September of THURSDAY SEPTEMBER by alicejenny

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									28 September 2000                                Page 1 of 177

                  THURSDAY, 28 SEPTEMBER 2000

                              ____



              PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

                              ____



The House met at 14:02.



The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe

a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.



ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col

000.



                       NOTICES OF MOTION



Mr M J MAHLANGU: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that

on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf

of the ANC:



 That the House -



 (1) notes that sunset tomorrow marks the start of the

       Jewish New Year, heralding in the year 5761 on the
28 September 2000                              Page 2 of 177


     Hebrew calendar;



 (2) recognises that this is one of the most solemn

     festivals in the Jewish religion; and



 (3) wishes all of the Jewish community Shana Tova, a

     happy, prosperous and peaceful year and well over the

     fast.



[Applause.]



Mr D K MALULEKE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that

on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf

of the DP:



 That the House -



 (1) notes and appreciates the Democratic Alliance's ``Put

     the People First'' campaign in which the Leader of

     the Official Opposition, Mr Tony Leon, travels

     through the country to meet with the people and to

     experience first-hand the concerns and predicaments

     of all the people of South Africa ...

[Interjections.]
28 September 2000                              Page 3 of 177


 (2) notes that the ANC-SACP-Cosatu tripartite alliance

     partners are more concerned with their ideological

     mind games and jobs and positions for themselves than

     having concern for the needs of the people;



 (3) expresses concern that the elected representatives of

     the tripartite alliance negated their election

     promises, namely ``a better life for all'' and ``jobs

     for all'', and instead only delivered jobs for a

     select few and a better life for a privileged few ...



[Interjections.]



 (4) urges Mr Leon to continue with the ``Put the People

     First'' campaign and thereby give fresh impetus to

     the idea of one South Africa for all its people.



[Interjections.]



Inkosi M W HLENGWA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice

that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on

behalf of the IFP:



 That the House -
28 September 2000                                Page 4 of 177


 (1) notes that -



     (a) a very successful celebration of Heritage Day

         took place at KwaDukuza in the Kingdom of

         KwaZulu-Natal on 24 September 2000;



     (b) His Majesty, the King of the Zulus, in his

         address to his nation, emphasised his

         dissatisfaction with the silence of the President

         of the Republic of South Africa and reiterated

         the fact that the position of His Majesty is

         exactly as it was when His Majesty articulated

         the gravity of this situation in the public

         meeting of the Amakhosi on 15 January 2000 at

         Mangosuthu Technikon Stadium;



     (c) the great concern expressed by His Majesty the

         King that he was not consulted about the

         municipal demarcation process which infringed

         upon His Majesty's territorial integrity and the

         grave consequences thereof if this matter is not

         resolved; and



     (d) His Majesty the King recommitted his nation to
28 September 2000                               Page 5 of 177


           peaceful negotiations to settle the demarcation

           problems ...

[Time expired.]



Mr J F VAN WYK: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on

the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of

the ANC:



 That the House -



 (1) notes that the new tobacco regulations banning

     smoking in public places will come into operation

     tomorrow;



 (2) believes that this impressive move is a clear

     indication that the ANC-led Government wants to

     ensure that we live in a healthy environment;



 (3) welcomes the implementation of these new regulations

     by the Department of Health; and



 (4) calls on the people to uphold these new regulations.



[Applause.]
28 September 2000                                Page 6 of 177


Mr D M BAKKER: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on

the next sitting day of the House I will move:



 That the House -



 (1) notes the stark reality of rising unemployment in

     South Africa and that -



     (a) in the past year, 149 000 jobs were lost in the

         formal sector of the economy; and



     (b) at this rate, another 408 people, more than all

         the members in this House, will today face the

         predicament of being without an income and will

         have to face the bleak prospect of finding

         another livelihood; and



 (2) calls on -



     (a) the ANC Government to address this problem with

         the gravity it deserves; and



     (b) its Cosatu alliance partner to start behaving in

         a responsible manner, because South Africa simply
28 September 2000                              Page 7 of 177


         cannot afford to have a labour union that has no

         regard for the unemployed people in South Africa.



Chief N Z MTIRARA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that

on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf

of the UDM:



 That the House -



 (1) notes that it is a matter of grave concern that the

     President has unilaterally postponed the long-awaited

     meeting with traditional leaders, thus exacerbating

     the confusion created by his Government when it

     proceeded to complete municipal demarcations without

     consulting the traditional leaders on boundaries

     affecting their areas of jurisdiction;



 (2) registers its rejection of a tendency by the

     President to treat the traditional leaders with

     contempt, and sees this as a pattern that is intended

     to marginalise the traditional authorities;



 (3) views with perturbation the delay by the Government

     in announcing the date of the elections, which
28 September 2000                              Page 8 of 177


     appears to be a closely guarded secret to which only

     the ruling party is privy; and



 (4) proposes that elections be shifted to a later date to

     avoid the disruption of the examinations because, if

     elections are held in November, teachers who usually

     officiate in the elections will be busy with

     examinations.



Ms D M MOROBI: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on

the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of

the ANC:



 That the House -



 (1) notes that special agents from the Kimberley

     Organised Crime Investigation Unit, the SANDF and the

     National Prosecuting Authority's Kimberley office

     have smashed a massive arms smuggling ring operating

     at an SANDF ammunition depot;



 (2) commends all those involved in the arrests for their

     hard work; and
28 September 2000                              Page 9 of 177


 (3) calls upon the SANDF to maintain strict control over

     its arms inventories in keeping with the proposed new

     Firearms Control Bill.



[Applause.]



Mrs P DE LILLE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on

the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of

the PAC:



 That the House -



 (1) notes that, in terms of the law, any person is

     compelled to make a statement to the police and to

     furnish the required information under oath;



 (2) recognises that the Ministers of Safety and Security

     and for Justice and Constitutional Development have

     failed to provide the necessary information that they

     claim they have to arrest the Cape Town bombers;



 (3) notes that it is nearly two weeks since they made

     such claims;
28 September 2000                             Page 10 of 177


 (4) calls on the attorney-general to subpoena both

     Ministers to provide the information;



 (5) is of the opinion that, should they refuse, they must

     both be arrested for misleading the public; and



 (6) otherwise requests the Ministers to confirm or deny

     whether they have furnished the information or not.



Dr A I VAN NIEKERK: Mevrou die Speaker, ek gee hiermee

kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die FA sal

voorstel:



 Dat die Huis -



 (1) die verdere beheermaatreëls wat ingestel is om die

     uitbraak van bek-en-klouseer in KwaZulu-Natal hok te

     slaan, steun;



 (2) kennis neem dat die uitgebreide maatreëls en die slag

     van duisende diere groot ontwrigting en finansiële

     verliese vir die landbousektor inhou;



 (3) van mening is dat die Regering die persone wat
28 September 2000                             Page 11 of 177


      finansieel deur die maatreëls benadeel word vir hulle

      verliese sal moet vergoed; en



 (4) die Departement van Landbou versoek om so spoedig

      moontlik die basis en omvang van vergoeding aan

      persone en instansies wat verliese gely het, aan te

      kondig.

(Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)



[Dr A I VAN NIEKERK: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice

that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the

FA:



 That the House -



 (1) supports the further control measures implemented to

      contain the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in

      KwaZulu-Natal;



 (2) notes that the extensive measures and the slaughter

      of thousands of animals entail major disruption and

      financial loss for the agricultural sector;



 (3) is of the opinion that the Government will have to
28 September 2000                               Page 12 of 177


     compensate those persons on whom these measures have

     had a financially detrimental effect for their

     losses; and



 (4) requests the Department of Agriculture to announce as

     soon as possible the basis and extent of compensation

     to persons and institutions that have suffered

     losses.]



Mev P W CUPIDO: Mevrou die Speaker, ek gee hiermee kennis

dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die DP sal

voorstel:



 Dat die Huis -



 (1) kennis neem dat -



     (a) die hulplyn vir bejaardes, genaamd HEAL, aan die

            einde van September 2000 gestaak word as gevolg

            van 'n tekort aan fondse;



     (b) die Minister bevestig het dat die SA Nasionale

            Raad vir Bejaardes R460 000 aangevra het om die

            hulplyn oop te hou; en
28 September 2000                                Page 13 of 177


       (c) die Minister weier om 'n opdrag te gee dat die

           departement fondse beskikbaar stel;



 (2) die Regering versoek om onmiddellik van die Lotto se

       opbrengs wat bedoel is vir welsyn beskikbaar te stel

       om hierdie noodsaaklike hulplyn oop te hou; en



 (3)    kennis neem dat, in die lig van die voortdurende

        mishandeling van bejaardes, die DP eis dat hierdie

        aangeleentheid as 'n saak van dringendheid gehanteer

        word.

(Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)



[Mrs P W Cupido: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that

on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the DP:



 That the House -



 (1) notes that -



       (a) the helpline for the elderly, called HEAL, will

           be discontinued at the end of September 2000 due

           to a lack of funds;
28 September 2000                             Page 14 of 177


     (b) the Minister has confirmed that the SA National

         Council of the Aged has requested R460 000 to

         keep the helpline open; and



     (c) the Minister refuses to instruct the department

         to make funds available;



 (2) requests the Government immediately to make available

     some of the proceeds of the Lotto, which are intended

     for welfare, in order to keep this essential helpline

     open; and



 (3) notes that, in the light of the continued abuse of

     the elderly, the DP insists that this issue be dealt

     with as a matter of urgency.]



Mrs L R MBUYAZI: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that

on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf

of the IFP:



 That the House -



 (1) notes that -
28 September 2000                              Page 15 of 177


     (a) the world is witnessing the phenomenon of

           inflexibility in the supply of crude oil, leading

           to record high prices; and



     (b) oil is a finite resource which will run out as a

           result of extensive exploitation; and



 (2) moves that alternative sources of energy be

     investigated by our Government with particular

     emphasis on solar energy with which we as a country

     are abundantly blessed.



Mr S T BELOT: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on

the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of

the ANC:



 That the House -



 (1) notes that -



     (a) an agreement for co-operation between Cape Town,

           St Petersburg and Moscow was signed yesterday;

           and
28 September 2000                             Page 16 of 177


     (b) the main focus of this agreement is in the field

         of health;



 (2) believes that agreements and co-operation of this

     nature enhance people-to-people solidarity across the

     globe; and



 (3) welcomes such co-operation and hopes that these

     cities will learn from one another in developing

     strategies to improve health standards of the people.



[Applause.]



Dr S J GOUS: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on

the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of

the New NP:



 That the House -



 (1) notes -



     (a) with grave concern the one-sided reports that are

         surfacing from some members of the Presidential

         Aids Advisory Panel, the latest being that Aids
28 September 2000                              Page 17 of 177


           dissidents are questioning the evidence that Aids

           is even contagious or sexually transmitted; and



     (b) that these one-sided reports will be countered by

           reports from others on the Presidential Aids

           Advisory Panel, and that the final report from

           this panel will undoubtedly end in a stalemate

           because of the perplexing composition of this

           panel; and



 (2) expresses its concern that the Aids dissidents appear

     to have the ear of the President and the Minister of

     Health, which results in confusing and mixed signals

     being sent to the people of South Africa and which is

     counterproductive in our fight against Aids.



Prof L M MBADI: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on

the next sitting day of the House I will move on behalf of

the UDM:



 That the House -



 (1) notes with dismay the British government website

     warning potential tourists to South Africa of the
28 September 2000                             Page 18 of 177


     high level of crime;



 (2) takes special note of the claim on the website that

     South Africa has the highest number of recorded rapes

     in the world;



 (3) recognises the huge damage that this type of negative

     publicity causes to our tourism industry;



 (4) nonetheless, acknowledges that crime is a daily

     reality in South Africa that must be addressed by

     Government as a matter of extreme urgency; and



 (5) urges Government, in the light of the job-creating

     potential of tourism, to do everything in its power

     to ensure the safety and security of all tourists

     visiting our country.



Mr H P CHAUKE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on

the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of

the ANC:



 That the House -
28 September 2000                              Page 19 of 177


 (1) notes that the University of Stellenbosch is awarding

     an honorary doctorate to Dr Beyers Naudé;



 (2) regards this as a tribute to the role played by Dr

     Naudé for the liberation of the oppressed people in

     South Africa; and



 (3) congratulates Dr Naudé on this award from the

     University of Stellenbosch.



[Applause.]



Mr J T LOUW: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on

the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of

the ANC:



 That the House -



 (1) notes that -



     (a) three men were crushed to death when the truck

           they were travelling in hit the top of the

           Woodstock bridge on the N1 in Cape Town on

           Wednesday evening; and
28 September 2000                             Page 20 of 177


     (b) this is not the first incident on that road;



 (2) expresses its condolences to the families of the

     deceased; and



 (3) calls on the local authorities and engineers to look

     at this problem.



[Applause.]



Ms R TALJAARD: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on

the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of

the DP:



 That the House -



 (1) notes -



     (a) the link between effective anticorruption

          strategies, investment and trade; and



     (b) findings by the World Bank and the IMF that per

          capita income can be doubled by an effective

          legal system and an active anticorruption
28 September 2000                               Page 21 of 177


           strategy; and



 (2) calls on the Government to prioritise a more active

     anticorruption strategy by -



     (a) giving serious attention to a DP Private Members'

           Legislative Proposal to amend the existing

           Corruption Act;



     (b) signing the Convention on the Prevention of

           Corrupt Business Transactions; and



     (c) giving credence to the Government's commitments

           made at the National Anticorruption Conference

           held in Cape Town in 1998 to overhaul the

           anticorruption legislative regime in South

           Africa.



Mr A G LYLE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on

the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of

the ANC:



 That the House -
28 September 2000                                Page 22 of 177


 (1) notes that -



     (a) the ferry Express Samina ran into a rocky islet

         off the holiday island of Paros and sank in gale

         force conditions late on Tuesday; and



     (b) 62 people lost their lives in Greece's worst

         maritime disaster;



 (2) expresses its sincere condolences to the families of

     the deceased; and



 (3) wishes those injured a speedy recovery.



[Applause.]



                    CONGRATULATIONS TO SPEAKER



                        (Draft Resolution)



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move

without notice:



 That the House -
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 (1) notes that our Speaker, Dr Frene Ginwala, has been

     honoured in India with the Priyadarshni Academy

     Global 2000 Award for promoting human rights and

     democratic values;



 (2) further notes that tonight she will receive the Woman

     of the Year award bestowed by the University of

     Pretoria;



 (3) recognises the invaluable contribution that the

     Speaker has made to the building of democracy and the

     transformation of Parliament; and



 (4) congratulates Dr Ginwala on being awarded these

     honours which bestow prestige on the House, on

     Parliament and on the South African nation.



[Applause.]



The SPEAKER: Order! Are there any objections? [Laughter.]



Agreed to.



The SPEAKER: I express my sincere appreciation to the House
28 September 2000                              Page 24 of 177


and its members.



          RECOMMENDATIONS OF CONFERENCE ON RACISM



                    (Subject for Discussion)



Ms D P S JANA: Madam Speaker, His Excellency Deputy

President Zuma and hon members, a very hearty word of

congratulations to the Human Rights Commission, especially

to Dr Barney Pityana, on successfully convening a National

Conference on Racism at the request of our President Mbeki.

Not unexpectedly, this conference aroused a storm of

criticism against both President Mbeki and Dr Pityana.



It is said that President Mbeki has shifted the national

focus from reconciliation to racism, that the enormous

resources for the conference should rather have been

directed to the poor, and that the debate on racism is

fuelling conflict instead of promoting peace. To say the

least, such criticisms are contemptible. Racism itself is

anathema to transformation. Unity and reconciliation cannot

even begin in an environment of racism.



In fact, racism is the cause of conflicts, wars, genocides
28 September 2000                             Page 25 of 177


and tensions throughout the world. The policy of racism has

inflicted lasting inequalities, reducing masses of black

people to abject poverty. Therefore, in order to address

poverty seriously, racism has to be eliminated first. This

racism is captured in the United Nations' declaration of

apartheid as a crime against humanity, and in the

definition of racism in the Convention on the Elimination

of All Forms of Racial Discrimination as:



 ... any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference

 based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic

 origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or

 impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an

 equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms

 in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other

 field of public life.



Racism is not simply an act of prejudice, as some would

like us to believe. Every so often we hear, ``We do not

dislike blacks,''and even, ``Blacks are our best friends.''

Racism does not only involve personal attitudes, beliefs

and conscious intent. Racism is implanted in social mores,

cultural practices, laws, customs and the way institutions

operate. Racism can also materialise from seemingly neutral
28 September 2000                             Page 26 of 177


practices. There can be no doubt that in a historically

uneven environment like ours, where there are gross

inequities, arising from racial discrimination, any race-

neutral policy will predictably have a discriminatory

effect. Racism is, in fact, the principal axis for

inequalities in all spheres of life in South African

society.



Yet there are those that protest that they do not have a

problem with race and, because they do not have a problem

with race, race does not exist, and if it does exist, then

constitutional guarantees, antiracist legislation and

corrective action can easily eliminate it. Therefore racism

is not a problem. Experiences such as those in North

America, Brazil and Australia have proved otherwise, that

despite these laws, racism continues to be a problem. There

is racism in our schools, courts, workplaces, the Police

Service, Defence Force, our homes, the media and everywhere

in our society.



Racism is a problem, and it will continue to be a problem

for as long as there is disproportionate distribution of

resources between black and white; for as long as blacks

are dependent on whites for employment, accommodation,
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business and consumer credit, recreation and general

subsistence; for as long as life chances such as housing,

education and medical care are determined by racial

markers; and for as long as there is a causal connection

between privilege and poverty.



This conference afforded us an opportunity to engage in

dialogue, to express our experiences of racism, to analyse

the nature of racism, to examine the reasons for it and

share common perspectives on how to combat racism in order

to build a nonracial, united and reconciled society and, in

so doing, promote wellbeing for all South Africans and

establish peace and stability in our country.



President Mbeki, in his address at the opening of the

conference, referred to white fears and black expectations.

His reference to white fears indeed stirred up a hornet's

nest. Does this fear translate into a fear of the unknown,

a commonly-held opinion which inevitably leads to distrust

and often hatred? Or does it stem from ignorance, which

breeds irrational myths, weird notions and unfounded

perceptions in respect of diversities?



Here I would like to relate a true account of a
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conversation between my daughter Tina, who was then six

years old, and her cousin Narissa, who was four years old.

Both were watching a dance competition on television. Tina

asked Narissa which dancers she liked. Narissa replied that

she only liked the white ones. Tina then said to Narissa:



 You are a racist. How can you like only whites, because

 whites are racist. They are responsible for apartheid and

 have done all the horrible things to black people. They

 have even sent my father to jail.



Narissa then replied:



 Well, Tina, I did not know that, but now that I do know,

 I like the black ones and I hate the white ones.



Tina quickly responded:



 But Narissa, not all whites are bad. There are some good

 whites like Uncle George Bizos.



Narissa then announced:



 Well, I do not know which ones are good and which ones
28 September 2000                             Page 29 of 177


 are bad, so I would rather hate them all.



A much more profound fear is one that springs from the

justification by the oppressor to dominate the oppressed -

that blacks are inferior. A more tangible fear is the fear

of recrimination, recrimination for fostering pain and

suffering. But the real fear is the fear of losing power,

privilege, prestige and wealth, and to forego advantages

acquired as a result of racist policies. It is this fear

that is germane to the obstinate denial that racism is a

problem in our country.



The President also referred to black expectations.

Primarily these expectations are of the total and immediate

transformation of society and the restoration of human

rights. As is the case in many countries, land here, too,

is a central issue. Land is the most important productive

source for employment, accommodation, and subsistence.

Because black people remain landless, they continue to

depend on whites. Redistribution of land must take place

soon. This is the great expectation. This is the great

black expectation.



This conference revealed that the question of racism in
28 September 2000                             Page 30 of 177


South Africa is indeed very complex. Based on its

recommendations, it is necessary to engage in a nationwide

debate; to involve leading scholars on the subject; to

sustain critique in as many disciplines as possible; to

undertake a forensic audit of the way racism impacts within

every sector and unit of our society; and to introduce

programmes to co-exist, which means learning to respect and

accept diversity as equals.



The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, can you

take your seat, please.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, may I

raise a point of order?



The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Point of order

granted.



The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, we are

discussing a very important subject, the subject of racism

in our society, and yet members from the other side are

involved in conversations. They are not even listening to

the debate. [Interjections.] Could you please call them to

order, Comrade Chair.
28 September 2000                             Page 31 of 177


The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order! Hon Sheila, I

am calling for order. Pay attention to the Chair. Can I

remind all hon members that, really, this is an important

debate. Can we give it the attention that it deserves and

listen to the debate from speaker to speaker. I would

appreciate it if we could conduct ourselves in that manner.

You may continue, hon member.



Ms D P S JANA: Co-existence programmes must be introduced

at all levels of learning institutions, at all levels of

government and, in fact, in all structures of society.

Ultimately, democracy is about coexistence.



The findings must be discussed and debated in all relevant

fora, including Parliament, so that they can influence

policies. The Human Rights Commission must be adequately

resourced and empowered to monitor the evaluation

mechanisms so as to ensure the systematic elimination of

racism stage by stage. The problem of racism must remain on

the national agenda for as long as is necessary, and racism

must stay on the international agenda, because it is a

historically structured form of behaviour.



Racism can be traced to the engineering of imperialists and
28 September 2000                             Page 32 of 177


colonialists, which resulted in the devaluing of the non-

European identity, beginning with slavery and the pillaging

of our continent, and followed by military invasions and

conquests.



We need to collaboratively prepare for the Third United

Nations World Conference Against Racism, Racial

Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance to be

held in South Africa next year. [Time expired.] [Applause.]



Mr W J SEREMANE: Chairperson, hon Deputy Speaker, hon

members, despite the howling, indeed somebody rose on a

point of order and said that this is a very serious topic.

I would gladly agree with that person, and I am surprised

that the benches are so empty on that side.



Let me reiterate that the fact that South Africa has gone

through a devastating history of conquest, manifesting

itself in colonialism, oppression and downright fascist and

racist apartheid, cannot be ignored or denied by even the

simplest of the citizens. Where the nefarious devastation

of apartheid is not known, such ignorance serves to confirm

the depth of social engineering or indoctrination that held

sway over the minds of a section of this diverse South
28 September 2000                             Page 33 of 177


African population.



Racism is unfortunately currently on the agenda of

apartheid political messiahs, just as ``swart gevaar'' was

during the heyday of preliberation politicians. Racism

seems to be the nearest and easiest tool to use for the

legendary age-old Gagool's witch-hunt of King Solomon's

Mines.



What seems to be missing in the antiracism crusade is the

obverse side of the evil coin of racism. I maintain that

racism is the twin brother or twin sister of tribalism, or

nicely put, ethnicity. Tribalism is the obverse side of

racism. Racism takes root spontaneously and rapidly on the

very false notions of tribe or ethnicity. Those who are

negatively obsessed with racism are so because of the

nurturing that they have had in ethnicity or, bluntly put,

tribalism. It is superfluous to attempt to debate the

meaning of tribalism and ethnicity.



Tribes, or ethnic entities, have the fallacious and myopic

notion that they or theirs are superior in themselves. The

tribes take unkindly to outsiders, whom they call boys or

girls, or the unitiated or uncircumcised, criticising or
28 September 2000                             Page 34 of 177


questioning them. Critics are seen as witches to be burnt

on some tribal or national bonfire. One should conform or

be damned as the enemy of the people, or of liberation, and

be ready for the pyre, if one criticises.



It is not strange that Africa - South Africa is no

exception - finds it very easy to shout, ``Wolf, wolf!

Racist, racist!'' when things seem to be tough - that is

socially, politically and especially economically. Blame

failures on racism! Blame failures on reactionary,

antirevolutionary forces! Blame witchcraft for all your

ills and failures.



African presidents have a tendency to most often size up

the situation and decide their line of action and vision

extraordinary. Amongst these, the African leaders will

conveniently proclaim national unity and denounce

tribalism, which is correct, but they soon discover that

manipulating tribal affiliations and invoking racist

paranoia is essential to attaining more power and

preserving that selfsame power. The appeal to the base

sentiments of racism and tribalism is very attractive to

leaders or a people with grandiose dreams veering closely

to political mirages.
28 September 2000                             Page 35 of 177


The colonialists played their tune on the racist tribal

harp and came up with the divide-and-rule strategy. This

corrosive threat seemed to be sustained throughout the

phases of South African bigotry, up to the present day of

hunt-for-racists-and-blacks- reactionaries. It is, indeed,

very true that the best authority one can ever hope to

become is that of being an authority on one's own

experiences and sufferings.



Without being petty and personalising gigantic national

issues, I have seen brutality in respect of apartheid

racism and tribalism. To this day, in our own country, one

still experiences bigots spewing racial hatred and

tribalism from all sides of our demographic spectrum.

Stereotyping is the benchmark of bigotry with the embattled

white and black groups, both led by some self-appointed

demagogue wishing to fulfil egocentric goals draped in

dubious national or continental garb and rhetoric.



In the days of apartheid, whites were inclined to equate

``white'' with ``right'' and ``might''. Today, it seems,

blacks believe that all blacks formerly oppressed are

angels and could not be accused of racism, let alone

tribalism. Of course, those notions are anything but true.
28 September 2000                               Page 36 of 177


[Interjections.] Racism is not a monopoly of any one

section of our country, be it white or black, nor is

tribalism the character of blacks only. [Interjections.]



I know what it means to be branded a kaffir or a Bantu. I

also know what it means to be hounded at school, on the

playgrounds, at worship and in the neighbourhood as

Lekwerekwere, isilwani soMtswana and to be subjected to all

the negative concomitant stereotypes and fallacious and

derogatory epithets and treatments.



Ours is a deeply hurt and scarred society that yearns for a

very deep healing process. The wound has to be treated, and

that is good. The festering boils need to be opened and

treated and, thus, healed. Yes, this is painful, but if it

is meant to heal, it is acceptable. Adding salt to the

wounds raked up for vindictive motives is no cure at all.

Hitler and Idi Amin were obsessed, and I hope we are not

going to be obsessed by our own version of racism à la

McCarthyism. [Interjections.]



In short, apartheid, or racism in reserve, is

counterproductive and retrogressive. No sane leadership

should take the country in that direction. Bandwagon or no
28 September 2000                             Page 37 of 177


bandwagon, fruitpicker, journalist or not, our country must

be directed away from the morbid and self-righteous,

holier-than-thou and neo-ethnic racial cleansing.

[Interjections.] We have hurt one another, granted, some

more than others, but we need to overcome the hurt, the

hate and the prejudice so unwisely inflicted upon

ourselves. Acrimonious finger-pointing and self-righteous

pontificating will not eradicate poverty, crime, Aids, the

abuse of women and children, unemployment and other

sociopolitical and economic ills, let alone this very

scourge called tribalism which is eating us from within.



The Kempton Park, that is, the Codesa miracle needs to be

sustained. Perhaps we need to innovate the politics of deep

and profound forgiveness and reconciliation, based on human

dignity, mutual respect, compassion, justice and the

imperatives of our country's Constitution. [Interjections.]



We need to follow in the footsteps of great people like

Nelson Rolihlanhla Mandela on this idea. [Interjections.]

We need to follow in the great footsteps of people like

Helen Suzman and Mahatma Gandhi. If we do this, we shall

have defeated racism and tribalism when we ourselves cease

to view our environment through racist and tribalistic
28 September 2000                             Page 38 of 177


spectacles.



It would be no less than proper to close this humble

contribution to the racism-tribalism debate in the words of

one of our most noble daughters, Dr Mamphela Ramphele, as

she rouses us to the truth and hard realities of our

current stage of transition. She observes that there were a

lot of academics and clergy who spoke fearlessly of the

evils of apartheid, but we need also to speak fearlessly of

the evils of tribalism ... [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

[Applause.]



The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Mr Chairman,

just over 200 years ago, a republic which is now the most

powerful nation in the world was established. It was

established on the basis that all men are created equal.

That was the basis on which it was established. Two hundred

years later, the people in that republic are still not

satisfied that they have lived up to that fundamental

proposition. They find that racism and its effects are

still with them and they, of course, are speaking about

these problems openly. They do not regard racism coyly, as

a subject that is not to be discussed in polite society.

They are analysing the problem all the time, and they are
28 September 2000                             Page 39 of 177


endeavouring to deal with it. Both candidates for the

presidency of the United States discuss this problem all

the time.



How could one imagine that we would come along and

establish a new society on the basis of a society which,

for decades and even centuries, was based on racism, and in

which the consequences of racism are with us at all levels?

On that foundation, on which was erected a host of racist

institutions - parliaments, laws, and courts - we now come

along to build a new society, having removed what we would

call the superstructure. I am looking directly at a friend

of mine who will understand what that is. [Laughter.] We

are erecting it on an economic base which was based on

racism and all its evils. We have merely removed the

superstructure and the base still remains intact.

[Interjections.] [Applause.]



What we are talking about here is not petty prejudices.

That is not what we are discussing. I do not mind it if

some shop assistant calls me ``boy''. It is irrelevant. I

am more concerned with things such as residential

segregation, the absence of health facilities and the

skewed kind of education that we experience. Those are the
28 September 2000                              Page 40 of 177


problems that we are faced with, and they are recognised by

serious thinkers from all sides in this country.

[Interjections.] I say ``they are recognised'', but one of

the peculiarities of South Africa is that there is actually

very little serious study of the problem of racism.



If one goes into any of our libraries at the universities

or into any of the bookshops, one will find that they are

very different from the libraries and bookshops in other

parts of the world, where there is a vast amount of

literature on racism and its effects. Here, in our country,

they banned such studies and the result is that very often

people are not   with this problem and how it can be

tackled. We need to have very serious studies on this

problem and to really identify a programme of action that

will enable us to achieve the objectives that are enshrined

in our Constitution.



I am always arguing with my friends on all sides of the

House, and some of my Afrikaner friends have said to me:

``Maar, Minister, julle is die Regering. Hoekom kla julle?

Julle moet regeer.'' [But Minister, you are the Government.

Why are you complaining? You must govern.] Well, there is a

point which we also have to take into account. In the
28 September 2000                             Page 41 of 177


United States the people who suffer the ravages of racism

are a minority. They are not in power. In our country, it

is a very different situation in that the people who

suffered from racism are in power. Therefore, the challenge

is not only for those who were in power, but it is for

those who are in power now. That means all of us have to

work out a programme of action to deal with racism in a

very intelligent manner that will operate to the advantage

of our country in the long term.



I have looked at the document from the conference on racism

that has been circulated, and I was a bit surprised to find

out that the Human Rights Commission is expected to draw up

a programme to deal with racism. They are not in power.

They are creatures of statute. They are appointed. They are

not democratically elected. I do not think that people in

that position can do more than monitor the progress, or

otherwise, that is made with regard to racism. But surely

they cannot be entrusted with the sovereign task of working

out a proper programme for the elimination of racism in

this country at all levels?



I believe that we must not be coy about this subject. We

must not be shy to discuss it, after all, we used to have
28 September 2000                             Page 42 of 177


arguments and discussions with the proponents of apartheid.

We used to argue with all of them. Dr Verwoerd and others

used to come to my own home and have arguments with my

father about apartheid. We used to argue with them openly.

They would justify their point of view, and we would tell

them that we were opposed to it.



Similarly, we must discuss racism openly, and we must be

very careful about the possibility of sweeping things under

the carpet, because if we do that we face the choice of

either reform from above or revolution from below, a risk

which many rulers in the world have faced. If we do not

deal with this problem, we will get more and more

discontent, our society will become more and more unstable

and, in the end, nobody can benefit from a society that we

are failing to create.



Therefore nonracialism is in the interests of all of us,

everybody, white or black, capitalist or worker. We really

need to tackle the problems of racism in a manner that will

do credit to our country and also serve as an example to a

world to which we preached for decades about the evils of

apartheid and racism. We cannot now, suddenly, tell the

world that all the things we said in all the international
28 September 2000                              Page 43 of 177


organisations and all the different states were really not

as serious as we painted then, that they are something that

can just disappear because we have established a democratic

state.



We will have to take very practical, serious steps, and

those steps will have to involve participation by all

elements of our population, all sectors of our population,

universities, businesspeople, the private sector, labour

and Government. We should all be involved in this mammoth

task which may take us two or three decades before we can

say that we have achieved a tangible result.



I have a son whose speciality is studying the European

Union and how it is succeeding. He estimates it will take

us 40 years. I hope he is wrong. [Applause.]



Mr M C J VAN SCHALKWYK: Chairperson, racism exists. Many

racist practices still continue and new racist practices

have been added. The irony of our debate today is that

those who once described and fought for South Africa as one

nation, now label us as two divided parts. [Interjections.]

Those who were once accused of dividing that one nation,

now argue for one united nation. The question all of us
28 September 2000                             Page 44 of 177


should ask ourselves is whether this debate says more about

real convictions or more about narrow self-interest. Those

who understand the importance of building our country

should take the advice of Alexander Herzen that ``the point

is to open men's eyes, not to tear them out''.



The old South Africa was like a cancer patient with a

deadly tumour - the tumour of racism. Visionaries in the

form of Mandela and De Klerk stepped in and applied radical

treatment. [Interjections.] We all believed that the cancer

of racism was in remission and the patient well on the way

to recovery. Over the last year, however, we have suddenly

discovered that the tumour is back. Instead of being

described, as we were during the first five years of our

new democracy, as the rainbow nation, we are suddenly told

that we are two nations, divided again on the basis of skin

colour. This description, by emphasising our differences,

only further divides us.



The starting point of the new South Africa was formulated

in exemplary fashion by Mr Mandela in his inauguration

speech as President, and I quote:



 We enter into a covenant that we shall build a society in
28 September 2000                             Page 45 of 177


 which all South Africans, both black and white, will be

 able to walk tall without any fear in their hearts,

 assured of their inalienable right to human dignity - a

 rainbow nation at peace with itself and the world.



We started off the new South Africa with the concept of one

nation, built on newly discovered commonalities and on the

basis of a shared patriotism. If we cannot succeed in

building upon and extending that basic ideal, then black

and white and coloured and Indian in our country will be

reduced to simple co-existence on a shared piece of land

with no real reconciliation and no rainbow nation.



Die onregverdighede van apartheid was gegrond op 'n

uiterste vorm van rassisme. Diegene wat dit probeer ontken,

doen nie net dié wat onder apartheid gely het 'n onreg aan

nie, maar ook dié wat vandag steeds werk om die nalatenskap

van apartheid te oorkom.



Om egter die verlede te blameer vir al die probleme van die

Suid-Afrika van vandag, is 'n oorvereenvoudiging en in baie

gevalle 'n ontduiking van verantwoordelikheid. Om die

definisie van rassisme te beperk tot wit rassisme alleen,

is om 'n groot deel van die werklikheid te ignoreer. Die
28 September 2000                             Page 46 of 177


werklikheid is dat rassisme in alle gemeenskappe voorkom,

ongeag taal of agtergrond. (Translation of Afrikaans

paragraphs follows.)



[The injustices of apartheid were based on an extreme form

of racism. Those who try to deny this, are not only doing

the people who suffered under apartheid an injustice, but

also those who are still working today to overcome the

legacy of apartheid.



However, to blame the past for all the problems of South

Africa today is an oversimplification and, in many cases,

amounts to evading responsibility. To limit the definition

of racism to white racism only is to ignore a large part of

the reality. The reality is that racism occurs in all

communities, irrespective of language or background.]



The fundamental flaw in our present debate on racism is how

it is being conducted and what the motivation behind it is.

If the motivation is to find solutions to really build a

new nation, based on new common experiences, then the

present debate is counterproductive. If the motivation is a

more partisan political one, then it is much easier to

understand the context.
28 September 2000                                Page 47 of 177


Let us, for a moment, forget all the political

considerations and let me share with hon members how I, as

a member of a minority community, experience this debate. I

would like to make some remarks with regard to the ANC,

because it currently represents the majority of black South

Africans. The ANC's views on this issue are therefore, yes,

party-political, but its views are more than that.



The ANC is a strong political party, numerically speaking.

It controls the Government and almost, in its own words,

all levers of power. But in that position of overwhelming

political control, there seems to be an uncertainty and

sometimes an inability to accept that it is now in the

driver's seat. Like any government taking over a country

after a period of deep division, it is starting to

experience difficulties in translating its ideals into

concrete gains, because Government has limited resources.



Instead of attempting to convince all South Africans to

take co-ownership of the challenges, the ANC is rather

opting for the approach of identifying scapegoats.

[Interjections.] The way I experience the ANC is that it is

moving away from its commitment to nonracialism. The ANC of

Albert Luthuli, of Z K Matthews and of Nelson Mandela was
28 September 2000                             Page 48 of 177


undoubtedly a party committed to nonracialism, and that had

to be conceded even by its opponents.



Suddenly, though, those of us who are not members of the

ANC have experienced a change in direction. We have sensed

a change in the winds. Suddenly the concept of nonracialism

has been replaced, not by a soft version of multiracialism,

but by a stark, rigid concept of two nations on the basis

of skin colour. Coupled with that are the frequent attempts

to put white South Africans in the dock, in the sin-bin of

history.



It does not help then to occasionally, as President Mbeki

did here last week, say that not all Afrikaners and whites

should be held accountable for the past. When the issue of

historical guilt is switched on and off, depending on the

political consideration of the moment, it becomes a

divisive issue containing the seeds of resentment. One

cannot one day tell people how bad they are, or how guilty

they are, that they should be taxed only on the basis of

their skin colour, and the next day give them a pat on the

head and believe that this will provide a basis for trust

and building a strong nation on common ideals and

experiences.
28 September 2000                               Page 49 of 177


Those of us who are not in the ANC observe, in this debate,

a battle for the soul of the ANC. Yes, it is an internal

matter for the ANC, but that battle will determine the way

that our country will eventually go. It will determine if

we are able to really build a rainbow nation or whether we

will be condemned to living in two separate nations

perpetually. Many children and young people from the

minority communities are asking themselves what future they

have in this country if they will be constantly attacked

simply on the basis of their birthright. The hon ANC member

Mr Ramgobin recently wrote in the Cape Times:



 The ANC will not hold the young in the white community

 responsible for the ills and racial bigotry of their

 parents.



The reality is, however, that this is exactly what is

happening. Rhoda Kadalie, well known to many in the ANC-

benches, former South African Human Rights Commissioner,

recently made two observations that are more than just

thought-provoking. She said:



 The Government under Mbeki behaves as if it regrets its

 negotiated settlement with its former oppressors and he
28 September 2000                             Page 50 of 177


 now seems to want to punish white South Africans for this

 compromise by harping constantly on the race issue.



She also observed the following:



 Racism flourishes in contexts where it has been

 internalised to such an extent that the victim begins to

 miss it when it begins to disappear.



What is needed in South Africa is for us to address the

issue of racism through a two-pronged approach. The first

prong should be a normative, legislative one in which the

representatives of the people prescribe the manner in which

racism is to be avoided and addressed. South Africa has an

excellent Bill of Rights. We have an overabundance of

legislation and such prescriptions. By far the more

important prong is the necessity for positive action and

constructive nation-building emphasising that which binds

us, not that which divides us.



Racism is not only the absence of tolerance. It is

ignorance about our common humanity. But, apart from this

prong being the most important, it is also the more

difficult. It requires from political leaders an
28 September 2000                               Page 51 of 177


unequivocal commitment to nonracialism, because South

Africans are very adept at sensing token commitment to

nonracialism. The key to unlocking this door is, in reality

and in practice, in the hands of President Mbeki. Our

impression is that he has misplaced that key. There are

many good men and women, in the words of former President

Mandela, from all political persuasions and in all

political parties who are ready to assist President Mbeki

in unlocking that door. Chief Albert Luthuli's writings

hold, perhaps, the most pertinent advice in this regard for

his ultimate successor:



 The task is not finished. South Africa is not yet a home

 for all her sons and daughters. We could not achieve the

 new South Africa overnight, but we could begin to build

 it.]



[Applause.]



Mr J N MASHIMBYE: Mr Chairman and Deputy President, I would

like to say to Deputy Minister Matthews - Oom Joe - that I

can only concur with the things that he said.



There are two things that have never ceased to amaze me.
28 September 2000                             Page 52 of 177


The first is the dignity of the oppressed. The second is

the irony of history in that the oppressed have an

obligation imposed on them to be the ones who liberate the

oppressor, to be the ones who make sure that those who

oppressed us never cause the same suffering and that we

ourselves, who were oppressed, make sure that the

suffering, pain and humiliation that we went through is not

repeated. These two things have never ceased to amaze me.

But, because we are born of those who suffered, we will

uphold that dignity of the oppressed.



At the end of World War II, South African soldiers who had

fought side by side were rewarded and acknowledged on a

racial basis when they came back victorious from fighting a

common enemy. [Interjections.] These soldiers had faced

bullets, shells and bombs, and those things know no colour.

My grandfather, who is black, was rewarded for his

participation in World War II with a bicycle, trench coat

and a knobkerrie and, as far as I know, with no pension.

[Interjections.] The coloured soldiers were similarly

awarded with humiliating and unspeakable insults for their

contributions. Regarding the white soldiers, some of them

were rewarded with farms, with rifles and others even with

automatic entry into universities. These are people who had
28 September 2000                              Page 53 of 177


survived the same bombs, bullets and shells which know no

colour. This, clearly, was racism in action.



An HON MEMBER: That was before apartheid.



Mr J N MASHIMBYE: Somebody over there says that that was

before apartheid. I know that. Does he not know that?



Our challenge today is to ensure that our armed forces are

not defined by the example that was set at the end of World

War II. Our armed forces are like a clenched fist. But,

that clenched fist is at the end of an arm. If that arm is

not healthy, there will never be a unified Defence Force.

In the recent past the Defence ministerial commission of

inquiry into the SANDF has, in its preliminary findings,

reported, without mincing its words, that racism does exist

in the Defence Force. I will make it possible, next week on

Tuesday, for the committees of Parliament to discuss that

report.



These preliminary outcomes of the Setai commission will be

dealt with, but they have made certain observations that I

must quickly refer to. They say, in that document, that

racism in our armed forces manifests itself in many ways.
28 September 2000                             Page 54 of 177


It comes in the form of outright abusive language based on

cultural origin; failure to empower people and active

attempts to reduce their job responsibilities; harassment,

such as instituting disciplinary actions against black

members and going through with the process or leaving it in

abeyance, thus leaving a member in limbo for an indefinite

period; subjecting members to assaults and intimidating

them to ensure that they do not report the cases to the

police.



There are many other things that we can refer to. However,

what we do know is that these are outcomes of an

institutionalisation of racism. These are still evident in

many spheres of our socioeconomic life. The evils of 1910,

the evils of 1913 and the evils of 1948 will need a

programmatic intervention by the state and all of us. There

is no other way of undoing so many decades of racist

madness without such an intervention which, obviously,

cannot be done overnight.



There are many challenges imposed on us by our racist past.

Failure to meet these challenges in the early days of our

democracy would be totally disastrous. Today, the United

States of America is still confronted with a problem more
28 September 2000                             Page 55 of 177


than a century old. Only today, in the United States of

America, a heated debate is being waged on whether the

current administration should apologise for slavery or not.

It is going to be a difficult debate because it was not

challenged as early as possible.



Over the past weekend, journalist Duncan Campbell made a

number of observations on racism in some pockets of the

Unites States of America. Duncan Campbell observed that

there are groups and journals in the US, which still

promote notions such as that blacks have smaller brains,

and that many slaves were willing to be slaves. This is

quoted from a recent publication of the Ashfield Journal, a

Southern nationalist journal.



There is only one obligation that we have, and that

obligation, I repeat, is an obligation on all of us, but I

know that the amazing spirit of the oppressed will not fail

to be vigilant in carrying out that obligation. Let me end

by quoting the words of Mark Potok, quoted as well by

Duncan Campbell, when he says:



 White supremacists do not always come wearing Klan hoods,

 shaved heads or storm trooper outfits. Sometimes they
28 September 2000                             Page 56 of 177


 boast business suits and PhDs.



Let us be vigilant, let us fight racism. [Applause.]



Mr B H HOLOMISA: Chairperson ...



The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT:

[Inaudible.] [Laughter.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order!



Mr B H HOLOMISA: Chairperson, this is tantamount to

cultural intimidation on the part of the hon the Minister.

I am not a kwedini little boy, I am the leader of a party.

[Laughter.]



The racial, social and economic disparities that have been

inherited as our historical legacy remain fundamentally

unaltered after six years of a democratic dispensation in

South Africa. It is understood that a social order that has

been sustained by the exploitation of racial and cultural

differences over centuries, in order to facilitate

conquest, land dispossession and political hegemony of a

minority caste, cannot be overturned in such a short
28 September 2000                             Page 57 of 177


period. The institutionalisation of racism by the apartheid

regime blighted the psyche of generations of South Africans

of all races and hues. It is going to take a great deal of

effort by all South Africans to rid our society of the

scourge.



The ushering in of a democratic dispensation, based on a

model constitution designed to ensure the permanent demise

of racism and all forms of discrimination and oppression,

mandated the Government to formulate and adopt policies,

and to enact measures that would empower visible

transformation of the social and economic relations in a

meaningful way that would rapidly erode the material

barriers that divide the entire nation into haves and have-

nots. It cannot be said the Government is succeeding in

carrying out that mandate. Government must recognise that

racism cannot simply be erased from people's minds by

impassioned sermons and appeals. It will diminish as a

result of the alteration of the material conditions that

were deliberately created to nurture it.



The economic measures adopted by the Government exacerbate

unemployment and poverty of the vast majority of the

marginalised who continue to be the victims of racism.
28 September 2000                             Page 58 of 177


Policies, which aggravate unemployment and condemn millions

to destitute lives, cannot erase the feeling of racial

inferiority and helplessness of these people, nor change

the attitude of racial superiority of the racial

minorities, who enjoy the social and economic ascendancy

and to whom the disadvantaged must look for favours. South

Africans must agree jointly on an economic policy that will

address these social ills.



Prior to the 1994 democratic dispensation, the apartheid

opposition had succeeded in welding people of all races

into a unified force without regard to race or ethnicity.

Nonracialism and nonethnicism became fundamental principles

of our Constitution. Sadly, the spectre of racism and

ethnicity is rearing its ugly head again in the work

situation. Officials in both the public and private sector

are creating racial and ethnic fiefdoms in departments

under their control. So strong are these ethnic groupings

that merit has ceased to be the criterion of selection for

a job. It is a matter of grave concern that this is

happening at leadership level at which the good example

should have been set.



Njengokuba esazi ke uSekela-Mongameli, ngexesha
28 September 2000                               Page 59 of 177


ekwakusiliwa ngalo, kusilwelwa inkululeko, yayisaziwa into

yokuba xa amaqabane okanye amalungu oMkhonto weSizwe ewile

kwakungatshiwo ukuba awile. Kwakuye kuthiwe amajoni

omukkhonto abethile. Kodwa ngoku, emva kokuba

sikhululekile, ixhaphakile into yokuba umntu xa efika

kwisakhiwo esithile abuze: ``Hey, mangaphi amaNdiya alapha,

mangaphi amaXhosa alapha, mangaphi amaZulu alapha?''

Isizalhu soko kukuba kaloku ngoku kuyatyiwa kuyaxatyanwa.

Ke siyamcela usekela Mongamen akuba akhe uyiqwalasele nayo

le meko yobuhlanga kuba ingalibulala eli lizwe.

[Kwaqhwatywa] (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)



As the hon Deputy President knows, during the time of the

liberation struggle, it was known that when Umkhonto

weSizwe cadres had fallen, they were not said to have

fallen but it was taken in the spirit that they had hit.

However, now that we are liberated, it is common practice,

when one enters a building, to hear questions like: ``How

many Indians are here, Xhosa speaking people and Zulus?''

The reason for this is that as people are now benefiting,

quarrels are beginning to emerge. We would, therefore, like

to plead with the hon Deputy President to address this

issue of racism very seriously as it has the potential to

destroy this country. [Applause.]]
28 September 2000                             Page 60 of 177


Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, hon Minister, I want to

start my contribution to this debate by endorsing some

principles that were affirmed by the National Conference on

Racism which was held in Sandton. [Interjections.] Among

other things, the conference affirmed that all who live

here are citizens in equal measure, South Africans with

equal responsibility to give content and expression to the

founding principles of nationhood.



Most of us believe that all human beings are created in the

image of God and are equal in value, dignity and worth from

the moment of conception. Because all nations were created

by the same God from one blood, there is no individual

person with blood that is not red. We may look different on

the outside, but our inner parts and colours are the same.

This makes all people equally important, precious, and born

with inherent value that is not dependent on their

geographical location, economic status, or skin colour.



Oppression of one race group by another, oppression of one

tribe by another, and oppression of weaker nations by

stronger nations, is evil, unacceptable and ungodly, and

has to be deplored by all peace-loving citizens of our

country. The fallacy that one race group is superior to the
28 September 2000                               Page 61 of 177


others because of their skin colour, political and economic

power, or even historical advantage, must be deplored and

corrected. How this correcting is done, however, will

determine whether we will be successful in our efforts or

not.



For many years in our country, legislation was used to

separate people according to their skin colour. Family

members and loved ones were separated by apartheid laws and

policies. The majority of our people were denied freedom of

movement and fair economic activity, amongst other things.

Such evil policies caused unnecessary suffering, anger,

hatred, suspicion, and even death. Forced separation by law

divided the nation.



Let me be quick to warn that as forced separation failed in

the past, forced integration, in future, will also fail to

produce national reconciliation and unity. Forced marriages

do not last, as they do not have the bond of love and trust

necessary to keep them together.



The fight against racism can be won with the re-education

of those who were indoctrinated, and not with

confrontation. What is needed urgently in this country is
28 September 2000                             Page 62 of 177


good antiracism education, especially at primary and

secondary school level, highlighting the importance of the

content and quality of one's character. Our people must be

reminded that it is both ungodly and illegal to

discriminate against others on the basis of their skin

colour.



We must build trust and relationships, which may take some

time. With patience and determination, we can build one

nation under God, where one's skin colour is not elevated

above one's character and personality; where there will be

acceptance of our outer differences as normal; and where

all South Africans will work together for peace,

prosperity, and unity in diversity. [Applause.]



Mr P A GERBER: Mr Chairperson, I listened to my friend

Marthinus van Schalkwyk with expectations a while ago. But

I now know why his party has contracted anorexia. In almost

every speech of his he refers to whites, blacks, Indians

and coloureds, and this has been bothering members of his

own party, sitting there with him for many years. He must

stop doing that. He is wasting his talents. We are trying

to build a nation, and we want him to be part of that. I

cannot believe that he has reversed so much in his
28 September 2000                             Page 63 of 177


political thinking. [Interjections.]



Ek haal graag die antwoord aan van president Mbeki op 'n

vraag wat verlede week in hierdie Huis aan hom gestel is:



 Ek dink wanneer jy na die evolusie van ons geskiedenis

 kyk, sal jy die kwessie van die Afrikaner se aandeel in

 apartheid baie anders ontleed. Dit sal verkeerd wees om

 te sê ``Jy is 'n Afrikaner, daarom is jy verantwoordelik

 vir apartheid en is jy vervloek.''



As jy gaan kyk na die Vrouemonumentmuseum in Bloemfontein,

sal jy sien daar is foto's van swartmense wat gedurende die

Anglo-Boereoorlog in oop treintrokke weggetrok is na swart

konsentrasiekampe. Net langs dit is daar foto's van wit

vrouens en kinders wat in toe treintrokke weggetrok is na

wit konsentrasiekampe. Daar is baie ander voorbeelde in ons

land. So kom ons wees 'n slag blatant eerlik en erken dat

rassisme in Suid-Afrika nie in 1948 met die vorige NP-

regering begin is nie. Afrikaners ken rassisme en was ook

dekades lank slagoffers van wit-op-wit rassisme. Ons ken

dit nou nog.



Ek wil graag kom by die Suid-Afrikaanse
28 September 2000                             Page 64 of 177


Millenniumverklaring oor Rassisme, en wel by item 17 van

die program van aksie rakende grondhervorming wat

voorgestel word. Daar is egter 'n paar wanpersepsies met

betrekking tot grond wat ongelukkig aan die lewe gehou word

deur mense met verskuilde agendas. Die persepsie dat 87%

van alle grond in Suid-Afrika in wit hande en 13% in swart

hande sou wees, was byvoorbeeld jare gelede al verouderd.

Die suggestie dat daar te min grond in Suid-Afrika is, is

ook verkeerd.



Die persepsie dat grondeienaars, en veral boere, onwillig

is om deel te neem aan grondhervormingsinisiatiewe is 'n

gevaarlike veralgemening. Dit lyk my daar is sommige mense

in Suid-Afrika wat nie kan asemhaal nie tensy hulle iewers

in die land op 'n podium staan en boere beswadder.

Natuurlik is daar sekere boere wat hulle skuldig maak aan

sekere onwettige arbeidspraktyke, net soos daar vis-en-

tjips-kafee-eienaars is wat hulle werkers laat swaarkry, of

restaurante in Seepunt wat hulle werkers vieruur soggens

huis toe stuur, maar wanneer dit 'n boer is, is die duiwel

los. Hierdie optrede blaas rassisme aan. Ons moenie boere

kritiseer met 'n mond vol kos nie.



Die Wet op die Uitbreiding van Sekerheid van Verblyfreg was
28 September 2000                             Page 65 of 177


lankal broodnodig in Suid-Afrika. Afrikaners het respek vir

verblyfreg, want ons is al baie uitgesit, maar ek sien

deesdae 'n ongesonde situasie met betrekking tot

plaaswerkershuise. Sommige boere breek arbeiderhuise af

sodra hulle leegraak en sommige boere wil nie arbeiderhuise

verbeter nie, want doen hulle dit, moet hulle soortgelyke

geriewe aan die afgedankte werkers verskaf.



My probleem is, indien 'n wet iemand so motiveer om huise

op sy eie grond af te breek, dan dink ek daar kan dalk

onbedoelde gevolge aan daardie wet verbonde wees. Indien

dit die geval is, behoort ons daarna te kyk, net soos

president Mbeki vroeër vanjaar gesê het dat daar onbedoelde

gevolge met betrekking tot sekere arbeidswetgewing is en

dat dit verander gaan word. Net so kan daar dalk ook sekere

aspekte wees met betrekking tot hierdie wet. Ek weet nie,

maar dit is hartseer om te sien hoe mense huise afbreek in

'n land waar miljoene mense nog in sinkhokke bly. Die

wedersydse verkeerde interpretasie van hierdie wet is 'n

groot oorsaak van rassisme.



Een van die grootste apartheidsinstrumente wat veroorsaak

dat derduisende mense nog bywoners is, is die stelsel van

beskikbaarheidsgeld vir byvoorbeeld water, krag, riool,
28 September 2000                             Page 66 of 177


vullisverwydering ensovoorts. As Coca-Cola van môre af vir

'n mens 'n rekening stuur van R10 'n maand omdat daar

blikkies Coca-Cola op die winkelrakke beskikbaar is, sal jy

dink dit is 'n grap. Dit is egter dieselfde beginsel waarop

beskikbaarheidsgeld gegrond is.



Baie van die derduisende armes kan nie die maandelikse

beskikbaarheidsgeld bekostig nie. Baie leë erwe in die

platteland is spotgoedkoop, maar die gemeenskap kan nie die

beskikbaarheidsgeld bekostig nie. Nou die dag het 'n

stadsklerk vir my gesê daar is baie erwe te koop teen R500

in sy dorp, want hulle neem gereeld erwe terug by mense wat

nie die R100 'n maand beskikbaarheidsgeld kan betaal nie.

Vyf en twintig persent van die mense in die land leef op

minder as R7 'n dag; hoe gaan hulle nog R100 'n maand

beskikbaarheidsgeld betaal?



Hierdie stelsel het swartmense subtiel ontgrond en na

informele gebiede gedwing. Ons het hopeloos te veel

rompslomp as dit kom by grondbesit in dié land. Ons moet

grondbesit in Suid-Afrika dringend liberaliseer, en dit

behoort 'n meervoudige proses te wees. Die een proses moet

deur die staat gedryf word en die ander proses spontaan

deur die publiek en grondeienaars. Spontane meganismes moet
28 September 2000                              Page 67 of 177


geskep word, en ek wil vir agb lede 'n paar moontlike

voorbeelde noem.



Die onderverdeling van grond behoort baie vergemaklik te

word. Opmeetkoste kan ook drasties verlaag word indien die

diskriminasie tussen landmeters en opmeters verminder word.

Ons vind dieselfde situasie in die stads- en

streekbeplannersberoep. Baie munisipaliteite sal die grond

verniet vir 'n mens gee, maar die opmeetkoste maak dat die

grond te duur raak. Dan praat ek nie eens van die

Eerstewêreldse bouregulasies nie.



Die proses van eiendomsregistrasie is ook heeltemal te duur

en omslagtig. 'n Mens kan 'n Porsche teen R1 miljoen

invoer, self al die papierwerk met jou hande gaan doen en

daarna die voertuig self by die munisipaliteit op jou naam

gaan registreer, maar as jy 'n erfie in Loxton koop, moet

jy dit deur 'n prokureur laat registreer wat jou meer kos

as wat die erfie werd is. [Tussenwerpsels.] Al hierdie

dinge polariseer grondbesit.



Ons behoort te kyk of ons nie die termyn van 30 jaar in ons

verjaringswetgewing kan verkort na 20 jaar nie. As mense 30

jaar lank nie grond gebruik nie, verdien hulle nie om dit
28 September 2000                              Page 68 of 177


te besit nie. Swartmense is onvertroud met die proses van

eiendomsaankope. Ons behoort die proses meer

verbruikersvriendelik te maak. Ons moet ons

insolvensiewetgewing verander sodat mense se huise nie

onder hulle opgeveil kan word om skuld te delg nie. Dit is

in baie ander lande die geval. Banke sal vir 'n mens binne

vyf minute R50 000 vir 'n voertuig leen, maar sal baie

teëstribbel as jy hulle vra om vir jou R5 000 vir 'n erfie

te leen. Oorsese grondkopers behoort verplig te word om

hulle eiendom hier te verbeter of ten minste net in stand

en produktief te hou.



Al hierdie faktore belemmer grondhervorming en is 'n luukse

wat ons nie kan bekostig nie. Daar is vreeslik baie

deskundiges in hierdie eiendomswêreld sonder grond op hulle

naam, net soos daar landbou-adviseurs is wat op die sewende

verdieping in 'n vuil woonstel met twee potplante boer. So

is daar duisende finansiële adviseurs wat nie een 'n

miljoenêr is nie. Ons moet pasop vir hulle.



Ek wil afsluit. Ons as Afrikaners behoort 'n leidende rol

te speel in grondhervorming in Suid-Afrika, want ons het al

twee voete stewig in Afrika. Ons het nie 'n tannie in

Engeland of 'n oom in Australië nie. Net soos Suid-
28 September 2000                                Page 69 of 177


Afrikaners ``South Africans'' is, is Afrikaners

``Africans''. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs

follows.)



[I would like to quote the reply by President Mbeki to a

question put to him in this House last week:



 I think if one looked at the evolution of our history,

 then one would analyse the matter differently. To say,

 ``You are an Afrikaner, and therefore you are responsible

 for apartheid, so damn you'', would be incorrect.



If one looks at the Women's Monument Museum in

Bloemfontein, one will see that there are photographs of

black people who were trucked to black concentration camps

in open train carriages during the Anglo Boer War. Next to

these, there are photographs of white women and children

who were trucked to white concentration camps in closed

train carriages. There are many other examples in our

country. So let us be blatantly honest for a change and

admit that racism in South Africa did not begin in 1948

with the previous NP government. Afrikaners are familiar

with racism and were also victims of white-on-white racism

for decades. We are still familiar with it now.
28 September 2000                             Page 70 of 177


I would like to come to the South African Millennium

Statement on Racism, and specifically to item 17 of the

programme of action regarding land reform, which is being

proposed. However, there are a few misconceptions with

regard to land which are unfortunately being kept alive by

people with hidden agendas. The perception that 87% of all

land in South Africa is in white hands and 13% in black

hands, for example, was antiquated years ago already. The

suggestion that there is too little land in South Africa is

also incorrect.



The perception that landowners, and farmers in particular,

are unwilling to participate in land reform initiatives, is

a dangerous generalisation. It seems to me that there are

some people in South Africa who cannot breathe unless they

are standing on a podium somewhere in the country and

slandering farmers. Of course there are certain farmers who

are guilty of certain illegal labour practices, just as

there are fish-and-chips-café owners who allow their

workers to suffer, or restaurants in Sea Point which send

their workers home at four o'clock in the morning, but when

it is a farmer, there is hell to pay. This behaviour

incites racism. We must not criticise farmers with a mouth

full of food.
28 September 2000                             Page 71 of 177


The Extension of Security of Tenure Act has been essential

in South Africa for a long time. Afrikaners respect tenure,

because we have been evicted many times, but these days I

am seeing an unhealthy situation with regard to

farmworkers' homes. Some farmers demolish labourers' houses

as soon as they are empty, and some farmers do not want to

improve labourers' houses, because if they do so, they must

supply similar facilities to the dismissed workers.



My problem is, if an Act motivates someone to demolish

houses on his own land, I think there could perhaps be

unintentional consequences associated with that Act. If

that is the case, we should look at it, just as President

Mbeki said earlier this year that there were certain

unintentional consequences with regard to certain labour

legislation and that it was to be changed. In the same way

there could perhaps also be certain aspects with regard to

this Act. I do not know, but it is sad to see people

demolishing houses in a country where millions of people

still live in tin shacks. The mutually incorrect

interpretation of this Act is a big cause of racism.



One of the biggest apartheid instruments which results in

thousands of people still being share-croppers, is the
28 September 2000                             Page 72 of 177


system of an availability fee, for example for water,

power, sewerage, garbage removal, etc. Were Coca-Cola to

send one an account of R10 a month from tomorrow onwards

because there are tins of Coca-Cola available on the

shelves, one would think it was a joke. However, this is

the same principle on which an availability fee is based.



Many of the thousands of poor people cannot afford the

monthly availability fee. Many empty plots in the rural

areas are ridiculously cheap, but the community cannot

afford the availability fee. Recently a councillor told me

that there were many plots for sale for R500 in his town,

because they regularly repossess plots from people who

cannot pay the availability fee of R100 per month. Twenty-

five per cent of the people in this country live on less

than R7 a day; how are they still going to pay an

availability fee of R100 per month?



This system subtly dispossessed black people and forced

them to informal areas. We have hopelessly too much red

tape when it comes to landownership in this country. We

must urgently liberalise landownership in South Africa, and

it should be a multiple process. One process should be

driven by the state, and the other process spontaneously by
28 September 2000                             Page 73 of 177


the public and landowners. Spontaneous mechanisms must be

created, and I want to mention a few possible examples to

hon members.



The subdivision of land should be made far easier.

Surveying costs can also be drastically reduced if the

discrimination between land surveyors and surveyors is

reduced. We find the same situation with regard to town and

regional planners professions. Many municipalities will

give one the land for free, but the surveying costs make

the land too expensive. Then I am not even talking about

the First World building regulations.



The process of property registration is also far too

expensive and cumbersome. One can import a Porsche for R1

million, do all the paperwork oneself by hand and then go

and register the vehicle in one's name with the

municipality, but if one buys a small plot in Loxton, one

has to have it registered by an attorney, which costs you

more than the plot is worth. [Interjections.] All these

things polarise landownership.



We should look at whether we cannot decrease the term of 30

years in our statute of limitations to 20 years. If people
28 September 2000                             Page 74 of 177


do not use land for 30 years, they do not deserve to own

it. Black people are unfamiliar with the process of

property purchasing. We should make the process more

consumer-friendly. We must change our insolvency

legislation so that people's houses cannot be auctioned

from under them to recover debt. This is the case in many

other countries. Banks will lend one R50 000 for a vehicle

in five minutes, but will argue a great deal if one asks

them to lend one R5 000 for a small plot of ground. Foreign

buyers should be obliged to improve their property here or

at least to maintain it and keep it productive.



All these factors are hampering land reform and are a

luxury we cannot afford. There are a great many experts in

this property world without any land to their name, just as

there are agricultural advisers who farm with two pot

plants in an untidy flat. In the same way there are

thousands of financial advisers not one of whom on the

seventh floor is a millionaire. We must be aware of of

them.



I want to conclude. We as Afrikaners should play a leading

role in land reform in South Africa, because we have both

feet firmly in Africa. We do not have an aunt in England or
28 September 2000                               Page 75 of 177


an uncle in Australia. Just as ``Suid-Afrikaners'' are

South Africans, ``Afrikaners'' are Africans.]



Enkosi kakhulu. [Thank you very much.]



Ke a leboha. [Mahofi.] [I thank you. [Applause.]]



Dr C P MULDER: Mevrou die Speaker, ek wil met die agb lid

mnr Gerber saamstem dat Afrikaners 'n groot rol moet speel

in grondherverdeling. As ek na die register van ledebelange

kyk, moet ek sê mnr Gerber kan waarskynlik op sy eie 'n

reuseverskil maak daar met sy eie belange as hy dit sou

begin verdeel.



Ek wil ook vir mnr Gerber sê hy moet 'n bietjie in sy

geskiedenis gaan kyk oor die trokke na die

konsentrasiekampe in die Anglo-Boereoorlog. My eie ouma het

saam met vier kleiner broers in 'n oop koletrok gery, en

nie in een van die fênsie Blou Trein-trokke waarvan hy hier

kom vertel het nie. Dit is nonsens en hy behoort dit te

weet. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans

paragraphs follows.)



[Dr C P MULDER: Madam Speaker, I want to agree with the hon
28 September 2000                             Page 76 of 177


member Mr Gerber that Afrikaners should play a significant

role in land redistribution. When I look at the register of

members' interests, I must say that Mr Gerber, all by

himself, could probably make a major difference in that

respect with his own interests if he should start

redistributing it.



I also want to tell Mr Gerber to look into his own history,

regarding the wagons to the concentration camps in the

Anglo Boer War. My own grandmother, along with her four

brothers, rode in an open coal wagon, and not one of those

fancy Blue Train wagons that he spoke about here. That is

nonsense and he should know it. [Interjections.]]



Perceptions, perceptions, perceptions! We have one subject

today for discussion, but completely opposing points of

view. Why? Because reality and history are perceived

completely differently by the people in this room today. At

the end of August again we had a conference on racism.



Weer eens was daar persepsies, persepsies, persepsies. Hoe

die konferensie ook al aangebied is, my persepsie was dat

dit 'n eensydige affêre was, klaar en afgehandel. Dit is

die persepsie wat aan my oorgedra is, en as ek so luister
28 September 2000                             Page 77 of 177


na van die bydraes vandag hier, dan word dit ook so

bevestig. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)



[Once again there were perceptions, perceptions,

perceptions. In whatever way the conference was presented,

my perception was that it was a one-sided affair, and that

was the end of the matter. That is the perception that was

conveyed to me, and when I listen to some of the

contributions here today, then that is confirmed.]



Hon President Mbeki in his speech noted the need to address

white fears and black expectations. During negotiations in

the past we said to Mr Mbeki that he was wrong. We are not

talking about white fears, but about legitimate rights of

different communities in South Africa. As long as he thinks

the problem is that we have to address fears he will never

succeed in getting South Africa away from racism. He has to

address the legitimate rights and aspirations not only of

the Afrikaner community, but of all the communities in

South Africa. As long as he does not do that we will

continue to struggle with things such as racism.



Die agb mev Jana het in haar toespraak gesê rassisme moet

eers uitgeroei word voordat daar sprake kan wees van
28 September 2000                                Page 78 of 177


nasiebou en vooruitgang. Ek wil die stelling maak:

rassisme, nie net in Suid-Afrika nie, maar ook

internasionaal, is nie 'n doel op sigself nie. Wie sal nou

rassisme as 'n doel op sigself nastreef? Dit kan nooit 'n

doel op sigself wees nie.



Dit is veel eerder 'n simptoom van 'n dieper onderliggende

probleem in 'n gemeenskap of in 'n land, en daardie

probleem kom onder meer na vore in die vorm van rassisme.

Die probleem in Suid-Afrika, en dit is my persepsie, is dat

die grondwetlike resep vir Suid-Afrika verkeerd is.

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)



[The hon Mrs Jana said in her speech that racism had to be

eradicated before there could be any suggestion of nation-

building and prosperity. I want to make the statement:

Racism, not only in South Africa, but also internationally,

is not an end in itself. Who would pursue racism as an end

in itself. It can never be an end in itself.



It is much rather a symptom of a deeper underlying problem

in a community or a country, and that problem, inter alia,

crops up in the form of racism. The problem in South

Africa, and this is my perception, is that the
28 September 2000                               Page 79 of 177


constitutional recipe for South Africa is incorrect.]



We are only paying lip service to the recognition of

different communities and their interests and rights. One

cannot build a nation by stumbling from one sporting event

to the next and then expect people to be enthusiastic about

nation-building and to feel accommodated and secure in that

sense.



Daar is nie vandag baie gepraat oor die aanbevelings van

die konferensie nie. Ek wil stilstaan by een of twee van

daardie punte met betrekking tot die program van aksie.

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)



[Not much has been said today about the recommendations of

the conference. I want to concentrate on one or two of

those points relating to the programme of action.]



Item 26 says, and I quote: ``... measures be adopted which

would restore and enhance the usage and recognition of

diverse cultures ...'' It refers to the whole question of

section 185. Obviously that needs to be addressed. We have

been hearing from the Government for the last five years

that that issue will be addressed. Up to this day it is not
28 September 2000                             Page 80 of 177


being addressed. There are many other examples that also

need to be addressed. The fact of the matter is: We will

not get away from racism until we find a constitutional

dispensation that gives recognition to diversity in South

Africa. [Interjections.] That needs to be done. If we do

not do that we will continue to have problems in South

Africa. [Time expired.]



Mr I S MFUNDISI: Madam Speaker and hon members,

deracialising this country should be accepted as a process.

It is not a matter of switching it off or on as if it was a

light switch. People in this country must themselves be

committed to change and this goes for the former liberation

movements as well.



The Government has to take up where former President

Mandela left off. Nation-building was his passion as head

of state, and it is not unreasonable to expect his

successor to strive to bring the cosmopolitan population of

South Africa closer to one another. It is also not

unreasonable to expect the same population to be amenable

to deracialisation. South Africans, particularly the

Government, should refrain from making subtle racial

remarks and, on being called upon, saying that people
28 September 2000                             Page 81 of 177


overreact and are spoilt brats. As a nation we should

refrain from reliving the past. Two wrongs do not make a

right.



It is very unfortunate that racism is still alive and

kicking in this country. Imagine a situation where a man

confined to a wheelchair, begging for alms, accepts money

from whites only, and if a black person makes an offer he

puts his hand over the top of the money box clearly

indicating that he will not accept help from blacks. This

is as unbecoming as it is annoying, because it will

perpetuate polarisation among the people.



Racism is not prevalent between blacks and whites only. It

is equally rife among blacks who have names by which they

call others who are not of their group. Batswana have even

gone to the extreme of having a noun class in their

language study in which they lump all people other than

Sothos. Class 3, the le-/ma- class of their noun classes,

is an example of the first degree of racism. This should

not be allowed to continue. There are derogatory terms used

by other African language speakers when they refer to

others too.
28 September 2000                             Page 82 of 177


It sometimes boggles the mind when hon members in this

House promulgate legislation such as the Promotion of

Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act of

2000, and do very little to conscientise the populace on

its content and significance. Government and Parliament

should not be seen as doing more talking than delivering.



The establishment of the Commission for the Promotion and

Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and

Linguistic Communities is long overdue. It is a body like

this that can help in improving racial understanding and

tolerance and assist in ridding South Africa of xenophobia.



South Africa has to be a place for all people of goodwill

under the sun. May we look forward to the Third United

Nations World Conference Against Racism, Racial

Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance, which

will be hosted by South Africa next year!



Dr M S MOGOBA: Madam Speaker, racism is a cancer which is

not easy to eradicate. Its roots go deep into the mind and

psyche of an individual, community or nation. A person

infected with racism cannot have a clear vision or

judgment. Racism attacks, corrupts and destroys the whole
28 September 2000                             Page 83 of 177


mind.



South Africa became well known worldwide because of

apartheid. South Africa was Balkanised in such a way that

mere legislation cannot be a quick fix to put us together.

It is for this reason that the United Nations declared

apartheid a crime against humanity.



The World Council of Churches launched a programme to

combat racism. Preaching at the World Council of Churches

Conference on racism, I appealed to the World Council of

Churches to adopt a programme to combat violence and crime.

This was adopted, and this year a programme of action will

be tabled before the churches of the world.



Racism, however, should continue to be roundly condemned.

Racists should not be allowed to walk tall in our society.

They should be made to feel guilty and rejected in a

civilised society. Nonracialism should become the norm, and

we should work towards the ideal of one world, one human

race and one destiny.



As racism is a moral, ethical and theological problem,

religious institutions should take up the fight in their
28 September 2000                             Page 84 of 177


teaching, preaching, worshipping and moral life.



The PAC supports the recommendations and the programme of

action of the Conference on Racism. The PAC calls on all

schools to raise consciousness in schools because pupils

are in their formative years, and what they will become in

life is shaped at school. Schools that do not have a vision

of a nonracial society should be closed down. Racism should

be eliminated in places of work.



Racism feeds on greed. The antidote to greed and

selfishness is the ethic of sharing - the sharing of land,

of wealth and of facilities. This should be a national

virtue, and schools should give trophies to pupils who

excel in this virtue. In the community and the nation,

special recognition and awards should be given. The

consciousness of a common fatherland or motherland with a

common fate and future should be raised.



If we spend more money and time on this exercise, racism

can be easily eradicated. We wish the Third United Nations

World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination,

Xenophobia and Related Intolerance to be held next year

every success.
28 September 2000                             Page 85 of 177


Ms G L MAHLANGU: Madam Speaker, hon members, and ladies and

gentlemen, after the comment by Comrade Matthews about

serious thinkers, I am not going to comment about a number

things that I had wanted to mention here.



When Patsy Tlakula from the Human Rights Commission heard

the testimonies given by people on the subject of racism,

she said:



 I have been in this commission for five years. Through

 the media and complaints that reach us, I had a sense

 that the situation on the farms was very bad, but,

 yesterday, it was shocking - people have lost legs, eyes,

 and their ears have been bitten by dogs. It is just an

 awful situation of vicious attacks that are taking place

 on the farms. Besides attacks on the farms, there had

 been incidents of urban terrorism - marauding gangs of

 white people drive around in rural towns, looking for

 unsuspecting black people who are going about their

 business. They stop and attack.



Racism was entrenched as a device to rule over people whose

ethical and moral base was rooted in a trinity and

spirituality and who believed in: ``Umuntu ngumuntu
28 September 2000                                Page 86 of 177


ngabantu'' [A person is a person through other people]. Why

else should we have committed ourselves to a nonracial

society? Why else should we have given birth to a new kind

of culture with a Constitution that outlaws racism? Jailed,

exiled, banned or banished, we smiled, though it was

painful, for sustenance. Widowed or maimed, we persevered

and focused on spiritual inspiration. As hon Mawa Ramgobin

would say: ``I cannot be, if others are not.''



The extent to which the current political dispensation will

be successful will depend on our being able to manage the

expectations of the black population for an improved

quality of life, on the one hand, and the white negative

fears, on the other. The central issue of these two

separate agendas is the distribution of opportunities,

resources and status.



How do we address past imbalances and inequalities? Look at

the attitude of some people towards affirmative action. The

hon Pallo Jordan, at the instance of the racism conference,

said the following:



 It is ridiculous to pretend that white and black South

 Africans are starting from the same starting line. They
28 September 2000                               Page 87 of 177


 are not. The playing fields are far from level. All

 affirmative action is doing is trying to level the

 playing fields. It is not saying that the money in the

 bank which you have as a result of unearned rewards you

 had under apartheid will be taken away from you. It is

 just saying that we are levelling the playing fields, and

 that we are going to give each child running shoes. That

 is all, so that we can compete more or less equally. We

 know that the one kid whose parents have money in the

 bank because of unearned rewards of apartheid had better

 training. We know he has a better diet. He has all those

 things. We are not saying we are going to cancel out his

 training or we are going to give the other kid some

 steroids. We are just saying that everyone is going to

 have running shoes.



Today, in South Africa, nobody wants to own apartheid,

despite the benefits they derived from it. Our society uses

skin colour as a prescriptive basis of distributing status,

privilege, opportunities and resources. Racism is evil and

immoral. This is a reality. Racism goes hand-in-hand with

gender discrimination. The ecumenical women's meeting on

racism took place last year, from 9 December 1999 to 14

December 1999. The resultant declaration was:
28 September 2000                             Page 88 of 177


 We declare that fullness of life in Christ and Christ's

 prayers for unity require the assurance of women's

 participation, the elimination of violence against women,

 and that the image of God in women be valued and

 recognised.



Furthermore, we declare that the fullness of life in Christ

and Christ's prayer for unity require that no race be

valued higher than others.



We declare that racism and ethnocentrism are against the

will of God and have no place in God's household. As women

and mothers, we envisage a world where antiracist work

becomes a priority and is built on a model of shared

leadership. Women are always at the receiving end of all

these evil systems and practices.



Mosadi ke motshwara-thipa ka fa bogaleng. Le fa le ka mo

lebala, la motlodisa matlho, mosadi ke mmelega mafatshe le

dit[s]haba. Kgatelelo ya bomme e tliswa ke kgetelelo ya

merafe le batho gareng ga bona. (Translation of Setswana

paragraph follows.)



[A woman is a pillar of strength. Even if one ignores and
28 September 2000                             Page 89 of 177


embarrasses her in front of others, a woman will carry the

weight of the world on her shoulders. Women are oppressed

by nations and people who rule them.]



There is a need for a common agenda and a collective social

memory of the future. The first step in this direction is

to negotiate a shared common agenda through compromise,

patience and reconciliation. The tragic reality of South

Africa is that we tend not to have a sense of national

identity. We think of ourselves as black or white.



The new South Africa is where the white minority owns the

economy, while the black majority runs the politics and has

a living memory of three centuries of oppression - what a

volatile brew! I will refer hon members to a giant of the

times and well-known reggae singer, Bob Marley, when he

said:



 Who the cap fits, let him wear it.



We have seen them wearing the cap this afternoon! How many

pieces of legislation were voted against when it was clear

that the lives of the ordinary people were going to

improve? Thanks to the majority in the ANC, all those Bills
28 September 2000                             Page 90 of 177


were voted for and we managed to pass them.



That has to change. We should listen to the African drum.

We all cried here. Those hon members who followed Comrade

Thabo Mbeki when he said: ``I am an African'', all said

that they were Africans. One cannot be an African without

ubuntu. [Interjections.] Ubuntu can play a creative role in

rebuilding social relationships that have divided society.

Ubuntu can help us to be reconciled.



Today black people are extending a hand of reconciliation,

and the masters of apartheid and racism behave as if it is

business as usual. They know that they benefited. We never

heard their voice against apartheid and against the

banishment of our comrades. Even in this province, where

more than 3 million Africans were forcibly removed to the

Eastern Cape, I never heard the hon Marthinus van Schalkwyk

or the hon Tony Leon shouting. [Interjections.] We do

expect them to be ashamed, but not to defend an evil system

like apartheid and racism. [Interjections.] They should

deal with their guilt, accept their wrongs, own up and make

up. No amount of denial will heal them.



For racism to be eliminated, we have to start somewhere. We
28 September 2000                               Page 91 of 177


have a powerful Constitution. Should we not start at the

genesis of the current problem? Should the white land-

owning South Africans not address the issue of land

dispossession? Do they not feel the moral need to share?

Should they not share their scientific knowledge to conduct

good farming with their fellow African compatriots? What

voluntary efforts are being made by the current white

holders of 87% of the land? Hardly any. [Interjections.]



What are their expectations to the landless people? Should

not more than normal efforts be made by the beneficiaries

of apartheid to help educate and train people who were

victims of apartheid and the notorious Bantu education?

Should they not be seen to be engaged - with the power of

Government on their side - actively on the ground, fighting

crime and violence in the townships and everywhere else? I

said that whoever the cap fits, should wear it, and they

are doing exactly that. Thanks to Bob Marley.

[Interjections.] As South Africans, we need to transform

our country together. We can and we must become a united

and great nation. Yes, we are diverse in our cultures, but

we can and must build our unity in the fullness of our

diversity. This is a richness that we have.
28 September 2000                               Page 92 of 177


With regard to our efforts at reconciliation, we are the

envy of the world. Those hon members should not tarnish

this, and they should not harp on racial minority

interests. They should join the majority of South Africans

who are black, deprived and dispossessed. They should fight

their poverty and not their skin colour. They should help

in all and every way possible to create conditions of good

health, both physical and mental. We are not a poor

country. We can afford to live together in harmony. The hon

Wally Serote sums it up correctly when he says:



 I ask for our want to make life magic. Since it is so

 brief, since it is so loved, since it is so

 unquestionably rare,

 can't it be shared.



When the HRC consulted ordinary people on the ground in

preparation for the Conference on Racism, they did so

because they needed to break the conspiracy of silence that

is prevalent in all discussions about racism.



At one level, silence is caused by fear of victimisation

and intimidation. Silence is also evasive in denial in the

case of those who do not wish to be challenged about racist
28 September 2000                              Page 93 of 177


practices. They pretend they do not understand what we are

talking about. They make the kind of noises that are being

made. They demand definitions and make countercharges.

There is generally a paradigm of denial by those who have

power and who are not prepared to allow themselves to be

confronted with the reality and effects of racist action.



``What we received as a result went well beyond our

expectations.'' This was said by Barney Pityana, when his

colleague Patsy Tlakula found testimonies given by people

most traumatic.



If one scratches below the surface, many white South

Africans function with suspicion, and I think that should

end. We are faced with a huge problem which can and will

only be addressed through honesty and commitment to

eradicating all forms of racism. We owe it to ourselves,

our children and generations to come. [Applause.]



Ms M SMUTS: Madam Speaker, I will get to the issues raised

by the hon Gwen Mahlangu later in my speech.

[Interjections.] We are supposed to be debating this grand-

sounding document today, the South African Millennium

Statement on Racism and Programme of Action. There is not
28 September 2000                             Page 94 of 177


very much in it. There is nothing in it which demonstrates

the monstrous racism which the President considered so

compelling a national problem that he called a multimillion

rand conference at the opening of Parliament on 4 February

here.



The document fails to demonstrate that racism, rather than

poverty or poor administration, is the real problem six

years into our transition. It is one of our problems,

certainly, but it cannot be used to explain away the other

problems. Only three of the 15 points under the programme

of action really address race. Four of the 15 call for the

declaration of days, decades, dialogue and a movement

against racism, rather than a movement against Government

or a movement against Gear, of course, or globalisation.

Two points deal with reparation, one international and the

other local.



The Government is urged to address reparations for victims

of racism, as recommended by the TRC report of 1998. But

TRC reparations are not, of course, for victims of racism.

They are the legal quid pro quo for the amnesties granted

to perpetrators from all sides of the conflicts of the

past, as a result of which victims cannot claim damages.
28 September 2000                              Page 95 of 177


Let me remind members, if I may, that the origins of the

TRC itself lie, in fact, in the heartbreaking stories of

abuse by the ANC as told to its own commission, the

Skweyiya commission. The commission ordered compensation.

The ANC decided instead that there should be a ``commission

of truth'' for national disclosure of violations, which

would use state funds to compensate victims across the

board. Seven years and one month later the ANC is still

avoiding the issue.



Point 25 wants us to ratify a few more international

instruments, none of which deals with race. There are two

points which deal admirably with xenophobia and cultural

diversity, two of the so-called related forms of

intolerance.



Finally, before I get to race, there is one other related

point which is close to my heart and on which I petitioned

Dr Pityana.



An HON MEMBER: It is about time you got to the point.



Ms M SMUTS: Well, it is about time the document got to the

subject. That is the point. [Interjections.]
28 September 2000                             Page 96 of 177


Here I can see that the Human Rights Commission tried but

failed to get this point past the Government. This is what

I petitioned Dr Pityana on. I argued that the Government's

effective abandonment of women on the Aids issue

constitutes discrimination as defined in both the

convention on race, the ICEAD, and the one on women, Cedaw.



We know that research project after research project shows

that South African women suffer sexual coercion on an

enormous scale, with violence impossibly high by

international, including African, comparisons. Women are

nevertheless denied antiretrovirals after rape, or before

birth, despite the fact that the drugs are offered to us

for next to nothing. I know the subject was quietly raised

at the conference. I know it was. But I have to say that if

point 23 is the result, then it falls hopelessly short. I

assume each hon member has the document. Point 23 is the

result.



There was a time when we all spoke the same language here

and in the two constitution-making processes. Racism and

sexism sit side-by-side in our Constitution because the

effects of centuries of prejudice and condescension were

directly comparable for women and for blacks. They boil
28 September 2000                                Page 97 of 177


down to ``distinction, exclusion and restriction'' to use

the definition from the two conventions.



Women and people of colour also know what it is to have

internalised an assigned inferior status, and we know how

to help each other reject that by building confidence.

However, these are the psychological or social aspects. All

of us clearly understood how one should deal with these

matters constitutionally, in the law and in policy.



Firstly, one repeals discriminatory law. Incidentally, the

Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional

Development reported on Tuesday that the Black

Administration Act of 1927, cornerstone of the previous

dispensation, remains unreviewed six years into this

dispensation. The committee has suggested that the Minister

for Justice and Constitutional Development, the Minister of

Home Affairs and the Minister for Agriculture and Land

Affairs should get their act together.



Secondly, one prohibits unfair discrimination, but the

Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair

Discrimination Act is not yet in effect. Thirdly, one

institutes affirmative action or corrective programmes and
28 September 2000                             Page 98 of 177


yes, we support them and we always have. [Interjections.]

It is the ANC's ... [Interjections.] Hon members should

please listen. It is the ANC's africanisation, masquerading

as affirmative action, that we oppose. [Interjections.] Hon

members should go back to their own election manifesto of

1994 if they want to see what affirmative action used to

mean. [Interjections.]



The Constitution and the law still speak that language, and

so does the Constitutional Court. Judge Albie Sachs calls

it a structured focus on nondiscrimination, as the heart of

implementable equality guarantees. I hope that Parliament

still speaks that language and today's largely quiet debate

indicates that it does.



Government, however, does not. The Human Rights Commission

does not. They have slid deep into what the Human Rights

Commission calls ``social analysis rather than mere legal

certainties'' and from there into the realm of ``the deep

recesses of one's consciousness''. That is what the HRC

called it in the media racism report.



Law and policy can deal with conduct, not the content of

people's thoughts, opinions, beliefs and free expression.
28 September 2000                             Page 99 of 177


However, both the HRC and the executive have, over the last

year, dragged debate down to the level of allegations, of

subliminal prejudice and hatred and, yes, it surfaced at

the conference too. [Interjections.] One can only surmise

that there was not enough demonstrable, concrete, conduct-

based proof of the white racism that the ANC apparently

needs to protect a bitterly unpopular new elite and to

survive electorally. [Interjections.]



If anti-racism training in schools and in the public and

private sectors, as proposed here in point 11, means the

kind of treatment the media got from the HRC, we say

``no''. If it means what Prof Jakes Gerwel calls the

``conventions of civility'' and an appreciation of

diversity, then, ``yes''.



It is a tragedy to see the ANC of Mandela and Luthuli turn

into a race-driven nationalist party. [Interjections.] I do

not think that that extends to all the members here.

[Interjections.] Perhaps that is why many of them are not

here. Let us, hon members, get back on track with the

transition. [Interjections.]



In truth, we started exactly when the United Nations'
28 September 2000                            Page 100 of 177


decade on racism commenced in 1993. Instead of declaring a

new decade which starts now and covers the next two general

elections, let us complete the United Nations' decade. We

started in 1993; let us get on with unfinished business.

[Interjections.]



Point 21 asks that the disparities in wealth, land reform,

access to capital and skill, be addressed. Yes, get on with

it. Government does not need a race conference or a

programme to fulfil these obligations. Point 29 asks for

the implementation of the Promotion of Equality and

Prevention of Discrimination Act. Get on with it. Let the

courts adjudicate without special ministerial preparation

and designation.



Reconciliation is not a new process, as Prof Gerwel has

said, as opposed to our President who speaks of the danger

of social instability implicit in our race divisions. There

has been a systematic drive to polarise this country into

black and white. Little wonder that the case against gender

discrimination, which cuts across colour, has become so

muted. Both the President and the ANC have said that whites

think blacks are primitive, pagan, savage and satanic. That

is shocking.
28 September 2000                            Page 101 of 177


The President told South Africa at the conference that one

cannot expect blacks to distinguish between whites who

supported apartheid and the few who did not. By design, or

effectively, he has been driving the concept of collective

guilt which we specifically excluded from the TRC's Act and

in the interim Constitution.



Yes, I know what the President said here last week, but

that has not stopped the hon Gwen Mahlangu from driving the

same line of argument today. I know what he said last week,

but the harm has been done. We need look no further than

the statements of the PAC in its pamphlet - Stanley should

take note - and from the provincial secretary this past

weekend, namely, ``One oppressor, one bullet!'' One needs

look no further than that to see how dangerous this

polarising approach has been.



There is white racism in this country. There is black

racism in this country. [Interjections.] There is

tribalism. The Constitution created by all of us here

together recognises that fact and deals with it. It also

deals with the legacy of apartheid. Why the pretence? Why

pretend? Everybody is in denial? [Interjections.] Why deny

the Constitution? [Interjections.] [Time expired.]
28 September 2000                            Page 102 of 177


Miss S RAJBALLY: Madam Speaker, at last democracy has given

us the freedom to speak. Racism in South Africa did not

cease with the demise of the apartheid regime in 1994.

Redressing the inequalities of the past and redistributing

resources to the historically disadvantaged is still met

with hostility by certain privileged minority groups who

want to retain the economic status quo.



The primary aim of the conference on racism was to address

the truth that racism in South Africa still exists and that

collective efforts must be made to eliminate personal acts

of racism and the apartheid system which internalised

racism in people. The political parties are graced with

power to transform the electorate and promote the principle

of the rainbow nation, instead of politicising every issue

that affects either black or white, thus creating the zebra

nation. Propagandanistic fight-backs belong to the

apartheid regime and not in the current democratic era.



What are we fighting? Six years of democracy is fighting

back against approximately 350 years of oppression by the

colonial government. Constructive opposition is the key to

progress. In the 1999 national election the DP and the New

NNP trampled each other for the Indian vote. Yet, when the
28 September 2000                             Page 103 of 177


DP won seven seats in the provincial legislature in

KwaZulu-Natal, it gave six to the whites and one to the

blacks. The MF nagged the DP for cheating the Indian voters

in the 1999 national election. Finally in July, when a

white MPP, Mr Wessel Nel, resigned, the DP appointed an

Indian MPP, Mr Gobodi from Estcourt.



This is another political stunt executed by the DP just

before the local elections to manipulate the Indian vote.

The MF predominantly represents Indian communities with the

objective of uniting them with the majority. Unlike other

parties we do not use other race groups as scapegoats to

protect our interest.   The MF will not apologise for our

blatant honesty.



Mahatma Ghandi was the first political leader to bridge the

Indo-African relationship. Likewise, the MF is following in

his footsteps by forming an alliance with the majority

party. Although the apartheid government desperately tried

to sever the relationship between the majority and the

Indians, something which was evidently contrived in the

1949 riots, the Inanda riot of 1985 in KwaZulu-Natal and

the Group Areas Act, Indians stubbornly chose to be at the

forefront of the freedom struggle.
28 September 2000                            Page 104 of 177


The MF will not allow former white political parties to

indoctrinate black fear into the Indians. The MF is the

only political party which has the guts to openly admit

that we want to reconcile the Indians with the majority.

The answer to economic, social and political development is

to co-operate and maintain a close working relationship

with the ruling party. [Time expired.] [Applause.]



Mnr C AUCAMP: Mevrou die Speaker, as ek na die Ordelys kyk,

sien ek die onderwerp van bespreking is ``Recommendations

of Conference on Racism''. Met die uitsondering van my

kleinniggie Dene Smuts het nie een van die sprekers hulle

daarby gehou nie. Dit lyk of ons ons eie konferensie wil

oorhou asof daar nie reeds een gehou is nie. Ek dink nie

een van die sprekers het eens die verslag gelees voor hulle

hul toesprake geskryf het nie, soos die dominee wat sy

preek opstel en agterna die gespaste teks soek. Ek wil my

probeer bepaal by die verslag self. (Translation of

Afrikaans paragraph follows.)



[Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, when I look at the Order Paper

I see that the subject under discussion is

``Recommendations of Conference on Rascism''. With the

exception of my grandniece Dene Smuts, not one of the
28 September 2000                            Page 105 of 177


speakers confined themselves to the topic. It would seem as

if we want to hold our own conference as if one had not

already been held. I doubt whether any of the speakers even

read the report before they wrote their speeches, like the

clergyman who prepares his sermon and only then looks for

the appropriate text. I want to try to confine myself to

the report itself.]



I can call it a mild report of a vicious conference. In his

opening speech at the conference, President Mbeki expressed

confidence that South Africans have wisdom, ingenuity and

sensitivity to the human condition to overcome racism.

Although the conference was more often than not not marked

by this sensitivity, the report itself fares a little

better in this respect.



There are still some concerns that I would like to deal

with. The report explains its solidarity with the refugees

who are flocking to South Africa without warning against

the danger of the indiscriminate influx of foreigners. This

very tendency will further destroy our country, and the

fact that these foreigners are taking up the limited work

and jobs available in South Africa will definitely

contribute to more racism and, perhaps, justified
28 September 2000                            Page 106 of 177


xenophobia.



The report has the tendency to credit apartheid with all

the evils that are present in South Africa without

explaining why the same inequalities exist in countries of

the same nature as South Africa, which did not have a

policy like that.



The report asks that the criminal justice system be

equipped to apply the provisions of the Promotion of

Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act.

Somewhere, there is a bit of a slip-up. The Promotion of

Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act does

not operate in the sphere of criminal law, but that of

civil law.



In line with the President's plea for sensitivity, the AEB

makes a plea for sensitivity for the fact that 16 December

is, for a large part of the Afrikaner community, a day with

specific religious content and will, in our hearts, always

be the Day of the Covenant. We appeal for some sensitivity

towards that.



Die AEB verwelkom punt 26 van die verslag, wat aanbeveel
28 September 2000                            Page 107 of 177


dat maatreëls getref word om die erkenning van die

verskeidenheid taal-, kultuur- en godsdiensgemeenskappe aan

te moedig en te bevorder, en deel ook die verslag se kommer

dat daardie kommissie nog nie ingestel is nie. Ek dink die

konferensie het lippediens hieraan bewys, en die illusie

van 'n allesomvattende eenkleurnasie is die oorheersende

indruk van die konferensie.



Dit is ironies dat die konferensie oor die regte van taal-,

kultuur- en godsdiensgemeenskappe hierdie jaar

onverklaarbaar genoeg nie eens plaasgevind het nie. Die AEB

deel die kommer van die Mynwerkersunie dat die trant van

die konferensie eerder tot rassespanning en polarisering

aanleiding gegee het. Die ontkenning dat daar ook neigings

tot rassisme by ander gemeenskappe is, het die konferensie

in 'n eensydige inkwisisie laat ontaard. Ek sluit af.

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)



[The AEB welcomes point 26 of the report, which recommends

that measures be taken to encourage and to promote the

recognition of the diversity of linguistic, cultural and

religious communities, and also shares the concern

expressed in the report that that commission has not yet

been established. I think the conference paid lip service
28 September 2000                            Page 108 of 177


to this, and the illusion of a comprehensive one-colour-

nation is the overriding impression of the conference.



It is ironic that the conference on the rights of

linguistic, cultural and religious communities did not even

take place this year for some inexplicable reason. The AEB

shares the concern of the Mineworkers' Union that the

manner in which the conference was conducted actually gave

rise to racial tension and polarisation. The denial of the

fact that there is also a tendency to racism in other

communities caused the conference to degenerate into a one-

sided inquisition. I wish to conclude.]



I hope that the milder touch reflected in the report,

despite its flaws, is an indication that a more positive

and inclusive approach will be taken than that taken at the

conference. [Time expired.]



Mr M A MANGENA: Chairperson, there is no doubt that the

national conference on racism, held in Sandton recently,

was a historic and important event in our country. The

conference focused national attention on the scourge of

racism that affects millions of our people every day on

farms, in private homes, banks, insurance companies,
28 September 2000                            Page 109 of 177


supermarkets, the army, the Police Service and everywhere.

Occasionally, it erupts into something that hits the

headlines like when a man is painted silver or another one

is tied behind a bakkie and dragged for several kilometres

until he is dead and pieces of his flesh are collected like

samples of mud on the tar road.



Racism is an irrational disease that destroys human

relations and is capable of shaking the very foundations of

a society or a country. We have experience in this country

of the consequences of racial discrimination and racist

practices. The programme of action adopted by the

conference, which includes the declaration of a decade of

national mobilisation against racism, is most welcome.

Racism will not just go away of its own accord. It needs to

be confronted and rooted out of the fabric of our society.



The incessant complaints of racism emanating from blacks,

and the fact that they are at the receiving end of racist

practices everywhere, is a measure of the weakness of the

blacks. Only the weak can complain of being discriminated

against or being oppressed. Women complain of being

oppressed socially and economically, because they are in a

weak position at this point in time. Blacks do not complain
28 September 2000                             Page 110 of 177


of discrimination in soccer or politics because they are on

an equal footing with everybody.



We are ill-treated, beaten up and evicted from farms

because we own very little land. We complain of racist

discrimination in banking, insurance, commerce and industry

because our ownership stake in these sectors is almost

zero. We complain about being discriminated against in

rugby, cricket and other such sporting codes because other

people are in a more powerful position in these areas.



An HON MEMBER: Bua ntate! [Tell them, sir!]



Mr M A MANGENA: We are put in this position of weakness by

a history of colonisation, discrimination and oppression,

spanning several centuries. Be that as it may, blacks must

guard against being a nation of moaners. We should guard

against entrenching a victim mentality in our general

psyche.



Yes, we should complain against and talk about racism when

and wherever we encounter it, but, above all, instances of

racist discrimination against us should galvanise us into

action. That action must be geared at raising our economic
28 September 2000                            Page 111 of 177


and social status.



Journalist Mathatha Tsedu ... [Time expired.] [Applause.]



Mr M S MANIE: Chairperson, when I came up here, I came as a

sweeper. I am supposed to sweep and pick up on some of the

points that people have raised here.



I must say that I would be spoiling the little bit of

dignity that we have been able to give this debate, if I

were to respond. So I apologise to my comrades here and say

that I am not even going to waste my time responding to

some of the points, because I think that would not do

justice to the issue.



However, let me say that the ugly face of racism was not

about which bus one could travel on or which toilet one

could use, in the past. It was about the horrible

consequences that this had on the lives of people, which

led to the poverty, the shacks and the high unemployment in

the black communities. That is what racism was about.

Although the legal basis is now removed, the effects of

that system, prior to 1994, are still deeply entrenched in

many areas in South African society.
28 September 2000                            Page 112 of 177


In my view, our single biggest challenge is to build a new

South African nation - a South African nation that can pool

all its skills, its talents and its resources to overcome

crime and unemployment and to make our economy grow, a

rainbow nation that can accommodate the very diverse

religious, cultural and language differences in our

country. However, the reality is that we do have very

distinct groups. Whether we call these groups nations or

communities, we have two very distinct groups in our

country. We have what is referred to as broadly black

aspirations and expectations on the one side, and white

fears on the other side. We might define this differently,

but we all have to agree that that is one of the

characteristics of South African society currently.



My problem, however, is that we have, for too long, tried

to convince one another of the views of either the one

group or the other, and that we have not made a lot of

progress with respect to the solutions to the problems. If

we are unable to see things through the eyes of the other

group, we will be coming up with the wrong solutions. We

have to ask ourselves: What is it that the other group sees

as the major problems to them, and what do they see as

possible solutions? We are all convinced that we are right
28 September 2000                               Page 113 of 177


in our approach, but are we? That is the question that we

should be asking.



I would like to share a small experience that I have had

with hon members. My daughter was cutting my hair in the

bathroom. [Interjections.] Yes, I have a daughter old

enough to cut my hair. For those hon members who think I am

a youngster, I am 51 years old. My wife came in while my

daughter was cutting my hair and said to me that I must

please make sure that I vacuum up all the hair after my

daughter had finished. [Interjections.]



So I agreed, and after my daughter had cut my hair I took

the vacuum cleaner and cleaned up as best as I could. I

looked around, and it looked clean to me. My wife popped

into the bathroom and she said: ``I asked you so nicely to

vacuum up all the hair, and look what the place looks like!

``I looked around and I could not see what she was talking

about. [Laughter.] I really could not. So for the hell of

it I put on my spectacles, and I was shocked. I saw how

much hair was still on the floor. [Laughter.]



The point that I am trying to demonstrate here is that I

was convinced that I was right, that I had cleaned the
28 September 2000                            Page 114 of 177


floor completely. In fact, I made sure because I did not

want my wife to tell me that I had not done a proper job.

However, the reality is that even though I was convinced I

was right, I was wrong, because I did not put on my

spectacles.



I have used a very ordinary example, because sometimes

these examples are easier to understand. However, the point

that I am trying to get across here is that we need to

start looking through the spectacles or the eyes of other

people, and not just look at things from where we come from

and from what we see. It is something that we should learn,

not just from me, but in general from other people when we

are confronted with issues like that. [Interjections.]

[Applause.]



Now I have got my spectacles on, you see, so I can see

things from both sides, hopefully. [Laughter.] However, let

me use another example. When we talk about the

inequalities, many people are saying that apartheid was

wrong. We have heard that nobody voted for apartheid,

because of their reply whenever you ask them: ``Was

apartheid wrong? Did you support it?'' [Interjections.] So

it is a very strange phenomenon that nobody voted for it,
28 September 2000                            Page 115 of 177


but that it was around for so long. [Laughter.]



However, people say that one should not speak about

apartheid, because that was in the past. However, we are

talking about the consequences of apartheid. I want to

demonstrate that with another example. A person is sitting

in his home and somebody comes in. They chat, and the one

whose house it is, is cleaning his gun.



Mr K M ANDREW: Is it a licensed gun?



Mr M S MANIE: Madam Speaker, it might be licensed if it is

that hon member's. If it is mine, it is not. [Laughter.] So

he is cleaning the gun, and it goes off accidentally. The

visitor is fatally wounded. While the person is bleeding it

is not good enough for the owner of the house to say:``I am

sorry that I accidentally shot you'', and want to walk

away. What we need to do is to deal with the effects of the

system. If we had knowledge that apartheid was wrong, we

have to see what we can do to stop the bleeding. That is

the responsibility of us all. [Interjections.] [Applause.]



Let me also say that if we are all saying that, then that

is exactly the problem. We should not all be saying that;
28 September 2000                            Page 116 of 177


we should all be doing it. There is a big difference

between saying that apartheid is wrong and doing something

about it. We have all been saying that and we do nothing.

We must get into the mode of doing and not talking. I think

that is what we need in our country, and it is not because

one is white or black. All of us should see it as our

collective responsibility.



I want to say that there are many white people who have the

desire to be part of the new South Africa. We met with the

SA Agricultural Union not so long ago, and I must say that

I was very impressed by the honest desire that they showed

to find out what they should be doing and how we should be

starting consultations and discussions so that we could

start working together to deal with problems, not only with

regard to farmers, but also about farmworkers.



When we talk about the bosses, we also need to talk about

the problems of the workers. If we talk about things from

one perspective only, we are not going to find solutions.

We need, in fact, as a nation, to start dealing with things

in a more balanced way. Then we will start finding

solutions quicker.
28 September 2000                            Page 117 of 177


I also want to say that if we are saying that there are

many white people who have the desire to be part of the new

South Africa, one must then understand, at the same time,

that black people are not angry and bitter. All they desire

in the new South Africa is to be part of the new South

Africa and benefit from it by having a better quality of

life, and that means that everybody must assist them to get

there.



I can talk about these things forever, but this little

thing is telling me that my time is almost up. But before I

am told that my time is up, I just want to conclude on a

lighter note by saying that now that Abe Williams is no

longer a member of the House, I am now transferring the

responsibility of getting my father's pension to the DP.

[Laughter.] I hope that Douglas Gibson will be given that

message. [Applause.]



The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Mr

Chairman, I am happy that we are having this discussion,

and I am also happy that we are so passionate about the

subject, though, of course, we are passionate from diverse

angles.
28 September 2000                            Page 118 of 177


Maybe I should start with my old friend, Rev Meshoe. Rev

Meshoe knows the story of Nicodemus better than I do. He

asked, according to the Bible, what he should do to enter

the Kingdom of Heaven. Of course, Rev Meshoe knows the

answer. He never said that the answer was Miracle 2000.

[Laughter.] [Applause.]



But, seriously though, my mother, who was a charwoman,

``unomakhishini'' - I come from the womb of such a level of

cheap labour - used to say to me as a small boy: ``It is

only women who know and who have experienced the labour

pains and the pangs of childbirth.'' If one has never been

a victim of the 1913 and 1936 Land Acts; if one has never

had one's freedom of movement restricted in any way

whatsoever; if one has never in one's life experienced

being a kaffir, a coolie, ``ikula''; if one has never

experienced being a ``hotnot'' in one's life, the most one

can do is to sympathise with those who have and show

solidarity with them. [Applause.] But one should never come

to this House to denounce them when they say: ``But, for

God's sake, there is a problem in this country.''



When one goes out to a place called Vryburg now and asks

them in the middle of the street, ``Is there racism?'' the
28 September 2000                            Page 119 of 177


masses are going to say, ``Yes, there is racism.'' When one

goes to other parts of the country, even in Bryanston in

Johannesburg, and sees the little boy who was attacked by

white thugs and nearly lost an eye, and asks him,'' Why did

this happen to you?'' he will say, ``It is because of my

race.''



For God's sake! My daughter, an 11-year-old, who was born

in exile, says to me: ``Daddy, we live in a place where

there is a preponderance of whites, but when we go out to

Soweto, where you claim to have grown up, we do not see

whites. Why is that the case?'' Again one cannot lie to

this child and say that this is a God-given order.

[Laughter.] Those ghettos were created by fellow human

beings, and deliberately so.



It is a shame that some people are mourning the so-called

demise of the ANC of Luthuli, Mandela, etc because those

selfsame people were responsible for the banning order that

was slapped on that ANC, and at that moment they never

mourned their own action against the ANC. [Applause.] But

more than that, is it not time for us to step back and say

that, whatever we may think of Helen Suzman, she was

totally different from this motley collection of people who
28 September 2000                            Page 120 of 177


claim that they are her followers. [Interjections.] She is

completely different from them.



As a black South African with my experience of white

racism, I have no apology for being passionate about racism

in this country. Racism is an international problem, and

that is why the world is gathering in this country next

year to discuss it. In the meantime, people pretend that

six years down the line since the demise of apartheid,

racism has disappeared in the country. It has not, for

God's sake. It is a daily experience of ordinary people.

When one sees, for instance, in the whites-only streets of

some of the suburbs, a black in the back of a white man's

bakkie and a dog sitting next to the white man in the cab

on a rainy day, what does one make of that? Is it not

racism to prefer to sit with a dog to sitting with a human

being? It still happens, and it is the experience of our

own people.



By the way, 55 years after the end of the Second World War

we still acknowledge that there was indeed a holocaust; we

do not deny this. Yet when we say that the consequences of

apartheid are there and are staring us in the face, people

say, ``No, you are dividing this nation.'' This surprises
28 September 2000                            Page 121 of 177


us. After all, we have never been united, we still have to

build one nation in this country, and we will not build it

by magic or by pretending that the past never happened. We

will have to build it consciously and go all out to build

it.



The question is: What are the leaders of the opposition

offering to unravel our past which stares us in the face?

That is a critical question. [Applause.] One cannot run

away from that one. The answer, for God's sake, is not as

simple as saying, ``You are in government, so do it.'' It

is as though they are saying, ``You took over from us, and

therefore you are to blame for the consequences of a past

that you never created.'' That is a wrong attitude. It is

the moment now for all of us as serious and honest leaders

to say: What is it that we can do to create this society

that we have committed ourselves to in the Constitution? We

all profess to be nonracial and nonsexist in our

orientation.



We all profess to be committed to the emergence of a

democratic society based on the basic values that we all

incorporated in our Constitution. But what do we do beyond

that point? Again, as the old English adage goes, actions
28 September 2000                             Page 122 of 177


speak louder than words. They speak louder. What is it that

we are all doing? Is it really preferable for some of them

to say, ``No, let this Government do it.'' Then they put up

all sorts of sickening posters in whites-only areas, or

predominantly white areas, with slogans, such as ``Resist

high rates!'' But why do they not put them up in Soweto?

They do not exist there. I know they do not. They do not

have those posters there.



The reason they are not doing it is simple.

[Interjections.] Please listen. The reason they are not

doing it ... [Interjections.] Hon members should please

listen; they have got ears, unless of course their ears are

not connected to whatever savvy they are supposed to have.

[Laughter.] They should listen. The reason they will not do

this is because they are preoccupied with protecting the

rich. They are the ones who must not be taxed in order that

we may use whatever we rake in by way of taxes to resolve

those problems.



How else can we do it if we do not take certain measures to

transfer resources from where they currently reside in

racial terms? [Interjections.] This is it. This House was

actually told an untruth this afternoon, namely that we tax
28 September 2000                               Page 123 of 177


on a racial basis. We do not. Cyril Ramaphosa, who is as

black as I am, pays as high taxation as he does because he

belongs to those people who do have. He has achieved

something and there are many like that. But those hon

members say that people should not pay these high rates;

because - and this is what they ought to be saying to

complete the statement which reflects their state of mind -

if they do, this Government will take their money and use

it where it was never used before. [Interjections.]



I have said the ghettos never created themselves.

[Interjections.] No, for God's sake, Dene should listen.

The ghettos never created themselves. There never was a

Soweto until some white people sitting in this institution

created it. That is it. Yes! [Interjections.] Now what are

they offering as a solution? [Interjections.]



The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order!



The MINISTER: Look they are in denial mode. That is the

problem. They should be saying ``The past was awful, this

is what we will do, together with the Government.'' We do

not even want their phony apology. [Interjections.] What we

want is their honest action to deal with the past.
28 September 2000                             Page 124 of 177


[Applause.] They are not as yet grappling with that past.

Instead they are seeking a reassurance that indeed things

that have to be done are not going to be done. They are

even afraid of affirmative action. [Interjections.] They

are afraid of it. Does the hon member practise it? Does the

hon member practise it? [Interjections.] Where? For God's

sake, they had centuries to do it. They had 46 years of

apartheid to do it. They sat here to our exclusion. They

never did it. They cannot do it now. [Time expired.]

[Applause.]



 CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE

   AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT ON LIMITATION OF LEGAL

     PROCEEDINGS AGAINST GOVERNMENT INSTITUTIONS BILL



Order disposed of without debate.



Report adopted.



 INSTITUTION OF LEGAL PROCEEDINGS AGAINST ORGANS OF STATE

                             BILL



                    (Second Reading debate)
28 September 2000                            Page 125 of 177


The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Mr

Chairman, the Bill that lies before the House has a long

history. On 3 October 1985 the SA Law Commission reported

to the then Minister of Justice on its investigation into

time limits for the institution of actions against the

state. That was, Project 42. The SA Law Commission

recommended, among other things: the repeal or amendment of

several provisions which limited the institution of actions

against Government institutions or persons for whose

actions Government institutions were liable in law; uniform

provisions for such actions in terms whereof the defendant,

that is the Government or a Government institution, had to

be notified in writing of intended proceedings within six

months after the debt became due; and that the usual

requirements for prescription should apply to the debts of

Government institutions.



The recommendations of the SA Law Commission were

encompassed in a draft Bill, but, presumably because of

objections by certain Government institutions, that Bill

was never introduced into Parliament. However, in the light

of legislative changes that have taken place since 1985,

and the reasoning in the case of Mohlomi v Minister of

Defence, where the Constitutional Court held that section
28 September 2000                            Page 126 of 177


113(1) of the Defence Act of 1957, which provided for

limitations of actions against the Defence Force, was

constitutionally invalid, the SA Law Commission submitted a

Supplementary Report on the Investigation into Time Limits

for the Institution of Actions against the State to the

previous Minister of Justice on 30 September 1998.



The Limitation of Legal Proceedings against Government

Institutions Bill of 2000, which emanated from that report,

was eventually introduced into Parliament on 25 November

1999. The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional

Development, having considered the Bill and the submissions

received in respect thereof, presented the Bill which is

before the House today, namely the Institution of Legal

Proceedings against Organs of State Bill of 2000.



Because the objects of the respective clauses of the Bill

are dealt with comprehensively in the memorandum on the

objects of the Bill, I do not find it necessary to discuss

or to give a detailed explanation of these clauses. I will

rather use this opportunity to briefly highlight the

necessity and desirability of statutory provisions of the

kind contained in the Bill.
28 September 2000                            Page 127 of 177


There are at present several statutory provisions which

regulate the right of a person to institute legal

proceedings against certain organs of state, for example,

the SA Police Service and the Public Service, for the

recovery of certain debts. The majority of these provisions

provide that the creditor or plaintiff must give the organ

of state concerned notice of his or her intention to

institute legal proceedings against that organ of state,

and that a certain period of time must elapse from the date

of the notice before such legal proceedings may be

instituted.



Provision is further made for the lapse of the right to

institute such legal proceedings after the expiry of

certain fixed periods, calculated from the date when the

cause of action arose. The periods allowed for the issuing

of a notice, and the expiry periods differ from one statute

to another, and this creates uncertainty that is aggravated

by the uncertainty about the constitutionality of each

different provision. In the light of the above, the

principal object of the Bill is to harmonise and create

uniformity in respect of the existing laws pertaining to

notice periods for the institution of legal proceedings

against organs of state.
28 September 2000                            Page 128 of 177


Regarding the origin of such, let us call them restrictive,

provisions, it was pointed out in the SA Law Commission's

1985 report that the position regarding state liability was

not clear in the Roman and Roman-Dutch law. However,

between 1888 and 1903 laws were passed in the Cape, Natal,

Free State and Transvaal to lay down the principle clearly

that the state was subject to the jurisdiction of the

courts. Provisions providing for specific expiry periods

and requirements of notice followed shortly thereafter.



Regarding the necessity and desirability of notice

requirements as envisaged by the Bill, the Constitutional

Court in the Mohlomi case made, inter alia, the following

remarks:



 An insistence on notices of the kind required by section

 113(1) is by no means peculiar to the particular

 proceedings that it governs. Similar conditions precedent

 to the institution of actions are, and have long been,

 familiar features of our statutory terrain, especially

 the part occupied by departments of state, provincial

 administrations and local authorities once they become

 prospective defendants. The conventional explanation for

 demanding prior notification of any intention to sue such
28 September 2000                           Page 129 of 177


 an organ of Government is that, with its extensive

 activities and large staff, which tends to shift, it

 needs the opportunity to investigate claims laid against

 it, to consider them responsibly and to decide, before

 getting embroiled in litigation at public expense,

 whether it ought to accept, reject or endeavour to settle

 them.



The court continues:



 Rules that limit the time during which litigation may be

 launched are common in our legal system as well as many

 others. Inordinate delays in litigating damage the

 interests of justice. They protract the disputes over the

 rights and obligations sought to be enforced, prolonging

 the uncertainty of all concerned about their affairs.

 Nor, in the end, is it always possible to adjudicate

 satisfactorily on cases that have gone stale. By then,

 witnesses may no longer be available to testify. The

 memories of one whose testimony can still be obtained may

 have faded and become unreliable. Documentary evidence

 may have disappeared. Such rules prevent procrastination

 and the harmful consequences of it. They, thus, serve a

 purpose to which no exception in principle can cogently
28 September 2000                            Page 130 of 177


 be taken.



Further arguments that could be raised in support of the

provisions of the Bill, and which have already been raised

in the SA Law Commission's 1985 report, are, amongst

others, the following. Organs of the state are obliged by

law to follow cautious and sometimes cumbersome procedures.

Organs of state operate on an annual budget and must be

notified of possible claims as soon as possible. Organs of

state need time to deliberate and consider questions of

policy and the possibility of settlements. If a settlement

can be arrived at, unnecessary costs are saved. Organs of

state act in the public interest and not for gain. Certain

organs of state are obliged by law to render services in

the public interest which expose them to actions. Because

public funds are involved, organs of state must guard

against unfounded claims.



I am aware that, over the years, some judges have drawn

attention to the adverse effect on claimants of

requirements like those provided for in the Bill. Mr

Justice Innes then a judge of the Appellate Division,

described them in Benning v Union Government as

``conditions which clog the ordinary right of an aggrieved
28 September 2000                             Page 131 of 177


person to seek the assistance of a court of law''. In Avex

Air v Borough of Vryheid, Mr Justice Botha, then a judge of

the Appellate Division, referred to them as ``hampering as

it does the ordinary rights of an aggrieved person to seek

the assistance of the courts''.



I also realise that certain counterarguments could also be

raised against the provisions of the Bill. For example,

organs of state are not the only defendants who have

extensive activities and a fluctuating workforce. Large

companies experience the same problems, but do not enjoy

special protection. Although it is in the public interest

that public funds should not be wasted, it is also in the

public interest that well-founded claims should not fail as

a result of strict procedural requirements.



Although these counterarguments may be valid, I am of the

opinion, and I think that members of this House will agree

with me, that when the pros and cons of the provisions of

the Bill are considered, one can come to no other

conclusion than that the advantages of those provisions far

outweigh any disadvantage which they may have. I also agree

with the Constitutional Court's remark in the Mohlomi case

that rules that limit the time during which litigation may
28 September 2000                            Page 132 of 177


be launched, such as the provisions of this Bill, serve a

purpose to which no exception in principle can cogently be

taken. Furthermore, it is important to know that the Bill

empowers the court, upon application by a creditor, and if

certain requirements are met, to condone such creditor's

failure to comply with the notice requirements provided for

in the Bill.



I would like to make use of this opportunity to thank the

chairperson of the portfolio committee, Adv Johnny de

Lange, and members of that committee for the hard work they

have put into the consideration and improvement of this

Bill. I am of the opinion that the high standard which this

committee has set for itself in its approach to and

processing of legislation in general is, once again,

reflected in the manner in which the committee dealt with

this Bill.



I have noted the contents of the portfolio committee's

report on the Bill, and I would like to give the committee

the assurance that I will see to it that my department

attends, as a matter of urgency, to the issues which fall

within our line function. [Applause.]
28 September 2000                            Page 133 of 177


Adv J H DE LANGE: Chairperson, ladies and gentlemen, hon

members, I rise in unconditional support of this Bill on

behalf of the ANC, and also to thank all the parties that

were involved with the drafting of this Bill. It has been

passed without any opposition, but more importantly, it is

an incredibly technical and difficult Bill. We had to sit

long hours and spend much time in trying to really sort out

what the law is in this regard. I really want to thank

everyone for the role they have played in this regard. Of

course, that includes the officials from the department and

the SA Law Commission who have assisted. They really have

had to keep their wits about them.



Before I say a few words on the Bill, I just want to raise

one issue to which the Minister alluded towards the end of

his input. It is the fact that, once again, we had to amend

parts of the Black Administration Act. All the parties have

found it quite extraordinary that the Black Administration

Act has not as yet been reviewed. As members know, the

Black Administration Act, which was passed in 1927, was the

cornerstone for the manner in which Africans were treated

in this country under the apartheid government. Our

government committee is making, I think, the third

amendment to this Act. Furthermore, about a week ago the
28 September 2000                            Page 134 of 177


High Court found that certain provisions in the regulations

that deal with intestate black estates are

unconstitutional. It is very clear that this Bill is

iniquitous. It was one of the cornerstones of apartheid.



As far as our department is concerned, we have dealt with

those parts that we administer. But the problem is that

most of the Bill falls under other departments. Therefore,

we really are urging Government to try to get the

departments together in order, once and for all, to review

this legislation and get rid of those parts that we

particularly do not need anymore, which I think will

probably be the whole Bill. I cannot imagine that even one

word of it should stay on the Statute Book. I raise this on

behalf of the whole committee, because I think this is

really important. As I have said, most of the aspects have

already been amended by our department, but the problem is

to get the other departments to review the other aspects.



As has already been mentioned, this Bill really deals with

a difficult part of our law, which is the question of what

restrictions we place on litigants who want to bring cases

against the state. For example, what time limits do we set

and what procedural steps do we take to create limitations
28 September 2000                             Page 135 of 177


for a person litigating against the state?



As members know, the cornerstone of dealing with

prescription in this country is the Prescription Act of

1969. This is an old and archaic Act. We have made

reference to this in our resolution. It seems to us that

the whole area of prescription needs to be reviewed. We

cannot rely on this 1969 Act, particularly because we have

found in our law that there are more exceptions to the rule

than otherwise. There are more pieces of legislation that

deviate from the Prescription Act than comply with it.



This was brought about during the apartheid era. On the one

hand periods of prescription were provided for in the

Prescription Act, of which there were many - the most

important one being a three-year prescription period,

except when one of many disabilities applied, such as in

the case of minors. On the other hand, a lot of other laws,

for example in terms of the police, defence, correctional

services, intelligence, the Public Service, and provincial

and local government, were passed,   creating further

restrictions, not only on the time in which one could bring

a case, but also in terms of other procedural restrictions.

For example, in most of these cases one had to bring a
28 September 2000                            Page 136 of 177


notice within one month or six months from the date the

action arose. If one did not meet those requirements, then

one's case simply prescribed and one could not bring a case

anymore.



Therefore, if one studies this Bill one realises the fact

that what it does - and it is sad that its name originally

referred to limitation of legal proceedings - is that it

extends the rights of people. Firstly, what we have done is

to harmonise or create uniformity of all those laws that we

deal with in the Bill in terms of prescription. We have

repealed all those Acts that limit the period to lower than

three years, and have made the Prescription Act now apply

to all those laws. This will mean, at the very least, that

one will always have a prescription period of three years.

To use an example, the South African Police Service Act at

present provides for a prescription period of one year, but

once we have passed this legislation the prescription

period will move up to three years in cases against the

police.



Therefore, when it comes to state institutions or what we

have defined as organs of state - which we have defined

more narrowly in this legislation than in the Constitution,
28 September 2000                               Page 137 of 177


but still very broadly - being sued, both contractually and

delictually, we have now changed the prescription period to

a more balanced period of at least three years.



Let me say this before I get to the second point. On that

first point of prescription, I must mention that we have

not included a review of all legislation dealing with

prescription. For example, the Motor Vehicle Accidents Act

is not included in this legislation. This Act has its own

rules pertaining to prescription. The President has

established a commission to review all aspects of the Motor

Vehicle Accidents Act and we felt that that commission

should also look at the area of prescription.



The same goes for the Workmen's Compensation Act. We have

not included it in this Bill because we felt it needed to

be addressed separately. On the whole, other than these,

most other pieces of legislation dealing with prescription

are contained in this Bill.



Secondly, this Bill also provides that in all these cases a

notice must be provided to the organ of state against which

one litigates. Such a notice must be lodged within six

months after the debt becomes due. In the case of a delict,
28 September 2000                            Page 138 of 177


the debt, for example, becomes due on the day of a car

accident. Within six months of that happening, one has to

let the organ of state know, by notice, that one is going

to proceed against it.



However, we included a further innovation which did not

exist previously. That is that if one does not give one's

notice within the six-month period, we allow such a person

to approach the court, and if he or she can give sufficient

reasons why he or she did not give notice in time, the

court can condone the fact that a notice was not given.

Therefore, in theory, until one's prescription period has

passed, which will usually be three years, one would still

be able to apply for condonation if one did not give notice

in time.



Hon members can therefore see that we have, on the one

hand, extended people's rights by extending the period

within which people can litigate. On the other hand, we

have tried to retain some certainty for the organs of

state. We have tried to create a balance. Thus, even in

cases where people did not strictly stay within the

parameters of the law, courts can decide if they have a

good enough reason not to have given notice. And if they
28 September 2000                            Page 139 of 177


have a good enough reason, then, of course, it can be

condoned.



I therefore feel that, on the whole, we now have a very

balanced piece of legislation regulating when one wants to

sue or litigate against organs of state. Firstly, we have

extended the rights of our people by extending the period

of prescription. This is essential, especially in the rural

areas where people are more illiterate, and it could take

some time before they reach a lawyer or can actually make

their case known. It will give them more leeway and enable

them to litigate at a later stage.



Secondly, of course, we have also created some certainty

for Government in the sense that there has to be a notice

period. Yet, we have not made it inflexible, because the

court can still condone it.



A lot of what we have done has flowed from our new

Constitution, which stipulates that every person has the

right to a court hearing of any dispute he or she would

want to place before the court. On the basis of the

interpretation of that right the Constitutional Court has,

in the Mohlomi case, decided that the notices required by
28 September 2000                            Page 140 of 177


the Defence Act were unconstitutional.



In my opinion we have gone even further than the Mohlomi

case, and I have no doubt that we have complied with both

our Constitution and the ruling in the Mohlomi case, and

that we have brought everything in line with the

Constitution. In my view we have, in this regard, created a

much better and more humane regime around prescription

periods.



As I have said, we also passed a resolution which deals

extensively with issues which we could not include in this

legislation. The most important of these is the Black

Administration Act. We think the whole Prescription Act

should also be reviewed, as well as a few other issues. I

suggest that everyone should read about these in the

resolution. [Applause.]



Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, Minister and other Ministers, I

rise on behalf of the IFP to support the Bill. We support

this Bill, not only because it is a good piece of

legislation, but because the Bill has actually come a long

way since the dark days when these Bills were prescriptive.

The Bill does, indeed, cover many areas. In the past, the
28 September 2000                            Page 141 of 177


miners could not bring a lawsuit against Government

institutions but, from now on, they may do so. One other

thing that I want to address is an issue raised by my

colleague in the FF ...



... die agb Corné Mulder. Hy het nou die dag bekommerd

geraak oor my toespraak tydens die debat oor Zimbabwe en

wel omdat ek in isiZulu gepraat het. Miskien was sy

besorgdheid geregverdig. Die probleem is dat daar miskien

nie 'n tolk was nie. Ek wil hom verseker dat as ons in ons

eie taal praat, dit nie is omdat ons probeer om iets weg te

steek nie. Daar is baie ongeletterde swartes daarbuite wat

nie kan verstaan as ons Afrikaans praat nie. Hulle mag dink

ons praat miskien in 'n hoogdrawende taal wat hulle nie kan

verstaan nie. Ek wil die agb Mulder ook verseker dit is nie

soos daardie toespraak van my oupa Dingaan kort voor die

Slag van Bloedrivier nie. Hy moet net nie bekommerd raak

nie. Hy moet rustig bly. Ons kan nie weer vir hom sê wat in

daardie toespraak gesê is nie. (Translation of Afrikaans

paragraph follows.)



[... the hon Corné Mulder. He became concerned about my

speech during the debate on Zimbabwe the other day, because

I spoke in isiZulu. Perhaps his concern was justified. The
28 September 2000                            Page 142 of 177


problem is that there may not have been an interpreter. I

want to assure him that when we speak in our own language,

it is not because we are attempting to hide anything. There

are many illiterate blacks out there who cannot understand

what we are saying when we speak Afrikaans. They may think

that we are speaking in a grandiloquent language which they

cannot understand. I also want to assure the hon Mulder

that it is not like that speech of my grandfather Dingaan

shortly before the Battle of Blood River. He should not

become worried. He must remain calm. We cannot repeat to

him what was said in that speech.]



Mangisho-ke lapha ukuthi lo mthetho ufike ngesikhathi

esiwulungele kube kufanele ukuthi, ngabe ngempela, kudala

wafika. Uma umuntu ewubheka lo mthetho, uqinisekisa

ngezinto eziningi lapho umuntu engathola khona ukuthi

nengane ingakwazi ukumelwa. Uma umuntu efuna ukufaka

isicelo, esedlulelwe yisikhathi, naye lowo muntu unelungelo

lokuya enkantolo ayofaka leso simangalo ukuze inkantolo

imelekelele ukuthi akwazi ukuqhubeka ngalelo cala.



Kodwa-ke engithanda ukuthi ngikubeke lapha kuNgqongqoshe

ngukuthi, ngeshwa, umThetho omayelana nezingozi zemigwaqo,

i-MVA, asikaxoxi kabanzi ngawo. Kunemitheshwana lapha
28 September 2000                            Page 143 of 177


engibona ukuthi impela kuzofuneka bayichibiyele.

Njengokuthi nje uma umuntu efelwe yingane, ishayiswe

yimoto, lapho eseya emthethweni eyofuna ukunxephezeliswa,

kufika kuthiwe: Cha, awulahlekelwanga yilutho ngoba leyo

ngane ibingangenisi mali. Kuye kuthi umuntu efelwe

yinkosikazi athi uma eyofaka isicelo sokuthi anxephezeliswe

kuthiwe kuye, cha, akukho sinxephezeliso angasithola ngoba

lowo muntu kade engangenisi mali kodwa umuntu ebe

elahlekelwe yigugu lakhe. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs

follows.)



[I would like to mention that this Bill comes at the right

time, actually it is a long awaited Bill. When one looks at

it, it says that even a child can be represented. If one

wants to institute an overdue application, one has the

right to make that application in court so that the court

will assist one in continuing one's case.



What I want to say to the hon the Minister is that we have

not discussed the Motor Vehicle Accidents Act, legislation

on road incidents. There are clauses which I think will

have to be amended. For instance, if a person loses a child

in a road incident, when that person goes to court for

compensation, he is told that he has not lost anything,
28 September 2000                             Page 144 of 177


because that child did not bring any money home. If a man

who has lost his wife goes to court for compensation, he is

told that he will not be compensated because his deceased

wife did not bring any money home. But be that as it may,

the person has lost something precious to him.]



O ka utlwisisa hore ho jwang ha mosadi wa hao ya motle a o

lahlehetse, ebe o bolellwa hore, tjhe, eno ha a na taba, ha

o a lahlehelwa hobane mosadi eno o ne a sa tlise letho

lapeng. Empa o lahlehetswe. Ke ne ke lakatsa he hore ha ho

shejwa Molao ono, ka nnete ho ke ho shejwe taba eno ya hore

motho a fumane phumula-meokgo ha eba a lahlehetswe ke setho

sa hae seo a neng a se rata haholo, ho ena le hore ho thwe

se ne se sena mosebetsi. (Translation of Sesotho paragraph

follows.)



[One can understand how it must feel to be told, after

losing one's beautiful wife, that one should not worry

because she was not the breadwinner. The fact is that one

has lost a loved one.   When the Bill is being considered,

what must be looked into is the issue of compensation for

the loss of a loved one rather than the question of whether

or not that person supported the families financially.]
28 September 2000                            Page 145 of 177


Siyakubonga lokhu ngokuthi kufike ngesikhathi esikahle

ngoba phela uma umuntu engekwazi ukufaka icala enkantolo,

esedlulelwe yisikhathi, kungenzeka ukuthi abaningi bethu

balahlekelwe ngokuningi njengoba sasilahlekelwa ekuqaleni.

Sekukuhle-ke manje uma uHulumeni osephethe eseze

wasibonelela. [lhlombe.] (Translation of Zulu paragraph

follows.)



[We appreciate this Bill since it has come at the right

time. If a person cannot make an overdue application, many

of us will lose many things, as happened in the past. It is

good now that the present Government is treating us with

more consideration. [Applause.]]



Mrs S M CAMERER: Chairperson, the New NP supports this

Bill. As acting spokesperson on Justice for the DA, it is a

pleasure for me to say, for the first time that I have

occasion in this House, that the DA supports the Bill. My

colleague, Hendrik Schmidt of the DP will also confirm this

later on in the debate.



The pleasure also derives from being able to speak on

behalf of a much larger group of democratically elected

representatives of the people - up from 28 to 68 members -
28 September 2000                            Page 146 of 177


which also includes the FA. On behalf of the DA, I also

support the remarks of the chairperson, the hon Johnny de

Lange, on the Black Administration Act.



This Bill is not controversial as far as it goes. It is

supported by all the parties in the House, as far as I am

aware. Since this Bill was originally introduced to

Parliament by the Minister of Justice, it has not only

changed its name but also, to an extent, its nature, but

its purpose remains the same as originally intended by the

SA Law Commission, namely, to place limits on legal

proceedings against Government institutions. It is

interesting to note the resolute manner in which the

present governing party appears to have adopted the

penchant for euphemisms and euphemistic titles of the

previous government.



The Limitation of Legal Proceedings against Government

Institutions Bill has now become the Institution of Legal

Proceedings against Organs of State Bill. But the

limitations, indeed, remain. That having been said, I do

not disagree with the chairperson, the hon De Lange, that

in some cases, the prescription periods have been extended

and the parameters and structure for the limitations have
28 September 2000                            Page 147 of 177


indeed been greatly improved by this offering of the

Portfolio Committee on Justice.



As often happens, the original Bill has been almost

entirely redrafted in the committee - as the chairperson

indicated - with the very able assistance of, as usual,

Messrs Labuschagne and De Lange of the Department of

Justice. Significant improvements to the Bill include the

tightening of definitions and extension of the application

of the definition of organs of state and, thereby, the Bill

and more detailed, rational provisions relating to giving

of notices and service and process.



The main thrust of the Bill, as has been indicated, is to

create as much uniformity as possible in the provisions

relating to the institution of legal proceedings against

Government bodies or organs of state as they are defined in

the Bill, for the recovery of debt and to further regulate

the periods of prescription which apply to the debts of

Government. While the Bill is highly technical and creates

greater uniformity and certainty in relation to legal cases

instituted against the state, this is to be welcomed, which

is the main reason why we in the New NP and the Democratic

Alliance support the legislation.
28 September 2000                            Page 148 of 177


The question of whether such limitations fall foul of the

Constitution remains to be resolved, as has been indicated

in the resolution of the committee. In fact, the extent to

which different periods of notice of proceedings and

differing prescription periods applied to various areas of

government was quite a revelation and certainly did not

favour, in the past, the man or woman in the street seeking

justice against a Government body. This has, hopefully,

been remedied to some extent.



Both ``organ of state'' and ``debtor'' are widely defined

in the Bill. ``Organ of state'' includes all national and

provincial government departments, municipalities and

officials or institutions exercising powers and functions

in terms of the Constitution or provincial constitutions.

``Debt'' includes debts arising from unlawful acts and

omissions for which the organs of state may be liable to

pay damages, based either on delictual or wrongful action

on the part of the institution, and official or statutory

liability. However, the Bill will not apply to any debt

arising from contractual liability.



The Bill imposes a duty on any creditor to give the organ

of state written notice of the intention to institute legal
28 September 2000                            Page 149 of 177


proceedings for the recovery of the debt which must be

served on the Government body within six months of the debt

becoming due. Full particulars of the debt must be given in

the notice. But, recognition that we are in the information

technology age has been incorporated into the Bill, for the

first time in legislation before this House, by providing

that the notice may indeed be sent by e-mail or fax.

However, the Bill also implies that such a drastic step

would only be resorted to in order to beat a deadline as a

hard copy of the notice must be delivered within a week of

the e-mail being sent. Nevertheless, this provision, in an

otherwise legalistic and technical Bill, has created new

millennium history and presumably, the precedent thus

created will be followed in future in legislation dealing

with the provision of notice.



The matter of the six-month notice period is not

unproblematic in the sense that it reduces a 12-month

notice period applicable in certain provisions being

repealed by the Bill. However, a creditor may apply to

court for condonation of failure to give notice within the

six-month period which the court may grant on good cause

shown, and provided that the organ of state is not

unreasonably prejudiced. The Bill also deals with
28 September 2000                            Page 150 of 177


prescription of these debts.



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member,

your speaking time has expired.



Mrs S M CAMERER: Chairperson, my colleague will deal with

the other aspects of the Bill.



Adv H C SCHMIDT: Chairperson, this Bill is of a highly

technical and legal nature. The question which needs to be

answered is whether the Bill, in regulating the institution

of legal proceedings against organs of state, constitutes a

threat to the rights of citizens.



More in particular, we should ask whether the Bill also

grants protection to impoverished people whose rights have

been grossly infringed and who, firstly, may be unable to

meet the necessary deadline of giving notice within six

months after the debt has become due, or, secondly, may

only become aware of their rights to compensation long

after the event.



The answer to this question, in our view, should be an

affirmative one, in that the limitation of six months for
28 September 2000                            Page 151 of 177


the giving of notice of intended legal proceedings against

organs of state, as defined in the Bill, is reasonable and

justifiable in terms of the Constitution. The provision for

a court to condone a creditor's failure to give timeous

notice within six months after a debt has arisen is

entirely consistent with the common law concerning the

entitlement to apply for condonation of the late

notification of the institution of such legal proceedings.



The mere fact that a specified period is mentioned in the

Bill does not exclude any affected person from bringing

such an application against an organ of state after the six

months has expired. The circumstances of each and every

individual case will have to be considered and weighed

against the requirements, set out in the Bill, being that

the debt has not been extinguished by prescription, that

good cause exists for the failure by the applicant and that

the organ of state was not unreasonably prejudiced by the

failure of the creditor to notify the organ of state

timeously. The decision, therefore, lies squarely within

the discretion of the court.



It is to be noted that not all civil claims are dealt with

by this Bill. Two important exceptions should be mentioned.
28 September 2000                            Page 152 of 177


The first is the exclusion of all contractual matters when

the organ of state as a contracting party is affected. This

is so because the reason for the granting of a six months'

notice period to organs of state is based on the practical

requirement that, due to their size and the number of

issues being dealt with simultaneously, including the

institution of various legal actions, an organ of state

needs to know which actions are contemplated to be

instituted against it, in order to preserve the necessary

records and/or obtain evidence pertaining to the events

relied upon by the other party in suing it. Secondly, a

party suing another person, be it a natural or a juristic

person, is only bound, in terms of this Bill, to give

notification to an organ of state as defined in the Bill.



A further important aspect of this Bill relates to the

intention to provide uniformity for the extinction of debts

by prescription. This, in short, means that excluding a

small number of existing Acts, the normal period of three

years has to lapse since the debt arose before it can be

stated that a debt has, in fact, prescribed. This is in

favour of those persons and/or institutions who intend to

sue organs of state for debt arising due to any unlawful

act or commission for which an organ of state is liable for
28 September 2000                            Page 153 of 177


the payment of damages. In this respect, the Bill does away

with certain more limited time periods of, inter alia, 12

months for the prescription of certain debts, by means of a

schedule repealing sections of, inter alia, the Black

Administration Act of 1927, the Merchant Shipping Act and

various other legal aspects.



It is, however, unfortunate and surprising to find that the

Black Administration Act of 1927, or at least certain

sections thereof, is still operational. It is our view as

the DP that the simplification and uniformity of a

notification period, an extinctive prescription period of

three years, is desirable to ensure that little is left to

chance and the ignorance of people who intend to sue other

organs of state not defined in this Bill, and who do not do

so due to a lack of knowledge of the particular provisions

prescribed, within the particular Act applicable to the

civil action. We therefore support the request by the

portfolio committee that certain sections of a number of

Acts listed in the reports of the portfolio committee,

inter alia the Compensation for Occupational Injuries and

Diseases Act, the Road Accident Fund Act and the Legal

Succession to the South African Transport Services Act, be

reviewed.
28 September 2000                            Page 154 of 177


The DP therefore supports the Bill as it provides, inter

alia, for well-defined periods relating to a notification

period of six months as well as the reinstatement of the

period of three years pertaining to the prescription of

debt by extinction.



Mr M E MABETA: Chairperson, the UDM fully supports this

Bill. We also agree with the resolutions taken by the

committee that the provisions have to be revisited in order

to arrive at a more uniform notice period in notices and

prescriptions, even though this means that certain Acts,

such as the Black Administration Act, have to be visited in

a piecemeal approach.



However, the end result will be a more harmonious, uniform

and sustainable system which accommodates differences,

where appropriate, in a manner that does not lead to

negative consequences such as litigation, uncertainty and

injustice. They are unnecessary and come at a great cost to

the public.



We fully support the Bill.



Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, hon Minister, it is undeniable
28 September 2000                            Page 155 of 177


that the various statutory provisions that limited the

right of a person to institute proceedings against organs

of state resulted in much injustice over the years.



When one, furthermore, considers the multiplicity of

provisions regulating notice and prescription periods, it

is apparent that these provisions created a legal minefield

for lawyers attempting to assist clients in instituting

actions against organs of state. Thus, in order to create

uniformity, existing provisions, with certain exceptions,

are repealed by this Bill, and substituted with uniform

notice and prescription periods which will apply in respect

of all proceedings against organs of state, as defined,

arising out of a debt.



The question arose during the committee's deliberations on

the desirability of organs of state receiving prior notice

of such proceedings at all. The rationale for the notice

requirement is that Government institutions should be

notified of intended litigation to enable them to

investigate an incident properly, and if necessary, arrange

to settle the matter.



This requirement was confirmed by the Constitutional Court
28 September 2000                            Page 156 of 177


in the Mohlomi decision, referred to by the hon the

Minister and Adv De Lange. One should further bear in mind

that condonation can be obtained where notice is not

timeously given, and that such condonation will be granted

where the action has not prescribed, where good cause is

shown and where there is no unreasonable prejudice to the

state.



The ACDP supports this legislation as it creates

uniformity, subject to certain exceptions, regarding both

notice and prescription periods applicable when one wishes

to recover damages from an organ of state. It furthermore

addresses the manifest inequality which existed between

persons who wished to claim against organs of state, as

opposed to claiming against some other defendant.



Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Chairperson, hon Minister, the

introduction of this Bill is the culmination of a

recommendation made in 1985 regarding time limits for the

institution of actions against the state.



This Bill, is an adaptation of the draft legislation which

encompassed the recommendations contained in the report of

the SA Law Commission and has taken into account changes in
28 September 2000                            Page 157 of 177


legislation since that report was published and the

reasoning of the Constitutional Court regarding the

constitutionality of a provision in the Defence Act, which

resulted in the SA Law Commission submitting a

supplementary report.



Clause 2 of this Bill clearly lists circumstances in which

the provisions will not apply to debts, eg where the debt

has been extinguished by prescription before the Bill comes

into operation, where legal proceedings have been

instituted in respect of a debt before the Bill comes into

operation, in which case the proceedings must be continued

and concluded as if the Bill had not been passed. These

repeals and amendments will facilitate and expedite the

proceedings.



Clause 3 contains the main thrust of the Bill, namely that

no creditor may institute legal proceedings for the

recovery of a debt against an organ of state, unless such

creditor has given the organ of state written notice of his

or her intention to do so or the organ of state has given

written consent for the institution of legal proceedings

without such notice.
28 September 2000                               Page 158 of 177


Clause 4 sets out different ways in which a notice of

intention to institute legal proceedings may be served on

an organ of state. It goes on to explain clearly where a

notice has been sent ... [Time expired.]



Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, in a democratic country the

people, through political parties, decide how the various

organs of state should function at the economic, social and

political levels. The state has a duty to govern social

order and implement legitimate action against any citizen

who violates the laws and administration of the country.

Likewise, the state has to lead by example, and must be

accountable to any citizen if a particular contract of

performance has been breached. Therefore, the Institution

of Legal Proceedings against Organs of State Bill empowers

creditors to institute legal action, subject to fair

criteria and within a reasonable period of six months,

against the state to recover damages or debt.



The Bill facilitates the course of the administration of

justice without prejudicing creditor or debtor. The MF

supports the Institution of Legal Proceedings against

Organs of State Bill.
28 September 2000                            Page 159 of 177


Ms F I CHOHAN-KOTA: Chairperson, hon members, in this

debate one has often heard people say how technical this

Bill is. In fact, this is a trick of the trade. Lawyers

often say that things are very technical so that they do

not have to explain the practical import of what they are

saying.



This Bill, as it happens, is of enormous practical import.

As any practising attorney will tell you, the time periods

and the prescription periods that applied previously posed

an enormous challenge and often led to many injustices. In

some instances a person who had suffered damages at the

hands of the state would have as little as a month to

institute action or lose forever the right to claim.



One could legitimately ask: Why should the state be treated

differently from other litigants? The argument goes that

the state needs to be treated differently when sued so that

its complex bureaucracies can regulate their affairs.

However, the organisational and functional needs of the

state have to be balanced with the rights of the

individual, particularly in our constitutional

dispensation, and so the Act provides for the following

innovations. A six-month period now applies for notices to
28 September 2000                             Page 160 of 177


be served on the state. Servicing of these notices can now

be made in the form of fax or e-mail. If the notice period,

for some good reason, is not able to be complied with by

the litigant, then the court is able to condone this

shortcoming. Furthermore, a three-year period is allowed

for the issue of summons, as opposed to the 12-month period

that would generally apply.



In short, this Bill strikes a good balance between the

rights of the individual and the peculiar needs of the

state. It simplifies the area of prescription and notice

periods when the state is sued, and I am sure that

everybody will welcome this new Act. [Applause.]



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I notice that

the hon Mr Salie Manie's vacuum cleaner has not done an

efficient job of clearing this House entirely of its

members. Hon members, that concludes ... Oh, we still have

to hear from the Minister. [Interjections.]



The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT:

Chairperson, I do not think I should say anything, save to

thank all the hon members and the parties they represented

here for supporting this Bill, and also to say that I have
28 September 2000                             Page 161 of 177


given an undertaking to the chairperson of the portfolio

committee that within the next six months we will be able

to respond as a department to all the issues raised in the

memorandum that the portfolio committee has kindly given us

on this Bill - as government, rather than as the

department. [Applause.]



Debate concluded.



Bill read a second time.



The House adjourned at 17:15.

                           __________



        ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS



ANNOUNCEMENTS:



National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:



1.   The Speaker and the Chairperson:



     The following member has been appointed to serve on the

     Committee mentioned, viz:
28 September 2000                                Page 162 of 177


     Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence:



     Pillay, S R



National Assembly:



1.   The Speaker:



     The following members have been appointed to serve on

     the Committee mentioned, viz:



     Ad hoc Committee on Pan-African Parliament:



     ANC



     Doidge, G Q; Ebrahim, E I; Gandhi, E; Hangana, N E;

     Jeffery, J J; Kalako, M V (Alt); Lekgoro, M K; Magazi,

     N M (Alt); Maphalala, M A; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A

     D; Masithela, N H (Alt); Mokaba, P R (Alt); Ncube, B N

     Z; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M N; Ramotsamai, C M P.



     DP

     Eglin, C W; Clelland, N.
28 September 2000                        Page 163 of 177

   IFP



   Van der Merwe, J H.



   New NP



   Geldenhuys, B; Schoeman, R S (Alt).



   UDM



   Abraham, T.



   ACDP



   Madasa, Z L.



   FF



   Mulder, P W A.



   AZAPO



   Mangena, M.
28 September 2000                             Page 164 of 177

COMMITTEE REPORTS:



National Assembly:



1.   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry

     on the Abuja Treaty, dated 20 September 2000:



         The Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry,

         having considered the request for approval by

         Parliament of the Treaty establishing the African

         Economic Community (Abuja Treaty, referred to it,

         recommends that the House, in terms of section

         231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said

         Treaty.



     Report to be considered.



2.   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Education on the

     Higher Education Amendment Bill [B 55 - 2000] (National

     Assembly - sec 75), dated 26 September 2000:



         The Portfolio Committee on Education, having

         considered the subject of the Higher Education

         Amendment Bill [B 55 - 2000] (National Assembly -
28 September 2000                                Page 165 of 177


          sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint

          Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the

          Bill with amendments [B 55A - 2000].



3.   Eighth Report of the Standing Committee on Public

     Accounts, dated 6 September 2000:



     The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having

     considered and examined the Report of the Auditor-

     General on the Financial Statements of Vote 9:

     Constitutional Development for the year ended 31 March

     1999 [RP 132-99], as well as certain papers referred to

     it, and having heard evidence, reports as follows:



     1.   Financial management and internal audit

          (Par 3.4, page 5)



          The Committee commends the Accounting officer on

          the solid foundation that has been laid on which

          the Department can build its financial management

          capacity. In particular, the dedicated focus on

          financial management as an essential part of

          general management is commendable, and the

          Committee is also keen to see the results of the
28 September 2000                           Page 166 of 177


       value-for-money tests in relation to work done on

       behalf of the Department by contractors outside the

       public sector. Most importantly, the Committee

       commends the Department on the steps taken to

       ensure appropriate control over the extensive

       transfer payments made by it.



       The Committee also took note of the Director-

       General's concern about the limited financial

       management expertise available in the public

       sector. Given the imminent implementation of the

       Public Finance Management Act, this expertise was

       becoming available only at a premium that may not

       be affordable in terms of the public sector pay

       scales.



       The Committee recommends that the Director-General

       persevere with the actions aimed at improved

       financial management, specifically with regard to

       the following aspects:



       (1) To ensure that the Audit Committee fully

           complies with the requirements of section 77 of

           the Public Finance Management Act, which could
28 September 2000                           Page 167 of 177


           entail the application of section 77(c).



       (2) To bring the Internal Audit Component up to

           full strength, especially with regard to the

           head of the unit, and ensure continuing

           professional training for the staff in

           question. The Monitoring Unit: Internal Audit

           and Audit Committees established within the

           Office of the Accountant-General should advise

           the Accounting Officer and the Audit Committee

           on the adequacy of the staffing of the

           Department's Internal Audit Unit in terms of

           generally accepted benchmarks, and report to

           the Committee in this regard.



       (3) To tighten up the relevant control measures to

           prevent any irregularities regarding cheques.



       With regard to other aspects relating to the

       implementation of the Public Finance Management

       Act, the Committee noted a number of commendable

       initiatives that the Accounting Officer had

       initiated, such as the recent review of the

       Department's approval of delegations as the first
28 September 2000                           Page 168 of 177


       major step towards implementation of the Act. The

       Committee also noted the interaction with the

       National Treasury with regard to the management

       information systems currently available to public

       sector management that will have to support the

       various reporting requirements of the Public

       Finance Management Act.



       The Committee therefore further recommends that -



       (a) the Accounting Officer report to the Committee

           regarding the manner in which the results of

           improved delegations will be measured, and

           whether any improvement has indeed been

           registered as a result;



       (b) the Accounting Officer report on the extent of

           the success of aligning the Department's

           business plan with the performance agreements

           of its senior managers;



       (c) the National Treasury provide the Committee

           with a brief report on the progress made with

           further improvements to the information systems
28 September 2000                            Page 169 of 177


            required by Accounting Officers in order to

            comply with their reporting responsibilities in

            terms of the Public Finance Management Act.



   2.   Multiparty negotiation process: Conference

        facilities at World Trade Centre

        (Par 3.1, page 2)



        The Committee heard evidence from the Special

        Investigating Unit on its investigation into

        possible irregularities in expenditure relating to

        the leasing of conference facilities at the World

        Trade Centre, reported on in the Auditor-General's

        Reports on the 1992-93 to 1997-98 financial years.



        Having referred the report of the Special

        Investigating Unit to the Auditor-General for

        comment, and having taken note of his comments, the

        Committee recommends that -



        (1) the Accounting Officer fully investigate the

            possibility that a double payment might have

            been made by the Department with regard to

            certain assets which were invoiced directly to
28 September 2000                               Page 170 of 177


            the Department but for which rental was also

            charged;



        (2) the Parliamentary Law Advisers be requested to

            comment on the Special Investigating Unit's

            opinion that any claim by the Department

            against the WTC cannot be recovered, owing to

            the Prescription Act; and



        (3) the Department of Public Service and

            Administration, in consultation with the

            National Treasury, report to the Committee

            whether appropriate disciplinary or other

            regulations exist that would enable action to

            be taken against Accounting Officers who allow

            prescription to take place, thereby resulting

            in a loss to the State.



   3.   Unauthorised expenditure, R217 215,05

        (Par 3.1.2(c), page 4)



        The Committee took note of the finding of an

        independent consultant, appointed by the Director-

        General, that no official could be held responsible
28 September 2000                             Page 171 of 177


         for the unauthorised expenditure. The Committee

         also took note that the Auditor-General concurred

         with the report of the consultant.



         The Committee therefore recommends that the

         unauthorised expenditure of R217 215,05 be approved

         by Parliament.



     Report to be considered.



4.   Ninth Report of the Standing Committee on Public

     Accounts, dated 6 September 2000:



     The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having

     considered and examined the Report of the Auditor-

     General on the Financial Statements of Vote 8:

     Communications for the year ended 31 March 1999 [RP

     131-99], as well as certain papers referred to it, and

     having heard evidence, reports as follows:



     The Committee commends the Department on its successful

     transition from a statutory body to a national

     Department of State and in particular on the efficient

     and professional manner in which the accounting systems
28 September 2000                            Page 172 of 177


   were transformed. However, the Committee wishes to note

   that although the issues reported in the Auditor-

   General's Report appear to be of lesser materiality,

   issues of non-compliance and weak internal controls

   often lead to irregularities.



   1.   Management and internal control (Par 2.2.4, page 2)



        The Committee noted the evidence of the Director-

        General on the action taken against an official who

        by his actions had disregarded the requirements of

        the financial regulations, Treasury Instructions

        and departmental rules.



        The Committee therefore recommends that the

        Director-General -



        (1) indicate to it how the success of the

            corrective measures already taken will prevent

            the repetition of similar transgressions; and



        (2) ensure that staff members are fully conversant

            with the measures to be implemented as well as

            with the applicable rules and regulations.
28 September 2000                            Page 173 of 177




   2.   Personnel expenditure (Par 2.2.6, page 6)



        The Committee has noted the evidence of the

        Director-General on the promotion and appointment

        of certain personnel, and the fact that these

        matters have not been finalised between the

        Department and the Office of the Auditor-General.

        The Committee has also noted that the Director-

        General is to seek legal opinion in this regard.

        The Committee therefore requests that he report

        back to the Committee on progress made.



   3.   Internal audit (Par 3.2.1, page 4)



        The Committee has taken cognisance of the processes

        in place to address deficiencies in the internal

        audit function, as well as those of getting

        internal control up to the required standard. A

        fully operational internal audit function is

        indispensable for the proper management of finance.



        The Committee welcomes the training workshops for

        personnel of the Department on the subject of
28 September 2000                            Page 174 of 177


        internal control. The Committee requests the

        Director-General to submit to it the following

        within two weeks of the tabling of this Report in

        the National Assembly:



        (1) A report on the abovementioned workshop.



        (2) A copy of the Audit Committee Charter.



        (3) A copy of the Internal Audit Charter.



        (4) The latest audit programme, approved by the

            Audit Committee.



   4.   Student loans (Par 3.3.1, page 5)



        The issue of student loans has not been resolved

        between the Auditor-General's Office and the

        Department. The Committee recommends that this

        issue be resolved and that the Department as well

        as the Auditor-General report back to the Committee

        as a matter of urgency.



   5.   Fruitless expenditure: Interest on credit card
28 September 2000                            Page 175 of 177


        accounts (Par 3.4.1, page 6)



        The Committee expresses its concern that the late

        settlements of accounts resulted in interest

        payments amounting to R47 270.



        The Committee views such fruitless expenditure in a

        very serious light, more so because it is a waste

        of tax- payers' money. It is encouraging to note

        that the Director-General has initiated steps to

        ensure that such a situation does not recur in

        future.



        The Committee urges the Department to ensure that

        the implementation of the corrective measures is

        maintained on an ongoing basis.



        The effectiveness of these measures will be closely

        monitored by the Committee, in conjunction with the

        Office of the Auditor-General.



   6.   Other debtors (Par 3.6, page 7)



        Regarding the sale of the former Capital Radio, it
28 September 2000                            Page 176 of 177


        is noted that this matter is before the courts and

        is therefore sub judice. The Committee also noted

        that the Director-General was confident that a

        future proposal will realise R10 million.



        The Committee therefore requests that the

        Department report the outcome of the court case to

        it, as well as the details of any future sale

        proposal.



   7.   General



        (1) Late submission of financial statements



            The Director-General assured the Committee

            that, in respect of the 1999-2000 financial

            year, the Department's financial statements

            would be submitted to the Auditor-General's

            Office before the required time. The Committee

            welcomed this assurance, especially in view of

            the requirements and provisions of the Public

            Finance Management Act.



        (2) Procurement process
28 September 2000                               Page 177 of 177


           Regarding the procurement process, the

           Committee recommends that the Director-General

           -



           (a) take appropriate steps to ensure adherence

                to all tender procedures; and



           (b) respond in writing regarding the contract

                for the sale of non-ferrous scrap metal of

                Telkom and the Post Office.



   Report to be considered.

								
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