THURSDAY, 1 JUNE 2006 by cKJ3212f

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                          THURSDAY, 1 JUNE 2006




The House met at 14:04.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment

of silence for prayers or meditation.


                           APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 8 – National Treasury (Intelligence):F

The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: Madam Speaker, hon members, may I

greet everybody in the name of International Children’s Day and may

we secure a bright future – a secure future – for them.

During the past year our country was wracked by a severe

intelligence crisis. Grave misconduct by rogue elements within the

National Intelligence Agency, the NIA, included unauthorised

surveillance of citizens; unlawful interception of the

communications of members of the public and Parliament; the
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fabrication of bogus e-mails as part of a political conspiracy; and

evasions and lying to the President, the Minister and the Inspector-

General for Intelligence.

These actions were a gross abuse of state power and resources. In

the words of the inspector-general, Mr Zolile Ngcakani, they posed

the risk of undermining constitutionally protected party-political

freedoms. The misconduct has unquestionably damaged the credibility

of the domestic intelligence agency in the eyes of the public.

My speech today is necessarily devoted to commenting on that crisis

and to presenting various initiatives aimed at preventing a


Let me begin by summarising the facts. In September 2005 I received

a complaint from a prominent businessman, Mr Sakumzi Macozoma. He

claimed that he was under surveillance by the NIA. I immediately

asked the then Director-General of the NIA, Mr Billy Masetlha, for

an explanation. The report I was given was completely unsatisfactory

and evasive. I therefore requested the inspector-general to

investigate the matter, as provided for in terms of the Intelligence

Services Oversight Act.

The inspector-general completed the first phase of his investigation

by mid-October. He found that there was no legitimate basis for the

surveillance and concluded that the operation was unauthorised and
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unlawful. He also noted with concern senior management’s attempts to

conceal   information    and   mislead   both   his   investigation   and   the

Minister. On the basis of the inspector-general’s report, the NIA

officials responsible for the unlawful activities were suspended.

During this phase of the investigation, the inspector-general was

informed about a project known as Avani. On the information at hand,

he believed that it was necessary to ascertain whether this project

was linked to the unlawful surveillance operation. Accordingly, I

extended his terms of reference.

The inspector-general completed the final phase of his investigation

in March. He found that the then director-general had manipulated an

intelligence project utilising concocted e-mails that purported to

portray the existence of a political conspiracy.

These e-mails, which the inspector-general proved were false, were

used by the former director-general to launch unauthorised and

unlawful operations against the supposed authors of the e-mails.

These supposed authors included government Ministers, state

officials, politicians, journalists and businessmen. The inspector-

general’s final report was endorsed by Cabinet.

President Mbeki has dismissed the Director-General of the NIA citing

a breach of trust. The inspector-general recommended that there be
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criminal prosecutions and the Police Commissioner subsequently

announced that a criminal investigation was under way.

The Police Commissioner, the Chief of the Defence Force, the Head of

the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee and the Directors-

General of Defence, Justice and the secret service have publicly

endorsed the report and condemned Masetlha’s conduct. The inspector-

general has presented his report to the Joint Standing Committee on


Our perspective on this scandalous abuse of power should be grounded

in the founding document of our democracy, the Constitution, which

differentiates between our country’s oppressive past and its

democratic aspirations.

Nowhere was this more necessary than in relation to the security

services. According to one of the members of the Constitutional

Assembly, and I quote:

   Our starting point was the horrendous role that was played by the

   security forces of this country in the past ... Our mandate and

   objective was to ensure that our country would never again be

   subjected to security services that are above the law and the

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How shameful that this brave ideal has been violated, and within a

mere 10 years of that proclamation. What is expected is crystal

clear. In terms of the Constitution, the intelligence services are

fully subject to the law and the jurisdiction of the courts. No one

may issue an illegal order and members must disobey a manifestly

illegal order. The intelligence services are obliged to respect the

Bill of Rights, which affirms the democratic values of human

dignity, equality and freedom.

In order to ensure legitimate conduct, the Constitution insists that

all    members   of   the   security   services   must   be   taught   to    act   in

accordance with the Constitution and the law. It states emphatically

that    the   intelligence    services   may   not   further,    in    a    partisan

manner, any interest of any of our political parties, and that it

may not prejudice a political-party interest that is legitimate in

terms of the Constitution.

The intelligence services may have no loyalty to a political party

or a faction within a party. Their allegiance is to the Constitution

and the law; to the state and the executive authority; and to the

citizens of our country. Their mandate is to act in the national

interest by contributing to the security and wellbeing of all our

people, irrespective of colour, creed or party affiliation.

Because of their power and the inherent risk of abuse, the security

services should be subject to extensive controls and oversight by
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the elected and duly appointed civil authority. The underlying need

is captured by the question posed by the Roman scholar Juvenal: Quis

custodiet ipsos custodes? Who will guard the guards? Who will police

the police, and supervise the spies?

Our Constitution answers this question by providing for executive

oversight through the President and the Minister for Intelligence.

The Minister has political responsibility for the control and

direction of the services. The other pillars of oversight are the

multiparty Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence and the

Inspector-General for Intelligence, whose appointment by the

President must be approved by two thirds of the members of this


I have highlighted these constitutional provisions in order to make

three points in relation to the recent events. The first is to

assert the primacy of the Constitution. Regardless of our place in

society – whether President, Minister, parliamentarian, intelligence

officer or member of the public – we are bound by this law. We are

obliged to act according to its rules and within its boundaries.

Second, it is patently clear that the former Director-General of the

NIA and some of his colleagues violated the Constitution. The

seriousness of the matter is heightened by their seniority as state

officials. Third, the executive has acted decisively against the

wrongdoers because we are obliged to protect and defend the
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Constitution. We have demonstrated our determination to uphold the

rule of law.

It is consequently misguided to compare what transpired in our

country with the Watergate scandal in the United States of America.

As one analyst has put it:

   Richard Nixon sought to hide the illegal conduct of his

   officials, while the South African government has flushed it out

   and stamped on it.


Similarly, it is nonsense to claim that our laws provide a blank

cheque to spy on anyone for any reason. In the current case, the

rules were flouted precisely because the perpetrators could not have

pursued their dirty tricks within the parameters of the law. And I

have shown how the various oversight mechanisms provided for in law

were used to identify and stop that conspiracy.

Most strangely, some critics have suggested that those of us who

took action against the rogue elements in the NIA are the real

conspirators and that we were pursuing our own partisan agenda. This

is an Alice in Wonderland subversion of the truth.
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The facts of the matter are not in doubt. On the one hand, there was

a small group of intelligence officers who transgressed the

Constitution. On the other hand, there is a large group, including

the President, the Cabinet, the inspector-general and the heads of

the security services, that was opposed to the transgressions and

acted accordingly.

This does not make them partisan or part of a conspiracy. Turning a

blind eye to malfeasance by intelligence officers would have taken

us down the slippery slope to perdition. Let me make this absolutely


It is one thing for members of political parties to manoeuvre

against each other as they jockey for power within their party,

whether in a democratic fashion or otherwise. It may not be pretty,

but it generally occurs in political parties throughout the world.

It is quite another thing for state officials to participate in such

intrigues. This is an abuse of office, of power and public trust. It

is subversive and unconstitutional. It is akin to muttering with

Shakespeare’s Richard III, “plots have I laid and schemes to set my

brother and the king in deadly hate”. Our government will not

tolerate such intrigue.

I now turn to the broader question of transformation. It is

imperative that we use this lamentable episode to undertake

fundamental reforms that go beyond simply dealing with a few rotten
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apples to improving the overall quality of the barrel and making it

as rot-proof – or rat-proof, if you like - as possible.

Our aim must be to ensure that intelligence abuses do not occur

again. We must strengthen legislation, regulations, operational

procedures and control measures, as well as oversight mechanisms

wherever necessary.

We must re-examine some of our mandates. We must attend to the

perfidious mentality that enabled these dirty tricks to take place.

And we must place our reforms in the public domain to rebuild public

confidence and trust.

In the wake of the flagrant abuse of intelligence resources I

imposed interim ministerial control measures on the authorisation

and conduct of surveillance operations and interception of

communications. We are working towards finalising improved

procedures and measures, which will replace my interim measures. I

can report on three key initiatives in this regard.

Firstly, members will recall my announcement last year of the

formation of a legislative task team to provide assessment on a

range of policy and legal issues. Following the discovery of this

skulduggery within NIA, I expanded the team’s brief to review the

legislation, internal regulations and operating procedures in order

to identify changes that would help to prevent abuses occurring in
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the future. The task team has completed its work and presented me

with an extensive report.

The report contains important recommendations for strengthening

oversight and control and for reviewing the so-called political

intelligence mandate. I am currently considering the recommendations

and will discuss them with key stakeholders before releasing

relevant aspects for public comment in consultation with the

parliamentary committee for intelligence.

I want to make the following pledges, however. Firstly, we will

place the National Communication Centre under tighter rein so that

its capacity can only be used in the national interest and not, as

was done, to violate even the sanctity of this Parliament by

unlawfully intercepting telephonic communications to numbers within

this Parliament. Secondly, we will ensure that the newly established

Office of Interception Centres is effectively run and controlled.

Thirdly, I also wish to add that further control measures will be

guided by the findings of an internal inquiry into what was actually

an utterly botched surveillance operation on Mr Macozoma, which

apart from being unauthorised, was utterly deficient in its command

and control aspects and was akin, by the way, to the behaviour of

the Keystone cops.

I turn now to a second major initiative that will soon be embarked

upon. We intend launching a comprehensive public intelligence
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review. The intelligence services have not had the benefit of a

public review, such as occurred within the military and the police

post-1994. More than ten years after the formation of our services,

it is necessary to take stock of our experiences. A review of this

kind will only be fruitful if there is strong involvement from

Parliament and civil society. I believe this can be done without

compromising the need for secrecy where merited. In due course I

will announce the terms of reference for the review as well as the

persons nominated to serve on the review panel. These issues will be

discussed with the JSCI, which must be a prominent stakeholder in

the process.

As the conduct of certain dishonourable members of the NIA

demonstrated, control systems alone do not suffice since there are

those who will seek to subvert them. Consequently, we must seek ways

to strengthen the commitment of our members to sound moral values

and a professional work ethic.

This brings me to our third major initiative. Shortly after the

inspector-general presented his findings in October last year, I

announced my intention of establishing a civil education programme

to make sure that all intelligence personnel respect and adhere to

the law and democratic norms. I can report that preparations are

under way and I have already participated in a workshop with my top

managers to conceptualise the programme. It will be conducted

through a series of workshops for which the service heads will be
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responsible. Aspects of the programme will also be incorporated into

the training conducted by the South African National Academy for


We have identified the main themes of the curriculum. They include

an understanding of intelligence legislation and the Constitution,

particularly the Bill of Rights; the implications of the new

approach to security outlined in the Constitution; defining

intelligence professionalism in the context of a democratic South

Africa; and understanding the role of the oversight bodies. Civil

society experts will be invited to help us prepare and deliver this

curriculum, which will be unclassified and therefore open to public

scrutiny. Such training will be undertaken by the newest recruits

and the most senior managers. In the final analysis everything

depends on the sound character and wisdom of our intelligence


I turn now to comment on how our recent problems have confirmed the

appropriateness of the approach we adopted in 2004. I refer here to

our Ten-Point Programme. This approach focuses on building the

professional capacity of the intelligence services to enable them to

meet the complex challenges of the 21st century in a post-Cold-War


We maintained that our ability to deal with the new global situation

depends to a large extent on the capacity of our services to
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forewarn and render useful advice to decision-makers. We therefore

prioritised the need to enhance our core business capacity and

highlighted the need to realign our budget spending ratios away from

the rising remunerations account in favour of operational

expenditure and capital investment needs. The core business is

summed up in the expression we coined to help focus our effort on

the three main pillars of the intelligence cycle, namely the holy

trinity of collection, analysis and decision-making.

Technical skills, analytical rigour and proper values are integral

to this approach. The importance of building such professionalism

was emphasised by President Mbeki when he criticised the quality of

the intelligence he receives. He highlighted the dangers of

compromising the truthfulness of intelligence and argued that

professional officers should uphold the values of integrity,

objectivity and credibility. The President stated that a

professional intelligence organisation promotes high standards and

prizes the development of balanced, quality products.

In working to meet the President’s injunctions, our capacity-

building strategy over the past two years has emphasised the need to

develop professional officers able to set aside any bias and

preconceptions. These officers must protect our services against

manipulation, mischief and abuse.
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We have held numerous meetings with the staff. This included a

keynote address by President Mbeki to all members, which was

tantamount to the reading of the riot act. I held a four-day

lekgotla with the heads of services to review progress. We also

developed a set of Principles of Professional Intelligence Officers,

which must become ingrained as second nature. The role of the

Academy is central to inculcating the necessary values as well as

the tradecraft skills. Much needs to be done to strengthen our

Academy and training programmes and I have instructed the service

chiefs to provide more dedicated support if we are to get things


It is said that every cloud has a silver lining. Recent events have

revealed the effectiveness of our oversight mechanisms. In this

regard I acknowledge with gratitude the inspector-general whose

integrity is beyond question and whose contribution has been


I also want to thank the new Director-General of the NIA, Mr Manala

Manzini, and his team who have ably steered the ship through

troubled waters and are determined to overcome the setbacks. My

thanks go to the Director-General of the SA Secret Services, Mr Tim

Dennis, and to the National Co-ordinator of NICOC, Mr Barry Gilder,

who throughout the difficulties have displayed a high calibre of

service and commitment.
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Appreciation must be conveyed to the principal, Mr Mphakama Mbete,

the new Chairperson of the Intelligence Services Council, Ms Miriam

Sekati, the newly appointed NCC manager and directors of Comsec and

the OIC. In addition, I salute the head of the Ministry, Ms Sandy

Africa and the ministerial staff for their valuable support so

graciously rendered.

I must express deep appreciation to all the committed men and women

of our services, the vast majority of whom go about their business

with dignity and integrity. It is in the nature of intelligence work

the world over that mistakes attract public attention while the good

work goes unnoticed. I refer to such commendable achievements as the

success of our local government elections, countering terrorist and

proliferation threats, outstanding work in Africa, particularly with

regard to conflict resolution, securing special events at home and

even abroad. The last augers well with respect to securing the 2010

Football World Cup. We acknowledge the improved co-ordination

between our civilian and defence, crime and finance intelligence


We need to be frank and honest about setbacks. I can confidently

declare on behalf of my top team that we are determined to put

things right. These are professionals who can handle fair weather

and foul. They recognise that the sacred trust vested in them has

been damaged. They will rebuild this trust by abiding by an ethos,

which reflects the Constitution and conforms to the professionalism
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that the President has called for and that our people respect. They

are determined to prove their mettle and demonstrate they are worth

investing in, can provide value for money and at the end of the day

show they can make a difference.

As Juvenal’s guardians of the guards, those of us entrusted with

oversight must ensure that we diligently exercise our duty. Here I

must thank the Chairperson of the JSCI, Dr Cwele, and hon members

for their co-operation.

To the greatest extent possible, we should engage in transformation

in an open fashion. While secrecy is necessary for aspects of

intelligence, it is not essential for everything. As the drafters of

our Constitution understood full well, openness is the oxygen of

democracy and excessive secrecy will suffocate it. We really need to

create a society where when we talk about intelligence it’s not in

hushed whispers, looking over our shoulders and with a feeling of


I would like to close with the following quotation, which was made

at the end of the Second World War by somebody who played a very

important role in intelligence during that war:

 Intelligence is essential, but if it is being secret, most

 dangerous. Safeguards to prevent its abuse must be devised,

 revised and rigidly applied. But as with all enterprises, the
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 character and wisdom of those to whom it is entrusted will be

 decisive. In the integrity of that guardianship lies the hope of

 free people to endure and prevail.

I would like to recognise the Premier of the Western Cape, Ebrahim

Rasool who is here; and Judge Serite, who ensures that there is

control over the interception of our telecommunications. [Applause.]

Thank you for your hard work.

Perhaps just a parting shot: My media officer has printed the

Principles of our Professionalism and it is being produced as a

fridge magnet. I, however, want to assure all members here that this

magnet is not a tracking device. But just to play safe, I would

recommend that you only keep it on your fridge! [Laughter.] Thank

you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]

Dr S C CWELE: Somlomo, maLungu ahloniphekile ePhalamende, nami

ngisukuma egameni lenhlangano kaKhongolose ukusekela lesi sabiwomali

soMnyango wezobuNhloli. [Speaker, hon members of Parliament, I also

rise on behalf of the African National Congress to support this

Budget Vote of the Department of Intelligence.]

I rise to support this Budget Vote fully aware of and in no way to

undermine the response to the recent events in the National

Intelligence Agency. It might have raised public concerns about the

conduct of intelligence in South Africa. The Joint Standing
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Committee on Intelligence has completed its consideration of the

inspector-general’s report into the NIA.

We hope to have a very vibrant debate on these issues, once all the

statutory processing requirements have been made for the report to

be tabled in this Parliament. As the Minister has indicated, the

JSCI, we can say even at this stage, is concerned primarily about

some of the very critical allegations of abuses; particularly in

relation to the interception of communication, the financial

controls and abuse of funds and the lack of co-operation with the

oversight structures such as the inspector-general.

In support of this Budget Vote, we must attempt to answer the

following fundamental challenges. The first one is, what is the role

of the intelligence services in a democratic society like ours? What

should be our common national security concerns as South Africans?

What must we do to move towards that common national security

doctrine as South Africans?

How secret and how open should our intelligence services be? I think

the Minister has started to address some of those concerns. We must

answer the question, if we say the intelligence services are the

guards of our security and prosperity, who should guard the guards?

How can we improve our current oversight mechanisms?
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 19 of 204)

I hope that we all agree that intelligence is an essential

ingredient in sustaining our constitutional democracy, and ensuring

that South Africans can go on with their lives in conditions of

peace and stability without fear or want. The Freedom Charter was

one of the biggest consultative processes on the aspirations of the

South Africans for a democratic state. They made a call that all

people shall have the right to be decently housed, and bring up

their families in comfort and security.

They called for the provision of basic services, and that no one

should go hungry. They called for peace and friendship among all our

people and among nations. The role of the intelligence services is

to forewarn us against internal and external threats to our

democracy in order to reduce our vulnerabilities. It must warn us,

among other things, against threats to our constitutional democracy

and our integrity; to the maintenance of peace and stability of our

political, social, environmental, and economic system; to the

maintenance and promotion of our national values and interests and

to our human rights, our quality of life and justice for all.

It is against this backdrop that we assess the performance of our

intelligence services for the past financial year. As the Minister

has said, the recent setbacks of the national intelligence services

have put us in conditions we were never exposed to before as a

country. But despite that, as the Minister has said, the

intelligence officers are supposed to be professionals. These are
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men and women who are not generally rogue elements. These are men

and women who are specially selected according to certain criteria

to be in those services. We honestly believe that they will rise to

the occasion, and restore the confidence of the community in their


However, despite the recent setbacks, the National Intelligence

Agency has worked tirelessly in assessing our peace and stability,

our national integrity, and delivery of the basic services to our

communities, particularly the poor. Some even complain about what

the intelligence services are doing at the local government level.

It is their function to assess whether there are any threats to the

delivery of these services, particularly to the poor people on the


The successful and peaceful March local government elections can

also be attributed to their efforts, as the Minister has said. The

South African Secret Service continues to forewarn us about threats

to our quest for a peaceful Africa and a peaceful world. South

Africa, under the leadership of the President, hon Thabo Mbeki, has

made significant strides in consolidating peace, democracy and

development of Africa and the poor nations.

The National Co-ordinating Committee remains crucial in harnessing

our intelligence activities in order to produce better intelligence

products and reduce unnecessary duplications. Various structures
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such as Sania, Comsec, NCC, ICC, etc, are essential to give support

to our intelligence.

We support the call for an intelligence review. However, we must

build on the experiences of the past 12 years. We must assess if the

current structures and their mandate are still relevant in producing

effective intelligence product for the current phase and for the


The ANC calls upon all our services to strive for excellence and

ensure that the principal clients, in particular, receive high

quality products. We have noted with concern, as the JSCI, that our

principal client, the President, is not satisfied with the quality

of some of the intelligence products.

In addition, we must look at developing effective feedback

mechanisms between the clients and our services. In this respect, we

hope that our services will rise to the challenge.

The second challenge is to continue to define our common national

security concerns. The ANC starts from the premise that there can be

no national security without human security or individual security.

Human security encompasses freedom from fear and freedom from want.

This means that we should find effective mechanisms of engaging all

sectors of our society in developing our national security doctrine.
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We call upon Nicoc to expedite the process initiated by government

in this regard. The JSCI is looking forward to engaging the public

on this important subject, once the draft documents or the review

documents are produced or made available.

The third challenge is to review and strengthen our oversight

mechanisms. We must effectively address that question, who will

guard the guards? Intelligence, by its nature, operates in secrecy.

The main argument for this is that they cannot disclose their

activities to the public without disclosing them to their targets at

the same time. Their budgets are generally secret all over the

world, their operations are secret and their assessments are secret.

Yet democracy advocates openness and accountability.

The question remains, how secret or open should our intelligence

services be in South Africa? We have to find a middle ground to

ensure effective operations of these services, while ensuring

accountability. We live in the real world, and we cannot fully be

open unless others take advantage of our democracy. At the same time

there can be no total secrecy if we want to prevent intelligence


We must also know that Intelligence has no advocacy in public,

except this Minister and those who are involved in their oversight.

In this regard, the JSCI continues to balance this adversarial role

in ensuring that the services account for their activities at one
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end, and with that of the advocacy role on the other, so that we can

have the common understanding of what they are doing and the support

they deserve from the public.

We are assisted by several other oversight structures in conducting

our oversight, such as the Auditor-General’s office, the inspector-

general’s office and the judge responsible for issuing interception


The Auditor-General has developed a close working relationship with

the committee over the last few years. We have to pay more attention

to the capacity of the agencies to spend their budgets - the

Auditor-General has raised this on several occasions - and in

accordance with their strategic plans. We may have paid particular

attention to the capacity of the financial administration of some

agencies, particularly the National Intelligence Agency and Sanai.

The Office of the Inspector-General has a close working relationship

with the committee. They have set up the system for their

functioning and reporting. We hope the intelligence department will

co-operate with the certification function process of this office,

as it is very critical in giving the necessary assurance to the

activities of the services.

There are several concerns that have been raised by the judge, and

some of my colleagues will expand on this. They range from the term

of the office of these judges - of late there seemed to be very
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 24 of 204)

short terms for and a high turnover of these judges who are supposed

to carry out these important functions - to a lack of administrative

support and record keeping.

We hope to discuss this matter with the executive, including the

Minister of Justice and the Minister for Intelligence. This is more

urgent, particularly in the face of the recent revelations of abuses

by the inspector-general.

In conclusion, oversight is not only a challenge to South Africa

alone, but it is a worldwide problem, particularly of the

intelligence services. As the committee, we are liaising with other

structures from the rest of the world. Later this year the Office of

the Inspector-General and the JSCI will be hosting an international

intelligence oversight conference. We are humbled by the enthusiasm

of many countries for this conference, including those who will come

for the first time, particularly from the East and Africa. We hope

that this conference will also assist us to sharpen our oversight


We would like to call for the strengthening and the review of our

intelligence structures, as the Minister has indicated. We would

like to call for an inclusive process of developing our national

security doctrine. We therefore say there can be no development in

the absence of peace and stability. The ANC supports this Budget

Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 25 of 204)

Adv P S SWART: Madam Speaker, during last year’s debate on this

Budget Vote I remarked that, and I quote:

 An area of concern is the so-called political intelligence. NIA

 claims this mandate is to ensure political stability, but that can

 easily be abused. An obvious question is: Would NIA keep Tony Leon

 and Mangosuthu Buthelezi, or even the PAC, under surveillance?

The Minister of Intelligence gave assurances that under his

political leadership such abuses would not happen. Today I must at

least applaud him for his openness on what has since taken place.

Because we were both very naive at that time, little did we know

that my remarks may have been wrongly interpreted by the then

Director-General of NIA, the National Intelligence Agency, as asking

for a demonstration of such possible abuses I alluded to, and then

some more; because that’s exactly what we saw last year, not even

the ruling party was spared such abuses.

Today we sit in the aftermath of the biggest intelligence scandal

that has faced our youngest democracy, an incident with

international repercussions. Whereas I returned from the 2004

International Intelligence Review Agency’s conference in Washington

feeling proudly South African, under the illusion that in terms of

intelligence oversight we were leaders in the world, I now stand

here ashamed. This is because there I reflected on the irony of a
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 26 of 204)

conference being held in the USA when their intelligence failures,

with particular reference to 9/11, were being dealt with.

This October we will host the next conference in this very city, the

same city in which allegedly some of Parliament’s phone calls were

unlawfully intercepted by our own intelligence agencies thus

abusing, amongst other things, their so-called political

intelligence mandate. Stripped of pride and filled with shame, we

will have to face the world.

I will not, like the Minister, pre-empt the debate when the Joint

Standing Committee on Intelligence tables our special report on the

investigation by the Inspector-General of Intelligence Services.

Then we shall give this matter our full attention. Although I have

to say, Minister, you have almost said it all.

There is another matter, however. While touching on the interception

of communications, there may be a serious matter, Minister, and I

respectfully request that you listen carefully to what I’m about to

say now. While the appointment of a designated judge to deal with

such applications rests with the Minister for Justice and

Constitutional Development, it does impact on your line function.

You should, at the very least, ensure the validity of such

1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 27 of 204)

The problem may be this, that such applications and the appointment

of a designated judge to deal with them are regulated by the

provisions of the Regulation of Interception of Communications and

Provision of Communication-related Information Act, Act 70 of 2002,

which commenced on 30 September 2005; except for sections 40 and

62(6), which deal with information to be kept regarding cellular

phones and sim cards.

In this Act a designated judge is defined as, and I quote:

  Any judge of a High Court discharged from active service under

  section 3(2) of the Judges Remunerations and Conditions of

  Employment Act, or any retired judge who is designated by the

  Minister to perform the functions of a designated judge for

  purposes of this Act.

This Act also repeals the Interception and Monitoring Prohibition

Act, Act 127 of 1992, with a proviso in section 62(2) that, and I


 Any judge whose designation in terms of the Interception and

 Monitoring Prohibition Act of 1992 to perform the functions of a

 judge for purposes of that Act is still in force on the fixed

 date, that is the date of commencement of this Act, must be

 regarded as having been so designated in terms of this Act.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 28 of 204)

Now, the current designated judge was appointed by your colleague

from Justice only in January 2006, after the Act had commenced. The

current incumbent is still on the Bench; he is an active judge,

neither discharged, nor retired.

There may be an acceptable explanation for this, which I would very

much like to hear. The point is that in terms of the Act this

sitting judge does not qualify to be appointed a designated judge.

I do not only have an administrative concern. If I’m correct, it

also brings into question the lawfulness or not of all approvals or

applications by that judge since the appointment. We may sit with a

lot more unlawful interceptions than just those I have referred to

above, but enough on that.

Every year, as custodians of our taxpayers’ money, this House

appropriates very large amounts to our various intelligence

structures, be it for defence intelligence, crime intelligence or

the intelligence structures such as NIA, SASS, the SA Security

Service, and others. And unlike other departments, Parliament’s

oversight is effectively limited to the Joint Standing Committee on

Intelligence. Often this debate is the only insight the rest of the

House can get on whether we are getting value for our money from our

1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 29 of 204)

The relevance of our own Spygate scandal to today’s debate lies

exactly in this, that for at least the past nine months this

overshadowed intelligence in this country in such a way that a

question mark hangs over the efficiency with which the so-called

normal activities, in particular in NIA and its connected agencies,

have been executed, if at all.

So let’s go back to the basics. Against this background, I will

again revisit the Minister’s 10 priorities to assess if there has

been any progress over the past year, since our last debate.

We have, of course, made no progress in bringing the Scorpions

within the legislative oversight framework with regard to

intelligence gathering. Whilst we await the President’s response to

the Khampepe commission’s report and conclusions, a year later they

are still gathering intelligence outside of oversight. I won’t even

speculate on what might happen there.

Hon Minister, your first priority score card: underspending; lack of

financial controls; failure to implement strategic plans;

nonadherence to policy frameworks; Auditor-General’s qualifications

and matters of emphasis; management letters ... Let me rather stop

here and just conclude: I cannot honestly say that any visible

progress has been made to achieve optimum utilisation of resources.

As is the case with the next five priorities, all are broad-based

1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 30 of 204)

President Mbeki remarked on 24 November 2005, when he addressed the

community on intelligence services day, and I quote:

  I must say that for many years now I have been concerned about the

  quality of a significant proportion of the intelligence

  information I have been provided with.

If the primary client can say this, then we are far from reaching

and realising these priorities, including the proper functioning of

Nicoc, the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee, and the

other co-ordinating bodies.

The establishment of a proper, functioning, national early-warning

centre was another urgent responsibility, as was the proposed

national counterterrorism centre. What progress was made on these,

and on Comsec and the OIC? Or did everything come to a standstill

when we started with the unlawful interception of communications

and, at least, unprocedural surveillance of politicians, amongst

others; and when we started conceiving and constructing conspiracies

to deal with or cause political instability?

As I continue, Minister, you will see how the current crisis has not

only paralysed your priorities, but has almost wiped them from the

intelligence radar screen.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 31 of 204)

Our border integrity is another priority. We desperately need proper

border security. The situation over the past year has only grown

worse. We again need to remark on unrestricted entry into South


Some of the problems at our borders were caused by the officials of

Mr Masetlha’s previous department, and last year I wished him

success in addressing these. But, alas, he is no more, and during

his short term as director-general he thought of more urgent things

to do. The result is that our borders are more open; illegal

immigrants are streaming in and killing, raping and robbing our

people. Minister that is a recipe for anarchy and political

instability, if you need more problems.

MISS, the Minimum Information Security Standards that all government

departments must adhere to, remains a big problem. I still fail to

understand the reluctance or inability of departments to comply with

these standards. Again, I ask for punitive sanctions to be taken

against noncompliers.

You also made the intelligence academy another priority. But we are

training cadets from other countries in Africa, whilst we cannot

address our own needs. There are serious problems, both in terms of

capacity and even financial controls.
1 JUNE 2006          PAGE 32 of 204)

Notwithstanding the qualities and dedication of the principal, who I

respect very much, I cannot but come to the conclusion that your

predecessor’s plans for the academy left you with another well-

intended disaster.

The SPEAKER: Order! There’s a point of order.

Mr H P CHAUKE: Will the hon Swart take a question on the issue of

illegal immigrants who are coming into the country?

The SPEAKER: Hon Swart, are you willing to take a question?

Adv P S SWART: Madam Speaker, if I can finish before my time has

expired, I’ll be more than willing to do so.

Minister, your last priority was our vetting capacity, an

insurmountable problem for our proper solutions. Now we need to

rethink the whole concept. Your ex-director-general, early in his

unfortunate term in office, came up with a revised strategy. He

failed, of course, whilst still busy with other matters of national

security importance, to make any progress on the fact that apart

from some few exceptions, we might as well consider vetting, a

foreign and unknown concept in this country.

With no proper border integrity or compliance with MISS, unvetted

officials and a lack of well-trained and skilled members in our
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 33 of 204)

services, the rest will all come to no avail. Two years into this

term we have made no progress on these pressing needs. Things seem

to be worsening. What an indictment on us all!

I do, however, want to welcome the Minister’s announcements today.

We need action and we need to move forward. But then we now have

task teams reviewing legislation, policy procedures and what have


We will come up with new strategies, plans and priorities to spend

the next two years on whilst that which is of utmost importance,

intelligence gathering of unquestionable quality and integrity to

ensure national security and pre-empt threats to it, will stay on


The recent events seriously curtailed our ability to function

properly. Both national security and democratic transparency have

been compromised, and only the future will tell if we have learnt

sufficient lessons to put proper safeguards in place to prevent this


Some consolation is that SASS functions reasonably well despite

undercapacity. Crime intelligence still manages to fight organised

crime and syndicates, with some very impressive successes. But I

have no idea what is going on in military intelligence. I think I
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 34 of 204)

will have to study all the management love letters to them from the


Allow me, lastly, to thank the Minister for his openness and

frankness here today. That is something I came to admire him for

since he took office: the willingness to be transparent in terms of

matters of intelligence. I do know that he’s been through a

difficult period in the past year, and he does have my sympathy.

I, however, need to remark on what’s going on and for basics in our

community, because it is seriously a case of us having been

paralysed over the past nine months by these things. We need to move

on. I trust that when we table our special report we will have a

proper debate on what took place. We can move forward and at least

see how far we can get.

So the best of luck with that, Minister, and to all the senior

members of the community. They are dedicated people in our

intelligence services. I want to thank their staff and their

officers, at all levels, for their efforts to make this country and

its people secure and safe from threats, be they criminal or


May your work in secret be so transparent that we achieve a properly

functioning and democratic South Africa.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 35 of 204)

Lastly, allow me to thank the members of the committee under the

able leadership of the hon Dr Cwele.

It has also been a very trying time for us over the past many

months, which also took our attention away from a lot of the basic

things. We intend to get back on track urgently, but the good remark

I can make about the JSCI is that we do function in a way that is

free of party politics, because we all have the security and the

safety of this country at heart. [Applause.]

We will continue to try to be as transparent as possible in our

oversight. Minister, I will leave after the function and look for

the magnifying glass you gave me last year, so I can read these

principles of professionalism, on which I must congratulate you.

Unfortunately, this is just a little object and we need to take it

to heart - in all the agencies and all the people involved - so that

we can really adhere to this. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms H C MGABADELI: Madam Speaker, hon Minister Ronnie Kasrils, hon

members, honourable guests from all walks of life, members of the

intelligence community, comrades, friends and patriots, we greet you

all and you are welcome.

This debate on this Budget Vote of 2006 is dedicated to the

following: the children of our universe in general and of our

country in particular on this day in celebration of International
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 36 of 204)

Children’s Day. Secondly, it is dedicated to the hands that are

responsible for their upbringing and their wellness in order for

them to be better human beings in the future - we dedicate this

debate to them.

Those hands include the hands of the nurses, of the midwives, of the

mothers, of the baby-sitters, of the crèche caregivers, of the

teachers, and also the hands of the intelligence officers whose

roles and responsibilities are to ensure that our children find

their land, the Republic of South Africa, and its people secure and

safe for themselves and for generations to come. Also included are

those who moulded our characters when we were still young. They

enabled some of the intelligence officers and civil servants,

including some of the MPs present here, to be what they are and to

have such distinguishing features and qualities.

These moulders of our characters are the following, among others:

the likes of the late Dr Sibusiso Nyembezi from Pietermaritzburg

whose books left an indelible mark on the nation while the nation

was still growing. Those books are Kunyenyeza Esikhotheni

[Whispering in the thick, long grass of all sorts]; Masihambisane

[Let us walk together]; Inkinsela YaseMgungundlovu [The tycoon of

Pietermatitzburg] and others.

An HON MEMBER: it's C C Ndebenkulu.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 37 of 204)

Ms H C MGABADELI: Yes, that character is called C C Ndebenkulu.

Thank you, colleague.

Secondly, it is also dedicated to the author of the book called A

Man For All Seasons. Unfortunately, this glorious book of mine,

together with other books, was taken away during those days of the

searching and taking away of books, which was tantamount to

stealing. [Laughter.]

It is also dedicated to a particular Mr van der Merwe, not our Mr

van der Merwe, but the author of the poem Muskietejag. It is

dedicated to the Bible with its parable on the harvesters who

planted one thing and found another, and regarding the parable of

the ant and the lazy person. Later, ladies and gentlemen, I will

tell you why I dedicate it to all these writers and to the Bible.

What are some of the critical factors that these forebears of our

moulders instilled in us? Some of these factors and characters are

the ability to advise, to foretell, to forewarn, to forecast, to

predict, to hypothesise, to prevent rather than to cure, to focus,


Yes, indeed, in their line of duty, as the mission statement and

legal mandate of the SA Secret Service says, which I am called upon

to look into, they do need these characteristics and these

qualities; these critical success factors.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 38 of 204)

What did the likes of the late Dr Sibusiso Nyembezi and all those

listed earlier do? Why do I liken this big day of intelligence

officers with the children? I will explain. Firstly, it is because

moulding is done better when one is eager to learn - Sibusiso

Nyembezi saw that – during the early stages of development and early


Secondly, a person who learns the most is the one who allows himself

or herself to be told, just like the child listening to the bedtime

stories - izinganekwane. Dr Nyembezi and others did that. We will

give you only a few cases from his books, because there is no time.

Case number one from Kunyenyeza Esikhotheni is a case that is based

on this book which was full of survival strategies. Together with

the survival strategies, he would give us Masihambisane, which was

for language, through short stories.

The first case is “imbizo of the carnivores” to discuss the

herbivores. This imbizo in Kunyenyeza Esikhotheni was the imbizo of

the carnivores, not all of them, but those with horns. The reason

why it wasn’t for all of them was because carnivores are highly

untrustworthy; they eat each other sometimes! [Laughter.]

Unogwaja [the hare] heard that it was their day. Because

kwakunesomiso [there was a drought] and the carnivores wanted to eat
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 39 of 204)

the herbivores. So nogwaja [the hare] told the herbivores, that

guys, kuyabheda [things are bad].

Then the herbivores said ...

... “Ngoba uzwile besihleba, hamba uyolalela laphayana.” Wathi,

“Ngizokwenze njani ngoba anginazimpondo nje?” Bathi kuye, “Hhayi,

hamba uthathe inhlaka. Thina sizohamba siyobheka izinyamazane

esezafa, sithathe izimpondo zazo sizifake lapha, bese uyosilalelela

wena.” (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[...“Because you heard them gossiping about us, just go there and

eavesdrop.” The hare then quipped, “What I am going to do, I do not

have horns?” And they said to him, “No, man, just go and get some

resin. We will then go and look for horns from dead bucks and put

them on you, and then you can go and eavesdrop for us.”]

Indeed it happened. I won’t go further, because I don’t have time.

But, at the end of the day, wozela unogwaja [the hare fell asleep].

In the middle of the conference ...

... zamsinda izimpondo kwase kucaca ukuthi akuzona ezakhe ngempela.

Kwathi lapho sezizowa wayibona ingozi, njengoba futhi vele phela

wayehlakaniphile. Wezwa sengathi ikhanda lakhe seliwa phansi.

Ngesikhathi ezwa lokho sabona esinye isilwane esidla inyama ukuthi
1 JUNE 2006            PAGE 40 of 204)

sengathi unogwaja nje loya. Wabaleka unogwaja. Wathi uma ebaleka

wafica umfula ugcwele. Wabona ukuthi ngeke akwazi ukuwela nakhu

unesikhumba esithambile.

Wahlakanipha ngokushesha wabona itshe elihle, kwazise wayebazi labo

abamjahayo ukuthi bathandani. Wazishintsha waba yileli tshe elihle

wase ema lapho babezodlula khona ababemjaha. Bathi uma

sebesesigodini, washizintsha waba yitshe.

Ngenkathi labo ababemjaha sebefika kulelo tshe, bafika balithanda

ngoba bethanda izinto ezinhle. Bathi, “Uma ngingakubona

okungunogwaja, ngingakushaya kanje.” Bajilikijela ngaphesheya

komfula. Washintsha unogwaja ngale komfula wathi, “Ehhe, waze

wangiweza phela”. Emva kwalokho wabaleka basale benxapha. Yiziphi

izifundo esizifundayo-ke lapha? [Uhleko.] (Translation of isiZulu

paragraphs follows.)

[... the horns became too heavy for him and it became clear that

they were not his originally. When the horns were about to fall off,

the hare immediately saw the danger looming, for he was very shrewd.

He felt like his head was going to collapse. When he realised that

his horns were about to fall off, one of the carnivores immediately

realised that the animal in question was a hare. The hare then ran

away. He then came to the river, which he found to be full. He

immediately realised that because of his soft skin he would not be

able to cross the river.
1 JUNE 2006          PAGE 41 of 204)

He thought quickly and saw a beautiful precious stone, and he knew

exactly what his chasers would like. He would turn himself into this

beautiful stone and wait where his chasers were to pass. When they

reached a shallow valley, he turned himself into a precious stone.

When his chasers reached that precious stone, they immediately fell

in love with it, for they loved beautiful things. They then said,

“If we find this bloody hare, we can throw this stone at it, like

this.” They threw the stone across the river. Immediately after

being thrown across the river the stone turned into a hare, and he

said, “There you are, you’ve made it possible for me to cross.” He

then ran away, and they were left standing, uttering clicks of

annoyance. What lessons do we therefore get from this?] [Laughter.]]

What are the lessons from this case in Kunyenyeza Esikhotheni? You

must know your terrain. You are in esikhotheni [wild thicket]

outside the country, watching for us and working for us. Know your

terrain.   Nature should be your classroom. Have your ears on the

ground, otherwise you will be eaten. Blend in with the environment

and with your surroundings; look like them. Be vigilant; sleep like

unogwaja [the hare], don’t sleep permanently. Use the opportunity at

your disposal. Know your enemy: what he or she likes.

Unogwaja wayazi ukuthi laba ababemjaha abacushwa ngezinto ezinhle.

[The hare knew that his chasers could not control their love of

beautiful things.]
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 42 of 204)

Do not give up until you have fulfilled your mandate. Unogwaja [the

hare] was sent to go to listen, so he had to take back the report.

In the veld out there, dog eats dog, regardless of their all sharing

the same terrain. If they were really carnivores, why did they not

smell the meat from unogwaja [the hare]? So, obviously, they were

not real carnivores. Kukhona nokwakungashayi kahle. [And there was

something fishy.]

Be able to distinguish between the real thing and the Fong Kong. Be

flexible; be creative.

The second case is of the jackal and the lion in the farmer’s kraal.

Again, it was dry and the farmer had a lot of goats, so the jackal

and the lion went ...

... beyofuna ukudla base bengena ocingweni. Ujakalase wayelokhu edla

bese eyozikala ukuthi usakwazi yini ukuphuma embotsheni. Ibhubesi

lona lethembe ukuthi liyisikhondlakhondla langaya ukuyozikala.

Njengoba ujakalase wayelokhu edla bese ehamba eyozikala, wathi uma

efika embotsheni okokugcina wabona ukuthi ngeke esaphuma ngoba

wayesenonile, esezidle kakhulu izimbuzi. Ibhubesi lasala kwathi

ujakalase wabaleka. Lafika iBhunu labhekana nebhubesi lase

lilidubula. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[... looking for food, and they went through an opening in the

fence. The jackal would eat a little and then go to the opening to
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 43 of 204)

see if he had not eaten too much, lest he should not be able to get

out through the opening in case of an emergency. The lion trusted

its powers and did not care about checking its stomach against the

opening. As the jackal constantly went to the opening, he realised

upon going there the last time that he was getting too full after

eating a lot of goats. The jackal ran away, and the lion was left

behind. When the farmer arrived, he faced the lion and shot it.]

The lessons from this are: Know yourself. Keep checking whether it

is still you, or have you added more bargains and the hole is

becoming too small. [Laughter.] [Applause.] Do not be greedy. You

may get stuck and end up being caught and lose everything.

Then we proceeded to high school. In high school we read Inkinsela

YaseMgungundlovu. Having acquired this knowledge from Kunyenyeza

Esikhotheni, we found Inkinsela YaseMgungundlovu in which a fraud, a

so-called filthy rich somebody went to the rural areas. In our case,

I would say he went to a Third World country, and displayed himself

as being so big. And, within the SASS legal mandate, we will request

that they must be very sharp about this, because C C Ndebenkulu was

discovered – I won’t dwell on it, time does not allow it.

However, the lessons learnt are the following. People from rural

areas and Third World countries, just like ourselves, need more of

SASS and its legal mandate than those from the First World. To be
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 44 of 204)

stupidly humble leads one to be the subject of outside tsotsis.

Please, we need vigilant guides like Themba Sithole ...

... wakulo muzi wakwaSithole lapho kwangenisa khona uNdebenkulu.

[... from the house where Ndebenkulu sought refuge.]

A young boy saved the whole community from being stripped of their

economic mode of survival by Ndebenkulu. Young people are not always


The fourth parable is from the Bible and is about the ant and its

energy - planning methods without any supervision. Those of you who

read the Bible would know this very well. What are the lessons? Hide

during the times of danger and be warm somewhere, but do not starve.

The other parable is the one of the gardeners who went to cultivate.

Uma bethi uma bayovuna, bafica kukhona enye into evelile okungeyona

abayitshala. Baya kuJesu beyobuza ukuthi yini lena? Wathi kubo

abayeke kukhule nokhula kungaze kusiphuke nalokhu esikutshalile.

Bayeka kwamila nokhula. Bahamba bayovuna base bekuthola okungesikho

okwabo. Bafowethu nodadewethu bakwa-Sass, anokubheka okuwukhula.

Ningakusiphuli kusekuncane ngoba kuzonimosha, kodwa nikubheke nje.

(Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 45 of 204)

[When they went to harvest, they found weeds amongst the wheat. They

went to ask Jesus what that was. He told them to leave it, lest they

root up the wheat with it. They let the wheat and the weeds grow

together. When they went to harvest, what was not wheat was

immediately exposed. So my brothers and sisters from the SASS, watch

out for the weed. Do not uproot it whilst it is still young; for it

may endanger you. Just watch it closely.]

The last story is about Sir Thomas More in A Man For All Seasons.

There was King Henry. Those who are from the Anglican Church will

know which King Henry – the first, the second, the third, or the

fourth. I don’t remember which King Henry because those people, who

did the raiding, stole my book. [Laughter.] This King Henry wanted

polygamy, and he argued that the church was bigger than the state.

Sir Thomas More was saying that it could not be. King Henry wanted

everybody to say, “Yes, I’ll take another woman”. Sir Thomas More

said ... [Interjections.]

... ayenzeki leyo nto [that will not happen]; let’s stick to this


Ngesikhathi esezomhenga esekhathele ukumncenga ... [The King was

tired of pleading with him, and was about to hang him ...]

... but he praised him. He said, though I don’t remember this very

well: “There are those who follow me just because I wear a crown,
1 JUNE 2006           PAGE 46 of 204)

there are those who follow me because they follow any object that

moves, and there’s you, Sir Thomas More.”

Wamshiya kanjalo wase emlengisa. U-Van der Merwe-ke yini inkinga

ayenza? U-Van der Merwe wayengamfundanga uKunyenyeza Esikhotheni,

wayengafunde lutho. Wabanga umsindo ebangela umiyane engakasondeli

nakuye futhi engakamenzi lutho. Lowo miyane wawutshela ukuthi

uzowushaya kanjani, ewubiza ngento ehluphayo. Wambuka nje umiyane

wathi ngeke aze awuthole. Wathi esathi uzowushaya, wathi umiyane,

“Uhlale ukwenza.” Wasuka wabaleka. [Uhleko.] (Translation of isiZulu

paragraph follows.)

[He left him like that and hanged him. And then, what wrong did Van

der Merwe commit? Van der Merwe did not learn from the book named

Kunyenyeza Esikhotheni. He had in fact learnt nothing. He made a lot

of noise about the mosquito before it even came close to him. He

told the poor mosquito how he was going to beat it up, calling it a

useless nuisance. The mosquito simply looked at him and it knew he

would never get hold of it. When he was about to beat it up the

mosquito simply said, “Not me”, and flew away.] [Laughter.]]

Don’t be loud and don’t be noisy before you do something. Let us, as

the ANC, support this budget for the intelligence officers to do the

following: to be able to talent-spot well, nurture the talent you

spotted, train people in line with what the Constitution of the
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 47 of 204)

country and your mission and vision statement are saying. We thank

you. [Applause.]

Mnu M J BHENGU: Somlomo, angibonge ukuthi ngithole leli thuba.

Angiqale ngibongele umfowethu uManzini, ongene esikhundleni sokuthi

abe ngumphathi woMnyango. UManzini uyazazi izinkinga okufanele

abhekane nazo.

Angiqale ngokuthi i-IFP iyasemukela lesi sabelo sezimali bese ngisho

nokuthi kunzima Ngqongqoshe ukuthi umuntu kulesi sikhathi esikusona

njengamanje angakhulumi ngalesi sehlo ubukhuluma ngaso esenzeke kwi-

National Intelligence Agency.

Angikusho ukuthi ukukhuluma ngalezi zehlakalo akusiyona neze

injabulo kithi naseqenjini lami kodwa kungukuhlupheka ngoba siyazi

ukuthi lezi zinto ngesinye isikhathi sibuye sikhohlwe ukuthi zisho

impilo nokufa kwethu.

Sikhuluma lokhu ngoba siyazi ukuthi akuyona into elula ukuphatha

izwe. Angikusho futhi Ngqongqoshe ukuthi ngijabulile ukuthi kukhona

izinto ezintsha othe uzoziveza ezinhle futhi eziyinqubekela phambili

esizozibona uma seziqhamuka. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs


[Mr M J BHENGU: Chairperson, thank you for this opportunity. Let me

start by congratulating my brother Manzini, who was appointed as the
1 JUNE 2006            PAGE 48 of 204)

director of the department. Manzini knows the problems that should

be dealt with.

Let me start by saying that the IFP supports the budget, and let me

also say that it is difficult, Minister, in the current situation

not to comment on the incident which took place in the National

Intelligence Agency.

Let me say that talking about these incidents is no joy at all for

my party and for us; it is painful because we know that sometimes we

forget that these are matters of life and death.

We say this because we know that it is not easy to lead the country.

Minister, I must also say I am very happy that you promised new,

beautiful things to show which developments we will see as they


Having said that, I must say that the current crisis in the National

Intelligence Agency or NIA, challenges us all to grapple with a host

of higher-level policy questions. What has recently happened within

NIA, regarding the issue of the much talked about emails, will

certainly go down in the annals of our country’s intelligence


Just over a decade after the advent of our fledgling democracy, we

find ourselves having to engage in a critical debate around the
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 49 of 204)

sensitive issues of intelligence. What happened was engrossing and

deeply troubling. It was an incident of despair that resulted in an

epoch of disillusionment, and the citizens of this country were left

confused and feeling insecure.

It was troubling and engrossing in many ways, particularly because

it threatened the national security of our country, our national

security doctrine which aims, among other things, at promoting a

society that is free of violence and instability, and that must

engender a sense of respect for the rule of law and human life. This

is the philosophy that should guide our intelligence community.

These are matters, as I have said, of life and death, and they

challenge us to be frank and be very honest. Where does the problem

lie here? Does it lie with the NIA or somewhere else? Whatever the

case may be, the fact of the matter is that the officials of the NIA

must not ever engage themselves in party politics.

It is unfortunate that the internal conflicts of the ruling party

resulted in the NIA and its intelligence structures being affected.

The authenticity or falsity of the emails still remains a mystery.

These intelligence upheavals are an indication that we are on a

learning curve, so we need to expect such things to happen. We have

seen such things happening in countries such as Israel and in the

1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 50 of 204)

It is the seriousness of these matters that have forced our State

President, who is the principal client of NIA, to lament and say:

  You cannot allow any compromise about the quality of intelligence

  and its truthfulness, you can’t afford a situation where people

  manufacture intelligence and lie in order to please the President.

Clearly, this is a lament that the Minister of Intelligence and the

entire intelligence community should heed as a warning and take some

drastic steps to correct; because it is a lament that comes from the

entire community of South Africa.

The challenge therefore, is: How does the NIA address the question

of producing quality intelligence? This is not only demanded by the

President, but it is also demanded by every South African citizen.

The important lesson we need to learn from all of this is that if

the party intervenes in everything, it will not help the people to

understand the importance of the rule of law.

This is a question between the party and the government. Political

leaders need to remember that our intelligence services are a

national asset, mandated to help ensure the security and the

wellbeing of all the people.

As the Minister pointed out before, the intelligence services must

therefore be politically nonpartisan, and they may not carry out
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 51 of 204)

operations that are influenced to undermine, promote or influence

any political party, faction or organisation at the expense of


Intelligence services are expected to uphold the important values of

integrity, objectivity and credibility. In short, they must put

aside their personal views in the interests of the country as a

whole. In this respect, intelligence should enhance national

security and protect and promote the interests of the state and the

wellbeing of its citizens.

Perhaps, it is time that we revisit the code of conduct for

intelligence workers. I have always found that there is a lot that

they can get out of the code of conduct. I am also happy that the

Minister is doing something in this regard to correct all that has


Mr Minister, you know very well, perhaps better than any one of us

here, that conventionally the intelligence business is generally

confined to hushed whispers. I must say that I am one of the people

who was actually confused to see that about 50% of the information

concerning the issue of emails and the IG’s report, was leaked to

the press, even before it was submitted and discussed by the JSCI. I

support the Bill. [Time expired.]
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 52 of 204)

Mr L T LANDERS: Chairperson, on this International Day of the Child,

we dedicate this debate to all those courageous women, mothers and

sisters, who 50 years ago, marched to the Union Buildings in

Pretoria. One of the objectives of that historic march was the

attainment of freedom for their children. Today we enjoy that

freedom and civil liberty.

That hard-won civil liberty for which many of our iconic and

courageous leaders like Helen Khuzwayo, O R Tambo, Nelson Mandela

and Walter Sisulu, amongst others, were willing and prepared to

sacrifice their lives, must be fiercely protected and defended.

Section 14 of our Constitution provides that, and I quote: “Everyone

has the right to privacy, which includes the right not to have the

privacy of their communications infringed.”

Any attempt, therefore, to infringe on this right, any action which

seeks to contravene this right, must be condemned in the strongest

possible terms. I make this point not only in the context of the

highly controversial e-mails, but also in relation to the unlawful

loading of telephone numbers belonging to private citizens and

lawful political organisations onto the National Communications

Centre’s system. The hon Minister has referred to this extensively

and it will form a large part of my address to this House.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 53 of 204)

The latter part of 2005 saw the National Intelligence Agency, NIA,

plummet to its lowest point yet. Abuses committed by some of its

most senior members were exposed, which culminated in extensive

investigations by the Inspector-General for Intelligence Services.

Such events, in which members of the NIA were directly or indirectly

involved, have led me to the view – as they have the hon Minister –

that South Africa needs a comprehensive review of the underlying

principles that underpin our national security doctrine and our

intelligence dispensation. And in that regard, hon Minister, we

welcome the plans that you’ve put forward in order to address these


And this includes the comprehensive review of the White Paper on

Intelligence, as well as the attendant oversight structures and the

relevant checks and balances, to ensure that they are still

appropriate and adequate. Perhaps at this point it is appropriate in

this debate briefly to revisit the essential provisions of the White

Paper, in order to put the recent abuses into the proper context.

One of the goals of the above-mentioned White Paper which first saw

the light of day in 1995, was the creation of an effective,

integrated and responsive intelligence dispensation that serves our

Constitution and the government of the day, through the timeous

provision of relevant, credible and reliable intelligence. This

should be in line with the new, nonracial democratic order in which
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 54 of 204)

much weight is given to the rights of the individual, as set out in

the Chapter on Human Rights in our Constitution.

The mission of the intelligence community, therefore, is to provide

evaluated information with the following responsibilities in mind:

firstly, the safeguarding of our Constitution and secondly, the

upholding of the individual rights enunciated in our Constitution.

Recent events that culminated in the abuses referred to by our

Minister have clearly demonstrated that we have drifted way off

course in relation to that stated mission.

A significant provision in the White Paper is a code of conduct for

members of the NIA and the intelligence community in general. This

code of conduct emanates from the Transitional Executive Council’s

Subcouncil on Intelligence, of which I had the privilege and honour

to be a member.

This code of conduct makes provision for, amongst other things, all

members of our intelligence services to -

  Openly declare their loyalty to the Republic of South Africa, our

  Constitution and the laws of the country. Respect the norms,

  values and principles in our democratic society, including the

  basic human rights of individuals. Strive, in the execution of

  their duties, to attain the highest degree of objectivity,
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 55 of 204)

  integrity and professionalism. Commit themselves to the promotion

  of mutual trust between policymakers (that is our President and

  his Cabinet) and professional intelligence workers, as well as co-

  operation with all other members of the intelligence community.

One of the most important principles set out in the White Paper is

that of the political neutrality of our intelligence services. A

national intelligence agency – we’ve said this before and we repeat

it today - is a national asset and shall, therefore, be politically

nonpartisan. It goes on to say, and I quote:

  No intelligence or security service or organisation shall be

  allowed to carry out any operations or activities that are

  intended to undermine, promote or influence any South African

  political party or organisation at the expense of another, by

  means of any Acts, or by means of disinformation.

By virtue of his position as head of state, our President of South

Africa is the chief client, or if you like, the commander in chief

of all the country’s intelligence agencies. When the chief client

expresses his concern at the quality of intelligence provided to him

by our intelligence services, then it is time for us all not just to

express grave concern; it is time to take stock.

We concur wholeheartedly with his view when he said at the

intelligence services day on 24 November 2005, and I quote:
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 56 of 204)

  The intelligence services of our country have come a long way, as

  has done our young democracy. Hard and dedicated work has resulted

  in many important breakthroughs, which made it possible for us all

  to confront threats to our society and thereby strengthen our


And then he went on to make the startling point about the quality of

the intelligence he has been receiving, to which other hon members,

including the Minister, have already alluded to. This statement by

the chief client of our intelligence services is reason for us all

to pause and take stock.

The Intelligence Services Oversight Act places a clear obligation on

all members of these services to co-operate with the inspector-

general on any investigation he conducts. Refusing to do so is a

punishable offence. It is disappointing, to say the least, to be

informed that certain senior members of the NIA blatantly refused to

do so. We want to say that such members must face the full might of

the law.

When the telephone numbers of private individuals are loaded onto a

powerful resource like our national communication centre, this shows

clear intent, in my view, to intercept their private communications

in contravention of the law and in contravention of all the tenets

of our democratic dispensation.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 57 of 204)

This action took us all back to those dark, fearful days, when one

was not sure just who one’s friends were, or who one could trust.

Nothing that is happening in South Africa’s body politic today can

justify this action. So, we agree with our President when he said,

and I quote:

  I would like to make it clear to all of us that any action taken

  by the intelligence services designed deliberately to interfere

  with the normal political processes of parties or organisations

  that are engaged in lawful activities, are expressly forbidden.

To this end, therefore, we add to the President’s statement by

saying that anyone and everyone responsible for these actions must

be brought to book. We make this demand, because it is legally and

morally the correct thing to do; because it is expected of us as

Parliament’s oversight body, but we do so also because these abuses

have had a profoundly negative and demoralising effect on the morale

of members of the intelligence community.

What this means is that years of team-building has been destroyed

and will require the collective leadership skills of the top

management, particularly of the NIA, to help bring this organisation

to the healthy level of proficiency and effectiveness it once

1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 58 of 204)

It is commendable, therefore, that the NIA have already initiated a

review of the agency’s operational policies and procedures and that

a process is under way to reconceptualise the concept of “political

intelligence”. Whilst the committee welcomes these steps, we will

however be closely monitoring the progress of these new measures.

Chairperson, we welcome the Minister’s statement with regard to the

national communication centre and his promise of a tighter rein and

control and we look forward to engaging with the Minister and the

services on the provision of the task team’s report.

Just one comment to the hon Paul Swart, with regard to Minimum

Information Security Standards, MISS: It is my personal view that it

is the responsibility of the Joint Standing Committee on

Intelligence to hold those departments and other state-owned

entities to account when they fail to comply. Chairperson, we

support this budget. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, hon Minister, firstly, on a lighter note,

the closest I have come to being part of the intelligence community

is with my medical aid number, which begins with the numbers 007.


I trust that I’ll be able to make an intelligent contribution to the

debate today, not being privy to much of the activities of the joint

standing committee. I first want to commend the various components
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 59 of 204)

of our intelligence services for the good work they have performed

both inside and outside the Republic, often at great personal risk

and sacrifice, and obviously subject to severe budgetary

constraints. The ACDP salutes you.

Hon Minister, you quite correctly focused much of your speech on the

recent scandals in the NIA. You spoke very frankly and used strong

language such as ``skulduggery’’, ``rogues’’, etc. The ACDP agrees

that the scandalous abuse of power has resulted in what you said is

a sacred trust being damaged.

The ACDP welcomes the initiatives you have announced to guard the

guards, and will be closely monitoring, as far as we are able, the

efficiency of such initiatives, particularly regarding political

intelligence mandates. We must ensure that our intelligence services

are operating lawfully and within the confines of the Constitution

at all times.

The ACDP agrees that control measures alone do not suffice. We need

sound moral values and a sound work ethic, as you pointed out. What

we need is character and conscience. The guards must guard


Let us take a leaf from the value statement of the Federal Bureau of

Investigation, FBI; not from their intelligence-gathering
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 60 of 204)

capabilities, but from their motto, ``FBI’’, standing for fidelity,

bravery and integrity.

Having dealt with the scandal, the stark statement in the 2006

budget estimates speaks volumes as to the achievements of the

intelligences services. I just want to quote from it. It says: “In

2004-05, many international and domestic terrorist cells were

infiltrated.” This is remarkable, speaks volumes and must be


 This division also focuses on criminal investigations involving

 drugs, trafficking of firearms, etc. I want to conclude by saying

 that whilst we commend our intelligence services on their

 achievements, the question that arises is: Are they succeeding in

 the crime intelligence aspect in the ongoing fight against crime?

 Thank you. [Time expired.]

Mr I VADI: Chairperson, an interesting article on the Central

Intelligence Agency in last weekend’s edition of the New York Times

raised a profound question. It asked whether or not the CIA would

continue to be the principal source of strategic intelligence

analysis in the United States. It pointed out that CIA analysts, led

by instant news spawned by media networks such as CNN, are producing

instant analysis and that has suffocated and stifled thoughtful

strategic analysis. What appears to underlie this weakness in the
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 61 of 204)

CIA is the nature of intelligence training since the emergence of

global electronic media, coinciding with the end of the Cold War.

The bitter struggles over the future of the CIA after the disastrous

intelligence failure of 9/11 foretell what might become our greatest

challenge over the next few years. That challenge can be reduced to

a single question: What kind of intelligence training is required so

that our intelligence services offer the best possible intelligence

analysis to our government in order to advance our national

interests and to secure our people? I suppose a related question is

whether or not the SA National Academy of Intelligence, Sanai, is

discharging its mandate in providing adequate training to our

intelligence personnel.

Our national academy was formally established in February 2003. It

is three years old. Its vision is the creation of an excellent

intelligence training, development and research institution that

contributes to the professional development of our intelligence

officers. Its mission is to develop a cadreship of loyal, competent

and knowledgeable intelligence professionals who are capable of and

committed to serving our country and the African continent.

The academy has three key objectives: Firstly, to present continuous

training to our intelligence officers so as to ensure that their

knowledge, skills and capacity are on par with the ever-changing

global environment; secondly, to produce independent, relevant and
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 62 of 204)

quality research on the dynamics and changes within the

international and domestic intelligence communities; and finally, to

design and develop a relevant curriculum aimed at the professional

growth of our intelligence officers.

After three years of existence, it might be appropriate for us to

evaluate the performance of Sanai. Is it realising its mission and

achieving its objectives? Is it on track in fulfilling its key


In its short lifespan, Sanai has developed into a viable

intelligence training institution. Its location on the scenic

outskirts of Mafikeng is ideal for its cadre training programme. It

offers perfect facilities for training programmes for foreign

intelligence services, notably from the African continent.

Sanai has some really dedicated and experienced intelligence

trainers who have sacrificed the joys and comforts of living in a

metropolitan city. They have relocated themselves and their families

to work in relative isolation at the academy. We must express our

appreciation to them for their dedication and commitment.

Sanai’s intelligence research institute has launched an academic

journal called Intelligence Perspective. To date, it has published

several issues dealing with topics such as current intelligence,

early warning intelligence, lawful interception of
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 63 of 204)

telecommunications, and the similarities and differences between

intelligence analysis and academic research.

The institute has also published a thought-provoking book on the

Hefer Commission of Inquiry, drawing out lessons for our

intelligence services on the tensions between secrecy and

transparency in a democracy. These are all noteworthy achievements

for a new intelligence institution such as Sanai. What then are the

key challenges confronting Sanai?

Firstly, Sanai must be led by a united and cohesive management. Its

leadership must share a common vision and have a passion for

learning, teaching and training, and it must provide effective

leadership to a new and growing institution. The management must

also ensure that Sanai has developed the capacity for proper

financial administration and control.

Secondly, management must ensure that Sanai’s staffing is skewed in

favour of its core function, namely teaching and training.

Currently, it does seem that it has too many noncore staff members,

and possibly a top-heavy management structure with too few actual

trainers. So, a more considered balance needs to be struck between

management and actual trainers employed at the institution.

Thirdly, Sanai’s distance from our intelligence headquarters is not

conducive to line function training. It is located too far from its
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 64 of 204)

main client base. Owing to its distant location, it appears that not

many subject matter specialists and best-practice experts want to

travel all the way to assist with training. This tends to limit the

potential for the effective contribution to training programmes from

highly experienced members working in line functions.

A rigid adherence to the view that all training must be done at

Sanai will not help to resolve this difficulty. A more pragmatic and

flexible approach is necessary. Sanai will have to consider offering

programmes at multiple sites of learning. So, while certain core

programmes may be offered at Sanai, others will have to be delivered

closer to where people actually work, either at headquarters or in

the provinces.

Fourthly, the academy itself is not suitable for conducting

practical training based on real-life situations. Trainees,

particularly new recruits, need to gain practical training in large

cosmopolitan cities so that they get a hands-on feel of operational

activities and intelligence trade craft.

While I do not have an immediate solution to offer in this regard, I

do believe that it is a matter that requires further attention by

the Sanai staff. In general, this also implies that an appropriate

balance must be struck between theoretical development and mastering

the operational aspects of intelligence activity.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 65 of 204)

Finally, Sanai must urgently develop its capacity to train

intelligence officers in cyber forensics, border intelligence and

counter-terrorism, as crimes related to these pose a serious threat

to our national security. While the academy’s own capacity is being

developed in these fields, it might consider forging partnerships

with academic institutions and other service providers with

expertise in these fields of study. I welcome the Minister’s

proposals around introducing new elements to the curriculum to

enhance professional accountability and professional integrity.

An intelligence organisation’s capacity to provide policy-relevant

and unique intelligence to the national client can only be achieved

when intelligence officers are properly trained and equipped with

the necessary skills and knowledge. Quality training thus plays a

central role in ensuring that our intelligence services are made up

of officers who correctly know, understand and interpret the

political and security needs of our country and the African

continent, and who offer the best policy advice to our government.

While Sanai has laid a strong foundation for this, much more work

needs to be done. For that to happen Sanai needs more money and,

therefore, the ANC supports this budget. [Applause.]

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Voorsitter, ek wil begin deur vir die agb

Minister te sê die VF Plus steun sy benadering dat, wat

Intelligensie betref, daar meer deursigtigheid moet kom. Die dae is
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 66 of 204)

lankal verby toe nasionale intelligensie-agentskappe honderde agente

wêreldwyd moes ontplooi om inligting te bekom.

Ons leef in die tyd van tegnologiese ontwikkeling, van die media en

van inligting. Enigeen van ons kan vandag gaan en ’n presiese, mooi

foto kry van die Uniegebou, ons kan ’n mooi uitleg en foto kry van

die Parlement. Ons kan deur die wêreld reis en ons kan volledige

foto’s en al die nodige inligting bekom van bakens wat in die

verlede altyd bekendgestaan het as nasionale strategiese punte.

Ons kan vandag televisie kyk, en as ons CNN, Sky News of wat ook al

kyk, sal ons verbaas wees om te sien watter inligting ons kan kry om

te sien wat gebeur in ander lande en watter konflik daar plaasvind.

Wat ek hiermee vir u sê, is dat die moderne tegnologie van so ’n

aard is dat ons meer deursigtig kan wees ten opsigte van

intelligensie in Suid-Afrika.

Daarom steun ons hierdie standpunt van die agb Minister dat daardie

openheid moet kom, en ek dink die eerste stap wat die agb Minister,

en ook die Gesamentlike Staande Komitee oor Intelligensie, kan doen,

is om baie van hulle vergaderings oop te stel vir die media, sodat

die media kan kom insit by die komitee, daar waar al die politieke

partye verteenwoordig is, en kan sien wat bespreek word en insae kan

kry in die werking van die Gesamentlike Staande Komitee oor

1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 67 of 204)

Ek kom by ’n ander aspek en dit is al die probleme wat daar tans in

die intelligensiegemeenskap is. Soos ons almal weet, is dit ’n

kwessie van tyd, dan sal elke individu wat ’n selfoon het daardie

selfoon moet laat registreer. As hy van daardie selfoon ontslae wil

raak, sal daar kennis gegee moet word na wie toe dit gaan,


Die publiek daar buite wil die vertroue hê dat hulle privaatheid

gerespekteer gaan word. Hulle wil die vertroue hê dat hulle private

gesprekke nie afgeluister sal word nie. As ons gaan kyk wat onlangs

in Intelligensie gebeur het, sien ons dat van die senior amptenare -

inteendeel, die top-amptenare – betrokke was by afluistering en het

sekere disinformasie rondgestuur, nie vir die beveiliging van ons

land nie, maar vir hul eie persoonlike motiewe.

Dan is die vraag: watter vertroue het die publiek daar buite dat hul

private gesprekke nie ook vir eie private doeleindes en motiewe

gebruik gaan word nie? Dit is die taak van die Minister – dit is op

u skouers, agb Minister – om te verseker dat die publiek die

vertroue kan hê dat hulle privaatheid gerespekteer gaan word. Dit is

’n groot taak op u skouers, maar ek wil u verseker die publiek, en

ons almal, hou u dop om te sien of u daardie vertroue gaan herstel.

Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, I want to start by saying to the

hon Minister that the FF Plus supports his approach that, as far as
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 68 of 204)

Intelligence is concerned, there should be more transparency. The

days are long gone when the national intelligence agencies had to

deploy hundreds of agents worldwide to gather information.

We are living in times of technological development, of the media

and of information. Any one of us can go today and get a precise,

good photograph of the Union Buildings, we can get a good lay-out

and photograph of Parliament. We can travel through the world and

can obtain detailed photographs and all the necessary information on

landmarks, which, in the past, were always known as national

strategic points.

Today we can watch television, and if we watch CNN, Sky News or

whatever, we will be surprised to see what information we can obtain

to see what is happening in other countries and what conflicts are

taking place there. What I am trying to say is that modern

technology is of such a nature that we can be more transparent in

respect of intelligence in South Africa.

For that reason we support this standpoint of the hon Minister that

that transparency must come, and I think the first step that the hon

Minister, and also the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, can

take is to make many of their meetings accessible to the media, so

that the media can come and sit with the committee, where all the

political parties are represented, and can see what is being
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 69 of 204)

discussed and get an idea of the workings of the Joint Standing

Committee on Intelligence.

I want to discuss another aspect, and that is all the problems at

present being encountered in the Intelligence community. As we all

know, it is a question of time, then every individual who has a

cellphone will have to register that cellphone. If he wants to get

rid of that cellphone, he will have to give information on the

person to whom that cellphone is going, etc.

The public out there want to be confident that their privacy will be

respected. They want to believe that their private conversations

will not be tapped. If we look at what happened in Intelligence

recently, we see that some of the senior officials – in fact, the

top officials – were responsible for phone-tapping and the

distribution of certain disinformation, not for the safeguarding of

our country, but for their own personal motives.

The question then is: What faith does the public out there have that

their personal conversations will not also be used for private

purposes and motives? It is the task of the Minister – it rests on

your shoulders, hon Minister – to ensure that the public can have

the faith that their privacy will be respected. An enormous task is

resting on your shoulders, but I want to assure you that the public,

and all of us, are watching you to see if you are going to restore

that faith. I thank you.]
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 70 of 204)

Mnr S ABRAM: Agb Voorsitter, ek wil net vir die agb lid Groenewald

sê dat ek juis later daaroor gaan praat in my toespraak, en wel oor

die publiek en hoe hulle tans voel. Ek wil hom ook herinner dat hy

hier gepraat het van deursigtigheid. Ek wil my graag wend tot die

agb lid Swart, by wie deursigtigheid ernstig ontbreek het. Die agb

lid het hier gepraat van die “aftermath” van sy toespraak verlede

jaar. En ek wil hom graag herinner aan ’n ander “aftermath” en dit

is toe mnre Bush en Blair met hul nagemaakte intelligensie en

voorwendsels, Irak binnegeval het en hoe die agb Swart se party

ondersteunend was van daardie inval. Hulle het daardie verwronge

perd opgesaal en saam met die ander lande wat die inval ondersteun

het, gesê dat Saddam Hussein in die bek geruk moet word.

Nou vier jaar later, na die dood van duisende burgerlikes,

insluitende kinders in hierdie week waarin ons Internasionale

Kinderdag vier, en die dood van jong soldate en ’n vernietigde land

moet daardie leiers nou eerloos, broekloos, tenkloos en wapenloos,

gewetenloos - en eersdaags Downingstraat 10-loos en Wit Huis-loos -

met bebloede hande Irak verlaat. [Applous.]

Daar is ’n ander gevaarlike neiging in die toespraak van die agb lid

Swart, waar hy en sy party ... [Tussenwerpsels.] Ek wil net graag

vir juf Smuts sê: sy hou daarvan om hier te kekkel; sy sal tuis voel

op my plaaswerf met al my geveerde gaste. [Applous.] Dit is waar dat

hulle glo en dit het die agb lid Swart nou gesê ... (Translation of

Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 71 of 204)

[Mr S ABRAM: Hon Chairperson, I just want to say to the hon

Groenewald that I shall be discussing the matter of public opinion

later on in my speech. I also want to remind him that he spoke here

about transparency. I would like to turn to the hon member Swart, in

whose case transparency was sadly lacking. The hon member spoke here

about the “aftermath” of his speech last year. And I would like to

remind him of another “aftermath”, namely that when Messrs Bush and

Blair invaded Iraq with their false intelligence and pretexts, the

hon Swart and his party were supportive of that invasion. They

saddled that misshapen horse and, together with the other countries

who supported the invasion, said that Saddam Hussein had to be

forced into submission.

Now, four years later, after the death of thousands of civilians,

including children, during this week in which we are celebrating

International Children’s Day, and the death of young soldiers and a

country destroyed, those leaders will have to leave Iraq with

bloodied hands, devoid of honour or conscience, without uniforms,

tanks or weapons, and soon without the support of 10 Downing Street

and the White House. [Applause.]

There is another dangerous tendency in the hon member Swart’s

speech, where he and his party ... I just want to say to Miss Smuts:

She likes cackling here; she will feel at home in my farmyard with

all my feathered guests. [Applause.] It is true that they believe

and the hon member Swart has said this now ... ]
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 72 of 204)

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairperson, one has to be somewhat amazed at the

speech of the hon Abram. I am rising on a point of order: The

remarks that he made to Ms Smuts and about Ms Smuts certainly border

on foul language. And I would suggest that they are very much


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order! Hon member, may I

appeal to you that if you made some unparliamentary remarks that you

withdraw them and continue with your speech?

Mr S ABRAM: Hon Chair, what I said is general talk in Afrikaans.

Ons kekkel en kraai, en so aan. [We cackle and crow, and so on.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman that is absolutely unacceptable.

Mr S ABRAM: We always call the hon member Van Niekerk, “Kraai” and

that doesn’t mean that he is crowing! [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Hon Ellis, please take your

seat. I’ll study the Hansard and I will give a report.

Mnr S ABRAM: Waar die agb lid Swart sê dat Afrikane uit ander dele

van die kontinent - en hy sê in Engels ... [When the hon Swart says

that Africans from other parts of the continent, and he says in

English that ...]
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 73 of 204)

... cross our borders to rape, rob and murder our people ...

...hierdie woorde is xenofobies, en “rassisme” en “xenofobie” is

twee woorde wat onparlementêr verklaar is in hierdie agb Raad. Ek

vra u graag dat u na die Hansard sal kyk en ’n beslissing daaroor op

’n latere stadium sal gee. My tyd is kort.

Aangesien daar in die jongste tyd veel gesê, geskryf en bespiegel is

oor die onlangse gebeure en doen en late in ons Nasionale

Intelligensiedienste, het ek dit gerade geag om hierdie geleentheid

te gebruik om die vrese van die breë burgery – en ek is jammer die

agb lid Groenewald is nou nie meer hier nie – te besweer en sodoende

om hulle gerus te stel. Die ANC-regering het sedert sy

bewindsoorname 12 jaar gelede, ver gevorder om uiting te gee aan

deursigtigheid en dit wat in ons Vryheidsmanifes staan. (Translation

of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[...these words are xenophobic, and “racism” and “xenophobia” are

two words which have been declared unparliamentary in this august

House. I would like to ask you to peruse Hansard and give a ruling

in this regard at a later date. My time is limited.

Since a lot has been said, written and speculated of late about the

recent happenings in our National Intelligence Service, I thought it

wise to avail myself of this opportunity to allay the fears of the

general public – and I am sorry that the hon member Groenewald is
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 74 of 204)

not here any more – and, in so doing, reassure them. Since the ANC

came into power 12 years ago it has done a lot to promote

transparency and the principles contained in our Freedom Charter.]

It states: “There shall be work and security. There shall be houses,

security and comfort for all.”

I now want to ask the question: what is intelligence? In terms of

the Intelligence Services Oversight Act, the definition is that -

 Intelligence means the process of gathering, evaluation,

 correlation and interpretation of security information, including

 activities related thereto as performed by the Services.

Sir, if you put my brains on a scale, and yours, mine will outweigh

yours a hundred times. [Laughter.] You must not think that because

you are in the DA and had the privileges of studying and all the

doors of learning were open to you, that you are in any way superior

to us seated on this side. [Applause.] And you, you will never

become an honorary white. Do whatever you want.

Jy kan ook kekkel soveel soos jy wil. [You may also cackle as much

as you wish.]

What is oversight? Oversight is the process and means by which

accountable persons are called upon to account. What is
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 75 of 204)

accountability? It is an obligation to answer to someone with

authority for the execution of one’s assigned responsibilities; or

accountability is an obligation to demonstrate and take

responsibility for performance against agreed standards.

Intelligence, therefore, is vital to a stable democracy and

includes, inter alia, military, crime, national and domestic,

departmental and economic intelligence. Intelligence can also be a

threat to democracy, if services do not act in accordance with the

law and most importantly, if services are not subjected to robust

and transparent civilian oversight by Parliament.

Section 199, subsection 8 of the Constitution provides as follows:

 To give effect to the principles of transparency and

 accountability, multiparty Parliamentary committees must have

 oversight of all security services in a manner determined by

 national legislation or the rules and orders of Parliament.

This section was given effect to by the promulgation of the

Intelligence Services Oversight Act, Act No 40, which provided for

the establishment of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence by

the President, the oversight mechanisms and procedures governing

reporting by the JSCI to Parliament and the appointment of

inspectors-general in respect of each service.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 76 of 204)

It is therefore necessary in order to allay the fears of the broad

civilian population, that we look at the Provision of the Regulation

of Interception of Communications and Provision of Communication-

Related Information Act, Act No 70 of 2002, which has a range of

provisions under chapter 3 thereof, dealing with governing


The complex world in which we live, sir, with its advanced digital

technology networks poses equally complex challenges. The Act

provides for the creation of an office for interception centres and

further provides for an applicant who, inter alia, means a member as

defined in section 1 of the Intelligence Services Act, if the member

concerned obtained in writing the approval in advance of another

member of the agency or the service, as the case may be, holding a

post of at least general manager, to apply to a designated judge,

for the issuing of an interception direction. Such applications must

be in written form but the Act also provides for an application to

be made orally by the applicant, if he or she is of the opinion that

it is not reasonably practicable, having regard to the urgency of

the case or the existence of exceptional circumstances, to do so in


The applicant has to provide the designated judge with exhaustive

information and the designated judge may call for further

information to enable him or her to apply his or her mind thoroughly

before approving or rejecting the application. When approving
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 77 of 204)

applications, the designated judge may specify conditions or

restrictions relating to the interception of communications

authorised therein and permission may be issued for a period not

exceeding three months at a time.

Finally, members of the public, inter alia, who are aggrieved by any

alleged transgressions by any of the services can access the Office

of the Inspector-General, whose functions are prescribed in the

Intelligence Services Oversight Act, Act No 40 of 1994. Amongst

those functions are: to monitor compliance with the Constitution,

applicable laws and policies on intelligence, and also, to receive

and investigate complaints from members of the public and members of

the service on alleged maladministration, abuse of power,

transgression of the Constitution, laws and policies related to

intelligence and counterintelligence and improper enrichment of any

person through an act or omission.

In view of the fact that my time is very limited, I would like to

call upon the public to make use of this particular avenue, which

provides safeguards for the civilian population. If anybody feels

that their rights have been violated by the engagement in some or

other activity of the services, then they are very welcome to make

use of these services. I just want to remind my friends here ...

Wanneer ek daar anderkant sit, dan sien ek die donker kolletjies gou

raak. [Tyd verstreke.] [When I am sitting over there, I can see the

dark spots easily.][Time expired.]]
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 78 of 204)

Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, hon Ministers and members, when debating

this Budget Vote today, I would like to speak on the need for

secrecy by intelligence services versus the importance of

transparency in our democratic state.

It goes without saying that, in order to effectively neutralise

national and international threats against the security of our

government and the nation, the need for secrecy in our intelligence

services becomes an imperative. However, secrecy without sufficient

transparency and accountability to the appropriate authorities and

oversight structures would in itself become a threat to our present

government. A case in point is the suspension of the former NIA

Director-General and the Head of Operations for being involved in

the unlawful surveillance of ANC businessman, Mr Saki Macozoma. The

FD would like to use this opportunity to commend the Minister for

Intelligence and the inspector-general for their swift intervention.

One cannot use the resources of the state to settle political scores

and to promote one’s own political agenda. The purpose of NIA is to

defend and protect this government and the nation against crime

syndicates, drug lords, money launderers and any person and

organisation that intends to destabilise our democracy.

Another case of concern is the mysterious disappearance of Khalid

Mahmood Rashid, a Pakistani national. It has been alleged by several

national newspapers that the SAPS Intelligence Unit has handed Mr
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 79 of 204)

Khalid over to foreign intelligence agents and that Mr Khalid has

been secretly flown out from Waterkloof Air Force Base to Guantanamo

Bay, a torture camp, because there were claims that he was a member

of Al-Qaeda.

Now, if Mr Khalid was in the country illegally, he should have been

deported to Pakistan, his country of origin; and if foreign agents

wanted to arrest him for alleged international terrorism, they

should have done so in Pakistan, not here.

Hon Minister, this information is in the public domain. If it is

untrue, please correct this perception. The FD supports this Budget

Vote. [Time expired.]

Mr D V BLOEM: Baie dankie, Voorsitter. Jy sien dié is nie ’n sirkus

nie. [Gelag.] Dié is ernstige goed. Mnr Green, as jy hier kom praat

moet jy feite hê. Moenie goed in die koerante lees en dan ... Gaan

sit, gaan sit! [Gelag.] [Thank you very much, Chair. You see, this

is not a circus. [Laughter.] This is serious stuff. Mr Green, when

you come and speak here you must have facts. Don’t read things in

the newspapers and then ... Sit down! Sit down! [Laughter.]]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Agb Bloem, u is nie hier om te

sê wat in die Huis moet gebeur nie. Ek sal sorg dat daar orde is.

[Hon Bloem, you are not here to say what should happen in the House.

I will see to it that there is order.]
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 80 of 204)

Mr D V BLOEM: Baie dankie. [Gelag.] Laat ek eers begin, dan sal ek

terugkom na julle toe. [Thank you very much. [Laughter.] Let me just

begin, and then I will return to you.]

Chairperson, Minister, Members of Parliament, Inspector-General,

Directors-General – our beautiful Directors-General, ladies and

gentlemen - I am rising to support the Intelligence Budget Vote.

I believe it is only correct for all of us never to forget the

contribution that people like Comrade Joe Nhlanhla has made to bring

this country to where we are today. [Applause.] I am saying we must

never forget the sacrifices comrades like him have made for all of

us to sit here in this House as South Africans; South Africans with

different opinions, but who are able to talk about our differences

without fighting.

We know that comrade Joe is not well, but I want to wish him a

speedy recovery. I want to say to Comrade Joe, “I salute you,

Comrade Joe”. In the same breath I also want to say to our Minister

that when the President decided to appoint you as Minister for

Intelligence, I am sure that he had full confidence in your ability

to execute your duty with the commitment and loyalty that you have

displayed over these very difficult years of struggle. Minister, let

me express my appreciation for the work that you have done for this

1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 81 of 204)

I am mentioning this unselfishness of this great South African who

never climbed up the mountain looking for recognition and praise. He

knew very well that he was working for a better South Africa where

all South Africans, black and white, will live together as brothers

and sisters. Can you imagine what would have happened without people

like Comrade Joe Nhlanhla? Yes, I am mentioning this, because these

men and women sitting here and in the gallery today are doing very

difficult work.

Every day when we switch our television sets on you will hear of

syndicates for cars, drugs or any other thing that have been

uncovered. Many people have been arrested. You read in newspapers

about syndicates dealing with passports or ID documents - listen up,

hon Chauke - or ID documents, being arrested. These are men and

women who don’t want to be seen. Who don’t want to pose in front of

cameras or appear on television. No, the only thing that they are

interested in is the safety of the citizens of this country.

[Interjections.] Selfless South Africans, I also want to take this

opportunity to salute all of you, my brothers and sisters, for this

very good job that you are doing. [Applause.] The only way to

motivate these people is to give them the necessary resources they


Let me start with NICOC, the National Intelligence Co-ordinating

Committee. I am asking whether NICOC co-ordination in South Africa

is effective or are we paying lip service to the intelligence co-
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 82 of 204)

ordination? We have the legislation in place to ensure intelligence

co-ordination, but are we applying this effectively?

The National Strategic Intelligence Act, for example, makes

provision for the Minister to regulate the co-ordination of

intelligence as an activity, as well as to regulate the co-

ordination of crime intelligence and counter-intelligence. Is it not

time for the Minister for Intelligence, without legislating our

intelligence service, to regulate co-ordination of intelligence as

an activity?

The measures put in place after 9/11 by governments globally to

strengthen intelligence co-ordination demonstrated that the

intelligence co-ordination needs some level of attention, whether

this be by law or by regulation, as it is not possible to achieve

effective intelligence co-ordination simply through the goodwill of

the participants.

I want to raise a very serious problem I am having, something that

has been troubling me for some time now - Minister I am sure that

you are listening. It is the matter of the media reports about the

President of the Youth League, Mr Mbalula. It was reported that he

complained to you that he was under surveillance by NIA and that you

did not respond in the same manner as you responded to the complaint

by Mr Macozoma.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 83 of 204)

Minister, this is a very serious allegation, and in particular the

charge that there is evidence that you were treating these two

complaints differently. You must please respond to this one, because

it is a worry to me. I think we must not choose sides. We must be

very straightforward and honest when we are dealing with these types

of things. [Interjections.]

Mr L M GREEN: The hon Bloem was accusing me of using newspaper

quotes and he is doing exactly the same. Is that acceptable,


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Green, for a start, I was

not here when you were being accused, so I cannot ...

Mr D V BLOEM: Thank you very much. I am saying he is a Reverend. I

will never go to his church, because he is not speaking the truth.

[Laughter.] [Interjections.]

To what degree has NICOC succeeded in centralising the strategic

analysis function? Have we reached the point where our intelligence

agency centralised all strategic intelligence critical to our

national security, or are we still stove-piping the production of

intelligence assessments? A situation where the client of

intelligence received different products on the same issue is not

acceptable. We need one integrated intelligence assessment drawing

from all the different intelligence structures.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 84 of 204)

NICOC should be able to provide government with an objective view

and provide an important counter way to the understandable desire of

intelligence agencies to push their product to policy-makers. An

independent filter between the intelligence officer who writes the

report and the ultimate intelligence customer who contributes to

maintain objectivity and common standards is required.

Integrated assessments that draw on a full range of intelligence,

diplomatic, government and overt reporting would offer policy makers

a better analysis and comprehensive view of issues. If NICOC is not

yet playing this role, then this is a cause of concern.

NICOC must ensure that they make use of all the information

available to government in preparing a strategic integrated

intelligence assessment from within the intelligence community,

within government as a whole, from open sources and from experts

outside government. Against the background of the recent

developments in the civilian intelligence community, emphasis is

placed on the need for intelligence analysis to be guided by the

highest standard of impartiality, integrity, honesty and

confirmation of the intelligence picture. [Time expired.]

The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: Hon Chairperson, if I might

immediately start with a question posed by the hon Bloem, and to

immediately state that I first learnt of the ANC Youth League’s
1 JUNE 2006            PAGE 85 of 204)

president’s complaint in the media. He had phoned me and I didn’t

recognise his voice or understand who it was. He was rather angry

that I had dealt with Mr Macozoma’s complaint. He asked me what I

was doing about his.

When I saw in the press the next day who in fact it was, I did

contact him. We had an interview with him. In fact, the acting

Director-General of NIA came in with me to find out what in fact the

complaint was. We asked the youth league leader to please provide us

with a written statement so that that could be investigated.

Of course, I would say this to all the members of the public out

there, that on any complaint, follow the course of Mr Macozoma. He

wrote to me and phoned me, and we received the lawyer’s letter. He

gave us the facts, and we could follow up the matter on that basis.

I must say that to date, six months later, Mr Mbalula has failed to

send us a written statement. Nevertheless, the Director-General of

NIA has followed through the complaint. It was difficult because

there were no real facts – the matter was very flimsy - but he was

able to establish that, certainly, in as far as the National

Intelligence Agency is concerned, there was no operation against him


There are a couple of other very important questions, which I want

to respond to immediately, in the public interest. From the hon

Groenewald, the question of assuring the public that they are safe
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 86 of 204)

when they talk on their phones, when they send e-mails, when they

are on the Internet, when they use their cellphones and faxes and so

on, we can indeed assure the public of this.

The office for interception centres, the OIC, which is being set up

to deal with all these, operates under very strict control, dealing

with the interception of all those communication forms. The law-

enforcement agency must first obtain - and that would be near the

police, defence and so on - a warrant from the judge before the OIC

can then go and request an interception from the service provider.

Without a warrant, the service provider will not load a number into

its system to enable the OIC to then intercept it.

The entire warrant process, up until and including the interception,

can be clearly audited by any of the oversight institutions, namely

the inspector-general and the parliamentary Joint Standing Committee

on Intelligence. With all our new procedures, which I have outlined,

and given the shock and the setback we found and faced from the

infringements that have occurred this past year, we have tightened

up all these controls.

I’ve been to the OIC. I’ve met with the staff and I have spoken to

them about the importance of the Constitution and legality, etc.

I’ve seen their system. No one can guarantee 100%, whether you are

the FBI, CIA, MI6 or the old KGB, that there might be no violations.

But we are moving everything that we can in this country to ensure
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 87 of 204)

that we tighten things up, because we don’t want these violations at


Coming to hon Swart’s question - I thank Judge Seriti for remaining

with us up to this point - the present judge, Judge Seriti, was

appointed correctly, in terms of the old monitoring Act of 1992,

which is still in force. Therefore there is no problem regarding the

legality of his appointment or the warrants that he signs. This will

take us to 1 July, when the new Act becomes enforced and the OIC

begins to take over all the operations. This is why the present

judge was only appointed for this interim period, since he is not


I do want to say to hon Swart that his is an important question, and

I have checked this very carefully with the Justice department, and

I want to assure you that this is what I fully understand. The judge

is extremely legal in everything he has been doing.

I quickly want to deal with a few questions from Adv Swart. He posed

a number of challenging questions, such as, to what extent the

intelligence services - NIA in particular, but this has affected

everybody – had been derailed by these unlawful acts which have

scandalised this country. “What happened”, hon Swart asked me, “to

the normal, ongoing activities of the services?”
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 88 of 204)

I could have chosen to simply come here and ignore this scandal and

address the ongoing work in terms of my 10 priorities, which were

outlined two years ago. I reported on them last year. I will still

report to the standing committee regarding that progress.

Quite frankly, I had to weigh up whether to come here and use my 30

minutes simply to go through the routine work, as important as it

is, because there has nevertheless been tremendous progress

notwithstanding. But, clearly, owing to public interest, with

Parliament representing the public, it was incumbent on me to come

here and explain as thoroughly as I did.

I did, you will note, at the end of my speech, say that

notwithstanding all those problems, the services have kept their eye

on the ball. They have maintained their commitment to the ongoing

work and indeed to the priorities. Of course, these are young

services, which are only 11 years old. You can talk about other

international services making all sorts of mistakes; services that

have been in the business for decades and some for centuries. That

is what we need to bear in mind.

You have posed six to eight questions in relation to the priorities,

and I will be giving written answers to all the questions that have

been raised here, as you know I do. But I want very quickly to say

to you that regarding the budget factor, the first priority is to

get the expenditure items into alignment.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 89 of 204)

I noted two years ago that we were spending far too much on

remuneration, at the expense of core basic business, the rock face

of operations and the necessary investment into capital, into

property, equipment and so on. I can tell you that NIA, for

instance, has reduced its personnel expenditure, from the previous

year to this, from 74% to 67%. We are beginning to see the

turnaround and I regard this as extremely significant.

In relation to the early warning centre, enormous work has been

done. We’ve been helping the region and the continent. You’ve

referred to vetting and to misregulations. The Minister for the

Public Service and Administration has to ensure that the services

and her department work together in order to ensure that new

regulations are brought to Cabinet to replace the existing

regulations. Hopefully, we will be able to report back before the

end of the year.

With regard to vetting, the previous Director-General had been given

that task. I was hopeful in this past year that I would come and

look at this with the standing committee and present a Cabinet

memorandum. The presentation made to me was so weak that, quite

frankly, I tossed it out and I said, “Go and start again”. Of

course, I didn’t realise - perhaps in our naivety at that stage -

that the reason a very hard-working individual was not giving me the

product I desired was because his mind and his fingers were in other
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 90 of 204)

activities. So we live and learn. I don’t mind saying that I learn

from mistakes at my late age in life. There’s hardly any time left,

but ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): I’m going to give you three


The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: Thanks, that’s very kind of you,

Chairperson. I really appreciate it. The hon Green made reference to

the deportation of Rashid Khalid, Home Affairs, the SA Police

Service and Safety and Security. I want to assure him that it is not

true that our services, whether from Home Affairs – Minister, thanks

for your presence - or from police, connived with other parties and

sent this individual to Guantanamo Bay.

The individual concerned was in this country and had false

documentation. A question was asked. The Department of Home Affairs,

with assistance from crime intelligence did a tremendous job and

were able to track this individual down. The individual was then

deported back to his home country, which is Pakistan.

Once an individual is back in their home country, in this case

Pakistan, what then happens does not involve us, but involves that

home country and any other country. I cannot say this in a

guaranteed way: My understanding is that the gentleman is still in

that country.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 91 of 204)

Certainly, what we need to answer - and I work with responsible

Ministers – is whether we sent this individual back to his home

country. If any member here is saying we are wrong in acting against

individuals who come into this country illegally on false documents,

then, please, raise that and we will gladly discuss it with you.

I really think that I have dealt with the most substantive of those

questions. Certainly, hon member Vadi is absolutely correct in his

focus on the academy and training. That is certainly something we

are giving much attention to, including the flexibility. We are in

the process of ensuring that an element of training must take place

closer to our services in Pretoria, without undermining the academy

in Mafikeng and the important work it is doing there.

You made reference to something we are very proud of, that whatever

weaknesses we might still have, we feel that the curricula, the

training and management must be improved. Many an African country is

very, very pleased with the kind of training we’ve been able to give

them in terms of the start-up for what, in many countries, are very

young services.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Minister, your time has

now expired.

The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: Thank you. [Applause.]
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 92 of 204)

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Before any member thinks that

I was indulging the Minister, he was actually using his allotted

time, which the clock didn’t indicate.

Debate concluded.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 22 – Independent Complaints Directorate and Vote

No 27 – Safety and Security:

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, hon members of the

House, the current strategic thrust for policing in South Africa is

the reduction of crime by between 7% and 10% annually. We shall

review this strategy at the end of 2009 and make whatever changes

may be necessary in the circumstances. As hon members will

appreciate, any strategy requires a good set of tactics for it to

work. In our case, we believe that we have to deploy our resources,

both human and material, in such a way that they become a well co-

ordinated vehicle for service delivery.

Recent visits to police stations by SAPS managers revealed that a

flatter organisational structure was required, rather than the many

layers of command and control, for better service delivery to our

people on the ground. It was obvious, therefore, that restructuring
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 93 of 204)

the service was necessary as a way forward to better policing and

improved services, using the local police station as the crucible of

such delivery.

The revised structure will incorporate the advantages of

decentralisation of work and authority, along with specialised

skills that will be available at station level.

The focus of the restructuring was directed towards the following:

reducing the current four policing levels to three, in other words,

national, provincial, and station level, which is in line with the

Constitution of the Republic of South Africa; reducing the

provincial and national structures to improve co-ordination and the

provision of functional policing and the support services;

redeployment to station level of certain specialised operational

policing functions to ensure crimes are investigated where they

occur; moving of national, provincial and area skilled persons to

stations to increase the leadership, management, decision-making and

skill levels at stations to deal with the stations’ unique crime

challenges; empowering station commissioners to render a

comprehensive service and effectively manage all resources and amend

accountability frameworks effectively to assess the performance of

stations and station commissioners in terms of standardised

performance indicators.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 94 of 204)

The restructuring process will not result in job losses, nor will it

result in massive displacement of personnel. The moving of skilled

personnel will be done with due regard to their field of competence.

Personnel will be moved within close proximity of their current

place of employment, depending on the prioritisation of station


The revised structure will also ensure that police-community trust

is enhanced and that it also will improve the morale of SAPS

personnel. Government’s intention to establish one-stop service

centres will benefit from the changes we are making, as many of the

complaints we receive will be attended to at station level without

reference to other layers and structures.

The necessary preparations have been completed for the first phase

of the redeployment to commence during the last quarter of this


The most fundamental of the changes to be effected will be the

dissolution of the area offices. Resources from those offices will

be devolved to the various police stations as part of the station

empowerment strategy. The advantages that will flow from the new

arrangement will include the following: elimination of wasteful

duplication; improved service delivery on the ground; improved

command and control of all resources; improved interaction,
1 JUNE 2006           PAGE 95 of 204)

communication and participation; and quicker responses to the needs

of the communities.

The management of the police stations will be the key to success. We

have therefore been training our station commissioners better to

discharge that function. We have introduced a station management

learning programme, comprising six modules, that will see all

station commissioners undergoing intensive training over the next

three years. The programme, which is staggered, will end on 31 March


The investigators that will be deployed at the police stations will

be a combination of experienced members, some of whom will be

redeployed from the former area offices, and well-trained detectives

who have emerged from our new training programmes. This year the

detective service will be enhanced by an additional 1 000 newly

trained members. The addition to the detectives is a means of

consolidating our effort to reduce shortages in the service, among

others things, by deploying to the detective services 30% of trained

police constables directly after they have completed their basic


We have streamlined the career path of detectives so that we retain

experienced members in operations and have them promoted within a

three-level system, while they continue to do functional police
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 96 of 204)

work, rather than to promote them into administrative, managerial


We are currently taking our general investigators through multilevel

specialised courses to give them capacity to investigate every type

of crime. It goes without saying therefore that the allocation for

the current and subsequent financial years will be directed in the

main to the improvements that the restructuring is ushering in. This

is on the basis of the philosophy of more and better resources to

the front.

We started pilot projects a couple of years ago to test the

effectiveness of clustering police stations for improved command and

control and co-ordination. We are now ready to roll it out to all

provinces. The strategy will define a process within the clusters

where police will unite often in joint projects to deal with cross-

station precinct crimes and threats. The biggest station in the

cluster will be the accounting station. Located at the accounting

station will be a structure that will be the supply chain for the

needs of the various stations in that cluster. This will replace the

area structures.

Some of the specialised units of the police will be shifted to

selected accounting stations. Among those will be the family

violence child protection and sexual offences, crime combating

units, as well as members from the serious and violent crimes units.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 97 of 204)

In all respects, the strategy will be to shift more and better

resources to the front, at the coalface of the fight against crime.

In the past two months this country has been gripped by the kind of

violence that we last saw in the late 80s and early 90s, before the

democratic breakthrough of 1994. This violence is happening on the

back of a strike by workers in the private security industry.

No worker or worker leader should be happy to see fellow workers

dying as they are in the course of the strike; worse still, when

their death is caused by other workers. There was confrontation

yesterday in Port Elizabeth between striking and nonstriking

workers. At the end of that incident, one worker lay dead from

bullet wounds and several others were injured. The police arrested

seven workers and confiscated eight firearms.

More than 20 workers have been murdered during the strike, the great

majority having been thrown out of moving trains, as happened before

the advent of democracy in South Africa. More than 256 workers have

been arrested on charges of murder, attempted murder, assault,

public violence and intimidation. Others were arrested for violating

the Regulation of Gatherings Act.

The police will continue to apply the law and will act firmly

against those who commit crimes during the strike. There is no place

in our democracy for hooliganism and anarchy and there is certainly
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 98 of 204)

no place for crime and criminality. In order for us to protect our

democracy, we need to adhere strictly to the dictates of our law.

Anyone who engages in activities that seek to undermine our rule of

law, will face the full might of the law. It does not matter who it

is. You act like a criminal and you will be dealt with like one.

The national commissioner met the Satawu leadership on two occasions

to discuss the incidence of violence. Senior officers of the police

have continued to interact with the worker leaders. The police are

also interfacing with the employers to encourage all concerned to

find a settlement. The private security industry is notorious for

bad conditions of work and very low wages. That obviously is at

variance with government’s concept of a better life for all. The

workers in the industry, therefore, have a right to struggle for a

better work dispensation. There are 4 923 security companies that

are registered with the Private Security Industry Regulatory

Authority. The companies employ 306 407 workers, who work as

security guards. During the last financial year, the PSIRA conducted

6 527 inspections at security establishments and compiled 1 738

dockets for improper conduct against some of the companies, in terms

of the statutory code of conduct.

In the process we have discovered 718 unregistered workers. It is

our view, though, that the contingent of unregistered workers in the

industry is very big. The great majority of them are undocumented

foreign nationals. That matter is receiving focused attention by the
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 99 of 204)

law enforcement agencies and more inspections will be launched in

the period under review.

We will continue to improve our tactics regarding crime prevention

to stop crime in a manner of speaking from happening. Of course, our

main thrust in this respect is social crime prevention. The Deputy

Minister, the hon Susan Shabangu, is going to speak to that issue

later on.

The key to crime prevention always is to address crime generators of

every kind, including negative socioeconomic conditions. Substance

abuse is one of the crime generators we are going to pay particular

attention to during this financial year.

Gun ownership in South Africa continues to be an emotive issue. Guns

in South Africa continue to be the main weapon of choice in the

commission of serious and violent crimes. But gun violence is not

just a South African phenomenon. As Sarah Brady argues in the

introduction to the book The Global Gun Epidemic by Wendy Cukier and

Victor W Sidel, published this year by Praeger Security


 Just as guns know no borders, gun violence has become a global

 epidemic; killing hundreds of thousands of people each year and

 injuring more. The toll is staggering. Experts estimate that there
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 100 of 204)

 are 35 000 annual gun-related deaths in Brazil, 10 000 in South

 Africa, 20 000 in Colombia and 30 000 in the United States.

But Brady goes on to make the following observation:

 Virtually every illegal gun begins as a legal gun. And unregulated

 ownership of guns fuels crime. Because weapons tend to flow from

 unregulated areas to regulated areas, international co-operation

 is critical.

She adds the following:

 Since 1998 there has been an emerging global movement to control

 the illicit trade and misuse of guns, and many countries have

 moved to strengthen their gun laws in an effort to combat this

 global epidemic.

We are among the governments of the world that are looking at proper

firearms control and given that this matter is again before

Parliament, I will not engage further with it at this time.

It is appropriate, though, to leave you with the following

observation by Cukier and Sidel:

 South Africa is one of the few countries that have allowed

 widespread carrying of handguns for self-protection by civilians.

 Despite the emphasis on problems associated with post-conflict
1 JUNE 2006            PAGE 101 of 204)

 military weapons, the vast majority of firearms recovered in crime

 in South Africa, are pistols, revolvers, rifles and shotguns, and

 not military weapons.

I want to repeat that the Firearms Control Act and the Firearms

Control Amendment Act are intended to assist the SA Police Service

in preventing the proliferation of illegal firearms and removing

them from society, as well as to control legally owned firearms.

Between 1 April 2003 and 31 March 2006 we have collected 187 772

firearms in South Africa. It is extremely disappointing to note that

South African gun owners over the last three years lost 50 864

firearms. It is obvious that the great majority of those weapons

have become part of the illegal guns that are in circulation at this


We will continue to accredit nonofficial and official institutions

such as training entities and shooting ranges to ensure that

potential firearm owners receive the necessary mandatory training.

In the past 12 months since April last year, we accredited 586 non-

official firearm institutions, including 151 shooting ranges and 232

training facilities.

Significant strides have been made by the Criminal Record Centre and

Forensic Science Laboratory in the fight against crime. The CRC has

procured 108 live-scan booking stations capable of capturing
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 102 of 204)

finger- and palmprints electronically. This will improve the quality

of prints that will be added to the Afis database that will enhance

our ability to arrest identified suspects.

More than 2 800 digital cameras, 23 plan-drawing programmed

computers, 29 digital capturing systems and 89 lift scan systems for

the scanning and printing of folien have also been obtained to

assist in criminal investigations.

The Forensic Science Laboratory has installed an automated DNA

analysis system to double the daily analysis of samples. The unit is

expected to be fully operational by next month. The Ibis system used

by the ballistics units is currently being improved to help solve

firearms-related cases. A video spectral comparator infrared

apparatus has also been acquired to assist in the differentiation

between inks and documents and detection of alterations, additions

and obliterations on documents.

The gas chromatograph mass spectrometers were also purchased to

assist in analysing drug-related cases. The Craig Micro Spectrometer

was also bought for colour analysis of various materials, such as

fibres and paint samples.

The crime rate in the areas close to the borderline where SAPS

members are deployed showed a decrease during the past financial

year. Cross-border crime, affecting farmers next to the Free State
1 JUNE 2006            PAGE 103 of 204)

borderline, involving attacks on farmers and damage to their

property has declined drastically. Farmers in this area are

increasingly sharing information with SAPS as a result and

consequence of this.

During the current financial year, the following will continue to

receive priority attention. The land borderline control continues to

be executed within six provinces. The priority for the current

financial year is the Lesotho land borderline, including KwaZulu-

Natal, Free State and the Eastern Cape.

Regarding the sea borderline control, the Western Cape’s sea

borderline control to deal with transnational crime within the

maritime environment was launched on 4 January this year.

The operational area entails the sea borderline from Cape Town in

the Western Cape to the Green River Mouth in the Northern Cape

province. The deployment includes the policing of the various

maritime zones, namely, South African territorial waters, continuous

zones and exclusive economic zones, and the radius of 20km inland of

the shoreline.

In December 2005 the air borderline control was established with

South Africa and Zimbabwe, and South Africa and Mozambique. To

achieve this objective, the airstrips and smaller airfields in the

Limpopo province are policed. Operations in respect to air
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 104 of 204)

borderline control were rolled out to the provinces of Gauteng,

North West, Northern Cape and Free State.

The protection and security service of the SA Police Service is

paying focused attention within the environments of railway

policing, ports of entry and the government’s security regulator.

All the pilot sites are now fully operational. Members have been

deployed at the Johannesburg International Airport, Metro Rail

system in Cape Town, and a big contingent of others is being trained

for permanent deployment in the railway police environment in

Gauteng and KwaZulu-Natal. The national mobile training unit will

also be part of the redeployment.

The other protection and security members are deployed at the Durban

Harbour and the Beit Bridge border post. The protection and security

services established a counterassault team geared for rapid

deployment in high-risk operations within the VIP protection


I am proud to announce that it includes the only female, Captain

Thandeka Majola, ever to complete the freefall course in parachuting

at the SA National Defence Force. [Applause.]

The process to transfer to SAPS excess SADNF personnel to do police

work commenced last year. Two-hundred-and-ninety-six members have
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 105 of 204)

already completed their conversion training. They will be part of

the protection and security service.

In my Budget Vote speech last year, I indicated that an alternative

system would be put in place by SAPS to address the phasing out of

the commando system to avoid a security vacuum. Increasing reservist

numbers was one of the identified strategies to do that. A new

system has been in force since April. It entails a call-up of

reservists by the provincial commissioner on a rotation basis for

which they will be paid.

The basis of the call-up will be the prevailing crime trends

identified at the given station level. They will also participate in

the rural safety programme. Despite the new system, the philosophy

of the reservist system that it is by nature voluntary remains


An amount of R265 million has been approved for the call-up of

reservists. It will be allocated as follows during the current

financial year: R60 million for the call-up of 8 000 reservists, and

the following financial year we will have R80 million for the call-

up of 10 000 reservists. In the last financial year of the Medium-

Term Expenditure Framework cycle, R125 million will be available for

the recruitment of 15 000 reservists. Almost 17 000 reservists were

recruited during the last financial year, of which 130 were commando

members, recruited in respect of the exit/entry strategy between the
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 106 of 204)

SANDF and SAPS. It is anticipated that the recruitment of former

commando members will increase, as the units that are due for

closure are comprised of fully active members.

The SAPS training continues to use best practice to produce skilled

functionaries in the service. In the last financial year, the

primary focus was on functional and operational interventions.

During the year under review, it is on operational command and

control, management and leadership development.

A scarce skills policy was developed and approved in 2004, designed

to retain scarce skills and pay the requisite remuneration for such

skills. We started paying allowances in April this year, in keeping

with our intention to retain scarce skills.

The National Secretariat for Safety and Security and the Independent

Complaints Directorate continue to service the Ministry for Safety

and Security. In the previous Budget Vote I indicated that both

those entities would be restructured for maximum effectiveness. Work

in that direction has already been done. However, attention was

focused at national level only as a means to kick-start the process.

The next phase will be the structural review and design of the

secretariat at the provincial level, a matter that is receiving

attention between the Ministry and the members of the executive

council responsible for community safety in the provinces at one
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 107 of 204)

level, and the Department of the Public Service and Administration

on the other.

An increase of approximately 17,5% marks the budget allocation this

financial year of the Independent Complaints Directorate. This has

enabled the directorate to continue to improve its internal capacity

to investigate complaints and to raise the level of its

administrative ability to deal with the implementation of obligatory

legislation and to strengthen corporate governance. Thank you very

much, Chair. [Applause.]

Ms M M SOTYU: Hon Chair, hon Minister and members of Parliament, I

send my greetings to all those kids in the gallery. The ANC strategy

and tactics document points out that: “The battle against crime

cannot be separated from the war on want.”

The President, in his opening address, put the safety and security

of South Africans as a priority in the evolving democratisation of

society. We welcome the increase in the Department of Safety and

Security’s budget for 2006-07.

The strategic plan of the South African Police Service for 2005 up

to 2010 directs strategic and operational planning for the five-year

period. This broad five-year plan is informed each year by one-year

planning information, which focuses on a few details, that is the
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 108 of 204)

strategic priorities, measurable objectives and targets for that


As mentioned by the Minister of Safety and Security, this process of

the redistribution of skills to the police stations is to correct

the past skewed distribution. The new redistribution will see most

of the police stations staffed with better skilled, trained and

experienced personnel, strengthening the current understaffed

personnel, lack of skills and training.

This process is not about demoting high-ranking police officers, but

about addressing the problem of lack of management skills at police

station level. Members of the Police Service need not be misled by

the media and those who think they know better. There is nothing

like that.

This exercise has also allowed for the identification of gaps, the

development of appropriate skills and retraining of SAPS members,

especially those at operational level.

We want to assure members of SAPS that the ANC-led government has no

intention of retrenching the police, nor are we demoting them. We

cannot afford to lose skilled police officers. However, we

desperately need these skills at station level, where crime is

happening 24 hours a day. Those who are opposed to the

transformation of the police need not be frightened.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 109 of 204)

Sihlalo, le ngxolo ingaka yenziwa ngaba basekunxele kwam -

andibhekisi kuwe Baw’ uNdlovu - nabamaphephandaba ngohlengahlengiso

phakathi kweli sebe ize ingamtyhafisi uMphathiswa, uMkomishinala

uSelebi, uMkomishinala uHlela noSekela-Mkomishinala uSingh, nabanye

ookhomishinala abasebenza nabo. Kaloku kwabona aba bangavumelaniyo

nolu hlengahlengiso ikwangabo abathi izikhululo zamapolisa azinawo

amandla okulwa nezinye iindidi zobundlobongela ngenxa yokungabikho

kolwazi lokuphathi kwezinye zezi zikhululo.

Uthe ke, Mphathiswa, xa uzama ukulungisa lo ndonakele yaqala

inyakanyaka. Amapolisa mawayeke ukuvuma ukulahlekiswa ngamaphepha

nabantu abangena nto yokwenza, abasoloko bebalekela emaphepheni

bengenalwazi lupheleleyo, besithi urhulumente kaKhongolozi uza

kubalahlela ngaphandle.

Ze bakhumbule kaloku ukuba sathi xa sasilungiselela unyulo lowe-1994

baqhathwa abemi beli ngoo “siyazi”, kwathiwa mababophe imithwalo

yabo balifulathele eli kuba kaloku abagrogrisi abayi-ANC baza

kubuyisa izitya, kodwa sisahleli nabo apha phakathi nanamhlanje,

khange sizibuyise zitya.

Siyazi ukuba utshintsho asinto ilula, yinto ebuhlungu, kodwa ukuba

kulo kuza kuxhamlisa wonke ummi woMzantsi Afrika, makube njalo ke;

malwenzeke. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
1 JUNE 2006          PAGE 110 of 204)

[Chairperson, this big noise about transformation within the Police

Service comes from those sitting on my left and the media - I’m not

referring to you, Mr Ndlovu. May the Minister, the Police

Commissioner, Mr Selebi, Commissioner Hlela and the Deputy Police

Commissioner, Mr Singh and other commissioners involved, not be

discouraged. Those people who are against this transformation are

the ones who complain about some police stations not having the

capacity to combat certain crimes because of their lack of

management skills.

The Minister said though that when you start doing damage control,

they bring about this confusion. The police must not allow

themselves to be manipulated by the media and those people who have

nothing to do, who always approach the media with inadequate

information, claiming that the ANC-led government will abandon them.

They should remember that before the 1994 elections those “certain

individuals” manipulated the citizens of this country by saying they

must flee the country because the ANC-terrorists will take revenge.

But even today, they are still among us, and the ANC did not avenge

themselves. We know that transformation is not easy. It comes with

pain and it is good if it benefits all the citizens of South Africa,

so let it take its course.]

Chairperson, the fight against crime cannot be the responsibility of

the police or government alone. Community involvement is also of
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 111 of 204)

vital importance in the prevention of crime. Perpetrators, victims,

and witnesses of criminal activities are known to the members of the

community. It is, therefore, the responsibility of the community, in

partnership with the police, to prevent and expose criminal

networks. Communities are encouraged to take an active role in the

fight against crime, in co-operation with law enforcement agencies.

This is not an encouragement for communities to take the law into

their own hands or to embark on street justice or vigilante

activities, but for them to become involved and support their local

police stations in anticrime programmes.

Let me commend the police for the good work they do. It is

unfortunate that only negative things are being highlighted about

them, and we seem to forget that even our very own lives depend on

these men and women to whom, in my language, we refer as

“Amadelakufa” [Those who do not fear death].

The ANC is opposed to any form of violence, which sacrifices the

safety and security of the people of South Africa.

Sihlalo, linyala into yokubulawa kwabantu ngendlela engenalusini,

bakhutshwe koololiwe ababalekayo. Akakho umntu onokuthi ephilile

engqondweni, athi uyalithanda ilizwe lakhe, kodwa aziphathe

ngendlela esibona abantu beziphethe ngayo.
1 JUNE 2006            PAGE 112 of 204)

Mphathiswa, ndicinga ukuba kuza kufuneka sikhe siyiphande le nto,

kuya kuthi kanti inonyawo lwemfene. Amazwe onke ajonge apha kuthi

njengokuba siququzelela indebe yomhlaba yowama-2010. Baza kuthi

abantu bamanye amazwe xa bebona into eyenzekayo, abantu bephoselwa

ngaphandle koololiwe, bazibuze ukuba ngaba ubomi babo kwakunye

notyalo-mali lwabo luya kukhuseleka na kweli lizwe lethu.

Ndingathanda ukuthi emapoliseni ... (Translation of isiXhosa

paragraphs follows.)

[Chairperson, it is such a disgrace for people to be killed in such

a brutal manner – to be thrown out of a moving train. No person with

a clear conscience can claim to be patriotic but then conducts

himself in such a despicable manner.

Minister, I think we have to investigate this matter; maybe there is

something behind this. All the countries are looking at us as we

prepare to host the 2010 Soccer World Cup. When people from other

countries see our people being thrown from moving trains, they will

be concerned about their safety and their investments in this

country. I would like to say to the police ...]

... well done for the recent arrest of the murderers of the two Cape

Town-based artists, and for the arrest of the murderers of the

Mbhele girls in Mamelodi, the arrest of crime perpetrators in

Gordon’s Bay in less than a week, and that of the murderers of train

1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 113 of 204)

We also welcome major drug busts netting drugs valued at hundreds of

millions of rands, the arrest of the suspects involved in the

Johannesburg International Airport foreign currency heist, and the

swift Interpol move in pursuance of the Boeremag escapees. Those are

some of the beautiful and good achievements of the police, on which

no one ever compliments them. [Applause.]

Mphathiswa, njengokuba ukuba amapolisa esenza lo msebenzi mhle

kangaka, masizame siqinisekise ukuba iindawo asebenza kuzo

zinomtsalane ukuze bakhuthazeke. [Minister, since the police are

doing such a good job, let us try to make sure the police stations

are attractive, in order for us to build their morale.]

Chairperson, let me then take this opportunity and thank those

Members of Parliament who now and then visit their police stations

and come and report to the portfolio committee. [Applause.] Most of

the members who visit these police stations are highly impressed by

the improvements and the programmes in some of them.

[Interjections.] If you want to know, you must visit your own police


I will mention some of the police stations that had problems when we

visited them in the past two years, but of which Members of

Parliament have recently reported that the situation has changed

100%. Amongst these is the Mitchells Plain police station. No one

can say to me that Mitchells Plain has not changed, because it has.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 114 of 204)

Another is Cape Town Central, just across the street, but none of

you visited that police station because you are not interested.

However, those people are the ones who protect your lives.

There have also been changes in the Bloemspruit and Theunissen

police stations in the Free State, and the Mamelodi police station

in Gauteng, etc. We encourage Members of Parliament to visit police

stations so that if there are problems, they can report these to the

portfolio committee so that the committee can try and assist those

police stations.

Thank you and well done, Comrade Jackie, Comrade Hlela and your team

for the good work. Thanks to all those senior and junior members of

SAPS who always respond positively to the calls of the portfolio

committee. Let me not forget some of our entities, Sita, ICD and the

national secretariat, and of course the portfolio committee. Thank

you very much for your support, Bab’ uNdlovu. We support the budget.


Mr R JANKIELSOHN: Chairperson, most people in South Africa do not

have a platform to state their case to the Minister of Safety and

Security. I will speak on their behalf. I would like to start my

speech with some comments from hundreds of letters, emails and faxes

that the DA receives on crime in South Africa. We, in the DA,

believe that the general public should guide our decision on whether

or not to support budgets.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 115 of 204)

I submitted a parliamentary question to the Minister of Safety and

Security last year regarding a murder. The wife of the victim had

the following to say about the unsatisfactory reply:

 Die SA Polisiediens se antwoord op my navraag is seker die mees

 onbevredigende terugvoering denkbaar wat die Minister van

 Veiligheid en Sekuriteit kon uitdink om aan die naasbestaande van

 ’n moordslagoffer te gee. Die niksseggende antwoord is nie die

 papier werd waarop dit gedruk is nie. Die Minister se terugvoering

 is absoluut betreurenswaardig, om die minste te sê, en die antwoord

 word verwerp met die minagting wat dit verdien. (Translation of

 Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

 [The SA Police Service’s answer to my enquiry is surely the most

 unsatisfactory feedback imaginable that the Minister of Safety and

 Security could have thought of giving to a close relative of a

 murder victim. This meaningless answer is not worth the paper it

 is written on. The Minister’ s feedback is absolutely deplorable,

 to say the least, and the answer is rejected with the contempt it


The brutality of criminals is expressed in another letter, in which

a victim of hijacking states that after being hijacked:

 The man, who attacked Mrs T, stole her handbag and bit off her

 finger on her left hand to steal her diamond ring.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 116 of 204)

After being robbed at gunpoint, a young student wrote the following:

 Ever since the incident I have been thinking of getting on a plane

 never to return. The government is always wondering why all the

 educated youth are leaving the country. The answer is that because

 in another country, unlike this one, they will be able to have a

 future without having to look over their shoulders and worrying

 when a criminal is going to strike or harm them or their loved


Another person wrote to me about a girl of 15 who was raped by an

individual on 4 April 2005, in Soshanguve. The alleged perpetrator

was caught by the community and taken to the police. He was released

three days later. The writer states that –

 On 23 June she was gang raped and again the police at Soshanguve

 didn’t want to do anything. Her mother had to stop police from

 another station to get them to react and try and get Soshanguve to

 do something, which until now did nothing. I do not know the full

 medical condition, but believe it is very bad.

A concerned parent explained how children and a teacher at a school

were held at gunpoint and robbed. The parent states that:
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 117 of 204)

 The most concerning factor to arise from the terrible incident was

 when the children dialled 10111 for help, they were told to come

 to the police station.

I have files full of such comments from the public. Each one of

these comments is a motion of no confidence in this government’s

ability to deal effectively with crime in South Africa. On this

Minister’s beat, 51 people are murdered and 151 rapes are reported

every day in this country. Families are torn apart and lives are

destroyed by criminals.

In the last year, in this country, babies and elderly women have

been raped and killed in a most brutal fashion. People are thrown

off trains, and an elderly man was recently even tortured with

boiling water. How many such cases have taken place this year? We

don’t know, because the Minister won’t give this country regular

updated crime statistics. Who, except the ANC, can support a budget

when the department has not met its own targets and without knowing

what the reported crime situation in South Africa really looks like?

South Africans have a right to know the type and frequency of crimes

committed in their neighbourhoods. Government’s response to crime is

silence on crime and statistics, closed briefings on police

restructuring that includes the closing down of child protection and

other specialised units, and the deployment of the responsible
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 118 of 204)

Minister for peacemaking in the Great Lakes region leaving no one in

charge of dealing with crime in South Africa.

Very important to our fight against crime is that someone is seen to

be in charge of this effort. The Minister needs to prioritise his

activities. Victims of crime need to know that their government

cares and our police need visible government and active support. It

does not help either when a national police commissioner blames his

members for every bungle or wastes energy on criticising the

Independent Complaints Directorate and even MPs when they carry out

their oversight functions.

He needs to be disciplined and kept focused on his job. The

government’s primary duty is to protect its citizens from harm. This

is the social contract that exists between the government and its

citizens. It is however the government that is not carrying out its

side of the contract. Citizens have a natural right to protect

themselves when the government fails. The problem is that they are

paying billions of rands to do so and government continues to tax

them for something that it is failing to do. This is no less than


Individuals and businesses should at least receive a tax rebate for

the money spent on private security. People who cannot afford

private security often take the law into their own hands by

participating in vigilante groups to protect their communities from
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 119 of 204)

criminals; this, out of pure frustration. The lack of confidence in

government is further illustrated by an Isa Survey that indicated

that up to 50% of certain categories of crimes are not even


The state is slowly losing its grip on society with potentially

devastating consequences for our democracy, never mind the 2010

Soccer World Cup. Last week my colleague the hon James Selfe told us

about the overflowing jails. I am more concerned about the thousands

of criminals who are not detected or convicted who continue to prey

on society. The certainty of detection and punishment is one of the

best deterrents to would-be criminals.

The shortages of personnel and equipment and huge caseloads in the

detective services affect their ability to investigate crimes,

apprehend criminals and obtain convictions in our courts. Our

economic hub, Gauteng, has a 28% vacancy rate in its detective

services and 46% in visible policing. This is why the government has

failed to meet its own targets of bringing down contact crimes by

between 7% and 10% per annum.

The conditions of employment for police officials is also cause for

concern. We require a well-motivated, well-paid and professional

police service. Every crime scene or accident scene that our police

officers deal with leaves a scar on his or her memory. There is

currently inadequate psychological support for our police officers.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 120 of 204)

Aspects such as back pay, transfers that exclude family

circumstances and racial discrimination in areas such as promotions

and even disciplinary hearings is causing many dedicated police

officers further stress and many leave the service.

A sergeant in the police writes the following in this regard:

 I am a sergeant and I have been up for promotion to inspector

 since 2001. I have been told that the reason why many others and I

 cannot be promoted is because there is not enough representation

 in the service.

Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms A VAN WYK: Dankie, Voorsitter. [Thank you, Chairperson.]

Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, Members of the

House, last year the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security

tabled before this House a special report on the Independent

Complaints Directorate, ICD. The report followed concerns raised by

members of the portfolio committee over a number of years. The

report, which was adopted by this House, highlighted serious

shortcomings and challenges that face the ICD. Some very specific

recommendations to improve the operations of the ICD were also made.

Die rede hoekom die komitee die verslag ter tafel gelê het, is dat

ons – spesifiek dié van ons in die ANC – glo dat die Onafhanklike
1 JUNE 2006           PAGE 121 of 204)

Klagtedirektoraat, OKD, ʼn deurlopende belangrike rol in die

uitvoering van die transformasie-agenda van die ANC speel. Die

verslag het tot die slotsom gekom dat die OKD se kernfunksies nie

ten volle suksesvol uitgevoer word nie. (Translation of Afrikaans

paragraph follows.)

[The reason why the committee tabled the report was that we –

particularly those of us in the ANC – believed that the Independent

Complaints Directorate, ICD, plays an ongoing and important role in

the execution of the transformation agenda of the ANC. The report

concluded that the ICD’s core functions have not been successfully


The report strongly indicated that the capacity of the ICD at

provincial level needed to be improved. We are grateful that the

Minister in his restructuring of the ICD took this point on board

and now he intends to establish satellite offices in most of the

policing areas. The establishment of satellite offices will only be

fully realised in the 2007-08 financial year.

Furthermore, investigative capacity will be made accessible to the

provinces and the national office will be transformed into an

administrative support in the execution of the duties of the ICD.

This, we believe, will go a long way in addressing the case backlogs

in the investigation and improve the accessibility of the ICD to a

greater part of the population.
1 JUNE 2006           PAGE 122 of 204)

National Treasury expressed concern over the ICD’s inability to fill

vacancies in its establishment. This has also been a concern raised

by the committee in its report. The ICD itself continuously

identifies insufficient capacity as its biggest challenge. A

shortage of investigators is stated as the main reason for the huge

backlog in the finalisation of cases.

Over the past few years the ICD budget increased on average by

13,78% per annum. This is far above the inflation rate, yet

compensation over the past years consistently reflects

underexpenditure and in some instances was even used for capital

expenditure. With the assistance of the Treasury and the Department

of Public Service and Administration, a career pathing strategy for

investigators will be put in place to address this problem. The

committee will follow developments with keen interest and expects to

report an improvement in this regard next year.

Die OKD het nie sy meetbare doelwitte en finalisering van sake

bereik nie. Verlede jaar het die komitee aangedui dat die doelwitte

na ons mening onrealisties is en aangepas behoort te word. Dit is

nou gedoen en die OKD het die komitee verseker dat met ekstra

mannekrag die agterstand in die finalisering van sake binne die

volgende twee jaar ingehaal gaan word. (Translation of Afrikaans

paragraph follows.)
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 123 of 204)

[The ICD has not achieved its measurable objectives and finalisation

of cases. Last year the committee indicated that the objectives were

unrealistic in our opinion and that they should be amended. This has

been done now, and the ICD has assured the committee that with extra

manpower the backlog regarding the finalisation of cases could be

eliminated within the next two years.]

The ICD awards a huge number of bursaries per year with very few of

its employees successfully completing their studies. While we

encourage further studies, we believe that these studies should not

take the place of training within the ICD and we would request that

more thorough screening of bursary candidates be done and that the

internal training of the ICD be improved. A lot can be achieved

through skills development of the existing staff.

The ICD did indicate to members that they were experiencing problems

in terms of co-operation from the side of the SAPS in terms of the

implementation of the Domestic Violence Act. The ICD indicated that

it had taken the matter up with the area and provincial officers of

the SAPS, but that co-operation was still lacking. It is not clear

to the committee why they did not take up the issue with the

national office of the SAPS, as we know that violence against women

and children is a priority for the SAPS, and we are sure that they

will receive the necessary support from the National Commissioner

and his management team. The ICD is encouraged to take that route

and the committee also undertakes to assist where possible.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 124 of 204)

For the first time in many years the ICD tabled some of its

mandatory reports in Parliament. This in itself is already a great

improvement. Two further reports that were undertaken by the ICD

were also tabled; one dealing with factors relating to backlogs in

cases and the other with the complainants’ level of satisfaction.

The report on the complainants’ level of satisfaction further

vindicated the committee’s report to Parliament last year. Seventy

per cent of complainants indicated that they were not satisfied with

the services of the ICD. What is most interesting about the research

is neither the satisfaction nor the dissatisfaction of complainants,

but rather the profile of complainants.

Seventy-two per cent of the complainants interviewed were men, and

only 28% female. Eighty-four per cent of the complainants come from

urban areas. Minister, this is a clear indication that accessibility

to the ICD still remains a problem and that the decision you took to

open satellite offices in the policing areas is the correct one.

The ICD needs to be congratulated though for the courage that they

showed by conducting this research and for putting in place the

necessary corrective measures. It is after all women who suffer and

who need the assistance of the ICD.

Chairperson, allow me to touch on the Secretariat for a moment. We

welcome the restructuring of the Secretariat by the Minister and
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 125 of 204)

especially the fact that they are now within his office. This is

where we believe they belong and where they can play an important

advisory role. We would also like to urge the Secretariat and the

ICD to meet and to sort out how best they can assist one another in

the fulfilment of their duties. We believe that the ICD can provide

some valuable information to the Secretariat, which can inform their

policy suggestions that they made to the Minister.

There can be no doubt that the Police Service of today is more

credible and acceptable to the majority of the community than they

were in 1994. But exactly because of that, it can be said that

issues of service delivery and police performance are now more

prominent than they were 12 years ago. Therefore, in order for the

SAPS to maintain and further improve its legitimacy, the ICD needs

to fulfil its role as set out.

Police accountability, notwithstanding the achievements and the

reforms already achieved, should remain a priority. The success of

the SAPS strategy is very strongly based on community involvement

through community police forums and in-sector policing. In order for

any police service anywhere in the world to receive that necessary

co-operation, that police service needs to be perceived as credible

and legitimate.

Accountability to the state, including Parliament, the

constitutionally created bodies such as the ICD, the Public
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 126 of 204)

Protector and other Chapter 9 institutions, as well as the internal

mechanisms of the SAPS dealing with discipline, evaluation and

performance, and the broader civil society such as the media and

communities at large, all play an important role in the oversight of

the SAPS. The success and the way in which it is done is an

important indicator of the political and social order of a state.

In fact, there is an increasing trend within international

communities to establish independent police oversight bodies - this

is in policing agencies far more established than our own. Two

examples that I would like to raise here is that of the Police

Integrity Commission, PIC, of Australia, New South Wales, and the

independent Police Complaint Commission, PCC, in England and Wales.

The PIC of Australia was established in 1996 to detect, investigate

and prevent serious police misconduct. While the police service

retains first responsibility for investigating most complaints, the

PIC oversee these investigations, can institute their own

investigations or joint investigations or even refer cases back to

the police for further investigation.

In England and Wales the PCC became operational in April 2004. The

commission is responsible for assisting the public to make a

complaint, keep the complainant informed about progress, make sure

that the police handle it with a high standard of competence and
1 JUNE 2006           PAGE 127 of 204)

themselves investigate the most serious cases, using their own


Over and above this the PCC can supervise or direct investigations

by the police and approve the police’s choice of investigator. The

police must comply with its findings on appeal matters, including

taking disciplinary measures if instructed. Furthermore, the

commission can issue statutory guidance and set standards for the

police on how to handle complaints.

There should thus not be any doubt in the mind of any person or body

over the need for and existence of the ICD. Rather, we would suggest

that it be considered yet another tool towards the overall effective

management of the SAPS. For is it not true that every corrupt police

officer exposed and removed from the system, no matter by whom,

improves the service delivery and the credibility of the total

police service?

The ICD has had a rough time since this very committee subjected it

to a lot of pressure. We hope that they now understand that the

reason for that is not one of undermining their work, but rather

because we would like to see them fulfil their task in a

much-improved manner. We will become their biggest ally, along with

the National Treasury, but we need them to demonstrate to us in no

uncertain terms a commitment to the important role they have to play

within our country.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 128 of 204)

Chairperson, I still have a few minutes left and I would like to use

them just to respond to the hon Jankielsohn.

Ek vind dit ongelooflik arrogant dat ʼn mens kan opstaan, agt minute

op ʼn podium deurbring en nie een positiewe bydrae in daardie agt

minute lewer nie. Hulle sê goeie leierskap is om namens jouself te

praat en nie namens ander nie. Dit is maklik om op ʼn emosionele en

sensasionele wyse debat te voer as jy niks het om by te dra nie.

Ek wil graag weet, en ek daag enigiemand uit om vir my een sin te

wys in dié lid se bydrae wat positiewe kommentaar is, wat sê,

Minister, ek stel voor pleks van om dit te doen, doen die volgende”.

Daar was nie een sin daarin wat dit gedoen het nie. Inteendeel, dit

het by tye vir my geklink of ek na ʼn klankbaan van die Daily Voice

of Son luister. Dit is ʼn sensasionele geplunder van wat in

werklikheid ʼn realiteit vir mense op die grondvlak is. Ons stel

belang om daardie probleem aan te pak. Indien jy ernstig is daaroor,

sal jy óók kom met voorstelle oor hoe dit gedoen kan word.


Ek wil dit onomwonde stel dat die agb lid die Huis mislei het,

aangesien ek nie die woord “leuen” mag gebruik nie. Die

Kinderbeskermingseenheid word nie toegemaak nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Die Kinderbeskermingseenheid se lede word na die plaaslike

polisiekantore afgewentel, sodat hulle dáár kan wees waar die
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 129 of 204)

misdade plaasvind, sodat hulle vinniger en doeltreffender kan optree

téén die misdadigers wat ons kinders te na kom.

Minister, die lid praat van die land wat nie vertroue het in u

leierskap en in die ANC as regering nie. Sy geheue is kort; 2004 se

verkiesingsuitslae strek net twee jaar terug en die plaaslike

regeringverkiesingsuitslae is selfs nog meer onlangs en na my mening

is dít die geleentheid wanneer die publiek die kans het om te sê:

“Ek vertrou julle nie meer om my lewe veilig te hou nie.”

Ek wil graag afsluit deur te sê dat die ANC onomwonde die veiligheid

van ons mense eerste stel en alles sal doen om seker te maak dat dit

gebeur. Dankie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs


[I find it unbelievably arrogant that someone can stand up, spend

eight minutes on the podium and not make one positive contribution

in those eight minutes. They say good leadership is speaking on

one’s own behalf and not on behalf of others. It is easy to debate

in an emotional and sensational manner when one has nothing to


I would like to know, and I challenge anyone to show me one sentence

in this member’s contribution where there is positive commentary or

that says, “Minister, I propose that instead of that, the following

should be done”. There was not one sentence in there to that effect.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 130 of 204)

On the contrary, on occasion it sounded to me as if I were listening

to a soundtrack of the Daily Voice or the Son. This is sensational

plundering of what is in reality happening to the people at

grassroots level. We are interested in tackling that problem. If you

were serious about it, you would also come up with proposals about

how it can be done. [Applause.]

I want to state unequivocally that the hon member has misled the

House, since I may not use the word “lie”. The Child Protection Unit

will not be closed. [Interjections.] The Child Protection Unit’s

members will be devolved to the local police stations, so that they

can be there where the crimes happen, so that they can act more

quickly and more efficiently against the criminals who transgress

against our children.

Minister, the member said the country has no confidence in your

leadership and in the ANC as government. He has a short memory; we

had the election results of 2004 just two years ago and the local

government results are even more recent, and in my opinion this is

when the public has the opportunity to say: “I do not trust you any

longer to safeguard my life.”

I would like to conclude by saying unequivocally that the ANC puts

the lives of our people first and will do everything to ensure that

it happens. Thank you. [Applause.]]
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 131 of 204)

Mr V B NDLOVU: Sihlalo neNdlu ehloniphekile, mhlonishwa nePhini

lakho nabahlonishwa bonke abakhona ... [Chairperson and the

honourable House, hon Minister and your Deputy and all hon members

present ...]

... this year we have observed that the budget allocated for Safety

and Security is higher than usual. Big allocations are always

absorbed by the administration and includes salaries for the

personnel. It is therefore encouraging that members of the police

will now get better salaries than before. This of course is an

incentive for them to provide the public with much-needed

improvement in service delivery.

Still on the issue of service delivery, I would like to congratulate

the police on two cases, which as far as I am concerned, were well

managed: The quick arrest of the murderers of Judge Ngoepe’s

Granddaughter and the crowd control outside the Jacob Zuma trial.

This is what the public needs to see more often, and it is highly


However, I am worried about the high-profile cases. These appear to

get to court sooner than expected, yet other cases never see the

court door. A case is a case, mhlonishwa [the hon member], no matter

who is involved. The arrest of the child killers here in the Western

Cape was noted but the police still have to do much more because the
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 132 of 204)

abduction and murdering of children is proving to be a big problem,

and this is totally unacceptable.

Again the department has adopted federal thinking by devolving

powers of the police to the station commissioners. I must

congratulate them for listening to the IFP policy, mhlonishwa, [the

hon member] of devolution of powers to the local level. Debating

this matter was long overdue, and the whole safety and security

portfolio has agreed with me. Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo. [Thank you,


Members of the police must not be afraid because we are not

implementing resolution surveys but devolving the powers to the

station commissioners. All specialised personnel will be

accommodated at local levels where they are needed most.

The increasing employment of the police and detective service is

welcomed because the department has reduced the burden of detectives

carrying 150 dockets each. This stress results in many of our

policemen and women committing suicide. The department must employ

more psychologists to service a large number of police who need it.

It must also be seen that police stations around the country improve

their environment where victims, particularly those of rape and

child abuse, feel comfortable, secure and more accommodated when

they report their ordeals.
1 JUNE 2006          PAGE 133 of 204)

The department must deal with corrupt officials in order to clean

the department’s standing. Corrupt police are not wanted in the

service. The quicker the disciplinary measures are implemented, the


In conclusion, mhlonishwa, nawe sihlalo [the hon member and

Chairperson], the comment by the national Commissioner on the

incorporation of the Scorpions into the police and maintaining of

the same department was unfortunate. That was the Kampepe


The national Commissioner’s comment about the Independent Complaints

Directorate in the NCOP was also unfortunate. This comment ties up

with the article in the Mail & Guardian about the national

Commissioner having links to the late Brett Kebble, and is very


I am not sure whether the article is true or not. However, I stand

to be corrected by the national Commissioner himself, not his

deputation, led by Mr Hlela. This case is a serious one, and we are

still waiting for the arrest of the killers of Mr Kebble.

The revamped ICD should open satellite police offices in rural

areas. This is a much-needed service in these areas. The employment

of more detectives as heads of offices to investigate cases should

be completed soon.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 134 of 204)

At metro level, the investigation of Metro police action must be

increased to ensure that Metro police are not involved in crime. I

urge the ICD to be independent, not to rely on the police while

investigating them. The department must look at amending the Act in

order for the ICD to take decisions and implement it themselves, and

not to rely on the police to implement the ICD decisions.

I applaud the decision of the National Commissioner for the KwaZulu-

Natal inquiry into the police. I hope our province will now know

where their powers end.

Akufanele bagagamele ezintweni ezingaqondene nabo. Hlehla bheseni,

akukaphakwa. [Uhleko.] [They must not exaggerate things that do not

concern them. Just wait a bit.] [Interjections.]]

Let us reduce crime, Mr Minister. Let us make sure that South Africa

is safe. Let us be prepared for 2010, physically and

psychologically. I thank you.

Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo. Cha, angibonge. Ngisheshe ngaqeda isikhathi

singakapheli, Sihlalo. [Ihlombe.] [Thank you, Chairperson. Thank

you. I have finished before time, Chairperson.] [Applause.]]


chairperson of the portfolio committee, members of the portfolio

committee, Members of Parliament, commissioners present here with
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 135 of 204)

us, senior managers and all visitors, today there are young people

who have come to this House. They are our special invitees and have

been invited by the Minister of Safety and Security, in keeping with

our programme in celebrating the 30th anniversary of the Soweto


All these young people come from the nine provinces. We have

Siphosethu Ndalase from Eastern Cape, Sonia Molautse from Gauteng –

can they stand up as I call their names. Then there is Mamelo

Octavia Makgatha from Free State, Albertina Cheou from Limpopo,

Esther Matsege from North West, Unathi Dyani from Western Cape, Mary

Nokukhanya Hlangu from KwaZulu-Natal, Siphiwe Skhosana from

Mpumalanga and Grace Kokore from Northern Cape. [Applause.] These

are our young people who are indeed our aspirants and our future

leaders. Thank you very much. You can sit down.

Four of the girls, Siphiwe, Nokukhanya, Grace and Unathi

participated in the drafting my speech and were also part of the

editorial team that “cleaned” my speech, which I am reading to you

today. It is indeed a reflection of the potential that our young

people do have.

I also want to acknowledge our most important young people and I

want to thank the police officers that were involved in this

project. We have 66 children who are accompanied by their families.

These children have been integrated with their families. May I ask
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 136 of 204)

the families and the young people who are present here with us to

stand up. [Applause.] Thank you very much.

I am going to relate the stories of all these young people, which I

think are important to all of us, and indicate that it is possible

for all of us in this House and the community at large to play a

critical role in making sure that our children are part of us and

live with us. These young people were referred to as “kids living in

the streets”. I always refuse to refer to them as “street children”

because I believe that there is no street which bears a child.

Children are born out of a man and woman. Therefore no street has a


I would once more want to say that I dedicate this budget speech to

the youth of ’76 and also to these children who are with us today.

To all our youth in South Africa, we are celebrating the 30th

anniversary of the Soweto uprising. It was 1976 when we ... I am

saying “we” because I am part of that youth and I am proud to be

part of that youth and be counted with the class of ’76. That is the

youth which bravely resisted the oppressive yoke of apartheid in

general and the inferior education in particular. We pride ourselves

for the sterling contribution to our democracy and freedom.

Regarding the hon Jankielsohn, who stood in front of us today and

said he represents the people of South Africa, I want to know which

ones. As I stand here, as a youth of ’76, the vision and the hope of
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 137 of 204)

South African people lies with me. It’s in me, it flows in my

bloodstream. [Interjections.] I say I don’t know what it means.

An HON MEMBER: You have never been hijacked.


it’s about being hijacked. You were hijacked because you lived in

this country behind high walls. You were never part of us during the

apartheid era, when our people were killed every weekend and your

police and your system did not respond to the black people of this

country. [Interjections.]

I must indicate I am proud to be a South African. I can stand

against crime in this country and fight against it because I know

how it is. My parents used to be victims of mugging. Your police

were never there. We are proud to have transformed ...

[Interjections.] You can’t tell me anything. You lived and enjoyed

your education.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order! Deputy Minister,

please take your seat. [Interjections.] Order, order, hon members!

Please proceed hon Deputy Minister.


the pain of reality. Secondly, I would also like to honour the women

who braved the cold and all the weather conditions in 1956 and
1 JUNE 2006           PAGE 138 of 204)

marched to the Union Buildings. I am proud today to celebrate with

those women the 50th anniversary of the time they stood up and said,

“enough is enough” and ensured that we are able to enjoy the

democracy which we see today.

We are able to enjoy democracy together with everyone because those

women were never selfish. They made sure they fought for everyone,

even for those who were oppressing us. They made sure that slavery

in this country came to an end. They boldly said: No more

oppression; no more slavery in our country. We need to honour those

women and we need to honour the women who fought for us as the

current generation.

Our policies and strategies continue to focus on crime as part of

government’s agenda to provide a better life for all. Social crime

prevention becomes the focal point for the creation of a crime-free

environment in law-enforcement and policing. The context in which

the youth programme is currently being run needs to be reviewed in

order to include partnerships with police stations and sector

policing. The role of the station commissioners in co-ordinating

cross-cutting matters regarding schools within their precinct need

to be strengthened. We need also to welcome your bold step,

Minister, in restructuring and taking the police service to the

1 JUNE 2006            PAGE 139 of 204)

We need to appreciate the Business Against Crime for their

continuous support through the implementation of Tiisa Thuto in

order to address safety matters in the schools. This enhances our

partnership with the Department of Education on an ongoing basis. An

illustration of this is that, recently, a successful drug reduction

programme in schools was launched in Gauteng and the Western Cape

with the assistance of Tiisa Thuto.

Recently a three-year-old boy disappeared in Wallacedene whilst in

the company of his uncle. The little boy was not found for days and

his mother appealed to the communities to help her find her son. The

boy was found days later in a children’s home in another area. He

had been found wandering in the streets.

A similar incident occurred in the Free State where a two-year-old

girl from a farm outside Bloemfontein disappeared without a trace.

The little girl disappeared after she had been left with her

siblings in the care of neighbours. Her parents had gone to look for

wood. The little girl has not been found. It’s a challenge that is

not only facing the police; it’s a challenge for all of us as

different members of the communities. We cannot continue to condemn

when we don’t have any action and contribution to make towards

changing these ills.

These two incidents are just the tip of the iceberg of the

challenges of missing children handled by police daily throughout
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 140 of 204)

the provinces. In the Western Cape, we have formed a child rapid

response unit, which has a high recovery and success rate. It shows

partnerships with communities do work and can be possible. The fact

that the child in Wallacedene was found unharmed is the proof of the

turnaround strategy we have piloted and implemented, with regard to

dealing with missing children.

The Western Cape has a child rapid response programme which works

hand-in-glove with Bambanani volunteers in the efforts to deal with

issues of missing children. This has resulted in huge success

regarding missing children who were found. The children’s programme

was launched in July 2004, following the concerns that the situation

of children living and working in the streets renders them

vulnerable to involvement in crime, either as victims or offenders.

Workshops on homeless children and provincial capacity were held by

SAPS. These workshops were aimed at providing the members and other

stakeholders with skills to deal with children living on the

streets. The social crime prevention component is in the process of

developing a policy and guidelines for SAPS with regard to children

living in the streets.

Despite the effort that I have indicated, I must mention that we

continue to review our means of addressing matters concerning

children living on the streets in order to forge partnerships with
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 141 of 204)

other relevant structures. Shelters for children living on the

streets continue to be a challenge to government and communities.

The Safety and Security Ministry has participated in the Inter-

Sectoral Child Justice Committee with the view of addressing the

challenges faced by the police in ensuring their constitutional and

legal obligation to limit children kept within police custody.

We tabled a report on the situation of children being kept in

custody in Mpumalanga, Limpopo and the North West. I am happy to

announce that in the report there is a reflection that the

integrated justice system is starting to yield results.

As we are gathered here today, we are in the process of reviewing

and continuing to see whether the training on domestic violence is

indeed effective and efficient. A domestic violence training package

has been compiled and we hope that this will form part of the

commitment in improving service delivery and also making sure that

we nurture and improve our own understanding in the police service.

We need to render a quality service to victims of domestic violence

and continue to improve in a concerted, integrated multidisciplinary

and preventative way. The SAPS continues to participate in the

interdepartmental management team for the antirape strategic

framework. This framework focuses on prevention, the criminal

justice process and support to victims.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 142 of 204)

Although the prevention and the process will be conducted and

focused mainly with an intention of prevention, the component will

also co-ordinate the implementation of the responsibilities of the

SAPS in terms of the approved strategic framework.

One of the key achievements in Gauteng was the launch of the women’s

centre at Orange Farm during May 2005. The centre provides for

preventative advisory services and victim services to be provided

for in an integrated fashion.

Last year during the women’s month, the antirape strategy was

implemented in different provinces. The continuous intervention of

social crime prevention at station level enables a better

understanding and implementation of the antirape strategy.

Part of the preventative action includes a review session on the

antirape strategy, public awareness campaigns on rape and sexual

offences and workshops with regard to abuse aimed at improving

service delivery. We will continue to work with other departments

and communities in order to improve services to victims of rape and

engage in preventative actions.

I also want to indicate that we have increased our victim facility

centres at various stations and we are happy to say that that has

yielded results. But one of the key issues is that we want to

establish uniform standards that would ensure all the victim-
1 JUNE 2006            PAGE 143 of 204)

friendly facilities at various stations are safe and acceptable to

the victims themselves.

I want to touch on one of the critical issues, the issue of drug and

substance abuse. The challenge for all of us is the people who take

alcohol and then drug abuse comes up often and remains a thorny and

contributing factor to contact crimes and violent crimes in our

country. This problem manifests itself in many ways.

We also want to revisit the legalisation of taverns and shebeens,

which continue to pose a threat to our communities and schools, and

contribute to contact crimes and domestic violence. Hence, we

believe a partnership with the Department of Health, given that they

have passed a law which regulates smoking, will assist us.

The big challenge for some of our children is that they begin to

experiment with smoking especially when they witness their own

parents and elderly smoke, and then they think it is cool! The

experimenting leads later to much stronger drugs and, indeed,

without realising, they end up being addicted to the drugs.

We want to make sure that all this is addressed in a way that

improves and touches the soul of our communities. We need to declare

war against drug peddlers and drug lords, who continuously destroy

the soul of our communities and destroy our children as future

parents and leaders.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 144 of 204)

It is therefore imperative that local authorities must also exercise

their duties in enforcement of their by-laws in their entertainment

places and leisure industry. We can no longer afford to sit back and

see the moral fibre of our society and communities going down. We

need to act against crime. I must indicate that as the police we

have adopted the Act Against Crime Together campaign, because we

believe that any form of crime and any form of abuse needs the

partnerships from all of us.

We are more mindful of the need for an intensive and extensive

communication and awareness programme with regard to social crime

prevention, focusing on our members and the community. The Act

Against Crime Together campaign will be extended to other provinces.

We need to increase public awareness about the safeguarding of our

children, but also the responsibility of parents especially during

the Child Protection Week, Youth Month and, indeed, throughout the

year by focusing attention on crimes in selected areas where some

have been identified as hot spots.

Another major goal for us is to strengthen partnerships between the

public and law enforcement agencies in ensuring a safe and secure

environment. We would be more satisfied if no other messages

imprinted themselves on the memories and hearts of communities than

the following:
1 JUNE 2006            PAGE 145 of 204)

 We can no longer afford to have our children living in the

 streets. We can no longer tolerate not responding when crimes are

 committed against our children and women.

Therefore, there is a need to hasten and make sure that through our

efforts, in an integrated way, we are able to implement the

restorative justice system so as to make sure that our children

don’t turn into criminals later.

We are proud to indicate that last year we ran a campaign, which

addressed the abuse of women in our country. That operation was

termed Operation Basadi during the 16 Days of Activism, which

coincided with the United Nations’ No Violence Against Women

campaign. I am proud to announce that the operation was successful,

but also to indicate that this is the operation, that led to the

arrest of a person in the Western Cape, who happened to have raped

someone 20 years ago and was, indeed, arrested when he thought

everything was gone.

To the members, rest assured, we need to indicate, you can run but

you cannot hide from the law. The long arm of the law will catch up

with you. We want also to declare and confirm that as women, through

Operation Basadi, which is going to be rolled out nationally, we

will make sure that all perpetrators of violence against women are

being sent to jail and incarcerated because we don’t want those

individuals within our communities.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 146 of 204)

Our operation as the JPCS cluster is a way of making sure that the

partnerships protect women. This programme will not be left lying in

the files also collecting dust. We will ensure that they are able to

be unpacked and implemented in the way that meets our needs as a


As for the 66 children, may I indicate to everyone in this House,

that these are children who were referred to as street or homeless

children. We are proud to say, as the Department of Safety and

Security, that these children have been reintegrated with their

families; but not only that, we have succeeded as the police to make

sure that they go back to school. [Applause.]

The success of this project in the Western Cape shows that it is

possible. The police are committed to removing all the children from

the streets, but what is very important is that we want to ask

everybody today to partner with the police in identifying those

children and being able to reunite them with their families.

Today, while it is cold in Cape Town, those children are warm. They

are guaranteed their supper and to laugh again and enjoy the

cuddling of their mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers.


I need to indicate that because of the stress faced by our members

because of the complexities that we face in this country, we intend

to revisit the Employee Assistance service programme. We know that
1 JUNE 2006            PAGE 147 of 204)

our Employee Assistance Programme indeed enjoys a high-priority

focus because it is a proactive and reactive measure for our


Our programme intends to enhance members’ wellbeing while the

reactive programme serves members who need emotional support. The

programme also provides telephonic counselling services. We are

going to review all the services rendered to our members. I want to

indicate that ubaba Ndlovu is correct. We are addressing this

matter. One of the critical issues is to see to what extent we can

make sure that the members at the station level, who are at the

forefront of fighting crime. indeed are attended to before they

become stressed and depressed, and at the end of the day we end up

with those who are no longer in our country because of the stresses

which we are facing.

We will be able to come back next year with a programme, which is

positive and acknowledges these things. But it will also improve the

service in such a way that the families of those individuals will

continue, like all of us, to have parents; wives can have husbands;

children can have fathers, as all of us, brothers, sisters and

uncles, without losing them during the process of the jobs.


Mnu G T MADIKIZA: Sihlalo, baPhathiswa abahloniphekileyo, malungu

ale Ndlu ahloniphekileyo kunye neendwendwe zonke, mandinduluke
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 148 of 204)

ngokuqala ndithi i-UDM iyalwamkela uhlahlo lwabiwo-mali lweli sebe.

Ndingaba ndisilele ukuba andingedluli ndibulele, ndincome umsebenzi

omkhulu nomhle kangaka owenziwa ngamapolisa kweli loMzantsi Afrika.

UMphathiswa uthe gqaba-gqaba ngezigaba zotshintsho; nazo

mandizincome ngoba ziyathembisa. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph


[Mr G T MADIKIZA: Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon members of this

House and our guests at large, firstly, I would like to say that the

UDM supports this department’s Budget Vote. I would be failing in my

personal capacity if I cannot commend the wonderful job being done

by the police in South Africa. The Minister has highlighted some

changes which I also appreciate because they are promising.]

A total of R 32,5 billion is a very large budget indeed. It reflects

the vast safety and security challenges that we as a country are

facing. That amount seems so large in comparison to the budgets for

most of the other departments. One thus, therefore, expects an

overwhelming indication of service delivery in terms of safety and

security. But the problem is that somewhere between the large

national budget and the reality at station level something goes

wrong. Can we blame an inadequate budget or should we perhaps blame

individual officers of the South African Police Service? I believe

that neither of these propositions is correct; the problem must lie

somewhere else.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 149 of 204)

If we take the R32,5 billion and we cannot ensure that every police

station is functioning with the proper levels of basic equipment

such as vehicles and bulletproof vests, then there is a very big

management problem. How can we expect delivery from ill-equipped and

overworked police officers? The evidence of how this affects

individuals and station morale is reflected in the intolerably high

rate of suicides, family murders and other violent incidents

involving members of the SAPS. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Mr M S MOATSHE: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister,

members of the South African Police Service, comrades and friends,

the governing principles in the Constitution, Chapter 11, section

198(a) states that -

 National security must reflect the resolve of South Africans, as

 individuals and as a nation, to live as equals, to live in peace

 and harmony, to be free from fear and want and to seek a better


Section 205(3) of the Constitution further outlines that –

 The objects of the police service are to prevent, combat and

 investigate crime, to maintain public order, to protect and secure

 the inhabitants of the Republic and their property, and to uphold

 and enforce the law.
1 JUNE 2006          PAGE 150 of 204)

Surely, all South Africans must celebrate the Constitution on its

10th anniversary with pride.

To ensure the realisation of these principles, the police must be

capacitated and resourced to meet the challenges of transformation

throughout the country. In line with these challenges, the portfolio

committee as the driving component in this process developed and

launched the station-monitoring tool to improve oversight of police

stations. This station-monitoring tool takes the form of a

questionnaire that covers a range of issues and includes questions

relating to the infrastructure and material resources of the

station, staffing, the work of the detectives, the relationship with

the community and training on various aspects within the station.

We view this monitoring tool as a mirror for the portfolio

committee, Parliament, the police and the safety and security

services in general to look at and reflect on service delivery to

better the lives of all South Africans. We urge Members of

Parliament, including those in provinces, to use this tool in their

constituencies whenever visiting police stations.

Sediriswa se sa tlhokomediso diteišheneng tsa mapodisa, se akaretsa

go bona diphetogo di obamelwa, di tlhaloganngwa e bile di

dirafadiwa. Go lebilwe diphetogo di tshwana le tekatekano mo tirong

go se kgetololo go ya ka bong le fa e le go ya ka mmala jaaka e le

maikaelelo a puso.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 151 of 204)

Ka nako ya kgetololo, tlhaolele, mapodisa a ne a katisiwa ka mokgwa

wa mogwanto le tshidilo ya mmele, thuto kgolo ya bona e le go

tshwara e seng go tlisa kagiso le tshireletso. Makgowa a ne a

tlhatlhosiwa go nna bo kapotene, sajene, majoro sajene, lefotenente,

borikadiri, fa ma Aforika a tlhago a ne a felela mo bo sajeneng.

Puso e e eteletsweng pele ke mokgatlo wa ANC e tlisitse diphetogo ka

go aga sepodisa se le sengwe, se katisiwa ka mokgwa o le mongwe o o

tswanang. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[The purpose of the campaign with regard to this monitoring tool at

police stations is to ensure that transformation is embraced,

understood and implemented. The changes that are expected as part of

government policies include, among other things, employment equity,

gender equity and, last but not least, racial discrimination.

During the apartheid era police officers were given physical

training whereby they only performed marching exercises, which was

the main feature of their training course. Another focus was on how

to teach them to make an arrest. Peace and security were not the

main concerns of their training course. In the past, whites were

promoted to the rank of captain, major-general, lieutenant and

brigadier, while indigenous Africans were only confined to the rank

of sergeant. The ANC-led government has transformed the police

service into a nonracial service, which uses one common training

1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 152 of 204)

Key areas for training are problem-oriented policing and a focus on

human rights. The training methodology seeks to build competencies

and consists of lectures, case studies, role-playing, simulations

and group work focusing on training for reality. All learning

programmes are needs-based and are being aligned to unit standards

leading through credit accumulation to qualification on the national

qualification framework.

In terms of the Domestic Violence Act, every police station must

have a domestic violence register detailing all domestic violence

incidents that are reported at the station. The police station is

also required to compile a list of organisations that can offer

counselling and other support services to complainants of domestic


During 2005, 273 complaints were received against police officials

allegedly not complying with their duties in terms of the Act. In

most of these cases disciplinary action was taken against members.

In the rest of the cases the Independent Complaints Directorate,

ICD, instructed that no disciplinary action must be taken. To reduce

these case loads, more members need to be trained - hence the

support of this budget by the ANC.

A total of 227 victim-friendly facilities have been established at

some police stations. SAPS aim to establish an additional 150 new
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 153 of 204)

facilities by this financial year – hence the support of the ANC for

this budget.

In a new upgraded police station, provisions are made for private

facilities where victims can provide statements and access

information. Many of these facilities still need furniture,

equipment and transport for those who will need to be transported to

hospitals, clinics or other places of safety.

The SAPS victim support programme has been reviewed to ensure that

SAPS training and guidelines support the victims’ charter of rights.

The youth crime prevention and development programme that defines

SAPS roles and responsibilities has been developed and it is linked

to the training of SAPS members to deal with child offenders and

youth crime prevention.

Some 1 771 commanders and trainers are trained to train remaining

members on the Department of Veterans Affairs, DVA, implementation.

Since 2000, training on domestic violence forms an integral part of

the basic training programme for new recruits.

During 2005-06, 11 000 new recruits underwent the basic training on

domestic violence. Seventy per cent of all members attached to the

family violence, child protection and sexual offences units

completed specialised training including handling and investigating
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 154 of 204)

cases involving domestic violence. Twenty-four trainers from nine

provinces have been trained in 2005 on how to present a course and

will therefore present training throughout the country. Some 1 568

members were trained on the handling of domestic violence incidents

during specialised courses in 2005.

In conclusion, allow me to congratulate the super-cop of the Elite

Free Falling Squad, Captain Thandeka Majola, who became the first

policewoman to excel in free-fall parachuting. She is now a member

of the counterassault team subsidiary of the SAPS protection and

security services division. Captain Thandeka Majola is the first

member of the SAPS and the South African National Defence Force to

have successfully completed the basic free-fall course with the

world-renowned 44 Brigade of the SANDF. The ANC supports the budget.

Thank you. [Applause.]

Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, as we are debating the safety and

security Budget Vote this afternoon, a nine-year-old girl is in a

coma, fighting for her life after being raped and brutalised to the

extent that a hysterectomy was being considered at one stage.

On the SABC 3 news bulletin of 30 May, it was stated that the

affected community has lost its confidence in the police as far as

the protection of their children is concerned. It is a crime against

humanity to target defenceless children, sexually violate them and

rob them of their innocence. While some are blaming parents for
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 155 of 204)

crimes committed against their children, it is nevertheless the

responsibility of the police to keep our communities safe and to

teach criminals that crime does not pay.

If it had not been for a recent meeting that I had with Commissioner

Jackie Selebi, where he presented me with an enlightening account of

the difficulties and constraints, which the police are facing on a

daily basis, then we would have voted against this budget to

register the ACDPs’ protest, disapproval and unhappiness about the

failure of the police to make our streets, communities and trains


It is because of this understanding and sympathy that we have

decided to encourage the committed, loyal and hard-working members

of the police by voting for this budget. The ACDP’s plea to the hon

Minister is to continually help the police with their investigative

skills and abilities to ensure that their cases obtain convictions.

Amongst those whose convictions we want to see, are the cruel thugs

who threw passengers out of moving trains and those who this week

hanged a security guard on a tree in Germiston for choosing to

exercise his constitutional right to work while others chose not to


The hon Minister must ensure that only the most efficient and

capable police investigate these heinous crimes to enable judges to
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 156 of 204)

convict and impose the harshest sentences possible – sentences that

will send a clear message to would-be criminals that such acts will

not be tolerated in this country. I thank you, Chairperson.


Mr S MAHOTE: Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Minister for

Safety and Security, hon members, officials of the Department of

Safety and Security, invited guests, this Budget Vote before us in

this august House today comes against the background of intense

clamouring for both human and material resources, immense scrutiny

by stakeholders within the safety and security sector, and the

customary hysteria of the opposition, particularly the DA, as to how

our ANC-led government should ensure the safety and security of all

and sundry in South Africa.

At the same time, our populace is not spared any respite by a media

that is consumed by the fallacious notion that crime sells. As a

government elected by the overwhelming majority of the people and -

this is where we have to make a distinction - the majority who had

historically borne the brunt of social crimes because of apartheid

and social engineering, we are morally obliged to be sensitive to

their concerns, but in a truthful manner.

Moreover, in recent weeks a dangerous phenomenon has taken root

within the ranks of those on my left here, who, through their
1 JUNE 2006           PAGE 157 of 204)

propaganda machinery, have created a psychosis of fear in the minds

of our citizens. Quite frankly, this is indeed very dangerous.

Allow me to elucidate a few things here today. Firstly and most

importantly, President Thabo Mbeki has, in his state of the nation

address on 3 February 2006, underscored once again the critical

importance of the safety and security of all South Africans. In this

regard he mentioned, in particular, the challenges in relation to

social crime prevention measures.

To give further credence to government’s commitment, the President

alluded to other measures, that is, integrated law enforcement in

priority areas such as drug trafficking and substance abuse. Yes,

Chairperson, suffice to say that as a member of the Safety and

Security Portfolio Committee, I align myself with the measures and

objectives articulated by the hon Minister Nqakula in his opening

address here today.

Allow me to focus on the strategies the SA Police Service has

adopted and implemented to ensure that our people, firstly develop

and understanding of crime and its causes, and secondly, to allow

our communities a meaningful role in crime prevention. Obviously, at

the heart of these initiatives is the vexing question of delivery.

Everyone present here today will agree that crime permeates all

strata of society, hence the need for concerted programmes.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 158 of 204)

One such programme is sector policing, which was introduced in 2002-

03. Central to this is the objective to discourage the occurrence of

all crimes through the provisions of a proactive and responsive

policing service. Furthermore, it augments visible policing and has,

since its inception, not only ensured increased police visibility,

but also gave communities a greater sense of safety and security,

particularly in areas of social crime. Moreover, it seeks to reduce

opportunities to commit crime.

In terms of this programme the most skilled and competent police

officers are deployed at police stations, because ultimately it is

where an investigation succeeds or fails. As the ANC we believe that

sector policing can and should reduce the still too high incidents

of crime against women and children, as well as ensure the proper

investigation of sexual offences such as rape and indecent assault.

Any democratic society is measured by the extent to which the people

contribute to efforts or lack of it of government. In South Africa,

by extension, the SA Police Service is no exception. In this regard

I believe we have made great strides in relation to community

development, community policing forums and the building of community

safety centres.

In regard to crime prevention development programmes, we have, as a

portfolio committee, witnessed some of the successes of the
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 159 of 204)

development and implementation of community-based crime prevention


It has made significant contribution towards intersectoral

operations. It serves as a tool for local service providers such as

local government to integrate community-based crime prevention

strategies in their core business. In some communities we have seen

participation through the application of indigenous knowledge.

Ewe, Sihlalo, nangona iintatheli namaphephandaba ezama ukunika

umfanekiso ongemhlanga, thina njengombutho i-ANC sikhuthazwa

ngakumbi ngumsebenzi omhle owenziwa zezi ngala maqonga eliso lomzi.

Aba ngabahlali abaqhelekileyo, abancama ixesha, amandla

kwanokhuseleko lwabo besilwa ubukrelemnqa. Baqinisekisa belumkisa

ngeenkqubo ezikhoyo, bemanyene nabahlali ekulweni ubukrelemnqa.

Bancedisana namapolisa ukwakha ubudlelwana noosomashishini kwakunye

nabanye ababandakanyekayo ekuhlaleni, bebonisana ngeendlela zokulwa

ubundlobongela. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[Yes, Chairperson, although the media is trying to paint the wrong

picture, the ANC-led government is encouraged by the good work from

these community policing forums. These are ordinary citizens, who

sacrifice their time, energy and safety to fight crime. They ensure

that proper procedure is followed with regard to the existing

programmes, while working with the communities in fighting crime.

They also liaise with the police in building relations with
1 JUNE 2006            PAGE 160 of 204)

businessmen and other stakeholders in the communities to find ways

of combating crime.]

In fact, independent research shows that they are the real unsung

heroes and heroines in areas where there is a decline in particular

in social crime. Indeed, it is precisely these CPFs, as they are

popularly known, who will be able to provide any respected crime

reporter with accurate information on the extent of crime and even

delinquency in their areas. These are the brave individuals who

encounter the material life of misery of the masses, which remains

the breeding ground of crime in our country.

Before we distort crime figures, for whatever reason, let us spare a

thought for them. As a portfolio committee we are naturally

concerned at the persistent levels of brazen and violent crimes that

still dominate the headlines. However, we are also aware, and

independent research attests to this, that the SA Police Service’s

success ratio on this front is indeed increasing. We have to commend

them, and we are naturally excited, but also cautious.

These achievements should serve as an illustration of our ANC-led

government’s commitment proactively to block the modus operandi

those criminals employ against our people. In this regard, however,

we would like to see a streamlined, integrated approach between the

agencies of safety and security, justice, social development and

correctional services.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 161 of 204)

In conclusion, we want to reiterate our viewpoint and in terms of

our oversight and monitoring role, declare that all of these

initiatives will in fact be hollow if our people do not have faith

and trust in the SA Police Service. Hence we want to impress upon

the leadership of the SA Police Service, to ensure that mechanisms

are put in place to revive their flagging integrity. The ANC

supports the budget. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Voorsitter, in 1993-94 het Suid-Afrika ’n nuwe

bedeling betree. Ons spog graag met ons nuwe Grondwet en hoe

wonderlik dit is. In artikel 205(3) van die Grondwet word bepaal dat

die doelstellings van die polisie is om misdaad te voorkom en die

inwoners van die Republiek en hul eiendom te beskerm en te beveilig.

Die vraag is egter of hierdie grondwetlike plig nagekom word. Kyk

ons na die misdaad in Suid-Afrika sedert 1993-94 dan sien ons dat

misdaad teen individue skrikwekkend toegeneem het. Aanranding met

die opset om ernstig te beseer het toegeneem met 15,6%. Gewone

aanranding het toegeneem met 33,7% terwyl roof met verswarende

omstandighede met 50% toegeneem het. Gewone roof het toegeneem met

178%. Geweld teen veral vroue is uiters kommerwekkend, want sedert

1993 het verkragtings met 23,1% toegeneem. Verlede jaar is 55 114

vroue verkrag. Dit beteken dat daar elke 10 minute ’n vrou in Suid-

Afrika verkrag word. Na die tydsduur van hierdie debat moet ons weet

dat daar 16 vroue in Suid-Afrika verkrag is – dit maak van Suid-

Afrika ’n gevaarlike plek vir vroue.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 162 of 204)

Die afgelope vyf jaar was daar 4 106 plaasaanvalle en 560 boere is

op hul plase vermoor. Dit maak boerdery in Suid-Afrika die

gevaarlikste beroep, nie net in Suid-Afrika nie, maar in die wêreld.

Intussen gaan die regering voort en hy sluit kommando-eenhede.

Die agb Minister het netnou hier gesê dat daar begroot is om 8 000

reserviste te kan ontplooi om landelike beveiliging te doen. Ek wil

vir die agb Minister vra: hoe gaan 8 000 reserviste dieselfde werk

kan doen wat 25 000 kommandolede gedoen het? Dit is ontmoontlik. Die

regering gaan voort, wetende dat die polisie nie die infrastruktuur

en die mannekrag het om behoorlike landelike beveiliging toe te pas


Van huisbrake wil ek nie eens praat nie. Hoeveel keer moet ’n mens

nie in die media verneem van mense wat sê dat die polisie sê hulle

kom nie eens uit vir inbrake nie. Dit is direk strydig met artikel

205 van die Grondwet. Die agb Minister en die polisie het die stryd

teen misdaad verloor. U kom nie u grondwetlike plig na nie, agb

Minister. Dit word verder weerspieël dat volgens die SA Instituut

vir Rasse-aangeleenthede sekuriteitsbeamptes sedert 1997 met 150%

toegeneem het. Tans is daar drie sekuriteitsbeamptes vir elke

polisiebeampte. Die publiek moet nou al so ver gaan om ’n

privaatmaatskappy te huur om sekere moorde te ondersoek, bloot omdat

die polisie nie genoegsame kundigheid het nie. Agb Minister, u kom

nie u grondwetlike plig na nie.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 163 of 204)

Ek wil die stelling maak dat as die sekuriteitsindustrie môre

toemaak, het ons algehele anargie in hierdie land. Die ontstellende

feit is egter dat slegs 8%-9% van misdade suksesvol in ons howe

vervolg word. Dit beteken dat misdadigers ’n 92%-kans het om weg te

kom met misdaad in Suid-Afrika.

Die ergste nog is dat as lede van die publiek hulself verdedig, dan

kan hulle gearresteer word, byvoorbeeld as hulle ’n misdadiger sou

doodmaak in hul huise. Dit het in Pretoria gebeur. Die polisie sê

vir die misdadigers: moenie bekommerd wees nie, ons sal julle


Van die VF Plus se kant af wil ek wel vir daardie lede van die

polisiemag, daardie manne en vroue wat uit hulle pad uitgaan om hul

land te dien, dankie sê dat hulle ten spyte van die moeilike

omstandighede en ten spyte van die stres wat op hulle geplaas word,

steeds puik diens lewer. Vir die ander wat nie hul werk doen nie, is

dit tyd om die mag te verlaat. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans

speech follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, in 1993-94 South Africa entered a

new dispensation. We like to boast about our new Constitution and

how wonderful it is. In section 205(3) of the Constitution it is

determined that the objects of the police are to prevent crime and

to protect and safeguard the citizens of the Republic and their

1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 164 of 204)

However, the question is whether this constitutional obligation is

being fulfilled. If we look at crime in South Africa since 1993-94,

we see that crime against individuals has increased alarmingly.

Assault with the intention to do grievous bodily harm has increased

by 15,6%. Ordinary assault has increased by 33,7% while assault with

aggravating circumstances increased by 50%. Ordinary robbery

increased by 178%. Violence against women, especially, is extremely

worrying, as rape has increased by 23,1% since 1993. Last year 55

114 women were raped. This means that in South Africa a woman is

raped every 10 minutes. We should know that during this debate 16

women will be raped in South Africa – this makes South Africa a

dangerous place for women.

During the past five years there were 4 106 attacks on farms and 560

farmers were murdered on their farms. This makes farming South

Africa’s most dangerous occupation, not only in South Africa, but

also in the world. In the meanwhile the government continues to

close down commando units.

The hon Minister said a short while ago that they budgeted for 8 000

reservists to be deployed to undertake rural safeguarding. I would

like to ask the hon Minister how 8 000 reservists are going to do

the work that 25 000 commando members used to do? It is impossible.

The government continues, knowing that the police do not have the

infrastructure and the manpower to implement proper rural

1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 165 of 204)

I do not even want to talk about housebreaking. How many times does

one not note in the media that people say the police do not even

come out to them if a break-in occurs? This is in direct conflict

with section 205 of the Constitution. The hon Minister and the

police have lost the fight against crime. You are not complying with

your constitutional duty, hon Minister. This is further reflected by

the 150% increase in security guards since 1997, according to the SA

Institute for Race Relations. At present there are three security

guards for every police officer. The public now have to go so far as

hiring private companies to investigate certain murders, simply

because the police do not have enough expertise. Hon Minister, you

are not complying with your constitutional duty.

I would like to state that if the security industry closed down

tomorrow, we would have total anarchy in this country. The most

upsetting thing, however, is that only 8% to 9% of crimes are

successfully prosecuted in our courts. This means that criminals

have a 92% chance of getting away with crime in South Africa.

By far the worst thing is that if the public defend themselves, then

they can be arrested, when for example they kill criminals in their

homes. It happened in Pretoria. The police are saying to criminals:

Do not worry, we will protect you.

From the side of the FF Plus I would like to say to those members of

the police force, those men and women who go out of their way to
1 JUNE 2006          PAGE 166 of 204)

serve their country, thank you for providing excellent service,

despite the difficult circumstances and the stress which is placed

on them. To those who do not do their job, it is time to leave the

force. Thank you.]

Mong M T LIKOTSI: Modulasetulo Mokgahlo wa PAC o amohela tekanyetso

ena. Ha e fete tekanyetso ena. Lefatshe la rona le tletse

botlokotsebe. Ke ka mokgwa oo re hlokang seponesa ho sereletsa

setjhaba. Seponesa sa rona se hloka tshehetso yohle ho rona re le

setjhaba ho hlakola botlokotsebe. Bahlomphehi re tlameha ho hlahola

botlokotsebe ka metso.

Re tlameha mmoho ho fedisa boqitolo bo etswang ke ditlokotsebe

naheng ya rona. Re tlameile ho hana ho buswa ke ditlokotsebe. Mmuso

o tlameha ho fa maponesa matla a ho bontsha ditlokotsebe tsena moo

motlwang wa pula o tswang teng. (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs


[Mr M T LIKOTSI: Chairperson, the PAC accepts this Budget Vote. Let

this Budget Vote be passed. There is a lot of crime in our country.

That is the reason we need the police to protect our community. Our

police force needs all the support from us as a community so that

they can eradicate crime. Hon members, we have to uproot crime.

We have to stop the crimes that these criminals are committing in

our country. We should not allow criminals to rule our lives. The
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 167 of 204)

government should give the police the powers to deal accordingly

with these criminals.]

Bahlonitshwa masiyeke ukudlala apha. Masiqeqeshe bonke aba bantu

baziindlavini apha ekuhlaleni. [Hon members, let us stop playing

games here. Let us train all these people who are ruffians in our


The police need our support. We cannot be seen to be giving

criminals an upper hand over the law-abiding citizens. If we as the

nation are serious about uprooting crime, we have to work closely

with the police and nip crime in the bud. We reiterate as the PAC

that there should be no place for criminals in our country - blue,

white or any colour of criminal.

Maponesa a etsa mosebetsi o kgabane, ke bo mautlwela, ba thusa ho

fedisa ditlhekefetso tsa basadi le bana. Ba sereleditse naha ena ka

maphelo a bona. Maponesa a re thusitse ho tshwara baferekanyi ba

Boeremag ba neng ba itlhophisitse, ho hlokisa naha ena ya rona


Maponesa a eleng ditlokotsebe ha a emise ka botloko tsebe, hore re

tsebe ho re re ba tshehetse jwalo ka setjhaba. PAC e kgothatsa

seponesa hore se tie, se matlafale. PAC ere setjhaba se se thuse ho

thibela polao ya maponesa ka hore se fane ka sebaka sa ho ipata ho

ditlakotsebe. (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 168 of 204)

[The police force is doing a great job, they are spies, and they

help to curb the abuse of women and children. They put their lives

at risk to protect us in this country. The police helped us by

arresting Boeremag villains who were prepared to subvert our


Policepersons that are involved in crime should stop, so that we as

a nation can give them support. The PAC encourages the police force

to be strong and powerful. The PAC appeals to the community to help

them to stop this carnage of our policemen and policewomen by

furnishing them with information about these criminals’ hiding


Ms S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Chairperson, greetings to all our children

today. As reported in the South African Yearbook for 2005-06 in

September 2005, the SAPS released the crime statistics of 2004-05

showing a decrease in most crimes, but an increase in rape and drug-

related crimes. These statistics have certainly been altered as a

result of the security strike. The MF called for the immediate

settlement of the security guard issue to restore balance to the

crime situation in South Africa.

The MF applauds the SAPS for the strong role it plays in reducing

crime in South Africa, so as to be a bigger deterrent for rape and

drug-related crimes. We hereby ask for more intense punishment to be

imposed on criminals of this nature as possible deterrents. We
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 169 of 204)

suggest looking at the criminal justice system abroad that has

successfully managed to reduce crime and introduce pilot projects in

line with these lessons learned to deter crime and bring justice to

South Africa.

As noted in the President’s state of the nation address and in the

MT Budget Policy Statement in October 2005 of the Minister of

Finance and in his budget speech for 2006:

  Safety and security remains a priority in the South African

  agenda. Crime is notably a serious problem and in South Africa

  government is determined to tackle it.

We are pleased that the border line issues are being addressed as

well as the updating of SAPS vehicles and facilities, especially IT.

We believe that the budget allocated to the department, together

with the department’s intention, will address, redress and transform

the SAPS and reduce crime in South Africa. We will have even better

statistics to report next year.

The MF will always stand by you, Minister, in assisting to curb

crime. The MF supports the Budget Vote. Thank you.

Mr S E KHOLWANE: Somlomo, Ndvuna kanye neliSekela lakho, malunga

eSishayamtsetfo, bokhomishane bemaprovinsi labakhona kanye

nalabachamuka eTiko Letekuphepha ... [Speaker, Minister and Deputy
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 170 of 204)

Minister, hon members, provincial delegates, and everyone present,

including visitors from the Department of Safety and Security ...]

... I also want to take this opportunity to greet the young people,

men and women who have visited us today in this Parliament. You are

more than welcome. [Applause.]

Our first democratically elected President, Nelson Mandela, will not

only go down in history for the 27 consecutive years he spent in

prison, without ever forsaking his ideals. He will also be

remembered because he was capable of stripping from his heart all

the venom that such unjust punishment can cause to accumulate. He

will also be remembered for his magnanimity and the wisdom he showed

in brilliantly leading his self-sacrificing and heroic people when

the hour of victory could no longer be contained. He was deeply

convinced that South Africa couldn’t be built on hatred and revenge.

We cannot lose sight of the fact that structural inequalities built

over years into the fabric of our society by colonial and apartheid

policies have contributed to the high levels of poverty and inequity

in our country. It also undermined the position of women, and

ultimately played a major contributing role to our high rate of

crimes against women and children.

The 51st National Conference of the ANC - not the DA - resolved that

we needed to intensify our campaigns to reduce crime against women
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 171 of 204)

and children, the abuse of the elderly and family violence. Indeed,

the SAPS strategic plan for 2005-2010 focuses exactly on the

reduction of the incidence of crimes against women and children. We

are pleased about that.

With regard to the detective services, there must be an intensive

investigation and analysis of crimes and assaults of a sexual

nature. The forensic science laboratory services rendered could

assist the court trial, particularly in matters involving women and

children, in order to secure convictions.

Notwithstanding the fact that women and children are often lumped

together as vulnerable groups, it is important to separate them. Of

course, this is precisely because their needs and interest are not

the same and present different behavioural challenges in policing


As we engage in this Budget debate, we should note that this week is

children´s protection week in South Africa, whilst noting that today

is International Children´s Day. Therefore, I want to add my voice

of support to all abused children whilst sending a stern warning to

those who continue to abuse our women and children.

Lesimo sebantfwana sinenselele lenkhulu emphakatsini kanye

nangendlela umbutfo wetekuphepha kufanele usebente ngakhona.

Kufanele sisho kwekutsi umtsetfo kanye neMtsetfosisekelo uyabavikela
1 JUNE 2006           PAGE 172 of 204)

bantfwana kungakhatsalekile kutsi ngibo yini nome cha laba

labagangile okanye labahlukunyetiwe. (Translation of Siswati

paragraph follows.)

[The plight of children is a very serious one in our society, but so

are the strategies adopted by the Department of Safety and Security

to combat crimes against women and children. I must mention that

both the law and the Constitution protect the rights of children,

regardless of whether they had been abused before or were in the


We are aware that although tough crimes against children occur in

all communities, it’s clear that children in poor communities are

more at risk due to structural features of poor environments that

raise the risk of abuse.

We know that we are staying in overcrowded areas and sometimes we

bring nonfamily members into our homes so that we are able to

increase our income at the end of the day, and that results directly

in the abuse of children.

The 1956 women’s march was a turning point in the history of the

matters of women in this country, hence the 50th Anniversary

celebration this year. Since then women in South Africa have waged a

gallant struggle and as a consequence they counted a lot of gains in

terms of rights enshrined in the Constitution.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 173 of 204)

Siyabonga bomake ngeligalelo lenu emzabalazweni, silapha lamuhla

ngenca yenu. Alibongwe! [We thank the women for their continued

efforts in the struggle; we are here today because of you. Praise!]

HON MEMBERS: Igama lamakhosikazi! [The name of women!]

In South Africa women were once treated as second-class citizens,

destined to serve the wishes of others rather than to achieve their

own goals. Today, all South Africans enjoy equality under the law,

and we work each day to make equality a fact of life for every man

and woman in this country.

Today South African women work together to speak out on the

difficulties they face. And even more important, they offer

solutions to those problems and do not just speak up about them.

Malunga eSishayamtsetfo, ngekwetibalo teLitiko Letekuphepha

kuyakhanye kutsi lizinga lemacala ekugetjengwa kwabomake liyehla

ngaphandle kwekutsi lizinga lemacala ekudlwengulwa kwabomake

liyenyuka. Uyaye uve labanye batsi ngendlela bomake labagcoka ngayo,

ngiko lokubabangela kutsi badlwengulwe.

Kodvwa mine ngishaya ngendvuku phansi ngitsi cha, loko akusilo nani

liciniso. Labobabe labagagadlela timbuti, tinkhomo, netinja tisuke

tigcokeni loku lokuheha labo bobabe? Nangabe ukhona lonemphendvulo

yaloko mhlayimbe natsi singavuma-ke kutsi lokugcoka kwabomake ngiko
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 174 of 204)

lokuyinkinga. Siyati kutsi tinkhomo netimbuti nato setiyagagadlelwa,

sifundze kanyenti emaphepheni ngaloko. Akusilo nani liciniso kutsi

ngulokugcoka kwabomake loku lokwenta kutsi bagagadlelwe.

Siyayibonga kakhulu iWestern Cape Nethiwekhi mayelana nekulwa

nekugetjengwa kwabomake, nekuchumana netinhlangano kanye nebantfu

bonkhana labasebentela kucaphelisa bantfu ngekugetjengwa kwabomake,

kanye naletinye tinhlangano. Sitsi kufanele tichubeke tente njalo.

Umphakatsi wetfu kufanele wati kahle hle kutsi bomake kanye

nebantfwana akusibo bantfu bekugetjengwa, nabo banelilungelo

leligcwele njengatsi sonkhe lekutsi baphile kuleNingizimu Afrika

yetfu. (Translation of Siswati paragraphs follows.)

[Hon members, according to the statistics of the Department of

Safety and Security it is clear that the rate of crimes committed

against women is decreasing despite the fact that the rate of rape

cases is on the rise. This is commonly blamed, though wrongly so, on

women dressing inappropriately.

I disagree! That is in no way correct. What about those men who

commit bestiality by raping goats, cows, and dogs? What would these

animals be wearing to seduce these men? If there is anyone who can

answer that, then maybe they can convince us that women are raped as

a result of the way they dress.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 175 of 204)

We would also like to thank the Western Cape security network for

vehemently taking up the fight against crimes committed against

women, and working together with organisations and the community at

large to educate people about these crimes. We urge them to continue

the good work. Society needs to have a clear understanding that

women and children are not to be abused as they have rights that

protect them, just like the rest of us in South Africa.]

Hon members, the government’s intervention by creating sexual

offences courts for cases of assaulted, abused and raped children

should be applauded by all of us, including the opposition. The SAPS

has a very informative website, though most of our people cannot

access that information.

Therefore the critical role of communication technologies cannot be

overemphasised in empowering women with information to defend

themselves against the perpetrators of crimes. Therefore, the roll-

out of MPCC becomes critically important, including the radical

reduction of illiteracy in our society.

One must say that we should ensure that we are being more generous,

more fraternal and more humane. Let all of us, MPs in particular,

move out of our trenches and support the effort of the department.

In fact, we should be the catalyst for ensuring that the war against

this crime is won decisively.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 176 of 204)

There is no use in coming to this podium and blaming the department

or the SAPS. We should be playing a critical role as MPs, including

the opposition, so that when we go into our constituency period we

ensure that we talk and educate our communities to assist the police

in the difficult tasks that face them every day. The ANC supports

the Budget. [Applause.]

Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson ... [Interjections.] Chairperson, I can

see the hon Bloem is still in the House. I want to say to him that

he knows I like him very much. Regarding our altercation, we will

deal with it outside this House. So nothing is taken seriously, and

I understand the spirit in which he addressed me.

Chairperson, hon Minister and members, the SA Police Service is

rendering one of the most important services in our nation and they

should be commended for their hard work. They prevent, combat and

investigate crime; maintain public order; protect and secure the

inhabitants and their property; and they uphold and enforce the law.

One of the most serious issues that must be addressed, hon Minister

and your department, is the salary scale of police officers. A

constable with less than two years’ service earns R1 600 a month, a

sergeant earns between R3 000 and R3 500, and an inspector earns

between R4 500 and R5 000 per month. This, hon Minister, is

unacceptable. Most police officers, especially detectives, have a

massive workload. The entire Athlone police detective branch have
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 177 of 204)

opted, according to a report, to join a patrol unit rather than face

piles of case dockets, often amounting to about 700 new cases each


There are many police officers who have left the SAPS to start their

own security companies, and that is why we have a proliferation of

such companies. With reference to Programme 2, Visible Policing, the

FD would like the police to become much more visible in our

communities. Just a week ago I reported a case of domestic violence

to the Phillipi police station about a lady who had a court

interdict against her husband, and absolutely nothing was done about

this. With these few words, hon Minister, the FD supports your

Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mnr R J KING: Voorsitter, Suid-Afrika ry tans die golf van

finansiële sukses soos selde tevore wat betref groei, die

randwaarde, goudprys, aandelemarksuksesse, lae rentekoerse en

hoogtepunte weekliks op die geldmarkte; en ons Minister van Finasies

deel geskenke uit wat selfs Kersvader blosend laat.

Selde nog was omstandighede só gunstig vir beleggings, vir bou en

vir regmaak wat verkeerd is. Die regte tyd is nou. Wie nie ‘n oorlog

wen onder optimale onstandighede nie, sal sekerlik faal as die gety

teen hom draai, en tog is hierdie regering besig om die stryd op

twee dodelik belangrike fronte sienderoë te verloor - en ‘n land wat

dié geveg verloor, sal nooit ‘n wenland wees nie.
1 JUNE 2006            PAGE 178 of 204)

Suid-Afrika verloor die stryd teen armoede en Suid Afrika verloor

die stryd teen misdaad: die twee euwels wat in simbiose hand aan

hand loop. Agb Jankielsohn het met maar enkele gevalle aan u probeer

voorhou die trauma en wanhoop wat opklink uit die letterlik honderde

skrywes van misdaadslagoffers wat op die DA se lessenaar beland.

Die inhoud van hierdie skrywes vertel saam gelees ‘n rillerverhaal

van ‘n rampokkerland waar misdaad onbeheers floreer. Daar is

deurlopend ernstige klagtes oor die gebrek aan dienslewering by

menige polisiekantore en gevolglik indringende vrae oor die polisie

se betroubaarheid en integriteit.

Ek wil vandag vir die minister sê, ’n polisiediens wat nie die

vertroue en die agting van die gemeenskap kan wen nie, kan nie

wenners teen misdaad wees nie, en slaag nie die mees basiese toets

van ‘n suksesvolle polisiediens nie. Ons het ‘n polisiediens

getreiter deur ‘n vertrouensbreuk met die kliënte wat hulle moet

bedien enersyds, en wat ál meer die slagoffers is van direkte,

arrogante aanslae deur misdadigers andersyds.

Ons wil u help, minister, want verloor ons hier, verloor ons almal

saam. Moenie verder wegskram van misdaadstatistiek nie. Ons moet vir

ons polisie vars mikpunte kan stel waarby streng gehou moet word.

Ons soek ten minste 150 000 aktiewe polisielede op straat wat goed

en mededingend besoldig word en vir wie meriete en goeie diens

bevordering beteken.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 179 of 204)

Haal politieke oorwegings uit polisiebesluite. Laat die demografie

in die polisiekantoor lyk soos die gemeenskap wat hy bedien en laat

die polisie die taal praat van die omliggende gemeenskap. Daar moet

metodes gevind word om die publiek te vergoed vir die astronomiese

uitgawes om misdaad te bestry en slagoffers van misdaad sal gehelp

moet word met fisieke en geestelike bystand.

Die vernietiging van die kommando’s hét toe ‘n liederlike leemte in

die veiligheidsnetwerk geruk. Plaasmoorde neem weer toe. So pas

hierdie week was daar die gruwelik gewelddadige moord, op die Van

Tonders in Bethlehem.

Kyk asseblief na die DA se plan vir landelike veiligheid, minister,

en stel ‘n spesialisafdeling in vir grens- en landelike veiligheid

soos ons in die voorlegging aan u uiteensit. Elke koerant, elke

nuusberig, elke persoonlike gesprek, elke dag - misdaad, moord


Ons nasie word afgestomp aan trauma en hartseer, en die agb lid Van

Wyk kom sê waaragtig vir ons sy verstaan nie die simpatie van my agb

kollega Jankielsohn nie. Ek kan alleen u minagting en

verontwaardiging met agb Jankielsohn se aanhalings van

misdaadslagoffers se noodoproepe verstaan, indien dit beteken óf dat

u self nie sulke skrywes ontvang nie, óf dat u geen simpatie met die

slagoffers van misdaad het nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]
1 JUNE 2006            PAGE 180 of 204)

Dan dink ek dis werklik u plig om vir die Parlement te sê waar lê u

simpatie as dit nie by die slagoffers is nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] En

verwag u regtig van ons in die DA om die slagoffers van misdaad te

versaak? Die skrif is aan die muur, minister. U kan waaragtig nie

weer soos laasjaar u hande in die lug gooi en verantwoordelikheid

misken nie. Iets baie drasties sal gedoen moet word voor hierdie

gety gaan omswaai. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans

paragraphs follows.)

[Mr R J KING: Chairperson, rarely before has South Africa ridden the

wave of financial success as at present with regard to growth, the

rand value, gold price, stock market highs, low interest rates,

weekly peaks on the money markets; and our Minister of Finance is

handing out presents that even has Father Christmas blushing.

Rarely before have circumstances been as favourable for investments,

for construction and for repairing what is wrong. The opportune time

is now. If you cannot win a war when optimal circumstances prevail,

then you will certainly fail if the tide turns against you; and yet

this government is visibly losing the battle on two very important

fronts, and a country that loses this battle will never be a

successful country.

South Africa is losing the battle against poverty, and South Africa

is losing the battle against crime: two evils that share a symbiotic

relationship. Hon Jankielsohn, by making mention of but a few cases,
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 181 of 204)

has tried to present the trauma and despair that resounds from the

literally hundreds of letters from victims of crime that land on the

DA’s desk.

The contents of these letters, read together, tell a frightening

story about a gang-infested country where crime flourishes

uncontrolled. There have been continual serious complaints about the

lack of service delivery at many police stations and as a result

penetrating questions have been asked about police reliability and


I want to tell the Minister today that a police service that cannot

gain the trust and respect of the community cannot beat crime, and

does not pass the most basic test of a successful police service. We

have a police service that is tormented by a breach of trust with

regard to the clients they must serve on the one hand, and that are

increasingly becoming the victims of direct, arrogant attacks by

criminals, on the other hand.

We want to help you, Minister, because if we lose here we all lose

together. Do not avoid crime statistics any longer. We must be able

to set new targets for our police that they must strictly adhere to.

We want at least 150 000 active police members on the streets, who

must be paid good and competitive salaries and for whom merit and

good service mean promotion.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 182 of 204)

Remove political considerations from police decisions. Let the

demography in the police station resemble the community it serves

and let the police speak the language of the surrounding community.

Methods must be found to compensate the public for the astronomical

cost of fighting crime, and victims of crime must receive physical

and spiritual assistance.

The destruction of commandos did indeed cause very serious

deficiencies in the safety network. Farm murders are on the increase

again. Just this week we had the extremely violent murder of the Van

Tonders in Bethlehem.

Please look at the DA’s plan for rural safety, Minister, and

establish a specialist section for border and rural safety, as we

explained in our submission to you. Every newspaper, every news

report, every personal conversation, every day – it’s just crime,

murder, homicide.

Our nation is becoming numbed by the trauma and sorrow, and the hon

member Van Wyk actually tells us that she does not understand my hon

colleague Jankielsohn’s sympathy. I can only understand your

contempt and indignation with regard to hon Jankielsohn quoting

crime victims’ cries of distress if it means that either you have

not received such letters yourself, or you have no sympathy with the

victims of crime. [Interjections.]
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 183 of 204)

Then I think it truly is your duty to tell Parliament where your

sympathy lies if it is not with the victims. [Interjections.] And do

you really expect us in the DA to forsake the victims of crime? The

writing is on the wall, Minister. You cannot actually throw your

arms in the air and ignore your responsibilities, as you did last

year. Something very drastic must be done before this tide will

turn. [Interjections.]]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon members, please, I am

battling to hear the speaker, and I’m sure so are you. Please keep

your comments at a lower level, thank you.

Mnr R J KING: In belang van oorlewing, minister, doen iets, of gaan

in hemelsnaam na die President, en neem sommer u Adjunkminister

saam, en versoek hom om u te onthef en te vervang met ‘n minister

wat die misdadigers aan die strot kan gryp en Suid-Afrika kan wegruk

van die afgrond van selfvernietiging. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Die oorgrote meerderheid van ons polisiemanne en -vroue is lojale,

hardwerkende en eerlike beamptes wat onder uiters moeilike

omstandighede hul werk verrig. Die DA bring hulde aan hulle, ons eer

julle en assosieer ons graag met julle en ons salueer julle. Doen

asseblief so voort, ons land kan nie sonder u klaarkom nie. Baie

dankie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 184 of 204)

[Mr R J KING: In the interest of survival, Minister, do something,

or in heaven’s name go to the President, and take your Deputy

Minister along with you, and request him to discharge you and

replace you with a Minister who can grab the criminals by the throat

and wrest South Africa from the abyss of self-destruction.


The great majority of our policemen and policewomen are loyal, hard-

working and honest officials who work under very difficult

circumstances. The DA pays tribute to them. We honour you and we

willingly associate ourselves with you and we salute you. Please

continue in this vein; our country cannot manage without you. Thank

you very much. [Applause.]]

Mr M S BOOI: Madam Chair, hon Minister, our good policemen and

policewomen, the chairperson of our committee, I’m definitely sure

that we need to do some good work today in order for us to give some

perspective on the issues that have been raised. These issues are

not new and they are not issues that we don’t know of. They are

issues that as South Africans, it is important that we talk to one

another about.

As one of the members has said, it is important that we don’t talk

and politicise issues that are related to crime. But, as always, we,

in the ANC, ask: How honest are you? How prepared are you to assist

us to fight the battle against crime committed by those, whom
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 185 of 204)

nobody, even the Minister of Safety and Security, have asked to

commit such brutal murders. Nobody here has done so.

It is within that context that we are saying that the police are

doing a very good job. They are also human and also have families,

and are quite committed, as South Africans, to helping us to combat

crime. As they are seated here wearing their uniforms, they are not

asleep. They are quite active for 24 hours, listening to everybody,

taking up every other complaint.

It becomes very difficult when politicians come here and start

spitting fire, generalising and hitting hard at other human beings,

who have decided to take upon themselves the responsibility of

protecting us. As South Africans and as the different political

parties, we should really feel that we sometimes do have a

responsibility to praise them and to stand with them.

We don’t want to do that in the ANC, but the type of role we have

played in society is known. And that is the type of role we are

going to be able to stick to as we continue explaining and

enunciating the policies that we think are the challenges that

confront the police themselves. [Interjections.]

I’ve said to the hon Jankielsohn, during committee meetings, that I

do not dispute that many people write letters and I do not have a

problem with that. It’s very important for any public representative
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 186 of 204)

to receive letters and for them to interact with the communities.

That is our responsibility.

From the type of analysis that he gives and the type of anonymous

letters that he reads out, which are not contextualised, you can’t

tell whether it is his party members or family members that are

writing these letters. They leave us with a lot of suspicion. And we

are saying, be genuine, tell South Africans that “I received a

letter, because I work in Crossroads, in which the residents of Ward

36, Crossroads, are complaining about the police.” I would then

listen to you. I have no problem with you doing that. But when you

come to this platform and say that you are a messiah, and want to

create the impression that you are the only one who can solve the

crisis around crime, then you are creating a problem for all of us.

Firstly, you are not basing it on policy and, secondly, you are not

basing your statement on the issues confronting the police. Thirdly,

you don’t say to the police: These are the things that you are doing

and this is what you are not able to do well.

These policemen are available to listen to anybody. That is the

reason the plan that has been outlined by the Minister says: Let’s

transfer the managerial structure from the national level and take

it down to the station level.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 187 of 204)

The plan shows a clear understanding of issues. And more than that,

we are bound by the Constitution to continue exposing ourselves to

communities, and this is what the Minister is outlining. Both

speakers from the DA showed no appreciation of the situation. They

don’t care what the Minister is saying, that this is progressive

policy and that these are the things that we are fighting over.

The ANC introduced the Community Police Forums and now it says: Let

us take the powers away from the national level and continue

strengthening police stations. Lets take the resources away from the

national level and continue putting them in the stations where the

communities are, so that you are able, as a Member of Parliament, as

a councillor and as a community forum person to interact with the

police and be seen as a responsible South African.

That is transformation and that is good, but they don’t talk about

it. They talk about letter-writing; love letters that they receive

from different people that you can’t account for.

You should be able to say to the chairperson that concerning the

monitoring work that you are doing, as a Member of Parliament, these

are the issues that you are confronted with. However, that is not

happening here. Now, we are left wondering, as the ANC, what it is

that we need to do? How do we come to the rescue of the other hon

member, because we treat him as an honourable member. We want to
1 JUNE 2006           PAGE 188 of 204)

work with him, but if he is not responsible in front of the public

here, it then creates a particular problem.

Hon Groenewald, you and I are on the defence committee, and I’ve

made this point to you before, and I’m going to make it again. Maybe

it will explain why I think we might be involved in an ideological

battle here. [Interjections.]

The point is, you come here and you argue about private security

companies. After we had presented the antimercenary Bill a private

security company, Omega, was accused of planning a coup in the DRC.

[Interjections.] We looked into that. [Interjections.]

Let’s look at the private security industry. [Interjections.] I’m

coming to you. I’m telling you the truth. We allowed ADT, a private

security company, to continue gathering information in our country,

but urged them to work with the people in the country. Today they do

not even respect the labour market and our labour laws. They do not

even assist us.

Now, you ask yourself: Is there someone on a counter-revolutionary

path here, or are these just actions of innocent people? Now, you

are saying to me that private security companies are trustworthier

in fighting crime than the structures of government. You must

explain that to me.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 189 of 204)

I know for sure that there are private security companies that are

there at the airport at this particular moment, that stake out for

information, sift through it every day and horde it, without even

sharing it with NIA and the different institutional structures that

have been created in the country. Now, you want me to entrust those

private security companies with the responsibility for the security

of South Africans? [Interjections.] I am saying that is very


That explains that you do have a problem, or you are saying to us

that these private security companies are not playing a genuine role

within our country. Their aim is not to help state institutions,

because they go against governments and they prove continuously that

their role within the African continent is not a genuine one.

The President of the country, Comrade Mbeki, plays a particular role

of trying to unite all of the African countries. However, the

private security companies that today you say are helping in

fighting crime are the ones that are destabilising African

countries. [Interjections.] In this day and age - I’m not talking

about before the 80s - they assist in destabilising countries. And

you want to say to me, today, that South Africans should trust those

private security companies?
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 190 of 204)

They are not trustworthy, and I will continually say to you that

what you have presented here is not factually correct. It is

something that you are thumb-sucking from somewhere else.

Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, is the hon member willing to take a

question? It will be a very easy question. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member?

Mr M S BOOI: Let me proceed. I will give you another minute before I


Mr P J GROENEWALD: Does it mean you don’t want to answer an easy


Mr M S BOOI: The one important thing that the Deputy Minister has

said is that it would be very important for South Africans, when

they deal with issues of statistics, to use the statistics to

reflect reality on the ground. It’s not that the Minister or anyone

of us is afraid of dealing with statistics.

I want you to go and read Crime Quarterly, where it talks about the

limitations of statistics, and then compare and debate the two

presentations made by the two different institutions therein. At the

end of the day, what that analyst says is that the statistics that

you could be better able to relate to in the country today are only

the police statistics. They are correct and they are not
1 JUNE 2006          PAGE 191 of 204)

generalising, as you were doing here. [Interjections.] You came here

to explain ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon members, this is a debate

for general consumption and not for the two of you. So, please speak

through the Chair.

Mr M S BOOI: Chair, it is not between him and me. I’m talking about

statistics. He said that of the statistics from MRC and SAPS, the

correct statistics, and which have continuously been proven so, are

the ones from SAPS, even in relation to the ages of people and to

death in South Africa. He said these are the correct statistics that

you could make use of.

But what the Deputy Minister says is that we should not stick to

statistics, because they are not correct when you want to deal with

the number of dead people. The hon member says that this is what the

police are supposed to be doing. She says: let’s continue finding

solutions and to engage on these matters.

Hon Jankielsohn presented some statistics here, yet there was no

clarity as to where those statistics came from and how they are

going to benefit people. They aren’t beneficial to any of us, even

if I, as the one who was listening to you, would want to make use of

them. [Interjections.]
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 192 of 204)

Even when we have a workshop, I’m always prepared, but it’s not

about you. Overall, hon Jankielsohn, the challenge that we are

confronted with, as the ANC, is that as South Africans, the progress

that has been made with regard to policing in the past 10 to 12

years is supposed to be really commendable.

We have been able to allocate resources continuously, even in the

face of the few resources that we have. If you were listening

carefully to the Minister, the way you gave powers to detectives in

the past was haphazard, and nobody cared about them. Today they have

offices and they do know that at least they have so many cases to

follow up, etc.

The problem is that you are generalising; you say that crime is

going up, and you can’t explain to us what type of crimes you are

talking about. It is this generalisation that is creating the


Nobody disputes that tomorrow morning I’ll get a report of a murder

committed, on the first pages of newspapers. Nobody feels proud of

that, and no South African ever will. But what we are saying is:

What do you do as a South African? How do you try to help all of us,

including the police, combat crime, if you do not pinpoint the crime

you are talking about?
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 193 of 204)

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, your speaking time

has expired.

Mr M S BOOI: We sit here discussing campaigns to fight rape, and we

point out that these are the challenges that we are confronted with.

Thank you. [Time Expired.] ... [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Deputy Chairperson, one of the

things that I hated with a passion when I was growing up was being

patronised. I still hate being patronised! And, the police hate

being patronised. Just listen to the hon King. He stands here, and

everything he said is against the police. And when he leaves the

podium he says, ``these are people we can work with, I love them’’.

That is patronising and it is disgusting in the extreme. [Applause.]

There is something I want to deal with here, and I hope they are

going to listen very carefully. When you are a politician, you must

be able to read the signs. You must be able therefore to understand

what is happening in the body politic of the country where you are.

There were 17 speakers here - apart from the Deputy Minister and I -

and the great majority of those speakers spoke very well in support

of the police service.

But who did not do that? It is someone who is called hon R

Jankielsohn. It is someone who is called hon P J Groenewald. It is

someone who is called hon R J King. Those are the only people who

have spoken against the police, essentially. Of course, we
1 JUNE 2006            PAGE 194 of 204)

understand why they do this. Anthony Al Bekker explains their

situation in an article in the Sunday Times:

 It’s possible then that the overall decline in some crimes, notably

 murder, obscures an increase in crimes committed in the communities

 in which my friends live. Since most of them are middle class and

 white and live in the suburbs, if victimisation rates of people in

 that demographic are rising, my friends’ increased fearfulness is

 perfectly understandable.

He goes on and says:

 What seems clear is that violent crime in the suburbs, especially

 robbery, is much more common than it was in the 1980s and early

 1990s, largely because apartheid ensured that its beneficiaries

 enjoyed a degree of insulation from predatory criminals.

There is someone else who understands their situation. And this is

Clive Swan of Bonaero Park in Kempton Park who says:

 We seem to have become a nation of whingers, sending our offspring

 to seek paler climates as soon as they graduate. The US have

 traversed a crippling economic depression, unbelievable crime waves

 of gangster warfare in the 1920s, followed later by decades of

 mafia outrages. If they had followed our hand-wringing ethos, most

 of their population would have emigrated, but instead warts and
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 195 of 204)

 all, they patriotically rolled up their sleeves and took charge of

 their country’s destiny. For goodness sake, South Africans get a

 life, get away from the negative call to skin colour attitudes.

 Join hands and make this country great. Then maybe your kids can

 come home to a bigot-free zone.


Mr Jankielsohn has said certain things here, and I want to help him.

It is our responsibility to help people who do not understand what

we are doing in this country. Mr Jankielsohn is unhappy about the

fact that the President has asked me to help the people of Burundi

to overcome their difficulties. He says I must be here and fight

crime. I thought that my responsibility was political and that those

people over there and in the streets, as we speak, are fighting

crime at the coalface of the problems that we have. But he can’t

understand this. Firstly, the ANC has always been an

internationalist organisation. And that being so, we have learnt to

know the world as it is.

It is not you fault, hon Jankielsohn, that your own vision of the

world is South Africa and ends in Zimbabwe. [Applause.] The fault is

with your party that is not teaching you people to understand

politics. A wise president would of course deploy a Minister of

Safety and Security in his country to be proactive. You stop people

who otherwise would flow into South Africa as a consequence of
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 196 of 204)

problems in their own countries from coming here. And what you then

do is that you are deployed to deal with those situations,

particularly because our own vision for the advancement of this

country is peace and stability on the basis of one of the Freedom

Charter’s clauses which says: ``There shall be peace and


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S BOTHA): Order! Hon members, please

keep the noise levels down. You may proceed, hon Minister.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: I am sorry, Deputy Chairperson

that you were going to be extended in trying to keep them in check,

but this is the only thing they best know and I think that they must

be allowed to continue to do it.

In terms of the Freedom Charter, we are enjoined to help stop

problems in the countries, particularly those that are part of the

African continent. Our vision of peace and stability has as one of

its key elements safety and security. Therefore, if you allow masses

of people to emigrate from their own countries because there are

conflicts and when they arrive here there is no work for them, then

there is a problem there. If there is not going to be accommodation

for them, then there are problems there. If there is not going to be

food for them, then there are problems there. And if you don’t

understand therefore that the only resort they will have is crime,

then my goodness, we have a bigger problem than I thought we had. Of
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 197 of 204)

course you won’t understand this because you don’t have a policy

that deals with matters like that.

Again, somebody from their ranks came here and told a lie about

police salaries. What a big lie! For goodness sake, these things are

public. Just go to the records and you will find these answers. A

police constable’s salary is R67 000 per annum. Go and check. These

figures are available. Don’t come here and lie. Don’t do that.

Again, my other friend, the hon King, policing in South Africa must

not be politicised. The hon Sotyu said that, the hon Ndlovu said

that, the hon Van Wyk said that, the Deputy Minister said that, Mr

Madikiza said that, hon Moatshe said that. All of these persons were

all saying, let’s help the police because this is not an ANC

government structure, but it is a structure for all our people. As

the hon Likotsi was saying ``to protect our people, let’s all come

and help’’. [Applause.]

But what do they do? They go into politics about policing, including

Mr Jankielsohn who says he gets letters and that there is a

particular sergeant who came to him and said, “I am not getting any

promotion as a consequence of the racism in the police”. You know,

Mr Jankielsohn, I don’t know what the unions think about the

position that you have assigned to yourself as their spokesperson.

[Laughter.] There are members here from the unions – Popcru and Sapu

- that are working in the police. But what do we deal with all the
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 198 of 204)

time? Even during question time, they ask me: Will you indicate why

so and so has not as yet received his retirement money? Why so and

so has not been promoted? Those are matters for the unions, and if

you believe that the unions are not equal to that task, I tell you

as a person who works there with them, that they are equal to that


Regarding the many things that you people come and talk about here,

that this restructuring is negative and what have you, I am going to

tell you what one person from Popcru said the other day. He said,

“Minister, we support the restructuring that is happening in the

police because it will make things much better for our people

because service delivery will be assured.” The hon Ndlovu has said

the same thing and many others here have done the same. He said,

“The problem that you are confronting is a problem of people who are

in comfort zones and do not want to leave those comfort zones.”


Of course, they have support from the hon members on that side of

the House. Therefore every time they come to them they speak with

authority on things that they don’t even understand. They will not

understand these things because they don’t have policies. Or do they

have policies? No, they have policies. What they do is that when we

come here and place the strategies of our Ministry and the police

before the House, two or three years later they regurgitate those

same things and say, “Here is our policy”. So they do have policies.
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 199 of 204)

The fact that their policies come two or three years later all the

time has nothing to do with us. It is their problem. It is not our


You talked about racism in the police. I think you will be in

trouble one time. There are many, many black police officers who

have been constables for a long time, not as sergeants that you

talked about. They have been constables for a long time. They want

promotion. If you go to the next level you will find a broad band of

black officers who want promotion. Of course, you are not bothered

about them. You are bothered about the sergeant who wrote you a

letter. That’s the person you are bothered about. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order, please, hon members!

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: To the members who spoke on

behalf of our people who solely require protection from the police,

I want to give this report. There is someone who spoke here about

police officers who become criminals. I have said this in the past;

my predecessors, Steve Tshwete and Sydney Mufamadi also said it in

the past, that those people in effect are not police persons,

because the person who becomes and is registered as a police

official is a peace officer. Their function is to ensure that they

create conditions for peace and security in our country. Those are

police officers. Those who become criminals get arrested and locked
1 JUNE 2006         PAGE 200 of 204)

up. There are a number of them who are serving long terms of

imprisonment as a result of criminality.

On 24 May there were people who went to Benoni police station and

broke into a safe there that contained money. That is money that had

been taken from crooks who robbed an aircraft that was coming into

the country. We arrested those people and we continue to investigate

that case. But the money that was retrieved had been locked away in

that particular safe. Of course, we have arrested people with

respect to the theft of that money from the Benoni police station.

We have arrested nine suspects. Three of them are members of the

police. We recovered some money but I won’t tell you how much. There

are further investigations that are happening.

Those people, every one of them who was involved in this theft, are

going to be arrested by the police. They do not belong to this

country where we are defining circumstances for our people to live

in peace and security. They do not belong to that effort in which,

collectively, all our people are involved to ensure that indeed, in

the end, we shall have put in place, in South Africa, a programme so

that all our people can benefit. Those who are therefore undermining

that programme are people we are going to deal with.

Of course, there are those whom we are unable to deal with because

essentially they are not committing any crime. So those can continue

to whinge away. They can continue to attack everything that we do.
1 JUNE 2006           PAGE 201 of 204)

They can continue to be as negative as they want. In the end, it is

the many people out there, who for many years have been crying for

peace and stability in South Africa, who determine who rules this

country. The whingers can do one of two things: They can continue to

whinge until they are blue in the face and they can continue to be

as negative as they want to, or they can simply leave this country

so that all of the peace-loving South Africans, good South African

people who want to make this a successful country, continue with

their work.

As Clive Swan said:

 For goodness sake, South Africans, get a life! Get away from the

 negative call to skin colour attitudes. Join hands and make this

 country great. Then, maybe your kids can come home to a bigot-free

 zone. Thank you very much.


Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 19:13.


1 JUNE 2006                  PAGE 202 of 204)


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1.   Classification of Bill by Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)

     (1)   The JTM has reconsidered the classification of the Deeds Registries Amendment Bill [B 5

           – 2006], and has, on 31 May 2006, in terms of Joint Rule 160(3) classified it as a section

           75 Bill (original classification, see Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, 19

           May 2006, p 725).

2.   Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

     (1)   Repeal of the Black Administration Act and Amendment of Certain Laws Amendment

           Bill, 2006, submitted by the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development on 1

           June 2006. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional

           Development and the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs.

3.   Introduction of Bills

     (1)   The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development
1 JUNE 2006                 PAGE 203 of 204)

          (a)   Repeal of the Black Administration Act and Amendment of Certain Laws

                Amendment Bill [B 11 – 2006] (National Assembly – sec 75) [Explanatory

                summary of Bill and prior notice of its introduction published in Government

                Gazette No 28898 of 31 May 2006.]

          Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional

          Development of the National Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging

          Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on 1 June 2006.

          In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of the Bill may be submitted

          to the JTM within three parliamentary working days.


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1.   The Speaker and the Chairperson

     (a) Activity Report of the Auditor-General for 2004-2005 [RP 231-2005].


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

CREDA INSERT REPORT - T060601e-insert1 – PAGES – 963-1046

National Assembly
1 JUNE 2006            PAGE 204 of 204)

CREDA INSERT REPORT - T060601e-insert2 – PAGES 1047-1092

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