APPROPRIATION BILL Parliament of South Africa

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					EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                          PAGE: 1 of 98

                           TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005




Members of the Extended Public Committee met in Committee Room E249

at 15:12.

House Chairperson Mr N P Nhleko, as Chairperson, took the Chair.


                           APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 28 – Housing:

The MINISTER OF HOUSING: Chairperson, hon members, I very quickly

had to make the necessary amendments to my speech to make sure that

it reflects a man, as opposed to a woman. [Laughter.]

We were hoping to have Dr Helena Dolny present with us today. She

is, however, unable to make it. As you all know, Dr Dolny is the

wife of the late Joe Slovo, who was the first Minister of Housing in

the free, democratic South Africa. We asked Dr Dolny to grace us
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                    PAGE: 2 of 98

with her presence, as we dedicate our Budget Vote, as a tribute, to

the late Comrade Joe Slovo.

This is the man who, as a young immigrant from Lithuania, arrived

on our shores carrying, according to his daughter, “a brown paper

bag containing fruit so overripe, its pulp was seeping”. But this

was a man who would mature to devote his entire adult life to the

cause of the liberation of the majority of South Africans, a man

who would craft and steer our initial attempts at righting the

wrongs of nearly 100 years, where every attempt was made to block

the inclusion of black people in urban areas. He left us with a

rich legacy of confronting the deep assumptions that underlie

development and underdevelopment.

As we enter our second decade of freedom, we want to remember those

who gave their entire lives to make it possible for us to be where

we are today. I, in particular, am now able to elaborate on our new

Comprehensive Plan on Sustainable Human Settlements, because Joe

Slovo put all the fundamentals in place, making my work so much

more possible and so much easier.

At this point, I just want to recount to you something that

happened at my office earlier this week. We had wanted to present

Dr Helena Dolny with a portrait of her late husband, Joe Slovo. So,

my office finds the necessary artist and phones our communications
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                    PAGE: 3 of 98

department to find a picture of Joe Slovo, and in came, page after

page on our fax, thousands and thousands of Joe Slovo informal

settlements. [Laughter.] It took us a long time to communicate with

the department that the Joe Slovo we were looking for was actually

the man.

We want to acknowledge the late Joe Slovo, because we in the ANC

would like to acknowledge that whatever policies we put in place,

were put in place before any one of us took office with the ANC. I

would like to think that this will crystallise into a tradition and

that I will in turn hand over this tradition to whoever may succeed

me. This is premised on the hope that whoever comes in will take

over the reigns and take us forward in the ANC tradition and

culture. This is the circle of our lives where each one of us is a

part of a whole, greater by far than any sum of its parts.

I am very grateful at finding myself surrounded by this rich

culture and tradition where every contribution we are making is

recognised. This is the tradition of humility that we take over

from the life of Joe Slovo. Governance is not about an individual

and, for the ANC in particular, governance is about all of us and

about all our contributions.

The immense misery and suffering that apartheid caused us as a

people dictates that the tradition is kept. In our case, Joe Slovo
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                    PAGE: 4 of 98

provided the netting and each one of our efforts will complete the

tapestry of our history.

Just in case memory has faded about where we come from, time and

again, the ugly humanitarian consequences come to haunt us in the

most gruesome way. On 29 April, just two days after we celebrated

our 11th anniversary, Danielskuil awoke to a heinous crime.

Danielskuil is a small town near Kimberley, a town that in

different circumstances would be enjoying tranquillity, basking in

the returns of the tourist potential provided by the natural

sinkhole known by the very politically incorrect name of


In this particular town, a 102-year old woman had been attacked and

raped in the sanctity of her house – a 102-year-old woman. The

circumstances of how the poor in our country live are well known to

all of us. In this particular case, it is alleged that the woman

was assaulted by a 42-year-old man who had easy access to the tiny

house that the old lady shared with other occupants, because in the

circumstances of our lives this is all too possible.

That the crime could be committed in these circumstances, in the

sanctity of a home, gives ample evidence of the persistently absent

security and comfort in our houses that 50 years ago the Congress

of the People in Kliptown clamoured for. Thus, social ills of the
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                    PAGE: 5 of 98

nature that took place in Danielskuil, on the night of 29 April,

are destined to dominate our lives, if the conditions that permit

them are not immediately removed. It places an enormous burden on

us to provide that which will help us lift our communities out of

the barbarism that drives a man to assault a woman of such

venerable age.

After 50 years, therefore, the clamour for houses, security and

comfort continues to reverberate through our urban and rural

landscapes. This is because housing is such a basic and a defining

aspect of human life. In short, it is in relation to the provision

of houses, security and comfort that our efforts as government to

combat poverty will be measured. For indeed, it can never be

possible for any society to satisfactorily combat its social ills

when its members continue to live in conditions that permit the

commission of the same ills. At this point I would like to

acknowledge that I have here with me the Minister of Safety and

Security. So, if anyone of you recognises a man smiling from ear to

ear, it is he. [Laughter.]

We cannot ever hope to create communities, or even morality among

some of our people, until we have addressed the issue of houses.

Housing is core to the realisation and the protection of those

liberties that we fought for for so long.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                    PAGE: 6 of 98

Since we unveiled the Comprehensive Plan on Sustainable Human

Settlements in September last year, we have sought to reconfirm our

commitment to providing a life of dignity. This is the duty that

any government has towards its citizens, for how else do we remain

accountable and answerable to those to whom we owe our legitimacy?

This is what our people asked of us 50 years ago when they crafted

the Freedom Charter, understanding that decent houses were a

prerequisite for comfort and security.

We announced, last year, our intention to eradicate informal

settlements within a specific period. This, however, was met with a

great deal of scepticism.

I want to take some time now to give you a picture of the situation

we are in, so that we can all understand the burden of the present.

Migration to the urban areas, throughout the developing world, is

unfolding at such a phenomenal rate that unless we tackle this as a

priority, we will be dealing with a social time bomb. Estimates

indicate that in the next 30 years Africa's population will double

from 888 million this current year, to 1,77 billion. In this same

period the urban population will increase from 353 million to

748 million inhabitants at the rate of 4% to 5% per annum. Roughly,

therefore, what this means in relation to our urban space is that

by 2035 an additional 40 million people will be added to our urban

EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                    PAGE: 7 of 98

In the absence of a supportive infrastructure and a working economy

to absorb such rapid population growth rates, the most urgent

development challenge that these projections give us is prominently

reflected in figures indicating the phenomenal growth in slums.

Thus, 72% of our African urban population presently lives in slums.

This is the stark reality that we as African Ministers, meeting in

Durban in February, were confronted with. We had to understand that

if we were to ignore this, we do so at our own peril.

When you therefore consider, in our particular case in South

Africa, the abominable conditions that our people still live in,

consider that on an annual basis 4% to 5% still stream to the urban

areas in search of a better life, and consider further the fact

that we have not yet begun to deal with the second generation of

urbanised blacks - a phenomenon epitomised by African people born

in Cape Town affirming their rights by calling themselves “Cape

borners” - then you begin to glimpse the enormity of our task.

Consider also, at that, that a great deal of the accommodation

provided by the apartheid government can clearly be identified as

slums, then you understand our concern for the eradication of

slums, which universally are an index of a government’s ability to

deal with housing needs.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                    PAGE: 8 of 98

In 2002 world leaders committed themselves to eradicating a minimum

of 100 million slum dwellers by 2020. We as African Ministers are

keen to see the world committing itself to a higher number, because

we are convinced that if we are all serious about poverty we have

to find it where it resides and breeds in our slums and surrounding

areas, and there make a difference.

We are committed to accelerating the delivery of houses to ensure

the privacy, dignity and sanctity of the individual within a space

he or she identifies as secure enough to raise a family, where women

of the age of 102 are not rendered vulnerable because they are

forced to share their spare, where young children are safe from

people who prey on the innocent and the vulnerable. For those of us

who are committed to the eradication of poverty, we are convinced

that we are on the right path and that the plan we have worked on

for ourselves will stand the test of history.

We look back on the past nine months since the adoption of the

Comprehensive Plan on Sustainable Human Settlements with a great

deal of satisfaction. We have used the time ensuring that all our

systems are aligned to the plan. To begin with, we have graduated

ourselves out of being Ministers of low-cost housing to taking on

the responsibility of the entire residential property sphere. We

have had to ensure that our administration can deal with the added

responsibilities. We have had to revisit our laws and regulations.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                    PAGE: 9 of 98

In this respect we have two amendments to two pieces of legislation

that we hope will be passed by Parliament this year. We are also

overhauling our National Housing Code to ensure that we respond to

our new reality.

We have had to revisit our earlier requirements in a bid to speed up

delivery. Firstly, recognising the difficulties experienced by lower

income earners to meet the requirements to pay in the 10% deposit of

R2 479, we have decided that those families earning less than R1 500

a month will, as from next month, be exempted from the R2 479.

[Applause.] I knew I’d get applause from the members of the

portfolio committee. They have been hammering me about this.

However, we insist that those earning above R1 500 a month should

still be required to pay the deposit. It is important that they do

so. The important principle behind this should be understood. It is

the right thing to do and it gives the person who puts in a deposit

an added advantage of complete ownership of the house.

For our part, we will work on ways in which this R2 479 can be paid

in manageable chunks. Secondly, recently we took a decision to

consolidate and validate the national waiting list. In this regard

we have decided on an audit to create confidence, protect the

integrity of the list, and streamline the system. We did this

because we wanted to allow society to be able now and again to check

on their names. We now have concluded the tender for this process

and I can announce here today that PriceWaterhouseCoopers and Nkonki
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 10 of 98

Consortium have been charged to provide a credible comprehensive

national housing list for us. This can be utilised right through the

municipal level. [Applause.]

An HON MEMBER: Is it transparent? [Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF HOUSING: Chairperson, I would ask that you protect

me from being hounded. [Interjections.] No, I will not take any

questions at this time and you know that. [Interjections.] Please

add five minutes to my time that has been wasted by the member here.

Thirdly, we have revived the Financial Services Charter by signing a

memorandum of understanding with the banks. At this point I was

reminded, when looking at the lady over there, about a joke that has

always been going on about dumb blondes. I’d never understood the

joke. Here is this joke: A dumb blonde walks into a bank, goes up to

the manager and says she would like to open a joint bank account

with someone with lots of money. That could only come from a dumb

blonde. I couldn’t understand the joke. However, not being a dumb

blonde I tried it myself. I have now opened a joint account with

people with lots of money. The four CEOs of the bank and I have

opened a joint bank account of R42 billion, which will be released

into affordable housing until 2008. [Applause.] It helps not to be a

dumb blonde.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 11 of 98

In addition, as part of our agreement with the Banking Association,

ABSA, FNB, Standard Bank and Nedcor, we are negotiating a national

home loan code of practice with appropriate sanction mechanisms. We

expect this to be finalised by the end of August 2005.

We are confident that the Memorandum of Understanding will benefit

those who receive little or no government subsidy, including nurses,

teachers and the police. The direct result of the agreement, in

other words, will be increased access to housing loans and home

ownership for those segments that were previously excluded.

We think that this is a necessary foundation in order to deal with

the huge task we have. I am very grateful to the chief executive

officers of the banks for the manner in which they have conducted

the negotiations. I found in them an understanding of our collective

responsibilities. I am also greatly encouraged by their commitment

and support for government to meet the challenge of providing houses

to all.

Fourthly, we have had to ensure that housing institutions can also

align themselves to the new plan. Here I will mention a few of these

institutions and what reconstructions we have asked of them.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                              PAGE: 12 of 98

The National Housing Finance Corporation has had to examine whether

in its present form we are achieving our goals. We believe that the

National Housing Finance Corporation can play a greater role, very

directly, to ensure access to funding for the poor. In this respect,

we have asked the National Housing Finance Corporation to look at

how institutions of similar origin in other countries have provided

greater direct support to the poor. The corporation will investigate

the possibility of gearing itself towards being a fully-fledged bank

that   will    be   concerned    with   the   provision   of    housing    loans   to

increase access to housing.

In respect of the National Urban Reconstruction Agency, we recently

reached an agreement with the Open Society Foundation, with which we

are in partnership, to enable the agency to be at the cutting edge

of the delivery of loans to emerging contractors. We expect that if

all goes according to plan, the agency will play a greater role in

ensuring success to funding for construction.

The National Homebuilders Registration Council has been charged with

the    responsibility    of     developing    new   housing    designs    that   will

provide    a   wider    choice    of    quality,    aesthetically   pleasing       and

affordable homes. In partnership with ABSA it has set up a Housing

Innovation Project in Tshwane. Advertisements will appear in the

national papers over the weekend, providing important details about
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                            PAGE: 13 of 98

the project and calling on young and enterprising constructors to

actively participate in this exciting venture.               Its purpose is to

encourage new ideas and designs to fit the subsidy bracket. However,

I would hasten to add here that no dugga bricks will be allowed as

part of the innovation project and anything else beyond that we

would accept.

We have reached the point where we can now finalise our business in

respect of Servcon, an institution to which we owe a great deal of

gratitude. Joe Slovo in 1994 had the foresight and the vision to

assist those who at the time were not able to meet their commitments

with our banks. This institution has done a great deal of work in

helping to stabilise what was once a hugely volatile market. It laid

a very good and a necessary foundation for our relationship with the

banks and I am glad that we are now back on track. The mandate of

Servcon was intended to expire next year. However, I am glad to

announce that it is now folding up its work. We have completed our

work a year ahead of our target. Subsequently, Thubelisha will be

required to serve a different purpose, bringing its expertise into

the department to create capacity at the municipal level.

Fifthly, since our last budget we have embarked on the arduous task

of   ensuring   that    all   our   institutions   are   aligned   to   the   plan.

Accordingly,    we     have   established   a   monitoring    capacity    of    the
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                        PAGE: 14 of 98

implementation of our policies. We have put in place mechanisms to

give capacity to municipalities. At a recent meeting with the South

African Local Government Association (Salga), we were horrified to

discover that in some municipalities there is not a single official

dealing with housing. Yet, this is our implementation frontier which

is expected to fast-track the hugely ambitious plan that we have. In

this respect, I am happy to announce that Treasury has given us

R50 million to create this necessary capacity within municipalities.


Sixthly,   as   part   of   efforts   to   create   greater   delivery   and

efficiency and eliminate fraud we have resolved to align our data

bases with those of the Departments of Social Development and of

Home Affairs. Seventhly, in the past year, we have been instructed

by the President to fast-track the delivery of houses and to reverse

the trend in some provinces where there had been a slow-down in

terms of delivery. We now can announce that production has picked up

incredibly. I am happy to announce that on aggregate we have spent

93% of our allocated budget for this year.

Now, for the final test on whether our aspirations are a mere pipe

dream or not, we have established a number of pilot projects. I had

the honour, last week, of doing an in loco inspection of the Gauteng

project known as Cosmo City. Poverty, slums and shacks were known to
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                                  PAGE: 15 of 98

be the key characteristics of this site and the community where the

project is situated. Last week, however, the site became a living

reality of most of the aspects we espouse in the Comprehensive Plan

on Sustainable Human Settlements. It now consists of a mixed income

settlement, with various facilities. Ultimately, it is expected to

house   70   000   people.      It   has   easy   access    to    transport,     economic

facilities and social infrastructure. In a nutshell, this is the way

in   which   we    hope   all    low-cost     housing     will    be   integrated     into

society. We have here some of the people who are responsible for

this    project.          We     thank       them.      [Applause.][Interjections.]

Chairperson, protect me from this. I would not do that in the middle

of a speech.

We can attest to the fact that human settlements can be established,

and we are doing it. In due course our achievements in Gauteng will

be replicated on the N2 Gateway Pilot Project, right here on our

doorstep. I am very glad, therefore – and I hope that the Executive

Mayor of the City of Cape Town, Ms Nomaindia Mfeketho, is here. She

and the MEC of Housing in the Western Cape, Marius Fransman, were

with us earlier in the morning. They are the main driving forces

behind the success of the project. Part of our target was to fast-

track   delivery     in   record     time.    I   think    in    the   process   we   have

discovered that we can fast-track plans. However, we cannot fast-

track the human mind. As a result, a great deal of time was spent on

trying to fast-track the mind, especially the collective human mind
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                                 PAGE: 16 of 98

that we find in the Western Cape, exemplified by some of our people

in the opposition. Despite that, I am happy that nine months later

the walls of the houses on the project are growing every day, just

like the confidence of the beneficiaries.

The most important lesson to come out of this is how the three

spheres of government can work together, which is why the project

has been a major success for us. [Applause.]

As you drive through to the airport, therefore, look to your left

and you will see a glimmer of hope – the hope that our people always

had that one day Joe Slovo will take them out of poverty into the

decent homes he envisaged as he took part in the drafting of the

Freedom Charter in 1955. Ten years after his death, we know that he

looks down on us very favourably. There is one thing we will always

wonder; is he sitting next to the Pope now?

The   unveiling   of   the        Comprehensive    Plan     on    Sustainable     Human

Settlements has indeed ushered in a new period in the development of

our urban and rural environments. The plan is our blueprint for all

housing   developments;      it    is   our   response    to     the   demands   of   the

Freedom Charter. To ensure housing, security and comfort, the plan

has called for the development of new strategies in dealing with

informal settlements, urban renewal and rural housing development.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                                PAGE: 17 of 98

Thus,   in   line      with   our    commitment   to    achieving      the    Millennium

Development Goals, we join the rest of the developing world and

reiterate our commitment to progressively eradicate slums in the 10-

year    period     ending     in    2014.   Additional       funding    amounting      to

R500 million in 2006-07 and an additional R1, 5 billion in 2007-08

has thus been allocated to step up the housing programme, so that

all informal settlements can be eliminated by 2014. [Applause.] In

order to support all these priorities, various pieces of legislation

will be introduced during this year. A consumer education programme,

developed last year, is presently being piloted in Gauteng, the

Eastern Cape, the Western Cape and KwaZulu-Natal. In co-operation

with ABSA –       for which we are very grateful               -   we are currently

finalizing a series of radio and television programmes which will

focus on access to information on housing, the responsibilities of

owning a home, rental housing, rights and responsibilities of home

owners and issues of land ownership. The radio programmes will be

broadcast onwards on a regular basis from the end of May onwards.

The plan requires immense capacity to be built at all levels of

government.       To    build      the   necessary     capacity      needed    for    the

implementation of the plan, training courses are currently being

conducted    in     all   the      provinces.   This    is   being     done    with   the

assistance of academic institutions and service providers.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                             PAGE: 18 of 98

As a result of all these commitments and others, we do expect our

total expenditure to increase rapidly between this current financial

year   and   2007-08   at   an   annual   average   increase   of   15,1%.   Since

additional    allocations        were   made   of   R50 million     for   2005-06,

R600 million for 2006-07 and R1,6 billion for 2007-08, most of the

funds will go towards implementing the Comprehensive Plan for the

Development of Sustainable Human Settlements.

None of these priorities and actions can be delivered by government

alone. It is necessary to develop partnerships with various

stakeholders so as to ensure that we create a social contract

regarding which everyone can do their bit to ensure the success of

the plan. Such is the nature of our relationship with the private

sector that we are finalising an implementation plan to ensure that

henceforth all housing developments which are not entitled to

government subsidies will allocate 20% of all development to

affordable housing. This plan is being finalised with the

participation of key players in the construction industry. A further

outcome of the social contract concerns steps that we as government

will be undertaking to ensure that regulations are streamlined and

made flexible in respect of the rezoning of land for low-cost


We have thus used this period to sell the idea of the plan,

consulting with various stakeholders to ensure that we create a
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 19 of 98

social contract in which they can all play their part to ensure the

success of the plan. We are hopeful that by September 2005 we will

be able to publish a comprehensive social contract. We have had very

fruitful discussions with the various sectors of the industry. We

have been very keen to explain to them that this is, in fact, a

joint responsibility. [Interjections.]

We have also had discussions with the mining sector so as to co-

ordinate our efforts in ensuring that their social responsibility

towards their workers is kept. We hope to have discussions with the

building material suppliers to negotiate a stable climate in this

turbulent region.

We are hoping that by June we can meet with NGOs to seek their co-

operation. I hope that we can also attract the retail sector into

our fold. If we can convince employers we will stand at an

advantageous position in our fight against poverty. The President

has a more poetic description of this positive outcome when he says:

  We are not being arrogant or complacent when we assert that our

  country, as a united nation, has never in its entire history

  enjoyed such a confluence of encouraging possibilities.

Together then let us take the tide at its height – I am talking to

the ANC here and the people out there who are open to pushing back

the frontiers of poverty. [Applause.] We have the wind behind us and
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 20 of 98

the gods are willing us. The prospects have never been better.

Africa wishes us success, from which it draws inspiration. Even the

Democratic Alliance understands that we are headed for success and

that the noise they are making will simply ensure that they do not

sink into oblivion too quickly. Our success means a better life for

the vast majority of our people. History is on our side! I thank

you. [Applause.]

Ms Z A KOTA: Chairperson, hon Minister Dr Lindiwe Sisulu, hon

Minister Charles Nqakula, comrades, colleagues, honoured guests,

acting Director-General Mr Ahmedi Vawda, Deputy Director-General Mr

Dlabantu and members of the department, I feel humbled to get this

opportunity to address this august House on this important Vote as

we enter the second decade of freedom.

Allow me to congratulate the hon Ms Mildred Ramakaba-Lesiea on

receiving the Order of Chief Albert Luthuli on 26 April 2005.

[Applause.] This veteran of our movement was honoured together with

other veterans, namely Christmas Tinto, Eddie Daniels, the late

Dullah Omar, former Minister of Transport, and the late Mama Dorothy


We are proud to have you, Ms Ramakaba-Lesiea, as a member of our

portfolio committee. You continue to bring value and experience to

this committee, and that is the reason the ANC Women’s League in the

Western Cape province saw it fit to celebrate this order with you on
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 21 of 98

6 May 2005. We saw this as a celebration of our women’s role in the

struggle, and of you, Ms Ramakaba-Lesiea, as an icon and pioneer of

that struggle.

We are holding this Budget Vote debate in the year in which we

celebrate 50 years of the Freedom Charter. This celebration gives us

an opportunity to renew our commitment to the realisation of its

objectives, as well as to the important goals of national unity and


One of the clauses of this historic document states, and I quote:

“There shall be houses, security and comfort.” This charter has a

vision of a society in which all people have a right to live where

they choose, to be decently housed, to rear their families in

comfort and security, to have accessible quality health care and to

have free, compulsory, universal and equal education.

The gathering in Kliptown in 1955 of fellow South Africans from all

walks of life and from different backgrounds placed a responsibility

on future generations to realise their dream of a better life for

all. We dip our revolutionary banner to those who have lost their

lives and limbs in an effort to make this dream a reality.

In the first decade of freedom there has been the visible delivery

of houses, electricity, water and sanitation, to mention just a few.

Yet, given the scale and depth of deprivation and underdevelopment,
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 22 of 98

so much more still needs to be done before we can say that we have

indeed realised the vision of the Freedom Charter.

Allow me at this point to congratulate the former Minister of

Housing, Comrade Sankie Mthembi-Mahanyele, on the doctorate she

received from the University of the Free State. This is

acknowledgement of the work done by the ANC-led government in

housing delivery in the first decade of freedom. [Applause.]

Hon MEMBERS: Malibongwe! [Let it be praised!]

Ms Z A KOTA: Igama lamakhosikazi! [The name of women!]

This Budget Vote offers us a window of opportunity to examine our

collective action in bringing about a better life for millions of

the poorest of the poor. We will continue to improve the plight of

the people by implementing the “Breaking New Ground” plan of the

Department of Housing propagated by the Minister, Dr Lindiwe Sisulu.

This plan itself is about bringing back the dignity of our people by

building houses of good quality.

It further states that the provision of social amenities, clinics,

parks for children, roads and economic development must be at the

centre of every development. This bears testimony to the fact that

the ANC government cares for the most vulnerable in our society.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 23 of 98

This mammoth task cannot be done by government alone. Our delivery

programme on housing will always be measured by the collective

efforts we make in pushing back the frontiers of poverty and

expanding access to a better life for all. It is in this context

that we call upon all peace-loving South Africans to join hands and

build a people’s contract for a better future so that we can

consolidate the gains of the first decade of freedom.

We welcome the move by financial institutions, the contribution of

R42 billion by three major banks, as a step in the right direction.

We call upon all sectors and communities to participate in the

spirit of Vukuzenzele and Letsema. When we work together we will

accelerate delivery of housing and we will also build houses of a

better quality for our people.

We urge our people to refrain from selling RDP houses, the only

asset given to them by this government. We must continue to build on

our experiences of the past in order to intensify the housing

programme, and this should happen in all provinces.

In line with ANC policies we have identified the eradication of

poverty and underdevelopment as key priorities, along with the

creation of job opportunities for all, especially in the

historically marginalised sections of our society. Our challenge,

therefore, is to deal with the soaring numbers of people coming to

our cities in search of a better life and employment opportunities.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 24 of 98

Some of these people end up living in squalid conditions and in

areas where land is not suitable for housing. The challenge is to

provide them with decent houses and to ensure that they have access

to basic services such as water, electricity and sanitation. The

scarcity of resources delays us from doing this.

In addressing the challenges I’ve mentioned above, one should not

lose sight of the importance of urban and rural nodes identified in

terms of our Urban Renewal Programme and the Rural Integrated

Housing Programme, whose objective is to achieve sustainable growth,

with equity, while at the same time addressing the slowdown in

housing delivery, the broader question of spatial settlement and

their implications in the building of a nonracial society.

Central to the issues raised is the issue of governance, which

includes the harmonisation of municipal integrated plans and the

refining of systems of monitoring and evaluation.

It is in this light that the Portfolio Committee on Housing took a

decision at its strategic planning session in Gordon’s Bay to hold a

conference on 19 and 20 April 2005 on the challenges of fire and

floods in human settlements in South Africa. This conference was

attended by academics, the Departments of Housing and of Provincial

and Local Government, the NGO sector and representatives from the

affected communities. It became clear to the committee that fire and
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 25 of 98

floods remain a continual challenge, especially the extent of

devastation caused by these disasters.

Areas such as Joe Slovo, Orange Farm, Diepsloot, Khayamandi and

Alexandra are ravaged by fires repeatedly. The Eastern Cape,

KwaZulu-Natal and Limpopo are severely affected by floods. The

Western Cape is affected by heavy rains that lead to floods, as

happened in the Overberg area.

The trail of destruction caused by runaway fires in informal

settlements can be a frightening experience and, sadly, every fire

that has swept through informal settlements in South Africa could

have been avoided.

We’ve also noted that young children are most vulnerable to the

seemingly unstoppable outbreaks of fire. Our government does have

the Disaster Management Act, but the challenge lies in its

implementation. It remains a policy that does not cascade down to

the lower levels.

The hands-on approach of municipalities with regard to disaster

management is critical. We can’t continue to chase fires and floods,

particularly with regard to the areas prone to these. More money

should be spent on education and training of communities so that

they are equipped to prevent disasters as well as handle them

promptly when they do occur.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 26 of 98

All municipalities must identify their incident-prone areas and

budget for disasters accordingly. Disaster management must be at the

centre of the Integrated Development Plan. I’m glad to report that

Mr Greg Pillay, Disaster Manager of the City of Cape Town, who also

attended the conference, has already embarked on a programme to

involve all subcouncils in disaster management, with the main thrust

on prevention. He went further to include the issue of health.

Keeping our areas clean may prevent floods, as litter leads to drain

blockage, which then leads to floods, particularly in informal


What also became clear is that poor communities, especially those in

informal settlements, use energy sources that are often harmful to

their health and detrimental to their environment, for instance

paraffin. The government was asked to intervene regarding the issue

of paraffin usage, and paraffin should be banned. We will take this

up with the Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy.

Iparafini iyingozi. Igalelwa ezimbodleleni, ze abantwana bayisele

becinga ukuba sisiselo. Ezinye izitovu zeparafini azikho

mgangathweni. Bakhona abantu ababebonisa ngezitovu zokupheka

ezikhuselekileyo kule nkomfa ndiyikhankanyileyo. (Translation of

isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                    PAGE: 27 of 98

[Paraffin is dangerous. It is kept in soft drink bottles and

children drink it thinking that it is cold drink. Some stoves using

paraffin are not up to standard. There were people who came to

market their paraffin stoves at the above-mentioned conference.]

The conference’s declaration has been submitted to Parliament. We

urge all provinces to hold similar conferences. Allow me at this

juncture to thank all participants.

Ndifuna ukubulela bonke abantu abathi baya kule nkomfa

ndiyikhankanyileyo, nebiyinkomfa yokuqala kwiikomiti zePalamente.

Ndithi: Maz’enethole! Ukwanda kwaliwa ngumthakathi.

[I want to thank all those who were present at the conference

mentioned,   which was the first conference for committees in

Parliament. I say: thank you! We are grateful.]

Allow me to thank the ANC Chief Whip’s Office for giving us

permission to have this conference during the constituency period.

The conference has enriched our oversight and monitoring role.

I want to thank the Deputy Speaker, who received the conference

declaration on behalf of the Speaker. A vote of thanks also goes to

the Deputy Minister of Minerals and Energy, Lulu Xingwana, for the

contribution she made; the Mayor of Cape Town, NomaIndia Mfeketo;

the office of MEC Marius Fransman; G Schultz from the weather

service; Deputy Director-General Mr Dlabantu from the Department of
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 28 of 98

Housing; Ellen from the Ministry of Housing; Louis Buys from DPLG;

Greg Pillay from the City of Cape Town; Statistics SA; General Pali

Lehlotla; Kim Yates from the CSIR; Brian Moholo from Social Housing

Foundation, and the NHFC.

I want to extend a vote of thanks to facilitator, Manye Moroka from

Servcon; Nazeema Ahmed from the Paraffin Association; Xoliswa Sibeko

from DPLG; and Anne Thebe, Regional Manager of Social Services.

We want to thank those who gave insight from the horse’s mouth, such

as Xolile Gophe from Joe Slovo, Overberg Councillor Mentile and

Ronald Stevens.

Let me come back, once more, to this Budget Vote. [Interjections.]

Get away! [Laughter.] We are still waiting for provinces to come up

with their pilot projects, in terms of the comprehensive plan. I do

welcome development in the Cosmo City.

We have also taken note of the fact that housing delivery seems to

be moving at a greater speed in all provinces, with a few

exceptions. MECs have committed themselves to fast-tracking delivery

during their Budget Vote debates. As a portfolio committee we will

monitor closely the implementation of these undertakings.

We have noted with concern the absence of MECs during public

hearings. We have received an apology from MEC Nomvula Mokonyane,
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                     PAGE: 29 of 98

who was hospitalised at the time. I do urge MECs to refrain from

sending officials to present their case. They should know that they

are accountable to Parliament, and in future we won’t allow that.

This also applies to executive mayors. If you are not able to make

it, give us another date. It is critical that we align our work so

that we can move together in delivering to our people.

We do welcome the progress on the N2 Gateway. We do understand that

this is a national project driven by the M3, namely the Minister,

the MEC and the executive mayor. Delivery of housing from this

project will have a multiplying effect. It will also lead to

economic growth. The second economy stands to benefit from job

creation; access to basic services such as electricity; water and

sanitation; parks for children; the strengthening of emerging

contractors; and growth in the local economy.

Most importantly, this project will build communities. Communities

from Joe Slovo, Barcelona, District Six, New Rest and Kanana up to

Borcherd’s Quarry stand to benefit from this project. People from

backyards will also be accommodated.

However, I have a great concern as to whether the ideals I’ve

mentioned will be realised if community involvement in this project

is not visible. [Interjections.] Get away!
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                    PAGE: 30 of 98

At the present time communication regarding this project is not

adequate. As a result there are lots of newspaper articles on the N2

Gateway, including the article in the Mail & Guardian of 6 May,

which painted a bad picture of this project. We welcome the response

by the spokesperson of the Minister, Mr Thabang Shiloane, which we


I urge the department to address urgently the issue of community

participation, so that people who want to participate in the

development process can get information in good time through their

community reps in project management. As things stand, project

management is run on a technical basis, which is not good enough.

This leads to opportunism on the part of those who purport to speak

on behalf of communities . . .   beziingcuka ezambethe ufele lwegusha

[. . . whereas they are wolves in a sheep’s skin]. [Interjections.]

I do welcome the information centre that is about to be opened in

Langa. However, the issue of community involvement needs to be

addressed as a matter of urgency so that communities can grab these

opportunities with both hands.

Let me share with this House the news regarding the visit I made to

the George municipality, the only municipality in South Africa led

by the DA. The DA purports to have policies that could assist

government to allocate houses to our people. The first question I
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 31 of 98

asked when I came to this municipality was whether they do have a

waiting list. The answer was: “No”.

Then I asked how they allocate houses to people. They said that they

allocate houses in accordance with a points system, which means that

they allocate houses on the basis of who first came to stay in


This is a bizarre system. In Borcherd’s Quarry 70 people were not

allocated houses because, according to this criteria, they were not

eligible. Only DA people were given houses. [Interjections.] It is

obvious that this is a cheap political-points-scoring system that is

a quick-fix solution based on populism and opportunism. It does not

assist the process.

As if that was not enough, the DA municipality spent millions of

rands on consultancy, including consulting on filling in subsidy

forms. Consultants are given forms to fill in at R150 per form. Yet

there is a housing department in George, which could perform this

job at no cost to the government.

The DA municipality has not built a single house during its tenure.

They blame the province for the delays in approving environmental

impact assessments. This is a feeble approach; the truth is that the

DA says that housing is not a funded mandate – that is what people

are saying – which means that they do not have housing sector plans
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                     PAGE: 32 of 98

in their IDPs. Instead they sit there and complain all the time.


When we visited projects we found that houses built by Power

Construction are about to collapse and have cracked. However, the

municipality has informed the contractor and the matter has not been

taken up. [Interjections.]

Some houses built by Asla are also not of good quality. For example,

some houses are built on flood-prone areas. [Interjections.] My

other concern, Minister, is that these contractors are also involved

in the N2 Gateway. So it’s critical for the department to look into

this issue.

I thank all those who are committed to working with the ANC-led

government in improving the plight of the poorest of the poor. The

ANC supports this Budget Vote. [Applause.]

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr N P Nhleko): Hon members, order please. I have

heard that heckling and interjecting are part of parliamentary life,

but I think we should be careful that we do not interfere with the

flow of the speech by the person at the podium. That’s one thing.

Also, the broader question we need to ask ourselves is: Whose

culture is this? Who are we emulating, culturally? The people that
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 33 of 98

we represent actually do not heckle; they do not do all these sorts

of things that we tend to do here. [Interjection.]

So I wanted to address that question, that we should start thinking

about this issue.

Mr A C STEYN: Thank you, Chairperson, and I also had to adapt my

speech, so if I refer to you as Madam Speaker, please forgive me!

Hon Ministers of Housing and of Safety and Security, hon members and

distinguished guests, last year I raised some concerns regarding

what I termed the modest 6% increase over the previous year’s budget

to R4, 85 billion. One of my concerns related to the fact that once

inflation was factored in, and coupled with the increased subsidy

amounts of which the DA was a proponent, there was no real increase

in the actual amount of money budgeted for. Needless to say, this

concern was expressed with the misplaced but optimistic view that

provincial housing departments and municipalities across the country

responsible for the actual implementation of housing delivery would

be in a position to utilise the budget efficiently and effectively.

In his Budget Speech earlier this year the Minister of Finance

indicated that the budget for Housing had been increased by more

than R2, 5 billion over the MTEF period, that is the three-year

period starting this financial year, from R4, 83 billion last year

to R7, 37 billion in the 2007-08 financial year. It is my sincere
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 34 of 98

hope that Minister Manuel has gazed into his crystal ball and knows

something that neither I nor Minister Sisulu are aware of.

I say this with the greatest respect, because it would appear that

the lack of capacity so evident in the past, and readily used as an

excuse by all and sundry responsible for the actual delivery of

housing, has yet to be addressed in a significant and meaningful

way. Unfortunately for the millions of homeless people, particularly

those on the waiting lists, the larger increases take place

primarily in the latter two years, as I shall point out.

The actual increase in the current Housing budget we are debating

today is 7,6% over the previous year, with 16,6% and 21,7% following

in the other years. Clearly, the “massive” increases, so much spoken

about immediately after the Budget Speech in February, are to

follow, and they are subject to change before they are tabled in

this House by the Minister of Finance.

As I have said before, perhaps Minister Manuel has a crystal ball

and he has good reasons why the bigger increases may only follow

after this financial year. However, I doubt that Minister Manuel can

see into the future. It is more likely that he does what the

opposition does, and that is to look at the provincial departments’

capacity to deliver and past expenditure, given the relatively

healthy budgets of recent years.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 35 of 98

I say this because, although the budgeted amounts have steadily

increased over the past years, the number of houses delivered has

declined. The following information was obtained from the Department

of Housing’s website last Friday. In 2002-03 the number of houses

completed or under construction were 203 588. The following year,

2003-04, the budget increased by 11% and the number of houses

completed declined by 5% to 193 615.

Last year the budget increased by 6%, and the Minister has indicated

that 93% of the budget has been spent, and the number of houses

completed or under construction, according to the department’s

website, is only 129 552 – a decrease of 33% compared to the

previous year! [Interjections.] To give some perspective to this, in

the 2000-01 financial year the budget was R3,7 billion, yet the

number of houses delivered totalled 190 643 – 61 000 more houses

than last year, with R1,1 billion less!

There are some salient points in the budget that I would like to

highlight very quickly. With regard to Programme 1 – Administration,

the Minister’s programme, it is costing more and more to provide

strategic leadership, which is what this programme is responsible

for. There is a sensible 7% increase in the current expenditure in

this programme, but this should be viewed against the base of last

year’s 67% increase. It would also appear that this leadership is

being provided more and more by consultants, as this line item has

the largest increase of 68%.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 36 of 98

I now come to Programme 3 – Programme Management. Although the

overall programme expenditure decreases by 33% against this year’s

budget, this is certainly not due to stabilisation of the current

expenditure. Like last year, there are massive increases in the

current expenditure for consultants, at 168%; goods and services, a

bloated 456% increase; and a 160% increase for compensation of


This programme is and has been responsible for managing the housing

and human settlement programmes, and must also provide support and

guidance to help build capacity in municipalities and provinces. I

have alluded earlier to the decline in delivery, despite the

increased budgets. It therefore makes one wonder exactly what type

of support and guidance are being provided to municipalities and

provinces. Perhaps the housing courses provided to over 2 000

participants through this programme last year need to be reviewed.

Then I also come to Programme 4 – Housing Sector Performance. With a

32% increase over last year, this subprogramme has the largest

increase in the budget. The committee recently hosted public

hearings in which housing agencies and municipalities alike referred

again and again to what they called blocked projects. The department

has also informed the committee that an audit has been initiated to

determine the location and reasons for these blocked projects, many

of which were started in the late 1990s.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 37 of 98

Strangely though, this subprogramme is responsible for monitoring

the performance of housing delivery and for assessing the impact

thereof. The lack of knowledge regarding these blocked projects

referred to would therefore suggest not only an inefficient use of

resources, but also an unacceptable waste of resources.

It was reported yesterday that the Nelson Mandela Metropolitan

Council is now looking at the completion of 820 houses from a

project started in 1998 in response to the protests from the

community. In addition, there is also a national audit under way to

establish the quality - or perhaps I should say the lack of quality!

- of houses already built that are falling apart.

How many more millions will have to be spent on repairs, when the

money and effort could have been spent on building more houses

rather than revisiting resources on houses already built?

This leaves us with the question: Why are increased budget

allocations spent and yet the outputs produced decrease? Dare I

suggest that we are spending more and more on consultants, advisors

and even personal advisors than on the actual delivery of services?

Could this possibly be, notwithstanding what the Minister said last

year, “that there isn’t even a whiff of it in the air”, why

communities all over the country vent their frustrations and anger
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                    PAGE: 38 of 98

with violent protests and sit-ins? Could this possibly be why the

streets in Port Elizabeth are burning today?

The DA takes the mandate to exercise oversight over the executive

seriously, not just in the case of ANC-ruled municipalities, but the

entire executive. This is the reason why we regularly critique both

policy and implementation by government. We don’t’ claim to have all

the answers, but we do claim to have some. We may not have all the

correct answers, but we do have some, as history has proven.

If there were nothing wrong with the delivery of services, why the

protests, often accompanied by violence from communities across the

country? If there were nothing wrong with the delivery of services

by government, why the sudden establishment of all these task teams

and committees from the highest levels of government to look at

delivery, not so as to make delivery more efficient, but merely in

order to ensure that some delivery actually takes place. This action

by government, surely, is an indictment on government and a

vindication of our criticism. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr B W DHLAMINI: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and colleagues, the

provision of access to basic services to the majority of South

Africans who previously did not have such access has been a

significant achievement.   Given the successes and challenges that we

have experienced over the past ten years, the Department of Housing

has critically analysed its position regarding its mandate and is
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                    PAGE: 39 of 98

now seeking innovative ways in order to deal with new challenges

while at the same time consolidating the past achievements.

In terms of the Housing Policy and Strategy of the 1994 era, the

main focus was on stabilising the housing environment and

transforming the extremely fragmented, complex and racially based

financial and institutional framework inherited from the previous

government.   It also focused on the establishment of new systems

aimed at addressing the housing backlog.

Whilst the IFP believes that the fundamentals of the policy remain

relevant and sound, a new plan is required to redirect and enhance

existing mechanisms to move towards a more responsive and effective


The IFP therefore welcomes and supports the adoption and approval on

1 September 2004 of the Human Settlement Plan, which aims to break

the new ground in the delivery of housing. The plan provides a

framework for the integration and building of homes in healthy and

secure living environments, where everyone will have access to the

services and goods produced by society. It provides for the

provision of a total package of infrastructure such as clinics,

schools, police stations, and community facilities within the

vicinity of a newly developed human settlement. Furthermore, the

plan collapses the subsidy system and creates a three-tier category

of income groups for better targeting. Through this comprehensive
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                     PAGE: 40 of 98

plan, the reach of the housing policy is broadened to cover the

entire residential property market.

One of the main focuses of the housing strategy is to formalise all

informal settlements capable of being formalised, densify existing

locations, redevelop all hostels in seeking and providing

alternative accommodation and to regenerate urban areas through

integrated development strategies.

During this term, the government is committed and intends to build a

sustainable housing and human settlement process that will achieve

housing with sure tenure, with a safe and healthy environment, and

the development of viable communities for all people.   We have to

deal with the challenge of how best to optimise the use of space

available to the urban poor and unemployed in targeted areas,

enabling our beneficiaries to find alternative local economic

development paths that are collectively determined by them.

In developing and implementing its plans, we are happy that the

department recognises that the emphasis on housing delivery has

shifted from the issue of numbers to the enhancement of quality of

both our products and the lives of the people we serve. This is

important, since we recognise that the eradication of poverty is not

only complex, but also needs various interventions in order to

improve the lives of the poor beyond the physical structures that we

build and to avoid creating poverty traps.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                    PAGE: 41 of 98

Our programme on housing delivery should be designed to meet the

goals of economic growth, job creation and poverty alleviation.       In

the main township communities there are concentrations of extreme

and absolute poverty.

The department should forge ahead and facilitate ongoing

partnerships with various stakeholders so that they begin to play

their respective roles in the delivery of housing.   Indeed the most

vulnerable within our society, in particular women, older persons,

people with disabilities and people infected with and affected by

HIV/Aids should continue to be the main beneficiaries of our housing

subsidy grant.   These vulnerable sections of our populace should,

more than ever before, see that the government is indeed taking bold

steps to allow them to become masters of their own destinies.

The IFP welcomes the establishment of the Affordable Rental

Accommodation (ARA) unit in the Gauteng Department of Housing,

formerly known as hostels, to deal with the transformation and

redevelopment of hostels from single-gender, dormitory-type

accommodation to affordable rental accommodation.    The affordable

rental accommodation will offer residents the following range of

options in terms of tenure: there will be a choice between rental

and ownership and in terms of unit types the choice will be between

single, communal or family units - all self-contained units.     It
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                    PAGE: 42 of 98

also seeks to address emergency situations by the roll-out of

interventions that provide short-term relief.

The provincial government also committed itself to the conversion of

all hostels by 2008.   The completion of the conversion of former

single-gender and dormitory–type hostels into single, communal or

family units will eventually be placed into an effective property

management solution.

Implementations of the projects are currently fast-tracked down

through partnerships with the social housing institutions.    This is

in acknowledgement of the slow pace of delivery to hostel

redevelopment.   The department established strategic and political

structures within the relevant various tiers of government in

partnership with community structures that are necessary to ensure

that relevant issues raised are addressed immediately without

compromising progress on the operations.   This is in line with what

the IFP proposed in the last year’s Budget Vote and we are grateful

that we were taken on board. The IFP supports the Budget Vote.

Mr G D SCHNEEMANN: Chairperson, Minister Sisulu, comrades and hon

members, the Housing budget for 2005-06, which we are discussing

today, takes place in a year in which we celebrate the 50th

anniversary of the Freedom Charter and commemorate the passing away

of the first Minister of Housing, Comrade Joe Slovo, 10 years ago.

Whilst we remember the role Comrade Slovo played in the bringing
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 43 of 98

about of a democratic and free South Africa, we also acknowledge

that Comrade Slovo laid the foundation upon which our housing

programme has been built.

Fifty years ago the Freedom Charter was adopted at the Congress of

the People in Kliptown on 26 June 1955. The housing programme of

government over the past 11 years has ensured that the clause which

says that: “there shall be houses, security and comfort”, has become

a reality for millions of our people.

According to the State of the World’s Cities Report for 2004-05,

almost 60% of the world’s population will live in cities by the year

2030. This does not only place a burden on our major cities in South

Africa, but also requires that the Integrated Sustainable Rural

Development Programme be successfully implemented. The successful

economic development of rural areas will decrease the need for the

migration of people to city centres and could possibly encourage

reverse migration back to rural areas.

The budget before us today is also the first budget since the

Breaking New Ground strategy was announced by Minister Sisulu last

year. This budget gives meaning and life to the ANC’s 2004 election

manifesto wherein the ANC committed itself to building more

subsidised housing and introduced medium-density housing closer to

places of work.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 44 of 98

An example of this is the Brickfields housing project in Newtown,

Johannesburg, which will provide 1 050 much-needed rental

accommodation units close to places of work within the city centre.

This is, in fact, the first residential development within the city

of Johannesburg since the famous Ponte development almost 30 years


The Housing budget also provides the necessary resources to advance

and implement the commitments relating to the housing programme,

which President Mbeki made in the state of the nation address to

Parliament on 21 May last year. This budget ushers in a new phase of

housing delivery. Not only are there increased allocations in the

Housing budget over the MTEF, but also increases in the different

housing subsidy bands. [Interjections.]

The new subsidy of R31 900 for those who earn between R0 and R1 500

stood at just R16 000 in 2002, Mr Steyn. These substantial increases

indicate a clear commitment of government to providing a housing

product that is of sound quality, providing security and comfort.

When it was announced that the housing subsidy would be increased on

an annual basis, it was clearly indicated that this was meant to

cater for inflationary increases and to ensure a better quality

product. The department needs to monitor the increase in building

material costs to determine whether the annual subsidy increase is

achieving the desired improvement in the quality of construction, or
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                      PAGE: 45 of 98

whether the increase is offsetting increases in building materials.

This would be particularly important as we move towards the 2010

Soccer World Cup, where an increase in demand for building materials

could cause an increase in material prices.

During the budget hearings conducted by the Portfolio Committee on

Housing, the National Home Builders Registration Council, the NHBRC,

showcased a draft computer programme, which showed different designs

of houses together with determined material quantities and costs.

They indicated, as the Minister has alluded to today, that this was

to be presented to her with recommendations that there be a set

number of house designs that should be used in the housing delivery

programme. They also indicated that the designs shown in their

programme could be built within the existing housing subsidy. Such a

programme would be welcomed, as this would ensure a national

standard in terms of construction, design and size. We look forward

to the speedy implementation of this plan.

With the announced increase in the housing subsidy, those

contractors who are involved in the building of government-

subsidised homes have no excuse whatsoever to build poor quality

houses. In this regard, both the department and the NHBRC must

ensure that each subsidised home is inspected before it is accepted

from the contractor. Contractors who build poor quality homes should

not be paid in full for their work until they have provided a house
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 46 of 98

that is of the quality required, as stipulated in the housing code.


During the budget hearings the various housing support institutions

appeared before the committee. In particular, the Rural Housing Loan

Fund and the National Urban Reconstruction and Housing Agency both

indicated that they would be seeking funding from the department. Of

concern to the committee was that such allocations were not included

in the MTEF allocations. We were, however, made aware that the

mandates of the various housing institutions were being reviewed

and, where applicable, realigned with the new housing plan. We trust

that this will include the long-term financial sustainability of

these institutions.

A large percentage of the department’s expenditure is made up of

conditional grant allocations to the provinces. Provision has been

made in the budget for the department to monitor and evaluate the

performance of the provinces and local government in relation to

expenditure patterns and actual housing units delivered. The

department needs to ensure that it has the capacity and systems in

place to perform the functions of monitoring and evaluation.

Funds have also been allocated for capacity-building initiatives,

which include a programme to accredit municipalities to administer

national housing programmes, and to assist them in developing the
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 47 of 98

housing chapters of their integrated municipal housing development


The department also needs to investigate and establish whether there

is any unnecessary red tape that may negatively impact on the

housing delivery programme. In addition, the department also needs

to identify the reasons for roll-overs, which are reported at times,

and introduce measure to ensure that roll-overs are reduced and,

where possible, eliminated. These will assist in ensuring that

maximum housing delivery takes place through effective and efficient


The recent agreement reached between government and the banking

fraternity, whereby an amount of R42 billion will be made available

by banks for home loans to those who earn between R1 500 and R7 500

per month, is welcomed. This will ensure that a high number of South

Africans will now have the opportunity to enter the property market

and gain ownership of their own home.

This development demonstrates the ANC government’s commitment to

ensuring that “the people shall share in the country’s wealth”.

[Applause.] It will be important for the banks not only to provide

loans, but also to provide the necessary information and guidance to

the prospective homeowners regarding the value which their new home

provides, as well as the additional financial implications for which

they will be responsible when they take ownership.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 48 of 98

The Breaking New Ground in housing delivery strategy focuses on the

creation of sustainable human settlements with the emphasis on

quality construction, the provision of rental accommodation and the

upgrading of informal settlements. The establishment of new human

settlements focuses on the integration of communities and the

provision of the necessary infrastructure such as roads, schools,

clinics and police stations.

The Cosmo City development in Johannesburg will, for the first time,

see a housing development that reflects different types of housing,

such as government-subsidised low-cost housing, rental housing,

bank-financed housing and credit-linked housing. The response from

homebuyers for bank-financed housing at Cosmo City was overwhelming.

South Africans from all walks of life have chosen to live within the

same community and within a development which includes government-

subsidised low-cost housing. The Cosmo City development gives

meaning to the creation of a nonracial and united society.

One of the main challenges of building human settlements with the

required infrastructure will be the need for interdepartmental co-

operation and forward planning, together with the aligning of

departmental budgets. The Housing department will have an important

part to play in ensuring not only that human settlements are planned

and budgeted for over the MTEF periods by themselves, but that

departments such as those of Education, of Health, of Safety and
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 49 of 98

Security and of Transport are drawn in at the planning stage so that

new human settlements are budgeted for jointly.

A challenge facing the Cosmo City development is that, as a result

of the protracted court cases and objections from landowners, the

departments have not budgeted for infrastructure such as schools and

clinics due to the uncertainty of when the development would

proceed. In this regard, we ask the Minister to look into this to

see what interventions could be made. Equally important is that all

government-subsidised low-cost housing units built in these new

human settlements should comply with the required design and size.

Again, I would emphasise the importance of our using the programme

of the NHBRC to ensure that all of those requirements are adhered


This would help to ensure that basic aspects such as a shower or

bath are included in the housing units. These seem to be missing in

the show houses at Cosmo City but, hopefully, this will be


The expenditure of conditional grants for housing must be used in a

manner that will provide employment opportunities to local

communities and skills training that will enable community members

to remain economically active after the completion of housing

developments in a given locality.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 50 of 98

During the visits of the portfolio committee to various provinces, a

challenge that was raised has been the impact that delayed or slow

payments have on emerging contractors. We would urge those

responsible for disbursing funds to ensure that such delays are


I had the opportunity to visit the stands of the various estate

agents who were mandated to manage the selling of bank-financed

housing units at Cosmo City. Whilst it was encouraging to note that

some of the estate agents were black-owned, the role of the national

Department of Housing, in relation to the Estate Agents Board, needs

to be determined.

Currently, as far as I understand, the Estate Agents Board falls

under the jurisdiction of the Department of Trade and Industry. I

therefore pose the question whether it would not be appropriate for

the Minister of Housing to be the Minister of all housing-related

issues, rather than just the Minister of subsidised housing. The

committee is of the view that housing-related issues would best be

placed under the jurisdiction of the Department of Housing.

Over the past few years we have seen an increase in the number of

golf course estate developments and other exclusive estate

developments. These are targeted towards higher income earners.

Lower income earners are therefore excluded from entering into these

exclusive property markets, which usually occupy prime land.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                    PAGE: 51 of 98

Whilst one accepts the right of individuals to live in the type of

housing environments they choose, isn’t it time for the

inaccessibility to these development by lower income earners to be

reviewed? Perhaps we should be looking at what other countries are

doing in this regard and how an element of social or subsidised

housing could be included in each development. The housing policy of

our government, together with the budget allocations for this year

and the outer years in the MTEF, will ensure that the lives of all

South Africans are improved, and will ensure that we remain on track

to meet the Millennium Development Goals.

In conclusion, I just want to say that it’s certainly a pity that

the hon Mr Steyn did not use the opportunity in this Budget Vote to

perhaps enlighten us as to what the DA’s policy on housing is.

Obviously, they don’t have a policy because he had absolutely

nothing to say and, obviously, they have no answers.

[Interjections.] The input that the hon Mr Steyn gave to us today in

this debate is the same as the input he gives in the portfolio

committee - no meaning, no base whatsoever. We, in the ANC, will

support this Budget Vote. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Ms S N (Sylvia N SIGCAU: Chairperson, hon Ministers, distinguished

guests and hon members, housing remains a very emotional issue in

South Africa, because millions of people continue to live under

inadequate circumstances. Few things illustrate our history as
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 52 of 98

clearly as the informal settlements around the large city centres.

The effects of urbanisation have made matters worse, and the result

is that, 11 years into democracy, you can see the social and

economic scars of the Groups Areas Act still reflected in the

landscapes of our cities and towns.

Whilst national government has made huge commitments, the

implementation at provincial and local governments levels has been

fraught with problems. These problems relate especially to the

quality of construction, inadequate management and corruption. Only

yesterday there were violent protests in the Nelson Mandela

Metropole, due to a four-year long delay in dealing with flood

damage to Reconstruction and Development Project houses.

Accusations abound of local government mismanaging the allocation of

housing and housing contracts. Housing lists are riddled with

inconsistencies and regularly result in people waiting for years on

the lists, only to see new arrivals in an area receiving housing

before them.

We note that the department is setting aside funding and resources

in order to increase municipal capacity. What is urgently required

is a comprehensive audit of all housing lists and their

consolidation into one trustworthy system. The provision of housing

should then be underpinned by a tamper-proof database of needs and

beneficiaries that cannot be corrupted at municipal level. The
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 53 of 98

unfortunate reality at present is that billions of rands are flowing

into large municipalities, while the unscrupulous find various means

of cashing in.

Only when the current chaotic management of housing at municipal

level has been addressed will the department’s decision not to

pursue quantity at the expense of quality be viable. The intended

accreditation of municipalities to administer national housing

programmes must not continue without checks and balances to avoid

abuse. Of necessity, this will also mean that the department and

this House must enhance the oversight of housing delivery in


However, Budget Vote 28 is fully supported by the UDM. Thank you,

Chairperson. [Applause.]

Ms M M RAMAKABA-LESIEA: Chairperson, Ministers, hon members and

guests, allow me to thank the President and the ANC Cabinet for

selecting me as one of the heroines in this country and honouring me

with the Order of Chief Albert Luthuli, which honours all those that

I fought with in the struggle. [Applause.] Some are not with us any

more, such as comrade Vusile Mini, Helen Joseph and Looksmart

Solwandle, whose remains are still somewhere in Gauteng.

On 26 June 1955, the Congress of the People met in Kliptown to

declare to the world that “there shall be houses, security and
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 54 of 98

comfort”, which translates that all people shall have the right to

live where they choose to be decently housed, and to bring up their

families in comfort and security. We were right, in 1955, when we

said that slums shall be demolished and new suburbs built where all

have transport, roads, light, playing fields, crèches and social


In the dispensation of democracy, as the ANC-led government, we have

made strides in abolishing laws that are retarding the process of

the empowerment of women in all respects. Each one of us has a role

to play in the fight to achieve a better life for all. In doing so,

we are guided by the Batho Pele principles. The RDP is clear on

democratic issues and further argues that democracy is more than

electing representatives to power once every five years. It means

enabling people, especially women, to participate in decision-making

at all levels of their lives through people’s negotiating forums,

work places, committees, etc.

Women are saving for better quality houses through savings groups,

which means partnerships with government. There are savings groups

right through the country as well as in rural areas. For example, in

one area in Guguletu there are 14 groups. There is the People’s

Housing Federation, Malibongwe Park in Pelican Park, which was

formed by the Mama’s Housing Project, and the North West People’s

Housing Project.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 55 of 98

We thank the Ex-President of Zambia, Kenneth Kaunda, for the role he

played in getting housing for our people in South Africa through

Habitat for Humanity in Mamelodi.

We knew from long ago that we were going to govern. In our document

“Ready to Govern” we made sure that we identified the principles

underlying the ANC’s housing policy as follows: Housing is a right,

housing should contribute to social equity, housing is a critical

component of development, community control over and participation

in the housing delivery process is of the outmost importance. It

also stresses the fact that women’s housing needs are addressed,

their full participation in and influence over the institutions

controlling housing must be guaranteed.

I do acknowledge the contribution made by previous Ministers in

laying the foundation for housing, for the nation. The National

Housing Minister, Comrade Lindiwe Sisulu, has committed the country

to eradicating all informal settlements and putting in place the

strategy of sustainable human settlement. We do welcome the N2

Gateway as a national pilot project.

Nationally, more than 1 614 houses have been delivered and, in the

process, more than 7 million people were housed through the

government subsidy programme, led by the ANC government.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 56 of 98

We are committed to improving the lives of South Africans at all

costs. When millions of people came in their big numbers to renew

the mandate of the ANC in the elections last year, they were saying:

“ANC, you are the only hope we have”, and hence we dare not fail the


The housing problems created by apartheid are many and varied. They

include the racial fragmentation of our cities and the high

correlation between poverty and race. A high proportion of the

population has poor access to basic services and there is a shortage

of decent, safe and integrated affordable housing.

The provision of housing under the apartheid regime has doubly

discriminated against women with regard to allocation, system tenure

and all the institutions controlling housing. Given the pervasive

poverty and the unequal distribution of the wealth and land, the ANC

housing policy is promoting nonracialism and nonsexism, and caters

for the disadvantaged groups such as the poorest of the poor, the

old and the disabled.

As the oldest political organisation that has stood the test of

time, the empowerment of people is one of the principles of the ANC.

We believe that community groups should be able to participate in

the decisions, the implementation and management of their housing,

hence the formation of the People’s Housing Projects. As Premier
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 57 of 98

Matthews Phosa, said: “There is delivery in action. This is the RDP

in action. This is keeping our promise to house the nation.”

Since the birth of democracy, in 1994, the post-apartheid government

has prioritised women’s empowerment. The empowerment of women in the

delivery of housing continues to grow. Women are gaining skills in

fields such as bricklaying, plastering, painting and as building


We believe that investments in housing are capable of sustaining a

significant number of jobs, directly. It is critical that, as women,

we collectively attend to this challenge. The opportunities the ANC-

led government has created are plenty and they are geared to

alleviate poverty and give preference to the most vulnerable groups.

We were denied access to political power and had to endure

systematic and often brutal forms of dispossession that were mostly

meted out against us through the use of forced removals. Yet,

despite harshly bearing these indelible scars though collective and

individual efforts, our spirit lived on.

This Budget Vote debate needs to fulfil a mandate of making sure

that all South Africans are under roofs and live in decent houses.

It is the wish and command of this portfolio committee to see that

this budget translates into reality on the ground. The aim of this

budget is to see people in the backyards, farm workers and squatters
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 58 of 98

being housed. In all the efforts we are making as the ANC, we dare

not fail the electorate.

In conclusion, I want to thank the previous Ministers of Housing for

making a commitment to eradicate poverty by creating jobs through

various projects. This effort is what we in the ANC refer to as a

better life for all. The difference we are making in people’s lives

is recognised worldwide. We are on the right track towards delivery

of housing for the poorest of the poor.

So the ANC accepts this budget, and I thank you. [Applause.]

Rev M S KHUMALO: Hon Chair, Ministers and members, the ACDP commends

the Minister for her department’s visionary new plans to provide

housing for our people. We are strongly in favour of housing the

nation in sustainable human settlements. We wholeheartedly support

the Minister’s strategic leadership in the eradication of informal


The ACDP wants to see people living in attractive and pleasant

surroundings. We advocate the planting of more trees and the

building of additional places of worship, as compasses of morals.

We, therefore, urge for the increased spending on integrated rental

housing. The time has come for housing programmes to respond to the

country’s housing needs in a realistic manner. Let us address

overcrowding in the cities by building multi-level abodes such as
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 59 of 98

blocks of flats. This will also solve the problem of the scarcity of


The ACDP is encouraged by the goal of eradicating informal

settlements by the year 2014. We should ideally see the year 2005 as

an opportune time to identify those obstacles that will prevent us

from reaching this goal. It is imperative that we pinpoint those

constraints that might hinder the implementation of the programme at

lower levels of government. We further need to be forward-looking in

our approach and, to this end it would be ideal to set up a unit

that will deal with potential hindrances in a timeous manner. Such a

unit would further enable us to gain a thorough understanding of the

political and organisational feasibility of such a programme.

The ACDP advocates the total integration of fire and flood victims

with those on the waiting lists. As this is a pilot project, we urge

the Minister, as she has indicated today, to fast track her audit on

the waiting lists. The Western Cape should be a priority, in our

view. There is an urgent need for the formulation of a coherent

policy on fire and flood victims in relation to housing allocation.

The ACDP supports the Department of Housing’s strategic approach to

addressing the needs of the people in a realistic manner. The ACDP

supports this Budget. [Applause.]

Mr D C MABENA: Hon Chairperson . . . [Interjections.]
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 60 of 98

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr N P Nhleko): Order! Hon members, just give the

hon member a chance to speak.

Mr D C MABENA: Hon Chairperson, Ministers, hon members . . .

. . . angithome ngokuhalelisela abomma benarha yeKuwait ngokunikelwa

amalungelo wokuvowuta.

Umbuso webandlululo wathathela abokhokho bethu umhlaba omuhle

ononileko ekade baziphilisa ngawo ngokuwusebenza, bawunikela

idlanzana labamhlophe. Basuswa ngekani bakatelelwa ukuyohlala

eendaweni ezinganapilo lapho kunomtlhago nendlala. (Translation of

isiNdebele paragraph follows.)

[. . . let me start by congratulating the women of Kuwait on being

granted the right to vote.

The apartheid government took this beautiful and prosperous land of

our ancestors, where our ancestors survived by working the land. The

land was given to a white minority group, and our ancestors were

removed by force and forced to stay in places where the conditions

were not good; in places of poverty and hunger.]

While the erstwhile South Africa was rated an upper middle- income

class country, African people lived in vile, squalid and abject
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                    PAGE: 61 of 98

poverty.   A minority enjoyed opulence and wealth equal to that of

any developed country while a significant percentage of African

households had no access to clean water, electricity, health care

and education.

Fetid rivers of filthy liquid ran down the sides of each dirt road,

collecting in noxious pools of swirling scum, for example.

E-Ceres lapho kuhlala khona abantu abandzima kusene open sewer

system uthuvi yinto abayibona mihla namalanga, kuyinto engakarisi

neze. [Inthikamezo.] Lokho msebenzi we-DA ngoba ngiyo ekade iphethe

kuleyandawo. Kuyinselelo ekufuneka sibambisane ngayo soke. Inengi

labantu ngokutlhaga lakateleleka ukwakha izindlu zemikhukhu

ngamasenke arusileko lisebenzisa yinye indlu yokuzithuma yomgodi,

ubulwelwe bhe! (Translation of isiNdebele paragraph follows.)

[A large majority of black people stay in Ceres, which has an open

sewer system. People see human faeces every day, which is

unacceptable. [Interjections.] That is the responsibility of the DA,

since that place was under its jurisdiction. This is a challenge we

must work on. Because the majority of black people are poor,

situations such as these force them to build shacks with old

corrugated iron. And they have to use only one pit latrine toilet,

which causes disease.]
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 62 of 98

The imposition of influx control and the Group Areas Act was a

monster designed by the apartheid government to contain African

settlement in the urban areas. Poor Africans were marginalised and

put on the outer periphery of cities. This meant that any attempt to

find work would be difficult and thus they were rendered even more


The municipalities that were previously controlled by apartheid

exacerbated the suffering of Africans by building houses within

flood lines, dolomite areas – for example Atteridgeville and Laudium

in Tshwane – and next to the air-polluted mines of Witbank, in


Umtlolo weFreedom Charter uyibeka kamnandi indaba le ngokuthi inarha

izakwabelwa phakathi labo abayisebenzako. Nami ngizalisela ngokuthi

isikhukhukazi esinamadzinyane asigwinyi isibungu. [Iinthikamezo.]

Siyazi bona kufanele sabele amadzinyana aso ngokulingana,

akhuseleke, akhule begodu azijamele, umbuso we-ANC unjalo.

(Translation of isiNdebele paragraph follows.)

[The Freedom Charter states clearly that the people shall share in

the wealth of this country. And I want to add by saying that a hen

always shares the worm with its chicks, so that the chicks can grow

up and become self-sufficient. [Interjections.] That is the

government of the ANC.]
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 63 of 98

Since 1994, the post-democracy land and housing reform programme has

achieved many of the objectives that the ANC-led government has set

out to do, in terms of balancing the unequal scale of land and

housing ownership emanating from apartheid South Africa.

Kusesenabantu abatswenywa ziinthoro, abangafuni ukuhlalisana nezinye

iinhlanga kunye netjhuguluko. E-Gauteng duze neLeeukop Prison inarha

yombuso imangele bona izokwakhiwa nini, abaneenthoro basebenzisa

umthetho ukuvala iragelo phambili. Abantu be-Alexandra bangakhelwa

izindlu kileyondawo. Bengibawa ukuthi icalisiswe kabutjha indaba le.

Umtlolo weFreedom Charter uthi kuzakuba nezindlu, ivikeleko nepilo

engcono. (Translation of isiNdebele paragraph follows.)

[There are still rich people who don’t want to stay with the other

races and who resist transformation. In Gauteng, near the Leeukop

Prison, there is no land development; because rich people use some

of the regulations to delay the land development process. That land

can be used to build houses for people of Alexandra. I appeal to you

that we must reconsider this matter.]

Over the past 10 years the ANC-led government has made tremendous

advances in most cities in terms of providing essential

infrastructure and services. It also took into account people’s

EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 64 of 98

Lokho akutjho okobana iimfuno zabantu zifeziwe zoke, abantu abahlali

ndawonye basuka endaweni baye kwenye. [That doesn’t mean that

everyone’s demands were met. People do not stay in one place, but

move from one place to another.]

Population growth and rapid urbanisation have resulted in a growing

number of people who live in informal settlements. Gauteng is the

most urbanised and 97% of its population lives in urban areas. It is

followed by the Western Cape where the population is 88% urbanised.

This challenge warranted an urgent intervention. The Department of

Housing adhered to the President’s instruction by coming up with a

comprehensive programme for dealing with human settlements and

social infrastructure.

UNgqongqotjhe weZindlu uDrh Lindiwe Sisulu ubeke unyaka ka-2014

njengonyaka okuzabe kungasekho imikhukhu enarheni yekhethu. [The

Minister of Housing, Dr Lindiwe Sisulu, has described the year of

2010 as the year when there will be no shacks.]

The comprehensive plan will redirect and enhance existing mechanisms

to move towards a more responsive and effective delivery. Apart from

upgrading informal settlements, the strategy focuses on encouraging

densification, expanding rental housing stock and private sector

investment in low-cost housing. The vital part of the plan is the

integration of all levels of government and other departments in

order to reach tangible goals.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                      PAGE: 65 of 98

Whilst we are pro-BNG, that is, for the “breaking new ground”

strategy, it’s upon all of us to come up with other strategies that

will help curb and deal with mushrooming informal settlements. The

Gauteng province came up with the community builder programme,

because it’s essential for this province to deliver houses at high

pace. This programme provides an avenue for short-term job creation

and skills transfer in conjunction with the principles of the

Expanded Public Works Programme. It introduces the youth and the

unemployed into productive work processes linked to housing

delivery. This programme shouldn’t be confused with the people’s

housing process, PHP, which is also about deepening and enriching

the people-driven housing delivery process.

Public sector hostels, which were the breeding ground of crime and

ethnic tensions, have had their name changed to affordable rental

accommodation, or ARA. They were male dominated and earmarked for

migrant labourers. Provincial housing departments have to be

commended for carrying out this tough and, in some instances, very

risky mandate.   Habitable rental single and family units have been

realised through rebuilding and conversion of these hostels, for

example Mzamo in KwaLanga, Thokoza in KwaZulu-Natal, Mamelodi,

Attridgeville, Soshanguve and Alexandra in Gauteng province.

Into ekarisako kobana abomma baphakathi kwabosonkotraga bokwakha

zabobaba inani labo liyakhula, Malibongwe! [What is interesting is
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 66 of 98

that women are also included in the construction industry, and that

the number is growing. Thank you.]

These converted units brought back family calmness and are also a

vehicle for human integration. Minister, 10 bursaries for learners

are not sufficient. We urge the department to add more in order to

encourage those matriculants who are sitting idle at home to become

housing specialists. Let’s invest in the future of our children, in

particular the girl-child.

In conclusion, people living with HIV/Aids have a harder time

obtaining finances for houses, both because lending institutions are

hesitant to make loans and because their income will be low. This is

a reality and a challenge that we all must face and overcome. In

2003 the Department of Housing issued an HIV/Aids framework document

based on a survey conducted in all provinces. The study noted that

households headed by children were increasing and that by 2010 there

will be approximately 1,2 million orphans. The study advocated the

development of institutional housing models to address the housing

needs of orphans.

Local government is nearest to the people and must take a leading

role in gathering relevant information regarding child-headed

households. Correct data should be given to relevant departments,

for example social development. The Children’s Bill contains

proposals for the recognition of a child-headed household under the
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 67 of 98

supervision of an adult designated by a social worker or community-

based organisation.

The Bill further provides that child-headed households, and I quote:

 . . . may not be excluded from any aid, relief or other programme

 for poor households provided by an organ of state in the national,

 provincial or local sphere of government solely by reason of the

 fact that the household is headed by a child.

Therefore, specific attention must be paid by government programmes

to realising the rights of the most vulnerable.

I-ANC iyayisekela iBudget Vote le. Ngiyathokoza. [Iwahlo.] [The ANC

supports the Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Geagte mnr die Voorsitter, in September verlede

jaar word die agb Minister aangehaal waar sy by ’n mediakonferensie

die volgende belofte maak. Sy sê: “Gee my 10 jaar en ek wys jou ’n

Suid-Afrika sonder plakkerskampe.” Ek ken dié agb Minister nou al

redelik lank; van 1994 af - ons was saam in die Staande Komitee oor

Intelligensie – maar ek wil vir haar sê al wat haar sal kan red van

hierdie belofte is as sy ná 2009 nie meer die Minister van Behuising

is nie. Dis al wat haar sal kan red hiervan.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 68 of 98

Hoekom sê ek dit? In Mei 2000 – vyf jaar gelede – ontstaan 50

plakkershutte op die plaas van mnr Braam Duvenhage op die

Modderklip-boerdery aan die buitewyke van die woonbuurt Daveyton aan

die Oos-Rand. Op 12 April 2001 kry mnr Duvenhage ’n hofbevel van die

Johannesburgse Hooggeregshof dat die plakkers onwettig op sy grond

is en dat die staat mnr Duvenhage se eiendomsreg moet beskerm. Dis

’n opdrag!

Ná hierdie hofbevel word die probleem van staatsinstelling na

staatsinstelling aangegee, maar niemand doen iets nie. Dis soos die

spreekwoordelike drie apies: “Ek hoor niks, ek sien niks en ek sê

niks”. Op 20 November 2002 is daar ’n Pretoriase Hooggeregshof-

uitspraak, en wat sê die regter, regter De Villiers, daarin? Hy sê:

“So kan dit nie aangaan nie. Die regering moet nou in rat kom.” Die

regering moet in rat kom! Dis wat ’n regter vir die regering sê! Die

hof het bepaal die staat moet ’n skema praktiseer oor die

verskaffing van huisvesting of toegang tot grond. Hy bevind die

regering se beleid skiet te kort omdat dit nie voorsiening maak vir

plakkerhervestiging nie.

Daar was ander hofsake en ’n appèluitspraak, maar op die ou end is

dit Konstitusionele Hof toe, en verlede Vrydag,

op 14 Mei 2005, maak die Konstitusionele Hof ’n bevinding, en wat sê

die regter, regter Pius Langa? Hy sê:
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 69 of 98

  Plakkery op dié skaal bedreig baie meer as ’n individu se regte.

  Dit bedreig vrede en stabiliteit. Versuim van die staat om te help

  is ’n resep vir anargie.

Dis wat die agbare regter van die Konstitusionele Hof sê. Hy sê daar

is ’n moontlikheid van anargie as daar nie gekyk word na hierdie

probleem nie.

Nou vra ek die agb Minister: ís daar nou al ’n behoorlike beleid vir

plakkerhervestiging? Wanneer gaan hierdie hervestigingsprogram dan

geïmplementeer word? Hierdie hofsake het meer as R1 miljoen gekos,

maar ek wil vir die agb Minister sê, en ook vir die President, in

wie se naam die aansoek by die Konstitusionele Hof was, hierdie

regskostes is nie die President of die Minister se koste en geld

waarmee hulle kan omgaan nie; dis belastingbetalers se geld! Dit is

húlle geld wat na my mening vir hierdie doel misbruik word om

onnodige hofsake te maak waarin nie alleen individue se eiendomsreg

beskerm word nie, maar volgens die Konstitusionele Hof ook die vrede

en stabiliteit in die hele gemeenskap, die hele Suid-Afrika.

Daarom sê ons van die VF Plus se kant af dit het tyd geword – ná die

hofuitspraak is dit nou baie duidelik – dat ons nie meer soos die

drie apies kan sê ons hoor niks, ons sien niks en ons sê niks nie. U

sal nou iets moet doen. Ek dank u. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of

Afrikaans speech follows.)
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 70 of 98

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, in September last year the hon

Minister was quoted making the following promise at a media

conference. She said: “Give me 10 years and I will show you a South

Africa without squatter camps.” I have known this hon Minister for

quite some time now; since 1994 – we both served on the Standing

Committee on Intelligence – but I would like to tell her that the

only thing that can save her from this promise is if she no longer

serves as Minister of Housing after 2009. That is the only thing

that can save her from this.

Why do I say this? In May 2000 – five years ago – 50 squatter shacks

were erected on the farm of Mr Braam Duvenhage, Modderklip Farm, on

the fringes of the suburb Daveyton on the East Rand. On 12 April

2001 Mr Duvenhage obtained a court order from the Johannesburg High

Court stating that the squatters are on his land illegally and that

the state should protect Mr Duvenhage’s right of tenure. It was an


After this court order the problem was passed from one state

institution to the next, but nobody is doing anything. It is like

the proverbial three monkeys: “Hear nothing, see nothing and say

nothing.” On 20 November 2002 there was a Pretoria High Court ruling

and what did the judge, Judge de Villiers, say in it? He said: “It

cannot go on like this. Government has to get into gear.” Government

has to get into gear! That is what a judge is saying to the

government! The court determined that the state had to devise a
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 71 of 98

scheme for the provision of housing or access to land. He finds that

government’s policy is insufficient because it does not provide for

squatter resettlement.

There have been other court cases and a judgement of appeal, but in

the end it went to the Constitutional Court and last Friday, on 14

May 2005, the Constitutional Court made a ruling and what did the

judge, Judge Pius Langa say? He said:

 Squatting on this scale threatens much more than an individual’s

 rights. It threatens peace and stability. The failure of the state

 to assist is a recipe for anarchy.

This is what the hon judge of the Constitutional Court said. He said

there is a possibility of anarchy if this problem is not looked at.

Now I am asking the hon Minister: Is there an adequate policy for

squatter resettlement yet? When will this resettlement programme be

implemented? These court cases have cost more than R1 million, but I

want to tell the hon Minister as well as the President, in whose

name the application to the Constitutional Court was brought, that

these legal fees are not the President or the Minister’s costs and

money for them to carry on with; This is   taxpayers’ money! It is

their money, in my opinion, that is being misused for the purpose of

creating unnecessary court cases in which not only the individuals’

rights of tenure is protected but, according to the Constitutional
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 72 of 98

Court, the peace and stability in the whole community and the entire

South Africa as well.

That is why we are saying, on the part of the FF Plus, that the time

has come – after the court judgement it is now very clear – when we

can no longer say like the three monkeys that we hear nothing, see

nothing and say nothing. You will have to do something. I thank you.


Mr M T LIKOTSI: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and members, the state

of housing in our country is a point of concern for all patriots of

this country.

The type and quality of houses built is not a true reflection of the

gains made in our liberation struggle. The rate by which these

houses are built is a challenge to all of us to revise our

strategies and devise a quicker and more qualitative approach to

rebuild our tarnished image.

This Budget Vote is expected to move a long way towards addressing

the prevailing state of affairs by building houses that will reflect

a dignified nation. The human settlement development programme,

through its latest portion of grants allocated towards the area of

nodes, may in one way or another move us a step further towards

meeting our challenges.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 73 of 98

When we relentlessly engaged in a protracted liberation struggle, we

fought for the improvement of the conditions   that dehumanised our

people at the time. We consciously coined words such as “matchbox”

houses as a sign to show our displeasure and discomfort with the

type of housing that the minority colonial rulers had prescribed to

us. Africans were subjected to 99-year leaseholds which prevented

them from obtaining certain privileges, such as securing bank loans

against the bond of the properties they occupied, like homeowners.

We must congratulate the Ministry at this point on passing

legislation that has addressed the challenges of the 99-year

leaseholds. Today we can proudly talk about people who have the

title deeds of the houses they occupy.

This process must be fast-tracked to cover all other people who are

still to get their title deeds in both urban and rural areas. All

the people who own RDP houses must also be given title deeds.

Our people are homeless. They live in shacks of a horrible make –

plastic and cupboards. Our people live in abject poverty, and they

have lost their human dignity. We have fallen into a trap that

mentally enslaves our people by convincing them to accept that they

are inferior human beings and that they deserve to stay in these

types of dwellings – shacks or the indecent structures we call

EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                    PAGE: 74 of 98

Our housing support institutions must take the direct blame for the

delivery of houses built. The private sector, which benefited from

apartheid rule, may not escape unscathed. They are guilty of the

past mishaps. The international community that gives us funds for

housing, such as from USAid, NORAD, Rooftops and the European

Commission, must immediately act responsibly. They must fund us for

housing that will reclaim our dignity as a nation.

Let this department move swiftly to address housing shortages in all

areas, especially where people have been living as backyard dwellers

for a long time and those who live in informal settlement.

The PAC supports this Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Mr Z S MKHIZE:   Hon Chairperson, hon Minister of Housing and

colleagues, the theme of my speech is based on the 50th anniversary

of the Freedom Charter.

As you are aware, KwaZulu-Natal is the biggest and amongst our

developing provinces. In history, this is the first time for our

people to own houses and title deeds in rural areas.

Isiqubulo esinaso sithi, “Umuntu, umuntu ngomuzi”, okusho ukuthi uma

ungenawo umuzi nendawo yokuhlala, ufana nomuntu ohambaze. Ngakho

ngithe angibheke kakhulu laphayana ezindaweni zasemakhaya lapho

kuhlala khona abantu abaningi abalinganiselwa ema-40%. Ngesikhathi
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 75 of 98

uhulumeni wentando yeningi engakabikhona, bebekhona yini abantu

abanemizi? Uma sikhumbula isimo sezombusazwe ekade sikhona

ngaphambili, bekulukhuni satshe futhi kuyiphupho kungake kube khona

abantu abanezindlu ezakhiwe uhulumeni ezindaweni zasemakhaya.

Bekunemithetho eminingana-ke ebikhona ngale nje kokuthi kwakhiwe.

Bayazi laba abasuka emakhaya ezindaweni zamakhosi ukuthi bekukhona

imitheshwana yezinduna namakhosi yokuthi abanakwakhelwa abantu

izindlu lapha. Kodwa manje ngokwakhiwa kwalezo zindlu kwenze abantu

bazibona banesithunzi ngoba ukuba nomuzi kukwakhelwa isithunzi.

Ngakho uma ngabe ungumuntu nje uzihambela laphana uyazibuza ukuthi

kusho ukuthini ukuba nomuzi. Ukuba nomuzi kuwena kusho ukuthi

uzethembe kakhulu. Njengoba kukhona ubhubhane lolu lwesifo

sengculazi futhi sazi kamhlophe ukuthi abazali bayahamba emhlabeni

zisale izingane zingenayo indawo yokukhosela, uhulumeni wenze

elikhulu igalelo kule minyaka nje ephethe uhulumeni we-ANC. Ngakho

akusekho muntu nje omthola equnquluze esigangeni kuthiwe akanayo

indawo yokufihla ikhanda.

Ngakho-ke uhulumeni okhona njengamanje siwethulela isigqoko. Sithi

eminyakeni engaphambili nasemlandweni owake waba khona ngaphambili,

akaze kwenzeke lokhu kubo bonke labo hulumeni abake baba khona

ngaphambi kukahulumeni ophethwe yi-ANC. Sithi-ke Ngqongqoshe,

njengekomiti elikhulu, siyoba seduzane kwakho futhi sibambisane nawe

ngazo zonke izinto ezihlelwayo eziya phambili. Siyohlala ngaso sonke

isikhathi sikuphethe ngezandla ezifudumele ukuze umsebenzi uqhubeke
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 76 of 98

kahle. Ngifuna ukusho ukuthi lesi sabiwomali sanamhlanje

siyayesekela siyi-ANC. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu paragraphs


[We have a slogan that says: “ A man is a man because he has a

house”, which means that a man who does not have a house is like a

destitute man. I want to concentrate on the rural areas where the

majority of approximately 40% live. Were there people who owned

houses before the democratic government came to power? If we

remember the previous political conditions, we will remember that it

was very difficult and impossible to dream that the government would

ever build houses for the people in the rural areas.

There were a number of rules to be followed before a person could be

given a place to build a house. Those who come from the rural areas

know that there were tribal rules made by izinduna and amakhosi

which prevented the building of formal houses in rural areas. Now

people regard themselves as very dignified since they have received

houses, because the building of houses brought some sense of dignity

to them. Even an ordinary person would want to know what it feels

like to have a house. If you have a house you really feel dignified.

We are faced with the HIV/Aids scourge, and we know very well that

the elders are dying and children are left without shelter.

Therefore the ANC-led government has played a significant role since

it took over. That is why nobody would be found sleeping on the side

of the road because he/she does not have a shelter.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                     PAGE: 77 of 98

Therefore we salute the present government. We note that none of the

governments that have been in power did what the ANC-led government

has done. We, the portfolio committee, shall always be next to you

Minister and we shall work with you on all progressive programmes.

We shall treat you warmly all the time so that the work gets done.

The ANC supports this Budget. [Applause.]]

Mr R B BHOOLA: Chairperson, hon Minister, we are from a segregated

society where the majority was marginalised into harsh living

conditions. In ten years, our democracy has turned around the

conditions imposed by the apartheid regime and has worked hard to

put back, set free, provide, develop and attend to equality, as

enshrined in our Constitution.

The public has often been brainwashed into believing that our

government is useless, that people have received nothing from this

system. But we have! We have our freedom! We have rights! We have

access and attained great success in all faculties, be it in

education, health, housing, transport, safety and security to name

but a few!

Our miracle cannot work overnight. And the public needs continual

updates on our progress so that they may be encouraged by our

achievements and true potential. Since 1994, social housing, running

tap water and sanitation have been made available to so many
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 78 of 98

impoverished South Africans. Work such as this continues with great

commitment in Manusa and Schweizer-Reneke. This rural area will also

be abandoning the bucket system and replacing it with flushing


However, the MF is concerned about the negative mindsets of

residents, especially affluent ones, who often object to

developments of social housing in neighbouring area. Such is the

situation in the upmarket suburb of Fairlands in Johannesburg, where

the development of 270 to 300 social housing units is on the agenda,

and residents are not happy. After ten years, the MF would have

expected an abandonment of the segregated attitudes of the apartheid

regime. The mindset that every black man steals, murders and is

dangerous needs to be abandoned. [Applause.]

Foreign investment in public and private sector development

continues to increase even though petrol prices now creep in as a

condition to consider when purchasing a house. Even though the

Minister of Finance predicts that a boost to employment will boost

housing development, he is being criticised by those residents who

say that such infrastructure plans will have a short life span and

leave many unable to pay their bonds.

In terms of the budget, the nominal increase of 7% since last year

is welcome. It appears that all department programmes have received
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 79 of 98

a substantial real increase. The programme management has received a

nominal decrease of 33.1%, which is accepted through reasoning.

The MF would like to see greater housing development in KwaZulu-

Natal, and such development should be made accessible and available

to the impoverished minorities as well as majorities.

The MF supports the budget. [Applause.]

Mr S J MASANGO: Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, one of

the major responsibilities of the Department of Housing is to

allocate funds to house millions of homeless South Africans. The aim

is to build houses and not just lay foundations. Yet foundations

gathering dust are all that some municipalities have to show in

South Africa. What has happened to the money that was supposed to go

into completing the projects and what will be done to ensure that

they are finished?

The Minister of Housing must set up a team to investigate all

incomplete housing projects. Chairperson, I am saying this on the

following grounds. There is a possibility that in many cases

developers and contractors have received the full payment for

finishing a house, yet they have only gone as far as laying the

foundation. One contractor in the Free State was paid R5 million for

building six toilets. It will be suicidal for the government to

downplay this, especially with councillors owning building
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 80 of 98

contractors. Contractors want to make a profit by building houses,

but if you get the same amount for building a foundation or a couple

of toilets, why build the whole house?

There are beneficiaries who have applied in 1996 and are still

waiting for their houses. Others have died waiting and their

children are homeless. Some foundations have been there for more

than seven years now. It is as if those who were first in the queue

for RDP houses are now being punished. These people are becoming

sick of waiting for government to deliver on its promises. Just last

week over 500 protestors in KwaZakhele Township, Port Elizabeth,

burnt tyres, threw stones, chased cars and closed in on the mayor’s

car demanding to be heard.

A few months earlier Cape Town also saw angry protests. The Minister

clearly cannot afford to continue ignoring incomplete projects and

other delays. He must act now. The reason given for the incomplete

projects are pure nonsense and are unsubstantiated. If you start a

project you must put your plans on the table with a definite

starting time, completion time and a plan to overcome any obstacles.

Why start a project if you cannot complete it? Why have things

stalled at foundation level?

The Mpumalanga MEC for Housing, Jabu Mahlangu, has stopped all new

housing projects in the province due to the sheer number of

incomplete projects. His aim is to investigate the problem causing
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 81 of 98

the incompletion of projects. I fully agree with him and his

department to launch an investigation, but the stoppage on new

housing projects will simply create more backlogs. The MEC must go

further and investigate whether developers and contractors were paid

in full for incomplete projects and take harsh action where


Last year in my budget speech I congratulated the Minister on

changing focus from quantity to quality, but I was disappointed when

I visited the RDP houses in Witbank, at the Malahleni Municipality.

The houses are of such a poor standard that while sitting inside,

you do not need windows to see whether it is cloudy or the sun is

shining outside. You can just look through the roof. When it rains,

most of the houses’ walls get wet inside, which leaves a greenish

colour on them. This is the consequence of developers and

contractors cutting their costs by using less cement in order to

make a bigger profit.

Chairperson, we are still making the same mistake we were making in

the past. We need to learn a few things from them for a change. One

of the common and longstanding mistakes is that while the

application to qualify for an RDP house has not yet been processed,

the developer has already started to build the house.   After

processing the applications some people do not qualify, but houses

have already been built for them. Those houses stand empty and at

that point they are either vandalised or illegally occupied, in some
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 82 of 98

cases with the help of corrupt councillors or officials who make

money out of those houses. We must change the procedure so that

people who qualify for RDP houses have their applications approved

before their houses are built.

Last year in August I requested your intervention at Bethal in

eMzinoni extension 22 and 23, where there are disputes over the

ownership of RDP houses. The letter was forwarded to the MEC for

housing in Mpumalanga and I have made several follow-up enquiries,

but nothing has been done. Those who legally qualify for RDP houses

that have been built are still languishing in the shacks and in the

backyards. Those who have never applied are occupying the houses. A

solution to this problem is long outstanding and I think the

Minister will not be happy to sit and let it explode.

Perhaps if more delivery took place, fewer faxes from an informal

settlement named Joe Slovo would have arrived at the Minister’s

office. Thank you.

Mr T S DODOVU: Modulasetulo ya hlomphehang, ha ke dumele hore Ntate

Masango o dula Afrika Borwa mona, ka lebaka la dintho tseo a di

buang. Ke kgolwa hore le puo ya hae e ngotswe ke Ntate Leon, mme ha

ke dumele hore e ngotswe ke yena. (Translation of Sotho paragraph

EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 83 of 98

[Hon Chairperson, I do not believe that Mr Masango lives in South

Africa because of the things that he utters. I believe that even his

speech has been prepared by Mr Leon. I do not think that he prepared


Chairperson, I feel honoured to participate in this debate today.

Today, as we approach the celebrations of the 50th anniversary of

the Freedom Charter, we say, without any fear of contradiction, that

since the advent of our new democratic dispensation in 1994, the

poor people of this country continue to benefit from the collective

wisdom of our traditions and forbears, but that there is a dire need

to provide houses, security and comfort to them.

It is therefore fitting, at this juncture, with humble strength and

deep pride, that we repeat the words of former generations, because

they are also our own words today, that South Africa belongs to all

who live in it, black and white.

At a time when millions of our people are waiting expectantly for

the government to bring new hope and justify their trust in them for

adequate housing, unfortunately there are among us some self-

professed genuine mouthpieces of our people who pursue a blind and

cheap popularity that has nothing to do with housing the poor.

At a time when the government has to contend with serious challenges

in governance and housing delivery, these opportunists attempt to
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 84 of 98

gain popularity on the basis of propositions that sound radical but

are very impractical, such as distinguishing between our people who

live in the backyards and those who are on the waiting lists.

Indeed, they do need votes like predators need the smell of blood.

The ANC government should not, and will not, allow any political

provocation to distract us from our central message that together we

should build sustainable human settlements so as to ensure a better

life for all.

Since 1994 the government has established national institutions to

facilitate housing-related needs of the market. Most of these

institutions were born as a result of the Botshabelo accord,

recognising the need to encourage the formal lending sector to

increase lending to the lower end of the market.

It is therefore important also to state the role of the People’s

Housing Partnership Trust, which is important in giving support to

people who wish to build their own houses. The main challenge facing

these institutions is to engage with municipalities and civil

society to participate meaningfully in the people’s housing process.

In the light of the new housing strategy it is critical to review,

redefine or reposition our housing solutions in order to meet the

growing demand of creating viable communities and sustainable human

EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 85 of 98

In addition, the National Urban Reconstruction and Housing Agency

has a critical role to play to facilitate the flow of finance from

financial institutions to low-income housing development. This is

important because it will advance credit not only to the developers

and contractors, but it will enable low-income families to top up

their housing subsidy so as to invest equity in large-scale housing


Over the years the Rural Housing Loan Fund has played a crucial role

in providing loans through intermediaries to low-income households

in the rural areas. This scheme also provides them with access to

credit that enables them to unleash the potential of their self-help

savings and local ingenuity to build and improve their shelter over


In the light of the new housing strategy, the role of the Social

Housing Foundation cannot be overemphasised. Since its establishment

in 1997, the SHF has played a pivotal role in developing and

building capacity for housing institutions and in promoting

information and skills exchanges within the social housing


The recent conference on public housing stock transfer was an

important watershed in the provision and management of housing

stock. All these housing institutions are required to comply with

the Public Finance Management Act, and to report to the Department
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                    PAGE: 86 of 98

of Housing at periodical intervals. In addition, these institutions

are reporting timeously and their reports are tabled in Parliament,

where they are scrutinised by the portfolio committee.

The major challenge facing the portfolio committee is to make sure

that this institution makes an impact in terms of job creation,

poverty alleviation, broad-based black economic empowerment,

engendering a culture of savings, women’s empowerment, capacity

development, social crime prevention, fraud, corruption and

maladministration. In addition to this, they must also assist in

terms of accelerated service delivery, integrated sustainable rural

development, the urban renewal programme and medium density housing.

We should attend to these important national priorities, despite

what the right-wing parties, led by the DA, are doing by

broadcasting propaganda that is based unashamedly on gross

falsification. By directing all these vitriolic attacks, and laying

these unfounded charges, they merely want to pose as sole genuine

representatives of the people. These hostile interventions on their

part, directed against the ANC, are created so that the DA can be

seen as to represent the genuinely progressive agenda, while the ANC

is seen as bent on betraying the cause of the revolution by not

providing adequate housing to the people.

The hon members of the DA, unfortunately, should not go around

carrying the notion in their heads that the DA has a special
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 87 of 98

responsibility to be a competent watchdog over the ANC. Therefore

these hon members of the DA should not think that as ANC members we

will sit by helplessly, surrendering to their dictates and to their

whims, as whatever force takes away our soul, leaving us as nothing

but pliable instruments in the hands of whoever is controlling us.

All of us have a responsibility to move forward, because housing

constitutes a daunting challenge that is facing us. In order to deal

with and ameliorate the conditions in which our people live, we need

to support our government. We need to move this particular process

forward, because in so doing we will be answering to a principal

question that is confronting us today. These are the better ways,

these are the measures by which we can support our government in

terms of addressing the housing challenge that is facing us.

In conclusion, we, in the ANC, believe that it will be pointless to

lament about the housing backlog and the mess we have inherited from

our divided past. Yes, as we have stated on countless occasions, to

lament over it doesn’t help to eradicate it. We must all get down to

work and build sustainable human settlements. Indeed, if the housing

institutions contribute in meeting these priorities, they will have

contributed immensely towards the fulfilment of the vision of the

Freedom Charter, namely that “there shall be houses, security and

EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                     PAGE: 88 of 98

These housing institutions would have indelibly contributed in the

fulfilment of this strategic objective of our struggle of creating a

South Africa that is truly united, nonracial, nonsexist and

democratic, and indeed a South Africa that belongs to all who live

in it, black and white. I think these are the important challenges

that are confronting us.

Unfortunately, the DA perpetually continues to denigrate what the

government is doing, even the kind of progress that we have made. I

don’t think that it really helps us in terms of ensuring that the

gains that we have secured already are advanced to the majestic

heights, where all the people will live in conditions similar to

those in which they find themselves today.

We don’t think that this is a correct way of taking the process

forward, of ensuring that we are housing the nation. Key of what we

did in terms of the housing strategy of 1994, the government had to

answer the principal question: What is it that we can do in terms of

advancing the spiritual and the material wellbeing of our people?”

It puts into practice the issue of subsidies. It also puts in

practical terms how to stabilise the housing environment, mobilising

the housing credit that is necessary for the low-income families so

as to take housing forward and ensure that at the end of the day

they have shelter over their heads.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                    PAGE: 89 of 98

This dirty politicking will not help us, and will not advance our

cause. It will not help the poor people who dearly need housing.

Along those particular lines we are saying that enough is enough.

The DA must act responsibly. They must help us, and help our

government in terms of addressing those particular challenges that

are facing us, because that is important.

Two years ago, when we lectured hon Steyn in terms of housing, we

thought he would behave better, and that he would understand the

complexities of our time, but he has failed to do so. But we will

never lose patience, we will continue to teach him and teach him

until he understands better, until he understands that the only

solution to the questions that are confronting us, is to ensure that

we work harder, we act responsibly, in terms of fulfilling those

particular challenges. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

The MINISTER OF HOUSING: Chairperson, as the debate progressed I was

making copious notes to respond to some of the matters that have

been raised here. However, it got to a point, as I was listening to

the members here, where it was heartening to see that not only

members of the ANC but some members of the opposition as well were

actually answering the questions I would have answered. It gives me

hope that we are all at one in understanding the poverty of our

people and what we are called upon to do about it.   However, to

those who are not part of us, it is not a pity, but I will come back

to that. [Interjections.]
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 90 of 98

No, I must actually defend hon Masango. I think he is in the wrong

party and in a little while he might perhaps graduate to the IFP or

something more sensible than where he is right now. [Laughter.]

I want to thank the members of the committee who came here to be

part of the great sea of change and to be part of the creation of an

environment where the poorest of the poor can find their place in

the sun. I would like them to know that their efforts are

appreciated, that their efforts at being part of the delivery are

appreciated. Those who have come here with rent-a-crowd in tow to

nitpick and criticise, with nothing constructive to add, should

spend more time with the people who live in desperate conditions,

created over years of oppression. Then they will realise that their

sitting here looking for minute faults will be judged by history. It

will be judged very harshly by history.

One of my comrades here stood up to say that they were hoping to get

some sort of housing policy out of the DA. There is nothing you are

going to get from the DA except an open-mouth policy. That is all

they do. [Applause.] I just want to send a message to the DA that we

do not need to be on the same side of the benches to understand the

poverty of our country or to understand the scourge this poverty has

brought upon us.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                      PAGE: 91 of 98

I want to recognise here a member of society who has been trying to

reach out to me and I do not know if she belongs to my party. I

doubt she belongs to it, but she has been trying to reach out to me

to share her views so that she can assist me in understanding and

ensuring that we can deliver. It is Mrs Scott over there. I want to

employ her, if it is possible, as a consultant to educate the DA out

of their present quagmire. [Interjections.]

It is an open-mouth policy, yes. I would like to indicate to my hon

friend here from the DA, sorry from . . .     it is such an insult, I

am so sorry. My sincerest apologies. He is from the Freedom Front.

Whenever he wants to make a point which he does not want answered

while he is speaking to me, he speaks in Afrikaans. He speaks in

very rapid Afrikaans, because he knows that by the time I have

reached out for my gadget and put it to my ear, he will have

finished what he wanted to say.

We have spent a long time with this hon member in the portfolio

committee and he spoke English to me, except when he did not want me

to answer. What I did manage to get from what he was saying leads me

to say that I would have expected the FF to join us in the

eradication of slums; precisely so that we can deal with some of the

problems that we are faced with.   Come onto our side, help us build

these houses and we will ensure that the money your constituents

need to have in their pockets so as to ensure that they are more

productive in their agricultural sector will be well spent.    Come
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 92 of 98

over to our side and we will deliver to our people. You are sitting

on the wrong side over there.

I also wanted to say to the member of the DA, now that half of the

rent-a-crowd has gone, that it is important to be aware of the

present. Right now we are here to review the budget that has been

given to us for the coming year, and to review and assess how we

have used the money that we got last year. For him to go back to

1902, when in fact we are dealing with the present and assessing

whether or not we are moving forward, is completely irrelevant here.

We have explained time and again that we took time to look back on

the past 10 years to see whether some of the policies we had were

correct. We retained what was necessary for us to go forward with

and we removed that which was not necessary, which is why we have a

new plan. This new plan is intended to ensure that we can

effectively deliver what we call decent houses. [Interjections.] I

would like to call you once again . . . Will you shut up! I would

like to call you once again to come with me to see the conditions

that our people are dealing with. [Interjections.] No you don’t, you


Adv H G SCHMIDT: Hon Chair, on a point of order: Is that

parliamentary? And I think the hon Minister should rather sit down,

because she is tired when addressing the House.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                    PAGE: 93 of 98

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr N P Nhleko): No, I am sorry. Order! Hon

members, please, ake simeni Bantu bakithi angisamuzwa manje

umnumzane ukuthi uthini manje. [Let us stop fellow people; I cannot

hear what he is saying.]

The MINISTER OF HOUSING: Akukho lutho alushoyo bakithi. [He

has said nothing.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr N P Nhleko): Will you just go ahead,

asseblief [please]. I couldn’t hear what you were saying.

Adv H G SCHMIDT: Hon Chair, I think on a point of order, the

Minister should sit down when I am raising a point of order.

The MINISTER OF HOUSING:   No, I won’t. [Interjections.]

Adv H C SCHMIDT: Or should both of us stand?

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr N P Nhleko): Hon members, I need to be

assisted, asseblief tog [please]. What is your point of order?

Adv H C SCHMIDT:   My point of order, Mr Chair, is whether it is

parliamentary for the hon Minister to say shut up to another member?


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr N P Nhleko): Hon Schmidt, there is nothing

unparliamentary about that. Thank you. Please go ahead, Minister.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 94 of 98

The MINISTER of HOUSING: I think it might also be necessary for the

DA occasionally to take in some of its new members and teach them

some of the parliamentary rules and regulations and then they will

not waste our time.

There are a number of things that I wanted to correct for the

record, because it is unfortunate that they will be presented here

when there is no accuracy in what is being put across. The member of

the DA here has indicated that, in a presentation from my

department, it was quite clear that the department knew nothing

about the projects that were blocked and we are still going to

investigate this. I have had occasion to check with my staff,

because this would not be possible as we have database dealing with

this. My staff have come back to me to say this statement is

incorrect. I would like us to get back to the Hansard of the

particular committee that we are dealing with, so that when we come

here we actually reflect the truth as it should be reflected.

The other matter that I need to indicate is that this particular

individual has been in parliament I should like to think long enough

to understand the ways in which we technically allocate the

programmes. The programme he is referring to is for consultants and

he tries to put in a snide remark about personal consultants. That

was not lost on me.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 95 of 98

I would like to explain to you that this particular programme,

programme 3, is termed “for consultants”, but the money reflected

there is not for consultants. The R50 million that we have been

given to give capacity to the municipalities is in this programme

and the reason why it has gone up exponentially is precisely because

the money for the municipalities is in there. The money for the

training programmes is part of this particular programme, so next

time you are in the portfolio committee you should seek to

understand before you come forward.

A number of times we have heard people referring to the sad

situation in KwaZakhele. It is important that I emphasise this

again. This is the reason why we have taken the opportunity to ask

for more money to give capacity to the municipalities. Over and

above that, I was very glad that the chairperson touched on a matter

that is actually responsible for some of the problems in KwaZakhele.

KwaZakhele has suffered more than its fair share of natural

disasters. Money that would otherwise have been allocated to housing

has been diverted to natural disasters. I am glad that you now have

this conference on natural disasters so that between ourselves and

local government, which is responsible for natural disasters, we

find a way to allocate funding that goes very directly to natural

disasters. So please, do understand the context in which that

particular circumstance in KwaZakhele is occurring. I will take

every opportunity to go down to the Eastern Cape and ensure that we

can sort out this matter. It is nothing to gloat about. It is
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 96 of 98

nothing to gloat about when there are serious circumstances that

need our attention.

Finally, I want to thank the acting Director-General, Mr Vawda, and

his deputy, Mr Dlabantu, and the department and housing institutions

for all the hard work that they have put in from the time we adopted

the human settlements plan. Looking back, it was only nine months

ago and we have covered incredible ground. I am extremely proud of

the work that we have done.

I would also like to thank my own ministerial staff, the two

advisers and the staff in the Ministry, all of whom have always gone

well beyond the call of duty to give me quality support always.

I also want to extend my gratitude to the former Director-General,

Mrs Mpumi Mpofu. We hope to find a suitable occasion later this

month to thank her for the work that she has done for us. I would

like to take this opportunity to ask hon members to please avail

themselves of this particular opportunity when we will be saying

goodbye to her.

My gratitude also goes to people who have helped us in every

conceivable way to arrive at this point, notably Partners for

Housing, Women in Housing, Mama’s Housing and others.
EPE TUESDAY, 17 MAY 2005                   PAGE: 97 of 98

Chairperson, I thank you also for the way in which you have managed

to conduct this otherwise riotous House. Again, I would like to

thank hon members for supporting my Bill. I think we are on the

right track. We will win, yet. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The Committee rose at 17:32.

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