonist? Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist Louisville Orchestra ----- Original Message ----From: Roger Carmichael To: Raymond Horton ; sabutin@mindspring.com ; TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 9:15 PM Subject: RE: [TROMBONE-L:1435] Re: Lassus and overplayed music Whoa! What does all this race talk have to do with whether you tongue or glissando from one note to another??? Wasn't that the original question? I thought this was a trombone list!
From: "Martin Walter" Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:38:57 +1000 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1443] Re: Lassus: overplayed and appropriate? Hi guys, One point that may influence the philosophical side oif the debate is that I'm actually in Australia and will be playing Lassus in Australia.
Incidentally we'd love to take Sam up on his offer to introduce Lassus, and seeing he was there, to play for us. Lassus certainly isn't overplayed down here, it's actually the first time I'd heard of it and I've been playing for 30 years. I'll acknowledge Australia has its own problems with racism, past and present that have similarities with the situation in the US, but there will most likely be no-one in our audience who will know of the background of Lassus. Does this make a difference? And thanks for the advice on the semi-quavers or 16th notes, you are a great resource. I'll mention your advice to the band director and we'll work out what we'll do. I'm not sure all of us will be able to tongue the notes so that might be the limiting factor. Martin from Oz. -----Original Message----From: Raymond Horton [mailto:RayHorton@insightbb.com] Sent: Tuesday, 10 August 2004 11:24 AM To: rc750@earthlink.net; sabutin@mindspring.com; TROMBONEL@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1441] Re: Lassus and overplayed music We are discussing whether or not you should play these pieces at all, and if you do, whether the racist heritage of the works should be shared with the audience. How more important can that be to a musician who happens to be a trombonist? Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist Louisville Orchestra ----- Original Message ----From: Roger Carmichael
To: Raymond Horton ; sabutin@mindspring.com ; TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 9:15 PM and overplayed music
Subject: RE: [TROMBONE-L:1435] Re: Lassus
Whoa! What does all this race talk have to do with whether you tongue or glissando from one note to another??? Wasn't that the original question? I thought this was a trombone list!
************************************************************************* **** The information transmitted in this message and attachments (if any) are intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed. The message may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information, by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this in error, please contact the sender and delete this email and associated material from any computer, The intended recipient of this email may only use, reproduce, disclose or distribute the information contained in this email and any attached files, with the permission of the sender. ************************************************************************* **** From: emrose79@sonic.net Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 18:42:05 -0700 Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1444] Re: Lassus and overplayed music Well.. my Fillmore Music House/ Carl Fischer arrangement has them as staccato, if that's any help... it is the "piano acc" version. Ed Roger Carmichael wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Whether you choose to play or not play is your decision. I just can't seem to find where anybody has answered the original question--do you tongue the G-A-G-A or glissando? I do believe that is all the writer asked. ----- Original Message ----From: Raymond Horton To: rc750@earthlink.net ;sabutin@mindspring.com ;TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Sent: 8/9/2004 9:23:36 PM
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list! > > >
Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1441] Re: Lassus and overplayed music We are discussing whether or not you should play these pieces at all, and if you do, whether the racist heritage of the works should be shared with the audience. How more important can that be to a musician who happens to be a trombonist? Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist Louisville Orchestra ----- Original Message ----From: Roger Carmichael To: Raymond Horton ; sabutin@mindspring.com ; TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 9:15 PM Subject: RE: [TROMBONE-L:1435] Re: Lassus and overplayed music Whoa! What does all this race talk have to do with whether you tongue or glissando from one note to another??? Wasn't that the original question? I thought this was a trombone
From: "paulnshelly" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 18:46:21 -0700 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1445] Re: Lassus and overplayed music Good point, Roger, and thanks for the reminder! Sam, please carry this stuff back to your place, where it belongs... Tired of the constant ranting, Paul (who is leaving for an entire week of vacation and has already turned you off, Sam, so don't bother firing back!) Paul Hill Bass Tbn Tucson ----- Original Message ----From: Roger Carmichael
To: Raymond Horton ; sabutin@mindspring.com ; TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 6:15
PM overplayed music
Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1440] Re: Lassus and
Whoa! What does all this race talk have to do with whether you tongue or glissando from one note to another??? Wasn't that the original question? I thought this was a trombone list! From: "Jeff Albert" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 21:01:35 -0500 To: , "'Raymond Horton'" , , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1446] Re: Lassus and overplayed music
-----Original Message----From: owner-TROMBONE-L@listproc.samford.edu [mailto:owner-TROMBONEL@listproc.samford.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Carmichael Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 8:33 PM To: Raymond Horton; sabutin@mindspring.com; TROMBONEL@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1442] Re: Lassus and overplayed music Whether you choose to play or not play is your decision. I just can't seem to find where anybody has answered the original question--do you tongue the G-A-G-A or glissando? I do believe that is all the writer asked.
That was answered way back in the discussionÉitÕs up to you. opinions that went each way. From: emrose79@sonic.net Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 19:06:29 -0700 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1447] Question for Adrian
There were
Adrian, I just looked at my copy of the July 2004 ITA Journal. Why does the cover picture of Denis Wick show him getting out of the car on the wrong side? and... a little further in the mag there is an ad for "The Trombone Stick".. it says that it can be "(dis) connected in a twinkling".. ok, I give up... are you supposed to connect it while you are in the bathroom???? (a big wide grin) Ed
From: "Raymond Horton" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:53:59 -0400 To: , , "sabutin" Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1448] Re: Lassus and overplayed music I don't see what the complaining is about. This was an excellent, thought provoking discussion, and I'm glad Sam brought it up. Racism is perhaps the most serious problem in the world today (obviously, since we are still blowing each other up based on race, ethnicity, and religion every day) and if something we do as musicians and trombone players is continuing to make it worse, we should know about it. We didn't come to any hard and fast conclusions, but at least we are all more knowledgeable about the background of some of the literature that we have all played and will continue to play, and if this list isn't here for that purpose, than what IS it here for, for God's sake? Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra ----- Original Message ----From: paulnshelly
To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 9:46 PM overplayed music
Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1445] Re: Lassus and
Good point, Roger, and thanks for the
reminder!
Sam, please carry this stuff back to your place, where
it belongs...
Tired of the constant ranting, Paul (who is leaving for an entire week of vacation and has you off, Sam, so don't bother firing back!) already turned
Paul Hill Bass Tbn
Tucson ----- Original Message ----From: Roger Carmichael
To: Raymond Horton ; sabutin@mindspring.com ; TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 6:15 PM and overplayed music
Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1440] Re: Lassus
Whoa! What does all this race talk have to do with whether you tongue or glissando from one note to another??? Wasn't that the original question? I thought this was a trombone list! From: Earl Needham Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:59:32 -0700 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1449] Re: Lassus and overplayed music At 07:53 PM 8/9/2004, Raymond Horton wrote: >I don't see what the complaining is about. This was an excellent, thought >provoking discussion, and I'm glad Sam brought it up. Racism is perhaps >the most serious problem in the world today (obviously, since we are still >blowing each other up based on race, ethnicity, and religion every day) >and if something we do as musicians and trombone players is continuing to >make it worse, we should know about it. We didn't come to any hard and >fast conclusions, but at least we are all more knowledgeable about the >background of some of the literature that we have all played and will >continue to play, and if this list isn't here for that purpose, than what >IS it here for, for God's sake? Isn't there a nice old quote, something along the lines of -"No two people can remain enemies while making music together"? Or am I deluded? Thanks, Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk
From: Dave Tall Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 21:10:09 -0600 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1450] Re: Lassus and overplayed music At 06:46 PM 8/9/2004 -0700, paulnshelly wrote: >>>> Good point, Roger, and thanks for the reminder! Sam, please carry this stuff back to your place, where it belongs... <<<< Personally, I don't think that the history, including the social history, of often-played trombone works (or musics in general, for that matter) are an inappropriate topic for this list. It is easy to filter them by subject, just as it is easy to filter the SOM vs trombotine vs ghee lubricant discussions. A discussion among a wide variety of participants with one common nexus but many disparate experiences, such as this, will likely not interest everyone all of the time. >>>> Tired of the constant ranting, Paul (who is leaving for an entire week of vacation and has already turned you off, Sam, so don't bother firing back!) <<<< However, I don't think that saying "I'm going to ignore you now, and rather than just doing so, I'm going to tell you so I can feel like I got the last word in, lalalalalalala I can't hear you" does much to further dialogue. But that's just my opinion. >>>>
Dave Tall Bass Trombonist New Mexico Symphony From: sabutin Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 23:26:38 -0400 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1451] Fwd: RE: Re: Lassus and overplayed music >Whoa! What does all this race talk have to do with whether you
>tongue or glissando from one note to another??? Wasn't that the >original question? I thought this was a trombone list! > > If you live in a vacuum...it's hard to get any breath support. S. From: emrose79@sonic.net Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:34:42 -0700 Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1452] Re: Lassus and overplayed music OK, Dave.... since you brought it up....... just how DOES ghee lubricant compare with SOM (and just what is ghee lubricant)? (again with a big wide grin) Ed Dave Tall wrote: > SOM vs trombotine vs ghee >lubricant discussions. > > > From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:44:55 -0500 (EST) To: emrose79@sonic.net Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1453] Ghee On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 emrose79@sonic.net wrote: > OK, Dave.... since you brought it up....... just how DOES ghee > lubricant compare with SOM (and just what is ghee lubricant)? > (again with a big wide grin) Ed Clarified butter. It doesn't go rancid in heat as butter with solids will. You should compare it to a light grade of olive oil for slide lube. Carole Nowicke cnowicke@indiana.edu From: emrose79@sonic.net Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:51:11 -0700 Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1454] Re: Ghee
Hmmm.... should that be extra-virgin?... green olives or black olives? (now my tongue is sticking out of my big wide grin!) Ed Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science wrote: >On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 emrose79@sonic.net wrote: > > > >>OK, Dave.... since you brought it up....... just how DOES ghee >>lubricant compare with SOM (and just what is ghee lubricant)? >>(again with a big wide grin) Ed >> >> > >Clarified butter. It doesn't go rancid in heat as butter with solids will. >You should compare it to a light grade of olive oil for slide lube. > > >Carole Nowicke >cnowicke@indiana.edu > > > > From: sabutin Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 23:55:56 -0400 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1455] Re: Lassus and overplayed music Good point, Roger, and thanks for the reminder! Sam, please carry this stuff back to your place, where it belongs... Tired of the constant ranting, Paul (who is leaving for an entire week of vacation and has already turned you off, Sam, so don't bother firing back!) Paul Hill Bass Tbn Tucson ----- Original Message ----From: Roger Carmichael To: Raymond Horton ; sabutin@mindspring.com ; TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 6:15 PM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1440] Re: Lassus and overplayed music
Whoa! What does all this race talk have to do with whether you tongue or glissando from one note to another??? Wasn't that the original question? I thought this was a trombone list! ========================================================================= == Well, since Paul is on vacation, I guess I'll just have to make this point to the rest of the trombone-l. Binary thinking is very limiting. Tongue or slur, tongue or slur. On or off, off or on? We are human beings. We have CHOICES. A choice whether to tongue OR slur it. Maybe a little of both. Maybe a little of both on different days. Slow gliss, fast gliss, or somewhere in between? WHICH tongue? What's the tempo? What's the volume? With whom are we playing it, and in what style does the ensemble feel most comfortable? How does the room sound? All boomy and full of echoes? Maybe we should back off the gliss stuff a little, if so. What size and style of equipment are we playing? A nice light gliss on a small bore horn can become a cumbersome smear on a slide tuba. Gotta show some respect for the music if not the composer, right??? Written in the 1920s? Probably had Pryor-style players in mind. Light, quick and expressive, like a good Irish tenor.
Not like Chaliapin. (A famous...and famously broad...Russian bass of the period.) And of course...should we play it in the first place? Life is not a true or false quiz. And neither should be music. And as far as "please carry this stuff back to your place, where it belongs..." I'VE been HERE a long while. What...8, 9 years? I used to think of it as home. It was a place where people talked regularly about more important things than slide lube and Fillmore's little eighth notes. No more. If it had remained so, I would not have started "my place" in the FIRST place. I very rarely post here anymore, because most of the threads simply do not much interest me. This one did. Sorry if I offended anyone. Return to normal vacation status, if you so desire. Over and out. S.
From: Larry White Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 21:15:15 -0700 To: timothy.a.richardson@us.army.mil Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1456] Re: Lassus and overplayed music Onward Christian Soldiers is a and good lyrics, good traditional hymn, stirring tune
Was not Onward christian Soldiers originally written for Sunday School children by some British author?
Larry White Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC 417 BSB DPW - ERMD wrote: Re: [TROMBONE-L:1401] Re: Lassus and overplayed music
-----Original Message----From: sabutin [mailto:sabutin@mindspring.com] Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 10:22 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1404] Re: Lassus and overplayed music
< snip> Why SHOULDN'T we "go there"?
This man Fillmore WAS a racist. So was 99% of American society of European descent, at the time he was writing. He was a representative of his time. Nothing more, nothing less, as was the anti-Semite So the next time you feel compelled to play this music...at LEAST try to make the audience aware of its societal significance during the time it was written.
This is a debt that America MUST pay if it is ever its shameful racist past.
going to rise above
Later...
Sam Burtis
You make good points. The difficulty is what to do with them. Lassus is a catchy crowdpleaser, not deep music but a good program choice in lighter venues. If, that is, you ignore some of the connotations. Similarly, Barnacle Bill the Sailor is about the joys of drunken men beating and raping their girlfriends. Nice tune, and that trombonist from the Netherlands Navy did an awesome job of it, if you ignore the connotations. Onward Christian Soldiers is a good traditional hymn, stirring tune and good lyrics, if you ignore its use by the racist survivalist rightwing kooks as their anthem. Offensiveness is not just due to racism.
I'm not sure what the answer is. Can we separate the music from the context? If we play Lassus for a group of kids today, there is zero chance they know anything of the history, or of Fillmore's attitudes, or of the prevailing attitudes when it was written. They can separate the music from the context, they haven't a clue. But we do. If we sing OCS in my church, probably none of the members know it is proudly sung down the block in the KKK meeting hall too. But I do.
I agree, we there.
SHOULD go there.
I'm not sure what to do when we get
.
From: "Phil Brink" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 23:23:04 -0500 To: , Cc: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1457] Re: Ghee Ah HAH! Extra-virgin slide treatment! I like it!
Phil ----- Original Message ----From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 10:44 PM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1453] Ghee > > On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 emrose79@sonic.net wrote: > > > OK, Dave.... since you brought it up....... just how DOES ghee > > lubricant compare with SOM (and just what is ghee lubricant)? > > (again with a big wide grin) Ed > > Clarified butter. It doesn't go rancid in heat as butter with solids will. > You should compare it to a light grade of olive oil for slide lube. > > > Carole Nowicke > cnowicke@indiana.edu >